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daisy7
04-19-2010, 04:50 AM
Please continue here.

Thread #2: South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thread #1: South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

BeenaBobba
04-19-2010, 05:59 AM
Lots of new drama over at The Litterbox. Looks like G.S.'s mom (or someone posing as her mom) posted a comment claiming that Kayla Narey is "a good kid."

Sauerkraut's latest blog entry deals with her comment:

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/grace-szydziaks-mother-responds/#comments

She also responded in the comments here:

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/no-justice-no-peace/#comments

Here's an excerpt from one of her comments:


There really is good kids in this school, and yes we know Kayla very well, did you want Grace to just shut her out of her life, Kayla is a good kid and doesn’t deserve what you people are putting her through.

Oh my. That's ... interesting, huh?

Lou Cyper
04-19-2010, 06:59 AM
Does anyone have a link to the twitter posts mentioned on the second to last page of the previous thread?

I'd be interested to see screen caps of the postings made by Ashley etc directly after Phoebe died. Hopefully the prosecution have copies.

Paladine
04-19-2010, 10:19 AM
Does anyone have a link to the twitter posts mentioned on the second to last page of the previous thread?

I'd be interested to see screen caps of the postings made by Ashley etc directly after Phoebe died. Hopefully the prosecution have copies.
Oh, yes...I think the DA has copies. I don't have Ashley's comment on screenshot, yet...but it's out there. And CF2, on masslive, has told me he may have some screenshots for us, they might include Ashley's...if I get it I'll send it to you. I haven't been back over to ask again, if someone else does, and gets it...please share. ;)

ETA: I THINK these were FB posts...not sure about twitter...

Paladine
04-19-2010, 10:34 AM
Lots of new drama over at The Litterbox. Looks like G.S.'s mom (or someone posing as her mom) posted a comment claiming that Kayla Narey is "a good kid."

Sauerkraut's latest blog entry deals with her comment:

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/grace-szydziaks-mother-responds/#comments

She also responded in the comments here:

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/no-justice-no-peace/#comments

Here's an excerpt from one of her comments:



Oh my. That's ... interesting, huh?Very interesting. And, imo, after reading through that thread, it shines a whole new light the 'peace rally', for me...

Laurence
04-19-2010, 10:34 AM
Got some court dates in this article dated today, apologies if I missed somebody else posting this:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/new-court-papers-tell-of-phoebes-dark-last-day-2142478.html


It will take at least until this coming autumn for all of the defendants charged in the case to have their day in court. All three juvenile defendants, as required under Massachusetts law, must report by Friday afternoon to a juvenile court probation department. They were told by the judge in their cases to avoid the Prince family and keep the office informed of their whereabouts. A pre-trial conference has been scheduled for May 5, with a pre-trial hearing set for July 1.
A pre-trial conference in the cases of Mulveyhill, Narey and Austin Renaud, who is charged with statutory rape, is set for June 29, meaning the defendants will not appear in court until a September 15 pre-trial hearing unless special proceedings are scheduled in the interim. If convicted, Renaud and Mulveyhill could face up to life imprisonment

Paladine
04-19-2010, 10:36 AM
Thanks, Lawrence...:) And good morning!

Paladine
04-19-2010, 10:42 AM
EJ, the writer, has made a comment on that last litterbox post...well worth a read, imo. He talks about Katie. B. ....

Paladine
04-19-2010, 11:39 AM
Memorial page on FB for Phoebe has a status update about Mulveyhill support page and supporters...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?id=1073510334&aid=2053667&s=20&hash=7ec9e955f94624e041762601438d47f4#!/pages/Phoebe-Prince-Memorial-Page/105352276172296

Paladine
04-19-2010, 12:17 PM
Here's a link to a forum discussing formspring. Apparently, Phoebe was bullied on her formspring, too.

This brings up an interesting thought, for me. On foamspring for a question to be posted, the owner must choose to post it...and answer it. Did Phoebe post questions from the bullies? And how did she respond? Was that another way she tried to "tell" what was going on with her, what they we're doing to her?
Formspring controversy - The PokéCommunity Forums

MaureenN
04-19-2010, 12:27 PM
I've sent a 'suggestion' in to the Boston Herald, letting them know that the general community is interested in reading the full indictments against the six (not just the 3 'motions for joinder' that we've seen so far). I've also suggested that they investigate the 'Civil Rights violation resulting in bodily injury' to find out if the 'bodily injury' is the suicide or some other injury that was caused in the course of the harassment.

Maybe if we all send in suggestions, they might work towards getting us more info (if it's available to the public)

http://www.bostonherald.com/about/contact/ <-Send your suggestions in here

Laurence
04-19-2010, 12:32 PM
Here's a link to a forum discussing formspring. Apparently, Phoebe was bullied on her formspring, too.

This brings up an interesting thought, for me. On foamspring for a question to be posted, the owner must choose to post it...and answer it. Did Phoebe post questions from the bullies? And how did she respond? Was that another way she tried to "tell" what was going on with her, what they we're doing to her?
Formspring controversy - The PokéCommunity Forums (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?p=5710771)

Is it confirmed that she had one? If so, is it also deleted? I was aware of Facebook and supposedly the bullies put stuff on Craigs List, but had not seen any quotes or such from Formspring or other sites.

thebear14
04-19-2010, 12:58 PM
Is it confirmed that she had one? If so, is it also deleted? I was aware of Facebook and supposedly the bullies put stuff on Craigs List, but had not seen any quotes or such from Formspring or other sites.

I also read recently that the bullies had made a fake facebook for Phoebe and were making nasty comments and things like that on there. I doubt if Phoebe had a facebook she would be friends with these girls on there, and if they weren't friends they wouldn't have been able to leave comments on her personal facebook. Same for myspace. I don't know how formspring works or if Pheobe had one - but like you said I don't know why she would post nasty questions, especially if they were continuous. So it may be that the bullies made a fake one for Phoebe and made inappropriate innuendos regarding Phoebe.

Paladine
04-19-2010, 01:30 PM
Is it confirmed that she had one? If so, is it also deleted? I was aware of Facebook and supposedly the bullies put stuff on Craigs List, but had not seen any quotes or such from Formspring or other sites.
New York Daily News is one media outlet that said she did...and I think there we're more. I have not found it. And I've looked...

students said Phoebe was called "Irish slut" and "whore" on Twitter, Craigslist, Facebook and Formspring. Her books were routinely knocked out of her hands, items were flung at her, her face was scribbled out of photographs on the school walls, and threatening text messages were sent to her cell phone.

And Maureen, thanks so much for that info! I will email, if enough do, we might get somewhere...ETA: DONE!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/03/29/2010-03-29_phoebe_prince_south_hadley_high_schools_new_gir l_driven_to_suicide_by_teenage_cy.html

Paladine
04-19-2010, 01:33 PM
I also read recently that the bullies had made a fake facebook for Phoebe and were making nasty comments and things like that on there. I doubt if Phoebe had a facebook she would be friends with these girls on there, and if they weren't friends they wouldn't have been able to leave comments on her personal facebook. Same for myspace. I don't know how formspring works or if Pheobe had one - but like you said I don't know why she would post nasty questions, especially if they were continuous. So it may be that the bullies made a fake one for Phoebe and made inappropriate innuendos regarding Phoebe.
So, maybe they asked each other questions about Phoebe and trashed her that way...it's a possibility.

But if she had her own...I'd really like to know if she posted any of the questions or comments in an attempt to rebut them...

Paladine
04-19-2010, 01:47 PM
EJ, the writer, who has interviewed many friends in SH, makes a comment on this blog posting that breaks down the relationship of the girls and Mulveyhill. He makes some must read comments as to Mulveyhills role and the connectedness of the 2 groups, imo...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/expel-all-8-south-hadley-students-indicted-in-the-death-of-phoebe-prince/

thebear14
04-19-2010, 02:10 PM
So, maybe they asked each other questions about Phoebe and trashed her that way...it's a possibility.

But if she had her own...I'd really like to know if she posted any of the questions or comments in an attempt to rebut them...

yes that's possible as well. seems like a lot of girls from SHHS have one of these so I wouldn't be surprised if she had her own and did in fact answer some questions in an attempt to rebut them. I also wouldn't be surprised if, like I said, the bullies made a fake one for her and asked/answered questions that showed Phoebe in a bad light. At this point, I don't think anything would surprise me, sadly.

thebear14
04-19-2010, 03:02 PM
Bill Cosby Right about Phoebe Princes Principal, Teachers
http://www.***********.net/124344

Added the Bill Cosby link above for the comments.

Phoebe Prince wrote about self mutilation before suicide
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Phoebe-Prince-wrote-about-self-mutilation-before-suicide--91364699.html


Phoebe Prince wrote about self mutilation before she took her life, it has been revealed. It was a clear warning sign that the young Irish girl was deeply upset because of the bullying she was undergoing.

However defense attorneys are expected to use the new evidence to show that Phoebe was inclined to suicide and self damage before the bullying allegations

ugh! this whole thing is getting out of control. This girl wrote a report on a book she read, an assignment for class. I understand Irish Central is trying to make this look like a cry for help and yet another thing that went ignored but I just don't think it should be taken like that, especially at this point when we don't even know what prior issues she may or may not have had. Now people are going on about how she was mentally unstable or her mom should have been more involved, etc etc. I know it's not everybody but just some of the comments pissed me off. I just don't like how this is getting twisted around. :rant:

Laurence
04-19-2010, 03:20 PM
Bill Cosby Right about Phoebe Princes Principal, Teachers
http://www.***********.net/124344

Added the Bill Cosby link above for the comments.

Phoebe Prince wrote about self mutilation before suicide
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Phoebe-Prince-wrote-about-self-mutilation-before-suicide--91364699.html



ugh! this whole thing is getting out of control. This girl wrote a report on a book she read, an assignment for class. I understand Irish Central is trying to make this look like a cry for help and yet another thing that went ignored but I just don't think it should be taken like that, especially at this point when we don't even know what prior issues she may or may not have had. Now people are going on about how she was mentally unstable or her mom should have been more involved, etc etc. I know it's not everybody but just some of the comments pissed me off. I just don't like how this is getting twisted around. :rant:

This is only the beginning. With the actual court dates so far out we're going to see more and more of this over the summer. The defense and the supporters of the bullies are going to do anything they can to change people's minds about this BEFORE they get to trial.

And the way they do that is to trash Phoebe.

The more they get that done BEFORE the trials, then the LESS they have to do DURING the trial. Thus they avoid pissing off the jury by directly attacking the girl in court. Because that is "out there" and they only have to touch upon it to remind the jurors about Phoebe's alleged problems before she rudely incited those upstanding kids of SHHS.

As a side note, this paper by her was a short assignment for a 9th grade English class and was posted ONLINE, not hidden away in her journal. It doesn't mean a thing. In 9th grade I wrote a paper about Hannibal, but it didn't mean I was likely to lead an army over the Alps to attack Rome. That would be really cool, though. :p

raeann
04-19-2010, 03:54 PM
This is only the beginning. With the actual court dates so far out we're going to see more and more of this over the summer. The defense and the supporters of the bullies are going to do anything they can to change people's minds about this BEFORE they get to trial.

And the way they do that is to trash Phoebe.

The more they get that done BEFORE the trials, then the LESS they have to do DURING the trial. Thus they avoid pissing off the jury by directly attacking the girl in court. Because that is "out there" and they only have to touch upon it to remind the jurors about Phoebe's alleged problems before she rudely incited those upstanding kids of SHHS.

As a side note, this paper by her was a short assignment for a 9th grade English class and was posted ONLINE, not hidden away in her journal. It doesn't mean a thing. In 9th grade I wrote a paper about Hannibal, but it didn't mean I was likely to lead an army over the Alps to attack Rome. That would be really cool, though. :p


And my son is reading Hiroshima as an all class assigned book right now, in addition to Auschwitz as a personal book report assignment in his literature class--- simply because this quarter they are concentrating on non-fiction literature works. He is and always has been interested in history and political science. That doesn't mean that he is going to participate in any of the actions that are described in either book. Too bad for the attorneys that they are way behind the eight ball here on being able to control public opinion.

jmoo

Paladine
04-19-2010, 04:27 PM
On the day before Prince died, she allegedly told a friend "that she was accused by other girls at school of 'taking away' another girl's boyfriend; that she (Ms. Prince) was being targeted by peers and that accusations at school escalated to making threats of harming her. On January 13th, Ms. Prince explained school 'has been close to intolerable lately,'" the documents state.

After her death, the documents go on to state investigators searched Prince's cell phone to learn she had apparently exchanged text messages with a friend before taking her own life.

"The texts focused around the verbally abusive incidents Ms. Prince had been subjected to by Sean Mulveyhill, Kayla Narey and (Ashley Longe) earlier on the date of her death and her despair at the on-going taunting to which she was subjected," state the documents.
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12285134&nav=menu1460_2

thebear14
04-19-2010, 05:00 PM
This is only the beginning. With the actual court dates so far out we're going to see more and more of this over the summer. The defense and the supporters of the bullies are going to do anything they can to change people's minds about this BEFORE they get to trial.

And the way they do that is to trash Phoebe.

The more they get that done BEFORE the trials, then the LESS they have to do DURING the trial. Thus they avoid pissing off the jury by directly attacking the girl in court. Because that is "out there" and they only have to touch upon it to remind the jurors about Phoebe's alleged problems before she rudely incited those upstanding kids of SHHS.

As a side note, this paper by her was a short assignment for a 9th grade English class and was posted ONLINE, not hidden away in her journal. It doesn't mean a thing. In 9th grade I wrote a paper about Hannibal, but it didn't mean I was likely to lead an army over the Alps to attack Rome. That would be really cool, though. :p

oh yeah, I know - and I am prepared. I guess this issue, in particular, pisses off more. I feel that there's going to be more people who don't know what the ---- they're talking about than normal, because it's something a large majority of people don't understand.

and yeah - I wrote a paper in 9th grade about the holocaust - and am still crazy interested in it to this day. I do not, however, plan on torturing and killing millions of people. and the point you made about it being online and not hidden away is awesome. I feel like if this was something really personal for her, she wouldn't put it out there like that, knowing it was online and that classmates and her teacher would see it. If I suffered from an eating disorder, especially at age 14-15, I definitely wouldn't be writing an essay about it that would be posted online.

I think you hit the nail on the head a little while back, Laurence, when you said Phoebe is just one huge inconvenience for the people in SH. I'm not gonna say all, and I'm not even gonna say the majority although it could be, but for far too many she was and is an inconvenience and that's all. Too many don't care that a 15 year old lost her life too early or that a family is in an enormous amount of pain. They just care that their lives are being disrupted and that the whole country is looking at them, and that's it.

daisy7
04-19-2010, 05:07 PM
Thanks Phoenixfla for starting the thread to discuss Austin's new arrest. I already moved some posts over there.

Teen Arraigned in Phoebe Prince Case Arrested for Drunken Driving - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Laurence
04-19-2010, 05:28 PM
I feel like if this was something really personal for her, she wouldn't put it out there like that, knowing it was online and that classmates and her teacher would see it. If I suffered from an eating disorder, especially at age 14-15, I definitely wouldn't be writing an essay about it that would be posted online.

Agreed.


I think you hit the nail on the head a little while back, Laurence, when you said Phoebe is just one huge inconvenience for the people in SH. I'm not gonna say all, and I'm not even gonna say the majority although it could be, but for far too many she was and is an inconvenience and that's all. Too many don't care that a 15 year old lost her life too early or that a family is in an enormous amount of pain. They just care that their lives are being disrupted and that the whole country is looking at them, and that's it.

Thanks. :) I think that as this drags on over the summer we will see more and more people in that town lose it and say bad things about Phoebe. Especially people connected with the bullies.

Right now it (the trials) is far off. But as the weeks go by they will get closer and closer on the calendar and there will come a point at which it will sink in for them that this is for real. And they will panic, the relatives and close friends. The bullies themselves as well, though it will be through their friends. Though who knows, Austin apparently feels free enough to go get toasted and drive around, maybe the rest will be as foolish. It would be the height of hilarity to me if one or more of them says something really stupid in public and dooms them all.

I think late this summer we will start to see a real rise in very specific accusations about Phoebe. Some will be lawyer stuff like we've discussed, but all these kids that support the bullies will be the ones that release most of it. Mostly likely in the form of poorly spelled grammar disasters like we've seen with Grace S. and her mother recently. :twocents:

What I am most interested to see as we get closer to the court dates is if one of more of them turn on each other. With six and six sets of parents and six lawyers... odds are good and I bet the DA is going to push them.

dcbrent
04-19-2010, 05:51 PM
Agreed.



Thanks. :) I think that as this drags on over the summer we will see more and more people in that town lose it and say bad things about Phoebe. Especially people connected with the bullies.

Right now it (the trials) is far off. But as the weeks go by they will get closer and closer on the calendar and there will come a point at which it will sink in for them that this is for real. And they will panic, the relatives and close friends. The bullies themselves as well, though it will be through their friends. Though who knows, Austin apparently feels free enough to go get toasted and drive around, maybe the rest will be as foolish. It would be the height of hilarity to me if one or more of them says something really stupid in public and dooms them all.

I think late this summer we will start to see a real rise in very specific accusations about Phoebe. Some will be lawyer stuff like we've discussed, but all these kids that support the bullies will be the ones that release most of it. Mostly likely in the form of poorly spelled grammar disasters like we've seen with Grace S. and her mother recently. :twocents:

What I am most interested to see as we get closer to the court dates is if one of more of them turn on each other. With six and six sets of parents and six lawyers... odds are good and I bet the DA is going to push them.

One thing I would be very concerned about before trial is protecting the witnesses from intimidation from the friends/allies of the accused. As everyone has pointed out, it's a small town. Once the identities of the witnesses are disclosed in discovery, if they're not known already, who knows what pressure can be brought to bear. Don't at least few of the accused have friends in high places locally? Those witnesses are going to need a lot of support to continue to do the right thing. It was courageous of them to cooperate with the investigation. It will require courage up to and during trial.

Paladine
04-19-2010, 06:12 PM
Lawrence, dcbrent, bear...great posts. So true. They will and are trying to trash her, imo. And fighting their pr offensive will be paramount, in my mind. We, the public, can help through comments, letters to newspapers, voting in online polls...it's alot like many political campaigns I've been involved in. It's all about spin. Disinformation and spin. I want to counter the spin with FACTS. Who can stand by and watch them trash her AGAIN to protect their sorry asses? Not me. And not the forum members I know.

And I worry, too, about the witnesses. Alot. Pressure can be brought to bear in so many ways. That's why they need to feel the light of the media glare, imo. I would think it would help the witnesses feel more protected.

AstuteLearner8
04-19-2010, 10:24 PM
Lots of new drama over at The Litterbox. Looks like G.S.'s mom (or someone posing as her mom) posted a comment claiming that Kayla Narey is "a good kid."

Sauerkraut's latest blog entry deals with her comment:

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/grace-szydziaks-mother-responds/#comments

She also responded in the comments here:

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/no-justice-no-peace/#comments

Here's an excerpt from one of her comments:



Oh my. That's ... interesting, huh?

Thanks for the link, I wasted a good portion of my afternoon looking at the blog, it is very informative about the case perhaps more informative than the investigators (regarding internet info)? Good work Sauerkraut (hope I spelt his name right).

Now I really have three questions that I'm dying to post to Grace S.....

AstuteLearner8
04-19-2010, 10:46 PM
Oh and for those who want to watch, there is an E Entertainment Investigates about Bullying episode on April 21st on the E channel.

http://www.eonline.com/on/shows/thsi/episodes/index.jsp

Here is the full tv schedule, if you miss the April 21st episode you apparently have four more chances to view the program :woohoo:

(wonder if they are going to discuss about the case of Phoebe Prince....)

dcbrent
04-19-2010, 11:37 PM
I wonder if the DA or the police were able to successfully subpoena facebook, or secure their cooperation, in providing information about the "we murdered phoebe prince" facebook page. I want to believe it's electronically archived somewhere within facebook. That would be a heckuva smoking gun and worth publishing just to show the world who her "friends" really were. Anyone heard anything about that?

AstuteLearner8
04-20-2010, 12:04 AM
I wonder if the DA or the police were able to successfully subpoena facebook, or secure their cooperation, in providing information about the "we murdered phoebe prince" facebook page. I want to believe it's electronically archived somewhere within facebook. That would be a heckuva smoking gun and worth publishing just to show the world who her "friends" really were. Anyone heard anything about that?

According to this post from the Litterbox blog dated February 3, 2010 the police indeed subpoenaed facebook.

http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/phoebe-prince-police-serve-subpoena-on-facebook/


Amid continuing reports that the girls named elsewhere as the bullies of the now-dead Phoebe Prince are making negative comments about the girl who passed away nearly 3 weeks ago on Facebook. And that at least a couple of them have created new Facebook pages with altered last names. But now the mainstream media is reporting that subpoenas were served upon Facebook. The coppers hopefully will look closely at the group We Murdered Phoebe Prince. And they hopefully will go after Myspace and the records of building principal Daniel Smith.

And here is the video that was on the post that talked about the subpoena of Facebook.

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/28847459/legal-issues-surrounding-teen-s-suicide.htm#q=fox%20legal

Paladine
04-20-2010, 02:22 PM
VIDEO: Prince case discussed on the View
http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/...rn__159020.asp

irie
04-20-2010, 03:05 PM
Sorry in advance if this story has already been posted (written by Laurie Loisel, the Daily Hampshire Gazette's cities editor):

http://www.gazettenet.com/print/265987

Paladine
04-20-2010, 03:13 PM
Sorry in advance if this story has already been posted (written by Laurie Loisel, the Daily Hampshire Gazette's cities editor):

http://www.gazettenet.com/print/265987
I hadn't seen that, irie! Thanks...

Great write up. I'm going to email her, as well, and ask where the dox are for the other 3, she has links for the first 3's dox in this piece... lloisel@gazettenet.com

thebear14
04-20-2010, 10:16 PM
E.J. has an interesting comment on Sauerkraut's blog here
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/south-hadleys-cone-of-silence/#comments

towards the end.

Paladine
04-20-2010, 11:49 PM
E.J. has an interesting comment on Sauerkraut's blog here
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/south-hadleys-cone-of-silence/#comments

towards the end.
Thanks! Good one. Someone also posted some text from P. L.'s profile status...the comment thread where it's alleged Austin laughed. Someone questioned if it was real. I left a comment and confirmed I have seen, and have (through another person), the screenshot.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 12:06 AM
Reading SH area headlines at WWLP and came across this on their front page...

Problem in Holyoke with homeless cats
Holyoke City Leaders have postponed action on a ban on feeding feral and homeless cats.
I tell you...that would be that day hell froze over, the day that I would turn away a hungry, homeless cat. BOY...glad I don't live there. I'd have no time for this forum. I'd be camped out with meow mix at city hall. ;)

http://www.wwlp.com/subindex/news

Paladine
04-21-2010, 01:32 AM
If anyone catches the Today Show...please post details. Details of Phoebe's last thoughts are promised. I can't, I'm not a morning person. ;)

Exclusive new details in the Phoebe Prince bullying case tmrw @todayshow. What she was thinking just before her suicide...in her own words.
about 6 hours ago via UberTwitter http://twitter.com/jeffrossen

Lou Cyper
04-21-2010, 03:16 AM
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/austin_renaud_defendant_in_pho_1.html

At about 4:15 on the video the lawyer when asked if it's been tough on Renaud says "being indicted or charged with crimes is about the worst experience you can probably have".

I could think of a couple of things around this case that seemed worse.

AstuteLearner8
04-21-2010, 04:55 AM
This is sort of on topic but today on Wednesday it's To Write Love on Her Arms Day!

Here's more about the event:

Thats right, another TWLOHA day!! To Write Love on Her Arms is a non-profit movement dedicated to presenting hope and finding help for people struggling with depression, addiction, self-injury and suicide. The idea of a TWLOHA day is quite simple: write the word love on your arm on April 21st. The goal is to raise awareness of those who are hurting as well as promote TWLOHAs work to provide hope, help, and support.

Please join us as we come together to support the love movement and invite your friends.



Excerpt from TWLOHAs vision statement:

The vision is that community and hope and help would replace secrets and silence.

The vision is people putting down guns and blades and bottles.

The vision is that we can reduce the suicide rate in America and around the world.

The vision is that we would learn what it means to love our friends, and that we would love ourselves enough to get the help we need.

The vision is better endings. The vision is the restoration of broken families and broken relationships. The vision is people finding life, finding freedom, finding love. The vision is graduation, a Super Bowl, a wedding, a child, a sunrise. The vision is people becoming incredible parents, people breaking cycles, making change.

The vision is the possibility that your best days are ahead.

The vision is the possibility that we're more loved than we'll ever know.

The vision is hope, and hope is real.

You are not alone, and this is not the end of your story.



To view TWLOHAs full vision statement and learn more, visit http://www.twloha.com/vision/

From http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=115978155083886

And there should be an archived video for tomorrow so I wouldn't worry about waking up in the morning to view the Today Show.

thebear14
04-21-2010, 08:44 AM
If anyone catches the Today Show...please post details. Details of Phoebe's last thoughts are promised. I can't, I'm not a morning person. ;)
http://twitter.com/jeffrossen

I just checked the today show website and I think this is what they were talking about:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/36684580#36684580

Basically it's talking about the essays she wrote, the cutting one, in particular :rolleyes:. I'm not trying to say there's absolutely nothing to it, but as I said, I hate to focus in on it too much. It may be something she was interested in, it may be something her friends went through, it may be something she went through. It may be the first book that jumped out at her at the library. Who knows at this point, we have no evidence right now of anything of the sort.

They also talked about how she encountered some bullying at Villiers so transferred to her mom's school in Ireland. Her parents were separating and she was dealing with moving away from Ireland, her parents being separated, and not being near her father, all things we knew.

eta: they actually had a real screen shot of what one of the girls said after Phoebe died, that she brought it on herself or something along those lines, and also had a picture of Sean and KB smiling big! for the camera at cotillion, two short days after Phoebe died.

thebear14
04-21-2010, 08:46 AM
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/austin_renaud_defendant_in_pho_1.html

At about 4:15 on the video the lawyer when asked if it's been tough on Renaud says "being indicted or charged with crimes is about the worst experience you can probably have".

I could think of a couple of things around this case that seemed worse.

um yeah seriously! omg...and to think we likely haven't heard the worst of it.

eta: I think being 12 years old and coming home to find your 15 year old sister hanging from a stairwell is probably the worst experience you can have. as well as everything Phoebe went through.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 10:16 AM
I just checked the today show website and I think this is what they were talking about:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/36684580#36684580

Basically it's talking about the essays she wrote, the cutting one, in particular :rolleyes:. I'm not trying to say there's absolutely nothing to it, but as I said, I hate to focus in on it too much. It may be something she was interested in, it may be something her friends went through, it may be something she went through. It may be the first book that jumped out at her at the library. Who knows at this point, we have no evidence right now of anything of the sort.

They also talked about how she encountered some bullying at Villiers so transferred to her mom's school in Ireland. Her parents were separating and she was dealing with moving away from Ireland, her parents being separated, and not being near her father, all things we knew.

eta: they actually had a real screen shot of what one of the girls said after Phoebe died, that she brought it on herself or something along those lines, and also had a picture of Sean and KB smiling big! for the camera at cotillion, two short days after Phoebe died.

Thanks, bear! I don't put much thought into the cutting essay. But the bolded part of your post...well, that made me smile. :) I'll look for the online video for our media thread, later today...unless someone else posts it first...

Litterbox also has a new posting about the Today Show...
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/

thebear14
04-21-2010, 10:28 AM
Reading SH area headlines at WWLP and came across this on their front page...

I tell you...that would be that day hell froze over, the day that I would turn away a hungry, homeless cat. BOY...glad I don't live there. I'd have no time for this forum. I'd be camped out with meow mix at city hall. ;)

http://www.wwlp.com/subindex/news

ha! I'd be right there with you :)

Paladine
04-21-2010, 10:45 AM
Phoebe's story helps another girl...THIS is why it's important to spread awareness...

"Mom: Bullying suicide case saved my daughter
Woman saw signs, intervened after learning about Phoebe Prince"

The words were hauntingly similar to what Phoebe Prince was reported to have said before the 15-year-old committed suicide.

"My daughter said things like, 'I can't go on,' and 'Nobody will help me and nobody can help me,' " recalled Carla Carey of Foxboro, Mass.

For months, Carey's daughter had reported harassment by a classmate to school officials, who said they looked into her complaints but could not corroborate the incidents. Then a recent spate of calls, which Carey overheard, left her daughter in tears — and sounding like Prince.
Read more: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36686284/ns/today-today_people/#ixzz0lkJPQcor

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 10:51 AM
I think you hit the nail on the head a little while back, Laurence, when you said Phoebe is just one huge inconvenience for the people in SH. I'm not gonna say all, and I'm not even gonna say the majority although it could be, but for far too many she was and is an inconvenience and that's all. Too many don't care that a 15 year old lost her life too early or that a family is in an enormous amount of pain. They just care that their lives are being disrupted and that the whole country is looking at them, and that's it.

Underlining and bolding mine.

I hope that I contribute to eventually clearing this up so that we can devote time to the realities of this case and also focus our energies upon what each one of us can do to get bullying addressed as the serious issue it is, get it classified as the Hate Crime that it is, the violation of Civil Rights that it is and most especially get it treated as the child abuse that it is and get it punishable (harshly) by law ZERO FREEKIN TOLERANCE so that some sense can be slapped into some willful little deranged BRATS and as few kids as possible have to suffer what Phoebe did and so that hopefully no more kids will kill themselves as result of this stupidity.

And so that people who choose to create little replicas of themselves, to inflict upon the Earth and society tiny copies of their own ignorant selves will hopefully be encouraged to do some actual PARENTING or to surrender their kids to people capable of this via Legal adoption.

Rather than investing time on stuff that is just totally inaccurate.

Underlined parts above just...I don't even know where to begin really.

If you genuinely believe those things to be true...within your heart, intuitively, rationally this is what you've concluded to be true.....wow.....theres prolly not alot anyone can say to convince you otherwise cuz those things are........they defy logic completely....I can't even think of how to try and refute that stuff cuz its just so :out there"...........just wow.


Good news is Bolded part is accurate though!!

It was hard as HELL because reporters have hounded people beyond what you can imagine then only reported stuff that made SH appear to be a den of wolves but I managed to make contact with some students, residents and even a couple family members of the accused bcuz I was totally baffled by the lack of sadness in SH being shown by media. I'd never seen a situation wherein a community could be expected to be grieving but apparently was not so I was forced to contemplate if SH was a town without a soul.

Its really not. The media has chosen to focus upon things other than how South Hadley residents and damn near ALL of the kids at the school feel about and this and how it has effected them.

SH is indeed feeling inconvenienced but NOT in the least by Phoebe Prince, not in any way this.....the overwhelming majority of residents...nowhere even close to what you describe. Most people there, students and non they can't even comprehend how any one with a brain could reach the conclusion that they feel anything but deeply saddened about what happened.

A question kept coming up and its a good one, from people in SH:

"How would YOU feel if the little town you lived in, at its only High School a girl from Ireland, the country our own ancestors came from and us Irish just like Phoebe and she was called "Irish Slut" by some kids you don't even KNOW and they torment her so bad she hangs herself??"

They wanna know why you would think they feel any differently than how you or any non-crazy person would feel about this!!!???.

They wanna know how you got the idea that they are....everyone in the town or just MOST OF THEM, like the kids who tormented Phoebe seem to them to be....just like seem to many of you, sociopaths....they wanna know how in God's name you reached the conclusion that they are for these kids they don't even know when these kids tormented a girl Irish like themselves and called her Irish Slut?.


I kinda wanna know that too. Cuz its fairly "strange" how people have bought in so totally to this concept of "evil little town".

Just, like I said, defies all logic....like episodes of twilight zone or outer limits it makes no sense or like any episode of LOST...totally nonsensical, insultingly implausible and completely and utterly ridiculous.

People in SH felt inconvenienced by 4 things, pretty much in this order:

1). an extremely aggressive media who from the start of this chose to air/report only that which would frame the school and, to a lesser degree, the town as having considered Phoebe an outsider and having chosen willfully to not protect her then when she died sought only to shelter "their own". These kids, in the opinion of most within the town and at this point pretty damn close to ALL except for the accused families and their friends consider these kids....well...that brings us to inconvenience #2:

2). A group of poorly raised and/or spoiled brat kids who caused hell to reign down on the town. If you can honestly get yourself to believe that a town of 17,000 most of whom have no association whatsoever with these kids or their families are somehow involved in a sort of "cabal" or allegiance that has them, as if they are Stepford Wives, zombified walking to the beat of some mysterious drum thats causing them to be blind to the evil that took place and to be unable to reject this with every ounce of their being and feel the same about these kids as the most the rest of America and The world DOES then you have allowed yourself to become brainwashed by the media. They just want this over with, so would you. They want these kids punished, just as you do.

A great deal of students at SHHS on a day soon after Phoebe's death wore stickers memorializing her and they refused to speak, total silence except for the sound of crying when kids broke down which even the "toughest" kids on campus did you can't imagine what it was like unless you have been through something like that. The media showed nothing of this. The only images you'll see of the area set up in the library that kids covered in candles and notes to Phoebe are those belonging to kids. The media was there. They showed nothing of this.

People cried in the streets, broke down in public. People who didn't even KNOW Phoebe. Parents. People who didn't have kids. This went on for days and even got more intense as knowledge of what a few kids had put Phoebe through got around the town. The town, like the school was engulfed in an air of sadness, total "strangers" shed tears for a 15 year old girl they never knew, alot of people left candles, stuffed animals, cards, letters all kinds of stuff all over the front and side area of Phoebe's house. The media showed you a picture of 1/50th of that.....a gated area of the front fence.

3). and this is at worst TIED for "inconvenience" with #2 above...The administration of South Hadley High School. At the most recent meeting of the school board, when those who attempted to speak against Sayer and Smith were tossed out of the meeting some who support Sayer/Smith were allowed to speak. Of these a late 30 year old- mid 40's I don;t know exactly what age but living with his mom, unemployed tools around SH on a BICYCLE has no kids guy....

That outta tell you something. People in SH ain't clamoring to support these guys...just the opposite. Its a small town though and people have to deal with the realities of that.

One of those realities is that there are people so ashamed and saddened by this situation that they want to move away from South Hadley but...and this is the FOURTH INCONVENIENCE prolly not FOURTH in order of inconveniences to MANY current residents of SH...

4.) their property values, already low bcuz the housing crisis, foreclosures tight credit recession etc, have plummeted even FURTHER bcuz ain't no one with a KID coming anywhere NEAR South Hadley...people who have to pass through to get to Springfield you can hear their cardoor-locks plunk down as soon as they see the South Hadley sign.

Most people in SH believe that they'll get past this, no time soon mind you but they strongly believe that Sayer is not gonna weather this storm, Smith prolly not either. Theres a good number of people in SH who don't have a clue why the hell Sayer was brought in from Amherst anyway....in the first place and they recognize him as the ratfink that he is. If you just substituted "Gus Sayer" for Phoebe in your rumination about what folks in SH feel "inconvenienced" by you'd have PART of the answer of whats bugging them.....Get real about the people of SH use some common sense, these are regular people just like you and your neighbors....they are not what the media has portrayed them to be, alot of them are even more devastated by this tragedy than any of us are or ever will be cuz Newton is a fairly major street (where Phoebe's house still sits) and they gotta drive by that house, see it on a regular basis.

What do you think the FEEL when they see that house???

If you answer "nothing" or anything other than deep grief you are so wrong there aren't even words within the English language to adequately describe the depth of your wrongness.


The last thing these people consider Phoebe Prince to be is an "inconvenience". Most people in South Hadley, again, would not be capable of grasping how anyone could even manage to get to a place where they could even IMAGINE such a thing.......let alone believe it.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 11:04 AM
Dr. Phail...:)

If you read FB, as I know you do, you have seen postings from SH peeps saying "GO AWAY MEDIA", making excuses for the bullies, blaming Phoebe, defending Smith and Sayer. Those comments give the appearance that they think Phoebe is an inconvenience, imo. Now, agreed...most people in SH may be hurt and wounded as you say. No argument, there. But they need to speak up. They need to make their voices heard above the nutbars. I know bear was not blanketing the whole town with that statement, I've read her posts, she has compassion. But...you must admit...it does look like "bizzarro land"?

An underage drinker gets an over the limit charge????? Bizzarro, buddy...:)

Paladine
04-21-2010, 11:09 AM
Dr. Phail...I certainly do love the way you write, at times...love this...thanks for the laugh! :)

"people who have to pass through to get to Springfield you can hear their cardoor-locks plunk down as soon as they see the South Hadley sign."

AndyRyan
04-21-2010, 12:02 PM
Dr Phail, If more people like you spoke up then I am sure the general public would not view South Hadley so badly. I totally agree that most people here are most probably decent people but the sad thing is that the most vocal South Hadley residents seem to be the ones standing up for the bullies, the ones that will throw sly digs at Phoebe and her parents in order to make excuses for for the actions of a few.
Also I think the biggest reason people are viewing South Hadley in a bad light is because of the way the school officials dealt with this case, with not an ounce of genuine compassion or sense of justice. They are the ones who (IMO) people are taking their lead from, especially the students. It was dealt with very badly from the start, no punishments meted out just some students (and not even all the students involved) asked to withdraw from the school. If they had come down more harshly on these students because they abhorred bullying, if they had shown people that they cared about what had happened to Phoebe I truly believe that the media would have looked away from South Hadley by now but all their actions immediately after it happened and in the following months showed them to be more worried about covering their own arses.
Some of the students who I have seen post comments about leaving South Hadley alone etc. talk more about the effects on their own lives with little apparent compassion for Phoebe or her family, its more like "this happens all over the place, you can't do anything about it so just go away". It just comes across as cold and uncaring.
Yes I have seen some lovely comments from people in South Hadley but they are just not as frequent sadly.
This is just my opinion as a South Hadley outsider, I do not think the whole town is bad I just think it has a few bad eggs at its helm and same goes for the students of South Hadley, I think that most of the students are normal nice kids, same as anywhere, but its the mouthy, hard-necked, spoilt ones that seem to do most of the talking.
Maybe its time for the good people of South Hadley, young and old to speak up and drown out the ones that are damaging your reputation.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 12:32 PM
OMG...WWLP is taking the essay to a WHOLE new level!! What a crock!! She was NOT talking about herself, it was a book report! I knew it'd come from WWLP. IMO...their coverage has not been balanced. WHO is this so-called DOCTOR?

Notice the build up...NEW, DISTURBING, DETAILS...makes it sound BIG....it's a darn BOOK REPORT, idiots!


SOUTH HADLEY, Mass. (WWLP) - There are new details emerging about Phoebe Prince, in the days and months before she committed suicide. School essays she wrote about "cutting", paint a disturbing picture about the freshman's emotional well-being.

NBC News obtained two essays that Prince wrote for a South Hadley High School English class. On one of the essays, the 15 year-old wrote about a book she read called, "Cutting", written by a psychotherapist.

Prince writes: "This book I really connected with, as I found there was truth in every word." She says self-mutilation is about "trying to transfer the pain from emotional to physical."

Dr. Barry Sarvet, a Baystate Medical Center child psychiatrist, explained that cutting is a tell tale sign of depression.
Cutting may be a sign of depression...but.....WE HAVE NO PROOF PHOEBE WAS A CUTTER! She simply WROTE an book report!

AND...HOW does it matter??? It has no bearing on WHAT THEY DID! They STALKED, they HARASSED...so...if she had issues...IT'S OKAY???

THIS is NOT relevant or accurate, imo...it's SPIN.

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/prince-wrote-about-cutting-in-class

Paladine
04-21-2010, 12:50 PM
WHAT they DIDN'T print from Phoebez Blog..."people CLOSE to me" she WROTE! NOT HER! This makes me so angry...they actually CUT her sentence OFF to fit their premise!!

From WWLP..
SOUTH HADLEY, Mass. (WWLP) - There are new details emerging about Phoebe Prince, in the days and months before she committed suicide. School essays she wrote about "cutting", paint a disturbing picture about the freshman's emotional well-being.

NBC News obtained two essays that Prince wrote for a South Hadley High School English class. On one of the essays, the 15 year-old wrote about a book she read called, "Cutting", written by a psychotherapist.

Prince writes: "This book I really connected with, as I found there was truth in every word." She says self-mutilation is about "trying to transfer the pain from emotional to physical." Dr. Barry Sarvet, a Baystate Medical Center child psychiatrist, explained that cutting is a tell tale sign of depression.

FROM PHOEBE....

Some questions that arise from the book for me are; how does the author himself cope with dealing with such a morose field? How does he manage to understand what’s going on inside the self-mutilators head? I think Levenkron does a great job of bringing self mutilation a usually tabooed subject in our society to light. I think he wrote the piece to show that people shouldn’t be afraid of speaking out about self-mutilation and those who do it shouldn’t be condemned as selfish. This book I really connected with as I found there was truth in every word that Levenkron wrote and it helped me comprehend what people close to me have gone through.



IF she'd gone through it, idiots at WWLP, she wouldn't have to TRY and COMPREHEND! AND WHY did you cut her sentence in HALF???

http://phoebepenglish9e.blogspot.com/2009_10_01_archive.html

ETA: NOTICE...they changed her post to add a comma and cut off everything after "and"...OMG.

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 12:53 PM
If you read FB, as I know you do, you have seen postings from SH peeps saying "GO AWAY MEDIA", making excuses for the bullies, blaming Phoebe, defending Smith and Sayer. Those comments give the appearance that they think Phoebe is an inconvenience, imo.

I appreciate what you're saying. Don't allow those who are "blaming Phoebe" and/or coming out in support of Smith/Sayer to make you believe that they are representative of SH cuz they're not. These people represent SH as much as Al Queda represents Muslims or as much as The Trailer Park Boys are representative of Canadians.


Now, agreed...most people in SH may be hurt and wounded as you say. No argument, there. But they need to speak up. They need to make their voices heard.

They tried to be heard. Be mindful of the fact that most media didn't latch onto this story until the latter part of March, about 72 days after Phoebe died, some of the National Media not going "full barrels" until April and other parts of the world not jumping in as late as April 7th or so.

Most media came in with one focus. This was the story of a school administration that turned their back on a student, allowing her to be tormented before their eyes and eventually bullied to death.

Then Sayer started talking.

Had Sayer never opened his mouth MAYBE the media HAS to report on the community's pain...just to have footage of something but Sayer + Talking is not a good combination, dude is lame.

Universe making a FUNNY by having this dude named "SAYer" cuz he's the LAST DUDE who should be saying ANYTHING. Universe's funny not so funny here though more aggravating, perplexing, mind numbingly dumb than funny.


There was plenty of footage shot however by channel 22 and other "locals" directly after Jan 14 that CNN, NBC, CBS could easily have gotten, were offered likely HAD that they could run to show the absolutely heart wrenching devastation the community felt, had they wanted to portray South Hadley's reaction to this tragedy....they could have "squeezed this in" between Sayer's idiocy....which they should have done but they chose not to. Maybe that was in part bcuz of that 72 day delay but News producers are smart enough to know that if they do not show a town's sadness that a misconception about the town will follow. 22 and the other locals showed that side of course but 95% of those who have come to be invested in this story never saw any footage of the devastation this caused the community. Like I said in that other post: this was an Irish girl from the "homeland" where most of this area's ancestors came from and she was called Irish Slut by kids that only a teeny tiny minuscule portion of the town's population have any "allegiance" to and a hell of a lot MORE in the town who know anything at all about these kids know that, some of these kids, their (single) parents are headcases, possible white trash drug addicts or just parents who don't attempt to reign in their kids so they're not FANS of these kids.....the few that even friggin KNOW THEM!!!

Really the only true exception to this is the Mulveyhills....generally regarded as "very good to great" parents, family known cuz they were active in sports, church....the community.....beyond them South Hadley's "perception" of these kids and their parents, to an overwhelming extent ....where any opinion on them even existed at all prior to this incident, pretty much falls off a cliff....

If you could truly KNOW how ridiculous it is to think that SH is defending or on the "side of" Ashley and Sharon you would laugh out loud the idea is so absurd and so opposite the truth....Kayla and Flannery, theres some that will rise to their defense but mostly family and friends of these....more beyond these than for Ashley and Sharon...pretty much only family and close family friends there....don't expect to see a "We support Ashley Longe" page anytime soon and were one to come to be it'd have, like, 6 members.....anything above that would mean that 6 people created multiple facebook accounts to make it appear the club was less empty.

Theres a reason you see only one (really) facebook page claiming support for a "bully" and thats for Sean Mulveyhill......

more than a few people are really really puzzled by what the hell went wrong with this kid here......which is why I've been asking "why was Sean so mad at Phoebe".......I have gotten some opinions....the answer to that is gonna be very important. When and if it is known. Deal is with Sean that he was a snake, a flirt, a fake christian, a thief and a liar among other unsavory things but he (apparently) also had a good side (at some point at least) which is making people not just give up on him.

Maybe they know why he was mad at Phoebe.....a few of them must anyway.

I ain't made the right "contact" to feel like I've found this answer.


they (South Hadleyningas) need to speak up. They need to make their voices heard above the nutbars.

Nutbars??!!??

Must be a Canadian term.


Right now much of the media is gone, finally. Even of they weren't though were SH residents to rise up and say "tell the truth of how the town FEELS" at this late hour that would come of as "on there they go thinking only of themselves.......how they look"

Pretty much whats done is done.....not much they can say at this point. There is not alot of division in the town about Sayer seems overwhelmingly people want him gone

Smith.....lotta people have love for Smith and the fact is that theres people who maintain that there were links in the armor beneath Smith, as principal, that are in place to get aware of bullying issues and bring these to his attention when warranted.....others say he's the principal he should have known PERIOD.

We gotta get more specifics on Phoebe's visit to whomever it was on the 7th Jan. and details on what was discussed in her Mom's 2 visits to the school.

I sense that Phoebe was less than totally "forthcoming" about the depth of the bullying problem...what was at its root, I wouldn't be surprised if even its revealed that Mrs. Prince went in on her own, and not at Phoebe's request....all I mean by this is if Mrs. Prince didn't realize the depth of the problem perhaps she was less demanding than she would have been that a solution be found immediately....we just don't have enough details on what took place in these meetings, hopefully we will oneday.

Of paramount importance is the fact that the 2nd group, Sharon/Flannery it appears do not really "get going" on bullying Phoebe until approx. Jan 5th....maybe later....I don;t know for sure seems I have heard that they did some stuff prior to Christmas Break which would have been in Dec. but I only saw that stated in one place......kids I have talked with (that even knew at all) said they didn't know That Phoebe had beef with Flannery until January just before Sharon got suspended which was Jan. 7th....

You can say all you want that "they knew" but until we get some sort of time line that includes details of what was discussed within meetings the only people who can say for sure what they knew is admin of the school and Mrs. Prince.


I know bear was not blanketing the whole town with that statement, I've read her posts, she has compassion.

I am sorry for coming off like I was blasting bear, the "you" I used there was intended as a general you but I know it didn't come across that way. I have no stake on repairing the image of South Hadley just every single person I have talked to said the same thing, the pain was real and intense at the loss of Phoebe.

Plus bears are scary.

I think theres maybe no more scary animal than a bear.

Okay, maybe a tiger. And a shark. and a havelina....they're more scary than a bear but thats all.


But...you must admit...it does look like "bizzarro land"?

An underage drinker gets an over the limit charge????? Bizzarro, buddy...:)

yeah well I won't argue with that. Its definitely a weird little town in some ways but, man, most people there were totally crushed by this thing.

I mean, the key thing to focus upon here is even though Pheebz was born in England she was in Ireland since she was 2 and she was an Irish Girl through and through and many people saw their "Mums", grandmums, in Pheebz.....

she was Irish just like they are. The more people learned of this thing the sicker they became, literally heartsick....and thats no over cause the docs we got I understand are just "joinders", not designed to lay out in great detail the totality of incidents upon which charges are based so along with the trashing of Phoebe we got a bunch more shoes maybe yet to fall re: details of what these little sociopath monsters actually DID to poor Pheebz. :(

MaureenN
04-21-2010, 01:07 PM
I know that a large part of what first got me interested in this story, as an outsider, someone who does not live in or near the town & was not immediately affected by what happened, was the comments being made both in news stories (Angeles Chanon saying, basically, 'Kids call names, what's the big deal?') and in the comments to the news stories (the endless stream of 'kids will be kids', 'girls are mean, she should have just learned to deal with it', 'boys will be boys & will do anything for sex, that's just the way it is', etc.)

What concerned me in that & what made me feel like I needed to read more, to try to understand, was the lack of substantial follow-up from anyone saying "Yes, kids do bad things, that's true. That's why they have parents, to teach them how and why what they're doing is wrong." It seemed, from the imbalance in the comments being made, that society as a whole, at least as it applied to this high school in this community, had given up on saying 'this is wrong behavior' to their children.

And, yes, it's the internet - so, there is always likely to be a disproportionate representation of people who feel strongly & have enough time on their hands to post about their feelings. I know that. But, even then, I still don't see many people saying "Hey, wait a minute, I live here and I think these kids were wrong in what they did".

It leaves me, the outside viewer & a parent of elementary aged children -and- a teen, with the worry that, maybe, this 'giving up on teaching our kids that some things are just wrong' *is* a societal trend & something that I should be concerned about. It leaves me feeling like a 'grumpy old man' talking about 'parents these days'.

So I, for one, would be thrilled if the adults of South Hadley showed me that my impression was wrong - that they are still willing to correct children & teens when they make the mistakes that children & teens will make, instead of just shrugging their shoulders, saying 'kids will be kids' and walking away.

MaureenN
04-21-2010, 01:30 PM
So, to put it more succinctly. I'm sure that people were sad when a teen in their community killed herself. In fact, it might sound cold, but I'm not sure whether that matters to me.

What I'd like to know is whether people in the community (and in the world at large) are OK with kids being cruel to other kids, these days. That they accept that behavior as unchangeable and think that the only thing that can and should be done is to teach kids how to cope with the unchangeable, inevitable cruelty that will be directed at them.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 01:58 PM
Wow...so glad you posted, Maureen. Great post. :blowkiss:

and...my comment...I co-sign what YOU said...lol...;)

Paladine
04-21-2010, 02:02 PM
Dr. Phail...please...shhh...between you and me...some of my dear fellow Canadians are like the Trailer Park Boys...lol...imo, that's why some of us find it so funny! We love 'em...:)

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 02:26 PM
Dr. Phail...please...shhh...between you and me...some of my dear fellow Canadians are like the Trailer Park Boys...lol...imo, that's why some of us find it so funny! We love 'em...:)

I love them too. Alot. Ain't seen em lately tho save for an appearance on some talk show promoting a movie...I think they're not doing the show anymore. :(

I drove sedan taxi and limousine for awhile so dealt with alot of Canadians this place is LOUSY with Canadians from about October till April which made me know that example was gonna accomplish, with you at least, the total OPPOSITE of what I had hoped to illustrate cuz 9.4 out of every 10 Canadians I ever dealt with they were TOTALLY like the Trailer Park Boys with either a Rum and Coke constantly in their hand, completely confused and wearing coke bottle glasses or with no shirt on and no hint that they even OWNED a shirt....

or all of the above...at once. :(

Got to where I could spot them on the street, I'd stop and chat with them cuz I like Canadians and they'd invariably share their Rum and Coke with me. :) The only ones that wasn't exactly like the Trailer Park Boys that I ever met at least was Senior Citizens who I didn't meet many cuz they was vacationing here and wouldn't leave their condos cuz they was afraid of getting hurt and having to pay for an American hospital.....

which, I don't know, something like if they could wait to get hurt till they got back to Canada they'd get repaired for free.....made no sense to me, might to you.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 02:27 PM
Today Show Video
msnbc.com Video Player

Paladine
04-21-2010, 02:32 PM
Totally OT: Dr. Phail, we have universal healthcare! Those senior citizens and every Canadian DOES get "repaired for free" ! LOL!

Well, sort of free...we pay taxes that pay for it...but when I go to the Dr. or Hospital I pay NOTHING out of pocket...save parking.

And "nutbar" may be a Canadian term...lol...I never knew it, though...I thought others used that term, as well.

howdydodat
04-21-2010, 02:35 PM
Want to thank everyone for posting new articles and information daily. Saves time and is easier than tracking them down myself on google. One question though...

Is there an ignore feature?

One of the regular posters on here is beyond annoying. She comes off as an apologist for the bullies and I've grown sick of her posts. Especially because I hope every last one of these kids are shunned from colleges and are forced to work crappy jobs the rest of their lives. They've shown no remorse and they are no better than the Ted Bundy's of the world in my opinion.

Thanks to rest of you though!

Paladine
04-21-2010, 02:41 PM
Want to thank everyone for posting new articles and information daily. Saves time and is easier than tracking them down myself on google. One question though...

Is there an ignore feature?

One of the regular posters on here is beyond annoying. She comes off as an apologist for the bullies and I've grown sick of her posts. Especially because I hope every last one of these kids are shunned from colleges and are forced to work crappy jobs the rest of their lives. They've shown no remorse and they are no better than the Ted Bundy's of the world in my opinion.

Thanks to rest of you though!
Hey...welcome! :blowkiss:

And there IS an ignore button...but after 2 years here...I don't know where it is. I have high tolerance and am very nosy. ;) I'm sure someone with pop in and answer your question, soon. :)

It is best to ignore...rather than getting pulled into an argument, imo...I'm a peace loving Christian hippie...ain't that a mouthful?...lol...I never fight. ;)

howdydodat
04-21-2010, 02:47 PM
Hey...welcome! :blowkiss:

And there IS an ignore button...but after 2 years here...I don't know where it is, though. I have high tolerance and am very nosy. ;) I'm sure someone with pop in and answer your question, soon. :)

It is best to ignore...rather than getting pulled into an argument, imo...I'm a peace loving Christian hippie...lol...I never fight. ;)

I found it. It was under User CP and Edit Ignore.

I threw you a thank you for trying. :dance:

Should also apologize that my post came off as slightly rude to the unidentified poster but on top of disagree with her, it seems like she claims to be an expert in the field. Just saw the list of the experts at the top of the page and she isn't on it so... that's part of the reason.

Thanks again!

Paladine
04-21-2010, 02:50 PM
Yes...it's a good thing you didn't identify :)...we are an inclusive board that has many different viewpoints...we may not agree, but we try to do so with respect.
And thanks for the thanks!

OrdinaryLife
04-21-2010, 02:57 PM
I love them too. Alot. Ain't seen em lately tho save for an appearance on some talk show promoting a movie...I think they're not doing the show anymore. :(

I drove sedan taxi and limousine for awhile so dealt with alot of Canadians this place is LOUSY with Canadians from about October till April which made me know that example was gonna accomplish, with you at least, the total OPPOSITE of what I had hoped to illustrate cuz 9.4 out of every 10 Canadians I ever dealt with they were TOTALLY like the Trailer Park Boys with either a Rum and Coke constantly in their hand, completely confused and wearing coke bottle glasses or with no shirt on and no hint that they even OWNED a shirt....

or all of the above...at once. :(

Got to where I could spot them on the street, I'd stop and chat with them cuz I like Canadians and they'd invariably share their Rum and Coke with me. :) The only ones that wasn't exactly like the Trailer Park Boys that I ever met at least was Senior Citizens who I didn't meet many cuz they was vacationing here and wouldn't leave their condos cuz they was afraid of getting hurt and having to pay for an American hospital.....

which, I don't know, something like if they could wait to get hurt till they got back to Canada they'd get repaired for free.....made no sense to me, might to you.

Sometimes, being Politically Correct isn't such a bad thing. Particularly when there are those around us (not naming any names :rolleyes:) that have much Canadian genes about them that they are proud of. Goes for the Irish, too. Just sharing my humble opinion...

BTW, your writing is so very familiar. Not sure why, but it is....

imvho

howdydodat
04-21-2010, 03:05 PM
Not sure where to post this and I apologize if it has already been posted.

Mom Says Phoebe Prince Case Saved Daughter's Life (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20362439,00.html)

Thought it was a nice story. Not that another girl is being bullied but that her parents were able to see the warning signs thanks to Phoebe Prince. It's also amazing that the girls parents don't care about losing their house and being broke if that's what it takes to protect their daughter. Definitely not fair but it makes me happy that there are parents out there like that.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 03:10 PM
Not sure where to post this and I apologize if it has already been posted.
Mom Says Phoebe Prince Case Saved Daughter's Life (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20362439,00.html)

Thought it was a nice story. Not that another girl is being bullied but that her parents were able to see the warning signs thanks to Phoebe Prince. It's also amazing that the girls parents don't care about losing their house and being broke if that's what it takes to protect their daughter. Definitely not fair but it makes me happy that there are parents out there like that.
You post it JUST like you did! :) Thanks! Links can also be posted on our media links thread...I've already posted this one, there...personally, I usually post links here and the media thread for those who want to just pop in and avoid the chatter to get news...

Paladine
04-21-2010, 04:19 PM
Phoebe Prince and the people who mercilessly picked on her were not children. They were teenagers, young adults fully aware of the impact their actions had. They knew it wasn’t O.K. to call her an Irish whore. They knew that throwing cans at her as she walked home would be frowned upon. Most importantly, they knew after Phoebe went home on Jan. 14 and committed suicide, it had something to do with their immature, callous bullying.
Recently, six teenagers and three juvenile students were charged in connection with her death. As widely reported, teachers and peers saw Phoebe being harassed and did nothing to help, these bystanders essentially sentenced Phoebe to a grim end simply by turning a blind eye.


"As a penance for the Phoebe Princes, Kitty Genoveses and anyone else who has ever died because someone else didn’t think it was their place to speak up, we need to make the transition from useless bystanders to empathetic citizens. Because if someone had spoken up for Phoebe, if someone had called the police when they heard Kitty scream, they would both still be alive.
Great piece but there's an error in the "9"...I believe we have determined the 3 juveniles are included in the 6...

http://www.eldononline.org/views/standing-up-for-everyone-1.1375978

Paladine
04-21-2010, 04:56 PM
I'm reading about a university policy with envy...too bad kids seem to have to be over 18 to get harassment taken seriously...

Point Park University has many resources for students feeling harassed or having trouble adjusting to college life, both of which are issues that university workers take very seriously.

As the director of judicial affairs, Amy Cooper pointed out in an e-mail interview that Point Park addresses student harassment in the student handbook on page 118. It is defined in Section B as anything that “threatens, intimidates, coerces or uses physical force in a manner that causes a person to be fearful of physical harm or endangers the health or safety of a person.”

Cooper advises students to contact the Department of Public Safety in the event of harassment.

“Public Safety is always present on campus and gets the students the immediate resources or help that they may need, as well as take photographs, get witness statements and write a report,” Cooper said. “The director of Public Safety will work with the student and guide them through the process of getting outside police involved. This is a decision that the alleged victim would need to make.”

The procedure, as Cooper outlined, begins with the initial statement given by the alleged victim and then a gathering of any additional evidence including text messages, e-mails and even Facebook messages or posts.

In some cases, a no contact order is given to both parties, prohibiting them from all contact, “[including] by electronic means or through other people.” If the parties do not honor this order, they could be charged with a separate offense.


“Depending on the severity of the situation,” Cooper said, “the consequences could range from a warning to suspension [or] expulsion from the university.”
If only Phoebe had that kind of help...

http://www.pointparkglobe.com/features/recent-suicide-incites-harassment-policies-within-education-systems-1.1376031

thebear14
04-21-2010, 05:27 PM
I'm reading about a university policy with envy...too bad kids seem to have to be over 18to get harassment taken seriously...

If only Phoebe had that kind of help...

http://www.pointparkglobe.com/features/recent-suicide-incites-harassment-policies-within-education-systems-1.1376031

sadly, from my own personal experience, that is not always the case.

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 05:39 PM
Today Show Video
msnbc.com Video Player (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/36684580#36684580)

OMG I ain't even watching that thing...

cuz I am scared to death they are trying to make that book report on Cutting a cry for help.....

please tell me they are not doing that....

my audio is down anyway, backup pooter....would be largely pointless to watch it anyway but I swear if they are implying that that book report was a distress call I am totally PISSED because they know nothing and....

oh god :(

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 05:41 PM
Not sure where to post this and I apologize if it has already been posted.

Mom Says Phoebe Prince Case Saved Daughter's Life (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20362439,00.html)

Thought it was a nice story. Not that another girl is being bullied but that her parents were able to see the warning signs thanks to Phoebe Prince. It's also amazing that the girls parents don't care about losing their house and being broke if that's what it takes to protect their daughter. Definitely not fair but it makes me happy that there are parents out there like that.

Right ON... :)

I'll take another INFINITY worth of THOSE STORIES...

thass where we need to go!!!

AndyRyan
04-21-2010, 05:54 PM
OMG I ain't even watching that thing...

cuz I am scared to death they are trying to make that book report on Cutting a cry for help.....

please tell me they are not doing that....

my audio is down anyway, backup pooter....would be largely pointless to watch it anyway but I swear if they are implying that that book report was a distress call I am totally PISSED because they know nothing and....

oh god :(

Thats exactly what they are trying to do. APES! Have seen it popping up all over the net and not referencing the fact that it is a book report, so infuriating.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 05:56 PM
OMG I ain't even watching that thing...

cuz I am scared to death they are trying to make that book report on Cutting a cry for help.....[/B][B]please tell me they are not doing that....

my audio is down anyway, backup pooter....would be largely pointless to watch it anyway but I swear if they are implying that that book report was a distress call I am totally PISSED because they know nothing and....

oh god :(
I haven't watched it, yet, either...that's exactly what they're doing. It's just too maddening, they are twisting her words, imo, to sensationalize the story. As a result, the bullies and their supporters are hopping on that bandwagon to say, "SEE?"

It's deceptive...it's inaccurate...it's unfounded...it's shameful...and I'm pissed.

IMO

Laurence
04-21-2010, 06:08 PM
I haven't watched it, yet, either...that's exactly what they're doing. It's just too maddening, they are twisting her words, imo, to sensationalize the story. As a result, the bullies and their supporters are hopping on that bandwagon to say, "SEE?"

It's deceptive...it's inaccurate...it's unfounded...it's shameful...and I'm pissed.

IMO

Just get ready for more. We're going to get this all summer long.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 06:19 PM
In My Dream...

Darby O'Brien would come out tomorrow with a statement from the Family, lawyer approved, of course. He would explain it was a book report , not a diary, and even give the quote from WWLP to show how the media has been twisting facts...and twisted Phoebe's words. He would be indignant...he would remind all how he asked early on for the Bullies not be tried in the public but to let the Justice system do it's job. He would then say he didn't THINK he would have to ask for the same courtesy be provided to victim...but it has become painfully obvious he must. He would then ask media to respect Phoebe's privacy, as he has asked for the bullies. He would turn on his heels and leave...the media would hang their heads in shame...

Ohhh...if only...:banghead:

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 06:47 PM
Thats exactly what they are trying to do. APES! Have seen it popping up all over the net and not referencing the fact that it is a book report, so infuriating.

No.

If you needed proof that the media has gone beyond the brink....

there it is.

this is just sad. :(

That was in OCTOBER friggin EARLY I THINK what the ninth?????

the 15th????

Who is this???? ABC??? They have just set an new all-time low.

I SORTA like this though (NOT ALOT THO) because this was ANOTHER thing mentioned that the lawyers were gonna push...this theory that this report was a cry for help.....so there goes the air outta THAT BALOON MAYBE????

All I can say, that would keep ABC here from being absolute baboons here is if the Autopsy showed evidence of cutting....


they have to have that right????

How else could they put this out like this??????!!???



what cusswords can I call ABC here and not get another timeout???

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 06:51 PM
In My Dream...

Darby O'Brien would come out tomorrow with a statement from the Family, lawyer approved, of course.

Darby has passed out from shock. I guarantee if ABC don't got some autopsy results to back this Darby is gonna SPAZZ!!!!

You know what????

On second thought....what if "we" (Team Pheebz) just let this dangle out there and crash and burn on its own???

Might that not lend us POWER down the road in the sense that we ain't gonna "play" the defense's game...let them set the "rules"???? and other future dumbass speculation they churn up would, as result of our restraint and unwillingness to respond to the STOOPID....

kinda also be viewed with an eye of SKEPTICISM????

MAN we gonna get our money's worth out of lawyer TODAY PALADINE!!! :)

Page that lawyer NOW!!!

We may have to sedate Darby....

quick.

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 06:58 PM
Sometimes, being Politically Correct isn't such a bad thing. Particularly when there are those around us (not naming any names :rolleyes:) that have much Canadian genes about them that they are proud of. Goes for the Irish, too. Just sharing my humble opinion...

BTW, your writing is so very familiar. Not sure why, but it is....

imvho

Any lack of political incorrectness in that post must be assigned to the Trailer Park Boys...

They corrupted me....

finished the job the Monty Python began...in my youth.

Seriously tho, I apologize for any offense....I was joking....I sincerely dig Canadians....so much so that I want to replace Mexico with CanadaSouth....have em on both sides.


and I was GLAD ya'll won that Hockey Gold. :)

Oh yeah...off topic.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 08:05 PM
Any lack of political incorrectness in that post must be assigned to the Trailer Park Boys...

They corrupted me....

finished the job the Monty Python began...in my youth.

Seriously tho, I apologize for any offense....I was joking....I sincerely dig Canadians....so much so that I want to replace Mexico with CanadaSouth....have em on both sides.


and I was GLAD ya'll won that Hockey Gold. :)

Oh yeah...off topic.That is one of the FUNNIEST posts I have ever seen here!! Wow...lol...you amuse me...I like your mind...:)

Maybe I'm just twisted, too...but not that I'm saying you are...;)

bolded by me...

Paladine
04-21-2010, 08:16 PM
Darby has passed out from shock. I guarantee if ABC don't got some autopsy results to back this Darby is gonna SPAZZ!!!!

You know what????

On second thought....what if "we" (Team Pheebz) just let this dangle out there and crash and burn on its own???

Might that not lend us POWER down the road in the sense that we ain't gonna "play" the defense's game...let them set the "rules"???? and other future dumbass speculation they churn up would, as result of our restraint and unwillingness to respond to the STOOPID....

kinda also be viewed with an eye of SKEPTICISM????

MAN we gonna get our money's worth out of lawyer TODAY PALADINE!!! :)

Page that lawyer NOW!!!

We may have to sedate Darby....

quick.
Well, I don't want to bug our lawyer too much...lol...especially not twice in one day...lol...seems needy, ya know? ;) ...imo, we don't want to look like the NEEDY Phoebe Forum...:cool:

Others are free to contact whomever they wish, of course...

And yes, the less we talk about it, probably, the better, imo. We give it oxygen. But I do think it is important to bring truth to combat the spin. I try to do that by posting links to this forum around the net, as I know others do, as well...

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 08:36 PM
Well, I don't want to bug our lawyer too much...lol...especially not twice in one day...lol...seems needy, ya know? ;) ...imo, we don't want to look like the NEEDY Phoebe Forum...:cool:

We don't?? Why not?? Blame it on me. I'm used to getting blamed for stuff usually deservedly so cuz I did it. :(

J/k of course....theres plenty of time to get the lawyer's input on whether "defense" wisdom lies in attacking Pheebz.

I wonder if this ISN'T from the defense?

This book report has been online forever...


And yes, the less we talk about it, probably, the better, imo. We give it oxygen. But I do think it is important to bring truth to combat the spin..

Totally agree on both points.

Feel even more confused than I usually do though.....for agreeing with both points.

OrdinaryLife
04-21-2010, 09:08 PM
Any lack of political incorrectness in that post must be assigned to the Trailer Park Boys...

They corrupted me....

finished the job the Monty Python began...in my youth.

Seriously tho, I apologize for any offense....I was joking....I sincerely dig Canadians....so much so that I want to replace Mexico with CanadaSouth....have em on both sides.


and I was GLAD ya'll won that Hockey Gold. :)

Oh yeah...off topic.

Just to clear something up, I'm not Canadian, but have *very* close family who are. Irish, well, that goes without saying. :) If there is going to be some team, it should be "Team Phoebe". Not "Pheebz". I think she deserves more respect, don't you? Don't mean to sound flip, but she was a victim here. I find it, if you don't mind my sharing regarding written posts, a bit insensitive. Causes me some pause when I read that. Red flag like....

As far as Monty Python, I am *very* much a fan of theirs. Never heard of the other comedy group. That said, no one can compare to MP. My heroes of comedy. Just say'in. :)

imvho

Paladine
04-21-2010, 09:09 PM
Boy...IT'S MORPHED even WORSE!

Joy Behar said Phoebe had a self mutilation problem!! NOW...Joy asked, "the cutting happened at home"...."Where was MOM?" OMG!

Paladine
04-21-2010, 09:15 PM
Some lawyer, some Family member...SOMEONE needs to step up and shut this crap down...man...I'm frustrated. Hearing that said with NO proof! They didn't even read the end of the report where Phoebe says it helped her "comprehend what people close to her" went through...nope...they JUST read the part that makes it sound more sensational, like SHE was a cutter. I'm gonna puke. I never saw such a sorry excuse for journalism! WE have higher standards HERE! HERE someone would have DEMANDED at LEAST a LINK! Gawd...

Laurence
04-21-2010, 09:22 PM
Some lawyer, some Family member...SOMEONE needs to step up and shut this crap down...man...I'm frustrated. Hearing that said with NO proof! They didn't even read the end of the report where Phoebe says it helped her "comprehend what people close to her" went through...nope...they JUST read the part that makes it sound more sensational. I'm gonna puke. I never saw such a sorry excuse for journalism! WE have higher standards HERE! HERE someone would have DEMANDED at LEAST a LINK! Gawd...

We're not trying for ratings here... I think.

And while they are blowing this stupid essay all out of proportion based on the very LITTLE facts that we know... the more long term damage gets done to Phoebe's reputation. Because these big media sites/shows are NOT going to come back tomorrow even IF an actual Prince family member or representative comes out and denounces this stuff.

Lord knows what the media is going to do when details (or alleged details) of the stat rape charges come out. It will be a stampede to sensationalism no matter what the details are. After all, we've all read the essay and can see EXACTLY how they are cutting bits for a headline.

It's going to get worse.:banghead:

Paladine
04-22-2010, 12:14 AM
New insights into Phoebe Prince's final days
Reporter: Bullies were "unrepentant"
http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/new-insight-into-phoebe-princes-final-days-20100421

Paladine
04-22-2010, 12:20 AM
Dr. Phail...I like your posts. How many times do I need to tell you that? ;)

Hurry back...:) And check your pm's...

Lou Cyper
04-22-2010, 02:22 AM
They simply must have info from the autopsy. Right???

They wouldn't do this........otherwise......I mean without physical EVIDENCE to back this UP.....

right??????



This is what I keep thinking, it's easily refutable. This kind of thing really grinds my gears.

"Oh she was a depressed emo cutter, it was bound to happen". Righty-ho.. :banghead:

She had System of a Down on her iPod, surprised they're not coming out saying she was an anarchist.

AndyRyan
04-22-2010, 04:56 AM
Oh Dr Phail, please don't leave I have come to love your posts, they are honest and very entertaining and insightful. Also I can tell you that the volcano cloud has changed direction at the moment so there are plenty of flights leaving Ireland for the US as we speak, would love to hop on one but sadly have to work.

thebear14
04-22-2010, 08:50 AM
This is what I keep thinking, it's easily refutable. This kind of thing really grinds my gears.

"Oh she was a depressed emo cutter, it was bound to happen". Righty-ho.. :banghead:

She had System of a Down on her iPod, surprised they're not coming out saying she was an anarchist.

oh I'm sure that will happen soon. "see, it's okay she was bullied, she was an emo cutter devil worshiper who liked boys"

Paladine
04-22-2010, 11:11 AM
Phoebe bullied in Ireland, SHHS was notified...
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/phoebe-prince-was-bullied-in-ireland-too-91797484.html

Paladine
04-22-2010, 11:13 AM
Vigil being held tonight in Michigan for Phoebe

People will gather Thursday night in Marshall to hold a candlelight vigil for a Massachusetts girl who killed herself after being bullied for several months.

They're asking students and others in the community to take “Phoebe's Pledge," promising not to bully others and to treat them with dignity and respect
http://www.wwmt.com/articles/vigil-1375477-marshall-bullied.html

Paladine
04-22-2010, 12:48 PM
Maureen has the BEST and SMARTEST comment on MASSLIVE, IMO! LOL! :) She's responding about Phoebe reading and doing a book report on cutting...

Y'know who I'm worried about?
by MaureenN, 4/21/10 17:35 ET
Re: God Help me.....all of the by MaureenN, 4/21/10
The person who wrote the book about cutting. If Phoebe writing a book report about that book is indication that she was suicidal, can you imagine how messed up the person was who actually wrote the book? I hope s/he is getting support & therapy.
http://www.masslive.com/forums/southhadley/index.ssf

Paladine
04-22-2010, 01:15 PM
Principal Dan Smith told the town THIS in February...WHAT punishment did Phoebe's tormentors get for all the hell she went through? 1 was suspended for 1 day...

High School Principal Dan Smith reviewed the school’s policy with the crowd. When a student comes forward saying he or she has been bullied or has a problem, Smith and two other administrators sit down the with student and get the facts, he said. They then proceed with an "informal investigation." Depending on each circumstance, various consequences are looked at. Smith said they look to see if mediation between the individuals will help and the parents of those involved are called. Consequences range from a warning to expulsion in front of the school committee to taking criminal action, depending on the situation. Other consequences include detention, Saturday detention, social activities or clubs, external suspension, short-term suspension, medium suspension which lasts between 20 and 25 days and finally long term suspension.
This is the towns newsletter from February...it has much more...
http://www.townreminderonline.com/012910reminder.pdf

Paladine
04-22-2010, 04:06 PM
Litterbox got credit at Slate! Good for SK...
They are also talking about her book report, again...but this time it's more accurate!

What is clear is that Phoebe was thinking about her family as well as her peers in the months before her death. Lynch writes that for most of her life, Phoebe lived with both of her parents in a hamlet on the coast in County Clare, "in a picturesque house at the back of the cemetery" facing the ocean. But then her parents separated. When Phoebe, her mother, and her younger sister moved to South Hadley, her father and three older siblings stayed behind. Lynch says Phoebe missed her father; I've heard the same thing from people in South Hadley who knew her.

You can feel her wistfulness and the distance between father and daughter in an essay Phoebe wrote for her English class on Oct. 15, three months before her death. (It's online because the blogger The Litterbox, who reports that he found Phoebe's blog on the South Hadley High server, posted it in March.) She's describing "today's values" in "an impersonal electronic society." She writes,...

http://www.slate.com/id/2251645/

shefner
04-22-2010, 05:10 PM
Its really difficult for me to accept that the person who wrote these English papers could kill herself. She seems very "in touch" with her emotions and her family, even if her father was in Ireland. I'm trying to imagine what she was thinking in those final moments...what happened to make suicide seem like the only option for her? Why would she do this when a visit with her father was so near?
I'm suspicious....

Paladine
04-22-2010, 05:59 PM
Its really difficult for me to accept that the person who wrote these English papers could kill herself. She seems very "in touch" with her emotions and her family, even if her father was in Ireland. I'm trying to imagine what she was thinking in those final moments...what happened to make suicide seem like the only option for her? Why would she do this when a visit with her father was so near?
I'm suspicious....
Me, too, shefner. I hate to admit it, though, it makes me feel like everyone thinks I'm nuts. I have to follow my gut, and try and answer the questions I have. Many people in the past have stood up to those who thought they wore tin foil hats...and just sometimes those aluminum lovin' people are right.

And what if, in the 1,000,000th chance there is...something isn't as it appears, as we're told? I'm completely willing to appear nuts for a couple of months while exploring this if there's any chance to right a wrong for Phoebe...I have no pride, that way. Just a conscience that doesn't let me rest.

concentric
04-22-2010, 06:23 PM
Have you ever heard that saying: Beauty can be a curse? Not only was Phoebe a beauty externally; she possessed an inner beauty or creativity, which exhibits itself in her writings. I would bet that she also had charm, a lovely voice and was a caring person. In truth, she couldn't help but to be extraordinary in a very callous and coarse American society and most particular teenage American society. Boys would be drawn to her. Girls who were admired possibly for their physical beauty or ability to be trendy would be filled with envy, and instead of choosing to understand or to learn from such a person, chose to destroy her.

Envy, and that is evil.

shefner
04-22-2010, 06:44 PM
Phoebe had experienced ongoing abuse and had even gone so far as to describe it unbearable. But she did bear it. Something had to happen, something extraordinary, to cause her to go home and kill herself without any warning to anyone.

AstuteLearner8
04-22-2010, 07:09 PM
Phoebe had experienced ongoing abuse and had even gone so far as to describe it unbearable. But she did bear it. Something had to happen, something extraordinary, to cause her to go home and kill herself without any warning to anyone.

To me since most teenagers are still going through puberty and major changes, maybe her brain could not cope with the consequences of suicide. Adults have better understanding of the consequences of suicide. I think when Ashley Longe threw the can at her, maybe her emotions overtook her and she then did the deed. :twocents:

Oh and Phoebe reminds me of my friend, who is an internalist. My friend usually suffers a lot of pain, but you can't really tell whether she is hurting mainly because she doesn't express her pain that often.

I would love to elaborate on these thoughts but right now I have no time maybe later:(.

Oh and yesterday while I had free time I surfed the blog of her English teacher and came across this dated from April 4 2010. Has this been posted before?


It's been the kind of day that's evocative of summer. Balmy temperatures, neighbors operating lawn-cutting machines. The smell of burning leaves and twigs from a nearby brush fire. I spent much of the day outdoors, patching a divot in the driveway, assembling a shade umbrella for the back porch, and wiping off the deck chairs and table. Physical tasks to quell a restive mind.

A conglomerate of national and international media gathers outside my high school as a DA's investigation into a student's suicide yields charges and arraignment hearings. A school community desperately tries to heal while an impassioned public calls for heads to roll. Slick and self-righteous media figures feign compassion as they grasp at half-truths and call for justice.

It's the story du jour, the outrage of the moment, the latest flaming spectacle. Somewhere under the media light lies nuance and truth. Yet the cameras and microphones pick up simplistic anecdotes, condensed for the masses into 30-second digestible bites. All flash and sensation. Emotion and conviction. We know. We know. We're hundreds of miles away, yet we know. We'll give you your objects of ire. See where our finger points. We're infallible. Omniscience is our coxswain.

Despite the media's barrage, life goes on. Students come to class ready to learn. Their resilience is remarkable. Is learning just a convenient distraction, or is it the nature of the teenage mind to be elastic and malleable, always seeking to absorb a new experience and perspective as world view is created inside expanding neurons?

Existential thoughts color day-to-day interactions. Justice, redemption, remuneration, repudiation. Reactions, accusations, justifications, recalculation.

Next week will bring arraignments and pleas. A community braces. A nation - and a world - awaits.

http://bgenglish.blogspot.com/2010/04/restive-times.html

Paladine
04-22-2010, 07:16 PM
I don't think it's been posted here...thanks! :)
Personally, I have seen it, at SK's, I think...

concentric
04-22-2010, 07:36 PM
Phoebe had experienced ongoing abuse and had even gone so far as to describe it unbearable. But she did bear it. Something had to happen, something extraordinary, to cause her to go home and kill herself without any warning to anyone.

Are you thinking she was pregnant?

Paladine
04-22-2010, 07:47 PM
Are you thinking she was pregnant?
Well, that would be easy to know. The autopsy should show that.

Paladine
04-22-2010, 08:30 PM
This one is priceless...

One of the essays is all about cutting, also known as self-mutilation. It’s a response to a book by Steven Levenkron. But, in it Phoebe writes “…it’s not about suicide in most cases. It’s about trying to transfer the pain from emotional to physical pain which is a lot easier to deal with…” Phoebe never says she’s cut herself. But, she did say “it helped me comprehend what people close to me have gone through.”

A Local Moms opinion...I've never quoted a 'local mom' before....lol...;) But I like what she says...

We asked a local mom to read the essay and tell us what she thinks about it. She said "I would think this would be a red flag for a teacher."


In the other essay, Phoebe complains about Facebook and Twitter and asks the question “where have today’s values gone?” According to District Attorney Elizabeth Schiebel, Facebook was used to torment Phoebe.


We asked Tom Kokonowski, a Northampton attorney, if he thinks these essays could be used to help or hurt the accused bullies in court. He said "These, by themselves, to me are simply a 15-year-old expressing some sort of pain." But, he said they could be a springboard for further investigation. If coupled with stronger evidence, he said they could be useful for the defense."How could this be used by the defense? Oh! She cuts so they are ALLOWED to stalk her? She cuts so they CAN have sex with a minor? She cuts so they can scream obscenities at her in class? Boy...people who cut better lock themselves away...

Does anyone else see how stupid that sounds? It's no defense, imo.

And...a LAUGH...SORT OF, if it wasn't so stunning...GUSSIE at his finest!! Who writes his stuff? Letterman? ;)

We also brought these essays to South Hadley’s superintendent Gus Sayer. He said he didn’t know anything about them. When we asked him whether this should have been a red flag for Phoebe's teacher, he said "I don't know. I don't even know who her teachers are."
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/a-closer-look-at-phoebe-prince's-essays

shefner
04-23-2010, 12:53 AM
Are you thinking she was pregnant?


No....I'm thinking she might have been surprised by a visitor. Why did she quit texting with her friend? Did the last text allude to suicide? Wouldn't she be thinking, "What time will my sister be home? What will this do to my dad?" Even as upset as she was at that time, I think these are thoughts she would consider.
Of course, I'm sure alibis have been investigated and confirmed.

jjenny
04-23-2010, 02:55 AM
No....I'm thinking she might have been surprised by a visitor. Why did she quit texting with her friend? Did the last text allude to suicide? Wouldn't she be thinking, "What time will my sister be home? What will this do to my dad?" Even as upset as she was at that time, I think these are thoughts she would consider.
Of course, I'm sure alibis have been investigated and confirmed.

Alibis for what? As far as I can tell, never, at any time, this was considered anything other than suicide.
No one is going to check alibis in case of a suicide.

Lou Cyper
04-23-2010, 04:41 AM
A Local Moms opinion...I've never quoted a 'local mom' before....lol...;) But I like what she says...

Who needs psychologists when we have people in the street. Even more qualified if they've given birth. Mothers would be perfect to ask. :crazy:

The thing is, even if she was someone who was emotionally unstable, then it makes their crime more heinous IMO. They've targeted someone obviously vulnerable which would make it even more cowardly.

How more outraged are people when a mugging occurs and the victim is elderly or disabled?

TrashersFan
04-23-2010, 08:57 AM
The court documents (I am looking at the one regarding Sharon Velasquez) state that the last outgoing text message on Phoebe's phone was 2:48pm. The call to 911 was 4:55pm.

That leaves 2 hours and 7 min during which she constructed her plan and killed herself.

In the comments of one of the MassLive articles, at least one person states that there had been specific comments to Phoebe from these bullies to "go hang yourself".

I think that Phoebe felt as if the only way to bring an end to the torment was to finally give them what they said that the wanted. If she had killed herself by any way other than hanging, I would be astounded in fact.

shefner
04-23-2010, 09:57 AM
Alibis for what? As far as I can tell, never, at any time, this was considered anything other than suicide.
No one is going to check alibis in case of a suicide.

Surely at some points the youths who were arrested were questioned about their activities on the day on Phoebe's suicide. "Where did you go after school? Did you see Phoebe again that day? Did you call or text her? Did you hit her with an empty can? Who else was in the car with you? Exactly what did you say to her? Where did you go after you last saw her?"
Just because no authority has mentioned publicly anything other than suicide does it mean that other options have not been considered. If they have not, then I would be disappointed.

TrashersFan
04-23-2010, 10:16 AM
If it was anything besides a suicide then there would have to be fingerprints on the noose (scarf) that she used. There is no mention of any forced entry into the house either. These kids are clearly not the sharpest tacks in the drawer, so it does not fit for them to have had an elaborate murder plot.

The bullies were getting way too much entertainment out of their daily abuse of Phoebe. They probably looked forward to getting some more laughs out of shouting "whore" (how sophisticated and oooh how clever) at her.

I am betting that they were not brave enough to kill her with their bare hands, merely sadistic enough to torment and browbeat her multiple times each day until she took her own life.

shefner
04-23-2010, 10:16 AM
The court documents (I am looking at the one regarding Sharon Velasquez) state that the last outgoing text message on Phoebe's phone was 2:48pm. The call to 911 was 4:55pm.

That leaves 2 hours and 7 min during which she constructed her plan and killed herself.

In the comments of one of the MassLive articles, at least one person states that there had been specific comments to Phoebe from these bullies to "go hang yourself".

I think that Phoebe felt as if the only way to bring an end to the torment was to finally give them what they said that the wanted. If she had killed herself by any way other than hanging, I would be astounded in fact.


Two hours and 7 minutes is a very long time for a person who is distraught to carry out her plan. I do not recall a reference to her ever saying, "Maybe I should just hang myself and give them what they want." Perhaps she did and I've forgotten. Most times, people who are suicidal issue some type of "cry for help," or warning. In this case, I think we see a girl who had plans for the future....she wanted to wear the pretty dress and red shoes to the dance, she had a date to that same dance, she had a visit to her father coming up and she was looking forward to it, she even had her phone on the charger when she died.
My own father was a minister and we moved quite a bit. I attended 5 high schools in 5 different towns. I can relate to the frustration of trying to adjust to new places and people.

TrashersFan
04-23-2010, 10:19 AM
Two hours and 7 minutes is a very long time for a person who is distraught to carry out her plan. I do not recall a reference to her ever saying, "Maybe I should just hang myself and give them what they want." Perhaps she did and I've forgotten.


Here is the comment from someone who sounds as if he/she knew her:
http://connect.masslive.com/user/MBee20/index.html

"Phoebe was such a great girl and it was her first year not only in high school but in the states and this is how we welcomed her. This is poor girl was call horrible names and told by another student to actually go and hang herself and she had things thrown had her(soda cans and bottles with soda still in them). Also her 11 year old sister was the one who found her dead, so please pray for her sister because that has to be the worst thing in the world fro that little girl to go through.
To those bullies, who know exactly who they are and so do the rest of us, I dont know how you can live with yourselves knowing that you made this nice and intelligent young lady believe that killing herself was easier and less painful than living a daily life.
RIP Phoebe! You are gone but will never be forgotten!"

That was written on Jan 18. Interesting that the poster has that lone post over on MassLive.

Harley1971
04-23-2010, 10:55 AM
I hope I am doing this right, first post and all. Apologies if it's not.

I am wondering if anyone has any information about the parents of the bullies. If the parents hold high positions in the community, that would make some sense as to why the school administrators were reluctant to hold the bullies accountable.

Love this site and have been reading it for a long time. I've become too interested in this sad case to stay in hiding any longer.

Paladine
04-23-2010, 12:00 PM
I hope I am doing this right, first post and all. Apologies if it's not.

I am wondering if anyone has any information about the parents of the bullies. If the parents hold high positions in the community, that would make some sense as to why the school administrators were reluctant to hold the bullies accountable.

Love this site and have been reading it for a long time. I've become too interested in this sad case to stay in hiding any longer.

I'm SO happy you aren't hiding any longer! :blowkiss: It has felt lonely on this forum, at times...

We have explored families to a certain degree...but there is more to be done, there, imo. We have just begun. This is a small town with alot of intertwining families...any info anyone can provide would be helpful.

ALL from my reading....I leave this here for websleuthing purposes...

The Mulveyhills seem to be quite prominent, from my reading. The Mom, Cydney, ran a column on the parents corner website for the school, organizing the football game food, drinks, get togethers. The Dad is Scot, 1 T or 2 TT's not sure...
http://shadleyfootball.vnsports.com/news/

The Nareys, well, Ray is deceased and Susan is Kayla's Mother. He was purportedly a firefighter who passed in 2008.
(links on 1st thread)

Charon-Velequez, nothing yet.

Renauds, Dad died in 2007, Mom is Kristen, Austin reportedly lives on his own, and no family showed up at his OUI arraignment.

Longe's...nothing

Mullins...this came to me from a family member, but for the purposes here, because I don't have links, please take it as 'rumor' for websleuthing purposes

Mom, Jennifer Mullins (aka Jenn) and Dad, Mead McCoy, not together for a long time.

I have more on them but don't feel I should post it without links...

Paladine
04-23-2010, 12:05 PM
Here is the comment from someone who sounds as if he/she knew her:
http://connect.masslive.com/user/MBee20/index.html

"Phoebe was such a great girl and it was her first year not only in high school but in the states and this is how we welcomed her. This is poor girl was call horrible names and told by another student to actually go and hang herself and she had things thrown had her(soda cans and bottles with soda still in them). Also her 11 year old sister was the one who found her dead, so please pray for her sister because that has to be the worst thing in the world fro that little girl to go through.
To those bullies, who know exactly who they are and so do the rest of us, I dont know how you can live with yourselves knowing that you made this nice and intelligent young lady believe that killing herself was easier and less painful than living a daily life.
RIP Phoebe! You are gone but will never be forgotten!"

That was written on Jan 18. Interesting that the poster has that lone post over on MassLive.
Food for thought: I have heard many rumors from many sources that she was told to hang herself. But I have never heard one rumor from 1 source that Phoebe SAID she wanted to hang herself.

Laurence
04-23-2010, 12:07 PM
It has felt lonely on this forum, at times...

We're in another news dead zone right now. The next court date is May 5th, so there will at least be those news reports to on it talk about. But for the moment there's not much besides reading the sniping over on the Mass Live forums.

Paladine
04-23-2010, 12:12 PM
Boy...No wonder they were SO happy at the cotillion. Phoebe wasn't there. Imagine...if Phoebe had shown up? All dolled up...in her pretty new dress...getting all the boys attention. Bet they didn't want THAT to happen. Hence..the BIG smiles.

IMO

Paladine
04-23-2010, 12:18 PM
We're in another news dead zone right now. The next court date is May 5th, so there will at least be those news reports to on it talk about. But for the moment there's not much besides reading the sniping over on the Mass Live forums.
Hey, Lawrence! :blowkiss:

Yeah...it's slow...but if we blink we might miss something important...;)

Paladine
04-23-2010, 12:26 PM
The court documents (I am looking at the one regarding Sharon Velasquez) state that the last outgoing text message on Phoebe's phone was 2:48pm. The call to 911 was 4:55pm.

That leaves 2 hours and 7 min during which she constructed her plan and killed herself.

In the comments of one of the MassLive articles, at least one person states that there had been specific comments to Phoebe from these bullies to "go hang yourself".

I think that Phoebe felt as if the only way to bring an end to the torment was to finally give them what they said that the wanted. If she had killed herself by any way other than hanging, I would be astounded in fact.
But if you check time of death it's listed as between 2:48 to 4:30, it's in the DA's statement...so, did she really have that much time?

Harley1971
04-23-2010, 12:41 PM
Thanks Paladine :blowkiss:

I wish there was more new news about this. I search every day for updates somewhere, anywhere...such a sad story, she had so much potential and was failed by so many people. Tragic. :(

Paladine
04-23-2010, 12:55 PM
IMO Boy, I want to hit something, and I'm a non-violent bystander. Imagine how Phoebe's Family feels? This author is jumping on the bandwagon of publicity...

They BETTER show the END sentence in her book report where she SAYS the book helped her to "comprehend what people close to me" have gone through. But I bet they won't, I bet they'll proclaim Phoebe was a cutter. I am sickened.

Watch out cutters, and anyone else who has problems...it's open season! You are no longer protected under the law...according to this bullcrap...you can be harassed, stalked and raped!
And we’ve been following the tragic story of Phoebe Prince, a 15-year-old girl who hanged herself in January after enduring what prosecutors described as months of bullying. The teens who have been accused of bullying Prince are charged with civil rights violations. But defense attorneys are expected to use new evidence from Prince’s journal to argue that the teenage girl may have had psychological issues before the bullying. Apparently, she noted “cutting,” in her journal and referenced to the book, “Cutting,” by Dr. Steven Levenkron about understand and overcoming self-mutilation.

Tonight Anderson talks to Dr. Levenkron about why cutting and self-mutilation has become a growing trend among adolescents, teens and – especially – girls. Lisa Bloom also weighs in on how this new evidence may affect the case.
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/23/morning-buzz-assisted-suicide-goes-to-court/

Harley1971
04-23-2010, 12:57 PM
Boy...No wonder they were SO happy at the cotillion. Phoebe wasn't there. Imagine...if Phoebe had shown up? All dolled up...in her pretty new dress...getting all the boys attention. Bet they didn't want THAT to happen. Hence..the BIG smiles.

IMO

I'm almost thinking they WANTED her to show up...why would they want to miss that opportunity to bully her some more, in front of her date and on a night she really wanted to have fun?
I guess they didn't really care, either way. They had "accomplished" their mission. :(

Harley1971
04-23-2010, 01:06 PM
Boy, I want to hit something, and I'm a non-violent bystander. Imagine how Phoebe's Family feels? This author is jumping on the bandwagon of publicity...

They BETTER show the END sentence in her book report where she SAYS the book helped her to "comprehend what people close to me" have gone through. But I bet they won't, I bet they'll proclaim Phoebe was a cutter. I am sickened.

Watch out cutters, and anyone else who has problems...it's open season! You are no longer protected under the law...according to this bullcrap...you can be harassed, stalked and raped!
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/23/morning-buzz-assisted-suicide-goes-to-court/

I get sick to my stomach when I think about what the defense is going to try and do to Phoebe. She was such a beautiful, caring, peaceful person, they are going to really have to dig deep to destroy her. Ugh. "She was a cutter, she was mentally unstable", "she was a slut", "she smoked", "she was bullied back in Ireland"...blah blah blah. No matter what kind of person Phoebe was, she didn't deserve what those horrible kids did to her. It's going to be ugly.

MaureenN
04-23-2010, 01:08 PM
Letters to the editor on Masslive re: 'Where were the parents of these bullies' - http://www.masslive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/04/letters_south_hadley_adults_se.html

I'm wanting to reply to the first commenter, but am still examining my feelings about it. See, I agree, that the bullies were failed by society (and their families/parents), too. I just don't think that that means that they should not accept the consequences of their actions. I feel sorry for them, that they never learned how to feel simple pride in acting with dignity and grace towards others. But, I still think that the best thing for them, right now, is to learn from the natural consequences of their illegal choices. Hopefully, at some point, they will feel the immorality of their choices, too, to the point where they choose to change & take pride in their lives.

McKEire
04-23-2010, 01:16 PM
The Nareys, well, Ray is deceased and Susan is Kayla's Mother. He was purportedly a firefighter who passed in 2008.
(links on 1st thread)



Not sure if this is important, and I can't find the link, but I believe Kayla's mother was a teacher at West Springfield High School

And Dan Smith is a resident of Holyoke, not South Hadley, maybe that's why he doesn't care what happens after they leave.

Paladine
04-23-2010, 01:32 PM
Not sure if this is important, and I can't find the link, but I believe Kayla's mother was a teacher at West Springfield High School

And Dan Smith is a resident of Holyoke, not South Hadley, maybe that's why he doesn't care what happens after they leave.
That IS VERY interesting. A fellow teacher. Hmm...Thanks!

We''ll link hunt ;) Is Dan Smiths brother Micheal Smith? The one the middle school is named after? The former Superintendent of Schools? I read rumor he was but have no link, yet, either...

I have to go out for a bit but I'll be back later...:)

Harley1971
04-23-2010, 01:56 PM
Letters to the editor on Masslive re: 'Where were the parents of these bullies' - http://www.masslive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/04/letters_south_hadley_adults_se.html

I'm wanting to reply to the first commenter, but am still examining my feelings about it. See, I agree, that the bullies were failed by society (and their families/parents), too. I just don't think that that means that they should not accept the consequences of their actions. I feel sorry for them, that they never learned how to feel simple pride in acting with dignity and grace towards others. But, I still think that the best thing for them, right now, is to learn from the natural consequences of their illegal choices. Hopefully, at some point, they will feel the immorality of their choices, too, to the point where they choose to change & take pride in their lives.

I am a big fan of "old enough to know better". Which these kids were. I am not sure that all of their parents knew how they behaved at school - except for Sharon Chanon Velazquez's mom, she knew her daughter was suspended. All I can say about this, is teenagers are sneaky little things. I was teased in school, but my parents never knew. I was able to hide it from them, I didn't want them to know, I was embarrassed. I think that some of these bullies might have been able to get away with it without their parents knowing. And that is where the school administration should be held accountable. If these kids had been punished and their parents informed of how they were torturing this girl, their parents would have known. Then I would hold some responsibility on the parents. I just wonder if they knew that their little darlings turned into big monsters at school...??

Paladine
04-23-2010, 02:01 PM
Great point, Harley...I'm not sure the administration even told most parents. I recall rumor, just after the indictments, when it bacame know 3 we're still in school, that the parents lawyers we're involved. Now, maybe that's why the other kids we're never suspended or expelled...because the parents we're never, ever notified?

Now..I gotta go...I had sent my Daughter out to buy a new dress for a formal and gave her my bank card. She accidently showed my bank card at the bank, she was supposed to use an ATM...and they confiscated it! I have to go and get another...grrr...;)

MaureenN
04-23-2010, 02:10 PM
Being notified of their kids' behavior by the schools would definitely be a good thing. And, I know teens can be sneaky... that's why parents need to be diligent even after their kids hit the teen years. :-)

So much of this happened on the internet & via text messages. I still hold the parents responsible for not parenting their kids, 24/7, even if that means checking in with their teachers & school admin on their own. Doesn't mean I don't *also* hold the kids responsible for their own actions, too.

Harley1971
04-23-2010, 02:25 PM
Being notified of their kids' behavior by the schools would definitely be a good thing. And, I know teens can be sneaky... that's why parents need to be diligent even after their kids hit the teen years. :-)

So much of this happened on the internet & via text messages. I still hold the parents responsible for not parenting their kids, 24/7, even if that means checking in with their teachers & school admin on their own. Doesn't mean I don't *also* hold the kids responsible for their own actions, too.

I agree, the parents could have been way more involved in their kid's lives. If I had a teenager, you bet I would be monitoring their internet usage and text messages.
Maybe their parents thought they were good kids. Maybe their parents relied on the school to let them know if their kids were having behavior issues. My point is that the school administrators KNEW she was being bullied. We don't know for sure if all of the bullies' parents knew. :)

McKEire
04-23-2010, 05:21 PM
That IS VERY interesting. A fellow teacher. Hmm...Thanks!

We''ll link hunt ;) Is Dan Smiths brother Micheal Smith? The one the middle school is named after? The former Superintendent of Schools? I read rumor he was but have no link, yet, either...

I have to go out for a bit but I'll be back later...:)

yes Dan Smith is the brother of the fomer Superintendent, but I did not know that the middle school was named after him.
No link for that, I knew the family about 10 years ago when the brother was Superintendent and Dan Smith was a teacher

thebear14
04-23-2010, 05:39 PM
Boy...No wonder they were SO happy at the cotillion. Phoebe wasn't there. Imagine...if Phoebe had shown up? All dolled up...in her pretty new dress...getting all the boys attention. Bet they didn't want THAT to happen. Hence..the BIG smiles.

IMO

It was probably a relief for them. Phoebe, hands down, would have been the most beautiful one there, on the inside and out. I didn't even know the girl and I can say that with certainty.

This case kills me.

Paladine
04-23-2010, 05:48 PM
yes Dan Smith is the brother of the fomer Superintendent, but I did not know that the middle school was named after him.
No link for that, I knew the family about 10 years ago when the brother was Superintendent and Dan Smith was a teacher
Thanks a bunch :)

Well, that brings it full circle. I read on a board they were brothers, that as a result of Micheal having been super, he had connections that Dan could use to protect him.

There is a Micheal E. Smith Middle School in SH. When was it built/named and what is Dan's bro's middle name, are 2 questions that come to mind... a guy who gets a school named after him has some power, imo.
http://smithmiddle.shschools.net/

Paladine
04-23-2010, 05:55 PM
Being notified of their kids' behavior by the schools would definitely be a good thing. And, I know teens can be sneaky... that's why parents need to be diligent even after their kids hit the teen years. :-)

So much of this happened on the internet & via text messages. I still hold the parents responsible for not parenting their kids, 24/7, even if that means checking in with their teachers & school admin on their own. Doesn't mean I don't *also* hold the kids responsible for their own actions, too.
I agree wholeheartedly, Maureen. I check my Daughter's FB, daily. I check FB updates and privacy settings....and friends pictures and comments, too...if I see something, I comment. She may not like it at times but it shows others that an adult is watching...

This does not relieve parents of responsibility, either. We should know what our kids are doing without having to be told, imo. But I do fault the school if these parents were never informed.

t93
04-23-2010, 06:47 PM
A investigation is airing on E! right now.

Paladine
04-23-2010, 08:48 PM
A investigation is airing on E! right now.
Darn...missed it, t93. Could you do a little recap, pretty please?

Laurence
04-23-2010, 09:00 PM
It was probably a relief for them. Phoebe, hands down, would have been the most beautiful one there, on the inside and out. I didn't even know the girl and I can say that with certainty.

This case kills me.

Plus they thought they had gotten away with it. If they'd been afraid of punishment for what they'd done to her there would have been none of the boasting (!) about it on Facebook and elsewhere.

Laurence
04-23-2010, 09:02 PM
I am a big fan of "old enough to know better". Which these kids were. I am not sure that all of their parents knew how they behaved at school - except for Sharon Chanon Velazquez's mom, she knew her daughter was suspended.

And you don't get suspended for just a little name calling.

t93
04-23-2010, 09:06 PM
Basically it was a pretty short piece, touching on her moving from Ireland in 2009 and being harassed by upperclassmen for dating someone popular. A recounting of the day she killed herself. Not anything new. A lot of students condemning the bullies. The story they spent the most time on was a young man who was harassed for 4 years by being called "f*g or gay". He dropped out, got his GED, and got therapy. His parents said had they sent him back one more day he would have probably been dead. He won a lawsuit against the school for gender discrimination. I am sure this was a famous case but this was the first I heard of it. It is called "E" Investigates: Bullying. It will reair tomorrow morning at 10:00 AM central, Sunday at 2:00 PM if you can catch it.

thebear14
04-23-2010, 09:15 PM
Plus they thought they had gotten away with it. If they'd been afraid of punishment for what they'd done to her there would have been none of the boasting (!) about it on Facebook and elsewhere.

yeah seriously. If I said so much as one mean thing to someone and he/she took his/her life...I would lock myself away in shame and regret and probably have to seek therapy forever. These kids tortured her for months, told her to kill herself, and when she did continued to trash talk her and party two days later. I can't even express anymore thoughts I have about that right now :furious: :banghead:

daisy7
04-23-2010, 09:41 PM
The threads should be topic specific and we should all try and stay on topic as much as possible.
Because there were general discussion threads open, there is confusion where to post things.
If we keep the threads more focused that confusion will disappear.
If you have a thread called The Smiths it doesn't tell anyone what belongs on it.

if you have a thought about something, look and see if it is being discussed. if it is ,bump that thread and continue discussion there. Don't start a thread just to ask a single yes or no question. Look and see if your question fits into a topic. if you have a new topic idea and it is not being discussed go ahead and start a new thread. be sure to search first.

Please don't post the same thing on 2 threads. I know it may have overlap and can go on two threads, but please pick the best one or we have parallel discussions going on.

Think about being able to retirve information at trial or as new developments come up. It is hard to isolate discussion in a general discussion or broad topic thread, but it is easy to find a specific topic and update it with information.

You will get into a groove before you know it and follow the lead of posters that have been here a but longer.They can be very helpful and provide guidance if you are unsure.

Thank you! the goal is to be able to discuss every aspect of the case and devote threads to those apsects.

Wanted to let everyone know I will be closing the gen. discussion thread in a few days and will not be starting a new one.

PLEASE start topic-specific threads!! Just think about the topics you are discussing on the gen. thread, and start a new thread on that topic. A perfect example is the cutting, which Paladine started a thread for (thanks, Paladine!).

It may take a little while to get used to not having a gen. discussion thread, but it will definitely be better as threads will be focused on one topic.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Paladine
04-23-2010, 11:41 PM
Some kids from Amherst speak out openly about bullying, I understand Amerst is relatively close to SH. Kids move between towns, might give a peek into the culture, imo...

T. P., an 11th-grader at Amherst Regional High School, was "bullied pretty bad" at another school before she came here, she said.

"Everyone spread rumors about me and everyone ganged up on me, and said if I didn't do a certain thing I would get in trouble," she told interviewer Tess Domb Sadof on a recent edition of "Student News" on Amherst Community Television, a student-produced news program. "People told me to go die and people threatened to kill me. So it was pretty difficult. I was crying a lot. If it continued, I probably would have died. It was a struggle."
I hope this girl succeeds and all of her dreams come true...and the bullies live to see it.
http://www.amherstbulletin.com/story/id/170384/

daisy7
04-26-2010, 10:02 AM
Wanted to let everyone know I will be closing the gen. discussion thread in a few days and will not be starting a new one.

PLEASE start topic-specific threads!! Just think about the topics you are discussing on the gen. thread, and start a new thread on that topic. A perfect example is the cutting, which Paladine started a thread for (thanks, Paladine!).

It may take a little while to get used to not having a gen. discussion thread, but it will definitely be better as threads will be focused on one topic.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Closing this thread now.