View Full Version : If the plan was to be seen at the school.....
Kimster
07-05-2010, 11:51 PM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
gwenabob
07-05-2010, 11:54 PM
She sent him out the side door under his classroom, down the stairs to the soccer field, and out to the access road where she met him with the truck. Steep slope, tall grass, everyone busy looking at exhibits, nobody sees a thing. And if, by some slim chance someone does, she's got an excuse--he forgot something in the truck. Easy peasy.
http://s780.photobucket.com/albums/yy81/gwenabob/Skyline%20School/
socalgal2
07-06-2010, 12:00 AM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
I truly believe that story about her telling the teacher he had a docotr appt. that day. So to me it makes sense that she had no worries about that. I stopped trying to make sense out of anything after her various stories were not matching up!
This whole case has me:waitasec: My own worry is that Kyron is found.
AlexisFresca
07-06-2010, 12:01 AM
She sent him out the side door under his classroom, down the stairs to the soccer field, and out to the access road where she met him with the truck. Steep slope, tall grass, everyone busy looking at exhibits, nobody sees a thing. And if, by some slim chance someone does, she's got an excuse--he forgot something in the truck. Easy peasy.
http://s780.photobucket.com/albums/yy81/gwenabob/Skyline%20School/
OK, playing devil's advocate here. I know its commons for all doors to be locked form the outside, save the one dedicated to being open for visitors to access the school. (Although, our kids' school, all doors are locked from the outside; you have to hit a buzzer outside. There is a camera aimed at the door and when they see who it is, they hit the buzzer internally, unlocking the door electronically so you can enter the school).
So back to Skyline School. If the front doors were open, and again thinking of other schools, isn't it customary that if a door that is locked from the outside, thats NOT a main door, to be wired to activate an alarm if its used as an exit unofficially? I know they get unactivated during a fire drill, but otherwise, don't they have alarms on them to make sure no one is exiting (like a kid wanting to cut class, for example?).
IF Skyline school had such alarms on their doors (does anyone know?) then if Kyron exited out the side door, wouldn't it be known? :waitasec:
DairyGirl
07-06-2010, 12:05 AM
I think she hid in plain sight, so to speak. No one is going to think twice about a child walking with his mother. I think she knew there would be nobody paying attention and that no one saw her as they walked to the truck. I think if she did see someone she would have proceeded to plan B, act like nothing was wrong and continue to take him home and not take any action. Who knows, she may have tried this before and didn't carry it out because she knew she had been seen. This time she was confident that no one saw her because no one did. It would be much easier to take one's one child out then if a different person tried it.
laini
07-06-2010, 12:06 AM
So back to Skyline School. If the front doors were open, and again thinking of other schools, isn't it customary that if a door that is locked from the outside, thats NOT a main door, to be wired to activate an alarm if its used as an exit unofficially? I know they get unactivated during a fire drill, but otherwise, don't they have alarms on them to make sure no one is exiting (like a kid wanting to cut class, for example?).
IF Skyline school had such alarms on their doors (does anyone know?) then if Kyron exited out the side door, wouldn't it be known? :waitasec:
Our schools' locked doors don't have an alarm - none of them.
Melanie
07-06-2010, 12:06 AM
I truly believe that story about her telling the teacher he had a docotr appt. that day. So to me it makes sense that she had no worries about that. I stopped trying to make sense out of anything after her various stories were not matching up!
This whole case has me:waitasec: My own worry is that Kyron is found.
I thought the doctor appt. was a rumour? I've yet to find a linky on it. Also, if she lied to the teacher, doesn't that point the finger right at her -- especially if Kyron didn't go to a doctor? I also thought there were no witnesses seeing Kyron leave -- only going to the first class where she says goodbye and leaves.
Confused!
Mel
McDonough
07-06-2010, 12:13 AM
Our schools' locked doors don't have an alarm - none of them.
It's the same at our daughter's school - all doors are locked from the outside but no alarm is sounded if they are opened from the inside.
Considering that it was science fair day I'm assuming that there were other parents coming and going that morning with their kids. If TH left with Kyron early enough that there was considerable parent and student traffic still arriving at the school that morning then there is a very good chance that no one would give a second look to a mom and her son heading to the parking lot, possibly to retrieve a forgotten piece of a project. There is a very good chance that they passed others while leaving but since everyone was focused on their own tasks they probably paid no attention to TH and Kyron.
RandomThoughts
07-06-2010, 12:19 AM
OK, playing devil's advocate here. I know its commons for all doors to be locked form the outside, save the one dedicated to being open for visitors to access the school. (Although, our kids' school, all doors are locked from the outside; you have to hit a buzzer outside. There is a camera aimed at the door and when they see who it is, they hit the buzzer internally, unlocking the door electronically so you can enter the school).
So back to Skyline School. If the front doors were open, and again thinking of other schools, isn't it customary that if a door that is locked from the outside, thats NOT a main door, to be wired to activate an alarm if its used as an exit unofficially? I know they get unactivated during a fire drill, but otherwise, don't they have alarms on them to make sure no one is exiting (like a kid wanting to cut class, for example?).
IF Skyline school had such alarms on their doors (does anyone know?) then if Kyron exited out the side door, wouldn't it be known? :waitasec:
The school my kids go to don't have alarms on the doors. When I was at the elementary school last week I counted 11 doors. During the school year only one door is unlocked from the outside, and anyone can walk in that way, and then walk out/let someone in through any of the other doors without anyone knowing.
The high school has the camera at the main entrance, and cameras in the hallway clocks, but when I had to call about my daughter being bullied in between classes I was told that none of the cameras are working so there wasn't much they could do about it.
IMO, since TH was known at the school, no one would think anything of Kyron leaving with her. She could have even had him walk right in front of her and no one would have seen him from the back. MOO, it would have been harder for a non parent to get him out of there.
ClueMeIn
07-06-2010, 12:23 AM
Kim! You are back to square one! I feel dizzy!
socalgal2
07-06-2010, 12:26 AM
I thought the doctor appt. was a rumour? I've yet to find a linky on it. Also, if she lied to the teacher, doesn't that point the finger right at her -- especially if Kyron didn't go to a doctor? I also thought there were no witnesses seeing Kyron leave -- only going to the first class where she says goodbye and leaves.
Confused!
Mel
I was just giving a senario that had been reported by friends etc. in approved media per TOS . YES in hind site, if the first account of telling the teacher that morn. is true she definately pointed a big finger right at herself!
It would not be a worry for her on an issue of leaving with Kyron. It wouldn't raise red flags.
What I can't stomach is the ensuing reports from her friends weeks later that she told them the teach. was new,deaf,etc. That was a big grasping turning point from Terri in MOO!
We don't know the 100% events that took place because we haven't been given much ino from LE:innocent:
There are so many rumours, speculation, interviews from friends it makes my head spin.:banghead::banghead::banghead:
As always this is :cow::cow::cow:
McDonough
07-06-2010, 12:27 AM
The school my kids go to don't have alarms on the doors. When I was at the elementary school last week I counted 11 doors. During the school year only one door is unlocked from the outside, and anyone can walk in that way, and then walk out/let someone in through any of the other doors without anyone knowing.
The high school has the camera at the main entrance, and cameras in the hallway clocks, but when I had to call about my daughter being bullied in between classes I was told that none of the cameras are working so there wasn't much they could do about it.
IMO, since TH was known at the school, no one would think anything of Kyron leaving with her. She could have even had him walk right in front of her and no one would have seen him from the back. MOO, it would have been harder for a non parent to get him out of there.
Exactly. Every day of the past year I took my girls to school, most of those days I was inside the building for one reason or another, I probably even talked to a few moms/teachers while there. Looking back, I doubt that I could name most of the people I spoke to at the end of the day because chances are I was more focused on whatever task I was completing with my kids and not really paying attention to those coming and going around you, even if I did talk to them. If it wasn't something out of the ordinary then chances are it just didn't always register in my mind. I'm guessing that while LE interviewed many of the parents and teachers that were there this morning there is a chance that at least some of them may have seen TH and Kyron leave the building one last time (if that did in fact happen) and didn't even realize what they saw.
Mrs G Norris
07-06-2010, 12:33 AM
She sent him out the side door under his classroom, down the stairs to the soccer field, and out to the access road where she met him with the truck. Steep slope, tall grass, everyone busy looking at exhibits, nobody sees a thing. And if, by some slim chance someone does, she's got an excuse--he forgot something in the truck. Easy peasy.
http://s780.photobucket.com/albums/yy81/gwenabob/Skyline%20School/
Agree....and it fits in with the story from T....I wonder what she told him she was going to do...take him out for a quick treat no doubt for doing so well, I can see him running down those stairs all excited too. :furious:
citigirl
07-06-2010, 12:33 AM
The problems with some of these scenarios is that she and Kyron could have been seen leaving the school. How could she count on the fact that nobody would see her? I think an accomplice was involved.
AlexisFresca
07-06-2010, 12:37 AM
The problems with some of these scenarios is that she and Kyron could have been seen leaving the school. How could she count on the fact that nobody would see her? I think an accomplice was involved.
I remember reading there was only one way in the school and one way out, like one drive only, or something like that? So if she had him exit via the side door, she could have driven around to the side of the building he was at. If it wasn't a main door theres a chance there was little to no traffic on it. I can't remember what thread it was, but someone had a link to photos of the school and the door suspected Kyron could have exited. Looked like a one lane road?
Just a thought, of course.
BlOnDe_GuRrL
07-06-2010, 12:41 AM
This is why I think someone at the school could be involved...
I'd be looking at the teachers or other staff!
gwenabob
07-06-2010, 12:42 AM
OK, playing devil's advocate here. I know its commons for all doors to be locked form the outside, save the one dedicated to being open for visitors to access the school. (Although, our kids' school, all doors are locked from the outside; you have to hit a buzzer outside. There is a camera aimed at the door and when they see who it is, they hit the buzzer internally, unlocking the door electronically so you can enter the school).
So back to Skyline School. If the front doors were open, and again thinking of other schools, isn't it customary that if a door that is locked from the outside, thats NOT a main door, to be wired to activate an alarm if its used as an exit unofficially? I know they get unactivated during a fire drill, but otherwise, don't they have alarms on them to make sure no one is exiting (like a kid wanting to cut class, for example?).
IF Skyline school had such alarms on their doors (does anyone know?) then if Kyron exited out the side door, wouldn't it be known? :waitasec:
In a nice new modern school? Yeah--alarms on the doors that shouldn't be opened except for emergency.
In a ca 1930 brick school in a school district that is looking at a $19M shortfall next year? No way. Right now they are looking at cutting all PE teachers for all K-8. Retrofitting schools for alarms are not really at the top of the priority list.
gwenabob
07-06-2010, 12:45 AM
Agree....and it fits in with the story from T....I wonder what she told him she was going to do...take him out for a quick treat no doubt for doing so well, I can see him running down those stairs all excited too. :furious:
I think she told him she was going to show him a "cool electric" something.
socalgal2
07-06-2010, 12:57 AM
The problems with some of these scenarios is that she and Kyron could have been seen leaving the school. How could she count on the fact that nobody would see her? .
*Respectivly snipped a piece.
I chalk up all the speculations, rumours, senarios,it was Colonel Mustard in the pantry with a butter knife, to the fact that LE left us wonderful sleuthers
with hardly any info for a month! Oh the humanity!! :crazy: :crazy::dance::dance:
:cow::cow:
RandomThoughts
07-06-2010, 12:59 AM
She sent him out the side door under his classroom, down the stairs to the soccer field, and out to the access road where she met him with the truck. Steep slope, tall grass, everyone busy looking at exhibits, nobody sees a thing. And if, by some slim chance someone does, she's got an excuse--he forgot something in the truck. Easy peasy.
http://s780.photobucket.com/albums/yy81/gwenabob/Skyline%20School/
Respectfully, I could see this as working other than DY and KH stating in one of the interviews how Kyron wouldn't go too far from his home and that he stayed in bed till someone went to get him. Add to that them saying he was only adventurous if he was right next to one of them, and then I can't see it working. MOO
WholeLottaRosie
07-06-2010, 01:00 AM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
I don't know why, but, you have hit on the one thing that makes me doubt SM is involved. I can't get past this one in any way to make her look guilty.
GrainneDhu
07-06-2010, 01:08 AM
I was just giving a senario that had been reported by friends etc. in approved media per TOS . YES in hind site, if the first account of telling the teacher that morn. is true she definately pointed a big finger right at herself!
It would not be a worry for her on an issue of leaving with Kyron. It wouldn't raise red flags.
What I can't stomach is the ensuing reports from her friends weeks later that she told them the teach. was new,deaf,etc. That was a big grasping turning point from Terri in MOO!
We don't know the 100% events that took place because we haven't been given much ino from LE:innocent:
There are so many rumours, speculation, interviews from friends it makes my head spin.:banghead::banghead::banghead:
As always this is :cow::cow::cow:
BBM
For sure, if TMH told her friend that the teacher was new, hard of hearing, etc, that would be a red flag.
The problem with that is something that can be seen right here on WebSleuths, despite the mods' best efforts at quashing unsupported rumours.
What one person says is not always what the next person hears. And what that person hears is not always exactly what they say to the next person. And so on.
Look at the number of times people have been asked for links to support an allegation and have been unable to provide one. I don't believe that those posters are lying; far from it. I believe that human memory is faulty and when there are many sources of information, the human memory starts to jumble them all up and confuse or conflate them.
So when I hear that a friend of TMH says that TMH told her something, I have to wonder did TMH really say that? Or did the friend read speculation or rumour somewhere and confuse it with something she thought TMH said?
cluciano63
07-06-2010, 01:09 AM
I think she was more worried about making sure Kyron was seen after she left...and thought for sure he would be since she (said she) left him in the hall. Which she may have, to go pull truck around, but still, she probably figured someone would see Kyron in those few minutes, which would have been enough...only no one did...so it led back to her.
DairyGirl
07-06-2010, 01:10 AM
I don't know why, but, you have hit on the one thing that makes me doubt SM is involved. I can't get past this one in any way to make her look guilty.
But for one fact. No one saw Kyron leave with anyone. Yet we know he had to because he is gone.
jessigirl
07-06-2010, 01:16 AM
The problems with some of these scenarios is that she and Kyron could have been seen leaving the school. How could she count on the fact that nobody would see her? I think an accomplice was involved.
But then you have the exact same question you posed how would no one see them and count on that fact?
IMO much more likely to not draw any attn or even memory of him with stepmom.
And gwenabob after having seen all your pics from Skyline I believe your scenario is quite plausible.
WholeLottaRosie
07-06-2010, 01:19 AM
But for one fact. No one saw Kyron leave with anyone. Yet we know he had to because he is gone.
True, but, that doesn't mean the SM is responsible.
Mrs G Norris
07-06-2010, 01:19 AM
I think she told him she was going to show him a "cool electric" something.
Yep I agree...then took him out for the shock of his life...It's like a little 'c'mon Kyron playing by the rules is so boring, let's go have a secret adventure, it'll be our little secret' well that's how I see it anyway....so typically psychopathic.
The poor kid probably thought she was finally giving him some much needed special attention.
Charlie09
07-06-2010, 04:05 AM
It's the same at our daughter's school - all doors are locked from the outside but no alarm is sounded if they are opened from the inside.
Considering that it was science fair day I'm assuming that there were other parents coming and going that morning with their kids. If TH left with Kyron early enough that there was considerable parent and student traffic still arriving at the school that morning then there is a very good chance that no one would give a second look to a mom and her son heading to the parking lot, possibly to retrieve a forgotten piece of a project. There is a very good chance that they passed others while leaving but since everyone was focused on their own tasks they probably paid no attention to TH and Kyron.
My daughter goes to a smaller school - but it's k-8. I can tell you every parent I saw for K-3rd grade on promotion night. If I waved or said hello to any of the older kids or their parents, I could tell you who was there. I could also still tell you the two kids who didn't come - and there were more than 100 people there. I just don't buy that NO one saw them coming and going or getting into the truck together in the daytime, in the open, or didn't notice her pulled over at a weird spot.
winterrose
07-06-2010, 04:32 AM
Everytime I think about anyone taking him that morning when he was so excited about the science fair,and other events of that day.The school picnic and end of year events,vacations coming for the summer,it makes me sick and so sad for this poor little child.I can't figure out for the life of me how he was taken out without anyone seeing him with anyone.Maybe someone helped by having a vehicle at the door and she went in her truck alone.This is the one thing that makes me question if it was her,but noone even saw her leave.
Cher352
07-06-2010, 04:43 AM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
BBM
Someone mentioned this another thread....
Maybe the email she sent to the teacher about when to pick up the project was sent as a test to see if she got away with Kyron unseen. If the teacher replied mentioning that they knew Kyron was with her when she left she would have to come up with another story to tell.
Cher352
07-06-2010, 05:03 AM
This is why I think someone at the school could be involved...
I'd be looking at the teachers or other staff!
I am beginning to wonder too about that....again!
I remember the statement made by K & D about them working with Kyron on problems at school obeying or something like that. Don't know what it is but that statement along with the one where they talked about him staying in bed until someone went to get him up sounds weird.
Maybe someone at the school thought for some reason he would be better off without his real family. I thought about it several times when I recall the part about where the teacher brushed off the sub/helper when she mentioned about Kyron not being with the group that morning by saying he must have gone to the bathroom or to get a drink of water?
I don't know about this case at all, I tend to think one thing only to have it change again and again.
carole
07-06-2010, 05:04 AM
Has LE actually stated that no one saw Kyron leave the school with Terri?
Cher352
07-06-2010, 05:07 AM
Has LE actually stated that no one saw Kyron leave the school with Terri?
Come to think of it...no I don't believe so.
sofia76
07-06-2010, 05:13 AM
My daughter goes to a smaller school - but it's k-8. I can tell you every parent I saw for K-3rd grade on promotion night. If I waved or said hello to any of the older kids or their parents, I could tell you who was there. I could also still tell you the two kids who didn't come - and there were more than 100 people there. I just don't buy that NO one saw them coming and going or getting into the truck together in the daytime, in the open, or didn't notice her pulled over at a weird spot.
I don't think most people are as attentive as you are. But it's also possible that someone did see him or Terri leave the school. LE interviewed several hundred people (more than once). The only person we (the public) have heard about is the classmate of Kyron, who was told by FBI not to talk to the media. Just because we haven't heard anything doesn't mean no one has reported seeing anything.
June 19th, Gates (LE) said, ""Terri is the last known person to have seen Kyron alive before he disappeared." (http://www.kval.com/news/local/96724314.html) This was after interviewing all the students and staff at the school, but before putting out the questionnaire. We haven't heard anything about the results of the questionnaire.
DairyGirl
07-06-2010, 05:16 AM
True, but, that doesn't mean the SM is responsible.
All it means is he was able to be taken out unnoticed. By whomever.
Eta and no one noticed TH leaving.
TobyWong*
07-06-2010, 06:34 AM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
I have been in my sons school early in th morning when maybe only 3 other people have been there and maybe only been seen by one of them and that was from the other end of the hallway. I know if i go out the back or side door that I would'nt run into anyone. No alarms or cameras. During the day all doors are supposed to be locked but I have gained entry through the gym doors, the custodial doors or a back door propped open for air. I know that i could park right in the parking lot but near the end and could tell him to race me and I can go out one door and him out the closest side door and no one would know he had even been there. I believe she set this poor boy up. Prolly told him to go hang his stuff up in his room, took his picture and told him to race her down to the truck and they could go grab b'fast. Especially since she was known to be involved at this school. She would know that if she got there early she could set up her alibi and not care if people saw her. She was supposed to be there and so was Kyron. They just wer'nt supposed to leave together.
oh_gal
07-06-2010, 06:42 AM
I think she hid in plain sight, so to speak. No one is going to think twice about a child walking with his mother. I think she knew there would be nobody paying attention and that no one saw her as they walked to the truck. I think if she did see someone she would have proceeded to plan B, act like nothing was wrong and continue to take him home and not take any action. Who knows, she may have tried this before and didn't carry it out because she knew she had been seen. This time she was confident that no one saw her because no one did. It would be much easier to take one's one child out then if a different person tried it.
I've always heard that the easiest thing to steal in store is a canoe. (Presumably because no one's going to question you carrying a canoe out -- they'd figure you bought it). Your theory made me think of that.
cindysue
07-06-2010, 08:54 AM
Well we know she went early that day and from the picture she took there werent many people around at that time. She probably left shortly after that before most of the other people arrived. If someone else was responsible they would have to know just when he arrived and just hang around till TH left the school. If it was someone at the school they would have opportuinty to do it at any time during the school year, this was the only time probably that TH brought him to school cause he was a busrider usually.This was probably the only time she could pass his dissapearence off on someone else to, seriously what other opportunity might she have had other than this one? And if someone saw her go to the car with him she could always say they forgot something in the car and were retreiving it and that he later went back in and she waved to him goodbye from the hall. I mean no one is going to stand around and watch her every move there is always an excuse for your actions.
evelyn24
07-06-2010, 09:19 AM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
Well, he's missing, so someone was able to get him to leave without anyone noticing.
If anything, only someone who could blend in well, and only someone who had the power to manipulate Kyron's teacher into thinking he was leaving for the day, could get away with this because they never called home or reported him absent.
SweetLaura286
07-06-2010, 09:25 AM
Well, he's missing, so someone was able to get him to leave without anyone noticing.
(Respectfully snipped by me)
Thank you for this comment. People seem so focused on how did she know she wasn't going to be seen? However, he dissappeared with SOMEONE (TH or not) unseen....
oceanblueeyes
07-06-2010, 09:28 AM
This is the biggest hangup I have had about this case from the very beginning.
While some have said that she picked this day because everyone would be busy with so many people there, I just cant wrap my mind around that. I think back to when my own children when they had science fair exhibits and it was a day of repeated conversations of "well hi there, xxxxx, so nice to see you again." yada, yada, yada etc. Seeing many that I hadn't seen in awhile but knew I was the mother of the children they knew and knew I had volunteered at the school. Many of them coming up and saying "oh aren't you xxxxxxx's, mom?"
Terri knew parents,students, teachers, school staff and rightly or wrongly they thought she was Kyron's bio mother, imo and Kyron had attended this same school since the beginning.
To me someone less noticed or unassuming could have taken Kyron out of there without being detected than the woman with the flaming red hair that so many people knew there. Especially if it didn't register that this person wasnt a family member since Kyron would not with his mother so they could put two and two together.
Maybe she did this, but if so it will remain a mystery how she could have pulled this off with that school being packed with 300 people (many who would have to know her by sight) and no one saw her leave with Kyron.
IMO
evelyn24
07-06-2010, 09:28 AM
Well we know she went early that day and from the picture she took there weren't many people around at that time. She probably left shortly after that before most of the other people arrived. If someone else was responsible they would have to know just when he arrived and just hang around till TH left the school. If it was someone at the school they would have opportunity to do it at any time during the school year, this was the only time probably that TH brought him to school cause he was a bus-rider usually.This was probably the only time she could pass his disappearance off on someone else to, seriously what other opportunity might she have had other than this one? And if someone saw her go to the car with him she could always say they forgot something in the car and were retrieving it and that he later went back in and she waved to him goodbye from the hall. I mean no one is going to stand around and watch her every move there is always an excuse for your actions.
Yep. I don't think she was too worried about being seen because of what you just mentioned. Also, you're correct about people were busy and not watching her every move and she knew this.
evelyn24
07-06-2010, 09:32 AM
Has LE actually stated that no one saw Kyron leave the school with Terri?
Good point.
tlcya
07-06-2010, 09:35 AM
If the plan was to have Kyron seen at the school, why not go one step further and be seen all around town that day by as many witnesses as possible WITHOUT Kyron in your care? Why instead, spend your day in ways you cannot account to LE?
IF the disappareance was planned by Terri to ocur on that day in that way, why not have it further planned out so that your time can later be accounted for by LE?
It just doesn't add up to me. I really doesn't.
tlcya
07-06-2010, 09:37 AM
Yep. I don't think she was too worried about being seen because of what you just mentioned. Also, you're correct about people were busy and not watching her every move and she knew this.
If you plan to kidnap/harm your stepchild and make a big show of dropping him off at school so he can disappear on the school's watch rather than yours, wouldn't you make darn sure people noticed you leaving UNACCOMPANIED by said stepchild? I know I would.
kgeaux
07-06-2010, 09:39 AM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
The only way it makes sense to me that no one saw Kyron leave with anyone is that someone got incredibly lucky. No way could someone PLAN to be so lucky. :twocents:
She sent him out the side door under his classroom, down the stairs to the soccer field, and out to the access road where she met him with the truck. Steep slope, tall grass, everyone busy looking at exhibits, nobody sees a thing. And if, by some slim chance someone does, she's got an excuse--he forgot something in the truck. Easy peasy.
http://s780.photobucket.com/albums/yy81/gwenabob/Skyline%20School/
He forgot something in the truck, and she had already left the parking lot, so he chased her down to the access road? I'm just not seeing this as a viable theory.
I don't know why, but, you have hit on the one thing that makes me doubt SM is involved. I can't get past this one in any way to make her look guilty.
The fact is that Kyron was last seen inside the school, according to LE. He was not seen leaving the school with anyone. Yet, obviously he did leave the school with someone.
I'm curious; how do you think those facts point particularly to SM?
evelyn24
07-06-2010, 09:40 AM
If the plan was to have Kyron seen at the school, why not go one step further and be seen all around town that day by as many witnesses as possible WITHOUT Kyron in your care? Why instead, spend your day in ways you cannot account to LE?
IF the disappareance was planned by Terri to ocur on that day in that way, why not have it further planned out so that your time can later be accounted for by LE?
It just doesn't add up to me. I really doesn't.
If she's responsible for his disappearance I'm sure she needed to do other things and was unable to drive around without him in the truck just to be seen.
IF she did this then there had to be a point where the last thing she wanted to do was be seen. In other words she had to get rid of him, hide evidence, go home and pretend everything was ok; posting pics on facebook etc.
A plan is never perfect.
momtective
07-06-2010, 09:41 AM
I think she told him she was going to show him a "cool electric" something.
Me too...maybe she has a friend who an electrician or something. Maybe she told Kyron she was taking him to see her friend who would show him a cool electric project. With the Sauvie thing I had initially thought maybe she told him she was taking him to see a dam. Whatever she told him, I think it had something to do with a cool electric "something" and he went where he told his friend he was going...downstairs. Isn't that where the door is to the soccer field?
evelyn24
07-06-2010, 09:42 AM
The only way it makes sense to me that no one saw Kyron leave with anyone is that someone got incredibly lucky. No way could someone PLAN to be so lucky. :twocents:
He forgot something in the truck, and she had already left the parking lot, so he chased her down to the access road? I'm just not seeing this as a viable theory.
The fact is that Kyron was last seen inside the school, according to LE. He was not seen leaving the school with anyone. Yet, obviously he did leave the school with someone.
I'm curious; how do you think those facts point particularly to SM?
Some times it is "luck" or timing involved even when there is a plan.
SusieMom
07-06-2010, 09:48 AM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
This is exactly my sticking point.... not that it *could* have happened.. sure somebody could have walked out the door with a live and well Kyron without anyone noticing. Clearly that could happen.... however it would be pure chance, not in any way something that a person could have *counted* on so, IMO, no one in their right mind other than a complete stranger would have taken that risk... Its hard to believe that TH, being well known to this very small school community would have considered this her best plan. Another mom pulling into the parking lot at that exact moment, etc somebody glancing out a window.. about a zillion ways she could have been seen, many that she would have no way of knowing about. As a key part of a possible premeditated plan, it would have been a terrible choice, especially in a season and location where "losing" a kid in remote place wouldn't have been that hard.
So if she did walk out the door with him, IMO, she's 1. very far gone mentally, which perhaps if recently reported alleged events are proven true would support and 2. extremely lucky, b/c I really do think that if they had a single credible eyewitness that saw her leave the school property with Kyron, she would have already been arrested by now.
I still have lots and lots of uncertainty.. this is the weirdest case ever.
GrainneDhu
07-06-2010, 09:52 AM
If the plan was to have Kyron seen at the school, why not go one step further and be seen all around town that day by as many witnesses as possible WITHOUT Kyron in your care? Why instead, spend your day in ways you cannot account to LE?
IF the disappareance was planned by Terri to ocur on that day in that way, why not have it further planned out so that your time can later be accounted for by LE?
It just doesn't add up to me. I really doesn't.
That's what makes me think that it was not premeditated, if TMH is the perpetrator (I'm not convinced but I'm leaning). I think if this were premeditated, the temptation would be overwhelming to do too much, to try too hard for an alibi.
In any case, better a very loose and difficult to confirm story because there would, of necessity, be a slice of about an hour or so to kill Kyron and dispose of his body. And then get over whatever emotional aftermath there was. It wouldn't do to have witnesses saying "yes, she came in at 10 am, dishevelled and looking really agitated."
Far better to drive around for awhile afterwards, get her composure back, then head home and pick up her day as if everything was normal.
Better for there to be no witnesses than for there to be damaging ones.
Wise Old Owl
07-06-2010, 09:54 AM
ITA susie - but remember WE don't know that someone hasn't surfaced that saw her leave with him. Then LE goes back to TH and asks her about it. She could very easily say - he forgot his lunch, homework, whatever, in the truck and just came out to get it - I walked him back in and up the stairs to watch him walk down the hallway.
We just don't know. IMO I believe TH is "thumbing her nose" at LE and everything they ask her. AND for everything they ask her - she has an answer - a viable, credible, no way to prove otherwise, answer.
I, too, believe she is mentally unstable - but not to the point that she can't carry on with a very cunning plot.
oceanblueeyes
07-06-2010, 10:01 AM
ITA susie - but remember WE don't know that someone hasn't surfaced that saw her leave with him. Then LE goes back to TH and asks her about it. She could very easily say - he forgot his lunch, homework, whatever, in the truck and just came out to get it - I walked him back in and up the stairs to watch him walk down the hallway.
We just don't know. IMO I believe TH is "thumbing her nose" at LE and everything they ask her. AND for everything they ask her - she has an answer - a viable, credible, no way to prove otherwise, answer.
I, too, believe she is mentally unstable - but not to the point that she can't carry on with a very cunning plot.
I think if LE had a credible witness or witnesses that saw Kyron leaving with Terri that day this case would have long ago ended in an arrest.
Imo, no one saw Kyron leaving with his mother that day.
IMO
oceanblueeyes
07-06-2010, 10:03 AM
That's what makes me think that it was not premeditated, if TMH is the perpetrator (I'm not convinced but I'm leaning). I think if this were premeditated, the temptation would be overwhelming to do too much, to try too hard for an alibi.
In any case, better a very loose and difficult to confirm story because there would, of necessity, be a slice of about an hour or so to kill Kyron and dispose of his body. And then get over whatever emotional aftermath there was. It wouldn't do to have witnesses saying "yes, she came in at 10 am, dishevelled and looking really agitated."
Far better to drive around for awhile afterwards, get her composure back, then head home and pick up her day as if everything was normal.
Better for there to be no witnesses than for there to be damaging ones.
To me if she had planned this all out and it was premediated she would have made SURE several people (adults) saw her leaving alone that day.
IMO
matou
07-06-2010, 10:06 AM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
I'm sure she has an accomplice. She placed herself as far away from Kyron when she waved 'bye' to him and took a separate stairwell just before this. She did want to be at the school and be seen with him and then separated herself from him while in the school. Why? Signaling to the accomplice in the stairwell? Gotta go right now but I'll expand on this later.
tlcya
07-06-2010, 10:08 AM
I am in an unhappy marriage, I suspect my husband is having an affair, so I hire a landscaper and approach him about murdering my husband. If you are in an unhappy marriage and want ou tthe easist way is divorce, not murder. I must assume IF this plot took place that the motive is financial.
How does Kyron's disappareance factor in? If the motive for that was financial, then it would be interesting to know if there is life insurance on little Kyron. Even so, this theory feels wrong because there must be a proof of death for a life insurance payout, or a long seven year wait to declare him dead.
I keep trying to find a theory to fit the circumstance and nothing is adding up. It just isn't.
GrainneDhu
07-06-2010, 10:12 AM
This is exactly my sticking point.... not that it *could* have happened.. sure somebody could have walked out the door with a live and well Kyron without anyone noticing. Clearly that could happen.... however it would be pure chance, not in any way something that a person could have *counted* on so, IMO, no one in their right mind other than a complete stranger would have taken that risk... Its hard to believe that TH, being well known to this very small school community would have considered this her best plan. Another mom pulling into the parking lot at that exact moment, etc somebody glancing out a window.. about a zillion ways she could have been seen, many that she would have no way of knowing about. As a key part of a possible premeditated plan, it would have been a terrible choice, especially in a season and location where "losing" a kid in remote place wouldn't have been that hard.
All of the above is predicated on the idea that TMH could not be seen leaving the school building with Kyron or she'd be much more of a suspect. Enough of a suspect that she'd probably be arrested by now.
But, why would this be? She was his stepmother, she was there for a legitimate reason, it would be the most natural thing in the world for them to be seen walking out of the school building together.
The trick is that she would need to be able to give it a reasonable, logical and believable explanation.
I think it's well established as fact that TMH and Kyron were in the school building together that morning around 8:15 am. She took pictures of him with his exhibit that included two adults and one little girl in the background, plus the president of the PTA witnessed her taking the pictures.
What if TMH and Kyron left the school building together right after those photos were taken?
The problem for TMH is that she doesn't want to be the last known witness.
So. Do a little simple re-arranging of the time line and it all works much better.
The solution could be to tell LE that after she arrived at school with Kyron, they went in together. Then she remembered that Kyron had left something (probably his backpack) in the truck and they walked back out together to get it. Then, after they came back in together, they toured, she took the photo, etc.
That would nearly neutralise any potential witness who saw them leave the building together. Sure, they left together but they came back together, look at this photo! The discrepancy in times would probably be less than ten minutes. It wouldn't be likely that any potential witness checked the time, so that would be a minuscule risk.
Several WebSleuths posters have said that they would notice which parents and children were at the school for such a function and I don't doubt them. Some people remember people, some don't. But I don't see anyone who has posted that they could nail down within a matter of five minutes the time they saw a parent or child.
Wise Old Owl
07-06-2010, 10:12 AM
I am in an unhappy marriage, I suspect my husband is having an affair, so I hire a landscaper and approach him about murdering my husband. If you are in an unhappy marriage and want ou tthe easist way is divorce, not murder. I must assume IF this plot took place that the motive is financial.
How does Kyron's disappareance factor in? If the motive for that was financial, then it would be interesting to know if there is life insurance on little Kyron. Even so, this theory feels wrong because there must be a proof of death for a life insurance payout, or a long seven year wait to declare him dead.
I keep trying to find a theory to fit the circumstance and nothing is adding up. It just isn't.
ITA - but maybe NOT life insurance - but I know a good, hefty, meaty negligence lawsuit against a public school district could land millions! IMO and all..............
just sayin'......................
tlcya
07-06-2010, 10:19 AM
ITA - but maybe NOT life insurance - but I know a good, hefty, meaty negligence lawsuit against a public school district could land millions! IMO and all..............
just sayin'......................
True, I hadn't considered that angle and you make a very good point. Again, that takes me back to making darn sure someone saw me leave that building and get in my vehicle/drive off without Kyron though, KWIM? On a busy day with so many people in and out of the building, how hard is it to time your exit to coincide with another's? Make some small talk as you exit the building together heading towards were the vehicles are parked.
Not being argumentative and I appreciate your thoughts, just trying to make all the pieces fit for myself.
SusieMom
07-06-2010, 10:20 AM
I am in an unhappy marriage, I suspect my husband is having an affair, so I hire a landscaper and approach him about murdering my husband. If you are in an unhappy marriage and want ou tthe easist way is divorce, not murder. I must assume IF this plot took place that the motive is financial.
.
Hasn't TH been divorced before? More than once even, IIRC.. I have an older sister who has been divorced 4 times. She is the Queen of "divorce strategy"... if any of her friends are heading for divorce court she's the one they go to.. she knows how to work the system, use the lawyers, to get the absolute best outcome. If her current husband were to cheat or otherwise behave badly enough for her to throw in the towel (which apparently doesn't actually take all that much) he'd be toast. Why, if this is the possible motive, would she not feel the same? She's survived it before..... and esp if he's engaged in adultery, she would have come out pretty sweetly. She's been a devoted SAHM to his two children (one not even her own) while he was out earning 100k a year... Why on earth would you decide... nah.. I think I'll take my chances hiring the yardman to kill him? I know people do it, but there is just no logical way to look at it......
Astrella613
07-06-2010, 10:21 AM
I think she would have had to have an accomplice. She leaves, he grabs Kyron in a bathroom, hallway whatever and he could have removed him in a container of some sort, lugage maybe. Think maybe the plan turned around on her and this person has taken off with Kyron.
BrendaStar
07-06-2010, 10:22 AM
If nobody saw TH leave the school, then reasoning goes that nobody saw TH leave the school with little Kyron, if that indeed is what happened. She sure came early enough to take his picture and then leave with him. I imagine at 8:15 in the morning there wasn't a crowd of people around, just the right people to see you and know you were there that morning.
tlcya
07-06-2010, 10:34 AM
OT but not too far . . .
I am not up on the 911 call in May pertaing to the landscaper? I find it odd that not only did this newfound landscaper/witness NOT come forward back when he was approached in a murder for hire plot but that he did not come forward to report this incident even as the entire country was following the disappearance of little Kyron. Who IS this dude?
Wondering if there is a lot more to this story than we have so far. Wondering if there is some sort of bad blood between Terri and this landscaper and if so, what caused it and how may it relate to the events around Kyron's morning at school.
Supposing Terri was having an affair and that it was with said landscaper? Supposing offing Kain came up during pillow talk? Supposing the affair ended badly and threats were made? sigh, Okay, I have officially sickened my own d*mn self with all the supposing.
Sorry for digressing, back ON topic. Wonder if anyone would notice a landscaper around the school. Wonder if he has kids and if so, where they attend school. NOT encouraging anyone to try sleuthing these matters as we do not even have the man's name, just doing a lot of wondering.
BeanE
07-06-2010, 10:58 AM
Leaving the school in any manner in which Kyron could be seen to be associated with Terri leaving, would place Terri at great risk of being caught, because of the extra people coming and going at the school that day. Even on a normal day, all it would have taken to be caught is just one person who happens to look out the window at just the right moment to see Kyron and Terri or Terri's vehicle associated with leaving together.
I do not believe that, if Terri planned this, she would have taken the risk. And I do believe that if Terri did this, it was definitely planned.
Based on the information we have right now, nobody saw Kyron leave the school. One child may have seen Terri leave the school, but it could have been that the child simply saw Terri walking in the direction of an exit, did not actually see her leave, but with a child's thinking, assumed she left at that time.
These things tell me that because of Terri's very noticeable long red hair, she left the school in disguise. It would be easy enough to slip into a restroom, tuck hair into a cap or wig, pull on another shirt or jacket, and switch shoes - perhaps from a more noticeable and feminine bright white, to a mundane, less-noticeable, and more masculine black or brown. Jeans could be left on since they are unisex.
A man leaving the school, hopping into a commonly seen white truck, and driving off, would be unlikely to stick in anyone's mind.
Two things would increase risk of being noticeable here, that need to be considered. Whereas there are rampant rumors that the baby was with a babysitter that day, I've seen nothing to confirm it. Terri may well have had the baby with her at the school. So she would have to get the baby out of the school as well.
Terri may have deliberately taken the baby to school that morning. Entering and being seen in the building as a woman, with long red hair, carrying a baby, would tend more to stick in people's minds. That is what people would be concentrating on, thinking about seeing Terri leave the school, or remaining in the school for a significant time after she said she left.
So, suppose while in the restroom (or a little-used basement room), before changing to a disguise as a man, Terri slips the baby something to make her groggy and quiet or sleep. Terri switches to her man disguise, the baby is now groggy, Terri puts the baby into a container of some sort, and a man walking across a parking lot and sliding a tote into the truck would likely not stick in anyone's mind. It's a common sight.
That same man returning into the school would also not be anything sticking out enough to stay in someone's memory. And likely any memory of that has faded, as people have been told over and over to concentrate on having seen Terri, a woman, with her very long and noticeable red hair.
Now we have Terri back in the school as a unnoticeable man. It's important to keep in mind that nobody saw Kyron leave the school. It's also important to keep in mind that if it was Terri who was the perp, that she had no reason for Kyron to leave the school alive. And why take that risk? If the perp was Terri, and this was premeditated, it makes much more sense for Terri to have harmed Kyron in the school. Perhaps in a basement. Then remove Kyron's body, as a man, in a wheeled container for the quickest and easiest exit possible.
A further benefit of this scenario for Terri, would be if someone did indeed see an unknown man leaving the school wheeling a container. It points the finger towards a stranger/SO perp.
Now where I got a bit stuck on this, is Terri, as a man, putting the container into the truck. Everything works up to this point, but a man putting, e.g., a large wheeled container into a truck may be noticeable, and even if the man can't be identified, the truck can. By license plate.
I quickly took care of the risk here though. Prior to arriving at the school that morning, all Terri had to do was pull over to a little-traveled out of the way place, and tell Kyron she had to check on something outside the truck - perhaps that she heard a noise or thought a tire might be going flat. At that point, she could quickly and easily smear something on the license plates to obscure part or all of the license #.
During the ride to school she could also easily remove other identifying items from the truck, such as if there was ordinarily something hanging from the rear view mirror. She could remove that, or even replace it with something else.
One other thing I haven't mentioned. :) The questionnaire. It made little sense to me that LE asked only one simple Yes or No question about seeing Terri (or the truck) at the school. No questions about where seen or when seen or what she was doing. No questions about where the truck was seen, if it was moving, in what direction, if it was parked where it was parked. That made no sense. Until I came up with this theory, and went back to the questionnaire, and I noticed that there was a whole LOT of room given to write in info about a suspicious person or vehicle seen at the school. That made more sense to me. Take a look at the questionnaire and see what you think:
http://www.flashalertnewswire.net/images/news/2010-06/1276/36184/061410.SchoolQuestionnaireadobe.hm.pdf
cluciano63
07-06-2010, 11:11 AM
Well, maybe they sorted the questionnaires and only looked further at the ones who had checked "yes" to the question, had they seen Terri that day. That would cut in half or less the number they had to further review/interview again. And also maybe they did not want to have a whole bunch of questions on there about Terri to try to make it less obvious that it was her they are/were after.
RandomThoughts
07-06-2010, 11:28 AM
Well, he's missing, so someone was able to get him to leave without anyone noticing.
If anything, only someone who could blend in well, and only someone who had the power to manipulate Kyron's teacher into thinking he was leaving for the day, could get away with this because they never called home or reported him absent.
BBM
I don't find this part odd because my kid's schools don't call if one of them isn't there that day. They also don't call to make sure that I sent in a note that my oldest will be picked up during the day for an appointment. They don't even have me go inside to sign her out or in when she is brought back. That is high school, but still dangerous, IMO.
Then this just dawned on me. One day at the last minute I had to be at the middle school at the same time the elementary bus would be dropping youngest off. I called the school to have youngest kept there to wait for me. I got there and there wasn't anyone outside, in the office inside or in the hallway. Son saw me at the door, I didn't even have to go all the way in and he came right out to me. The school had no idea that it was me that had actually picked him up, and there was no call to me to find out if I had picked him up.
Which gives me another wild possibility. TH could be telling part of the truth. She waved to him, but did she wave good bye or wave for him to come to her? She might have checked to see if anyone was around, and when she saw no one was she waved for him to come to her.
tlcya
07-06-2010, 11:37 AM
BBM
I don't find this part odd because my kid's schools don't call if one of them isn't there that day. They also don't call to make sure that I sent in a note that my oldest will be picked up during the day for an appointment. They don't even have me go inside to sign her out or in when she is brought back. That is high school, but still dangerous, IMO.
Then this just dawned on me. One day at the last minute I had to be at the middle school at the same time the elementary bus would be dropping youngest off. I called the school to have youngest kept there to wait for me. I got there and there wasn't anyone outside, in the office inside or in the hallway. Son saw me at the door, I didn't even have to go all the way in and he came right out to me. The school had no idea that it was me that had actually picked him up, and there was no call to me to find out if I had picked him up.
Which gives me another wild possibility. TH could be telling part of the truth. She waved to him, but did she wave good bye or wave for him to come to her? She might have checked to see if anyone was around, and when she saw no one was she waved for him to come to her.
A few months back I got a very startling call from my childrens elementary school. I was at work and the school called to inquire where my daughter was. I had taken her and her brother to school that morning, pulled up to the doors, where teachers are waiting with walkies. I watched them both enter the building and then I drove off.
Ovbiously this phone call from the school set me in a panic. "Uh, she better be there at school because that is where I left her" Then the staffer who had called started backpedaling claiming maybe there is some mistake and that she would check it out and get back to me. She then hung up.
You can imagine the inner freak out that was going on in my head as I tried to remain calm while awaiting that callback. I waited maybe five minutes and couldn't stand it anymore then called the school myself. I talked to threee diferent people to confirm that my daughter was indeed there in the building. I was so unsettled by the whole thing I almost left work and went physically over there to see for myself.
Kimster
07-06-2010, 11:53 AM
ITA - but maybe NOT life insurance - but I know a good, hefty, meaty negligence lawsuit against a public school district could land millions! IMO and all..............
just sayin'......................
Interesting theory!
DocBrainerd
07-06-2010, 11:55 AM
True, I hadn't considered that angle and you make a very good point. Again, that takes me back to making darn sure someone saw me leave that building and get in my vehicle/drive off without Kyron though, KWIM? On a busy day with so many people in and out of the building, how hard is it to time your exit to coincide with another's? Make some small talk as you exit the building together heading towards were the vehicles are parked.
Not being argumentative and I appreciate your thoughts, just trying to make all the pieces fit for myself.
I'm thinking Terri focused her effort on making it appear to those within the school (teachers, students, other parents, etc.) that she was leaving without Kyron, but her exit with him in the truck was designed to jibe with the doctor's appt scenerio. She probably instructed Kyron to meet her outside so she could take him to his doctor's appt. If Terri suspects that Kyron is observed re-uniting with her at the truck his 'dissappearance' doesn't happen and the plan is put on hold - she can drive Kyron around the block and fake a call to the Dr.'s office: "Oh the appointment has to be cancelled? Oh yes, that's alright...Hey Kyron whaddaya say we go get a quick bite to eat" - then drop him back off at school.
If she's successful at getting Kyron (still alive and under the impression he's going to the doctor's) out of the school, she then can carry out her plan to make it appear he's dissappeared from school.
Charlie09
07-06-2010, 12:01 PM
Several WebSleuths posters have said that they would notice which parents and children were at the school for such a function and I don't doubt them. Some people remember people, some don't. But I don't see anyone who has posted that they could nail down within a matter of five minutes the time they saw a parent or child.
True, I would know what part of the program or where I was, but no idea of the exact time.
AlexisFresca
07-06-2010, 12:27 PM
BeanE
Leaving the school in any manner in which Kyron could be seen to be associated with Terri leaving, would place Terri at great risk of being caught, because of the extra people coming and going at the school that day. Even on a normal day, all it would have taken to be caught is just one person who happens to look out the window at just the right moment to see Kyron and Terri or Terri's vehicle associated with leaving together.
I do not believe that, if Terri planned this, she would have taken the risk. And I do believe that if Terri did this, it was definitely planned.
Based on the information we have right now, nobody saw Kyron leave the school. One child may have seen Terri leave the school, but it could have been that the child simply saw Terri walking in the direction of an exit, did not actually see her leave, but with a child's thinking, assumed she left at that time.
These things tell me that because of Terri's very noticeable long red hair, she left the school in disguise. It would be easy enough to slip into a restroom, tuck hair into a cap or wig, pull on another shirt or jacket, and switch shoes - perhaps from a more noticeable and feminine bright white, to a mundane, less-noticeable, and more masculine black or brown. Jeans could be left on since they are unisex.
BBM
I'm just thinking out loud here; her hair is pretty thick, in addition to being long. Where would she have had the cap, wig, shirt/jacket and change of shoes? If these items were planted in a specific area beforehand, imo, that would have been ahuge risk someone else coming across it. We were given the impression she volunteered at the school; I guess depending on how often would determine how well she knew about active and inactive areas in the school.
A man leaving the school, hopping into a commonly seen white truck, and driving off, would be unlikely to stick in anyone's mind.
Two things would increase risk of being noticeable here, that need to be considered. Whereas there are rampant rumors that the baby was with a babysitter that day, I've seen nothing to confirm it. Terri may well have had the baby with her at the school. So she would have to get the baby out of the school as well.
Terri may have deliberately taken the baby to school that morning. Entering and being seen in the building as a woman, with long red hair, carrying a baby, would tend more to stick in people's minds. That is what people would be concentrating on, thinking about seeing Terri leave the school, or remaining in the school for a significant time after she said she left.
So, suppose while in the restroom (or a little-used basement room), before changing to a disguise as a man, Terri slips the baby something to make her groggy and quiet or sleep. Terri switches to her man disguise, the baby is now groggy, Terri puts the baby into a container of some sort, and a man walking across a parking lot and sliding a tote into the truck would likely not stick in anyone's mind. It's a common sight.
BBM
Would she have used a tote already at the school, risking that there would be one at her disposal when needed? If not, how would she get a tote inside the school, where needed for that day, without being noticed?
That same man returning into the school would also not be anything sticking out enough to stay in someone's memory. And likely any memory of that has faded, as people have been told over and over to concentrate on having seen Terri, a woman, with her very long and noticeable red hair.
BBM
Its hard to say for sure; I would think a small school like that where everyone seems to know everyone, a stranger male, even if not addressed by anyone initially or so on, would have raised a flag later on in the day, along the lines of, '...wait, now that i think about it, there was that one man i saw earlier, who I never saw before ....'
Now we have Terri back in the school as a unnoticeable man. It's important to keep in mind that nobody saw Kyron leave the school. It's also important to keep in mind that if it was Terri who was the perp, that she had no reason for Kyron to leave the school alive. And why take that risk? If the perp was Terri, and this was premeditated, it makes much more sense for Terri to have harmed Kyron in the school. Perhaps in a basement. Then remove Kyron's body, as a man, in a wheeled container for the quickest and easiest exit possible.
BBM
Hmm, thats an awfully big risk, imo. Anyone could have walked in on her in the middle of the crime. Kyron could have had opportunity to scream for help, escape her clutches, kick on a door or something else. A limp body is awkward to handle and a container big enough to accommodate him would stand out more the second time this 'man' toted something to his truck. Wouldn't she have needed a dolly or flatbed dolly to get said container to her car - especially with Kyron being bigger than the baby? Also, it may have been more difficult to hoist that container onto the back of the truck.
A further benefit of this scenario for Terri, would be if someone did indeed see an unknown man leaving the school wheeling a container. It points the finger towards a stranger/SO perp.
Now where I got a bit stuck on this, is Terri, as a man, putting the container into the truck. Everything works up to this point, but a man putting, e.g., a large wheeled container into a truck may be noticeable, and even if the man can't be identified, the truck can. By license plate.
I quickly took care of the risk here though. Prior to arriving at the school that morning, all Terri had to do was pull over to a little-traveled out of the way place, and tell Kyron she had to check on something outside the truck - perhaps that she heard a noise or thought a tire might be going flat. At that point, she could quickly and easily smear something on the license plates to obscure part or all of the license #.
During the ride to school she could also easily remove other identifying items from the truck, such as if there was ordinarily something hanging from the rear view mirror. She could remove that, or even replace it with something else.
One other thing I haven't mentioned. :) The questionnaire. It made little sense to me that LE asked only one simple Yes or No question about seeing Terri (or the truck) at the school. No questions about where seen or when seen or what she was doing. No questions about where the truck was seen, if it was moving, in what direction, if it was parked where it was parked. That made no sense. Until I came up with this theory, and went back to the questionnaire, and I noticed that there was a whole LOT of room given to write in info about a suspicious person or vehicle seen at the school. That made more sense to me. Take a look at the questionnaire and see what you think:
http://www.flashalertnewswire.net/images/news/2010-06/1276/36184/061410.SchoolQuestionnaireadobe.hm.pdf
My other thought is, what happened to said disguise and containers used to carry out the crime? I don't remember reading anything about any disposal containers (garbage bins) being searched during the searches. Of course, that info could have been kept from the public, I realize.
I'm not saying the above scenario isn't impossible, I just wanted to mention what came to my mind when reading it.
pinkpuddytat
07-06-2010, 12:40 PM
............and then leave the school after taking the picture at the science fair, then how in the world did TH figure out a way to get Kyron out of the school and feel secure enough that she wasn't seen? The school didn't call and say he was absent, so for all she knew they did see her leave with him. :waitasec:
My logical mind isn't wrapping around this theory. Help!
I've asked the same question, but it has little to do with who took him. He *was* seen at the school, and *somebody* got him out of there without being seen (unless police were strategically lying when they recently confirmed that the last sighting of Kyron was inside the school building). The challenge was pretty much the same for Terri as for anyone else, especially anyone else that he knew at all, and thus would likely come towards if summoned. A young child departing an elementary school building right around the time classes were *starting* would have been a sight that practically anyone would have noted and remembered, even if at the time they just assumed there must be some good reason for it.
Why would a school-aged child be leaving an elementary school building or parking lot just as school is getting started? If a child has a doctor's or other appointment that would require leaving that early, you wouldn't have him go to school in the first place. And you wouldn't be likely to schedule such an appointment for the day of a special event the child was participating in, unless there was some really urgent medical condition requiring a hard-to-schedule specialist. Only reasons I can think of are 1) sudden illness that arose just after the child arrived, and 2) a new or prospective student being brought to the school for registration only, in advance of actually enrolling. Number 1 would not be consistent with seeing a child who didn't really look to be in any serious discomfort, and Number 2 would not be consistent with it being the last week or so of the school year.
matou
07-06-2010, 12:41 PM
I think TH must have had an accomplice because being seen leaving with Kyron would have been too risky. SHe would have needed to have been seen with Kyron at the school that morning but seen leaving without Kyron that morning. So far no one has claimed to have seen TH leaving alone but it could still be true. I believe that since she allegedly has offered to pay a large amount of money to have her husband killed, that she could offer a large amount of money to have Kyron abducted. I don't think that she could kill little Kyron with her own hands since she did not attempt this with her own husband (from what we know so far). I don't think death was the intention, because if she possibly offered money to others, than Kaine would be dead by now. I think she wanted to scare her husband to get back at him. Maybe money in terms of a lawsuit could be part of it too. If Kyron is still alive, then there is no way that Terri did it directly. He would just tell authorities that his stepmom put him in a box or something, or told him to meet him at some door at the school. Someone else had to have grabbed him and hid him inside of something and left the school.
I think that TH went to the school the day before and scoped the place out again just to make sure it would all work out the way she wanted. She may have brought appointment papers for the teacher and get her confused about some facts that I'm sure we'll find out about later.
Her hubby was home the next morning to see that she was bringing the project to the school. He was home early to see her so there was only a few hours where he did not see her that day.
TH is familiar with the lack of security at the school since it is so safe. SHe knows the little nooks and crannies and doorways. She may also know in advance that the school will not call with any concerns if Kyron is not in class because of her 'appointment' thing or because of their school practices. She may have sent an 'playing dumb' email to the teacher to find out if there is any concern over Kyron not being in class or to give herself an alibi in the guise of asking for a time to pick up Kyron's project.
At the school, she takes photos of Kyron and posts them later. While there, she makes sure to space herself as far away from Kyron as she is saying goodbye. Her last moments have to be far from him so there can be no claim that they left together. She takes one stairwell and he takes another right before she claims to leave the school. Why? Maybe she is giving the signal to the accomplice that she is about to leave and that Kyron is ready to see the secret electric project now or some other scheme to get Kyron alone.
She waves bye from 150 feet away and leaves. Kyron is going to see the electric project. Kyron is supposed to be in a group of 5 or 6 with some parents (do all the teachers know all of the parents?). Teacher notices that Kyron is not in his group and notifies his home teacher. She is not concerned over it since he may be in the bathroom or getting a drink. He does not return to class at all. Home teacher most likely reasons that it must have something to do with this appointment that TH mentioned.
TH is seen by her husband when he returns home at 2:00 p.m. Where was she from 8:45 to just before 2? She is on her laptop and has posted on facebook around 1 p.m. So maybe the time can be narrowed down. An alleged email was perhaps sent to the teacher, but the time this 'occurred' is not known.
3:30 at the bus, there is no Kyron.
All of is my pure speculation. I really believe if she is directly involved, there HAD to have been someone else. JMO
Calliope
07-06-2010, 12:47 PM
If she's responsible for his disappearance I'm sure she needed to do other things and was unable to drive around without him in the truck just to be seen.
IF she did this then there had to be a point where the last thing she wanted to do was be seen. In other words she had to get rid of him, hide evidence, go home and pretend everything was ok; posting pics on facebook etc.
A plan is never perfect.
Did she know Kaine was coming home early that day? If so, did she know what time to expect him home? If (as she believed) he was having an affair with someone from his work, would she even trust him to be honest about his whereabouts and what time he'd arrive home? It doesn't matter whether or not Kaine actually was cheating, what matters is Terri believed this to be true.
Yet he says he arrived home to find her using her laptop. Apparently there would have been nothing amiss to arouse his suspicions, and if we're to believe the reports from last Friday and this past weekend, he wasn't suspicious until told by LE she'd tried to hire someone to kill him.
So Terri would have been on a very tight timeline, and not entirely certain as to when Kaine would arrive home from work. Yet she managed to pull it off and have all her ducks in a row by the time he arrived?
Calliope
07-06-2010, 12:51 PM
All of is my pure speculation. I really believe if she is directly involved, there HAD to have been someone else. JMO
sbm
I agree. If she was involved, she had an accomplice. If she was not involved, then I think it still goes back to her in that she put him at risk through her actions and acquaintances / connections.
Aedrys
07-06-2010, 12:56 PM
I think it was TH, all by herself, either out of a side door, or possibly through the front. This is a woman that was confident that everything was okay and was doing a thumbs up right before her child was taken and a divorce and restraining order was issued against her.
I think she has narcisstic tendencies if she's not a narcissist, and just had the confidence she could make sure Kyron was seen at school, and then make sure she was seen leaving alone and got him out some other way, or they were seen together, but she wasn't worried. If she was known around that school, I doubt people would have even blinked at Kyron leaving with her, or because it was so busy, one little kid fell off the radar - maybe she was counting on that.
She seems to think she has everything covered. An answer for every question, and now a lawyer so she doesn't have to speak. I think she still might be foolishly confident that they can't catch her. She thinks she's thought this out so well, and no one can take her down. As long as they don't find Kyron's body, she'll be okay (sound familiar to anyone?).
The problem is, we're all going on normal thinking. I don't think she thinks normally. I don't think she worries about things in the same way we do. We'd be all paranoid about taking our child out of school and someone seeing us. I just don't think she worried about that. I think she believed she could explain it away later, and certainly her family and friends would vouch for her, and no one would believe she was capable of harming a child.
I think she lives in a fantasy world where she can't do anything wrong and it's everyone else that's wrong. Who knows, maybe she saw in a movie or on tv someone snatching a kid from school and thought she could do that too, how easy would that be for her? Again, this is not normal, everyday thinking the way us at WS or a normal person would think. This is a delusional, narcisstic, possibly sociopathic person who thinks very differently than we do (not proven, but things are adding up to suggest this).
If I've learned anything from the CA case, it's that these people's thinking is vastly different than our own, and trying to put logic into thinking like that is just going to cause more headaches and frustration.
SusieMom
07-06-2010, 12:59 PM
Why would a school-aged child be leaving an elementary school building or parking lot just as school is getting started? If a child has a doctor's or other appointment that would require leaving that early, you wouldn't have him go to school in the first place. And you wouldn't be likely to schedule such an appointment for the day of a special event the child was participating in, unless there was some really urgent medical condition requiring a hard-to-schedule specialist. Only reasons I can think of are 1) sudden illness that arose just after the child arrived, and 2) a new or prospective student being brought to the school for registration only, in advance of actually enrolling. Number 1 would not be consistent with seeing a child who didn't really look to be in any serious discomfort, and Number 2 would not be consistent with it being the last week or so of the school year.
Sort of like number 1 but not exactly.... (I posted this idea before) kid wets his pants... does happen, even to "big boys" especially when any of the following circumstances are present.... 1. normal morning routine not followed 2. fun activity going on that child is loathe to interrupt 3. child is in a location further from a restroom than is typical for that child, meaning he underestimates the time it will take to get there. I know this because I have a 7 1/2 yr old son.... BTDT too many times, I hate to say. I know that when any of those things are true, that I need to insist on a pre-emptive bathroom visit, which is never appreciated.
A kindergarten student would routinely have an extra set of clothes at school. A first grader would if there was a known problem/tendency.... a second grader generally would not. If the child was already under the supervision of a teacher, likely the parents would be called to bring a change of clothes. But if Mom was still there... I think she'd take him straight home and I also think she wouldn't be happy about it. Its very possible, in that case, that somebody would see them leaving and perhaps not notice anything amiss, especially if his pants were dark, because the child would be trying his absolute best to act as if nothing in the world could possibly be wrong.
But the chances of somebody seeing her would be the exact same. And, if anything, her ability to notice if she was seen or not would be considerably less due to her frustration/embarassment.
frenchvixen
07-06-2010, 01:15 PM
She sent him out the side door under his classroom, down the stairs to the soccer field, and out to the access road where she met him with the truck. Steep slope, tall grass, everyone busy looking at exhibits, nobody sees a thing. And if, by some slim chance someone does, she's got an excuse--he forgot something in the truck. Easy peasy.
http://s780.photobucket.com/albums/yy81/gwenabob/Skyline%20School/
I don't think it's hard for a child whose known an adult all his life to just obey her orders. Easy peasy, like she said. It breaks my heart to know that lil Kyron was planning his summer vacation and all the while TH had other plans for him.
QueenD
07-06-2010, 01:24 PM
Has LE actually stated that no one saw Kyron leave the school with Terri?
I believe LE did, wasn't "No Comment"....
I still think SM and only SM is the perp here, not sure how she pulled it off and no one seen her or him leave that we know of but this thought keeps me so bothered, if SM harmed Kayron, I hope to God her face wasn't the last he seen. That thought kills me and rips my heart.
frenchvixen
07-06-2010, 01:25 PM
[QUOTE If I've learned anything from the CA case, it's that these people's thinking is vastly different than our own, and trying to put logic into thinking like that is just going to cause more headaches and frustration.[/QUOTE]
Yep, this TH is picture of KC fifteen years later.. older, more clever, more dangerous, cunning and less sloppy. She had her alibi (was at the fair with KH), an almost perfect plan (many people although mostly children) saw them together and she dropped him off at school. Her downfall will be her cell phone pings. I guess she forgot to toss it. Her pings will reveal her and her research (attempting to hire a hitman). Other than that, she would have gotten away with whatever it is she did with/to Kyron.
kgeaux
07-06-2010, 01:45 PM
I think she would have had to have an accomplice. She leaves, he grabs Kyron in a bathroom, hallway whatever and he could have removed him in a container of some sort, lugage maybe. Think maybe the plan turned around on her and this person has taken off with Kyron.
Don't you think someone dragging luggage out of a school would have been noticed??
True, I would know what part of the program or where I was, but no idea of the exact time.
You might have a much better idea of what time it was if you'd just arrived, were preparing yourself to leave, or if you were in a location (such as a school) where bells rang periodically. Bells are normally programmed to ring at precise times each day.....
My other thought is, what happened to said disguise and containers used to carry out the crime? I don't remember reading anything about any disposal containers (garbage bins) being searched during the searches. Of course, that info could have been kept from the public, I realize.
I'm not saying the above scenario isn't impossible, I just wanted to mention what came to my mind when reading it.
Enjoyed your whole post, but snipped a little just to narrow down which point I am responding to.
We indeed have not read about garbage bins being searched. However, I cannot imagine that they were not. I mean that would be done as a matter of SOP, it's "How to Conduct a Search, Level 101"
evelyn24
07-06-2010, 01:47 PM
Were there that many people at the school in the little bit of time TH was there with Kyron? People coming and going I'm not sure people would have noticed anything unless it was unusual. My guess is she told him to go stand by her truck then she left. Maybe she left it unlocked for him to get into? Maybe she told him to meet her somewhere around the school were it was more isolated?
Either way Kyron was at school for a very short time, the time frame isn't long, and then he was gone. It just so happens it was in the same time frame that TH was at the school, and then gone.
Talk about luck, bad luck, on TH's part if this is a stranger abduction. And what remarkable ninja like moves from a stranger to get Kyron out of the school when he was with TH, and leave around the same time as Kyron's stepmom without anyone noticing INCLUDING TH who was leaving around the same time.
IDK, I just think if your position is it would have been too hard for TH to leave with Kyron without being seen then you have to think it would at least be twice as hard for a stranger, or someone not usually seen taking Kyron with them out of the school doors.
Yet, we know someone did accomplish this task. Now who would have been able to do this with most ease?
Aedrys
07-06-2010, 01:50 PM
[QUOTE If I've learned anything from the CA case, it's that these people's thinking is vastly different than our own, and trying to put logic into thinking like that is just going to cause more headaches and frustration.
Yep, this TH is picture of KC fifteen years later.. older, more clever, more dangerous, cunning and less sloppy. She had her alibi (was at the fair with KH), an almost perfect plan (many people although mostly children) saw them together and she dropped him off at school. Her downfall will be her cell phone pings. I guess she forgot to toss it. Her pings will reveal her and her research (attempting to hire a hitman). Other than that, she would have gotten away with whatever it is she did with/to Kyron.[/QUOTE]
That is exactly what I've been thinking. TH and CA seem very similar in a lot of ways. I can see Casey thinking the same thing, how easy would be it to just take the kid from school and then do away with the kid? It's going to be interesting when we eventually hear about TH's childhood, if she was enabled just like Casey, and so on. I really do agree with you. I think this is what Casey would have been if Caylee hadn't entered the picture when she was so young. It's ironic that in both cases, if these women had stayed off the cellphone and internet, they might have gotten away with it (I know we have yet to see it here, but I have the feeling the cellphone and internet, especially the laptop, is going to be her downfall).
Jetaime
07-06-2010, 01:51 PM
"We talked about maybe going for a special treat and playing the Wii after school".
http://www.kptv.com/news/24151901/detail.html
----
IMO: This would be the perfect thing to tell a child to get him to agree to a 'secret' escape from school. I don't believe he left the building with this person- I do believe there was a plan set in place before they arrived at school, and that plan included a designated *meeting spot*.
MagnoliaMom
07-06-2010, 01:51 PM
ITA - but maybe NOT life insurance - but I know a good, hefty, meaty negligence lawsuit against a public school district could land millions! IMO and all..............
just sayin'......................
This is an interesting theory. Could SM be sure she would get any of that pie though? Seems more likely to me that bio-parents would benefit. While married you don't have to share your pie. A divorce could change things though. Mighty iffy though. He might divorce her before he got pie. Runaway with the pie. Pretty unstable plan for SM.
Wise Old Owl
07-06-2010, 02:28 PM
This is an interesting theory. Could SM be sure she would get any of that pie though? Seems more likely to me that bio-parents would benefit. While married you don't have to share your pie. A divorce could change things though. Mighty iffy though. He might divorce her before he got pie. Runaway with the pie. Pretty unstable plan for SM.
Yep I agree - I just threw that out there because it could have been something TH thought of just in case something went wrong - KWIM? I don't think this was her motive but it would work as a back-up.
nursebeeme
07-06-2010, 02:39 PM
But for one fact. No one saw Kyron leave with anyone. Yet we know he had to because he is gone.
jmo but we do not know this.
At the last friday presser at reporter asked if Kyron was seen leaving the school and LE said, "no comment"
It is just my theory/thoughts but I actually think someone saw him leaving with Terri.
JMHOO
eta: why on earth would LE say no comment to that question? he either was or he wasn't... very fishy imhoo
Prancy
07-06-2010, 02:56 PM
Can someone clear something up for me. I thought I had heard early on that the father was at home that morning with the little girl while TH took Kyron to school. Then today I read on another board that Kaine had said that the last time he saw Kyron was at 7:45 a.m. when he was at the house. He said he fed the cat and then went to work. He then returned home in the afternoon and worked from home the rest of the day before going to the bus stop for Kyron. Which of these is true? Also, if he was at work that morning out of the house, then where was their little girl while TH was at school with Kyron. Thanks.
cindysue
07-06-2010, 03:21 PM
BBM
Which gives me another wild possibility. TH could be telling part of the truth. She waved to him, but did she wave good bye or wave for him to come to her? She might have checked to see if anyone was around, and when she saw no one was she waved for him to come to her.
What time did they say her cell pinged on the island?? She came early , set up her plan to be seen ..maybe she told him they had to go to the doctors that day and she wanted to play a game with him where they each took different staircases to different exits ..his being the basement exit ,,hers the front door and then he is supposed to wait there for her to wave him to the car, that way she leaves to go go out alone, shortly after she looks around and then motions him to come...She was so early her car might have been in that closest spot that is at the end of the walk out what looks like a lower level back door. She looks around then waves to him to come as was planned.This way she is seen leaving alone but still they leave together..
TigerBalm
07-06-2010, 03:44 PM
Can someone clear something up for me. I thought I had heard early on that the father was at home that morning with the little girl while TH took Kyron to school. Then today I read on another board that Kaine had said that the last time he saw Kyron was at 7:45 a.m. when he was at the house. He said he fed the cat and then went to work. He then returned home in the afternoon and worked from home the rest of the day before going to the bus stop for Kyron. Which of these is true? Also, if he was at work that morning out of the house, then where was their little girl while TH was at school with Kyron. Thanks.
No information has been released regarding where Kyron's little sister was that morning.
Q: When is the last time Kaine saw Kyron?
A: KAINE – I last saw him at about 7:45 am. He was coming back to the house after feeding our cat (Bootsie) and I was heading out to the car to head into the office. I walked over to him, told him I was extremely proud of him for the effort he put into his red-eyed tree frog project, and for him to have a great and fun day at the science fair. We talked about maybe going for a special treat and playing the Wii after school, and then I said “I love you”. He said “I love you too, Dad”, at which point we hugged, and then he went into the house as I got into the car and left. While I have not seen him since, that moment in time is still etched in my mind as if it just happened and is a constant reminder of the joy of having him as a son.
Q: Was Kaine working from home the day Kyron went missing? If so, when did Terri get home from the school?
A: KAINE – No, I was in the office that day until about 1:45 and arrived back home a little after 2pm. Terri was already in the house, on her laptop, when I arrived. I kissed K*, grabbed some food, and worked from my home office until about 3:30 at which time I put shoes on K* and we started walking down toward the bus stop.
*Removed minor childs name
http://www.kptv.com/news/24151901/detail.html
oceanblueeyes
07-06-2010, 03:51 PM
jmo but we do not know this.
At the last friday presser at reporter asked if Kyron was seen leaving the school and LE said, "no comment"
It is just my theory/thoughts but I actually think someone saw him leaving with Terri.
JMHOO
eta: why on earth would LE say no comment to that question? he either was or he wasn't... very fishy imhoo
Imo, because whether they are thinking she is guilty of Kyron's disappearance or someone else is they do not want to answer that question affirmatively either way.
I don't think anyone saw Terri and Kyron leaving that day.
LE has said "no comment" on things they have already commented on so I don't put much into the "no comment" on any given day.
IMO
nursebeeme
07-06-2010, 03:56 PM
Imo, because whether they are thinking she is guilty of Kyron's disappearance or someone else is they do not want to answer that question affirmatively either way.
I don't think anyone saw Terri and Kyron leaving that day.
LE has said "no comment" on things they have already commented on so I don't put much into the "no comment" on any given day.
IMO
however, they have "commented" that he was in fact confirmed to have been seen at the school..
was he seen leaving the school? no comment...
Which means someone COULD have seen him leaving the school.. they will not say yes or no.
we just have to agree to disagree opinion/speculation wise
sneezy
07-06-2010, 04:27 PM
just a thought...Say SM tells Kyron that there is a "cool electric" science fair project in a room where he'd have to take the stairs to get to it? she then "leaves" and goes down a different stairwell and comes across the lower floor and meets Kyron where the Electric one was "supposed" to be. She knows he's careful about where he goes because of his vision so this would allow her to hurry and intercept him before he got too far.
This would account for Kyron telling his classmate where he was going, SM's "alibi" of leaving would mesh because she'd have been seen walking away from Kryon...(at least initially)
but meanwhile, if you look at the plans of the school there's several entrances/exits from even the lower level.
His coat and backpack were in the room so if someone saw them leave after that point she could claim that they were getting something from the truck, yet in the hustle and bustle of the day, she was able to sneak him out...
AlexisFresca
07-06-2010, 04:33 PM
just a thought...Say SM tells Kyron that there is a "cool electric" science fair project in a room where he'd have to take the stairs to get to it? she then "leaves" and goes down a different stairwell and comes across the lower floor and meets Kyron where the Electric one was "supposed" to be. She knows he's careful about where he goes because of his vision so this would allow her to hurry and intercept him before he got too far.
This would account for Kyron telling his classmate where he was going, SM's "alibi" of leaving would mesh because she'd have been seen walking away from Kryon...(at least initially)
but meanwhile, if you look at the plans of the school there's several entrances/exits from even the lower level.
His coat and backpack were in the room so if someone saw them leave after that point she could claim that they were getting something from the truck, yet in the hustle and bustle of the day, she was able to sneak him out...
BBM
Looks like I missed something. Is there a link somewhere for the floor plan of the school? Thanks! :)
cypress
07-06-2010, 05:15 PM
I agree that it's difficult to fathom how Kyron was taken out of the school without anyone noticing.
There are two problems I have with Terri creating an elaborate plan to have Kyron meet her somewhere -- first, she would, knowing she was going to abduct and murder him, be banking on him not telling anyone where he was going or with whom, and secondly, Desiree and Kaine admitted Kyron had trouble listening/following directions, and Terri would have, without a doubt, known this as well.
The plan to abscond with him from school was risky enough. If Terri is responsible for Kyron's disappearance, I don't think she'd risk being the last person seen with him, when/if obviously she wanted to be seen at the school with him and leaving on her own; if she did this, then taking him to school was obviously her way of establishing an alibi of sorts and so I don't envision her risking her alibi by being openly seen leaving with Kyron, and secondly, if Kyron had some attention difficulties, then it seems unlikely Terri would make Kyron's participation an integral part of her plan.
This is one reason I'm leaning toward either an accomplice or some other totally whacked out way she did this. I'm leaning more and more against the idea of Kyron walking out of the school, and more and more toward him being incapacitated at the school and moved out of the school in some sort of container. It was science fair day, a lot of people would have been carrying things.
gliving
07-06-2010, 05:24 PM
BBM
Looks like I missed something. Is there a link somewhere for the floor plan of the school? Thanks! :)
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - MAPS related to the Kyron Horman Case.
HTH
mrsjonnob
07-06-2010, 06:05 PM
Why do so many people here think that Kyron was emotionally neglected? I have seen several posts about how poor Kyron was likely so happy to get some much needed/deserved/wanted attention. Why?
Cher352
07-06-2010, 06:15 PM
just a thought...Say SM tells Kyron that there is a "cool electric" science fair project in a room where he'd have to take the stairs to get to it? she then "leaves" and goes down a different stairwell and comes across the lower floor and meets Kyron where the Electric one was "supposed" to be. She knows he's careful about where he goes because of his vision so this would allow her to hurry and intercept him before he got too far.
This would account for Kyron telling his classmate where he was going, SM's "alibi" of leaving would mesh because she'd have been seen walking away from Kryon...(at least initially)
but meanwhile, if you look at the plans of the school there's several entrances/exits from even the lower level.
His coat and backpack were in the room so if someone saw them leave after that point she could claim that they were getting something from the truck, yet in the hustle and bustle of the day, she was able to sneak him out...
I am still waiting to hear if there was in fact an "electric project" that day. If there was not it would tell us that someone was setting Kyron up.
I wish someone that attended that SF would at least tell us that much!
mrsjonnob
07-06-2010, 07:16 PM
Well, with the info we have now, if TH truly did manage to plan to have Kyron meet her at the car or if she removed him from the school in a giant case or duffel after subduing him and nobody saw anything out of the ordinary, she got damn lucky!
Some have made the point that with all the hustle and bustle of the science fair presentations, people would be distracted and not paing attention to people coming and going. That point is well taken. In my experience however, at school functions where there are a lot of parents, I tend to stop and chit chat and notice people more because some parents who I rarely see at school (because they work, have younger kids, etc) are present for the event. I notice more, because I am looking more, if that makes sense.
cj1132
07-06-2010, 08:20 PM
I'm curious on this. If it was TH's intent to be seen in the school, does she wear something noticeable or does she wear something very bland so she wouldn't be noticed in the parking lot? I'm assuming she would have to have another set of clothes along to change into to do whatever she allegedly did to Kyron and then she'd have to get rid of this set because she couldn't risk having any evidence on them. So would she buy a set of clothes just for this so she could dispose of them and wouldn't have to account for them being missing? Just something I was thinking about.
shefner
07-06-2010, 08:42 PM
I'm curious on this. If it was TH's intent to be seen in the school, does she wear something noticeable or does she wear something very bland so she wouldn't be noticed in the parking lot? I'm assuming she would have to have another set of clothes along to change into to do whatever she allegedly did to Kyron and then she'd have to get rid of this set because she couldn't risk having any evidence on them. So would she buy a set of clothes just for this so she could dispose of them and wouldn't have to account for them being missing? Just something I was thinking about.
I had asked the question earlier in the day as to whether TH had on the same clothing that afternoon when Kaine came home from work as she had worn that morning before he left for work? Wondering if the police or FBI have questioned Kaine on this....
DairyGirl
07-06-2010, 08:54 PM
I had asked the question earlier in the day as to whether TH had on the same clothing that afternoon when Kaine came home from work as she had worn that morning before he left for work? Wondering if the police or FBI have questioned Kaine on this....
That is a very good question. If it were TH it seems that the only clue they have is a cell phone pinging at SI. In order to hide him well enough to have kept him hidden this long she would have had to gotten dirty. I just don't see any way around that unless she just tossed him off the bridge, but if she did that he would have turned up by now. I wonder if she didn't run home and put her clothes in the washing machine. They should ask KH if she had the same clothes on and if she did laundry that day.
Haeve
07-06-2010, 09:07 PM
"We talked about maybe going for a special treat and playing the Wii after school".
IMO: This would be the perfect thing to tell a child to get him to agree to a 'secret' escape from school. I don't believe he left the building with this person- I do believe there was a plan set in place before they arrived at school, and that plan included a designated *meeting spot*.
I don't get the connection. It was Kaine who said they talked about maybe getting a treat after school. Are you saying that a) Kaine was in on the plot and/or b) TH used that discussion, which I'm guessing she was in on, as a jumping off point to change the timeline not from "after school" which I think is universally understood to be in the afternoon to "after the science fair", which ended at 10 a.m.?
I don't have trouble with the theory that someone used some enticement to lure Kyron out of the school, I just don't get how the after school treat would be that enticement. (I posited earlier that perhaps TH made up a "CSI game" that she let Kyron think they were playing. :( )
Haeve
07-06-2010, 09:32 PM
Why do so many people here think that Kyron was emotionally neglected? I have seen several posts about how poor Kyron was likely so happy to get some much needed/deserved/wanted attention. Why?
I think this comes from several places. One, people claim that when they looked at TH's Facebook, there were far more photos of TH's daughter than of Kyron. I haven't seen any proof of that. And also that Kyron was left "off to the side" or not included in some photos. I didn't really see that either. Someone said that during the video of the bridge presentation, TH corrected Kyron. I didn't watch it--can anyone confirm? This could mean she is hypercritical of Kyron. People see Kaine as cold, so that might have something to do with it also. And of course people are making a guess about Kyron being emotionally neglected based on what we have seen of TH's personality and actions in relation to his disappearance. Honestly, nowhere in the MSM does it claim (nor would it claim) that Kyron was emotionally neglected, so it's obviously all theory.
However, if we operate from the working theory that TH has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), and from what little I've seen, I say it's a pretty good bet, then I can share my personal experience. My mother has NPD and though I was fed, clothed, housed and kept safe (more or less--from strangers and accidents, anyway), and everything looked more or less fine from the outside (it would depend on how close you looked--she's very good at playing the devoted mother)--I was desperate for her to actually love me, approve of me, and pay attention to me. So yeah, if my mother promised me some special one-on-one time that pertained to a special interest of mine, you can bet I would be jumping for joy and do whatever she said to make that happen. (Now in my case I'd end up committing some minor transgression that would get the privledge taken away again, but then my mother isn't homocidal either.)
Disclaimer: I am not a mental health professional, just a survivor of a nutty mom.
Kathy1964
07-06-2010, 10:41 PM
Kaine left for work before Terri took Kyron to school. Where was [baby K] while Terri was at school? Did she take the little girl with her? I haven't heard this mentioned, hope someone knows.
Susan10
07-06-2010, 10:43 PM
This is the biggest hangup I have had about this case from the very beginning.
While some have said that she picked this day because everyone would be busy with so many people there, I just cant wrap my mind around that. I think back to when my own children when they had science fair exhibits and it was a day of repeated conversations of "well hi there, xxxxx, so nice to see you again." yada, yada, yada etc. Seeing many that I hadn't seen in awhile but knew I was the mother of the children they knew and knew I had volunteered at the school. Many of them coming up and saying "oh aren't you xxxxxxx's, mom?"
Terri knew parents,students, teachers, school staff and rightly or wrongly they thought she was Kyron's bio mother, imo and Kyron had attended this same school since the beginning.
To me someone less noticed or unassuming could have taken Kyron out of there without being detected than the woman with the flaming red hair that so many people knew there. Especially if it didn't register that this person wasnt a family member since Kyron would not with his mother so they could put two and two together.
Maybe she did this, but if so it will remain a mystery how she could have pulled this off with that school being packed with 300 people (many who would have to know her by sight) and no one saw her leave with Kyron.
IMO
It would help TH out a lot if all those people who knew and saw her would speak up. No one seems to be speaking, unless of course, that's one of LE's secrets. She went early to the SF when not too many people were there. U said 300 ppls were there and the place was packed when Kyron disappeared and when TH was there? I haven't heard that before....people were scarce at that time of the morning that day....do you know something diff?
debirlfan
07-06-2010, 10:52 PM
Honestly, I'm not so sure that she killed him, but that said - following the thread of her being seen at the school, and (presumably) not being seen leaving with him:
Try this scenario. TH takes Kyron to school, and makes sure she is seen with him. She lures him to an isolated part of the school (perhaps telling him there are more exhibits there?) and kills him. A seven year old is not very big, and doesn't weigh much. She is familiar with the school and their "routines", as she has assisted there. TH bags Kyron's body and stuffs it into the bottom of a large trash can that will be emptied later in the day by the janitor. (someone in the 'locals' thread thought the trash was picked up Fridays - has that been confirmed?) She simply walks away, probably making sure people see her leaving alone.
gwenabob
07-06-2010, 11:04 PM
Honestly, I'm not so sure that she killed him, but that said - following the thread of her being seen at the school, and (presumably) not being seen leaving with him:
Try this scenario. TH takes Kyron to school, and makes sure she is seen with him. She lures him to an isolated part of the school (perhaps telling him there are more exhibits there?) and kills him. A seven year old is not very big, and doesn't weigh much. She is familiar with the school and their "routines", as she has assisted there. TH bags Kyron's body and stuffs it into the bottom of a large trash can that will be emptied later in the day by the janitor. (someone in the 'locals' thread thought the trash was picked up Fridays - has that been confirmed?) She simply walks away, probably making sure people see her leaving alone.
Maybe, but 50 lbs in a trash can would be very unusual. The custodian would definitely check it out. Also, all the plastic can liners in PPS are clear plastic.
carole
07-06-2010, 11:20 PM
Kaine left for work before Terri took Kyron to school. Where was baby K while Terri was at school? Did she take the little girl with her? I haven't heard this mentioned, hope someone knows.
There's been no indication of where the baby was that morning.
debirlfan
07-07-2010, 01:29 AM
Maybe, but 50 lbs in a trash can would be very unusual. The custodian would definitely check it out. Also, all the plastic can liners in PPS are clear plastic.
Would it be, if it was - say cafeteria waste? (Maybe they throw out less stuff than they did when I was in school.) And with the science fair, there might be all sorts of bags/boxes/packing materials being tossed.
For that matter - it wouldn't surprise me if some projects were wheeled in with dollies. If she had an accomplice.... For that matter, if indeed she left alone, there's the question of whether she was carrying/pushing anything when she left.
debirlfan
07-07-2010, 01:33 AM
Let me ask a related question.
When she contacted the school about when to pick up the exhibit - could that have been done hoping that someone would notice that Kyron was missing and ask about it? Everyone seems to assume she emailed them to make sure they didn't suspect anything was wrong - maybe she had the opposite intention.
carole
07-07-2010, 01:50 AM
Let me ask a related question.
When she contacted the school about when to pick up the exhibit - could that have been done hoping that someone would notice that Kyron was missing and ask about it? Everyone seems to assume she emailed them to make sure they didn't suspect anything was wrong - maybe she had the opposite intention.
I think it's still a rumor that she emailed the teacher.
butterfly1978
07-07-2010, 02:17 AM
I think she told him she was going to take him to see an electric exhibit, to run to the restroom real quick and she would pull the truck around to the side door , to come out when hes done. She could watch and see if anyone sees her or him he runs out jumps in the truck and they are gone.
captivagrl
07-07-2010, 02:31 AM
If there was a plan, wouldn't TH assume someone would notice he was missing long before meeting the bus? I'd imagine she would be waiting for a call. Or, maybe she hoped KH would get the call? Really want to know what her demeanor was like that day and the previous days.
DairyGirl
07-07-2010, 02:47 AM
If there was a plan, wouldn't TH assume someone would notice he was missing long before meeting the bus? I'd imagine she would be waiting for a call. Or, maybe she hoped KH would get the call? Really want to know what her demeanor was like that day and the previous days.
Terri worked at the school. She knew they never called if a child was absent. And, if like I think, she said something about an appointment, they never even questioned why he wasn't there after the science fair.
captivagrl
07-07-2010, 03:10 AM
Terri worked at the school. She knew they never called if a child was absent. And, if like I think, she said something about an appointment, they never even questioned why he wasn't there after the science fair.
I thought MSM reported that his jacket and backpack were hanging in the classroom. She may have known she had a few hours, but til the bus came? That's what I'm wondering...
DairyGirl
07-07-2010, 03:18 AM
I thought MSM reported that his jacket and backpack were hanging in the classroom. She may have known she had a few hours, but til the bus came? That's what I'm wondering...
LE had no comment about his backpack. If she did anything she had plenty of time. From about 9:00 am till about 2:00 pm when KH came home. A lot could be done in 4 or 5 hours.
GrainneDhu
07-07-2010, 04:06 AM
Leaving the school in any manner in which Kyron could be seen to be associated with Terri leaving, would place Terri at great risk of being caught, because of the extra people coming and going at the school that day. Even on a normal day, all it would have taken to be caught is just one person who happens to look out the window at just the right moment to see Kyron and Terri or Terri's vehicle associated with leaving together.
SBM
It could be. However...
The school is surrounded by a lot of mature trees. Very pretty setting. Judging from the photos, most of the windows would be at least partially obscured.
Additionally, there was plenty to focus on inside the school that day. It wasn't an ordinary day with a possibility of bored kids staring out the windows. There was lots of movement inside the school, lots of exhibits to see, etc.
A man leaving the school, hopping into a commonly seen white truck, and driving off, would be unlikely to stick in anyone's mind.
I agree with this.
So, suppose while in the restroom (or a little-used basement room), before changing to a disguise as a man, Terri slips the baby something to make her groggy and quiet or sleep. Terri switches to her man disguise, the baby is now groggy, Terri puts the baby into a container of some sort, and a man walking across a parking lot and sliding a tote into the truck would likely not stick in anyone's mind. It's a common sight.
That same man returning into the school would also not be anything sticking out enough to stay in someone's memory.
I don't think this is likely.
For one thing, adult men and women walk differently due to differences in pelvic structure. It takes a lot of practise for a man to do a good impression of walking like a woman and most men who can do so use the advantage of high heels to neutralise the structural differences. It takes even more practise for a woman to walk like a man and she obviously can't use high heels to help!
I think a man who walked like a woman would stand out in a school setting even more than a woman with long, flaming red hair due to the sheer incongruity of looking like a man but walking like a woman.
Plus, I'm not sure how to say this decorously but...
Um. Er.
Well, just to be blatant, TMH has a fairly large bosom. And while she appears to have put on some weight since her bodybuilding contest days, she's not fat enough in the face or belly to look realistic sporting a massive pair of moobs if disguised as a man.
Again, I think if she had gone into the school with that rack disguised as a man, she would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
So even if TMH could move like a man from a distance, I doubt she could pass as a man in close quarters.
GrainneDhu
07-07-2010, 04:18 AM
I've asked the same question, but it has little to do with who took him. He *was* seen at the school, and *somebody* got him out of there without being seen (unless police were strategically lying when they recently confirmed that the last sighting of Kyron was inside the school building). The challenge was pretty much the same for Terri as for anyone else, especially anyone else that he knew at all, and thus would likely come towards if summoned. A young child departing an elementary school building right around the time classes were *starting* would have been a sight that practically anyone would have noted and remembered, even if at the time they just assumed there must be some good reason for it.
Why would a school-aged child be leaving an elementary school building or parking lot just as school is getting started? If a child has a doctor's or other appointment that would require leaving that early, you wouldn't have him go to school in the first place. And you wouldn't be likely to schedule such an appointment for the day of a special event the child was participating in, unless there was some really urgent medical condition requiring a hard-to-schedule specialist. Only reasons I can think of are 1) sudden illness that arose just after the child arrived, and 2) a new or prospective student being brought to the school for registration only, in advance of actually enrolling. Number 1 would not be consistent with seeing a child who didn't really look to be in any serious discomfort, and Number 2 would not be consistent with it being the last week or so of the school year.
BBM
Would a child walking towards the parking lot with an adult seem noteworthy if it happened at, say, 8:20 am? The science fair was going on, classes weren't starting for another 25 minutes.
I know I would tend to think that the kid had forgotten something in the parent's vehicle and they were going out to retrieve it.
GrainneDhu
07-07-2010, 04:28 AM
I think it was TH, all by herself, either out of a side door, or possibly through the front. This is a woman that was confident that everything was okay and was doing a thumbs up right before her child was taken and a divorce and restraining order was issued against her.
I think she has narcisstic tendencies if she's not a narcissist, and just had the confidence she could make sure Kyron was seen at school, and then make sure she was seen leaving alone and got him out some other way, or they were seen together, but she wasn't worried. If she was known around that school, I doubt people would have even blinked at Kyron leaving with her, or because it was so busy, one little kid fell off the radar - maybe she was counting on that.
She seems to think she has everything covered. An answer for every question, and now a lawyer so she doesn't have to speak. I think she still might be foolishly confident that they can't catch her. She thinks she's thought this out so well, and no one can take her down. As long as they don't find Kyron's body, she'll be okay (sound familiar to anyone?).
The problem is, we're all going on normal thinking. I don't think she thinks normally. I don't think she worries about things in the same way we do. We'd be all paranoid about taking our child out of school and someone seeing us. I just don't think she worried about that. I think she believed she could explain it away later, and certainly her family and friends would vouch for her, and no one would believe she was capable of harming a child.
I think she lives in a fantasy world where she can't do anything wrong and it's everyone else that's wrong. Who knows, maybe she saw in a movie or on tv someone snatching a kid from school and thought she could do that too, how easy would that be for her? Again, this is not normal, everyday thinking the way us at WS or a normal person would think. This is a delusional, narcisstic, possibly sociopathic person who thinks very differently than we do (not proven, but things are adding up to suggest this).
If I've learned anything from the CA case, it's that these people's thinking is vastly different than our own, and trying to put logic into thinking like that is just going to cause more headaches and frustration.
Strongly agreed.
This is precisely why I think looking for motive as part of an investigation is largely useless. Find the perpetrator first and the motive will be found.
What normal person could possibly think "gee, I want to find out what it is like to kill a human being, so I'll kill that kid from down the road"? And yet, that's what Alyssa Bustamente gave as her motive for the premeditated killing of Elizabeth Olten.
GrainneDhu
07-07-2010, 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie09
True, I would know what part of the program or where I was, but no idea of the exact time.
You might have a much better idea of what time it was if you'd just arrived, were preparing yourself to leave, or if you were in a location (such as a school) where bells rang periodically. Bells are normally programmed to ring at precise times each day.....
Charlie09's comment was in response to mine.
I think that IF TMH did this, she left the school with Kyron no later than 8:20 am. That is fifteen minutes before the first bell rang at that school, so not useful as a time referent.
And I believe that she probably said that she had entered the school with Kyron, then they had to go back to the truck, then they went back and she took the famous photo. Instead of what might be the truth: she took the photo, then left the school with Kyron.
The time discrepancy would then be only about 5-10 minutes. No bells ringing. Lots of commotion, all the potential witnesses moving around to various places within the school within the time frame.
Yes, it's pretty bold. But I think that whoever did this is a pretty bold person. Clearly not someone unwilling to take a few risks.
GrainneDhu
07-07-2010, 05:39 AM
I thought MSM reported that his jacket and backpack were hanging in the classroom. She may have known she had a few hours, but til the bus came? That's what I'm wondering...
IF it was TMH, then every minute that went by until Kyron was discovered missing, the better. She may have planned on only having an hour and actually getting 6-7 hours was a huge bonus.
Beatrice
07-07-2010, 12:14 PM
Is there any truth the supposed dr's appointment?
That Friday?
Kyron's symptoms?
Note to teacher?
cypress
07-07-2010, 12:41 PM
I'm not totally sold on Terri having an accomplice or, honestly, that she did this, but I do believe if she did this, she went to the school to establish her alibi. Otherwise, she could have said a car drove up and snatched Kyron out of the yard, he wandered off (I know bio parents say he was shy, but he was also a little boy who, apparently, had trouble listening/following directions). Kids being snatched out of a yard is far more common than kids being snatched out of a school. Heck, even kids snatched out of their homes is more common than a kid snatched out of a school.
I can't wrap my mind around why she would go to the school to establish an alibi -- be seen with Kyron, speak to a few people, take his picture, etc., and then risk it all being seen leaving with him. If she did this, the whole point of going to school that day was her alibi. There's no way she risks it. I've almost convinced myself she either had help or she didn't do it.
She may have been familiar with the school, entrances, exits, etc., but such a busy day would also work to her disadvantage -- yes, it's busier, but the school is also more occupied, making it harder for her to slip away unnoticed. If you argue that she knew the school so well because of her time there, then the school and people inside it also knew her well. She was a familiar face. She has flaming red hair. She's not going to go unnoticed. While people were moving in and out of the school or looking for parking places, they would have seen her shuffling Kyron into the truck. And I come back to the fact that if she did this, she went there to establish her alibi and she wouldn't turn around five minutes later and potentially destroy it. There are too many risks of her being seen, perhaps more so because the school is filled with people and she wouldn't have as much freedom to move around unnoticed.
kgeaux
07-07-2010, 12:51 PM
Would it be, if it was - say cafeteria waste? (Maybe they throw out less stuff than they did when I was in school.) And with the science fair, there might be all sorts of bags/boxes/packing materials being tossed.
For that matter - it wouldn't surprise me if some projects were wheeled in with dollies. If she had an accomplice.... For that matter, if indeed she left alone, there's the question of whether she was carrying/pushing anything when she left.
I keep seeing people posting theories which involve Kyron being disposed of in the garbage.
Not pointing at you, debrilfan, but I am very curious to learn why people are assuming that LE did not search disposal bins.
I just find it quite disturbing, because if the law enforcement investigators are truly so "Key Stone" that they would ignore basic procedures when searching for a missing child, then there is truly no hope for Kyron. And if LE is "not" so stupid as to ignore searching waste bins, then we are spinning a lot of wheels just for the sake of spinning.
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