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Angel4u2Whisper2
06-20-2010, 07:15 PM
I just wanted to toss this out because I have heard people saying that it doesn't make sense that she didn't turn her phone off. Maybe she did? Newer advances in telephones make it possiable to ping or track your telephone even when it is turned off. It is not a real commonly known thing, or easy to forget about. Perhaps, you may even think that your phone company or telephone model doesn't have that service. Earlier someone else listed a link as well, i'll add it too.

http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs2b-cellprivacy.htm


snip:
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/7/2/195035/3943
Even when 'off' it's periodically emitting a short burst to tell the system which tower(s) to use for your incoming calls. it's this burst which is used to locate you. Pull the battery to secure your location.



Plus, GPS might already have been an option if her husbands truck had onstar in his car. I am not sure if they can track it even if it isn't paid for via activation.

twzzlrgirl
06-20-2010, 07:20 PM
I just wanted to toss this out because I have heard people saying that it doesn't make sense that she didn't turn her phone off. Maybe she did? Newer advances in telephones make it possiable to ping or track your telephone even when it is turned off. It is not a real commonly known thing, or easy to forget about. Perhaps, you may even think that your phone company or telephone model doesn't have that service. Earlier someone else listed a link as well, i'll add it too.


Plus, GPS might already have been an option if her husbands truck had onstar in his car. I am not sure if they can track it even if it isn't paid for via activation.

snip:
Even when 'off' it's periodically emitting a short burst to tell the system which tower(s) to use for your incoming calls. it's this burst which is used to locate you. Pull the battery to secure your location.


http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/7/2/195035/3943
http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs2b-cellprivacy.htm

I have to say (and maybe I'm just naive), but I thought the phone could only be traced if I made a call, not just if the phone was on (and certainly not hours after the fact). Depending on how much she knows about these things, my guess is she had no clue.

And, Angel, I didn't know this fact at all. Very cool -- but probably not something very well known.

(Addition:...among other things, I teach and troubleshoot Tech in our middle school bldg., so I consider myself pretty "tech savvy," and I'd never heard of this....). So she may not have ever thought to turn the phone off.

cluciano63
06-20-2010, 07:22 PM
PS- you have to take the battery out of a phone, not to have it ping, is what I read...

Razzle
06-20-2010, 07:27 PM
Am I correct in assuming that a 'Ping' is when a cell phone makes communication with a cell tower?

PSA: if you are going to kill someone, leave the cell at home.

Angel4u2Whisper2
06-20-2010, 07:32 PM
True and understandable that people might think, if I don't call anyone..they wont find me or if I turn it off. Newer advances recently have changed that.

So true beans Razzle. If you commit a crime leave your cell at home or take out the battery.


:( Sadly though some missing people aren't found before the battery dies even when it is "on".

GrainneDhu
06-20-2010, 07:41 PM
I have to say (and maybe I'm just naive), but I thought the phone could only be traced if I made a call, not just if the phone was on (and certainly not hours after the fact). Depending on how much she knows about these things, my guess is she had no clue.

And, Angel, I didn't know this fact at all. Very cool -- but probably not something very well known.

(Addition:...among other things, I teach and troubleshoot Tech in our middle school bldg., so I consider myself pretty "tech savvy," and I'd never heard of this....). So she may not have ever thought to turn the phone off.

I'm not being disrespectful here, but I've known about cell phone pings ever since I got my first cell phone back in the late 80s. When someone calls into your cell phone, the system has to have a way to know which tower to route that call through. Otherwise, they'd have to broadcast every single call through every single tower in the US. Not feasible.

Frankly, I am surprised that anyone is surprised about cell phone pings. What do you think runs the battery down even if you make no calls at all? If you turn your cell phone all the way off or yank the battery, then call your cell phone number, the system either instantly or almost instantly routes your call either to voicemail or to an automated message saying something like "that phone is not reachable right now."

I'm honestly not trying to be disrespectful, I'm just surprised that there is any adult who doesn't know how cell phones work. I'm one of the least tech savvy people there is and I know! I tend to assume that if I know something tech-ish, everyone knows it.

twzzlrgirl
06-20-2010, 07:44 PM
I'm not being disrespectful here, but I've known about cell phone pings ever since I got my first cell phone back in the late 80s. When someone calls into your cell phone, the system has to have a way to know which tower to route that call through. Otherwise, they'd have to broadcast every single call through every single tower in the US. Not feasible.

Frankly, I am surprised that anyone is surprised about cell phone pings. What do you think runs the battery down even if you make no calls at all? If you turn your cell phone all the way off or yank the battery, then call your cell phone number, the system either instantly or almost instantly routes your call either to voicemail or to an automated message saying something like "that phone is not reachable right now."

I'm honestly not trying to be disrespectful, I'm just surprised that there is any adult who doesn't know how cell phones work. I'm one of the least tech savvy people there is and I know! I tend to assume that if I know something tech-ish, everyone knows it.

Well, first of all: I knew the phone could be traced if a call was made, or if a call came in. I didn't know the cell was "communicating" with the tower through pings even if there was no activity.

Second: Many things "run down" if they are on (my ipod, for example), and it's not running down because it is somehow being traced, but because the act of it being "on" runs down the battery.

Third: I know how cell phones work. I just didn't know they could be traced even if they weren't in use, or if they weren't even on.

debs
06-20-2010, 07:48 PM
Was it confirmed that there:
A) were cell pings on Sauvie Island; and
B) that cell phone belonged to Terri?

GrainneDhu
06-20-2010, 07:53 PM
Am I correct in assuming that a 'Ping' is when a cell phone makes communication with a cell tower?

PSA: if you are going to kill someone, leave the cell at home.

Yes, a cell phone ping is a very short data burst that tells the nearest tower that it (the cell phone) is in the area. Without pings, the cell phone system would be unworkable.

Angel4u2Whisper2
06-20-2010, 08:01 PM
debs I hope this helps.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20395256,00.html

But law enforcement sources, who are not directly involved with the investigation, tell the local newspaper that Horman's story does not match her cell phone records, which reportedly reveal she may have been on nearby Sauvie Island.

Pondering Mind
06-20-2010, 08:06 PM
PS- you have to take the battery out of a phone, not to have it ping, is what I read...

This is true! Until the Caylee case I would never have known that either. If you don't want to be *pinged* the battery has to be out of the phone.

GrainneDhu
06-20-2010, 08:10 PM
But a lot of people do not know this. Not necessarily because they aren't tech-savvy, but because they simply haven't thought about it or read about it. They have a phone they can all people with and don't think about it much beyond that. To chastise people because they don't posess a bit of knowledge that you do is a little over the top. I personally found this post offensive and would hope it's not typical for how posters speak to each other here.

And it's all endless speculation anyway. No one here knows for sure what the info is on the cell phone, "pings" or otherwise. For all we know, there are other ways the cell phone may have tripped her up, IF that is what is being dealt with.

I apologise. My intention was not to chastise but I have clearly failed to communicate my intentions clearly.

I was trying to figure out just how common it is for people not to know about cell phone pings. I was coming from the assumption that knowledge was like knowing about free wi-fi spots: if you have a laptop or smartphone, you know you can find a spot by just roaming around and watching your wi-fi app to see when you get a signal, then you check to see if it is secured, etc.

I was surprised to find out that it is less commonly known among cell phone owners than knowledge of wi-fi is among laptop owners.

Or maybe most laptop owners don't know about wi-fi either?

Uh oh. Now I'm beginning to question my own assumptions. And what it is that I don't know that everyone else knows!

Day Dreamer
06-20-2010, 08:15 PM
I apologise. My intention was not to chastise but I have clearly failed to communicate my intentions clearly.

I was trying to figure out just how common it is for people not to know about cell phone pings. I was coming from the assumption that knowledge was like knowing about free wi-fi spots: if you have a laptop or smartphone, you know you can find a spot by just roaming around and watching your wi-fi app to see when you get a signal, then you check to see if it is secured, etc.

I was surprised to find out that it is less commonly known among cell phone owners than knowledge of wi-fi is among laptop owners.

Or maybe most laptop owners don't know about wi-fi either?

Uh oh. Now I'm beginning to question my own assumptions. And what it is that I don't know that everyone else knows!

I was aware of the pings even if you are not making calls. I was unaware that one would have to actually remove the battery rather than just turning it off. We all learn new things everyday.

I guess the battery dying would have the same effect as removing the battery??

Razzle
06-20-2010, 08:15 PM
This is true! Until the Caylee case I would never have known that either. If you don't want to be *pinged* the battery has to be out of the phone.

I wonder if a cell phone pings every tower it gets within range of or only some of them. I worked for Nextel 8 years ago and I know that there were many times that I had to help people troubleshoot their phones when the underlying issue was that the phone wasn't registering with the tower. A quick power cycle solved the problem, but it makes me wonder if that is still common.

We didn't call them pings at Nextel, but I understand what they are.

grandmaj
06-20-2010, 08:18 PM
Can anyone provide a link for the cell phone pings? Thanks.

I have moved these posts to allow you to discuss cell phone pings in general.

If someone can provide me with a link that there are in fact pings of a cell phone please do. Otherwise the cell phone pings of SM can't be discussed because it is rumor without some verification.

Thanks.

Tzedek
06-20-2010, 08:26 PM
I was aware of the pings even if you are not making calls. I was unaware that one would have to actually remove the battery rather than just turning it off. We all learn new things everyday.

I guess the battery dying would have the same effect as removing the battery??

And I have read information online today that states that cell phones only ping if the phone is on.

So the information out there is not universally known nor agreed upon by everyone.

At least one MSM reported that her phone records do not match her statements. No mention of 'pings' so we don't even know if they are referring to a phone that is on and being used (perhaps she was on the phone saying I am at x, doing y, when the records show she was at z) or what precisely was discovered in the records.

I am sure LE has been verifying the location of all family members for that day, with all tools at their disposal.

GrainneDhu
06-20-2010, 08:34 PM
And I have read information online today that states that cell phones only ping if the phone is on.

So the information out there is not universally known nor agreed upon by everyone.

At least one MSM reported that her phone records do not match her statements. No mention of 'pings' so we don't even know if they are referring to a phone that is on and being used (perhaps she was on the phone saying I am at x, doing y, when the records show she was at z) or what precisely was discovered in the records.

I am sure LE has been verifying the location of all family members for that day, with all tools at their disposal.

What I am wondering is if someone clones your cell phone, does that mess up the ping logs? I think it would because a cloned cell phone imitates the original phone well enough to fool the cell phone company billing system (which is the point of cloning).

Most people discover that their cell phone was cloned as soon as they get the next bill and there are overseas calls for megabucks on there that they never made. But if the cloner didn't run up the bill, there might not be a tip off.

How many people actually go through their bill and check the phone numbers called on it if their cell bill is approximately what they expected? In other words, if you expect a $30 bill and you get a $30 bill, do you go through the phone numbers anyway?

RubyRed
06-20-2010, 08:38 PM
Can anyone provide a link for the cell phone pings? Thanks.

I have moved these posts to allow you to discuss cell phone pings in general.

If someone can provide me with a link that there are in fact pings of a cell phone please do. Otherwise the cell phone pings of SM can't be discussed because it is rumor without some verification.

Thanks.

WW has learned that federal, county and city law-enforcement officials say the reason for the search of Sauvie Island is that cell-phone records reveal Kyron’s step-mother, Terri Moulton Horman, may have been on the island the day he disappeared.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/06/17/sources-search-for-kyron-horman-focuses-on-step-mom-cell-records/

GrainneDhu
06-20-2010, 08:40 PM
Can anyone provide a link for the cell phone pings? Thanks.

I have moved these posts to allow you to discuss cell phone pings in general.

If someone can provide me with a link that there are in fact pings of a cell phone please do. Otherwise the cell phone pings of SM can't be discussed because it is rumor without some verification.

Thanks.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/06/17/sources-search-for-kyron-horman-focuses-on-step-mom-cell-records/


WW has learned that federal, county and city law-enforcement officials say the reason for the search of Sauvie Island is that cell-phone records reveal Kyron’s step-mother, Terri Moulton Horman, may have been on the island the day he disappeared.

If we're not allowed to quote or use the Willamette Week, I apologise. I seem to recall it has been allowed before but now I can't find the thread where permission was given.

grandmaj
06-20-2010, 08:40 PM
Thank you Ruby. So this opens up discussion that perhaps if this story is accurate the SM's cell pinged in that area.

Charlie09
06-20-2010, 08:44 PM
I'm not being disrespectful here, but I've known about cell phone pings ever since I got my first cell phone back in the late 80s. When someone calls into your cell phone, the system has to have a way to know which tower to route that call through. Otherwise, they'd have to broadcast every single call through every single tower in the US. Not feasible.

Frankly, I am surprised that anyone is surprised about cell phone pings. What do you think runs the battery down even if you make no calls at all? If you turn your cell phone all the way off or yank the battery, then call your cell phone number, the system either instantly or almost instantly routes your call either to voicemail or to an automated message saying something like "that phone is not reachable right now."

I'm honestly not trying to be disrespectful, I'm just surprised that there is any adult who doesn't know how cell phones work. I'm one of the least tech savvy people there is and I know! I tend to assume that if I know something tech-ish, everyone knows it.

I see no disrespect here...truthfully, I am fairly tech savvy, I've also sold cell phones in the past. I had no idea how that part of the technology worked. Never occurred to me to ask, and it's never come up in conversations with friends. I just double checked with my cell and took the battery out....something else I didn't know.

RandomThoughts
06-20-2010, 08:48 PM
What about if you are in an area that gets no cell signal? Would it still be possible to get pings from it?

Yabba
06-20-2010, 08:50 PM
New here so forgive me if this has been posted already

Cell phone towers in Portland

http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=portland&state_abr=or

RubyRed
06-20-2010, 08:54 PM
Q. Can investigators go back in time and pinpoint where cell-phone calls are made and received?


A. Not with precision. Cell-provider records reflect which transmission towers nearest each phone were used for the call. Depending on the area, this can narrow the locations down to a few city blocks, but not a particular street corner.


Q. Does carrying a live cell phone give away your location?


A. Yes, though in most cases only roughly: Your cell phone sends out a signal—some call it a “ping;” think of it as a “here I am if you need me!” flare—to the nearest transmission tower. Using more sophisticated methods that measure the phone’s distance from an assortment of nearby towers or from global positioning satellites, companies can locate subscribers’ phones with far greater precision.


Q. Why would they want to do this?


A. The technology was developed for emergency purposes—to help police find people who call 911 but don’t know their location and find people who are missing.


But it also has a law-enforcement application. Investigators with the proper court authorization can track the movements of a cell phone belonging to a suspect, a fugitive or other person of interest. And given how compulsive most of us are about having our phones with us at all times, this method of surveillance is almost as effective as clamping a homing beacon to someone’s leg.


Q. Do police need a warrant before they can track people in this way?


A. Not necessarily. Some judges have insisted on a showing of probable cause, others have used a far looser standard of suspicion because, hey, no one’s forcing you to carry your tracking device—er, cell phone.

Those who are concerned about creeping electronic encroachments on our privacy are understandably alarmed about this and have called for Congressional oversight and updated legislation to restrict the practice.


Q. Can cell-phone providers go back into a person’s “ping history” and find where his cell phone was throughout a specific day, oh, say, about six weeks in the past?


A. No, according to Joe Farren, spokesman for CTIA-The Wireless Association, a cell-phone industry group in Washington. “These pings occur all the time, and there are 250 million wireless subscribers in America. There’s no reason to log such an incredible amount of data, so each ping over-writes the last one.”


But CNET News’ chief political correspondent Declan McCullagh, who has covered this issue extensively, is skeptical: “We know that telecommunications providers keep logs of who you call and who calls you,” he said in an e-mail. “Why would they treat cell-phone tower logs any differently?”

And as McCullagh and electronic-privacy advocates point out, data storage is dirt cheap these days and getting cheaper: If providers aren’t now able to re-create a cell phone’s path through the world, they probably will be able to do so in the near future.

Too late for some, perhaps. But way too soon for most of us.


http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/12/cells-tracking.html

debs
06-20-2010, 09:01 PM
I asked this in another thread, but is more suitable here:

Was it confirmed that there:
A) were cell pings on Sauvie Island; and
B) that cell phone belonged to Terri?

SleuthyGal
06-20-2010, 09:58 PM
It wasn't confirmed by official on-the-record sources, no. But the fact that they have been focusing their water searched on S.I. is not a random thing--you can extrapolate with some precision that they are there because they believe one of their POIs was there that day.

SleuthyGal
06-20-2010, 10:02 PM
Oh, and if you think you're going to commit a crime...you know...if the spirit should overtake you or something, then do yourself a favor and LEAVE YOUR CELL PHONE AT HOME or at least put it somewhere stationary and retrieve it later...not in your car, not on your person and not anywhere near where YOU are. You know...just in case. Because the number of perps who get nailed because their cell phone (even when turned off) shows where they were is pretty high.

In fact, it's one of the pieces of information that shortened the Lacy Peterson "kidnapping" timeline down to about 20 min MAX *and* showed her husband was right by his house at the time of her 'disappearance' (thank goodness).

DidionFan
06-20-2010, 10:04 PM
New here so forgive me if this has been posted already

Cell phone towers in Portland

http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=portland&state_abr=or

I don't see towers on that map for ones in the Skyline or Sauvie's Island area... Maybe I'm reading it wrong? Just curious, there are a bundle in the city/more condensed suburbs (where I live), but Portland gets rural very fast. Seeing Kyron's school is a great example of this. I believe there are only 2 towers in the areas in question. Anyone know how that works, as in how accurate? I am doing beginner research on it, and it seems like with the lack of towers, a ping on Sauvie's may not necessarily mean that cell phone is on Sauvie's Island...

SleuthyGal
06-20-2010, 10:06 PM
Depends on who owns the towers and their signal transmission and strength. Different cell companies use different towers. You can't know from just looking at a map because you have to know who owns it and what territory it covers.

human
06-20-2010, 10:13 PM
I am sure most towers have multiple carriers on them.

animefemme
06-20-2010, 10:20 PM
Plus, GPS might already have been an option if her husbands truck had onstar in his car. I am not sure if they can track it even if it isn't paid for via activation.

My fiance was a mechanic for years, and worked for a local Dodge dealership for part of that time. OnStar is exclusive to GM vehicles, thus no Ford. (not trying to come across as a know-it-all. :crazy: )

Charlie09
06-20-2010, 10:28 PM
I wonder if there was a call with an SI prefix to one of their phones?

DidionFan
06-20-2010, 10:32 PM
I wonder if there was a call with an SI prefix to one of their phones?

The prefix is the same for all Portland/local areas: either 503 or 971....it's actually more local than it looks, and a great place to buy produce, birdwatch, bikeride, etc.

Yabba
06-20-2010, 10:48 PM
I don't see towers on that map for ones in the Skyline or Sauvie's Island area... Maybe I'm reading it wrong? Just curious, there are a bundle in the city/more condensed suburbs (where I live), but Portland gets rural very fast. Seeing Kyron's school is a great example of this. I believe there are only 2 towers in the areas in question. Anyone know how that works, as in how accurate? I am doing beginner research on it, and it seems like with the lack of towers, a ping on Sauvie's may not necessarily mean that cell phone is on Sauvie's Island...

I had to move around the map myself...zooming in and out...but when I found the area between the school(NW Skyline) and Sauvie Island...I only saw 2 towers that her cell phone could have pinged off of. From what I've read elsewhere(not confirmed as I am no expert) her phone could have pinged of either tower from the school. Again...not an expert, just repeating what I read elsewhere

DidionFan
06-20-2010, 10:54 PM
I had to move around the map myself...zooming in and out...but when I found the area between the school(NW Skyline) and Sauvie Island...I only saw 2 towers that her cell phone could have pinged off of. From what I've read elsewhere(not confirmed as I am no expert) her phone could have pinged of either tower from the school. Again...not an expert, just repeating what I read elsewhere

Thank you - and, Help - I've tried zooming - can you capture what you see when you zoom and post that?

I am not saying I have an opinion on this just yet, but it seems likely that, in that area, either cell phone tower could pick up pings due to lack of towers, not necessarily meaning one was on Sauvie's Island...

Yabba
06-20-2010, 11:06 PM
Okay, I'll try..Give me a minute

SmilingSweetly
06-20-2010, 11:08 PM
I just wanted to add that perhaps she has an iPhone, like me. You cannot remove the battery and it has GPS. I also have a program that I can use if my phone is lost that shows me the vicinity that it is in by using GPS. The GPS on my phone is activated anytime I use Google Maps or another program that requires the "Location" feature. It asks you first (if you want to use the "Location" feature), but there is a setting where you can leave it on. I am sure AT&T is able to pull all of that information.

Information on the GPS, etc. is located here: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/42722

Charlie09
06-20-2010, 11:13 PM
The prefix is the same for all Portland/local areas: either 503 or 971....it's actually more local than it looks, and a great place to buy produce, birdwatch, bikeride, etc.

I've lived in Portland and about half my life in Salem. I didn't mean area code, I mean the first three digits of the phone number....it used to be numbers were assigned geographically.

Yabba
06-20-2010, 11:17 PM
Okay...here is the map from the school to Sauvie Island for reference

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=sauvie%20island&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

debs
06-20-2010, 11:22 PM
Okay, and I'm still waiting for some official word that it is Terri's phone that pinged at Sauvie Island.

Yabba
06-20-2010, 11:23 PM
I have print made a print screen of the map area but have no idea how to post it here...any suggestions?

Yabba
06-20-2010, 11:27 PM
Me too debs...my point in posting is that the site I got this from said the cell towers were so few and far between, her phone could have pinged from the school itself

RubyRed
06-20-2010, 11:37 PM
Cellular Triangulation


http://img.lightreading.com/unstrung/2002/05/15069_3.gif


When someone is missing, even this small bit of information can prove useful in determining the approximate location of a device using the updates from the mobile switching center. If the mobile subscriber is still within cell phone range, authorities can track his or her general movement by following the sequence of towers the phone has contacted or pinged. And if the cell phone goes out of range or runs out of battery power, the mobile operator may be able to use the last recorded location before the cell phone either lost its signal or lost power.


But the most useful information for locating people when they are lost comes when someone has initiated or received a call or text message on their phone. Mobile operators keep records of these events for billing purposes in what is known as a call data record, or CDR. And they can go back to these records to get a historical account of the cell phone’s location.


http://www.dailywireless.org/2006/12/08/cellular-triangulation/

debs
06-20-2010, 11:42 PM
I just think it's wrong to speculate it was TERRI'S phone, in general. We have no information to that end.

animefemme
06-20-2010, 11:44 PM
I have print made a print screen of the map area but have no idea how to post it here...any suggestions?

You would upload it to an image-hosting site like Photobucket or Tinypic, then copy and paste the [img] code into a new post here.

RubyRed
06-20-2010, 11:51 PM
I just think it's wrong to speculate it was TERRI'S phone, in general. We have no information to that end.

WW has learned that federal, county and city law-enforcement officials say the reason for the search of Sauvie Island is that cell-phone records reveal Kyron’s step-mother, Terri Moulton Horman, may have been on the island the day he disappeared.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/06/17/sources-search-for-kyron-horman-focuses-on-step-mom-cell-records/

debs
06-20-2010, 11:56 PM
WW has learned that federal, county and city law-enforcement officials say the reason for the search of Sauvie Island is that cell-phone records reveal Kyron’s step-mother, Terri Moulton Horman, may have been on the island the day he disappeared.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/06/17/sources-search-for-kyron-horman-focuses-on-step-mom-cell-records/


That is not enough for me to say that LE in fact identified Terri's phone as pinging there. It could be the 'local gossip' we've seen before, as much as I think the smoke/fire idiom holds true most of the time. I have not, however, seen a retraction of this statement by WW or any walking back of anything by LE, either.

Dee10
06-21-2010, 12:02 AM
That is not enough for me to say that LE in fact identified Terri's phone as pinging there. It could be the 'local gossip' we've seen before, as much as I think the smoke/fire idiom holds true most of the time. I have not, however, seen a retraction of this statement by WW or any walking back of anything by LE, either.

See Post #10 on this thread, People Magazine decided to go with it...not sure if or how they confirm their stories nor the others. Hard to say what is true or not unless it comes directly from LE. LE I don't think will confirm it at all. Personally in regards to the pings, SM & SI, I tend to believe it is true.

sherbetjello
06-21-2010, 02:17 AM
I just wanted to add that perhaps she has an iPhone, like me. You cannot remove the battery and it has GPS. I also have a program that I can use if my phone is lost that shows me the vicinity that it is in by using GPS. The GPS on my phone is activated anytime I use Google Maps or another program that requires the "Location" feature. It asks you first (if you want to use the "Location" feature), but there is a setting where you can leave it on. I am sure AT&T is able to pull all of that information.

Information on the GPS, etc. is located here: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/42722

A lot of current "smart phones" have GPS enabled on them already. You might not know about it, like I have it on my BB (a 2007 model.) It's there, but you have to purchase the application to access it yourself.

In my case, I downloaded Google Maps which enabled that "feature" on my phone.

Also, phones are pinged from their carriers towers; i.e. ATT phones would ping from an ATT tower. HOWEVER, carriers like Boost mobile buy the extra tower space (bandwidth) from all towers in the area.

Or at least, this is what I have been told from many people.

summermood32
06-21-2010, 03:06 AM
Blackberry Phones have GPS and yes they can be tracked. In fact most of your newer phones do. If you take your sim card out and put it in a PDA phone the service provider can tell what phone you are using by the sim card. Your other phones have the chip in the phone itself. Now when people go to buy prepaid phones they will have to be registered soon. To many people use them for things they should not like EX. Drug Sales etc.

Billylee
06-21-2010, 01:28 PM
Someone asked a good question here. If you can't get service out on a cell phone, is it still able to ping a tower?

Does anyone know that answer. (Really has nothing to do with this case, I'm just curious as there are MANY places here in So. Oregon where I can't get out, including my own home sometimes. Lot's of canyons and mountains. ) It would be interesting to know in the event someone was lost.

I am guessing the answer is No, because of what happened to that poor family that was lost in the mountains down here a couple years ago, where he went looking for help and died. I'm sorry, but I can't remember their names. They were from SF.

jadejazzkayla
06-21-2010, 01:42 PM
That is not enough for me to say that LE in fact identified Terri's phone as pinging there. It could be the 'local gossip' we've seen before, as much as I think the smoke/fire idiom holds true most of the time. I have not, however, seen a retraction of this statement by WW or any walking back of anything by LE, either.

LE has not said Terri's phone pinged on SI. unless that happens, i call it a rumor.

MysteryAddict
06-21-2010, 01:43 PM
Couldn't it be possible that a calculating fan of CSI might dispose of a body
close to home and then drive to another location (the island) allowing cell
phone pings to mislead LE?

I don't even own a cell phone, but I do watch CSI.

lynmaree
06-21-2010, 01:53 PM
Just a thought to give another perspective on the cell phone "ping" topic. I live in a border city with a waterway between two COUNTRIES. I have often over the years had to call my cell phone provider to have roaming charges removed simply because my phone "pinged" towers in the border country and was considered as "roaming" when in fact I never left the US. If the towers are within a few miles of each other I dont believe that this can be considered conclusive proof of anything...only another avenue to explore.

AbbieNormal
06-21-2010, 02:56 PM
I'm not being disrespectful here, but I've known about cell phone pings ever since I got my first cell phone back in the late 80s. When someone calls into your cell phone, the system has to have a way to know which tower to route that call through. Otherwise, they'd have to broadcast every single call through every single tower in the US. Not feasible.

Frankly, I am surprised that anyone is surprised about cell phone pings. What do you think runs the battery down even if you make no calls at all? If you turn your cell phone all the way off or yank the battery, then call your cell phone number, the system either instantly or almost instantly routes your call either to voicemail or to an automated message saying something like "that phone is not reachable right now."

I'm honestly not trying to be disrespectful, I'm just surprised that there is any adult who doesn't know how cell phones work. I'm one of the least tech savvy people there is and I know! I tend to assume that if I know something tech-ish, everyone knows it.


IIRC from learning about pings in Drew Peterson case, when you have your phone it is constantly searching for the nearest cell phone tower. Thus emits pings, IIRC.

Are ping records accessible to anyone, or just to LE when they get a subpeona or something? For example if I wanted to see where my phone was pinging (for some reason) on a certain date, could I request ping records from my cell company? Just curious....

abbie

laytonian
06-21-2010, 03:31 PM
Also, phones are pinged from their carriers towers; i.e. ATT phones would ping from an ATT tower. HOWEVER, carriers like Boost mobile buy the extra tower space (bandwidth) from all towers in the area.

Or at least, this is what I have been told from many people.

What we're finding in the Steven Koecher case, is that cellphones CAN hit other companies' towers - even in a city like Las Vegas.

We know the "tower names" of the towers that his cellphone hit, BUT when we search AT&T's lists - not all of the tower names appear there.

There's many generic towers owned by companies that share bandwidth, so it would take knowledge of all of those companies' tower names, to adequate trace things -- and we don't even know if the phone signal didn't just bounce around the LV valley (as some techies have told us).

laytonian
06-21-2010, 03:33 PM
New here so forgive me if this has been posted already

Cell phone towers in Portland

http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=portland&state_abr=or

We've used that and similar sites in the Koecher case, and like it says on that page, not all towers are shown because not all are registered.

"The FCC does not require every antenna structure to be registered, and the map may or may not list all the towers in the area. Additionally, many carriers have sold their tower assets to third party companies, and leasing agreements are unknown. If this is the case, the best way to determine carrier coverage is by reading comments in the local area."

RubyRed
06-21-2010, 03:37 PM
Someone asked a good question here. If you can't get service out on a cell phone, is it still able to ping a tower?

Does anyone know that answer. (Really has nothing to do with this case, I'm just curious as there are MANY places here in So. Oregon where I can't get out, including my own home sometimes. Lot's of canyons and mountains. ) It would be interesting to know in the event someone was lost.

I am guessing the answer is No, because of what happened to that poor family that was lost in the mountains down here a couple years ago, where he went looking for help and died. I'm sorry, but I can't remember their names. They were from SF.

The Kim family, this article tells how a cell ping briefly connected to a tower, even though they had no cell service.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/06/national/main2232874.shtml

CN2Souls
06-21-2010, 03:42 PM
Anyone know what the cell phone carrier was that TH had? I can tell you in a heartbeat distance and towers that could be hit.

believe09
06-21-2010, 03:47 PM
You guys may have seen something like this, but I found a map of cell towers for the State of WA:
http://www.celltowerinfo.com/picts/Cell%20Tower%20Location%20Map-%20Washington.jpg

It may or may not help-just wanted to get it posted...

sherbetjello
06-21-2010, 03:50 PM
The Kim family, this article tells how a cell ping briefly connected to a tower, even though they had no cell service.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/06/national/main2232874.shtml

"According to one of two cell phone engineers who honed in on the Kims, the chance of the split-second signal making it through the rugged mountains was "very slim.""

It would ping, if it could, from the last STRONGEST service providers tower.
Generally there is an issue with reception in the mountains. I know I have my fair share of it here where I am at. The signals become obscured by the mountains, and such.

If the pings did drop out it could do this in a heavily wooded area, but that really depends on how strong the providers signals are.
I am sure there is a way to find out what the weakest/strongest providers in Oregon areas are.

If someone was able to do that, or had the time (I have a chapter to read for class + my child is on vacation).. you could probably find the weakest/strongest providers then cross reference the towers in the area, and where the reception is.
You might have to do an entire list of providers to towers, i.e. Verizon = strongest. Towers = here, here and here.

Probably a huge task, could be worth it though.

believe09
06-21-2010, 03:54 PM
You guys may have seen something like this, but I found a map of cell towers for the State of WA:
http://www.celltowerinfo.com/picts/Cell%20Tower%20Location%20Map-%20Washington.jpg

It may or may not help-just wanted to get it posted...

No one wants to call me out of the fact that he was missing in Oregon??? LOL, brb ooooppppssss

believe09
06-21-2010, 03:54 PM
Oregon cell phone towers...
http://www.celltowerinfo.com/picts/Cell%20Tower%20Location%20Map-%20Oregon.jpg

sherbetjello
06-21-2010, 03:57 PM
Oregon cell phone towers...
http://www.celltowerinfo.com/picts/Cell%20Tower%20Location%20Map-%20Oregon.jpg

I totally missed that in your first post, so thank you for the correction.
Nice looking out.

Also, that map is from 2005, there could be multiple new towers in that area by now. I would assume.

TopTop
06-21-2010, 04:14 PM
The Kim family, this article tells how a cell ping briefly connected to a tower, even though they had no cell service.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/06/national/main2232874.shtml

Technically you do have to have service...it's just that the service may be so brief that you do not have time to actually make a call. It may still be enough time for the phone to register to a tower. You can not ping if there is absolutely no service 100%.

CaringCitizen
06-21-2010, 05:06 PM
LE has not said Terri's phone pinged on SI. unless that happens, i call it a rumor.

Uh-oh, if that's the criteria set (that LE has to have divulged or corroborated something) then practically nothing about this case is known then.

The following (in your mind by your standard) would all be rumors:

Carol Moulton is Terri's mom
Terri has a friend name Jaymie
Terri has a son from a previous marriage
Terri has an arrest for DUI while driving with her son from a previous marriage
Terri's son from a previous marriage lives with his grandparents
Terri was married to Kaine Horman in Hawaii in 2007
Kaine works for a company named Intel
Terri and Kaine have a daughter
Terri has a FB account
Terri went to a gym a few days after Kyron went missing and walked away from a reporter
Desiree was ill at the time she and Kaine divorced and figured out custody
Desiree lives in Medford, Oregon


I could list dozens and dozens more like this. Are you sure you want to classify everything as a rumor just because it didn't come from LE?

sherbetjello
06-21-2010, 05:09 PM
Uh-oh, if that's the criteria set (that LE has to have divulged or corroborated something) then practically nothing about this case is known then.

The following (in your mind by your standard) would all be rumors:
...
I could list dozens and dozens more like this. Are you sure you want to classify everything as a rumor just because it didn't come from LE?

Finding out where/when a phone pinged is NOT something that the public could get access too. That is something at LE and FBI would have to ask for from the cell phone carrier, and sometimes acquiring those is a pain in the butt.

I agree, this is probably a rumor.

CaringCitizen
06-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Okay...here is the map from the school to Sauvie Island for reference

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=sauvie%20island&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Hi - one thing to keep in mind when you have a map from the school to "Sauvie Island". Sauvie is quite large. Your map, for example, traces the path from the school to the middle of Sturgeon Lake.

Had you made your map from the school to the southern portion of Sauvie, you'd find it to be a lot closer in mileage. The drive from the school to a southern Sauvie area (such as near Kruger's Farm Market), is closer, for example.

I have no idea where on Sauvie Island Kyron might be (if he is there) but it isn't necessarily the map you have shown here. FWIW.

Thanks for posting it for others though as the general vicinity is still accurate (in terms of where Sauvie Island is relative to Skyline Elementary).

SleuthyGal
06-21-2010, 05:21 PM
Are ping records accessible to anyone, or just to LE when they get a subpeona or something?

Just to LE and usually a subpoena is required.



Couldn't it be possible that a calculating fan of CSI might dispose of a body close to home and then drive to another location (the island) allowing cell phone pings to mislead LE?

Sure they could, but if they had their phone w/them as they went home (assuming they disposed of the body first then went to S.I.) the different cell towers used will show they went to their home area. (Unless they were savvy enough to remove the battery or leave the phone somewhere and pick it up later).

Most people aren't that clever or that knowledgeable about cell phone technology.

CaringCitizen
06-21-2010, 05:24 PM
Finding out where/when a phone pinged is NOT something that the public could get access too. That is something at LE and FBI would have to ask for from the cell phone carrier, and sometimes acquiring those is a pain in the butt.

I agree, this is probably a rumor.

I think you missed my point. All of the things I listed were things found out through media and public records (and none corroborated by LE).

The ping information is also coming from media. And not just any media, but actually the investigative-award winning Willamette Week. It's been our local paper for over 35 years.

Had WW said their sources "assumed or thought" pings must have been discovered on Sauvie, then I wouldn't give it any credence yet. But they didn't say it that way. They said their sources knew the pings existed.

Many days has passed and the editor of WW has not retracted that reporters work. WW is not some fly by night rag that wants to stimulate false rumors or mimic a gossip/gawker type 'paper', online or otherwise.

Just something for everyone to consider; these are my opinions.

Angel4u2Whisper2
06-21-2010, 06:34 PM
debs I hope this helps.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20395256,00.html

But law enforcement sources, who are not directly involved with the investigation, tell the local newspaper that Horman's story does not match her cell phone records, which reportedly reveal she may have been on nearby Sauvie Island.

Quoted myself to assist those asking about the cell phone being on SI.

believe09
06-21-2010, 07:17 PM
I wonder if the Sauvie Island Towers ping phones that are on the island only?

Billylee
06-21-2010, 07:53 PM
The Kim family, this article tells how a cell ping briefly connected to a tower, even though they had no cell service.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/06/national/main2232874.shtml

Thanks for that, Ruby. Reading that story again, just breaks my heart. So, it was actually their cell that got the family found. I had forgotten that. Interesting.

If we go into the mountains around here, like hunting or geocaching, we do take our GPS and a cell. But we always, take a map, a good ol' compass, food and water and matches. Standard glove box supplies! It is sooooo easy to get lost in the woods in OR.

Emma Peel
06-22-2010, 01:56 AM
Was Terri at school when she said she was? And...what about the Sauvie Island ping?

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpps/news/stepmom-probed-in-ore-boys-disappearance-dpgonc-20100618-mh_8191339


Horman’s cell phone records contradicted the story she was telling investigators -- that she watched Kyron go to his classroom after attending his elementary school science fair.

The records revealed that she may have been on Sauvie Island, about five miles away from the school, according to the Willamette Week.

seekingjustice**
06-22-2010, 02:16 AM
Was Terri at school when she said she was? And...what about the Sauvie Island ping?

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpps/news/stepmom-probed-in-ore-boys-disappearance-dpgonc-20100618-mh_8191339

Good question Emma Peel. Terri said she waved Kyron off at 8.45am. So, hypothetically speaking here, maybe her cell pinged at Sauvie Island around 8.45am. Did she leave the school earlier than she said she did?

Emma Peel
06-22-2010, 02:32 AM
Good question Emma Peel. Terri said she waved Kyron off at 8.45am. So, hypothetically speaking here, maybe her cell pinged at Sauvie Island around 8.45am. Did she leave the school earlier than she said she did?

Yup it's something to chew on. But not for me right now - bedtime for me. I just wanted to leave the story in the thread. I posted it after getting clearance from Grandmaj & Kimster. So we can discuss the ping stories that have been out there for days if we want... I'll be sleeping on it! For me it might be a game-changer.

DidionFan
06-22-2010, 02:37 AM
I think you missed my point. All of the things I listed were things found out through media and public records (and none corroborated by LE).

The ping information is also coming from media. And not just any media, but actually the investigative-award winning Willamette Week. It's been our local paper for over 35 years.

Had WW said their sources "assumed or thought" pings must have been discovered on Sauvie, then I wouldn't give it any credence yet. But they didn't say it that way. They said their sources knew the pings existed.

Many days has passed and the editor of WW has not retracted that reporters work. WW is not some fly by night rag that wants to stimulate false rumors or mimic a gossip/gawker type 'paper', online or otherwise.

Just something for everyone to consider; these are my opinions.

Pinging. We have received info from a credible publication (WW - I also live here and know the journalist and the weekly, it's reliable, though I must say it was risky - and slightly journalese-ish - to publish the article when mainstream media is respectfully staying their distance) that sources told them TH's cell phone pings "may be traced" traced to Sauvie's Island.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/06/17/sources-search-for-kyron-horman-focuses-on-step-mom-cell-records/

That said, way early on, there was an awesome post by an WS member of the cell towers. 2, in total if I recall, for an area that leaves the city real fast to become rural real quick. It's still a little spotty to plain assume that a ping from Sauvie's Island means someone is on the Island. If heading downhill from the school, she could be in that range. I live downtown, and If I walk in my studio apartment from the living room to my dining nook, my phone drops. I think pings can be difficult at this time to use straight as evidence as being on the Island, but enough to speculate as possible.

Not trying to defend, promise!! Just, I am trying to understand the local region's cell reception in this thread. I know I can't seem to be able to text anyone easily when I'm on Sauvie's Island. Apparently, towers can pick up signals and pings and compensate when other towerss are busy. It's just not definite.

LE may have additional reasons to be looking where they are though, and the ping could be supporting reasoning.

On that note - Does anyone have a snapshot of the 2 towers in or around the Skyline area? I am still very much hoping to see this.

DidionFan
06-22-2010, 02:44 AM
I wonder if the Sauvie Island Towers ping phones that are on the island only?

My understanding is that they do not, but I am technologically uneducated. I am trying to look into this for fairness sake. I do know St. Helens, St. Helens Rd., and Highway 30, border Sauvie's I for a while - It's not as large as it appears - and it is not very populated with residences. But there are a lot of industrial plants, small communities and home owners smattered along the other side of the river bordering it.

The need for towers lessens in the areas for Skyline and Sauvie's Island, and I think it stands within reason to wonder where pings originate and how far they stretch out. A large area with small number of users and 2 towers mean they could share pings.....

DidionFan
06-22-2010, 02:50 AM
Was Terri at school when she said she was? And...what about the Sauvie Island ping?

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpps/news/stepmom-probed-in-ore-boys-disappearance-dpgonc-20100618-mh_8191339

If we can look at the towers maps again, find them - hint hint - who posted them? - for Skyline Elem and Sauvie's Island, we can get a better look at the plausibility of a ping from SI while TH was still at Skyline or nearby....my understanding is that there are only 2 towers in that area that pick up strong reception. Even going from the school to her residence may lean her ping towards SI vs. the other one.

Looking for link to post!!

MBLover
06-22-2010, 08:02 AM
I know that on several occasions my cell phone has been routed thru towers 45+ minutes away from me because it showed on my bill that the calls "were made from" an area of VA that I wasn't in.

When I called my provider I asked them why calls were showing from my cell phone in another county, several counties away. They told me the towers closest to me were too busy to handle my call, so it was routed to the next available tower. I asked them, why so far away. They told me that it could have been a high volume time of calling and/or some towers just may not have been available/working.

So while I wasn't 4 counties away and I was home, someone would have thought that I was elsewhere because of what was showing on my cell phone bill. So while it's very possible that TH was on SI, it's also a possibility she was close by SI...or maybe she wasn't.

cluciano63
06-22-2010, 08:28 AM
I sure hope this case does not come down to these cell phone pings, if they are suddenly so unreliable...this (cell pings) was one thing I believed in, as far as use in court, but if they can't be trusted, that could change/challenge a lot of cases. I wonder if it is something that could even spark appeals.

Wondergirl
06-22-2010, 09:43 AM
I sure hope this case does not come down to these cell phone pings, if they are suddenly so unreliable...this (cell pings) was one thing I believed in, as far as use in court, but if they can't be trusted, that could change/challenge a lot of cases. I wonder if it is something that could even spark appeals.

Good point. I think that cell phone pings would be treated like any other evidence, and would be used in conjunction WITH the other evidence to build a case.

It sounds as if there alot of variables with the pings, and thank-you to everyone here for the information on the subject.

SleuthyGal
06-22-2010, 10:49 AM
I sure hope this case does not come down to these cell phone pings, if they are suddenly so unreliable...this (cell pings) was one thing I believed in, as far as use in court, but if they can't be trusted, that could change/challenge a lot of cases. I wonder if it is something that could even spark appeals.

Cell pings aren't unreliable...they were never that exact to begin with. Info obtained from cell pings is a useful tool that can be used in some cases. It doesn't work in ALL cases. But it's only one piece of information. By itself it usually doesn't make a prosecution case, though it can help to show a suspect is somewhere other than where they claim to have been at the time of the crime. This is wholly dependent upon different cell towers being accessed by the phone.

In the Scott Peterson case, as I said earlier in a prior post, getting ping data from SP's phone worked to decrease the timeline for the "abduction" of Lacy Peterson because he claimed he was somewhere else at the time she disappeared and the ping data showed he was close to his house, based on the cell tower being utilized by his phone at that exact time.

But as an example of how it might not help: in my area a husband will be on trial this fall for murdering his wife. There are a couple phone calls he made and received while going back 'n forth to a local grocery store, running errands for the wife (at 6:30am). The wife was already dead and dumped before those trips to the store. But the same cell tower services both his home and that grocery store, so the ping data doesn't tell LE anything definitive about exactly where he was at the time of the calls.

Ping data off the cell tower in and of itself doesn't tell LE the exact spot you're standing in when your phone is using that tower (unless you are utilizing a GPS function of your phone in which lat & long is being broadcast). It tells them the area your phone is in.

tragco
10-12-2010, 03:59 PM
(All below assumes a cellphone with no GPS tracking; I am assuming this because the searches are said to have been prompted by cell phone pings, and the search locations are all around the island. IMO, if her phone had GPS they would search in a different way)

http://searchengineland.com/cell-phone-triangulation-accuracy-is-all-over-the-map-14790 (http://searchengineland.com/cell-phone-triangulation-accuracy-is-all-over-the-map-14790)

Ok, I have been reading about locating a person via cell phone pings. Cell phones are pinging whether you are using them or not. To get a really close location, you need three towers in the vicinity. (Thus the "cell phone triangulation").

For example: I have only 1 cell tower with a 4 mile radius. A ping can only indicate I am somewhere in that radius. Now, I have 2 cell towers. If they are far apart and their circles are seperate, it's just like having 1 tower. If, however their circles join, and both towers pick up the ping, then I am somewhere in the location where they both have signal. If I have three towers that ping me, now I can get REALLY close to the location- it's somewhere that all three join up. It's easier to see if you scroll down and look at the three circles in the above link.

Then there is the issue of whether or not the cellphone antenna is a directional antenna. If you have two towers that intersect WITH directional antennae, then the entire intersecting area doesn't have to be covered. This is also shown in the link, with two circles and the direction being represented.

What I would like to know is this: As you enter and go deeper into Sauvie, where are the cellphone towers and what is their radius? Are they using omnidirectional or directional antennae? I want to know how close one can actually come to pinpointing that someone is on that island by cell pings.

Guess the only way to do that is to start googling the towers and their reception circles and map it out. If I ever get it all figured out I will post. I'm kind of hoping someone else here might have a map of all the local towers and their corresponding radii. :)

Here's a snippet of the article:

However, there are many places where there are fewer cell towers available, such as in the fringes of the cities and out in the country. If you have fewer than three cell towers available, pinpointing a mobile device can become a lot less precise. In cities where there are a lot more vertical structures which can be barriers to cell phone broadcasting and receiving, there have to be many more cell towers distributed in order to have good service. In the countryside, there are relatively fewer cell towers and a phone’s signal may be picked up only by a single one at much greater distance.
Those areas where a phone is only getting picked up by a single tower, and if it’s equipped with only omnidirectional antennae, the accuracy becomes even less.

Billylee
10-12-2010, 04:16 PM
Tragco,
Go to my post #168 in the MCSO searches SI again thread, you will see the cell tower info on the area and there's another site you can use called antennasearch.com.

Chili Fries
10-12-2010, 04:46 PM
In this picture (which wasn't taken by me) you can see what appear to be 3 cellphone towers. The towers are in the center of the picture, behind the stop sign:

http://s1004.photobucket.com/albums/af163/synpodcast/?action=view&current=IMG_1731.jpg

This picture was taken on Sauvie Island, just over the bridge. The towers are southeast of the island, and are across the river. Cellreception.com shows two towers at about that location. There is a power station near the towers but I don't believe they are related to it. I did find them on Google Street View at one point. Whether Terri's phone would ping off one, two or all three towers if it were in that location I don't know but there are line-of-sight towers in the area.

loves2bmom
10-12-2010, 04:59 PM
I asked this in another thread, but is more suitable here:

Was it confirmed that there:
A) were cell pings on Sauvie Island; and
B) that cell phone belonged to Terri?

Define "confirmed" LOL! Just kidding!

I believe it's one of the family of sources....since LE has not really confirmed much of anything publicly! KOIN did talk about a resident seeing a white truck on Sauvie the day Kyron went missing. Have to rewind my tape and see if they also say pings. Still...I think you'll find everything comes back to the WW story. ;)

ETA: Just rewound the tape and KOIN says "there are also published reports that say her cell phone sent out a signal from the island the day he disappeared'
Again....I think they are referring to the WW story.

BeanE
10-12-2010, 05:11 PM
Define "confirmed" LOL! Just kidding!

I believe it's one of the family of sources....since LE has not really confirmed much of anything publicly! KOIN did talk about a resident seeing a white truck on Sauvie the day Kyron went missing. Have to rewind my tape and see if they also say pings. Still...I think you'll find everything comes back to the WW story. ;)

ETA: Just rewound the tape and KOIN says "there are also published reports that say her cell phone sent out a signal from the island the day he disappeared'
Again....I think they are referring to the WW story.

Perhaps Calliope will come along and be kind enough to recap again the whisper-down-the-lane string of sources, none of whom are involved in the case, from whom that info came.


Then we have in the 25 minute audio interview with the Oregonian where Desiree says that Terri said that LE told her a ping from her phone didn't match. Which could, of course, have simply been LE trying to get more info from Terri.

loves2bmom
10-12-2010, 05:14 PM
Perhaps Calliope will come along and be kind enough to recap again the whisper-down-the-lane string of sources, none of whom are involved in the case, from whom that info came.


Then we have in the 25 minute audio interview with the Oregonian where Desiree says that Terri said that LE told her a ping from her phone didn't match. Which could, of course, have simply been LE trying to get more info from Terri.

Right! And that coupled with the eye witness(es) that saw a white pickup on the island that morning...maybe that's as close to confirmed as we're going to get. :confused:

BeanE
10-12-2010, 05:16 PM
Right! And that coupled with the eye witness(es) that saw a white pickup on the island that morning...maybe that's as close to confirmed as we're going to get. :confused:

The Horman truck? Or just a generic white pickup?

loves2bmom
10-12-2010, 05:28 PM
The Horman truck? Or just a generic white pickup?

I believe they said a truck similar to this one and showed the Horman truck. Want me to record it and upload? It's not much more than that though....

BeanE
10-12-2010, 05:38 PM
I believe they said a truck similar to this one and showed the Horman truck. Want me to record it and upload? It's not much more than that though....

No, no need to record and upload on my account. Thank you, loves2b. :)

tragco
10-12-2010, 06:01 PM
Perhaps Calliope will come along and be kind enough to recap again the whisper-down-the-lane string of sources, none of whom are involved in the case, from whom that info came.


Then we have in the 25 minute audio interview with the Oregonian where Desiree says that Terri said that LE told her a ping from her phone didn't match. Which could, of course, have simply been LE trying to get more info from Terri.

Thank you so much BillyLee and Chilifries! That is helping me get the info :blowkiss: . I am just now going to view.

BeanE, that's kind of what I am trying to figure out. Are these searches really able to be related to cell phone pings exclusively or is there some other information out there we don't know about? If I can find where two towers radii intersect and they are searching only those areas, well that would tend to support the ping theory.

If I find the areas being searched aren't really a match with cell towers, then there's something else LE has that we don't know.

It's probably not that much, just finding out if the cell pings are really the source of the search, but it gives me something to look into while I wait.

funknut
10-13-2010, 02:10 PM
I'm sure someone has mentioned before that it's not unusual to hop to a far away tower. I recently pinged on Canadian cell towers from the San Juan Islands in State of Washington. I knew because the provider said "ROGERS" on my phone (a Canadian cell provider).

I live in Portland, but I haven't done any research in the Skyline area about the cell towers. If someone were really gung-ho about sleuthing this one, they could enable a feature, or install an app on their cellphone that shows detailed signal strength, e.g. exact signal strength in dB. Drive around the area and figure out thee or four positions where the signals are strongest, then figure out when it hops to a new tower while driving towards the Sauvie Island area. If you're still in Skyline at the time it drops, and the signal steadily increases while heading towards Sauvie Island, you can presume that you've hopped to a Sauvie tower. Has anyone done any tests like that?

ThoughtFox
10-13-2010, 06:32 PM
What about if you are in an area that gets no cell signal? Would it still be possible to get pings from it?

Someone else might have already answered this question, but I'll have a go at it.

I learned about cell phone pings during the Laci Peterson case, in which Scott Peterson's cell phone pings confirmed that on many occasions he was lying about his whereabouts. Sometimes there were even transcripts of taped calls that confirmed he was saying he was in one place when really he was in another location.

Someone looked up a bunch of information about how cell phone towers worked, and we discovered that the towers "call out" to the phones that are in the area.

Around that same time, my teenage daughter had a cell phone that she earned for being a youth teen member of the local school board. It was our family's first cellphone, so I paid attention to where the phone seemed to "ping" from a tower.

We noticed that one place in the mountains the phone would lose a signal, then suddenly come back to life as we neared a certain ridge with a tower. Sometimes the phone would actually "ping" or make a noise.

So yes, you don't really "ping" if you are in between towers, but as you drive along, the next tower will definitely pick up the signal.

And as I understand it, newer phones also have longitude and latitude capabilities, so they are more like GPS trackers, which is how they find people who are lost just by using their cell phone signals.

ThoughtFox
10-13-2010, 06:35 PM
Perhaps Calliope will come along and be kind enough to recap again the whisper-down-the-lane string of sources, none of whom are involved in the case, from whom that info came.


Then we have in the 25 minute audio interview with the Oregonian where Desiree says that Terri said that LE told her a ping from her phone didn't match. Which could, of course, have simply been LE trying to get more info from Terri.

To me, Desiree wasn't talking about which tower on Sauvie Island might have pinged that day, but the fact that TH was lying about where she was.

That is the value of cell phone pings - not to determine exact whereabouts, but to show a pattern of lying by a person of interest. JMO

BeanE
10-13-2010, 07:23 PM
To me, Desiree wasn't talking about which tower on Sauvie Island might have pinged that day, but the fact that TH was lying about where she was.

That is the value of cell phone pings - not to determine exact whereabouts, but to show a pattern of lying by a person of interest. JMO

Yes, you're right that Desiree never mentioned Sauvie, or any specific location.

I agree that Desiree was likely trying to imply that Terri was lying.

I look forward to finding out if LE did tell Terri that, if they were telling the truth, and if the ping put Terri in a place other than where she said she was.

Tink56
10-13-2010, 08:46 PM
If the linked article is correct, some of the expert sleuthers in the Portland area who have the "right" phones (Blackberry or .....) could download an app and drive over to Suavie Island and see which towers are triangulating.

FWIW...

http://techcrunch.com/2007/11/28/google-mobile-maps-pinpoints-your-location-without-gps/

rnmif
10-13-2010, 10:45 PM
Anyone with no tech skills and a google android phone can see in plain english where the phone thinks they are.

I posted on some other thread that when I was in Cathlamet about 5-10 miles inland from the Columbia, it thought I was 20 miles away in Clatskanie. That is as the crow flies. It would take me at least an hour, maybe two and a ferry ride to get from one place to the other.

Someone else mentioned when one tower is down or overloaded, the phones will use another local tower to triangulate your position. If you have a smart phone and use the map/my location feature, you can see how this works. I have had it (city or rural) pinpoint my location within 5 meters, 50 meters, or 1500 meters....

I seem to recall coming across cel tower information, and it seemed like if TH was driving Hwy 30, she'd triangulate off the Sauvie Island tower anyway.... Apparently the cel tower information is public record....

Chili Fries
10-14-2010, 02:42 AM
I seem to recall coming across cel tower information, and it seemed like if TH was driving Hwy 30, she'd triangulate off the Sauvie Island tower anyway.... Apparently the cel tower information is public record....

On a related note...for some reason I remember info that purportedly came from Terri in which she said police told her she had been driving on Highway 30 that morning. I seem to remember thinking that the way it was worded implied her story was that she was not near that area. But I can't find that info anywhere. I thought it was in Terri's e-mails which were made public on August 9th but I just re-watched that KATU story and it's not there. Any help finding this info would be appreciated, maybe I'm just imagining it.

tragco
10-14-2010, 03:15 AM
On a related note...for some reason I remember info that purportedly came from Terri in which she said police told her she had been driving on Highway 30 that morning. I seem to remember thinking that the way it was worded implied her story was that she was not near that area. But I can't find that info anywhere. I thought it was in Terri's e-mails which were made public on August 9th but I just re-watched that KATU story and it's not there. Any help finding this info would be appreciated, maybe I'm just imagining it.

http://www.koinlocal6.com/mostpopular/story/Terri-wants-money-to-move-out-Kyron-Horman/Dz4uMChK60KCWjy3W5FG4Q.cspx?p=10 (http://www.koinlocal6.com/mostpopular/story/Terri-wants-money-to-move-out-Kyron-Horman/Dz4uMChK60KCWjy3W5FG4Q.cspx?p=10)

If you scroll down, this is where the "Chas" gentleman says he saw Terri on Highway 30 that day. Could that be what you are remembering?

http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm (http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm)

ETA: Also found this: I scrolled way down on the MCSO site and they were asking for any video along Highway 30 from Northwest Rock Point to Germantown Road.

BeanE
10-14-2010, 05:24 AM
I seem to recall coming across cel tower information, and it seemed like if TH was driving Hwy 30, she'd triangulate off the Sauvie Island tower anyway.... Apparently the cel tower information is public record....

I remember that too. Just woke up and haven't had coffee yet. Give me a bit and I'll try to remember where I saw it - it was somewhere in the depths of this forum - and I'll see if I can track it down.

Chili Fries
10-14-2010, 09:24 AM
http://www.koinlocal6.com/mostpopular/story/Terri-wants-money-to-move-out-Kyron-Horman/Dz4uMChK60KCWjy3W5FG4Q.cspx?p=10 (http://www.koinlocal6.com/mostpopular/story/Terri-wants-money-to-move-out-Kyron-Horman/Dz4uMChK60KCWjy3W5FG4Q.cspx?p=10)

If you scroll down, this is where the "Chas" gentleman says he saw Terri on Highway 30 that day. Could that be what you are remembering?

http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm (http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm)

ETA: Also found this: I scrolled way down on the MCSO site and they were asking for any video along Highway 30 from Northwest Rock Point to Germantown Road.
Thanks but it's neither of those, I remember that stuff. What I'm talking about is info that Terri said (most likely in an e-mail) something like..."they're saying I was driving on Highway 30". Maybe I am imagining it.

Calliope
10-14-2010, 10:34 AM
Thanks but it's neither of those, I remember that stuff. What I'm talking about is info that Terri said (most likely in an e-mail) something like..."they're saying I was driving on Highway 30". Maybe I am imagining it.

IIRC, it was something along the lines of, "They're saying I was somewhere I wasn't." I'm not sure I've seen where she mentioned any specific route or highway.


I'll poke around and see what I can find.

Bluestars
10-14-2010, 10:47 AM
I believe Terri stated in an e-mail to her friend that she was driving along Hwy 30 on June 4th.

BeanE
10-14-2010, 11:01 AM
I believe Terri stated in an e-mail to her friend that she was driving along Hwy 30 on June 4th.

Does anyone have a link to this? I don't recall her saying anything about Highway 30, and I don't see it in any of my transcriptions of her emails.

TIA



Typed up Terri's email excerpts up from what is shown on the screen in this video:
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html?tab=video

Emails sent on June 5
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html?

Screenshot 1:
The teacher thought I said I was going to take Kyron with K**** for a doctor’s appt. I said I was going to look at other exhibits – how do you mess that up? His coat and backpack were still at school. I left the school at 9 and he was seen with a man “chaperone” and 2 girls after I left. There were no men on the chaperone list. That and it was highly chaotic – had to have been 300 people running around – no coordination…”

Screenshot 2:
I didn’t just drop him off, I spent time with him, took pictures and he was in safe hands I thought as I watched him walk down the hall. Kids saw him after I left. Teacher put him as absent at 10am. Someplace between 9-10 is when we think it happened. I have a receipt showing I was checked out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am. I went to another FM looking for meds for K**** they didn’t have at the first FM. Then I was trying to get K**** to...

Screenshot 3:
...sleep in the truck for a few minutes, but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20. Out at 12:20. Home at 12:45. Kaine home at 2. Bus at 3:30. That was my day – they keep asking me. Now on my 5th interview with them…

Screenshot 4:
The past 2 weeks he’s been acting really weird. Staring off into space. Can’t remember anything. Walks into the room and then back out, stopping to stare and then move on. The doc thinks he is having mini seizures and I made an appt. on Thursday for the next Friday to have him checked out.

Bluestars
10-14-2010, 11:06 AM
Bean, I will try to find it.

Bluestars
10-14-2010, 11:16 AM
Video 4.13

http://www.kptv.com/news/24581546/detail.html

I was talking to her in general, just to say, "How are you, anyway I can help I will, etc." And she ended up telling me about how they are still very focused on Sauvie Island and telling me that she was driving down Highway 30 on the day Kyron disappeared, etc but she doesn’t know why they are focusing on the Island, I don’t know, it is all weird. Where is the boy?

Not looking so good for Terri, is it. Terri called me this afternoon a couple of hours after I talked to Kaine. Said she was having a bad day - that she & Kaine had a fight. She was driving. Then said she noticed a Detective following her and had to go.

Chili Fries
10-14-2010, 11:36 AM
Video 4.13

http://www.kptv.com/news/24581546/detail.html

I was talking to her in general, just to say, "How are you, anyway I can help I will, etc." And she ended up telling me about how they are still very focused on Sauvie Island and telling me that she was driving down Highway 30 on the day Kyron disappeared, etc but she doesn’t know why they are focusing on the Island, I don’t know, it is all weird. Where is the boy?

Not looking so good for Terri, is it. Terri called me this afternoon a couple of hours after I talked to Kaine. Said she was having a bad day - that she & Kaine had a fight. She was driving. Then said she noticed a Detective following her and had to go.

Thank you. I wasn't correct on the detail, seems like Terri does confirm that her account includes Highway 30, but I knew somewhere in my brain there was the memory of that e-mail.

BeanE
10-14-2010, 11:43 AM
Video 4.13

http://www.kptv.com/news/24581546/detail.html

I was talking to her in general, just to say, "How are you, anyway I can help I will, etc." And she ended up telling me about how they are still very focused on Sauvie Island and telling me that she was driving down Highway 30 on the day Kyron disappeared, etc but she doesn’t know why they are focusing on the Island, I don’t know, it is all weird. Where is the boy?

Not looking so good for Terri, is it. Terri called me this afternoon a couple of hours after I talked to Kaine. Said she was having a bad day - that she & Kaine had a fight. She was driving. Then said she noticed a Detective following her and had to go.

Thank you so much for finding that, Bluestars!

:blowkiss:

SurfieTX
10-14-2010, 11:49 AM
Video 4.13

http://www.kptv.com/news/24581546/detail.html

Terri called me this afternoon a couple of hours after I talked to Kaine. Said she was having a bad day - that she & Kaine had a fight. She was driving. Then said she noticed a Detective following her and had to go.

Looks like Terri had a habit of talking on her cell while driving. Just wanted to point that out.

Chili Fries
10-14-2010, 11:52 AM
Just goes back to the question of what exactly the discrepancies are in Terri's story. I wondered before if, with the possibility of the cell pings being central to the case, that trying it could involve seriously technical testimonies about just how accurate that ping data is. The DA may not feel very confident about this argument swaying a jury, even if LE feels confident about the accuracy of the data. Of course there is also the issue of the reported bank records discrepancy and the possibility that Terri changed her story somehow during questioning. Still, if she did say from the get-go that she was on Highway 30 being that close to Sauvie could easily muddy up the cell ping accuracy issue. This stuff could easily fit into LE getting very serious about searching Sauvie again.

BeanE
10-14-2010, 11:57 AM
I seem to recall coming across cel tower information, and it seemed like if TH was driving Hwy 30, she'd triangulate off the Sauvie Island tower anyway.... Apparently the cel tower information is public record....

I think it was when the above article came out that someone looked up the towers, and it was discussed that if she was on Hwy 30, that her cell could have pinged on Sauvie, without her having actually been on Sauvie that day.

Bluestars
10-14-2010, 12:11 PM
Unless LE knew for certain the phone ping came from SI, I can't see them spending this much time searching there. There has got to be something more like an eye witness, evidence previously found, or maybe she used the internet service on the island. I don't know, but there must be something else that keeps bringing them back to the island.

I have driven those roads near Skyline and there are countless places to dispose of things and it would be a fluke if the things were ever found.

i.b.nora
10-14-2010, 12:22 PM
Video 4.13

http://www.kptv.com/news/24581546/detail.html

I was talking to her in general, just to say, "How are you, anyway I can help I will, etc." And she ended up telling me about how they are still very focused on Sauvie Island and telling me that she was driving down Highway 30 on the day Kyron disappeared, etc but she doesn’t know why they are focusing on the Island, I don’t know, it is all weird. Where is the boy?

Not looking so good for Terri, is it. Terri called me this afternoon a couple of hours after I talked to Kaine. Said she was having a bad day - that she & Kaine had a fight. She was driving. Then said she noticed a Detective following her and had to go.
Thank you for the link, however, it could be just me, but I don't see that quote in the article at the link, and I don't see any videos on that page.

So, mostly, I would like to know, who said or made the statements that you quoted? And, in what context were the statements made?

Billylee
10-14-2010, 12:34 PM
I was looking at the Rainbow Lake area north of where the Chas guy said he saw TH. Morgan Rd, I think it was. When I did a cell phone tower search from there, one of the towers was on SI. It was definitely the tallest of the ones that showed up. Someone answered my post that sounded like they knew about cell pings and said she could have pinged on any of those towers from that location. Now, I don't know how accurate that is, but I do know that if you're in say a valley or you're surrounded by a lot of trees or whatever, your phone may need to go to a taller tower to get reception, not necessarily the closest. (I think?) LOL

Billylee
10-14-2010, 12:38 PM
Video 4.13

http://www.kptv.com/news/24581546/detail.html

I was talking to her in general, just to say, "How are you, anyway I can help I will, etc." And she ended up telling me about how they are still very focused on Sauvie Island and telling me that she was driving down Highway 30 on the day Kyron disappeared, etc but she doesn’t know why they are focusing on the Island, I don’t know, it is all weird. Where is the boy?

Not looking so good for Terri, is it. Terri called me this afternoon a couple of hours after I talked to Kaine. Said she was having a bad day - that she & Kaine had a fight. She was driving. Then said she noticed a Detective following her and had to go.

Would she not have used Hwy 30 if she went straight home from the gym?

Billylee
10-14-2010, 01:38 PM
Example of cell phone towers from NW Logie Trail Rd., note that #2 is on SI and if you click on it, you'll see it's near NW Reeder Rd.

http://www.towergenie.com/results.asp?geocoded=45.6568982,%20-122.8801703&z=nw%20logie%20trail%20rd.%20%20portland%20or&m=5

Bluestars
10-14-2010, 02:28 PM
Thank you for the link, however, it could be just me, but I don't see that quote in the article at the link, and I don't see any videos on that page.

So, mostly, I would like to know, who said or made the statements that you quoted? And, in what context were the statements made?

If you scroll down, do you see a picture of Terri? The video is in the picture.

I don't know who made the statements. They were repeating things from Terri's e-mails, I believe. In the video, it shows text too.

Bluestars
10-14-2010, 02:31 PM
Would she not have used Hwy 30 if she went straight home from the gym?

Billy, I don't know. People were talking about Terri driving on Hwy 30 and I remembered reading somewhere that she said she did. I think SI is to the right of Hwy 30, so maybe she was driving up north and her phone pinged near Scapoose or somewhere over there. But it seems like it would take more than that to justify all of the searches on SI. I have a feeling LE has more than just a ping.

i.b.nora
10-14-2010, 02:33 PM
Example of cell phone towers from NW Logie Trail Rd., note that #2 is on SI and if you click on it, you'll see it's near NW Reeder Rd.

http://www.towergenie.com/results.asp?geocoded=45.6568982,%20-122.8801703&z=nw%20logie%20trail%20rd.%20%20portland%20or&m=5
Actually, there are two towers very close to one another on Suavie Island, and the third tower that shows up on that map is in the field right behind Skyline School.
If you put the Sheltered Nook address in, all the same towers show up.

Bluestars
10-14-2010, 02:36 PM
Example of cell phone towers from NW Logie Trail Rd., note that #2 is on SI and if you click on it, you'll see it's near NW Reeder Rd.

http://www.towergenie.com/results.asp?geocoded=45.6568982,%20-122.8801703&z=nw%20logie%20trail%20rd.%20%20portland%20or&m=5

I wonder if a person's phone would ping there if they were just driving up Hwy 30. Unless her cell phone had a GPS, I don't understand why they would keep going back to SI from just a ping. There hare thousands of places over there to dispose of something without ever going on that island. Unless a person was very familiar with the island and knew of a specific place to dispose of things, I don't see how SI would be a better option than any of the other places.

It seems like a person would be more noticeable on SI, not less. But then again, they have several bodies of water out there where I don't think people ever go near. At least it looked that way to me when I have driven out there.

BeanE
10-14-2010, 02:44 PM
Just a note to thank everybody who's posting cell ping info. I really appreciate it!

:grouphug:

Jo in Calif
10-14-2010, 02:45 PM
If you scroll down, do you see a picture of Terri? The video is in the picture.

I don't know who made the statements. They were repeating things from Terri's e-mails, I believe. In the video, it shows text too.
It sounded like it was a phone conversation in there too, to me anyway, Terri was driving and had to get off the phone, might of been a text also?

BeanE
10-14-2010, 03:01 PM
I don't know who made the statements. They were repeating things from Terri's e-mails, I believe. In the video, it shows text too.


It sounded like it was a phone conversation in there too, to me anyway, Terri was driving and had to get off the phone, might of been a text also?

4:13 in the video. The reporter is reading out emails sent between two friends. The friends had emailed each other about phone calls they had each had with Terri.

Jo in Calif
10-14-2010, 03:02 PM
4:13 in the video. The reporter is reading out emails sent between two friends. The friends had emailed each other about phone calls they had each had with Terri.

Gotcha, thanks.

Mellen
10-14-2010, 03:30 PM
Billy, I don't know. People were talking about Terri driving on Hwy 30 and I remembered reading somewhere that she said she did. I think SI is to the right of Hwy 30, so maybe she was driving up north and her phone pinged near Scapoose or somewhere over there. But it seems like it would take more than that to justify all of the searches on SI. I have a feeling LE has more than just a ping.

Or perhaps it's that the ping is all they have that would give them any kind of specific location to search.

Billylee
10-14-2010, 06:04 PM
I posted this on the SI searched again thread, but thought I'd repost it over here.


Cell towers for sheltered nook rd:

http://www.towergenie.com/results.asp?geocoded=45.640581,%20-122.8675995&z=nw%20sheltered%20nook%20rd.,%20portland%20or&m=5

cell towers for nw reeder rd, island cove market

http://www.towergenie.com/results.asp?geocoded=45.7494683,%20-122.7717233&z=31421%20nw%20reeder%20rd.,%20portland,%20or&m=5

Well, when you zoom in this looks exactly like the area they've been searching, huh? So if it's just pings they're working with, they're probably were pings between those two cell towers shown. I guess?

Interesting that the riverview tower is just outside the 5 mile sauvie area, and that's where TH's phone could ping from home.

txsvicki
10-14-2010, 06:34 PM
It sounded like it was a phone conversation in there too, to me anyway, Terri was driving and had to get off the phone, might of been a text also?


Or knowingly going into another tower area?

loves2bmom
10-14-2010, 06:47 PM
Would she not have used Hwy 30 if she went straight home from the gym?

No, she would not be on Hwy 30 traveling from the gym to her house. Her travels on Hwy 30 would have been before the gym (if you use TH's account of her day)

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=1265+Northwest+Waterhouse+Avenue,+Beaverton, +Oregon+97006+(24+Hour+Fitness)&daddr=45.56314,-122.867575+to:15725+NW+Sheltered+Nook+Road,+Portla nd,+or&geocode=Fd6xtgId2qOt-CGR4A0XkFb-Yw%3BFQQ9twIdiTCt-CldlaGE4gWVVDHwXnUHTkEMcQ%3BFdZYuAIdHC6t-CnF13BDzQCVVDFV2v10sZVstw&hl=en&mra=pd&mrcr=0&sll=45.537307,-122.837401&sspn=0.347252,0.804062&ie=UTF8&z=12&via=1

Billylee
10-14-2010, 07:12 PM
No, she would not be on Hwy 30 traveling from the gym to her house. Her travels on Hwy 30 would have been before the gym (if you use TH's account of her day)

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=1265+Northwest+Waterhouse+Avenue,+Beaverton, +Oregon+97006+(24+Hour+Fitness)&daddr=45.56314,-122.867575+to:15725+NW+Sheltered+Nook+Road,+Portla nd,+or&geocode=Fd6xtgId2qOt-CGR4A0XkFb-Yw%3BFQQ9twIdiTCt-CldlaGE4gWVVDHwXnUHTkEMcQ%3BFdZYuAIdHC6t-CnF13BDzQCVVDFV2v10sZVstw&hl=en&mra=pd&mrcr=0&sll=45.537307,-122.837401&sspn=0.347252,0.804062&ie=UTF8&z=12&via=1

You are right that would not be the fastest way home for sure. I was just thinking the highway would be faster, but when you plot that out, it's actually 10 minutes longer. Thanks.

tragco
10-14-2010, 09:27 PM
I posted this on the SI searched again thread, but thought I'd repost it over here.


Cell towers for sheltered nook rd:

http://www.towergenie.com/results.asp?geocoded=45.640581,%20-122.8675995&z=nw%20sheltered%20nook%20rd.,%20portland%20or&m=5

cell towers for nw reeder rd, island cove market

http://www.towergenie.com/results.asp?geocoded=45.7494683,%20-122.7717233&z=31421%20nw%20reeder%20rd.,%20portland,%20or&m=5

Well, when you zoom in this looks exactly like the area they've been searching, huh? So if it's just pings they're working with, they're probably were pings between those two cell towers shown. I guess?

Interesting that the riverview tower is just outside the 5 mile sauvie area, and that's where TH's phone could ping from home.

I agree.

What is odd to me is that the timeline, from what I understand, doesn't fit to allow TH to get from FM to there and back to the gym- I think that's what was decided unless she posted from her laptop on Sauvie instead of at home, yes?

I'm wondering if they are looking at her pings or somebody else's.

Billylee
10-14-2010, 11:49 PM
I agree.

What is odd to me is that the timeline, from what I understand, doesn't fit to allow TH to get from FM to there and back to the gym- I think that's what was decided unless she posted from her laptop on Sauvie instead of at home, yes?

I'm wondering if they are looking at her pings or somebody else's.

Trag.... go to the sauvie island timeline thread in references , I think it can fit, but she would have had very little time to do much of anything.

rnmif
10-15-2010, 03:23 PM
On a related note...for some reason I remember info that purportedly came from Terri in which she said police told her she had been driving on Highway 30 that morning. I seem to remember thinking that the way it was worded implied her story was that she was not near that area. But I can't find that info anywhere. I thought it was in Terri's e-mails which were made public on August 9th but I just re-watched that KATU story and it's not there. Any help finding this info would be appreciated, maybe I'm just imagining it.

If I can be driving Ocean Beach Hwy and it looks like I'm driving Hwy 30, what are the odds that someone could be driving on 26 and look like they're driving Hwy 30?

gwenabob
10-15-2010, 03:54 PM
If I can be driving Ocean Beach Hwy and it looks like I'm driving Hwy 30, what are the odds that someone could be driving on 26 and look like they're driving Hwy 30?

I live in Portland, and am not sure what "Ocean Beach Hwy" is. Hwy 26 and Hwy 30 are the nearest hwys that goes to the coast. Could you clarify please?

rnmif
10-15-2010, 06:37 PM
Unless LE knew for certain the phone ping came from SI, I can't see them spending this much time searching there. There has got to be something more like an eye witness, evidence previously found, or maybe she used the internet service on the island. I don't know, but there must be something else that keeps bringing them back to the island.

I have driven those roads near Skyline and there are countless places to dispose of things and it would be a fluke if the things were ever found.

If they had corroborating witness accounts, I'd think they'd be looking in a more targeted area.... They've re-checked a multitude of areas over time, and so far, nada....

rnmif
10-15-2010, 06:48 PM
I live in Portland, and am not sure what "Ocean Beach Hwy" is. Hwy 26 and Hwy 30 are the nearest hwys that goes to the coast. Could you clarify please?

I've posted a few times about being in the mountains in Cathlamet, WA, miles from the banks of the Columbia, and my cel phone had my location as Clatskanie, OR. Ocean Beach Hwy goes from Longview, WA to Long Beach, WA on the pacific coast, much the way Hwy 30 does on the other side of the river.

stmarysmead
10-16-2010, 07:22 AM
I trust Le has access to the top experts in this field.

They also have access to witness statements, and all sorts of other information. They are not returning IMO to Sauvie Island to search en masse weekend after weekend on anything flimsy. In fact, they seem very budget conscious. To me that means there is something very significant that leads them to Sauvie Island over and over. Pings may just be the tip of the iceberg.

gliving
10-16-2010, 11:56 AM
I trust Le has access to the top experts in this field.

They also have access to witness statements, and all sorts of other information. They are not returning IMO to Sauvie Island to search en masse weekend after weekend on anything flimsy. In fact, they seem very budget conscious. To me that means there is something very significant that leads them to Sauvie Island over and over. Pings may just be the tip of the iceberg.


Thanks for your post stmarysmead. Perhaps I missed something, but I thought the searchers were volunteers that depended on donations. I don't think they deplete the sheriff's budget. I've not heard from LE about the pings. Maybe I can find a MSM reference today. TIA

pufnstuf
10-16-2010, 01:24 PM
Thanks for your post stmarysmead. Perhaps I missed something, but I thought the searchers were volunteers that depended on donations. I don't think they deplete the sheriff's budget. I've not heard from LE about the pings. Maybe I can find a MSM reference today. TIA

Searchers, volunteer or not, must be coordinated by MCSO, which takes time and money.

sarah7855
10-16-2010, 02:00 PM
Thanks for your post stmarysmead. Perhaps I missed something, but I thought the searchers were volunteers that depended on donations. I don't think they deplete the sheriff's budget. I've not heard from LE about the pings. Maybe I can find a MSM reference today. TIA


Searchers, volunteer or not, must be coordinated by MCSO, which takes time and money.

You are right, puf.

From this (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/10/searchers_will_return_to_sauvi.html) article:


A total of 113 search personnel from numerous Washington and Oregon agencies, and including ground crews and searchers using horses and all-terrain vehicles

and, just an interesting point:


In the days after he was reported missing, divers searched the waters around the island and crews searched by helicopter, horse and on foot.
Lindstrand said crews weren’t searching the entire island, but she wouldn't say what specific areas were being covered. Search teams were seen primarily in the central part of the island, west of Northwest Reeder Road. The island is in both Columbia and Multnomah counties and teams covered areas in both.

Also, from this (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/10/searchers_continue_to_comb_sau.html) article:


Today's search was scaled back slightly from Saturday's effort which included 100 searchers. Leading the search this weekend are Sgt. Travis Gullberg and Deputy Mark Herron. The county's regular search and rescue coordinator, Sgt. Diana Olsen, was injured in a traffic accident earlier this week.

and


Today's search included 12 organizations from eight Washington and Oregon counties, including Clackamas, Yamhill, Polk, Marion, Deschutes, Wasco and Clark counties. Lindstrand said it was not clear whether search and rescue crews would return to the island next weekend.

Point being, LE is definitely putting time and money into these searches, and there were definitely a few interesting points in those articles. They are thoroughly searching that island, no doubt about it.

gliving
10-16-2010, 02:24 PM
“It depends on the weather and who we can get,” said Lt. Mary Lindstrand, spokeswoman for the sheriff’s office. “Most of the resources on the weekend are volunteers.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/10/multnomah_county_plans_another.html

"Most all of the searchers were volunteers.

"They all have that mission," said Lt. Mary Lindstrand, spokesperson for the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office. "And that mission is to bring Kyron home. And that's what we are going to do."
http://www.kgw.com/news/kyron-horman/Kyron-searchers-comb-Sauvie-Island-104215589.html

"Many of the 113 searchers were volunteers who spread out on horseback, four-wheelers and on foot. Investigators have said little about why they returned to the island, but wanted to make it clear that no new leads led them back to the area."
http://www.kptv.com/news/25266701/detail.html

"SAUVIE ISLAND, Ore. -- Months after eight-year-old Kyron Horman disappeared, more than one hundred volunteers are back on Sauvie Island searching for anything that could lead to some answers."
http://www.ktvl.com/articles/island-1197180-horman-kyron.html

"On foot, horseback and ATV, 15 teams conducted the search in the rain. Most of them are volunteers, giving up their weekends to aid the effort."
KGW.com

"Despite rain, dozens of volunteers showed up again this weekend and dedicated their time to aid in the search."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20019185-504083.html

"On Saturday, 160 search and rescue personnel from multiple jurisdictions combed farms and forest in the rural area. On ATV's, on horseback and with K-9 crews, the mostly-volunteer team said they would not give up until this case is resolved."
http://www.nwcn.com/news/oregon/Kyron-search-may-resume-on-Sauvie-Island-next-weekend-104320514.html

"There are two main funds: a Bank of America contribution account managed by the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office and the Kyron Horman Foundation, organized by Kyron's parents, Kaine Horman and Desiree Young, and stepfather Tony Young.

The sheriff's office fund began in June to offset the mounting expenses of the search for the missing boy, said spokeswoman Lt. Mary Lindstrand.

A chunk of donations are earmarked for search and rescue expenses, including staff hours, gas and meals. County search efforts are managed by the sheriff's office, but bolstered by nonprofit volunteer crews."
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/10/donations_top_85000_for_kyron.html

Beatrice
10-21-2010, 11:36 PM
I posted this on the SI searched again thread, but thought I'd repost it over here.


Cell towers for sheltered nook rd:

http://www.towergenie.com/results.asp?geocoded=45.640581,%20-122.8675995&z=nw%20sheltered%20nook%20rd.,%20portland%20or&m=5

cell towers for nw reeder rd, island cove market

http://www.towergenie.com/results.asp?geocoded=45.7494683,%20-122.7717233&z=31421%20nw%20reeder%20rd.,%20portland,%20or&m=5
Well, when you zoom in this looks exactly like the area they've been searching, huh? So if it's just pings they're working with, they're probably were pings between those two cell towers shown. I guess?

Interesting that the riverview tower is just outside the 5 mile sauvie area, and that's where TH's phone could ping from home.

Island Cove Market is just north of a RV Park...
Just west of a waterway/canal on the OR/WA border
and just south of what appears to be an orange (abandoned?) barn...
Locals: Anyone know of this barn? TIA!

BringKyronHome
10-22-2010, 10:42 AM
Do all carriers have access to all towers? Would we need to know TMs carrier to know which towers would actually cover her?

Tricia
11-19-2010, 05:13 PM
Hi Everyone,

It seems we have issues with Teri Horman's cell phone pings.

As with every single case we deal with on Websleuths we can only use the information provided to us through media sources to come to logical conclusions.

Here is what we know:

According to main stream media sources Terri Horman has lied about where she was after she left Kyron's school.

According to main stream media sources Teri cell phone pings do not match where she said she was the day Kyron disappeared.

Here is just on main stream media source that covers both of the above mentioned topics.
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Second-grade-student-missing-from-Skyline-Elementary-95670454.html

We know for a fact that the Sheriff's office has searched, more than once,
Sauvie Island for Kyron.

It is therefore very logical to assume that Terri Horman's cell phone pings could come from Suavie Island.

This may not be the case at all. There may be other reasons why the Sheriff is searching Sauvie Island.

However, if posters wish to make a logical conclusion that this may be why they are searching at this spot then they are certainly allowed to.

In other words if you do not agree with this you don't need to keep asking people over and over for a link showing the pings were on Sauvie Island.

On the other side no one should be posting that it is a fact that the pings came from Sauvie Island. If someone choses to go in another direction with the information that this their choice.

If a new poster asks for proof that the pings came from Sauvie Island just link to this post and don't make it a big deal.

If someone who should know better decides to keep asking for links hit the alert and do not respond.

On the other side if someone argues that YOU are wrong because the pings DID come from Suavie Island and insist it is the solid truth ignore them and hit the alert.

From this point forward let's all agree that we do not have direct evidence that the pings came from Sauvie Island but let those who want to post based on their logical conclusion that the pings came from the island do so without interruption.

On the other side let those who wish to post that they don't believe the pings came from the island because the proof is not solid enough do so without interruption.

In other words, let's agree to disagree and move on.

If you have any questions please post them here.

Thank you,
Tricia

Tricia
11-19-2010, 06:41 PM
If you guys have any questions please do not be shy. I promise no one will get in trouble for asking OK?

debirlfan
11-19-2010, 07:25 PM
Just throwing this out there - it's always important to remember that even if the phone was on the island, that doesn't mean that TH was.

For example - TH had plans to dispose of Kyron, and from watching CSI, knows about cell pings. So - suppose one of the other parents she sees at the school that morning goes to the same gym TH goes to, and she knows both the person's vehicle and their schedule. On her way out of the school, she stashes her phone in the back of their car. Later, she sees them at the gym, and sneaks out and retrieves the phone. Presto - cell pings that are no where near where where she actually was that morning - and perhaps no where near where she stashed the body.

Jo in Calif
11-19-2010, 08:02 PM
The thing to me about the pings is.
While Terri is at the school, her phone will ping at that location.
When Terri drives to the 1st FM her phone would ping at that location. Second FM ping at that location.
If she's driving in the location close to the Gym to get the baby to sleep for a few min (90 min or so) would that be in the location of SI?
I am assuming the SI pings are between the 2nd FM and the gym.
If her phone is pinging at the SI location any time before she went to the gym, why?

pufnstuf
11-19-2010, 08:09 PM
Here is what Kaine said about Sauvie Island and the phone pings when asked about it at his presser earlier this week:

Based on my understanding just, in general, Sauvie Island is huge. It's bigger than Manhattan Island. You take searchers on foot and you put them out in this big wide-open space and they start grid searching that amount of area--it's going to take a really long time. Uh, we mentioned before when the searches started--you guys asked about them--and the same thing, they'relooking for clues, anything that they can find that will help us discover what happened that day. they're not done, it's a huge area to search. i will imagine at this time the search on sauvie island will continue until they cover all of the area that they can cover or until they find something. i would not be surprised if it continues for the next few months if not longer than that.

When asked about why Sauvie Island:

Um, again, from an investigative standpoint I can't really comment. I think that you guys probably know enough about that to really tell us why they're on Sauvie island, but something to do with the day of his disappearance.

Adrienne37
11-19-2010, 08:14 PM
There's no doubt in my mind that it was Terri and her cell phone that pinged on SI that day. I feel that Kyron is on that island somewhere and they just haven't found the right place yet. I don't think LE is going to rest until they find him, just like they did in Zahra's case. ~JMO~

Tricia
11-19-2010, 08:26 PM
There's no doubt in my mind that it was Terri and her cell phone that pinged on SI that day. I feel that Kyron is on that island somewhere and they just haven't found the right place yet. I don't think LE is going to rest until they find him, just like they did in Zahra's case. ~JMO~

Thank you my dear.

I'm going to use your excellent post as an example of what NOT to do.

Adrienne37, please provide a link that shows where it says in the msm or from the sheriff that the pings are from the island? Thank you.

Adrienne37 doesn't have to provide a link because she/he is making a logical assumption based on the information we have.

In my opinion Kaine practically said so but I could be wrong.

Ok, hang for the next example.

Tricia
11-19-2010, 08:36 PM
Just throwing this out there - it's always important to remember that even if the phone was on the island, that doesn't mean that TH was.

For example - TH had plans to dispose of Kyron, and from watching CSI, knows about cell pings. So - suppose one of the other parents she sees at the school that morning goes to the same gym TH goes to, and she knows both the person's vehicle and their schedule. On her way out of the school, she stashes her phone in the back of their car. Later, she sees them at the gym, and sneaks out and retrieves the phone. Presto - cell pings that are no where near where where she actually was that morning - and perhaps no where near where she stashed the body.

Excellent post. Thank you. No one can say something like this didn't happen

Ok. let me show you an example of what not to do.

Debirlfan, please provide a link that says the pings did not come from the island and came from Terri leaving her phone somewhere else.

Debirlfan doesn't have to provide a link because she/he is making a logical assumption and offering a possible scenario with the cell phone.

This is what I am trying to avoid; members dogging each other. It happens on both sides.

I really like what everyone is saying here. Feel free to keep it going. It helps me understand more about the case.

It's difficult for me to know all the ins and outs of all the cases so when I come upon really interesting threads like this I LOVE IT.

Therefore I can make the logical assumption that others love it too :)

Love,
Tricia

grandmaj
11-19-2010, 09:07 PM
WRONG

I don't understand how you make excuse after excuse for Terri. She had the phone on SI IMO how many more ways does it take to convince you? She is a psycho and did something horrible to Kyron. Her actions with the MFH didn't work so she went after Kyron. It proves what kind of :crazy: she is.

I have done 3 things wrong in this post. I personalized the post. I put down another poster for their opinion effectively rendering their opinion worthless. I called names.

Better

I believe that it was Terri on SI because she is the one that was missing after going to the second FM store that day. In light of the cumulative events we have heard about, it makes more sense to me that there is more of a chance that is was Terri than an accomplice.

Adrienne37
11-19-2010, 09:11 PM
Whew, I thought I was in trouble. ~JMO~

Emma Peel
11-19-2010, 09:12 PM
sauvie island...
nude beach...
sexting...
PING!
(whoops)
:cow:

(Actually hoping LE's logic is better than mine.)

debirlfan
11-19-2010, 10:12 PM
Let me throw another wild idea out there...

We are all assuming that the cell phone pinged on the island during that block of time when she was supposedly driving around with the baby.

What if we're wrong - what if the phone pinged on the island at essentially the same time she was seen in the store and had an alibi?

Setting up such a situation (ie, by having an accomplice take the phone) would be a great way to "muddy the water" and call into question the validity of ANY info they gained from the cell phone.

(The idea of a reasonably intelligent perp who reportedly is a fan of CSI type shows taking a cell phone with her while disposing of a body/handing off a child bothers me. The general thought seems to be this was a pre-planned crime - and that would be a dumb thing to overlook. One would think that she would know the phone could be tracked. That's why I question whether - if TH did do something with Kyron - she might have intentionally used the phone as mis-direction.)

mmmagique
11-19-2010, 10:25 PM
Let me throw another wild idea out there...

We are all assuming that the cell phone pinged on the island during that block of time when she was supposedly driving around with the baby.

What if we're wrong - what if the phone pinged on the island at essentially the same time she was seen in the store and had an alibi?

Setting up such a situation (ie, by having an accomplice take the phone) would be a great way to "muddy the water" and call into question the validity of ANY info they gained from the cell phone.

(The idea of a reasonably intelligent perp who reportedly is a fan of CSI type shows taking a cell phone with her while disposing of a body/handing off a child bothers me. The general thought seems to be this was a pre-planned crime - and that would be a dumb thing to overlook. One would think that she would know the phone could be tracked. That's why I question whether - if TH did do something with Kyron - she might have intentionally used the phone as mis-direction.)

Perhaps she did. But I'm often surprised at what otherwise deep thinking criminals overlook.
Whenever a suspect says something like "Do you really think if I did it I would be stupid enough to [insert stupid act here]?" I'm usually thinking to myself..."yep."

Jo in Calif
11-19-2010, 10:28 PM
Let me throw another wild idea out there...

We are all assuming that the cell phone pinged on the island during that block of time when she was supposedly driving around with the baby.

What if we're wrong - what if the phone pinged on the island at essentially the same time she was seen in the store and had an alibi?

Setting up such a situation (ie, by having an accomplice take the phone) would be a great way to "muddy the water" and call into question the validity of ANY info they gained from the cell phone.

(The idea of a reasonably intelligent perp who reportedly is a fan of CSI type shows taking a cell phone with her while disposing of a body/handing off a child bothers me. The general thought seems to be this was a pre-planned crime - and that would be a dumb thing to overlook. One would think that she would know the phone could be tracked. That's why I question whether - if TH did do something with Kyron - she might have intentionally used the phone as mis-direction.)

Good idea, but I believe she showed the person, in the 2nd FM a picture of Kyron. That was her cell phone she took the picture with, wasn't it. That might prove she had her phone with her.

mmmagique
11-19-2010, 10:33 PM
Good idea, but I believe she showed the person, in the 2nd FM a picture of Kyron. That was her cell phone she took the picture with, wasn't it. That might prove she had her phone with her.

Great point!

JLMcKenna83
11-20-2010, 12:30 AM
Would this be a good thread for someone to post a map of cell towers in the area? (If they're available??)

Billylee
11-20-2010, 12:41 AM
Would this be a good thread for someone to post a map of cell towers in the area? (If they're available??)

This has been done in the earlier threads several times, I don't have time to look for them now, but they are there.
There's a whole thread dedicated to the cell phone pings IIRC. Sorry I don't have time to bring them up for you.

grayjay
11-20-2010, 12:46 AM
Good idea, but I believe she showed the person, in the 2nd FM a picture of Kyron. That was her cell phone she took the picture with, wasn't it. That might prove she had her phone with her.
Great point, as is the converse. She could have made that fuss just to show she had A cellphone with her, and that was the whole point of the exercise. Do we actually know the phone the photos are taken from? I could swap with someone and operate that camera just like on my own. :waitasec:

human
11-20-2010, 01:01 AM
I think LE has some info that indicates that TH was on Sauvie.

I just can't see them spending the time, money and difficulty of searching Sauvie unless they have a pretty good indication that there is a reason to search there.

TH claimed on her FB that they did not have television.

So perhaps she only saw CSI at someone else's house once in awhile?

And if she was incapacitated, perhaps she didn't see CSI very often if she was not truthful about having a television in the home.

She may have thought that turning off her phone did not allow for cellphone pings.

She may also have some kind of tattletale on the truck as well as on her cell phone.

Jo in Calif
11-20-2010, 01:14 AM
Great point, as is the converse. She could have made that fuss just to show she had A cellphone with her, and that was the whole point of the exercise. Do we actually know the phone the photos are taken from? I could swap with someone and operate that camera just like on my own. :waitasec:

I would be inclined to think that LE would have been able to tell if the picture was taken on Terri's cell phone. If that picture was taken with Terri's cell phone and was not on the phone Terri gave to LE, I would think she would have some splainnin to do.

Jo in Calif
11-20-2010, 01:28 AM
I think LE has some info that indicates that TH was on Sauvie.

I just can't see them spending the time, money and difficulty of searching Sauvie unless they have a pretty good indication that there is a reason to search there.

TH claimed on her FB that they did not have television.

So perhaps she only saw CSI at someone else's house once in awhile?

And if she was incapacitated, perhaps she didn't see CSI very often if she was not truthful about having a television in the home.

She may have thought that turning off her phone did not allow for cellphone pings.

She may also have some kind of tattletale on the truck as well as on her cell phone.

Kaine's Oct 25th filing with the court said that on nights when Terri was on the couch, he would find babyK up with her watching TV. I'm pretty confident Terri claiming there was no TV in their house, on her facebook account, was just one of her many lies.

kimmera
11-20-2010, 01:41 AM
I think LE has some info that indicates that TH was on Sauvie.

I just can't see them spending the time, money and difficulty of searching Sauvie unless they have a pretty good indication that there is a reason to search there.

TH claimed on her FB that they did not have television.

So perhaps she only saw CSI at someone else's house once in awhile?

And if she was incapacitated, perhaps she didn't see CSI very often if she was not truthful about having a television in the home.

She may have thought that turning off her phone did not allow for cellphone pings.

She may also have some kind of tattletale on the truck as well as on her cell phone.

BBM~

Terri claimed A LOT of things on Facebook, but if you search for photos online, you will clearly see a very nice size flat screen TV hanging on their wall. Once again, Terri is FOS. MOO.

Emma Peel
11-20-2010, 02:11 AM
BBM~

Terri claimed A LOT of things on Facebook, but if you search for photos online, you will clearly see a very nice size flat screen TV hanging on their wall. Once again, Terri is FOS. MOO.

wowza, good catch you guys.

the only thing is that I know quite a few families who have TV's (for home theater entertainment - DVD and HULU viewing they can control).

anyway, I'm not quite sure what "having TV" means anymore. But if it means paying for TV access (cable/satellite) ... and Terri meant it in that sense ... well ... then her hi-tech house is like the families that I know who won't subscribe and pay for cable but have DVD & internet access to movies & TV shows that have been previously aired & recorded.

Does that make sense? LOL. :waitasec:

Gosh I'm old. I have no idea how these young people pull this "not TV" stuff off without cable, but ... they do. :D

Oh great. Am I totally O/T? Sorry Tricia. I hope that qualifies as one of those questions I will not get in any trouble for. :angel:

debirlfan
11-20-2010, 02:19 AM
Good idea, but I believe she showed the person, in the 2nd FM a picture of Kyron. That was her cell phone she took the picture with, wasn't it. That might prove she had her phone with her.

Good point - I'd forgotten that.

However... If TH were a real mastermind...

Try this scenario. Everything is planned out ahead of time. TH takes a pic of Kyron in front of the exhibit. Goes to store, finds someone she knows at least vaguely and shows them the picture (proving Kyron was at school AND that she has her phone.) She goes back out to the truck where she has an accomplice waiting with a 2nd vehicle. Accomplice takes TH's phone, and heads for the island. TH takes Kyron in the opposite direction, and disposes of him somewhere where she expects his body will be found in a reasonable amount of time. Meets back up with accomplice and retrieves her phone. Goes home to "wait" for Kyron.

Now - if things go according to plan, TH has "proof" she was on the island - and Kyron is found 50 miles away in the other direction. Perfect alibi, all she needs is for her accomplice to keep quiet. Of course, if a body never shows up, it doesn't work.

Not saying it happened that way, but it certainly would be an almost perfect crime.

mmmagique
11-20-2010, 02:25 AM
wowza, good catch you guys.

the only thing is that I know quite a few families who have TV's (for home theater entertainment - DVD and HULU viewing they can control).

anyway, I'm not quite sure what "having TV" means anymore. But if it means paying for TV access (cable/satellite) ... and Terri meant it in that sense ... well ... then her hi-tech house is like the families that I know who won't subscribe and pay for cable but have DVD & internet access to movies & TV shows that have been previously aired & recorded.

Does that make sense? LOL. :waitasec:

Gosh I'm old. I have no idea how these young people pull this "not TV" stuff off without cable, but ... they do. :D

Oh great. Am I totally O/T? Sorry Tricia. I hope that qualifies as one of those questions I will not get in any trouble for. :angel:

Terri said something similar to: "none. not a single one" or something like that. She was adamant which is why I found it so odd to see the pictures of the tv and to hear Kaine say that they watched tv in the house.

mmmagique
11-20-2010, 02:31 AM
Good point - I'd forgotten that.

However... If TH were a real mastermind...

Try this scenario. Everything is planned out ahead of time. TH takes a pic of Kyron in front of the exhibit. Goes to store, finds someone she knows at least vaguely and shows them the picture (proving Kyron was at school AND that she has her phone.) She goes back out to the truck where she has an accomplice waiting with a 2nd vehicle. Accomplice takes TH's phone, and heads for the island. TH takes Kyron in the opposite direction, and disposes of him somewhere where she expects his body will be found in a reasonable amount of time. Meets back up with accomplice and retrieves her phone. Goes home to "wait" for Kyron.

Now - if things go according to plan, TH has "proof" she was on the island - and Kyron is found 50 miles away in the other direction. Perfect alibi, all she needs is for her accomplice to keep quiet. Of course, if a body never shows up, it doesn't work.

Not saying it happened that way, but it certainly would be an almost perfect crime.

It's a good idea but generally the simpler explanations are the truth.
Plus, how long would she have waited to see someone she knew? What if she waited too long and ran out of time?

It's possible this is the one thing she overlooked. If she did this, she had to be in quite an excited state even before she actually "did" whatever it is she may have done. She probably wasn't dumb enough to have a checklist (some criminals are caught for just that very reason!) (would that be an anal bust? *lol*) so she would have been trying to remember a lot of important things at once. (and in fact may have overlooked the significance of her cell phone altogether!)

JLMcKenna83
11-20-2010, 08:37 AM
This has been done in the earlier threads several times, I don't have time to look for them now, but they are there.
There's a whole thread dedicated to the cell phone pings IIRC. Sorry I don't have time to bring them up for you.

I'm sorry but I think you misunderstood my question. I didn't ask for someone to post the map for me, I asked if it would be a good place to post the map. Since this thread is for clarification and Q&A about the pings, I thought it would be wise to post the map here for easy reference for people who haven't been following the case as closely as others or for people just coming onto the board. Considering posts and maps get buried rather quickly, and Kyrons case has 723 threads as of this posting, I simply thought it would be easier to have them handy, in the beginning of the Clarification and Q&A thread. Just so they would be a little more visible, and possibly keep redundant questions about the location of the towers to a minimum.

loves2bmom
11-20-2010, 10:33 AM
I would be inclined to think that LE would have been able to tell if the picture was taken on Terri's cell phone. If that picture was taken with Terri's cell phone and was not on the phone Terri gave to LE, I would think she would have some splainnin to do.

I personally think the photos were taken on a digital camera that she pulled out to show AL. The clarity in the pictures don't look like a cell phone pic to me but maybe she had a fancier phone....??

Donjeta
11-20-2010, 11:13 AM
The fact: The LE people have searched SI quite extensively.


Personal inference:
There must have been something substantial to warrant the searches.

The question: If it was not Terri's cell pings that led them there, what else could it have been?

loves2bmom
11-20-2010, 11:19 AM
The fact: The LE people have searched SI quite extensively.


Personal inference:
There must have been something substantial to warrant the searches.

The question: If it was not Terri's cell pings that led them there, what else could it have been?

I think they have something more than pings to warrant that kind of searching. It has to be something big but not substantial enough for an immediate arrest. :waitasec:

grandmaj
11-20-2010, 12:22 PM
Well by now LE would know if the phone that pinged on SI is the same one in which the pictures of Kyron were taken right? And then Terri uploaded the picture from her computer at home right? I'm thinking if the phone pinged on Sauvie as reported, that it is probably Terri who had the phone.

Aedrys
11-20-2010, 01:45 PM
Yes, and let's remember, she didn't do the batphone thing until she was actually worried about the police investigating her, about the time or shortly before Houze was coming into the picture. I don't think she's as technologically advanced as she's made out to be. I think when the heat was coming, someone else advised her to get batphones and told her about cellphone pings. She didn't seem too worried about it until it became an issue because of the police. I do think that she thought she had this nailed down, but even master criminals make little mistakes that get them caught all the time. It's going to be interesting to see if one cellphone ping is what brings her down.

That, and I watch all sorts of crime shows, every CSI, Forensic Files, and ID Discovery is like my favorite channel. Even I am still learning about cellphone pings and triangulation. I'm not an expert or anything, either, but I just don't think Terri was into it as much as we are on Websleuths, and I don't think Terri watched those shows near as much. I think she said she did because it's cool to be a fan of shows like CSI. I don't think she was taking notes, though. I bet this ping stuff will be her downfall.

SurfieTX
11-20-2010, 02:09 PM
In the case review files, there's a note in there that the FBI did authenticate the photos of Kyron and that they were taken on June 4, 2010, when she said they were. I think they were probably taken with a digital camera, but I could be wrong.

Also, I think the bat phone plan initiated when DeDe came to stay with her. There are references in the infamous texts about meeting "the girls" about the "plan" for the money. I think she had her group of gals as a very captive audience at that time. She used a "clean phone" on Wednesday. DeDe came to stay with her on Sunday after Kaine left. So, my guess is Monday and Tuesday were spent getting phones and looking for a lawyer.

Having said all that, it makes sense to me that her original cell phone was the one she used on June 4, 2010, and was the origin of the ping.

gliving
11-20-2010, 03:59 PM
The fact: The LE people have searched SI quite extensively.


Personal inference:
There must have been something substantial to warrant the searches.

The question: If it was not Terri's cell pings that led them there, what else could it have been?

Donjeta, I remember Kaine saying the Sauvie Island searches were because the family spent a lot of time there. HTH. :)

mmmagique
11-20-2010, 06:02 PM
I suspect it's more than the fact the family spent a lot of time there.
Just a hunch.

Ms Suzanne
11-20-2010, 09:17 PM
How many pings were there?cell phone?texts?phone calls?and what times were they?If she planned all this.Why would she ping there knowing LE was going to check her cell phone.Unless to throw someone off.Have them think his body is there at Savie Island when it is somewhere else.Or...someone else threw them off.

mmmagique
11-20-2010, 09:27 PM
How many pings were there?cell phone?texts?phone calls?and what times were they?If she planned all this.Why would she ping there knowing LE was going to check her cell phone.Unless to throw someone off.Have them think his body is there at Savie Island when it is somewhere else.Or...someone else threw them off.

Not everyone is that knowledgable about cell phone pings, etc. Remember all the discussion and education we all got? And even *if* she did know all that (which I doubt) she may have forgotten in the excitement of the day.

No one else had any reason to take Terri's phone and throw them off.

Nobody. (imo)

Ms Suzanne
11-20-2010, 09:59 PM
How many pings were there?cell phone?texts?phone calls?and what times were they?

Billylee
11-20-2010, 10:21 PM
How many pings were there?cell phone?texts?phone calls?and what times were they?

You mean on June 4? Well, actually, none of us know, I'd assume LE knows how much or little TH used her phone, but unfortunately, none of it has ever been reported. Not that I'm aware of anyway. Not where calls pinged, not whom calls were made to or the times or anything about texts. I don't remember LE ever saying anything about TH's phone records that day. Maybe someone else can help out here, 'cuz I could have missed it.

grandmaj
11-20-2010, 10:28 PM
The phone pings while talked about by all MSM as coming from Sauvie Island are a closely guarded secret. From that one might assume that the phone pings are important to this case.

Billylee
11-20-2010, 10:31 PM
Holy cow yes, where her phone pinged is absolutely part of this case so long as she is being considered a defacto-suspect. I just have never heard that the phone pinged on SI. Like I said, maybe I missed it. Maybe there are other reasons SI is being searched, IDK, witnesses? IDK

Jo in Calif
11-20-2010, 11:03 PM
I think where some might get confused in thinking about cell phone pings, is that a phone call has to be made or received, in order to get a ping, same with texts.
It is my understanding, some one feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, cell phones ping off of towers, even if they aren't in use.

human
11-20-2010, 11:12 PM
Kaine's Oct 25th filing with the court said that on nights when Terri was on the couch, he would find babyK up with her watching TV. I'm pretty confident Terri claiming there was no TV in their house, on her facebook account, was just one of her many lies.

I think that Desi said that Terri would lie about things that were meaningless. I am really paraphrasing here.

But this is one huge example -why lie about television in the home?

What a silly thing.

SacreBleu
11-20-2010, 11:16 PM
I think where some might get confused in thinking about cell phone pings, is that a phone call has to be made or received, in order to get a ping, same with texts.
It is my understanding, some one feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, cell phones ping off of towers, even if they aren't in use.

That is what I recall reading here, as well.

Billylee
11-20-2010, 11:35 PM
Bumping for cell phone questions, for anyone who missed this thread. (Perhaps this should be merged with the current discussion?)

Kimster
11-20-2010, 11:37 PM
I'll merge them now. Just be sure to bump Tricia's posts if we have further concerns about the discussion.

Barry
11-21-2010, 12:01 AM
I have been wondering if the pings show TH spent an inordinate amount of time on the island on the days preceeding Kyrons disappearance, not necessarily on the day of it.

Billylee
11-21-2010, 02:07 PM
I have been wondering if the pings show TH spent an inordinate amount of time on the island on the days preceeding Kyrons disappearance, not necessarily on the day of it.

Now that's an interesting thought and one I had not seen addressed here. LE did at one point ask about either video or sightings of Terri on the 3rd. Very interesting.

Kimster
01-30-2011, 05:18 PM
:bump:

In light of the new search and ping speculation, this thread might be helpful. :grouphug:

Rayne
02-16-2011, 08:43 AM
Hi, everyone. I know nothing really current has been posted on this thread, but I just got some information last night I thought might be of interest, and this looked like the logical place to put it. I hope it's okay to post this ... if not, please correct me. I didn't see anything like this previously posted, sorry if I missed it.

My boyfriend works for a cell phone tower company, and I was asking him last night about how this all works. A phone will ping if it's just on, even if no call is made. He's fairly certain a phone will not ping if it's turned off (no power to send any signal). The pings are just the phone's way of checking for the nearest signal, signal strength, etc.

A tower has a working radius of about 3 miles - but that's 3 miles as the crow flies, and terrain, buildings, etc. can limit that radius. But in theory, with no obstructions, you can be up to about 3 miles in any direction from a tower and it can still register your phone signal.

Towers have capacity limits, so in densely populated areas you will have far more than one tower per 3 miles, simply for capacity purposes. If you had a cluster of towers in an area, that'd be 3 miles out from every tower on the outer perimeter that might have picked up your signal - a decently sized chunk of land a person could be on for one ping (or a series of pings in a general area).

Of course, I'm sure the cops know all this - but it goes back to something someone else said - it sounds like they'd have to have more evidence than "just" cell phone pings to warrant the intense search efforts in certain areas. JMO, of course.

My boyfriend also had an interesting thought - if you purposely wanted to mislead someone as to your location by using your cell phone, it would be far more effective to have that person actually make a call - maybe to an automated system like a bank, etc., where they didn't actually have to speak - as that would show up as a definite call made from that particular phone, rather than relying on pings. That makes sense if you assume the average person isn't all that knowledgeable about pings - I know I wasn't, until I started following this case. I would never have thought about my phone just going around randomly recording my location merely because it was on. (But then, I haven't been trying to mislead people as to my location either ... ).

But for what it's worth, assuming TH only had average knowledge about how cell phones work, that would lead me to believe that she didn't just hand her phone off to someone else to drive around with it for the purpose of misdirection - I think if that had been the plan, she'd have made sure of it by doing something like that (having a call made). JMO, I think it's more likely she actually was wherever these pings were coming from - in the general area, anyway.

Don't know is that's anything new or useful, but wanted to toss what I learned into the general knowledge pool.