View Full Version : OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - #17
imamaze
06-16-2010, 09:48 AM
Please continue here.
#1 #2
#3 #4
#5 #6 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106330&highlight=kyron)
#7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106379&page=28) #8
#9 #10
#11 #12
#13 #14
#15 #16
Kyron Horman - MEDIA AND IMAGES LINKS
Forensic Astrology - Kyron Horman disappears 6/4/10 Portland OR - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Originally Posted by JBean
Reminder we are a victim friendly forum. At this point the entire family would be considered victims. Please don't play word games with me.
When we say victim friendly we mean all those that are immediately victimized by what appears to be a terrible crime. This includes the family that is missing a 7 year old child for the love of God.
You are free to discuss your opinions on statements made, possible doubts you may have or questions raised by the information or lack thereof.
But if you start throwing around careless accusations against the family or sleuthing out their personal information or discussing the color of lipstick someone was wearing, you will be given a no expense paid vacation.
If the situation changes and if the investigation by LE points back to the family then these rules will change. We roll with the news and as more information is revealed and as LE gives us information, we adjust.
As I have said, imagine this is your child and people are looking at YOU.
Moreover, stereotyping some of these players is positively embarrassing to the forum. KNOCK IT OFF
The Rules
Threadiquette - Questions about rules welcome here
No more Facebook or rumors!
Reminder: if you have a tip, not matter how small you think it is, please call the tip line at 503-261-2847. If the tip line is answered by automated response, your tip will be heard!!! 503-261-2847
imamaze
06-16-2010, 09:49 AM
Carried over from thread # 11 - Originally posted by JBean
All we are asking on this forum is for care and respect to be shown before throwing a family under a bus.A family that has a missing 7 year old.
We are not asking you to ignore behavior, statements to the press or anything else the family says or does. Feel free to discuss what you see and think. Link facts and stop rumors, that's what we like to do.
If you feel censored here then please post at a forum where they do not moderate and you can say anything you like. We do moderate and some people like it and some people don't. We know we cannot please everyone and so we do not try. We stay true to what we think is right and for now not accusing the family is in line with LE and that is the tact we will take. You can be suspicious of whomever you choose, just be cautious in your posting. As always it is not ok to sleuth family members on this board until they have been named as a POI or a suspect or LE leads us to believe they are being considered actively.
As always, if this changes we will roll with it and we will adjust. But to lay out a families personal affairs when they are not even on the radar at this time is just wrong. There will be plenty of time to investigate if things change and often they do.
Many of you continue to make comments ( direct and indirect) about your disapproval of our guidelines. It disrupts the flow of the thread and we are all growing weary of it.
I am asking, again, to please stop.
Thanks.
elle1919
06-16-2010, 09:57 AM
I don't know how to carry over a post. I replied to a post from debs in the last thread.
Post here:Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OR OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #16
BeanE
06-16-2010, 09:58 AM
Multnomah Co. Sheriff's Office has two pages for Kyron:
1) http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1276
2) http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm
Kyron's Media thread has all the press conference videos and much much more! If you're looking to find a video or article or some specific case information, this is the place to start!
OR Kyron Horman - Portland, Oregon MEDIA AND IMAGES LINKS - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Interceder is a great website to quickly see if there are any new news reports about Kyron:
http://interceder.net/i/kyron-horman
mysticrose
06-16-2010, 10:00 AM
Is the Stepmother of Kyron Horman Being Unfairly Targeted?
Little by little, some clarification is emerging to the public about the investigation of the missing 7 year old Oregonian, Kyron Horman. The police may have their reasons, but they are withholding as much information about the case as they possibly can withhold.
Professionals such as Clint VanZandt, a criminal profiler and former FBI agent, find this "tight-lipped` approach to be counterproductive to any forward progress in the case. Cooperation between the police and family, and there interaction with the media, can go a long way in solving a case. The classic case of Elizabeth Smart was cited by VanZandt, as proof of this
http://thesop.org/story/opinion/2010/06/16/is-the-stepmother-to-kyron-horman-terri-moulton-horman-being-unfairly-targeted.php
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OR OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #16
Responding to Elle's post from here:
My understanding of the vague statement that one parent was asked to go to the house doesn't imply knowledge (to us) of where the parents were at the time the request was made, other than to say that neither was at the house. Kaine in all possibility could have been at work, coming home from work, headed to the school from work, etc etc.
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 10:04 AM
May I please bring this over?
Quote:
Originally Posted by debs http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
According to the video linked just a few posts up, the truck was towed for "mechanical problems" and the reporter quoted the sheriff's office, who told her that the truck was towed at the family's request. I assume that qualifies as a "WHY"
Thank you.Do we know what mechanical problems?Who usually drove the white truck?
May I please bring this over?
Quote:
Originally Posted by debs http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5297624#post5297624)
According to the video linked just a few posts up, the truck was towed for "mechanical problems" and the reporter quoted the sheriff's office, who told her that the truck was towed at the family's request. I assume that qualifies as a "WHY"
Thank you.Do we know what mechanical problems?Who usually drove the white truck?
I don't believe we've been given that information.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 10:07 AM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OR OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #16 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5297869&postcount=1014)
Responding to Elle's post from here:
My understanding of the vague statement that one parent was asked to go to the house doesn't imply knowledge (to us) of where the parents were at the time the request was made, other than to say that neither was at the house. Kaine in all possibility could have been at work, coming home from work, headed to the school from work, etc etc.
Well I was just looking for the transcript of the scanner chatter we looked so hard for last night, and now I can't find it. I'll do some more hunting and link it in in a few. (Please note we can't post the transcript in this thread, we can only link to it.)
Anyway, the scanner chatter does make it appear to me that the stepmom and biodad were at the school, and LE asked for one of them to go back to the house.
elle1919
06-16-2010, 10:09 AM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OR OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #16 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5297869&postcount=1014)
Responding to Elle's post from here:
My understanding of the vague statement that one parent was asked to go to the house doesn't imply knowledge (to us) of where the parents were at the time the request was made, other than to say that neither was at the house. Kaine in all possibility could have been at work, coming home from work, headed to the school from work, etc etc.
Exactly debs, all the more troubling to me why the SM would leave the home where Kyron quite possibly could return to if he wandered away from the school alone earlier in the day. Honestly, someone else could have been at the home waiting for Kyron, but why would LE instruct one of the parents to return there in case Kyron showed up?
I don't know, just one thing to think about while waiting for some news. JMO
Calliope
06-16-2010, 10:11 AM
Bringing this post over from last thread. Some very good points, IMO.
I feel may be one of the few taking LE at their word. I do not think they have any leads that have panned out and are, as they claim, systematically following protocol. Tanner's statements regarding small groups and reassembling at the classroom rang true for me (I am a room parent at a different school), so I have added them to the very few facts confirmed by LE in order to develop my theory. (I think the "sub" in question was most likely a parent volunteer, perhaps not a parent normally associated with that classroom.) So I am leaning toward an opportunistic abduction, at this point. Not necessarily a complete stranger, but very possibly.
Your entire post was very informative and thought provoking for me. It also shook loose another possibility in my mind.
It is known that some predatory pedophiles make an effort to look for single mothers to date. They're not really interested in the mother except as a means of getting close to her children.
I started thinking... what if Kyron were abducted by someone dating a single mother from that school?
Even if she hadn't reached the point of introducing him to her children, it would be totally normal for two adults to discuss her kids, their achievements, what sort of school they go to, etc. And, as we have seen, it isn't difficult at all to find extensive information about that particular school online.
I'm assuming that the perp had not been invited to tour the science fair by the mother he was dating but that would provide the perfect excuse if someone spotted him there. "Oh, I had an unexpected opening in my morning, so I decided to surprise my girlfriend by coming to see her kid's exhibit."
That would make the risks of opportunistically scoping out the school seem much lower. He could have gone there without any specific plan in mind but saw Kyron alone at some point and made his move.
I think it is very possible that Kyron could have been lured out of the school building by a "parent looking" sort of person asking him to come help unload something for the talent show. If anyone had seen the perp with Kyron, all that would have happened would have been that the perp would have returned Kyron to the school unharmed.
But there were no witnesses.
The more I think about it, the lower risk this abduction actually was. If I assume that the abduction would have been aborted at any point if there had been witnesses, then it was almost risk free at that time and place.
The perp would not have been expected to be at the school, so it would be easier to arrange an alibi. If someone had noticed him at the school, he would have had a perfect rationalisation.
The highest risk time would have been a few seconds when he had Kyron out by his vehicle.
Calliope
06-16-2010, 10:13 AM
Well I was just looking for the transcript of the scanner chatter we looked so hard for last night, and now I can't find it. I'll do some more hunting and link it in in a few. (Please note we can't post the transcript in this thread, we can only link to it.)
Anyway, the scanner chatter does make it appear to me that the stepmom and biodad were at the school, and LE asked for one of them to go back to the house.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
amysmom
06-16-2010, 10:15 AM
This can NOT be the same white truck seen around 3p the day he went missing & again around 2a (by Mr. Kelly) cos neither parent would've been able to get away
at that later time with LE around..I assume they were still present at their home for obvious reasons..It still does not change my opinion tho that possibly the perp scouted out that area for a later 'dump' site..It does, however, change whatever opinion I may have re: WHO the perp is cos I'm not ready yet to believe the suspicious actions of this white truck are meaningless to the case.
Deeemdee
06-16-2010, 10:15 AM
Good coverage on Nightline last night:
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/
TopTop
06-16-2010, 10:18 AM
Exactly debs, all the more troubling to me why the SM would leave the home where Kyron quite possibly could return to if he wandered away from the school alone earlier in the day. Honestly, someone else could have been at the home waiting for Kyron, but why would LE instruct one of the parents to return there in case Kyron showed up?
I don't know, just one thing to think about while waiting for some news. JMO
I have stated before that I think if my child was missing I would run out looking for him. I don't think I could just sit at home waiting. My instict would be to go search. If he wasn't on the bus how else would he get home??
My kids take the bus in the morning not after school but if I was told my child did not get on the bus I would rush to school. It either means that my child is left behind at school or got on the wrong bus my mistake.
I would not assume my child had been missing all day!
BeanE
06-16-2010, 10:22 AM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5283551&postcount=732)
Thank you so much, my dear!
:blowkiss:
I posted the link in Kyron's media thread. Search keyword scanner or chatter and it will pop right up.
TXHOPE
06-16-2010, 10:22 AM
I'm interested in knowing if Kyrons father was at the bus stop too or where he was.
Wait a minute, I'm confused.:waitasec: I thought I read somewhere they both were at the bus stop-Sm and Dad. Was that a rumor or fact? Guess I'll go link hunting..
Calliope
06-16-2010, 10:23 AM
elle, thanks !!
tlcya
06-16-2010, 10:25 AM
note to some of us who are following this thread and the scanner one. We can post a link to the scanner thread but we may not carry over transcripts. I was unaware of this until it was explained on the scanner thread by Kimster earlier this a.m.
elle1919
06-16-2010, 10:26 AM
I have stated before that I think if my child was missing I would run out looking for him. I don't think I could just sit at home waiting. My instict would be to go search. If he wasn't on the bus how else would he get home??
My kids take the bus in the morning not after school but if I was told my child did not get on the bus I would rush to school. It either means that my child is left behind at school or got on the wrong bus my mistake.
I would not assume my child had been missing all day!
I might run out looking for them too, but I would make sure someone was at my home waiting in case he did wander away from the school on his own and the way the report sounds it seems as though LE had to ask one of the parents to go back home. Of course we don't know exactly what happened and I am only speculating based on the information we do have.
gliving
06-16-2010, 10:27 AM
Parent Gina Zimmerman said she last saw Kyron in the morning, when he posed in a classroom in front of his "red-eyed tree frog" science project. She said her daughter is one of Kyron’s best friends and she knew him well.
Zimmerman said that Kyron was not the type of child to wander off. "He knows 'stranger danger," she said. "He's a really good kid."
www.krem.com/
Gina is also the PTA pres.
frenchvixen
06-16-2010, 10:30 AM
Good coverage on Nightline last night:
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/
This case is eerily similar to the Etan Patz case. The length of time that it took Etan's mom to know that he never made it to school b/c she was not notified was crucial.
O/T - one of our managers at the law firm were I work was just let go b/c it turns out he was a sex offender. He worked there for two years and the firm supposedly does background checks on all employees. The reason why it was found out was because another employee did a simple google of his name and there it was for all too see: rape in the first degree and a sodomy charge. Although he is 49 now and this crime was committed when he was 18 he was let go. The crime was in Florida and our firm is in NYC. Sometimes employees do not do thorough background checks even though they say they do. I know that most board of eds fingerprint their employees but I would double check every single employee at the school including contractors and vendors.
GrainneDhu
06-16-2010, 10:32 AM
Exactly debs, all the more troubling to me why the SM would leave the home where Kyron quite possibly could return to if he wandered away from the school alone earlier in the day.
I think different people have different reactions in emergency situations.
If it were my child, the very first thing I'd do is dash to the place of the last confirmed siting of my child. And I'd probably do something stupid like leave my cell phone and purse behind!
I would figure that if my child came home while I was gone s/he would have the sense to sit on the front porch step and wait for me.
In the Riley Fox case, when her brother woke her father up to tell him Riley was missing, Kevin Fox's immediate reaction was to search outside for approximately 40 minutes. This was seen as highly suspicious... but they have since arrested a suspect based on DNA evidence. So Kevin Fox's reaction was just his normal, individual reaction in an emergency, not indicating guilt at all.
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 10:32 AM
Good coverage on Nightline last night:
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/
Are they still saying this is not an abduction?
TopTop
06-16-2010, 10:34 AM
I might run out looking for them too, but I would make sure someone was at my home waiting in case he did wander away from the school on his own and the way the report sounds it seems as though LE had to ask one of the parents to go back home. Of course we don't know exactly what happened and I am only speculating based on the information we do have.
I'm trying to put myself in that situation. I would never think that my kids might wander home on their own. They would never do it. My thought would be that they got on the wrong bus (highly unlikely knowing my children) or the most likely scenerio is that for some reason they missed their bus ( they were wasting time doing something else, last minute bathroom break, something happened to them to prevent them from getting on the bus etc). Therefore, I wouldn't worry about leaving someone at home. In my mind there is NO way my kids would get home without the bus.
elle1919
06-16-2010, 10:35 AM
Are they still saying this is not an abduction?
IIRC the last they stated was that it was not a stranger abduction.
ElizaAvalon
06-16-2010, 10:37 AM
If my child did not get off the bus, I, too, would go to the school if that's where I thought he was all day.
If he didn't get on the bus, then I would assume he would be somewhere at the school and I would fly my butt there, even leaving my house empty (doors unlocked, of course).
There's really no way I would sit home and wait for someone to call me with an update! I would want to be right there, on the scene.
On another note, someone mentioned the "we" in Kaine's email to his co-workers. I could see my own husband saying the same, even if it were only one of us that went to the bus stop to get our child off the bus. It implies solidarity.
I am still boggled as to why LE hasn't said in a statement that the parents are ruled out if they are indeed ruled out. It would really help the public help them find this child if it is true.
For The Kids
06-16-2010, 10:40 AM
I am still boggled as to why LE hasn't said in a statement that the parents are ruled out if they are indeed ruled out. It would really help the public help them find this child if it is true.
I totally agree with this
krazyfingerzz
06-16-2010, 10:41 AM
Well I was just looking for the transcript of the scanner chatter we looked so hard for last night, and now I can't find it. I'll do some more hunting and link it in in a few. (Please note we can't post the transcript in this thread, we can only link to it.)
Anyway, the scanner chatter does make it appear to me that the stepmom and biodad were at the school, and LE asked for one of them to go back to the house.
It actually just says that they've told the parents that one needs to be home. Dad might have been at work or en route...it's not specific, and I had apologized way back for incorrectly reading the scanner chatter to mean both parents were at the school.
By the way, my son was in kindergarten and I was late to the stop. The driver (great guy) wouldn't drop him without me there and so took him to the next school ( he was done with my son's route and up the street was the next school). Both bus companies (kyron's and son's) are First Student, and their policy is not to leave little kids (up to I don't know what grade) at a stop without a parent. He radioed the bus company who called both schools, and the school called me. That's the policy, so I think that bus driver probably radioed in when SM found Kyron not to be there. It's also on the scanner saying that the school called police, so that points further to the bus calling in and school calling LE.
Ok...I'm up earlier than usual after a big night of pierogis so I'm going to have coffee and try to get used to this thing people call "morning"...
manybooks
06-16-2010, 10:42 AM
Very possible that SOMEONE was at the house (with baby sister?) at the time, so both parents went quickly in search of Kyron (directly to the last place he was KNOWN to be - school - makes sense to me)
But LE wanted a parent at home so they had someone to contact there.
watchful_eye
06-16-2010, 10:45 AM
what is this about a truck being towed? Sorry, I haven't had time to read posts since yesterday at around 4.
ElizaAvalon
06-16-2010, 10:46 AM
I'm finding many things about this case just odd.
Vigil a symbol of hope for Kyron’s safe return (http://www.katu.com/news/local/96450854.html)
Kyron’s parents and stepparents watched the vigil from a private room.
:waitasec:
I cannot even imagine what the motive could be to not want to be surrounded by and touched by people who have their beautiful son in their hearts.
Calliope
06-16-2010, 10:48 AM
Parent Gina Zimmerman said she last saw Kyron in the morning, when he posed in a classroom in front of his "red-eyed tree frog" science project. She said her daughter is one of Kyron’s best friends and she knew him well.
Zimmerman said that Kyron was not the type of child to wander off. "He knows 'stranger danger," she said. "He's a really good kid."
www.krem.com/
Gina is also the PTA pres.
IMO, a kid in school is going to feel safe (as well they should!).
So here we have a situation where there are many kids, parents, volunteers and staff milling about. Kyron sees these "strangers" and even though he doesn't necessarily know them, logic would tell him that these people are "ok". After all, the school itself is allowing them to be around and interact with all the kids. A perfectly reasonable assumption on his part.
Knowing he's inside a safe place, surrounded by people he knows are there to watch out for him, his guard is going to be way down. In an environment like this, I have no doubt most adults wouldn't consider the 'stranger danger' element as they would elsewhere (which btw could explain why it seems no one noticed anything unusual). So why should we expect a 7 year old child to be any more vigilant??
Given these circumstances, someone with intentions on taking a child would already have a huge advantage, for not only the kids but adults as well would never in a million years expect that something like this could happen.
Now all that is left is for that predator to find a vulnerable child, one who is separated from the group, away from an adult, close to an exit.
On Ethan's FB someone posted a link to a news report about an online child predator handbook. It's actually a how-to manual on how to stalk, groom, abduct children. I didn't have the nerve to go look for it online, but I'm willing to bet that it includes tips on how to take advantage of situations like this. I'll get a link to the report and post it.
Y'all don't want me to relay the nightmare Princess PeePee just relayed. Suffice to say that discussing stranger danger with your child isn't nearly enough. Establishing defensive moves is also necessary.
Now I'd like to go cry because her nightmare has been my nightmare since it nearly happened to me when I was her age. CRIMINY!!!
Calliope
06-16-2010, 10:54 AM
I'm finding many things about this case just odd.
Vigil a symbol of hope for Kyron’s safe return (http://www.katu.com/news/local/96450854.html)
Kyron’s parents and stepparents watched the vigil from a private room.
:waitasec:
I cannot even imagine what the motive could be to not want to be surrounded by and touched by people who have their beautiful son in their hearts.
I can understand. Some people are not comfortable sharing their grief with strangers. Motive? I think that's a bit ironic. Just witness how their every move, word and expression is picked apart here and elsewhere.
I don't know if it's a 'southern thing' but the funeral homes down here have separate rooms with privacy louvers (not sure how else to describe them) where immediate family (or anyone, I suppose) can view the service without being front and center in the chapel. That's the first thing I thought of when I read this.
what is this about a truck being towed? Sorry, I haven't had time to read posts since yesterday at around 4.
It was towed to a local repair shop for repairs.
I'm finding many things about this case just odd.
Vigil a symbol of hope for Kyron’s safe return (http://www.katu.com/news/local/96450854.html)
Kyron’s parents and stepparents watched the vigil from a private room.
:waitasec:
I cannot even imagine what the motive could be to not want to be surrounded by and touched by people who have their beautiful son in their hearts.
Honestly, I become paralyzed with grief and often admire the parents who have the strength to attend these. I personally do not believe I would be able to attend one if it were me.
On Ethan's FB someone posted a link to a news report about an online child predator handbook. It's actually a how-to manual on how to stalk, groom, abduct children. I didn't have the nerve to go look for it online, but I'm willing to bet that it includes tips on how to take advantage of situations like this. I'll get a link to the report and post it.
Now that's just plain sick.....
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 10:55 AM
Are we hearing any more of if and where they are searching right now?I just pray the find Kyron.
raeann
06-16-2010, 10:56 AM
I'm finding many things about this case just odd.
Vigil a symbol of hope for Kyron’s safe return (http://www.katu.com/news/local/96450854.html)
Kyron’s parents and stepparents watched the vigil from a private room.
:waitasec:
I cannot even imagine what the motive could be to not want to be surrounded by and touched by people who have their beautiful son in their hearts.
I would say this even further indicates concern for the safety of the family, and at the very least wanting to protect them from a disturbance of some kind in the vigil, if one of the many vehement "accusers" showed up to verbally attack the sm. It seems it would be the best way to insure that the vigil proceeded as it was meant to in a quiet and respectful manner. It would be easy enough to allow friends of the family to meet with them in a private room after others had left.
jmoo
krazyfingerzz
06-16-2010, 10:59 AM
If my child did not get off the bus, I, too, would go to the school if that's where I thought he was all day.
If he didn't get on the bus, then I would assume he would be somewhere at the school and I would fly my butt there, even leaving my house empty (doors unlocked, of course).
There's really no way I would sit home and wait for someone to call me with an update! I would want to be right there, on the scene.
On another note, someone mentioned the "we" in Kaine's email to his co-workers. I could see my own husband saying the same, even if it were only one of us that went to the bus stop to get our child off the bus. It implies solidarity.
I am still boggled as to why LE hasn't said in a statement that the parents are ruled out if they are indeed ruled out. It would really help the public help them find this child if it is true.
I have been doing some thinking and reading all over the Net, lol, and I have a stronger belief in my theory as regards the parents. It's funny that people are losing objectivity, both sides, and reading only certain things. Many of the sites don't believe it was stepmom, and I don't either. I believe it was someone kyron knows, and very possibly someone known to the school. What school-related people, maybe even employees, would have been done working so that le didn't have to worry about a repeat attack? Why not a parent of a friend, who may have even helped unknowingly to lure kyron outside? (I'm less likely to believe that as I think this person has fewer familial responsibilities than others, and a parent would pose a threat to their own kids, even under close surveillance). I don't believe it was a stranger but someone he trusted. The more I see LE not clear SM, and even the whole truck towing thing, I wonder if they aren't using her as a decoy or distraction. I cannot believe her family would put up with this if they had doubts about her, period. I really think, as far fetched as it may sound, that they really have an idea who the perp is, it's someone in a position of trust, close to ground zero, and the family is bravely doing all they can to help bring their son home. Btw, there is nothing out there on any site that says this. It's my opinion, plain and simple.
Calliope
06-16-2010, 11:00 AM
Here the report on the "pedophile playbook" I talked about in the post above:
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Exposing-the-Pedophile-Playbook-94891204.html
The NBC10 Investigators team up with state and federal law enforcement to help you turn the tables on pedophiles. We are exposing the secrets of child sex abusers.
We have uncovered a "Pedophile Playbook" and it's available online. That's right, a how-to guide that's dedicated to teaching adults how to get close to and sexually abuse your children.
Police are aware of this book and want to make sure you are too. The more information you know, the more power you have to protect your child.
Video report at link.
cluciano63
06-16-2010, 11:01 AM
I am a big supporter of LE, even in cases where others here have taken up against them, BUT...I am beginning to feel that unless they are following up on a specific person right now, that they need to be a little more open with the public. I don't see how it can jeopordize a case against an offender to clear up a few facts, if they in fact have no idea who the offender is. I know, I know, everyone keeps saying they don't want the perp to know what they know...but not sure how it helps perp/hurts LE to indicate once and for all, what time Kyron was last seen (if they know); if it was by someone other than stepmother; and why they keep calling this an "isolated case." Any whatever else they could clear up without affecting the case.
I have assumed since Sunday that they have been following a specfic trail leading to a specific unknown perp, but the more time goes by, I am almost back to thinking they do not have a plan or a suspect/POI. And if this is true, and the silence continues to deafen us, the case will grow cold, no matter what they say. JMO
ElizaAvalon
06-16-2010, 11:03 AM
Y'all don't want me to relay the nightmare Princess PeePee just relayed. Suffice to say that discussing stranger danger with your child isn't nearly enough. Establishing defensive moves is also necessary.
Now I'd like to go cry because her nightmare has been my nightmare since it nearly happened to me when I was her age. CRIMINY!!!
BBM - Exactly!
I tell my kids all the time to fight, kick, scream, spit, bite, run, grab something big like a trash can and don't let go.
Someone asks for directions? The response is, Sorry I don't know where that is, you keep your distance and you keep walking.
Did you ever see on one of those 20/20 type shows a segment about the girl who was abducted for some time and then set free? The man simply pulled into a driveway in front of her while she was walking on the sidewalk, rolled down his passenger window and quietly pretended to ask for directions. When she peeked her head into the car to hear him better he grabbed her and pulled her whole body into the car. Think about how easy that was for him!
That one had me shuddering for weeks.
DidionFan
06-16-2010, 11:05 AM
Good morning - hoping for break throughs today, and that Kyron will be found.
That said, I am pretty heavy hearted - Hope it's okay I let go here for a moment. I am staying positive as much as possible, but with the timeline, it is getting harder and harder to feel they are looking for Kyron alive. I am only a couple of days as a member here at WS, so I hope to not deflate by posting something so negative, but over the last 2 days, I can't stop thinking about the presser where LE gets emotional, hiding tears, voice cracking (was it the first one or the second one?). Something seems to be clicking in my deductions that since that moment, some tip must have come about to make this an "isolated incident" potentially with an idea of Kyron's fate, and therefore difficult for the parents to come forward with a plea for help without giving anything away to a potential person of interest. Like, LE had an idea even then of who would lure Kyron out of the school, and that the outcome is grim. I can only imagine how hard it would be if it was likely that my child was perhaps dead and I had to put on a face to the community asking for their hopes and prayers, how impossible it would be without losing it or giving an emotion away that could defeat their investigation.
I feel awful, but I do very much now think that an RSO is involved, someone who fits an "earn trust of victim" MO, and that he either somehow got into contact with this family or the school, and found his opportunity on the day of the fair. Maybe he's never killed, but I am sure LE checked all local RSO's ASAP in this case. Maybe someone seemed highly suspicious, but denying involvement, and in the early stages, LE hoped Kyron was still alive, perhaps hidden, and if they gave appearance of believing the RSO in the hopes of gleaning more information to get the perp, they could save Kyron.
But that emotional presser seems to me that they were pretty concerned and fearful that a bad person had done something bad, and now they have to keep on with the search and get more tips to pressure the guy to reveal something.
Just thoughts. There's so much speculation out there right now on the webs, especially with the localized Sauvie's Island search - a place I was going to take my parents when they visit next weekend until all this started - that some theories and non-WS postings have gotten me thinking that LE has to be following some lead, and it most likely is something that didn't add up when questioning an RSO. Maybe LE felt comfortable letting the kids back the following Monday because someone was being held for questioning.
Who knows!
All I know is that I HOPE I am wrong. I am so horrified by so many of the crimes I hear about, and who ends up being responsible is often devastating. Loving Portland as I do, this child is a child of all of Portland right now, and frankly, I pray that he is returned alive and well and able to continue his life with the beautiful energy we have come to love about him. But I am entering a preparation phase because actions over the last few days by LE do lead me to believe that Sauvie's Island cannot be a mere wild goose chase....someone has raised their concerns, in my opinion.
:(
RoughlyCollie
06-16-2010, 11:06 AM
but the more time goes by, I am almost back to thinking they do not have a plan or a suspect/POI. And if this is true, and the silence continues to deafen us, the case will grow cold, no matter what they say. JMO
I am worried that the case is already cold. I hope I am wrong, of course, but the long lead time the perp had gave the perp the advantage. The child thief could be anywhere by now, in another state or even in Canada. Someone, somewhere, could have noticed that a person was acting a bit strangely and not associate it with Kyron because LE appears to be acting locally.
OTOH,maybe LE does have a viable suspect and that person is still in the area.
I don't think that the perp is one of the parents or stepparents because, correct me if I'm wrong, LE is always with them. It doesn't seem that any of them have the opportunity to do anything to further hide his/her/their crime.
OTOH, maybe LE does suspect one of them, and is looking for Kyron locally because of that. It just doesn't make sense that LE would be so closely associated with them that, if the perp were among them, LE would not let the perp alone long enough for s/he to do something incriminating while LE had them under secret surveillance.
Basically, anyone who suspects one of the parents is just whistling in the wind. From everything I've read, there is nothing to point to one of the parents. The perp could literally be anyone who was in the vicinity of the school on that fateful morning. I sometimes vacillate about suspecting one of the parents, because there are so many cases in which a parent was the perp. I hope it isn't true in this case, and meanwhile I have no strong reason for suspecting these particular parents.
In essence, I am afraid the case has gone cold. I very much want to be wrong. I very much hope LE has strong leads and a viable suspect, and that Kyron is alive.
Exactly debs, all the more troubling to me why the SM would leave the home where Kyron quite possibly could return to if he wandered away from the school alone earlier in the day. Honestly, someone else could have been at the home waiting for Kyron, but why would LE instruct one of the parents to return there in case Kyron showed up?
I don't know, just one thing to think about while waiting for some news. JMO
Sometimes when someone plans out the "perfect crime" in their heads -- the one thing they can't plan out is how to properly act after the fact. (Because it's the one part they couldn't rehearse)
It's also hard for them to act correctly because they already know the outcome.
ElizaAvalon
06-16-2010, 11:07 AM
Ya see, folks, it's not just ONE THING for me here. So many things are off in my opinion.
Even the fact that LE is remaining quiet on this further bolsters my opinion.
I'll be quiet now.
tlcya
06-16-2010, 11:09 AM
I cannot even imagine dealing with the soft words, gentle touches and tearful, well-meaning hugs of folks at a time like that. Each small kindness would make me break down. Emotionally, I just could not handle that. Some folks need to withdraw a bit from that sort of outpouring else they would fall apart. Have you ever felt so raw and scared and hurt and helpless that you feared if you started crying you wouldn't stop? If you let yourself break, even a little, you would literally have a mental breakdown? People react diferently to such a circumstance. Sometimes, the emotion is just plain too raw, too near the surface to deal with.
Add to that people you don't even know all over teh nation pointing and staring and speculating that you have done something wrong. These are regular people, not celebrities. They are not accustomed to being in the media spotlight and under that sort of microspoce.
Whatever the reason they needed a quiet space to retire to during the vigil. I do not fault them for that. I pray for them.
GrainneDhu
06-16-2010, 11:11 AM
I am still boggled as to why LE hasn't said in a statement that the parents are ruled out if they are indeed ruled out. It would really help the public help them find this child if it is true.
They haven't ruled out the bio-mom and stepdad, either. Even though they were 275 miles away and it would seem easy to establish enough alibi to rule out having made that drive.
In other high profile cases, the family is never officially ruled out except via the arrest of the perpetrator (Somer Thompson, for instance).
I don't even remember if the Walshes were ever officially ruled out in the matter of Adam Walsh's abduction. And I clearly remember the accusations, threats and sheer hatred directed at Reve Walsh (I can't make my computer do the accent over the second e in Ms Walsh's name, sorry).
One reason not to rule anyone in or out is that they are leaving room for the perpetrator to give away information they shouldn't have. Or things that are just plain weird. Maybe even for the perpetrator to insert themselves into the investigation by providing a false siting of the SM that would decisively rule her in or out.
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 11:11 AM
I can understand. Some people are not comfortable sharing their grief with strangers. Motive? I think that's a bit ironic. Just witness how their every move, word and expression is picked apart here and elsewhere.
I don't know if it's a 'southern thing' but the funeral homes down here have separate rooms with privacy louvers (not sure how else to describe them) where immediate family (or anyone, I suppose) can view the service without being front and center in the chapel. That's the first thing I thought of when I read this.
I don't find it odd at all. I am sure all the family members didn't want the vigil to be about them but only about Kyron.
I am from the south too Calliope and I thought about that when I first read it.
I just don't think at this time these parents can please some no matter what they do or don't do.
IMO
BeanE
06-16-2010, 11:16 AM
It actually just says that they've told the parents that one needs to be home. Dad might have been at work or en route...it's not specific, and I had apologized way back for incorrectly reading the scanner chatter to mean both parents were at the school.
By the way, my son was in kindergarten and I was late to the stop. The driver (great guy) wouldn't drop him without me there and so took him to the next school ( he was done with my son's route and up the street was the next school). Both bus companies (kyron's and son's) are First Student, and their policy is not to leave little kids (up to I don't know what grade) at a stop without a parent. He radioed the bus company who called both schools, and the school called me. That's the policy, so I think that bus driver probably radioed in when SM found Kyron not to be there. It's also on the scanner saying that the school called police, so that points further to the bus calling in and school calling LE.
Ok...I'm up earlier than usual after a big night of pierogis so I'm going to have coffee and try to get used to this thing people call "morning"...
Thanks krazy. Calliope found the transcript and I read it again and you're right. It doesn't specify that dad was at the school.
I read that as 'piercings' vs pierogis...
KaylynnCouture
06-16-2010, 11:17 AM
Come home Kyron. :rose:
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 11:17 AM
They haven't ruled out the bio-mom and stepdad, either. Even though they were 275 miles away and it would seem easy to establish enough alibi to rule out having made that drive.
In other high profile cases, the family is never officially ruled out except via the arrest of the perpetrator (Somer Thompson, for instance).
I don't even remember if the Walshes were ever officially ruled out in the matter of Adam Walsh's abduction. And I clearly remember the accusations, threats and sheer hatred directed at Reve Walsh (I can't make my computer do the accent over the second e in Ms Walsh's name, sorry).
One reason not to rule anyone in or out is that they are leaving room for the perpetrator to give away information they shouldn't have. Or things that are just plain weird. Maybe even for the perpetrator to insert themselves into the investigation by providing a false siting of the SM that would decisively rule her in or out.
Exactly. I don't know why some are so concentrated on the step mom being ruled out when no one has been ruled out and I highly doubt that some think all four parents are involved.
I never remember LE coming out and ruling the Walsh parents out and I don't even remember them doing so in Paulie Klass' case even though Mark Klass said later that he had taken a poly and passed but I don't even think LE revealed that at the time when they had not found the real suspect.
I know they didn't do it in the Lunsford or Greone case either.
IMO
Astrella613
06-16-2010, 11:17 AM
I think different people have different reactions in emergency situations.
If it were my child, the very first thing I'd do is dash to the place of the last confirmed siting of my child. And I'd probably do something stupid like leave my cell phone and purse behind!
I would figure that if my child came home while I was gone s/he would have the sense to sit on the front porch step and wait for me.
In the Riley Fox case, when her brother woke her father up to tell him Riley was missing, Kevin Fox's immediate reaction was to search outside for approximately 40 minutes. This was seen as highly suspicious... but they have since arrested a suspect based on DNA evidence. So Kevin Fox's reaction was just his normal, individual reaction in an emergency, not indicating guilt at all.
When my daughter was three, I was working and I had her in a nursery school that was about five blocks from my house. At the time I didn't have a car so I would walk there to drop her off and pick her up after work. They decided to get a bus service, so I signed her up for one way drop off to see how it would work. She was supposed to get dropped off at 4:30. I was waiting outside, in the days before cell phones. 4:45 not there, I run back in the house and call the school, they tell me it's the first day and bus driver has to get used to the addresses. Well to make this short, by 5:30 she still was not there. I was flipping out, wanting to run over to the school so badly but knowing that I couldn't as I had to wait for the bus. Kept running back home to call school and decided if she wasn't there by 6, I was going to call the police. Finally they dropped her off a few minutes before 6, thankfully and she seemed just fine. Needless to say that was her last day on the bus. What a nightmare, I can't even imagine what the family is going through.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 11:19 AM
I'm finding many things about this case just odd.
Vigil a symbol of hope for Kyron’s safe return (http://www.katu.com/news/local/96450854.html)
Kyron’s parents and stepparents watched the vigil from a private room.
:waitasec:
I cannot even imagine what the motive could be to not want to be surrounded by and touched by people who have their beautiful son in their hearts.
I would think probably safety. If I were experiencing the vehemence the stepmother is right now, and I were any of the four of them, I would definitely avoid crowds and situations in which I were not physically protected, particularly if I had other children to take care of.
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 11:19 AM
IIRC the last they stated was that it was not a stranger abduction.
Do you have a link where LE said that Ellie? I must have missed that.
I know recently LE said they are not ruling out an abduction. There was a link to that on the last thread somewhere.
IMO
Jules_SA
06-16-2010, 11:20 AM
My personal opinions on this case swing from the far left to the far right as I read the few facts that we have confirmed. I accept that LE owes us, Joe Public, absolutely nothing ito information, especially when they know that it could jeaopardize the case. But I feel positively Bipolar the way my opinion keeps swinging like a pendulum from one possibility to another on the opposite side.
We KNOW it's a CONFIRMED isolated incident and we KNOW LE said they didn't suspect it was a stranger abduction. But that grey area in between is driving me nuts.
Hands up any of those who feel completely frustrated by this case. Because, at the end of the day, Kyron is still missing. And nobody (that matters anyway) knows where he is.
:(
DidionFan
06-16-2010, 11:20 AM
I'm finding many things about this case just odd.
Vigil a symbol of hope for Kyron’s safe return (http://www.katu.com/news/local/96450854.html)
Kyron’s parents and stepparents watched the vigil from a private room.
:waitasec:
I cannot even imagine what the motive could be to not want to be surrounded by and touched by people who have their beautiful son in their hearts.
:(
I know I just wrote an earful - and I haven't participated in this forum for long and am not familiar with what may be textbook - but, if LE had some ideas about a grim outcome and leads, wouldn't they share it to some extent with Kyron's parents? Imagine a room of love and hope when you are being told it is very likely its a recovery search? The public doesn't know what family may know, and bless them and us, we are all hoping for the best. We want what they want, Kyron back in his family's arms. But...it is quite possible that LE has told them it is not going to happen. That would be an emotion that would be really obvious in a room of a prayerful, hopeful people, maybe too much to bare or contain - like, I'd burst and freak out, I think and reveal what I've been told and need to world to help me in my grief.
I've gone all over this in terms of who I thought was responsible, including strong suspicions about the family, based on statistics, rumors, comments...and now, I am just incredibly sad for this family. Kyrons science fair project looked like the snazziest most special one in the room, and I think a lot of love and effort went into making him feel like a star that day, for pure, loving reasons....I think they know why they have stayed out of the spotlight, and I am learning to trust that, along with LE and the small amount of released information...
GrainneDhu
06-16-2010, 11:21 AM
I cannot even imagine what the motive could be to not want to be surrounded by and touched by people who have their beautiful son in their hearts.
Different people are different.
I wouldn't appear at the vigil if Kyron were my son, either. I am an introvert and fairly shy. I hate crowds at the best of times, I avoid gatherings like the plague and find the company of strangers draining rather than invigorating.
I know myself--if the tears once welled up, I'd start crying. And then I'd sob and wail. And then my nose would run copiously and forget kleenex, I'd need a towel to wipe my face. It's humiliating to be so old and out of control but over fifty years of trying to change hasn't worked yet.
So I would have chosen the private room as well. And I can guarantee I had nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance!
seeking truth
06-16-2010, 11:22 AM
This can NOT be the same white truck seen around 3p the day he went missing & again around 2a (by Mr. Kelly) cos neither parent would've been able to get away
at that later time with LE around..I assume they were still present at their home for obvious reasons..It still does not change my opinion tho that possibly the perp scouted out that area for a later 'dump' site..It does, however, change whatever opinion I may have re: WHO the perp is cos I'm not ready yet to believe the suspicious actions of this white truck are meaningless to the case.BBM.
Does anyone know what time the bus stopped at Kyron's house that afternoon?
Apologies up front, but I don't remember WHERE the white truck was seen.
If anyone could point me to that information I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 11:27 AM
Different people are different.
I wouldn't appear at the vigil if Kyron were my son, either. I am an introvert and fairly shy. I hate crowds at the best of times, I avoid gatherings like the plague and find the company of strangers draining rather than invigorating.
I know myself--if the tears once welled up, I'd start crying. And then I'd sob and wail. And then my nose would run copiously and forget kleenex, I'd need a towel to wipe my face. It's humiliating to be so old and out of control but over fifty years of trying to change hasn't worked yet.
So I would have chosen the private room as well. And I can guarantee I had nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance!
And I believe that is why John Walsh stressed he does not judge these parents and he has dealt with thousands of parents who have/had missing children and not all of them grieve the same way nor do they know how to handle the media onslaught.
Many of them have never stepped before a camera imo, yet their grief is just as profound as those who do.
IMO
belimom
06-16-2010, 11:29 AM
I fear this case will go cold... :(
Just like many other cases. I keep watching/waiting for something big to happen, and... nothing.
Please, Kyron - lead them to you, sweetie... :praying:
elle1919
06-16-2010, 11:29 AM
Do you have a link where LE said that Ellie? I must have missed that.
I know recently LE said they are not ruling out an abduction. There was a link to that on the last thread somewhere.
IMO
Sure ....give me a mo...lol
TGIRecovered
06-16-2010, 11:30 AM
I can understand. Some people are not comfortable sharing their grief with strangers. Motive? I think that's a bit ironic. Just witness how their every move, word and expression is picked apart here and elsewhere.
I don't know if it's a 'southern thing' but the funeral homes down here have separate rooms with privacy louvers (not sure how else to describe them) where immediate family (or anyone, I suppose) can view the service without being front and center in the chapel. That's the first thing I thought of when I read this.
I always thought that was the "cry room" or for breastfeeding, wiggly toddlers etc., but I could be wrong.
IMO, this family's obsession with privacy is being taken so far, it makes me think of people who have a phobia about being in public. Is it called agoraphobia? From what we've seen of the family's history of being invloved in public lives at work, school and online, that makes no sense to me.
There is a difference between being private and hiding. Private people avoid deep coversations or don't talk about personal lives. People who hide are exhibiting fear of being "discovered", IMO.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 11:30 AM
Good morning - hoping for break throughs today, and that Kyron will be found.
That said, I am pretty heavy hearted - Hope it's okay I let go here for a moment. I am staying positive as much as possible, but with the timeline, it is getting harder and harder to feel they are looking for Kyron alive. I am only a couple of days as a member here at WS, so I hope to not deflate by posting something so negative, but over the last 2 days, I can't stop thinking about the presser where LE gets emotional, hiding tears, voice cracking (was it the first one or the second one?). Something seems to be clicking in my deductions that since that moment, some tip must have come about to make this an "isolated incident" potentially with an idea of Kyron's fate, and therefore difficult for the parents to come forward with a plea for help without giving anything away to a potential person of interest. Like, LE had an idea even then of who would lure Kyron out of the school, and that the outcome is grim. I can only imagine how hard it would be if it was likely that my child was perhaps dead and I had to put on a face to the community asking for their hopes and prayers, how impossible it would be without losing it or giving an emotion away that could defeat their investigation.
I feel awful, but I do very much now think that an RSO is involved, someone who fits an "earn trust of victim" MO, and that he either somehow got into contact with this family or the school, and found his opportunity on the day of the fair. Maybe he's never killed, but I am sure LE checked all local RSO's ASAP in this case. Maybe someone seemed highly suspicious, but denying involvement, and in the early stages, LE hoped Kyron was still alive, perhaps hidden, and if they gave appearance of believing the RSO in the hopes of gleaning more information to get the perp, they could save Kyron.
But that emotional presser seems to me that they were pretty concerned and fearful that a bad person had done something bad, and now they have to keep on with the search and get more tips to pressure the guy to reveal something.
Just thoughts. There's so much speculation out there right now on the webs, especially with the localized Sauvie's Island search - a place I was going to take my parents when they visit next weekend until all this started - that some theories and non-WS postings have gotten me thinking that LE has to be following some lead, and it most likely is something that didn't add up when questioning an RSO. Maybe LE felt comfortable letting the kids back the following Monday because someone was being held for questioning.
Who knows!
All I know is that I HOPE I am wrong. I am so horrified by so many of the crimes I hear about, and who ends up being responsible is often devastating. Loving Portland as I do, this child is a child of all of Portland right now, and frankly, I pray that he is returned alive and well and able to continue his life with the beautiful energy we have come to love about him. But I am entering a preparation phase because actions over the last few days by LE do lead me to believe that Sauvie's Island cannot be a mere wild goose chase....someone has raised their concerns, in my opinion.
:(
For reference, that was the June 7th noon press conference. I don't have all the pressers memorized - I just happened to be looking at it yesterday for something else. :)
Calliope
06-16-2010, 11:31 AM
(audio interview at link)
http://www.fbi.gov/inside/archive/inside080709.htm
Mr. Schiff: Hello I’m Neal Schiff and welcome to Inside the FBI, a weekly podcast about news, cases and operations. The FBI has an Office for Victim Assistance and these folks have been at some major incidents, such as the tragedy at Virginia Tech, helping those in need.
Ms. Turman: “The Office for Victim Assistance was created shortly after 9/11. And it was established really to give focus to the FBI’s Victim Assistance program. The program really became fully focused about that time. We established fulltime Victim Specialist positions for all of the FBI field offices and then began developing special victims programs as well. And our officer here at Headquarters oversees all of the programs and positions and provides support and assistance to them.”
Mr. Schiff: What do Victim Specialists do?
Ms. Turman: “Well Victim Specialists are here to ensure that every victim in an FBI investigation receives the rights and assistance to which they are entitled under the law and which will help them cope with the impact of crime.”
Mr. Schiff: What are some of the types of situations that may have your staff called out on?
Ms. Turman: “Victim Specialists can get called out on all kinds of situations involving victims. For instance, even a bank robbery. If the FBI responds to a bank robbery where there has been violence, a Victim Specialist may go out to that bank robbery to assist the victims. To provide emotional support; to help contact family members if the victim has been injured or killed; a Victim Specialist may go out to the scene of a kidnapping to provide support to the family. There are other kinds, usually it’s a violent crime of some kind where they will provide immediate on-scene support to; they’ll provide crisis intervention for the family or surviving victims; they may go to a hospital or they may, as I said, go to a victim’s home.”
Mr. Schiff: Well certainly coming to mind is the heinous crime at Virginia Tech a couple of years ago that your office definitely was on scene.
Ms. Turman: “Yes, Victim Specialists may also respond as teams to those kinds of incidents like Virginia Tech. We have Victim Assistance Rapid Deployment Teams which consist of some of our Victim Specialists who are highly trained. They have been through special training for these kinds of mass casualty events and they will go out and support the local responders as well. In Virginia Tech, we were there with local Virginia victim assistance responders. We worked alongside the Red Cross, with folks from Virginia Tech, and provided a lot of assistance, not only to the university staff, but to victims’ families and participated in the Family Support Center, but also found that they were helping people in all kinds of venues even sitting in a restaurant one evening after being at the Family Assistance Center. They found they were talking to a Virginia Tech student who was a waiter who was very impacted by the event.”
Mr. Schiff: When you are out at a scene of violence, you almost have to put yourself away from what really happened to be able to have the where-with-all to be able to assist those who are the victims?
Ms. Turman: “Absolutely. And I think our folks are trained; they’re almost all social workers; they have mental health degrees; they’ve worked with violent crime victims for many, many years. Most of them have Masters Degrees and they are professional Victim Specialists, so they have to have a degree of objectivity. They look at this as professionals; so they’re trained to provide to provide support; they’re trained not to get to personally involved. So it is their job; they care very much, and they are able to provide a wonderful level of compassionate support, but it’s also very practical and they approach it as part of their job. So they can do their jobs without losing their objectivity. Somebody has to be able to do that and to make good decisions to provide support and assistance to people who are not able to think very clearly and not able to manage sometimes even the most basic tasks because everything has been pulled out from under them.”
Mr. Schiff: How large a staff do you have and what kind of training do they go through?
Ms. Turman: “Right now we have 122 fulltime Victim Specialist positions for the field and we have about, we’ve just grown, to about 20-something people here at headquarters. All of our people come to their jobs with a great deal of professional training and education. And then they go through additional training here. We have annual training for all of our staff that’s very FBI specific that deals with specific kinds of cases. A lot of our folks are licensed social workers or clinical social workers, so they have to through additional training to maintain those licenses ever year. If they are on the Rapid Deployment Teams, then they go through specialized training for that. We also have Child Interview Specialists, Forensic Child Interview Specialists on our staff who receive specialized training to be able to do those jobs, to interview child adolescent victims who have been victims of all kinds of crimes and sometimes have been witnesses to horrific crimes as well. So they have specialized training in child development and how children develop language. They may also interview kids who have developmental disabilities.”
(more at link)
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/victimassist/home.htm
FYI
I fear this case will go cold... :(
Just like many other cases. I keep watching/waiting for something big to happen, and... nothing.
Please, Kyron - lead them to you, sweetie... :praying:
I think an arrest will be made sooner than you think.
Emma Peel
06-16-2010, 11:33 AM
Do you have a link where LE said that Ellie? I must have missed that.
I know recently LE said they are not ruling out an abduction. There was a link to that on the last thread somewhere.
IMO
I have heard so called "experts" on news shows opining the non-stranger abduction theory.
I don't recall LE saying abduction or non-stranger abduction. Just criminal investigation/missing-endangered. It is not said as fact, it's said as opinion. Which is strange, but at least reporters are trying to get people with experience to look at this thing and what it could likely mean.
Calliope
06-16-2010, 11:33 AM
I always thought that was the "cry room" or for breastfeeding, wiggly toddlers etc., but I could be wrong.
IMO, this family's obsession with privacy is being taken so far, it makes me think of people who have a phobia about being in public. Is it called agoraphobia? From what we've seen of the family's history of being invloved in public lives at work, school and online, that makes no sense to me.
There is a difference between being private and hiding. Private people avoid deep coversations or don't talk about personal lives. People who hide are exhibiting fear of being "discovered", IMO.
I'm MUCH more sociable and extroverted online than I am in real life. I can say for a fact I couldn't attend a candlelight vigil or appear before the media.
I'm quite the wallflower lol.
DidionFan
06-16-2010, 11:34 AM
Hands up any of those who feel completely frustrated by this case.
:(
my hand's up!
I also have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other. Neither option (nor the ones in between) makes me feel any better, by the way. What I'd like doesn't involve either, and too much time has gone for me to think of anything else but those spectrums. Just sadness and prayers, and grasping on to the hope for miracles that do happen.
raeann
06-16-2010, 11:35 AM
I am a big supporter of LE, even in cases where others here have taken up against them, BUT...I am beginning to feel that unless they are following up on a specific person right now, that they need to be a little more open with the public. I don't see how it can jeopordize a case against an offender to clear up a few facts, if they in fact have no idea who the offender is. I know, I know, everyone keeps saying they don't want the perp to know what they know...but not sure how it helps perp/hurts LE to indicate once and for all, what time Kyron was last seen (if they know); if it was by someone other than stepmother; and why they keep calling this an "isolated case." Any whatever else they could clear up without affecting the case.
I have assumed since Sunday that they have been following a specfic trail leading to a specific unknown perp, but the more time goes by, I am almost back to thinking they do not have a plan or a suspect/POI. And if this is true, and the silence continues to deafen us, the case will grow cold, no matter what they say. JMO
The thing is with media...as with us right here....we are sort of like sharks. Once they put a drop of "blood" in the water, the frenzy will get out of control. If they say what time he was seen, then we will demand to know where and by who and how many people saw him and what was he doing and a dozen other questions which they either don't want to or can't answer for good reasons. If we find out what time, then find out who, then that person will become a target. Media will be on their lawn, at their summer job, following them to the grocery store, etc. Things like that tend to work a negative effect on witnesses and later on may cause problems with testimony. You know...defense attorney stuff like "in your first statement to police you said Kyron was walking in the middle of the stairway, then later you left that part out when stationXXX did their second interview. Now you say he was a little closer to the left side, so which is it? Why should we believe you if you can't remember correctly?" It is frustrating for us, but IMO LE is doing what they see as best for a lot of different reasons combined.
jmoo
matou
06-16-2010, 11:35 AM
My personal opinions on this case swing from the far left to the far right as I read the few facts that we have confirmed. I accept that LE owes us, Joe Public, absolutely nothing ito information, especially when they know that it could jeaopardize the case. But I feel positively Bipolar the way my opinion keeps swinging like a pendulum from one possibility to another on the opposite side.
We KNOW it's a CONFIRMED isolated incident and we KNOW LE said they didn't suspect it was a stranger abduction. But that grey area in between is driving me nuts.
Hands up any of those who feel completely frustrated by this case. Because, at the end of the day, Kyron is still missing. And nobody (that matters anyway) knows where he is.
:(
I really hope EVERYONE who was in that school that morning,who knows Kyron personally (or indirectly from his school i.e. a parent) has been questioned and thoroughly checked out, especially if they left the school after or during the science fair (teachers, parents, G. Zimmerman, supply teachers, custodians, etc). Anyone who was seen speaking to Kyron at all that morning at the school needs to be investigated. I can't BELIEVE this is taking so long to announce a POI. Where is Kyron????
No More
06-16-2010, 11:36 AM
From local regional news:
Record spring rains have made the rivers colder and higher than normal, probably record levels for this time of year.
watchful_eye
06-16-2010, 11:36 AM
Kyron’s parents and stepparents watched the vigil from a private room.
It may have been a safety issue. A lot of people think they are responsible for Kyron's abduction, so LE may have advised them to stay out of public settings for fear of being bombarded by press, angry citizens, or even well-wishers---who still may be too emotionally overwhelming for the family.
Calliope
06-16-2010, 11:39 AM
I cannot even imagine dealing with the soft words, gentle touches and tearful, well-meaning hugs of folks at a time like that. Each small kindness would make me break down. Emotionally, I just could not handle that. Some folks need to withdraw a bit from that sort of outpouring else they would fall apart. Have you ever felt so raw and scared and hurt and helpless that you feared if you started crying you wouldn't stop? If you let yourself break, even a little, you would literally have a mental breakdown? People react diferently to such a circumstance. Sometimes, the emotion is just plain too raw, too near the surface to deal with.
Add to that people you don't even know all over teh nation pointing and staring and speculating that you have done something wrong. These are regular people, not celebrities. They are not accustomed to being in the media spotlight and under that sort of microspoce.
Whatever the reason they needed a quiet space to retire to during the vigil. I do not fault them for that. I pray for them.
The thank you button doesn't suffice.
Beautiful, compassionate post.
GrainneDhu
06-16-2010, 11:40 AM
I don't see how it can jeopordize a case against an offender to clear up a few facts, if they in fact have no idea who the offender is.
One reason not to specify the last time a reliable eyewitness saw Kyron is to help filter tips. If a reliable witness saw him at X:XX o'clock, then they could easily filter out any tips before X:XX o'clock.
In a case like this, tips are sure to be pouring in. They need tips! But out of those thousands of tips, only one or two are likely to be the relevant ones. The less manpower they have to put into sorting out some tips, the more manpower they have left to go through the remaining tips.
It is obvious that timing is crucial in this case. If a perpetrator is ever charged and the case goes to trial, a lot could ride on the exact timing of events versus alibis.
As it is, say they find that a stranger abducted Kyron at 8:45 am. Who would be one of the star witnesses for the defence? Kyron's deskmate, whose grandmother foolishly put him on TV. That child could have made a very innocent mistake, like mistaking the time he saw Kyron. Or he may be trying too hard to help the grownups. But a defence attorney would use his appearances to build a reasonable doubt (as is constitutionally allowed, of course).
tlcya
06-16-2010, 11:40 AM
Raeann, the thank you button did not seem enough. ITA with your blood in the water analogy.
It is so hard not knowing and it makes sleuthing next to imposible whe you have so little info to go on but I have a great deal of respect for LE and am glad they are playing their cards so close to the vest. Does it thwart my "need to know" what's going on in this case? You betcha. Can I live with that if it keeps the focus on finding out what happened with Kyron? Without a doubt!
Emma Peel
06-16-2010, 11:40 AM
I think an arrest will be made sooner than you think.
That would be nice SWA. And I know you've alluded that this is your feeling before. Would you please share what leads you to your opinion with the forum? It's a hopeful opinion and we could all use some hope!
DidionFan
06-16-2010, 11:41 AM
I never remember LE coming out and ruling the Walsh parents out and I don't even remember them doing so in Paulie Klass' case even though Mark Klass said later that he had taken a poly and passed but I don't even think LE revealed that at the time when they had not found the real suspect.
I know they didn't do it in the Lunsford or Greone case either.
IMO
I wanted to post a "thank you" on this. It reminded me....I was 16 I think, and my sister had just moved her family from Petaluma just before Polly was taken. Mark Klass if I recall was never publicly ruled out during the investigations, and - going off memory - I think was even scrutinized by some during it all, and it was one of the most dignifying aspects of that case, to me even at 16. He seemed to have a most remarkable ability to take any punch, as part of the process of finding his daughter. Our whole family was devastated during that ordeal.
elle1919
06-16-2010, 11:41 AM
Do you have a link where LE said that Ellie? I must have missed that.
I know recently LE said they are not ruling out an abduction. There was a link to that on the last thread somewhere.
IMO
I found this: http://www.kptv.com/news/23886542/detail.html
and I know we discussed it more in-depth here: OR OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #14 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community.. in the first few pages of the thread
when LE stated Kyron's investigation was becoming a criminal investigation. I think the actually wording of the former Portland police captain was that it was not likely a stranger to stranger abduction.
Sherbie
06-16-2010, 11:43 AM
I would think probably safety. If I were experiencing the vehemence the stepmother is right now, and I were any of the four of them, I would definitely avoid crowds and situations in which I were not physically protected, particularly if I had other children to take care of.
Same here. With a constant LE presence at their home, the isolation at the vigil and, if accurate, undercover agents being present for that (someone posted that here last night), I am beginning to believe a serious threat has been made against this family.
If that's the case, I suppose such a threat could come from a nutjob unrelated to the case or from an abductor, or there could have been information uncovered in the investigation that makes LE believe the family are in danger. Just a thought, but it might explain some things we've been wondering about.
Deeemdee
06-16-2010, 11:45 AM
A keeper to serve as a good reminder to me and everyone else:
"Never Assume Anything"
http://www.stlmag.com/media/St-Louis-Magazine/April-2007/Never-Assume-Anything/
Emma Peel
06-16-2010, 11:45 AM
About the private way the 4 parents attended the public vigil, avoided media, and rely upon LE's bubble of protection:
At least they've been consistent.
As has been LE.
I'm going to think about why for while - and with a broader lens.
None of us our fools regarding what the simplest interpretation of this behavior can be. But LE has not really behaved in a manner that lends itself to any simple interpretion. IMO
Trident
06-16-2010, 11:46 AM
I think an arrest will be made sooner than you think.
I hope you're right; I don't believe anyone can take much more of this.
On another note, I have a simple observation, do with it what you will. We have learned the sm took Kyron to school that morning and they were there at roughly 8 AM. I believe the picture was taken about 8:15 AM, could be off a minute or two. The point is - SM being there so early would have been able to get a "choice" parking spot as opposed to those who came later or those who had to park in the street.
Simply an observation.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 11:47 AM
BBM.
Does anyone know what time the bus stopped at Kyron's house that afternoon?
Apologies up front, but I don't remember WHERE the white truck was seen.
If anyone could point me to that information I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
3:30 p.m. Terri Horman goes to meet the school bus and discovers that Kyron has been absent all day.
3:46 p.m. Skyline School secretary Susan Hall places a call to 9-1-1 about Kyron being missing.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
A white truck driven by a lady was seen by Jim Kelley and his neighbor Fri at 3 pm and Sat at 2 am near his home off of Cornelius Pass
"We had two odd sightings of a vehicle on our road Friday," Kelley said. Around 3 p.m., he and a neighbor reported seeing a white pick-up truck with a female driver pull to the end of the long road, idle and then turn around. Then again at 2 a.m. Saturday morning, a similar white pickup truck appeared, idled and when a neighbor loosed her dogs, eased away.
"A, it was strange to have a car there, any car there, that we didn't know, and B, it was strange to have a vehicle come down our dead-end road twice in the same day, hours after a little boy goes missing," said Kelley. "That's beyond rare."
Kelley said authorities have twice searched the deep ravine, creek and railroad tracks located near the end of his street by air and on foot.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
SoCalSleuth
06-16-2010, 11:48 AM
That would be nice SWA. And I know you've alluded that this is you feeling before. Would you please share what leads you to your opinion with the forum? It's a hopeful opinion and we could all use some hope!
I'm with SWA that an arrest will be forthcoming. I think once they find Kyron it will be almost immediately. I think EmmaPeel hit the nail on the head last night when she posted that the media is sticking by where they believe the "action" (sorry can't think of a better word) will be. I'm going with the probabilities and stats. One thing I learned long ago with these types of cases is the KISS principle normally applies.
DidionFan
06-16-2010, 11:50 AM
For reference, that was the June 7th noon press conference. I don't have all the pressers memorized - I just happened to be looking at it yesterday for something else. :)
Thank you, BeanE - by the way, you do a great job!
reposting posting June 7 presses link
http://www.kgw.com/video/featured-videos/Capt-Gates-Kyron-were-gonna-get-you-home-buddy-95794974.html
elle1919
06-16-2010, 11:52 AM
I'm with SWA that an arrest will be forthcoming. I think once they find Kyron it will be almost immediately. I think EmmaPeel hit the nail on the head last night when she posted that the media is sticking by where they believe the "action" (sorry can't think of a better word) will be. I'm going with the probabilities and stats. One thing I learned long ago with these types of cases is the KISS principle normally applies.
Never heard of that, KISS, what does that stand for? TIA
Never mind I just googled...lol. I agree!
Calliope
06-16-2010, 11:53 AM
One reason not to specify the last time a reliable eyewitness saw Kyron is to help filter tips. If a reliable witness saw him at X:XX o'clock, then they could easily filter out any tips before X:XX o'clock.
In a case like this, tips are sure to be pouring in. They need tips! But out of those thousands of tips, only one or two are likely to be the relevant ones. The less manpower they have to put into sorting out some tips, the more manpower they have left to go through the remaining tips.
It is obvious that timing is crucial in this case. If a perpetrator is ever charged and the case goes to trial, a lot could ride on the exact timing of events versus alibis.
As it is, say they find that a stranger abducted Kyron at 8:45 am. Who would be one of the star witnesses for the defence? Kyron's deskmate, whose grandmother foolishly put him on TV. That child could have made a very innocent mistake, like mistaking the time he saw Kyron. Or he may be trying too hard to help the grownups. But a defence attorney would use his appearances to build a reasonable doubt (as is constitutionally allowed, of course).
Very, very good points.
I want to know the facts just to satisfy my own curiosity about what happened. But I'm perfectly content for LE to keep their mouths shut tightly on this one. I want to see Kyron returned home safe, but I know this is unlikely. So what I want more than anything else is for the person(s) who did this to him to be put away for the rest of their life. I want nothing to compromise that, no matter how frustrating it may be.
SoCalSleuth
06-16-2010, 11:53 AM
Never heard of that, KISS, what does that stand for? TIA
Never mind I just googled...lol. I agree!
Keep It Simple Stupid
LotsaLatte
06-16-2010, 11:54 AM
Maybe the family was in a private room at the vigil for any number of reasons. Devastation would be one. I cannot imagine how horrible this must be. I'm not sure I'd even be able to function if I was mom (I'm only saying that because I am a mom.) Or maybe they were observing everyone there - anyone that they may have forgotten to mention to LE that may be involved, anyone they suspect may be involved, watching behavior, etc. Or again, for their own protection from anyone that might start problems with a family member or just because I think I'd go over the edge at this point with any well wishes. It's got to be so difficult to function. Perhaps LE asked them to watch and point out anything that could be a lead. I feel horrible for them and am so sad that Kyron isn't home yet.
worriedmommy
06-16-2010, 11:56 AM
Someone yesterday was asking if they were still searching around Sauvie's...
From yesterday's news here in Portland (KGW):
"...Meantime, investigators had intensified their search in the area of Sauvie Island. From KGW's Sky 8 helicopter, searchers in wetsuits were seen moving through waist-high water while someone on shore provided directions. A dive team searched swamps and ponds around the rural NW Portland area, and crews also searched around the Multnomah Channel. Investigators would not say what led them to this area, but it was the fourth consecutive days that crews scoured Sauvie Island."
http://www.nwcn.com/news/oregon/Police-hope-billboards-small-clues-will-lead-to-Kyron-Horman-96475549.html
seeking truth
06-16-2010, 11:57 AM
3:30 p.m. Terri Horman goes to meet the school bus and discovers that Kyron has been absent all day.
3:46 p.m. Skyline School secretary Susan Hall places a call to 9-1-1 about Kyron being missing.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
A white truck driven by a lady was seen by Jim Kelley and his neighbor Fri at 3 pm and Sat at 2 am near his home off of Cornelius Pass
"We had two odd sightings of a vehicle on our road Friday," Kelley said. Around 3 p.m., he and a neighbor reported seeing a white pick-up truck with a female driver pull to the end of the long road, idle and then turn around. Then again at 2 a.m. Saturday morning, a similar white pickup truck appeared, idled and when a neighbor loosed her dogs, eased away.
"A, it was strange to have a car there, any car there, that we didn't know, and B, it was strange to have a vehicle come down our dead-end road twice in the same day, hours after a little boy goes missing," said Kelley. "That's beyond rare."
Kelley said authorities have twice searched the deep ravine, creek and railroad tracks located near the end of his street by air and on foot.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
Thank you so much, BeanE. What an in-depth answer to my questions. I truly appreciate this.
seeking
BeanE
06-16-2010, 11:57 AM
Has the area of J Kelley's home off Cornelius Pass been mapped in comparison of location and time to drive to Kyron's bus stop?
==========================
3pm white truck driven by a lady seen by Jim K and his neighbor near Jim's home off Cornelius Pass. Truck pulled to the end of a long road, idled, then turned around. At 2am Saturday morning, a similar truck appeared and idled, and when a neighbor turned her dogs loose, the truck eased away.
3:30pm Hormans go to the school bus stop and discover that Kyron is not on the bus.
3:46pm School secretary calls 911.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
Emma Peel
06-16-2010, 12:00 PM
Kaine, in his e-mail says "we" as to going to get Kyron off the bus, calling the school, etc.. The scanners picked up a reference to the parents being instructed that at least one of them needed to wait for police back at their house.
This was also a weekend that Kyron was going AWAY himself, to be with his other set of parents. He was (likely - assuming again) scheduled to leave soon after he got off the bus.
Assume for the sake of a brief discussion that both mom & dad were waiting for Kyron.
Dad might be waiting because he makes it a point to be there to say goodbye to Kyron when it's time for his away weekend.
Who else knew that Kyron was leaving town as soon as he got off that bus, and therefore, they only had Friday, and only while Kyron was at school to take Kyron? (Otherwise he'd be gone for the w/e)
Two days ago, I posted about 4 big things that stick in my craw. I might have to add this as the 5th thing - the fact that Kyron went missing from school just before he was scheduled to leave town for the weekend.
I also recall that in one of the Press Conferences, when LE was asked what Kyron had been looking forward to doing - an answer in the immediate factual snese, was sidestepped. Because, in all likelihood, he'd been "looking forward" to a weekend with Desiree. Rather than discuss Kyron's expectations for the weekend, they talked about activities Kyron like to do.
I am mulling this and other things today as you can see... anyone can mull along if they like...
raeann
06-16-2010, 12:00 PM
I really hope EVERYONE who was in that school that morning,who knows Kyron personally (or indirectly from his school i.e. a parent) has been questioned and thoroughly checked out, especially if they left the school after or during the science fair (teachers, parents, G. Zimmerman, supply teachers, custodians, etc). Anyone who was seen speaking to Kyron at all that morning at the school needs to be investigated. I can't BELIEVE this is taking so long to announce a POI. Where is Kyron????
Problem here is, they will NEVER, ever know who all was in the school that day. There was no tracking the crowd by any means, anyone could have walked in, and if they are the POI, its not likely they will be saying "hey, yeah, I was there that day, check me out". Then again, if it was a staff member or other parent, or relative of a child......they aren't going to offer up the correct information about what they did or where they went.
jmoo
watchful_eye
06-16-2010, 12:01 PM
I want to know the facts just to satisfy my own curiosity about what happened. But I'm perfectly content for LE to keep their mouths shut tightly on this one. I want to see Kyron returned home safe, but I know this is unlikely. So what I want more than anything else is for the person(s) who did this to him to be put away for the rest of their life. I want nothing to compromise that, no matter how frustrating it may be.
AMEN! Totally agree.
seeking truth
06-16-2010, 12:04 PM
Does anyone know if the Hormans made their own call to 911?
Is it just possible or probable that they were informed that the school made the call, so they felt that they did not need to make an emergency call themselves?
Or, has nothing been released regarding whether or not Terri or Kaine Horman made a 911 call?
Thanks in advance.
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 12:05 PM
I found this: http://www.kptv.com/news/23886542/detail.html
and I know we discussed it more in-depth here: OR OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #14 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106683).. in the first few pages of the thread
when LE stated Kyron's investigation was becoming a criminal investigation. I think the actually wording of the former Portland police captain was that it was not likely a stranger to stranger abduction.
Thank you Elle. So it wasn't the investigating officers after all who are actually investigating Kyron's case that said it.
I know I read a link here last night where the Kyron investigators said they were not ruling out an abduction.
imo
Wise Old Owl
06-16-2010, 12:05 PM
Ok - I think this is ok to post.
Here's a map from the property appraisers sight - so its credible.
It is mapping the address of the person who spotted the white truck.
The Horman's live on Sheltered Nook Road.
You can also see the Skyline Blvd and its relative distance.
Take it for what you will.
http://www.portlandmaps.com/detail.cfm?action=Explorer&ZoomLevel=10&propertyid=R164664&state_id=2N1W30BC%20%20600&address_id=745335&intersection_id=&dynamic_point=0&x=7597299.597&y=724840.988&place=18212%20NW%206TH%20AVE&city=MULTNOMAH%20COUNTY&neighborhood=&seg_id=100375
ETA - you have to zoom out to see Sheltered Nook and Skyline
AmandaReckonwith
06-16-2010, 12:06 PM
Kyron Horman case archive album
http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Kyron%20Horman%20%20-OR-/
Emma Peel
06-16-2010, 12:06 PM
I'm with SWA that an arrest will be forthcoming. I think once they find Kyron it will be almost immediately. I think EmmaPeel hit the nail on the head last night when she posted that the media is sticking by where they believe the "action" (sorry can't think of a better word) will be. I'm going with the probabilities and stats. One thing I learned long ago with these types of cases is the KISS principle normally applies.
LOL, I see what you mean. I did say "action". But when I said "action" I simply meant where media might be best be able to watch LE moves and/or hit up LE on this case for info. The sherriff's office parking lot, and the driveway/mailbox area of the Kaine's street. I also expect them to have a tail on the DA's office and the DA's comings and goings, and LE"s comings and goings into that office.
Still, what you say is true and I had a case of the hinkies for sure last night. :eek:
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 12:09 PM
Problem here is, they will NEVER, ever know who all was in the school that day. There was no tracking the crowd by any means, anyone could have walked in, and if they are the POI, its not likely they will be saying "hey, yeah, I was there that day, check me out". Then again, if it was a staff member or other parent, or relative of a child......they aren't going to offer up the correct information about what they did or where they went.
jmoo
As I sit here and hope for good news everyday I just can't shake that Raeann.
How in the world are they ever going to know who all was really there when they didn't even have a visitors list? How could they have allowed just anyone and everyone inside that school? I just don't understand it.
IMO
DidionFan
06-16-2010, 12:10 PM
Ok - I think this is ok to post.
Here's a map from the property appraisers sight - so its credible.
It is mapping the address of the person who spotted the white truck.
The Horman's live on Sheltered Nook Road.
You can also see the Skyline Blvd and its relative distance.
Take it for what you will.
http://www.portlandmaps.com/detail.cfm?action=Explorer&ZoomLevel=10&propertyid=R164664&state_id=2N1W30BC%20%20600&address_id=745335&intersection_id=&dynamic_point=0&x=7597299.597&y=724840.988&place=18212%20NW%206TH%20AVE&city=MULTNOMAH%20COUNTY&neighborhood=&seg_id=100375
ETA - you have to zoom out to see Sheltered Nook and Skyline
Thank you!
PS - not liking that this truck appeared at these times....and idled.
JustToSeeYouSmile
06-16-2010, 12:11 PM
This case is eerily similar to the Etan Patz case. The length of time that it took Etan's mom to know that he never made it to school b/c she was not notified was crucial.
O/T - one of our managers at the law firm were I work was just let go b/c it turns out he was a sex offender. He worked there for two years and the firm supposedly does background checks on all employees. The reason why it was found out was because another employee did a simple google of his name and there it was for all too see: rape in the first degree and a sodomy charge. Although he is 49 now and this crime was committed when he was 18 he was let go. The crime was in Florida and our firm is in NYC. Sometimes employees do not do thorough background checks even though they say they do. I know that most board of eds fingerprint their employees but I would double check every single employee at the school including contractors and vendors.
I was thinking about this too...the way background checks are done. Not really O/T at all, considering Kyron disappeared from a public school. Thinking about it, I realized we have been active in two specific organizations (involving children exclusively) that by law background check everyone who is staff or volunteer annually. We've been a part of these organizations for 15+ years. They used to background check us annually...but since everyone knows us now, they just push the paperwork through- without actually doing the check in order to save on costs.
We don't have any criminal history...but what if we did?
After inquiring about this of the organizations we belong to, it seems this is rather common practice.
Alarming, when you are talking about environments exclusive to children.
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 12:14 PM
I hope you're right; I don't believe anyone can take much more of this.
On another note, I have a simple observation, do with it what you will. We have learned the sm took Kyron to school that morning and they were there at roughly 8 AM. I believe the picture was taken about 8:15 AM, could be off a minute or two. The point is - SM being there so early would have been able to get a "choice" parking spot as opposed to those who came later or those who had to park in the street.
Simply an observation.
And to me that means her vehicle would be more easily seen. I don't think she drove a truck to the school that day. I think she drove up in her bright RED mustang which stands out. My brother has one and he has to take his kids projects to school and has no problem with getting it in his vehicle and some of the exhibits are quite large.
IMO
Jules_SA
06-16-2010, 12:16 PM
my hand's up!
I also have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other. Neither option (nor the ones in between) makes me feel any better, by the way. What I'd like doesn't involve either, and too much time has gone for me to think of anything else but those spectrums. Just sadness and prayers, and grasping on to the hope for miracles that do happen.
We can't really sleuth so prayers and hope is about all we have left to offer. Miracles do happen. Amen to that.
That would be nice SWA. And I know you've alluded that this is your feeling before. Would you please share what leads you to your opinion with the forum? It's a hopeful opinion and we could all use some hope!
My opinion is based on the fact that I have tremendous faith in the abilities of LE and the FBI. I would assume that when Kyron is located -- an arrest will be made shortly after. (Based on my opinion that LE has their POI)
Seeing how I believe though this was a calculated plan though -- it's not going to be "that" easy to find his body. I'm guessing that some thought went into where to place it -- so it wouldn't be found.
Arrests normally aren't made in cases like this until a body is found. Scott Peterson wasn't arrested until Laci was found and identified.
Trident
06-16-2010, 12:17 PM
And to me that means her vehicle would be more easily seen. I don't think she drove a truck to the school that day. I think she drove up in her bright RED mustang which stands out. My brother has one and he has to take his kids projects to school and has no problem with getting it in his vehicle and some of the exhibits are quite large.
IMO
Doesn't matter if it was "seen", she had every right to be there. Point is/was getting there early would insure a good parking spot.
belimom
06-16-2010, 12:17 PM
The white truck... Even though I'm leaning toward family or maybe school staff (even if peripheral), I'm beginning to have my doubts that the white truck was being driven by the stepmom. She has long vibrant red hair and would be easily identifiable... :twocents:
Calliope
06-16-2010, 12:19 PM
Problem here is, they will NEVER, ever know who all was in the school that day. There was no tracking the crowd by any means, anyone could have walked in, and if they are the POI, its not likely they will be saying "hey, yeah, I was there that day, check me out". Then again, if it was a staff member or other parent, or relative of a child......they aren't going to offer up the correct information about what they did or where they went.
jmoo
bouncing off your point, IIRC LE said in one of the latter press conferences that they had completed interviews with 100% of the students. There's no way they can state they interviewed everyone who was present.
Wise Old Owl
06-16-2010, 12:19 PM
To be arrested WITHOUT a body takes a Grand Jury - IIRC Peterson was arrested before they found Lacy (it was within hours or just a day - I could be wrong but I know the two events were very close)
KC was arrested and charged with 1st degree murder with NO body. Caylee wasn't found for another month or so.
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 12:19 PM
She may have drove the truck that morning to the school.Maybe she could not fit his exhibit in the car if it was too big.
gliving
06-16-2010, 12:20 PM
Kyron on the cover of People Magazine.
Pardon the link to perezhilton.com but it's the only place I can find it.
http://perezhilton.com/2010-06-16-yes-yes-yes-4
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 12:21 PM
Doesn't matter if it was "seen", she had every right to be there. Point is/was getting there early would insure a good parking spot.
You are exactly right Trident.
And if she was seen leaving with Kyron this case would have been over shortly after it began.
IMO
tlcya
06-16-2010, 12:23 PM
No one says you can't talk Zaha. Diferent thoughts, opinions, theories are welcome, so long as they comply with TOS and are respectful. Have at it.
SoCalSleuth
06-16-2010, 12:24 PM
To be arrested WITHOUT a body takes a Grand Jury - IIRC Peterson was arrested before they found Lacy (it was within hours or just a day - I could be wrong but I know the two events were very close)
KC was arrested and charged with 1st degree murder with NO body. Caylee wasn't found for another month or so.
Scott Peterson was arrested after they located the body, I remember it clearly because it happened here in San Diego where I live. I agree with SWA that as soon as they locate him there will be an arrest--for the same reason they waited to arrest Scott until they located the body--they had evidence Scott was in the area where the body was located. Here, I believe they are searching per the POI's cell phone pings--once they match the body location to those pings there will be an arrest.
x_files
06-16-2010, 12:25 PM
As I sit here and hope for good news everyday I just can't shake that Raeann.
How in the world are they ever going to know who all was really there when they didn't even have a visitors list? How could they have allowed just anyone and everyone inside that school? I just don't understand it.
IMO
It's irresponsible and the school will be held accountable. I hope they changed their policy.
Calliope
06-16-2010, 12:25 PM
The white truck... Even though I'm leaning toward family or maybe school staff (even if peripheral), I'm beginning to have my doubts that the white truck was being driven by the stepmom. She has long vibrant red hair and would be easily identifiable... :twocents:
Not only that, but I think her involvement in the school (and the school being so small) would make it likely she'd be seen and recognized had she been there after 8:45ish.
Katarina
06-16-2010, 12:25 PM
My personal opinions on this case swing from the far left to the far right as I read the few facts that we have confirmed. I accept that LE owes us, Joe Public, absolutely nothing ito information, especially when they know that it could jeaopardize the case. But I feel positively Bipolar the way my opinion keeps swinging like a pendulum from one possibility to another on the opposite side.
We KNOW it's a CONFIRMED isolated incident and we KNOW LE said they didn't suspect it was a stranger abduction. But that grey area in between is driving me nuts.
Hands up any of those who feel completely frustrated by this case. Because, at the end of the day, Kyron is still missing. And nobody (that matters anyway) knows where he is.
:(
Originally they said it's an isolated incident, but at the NBC piece where the sheriff is questioned ( standing in front of Skyline) he says "No Comment" the the isolated incident question
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 12:25 PM
I'm curious what did the SM bring Kyrons project in?
Emma Peel
06-16-2010, 12:27 PM
My opinion is based on the fact that I have tremendous faith in the abilities of LE and the FBI. I would assume that when Kyron is located -- an arrest will be made shortly after. (Based on my opinion that LE has their POI)
Seeing how I believe though this was a calculated plan though -- it's not going to be "that" easy to find his body. I'm guessing that some thought went into where to place it -- so it wouldn't be found.
Arrests normally aren't made in cases like this until a body is found. Scott Peterson wasn't arrested until Laci was found and identified.
And no one's been arrested in Haleigh's case either, at least not for Haleigh's presumed death - because there is no body.
Faith that LE was there early and with high numbers and high level of skills is something that keeps me hopeful as well.
Sometimes the family & POI behavior make me think they have a good idea of POI too, but then I think about things such as the investment in billboards ... Are those to get more eye-witnesses for a circumstantial case? To sensitize folks in summer to be vigilant if they come across remains? *shakes head*
It's the "arrest sooner than we think" part - I'm not so hopeful on that sentiment at the moment.
I think an arrest will be made sooner than you think.
I wish I had your confidence, swa. I'm still catching up from last night but have not seen mentioned today the billboard array donated by Clear Channel.
Clear Channel donates billboards to help bring Kyron Horman home (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/clear_channel_donates_billboar.html)
Clear Channel Outdoor of Oregon and Southwest Washington donated materials and space for the 30 billboards today in an effort to help bring Kyron Horman home.
Ten of the billboards are written in English, 10 in Russian and 10 in Spanish, according to Lt. Mary Lindstrand, a Multnomah County sheriff's spokeswoman.
All of the billboards except two in English were put up today.
Reannan
06-16-2010, 12:28 PM
My opinion is based on the fact that I have tremendous faith in the abilities of LE and the FBI. I would assume that when Kyron is located -- an arrest will be made shortly after. (Based on my opinion that LE has their POI)
I truly feel LE has a really good idea by now of what happened to Kyron. I am going to bet an arrest won't be made until sometime in late August or early September. For some reason, it just seems to take about three months to process evidence and make sure all questions have been answered so that the outcome of the trial is solid. I rememeber how LE was acting during the Devon Epps invesitgation back in 2007. The entire world knew the biological mother, Amanda Reagan Smith had murdered him. LE stood by her, calmy insisted they were investigating all possible tips, and that they had no reason to not believe her story. She also did strange stuff with her MySpace account and if I recall, she didn't go to the first vigil - and then she got in an arugment at one of the others.. I was proud to see that Websleuth members doubted the story in the VERY first posting. Englishleigh was the first to comment after the story was posted, and her comment was "Ummm....yeah, right....this doesn't pass the smell test. Sounds like another Susan Smith to me, for now.". It is sort of interesting to go back and read a case like that one when analyzing a case like this one. Here is a link to the Devon Epps thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52327&highlight=devon+epps
SoCalSleuth
06-16-2010, 12:29 PM
I wish I had your confidence, swa. I'm still catching up from last night but have not seen mentioned today the billboard array donated by Clear Channel.
Clear Channel donates billboards to help bring Kyron Horman home (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/clear_channel_donates_billboar.html)
Clear Channel Outdoor of Oregon and Southwest Washington donated materials and space for the 30 billboards today in an effort to help bring Kyron Horman home.
Ten of the billboards are written in English, 10 in Russian and 10 in Spanish, according to Lt. Mary Lindstrand, a Multnomah County sheriff's spokeswoman.
All of the billboards except two in English were put up today.
Clear Channel isn't LE.
tiredblondy
06-16-2010, 12:29 PM
SoCal...What is the KISS Principle? Thanks
Trident
06-16-2010, 12:29 PM
You are exactly right Trident.
And if she was seen leaving with Kyron this case would have been over shortly after it began.
IMO
NO ONE was seen leaving with Kyron as far as I know, but obviously he did leave with someone unless he's still in the school or, contrary to the criminal investigation announcement, wandered off all by his own self.
Several things Id like to clear up in my mind.
The white truck...
Is there a written transcript somewhere about the white truck sightings? Maybe a call to LE saying a smaller truck, larger truck, loud diesel truck, etc?
Theres quite a difference in say a small ford Ranger and a large dually or something.
How many vehicles do the Horman's own? *Is this one of their primary vehicles?
The second sighting was at 2am Saturday morning. Can we rule out the SM driving it at that time? It was dark, how was the caller sure it was a female driver?
laini
06-16-2010, 12:30 PM
I am very curious why the neighbor's house was searched!
Jersey*Girl
06-16-2010, 12:30 PM
I was thinking about this too...the way background checks are done. Not really O/T at all, considering Kyron disappeared from a public school. Thinking about it, I realized we have been active in two specific organizations (involving children exclusively) that by law background check everyone who is staff or volunteer annually. We've been a part of these organizations for 15+ years. They used to background check us annually...but since everyone knows us now, they just push the paperwork through- without actually doing the check in order to save on costs.
We don't have any criminal history...but what if we did?
After inquiring about this of the organizations we belong to, it seems this is rather common practice.
Alarming, when you are talking about environments exclusive to children.
Funny you should say this. Well guess what? Our local LL tells every single person that signs up to volunteer manage, coach, work in the stand, do grounds keeping, or be on the board that they are doing a background check. Everyone has to sign their consent on a form. They are then supposed to send it away for a thorough background check. Yeah, right... Get this: There's a guy that lives down the street from me, he coaches 2 of his sons' in LL. He's not a manager, but he's a coach. He's been helping for 2 years now. Well my boys stopped playing LL when they started to get more competetive so I had no need to go to the LL fields over the past couple of years, except to stop every once in awhile. I went to see a game last month & noticed this guy was coaching & I threw a fit...discreetly. I called the pres & told him I couldn't believe he allowed this guy to coach with his background & he said what are you talking about he passed a background check! I said LIE, he served 10 years in jail for starting fires in the town next to where we live...I know this for a fact bc my ex fiancee was the arresting lead detective in his case! Come to find out, they said they never got the reports back for any of the background checks! In my eyes, they probably never sent them off to begin with! And to make matters even worse, I recently found out that this guy happened to be on the LL Board in the same stinking town that he started those fires in! OMG! I mean...seriously now?
Maybe background checks are done but take longer to receive? You'd think major companies, especially school districts, would subscribe to some sort of online background check something or other! You know, the ones where they can see the info right off the bat! I'm so sick over this little boy...over all these little innocent kids going missing & violated! Grown ups need to be more responsible. Period.
Additional info: I'm stating this bc it's been said that a teacher or volunteer in Oregon had a past & was still holding their position yet they violated more children... I'm hoping beyond hope that thorough background checks were performed on all employees, including volunteers, of the Skyline School. That in itself could alleveiate some suspicion of a school employee.
SoCalSleuth
06-16-2010, 12:30 PM
SoCal...What is the KISS Principle? Thanks
Keep It Simple Stupid
Kaine, in his e-mail says "we" as to going to get Kyron off the bus, calling the school, etc.. The scanners picked up a reference to the parents being instructed that at least one of them needed to wait for police back at their house.
This was also a weekend that Kyron was going AWAY himself, to be with his other set of parents. He was (likely - assuming again) scheduled to leave soon after he got off the bus.
Assume for the sake of a brief discussion that both mom & dad were waiting for Kyron.
Dad might be waiting because he makes it a point to be there to say goodbye to Kyron when it's time for his away weekend.
Who else knew that Kyron was leaving town as soon as he got off that bus, and therefore, they only had Friday, and only while Kyron was at school to take Kyron? (Otherwise he'd be gone for the w/e)
Two days ago, I posted about 4 big things that stick in my craw. I might have to add this as the 5th thing - the fact that Kyron went missing from school just before he was scheduled to leave town for the weekend.
I also recall that in one of the Press Conferences, when LE was asked what Kyron had been looking forward to doing - an answer in the immediate factual snese, was sidestepped. Because, in all likelihood, he'd been "looking forward" to a weekend with Desiree. Rather than discuss Kyron's expectations for the weekend, they talked about activities Kyron like to do.
I am mulling this and other things today as you can see... anyone can mull along if they like...
Emma, interesting thinking; I haven't seen that put forward before, about being away for the weekend as a motivator.
About the last part, and without digging out the transcript, I interpreted that differently. I was transcribing the PC where the questions/answer to the family were being read by Shults and the question was 'what was Kyron looking forward to doing this summer?' and the answer came back 'Kyron is looking forward to.. ' and a list of activities the family had planned (typical summer stuff incl a trip to mom's, a trip to Shasta, etc).
Or, are you mulling a different conversation? I'm doing some mulling today. :)
Y'all don't want me to relay the nightmare Princess PeePee just relayed. Suffice to say that discussing stranger danger with your child isn't nearly enough. Establishing defensive moves is also necessary.
Now I'd like to go cry because her nightmare has been my nightmare since it nearly happened to me when I was her age. CRIMINY!!!
ITA! All the more reason that basic self-defense should be taught in the schools. I'd rather see that then the two weeks of roller skating they do here.
I haven't figured out how to bold things yet:waitasec:, but hope you guys know what I'm referring to.
Wise Old Owl
06-16-2010, 12:33 PM
As I understand it the Horman's have 2 vehicles. The red Mustang that's hers and the white truck that's his.
We simply don't know what vehicle she drove that morning - one way or the other.
I am very curious about these two sightings now that we have a white truck towed (to a dealership for "werk") and seeing the realtive distances of the sightings to the home and school.
As for the 2AM sighting - could LE have been taking someone around to see where they possibly ran "errands" that day? Or could someone have said they were going out for milk, diapers, cigs, that night? (RUMOR - Just speculation and JMHO)
laytonian
06-16-2010, 12:34 PM
I'm finding many things about this case just odd.
Vigil a symbol of hope for Kyron’s safe return (http://www.katu.com/news/local/96450854.html)
Kyron’s parents and stepparents watched the vigil from a private room.
:waitasec:
I cannot even imagine what the motive could be to not want to be surrounded by and touched by people who have their beautiful son in their hearts.
Not everyone in that crowd, may have warm thoughts for the family.
Many don't believe vigils are productive, and serve only as a publicity outlet for the organizers. Some believe vigils help; others don't. Both POVs are valid.
Also, please remember that IF LE supports the vigil, there may be a reason for LE to scan that crowd - with the family watching from a private room, to ID anyone via video. "An arsonist returns to the scene of the fire."
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 12:35 PM
The 2 white truck sightings may have been of different vehicles.I think that because one was seen at night time?
raeann
06-16-2010, 12:36 PM
She may have drove the truck that morning to the school.Maybe she could not fit his exhibit in the car if it was too big.
LOL.....my daughter has a little red car just like that one, she can fit five suitcases, a couple dozen hanging clothes, a computer, several makeup and hair equipment bags, backpacks full of books, and about 40 pairs of shoes in it......and that was just to come home for Christmas break!
Emma Peel
06-16-2010, 12:36 PM
oh thanks for that.
I did not recall the "this summer". I'll have to find the right PC. I wasn't sure if it was the e-mailed Q&A PC or the 1st PC with the parents. Maybe that first PC with the parents had no Q/A? Thanks!
Let's keep on mulling!
Emma, interesting thinking; I haven't seen that put forward before, about being away for the weekend as a motivator.
About the last part, and without digging out the transcript, I interpreted that differently. I was transcribing the PC where the questions/answer to the family were being read by Shults and the question was 'what was Kyron looking forward to doing this summer?' and the answer came back 'Kyron is looking forward to.. ' and a list of activities the family had planned (typical summer stuff incl a trip to mom's, a trip to Shasta, etc).
Or, are you mulling a different conversation? I'm doing some mulling today. :)
DidionFan
06-16-2010, 12:38 PM
I had doubts that things were getting narrowed down when I read about the billboards, too - but it was a donation from Clear, right? LE's not going to tell Clear: Thanks, but we're alright on this one. Plus, the more exposure of Kyron's face, the better for anyone to come forward with more collaborating tips on anything that was seen...I don't think the fact that billboards are going up can indicate the direction Kyron's search is going...
tk71texas
06-16-2010, 12:39 PM
it's a rumor so we can't discuss it
Jules_SA
06-16-2010, 12:39 PM
Originally they said it's an isolated incident, but at the NBC piece where the sheriff is questioned ( standing in front of Skyline) he says "No Comment" the the isolated incident question
Thanks for the update, Katarina. I hadn't seen it.
Maybe we could take a HUGE leap and assume that LE no longer wanted to comment on the "isolated incident" statement because they realised it restricted the appearance of the case.
When they termed it an "isolated incident" it cut so many possibilities out of the equation. Maybe they don't want us to know that. Or, once again, maybe we're all just reading too much into the little bit of info that we have.
Hands up for frustration...once again...I feel like I'm chasing my tail.
Kyron, where are you, sweet child?
Jules71
06-16-2010, 12:40 PM
Just catching up today - from what I skimmed it looks like these are the latest things being discussed - anything else?
Horman's white truck was towed by their request to the dealership for mechanical repairs on Mon (was that the 7th of June)?
House across the street from the Horman's was searched. Are we allowed to sleuth that neighbor (look at address search, parcel search, etc)?
Approx 400 people attended the candlelight vigil last night.
I also see people are still speculating on what the SM drove to school that day. She could very well have driven her red mustang to school with Kyron and then drove the white truck later in the day to run errands - or if Kaine was home from work that day, he could have driven the white truck with or without her to run errands. So many people are discussing what SM was doing - why not what Dad was doing? I am not saying he has something to do with Kyron missing, just curious why people would look so much at SM and not at Dad.
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 12:40 PM
LOL.....my daughter has a little red car just like that one, she can fit five suitcases, a couple dozen hanging clothes, a computer, several makeup and hair equipment bags, backpacks full of books, and about 40 pairs of shoes in it......and that was just to come home for Christmas break!
Maybe whatever she was possibly carrying the project in didn't fit in the car.
seeking truth
06-16-2010, 12:41 PM
At the link below, it is stated:
Kyron showed off his project on the red-eyed tree frog and by 8:45 a.m. Kyron waved goodbye to Horman outside of his classroom. At some point after that, the boy's teacher, Kristina Porter, marked Kyron absent. It was not until 3:30 p.m., when she realized her stepson was not on the school bus, that Horman discovered he had been absent all day. She then called 9-1-1.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
Well, the reporters could have gotten this wrong OR they confirmed that she (Terri Horman) called 9-1-1. It was said in another article that a secretary called 9-1-1; I believe this was when the bus driver radioed in that Kyle was not on the bus and the parents didn't have him.
smart blonde
06-16-2010, 12:41 PM
For anyone thinking that it's 'telling' or 'suspicious' that the parent(s) have not been more prominent in front of the media... just remember Susan Smith, the young mother who stood before the world, begging for the return of her two little sons.
Days later she admitted that she had killed the boys herself, having strapped them into the back seat of her car, and drowned them in a lake.
How much (or how little) time a parent chooses to spend in the spotlight has little bearing on their own guilt or innocence.
TXHOPE
06-16-2010, 12:42 PM
Has the area of J Kelley's home off Cornelius Pass been mapped in comparison of location and time to drive to Kyron's bus stop?
==========================
3pm white truck driven by a lady seen by Jim K and his neighbor near Jim's home off Cornelius Pass. Truck pulled to the end of a long road, idled, then turned around. At 2am Saturday morning, a similar truck appeared and idled, and when a neighbor turned her dogs loose, the truck eased away.
3:30pm Hormans go to the school bus stop and discover that Kyron is not on the bus.
3:46pm School secretary calls 911.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
Hey BeanE I'm still confused about who was at the bus stop. In your other post further up you mention Terri Horman was at the bus stop but in this post you mention the Hormans. Can someone please tell me who was at the bus stop? I went and searched for it and there's a bunch of conflicting posts about it and I didn't see anything that was confimation they were both there but I could of missed it.
Jersey*Girl
06-16-2010, 12:43 PM
LOL.....my daughter has a little red car just like that one, she can fit five suitcases, a couple dozen hanging clothes, a computer, several makeup and hair equipment bags, backpacks full of books, and about 40 pairs of shoes in it......and that was just to come home for Christmas break!
I had to quote this bc it's just so cute & funny...GOSH I MISS MY COLLEGE DAYS!
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 12:43 PM
As I understand it the Horman's have 2 vehicles. The red Mustang that's hers and the white truck that's his.
We simply don't know what vehicle she drove that morning - one way or the other.
I am very curious about these two sightings now that we have a white truck towed (to a dealership for "werk") and seeing the realtive distances of the sightings to the home and school.
As for the 2AM sighting - could LE have been taking someone around to see where they possibly ran "errands" that day? Or could someone have said they were going out for milk, diapers, cigs, that night? (RUMOR - Just speculation and JMHO)
The white truck was his? What did he drive into work with that day? Was he at work? When did he get home?
gliving
06-16-2010, 12:44 PM
I am very curious why the neighbor's house was searched!
I was wondering also. Thought maybe Kyron played on the neighbor's computer and LE wanted to search it for any chat room stuff.
OT Whenever I get to thinking about Kyron, This silly song pops in my head. Just making note here for later reference:
Dailymotion - "The Jetsons" intro (Classic TV) (Retro) - a Film & TV video@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video@@AMEPARAM@@video
TGIRecovered
06-16-2010, 12:45 PM
Funny you should say this. Well guess what? Our local LL tells every single person that signs up to volunteer manage, coach, work in the stand, do grounds keeping, or be on the board that they are doing a background check. Everyone has to sign their consent on a form. They are then supposed to send it away for a thorough background check. Yeah, right... Get this: There's a guy that lives down the street from me, he coaches 2 of his sons' in LL. He's not a manager, but he's a coach. He's been helping for 2 years now. Well my boys stopped playing LL when they started to get more competetive so I had no need to go to the LL fields over the past couple of years, except to stop every once in awhile. I went to see a game last month & noticed this guy was coaching & I threw a fit...discreetly. I called the pres & told him I couldn't believe he allowed this guy to coach with his background & he said what are you talking about he passed a background check! I said LIE, he served 10 years in jail for starting fires in the town next to where we live...I know this for a fact bc my ex fiancee was the arresting lead detective in his case! Come to find out, they said they never got the reports back for any of the background checks! In my eyes, they probably never sent them off to begin with! And to make matters even worse, I recently found out that this guy happened to be on the LL Board in the same stinking town that he started those fires in! OMG! I mean...seriously now?
Maybe background checks are done but take longer to receive? You'd think major companies, especially school districts, would subscribe to some sort of online background check something or other! You know, the ones where they can see the info right off the bat! I'm so sick over this little boy...over all these little innocent kids going missing & violated! Grown ups need to be more responsible. Period.
Additional info: I'm stating this bc it's been said that a teacher or volunteer in Oregon had a past & was still holding their position yet they violated more children... I'm hoping beyond hope that thorough background checks were performed on all employees, including volunteers, of the Skyline School. That in itself could alleveiate some suspicion of a school employee.
The way criminals are encouraged to plead down to lesser charges on a regular basis leads to many dangerous predators avoiding having a sexual or child predatory or voilent crime on their record. Perps don't usually confess unless there is something good on the table. Child sex crimes are often unreported or hard to prove, so by the time one is convicted of one, they most often have done the crime many times over with no or very little official record of it.
This is my opinion, based upon years of reading and following these crimes in the news, and marraige to a member of LE.
Clear Channel isn't LE.
hmm, point taken. :)
I used the assumption that LE had OK'd or somehow coordinated their installation. I should have considered that someone else arranged/encouraged it. CC isn't exactly known for its largess around here, anyway (didn't seem to me like something CC would initiate).
The second sighting was at 2am Saturday morning. Can we rule out the SM driving it at that time?
Wasn't LE staying with the family at that point? Could she or anyone from the home leave in the middle of the night without being noticed?
I haven't figured out how to bold things yet
Highlight the text you want to bold, when you are in the 'reply' box making your comment.
Click the big B at the top left side of the box where you are typing. It will put some 'tags' around your text and when you post, voila, bold. :)
BBM
:eek: What? I missed that. They are doing <text removed>
I had this from a KGW story; looking for a link now.
Calliope
06-16-2010, 12:46 PM
Not everyone in that crowd, may have warm thoughts for the family.
Many don't believe vigils are productive, and serve only as a publicity outlet for the organizers. Some believe vigils help; others don't. Both POVs are valid.
Also, please remember that IF LE supports the vigil, there may be a reason for LE to scan that crowd - with the family watching from a private room, to ID anyone via video. "An arsonist returns to the scene of the fire."
good point. especially if there's any chance Kyron was specifically targeted.
I believe LE would have been there regardless of family attendance.
Emma Peel
06-16-2010, 12:47 PM
I am very curious why the neighbor's house was searched!
me too. I don't recall it being reported that the Horman's neighbor's home was searched before. Maybe Kyron spent time there? It would be great to know if these neighbors had kids/playmates of Kyron...Oh the things that it would be great to know...
BeckyKY
06-16-2010, 12:47 PM
Maybe someone said something about his project that hurt his feelings ?
Maybe he went off into a wooded area to cry and pout , got lost or fell and was hurt. No jacket . Cool weather. That could quickly take its toll on a small child.
I do hope they are still searching the wooded areas near the school.
I did not watch the pressor or the vigil.
If that were my child or grandchild , I would want privacy during the vigil. I'm sure the family was shedding tears. These people are not out selling photos or making book deals. They are genuinely worried and sad.
Wise Old Owl
06-16-2010, 12:48 PM
The white truck was his? What did he drive into work with that day? Was he at work? When did he get home?
Guess I should have clarified my statement - I'm speculating that the truck was his - I read that she got the Mustang for her birthday or Mother's Day or something so concluding the Mustange is hers. The white truck was at the house - we've seen other pics with the white truck there so again (assuming) it must have been his.
There have been absolutely no statements made as to where dad was that day, what he drove, when he left work, if he went to work. Nothing at all.
raeann
06-16-2010, 12:48 PM
Maybe whatever she was possibly carrying the project in didn't fit in the car.
All joking aside, that project was just a trifold poster board that folds up flat to transport, plus a shoe box size diorama. I know for a fact that the back compartment of a Mustang could hold that with no problem without even folding down either side of the back seat of her car, which probably had a baby seat and booster seat in it. Really not even a slight difficulty at all to transport.
Edited to add, even if it would have been easier in the truck. It was a rainy morning, and you don't put a project like that in the back of a wet truck and take a chance on it starting to pour rain while you are driving to school.
gelfie68
06-16-2010, 12:49 PM
I don't know if this thought had been brought up yet. I had a fleeting thought. What if the POI is a LEO or in security? I mean that would change my dynamic of how I looked at the way it is being investigated.
JMO stabbing in the dark here.
Calliope
06-16-2010, 12:49 PM
At the link below, it is stated:
Kyron showed off his project on the red-eyed tree frog and by 8:45 a.m. Kyron waved goodbye to Horman outside of his classroom. At some point after that, the boy's teacher, Kristina Porter, marked Kyron absent. It was not until 3:30 p.m., when she realized her stepson was not on the school bus, that Horman discovered he had been absent all day. She then called 9-1-1.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
Well, the reporters could have gotten this wrong OR they confirmed that she (Terri Horman) called 9-1-1. It was said in another article that a secretary called 9-1-1; I believe this was when the bus driver radioed in that Kyle was not on the bus and the parents didn't have him.
Both may have called. IIRC, LE arrived at school and Horman's at approximately the same time.
GrainneDhu
06-16-2010, 12:50 PM
How in the world are they ever going to know who all was really there when they didn't even have a visitors list? How could they have allowed just anyone and everyone inside that school? I just don't understand it.
IMO
On normal days, they had a badge system for visitors. There are about 275 students in that school and if each one brought one family member, that would make a badge system too unwieldy. If it took 30 seconds to issue each badge, that would mean it would take over two hours to get the last badge issued (and I think 30 seconds would be a wildly optimistic estimate).
It may not have occurred to them to implement a faster tracking system for that event, such as a simple sign-in list. It's a small rural school and it has been clear that the prevailing thought was that something wouldn't happen there, in their little school where everyone thinks they know everyone.
At this point, it's not even clear that an ID check would have prevented Kyron's disappearance. I think it's possible that the perpetrator was someone who would have very good reason to be in the school.
Kimster
06-16-2010, 12:50 PM
Knock off the rumors please. Our mods in this thread need more cooperation. It would be a huge help to them if the posts about rumors were self-edited or removed. Thanks!
nomoresorrow
06-16-2010, 12:54 PM
This case is eerily similar to the Etan Patz case. The length of time that it took Etan's mom to know that he never made it to school b/c she was not notified was crucial.
O/T - one of our managers at the law firm were I work was just let go b/c it turns out he was a sex offender. He worked there for two years and the firm supposedly does background checks on all employees. The reason why it was found out was because another employee did a simple google of his name and there it was for all too see: rape in the first degree and a sodomy charge. Although he is 49 now and this crime was committed when he was 18 he was let go. The crime was in Florida and our firm is in NYC. Sometimes employees do not do thorough background checks even though they say they do. I know that most board of eds fingerprint their employees but I would double check every single employee at the school including contractors and vendors.
I hate to say this but there are alot of companies and/or institutions that, in order to save costs neglect to actually do backgrounds, believing that if somebody is willing to give their consent than they must be "clean." Unfortunately many (SO's, ect.) know this and are willing to roll the dice... it's equal to playing russian roulette IMO.
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 12:54 PM
All joking aside, that project was just a trifold poster board that folds up flat to transport, plus a shoe box size diorama. I know for a fact that the back compartment of a Mustang could hold that with no problem without even folding down either side of the back seat of her car, which probably had a baby seat and booster seat in it. Really not even a slight difficulty at all to transport.
I'm just thinking she had trouble somehow fitting his project in the car.I'm just thinking out loud LOL.
MD MOMMY
06-16-2010, 12:55 PM
I coach soccer, I couldn't be a coach until I was background checked.
No More
06-16-2010, 12:56 PM
Is there a dam below Sauvie Island?
Calliope
06-16-2010, 12:57 PM
I don't know if this thought had been brought up yet. I had a fleeting thought. What if the POI is a LEO or in security? I mean that would change my dynamic of how I looked at the way it is being investigated.
JMO stabbing in the dark here.
Or dressed like LE or security?
seeking truth
06-16-2010, 12:58 PM
Several things Id like to clear up in my mind.
The white truck...
Is there a written transcript somewhere about the white truck sightings? Maybe a call to LE saying a smaller truck, larger truck, loud diesel truck, etc?
Theres quite a difference in say a small ford Ranger and a large dually or something.
How many vehicles do the Horman's own? *Is this one of their primary vehicles?
The second sighting was at 2am Saturday morning. Can we rule out the SM driving it at that time? It was dark, how was the caller sure it was a female driver?BBM
Here is what Kelley said about the two truck sightings:
"We had two odd sightings of a vehicle on our road Friday," Kelley said. Around 3 p.m., he and a neighbor reported seeing a white pick-up truck with a female driver pull to the end of the long road, idle and then turn around. Then again at 2 a.m. Saturday morning, a similar white pickup truck appeared, idled and when a neighbor loosed her dogs, eased away."
Around three in the afternoon of the day Kyle disappeared, a female was seen driving the truck. At 2:00 am, though, Kelley does not mention being able to identify a driver:
"...a similar white pickup truck appeared, idled and when a neighbor loosed her dogs, eased away.
LINK: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 12:59 PM
I truly feel LE has a really good idea by now of what happened to Kyron. I am going to bet an arrest won't be made until sometime in late August or early September. For some reason, it just seems to take about three months to process evidence and make sure all questions have been answered so that the outcome of the trial is solid. I remember how LE was acting during the Devon Epps investigation back in 2007. The entire world knew the biological mother, Amanda Reagan Smith had murdered him. LE stood by her, calmy insisted they were investigating all possible tips, and that they had no reason to not believe her story. She also did strange stuff with her MySpace account and if I recall, she didn't go to the first vigil - and then she got in an argument at one of the others.. I was proud to see that Websleuth members doubted the story in the VERY first posting. Englishleigh was the first to comment after the story was posted, and her comment was "Ummm....yeah, right....this doesn't pass the smell test. Sounds like another Susan Smith to me, for now.". It is sort of interesting to go back and read a case like that one when analyzing a case like this one. Here is a link to the Devon Epps thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52327&highlight=devon+epps
That wasn't an Oregon case though was it?
I don't have anything that shows the Oregon police would do the same as another state.
On their site they do say the offer the families of victims assistance and I believe that is exactly what they are doing because they do see all of them as victims who had their child ripped away from them.
IMO
Is there a dam below Sauvie Island?
No, no dam.
JBean
06-16-2010, 01:00 PM
Hello:
Rumor posts will earn you 2 days off. Let others know so they have the immediate opportunity to edit theri own post before a moderator does.
Moderation and censorship whining is over now as well.
I have put a lot of personal attention into this thread which included literally sitting on it all weekend and for 2 days after to catch problems, explain rules, talk to you, open up the discussion A LOT and not give TO's.
95% of you get it. the other 5% will get TO's if they don't get on board pretty quick here.
We love that you are here and most of the work here is beyond awesome.
But if you want to post carelessly, then please do it somewhere else. there are plenty of discussion boards that anything goes.
Some people stay for the moderation here and some people leave because of the moderation here.
Read the OP if you don't know the rules. read the Rules and etiquette section of the forum, read the threadiquette entries all over the forums.
Hate to be so harsh, but moderating this thread is becoming a big problem.
Where this post lands is random and on another note those of you that are on board THANK YOU!
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 01:03 PM
I hate to say this but there are alot of companies and/or institutions that, in order to save costs neglect to actually do backgrounds, believing that if somebody is willing to give their consent than they must be "clean." Unfortunately many (SO's, ect.) know this and are willing to roll the dice... it's equal to playing russian roulette IMO.
Right, especially if someone recommends them or knows someone in their family or group of friends.
IMO
JustToSeeYouSmile
06-16-2010, 01:03 PM
Funny you should say this. Well guess what? Our local LL tells every single person that signs up to volunteer manage, coach, work in the stand, do grounds keeping, or be on the board that they are doing a background check. Everyone has to sign their consent on a form. They are then supposed to send it away for a thorough background check. Yeah, right... Get this: There's a guy that lives down the street from me, he coaches 2 of his sons' in LL. He's not a manager, but he's a coach. He's been helping for 2 years now. Well my boys stopped playing LL when they started to get more competetive so I had no need to go to the LL fields over the past couple of years, except to stop every once in awhile. I went to see a game last month & noticed this guy was coaching & I threw a fit...discreetly. I called the pres & told him I couldn't believe he allowed this guy to coach with his background & he said what are you talking about he passed a background check! I said LIE, he served 10 years in jail for starting fires in the town next to where we live...I know this for a fact bc my ex fiancee was the arresting lead detective in his case! Come to find out, they said they never got the reports back for any of the background checks! In my eyes, they probably never sent them off to begin with! And to make matters even worse, I recently found out that this guy happened to be on the LL Board in the same stinking town that he started those fires in! OMG! I mean...seriously now?
Maybe background checks are done but take longer to receive? You'd think major companies, especially school districts, would subscribe to some sort of online background check something or other! You know, the ones where they can see the info right off the bat! I'm so sick over this little boy...over all these little innocent kids going missing & violated! Grown ups need to be more responsible. Period.
Additional info: I'm stating this bc it's been said that a teacher or volunteer in Oregon had a past & was still holding their position yet they violated more children... I'm hoping beyond hope that thorough background checks were performed on all employees, including volunteers, of the Skyline School. That in itself could alleveiate some suspicion of a school employee.
Unbelievable and ITA. I was totally fascinated and ALARMED by this prospect, and even more so by the surprised answer I got from the head of one organization (when I asked why we had not been background checked for the past 10 years) which was essentially...."But... but... but we KNOW you! Everyone knows you! We would never worry about you guys!"
My god....all I can think is thank god we are, in fact, squeaky clean...but when tax dollars and donations are taken by organizations or governments (like schools) in which it is law or bylaw to background check everyone involved- and that doesn't happen but is purported or made to appear to happen....just- oh my god.
We train working dogs for LE and the military, and we background check LE that is going to receive them because it is in our contract and it ensures the safety of our dogs and our reputation!!
And these are 'just' dogs, not children!
Wise Old Owl
06-16-2010, 01:04 PM
ITA about the cost of background checks. Here - for the school system YOU HAVE TO PAY $75. for the background/fingerprint check. It is run through FBI. But little leagues and such might not because "good" ones are cost prohibitive and they just don't have the money.
Jules71
06-16-2010, 01:04 PM
I thought I read this morning that the family watched the vigil from a private room. Where did that come from? I just watched this video and it shows them and says "Kyron's family did attend praying along with the crowd".
http://www.kptv.com/video/23918603/index.html
MimiWhatserface
06-16-2010, 01:04 PM
Hi, all. Just getting back online so I have missed someone already saying this I'm sorry. Just had a thought. I wonder if the house that was searched across the street was the person who was watching the 18 month old. I don't want to go into it more but if a person was to do something illegal, I would imagine that the next place they were at would be searched in case they left evidence.
I also want to add that I think in there investigation they do say they are looking at all angles. To me this may mean the are still trying to prove or disprove people as POI.
I have not made my mind up either way but It does seem they do have someone in mind by the way they speak. I hope it is the right person and that this is resolved quickly.
Thinking of Kyron.
joshiesmom
06-16-2010, 01:05 PM
Doesn't matter if it was "seen", she had every right to be there. Point is/was getting there early would insure a good parking spot.
Not necessarily. We have no idea how many other parents were there at the same time, nor how many staff members.
I think it's an opinion that she would have been guaranteed to get a good parking spot by arriving at the school when she did, not a fact.
MOO.
Wise Old Owl
06-16-2010, 01:07 PM
Any news on the searches today? Any locals hearing the black hawk?
JustToSeeYouSmile
06-16-2010, 01:07 PM
Is there a dam below Sauvie Island?
I'm looking at the topo and don't see one. But there appears to be a drainage system of sorts.
raeann
06-16-2010, 01:08 PM
Don't want to quote JG's long post and take up space, but just last night on the news website where the video of the Kruger farm interview was posted, there were TWO stories of teachers in Oregon who had been arrested or who were on trial for sexual abuse cases with students. TWO in just that day's news, so the background checking must not be too thorough. Yes, I am on my way to find the link right now!
Here it is, one story is a coach out of Beaverton, another a teacher from Salem:
http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/local/default.aspx
No More
06-16-2010, 01:10 PM
Another question for locals and TIA. Is Sauvie Island and the area below it popular for fishing? I think fishing season starts tomorrow so lots of people should be out and this weekend when it warms up. TIA
manybooks
06-16-2010, 01:10 PM
It's irresponsible and the school will be held accountable. I hope they changed their policy.
This may be too far off-topic (Kyron), so if so, please delete (or is there a place to move this to?)
How does your school handle crowded events, and do you feel it is safe?
I'm curious - what do people think should be the policy for schools to admit people on special event days (field day, choir program, etc. etc)?
Sign in?
Sign in and put on a name tag?
Sign in and provide proof of ID and wear a name tag? I ask this one specifically, because I would guess that this would be the answer many people would come up with, but there are (at least) two problems with this. 1-Logistics. Depending on the size of the school, this could take an hour or more before an event, and 2- Some parents would not attend the event due to this (parents without legal immigrant status). Also, you might be surprised how many parents complain about comlliance with even the simplest security procedures.
Would it be any different if there were security cameras on site?
Maybe schools could issue "Parent Passes" at the first event of the year, and for easy admittance you bring this to all future evnets? Without this everyone shows ID?
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 01:10 PM
Maybe someone said something about his project that hurt his feelings ?
Maybe he went off into a wooded area to cry and pout , got lost or fell and was hurt. No jacket . Cool weather. That could quickly take its toll on a small child.
I do hope they are still searching the wooded areas near the school.
I did not watch the pressor or the vigil.
If that were my child or grandchild , I would want privacy during the vigil. I'm sure the family was shedding tears. These people are not out selling photos or making book deals. They are genuinely worried and sad.
Maybe. I think LE is keeping open all possibilities.
But I cant shake that Kyron's picture is going up on 30 billboards across two states. It makes me think they think he has been abducted but may still be alive.
IMO
Recovering-Lurker
06-16-2010, 01:12 PM
Hello:
Rumor posts will earn you 2 days off. Let others know so they have the immediate opportunity to edit theri own post before a moderator does.
Moderation and censorship whining is over now as well.
I have put a lot of personal attention into this thread which included literally sitting on it all weekend and for 2 days after to catch problems, explain rules, talk to you, open up the discussion A LOT and not give TO's.
95% of you get it. the other 5% will get TO's if they don't get on board pretty quick here.
We love that you are here and most of the work here is beyond awesome.
But if you want to post carelessly, then please do it somewhere else. there are plenty of discussion boards that anything goes.
Some people stay for the moderation here and some people leave because of the moderation here.
Read the OP if you don't know the rules. read the Rules and etiquette section of the forum, read the threadiquette entries all over the forums.
Hate to be so harsh, but moderating this thread is becoming a big problem.
Where this post lands is random and on another note those of you that are on board THANK YOU!
O.k., I'm a bit confused. Does this not apply to this thread:
NEW RULES ABOUT POSTING OUT AND OUT RUMORS.
Many posters have been requesting Rumor Threads on several cases. We do have a Rumor Thread in the members only part of WS about Haleigh Cummings. The reason we did this was because an overwhelming amount of locals who knew both families wanted to post. The best way to handle that situation was to have a rumor thread in the private area. However, I don't want rumor threads on all the cases. Too much time is needed to moderate a rumor thread and it can get very weary.
It would be naive of me not to recognize the aspect of rumors in cases like Elizabeth Olten and Somer. Therefore we are going to try something different.
If you are a local and you have heard a rumor that is not ridiculous post it clearly as a rumor.
I won't check if you say you are a local. This is different than saying you know the family.
If this doesn't work out because people start relying on rumors or repeating rumors as fact we will change it back.
If anyone has any questions go ahead and ask me, PM me or email me at tgrif@xmission.com
New Rules on Sex Offenders and Rumors. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
I admit I haven't been able to read every post on these threads, so I just want to clarify. I promise I'm not trying to be difficult. I just don't want the thread shut down. Thanks! :)
Skully
06-16-2010, 01:14 PM
Maybe. I think LE is keeping open all possibilities.
But I cant shake that Kyron's picture is going up on 30 billboards across two states. It makes me think they think he has been abducted but may still be alive.
IMO
It still appears that they are running parallel investigations to me. Searching the island and water ways and then putting up posters with no eye glasses so you can see more of his face, so I think, they don't know. JMO
Amster
06-16-2010, 01:14 PM
Are there armed guards around the Hormon house? If they are being threatened, I sure hope so! It looks pretty isolated with woods all around....scary thought.
Wise Old Owl
06-16-2010, 01:14 PM
I noticed that too Raeann yesterday when I was going over the local news sites. One was a middle school teacher.
We have so many teachers here that do horrible, awful things. Its everywhere. If its their first time getting caught - background check doesn't matter.
seeking truth
06-16-2010, 01:14 PM
Both may have called. IIRC, LE arrived at school and Horman's at approximately the same time.I read (scanner transcripts) that officer(s) en route to the school told someone at school to tell the parents that one of them needed to be at the house. This assumes one or both of the Hormans were there at the school.
Since this was relayed by radio or phone I seems that no LE had yet arrived at the school when one or both of the parents were there.
I'm not sure how soon after this conversation between the school and LE that an officer arrived at the school, nor at what times an officer and a parent arrived at the Horman home.
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 01:15 PM
This may be too far off-topic (Kyron), so if so, please delete (or is there a place to move this to?)
How does your school handle crowded events, and do you feel it is safe?
I'm curious - what do people think should be the policy for schools to admit people on special event days (field day, choir program, etc. etc)?
Sign in?
Sign in and put on a name tag?
Sign in and provide proof of ID and wear a name tag? I ask this one specifically, because I would guess that this would be the answer many people would come up with, but there are (at least) two problems with this. 1-Logistics. Depending on the size of the school, this could take an hour or more before an event, and 2- Some parents would not attend the event due to this (parents without legal immigrant status). Also, you might be surprised how many parents complain about comlliance with even the simplest security procedures.
Would it be any different if there were security cameras on site?
Maybe schools could issue "Parent Passes" at the first event of the year, and for easy admittance you bring this to all future evnets? Without this everyone shows ID?
BBM
The thing about security cameras though is they often don't stop a crime. They are useful to have once a crime has already happened but by then it is too late for the victim.
I think anyone really concerned with the safety of children would do whatever it took to keep all of the children safe even if they knew they had to arrive early to get clearance.
IMO
BeanE
06-16-2010, 01:15 PM
At the link below, it is stated:
Kyron showed off his project on the red-eyed tree frog and by 8:45 a.m. Kyron waved goodbye to Horman outside of his classroom. At some point after that, the boy's teacher, Kristina Porter, marked Kyron absent. It was not until 3:30 p.m., when she realized her stepson was not on the school bus, that Horman discovered he had been absent all day. She then called 9-1-1.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
Well, the reporters could have gotten this wrong OR they confirmed that she (Terri Horman) called 9-1-1. It was said in another article that a secretary called 9-1-1; I believe this was when the bus driver radioed in that Kyle was not on the bus and the parents didn't have him.
I'm trying to sleuth this out too, seeking. Unfortunately I'm getting distracted in real life.
The secretary calling 911 is direct from a LE document that was released to the press. I'll pull it and post it in a few. The press is taking it from there most likely.
It's Kaine's email on that Acker law blog where he says that the bus driver called the school. I'll hunt down that link too.
I don't think TH called LE or the school. I don't think Kaine called LE or the school. I think the bus driver called the school, and then the school called LE (911).
BeanE
06-16-2010, 01:17 PM
Hey BeanE I'm still confused about who was at the bus stop. In your other post further up you mention Terri Horman was at the bus stop but in this post you mention the Hormans. Can someone please tell me who was at the bus stop? I went and searched for it and there's a bunch of conflicting posts about it and I didn't see anything that was confimation they were both there but I could of missed it.
At this point, I'm taking it direct from Kaine that he and TH were at the bus stop. It's in that Acker law email. I'll pull the link and post it in a few.
Katarina
06-16-2010, 01:17 PM
Is there a dam below Sauvie Island?
No
Big ocean cargo ships pass by the island to reach Port of Portland
Jules71
06-16-2010, 01:17 PM
This may be too far off-topic (Kyron), so if so, please delete (or is there a place to move this to?)
How does your school handle crowded events, and do you feel it is safe?
I'm curious - what do people think should be the policy for schools to admit people on special event days (field day, choir program, etc. etc)?
Sign in?
Sign in and put on a name tag?
Sign in and provide proof of ID and wear a name tag? I ask this one specifically, because I would guess that this would be the answer many people would come up with, but there are (at least) two problems with this. 1-Logistics. Depending on the size of the school, this could take an hour or more before an event, and 2- Some parents would not attend the event due to this (parents without legal immigrant status). Also, you might be surprised how many parents complain about comlliance with even the simplest security procedures.
Would it be any different if there were security cameras on site?
Maybe schools could issue "Parent Passes" at the first event of the year, and for easy admittance you bring this to all future evnets? Without this everyone shows ID?
I think this is a great question and I would love to participate in discussions about this - not sure this is or is not the right place to do so. The problem I see with issuing a pass at the beginning of the school year (and I thought of that too) is that the parent could misplace it, lend it to another family member attending in their absence, etc.
I would like to see a system in our school (like someone mentioned before) - where you present your id and they scan it and print out a sticker with your picture, name, date/time, and purpose of visit. The system would also keep a log of dates/times of those visitors in/out. They would also need to teach staff and parents to question anyone on school property to immediately question/report anyone not wearing a visitor sticker. School staff should always wear a photo id badge where it is completely visible. JMO.
ETA: I would also like to see something (don't know what) in place for parents picking up students in their car.
Boo Scout
06-16-2010, 01:17 PM
BBM - Exactly!
I tell my kids all the time to fight, kick, scream, spit, bite, run, grab something big like a trash can and don't let go.
Someone asks for directions? The response is, Sorry I don't know where that is, you keep your distance and you keep walking.
Did you ever see on one of those 20/20 type shows a segment about the girl who was abducted for some time and then set free? The man simply pulled into a driveway in front of her while she was walking on the sidewalk, rolled down his passenger window and quietly pretended to ask for directions. When she peeked her head into the car to hear him better he grabbed her and pulled her whole body into the car. Think about how easy that was for him!
That one had me shuddering for weeks.
I, like many others here, am going all over the spectrum on Kyron's disappearance. But this post reminded me of something and it ties into how scary it is to me that I don't think it's difficult for a child to disappear in many, many scenarios, be that playing outside in their own yard, being in school, a mall, a store, riding a bike, etc.
Makes me very scared as a parent, b/c reality is, no matter how much you protect your children, there is alway some vulnerability, and they cannot be 100% protected 100% of the time (that said, I shudder to think of schools as not safe havens).
I haven't thought of this in years, but this post made me think of it, and also makes me think about how the type of child you are really does contribute to your vulnerability. When I was young, maybe 8-10??, I could ride my bike around the blocks of our neighborhood. Only one of these blocks was a busier street, with a sidewalk. I was riding alone one day on this sidewalk, and a car stopped...a guy, maybe in his 20s, yelled asking me for directions to a street I knew. I stopped...the guy had nothing on from the waist down and was touching himself. I stammered, scared and completely uncomfortable, but I didn't take off! I tried to give him the stupid directions! Then finally, I managed "I don't know" and I took off on my bike.
My house was only around the corner so I was scared he was going to follow me, but he didn't. He did drive away.
I never told anyone about this then! But being the type of kid I was, I actually tried to help this guy before my fear got the better of me (I was a fearful kid, and I had older sisters who were very protective, and interestingly enough, John Walsh is originally from my hometown, so there was a fresh awareness of abduction).
So I really do feel like Kyron, with what we've been told about his personality, would help an adult, possibly even if he wasn't entirely comfortable with it.
Amster
06-16-2010, 01:17 PM
Did LE put out the pic of Kyron without the glasses? If so, maybe they found his glasses....:(
JustToSeeYouSmile
06-16-2010, 01:18 PM
Maybe someone said something about his project that hurt his feelings ?
Maybe he went off into a wooded area to cry and pout , got lost or fell and was hurt. No jacket . Cool weather. That could quickly take its toll on a small child.I do hope they are still searching the wooded areas near the school.
I did not watch the pressor or the vigil.
If that were my child or grandchild , I would want privacy during the vigil. I'm sure the family was shedding tears. These people are not out selling photos or making book deals. They are genuinely worried and sad.
BBM: I really wonder about this also. My significant other, at age 7, was told by classmates at school one day that a project she was working on was all wrong. She was a sensitive kid, and got very upset inside. So she asked for a hall pass to go to the bathroom, but instead walked out of school completely unseen, and walked home. Home was right down the road, fortunately. But it took the school 2 hours to figure out where she was and what had happened.
2 hours later, the school called her home to say she had gone to the bathroom and was now missing. She was safely sitting in her kitchen, crying to her mom about the kids who had said her project was wrong. The school was relieved and panic stricken at the same time, but nothing more was made of it because she was safe.
This was suburbia. But if she was somewhere where the terrain were more dangerous, she could very easily have vanished as quickly as Kyron- without a trace.
JBean
06-16-2010, 01:20 PM
O.k., I'm a bit confused. Does this not apply to this thread:
New Rules on Sex Offenders and Rumors. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91068)
I admit I haven't been able to read every post on these threads, so I just want to clarify. I promise I'm not trying to be difficult. I just don't want the thread shut down. Thanks! :)
Here is the rumor rule in this thread:
1. No rumors allowed
we tried it, it didn't work.
Chili Fries
06-16-2010, 01:20 PM
I am very curious why the neighbor's house was searched!
I am too. I'm trying to figure out who the neighbor is but the Multnomah County property records site is tough to deal with here is the link:
http://multcoproptax.com/search.asp
This map provides the address for Kyron's dad and stepmom:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=113741092510424599794.0004885502c0e5890795a&t=h&z=10
Makes me wonder if they think the neighbor could have been at the school that morning, maybe he or she has a kid at Skyline.
wvjules
06-16-2010, 01:20 PM
The white truck... Even though I'm leaning toward family or maybe school staff (even if peripheral), I'm beginning to have my doubts that the white truck was being driven by the stepmom. She has long vibrant red hair and would be easily identifiable... :twocents:
Not to mention how stupid would she have to be to go back to the "scene" at 2AM while probably being watched by LE, her husband, Kyron's mom, SD, reporters, etc....
Skully
06-16-2010, 01:21 PM
Did LE put out the pic of Kyron without the glasses? If so, maybe they found his glasses....:(
It was on the alert thread they have, so I don't know if it is on a bill board, can't say. It is the picture of him in front of his project that day.
JBean
06-16-2010, 01:23 PM
Please continue here.
#1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106082) #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106157)
#3 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106178) #4 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106209)
#5 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106279) #6 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106330&highlight=kyron)
#7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106379&page=28) #8 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106439)
#9 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106463) #10 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106506)
#11 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106533) #12 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106601)
#13 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106646) #14 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106683)
#15 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5292051#post5292051) #16 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106757)
Kyron Horman - MEDIA AND IMAGES LINKS (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106375)
Forensic Astrology - Kyron Horman disappears 6/4/10 Portland OR - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106417)
Originally Posted by JBean
Reminder we are a victim friendly forum. At this point the entire family would be considered victims. Please don't play word games with me.
When we say victim friendly we mean all those that are immediately victimized by what appears to be a terrible crime. This includes the family that is missing a 7 year old child for the love of God.
You are free to discuss your opinions on statements made, possible doubts you may have or questions raised by the information or lack thereof.
But if you start throwing around careless accusations against the family or sleuthing out their personal information or discussing the color of lipstick someone was wearing, you will be given a no expense paid vacation.
If the situation changes and if the investigation by LE points back to the family then these rules will change. We roll with the news and as more information is revealed and as LE gives us information, we adjust.
As I have said, imagine this is your child and people are looking at YOU.
Moreover, stereotyping some of these players is positively embarrassing to the forum. KNOCK IT OFF
The Rules (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159)
Threadiquette - Questions about rules welcome here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97021)
No more Facebook or rumors!
Reminder: if you have a tip, not matter how small you think it is, please call the tip line at 503-261-2847. If the tip line is answered by automated response, your tip will be heard!!! 503-261-2847
from the OP of this very thread
Calliope
06-16-2010, 01:25 PM
I read (scanner transcripts) that officer(s) en route to the school told someone at school to tell the parents that one of them needed to be at the house. This assumes one or both of the Hormans were there at the school.
Since this was relayed by radio or phone I seems that no LE had yet arrived at the school when one or both of the parents were there.
I'm not sure how soon after this conversation between the school and LE that an officer arrived at the school, nor at what times an officer and a parent arrived at the Horman home.
Maybe, but he was en route, so he may not have known where the parents were at the time, or if they were possibly on their way to the school. Perhaps TH and KH told school they were on their way, and this officer wanted school to call them back and tell one of them to remain at the home.
Recovering-Lurker
06-16-2010, 01:25 PM
Here is the rumor rule in this thread:
1. No rumors allowed
we tried it, it didn't work.
Duh, it was in the first post. I'll admit I don't always read those. Looks like I should. Thanks for clarifying... again. :)
Jules71
06-16-2010, 01:25 PM
I, like many others here, am going all over the spectrum on Kyron's disappearance. But this post reminded me of something and it ties into how scary it is to me that I don't think it's difficult for a child to disappear in many, many scenarios, be that playing outside in their own yard, being in school, a mall, a store, riding a bike, etc.
Makes me very scared as a parent, b/c reality is, no matter how much you protect your children, there is alway some vulnerability, and they cannot be 100% protected 100% of the time (that said, I shudder to think of schools as not safe havens).
I haven't thought of this in years, but this post made me think of it, and also makes me think about how the type of child you are really does contribute to your vulnerability. When I was young, maybe 8-10??, I could ride my bike around the blocks of our neighborhood. Only one of these blocks was a busier street, with a sidewalk. I was riding alone one day on this sidewalk, and a car stopped...a guy, maybe in his 20s, yelled asking me for directions to a street I knew. I stopped...the guy had nothing on from the waist down and was touching himself. I stammered, scared and completely uncomfortable, but I didn't take off! I tried to give him the stupid directions! Then finally, I managed "I don't know" and I took off on my bike.
My house was only around the corner so I was scared he was going to follow me, but he didn't. He did drive away.
I never told anyone about this then! But being the type of kid I was, I actually tried to help this guy before my fear got the better of me (I was a fearful kid, and I had older sisters who were very protective, and interestingly enough, John Walsh is originally from my hometown, so there was a fresh awareness of abduction).
So I really do feel like Kyron, with what we've been told about his personality, would help an adult, possibly even if he wasn't entirely comfortable with it.
Scary scary. When I was about 20 years old, I was waiting for the public bus to go to work, and 2 men in a car drove up and rolled down the window to ask me for directions. I was trying to give them direction (from a distance) and then the guy said - hey you have something in your hair and was reaching out to me like to come closer so he could get it out of my hair. I backed off and said NO THANKS - and when he left I asked another person at the bus stop if I had something in my hair and I did NOT. Who knows what could have happened if I walked closer to the car.
I have seen on tv programs where they teach children to if someone is trying to grab them to drop to the ground and kick and yell stranger stranger 911 over and over. They say it is more difficult for someone to grab someone and carry them off when they are on the ground and a legs distance away kicking. I don't know which is better though - to do that or to run. But I guess if they have a hold of you, to drop would be better than to stand and kick and scream. I don't know. Scary.
scandi
06-16-2010, 01:26 PM
Are there armed guards around the Hormon house? If they are being threatened, I sure hope so! It looks pretty isolated with woods all around....scary thought.
Hi Amster, Right before 9am there was an UPDATE on KOIN TV. The only thing really mentioned was that either the Prosecutor's or DA's office were spending quite a bit of time at the Horman home at this point. They also said the reason was to see if they could learn more about Kyron and what people he might know.
I haven't checked for a link yet. There might not be one until 11am which is when their next broadcast is. xox
seeking truth
06-16-2010, 01:26 PM
I'm trying to sleuth this out too, seeking. Unfortunately I'm getting distracted in real life.
The secretary calling 911 is direct from a LE document that was released to the press. I'll pull it and post it in a few. The press is taking it from there most likely.
It's Kaine's email on that Acker law blog where he says that the bus driver called the school. I'll hunt down that link too.
I don't think TH called LE or the school. I don't think Kaine called LE or the school. I think the bus driver called the school, and then the school called LE (911).Thanks so much, BeanE.
:Banane21:
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 01:26 PM
Well,there is just not much known now for me to figure out what happened to little Kyron.So I will just checking the sheriffs website and here to see if there is any news reports and any updates and pray they find him.I am very interested in the searches they are doing.I do think they have a suspect or suspects they are looking at.
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 01:26 PM
It was on the alert thread they have, so I don't know if it is on a bill board, can't say. It is the picture of him in front of his project that day.
Have they released which picture of Kyron will be going up on the billboards?
TIA
imo
Katarina
06-16-2010, 01:27 PM
Another question for locals and TIA. Is Sauvie Island and the area below it popular for fishing? I think fishing season starts tomorrow so lots of people should be out and this weekend when it warms up. TIA
In general lot of people go to Savuvie Island on the weekends, including our family. We go there to enjoy the beach & stop at local farms strawberry picking
I see lot of cyclist there
Not sure if they fish there, the river is kinda noisy with all the cargo ships & recreational boats
Lately I don't feel that safe at the beach. Too many drunk people on the boats and beaches & barely any security
BeanE
06-16-2010, 01:27 PM
Did LE put out the pic of Kyron without the glasses? If so, maybe they found his glasses....:(
Yes
http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1276
BeanE
06-16-2010, 01:29 PM
What happened at bus stop through calling LE mini timeline and related links
for those of us sleuthing this. This should be everything *except* a map/drive time from near JK's home where the white truck was seen <> Kyron's bus stop. (Sorry it's messy. I'm trying to take care of something in real life at the same time I'm doing this lol.)
3pm white truck driven by a lady seen by Jim K and his neighbor near Jim's home off Cornelius Pass. Truck pulled to the end of a long road, idled, then turned around. At 2am Saturday morning, a similar truck appeared and idled, and when a neighbor turned her dogs loose, the truck eased away.
3:30pm The Hormans go to the school bus stop and discover that Kyron is not on the bus.
3:46pm School secretary calls 911.
This should be all the links:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
We did not know he was not at school until we went to get him off of the bus at 3:30 and he was nowhere to be found. The bus driver immediately called the school which responded that his teacher had not seen him all day in class, at which point we notified police in partnership with the school.
http://ackerlaw.com/posts/2010/06/07/missing_child__kyron_horman_7
REWIND OF THE INITIAL TRANSMISSION OF KYRON REPORTED MISSING.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
1) What time was 9-1-1 called?
Answer: BOEC received call at 1556 (3:56 p.m.). Dispatched to police units at 1559 (3:59 p.m.).
2) When did the first officers arrive on scene?
Answer: Portland Police Bureau and Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office units arrived at 1633 (4:33 p.m.) simultaneously at Skyline school and Kyron’s home.
3) Who made the call?
Answer: Skyline School secretary Susan Hall.
Kyron Horman PIO Timline 06-11-10
http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm
http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom/Kyron_PIO_timeline.pdf
Map w/truck sighting and Kyron's home to figure out drive time:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=113741092510424599794.0004885502c0e5890795a&t=h&z=10
Driving directions to Suspicious White Truck Sighting
0.9 mi – about 2 mins
tk71texas
06-16-2010, 01:29 PM
I would like to see a system in our school (like someone mentioned before) - where you present your id and they scan it and print out a sticker with your picture, name, date/time, and purpose of visit. The system would also keep a log of dates/times of those visitors in/out. They would also need to teach staff and parents to question anyone on school property to immediately question/report anyone not wearing a visitor sticker. School staff should always wear a photo id badge where it is completely visible. JMO.
ETA: I would also like to see something (don't know what) in place for parents picking up students in their car.
my school district does the id/sticker thing. My son's middle school doesn't check my id everytime because they know me and my picture is in the computer and prints on the sticker. However, my daughter's highschool checks my ID everytime cuz for some reason my pic is not on the sticker they print out. Sometimes this has made me irritable because they should know me by now....as far as picking up car riders i know that when my son was in elementary, the car riders had "tags" with numbers that matched tags in the windshield of the car picking them up so that the teacher could call out who was next.....anyways, ot i guess....sorry:waitasec:
Amster
06-16-2010, 01:30 PM
I was thinking his glasses may have been found on S. Island....thus the search...thus the pic of him without glasses. Just grasping at straws, I know...
tlcya
06-16-2010, 01:31 PM
It is common for LE to want us (the public) to be looking for Kyron, with or without glasses, with or without that hair color, etc. I can only assume that they are covering their bases. ie. If this wa san abduction, and if he is still a living victim, the perp would want to alter his appearance because of all the media attention on this case. The easiest way to alter appearance, remove or add glasses, change hair color or length etc.
I think LE released that photo altered to remove the glasses so that the public could see what Kyron looks like in case someone has taken his glasses, or if his glasses have become lost in a struggle, etc.
Calliope
06-16-2010, 01:31 PM
They DID attend the vigil, and (from the video link above) actually sat with the others in the church.
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 01:32 PM
Did someone say he was going somewhere after school?camping or something?I don't remember what was said.Was he going to be brought to that or something?
wvjules
06-16-2010, 01:33 PM
What happened at bus stop through calling LE mini timeline and related links
for those of us sleuthing this. This should be everything *except* a map/drive time from near JK's home where the white truck was seen <> Kyron's bus stop. (Sorry it's messy. I'm trying to take care of something in real life at the same time I'm doing this lol.)
3pm white truck driven by a lady seen by Jim K and his neighbor near Jim's home off Cornelius Pass. Truck pulled to the end of a long road, idled, then turned around. At 2am Saturday morning, a similar truck appeared and idled, and when a neighbor turned her dogs loose, the truck eased away.
3:30pm The Hormans go to the school bus stop and discover that Kyron is not on the bus.
3:46pm School secretary calls 911.
This should be all the links:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html
We did not know he was not at school until we went to get him off of the bus at 3:30 and he was nowhere to be found. The bus driver immediately called the school which responded that his teacher had not seen him all day in class, at which point we notified police in partnership with the school.
http://ackerlaw.com/posts/2010/06/07/missing_child__kyron_horman_7
REWIND OF THE INITIAL TRANSMISSION OF KYRON REPORTED MISSING.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5283551&postcount=732)
1) What time was 9-1-1 called?
Answer: BOEC received call at 1556 (3:56 p.m.). Dispatched to police units at 1559 (3:59 p.m.).
2) When did the first officers arrive on scene?
Answer: Portland Police Bureau and Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office units arrived at 1633 (4:33 p.m.) simultaneously at Skyline school and Kyron’s home.
3) Who made the call?
Answer: Skyline School secretary Susan Hall.
Kyron Horman PIO Timline 06-11-10
http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm
http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom/Kyron_PIO_timeline.pdf
Not that it probably matters in the grand scheme of things, but it took LE over 1/2 hour to arrive at the scene? Is it a large county?
Calliope
06-16-2010, 01:34 PM
ForTheKids, here's the video report of the vigil. Parents were there:
http://www.kptv.com/video/23918603/index.html
Another question for locals and TIA. Is Sauvie Island and the area below it popular for fishing? I think fishing season starts tomorrow so lots of people should be out and this weekend when it warms up. TIA
Yes, fishing and all sorts of rec, as just posted. It used to be one of my favorite fishing places (before I discovered gardening). Now it's one of my favorite nursery haunts.
However, the area of water they are searching is the Multnomah Channel, next to the highway. The channel is not prime fishing, but people poodle around in it. The channel is lined with floating homes in the area the are searching.
The entire island is between that water, and the river itself.
The Port of Portland is an 'ocean port'... ships can come all the way up the Columbia from the Pacific.
The river is also a little confusing in that the Willamette & Columbia run north (so up is out).
I am too. I'm trying to figure out who the neighbor is but the Multnomah County property records site is tough to deal with here is the link:
http://multcoproptax.com/search.asp
This map provides the address for Kyron's dad and stepmom:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=113741092510424599794.0004885502c0e5890795a&t=h&z=10
Makes me wonder if they think the neighbor could have been at the school that morning, maybe he or she has a kid at Skyline.
Try using www.portlandmaps.com (gov't site). You'll find the assessors infor you want, and much easier to navigate to neighbor properties w/out knowing their names.
Can you say which neighbor was searched? Jim Kelley is close enough to be called a neighbor (across CP Road).
seeking truth
06-16-2010, 01:36 PM
I am too. I'm trying to figure out who the neighbor is but the Multnomah County property records site is tough to deal with here is the link:
http://multcoproptax.com/search.asp
This map provides the address for Kyron's dad and stepmom:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=113741092510424599794.0004885502c0e5890795a&t=h&z=10
Makes me wonder if they think the neighbor could have been at the school that morning, maybe he or she has a kid at Skyline.
I agree with another poster, upthread, that this neighbor could have been watching the Horman baby that morning or anytime during the day Kyron disappeared. Why they would search? Maybe it was more of an interview, but that's a guess on my part.
Could someone direct me to the Kyron media/document thread? Would I find this information there?
1. Article(s) referring to the neighbor's house being searched.
2. The Hormans truck being towed.
I'm not trying to be lazy, I'm having a little trouble finding Kyron info. here, though I am probably just missing what is in plain sight.
Thanks in advance for any help.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 01:38 PM
For those working on the white truck/bus stop/mini timeline:
The map does show the truck sighting area. I need to figure out how to get the drive time:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=113741092510424599794.0004885502c0e5890795a&t=h&z=10
ETA: Somebody please double check me, but I'm getting 0.9 miles, 2 minutes drive time:
Driving directions to Suspicious White Truck Sighting
0.9 mi – about 2 mins
For those working on the white truck/bus stop/mini timeline:
The map does show the truck sighting area. I need to figure out how to get the drive time:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=113741092510424599794.0004885502c0e5890795a&t=h&z=10
ETA: Somebody please double check me, but I'm getting 0.9 miles, 2 minutes drive time:
Driving directions to Suspicious White Truck Sighting
0.9 mi – about 2 mins
From where? The Horman house?
They are just across the big road.. so yes, a couple of minutes sounds right.
mamaeb
06-16-2010, 01:43 PM
........
This was also a weekend that Kyron was going AWAY himself, to be with his other set of parents. He was (likely - assuming again) scheduled to leave soon after he got off the bus....
I am still catching up but wanted to add... there was a link posted last night by joshiesmom that stated that bio momand step dad left their home as soon as they found out kyron was missing... so I do not think he was scheduled to leave for their house soon after he got off, because they live a couple hours away, if I recall right
GourmetSoy
06-16-2010, 01:43 PM
Regarding the white truck sighting....
I just thought of something kind of obvious to me. Wouldn't this man have recognized the truck that day if it was the Horman's. It wouldn't have struck him as odd because he would have recognized the truck, wouldn't have to recognize the driver necessarily. Also, if I was the SM I'm not sure I could make it out at 2am to do anything nefarious with LE at my house 24/7. IMO.
ETA: when I wrote this post I was under the impression that Mr. Kelley's house where the white truck was spotted was in closer proximity to the Horman's. Thanks to Puf's case map I have found that it's actually 1 1/2 miles away from the Horman's. Still possible they were familiar with one another but possible they weren't.
Any news on the searches today? Any locals hearing the black hawk?
Do you know, I was just reading this thinking.. no, as a matter of fact. Then a copter just went over.. so what is it, 10:40am (if you want to check with scanner peeps etc).
Haven't had the news on today.
pufnstuf
06-16-2010, 01:44 PM
Real photo of Kyron without glasses. This one has not been manipulated, but shows how his eyes truly look without glasses on.
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/8725/kyronwoglasses.jpg
belimom
06-16-2010, 01:44 PM
I was thinking his glasses may have been found on S. Island....thus the search...thus the pic of him without glasses. Just grasping at straws, I know...
I hope not... :cry:
Either they fell off while his body was being dumped, or they fell off while he was being mistreated... My little brother had coke-bottle glasses when he was little (still does), and I always felt so sorry for him when he couldn't find them - he couldn't see a thing. My heart goes out to Kyron the same way... If he's alive, I hope he still has his glasses.
Jules71
06-16-2010, 01:44 PM
I am too. I'm trying to figure out who the neighbor is but the Multnomah County property records site is tough to deal with here is the link:
http://multcoproptax.com/search.asp
This map provides the address for Kyron's dad and stepmom:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=113741092510424599794.0004885502c0e5890795a&t=h&z=10
Makes me wonder if they think the neighbor could have been at the school that morning, maybe he or she has a kid at Skyline.
If we are allowed to do this (I have on other cases) I can try to fiddle with it. It you go to that assessors site and put in just NW SHELTERED NOOK you will get 56 results to look thru. I am used to looking at a better map system with the assessors site so you can click on neighbors houses, etc. With this site it isn't that easy. I also looked on zillow.com to see if it shows the different plots with addresses but not much came up and I could not tell exactly where I was.
ETA: They are on lots 36 & 37.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 01:44 PM
I agree with another poster, upthread, that this neighbor could have been watching the Horman baby that morning or anytime during the day Kyron disappeared. Why they would search? Maybe it was more of an interview, but that's a guess on my part.
Could someone direct me to the Kyron media/document thread? Would I find this information there?
1. Article(s) referring to the neighbor's house being searched.
2. The Hormans truck being towed.
I'm not trying to be lazy, I'm having a little trouble finding Kyron info. here, though I am probably just missing what is in plain sight.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Kyron's media thread:
OR Kyron Horman - Portland, Oregon MEDIA AND IMAGES LINKS - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
1. and 2. are in the last thread. Go to the first post in this thread, and there will be a link to the last thread. Go to that thread. Towards the upper right corner of your screen is a link called Search This Thread. Hit that and search for keyword neighbor, then try keyword dealership to find the truck video.
Hope that helps!
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 01:45 PM
Hi Amster, Right before 9am there was an UPDATE on KOIN TV. The only thing really mentioned was that either the Prosecutor's or DA's office were spending quite a bit of time at the Horman home at this point. They also said the reason was to see if they could learn more about Kyron and what people he might know.
I haven't checked for a link yet. There might not be one until 11am which is when their next broadcast is. xox
Quote
Prosecutor's or DA's office were spending quite a bit of time at the Horman home at this point.
I find this very interesting.The DA office was involved alot in JonBenet Ramsey's case.They do look like they are building a case against someone.I don't know who.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 01:45 PM
From where? The Horman house?
They are just across the big road.. so yes, a couple of minutes sounds right.
Yes, sorry, I used the Horman house, on the assumption that it's very near the bus stop.
oceanblueeyes
06-16-2010, 01:47 PM
I was thinking his glasses may have been found on S. Island....thus the search...thus the pic of him without glasses. Just grasping at straws, I know...
I think they are maybe thinking whoever took Kyron may have taken his glasses off to change his appearance some.
It makes me think they want everyone out there looking for Kyron with or without his glasses.
IMO
tlcya
06-16-2010, 01:48 PM
Exactly Gourmet, the truck was noteworthy because it was unusual or suspicious for it to be there. Nothing suspicious about seeing your neighbor's truck on your street. erego, the suspicious white truck is not the Horman vehicle.
scandi
06-16-2010, 01:49 PM
Quote
Prosecutor's or DA's office were spending quite a bit of time at the Horman home at this point.
I find this very interesting.The DA office was involved alot in JonBenet Ramsey's case.They do look like they are building a case against someone.I don't know who.
The reporter said there would be more about Kyron at 11am. I'll watch that and make notes. ;} In about 12 min.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 01:49 PM
I am still catching up but wanted to add... there was a link posted last night by joshiesmom that stated that bio momand step dad left their home as soon as they found out kyron was missing... so I do not think he was scheduled to leave for their house soon after he got off, because they live a couple hours away, if I recall right
I believe I saw it's a 5 hour drive from bio mom house to bio dad house.
lillygator
06-16-2010, 01:50 PM
I have so many questions...
which car did Kyron and sm take to school?
did dad go to work that day and if so what car was taken?
did they perhaps ride together?
what is with the white truck sightings?
what white truck was towed?
who is the witness that LE has not named (I don't think) that has said to have seen Kyron after sm left?
who else would have known Kyron was leaving to go to his mom's for the weekend right after school?
who was at the bus stop to meet him? both sm and dad? Is dad, why was he home at that time? work early off early? planning on heading right out to Kyron's mom's as a family?
has any 911 calls been released?
any statements been released?
does Orgean operate like FL's sunshine laws?
human
06-16-2010, 01:51 PM
1. I believe that all school buses are made by the same company, Maybe not. But at any rate, here is how our school buses work.
There is a radio in it and the bus driver radios in. Now I would think that it would have 911 capabilities in it also, but I do not know that. I would like to make Google my friend, but I just have time to type my thoughts here right now.
2. The white truck-granted I live in the country where I live, so I don't have that much experience, but I have never seen a car hauled off for mechanical problems.
Even my almost 10 year old Honda has sensors that give warnings that something is going wrong with my car.
Over the 40 years of owning cars and we were poor and young, I never had a car die in the driveway. On the road, yes. Somewhere else, yes.
But it was no surprise, even before the days of sensors. I was just praying the car would keep going before it died .
Most mechanical things in a car give warning before they go. Your starter doesn't usually just quit one day. It does erratic stuff. Same with the water pump.
Struts, shocks, engine. There are signs, some louder than others.
I've never had A/C so I don't know.
With the father being an engineer, I would think that he would be more sensitive to the signs than I am and would bring a car in before it comes to the point that it needs to be flat bedded to a dealer.
But, I am no mechanic.
My son is an engineer and my hubby used to work on cars (ours and friends, out of the goodness of his heart). So, I've had a LOT of car discussions especially since we try to keep them going as long as we can.
Expert by osmosis-ha ha ha
tlcya
06-16-2010, 01:51 PM
The DA would not be building a case against a family member in that family's home.
Their presence there (if this is actually a fact and not yet another rumor) would only serve to strengthen my belief that the family deserves not my suspicion but my support.
JustToSeeYouSmile
06-16-2010, 01:52 PM
For those working on the white truck/bus stop/mini timeline:
The map does show the truck sighting area. I need to figure out how to get the drive time:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=113741092510424599794.0004885502c0e5890795a&t=h&z=10
ETA: Somebody please double check me, but I'm getting 0.9 miles, 2 minutes drive time:
Driving directions to Suspicious White Truck Sighting
0.9 mi – about 2 mins
Bean, I am getting 0.7 mi- just under 2 minutes.
Ms Suzanne
06-16-2010, 01:53 PM
The reporter said there would be more about Kyron at 11am. I'll watch that and make notes. ;} In about 12 min.
Thank you.
pufnstuf
06-16-2010, 01:53 PM
I have so many questions...
which car did Kyron and sm take to school?
did dad go to work that day and if so what car was taken?
did they perhaps ride together?
what is with the white truck sightings?
what white truck was towed?
who is the witness that LE has not named (I don't think) that has said to have seen Kyron after sm left?
who else would have known Kyron was leaving to go to his mom's for the weekend right after school?
who was at the bus stop to meet him? both sm and dad? Is dad, why was he home at that time? work early off early? planning on heading right out to Kyron's mom's as a family?
has any 911 calls been released?
any statements been released?
does Orgean operate like FL's sunshine laws?
All great questions.
The white truck that was towed was Kyron's father's truck.
About midway through the video HERE (http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/mediacenter/default.aspx?videoId=16810@koin.web.entriq.net&navCatId=156)
eyes4crime
06-16-2010, 01:57 PM
Hello:
Rumor posts will earn you 2 days off. Let others know so they have the immediate opportunity to edit theri own post before a moderator does.
Moderation and censorship whining is over now as well.
I have put a lot of personal attention into this thread which included literally sitting on it all weekend and for 2 days after to catch problems, explain rules, talk to you, open up the discussion A LOT and not give TO's.
95% of you get it. the other 5% will get TO's if they don't get on board pretty quick here.
We love that you are here and most of the work here is beyond awesome.
But if you want to post carelessly, then please do it somewhere else. there are plenty of discussion boards that anything goes.
Some people stay for the moderation here and some people leave because of the moderation here.
Read the OP if you don't know the rules. read the Rules and etiquette section of the forum, read the threadiquette entries all over the forums.
Hate to be so harsh, but moderating this thread is becoming a big problem.
Where this post lands is random and on another note those of you that are on board THANK YOU!
JBean, thank you so much for all that you do and for your patience with the Kyron thread. Under your table with the computer during the earthquake was a show of your dedication to WS and to getting this thread on track for all.
I appreciate a a thread that is not tangled with rumors that have a propensity for a life of their own. I believe we are smarter here at WS than to pursue rumors and witchhunts. Thanks to JBean and BeanE for keeping this thread ethical and civil. I appreciate it immensely :blowkiss:
ETA: Oh Kimster - sorry, I assure you it was by accident I left you out of my 'thank you' comment. :blowkiss: :hug:
Jules71
06-16-2010, 01:57 PM
The reporter said there would be more about Kyron at 11am. I'll watch that and make notes. ;} In about 12 min.
At which link? TIA!
JustToSeeYouSmile
06-16-2010, 01:58 PM
JBean, thank you so much for all that you do and for your patience with the Kyron thread. Under your table with the computer during the earthquake was a show of your dedication to WS and to getting this thread on track for all.
I appreciate a a thread that is not tangled with rumors that have a propensity for a life of their own. I believe we are smarter here at WS than to pursue rumors and witchhunts. Thanks to JBean and Bean E for keeping this thread ethical and civil. I appreciate it immensely :blowkiss:
What she said!
Kimberlyd125
06-16-2010, 02:00 PM
JBean, thank you so much for all that you do and for your patience with the Kyron thread. Under your table with the computer during the earthquake was a show of your dedication to WS and to getting this thread on track for all.
I appreciate a a thread that is not tangled with rumors that have a propensity for a life of their own. I believe we are smarter here at WS than to pursue rumors and witchhunts. Thanks to JBean and BeanE for keeping this thread ethical and civil. I appreciate it immensely :blowkiss:
Yep, I agree.
And Kimster.
Jules71
06-16-2010, 02:00 PM
The house directly across the street from the Horman's looks like it is a rental (the owner has a different address per assessors info).
Was the house that was searched directly across the street?
ETA: When I do a reverse addy search on whitepages I get the owners name.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 02:00 PM
I have so many questions...
which car did Kyron and sm take to school?
unknown
did dad go to work that day and if so what car was taken?
unknown
did they perhaps ride together?
unknown
what is with the white truck sightings?
some guy saw some truck
what white truck was towed?
the Horman's truck was towed. the news station asked the sheriff's office about it, who said the Hormans had it towed to the dealership for mechanical problems.
who is the witness that LE has not named (I don't think) that has said to have seen Kyron after sm left?
don't know because LE has not named them
who else would have known Kyron was leaving to go to his mom's for the weekend right after school?
don't know
who was at the bus stop to meet him? both sm and dad? Is dad, why was he home at that time? work early off early? planning on heading right out to Kyron's mom's as a family?
according to dad, dad and mom met the bus. don't know why he was home.
has any 911 calls been released?
no
any statements been released?
lots!
http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1276&alert=1
http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm
does Orgean operate like FL's sunshine laws?
don't know
My answers in blue.
Day Dreamer
06-16-2010, 02:01 PM
I have seen on tv programs where they teach children to if someone is trying to grab them to drop to the ground and kick and yell stranger stranger 911 over and over. They say it is more difficult for someone to grab someone and carry them off when they are on the ground and a legs distance away kicking. I don't know which is better though - to do that or to run. But I guess if they have a hold of you, to drop would be better than to stand and kick and scream. I don't know. Scary.
Respectfully snipped. BBM. This is great advice. I have a 4 year old that is autistic. He weighs around 35 pounds. He often drops like that when he doesn't want to do something and it is extremely hard on my back. It is next to impossible to pick him up when he is kicking and throwing a tantrum. I would say most abductors are not going to want to deal w/ such behavior.
txanmom
06-16-2010, 02:02 PM
sorry if this has been covered, but how large is this population and how many le are there? are there alot of crime/abductions/kidnappings that occur there or is this very rare? are the local le following the fbi's lead, or are they following their own departmental protocol/training?
tyia!
Chili Fries
06-16-2010, 02:03 PM
If we are allowed to do this (I have on other cases) I can try to fiddle with it. It you go to that assessors site and put in just NW SHELTERED NOOK you will get 56 results to look thru. I am used to looking at a better map system with the assessors site so you can click on neighbors houses, etc. With this site it isn't that easy. I also looked on zillow.com to see if it shows the different plots with addresses but not much came up and I could not tell exactly where I was.
ETA: They are on lots 36 & 37.
Thank you. I tried the street name but didn't get the list because I forgot to remove "road" at the end. It is very hard to see the relationships between the different properties. If you do find the neighbor please post initials. I'll do the same if I figure it out.
BeanE
06-16-2010, 02:04 PM
JBean, thank you so much for all that you do and for your patience with the Kyron thread. Under your table with the computer during the earthquake was a show of your dedication to WS and to getting this thread on track for all.
I appreciate a a thread that is not tangled with rumors that have a propensity for a life of their own. I believe we are smarter here at WS than to pursue rumors and witchhunts. Thanks to JBean and BeanE for keeping this thread ethical and civil. I appreciate it immensely :blowkiss:
BBM. I appreciate it, but I took a hiatus from modding for several days, and am just getting back to it this morning. I did not do any work, and certainly deserve no credit. All credit and thanks go to JBean, who has been just wonderful.
Jules71
06-16-2010, 02:05 PM
Thank you. I tried the street name but didn't get the list because I forgot to remove "road" at the end. It is very hard to see the relationships between the different properties. If you do find the neighbor please post initials. I'll do the same if I figure it out.
The other link that was posted works GREAT! Thanks to the person who posted it!!
http://www.portlandmaps.com/
vBulletin® v3.8.1, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
0