PDA

View Full Version : POLL ADDED Connect The Dots-Working theories thread #2



Pages : 1 2 3 [4] 5

citigirl
09-14-2010, 10:13 PM
I really do agree with most of what you say. I have thought many of the same things. And you said it better than I could have.

I actually don't think Terri took Kyron from the school on that day. But there is a back story here that leads me to believe she knows who did. I think the MFH is the key here....can you work that into your explanation somehow? Do you think LE made it up? Or the LS made it up?

Dee10
09-14-2010, 10:29 PM
Cypress, if we were to throw out the polygraphs altogether there are still so many reasons to believe that Terri is connected to Kyron's disappearance...there is something so...off...about her.

Try to reconcile the perfect mother and talented teacher image she tried to present with the child endangermant convicted, sexting, lying (weekend Kaine moved out/reporters) reality of her personality.
How could police not question her activities that day closely?
And why wouldn't they be alarmed by an hour or more of uncorroborated time on that day?

I agree citigirl, she shows a pattern of behavior as you mentioned and then factor in the poly & GJ and you don't have to hate Terri (as others have mentioned) etc. to be suspicious...for goodness sakes.

debs
09-14-2010, 10:51 PM
The child endangerment was related to her DUI, which was an isolated incident. I don't know any parent who hasn't doesn't something incredibly stupid and/or dangerous where their child is concerned. It's awful that it happened, but it was an isolated incident. IMHO, I don't think an isolated DUI has any real bearing on this case.

I'm very wary of posting this, but I'll give you some insight into how I view Terri. IMHO, and without attempting to diagnose Terri, she has some unhealthy views about sex. Perhaps they are related to low self-esteem, perhaps they are related to abuse she's endured. Who knows, but I think these unhealthy views strongly govern her choices about men and how she deals with stressful situations. In general, Terri strikes me as the type of person not very confident about herself. Over the years, she's endeavored in many ways to boost her self-confidence (marriages, body-building, education), but it's something that's never come together for her. Her view of self is very closely connected to her feelings of worth, which is why she wanted to have liposuction, which is why she was worried that Kaine thought she was fat and unattractive. IMHO, her feelings of self-worth are closely related to how loved she feels, etc., which is why her relationships are erratic and not sustainable -- her feelings of self-worth frequently change and what follows is her feeling of being loved frequently changes and causes problems in her relationships. In that way, IMHO, she is needy.

IMHO, Terri isn't lying about how she met Kaine. IMHO, Kaine told her it was over with Desiree and they proceeded with their relationship. Perhaps Kaine told her what she wanted to believe, what made it convenient for her to proceed with their relationship, he provided her with a way to pursue him without feeling guilty, but the fact remains that this is what Kaine told her (in an interview, he explained the relationships this way). Obviously, Desiree has a different viewpoint. Is Desiree wrong in her viewpoint? No, I don't believe she is wrong. I believe it may not be as cut and dry as Kaine made it seem to Terri, though. Is Terri wrong in her viewpoint? No, she's not, IMHO. However, the disparity between what the two women believe is heavily influencing Desiree's overall opinion of Terri, IMHO. From the very beginning, Desiree has believed Terri is a liar. Is she, though? If Terri believed and repeated what Kaine told her about Desiree at the beginning of their relationship, is Terri the liar? No, IMHO, but Desiree obviously believes she is and this belief has governed Desiree's opinion of Terri, perhaps unfairly, for seven years. Additionally, Terri became the primary caregiver for Desiree's son, and I believe we can all agree that this would've been difficult for Desiree. This, too, has influenced, perhaps unfairly, Desiree's opinions of Terri.

For the past seven years, Terri has been attempting to get in Desiree's good graces -- being the go between for Kyron by driving him to Eugene for his weekend visits with Desiree and Tony, being somewhat involved in Desiree's other son's life, taking a lot of pictures of Kyron and tagging Desiree on Facebook, e-mail correspondence with Desiree about Kyron. All of this tells me that Terri wants Desiree to like her. In the aftermath of Kyron's abduction, a lot of things were said, but if you read early news reports, this blended family had handled things rather amiably. There was a lot of talk about making it work for the children, etc. Even though Desiree believes Terri is involved, she's never called Terri a bad mother, she's never claimed that Terri was abusive toward Kyron; in fact, she's said the opposite. She said that although Terri couldn't replace her, Terri has given Kyron what he needed. It's widely reported that Terri loves children, that she was helpful with them, attentive, etc. Desiree and Kaine may believe it's a lie now, because they believe Terri is responsible for Kyron's disappearance, but her actions for seven years told Desiree and Kaine that she loved all the children in this blended family, that she didn't mind caring for them, being involved in their lives, or going the extra mile.

So, then, Kyron disappears. Desiree suspects Terri from the beginning (she admitted this in an interview). But, also IMHO, Desiree's unfairly biased opinions about Terri frame Desiree's mindset from the outset. IMHO, Desiree doesn't keep her feelings a secret. Either verbally or non-verbally Desiree communicates to Terri that she holds her responsible, even if at first it is that Desiree blames Terri because she was the last parent to see Kyron. IMHO, this is what sets off Terri's defensiveness. Five interviews with LE within the first day of Kyron's disappearance wherein they are questioning her whereabouts that day magnifies this feeling in Terri. Terri retreats to a familiar comfort, perhaps her escape -- the Internet, and finds that people are already blaming her, calling her the evil stepmother, etc. (I read these types of comments the first day, in the first articles). This adds up to Terri feeling persecuted. If she is innocent, then of course she feels guilty. She was the last parent to see Kyron. Terri's a talker, she emotes when she's angry or frustrated. She starts acting defensive because she feels like everyone is blaming her. Desiree observes Terri and thinks her being defensive is a sign of her guilt, that she has something to hide. The cycle continues, with Terri feeling persecuted, and Desiree taking Terri's odd actions a sure sign that she's involved.

For the time being, Kaine supports Terri. He can't believe she would hurt Kyron. LE believes Terri's alibi sounds bogus. They press her about it. She takes a polygraph. Because her alibi sounds bogus, LE indicates she failed the poly in an attempt to smoke her out. There's a lot of pressure (financial, social, etc.) on LE to solve this case. Terri tells anyone and everyone who will listen that she failed the poly, but she doesn't understand why, because she was where she says she was.

LE doesn't pass along to Tony, Desiree, or Kaine that they are lying to Terri about the results of her polygraph. The other parents therefore believe she failed. IMHO, it's entirely possible Terri lies at this point, trying to cover her unverifiable time by saying she went to a couple of stores (Alberton's) that she never went to that day. She may or may not have anything to hide, but she can't verify her time either because she really was driving the baby around or because she was engaged in some kind of illegal or illicit behavior unrelated to Kyron. At this point, she panics, not because she is guilty but because she knows the others suspect her. IMHO, the walls closing in on her increases ten-fold if she was engaged in some type of illicit behavior. I believe this is possible, but I also believe at some point she reverts to her original story. She either says she was confused about Alberton's or finds a way to discount the lie and reverts to the story she recounted to her friend via e-mail on June 5. This waffling creates some confusion and suspicion among the other parents and accounts for their comments; however, Terri's timeline is tight, too tight for her to have done this alone, and little by little her initial timeline is verified. At this point, however, LE and Desiree and Tony are convinced Terri is involved. Thus the accomplice theory is born, IMHO.

At this point, she and Kaine begin fighting. He doesn't directly accuse her of anything, but the tacit suspicion is there. Still, though, she puts up a front. Then comes the sting, the RO, the divorce papers, Kaine and baby K leaving. At this point, Terri shuts down, but Michael Cook enters the picture. He starts doing nice things for her around the house; in contrast to the apparent innerworkings of her marriage to Kaine, Michael pays attention to her. He defends her in the press. Most people would get rip-roaring drunk if they were under the amount of stress that Terri was under, but that's not her vice. Alcohol is only a symptom of a larger problem. Also, IMHO, Michael Cook is a plant -- either of his own volition or at the request of someone else. He has information about how to work her over, about how to get the information he wants from her. Perhaps he prods her into sexual conversation, jokes around, perhaps not. I strongly believe sex is Terri's vice -- it's how she gets what she wants from men, it's how she copes, it's how she feels self-worth, it's the way in which she feels valuable in a relationship, etc. So, everything is gone, and she wants to feel something other than blamed for the disappearance of a boy she's raised, and so she engages in this completely inappropriate behavior. And the entire world finds out about it.

The sting and the increasing suspicion on Terri prompts her to hire Houze. For some completely inexplicable reason, Terri's good friend Michael Cook relays their conversations to LE. Houze tells Terri it's his way or the highway. She acquiesces to his demands. He works quietly behind the scenes.

In the absence of any real evidence, this is how I explain Terri and this situation.

I think this is one of the best posts I've read, Cypress. Well done.

Jo in Calif
09-14-2010, 10:52 PM
Cypreress, just out of curiosity, when was it reported, or when did you hear, Terri had liposuction? I don't recall ever hearing that.

wondering1
09-14-2010, 10:54 PM
Cypreress, just out of curiosity, when was it reported, or when did you hear, Terri had liposuction? I don't recall ever hearing that.

She didn't have it, afaik. I think it's from her fb survey.

cypress
09-14-2010, 10:56 PM
I really do agree with most of what you say. I have thought many of the same things. And you said it better than I could have.

I actually don't think Terri took Kyron from the school on that day. But there is a back story here that leads me to believe she knows who did. I think the MFH is the key here....can you work that into your explanation somehow? Do you think LE made it up? Or the LS made it up?

Maybe we'll find out differently, but Terri reminds me of several people I know, in that she is her own worst enemy, but ultimately she's harmless. Or, I should say, she's most harmful to herself.

Having said that, I believe there's a kernel of truth in most of what has been said and reported. With regard to the MFH plot, I believe it's entirely possible Terri had a conversation in jest with the landscaper that was, after Kyron's disappearance, taken more seriously than is warranted. In the wake of Kyron's abduction, I believe it's possible that the landscaper, upon questioning, was convinced that the MFH was more serious and valid than he'd ever believed. What could have been a conversation in jest seems a lot more serious when a child is missing, but is it more valid? Is the landscaper or is LE retroactively assigning more importance to that conversation than is warranted? We know the conversation never went beyond talk -- there were no plans, no payments, Kaine is alive, etc. In that regard, how serious was it really? Not serious enough for the landscaper to come forward when the conversation took place. Not serious enough for the landscaper to come forward of his own volition when Kyron went missing.

Also, I'm extremely curious about the landscaper's life, if there are warrants for him, if he was engaged in illegal activities about which LE was aware when they brought him in for questioning, the circumstances under which he relayed this story to LE, if he received any type of immunity (and for what) in exchange for his testimony in front of the grand jury, etc.

cypress
09-14-2010, 10:59 PM
Cypreress, just out of curiosity, when was it reported, or when did you hear, Terri had liposuction? I don't recall ever hearing that.

She didn't have liposuction, but she stated on her Facebook page that she'd like to have liposuction.

citigirl
09-14-2010, 11:07 PM
Maybe we'll find out differently, but Terri reminds me of several people I know, in that she is her own worst enemy, but ultimately she's harmless. Or, I should say, she's most harmful to herself.

Having said that, I believe there's a kernel of truth in most of what has been said and reported. With regard to the MFH plot, I believe it's entirely possible Terri had a conversation in jest with the landscaper that was, after Kyron's disappearance, taken more seriously than is warranted. In the wake of Kyron's abduction, I believe it's possible that the landscaper, upon questioning, was convinced that the MFH was more serious and valid than he'd ever believed. What could have been a conversation in jest seems a lot more serious when a child is missing, but is it more valid? Is the landscaper or is LE retroactively assigning more importance to that conversation than is warranted? We know the conversation never went beyond talk -- there were no plans, no payments, Kaine is alive, etc. In that regard, how serious was it really? Not serious enough for the landscaper to come forward when the conversation took place. Not serious enough for the landscaper to come forward of his own volition when Kyron went missing.

Also, I'm extremely curious about the landscaper's life, if there are warrants for him, if he was engaged in illegal activities about which LE was aware when they brought him in for questioning, the circumstances under which he relayed this story to LE, if he received any type of immunity (and for what) in exchange for his testimony in front of the grand jury, etc.

Cypress, you would make an excellent defense attorney for Terri. I hope Houze takes note of your post. You do make it all fit. I cannot think of outstanding pieces of the puzzle that won't fit into your explanation at the moment. We will have to see if LE has other pieces we don't know about.

Billylee
09-14-2010, 11:34 PM
Cypress, thank you for expressing your opinion/doubts about TH being a suspect. I think they are all well thought out and definitely worth considering. For some reason, I am reminded of the movie "It's a Wonder Life", where the woman comes forward at the end and gives Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed her money and says "I've been saving this just in case I ever need a divorce... if I ever get married". Now that was woman with an eye on the future!

Who knows what has happened here in Kyron's case, and, as much as I don't want TH to be guilty....BECAUSE SHE IS A MOTHER..... I still just hope that LE has NOT spent all their time barking up the wrong tree.

bessie
09-14-2010, 11:38 PM
That's an excellent post, Cypress. I hold a similar view of Terri and the dynamic between her and DY and KH. I'm just not quite ready to give her a complete pass. Like citigirl, I too think there might be a back story that hasn't come to light yet.

You said yourself that sex is Terri's vice, and I definitely agree. She took to MC quickly enough, and I'd wager her relationship with the LS was about more than shrubs and weeds. A MFH plot is either a very obvious joke or it's serious. I don't see room for a misunderstanding. Then again, maybe he's an immigrant. If so, the humor might not have translated well. He might've been a little unsure whether she was joking, and when the news came out about Kyron, he freaked. It's could happen.

Forget about the LS. Getting back to Terri and sex, is it possible she succumbed to the advances of another man? Someone she met at the gym, maybe. Is she so powerless to her vice that she went and got herself tangled up in a dangerous situation? I dunno, but that's where my thoughts have been for awhile.

cypress
09-14-2010, 11:59 PM
That's an excellent post, Cypress. I hold a similar view of Terri and the dynamic between her and DY and KH. I'm just not quite ready to give her a complete pass. Like citigirl, I too think there might be a back story that hasn't come to light yet.

You said yourself that sex is Terri's vice, and I definitely agree. She took to MC quickly enough, and I'd wager her relationship with the LS was about more than shrubs and weeds. A MFH plot is either a very obvious joke or it's serious. I don't see room for a misunderstanding. Then again, maybe he's an immigrant. If so, the humor might not have translated well. He might've been a little unsure whether she was joking, and when the news came out about Kyron, he freaked. It's could happen.

Forget about the LS. Getting back to Terri and sex, is it possible she succumbed to the advances of another man? Someone she met at the gym, maybe. Is she so powerless to her vice that she went and got herself tangled up in a dangerous situation? I dunno, but that's where my thoughts have been for awhile.

Honestly, if Terri and Landscaper had a somewhat joking conversation about offing Kaine because he was, in Terri's view, being a prick or insensitive, then it probably seemed a lot less funny after Kyron disappeared. If Landscaper was in any way in trouble with the law, he might have been compelled to see it as a lot less funny. Should Kyron's disappearance change the tenor of a conversation had seven months prior, though?

Also IMHO, a lot of discussions about Terri involve circular reasoning, and I think LE, Desiree, and Kaine are employing this type of fallacious logic.

I try to resist comparisons because each case is unique, but Terri reminds me so much of Brenda van Dam.

Lastly, IMHO, either Terri did this alone or someone completely unrelated to Terri via any nefarious connection but known to the school and Kyron (a SO or RSO) abducted and killed him. IMHO, there's no middle ground. The more accomplices LE, Desiree, and Kaine imply or peel out of the woodwork, the less likely it is that Terri's involved. If Kaine was missing, then okay, maybe Terri could've convinced one or several friends that Kaine was abusing her and she had no way out. FWIW, I'm not saying she's accused him of being abusive, but I think that would make a more compelling argument for some women. This, however, is not that kind of situation, and I think it would be extremely difficult for Terri to find even one person willing to help her abduct, harm, hide, and/or murder an innocent child, much less a gang of child abductors and murderers. This type of thing would've taken resources and a lot of planning. The agencies involved in this case are well into the double digits, and with as careless as Terri has been with her electronic correspondence, I find it extremely difficult to believe she was genius enough to leave not a shred of evidence revealing the names of her accomplices. In many ways, this includes Dede, because Dede didn't come to the forefront of this investigation until after she stayed with Terri (some three weeks after Kyron went missing). So, in effect, she came to LE's attention not because of any questionable correspondence or any real evidence but because she befriended Terri.

Again, and as I've said many times, the theory is guiding the quest for evidence as opposed to the evidence guiding the theory. All IMHO.

gitana1
09-15-2010, 12:17 AM
Cypress, you would make an excellent defense attorney for Terri. I hope Houze takes note of your post. You do make it all fit. I cannot think of outstanding pieces of the puzzle that won't fit into your explanation at the moment. We will have to see if LE has other pieces we don't know about.

I agree. Although I do not agree with much of Cypress' theory (I have one main reason and other smaller reasons to believe wholeheartedly that TH planned and did something terrible with Kyron), I nevertheless found Cypress' post to be intelligent and compelling and an interesting theory. Houze would do well to take note of Cypress' post. Thought provoking post, Cypress. This is why I love me some Websleuths!

Beatrice
09-15-2010, 12:27 AM
She didn't have liposuction, but she stated on her Facebook page that she'd like to have liposuction.

To me, it is obvious she has breast implants.

(She was probably feeling in competition with Desiree's good looks.)

gitana1
09-15-2010, 12:30 AM
I've been doing some thinking about this case last night and this morning about motivation on Terri's part. I used to think that if Terri did this, it was specifically to hurt Kaine or get back at Kaine. And I still think that to a certain extent. But as I was thinking, a few things occurred to me.

One thing that has come out is that Terri may have thought Kaine was having an affair. What if this "affair" wasn't a real affair? What if this affair was an exaggeration of the relationship Kaine was having with Desiree? I know we're not allowed to sleuth them. But it's always struck me as odd how well they get along, and how much they seem to agree about Terri. I still admire that they get along, don't get me wrong on that. I don't suspect them.

I just wonder if Kaine was getting along well with Desiree, but giving Terri the cold shoulder as their marriage was falling apart. Would that anger Terri enough to want to get back at him? I know if my husband was getting along swimmingly with his ex, but was treating me like crap, I would definitely think something was up, maybe even an affair between them.

I wonder if that was part of her motivation, and then something else. Maybe Kyron did find out something, like a plot against his dad, or something else that would make Terri look bad and any future divorce end badly for her, or any future chances at a job look bad for her.

And the biggest thing I wonder is if she was more worried about what Kyron might say to Desiree and Tony than Kaine. Maybe she felt that she had control of him at their house, and that he wouldn't tell Kaine anything. But maybe she worried more what he might say to Desiree and Tony, and if Kaine was getting along better with Desiree than Terri, if they chose to tell him what Kyron told them and he believed it, that would only make things worse for Terri in the end. After all, the DAY Kyron was supposed to go to Desiree and Tony's, he disappeared. That can't just be a coincidence.

And the day he was supposed to go them, there was the science fair. What perfect way to get rid of him, blame the school and win a lawsuit, and keep whatever secret it was that he found out away from Kaine, Desiree, and Tony, AND get back at Kaine and Desiree for having such a better relationship than Terri and Kaine were having.

So in sum, Terri couldn't stand how well Kaine and Desiree were getting along, exaggerates that into an affair in her mind and maybe to other people when she talks about it, and then Kyron finds out something he shouldn't, and she decides he has to die to protect her secret from his bio parents, and at the same time, she'd get back at those bio parents and the school that won't give her a job because of her DUI.

I do think family dynamics will play into this. I think a lot of what we don't know is family stuff that just hasn't been talked about yet. I think it's going to play largely into what happened to Kyron.


I think you have hit on some excellent points. I have never found DY and Kaine's relationship as exes, as it has been discussed and viewed in the context of this case, as strange, though. I get the sense that they are acting, and have acted (for the most part since their divorce), like mature people who put aside their personal feelings about one another for the sake of their kid. The fact that there is not a history of custody battles, that DY refused to uproot Kyron after she got well, that she seemed to tolerate TH, even though she states TH had an affair with Kaine, and that DY even had TH as a FB friend, etc., all of that supports my feelings.
But, I don't think TH understood how they didn't give in to petty jealousy and anger like so many people do (and believe me, they do). I agree with Cypress that TH was probably insecure. I think she may have been the type (think, not know), who would have felt more comfortable in the middle of warring exes, than in a situation where the parents tried to make the best of it. So if TH became more and more insecure in the marriage or lost feeling for Kaine, or whatever, I could see her resenting Kaine and DY's civility towards one another and misinterpreting that. Getting rid of Kyron would act to punish and harm Kaine while also hurting this ex that never faded into the background the way TH possibly thought she should have.

Calliope
09-15-2010, 12:42 AM
I think this is one of the best posts I've read, Cypress. Well done.

Absolutely. I couldn't add a thing. I think she nailed it.

wondering1
09-15-2010, 12:46 AM
I agree. Although I do not agree with much of Cypress' theory (I have one main reason and other smaller reasons to believe wholeheartedly that TH planned and did something terrible with Kyron), I nevertheless found Cypress' post to be intelligent and compelling and an interesting theory. Houze would do well to take note of Cypress' post. Thought provoking post, Cypress. This is why I love me some Websleuths!

I actually agree that it is quite plausible IF some other apparent character traits and factors were not in the mix. Probably some of the same ones you allude to. My perception of those other traits and factors makes this theory less plausible in my mind. But, otherwise, I would totally agree with Cypress, and thank her (?) for sharing her POV.

Calliope
09-15-2010, 12:49 AM
That's an excellent post, Cypress. I hold a similar view of Terri and the dynamic between her and DY and KH. I'm just not quite ready to give her a complete pass. Like citigirl, I too think there might be a back story that hasn't come to light yet.

You said yourself that sex is Terri's vice, and I definitely agree. She took to MC quickly enough, and I'd wager her relationship with the LS was about more than shrubs and weeds. A MFH plot is either a very obvious joke or it's serious. I don't see room for a misunderstanding. Then again, maybe he's an immigrant. If so, the humor might not have translated well. He might've been a little unsure whether she was joking, and when the news came out about Kyron, he freaked. It's could happen.

Forget about the LS. Getting back to Terri and sex, is it possible she succumbed to the advances of another man? Someone she met at the gym, maybe. Is she so powerless to her vice that she went and got herself tangled up in a dangerous situation? I dunno, but that's where my thoughts have been for awhile.

I've thought for some time now that her online presence may have played a role. I think she may have brought someone dangerous into their life through her internet connections.

wondering1
09-15-2010, 12:54 AM
Honestly, if Terri and Landscaper had a somewhat joking conversation about offing Kaine


excessively sbm!

One of the problems that I have is thinking that she was joking, like even *I mean it but would never do it,* joking. I think there was some level of seriousness to it, even if she never intended to carry it through. kwim? I base that on my perception of her history with men. Actually looking for and finding an out, rather than venting and staying in.

cluciano63
09-15-2010, 01:02 AM
I am of the opinion that Desiree and Kaine did not have much of a good relationship over the years and are just dealing with this situation together because they have no choice. Just an opinion.

Calliope
09-15-2010, 01:03 AM
excessively sbm!

One of the problems that I have is thinking that she was joking, like even *I mean it but would never do it,* joking. I think there was some level of seriousness to it, even if she never intended to carry it through. kwim? I base that on my perception of her history with men. Actually looking for and finding an out, rather than venting and staying in.

Terri strikes me as someone who mouths off and 'vents' ... and often at inappropriate times and in an inappropriate manner. I think she is someone who can and does say a lot of things in the heat of the moment that she really doesn't mean. I know people like that (some very close to me). It's their way of blowing off steam. None of them are violent, although you may not think so by listening to them when they really go off. I'm betting Terri was PO'd at Kaine and it showed. It doesn't mean she really wanted Kaine murdered, IMO.

Calliope
09-15-2010, 01:04 AM
I am of the opinion that Desiree and Kaine did not have much of a good relationship over the years and are just dealing with this situation together because they have no choice. Just an opinion.

Wasn't there a neighbor of Desiree's posting here at one point who said pretty much the same thing ?

cluciano63
09-15-2010, 01:07 AM
Wasn't there a neighbor of Desiree's posting here at one point who said pretty much the same thing ?

I don't recall that, but it seems like Terri was the one who was in daily touch with Desiree, was on facebook with her, Kaine does not show Desiree as a "friend" on FB, etc...I doubt Desiree ever really forgave Kaine.

bessie
09-15-2010, 01:15 AM
I think you have hit on some excellent points. I have never found DY and Kaine's relationship as exes, as it has been discussed and viewed in the context of this case, as strange, though. I get the sense that they are acting, and have acted (for the most part since their divorce), like mature people who put aside their personal feelings about one another for the sake of their kid. The fact that there is not a history of custody battles, that DY refused to uproot Kyron after she got well, that she seemed to tolerate TH, even though she states TH had an affair with Kaine, and that DY even had TH as a FB friend, etc., all of that supports my feelings.
But, I don't think TH understood how they didn't give in to petty jealousy and anger like so many people do (and believe me, they do). I agree with Cypress that TH was probably insecure. I think she may have been the type (think, not know), who would have felt more comfortable in the middle of warring exes, than in a situation where the parents tried to make the best of it. So if TH became more and more insecure in the marriage or lost feeling for Kaine, or whatever, I could see her resenting Kaine and DY's civility towards one another and misinterpreting that. Getting rid of Kyron would act to punish and harm Kaine while also hurting this ex that never faded into the background the way TH possibly thought she should have.
Any thoughts on the timing?

bessie
09-15-2010, 01:42 AM
Honestly, if Terri and Landscaper had a somewhat joking conversation about offing Kaine because he was, in Terri's view, being a prick or insensitive, then it probably seemed a lot less funny after Kyron disappeared. If Landscaper was in any way in trouble with the law, he might have been compelled to see it as a lot less funny. Should Kyron's disappearance change the tenor of a conversation had seven months prior, though?

Also IMHO, a lot of discussions about Terri involve circular reasoning, and I think LE, Desiree, and Kaine are employing this type of fallacious logic.

I try to resist comparisons because each case is unique, but Terri reminds me so much of Brenda van Dam.

Lastly, IMHO, either Terri did this alone or someone completely unrelated to Terri via any nefarious connection but known to the school and Kyron (a SO or RSO) abducted and killed him. IMHO, there's no middle ground. The more accomplices LE, Desiree, and Kaine imply or peel out of the woodwork, the less likely it is that Terri's involved. If Kaine was missing, then okay, maybe Terri could've convinced one or several friends that Kaine was abusing her and she had no way out. FWIW, I'm not saying she's accused him of being abusive, but I think that would make a more compelling argument for some women. This, however, is not that kind of situation, and I think it would be extremely difficult for Terri to find even one person willing to help her abduct, harm, hide, and/or murder an innocent child, much less a gang of child abductors and murderers. This type of thing would've taken resources and a lot of planning. The agencies involved in this case are well into the double digits, and with as careless as Terri has been with her electronic correspondence, I find it extremely difficult to believe she was genius enough to leave not a shred of evidence revealing the names of her accomplices. In many ways, this includes Dede, because Dede didn't come to the forefront of this investigation until after she stayed with Terri (some three weeks after Kyron went missing). So, in effect, she came to LE's attention not because of any questionable correspondence or any real evidence but because she befriended Terri.

Again, and as I've said many times, the theory is guiding the quest for evidence as opposed to the evidence guiding the theory. All IMHO.
So you think Terri might have acted alone? Wouldn't that require a rather high degree of cunning? If she's capable of removing Kyron from school sight unseen, then doing God knows what before disposing of his body, and stopping at two different FM's in between, all within a pretty close timeframe and with a toddler in tow, then isn't she clever enough to conceal or eliminate an electronic trail?

cypress
09-15-2010, 02:02 AM
So you think Terri might have acted alone? Wouldn't that require a rather high degree of cunning? If she's capable of removing Kyron from school sight unseen, then doing God knows what before disposing of his body, and stopping at two different FM's in between, all within a pretty close timeframe and with a toddler in tow, then isn't she clever enough to conceal or eliminate an electronic trail?

IMHO, it's unlikely Terri could've convinced multiple people to help her abduct and murder Kyron or conceal him for some unknown reason (although a claim of abuse is most likely, IMHO). IMHO, if she convinced someone that Kyron was being abused, then the person holding him would have basically good, if misguided, intentions. Given the coverage of this case, I don't understand how a basically good person can continue to hold Kyron against his will. IMHO, by now, they would've cracked and come forward to tell all they know, or they would've dropped him off somewhere so he could be picked up.

The other alternatives for Terri being involved are that she either abducted and murdered him alone or she had help. IMHO, it's extremely unlikely that she found someone to help her abduct and murder a child. Dede is, IMHO, a red herring. If she needed help to carry this out, then that takes away from her cunning. She sensed that she wasn't competent enough to do this alone. However, in my very, very strong opinion, something about her timeline prohibits her from doing this. IMHO, it's the amount of unverified time, and IMHO, it's less than an hour. IMHO, the reason the accomplice theory is so firmly rooted in Desiree's mind (and IMHO LE's collective mind as well) is because Terri can only be guilty/involved if she had help.

Dede's revelation about LE's line of questioning is telling, IMHO. Dede said LE wanted information that Terri was responsible or she had knowledge of it. This tells me LE isn't at all sure what happened, and that's very telling in terms of the context of this investigation, IMHO.

SmoothOperator
09-15-2010, 02:04 AM
I agree. Although I do not agree with much of Cypress' theory (I have one main reason and other smaller reasons to believe wholeheartedly that TH planned and did something terrible with Kyron), I nevertheless found Cypress' post to be intelligent and compelling and an interesting theory. Houze would do well to take note of Cypress' post. Thought provoking post, Cypress. This is why I love me some Websleuths!


Above BBM..

Hi gitana, I am interested to know what your main reason along with the other small reasons that you believe wholeheartedly[as I do] that Terri not only planned an abduction but had nefarious plans for Kyron rather than any type of "rescue" of Kyron as has been theorized?

I think I have an idea of what these reasons possibly are but would love to hear your opinion on these if you would like to share... TIA

MarieFaith
09-15-2010, 02:57 AM
I agree. Although I do not agree with much of Cypress' theory (I have one main reason and other smaller reasons to believe wholeheartedly that TH planned and did something terrible with Kyron), I nevertheless found Cypress' post to be intelligent and compelling and an interesting theory. Houze would do well to take note of Cypress' post. Thought provoking post, Cypress. This is why I love me some Websleuths!


Above BBM..

Hi gitana, I am interested to know what your main reason along with the other small reasons that you believe wholeheartedly[as I do] that Terri not only planned an abduction but had nefarious plans for Kyron rather than any type of "rescue" of Kyron as has been theorized?

I think I have an idea of what these reasons possibly are but would love to hear your opinion on these if you would like to share... TIA



I've believed Terri to be responsible, but found the theory by Cypress to be very compelling and thought provoking.

But what about the RO that she hasn't challenged? Cypress, you didn't mention that. And, Gitana, I suspect this is your main reason for holding to the view that Terri really is guilty,

Would love to hear more from both sleuths.

SmoothOperator
09-15-2010, 04:13 AM
I've believed Terri to be responsible, but found the theory by Cypress to be very compelling and thought provoking.

But what about the RO that she hasn't challenged? Cypress, you didn't mention that. And, Gitana, I suspect this is your main reason for holding to the view that Terri really is guilty,

Would love to hear more from both sleuths.

Above BBM.. Excellent point, MarieFaith... There are so many different, unusual, and strange, not to mention dont-add-up aspects of this case that I often have some in the back of my head from focusing intently on other aspects...

IMO the RO cannot be explained away, that is if Terri is NOT INVOLVED...

jadejazzkayla
09-15-2010, 07:17 AM
IMO the RO cannot be explained away, that is if Terri is NOT INVOLVED...

sbm...smooth - do you mean the contents of the ro? like when kaine wrote the cops gave him probable cause terri was involved in kyron's disappearance and the mfh?

or do you mean the conpempt charge brought about regarding the ro?

I always get those two things intertwined in my brain when thinking about the ro.

SusieMom
09-15-2010, 08:40 AM
Regarding the RO, I'd think its primarily the fact that she hasn't challenged it.

I mean, imagine if you were COMPLETELY INNOCENT... how much would you take? What would it be that would make you stand up and say ENOUGH.. I'm being accused of something I had nothing to do with, I understand that you are convinced otherwise but I AM INNOCENT and you CANNOT do this to me, I will not ALLOW you to do this to me or to my daughter.

For me, if I were innocent losing access to my child, not being able to visit with her, tuck her in at night, take her to the park..all of that stuff would not be something I'd just take. Nobody would be able to keep me from dragging KH to a judge and demanding that he put up some evidence or let me see my kid. If I were innocent there would be NOBODY who could keep me from my child for this amount of time, a few days till I could find a lawyer to make it happen, maybe, but no longer than that.

Why hasn't Terri done this? To me its hard to find an answer except one that involves at least some level of participation that she KNOWS they can prove. Either participation to the point that the she doesn't have a chance before a judge or confirmed behavior after the crime (such as hiding her involvement or knowledge) that would ruin her chances. I think one or the other likely exists. Even if she is guilty but knows LE can't prove it, wouldn't she take a chance to be able to have access to Baby K for a short time at least?

lynmaree
09-15-2010, 08:48 AM
Regarding the RO, I'd think its primarily the fact that she hasn't challenged it.

I mean, imagine if you were COMPLETELY INNOCENT... how much would you take? What would it be that would make you stand up and say ENOUGH.. I'm being accused of something I had nothing to do with, I understand that you are convinced otherwise but I AM INNOCENT and you CANNOT do this to me, I will not ALLOW you to do this to me or to my daughter.

For me, if I were innocent losing access to my child, not being able to visit with her, tuck her in at night, take her to the park..all of that stuff would not be something I'd just take. Nobody would be able to keep me from dragging KH to a judge and demanding that he put up some evidence or let me see my kid. If I were innocent there would be NOBODY who could keep me from my child for this amount of time, a few days till I could find a lawyer to make it happen, maybe, but no longer than that.

Why hasn't Terri done this? To me its hard to find an answer except one that involves at least some level of participation that she KNOWS they can prove. Either participation to the point that the she doesn't have a chance before a judge or confirmed behavior after the crime (such as hiding her involvement or knowledge) that would ruin her chances. I think one or the other likely exists. Even if she is guilty but knows LE can't prove it, wouldn't she take a chance to be able to have access to Baby K for a short time at least?

I have the exact same questions and quandries SusieMom! She now has not seen her daughter or had any contact with her in about 11 weeks!!!! If she IS the loving mom/stepmom that some believe she is, THIS WOULD BE KILLING HER!!! and I dont think anything would stop her from speaking up and taking a stand to get access to her baby. My God, her arms would be aching to hold her child and at this point she would be absolutely desperate...almost as desperate as K and D are to get Kyron back....this is the non-quantitative fact that pushes me off the fence to the guilty side of the yard.....as a mom, there is NO WAY IN HELL someone could keep me from my babies for this amount of time if I were innocent. Even a high priced defense attorney threatening to drop my case if I opened my mouth would not be able to stop me

A theory has surfaced that TH sent K underground to protect him from some type of harm..if there were any truth to that at all than would she be able to endure leaving her own flesh and blood child in harms way with the same people she was protecting K from? not buying that at all...

MarieFaith
09-15-2010, 08:49 AM
Regarding the RO, I'd think its primarily the fact that she hasn't challenged it.

I mean, imagine if you were COMPLETELY INNOCENT... how much would you take? What would it be that would make you stand up and say ENOUGH.. I'm being accused of something I had nothing to do with, I understand that you are convinced otherwise but I AM INNOCENT and you CANNOT do this to me, I will not ALLOW you to do this to me or to my daughter.

For me, if I were innocent losing access to my child, not being able to visit with her, tuck her in at night, take her to the park..all of that stuff would not be something I'd just take. Nobody would be able to keep me from dragging KH to a judge and demanding that he put up some evidence or let me see my kid. If I were innocent there would be NOBODY who could keep me from my child for this amount of time, a few days till I could find a lawyer to make it happen, maybe, but no longer than that.

Why hasn't Terri done this? To me its hard to find an answer except one that involves at least some level of participation that she KNOWS they can prove. Either participation to the point that the she doesn't have a chance before a judge or confirmed behavior after the crime (such as hiding her involvement or knowledge) that would ruin her chances. I think one or the other likely exists. Even if she is guilty but knows LE can't prove it, wouldn't she take a chance to be able to have access to Baby K for a short time at least?


EXACTLY!

No matter how beaten down Terri might be emotionally as described by Cypress' theory (which is excellent as far as it goes), IF SHE IS INNOCENT, then there has to be a point at which she would get herself together enough to fight back, rather than continuing to endure such public misunderstanding and contempt, and more importantly, the loss of her relationship with her daughter.

debs
09-15-2010, 09:34 AM
EXACTLY!

No matter how beaten down Terri might be emotionally as described by Cypress' theory (which is excellent as far as it goes), IF SHE IS INNOCENT, then there has to be a point at which she would get herself together enough to fight back, rather than continuing to endure such public misunderstanding and contempt, and more importantly, the loss of her relationship with her daughter.

Obviously, according to Terri's email to Kaine, she WAS trying to work on things, 'fight back' if you will. Kaine just made the jump faster. He took off with their child and set into motion things Terri had to handle legally. IF SHE IS INNOCENT as you say, it has to be a double hell, having Kyron gone and now her daughter.

MarieFaith
09-15-2010, 09:42 AM
EXACTLY!

No matter how beaten down Terri might be emotionally as described by Cypress' theory (which is excellent as far as it goes), IF SHE IS INNOCENT, then there has to be a point at which she would get herself together enough to fight back, rather than continuing to endure such public misunderstanding and contempt, and more importantly, the loss of her relationship with her daughter.


Obviously, according to Terri's email to Kaine, she WAS trying to work on things, 'fight back' if you will. Kaine just made the jump faster. He took off with their child and set into motion things Terri had to handle legally. IF SHE IS INNOCENT as you say, it has to be a double hell, having Kyron gone and now her daughter.

Debs, I'm talking about fighting back after the RO, not before.

She has not challenged the RO. That's the issue here, not what went on between her and Kaine previous to that.

Yes, the RO is a legal constraint. That's the whole point, that this should have been the turning point for her to scream ENOUGH...and to challenge the RO. She had 30 days in which to do that, as I understand it. Or maybe she still can. But she didn't...she hasn't yet done so, and she remains SILENT.

debs
09-15-2010, 09:51 AM
Debs, I'm talking about fighting back after the RO, not before.

She has not challenged the RO. That's the issue here, not what went on between her and Kaine previous to that.

Yes, the RO is a legal constraint. That's the whole point, that this should have been the turning point for her to scream ENOUGH...and to challenge the RO. She had 30 days in which to do that, as I understand it. Or maybe she still can. But she didn't...she hasn't yet done so, and she remains SILENT.

........and back 'round the circle we go. If said ANYTHING, it could be used against her, even screaming her innocence. Her lawyer is a bulldog. I would have twitched by now. I would have said something. But he knows more than she does about the law. She HAS to trust him or else. I don't think it's a choice for her now. It's a dictate. AND IF SHE IS INNOCENT, it is no doubt comparable in heartbreak to Sophie's Choice, to use a movie analogy.

Dee10
09-15-2010, 09:53 AM
Cypress, I think the reason the accomplice theory is so firmly rooted in Desiree's mind is in order for Kyron to be still be alive, unfortunately there had to be someone else involved at some point to be still taking care of him.

MarieFaith
09-15-2010, 10:08 AM
........and back 'round the circle we go. If said ANYTHING, it could be used against her, even screaming her innocence. Her lawyer is a bulldog. I would have twitched by now. I would have said something. But he knows more than she does about the law. She HAS to trust him or else. I don't think it's a choice for her now. It's a dictate. AND IF SHE IS INNOCENT, it is no doubt comparable in heartbreak to Sophie's Choice, to use a movie analogy.

Well, I don't want to go around that circle again, as I imagine you don't want to, either.

I respect your viewpoint, but don't agree that she has no choice. Everyone always has a choice. And she is choosing to follow her lawyers demand that she remain silent, even though she has no access to her daughter.

Enough said....on my end, anyway.

Aedrys
09-15-2010, 10:31 AM
........and back 'round the circle we go. If said ANYTHING, it could be used against her, even screaming her innocence. Her lawyer is a bulldog. I would have twitched by now. I would have said something. But he knows more than she does about the law. She HAS to trust him or else. I don't think it's a choice for her now. It's a dictate. AND IF SHE IS INNOCENT, it is no doubt comparable in heartbreak to Sophie's Choice, to use a movie analogy.

Yes, and she chose herself to cover. She has sacrificed her children to save herself. This isn't choosing which child to die like in Sophie's Choice. This is choosing to save herself above having a relationship at all with her children. She's willing to give up being any part of baby K or J's life just so she can save herself from a situation she totally got herself into in the first place. This is completely selfish on her part, innocent or not, heeding her lawyer's advice or not.

As a parent, you're supposed to give up your life for your child, not give up your child's life to save yourself. That is a lot of what's wrong in this country today and why so many children are abused and killed. It's the parent first, children never. And Terri has clearly demonstrated that her life, her rights, her everything is far more important than her kids. That is just sad and selfish to me.

And honestly, someone giving up their kids to save themselves is someone who is willing to use/hurt/kill those kids to get what they want.

PaulaF513
09-15-2010, 11:04 AM
Cypress

I really think yours have been best thought out and intelligently presented posts I have seen on this subject. Kudos...and keep 'em coming.

lynmaree
09-15-2010, 11:05 AM
Yes, and she chose herself to cover. She has sacrificed her children to save herself. This isn't choosing which child to die like in Sophie's Choice. This is choosing to save herself above having a relationship at all with her children. She's willing to give up being any part of baby K or J's life just so she can save herself from a situation she totally got herself into in the first place. This is completely selfish on her part, innocent or not, heeding her lawyer's advice or not.

As a parent, you're supposed to give up your life for your child, not give up your child's life to save yourself. That is a lot of what's wrong in this country today and why so many children are abused and killed. It's the parent first, children never. And Terri has clearly demonstrated that her life, her rights, her everything is far more important than her kids. That is just sad and selfish to me.

And honestly, someone giving up their kids to save themselves is someone who is willing to use/hurt/kill those kids to get what they want.

IMO, she's completely screwed no matter what she does now whether innocent (said with an eye-roll) or guilty....her selfish choices have led to her ultimate demise whether it be now or later...

even if (and I highly doubt) she was only involved as an accessory in K's disappearance she has seriously and permanently damaged any chance she has now or in the future for any kind of normal life or relationship with ANY of her kids....even if we never get any answers, her own actions and inactions to date have caused enough doubt and uncertainty to insure that.

She WILL wear a scarlet letter forever...it could be one of many..

1. murderer
2. kidnapper
3. uncaring parent
4. selfish witch
5. adulterer
6. liar
7. etc.......

One label she will most certainly NEVER wear now....unless some big bombshell comes out that none of us could ever have foreseen is VICTIM

I just cant see her being able to spin this to ultimately save herself....even if its only to salvage a relationship with Baby K later in life...I think she's sealed her fate so to speak

Calliope
09-15-2010, 11:16 AM
A theory has surfaced that TH sent K underground to protect him from some type of harm..if there were any truth to that at all than would she be able to endure leaving her own flesh and blood child in harms way with the same people she was protecting K from? not buying that at all...

Why does it have to be Kaine she's shielding him from?

lynmaree
09-15-2010, 11:25 AM
Why does it have to be Kaine she's shielding him from?


Im sorry but did I say Kaine somewhere and not realize it? I believe I said "people" meaning assumedly that Kyron would have been being harmed by someone around him that he knew, whether it be family, associates, neighbors, school staff ANYONE....I guess I was inferring that siblings would probably all be exposed to the same "people" and without mom around to even monitor or try and shield

Calliope
09-15-2010, 11:32 AM
Im sorry but did I say Kaine somewhere and not realize it? I believe I said "people" meaning assumedly that Kyron would have been being harmed by someone around him that he knew, whether it be family, associates, neighbors, school staff ANYONE....I guess I was inferring that siblings would probably all be exposed to the same "people" and without mom around to even monitor or try and shield

The theories I've seen on this are primarily that she felt Kyron was abused in the home, Kaine was a bully, etc., so Terri *disappeared* him for his own safety. I've not seen any that put forth that Kyron was possibly abused outside the home. But point taken.

PaulaF513
09-15-2010, 11:34 AM
Yes, and she chose herself to cover. She has sacrificed her children to save herself. This isn't choosing which child to die like in Sophie's Choice. This is choosing to save herself above having a relationship at all with her children. She's willing to give up being any part of baby K or J's life just so she can save herself from a situation she totally got herself into in the first place. This is completely selfish on her part, innocent or not, heeding her lawyer's advice or not.

As a parent, you're supposed to give up your life for your child, not give up your child's life to save yourself. That is a lot of what's wrong in this country today and why so many children are abused and killed. It's the parent first, children never. And Terri has clearly demonstrated that her life, her rights, her everything is far more important than her kids. That is just sad and selfish to me.

And honestly, someone giving up their kids to save themselves is someone who is willing to use/hurt/kill those kids to get what they want.

But isn't "giving up her kids" exactly what DY has done? Twice?? From what I've read, she chose to not contest her sons' fathers' custody. Why then is she regarded with such admiration and TH, with scorn? If TH is not responsible for Kyron's disappearance, exactly what situation did she get herself into ?

The way I see it, the temporary RO is something that can wait to be dealt with once the truly damaging factor is over. TH and her attorney are now fully aware that she is a suspect (albeit unnamed) in Kyron's disappearance and probable death. Once that shadow of suspicion is removed from her officially, TH will have no problem with regaining custody of her daughter, if only on a shared basis.

On the other hand, if LE is able to find evidence sufficient to convict her of Kyron's disappearance, she will be imprisoned for a very long time and the baby will most likely never see her mother again.

cluciano63
09-15-2010, 11:42 AM
I don't think anyone has actually said Terri was protecting Kyron from Kaine...only that she may have told this to others, if indeed this was the ruse used to get others to help her with whatever plan she may have had, if she had one.

Calliope
09-15-2010, 11:45 AM
I don't think anyone has actually said Terri was protecting Kyron from Kaine...only that she may have told this to others, if indeed this was the ruse used to get others to help her with whatever plan she may have had, if she had one.

Yeah. She convinced others he was abusive in some manner. Or that she did believe him to be. I've seen both angles tossed about. I don't believe either, though.

Donjeta
09-15-2010, 01:45 PM
But isn't "giving up her kids" exactly what DY has done? Twice?? From what I've read, she chose to not contest her sons' fathers' custody. Why then is she regarded with such admiration and TH, with scorn? If TH is not responsible for Kyron's disappearance, exactly what situation did she get herself into ?

The way I see it, the temporary RO is something that can wait to be dealt with once the truly damaging factor is over. TH and her attorney are now fully aware that she is a suspect (albeit unnamed) in Kyron's disappearance and probable death. Once that shadow of suspicion is removed from her officially, TH will have no problem with regaining custody of her daughter, if only on a shared basis.

On the other hand, if LE is able to find evidence sufficient to convict her of Kyron's disappearance, she will be imprisoned for a very long time and the baby will most likely never see her mother again.

JMO but parents who regularly see their children and have a relationship with them although they primarily live with the other parent did not give up their children. One of the divorced parents has to be in that position if 50-50 is not practical for one reason or another.

It's a far cry from parents who have restraining orders that prohibit them from having any access to their children.

PaulaF513
09-15-2010, 02:27 PM
JMO but parents who regularly see their children and have a relationship with them although they primarily live with the other parent did not give up their children. One of the divorced parents has to be in that position if 50-50 is not practical for one reason or another.

It's a far cry from parents who have restraining orders that prohibit them from having any access to their children.

Respectfully, Donjeta...

IMHO, the RO taken against her under these dire circumstances, is an insurmountable obstacle, as long as her role in Kyron's disappearance is in question, even as a de facto suspect. I truly believe there is no way she can challenge it successfully until LE comes right out and declares her to not be suspect.

And yes, in most divorces the children live primarily with one parent. In most cases that parent is the mother, although more fathers nowadays are seeking primary caregiver status. I find it most unusual that a mother would cede primary custody to 2 separate ex husbands. DY and her current husband appear to have a good marriage and they are both gainfully employed. It just seems peculiar to me that DY has not fought harder to obtain custody, at least of little Kyron, particularly in view of her statements that he cried when he had to go back home after his twice a month visits.

Aedrys
09-15-2010, 02:28 PM
JMO but parents who regularly see their children and have a relationship with them although they primarily live with the other parent did not give up their children. One of the divorced parents has to be in that position if 50-50 is not practical for one reason or another.

It's a far cry from parents who have restraining orders that prohibit them from having any access to their children.

Thank you. There is just no comparison. DY didn't hurt or kill Kyron. DY is not currently under suspicion and NOT seeing her kids. DY has/had a relationship with both of kids DESPITE having serious medical issues (I put had because I don't think Kyron is alive anymore). DY did what was BEST for her kids in her situation, which was medical, not legal. She doesn't have the pressure of being investigated on her. She doesn't have to worry because she didn't do anything wrong here. TH has shot herself in the foot over and over again, aand constantly cast suspicion back on herself. She has no one to blame for her position but herself. And now she's choosing to hide behind her lawyer and say nothing while two children remain motherless. I see nothing but love for her children from DY. I'm sure she sees/saw them as much as she can and wishes nothing more than to have Kyron back in her arms someday. I see nothing but love only for herself from TH. Those poor children of hers, and she doesn't care at all what they are going through.

I just don't get at all how DY and TH can possibly be seen as the same. It is beyond disturbing to see the thought over and over again that somehow these women are exactly the same in the exact same situation. That could not be further from the truth.

gitana1
09-15-2010, 02:31 PM
Any thoughts on the timing?

If you mean why (assuming that my theory that TH planned and took Kyron is correct) TH did what I think she did when she did it, then there could be a number of possibilities. I'm not sure what prompts anyone to decide "this is it. I can't take anymore and I'm doing this now.", a la scott peterson, Susan Smith, casey anthony, Diane Downs, etc. But in all of these cases, I believe that the person or persons they disappeared or killed became the source or symbol of their anguish, in their minds, over time, and they began planning how to get rid of the "problem". I think they either look for the best moment
possible to do what they want to do, or something specific happens that makes them determined to create that moment, instead of waiting for the "right" time. For example, I believe casey anthony decided in March 2008 to get rid of Caylee. She began thinking and planning. Then there was a terrible fight between her and her mother. That's when the planning sort of ended and the plan became a sudden reality. Just my theory.

I don't know TH or any of the people involved in this case and unlike some of the others mentioned above, I don't feel I have anywhere near the info I need to create a halfway credible psych profile. So my guesses are based on little things here and there, comments by people who know TH, her own e-mails, FB, etc. It's not enough for me to feel confident as to exactly what makes her tick. But my sense is that she could be the type who needs to feel adored and sexy by the person she's with. Hence, the several marriages - when the excitement of the new relationship ends, she gets out. (I'm just supposing here.) Perhaps the reality of marriage and family with a guy who seems to me not to be too emotive, kind of technical and perhaps wooden, began to press down on the fantasy of creating a family with a guy who left a more attractive woman (JMO), for TH, who maybe never felt attractive enough. "See? I am beautiful. I'm better than this woman who thinks she's so pretty. Her husband left her for me even though she was pregnant!", or whatever.
I have a friend who's like this. It's sad. She flits from man to man, marriage to marriage, very insecure about her looks, constantly getting bigger boobs, working out, redying her hair, having extended photo shoots of herself for no reason. And it seems her goal is to prove to herself that the guy she has her eye on, really, really wants her. The sex will be fantastic at first. She'll know this is the one. Everything she does will be to get this guy. And when she does, when he proves he wants her and wants to be committed, within a couple of months, she's done. It stems from her being a mousy but adorable little girl whose parents were cold and withheld love. When she became a teen and realized she could use her sexuality to get attention, boy she was off!
In any event, TH may be someone like this. Now she finds herself in a relationship in which the fantasy has faded and the reality is not so good. Maybe she begins to blame Kaine for the fading of the fantasy. Maybe she begins to also question her own worth and attractiveness as the reason reality is not what she expected. She may not understand that the excitement and passion of any new relationship cannot be sustained for long, especially when bills and problems, babies, barf, illness, and fights, sleep deprivation, work and the guy farting in the bed next to her, become the day to day. But she doesn't understand that this is normal. And due to deep-seated insecurities that she cannot face, she blames others. And due to possible other, more abnormal problems, like PPD, or a personality disorder, or whatever, that blame takes on a dangerous focus: "It's Kyron. He is the reason our life is not so good. He's always been in the way. If it was only me and Baby K and Kaine, things would be better. Kaine doesn't love me and the baby as much as he does Kyron. He needs to go. He's the problem. That will show Kaine too. I'll get him for not giving me what I deserve. Then, he'll learn. And DY too. She thinks she's all that. I know she does. She thinks she's a better mom than me. She thinks she's prettier than me. She probably thinks she can get Kaine back too. Well, I'll show her. She'll never get Kaine back and now she won't get Kyron back either. Then they'll see."
I believe that the thinking or criminals is convoluted and their reasoning complex. It doesn't make sense because it is abnormal. For example, in casey anthony's case, I think she saw Caylee as a burden who prevented her from being free to party, and also as a source of constant criticism and anger by her mother: "You aren't a good mom. You need to get a job and stay home and take care of your own baby." At the same time, she saw Caylee as usurping her place/role as the adored and spoiled princess of the family. And, she was horribly jealous and angry at her mom for trying to take her place as Caylee's mother. So, killing Caylee was a way to get rid of the burden, get back her place as princess, and punish her mother for criticizing her and for trying to be the mother to Caylee that casey was supposed to be. It's a mess.
Similar thinking may have taken place here. I do not believe this was precipitated by any affair on Kaine's part or anything like that. It was probably a combination of things for Terri that led to a growing obsession that Kyron was both the problem and the means for getting back at those TH feels wronged her or posed a threat to her. I believe this was planned but I don't know why, on that day. It could have been opportunity, it could have been a comment, anything, really. It's hard to understand a mind as disordered as that of a person who could harm a child. Who knows.
These are just theories I'm putting out there based on the scant info I have which may or may not be reality. It will be interesting to find out more. The reasoning of criminals and their psychology is something that I'm always trying to figure out. I guess as a way to perhaps protect myself and my loved ones from similar people that may come into our lives. But there is so little actual info in this case that I can only imagine.

Aedrys
09-15-2010, 02:33 PM
Respectfully, Donjeta...

IMHO, the RO taken against her under these dire circumstances, is an insurmountable obstacle, as long as her role in Kyron's disappearance is in question, even as a de facto suspect. I truly believe there is no way she can challenge it successfully until LE comes right out and declares her to not be suspect.

And yes, in most divorces the children live primarily with one parent. In most cases that parent is the mother, although more fathers nowadays are seeking primary caregiver status. I find it most unusual that a mother would cede primary custody to 2 separate ex husbands. DY and her current husband appear to have a good marriage and they are both gainfully employed. It just seems peculiar to me that DY has not fought harder to obtain custody, at least of little Kyron, particularly in view of her statements that he cried when he had to go back home after his twice a month visits.

And that makes her a bad mom or a criminal? I know lots of moms that love having that dad to send their kid to as many times a month as possible so they get a break. I don't think they'd know what to do if they had to take care of their kids fulltime. Plus, time has passed. Just like it's going to be harder for TH to fight the RO and get custody the more time she lets pass, I'm sure that because eight years or so has gone by, DY has lost a lot of standing on custody issues. Maybe she's decided not to disrupt things they way they are for her kids sake. I don't understand why this makes her the same as TH. We don't know her personally, she didn't do anything wrong to Kyron, and no negativity should be put on a loving mother that is a VICTIM of having lost her very cherished son, most likely because of spiteful and selfish stepmother.

And if she didn't want an insurmountable obstacle on herself, TH shouldn't have tried to get someone to kill her husband and then cancel it. She doesn't want trouble, she shouldn't start it in the first place.

citigirl
09-15-2010, 02:37 PM
I have heard gitana's feelings before on the restraining order, so I think I understand where she is coming from. As an attorney, gitana knows that Terri's lawyer HAD to tell her that if she does not contest the restraining order she will never get her daughter back. She may never even see her again. And many of you think that if Terri is completely innocent, she would not give up her daughter this way. I agree with you.

But...if we were to take Cypress's argument to the logical conclusion, Terri's emotional issues might mean that she WOULD put herself before her daughter. That if she felt threatened, even if she were completely innocent, she might risk never seeing her daughter again to keep herself out of jail. Maybe this "perfect mother" image has been too difficult to keep up any way....

citigirl
09-15-2010, 02:38 PM
I have heard gitana's feelings before on the restraining order, so I think I understand where she is coming from. As an attorney, gitana knows that Terri's lawyer HAD to tell her that if she does not contest the restraining order she will never get her daughter back. She may never even see her again. And many of you think that if Terri is completely innocent, she would not give up her daughter this way. I agree with you.

But...if we were to take Cypress's argument to the logical conclusion, Terri's emotional issues might mean that she WOULD put herself before her daughter. That if she felt threatened, even if she were completely innocent, she might risk never seeing her daughter again to keep herself out of jail. Maybe this "perfect mother" image has been too difficult to keep up any way....

sorry, gitana--I posted this at the same time as you posted your response!

Donjeta
09-15-2010, 02:43 PM
Respectfully, Donjeta...

IMHO, the RO taken against her under these dire circumstances, is an insurmountable obstacle, as long as her role in Kyron's disappearance is in question, even as a de facto suspect. I truly believe there is no way she can challenge it successfully until LE comes right out and declares her to not be suspect.

And yes, in most divorces the children live primarily with one parent. In most cases that parent is the mother, although more fathers nowadays are seeking primary caregiver status. I find it most unusual that a mother would cede primary custody to 2 separate ex husbands. DY and her current husband appear to have a good marriage and they are both gainfully employed. It just seems peculiar to me that DY has not fought harder to obtain custody, at least of little Kyron, particularly in view of her statements that he cried when he had to go back home after his twice a month visits.

The RO may be an insurmountable obstacle now and Terri might not have a choice to fight it but it might be that she is in that position now because of choices that she made in the past.

I don't know why Desiree didn't fight for the primary custody. Maybe it was felt that Kyron had adjusted well and generally had it all right in his present situation. Lots of children from divorced families take the separations hard from time to time and it doesn't always mean that they are suffering where they are and should be better off if they were uprooted from their school, from their friends and shipped off to the other home. What if Kyron had then cried when he had to leave Kaine after the visits? If he didn't cry because he was abused at the other home but because he was going to miss the parent he was leaving he could have cried wherever he lived. Would his living arrangements have been changed again?

Sometimes it takes the stronger and better parent not to fight for custody because custody fights can easily turn a reasonably well functioning amicable blended family situation into a totally toxic one and it's not in the best interest of the children. I'm not sure why mothers who have weekend visitation should be judged by different standards than fathers who have weekend visitation.

Kimster
09-15-2010, 02:49 PM
I've mentioned this before but it may have gotten lost. :)

I know for a FACT that if a parent lets the non-custodial parent keep a child for a certain number of days in a row in the State of Oregon, the non-custodial parent can get custody quite easily. I believe it is 60 or 90 days, I can't remember on that? :waitasec: Not only did my ex get custody of one of his kids in that way, I heard that fact coming from his attorney's mouth.

Also, if there is no change in circumstances for two years, in Oregon you cannot try to change custody of a child. After two years, you can go before the judge to try and change custody, but you'd better have a good reason. Oregon believes kids are better off in a stable environment and is loathe to change orders without good reason.

Believe me, my ex had some serious issues with the bio-mom and went round and round with her for years. I've heard it over and over.

cypress
09-15-2010, 02:49 PM
I've believed Terri to be responsible, but found the theory by Cypress to be very compelling and thought provoking.

But what about the RO that she hasn't challenged? Cypress, you didn't mention that. And, Gitana, I suspect this is your main reason for holding to the view that Terri really is guilty,

Would love to hear more from both sleuths.

I strongly believe if Terri hadn't sexted Michael Cook, Houze and Bunch would be fighting for custody/visitation of baby K. However, because of Terri's overall poor choices regarding Michael Cook, in addition to the general cloud of suspicion surrounding her as a result of Kyron's disappearance, her character was firmly, undeniably called into question. We know the sexting happened, so what else is true? What other poor choices has she made?

IMHO, Houze is going to eventually fight for, at minimum, visitation of the baby. Before then, though, Terri needs a better track record. IMHO, Terri living with her parents, keeping a low profile, staying out of trouble, and abiding by Houze's rules, is Houze's way of establishing that track record. If Terri has several months of living in ways that are deemed normal and acceptable then the situation with Michael Cook can be made an anomaly born out of stress as opposed to a way of life. IMHO, this is why Terri hasn't spoken to the press, made many public appearances, etc. I don't believe for a second Terri is hiding. IMHO, Houze gave Terri a set of guidelines laying out what she needed to do in order for him to work to get her daughter back (or at least see her). IMHO, Terri is working toward that end.

Ideally, Houze and Bunch want the abatement, but IMHO, Terri making the court appearance a few weeks ago was preparatory in nature. Her lawyers want what they want, but they will have a back-up plan, and IMHO, the back-up plan will not involve concessions. IMHO, Kaine and his attorney are expecting Terri and Houze to challenge the RO, which is why he dropped the contempt motion. He wants to be seen in a favorable light. Why would it matter if Kaine and his attorney believed Houze and Terri were going to quietly fade into the background?

I don't expect the abatement to be granted, but I do expect Houze and Bunch to defend Terri's rights and interests. Provided Terri adheres to the rules Houze has set forth and doesn't make any other blunders, I fully expect Houze and Bunch to challenge the RO when the abatement is denied. Time will tell, though.

Donjeta
09-15-2010, 02:56 PM
The sexting showed bad judgement in the circumstances but it is not a crime and it does not endanger the children if it's strictly between adults in their private moments. IMO mere sexting is not a reason to keep children from seeing their parents.

Aedrys
09-15-2010, 02:57 PM
I strongly believe if Terri hadn't sexted Michael Cook, Houze and Bunch would be fighting for custody/visitation of baby K. However, because of Terri's overall poor choices regarding Michael Cook, in addition to the general cloud of suspicion surrounding her as a result of Kyron's disappearance, her character was firmly, undeniably called into question. We know the sexting happened, so what else is true? What other poor choices has she made?

IMHO, Houze is going to eventually fight for, at minimum, visitation of the baby. Before then, though, Terri needs a better track record. IMHO, Terri living with her parents, keeping a low profile, staying out of trouble, and abiding by Houze's rules, is Houze's way of establishing that track record. If Terri has several months of living in ways that are deemed normal and acceptable then the situation with Michael Cook can be made an anomaly born out of stress as opposed to a way of life. IMHO, this is why Terri hasn't spoken to the press, made many public appearances, etc. I don't believe for a second Terri is hiding. IMHO, Houze gave Terri a set of guidelines laying out what she needed to do in order for him to work to get her daughter back (or at least see her). IMHO, Terri is working toward that end.

Ideally, Houze and Bunch want the abatement, but IMHO, Terri making the court appearance a few weeks ago was preparatory in nature. Her lawyers want what they want, but they will have a back-up plan, and IMHO, the back-up plan will not involve concessions. IMHO, Kaine and his attorney are expecting Terri and Houze to challenge the RO, which is why he dropped the contempt motion. He wants to be seen in a favorable light. Why would it matter if Kaine and his attorney believed Houze and Terri were going to quietly fade into the background?

I don't expect the abatement to be granted, but I do expect Houze and Bunch to defend Terri's rights and interests. Provided Terri adheres to the rules Houze has set forth and doesn't make any other blunders, I fully expect Houze and Bunch to challenge the RO when the abatement is denied. Time will tell, though.

I agree with this, but with what Kimster said about Oregon laws, she lets this go on too long, she won't get baby K back at all, good track record or not. Here's hoping, if she cares at all about her kids, that she won't let two years go by before fighting for baby K.

That and I do think it goes beyond Michael Cook. I'd add asking someone to murder her husband and being suspected of kidnapping/handing off/killing a child to that as well.

lynmaree
09-15-2010, 03:07 PM
The theories I've seen on this are primarily that she felt Kyron was abused in the home, Kaine was a bully, etc., so Terri *disappeared* him for his own safety. I've not seen any that put forth that Kyron was possibly abused outside the home. But point taken.

No worries Callope! I agree with you that most who support that theory bellieve it was Kaine or someone in the household...I just dont.

cypress
09-15-2010, 03:12 PM
I agree with this, but with what Kimster said about Oregon laws, she lets this go on too long, she won't get baby K back at all, good track record or not. Here's hoping, if she cares at all about her kids, that she won't let two years go by before fighting for baby K.

That and I do think it goes beyond Michael Cook. I'd add asking someone to murder her husband and being suspected of kidnapping/handing off/killing a child to that as well.

There's no proof Terri asked someone to murder her husband. It's basically he said/she said, and the he said part of that equation may not be all that reliable. Whatever circumstantial evidence LE have against Terri isn't, at present, enough for an arrest or an indictment. However, LE have proof that Terri sexted Michael Cook. They have proof she violated the RO. Alone, it's not that big of a deal, but with everything else, it is a big deal. It goes to her overall character. Her behavior was inappropriate. IMHO, that's not the question. What is the question, for me and perhaps those who will make decisions with regard to visitation, is her motivation. If Houze can prove that Terri is normally a responsible, level-headed adult who coped in an ugly and unhealthy way while at the center of this investigation, then that's compelling in her favor, but Houze needs to prove that her behavior with Michael Cook was an anomaly. Houze can't just say it was anomaly. Words wouldn't mean much, IMHO. If he can give proof, though, such as Terri living productively and in ways that convey discipline, adherence to rules, and good judgment then that is much more compelling in her favor and only strengthens his argument. It takes time to create that track record, though, which is why there's been such extreme silence, IMHO. I don't believe Houze and Bunch ever expected that the abatement would be granted, but they had to file it. IMHO, they've been preparing for the failure of their motion, and in that regard, every second counts.

Calliope
09-15-2010, 03:15 PM
I have heard gitana's feelings before on the restraining order, so I think I understand where she is coming from. As an attorney, gitana knows that Terri's lawyer HAD to tell her that if she does not contest the restraining order she will never get her daughter back. She may never even see her again. And many of you think that if Terri is completely innocent, she would not give up her daughter this way. I agree with you.

But...if we were to take Cypress's argument to the logical conclusion, Terri's emotional issues might mean that she WOULD put herself before her daughter. That if she felt threatened, even if she were completely innocent, she might risk never seeing her daughter again to keep herself out of jail. Maybe this "perfect mother" image has been too difficult to keep up any way....

Or, as I suspect her attorney has advised, she can not contest the RO and focus on the (obvious) bigger issue. Once that's put to rest then she can file for custody or visitation or whatever. If she fights the RO, guilty or not, she risks never seeing baby again.

Jo in Calif
09-15-2010, 03:18 PM
If you mean why (assuming that my theory that TH planned and took Kyron is correct) TH did what I think she did when she did it, then there could be a number of possibilities. I'm not sure what prompts anyone to decide "this is it. I can't take anymore and I'm doing this now.", a la scott peterson, Susan Smith, casey anthony, Diane Downs, etc. But in all of these cases, I believe that the person or persons they disappeared or killed became the source or symbol of their anguish, in their minds, over time, and they began planning how to get rid of the "problem". I think they either look for the best moment
possible to do what they want to do, or something specific happens that makes them determined to create that moment, instead of waiting for the "right" time. For example, I believe casey anthony decided in March 2008 to get rid of Caylee. She began thinking and planning. Then there was a terrible fight between her and her mother. That's when the planning sort of ended and the plan became a sudden reality. Just my theory.

I don't know TH or any of the people involved in this case and unlike some of the others mentioned above, I don't feel I have anywhere near the info I need to create a halfway credible psych profile. So my guesses are based on little things here and there, comments by people who know TH, her own e-mails, FB, etc. It's not enough for me to feel confident as to exactly what makes her tick. But my sense is that she could be the type who needs to feel adored and sexy by the person she's with. Hence, the several marriages - when the excitement of the new relationship ends, she gets out. (I'm just supposing here.) Perhaps the reality of marriage and family with a guy who seems to me not to be too emotive, kind of technical and perhaps wooden, began to press down on the fantasy of creating a family with a guy who left a more attractive woman (JMO), for TH, who maybe never felt attractive enough. "See? I am beautiful. I'm better than this woman who thinks she's so pretty. Her husband left her for me even though she was pregnant!", or whatever.
I have a friend who's like this. It's sad. She flits from man to man, marriage to marriage, very insecure about her looks, constantly getting bigger boobs, working out, redying her hair, having extended photo shoots of herself for no reason. And it seems her goal is to prove to herself that the guy she has her eye on, really, really wants her. The sex will be fantastic at first. She'll know this is the one. Everything she does will be to get this guy. And when she does, when he proves he wants her and wants to be committed, within a couple of months, she's done. It stems from her being a mousy but adorable little girl whose parents were cold and withheld love. When she became a teen and realized she could use her sexuality to get attention, boy she was off!
In any event, TH may be someone like this. Now she finds herself in a relationship in which the fantasy has faded and the reality is not so good. Maybe she begins to blame Kaine for the fading of the fantasy. Maybe she begins to also question her own worth and attractiveness as the reason reality is not what she expected. She may not understand that the excitement and passion of any new relationship cannot be sustained for long, especially when bills and problems, babies, barf, illness, and fights, sleep deprivation, work and the guy farting in the bed next to her, become the day to day. But she doesn't understand that this is normal. And due to deep-seated insecurities that she cannot face, she blames others. And due to possible other, more abnormal problems, like PPD, or a personality disorder, or whatever, that blame takes on a dangerous focus: "It's Kyron. He is the reason our life is not so good. He's always been in the way. If it was only me and Baby K and Kaine, things would be better. Kaine doesn't love me and the baby as much as he does Kyron. He needs to go. He's the problem. That will show Kaine too. I'll get him for not giving me what I deserve. Then, he'll learn. And DY too. She thinks she's all that. I know she does. She thinks she's a better mom than me. She thinks she's prettier than me. She probably thinks she can get Kaine back too. Well, I'll show her. She'll never get Kaine back and now she won't get Kyron back either. Then they'll see."
I believe that the thinking or criminals is convoluted and their reasoning complex. It doesn't make sense because it is abnormal. For example, in casey anthony's case, I think she saw Caylee as a burden who prevented her from being free to party, and also as a source of constant criticism and anger by her mother: "You aren't a good mom. You need to get a job and stay home and take care of your own baby." At the same time, she saw Caylee as usurping her place/role as the adored and spoiled princess of the family. And, she was horribly jealous and angry at her mom for trying to take her place as Caylee's mother. So, killing Caylee was a way to get rid of the burden, get back her place as princess, and punish her mother for criticizing her and for trying to be the mother to Caylee that casey was supposed to be. It's a mess.
Similar thinking may have taken place here. I do not believe this was precipitated by any affair on Kaine's part or anything like that. It was probably a combination of things for Terri that led to a growing obsession that Kyron was both the problem and the means for getting back at those TH feels wronged her or posed a threat to her. I believe this was planned but I don't know why, on that day. It could have been opportunity, it could have been a comment, anything, really. It's hard to understand a mind as disordered as that of a person who could harm a child. Who knows.
These are just theories I'm putting out there based on the scant info I have which may or may not be reality. It will be interesting to find out more. The reasoning of criminals and their psychology is something that I'm always trying to figure out. I guess as a way to perhaps protect myself and my loved ones from similar people that may come into our lives. But there is so little actual info in this case that I can only imagine.

I so love it when people type up the these theories for me, I type about 15 WPM. Thank you gitana1, I so totally agree with all of this.

gitana1
09-15-2010, 03:20 PM
But isn't "giving up her kids" exactly what DY has done? Twice?? From what I've read, she chose to not contest her sons' fathers' custody. Why then is she regarded with such admiration and TH, with scorn? If TH is not responsible for Kyron's disappearance, exactly what situation did she get herself into ?

The way I see it, the temporary RO is something that can wait to be dealt with once the truly damaging factor is over. TH and her attorney are now fully aware that she is a suspect (albeit unnamed) in Kyron's disappearance and probable death. Once that shadow of suspicion is removed from her officially, TH will have no problem with regaining custody of her daughter, if only on a shared basis.

On the other hand, if LE is able to find evidence sufficient to convict her of Kyron's disappearance, she will be imprisoned for a very long time and the baby will most likely never see her mother again.

I keep seeing this comparison and I take issue with it. It is not a fair analogy, IMO. DY did not give up her child. The first time, she was sick. I think she had cancer? She had no choice. After that, she did not fail to contest custody. She chose to not uproot Kyron once again, but she didn't give him up or away. She came up with an agreement that amounts to joint (but not equal) custody. She had Kyron on weekends, she had him for long blocks during vacations, she never gave up legal custody, to my knowledge and she was never barred from contact with her son, at any time. She saw him, she could call him, she had a room for him in which he stayed when with her every other week, she had the right to play a part in decision-making regarding Kyron. Terri Horman has NONE if those rights. She has no right to see, hold, speak to her baby or even be informed about what's happening in Baby K's life - if she gets sick, is hospitalized, enters a daycare, whatever. All TH has now and for the foreseeable future is empty arms and silence when it come to her daughter. That was NEVER the case with DY. The comparison is unfair, IMO. DY did what she thought was right despite her own feelings of wanting her child back with her full time. She decided not to change his environment once again. TH decided to do what was right for herself, with no regard for her babies' need to even have a small visit with her mommy once and a while. That's the difference and IMO it's a huge difference.
And as an attorney, I find the argument that TH has no choice because even if innocent, she opens herself up to prosecution if she contests the RO or custody, to be illogical and nonsensical. If she did not have a child with Kaine, it could make a bit more sense. But she does have a child with him, a child who, by all accounts, was her world. So I well know what her failure to contest that RO means. My opinion is based on my years in family law dealing with a multitude of contentious custody cases, DV RO's and contempts, etc. Such an argument holds no water for me.

lynmaree
09-15-2010, 03:26 PM
I keep seeing this comparison and I take issue with it. It is not a fair analogy, IMO. DY did not give up her child. The first time, she was sick. I think she had cancer? She had no choice. After that, she did not fail to contest custody. She chose to not uproot Kyron once again, but she didn't give him up or away. She came up with an agreement that amounts to joint (but not equal) custody. She had Kyron on weekends, she had him for long blocks during vacations, she never gave up legal custody, to my knowledge and she was never barred from contact with her son, at any time. She saw him, she could call him, she had a room for him in which he stayed when with her every other week, she had the right to play a part in decision-making regarding Kyron. Terri Horman has NONE if those rights. She has no right to see, hold, speak to her baby or even be informed about what's happening in Baby K's life - if she gets sick, is hospitalized, enters a daycare, whatever. All TH has now and for the foreseeable future is empty arms and silence when it come to her daughter. That was NEVER the case with DY. The comparison is unfair, IMO. DY did what she thought was right despite her own feelings of wanting her child back with her full time. She decided not to change his environment once again. TH decided to do what was right for herself, with no regard for her babies' need to even have a small visit with her mommy once and a while. That's the difference and IMO it's a huge difference.
And as an attorney, I find the argument that TH has no choice because even if innocent, she opens herself up to prosecution if she contests the RO or custody, to be illogical and nonsensical. If she did not have a child with Kaine, it could make a bit more sense. But she does have a child with him, a child who, by all accounts, was her world. So I well know what her failure to contest that RO means. My opinion is based on my years in family law dealing with a multitude of contentious custody cases, DV RO's and contempts, etc. Such an argument holds no water for me.

How I wish there was a way to hit the "thanks" button a million times!!!!

gitana1
09-15-2010, 03:33 PM
sorry, gitana--I posted this at the same time as you posted your response!

No. Thank you for your post. I have my reasons for thinking the way I do but there are interesting theories on here and the one you mentioned above is thought-provoking. I still hold to my opinion as to why TH failed to contest the RO and what it means. But I'm open to examining other theories for sure.

gitana1
09-15-2010, 03:50 PM
Or, as I suspect her attorney has advised, she can not contest the RO and focus on the (obvious) bigger issue. Once that's put to rest then she can file for custody or visitation or whatever. If she fights the RO, guilty or not, she risks never seeing baby again.

Actually, legally, failing to contest the RO is a bigger risk to her ability to ever see or have custody of Baby K again.

gitana1
09-15-2010, 05:29 PM
I feel my post 813 may come across as a bit more testy than I wanted it to. I do not mean to sound testy because I respect everyone's opinions so much. I have had a rough couple of days with three separate women crying in my office, a father who has been fighting since 2007 for a child who has a mentally disordered mother, and we were yet again in court yesterday and have to go yet again, tomorrow, and a poor lady and her extraordinary kids who all suffer from mental issues but are brilliant and loving and doing the best they can, but fighting to keep the state from once again taking the kids from this misunderstood home.
I say this for several reasons. One, because people who conduct themselves appropriately are rare in family law. It is rare that we see both sides willing to try to get along for the sake of their kids or one side willing to sacrifice for the best interest of the child. Those people don't need litigators to represent them so we don't see them much. I think DY was one of those people and I wish I could see more. So I feel testy when good decisions made in a setting that usually holds so much misery (family law), are questioned.
Also, I see so many people who are fighting hard for their kids, for their kids best interests, while the other side fights only for their own needs and wants. It is horrible for the concerned parent and horrible for the children. But it makes it quite obvious to me that good parents, loving parents, fight tooth and nail for their kids when they know that the best interests of those children is to be with and protected by their parent. So when a parent fails to fight for her child's right to be with the previously primary parent or to have that parent play any role in the child's life, on the off chance that she could say something or has done something that may be misconstrued and used against them criminally, especially when they have yet to be charged with anything at all, that speaks volumes to me.
In my case yesterday, this man started in 2007 with only every other Saturday with the son he raised until the divorce. Then I got involved. It has taken years and it has been slow, fighting against a very articulate and disordered mother, who abused the child and stole the child's assets, and a minor's counsel (GAL in other states), who was operating under a bias that her ego couldn't let go of, even after it was proved that her bias was unfounded - but now, my client has sole physical custody, and mom's grip on the child's life (and sanity) is almost totally loosened.
I see how hard the good guys fight for their kids. My client suffered in ways unimaginable. If mom had been okay, he would have been fine with her being involved, maybe even being the primary parent. But she wasn't.
As I have said before, the decision to not contest the RO has ramifications that will be very, very hard to undo, even if TH is someday cleared of wrongdoing in the disappearance of Kyron. Her attorneys know that. Kimster provided more info that supports that fact, regarding OR law. And there is no timetable for any of that. No charges have been brought so TH is facing, at the least, an endless wait to know whether she will ever be cleared. If she is prejudicing her rights to her child now so she can somehow come back one day and fight for the child again, she is also facing and endless wait for that day. Can you imagine?
So, my experience causes me to see things a certain way and to feel strongly about certain things. But I do not want to offend or to allow my biases to preclude other possibilities or opinions.

MarieFaith
09-15-2010, 05:46 PM
As I have said before, the decision to not contest the RO has ramifications that will be very, very hard to undo, even if TH is someday cleared of wrongdoing in the disappearance of Kyron. Her attorneys know that. Kimster provided more info that supports that fact, regarding OR law. And there is no timetable for any of that. No charges have been brought so TH is facing, at the least, an endless wait to know whether she will ever be cleared. If she is prejudicing her rights to her child now so she can somehow come back one day and fight for the child again, she is also facing and endless wait for that day. Can you imagine?
So, my experience causes me to see things a certain way and to feel strongly about certain things. But I do not want to offend or to allow my biases to preclude other possibilities or opinions.

Respectfully snipped, (I hope I did that right), now that LE is today saying they have no smoking gun and expecting another four months of investigating, it will be interesting to see if Terri comes out of hiding, and ventures to challenge the RO.

Do you think that's a possibility, gitana?

gitana1
09-15-2010, 06:20 PM
Respectfully snipped, (I hope I did that right), now that LE is today saying they have no smoking gun and expecting another four months of investigating, it will be interesting to see if Terri comes out of hiding, and ventures to challenge the RO.

Do you think that's a possibility, gitana?

My guess is she will absolutely not. It's too late to set aside the RO anyhow but she can contest custody and try to modify that. But I believe there is no way she will.

SacreBleu
09-15-2010, 06:57 PM
My guess is she will absolutely not. It's too late to set aside the RO anyhow but she can contest custody and try to modify that. But I believe there is no way she will.

This thank you is "landing randomly," as they say: but I so love reading your posts gitana. Thank you for lending your experience and expertise to this forum. I wish I could see you in action in court!

PS - there are lots of great posters here and I enjoy you all, btw. I just happen to think this particular guess as to what may have happend with Terri is a very plausible one.

just
09-16-2010, 04:24 PM
The sexting showed bad judgement in the circumstances but it is not a crime and it does not endanger the children if it's strictly between adults in their private moments. IMO mere sexting is not a reason to keep children from seeing their parents.

Definitely not. But in the context of 'hitting the gym' and then sexting while your stepson is being possibly tortured, molested or has been murdered is, to say the least, very very poor judgment. I simply can't imagine anyone who didn't even like their stepchild behaving the way she has behaved, unless she knows where Kyron is and what happened and doesn't care.

But sexting alone under different circumstances? No one I know would care and certainly wouldn't affect custody.

IMHO

Openmyeyes
09-16-2010, 06:06 PM
Combining yesterdays press conference comments and K & D's comments on Oprah today, I'm almost convinced that TMH had her own business, that only certain people knew about, that may require some sort of numbing to go into and is cash and carry.

Comments like 'where did she get 350k', 'I can't believe I let my child come over to your house knowing how she was', 'we are learning things we shouldn't know', 'she was inconvenienced', and how quickly she took up with MC.

I'm going to leave this where it is for now, and hope you guys use overripe tomatoes.

gardeness
09-16-2010, 07:50 PM
I can't help but wonder, if Terri is cleared, if the RO and custody of K might be handled in an unprecedented way... It might not matter how long K was in the custody of Kaine... my own speculation...moo

mmmagique
09-16-2010, 08:08 PM
I can't help but wonder, if Terri is cleared, if the RO and custody of K might be handled in an unprecedented way... It might not matter how long K was in the custody of Kaine... my own speculation...moo


Legally status quo always matters. From what I've read, Oregon takes it very seriously. Unless she starts fighting now, she can kiss custody goodbye. (imo)

just
09-16-2010, 08:50 PM
Combining yesterdays press conference comments and K & D's comments on Oprah today, I'm almost convinced that TMH had her own business, that only certain people knew about, that may require some sort of numbing to go into and is cash and carry.

Comments like 'where did she get 350k', 'I can't believe I let my child come over to your house knowing how she was', 'we are learning things we shouldn't know', 'she was inconvenienced', and how quickly she took up with MC.

I'm going to leave this where it is for now, and hope you guys use overripe tomatoes.

Nahhh, I'm with ya. I have felt all along, as I think most regarding this case have - whether they believe TH is being scapegoated or like myself believe she is responsible - that there is a balloon boy element to this, and by that I mean some huge lie or story that no one is allowed to talk about. Not the LE, not the parents. I can't shake the balloon boy feeling that something is very much not right. Anyone else still feel that way? Like aside from the obvious the LE can't give us any evidence or leads they have - there's just something more bizarre...:banghead:

SurfieTX
09-17-2010, 02:49 PM
I've been mulling this theory over in my head since the impromptu PC. I could be wayyy off in left field, though, but bear with me.

Terri was involved in something criminal (drugs/gambling/prostitution even?) She owed someone for something and inadvertently Kyron heard or saw the interaction. The criminal elements found out that Kyron knew, and Terri knew that Kyron was about to spill the beans to his mom and stepfather (LE). So, in order to protect Kyron and CYA a bit (or maybe prevent others from being endangered), she took Kyron from school that day. That part was planned. She knew she could stay out in public or try to protect him and baby K until the planned drop off with Tony (mainly!) and Desiree.

What wasn't planned was this criminal following her, Kyron and baby K from school that day. She noticed someone following her and hauled butt to FM in hopes of seeing some friends and/or being in a public place so they wouldn't approach her. But they did and snatched Kyron as "insurance" - insurance that she would keep quiet and pay up. Or they continued to follow her while she was "soothing" baby K. In reality, however, she was trying to lose them on the rural roads she knew so well, but that didn't work and she was cornered. In either scenario, this person grabbed Kyron.

She told DD and friends she had to get phones to get a lawyer, but in reality she was using these phones as a possible undetected contact to this criminal element. She knew if she told Kaine, the police, anyone - Kyron would be killed. So, she fails the polys because yes she does kind of know what happened and who took him, but not where he is or where he might end up. And she still hopes that by staying mum, this will all work out somehow.

After the RO, she enlists MC's help to find baby K to try to run with her to some "safe" and unknown place...all the while not betraying her vow to keep quiet. She can't and won't tell anyone because when and if she does, they are ALL in danger of being hurt, killed or kidnapped.

LE, after going through the tons of evidence, tips, and electronic records has now discovered this "big" network of whatever that has infiltrated Portland and the surrounding communities. Perhaps they already knew about it peripherally, but had no idea the people it involved (wealthy folks? politicians? LE?).

In the meantime, Terri is still staying quiet - perhaps on the advice of her attorney and perhaps on her own accord to protect her daughter, son, and parents (and maybe even Kaine, DY and TY).

I know this scenario makes her seem like the biggest martyr in the world and/or a bad novel or movie, but I guess anything is possible.

PS. In order to poke holes in my plot, because she managed to get a questionable sum of money for Houze, I'd have to assume at some point prior to Houze, she had run out of time and Kyron was killed by this criminal element and she knew that to be true; however, that did not absolve her of her debt. As she is under such heavy surveillance, there is no feasible way to enact a transaction with this criminal element.

human
09-17-2010, 09:52 PM
here are some more records on TH

TERRI L MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DDOU B312369DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 03/07/1996 OFFENSE DATE: 03/06/1996
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


TERRI L MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX:
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DLAN 9600627DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 01/24/1996 OFFENSE DATE: 01/23/1996
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX:
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: CLAN 0401922DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00001 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 04/06/2004 OFFENSE DATE: 04/04/2004
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Violation
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE: Caucasian
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 506
EYE COLOR: Brown
HAIR COLOR: Red
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: CMAR 05C48454DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00001 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 07/25/2005 OFFENSE DATE: 07/10/2005
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Misdemeanor I
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE: Caucasian
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 506
EYE COLOR: Brown
HAIR COLOR: Red
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: CMAR 05C48454DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 10/05/2005
COUNTS: 00002 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 07/25/2005 OFFENSE DATE: 07/10/2005
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Misdemeanor I
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DCOO B9039827DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 04/17/1990 OFFENSE DATE: 04/15/1990
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DCOO B9039828DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 04/17/1990 OFFENSE DATE: 04/15/1990
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DDOU 09895533DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 09/22/1988 OFFENSE DATE: 09/20/1988
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DDOU0891A53436DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 08/21/1991 OFFENSE DATE: 08/20/1991
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:

pufnstuf
09-17-2010, 10:01 PM
OK... Here is one of my theories so far:

Motive: Kaine's Life Insurance, "substantial" Savings, Estate. Must take Kyron out of the picture before Kaine "dies," so that Kyron won't inherit the hefty child's portion. She didn't want to raise Kyron anyway--she secretly loathed him after K****, her REAL child, was born. She could just send him back to Desiree, but Desiree would gain control of Kyron's part of Kaine's estate, and Terri couldn't stand that thought.

Opportunity: Last big event day at school, chaotic, lots of people = plausible deniability. Terri had been planning this since the school year began. She had already started planning it by November 2009: a photo of Kyron on her facebook on K****'s November birthday has the caption "Kyron's class (Ms. Porter). Where was Kyron do you ask? Yeah, he went to the bathroom without telling anyone. *sigh*." And two weeks before the actual plan would be implemented, Terri told people at school that Kyron had been having "mini-seizures." I think that she had always planned for Kyron to die before Kaine--when she approached the landscaper about murder-for-hire, she was just getting her ducks in a row prior to taking out Kyron.

Theory: The morning of Kyron's science fair, Terri borrows Kaine's truck, using the excuse that she will be picking Kyron's project up after the science fair is over. (We know now that that project is retained by LE.)

Kaine leaves for work, and at 8:10, after Terri wraps up her FB games (last entry on FB was Family Feud at 8:01AM) and gets the things together that she'll need for the day, she loads K**** and Kyron into the truck.

At 8:30 Terri, Kyron, and K**** arrive at school. They go to Kyron's room, and Terri snaps the photo of him with his project. She also snaps a few other photos, like the one of Kyron's friend Ku***s' project, because she wants to look totally engaged in what's going on at Skyline.

While at the science fair, Terri tells Kyron's teacher that K**** isn't feeling well, and she also mentions that Kyron has a doctor's appointment for the mini-seizure thing. After all, it's noisy with so many kids and parents around, so Terri can get away with the doctor's appointment thing by later telling investigators, "But she must not have understood--I was talking about next Friday." Again, plausible deniability.

At 8:45, all students return to their classrooms. Kyron does not. Terri tells Kyron that she's taking him to the doctor, but they won't be there long, and he'll be back at school before lunch. At 8:45, all students and teachers are in their classrooms being divided up into groups and assigned an adult to tour with each group, so now is the perfect time to scram. Sometime between 8:45 and 9:00, Terri sends Kyron to the truck without her, because she can always say, "Oh, he forgot his ____ (lunchbox, pencil, whatever) in the truck," if someone sees him leave. After she's sure that Kyron's at the truck, Terri ducks out.

I think that Terri was trying to kill time from 9:00 until 10:00, to see if anyone from Skyline would notice Kyron missing. She couldn't act until 10:15, when she would be positive that roll had been taken as kids came back from their tour of the science fair. Kyron had to be kept alive from 9:00-10:15. Once 10:15 passed, she'd know that so far she was in the clear. While she was killing time between 9 and 10, Terri bought some benadryl at FM1, gave it to Kyron, and then drove a bit until it began to take effect. At FM2, Terri planned to spend more time inside, so she had to make sure that Kyron wouldn't get out of the truck and blow everything. (**see note)

**OK... here's where I can't figure it out. HOW was Terri able to go into two FMs between 9 and 10 without risking Kyron getting out of the truck and being seen. There are three possibilities: 1) Terri threatened Kyron within an inch of his life and told him to stay in the truck--and trusted that he would. Or 2) Someone else helped Terri and sat in the truck with Kyron, keeping him occupied. Or 3) He already knows that something is terribly wrong, as Terri has restrained him and has used plastic straps to secure his feet and hands to the front-seat brackets. He is lying on the floorboard behind the front seats, mouth duct taped, no way he can scream, covered by a blanket. Would Terri take such a chance, given that the school might call any moment to verify Kyron's absence? I think she would take such a chance... she knew that this would be her last opportunity until next school year. She took a risk, and was as nervous as a hooker in church from 9:00 til 10:15, hoping beyond hope that her earlier manipulations at the school had worked.


Back to the story: 10:15 arrives, and there's no call from Skyline, so Terri knows the plan can proceed. By now, Kyron is sedated, sleeping from the benadryl, so she drives to a secluded place, gets Kyron out of the truck, and then finally she does it. She kills Kyron. With her own daughter not ten feet from where her big brother is being murdered. Terri either strangles him or duct tapes his nose and mouth Casey-Anthony-style. She puts him in a garbage bag and then a duffel bag (or possibly a sterlite container like the ones on her back patio that is seen in numerous photos), to prevent any leakage in the truck. It's 10:45 now, so Terri calls Dede and tells her it's time to meet. She places the duffel bag or container in the bed of the pick-up. She takes a moment to calm herself...her adrenaline is pumping like mad through her veins.

At 10:45 after getting the call from Terri, Dede ducks away from her assigned task at Westwind, and she goes into the woods and stops in the edge of the woods where she has clear sight of the road, but where no one can see her. At 11:00, Dede sees Terri coming down the road, steps out, and gets in the truck with her.

Dede knows what she has to do, and she knows that time is very limited. Dede takes Terri to the gym, where Terri checks in at 11:39 and then puts K**** in daycare. Dede drives off to dispose of Kyron's body. She removes him from the canvas bag, and then from the garbage bag (or from the container). And dumps him. Or she buries him in the duffel bag or container. Where is unknown. But it's not in the Skyline area. It's south of Terri's gym, where no one would think to look.

At the gym, Terri goes to the shower first, takes a quick shower (but doesn't wash her hair), and puts on her workout clothes. She puts the clothes that she had worn that morning in an FM bag and puts it back into her gym bag. (There have been some suggestions that she may have had a duplicate set of clothing that she wore that morning, just in case LE asked her to turn over the clothes she was wearing. It's possible. In that case, she bags the clothes she had worn, disposes of them in a dumpster on the way home, and has the duplicate set of clothing ready to turn over, if LE should ask.) Terri does a quick work out at the gym, doesn't even break a sweat, and her batphone rings... it's Dede telling her it's done.

Dede leaves the dump site at 12:30 and heads back to pick up Terri and K****. Terri gets K**** from daycare and then signs out of the gym at 12:40. She gets in the truck with Dede. Terri drops Dede off at the woodline of Westwind, and Dede heads back through the woods to the site where she was working that morning.

Terri's home by 1:15 and on the computer. She uploads the photos of Kyron and the science fair at 1:21. Kaine arrives home at 2:00. He asks Terri why she didn't bring Kyron's science fair project home, and she tells Kaine that Kiara got sick at the science fair, so she had to leave to get Kiara some medicine, and then she drove around awhile to soothe her, and, well, you know how time gets away from ya. She assures him that she'll just pick it up Monday.

At 3:30, there's no Kyron on the bus, beginning the search for Kyron.


******************************************

I'm not completely committed to this theory. It's just one way to explain what few facts we know about what happened that day. Now go to work punching holes in it--I will NOT be offended.

gardeness
09-17-2010, 10:07 PM
OK... Here is one of my theories so far:

Motive: Kaine's Life Insurance, "substantial" Savings, Estate. Must take Kyron out of the picture before Kaine "dies," so that Kyron won't inherit the hefty child's portion. She didn't want to raise Kyron anyway--she secretly loathed him after K****, her REAL child, was born. She could just send him back to Desiree, but Desiree would gain control of Kyron's part of Kaine's estate, and Terri couldn't stand that thought.

Opportunity: Last big event day at school, chaotic, lots of people = plausible deniability. Terri had been planning this since the school year began. She had already started planning it by November 2009: a photo of Kyron on her facebook on K****'s November birthday has the caption "Kyron's class (Ms. Porter). Where was Kyron do you ask? Yeah, he went to the bathroom without telling anyone. *sigh*." And two weeks before the actual plan would be implemented, Terri told people at school that Kyron had been having "mini-seizures." I think that she had always planned for Kyron to die before Kaine--when she approached the landscaper about murder-for-hire, she was just getting her ducks in a row prior to taking out Kyron.

Theory: The morning of Kyron's science fair, Terri borrows Kaine's truck, using the excuse that she will be picking Kyron's project up after the science fair is over. (We know now that that project is retained by LE.)

Kaine leaves for work, and at 8:10, after Terri wraps up her FB games (last entry on FB was Family Feud at 8:01AM) and gets the things together that she'll need for the day, she loads K**** and Kyron into the truck.

At 8:30 Terri, Kyron, and K**** arrive at school. They go to Kyron's room, and Terri snaps the photo of him with his project. She also snaps a few other photos, like the one of Kyron's friend Ku***s' project, because she wants to look totally engaged in what's going on at Skyline.

While at the science fair, Terri tells Kyron's teacher that K**** isn't feeling well, and she also mentions that Kyron has a doctor's appointment for the mini-seizure thing. After all, it's noisy with so many kids and parents around, so Terri can get away with the doctor's appointment thing by later telling investigators, "But she must not have understood--I was talking about next Friday." Again, plausible deniability.

At 8:45, all students return to their classrooms. Kyron does not. Terri tells Kyron that she's taking him to the doctor, but they won't be there long, and he'll be back at school before lunch. At 8:45, all students and teachers are in their classrooms being divided up into groups and assigned an adult to tour with each group, so now is the perfect time to scram. Sometime between 8:45 and 9:00, Terri sends Kyron to the truck without her, because she can always say, "Oh, he forgot his ____ (lunchbox, pencil, whatever) in the truck," if someone sees him leave. After she's sure that Kyron's at the truck, Terri ducks out.

I think that Terri was trying to kill time from 9:00 until 10:00, to see if anyone from Skyline would notice Kyron missing. She couldn't act until 10:15, when she would be positive that roll had been taken as kids came back from their tour of the science fair. Kyron had to be kept alive from 9:00-10:15. Once 10:15 passed, she'd know that so far she was in the clear. While she was killing time between 9 and 10, Terri bought some benadryl at FM1, gave it to Kyron, and then drove a bit until it began to take effect. At FM2, Terri planned to spend more time inside, so she had to make sure that Kyron wouldn't get out of the truck and blow everything. (**see note)

**OK... here's where I can't figure it out. HOW was Terri able to go into two FMs between 9 and 10 without risking Kyron getting out of the truck and being seen. There are three possibilities: 1) Terri threatened Kyron within an inch of his life and told him to stay in the truck--and trusted that he would. Or 2) Someone else helped Terri and sat in the truck with Kyron, keeping him occupied. Or 3) He already knows that something is terribly wrong, as Terri has restrained him and has used plastic straps to secure his feet and hands to the front-seat brackets. He is lying on the floorboard behind the front seats, mouth duct taped, no way he can scream, covered by a blanket. Would Terri take such a chance, given that the school might call any moment to verify Kyron's absence? I think she would take such a chance... she knew that this would be her last opportunity until next school year. She took a risk, and was as nervous as a hooker in church from 9:00 til 10:15, hoping beyond hope that her earlier manipulations at the school had worked.


Back to the story: 10:15 arrives, and there's no call from Skyline, so Terri knows the plan can proceed. By now, Kyron is sedated, sleeping from the benadryl, so she drives to a secluded place, gets Kyron out of the truck, and then finally she does it. She kills Kyron. With her own daughter not ten feet from where her big brother is being murdered. Terri either strangles him or duct tapes his nose and mouth Casey-Anthony-style. She puts him in a garbage bag and then a duffel bag (or possibly a sterlite container like the ones on her back patio that is seen in numerous photos), to prevent any leakage in the truck. It's 10:45 now, so Terri calls Dede and tells her it's time to meet. She places the duffel bag or container in the bed of the pick-up. She takes a moment to calm herself...her adrenaline is pumping like mad through her veins.

At 10:45 after getting the call from Terri, Dede ducks away from her assigned task at Westwind, and she goes into the woods and stops in the edge of the woods where she has clear sight of the road, but where no one can see her. At 11:00, Dede sees Terri coming down the road, steps out, and gets in the truck with her.

Dede knows what she has to do, and she knows that time is very limited. Dede takes Terri to the gym, where Terri checks in at 11:39 and then puts K**** in daycare. Dede drives off to dispose of Kyron's body. She removes him from the canvas bag, and then from the garbage bag (or from the container). And dumps him. Or she buries him in the duffel bag or container. Where is unknown. But it's not in the Skyline area. It's south of Terri's gym, where no one would think to look.

At the gym, Terri goes to the shower first, takes a quick shower (but doesn't wash her hair), and puts on her workout clothes. She puts the clothes that she had worn that morning in an FM bag and puts it back into her gym bag. (There have been some suggestions that she may have had a duplicate set of clothing that she wore that morning, just in case LE asked her to turn over the clothes she was wearing. It's possible. In that case, she bags the clothes she had worn, disposes of them in a dumpster on the way home, and has the duplicate set of clothing ready to turn over, if LE should ask.) Terri does a quick work out at the gym, doesn't even break a sweat, and her batphone rings... it's Dede telling her it's done.

Dede leaves the dump site at 12:30 and heads back to pick up Terri and K****. Terri gets K**** from daycare and then signs out of the gym at 12:40. She gets in the truck with Dede. Terri drops Dede off at the woodline of Westwind, and Dede heads back through the woods to the site where she was working that morning.

Terri's home by 1:15 and on the computer. She uploads the photos of Kyron and the science fair at 1:21. Kaine arrives home at 2:00. He asks Terri why she didn't bring Kyron's science fair project home, and she tells Kaine that Kiara got sick at the science fair, so she had to leave to get Kiara some medicine, and then she drove around awhile to soothe her, and, well, you know how time gets away from ya. She assures him that she'll just pick it up Monday.

At 3:30, there's no Kyron on the bus, beginning the search for Kyron.


******************************************

I'm not completely committed to this theory. It's just one way to explain what few facts we know about what happened that day. Now go to work punching holes in it--I will NOT be offended.

After the presser yesterday, I have been wondering if DeDe is out of the picture...

loves2bmom
09-17-2010, 10:16 PM
Human...thanks for pulling up all those charges. I went through them about a month ago and they are all traffic violations with the exception of her DUI in July of '05. Still...I was curious as to why they even show up if they are just traffic violations. Maybe she fought them all in court or something? I couldn't figure it out as none of my violations come up when I do a background search on myself. I had one ticket about 10 years ago here in Oregon. Simple speeding, just paid the fine. I also had one bigger speeding in California where I was going 30 miles over the limit. Yeah, I know...bad...it was a fancy red sports car. :blushing: But I HAD to go to court for that one. It was dismissed because the officer didn't show up. I was very lucky! None of my tickets show up for me. I just can't figure out why so many show up for TH...even old ones from when she was 18..weird. :confused:

just
09-18-2010, 01:02 AM
OK... Here is one of my theories so far:

Motive: Kaine's Life Insurance, "substantial" Savings, Estate. Must take Kyron out of the picture before Kaine "dies," so that Kyron won't inherit the hefty child's portion. She didn't want to raise Kyron anyway--she secretly loathed him after K****, her REAL child, was born. She could just send him back to Desiree, but Desiree would gain control of Kyron's part of Kaine's estate, and Terri couldn't stand that thought....(considerably snipped!)


******************************************

I'm not completely committed to this theory. It's just one way to explain what few facts we know about what happened that day. Now go to work punching holes in it--I will NOT be offended.

Hey PufNStuff, I'm with you on most of it, but...I don't think DDS was involved. I just don't know that she could murder a child for a person that she's known a year. I think she's just naive and/or stupid and TH has filled her head with stories of evil Kaine and she's bought them, hook line and sinker - along with her being demonized by the media - yeah right. Anyways...

I think it went down like this:

Either:

TH couldn't kill KH for the money, so sets her sights on Kyron to spite KH, maybe get insurance, and then at a later date will get rid of KH too and get all the insurance (Intel employees are well paid and have good life insurance)

OR

TH has a gambling, drug, SO, criminal issue (mafia-ish) side to her and she gives/sells Kyron to pay off the debt (and to spite KH).

Either way, she then does the following:

I think she got to the science fair early (8:15) and made her rounds. I also believe she and Kyron, and/or she alone went back and forth to the truck a few times just to confuse people's memories (i.e., if they saw her and when, if she was with Kyron or not).

I think around 8:40 she told Kyron he could go see 'the electric one' or whatever but as soon as the second bell rang (I don't know what time they're bells ring), he needed to meet her around the side door where she had picked him up before ( I believe she has picked him up from this exit before in her pre-planning). She walks out one way, he walks the other, then leaves when the first or second bell rings, as planned. He exits via the side exit and runs along the path through the overgrown grass sight unseen to the truck.

If there is this second person and I think there is, (remember DY's slip of the tongue when she said words to the effect of 'why would Kyron be outside by the truck in the first place with some stranger' --I believe people DID see Kyron by the truck with a stranger, but did not see Kyron get in because TH pulled it round the side for that.

I think she drove somewhere close by without her accomplice (who had his/her own vehicle) and handed Kyron off to to him/her. This is a lover with a prison record, an SO who is only to happy to take him, or someone else that she needs to pay off a debt too. I think from LE's comments about 'disturbing' information, we can assume that Terri is not just a sociopath but quite possibly a wicked SO/child porn purveyor herself, so this wouldn't bother her to be that cruel.

At any rate, then she zooms around town getting receipts from places and making certain to not only be seen, but talks to people (i.e., woman at Freddie's who herself said it was weird Terri called her over and purposely showed that picture) -- as well as keep tabs on if the school is looking for Kyron.

I think PufNStuf you're right on the nose that she waited until past 10 to see if anyone called confirming Kyron was absent, and when they didn't, her signal to her accomplice that things were okay was NOT calling them - the accomplice now does whatever - takes out of state or country or stays local, I really don't know. Maybe she meets him/her at SI for a chat.

Then to be doubly sure nobody suspected her, TH gets home and writes the teacher about when she could pick up the project at 1 PM and sure enough, no alarms - no one says 'where's Kyron.' The plan's still a go.

Now...the reasons for TH doing this...that's a toughy - spite, hate, money or necessity (as in she will be killed if she doesn't pay off a debt?) The reasons the accomplice is keeping quiet - he's already a criminal, maybe an SO or an illegal immigrant, and even if not, we certainly can't assume he/she cares at all about DY and KH and may even enjoy their pain.

So there ya have it - the only thing I don't think TH counted on was being suspected and all the national publicity. The look on her face from day one was fear - fear of being caught.

nonfictionrocks
09-18-2010, 01:06 AM
OK... Here is one of my theories so far:

Motive:Kaine's Life Insurance, "substantial" Savings, Estate. Must take Kyron out of the picture before Kaine "dies," so that Kyron won't inherit the hefty child's portion. She didn't want to raise Kyron anyway--she secretly loathed him after K****, her REAL child, was born. She could just send him back to Desiree, but Desiree would gain control of Kyron's part of Kaine's estate, and Terri couldn't stand that thought.


I'm not completely committed to this theory. It's just one way to explain what few facts we know about what happened that day. Now go to work punching holes in it--I will NOT be offended.

Respectfully snipped and BBM

Wow Pufnstuf, you have certainly put a lot of thought into this posting and pack a punch in each paragraph - LOL.

I'd like to start with your first paragraph. You quoted life insurance and other than maybe insurance through his work, are we sure he has any policies that he paid monthly and if TH was the beneficiary? In the north where I reside, as part of our "extended health care" benefits we can opt to have insurance but the pay outs are not huge, usually a year's salary but in most cases this is a deduction off our take home pay. I do not claim to know what Intel offers their employees and if you know, please tell me as I am very interested in knowing this information.

Now on to Kaine's "substantial" savings.

Do we know for sure that the house was even paid off? Was there a mortgage or perhaps a second mortgage because some people know that one of the major influences of the recent market problems has been because people were borrowing on equity of a house that no longer holds the value of the loan anymore. In other words, if you tried to sell your home you might not get what you owe or paid for it.

What about debt? Both my husband and I work full time and probably combined, make more than KH, we have 2 children under the age of 10 and none of our vehicles are newer than 1999. I wish hubby would surprise me with a Mustang for Mother's Day too! Should anything happen to my husband, no matter how tragic, I don't see VISA or any bank just wiping out our account because they feel sorry for me.

"Estate", although I realize that this is the proper terminology, it sounds a bit Howard Huges like to me. His "estate" might consist of mortgage insurance that pays off the house (not sure about a second mortgage though), the savings that apparently TH was "spending like water" and the life insurance (if left to TH) might have to be used to pay any of KH's (and TH's) debt. Before I can make a judgement call on this "estate" I would want to know roughly how much KH would be worth dead versus how much he actually owes before I buy the MFH plot and the substantial gain TH has by eliminating the little boy first.

The last part of this bolded paragraph, "Desiree gaining control" and "Terri couldn't stand the thought" are along the same line as my "Howard Huges" comment and a bit OTT.

I know that all of these points were just your opinion - the same with me :couch:

human
09-18-2010, 01:07 AM
Human...thanks for pulling up all those charges. I went through them about a month ago and they are all traffic violations with the exception of her DUI in July of '05. Still...I was curious as to why they even show up if they are just traffic violations. Maybe she fought them all in court or something? I couldn't figure it out as none of my violations come up when I do a background search on myself. I had one ticket about 10 years ago here in Oregon. Simple speeding, just paid the fine. I also had one bigger speeding in California where I was going 30 miles over the limit. Yeah, I know...bad...it was a fancy red sports car. :blushing: But I HAD to go to court for that one. It was dismissed because the officer didn't show up. I was very lucky! None of my tickets show up for me. I just can't figure out why so many show up for TH...even old ones from when she was 18..weird. :confused:

I saw yours as well and the explanations that were for her traffic violations. If you look at the ones that i posted, they are are for drug/alcohol violations which are different than the traffic ones that you posted.

human
09-18-2010, 01:08 AM
puf, I think your theory makes a lot of sense.

Kaine would have Intel stock options as part of his package.

The house would be free and clear if he had mortgage insurance, which would be very inexpensive at his age. A free house to live in is nothing to sneeze at. That is huge. No house payments.

Life insurance when you don't have to pay a house payment or rent is a nice little option, I feel.

Then there are the survivor benefits for herself and the baby. I think that she could live quite comfortably on all of that.

scandi
09-18-2010, 01:18 AM
I have to warn you that threads like this turn into general discussion.
so please post your theories and then move on. If this turns into a GD thread it will be closed.

If you are unable to post your theory because you suspect the family,do the best you can.

How neat! "If you are unable to post your theory because you suspect the family,do the best you can".

Ya gotta love our Bean. Ya Ya

sorrell skye
09-18-2010, 01:31 AM
:waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec:

scandi
09-18-2010, 01:35 AM
Hey PufNStuff, I'm with you on most of it, but...I don't think DDS was involved. I just don't know that she could murder a child for a person that she's known a year. I think she's just naive and/or stupid and TH has filled her head with stories of evil Kaine and she's bought them, hook line and sinker - along with her being demonized by the media - yeah right. Anyways...

I think it went down like this:

Either:

TH couldn't kill KH for the money, so sets her sights on Kyron to spite KH, maybe get insurance, and then at a later date will get rid of KH too and get all the insurance (Intel employees are well paid and have good life insurance)

OR

TH has a gambling, drug, SO, criminal issue (mafia-ish) side to her and she gives/sells Kyron to pay off the debt (and to spite KH).

Either way, she then does the following:

I think she got to the science fair early (8:15) and made her rounds. I also believe she and Kyron, and/or she alone went back and forth to the truck a few times just to confuse people's memories (i.e., if they saw her and when, if she was with Kyron or not).

I think around 8:40 she told Kyron he could go see 'the electric one' or whatever but as soon as the second bell rang (I don't know what time they're bells ring), he needed to meet her around the side door where she had picked him up before ( I believe she has picked him up from this exit before in her pre-planning). She walks out one way, he walks the other, then leaves when the first or second bell rings, as planned. He exits via the side exit and runs along the path through the overgrown grass sight unseen to the truck.

If there is this second person and I think there is, (remember DY's slip of the tongue when she said words to the effect of 'why would Kyron be outside by the truck in the first place with some stranger' --I believe people DID see Kyron by the truck with a stranger, but did not see Kyron get in because TH pulled it round the side for that.

I think she drove somewhere close by without her accomplice (who had his/her own vehicle) and handed Kyron off to to him/her. This is a lover with a prison record, an SO who is only to happy to take him, or someone else that she needs to pay off a debt too. I think from LE's comments about 'disturbing' information, we can assume that Terri is not just a sociopath but quite possibly a wicked SO/child porn purveyor herself, so this wouldn't bother her to be that cruel.

At any rate, then she zooms around town getting receipts from places and making certain to not only be seen, but talks to people (i.e., woman at Freddie's who herself said it was weird Terri called her over and purposely showed that picture) -- as well as keep tabs on if the school is looking for Kyron.

I think PufNStuf you're right on the nose that she waited until past 10 to see if anyone called confirming Kyron was absent, and when they didn't, her signal to her accomplice that things were okay was NOT calling them - the accomplice now does whatever - takes out of state or country or stays local, I really don't know. Maybe she meets him/her at SI for a chat.

Then to be doubly sure nobody suspected her, TH gets home and writes the teacher about when she could pick up the project at 1 PM and sure enough, no alarms - no one says 'where's Kyron.' The plan's still a go.

Now...the reasons for TH doing this...that's a toughy - spite, hate, money or necessity (as in she will be killed if she doesn't pay off a debt?) The reasons the accomplice is keeping quiet - he's already a criminal, maybe an SO or an illegal immigrant, and even if not, we certainly can't assume he/she cares at all about DY and KH and may even enjoy their pain.

So there ya have it - the only thing I don't think TH counted on was being suspected and all the national publicity. The look on her face from day one was fear - fear of being caught.

Purdy good Just, lol

The 'weird music' youtube says she killed Kyron on Brooks Rd. It is the road that takes off right next to the church across from the school. I drove down there and after a block or so realized it was like a straight road down a long hill and back up again with little driveways going off to the homes. Then, driving back towards the school I realized she could have pulled in to the left right away and turned into the back parking lot of the church. It was about the only place I could see her having an opportunity that was pretty clear to commit murder in a car and not be seen.

So I think you are correct on that point that she drove someplace close by and turned off the engine briefly. Then I think she drove down to Newberry Rd and met someone by that field that was searched {her truck was seen there I believe}, and turned him over to someone else. She then jetted down Newberry to Hwy #30, took a left and then went over the SI bridge where a friend met her, as they drove wildly side by side, panicked about what to do now that everything was done. From there she backtracked up to Freddies. I think the time line would fit. Gosh, I wish I knew what the truth is without having to speculate. :innocent:

sorrell skye
09-18-2010, 01:39 AM
Here's what I come up with when I connect the currently available dots:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrbpuGE_GHF0cQ399wkMh2T94Kajr-9ToqpjAj9gsoLpFlVeI&t=1&usg=__tUBt7Z8Vf6S3Pr0UJULRMqGl5pc=

Can anyone tell me what this looks like?

just
09-18-2010, 01:48 AM
Purdy good Just, lol

The 'weird music' youtube says she killed Kyron on Brooks Rd. It is the road that takes off right next to the church across from the school. I drove down there and after a block or so realized it was like a straight road down a long hill and back up again with little driveways going off to the homes. Then, driving back towards the school I realized she could have pulled in to the left right away and turned into the back parking lot of the church. It was about the only place I could see her having an opportunity that was pretty clear to commit murder in a car and not be seen.

So I think you are correct on that point that she drove someplace close by and turned off the engine briefly. Then I think she drove down to Newberry Rd and met someone by that field that was searched {her truck was seen there I believe}, and turned him over to someone else. She then jetted down Newberry to Hwy #30, took a left and then went over the SI bridge where a friend met her, as they drove wildly side by side, panicked about what to do now that everything was done. From there she backtracked up to Freddies. I think the time line would fit. Gosh, I wish I knew what the truth is without having to speculate. :innocent:

You know, I want to believe he's alive, but it's certainly more likely, statistically, that he's not. I do think if she murdered him it was just like you said, very fast, close by and all the driving was her freaking out and meeting with her accomplice (versus calling them). And then the reason the LE stated that they've learned 'disturbing things' is that they've seen that she plotted how to murder this little kid for months, maybe bragged to people about it, or solicited ideas from SO's - who knows. Here's a true didja know...hard drives on computers, even if completely erased with a new operating system put on them - still store your old info. Uh yep. So maybe she did her own sick sleuthing pre-murder, erased her hard drive (so she thought) and when the forensic computer specialists saw the way in which she researched carrying it out, it was 'disturbing'and heartbreaking.

sorrell skye
09-18-2010, 01:53 AM
If LE has evidence that TH *plotted to murder* Kyron for months, then why hasn't the GJ returned an indictment?

sorrell skye
09-18-2010, 01:54 AM
Evidence is Evidence is Evidence.

You either have it, or you don't.

just
09-18-2010, 02:18 AM
If LE has evidence that TH *plotted to murder* Kyron for months, then why hasn't the GJ returned an indictment?

I don't think anyone can be arrested for researching ways to kill people. I really doubt she typed in Google "Going to kill Kyron Horman need techniques, tools"

sorrell skye
09-18-2010, 02:50 AM
I don't think anyone can be arrested for researching ways to kill people. I really doubt she typed in Google "Going to kill Kyron Horman need techniques, tools"

LOL.

Of course not.

Nevertheless, Evidence is Evidence is Evidence.

LE either has it, or they don't.

If there was electronic evidence (computer or otherwise) that "TH had plotted to murder Kyron for months and that she had maybe bragged to people about it, or solicited ideas from SO's" - then I have to wonder why the GJ has not yet handed down an indictment.

pufnstuf
09-18-2010, 03:21 AM
Here's what I come up with when I connect the currently available dots:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrbpuGE_GHF0cQ399wkMh2T94Kajr-9ToqpjAj9gsoLpFlVeI&t=1&usg=__tUBt7Z8Vf6S3Pr0UJULRMqGl5pc=

Can anyone tell me what this looks like?

Me on Sunday morning? :D

just
09-18-2010, 04:58 AM
LOL.

Of course not.

Nevertheless, Evidence is Evidence is Evidence.

LE either has it, or they don't.

If there was electronic evidence (computer or otherwise) that "TH had plotted to murder Kyron for months and that she had maybe bragged to people about it, or solicited ideas from SO's" - then I have to wonder why the GJ has not yet handed down an indictment.

I was speaking to the 'disturbing' things they came across when reviewing her computer hard drive (they never said they reviewed her hard drive, this is my assumption) and not 'hard evidence,' but I get your point. I think little missy sextress had some seriously sick photos and posts. That's all I'm sayin'. And I'm related to Sorrells so we're practically family. :dance:

just
09-18-2010, 05:00 AM
Here's what I come up with when I connect the currently available dots:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrbpuGE_GHF0cQ399wkMh2T94Kajr-9ToqpjAj9gsoLpFlVeI&t=1&usg=__tUBt7Z8Vf6S3Pr0UJULRMqGl5pc=

Can anyone tell me what this looks like?

If you squint, you can see a man's face facing left...and it's...Santa?

mmmagique
09-18-2010, 06:00 AM
OK... Here is one of my theories so far:

Motive:Opportunity: Terri had been planning this since the school year began. She had already started planning it by November 2009: a photo of Kyron on her facebook on K****'s November birthday has the caption "Kyron's class (Ms. Porter). Where was Kyron do you ask? Yeah, he went to the bathroom without telling anyone. *sigh*." And two weeks before the actual plan would be implemented, Terri told people at school that Kyron had been having "mini-seizures."


Great catch! Thank you for this. The rest of your post was awesome as well. (in a very sad kind of way)
Honestly, I don't think it's that abnormal for a kid to stay in a car when (s)he is told to. I really don't think she would have had to restrain him. Why scare him, when she can get him to go along just as easily being nice to him?

mmmagique
09-18-2010, 06:10 AM
\Here's a true didja know...hard drives on computers, even if completely erased with a new operating system put on them - still store your old info. Uh yep. So maybe she did her own sick sleuthing pre-murder, erased her hard drive (so she thought) and when the forensic computer specialists saw the way in which she researched carrying it out, it was 'disturbing'and heartbreaking.



I've been thinking this too. I haven't limited my thoughts to just computers though; Terri loves talking/writing and loves her gadgets, cell phones, texting, probably im's, email, internet searches...

I have a feeling she'll soon be falling into that very deep hole she dug for herself using all that fancy high-tech stuff.

scandi
09-18-2010, 07:26 AM
I was speaking to the 'disturbing' things they came across when reviewing her computer hard drive (they never said they reviewed her hard drive, this is my assumption) and not 'hard evidence,' but I get your point. I think little missy sextress had some seriously sick photos and posts. That's all I'm sayin'. And I'm related to Sorrells so we're practically family. :dance:


My hairdresser said she had seen some very disturbing photos of Terri online. I'll call and ask her more about them, and if anyone wants I could ask where they are to be found.

mmmagique
09-18-2010, 07:39 AM
Idk Scandi, the body building ones were actually disturbing enough for me!

scandi
09-18-2010, 07:46 AM
Idk Scandi, the body building ones were actually disturbing enough for me!

Yea Mmmgique, They aren't something I would normally click a button to look at, for sure. LOL But now I wish I'd asked her more info about their content, when they were taken, etc as it might give us another light to see her better.


xox


OMG, I got up to go to the bathroom, stopped by to see if there was anything about Kaine and Desiree's meeting w/ LE today {which there is nothing here yet}, and here I sit at 4:46am. LOLOLOLOL Time flies out the window when I'm here. ;}

Calliope
09-18-2010, 08:04 AM
here are some more records on TH


What is your source for that? A lot of information is missing. What exactly was she charged with each time? Was she convicted? What was the sentence/fine?

ETA: I figured it out. Nothing new. Same ol' traffic stuff that was posted last month.

Calliope
09-18-2010, 08:31 AM
Those are not 'more' records on Terri. They are the same traffic related offenses we've known about for some time now.

The case number contains the first 3 letters of the county where the offense occurred.

1. Sept 1988, Douglas County, Charge = FOSS, not sure the outcome, just says Sentenced

2. Apr 1990, Coos County, Charge = NEDL, Guilty, Drivers license suspended and then reinstated later

3. Apr 1990, Coos County, related to case above, Charge = NMCE, Guilty

4. Aug 1991, Douglas County, Charge = EMAX, Convicted, bail posted

5. Jan 1996, Lane County, Charge - EMXR, Convicted

6. Mar 1996, Douglas County, Charge = EMXR, Convicted

7. Apr 2004, Lane County, Charge = VSLM, Plead No contest

8. July 2005, Marion County, Charge = DUII, Diversion program
here are some more records on TH

TERRI L MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DDOU B312369DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 03/07/1996 6. OFFENSE DATE: 03/06/1996
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


TERRI L MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX:
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DLAN 9600627DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 01/24/1996 5. OFFENSE DATE: 01/23/1996
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX:
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: CLAN 0401922DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00001 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 04/06/2004 7. OFFENSE DATE: 04/04/2004
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Violation
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE: Caucasian
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 506
EYE COLOR: Brown
HAIR COLOR: Red
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: CMAR 05C48454DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00001 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 07/25/2005 8. OFFENSE DATE: 07/10/2005
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Misdemeanor I
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE: Caucasian
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 506
EYE COLOR: Brown
HAIR COLOR: Red
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: CMAR 05C48454DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 10/05/2005
COUNTS: 00002 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 07/25/2005 8. OFFENSE DATE: 07/10/2005
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Misdemeanor I
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DCOO B9039827DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 04/17/1990 2. OFFENSE DATE: 04/15/1990
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DCOO B9039828DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 04/17/1990 3. OFFENSE DATE: 04/15/1990
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DDOU 09895533DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 09/22/1988 1. OFFENSE DATE: 09/20/1988
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


TERRI LYNN MOULTON 40 03/14/1970 Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense
Print

IDENTIFICATION
TERRI MOULTON
RACE:
SEX: F
DOB: 03/14/1970
AGE: 40 PROFILE INFO
WEIGHT: 000
HEIGHT: 000
EYE COLOR:
HAIR COLOR:
SKIN TONE:

OFFENSE DETAILS
CASE NUMBER: DDOU0891A53436DEF00001 - Confirm Case at the Courthouse
COURT NAME:
OR Admin Office of Courts ARREST AGENCY:
ARREST DATE: CASE STATE: OR
CASE CATEGORY CODE: DISPOSITION DATE: 00/00/1900
COUNTS: 00000 DISPOSITION:
ORIGINAL PLEA: STATE CODE: OR
CHARGES FILED ON: 08/21/1991 4. OFFENSE DATE: 08/20/1991
OFFENSE CODE: OFFENSE CLASS: Offense Infraction
OFFENSE TYPE: Criminal OFFENSE:
CONVICTION DATE: CONVICTION DATE:
SENTENCE DATE: PROBATION DATE:
SOURCE NAME: OR Admin Office of Courts FINES:

Nothing new here.

Calliope
09-18-2010, 08:38 AM
I saw yours as well and the explanations that were for her traffic violations. If you look at the ones that i posted, they are are for drug/alcohol violations which are different than the traffic ones that you posted.

They are the same traffic offenses posted earlier in another thread.

the header says Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense

Kat010
09-18-2010, 08:48 AM
They are the same traffic offenses posted earlier in another thread.

the header says Drug and Alcohol OR Unspecified Offense

Thanks for pointing out, and printing, the facts, Calliope. And in the prior discussion, I believe we learned that one of the offenses was a failure to use seat belt.

Kat010
09-18-2010, 08:52 AM
Idk Scandi, the body building ones were actually disturbing enough for me!

Just asking--do you find women bodybuilders to be "disturbing"? Her photos were just like everyone else's. I personally don't care for that sport--men or women--if you can call it a sport (I dunno). But I don't know that I'd call those involved in it and their photos "disturbing." OK, I'll admit to "occasionally tacky"--for many of them, but not all, from what I've seen.

mmmagique
09-18-2010, 09:10 AM
Yes. Ever since I was a little kid, I've thought body builders were kinda icky.

(not people who use weights to work out...I do as well...people who bulk up so much that it looks painful.)

Billylee
09-27-2010, 07:18 PM
Here's what I come up with when I connect the currently available dots:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrbpuGE_GHF0cQ399wkMh2T94Kajr-9ToqpjAj9gsoLpFlVeI&t=1&usg=__tUBt7Z8Vf6S3Pr0UJULRMqGl5pc=

Can anyone tell me what this looks like?

LOL, I don't know but it reminds me of a picture I once saw of a spider web, where they'd administered the poor spider some LSD or something!

Curious Me
09-27-2010, 10:04 PM
Here's what I come up with when I connect the currently available dots:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrbpuGE_GHF0cQ399wkMh2T94Kajr-9ToqpjAj9gsoLpFlVeI&t=1&usg=__tUBt7Z8Vf6S3Pr0UJULRMqGl5pc=

Can anyone tell me what this looks like?

sorrell skye, you made me laugh really hard. Thanks to you, and BillyLee for bumping it

Wait, the next dots will complete the picture, I hope. Been waiting for dots for so long.

Curious Me
09-27-2010, 10:20 PM
Can't stand the quiet much longer. It's unbearable when Kyron is still missing. I feel like any minute something big could happen, but ...no dots.

SacreBleu
09-27-2010, 10:47 PM
Can't stand the quiet much longer. It's unbearable when Kyron is still missing. I feel like any minute something big could happen, but ...no dots.

Lotsa dots, CM, it's the connection we're not seeing....but it's there. Have faith.

..........
..............

.....................

Curious Me
09-28-2010, 03:28 AM
LOL, I don't know but it reminds me of a picture I once saw of a spider web, where they'd administered the poor spider some LSD or something!

Do you see a witch hat? I see a witch with a long chin. It looks like there's a tear or she's crying, but it evaporates instantly. (the line goes upwards from the tear) I'm serious, that's what I see!

Wow, sorrell sky, I think you've managed to capture something from your dot connections.

sorrell skye
09-28-2010, 04:43 AM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROn0JgA28XRef4PdkPhgblPrAQUJaI0 TVIEcfupvNLDcxMpkQ&t=1&usg=__40ePXspmoCs3m39-ffzD9gI6E-k=

sorrell skye
09-28-2010, 04:45 AM
Follow the Yellow Brick Road...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVxQaUPG7QMbgBulPyTzFHGPt7ILSYD Zsqu9jKZb1jLz67RuI&t=1&usg=__3t55C16V04PRjvk9NdjmwVm2fFo=

sorrell skye
09-28-2010, 04:51 AM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRIl9Eq667OHjj53ZAJhcRvHItlneQhh 3WY6BGr9snwK0-6wII&t=1&usg=__-i1Zdh3mu7oIfh6xfvfrqNhLq94=

Wendy101
09-30-2010, 02:44 AM
For this poll I chose - stranger abduction (not Terri, Dede)

Here is what I have been thinking.


Kaine wrote that email from Intel not to talk to the media.

There is a reason for that.

Intel was experimenting with putting chips into kids and tried it out on Kyron. But they can't find him. The tracking isn't working. They tracked him to Hawaii or somewhere and lost him.

Also I tie that with Kaines statement about how they were teaching Kyron to listen to the adults at the school.
So maybe an Intel employee went in to get Kyron and he listened like he was taught to, as it was an adult in the school.

txsvicki
09-30-2010, 04:10 AM
I'm not sure I have a theory for where Kyron is, but my theory of someone being convinced to take him for his safety is losing hope. After all the statements made I think it's possible that Kyron was mistreated, that Terri might have been caught in an affair with the landscaper, and that she might have had a drinking problem. Reading between the lines, it sounds like lots of arguing went on over the kids and in the marriage. Lots of unhappiness and admitted talk of divorce. She could have wanted out of her marriage, or knew he was getting out, but knew that Kaine would not allow her to get custody of the child, that he not only wanted his kids but his wives' kids as well, so pillow talk of killing him came up, but not carried out. It's possible that Kaine was monitoring Terri's computer activity and was going to use everything against her in a custody fight before Kyron ever went missing. I believe that Terri was set up to be caught sexting with MC, and may have been under the influence of ambien or booze when doing that. Terri was unhappy, pretty isolated out in that rural area with no job, and apparently didn't think her husband cared for her anymore, so she was vulnerable to getting online with men. It's hard to believe that she sexually manipulated all men that way, because nothing else has been said. Regardless, the state of things doesn't make it look good for Kyron IMO.

mmmagique
09-30-2010, 11:27 AM
For this poll I chose - stranger abduction (not Terri, Dede)

Here is what I have been thinking.


Kaine wrote that email from Intel not to talk to the media.

There is a reason for that.

Intel was experimenting with putting chips into kids and tried it out on Kyron. But they can't find him. The tracking isn't working. They tracked him to Hawaii or somewhere and lost him.

Also I tie that with Kaines statement about how they were teaching Kyron to listen to the adults at the school.
So maybe an Intel employee went in to get Kyron and he listened like he was taught to, as it was an adult in the school.

Wow.
I don't think that happened.

debs
09-30-2010, 11:29 AM
I dunno. I looked into lo-jacking Princess PeePee, and other than that whole violation of her privacy and causing her pain to have it inserted, I think it's a pretty good idea. P.S.....they have lojack watches.

mmmagique
09-30-2010, 11:34 AM
I'm not sure I have a theory for where Kyron is, but my theory of someone being convinced to take him for his safety is losing hope. After all the statements made I think it's possible that Kyron was mistreated, that Terri might have been caught in an affair with the landscaper, and that she might have had a drinking problem. Reading between the lines, it sounds like lots of arguing went on over the kids and in the marriage. Lots of unhappiness and admitted talk of divorce. She could have wanted out of her marriage, or knew he was getting out, but knew that Kaine would not allow her to get custody of the child, that he not only wanted his kids but his wives' kids as well, so pillow talk of killing him came up, but not carried out. It's possible that Kaine was monitoring Terri's computer activity and was going to use everything against her in a custody fight before Kyron ever went missing. I believe that Terri was set up to be caught sexting with MC, and may have been under the influence of ambien or booze when doing that. Terri was unhappy, pretty isolated out in that rural area with no job, and apparently didn't think her husband cared for her anymore, so she was vulnerable to getting online with men. It's hard to believe that she sexually manipulated all men that way, because nothing else has been said. Regardless, the state of things doesn't make it look good for Kyron IMO.

I doubt people who have a missing son are going around setting up elaborate plots to get their spouse to sext someone else.
Plus...who sexts other people when their step-son has just gone missing?
Even if you're the "unusual person" who can think about setting up your spouse like that when your seven year old child has gone missing, what kind of "unusual person" is going to fall for it?
This was no set up imo.

gliving
09-30-2010, 01:25 PM
For this poll I chose - stranger abduction (not Terri, Dede)

Here is what I have been thinking.


Kaine wrote that email from Intel not to talk to the media.

There is a reason for that.

Intel was experimenting with putting chips into kids and tried it out on Kyron. But they can't find him. The tracking isn't working. They tracked him to Hawaii or somewhere and lost him.

Also I tie that with Kaines statement about how they were teaching Kyron to listen to the adults at the school.
So maybe an Intel employee went in to get Kyron and he listened like he was taught to, as it was an adult in the school.

Zaha, here's one case where I wish a chip was implanted. I didn't know Intel was experimenting with chips in kids, but I've read companies do implant employees for access to high security areas.

32beatspersecond
09-30-2010, 01:42 PM
Zaha, here's one case where I wish a chip was implanted. I didn't know Intel was experimenting with chips in kids, but I've read companies do implant employees for access to high security areas.
I wonder if putting a chip in a kid would cause any complications, like an infection at the brain stem, or ADD symptoms and confusion, lethargy if he is in a home with wireless routing.

gliving
09-30-2010, 01:48 PM
I think the chips go in the forearm. The size of a grain of rice. I don't know the risk factors, but dogs get them all the time.

Maybe you are thinking of the gps bracelets? http://daddytypes.com/2005/02/05/gps_tracking_not_just_for_felons_anymore.php


Whew, a long stretch to try and connect this dot. :innocent:

debs
09-30-2010, 01:56 PM
Among other things, chips implanted will cause problems for MRI's, going through scanners at airports, and COULD cause infections at the implantation site.

I'll get a watch.

Calliope
09-30-2010, 03:19 PM
I wouldn't chip my kid. Ever.


Speaking of weird spy stuff ... have you seen the new Barbie with a built in video camera??

:eek:

debs
09-30-2010, 03:58 PM
I wouldn't chip my kid. Ever.


Speaking of weird spy stuff ... have you seen the new Barbie with a built in video camera??

:eek:

"And for those perverts who are just starting out, here's a toy designed to get you up close to your target."

W
T
(insert inappropriate letter here)

Billylee
09-30-2010, 07:56 PM
I actually thought chips would be a good idea, until I thought it through. If someone took a child with a chip, I'm sure they'd try to remove it. The thought made me shudder.

Wendy101
09-30-2010, 08:42 PM
I wouldn't chip my kid. Ever.


Speaking of weird spy stuff ... have you seen the new Barbie with a built in video camera??

:eek:

Oh I would never chip my child either Calliope - I think the "chip" is mark of the beast described in Revelations chapter 13.

It is a sign for the end of the world - humans will need this mark to buy and sell essentials -if you do not get the mark -you will not be able to eat or antyhing, so you will eventually die.

What a sneeky way to get part of the pupulation to recieve the mark willingly!

txsvicki
09-30-2010, 08:44 PM
I doubt people who have a missing son are going around setting up elaborate plots to get their spouse to sext someone else.
Plus...who sexts other people when their step-son has just gone missing?
Even if you're the "unusual person" who can think about setting up your spouse like that when your seven year old child has gone missing, what kind of "unusual person" is going to fall for it?
This was no set up imo.


No, I think it's possible that it was known beforehand that she did these kind of things online and it was used to try and get info out of Terri, or to get more reasons to pressure her. Plenty of people would go to any lengths to set up or try to get the person to tell where their kid is being hidden.

Calliope
09-30-2010, 08:52 PM
"And for those perverts who are just starting out, here's a toy designed to get you up close to your target."

W
T
(insert inappropriate letter here)

Honestly that is what I thought of too, how this can be used to harm children .. once I picked my jaw up off the floor, that is. Especially when I saw that the videos can be downloaded to the 'net. Holy ....

What the HELL were they thinking ???? :furious:

http://www.barbie.com/VideoGirl/about.aspx

liz b.
09-30-2010, 09:15 PM
I wonder if putting a chip in a kid would cause any complications, like an infection at the brain stem, or ADD symptoms and confusion, lethargy if he is in a home with wireless routing.

Very interesting thought,IMO

All JMO

Calliope
10-12-2010, 01:35 AM
It seems the dots aren't connecting.

gwenabob
10-12-2010, 02:24 AM
It seems the dots aren't connecting.

For whom? Because they connected a long time ago for me.

Calliope
10-12-2010, 03:32 AM
For whom? Because they connected a long time ago for me.

Obviously not for others, IMO.

I suspect not for LE as well.

SmoothOperator
10-12-2010, 05:20 AM
There are many such as myself that the dots connect well enough to clearly see what the image is that the connecting of the dots outline that when ALL DOTS CONNECT YOU HAVE A CRYSTAL CLEAR PORTRAIT.. and as I just stated there are plenty of the dots that are connected to make visible the image, IMO LE also sees and knows what the image is that has appeared by the connecting of the dots thus far... LE stated that many will be surprised to know just "how far" they are into this investigation...

And tho the image for so very many of us is apparent and visible LE continuing to fill in those dots not yet connected will ONLY make an already clearly visible picture just all the more clear, precise, and detailed..
For example below the the majority of dots are connected, thus making the picture quite clear as to who or what it is and LE continuing to fill in the remaining dots will only further make the picture all the more clear, tightening up any holes, and when complete will be 100% crystal clear..

http://www.activitypad.com/pages/dot/dtd31.gif

Thus you have many us stating the obvious of the image that is clearly visible at this point and LE will only better focus and make clearer as they finish connecting all dots..[just as finishing connecting the dots above would only give further detail and clarity to an already obvious picture/image of a female]

BeanE
10-12-2010, 07:02 AM
It seems the dots aren't connecting.

After four months, and a tremendous amount of study, I can't even find any dots to try to connect.

I've followed many cases over many years, and it is astounding to me that after all this time, there is still not one shred of evidence that points to Terri or anyone else.

It's just as Desiree said early on - it's as if a portal opened up in the school, and Kyron just vanished into it.

citigirl
10-12-2010, 07:23 AM
After four months, and a tremendous amount of study, I can't even find any dots to try to connect.

I've followed many cases over many years, and it is astounding to me that after all this time, there is still not one shred of evidence that points to Terri or anyone else.

It's just as Desiree said early on - it's as if a portal opened up in the school, and Kyron just vanished into it.

BeanE, I don't think you can say there is not one shred of evidence. We just do not know what the evidence is. LE has not told us.

Tony Young told us that there was enough information available for us to connect the dots. I know what he meant--roughly. He meant Terri is involved in some way.

Donjeta
10-12-2010, 07:53 AM
I'm not sure I'd be willing to invest a huge sum of someone else's money to get the top criminal defense lawyer if I knew that there was not a shred of evidence against me.

BeanE
10-12-2010, 07:58 AM
BeanE, I don't think you can say there is not one shred of evidence. We just do not know what the evidence is. LE has not told us.

Tony Young told us that there was enough information available for us to connect the dots. I know what he meant--roughly. He meant Terri is involved in some way.

Then I'll clarify. I meant that I have not found one shred of evidence, with evidence being defined, for myself, as I've previously posted. If you'd like me to pull that definition up and repost it, I'll be happy to - just let me know.

BeanE
10-12-2010, 08:00 AM
I'm not sure I'd be willing to invest a huge sum of someone else's money to get the top criminal defense lawyer if I knew that there was not a shred of evidence against me.

Those are exactly the circumstances under which I'd want a top criminal defense lawyer.

pufnstuf
10-12-2010, 08:26 AM
Then I'll clarify. I meant that I have not found one shred of evidence, with evidence being defined, for myself, as I've previously posted. If you'd like me to pull that definition up and repost it, I'll be happy to - just let me know.

Thing is, MCSO doesn't function by our expectations. We can define evidence however we wish, but our definitions have no impact on the investigation.

So many people thought the same thing about the Mackenzie Cowell investigation... that LE had no evidence. Little did the naysayers know that investigators not only had evidence--damning evidence--but also a person of interest, pretty much out of the gates of the investigation. But they had to wait for the lab to process evidence, which took seven months, before they made an arrest.

I expect the same thing or something very similar in this case.

32beatspersecond
10-12-2010, 08:46 AM
Thing is, MCSO doesn't function by our expectations. We can define evidence however we wish, but our definitions have no impact on the investigation.

So many people thought the same thing about the Mackenzie Cowell investigation... that LE had no evidence. Little did the naysayers know that investigators not only had evidence--damning evidence--but also a person of interest, pretty much out of the gates of the investigation. But they had to wait for the lab to process evidence, which took seven months, before they made an arrest.

I expect the same thing or something very similar in this case.
didn't MCSO take the pickup twice? I think I remember that correctly.I remember finding it strange that they would release it and then take it again. maybe they because it was reported that she cleaned and detailed it on the 4th, they needed epithelials and prints to get back into the vehicle to match something else they found. If thats true its some promise there is evidence in the works.

BeanE
10-12-2010, 09:02 AM
Thing is, MCSO doesn't function by our expectations. We can define evidence however we wish, but our definitions have no impact on the investigation.


I completely agree.

loves2bmom
10-12-2010, 10:11 AM
BeanE, I don't think you can say there is not one shred of evidence. We just do not know what the evidence is. LE has not told us.

Tony Young told us that there was enough information available for us to connect the dots. I know what he meant--roughly. He meant Terri is involved in some way.

I agree! LE is connecting the dots just fine! ;)

ETA: Adding to my post...but I'm worried someone on a jury won't be able to put it together. The case is admittedly not air tight. If they could find Kyron it would be tighter. IMO of course!

Calliope
10-12-2010, 10:49 AM
BeanE, I don't think you can say there is not one shred of evidence. We just do not know what the evidence is. LE has not told us.

Tony Young told us that there was enough information available for us to connect the dots. I know what he meant--roughly. He meant Terri is involved in some way.

Based on his gut. His experience with LE. His step-fatherly feelings.

IMO, he didn't have an "in" with MCSO simply because of his line of work.

mmmagique
10-12-2010, 11:18 AM
No, I think it's possible that it was known beforehand that she did these kind of things online and it was used to try and get info out of Terri, or to get more reasons to pressure her. Plenty of people would go to any lengths to set up or try to get the person to tell where their kid is being hidden.

But...even if this is the kind of thing you do online, do you do it with just anyone who asks? MC is pretty average looking, why would they assume she would take him up on the offer?

I guess they could have kept trying though until they found one she liked?

This just doesn't make sense to me, and like Judge Judy says, "if it doesn't make sense, it didn't happen." I just don't believe it went down that way.

The easiest and most logical explanation is generally the truth, and the most logical explanation is...Terri (whether it was a sexual addiction, a lack of caring about Kyron's situation, or something else) made the decision to come on to MC and to send him graphic pictures of herself while her stepson was newly missing. That's extremely odd and disturbing behaviour whether she was set up or not.

Morag
10-12-2010, 12:09 PM
didn't MCSO take the pickup twice? I think I remember that correctly.I remember finding it strange that they would release it and then take it again. maybe they because it was reported that she cleaned and detailed it on the 4th, they needed epithelials and prints to get back into the vehicle to match something else they found. If thats true its some promise there is evidence in the works.
BBM

I haven't heard this. Where was it reported? And when would she have had the time to do it?

Dee10
10-12-2010, 12:17 PM
Based on his gut. His experience with LE. His step-fatherly feelings.

IMO, he didn't have an "in" with MCSO simply because of his line of work.

I agree, however I am sure they talked to Terri numerous times and if so her changing stories and the timeline would have set bells off to them. The truth doesn't change.

gardeness
10-12-2010, 12:38 PM
After four months, and a tremendous amount of study, I can't even find any dots to try to connect.

I've followed many cases over many years, and it is astounding to me that after all this time, there is still not one shred of evidence that points to Terri or anyone else.

It's just as Desiree said early on - it's as if a portal opened up in the school, and Kyron just vanished into it.

IMO, Desiree's distraught pc a couple of weeks ago gives a hint as to the status of LE's connected dots.

stmarysmead
10-12-2010, 01:07 PM
IMO, Desiree's distraught pc a couple of weeks ago gives a hint as to the status of LE's connected dots.

Well, that's one guess.

My guess is that the fact that the searches were resuming...searches on Sauvie Island that would not produce a live little boy...were devastating to a Mother wanting desperately to believe her son is still alive.

In fact, she spoke vehemently about more donations for searches...searches were on her mind.

Desiree was so distraught...so seemingly at wits end...I believe if she was disgusted with the police investigation, she would absolutely have not been able to hold back on that topic. She didn't care if Kaine agreed with her. She stood there alone. Didn't seem like a woman who would or could hold back that day in regard to her frustration.

But her topic seemed to be about searches. Not the investigation.

I think the mystery of whodunnit has been solved.

The mystery of where Kyron is...has not.

cluciano63
10-12-2010, 01:11 PM
After all this time I still have not been able to move away from my theory that this was a one-person crime, either Terri or someone totally unknown to all. I'm probably wrong, as everyone seems to believe there are helpers and accomplices, but I have not yet been able to bring myself to believe that.

If I am wrong, then LE should have a better chance, as it seems that in cases of conspiracy, someone always talks. I don't believe that has happened yet, since they can't find Kyron.

LE's searches these past two weeks give me a sinking feeling that they really are going back to the beginning and are in a mode where they know that they must find Kyron to proceed.

BeanE
10-12-2010, 01:19 PM
Well, that's one guess.

My guess is that the fact that the searches were resuming...searches on Sauvie Island that would not produce a live little boy...were devastating to a Mother wanting desperately to believe her son is still alive.

In fact, she spoke vehemently about more donations for searches...searches were on her mind.

Desiree was so distraught...so seemingly at wits end...I believe if she was disgusted with the police investigation, she would absolutely have not been able to hold back on that topic. She didn't care if Kaine agreed with her. She stood there alone. Didn't seem like a woman who would or could hold back that day in regard to her frustration.

But her topic seemed to be about searches. Not the investigation.

I think the mystery of whodunnit has been solved.

The mystery of where Kyron is...has not.

She doesn't mention searches at all, SMM. Her concentration is about upping the reward money, but if you take those pleas out, and look at why she wanted the reward money increased, it is, sadly, because no one has come forward with information, and over and over and over she says that's what she wants - someone to come forward with information. It's heartbreaking.

Now it may be that, even at a subconscious level, that LE had told her there would be searches at Sauvie, and she knows that means a Kyron not alive. And that is why she was focused on getting someone to come forward with information - if that person came forward, and gave info, it could stop the searches on Sauvie, the searches for a Kyron who's not alive.

Hope that made sense. It's been weighing heavily on my mind.



Most of Desiree's statement at presser of October 2 (all but the first couple sentences):


And so, I brought everybody out here today because I want to appeal to the public. (pause) I guess (pause) I don't know what else to do. I'm (pause) It's been four months now, and Kyron is still not home, and I would like to appeal to everybody, and ask everybody to help me get the reward increased.

I want to (pause) have everybody come together and show the support for Kyron. This money doesn't come to us. It doesn't go to support Terri. It doesn't go to support me or Kaine or Tony. It supports Kyron. It's to find him, and it goes to the person who comes forward and gives information about where Kyron is at.

There is someone out there that has him, and there is someone out there that knows information, and they have not come forward.

I want that person to come forward.

I have been thinking about this and... I just... I guess I'm at that point where I don't know what else to do.

This is not about supporting Terri Horman. All of the people that are supporting her, her parents and everything... that's great, but why don't they put their money together and help us increase the reward to bring Kyron home?

How 'bout her parents give us 350,000 dollars so that we can bring Kyron home?

Increase the reward to at least what Terri's legal fees are.

I (pause) I just... we're not gonna stop. We will never stop, and we want Kyron home, and we want him home right now, and I want someone in Terri's circle to come forward with information.

I really want to bring Kyron home, and I don't know how else to do that, but to increase the reward, so I would like everybody's help, so that we can get the reward up there to a point where someone will come forward that knows something.

ETA: forgot your wink ;)

stmarysmead
10-12-2010, 02:07 PM
Yes, you're right on the "searches."

I guess I remembered it that way because it's been weighing on my mind how devastating they must be to her...in light that she seems to very much not want to concede the possibility that Kyron is gone.

In my mind. "wanting him home" was in her way...perhaps...denying the need for searches for remains. Ahhh, it is all so painful to even observe.

On another topic...

Hey, 'bout time you showed up with the wink...

gardeness
10-12-2010, 02:16 PM
Well, that's one guess.

My guess is that the fact that the searches were resuming...searches on Sauvie Island that would not produce a live little boy...were devastating to a Mother wanting desperately to believe her son is still alive.

In fact, she spoke vehemently about more donations for searches...searches were on her mind.

Desiree was so distraught...so seemingly at wits end...I believe if she was disgusted with the police investigation, she would absolutely have not been able to hold back on that topic. She didn't care if Kaine agreed with her. She stood there alone. Didn't seem like a woman who would or could hold back that day in regard to her frustration.

But her topic seemed to be about searches. Not the investigation.

I think the mystery of whodunnit has been solved.

The mystery of where Kyron is...has not.

I agree with BeanE's response to most of this post, but to add my thoughts to the part bbm--I disagree that it has been solved.

I don't think that LE has connected the dots--they are stumped by the parts of Terri's alibi that are validated--the grocery stores (a receipt from one, a chat with a friend from another, and video surveillance, most likely), the gym, and FB posts. They are trying to take every piece of information, not evidence, that they have and force an explanation into the hour and a half of unaccounted time (i.e."driving around").

If LE had any evidence, Terri would be in jail right now. Consider this: LE attempted a rushed "sting" for the MFH in order to get Terri in jail. I don't see any other reason for this sting attempt. LE admits it never went past "talking", so what was the rush? The rush was to get Terri in jail. If LE ever had any evidence on Terri for any crime, she would already be in jail. moo mho

stmarysmead
10-12-2010, 02:25 PM
I agree with BeanE's response to most of this post, but to add my thoughts to the part bbm--I disagree that it has been solved.

I don't think that LE has connected the dots--they are stumped by the parts of Terri's alibi that are validated--the grocery stores (a receipt from one, a chat with a friend from another, and video surveillance, most likely), the gym, and FB posts. They are trying to take every piece of information, not evidence, that they have and force an explanation into the hour and a half of unaccounted time (i.e."driving around").

If LE had any evidence, Terri would be in jail right now. Consider this: LE attempted a rushed "sting" for the MFH in order to get Terri in jail. I don't see any other reason for this sting attempt. LE admits it never went past "talking", so what was the rush? The rush was to get Terri in jail. If LE ever had any evidence on Terri for any crime, she would already be in jail. moo mho

Please read Sarah7855's excellent "connect the dots" post (192)on this thread...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115967&page=8

It includes this quote...from this article.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/09/kyron_horman_case_as_costs_top.html

Quote:
"All this information has been compiled, a lot of questions have been answered. We’re now focusing on what we have collected and targeting those areas to help the district attorney’s office to develop a case that they can prosecute successfully."

Respectfully, I think LE and the District Attorney know more than we do.

gardeness
10-12-2010, 02:40 PM
Please read Sarah7855's excellent "connect the dots" post (192)on this thread...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115967&page=8

It includes this quote...from this article.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/09/kyron_horman_case_as_costs_top.html

Quote:
"All this information has been compiled, a lot of questions have been answered. Weíre now focusing on what we have collected and targeting those areas to help the district attorneyís office to develop a case that they can prosecute successfully."

Respectfully, I think LE and the District Attorney know more than we do.

Thanks--I've been following this forum today and had already read her post, which, IMO contains PR statements and spin. I am quite positive that LE and the DA know more about this case than I, lol--but I, as a rational thinker, can deduce some ideas from their actions or lack of actions. I am completely open to changing my mind once real evidence has surfaced.

germaine
10-12-2010, 03:55 PM
If LE had any evidence, Terri would be in jail right now. Consider this: LE attempted a rushed "sting" for the MFH in order to get Terri in jail. I don't see any other reason for this sting attempt. LE admits it never went past "talking", so what was the rush? The rush was to get Terri in jail. If LE ever had any evidence on Terri for any crime, she would already be in jail. moo mho

LE has told us that is not the case. Imo, it's obvious that they wanted her in jail on another charge (MFH) while they built their ironclad case relating to Kyron's disappearance. That happens all the time. At the time of the sting, they realized there was a good possibility that that case relating to Kyron would possibly or probably be a circumstantial one, difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Which is, as been pointed out here over and over again, not the same as probable cause for an arrest. Not even close.

As far as not arresting her on the MFH, those cases are generally prosecuted when there is an irrefutable solicitation and at least a discussion of price, if not an actual exchange of money. They are almost always prosecuted with a "sting" type operation b/c otherwise you have exactly what we have here -- a case where the person doing the hiring can say, oh, it wasn't me who sent those texts on my phone, or I was just joking, or I was just angry at that moment, I didn't mean it. Doesn't mean she didn't do it, or that there's no evidence of it. Just means that it's not evidence that will definitely hold up in court to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So if that's what you mean when you say they don't have "any evidence" -- then you are probably right. But I get the sense that's not what you mean. jmoo

Calliope
10-12-2010, 04:37 PM
<snip>

Respectfully, I think LE and the District Attorney know more than we do.

One would hope so.

pufnstuf
10-12-2010, 04:41 PM
One would hope so.

Of course they do. That's why the constant criticism of the job they're doing is unfounded.

BeanE
10-12-2010, 04:56 PM
Of course they do. That's why the constant criticism of the job they're doing is unfounded.

hmmmm... I only recall seeing one critical comment of the job LE is doing in this case, and it was a mild comment at that.

Calliope
10-12-2010, 04:56 PM
Of course they do. That's why the constant criticism of the job they're doing is unfounded.

How do we know it's unfounded if we don't know what they know, ya know?

pufnstuf
10-12-2010, 09:12 PM
How do we know it's unfounded if we don't know what they know, ya know?

Because, without knowing what LE knows, continuous uninformed criticism amounts merely to setting up strawmen just to knock them down.

gardeness
10-12-2010, 09:16 PM
LE has told us that is not the case. Imo, it's obvious that they wanted her in jail on another charge (MFH) while they built their ironclad case relating to Kyron's disappearance. That happens all the time. At the time of the sting, they realized there was a good possibility that that case relating to Kyron would possibly or probably be a circumstantial one, difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Which is, as been pointed out here over and over again, not the same as probable cause for an arrest. Not even close.

As far as not arresting her on the MFH, those cases are generally prosecuted when there is an irrefutable solicitation and at least a discussion of price, if not an actual exchange of money. They are almost always prosecuted with a "sting" type operation b/c otherwise you have exactly what we have here -- a case where the person doing the hiring can say, oh, it wasn't me who sent those texts on my phone, or I was just joking, or I was just angry at that moment, I didn't mean it. Doesn't mean she didn't do it, or that there's no evidence of it. Just means that it's not evidence that will definitely hold up in court to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So if that's what you mean when you say they don't have "any evidence" -- then you are probably right. But I get the sense that's not what you mean. jmoo

I think you missed my point--that, IMO, LE has no evidence on Terri whatsoever.

Kimster
10-12-2010, 09:29 PM
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/Kimba4jc/Websleuths/Kermit.jpg

It's not looking like a working theory thread anymore? :waitasec:

Please review the first post. Thanks!

Calliope
10-12-2010, 09:52 PM
Because, without knowing what LE knows, continuous uninformed criticism amounts merely to setting up strawmen just to knock them down.

The same can be said for uninformed praise.

We just don't know ...

Calliope
10-12-2010, 09:54 PM
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/Kimba4jc/Websleuths/Kermit.jpg

It's not looking like a working theory thread anymore? :waitasec:

Please review the first post. Thanks!

lol @ Kermit.

ok ;)

Back to the dots, scattered as they may be. Sorry.

germaine
10-12-2010, 10:01 PM
I think you missed my point--that, IMO, LE has no evidence on Terri whatsoever.

No, I got your point. I just don't think it's correct or reasonable under the circumstances and my post explained why I think that. I don't need to belabor the point though. We can agree to totally, completely and in every way shape and form disagree lol

Bluestars
10-12-2010, 10:08 PM
I think Terri is responsible. I believe that because the teacher and at least one other student were BOTH lead to believe Terri took Kyron to a doctor's appointment that day. That tells me this was premeditated and that she planned this.

If there was someone in the truck, either watching the baby while Terri was in the SF or just sitting in the truck, then I think that person is an accomplice.

I think Dede is involved and helped cover up the crime when whatever Terri was doing didn't work like she had planned, or was more difficult than she planned. I think if Dede is involved, that she was lied to by Terri and made to believe things that were not true.

All of this is my opinion. I think it's possible that the things LE found out that they wish they didn't know may involve either the other person in the truck (if it is shocking) or things that may have happened to poor little Kyron.

Calliope
10-12-2010, 10:09 PM
What led the teacher to believe Kyron was taken to his doctor's appointment?

Bluestars
10-12-2010, 10:11 PM
What led the teacher to believe Kyron was taken to his doctor's appointment?

I believe Terri lead the teacher to believe she was taking Kyron to the doctor. A student even thought the same thing. That makes two people that we know of. I wonder if the entire class knew it.

Calliope
10-12-2010, 10:14 PM
I believe Terri lead the teacher to believe she was taking Kyron to the doctor. A student even thought the same thing. That makes two people that we know of. I wonder if the entire class knew it.

You mean she told her that day? (wasn't there something about Terri telling teacher in the gym that morning?)

Bluestars
10-12-2010, 10:17 PM
I wanted to add that I don't know if someone else was in Terri's truck. It seems to be a big secret whether or not the baby was with Terri at the SF. It's strange how none of the witnesses who have talked spoke of seeing the baby at the SF. Stranger still is that Terri didn't take any pictures of her that morning. Therefore, I think it's quite possible that the baby was left in the truck. I don't think Terri would ever leave the baby in the truck by herself, so it connects the dots for me that someone else was watching the baby in the truck.

Now if there was a person in Terri's truck, then that person is either an alibi or an accomplice. Since Terri never mentioned the person in the truck as her alibi, that leaves accomplice.

Bluestars
10-12-2010, 10:19 PM
You mean she told her that day? (wasn't there something about Terri telling teacher in the gym that morning?)

Yes. Terri stated in her e-mail to a friend that she told the teacher she was going to look at exhibits and the teacher thought she was taking Kyron with Kitty to the doctor's. So, the teacher thought that morning that Terri was taking him to the doctor's. So did another student, which was reported in the media. Even a deaf person couldn't mix up those two comments (IMO).

SacreBleu
10-12-2010, 10:41 PM
Dot1..Terri took the truck to bring home the science project....
Dot2...The science project never made it home.

There is a reason Terri never returned to Skyline on June 4 to pick up the project. And it has nothing to do with waiting for an email reply from Ms. Porter. Keep it simple.

gardeness
10-12-2010, 10:56 PM
Dot1..Terri took the truck to bring home the science project....
Dot2...The science project never made it home.

There is a reason Terri never returned to Skyline on June 4 to pick up the project. And it has nothing to do with waiting for an email reply from Ms. Porter. Keep it simple.

Or, Dot2...Toddler K was fussy and feverish and Terri abandoned previous plans and left earlier than she expected to go to the store for medicine...

gardeness
10-12-2010, 10:59 PM
No, I got your point. I just don't think it's correct or reasonable under the circumstances and my post explained why I think that. I don't need to belabor the point though. We can agree to totally, completely and in every way shape and form disagree lol

Yes, let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. :)

cypress
10-12-2010, 11:07 PM
Dot1..Terri took the truck to bring home the science project....
Dot2...The science project never made it home.

There is a reason Terri never returned to Skyline on June 4 to pick up the project. And it has nothing to do with waiting for an email reply from Ms. Porter. Keep it simple.

BBM

IMHO, simple is not LE adding accomplices to the mix, all of whom conspired with Terri for completely inexplicable reasons to disappear a child. IMHO, opposite of simple, the most improbable, unlikely scenarios have been manufactured as a way to keep Terri at the focus of this investigation and, perhaps, in Desiree's case, as a way to hold onto hope that Kyron is alive.

Bluestars
10-12-2010, 11:10 PM
Or, Dot2...Toddler K was fussy and feverish and Terri abandoned previous plans and left earlier than she expected to go to the store for medicine...

If the baby was so sick, why in the world would she go to the gym and leave the baby in the day care? That's the last thing I would ever do with a sick baby.

mmmagique
10-12-2010, 11:23 PM
I wanted to add that I don't know if someone else was in Terri's truck. It seems to be a big secret whether or not the baby was with Terri at the SF. It's strange how none of the witnesses who have talked spoke of seeing the baby at the SF. Stranger still is that Terri didn't take any pictures of her that morning. Therefore, I think it's quite possible that the baby was left in the truck. I don't think Terri would ever leave the baby in the truck by herself, so it connects the dots for me that someone else was watching the baby in the truck.

Now if there was a person in Terri's truck, then that person is either an alibi or an accomplice. Since Terri never mentioned the person in the truck as her alibi, that leaves accomplice.

I've always wondered if Terri just left the baby at home for a few hours. It would be a little risky but compared to everything else, maybe not so much. It could be why Kaine at first said that baby K was at a sitters house, but never really answered that question as the investigation moved on.

I believe there is a very good reason none of us have been told where she was.

mmmagique
10-12-2010, 11:25 PM
BBM

IMHO, simple is not LE adding accomplices to the mix, all of whom conspired with Terri for completely inexplicable reasons to disappear a child. IMHO, opposite of simple, the most improbable, unlikely scenarios have been manufactured as a way to keep Terri at the focus of this investigation and, perhaps, in Desiree's case, as a way to hold onto hope that Kyron is alive.

True. It's quite possible she did it all by herself.

Billylee
10-12-2010, 11:36 PM
I've always wondered if Terri just left the baby at home for a few hours. It would be a little risky but compared to everything else, maybe not so much. It could be why Kaine at first said that baby K was at a sitters house, but never really answered that question as the investigation moved on.

I believe there is a very good reason none of us have been told where she was.

I never read that, can you provide a linky? I thought when it was brought up, he always answered that the baby was with Terri. ?

cypress
10-12-2010, 11:47 PM
True. It's quite possible she did it all by herself.

LE, Desiree, and Kaine are certainly of the mind that she had an accomplice, and they've backed off Dede as her partner in crime. Were they overzealous in their accusation and implication of Dede in this crime? Is she involved or not? IMHO, they publicly accused her and LE publicly implicated her, and so if she's been cleared, Desiree, Kaine, and LE should publicly clear her. If she's not Terri's accomplice, who is, and shouldn't the public be alerted to the fact that a dangerous child abductor is on the loose?

On another note, how is it that Terri, not savvy enough to avoid batphone and sexting detection, has managed to leave behind no evidence of her alleged crimes or her accomplice? She's stumped 22 LE agencies including the FBI. They're sure she did it, but can't prove it, and they have no idea who helped her.

Curious, that.

Dee10
10-12-2010, 11:47 PM
But, didn't (can't remember her name off hand) the woman from the gym, didn't she state baby K was with TH at the FM's store that day?

gardeness
10-12-2010, 11:51 PM
If the baby was so sick, why in the world would she go to the gym and leave the baby in the day care? That's the last thing I would ever do with a sick baby.

Are you questioning the validity of the baby not feeling well? If so, the friend Terri spoke with at the second store validated that the baby wasn't feeling well. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20013828-504083.html

Billylee
10-13-2010, 12:00 AM
But, didn't (can't remember her name off hand) the woman from the gym, didn't she state baby K was with TH at the FM's store that day?

Yes she did say she saw her FM#2 on the 4th. And she said she saw her the day before (the 3rd) at the gym and the baby was not feeling well then also. But, in the interview with KoinTV she does not mention whether she saw TH at the gym on the 4th. Doesn't mean she didn't, she just said she was asked if she did. And I don't know if the reporter purposely left this out, because she was told not ask, or if the reporter just missed an opportunity, AGAIN, why didn't the reporter follow up with at least a question such as "Well, did you see her at the gym that day?"

Dee10
10-13-2010, 12:04 AM
Are you questioning the validity of the baby not feeling well? If so, the friend Terri spoke with at the second store validated that the baby wasn't feeling well. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20013828-504083.html

Not answering for Bluestars, but off-hand I do believe baby K was not feeling well due to the witness statement, however I wonder why she chose to take the baby to the gym when she wasn't feeling well? Was it because she needed an alibi, poor decision making/thinking about herself, or something else? From Terri's own email she stated she drove around trying to get baby K to go to sleep for a few minutes, but no go so off to the gym. Maybe the med started working, but she doesn't say that, in fact she indicated she hadn't slept so makes me wonder anyway. Oh, to know what the gym people said about baby K, etc.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 12:05 AM
LE, Desiree, and Kaine are certainly of the mind that she had an accomplice, and they've backed off Dede as her partner in crime. Were they overzealous in their accusation and implication of Dede in this crime? Is she involved or not? IMHO, they publicly accused her and LE publicly implicated her, and so if she's been cleared, Desiree, Kaine, and LE should publicly clear her. If she's not Terri's accomplice, who is, and shouldn't the public be alerted to the fact that a dangerous child abductor is on the loose?

On another note, how is it that Terri, not savvy enough to avoid batphone and sexting detection, has managed to leave behind no evidence of her alleged crimes or her accomplice? She's stumped 22 LE agencies including the FBI. They're sure she did it, but can't prove it, and they have no idea who helped her.

Curious, that.

Hopefully they have plenty of evidence to convict whoever harmed Kyron. Just because there hasn't been an arrest yet, doesn't mean that evidence isn't being gathered for a prosecution. It would be easier to prosecute someone for murder if the body is found, so maybe that is why an arrest hasn't been made. IMO.

Sometimes people aren't arrested for years. It doesn't mean they don't have evidence though and won't be able to eventually have a successful prosecution.

I don't think they have backed off of Dede at all. Just because they don't think she was the person in the truck doesn't mean they think she was telling the truth. I'll bet there was a lot of information on the text messages of the bat phones.

Jo in Calif
10-13-2010, 12:07 AM
Are you questioning the validity of the baby not feeling well? If so, the friend Terri spoke with at the second store validated that the baby wasn't feeling well. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20013828-504083.html
That's just it Terri said the baby wasn't feeling well, there was a witness that the baby wasn't feeling well. What the he77 would make a loving mother to not take her sick baby straight home and put her in her own bed, for cripes sake.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 12:09 AM
Are you questioning the validity of the baby not feeling well? If so, the friend Terri spoke with at the second store validated that the baby wasn't feeling well. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20013828-504083.html

Not at all. I am questioning her reasoning of taking a sick baby to the day care. She didn't have to be at a job, so it was completely her choice. She chose to drop off her sick baby at a day care. To me it means she either values working out more than taking care of her daughter or she had some other reason for going to the gym that was more important than taking her sick baby home.

miabellamoure
10-13-2010, 12:09 AM
If the baby was so sick, why in the world would she go to the gym and leave the baby in the day care? That's the last thing I would ever do with a sick baby.

Yes...and infect other children in the daycare with a sick child...way to go Terri!

just
10-13-2010, 12:12 AM
LE, Desiree, and Kaine are certainly of the mind that she had an accomplice, and they've backed off Dede as her partner in crime. Were they overzealous in their accusation and implication of Dede in this crime? Is she involved or not? IMHO, they publicly accused her and LE publicly implicated her, and so if she's been cleared, Desiree, Kaine, and LE should publicly clear her. If she's not Terri's accomplice, who is, and shouldn't the public be alerted to the fact that a dangerous child abductor is on the loose?

On another note, how is it that Terri, not savvy enough to avoid batphone and sexting detection, has managed to leave behind no evidence of her alleged crimes or her accomplice? She's stumped 22 LE agencies including the FBI. They're sure she did it, but can't prove it, and they have no idea who helped her.

Curious, that.

Someone pointed out it took 4 months to arrest Scott Peterson. LE has info, they just want it to stick IMHO, and they want all accomplices, if any, to be not only found but also linked to the crime so that they never get out either. Again, IMHO, but if TH didn't do it, then she simply has an amazing amount of weird situations and lies against her - the teacher mishearing her, the pings on SI, being the last to see Kyron, MFH, sexting, bat phones, never coming forward to the media and on and on.

Can all of the above about TH be true and she is innocent? Absolutely, but that's about as likely as Scott Peterson having nothing to do with his pregnant wife's disappearance.

Calliope
10-13-2010, 12:18 AM
Yes. Terri stated in her e-mail to a friend that she told the teacher she was going to look at exhibits and the teacher thought she was taking Kyron with Kitty to the doctor's. So, the teacher thought that morning that Terri was taking him to the doctor's. So did another student, which was reported in the media. Even a deaf person couldn't mix up those two comments (IMO).

Now this is where I get a bit confused. Did Ms P think Terri was taking Kyron to the doc or taking baby to doc's?

Calliope
10-13-2010, 12:21 AM
Hopefully they have plenty of evidence to convict whoever harmed Kyron. Just because there hasn't been an arrest yet, doesn't mean that evidence isn't being gathered for a prosecution. It would be easier to prosecute someone for murder if the body is found, so maybe that is why an arrest hasn't been made. IMO.

Sometimes people aren't arrested for years. It doesn't mean they don't have evidence though and won't be able to eventually have a successful prosecution.

I don't think they have backed off of Dede at all. Just because they don't think she was the person in the truck doesn't mean they think she was telling the truth. I'll bet there was a lot of information on the text messages of the bat phones.
So now we're up to three people involved in this conspiracy to disappear a child? That's where they lose me completely.

gardeness
10-13-2010, 12:25 AM
Not at all. I am questioning her reasoning of taking a sick baby to the day care. She didn't have to be at a job, so it was completely her choice. She chose to drop off her sick baby at a day care. To me it means she either values working out more than taking care of her daughter or she had some other reason for going to the gym that was more important than taking her sick baby home.

Okay--thanks for clarifying!

ETA: Or, Dot2...Toddler K was fussy and feverish and Terri abandoned previous plans and left earlier than she expected to go to the store for medicine...

gwenabob
10-13-2010, 12:29 AM
LE, Desiree, and Kaine are certainly of the mind that she had an accomplice, and they've backed off Dede as her partner in crime. Were they overzealous in their accusation and implication of Dede in this crime? Is she involved or not? IMHO, they publicly accused her and LE publicly implicated her, and so if she's been cleared, Desiree, Kaine, and LE should publicly clear her. If she's not Terri's accomplice, who is, and shouldn't the public be alerted to the fact that a dangerous child abductor is on the loose?

On another note, how is it that Terri, not savvy enough to avoid batphone and sexting detection, has managed to leave behind no evidence of her alleged crimes or her accomplice? She's stumped 22 LE agencies including the FBI. They're sure she did it, but can't prove it, and they have no idea who helped her.

Curious, that.


BBM

What makes you think that? I suspect that she did leave behind evidence of her crimes and her accomplice. I will continue to remind people until this fact sticks: This is not Florida! We do not have sunshine laws! LE does not have to tell us jack squat!

We will find out what evidence they have when they are ready to tell us. Until then, will will just have to sit on our pretty little hands and be patient.

Dee10
10-13-2010, 12:35 AM
Now this is where I get a bit confused. Did Ms P think Terri was taking Kyron to the doc or taking baby to doc's?

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html

Horman went on to talk about Kyronís recent behavior:
"The past 2 weeks he's been acting really weird. Staring off into space. Can't remember anything. Walks into the room and then back out, stopping to stare and then move on. The doc thinks that he is having mini seizures and I made an appt on Thursday for next Friday to have him checked out."


That contradicts what multiple sources have told KATU News. In the days before the science fair, Terri informed Kyronís teacher he had the appointment that day, June 4, which is why no one expected he would be in class and was marked absent.

OneLove
10-13-2010, 12:40 AM
BBM

What makes you think that? I suspect that she did leave behind evidence of her crimes and her accomplice. I will continue to remind people until this fact sticks: This is not Florida! We do not have sunshine laws! LE does not have to tell us jack squat!

We will find out what evidence they have when they are ready to tell us. Until then, will will just have to sit on our pretty little hands and be patient.

Thank YOU! Also, and AGAIN, the fact that the judge felt there was enough evidence to merit the restraining order and deny access to baby K says ALOT. To ignore that HUGE issue seems like massive denial. Judges do NOT do this lightly, or based on "just a hunch".

nonfictionrocks
10-13-2010, 12:52 AM
That contradicts what multiple sources have told KATU News. In the days before the science fair, Terri informed Kyronís teacher he had the appointment that day, June 4, which is why no one expected he would be in class and was marked absent.

respectfully snipped and BBM

Then why would the teacher say (according to TP) to the "sub" that Kyron was probably using the washroom or getting a drink (or something of that nature)? JMO

Dee10
10-13-2010, 12:56 AM
respectfully snipped and BBM

Then why would the teacher say (according to TP) to the "sub" that Kyron was probably using the washroom or getting a drink (or something of that nature)? JMO

I have no idea, I guess TP wasn't one of those multiple sources that contradicted TH.

OneLove
10-13-2010, 01:09 AM
respectfully snipped and BBM

Then why would the teacher say (according to TP) to the "sub" that Kyron was probably using the washroom or getting a drink (or something of that nature)? JMO

Possibly, on the spur of the moment without time to "process", she wanted to calm the sub's obvious sense of panic. And because, usually, using the washroom or getting a drink would be exactly why a student was out of place.

Kat010
10-13-2010, 05:14 AM
Possibly, on the spur of the moment without time to "process", she wanted to calm the sub's obvious sense of panic. And because, usually, using the washroom or getting a drink would be exactly why a student was out of place.

But if she knew that (according to her) TH was taking Kyron to the doctor, why would she lie?

Donjeta
10-13-2010, 06:36 AM
Possibly, on the spur of the moment without time to "process", she wanted to calm the sub's obvious sense of panic. And because, usually, using the washroom or getting a drink would be exactly why a student was out of place.


But if she knew that (according to her) TH was taking Kyron to the doctor, why would she lie?

JMO but if something like what OneLove happened I don't think of it as lying. It happens to me a lot. Something comes up quickly, I blurt out the first thought that pops into my head and then when I have time to reconsider and process information I remember something that makes me realize that my first thought was wrong. If I'm lying I'm already conscious that I'm uttering an untruth at the time I say it, not afterwards. If the teacher didn't remember the alleged appointment at the time this conversation took place it wouldn't be lying imo, it would be just a lapse of memory.

sorrell skye
10-13-2010, 06:41 AM
IMO, either the teacher believed that Kyron was "in the bathroom getting a drink of water", or she believed he had left the school that morning with his SM for a medical appointment.

As far as I'm concerned, she can't have it both ways. She either believed one thing or the other. There is too much confusion about where Kyron was that morning after the touring of the SF (was he in the bathroom, was he getting a drink of water, was he at a DR. appt.?), and IMO much of it is due to conflicting statements allegedly made by the teacher (or reported on her behalf by the school spokesperson).

ETA: But of course, it's TP who doesn't remember what happened the day of the SF. After all, he's just a kid, and he was confused about what he overheard between the teacher & the other adult (according to the school spokesperson).

MOO

Donjeta
10-13-2010, 07:00 AM
If there in fact was some deliberate confusion about the doctor's appointment created by Terri it might easily explain why the teacher was confused about it IMO.

Of course their policy should have been to call the parents if they weren't sure where the child is.

BeanE
10-13-2010, 07:48 AM
Yes...and infect other children in the daycare with a sick child...way to go Terri!

Infect them with teething?

SacreBleu
10-13-2010, 10:08 AM
ETA: Or, Dot2...Toddler K was fussy and feverish and Terri abandoned previous plans and left earlier than she expected to go to the store for medicine...

Obviously, there are a whole bunch of dots between my original 1 and 2. Leaving earlier than expected to go to the store for medicine is perfectly rational (although if I was out of medicine for my child and she was feeling poorly, I think I might have gone to the store prior to going to school - especially if I was "planning" to be there until 10 am when the SF projects were free to go). Driving around on country roads (one of which could have been Skyline Blvd.) for 1-1/2 hours is not rational - imho.

I have a hard time calling Terri a good mother when she takes a sick baby to daycare 2 days in a row. Clearly, either Terri thinks more of herself than her children; or, she needed a witness that the baby was sick (June 3) to support her need to buy medicine on June 4, and she needed that June 4 alibi.

Calliope
10-13-2010, 10:50 AM
That contradicts what multiple sources have told KATU News. In the days before the science fair, Terri informed Kyron’s teacher he had the appointment that day, June 4, which is why no one expected he would be in class and was marked absent.

So who are those sources and how would they have first-hand information about a conversation that took place between Terri and the teacher? And why is it "in the days before" ? If these "multiple sources" had actually witnessed and heard the conversation for themselves, couldn't they pin-point the day this occurred?

FWIW, I don't believe there were "multiple" direct witnesses to the entire conversation Terri had with MsP regarding the exact date of Kyron's doctor's appointment. Sounds like gossip to me.

ellenj
10-13-2010, 10:53 AM
I have a hard time calling Terri a good mother when she takes a sick baby to daycare 2 days in a row. Clearly, either Terri thinks more of herself than her children; or, she needed a witness that the baby was sick (June 3) to support her need to buy medicine on June 4, and she needed that June 4 alibi.

My thoughts exactly. If she has this so tightly wrapped up then of COURSE she was thinking ahead long before D-day and would have made sure to prepare a reason for a "long drive". If she were innocent, wouldn't she have fought relentlessly for access to baby K? If I were unjustly banned from my kids I would have screamed from the rooftops, not hired the best criminal lawyer in town. I think she set the groundwork long before. Was the FM receipt really hers or did she send someone there with her debit card and possibly her truck? I guess LE has checked all that out... IMO of course...

Calliope
10-13-2010, 10:53 AM
Infect them with teething?

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

Calliope
10-13-2010, 11:00 AM
So assuming for a moment that the teacher "knew" Kyron was going to the doctor's on that day, where is the paperwork?

Did she give it to Terri that morning to take to the doc's ?

Jo in Calif
10-13-2010, 11:04 AM
respectfully snipped and BBM

Then why would the teacher say (according to TP) to the "sub" that Kyron was probably using the washroom or getting a drink (or something of that nature)? JMO
The reason TP's statement bothers me so much, is because according to the statement, the chaperon said this after the tour.
There were 5 other students in her group, LE interviewed, I would assume, all of these students and all the students in the class, also the chaperon.
The tour happened after Terri was gone from the school, on her way to the 1st FM, correct? Wouldn't LE therefore name either the chaperon, or one of the other students in the group, as one of the last known persons to see Kyron? I can't imagine TP being the only student in that class hearing the chaperon make that statement and the response from the teacher.
We don't know what kind of statements LE got from the other students, nor TP for that matter, or the chaperon. It just stands to reason, to me anyway, that if TP's statement were true than Terri couldn't have been the last known person to see Kyron, sorry, I'm not buying TP's statements to the media.

Dee10
10-13-2010, 11:06 AM
So who are those sources and how would they have first-hand information about a conversation that took place between Terri and the teacher? And why is it "in the days before" ? If these "multiple sources" had actually witnessed and heard the conversation for themselves, couldn't they pin-point the day this occurred?

FWIW, I don't believe there were "multiple" direct witnesses to the entire conversation Terri had with MsP regarding the exact date of Kyron's doctor's appointment. Sounds like gossip to me.

I didn't take it to mean there are multiple witnesses (strictly) to hearing TH & MsP's conversation; ex. Kyron could have told some of his friends and that would still contradict TH. Didn't one confirm that in the press, although I don't believe they gave his name?

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 12:21 PM
Now this is where I get a bit confused. Did Ms P think Terri was taking Kyron to the doc or taking baby to doc's?

I believe Terri was being confusing about that too. Even in the e-mail she isn't clear, IMO. She blamed the school for being disorganized, the teacher for not hearing her correctly, and an mystery male that she claims was seen with Kyron and two girls after she left. That's a lot of blaming going on.

If I were her, I would have felt tremendously guilty leaving a child, who I claim (in an e-mail) is suffering from seizures and other issues, in a hallway. I would have walked him into class and left him with the teacher if the school was in the middle of a SF with adults and others coming and going.

IMO.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 12:24 PM
So now we're up to three people involved in this conspiracy to disappear a child? That's where they lose me completely.

I find it unbelievable too. However, Terri may have committed the crime and lied to her friends about what happened. If Terri's lies were believable and had to do with things she had been telling them for months, then maybe they would help her. I wouldn't do it, but then again I would never, in a million years, buy a bat phone for someone if their child was discovered missing and they were the last person to be seen with the child. Never. I can't believe anyone would do that for someone.

JMO

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 12:27 PM
respectfully snipped and BBM

Then why would the teacher say (according to TP) to the "sub" that Kyron was probably using the washroom or getting a drink (or something of that nature)? JMO

Why would T's family let talk to the media when LE asked all of the witnesses to remain silent so that what they say won't hurt the investigation of a missing and possibly murdered child? What kind of person would do that and possibly jeopardize the investigation? It boggles the mind.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 12:31 PM
Infect them with teething?

I wonder if it was teething. Would she have to go to two stores to find medicine so rare that the first store ran out if it was just for teething?

Calliope
10-13-2010, 12:33 PM
I didn't take it to mean there are multiple witnesses (strictly) to hearing TH & MsP's conversation; ex. Kyron could have told some of his friends and that would still contradict TH. Didn't one confirm that in the press, although I don't believe they gave his name?

If they didn't witness the conversation and hear for themselves Terri tell MsP "June 4th", then they aren't sources and I take what they have claimed with a huge grain of salt, IMO. It's hearsay and gossip.

Calliope
10-13-2010, 12:35 PM
I wonder if it was teething. Would she have to go to two stores to find medicine so rare that the first store ran out if it was just for teething?

There was talk about the Tylenol recall back at that time. It was on earlier threads; I think someone verified the FM brands were affected.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 12:37 PM
So assuming for a moment that the teacher "knew" Kyron was going to the doctor's on that day, where is the paperwork?

Did she give it to Terri that morning to take to the doc's ?

Maybe Terri said, "Bye. I'm taking Kyron to the doctor's." The only thing we know about the paperwork is something that Terri told her friend and her friend reported to the media. Terri also claimed that Kyron had seizures, but that hasn't been confirmed by his parents.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 12:39 PM
There was talk about the Tylenol recall back at that time. It was on earlier threads; I think someone verified the FM brands were affected.

I would really like to know what kind of medicine she was looking for. I'm sure LE contacted the first FM and confirmed whether or not they were out of that medication on June 4th. It seems like there are several other brands that have the same ingrediants as Tylenol, so it wouldn't seem like it would have required a trip to two stores, but you never know. LE knows though. That's what matters.

Calliope
10-13-2010, 12:47 PM
Maybe Terri said, "Bye. I'm taking Kyron to the doctor's." The only thing we know about the paperwork is something that Terri told her friend and her friend reported to the media. Terri also claimed that Kyron had seizures, but that hasn't been confirmed by his parents.

Actually, Terri didn't claim Kyron had seizures. She described strange behavior and said the doctor was concerned it could be "mini-seizures".

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html

Dee10
10-13-2010, 12:55 PM
If they didn't witness the conversation and hear for themselves Terri tell MsP "June 4th", then they aren't sources and I take what they have claimed with a huge grain of salt, IMO. It's hearsay and gossip.

I disagree, if Kyron had told friends directly, he had a doctors appointment that day; it would support MsP's testimony and it wouldn't be hearsay IMO.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 12:57 PM
Actually, Terri didn't claim Kyron had seizures. She described strange behavior and said the doctor was concerned it could be "mini-seizures".

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html

That's right. I wonder if she told DY or KH about what the doctor said. Surely she would have told them too.

BeanE
10-13-2010, 01:06 PM
Looks to me like like the teacher said Kyron had a doctor's appointment, and the other child overheard it.

The boy's mother, Kim Holm, said her son knew about Kyron Horman's appointment, too.

"And the teacher said, 'I thought he left with his mom,' because they thought they had a doctor appointment," Kim Holm said. "And then at lunchtime - K ate lunch with him every day - he wasn't there at lunchtime. And then I got a call at 4:30ish, saying he didn't get off the bus, I guess. And K said, 'Oh yeah, I knew he was already gone all day, Mom.'"

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/98987454.html

I've never seen anything saying Kyron had told other children he had an appointment.

BeanE
10-13-2010, 01:08 PM
I disagree, if Kyron had told friends directly, he had a doctors appointment that day; it would support MsP's testimony and it wouldn't be hearsay IMO.

Have you found something saying that Kyron told friends he had an appointment?

emmcee
10-13-2010, 01:13 PM
I haven't wavered since the beginning. I still think the simplest explanation is probably correct.

IOW, I believe she planned this and did whatever preparations were necessary the day before or even a few days before, and I think a container is involved.

IF DeDe or any other friends are involved at all I believe it would only be their supporting a friend who they didn't realize at the time was lying to them.

I believe that LE absolutely knows she did it and is still tying up all loose ends in order to have a watertight case.

This is all JMHO.

Calliope
10-13-2010, 01:14 PM
I disagree, if Kyron had told friends directly, he had a doctors appointment that day; it would support MsP's testimony and it wouldn't be hearsay IMO.

Actually, the quote from the link says:


That contradicts what multiple sources have told KATU News. In the days before the science fair, Terri informed Kyron’s teacher he had the appointment that day, June 4

Very clearly stating these "multiple sources" had first hand knowledge of what Terri told teacher. What Kyron may or may not have told his friends has nothing to do with the claim by this reporter.

So those "multiple sources" are saying that Terri informed Kyron's teacher the appointment was on June 4th.

If they were not present to witness the conversation between Terri and Ms P, then it's hearsay and gossip.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 01:32 PM
I haven't wavered since the beginning. I still think the simplest explanation is probably correct.

IOW, I believe she planned this and did whatever preparations were necessary the day before or even a few days before, and I think a container is involved.

IF DeDe or any other friends are involved at all I believe it would only be their supporting a friend who they didn't realize at the time was lying to them.

I believe that LE absolutely knows she did it and is still tying up all loose ends in order to have a watertight case.

This is all JMHO.

Ditto to this. I also think a container was involved because I don't think there is any evidence of a body in the truck. If he was put in a container (Gosh, I hate even saying it!) then there would be less forensic evidence in the vehicle. I believe LE was looking for a suitcase or duffel bag at one time, so maybe that is the container.

:( How sad.

gardeness
10-13-2010, 09:20 PM
Obviously, there are a whole bunch of dots between my original 1 and 2. Leaving earlier than expected to go to the store for medicine is perfectly rational (although if I was out of medicine for my child and she was feeling poorly, I think I might have gone to the store prior to going to school - especially if I was "planning" to be there until 10 am when the SF projects were free to go). Driving around on country roads (one of which could have been Skyline Blvd.) for 1-1/2 hours is not rational - imho.

I have a hard time calling Terri a good mother when she takes a sick baby to daycare 2 days in a row. Clearly, either Terri thinks more of herself than her children; or, she needed a witness that the baby was sick (June 3) to support her need to buy medicine on June 4, and she needed that June 4 alibi.

I would like to speculate more on Terri and her sick daughter, but from raising my own children, I realize that teething and earaches are unpredictable. I have no idea of the severity of K's illness that week. Teething, especially, is random--my children have had bad days interspersed with good and good days interspersed with bad. We've left the house thinking that our child appeared to be over the latest bout, then hurried to finish whatever we set out to do because he became fussy and feverish.

And, sometimes a little anbesol and Tylenol is all the child needs--sometimes, not...

SacreBleu
10-13-2010, 09:28 PM
I would like to speculate more on Terri and her sick daughter, but from raising my own children, I realize that teething and earaches are unpredictable. I have no idea of the severity of K's illness that week. Teething, especially, is random--my children have had bad days interspersed with good and good days interspersed with bad. We've left the house thinking that our child appeared to be over the latest bout, then hurried to finish whatever we set out to do because he became fussy and feverish.

And, sometimes a little anbesol and Tylenol is all the child needs--sometimes, not...

Well, I will admit that it has been awhile since my children were of "teething age," so I will give you the point that perhaps Terri thought babyK was a-ok, only find out that she was not. However, I will have to say that EVEN IF I felt my child was just fine, I had set-out for the day to run errands or do whatever, and it turned out the my child WAS NOT just fine, I would turn my little fritter around and head home - with a possible stop by the drug store or supermarket for more meds, as required. I would not drive-around for 5 minutes trying to sooth my little one. And I most certainly would not head to the gym. I would head home.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 09:43 PM
Didn't the friend who saw Terri at the 2nd FMs say that she knew the baby was sick from the day before? So, was Terri at the gym the day before? She must have been since this person said that she and Terri knew each other only from the gym.

I guess Terri took the sick baby to the gym two days in a row. You would think the day care would not accept a sick baby. The baby must have been sick when dropped off at the gym day care the day before if the friend knew the baby was sick. How else would the friend have known the baby was sick from the day before?

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 09:47 PM
I found the video and
she said that the Terri said the baby hadn't been feeling well the day before and she knew that.

BeanE
10-13-2010, 10:00 PM
I found the video and
she said that the Terri said the baby hadn't been feeling well the day before and she knew that.

No, she didn't say "Terri said". I transcribed it upthread.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 10:07 PM
No, she didn't say "Terri said". I transcribed it upthread.

Andrea said
that "she" (meaning Terri) was talking about her daughter not feeling well because she was not feeling well from the day before and I knew that.

You are right, Terri didn't say that her daughter was not feeling well from the day before, Andrea said that she knew Terri's daughter was not feeling from the day before. So, how did Andrea know Terri's daughter was not feeling well from the day before?

BeanE
10-13-2010, 10:12 PM
Andrea said
that "she" (meaning Terri) was talking about her daughter not feeling well because she was not feeling well from the day before and I knew that.

You are right, Terri didn't say that her daughter was not feeling well from the day before, Andrea said that she knew Terri's daughter was not feeling from the day before. So, how did Andrea know Terri's daughter was not feeling well from the day before?

You'd have to ask her. :) Observation maybe? She's a mom of several kids herself.

Bluestars
10-13-2010, 10:16 PM
You'd have to ask her. :) Observation maybe? She's a mom of several kids herself.

What I mean is that it sounds like Andrea either saw Terri with the baby the day before and noticed she was sick or Terri and Andrea spoke on the phone the day before and Terri mentioned the baby was sick. There had to be some form of communication between the two for Andrea to know from the day before that the baby was sick.

germaine
10-13-2010, 10:25 PM
You'd have to ask her. :) Observation maybe? She's a mom of several kids herself.

so either from observation or from TH, or both, when she dropped her sick baby off at the gym daycare on 6/3 since the witness doesn't know her from outside of the gym and, apparently, didn't bump into her randomly at FM on 6/3. Then TH drops baby off, sick, again, at the gym on 6/4, when the gym folks already know baby isn't feeling well. Or did she? I wonder if the witness was working at the gym when TH was there on 6/4 and wondered why she was putting a sick baby in gym daycare AGAIN. Or did she?

Personally, I'd be embarrassed to put my sick baby in gym childcare two days in a row. Especially after I'd just bumped into the witness at FM trying to buy meds for her. And no one's ever accused me of being mother of the year lol

Calliope
10-13-2010, 11:23 PM
so either from observation or from TH, or both, when she dropped her sick baby off at the gym daycare on 6/3 since the witness doesn't know her from outside of the gym and, apparently, didn't bump into her randomly at FM on 6/3. Then TH drops baby off, sick, again, at the gym on 6/4, when the gym folks already know baby isn't feeling well. Or did she? I wonder if the witness was working at the gym when TH was there on 6/4 and wondered why she was putting a sick baby in gym daycare AGAIN. Or did she?

Personally, I'd be embarrassed to put my sick baby in gym childcare two days in a row. Especially after I'd just bumped into the witness at FM trying to buy meds for her. And no one's ever accused me of being mother of the year lol

Of the daycare my grandson attends, the ones connected to my place of employment, AND the ones at the 2 different gyms I've belonged to over the years --- none accept sick children. If baby was more than simply teething, if she was truly sick and the gym didn't have a separate care area for sick kids, they wouldn't have accepted her. It's a liability and public health issue.

cypress
10-13-2010, 11:50 PM
Of the daycare my grandson attends, the ones connected to my place of employment, AND the ones at the 2 different gyms I've belonged to over the years --- none accept sick children. If baby was more than simply teething, if she was truly sick and the gym didn't have a separate care area for sick kids, they wouldn't have accepted her. It's a liability and public health issue.

Exactly. Teething and sick are not the same, IMHO. K was teething, IMHO. If daycares refused all toddlers who didn't feel well as a result of teething, then there wouldn't be daycares. There would only be kindergarten.

;)

germaine
10-13-2010, 11:52 PM
Of the daycare my grandson attends, the ones connected to my place of employment, AND the ones at the 2 different gyms I've belonged to over the years --- none accept sick children. If baby was more than simply teething, if she was truly sick and the gym didn't have a separate care area for sick kids, they wouldn't have accepted her. It's a liability and public health issue.

Exacty..so either baby wasn't there or she wasn't sick

germaine
10-13-2010, 11:54 PM
Exactly. Teething and sick are not the same, IMHO. K was teething, IMHO. If daycares refused all toddlers who didn't feel well as a result of teething, then there wouldn't be daycares. There would only be kindergarten.

;)

Baby wasn't in daycare. How many sahm's do you know that drop off miserable toddlers at gym day care?

JBean
10-13-2010, 11:56 PM
Baby wasn't in daycare. How many sahm's do you know that drop off miserable toddlers at gym day care?
LOL back in the day the moms dropped them off at daycare to get a break. They would suction their noses real good to make them look clear and then run in and run out. So bad.


Anyway,Ok you guys we need to tie this discussion into your working theories somehow.

Calliope
10-14-2010, 12:00 AM
Exacty..so either baby wasn't there or she wasn't sick

I was responding to this:

Personally, I'd be embarrassed to put my sick baby in gym childcare two days in a row. Especially after I'd just bumped into the witness at FM trying to buy meds for her. And no one's ever accused me of being mother of the year lol

A child can feel and act sick and crappy while teething, but not be infectious (unless they're rabid, I guess). And with a little meds to help with the pain and low grade temp, they generally are able to continue with their usual activities. I'm in healthcare; when I hear "sick baby" I (for the most part) think of one who can infect others. "Civilians" ;) tend to use the term more loosely defined.

Calliope
10-14-2010, 12:05 AM
Baby wasn't in daycare. How many sahm's do you know that drop off miserable toddlers at gym day care?

It's no doubt licensed by the same agencies that oversee daycare operations (that's how it's done in my state, anyway; these places ARE considered in the same category if they care for over a certain number of children, then they must follow the same regulations). I don't know any SAHMs. But I do know that while a child is teething they run the gamut from miserable to active to everything in between. If they have a little tylenol or motrin to help with the pain and temp, they're good to go. Or gnawing on a table leg seems to help, too.

Calliope
10-14-2010, 12:09 AM
LOL back in the day the moms dropped them off at daycare to get a break. They would suction their noses real good to make them look clear and then run in and run out. So bad.


Anyway,Ok you guys we need to tie this discussion into your working theories somehow.

ok ... but I just have to add this about the bolded above. A few days back MSN homepage had a list of the worst kids' stuff ever. There was a battery operated snot-sucker (what ARE those things called LOL --- I've been up far too long). OMG. Poooooor kids. The rubber ones are bad enough.

ETA: ack... I thought I was in the timeline thread LOL

Lavender
10-14-2010, 12:10 AM
Infect them with teething?

My mother just got dentures. I'm going to drop her off at a day care center and see what happens!

Lavender
10-14-2010, 12:31 AM
So assuming for a moment that the teacher "knew" Kyron was going to the doctor's on that day, where is the paperwork?

Did she give it to Terri that morning to take to the doc's ?

Ahhh. And this is the very point that leads me to believe "the appointment" was not manufactured as confusion. If trying to cause deliberate confusion, I think the paperwork was not only unnecessary, itís illogical and problematic. Hereís why I think this:

What happened to that paperwork? There are only 2 scenarios:
1) Porter gave it back to TH on June 4 prior to Kyron going missing.
2) Porter did not give it back to TH and Porter still had/has the paperwork.

If TH wanted to cause deliberate confusion, she'd want that paperwork back. I mean if the whole idea is to plant a thought in Porter's mind that Kyron's appointment is June 4 and manipulate Porter into not worrying if Kyron's not in class, then leaving the paperwork in Porter's possession is completely counter to that.

If Porter has the paperwork AND sees that Kyron is missing, wouldn't TH assume that Porter would think, "Hey, if his appointment was today, why didn't TH get the paperwork from me? This doesn't add up. Somethingís wrong here. I better look for Kyron."

The only way I can see this supposed ruse working is for TH to get the paperwork back on June 4th because Porter having the paperwork + Kyron missing = unlikelihood that Porter would assume Kyronís appointment was June 4th.

To create true confusion, imo, TH needs to get the paperwork back AND somehow get Porter to believe the appointment was June 4th. This is where it really falls apart for me.

TH gave the paperwork to Porter on June 3rd, and that's not enough time for a teacher in the midst of preparing a science fair to actually complete the paperwork. If TH was planning this whole thing for days, weeks?, months?then why wait until June 3rd to give the paperwork to Porter, knowing she'd need to get it back on June 4th to create the whole June 4th appointment ruse?

And isn't getting the paperwork back on June 4th a very risky thing to do? It would mean engaging in a conversation with Porter in which Porter might very well say, "To be clear, Terri, is Kyron's appointment today or next Friday?"

In a nutshell, if confusion was the goal, not getting the paperwork from Porter on June 4th makes no sense to me because it encourages Porter to believe the appointment is not on June 4th. And, retrieving the paperwork from Porter on June 4th makes no sense to me because there's too much opportunity during the paperwork exchange for Porter to pin TH down on the date/time of the appointment and eliminate the confusion TH was allegedly trying to cause. I just can't make it work.

Why is the paperwork even necessary for causing confusion? To me, it isnít. It seems to me that the paperwork is actually problematic and counter to getting Porter to believe that Kyron's appointment was June 4th. IMO, anyone trying to create confusion about the appointment would not have brought paperwork into the mix.

I think Porter used the appointment to rationalize Kyronís absence after the fact. If a different child had gone missing, especially a child whose parent had been present at the expo, I think Porter would have just assumed the child left with the parent. That's my opinion. I think this is more about Porterís thought process than any deliberate plan to create confusion.

I think there was a legitimate doctor appointment on June 11th for a legitimate reason and Terri had every intention of taking Kyron to that appointment. jmho. Kyron didn't make it to that appointment, and that is not insignificant to me when considering various theories.

germaine
10-14-2010, 12:36 AM
It's no doubt licensed by the same agencies that oversee daycare operations (that's how it's done in my state, anyway; these places ARE considered in the same category if they care for over a certain number of children, then they must follow the same regulations). I don't know any SAHMs. But I do know that while a child is teething they run the gamut from miserable to active to everything in between. If they have a little tylenol or motrin to help with the pain and temp, they're good to go. Or gnawing on a table leg seems to help, too.

The post I was responding to said no daycares would be in business if they didn't accept teething toddlers. Which is a whole 'nother issue than a sahm dropping off a miserable teething toddler at optional gym day care two days in a row. That's a choice made out of selfishness, not neccesity of going to work to provide a roof over said toddler's head. If baby was miserable enough for Andrea to know it, for TH to make a trip to two stores to get meds and drive around trying to get baby to sleep with no success, she was too miserable to be taken to the gym child care for the second time. Personally, I think baby was fine considering TH left her playing in her room when she got home. And by the way, what mother lets her toddler play alone in her room when she's in the living room on her laptop? As I said, I'm no model parent, but unless they were sleeping, my babies were in my sight when they were toddlers. Whether they were feeling well or not.

SmoothOperator
10-14-2010, 12:41 AM
Baby wasn't in daycare. How many sahm's do you know that drop off miserable toddlers at gym day care?

Above BBM!
You could not be more correct, germaine!!!!!!!!!!

just
10-14-2010, 01:01 AM
Ahhh. And this is the very point that leads me to believe "the appointment" was not manufactured as confusion... Kyron didn't make it to that appointment, and that is not insignificant to me when considering various theories.

I think TH said to Ms. Porter, "We have a doctor's appointment today," so that she could say it was for the baby, for Kyron, or for herself, depending on how her plan played out. If she got 'discovered' early on with Kyron, she could say 'gosh, I swear I thought that appt was on the 11th!' or 'Kyron wanted to come with me to the doctor with Baby K." She was covering her bases as she's probably done before in different situations of her life that involve lying.

I'm not sure if you believe TH is innocent (and certainly appreciate a different point of view as I'm open to new information), but if so, there are sure alot of very bizarre coincidences that played out that day, and much we've learned since then, that make TH look guilty. And what a lucky perp that would be to have this crazy sexting red-head who tried to murder her husband turn out to be the step-mother of this child he just kidnapped, taking all the attention off him and onto her. :waitasec: