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daisy7
04-09-2010, 02:10 PM
Please continue here.

Thread #1: South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Paladine
04-09-2010, 02:14 PM
whew...I hope they find us..."1 member, 0 Guests"...lol...;)

Paladine
04-09-2010, 02:18 PM
Take a gander at THIS! :) Isn't that weird? I JUST said to adnoid, on the last thread, we should save this one for when officials are finally held to task! And here we are! Daisy, are you psychic?

"Governor faults S. Hadley officials in Phoebe Prince bullying case"

Governor Deval Patrick said this morning that South Hadley school officials should be "held accountable" for their handling of the bullying that preceded Phoebe Prince's suicide, describing reports that Prince had personally turned to administrators for help as "outrageous."

"I'm telling you, this is outrageous, what you and I and others are reading and hearing about this," Patrick said in a radio interview on WTKK-FM. "The more we hear, the worse it sounds."
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/04/gov_patrick_fau.html

rsorcha
04-09-2010, 02:20 PM
whew...I hope they find us..."1 member, 0 Guests"...lol...;)

Found it!

Paladine
04-09-2010, 02:24 PM
from the same link...

"Braude said he believed school officials displayed a "callous disregard" and asked Patrick if he was troubled that they haven't been charged criminally. "They should certainly be held accountable," Patrick said, later adding that "it's incredibly upsetting to me that the adults don't seem to have acted like adults."
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/04/gov_patrick_fau.html

Paladine
04-09-2010, 02:32 PM
reported video of Longe, yesterday...about 4 sec's in a big grey hoodie...it also has video of the town, I'm switching computer's to listen...might be Phoebe's street...
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO139595/

Paladine
04-09-2010, 02:38 PM
Here's a headline...
"Court filing reveals taunted teen's anguish in final hours" By Ann O'Neill, CNN
The alleged confrontations took place at South Hadley High School -- in gym and Latin classes, in the school library, in the cafeteria, in the girls' bathroom, in the hallway and on the streets outside the school. They made her anxious and tearful, classmates and friends told investigators.

Witnesses told police one of the girls "called her out," threatening to beat Prince up, the document states.

A witness is quoted in the document as telling investigators:

"She definitely didn't want to fight with the girls in the school. She just wanted to keep to herself and keep things the way they were. She wanted people to stop picking on her, to stop being bullied. She wanted people to leave her alone. She wanted people to stop spreading rumors and stop the girls from talking about her."
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/09/massachusetts.bullying.suicide/?hpt=Sbin

Paladine
04-09-2010, 02:43 PM
There's a problem...that number is high...imo...
"A CDC study also showed 14.5 percent of U.S. high school students reported seriously considering suicide during the year preceding the survey, and 6.9 percent said they had attempted suicide once or more in the same period.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63847420100409?type=technologyNews

daisy7
04-09-2010, 02:48 PM
From Paladine's link:

But Patrick said parents and other adults must also play a role in preventing bullying. Citing his support for anti-bullying legislation, he cautioned that it is "not a substitute for adults acting like adults."

That is the parents of the bully, it's other adults in the school, it's adults in the community," he said. "All of us have a responsibility to step up and deal with this."

BBM -- Great quote!!

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 02:50 PM
Oh I have a feeling many adults will be charged as well. I'm just hoping these people investigating and prosecuting don't screw this up to high hell. I'm hoping this will be taken very seriously. I've read people saying the kids didn't kill her, she killed herself and shouldn't be held accountable for. That what she did was cowardly. I hope those people eat some crow pie after these school jerks and these dispicable human beings rot.

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 02:59 PM
Interview with that nasty Gus Sayer

http://www.necn.com/pages/landing?Uncut-South-Hadley-superintendent-on-Pho=1&blockID=211605&feedID=

Paladine
04-09-2010, 03:04 PM
I know I'm a broken record, please forgive me...but ;) more confirmation it was the rear stairwell. Anyone think there could be an interior rear stairwell? Maybe inside that main floor door...? Once again, here's the house...
Later in the day, Prince's body was found hanging in a rear stairwell of her family's apartment.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04/09/us/AP-US-School-Bullying.html
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1448230840#!/photo.php?pid=23697&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=106256199412197&id=100000957224345

rsorcha
04-09-2010, 03:09 PM
I know I'm a broken record, please forgive me...but ;) more confirmation it was the rear stairwell. Anyone think there could be an interior rear stairwell? Maybe inside that main floor door...? Once again, here's the house...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04/09/us/AP-US-School-Bullying.html
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1448230840#!/photo.php?pid=23697&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=106256199412197&id=100000957224345

I feel like if it was outside, there would have been swarms of people outside and someone would have snapped a picture. not of her body, but of the police et al. outside, so I'm still thinking inside.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 03:13 PM
How'd we miss this? It's from a week ago...look at what prosecutors are telling Irish papers...and this was before the latest revelations...

"Staff at Phoebe's school could face charges "

"THE possibility of legal charges against staff in a US school where an Irish girl was bullied before she committed suicide has not been ruled out, prosecutors told the Irish Independent last night.
The disclosure came as a district attorney charged nine students -- including seven girls -- with offences including civil rights violations, statutory rape, stalking and inflicting bodily injury to Phoebe Prince.

Prosecutors claim some staff at the Massachusetts school attended by Phoebe (15), who grew up in Fanore, Co Clare, knew of the bullying -- which took place in person and on social networking sites -- but did nothing to stop the students involved."
"When asked if teaching staff could still face charges over the case, a spokesperson for Ms Scheibel told the Irish Independent last night: "We do not know what the future will hold. Nothing can be ruled out at this stage," she said.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/staff-at-phoebes-school-could-face-charges-2118116.html

Laurence
04-09-2010, 03:16 PM
I know I'm a broken record, please forgive me...but ;) more confirmation it was the rear stairwell. Anyone think there could be an interior rear stairwell? Maybe inside that main floor door...? Once again, here's the house...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04/09/us/AP-US-School-Bullying.html
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1448230840#!/photo.php?pid=23697&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=106256199412197&id=100000957224345

You may be onto something... The door on the bottom may go in and lead to stairs inside along the back of the house.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 03:19 PM
UPI's take..."Prince asked school officials for help"

"SOUTH HADLEY, Mass., April 9 (UPI) -- Administrators at a Massachusetts high school did not listen to a teen's plea for help against bullying a week before she took her life, prosecutors said.

Phoebe Prince's seeking help from South Hadley High School administrators about the bullying was made public for the first time Thursday in court documents filed as three former classmates pleaded not guilty to charges of tormenting the high school freshman, The Boston Globe reported Friday."
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/04/09/Prince-asked-school-officials-for-help/UPI-22321270839187/

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 03:20 PM
AWESOME blog

http://ishouldbelaughing.blogspot.com/2010/04/phoebe-prince.html

Paladine
04-09-2010, 03:20 PM
You may be onto something... The door on the bottom may go in and lead to stairs inside along the back of the house.
That's what I'm hoping.

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 03:25 PM
Inside during the arraignment I guess?

http://videos.masslive.com/republican/2010/04/teens_arraigned_in_hadley_ma.html

Paladine
04-09-2010, 03:37 PM
Not trying to morbid, folks. Just trying to collect info on Phoebe's death, too...this is Salon, they are respectable, imo.
And so, when Phoebe Prince arrived home that afternoon, she went to the top of her stairwell, put a noose around her neck, and jumped.
So, this tells me any interior stairwell would need to have a railing or an open space of some kind to jump over...?
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2010/03/30/phoebe_prince_cyberbullying/index.html

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 03:45 PM
Ok I just read on this site
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1245831

It says

The court papers describe in chilling forensic terms how Prince died and how investigators found her. They were called to her home about 5 p.m. on Jan. 14, where they found the “lifeless body of a white female, hanging in the rear stairwell of the apartment.” A day later, an autopsy found a “a ligature mark about the neck of Ms. Prince,” according those court papers. The medical examiner said Phoebe died from “asphyxia due to hanging and the manner of death was suicide.”

Paladine
04-09-2010, 03:48 PM
read this comment, scroll down the page, it questions to possibility of suicide and says she was outside...whatever that means.
Look for> Anonymous Coward
User ID: 679335
United States

Haven't read through the whole thread, yet...
http://www.***********************/forum1/message1025894/pg1

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 04:11 PM
I just read on this FB page that a meeting was supposed to take place at the school about bullying after Phoebe went to heaven but was canceled?!

http://www.facebook.com/search/?ref=search&q=Kayla%20Narey&init=quick#!/pages/South-Hadley-MA/South-Hadley-MA/227044164122?ref=search&sid=100000549273769.513703586..1

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 04:23 PM
Another kid on FB has come forth and said he told Sayer and Dan Smith he was harassed many times and Sayer didn't do a thing!
http://www.facebook.com/search/?flt=1&q=south+hadley&o=65&sid=100000549273769.239466296..1&s=10#!/group.php?v=wall&story_fbid=115411221806686&gid=115317058482769

Paladine
04-09-2010, 04:34 PM
Info on Dr. Sexton who did the autopsy...From this link, about a different case, they say he is a Dr. of osteopathy but he's also the pathologist...I notice alot of Sexton's in South Hadley...his office is in Holyoke. Not sure where he lives...
An initial death certificate did not list a cause, pending further investigation. The final certificate, which came from the Holyoke office of the district medical examiner, was signed on Aug. 28 by Andrew W. Sexton, a doctor of osteopathy.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/medical_examiner_confirms_ware.html
Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel's statement on Prince death

Laurence
04-09-2010, 04:47 PM
Not trying to morbid, folks. Just trying to collect info on Phoebe's death, too...this is Salon, they are respectable, imo.

So, this tells me any interior stairwell would need to have a railing or an open space of some kind to jump over...?
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2010/03/30/phoebe_prince_cyberbullying/index.html

It has to be an interior stairwell. If she had been outside it would have been news... plus that house is pretty exposed if you look at it from the Google Street view (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=south+hadley+,+ma&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=25.761936,66.445312&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=South+Hadley&ll=42.231036,-72.58579&spn=0,0.008111&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.230894,-72.585863&panoid=1UnNY00JEtMNgjlvcct1eA&cbp=12,352.75,,0,-1.95).

If that link works you should see the house from the main street, you can see the side stairs from the road really easily.

raeann
04-09-2010, 04:51 PM
Did anyone catch the comments by the bullying "expert" that presented programs at the school both before and after this series of events in her interview on Dr. Phil? She stated that numerous students reported to her that after Phoebe's death this group of students----who WERE still in school----repeatedly walked around and sat in classes pantomiming hanging themselves and laughing about it!!!!!

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 05:05 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6173960-504083.html

Says she hanged herself in her closet

Paladine
04-09-2010, 05:08 PM
Boston Globe journo wrote back...KUDOS to him. All media should be so responsive, imo. He's not sure, either, it seems...he assumes it's indoors...

"Thanks for your reply. I belong to a crime forum and it's still not clear. Was she out of doors, around back? Or inside the building, in a stairwell, in the front? Thanks so much for your time.
""hanging in the rear stairwell of the apartment" it says in the latest
court dox.
I think that means inside
---------------------------
Peter Schworm
The Boston Globe
617-929-3056
schworm@globe.com

Paladine
04-09-2010, 05:14 PM
Did anyone catch the comments by the bullying "expert" that presented programs at the school both before and after this series of events in her interview on Dr. Phil? She stated that numerous students reported to her that after Phoebe's death this group of students----who WERE still in school----repeatedly walked around and sat in classes pantomiming hanging themselves and laughing about it!!!!!
Have not seen it, yet! Wow...unfreakenbelievable!

Boyz_Mum
04-09-2010, 05:20 PM
Did anyone catch the comments by the bullying "expert" that presented programs at the school both before and after this series of events in her interview on Dr. Phil? She stated that numerous students reported to her that after Phoebe's death this group of students----who WERE still in school----repeatedly walked around and sat in classes pantomiming hanging themselves and laughing about it!!!!!

If this is true (I'm not doubting you raeann) this has got to be a group of very sick animals, I mean disturbed kids. JMO.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 05:21 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6173960-504083.html

Says she hanged herself in her closet

"Prince kept walking to her house, straight to her closet, and hanged herself."
NOW...I'd really like to know more about that. WHO told the reporter it was a closet and if they did lie, why did they lie? Seems to have been alot of confusion in the beginning. I wonder if the media story was going to be a closet, a wardrobe...until the investigation got out of hand and the truth of the stairwell had to come out. Look at the deceptive media practices O'Brien told Cullen he was facing? He said something to the effect of a cover up. There is no report, I could find, anywhere, on whether she was inside or outside. Maybe it didn't make news for the same reason Dan Smiths investigation uncovered so little. Maybe, they didn't want it to. I'm just feeling very suspicious. And I can't shake it.

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 05:27 PM
Ok I think I found the Kayla facebook with the new name..is it ok to post?

I looked through her fan pages and she's a fan of one of the memorial pages for Phoebe. So is it possible that it's not her?

daisy7
04-09-2010, 05:39 PM
Hi, all -

The parents/family members of the accused have not been charged with any crimes and have not been named in the media (except one that I know of). Please do not link to their FB or MS pages, or any other sleuthing you may have done on them.

Linking to these pages for minors that have been charged AND their names have been in the media is ok for now. Linking to FB/MS pages of any other minors is a definite no-no, in a big way.

Also, when linking to comments on FB, blogs, etc., please just paraphase the comment, link to the page and let other posters know how to see it (i.e., comment #x, posted by x, etc .).

Feel free to copy and paste from news articles, as long as you give a link.

Thanks!

Laurence
04-09-2010, 05:48 PM
I'm just feeling very suspicious. And I can't shake it.

Are you thinking she didn't kill herself? Or that they are just hiding some gruesome aspect of it?

I didn't think any of these kids were necessarily well connected. Any kind of cover up would have to have been from the very instant she was found, which seems rather difficult.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 05:50 PM
I sent that journo the link to my post with the pics of the house. I hope it intrigues him enough to check it out...lol...;) I'm TOO curious.

raeann
04-09-2010, 05:51 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6173960-504083.html

Says she hanged herself in her closet

It is quite possible that when some media put together their story by "google" facts, that they got this story mixed up with that of Megan Meier.....she WAS found in her closet as I recall.


jmoo

WaddupYo
04-09-2010, 05:51 PM
I won't link the page daisy :)

Paladine
04-09-2010, 06:21 PM
Are you thinking she didn't kill herself? Or that they are just hiding some gruesome aspect of it?

I didn't think any of these kids were necessarily well connected. Any kind of cover up would have to have been from the very instant she was found, which seems rather difficult.

I have no idea, Lawrence. Right now, I just want to know where she was found.

We do have links showing a police officer is parent of one of Sean's football teammates. The link to the pic is back around pg 20, 1st thread, give or take 10 pgs. ;)
And an officer was stationed at the school. We have a link for that, too. He hasn't said too much. I have also read RUMOR that one or more of the kids have a lawyer for a parent.

And maybe not necessarily a cover up, per se...maybe just conveniently shoddy police work...if she was indoors or outdoors, will tell me more...

Laurence
04-09-2010, 06:25 PM
I have no idea, Lawrence. Right now, I just want to know where she was found.

We do have links showing a police officer is parent of one of Sean's football teammates. The link to the pic is back around pg 20, give or take 10 pgs. ;)
And an officer was stationed at the school. We have a link foir that, too. He hasn't said too much. I have also read RUMOR that one or more of the kids have a lawyer for a parent.

And maybe not necessarily a cover up, per se...maybe just conveniently shoddy police work...if she was indoors or outdoors, will tell me more...

Understood. I have also heard that one of the parents is a lawyer. Some references on the South Hadley masslive forums (mostly a shouting match these days) are that some of the defendants lawyers that have been brought in are biggish names.

irie
04-09-2010, 06:55 PM
I have also heard that one of the parents is a lawyer.

One of the parents went through law school but did not pass the bar exam.

AndyRyan
04-09-2010, 06:56 PM
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/22News-cameras-capture-S.-Hadley-'six'

Paladine
04-09-2010, 07:03 PM
Are you thinking she didn't kill herself? Or that they are just hiding some gruesome aspect of it?

I didn't think any of these kids were necessarily well connected. Any kind of cover up would have to have been from the very instant she was found, which seems rather difficult.

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/22News-cameras-capture-S.-Hadley-'six'
Hey Andy! :Welcome-12-june: Good to see you with us...

A friendly heads up...something's funky with your link. It seems to be broken, page doesn't exist?

Paladine
04-09-2010, 07:18 PM
Masslive wraps up the doc release...and does a very good job, imo, they detail the events...
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/court_documents_outline_allege.html

Paladine
04-09-2010, 07:32 PM
"FORMER TEACHER SPEAKS"
Shock and sadness still run deep in the Prince's hometown in Ireland, where Phoebe lived prior to moving to Massachusetts last summer. Her former teacher, Breege Queally, said Prince was an outstanding student, and never had any problems with her classmates.

"She was self-motivated...very, very, very creative. Loved to achieve...and had no problems with the other girls or boys," Quaelly said.
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO139595/

also better video of Ashley...

Paladine
04-09-2010, 07:42 PM
Things are heating up again on craiglist...
http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/

Laurence
04-09-2010, 07:48 PM
Things are heating up again on craiglist...
http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/

Been following that off and on for the past week or so. You've gotta mine pretty deep to find interesting stuff... did you spot something in particular?

Paladine
04-09-2010, 07:48 PM
This post is amazing to me. Because Mulveyhill set up at church, knew his hymns, and volunteered for Palin, we should all just stop being so hard on Sean...or so this so-called friend says...seems this person is trying to make it political, liberal vs republican, I guess...

To me, this is about right and wrong. And I, too, AM a Christian.

http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/1683507749.html

Paladine
04-09-2010, 07:49 PM
Been following that off and on for the past week or so. You've gotta mine pretty deep to find interesting stuff... did you spot something in particular?
I posted the link to one...and I'm still reading.

thebear14
04-09-2010, 07:50 PM
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO139595/

also better video of Ashley...

Nice to hear from a former teacher, but also very sad. No matter how many times I read articles summarizing the indictments it never fails to make me feel physically ill and very upset. Their actions were just so despicable.

jjenny
04-09-2010, 07:50 PM
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO139595/

also better video of Ashley...

Saying she did super-great in Ireland and never had any problems there doesn't exactly jive with the claims that her relative warned the school she was prone to being bullied.

Laurence
04-09-2010, 07:52 PM
I posted the link to one...and I'm still reading.

Yeah, I brilliantly noticed the link right AFTER I responded. Sorry, lol. :banghead:

thebear14
04-09-2010, 07:56 PM
This post is amazing to me. Because Mulveyhill set up at church, knew his hymns, and volunteered for Palin, we should all just stop being so hard on Sean...or so this so-called friend says...seems this person is trying to make it political, liberal vs republican, I guess...

To me, this is about right and wrong. And I, too, AM a Christian.

http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/1683507749.html

I've seen people bringing politics into this more than once and it makes no sense to me. What difference does it make what political party these kids volunteer for or who the current president is? What they did is horrendous either way. I'm guessing that if he volunteered for Obama it would be "well, he did volunteer for Obama so we must have known something was off with him". oy, give me a break. This is not what this is about at all. A young girl lost her life and I personally feel the actions of these 6 individuals played an enormous part in that. Even if she did have other troubles that we don't know about, and I'm not saying she did or didn't, the torment and harassment she endured from these 6 upstanding individuals are what pushed her over the edge.

Laurence
04-09-2010, 07:56 PM
Saying she did super-great in Ireland and never had any problems there doesn't exactly jive with the claims that her relative warned the school she was prone to being bullied.

The interview with the teacher in Ireland shows a very tiny school. I have read in a couple of places that Phoebe had attended the Villiers boarding school for a couple of years, but was pulled out (no reason given in what I read) and put in the school where her mom worked.

Then they moved to the US.

If there were "reasons" she was pulled out of the boarding school, she may not have been at this smaller one long enough for them to come up, or being in school where her mother was may have helped prevent them.

Edited to add: I read this before I was following closely enough to copy links and such, so I appologize for not being able to link where I got this from.

Laurence
04-09-2010, 07:59 PM
I've seen people bringing politics into this more than once and it makes no sense to me. What difference does it make what political party these kids volunteer for or who the current president is? What they did is horrendous either way. I'm guessing that if he volunteered for Obama it would be "well, he did volunteer for Obama so we must have known something was off with him". oy, give me a break. This is not what this is about at all. A young girl lost her life and I personally feel the actions of these 6 individuals played an enormous part in that. Even if she did have other troubles that we don't know about, and I'm not saying she did or didn't, the torment and harassment she endured from these 6 upstanding individuals are what pushed her over the edge.

People are just looking for excuses to fight, and doing this is a real easy way to cause trouble and blame things on people they don't like.

jjenny
04-09-2010, 08:00 PM
The interview with the teacher in Ireland shows a very tiny school. I have read in a couple of places that Phoebe had attended the Villiers boarding school for a couple of years, but was pulled out (no reason given in what I read) and put in the school where her mom worked.

Then they moved to the US.

If there were "reasons" she was pulled out of the boarding school, she may not have been at this smaller one long enough for them to come up, or being in school where her mother was may have helped prevent them.

Edited to add: I read this before I was following closely enough to copy links and such, so I appologize for not being able to link where I got this from.

Good point. Because based on the claims that her relative warned the school Phoebe was prone to be bullied I imagine she did have issues with being bullied back in Ireland at some point of time.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 08:09 PM
From the U.K.
"School ignored plea for help from suicide girl Phoebe Prince"
"On her final day Phoebe faced a torrent of abuse on three separate occasions: in the school library, in the school auditorium at the end of the school day and on her way home.

As she walked home one of the teenage defendants allegedly threw an empty can of Monster Drink at her from a passing car and yelled “Wh*re”.

Ms Prince’s family has moved out of the area since Phoebe was found hanging by a scarf over the staircase at their home by her 12-year-old sister.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7093729.ece

AndyRyan
04-09-2010, 08:15 PM
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/22News-cameras-capture-S.-Hadley-'six'. Sorry copy and pasted again, hope this works..

AndyRyan
04-09-2010, 08:19 PM
Sorry just clicked on link and it doesn't appear to work, not sure why but if you go to WWLP.com site you will see it there

Paladine
04-09-2010, 08:58 PM
Saying she did super-great in Ireland and never had any problems there doesn't exactly jive with the claims that her relative warned the school she was prone to being bullied.
Maybe she was a sensitive kid, one who may have been picked on before...but it doesn't mean she was necessarily a wreck because of it. Maybe in a controlled classroom, there weren't problems. O'Brien did say the problems she had were nothing to this degree.

Laurence
04-09-2010, 09:05 PM
Maybe she was a sensitive kid...

Through the very dry and clinical description of events in that charges PDF regarding that last day, I get the impression she really was. Can you imagine being so terrified that you ask others if you can walk in the middle of them through the halls?

This whole story get more and more awful.

I'm actually dreading what we're going to read if they release another PDF with details on the charges for the other three.

raeann
04-09-2010, 09:05 PM
Kids can be popular, beautiful, smart, and highly successful and STILL be bullied. The two girls on the Dr. Phil show attest to that, class president, valedictorian, scholarships, cheerleader etc.......she was STILL bullied to the point of changing schools right before her graduation.

jmoo

Paladine
04-09-2010, 09:07 PM
"Bullying is not a rite of passage"

By Renee Ordway
Special to the NEWS

Sometimes we learn how to behave by watching the examples of those around us.

Sometimes we learn how not to behave.

Gus isn’t coming across so well.
"Gus has been busy since he got back from vacation last week, holding interviews and telling reporters that there was little the school could have done to intervene in the bullying.

Two girls were disciplined a week before Prince died, and Gus told the media that to “our knowledge the action taken was effective in ending their involvement in any bullying of Phoebe.”

Maybe not, Gus.

Gus told the press that Prince had failed to alert others to the bullying.

Investigators and witnesses say that was far from the case.

Gus told the press that he thinks “there were probably a number of causes” for Prince’s suicide and was surprised that the local district attorney drew such a strong connection between the bullying she endured and the suicide.

There are lessons to be learned this week from watching Gus.
http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/140840.html

SuziQ
04-09-2010, 09:35 PM
Kids can be popular, beautiful, smart, and highly successful and STILL be bullied. The two girls on the Dr. Phil show attest to that, class president, valedictorian, scholarships, cheerleader etc.......she was STILL bullied to the point of changing schools right before her graduation.

jmoo

At my DD's high school it was the pretty and popular girls that got picked on by the girls that weren't so popular or pretty. One night they did 25K dollars worth of damage to homes, cars and various other properties. I was a lucky one. I only got around $1000.00 worth of damage to my house and my daughters new car.

Laurence
04-09-2010, 09:37 PM
Am I remembering right that the actual charges for the first three were released once their booking was completed?

If so since the older ones were booked today, we might be seeing the release of those documents soon as well.

Or was the document release from the first unconnected with the booking?

thebear14
04-09-2010, 10:29 PM
Through the very dry and clinical description of events in that charges PDF regarding that last day, I get the impression she really was. Can you imagine being so terrified that you ask others if you can walk in the middle of them through the halls?

This whole story get more and more awful.

I'm actually dreading what we're going to read if they release another PDF with details on the charges for the other three.

I agree with all of this. She likely was sensitive. I myself am sensitive, I'm not a fighter. I don't start fights, I don't like them. I prefer to be left alone, much like how the witness described Phoebe. I guess because I myself am that way, I can truly understand how all of this got her to the point where she mentally felt she couldn't deal with it any longer. I had a situation myself, which I may talk more about another time, that wasn't nearly as bad as Phoebe's but still greatly affected me and still does to this day. And this situation happened at age 23 for me, not 14-15 like Phoebe.

I too am dreading what we're going to read next if they release more info, but at the same time sort of hoping it helps clear some questions up that we have. The indictments we read yesterday still haunt me even though from all the information we gathered I pretty much already knew. Just seeing it all together in print with more specifics just really horrified me as well as many others, it seems.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 10:50 PM
Okay...I think I found some stuff on Boisselle, through his Daughter A., who is not a minor. She is mentioned in this blog from run4chocolate...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/pathetic/

There may have been an attempt to hide, ;) the twitter profile is in "Steve McQueen's" name. She is in college. She speaks quite openly on her twitter, and links to another page that names her. I wondered if it was a female or male, I knew it was a Boisselle, but a few comments led me to female. We may be able to find other, more relevant players twitter feeds through her friends list...

She reacts to run4chocolates post about her...that tells me it is her...she threatens a poster named concernedfather, I think he's on craigslist, he's been saying critical things of the administration, I've seen him around...wants to crush his "bits"...whoa...

http://twitter.com/Yehan123

There were a of couple points of interest, though...imo

On twitter, from March 29th-March31 she speaks of her family name being trashed in the masslive comments, about being from South Hadley, she now attends college, is a film student, in Philly. I find the attitude relevant, it may tell us a little of the attitude of her Father, Edward Boisselle, the school committe chairman.

February 21- She speaks of her brother drunk driving and her "parents bailed him out". What that means...no idea.

ETA: And she also said, around March, I believe, that bullying was bad when she was in high school.

From other page, linked off of the twitter page...

"Locked in Safety
Project by A. Boisselle"

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1210261473/locked-in-safety

Natal
04-09-2010, 10:55 PM
Through the very dry and clinical description of events in that charges PDF regarding that last day, I get the impression she really was. Can you imagine being so terrified that you ask others if you can walk in the middle of them through the halls?

This whole story get more and more awful.

I'm actually dreading what we're going to read if they release another PDF with details on the charges for the other three.

That is not what I got from the charging documents, I think what happened is that she got herself into a situation that was too much for her to handle.

The one thing that has been bothering me about this story is why these kids were so virulent in their behaviour, when it struck me this afternoon. There has to be a backstory to all of this, one we are not as yet hearing about. Reading the pdf charging documents it is clear that this was all about sex and teenage relationships.

I think what was happening is that Phoebe was using sex as a tool in her attempts to form relationships with the boys she wanted. Two of these boys have been charged with stat rape, so there were at least two, possibly others we don't know about, who had sex with her. It seems these boys allready had girlfriends, and for those girls Phoebe must have been very threatening. She was better looking than them and apparently willing to have sex, something that they perhaps were more conservative about. So how would they be able to compete with her?

One way to compete would be to become more promiscous themselves, but that would be risky since they were less attractive and stood the risk of damaging their reputations if they did, which might have all sorts of unpredictable negative consequences. The other way was the anti-competition method of turning their rivals romantic weapons into liabilities, which is what they seem to have done.

Basically what they did was try to isolate her by very publicly putting her in the middle of the crosshairs by exposing her sexual behaviour. This would have the effect of alerting every other girl in the school that she was a potential threat to their romantic interests, as well as making her a romantic pariah for boys. For them, having sex with her would get them bragging rights, but any attempt to have a romantic relationship would expose them to derision as a pathetic loser for doing so. The end result would be that she would become the kid that few wanted to be around, which in turn would make her even more vulnerable for further targeting.

If you think about it, this is a very effective way for a girl to eliminate a romantic rival with little risk, and that particular story probably plays out thousands of times across the country in every school (and beyond). In most cases suicides don't result though.

In this particular fight Phoebe probably turned and ran very early on in the conflict since she was outnumbered, but the other girls (being immature and all) just kept on pursueing her even though the war was won. Btw, I think that this was very much a girl thing, the boys involved were likely going with the flow in order to stay in their girlfriends good graces. For Phoebe it became unbearable. She would have desparately wanted it to stop, but on the other hand if she pushed the authorities or her parents too much about it there was the risk of her own initial role in all of this coming out and that may have been too much to bear as well. So in the end she did the only thing she thought she could do to stop it.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 11:10 PM
Anderson Cooper's covering Phoebe's case. I missed most here in EST, but those in other time zones may get it.
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/09/bullied-to-death-new-insight-on-teens-final-hours-join-the-live-chat/#comments

Paladine
04-09-2010, 11:17 PM
VIDEO:
(NECN) - On the Braude Beat, more troubling details about the suicide of a Massachusetts teenager following relentless bullying. According to documents, 15-year-old Phoebe Prince had gone to a school administrator to get help.

Governor Deval Patrick reacted to the report on WTKK this morning.

Despite the comments, no adults have been charged. Will that change?

Beth Shelburne and Jim Braude discuss the case.
http://www.necn.com/04/09/10/Braude-Beat-Teen-bullying-death/landing.html?blockID=213316&feedID=4215

hndinglove
04-09-2010, 11:34 PM
That CBS news article is from February 5 -- way before the second media crush. I wouldn't at all consider the location of death relevant; it's wrong, and has been proven wrong, from the official court documents.

I hope I don't sound impertinent, but I'm not really understanding all of the discussion about where she was found. Why is this important or relevant? I'm generally curious.

NOW...I'd really like to know more about that. WHO told the reporter it was a closet and if they did lie, why did they lie? Seems to have been alot of confusion in the beginning. I wonder if the media story was going to be a closet, a wardrobe...until the investigation got out of hand and the truth of the stairwell had to come out. Look at the deceptive media practices O'Brien told Cullen he was facing? He said something to the effect of a cover up. There is no report, I could find, anywhere, on whether she was inside or outside. Maybe it didn't make news for the same reason Dan Smiths investigation uncovered so little. Maybe, they didn't want it to. I'm just feeling very suspicious. And I can't shake it.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 11:35 PM
coming up now on Anderson Cooper...

Laurence
04-09-2010, 11:36 PM
Okay...I think I found some stuff on Boisselle, through his Daughter A., who is not a minor. She is mentioned in this blog from run4chocolate...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/pathetic/

There may have been an attempt to hide, ;) the twitter profile is in "Steve McQueen's" name. She is in college. She speaks quite openly on her twitter, and links to another page that names her. I wondered if it was a female or male, I knew it was a Boisselle, but a few comments led me to female. We may be able to find other, more relevant players twitter feeds through her friends list...

She reacts to run4chocolates post about her...that tells me it is her...she threatens a poster named concernedfather, I think he's on craigslist, he's been saying critical things of the administration, I've seen him around...wants to crush his "bits"...whoa...


I think you are right about who that is. The Litterbox blog did make a mistake in his criticism of her, though. He made a comment about her being a member of "Friends With Benefits" group on facebook, but I clicked the link on that group and it appears to be a movie fan page, not what Sauerkraut was implying.

Concerned_Father2 is all over the masslive/south hadley forums. He's had a lot of interesting information, and has often posted about having screenshots of the early facebook and twitter pages and such, but I've not seen him actually share them anywhere. Recently the Masslive forum has degenerated into 90% fighting and little information.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 11:37 PM
That CBS news article is from February 5 -- way before the second media crush. I wouldn't at all consider the location of death relevant; it's wrong, and has been proven wrong, from the official court documents.

I hope I don't sound impertinent, but I'm not really understanding all of the discussion about where she was found. Why is this important or relevant? I'm generally curious.
Any case related questions/topics are welcome. Members are welcome to post whatever they wish, as long as it follows TOS. If you are interested in other aspects, you are free to post and discuss on such. Me?...I follow TOS and post what interests me. :) We have not had clear evidence of where she was found. That interests me. When I follow a case, I usually start with the death. I'm nit picky like that. ;)

Laurence
04-09-2010, 11:45 PM
That is not what I got from the charging documents, I think what happened is that she got herself into a situation that was too much for her to handle.

The one thing that has been bothering me about this story is why these kids were so virulent in their behaviour, when it struck me this afternoon. There has to be a backstory to all of this, one we are not as yet hearing about. Reading the pdf charging documents it is clear that this was all about sex and teenage relationships.

I think you are onto something here. When/if the charing documents for the two boys and flannery are released I think we may have a better picture of what was going on.

Basically what they did was try to isolate her by very publicly putting her in the middle of the crosshairs by exposing her sexual behavour. This would have the effect of alerting every other girl in the school that she was a potential threat to their romantic interests, as well as making her a romantic pariah for boys. For them, having sex with her would get them bragging rights, but any attempt to have a romatic relationship would expose them to derision as a pathetic loser for doing so. The end result would be that she would become the kid that few wanted to be around, which in turn would make her even more vulnerable for further targeting.

This would go a long way to explaining why it seems so difficult to find posts/pictures/information from any real friends Phoebe may have had. There really weren't any.

The ones who claim to have been her friends don't seem to mention her before she died, don't have pictures of her to post, and often are also members of facebook groups mad at the media attention or supporting the boys/bullies.


In this particular fight Phoebe probably turned and ran very early on in the conflict since she was outnumbered, but the other girls (being immature and all) just kept on pursueing her even though the war was won. Btw, I think that this was very much a girl thing, the boys involved were likely going with the flow in order to stay in their girlfriends good graces. For Phoebe it became unbearable. She would have desparately wanted it to stop, but on the other hand if she pushed the authorities or her parents too much about it there was the risk of her own initial role in all of this coming out and that may have been too much to bear as well. So in the end she did the only thing she thought she could do to stop it.

Excellent post, thanks for sharing this.

Paladine
04-09-2010, 11:52 PM
I think you are right about who that is. The Litterbox blog did make a mistake in his criticism of her, though. He made a comment about her being a member of "Friends With Benefits" group on facebook, but I clicked the link on that group and it appears to be a movie fan page, not what Sauerkraut was implying.
Concerned_Father2 is all over the masslive/south hadley forums. He's had a lot of interesting information, and has often posted about having screenshots of the early facebook and twitter pages and such, but I've not seen him actually share them anywhere. Recently the Masslive forum has degenerated into 90% fighting and little information.

Yes, it is a movie page, and, as you likely saw, Boisselle addressed it on her twitter feed...

Paladine
04-09-2010, 11:59 PM
We all are entitled to our viewpoints but I can't agree this was about mainly about sex. Her sexuality was the weapon they used against her, I can agree on that. But jealousy and heartless human beings are at fault, imo. Not anything Phoebe may have or may not have done. Their jealousy , insecurity and thirst for social power is what caused them to strike out...to hound her...to shame her...the problem was with them, not Phoebe. IMO

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 12:08 AM
We all are entitled to our viewpoints but I can't agree this was about mainly about sex. Her sexuality was the weapon they used against her, I can agree on that. But jealousy and heartless human beings are at fault, imo. Not anything Phoebe may have or may not have done. Their jealousy , insecurity and thirst for social power is what caused them to strike out...to hound her...to shame her...the problem was with them, not Phoebe. IMO

Here, here! NO ONE should be made to feel afraid in their own school, regardless of what they have done.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 12:12 AM
We all are entitled to our viewpoints but I can't agree this was about mainly about sex. Her sexuality was the weapon they used against her, I can agree on that. But jealousy and heartless human beings are at fault, imo. Not anything Phoebe may have or may not have done. Their jealousy , insecurity and thirst for social power is what caused them to strike out...to hound her...to shame her...the problem was with them, not Phoebe. IMO

My agreement with Natal was with their idea on why the bullies zeroed in on Phoebe. Whatever Phoebe may or may not have done has nothing to do with her deserving anything that was done to her. It is revolting the level of abuse and hate that was directed at her.

Like I said earlier, she appears to have been a quiet, sensitive girl. If I've given the impression that I thought she brought this on herself then I've expressed things badly, because I definately do NOT think that.

The fault is with the bullies and the adults who failed a 15 year old girl.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 12:21 AM
My agreement with Natal was with their idea on why the bullies zeroed in on Phoebe. Whatever Phoebe may or may not have done has nothing to do with her deserving anything that was done to her. It is revolting the level of abuse and hate that was directed at her.

Like I said earlier, she appears to have been a quiet, sensitive girl. If I've given the impression that I thought she brought this on herself then I've expressed things badly, because I definately do NOT think that.

The fault is with the bullies and the adults who failed a 15 year old girl.
I know, Lawrence...you've shown nothing but respect for this child. I was not judging you or anyone, I just felt the need to say it...rest assured. :blowkiss:

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 12:25 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36332885/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/

New MSNBC article about the role technology played in this case...no real new information

Paladine
04-10-2010, 12:26 AM
TV psychologist Dr Phil McGraw has revealed that students "mimicked the hanging" of Irish schoolgirl Phoebe Prince at the high school dance in South Hadley, Massachusetts that was held only two days after her death.
The revelation is another shocking detail in a case that has seen six high school students charged with helping cause her suicide and school authorities coming under nationwide scrutiny for how they reacted to it.

Appearing on the Anderson Cooper Show on CNN, Dr Phil stated that bullying expert Barbara Coloroso had confirmed the incident which occured at the winter cotillion dance which had gone ahead despite the fact that Phoebe had been found dead just days earlier.

Dr. Phil questioned why the school authorities allowed the dance to go ahead and stated that the school authorities behaved very badly during the whole bullying episode that led to her death. "They didn't tell the truth about what they knew." he stated.

Did I say heartless?

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/bullies-mimicked--phoebe-prince-hanging-says-dr-phil-90432164.html

Laurence
04-10-2010, 12:33 AM
Did I say heartless?

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/bullies-mimicked--phoebe-prince-hanging-says-dr-phil-90432164.html

I wonder if those little monsters were foolish enough to take (and even post) pictures of themselves doing that. It doesn't say how Barbara Coloroso confirmed the incident... I didn't watch the Dr Phil show in question, maybe she said how she knew this on air?

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 12:36 AM
I wonder if those little monsters were foolish enough to take (and even post) pictures of themselves doing that. It doesn't say how Barbara Coloroso confirmed the incident... I didn't watch the Dr Phil show in question, maybe she said how she knew this on air?

Ugh, that just makes me absolutely sick. I really hope a lot of this information is NOT making it back to her family...

Paladine
04-10-2010, 12:38 AM
Now, I want to see how the next meeting goes, O'Brien is calling everyone to come to the next meeting...
A friend of Phoebe Prince’s family yesterday called the South Hadley School Committee “gutless” for failing to find out why the school’s investigation into the bullying the 15-year-old endured differed so widely from the district attorney’s.

Darby O’Brien, a father of two who has spoken for the Prince family in recent weeks, said the school board should have called an emergency meeting after Northwestern District Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel announced the indictments of six students in connection with the teen’s suicide.

“Where’s the gutless school committee?” O’Brien said, urging people to attend Wednesday’s 6:30 p.m. meeting at the high school.
School Committee Chairman Edward Boiselle, who has questioned Scheibel’s findings, could not be reached for comment.
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100410family_pal_school_officials_gutless/

Paladine
04-10-2010, 12:44 AM
I wonder if those little monsters were foolish enough to take (and even post) pictures of themselves doing that. It doesn't say how Barbara Coloroso confirmed the incident... I didn't watch the Dr Phil show in question, maybe she said how she knew this on air?

I haven't seen it yet. It's coming up again later, if I'm awake, I'll post. I did read somewhere that students had told the counsellor about the hanging incident at the dance, other students, who had found it in bad taste and heartless. If you search her name, Barbara's, there are articles in which she does describe what students had told her. It was after Phoebe died, they called her back, and she let it out in the media, specifically the hanging? I'm not sure. It may have been more vague, like they disrespected or laughed about Phoebe's death...the article explains other students were feeling disheartened. The 'bullies' were still in school and nothing had happened, Barbara said, from my recollection. Search, if you like, it's out there...

ETA: there are links on thread #1 not sure about page #...maybe after page 5...

Paladine
04-10-2010, 01:40 AM
(WWLP) - A high school Senior gave South Hadley school administrators a bold warning about the bullying problem almost five years ago.

22News Production Assistant and a 2006 graduate of South Hadley High School, Matt Caron made an interesting discovery. A discovery that gave him a lot to think about.All the talk of the Phoebe Prince alleged bullying related suicide recently sparked a memory of a November 2005 editorial that he and another student had written when he was the editor of 'Spotlight', South Hadley High School's student newspaper."I site statistics from the Massachusetts Youth Risk Behavior Survey which show that South Hadley High School was above the state wide average in the number of students who were bullied and the number of students who had attempted suicide, so that right there should have put the administration on alert five years ago."
Even though the editorial ran almost five years ago, the South Hadley High School Senior who wrote it had a very clear message, saying he thought more stringent discipline codes needed to be put in place for the bullies, and even quoted the superintendent of the school district and the high school principal.

"I sat down with Dan Smith and he told me he did not see an increase in bullying and that it was out of his vision."

In the editorial, Superintendent Gus Sayer is also quoted reacting to the growing statistics at the time about bullying. He said about bullying---"That is something we are all concerned about, and need to think about as we go through out the year."
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/Smith-Bullying-is,-%22out-of-my-vision%22

Paladine
04-10-2010, 01:48 AM
Dr. Phil said that other students told Barbara about some students mimicking Phoebe's hanging at the dance, 2 days after her death. Not sure if anyone took a pic, it wasn't mentioned. Dr. Phil also said there are 2 choices, the adminstration is 1 of 2 things...either lying or incompetent.

Natal
04-10-2010, 01:59 AM
We all are entitled to our viewpoints but I can't agree this was about mainly about sex. Her sexuality was the weapon they used against her, I can agree on that. But jealousy and heartless human beings are at fault, imo. Not anything Phoebe may have or may not have done. Their jealousy , insecurity and thirst for social power is what caused them to strike out...to hound her...to shame her...the problem was with them, not Phoebe. IMO

I was thinking more about how this got started. It is all very well to look at the end product of an incident but to understand it you have to look at everything. Of course Phoebe was 15 while the other girls were a few years older, and at that age a few years is an order of magnitude increase in sophistication in those sorts of issues. I think it may be a fight she started, perhaps due to her inexperience in relationship dynamics, but one where she was no match for the girls she was in conflict with. It is possible that the indicted kids were doing it for a sadistic thrill but I think it more likely the core girls were emotionally threatened at the start and then once things got going lacked the maturity to know when to stop. That is characteristic of teenagers in general. Pack mentality once their friends banded together to support them didnt help either, because instead of one person having to decide to stop the whole group had to, which is much harder. This experience may well have damaged these girls for life, it is something they may look back on with regret for the rest of their lives.

I don't think social power had anything to do with it, she just got inbetween other strong girls and their men and I think that most teenage girls somewhat older than her would understand what that means. There is a saying "All is fair in love and war", and I think she found that out the hard way.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:12 AM
Phoebe's personal files sought...

"The attorney for one of six South Hadley High School students accused of bullying Phoebe Prince in the months leading up to her suicide is asking for highly personal information about her, a move decried by a former prosecutor and victims advocates as “unconscionable.”

In a six-page motion filed in Northampton Superior Court, Terrence M. Dunphy, the lawyer for Austin Renaud, asks for the names of any physicians, psychologists or rape counselors Prince saw; any medical and psychological records viewed by the prosecutor; details of any prior allegations of rape or abuse by Prince; and a statement as to whether her family had been the subject of a Department of Children and Families investigation"

"Wendy Murphy, a former prosecutor who teaches at the New England School of Law, called the move “unconscionable,” arguing that the state’s highest court has ruled that the defendant in a criminal case is not entitled to a “laundry list of everyone the victim’s ever been treated by.”

There is a “very narrow” exception, Murphy said, in which the defense has to explicitly show there is something in the alleged victim’s file that will affect the defendant’s chance of a fair trial.

“But in this case, it’s not only overly broad, it’s exceedingly premature,” she said, adding that Prince never accused anyone of statutory rape - consensual sex with a minor. “I can only see it as a threat to unveil all the family secrets.”

They also go on to say if the defense goes on to pursue it, the DA can request the same of the defendants.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1246073&srvc=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bostonherald%2Fnews%2Fregiona l+%28Local+%2F+Regional+-+News+%26+Opinion+-+BostonHerald.com%29&utm_content=Twitter

jjenny
04-10-2010, 02:15 AM
If Phoebe never accused anyone of statutory rape, how exactly is DA intending to prove it? The girl is dead and can not testify either way.
Whatever rumors there might have been at that school, I would think that's not exactly proof.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:16 AM
I was thinking more about how this got started. It is all very well to look at the end product of an incident but to understand it you have to look at everything. Of course Phoebe was 15 while the other girls were a few years older, and at that age a few years is an order of magnitude increase in sophistication in those sorts of issues. I think it may be a fight she started, perhaps due to her inexperience in relationship dynamics, but one where she was no match for the girls she was in conflict with. It is possible that the indicted kids were doing it for a sadistic thrill but I think it more likely the core girls were emotionally threatened at the start and then once things got going lacked the maturity to know when to stop. That is characteristic of teenagers in general. Pack mentality once their friends banded together to support them didnt help either, because instead of one person having to decide to stop the whole group had to, which is much harder. This experience may well have damaged these girls for life, it is something they may look back on with regret for the rest of their lives.

I don't think social power had anything to do with it, she just got inbetween other strong girls and their men and I think that most teenage girls somewhat older than her would understand what that means. There is a saying "All is fair in love and war", and I think she found that out the hard way.
I beg to differ. I feel social power motivated Ashley, it's like she really wanted to impress Kayla and Sean, imo. And maybe Sharon looking to impress Flannery. And likely many others who stood by and did nothing. They didn't want to lose theirs.

I do not believe the older girls were more sophisticated than Phoebe. To the contrary! From what I've read, they seem like untamed animals.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:23 AM
If Phoebe never accused anyone of statutory rape, how exactly is DA intending to prove it? The girl is dead and can not testify either way.
Whatever rumors there might have been at that school, I would think that's not exactly proof.
Personally, I find it very hard to debate or hold a position on the rape charge, at this point. I simply have no info.

Why wouldn't the dox for Sean, Kayla and Austin be released? Do you have any idea, jjenny? Anybody?

jjenny
04-10-2010, 02:24 AM
Personally, I find it very hard to debate or hold a position on the rape charge, at this point. I simply have no info.

Why wouldn't the dox for Sean, Kayla and Austin be released? Do you have any idea, jjenny? Anybody?

I have no idea. Could they be released later? By the way I presume it's a standard thing to do for defense to ask for the girl's information-the judge will have to decide whether defense is entitled to it or not.
I would think defense would be negligent if they did not ask for it.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:35 AM
I have no idea. Could they be released later? By the way I presume it's a standard thing to do for defense to ask for the girl's information-the judge will have to decide whether defense is entitled to it or not.
I would think defense would be negligent if they did not ask for it.
Not sure about a later release but it sure would be nice to see them. Hope some media outlet gets them...can't see why not. The others were released. Maybe something to do with the court? They were in a juvenile court and the others in an adult court, do procedures differ, possibly?

And, yes, you're right, everyone deserves a defense. But it was this comment, from that link, by the law prof, that raised my eyebrows...
"“But in this case, it’s not only overly broad, it’s exceedingly premature,” she said, adding that Prince never accused anyone of statutory rape - consensual sex with a minor. “I can only see it as a threat to unveil all the family secrets"
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1246073&srvc=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bostonherald%2Fnews%2Fregiona l+%28Local+%2F+Regional+-+News+%26+Opinion+-+BostonHerald.com%29&utm_content=Twitter

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:45 AM
I think recall reading opinion that if someone is under age of consent, their state of mind doesn't matter...because they are underage, they CAN'T consent...? I think she may be refering to the same line of thinking. So, why would Renaud's laywer need that info, if that's the case? With rape charges, that's the way I understood it was seen. Now, with the bodily harm charge against Longe, I recall reading opinion this info would be relevant. But this is Renauds lawyer...

“But in this case, it’s not only overly broad, it’s exceedingly premature,” she said, adding that Prince never accused anyone of statutory rape - consensual sex with a minor. “I can only see it as a threat to unveil all the family secrets"same link as above...

jjenny
04-10-2010, 03:04 AM
I think recall reading opinion that if someone is under age of consent, their state of mind doesn't matter...because they are underage, they CAN'T consent...I think she may be refering to the same line of thinking. So, why would Renaud's laywer need that info, if that's the case? With rape charges, that's the way I understood it was seen. Now, with the bodily harm charge against Longe, I recall reading opinion this info would be relevant. But this is Renauds lawyer...

same link as above...

I agree the state of mind doesn't matter in statutory rape charges because it's not forcible rape, but DA would have to prove sex took place to prove statutory rape. So how does DA intend to prove it? If she never accused anyone of statutory rape there unlikely to be physical evidence. So what is it based on? Depending on what DA intends to use as evidence I can speculate how state of mind could matter, but anyhow the judge will decide whether it's relevant information or not. I presume it is standard for defense to ask.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 03:14 AM
I agree the state of mind doesn't matter in statutory rape charges because it's not forcible rape, but DA would have to prove sex took place to prove statutory rape. So how does DA intend to prove it? If she never accused anyone of statutory rape there unlikely to be physical evidence. So what is it based on? Depending on what DA intends to use as evidence I can speculate how state of mind could matter, but anyhow the judge will decide whether it's relevant information or not. I presume it is standard for defense to ask.

Hey, I'm green when it comes to American law :) but from the sound of the following quote it would seem he can ask, but who knows if he'll receive. Sounds like the bar is set pretty high...and I can't see how it would affect his right to a fair statutory rape trial...my money, he doesn't get them. ;) I'm the gambling type...this is a big one...with my vast American legal experience. ;)
There is a “very narrow” exception, Murphy said, in which the defense has to explicitly show there is something in the alleged victim’s file that will affect the defendant’s chance of a fair trial.
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100410personal_files_sought_attorney_wants_princ e_medical_records/

Muffet
04-10-2010, 03:30 AM
I was thinking more about how this got started. It is all very well to look at the end product of an incident but to understand it you have to look at everything.
Assuming or presenting an argument that we should (without evidence) look at Phoebe as a girl who was "using sex as a tool" while these Mean Girls were "more conservative about sex" and merely felt "emotionally threatened" does worse than nothing to further our understanding of the problem we are dealing with, IMO.

Kids break up and make up and fool around every day. The problem with this group went far beyond merely romantically wanting to remove her from competition by letting others know she was sexually active.

The problem is that this group is simply a lot of spoiled, malicious kids who took their jealousy and cruelty to an extreme to destroy another kid. (The evidence for that is everywhere, demonstrated by them before and after her death.)

I would also submit that one thing that gives kids these days the gall to act so barbarically is all the enabling by people who teach them to rationalize their behavior rather than holding themselves accountable to any standard of decency or fairness.

Of course Phoebe was 15 while the other girls were a few years older, and at that age a few years is an order of magnitude increase in sophistication in those sorts of issues. I think it may be a fight she started, perhaps due to her inexperience in relationship dynamics, but one where she was no match for the girls she was in conflict with. It is possible that the indicted kids were doing it for a sadistic thrill but I think it more likely the core girls were emotionally threatened at the start and then once things got going lacked the maturity to know when to stop. That is characteristic of teenagers in general.


I think it is more likely that they are spoiled, vicious harpies who lack moral fiber and a sense of fairness and humanity. And with all due respect, I also think it's an insult to teenagers in general to be painted as having the same characteristics as these kids. Mine don't. Nor do their friends.

Pack mentality once their friends banded together to support them didnt help either, because instead of one person having to decide to stop the whole group had to, which is much harder. This experience may well have damaged these girls for life, it is something they may look back on with regret for the rest of their lives.

I don't think social power had anything to do with it, she just got inbetween other strong girls and their men and I think that most teenage girls somewhat older than her would understand what that means. There is a saying "All is fair in love and war", and I think she found that out the hard way.

Saying this as politely as I can, and it's JMO, but it's important... IMO, the language of your post fits the very definition of blaming the victim, and it sends the very message that propagates bullies and abuses like Phoebe suffered.

Phoebe did not bring this on herself by "using sex as a tool," nor by failing to understand a rule about love and war.
First, I don't think this was about love, but about pride, malice, and hubris.
Second, even if it were about love, all is *not* actually fair in love and war.

What these girls and guys did to Phoebe was way off the charts, and attempting to rationalize their sick behavior by figuring out what Phoebe did wrong only perpetuates the "stinkin thinkin" that drove them to drive her to hang herself.

Again, just my :twocents: fwiw. I'm sure you mean well, and maybe meant things differently than they came out, but since I keep seeing similar thoughts "out there" I felt it important to answer directly.

Best,
Muffet

Paladine
04-10-2010, 03:39 AM
could the boys dox be held back because of an underage child being involved...?

Paladine
04-10-2010, 03:41 AM
you sure can write, muffet. you are always a pleasure to read. :blowkiss:

Muffet
04-10-2010, 03:49 AM
you sure can write, muffet. you are always a pleasure to read. :blowkiss:

Aw, Pal, :blowkiss: backatcha. Seriously, you've been doing such a wonderful job and service to us all here, with your research and keeping us informed, I feel like sending you a huge chocolate cake and a gold medal! :bow:

stmarysmead
04-10-2010, 07:07 AM
IMO, Bullying needs to be treated much in the same way as Drunk Driving.

For years, maybe because so many people had a few drinks and made it home without hurting anyone...drunk driving was given a wink and a nod. WE only started to see real change when we developed a zero tolerance policy. At that point, real public disdain grew along with the legal and civil penalties for anyone who would get behind the wheel drunk or anyone who enabled them. ("friends don't let friends drive drunk.")

Furthermore, Drunk Drivers are rarely able to blame their victims...or shift the onus for their behavior. If the driver of the other car is promiscuous, or troubled...hey, if they were sober and in their lane where they had every right to be...the Blame Game is a loser.

So should it be for Bullies. I hope there will be convictions and real penalties in this case. Phoebe was "in her lane"...in school where the State required her to be.

They made her life unbearable...essentially THEIR behavior drove her off the road to her death. There needs to be accountability.

In time, accountability, punishment, education, and increased public outrage will making the label "Bully" as odious as the label "Drunk Driver."
Then we will see relief for our victim/children and real positive results across the board.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 10:17 AM
As far as the statutory rape, it technically can't be consensual, even if it was, because the MA law is that at age 14 or 15 one is unable to consent to sexual activity. I don't always agree with that law, but that's besides the point. For the DA to bring the statutory rape charge I'm guessing she must have had enough evidence, perhaps from text messages, online messages via facebook, etc., or a journal Phoebe kept that there was sexual activity going on. It's unlikely she would lie about sexual activity in those sort of areas. I don't think the DA would bring a stat. rape charge just based on these girls calling her names. Also, usually the underage person doesn't bring the charge of statutory rape. This is one case where the state acts on the victim's behalf when there is evidence of sexual activity whether they want them to or not. I've read a few cases where the underage person's parents bring the charge of statutory rape against the older partner, even if they were in a dating relationship, simply because they aren't happy their child is having sex.

Regarding the girls mimicking hanging themselves by a noose, I was going to post something about that last night but didn't feel like looking for the exact place I had read it. It's beyond disgusting and shows a real lack of humanity. If one of these girls ended up committing suicide in the next few weeks, I still wouldn't condone anyone mimicking or saying "that's what she deserved" because even though what they did was absolutely terrible, there is still a family mourning the loss of a loved one way too early.

Interesting about the requesting of her previous therapy records, etc. I'll have to read more about that. Have to catch up on all the links and posts that have been submitted while I've been slumbering :)

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 10:26 AM
I get the impression (especially from the latest information about requesting records) that the defense is going to try to do anything they can to discredit Phoebe and trash her character. IMO, that's not a legal defense, that just plain horrific.

Maybe I'm naive, but how on earth could people act like this?? I know the typical in-jest attitude about lawyers, but seriously, it's just scummy!

jjenny
04-10-2010, 10:28 AM
Well, if you speculate she wrote something in a journal-unlike a person, a journal can not be cross-examined, and I suppose that's where the state of mind could come in-how can it be verified that whatever was written in a journal was accurate?

jjenny
04-10-2010, 10:32 AM
I get the impression (especially from the latest information about requesting records) that the defense is going to try to do anything they can to discredit Phoebe and trash her character. IMO, that's not a legal defense, that just plain horrific.

Maybe I'm naive, but how on earth could people act like this?? I know the typical in-jest attitude about lawyers, but seriously, it's just scummy!

Defense lawyer's job is to defend their client. Furthermore, it's not like asking for that kind of information automatically will give defense this information. I presume a judge is going to decide if the information is relevant and if defense is not entitled to it I presume defense will not get it.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 10:35 AM
Ireland press has picked up the story from last night: "Attempt to smear Phoebe Prince under way by defense says law professor"

“It’s standard procedure,” Dunphy told the Herald “The document speaks for itself. I’m not explaining anything.”

However, Murphy, a former prosecutor who teaches at the New England School of Law, said the move was “unconscionable,” pointing out that the state had decreed that the defendant in a criminal case is not entitled to a “laundry list of everyone the victim’s ever been treated by.”

“I can only see it as a threat to unveil all the family secrets.” Murphy said.
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/attempt-to-smear-phoebe-prince-under-way-by-defense--says-law-professor-90483724.html

Paladine
04-10-2010, 10:36 AM
I get the impression (especially from the latest information about requesting records) that the defense is going to try to do anything they can to discredit Phoebe and trash her character. IMO, that's not a legal defense, that just plain horrific.

Maybe I'm naive, but how on earth could people act like this?? I know the typical in-jest attitude about lawyers, but seriously, it's just scummy!
I get the same impression. And maybe to scare the family off...quite intimidating, isn't it?

jjenny
04-10-2010, 10:37 AM
Ireland press has picked up the story from last night: "Attempt to smear Phoebe Prince under way by defense says law professor"


http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/attempt-to-smear-phoebe-prince-under-way-by-defense--says-law-professor-90483724.html

I personally don't pay any attention to Wendy Murphys' opinions.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 10:41 AM
I personally don't pay any attention to Wendy Murphys' opinions.
and personally...I like Wendy Murphy...lol...;) good morning, jjenny! :)

jjenny
04-10-2010, 10:42 AM
and personally...I like Wendy Murphy...lol...;) good morning, jjenny! :)

I dislike her even more than I do Nancy Grace.

OrdinaryLife
04-10-2010, 10:47 AM
What the defense attorneys (and the lawyers that will, imho, for South Hadley School administration) are going to do is attempt to show that Phoebe Prince was emotionally unable to deal with harmless "teasing" do to depression and past bullying in Ireland. That she is not a victim of anything save for her own self. Their clients are victims of over zealous judgment over normal teen behaviour.

It is a smear campaign to try and preserve the status quo of what has been acceptable and "normal" in South Hadley. Makes me ill.....

jjenny
04-10-2010, 10:49 AM
What the defense attorneys (and the lawyers that will, imho, for South Hadley School administration) are going to do is attempt to show that Phoebe Prince was emotionally unable to deal with harmless "teasing" do to depression and past bullying in Ireland. That she is not a victim of anything save for her own self. Their clients are victims of over zealous judgment over normal teen behaviour.

It is a smear campaign to try and preserve the status quo of what has been acceptable and "normal" in South Hadley. Makes me ill.....

The defense lawyer isn't releasing this information, he is asking for it. If asking for something is the same as smearing, well, pardon me.
The court will decide if defense is entitled to the information or not. Someone accused of statutory rape is facing a serious prison time and it affects their whole life. The alleged victim is dead and can not be cross-examined. What exactly do you propose defense lawyer do to defend his/her client?

OrdinaryLife
04-10-2010, 10:57 AM
The defense lawyer isn't releasing this information, he is asking for it. If asking for something is the same as smearing, well, pardon me.
The court will decide if defense is entitled to the information or not. Someone accused of statutory rape is facing a serious prison time and it affects their whole life. The alleged victim is dead and can not be cross-examined. What exactly do you propose defense lawyer do to defend his/her client?

The defense has every right to request information from the DA in regards to their clients. I was not responding to the alleged statutory rape charges since there has been nothing put out there, to the public, regarding it. That will come out eventually. I am responding to the emotional/verbal/physical abuse Ms Prince endured from the charged group. As far as the South Hadley School system/administration, et al, where their responsibility will be held accountable.

raeann
04-10-2010, 11:13 AM
The defense lawyer isn't releasing this information, he is asking for it. If asking for something is the same as smearing, well, pardon me.
The court will decide if defense is entitled to the information or not. Someone accused of statutory rape is facing a serious prison time and it affects their whole life. The alleged victim is dead and can not be cross-examined. What exactly do you propose defense lawyer do to defend his/her client?



Unless their attorneys are willing to waive their client's right to a jury trial, or are requesting a change of venue.....they would be VERY wise at this point to completely avoid a "blame the victim" strategy. If that is their only plan for a defense, they are in some real deep trouble. Any skilled and half-way intelligent counsel would know, by now, that their every move and attitude is already being scrutinized by their potential jury pool. IF they are truly able to seat a jury that claims to have not followed the case....then any professional jury selection consultant is going to advise them that their jury is going to have much the same reaction to the facts of the case as the general public has already clearly shown. That reaction in no way favors their clients and in no way supports a blame the victim strategy. Then again, if they do choose to use it, they know their clients will have grounds for appeal on the basis on incompetent legal counsel.


jmoo

jjenny
04-10-2010, 11:16 AM
s



Unless their attorneys are willing to waive their client's right to a jury trial, or are requesting a change of venue.....they would be VERY wise at this point to completely avoid a "blame the victim" strategy. If that is their only plan for a defense, they are in some real deep trouble. Any skilled and half-way intelligent counsel would know, by now, that their every move and attitude is already being scrutinized by their potential jury pool. IF they are truly able to seat a jury that claims to have not followed the case....then any professional jury selection consultant is going to advise them that their jury is going to have much the same reaction to the facts of the case as the general public has already clearly shown. That reaction in no way favors their clients and in no way supports a blame the victim strategy. Then again, if they do choose to use it, they know their clients will have grounds for appeal on the basis on incompetent legal counsel.


jmoo

I have no idea what defense strategy is going to be and neither do you, I presume.
Asking for the information certainly doesn't mean defense is not competent, it's the other way around, by the way.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 11:18 AM
I keep thinking that the what the school nurse has to say might carry a great deal of weight. Phoebe was seen in her office that day, crying, and then was sent back to class.

That's a direct call for help from the girl on the day of her death and being in an official capacity in the school administration whatever this person says could turn the case toward the bullies or away from them.

I say away from them because if the nurse and others can be shown in a bad light by the bullies lawyers (which they will try to do to deflect responsibility from their clients), then the bullies might escape with slight punishments.

And without charges against the school officials, that's the end of the criminal matter.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 11:20 AM
I dislike her even more than I do Nancy Grace.
I used to hate NG. My Mother always watched it. But then I followed the KC case, posting on the NG thread and became hooked. My Hubby hates it. I can't watch it in the same room as him...unless I feel like hearing his commentary...lol...;)

Paladine
04-10-2010, 11:25 AM
I keep thinking that the what the school nurse has to say might carry a great deal of weight. Phoebe was seen in her office that day, crying, and then was sent back to class.
That's a direct call for help from the girl on the day of her death and being in an official capacity in the school administration whatever this person says could turn the case toward the bullies or away from them.

I say away from them because if the nurse and others can be shown in a bad light by the bullies lawyers (which they will try to do to deflect responsibility from their clients), then the bullies might escape with slight punishments.

And without charges against the school officials, that's the end of the criminal matter.
Agreed, I really want to know more about that.

I'm not sure how the nurses inaction would affect the case. It appears wasn't action...but a lackthereof...I wonder if that matters.

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 11:29 AM
Either way, this trial is going to be nasty...i think we are going to find that the adults will be no less ruthless than the children...

raeann
04-10-2010, 11:30 AM
I have no idea what defense strategy is going to be and neither do you, I presume.
Asking for the information certainly doesn't mean defense is not competent, it's the other way around, by the way.

Sorry, I was posting under the impression that all posters here were welcome to express their OPINION. (jmo=just my opinion, which is stated below the post)

If that post is read correctly...it doesn't ever refer in any way to their asking for the information, it refers to the use of a blame the victim strategy. It also discusses the KNOWN AND OBVIOUS public reaction to this case which has been quite clear and vocal. It also was posted after a long and thorough discussion of this case and regarding what would be a good defense strategy with SEVERAL attorneys who deal with personal defense cases and jury selection and strategy on a daily basis. So, I guess, in a way it is not just MY opinion, but the opinion of those legal professionals which I chose to relate. Hope that explains it better.

AGAIN, JMO

Paladine
04-10-2010, 11:31 AM
international press pick up the hanging story...
"Dr Phil appeared on CNN where he stated that a bullying expert had described to him the sickening details of a school dance that went ahead in the days after Phoebe's death on January 14.

It was at this party that other teenagers mocked Phoebe's suicide and mimicked her death.

The world-renowned shrink questioned why school authorities allowed the dance to go ahead and said they had behaved very badly before and after Phoebe's death.

"They didn't tell the truth about what they knew," he claimed, adding that it was "astounding how vicious and brutal" the bullying of Phoebe Prince was."
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/bullies-mimicked-phoebes-suicide-at-party-says-dr-phil-2133126.html

thebear14
04-10-2010, 11:44 AM
Well, if you speculate she wrote something in a journal-unlike a person, a journal can not be cross-examined, and I suppose that's where the state of mind could come in-how can it be verified that whatever was written in a journal was accurate?

I say a journal because I think it's unlikely that she would lie in a personal diary/journal. I've seen some reports that there may be a journal she kept but nothing concrete so just speculation that there may be one. I see no reason why a 14-15 year old girl would lie to her diary. Not even sure if it could be used as evidence but just a possibility.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 11:50 AM
someone had mentioned that possibly the dox for the oldest 3 weren't released because they weren't booked, yet. The younger 3 were booked and then we heard the statement of facts. I wonder...could it be because they hadn't been booked? Or is it because the charges involve sex and a minor? Even so, we should still get Kayla Narey's. K, S and A are the oldest 3, right? Why no mention of their names? No dox...hmmm...where's my tinfoil...;)
SOUTH HADLEY, Mass. (WWLP) - It may be a while until the teens are seen in a courtroom, however the teens accused for bullying Pheobe Prince to death did have to finally appear for booking .

The oldest three were spotted for booking at the Northampton State Police barracks Friday morning.
Ashley Longe and Flannery Mullins had to check in with Franklin/Hampshire Juvenile Court.

Sharon Velazquez checked in on Thursday.
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/phoebe-princes-alleged-bullies-booked

thebear14
04-10-2010, 11:50 AM
I keep thinking that the what the school nurse has to say might carry a great deal of weight. Phoebe was seen in her office that day, crying, and then was sent back to class.

That's a direct call for help from the girl on the day of her death and being in an official capacity in the school administration whatever this person says could turn the case toward the bullies or away from them.

I say away from them because if the nurse and others can be shown in a bad light by the bullies lawyers (which they will try to do to deflect responsibility from their clients), then the bullies might escape with slight punishments.

And without charges against the school officials, that's the end of the criminal matter.

I was actually just thinking about the nurse visit earlier this morning. I think whatever happened there will end up having a big impact, especially considering it was on the day she died.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 12:01 PM
someone had mentioned that possibly the dox for the oldest 3 weren't released because they weren't booked, yet. The younger 3 were booked on Thursday, and then we heard the statement of facts. I wonder...could it be because they hadn't been booked? Or is it because the charges involve sex and a minor? Even so, we should still get Kayla Narey's.

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/phoebe-princes-alleged-bullies-booked

I'm not exactly sure why the statement of facts for the older three weren't released, but for some reason I just don't think it's because of the stat. rap charges. I've never followed a story quite as closely as this one, but I believe documents regarding other cases involving sex with a minor have been released - I just can't really back that up right now. The stat. rape charges have already been brought so assumptions have already been made that sex occurred for good reason. The only difference would be the statement of facts here would likely say for definite that sexual activity occurred, and perhaps a better time line of how these relationships progressed. obviously just my little thought and opinion ;)

concentric
04-10-2010, 12:01 PM
Yes, I'm also interested to find out about the nurse visit or visit(s) if she had been in there before. The emotional distress alone would probably lead to physical illness as well.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 12:04 PM
Yes, I'm also interested to find out about the nurse visit or visit(s) if she had been in there before. The emotional distress alone would probably lead to physical illness as well.

Most definitely - I've been there. Just thinking about some of this stuff makes me physically ill for her.

jjenny
04-10-2010, 12:13 PM
I used to hate NG. My Mother always watched it. But then I followed the KC case, posting on the NG thread and became hooked. My Hubby hates it. I can't watch it in the same room as him...unless I feel like hearing his commentary...lol...;)

I used to like NG but now I can't stand her. As for Wendy Murphy, if she told me the sky was blue I would have to check for myself before I believed it.
JMO.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 12:13 PM
wwlp not naming Mulveyhill and Narey in that last piece, which afforded them privacy, imo...and the lack of dox for them, made me grab my tinfoil. ;)

Out of curiosity, I did a search of the site that didn't mention Mulveyhill's name in their new piece. I searched for Mulveyhill...I found the last news source on him was April 1st, the same one that negative comments had disappeared from last week, I mentioned such on the first thread. I wonder about the comments, though. Yes, some are negative, now. Maybe because I called them out? Take a look at the posting date of the comments. "1 week ago", and "20 hrs ago", comes up alot...was the site really busy for a few periods, then nothing else?...I posted on the site, last week, "where'd the comments go, I saw negative comments?" My comment is gone. That's still their last story that comes up about Mulveyhill. And it's a fluff piece, imo, about how great a kid he is...I'm wondering about the local media. Can you tell? ;)
http://www.wwlp.com/search/SERP?q=mulveyhill&t=web&s=wwlp.com&o=relevance&google_web=google

Paladine
04-10-2010, 12:34 PM
I'm not exactly sure why the statement of facts for the older three weren't released, but for some reason I just don't think it's because of the stat. rap charges. I've never followed a story quite as closely as this one, but I believe documents regarding other cases involving sex with a minor have been released - I just can't really back that up right now. The stat. rape charges have already been brought so assumptions have already been made that sex occurred for good reason. The only difference would be the statement of facts here would likely say for definite that sexual activity occurred, and perhaps a better time line of how these relationships progressed. obviously just my little thought and opinion ;)
and I thank you for it, Bear. :) Let's hope some seasoned sleuth's who know MA law pop in with an answer because I'm baffled.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 12:42 PM
Masslive, local coverage...I love the 1st paragraph...

"Phoebe N. Prince was harassed at South Hadley High School by classmates who accused her of stealing other girls' boyfriends in what appears to have been a snake pit of lovelorn teenagers, according to documents filed in Franklin-Hampshire Juvenile Court.

The hazing, complete with physical threats, was so bad at one point Prince was followed into a rest room, according to the documents. The months-long campaign of abuse included confrontations with name-calling in the classroom, hallways, library and cafeteria at the school, continuing with an incident in the school library after which Prince walked home and hanged herself Jan. 14, the documents state."
http://www.masslive.com/chicopeeholyoke/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-26/1270885548194120.xml&coll=1

MaureenN
04-10-2010, 12:51 PM
That is not what I got from the charging documents, I think what happened is that she got herself into a situation that was too much for her to handle.

The one thing that has been bothering me about this story is why these kids were so virulent in their behaviour, when it struck me this afternoon. There has to be a backstory to all of this, one we are not as yet hearing about. Reading the pdf charging documents it is clear that this was all about sex and teenage relationships.

I think what was happening is that Phoebe was using sex as a tool in her attempts to form relationships with the boys she wanted. Two of these boys have been charged with stat rape, so there were at least two, possibly others we don't know about, who had sex with her. It seems these boys allready had girlfriends, and for those girls Phoebe must have been very threatening. She was better looking than them and apparently willing to have sex, something that they perhaps were more conservative about. So how would they be able to compete with her?

One way to compete would be to become more promiscous themselves, but that would be risky since they were less attractive and stood the risk of damaging their reputations if they did, which might have all sorts of unpredictable negative consequences. The other way was the anti-competition method of turning their rivals romantic weapons into liabilities, which is what they seem to have done.

Basically what they did was try to isolate her by very publicly putting her in the middle of the crosshairs by exposing her sexual behaviour. This would have the effect of alerting every other girl in the school that she was a potential threat to their romantic interests, as well as making her a romantic pariah for boys. For them, having sex with her would get them bragging rights, but any attempt to have a romantic relationship would expose them to derision as a pathetic loser for doing so. The end result would be that she would become the kid that few wanted to be around, which in turn would make her even more vulnerable for further targeting.

If you think about it, this is a very effective way for a girl to eliminate a romantic rival with little risk, and that particular story probably plays out thousands of times across the country in every school (and beyond). In most cases suicides don't result though.

In this particular fight Phoebe probably turned and ran very early on in the conflict since she was outnumbered, but the other girls (being immature and all) just kept on pursueing her even though the war was won. Btw, I think that this was very much a girl thing, the boys involved were likely going with the flow in order to stay in their girlfriends good graces. For Phoebe it became unbearable. She would have desparately wanted it to stop, but on the other hand if she pushed the authorities or her parents too much about it there was the risk of her own initial role in all of this coming out and that may have been too much to bear as well. So in the end she did the only thing she thought she could do to stop it.

I imagine the build-up a bit differently. Pretty, new to our country, somewhat exotic new girl in school is seen by boys as a fresh conquest that they want to pursue. They are either actively dating someone and choose to cheat on her -or- in an on-again, off-again relationship that is currently 'off'.

They flirt with her. She, being new, has no idea who they may or may not already be dating. She is flattered. She accepts their invitations & begins dating first one, then after breaking up with that one, another.

The boys pressure her into sex. Or, maybe she even willingly consents to sex (although, she is still underage).

The boys either actually wanted to be in a relationship with her or were just dating her to see if they could get her to have sex with them, so that they could have bragging rights.

Either way, after the relationships end, they go back to their original groups of friends with either hurt egos that they bolster by telling stories that make them feel better about the whole thing -or- bragging, callous stories about how they were 'the man'.

The insecure girls, instead of putting the responsibility of their own rocky, dishonest, game-like relationships with these boys on themselves and the boys, choose a scapegoat. Instead of thinking "these guys are losers who would cheat on me just for fun", they somehow disavow the boys of any personal responsibility in choosing to date someone else and decide to blame the girl that they dated. That assuages their insecurity, too - "It's not that I'm not a valued partner in a relationship, it's that the boys were magicked away somehow".

The boys egos soar as the girls fight to keep them. The girls insecurities are fed back by the boys enjoying the fights. The tagalong girl-friends, just as insecure, thrive on the positive attention they get from everyone when they join in.

Phoebe sits there wishing she had just turned down the offers for the dates in the first place & wonders if everyone in America is like this, if everyone in the world is like this at this age and beyond.

Well, that's the way I imagine it, anyway

raeann
04-10-2010, 12:53 PM
After watching through the booking entry and exit videos of the accused several times, it is so unfathomable what could have made such normal looking teens do so a horrible thing. I would even choose to believe that they never would have chosen for this to be the result of their actions---IF they had not repeatedly said that this is what they wanted her to do, suggested it directly to her, shouted it in the hallways, posted it online and then celebrated when it DID occur. Their own electronic media trail is going to be the main evidence against them, along with the dozens of eye witnesses whom they were happy to use as an audience. The saddest part is that they could so easily have chosen to use their talents and skills in a GOOD way. Unlike many who have called them horrible things, I do not see them as unattractive, or inherently evil at all. I just see immense wasted potential---and so many who share the blame, the kids, their parents, the school. SAD for all concerned.

jmoo

MaureenN
04-10-2010, 12:53 PM
As to why only the three charges were released so far, the one thing that I see about these papers are that they are requests for 'joinder'. The commonwealth and (I believe) the local authorities are both charging the defendants with the same thing, for the same reasons. So this request for joinder is saying "We think that these should both be tried at the same time, rather than wasting the courts time doing them twice".

So, maybe the other three defendants didn't have charges pressed by both commonwealth and local authorities.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 12:57 PM
Because Phoebe was the new girl all the guys were interested. I was in the military for 12 years and every command I transferred to and for every other new girl we became the talk, the one everyone was interested in. And they guys, especially the popular guys of the commands never have the best intentions. I recall in my 2nd command that I had a boyfriend when I transferred and this guy who was the popular guy was relentless in his pursuit of me. Even though I had a boyfriend. I turned him down many many times. I remember 2 girls immediately took a disliking to me and tried to bully me. I was 21 and the other girls were close to 30. I remember thinking is this middle and highschool all over again!

Oh, good morning all! :)

thebear14
04-10-2010, 12:59 PM
Masslive, local coverage...I love the 1st paragraph...


http://www.masslive.com/chicopeeholyoke/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-26/1270885548194120.xml&coll=1

Very good indeed. No matter how many time I read basically the same thing in different words, it still guts me :( and :mad:

Paladine
04-10-2010, 01:01 PM
From the same news site I suspect is being soft on the older bullies...THIS...
"Charged teen's family impacted"
"The nation turned its eyes to Phoebe Prince's case as legal proceedings began, but many are thinking about the families of the accused."

"While the teens are charged, many say its the parents who will have to foot the bill.

"Oh yea, with the lawyers, and even, whatever comes out of this case as penalties go," said Ed Giles.

"The cost, the burden of that is something everyone is thinking about," said Steven Slezek.

However South Hadley Parent Kristen Johnson say the money is probably the least of the families worries.

"I don't think its anything compared to the emotional stuff. The emotional stuff, is just going to bury them and its never going to leave," said Johnson."
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/infocus/charged-teen's-family-impacted

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:02 PM
I'm looking at Sean's myspace and he doesn't have any recent photos on there of him and Kayla or anything to suggest they were dating ever.

It's so weird looking at his friends list. I see some of his friends on his list are the same pics and friends on the support Phoebe pages on facebook.

jjenny
04-10-2010, 01:04 PM
Because Phoebe was the new girl all the guys were interested. I was in the military for 12 years and every command I transferred to and for every other new girl we became the talk, the one everyone was interested in. And they guys, especially the popular guys of the commands never have the best intentions. I recall in my 2nd command that I had a boyfriend when I transferred and this guy who was the popular guy was relentless in his pursuit of me. Even though I had a boyfriend. I turned him down many many times. I remember 2 girls immediately took a disliking to me and tried to bully me. I was 21 and the other girls were close to 30. I remember thinking is this middle and highschool all over again!

Oh, good morning all! :)

I would really like to know if somebody is instructing these teenagers that they might face a life in prison if they have sex with a girl under 16 even if the girl agrees to have sex because legally she can not consent in the state of MA.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:10 PM
I would really like to know if somebody is instructing these teenagers that they might face a life in prison if they have sex with a girl under 16 even if the girl agrees to have sex because legally she can not consent in the state of MA.

If they weren't before I sure think they are now. Idiots. I know teens have sex. My younger sister had a baby at the age of 15 and this was 7 or 8 years ago. But sex is a mature decision. And it can be used as a tool. I know girls who have sex to fit in, to feel loved and because they are pressured. And I'm 30! I can only imagine how it is in HS. Actually my SIL used to tell me when she was 15 and this was only 5 years ago that her boyfriend at the time used to pressure her and she broke up with him because she kept saying no.

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 01:12 PM
I'm looking at Sean's myspace and he doesn't have any recent photos on there of him and Kayla or anything to suggest they were dating ever.

It's so weird looking at his friends list. I see some of his friends on his list are the same pics and friends on the support Phoebe pages on facebook.

I joined one of the groups pretty early on, and you had to be approved in order to see anything. So maybe these friends of the accused are joining just so they can see what is being said and report back?

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 01:13 PM
If they weren't before I sure think they are now. Idiots. I know teens have sex. My younger sister had a baby at the age of 15 and this was 7 or 8 years ago. But sex is a mature decision. And it can be used as a tool. I know girls who have sex to fit in, to feel loved and because they are pressured. And I'm 30! I can only imagine how it is in HS. Actually my SIL used to tell me when she was 15 and this was only 5 years ago that her boyfriend at the time used to pressure her and she broke up with him because she kept saying no.

It doesn't get any better! I'm in my mid-20s and still see the same antics. I spent several months working in marketing for a huge bar in a major city; bunch of beautiful 20-somethings, and it was worse than high school.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:14 PM
http://www.northwesterndistrictattorney.org/

Northwestern District Attorney’s Office website

jjenny
04-10-2010, 01:16 PM
If they weren't before I sure think they are now. Idiots. I know teens have sex. My younger sister had a baby at the age of 15 and this was 7 or 8 years ago. But sex is a mature decision. And it can be used as a tool. I know girls who have sex to fit in, to feel loved and because they are pressured. And I'm 30! I can only imagine how it is in HS. Actually my SIL used to tell me when she was 15 and this was only 5 years ago that her boyfriend at the time used to pressure her and she broke up with him because she kept saying no.

Seriously I think all the teenagers in school should be instructed on what the laws are. And if schools don't do it I would hope parents tell these teenagers on what the consequences can be for their behavior. I don't think it's necessarily obvious to a 16 year old that he/she can face life in prison for having sex with a 15 year old. And even if they don't get prison time, I presume they can still be labeled as sex offenders and the rest of their lives will be ruined because of that.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 01:17 PM
I'm looking at Sean's myspace and he doesn't have any recent photos on there of him and Kayla or anything to suggest they were dating ever.
Yes, I've seen that...were there photos of Kayla previously?
ETA: and good morning, waddup! :)

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:26 PM
I haven't seen or heard but I would assume he'd have photos of Kayla and him on there. His last activity date was just last week. April 7 2010.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:26 PM
Seriously I think all the teenagers in school should be instructed on what the laws are. And if schools don't do it I would hope parents tell these teenagers on what the consequences can be for their behavior. I don't think it's necessarily obvious to a 16 year old that he/she can face life in prison for having sex with a 15 year old. And even if they don't get prison time, I presume they can still be labeled as sex offenders and the rest of their lives will be ruined because of that.

I fully agree and I think they will be labeled as sex offenders. They might have to also complete a program or something and have their names taken off. I've heard of that happening.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:27 PM
I joined one of the groups pretty early on, and you had to be approved in order to see anything. So maybe these friends of the accused are joining just so they can see what is being said and report back?

I joined a group on FB supporting Sean ;just to see what was being said and I haven't heard anything yet. I haven't been approved or denied. Probably will be denied lol.

jjenny
04-10-2010, 01:29 PM
I fully agree and I think they will be labeled as sex offenders. They might have to also complete a program or something and have their names taken off. I've heard of that happening.

I don't think there is even anything in MA law that would prevent a DA from charging two 15 year old with statutory rape of each other, if DA actually wanted to do it. As I understand it, the law simply says it's not legal to have sex with a child under 16. Some other states have so-called "Romeo and Juliet" exceptions for age differences, MA does not have it.

MaureenN
04-10-2010, 01:32 PM
From the same news site I suspect is being soft on the older bullies...THIS...
"Charged teen's family impacted"



http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/infocus/charged-teen's-family-impacted

Maybe the should have thought about the potential emotional and financial burdens that they might bear while they were raising their children to be such thoughtless human beings...

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:34 PM
Apparently Kayla bullied a lot of people. I'm reading the personal on Mass CL and I typed Phoebe's name in there and I'm reading Kayla bullied lots.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:35 PM
I don't think there is even anything in MA law that would prevent a DA from charging two 15 year old with statutory rape of each other, if DA actually wanted to do it. As I understand it, the law simply says it's not legal to have sex with a child under 16. Some other states have so-called "Romeo and Juliet" exceptions for age differences, MA does not have it.

I'm assuming there's enough evidence to bring the stat rape. FB comments, texts, myspace messages. His own admission? Someone has had to admit it. Boy oh boy..this idiot.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 01:37 PM
Apparently Kayla bullied a lot of people. I'm reading the personal on Mass CL and I typed Phoebe's name in there and I'm reading Kayla bullied lots.
I've read rumor of the same about Kayla. And of Flannery, as well...

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:38 PM
I'm reading that Sharon's mom said Sharon only spit on her a few times and called her Irish Whore. ONLY?!

http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/1675561730.html

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 01:39 PM
I'm reading that Sharon's mom said Sharon only spit on her a few times and called her Irish Whore. ONLY?!

http://westernmass.craigslist.org/rnr/1675561730.html

Wow, that's some awesome parenting there...ugh

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:42 PM
Sp now Sharon is claiming she was with her mom on the day Phoebe died, that she pointed Phoebe out to her while she walked home.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1243311

Paladine
04-10-2010, 01:44 PM
More for the thread on the cafeteria incident...names are mentioned as sources...
"Ms. Prince arrived at a class late and crying; a teacher tried to console her in the hallway and then left her there,

S. Smith said that her son had watched as one of the accused bullies screamed insults in Ms. Prince's face in the cafeteria while the teenager tried to ignore it -- and that two teachers saw the verbal assault but did not act.
and they have already confirmed the nurse visit...
On the afternoon of her death other students said they saw Ms. Prince going into the nurse's office, crying. A school official confirmed that Ms. Prince had seen the nurse but said he could not comment on the reasons.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-fleetwood/they-called-her-an-irish_b_522983.html

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:44 PM
Well I found an Angeles Chanon on FB who lives in Springfield Ma

http://www.facebook.com/UrBebe

Could this be her skank mom?

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 01:45 PM
Sp now Sharon is claiming she was with her mom on the day Phoebe died, that she pointed Phoebe out to her while she walked home.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1243311

I could be wrong, but it seems like Sharon is the only one who has publicly made any statements. Have any of the others?

Paladine
04-10-2010, 01:48 PM
Sp now Sharon is claiming she was with her mom on the day Phoebe died, that she pointed Phoebe out to her while she walked home.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1243311
Now, ain't that something. That she would happen to see Phoebe and happen to point her out, to her biggest apologist, on the same afternoon Phoebe died.
She should buy a lotto ticket. ;)

Paladine
04-10-2010, 01:50 PM
I could be wrong, but it seems like Sharon is the only one who has publicly made any statements. Have any of the others?
I've seen no other families speak. Other lawyers have. I can't recall offhand which ones, though...

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:50 PM
Where does Sharon live? Holyoke or South Hadley? Cause if it's either of those place I think I have her address.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 01:54 PM
Where does Sharon live? Holyoke or South Hadley? Cause if it's either of those place I think I have her address.
from your last link...
Velazquez lives in the same neighborhood as S. Loubriel, 14, who said he felt butterflies when Prince agreed to go to the winter cotillion with him. They discussed transportation to the dance at school the day she died."
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1243311

maybe check for the Loubriel address...see if it's nearby...

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 01:59 PM
There's 2 Loubriel addresses, both in Springfield. There's an Angeles Chanon in Springfield.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 02:03 PM
I google mapped the addresses and they are 10 miles apart so I don't think it's the same people. But there's an Angeles M. Chanon in South Hadley.

Only Loubriel in Springfield addresses

raeann
04-10-2010, 02:04 PM
The interview with Sharon's mom directly disproves the schools statements, she says that her daughter was suspended a MONTH before Phoebe's death for an argument with her. Yet, the school continues to claim knowledge for only one WEEK.

jmo

Laurence
04-10-2010, 02:11 PM
Now, ain't that something. That she would happen to see Phoebe and happen to point her out, to her biggest apologist, on the same afternoon Phoebe died.
She should buy a lotto ticket. ;)

That story has been out there a while. I remember wondering if it was Sharon that threw the can with her mother driving, but it turned out to not be the case.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 02:11 PM
I wonder if Sharon pointed out Phoebe while she was walking she'd have to drive by Phoebe's house. So if I knew where phoebe lived maybe I could figure out which one is Sharon's address. Because they'd go the shortest route? Maybe? I don't know. lol

Laurence
04-10-2010, 02:12 PM
I've seen no other families speak. Other lawyers have. I can't recall offhand which ones, though...

No other families... we'd have seen it. When the one that did speak up those quotes from her caused a bombardment of news stories for the next couple of days.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 02:14 PM
I found what I think is Kayla's myspace but inactivity since 2007

Laurence
04-10-2010, 02:15 PM
I wonder if Sharon pointed out Phoebe while she was walking she'd have to drive by Phoebe's house. So if I knew where phoebe lived maybe I could figure out which one is Sharon's address. Because they'd go the shortest route? Maybe? I don't know. lol

Phoebe lived here.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=356+newton+st.+south+hadley&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=356+Newton+St,+South+Hadley,+MA+01075&gl=us&ei=t7_AS6jcJIyknQfEovm0Cg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ8gEwAA

The rented the top floor. The school is 3-4 blocks to the south, and the road is pretty busy (I saw a news broadcast in front of the school and it was heavy traffic).

From the documents released Phoebe was walking home on the right side of the road (same as the school as you look at the map) when the can was thrown at her.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:18 PM
I wonder if Sharon pointed out Phoebe while she was walking she'd have to drive by Phoebe's house. So if I knew where phoebe lived maybe I could figure out which one is Sharon's address. Because they'd go the shortest route? Maybe? I don't know. lol

Phoebe's address was 356 Newton St...a search will verify that...

Muffet
04-10-2010, 02:19 PM
I'm assuming there's enough evidence to bring the stat rape. FB comments, texts, myspace messages. His own admission? Someone has had to admit it. Boy oh boy..this idiot.

That's what I'm thinking, too. They simply admitted it. I can see them admitting it if LE asked or told them they heard it was the reason the girls were calling Phoebe a w****.

MA does have rigid rules on statutory rape, and that would normally have me up in arms, but I can see a good case for it in the context of this case, with these kids, because it really shouldn't be just chrono age that matters, IMO.

ie, I think it speaks volumes that Phoebe was 14 until November 24. She was also new to the country and school.

The guys, OTOH, were not only seniors, but one was a 17 y/o leader, "the class flirt," and the other is already 18.

There's a huge discrepancy in power there, and that's what matters most, imo.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:23 PM
OT, at this time, but this is an older interesting run4chocolate blog post that illustrates the hypocrisy of some SHHS students, imo. One is mentioned in this blog post to have called Phoebe names, having admitted such online, per sauerkraut, yet went on video on ABC professing her sadness...she is a teammate of Kayla Narey...she is named...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/the-girl-who-called-phoebe-prince-an-irish-whore/

jjenny
04-10-2010, 02:24 PM
That's what I'm thinking, too. They simply admitted it. I can see them admitting it if LE asked or told them they heard it was the reason the girls were calling Phoebe a w****.

MA does have rigid rules on statutory rape, and that would normally have me up in arms, but I can see a good case for it in the context of this case, with these kids, because it really shouldn't be just chrono age that matters, IMO.

ie, I think it speaks volumes that Phoebe was 14 until November 24. She was also new to the country and school.

The guys, OTOH, were not only seniors, but one was a 17 y/o leader, "the class flirt," and the other is already 18.

There's a huge discrepancy in power there, and that's what matters most, imo.

I sincerely doubt their lawyers would advise them to talk to LE or to admit anything of the sort.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:27 PM
Some had mentioned earlier that it's possible the boys simply told the police they were 'intimate' with Phoebe figuring it wouldn't be a big deal. They may have signed police statements. I think it's a real possibility.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 02:27 PM
That's what I'm thinking, too. They simply admitted it. I can see them admitting it if LE asked or told them they heard it was the reason the girls were calling Phoebe a w****.

MA does have rigid rules on statutory rape, and that would normally have me up in arms, but I can see a good case for it in the context of this case, with these kids, because it really shouldn't be just chrono age that matters, IMO.

ie, I think it speaks volumes that Phoebe was 14 until November 24. She was also new to the country and school.

The guys, OTOH, were not only seniors, but one was a 17 y/o leader, "the class flirt," and the other is already 18.

There's a huge discrepancy in power there, and that's what matters most, imo.

Don't have anything to add but just wanted to say I totally agree with all of this ;)

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:30 PM
I sincerely doubt their lawyers would advise them to talk to LE or to admit anything of the sort.
It may have been near the beginning, though, jjenny...before they thought this would blow up. Some felt secure enough to pretend to hang themselves in jest, just two days later...I can see it. They seem arrogant enough, to me.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 02:30 PM
OT, at this time, but this is an older interesting run4chocolate blog post that illustrates the hypocrisy of some SHHS students, imo. One is mentioned in this blog post to have called Phoebe names, having admitted such online, per sauerkraut, yet went on video on ABC professing her sadness...she is a teammate of Kayla Narey...she is named...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/the-girl-who-called-phoebe-prince-an-irish-whore/

On this girls myspace page she also has a tribute to Phoebe. I personally have not seen the evidence that she called Phoebe names, but there have been several references to the fact that she did which began to make me feel like Phoebe really had a very very small amount of friends, especially considering of the ones I've seen nobody mentions her until after she died.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:31 PM
The interview with Sharon's mom directly disproves the schools statements, she says that her daughter was suspended a MONTH before Phoebe's death for an argument with her. Yet, the school continues to claim knowledge for only one WEEK.

jmo
Good catch! :clap:

Muffet
04-10-2010, 02:33 PM
I sincerely doubt their lawyers would advise them to talk to LE or to admit anything of the sort.
No doubt. That doesn't mean they didn't admit it before they got lawyered-up, though.

There were several weeks of LE and school investigation before charges were pressed, and I think that conversation would likely have been right at the first, before they thought they'd need a lawyer.

They also might have admitted it to school authorities.

jjenny
04-10-2010, 02:39 PM
IF these teenagers were admitting to any such conduct (which is a big IF) then it would appear they have no comprehension of what the laws are.
Personally I agree with this columnist's opinion.
'The statutory rape charges are especially troubling, assuming the sex was consensual. Teenage boys engage in this conduct with teenage girls every day without being prosecuted. That activity, however unwise, does not suddenly acquire criminal overtones because the girl involved killed herself."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/06/AR2010040601901.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Paladine
04-10-2010, 02:44 PM
On this girls myspace page she also has a tribute to Phoebe. I personally have not seen the evidence that she called Phoebe names, but there have been several references to the fact that she did which began to make me feel like Phoebe really had a very very small amount of friends, especially considering of the ones I've seen nobody mentions her until after she died.
The blog post has copy and paste from her foamspring. She pretty much admits it...so, if the foamspring is authentic, and it's from sauerkraut, so I have no reason to doubt it, it seems black and white to me.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 02:55 PM
No doubt. That doesn't mean they didn't admit it before they got lawyered-up, though.

There were several weeks of LE and school investigation before charges were pressed, and I think that conversation would likely have been right at the first, before they thought they'd need a lawyer.

They also might have admitted it to school authorities.

I've been thinking that they did admit it when the police first talked to them. I don't know if the DA would risk a charge like this on just online posts or texting as evidence.

It's also possible they admitted to sex with other girls as well. If the detailed documents for the second three are released I imagine we'll know how the charges came about.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 03:01 PM
Interesting point over on MassLive forum about Phoebe's lawyers going after the records of the bullies in return...

http://www.masslive.com/forums/southhadley/index.ssf?artid=74087

The poster concerned_father2 points out that they might pull additional stat rape items for Sean/Austin from these.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 03:02 PM
The blog post has copy and paste from her foamspring. She pretty much admits it...so, if the foamspring is authentic, and it's from sauerkraut, so I have no reason to doubt it, it seems black and white to me.

yeah I had seen it there too - meant to add that but forgot :) Mean to say I personally didn't see it firsthand on the girls pages myself. Apparently she also had a myspace entry, not sure if there is a copy and paste of that or just quotes.

jjenny
04-10-2010, 03:07 PM
Interesting point over on MassLive forum about Phoebe's lawyers going after the records of the bullies in return...

http://www.masslive.com/forums/southhadley/index.ssf?artid=74087

The poster concerned_father2 points out that they might pull additional stat rape items for Sean/Austin from these.

Maybe there are lawyers here who can enlighten me. What exactly does defense lawyer's request for information have to do with prosecution potentially asking for information? It's not like prosecution has to wait for defense to ask for something in order to do an investigation.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 03:07 PM
Phoebe lived here.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=356+newton+st.+south+hadley&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=356+Newton+St,+South+Hadley,+MA+01075&gl=us&ei=t7_AS6jcJIyknQfEovm0Cg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ8gEwAA

The rented the top floor. The school is 3-4 blocks to the south, and the road is pretty busy (I saw a news broadcast in front of the school and it was heavy traffic).

From the documents released Phoebe was walking home on the right side of the road (same as the school as you look at the map) when the can was thrown at her.

Do we know if Phoebe and Sharon live close? Because the address I have for her puts them at living 3 miles apart.

The address is an apartment complex it looks like

Muffet
04-10-2010, 03:11 PM
IF these teenagers were admitting to any such conduct (which is a big IF) then it would appear they have no comprehension of what the laws are.
Personally I agree with this columnist's opinion.
'The statutory rape charges are especially troubling, assuming the sex was consensual. Teenage boys engage in this conduct with teenage girls every day without being prosecuted. That activity, however unwise, does not suddenly acquire criminal overtones because the girl involved killed herself."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/06/AR2010040601901.html?hpid=opinionsbox1 The boys around here sure know what qualifies as "jail bait" is; it's a common phrase. I believe these boys knew the laws too, but they just expected to be given a pass.

After all, these kids admitted a lot of things to a lot of people, starting with publicly bragging on their tormenting of the poor dead girl.

That sounds more like hubris than naivete, to me. :no:

If MA starts going around charging kids for statutory rape based only on age, I'll be there with you, carrying the banner against them.

In this case, I do see an abuse, so I'm not going to protest. This is the sort of abuse of power statutory rape laws are meant to restrain.

jjenny
04-10-2010, 03:16 PM
I would think abuse of power should apply to an adult in position of power such as teacher, counselor, etc, not to another minor even if that minor is described as a "flirt."

raeann
04-10-2010, 03:16 PM
Maybe there are lawyers here who can enlighten me. What exactly does defense lawyer's request for information have to do with prosecution potentially asking for information? It's not like prosecution has to wait for defense to ask for something in order to do an investigation.

There are always certain things that the prosecution can not bring into a trial, UNLESS the defense opens a legal gateway for them to do so by presenting certain information during their portion of trial testimony.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 03:19 PM
There's another formspring that's still active.. The girl says she's over 18 so I'm going to p ost it.

http://www.formspring.me/katieelizabethh

jjenny
04-10-2010, 03:19 PM
There are always certain things that the prosecution can not bring into a trial, UNLESS the defense opens a legal gateway for them to do so by presenting certain information during their portion of trial testimony.

There are nowhere near trial yet.

raeann
04-10-2010, 03:26 PM
There are nowhere near trial yet.

That is obvious, and there may NEVER be a trial. However, if the defense is requesting the records at this point, the prosecution also must move to prepare themselves ahead of time. They can not wait and run out and try to do that AFTER the trial begins. In the long run, there is probably a high percentage chance that several, if not all, of these kids will make plea bargains after numerous trial date delays.

JMO

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 03:28 PM
There are nowhere near trial yet.

So...we can't talk about the trial then since it's not happening for months...??:waitasec:

jjenny
04-10-2010, 03:30 PM
That is obvious, and there may NEVER be a trial. However, if the defense is requesting the records at this point, the prosecution also must move to prepare themselves ahead of time. They can not wait and run out and try to do that AFTER the trial begins. In the long run, there is probably a high percentage chance that several, if not all, of these kids will make plea bargains after numerous trial date delays.

JMO

One would think prosecution would preparing ahead of time regardless of whether defense requests information or not.
Also, I presume that just because defense requests information does not mean they will get it. The judge will rule whether it's relevant or not. I would think that if the judge rules it's not relevant then defense will not get it.

Muffet
04-10-2010, 03:37 PM
I would think abuse of power should apply to an adult in position of power such as teacher, counselor, etc, not to another minor even if that minor is described as a "flirt."

I posted the reasons in #175. It was a lot more than just the "flirt" ID.

Bottom line: We can agree to disagree on this one, and please do PM me if there's another case, because we might well agree on it. :) I'm usually not supportive of the DAs on these charges.

I also think sex offender registry laws are messed up, and they should draw a clear distinction between types of offense, in all cases. In this case, I expect that will be the worst these boys have to deal with, unless/until the law is fixed, as it should be.

Other than that, the law says "up to" life in prison wop, but it doesn't require it. I'm going to wait and see what penalty they are given before I protest in their defense. Until then, I'm just happy they weren't given a complete pass.

raeann
04-10-2010, 03:48 PM
One would think prosecution would preparing ahead of time regardless of whether defense requests information or not.
Also, just because defense requests information does not mean they will get it. The judge will rule whether it's relevant or not. If the judge rules it's not relevant then defense will not get it.

They are and have been preparing the prosecution...the point of the article being referenced was the fact that the defense request would open the door for some alternative approaches. I am quite familiar, as are many here, with defense requests, the fact that judges rule on motions etc. That is not even remotely close to what the issue is here, those types of requests are made and receive judicial decisions in every case. The issue, once again, is the indication that the defense is heading toward a 'blaming the victim' defense posture.

Everyone's opinion has value here, no matter whether their inclination is to excuse the behavior as "kids will be kids", or whether they feel outraged by the actions toward Phoebe. Those of us with a background in legal areas will see things differently than those who have been the victims of bullies, and those people will see things from a different view than someone who more closely identifies with those who are accused. That is what makes this forum interesting.

jmoo

Cyan
04-10-2010, 04:03 PM
I am going to post my piece... which may ruffle some feathers. I'm sorry if it does, but it's my opinion on the matter. You don't have to continue reading if you don't like it and if you feel the need to respond and be snarky, likewise, I don't have to continue reading. Again, this is simply my opinion.

I do NOT condone what these children have done. They HAVE harassed someone and intimidated someone, those things being against the law, let them face the consequences. One thing that I feel is being overlooked, as much as many people don't want to say it, is that they are still teenagers and children themselves! I know enough adults that harass and intimidate others. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that the fact is being overlooked.

I believe that there may have been a couple of underlying problems in this situation. I believe that Phoebe may have been homesick, for the obvious reasons and beyond. I also believe that she was deeply distraught over the fact that some of the harassment came from two former boyfriends?

I also have to wonder if Phoebe and her parents were not aware of their rights and alternatives. Phoebe could have continued to put up with the crap as many often do. Her parents also could have home schooled her through traditional means or through distance learning. They could have contacted the school superintendent and the police sooner. That however, is where I am a bit confused, because some reports give the impression that her parents did not know of the harassment until it was too late, and some where else I believe that I read that they had spoken to the school about the matter previously.

Suicide is not a normal reaction to name calling, pushing, and shoving. I along with many others were treated on an equally despicable scale for years on end. If I had a penny for each time I had been called a whore, slut or any other inappropriate name... For each time that people simply teased me about my first name, kicked in the face or punched, shoved, had things thrown at me or knocked from my hands, for every inappropriate sexual comment, inappropriate touch, or every penis that I had flashed at me.... I could easily put myself through college on it. I never once considered suicide and neither did many others. My home life wasn't great and I had no friends other than whoever I may have been dating at the time. However, I hadn't just recently arrived from another country. And yes, I even faced harassment due to the racial composition of my family. The harassment didn't stop at school.. Neighborhood kids quite often stole things from my home, illegally entered my family's property, and at one point even spray painted the side of the family home. I simply did not express to them my anger, would smile or blow kisses at them, make a witty comeback, and move on with my life and allow karma to take its course. When the harassment started coming from two particular school staff members, I took control of the situation.

I have to say that it is not the fault alone of the bullies. Again, I DEFINITELY do not approve of what has happened by means, but there were alternatives and Phoebe alone made the ultimate decision to take her life. As horrible as some may take this to be, did she not have proper coping skills? This kind of behavior continues throughout life unfortunately... We have employers who treat employees like crap and get away with it because the law only protects certain groups of people. We have neighbors that treat each other like poo. There are far worse things in the world than being called nasty names and hit and wished dead. Is it possible that she suffered from depression or anxiety before these events occurred... maybe even being depressed from the turnover in her romantic relationships?

Again, I'm sorry if some people are offended by this post. I just want people to consider deeply that the behavior of the other students was probably not the ONLY factor in her actions.

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 04:14 PM
I am going to post my piece... which may ruffle some feathers. I'm sorry if it does, but it's my opinion on the matter. You don't have to continue reading if you don't like it and if you feel the need to respond and be snarky, likewise, I don't have to continue reading. Again, this is simply my opinion.

I do NOT condone what these children have done. They HAVE harassed someone and intimidated someone, those things being against the law, let them face the consequences. One thing that I feel is being overlooked, as much as many people don't want to say it, is that they are still teenagers and children themselves! I know enough adults that harass and intimidate others. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that the fact is being overlooked.

I believe that there may have been a couple of underlying problems in this situation. I believe that Phoebe may have been homesick, for the obvious reasons and beyond. I also believe that she was deeply distraught over the fact that some of the harassment came from two former boyfriends?

I also have to wonder if Phoebe and her parents were not aware of their rights and alternatives. Phoebe could have continued to put up with the crap as many often do. Her parents also could have home schooled her through traditional means or through distance learning. They could have contacted the school superintendent and the police sooner. That however, is where I am a bit confused, because some reports give the impression that her parents did not know of the harassment until it was too late, and some where else I believe that I read that they had spoken to the school about the matter previously.

Suicide is not a normal reaction to name calling, pushing, and shoving. I along with many others were treated on an equally despicable scale for years on end. If I had a penny for each time I had been called a whore, slut or any other inappropriate name... For each time that people simply teased me about my first name, kicked in the face or punched, shoved, had things thrown at me or knocked from my hands, for every inappropriate sexual comment, inappropriate touch, or every penis that I had flashed at me.... I could easily put myself through college on it. I never once considered suicide and neither did many others. My home life wasn't great and I had no friends other than whoever I may have been dating at the time. However, I hadn't just recently arrived from another country. And yes, I even faced harassment due to the racial composition of my family. The harassment didn't stop at school.. Neighborhood kids quite often stole things from my home, illegally entered my family's property, and at one point even spray painted the side of the family home. I simply did not express to them my anger, would smile or blow kisses at them, make a witty comeback, and move on with my life and allow karma to take its course. When the harassment started coming from two particular school staff members, I took control of the situation.

I have to say that it is not the fault alone of the bullies. Again, I DEFINITELY do not approve of what has happened by means, but there were alternatives and Phoebe alone made the ultimate decision to take her life. As horrible as some may take this to be, did she not have proper coping skills? This kind of behavior continues throughout life unfortunately... We have employers who treat employees like crap and get away with it because the law only protects certain groups of people. We have neighbors that treat each other like poo. There are far worse things in the world than being called nasty names and hit and wished dead. Is it possible that she suffered from depression or anxiety before these events occurred... maybe even being depressed from the turnover in her romantic relationships?

Again, I'm sorry if some people are offended by this post. I just want people to consider deeply that the behavior of the other students was probably not the ONLY factor in her actions.

I think you bring up some interesting points. I don't necessarily agree though. Everyone here has been called names, but i think they reason there is a case against these kids is that it went BEYOND normal bullying. She was made to feel physically threatened.

And how would you judge ones strength? Obviously there is normal bullying, and extreme cases of torment and stalking (not Phoebes case specifically). But in a court, would you have to set a standard that is the "normal" level of ones ability to cope, and if someone is less than that standard, then more blame lies on outlying factors? Or would outlying factors (such as history of depression), would those work against the defendants or in favor of them. One could argue that she was weaker, but one could also argue that depression is a type of illness or disability, then that opens up a whole new set of circumstances...

Hm...I don't think i explained myself very well...I guess I'm just not quite sure how this all works or how it will play out. i would love to hear a lawyers take on this.

But like I said, interesting analysis. I'm not sure I agree, but it is one angle to look out, and may very well be one that plays out in court.

OrdinaryLife
04-10-2010, 04:21 PM
Suicide is what someone does when they believe they are a nothing. Worthless. Have absolutely no redeemable factor in their life or for others. Their life essence is racked in pain and they believe they cannot be fixed on any possible level. To remove their pain, to remove what they believe is truth by the action, lack of actions, the words, or the lack of words, they take their lives by their own hands. No one will miss them. Why would they? These victims of suicide remove themselves from this earth because they are nothing and everyone would be better off with them gone. That is their truth at that moment...

Ms Prince attended this school for only 3 months before she took her life. It was riddled, 7 days a week, via at school, texting, and computer. Not "harmless" pranks, but vicious attacks towards her. She literally just turned 15 years old in mid November. How does a young teen suppose to have coping skills when they are just coming into the this next part of their lives? They do not have them yet. Only time teaches. What she learned in her young teen time was she was a nothing. Peer pressure is horrible enough without the severe ugliness that so many, like Phoebe, endure.

imvho

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 04:26 PM
Is it possible that she was examined in her lady bits to tell if she was still a virgin or not? I mean I know it's certainly possible right?

stmarysmead
04-10-2010, 04:27 PM
Cyan, I can see the logic in what you are saying. But here is where my view may be a bit different.

If you have a group of thugs that make a practice (and 3 months would be making a practice)...of, say, shoving people to the street. Maybe people usually get up...some more bruised and hurt than others...but they get up.

If one day, they shove a heart patient to the ground and that person dies...by our law, they would be responsible for that death.

It's regrettable that civility, or moral values or common decency does not stop vile behavior. But those who practice vile behavior must be held accountable IMO...even if their victim has some underlying problem that contributed.

If that heart victim in mt analogy had not be brutally shoved, chances are he would not have died. If Phoebe had not been relentlessly bullied, chances are she would not have taken her life.

The bullying was without question making her life "unbearable." That cannot be dismissed in the equation. Therefore, the perpetrators must be held accountable.

OrdinaryLife
04-10-2010, 04:28 PM
Is it possible that she was examined in her lady bits to tell if she was still a virgin or not? I mean I know it's certainly possible right?

I am positive there was a complete autopsy done and results in ME records.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 04:38 PM
I am positive there was a complete autopsy done and results in ME records.

Then if her lady bits were examined then it should prove she's not a virgin?

I just had an ugly flash in my mind of her not actually being the one who tied that noose around her neck. Could it be possible that these girls actually did it?

OrdinaryLife
04-10-2010, 04:46 PM
Then if her lady bits were examined then it should prove she's not a virgin?

I just had an ugly flash in my mind of her not actually being the one who tied that noose around her neck. Could it be possible that these girls actually did it?

I would assume so, but I'm no MD. I leave those results up to the experts. As far as others personally involved with hanging, I have to say no. I do not believe so.

imvho

Paladine
04-10-2010, 04:47 PM
So...we can't talk about the trial then since it's not happening for months...??:waitasec:
I've been talking about the potential ANS trial for 4 years...lol...and it STILL hasn't happened. Talk on, Buddy...;)

Cyan
04-10-2010, 04:48 PM
Cyan, I can see the logic in what you are saying. But here is where my view may be a bit different.

If you have a group of thugs that make a practice (and 3 months would be making a practice)...of, say, shoving people to the street. Maybe people usually get up...some more bruised and hurt than others...but they get up.

If one day, they shove a heart patient to the ground and that person dies...by our law, they would be responsible for that death.

It's regrettable that civility, or moral values or common decency does not stop vile behavior. But those who practice vile behavior must be held accountable IMO...even if their victim has some underlying problem that contributed.

If that heart victim in mt analogy had not be brutally shoved, chances are he would not have died. If Phoebe had not been relentlessly bullied, chances are she would not have taken her life.

The bullying was without question making her life "unbearable." That cannot be dismissed in the equation. Therefore, the perpetrators must be held accountable.

I never said DON'T hold them accountable. I was simply saying that I don't believe it was the SOLE/ONLY factor in the matter is all.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 04:51 PM
Then if her lady bits were examined then it should prove she's not a virgin?

I just had an ugly flash in my mind of her not actually being the one who tied that noose around her neck. Could it be possible that these girls actually did it?
I have my suspicions. They seemed pretty intent on confronting her that last day, didn't they? I can't WAIT for the trial...

thebear14
04-10-2010, 05:01 PM
I have my suspicions. They seemed pretty intent on confronting her that last day, didn't they? I can't WAIT for the trial...

This is something I've been wondering too. What is is about that last day or week that made them really turn up the heat? While we don't have an exact time line - from reading the indictments and other things it seems she started dating Sean sometime in the beginning of the school year and they broke up in November. Therefore the three girls associated with Sean probably were harassing her the whole time. Apparently the fling with Austin happened sometime in December, although we don't know the exact date or nature of that fling so I'm guessing the other three girls started their harassment after they found out about that. It seems from early January till Jan 14th things got progressively worse and just completely out of hand. I mean that last day alone was just thing after thing after thing. Is it that these two groups kind of combined efforts and it just ended up getting really out of control? I still get confused about which girls are which so I apologize if that sounded stupid - when I read stories about these girls their names sort of all blur together ;)

Paladine
04-10-2010, 05:10 PM
Again, I'm sorry if some people are offended by this post. I just want people to consider deeply that the behavior of the other students was probably not the ONLY factor in her actions.
respectfully snipped by me...

I posted a link earlier to a lawyers blog. He mentioned the "eggshell theory". It doesn't matter, he said, how fragile a person is...
"The line between civil and criminal matters is, at times, a thin one. For example, if you hit me, I can call the police and have you arrested. It is assault. However, I can also sue you civilly for any damages that you caused. In fact, if I was extra sensitive to such an assault, you will be liable for the damages you caused whether you knew about my weakness or not. It is called “Eggshell Theory”.
http://www.bostoncriminallawyerblog.com/2010/04/investigations_into_massachusetts_bullying_indictm ents_continue_to_spread_guilt.html

Cyan
04-10-2010, 05:10 PM
I think you bring up some interesting points. I don't necessarily agree though. Everyone here has been called names, but i think they reason there is a case against these kids is that it went BEYOND normal bullying. She was made to feel physically threatened.

And how would you judge ones strength? Obviously there is normal bullying, and extreme cases of torment and stalking (not Phoebes case specifically). But in a court, would you have to set a standard that is the "normal" level of ones ability to cope, and if someone is less than that standard, then more blame lies on outlying factors? Or would outlying factors (such as history of depression), would those work against the defendants or in favor of them. One could argue that she was weaker, but one could also argue that depression is a type of illness or disability, then that opens up a whole new set of circumstances...

Hm...I don't think i explained myself very well...I guess I'm just not quite sure how this all works or how it will play out. i would love to hear a lawyers take on this.

But like I said, interesting analysis. I'm not sure I agree, but it is one angle to look out, and may very well be one that plays out in court.

I think I understand what you are saying. There's no doubt that she was harassed, and in my opinion they should be punished. I believe that they will be found guilty of that and some of the other charges regardless.

It also occurred to me that the school was previously aware of the harassment but had done nothing to punish the students until Phoebe took her life. Although it was a moral move, I find myself baffled by this... The school wouldn't punish any of them initially for what they had witnessed taking place or that had been reported. Did the school only have the students removed as a way to avoid more public backlash than what they already knew would be coming? For example, how does their failure to intervene appropriately differ from a group of 7 teenagers beating a girl and one of the 7 refuses to participate but does nothing to stop it and the other 6 murder the girl.. Such as what occurred with Shanda Sharer.

"violation of civil rights resulting in injury" - what else, specifically, occurred asides from the name calling to result in that charge? Not dissecting that, it's a genuine question.

thebear14
04-10-2010, 05:11 PM
Hi all - this is a little off topic but hope you don't mind me sharing. I believe yesterday the issue of there being virtually no recent pictures of Phoebe came up and also the fact that it seems she had very few real, true close friends while here, if any. I was on one of the Facebook Memorial pages for Phoebe and noticed someone asked if a certain picture was taken here or in Ireland and someone responded that it must have been Ireland as no pictures were taken at SHHS. I decided to message that person to clarify what he/she meant by that and this was the response:

There are 2 known pictures taken while at SHHS. One was a cell phone pic on this group with the orange scarf. The other is what appears to be a scan of a picture possibly taken for a yearbook of a class type photo.

IMO, Phoebe had no real friends at SHHS though many have come out after her death dramatically acting as best friends. One of the most vocal mourners was found to have tweeted 4 days before her death calling her an irish whore and making a threat at the dance.

It is a little known theory to the general public that a significant factor of Phoebe reaching the point of feeling such despair and totally alone may have been realization those she thought were friends were backstabbing her.

One would think that even if she had people that she just hung out with but wasn't necessarily close with that more recent pictures would be floating around. then there's also the fact that those who seem or claim to have been her friend also support sean and the administration. It's difficult to tell if there's just something we're missing or these kids don't see what we see or they just weren't as good friends as they'd make it seem. Who knows.

Cyan
04-10-2010, 05:13 PM
respectfully snipped by me...

I posted a link earlier to a lawyers blog. He mentioned the "eggshell theory". It doesn't matter, he said, how fragile a person is...

http://www.bostoncriminallawyerblog.com/2010/04/investigations_into_massachusetts_bullying_indictm ents_continue_to_spread_guilt.html

Thanks :) You made that post as I was typing up the last one that I made... I spend about 12 hours a day reading and writing for my job, by the time I get to read anything for myself everything blurs together and things get overlooked.

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 05:15 PM
They've accepted me into the Sean support group!! OMG OMG

Paladine
04-10-2010, 05:16 PM
This is something I've been wondering too. What is is about that last day or week that made them really turn up the heat? While we don't have an exact time line - from reading the indictments and other things it seems she started dating Sean sometime in the beginning of the school year and they broke up in November. Therefore the three girls associated with Sean probably were harassing her the whole time. Apparently the fling with Austin happened sometime in December, although we don't know the exact date or nature of that fling so I'm guessing the other three girls started their harassment after they found out about that. It seems from early January till Jan 14th things got progressively worse and just completely out of hand. I mean that last day alone was just thing after thing after thing. Is it that these two groups kind of combined efforts and it just ended up getting really out of control? I still get confused about which girls are which so I apologize if that sounded stupid - when I read stories about these girls their names sort of all blur together ;)
We have them in the car following her...and then it stops. Nothing more. We don't even know how long she was dead before she was found. How she was hanging, how long was the scarf, where was she hanging, did she carry books, belongings, that day? Where were they? What did the last text messages say? Was the scarf she wore that day the one she was found in? I have many questions...most of all WHERE was she?

To me, from reading the dox, that day more harassment and tension built as the day progressed. Were they done with her?

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 05:19 PM
I think I understand what you are saying. There's no doubt that she was harassed, and in my opinion they should be punished. I believe that they will be found guilty of that and some of the other charges regardless.

It also occurred to me that the school was previously aware of the harassment but had done nothing to punish the students until Phoebe took her life. Although it was a moral move, I find myself baffled by this... The school wouldn't punish any of them initially for what they had witnessed taking place or that had been reported. Did the school only have the students removed as a way to avoid more public backlash than what they already knew would be coming? For example, how does their failure to intervene appropriately differ from a group of 7 teenagers beating a girl and one of the 7 refuses to participate but does nothing to stop it and the other 6 murder the girl.. Such as what occurred with Shanda Sharer.

"violation of civil rights resulting in injury" - what else, specifically, occurred asides from the name calling to result in that charge? Not dissecting that, it's a genuine question.

there was evidence that objects had been thrown at her, also i believe she had been shoved into a locker. would verbal threats of violence count under that charge?


ugh, my shift key isn't working, sorry for the lack of capital letters

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 05:19 PM
They've accepted me into the Sean support group!! OMG OMG

Full report, STAT!

:dance:

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm reading his page and I've noticed a few of his friends have gone on the phoebe support pages and trashed her.

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 05:20 PM
I've been talking about the potential ANS trial for 4 years...lol...and it STILL hasn't happened. Talk on, Buddy...;)

Well then, with your permission I will! ;)

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 05:21 PM
There's a chic with the last name RAINAUD

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 05:25 PM
Nothing but a bunch of blah blah blah I love and support you bs. Interesting that the chic who made the page is class of 08. Her profile pic is of her in jeans and what appears to be a skimpy bathing suit top.

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 05:26 PM
I'm reading his page and I've noticed a few of his friends have gone on the phoebe support pages and trashed her.

My guess is that rather than feeling sad that someones life was lost, they are blaming here for the media circus...are people really that heartless?

Paladine
04-10-2010, 05:32 PM
Hi all - this is a little off topic but hope you don't mind me sharing. I believe yesterday the issue of there being virtually no recent pictures of Phoebe came up and also the fact that it seems she had very few real, true close friends while here, if any. I was on one of the Facebook Memorial pages for Phoebe and noticed someone asked if a certain picture was taken here or in Ireland and someone responded that it must have been Ireland as no pictures were taken at SHHS. I decided to message that person to clarify what he/she meant by that and this was the response:

There are 2 known pictures taken while at SHHS. One was a cell phone pic on this group with the orange scarf. The other is what appears to be a scan of a picture possibly taken for a yearbook of a class type photo.

IMO, Phoebe had no real friends at SHHS though many have come out after her death dramatically acting as best friends. One of the most vocal mourners was found to have tweeted 4 days before her death calling her an irish whore and making a threat at the dance.
It is a little known theory to the general public that a significant factor of Phoebe reaching the point of feeling such despair and totally alone may have been realization those she thought were friends were backstabbing her.

One would think that even if she had people that she just hung out with but wasn't necessarily close with that more recent pictures would be floating around. then there's also the fact that those who seem or claim to have been her friend also support sean and the administration. It's difficult to tell if there's just something we're missing or these kids don't see what we see or they just weren't as good friends as they'd make it seem. Who knows.
I think I understand the mindset.

IMO, it's a small community. I come from a small community that hates "outsiders". The school and culture seem, from my reading, to have been this way for decades. I've read many personal accounts of former SHHS students saying how bad it was, the bullying and lack of action by the administration. But when it's all you know, you have a blurred point a reference...it's their normal, I think. I think they really can't see it. Sometimes when there is a sense of US or THEM, people tend to go where the larger numbers are. As a rule, from my experience, people don't want to be ostracized in a small community. It's too small, there's nowhere to turn.

South Hadley needs to know that most people aren't attacking them...they are standing for the weak.

P.S. I think that bolded part might refer to the same girl (I linked to a run4chocolate blog about earlier...)

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 05:34 PM
My guess is that rather than feeling sad that someones life was lost, they are blaming here for the media circus...are people really that heartless?

One comment

Seany, Seany..all these girls on here(supporters), need help bullying the girl who Stole their 'man'..please help, Seany!!

F*ck what the media says. I don't think you deserve anything of what you got. Keep your head up sean <33

thebear14
04-10-2010, 05:35 PM
We have them in the car following her...and then it stops. Nothing more. We don't even know how long she was dead before she was found. How she was hanging, how long was the scarf, where was she hanging, did she carry books, belongings, that day? Where were they? What did the last text messages say? Was the scarf she wore that day the one she was found in? I have many questions...most of all WHERE was she?

To me, from reading the dox, that day more harassment and tension built as the day progressed. Were they done with her?

I was wondering more along the lines of what exactly happened during those last two weeks to make the harassment become basically nonstop. Especially if the days prior to Jan. 14 were anything like that particular day.

However, I understand your interest regarding the kind of vague information given about how she was found, etc. I remember something about 2:48 p.m. - I believe that's what time she sent the last text message then she received two that she didn't open so she must have died between 2:48 p.m. and whatever time those texts were sent. It doesn't seem that she went home and immediately hung herself which would make more sense, to me. I don't know the exact time they get out of school, but I think she was probably texting whoever she was texting while at home. I thought the 911 call had been around 4:30, but I believe in the indictment paperwork it was closer to 5 that her sister made the 911 call.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 05:40 PM
Is it possible that she was examined in her lady bits to tell if she was still a virgin or not? I mean I know it's certainly possible right?

They better have looked. Hopefully they checked for signs of abuse in the autopsy...

Laurence
04-10-2010, 05:45 PM
IMO, it's a small community. I come from a small community that hates "outsiders". The school and culture seem, from my reading, to have been this way for decades. I've read many personal accounts of former SHHS students saying how bad it was, the bullying and lack of action by the administration. But when it's all you know, you have a blurred point a reference...it's their normal, I think. I think they really can't see it. Sometimes when there is a sense of US or THEM, people tend to go where the larger numbers are. As a rule, from my experience, people don't want to be ostracized in a small community. It's too small, there's nowhere to turn.

I've seen some of those accounts too, and given the way they've closed ranks around these people, what with the Sean/Austin support groups and the *****ing about the MEDIA causing all these problems... they are insular.

And Phoebe, the CAUSE of this in their minds, was definately an outsider. Her voice and accent would have made her stand out, identifying her more as not belonging.

I think HP Lovecraft would have had a field day with town, many of his horror stories were set in clannish, unfriendly New England towns.

And I have GOT to finish raking the yard before it rains... I was late last fall and the finally melted snow has given me back my leaf covered yard. :)

Paladine
04-10-2010, 05:45 PM
This is something I've been wondering too. What is is about that last day or week that made them really turn up the heat? While we don't have an exact time line - from reading the indictments and other things it seems she started dating Sean sometime in the beginning of the school year and they broke up in November. Therefore the three girls associated with Sean probably were harassing her the whole time. Apparently the fling with Austin happened sometime in December, although we don't know the exact date or nature of that fling so I'm guessing the other three girls started their harassment after they found out about that. It seems from early January till Jan 14th things got progressively worse and just completely out of hand. I mean that last day alone was just thing after thing after thing. Is it that these two groups kind of combined efforts and it just ended up getting really out of control? I still get confused about which girls are which so I apologize if that sounded stupid - when I read stories about these girls their names sort of all blur together ;)
I imagine things got much worse after Austin. They had ammunition she had supposedly been with someone else. Can you imagine how that may have played right into Sean's hands? SEE? She is a ****! I imagine him blaming his dalliance with her on her evil sexual powers...it's all HER fault, kinda deal.

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 05:49 PM
I've seen some of those accounts too, and given the way they've closed ranks around these people, what with the Sean/Austin support groups and the *****ing about the MEDIA causing all these problems... they are insular.

And Phoebe, the CAUSE of this in their minds, was definately an outsider. Her voice and accent would have made her stand out, identifying her more as not belonging.

I think HP Lovecraft would have had a field day with town, many of his horror stories were set in clannish, unfriendly New England towns.

And I have GOT to finish raking the yard before it rains... I was late last fall and the finally melted snow has given me back my leaf covered yard. :)

I love that you referenced HP Lovecraft! And hey, not ALL New England towns are unfriendly! Those of us who call The 'Shire (New Hampshire) home are mighty friendly!

WaddupYo
04-10-2010, 05:49 PM
Found a Tina Narey Sullivan on this Sean support page

jjenny
04-10-2010, 05:49 PM
"violation of civil rights resulting in injury" - what else, specifically, occurred asides from the name calling to result in that charge? Not dissecting that, it's a genuine question.

I am guessing the injury is her suicide.

Laurence
04-10-2010, 05:52 PM
I love that you referenced HP Lovecraft! And hey, not ALL New England towns are unfriendly! Those of us who call The 'Shire (New Hampshire) home are mighty friendly!

LOL, I discovered him because a lot of the early music by Metallica referenced his stories and I wondered why they found him so interesting... and that probably dates me. :innocent:

Okay, really leaving to work in the yard now...

jjenny
04-10-2010, 05:52 PM
there was evidence that objects had been thrown at her, also i believe she had been shoved into a locker. would verbal threats of violence count under that charge?


ugh, my shift key isn't working, sorry for the lack of capital letters

I believe the witness saw the object, which was an energy drink can, hit the ground. How is that going to cause an injury? There are no allegations of being physically shoved into a locker in the three reports that are public. I am guessing the injury is suicide, what else can it be?

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 05:52 PM
I am guessing the injury is her suicide.

Haha, wow, that seems really obvious now...I feel silly!

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 05:53 PM
The witness saw the object, which was an energy drink can, hit the ground. How is that going to cause an injury? I am guessing the injury is suicide, what else can it be?

Intent to injure maybe?

jjenny
04-10-2010, 06:00 PM
Suicide is what someone does when they believe they are a nothing. Worthless. Have absolutely no redeemable factor in their life or for others. Their life essence is racked in pain and they believe they cannot be fixed on any possible level. To remove their pain, to remove what they believe is truth by the action, lack of actions, the words, or the lack of words, they take their lives by their own hands. No one will miss them. Why would they? These victims of suicide remove themselves from this earth because they are nothing and everyone would be better off with them gone. That is their truth at that moment...



imvho

I presume we are allowed to link to wikipedia? There could be many reasons for suicide so I certainly don't believe that the reason for suicide it's because someone believes they are nothing, and that's it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide

Paladine
04-10-2010, 06:00 PM
I was wondering more along the lines of what exactly happened during those last two weeks to make the harassment become basically nonstop. Especially if the days prior to Jan. 14 were anything like that particular day.

However, I understand your interest regarding the kind of vague information given about how she was found, etc. I remember something about 2:48 p.m. - I believe that's what time she sent the last text message then she received two that she didn't open so she must have died between 2:48 p.m. and whatever time those texts were sent. It doesn't seem that she went home and immediately hung herself which would make more sense, to me. I don't know the exact time they get out of school, but I think she was probably texting whoever she was texting while at home. I thought the 911 call had been around 4:30, but I believe in the indictment paperwork it was closer to 5 that her sister made the 911 call.
Well, apparently, she dated/broke up with Austin in Dec. School would only return around the 3 or so of January, so that gives around 11 days. I'm not sure if something more transpired. And, yes, I've seen 4:30 and closer to 5.

Went to find the school calender to check on dates and had a hard time getting to the site through google. I had to go to the town site to get in. Then I found that SH has removed the faculty page..."no longer present"...sorry, but this town seems more like Russia than America, to me.
http://www.southhadleyschools.org/staff_directory.cfm

jjenny
04-10-2010, 06:04 PM
Haha, wow, that seems really obvious now...I feel silly!

It's a complete guess on my part and I could be totally wrong.

rsorcha
04-10-2010, 06:04 PM
I presume we are allowed to link to wikipedia? There could be many reasons for suicide so I certainly don't believe that the reason for suicide it's because someone believes they are nothing, and that's it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide

There are many reasons for suicide. That just happened to be one of them.

MaureenN
04-10-2010, 06:07 PM
I never said DON'T hold them accountable. I was simply saying that I don't believe it was the SOLE/ONLY factor in the matter is all.

But, I don't think that the charges are implying that, either. They are not being charged with causing her death or suicide. They are being charged for the criminal harassment, stalking, civil rights violations, stat rape, etc.

Paladine
04-10-2010, 06:08 PM
Found a Tina Narey Sullivan on this Sean support page
Her Mothers name is Susan. Might be an Aunt. Once again, here's the obit...has some family members listed. I noticed many Nareys from Holyoke. Which is where the medical examiner is...Dr. Sexton.
http://www.barryjfarrellfuneralhome.com/Nareyray.html

jjenny
04-10-2010, 06:09 PM
But, I don't think that the charges are implying that, either. They are not being charged with causing her death or suicide. They are being charged for the criminal harassment, stalking, civil rights violations, stat rape, etc.

I think it's a safe bet they would not be charged with these things if she did not kill herself.
So, in reality, aren't they really charged because of her suicide?

Paladine
04-10-2010, 06:12 PM
But, I don't think that the charges are implying that, either. They are not being charged with causing her death or suicide. They are being charged for the criminal harassment, stalking, civil rights violations, stat rape, etc.
Exactly. It doesn't matter if she was held together with bandaids! They had no right to harass and stalk her. THAT'S their charge.

AndyRyan
04-10-2010, 06:13 PM
Noticed on one of her "friends" formsprings that she blames Kayla for Sean's involvement saying something along the lines that when people are in relationships they sometimes act out of character for that person because they are blinded, please note these were not exact words but she has taken down her formspring since yesterday so I cannot copy and paste.
I think the questions were getting a little too difficult ( I have a feeling that Sauerkraut may have been behind those questions).
Also a few days ago I did come across a photo link of her which was taken by the same friend, will try to find link.

MaureenN
04-10-2010, 06:16 PM
I think I understand what you are saying. There's no doubt that she was harassed, and in my opinion they should be punished. I believe that they will be found guilty of that and some of the other charges regardless.

It also occurred to me that the school was previously aware of the harassment but had done nothing to punish the students until Phoebe took her life. Although it was a moral move, I find myself baffled by this... The school wouldn't punish any of them initially for what they had witnessed taking place or that had been reported. Did the school only have the students removed as a way to avoid more public backlash than what they already knew would be coming? For example, how does their failure to intervene appropriately differ from a group of 7 teenagers beating a girl and one of the 7 refuses to participate but does nothing to stop it and the other 6 murder the girl.. Such as what occurred with Shanda Sharer.

"violation of civil rights resulting in injury" - what else, specifically, occurred asides from the name calling to result in that charge? Not dissecting that, it's a genuine question.

I believe the civil right in question is the right to an education, free from fear for physical safety, free from harassment

OrdinaryLife
04-10-2010, 06:18 PM
I presume we are allowed to link to wikipedia? There could be many reasons for suicide so I certainly don't believe that the reason for suicide it's because someone believes they are nothing, and that's it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide

Have you experienced suicide within your own friends/family? I hope not, but I ask because I have, unfortunately, several times. The bottom line is that the person who does so is in pain and wants release from it. They do believe they are worthless and unimportant enough to live. I do not need Wikipedia to define it for me. I have had professionals educate me.

imvho

Paladine
04-10-2010, 06:18 PM
Noticed on one of her "friends" formsprings that she blames Kayla for Sean's involvement saying something along the lines that when people are in relationships they sometimes act out of character for that person because they are blinded, please note these were not exact words but she has taken down her formspring since yesterday so I cannot copy and paste.
I think the questions were getting a little too difficult ( I have a feeling that Sauerkraut may have been behind those questions).
Also a few days ago I did come across a photo link of her which was taken by the same friend, will try to find link.
Interesting, thanks for sharing, Andy. :blowkiss: I've read comments that indicate to me, too, they are trying to focus blame on the girls...good for sauerkraut! I have to check sauerkrauts foamspring! I asked another question, yesterday. Anyone care to guess what I asked?...lol...;)