Cutting [Archive] - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Paladine

04-23-2010, 01:24 PM

Phoebe wrote a book report on cutting...
http://phoebepenglish9e.blogspot.com/2009/10/orb.html#comments

It has drawn attention and this thread will be for discussion and links related to Phoebe and cutting...

Paladine

04-23-2010, 01:28 PM

On AC360 tonight...
"And we’ve been following the tragic story of Phoebe Prince, a 15-year-old girl who hanged herself in January after enduring what prosecutors described as months of bullying. The teens who have been accused of bullying Prince are charged with civil rights violations. But defense attorneys are expected to use new evidence from Prince’s journal to argue that the teenage girl may have had psychological issues before the bullying. Apparently, she noted “cutting,” in her journal and referenced to the book, “Cutting,” by Dr. Steven Levenkron about understand and overcoming self-mutilation.

Tonight Anderson talks to Dr. Levenkron about why cutting and self-mutilation has become a growing trend among adolescents, teens and – especially – girls. Lisa Bloom also weighs in on how this new evidence may affect the case.

What else are you following? Let us know and see you at 10 p.m. ET.
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/23/morning-buzz-assisted-suicide-goes-to-court/

Paladine

04-23-2010, 09:30 PM

Hey :) just throwing this out into the universe and seeing if it sticks...;)

AC360 tonight has the cutting Dr. on, along with Lisa Bloom, to discuss Phoebe. If anyone is around, and would be so kind, would you post a recap on the cutting thread?

I don't think I'll catch it, I'm not feeling so well, tonight...but it would be great for this forum if we had a few different members takes, imo...

See you all later...:)...peace...p

daisy7

04-23-2010, 09:47 PM

Hope you feel better, Paladine!! I'll be watching and posting as long as I don't lose power or cable (we're having a horrid storm here).

redsky

04-23-2010, 09:53 PM

I wanted to join in on the conversation.
I feel sick because while cutting is a real issue - she was clearly not a cutter by her own admission. I am thrilled to see cutting getting PR but NOT this kind of PR.
The defense is going to use this and it's wrong. I hope the DA does two things 1> fights back with the proof that she wasn't a cutter and 2> the fact that being a cutter DOES NOT make one suicidal. They can be two different issues.

I am interested to see AC but won't be able to, so if someone can post a summary. I will be interested to see if AC gets the story right that she wasn't a cutter!

Anyway, hello all!

Paladine

04-23-2010, 10:09 PM

I wanted to join in on the conversation.
I feel sick because while cutting is a real issue - she was clearly not a cutter by her own admission. I am thrilled to see cutting getting PR but NOT this kind of PR.
The defense is going to use this and it's wrong. I hope the DA does two things 1> fights back with the proof that she wasn't a cutter and 2> the fact that being a cutter DOES NOT make one suicidal. They can be two different issues.

I am interested to see AC but won't be able to, so if someone can post a summary. I will be interested to see if AC gets the story right that she wasn't a cutter!

Anyway, hello all!
I'm on my way out but wanted pop in and say, welcome! Good to have on Phoebe's forum...:blowkiss:

We are growing into a force to be reckoned with! :)

redsky

04-23-2010, 10:50 PM

Thanks Paladine. My fiance told me about this case, I didn't even know about it. I am have been reading all day about it.

redsky

04-23-2010, 10:52 PM

I would not put her down IF she was a cutter because that certainly is a serious psychological issue. But she wasn't.
Am I right that GMA made it seem like she was a cutter?

Paladine

04-23-2010, 11:33 PM

I would not put her down IF she was a cutter because that certainly is a serious psychological issue. But she wasn't.
Am I right that GMA made it seem like she was a cutter?
I can't recall which show it was...The Today Show, peeps? I think the Today Show, the link should be on the media thread...WWLP's article cut her sentence in half leaving off the last part where she says "people close to me"...you gotta read that one, they butchered her book report to fit their premise. Daisys bringing posts over from the general thread to this one. I did a couple of posts on WWLP, it might get moved over...or search WWLP, if you have the stomach for it. ;)

redsky

04-23-2010, 11:38 PM

I can't recall which show it was...The Today Show, peeps? I think the Today Show, the link should be on the media thread...WWLP's article cut her sentence in half leaving off the last part where she says "people close to me"...you gotta read that one, they butchered her book report to fit their premise. Daisys bringing posts over from the general thread to this one. I did a couple of posts on WWLP, it might get moved over...or search WWLP, if you have the stomach for it. ;)

When it should have said that she understood how people close to her felt? This is an outrage and my heart hurts at the same time for Phoebe.

Paladine

04-23-2010, 11:47 PM

When it should have said that she understood how people close to her felt? This is an outrage and my heart hurts at the same time for Phoebe.
Yes. They cut off the sentence leaving the impression she was speaking of herself.

But Slate did a great piece. It's on the other thread, too. Emily B. hit it out of the ballpark, imo. And The Litterbox gets kudos for bringing it to Emily's attention. SK emphasized the error in reporting in a blog post, and then Emily made it clear in her piece, Phoebe said the book helped her comprehend what people who were "close to me" had gone through. THAT was the last sentence most news reports left out.

redsky

04-23-2010, 11:51 PM

Yes. They cut off the sentence leaving the impression she was speaking of herself.

But Slate did a great piece. It's on the other thread, too. Emily B. hit it out of the ballpark, imo. And The Litterbox gets kudos for bringing it to Emily's attention...SK emphasized the error in reporting in a blog post then Emily made it clear Phoebe said the book help her comprehend what people who were "close to me" had gone through. THAT was the last sentence most news reports left out.

Have you seen ACooper yet? Wonder how that will go.

I don't know what the litterbox is but will look for the Slate article! :online:

thebear14

04-24-2010, 12:09 AM

I would not put her down IF she was a cutter because that certainly is a serious psychological issue. But she wasn't.
Am I right that GMA made it seem like she was a cutter?

yep most of the media is trying to make it sound like she was a cutter and that this essay should have been a red flag and whatnot. I read that essay a month ago and never thought it any mind other than she was very intelligent and thoughtful about the subject.

It is possible she was a cutter, but we have no proof, and to use a 9th grade english essay assignment in an attempt to examine her psychological state is just grasping at straws, in my opinion.

also here's a link to Litterbox :) http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/ Hope you have a few hours to spare ;)

Paladine

04-24-2010, 12:10 AM

"This book I really connected with as I found there was truth in every word that Levenkron wrote and it helped me comprehend what people close to me have gone through." -Phoebe Prince

Bolded part previously left out by WWLP.

On one of the essays, the 15 year-old wrote about a book she read called, "Cutting", written by a psychotherapist.

Prince wrote: "This book I really connected with, as I found there was truth in every word." She says self-mutilation is about "trying to transfer the pain from emotional to physical."
http://ow.ly/1Bvsm%20

Paladine

04-24-2010, 12:12 AM

Have you seen ACooper yet? Wonder how that will go.

I don't know what the litterbox is but will look for the Slate article! :online:
No, I haven't. But depending how my insomnia goes, I may catch the later episode. I'll try and get the video, tomorrow. Or if anyone else comes upon it...well, you know. ;)

This is the Litterbox
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/

redsky

04-24-2010, 12:22 AM

yep most of the media is trying to make it sound like she was a cutter and that this essay should have been a red flag and whatnot. I read that essay a month ago and never thought it any mind other than she was very intelligent and thoughtful about the subject.

It is possible she was a cutter, but we have no proof, and to use a 9th grade english essay assignment in an attempt to examine her psychological state is just grasping at straws, in my opinion.

also here's a link to Litterbox :) http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/ Hope you have a few hours to spare ;)

Also, someone may have seen cuts if she was a cutter or she would have told a close friend. Both of those don't have to be true. But I still see the defense :furious: using the essay!!!!

redsky

04-24-2010, 12:23 AM

"This book I really connected with as I found there was truth in every word that Levenkron wrote and it helped me comprehend what people close to me have gone through." -Phoebe Prince

Bolded part previously left out by WWLP.

http://ow.ly/1Bvsm%20

Sounds to me like she had a friend who was a cutter and she was a confidant for that person.

redsky

04-24-2010, 12:24 AM

No, I haven't. But depending how my insomnia goes, I may catch the later episode. I'll try and get the video, tomorrow. Or if anyone else comes upon it...well, you know. ;)

This is the Litterbox
http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/

I have insomnia always too. My sleep schedule is strange, Thanks for the link!

daisy7

04-24-2010, 07:30 AM

AC did not cover Phoebe's case last night. Wonder why not?

thebear14

04-24-2010, 09:13 AM

Also, someone may have seen cuts if she was a cutter or she would have told a close friend. Both of those don't have to be true. But I still see the defense :furious: using the essay!!!!

yep very true. I'll never say she definitely did or didn't but I'm just really unhappy with the way the media is covering it. I'm sure the defense will use it, however I'm also sure that if she was a cutter the autopsy report would indicate same.

McKEire

04-24-2010, 09:33 AM

All this media coverage on her essay of "Cutting" is really bothering me. It in no way indicates she was a cutter, and even if she was, that makes it ok for those kids to stalk and harrass her? that makes her suicide ok? It kills me that she is being victimized even in death.
I am not sure the correct place to put this, but I just wanted to introduce myself since I am kind of a newbie. I have been on WS since 2008, the CA case brought me here. I lived in Orlando for 5 years and the locations were all very familiar to me, and I also have a 3 yo with the same name. I have been following the Phoebe case, and found that WS had this subforum, I am so happy to have a place to discuss this case with people that care.
Phoebe has been on my mind every day since her death. I have never cried over one person so much before, and I didn't even know her. I was a cutter in high school and suicidal as well. I could almost feel her pain, even though I was not bullied to the extent she was.
My mother went to SHHS for one year and was bullied as well, by the lacrosse team.
Two childhood friends had to leave SHHS in the 90's because they were bullied so bad.
But what I find the most confusing is that every single male I know that went to SHHS denies there was/is a problem and agrees the media should go away.
My best friend in high school was D.S. daughter. I wonder what he would have done if that happened to her.
Just wanted to explain myself since I am on post #5 but have been here since 2008.

Herding Cats

04-24-2010, 10:09 AM

The autopsy would show if she had scars that would be consistent with cutting.

Best-
Herding Cats

Paladine

04-24-2010, 11:07 AM

AC did not cover Phoebe's case last night. Wonder why not?
I noticed that! I stayed up to catch it and it never came. I bet the Dr. or AC360 got a call from the family lawyer! I BET! :)

Or many, many angry emails...;)

Paladine

04-24-2010, 11:12 AM

The autopsy would show if she had scars that would be consistent with cutting.

Best-
Herding Cats
Hello, Herding Cats :) Yes. It would be easy to see.

But it's also irrelevant and a way to divert blame from the perp and place it on the victim, imo...:(

Laurence

04-24-2010, 11:26 AM

At the moment all this ridicules coverage of the cutting essay is setting the stage for the defense to trash her before we get any possible trials. This misfire by the media is essentially a free shot that the defense doesn't have to take (and thus they don't get directly blamed for blaming the victim). They just get to take advantage of the effects.

We all know that attacking the victim is the classic strategy, and given the number of people in South Hadley around the net who keep saying "when you know the whole story" or "she was troubled, you will see", this will do nothing but make it more difficult for her to get justice for what was done to her.

daisy7

04-24-2010, 11:49 AM

All this media coverage on her essay of "Cutting" is really bothering me. It in no way indicates she was a cutter, and even if she was, that makes it ok for those kids to stalk and harrass her? that makes her suicide ok? It kills me that she is being victimized even in death.
I am not sure the correct place to put this, but I just wanted to introduce myself since I am kind of a newbie. I have been on WS since 2008, the CA case brought me here. I lived in Orlando for 5 years and the locations were all very familiar to me, and I also have a 3 yo with the same name. I have been following the Phoebe case, and found that WS had this subforum, I am so happy to have a place to discuss this case with people that care.
Phoebe has been on my mind every day since her death. I have never cried over one person so much before, and I didn't even know her. I was a cutter in high school and suicidal as well. I could almost feel her pain, even though I was not bullied to the extent she was.
My mother went to SHHS for one year and was bullied as well, by the lacrosse team.
Two childhood friends had to leave SHHS in the 90's because they were bullied so bad.
But what I find the most confusing is that every single male I know that went to SHHS denies there was/is a problem and agrees the media should go away.
My best friend in high school was D.S. daughter. I wonder what he would have done if that happened to her.
Just wanted to explain myself since I am on post #5 but have been here since 2008.

Thank you, McKEire, for sharing and I'm happy you're posting in Phoebe's forum!

Paladine

04-24-2010, 12:05 PM

A photo of Phoebe...not an outfit I'd wear if I had scars to hide...just sayin'...

Paladine

04-24-2010, 12:15 PM

All this media coverage on her essay of "Cutting" is really bothering me. It in no way indicates she was a cutter, and even if she was, that makes it ok for those kids to stalk and harrass her? that makes her suicide ok? It kills me that she is being victimized even in death.
I am not sure the correct place to put this, but I just wanted to introduce myself since I am kind of a newbie. I have been on WS since 2008, the CA case brought me here. I lived in Orlando for 5 years and the locations were all very familiar to me, and I also have a 3 yo with the same name. I have been following the Phoebe case, and found that WS had this subforum, I am so happy to have a place to discuss this case with people that care.
Phoebe has been on my mind every day since her death. I have never cried over one person so much before, and I didn't even know her. I was a cutter in high school and suicidal as well. I could almost feel her pain, even though I was not bullied to the extent she was.
My mother went to SHHS for one year and was bullied as well, by the lacrosse team.
Two childhood friends had to leave SHHS in the 90's because they were bullied so bad.
But what I find the most confusing is that every single male I know that went to SHHS denies there was/is a problem and agrees the media should go away.
My best friend in high school was D.S. daughter. I wonder what he would have done if that happened to her.
Just wanted to explain myself since I am on post #5 but have been here since 2008.

respectfully bolded by me...so true.

IMO, I think the boys having a problem admitting they HAD a problem, is alot the same as abused kids who deny the abuse in order to feel close to their abuser...as soon as they own the abuse...they will feel anger and pull away from the abuser. In SH, the 'abusers' are everywhere. It seems systemic, to me. The culture. If they pull away and get angry...where do thet turn? I can feel some empathy for the choice they have to make. But I hope they find the courage to stand, even if it is alone, for what's right and honest.

thebear14

04-24-2010, 12:18 PM

A photo of Phoebe...not an outfit I'd wear if I had scars to hide...just sayin'...

yeah I've actually been meaning to mention that Phoebe had plans to wear a spaghetti strap black dress to cotillion - again, not a dress I would wear if I was a cutter. Cutters tend to want to hide their scars - not show them off.

Laurence

04-24-2010, 12:22 PM

A photo of Phoebe...not an outfit I'd wear if I had scars to hide...just sayin'...

True... but timewise that's at Villiers (the boarding school in Ireland) and the photo would be 7th grade or so (and I am pretty sure she was pulled out and went to her mothers school for 8th grade, the year before they came to the US). So it may pre-date alleged cutting problems (which as of now there is no evidence of, just accusations from bully supporters in SH).

Laurence

04-24-2010, 12:23 PM

yeah I've actually been meaning to mention that Phoebe had plans to wear a spaghetti strap black dress to cotillion - again, not a dress I would wear if I was a cutter. Cutters tend to want to hide their scars - not show them off.

Excellent memory, that's right. Sadly, that's also the dress she they used for her services.

Paladine

04-24-2010, 12:25 PM

True... but timewise that's at Villiers (the boarding school in Ireland) and the photo would be 7th grade or so (and I am pretty sure she was pulled out and went to her mothers school for 8th grade, the year before they came to the US). So it may pre-date alleged cutting problems (which as of now there is no evidence of, just accusations from bully supporters in SH).
Beautiful pictures, Lawrence...I think you put that one up, eh? I received from a person who cares, some beautiful new images of pics we had and put them on the photo thread, today. I received a tutorial on posting pics...and what do you know? I did it! :crazy: I think I'm going to add an email link to my posts so if people have any pics or info, they can anonymously email, too...as soon as I figure out how...;) I saw adnoid has one...I want one, too...lol...;)

PS>>>NO idea how that angry smilie got there!!! And I don't know how to take it off...lol...oh, well...

Paladine

04-24-2010, 12:59 PM

yeah I've actually been meaning to mention that Phoebe had plans to wear a spaghetti strap black dress to cotillion - again, not a dress I would wear if I was a cutter. Cutters tend to want to hide their scars - not show them off.

DING, DING, DING! :toastred:

WE have a WINNER! :) And for you, thebear14...:rose:

thebear14

04-24-2010, 05:23 PM

DING, DING, DING! :toastred:

WE have a WINNER! :) And for you, thebear14...:rose:

why thank you :)

thebear14

04-24-2010, 05:44 PM

Hi McKEire :) Thanks for posting.

All this media coverage on her essay of "Cutting" is really bothering me. It in no way indicates she was a cutter, and even if she was, that makes it ok for those kids to stalk and harrass her? that makes her suicide ok? It kills me that she is being victimized even in death.

yeah I agree - it's been bothering me as well. After the first day or two of it I just started to ignore it all because these people just don't get it. First, as you said, just because she wrote an essay on it in no way indicates that she was a cutter and second, even if she was, it definitely doesn't make her being harassed okay or her suicide okay. As far as I'm concerned, nothing Phoebe did makes what they did to her okay, nothing at all.

I am so happy to have a place to discuss this case with people that care.
Phoebe has been on my mind every day since her death. I have never cried over one person so much before, and I didn't even know her. I was a cutter in high school and suicidal as well. I could almost feel her pain, even though I was not bullied to the extent she was.

yea I agree. I have never been so bothered by someone's death that I didn't know. I only started following this case around a month ago, when the charges came out. I had heard about it before but just kind of brushed it off. For the past month though, the case has consumed me. It's made me very sad, and very angry. It's like I'm in mourning for someone I never knew, and it's very difficult. Luckily we have this forum so we can discuss aspects of the case and how we're feeling and for the most part everyone is very kind and receiving :)

also, thanks for sharing your story about also being a cutter and suicidal. I know it's not always an easy thing to talk about. I too was a cutter off and on from around 12-15. It's not generally something I bring up because it's not how I identify myself. However, it was something I went through and dealt with at a young age and I think that's why this particular aspect of the story is making me angry. Too many people are opening their mouths about something they really know nothing about. And although I was a cutter and dealing with some pain and sadness, I was never suicidal. I thought about it at times, but never seriously enough that I would consider myself suicidal. It was never a real plan or thought in my mind. Also, as a cutter, I can tell you I would never have written an essay on cutting that would be seen by my classmates while I was going through it.

I've mentioned this before, but cutting is a lot more common than most people would think, and it's not just these greatly disturbed, weird kids doing it - it's kids you would never imagine. I say this not because I'm trying to say Phoebe was a cutter, I mean it's possible but like we've been saying, it seems unlikely right now. I say this because I know we've read a lot about how Phoebe seemed fine the day she died and the days proceeding it, besides her getting down about the harassment. Just because she seemed fine on the outside doesn't mean she was okay on the inside. I remember many times acting like a normal silly 14 year old girl at school then coming home and falling apart. You never know what's going on on the inside of someone.

anyway, sorry for making this a long rambling mess of a post. Just wanted to comment on a few things McKEire said as well as some things that have been swirling around in my head for the past few days. :)

Herding Cats

04-24-2010, 06:33 PM

Hello, Herding Cats :) Yes. It would be easy to see.

But it's also irrelevant and a way to divert blame from the perp and place it on the victim, imo...:(

I completely agree about it's (ir)relevance...and also agree it's a defense tactic. I guess I'm thinking that in pretrial motions, there would/should be a motion to supress based on evidence (or lack thereof) in re: cutting.

I feel ever so bad for Phoebe and her family...and keep them in my prayers.

Best-
Herding Cats

redsky

04-24-2010, 07:06 PM

I hate when the defense in a trial puts the victim on trial - by attacking their character. "He/she did such and such", almost like an excuse as to why the perp did what they did.

Paladine

04-25-2010, 02:10 AM

I posted this on the photos thread but thought I'd post it here, as well. It's a good picture, more recent, with arms totally exposed in a shorter dress...and because it's pretty...see the spark in her eyes?

thebear14

04-25-2010, 09:04 AM

I posted this on the photos thread but thought I'd post it here, as well. It's a good picture, more recent, with arms totally exposed in a shorter dress...and because it's pretty...see the spark in her eyes?

very pretty :)

I actually found out that picture isn't that recent - it was taken while she was still in Ireland. It may be about a year old but wasn't taken in America as I originally thought.

redsky

04-25-2010, 10:02 AM

I have yet to even see a scrape on her body. And whoever brought up the fact that they would see the scars at the autopsy THANK YOU! You are right, all of that would have to be recorded and marked.

Paladine

04-25-2010, 11:48 AM

very pretty :)

I actually found out that picture isn't that recent - it was taken while she was still in Ireland. It may be about a year old but wasn't taken in America as I originally thought.

Thanks, bear...and good morning, to you...:)

Laurence

04-25-2010, 12:14 PM

I hate when the defense in a trial puts the victim on trial - by attacking their character. "He/she did such and such", almost like an excuse as to why the perp did what they did.

I can't wait to hear what Phoebe did that allowed Sean to block the library door so she couldn't leave while the others taunted her. Or what she did that allowed Longe to throw the can at her.

There are some people I don't like. I'm planning on taking notes on what it is exactly somebody has to do to suddenly make things that are improper, immoral and illegal to suddenly become allowable. So I can, you know, get away with it too. (/sarcasm)

:furious:

Laurence

04-25-2010, 12:15 PM

I have yet to even see a scrape on her body. And whoever brought up the fact that they would see the scars at the autopsy THANK YOU! You are right, all of that would have to be recorded and marked.

And if there are any leaks as to the autopsy to the press/defense/town in general then somebody needs to get in serious trouble.

WaddupYo

04-27-2010, 11:26 AM

I read yesterday about cigarette burns too. She supposedly showed up to school with them the day she died. I think it was that Irish Central article. Let me see if I can find it somewhere.

It was that drudge report not Irish Central.

Sauerkraut2

04-27-2010, 12:12 PM

I can't wait to hear what Phoebe did that allowed Sean to block the library door so she couldn't leave while the others taunted her. Or what she did that allowed Longe to throw the can at her.

There are some people I don't like. I'm planning on taking notes on what it is exactly somebody has to do to suddenly make things that are improper, immoral and illegal to suddenly become allowable. So I can, you know, get away with it too. (/sarcasm)

:furious:

The question in my mind when I read those parts in the indictment documents was: why did the DA not charge them with unlawful restraint/kidnapping?

Sauerkraut2

04-27-2010, 12:15 PM

I read yesterday about cigarette burns too. She supposedly showed up to school with them the day she died.

Supposedly is the key phrase... it is something fluffy is trying to pass off as truth because she has all this inside info she's getting as a member of the anti-bullying task force. I suspect she's full of... gossip... because no school official would risk losing their teaching license due to releasing private information in a matter as hot-button as the Phoebe Prince case.

WaddupYo

04-28-2010, 11:24 AM

Ugh I'm seeing that crap about her on so many websites. I want to break this Dan Bloom's knee caps.

Paladine

04-28-2010, 11:32 AM

They can trash her all they like, it does not make what THEY did legal. It simply shows how lowlife and immoral they really are, bolstering the DA's case, imo.

WaddupYo

04-28-2010, 12:07 PM

My feathers are ruffled up right now..pluck one while you still have a chance..

Paladine

04-28-2010, 01:03 PM

My feathers are ruffled up right now..pluck one while you still have a chance..
LOL! :) You make me smile. You have a passion for what's 'right'. I really like that.

WaddupYo

04-28-2010, 01:59 PM

LOL! :) You make me smile. You have a passion for what's 'right'. I really like that.

I try. I really do try. I always want to do the right thing. And I always want people to be accountable for thier actions. Always.