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View Full Version : Teen Arraigned in Phoebe Prince Case Arrested for Drunken Driving



Laurence
04-19-2010, 03:55 PM
Look who was out and about this weekend...

http://www.holyokepd.org/documents/ArrestReportLog04-18-10.pdf




Arrestee: RENAUD, AUSTIN Race/Sex/Age: 18

Time of Arrest: 3:01 AM

Address: 185 GARLAND SPRINGFIELD, MA

Arrest Location: 2099 NORTHAMPTON ST
W/M
Charge Ch. 90 Sect. 24 OUI-LIQUOR

Paladine
04-19-2010, 04:21 PM
HOLYOKE, Mass. (WGGB) -- Austin Renaud, who is one of six teenagers facing charges in connection with the alleged bullying of Phoebe Prince, has been arrested early Sunday for drunken driving.
According to the HHolyoke Police Department arrest log, Renaud, 18, of 185 Garland St., Springfield, was arrested shortly after 3 a.m. on Northampton Street.

According to MassLive.com, Renaud had failed a breathalyzer test at the Holyoke Police Station after being arrested on suspicion of drunken driving and was released after posting $40 bail. Renaud has been scheduled to be arraigned on a charge of operating under the influence of liquor Tuesday in Holyoke District Court.
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12336448

MaureenN
04-19-2010, 04:34 PM
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12336448

I wonder who was in the car with him...

Paladine
04-19-2010, 04:36 PM
According to police reports, an officer spotted Renaud’s vehicle stopped along Route 5 at about 3 a.m. Sunday morning with the hazard lights on. Renaud handed the officer his driver’s license without being asked and said he had a flat tire. The officer noticed that Renaud’s eyes were bloodshot, his speech was slurred and that he had an odor of alcohol on his breath, the report states.

If Renaud or another of the adult defendants commits a crime while free on personal recognizance, the district attorney's office can request a criminal colloquoy. In that case, the defendant would be called to court and a judge would have the option of imposing bail or ordering the defendant held without right to bail.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/austin_renaud_of_springfield_c.html

Paladine
04-19-2010, 04:41 PM
I wonder who was in the car with him...
Good question. Wonder if they release police reports and would they indicate who...?

Phoenixfla
04-19-2010, 04:50 PM
More at link:
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12336448

Phoenixfla
04-19-2010, 04:52 PM
Another Article:

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/austin_renaud_of_springfield_c.html

SNIP:
"According to police reports, an officer spotted Renaud’s vehicle stopped along Route 5 at about 3 a.m. Sunday morning with the hazard lights on. Renaud handed the officer his driver’s license without being asked and said he had a flat tire. The officer noticed that Renaud’s eyes were bloodshot, his speech was slurred and that he had an odor of alcohol on his breath, the report states."

$40 BAIL!@!#!@##$!@$!@

"If Renaud or another of the adult defendants commits a crime while free on personal recognizance, the district attorney's office can request a criminal colloquoy. In that case, the defendant would be called to court and a judge would have the option of imposing bail or ordering the defendant held without right to bail."

raeann
04-19-2010, 04:57 PM
I wonder why his parents would even allow him to be out of the house at ALL unsupervised right now....let alone drinking AND out at 3 am!!!!!! If, god forbid, any child under my care would ever get into any kind of trouble with the law---they would be out only for sports or chaperoned school events, they would be getting the best grades of their life, and they would darn well be so tired from doing community service projects that they would have begged to be allowed to get to sleep by midnight!!!!!

jmo

MaureenN
04-19-2010, 05:13 PM
I wonder why his parents would even allow him to be out of the house at ALL unsupervised right now....let alone drinking AND out at 3 am!!!!!! If, god forbid, any child under my care would ever get into any kind of trouble with the law---they would be out only for sports or chaperoned school events, they would be getting the best grades of their life, and they would darn well be so tired from doing community service projects that they would have begged to be allowed to get to sleep by midnight!!!!!

jmo

He's 18yo. He might not live at home anymore.

Paladine
04-19-2010, 05:35 PM
Last link said he was on route 5, this one says, in Holyoke...SO...on route 5, in Holyoke, I take it?

He is scheduled to be arraigned in Holyoke District Court on Tuesday
http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/teenager-in-prince-case-arrested-for-drunk-driving-20100419

Paladine
04-19-2010, 05:49 PM
Police arrest report for Austin Renaud DUI
http://www.holyokepd.org/documents/ArrestReportLog04-18-10.pdf

Paladine
04-19-2010, 06:42 PM
A Holyoke police dispatcher said the police chief would only be available for comment Tuesday. http://wbztv.com/wireapnewsma/Teen.i...2.1643113.html

raeann
04-19-2010, 07:19 PM
He's 18yo. He might not live at home anymore.

IIRC...a number of FB posts etc. refer to him being with his family, etc. BUT, even so, his attorney should have made absolutely sure that this kid KNEW that his behavior must be beyond reproach for the next few months. This kid, out of all of them, was likely to get the least blame and punishment. It was widely reported that he did not participate in the bullying incidents. His supporters seemed to have the most reasonable grounds to back him up, now that is all blown out of the water.

jmoo

thebear14
04-19-2010, 07:20 PM
IIRC...a number of FB posts etc. refer to him being with his family, etc. BUT, even so, his attorney should have made absolutely sure that this kid KNEW that his behavior must be beyond reproach for the next few months. This kid, out of all of them, was likely to get the least blame and punishment. It was widely reported that he did not participate in the bullying incidents. His supporters seemed to have the most reasonable grounds to back him up, now that is all blown out of the water.

jmoo

yeppp...most definitely. He is definitely in huge trouble with his lawyer, at the least ;)

jjenny
04-19-2010, 08:32 PM
IIRC...a number of FB posts etc. refer to him being with his family, etc. BUT, even so, his attorney should have made absolutely sure that this kid KNEW that his behavior must be beyond reproach for the next few months. This kid, out of all of them, was likely to get the least blame and punishment. It was widely reported that he did not participate in the bullying incidents. His supporters seemed to have the most reasonable grounds to back him up, now that is all blown out of the water.

jmoo

I would not call being charged with statutory rape the "least of trouble." That charge could get someone up to life in prison in MA.

Lou Cyper
04-20-2010, 02:32 AM
Lucky he didn't help end someone elses life.

mitzi
04-20-2010, 07:18 AM
I wonder why his parents would even allow him to be out of the house at ALL unsupervised right now....let alone drinking AND out at 3 am!!!!!! If, god forbid, any child under my care would ever get into any kind of trouble with the law---they would be out only for sports or chaperoned school events, they would be getting the best grades of their life, and they would darn well be so tired from doing community service projects that they would have begged to be allowed to get to sleep by midnight!!!!!

jmo

ITA! And if he was my child, he wouldn't have access to a car. :furious:

Paladine
04-20-2010, 10:35 AM
Austin Renaud, 18, was in Holyoke District Court on Tuesday. He was released on personal recognizance and given an 8 p.m. to 7 a.m. curfew. The student was also ordered to stay away from drugs and alcohol and submit to random testing.
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO140406/

Paladine
04-20-2010, 10:42 AM
VIDEO: Austin Renauds lawyer talks about arrest...I have not listened, no speakers, right now...anyone care to give a synopsis of the video, feel free...;) I tried to attach Renuads photo but I wonder if someone with better skills would be so kind and post it on our photo thread...

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/renauds-lawyer-to-speak-about-arrest

Paladine
04-20-2010, 10:54 AM
Renaud, 18, of 185 Garland St., Springfield, was arrested by Holyoke police early Sunday morning after they reportedly found him in his car by the side of Route 5 with bloodshot eyes and alcohol on his breath.

Renaud is charged with statutory rape in Hampshire Superior Court in the Prince case.

Prince, 15, hanged herself Jan. 14 after what investigators say was months of harassment by several classmates at South Hadley High School.

Springfield lawyer Terrence Dunphy, who is representing Renaud in the Prince case, also appeared as his attorney Tuesday. Dunphy waived the reading of the charge, and asked that an innocent plea be entered.

Judge Mark Mason scheduled a pretrial conference for June 11.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/austin_renaud_defendant_in_pho.html

Paladine
04-20-2010, 11:07 AM
I wonder if Austins conscience may be getting to him...if it is, I hope he comes clean, for his sake.

He's the only one not charged with harassing and/or stalking Phoebe. Maybe he does have a heart.

Paladine
04-20-2010, 11:16 AM
This quote is from the AP...it really gives the impression to me that Renaud bullied, too. I've seen no proof or even rumor of that. (that comment about him laughing, by his sister, aside)

Renaud has pleaded not guilty to statutory rape in the bullying case. He's among six teens charged in what prosecutors called the "unrelenting" bullying of Phoebe Prince at South Hadley High School.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jtSfPUlJn7oUv4nT-KF2Kqs7J6mQD9F6RID00

Paladine
04-20-2010, 11:25 AM
Holyoke Police Sgt. Larry Cournoyer told 22News that Renaud was arrested at the corner of Northampton Street and Elmwood Avenue around 3 a.m. on Sunday. Sgt. Cournoyer said that his car was damaged and officers could tell he had been drinking because he had bloodshot eyes and was swaying back and forth. Renaud told police he struck a curb and he allegedly said that the officers might know of him, because his name had been in the news recently. He was arrested and later released on $40 bail.
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/teen-arrested-in-bullying-case-arrested

raeann
04-20-2010, 11:25 AM
I would not call being charged with statutory rape the "least of trouble." That charge could get someone up to life in prison in MA.

According to this source which lists the actual laws and penalties by state, the penalty in MA is 2.5 to 3 years. I tend to give credence to sources which show evidence of having done actual research to support their statements of facts. Numerous other sources, also, indicate that the average of actually imposed penalties vary by the age of the defendant, with the harsher penalties reserved for those over the age of 21 involved with someone who is under the age of consent.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm

Paladine
04-20-2010, 11:26 AM
great link, raeann, thanks...

Paladine
04-20-2010, 11:30 AM
One thing...if I were Austins Mom, I'd also forbid him from seeing Flannery Mullins. IMO, she's a jealous nutcase in need of some serious counseling. It was Phoebe this time...let any woman get near "her man"...God help them...

raeann
04-20-2010, 11:36 AM
I would not call being charged with statutory rape the "least of trouble." That charge could get someone up to life in prison in MA.

Here is a snip from another source that reports on the actual use of the law in MA and the length of convictions, plus the fact that the stat. rape law is often used in cases of forcible rape in order to have an increased rate of conviction.

snip
"Those individuals sentenced under this statute received an average sentence of 57.6 months. A critical point to note is that these statistics include convictions for forcible rape and not merely statutory rape. Prosecutors have informed MFI staff that cases of suspected forcible rape are often tried under the statutory rape provisions (M.G.L. 265.23), owing to the comparative ease of gaining a conviction under the statutory rape law, "

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Statutory%20Rape%20%20%20When%20Adults%20Prey%20Se xually%20Upon%20Children%20MA.pdf

edit to add.....this is a rather long pdf....the most pertinent information begins on page 9

dcbrent
04-20-2010, 11:52 AM
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/teen-arrested-in-bullying-case-arrested

This is who Mullins and Velasquez got all territorial over? A real catch.

Paladine
04-20-2010, 12:05 PM
This is who Mullins and Velasquez got all territorial over? A real catch.
That's it, imo. It's not about him, it could have been any man/boy. It's about their insecurity, aggressiveness and sense of entitlement, their joy at causing pain in others, imo. Moms and Dads of boys in the area better watch out for these two...

Paladine
04-20-2010, 12:09 PM
Ohh, seeing raeanns link...if this was forcible rape or she was manipulated/coerced in any way...well...all compassion I feel will be squashed. Fast.

raeann
04-20-2010, 12:14 PM
Ohh, seeing raeanns link...if this was forcible rape or she was manipulated/coerced in any way...well...all compassion I feel will be squashed. Fast.

Since there are no affidavits published yet, it is hard to know what angle the DA is coming from on this.....However, either way, according to statistics, they are not facing any great amount of time in prison, if any at all. This might put a dent in their college plans for next year, but any illusion of a long sentence seems to be out of the question.

jmoo

Paladine
04-20-2010, 12:19 PM
A comment left on an article, Austins Dad died in 2007? Kayla Nareys Dad, Ray, passed away, too, I think it was 2008, link on 2nd thread. I'm going to look for a link to this obit, anyone else finds it, please post...

Monday, September 10, 2007: SOUTH HADLEY - Daniel C. Renaud, 39, beloved son of Ronald and Susan Renaud of St. Augustine, Fl, loving father of Austin Renaud, loving husband of Kristen Renaud, beloved brother of Michael Renaud of Georgia and Cheryl ( Steven) Cavette of Florida passed away 9/03/07.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/austin_renaud_defendant_in_pho.html

ETA: I also read rumor that Kaylas Dad was a firefighter, no link, yet...anyone have one? Interesting to me because of the close relationship I've found between police and firefighters.

Laurence
04-20-2010, 12:22 PM
Since there are no affidavits published yet, it is hard to know what angle the DA is coming from on this.....However, either way, according to statistics, they are not facing any great amount of time in prison, if any at all. This might put a dent in their college plans for next year, but any illusion of a long sentence seems to be out of the question.

jmoo

Would still put them on those lists, which if there was coercion in any way they would entirely deserve.

Paladine
04-20-2010, 12:28 PM
Would still put them on those lists, which if there was coercion in any way they would entirely deserve.
That's what I'm afraid of. Coercion.

A reminder...Maureen posted a link somewhere to news orgs (Boston Globe, I think?) to pressure them to release all the dox. The more that email, the merrier. ;)

adnoid
04-20-2010, 12:31 PM
According to this source which lists the actual laws and penalties by state, the penalty in MA is 2.5 to 3 years. I tend to give credence to sources which show evidence of having done actual research to support their statements of facts. Numerous other sources, also, indicate that the average of actually imposed penalties vary by the age of the defendant, with the harsher penalties reserved for those over the age of 21 involved with someone who is under the age of consent.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm

Thank you for answering this point yet again.

Paladine
04-20-2010, 12:50 PM
The Renaud home in South Hadley is sold to "Certificate Holde Cwabs" in July/07...what is that? And the purported obit says Daniel C. Renaud died Sept/07...alot of change for a teen, I must say.

52 Boynton Ave.
South Hadley, MA 01075
Amount: $138,399
Buyer: Certificate Holde Cwabs
Seller: Daniel C. Renaud
Date: 07/20/07
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:qfYtCV8IKr4J:businesswest.com/pdf/real_estate_sep03_07.pdf+%22Daniel+C.+Renaud%22&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgVeTENeP9JcmKNlpwANRg-Mtfn5YWFwMyS5n2DDM_ysS3pKvDbjolpTTvM06PY8WsPJugN41 HJBL9E0_1AQ5iR-pf1sNP-s81SpYedlswFoAS7vTgRbqEam16DxTMWf-8Iw1WN&sig=AHIEtbTMfLbxX8r9Y-_4QP9J2oCVKmofHw

Paladine
04-20-2010, 01:00 PM
Found this on "Certificate Holde Cwabs"...so, was his house foreclosed? And then his Dad dies 2 months later? And is that why he now lives in Springfield?
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/cou...ase_id-227064/
http://www.secinfo.com/drjtj.7Gm.htm

Laurence
04-20-2010, 01:19 PM
Found this on "Certificate Holde Cwabs"...so, was his house foreclosed? And then his Dad dies 2 months later? And is that why he now lives in Springfield?
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/cou...ase_id-227064/
http://www.secinfo.com/drjtj.7Gm.htm

A search on Certificate Holder Cwabs turns up nothing but foreclosure documents, so that's a good guess.

thebear14
04-20-2010, 01:20 PM
Ohh, seeing raeanns link...if this was forcible rape or she was manipulated/coerced in any way...well...all compassion I feel will be squashed. Fast.


oh yeah. There are very few things I can absolutely under no circumstance see both sides to and this is one of them. If it was forcible...which we don't know yet so I don't want to jump to conclusions...but if it was.oh man...I don't care how long he gets put away or what happens to him while he's there. Then if it WAS forcible and these girls are calling her these names? holy crap - I cannot even begin to express the rage that's silently brewing in me. if that was the case - I don't care what happens to those girls either. I know we don't know yet so again, not trying to jump to conclusions. just needed to get that off my chest. :)

Paladine
04-20-2010, 01:42 PM
A search on Certificate Holder Cwabs turns up nothing but foreclosure documents, so that's a good guess.
What a stroke of bad luck. His house forecloses then his Dad dies, 2 months later? I wonder, now, what his Dad died from...

Paladine
04-20-2010, 02:31 PM
According to Cruz, Renaud said he was heading northbound from Southampton when he thought he hit something like a curb. Renaud was brought back to the police station, where he failed additional sobriety tests. He was charged with operating under the influence and was released on $40 bail.
Lucky it wasn't a person...
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/04/teen_in_bullyin.html?comments=all#readerComm

thebear14
04-20-2010, 02:35 PM
This is who Mullins and Velasquez got all territorial over? A real catch.

neither one of them are real catches, in my eyes :rolleyes:

Paladine
04-20-2010, 02:47 PM
Austin Renauds mugshot and arrest was just plastered on MSNBC...and not a very happy looking mugshot...you gotta see it.

Paladine
04-20-2010, 03:39 PM
Here comes WWLP to the rescue...I just don't get it. Go ahead, slap me upside the head.

Why aren't locals outraged? Why are they not asking why he wasn't charged with underage drinking? He was driving drunk! He hit a curb! It could have been a person...

Most people 22News spoke to about it had already heard about this alleged drunk driving incident and they said they were saddened by the entire situation.

Austin Renaud only had one charge against him in the Phoebe Prince case, he was accused of having sex with Phoebe Prince and as a result was charged with statutory rape.

He wasn't, however, charged with bullying Phoebe Prince.

Many people did feel like he got lumped into this group of so called bullies, but now some people are questioning his judgment.


One relative of Austin Renaud, who wanted to remain nameless, said that he wants people to know that Austin is not accused of bullying Phoebe Prince, he's just accused of having sex with her. But he did admit that "what he did was wrong."
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/local-reaction-to-renaud's-oui-charge

Paladine
04-20-2010, 04:05 PM
People REALLY need to start supervising what their kids say on the net...this is a comment from Austin, in Jan/09. This kid has some backassward priorities, imo...and a love of "drinkin" and "smokin" at 17?


01-26-2009, 12:05 PM
Replies: 76 besides bmx what else are your intrests?
Views: 1,116 Posted By AUSTIN RENAUD
girlfriend bass guitar snowboarding drinkin...

girlfriend
bass guitar
snowboarding
drinkin
smokin
work
http://thecomeupbmx.net/forum/search.php?searchid=1172689

dcbrent
04-20-2010, 04:33 PM
Here comes WWLP to the rescue...I just don't get it. Go ahead, slap me upside the head.

Why aren't locals outraged? Why are they not asking why he wasn't charged with underage drinking? He was driving drunk! He hit a curb! It could have been a person...



http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/local-reaction-to-renaud's-oui-charge

"Only" one charge against him? Thank god it was only statutory rape. I guess that makes him the "hero" of the six.

People are now questioning his judgment?

Maybe it's something in the water there.

angelmom
04-20-2010, 05:16 PM
According to this source which lists the actual laws and penalties by state, the penalty in MA is 2.5 to 3 years. I tend to give credence to sources which show evidence of having done actual research to support their statements of facts. Numerous other sources, also, indicate that the average of actually imposed penalties vary by the age of the defendant, with the harsher penalties reserved for those over the age of 21 involved with someone who is under the age of consent.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm

Actually, that link is dated 2003.

According to this one (dated January, 2010), he could get life. If I am reading this right, there aren't any mandatory minimums or maximums.

http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/subject/about/sex.html


Whoever unlawfully has sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse, and abuses a child under 16 years of age, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for life or for any term of years or, except as otherwise provided, for any term in a jail or house of correction.

AND

Commonwealth v. Elder, 389 Mass. 743 (1983). "Consent is not a defense to a charge of statutory rape."

Commonwealth v. Knap, 412 Mass. 712 (1992). "The only elements the Commonwealth must prove are (1) sexual or unnatural sexual intercourse with (2) a child under sixteen years of age"

Paladine
04-20-2010, 05:38 PM
Holyoke police chief Anthony Scott told 22News with no financial implications for this boy it makes it very hard for him to take this seriously.

Chief Scott points to the fact Renaud was allegedly breaking the law just 14 days after being indicted on statutory rape charges involving Pheobe Prince.

Chief Scott said, "I believe if there was a bail and some of his parents money had been held on the condition of his release pending trial I believe he would have taken this more seriously."
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/r...ot-hurt-by-dui

Paladine
04-20-2010, 05:42 PM
There was no bail and no restrictions against the 6 on the charges against Phoebe. To me, that sends a message.

jjenny
04-20-2010, 07:58 PM
Actually, that link is dated 2003.

According to this one (dated January, 2010), he could get life. If I am reading this right, there aren't any mandatory minimums or maximums.

http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/subject/about/sex.html


Whoever unlawfully has sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse, and abuses a child under 16 years of age, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for life or for any term of years or, except as otherwise provided, for any term in a jail or house of correction.

AND

Commonwealth v. Elder, 389 Mass. 743 (1983). "Consent is not a defense to a charge of statutory rape."

Commonwealth v. Knap, 412 Mass. 712 (1992). "The only elements the Commonwealth must prove are (1) sexual or unnatural sexual intercourse with (2) a child under sixteen years of age"

Exactly. The penalty is up to life.

Paladine
04-20-2010, 08:03 PM
Accompanied only by his lawyer. No parents by his side, 18 year old Austin Renaud pleaded not guilty to charges of driving under the influence in Holyoke District Court. Renaud was arrested by Holyoke police around 3 o'clock Sunday morning after they found him in his car on the side of Route 5. Police say Renaud's car was damaged, he had bloodshot eyes, and had a blood alcohol of twice the legal limit
http://www.cbs3springfield.com/news/local/91643789.html

raeann
04-20-2010, 08:04 PM
Actually, that link is dated 2003.

According to this one (dated January, 2010), he could get life. If I am reading this right, there aren't any mandatory minimums or maximums.

http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/subject/about/sex.html


Whoever unlawfully has sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse, and abuses a child under 16 years of age, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for life or for any term of years or, except as otherwise provided, for any term in a jail or house of correction.

AND

Commonwealth v. Elder, 389 Mass. 743 (1983). "Consent is not a defense to a charge of statutory rape."

Commonwealth v. Knap, 412 Mass. 712 (1992). "The only elements the Commonwealth must prove are (1) sexual or unnatural sexual intercourse with (2) a child under sixteen years of age"

The maximum of life is applicable under certain circumstances. After doing rather thorough research, I can find no record of ANY incident of a teen relationship resulting in anything NEAR life in prison-----EVER. If anyone else finds such a report, I would appreciate the link.

What the maximum sentence might be is not what is GIVEN on a regular basis. If you refer to the second post & link (post #27), you will see that the average sentence imposed in MA---even in cases of forcible rape of a minor---is LESS THAN 5 YEARS.

jjenny
04-20-2010, 08:07 PM
According to this source which lists the actual laws and penalties by state, the penalty in MA is 2.5 to 3 years. I tend to give credence to sources which show evidence of having done actual research to support their statements of facts. Numerous other sources, also, indicate that the average of actually imposed penalties vary by the age of the defendant, with the harsher penalties reserved for those over the age of 21 involved with someone who is under the age of consent.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm

2.5 to 3 years applies to having a sex with someone under 18 who was chaste prior to having sex. Phoebe Prince was under 16. Having sex with someone under 16 can lead to a penalty up to life (regardless of whether the person under 16 was chaste prior to having sex). No required minimal term.

jjenny
04-20-2010, 08:10 PM
The maximum of life is applicable under certain circumstances. After doing rather thorough research, I can find no record of ANY incident of a teen relationship resulting in anything NEAR life in prison-----EVER. If anyone else finds such a report, I would appreciate the link.

What the maximum sentence might be is not what is GIVEN on a regular basis. If you refer to the second post & link (post #27), you will see that the average sentence imposed in MA---even in cases of forcible rape of a minor---is LESS THAN 5 YEARS.

The penalty is up to life. It can obviously vary because there is no min and max is up to life.
Thus I would not say about someone who is facing up to life in prison (however remote it might be) that this someone is not in trouble.

raeann
04-20-2010, 08:13 PM
I also tend to give credence to sources which show evidence of having done actual research to support their statements of fact.
2.5 to 3 years applies to having a sex with someone under 18 who was chaste prior to having sex. Phoebe Prince was under 16. Having sex with someone under 16 can lead to a penalty up to life. No min or max.


AND, once again, please refer to the ACTUAL average sentence given in the state of Massachusetts (link in post #27), it is less than 5 years. No one said the maximum is not written as life.....just that it is NEVER imposed in cases such as this, nor in cases much worse where force was involved.

raeann
04-20-2010, 08:15 PM
The penalty is up to life. It can obviously vary because there is no min and max is up to life.
Thus I would not say about someone who is facing up to life in prison (however remote it might be) that this someone is not in trouble.

I certainly don't recall anyone here stating that they were NOT in trouble. Just that prior to this incident, AR was in LESS trouble than some of the others. I believe there are numerous posts listing the charges for each, so there is no point in repeating those again.

angelmom
04-20-2010, 09:07 PM
I would not call being charged with statutory rape the "least of trouble." That charge could get someone up to life in prison in MA.


According to this source which lists the actual laws and penalties by state, the penalty in MA is 2.5 to 3 years. I tend to give credence to sources which show evidence of having done actual research to support their statements of facts. Numerous other sources, also, indicate that the average of actually imposed penalties vary by the age of the defendant, with the harsher penalties reserved for those over the age of 21 involved with someone who is under the age of consent.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm


The maximum of life is applicable under certain circumstances. After doing rather thorough research, I can find no record of ANY incident of a teen relationship resulting in anything NEAR life in prison-----EVER. If anyone else finds such a report, I would appreciate the link.

What the maximum sentence might be is not what is GIVEN on a regular basis. If you refer to the second post & link (post #27), you will see that the average sentence imposed in MA---even in cases of forcible rape of a minor---is LESS THAN 5 YEARS.

I totally agree that he will NEVER get life. I think the confusion came in when you said the penalty was 2.5 to 3 years, not the average jail time. It is true that he could get life, so is obviously in some trouble. Both statements are true.

And all I was pointing out is that the possible penalty may have been updated in the last 7 years, since you were being so cautious about your sources.

The statement in red came across as a little snarky, as if jjenny hadn't done the kind of research that you had done when she said he could get life, though in fact he can. I don't know if you meant it that way (downside of text vs. face to face conversation).

Also to add, when a case is very high profile, you just never know what a publicity seeking judge will do. Atlanta had a very famous case where a judge gave an honor student and star athlete who had never been in trouble 10 years in jail for having oral sex with a girl less than 2 years younger than himself. It took protests in the streets, famous lawyers and judges weighing in, and over 2 years for him to finally be released. It's important to note that the girl claimed from day 1 that it was consensual, and that there is a provision in the law that would have made it legal if they had had intercourse instead of him getting oral sex.

See Genarlow Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v._State_of_Georgia) for details.

raeann
04-20-2010, 10:18 PM
I totally agree that he will NEVER get life. I think the confusion came in when you said the penalty was 2.5 to 3 years, not the average jail time. It is true that he could get life, so is obviously in some trouble. Both statements are true.

And all I was pointing out is that the possible penalty may have been updated in the last 7 years, since you were being so cautious about your sources.

The statement in red came across as a little snarky, as if jjenny hadn't done the kind of research that you had done when she said he could get life, though in fact he can. I don't know if you meant it that way (downside of text vs. face to face conversation).

Also to add, when a case is very high profile, you just never know what a publicity seeking judge will do. Atlanta had a very famous case where a judge gave an honor student and star athlete who had never been in trouble 10 years in jail for having oral sex with a girl less than 2 years younger than himself. It took protests in the streets, famous lawyers and judges weighing in, and over 2 years for him to finally be released. It's important to note that the girl claimed from day 1 that it was consensual, and that there is a provision in the law that would have made it legal if they had had intercourse instead of him getting oral sex.

See Genarlow Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v._State_of_Georgia) for details.


If you review my post you will see that I did NOT put any statement in red in any of my posts. I was not referring to anyone's posts in that statement, just to the veracity of the website which had done the work of gathering information from every state and summing it up in a chart. Also, I did not say the penalty was 2.5 to 3 years, I was relating the information from the link I provided. The entire point of my posts was not to argue with any other poster, but to simply post FACTS as they are provided in various easy to find sources which give the actual time average of sentences for this type of charge.

It is unreasonable IMO to erroneously portray that these young men are facing even a slight possibility of a life sentence, when that has NEVER been done in any similar case in the entire country. Even the case reported in the post quoted was only 10 years----NOT LIFE---and those ten years caused a resounding uproar. There is not going to be a life sentence imposed in the case, IF THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY, according to legal precedent it just will never happen.

jjenny
04-20-2010, 10:49 PM
If you review my post you will see that I did NOT put any statement in red in any of my posts. I was not referring to anyone's posts in that statement, just to the veracity of the website which had done the work of gathering information from every state and summing it up in a chart. Also, I did not say the penalty was 2.5 to 3 years, I was relating the information from the link I provided. The entire point of my posts was not to argue with any other poster, but to simply post FACTS as they are provided in various easy to find sources which give the actual time average of sentences for this type of charge.

It is unreasonable IMO to erroneously portray that these young men are facing even a slight possibility of a life sentence, when that has NEVER been done in any similar case in the entire country. Even the case reported in the post quoted was only 10 years----NOT LIFE---and those ten years caused a resounding uproar. There is not going to be a life sentence imposed in the case, IF THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY, according to legal precedent it just will never happen.

The link provided by you doesn't apply to what these men are charged with. Phoebe Prince was under 16. Having sex with a chaste person under 18 (but over 16) would result in a different penalty than having sex with a person under 16 (whether chaste or not).

Paladine
04-20-2010, 10:58 PM
The maximum of life is applicable under certain circumstances. After doing rather thorough research, I can find no record of ANY incident of a teen relationship resulting in anything NEAR life in prison-----EVER. If anyone else finds such a report, I would appreciate the link.

What the maximum sentence might be is not what is GIVEN on a regular basis. If you refer to the second post & link (post #27), you will see that the average sentence imposed in MA---even in cases of forcible rape of a minor---is LESS THAN 5 YEARS.
Raeann...I don't know much about sentencing in MASS, that's why I turn to the experts. ;) I remembered this link from a MASS defense lawyer, he applauds the charges. He thinks none will serve any time in State Prison...and he's a Boston, MASS lawyer writing this on his blog. If he was too far off base, he'd look like an idiot, imo...so, I tend to believe him, myself...

Yesterday, March 29 2010, Northwestern District Attorney Elizabeth D. Scheibel announced that nine separate felony indictments have been issued against nine teenagers attending South Hadley High School, all involved in the brutal bullying campaign waged against Phoebe Prince. The felony indictments range from stalking to statutory rape. The most serious of these charges carry lengthy state prison sentences, though I doubt any of these defendants will serve time in state prison. Even though as a Boston criminal defense lawyer I practice on the other side of the legal aisle than District Attorney Scheibel, I applaud her for this unequivocal action.
With his opinion, in mind....2 or 3 yrs would seem to be a hard sentence...
http://www.legal-attorneys.info/tag/statutory-rape/

raeann
04-20-2010, 11:27 PM
Raeann...I don't know much about sentencing in MASS, that's why I turn to the experts. ;) I remembered this link from a MASS defense lawyer, he applauds the charges. He thinks none will serve any time in State Prison...and he's a Boston, MASS lawyer writing this on his blog. If he was too far off base, he'd look like an idiot, imo...so, I tend to believe him, myself...

With his opinion, in mind....2 or 3 yrs would seem to be a hard sentence...
http://www.legal-attorneys.info/tag/statutory-rape/

Thanks for the link....it is good to see an opinion from someone who is experienced in these cases on a first hand basis.



A favorite saying:

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink."

burbqueen
04-21-2010, 07:47 AM
I swear this town is situated in some sort of bizzarro land where bad is good and being decent is the kiss of death. AR was drinking underage and driving and the townies don't bat an eyelash. he was fined 40 bucks?!?!! Are we sure this city isn't in another dimension ?? I'm just so confused by the action of these people.

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 07:49 AM
One thing...if I were Austins Mom, I'd also forbid him from seeing Flannery Mullins.

IMO we could see some intensely sad revelations in regards to parents having absolutely failed with more than a few of these 6 kids...I suppose that should not surprise us...in the least, but what might is that their failure may have been due to a lack of real effort or concern on their part....with their kids....something that continues and has only grown more intense in at least 2 of these kid's situations....life takes its toll...kids get born unexpectedly, stupid begets stupid....what was just "disdain" for a kid cuz of the crimp the kid being born put into Mom's lifestyle has now become plain out hatred.

Were all to come to be known, really the "whole dirty truth" about at least 2 and maybe as many as 4 of these kids "parents" (parent singular being the actual appropriate term in some of these cases) we'd even see something approaching sympathy for the kids among these six who had, and have, really messed up parents. :(

When you hear people say "theres more to this story" thats very well part of what they're talking about....will the defense "go there" though?? raise the question of what contribution to this deal a really messed up parent made??, certainly the prosecution (one would expect) would not.

Some of you read "Jim/Roger" defend Kayla's extended family from attack by SauerKraut on The Litterbox Blog. What I took from his words was that Kayla's Mom may not have been as present within her daughter's life as a parent might be expected to be or might "usually" be....and that she kept Kayla from the Narey side of the family.

Kayla's dad died, I believe, about 2.5 or 3 years ago....I get the impression that he and Kayla's Mom were not together at the time...don't know for sure though but its been suggested to me that Kayla's Mom had run interference with Kayla's dad seeing her so thats where I got the idea that they were separated at the time of his death.

I have also read, elsewhere I think not Litterbox, that Austin's Mom is "distracted by other things in her life"...don't know what was meant by that of course but it sounds pretty bad to me.

Ashley's dad Roger....also...hmmmm just thought of that....he's Roger and the guy who was brought in as relief pitcher for "Jim" in the SauerKraut/Jim-Roger debate is also Roger....hmmmmmm how many Rogers can there be in SH???......hmmmm well whatever he flat out said on facebook that Ashley's Mom, his ex-wife was (is?) a drug user.....can't recall exactly what tense he placed his accusation in....I believe that it was present tense though.

Roger's comments were discussed in one of the threads here....most will know of those.

Sharon's Mom embarrassed herself in front of the world by telling a reporter that her daughter had merely called names back and forth on ONE occasion :woohoo: which the charging docs (joinders??) say very much otherwise....cafeteria, Latin class, attacking Phoebe without provocation on at least those 2 occasions and even being suspended for a day from school as result of the Latin Class incident where she actually pops her head INTO a classroom and verbally attacks Phoebe :loser:

What an ignorant f - oh wait...Paladine said I shouldn't cuss or I'll get hooked up with another timeout. :sick: nervous stomach. By the way how many of you guys missed me?

Hmmmm :furious: Of course Sharon's mom should have known from her daughter's suspension that it was not "just one incident" unless we are to believe that she got no details at all from the school on why her daughter was punished but I'm more comfortable with concluding that she is an idiot, just my opinion.

Point being: I am hopeful that the parents of these kids will be called to account for their contribution in raising children who, when they find a "weakness" (in this instance: timidity in the face of confrontation) within a 14/15 year old girl who just happens to be completely out of their league looks, body and intelligence wise would find themselves capable of tormenting said girl to death.

I'd like to request that the parents of these kids be be called to answer for the actions of their children bcuz I feel these are a direct outgrowth of their parenting (or lack of such)....I don't know though that any LAWYERS would benefit from oweness being cast onto the parents....MAYbe the defense might i.e: "it ain't all the kids fault cuz these kids got some really messed up parents".


The defense lawyers are gonna, under the guise of "getting the truths of this case out"......they are gonna dismantle Phoebe Prince. Whats coming....its gonna shock alot of people. They will also attack her Mom and possibly other family members, back in Ireland....its gonna get bad....only way this doesn't happen is if these cases don't go to trial and even then it still may occur in an effort to lessen the heat on the six.

I hope that the same attention to "getting out the truth" is devoted to the truths about the parents of these kids cuz, like, only so rarely does one hear anything at all about what responsibility the parents of these kids might bear for their children's actions....I am puzzled by this. I broke many windows when I was a minor, everytime people came to see my folks :( demanded that they pay for the window(s).

I never tormented anyone and told them to go hang themselves. Thats more serious than breaking a window. Did society at some point decide that parental responsibility was no longer gonna be observed? If so....I totally missed the memo about that. I thought it was still applicable.

To me parental responsibility, when a kid torments a girl to death is some thing that people need to be discussing with NEAR the same intensity as they are talking about what the school's responsibility in this is.

I am a bit peeved that this is not happening. And don't say this will take place possibly more near the "Civil Trial" phase of this cuz if what these defense layers are gonna try to do "flies" there ain't gonna be no Civil Trials...'cept maybe against the school but that'll just get settled outta court for about 500K, maybe a mil.....'nother family got 800K in Michigan.....thats about the going rate I guess for schools choosing to not protect kids.

I personally believe that the balloons the lawyers will float out there are gonna have legs, especially with the "moral compasses" on the Phoebe bandwagon, Conservative Christians are gonna fall right out their seats. Alotta other people, even liberals, are gonna have a "pause". It ain't gonna be pretty. Nearly everyone should come out of this realizing they got taken for a ride by the media, who should have just reported....like journalists are supposed to do.

This case has opened alot of eyes about the seriousness of bullying, hopefully the momentum thats been achieved to address this problem will not be stunted by some lawyers and a media that made a conscious decision to report just the aspects of a story that were gonna be most conducive to getting you to tune in, register, comment and read or buy their papers....

hopefully this case will open eyes to what journalism has become in this country. Really, Walter Cronkite would lose it on these people.

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 08:29 AM
This is who Mullins and Velasquez got all territorial over? A real catch.

Velasquez was just a "henchman" as was Longe for the other team. Look at Velasquez and Longe or spare yourself the unpleasantness of looking at them and just trust that these 2 girls truly despised everything about Phoebe Prince....hated her with every ounce of their beings.

She represented all that they were not and could never ever never ever ever be.


Phoebe could have had any boy in that school that she wanted which was not true of any of the girls that tormented her and especially untrue of Longe and Velasquez. None of those girls had any prayer of "competing" with Pheebz.

And they knew this from the very first moment they saw her.

Outta nowhere....................."Game Over."

Its little known that bullying began actually prior to the Sean incident when Phoebe was hassled for participating in class and turning in her homework on time which got her praise from a teacher. I'm not sure who was involved in that initial bullying, led to believe it was Longe but don't know for sure.

Hard to imagine a sea monster launching attack on such a fair maiden I mean...wouldn't that just draw attention to the "differences'" between them...

seems like I'd've laid low if I was Longe....like tried to draw as little attention to my hideous self as possible but Longe may not be anywhere near the sharpest tool in the shed.

Where regards "competing" with Phoebe, on any of these girl's parts...not only could they not do it but there wasn't a competition anyway....beyond the one in their heads.........the poor deluded low self esteem having savages.

Phoebe didn't want anything that was "theirs". This I got from a student: When Phoebe found out Sean and Kayla were (whatever they were, this kid used the term bf/gf) and became aware that Sean had gotten her into a situation with Kayla....Phoebe went to Kayla and said that she was sorry and Kayla said "don't worry about it". Phoebe said she wasn't gonn a see Sean no more. Longe wasn't about to let it slide.

Sean wasn't even her man. Longe's, that is.

Phoebe just wanted friends

and to have fun like any girl her age......would.

These things above make this "event" unshakably sad...whatever comes to pass...the sadness present within the merciless torment of this 14/early15 year old girl who all she wanted was to have friends......and enjoy her childhood....


that sadness is never gonna leave.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 10:25 AM
Good to see you, Dr. Phail. :)

Now, this qoute from the Boston Herald has a little more info...

Renaud was parked along the side of the road at about 3 a.m. Sunday with his hazard lights flashing when Holyoke police pulled up behind him.

Renaud told them he had a flat tire after hitting a curb, but in her report, Officer Kristin Leary wrote that he smelled of alcohol, his speech was slurred and he was swaying on his feet. He submitted to a Breathalyzer test, which showed he had a blood-alcohol content of .15, nearly twice the legal limit, the report stated.

Leary, a former South Hadley officer, asked Renaud why his name sounded familiar.

“He stated that his name is all over the paper for another incident,” she wrote.

Leary stated in her report that she had encountered Renaud in several incidents when he lived in South Hadley, but she did not elaborate. Neither Holyoke nor Eastern Hampshire District Court, which has jurisdiction over South Hadley cases, has any prior record of Renaudbeing charged as an adult. Juvenile records typically are not public
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1248801

Paladine
04-21-2010, 10:30 AM
I swear this town is situated in some sort of bizzarro land where bad is good and being decent is the kiss of death. AR was drinking underage and driving and the townies don't bat an eyelash. he was fined 40 bucks?!?!! Are we sure this city isn't in another dimension ?? I'm just so confused by the action of these people.

LOL! THANK YOU! :woohoo:

THAT'S exactly how I feel! "Bizzarro land"! So happy it's not just me...I'm Canadian, so I thought...'well, maybe...this is normal to some Americans'... But it's NOT, I'm finding...it's a relief...lol...:)

raeann
04-21-2010, 10:35 AM
Good to see you, Dr. Phail. :)

Now, this qoute from the Boston Herald has a little more info...

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1248801

You know what is really strange about that quote????? There is no such thing as a legal limit of blood alcohol for an 18 year old!

jmoo

raeann
04-21-2010, 10:38 AM
Also, O/T......but related to bullying and children attacking their peers, Michael B, the boy who was set on fire in FL returned to school today! He said he got bored being at home and playing video games!

Paladine
04-21-2010, 10:38 AM
You know what is really strange about that quote????? There is no such thing as a legal limit of blood alcohol for an 18 year old!

jmoo
In "Bizzarro land" things are different :crazy: ...there was no charge for drinking underage...just DUI...freaking amazing!

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 11:17 AM
OK...Leary is a former South Hadley cop who has "dealt with Renaud on several prior occasions" and Holyoke is a stone's throw, literally next friggin' door to South Hadley which has been embroiled for 100 days now in by far the biggest news story, possibly CRIME in the history of the area.....

.....and Leary asks Renaud why his name sounded familiar???



Lets have a car wash to earn some duckies to buy Officer Leary a Television.

Not a modern Hi-Def 1080p or Plasma but just a tube one, like, 32 inches. We should be able to get one of those for, like, 40 bucks on Craigslist....only have to wash, like, 4 cars maybe 3.5 cars.

Howz a cop next door to SH not know why "Austin Renaud" sounds familiar to her?

And people, yeah, $40 bail is absurd, an insult but be comforted in the fact that the gavel will fall on this kid.....as it does on all who are deserving....might not be here, might not be in the stat rape case but the gavel will fall on Austin Renaud.

'specially if the story about him laughing when informed of Phoebe's death is true.....lot more than a "gavel" gonna fall on him cuz the universe don't abide well a lack of compassion.

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 11:20 AM
Could it be, to charge underage drinking, the law demands a kid be seen drinking?? or caught with alcohol? Seems dumb I know but I too am wondering why no "underage drinking" charge.....maybe a OUI charge supersedes such a charge?

Gotta be an explanation as one would think that the last thing Holyoke wants is to be dragged into the mess of perceived "favoritism" or whatever....

just tossing out some ideas...I have no idea what Mass. law is on these matters.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 11:33 AM
Could it be, to charge underage drinking, the law demands a kid be seen drinking?? or caught with alcohol? Seems dumb I know but I too am wondering why no "underage drinking" charge.....maybe a OUI charge supersedes such a charge?

Gotta be an explanation as one would think that the last thing Holyoke wants is to be dragged into the mess of perceived "favoritism" or whatever....

just tossing out some ideas...I have no idea what Mass. law is on these matters.
No idea but the fact that there might have been no alcohol present is a good thought...we do have some posters that are more versed in the law. I hope they will pipe up and give us some insight on that...

Paladine
04-21-2010, 11:43 AM
I have sent a pm to one of our professional posters, a lawyer, asking about the underage drinking situation...I'll post if they respond through pm personally. But maybe they'll post. :)

raeann
04-21-2010, 12:25 PM
I do not know what the laws in MA, but here, there are two different charges that are used for underage drinking. One is a Minor in Possession charge for when they actually have alcohol in hand or on their person, in their car etc. The other is a Minor in Consumption charge for when they are identified to have a BA level, or otherwise do not pass a sobriety test. As far as I know, there are no set "levels" required, only that the officer can confirm that they have been drinking....even if it is one beer.

jmoo

adnoid
04-21-2010, 01:02 PM
No idea but the fact that there might have been no alcohol present is a good thought...we do have some posters that are more versed in the law. I hope they will pipe up and give us some insight on that...

Here in Nevada if you're under 21 you will get charged with DUI at 0.02%. If you're under 18 you will lose your license and can't get it back until you turn 18. Also, the courts here have held that you can be charged with possession of drugs based on the drugs circulating in your blood, not just in a baggie in your pocket.

Paladine
04-21-2010, 01:53 PM
I pm'ed a member who gave me some much needed guidance on this. Apparently, MASS has OUI (operating under the influence) for under 21's, that's what Renaud was charged with, he wasn't DRIVING when found by police, he had his hazzards on. If he was caught with alcohol there would/could have been another charge for alcohol but there is none mentioned anywhere in Renauds reports I've read. Here's a handy, dandy booklet to help explain OUI/DUI in MASS...SO...I was wrong...this is normal...I eat crow...;) good thing I like crow, I feel like I've been eating alot, lately...lol...;)

http://www.mass.gov/norfolkda/PDF%20Brochures/Alcohol%20Booklet.pdf

howdydodat
04-21-2010, 02:49 PM
Sigh...

What is wrong with these kids?

With pending charges, going out drinking and driving is the last thing I'd be doing.

Phoenixfla
04-21-2010, 02:54 PM
I personally believe that the balloons the lawyers will float out there are gonna have legs, especially with the "moral compasses" on the Phoebe bandwagon, Conservative Christians are gonna fall right out their seats. Alotta other people, even liberals, are gonna have a "pause". It ain't gonna be pretty. Nearly everyone should come out of this realizing they got taken for a ride by the media, who should have just reported....like journalists are supposed to do.


Could you elaborate on this? What do you mean when you say "Nearly everyone should come out of this realizing they got taken for a ride by the media" - Do you know something that you are not posting?

Paladine
04-21-2010, 03:18 PM
I read at Litterbox, from SK, that Renaud lives on his own. At 18. And he showed up to court alone...no parent or family.

I think a little responsibilty needs to be laid at the feet of his Mother. Where IS she? Where is his family?

This is the only person charged I find myself feeling a little sympathy for...

Dr. Phail
04-21-2010, 05:20 PM
Could you elaborate on this? What do you mean when you say "Nearly everyone should come out of this realizing they got taken for a ride by the media"

Nothing that is being "bandied about"....that certain of the kid's lawyers might do, where regards attacking Phoebe, seems relevant to the charges against these kids, to my knowledge anyway, beyond MAYbe the "civil rights violation with bodily harm?????" if that even is how that charge is worded and IF the bodily harm part refers to Phoebe's suicide....I think it doesn't, maybe it does....

....thats the puzzling thing to me anyway about what would be "gained" by some lawyers in (attempting a) trashing (of ) Phoebe's name...

I guess they sour the public (thus a jury???) on the victim??

Exactly HOW would this benefit their client???? I'm stumped.

This is definitely a conversation we need to have here because we all have to understand if trashing Phoebe could help the defense and if it would possibly be a "good strategy" we have to get ready cuz thats whats gonna go down.

I am no legal mind though but I see no benefit to trashing Phoebe, to the extent that they can even succeed in doing that which is far from a "given".

Even if (and I certainly don't know this to be the case...nowhere even close to that...just hypothesizing) but even if toxicology showed drugs in her system (again TOTALLY I don't know any thing of this sort and it hasn't even been suggested to me) but saying that happened and they could cast doubt on circumstances that led to her suicide....establishing such would not impact upon the FACT that these monsters terrorized her....would it???

Thats what they are charged with...RIGHT...not murdering her....

at least not yet ;) Kris is still working on that :)

.....when I said I felt some of what they might raise "would have legs" you can take that to mean that its my belief that just by getting talk stirred up about something they may succeed in distracting some people from the heinousness of what these kids did to Phoebe... IMO some would believe just from hearing something true or not....hard to disprove a negative.....and if innuendo about Pheebz having been a drug user (TRUE OR NOT) were to be placed into the public consciousness the "moral compasses" I mentioned would be right off support of The Phoebe Prince Support Train and likely also off the Getting Bullying Addressed Bandwagon which could only add up to more kids dying :(

I am trying not to even think about what the defense attorneys might resort to....just don't want people who have come to care about this girl to be surprised if they make an effort to trash Phoebe because if they do that I foresee a massive *****storm.


It was the bullying PERIOD that led to her death...

if she is NOT tormented by these demons she does not die.

So, I mean...thats why I say I don't see how trashing her is gonna help them...how Phoebe's situation would have any relevance at all to these charges.

I feel like those that DO see potential gain in blaspheming The Prince name are thinking along the lines of NO SUICIDE = NO CHARGES which may be a reasonable train of thought.....one cannot know....

but NOW that charges EXIST I am trying to tell these people that whatever (IF ANY AT ALL) character assassination can be "accomplished" DOESN'T FRIGGIN MATTER.

Irrelevant. Perhaps our legal mind can give us insight on this.....I'm prolly wrong :(

In case I am wrong and tarnishing Phoebe would be a potentially productive legal strategy....I'll paint some broad strokes momentarily of what they might "suggest" but NO WAY am I broaching "specifics" because all I have I heard from others and the only way I'd go specific with a thing I heard is if I heard it from Pheebz and that of course ain't gonna be happening...

Again, most of the reason I am concerned about the soiling Phoebe approach, as of now at least while I believe doing so would not help the accused, is that if some lawyers go the route of scandalizing Phoebe or even just succeed in causing WONDER....doubt, they will surely cause some to not be as enthusiastic as they are at this moment about getting laws in place to deal with bullying and another kid has to die bcuz friggin lawyers feel like they can "absolve" their client(s) by attempting to defame Phoebe Prince and her family when, as Paladine will be quick to point out, she is not here to defend herself and its entirely possible, heck PROBABLE that what they'll say is totally untrue or at the least well exaggerated. .

All I got is what I was told, by several parties and among these a family member of one of the accused (of bullying) or someone who said they were that.......who knows who is who they say they are....I didn't know Phoebe wish I had....I'd think if it was just a family member saying this stuff that maybe they themselves are trying their own propaganda campaign against Phoebe....but I have heard from others some of he same stuff....

The gist of it, as I have it anyway, is that they will paint her as a drug user with a history of depression, "mania" more specifically...manic depressive (I guess...that parts just a guess from me, all that was said is "history of depression") theres ruminations about a past suicide attempt though no one seems to know about such beyond a particular lawyer....abusive home life (not sure if that refers to here or before, in Ireland...gotta be Ireland...I would think anyway)....I'd imagine whatever they can possibly use, true or false, accurate or exaggerated....they will put out there.....those things there are the main things I heard that the lawyers may "use"....

By us "coming out on the other end of this feeling as though the media had taken us for a ride" I meant that they have heard, just as I have, the talk about things that might get said by whomever to try and tarnish Phoebe and they knew (know) aLOT more specifics than damn near anyone else (certainly me)....I just feel that they should have put the potential of what they may even know to be true and that has the chance to become a consideration in this matter out there rather than whatever they are dong by NOT REPORTING this....will equal alot of people getting "blindsided" by some stuff. Again....if the lawyers take the low road....

If they DO I just wanna have people who have come to care about this girl prepared SHIELDS UP in case these scoundrels take even the first step which would likely be the drug (ab)use talk.....I suspect it would start with that....also I am worried about the fervor for addressing bullying being caused to "die down" because of some lawyers talkin' trash.

My view on it is, like Paladine has said and others too, makes no difference what Phoebe's "deal" was the bullying caused her to take her life. Period end of story.


and I don't see how blaspheming Phoebe's name is gonna make a judge or jury say "OK, that makes you innocent of tormenting her" because they did it they are guilty all there is to talk about IMO is SENTENCING.


Paladine ask your legal expert if (s)he could see potential benefit to these defendants by the lawyers trashing Phoebe....

we should establish ONCE AND FOR ALL if they would be wise to take this path.

though, you know, sincerely....wisdom does not enter into the equation where Sharon's lawyer is concerned so if your legal eagle says "no there would be no wisdom in this" that'd likely equate to Sharon's attorney doing just that.

Prolly they'll be stunned at the stupidity of the question...might be an obvious thing to a legal person :)

hopefully it won't come to that....just sayin if it does don't let it catch you by surprise....

I think ya'll were pretty much already there anyway but best to be sure. :)

Paladine
04-22-2010, 01:41 AM
Well, Dr. Phail, everything I've read indicates it's a perilous strategy. I will ask though...

I think we need to remember and stress one thing...they are NOT being charged with her suicide. The jury will be asked if she was harassed or stalked. HOW or WHY she died is not relevant to these charges, from my understanding. Although, there are those who say if she didn't die, they wouldn't have been charged. I just do not see where that thinking brings us. They are charged. They are charged with stalking. Did they stalk? They are charged with harassment preventing her from attending school. Did they harass her? Seems simple, to me.

I truly feel...and hope...any negative press and spin will be quickly dissolved at trail, imo, once the FULL DEPTH of their actions become clear...

Dr. Phail
04-22-2010, 07:20 AM
So now we know 2 of these kid's parents died?

Within the last 3 years?




Like, when they were 15 years old (Austin) and 13 (Kayla)?

Dr. Phail
04-22-2010, 07:28 AM
just seems like a weird thing to me, that 2 out of 6 kids would have had their fathers die...when they were teenagers. And 2, 3 years before this whole.... can't find the word.

Seems kinda long odds, like, improbable....

2 out of 6. Thats, like, 33%. Thats high.


I wonder if they were close to their fathers?


might have to bug the lawyer again Pala.

how many questions we get in a week?

Will these be jury trials?

Dr. Phail
04-22-2010, 08:58 AM
they are NOT being charged with her suicide.

violation of civil rights resulting in bodily injury

All 5 kids have this charge. (Austin excluded of course)

how could this be nothing to do with the suicide? This relates to something not specified within the charging documents?

whats bodily injury refer to here Pala?


The jury will be asked if she was harassed or stalked. HOW or WHY she died is not relevant to these charges, from my understanding. Although, there are those who say if she didn't die, they wouldn't have been charged. I just do not see where that thinking brings us. They are charged. They are charged with stalking. Did they stalk? They are charged with harassment preventing her from attending school. Did they harass her? Seems simple, to me.

I think I get it now. It just came to me. I think.

"there are those who say if she didn't die, they wouldn't have been charged".

Could there be some Latin term that says if it can be shown that charges made that are based upon an event that occurred as result of the actions from which the charges emanated but reasonable doubt could be established that the event did not in fact happen as result of the actions......

charges are invalid.......cases dismissed.

Does that make sense?

Oh man....I almost got it, I swear....Corpus Delicti???

naw....something like that though.

Plainer English maybe: theres no previous cases (precedent) for this, these charges. Why hasn't there been previous cases?

Why were these charges brought, here.......now?

If it can be established that the reason the charges were brought is because a death resulted from the actions that the charges are founded upon then all the defense has to do is establish "reasonable doubt" that the death resulted from the actions.

right????

Simple, Chryst...if so....seems like even I could prolly "accomplish" that.

All I'd have to do is get anything in.....something that would suggest anything else may have contributed.



Like a book report.


just for example of course.



If theres no suicide these charges are not brought so just get the jury to buy that the suicide was possibly tied to factors other than just the bullying voila dismissals.

Days worth of "expert witnesses" and statistics to show no one kills themselves from bullying except for Phoebe Prince.


and, well Kristina Calco, Ryan Halligan, Corinne Wilson, Sian Yates

http://www.jaredstory.com/Sian.jpg

and too many others to mention...Hope Witsell

for some reason I keep getting compelled to mention her cuz that sush a really sad screwed up mess....

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/091202-texting-suicide-5a.small.jpg

well gettin off track of course but thats it, right?

The charges were brought because its believed that a suicide resulted from these actions so just show Phoebe's decision to take her life might have been influenced by anything other than the bullying and they walk.


go get the lawya Pala!!!!

I'm guessin here!!!! :)

I swear the Lawyer prolly don't mind as much as you think Pala....the lawyer prolly likes being helpful Pala. You're Canadian so youre, like, ultra-polite and stuff.

American might've already asked the lawyer 4 questions by now, just today Pala, and its, like, not even 6:00am.



Woulda woke the lawyer up. :(

Paladine
04-22-2010, 02:25 PM
Despite this quote, this picture of AR really looks sad to me...such a lost look in his eyes, imo...

However according to defense attorney Alan Black, who is not associated with the case, under the law Renaud could have been put in jail for 60 days as a result of the second arrest while on recognizance from the first arrest.

"There is a section of the Massachusetts General Laws that allows for a mandatory 60 days if certain conditions are met when you pick up the new case when you're out on bail or on recognizance from another case which is what happened in this situation," said Black.

So despite an arrest while being out on bail from a previous arrest, Renaud remains free.
http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=12344837

Paladine
04-22-2010, 03:39 PM
just seems like a weird thing to me, that 2 out of 6 kids would have had their fathers die...when they were teenagers. And 2, 3 years before this whole.... can't find the word.

Seems kinda long odds, like, improbable....

2 out of 6. Thats, like, 33%. Thats high.


I wonder if they were close to their fathers?


might have to bug the lawyer again Pala.

how many questions we get in a week?

Will these be jury trials?
Kaylas Dad died in 2008. So, she was around 15. Austins Dad died in 2007, he was around 15. Flannerys Mom and Dad are long divorced, or never married, her Dads last name was McCoy, I'm told. A rocky relationship, I heard from a family member...but I have no link, yet. I'm told her Mom, Jennifer, aka Jenn, is in a long term same sex marriage, if true...I would of thought that might have made her more empathetic to the pain of discrimination and harassment...and Ashley's family...well, nothing yet but rumors...
Sean seems to have the 'family of the year'...in the sense they appear to be well respected and involved in the community, imo, from my reading.
And Austin...well, I haven't seen much family support for him at all. He lives on his own and it was reported he went to court with no family present.

Paladine
04-22-2010, 03:46 PM
Dr. Phail...why don't you make a post with all your questions in it? Something simple and concise.

Then, maybe, we could go through them 1 by 1...:)

eta: remember to put it on the right thread, though...

TrashersFan
04-22-2010, 08:22 PM
Does anyone know how Renaud first met Phoebe? I don't think he was enrolled in the high school. It seems obvious that she met Mulveyhill in school, but I have not read anything to indicate where she met Austin Renaud.

Paladine
04-22-2010, 08:53 PM
Does anyone know how Renaud first met Phoebe? I don't think he was enrolled in the high school. It seems obvious that she met Mulveyhill in school, but I have not read anything to indicate where she met Austin Renaud.
Hey TrashersFan :)

I'm not sure he wasn't enrolled in the high school. He lived in Springfield. But in 2007, he lived in SH, I found the property records. He moved around the month of July/2007 and his Dad died in Sept./2007. He may have gone to SHHS. They do call them the SH6...and Austin DID drive, he could have driven to school so he wouldn't have to transfer.

Still unclear, imo...

Paladine
04-22-2010, 08:57 PM
a search of Austin and school sports teams might be a place to start...

TrashersFan
04-23-2010, 09:21 AM
Did some further digging. In the court document for Velazquez (page 4-5) it states that Renaud was an upperclassman at South Hadley.

http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/other/sharon_velazquez.pdf

So she met him at school.

Poor Phoebe. The more I read these documents, the sadder it makes me for her. It also makes me glad that Mulveyhill is not my son. He would be begging the police to lock him up for fear of the ass-kicking he would get from me!!! :banghead: :furious:

Paladine
04-23-2010, 12:38 PM
Did some further digging. In the court document for Velazquez (page 4-5) it states that Renaud was an upperclassman at South Hadley.

http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/other/sharon_velazquez.pdf

So she met him at school.

Poor Phoebe. The more I read these documents, the sadder it makes me for her. It also makes me glad that Mulveyhill is not my son. He would be begging the police to lock him up for fear of the ass-kicking he would get from me!!! :banghead: :furious:
Me, too! I'm conservative and very old fashioned, that way. My Sons BETTER NOT be out there taking advantage of young women and throwing them away like Kleenex's! I'd be arrested. Seriously. Mulveyhill was nominated as "class flirt". THAT would be my first indication.

McKEire
04-24-2010, 09:15 AM
Last link said he was on route 5, this one says, in Holyoke...SO...on route 5, in Holyoke, I take it?

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/teenager-in-prince-case-arrested-for-drunk-driving-20100419

Yes, you a correct on that. I am very surprised that he thought this would be a good idea. Holyoke (and Springfield) are the last places you want to be in the middle of the night. And for that reason, the police will stop pretty much anybody out at that time. The spot that he was found was not on the way you would get to/from south hadley or to/from springfield, so I am very curious where he was and where he got the alcohol.

Paladine
04-24-2010, 11:16 AM
Yes, you a correct on that. I am very surprised that he thought this would be a good idea. Holyoke (and Springfield) are the last places you want to be in the middle of the night. And for that reason, the police will stop pretty much anybody out at that time. The spot that he was found was not on the way you would get to/from south hadley or to/from springfield, so I am very curious where he was and where he got the alcohol.
I gotta thank you. It is so nice when locals come on the forum to post. Ya'll add SO much...:blowkiss:

No idea where he was or where he got the alcohol...but maybe someone else will pipe up. ;)

thebear14
04-25-2010, 05:38 PM
I don't think Austin's sister is the girl we thought who mentioned about her brother laughing about Phoebe killing herself and saying why she did it. I've been thinking this for a few days. One, the last names are different. I thought maybe it was just the sister kind of redoing her last name but that part always struck me. Two, the sister says on facebook that her brother dated Phoebe a few months ago when Austin & Phoebe dated sometime in December, probably only about a month before her death. Three, I've been hearing that Austin lives on his own and the sister stated that Phoebe had come over their house a few times and so she had met her. Then today on MassLive I checked over there and a reply to post number 10288 states that the girl isn't Austin's sister (http://www.masslive.com/forums/southhadley/).

Therefore there may be another guy that Phoebe dated during this time, and although he hasn't been charged with anything he seems to be as much as a tool as the other two.

Hope it's okay that I posted this here.

Paladine
04-25-2010, 07:27 PM
I don't think Austin's sister is the girl we thought who mentioned about her brother laughing about Phoebe killing herself and saying why she did it. I've been thinking this for a few days. One, the last names are different. I thought maybe it was just the sister kind of redoing her last name but that part always struck me. Two, the sister says on facebook that her brother dated Phoebe a few months ago when Austin & Phoebe dated sometime in December, probably only about a month before her death. Three, I've been hearing that Austin lives on his own and the sister stated that Phoebe had come over their house a few times and so she had met her. Then today on MassLive I checked over there and a reply to post number 10288 states that the girl isn't Austin's sister (http://www.masslive.com/forums/southhadley/).

Therefore there may be another guy that Phoebe dated during this time, and although he hasn't been charged with anything he seems to be as much as a tool as the other two.

Hope it's okay that I posted this here.
I have the screen shot of that, bear....the 'laughing' comment. She mentions Austin and Flannery by name, mentions that they had broke up and that Phoebe had been to her house. Maybe Austin didn't live on his own, then, and maybe the sister didn't have the dates right, or that Phoebe was intimate in Dec with Austin but it started in Novemeber...I'm just not convinced. I'd like to get a local to confirm or deny...it's a simple question, you'd think... :banghead:

thebear14
04-25-2010, 07:46 PM
I have the screen shot of that, bear....the 'laughing' comment. She mentions Austin and Flannery by name, mentions that they had broke up and that Phoebe had been to her house. Maybe Austin didn't live on his own, then, and maybe the sister didn't have the dates right, or that Phoebe was intimate in Dec with Austin but it started in Novemeber...I'm just not convinced. I'd like to get a local to confirm or deny...it's a simple question, you'd think... :banghead:

Ah yes Paladine, you're right-I always forget she mentions Austin and flannery by name. I have that screenshot as well but always forget random details of it. Should have looked over it again before opening my big mouth :loser:

there is so much weirdness going on it can be difficult to keep track of it all