View Full Version : The Science Fair-IB Expo and the Electric Project
JBean
06-16-2010, 09:32 PM
Discuss what we know about the expo here.
snarkymalarkey
06-16-2010, 10:41 PM
Is there any information regarding the 'electricity' science fair project? Where it was located in the school (if it existed at all?)
JBean
06-16-2010, 10:55 PM
Is there any information regarding the 'electricity' science fair project? Where it was located in the school (if it existed at all?)
I think the only reference is from the classmate.
JBean
06-16-2010, 10:56 PM
Is my understanding correct that the project was already set up at the school? The reports I read said he was anxious to show it to his SM, which made it seem as though it was already set up. do we know for certain?
sofia76
06-17-2010, 01:58 AM
JBean I don't know for certain, but I don't think they brought the project in that day. I think it was already set up with the other projects.
pufnstuf
06-17-2010, 02:02 AM
Took place from 8-10.
School opened at 8:00 AM for the science fair.
At 8:45, as the bell rang, children were to report to their rooms to be divided up into groups to tour the science fair.
At 10:00, they were to return to homeroom to have class.
Then the talent show was the afternoon thing, from 1:00 - 2:45.
butterfly1978
06-17-2010, 04:01 AM
Jessigirl... If you want I will start a thread about the talent show...
LillyRush
06-17-2010, 05:17 AM
Is there any information regarding the 'electricity' science fair project? Where it was located in the school (if it existed at all?)
I would really like to know this too. So far the only mention of this exhibit has come from T. relaying a conversation he had with Kyron?
greenpalm
06-17-2010, 06:13 AM
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/search_for_missing_portland_bo.html
"It was not clear, however, whether Kyron, like every other student in the school, then participated in a classroom-to-classroom inspection of other science projects.
Parent-led groups of about four students walked among the classrooms, said Gina Zimmerman, president of the Skyline PTA.
"You were supposed to stay with your group," Zimmerman said. "I don't know what group he was in." "
greenpalm
06-17-2010, 06:19 AM
a few more quotes from media articles about the expo:
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx
“Eight-year-old T P says the first person to notice Kyron Horman missing was a substitute teacher who was taking a head count as the second and third grade class was re-assembling after visiting other classrooms for a science fair at Skyline School last Friday.
"And she was like 'oh no where's Kyron there's only five' and Mrs. Porter was like it's okay calm down, calm down he's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I'm going to leave and she left, " says T P.
But, Portland Public School spokesman Matt Shelby said the account can't be true: "There were no substitutes at the school that day (the day Kyron disappeared)," he said.”
This is the same article that includes comments from T’s grandmother admitting that T had been asked not to speak with the media, but she elected to allow him to do so anyway. I hope she hasn’t seriously compromised this investigation.
The article also discusses that Portland School District Spokesperson, Matt Shelby believes that T is confused because substitutes were called in the week following Kyron’s disappearance to act as relief to teachers who might need an emotional break. I disagree with Mr. Shelby’s opinion. I suspect that, rather than a substitute teacher, this person who noticed Kyron missing when she did the headcount was a volunteer chaperone. If we read T mother’s statements in this article:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
“Carol Moulton said the kids were supposed to report to their classes and be divided into small groups of a few students each. Each group was supposed to tour the science fair with a chaperone. Afterward, when they returned to their classes for roll call, Kyron wasn't there, she said.”
To me it is clear that if the classes were to be divided into smaller groups then they must have had some adults there other than the teachers, because the ratio of chaperone to kids was higher than usual for these Science Fair tours.
Both of these news articles were published very early on in the search for Kyron, and I believe, before involved parties were asked not to talk to the media.
The quote in my previous post from Gina Zimmerman PTA president corroborates with Carol Moulton's description of the small groups taking the tour.
I think T Pused the word, "Substitute" when he should have said "Volunteer Parent Chaperone"
I think this information also answers the question about whether there was a substitute in Kyron's class for the day. There was not. Mrs. Porter taught the class as usual, but she had at least one volunteer helper during the time from 8:45 to 10:00 when the students were meant to be touring the Expo in small chaperoned groups.
That makes me think that Kyron went missing while he was in the care of some not publicly identified parent volunteer.
Cher352
06-17-2010, 07:40 AM
Is there any information regarding the 'electricity' science fair project? Where it was located in the school (if it existed at all?)
This is what I asked about several times on the old discussion thread before we got this forum but never got any info. I really want to know if there was an Electricity Project or if someone told Kryon about it as a ruse to get it him away from the others.
Or if there was a project like this can anyone around that exhibit confirm that Kryon even made it there. This info could nail down the last place he was seen inside the school.
kikid
06-17-2010, 09:23 AM
a few more quotes from media articles about the expo:
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx
“Eight-year-old TP says the first person to notice Kyron Horman missing was a substitute teacher who was taking a head count as the second and third grade class was re-assembling after visiting other classrooms for a science fair at Skyline School last Friday.
"And she was like 'oh no where's Kyron there's only five' and Mrs. Porter was like it's okay calm down, calm down he's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I'm going to leave and she left, " says T P.
But, Portland Public School spokesman Matt Shelby said the account can't be true: "There were no substitutes at the school that day (the day Kyron disappeared)," he said.”
This is the same article that includes comments from T’s grandmother admitting that T had been asked not to speak with the media, but she elected to allow him to do so anyway. I hope she hasn’t seriously compromised this investigation.
The article also discusses that Portland School District Spokesperson, Matt Shelby believes that T is confused because substitutes were called in the week following Kyron’s disappearance to act as relief to teachers who might need an emotional break. I disagree with Mr. Shelby’s opinion. I suspect that, rather than a substitute teacher, this person who noticed Kyron missing when she did the headcount was a volunteer chaperone. If we read T’s mother’s statements in this article:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
“Carol Moulton said the kids were supposed to report to their classes and be divided into small groups of a few students each. Each group was supposed to tour the science fair with a chaperone. Afterward, when they returned to their classes for roll call, Kyron wasn't there, she said.”
To me it is clear that if the classes were to be divided into smaller groups then they must have had some adults there other than the teachers, because the ratio of chaperone to kids was higher than usual for these Science Fair tours.
Both of these news articles were published very early on in the search for Kyron, and I believe, before involved parties were asked not to talk to the media.
The quote in my previous post from Gina Zimmerman PTA president corroborates with Carol Moulton's description of the small groups taking the tour.
I think T used the word, "Substitute" when he should have said "Volunteer Parent Chaperone"
I think this information also answers the question about whether there was a substitute in Kyron's class for the day. There was not. Mrs. Porter taught the class as usual, but she had at least one volunteer helper during the time from 8:45 to 10:00 when the students were meant to be touring the Expo in small chaperoned groups.
That makes me think that Kyron went missing while he was in the care of some not publicly identified parent volunteer.
Now in this statement we have Mrs Porter (his teacher?) saying to calm down, calm down, he's probably in the bathroom or something.... Is Mrs. Porter his teacher, the same teacher who thought SM told her across a crowded room that he had an appointment and was leaving with SM??? If so, I think this is hinky she couldn't believe that he left with SM and think he was just getting a drink or going potty one would have to either be an untruth or sheer confusion - I've known a few scatterbrained teachers while raising my four kids so this is possible too. jmo
editing to add: re: appt What parent tells a teacher across a crowded room about an appointment a week in advance??? none, you send a note the day before or call in the morning of the appt., at least that is my personal experience with such things.
Emeralgem
06-17-2010, 10:07 AM
In the grade school my granddaugher attended IF a child had an appointment during school hours the parent or guardian had to send a note or call the school to tell them what time the appointment was scheduled for.. The parent or guaridan had to report to the school office and sign in.. The child would report to the school office.. The parent or guardian would have to sign the child out... If child was returning to school that day, the parent or guardian would have to do the same when the child returned...Sign the child back in and sign themselves out..
There was a time when a parent could just inform a teacher their child had an appointment and take the child... but that was then... This is now..
Also, my granddaughter is now in high school and still the parent/s or guardian are required to notify the school if the child is going to be absent, late or has to leave early.. Also, if arriving late due to an appointment with doctor or dentist the child has to have proof they had an appointment when they sign in...If they leave for an appointment, they have to sign out and when they return have proof as to the reason they left early...
BeanE
06-17-2010, 10:12 AM
Jessigirl... If you want I will start a thread about the talent show...
Would you please, butterfly? Then we can keep this thread about the science fair.
Thanks so much.
BeanE
06-17-2010, 10:15 AM
Can we confirm from a credible source who all was invited/allowed to attend the fair? Parents only? Other family members, friends of the family, adults only, teens okay, non-student children family and/or friends, neighbors, grandparents, people with no relationship to any students or the school, who?
We need to distinguish who was invited/expected to attend, from who might have been able to wander in due to the lack of security.
Quiche
06-17-2010, 03:22 PM
I notice, in the picture of Kyron in front of his project, that all the other displays are already in place. Was Kyron's project put up that morning, when the others were done the day before? It just seems so deserted in there...
It's been soooo long since I participated in a Science Fair-- does anyone here have a reference on when the projects are usually put up? tia
jessigirl
06-17-2010, 08:10 PM
.
"He walked by the hallway and I'm like, 'Hi, Kyron,' and he's like, 'Hi. I'm going to go see this cool one. It's electric.' I'm like, 'Alright, bye.' And that's the last time I saw him," T said. "He never did make it back to class."
http://www.kptv.com/news/23842774/detail.html
[B]so if this statement from Kyron's best friend T is true than how do explain the huge inconsistency with the following statement
~snip the first person to notice Kyron Horman was missing was a substitute teacher who was taking a head count as the second and third grade class was re-assembling after visiting other classrooms for a science fair at Skyline School last Friday.
"And she was like 'oh no where's Kyron there's only five' and Mrs. Porter was like it's okay calm down, calm down he's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I'm going to leave and she left, " says T.
~snip says Kyron was in school for at least an hour Friday morning and that he saw Kyron's step-mother leave the school without Kyron.
~snip Upon hearing the substitute teacher noticing that Kyron was not present in the classroom, P says the regular teacher said Kyron had probably gone to get a drink of water or to use the bathroom.
~snip P's grandmother says F-B-I agents and Multnomah County investigators have asked P and his grandmother not to speak with the media, for reasons they did not divulge. Fuhrur says she decided to allow her grandson talk ~end snip
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/ne...P3tb3MkZg.cspx
[I believe the "substitute" was an adult chaperone for the group of 6 that Kyron was supposedly in] I understood this above statement to mean that upon returning to Mrs. Porter's classroom that the chaperone did a final head count and voiced concern when she realized their were only 5 students and that Kyron was the one unaccounted for.(this tells me that Kyron was in the classroom when the students were divided into small groups and then headed out to tour the science fair) Mrs. Porter seems to tell the chaperone that he[Kyron] is probably just in bathroom or at water fountain. The chaperone then leaves.... Therefore this statement is contradicting the statement that T gives saying Kyron never made it back to the classroom when they then divided into smaller groups for the tour, rather Kyron was last seen in the hall alone setting off to see the "electric" science project
Any opinions on the contradictions?
gwenabob
06-17-2010, 10:45 PM
. says that is the last he saw of Kyron because Kyron never made it back to the classroom
"He walked by the hallway and I'm like, 'Hi, Kyron,' and he's like, 'Hi. I'm going to go see this cool one. It's electric.' I'm like, 'Alright, bye.' And that's the last time I saw him," T said. "He never did make it back to class."
http://www.kptv.com/news/23842774/detail.html
so if this statement from Kyron's best friend T is true than how do explain the huge inconsistency with the following statement
~snip the first person to notice Kyron Horman was missing was a substitute teacher who was taking a head count as the second and third grade class was re-assembling after visiting other classrooms for a science fair at Skyline School last Friday.
"And she was like 'oh no where's Kyron there's only five' and Mrs. Porter was like it's okay calm down, calm down he's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I'm going to leave and she left, " says T.
~snip T says Kyron was in school for at least an hour Friday morning and that he saw Kyron's step-mother leave the school without Kyron.
~snip Upon hearing the substitute teacher noticing that Kyron was not present in the classroom, P says the regular teacher said Kyron had probably gone to get a drink of water or to use the bathroom.
~snip P's grandmother says F-B-I agents and Multnomah County investigators have asked P and his grandmother not to speak with the media, for reasons they did not divulge. Fuhrur says she decided to allow her grandson talk ~end snip
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/ne...P3tb3MkZg.cspx
[I believe the "substitute" was an adult chaperone for the group of 6 that Kyron was supposedly in] I understood this above statement to mean that upon returning to Mrs. Porter's classroom that the chaperone did a final head count and voiced concern when she realized their were only 5 students and that Kyron was the one unaccounted for.(this tells me that Kyron was in the classroom when the students were divided into small groups and then headed out to tour the science fair) Mrs. Porter seems to tell the chaperone that he[Kyron] is probably just in bathroom or at water fountain. The chaperone then leaves.... Therefore this statement is contracting the statement that T gives saying Kyron never made it back to the classroom when they then divided into smaller groups for the tour, rather Kyron was last seen in the hall alone setting off to see the "electric" science project
Any opinions on the contradictions?
Thank you! I have been thinking about this contradiction all day. T gives contradictory information. Either he left to go see the "electric exhibit" or he was in class and in a group for the tour. If there really was a cool electric exhibit, I would think Twould have seen it and not spoken of it in the abstract--"a cool electric" vs "the cool electric" if he had seen it as well.
Personally, I am thinking he never got to the classroom for the tour. I think he was gone before that. And I don't think there was an electric exhibit and I think it was a ruse to get him out of the school.
If it is true that the teacher thought Kyron was getting a drink, maybe she did think that for a minute, and then remembered that Terri had said something about an appointment and figured he went with her. She did not owe T any explanation.
scandi
06-18-2010, 12:26 AM
I just have the beginning of a theory sparked by the last words we have from Kyron about his being off to visit the electrical project as he passed his classroom door around 9am.
It has seemed odd to me that Kyron wanted to go see the electrical exhibit right away, not waiting to go with his class group of 6. It's been a gnawin' at me for days now.
BANG It just hit me as to why. He knew he had to leave school to get picked up and wouldn't be there for the tour. He wasn't about to miss that project IMO.
I think his comment about going to see this project in that set of circumstances could be the nitty gritty to solving this case and naming those involved.
gwenabob
06-18-2010, 12:30 AM
I just have the beginning of a theory sparked by the last words we have from Kyron about his being off to visit the electrical project as he passed his classroom door around 9am.
It has seemed odd to me that Kyron wanted to go see the electrical exhibit right away, not waiting to go with his class group of 6. It's been a gnawin' at me for days now.
BANG It just hit me as to why. He knew he had to leave school to get picked up and wouldn't be there for the tour. He wasn't about to miss that project IMO.
I think his comment about going to see this project in that set of circumstances could be the nitty gritty to solving this case and naming those involved.
DING DING DING DING!! There we go, folks. Maybe he saw it with his mom, knew he would not have another chance, and ran back to see it real quick before he had to take off to an...um...'appointment'?
Wise Old Owl
06-18-2010, 12:32 AM
DING DING DING DING!! There we go, folks. Maybe he saw it with his mom, knew he would not have another chance, and ran back to see it real quick before he had to take off to an...um...'appointment'?
I've been thinking that Kyron told someone else about seeing the electric project too. While in that conversation he realized he left his "math book, homework, lunch money, lunch," something in the car. It was then arranged that he would meet the car just outside that south door - actually run out to the car - to get whatever it was he forgot - then he could go on to see the electric project or he went to the electric project first and watched for the car on his way back......JMO
scandi
06-18-2010, 12:44 AM
I was totally frustrated after I had my Gestalt moment and the Theories thread got locked. So I posted what I could here as it was partially about the electrical project. lol
Now I realize it is very difficult to not mix the discussion of that project with a theory on what really happened that morning. I'm headed back over to the Theory thread as I think it is back open again.
What a night, eh?
Shutterfly
06-18-2010, 02:28 AM
Think maybe the "electricity project" could have something to do with one of these? It just occurred to me that I saw more than one of my kids introduced to one of these in 2nd grade. It's that thing you put your hands on and your hair stands on end. It's purpose, I think, is to illustrate the nature of static electricity. It's a plasma ball, in the unlikely event that any of you haven't seen one.
I'm just sayin'...
If you wanna get little kids attention, one of these will have them flocked around you like the ice cream truck. There's nothing quite like seeing your best friends hair stick straight out like a troll.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af1/WebsleuthsCommunityAlbums/Kyron/plamaball.jpg
SunsetHeel
06-19-2010, 01:44 PM
The focus of the day at the school seems to have been the IB Expo. International Baccalaureate programs can be controversial in some school districts. The Skyline website states: Skyline is currently a candidate school for the IB PYP and MYP Programmes. So they aren't technically accepted yet. The Portland School system is undergoing some fiscal adjustments. The Willamette Weekly had an article the morning that Kyron disappeared about the high school realignment. If someone was angry about the proposed changes and wanted to change the direction, would they have thought that the school would not be approved for the IB program if they lost a child during the IB Expo? It is expensive to be an IB school. This is a rather far fetched scenario but it is something I have been wondering about. An IB expo is not a traditional science fair, an International Baccalaureate program is an international based curriculum. It isn't guided by the local school board. You have to follow the curriclum that comes from Europe.
grandmaj
06-19-2010, 06:53 PM
NO sleuthing minors or mentioning minor's names. This is a big :nono:
Mylou
06-20-2010, 04:00 PM
This electric exhibit really plays on my mind. Has anyone found out if it even existed? Where it was suppose to be exhibited? Who told Kyron about it? Were any other children aware or told of its existence/non existence?
angelmom
06-20-2010, 04:40 PM
this statement is contradicting the statement that T gives saying Kyron never made it back to the classroom when they then divided into smaller groups for the tour, rather Kyron was last seen in the hall alone setting off to see the "electric" science project
Any opinions on the contradictions?
Thank you! I have been thinking about this contradiction all day. T gives contradictory information. Either he left to go see the "electric exhibit" or he was in class and in a group for the tour. If there really was a cool electric exhibit, I would think T would have seen it and not spoken of it in the abstract--"a cool electric" vs "the cool electric" if he had seen it as well.
Unless...T and Kyron were not in the same group. Say the teacher was in the room and, as enough children arrived, sending them with the chaperone to see the exhibits. Since we know Kyron was there early, maybe he was in one of the first groups. It is possible that T and Kyron saw one another when T was on his way into the classroom and Kyron was already in a group (loosely) and on his way to see the cool electric exhibit.
So Kyron goes along with the rest of his group, T goes into the classroom and is added to a different group, and they don't cross paths.
If the groups were kind of loose - as in, we're going to 6th grade first and we walk sort of together but not really in a line or anything (it's only 5-6 kids and the hallways are likely crowded with other classes doing the same thing) and then they visit 6th grade. When it's time to switch rooms, the leader gathers them up and they go onto the next grade, and I would assume she would count each time. (But maybe not).
If the chaperone can't swear to when she last saw Kyron with the group, then T could be right. When the groups recollected in the classroom, that could be when the chaperone noticed him missing, and T would have been there.
That could also be why the timeline has been so hazy - maybe the chaperone isn't really sure (maybe she doesn't know all the kids very well) and the kids statements about the last time he was with the group conflict...well then LE would be very careful b/c of dealing with young kids AND not having a time they can confirm.
In the same way, if the teacher thought Kyron was in the bathroom, she may have looked for him or asked another teacher to look for him when he didn't return promptly. All it would take is another teacher saying, "I saw him with Terri...maybe they left. Half my class is gone!" or the teacher wondering if she misunderstood about the appointment and assuming that she must have.
It is not necessary that any of these statements are contradictory. We have not seen the complete statements - only bits and pieces.
Kimster
06-20-2010, 04:53 PM
STOP typing out the names of minors!
KNOCK IT OFF COMPLETELY!!!
Link to the source naming the minor if you'd like, use initials as listed on the source or even better you can post "Kyron's friend".
We need to do our best ABOVE AND BEYOND to protect minors!
Please edit your posts or alert your post if it has the name of a minor and we will edit it for you.
Kyron is the ONLY MINOR I want to see the name of posted in this forum!
momtective
06-20-2010, 04:54 PM
I just wonder if the Dam on Sauvie Island could be considered an electric project.
scandi
06-20-2010, 05:00 PM
I just wonder if the Dam on Sauvie Island could be considered an electric project.
Does it have a powerhouse?
Also wanted to say :hand:
RoughlyCollie
06-20-2010, 05:07 PM
BANG It just hit me as to why. He knew he had to leave school to get picked up and wouldn't be there for the tour. He wasn't about to miss that project IMO.
I think his comment about going to see this project in that set of circumstances could be the nitty gritty to solving this case and naming those involved.
I think he knew he was leaving school, too. I wonder if he mentioned it to anyone. Maybe that's one reason for the questionnaire.
IF SM turns out to be the perp, I wonder if she let him wear that CSI t-shirt on purpose, as just another revenge/anger manifestation of a twisted mind.
momtective
06-20-2010, 05:08 PM
Does it have a powerhouse?
Also wanted to say :hand:
Have no clue what it has but in my mind it would be a terrific electric project to see for a 7 year-old.
:hand: back at cha Scandi.
Noway
06-20-2010, 05:32 PM
There may have been an exhibit at the science fair that lead to someone telling Kyron about "a cool electric exhibit" but IMO this was a way to get him out of the school.
From the photos I looked at, posted in the Skyline Elementary thread (page 2), there was no place for a car to park near the exit closest to his classroom. He would have had to meet someone at another place on the grounds. That doesn't mean he didn't go out that door, just that from there, he went somewhere else.
I found this blog (odd in places IMO) about the dam. I don't know if there is anything useful here ... just reading it now. ETA: There are "Powerhouse" photos ... view from Table Mountain Trail if that means anything ...
http://thenarrativeimage.blogspot.com/2008/01/bonneville-dam-columbia-river.html
scandi
06-20-2010, 05:35 PM
I think he knew he was leaving school, too. I wonder if he mentioned it to anyone. Maybe that's one reason for the questionnaire.
IF SM turns out to be the perp, I wonder if she let him wear that CSI t-shirt on purpose, as just another revenge/anger manifestation of a twisted mind.
WOW, great thinking Roughly. You could be right on both counts !
scandi
06-20-2010, 05:41 PM
There may have been an exhibit at the science fair that lead to someone telling Kyron about "a cool electric exhibit" but IMO this was a way to get him out of the school.
From the photos I looked at, posted in the Skyline Elementary thread (page 2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5313412&postcount=50)), there was no place for a car to park near the exit closest to his classroom. He would have had to meet someone at another place on the grounds. That doesn't mean he didn't go out that door, just that from there, he went somewhere else.
I found this blog (odd in places IMO) about the dam. I don't know if there is anything useful here ... just reading it now. ETA: There are "Powerhouse" photos ... view from Table Mountain Trail if that means anything ...
http://thenarrativeimage.blogspot.com/2008/01/bonneville-dam-columbia-river.htmlBonneville Dam is about 40 miles up the Columbia River East of Portland. Is there some link to it with the case? Ta
Calliope
06-20-2010, 05:50 PM
.T says that is the last he saw of Kyron because Kyron never made it back to the classroom
"He walked by the hallway and I'm like, 'Hi, Kyron,' and he's like, 'Hi. I'm going to go see this cool one. It's electric.' I'm like, 'Alright, bye.' And that's the last time I saw him," T said. "He never did make it back to class."
http://www.kptv.com/news/23842774/detail.html
so if this statement from Kyron's best friend T is true than how do explain the huge inconsistency with the following statement
~snip the first person to notice Kyron Horman was missing was a substitute teacher who was taking a head count as the second and third grade class was re-assembling after visiting other classrooms for a science fair at Skyline School last Friday.
"And she was like 'oh no where's Kyron there's only five' and Mrs. Porter was like it's okay calm down, calm down he's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I'm going to leave and she left, " says T.
~snip T says Kyron was in school for at least an hour Friday morning and that he saw Kyron's step-mother leave the school without Kyron.
~snip Upon hearing the substitute teacher noticing that Kyron was not present in the classroom, T says the regular teacher said Kyron had probably gone to get a drink of water or to use the bathroom.
~snip T's grandmother says F-B-I agents and Multnomah County investigators have asked T's and his grandmother not to speak with the media, for reasons they did not divulge. Fuhrur says she decided to allow her grandson talk ~end snip
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/ne...P3tb3MkZg.cspx
[I believe the "substitute" was an adult chaperone for the group of 6 that Kyron was supposedly in] I understood this above statement to mean that upon returning to Mrs. Porter's classroom that the chaperone did a final head count and voiced concern when she realized their were only 5 students and that Kyron was the one unaccounted for.(this tells me that Kyron was in the classroom when the students were divided into small groups and then headed out to tour the science fair) Mrs. Porter seems to tell the chaperone that he[Kyron] is probably just in bathroom or at water fountain. The chaperone then leaves.... Therefore this statement is contradicting the statement that T gives saying Kyron never made it back to the classroom when they then divided into smaller groups for the tour, rather Kyron was last seen in the hall alone setting off to see the "electric" science project
Any opinions on the contradictions?
He may have last seen Kyron as he describes AND heard the teacher/chaperone's conversation if he was not in the same group as kyron. His statement that he "never made it back to class" isn't necessarily a contradiction. I took it to mean he didn't make it back as they had finished their group tours.
I think it was the reporter who made the assumption Kyron was there at least an hour based upon T's statement. IOW, the reporter knew the kids were coming back to their classes shortly before 10 to start their day, so he put two and two together (that it was apparent Kyron was in the group and wasn't missed until the group returned to class). I don't think the boy actually said that himself.
Noway
06-20-2010, 05:51 PM
Bonneville Dam is about 40 miles up the Columbia River East of Portland. Is there some link to it with the case? Ta
Maybe not.
What is the dam on Sauvie Island? TIA
From this:
I just wonder if the Dam on Sauvie Island could be considered an electric project.
momtective
06-20-2010, 06:42 PM
Maybe not.
What is the dam on Sauvie Island? TIA
From this:
I googled earlier because I didn't even know if there was a Dam on Sauvie...this is one of what I found mentioning Sauvie Island Dam near Scappoose. http://www.hookandbullet.com/fishing-sauvie-island-dam-scappoose-or/
DidionFan
06-20-2010, 06:53 PM
Is my understanding correct that the project was already set up at the school? The reports I read said he was anxious to show it to his SM, which made it seem as though it was already set up. do we know for certain?
Hi JBean - I have been trying to find reliable source material on this - my early recollection from news was: the whole reason TH drove that morning was so Kyron wouldn't have to carry his project on the bus. Yet the early morning photo has a pretty empty classroom (people are just arriving), and yet the projects are fully set up - like, all the desks are ready. Wanting to "show off" the project seems also like it was set up the day before, and he wanted to show his display set up on his desk. I am a little confused on this, and I don't know what difference it really makes, because TH could have equally driven him that morning so she could look at the projects with him, regardless of when they were set up or brought to school - seems like many kids would have been driven to school vs taking a bus that morning.
But the discrepancy still bothers me, because it's not clear, and could be important...And also because I could promise up and down I read that she drove because they brought the project that morning, (and think I also read they had worked on it all night, but that may have mentioned elsewhere), yet they seem like they were set up the day before...in which case, a parent would have helped that day, too?
DidionFan
06-20-2010, 07:09 PM
Is my understanding correct that the project was already set up at the school? The reports I read said he was anxious to show it to his SM, which made it seem as though it was already set up. do we know for certain?
Here's an Oregonian article:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
It says both. Article implies Kyron was excited to show off this exhibit, kind of sounds like the ride to school was more the parents touring exhibits, already set up.
Later, CM says, "He was so excited about his science project," said Carol Moulton, Horman's mother and Kyron's grandmother. "They had worked on it together. He was anxious to take it to school and show it off."
But, I don't know how exact CM's statement should be read - talking to press early on, being a grandma living out of the household, condensing facts, she may have not literally meant "taking the project that morning," as she wasn't there and may not have known the background of the fair...so....My gut says they were set up the night before.
The only other issue is the picture: I thought there was something about that that they'd stayed up all night before the fair finishing it...but that may have not been news source I am running off of...
Again, either way - TH would have driven him anyway to look at his project...Who brought it to school and when is not confirmed.
scandi
06-20-2010, 07:36 PM
Maybe not.
What is the dam on Sauvie Island? TIA
From this:
Re: Sauvie Island Dam
Looks like it is by Guiles Lake up towards Scappoose. It is near the Shady Cove Store and RV Park. I can't find a photo of it but this link talks about how there are little dams on the island that control the level of the water:
http://www.hikercentral.com/campgrounds/109838.html
I think we need to hear from a local poster but see there is a map of the area at this link. xox
DidionFan
06-20-2010, 07:54 PM
Is my understanding correct that the project was already set up at the school? The reports I read said he was anxious to show it to his SM, which made it seem as though it was already set up. do we know for certain?
JBean - just finished reading every arrticle posted by Oregonian - all state TH and Kyron went to see/tour fair, or Kyron was showing of his exhibit, in my opinion, they were already set up.
99% sure my discrepancy was due to CM's statement in Oregonian (my previous post), and non-news source post (private social media site).
samsmom
06-20-2010, 08:31 PM
Regarding the observations of the advanced look of Kyron's Science Fair project - When my daughter was little we always worked on her Reading Fair projects together. There were different classifications to be judged - Individual and Family. We always entered in the Family category.
Perhaps the Science Fair has the same category setup?
DidionFan
06-20-2010, 08:43 PM
I know there are articles that address who was welcome to attend the science fair, as well as a picture of the sign outside the school announcing the fair. On that note, I am reposting a reminder article (from June 13th) saying that LE requested traffic footage for both June 3rd (day before) AND June 4th (day of) Kyron went missing.
Link with requested roads:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...affic_foo.html
Maybe looking for repeated drive-by's, etc....
Here's a re-post of the pic, previously posted on WS - I am new to WS, but I believe it's cranky's photobucket album for kyron?
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Kyron%20Horman%20%20-OR-/6610sign.jpg
gwenabob
06-20-2010, 09:00 PM
Regarding the observations of the advanced look of Kyron's Science Fair project - When my daughter was little we always worked on her Reading Fair projects together. There were different classifications to be judged - Individual and Family. We always entered in the Family category.
Perhaps the Science Fair has the same category setup?
No judging. Exhibits only. Not really even a science fair. IB exhibit. Different things.
Razzle
06-21-2010, 09:09 PM
I couldn't find a thread already dedicated to discussing this. Am I the only one who thinks Kyron's science fair project was mostly constructed by an adult or much older child? I have a very talented 7 year old son (who attends a Portland public school) and that project would be waaaay beyond his abilities. The other projects in the pictures look like they were constructed by young children.
jessigirl
06-22-2010, 08:42 PM
Here are 2 more pictures of Kyron's Tree Frog Project. (both are an up close view of the intricate detail that went into the project)
ETA: I had not seen these posted here, but if they are duplicates feel free to delete...
PortlandMama
06-22-2010, 09:38 PM
Unless...T and Kyron were not in the same group. Say the teacher was in the room and, as enough children arrived, sending them with the chaperone to see the exhibits. Since we know Kyron was there early, maybe he was in one of the first groups. It is possible that T and Kyron saw one another when T was on his way into the classroom and Kyron was already in a group (loosely) and on his way to see the cool electric exhibit.
So Kyron goes along with the rest of his group, T goes into the classroom and is added to a different group, and they don't cross paths.
If the groups were kind of loose - as in, we're going to 6th grade first and we walk sort of together but not really in a line or anything (it's only 5-6 kids and the hallways are likely crowded with other classes doing the same thing) and then they visit 6th grade. When it's time to switch rooms, the leader gathers them up and they go onto the next grade, and I would assume she would count each time. (But maybe not).
If the chaperone can't swear to when she last saw Kyron with the group, then T could be right. When the groups recollected in the classroom, that could be when the chaperone noticed him missing, and T would have been there.
That could also be why the timeline has been so hazy - maybe the chaperone isn't really sure (maybe she doesn't know all the kids very well) and the kids statements about the last time he was with the group conflict...well then LE would be very careful b/c of dealing with young kids AND not having a time they can confirm.
In the same way, if the teacher thought Kyron was in the bathroom, she may have looked for him or asked another teacher to look for him when he didn't return promptly. All it would take is another teacher saying, "I saw him with Terri...maybe they left. Half my class is gone!" or the teacher wondering if she misunderstood about the appointment and assuming that she must have.
It is not necessary that any of these statements are contradictory. We have not seen the complete statements - only bits and pieces.
Yes, yes, yes, AngelMom. This is exactly what I've been thinking. Thank you for stating it so clearly! (I got frustrated last night when my lengthy post on this part of the scenario vanished inexplicably into cyberspace and it was time to put the kids to bed. You have made it all better now.:blowkiss:)
Calliope
06-23-2010, 01:22 AM
Here are 2 more pictures of Kyron's Tree Frog Project. (both are an up close view of the intricate detail that went into the project)
ETA: I had not seen these posted here, but if they are duplicates feel free to delete...
Strange. I thought the paper on the front of the box was torn in the photo taken that morning. I'll have to enlarge it and look again.
carole
06-23-2010, 02:11 AM
Here are 2 more pictures of Kyron's Tree Frog Project. (both are an up close view of the intricate detail that went into the project)
ETA: I had not seen these posted here, but if they are duplicates feel free to delete...
Where did you find these? I hadn't seen these, were they close ups or did you crop them?
mistivon
06-23-2010, 02:35 AM
The electrical project thing just reminded me of something I found earlier, though I highly doubt related.
A poster in the Dreams/Visions thread asked about a "Buffalo Ridge", IIRC they were getting that as some kind of message (don't shoot me, I'm not good at that stuff, but fascinated by it, yes).
The only BuffaloRidge related that I could find is an ELECTRICAL project on the minn/dak border iirc, ran by a Portland construction company, aptly titled "Buffalo Ridge Transmission Lines", where they are bringing in more electricity to certain areas.
Now, that's creepy, imo......construction company from portland, working that far away......wonder if the school had had any contractors out recently for anything.
far fetched, I know, but still....
jessigirl
06-23-2010, 02:46 AM
Where did you find these? I hadn't seen these, were they close ups or did you crop them?
I found them on one of the many many news media links for kyron. It was from a link that I went to in one of these threads that linked to a news media and i found the link there that had a couple of pics dealing with kyron(there were actually a couple other pics but they had other ppl that I didn't think I should post along with Kyron in the pics, some very interesting tho)I'll have to search thru my computer tho to fink what link they originated from because these were saved to my computer earlier and then just uploaded them when I came across them today on my laptop.
sofia76
06-23-2010, 02:49 AM
The dad helped with the diorama, apparently.
He was very excited about his Red Eyed Tree Frog diorama and poster board that he and his dad had been working on. Kyron was very proud of the project because he had done a lot of the diorama himself.
http://www.kxl.com/SEARCH-FOR-KYRON--Family-Statement-Coming/7399304
carole
06-23-2010, 02:52 AM
I found them on one of the many many news media links for kyron. It was from a link that I went to in one of these threads that linked to a news media and i found the link there that had a couple of pics dealing with kyron(there were actually a couple other pics but they had other ppl that I didn't think I should post along with Kyron in the pics, some very interesting tho)I'll have to search thru my computer tho to fink what link they originated from because these were saved to my computer earlier and then just uploaded them when I came across them today on my laptop.
I was just interested in them, I hadn't seem them before I'd only seen the ones where you can see the whole project. Thanks.
nomoresorrow
06-23-2010, 02:57 AM
(BBM)
"He walked by the hallway and I'm like, 'Hi, Kyron,' and he's like, 'Hi. I'm going to go see this cool one. It's electric.' I'm like, 'Alright, bye.' And that's the last time I saw him," T said. "He never did make it back to class."
http://www.kptv.com/news/23842774/detail.html
I haven't been able to shake a feeling I've had since first hearing this comment made by "T". I believe that this could very well be the last statement Kyron made to anyone before he fell into the pre-set trap of a predator. Two things stand out to me that Kyron tells "T"; it's "cool" and it's "electric". At the time that "T" spoke to Kyron, Kyron was on his way to see this project so 1) how did Kyron know about this project? And 2) who told him it was cool? I've had a very strong feeling (a feeling I just can't seem to shake) that it was the person responsible for taking and harming Kyron. I'd like to know if LE looked into this further and determined if there really was a student with an electric project. If there was, I hope they've looked closely at this student. If there wasn't an electric project at the expo that day, then I hope LE will look at anyone (adult) who may have been on the school property that morning that may have 1) delivered lightbulbs (Grainger; http://www.pps.k12.or.us/departments/facilities/3092.htm) 2) been there to make an electrical repair (PPS has 9 electricians on their maintenance crew; http://www.pps.k12.or.us/departments/facilities/2751.htm) 3) serviced broken janitorial equipment, i.e., floor sweeper, floor stripper/waxing machine 4) serviced or inspected fire alarm system/equipment or 5) set up sound system (mics) and/or lights for the talent show that was being held that afternoon. Anyone who is somehow connected to electrical work. I believe this person lured Kyron; "Have you seen the electric project? You've got to see it - it's really cool." I think the word "cool" was used/chosen by him/her so they appeared more youthful, in tune with, and connected to someone Kyron's age. If there really wasn't an electric project at the expo that day, I believe the perp chose and used that as the bait to lure Kyron because he/she (the perp) has a connection to it. MOO ~
jessigirl
06-23-2010, 02:59 AM
This may sound ignorant to some but honestly have BEEN wondering but keep forgetting to ask what exactly is an "IB Exhibit"?? I'm still young enough(or maybe just really good&vivid memory?)that I can even recall every year's science project all the way up til 6th grade(this is when we quit doing them at my school) and have a son that is in middle school so have all of his years projects and fair in mind too and I've never heard of an IB exhibit(I know not anything to be joking about) but SERIOUSLY the way I even keep remembering Skyline's science fair is by IB[I.rritable B.owel], the IB exhibit. So, TIA to anyone who wants to take a sec to let me know just what the heck is the IB exhibit?
ETA: I am certain once told what it stands for I will feel all the more ignorant...:blushing:
mistivon
06-23-2010, 02:59 AM
ITA, which is why I posted what I did. Believe I'm leaning more in that direction now for the first time.
sofia76
06-23-2010, 03:24 AM
This may sound ignorant to some but honestly have BEEN wondering but keep forgetting to ask what exactly is an "IB Exhibit"?? I'm still young enough(or maybe just really good&vivid memory?)that I can even recall every year's science project all the way up til 6th grade(this is when we quit doing them at my school) and have a son that is in middle school so have all of his years projects and fair in mind too and I've never heard of an IB exhibit(I know not anything to be joking about) but SERIOUSLY the way I even keep remembering Skyline's science fair is by IB[I.rritable B.owel], the IB exhibit. So, TIA to anyone who wants to take a sec to let me know just what the heck is the IB exhibit?
ETA: I am certain once told what it stands for I will feel all the more ignorant...:blushing:
It stands for International Baccalaureate ... which is an international curriculum for students.
mistivon
06-23-2010, 03:31 AM
Does anyone remember specifics about I believe it was an old, gray truck sighting with a boy looking like Kyron in the window?
If so, was it mentioned if the driver was male or female, and if they appeared to be on their way out of town?
Calliope
06-23-2010, 09:37 AM
Where did you find these? I hadn't seen these, were they close ups or did you crop them?
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/photo/kyron-noglassesjpg-cc969e0971b99405.jpg
It was torn in the photo supposedly taken early Friday. There was one other, taken by a news photographer; I'll have to find it and see if it shows it torn too. Maybe someone taped it up for him. If not, I'm really curious who took these other shots and when (I notice the background is different in the two posted by jessi and the one in this link).
Reality Orlando
06-23-2010, 09:54 AM
.
"He walked by the hallway and I'm like, 'Hi, Kyron,' and he's like, 'Hi. I'm going to go see this cool one. It's electric.' I'm like, 'Alright, bye.' And that's the last time I saw him," T said. "He never did make it back to class."
http://www.kptv.com/news/23842774/detail.html
[B]so if this statement from Kyron's best friend T is true than how do explain the huge inconsistency with the following statement
~snip the first person to notice Kyron Horman was missing was a substitute teacher who was taking a head count as the second and third grade class was re-assembling after visiting other classrooms for a science fair at Skyline School last Friday.
"And she was like 'oh no where's Kyron there's only five' and Mrs. Porter was like it's okay calm down, calm down he's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I'm going to leave and she left, " says T.
~snip says Kyron was in school for at least an hour Friday morning and that he saw Kyron's step-mother leave the school without Kyron.
~snip Upon hearing the substitute teacher noticing that Kyron was not present in the classroom, P says the regular teacher said Kyron had probably gone to get a drink of water or to use the bathroom.
~snip P's grandmother says F-B-I agents and Multnomah County investigators have asked P and his grandmother not to speak with the media, for reasons they did not divulge. Fuhrur says she decided to allow her grandson talk ~end snip
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/ne...P3tb3MkZg.cspx
[I believe the "substitute" was an adult chaperone for the group of 6 that Kyron was supposedly in] I understood this above statement to mean that upon returning to Mrs. Porter's classroom that the chaperone did a final head count and voiced concern when she realized their were only 5 students and that Kyron was the one unaccounted for.(this tells me that Kyron was in the classroom when the students were divided into small groups and then headed out to tour the science fair) Mrs. Porter seems to tell the chaperone that he[Kyron] is probably just in bathroom or at water fountain. The chaperone then leaves.... Therefore this statement is contradicting the statement that T gives saying Kyron never made it back to the classroom when they then divided into smaller groups for the tour, rather Kyron was last seen in the hall alone setting off to see the "electric" science project
Any opinions on the contradictions?
The only thing I can think of is that the groups left independently once they were assigned to their chaperones. Perhaps T was in the first group out just after he saw Kyron, then Kyron came back and was assigned to one of the latter groups to leave.
hollye
06-23-2010, 10:08 AM
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/photo/kyron-noglassesjpg-cc969e0971b99405.jpg
It was torn in the photo supposedly taken early Friday. There was one other, taken by a news photographer; I'll have to find it and see if it shows it torn too. Maybe someone taped it up for him. If not, I'm really curious who took these other shots and when (I notice the background is different in the two posted by jessi and the one in this link).
If you compare the 2 photos where you can see the front of the box, it looks like the part that has separated (I can not say for certain that it is torn, maybe just a natural seam where 2 pieces of paper were pieced together) at the seam, may be off just out of camera shot of the close up.
Calliope
06-23-2010, 10:16 AM
If you compare the 2 photos where you can see the front of the box, it looks like the part that has separated (I can not say for certain that it is torn, maybe just a natural seam where 2 pieces of paper were pieced together) at the seam, may be off just out of camera shot of the close up.
Yeah. I still get the feeling that the two closeups are not taken from the photo (or at the same time/day as the photo) I linked. Different background, tear or separation of the paper, even the inside looks different, shifted somehow.
Gotta think on this ...
momtective
06-23-2010, 10:43 AM
Strange. I thought the paper on the front of the box was torn in the photo taken that morning. I'll have to enlarge it and look again.
Yes, the paper was torn on the one Kyron is standing in front of. If Terri did hurt him could this be what set her off?
http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr260/momtective/30862_1489639882012_1264414625_1365.jpg
http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr260/momtective/30912_1486164435128_1264414625_1357.jpg
http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10003676-17.html?tag=page
hollye
06-23-2010, 10:52 AM
Yeah. I still get the feeling that the two closeups are not taken from the photo (or at the same time/day as the photo) I linked. Different background, tear or separation of the paper, even the inside looks different, shifted somehow.
Gotta think on this ...
No, I definitely agree with you that they were not cropped from other known photos, but taken independently, as the backgrounds are nothing like what would be seen if they were taken in front of the rest of the project. I wonder if they were taken before or after the other known photos, at home or at school.
I hadn't noticed the difference with the inside. I will have to go back and look. Interesting...
grandmaj
06-23-2010, 11:41 AM
If you are posting photos you must have an approved link for that photo please......
momtective
06-23-2010, 11:45 AM
If you are posting photos you must have an approved link for that photo please......
I'm looking through these pics for a link http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10003676-14.html?tag=page
I'll remove the pic until I find the link.
grandmaj
06-23-2010, 11:48 AM
You can leave it. Let's just get better at posting the right links.... :) That pic has been all over. But I'm seeing others pop in here too. xoxoxo
adh74
06-23-2010, 12:55 PM
I think the electricity project was probably talked up in class in the days prior to the exhibit. The teacher may have mentioned that the 6th graders had a really cool/exciting electricity project that they would be able to go see on exhibit day.
I also think the projects were set up the day before. It would be soooooo chaotic to have kids arriving at all different times to get their projects set up while visitors were coming and going at the same time. Also, the early-arrivers wouldn't have much to see if most of the other kids hadn't even arrived at school yet. So I think the fair was from 8-10am, and all the exhibits were up and ready to go before school opened that day.
As for the comment that he and his dad had stayed up all night working on Kyron's project....it doesn't specify WHICH night they stayed up all night. They may have been up all night on June 2nd so he could take his project to school on the 3rd so it could be set up before the exhibit on the 4th. I would think that the projects had a "due date" prior to the event itself so the teachers could see and approve the work to be displayed at the fair.
Ms Suzanne
06-23-2010, 01:42 PM
May I please ask if someone knows the answer to this.Kyrons little friend T.Was in Kyrons class room?Did T have a science project too?Did any of Ts family or friends come to see his science project?
sherbetjello
06-23-2010, 02:51 PM
Yes, the paper was torn on the one Kyron is standing in front of. If Terri did hurt him could this be what set her off?
http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr260/momtective/30862_1489639882012_1264414625_1365.jpg
http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr260/momtective/30912_1486164435128_1264414625_1357.jpg
http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10003676-17.html?tag=page
Now that I see a close-up of the project, any particular clues in that itself; like subconscious working through media?
Happens quite a bit in art.
I don't know how involved the family was in the project, but seeing the close-up made me over think for just a split second.
Ms Suzanne
06-23-2010, 03:09 PM
I'm very sorry.I was not aware we could not put the little boys name.I only put his first name.I thought we could.He was on the news and his name was already out there on video and news reports.I won't post his name again.
jessigirl
06-23-2010, 04:28 PM
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/photo/kyron-noglassesjpg-cc969e0971b99405.jpg
It was torn in the photo supposedly taken early Friday. There was one other, taken by a news photographer; I'll have to find it and see if it shows it torn too. Maybe someone taped it up for him. If not, I'm really curious who took these other shots and when (I notice the background is different in the two posted by jessi and the one in this link).
Hi, Calliope. I cannot find for sure where these 2 pics came from(am still working on trying to find their "originating" source)I went thru my laptop this a.m. to see exactly where I got them and realized these were actually emailed to me by a friend that's closely following the case as I am. She sent me 7 pics related to the Kyron case,and I downloaded them to my PC from her email.(there are 5other pics but did not post due to other ppl being in the pics w/Kyron)... I am waiting to hear back from her and hopefully she'll know their origination...
ETA: Have been pondering:waitasec:what u stated about there being a tear or rip in the other two "tree frog" pix&there not being a tear or rip in the two(up close)pix that I uploaded in my post(along with your observation of them having completely different backgrounds) and am wondering:waitasec: IF POSSIBLYthese 2 up close pix were possibly taken earlier that morning, or perhaps the night before?maybe even taken at home before they took it to school(and possibly that it got torn or ripped en route to the school or as they were setting it up? Maybe?)... Just thinking out loud about the possibilities bcause ITA with your observation...
M-pathetic
06-23-2010, 05:34 PM
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/photo/kyron-noglassesjpg-cc969e0971b99405.jpg
It was torn in the photo supposedly taken early Friday. There was one other, taken by a news photographer; I'll have to find it and see if it shows it torn too. Maybe someone taped it up for him. If not, I'm really curious who took these other shots and when (I notice the background is different in the two posted by jessi and the one in this link).
W O W... To Calliope or to whomever first noticed the rip in the project...betcha LE has someone monitoring the internet and they are saying W O W, as well!
PaulaF513
07-08-2010, 10:48 AM
Thank you! I have been thinking about this contradiction all day. T gives contradictory information. Either he left to go see the "electric exhibit" or he was in class and in a group for the tour. If there really was a cool electric exhibit, I would think Twould have seen it and not spoken of it in the abstract--"a cool electric" vs "the cool electric" if he had seen it as well.
Personally, I am thinking he never got to the classroom for the tour. I think he was gone before that. And I don't think there was an electric exhibit and I think it was a ruse to get him out of the school.
If it is true that the teacher thought Kyron was getting a drink, maybe she did think that for a minute, and then remembered that Terri had said something about an appointment and figured he went with her. She did not owe T any explanation.
Perhaps Kyron was already in a group that was going to see the electric exhibit when he passed by in the hallway and saw TP.
grayjay
07-08-2010, 11:00 AM
The damage on the front of the box looks to me like the typical glued down and came loose kind of stuff.
raeann
07-08-2010, 11:21 AM
W O W... To Calliope or to whomever first noticed the rip in the project...betcha LE has someone monitoring the internet and they are saying W O W, as well!
LOL....most likely, LE is not even remotely as obsessed with the project and the pictures and when they were taken as everyone here seems to be! They have confirmed from the first with the teachers who SAW both Kyron and SM there and know what time and when the project was set up. As far as the rip, the close up pictures do not show that corner of the project. It is located about 1 inch from the right hand corner, and the close up does not extend to that location. Either way, in a second grade classroom, there would be about two dozen glue sticks and rolls of tape within an arms reach to fix any rip of the paper. If TH was so concerned about it that it would "set her off", then she would have fixed it before taking the picture.
My own story to show an example of the "damage" to a project that happens after it is set up at school: My daughter once did an ocean habitat diorama and poster project. She did an amazing job with dolphins, whales, sea turtles, sharks, octopus etc. displayed in an underwater setting. The projects were set up after school or early before school, just as the Skyline displays were done. When I arrived to look over the other displays later in the day, I found two of her "creatures" were missing and were sitting in front of another child's somewhat barren hand printed poster which had no diorama at all. After school I asked her what had happened and if the teacher knew that the other child had "taken" these items off of her display that she had worked so hard to make just perfect. She told me that when she saw her friend that morning she was crying because her project was not as good as many of the other students, so she GAVE her the creatures so she would feel better! While I had been concerned with the effect the missing items might have had on her own grade, my daughter had cared more about the feelings of another child. Once again, child teaches mom a lesson!
dartemis
07-08-2010, 01:42 PM
a few more quotes from media articles about the expo:
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx
“Eight-year-old T P says the first person to notice Kyron Horman missing was a substitute teacher who was taking a head count as the second and third grade class was re-assembling after visiting other classrooms for a science fair at Skyline School last Friday.
"And she was like 'oh no where's Kyron there's only five' and Mrs. Porter was like it's okay calm down, calm down he's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I'm going to leave and she left, " says T P.
But, Portland Public School spokesman Matt Shelby said the account can't be true: "There were no substitutes at the school that day (the day Kyron disappeared)," he said.”
This is the same article that includes comments from T’s grandmother admitting that T had been asked not to speak with the media, but she elected to allow him to do so anyway. I hope she hasn’t seriously compromised this investigation.
The article also discusses that Portland School District Spokesperson, Matt Shelby believes that T is confused because substitutes were called in the week following Kyron’s disappearance to act as relief to teachers who might need an emotional break. I disagree with Mr. Shelby’s opinion. I suspect that, rather than a substitute teacher, this person who noticed Kyron missing when she did the headcount was a volunteer chaperone. If we read T mother’s statements in this article:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
“Carol Moulton said the kids were supposed to report to their classes and be divided into small groups of a few students each. Each group was supposed to tour the science fair with a chaperone. Afterward, when they returned to their classes for roll call, Kyron wasn't there, she said.”
To me it is clear that if the classes were to be divided into smaller groups then they must have had some adults there other than the teachers, because the ratio of chaperone to kids was higher than usual for these Science Fair tours.
Both of these news articles were published very early on in the search for Kyron, and I believe, before involved parties were asked not to talk to the media.
The quote in my previous post from Gina Zimmerman PTA president corroborates with Carol Moulton's description of the small groups taking the tour.
I think T Pused the word, "Substitute" when he should have said "Volunteer Parent Chaperone"
I think this information also answers the question about whether there was a substitute in Kyron's class for the day. There was not. Mrs. Porter taught the class as usual, but she had at least one volunteer helper during the time from 8:45 to 10:00 when the students were meant to be touring the Expo in small chaperoned groups.
That makes me think that Kyron went missing while he was in the care of some not publicly identified parent volunteer.
I agree with you and stated early on that I thought he disappeared on the volunteer's watch. I think he may have split off from his group to go see the electric project that someone, likely his abductor, lured him to.
miakelly
07-08-2010, 01:54 PM
I agree with you and stated early on that I thought he disappeared on the volunteer's watch. I think he may have split off from his group to go see the electric project that someone, likely his abductor, lured him to.
I understand that if a child were absent from school, the school would not place a call to the parent. However, what happened here is not a case of simply being absent. This is a child that went to school that day.
What I don't understand, is Kyron was NOT absent that day. He was there, then we was gone. The teacher didn't take action to find him - either she is insanely negligent, or, she had good reason to not worry because she had been led to believe his not coming back to class was justified by something someone told her. She clearly was not worried that Kyron never made it back to class........why??????
Do we know if this teacher is still employed with the school district?
.
"
[B][I believe the "substitute" was an adult chaperone for the group of 6 that Kyron was supposedly in] I understood this above statement to mean that upon returning to Mrs. Porter's classroom that the chaperone did a final head count and voiced concern when she realized their were only 5 students and that Kyron was the one unaccounted for.(this tells me that Kyron was in the classroom when the students were divided into small groups and then headed out to tour the science fair) Mrs. Porter seems to tell the chaperone that he[Kyron] is probably just in bathroom or at water fountain. The chaperone then leaves.... Therefore this statement is contradicting the statement that T gives saying Kyron never made it back to the classroom when they then divided into smaller groups for the tour, rather Kyron was last seen in the hall alone setting off to see the "electric" science project
Any opinions on the contradictions?
I think the teacher was like all teachers on busy days and just wanted to answer T's question, and then she remembered the appt.
I think it played out like this:
The parent chaperone was given a list of which kids they were touring with and called out his name along with the others, which is what our school always does - they give you a list and you call the kids or the teacher does and says "Okay you go with Mrs. ________"
When the chaperone got to Kyron's, she didn't know he had an 'appt' and so asked about him, Mrs. P was distracted, told T to settle down, he's getting a drink, or whatever, and then remembered the 'appt' which accounted for his abscense and informed the chaperone.
I really think this whole case is a very simple one in who did it and why - even the how seems pretty easy to me looking at the pics of the school and having gone by there. I have yet to talk to someone locally that thinks there is any foul play other than TH, but of course we all kinda hang out with people who are like-minded, ya know?
I do, however, believe there is much more to this story in a soap opera way of family dynamics, unfortunately. I just want that little boy found and home.
dartemis
07-08-2010, 02:29 PM
Here are 2 more pictures of Kyron's Tree Frog Project. (both are an up close view of the intricate detail that went into the project)
ETA: I had not seen these posted here, but if they are duplicates feel free to delete...
The second pic of the diorama is against a background of green-on-white flowered wallpaper...definitely not in the classroom and not a pic I remeber seeing on Terri's FB. I could be wrong but I think it's important to find out where these pics came from.
dartemis
07-08-2010, 02:38 PM
I understand that if a child were absent from school, the school would not place a call to the parent. However, what happened here is not a case of simply being absent. This is a child that went to school that day.
What I don't understand, is Kyron was NOT absent that day. He was there, then we was gone. The teacher didn't take action to find him - either she is insanely negligent, or, she had good reason to not worry because she had been led to believe his not coming back to class was justified by something someone told her. She clearly was not worried that Kyron never made it back to class........why??????
Do we know if this teacher is still employed with the school district?
You are absolutely correct. As a former teacher I can tell you that no, we didn't always call home when a child was absent but, if I had seen the child at the school earlier in the day and then he was gone, I would have absolutely called or had the office call home. That would have been a huge red flag to a teacher unless she was a distracted fool (hard to imagine anyone in that job being that irresponsible) or she was told by a parent that he would be leaving. School would have had a sign-out procedure to remove him but that would have been in the office, not the classroom and the teacher wouldn't have known if Terri actually signed him out. What I would have thought she might have wondered about is why Terri gave her papers to fill out for the doctor and not collected them before she left with Kyron. If she gave her the papers that day, teacher might have thought they were to be sent to doctor later. I understand Terri e-mailed teacher in afternoon about picking up project...I never did that as a parent. I think she did it to see if teacher had noticed or reported Kyron's absence in order to determine how much lead time she had to get him out of town or whatever she did with him.
MysteryAddict
07-08-2010, 03:45 PM
I understand that if a child were absent from school, the school would not place a call to the parent. However, what happened here is not a case of simply being absent. This is a child that went to school that day.
What I don't understand, is Kyron was NOT absent that day. He was there, then we was gone. The teacher didn't take action to find him - either she is insanely negligent, or, she had good reason to not worry because she had been led to believe his not coming back to class was justified by something someone told her. She clearly was not worried that Kyron never made it back to class........why??????
Do we know if this teacher is still employed with the school district?
This teacher being so negligent over Kyron's disappearance that day is a
fact that has bothered me from the beginning!
Wasn't his backpack still hanging in the back of the room?? I thought so.
If a kid is going to be out the rest of the day, I think he would take his stuff
with him. Right?
This teacher's action (non action) sounds suspicious to me. I hope she was
thoroughly questioned by Le.
It's one of the dots that just doesn't connect.
gardeness
07-09-2010, 03:03 AM
I just watched T.'s interview again, and I agree with the people who speculate that the "substitute" teacher could have been a volunteer, or a teacher's aide. On a busy day like that, it's not unheard of for all the extra personnel in a school (and any volunteers~room mothers or other moms) to help out. I am just wondering why the school spokesman, Matt Shelby, didn't acknowledge that there could have been another adult in the room instead of, "Shelby thinks Pumala may be confused because all week after the disappearance a subsitute teacher has been at the school to help with the stress of the Horman case."
Anyways...it still bothers me that this is not a point of interest in the case any more.
MagnoliaMom
07-09-2010, 03:48 AM
I would like someone to give a simple "yes" or "no" to whether a substitute teacher was there viewing the science projects whether she/he was there in the role of a substitute teacher for that particular day of the science fair or not. Could there have been one at the school that day? I could see one coming because the children asked them on a prior day to please come see their projects or just to be supportive. Just because one wasn't being paid in that role for the day doesn't mean one wasn't there. And the students would call them a substitute because that is what they have known them as.
I am in full agreement that since Kyron had been seen earlier at the school he should never have been marked absent. I don't buy that the teacher was confused by squat hollered across a crowded, noisy room especially with the comment that maybe he had gone to get water or such. The marking absent was to cover up that she didn't check up on him. Incompetence at her duties is what it seems to me. That school is not that big. She could have walked to the office to see if he was signed out. Let's get real here; she could have text the office.
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 07:08 AM
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_hormans_father_recalls_w.html
First question on the video at the bottom of this page. Kaine is asked where baby K was that morning.
This really shocks me. I just can't believe that she would do something to her stepson with her baby there. This is the first thing I have heard that makes me doubt she did this but I really feel strongly that she did. If she harmed him with the baby there then that is just evil and sick. There are no words.
azmama
07-09-2010, 07:21 AM
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_hormans_father_recalls_w.html
First question on the video at the bottom of this page. Kaine is asked where baby K was that morning.
This really shocks me. I just can't believe that she would do something to her stepson with her baby there. This is the first thing I have heard that makes me doubt she did this but I really feel strongly that she did. If she harmed him with the baby there then that is just evil and sick. There are no words.
Wow! That blows me away! She is 19 months old? This story just gets worse and worse! Yet another reason why she should not get any "parenting time" with Baby K.
I do seriously believe TH did this, or is involved, but look at the other side (WHAT IF) she is not! It is so hard to fathom that she did something with the baby along with them both. :(
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 07:23 AM
It does make me lean towards to her handing him off. I just can't even let myself go there if she hurt that little boy with his sister there :(
21merc7
07-09-2010, 07:25 AM
Huh? Wasn't it reported the baby was with a sitter?
LadyL
07-09-2010, 07:25 AM
what if someone else did her dirty work for her? just speculating ...
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 07:27 AM
Huh? Wasn't it reported the baby was with a sitter?
It was assumed. I mean who takes a baby when you are getting rid of your stepson? Maybe she thought it would make her look more innocent.
If you watch the video in the link at the top of the page the first thing they ask is were was the baby and Kaine confirms that she was with TH at the science fair.
LadyL
07-09-2010, 07:27 AM
Huh? Wasn't it reported the baby was with a sitter?
I don't think so. I think there were rumours and even a psychic on a news discussion site with different claims. I don't remember it ever being verified for us.
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 07:30 AM
what if someone else did her dirty work for her? just speculating ...
I guess it could go either way. I mean if there was a helper wouldn't they have weeded them out by now? They found her landscaper from 7 months ago and LE contacted another landscaper that tried to call TH about a bid but she never contacted him back. They are going through everyone she ever spoke with it seems. Maybe a girlfriend that she talks to regularly? Maybe told her that she needed to protect Kyron by getting him away? I'm just grasping here.
I also think she could have taken him from the science fair, drove him someplace and hurt him and hid him, baby or no baby. If she is the kind of person that could do that I don't supposed she would worry about a little toddler who can't talk yet.
WholeLottaRosie
07-09-2010, 07:30 AM
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_hormans_father_recalls_w.html
First question on the video at the bottom of this page. Kaine is asked where baby K was that morning.
This really shocks me. I just can't believe that she would do something to her stepson with her baby there. This is the first thing I have heard that makes me doubt she did this but I really feel strongly that she did. If she harmed him with the baby there then that is just evil and sick. There are no words.
This is shocking. I think many of us have wondered where the little girl was that morning. For me this is another thing in Terri's favor of her not having done anything to Kyron.
This video is very difficult to watch. What on earth is going on?
mchris1024
07-09-2010, 07:31 AM
It does make me lean towards to her handing him off. I just can't even let myself go there if she hurt that little boy with his sister there :(
My gut has told me that she handed him off to someone, I can't imagine her hurting him in front of his sister.
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 07:34 AM
This is shocking. I think many of us have wondered where the little girl was that morning. For me this is another thing in Terri's favor of her not having done anything to Kyron.
This video is very difficult to watch. What on earth is going on?
It is hard to believe she would take her baby with her to give Kyron away or hurt him but it doesn't rule her out, either. She just may be that cold blooded. Or the worse victim in the world with the bad luck of being the last person to see him, who's stories don't add up and can't pass a LDT.
azmama
07-09-2010, 07:35 AM
I would like to think that this means she didn't hurt him, that she handed him off to be held somewhere, but she did try to hire someone to kill KH, so is seems quite possible that she could do the same for Little Kyron.
It just never occured to me that Baby K could have been there! That is a shocking revelation!
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 07:36 AM
My gut has told me that she handed him off to someone, I can't imagine her hurting him in front of his sister.
I hope you are right. I hope they are looking at all her friends. She may have people close to her that it wouldn't be unusual for her to be talking to them regularly.
PaulaF513
07-09-2010, 07:45 AM
So odd that noone mentioned the baby being with her that day...another puzzling aspect of this maddening case. It's so hard to imagine she would harm one child in the presence of another. It's sickening. K is 19 months old isn't she? I wonder how articulate she is and if she has been creatively interviewed. If she witnessed something horrific, she may well react in some way when asked about it, Granted LE would not be able to use "testimony" from a baby, however she may be able to point them is the right direction to find Kyron.
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 07:47 AM
So odd that noone mentioned the baby being with her that day...another puzzling aspect of this maddening case. It's so hard to imagine she would harm one child in the presence of another. It's sickening. K is 19 months old isn't she? I wonder how articulate she is and if she has been creatively interviewed. If she witnessed something horrific, she may well react in some way when asked about it, Granted LE would not be able to use "testimony" from a baby, however she may be able to point them is the right direction to find Kyron.
Sadly I don't think you could get any useful information from a child that young. My kids didn't start getting really verbal until 2 and even that it was the bare minimum as far as communication.
RoughlyCollie
07-09-2010, 07:50 AM
In the top video with that article, DY and KH say they hope TH hired someone to kidnap Kyron and that person is taking care of him.
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 07:53 AM
In the top video with that article, DY and KH say they hope TH hired someone to kidnap Kyron and that person is taking care of him.
I wonder if there is any money missing from the family account?
Emeralgem
07-09-2010, 07:54 AM
In the top video with that article, DY and KH say they hope TH hired someone to kidnap Kyron and that person is taking care of him.
Yes, that's their hope, but I'm not convinced they believe that to be the case...JMO
Edit... Also, I'm not shocked baby K was with her that morning...JMO
CocoChanel
07-09-2010, 07:56 AM
So odd that noone mentioned the baby being with her that day...another puzzling aspect of this maddening case. It's so hard to imagine she would harm one child in the presence of another. It's sickening. K is 19 months old isn't she? I wonder how articulate she is and if she has been creatively interviewed. If she witnessed something horrific, she may well react in some way when asked about it, Granted LE would not be able to use "testimony" from a baby, however she may be able to point them is the right direction to find Kyron.
BBM
Sadly, this happens every day in abuse cases. Children are often witness to horrific things done to their siblings or parent. I know it is hard to imagine for us, but really, it is no different than hundreds of other stories we read about when an adult commits atrocities in the presence of family members. Poor poor Kyron. Poor poor baby K. TG for the restraining order to keep her safe from more potential harm from her mother.
scotslass
07-09-2010, 08:01 AM
If TH is responsible in light of having baby k with her perhaps she just dropped Kyron off on SI. hence the reports from DY about him possibly being afraid not having his glasses and being allergic to bees :( and the statements that they didn't think he would be gone this long and the spell of silence from the parents when this story first broke. TH perhaps only meant for kyron to be lost and now with Kyron not reappearing she realized her plan has all went wrong. Dunno this whole situation is awful and we seem to be no closer to finding little Kyron.
Kyron where are you little fella? I sure hope you find your way home safely. It has been way too long now and a lot of people are waiting , looking for you and can't wait to give you that great big hug and make those fears go away. Praying your in your parents arms soon..
cluciano63
07-09-2010, 08:01 AM
I've always been one to think if something happened between Kyron and Terri, it was not premeditated, so having the baby there does not change it for me. Except was it ever determined if this truck of theirs had three seats across in the front? Or a back seat? Wondering how car seat, etc. all works in a truck...I don't have kids or a truck. I'm thinking if it was set up for three to ride easily/legally, she may have always used the truck during the week.
hollye
07-09-2010, 08:08 AM
So odd that noone mentioned the baby being with her that day...another puzzling aspect of this maddening case. It's so hard to imagine she would harm one child in the presence of another. It's sickening. K is 19 months old isn't she? I wonder how articulate she is and if she has been creatively interviewed. If she witnessed something horrific, she may well react in some way when asked about it, Granted LE would not be able to use "testimony" from a baby, however she may be able to point them is the right direction to find Kyron.
My son is exactly to the day the same age as Baby K and he is verbal, but not to the extent that he would be able to tell us anything, if he were to witness anything horrific or identify that it was horrific. He can say one word phrases and is learning new words every day, but nothing to the extent that would be helpful to investigators.
Skully
07-09-2010, 08:11 AM
I still feel, and even more so now that it is confirmed she had Baby K with her, that Terri did not hurt Kyron. I have felt this way from the beginning. She may have been involved with someone that took advantage of the situation that day, or someone took the opportunity to get him to help with carrying something in from a car and took him then. The odds that no one saw her walk him out and the baby, no blood or DNA evidence he was hurt, none of this adds up. I think they need to figure out who she was seeing and where. She lied about going to SI that day, so what was there that her and the baby went to see or who? While she is at SI, I think someone tricked Kyron to go to a car, and took him. JMO This does not let her off the hook.
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 08:13 AM
I've always been one to think if something happened between Kyron and Terri, it was not premeditated, so having the baby there does not change it for me. Except was it ever determined if this truck of theirs had three seats across in the front? Or a back seat? Wondering how car seat, etc. all works in a truck...I don't have kids or a truck. I'm thinking if it was set up for three to ride easily/legally, she may have always used the truck during the week.
It was a 4 door truck and had a back seat.
Emeralgem
07-09-2010, 08:14 AM
I've always been one to think if something happened between Kyron and Terri, it was not premeditated, so having the baby there does not change it for me. Except was it ever determined if this truck of theirs had three seats across in the front? Or a back seat? Wondering how car seat, etc. all works in a truck...I don't have kids or a truck. I'm thinking if it was set up for three to ride easily/legally, she may have always used the truck during the week.
IIRC.. Kaine stated he usually walked Kyron to the bus stop every morning...That indicates to me for the most part she didn't take him to school...JMO
scotslass
07-09-2010, 08:25 AM
IIRC.. Kaine stated he usually walked Kyron to the bus stop every morning...That indicates to me for the most part she didn't take him to school...JMO
This is my thinking too not that KH walked him to the end of the driveway everyday but Kyron was definitely a bussed student. Therefore Th would not have dropped him at school most days or picked him up.
It has been bothering me that TH was concerned enough to e-mail the school about picking up the science project, for someone who was known to frequent the school and it being a friday( not to mention he was leaving to spend time with his mom & TY) Wouldn't you just pick him up that day and collect the project at that time and/or inquire about picking it up then?
I first thought that perhaps it was baby K's nap time around dismissal so picking him up would not have been ideal, especially if they were all going to drop off Kyron I know what cranky toddler can be like on a road trip - not fun!
Now KH states he and baby k walked to the bus stop so nap time is now questionable for me although she may have woken early etc.
Too many speculative questions and not enough answers going on in my head these days.
Just wish more facts were available and Kyron was home safe.
Blondie in Spokane
07-09-2010, 08:26 AM
DairyGirl...Thanks for drawing my attention to that video.....I totally missed that the first time I read that article. If TH did this, I would bet that you are correct and she did assume that having baby K with her that day would (in her mind) make her look more innocent. Wow...how cold can you get? I held out hope for the longest time that TH did not do this but I've fallen off the fence this past week. I really think LE needs to lock that "b" up for her own safety at this point. With all of this negative info coming out lately I would think her safety is certainly at risk. Her support system has fallen apart and I cannot even imagine living the life of an exile. She has to be fearful of going anywhere and rightfully so.
I agree with WholeLottaRosie....that video was very hard to watch.
I feel like I'm watching a true crime novel being written in real time. How many more shoes can drop?
DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 08:30 AM
DairyGirl...Thanks for drawing my attention to that video.....I totally missed that the first time I read that article. If TH did this, I would bet that you are correct and she did assume that having baby K with her that day would (in her mind) make her look more innocent. Wow...how cold can you get? I held out hope for the longest time that TH did not do this but I've fallen off the fence this past week. I really think LE needs to lock that "b" up for her own safety at this point. With all of this negative info coming out lately I would think her safety is certainly at risk. Her support system has fallen apart and I cannot even imagine living the life of an exile. She has to be fearful of going anywhere and rightfully so.
I agree with WholeLottaRosie....that video was very hard to watch.
I feel like I'm watching a true crime novel being written in real time. How many more shoes can drop?
I gotta wonder how her friends feel hearing Kyron's father and mother say she is a liar who failed 2 LDTs. How about her parents? Is she that good that they just believe her excuses and rationalzations? For her friends they have to know Kaine too. Are they picking sides? I notice no more friends have come to the defense of her. Maybe her lawyer told her to shut them up.
Aedrys
07-09-2010, 08:32 AM
I still think she could have hurt Kyron. She could have left the baby in the truck asleep. Many babies fall asleep on car rides. Then she could have gone and done what she did, come back, and the baby is still asleep and doesn't know anything bad has happened. I imagine she parked in the shade and had her windows down just so nothing would happen to her if that's the case. Or she was really evil and had the baby girl with her.
I'm just saying just because the baby was with her doesn't mean she didn't do anything to Kyron. The fact that the baby is still alive tells me the only person she wanted to hurt was Kyron, and most likely just didn't do the deed right in front of Baby K.
evelyn24
07-09-2010, 08:33 AM
Are we sure Kaine meant that baby K was at the school with Terri and not just where baby K was when he left in the morning? When he left baby K was with Terri but he doesn't know much of what happened afterward until he got home a little after 2PM.
I say whether she had the baby at the school or not is still unknown.
It wouldn't impede her in anyway if she did have Baby K because it's not like she'd have to do anything other than tell Kyron to walk to her truck to take him that day.
Blondie in Spokane
07-09-2010, 08:41 AM
I still think she could have hurt Kyron. She could have left the baby in the truck asleep. Many babies fall asleep on car rides. Then she could have gone and done what she did, come back, and the baby is still asleep and doesn't know anything bad has happened. I imagine she parked in the shade and had her windows down just so nothing would happen to her if that's the case. Or she was really evil and had the baby girl with her.
I'm just saying just because the baby was with her doesn't mean she didn't do anything to Kyron. The fact that the baby is still alive tells me the only person she wanted to hurt was Kyron, and most likely just didn't do the deed right in front of Baby K.
I agree...it really would be rather easy to accomplish when you think about it. Pull over on a side road on S.I. "Hey Kyron, let's go look at _____" TH and Kyron step outside of the truck out of view while she pretends to show him something, steps behind him and.....
I truly hope this is not what happened but it could easily have been done. And I now believe that TH had some serious anger/resentment/hostility towards KH and Kyron paid the price.
WholeLottaRosie
07-09-2010, 08:43 AM
Are we sure Kaine meant that baby K was at the school with Terri and not just where baby K was when he left in the morning? When he left baby K was with Terri but he doesn't know much of what happened afterward until he got home a little after 2PM.
I say whether she had the baby at the school or not is still unknown.
It wouldn't impede her in anyway if she did have Baby K because it's not like she'd have to do anything other than tell Kyron to walk to her truck to take him that day.
In the video, linked above, he said she was with Terri that morning. The interviewer clarified by saying "at the science fair?" to which he replied "yes".
evelyn24
07-09-2010, 08:48 AM
Ah ok, I only heard the "that morning" question, but at any rate it doesn't mean much considering TH wouldn't have to do anything crazy to get Kyron to come with her other than TELL him to come and he'd walk with her to the truck...no problem. It's not like she had to nab him and carry him off with him kicking and screaming. AND we still don't know whether she dropped the baby off immediately after leaving the school for an hour or two while she did whatever with Kyron.
scotslass
07-09-2010, 08:57 AM
Did TH drive Kyron to school that morning? Or did he take the bus?
I'm having a hard time establishing that this morning as i have info saying they dropped off his science project and were at school early. Then another saying projects were brought in the day before.. but no real facts that are verified can someone help me out.
Wondering if she met him at school that morning or drove him in. Also while i'm trying to firm up some things do we know how many kids get on/off at that stop. Seeing it is at the bottom of the driveway I'm assuming it is Just Kyron (as my eldest had the same set up when we lived more rural).
I can only imagine what the bus driver was thinking when he/she saw the family waiting in the afternoon but knowing Kyron wasn't on the bus :( I can only surmise that is the only reason the bus stopped.) But more on task can someone confirm that it was the bus driver who called this into the school at that time. (missing some of my notes :( )
Thanks
adh74
07-09-2010, 09:07 AM
So odd that noone mentioned the baby being with her that day...another puzzling aspect of this maddening case. It's so hard to imagine she would harm one child in the presence of another. It's sickening. K is 19 months old isn't she? I wonder how articulate she is and if she has been creatively interviewed. If she witnessed something horrific, she may well react in some way when asked about it, Granted LE would not be able to use "testimony" from a baby, however she may be able to point them is the right direction to find Kyron.
It's amazing what they can learn from even toddlers and babies! A good child psychologist might be able to figure out if she has recently been emotionally traumatized somehow. Babies aren't like grown ups...they don't know how to hide their thoughts/feelings. If she is shown a picture of Terri, does she tense up, get fussy, or cling to others? Have her developmental milestones slowed down or even gone backwards (as the brain processes trauma)? Is she not asking for her mommy (doesn't want to see her, scared of her, etc.)? No, it's not exactly something you can ask her in court "did you see your mommy hurt your big brother?". But professional testimony does carry an appropriate amount of weight in court.
My little brother, who had been fairly verbal at age 2, suddenly just stopped talking. He became violent in his play mannerisms, which was not typical for him. And his appetite went out the window at a time when toddlers are usually having a growth spurt and eating like crazy. We later found out that that was around the time that our uncle had started molesting him.
BeanE
07-09-2010, 09:08 AM
Direct link to video for those just joining the thread. I also put it in today's news thread if anybody needs to grab it later.
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/07/kyron_hormans_parents_share_de.html
hollye
07-09-2010, 09:17 AM
It's amazing what they can learn from even toddlers and babies! A good child psychologist might be able to figure out if she has recently been emotionally traumatized somehow. Babies aren't like grown ups...they don't know how to hide their thoughts/feelings. If she is shown a picture of Terri, does she tense up, get fussy, or cling to others? Have her developmental milestones slowed down or even gone backwards (as the brain processes trauma)? Is she not asking for her mommy (doesn't want to see her, scared of her, etc.)? No, it's not exactly something you can ask her in court "did you see your mommy hurt your big brother?". But professional testimony does carry an appropriate amount of weight in court.
My little brother, who had been fairly verbal at age 2, suddenly just stopped talking. He became violent in his play mannerisms, which was not typical for him. And his appetite went out the window at a time when toddlers are usually having a growth spurt and eating like crazy. We later found out that that was around the time that our uncle had started molesting him.
Agreed, but if the something that occurred did not appear to be violent in nature, it is quite possible that Baby K, if she did see something, did not recognize it as being traumatizing. If she was physically there, when whatever happened occurred, maybe she could have been sleeping, maybe she was left in her carseat, facing away from the exchange, Kyron could have been given something to make him sleep and was carried to whereever he was taken, the exchange could have been not overly dramatic, so as that she would not have recognized it as being traumatic for her. Any of these things and more could have occurred. Unless the trauma occurred directly to her, the likelihood that she would recognize it as being traumatic, IMO, would be quite a bit lower for a child her age. This is all purely speculation on my part.
trigger
07-09-2010, 09:32 AM
So odd that noone mentioned the baby being with her that day...another puzzling aspect of this maddening case. It's so hard to imagine she would harm one child in the presence of another. It's sickening. K is 19 months old isn't she? I wonder how articulate she is and if she has been creatively interviewed. If she witnessed something horrific, she may well react in some way when asked about it, Granted LE would not be able to use "testimony" from a baby, however she may be able to point them is the right direction to find Kyron.
Wow shocking the baby was there. Hopefully the baby was asleep..
Wrinkles
07-09-2010, 09:36 AM
Perhaps the baby was with her at the school, but left with someone else immediately after the fact (child care at the gym or a babysitters)?
BeanE
07-09-2010, 09:40 AM
I'm working on transcribing the video. I'm just paraphrasing the reporter, but I'm transcribing Kaine and Desiree word for word. This will take a little while, so I'm updating the transcription in the post in the Today's News thread as I go along and double check my transcription.
I just posted the first part in Today's News.
RubyRed
07-09-2010, 09:46 AM
In all the news articles we never once heard anyone say , yes I saw TH and baby K. It was not asked on the list of questions that LE put out for all those at the school to answer.
A red haired woman with a red haired baby would be something that would stand out, and be memorable.
I am thinking the baby was not in the school. Why else has it been kept so quiet and not mentioned?
Perhaps this is why KH and DY exchanged glances and had the long pause , when asked if someone else could be involved along with TH.
I am thinking TH may have had K with her but not in the school, hence the thought of someone else being involved.
trigger
07-09-2010, 09:48 AM
I still think she could have hurt Kyron. She could have left the baby in the truck asleep. Many babies fall asleep on car rides. Then she could have gone and done what she did, come back, and the baby is still asleep and doesn't know anything bad has happened. I imagine she parked in the shade and had her windows down just so nothing would happen to her if that's the case. Or she was really evil and had the baby girl with her.
I'm just saying just because the baby was with her doesn't mean she didn't do anything to Kyron. The fact that the baby is still alive tells me the only person she wanted to hurt was Kyron, and most likely just didn't do the deed right in front of Baby K.
ITA.The baby was asleep, or hoping she was. I was thinking about the pings which led LE to SI. To bad it had to rain heavy the next day,maybe LE could have gotten tire tracks. Oh my heart just breaks with the maybes, the what if's. Im sure KY is thinking the same, if I only would have gone to the science fair.
Where are you sweetie?
adh74
07-09-2010, 09:48 AM
Agreed, but if the something that occurred did not appear to be violent in nature, it is quite possible that Baby K, if she did see something, did not recognize it as being traumatizing. If she was physically there, when whatever happened occurred, maybe she could have been sleeping, maybe she was left in her carseat, facing away from the exchange, Kyron could have been given something to make him sleep and was carried to whereever he was taken, the exchange could have been not overly dramatic, so as that she would not have recognized it as being traumatic for her. Any of these things and more could have occurred. Unless the trauma occurred directly to her, the likelihood that she would recognize it as being traumatic, IMO, would be quite a bit lower for a child her age. This is all purely speculation on my part.
I agree with you on all points. The theory that I've held for a week or so now is that TH sold Kyron to pay for the hitman on KH and the "transaction" took place on Sauvie Island. I can see just as many ways that this transaction may have been non-violent, as is could have been very violent. But in the hope of not leaving any forensic evidence of his presence that day, I would lean towards a non-violent transaction. Perhaps he was drugged, as you suggested.
GrainneDhu
07-09-2010, 09:52 AM
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_hormans_father_recalls_w.html
First question on the video at the bottom of this page. Kaine is asked where baby K was that morning.
This really shocks me. I just can't believe that she would do something to her stepson with her baby there. This is the first thing I have heard that makes me doubt she did this but I really feel strongly that she did. If she harmed him with the baby there then that is just evil and sick. There are no words.
There have been rumours for days that TMH had baby K with her at the science fair. Guess for once the rumours were true.
IF TMH is guilty, then I think having baby K there indicates it was an unplanned, spontaneous event. Like maybe a sudden mood swing into irrational anger about something she thought Kyron did and she shook him too hard or his head hit something as she was shaking him.
I've felt all along that IF it were TMH, then it was an unplanned event, simply because no one can plan on having the sort of luck she had that morning. IF she did it, of course.
The above is strictly my own speculation.
adh74
07-09-2010, 09:54 AM
In all the news articles we never once heard anyone say , yes I saw TH and baby K. It was not asked on the list of questions that LE put out for all those at the school to answer.
A red haired woman with a red haired baby would be something that would stand out, and be memorable.
I am thinking the baby was not in the school. Why else has it been kept so quiet and not mentioned?
Perhaps this is why KH and DY exchanged glances and had the long pause , when asked if someone else could be involved along with TH.
I am thinking TH may have had K with her but not in the school, hence the thought of someone else being involved.
BBM. Because it was a detail that only those that legitimately saw TH that day would know. It wasn't public knowledge that she had the baby with her. So, when weeding through all those flyer responses, if someone said they saw TH, but didn't mention didn't mention anything about a baby being with her, then they may be lying. If they said "Yeah, I saw her, and she had a baby in a pink stroller with her.", then that gives their testimony more credibility.
Calliope
07-09-2010, 09:55 AM
I would like someone to give a simple "yes" or "no" to whether a substitute teacher was there viewing the science projects whether she/he was there in the role of a substitute teacher for that particular day of the science fair or not. Could there have been one at the school that day? I could see one coming because the children asked them on a prior day to please come see their projects or just to be supportive. Just because one wasn't being paid in that role for the day doesn't mean one wasn't there. And the students would call them a substitute because that is what they have known them as.
I am in full agreement that since Kyron had been seen earlier at the school he should never have been marked absent. I don't buy that the teacher was confused by squat hollered across a crowded, noisy room especially with the comment that maybe he had gone to get water or such. The marking absent was to cover up that she didn't check up on him. Incompetence at her duties is what it seems to me. That school is not that big. She could have walked to the office to see if he was signed out. Let's get real here; she could have text the office.
Since the school didn't have a policy of calling when kids were absent, then if the teacher took roll and Kyron was absent, then I wouldn't expect her to do anything more.
HOWEVER, if what this boy says happened and the teacher and this group leader noticed Kyron was gone after he'd been present, THEN I have a huge problem with her not investigating further.
ella971
07-09-2010, 10:02 AM
We will find out soon. LE is on this and i'm sure have more information that we do. Lets have some faith. I do not believe K is alive. I pray to God I'm wrong and I wont give up hope.I have faith that LE will carry on and bring justice. Let us all think positive and pray.
GrainneDhu
07-09-2010, 10:03 AM
So odd that noone mentioned the baby being with her that day...another puzzling aspect of this maddening case.
SBM
I'm thinking that it is one of the facts that LE deliberately held back so as to assess the accuracy of witness reports.
For instance, if a witness came forward to say "I saw TMH and Kyron at the science fair around 8:30 am" LE could then ask "was anyone else with them?" If the witness said "no, they were walking down the hall alone" then LE would know that the witness's testimony was less credible.
I'm not saying that the witness would have to be lying. The accuracy of memory varies widely from person to person and every human being tends to fill in with information around what they think they remember.
I saw a video experiment done once where they set up a situation with a couple black men walking down a hall past the subjects. Both men were very dark complected and one of them had a single contact lens in that was light blue; the other eye was a normal dark brown. The blue eye was very visible and very startling. One man was carrying an object and the other had his hands free.
About half the time, the witnesses were incorrect in matching which man was carrying the object. Even though the one man had a highly unusual characteristic. Almost every subject recalled that one of the men had a light blue eye but only about half of them could correctly state whether he was the one carrying the object.
loves2bmom
07-09-2010, 10:08 AM
This is a great video. I also saw more on KPTV last night of a one on one interview. I just got on this morning but has everyone found each of those videos from all the news outlets. I'm so glad they are opening up now and hope their scenario that someone is holding Kyron is right.
I'm also wondering if the baby was dropped off somewhere on the way to the science fair. I agree that I have not heard one report that says anyone saw her that morning.
watchful_eye
07-09-2010, 10:08 AM
Frankly, nothing surprises me these days. Mothers or fathers murdering their kids, beating them to death, selling their kids, stranger abductions, torture/captivity...you name it. Some people, many people, are horrible, horrible, evil monsters.
Whatever Terri did, if she did, would not shock me in that SHE did it, it would only shock me in that "I cannot believe another baby was murdered."
Sometimes, when I hear cases on the news, and then people are caught, and nothing is done to them, or they get little prison/escape the death penalty, I feel like their is no hope for humanity!
Bah! I hate to be a cynic, but I am burnt out.
heartfortruth
07-09-2010, 10:09 AM
Did TH drive Kyron to school that morning? Or did he take the bus?
I'm having a hard time establishing that this morning as i have info saying they dropped off his science project and were at school early. Then another saying projects were brought in the day before.. but no real facts that are verified can someone help me out.
Wondering if she met him at school that morning or drove him in. Also while i'm trying to firm up some things do we know how many kids get on/off at that stop. Seeing it is at the bottom of the driveway I'm assuming it is Just Kyron (as my eldest had the same set up when we lived more rural).
I can only imagine what the bus driver was thinking when he/she saw the family waiting in the afternoon but knowing Kyron wasn't on the bus :( I can only surmise that is the only reason the bus stopped.) But more on task can someone confirm that it was the bus driver who called this into the school at that time. (missing some of my notes :( )
Thanks
Yes, still so many questions......School / science fair, other kids, teacher, bus.... among them.......the bus driver would know if Kyron rode the bus that morning.....and how regularly he rode it.....to and from ......and did he stop there because he saw the family or were other children getting off at that place, too? Who was usually at the bus stop , both trips? , etc
I have still not seen a good explanation of why more people did NOT say "WHERE'S KYRON?" all day long, and follow up on that !
Can anyone help me out on that? TIA
dimples37398
07-09-2010, 10:17 AM
I have thought from the beginning that TMH had something to do with Kyron being missing, I do still believe this. I have started thinking that whatever did happen to Kyron, was a spur of the moment thing. After whatever happened, she panicked and started trying to cover her a** and made the story up as it went along that day. Idk maybe she purposely let something as in a bee sting happen, and then didn't seek help. Maybe a bee sting or something like this accidentally happened, and then she came up with the horrid thought of not getting help.
I just know how my children are, and it is hard when the younger one wants to get into the older ones stuff, sometimes they mess things up, sometimes they break things. If it is hard for me to deal with these moments, I can only imagine it would be harder for someone with TMH's potential problems, to deal with these situations. Depending on what was going on in TMH's mind, baby K did seem atleast on the surface to be the apple of her eye...perhaps she was willing to go to any length to protect baby k from her brothers( in TMH's mind atleast).
ETA..
It doesn't surprise me at all though that she had Baby K with her that day.
ClueMeIn
07-09-2010, 10:18 AM
This is shocking. I think many of us have wondered where the little girl was that morning. For me this is another thing in Terri's favor of her not having done anything to Kyron.
This video is very difficult to watch. What on earth is going on?
For all we know she got out of the car with Kyron, set him up on the bridge, and pushed him into a river. Baby still in the car. Would have taken 2 minutes. Or the baby could have been right there too. This is no way absolves Terri of anything.
GrainneDhu
07-09-2010, 10:29 AM
I still think she could have hurt Kyron. She could have left the baby in the truck asleep. Many babies fall asleep on car rides. Then she could have gone and done what she did, come back, and the baby is still asleep and doesn't know anything bad has happened. I imagine she parked in the shade and had her windows down just so nothing would happen to her if that's the case.
SBM
As I recall, the weather that day was threatening rain and it was cool enough that children were wearing jackets to school. Probably not much concern about overheating, IF this is what happened.
Also, I think most people and probably most parents know that one of the side effects of children's Benedryl is sleepiness. It's an approved medication for children over one year of age and OTC, no prescription needed.
The above is just my speculation.
tlcya
07-09-2010, 10:30 AM
Kyron's parents did not comment on the specifics of the investigation, but noticeably paused when asked if they thought someone else might be involved.
"We would like to speculate, but we really can't," Young said.
snipped from http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_hormans_father_recalls_w.html
If Terri is directly involved I find this reaction to questions about possible accomplice(s) very telling. I think LE suspects Terri and feel there is an accomplice who may or may not still hold Kyron's life in his/her hands. I think that is the reason for all the close to the vest/no one else is in danger/nothin to see here folks atitude presented by LE from day one.
I pray this little boy is found. There is so much info (bad good and indiferent) out there and who knows what is rumor, what is fact, but that snipped portion above at least leads me to believe mom and dad may truly believe Kyron is alive out there somewhere and being held by an accomplice.
ETA The fact that there is confirmation from someone/anyone of baby K's whereabouts that morning is a relief. At least now we can put that one to bed. But if Terri was directly involved in harming/disappearing Kyron, the thought that that sweet little baby may have been present just makes my heart drop into the bottom of my stomach.
Calliope
07-09-2010, 10:37 AM
The father of missing second-grader Kyron Horman said Thursday that his marriage to the boy's stepmom began to grow rocky after she gave birth to their little girl 19 months ago.
"I thought the marriage was doing pretty well," Kaine Horman said during a one-on-one interview with The Oregonian, "until we had our daughter, K."
But he doesn't elaborate. Could it be that Terri was suffering from PPD? If so, was she being treated? IIRC, around the time of Kyron's birth is when his marriage to Desiree hit the rocks, too.
Horman, standing on a wooded road in Adidas running shoes, was stoic when considering his troubles.
"It's gotta happen to somebody," he said.
WTH ?? That's a very strange comment, to say the least.
Kaine Horman added that he was upset about Terri occupying the family home, keeping him and his daughter out of it.
Then he (or rather his attorney) should have requested her ouster. That's all it would have taken to force her out of the home --- it would have been mandatory.
http://www.oregon.gov/OJD/docs/OSCA/cpsd/courtimprovement/familylaw/FAPA_Benchguide_4-24-06.pdf
A. Mandatory (Not Discretionary) Relief
The court must order the following relief if:
• A petitioner with an eligible relationship requests it;
and
• The court finds, at the hearing, that
respondent abused petitioner within the
preceding 180 days; and
• petitioner is in imminent danger of further
abuse by respondent and that respondent
represents a credible threat to the physical
safety of petitioner or petitioner’s child
3. Ouster
Require respondent to move from petitioner's residence
if:
a. the residence is solely in petitioner's name;
b. the parties jointly own or rent the residence; or
c. the parties are married to each other.
As far as baby being present, I wonder if he knows this from LE or it's just what he believes to be the case. If he heard that from LE, perhaps he shouldn't have said anything.
RubyRed
07-09-2010, 10:48 AM
This is shocking. I think many of us have wondered where the little girl was that morning. For me this is another thing in Terri's favor of her not having done anything to Kyron.
This video is very difficult to watch. What on earth is going on?
For all we know she got out of the car with Kyron, set him up on the bridge, and pushed him into a river. Baby still in the car. Would have taken 2 minutes. Or the baby could have been right there too. This is no way absolves Terri of anything.
bbm
This is just your opinion, right? When I read your post I thought I had missed this in the video.So I watched the video again and it is not in there. That's if the video below is the one you are referring to.
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/07/kyron_hormans_parents_share_de.html
AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 11:19 AM
I guess it could go either way. I mean if there was a helper wouldn't they have weeded them out by now? They found her landscaper from 7 months ago and LE contacted another landscaper that tried to call TH about a bid but she never contacted him back. They are going through everyone she ever spoke with it seems. Maybe a girlfriend that she talks to regularly? Maybe told her that she needed to protect Kyron by getting him away? I'm just grasping here.
I also think she could have taken him from the science fair, drove him someplace and hurt him and hid him, baby or no baby. If she is the kind of person that could do that I don't supposed she would worry about a little toddler who can't talk yet.
A 19 month old can talk- not really well but all my grandkids said words at 19 months. Certainly she is no good for asking any questions about what she maybe saw/ heard...and thank the Lord she is so young she might not remember anything she might have seen. What ever happened to the babysitter story,did it just go ka-put? Why didn't anyone at the school (PTA President, etc) who saw Terri mention she had baby K with her also? Or, did they mentio9n it but Le did not release that info to "us"?
Oh, this gets creepier and creepier.
YellowSubmarine
07-09-2010, 11:20 AM
IF Baby K was with TH that morning, I don't think it means AT ALL she didn't hurt Kyron. It tells me that she thought having K with her would make her look innocent.
It makes complete sense those who have suggested LE left out the tidbit about K that morning to weed out "real" witnesses -- BUT I'm really surprised TH never said anything in the media. When asked what they did that morning, why did TH never say "We took him to the science fair", "We waved goodbye", "He went up one hall, we went up another"? I mean, even a slip up? I just don't know about it.
But he doesn't elaborate. Could it be that Terri was suffering from PPD? If so, was she being treated? IIRC, around the time of Kyron's birth is when his marriage to Desiree hit the rocks, too.
This reminds me of a case a few/several years ago. Can't remember where. A young mother took her 3 & 6 y/o boys for a car ride. Stopped in a field and left with the 6 y/o - he never came back. Mom tried to say he ran away or was kidnapped and it was the 3 y/o who told LE "I woke up and saw mommy carrying him away and mommy came back without him".
It's sad, but it happens.
After being analyzed, PHD's decided she had suffered from severe ppd with the 2nd one, rendering her with no attachment to him. She felt attachment with the older one, giving her the ability to "save him" from a horrible life. The ppd kept her from feeling the need to do so with the baby. Lucky for the baby, I guess -- so very, very sad.
ella971
07-09-2010, 11:21 AM
I have a question. Do you think it's possible that T harmed K? TIA
Calliope
07-09-2010, 11:22 AM
IF Baby K was with TH that morning, I don't think it means AT ALL she didn't hurt Kyron. It tells me that she thought having K with her would make her look innocent.
It makes complete sense those who have suggested LE left out the tidbit about K that morning to weed out "real" witnesses -- BUT I'm really surprised TH never said anything in the media. When asked what they did that morning, why did TH never say "We took him to the science fair", "We waved goodbye", "He went up one hall, we went up another"? I mean, even a slip up? I just don't know about it.
This reminds me of a case a few/several years ago. Can't remember where. A young mother took her 3 & 6 y/o boys for a car ride. Stopped in a field and left with the 6 y/o - he never came back. Mom tried to say he ran away or was kidnapped and it was the 3 y/o who told LE "I woke up and saw mommy carrying him away and mommy came back without him".
It's sad, but it happens.
After being analyzed, PHD's decided she had suffered from severe ppd with the 2nd one, rendering her with no attachment to him. She felt attachment with the older one, giving her the ability to "save him" from a horrible life. The ppd kept her from feeling the need to do so with the baby. Lucky for the baby, I guess -- so very, very sad.
bbm
I haven't heard Terri speak at all.
liz b.
07-09-2010, 11:35 AM
ITA.The baby was asleep, or hoping she was. I was thinking about the pings which led LE to SI. To bad it had to rain heavy the next day,maybe LE could have gotten tire tracks. Oh my heart just breaks with the maybes, the what if's. Im sure KY is thinking the same, if I only would have gone to the science fair.
Where are you sweetie?
I posted about the cell phone pings at the very beginning of the case. I was just speculating. Has LE ever come out and mentioned cell phone pings as being any part of their investigation ? Anyone smart enough to plan a possible murder would also very probably think to turn off their cell phone.
All JMO
ClueMeIn
07-09-2010, 11:39 AM
This is shocking. I think many of us have wondered where the little girl was that morning. For me this is another thing in Terri's favor of her not having done anything to Kyron.
This video is very difficult to watch. What on earth is going on?
For all we know she got out of the car with Kyron, set him up on the bridge, and pushed him into a river. Baby still in the car. Would have taken 2 minutes. Or the baby could have been right there too. This is no way absolves Terri of anything.
bbm
This is just your opinion, right? When I read your post I thought I had missed this in the video.So I watched the video again and it is not in there. That's if the video below is the one you are referring to.
I bolded the operative words. :)
matou
07-09-2010, 11:50 AM
I just read this and I don't know if it's been posted yet but Desiree stated that Kyron was marked absent at 10 a.m.
"I said, 'What in the hell is going on?' She informed me that she had gone to the science fair that morning and she did not walk into his classroom, but saw him walk toward his classroom and that was the last she saw him," Young told CNN. "He was marked absent at 10."
http://www.kptv.com/news/24197226/detail.html
tehcloser
07-09-2010, 11:59 AM
Ok....Hold the door. What is this?
Young also said she suspects that Terri Horman did not act alone.
CNN: "Do you think she would have done this alone?"
Desiree Young: "I don't believe so because honestly she didn't take out a contract on her husband alone, so I think she probably needed help. But that's speculation. It's not proven and I don't have any evidence to say that's the case, but I think it helps me feel better about the situation if that's the case.
http://www.kptv.com/news/24197226/detail.html
Is she saying there was someone else besides TH and the landscaper involved with the MFH?????????????
CathyinTexas
07-09-2010, 12:08 PM
I would like to think that this means she didn't hurt him, that she handed him off to be held somewhere, but she did try to hire someone to kill KH, so is seems quite possible that she could do the same for Little Kyron.
It just never occured to me that Baby K could have been there! That is a shocking revelation!
DY seems to trust her gut instincts about TH, such as that she is lying, something doesn't add up, etc. So it is possible that the leads they do have combined with her gut instincts indicates that KH is alive. I hope and pray that he is.
Boo Scout
07-09-2010, 01:45 PM
Ok....Hold the door. What is this?
Young also said she suspects that Terri Horman did not act alone.
CNN: "Do you think she would have done this alone?"
Desiree Young: "I don't believe so because honestly she didn't take out a contract on her husband alone, so I think she probably needed help. But that's speculation. It's not proven and I don't have any evidence to say that's the case, but I think it helps me feel better about the situation if that's the case.
http://www.kptv.com/news/24197226/detail.html
Is she saying there was someone else besides TH and the landscaper involved with the MFH?????????????
I think she's speculating that TH had help with Kyron's disappearance, and comparing it to the MFH plot. Saying she sought help with MFH so it makes sense she'd seek help with this as well. MOO.
Donjeta
07-09-2010, 05:14 PM
If the baby was there with her it might actually have made it easier to slip out with Kyron unnoticed. She could have taken care to be seen leaving the school with the baby, no Kyron, left her in the vehicle and come back for Kyron. Or someone might have seen her leave with the baby and the boy and with the baby stealing the attention, maybe they might have taken them for two young siblings of a child in school and didn't wonder why a pupil was leaving in the middle of the school day.
Was Kyron big, small or average for his age?
Calliope
07-09-2010, 05:59 PM
If the baby was there with her it might actually have made it easier to slip out with Kyron unnoticed. She could have taken care to be seen leaving the school with the baby, no Kyron, left her in the vehicle and come back for Kyron. Or someone might have seen her leave with the baby and the boy and with the baby stealing the attention, maybe they might have taken them for two young siblings of a child in school and didn't wonder why a pupil was leaving in the middle of the school day.
Was Kyron big, small or average for his age?
I think he's rather small; not much bigger than my 4 year old grandson.
she could have carried baby and put Kyron in a stroller covered in blankets or jackets.
x_files
07-14-2010, 11:28 PM
electric projects or cool electric things to show a child:
• taser gun
• electric dam on Sauvie Island
• promise to show him a cool project somewhere ese
used to lure him off school grounds by a stranger, acquaintance or family member.
Haeve
07-14-2010, 11:53 PM
electric projects or cool electric things to show a child:
• taser gun
• electric dam on Sauvie Island
• promise to show him a cool project somewhere ese
used to lure him off school grounds by a stranger, acquaintance or family member.
BBM
AFAIK, there's no electric dam on Sauvie Island, at least not one of any size. Do you of one? It think if there were any, it would have to be micro hydro setup, and I just don't think that would be very impressive. They could have lied to Kyron, but I bet he would know what was or was not on Sauvie Island.
kappy50
07-16-2010, 04:01 PM
This may have been asked and answered, if so I apologize...but how far in advance did the students have to prepare for this Science Fair ? I looked on the school's calendar and could not find it. Actually, the only thing posted for that day was the talent show.
Bonneville Dam is about 40 miles up the Columbia River East of Portland. Is there some link to it with the case? Ta
I've wondered about that, in fact, a lot. It is pretty spectacular place, and in checking it out I noticed that TH had done an electricity curriculum project on Bonneville. Otherwise, from Sauvie, one can see big mills across the river.
kappy50
07-16-2010, 11:23 PM
Is there anyway to find out how much time frame these children had to do the science fair...I really think that is important...can we find that out I do not know....other than checking with a school official...
Noway
07-18-2010, 05:11 PM
Why were Kaine and Terri the only parents in KP's classroom who didn't know when they were supposed to pick up the projects?
I say this because of the photo of Kyron's project in the empty classroom (photo taken June 5).
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Kyron%20Horman%20%20-OR-/kh17s.jpg
Noway
07-18-2010, 05:16 PM
I am reading this thread in its entirety, but in regard to T referring to a "substitute teacher" and there not having been any subs that day, I wondered whether the parent that was there was also a substitute.
My son has a classmate whose mom is a substitute and sometimes when we see her at the school, we don't know whether she is there as a substitute or as a parent.
Maybe this child previously had this parent as a sub, and that is why he referred to her as such.
Emma Peel
07-18-2010, 05:22 PM
I am reading this thread in its entirety, but in regard to T referring to a "substitute teacher" and there not having been any subs that day, I wondered whether the parent that was there was also a substitute.
My son has a classmate whose mom is a substitute and sometimes when we see her at the school, we don't now whether she is there as a substitute or as a parent.
Maybe this child previously had this parent as a sub, and that is why he referred to her as such.
Always believed this to be the obvious answer. I never got terribly excited about all of that. This is a kid talking. Probably not an accomplished liar or someone with an agenda. Just a kid. Their recollections might actually be accurate and helpful, so long as you put your kid hat on, clarify terms (such as "substitute"), and have adults around to help them frame timing properly.
21merc7
07-18-2010, 05:24 PM
I am reading this thread in its entirety, but in regard to T referring to a "substitute teacher" and there not having been any subs that day, I wondered whether the parent that was there was also a substitute.
My son has a classmate whose mom is a substitute and sometimes when we see her at the school, we don't now whether she is there as a substitute or as a parent.
Maybe this child previously had this parent as a sub, and that is why he referred to her as such.
Noway I could be wrong, and someone will jump in and fix it. The child that was with Kyron after TH left school called the "parent helper" substitute teacher in the video. I think that is just what they commonly said when there was someone besides the normal teacher present.
Noway
07-18-2010, 05:42 PM
21merc7 -- I can see that.
I've been in my son's class after lunch, before the teacher returned and several kids have asked, "Are you our sub?!"
I've also heard kids refer to the woman I mentioned above as a "sub" even when she was there in the capacity of L's mom. These kids did not realize she was not only a "sub" but also the mother of a child at the school.
To this day, when my son sees a woman whose daughter was a grade ahead of him and who played on his basketball team, he refers to her as Mrs. A's sub, not as K's mom.
Donjeta
07-18-2010, 05:47 PM
Why were Kaine and Terri the only parents in KP's classroom who didn't know when they were supposed to pick up the projects?
I say this because of the photo of Kyron's project in the empty classroom (photo taken June 5).
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Kyron%20Horman%20%20-OR-/kh17s.jpg
Would the children who were actually at school until the end of the day have been allowed to transport their project home in the school bus if their parents didn't come to pick both their child and the project up?
mysticrose
07-18-2010, 06:53 PM
Did we ever determine where the baby was that morning ? TIA...
Mystic
Donjeta
07-18-2010, 06:54 PM
According to Kaine she was with Terri.
mysticrose
07-18-2010, 07:05 PM
According to Kaine she was with Terri.
Hmmmm....I was listening to this audio interview and this gal said that Terri left the baby at home that morning when she went to the SF ?:waitasec:
I had never heard that before so I was just curious, because if she left her at home who was watching her ?
Here is a link it starts around the :58 min mark, the woman speaking about it is Casey Jordan (criminolgist):
Concrete Evidence Vital in Kyron Case - CBS News Video
BeanE
07-18-2010, 07:17 PM
Hmmmm....I was listening to this audio interview and this gal said that Terri left the baby at home that morning when she went to the SF ?:waitasec:
I had never heard that before so I was just curious, because if she left her at home who was watching her ?
Here is a link it starts around the :58 min mark, the woman speaking about it is Casey Jordan (criminolgist):
Concrete Evidence Vital in Kyron Case - CBS News Video (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6687945n)
She's got several things wrong...
human
07-18-2010, 07:23 PM
If it was Terri who took him out of the school, she is the parent. I hardly think that she would have to think of anything clever to get him out of school.
Kids go with their parents. Nothing clever needed at all.
Donjeta
07-18-2010, 07:37 PM
If it was Terri who took him out of the school, she is the parent. I hardly think that she would have to think of anything clever to get him out of school.
Kids go with their parents. Nothing clever needed at all.
Indeed.
"Let's go, we have to hurry now."
"Why?"
"I'll explain later, come now."
kappy50
07-21-2010, 04:59 PM
welll I still don't think we were ever able to come up with how long the students participating in the science fair had to prepare for the SF. Therefore, I went to the schools website. It's not listed on the 2010 calendar. If you look at the 2009 student handbook, there is a calendar of events in there. It lists the talent show, but no SF. (may/June)...So I wonder is the SF is always a yearly event at the school or was this the first time and put together quickly ? So quickly that Kaine and DY,TY or anyone else couldn't attend because it was such a short notice that no one could get off of work. Leaving the only other party involved to attend.
Pondering Mind
07-21-2010, 06:56 PM
I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but since I was gone for a couple of weeks I missed it.. but I remember seeing a video with Kaine and Desiree, (I'll go hunt for the link if no one remembers it) where DY says that she was under the impression that TH was going to be @ the science fair until 10 am (not her exact words, but very close) Does anyone know WHY she thought that? She never did say in the presser why she was under that impression and I have been curious ever since. Has that ever been explained by anyone? TIA!
PortlandMama
07-21-2010, 07:28 PM
I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but since I was gone for a couple of weeks I missed it.. but I remember seeing a video with Kaine and Desiree, (I'll go hunt for the link if no one remembers it) where DY says that she was under the impression that TH was going to be @ the science fair until 10 am (not her exact words, but very close) Does anyone know WHY she thought that? She never did say in the presser why she was under that impression and I have been curious ever since. Has that ever been explained by anyone? TIA!
Yes, it was the Nightline interview: http://www.hulu.com/watch/163297/abc-nightline-the-suspicious-stepmother#http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hulu.com%2Ffeed%2Frece nt%2Ftv
TMK, we still don't why for sure she thinks that. I have my own ideas about it, though, which I've posted on other threads here, ranging from potentially worrisome to entirely innocent. If you go to my profile and search my posts you could find my other comments, but I don't think they generated much interest. :woohoo: LOL... Glad to hear someone else is intrigued by this too!
Caligram
07-21-2010, 09:37 PM
Ir's horrible but likely that any Science Fair from now on is going to trigger memories of a child being abducted from school. Maybe a lot of emotion, prior to and happening after, was tied up with this Science Fair. If it wasn't on the school calendar, then it may have been an annual project covered in due date reminders sent home with students. It surely couldn't have been spur-of-the-moment, as this seems to have been an affair for most grade levels. I believe that in one media publication it was stated that the project was done by both Kyron and his dad. I think that is misleading. To name Terri (with her teacher's degree) as working with Kyron on this would have made people feel that it gave Kyron an unfair advantage. The completed project submitted with Kyron's name was something one would expect to see on the pages of National Geographic. I wonder if even Kyron was embarassed by the contrast between his display and the rest of his classmates. He seems to have been a bright and sensitive boy, able to respond to the comments of others in his classroom that day. I believe that the message to the media that Kyron was excited to show off his project to his step-mom was rather deceptive. She had already seen the project at their home, was most likely the major designer and producer, and she took the project in to the school the previous day. So, how could Terri be surprised. Possibly Terri was surprised and angry at the probable reaction of other parents and students who may have regarded Kyron's project was well beyond the capabilities of a seven-year-old. Taking unfair advantage does not always go over big, as kids have a sense of what's fair and what isn't. Maybe during the construction of the project Kaine and Terri had disagreements over Terri's "superiority" in dominating how this project was done. Kyron may have had his own ideas for a red-eyed tree frog that weren't so grandiose, but simply covering the keen interest of a seven-year-old. It would be interesting to see what the rules of this project were.
My elementary school grands get many assignments for school projects, some rather time-consuming, demanding and difficult considering their ages. Parents are forewarned to keep their hands off. If a project is turned in that the teacher recognizes is beyond the ability of the student, no grade is given, so punishment is swift.
Poor Kyron probably had many struggles with being allowed to be a seven-year-old and not a promoter of/for Terri. I don't believe that Kaine did much in the way of "power struggles" over how Terri was raising his children. He may have caved in to her "trust me - I know best" methods of controlling the household. Some parents will take a back seat to rules and expectations for the sake of peace and quiet. I wonder if that is what went on in the Kaine household.
This is all strictly my opinion. Please excuse grammar, punctuation and longevity. I speak from my heart and my brain isn't always awake, but keeps on turning and churning.
kappy50
07-21-2010, 10:18 PM
I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but since I was gone for a couple of weeks I missed it.. but I remember seeing a video with Kaine and Desiree, (I'll go hunt for the link if no one remembers it) where DY says that she was under the impression that TH was going to be @ the science fair until 10 am (not her exact words, but very close) Does anyone know WHY she thought that? She never did say in the presser why she was under that impression and I have been curious ever since. Has that ever been explained by anyone? TIA!
don't know the timeline...but do know DY and Kaine WERE not there...very special day for Kyron....
wondering1
07-21-2010, 10:35 PM
don't know the timeline...but do know DY and Kaine WERE not there...very special day for Kyron....
Of course we all have our own personal priorities and parenting styles, and we all view certain actions or inactions through our own lenses. With that said, this is a total *meh, so what* for me.
I work ft at a demanding job and have 2 elem. kids. I try to make the big stuff, like plays, concerts, etc. but I miss a good bit -- especially if it takes place during school hours. Sometimes it's just not feasible and, frankly, sometimes I just don't think a particular event is all that important. And I only work 15 minutes from the school. Not hours away. I would most definitely NOT be driving several hours to see a science project merely displayed during a fair that lasted one hour and involved the kids touring the other classrooms in groups. I'd be far more likely to attend a performance type thing. Not to mention that the fair started at 9, so DY would have had to leave her house at what? . . . 4 or 5 am to even get there on time.
So, from my perspective, I would have found it kind of odd and over-involved if she DID go under the circumstances. jmoojmoojmoo
eta: I just realized you were talking about DY and KH not DY and TY. But I'd say the same wrt Kaine, except for the distance part, obviously. And I agree with prior posts about why he wouldn't be there. Also a "meh, so what" for me.
kappy50
07-21-2010, 10:53 PM
Of course we all have our own personal priorities and parenting styles, and we all view certain actions or inactions through our own lenses. With that said, this is a total *meh, so what* for me.
I work ft at a demanding job and have 2 elem. kids. I try to make the big stuff, like plays, concerts, etc. but I miss a good bit -- especially if it takes place during school hours. Sometimes it's just not feasible and, frankly, sometimes I just don't think a particular event is all that important. And I only work 15 minutes from the school. Not hours away. I would most definitely NOT be driving several hours to see a science project merely displayed during a fair that lasted one hour and involved the kids touring the other classrooms in groups. I'd be far more likely to attend a performance type thing. Not to mention that the fair started at 9, so DY would have had to leave her house at what? . . . 4 or 5 am to even get there on time.
So, from my perspective, I would have found it kind of odd and over-involved if she DID go under the circumstances. jmoojmoojmoo
eta: I just realized you were talking about DY and KH not DY and TY. But I'd say the same wrt Kaine, except for the distance part, obviously. And I agree with prior posts about why he wouldn't be there. Also a "meh, so what" for me.
thanks wondering...I guess I have slept since then...what was Kaines reasoning for not being there....as far as whether you go or do not go to your childrens/child's event...totally up to you. I TOO have a demanding job, but if I knew in advance and it was important to my son and or daughter, who I only see every two weeks or so, I'd leave at midnight to be there and camp out in the school parking lot, if I had no other place to go...But having said what I said, I have one child ( she is now 31 )both my husband and myself had and still have demanding job's...but nothing that if I/we miss work, that I we could not have made up later. What may not have been that important in our eyes, to our daughter, was extremely important....and that's all I got to say about 'dat!
wondering1
07-21-2010, 11:09 PM
thanks wondering...I guess I have slept since then...what was Kaines reasoning for not being there....as far as whether you go or do not go to your childrens/child's event...totally up to you. I TOO have a demanding job, but if I knew in advance and it was important to my son and or daughter, who I only see every two weeks or so, I'd leave at midnight to be there and camp out in the school parking lot, if I had no other place to go...But having said what I said, I have one child ( she is now 31 )both my husband and myself had and still have demanding job's...but nothing that if I/we miss work, that I we could not have made up later. What may not have been that important in our eyes, to our daughter, was extremely important....and that's all I got to say about 'dat!
As I said, different strokes. I'm not dissing your priorities or parenting style at all, but they are entirely different than mine, and I'm okay with mine, too. Having said that, I'm sure my kids will be bi*tching to their therapists 20 years from now about how I scarred them for life by not attending their Lego city display lol (yes, that was an actual event).
Re KH not attending, I think he just made some kinda general remarks about having been at work and not attending everything, but trying to acknowledge those accomplishments in some other way when he couldn't attend -- like the ice cream, in this particular case. Totally paraphrasing, but I think it was being discussed today. Maybe even in this thread lol
and fwiw, I'm not a workaholic by any stretch, and my schedule is typically quite flexible. I leave to attend kids' school stuff when I think it's important, and I don't if I don't think it's that important, or on the rare day when I simply cannot. I have to say, though, my kids are super active in very time-consuming sports. So I put in a lot of time nights and weekends on their stuff. That probably makes me less inclined to worry about attending what I consider to be relatively minor school events.
Pondering Mind
07-22-2010, 12:52 AM
don't know the timeline...but do know DY and Kaine WERE not there...very special day for Kyron....
TY, I knew that DY and Kaine weren't there, I was just pondering what made DY say something to the effect of *she was under the impression that TH was going to be at the science fair until it ended @ 10am that morning* DY 'seemed' (at least to me anyway :)) fairly confident that TH's intentions were to stay the entire time. She didn't elaborate however as to how/why she would know that....like maybe she had spoken to TH and had been told that specifically ...IDK, I'm sure LE does and that's all that matters, lol...I just found it curious, that's all..
As far as neither Kaine or DY being @ the science fair, I don't read much at all into that. (regarding Kyron's disappearance anyway) As others have pointed out as well, what is an acceptable 'parenting style' (for lack of a better word) for one person may not be for another. As a single working mom, I was able to make most events @ my childrens' school when they were young..but not all..as I had a job that I couldn't always leave, not even for an hour or so, barring an emergency and I certainly couldn't afford to lose my job, ya know?
We really have NO idea what the family dynamics were really like...maybe Kaine was not as plugged in as he should have been, (not unlike MANY otherwise loving, imperfect parents ;-) I don't know that obviously, lol, maybe he was and usually attended Kyron's school events but had something pressing going on @ work..again, IDK..but he definitely *appears* to possibly have missed some *issues* going on at home. I find it hard to believe that all this came out of nowhere..but who knows?
With DY living several hours away it had to be difficult to attend school functions...that's a pretty long round trip. I could never have lived that far away from my child..heck, my children are grown and I would LOVE to live on the coast but won't move and leave them and my grandchildren 4.5 hours away! But that's just me and many parents do for a variety of reasons and imo it doesn't make them bad people or bad parents... just different than myself..
No matter what I think of anything that Kyron's parents have done or not done ..unless any of it pertains to Kyron's disappearance I really don't care to be honest..now if it does, that's a whole 'nother ball game! That said, I would have to imagine that LE knows about any 'skeletons in the closet' of all parents and unless/until there is an arrest we will be kept in the dark.
Kyron just needs to be brought home, one way or another :( I hate to say that, but sadly I'm just not feeling warm and fuzzy about the outcome of this case...
RoughlyCollie
07-22-2010, 09:36 AM
don't know the timeline...but do know DY and Kaine WERE not there...very special day for Kyron....
Well, if a parent has to work, that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes. If a working parent has a conflict between his child's wants and his employer's needs, the employer wins because, if for no other valid reason, the paycheck puts a roof over the family's heads and food on the table.
Besides, we don't know how special the day actually was from Kyron's point of view, or whether having Kaine there was of utmost importance to him. He may have understood that his dad had to work, and been quite satisfied to have Terri there. He may have been excited about seeing the exhibits, and whether his parents were there may not have been all that important to him, as long as one was there (so he didn't feel left out when the other kids' parents were there).
My four kids had project days similar to this when they were young, and they were not excited about it. They quickly learned early on that their projects never lived up to those that parents did for their kids. They had a hard time understanding why this was not okay, because the parents' projects always received the most praise and/or won the competitions. That may have been okay with some parents, the teachers and the school, but it was not okay with me. Real self esteem comes from one's own hard work and achievements, and to hand it out for free based on the work of someone else is cheating the children, plain and simple.
If I had done most of the work on my young kids' projects, what was there for them to be excited about? Public recognition for something they did not do. That's a real downer to most kids when they think about it -- it means, in essence, that their parents did not have much faith in their child's ability to do the work and that the child could not live up to his parent's expectations.
kappy50
07-22-2010, 10:08 AM
I think the timeline is important simply because, if Kaine and DY thought this was planned ahead of time and to happen at the SF, did Teri have a whole school calendar year to plan it, or just a few months, or a few weeks to plan it. JMO...
I think the timeline is important simply because, if Kaine and DY thought this was planned ahead of time and to happen at the SF, did Teri have a whole school calendar year to plan it, or just a few months, or a few weeks to plan it. JMO...
Both Kaine and Desiree expressed regret that they had to work that day, so it isn't like they didn't know the SF was happening. Using their own words, they knew about the SF prior to the day it happened and would have been able to gauge how special a day it was for Kyron. Neither parent chose to show, which says to me that it was a blip for them on the radar of events in their child's life.
I find it very interesting, however, that each parent holds Terri accountable for not sticking around for the whole thing.
SurfieTX
07-22-2010, 01:38 PM
I find it very interesting, however, that each parent holds Terri accountable for not sticking around for the whole thing.
But, but...she did! Class started at 8:45. That was when the final bell rang. I seriously doubt they let parents stick around until 10:00 a.m. unless they were a known chaperon.
ThoughtFox
07-22-2010, 01:48 PM
Both Kaine and Desiree expressed regret that they had to work that day, so it isn't like they didn't know the SF was happening. Using their own words, they knew about the SF prior to the day it happened and would have been able to gauge how special a day it was for Kyron. Neither parent chose to show, which says to me that it was a blip for them on the radar of events in their child's life.
I find it very interesting, however, that each parent holds Terri accountable for not sticking around for the whole thing.
I think hindsight is 20/20. Kaine and Desiree didn't make plans to be there, something they will probably regret the rest of their lives, but how could they know that it was possibly the last school event of Kyron's young life? Science Fair projects are also assignments that count for a grade and are sometimes a hassle (I know because my kids have done many of them over ther years). We don't really know who helped Kyron with this one (do we?), but that might be part of the problem - it wasn't like a musical program or sporting event, and happened before school not after school which is always awkward.
Having said that, if TH was the only parent who was going to be there, then I can see their point that she should have stayed longer. But then again, she must have had . . . other plans . . .
I simply suggest that the two birth parents were not so concerned with Terri that they chose to become more active in their child's life. That is all.
Wrinkles
07-22-2010, 01:59 PM
Both Kaine and Desiree expressed regret that they had to work that day, so it isn't like they didn't know the SF was happening. Using their own words, they knew about the SF prior to the day it happened and would have been able to gauge how special a day it was for Kyron. Neither parent chose to show, which says to me that it was a blip for them on the radar of events in their child's life.
I find it very interesting, however, that each parent holds Terri accountable for not sticking around for the whole thing.
Hiya Deb,
Could you help me to the reports/indications that Kyron's birth parents hold Terri accountable for not sticking around for the whole thing? I haven't read anything intimating that at all, what have I missed?
I've read/heard that Kaine noted Terri took the truck for the purpose of bringing back the science project, but he noted that she didn't stay for that particular whole thing. Outside of that, I haven't read anything that would lead me to believe that either birth parent hold Terri accountable for staying for the whole thing.
BeanE
07-22-2010, 02:20 PM
But, but...she did! Class started at 8:45. That was when the final bell rang. I seriously doubt they let parents stick around until 10:00 a.m. unless they were a known chaperon.
Well that's what I thought all along, that parents would have to leave at the final bell at 8:45, but now Kaine seems to think the parents could stay until 10.
Calliope
07-22-2010, 02:25 PM
Well that's what I thought all along, that parents would have to leave at the final bell at 8:45, but now Kaine seems to think the parents could stay until 10.
I found her comment confusing too; it's pretty clear that school started at its normal time, with classes breaking up into smaller groups to tour exhibits, but regular classroom activity didn't begin until 10am when the tours were over.
Jules71
07-22-2010, 02:59 PM
I thought the sign for the science fair said it was from 8 - 10 am, which leads me to believe the public would be welcome that entire time. Kids did go to their classrooms at the regular school start time (8:45) to be put into groups.
Desiree said she thought Terri was going to stay for the entire science fair. I believe she said that on video when she was talking about the call with Terri about Kyron being missing.
Calliope
07-22-2010, 03:04 PM
I thought the sign for the science fair said it was from 8 - 10 am, which leads me to believe the public would be welcome that entire time. Kids did go to their classrooms at the regular school start time (8:45) to be put into groups.
Desiree said she thought Terri was going to stay for the entire science fair. I believe she said that on video when she was talking about the call with Terri about Kyron being missing.
It could be taken either way, really. The science fair did last until 10, but for that last hour it was classes touring; if I was a skyline parent, I'd think I was supposed to leave by the time the kids went to class (8:45). How chaotic... I hope with the additional security put in place due to this, the school also reconsiders how it handles these events and be a little bit more precise as to who has access and when.
That's what I'm saying. They seemed to indicate that the SF was kind of a surprise to them, that they didn't have time to plan to attend, but in the same vein, suggest that they had knowledge of when it was, what was going to happen, and how long it would last.
SurfieTX
07-22-2010, 05:11 PM
That's what I'm saying. They seemed to indicate that the SF was kind of a surprise to them, that they didn't have time to plan to attend, but in the same vein, suggest that they had knowledge of when it was, what was going to happen, and how long it would last.
And then had no clue about the talent show, which was on the very same sign.
Forgive me if this has been asked and answered but were the children to take their projects home with them that day?
Surely not because then TMH lollygagging to the bus stop would have been extremely obvious as once the alarm of Kyron missing spread someone would have said well, someone was supposed to pick up Kyron and his display.
He wouldn’t be expected to bring it home by bus if it was too bulky to even fit in the Mustang…..
TMH may not have mentioned much about the SF & TS because K may have expected her to represent the family at the TS and maybe she just didn’t want to do that. TMH put herself in the role of Kyron’s mother and since she was the sahm then I really don’t think it is all that out of line to expect her to continue to be interested in Kyron and his education.
When my husband was between construction jobs and home during the day I expected him to keep up and attend DD school & extra curricular activities because I had to work. I got filled in on goings on and didn’t have to worry with keeping up with appointments, etc. It is very liberating and since my job was important to the household I felt I was still doing my part.
When your child goes to an IB school or a private one then there are lots of these sorts of opportunities and it does put a conflict on the working parents who would like to attend. Those in punch the clock jobs as well as those with high power positions.
All IMO
wvjules
07-30-2010, 02:44 PM
More science fair confusion...
In 7/30 PC KH stated that the science fair presentations were actually on Thursday and the displays were left up for Friday.
Doens't the school's billboard have the IB Expo listed as 6/4?
What day was the science fair? :waitasec:
SurfieTX
07-30-2010, 02:50 PM
More science fair confusion...
In 7/30 PC KH stated that the science fair presentations were actually on Thursday and the displays were left up for Friday.
Doens't the school's billboard have the IB Expo listed as 6/4?
What day was the science fair? :waitasec:
This is how I interpreted it. Thursday was for class presentation (like the video we saw of Kyron and the bridge). Friday was for parental viewing from 8 to 10ish.
So, the confusion was IMHO that KH and TH thought Thursday was for parents too, not Friday. Basically had the days switched. Of course, TH could have created that confusion.
Oh, I have so much more to post about this, but I have to go for a bit...
Jo in Calif
07-30-2010, 03:20 PM
As I stated in the why I think Terry did it thread. Has it been confirmed anywhere, if there is a link please provide, that the students were to be in class at 8:45 and broken into small groups and toured the science fair. I believe the science fair on the 4th was from 8 to 10 for the parents to tour the science fair with their children. I believe LE had asked that no one talk to the media, because they were investigating what Terry had told them, about dropping Kyron at his class, at 8:45, because he was supposed to be there. I think the student or his Gramdna, that talked to the media and told the story about the teacher saying that kyron was in the restroom, started this 8:45 class starting, theory. I think it was a huge red herring, This is MIO.
SunsetHeel
07-30-2010, 03:21 PM
I think a lot of the confusion is a lack of understanding of what an IB PYP Expo actually represents. Information about the IB PYP program can be found at the following website (I am still new to this forum so I hope I have done this right) I included the websites and the information in the post below. Skyline School in Portland is a candidate school, so the IB format while followed was probably a "new" format for the school. The IB expo is primairly for older students, not the younger students. I think the school included the younger children to prepare them for their "expo" when they get to the higher level. The parents of the younger students would not have had as much information about the process.
Introduction
The Primary Years Programme (PYP) exhibition represents a significant event in the life of a PYP school and student, synthesizing the essential elements of the PYP and sharing them with the whole school community. As a culminating experience it is an opportunity for students to exhibit the attributes of the International Baccalaureate (IB) learner profile that have been developing throughout their engagement with the PYP.
In the students’ final year of the PYP, which occurs in some schools at age 10–11 and in others at age 11–12, there are five units of inquiry and the exhibition*. The exhibition unit takes place under any transdisciplinary theme at the discretion of the school. Students are required to engage in a collaborative, transdisciplinary inquiry process that involves them in identifying, investigating and offering solutions to real-life issues or problems. The central idea selected must be of sufficient scope and significance to warrant a detailed investigation by all students.
*Only IB World Schools offering the PYP are required to participate in the exhibition although candidate schools may choose to do so.
Visit Exhibition guidelines to learn more about...
· Purpose
· Essential features of the exhibition
· Roles in the exhibition
· Organizing the exhibition
· Collaboration within the exhibition
· Staging the exhibition
· The use of ICT
· Practices in the exhibition
· Student guidelines
· PYP exhibition planner
· Monitoring of the exhibition
· Exhibition materials on the OCC
· Exhibition reflection tool
· Samples
http://pypexhibition.ning.com/
Skyline Elementary School in Portland OR
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools-c/profiles/?id=186
Focus options: Skyline is currently a candidate school for the IB PYP and MYP Programmes.
SurfieTX
11-01-2010, 11:55 AM
Hmm..I was just re-reading some things and this stood out to me:
"One person who has been asked again about what he saw is Skyline seventh-grader T.K., whose science fair project was on antimatter. He said investigators came back to interview him last week at his home."
"He said when he saw Kyron in the gym he didn’t see Terri Horman with him. He and his family have turned over pictures they took at the science fair to investigators, but they’ve been asked not to disclose the timeframe in which he saw Kyron."
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98434609.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ANTIMATTER: Positrons and antiprotons can individually be stored in a device called a Penning trap, which uses a combination of magnetic field and electric fields to hold charged particles in a vacuum.
http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Antimatter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is this project the "cool electric one?"
32beatspersecond
11-01-2010, 12:09 PM
Hmm..I was just re-reading some things and this stood out to me:
"One person who has been asked again about what he saw is Skyline seventh-grader T.K., whose science fair project was on antimatter. He said investigators came back to interview him last week at his home."
"He said when he saw Kyron in the gym he didn’t see Terri Horman with him. He and his family have turned over pictures they took at the science fair to investigators, but they’ve been asked not to disclose the timeframe in which he saw Kyron."
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98434609.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ANTIMATTER: Positrons and antiprotons can individually be stored in a device called a Penning trap, which uses a combination of magnetic field and electric fields to hold charged particles in a vacuum.
http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Antimatter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is this project the "cool electric one?"
is this in response to the alternate theory that Kyron has been vaporized?
SurfieTX
11-01-2010, 12:11 PM
is this in response to the alternate theory that Kyron has been vaporized?
LOL, no. This is in response to Kyron's friend's testimony that Kyron last told him he was going to see the "cool electric one", i.e. science project.
32beatspersecond
11-01-2010, 12:18 PM
LOL, no. This is in response to Kyron's friend's testimony that Kyron last told him he was going to see the "cool electric one", i.e. science project.
LOL - I know I was making light of the situation and making fun of another forum.
Billylee
11-01-2010, 07:44 PM
Hmm..I was just re-reading some things and this stood out to me:
"One person who has been asked again about what he saw is Skyline seventh-grader T.K., whose science fair project was on antimatter. He said investigators came back to interview him last week at his home."
"He said when he saw Kyron in the gym he didn’t see Terri Horman with him. He and his family have turned over pictures they took at the science fair to investigators, but they’ve been asked not to disclose the timeframe in which he saw Kyron."
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98434609.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ANTIMATTER: Positrons and antiprotons can individually be stored in a device called a Penning trap, which uses a combination of magnetic field and electric fields to hold charged particles in a vacuum.
http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Antimatter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is this project the "cool electric one?"
Thanks Surfie, that does sound like it may have been the "cool electric one".
ThoughtFox
11-03-2010, 09:27 AM
The more I think about this, the more I think the "cool electric project" is just a major red herring and has nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance.
Terri didn't have to lure him away with a promise of seeing it, especially if the judging of the science projects was on Thursday instead of Friday. Kyron might have mentioned it to the kid even if he had already seen it the day before.
All Terri had to do was tell Kyron to come outside with her. There's no evidence he was disobediant to her and I think she probably used that to lure him outside. Simple. JMOO
Billylee
11-03-2010, 11:57 AM
The more I think about this, the more I think the "cool electric project" is just a major red herring and has nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance.
Terri didn't have to lure him away with a promise of seeing it, especially if the judging of the science projects was on Thursday instead of Friday. Kyron might have mentioned it to the kid even if he had already seen it the day before.
All Terri had to do was tell Kyron to come outside with her. There's no evidence he was disobediant to her and I think she probably used that to lure him outside. Simple. JMOO
So, you think that TP who quoted Kyron, made it up and is telling a lie?
gwenabob
11-03-2010, 12:13 PM
So, you think that TP who quoted Kyron, made it up and is telling a lie?
I think he got his days confused. I think that incident actually happened on Thursday, not Friday.
Billylee
11-03-2010, 12:39 PM
I think he got his days confused. I think that incident actually happened on Thursday, not Friday.
Could be, but I don't think so, because I don't think the kids were running around viewing the projects on Thursday, from what I recall, that was just on Friday that they got to go see the other classes projects.
gwenabob
11-03-2010, 12:53 PM
Could be, but I don't think so, because I don't think the kids were running around viewing the projects on Thursday, from what I recall, that was just on Friday that they got to go see the other classes projects.
It is my understanding that they did indeed view the projects on Thursday afternoon.
Chili Fries
11-03-2010, 01:35 PM
Thanks Surfie, that does sound like it may have been the "cool electric one".
Just being about antimatter doesn't indicate his project would be referred to as the electric one. The science Surfie quoted refers to a sophisticated device I doubt would be part of a children's science fair.
My guess would be the electric project was one with cool looking flashing lights or moving parts, or maybe a Van de Graaff generator, which is the device you see at science museums that looks like a pole with a ball on top. It generates static electricity so when people touch it their hair stands up. They are also associated with Frankenstein movies because they can create flashes of electricity that look like mini lightning.
ThoughtFox
11-03-2010, 01:38 PM
So, you think that TP who quoted Kyron, made it up and is telling a lie?
I think he's telling the truth as he remembers it.
What I think is a red herring is the way people run away with this remark as major evidence of what happened to Kyron.
I think he got his days confused. I think that incident actually happened on Thursday, not Friday.
It is my understanding that they did indeed view the projects on Thursday afternoon.
I think gwenabob is correct in both statements.
Billylee
11-03-2010, 01:52 PM
It is my understanding that they did indeed view the projects on Thursday afternoon.
I never read that, do you have a link? I know they set up on Thursday, that's all I ever read.
SurfieTX
11-03-2010, 03:12 PM
Just being about antimatter doesn't indicate his project would be referred to as the electric one. The science Surfie quoted refers to a sophisticated device I doubt would be part of a children's science fair.
My guess would be the electric project was one with cool looking flashing lights or moving parts, or maybe a Van de Graaff generator, which is the device you see at science museums that looks like a pole with a ball on top. It generates static electricity so when people touch it their hair stands up. They are also associated with Frankenstein movies because they can create flashes of electricity that look like mini lightning.
The student who did the antimatter project was a 7th grader.
In any event, I noticed in that same article that he said he saw Kyron without Terri, which indicates to me that Terri and Kyron must have split up at some point that morning - which also jives with the truck being moved.
Chili Fries
11-03-2010, 03:45 PM
The student who did the antimatter project was a 7th grader.
In any event, I noticed in that same article that he said he saw Kyron without Terri, which indicates to me that Terri and Kyron must have split up at some point that morning - which also jives with the truck being moved.
Hope you didn't think I was being rude Surfie, just that I'm a scientist and I don't think a 7th grader would have a Penning device.
We also have the statement by MCSO spokesperson Mary Lindstrand, who said:
"His stepmother and he were in the school looking at the science fair, had been in 2 or 3 different classrooms. I am told he went up one stairwell, she went up the other stairwell. She saw him walking down the hall toward his classroom, and that’s the last she saw him.”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/95691389.html?tab=video
SurfieTX
11-03-2010, 03:48 PM
Hope you didn't think I was being rude Surfie, just that I'm a scientist and I don't think a 7th grader would have a Penning device.
We also have the statement by MCSO spokesperson Mary Lindstrand, who said:
"His stepmother and he were in the school looking at the science fair, had been in 2 or 3 different classrooms. I am told he went up one stairwell, she went up the other stairwell. She saw him walking down the hall toward his classroom, and that’s the last she saw him.”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/95691389.html?tab=video
No worries. I didn't think you were rude at all. :) Heck, I didn't even know what "antimatter" really was 100% anyway.
DreamyEye
11-03-2010, 05:33 PM
I can't entirely dismiss the "cool electric project" as a possible ruse, whether it was used by TH or someone more on the order of an opportunistic pedophile. Because it just doesn't seem likely that Kyron was taken by force. That school was just teaming with people. Anyone who tried to grab a kid couldn't be certain of being able to do it without being seen. The way it's been described, it was a scenario in which someone could have popped in or out of a classroom or around a corner, or into a restroom at any moment.
What seems more likely is that Kyron unwittingly helped his abductor by following instructions, whether that was something like 'come see my cool electric project' or 'meet me at the car when it's time to go to your appointment.' I think it was only possible for someone to take him after telling him to be at a certain place at a certain time, thereby allowing the abductor to direct Kyron to a place where he/they would not be seen.
It seems likely to me that LE knows more about the electric project than they are saying. After all, the person who did something to Kryon is out there somewhere and has access to all the same media sources that we do. I think LE is not saying much about the electric project either because it's very significant and they don't want to alert the perp that they're pursuing it ... or because they've looked into it and decided it's not a factor.
I will say this much: In these kinds of school things that I'm aware of, if there was really an electric project that Kryon was going out of his way to see and described as cool, then likely most of the kids knew about it and would be able to tell LE 'oh yeah, that was George's project' or 'oh, that's the one the 6th graders did.' Because kids "buzz" among themselves about these kinds of things. Everyone wants to see what the others regard as "cool." Everyone wants to get on the inside track. Kyron's own project was not about electricity, so there is no reason to think that he had any special interest in electricity. It sounds more like he had heard others (or one other) tout the project as something special to see. So to me, this was either a well known science project among the kids, or it didn't exist and was a ruse ... not anything in between.
And while LE may choose not to release everything they know about the cool electric project, there would be no reason that reporters couldn't ask around among students, teachers, and parents willing to discuss that day and find out WAS there one project, based on electricity, that was a little more interesting and exciting than the others?
I'm kind of leaning toward thinking that if anyone had done anything all that unique and amazing, a lot of students, parents, and teachers would know exactly which one it was. It's kind of telling to me that this has not been addressed by anyone who was actually there that day, except for the one friend Kryon made the comment to. (And no, I don't think the friend was lying or mixed up about the day.)
BeanE
11-12-2010, 03:43 PM
I think he got his days confused. I think that incident actually happened on Thursday, not Friday.
Could be, but I don't think so, because I don't think the kids were running around viewing the projects on Thursday, from what I recall, that was just on Friday that they got to go see the other classes projects.
I think gwenabob is correct in both statements.
I never read that, do you have a link? I know they set up on Thursday, that's all I ever read.
I didn't see any links provided for the above, so I did a little research, and came up with these:
I transcribed this from the 25 minute audio interview with the Oregonian, where Kaine says the students did their science reports on Thursday:
Kaine: Her (Terri's) story was that they had walked through and done the project on Thursday, which I believe they had done. They had done their reports on Thursday. It still had to be on display for the science fair.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/terri_hormans_emails_to_kyron.html
Valhall's blog post about the 25 minute audio where she speculates that the students may have formally toured on Thursday afternoon, and speculates further that TP is recalling something from Thursday:
While it was not explicitly stated what day Terri took the project to school, Kaine explicitly states that Terri did use the pickup on a previous day (it is assumed by this writer it was Thursday) to take the project to school.
Contrary to previous understandings the classes formally toured the science fair on Thursday and did their “reports”. This most likely means that TP’s recollections of events about a 6 student group and a “substitute teacher” who led them through the fair is about Thursday. It also most likely means that TP’s recollection of Kyron saying he wanted to go back and see the cool “electric” project was on Thursday. This is not confirmed, but it starts to make TP’s account “work”.
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2010/07/28/kyron-horman-case-parents-give-informative-interview/
I hope that helps figure where the Thursday stuff may have come from, Billylee. It's all I could find.
ThoughtFox
11-12-2010, 06:54 PM
BeanE: The day Gwenabob and I talked about this I tried for an hour to find a transcript of Kaine talking about Thursday. I don't think it's a big mystery of this case or anything, so I dropped it. Plus as I said in a previous post, I find this topic to be a red herring anyway, leading nowhere. JMOO
I didn't see any links provided for the above, so I did a little research, and came up with these:
I transcribed this from the 25 minute audio interview with the Oregonian, where Kaine says the students did their science reports on Thursday:
Kaine: Her (Terri's) story was that they had walked through and done the project on Thursday, which I believe they had done. They had done their reports on Thursday. It still had to be on display for the science fair.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/terri_hormans_emails_to_kyron.html
Thanks, I think that's a good enough source, coming from Kaine himself. He has no reason to lie about this information. This is also really old news that I believe is established and has been discussed on several threads.
Valhall's blog post about the 25 minute audio where she speculates that the students may have formally toured on Thursday afternoon, and speculates further that TP is recalling something from Thursday:
[i]While it was not explicitly stated what day Terri took the project to school, Kaine explicitly states that Terri did use the pickup on a previous day (it is assumed by this writer it was Thursday) to take the project to school.
Right - that blogger is confirming that her source is the one you posted above, with the quote from Kaine. So that's where all of us got it.
PaulaF513
11-12-2010, 08:43 PM
I think he got his days confused. I think that incident actually happened on Thursday, not Friday.
That's what the school administrator saud. Was there a science fair with chaperons on Thursday as well as Friday?
PaulaF513
11-12-2010, 08:55 PM
I really need to read the entire thread before posting questions.
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