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Paladine
04-15-2010, 10:49 PM
This thread will be for exploring different theory's concerning Phoebe's death.
To attempt to prove, or disprove, suicide/murder possibilities...

fhc
04-15-2010, 10:57 PM
I hadn't even considered this possibility. Is there any specific evidence that would lead us to question?

Paladine
04-15-2010, 11:03 PM
I hadn't even considered this possibility. Is there any specific evidence that would lead us to question?
Evidence? No. We are exploring the possibilty. Some people have questions, including myself. Unfortunately, I'm just on my way out, right now...but l'll be back tomorrow to gather what info I can. And I know some others wanted this thread, too. I'm sure they'll be posting...we'll see what we can pull together...

Lou Cyper
04-16-2010, 06:41 AM
The lack of a note and the suddenness could lead to a murder suggestion.

thebear14
04-16-2010, 08:46 AM
Thanks for starting this thread, Paladine ;) I know you and at least WhaddupYo have been questioning this possibility at least for the past week or two and Kris has really brought in some interesting points and thoughts in the other thread.

I'm kind of torn, myself. I would hope that the police and doctor who performed the autopsy would have picked up on any foul play but who knows. I don't have a lot of faith right now in the people in charge in this town.

I don't have any new thoughts really to add here but just wanted to say thanks for adding this and looking forward to reading everyone's thoughts here.

Phoenixfla
04-16-2010, 09:48 AM
Kris brought up some a good points in the other thread.

1. The length of the scarf. Would it be difficult to have enough length to tie both ends.
2. She had just gotten that scarf from her sister for christmas, from what I understand. It would seem that she would choose another item to use.
3. Location - if you look in the photo thread, you can see that the rear staircase is outside and in a very open location. One would not think that she would choose that location if she did not want to be discovered by her younger sister, or other siblings. The open location also works against the murder theory, as it would have been more apt for someone witnessing a murder.
4. She had plugged her phone in to charge.

I think it is unlikely that it was a murder, but I would not exclude the possibility. Dont want to sound morbid, but it would be nice if someone examined the way the scarf was tied as it would probably be tied different if it was a suicude as opposed to a murder. Just some things to think about.:waitasec:

Boytwnmom
04-16-2010, 10:07 AM
treating a scene as it apepars, i.e. person hung themself, and everything follows from that. I'm looking for info that would indicate whether this is a reasonable area of review or completely out there. I found this article which discusses errors in both ways, homicide determination when its really suicide and vice versa.http://www.crimeandclues.com/index.php/death-investigation/65-pathology/99-ligature-strangulation-not-very-common-but-contested-too-often

Also saw this story from 2006 of an actress whose death was initially ruled a suicidehttp://www.cinematical.com/2006/11/06/adrienne-shelly-update-police-say-its-murder-not-suicide/

On the other hand there are many articles about a rising teen girl suicide rate in 2004 and the method changing to hanging or asphyxiation. One article I read speculated about that rise being linked to the "choking game" apparently played by many young people, another linked it to the rise in the use of prescription anti-depressants by teens.

It is hard to seriously speculate as we have so little to go on in terms of actual police reports, autopsy results, investigative notes so we have no idea how thorough the investigation was, whether there was an immediate conclusion that she had committed suicide and everything flowed from that or whether they gathered facts and drew no conclusion until all the evidence was evaluated. I would really like the state AG's office or the FBI or some agency take an independent look here as I'm not really trusting local officials to any great extent. I also highly doubt local LE have much experience with homicide investigations in South Hadley so even if they meant well how much would escape their notice because of lack of familiarity. Did they just accept what their eyes told them initially, girl killed herself?

fumbling
04-16-2010, 10:21 AM
The first thing is was there any stepchair under her? Any photos taken of the "suicide" scene before she was taken down? I would not like such a terrible scene to be published ever but if a photo showed the absence of anything to step off of, might be supportive of the murder theory by the jealousy-driven harassers? Regardless, they need to serve some serious jail time and the administrators FIRED and a BIG successful civil suit for millions of dollars to set an historic example and get the total attention of school teachers/administrators/faculty/student body on anti-harassment/campus safety in the future so kids can get educated and contribute to society, as Phoebe appeared to be on the way to be with her optimism and writing ability.

daisy7
04-16-2010, 10:42 AM
This thread will be for exploring different theory's concerning Phoebe's death.
To attempt to prove, or disprove, sucide/murder possibilities...

Thanks for starting the thread! I'm gonna move over some posts that I think belong here. Everyone, please let me know other posts that should be here (tell me the post #). Thanks!

Tricia
04-16-2010, 01:13 PM
OK here is the deal. I found out that permission was given to start this topic,

My sincere apologies for the mixed message. I should have checked with the mods first before I shut this down.

Since permission was already given I am going to re-open the thread with the understanding that you are not to point fingers are people.

This has been ruled a suicide. The worst thing we can do is to point fingers at an innocent person claiming they killed someone when a murder didn't even take place.

Please be careful and think of the family while posting. That's all I ask.

Thanks,
Tricia

Paladine
04-16-2010, 01:29 PM
Will do, Tricia. Thank you. We will focus on the logistics, crime scene, house, Phoebes state of mind, etc. Not specific people.

Paladine
04-16-2010, 01:37 PM
This goes to possible state of mind, on the day of death...

In a recreation of her final hours, People says that she was "skipping around" in the morning but her mood deteriorated as the day went on. A pal describes how she was targeted with a "barrage of vicious taunts and vulgar insults".

At first she sought solace in her iPod, about which she had once written: "I have a song for every moment and mood of my day."

But after lunch Phoebe seemed increasingly downbeat. She described an incident of bullying to friends and said: "I'll find a way out of this problem," but they never thought that she was talking about killing herself.
Her death was all the more shocking to friends because she often signed off her text message saying, "life is an opportunity in itself."

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/p...h-2141008.html

Paladine
04-16-2010, 01:43 PM
Good points, boytwnmom. I'm going to go and read your links, now.

I see this thread being more helpful as reports are released. We are lacking evidence..but we have to start somewhere.

Paladine
04-16-2010, 01:50 PM
The first thing is was there any stepchair under her? Any photos taken of the "suicide" scene before she was taken down? I would not like such a terrible scene to be published ever but if a photo showed the absence of anything to step off of, might be supportive of the murder theory by the jealousy-driven harassers? Regardless, they need to serve some serious jail time and the administrators FIRED and a BIG successful civil suit for millions of dollars to set an historic example and get the total attention of school teachers/administrators/faculty/student body on anti-harassment/campus safety in the future so kids can get educated and contribute to society, as Phoebe appeared to be on the way to be with her optimism and writing ability.

Good questions. No idea on crime scene photos, hopefully we'll learn more at trial regarding that. We first need to be sure, where she was. In looking at the house photos, I see a chair and table outside, near the outside stairs. (see pic)

But some are thinking it was an interior rear stairwell. I do see what appears to be a doorway, on the left rear of the house...(see pic with fence)

But if it was there, inside...I can only envision a stairwell going up with a landing at the top, and possibly a railing...where and how would she tie herself?



More questions...

WaddupYo
04-16-2010, 04:07 PM
http://www.facebook.com/pages/THANK-YOU-District-Attorney-Elizabeth-Scheibel/104860852883889?v=wall

just a thought - Phoebe was walking home from school the bullys followed her and taunting at her theres something missing a time frame Phoebe plugged her cell phone in and there was no suicide note so what if not what if (just saying n thinking)she was a tiny girl we need to find out who was in that car cuz Im thinkin...g that if no one was home which she wasnt found till hours later I think it might be murder - no witnesses no note cell plugged in hhhh mmmmm-I dunno -just thinking - somethings not right - she wasnt thinking suicide if she plugged her cell in - more investigation - more questions - no one was home -could be murder-just thinking

OrdinaryLife
04-16-2010, 04:34 PM
http://www.facebook.com/pages/THANK-YOU-District-Attorney-Elizabeth-Scheibel/104860852883889?v=wall

just a thought - Phoebe was walking home from school the bullys followed her and taunting at her theres something missing a time frame Phoebe plugged her cell phone in and there was no suicide note so what if not what if (just saying n thinking)she was a tiny girl we need to find out who was in that car cuz Im thinkin...g that if no one was home which she wasnt found till hours later I think it might be murder - no witnesses no note cell plugged in hhhh mmmmm-I dunno -just thinking - somethings not right - she wasnt thinking suicide if she plugged her cell in - more investigation - more questions - no one was home -could be murder-just thinking

Well, after reading there and visiting the other *hate* sites that poster belongs to, I take "him" about as serious as a wee splinter. Annoying, but will eventually work its way out.

Sorry, WaddupYo. I'm not shooting the messenger. :) I just take what is written by these "people" for what it's worth. Not much.... I can't believe some of these on FB still exist and haven't been pulled.

imvho

Paladine
04-17-2010, 01:18 AM
For background: article from morning of Jan. 15th, the day after Phoebe died...

Investigators probe apparent suicide of teenage girl in South Hadley
By George Graham, The Republican
January 15, 2010, 9:44AM
An updated version of this story is now available at MassLive.

SOUTH HADLEY – Police, along with investigators from the Northwestern District Attorney’s office, are probing the apparent suicide of a teenage girl inside her Newton Street home Thursday afternoon.

Police Chief David J. Labrie Labrie said a 911 caller summoned police to 356 Newton St. about 4:40 p.m.

“They discovered a teenage girl who appeared to have taken her own life,” LaBrie said.

The South Hadley Public School’s Web site has posted a message stating that one of South Hadley High School’s freshman students, a girl, died unexpectedly.

LaBrie said investigators with the Northwestern District Attorney’s office, along with South Hadley police detectives, are investigating.

The police chief declined to release any additional information, including the teen’s name and age.

South Hadley School officials could not be immediately reached for comment.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/investigator_probe_apparent_su.html

Paladine
04-17-2010, 01:30 AM
More background, from Jan. 15th 1:33 p.m...

Phoebe Prince, 15, reportedly took her own life Thursday. Social networking sites, such as Facebook, were active with allegations of bullying leading up to the girl's death and memorials Friday morning. However, a memorial Facebook group for the girl was taken down Friday afternoon after disturbing messages were posted alongside condolences, which further added to speculation the girl had been bullied.

Parents of the girl's friends also echoed the thought that the girl had been bullied.

A representative from Northwestern District Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel's office said Friday they were investigating the death of a 15-year-old girl from South Hadley and that the medical examiner's office would be conducting an autopsy to determine the manner and cause of death. They declined to comment on any circumstances leading up to the girl's death, as they said it would be speculative to do so.
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=11829632&nav=menu1460_2

Paladine
04-17-2010, 01:48 AM
One friend said Prince fled from a maths class in tears after being tormented by another girl who was jealous that she had been asked to a school dance by a boy she liked.


'She was calling her names and threatening her. Phoebe was probably scared. I know I would be,' said the friend.
http://www.zimbio.com/Phoebe+Prince/articles/A3o1OF8HZes/Teenage+Irish+girl+emigrated+America+hanged

Kris
04-20-2010, 08:19 PM
Hey, sorry haven't been on, been busy over the past few days. I saw a reply to one of my posts in the other thread which, to say the least, infuriated me. I will not name names, but the poster sort of implied that I may have a less than sincere motivation for posting my questions and theories surrounding Phoebe's death, and may be intentionally causing more undue harm to her family. Let me say this CLEARLY.. My intentions are sincere, and I am not intending to cause undue harm to her family. Did it ever occur to anyone that there are many more deaths out there that were ruled suicide with far more evidence as such, but later to be determined as a homicide? And what if that one or few people didn't stand up and question the method of death, or the investigation thereof? So far I have not seen one piece of truly compelling evidence to say with absolute certainty it was a suicide, not even the coroner's report (as stated in the court docs against one of the girls). That does not mean that I am saying with absolute certainty that it was murder, but too many questions and inconsistencies remain. I am an extremely critical thinker, a hopeless cynic, and furthermore, absolutely distrustful of the system (a result of me being bullied) The more I read about this case, the more questions I see unanswered. The few that have been have holes big enough you can drive a truck through. To address the implication that I may be harming the family by raising such questions - ask yourself this: If one of your family member was found dead of an "apparent" suicide, whom you knew would not do so in such a way, would you not want someone to raise the question? Would you rather live with the memory of your loved one accused of being a coward for taking their own life, or thinking that you may have been one of the causes for their suicide, due to lack of a note? That they were willing to leave you behind, or let you find them in such a horrific way? But then again what do I know, I've only known a few people who offed themselves, and a couple others who tried. Furthermore, I have a life, not much of one, but still a life. I have better things to do than waste my time screaming at my computer, yet I still do. Why? Because I care. There are too many senseless deaths, and/ or too many lives ruined because of bullying, and it's not too far of a jump to say that bullying can lead to murder. Oh just one more thing, below is a link for anyone interested on 5 cases that were "ruled" suicide, but proven otherwise. It's an extract from a CBS article with a link to the full article at the bottom of the page. It also mentions the devastation of the families thinking it was a suicide vs the realization that it was murder. Case 2 and case 5 seem to be the most pertinent.

http://www.sshep.com/not_suicide.htm

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Kris
04-20-2010, 08:28 PM
Oh, yeah, for anyone interested, here are 2 links to a case from October of last year in which bullying lead to attempted murder (in other words, the intent to murder or cause death in a failed attempt). I don't know if there is already a thread here on this topic, but I am just posting to show that this (Phoebe's case) would not be an isolated incident. Thankfully this kid survived, but is now scarred for life, in more ways than one.

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/10/teens_douse_15-year-old_michae.php

http://technorati.com/lifestyle/article/michael-brewer-speaks-out/

Paladine
04-20-2010, 08:38 PM
Thanks, Kris. I appreciate your posts. I, too, have many questions. I agree, so far, I've seen no compelling evidence of suicide. Not to say there isn't any...it may just not be released. I, too, have a need to understand. It is a character trait that expresses itself in many ways, in my life. And...here...I don't get it, yet.

And please don't let others get under your skin, here...they may try...;)

You are too valuable a poster to lose, imo.

jjenny
04-20-2010, 08:46 PM
Thanks, Kris. I appreciate your posts. I, too, have many questions. I agree, so far, I've seen no compelling evidence of suicide. Not to say there isn't any...it may just not be released. I, too, have a need to understand. It is a character trait that expresses itself in many ways, in my life. And...here...I don't get it, yet.

And please don't let others get under your skin, here...they may try...;)

You are too valuable a poster to lose, imo.

The compelling evidence of suicide would be that she was found hanging, and ligature mark was found on her neck. Authorities appear to have no concerns whatsoever that it could have been something other than suicide. This happened during the day and presumably somebody would have seen something suspicious-after all there was a witness to can throwing incident. I find it highly unlikely somebody could have pulled something like this off without anyone noticing anything.

Paladine
04-20-2010, 09:23 PM
The compelling evidence of suicide would be that she was found hanging, and ligature mark was found on her neck. Authorities appear to have no concerns whatsoever that it could have been something other than suicide. This happened during the day and presumably somebody would have seen something suspicious-after all there was a witness to can throwing incident. I find it highly unlikely somebody could have pulled something like this off without anyone noticing anything.

jjenny...to you that may be compelling. To me, it's not. Each to their own...:)

Kris
04-20-2010, 09:51 PM
Thanks, Kris. I appreciate your posts. I, too, have many questions. I agree, so far, I've seen no compelling evidence of suicide. Not to say there isn't any...it may just not be released. I, too, have a need to understand. It is a character trait that expresses itself in many ways, in my life. And...here...I don't get it, yet.

And please don't let others get under your skin, here...they may try...

You are too valuable a poster to lose, imo.

Thanks Paladine.

JJ, I don't know if you read my other posts in the second thread about Phoebe, but if you're interested, I believe it starts on page 31 or thereabouts. It further details my analysis regarding the questions I have and the possibilities surrounding her death. I will at some later time reformulate on this thread more concisely. It is rather lengthy and I will try to condense it as much as I can. For now here's the link to the other thread:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101023&page=31

Paladine
04-20-2010, 10:00 PM
Kris...I so look forward to your reformulation...

Please, just keep one thing in mind...remember, we can't point fingers at specific people...

OrdinaryLife
04-20-2010, 10:22 PM
I have to, with *great* (:) ) respect, disagree with the murder thought. If there was anything that showed that this precious child was murdered, it definitely would have shown up during autopsy and through investigation. No person would "allow" themselves to be hanged without a fight. Literally. I cannot believe that Phoebe Prince would have simply let any person take her life without fighting. Never mind the person she was, but that the simple fight to live/survive is a reaction that is done without thought.

I absolutely have no doubt that a murder would have been placed on official certificate of death. That the DA would have pursued a murder investigation. I understand the concern of possibility, but I just don't see it here. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I don't mean that comment to be flip on any level. It is a tragic suicide due to emotional, physical, and verbal abuse to the max of coping with. Abuse that caused a young woman to believe she was nothing. :(

I greatly respect all opinions here. Greatly. I just want to share mine without having any person thinking that I don't regarding theirs.

imvho

Paladine
04-20-2010, 10:36 PM
I have to, with *great* (:) ) respect, disagree with the murder thought. If there was anything that showed that this precious child was murdered, it definitely would have shown up during autopsy and through investigation. No person would "allow" themselves to be hanged without a fight. Literally. I cannot believe that Phoebe Prince would have simply let any person take her life without fighting. Never mind the person she was, but that the simple fight to live/survive is a reaction that is done without thought.

I absolutely have no doubt that a murder would have been placed on official certificate of death. That the DA would have pursued a murder investigation. I understand the concern of possibility, but I just don't see it here. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I don't mean that comment to be flip on any level. It is a tragic suicide due to emotional, physical, and verbal abuse to the max of coping with. Abuse that caused a young woman to believe she was nothing. :(

I greatly respect all opinions here. Greatly. I just want to share mine without having any person thinking that I don't regarding theirs.

imvho
Hey, you :blowkiss: I've thought about the hanging. Boy...as Kris said, how long was the scarf? What if she wasn't hung but strangled with her scarf? And then placed as if she was hung? If there were a couple people, it doesn't take long to knock someone out. I remember, as a kid...STUPID kid...we played a game called 'passout'. We would grab each other a certain way, I won't describe it here (kids might be reading), and it would cause us to go unconscious quickly. And if there were more than 2 people against Phoebe...?

I do not know how the thorough police investigation was...and we'll likely not know too much till trial...

It may be suicide. Very well may be. Piecing it together, and seeing how it fits, will tell alot.

jjenny
04-20-2010, 10:45 PM
Hey, you :blowkiss: I've thought about the hanging. Boy...as Kris said, how long was the scarf? What if she wasn't hung but strangled with her scarf? And then placed as if she was hung? If there were a couple people, it doesn't take long to knock someone out. I remember, as a kid...STUPID kid...we played a game called 'passout'. We would grab each other a certain way, I won't describe it here (kids might be reading), and it would cause us to go unconscious quickly. And if there were more than 2 people against Phoebe...?

I do not know how the thorough police investigation was...and we'll likely not know too much till trial...

It may be suicide. Very well may be. Piecing it together, and seeing how it fits, will tell alot.
It ain't easy to prove a negative. So I don't think you ever will get an answer you are satisfied with.

OrdinaryLife
04-20-2010, 10:55 PM
Hey, you :blowkiss: I've thought about the hanging. Boy...as Kris said, how long was the scarf? What if she wasn't hung but strangled with her scarf? And then placed as if she was hung? If there were a couple people, it doesn't take long to knock someone out. I remember, as a kid...STUPID kid...we played a game called 'passout'. We would grab each other a certain way, I won't describe it here (kids might be reading), and it would cause us to go unconscious quickly. And if there were more than 2 people against Phoebe...?

I do not know how the thorough police investigation was...and we'll likely not know too much till trial...

It may be suicide. Very well may be. Piecing it together, and seeing how it fits, will tell alot.

:blowkiss: Back at you! If she was strangled first, you would see (meaning ME) a different type of pressure damage around the neck vs weight bearing from hanging. Even if she was strangled first and then a faux hanging done to hide it (seems way too complicated for a whim type of murder regarding teens), there would be two different markings on her neck as well as internal damage. Bruising after death would actually show itself. If there was any question as to the death investigation, in my opinion, it would have been documented on reports as well as death certificate. Wasn't her autopsy done outside of South Hadley? I'll have to review to remember, but I thought so. I could be way wrong. Back to way back when pages. Tomorrow. :)

Paladine
04-20-2010, 11:20 PM
It ain't easy to prove a negative. So I don't think you ever will get an answer you are satisfied with.
Cheer up, jjenny :)...that sounds so negative. I feel positive. I think I will be satisfied, someday. I'm not unreasonable...;)

Paladine
04-20-2010, 11:24 PM
ordinary life...you made a good point. The two marks on her neck, you're right...thanks for clearing that scenario up...:blowkiss:

Paladine
04-20-2010, 11:54 PM
It ain't easy to prove a negative. So I don't think you ever will get an answer you are satisfied with.
Cheer up, jjenny :)...that sounds so negative. I feel positive. I think I will be satisfied someday. I'm not unreasonable...;)

Kris
04-21-2010, 09:22 PM
Not much time here but just had to chime in on the scarf. You would have had to read my 3rd post on this to understand that Phoebe was very short, and it wouldn't take an assailant very much to grab her by the scarf that she was already wearing (the reports were she wore it that day to school) Then tighten and pull up. The assailant would have to be behind her and it would be very difficult for her to fight back, especially if the assailant were taller and stronger...ehem... Also the ligature marks would not be as pronounced as say a telephone chord, rope, or clothesline. A scarf is much thicker and would be much harder to pinpoint a precise angle if 2 similar angles were used (one to choke, the other to hang) Also as I stated in earlier posts, Phoebe may not have actually been dead when hung by her scarf. As Paladine pointed out the "choking game" and as I learned in the USMC, it only takes seconds to "blood choke" someone. They simply pass out for up to several minutes, and may appear as if they were dead. In a panic, if death was not the intention, but rather intimidation,, the assailant may have thought she was dead, and quickly thought to hang her as if it were a suicide. In which case, bruising and ligature marks would be consistent with a suicidal hanging. Oh, and this would not be the first time something like this happened. Also as far as the coroner (and LE), I find it to be either suspicious or negligent to rule such a case as a definitive suicide, especially when not only physical threats, but actual acts of physical violence occurred just 2 hours before her death. Another point about the coroner, I thought I read somewhere that he was only and "acting" pathologist and practiced some other form of medicine. Perhaps someone here saw the same thing? Either way, he's definitely not a Dr G. or Henry Lee (just saying).

Paladine
04-21-2010, 10:07 PM
Not much time here but just had to chime in on the scarf. You would have had to read my 3rd post on this to understand that Phoebe was very short, and it wouldn't take an assailant very much to grab her by the scarf that she was already wearing (the reports were she wore it that day to school) Then tighten and pull up. The assailant would have to be behind her and it would be very difficult for her to fight back, especially if the assailant were taller and stronger...ehem... Also the ligature marks would not be as pronounced as say a telephone chord, rope, or clothesline. A scarf is much thicker and would be much harder to pinpoint a precise angle if 2 similar angles were used (one to choke, the other to hang) Also as I stated in earlier posts, Phoebe may not have actually been dead when hung by her scarf. As Paladine pointed out the "choking game" and as I learned in the USMC, it only takes seconds to "blood choke" someone. They simply pass out for up to several minutes, and may appear as if they were dead. In a panic, if death was not the intention, but rather intimidation,, the assailant may have thought she was dead, and quickly thought to hang her as if it were a suicide. In which case, bruising and ligature marks would be consistent with a suicidal hanging. Oh, and this would not be the first time something like this happened. Also as far as the coroner (and LE), I find it to be either suspicious or negligent to rule such a case as a definitive suicide, especially when not only physical threats, but actual acts of physical violence occurred just 2 hours before her death. Another point about the coroner, I thought I read somewhere that he was only and "acting" pathologist and practiced some other form of medicine. Perhaps someone here saw the same thing? Either way, he's definitely not a Dr G. or Henry Lee (just saying).
Yes...he was an specialist in osteopathy.

The coroner was Dr. Andrew W. Sexton. He's mentioned in this link. Time of death is estimated between 2:48 and 4:15. Why such a large window if she was found so soon? Anyone have thoughts on that? It also states she was threatened that day with "physical abuse"...


A SUBSEQUENT POST MORTEM VIEW OF HER BODY, BY THE MEDICAL EXAMINER.; DR.. ANDREW W. SEXTON, WAS CONDUCTED ON JANUARY 15TH• DR. SEXTON RULED THE CAUSE OF PHOEBE PRINCE'S DEATH WAS ASPHYXIA DUE TO HANGING AND THE MANNER OF HER DEATH WAS SUICIDE .. INVESTIGATORS HAVE SINCE ESTIMATED HER TIME OF DEATH TO BE BETWEEN 2:48 P.M. AND 4:30 P.M. ON JANUARY

FltOM INFORMATION KNOWN TO INVESTIGATORS THUS F~ IT APPEARS THAT PHOEBE'S DEATH ON JANUARY 14m FOLLOWED A TORTUOUS DAY FOR HER, IN WIDeR SHE WAS' StJBJECTED TO VERBAL HARASSMENT AND THREATENED PHYSICAL ABUSE.
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:KC3N7F3Mu40J:www.scribd.com/doc/29114833/Attorney-Elizabeth-Scheibel-s-statement-on-Prince-death+elizabeth+scheibel+statement+full&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Here's more on Sexton from another case that states his specialty...

An initial death certificate did not list a cause, pending further investigation. The final certificate, which came from the Holyoke office of the district medical examiner, was signed on Aug. 28 by Andrew W. Sexton, a doctor of osteopathy.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/medical_examiner_confirms_ware.html

Osteopathy?

Osteopathy is a form of drug-free non-invasive manual medicine that focuses on total body health by treating and strengthening the musculoskeletal framework, which includes the joints, muscles and spine. Its aim is to positively affect the body's nervous, circulatory and lymphatic systems.

This therapy is a unique holistic (whole body) approach to health care. Osteopaths do not simply concentrate on treating the problem area, but use manual techniques to balance all the systems of the body, to provide overall good health and wellbeing.

Dr. Andrew Taylor Still established the practice of Osteopathy in the late 1800s in the United States of America, with the aim of using manual 'hands on' techniques to improve circulation and correct altered biomechanics, without the use of drugs.

Osteopathy established itself in Australia in the early 1940s, and there are currently over 1100 Osteopaths practicing across the country.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/70381.php

And then I found this...is this how osteopaths get to be medical examiners?


General Information: The mission of the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners is to protect the public by providing the means to assess competencies for osteopathic medicine and related health care professions.

Candidates: Welcome to the gateway for information concerning osteopathic medical licensure, bio-medical and clinical self-assessment and clinical skills performance. The NBOME has created this web portal to provide all interested a resource location to understand and explore osteopathic medical assessment. Candidates should also refer to the Bulletin of Information which sets forth NBOME’s policies, rules and procedures and obligations binding upon all Candidates.

SCORE RELEASE INFORMATION
The following COMLEX-USA examination scores have been mailed and are available online:
* Level 1 examinations taken on or before January 19, 2010.

* Level 2-CE examinations taken on or before February 24, 2010.
* Level 2-PE examinations taken on or before February 25, 2010.
* Level 3 examinations taken on or before March 13, 2010.

The COMLEX Level 1, Level 2 CE, and Level 3 examinations report both three-digit and two-digit standard scores. The minimal passing 3-digit standard score for Level 1 and Level 2 (CE) is 400, for Level 3 is 350. The two-digit standard score is directly converted from a three-digit score such that 75 is designated as the minimum two-digit passing score. A two-digit score is NOT a percentile score or the percentage of items answered correctly.
http://www.nbome.org/candidates.asp

jjenny
04-21-2010, 10:13 PM
Doctor of osteopathy? And? What exactly is your point?
To get this degree, they get very similar training to an MD. Four years of school, then residency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States

Paladine
04-21-2010, 10:20 PM
Googling for any info on Sexton...

Dr. Andrew W. Sexton discloses financial relationship with commercial entity...if you notice the listing, many other Dr.'s disclose they have no financial relationships...and notice he has a D.O. after his name..not a even a PHD like many of the other medical examiners listed...

Andrew W. Sexton, DO - G62Endo Pharmaceuticals (Discussion of Commercial Products
or Services)
http://www.aafs.org/pdf/2009ProceedingsDenver.pdf

Paladine
04-21-2010, 10:29 PM
Doctor of osteopathy? And? What exactly is your point?
To get this degree, they get very similar training to an MD. Four years of school, then residency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States
I think my post speaks for itself, jjenny. And I'm not going to fight or debate or argue. You'll have to look elsewhere for that...:)

OrdinaryLife
04-21-2010, 10:41 PM
My M.D. is also a D.O. They do have to go through the same training as any M.D. does. They choose to specialize after residency. They do prescribe medications (I got them, ugh.), but also work with the being of the person as well. To receive an M.E. certificate does mean testing, etc. It does not mean the this doctor was lessor than being a D.O. Unless there has been issues in the past with this doctor, and with such a huge investigation that has followed, I think the job was followed through accordingly.

Time frame of death can only be narrowed down by body temp, info from when a person was last seen, and the temps of surrounding area when body is found. I don't see, in my opinion, anything weird about timing of death.

imvho

Paladine
04-21-2010, 10:43 PM
Well, ordinary life...if a DO is as good as a PHD...why get a PHD?

OrdinaryLife
04-21-2010, 10:57 PM
Well, ordinary life...if a DO is as good as a PHD...why get a PHD?

A Phd is a choice that some make. Truth. I have friends who are Phd's. Would they make a good M.E.? No. A Phd is just another extra (not taking away from the *much* work it takes to get one!), but it does not mean that they are any more experienced in the field. A title does not make a person better at what they do. But, it looks way good beside the name. :)

Edit to add that any person that has put in the time, work, and energy to become what they chose is a good thing. Don't let the initials place any person in the lessor catagory of medicine. It is a specialty of choice. Doesn't mean they cannot do the job.

jjenny
04-21-2010, 11:28 PM
Well, ordinary life...if a DO is as good as a PHD...why get a PHD?

Someone with a PhD (and no MD or DO) can not practice medicine.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 11:31 PM
A Phd is a choice that some make. Truth. I have friends who are Phd's. Would they make a good M.E.? No. A Phd is just another extra (not taking away from the *much* work it takes to get one!), but it does not mean that they are any more experienced in the field. A title does not make a person better at what they do. But, it looks way good beside the name. :)

Edit to add that any person that has put in the time, work, and energy to become what they chose is a good thing. Don't let the initials place any person in the lessor category of medicine. It is a specialty of choice. Doesn't mean they cannot do the job.

Thanks for your viewpoint, presented in a reasoned way...:) I'd just like to see more about his credentials and experience...

See, with me...I like to discover a case. I like to take each piece of info and see where it leads next. When I post a post, sometimes it's to present an opinion....and when it is you'll know. I say so. But most times it's to explore information and ideas. THAT'S the dynamic I enjoy. :) It doesn't mean I am invested in, or give equal weight, or extra merit, to any one post. Many times I post to share info I'm learning...and to see if others can add to the info or lead me another way. Both have happened.

I'm not into debate. If I want a spirited debate I'll talk to my Hubby about some reno's I want to do or my teen aged Daughter about her curfew. ;)

I want to share ideas. Not make points. Or 'win'. AND...I do love it when you present yours in such a classy, non-confrontational informative way, Thanks, bud...:)

jjenny
04-21-2010, 11:32 PM
Googling for any info on Sexton...

Dr. Andrew W. Sexton discloses financial relationship with commercial entity...if you notice the listing, many other Dr.'s disclose they have no financial relationships...and notice he has a D.O. after his name..not a even a PHD like many of the other medical examiners listed...

http://www.aafs.org/pdf/2009ProceedingsDenver.pdf

Not even a PhD? Really? Do you think PhDs are given out like hotcakes?
Again, PhDs (unless they also have an MD or DO) can not practice medicine. PhDs do research (generally). It's a different degree alltogether.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 11:37 PM
Someone with a PhD (and no MD or DO) can not practice medicine.

I posted a list a couple posts ago with names of the medical examiners, they had PHD's beside their names...now, wouldn't they need to also be a medical doctor to be a medical examiner? Boy..that's a mouthful! lol...I don't have a D.O. OR a PHD, btw...;)

Paladine
04-22-2010, 01:06 AM
Okay...this link says there are coroners, medical examiners and forensic pathologists.
Forensic pathology is a branch of pathology concerned with determining the cause of death by examination of a corpse. The autopsy is performed by the pathologist at the request of a coroner or medical examiner usually during the investigation of criminal law cases and civil law cases in some jurisdictions. Forensic pathologists are also frequently asked to confirm the identity of a corpse.

In the United States, a coroner is typically an elected public official in a particular geographic jurisdiction who investigates and certifies deaths. The vast majority of coroners lack a Doctor of Medicine degree and the amount of medical training that they have received is highly variable, depending on their profession (e.g. law enforcement, judges, funeral directors, firefighters, nurses).

In contrast, a medical examiner is typically a physician who holds the degree of Doctor of Medicine. Ideally, a medical examiner has completed both a pathology residency and a fellowship in forensic pathology. In some jurisdictions, a medical examiner must be both a doctor and a lawyer, with additional training in forensic pathology.
A forensic pathologist is a different occupation with different requirements for training...

In the United States of America, forensic pathologists typically complete at least one year of additional training (a fellowship) after completing an anatomical pathology residency and having passed the "board" examination administered by The American Board of Pathology ("board-certified"). Becoming an anatomical pathologist in the United States requires completing a three to five year residency in anatomical pathology, which is something one does on completing medical school. Anatomic pathology (as it is called) by itself is a three-year residency. Most US pathologists complete a combined residency in both anatomic and clinical pathology, which requires a total of four years.

In the US, all told, the education after high school is typically 13 years in duration (4 years undergraduate training + 4 years medical school + 4 years residency (in anatomic and clinical pathology) + 1 year forensic pathology fellowship). Generally, the biggest hurdle is gaining admission to medical school, although the failure rate for anatomic and forensic pathology board examinations (in the U.S.) is approximately 30-40 and 40-50 percent, respectively.
I've seen nothing yet saying Dr. Sexton is a forensic pathologist...just a medical examiner...still looking...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_pathology#Coroners_and_medical_examiner_i n_the_US

Paladine
04-22-2010, 01:24 AM
Here's a job listing dated March/2010 for a medical examiner to perform autopsy's in Boston and at the Holyoke office, Dr. Sexton is in Holyoke. They only require a person be a physician specialist to be a medical examiner. Not a forensic pathologist...

POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT
Medical Examiner
(Physician Specialist)
Agency Name:
Commonwealth of Massachusetts Office Of The Chief Medical Examiner Albany StreetBoston, MA 02118
Official Title:
Physician Specialist
Functional Title:
Medical Examiner
Occupational Group:
Medical & Dental Practice
Position Type:
Non-Civil Service
Full-Time or Part-Time:
Full-Time
Salary Range:
$129,332.06 to $210,551.38 Annually
Bargaining Unit:
07
Shift:
Day
Confidential:
No
Number Of Vacancies:
1
Facility Location:
Boston Office at 720 Albany Street; Worcester Office at Mass Medical Center; Holyoke Office at Providence Hospital
Application Deadline:
April 1, 2010
Apply Online:
Yes
Posting ID:
J19950
This position is funded from the Commonwealth's annual operating budget.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DUTIES:
Performing scene investigations, examination of physical evidence, performance of external examination on bodies, performance of autopsies, performance of cremation views, preparation of reports, courtroom testimony, and working closely with a variety of diverse groups including law enforcement personnel, district attorneys, defense counsel, families of decedents and funeral directors. Excellent communication skills, both verbal and written, are essential to job functions. Work must be performed within the norms of accepted medical practice in forensic pathology. Job duties are usually performed independently but are subject to review by the Chief Medical Examiner. At the discretion of the Chief Medical Examiner, the Medical Examiner may be assigned additional duties. The Medical Examiner will always adhere to the highest ethical standards and serve as a role model for all other OCME employees.

PRINCIPAL ACCOUNTABILITIES:
- Performs autopsies in order to determine the cause and manner of death.

Paladine
04-22-2010, 02:02 AM
This is an older piece from 2004. But it is stunning. WAY worth the read, I encourage all to have a gander. It details the many problems with the Boston medical examiners office...I will look for something more recent but this does not make me feel any better.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/373548/taking_charge_as_medical_examiner/index.html

Paladine
04-22-2010, 02:14 AM
2007: Still having problems...WAY more at link...

"Autopsies overwhelm medical examiner staff
Body bags, tags in short supply"

Lawmakers on Beacon Hill said that the more recent problems stem from years of underfunding and that they hoped to find more money this year.

Flomenbaum, formerly the second-ranked forensic pathologist in the New York City medical examiner's office, declined to comment.

Almost two years ago, he took over what was widely regarded as one of the worst state medical examiner's offices in the country. The office had failed in some of its duties because of underfunding, neglect, and shrinking staff. In 2003, the office was rocked by allegations that a pathologist had sent the wrong set of eyeballs for testing to determine whether an infant had died from shaken baby syndrome. The office also faced allegations that it misidentified a fire victim's body, which was then cremated.

When he took over, Flomenbaum vowed that the office would perform more autopsies and hire more staff.

The office, which has about 65 employees, has increased the number of autopsies from 2,694 in 2005 to 3,552 last year, according to Marcia S. Izzi , his chief administrative officer.

The volume of autopsies has risen because the medical examiner's office, under Flomenbaum's orders, has been more aggressive in requiring that state pathologists review suspicious or unattended deaths. The office now has 11 pathologists, up from five when Flomenbaum took office.

But a former technician, Brian Gonsalves , said yesterday that the increased workload has strained the operation. He said he worked at the office about a year before leaving last October because of low pay and limited career opportunities, but acknowledged that on the day he gave notice he had a confrontation with a human resources official.

Gonsalves, 24, told the Globe that on several occasions the office ran out of basic supplies, including body bags and toe tags. The technicians, who assist the pathologists, were told to cut toe tags from manila envelopes and punch holes in them, he said.

He said that when the autopsies increased, waste tissue inadvertently overwhelmed the plumbing system. "The drain system backed up and for two days we had to perform autopsies in 2 inches of bloody water on the floor," he said.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/03/15/autopsies_overwhelm_medical_examiner_staff/

Paladine
04-22-2010, 02:23 AM
More...2009...

The Boston medical examiner's office sent the wrong bodies to funeral homes and had a body cremated before police could determine whether a murder had taken place.

A report by the National Academy of Sciences, presented to Congress this spring, found pervasive deficiencies nationwide. It recommends modernizing the medical examiner's office by establishing performance standards and quality-control measures and testing the scientific validity of forensic methods. It also calls for creating a national watchdog agency that could set education standards, require certification of facilities, and develop and implement new technologies.

A group of medical examiners themselves recommended minimum national standards, calling for such changes as requiring that autopsies be conducted by those who have been trained in anatomic and forensic pathology.
http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_content.php?id=1105624&lang=eng_news&cate_img=44.jpg&cate_rss=news_Perspective

Paladine
04-22-2010, 02:28 AM
2008...

"Troubled Medical Examiner's Office Attempts Overhaul
Team 5 Investigates Reveals Lingering Problems, Incomplete Death Certificates

POSTED: 2:53 pm EDT May 21, 2008
UPDATED: 8:21 am EDT May 22, 2008"


Last April, the wrong body was buried. In June, a botched autopsy compromised a murder case. In August, the chief medical examiner, Mark Flomenbaum, was fired. In December, Team 5 Investigates broke the story that the wrong body was taken from a hospital.

After an independent report released last summer recommended a top to bottom overhaul, a team of public safety officials was assigned to the task. Team 5 Investigates went inside the medical examiner's office and revealed there are still flaws in the system.

Public safety officials acknowledged to Team 5 that a year ago, the medical examiner's office was dysfunctional. There were too many bodies, too few staff, bad morale and unsanitary conditions. They said most of the problems have been eliminated.

But an inside source told Team 5 Investigates that as recently as this winter, the office was still rife with problems. Exclusive pictures released to Team 5 illustrate a backlog of bodies. At times, there were over 100 corpses spilling out into the main hallway.

"They're tossed on a gurney. It's just not right," said an insider who did not want to be named. "I understand the person is dead. But you still have to have respect for them."


"Thirty-seven bodies were in the main cooler, a third less than the average backlogs that existed when the former chief medical examiner was in charge. According to public safety officials, his team was scheduling too many unnecessary autopsies. But the insider told Team 5 that just three months ago, technicians were sometimes doing the work of doctors.

"The technician cuts when they're not supposed to cut. Doctors have court cases and can't finish the work. A lot of the cuts are not done right," said the insider.
"The role of the technician did expand to more than what our medical leadership thought appropriate, and that has changed," said Grossman.

But Team 5 Investigates learned there are still major flaws at the medical examiner's office, including death certificates that take months, even years to be mailed to families

When Team 5 asked Nields if the poor reputation of the office was hindering the hiring of new talent, he told Team 5 "It certainly doesn't help."
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/16352799/detail.html

Paladine
04-22-2010, 02:34 AM
"Mistakes pile up for MA medical examiner's office"

March 19, 2009 — 12:09pm ET | By Dan Bowman


The Massachusetts state medical examiner's office in Boston has had its fair share of problems over the past few years. Most recently, a box of human bones was discovered by a worker cleaning out a cooler last month, which led to the dismissal of the office's forensic anthropologist, Ann Marie Mires. The bones were left behind after the rest of the body was shipped to a funeral home for burial in July 2007. A similar incident occurred nearly two years ago, when bones from a body released for burial were found in Mires's office.

Mires claims that the mistakes were "a failure in the system" that's "still broken," and may have a case considering that nearly two years ago, Governor Deval Patrick fired chief medical examiner Dr. Mark Flomenbaum when his staff "temporarily misplaced a body." The medical examiner's office also admitted, last month, to allowing the body of a woman to be cremated before it was determined if her death was a homicide, and to releasing the wrong body to a funeral home when his remains were set to be cremated.
Read more: http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/mistakes-pile-ma-medical-examiners-office/2009-03-19#ixzz0loAapdBP

Paladine
04-22-2010, 02:40 AM
Ex-employee speaks out...2009...

But when contacted by the Globe, Mires, who has helped identify the remains of missing children like Molly Bish and the alleged victims of fugitive gangster James "Whitey" Bulger, said she was not to blame for the mix-up with the bones and is being wrongly blamed for chronic problems at the beleaguered medical examiner's office. She has filed a grievance challenging her dismissal.

"It's not my fault, but a failure in the system," said Mires, who was hired by the medical examiner's office in 1996 and previously served as a consultant for 11 years. "They still haven't been able to fix the place. It's still broken, and this is just the tip of the iceberg."
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/03/19/blunders_persist_at_office_of_state_medical_examin er/?page=1

Paladine
04-22-2010, 03:14 AM
I know this is 2001 but I find it so disturbing, I thought I'd share...

"Autopsies done without license"
By Sean P. Murphy, Globe Staff, 9/11/2001


Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, which sponsored his fellowship, never gave Blaise permission to perform autopsies there, but the medical examiner's office allowed him to do so, according to staff members who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution

Complaints about Blaise's lack of a license were made to Chief Medical Examiner Richard Evans, but Evans declined to comment on the matter.


''We all knew it was a problem,'' said one staff member. ''But we were told we'd have to give it some more time.''


Blaise, a medical school graduate, worked in a medical examiner's office in Florida before coming to Massachusetts, according to state officials. He was not licensed in Florida, the officials said.


Generally, a doctor seeking a license in Massachusetts need only have the medical board in the state where he or she previously practiced vouch for the doctor's competence and character.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Autopsies_done_without_license%252b.shtml

Paladine
04-22-2010, 03:33 AM
Kris...your question started it, you got me on a roll...lol...it's all YOUR fault! ;)

Tag...you're it...;) I'm outta here for tonight...

Kris
04-22-2010, 07:31 AM
WOW, Thanks Paladine!!! I only had a few moments before work to read your posts, and will review them and the links further later. You really outdid yourself, kudos!! Oh, I don't mean to get you on another roll, but was wondering (since you appear to be so good at it) if you could find statistics on the number of homicides that were initially ruled suicide? If not, that's OK, I'll keep looking. And I was wondering if you looked at the link I posted with the 5 cases of suicide later ruled homicide? Gotta go, but will try to post again later.

Paladine
04-22-2010, 09:23 AM
Kris...thanks, it took on a life of its own. ;) But it tells me the State Medical Examiner is not above reproach and I'm not the first person to question their competency.

I will have a peek around for statistics on homicides initially ruled suicides a little later...If anyone reading this finds the statistics before I post, please post...:)

Dr. Phail
04-22-2010, 09:24 AM
Pala quoted: "Molly Bish said she was not to blame for the mix-up with the bones."


Man, I've messed up at some jobs....stuck a pizza to a wall, accidentally locked myself in a freezer but I ain't never mixed up no bones.

Never even been accused of mixing up bones. Never had to tell anyone that I didn't mix up no bones.


Man.....I feel for this Molly girl.


Sucky day at work man. :(

Paladine
04-22-2010, 09:49 AM
Pala quoted: "Molly Bish said she was not to blame for the mix-up with the bones."


Man, I've messed up at some jobs....stuck a pizza to a wall, accidentally locked myself in a freezer but I ain't never mixed up no bones.

Never even been accused of mixing up bones. Never had to tell anyone that I didn't mix up no bones.


Man.....I feel for this Molly girl.


Sucky day at work man. :(

THIS post is spectacular, imo! :) SO FUNNY...and TRUE!

Paladine
04-22-2010, 09:51 AM
And it seems to me, that woman is being blamed, scapegoated...it seems to me, there are systemic problems with the medical examiners office as there are with the school...they've been trying to clean it up for almost 10 yrs, according to links. It's STILL having scandals in 2009.

Paladine
04-22-2010, 10:16 AM
Boy...just googling and came across this...yes, it's from '92...but...wow...couldn't he have found a better way to die?

A man whose remains were found chained to a tree in a wooded area in Needham last Wednesday apparently committed suicide, authorities said yesterday.


Authorities, who initially were investigating the death as a homicide, determined that the body had not suffered any blows such as those from a blunt instrument or a knife. In addition, investigators learned of Glawson's homelessness and his previous attempts at suicide, officials said.http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8765866.html

Paladine
04-22-2010, 10:26 AM
Another questionable case in MASS...given, this is a different DA. Same State, though...this lawyer seems shocked, this was about 2 weeks ago...
"Boston District Attorney Declares Shooting Death Amid Gunfight Was Suicide, Not Homicide"

There comes a time when any Boston criminal defense attorney is knocked almost speechless.

Almost.

Fortunately, this one can still write when that happens. It would appear that the law enforcement entities have come together and resolved several of the questions posed in yesterday’s Boston Criminal Lawyer Blog. The solution, though, reminds me of a famous escape scene from the movie “Blazing Saddles”, when the hero of the story, a black sheriff, is out-gunned and he puts his own gun to his head and says, “Make one move and the (“N-word”) get’s it!”

On the other hand...anything is possible.

I am referring to the findings announced yesterday by the Suffolk County District Attorney that 19-year old, apparently Cape Veridan, Manuel D. (hereinafter, the “Deceased”) shot himself in the head, killing himself, because police officers wanted to talk to him.


Let me state at the onset that I was not there at the scene and I represent nobody in the matter. I do have a quarter-century of experience in the criminal justice system, though, which includes time spent on both sides of the aisle. I have also served as such, on both sides, in both the state of New York and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

I gotta admit...this kinda troubles me and I think makes the admonition I made at the end of yesterday’s blog even more dire.

According to District Attorney Daniel F. Conley, the Deceased put his own gun to his head and fired amid the gunfight with police. Police officials state that they hope this finding will settle anxiety among the area’s Cape Verdean community over the use of deadly force.

The DA explained that a preliminary investigation shows that the Deceased had exchanged gunfire with officers and a state trooper assigned to the Youth Violence Strike Force, and that at one point he “reloaded his weapon, put the gun to his head, and shot himself.”


“What questions does it raise?”

Well, some of the immediate ones include, “If he’d been shot in his hand, hip and chest, how was he able to, amid gunfire, reload, decide to shoot himself (never mind “why”) and perform the deed in so short a time?”, “Why did the police ‘find’ the Deceased’s gun and why did they pick it up instead of letting a crime scene unit do so?”, “Whose fingerprints, if any, were found on the gun?”, and, of course, “Wouldn’t this cause of death be fairly obvious to the medical examiner?”

And this DA Conley has great credentials...hmm....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_F._Conley
http://www.bostoncriminallawyerblog.com/2010/04/boston_district_attorney_decla.html

Paladine
04-22-2010, 10:31 AM
this is from 1990..but again, stunning and in MASS...how is THIS a suicide?

Norfolk County's medical examiner has concluded that well-known Weymouth restaurateur John Pica Sr. took his own life, and was not murdered as first suspected.

Pica, 69, the owner of the Venetian Restaurant on Broad Street, was found early April 25 in the restaurant parking lot next to his black Cadillac. He had been shot twice in the stomach and once behind the ear.
Weymouth police recovered a small-caliber gun near Pica's body and initially pursued a murder investigation. But this week, Medical Examiner Peter J. Leahy ruled the case a suicide.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-8183418.html

Paladine
04-22-2010, 10:46 AM
Does anyone remember Auturo Gatti? He was a Canadian boxer. He was found hung in his hotel room by a belt or purse, can't recall...it was suspected a homicide but was ruled a suicide. Because he was Canadian, the Quebec coroners office requested all autopsy files from Brazil. Phoebe wasn't an American, her Dad is still in Ireland, could HE and IRELAND request her autopsy records for review?

"Quebec Coroner seeking Gatti documents"


TORONTO — The coroner’s office in Quebec wants Brazilian authorities to share their files from boxer Arturo Gatti’s initial autopsy and the police investigation into his death.


Genevieve Guilbault, a spokeswoman for the coroner’s office, said Monday that the office had asked Canada’s federal government to get involved and request documents from the first autopsy and other files describing the scene where Gatti was found.

Gatti’s death in Brazil on July 11 was ruled a suicide last week, after Brazilian police initially said the Canadian boxer and two-time world champion had been slain and that his wife, Amanda Rodrigues, was the prime suspect. http://blog.taragana.com/sports/2009/08/04/office-of-quebec-coroner-seeking-gattis-brazilian-autopsy-and-police-files-17367/

daisy7
04-22-2010, 10:54 AM
Friendly reminder to everyone that you can attack the post, NOT the poster. Please treat all posters nicely -- everyone is entitled to their opinions, whether or not they agree with yours. If you feel a post violates TOS, click the alert (little red triangle). DO NOT quote the post.

raeann
04-22-2010, 10:56 AM
Pala quoted: "Molly Bish said she was not to blame for the mix-up with the bones."


Man, I've messed up at some jobs....stuck a pizza to a wall, accidentally locked myself in a freezer but I ain't never mixed up no bones.

Never even been accused of mixing up bones. Never had to tell anyone that I didn't mix up no bones.


Man.....I feel for this Molly girl.


Sucky day at work man. :(


I will have to go back and look at the link, but the reporter in this case must be as bad at mixing up things as the ME office, because MOLLY BISH is a murder victim....huge thread on here about her somewhere. Unless by coincidence there is an employee by the exact same name, something is messed up with their article.

jmoo

Paladine
04-22-2010, 10:59 AM
I will have to go back and look at the link, but the reporter in this case must be as bad at mixing up things as the ME office, because MOLLY BISH is a murder victim....huge thread on here about her somewhere. Unless by coincidence there is an employee by the exact same name, something is messed up with their article.

jmoo
Exactly...they mixed the name...the correct one is in the link I posted. That's why I said "woman" in my response to Dr. Phails post...I couldn't remember her name...l should have fixed that or pointed it out...my error.

Paladine
04-22-2010, 11:03 AM
Kris...I haven't looked at your link detailing suicides later ruled homicides. I missed it. I'll look back...

Paladine
04-22-2010, 01:34 PM
EJ and CF2 made some comments about the questioning....so the local cop was looking at suicidal signs and the fed was looking for info on harassment, stalking, stat rape?

CF2

Let me bring something to this discussion based on direct communication with a parent who sat in on a police interview of their kid. I was told the SHPD detective did most of the questioning while the State Police investigator was at the computer making many notes. It was estimated approximately 70% of the questions were related to Phoebe’s behaviors and state of mind.
I was convinced at that point that the investigation was being conducted in a way to prove Phoebe had “emotional problems” or whatever you want to call it, in order to sweep this under the rug. This made me really left with no confidence there would ever be charges filed.
EJ...
The questioning that CF described was handled by a local cop and federal investigator together. While the local cop kept pushing the “what was Phoebe’s state of mind” line and asking about alleged suicide attempts, the Fed was only interested in the actual crimes that ended up in the charges. So the good/bad cop thing made sense to me at the time which I told the parent involved and CF and I have discussed many times. We were on opposite sides of that one, as I kept saying “Just wait,” and he thought it was going away. In retrospect I think they were checking to see how those themes played so they’d know how they’d play in getting indictments.
ETA: In another comment, EJ clarifys his statement...by 'fed' he meant M.S.P....Mass. State Police
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/phoebe-princes-writings-the-media-finally-pays-attention/#comments

Kris
04-22-2010, 09:18 PM
Hey Paladine, I was just going back through your earlier posts and caught this"


A SUBSEQUENT POST MORTEM VIEW OF HER BODY, BY THE MEDICAL EXAMINER.; DR.. ANDREW W. SEXTON, WAS CONDUCTED ON JANUARY 15TH• DR. SEXTON RULED THE CAUSE OF PHOEBE PRINCE'S DEATH WAS ASPHYXIA DUE TO HANGING AND THE MANNER OF HER DEATH WAS SUICIDE .. INVESTIGATORS HAVE SINCE ESTIMATED HER TIME OF DEATH TO BE BETWEEN 2:48 P.M. AND 4:30 P.M. ON JANUARY

Well, no duh!! They simply stated the time between her last text and the time she was discovered. How incompetent are these people? Thanks again Paladine for doing all that research. It's really eye opening how negligent the system is there. If it were just one article from many years ago, then their incompetence would be arguably intermittent. However with articles as near back as 2009, one could say it's chronic. As far as Phoebe's death it sounds like perhaps someone had suggested suicide to the coroner and he followed suit, or maybe even had one of the technicians perform the autopsy, then signed off on it. Just another possibility, albeit after reading those articles, a very strong possibility. It could have happened as casually as this:

Coroner: "What do we have here?"
LE or Tech: "15 year old female, apparent suicide by hanging". (Le or tech possibly gives some other background info, like bullying involved)
Coroner: "Oh, OK, well I'll look at her tomorrow."

The coroner then see's the ligature marks, possibly remembers the other headlines of the 13 year old who hung herself due to bullying (or other cases of suicide involving bullying that made the news), and simply says "yep, suicide"

Again, just saying, a very likely scenario.

Paladine
04-22-2010, 09:31 PM
Hey Paladine, I was just going back through your earlier posts and caught this"



Well, no duh!! They simply stated the time between her last text and the time she was discovered. How incompetent are these people? Thanks again Paladine for doing all that research. It's really eye opening how negligent the system is there. If it were just one article from many years ago, then their incompetence would be arguably intermittent. However with articles as near back as 2009, one could say it's chronic. As far as Phoebe's death it sounds like perhaps someone had suggested suicide to the coroner and he followed suit, or maybe even had one of the technicians perform the autopsy, then signed off on it. Just another possibility, albeit after reading those articles, a very strong possibility. It could have happened as casually as this:

Coroner: "What do we have here?"
LE or Tech: "15 year old female, apparent suicide by hanging". (Le or tech possibly gives some other background info, like bullying involved)
Coroner: "Oh, OK, well I'll look at her tomorrow."

The coroner then see's the ligature marks, possibly remembers the other headlines of the 13 year old who hung herself due to bullying (or other cases of suicide involving bullying that made the news), and simply says "yep, suicide"

Again, just saying, a very likely scenario.
I can see your scenario...and I say it not to disrespect anybody but to say what I honestly think.

The articles help me get a FEEL for the area. Find out what locals think of their system. Those articles weren't written by me...they were written by local media. I simply post them and learn from them. Each reader can decide the weight they wish to give them...or not.

OrdinaryLife
04-22-2010, 10:25 PM
Dr. Andrew Sexton is the Medical Examiner in Holyoke, MA. Unless they transferred Phoebe Prince's body to Boston, her autopsy would have been done there. I have found nothing (Googled myself silly, but I may have missed something) that it was done in Boston. Yes, there have been many issues regarding the Examiner's office. Disturbing to say the least. However, I can't lump one autopsy into the mess that they have in Boston to this area of the State. Holyoke is around 90 minutes away from the city. Nestled very near the Berkshires.

The timing of death, unless someone professional was there to witness and verify it to the moment of death, is the best that can be guessed at according to what the circumstances, body temp, and the last contact the she had that afternoon.

We can disagree about the "what if's", but I'm not so sure about incompetence. I just do not see it.

imvho

Paladine
04-22-2010, 10:36 PM
Dr. Andrew Sexton is the Medical Examiner in Holyoke, MA. Unless they transferred Phoebe Prince's body to Boston, her autopsy would have been done there. I have found nothing (Googled myself silly, but I may have missed something) that it was done in Boston. Yes, there have been many issues regarding the Examiner's office. Disturbing to say the least. However, I can't lump one autopsy into the mess that they have in Boston to this area of the State. Holyoke is around 90 minutes away from the city. Nestled very near the Berkshires.

The timing of death, unless someone professional was there to witness and verify it to the moment of death, is the best that can be guessed at according to what the circumstances, body temp, and the last contact the she had that afternoon.

We can disagree about the "what if's", but I'm not so sure about incompetence. I just do not see it.

imvho
The State Medical Examiner has different offices in different towns, including Boston and Holyoke. They operate under the same authority and leadership and, one would think, would have the same policy. A point to consider.

IMO

OrdinaryLife
04-22-2010, 10:40 PM
The State Medical Examiner has different offices in different towns, including Boston and Holyoke. They operate under the same authority and leadership and, one would think, would have the same policy. A point to consider.

They may have the same policy, but it is the people that make or break it. Boston is a perfect example of broken. I know hospitals that are of a group partnership. Several are horrible while the remaining others make it happen in care. I don't think a book should be judged by it's cover....

(Hi! :) )

Paladine
04-22-2010, 10:44 PM
They may have the same policy, but it is the people that make or break it. Boston is a perfect example of broken. I know hospitals that are of a group partnership. Several are horrible while the remaining others make it happen in care. I don't think a book should be judged by it's cover....

(Hi! :) )

Hey...:)

I'm tired...lol.

Everyone can take it, or leave it, for what they wish but it doesn't make me feel all fuzzy inside. ;)

OrdinaryLife
04-22-2010, 10:47 PM
Hey...:)

I'm tired...lol.

Everyone can take it, or leave it, for what they wish but it doesn't make me feel all fuzzy inside. ;)

I get that and hold much respect for it. Get some ~sleep~! Until tomorrow....

Harley1971
04-23-2010, 01:31 PM
This is definitely an interesting theory to consider.
I was wondering if they found anything suspicious in the autopsy would they have allowed her to be cremated? I watch way too many true crime shows and seen instances where they exhume the body and find out after the fact that the person was murdered. It would be horrible if they found some questionable evidence in the next few weeks and couldn't prove it due to the cremation (so sorry, that sounds terrible, I know) :(

redsky
04-24-2010, 12:08 AM
Kris brought up some a good points in the other thread.

1. The length of the scarf. Would it be difficult to have enough length to tie both ends.
2. She had just gotten that scarf from her sister for christmas, from what I understand. It would seem that she would choose another item to use.
3. Location - if you look in the photo thread, you can see that the rear staircase is outside and in a very open location. One would not think that she would choose that location if she did not want to be discovered by her younger sister, or other siblings. The open location also works against the murder theory, as it would have been more apt for someone witnessing a murder.
4. She had plugged her phone in to charge.

I think it is unlikely that it was a murder, but I would not exclude the possibility. Dont want to sound morbid, but it would be nice if someone examined the way the scarf was tied as it would probably be tied different if it was a suicude as opposed to a murder. Just some things to think about.:waitasec:

Can someone link me to the photo thread?