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jjenny
04-10-2010, 06:19 PM
I believe the civil right in question is the right to an education, free from fear for physical safety, free from harassment

I think we would all like to feel free from fear for our physical safety, but is that our civil right?

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 06:21 PM
I think we would all like to feel free from fear for our physical safety, but is that our civil right?

In a school? Yes, I absolutely DO believe it is our right.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 06:22 PM
Have you experienced suicide within your own friends/family? I hope not, but I ask because I have, unfortunately, several times. The bottom line is that the person who does so is in pain and wants release from it. They do believe they are worthless and unimportant enough to live. I do not need Wikipedia to define it for me. I have had professionals educate me.

imvho
some know only too well...*HUGS*

jjenny
04-10-2010, 06:22 PM
In a school? Yes, I absolutely DO believe it is our right.
But if I go out in not the safest area of town, it's not?

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 06:24 PM
But if I go out in not the safest area of town, it's not?

I never said it wasn't. I'm talking about this specific case. But yes, it is your right to feel safe and not be harassed and stalked.

MaureenN
04-10-2010, 06:24 PM
I think it's a safe bet they would not be charged with these things if she did not kill herself.
So, in reality, aren't they really charged because of her suicide?

I think that the suicide pushed it to the point that they couldn't ignore it anymore.

But, the suicide does not play into the charges at all. The prosecution isn't out to prove that they caused her death or suicide. They are out to prove that they criminally harassed her, etc. And, if they are proven guilty, they will not be given sentences for murder, they will be sentenced to punishments for the things that they are proven guilty of doing.

jjenny
04-10-2010, 06:27 PM
I think that the suicide pushed it to the point that they couldn't ignore it anymore.

But, the suicide does not play into the charges at all. The prosecution isn't out to prove that they caused her death or suicide. They are out to prove that they criminally harassed her, etc. And, if they are proven guilty, they will not be given sentences for murder, they will be sentenced to punishments for the things that they are proven guilty of doing.

Right, suicide is just an elephant in the room.

OrdinaryLife
04-10-2010, 06:29 PM
some know only too well...*HUGS*

Life experiences tend to humble you for the arrogance sometimes you carry regarding a fixed position of thought and educate you for more empathy/compassion that another deserves. :)

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 06:33 PM
I think it's a safe bet they would not be charged with these things if she did not kill herself.
So, in reality, aren't they really charged because of her suicide?

I am not up to date with American Law(or any laws if I am being honest) but one of my friends daughters had been bullied physically and on bebo and the police got involved (albeit slowly). They requested the relevant information from bebo and received it quite quickly, the girls had been posting threats on it. The case has not been in court as yet but they are confident that they will prosecute successfully. The police have actually been really supportive of her and were appalled at these girls behaviour.
While my friends daughter went through a very rough time I have to say that, going on docs released recently, it was nowhere near as traumatic as Phoebe's case, particularly as she had some good friends at school, just a couple, but they were friends that she had had for a number of years and she wasn't the new kid at school. These are some factors that made her an easy target for the bullies, she had no real support network in school. She cant have known any of her friends in the US for very long so they had no real strong bond, well not strong enough perhaps to stand up to the "popular" or tough kids.

MaureenN
04-10-2010, 06:34 PM
I think we would all like to feel free from fear for our physical safety, but is that our civil right?

The civil right is the right to attend school, to receive an education. http://ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/index.html

I guess the 'free from fear for physical safety' is assumed in that.

OrdinaryLife
04-10-2010, 06:35 PM
Right, suicide is just an elephant in the room.

I'm sorry, but do you understand the point that the reason LE and the DA are doing this is because Ms Prince was *bullied* to the point of suicide?

Where's the "elephant"?

jjenny
04-10-2010, 06:38 PM
I'm sorry, but do you understand the point that the reason LE and the DA are doing this is because Ms Prince was *bullied* to the point of suicide?

Where's the "elephant"?

I guess we can go on and on and circles but I was responding to a post which stated that suicide did not play into the charges.

MaureenN
04-10-2010, 06:43 PM
I'm sorry, but do you understand the point that the reason LE and the DA are doing this is because Ms Prince was *bullied* to the point of suicide?

Where's the "elephant"?

I don't know that I agree. Or, maybe it's just a matter of semantics.

From what I've read of the charges, they don't accuse the defendants of causing her death. They use the suicide as a means to show the extent of the effect that their harassment had on the victim. But, the charges themselves and any potential punishment are not 'murder' or 'caused death'.

Even without the suicide, criminal harassment is illegal. Civil rights violations are illegal. Stalking is illegal. And, those are the things that they are being charged with.

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 06:46 PM
I don't know that I agree. Or, maybe it's just a matter of semantics.

From what I've read of the charges, they don't accuse the defendants of causing her death. They use the suicide as a means to show the extent of the effect that their harassment had on the victim. But, the charges themselves and any potential punishment are not 'murder' or 'caused death'.

Even without the suicide, criminal harassment is illegal. Civil rights violations are illegal. Stalking is illegal. And, those are the things that they are being charged with.

So would her suicide then be considered evidence? Or will it not even be mentioned at the trial?

OrdinaryLife
04-10-2010, 06:50 PM
I don't know that I agree. Or, maybe it's just a matter of semantics.

From what I've read of the charges, they don't accuse the defendants of causing her death. They use the suicide as a means to show the extent of the effect that their harassment had on the victim. But, the charges themselves and any potential punishment are not 'murder' or 'caused death'.

Even without the suicide, criminal harassment is illegal. Civil rights violations are illegal. Stalking is illegal. And, those are the things that they are being charged with.

Perhaps the word, "semantics", covers it. The point of all these charges against this group is due to the bullying behaviour. Not just calling someone names, but the verbal/physical abuse that Ms Prince endured and where it led. No, they will not be charged for her suicide, but they will for their severe abusive behaviour. I do not see the elephant in the room. Frankly, when it is put that way, I find it demeans the actions of others that caused Ms Prince to believe there was no way out. She was pushed over the edge. I do not think it should be made smaller in such a term than it is. But, that is my opinion. :)

Paladine
04-10-2010, 06:57 PM
So would her suicide then be considered evidence? Or will it not even be mentioned at the trial?
It's in the statement of facts, so I assume they intend to present evidence relating to it. Isn't the bodily harm the suicide? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 07:09 PM
http://twitpic.com/113nq6
I think this is a new one I haven't seen it on any other sites..

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 07:17 PM
It's in the statement of facts, so I assume they intend to present evidence relating to it. Isn't the bodily harm the suicide? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

My thoughts would be that they have enough evidence to prosecute with witness statements etc. (not sure this would be admissible, defence would have argument that it is not relevant to charges and could be related to other factors)and that maybe they will only refer to the suicide when/if they convict for, sentencing purposes i.e. victim impact .

Again def no expert just my opinion.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 07:40 PM
My thoughts would be that they have enough evidence to prosecute with witness statements etc. (not sure this would be admissible, defence would have argument that it is not relevant to charges and could be related to other factors)and that maybe they will only refer to the suicide when/if they convict for, sentencing purposes i.e. victim impact .

Again def no expert just my opinion.
Thanks, Andy, you make some very good points. Can you imagine the victim impact portion? Whoa.

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 07:46 PM
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-431115

Just came across this...

jjenny
04-10-2010, 08:03 PM
I don't think even DA has made some of these allegations.

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 08:07 PM
It will probably be taken down once it has been vetted

Cyan
04-10-2010, 08:15 PM
Ive been commenting on that story on CNN off and on all day. I mentioned how I was bullied when I was younger and hit on my previous post earlier that the majority of those bullied don't commit suicide.

After reading some of the responses that adults have posted to that, it's plain to see why children act this way.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 08:16 PM
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-431115

Just came across this...

thank you for that - very interesting read.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 08:17 PM
This is something I've been wondering too. What is is about that last day or week that made them really turn up the heat

Could it be that they were intent on keeping her from going to that dance? There was that supposed "friend" of Phoebe's that made an insult and threat ~4 days before. Wasn't that threat about how Phoebe would get it if she tried to get with her man at the dance (I may have managed what I am remembering badly).

It just struck me that an increase in intensity like this may have been aimed at scaring her away from the dance.

jjenny
04-10-2010, 08:18 PM
Ive been commenting on that story on CNN off and on all day. I mentioned how I was bullied when I was younger and hit on my previous post earlier that the majority of those bullied don't commit suicide.

After reading some of the responses that adults have posted to that, it's plain to see why children act this way.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 08:19 PM
Noticed on one of her "friends" formsprings that she blames Kayla for Sean's involvement saying something along the lines that when people are in relationships they sometimes act out of character for that person because they are blinded, please note these were not exact words but she has taken down her formspring since yesterday so I cannot copy and paste.
I think the questions were getting a little too difficult ( I have a feeling that Sauerkraut may have been behind those questions).
Also a few days ago I did come across a photo link of her which was taken by the same friend, will try to find link.

I noticed that too. I had screen capped a lot of what she had said about Phoebe but didn't get the last few questions. She also said that she didn't know about Sean's involvement in the library or something to that effect.

I have seen her twitter and she previously deleted her formspring then ended up bringing it back so it may pop back up eventually. We'll just have to keep a look out.

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 08:20 PM
I haven't seen any documents relating to Sean and Austen maybe there is more reference in those?

jjenny
04-10-2010, 08:20 PM
Could it be that they were intent on keeping her from going to that dance? There was that supposed "friend" of Phoebe's that made an insult and threat ~4 days before. Wasn't that threat about how Phoebe would get it if she tried to get with her man at the dance (I may have managed what I am remembering badly).

It just struck me that an increase in intensity like this may have been aimed at scaring her away from the dance.

But the boy had already invited her to the dance, I didn't see any reports that there were any objections to that.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 08:23 PM
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-431115

Just came across this...

That sounds kind of out there, especially the part where the author says she was pressured into sex to stop the bullying...

I don't buy some random person on the 'net having info like that and it not spreading like crazy.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 08:25 PM
But the boy had already invited her to the dance, I didn't see any reports that there were any objections to that.

No objections to him going with her, but they were on such a tear of tormenting her that this big dance might make a "goal" for them to drive her from. Just because it was coming up.

Basically I'm just speculating as to why the sudden surge in abuse towards her.

Cyan
04-10-2010, 08:26 PM
Paraphrased : I explain my situation with being bullied, say that there were alternatives.

A: How the f*** does that compare?
Ds: Seriously who cares. I bet everyone hated you for a reason.
Ds: I think the fact that ppl hated you for 5 yrs says enough.

And some people want to point fingers only at the kids who taunted her and at parents... These people are strangers and this is how I was treated.

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 08:29 PM
That sounds kind of out there, especially the part where the author says she was pressured into sex to stop the bullying...

I don't buy some random person on the 'net having info like that and it not spreading like crazy.


It was only posted about 20 mins ago, it is a pretty provocative "report", I don't think it will stay there long.

Cyan
04-10-2010, 08:30 PM
But the boy had already invited her to the dance, I didn't see any reports that there were any objections to that.

If I were being tormented on a level that drove me to such dark despair, I certainly wouldn't want to voluntarily put myself in a place and position to be around my tormentors no matter how desperately I had wanted to make other friends and to enjoy myself.

Just a thought.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 08:30 PM
Could it be that they were intent on keeping her from going to that dance? There was that supposed "friend" of Phoebe's that made an insult and threat ~4 days before. Wasn't that threat about how Phoebe would get it if she tried to get with her man at the dance (I may have managed what I am remembering badly).

It just struck me that an increase in intensity like this may have been aimed at scaring her away from the dance.

yes I've thought that too, although apparently she had a date for the dance and at this point most likely wanted absolutely nothing to do with either of those boys but I guess try telling that to those girls :rolleyes: I imagine if she did go to that dance it would have ended up being a Big Deal and she most likely would have been harassed there as well.

Probably also has to do with the fling with Austin coming out as well., as Paladine pointed out. I guess if that happened toward the middle/end of December the girls might have just found out about it when they got back to school and that's what caused the overbearing harassment.

ugh...rage

jjenny
04-10-2010, 08:31 PM
No objections to him going with her, but they were on such a tear of tormenting her that this big dance might make a "goal" for them to drive her from. Just because it was coming up.

Basically I'm just speculating as to why the sudden surge in abuse towards her.

You think they were hoping she would not show up at the dance?

jjenny
04-10-2010, 08:33 PM
If I were being tormented on a level that drove me to such dark despair, I certainly wouldn't want to voluntarily put myself in a place and position to be around my tormentors no matter how desperately I had wanted to make other friends and to enjoy myself.

Just a thought.

That's the thing, it was reported she had already gotten a dress to go to this dance and discussed arrangements for transportation so this suicide does not sound like something planned for some time before it happened.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 08:37 PM
You think they were hoping she would not show up at the dance?

It was just an idle thought in regards to why it suddenly got so much worse. The dance was coming up, so it made a simple target for them to shoot for. Remembering that tweet/post making a threat about her at the dance is what triggered it.

Cyan
04-10-2010, 08:42 PM
That's the thing, it was reported she had already gotten a dress to go to this dance and discussed arrangements for transportation so this suicide does not sound like something planned for some time before it happened.

I agree, but I still don't know many people who would WANT to go some place that they knew their tormentors would be. She may have just wanted to go to enjoy herself, but it honestly doesn't make a lot of sense. She had the opportunity to avoid them and was possibly planning to go somewhere they were most likely going to be.

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 08:43 PM
You think they were hoping she would not show up at the dance?

It makes sense if they were jealous of her, they probably wouldn't like to see her there especially at an occasion where she would be dressed up and looking even prettier than usual just in case she caught any of their "mens" eyes, they must have felt threatened by her on that level. Had she been a less attractive girl they may not have felt the need to keep it going for so long. JMO(just found out what that means so using it all the time now)

Laurence
04-10-2010, 08:43 PM
yes I've thought that too, although apparently she had a date for the dance and at this point most likely wanted absolutely nothing to do with either of those boys but I guess try telling that to those girls :rolleyes: I imagine if she did go to that dance it would have ended up being a Big Deal and she most likely would have been harassed there as well.

Probably also has to do with the fling with Austin coming out as well., as Paladine pointed out. I guess if that happened toward the middle/end of December the girls might have just found out about it when they got back to school and that's what caused the overbearing harassment.

ugh...rage

Like I mentioned in another reply just now, it was an idle thought that the dance make a nice target for torturing her. If she doesn't show, they get to gloat more.

If she had, I have no doubt they'd have made it hell for her there.

The Austin thing is likely a root reason for the second groups behavior in January. It may be that it just took them the two weeks to really work up to it.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 08:50 PM
That's the thing, it was reported she had already gotten a dress to go to this dance and discussed arrangements for transportation so this suicide does not sound like something planned for some time before it happened.

I think it was an impulsive, despairing decision made while she was home alone that afternoon.

I think what is truely bothering me so much is that she most likely could have been talked out of it if any one of the legions of people who have been captivated by this story could pop back in time and talk to her just before she went inside.

At least that's what bugs me the most. The horrible bullying, the insults, abuse... that's all terrible, but to my mind, untrained and inexperienced in dealing with stuff like this, the worst part of her story is just how alone she must have felt.:cry:

thebear14
04-10-2010, 08:54 PM
Like I mentioned in another reply just now, it was an idle thought that the dance make a nice target for torturing her. If she doesn't show, they get to gloat more.

If she had, I have no doubt they'd have made it hell for her there.

The Austin thing is likely a root reason for the second groups behavior in January. It may be that it just took them the two weeks to really work up to it.

From AndyRyan: It makes sense if they were jealous of her, they probably wouldn't like to see her there especially at an occasion where she would be dressed up and looking even prettier than usual just in case she caught any of their "mens" eyes, they must have felt threatened by her on that level

Definitely. I'm sure she would be unwanted at that dance and it may very well be that some of that increased harassment was due to them not wanting her to go. I believe it was only a few days before she died that she bought a dress and shoes for the dance and from what I've read she had plans to talk on the phone with her date that night so I agree I don't think she planned on killing herself that day. I think the culmination of the whole week and especially that day just got to her.

As for why she would want to go...honestly if I were in her shoes I most likely wouldn't want to go knowing I would have to deal with those girls. But then again, even though I went to dances and proms and such, they were never my really my cup of tea. She probably did just want to and get out and have fun, she had a cute dress and shoes and a date and maybe hoped the girls would be preoccupied and not worry about harassing her that night. I would say that there would be teachers and parents around most likely as well to prevent anything from happening but, we see how well that turned out during school hours :rolleyes:

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 09:04 PM
I think it was an impulsive, despairing decision made while she was home alone that afternoon.

I think what is truely bothering me so much is that she most likely could have been talked out of it if any one of the legions of people who have been captivated by this story could pop back in time and talk to her just before she went inside.

At least that's what bugs me the most. The horrible bullying, the insults, abuse... that's all terrible, but to my mind, untrained and inexperienced in dealing with stuff like this, the worst part of her story is just how alone she must have felt.:cry:

I agree trying to put myself in her shoes I find it hard to imagine the humiliation, hurt and isolation she must of felt on that walk home after the day she had experienced and she was only 15, a mere child. If my co-workers treated me like that today I would be absolutely gutted and if they did it for 3 months I honestly do not know how I would deal with it. It really galls me when people say that she should have been able to cope and that other people have been bullied and came out the other side etc. etc.
She sounds like she was a very sensitive, gentle person which is the way i think everyone should be, was it her fault that there are cruel awful people in the world and that because of her lack of hardness she couldn't defend herself? Its like people are saying that we all need to become hard and accept this atrocious behaviour or we are lacking. Since when is it wrong to be nice?

thebear14
04-10-2010, 09:05 PM
I think it was an impulsive, despairing decision made while she was home alone that afternoon.

I think what is truely bothering me so much is that she most likely could have been talked out of it if any one of the legions of people who have been captivated by this story could pop back in time and talk to her just before she went inside.

At least that's what bugs me the most. The horrible bullying, the insults, abuse... that's all terrible, but to my mind, untrained and inexperienced in dealing with stuff like this, the worst part of her story is just how alone she must have felt.:cry:

I feel exactly the same way. I'm only 8 years older than she was, not a mom or even a big sister to anyone. I just want to go back in time, even though I didn't know her at all, and just like take her to the movies or mall and just help her to not feel so alone. It really doesn't seem like she planned this at all. Like you said, it was likely an impulsive, despairing decision.

I've taken quite a few sociology type classes and one theory that keeps coming to mind is The Looking Glass Theory - basically you begin to see yourself how others see you. I'm definitely not saying that this happens with everyone, so please don't start yelling at me. I even used to think it was kind of stupid until a few months ago when I had to do an exercise on it. We had to write about things that maybe other people had made fun of us for when we were younger, and what sort of things we feel self-conscious or whatever about today. I realized that a lot of the things that were said to me as a young kid shaped how I feel about myself today. One example is I started wearing glasses very early and used to get made fun of and called four-eyes and all that. Obviously now I think that's stupid but when you're 6 and already very shy it really sucks and hurts. Ever since I started wearing contacts 10 years ago I absolutely can't stand wearing glasses, hate how I look in them, and feel super self-conscious in them no matter how many people tell me they think glasses look good on me. When I put them on I'm instantly a 6 year old girl again even though I really don't think anybody at this point is seriously going to call me four eyes.

That's not the greatest example but it may be that these months of name-calling and whatnot ended up making Phoebe feel like she really was worthless and all these other names that people were calling her.

Or I may just be rambling on about nothing ;)

thebear14
04-10-2010, 09:13 PM
She sounds like she was a very sensitive, gentle person which is the way i think everyone should be, was it her fault that there are cruel awful people in the world and that because of her lack of hardness she couldn't defend herself? Its like people are saying that we all need to become hard and accept this atrocious behaviour or we are lacking. Since when is it wrong to be nice?

I agree so much. I myself and sensitive and not hard at all and I'll openly admit that. I recently had a situation while at college where I was being stalked and abused verbally and even physically once by a much older mentally unstable classmate. I tried getting help and when I went to the dean of the program I was in I was told that I should get used to that sort of behavior in the field I was going in and she couldn't understand why I was upset about any of it. She acted like my being upset by it was a problem and the behavior of my classmate was totally normal. Meanwhile I couldn't eat or sleep for that matter without using over the counter medication or ativan and still deal with it to this day.

there I go rambling again but I guess I'm just trying to say some of us are harder and some of us aren't and those who aren't really shouldn't be blamed when we start getting harassed. It's ridiculous. Others need to change their behavior, not the other way around. Oh and my situation started because I was "nice" to him. Gee, maybe I should just start being a total b to everyone I meet just in case they end up deciding to stalk me at a later time.

concentric
04-10-2010, 09:28 PM
I believe that Sean (is that the football player?) was genuinely attracted to Phoebe. Why wouldn't he be? She was a beautiful, intelligent and sensitive Irish girl, with that sweet Irish brogue. He was at least partially Irish American.

I believe it was the jealous reaction of the girls, and their pressuring him to abandon her that drove her to kill herself.

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 09:30 PM
I agree so much. I myself and sensitive and not hard at all and I'll openly admit that. I recently had a situation while at college where I was being stalked and abused verbally and even physically once by a much older mentally unstable classmate. I tried getting help and when I went to the dean of the program I was in I was told that I should get used to that sort of behavior in the field I was going in and she couldn't understand why I was upset about any of it. She acted like my being upset by it was a problem and the behavior of my classmate was totally normal. Meanwhile I couldn't eat or sleep for that matter without using over the counter medication or ativan and still deal with it to this day.

there I go rambling again but I guess I'm just trying to say some of us are harder and some of us aren't and those who aren't really shouldn't be blamed when we start getting harassed. It's ridiculous. Others need to change their behavior, not the other way around. Oh and my situation started because I was "nice" to him. Gee, maybe I should just start being a total b to everyone I meet just in case they end up deciding to stalk me at a later time.

Thats awful, is it because people can't be bothered to deal with a person who behaves badly and it is easier to just fob off the person who is being harassed
because that person probably won't be able to demand action being that they will most likely be of a gentle nature.
It's like another form of bullying.
I used to see it a lot at school with my sister, she was very attractive but very "soft" and naive she just couldn't protect herself at all and this went on for years, girls were so awful to her they used to hit her and say terrible things about her at every opportunity there was no let up, I used to have to threaten them to keep away from her and I am not tough like that but the anger from seeing it happen over and over again spurred me on. It was quite similar to Phoebe's situation in that there was different groups of girls doing it and they wouldn't have been known to each other, it was purely a jealousy thing and they knew she wouldnt stand up for herself so she was always a target. I can tell you she survived physically but it has had a huge impact on her life and now 10-15 years later she is receiving counselling for it.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 09:40 PM
I believe that Sean (is that the football player?) was genuinely attracted to Phoebe. Why wouldn't he be? She was a beautifu, intelligent and sensitive Irish girl. He was at least partially Irish American.

I believe it was the jealous reaction of the girls, and their pressuring him to abandon her that drove her to kill herself.

yes Sean was the football player and I do believe they may have had more of a dating relationship and that he may have been genuinely interested in her, even if it was just for physical reasons. I'm not positive about that but just from some things I've read that seems to be a plausible scenario.

I do believe the girls played the largest part, but unfortunately the relationships with the boys is what brought on the bullying. I just wish the boys would have stood up for her instead of joining in.

concentric
04-10-2010, 09:46 PM
This is precisely why I think that Phoebe needed an advocate in the school, especially since she was new to America.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 09:47 PM
Thats awful, is it because people can't be bothered to deal with a person who behaves badly and it is easier to just fob off the person who is being harassed
because that person probably won't be able to demand action being that they will most likely be of a gentle nature.
It's like another form of bullying.
I used to see it a lot at school with my sister, she was very attractive but very "soft" and naive she just couldn't protect herself at all and this went on for years, girls were so awful to her they used to hit her and say terrible things about her at every opportunity there was no let up, I used to have to threaten them to keep away from her and I am not tough like that but the anger from seeing it happen over and over again spurred me on. It was quite similar to Phoebe's situation in that there was different groups of girls doing it and they wouldn't have been known to each other, it was purely a jealousy thing and they knew she wouldnt stand up for herself so she was always a target. I can tell you she survived physically but it has had a huge impact on her life and now 10-15 years later she is receiving counselling for it.

I feel terrible for your sister for having to deal with that and understand your anger would cause to you stick up for her. Even though I'm gentle I have stood up for people when needed, some things you just can't let happen. Luckily I never had to deal with bullying and things like that while in elementary/high school and am becoming ever so glad I didn't - honestly high school is hard enough without being bullied and harassed.

and yea it does just seem like it's easier to not deal with the people causing problems because they do just that, cause problems and people like me and Phoebe will eventually just give up. I finally confided in my mom everything that was going on and she got involved but even her involvement didn't really help matters. but for Phoebe, as mentioned previously by myself and some others, the fact that the cause of this behavior towards her was her relationships with the boys was likely a very difficult thing to come totally clean to her mother about.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 10:30 PM
Watch out SHHS et al....this is one hard hitting, to the point piece, imo...
"Prince family friend Darby O'Brien says the school's inaction is inexcusable.

"Why didn't the officials stop it? Never stepped in and stopped it. They claimed they knew about it the week she died and now we know that's not true," said O'Brien.

According to the documents, in December 2009 a student notified a teacher that Flannery Mullins was taunting and threatening Prince in the hallway and bathroom of the high school.

The week before Prince's death, witnesses told investigators Sharon Velazquez was swearing and yelling at Prince in front of teachers in the cafeteria.

Velazquez was suspended later that day when a faculty member witnessed her yelling at Prince in Latin class.

And according to prosecutors the day Prince died, Sean Mulveyhill, Kayla Narey and Ashley Longe were in the school's library loudly yelling derogatory comments at Prince.
The district attorney has said it appears those comments were made in the presence of a faculty member and it went unreported until after Prince's death.

O'Brien said, "If one adult, one official from that school had stepped in during that time this wouldn't have happened."

http://www.necn.com/pages/landing_scitech?Documents-Phoebe-Prince-sought-help-from=1&blockID=213224&feedID=

A few points,

-Seems Sharon didn't get punishment or reported for the cafeteria incident which was done in front of Teachers.

-Seems Flannery Mullins wasn't punished or reported for threatening Phoebe in the hallway and bathroom, which was reported by a student, to a Teacher.

-The obscene library incident occurred in front of faculty, and was not reported.

IMO...incompetance. THESE people are trusted with children? Makes me sick.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 10:35 PM
Imagine Phoebe sitting there...being berated, shamed, threatened...time and time and time again, while Teachers gaze away...

No wonder she gave up hope. How's that not criminal? It should be. IMO

thebear14
04-10-2010, 10:36 PM
Imagine Phoebe sitting there...being berated, shamed, threatened...time and time and time again, while Teachers gaze away...

No wonder she gave up hope. How's that not criminal? It should be. IMO

makes me completely ill and utterly heartbroken.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 10:45 PM
makes me completely ill and utterly heartbroken.
I hear you. And on top of that, this was what an "American" school was to her. She had no other reference. By the adults doing nothing, they told her...this is our normal. This is acceptable. Deal with it. IMO.

ETA: Incredibly, some residents of South Hadley are STILL saying this is normal!

Paladine
04-10-2010, 10:51 PM
just thinking...sometimes living with what we do is alot easier than living with what we did not do.

adnoid
04-10-2010, 11:24 PM
There are always certain things that the prosecution can not bring into a trial, UNLESS the defense opens a legal gateway for them to do so by presenting certain information during their portion of trial testimony.

Exactly. A well prepared prosecution will have the information on the things behind these gateways ready to go if the defense screws up and opens them up.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 11:29 PM
makes me completely ill and utterly heartbroken.

Every revelation to this story makes it worse. And there's vast amount hidden in the darkness still.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 11:29 PM
I was reading this older piece...

http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/04/07/teens-plead-innocent-bullying-charges

and came upon the names of Mulveyhill's attorney's. Vincent A. Bongiomi is interesting...look at this case from 2006. He mysteriously withdrew from a coruption case involving a chief of staff for a mayor and police.
http://www.masslive.com/springfield/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-7/1163494717245800.xml&coll=1

adnoid
04-10-2010, 11:30 PM
...are people really that heartless?

They are, absolutely.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 11:34 PM
New post from run4chocolate. It's video, and I'm without speakers, so I hope someone will post info if it's relevant.
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/cnns-ireport-has-an-interesting-post-on-phoebe-prince/

Paladine
04-10-2010, 11:47 PM
More on Mulveyhill's attorney Vincent A. Bongiorni ...he was on the original defense team of a mob hit man and his co-counsel from that case has since been disbarred. It's quite the read...from..."Mafiatoday"...:waitasec:

http://mafiatoday.com/new-england-mafia/mob-killer-may-get-out-early/

Paladine
04-10-2010, 11:56 PM
More on Mulveyhill's attorney...

""Not Guilty Verdict in Alleged Mob Shake Down"

""This was a case where everyone thought the jury was paying attention and did their job based on the law and the evidence," said Vincent Bongiorni, attorney for Arillotta.

The jury came back with the not-guilty verdict just hours after they began deliberations.

The defense had earlier accused the prosecution of bringing this case as a way of luring out other conspirators in Bruno's murder."

http://www.cbs3springfield.com/news/local/14801351.html
http://www.cbs3springfield.com/news/local/14159672.html

jjenny
04-11-2010, 12:02 AM
Exactly. A well prepared prosecution will have the information on the things behind these gateways ready to go if the defense screws up and opens them up.

What does defense potentially screwing things up down the road have to do with defense requesting information now?
By the way I believe that prosecution has to provide defense with all the evidence they have before trial.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:14 AM
From Ireland...
"School must be 'held to account' in Phoebe case
Governor hits out at teachers who ignored bullied teen's plea for help"

"THE governor of Massachusetts has called for school officials to be "held accountable" ..."

Court documents released by prosecutors in the case last Thursday claim that the bullied Irish girl begged school administrators a week before her death to be allowed home so she would not be beaten up.

Officials at the school have denied the allegation, and insisted that they only heard from teachers and students that Ms Prince was having trouble with her schoolmates in the week before she hanged herself.

The high school's counter claim stands in stark contrast to the case presented by prosecutors. Detailing a relentless campaign of harassment against the teenager, prosecutors describe three months in which she endured a torrent of verbal and physical abuse at the hands of six of her classmates, two of whom she had previously dated.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:16 AM
"As a licensed physician, I am obligated to report any evidence of or even suspicion of abuse or danger regarding my young patients. Failure to do so places me at risk of discipline and loss of my license.

Maybe it’s time to require the same responsibility for licensed educators. We wouldn’t even have to get permission from the teachers’ unions.
--Dr. A. KUSIAK
http://www.masslive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/04/letters_one_way_to_target_bull.html

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:37 AM
Drug case involving Mulveyhill's lawyer, he won...this one's interesting. The prosecution lost a vital ruling for evidence to be admitted...
http://blog.masslive.com/breakingnews/2007/04/judge_rules_police_erred_in_11.html

Laurence
04-11-2010, 12:39 AM
just thinking...sometimes living with what we do is alot easier than living with what we did not do.

Yes, because thinking about what we did not do brings regret, and with it facing up to failure. Whereas the opposite, living with what we do, now that's easier to rationalize as "its just how things are, I can't change them."

Laurence
04-11-2010, 12:41 AM
New post from run4chocolate. It's video, and I'm without speakers, so I hope someone will post info if it's relevant.
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/cnns-ireport-has-an-interesting-post-on-phoebe-prince/

It's that same ireport thing at CNN that was posted here earlier.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:42 AM
Yes, because thinking about what we did not do brings regret, and with it facing up to failure. Whereas the opposite, living with what we do, now that's easier to rationalize as "its just how things are, I can't change them."
Boy...ain't that the truth. I'm glad I have lived my life in color. ;)

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:53 AM
It's that same ireport thing at CNN that was posted here earlier.
Thanks, Lawrence. I do have a laptop w/sound but it's new and the keys are stiff. I have another that is my old fave laptop. :) The keys are worn in and the keyboard layout, familiar...but it doesn't have sound. :banghead: I broke a jack inside the darn thing therefore the speakers won't play. I write and read way more than I view videos, so it seems a pain to change computers for 1 video.

So...to make a long story short. ;) or not so short, lol...thanks for watching the video. :)

Natal
04-11-2010, 02:07 AM
I agree the state of mind doesn't matter in statutory rape charges because it's not forcible rape, but DA would have to prove sex took place to prove statutory rape. So how does DA intend to prove it? If she never accused anyone of statutory rape there unlikely to be physical evidence. So what is it based on? Depending on what DA intends to use as evidence I can speculate how state of mind could matter, but anyhow the judge will decide whether it's relevant information or not. I presume it is standard for defense to ask.

I don't think they can prove it, but that may not be the point. It may be a case of over chargeing possibly to intimidate the accused into a plea deal, plus the accusation alone will taint their lives for a long time, even if they aren't convicted and they wouldn't be able to defend themselves. That would be a form of punishment in itself.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 02:08 AM
I found this on craiglist, it's purported to be text from the Dr. Phil Show. I haven't seen...yet. I wonder if anyone can confirm this was said on Dr. Phil?

He brings up Darby’s claim that Phoebe was observed arriving late to school and crying throughout entire classes.

“A lot of people heard this. A lot of people knew this. There was a teacher who had reported this to the main office six weeks out,” Darby says. “He had seen two girls bullying Phoebe in the corner, standing afterward, crying, and he called it into the office. I mean, they knew. What they really tried to do is they tried to sweep it under the rug.”
If we can verify this text, Phoebe crying and arriving late to school that morning is disconcerting. Did they physically confront or assault her on the way to school? Did they do this regularily? Did they also follow her home, at times?
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/rnr/1682948361.html

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 10:30 AM
Good morning all! I came accrossed this girl last night. Alexis Pilkignton. You can facebook her name and see some of what Phoebe went through. Maybe we can all screen cap the page and turn it over to authorities?

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 10:44 AM
Most of the stuff is gone from the page. This is the page with the most hate. http://www.facebook.com/search/?flt=1&q=Alexis%20Pilkignton&o=65&sid=100000549273769.4201367843..1#!/pages/Give-everthing-but-up-Alexis-Skye-Pilkington-RIP/111014255581476?ref=search&sid=100000549273769.4201367843..1

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 11:09 AM
I'm checking out any bebo related to phoebe

A blog dedicated to bullying and Phoebe

http://megankelleyhall.blogspot.com/2010/03/remembering-phoebe-prince.html

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 11:20 AM
At 00:46 you can see the front of Phoebe's house. It doesn't look like there are stairs there. Only in the back leading up to her house.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIVR66BFvyM&NR=1

at 1:21 you can see her house again and the back of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24G2Yl7Gzxw&NR=1

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 11:30 AM
Another tormentor. Has this been turned over to authorities? Screen capped?

http://www.youtube.com/user/TormentorSioux

Paladine
04-11-2010, 11:39 AM
Good morning all! I came accrossed this girl last night. Alexis Pilkignton. You can facebook her name and see some of what Phoebe went through. Maybe we can all screen cap the page and turn it over to authorities?

Sure, waddup, peeps are legally allowed to screen cap anything and send to authorities. But we aren't allowed to use Websleuths to organize it, I think. I got a big slap 2 years ago for that. :loser: lol...I wait for the mod god on that one...

I've heard and read about Alexis. I was disappointed and didn't pay much further attention once I heard her Father said bullying wasn't responsible. Maybe he doesn't know...or there's more to the story? Does Alexis have a thread, anywhere, mods?

Paladine
04-11-2010, 11:42 AM
wow...waddup, great links!! :blowkiss:

Paladine
04-11-2010, 11:46 AM
Another tormentor. Has this been turned over to authorities? Screen capped?

http://www.youtube.com/user/TormentorSioux
I have no idea but I'd forward it, waddup...maybe to the DA's office. Hope you do.

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 11:48 AM
I was hoping you'd see the ones with the front of the house. That other link is a troll site. Someone is imping that girl and doing that. If you look at her profile on youtube you will get link to her real profile. I think she knows what's going on too.

Laurence
04-11-2010, 11:49 AM
If we can verify this text, Phoebe crying and arriving late to school that morning is disconcerting. Did they physically confront or assault her on the way to school? Did they do this regularily? Did they also follow her home, at times?

She walked home the last day, and her house is so close to the school, I imagine she must have walked almost every day. It would have been very easy for them to target her both coming and going.

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 11:49 AM
Longe was the can thrower.

I fully think this should be classified as a hate crime due to the fact the word Irish was used in insults.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 11:51 AM
She walked home the last day, and her house is so close to the school, I imagine she must have walked almost every day. It would have been very easy for them to target her both coming and going.
I get a bad feeling reading your post. I really hope they didn't touch her after school, that day...

OrdinaryLife
04-11-2010, 11:52 AM
Another tormentor. Has this been turned over to authorities? Screen capped?

http://www.youtube.com/user/TormentorSioux

Hate begets hate. This is so disturbing on so many levels. I get anger and frustrations over this whole case, but to lower yourselves to to such depths is beyond me.

Does *anyone* get that they are doing the EXACT same thing that Ms Prince went through??? Sweet Mary.... :(

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 11:52 AM
Kristian makes very excellent points on this discussion on one of Phoebe's support sites I belong to. The link is his discussion.

http://www.facebook.com/?sk=2361831622#!/topic.php?uid=106256199412197&topic=24

Paladine
04-11-2010, 11:57 AM
I was hoping you'd see the ones with the front of the house. That other link is a troll site. Someone is imping that girl and doing that. If you look at her profile on youtube you will get link to her real profile. I think she knows what's going on too.
Yes, I know the stairwell is not at the front. I've gotten my quote from the globe journo confirming, it was the rear. I asked sauerkraut, he seems to think she was indoors. Maybe another stairwell INDOORS? But even that doesn't make me feel better. I still have doubts about her "suicide". They reportedly told her to go hang herself...sort of sadistically ironic she was found hung. Did they help her?

Maybe it's just me and the lack of info. Maybe when more details are revealed, it'll be clear she did. I need proof to believe things...;)

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:03 PM
Kristian makes very excellent points on this discussion on one of Phoebe's support sites I belong to. The link is his discussion.

http://www.facebook.com/?sk=2361831622#!/topic.php?uid=106256199412197&topic=24
Wow. He read my mind. Now, I don't feel so crazy, thanks, waddup...

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 12:10 PM
Picture of Sharon and her mom

http://www.facebook.com/?sk=2361831622#!/photo.php?pid=215116&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=106256199412197&id=100000467651056

if you look through that group of photos you will see a few of the house and one up close of the stairs. I'm guessing the significance of that photo is to show where she was found?

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:15 PM
I was hoping you'd see the ones with the front of the house. That other link is a troll site. Someone is imping that girl and doing that. If you look at her profile on youtube you will get link to her real profile. I think she knows what's going on too.
Okay. Whoever that account belongs to just signed in 35 mins ago and the repulsive text re; Phoebe is still there...it should be taken down, I'm reporting it to youtube.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:23 PM
Picture of Sharon and her mom

http://www.facebook.com/?sk=2361831622#!/photo.php?pid=215116&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=106256199412197&id=100000467651056

if you look through that group of photos you will see a few of the house and one up close of the stairs. I'm guessing the significance of that photo is to show where she was found?
Yes, that's why those photos were uploaded, imo.

The rear of the house- Now, look at the top floor, on the rear. It appears to have a screen-like porch along the back, that is seperate from the main house. And the bottom floor of the rear seems to have windows along the back, would there be a stairway in there? I really wish some local would pipe up about this.

AND...I want to know if she made it into the apartment. From reports I've read, nothing indicates she did. Now, imagine having a day from H.E. double L and not even going into your home, after that? Just hanging yourself in the stairs? No note? Knowing your younger Sister was the next due home? And to be found hung in a christmas scarf from her Sister, why would she use that? Phoebe was a writer, as we've seen from her blog, I really think if she was going to kill herself she might have had something to say.

jjenny
04-11-2010, 12:28 PM
Wow. He read my mind. Now, I don't feel so crazy, thanks, waddup...

Hanging is actually a very common method of suicide among women, from the published information I could gather on the internet. It's one of the three most popular ones-firearms, poison, and then hanging.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:32 PM
Hanging is actually a very common method of suicide among women, from the published information I could gather on the internet.
Well, I'd like to see your link, jjenny. Here's mine...stats from the CDC:
The following statistics were taken from a recent survey of college and high school students by the CDC:
"About 60 percent of teen suicides are committed by a hand gun. Teen girls attempt suicide far more often than guys (about nine times more), but guys are about four times more likely to succeed. Why is this different?

Male teens tend to use more deadly methods, like guns or hanging themselves. Girls most often attempt suicide by overdosing with medication or through some form of self-injury. Suicide deaths can occur from pills, medications and other harmful substances, especially if these substances are mixed."
http://www.livestrong.com/article/13945-suicide/

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 12:34 PM
Okay. Whoever that account belongs to just signed in 35 mins ago and the repulsive text re; Phoebe is still there...it should be taken down, I'm reporting it to youtube.


I've also reported several times

jjenny
04-11-2010, 12:38 PM
It was a third most popular method for females in 2005. By the way it's rather likely Phoebe did not have access to firearms or poison.

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:43 PM
It was a third most popular method for females in 2005. By the way it's rather likely Phoebe did not have access to firearms or poison.

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html
Every house has poison, jjenny. Look under the sink. ;) But upon reflection, I think we need Irish statistics. Phoebe wasn't American...

OrdinaryLife
04-11-2010, 12:48 PM
People who are determined to kill themselves will use what they have available to them to do so.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:50 PM
Good primer for a newbie, a nice write up by the editor...with links to more articles...

"Phoebe Prince suicide result of sinister teens and ignorant adults"
http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/joe-owens/index.ssf/2010/04/phoebe_prince_suicide_result_o.html

Paladine
04-11-2010, 12:52 PM
People who are determined to kill themselves will use what they have available to them to do so.
True. But in an empty apartment...was the only choice Phoebe had...hanging in her christmas scarf?

daisy7
04-11-2010, 12:52 PM
Sure, waddup, peeps are legally allowed to screen cap anything and send to authorities. But we aren't allowed to use Websleuths to organize it, I think. I got a big slap 2 years ago for that. :loser: lol...I wait for the mod god on that one...

I've heard and read about Alexis. I was disappointed and didn't pay much further attention once I heard her Father said bullying wasn't responsible. Maybe he doesn't know...or there's more to the story? Does Alexis have a thread, anywhere, mods?

If anyone sees something they think should be sent to authorities, please do so. WSers have made tons of excellent finds in the many cases here and have forwarded them. Just don't mention WS when you alert them.

I searched, but didn't see a thread for Alexis. Jeez - another sad case:( Can someone start a thread for her in the bullying forum?

Also, wanted to let you know that, while I am following this case closely, I don't always read every post. If you have a mod. question, please PM myself or Tricia. If you don't yet have PM abilities, you can leave a visitor message on either of our profiles.

OrdinaryLife
04-11-2010, 12:57 PM
True. But in an empty apartment...was the only choice Phoebe had...hanging in her christmas scarf?

Yes. But, I can promise you she didn't consider it a Christmas scarf. It was something that was long enough to be knotted. You are thinking rationally and with a gift emotion. Phoebe wasn't rational. She was in total distress and deep pain. It was an "item" that she grabbed and used.

imvho

daisy7
04-11-2010, 01:02 PM
You guys are having a great conversation. Disagreeing with a poster's opinion is totally fine, as everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just address whatever you disagree with in the post. DO NOT attack the individual poster. Thanks!

Paladine
04-11-2010, 01:05 PM
Yes. But, I can promise you she didn't consider it a Christmas scarf. It was something that was long enough to be knotted. You are thinking rationally and with a gift emotion. Phoebe wasn't rational. She was in total distress and deep pain. It was an "item" that she grabbed and used.
imvho
You may be right, my friend. It's heartbreaking. I want to know if it's the same scarf as she wore to school that day...or if she looked for it...

OrdinaryLife
04-11-2010, 01:16 PM
You may be right, my friend. It's heartbreaking. I want to know if it's the same scarf as she wore to school that day...or if she looked for it...

In my "not in the know" :) opinion, odds were it was the scarf she had worn that day, but again, I could be very wrong. She wasn't home long before she hanged herself. I believe the time frame, between the texts sent/received (and those not read sent to her) and her body found, it was not long at all.

I don't believe she looked for this particular scarf, but it was one that she already had very nearby. As in, one she may have worn that day.

imvho

adnoid
04-11-2010, 01:17 PM
...
I fully think this should be classified as a hate crime due to the fact the word Irish was used in insults.

I believe they are laying the groundwork for that, as the documents released on the first three dirtbag scumballs repeatedly referred to harassment based on Phoebe's "Irish heritage".

Paladine
04-11-2010, 01:20 PM
In my "not in the know" :) opinion, odds were it was the scarf she had worn that day, but again, I could be very wrong. She wasn't home long before she hanged herself. I believe the time frame, between the texts sent/received (and those not read sent to her) and her body found, it was not long at all.

I don't believe she looked for this particular scarf, but it was one that she already had very nearby. As in, one she may have worn that day.

imvho
I hope it was not a scarf, the scarf, she wore that day...somehow if she looked for it, hunted around the apartment, I'd feel more secure it was suicide.

OrdinaryLife
04-11-2010, 01:29 PM
I hope it was not a scarf, the scarf, she wore that day...somehow if she looked for it, hunted around the apartment, I'd feel more secure it was suicide.

I completely understand you're hesitation to believe it was a suicide by her own hands. I do have to share I don't think it was anymore sinister than what we know and the ME/DA have shared. If there was any question, at all, I have absolutely no doubt that a murder charge would have been filed after the results of autopsy, forensics, and followed up investigation was completed. This county DA never even blinked in regards of charging bullying, etc. If there was *any* question at all that others had committed a murder, it would be there.

imvho

Laurence
04-11-2010, 01:34 PM
Yes, that's why those photos were uploaded, imo.

The rear of the house- Now, look at the top floor, on the rear. It appears to have a screen-like porch along the back, that is seperate from the main house. And the bottom floor of the rear seems to have windows along the back, would there be a stairway in there? I really wish some local would pipe up about this.

AND...I want to know if she made it into the apartment. From reports I've read, nothing indicates she did. Now, imagine having a day from H.E. double L and not even going into your home, after that? Just hanging yourself in the stairs? No note? Knowing your younger Sister was the next due home? And to be found hung in a christmas scarf from her Sister, why would she use that? Phoebe was a writer, as we've seen from her blog, I really think if she was going to kill herself she might have had something to say.

I did read somewhere that she had left her phone on and had plugged it in (prehaps to show the texts she had been getting). If that is so then she probably did make inside the house.

Laurence
04-11-2010, 01:35 PM
A short opinion article on Phoebe. Apologies if somebody already posted it and I missed it.

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/Phoebe-Prince-was-thrown-to-the-wolves-90562519.html

Paladine
04-11-2010, 01:37 PM
I completely understand you're hesitation to believe it was a suicide by her own hands. I do have to share I don't think it was anymore sinister than what we know and the ME/DA have shared. If there was any question, at all, I have absolutely no doubt that a murder charge would have been filed after the results of autopsy, forensics, and followed up investigation was completed. This county DA never even blinked in regards of charging bullying, etc. If there was *any* question at all that others had committed a murder, it would be there.

imvho
Again...:) you are likely correct. But I'm still doubtful. I just need evidence...
and I'll believe...

Paladine
04-11-2010, 01:39 PM
I did read somewhere that she had left her phone on and had plugged it in (prehaps to show the texts she had been getting). If that is so then she probably did make inside the house.
She had her phone charging? Why charge your phone if you're going to kill yourself? The texts would be available if the battery ran low, no? I'd like to know more about that. The trial can't come fast enough, for me.

OrdinaryLife
04-11-2010, 01:40 PM
Again...:) you are likely correct. But I'm still doubtful. I just need evidence...
and I'll believe...

Never say never, but I think the possibility is high for suicide. That said, I get what you are thinking/saying. That's *all* good! :)

Laurence
04-11-2010, 01:43 PM
She had her phone charging? Why charge your phone if you're going to kill yourself? The texts would be available if the battery ran low, no? I'd like to know more about that. The trial can't come fast enough, for me.

True. It may have been as simple as habit though. Get home, plug it in...

jjenny
04-11-2010, 01:48 PM
She had her phone charging? Why charge your phone if you're going to kill yourself? The texts would be available if the battery ran low, no? I'd like to know more about that. The trial can't come fast enough, for me.

You are jumping to conclusions based on another person stating they have seen it somewhere. I have not seen anything published by a reliable source as to what she did with her phone if anything.
And if anybody has links to this information they should post it.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 01:52 PM
You are jumping to conclusions based on another person stating they have seen it somewhere. I have not seen anything published by a reliable source as to what she did with her phone if anything.
And if anybody has links to this information they should post it.

I said:
"She had her phone charging? Why charge your phone if you're going to kill yourself? The texts would be available if the battery ran low, no? I'd like to know more about that. The trial can't come fast enough, for me."

They were questions not conclusions, jjen...:)

Laurence
04-11-2010, 01:57 PM
You are jumping to conclusions based on another person stating they have seen it somewhere. I have not seen anything published by a reliable source as to what she did with her phone if anything.
And if anybody has links to this information they should post it.

Here is where I read it, an article in People...

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20350702,00.html

"That afternoon she plugged her phone into the wall—perhaps to show the world the text messages that had terrorized her. "

jjenny
04-11-2010, 01:58 PM
I said:
"She had her phone charging? Why charge your phone if you're going to kill yourself? The texts would be available if the battery ran low, no? I'd like to know more about that. The trial can't come fast enough, for me."

They were questions not conclusions, jjen...:)

I also don't know why anyone would charge their phone if they were going to kill themselves soon thereafter (if it did happen), unless she decided to kill herself in the spur of the moment. The suicide does not sound like a planned decision on the girl's part. We know she had a date for the dance, had bought a dress to wear at the dance, and we've seen nothing published to suggest she had told anyone she planned to do it, or left a suicide note.

jjenny
04-11-2010, 02:06 PM
Here is where I read it, an article in People...

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20350702,00.html

"That afternoon she plugged her phone into the wall—perhaps to show the world the text messages that had terrorized her. "
Thank you, I did not see that.
That would indicate she did make it inside of the house.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 02:07 PM
I also don't know why anyone would charge their phone if they were going to kill themselves soon thereafter (if it did happen), unless she decided to kill herself in the spur of the moment. The suicide does not sound like a planned decision on the girl's part. We know she had a date for the dance, had bought a dress to wear at the dance, and we've seen nothing published to suggest she had told anyone she planned to do it, or left a suicide note.
That's it. And she bought a dress and made plans as to when to be picked up for the dance, the day she died...it doesn't sound like it was planned, to me, either...

WaddupYo
04-11-2010, 02:07 PM
I wish I still lived on the east coast. I surely would make it a weekend trip to Mass. OR a few day trip. I know in June there is going to be a gathering of some sort. Let me see if I can find it.

(Back and forth today with my wee ones and computer. Hub is @ school and I'm retouching a photoshoot from a few weeks ago)

Paladine
04-11-2010, 02:32 PM
A priceless Gus Sayer quote from People mag dated February 22:
"Bullying is not tolerated at this school," Sayer says.
Does it hurt to be this clueless, I wonder?

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20350702,00.html

OrdinaryLife
04-11-2010, 02:40 PM
A priceless Gus Sayer quote from People mag dated February 22:

Does it hurt to be this clueless, I wonder?

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20350702,00.html

I could *SO* go there, but won't. Killing me, but won't. Those who know me will understand why and may actually be proud of me. That I was a good girl.... :D

Paladine
04-11-2010, 04:34 PM
WWLP

Has no stories on Mulveyhill since April 1st/2010 and it's a fluff piece, imo...

http://www.wwlp.com/search/SERP?q=mulveyhill&t=web&s=wwlp.com&o=relevance&google_web=google

(It is the same website I saw all negative comments of Mulveyhill deleted from, I posted a comment mentioning such...and it was deleted, too)

Their last story was on how hard the bully's families have it, I posted the link within the last two days...but it's now not available :waitasec:...here's the tweet from WWLP's twitter about it, though...

"Charged teen's family impacted - The nation turned its eyes to Phoebe Prince's case as legal proceedings began, but... http://ow.ly/172bn8"
http://twitter.com/WWLp

They don't even name the 3 eldest in this more recent piece...and the reader might assume they were referring to the 3 following names, the younger girls, if they didn't see the locations reported are different. Mulveyhill, Narey, and Renuad are the oldest.
SOUTH HADLEY, Mass. (WWLP) - It may be a while until the teens are seen in a courtroom, however the teens accused for bullying Pheobe Prince to death did have to finally appear for booking .

The oldest three were spotted for booking at the Northampton State Police barracks Friday morning.
Ashley Longe and Flannery Mullins had to check in with Franklin/Hampshire Juvenile Court.
Sharon Velazquez checked in on Thursday.

http://ow.ly/1726nK

They are also the station that got the scoop, and leaked the info, about Phoebe "being prone to bullying"...

A parent told 22News that Phoebe Prince's family told school officials that Phoebe was "susceptible to bullying" when she first enrolled at South Hadley High School.
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/was-phoebe-susceptible-to-bullying

And take a look at the pressure they are receiving from residents to shut up...check out their FB page comments...

http://www.facebook.com/WWLP22News

Now, this headline...

"Bullying blame game is on"...

http://ow.ly/172CXY

I ask, why is holding people responsible for their inaction termed a "blame game"?

Sometimes, I wonder about mainstream media...

Paladine
04-11-2010, 05:22 PM
I haven't seen any documents relating to Sean and Austen maybe there is more reference in those?

GREAT question, Andy. Where are the dox for Mulveyhill, Narey and Renaud? I've emailed a few news outlets to ask...if anybody else finds out anything on this, please post...

Paladine
04-11-2010, 05:31 PM
It makes sense if they were jealous of her, they probably wouldn't like to see her there especially at an occasion where she would be dressed up and looking even prettier than usual just in case she caught any of their "mens" eyes, they must have felt threatened by her on that level. Had she been a less attractive girl they may not have felt the need to keep it going for so long. JMO(just found out what that means so using it all the time now)

From my reading, this dance was the social event of the winter. The cotillion. Fancy dresses and makeup. No wonder there are reports Phoebe was excited to go, she was a pretty girl with a beautiful dress...and I can see some not wanting her there, too...for just that reason.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 05:43 PM
Please forgive me if this has been posted, it's all blurring together, again...;)

IMO, Phoebe was sexually harassed. How can the 'words' they used be termed any other way?

"U.S. Supreme Court: A potent legal weapon against school bullies"

But a little-known, and apparently little regarded, 10-year-old U.S. Supreme Court decision gives parents the power to take action in court and seek damages against school inaction. If a school district ignores harassment, and a child is effectively denied an education, a parent can take the district to court and ask that the district be punished -- in the pocketbook.

LaShonda Davis "was allegedly the victim of a prolonged pattern of sexual harassment by one of her fifth-grade classmates at Hubbard Elementary School, a public school in Monroe County (Ga.)," the 1999 Supreme Court opinion in Davis vs. Monroe County said.

LaShonda told her mother and her teacher, and her mother reported the many incidents to school officials, including the principal, the high court said.

The harassment finally ended in mid-May 1993 when the boy pleaded guilty to sexual battery, but not before LaShonda's high grades had dropped and her father discovered in April 1993 she had written a suicide note. At the time, Lashonda was 10 years old.

LaShonda's family filed suit against school officials and the school district under federal Title IX -- which bans sexual discrimination in schools receiving federal money -- but the lower federal courts said the law, while covering school officials who engaged in sexual discrimination, did not encompass student-on-student harassment. The language in Title IX includes no private right to sue.

In May 1993, the Supreme Court reversed the lower court decision, recognized the right to sue but made sure the grounds for suing were narrow and to the point. Even so, the ruling appears to apply to those severely bullied in school through the use of sexual harassment."
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/04/11/US-Supreme-Court-A-potent-legal-weapon-against-school-bullies/UPI-54651270974600/

Paladine
04-11-2010, 06:28 PM
Earlier reporting from local media...the story on Feb. 5/2010 was...

School officials are nearing the end of the probe of high school bullying that preceded a freshman student's Jan. 14 suicide, and any discipline taken will be made public, according to School Committee Chairman Edward J. Boisselle.
Boisselle said when High School Principal Daniel T. Smith's investigation is complete - which, he said, could be today - officials will make public any policies that have been violated and related disciplinary measures taken against students.

"We will not name individuals and what the individual punishment is," Boisselle said.

He said the School Committee has full confidence in the high school administration's handling of the case.

"Although it's not as quickly as some people would have liked, we have to make sure our investigation is thorough," Boisselle said. "We would be much more likely to be questioning their handling of the case if they had exposed information that should have been off limits or violated students' civil rights."

Any thoughts on what Boisselle might have meant by that? I'm not up on American civil rights. ;) He seems to be expressing approval that the investigation was tight lipped. But what information is "off limits", I wonder? And what 'civil rights' of the bullies would/could have been violated by a school investigation? Other than the release of names...?

There was an assault at the school on Jan. 21st. Wonder what that was about..."earlier been disciplined"? Sharon?! Is that YOU, again? :nono:

And, South Hadley police are seeking a criminal complaint against a South Hadley High School student involved in an alleged Jan. 21 assault at the high school, according to LaBrie.

That incident involved two female students, one of whom had earlier been disciplined, according to school officials who declined to elaborate on the assault or the punishment. The request for the police complaint was forwarded to the Northwestern district attorney's office for review, LaBrie said.

But can it be Sharon? Does Sharon have previous charges? What punishment came of this incident, if any, I wonder...and what was the confrontation over...
"That investigation is complete," LaBrie said of the Jan. 21 assault, which police and school officials say did not cause physical injury.

Speaking about harassment of the bullies, the police chief responded...
"We are almost positive it's not local people because local people know these families," LaBrie said.

"The school has identified about 30 students as potential witnesses to bullying, though a couple of these students have declined to provide information on the advice of their lawyers, said Boisselle.

Boisselle said he does not think this would stymie the school investigation's progress.

"It's not even half, it's a couple of kids that didn't cooperate and provide information because a lawyer advised them that way," Boisselle said. "The kids were being interviewed as potential material witnesses."

Wonder who didn't cooperate?

http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/02/05/school-probe-bullying-nears-its-end?SESS3268f2168c9cff93c8114fcedf95278c=gnews

Paladine
04-11-2010, 07:40 PM
WWLP has video of Darby O'Brien discussing Phoebe and bullying..."inFocus"...it's a 2 hour special. I haven't watched it, yet, no idea what's all in it, might be some new info.
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/infocus/special-infocus-phoebe-prince-case-part2

Laurence
04-11-2010, 07:40 PM
Wonder who didn't cooperate?

http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/02/05/school-probe-bullying-nears-its-end?SESS3268f2168c9cff93c8114fcedf95278c=gnews

Ones who also participated but who haven't yet been charged perhaps.

thebear14
04-11-2010, 08:11 PM
WWLP has video of Darby O'Brien discussing Phoebe and bullying..."inFocus"...it's a 2 hour special. I haven't watched it, yet, no idea what's all in it, might be some new info.
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/infocus/special-infocus-phoebe-prince-case-part2

I saw that. I'd like to watch it tonight but doubtful I'll be able to. I also have the dr. phil thing on my dvr I still have to watch. think I'm gonna have to take a half day tomorrow just to catch up, ha ;)

thebear14
04-11-2010, 08:22 PM
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/fred_contrada_irish_remain_ret.html

thought this was an interesting read - about her hometown in Ireland. Talks about how they don't like to talk about stuff, heh. Didn't see it posted already but I'm a bit out of it so I apologize if it's already been posted.

Paladine
04-11-2010, 09:01 PM
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/fred_contrada_irish_remain_ret.html

thought this was an interesting read - about her hometown in Ireland. Talks about how they don't like to talk about stuff, heh. Didn't see it posted already but I'm a bit out of it so I apologize if it's already been posted.
I KNOW it's only a comment...but read what snookered1 posted on that article...I hope someone with a masslive account asks why she/he said that, I don't have one...

Paladine
04-11-2010, 09:23 PM
FB page set up to rally support for the big school committee meeting, this Wednesday...
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=112012232159716&index=1

jjenny
04-11-2010, 10:57 PM
I KNOW it's only a comment...but read what snookered1 posted on that article...I hope someone with a masslive account asks why she/he said that, I don't have one...

I would guess because people post all kind of things on the internet.

jjenny
04-11-2010, 11:08 PM
I completely understand you're hesitation to believe it was a suicide by her own hands. I do have to share I don't think it was anymore sinister than what we know and the ME/DA have shared. If there was any question, at all, I have absolutely no doubt that a murder charge would have been filed after the results of autopsy, forensics, and followed up investigation was completed. This county DA never even blinked in regards of charging bullying, etc. If there was *any* question at all that others had committed a murder, it would be there.

imvho

The DA who apparently thinks an (empty?) energy drink can is a dangerous weapon-yes, I think she would would jump at a chance to prosecute for murder if there were any evidence suggesting anything of the sort.

OrdinaryLife
04-11-2010, 11:16 PM
The DA who apparently thinks an (empty?) energy drink can is a dangerous weapon-yes, I think she would would jump at a chance to prosecute for murder if there were any evidence suggesting anything of the sort.

My response had nothing to do with a can (empty or full), but that there is concern regarding the hanging. There are a few previous posts that led to my post that I was responding to.

imvho

jjenny
04-11-2010, 11:21 PM
My response had nothing to do with a can (empty or full), but that there is concern regarding the hanging. There are a few previous posts that led to my post that I was responding to.

imvho

I was agreeing with your point that if there was any evidence of murder then the DA would have jumped on it. At least to me, it certainly looks like she wants to go for the biggest case she possibly can.

OrdinaryLife
04-11-2010, 11:24 PM
I was agreeing with your point that if there was any evidence of murder then the DA would have jumped on it. At least to me, it certainly looks like she wants to go for the biggest case she possibly can.

Gotchya. I just wanted to be clear as well. Sometimes confusion slips in when you don't mean it to. :)

Paladine
04-11-2010, 11:38 PM
There's a movement to have anti-bullying laws named "Phoebe's Law"
http://www.phoebeslaw.com/

Paladine
04-11-2010, 11:46 PM
I would guess because people post all kind of things on the internet.
Guessing doesn't do it for me, jjenny. I have a burning desire to know.

And btw...isn't this just the cutest smilie? :baby:

I'm easily amused. ;)

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:17 AM
I saw that. I'd like to watch it tonight but doubtful I'll be able to. I also have the dr. phil thing on my dvr I still have to watch. think I'm gonna have to take a half day tomorrow just to catch up, ha ;)
Hope you share your thoughts on both, bear...I look forward to it.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:34 AM
An American writes the people of Ireland...

"As a citizen of the US, I am deeply ashamed at the way Phoebe Prince was treated, and I offer both my sincere condolences to her family and friends, and my apologies to the nation of Ireland.

We here in America want her tormentors punished to the full extent of the law, and I personally feel that school officials should be punished as well for failing to protect her. We are so very, very sorry.

M. A. Purschwitz
Kentucky
I thought it was touching.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/ashamed-sunshine-fuel-costs-tv-licence-2134275.html

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:57 AM
Phoebe's Law twitter feed...
http://twitter.com/PhoebesLaw

Paladine
04-12-2010, 01:41 AM
Want to predict whether Gus Sayer will be in office in 2011? ;)
http://www.hubdub.com/m69352/Will_Gus_Sayer_be_superintendent_of_South_Hadley_s chools_on_the_1st_day_of_the_201011_school_year

Paladine
04-12-2010, 01:59 AM
Interesting comments on Sauerkrauts blog, one about Sean Mulveyhill by Paula, and one on Dan Smith by poster Lorraine...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/how-many-boys-got-into-phoebes-pants/#comments

Paladine
04-12-2010, 02:12 AM
There's alot of talk going around about Darby O'Brien and his relative muteness on the inFocus program today compared to his other appearances. He also stated today he was not appearing on the program as the the family spokesman. The change seems to have startled some. I think it's likely because of the criminal case. He's been quoting Mrs. Prince and answering questions by media, it's a defense attorneys dream. With his new positioning, he can still advocate and the Prince family won't be exposed to undue scrutiny. The court is the place for that. Smart move in my books, Mr. O'Brien. :)

jjenny
04-12-2010, 02:35 AM
Interesting comments on Sauerkrauts blog, one about Sean Mulveyhill by Paula, and one on Dan Smith by poster Lorraine...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/how-many-boys-got-into-phoebes-pants/#comments

A lot of rumors, now if only there were a way to know what is actually correct.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 02:40 AM
Craigslist posting that has text that's alleged to be the minutes from February's school committee meeting...
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/rnr/1687194333.html

Paladine
04-12-2010, 02:41 AM
A lot of rumors, now if only there were a way to know what is actually correct.

True...but it's bubble gum for the brain on a slow night. ;)

ETA: personally...in my gut, I find those particular posters authentic. That's me, jjen...
my new fave smilie? :other_beatingA_Dead
night, jjen...:)

jjenny
04-12-2010, 02:47 AM
True...but it's bubble gum for the brain on a slow night. ;)

My favorite line from Inglorious Basterds:
"I love rumors! Facts can be so misleading, where rumors, true or false, are often revealing." I didn't care much for the rest of the movie, but I really liked that line.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 02:49 AM
My favorite line from Inglorious Basterds:
"I love rumors! Facts can be so misleading, where rumors, true or false, are often revealing." I didn't care much for the rest of the movie, but I really liked that line.

I edited and made it much prettier for you, friend...we'll call you "quick-post-jjenny" ;) night...

thebear14
04-12-2010, 07:02 AM
Hope you share your thoughts on both, bear...I look forward to it.

thanks :D I'll definitely try for both tonight (am actually thinking of taking a half day, hehe) ;)

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 10:40 AM
I've confirmation that she was outside.

I asked someone on a FB group who had the photo outside if this is where she was and he confirmed yes she was outside.

Síochána Loscann
Yeah, unfortunately. When I put this pic up it was unclear if she died here or in closet and now its confirmed via indictments that it was here so don't be surprised if I just take the ****in picture DOWN altogether. There is a feeling within me and its growing that this image is just too ****ed up. Too sad.

Then there is the thought that there could be benefit from driving home the horror of this deal...geting people to do something, grasp how ****ed this whole thing is...and was for Phoebe and her little sister Lauren who found her hanging from these stairs.
... See More
really pretty much tho were anyone to tell me that they think the pic should be taken down.....I'd remove it.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=23687&id=100000957224345

Paladine
04-12-2010, 10:49 AM
Link to new photos of the house, 356 Newton St., for your consideration.If she was outside, it should have been noticed quickly, one would think...still waiting on confirmation of an interior stairwell...
http://img265.imageshack.us/g/sightlinestairs333.jpg/

jjenny
04-12-2010, 10:51 AM
Link to new photos of the house, 356 Newton St., for your consideration.If she was outside, it should have been noticed quickly, one would think...still waiting on confirmation of an interior stairwell...
http://img265.imageshack.us/g/sightlinestairs333.jpg/

If it's a two story house then I would think it likely had to have an interior stairwell, how else would someone be getting to second floor?

Paladine
04-12-2010, 10:52 AM
I've confirmation that she was outside.

I asked someone on a FB group who had the photo outside if this is where she was and he confirmed yes she was outside.

Síochána Loscann
Yeah, unfortunately. When I put this pic up it was unclear if she died here or in closet and now its confirmed via indictments that it was here so don't be surprised if I just take the ****in picture DOWN altogether. There is a feeling within me and its growing that this image is just too ****ed up. Too sad.

Then there is the thought that there could be benefit from driving home the horror of this deal...geting people to do something, grasp how ****ed this whole thing is...and was for Phoebe and her little sister Lauren who found her hanging from these stairs.
... See More
really pretty much tho were anyone to tell me that they think the pic should be taken down.....I'd remove it.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=23687&id=100000957224345
read this thread...;)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=23882&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=106256199412197&id=100000957224345&fbid=103324383042802#!/topic.php?topic=24&post=74&uid=106256199412197#post74

OrdinaryLife
04-12-2010, 10:54 AM
I've confirmation that she was outside.

I asked someone on a FB group who had the photo outside if this is where she was and he confirmed yes she was outside.

Síochána Loscann
Yeah, unfortunately. When I put this pic up it was unclear if she died here or in closet and now its confirmed via indictments that it was here so don't be surprised if I just take the ****in picture DOWN altogether. There is a feeling within me and its growing that this image is just too ****ed up. Too sad.

Then there is the thought that there could be benefit from driving home the horror of this deal...geting people to do something, grasp how ****ed this whole thing is...and was for Phoebe and her little sister Lauren who found her hanging from these stairs.
... See More
really pretty much tho were anyone to tell me that they think the pic should be taken down.....I'd remove it.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=23687&id=100000957224345

Wait.... I just read that she was found in the rear stairwell of apartment according to LE/ME reports. This report doesn't make sense...

Paladine
04-12-2010, 10:55 AM
If it's a two story house then I would think it likely had to have an interior stairwell, how else would someone be getting to second floor?
By the stairs on the rear, jjenny. There are stairs leading upstairs on the rear. The upstairs could be accessed that way. BUT...I agree, there might be a stairwell indoors, too.

jjenny
04-12-2010, 11:02 AM
By the stairs on the rear, jjenny. There are stairs leading upstairs on the rear. The upstairs could be accessed that way. BUT...I agree, there might be a stairwell indoors, too.

I would think if the house originally was build as a two story house (and not a duplex) then the stairwell would be inside. Do we know if the house was meant to be a duplex or simply a two story house?

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 11:14 AM
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1769004206&ref=nf#!/topic.php?uid=106256199412197&topic=24

If you read that discussion that Síochána Loscann has many many great theories on what happened. I wish he'd join us here because you all have many fine points and I think together it would be just fascinating. This is just a little bit of what he says.

I personally don't see HOW she is NOT NOTICED hanging from the stairs long enough for Lauren who gets home at 4:15, 4:30 or w/e to have to be the one to find her ...

I'd personally think it'd be hard for her not to have been noticed by a passing motorist...on Newton. Yes, there'd be but a brief time when stairs are in "sight" and that within one's PERIPHERAL VISION (they'd be looking FORWARD, down Newton) but......man I don't know.....I'd expect she is found before Lauren gets home.

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 11:24 AM
She was buring in her black party dress.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20350702,00.html

Paladine
04-12-2010, 11:42 AM
I would think if the house originally was build as a two story house (and not a duplex) then the stairwell would be inside. Do we know if the house was meant to be a duplex or simply a two story house?
We do not know. But by the age and style of the building, it's very likely, to me, it was a single family home. And very possible there were stairs indoors. Look at the house pics. The house appears to have a screened in porch type area on the top floor, in the rear, and windows on the main floor, in the rear...would there be a stairwell there?

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 11:42 AM
I would think if the house originally was build as a two story house (and not a duplex) then the stairwell would be inside. Do we know if the house was meant to be a duplex or simply a two story house?

My parent's house is a duplex. There are 4 sets of steps. Back porch and front porch, both only 5 steps. There are steps leading down into the apartment in the back and I believe there's only 8 steps. There's a set of stairs inside the house. But there's a door separating the upstairs and the downstairs at the top of the steps. the door locks on both sides to lock the other tenant out. There's nowhere to hang yourself on any of those steps. Steps inside of a house at least in my parent's house give no way to hang yourself. Not knowing how the steps if there are any inside of the house are set up the only thing I can think of are the steps outside. We know for sure how those steps are and it's possible to hang yourself there. I'm still looking for for sure confirmation.

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 11:54 AM
Do we know TOD? Because according to this article she was exchanging texts 2 hours before her death.

• An initial examination of Ms. Prince's cellular telephone was conducted by investigators who were able to determine that several text messages were exchanged between Ms. Prince and an identified telephone number approximately two (2) hours prior to her death. Investigators subsequently learned, through witness interviews, that Ms. Prince had exchanged text messages with a friend during the afternoon of her death. The texts focused around the verbally abusive incidents Ms. Prince had been subjected to by Sean Mulveyhill, Kayla Narey and Ashley Longe earlier on the date of her death and her despair at the on-going taunting to which she was subjected.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/court_documents_detail_hurtful.html

Laurence
04-12-2010, 12:01 PM
My parent's house is a duplex. There are 4 sets of steps. Back porch and front porch, both only 5 steps. There are steps leading down into the apartment in the back and I believe there's only 8 steps. There's a set of stairs inside the house. But there's a door separating the upstairs and the downstairs at the top of the steps. the door locks on both sides to lock the other tenant out. There's nowhere to hang yourself on any of those steps. Steps inside of a house at least in my parent's house give no way to hang yourself. Not knowing how the steps if there are any inside of the house are set up the only thing I can think of are the steps outside. We know for sure how those steps are and it's possible to hang yourself there. I'm still looking for for sure confirmation.


Sauerkraut talks in the comments about living in similar houses and there being interior stairs. Points out that the back stairs aren't really used much and that the back of the house where the exterior stairs go up is really just an enclosed porch.

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/cnns-ireport-has-an-interesting-post-on-phoebe-prince/#comments

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:04 PM
Do we know TOD? Because according to this article she was exchanging texts 2 hours before her death.

• An initial examination of Ms. Prince's cellular telephone was conducted by investigators who were able to determine that several text messages were exchanged between Ms. Prince and an identified telephone number approximately two (2) hours prior to her death. Investigators subsequently learned, through witness interviews, that Ms. Prince had exchanged text messages with a friend during the afternoon of her death. The texts focused around the verbally abusive incidents Ms. Prince had been subjected to by Sean Mulveyhill, Kayla Narey and Ashley Longe earlier on the date of her death and her despair at the on-going taunting to which she was subjected.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/court_documents_detail_hurtful.html
Nope. Don't know TOD, either.

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 12:06 PM
Hanging by the Christmas scarf

Ms. Prince’s younger sister found her at 4:30 p.m., hanging from the stairwell by the scarf her sister had given her for Christmas.

http://community.thenest.com/cs/ks/forums/thread/34355625.aspx

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:06 PM
Sauerkraut talks in the comments about living in similar houses and there being interior stairs. Points out that the back stairs aren't really used much and that the back of the house where the exterior stairs go up is really just an enclosed porch.

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/cnns-ireport-has-an-interesting-post-on-phoebe-prince/#comments

That's what I'm thinking. It appears to be an addition, added for the retrofit, possibly? The back portion of the house looks like there could be a stairwell in there, imo...but we don't know!

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:08 PM
I posted our link on that thread inviting people to join. We'll see.

There...my secret's out. ;) I am Sam Wone...(my version of "some one" ) Time for a new ID. ;)

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 12:11 PM
Sauerkraut talks in the comments about living in similar houses and there being interior stairs. Points out that the back stairs aren't really used much and that the back of the house where the exterior stairs go up is really just an enclosed porch.

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/cnns-ireport-has-an-interesting-post-on-phoebe-prince/#comments

Would there be something to hang herself from if there were a set of stairs right when you walk in the front door leading up? That's a way to think about it. That Sio poster makes it a point to specifically show the stairs at the back of the house.

My parents live in Md. The only way their downstairs tenants get inside is through a door around back leading down to their apartment. My mom gets in through the front door. So their house is a bit different than Phoebe's.

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 12:15 PM
I'm Laura! :)

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:20 PM
I'm Laura! :)
Cool!! :) confession time...lol...nice to meet you, Laura! :blowkiss:

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:23 PM
Would there be something to hang herself from if there were a set of stairs right when you walk in the front door leading up? That's a way to think about it. That Sio poster makes it a point to specifically show the stairs at the back of the house.

My parents live in Md. The only way their downstairs tenants get inside is through a door around back leading down to their apartment. My mom gets in through the front door. So their house is a bit different than Phoebe's.
I'm thinking the same. A stairwell in that back addition area. There are windows on the main floor, in the rear of that house. I wish I lived there...I'd peek! Lol...;)

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 12:24 PM
Cool!! :) confession time...lol...nice to meet you, Laura! :blowkiss:

LOL! Thanks!

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:25 PM
funny...I answered you on that thread, waddup...lol...not knowing who we each were...lol...:)

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 12:26 PM
I'm thinking the same. A stairwell in that back addition area. There are windows on the main floor, in the rear of that house. I wish I lived there...I'd peek! Lol...;)

Oh I'd totally go too! Too bad none of the kids from that HS come here or have tried. I'm surprised no one has. I do think that she couldn't have been outside due to no photos of LE. But then a nagging part of me..sigh Wish I knew! I'd be able to feel better.

And all this RIP stuff is a joke. She won't RIP until her tormenters are brought to justice.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:28 PM
Sciochana made another great point. "IN" the dox say, "IN" a rear stairwell...

Paladine
04-12-2010, 12:31 PM
Oh I'd totally go too! Too bad none of the kids from that HS come here or have tried. I'm surprised no one has. I do think that she couldn't have been outside due to no photos of LE. But then a nagging part of me..sigh Wish I knew! I'd be able to feel better.

And all this RIP stuff is a joke. She won't RIP until her tormenters are brought to justice.
I hope the locals join. They could be of so much help...and here, they can stay anonymous.

I agree. Justice needs to be served. Steaming hot and fresh from Elizabeths oven...free servings to all who deserve one. ;)

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 12:40 PM
funny...I answered you on that thread, waddup...lol...not knowing who we each were...lol...:)

I know right!

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 12:41 PM
Sciochana made another great point. "IN" the dox say, "IN" a rear stairwell...

If the stairs inside are like the stairs outside, where they are wooden with the steps not connected to some type of cement backing, if the railing is like outside then I'd say for sure yes.

raeann
04-12-2010, 12:57 PM
Oh I'd totally go too! Too bad none of the kids from that HS come here or have tried. I'm surprised no one has. I do think that she couldn't have been outside due to no photos of LE. But then a nagging part of me..sigh Wish I knew! I'd be able to feel better.

And all this RIP stuff is a joke. She won't RIP until her tormenters are brought to justice.

Seems like LE would have been all over both in and around the house no matter where she was found, and no pictures of that were taken either. We had a recent incident of suicide in our area with an adult, and there were fire, ambulance, police from several jurisdictions and news crews at the house within minutes. Police tape stayed up enclosing the entire yard for more than 5 hours. Unless the archives of news footage have already been taken down from that day, it seems there must have been a rather small and quiet response by LE to Phoebe's home.

jmoo

Laurence
04-12-2010, 12:57 PM
Letter to the editor by a teacher (Bill O'Neil) at SHHS. Dated today, 4-12-2010.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/letters/view.bg?articleid=1246619&srvc=rss (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/letters/view.bg?articleid=1246619&srvc=rss)

Paladine
04-12-2010, 01:03 PM
Seems like LE would have been all over both in and around the house no matter where she was found, and no pictures of that were taken either. We had a recent incident of suicide in our area with an adult, and there were fire, ambulance, police from several jurisdictions and news crews at the house within minutes. Police tape stayed up enclosing the entire yard for more than 5 hours. Unless the archives of news footage have already been taken down from that day, it seems there must have been a rather small and quiet response by LE to Phoebe's home.

jmoo
Good idea. Maybe we could search for video footage from Jan 14th-Jan 15th...I'll try shortly, I'm helping my Daughter with her parenting project, right now...

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 01:07 PM
http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/1687597969.html

and

http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/1688092619.html

INTERESTING!

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 01:08 PM
Seems like LE would have been all over both in and around the house no matter where she was found, and no pictures of that were taken either. We had a recent incident of suicide in our area with an adult, and there were fire, ambulance, police from several jurisdictions and news crews at the house within minutes. Police tape stayed up enclosing the entire yard for more than 5 hours. Unless the archives of news footage have already been taken down from that day, it seems there must have been a rather small and quiet response by LE to Phoebe's home.

jmoo

I posted a link about the scarf in here. In the article the neighbor is interviewed and he said LE were everywhere.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 01:11 PM
Letter to the editor by a teacher (Bill O'Neil) at SHHS. Dated today, 4-12-2010.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/letters/view.bg?articleid=1246619&srvc=rss (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/letters/view.bg?articleid=1246619&srvc=rss)

Wow. He lost me after...
"None of us wants to see anyone in our school hurt. We abhor abuse."

Sure...I read the dox, buddy. :snooty:

I hope the pressure doesn't go away. If this teacher wants to talk, man up...call the press and do an interview. This looks like Sayer and Smith approved propaganda, to me.

And he used to work in LE? Hmm...

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 01:12 PM
Letter to the editor by a teacher (Bill O'Neil) at SHHS. Dated today, 4-12-2010.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/letters/view.bg?articleid=1246619&srvc=rss (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/letters/view.bg?articleid=1246619&srvc=rss)

WHAT A JOKE! Is he serious?

Laurence
04-12-2010, 01:24 PM
Wow. He lost me after...


Sure...I read the dox, buddy. :snooty:

I hope the pressure doesn't go away. If this teacher wants to talk, man up...call the press and do an interview. This looks like Sayer and Smith approved propaganda, to me.

And he used to work in LE? Hmm...

I really liked how he claimed he and the other teachers were "shocked" at the "ongoing abuse Phoebe is alleged to have experienced." As if they didn't know.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 01:38 PM
I really liked how he claimed he and the other teachers were "shocked" at the "ongoing abuse Phoebe is alleged to have experienced." As if they didn't know.

Maybe we should send him a link to the dox? ;) It's spelled out pretty clearly.

Maybe he could ask his co-workers what happened, they saw it. Many saw it...and if they we're too blind to see the obvious, they should be fired.

ETA: MAYBE he should be spending his time more wisely and find out WHO Phoebe talked to that day, WHO sent her back to class? Boy....grrrrr....

IMO

thebear14
04-12-2010, 01:39 PM
http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/1687597969.html

and

http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/1688092619.html

INTERESTING!

Interesting - except Austin didn't go to SHHS - he went to Springfield. At the moment I don't think it's clear how they met. Also, Austin's sister (or someone who is widely believed to be Austin's sister) commented on someone's facebook status the day Phoebe died that when she told him that Phoebe died he told her why she did it and started laughing.

I too thought that he was just an innocent bystander - just someone Phoebe had a fling with after her and SM broke up. However I'm beginning to think he was a pretty sucky person, as well. JMO! :)

Paladine
04-12-2010, 01:42 PM
Interesting - except Austin didn't go to SHHS - he went to Springfield. At the moment I don't think it's clear how they met. Also, Austin's sister (or someone who is widely believed to be Austin's sister) commented on someone's facebook status the day Phoebe died that when she told him that Phoebe died he told her why she did it and started laughing.

I too thought that he was just an innocent bystander - just someone Phoebe had a fling with after her and SM broke up. However I'm beginning to think he was a pretty sucky person, as well. JMO! :)

Do we have proof of that...? Not to call you out, I've just never seen it. I knew he lived in Springfield but I assumed he went to SHHS.

burbqueen
04-12-2010, 01:42 PM
ok once again i'm trying to be good...

Some speak that PP had alternatives. In all due respect, but if my kid was harrassed at school daily and subject to torment. Why in **** should I have to find an alternative for MY kid?!?!?!? Why should I home school, find a different school etc? Why should I have to cope??? Someone please explain that thinking to me!!! If i'm harrrassed at work, what? Too bad Burbqueen find another job!?!? How does that make any kind of sense?????

Here is a suggestion: How about the bratty, snotty, mean bullies be required to attend another school or have the parents babysit their malcontented butts at home? If you cant act civil at school then kick them out, punsh them anything but require the victim to change his/her life.

I was a sensative kid, yup. I moved from another state and didnt have many friends at first and was bullied. I was so depressed that yeah I did consider killing myself everyday, but I was too much of a coward to go thru with it. Yes, I was lonely and guess what? Human beings need love, compassion, understanding and here's a shocker....FRIENDSHIP at such a vulnerable time in their lives. No one and I mean no one should apologize for not being strong enough to take attacks for someone else. Not everyone is mentally equiped at 14 or 15 to deal with abuse and guess what? They shouldnt have to be!!! You are in high school. A kid should be having fun, getting an education and preparing for the rest of their lives and not worrying about hiding in the bathroom scared or being called names at school, on facebook, myspace, twitter and text. Good Grief people.

If this was a racial thing and PP was being called racist names I really do think this whole situation wouldnt be about blaming the victim. So it's not o.k. to call someone the N word, but ok if she is called a w**** or s***?? I personally take offense to both!

Bullying is not, repeat NOT a rite of passage. I dont know how it became seen as so. Bullying is not good for you, doesnt build character or make you a better person. Since the dawn of friggin couples have made up, broke up and been jealous of others. I've seen it at school and at work and socially. It happens every day at many schools all over this world. So how in the world did it get this bad? I just don't know. When I was in school, there were girls that slept around and there were whispers and giggles behind their back. Same for my nephew that just graduated last year. I live in a very small town too, not that many to choose from in the dating pool, but the teens get mad and they get over it.

What PP had to go thru was beyond teasing or bullying it was purposeful, direct and once again poor Pheobe was out numbered. One girl hatin on her is one thing, but a group of people? How is that fair??? How could she stand a chance??? Has any of them apologized or even expressed remorse for their actions? Or have they just made it seem like no big deal? That speaks volumes more than anything. It's as if none of them even care. I hope someone gets tried and sentenced on any charge. This has to stop.

raeann
04-12-2010, 01:45 PM
I posted a link about the scarf in here. In the article the neighbor is interviewed and he said LE were everywhere.

Seems like there MUST have been some media around then....unless they were kept too far away to get any pictures at all. It would have been close to dark at that time of year, so maybe there just are no pictures that show the area the LE activity was centered on the property.

jmo

Paladine
04-12-2010, 01:47 PM
Interesting - except Austin didn't go to SHHS - he went to Springfield. At the moment I don't think it's clear how they met. Also, Austin's sister (or someone who is widely believed to be Austin's sister) commented on someone's facebook status the day Phoebe died that when she told him that Phoebe died he told her why she did it and started laughing.

I too thought that he was just an innocent bystander - just someone Phoebe had a fling with after her and SM broke up. However I'm beginning to think he was a pretty sucky person, as well. JMO! :)

I don't know what to think of Austin, yet. That comment by the sister is disconcerting, but some sisters and brothers misunderstand and dislike each other, at times, I've found. And teenaged boys are are to read. They do sometimes laugh when uncomfortable, imo. Mine does, anyways.

I am not excusing Austin. At all. I just don't know enough about his part in this.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 01:57 PM
wonderful post, burbqueen...thanks for sharing.

I was/am a sensitive person, too and I prefer sensitive people as friends. We feel more. It adds another dimension. I would think there are many of us online and on this forum. Sensitive people tend to enjoy time alone, I've found....recharging. Feeling everything in this world can be exhausting. I try to consider these things when I think of Phoebe. It seems to me, she was sensitive, too.

so...from me to you...*HUGS*...did you feel that, my friend? ;)

Paladine
04-12-2010, 02:09 PM
maybe see if there are yearbook photos on austin. and he may not be at SHHS, now...he may have been 1 of the ones "removed"....his pic, that's in the media, appears to be a yearbook pic to me, where'd the media get it?...

burbqueen
04-12-2010, 02:13 PM
thanks paladine. I just feel that sensative people get a bad rap. You can be sensative and not weak. I'm not sensative at all now and feel it has been kind "beaten" out of me thru my experiences in my life, but I am a loner. My sensativity expresses itself in other ways. I am always quick to speak up for the underdog or those that are too scared to defend themselves.

I just feel that no one should apologize for being different or more heart felt than others. We humans have all types of personalities.

thebear14
04-12-2010, 02:43 PM
Do we have proof of that...? Not to call you out, I've just never seen it. I knew he lived in Springfield but I assumed he went to SHHS.

It's okay - you can call me out :) just doing a quick search I couldn't find proof that he went to Springfield, but also couldn't find proof that he went to SHHS. He's also the only one that doesn't live in South Hadley. I'll try to search more though. I must have read something to be under the assumption he went to another high school or else I would have assumed he went to the same school as the others.

About his sister - it's very true that she might just be saying stuff to make him look bad. It's just such a serious matter though, I can't imagine even if she didn't like him that she would say something like that, and on the day Phoebe died. Maybe she misunderstood his actions, it's completely possible. I guess until we have more information it's just impossible to know for sure.

ETA: found this quick quote from run4chocolate's blog Austin Renaud is not from South Hadley so I exclude him from this call for formal expulsion from SHHS.. Sorry nothing more official but I'm at work so can't research as much as usual ;)

ETA AGAIN!: to post the link ;) http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/expel-all-8-south-hadley-students-indicted-in-the-death-of-phoebe-prince/

thebear14
04-12-2010, 02:53 PM
I was/am a sensitive person, too and I prefer sensitive people as friends. We feel more. It adds another dimension. I would think there are many of us online and on this forum. Sensitive people tend to enjoy time alone, I've found....recharging. Feeling everything in this world can be exhausting. I try to consider these things when I think of Phoebe. It seems to me, she was sensitive, too.


I agree so much. Being sensitive IS so exhausting - and I do need A LOT of alone time to recharge often. and yes, I do believe Phoebe was sensitive. A lot of the things she apparently said as far as not being a tough girl, not knowing how to fight, just wanting to be left alone - are definitely things I could see myself saying. she likely took a lot of the things these girls said to heart. I'm sure she tried to block or ignore quite a bit of it as well, but the constant onslaught of insults likely just got right to her.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 03:26 PM
I agree so much. Being sensitive IS so exhausting - and I do need A LOT of alone time to recharge often. and yes, I do believe Phoebe was sensitive. A lot of the things she apparently said as far as not being a tough girl, not knowing how to fight, just wanting to be left alone - are definitely things I could see myself saying. she likely took a lot of the things these girls said to heart. I'm sure she tried to block or ignore quite a bit of it as well, but the constant onslaught of insults likely just got right to her.

So true. That's why I am not closed to the idea it was suicide.

But I had a thought last night, after reading that piece about county clare and their attitude about suicide. I wondered if Phoebe was Catholic or Protestant...my late Husband was Irish Catholic....and I do not know how things are in Ireland of late, although I did see a possible IRA bombing reported yesterday, I believe. Could her religion have been a reason for other difficulties in Ireland, if there we're difficulties?

elle1919
04-12-2010, 03:32 PM
Hi everyone. I am trying to catch up, I have been looking for the court documents so that I could read them and I am not having a whole lot of luck. Were the full pages of documents released or just the snippets that I read here: http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/court_documents_detail_hurtful.html

I had an idea that others visiting our site might be able to benefit from a documents thread( no discussion), maybe branch out into a couple of threads or something like that? This one thread is moving so quickly and you all have done such a great job in keeping the articles updated, but maybe if we put a media links thread for Phoebe in(no discussion) then the documents thread, I don't know, I have a feeling when this case really gets busy in trial and stuff we are going to wish we didn't have to search for stuff. What does everyone think?

Paladine
04-12-2010, 03:35 PM
Here's the dox link, elle.:)
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia2.wwlp.com%2Fstorydocume nts%2Fsouthhadleyteenindictments.PDF&h=441b7115e4a93080d295b74d7904a3e5

ETA direct link...not through fb...
http://media2.wwlp.com/storydocuments/southhadleyteenindictments.PDF

elle1919
04-12-2010, 03:36 PM
A ha....found some I think. I wonder if i should ask a mod about the new threads.

thebear14
04-12-2010, 03:50 PM
So true. That's why I am not closed to the idea it was suicide.

But I had a thought last night, after reading that piece about county clare and their attitude about suicide. I wondered if Phoebe was Catholic or Protestant...my late Husband was Irish Catholic....and I do not know how things are in Ireland of late, although I did see a possible IRA bombing reported yesterday, I believe. Could her religion have been a reason for other difficulties in Ireland, if there we're difficulties?

I'm pretty sure she was catholic. One of the pictures released is of her and Lauren at I think her first communion. Also in Ireland I believe they had a mass for her. It could have been a difficulty. It has also been mentioned that because Phoebe was actually born in England and not Ireland that may also have been a factor, although I've only seen that discussed as comments to articles and not actually articles. The difficulty in the other school is another issue that would be nice to figure out.

elle1919
04-12-2010, 03:53 PM
All these kids are being charged as juveniles and as youthful offenders?

Paladine
04-12-2010, 04:05 PM
All these kids are being charged as juveniles and as youthful offenders?
The older three are being charged as adults, I think?? Anyone, feel free to pipe up. The younger 3, youthful offenders, on some charges...me and US law ;)...I try.
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12280581
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0409/1224267974777.html

Laurence
04-12-2010, 04:09 PM
I'm pretty sure she was catholic. One of the pictures released is of her and Lauren at I think her first communion. Also in Ireland I believe they had a mass for her. It could have been a difficulty. It has also been mentioned that because Phoebe was actually born in England and not Ireland that may also have been a factor, although I've only seen that discussed as comments to articles and not actually articles. The difficulty in the other school is another issue that would be nice to figure out.

Agree that she must have been Catholic, the funeral in the US was also referred to as a Mass.

The boarding school she attended in Ireland, Villiers, is official Protestant but they do not limit admissions to that.

Laurence
04-12-2010, 04:10 PM
The older three are being charged as adults, I think?? Anyone, feel free to pipe up. The younger 3, youthful offenders, on some charges...me and US law ;)...I try.
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12280581
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0409/1224267974777.html

The charges documents released so far are only for the younger three. The ones for the Narey and the two boys have not been released yet.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 04:12 PM
I'd love a link or dox thread, elle...it'd be much easier to re-find links...I wait to see others thoughts on that...

Paladine
04-12-2010, 04:14 PM
The charges documents released so far are only for the younger three. The ones for the Mullins and the two boys have not been released yet.
And why is that? I want to know why their papers were not released. Some say, maybe it's because of the rape charges involving a minor. But Narey isn't charged with rape! WHY?

Laurence
04-12-2010, 04:22 PM
And why is that? I want to know why their papers were not released. Some say, maybe it's because of the rape charges involving a minor. But Narey isn't charged with rape! WHY?

I've asked in a couple of places and haven't gotten a satisfactory answer. The two best guesses I've come across are either that its delayed or not coming out because these are adult charges, the other is because of the rape charges. Since Narey's has not been released maybe it's related to being adult charges?

Any lawyers lurking? :)

Paladine
04-12-2010, 04:46 PM
Alleged bullies likely being tutored
Updated: Monday, 12 Apr 2010, 4:09 PM EDT
Published : Monday, 12 Apr 2010, 4:09 PM EDT

SOUTH HADLEY, Mass. (WWLP) - All six students who allegedly bullied Phoebe Prince before she committed suicide are no longer at South Hadley High School.

Some of the students left South Hadley High School on their own and others were "removed." But, the superintendent wouldn't clarify whether that meant they were suspended or expelled.
We tried to contact the Superintendent of South Hadley's public schools today to find out if any of the six students involved in the Phoebe Prince case have been expelled. He did not return our phone calls.

expelled, suspended, OR...did they just leave?
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/Alleged-bullies-likely-being-tutored

Paladine
04-12-2010, 05:14 PM
there is a comment on this article by Sara. She was also bullied, she says. Her account is worth a read, imo...
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-end-bullying-20100412,0,2452464.story

elle1919
04-12-2010, 05:26 PM
For anyone interested I sent a message to Daisy7 and she is looking into getting a sub forum started for Phoebe so that we can all stay organized. She said she will come in and update so hold off on the doc threads and media link threads for now. Just wanted to let everyone know. : )

Paladine
04-12-2010, 05:26 PM
my goodness! look at the pic...there's another door, I think. On the rear of the house...to the LEFT of the photo?...see that big dark door-like shape on the back of the house? Wonder if that's an entry, too...it's making sense, to me, I think...where her body MAY have been, anyways...

thebear14
04-12-2010, 05:32 PM
I've asked in a couple of places and haven't gotten a satisfactory answer. The two best guesses I've come across are either that its delayed or not coming out because these are adult charges, the other is because of the rape charges. Since Narey's has not been released maybe it's related to being adult charges?

Any lawyers lurking? :)

this confuses me. if the juvenile indictments came out, why would the adult ones not come out? you would think it would be the other way around, that the charges against the juveniles would be less likely to come out. as I said before, for some reason I just don't think it's because of the stat. rape charges. I may be completely wrong on that though. it's just for the stat. rape charges all I think it would do would be confirm it or what evidence they have of it. it's not like it's going to be graphic or anything, you know? and the statutory rape charges have already been brought so automatically everyone obviously assumes she had sex with the two of them. I may be completely wrong about that, as I said, but that's just my thinking about it.

oh and didn't mean to come across as yelling at you ;) obviously you know as much as I do about why the documents for the older three haven't been released, and that's basically nothing, just rumors. I just feel like if we found out more about the relationships with the boys we could have a bit of a clearer picture about one thing anyway.

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 05:33 PM
Alleged bullies likely being tutored
Updated: Monday, 12 Apr 2010, 4:09 PM EDT
Published : Monday, 12 Apr 2010, 4:09 PM EDT




expelled, suspended, OR...did they just leave?
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/Alleged-bullies-likely-being-tutored

Well Dogface Sharon's mom pulled her out. I'm sure the others were asked to leave. Well maybe not with the way Sayer is acting. It's like he wants to cover something up.

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 05:36 PM
He said all 6 are no longer at SHHS. Does this confirm Austin goes to SHHS?

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 05:40 PM
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/south-hadley-ma/TJV2Q6M96LPA8JUTD

I think the other 3 are named in the comments, the first comment.

WaddupYo
04-12-2010, 05:46 PM
Andy cT-posted Jan 17

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/south-hadley-ma/TED5OJRIKHNRH54LA

I work with a kid who was close to her. he has shown me provacative text messages that she sent him. When I saw the news last night, I immesiatly put 2 and 2 together. When I sAw him@ work today I asked him if he was okay and or whatever. He told me that she texted him before she took her own life, that on her walk home from school today, a car drove past jet and either the passenger and or the driver hung there heads out the wind and yelled sexual derrogatory remarks at her. According to my source.whom I know is 100% accurate. They called her a whore; ect. Those are the fact. It's none of my business

Another further down the page

Thank you for being one of the first ones to mention that guys are also responsible here. GUYS do exactly what you pointed out: after they have sex with a girl, they frequently toss her aside and then call HER a slut or a whore. This girl was called horrible names by a boy with whom she had sex, after his girlfriend found out about it. Instead of apologizing for his behavior, he blamed Phoebe and called her a dirty slut, but there is a societal expectation that men can abuse women. There is no media attention drawn to it because it is just the way we live here. When girls get mad at girls for moving in on their guy, the media calls it a "case of untouchable mean girls," and starts a witch hunt. Thank you, thank you thank you for speaking the truth and opening up people's eyes to another angle to bullying.

AndyRyan
04-12-2010, 05:56 PM
So true. That's why I am not closed to the idea it was suicide.

But I had a thought last night, after reading that piece about county clare and their attitude about suicide. I wondered if Phoebe was Catholic or Protestant...my late Husband was Irish Catholic....and I do not know how things are in Ireland of late, although I did see a possible IRA bombing reported yesterday, I believe. Could her religion have been a reason for other difficulties in Ireland, if there we're difficulties?

I actually live in a small town about 45 miles from Co. Clare and from my experience religion wouldn't create any problems, there are a lot of Protestants living here and absolutely it doesn't create any divides in the community. Also it would really be the older (much older) generation that would (and certainly not always) still hold on to those beliefs concerning suicide, abortion, sex outside marriage etc. I also moved from the UK with my family when i was young (I think Phoebe was very young when they moved) and that was also never an issue especially as we all grew up with irish accents etc. so it wouldn't have been apparent.

Hope that helps...

MaureenN
04-12-2010, 06:07 PM
And why is that? I want to know why their papers were not released. Some say, maybe it's because of the rape charges involving a minor. But Narey isn't charged with rape! WHY?

The released documents appear to be a request for joinder (i.e. combining) of the youthful offender indictments with the delinquency complaints. This would avoid the courts having to hear and decide on charges that are, basically, the same (or that will make the same argument, present the same evidence to be decided on), but that are brought by different agencies (or charged under different statutes).

Under 'Issue Presented', the ones released read:
Whether the Youthful Offender Indictments charging the defendant with ... has a sufficient temporal & schematic nexus {happens at the same time or place as} or shows a common course of conduct or series of criminal episodes connected together {includes the same series of events or behaviors} so as to render joinder of these youthful offender indictments with the delinquency complaints charging her with disturbance of school assembly, criminal harassment & violation of civil rights with bodily injury resulting?


So, I don't think we've seen any of the actual charges, complaints or indictments yet, for any of the defendants. We (well, I, anyway) have only seen this one type of document saying "Should we just try all of this at the same time, despite the fact that the charges & indictments may come from different places or different statutes?"

Paladine
04-12-2010, 06:28 PM
I actually live in a small town about 45 miles from Co. Clare and from my experience religion wouldn't create any problems, there are a lot of Protestants living here and absolutely it doesn't create any divides in the community. Also it would really be the older (much older) generation that would (and certainly not always) still hold on to those beliefs concerning suicide, abortion, sex outside marriage etc. I also moved from the UK with my family when i was young (I think Phoebe was very young when they moved) and that was also never an issue especially as we all grew up with irish accents etc. so it wouldn't have been apparent.

Hope that helps...
That helps more than you know. Thank you, Andy...:blowkiss:

And it's very good to hear tensions haved lowered...people deserve to live in peace.

MaureenN
04-12-2010, 06:34 PM
I actually live in a small town about 45 miles from Co. Clare and from my experience religion wouldn't create any problems, there are a lot of Protestants living here and absolutely it doesn't create any divides in the community. Also it would really be the older (much older) generation that would (and certainly not always) still hold on to those beliefs concerning suicide, abortion, sex outside marriage etc. I also moved from the UK with my family when i was young (I think Phoebe was very young when they moved) and that was also never an issue especially as we all grew up with irish accents etc. so it wouldn't have been apparent.

Hope that helps...

I lived in Letterkenny in Co Donegal, about 20 years ago. Even then, even being that close to the border, the 'troubles' were mostly ignored by average people going about their days. It was a very small number of older or unemployed men who ruminated about religious or political differences. And, all of the 'young people' who lived there then (when I was a young person, too!) had more liberal beliefs about divorce, sex, etc.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 06:36 PM
Andy cT-posted Jan 17

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/south-hadley-ma/TED5OJRIKHNRH54LA

I work with a kid who was close to her. he has shown me provacative text messages that she sent him. When I saw the news last night, I immesiatly put 2 and 2 together. When I sAw him@ work today I asked him if he was okay and or whatever. He told me that she texted him before she took her own life, that on her walk home from school today, a car drove past jet and either the passenger and or the driver hung there heads out the wind and yelled sexual derrogatory remarks at her. According to my source.whom I know is 100% accurate. They called her a whore; ect. Those are the fact. It's none of my business

Another further down the page

Thank you for being one of the first ones to mention that guys are also responsible here. GUYS do exactly what you pointed out: after they have sex with a girl, they frequently toss her aside and then call HER a slut or a whore. This girl was called horrible names by a boy with whom she had sex, after his girlfriend found out about it. Instead of apologizing for his behavior, he blamed Phoebe and called her a dirty slut, but there is a societal expectation that men can abuse women. There is no media attention drawn to it because it is just the way we live here. When girls get mad at girls for moving in on their guy, the media calls it a "case of untouchable mean girls," and starts a witch hunt. Thank you, thank you thank you for speaking the truth and opening up people's eyes to another angle to bullying.

You amazing, stubborn, curious Sleuth! :) You FOUND it! :genie:
Now, there was an article that qouted a story strikingly similar to that topix comment. A Man who worked with a boy who had recieved texts. Same story but the guy was named, I think. It was a reputable site...but I CAN'T remember where...! If anyone does, kindly share. :)

ETA: Maybe even that site. The article that comment was linked to...maybe the news people from that article were contacted by him, or contacted him after that comment...a few thoughts...

Laurence
04-12-2010, 06:41 PM
oh and didn't mean to come across as yelling at you ;) obviously you know as much as I do about why the documents for the older three haven't been released, and that's basically nothing, just rumors. I just feel like if we found out more about the relationships with the boys we could have a bit of a clearer picture about one thing anyway.

Oh I could totally hear you yelling at me from... wherever the heck you are. :p

But it is confusing, because I too would have guessed that the under-age charges would have been the ones held back.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 06:52 PM
I lived in Letterkenny in Co Donegal, about 20 years ago. Even then, even being that close to the border, the 'troubles' were mostly ignored by average people going about their days. It was a very small number of older or unemployed men who ruminated about religious or political differences. And, all of the 'young people' who lived there then (when I was a young person, too!) had more liberal beliefs about divorce, sex, etc.
This is all so interesting to me. Seems some people over here, in North America, hold more resentments than the people in Ireland. My family and my late husbands family came to Canada in the 1800's, some earlier and they brought with them their resentments. They we're handed down generation to generation. I feel it inside me even abit today, to be honest. Thanks for sharing. It's eye opening, for sure.

MaureenN
04-12-2010, 06:59 PM
We had a small bomb set off in the department store in town (no injuries - only property damage after store was closed), back in the 80's when I was there. I remember chatting with a woman, pushing a stroller, on the street outside & asked her what she thought about it all. She said something along the lines of "Most people don't have time to think about all of that. We've got kids to feed, bills to pay, houses to care for..."

I keep that in mind, even now, when I think about the other radical/troubled areas of the world. I'm sure that, in some cases, some have the entire population divided. But, in most, I think that it's just the extremists causing trouble & everyone else is just trying to do all of the things that I try to do every day - be happy, healthy, prosper, learn & grow.

stmarysmead
04-12-2010, 07:04 PM
http://stmarysmead.wordpress.com/

New post and some questions for the South Hadley teachers.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 07:28 PM
He said all 6 are no longer at SHHS. Does this confirm Austin goes to SHHS?
It would, to me. But if anybody finds more confirmation, please post links...I'll keep my eye open, too...

jjenny
04-12-2010, 07:39 PM
Interesting - except Austin didn't go to SHHS - he went to Springfield. At the moment I don't think it's clear how they met. Also, Austin's sister (or someone who is widely believed to be Austin's sister) commented on someone's facebook status the day Phoebe died that when she told him that Phoebe died he told her why she did it and started laughing.

I too thought that he was just an innocent bystander - just someone Phoebe had a fling with after her and SM broke up. However I'm beginning to think he was a pretty sucky person, as well. JMO! :)

Even if that did happen, the laugh could be a defense mechanism and not a sign he was happy about it. Some people laugh when they are not happy, or something went wrong. I don't know why people assume that if someone was laughing he was happy about it, maybe just the opposite.

jjenny
04-12-2010, 07:44 PM
Well Dogface Sharon's mom pulled her out. I'm sure the others were asked to leave. Well maybe not with the way Sayer is acting. It's like he wants to cover something up.

I would think that people who are upset at bullying shouldn't be calling minor teenage girls offensive names. Otherwise I am having a really hard time believing these people are really upset at bullying.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 07:46 PM
there is a link to the "townreminder" local newsletter on this blog post from Sauer Kraut, the charges are a headline, not sure what's all in it, I haven't had the time to read it, yet...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/12/blaming-the-victim-part-i/

thebear14
04-12-2010, 07:51 PM
Even if that did happen, the laugh could be a defense mechanism and not a sign he was happy about it. Some people laugh when they are not happy, or something went wrong. I don't know why people assume that if someone was laughing he was happy about it, maybe just the opposite.

I totally agree, some people do laugh when things go wrong. She also mentioned that he was being an a****** (not sure if we're allowed to cuss) about it, so that's why I got the impression that it wasn't just an uncomfortable laughter. But she could be totally lying and I could totally be making things up in my crazy head so guess we'll never know.

adnoid
04-12-2010, 07:52 PM
Even if that did happen, the laugh could be a defense mechanism and not a sign he was happy about it...

Yeah, because when my old boss's son killed himself I laughed about it.

Oh, that's right, I didn't. Never mind.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 07:53 PM
I would think that people who are upset at bullying shouldn't be calling minor teenage girls offensive names. Otherwise I am having a really hard time believing these people are really upset at bullying.
Do you have a hankering for a link, bud?...lol...;)

Very slow news day. I'm replying to many posts, jjenny...;) Maureen has a post back a page or so about possible reasons for no dox released for the eldest. I'm going back to read it. It looked full of complicated terms, I wasn't up to it earlier. Now, with a timmy's in hand...I'm ready. ;) Would you care to give it a gander? You are smart, imo...

jjenny
04-12-2010, 07:54 PM
Yeah, because when my old boss's son killed himself I laughed about it.

Oh, that's right, I didn't. Never mind.

Not everybody reacts the same. I personally do laugh as a defense mechanism even if I am not happy. In fact I might be very unhappy but I still will laugh.

Laurence
04-12-2010, 08:02 PM
Opinion piece dated today (4/12/10) in which the author claims that the bullying in this case and others is not a crime...

http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?z=12&a=447192

For example:

If this sounds derisive, it's not because I doubt the seriousness of the conduct but because the specific counts underscore how clumsy a tool the criminal law is to deal with such behavior. Charging nine students is casting an awfully wide net.

I wonder if this person read the charge sheet we've seen for the three younger ones.

OrdinaryLife
04-12-2010, 08:04 PM
Not everybody reacts the same. I personally do laugh as a defense mechanism even if I am not happy. In fact I might be very unhappy but I still will laugh.

Even if someone you knew killed themselves? Seriously??? There is a reactional mechanism to certain situations, then there is complete sociopathic reaction to, well, as an example, a death....

imvho

Paladine
04-12-2010, 08:23 PM
I think someone who is comfortable with their emotions may show true sadness when hearing about a death. Some who aren't can cope in many ways, in my experience. Some through shutting down, some through inappropriate responses, such as giggling or laughing. My Mother is like that. She laughs when she's uncomfortable. It's protective, imo.

But there are also people who rejoice in others misery. Evil, really, imo.

I'm not sure which one Austin is...

MaureenN
04-12-2010, 08:27 PM
Opinion piece dated today (4/12/10) in which the author claims that the bullying in this case and others is not a crime...

http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?z=12&a=447192

For example:



I wonder if this person read the charge sheet we've seen for the three younger ones.

A lot of this is copied from here: http://wtop.com/?sid=1928897&nid=843

ETA... which says that it was originally printed in the Washington Post - so, I guess, it's not plagiarized, anyway - just re-ran in another post paper/online edition

jjenny
04-12-2010, 08:28 PM
Even if someone you knew killed themselves? Seriously??? There is a reactional mechanism to certain situations, then there is complete sociopathic reaction to, well, as an example, a death....

imvho

Why do you assume that everybody reacts the same way?
"Another complication, he said, is that laughter can be a response to stimuli other than humor. For some, it can be the result of stress or fear."
http://www.abc15.com/content/living/yourhealth/story/Giggle-to-your-health-How-laughter-is-good/ADkqhsMFyEmDrVRfqh_gmQ.cspx

OrdinaryLife
04-12-2010, 08:38 PM
Why do you assume that everybody reacts the same way?
"Another complication, he said, is that laughter can be a response to stimuli other than humor. For some, it can be the result of stress or fear."
http://www.abc15.com/content/living/yourhealth/story/Giggle-to-your-health-How-laughter-is-good/ADkqhsMFyEmDrVRfqh_gmQ.cspx

Assume? Not so much. There is inappropriate laughter in certain situations, absolutely. Gawd knows, been there and have done that. Then, there is laughter that is completely and simply wrong. The tragic death of someone (or any death of a human being), in my opinion, rates right up there as wrong on so many levels.

imvho

MaureenN
04-12-2010, 08:38 PM
Why do you assume that everybody reacts the same way?
"Another complication, he said, is that laughter can be a response to stimuli other than humor. For some, it can be the result of stress or fear."
http://www.abc15.com/content/living/yourhealth/story/Giggle-to-your-health-How-laughter-is-good/ADkqhsMFyEmDrVRfqh_gmQ.cspx

You should have heard the cracking up that was happening during the serious part of my dad's funeral. We all just needed a release.

And we all miss him deeply, still, every day, almost 20 years later.

I agree that we can't know why Austin, supposedly, laughed. But, I think that, beyond the laughter, he also made some callous comments (reportedly) that might put the laughter in context

OrdinaryLife
04-12-2010, 08:42 PM
You should have heard the cracking up that was happening during the serious part of my dad's funeral. We all just needed a release.

And we all miss him deeply, still, every day, almost 20 years later.

I agree that we can't know why Austin, supposedly, laughed. But, I think that, beyond the laughter, he also made some callous comments (reportedly) that might put the laughter in context

I enjoyed the same with family after my Mother died and other beloved family members passed. It is a release as well as remembering/rejoicing how they touched our lives. The stories!

As far as this guy, he was not family who was touched by this precious life. This reaction by him is darker.

imvho

rsorcha
04-12-2010, 08:44 PM
You should have heard the cracking up that was happening during the serious part of my dad's funeral. We all just needed a release.

And we all miss him deeply, still, every day, almost 20 years later.

I agree that we can't know why Austin, supposedly, laughed. But, I think that, beyond the laughter, he also made some callous comments (reportedly) that might put the laughter in context

My grandmother passed away in January; at her funeral I was crying really hard, and my older brother went to put his arm around me, in the process knocking my purse to the ground. We both cracked up, in the middle of the funeral. Loudly.

That was completely off topic.


BACK ON TOPIC, maybe laughter was a defense mechanism? The whole "don't let them see you cry" thing

Paladine
04-12-2010, 10:43 PM
read post #9807....and the replies...
http://www.masslive.com/forums/southhadley/

adnoid
04-12-2010, 10:50 PM
read post #9807....and the replies...
http://www.masslive.com/forums/southhadley/

Off topic - they sure seem to have gone with the low bidder for the message board system. It's awful.

Paladine
04-12-2010, 11:06 PM
I AM ANGRY. This is the same :loser: as before, covered by the Boston Herald. I'd bet there are many people who will feel as pissed as I am about their attitude. They seem to be unrepentant and intent on bullying everyone go away. I think they want their cesspool back. :Benny_monkeysmilies

"South Hadley teachers union president fires back at media’s ‘nasty tone’"

"The president of the South Hadley teachers union today defended the school’s handling of the Phoebe Prince bullying case and blamed the media’s “nasty tone” for cyber-threats targeting students facing criminal charges.

“Some in the media have painted a picture of South Hadley High School as a school out of control - a place where everyone knew of the bullying and no one did anything about it,” Bill O’Neil, president of the South Hadley Education Association, wrote in a letter to the Herald. “That image is just plain wrong.”

He declined to be more specific, citing “privacy considerations, investigations and court proceedings.”

O’Neil, a high school teacher and former campus safety official, said some of his members, including himself, have received threats by e-mail and phone. He said the incidents were reported to law enforcement. He described the threat he received as “generic.”

See that? They are using the fact that a few people are harassing them as an excuse to get media to back off. Back off. That means they could slow/decrease reporting on things they SHOULD be reporting on because it's drawing nutbars, is the reasoning...the excuse. THIS is why we can't go all Clint Eastwood on these people. They'll use it. They'll exagerate it, imo. It's to their benefit. It WILL eventually make media back off if it keeps up.

Peeps...if anyone reading this is thinking of contacting people or threatening, please don't. When I see someone doing it I try and give them a heads up...dude, it ain't helpin'. ;)

ETA: NOT that WS'ers would. http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100412south_hadley_teachers_union_president_fire s_back_at_medias_nasty_tone/srvc=home&position=recent