PDA

View Full Version : Terri's Armchair Psych Profile #1



cluciano63
07-07-2010, 12:07 PM
http://wweek.com/editorial/3635/14243/

Landscape of a Disappearance

Kimster
07-07-2010, 12:09 PM
snipped from above article:

" “If this is true, it gives us a pretty major insight into what kind of person she is and that she is indeed capable of doing something to Kyron,” says Pat Brown, a forensic psychologist in Washington, D.C. “Clearly, anyone who takes out a hit on their husband or wife definitely jumps into the psychopathic category.”

Martin Williams, a forensic psychologist in San Jose, Calif., also says putting a hit on someone would be a strong indicator of psychosis. "

What kind of person is Terri Moulton Horman?

Emma Peel
07-07-2010, 01:51 PM
See:

Attachment Theory
be sure to google responsible websites

Attachment disorder may or may not play a part in this family's psychodynamics.

Wondering if we have a toxic marriage (Terri/Kane) of two people who both have some degree of attachment disorder, (difficulty forming normal, healthy relationships and bonds) and neither aware how it affects their relationships.

http://attachment.adoption.com/
Above is just a site for laypersons to get anyone interested started.

Just throwing it out there as something to consider on this thread topic.

Calliope
07-07-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't put a lot of faith in "psychologists" who diagnose from afar. Especially based upon a story with no proof it actually happened.

(referring to those interviewed by WW)

Charlie09
07-07-2010, 01:58 PM
I don't put a lot of faith in "psychologists" who diagnose from afar. Especially based upon a story with no proof it actually happened.

No charges, no court determinations, just speculation.

human
07-07-2010, 01:59 PM
attachment disorder is something that I know quite a lot about.

People with RAD are not pleasant to be around. I don't think she has RAD.

Being adopted at about 8 months is not good as at 9 months ( generally speaking) infants develop "fear of strangers". Can't look that up right now.

It depends on where she was the first 8 months. During those days, generally speaking they would have a girl live in a home for unwed mothers, and then a foster family would take them until adoption.

This would normally happen at 6 weeks of age.

8 months is unusual. It sounds perhaps that it may have been abuse or neglect.

Or maybe mother died. Who knows.

Wasn't she looking for her father on the adoption site? Not her mother? That struck me as unusual.

Calliope
07-07-2010, 02:01 PM
attachment disorder is something that I know quite a lot about.

People with RAD are not pleasant to be around. I don't think she has RAD.

Being adopted at about 8 months is not good as at 9 months ( generally speaking) infants develop "fear of strangers". Can't look that up right now.

It depends on where she was the first 8 months. During those days, generally speaking they would have a girl live in a home for unwed mothers, and then a foster family would take them until adoption.

This would normally happen at 6 weeks of age.

8 months is unusual. It sounds perhaps that it may have been abuse or neglect.

Or maybe mother died. Who knows.

Wasn't she looking for her father on the adoption site? Not her mother? That struck me as unusual.

Kaine was also adopted.

ella971
07-07-2010, 02:02 PM
snipped from above article:

" “If this is true, it gives us a pretty major insight into what kind of person she is and that she is indeed capable of doing something to Kyron,” says Pat Brown, a forensic psychologist in Washington, D.C. “Clearly, anyone who takes out a hit on their husband or wife definitely jumps into the psychopathic category.”

Martin Williams, a forensic psychologist in San Jose, Calif., also says putting a hit on someone would be a strong indicator of psychosis. "

What kind of person is Terri Moulton Horman?

Kimster, I could tell you what kind of person she is but I would have to go to the basement. I'm not even sure how to find it!

Ms Suzanne
07-07-2010, 02:02 PM
If they do a Psych Analysis on Terri I feel in all fairness they need to do it on everyone concerned.

Calliope
07-07-2010, 02:02 PM
No charges, no court determinations, just speculation.

That's pretty much all we've had from the start.

Emma Peel
07-07-2010, 02:10 PM
attachment disorder is something that I know quite a lot about.

People with RAD are not pleasant to be around. I don't think she has RAD.

Being adopted at about 8 months is not good as at 9 months ( generally speaking) infants develop "fear of strangers". Can't look that up right now.

It depends on where she was the first 8 months. During those days, generally speaking they would have a girl live in a home for unwed mothers, and then a foster family would take them until adoption.

This would normally happen at 6 weeks of age.

8 months is unusual. It sounds perhaps that it may have been abuse or neglect.

Or maybe mother died. Who knows.

Wasn't she looking for her father on the adoption site? Not her mother? That struck me as unusual.

My understanding is there is a continuum of attachment disorder. Many people who have it are quite charming. It's part of NPD sometimes. IMO - actually not really my OWN opinion at all. Just been reading about it, which makes me no expert. :) I know many good WS-ers here have likely dealt with this issue IRL, (fosters, etc.) and would have far more insight than I relative to this case. Just wanted to bring it up for discussion...

cmsg2002
07-07-2010, 02:30 PM
forgive me if I missed it...but I have not seen anything that says TH was adopted?

wondering1
07-07-2010, 02:30 PM
Kaine was also adopted.

But in his case it's not clear afaik whether it was a *true* adoption. Based on what I read about that part of the family's relationships, it seemed to me equally or more likely that he was adopted by his mother's new husband. Totally different experience than being placed for adoption at birth by bio parents imho

Kimster
07-07-2010, 02:43 PM
Back off of Kaine's personal information please.

Find the link to TH's adoption please. :) I'm sure it is out there somewhere.

Emma Peel
07-07-2010, 02:43 PM
Just wanted to point out that adoption does not necessarily lead to attachment disorder, AND attachment disorder, in varying degrees, can happen with anyone - not just adoption or fostering. They say it can happen with preemies. People can have it for a long long time and don't realize it until it shows itself as adult depression/anxiety. Fascinating (albeit theoretical) stuff to chew on. IMO, but, again...only through my reading...

human
07-07-2010, 02:51 PM
Just wanted to point out that adoption does not necessarily lead to attachment disorder, AND attachment disorder, in varying degrees, can happen with anyone - not just adoption or fostering. They say it can happen with preemies. People can have it for a long long time and don't realize it until it shows itself as adult depression/anxiety. Fascinating (albeit theoretical) stuff to chew on. IMO, but, again...only through my reading...

RAD is very severe. Think of the girl in California that they put into a blanket to simulate rebirth. The therapists were tried for murder when the child died. I believe that they were convicted.

I think that the continuum of attachment disorder is very interesting and something that I thought from almost the beginning.

How about "borderline personality disorder" where there is a void that can never be filled. No amount of cars, success, etc fills the void.

Kentjbkent
07-07-2010, 02:52 PM
by his mother's new hubby. That is a bit different, but I wonder what the story is on the bio-father of Kaine.

But as neither POI or suspect, bio grandfather of Kyron (bio father of Kaine) is not to be sleuthed, correct?

human
07-07-2010, 02:53 PM
But as neither POI or suspect, bio grandfather of Kyron (bio father of Kaine) is not to be sleuthed, correct?

yup, saw that after I posted and deleted my comment if you wish to delete yours. Thanks

human
07-07-2010, 02:55 PM
forgive me if I missed it...but I have not seen anything that says TH was adopted?

Mods, can we post the site or not? Where the info is listed?

NG talked about it on her show. But I am referring to the actual info.

KARLY
07-07-2010, 02:59 PM
snipped from above article:

" “If this is true, it gives us a pretty major insight into what kind of person she is and that she is indeed capable of doing something to Kyron,” says Pat Brown, a forensic psychologist in Washington, D.C. “Clearly, anyone who takes out a hit on their husband or wife definitely jumps into the psychopathic category.”

Martin Williams, a forensic psychologist in San Jose, Calif., also says putting a hit on someone would be a strong indicator of psychosis. "

What kind of person is Terri Moulton Horman?

Pat Brown isn't a psychologist:waitasec:

Kimster
07-07-2010, 03:03 PM
Mods, can we post the site or not? Where the info is listed?

NG talked about it on her show. But I am referring to the actual info.

If you don't get a ************ in the post, it should be fine as long as it isn't some random blogger.

mtnone
07-07-2010, 03:42 PM
by his mother's new hubby. That is a bit different, but I wonder what the story is on the bio-father of Kaine.

But as neither POI or suspect, bio grandfather of Kyron (bio father of Kaine) is not to be sleuthed, correct?

Terri is not a POI or suspect either. Why is info for her allowed but not Kaine?

human
07-07-2010, 03:58 PM
there was an adoption search by Terri on Adoption.com. It is no longer there, that I can find.

Haeve
07-07-2010, 04:04 PM
I think it's NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) or something along that continuum. As I've posted ad nauseum, my mother clearly has it. Note that she is not diagnosed. It's tough to diagnose, and an NPD person doesn't think there is anything wrong with them in the first place! Why treat it? I didn't reach this realization about her NPD until last year, when her NPD (among other three-initial acronyms) caused a serious family crisis. I read the book "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers". Bingo.

I have to run, so I can add more later, but I'll give one example of the similarity between TH's behavior and my mother's: TH is asked about the family situation: "Everything's Good!" (paraphrased by me--don't have exact quote handy). Clearly it wasn't. KH and baby were already gone.

I was talking to my mother about my ex-sister-in-law. My mother tends to side with my sibling's and my exes instead of with us. She said, "I feel so sorry for ____. Her mother was so hard on her." (which she was) I said, "You know, you were hard on me too." Quick denial on her part. She snapped, "No I wasn't!" End of discussion. I dropped it because that's all I needed to know. What I can't tell about Mom is does she believe the stories she makes up about things or not? She often has her own reality about events. She is also very very intelligent and very good at blaming others. JMO, YMMV.

Donjeta
07-07-2010, 04:18 PM
Martin Williams, a forensic psychologist in San Jose, Calif., also says putting a hit on someone would be a strong indicator of psychosis.

“If it’s true, then you figure this is someone whose mind is open to using murder as a solution,” Williams says. “One of the things that stops us all from being murderers is not just the consequences, it’s a feeling of empathy for other people. Psychopaths don’t have that.”



Just want to note that psychosis and psychopath are two different things.

MsFacetious
07-07-2010, 05:06 PM
RAD is very severe. Think of the girl in California that they put into a blanket to simulate rebirth. The therapists were tried for murder when the child died. I believe that they were convicted.

I think that the continuum of attachment disorder is very interesting and something that I thought from almost the beginning.

How about "borderline personality disorder" where there is a void that can never be filled. No amount of cars, success, etc fills the void.

My personal opinion from extensive experience with Untreated Borderline's... is that I don't think Terri is Borderline from what I have seen and heard. Elizabeth Johnson, has some traits from what I know of her up until her incarceration. Casey Anthony also has some traits.

Often it is some type of "addiction" that they use to try and fill the void. (Shopping, gambling, self injury, sex, reckless behavior, drugs, alcohol, etc.) But I've seen no evidence of that with Terri aside from one DUI. So bodybuilding would be the only thing I could see being an "addiction."

Untreated Borderline's are very black and white. There is no gray area. If you go on vacation... they feel you are gone forever. If you say you will call them and you don't, they think you hate them.

They feel all emotions stronger than everyone else, but they may not show them. Their love is overpowering, their anger is debilitating, their grief is consuming.

They love you or they hate you. No gray area.

I have not heard anything like that about Terri yet. However, if we start hearing that "One day she loves you and the next she hates you." Then I would consider it.

Generally speaking a Borderline is VERY adaptable and good at "blocking" things out for quite a while. So I don't expect jail, boot camp, a wilderness program or a mental hospital to change them much. I would also not be surprised if they did not bond to their child or could easily adapt without the child. (Elizabeth again.)

Although there are a couple of possible Borderline traits, a couple of things that make me go hmmm.... there is nowhere near enough for me to say I even think she might be Borderline. There are critical things that I just haven't seen yet.

"I Hate You Don't Leave Me" - (good book, but the title alone sums up Borderlines. Imagine for a moment... how it would be to truly feel that way about your spouse.)

I have to agree with Haeve... NPD looks more likely, but I still don't have enough to say I think that's what it is.

human
07-07-2010, 05:24 PM
For borderline, I am going with the diagnosis that was given to a female relative of mine that was adopted.

Maybe they were wrong in the diagnosis. But she seems a lot like TH to me. I have never seen the "I love you and hate you" stuff with my relative, so perhaps the diagnosis is wrong.

seeking truth
07-07-2010, 05:38 PM
Just want to note that psychosis and psychopath are two different things.Thank You, Donjeta, for pointing this out! I was pretty shocked when I read this, yet I have seen "psychosis" being used in papers relating to Psychopaths. I am beginning to wonder if the term is starting to have two meanings.

Just one of many definitions of PSYCHOSIS:

"Psychosis is a symptom or feature of mental illness typically characterized by radical changes in personality, impaired functioning, and a distorted or nonexistent sense of objective reality.
Description
Patients suffering from psychosis have impaired reality testing; that is, they are unable to distinguish personal subjective experience from the reality of the external world. They experience hallucinations and/or delusions that they believe are real, and may behave and communicate in an inappropriate and incoherent fashion. Psychosis may appear as a symptom of a number of mental disorders,..."

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/psychosis

And here is one for PSYCHOPATH: (BBM)

"Not to be confused with Psychosis, Psychopathology, or Autistic Psychopathy.

Psychopathy (pronounced /saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1][2]) is a personality disorder characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy combined with strongly amoral conduct, masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal. Neither psychopathy, nor the similar concept of sociopathy, are nowadays defined in international diagnostic manuals, which instead describe a category of antisocial/dissocial personality disorder. However, researcher Robert Hare, whose Hare Psychopathy Checklist is widely used, describes psychopaths as "intraspecies predators"[3] as does R.I. Simon.[4][verification needed] Elsewhere Hare and others write that psychopaths "use charisma, manipulation, intimidation, sexual intercourse and violence"[5][6][7][verification needed] to control others and to satisfy their own needs. Hare states that: "Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse".[8] He previously stated that: "What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony"[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Trident
07-07-2010, 05:52 PM
Frankly, I don't believe we have enough insight into TH's verified behavior to make any kind of a supposition, the same as DY, TY, or KH. All we have to work with are allegations and a few, short, orchestrated pressers.

In my opinion, it isn't fair or necessary to make uneducated judgments about TH's mental state. Why not wait until LE actually charges her with something?

Tricia
07-07-2010, 05:54 PM
My personal opinion from extensive experience with Untreated Borderline's... is that I don't think Terri is Borderline from what I have seen and heard. Elizabeth Johnson, has some traits from what I know of her up until her incarceration. Casey Anthony also has some traits.

Often it is some type of "addiction" that they use to try and fill the void. (Shopping, gambling, self injury, sex, reckless behavior, drugs, alcohol, etc.) But I've seen no evidence of that with Terri aside from one DUI. So bodybuilding would be the only thing I could see being an "addiction."

Untreated Borderline's are very black and white. There is no gray area. If you go on vacation... they feel you are gone forever. If you say you will call them and you don't, they think you hate them.

They feel all emotions stronger than everyone else, but they may not show them. Their love is overpowering, their anger is debilitating, their grief is consuming.

They love you or they hate you. No gray area.

I have not heard anything like that about Terri yet. However, if we start hearing that "One day she loves you and the next she hates you." Then I would consider it.

Generally speaking a Borderline is VERY adaptable and good at "blocking" things out for quite a while. So I don't expect jail, boot camp, a wilderness program or a mental hospital to change them much. I would also not be surprised if they did not bond to their child or could easily adapt without the child. (Elizabeth again.)

Although there are a couple of possible Borderline traits, a couple of things that make me go hmmm.... there is nowhere near enough for me to say I even think she might be Borderline. There are critical things that I just haven't seen yet.

"I Hate You Don't Leave Me" - (good book, but the title alone sums up Borderlines. Imagine for a moment... how it would be to truly feel that way about your spouse.)

I have to agree with Haeve... NPD looks more likely, but I still don't have enough to say I think that's what it is.

I don't know if you are a professional in the field or not but this is one of the best descriptions I have read about Borderlines. Thank you.

sorrell skye
07-07-2010, 05:59 PM
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder-fact-sheet/index.shtml

Good info on BPD @ the above link, based on 2001 research findings, if anyone cares to read up on it.

BPD is more common that bipolar disorder, affects women more often than men, and is responsible for 20% of psychiatric hospitalizations..

human
07-07-2010, 06:06 PM
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder-fact-sheet/index.shtml

Good info on BPD @ the above link, based on 2001 research findings, if anyone cares to read up on it.

BPD is more common that bipolar disorder, affects women more often than men, and is responsible for 20% of psychiatric hospitalizations..

well, the the rejection by Kaine, if in fact he had a GF, would result in hiring a hit man.

First hubby said she cheated.

Could be borderline.

MsFacetious
07-07-2010, 06:06 PM
Symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder

While a person with depression or bipolar disorder typically endures the same mood for weeks, a person with BPD may experience intense bouts of anger, depression, and anxiety that may last only hours, or at most a day.

People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike).

Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all.

Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder-fact-sheet/index.shtml

Again, I am not saying that anybody has any diagnosis. I am speaking from my personal experience and sharing information so that people have it. There is nothing wrong with learning something new and it is important to me that people understand Borderlines a little bit more.

While less well known than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder (manic-depressive illness), BPD is more common, affecting 2 percent of adults, mostly young women.


For borderline, I am going with the diagnosis that was given to a female relative of mine that was adopted.

Maybe they were wrong in the diagnosis. But she seems a lot like TH to me. I have never seen the "I love you and hate you" stuff with my relative, so perhaps the diagnosis is wrong.

Here is the diagnostic criteria if you would like to take a look at it in regards to your relative. Black and white thinking is essentially the basis of a Borderline. If you look at the diagnostic criteria and think about it... everything is one extreme or the other.

Keep in mind that this is all for an untreated Borderline. If your relative has been in therapy and/or on medication they may not even meet the diagnostic criteria anymore. You may not see these things if she is doing really well. :)

Calliope
07-07-2010, 06:17 PM
Just want to note that psychosis and psychopath are two different things.

lol excellent catch

Guess he's not as much of an expert as he seems to think?

Calliope
07-07-2010, 06:22 PM
Frankly, I don't believe we have enough insight into TH's verified behavior to make any kind of a supposition, the same as DY, TY, or KH. All we have to work with are allegations and a few, short, orchestrated pressers.

In my opinion, it isn't fair or necessary to make uneducated judgments about TH's mental state. Why not wait until LE actually charges her with something?

Thank you.

nurseratchett
07-07-2010, 06:24 PM
If they do a Psych Analysis on Terri I feel in all fairness they need to do it on everyone concerned.

Out of curiosity, why everyone else?

No one else appears to be an- as yet- formally "unspecified" suspect, and the other parents have all undergone as much as scrutiny as she initially did. It appears simply that her LE/FBI review turned up far more questionable behaviors than any one elses. As well as her initial LDT.

Solicitation of murder is enough in my mind to require a psych eval.

MsFacetious
07-07-2010, 06:26 PM
I don't know if you are a professional in the field or not but this is one of the best descriptions I have read about Borderlines. Thank you.

Thank you...I almost didn't post it. :blushing:

human
07-07-2010, 06:32 PM
Symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder

While a person with depression or bipolar disorder typically endures the same mood for weeks, a person with BPD may experience intense bouts of anger, depression, and anxiety that may last only hours, or at most a day.

People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike).

Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all.

Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder-fact-sheet/index.shtml

Again, I am not saying that anybody has any diagnosis. I am speaking from my personal experience and sharing information so that people have it. There is nothing wrong with learning something new and it is important to me that people understand Borderlines a little bit more.

While less well known than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder (manic-depressive illness), BPD is more common, affecting 2 percent of adults, mostly young women.



Here is the diagnostic criteria if you would like to take a look at it in regards to your relative. Black and white thinking is essentially the basis of a Borderline. If you look at the diagnostic criteria and think about it... everything is one extreme or the other.

Keep in mind that this is all for an untreated Borderline. If your relative has been in therapy and/or on medication they may not even meet the diagnostic criteria anymore. You may not see these things if she is doing really well. :)

I am not asking about my rellie, but thanks for the info. Really, but on to the topic.

What I mean is, I'm asking about TH here.

Wouldn't asking for a hit man for your hubby if he's cheating fit into that?

If she had affairs, couldn't that fit in?

What if she was enraged with the missing child for some reason?

Is it like an off and on switch? One minute fine, next minute enraged?

Do they hide it? Do they plan?

How about her response that everything was "fine" when her children had been taken from her and LE had been called twice on Saturday with a landscaper screaming for $10,000?

Barry
07-07-2010, 06:52 PM
IMO, there is another rare class of people. Those who are for no apparent reason, evil. They enjoy being evil, calculating and torturous. They can do unspeakable and cruel things to people, and then sleep like a baby. They're out there, and those are the ones that scare me the most.

I'm sure that there are proven psychological issues that could lead someone to harm a child. But in a lot of cases, I think it boils down a fundamental issue of core character and morals.

I guess short way of saying this: There are some people that are just bad.

Donjeta
07-07-2010, 07:00 PM
lol excellent catch

Guess he's not as much of an expert as he seems to think?

Unless it was a mistake by the reporter.

I'm a bit suspicious about professionals who diagnose people on the basis of a few news articles.
While it is often possible to get a pretty good idea about a person from the news it's a bit unethical to say so, IMO, to make professional statements about people you haven't interviewed. Answering general questions about psychopaths etc. should be fine but when it's presented in the context of an article about a specific person it is a very narrow margin and your statements can easily be interpreted as a professional evaluation of that person.

I think they're just guessing, mostly. She hasn't even spoken publicly so there is very little raw material that comes straight from her, mostly it's hearsay.

captivagrl
07-07-2010, 07:35 PM
Since we're making educated guesses, I'll chime in and agree with Borderline Personality. I have an undiagnosed(professionally) close family member with this disorder. It's both horrible and sad. They will never admit to a problem due to the nature of the illness. And, even if they did there's really no effective treatment. The black/ white thinking doesn't allow for human qualities(grey areas). They put up a VERY GOOD front in public, but behind closed doors it's a living nightmare.

Calliope
07-07-2010, 08:04 PM
Unless it was a mistake by the reporter.

I'm a bit suspicious about professionals who diagnose people on the basis of a few news articles.
While it is often possible to get a pretty good idea about a person from the news it's a bit unethical to say so, IMO, to make professional statements about people you haven't interviewed. Answering general questions about psychopaths etc. should be fine but when it's presented in the context of an article about a specific person it is a very narrow margin and your statements can easily be interpreted as a professional evaluation of that person.

I think they're just guessing, mostly. She hasn't even spoken publicly so there is very little raw material that comes straight from her, mostly it's hearsay.

Exactly.

My father worked for the Bureau of Prisons and for the last 10 years or so, out of the Federal Medical Center. From what he told me, before a prisoner could be definitively diagnosed and/or deemed competent, they were observed and evaluated for at least 90 days. No medical professional worth a damn is going to diagnose someone based upon what little we know about Terri, much less without evaluating her in person.

For these "experts" to start spouting their arm-chair diagnoses without so much as a sit-down with Terri, it's ridiculous and inflammatory.

grayjay
07-07-2010, 09:17 PM
Symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder

While a person with depression or bipolar disorder typically endures the same mood for weeks, a person with BPD may experience intense bouts of anger, depression, and anxiety that may last only hours, or at most a day.

People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike).

Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all.

Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder-fact-sheet/index.shtmlSBM

A borderline person can be proudly taking photos of the stepson one minute, and trying to be the best she can be in public, and one thing can be said, and the next minute in private, she's hurting the kid for something he says, especially if it shows he's not an extension of her, is not happy, is rejecting her ideas or efforts?

:twocents:

Beatrice
07-07-2010, 09:37 PM
I agree...The smallest SLIGHT/REJECTION will set off the Borderline Personality. Lashing out at those she loves.

TxLady2
07-07-2010, 09:40 PM
Exactly.

My father worked for the Bureau of Prisons and for the last 10 years or so, out of the Federal Medical Center. From what he told me, before a prisoner could be definitively diagnosed and/or deemed competent, they were observed and evaluated for at least 90 days. No medical professional worth a damn is going to diagnose someone based upon what little we know about Terri, much less without evaluating her in person.

For these "experts" to start spouting their arm-chair diagnoses without so much as a sit-down with Terri, it's ridiculous and inflammatory.

I thanked your post, but it's not enough! I very much agree with you.
I've yet to even hear Terri speak, so I have no idea what she is really like... and I would wager that very few people here do either.
These "experts" are judging her by a few blips on t.v. and what's been written about her... and that is very unprofessional, IMO.

Emeralgem
07-07-2010, 10:13 PM
I haven't heard her speak either but one thing for certain IF she is in anyway responsible for hurting Kyron, she is either (take your pick) sick in the head or evil to the core...JMO

LadyL
07-07-2010, 11:12 PM
attachment disorder is probable IMO

eyes4crime
07-07-2010, 11:58 PM
Pat Brown isn't a psychologist:waitasec:

No she isn't. In order to call oneself a psychologist, the person must be licensed and have a PhD or PsyD with the exception of some school psychologists with a MA., at least that's the case for Illinois. moo

Pat Brown has a masters in criminal justice. Her interest began when she rented a room in her home to a suspected murderer. There is an interesting video somewhere of Pat talking about how she became involved in profiling and how her career developed. moo

angelainwi
07-08-2010, 02:01 AM
My personal opinion from extensive experience with Untreated Borderline's... is that I don't think Terri is Borderline from what I have seen and heard. Elizabeth Johnson, has some traits from what I know of her up until her incarceration. Casey Anthony also has some traits.

Often it is some type of "addiction" that they use to try and fill the void. (Shopping, gambling, self injury, sex, reckless behavior, drugs, alcohol, etc.) But I've seen no evidence of that with Terri aside from one DUI. So bodybuilding would be the only thing I could see being an "addiction."



Forgive me if I am wrong but I do not see those things as addictions to try to fill a void. They are anxiety releasing behaviors, especially in the case of self-injury. Most BPDs especially women have a history of childhood sexual abuse. Drugs and alcohol are used as a way of self-medicating.

I do think it is possible that TH could have had some kind of psychotic break. She seemed to be very perfectionistic and just could not keep up with all that she thought she should do. As she lets things go this would be very emotionally horrifying for her and it is possible that she started drinking heavily as a result to drown her feelings of not being worthy and low self-esteem.

Beatrice
07-08-2010, 03:02 AM
Since we're making educated guesses, I'll chime in and agree with Borderline Personality. I have an undiagnosed(professionally) close family member with this disorder. It's both horrible and sad. They will never admit to a problem due to the nature of the illness. And, even if they did there's really no effective treatment. The black/ white thinking doesn't allow for human qualities(grey areas). They put up a VERY GOOD front in public, but behind closed doors it's a living nightmare.

I also have a family member with this personality disorder. Recovery can only come with acceptance/acknowlegement of this "disease".

In terms of Terri, her void was fillled with her children & their activities.

Do we all remember the science fairs of our past where certain students won first prize even when it was known to all the parent's had done the project 99%?

I bet Terri was enfuriated when HER project did not win.

Renminiscent of days gone by.

DairyGirl
07-08-2010, 03:38 AM
Honestly I never understood all the diagnoses of borderline, psychopathy, narcissistic or sociopathy. All I really know about her is from her Facebook when it was open and a few shots of her on TV. When Kyron first went missing I looked up her Facebook and I had no red flags. A few casual remarks that may not have been the best in timing but nothing terrible. The only things that might send out alarms were the DUI, the seeming inconsistencies about how long she knew DY (which may be honest mistakes), her denial of problems when KH left and the cheating her ex husband suposedly talked about, which may or may not be true. Nothing that screams psychiatric issues really. She may be depressed judging by the physical changes in the last 8 months. Maybe domestic pressures if her husband was cheating but again not confirmed.
If she harmed Kyron I honestly can't figure it out. None of her "friends" or people that knew her have come out and talked about anything other then her being a loving mother. No one (other then KH, DY and TY) has turned against her. I would think if she were displaying signs of mental illness someone would have told the media. They would eat that up.
I have to say I highly doubt the murder for hire thing. Doesn't really make sense and why wouldn't he go to the police at the time? If it were true I agree that probably shows something is wrong with her but I just don't know.
The thing that is scary is IF she did this and there were no warning signs at all, it makes us all feel vulnerable because ANYONE could snap and we'd never see it coming. Our own spouses could be capable of something bad if she did that and no one saw it coming. Until people close to her talk about her behavior I have to believe that this just came out of the blue and no one suspected it could happen. Frightening.

human
07-08-2010, 11:40 AM
did anyone see a Today show where there are soem really harsh things that were said about her ex? I'll see if I can find it?

BetteDavisEyes
07-08-2010, 11:44 AM
I don't feel that I know enough about TMH to even consider an "armchair" diagnosis, but I have plenty of experience with a family member who has schizo-affective disorder and borderline personality disorder. I can tell you that it isn't pretty, and it has been a rough ride for the family for more than 25 years. Thankfully, the psychiatric symptoms can be controlled with an ever-changing cocktail of psychotropic meds, but there is little that can be done about the borderline manifestations.

If you're interested in learning more about this serious personality disorder, I would like to recommend Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder.

ETA: Forgot to name authors Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger.

eyes4crime
07-08-2010, 02:29 PM
I'm sure if exerts of my life were discussed out of context I would fit just about any diagnosis in the DSM :eek:

The only exert of Terri's life that I find suspect is IF the murder for hire plot is true, I might think toward a narcissistic personality.

Also, seems to me that being into body building to the extent she was would require an intense focus on herself. Is that narcissistic? I don't know! By all accounts Kyron and baby girl look well cared for as does her home. Simply not enough information for conjecture. moomhomhho

Haeve
07-08-2010, 03:35 PM
I'm sure if exerts of my life were discussed out of context I would fit just about any diagnosis in the DSM :eek:

The only exert of Terri's life that I find suspect is IF the murder for hire plot is true, I might think toward a narcissistic personality.

Also, seems to me that being into body building to the extent she was would require an intense focus on herself. Is that narcissistic? I don't know! By all accounts Kyron and baby girl look well cared for as does her home. Simply not enough information for conjecture. moomhomhho

Re: the DSM: LOL

I don't know about the bodybuilding. But my mother is narcissistic and having her children look well-cared for was part of her own image of herself as a perfect mother. She sewed us adorable outfits, took lots of photos, bought us toys and treats, kept us clean, fed, etc., etc. She did those things because you are supposed to, and also because despite her self-absorption, she had no reason not to, if that makes sense--she's not a monster, she does have decent values about how to raise children, I know that sounds like a contradiction. Believe me, I'm confused too! But she forgot to read the chapter on unconditional love, emotional support, etc.

I think for my mother, the effort to appear perfect overwhelmed her. She was a single mom. I bet if she could have been a SAHM (a wish she expressed to me--"I'm not a career girl", she said) things would have looked even better.

If you scratch the surface, you would find out that we were raised in complete squalor. A lot of energy was spent presenting the picture of the perfect family. But the pictures don't show Mom's complete inability to see us as separate people, the playing of favorites, the hyper criticism, the scapegoating, the rageaholism, not to mention the filthy living conditions, etc., etc.

She would never admit that the way were raised was at all harmful. My siblings and my problems she blames on others (or in my case, my own "poor character"). I don't know if it's because she truly believes she did nothing wrong, or she knows it was wrong but is unable to face it. First is scary, second is really sad.

Anyway, it looks like TH's kids had it far better than I did, but despite outward appearances, we don't know what sort of emotional climate TH created for her kids. Emotional abuse can be subtle and easily explained away. Again, I'm not a psychologist, just a survivor, I make no claim that conditions in the Horman home were at all like those in mine. JMHO, YMMV.

xin
07-08-2010, 03:41 PM
Re: the DSM: LOL

I don't know about the bodybuilding. But my mother is narcissistic and having her children look well-cared for was part of her own image of herself as a perfect mother. She sewed us adorable outfits, took lots of photos, bought us toys and treats, kept us clean, fed, etc., etc. She did those things because you are supposed to, and also because despite her self-absorption, she had no reason not to, if that makes sense--she's not a monster, she does have decent values about how to raise children, I know that sounds like a contradiction. Believe me, I'm confused too! But she forgot to read the chapter on unconditional love, emotional support, etc.

I think for my mother, the effort to appear perfect overwhelmed her. She was a single mom. I bet if she could have been a SAHM (a wish she expressed to me--"I'm not a career girl", she said) things would have looked even better.

If you scratch the surface, you would find out that we were raised in complete squalor. A lot of energy was spent presenting the picture of the perfect family. But the pictures don't show Mom's complete inability to see us as separate people, the playing of favorites, the hyper criticism, the scapegoating, the rageaholism, not to mention the filthy living conditions, etc., etc.

She would never admit that the way were raised was at all harmful. My siblings and my problems she blames on others (or in my case, my own "poor character"). I don't know if it's because she truly believes she did nothing wrong, or she knows it was wrong but is unable to face it. First is scary, second is really sad.

Anyway, it looks like TH's kids had it far better than I did, but despite outward appearances, we don't know what sort of emotional climate TH created for her kids. Emotional abuse can be subtle and easily explained away. Again, I'm not a psychologist, just a survivor, I make no claim that conditions in the Horman home were at all like those in mine. JMHO, YMMV.


I have a mother like that too. Feel the love coming at ya from me!! We survived. Hard now, she's older and dementia has kicked in and can ONLY comment on herself EVERY subject is about HER. EVERY. More pronounced than ever. WE were raised by wolves dearie!

Haeve
07-08-2010, 04:10 PM
I have a mother like that too. Feel the love coming at ya from me!! We survived. Hard now, she's older and dementia has kicked in and can ONLY comment on herself EVERY subject is about HER. EVERY. More pronounced than ever. WE were raised by wolves dearie!

(((((xin)))))

Yep, I say "raised by wolves" all the time. LOL.

Our moms: "Enough about me, let's talk about me." ;) Your description of your mother sets my teeth on edge. I dread mom getting dementia.

OT: Local public radio station OPB just had a quick report on the RSO. It sounds like OPB, since running Kyron's story on its Think Out Loud program, is covering the story more closely than it was previously, but I wasn't listening for several days. I think OPB is the best MSM outlet in Portland in terms of ethics, balance, staying away from tabloid fodder, etc., so they will be worth watching, IMO.

SleuthyGal
07-09-2010, 07:58 PM
So then all these 'armchair' psychologist-wannabes with no actual training or credentials, who are opining on the inner workings of TMH's mind, based on nothing but their own imaginations and projections, are really just adding a bunch of useless flotsam to the Internetweb?

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 08:32 PM
I'm not a verified poster but it's my opinion that no professional worth their salt would ever diagnose anyone anything without the interviews and other tools. Of course, they may have hunches and make educated guesses and discuss these things if the person is not their patient and sometimes it may be pretty accurate because experience may teach you to recognize certain patterns but it would definitely be unethical to present it as a professional diagnosis.

There's nothing wrong about discussing things in general terms, e.g. psychopaths tend to be like this and narcissists tend to be like that and hiring a hitman might fit as a symptom of these disorders. It is okay as long as it's clear to everyone that they're talking generally. It may even be somewhat interesting occasionally. But it is not always clear to everyone and it's problematic when it's presented in a context of a discussion of a specific named individual in which it can be misinterpreted as a professional evaluation of a person, instead of just a glorified hunch for the sake of conversation.

We do not have enough information about Terri's mental state to make even educated guesses with any accuracy, IMO.
We have never even heard her speak, we have just seen her standing on a stage, and we have heard her family members give somewhat conflicting but not very precise accounts of her behavior.

Kaine said she was diagnosed with PPD and took medications for it and IMO if he's giving us the right information it would be hard and pretty much useless to second guess that professional opinion because the diagnosis was probably made by someone who actually met her.

Armchair analyses often make the mistake of equating one symptom with a diagnosis. He seeks attention - he's a narcissist. She is insensitive of others feelings - she's an Asperger case. She gets mood swings -she's bipolar.

One symptom, one instance of behavior, is rarely enough to diagnose anything in the mental health field and very few symptoms fit only one diagnosis. Most diagnoses require a pattern of findings that are observed for a longer period of time and news reports rarely give enough information about people's medical issues (and they usually shouldn't).

If it's a diagnosis that is needed in a criminal setting eg. to evaluate if a person's disease caused his criminal activity or made him unable to comprehend the consequences it is a much more involved process and even all qualified mental health professionals are not properly equipped to conduct such an evaluation.

just
07-09-2010, 09:24 PM
So then all these 'armchair' psychologist-wannabes with no actual training or credentials, who are opining on the inner workings of TMH's mind, based on nothing but their own imaginations and projections, are really just adding a bunch of useless flotsam to the Internetweb?

WTH SleuthyGal? What about people who are 'solving crimes' based on the media information versus what the LE really has? Are you putting yourself into that category? I'm not trying to be rude, at all, my tone if I were to talk to you would be a jibing friend, but seriously...

Padua, I found your posts very informative and interesting. I also love the astrological posters. I like all the posters, actually! Even the ones that totally disagree with me because it shows a different POV that I usually hadn't thought of! I hope you all continue this because I think it could be very helpful to people to know the signs of mental illness.

BeanE
07-10-2010, 02:29 PM
Video. Includes psychiatrist explaining PPD, and the difference between PPD and PPP.

ABC Good Morning America
Kyron's Stepmother Suspected
Could post partum depression have played a role in the boys disappearance?
05:46 | 07/10/2010

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/kyrons-stepmother-suspected-11132091

Beatrice
07-10-2010, 03:03 PM
Re: the DSM: LOL

I don't know about the bodybuilding. But my mother is narcissistic and having her children look well-cared for was part of her own image of herself as a perfect mother. She sewed us adorable outfits, took lots of photos, bought us toys and treats, kept us clean, fed, etc., etc. She did those things because you are supposed to, and also because despite her self-absorption, she had no reason not to, if that makes sense--she's not a monster, she does have decent values about how to raise children, I know that sounds like a contradiction. Believe me, I'm confused too! But she forgot to read the chapter on unconditional love, emotional support, etc.

I think for my mother, the effort to appear perfect overwhelmed her. She was a single mom. I bet if she could have been a SAHM (a wish she expressed to me--"I'm not a career girl", she said) things would have looked even better.

If you scratch the surface, you would find out that we were raised in complete squalor. A lot of energy was spent presenting the picture of the perfect family. But the pictures don't show Mom's complete inability to see us as separate people, the playing of favorites, the hyper criticism, the scapegoating, the rageaholism, not to mention the filthy living conditions, etc., etc.

She would never admit that the way were raised was at all harmful. My siblings and my problems she blames on others (or in my case, my own "poor character"). I don't know if it's because she truly believes she did nothing wrong, or she knows it was wrong but is unable to face it. First is scary, second is really sad.

Anyway, it looks like TH's kids had it far better than I did, but despite outward appearances, we don't know what sort of emotional climate TH created for her kids. Emotional abuse can be subtle and easily explained away. Again, I'm not a psychologist, just a survivor, I make no claim that conditions in the Horman home were at all like those in mine. JMHO, YMMV.

Yes, as long as we looked "cute" to the outside world...Mom had done a good job. It's taken me many years to clearly see what my mother was truly all about...herself! Thank you for sharing!

eyes4crime
07-10-2010, 04:14 PM
Video. Includes psychiatrist explaining PPD, and the difference between PPD and PPP.

ABC Good Morning America
Kyron's Stepmother Suspected
Could post partum depression have played a role in the boys disappearance?
05:46 | 07/10/2010

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/kyrons-stepmother-suspected-11132091

I'm so grateful for this video - thank you BeanE. Maybe 15-20 years ago PPD and PPP were thought to be confined to a very specific time frame such as a few weeks post partum. However that information is based on old data and has evolved significantly as new research indicates and as one can hear from this video.

I'm not a certified mental health care practitioner, but I am a clinical pharmacist and can guarantee there are many women, post partum, who are not diagnosed and/or treated correctly. Nothing worse than untreated PPD that escalates into PPP. Nothing worse than someone saying: this is NOT PPD or PPP because it doesn't fit into the designated time period. :eek:

If an anti-depressant is given to treat PPD why would it fail?
...sub-therapeutic dose results in sub-therapeutic blood levels (much like giving a placebo). RESULTS: PPD continues beyond designated time period.

...approaching therapeutic blood levels but not quite - PPD improves but still symptomatic

...Toxic blood levels - PPD can appear to be PPP, disorganized thinking, confusion, anxiety, and eventually can result in coma or death.

...wrong medication - sometimes, a trial with 3-4 antidepressants is necessary before finding one that is effective. That takes time.

...wrong diagnosis
...poor compliance

In medicine therapeutic blood levels tells us the medicine is doing what it should be doing. (and it gets more complicated from there)
TBL verified by timely blood draws is what we, in the medical profession, strive for.

With the above in mind, I hope Terri had timely blood draws resulting in therapeutic blood levels, and she was on the right medication that worked for her. If it wasn't effective, she could be anywhere on the spectrum as far as PPD and/or PPP. all just my opinion but given with decades of working as a clinical pharmacist.

human
07-10-2010, 05:01 PM
someone, such as her friends, should have told her to act as if you care, at least.

If they sided with her, they just made her look worse. If she disregarded any good advice she got, then it does show that she has some kind of issues.

SleuthyGal
07-10-2010, 07:52 PM
WTH SleuthyGal? What about people who are 'solving crimes' based on the media information versus what the LE really has? Are you putting yourself into that category? I'm not trying to be rude, at all, my tone if I were to talk to you would be a jibing friend, but seriously...

Ahhh Just, what you don't realize is that my post was moved from a completely different thread altogether and plopped right into this one, where it appears completely random and seemingly off topic. I was actually asking a followup question to one of the verified psychologists about the validity of people diagnosing others they've never met...again, on a different thread.

Why my post was moved here I don't know, but it was.

WTH indeed!

Wrinkles
07-12-2010, 01:19 AM
I think it's NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) or something along that continuum. As I've posted ad nauseum, my mother clearly has it. Note that she is not diagnosed.

--- snipped ---

I was talking to my mother about my ex-sister-in-law. My mother tends to side with my sibling's and my exes instead of with us. She said, "I feel so sorry for ____. Her mother was so hard on her." (which she was) I said, "You know, you were hard on me too." Quick denial on her part. She snapped, "No I wasn't!" End of discussion. I dropped it because that's all I needed to know. What I can't tell about Mom is does she believe the stories she makes up about things or not? She often has her own reality about events. She is also very very intelligent and very good at blaming others. JMO, YMMV.

WOAH! From what you write, I think we may have the same mom!

Calliope
07-12-2010, 02:09 AM
FWIW

By the time I finished my clinical rotation in psych, I'd "diagnosed" every person in my life (and some who weren't) with various neuroses and psychoses. It's quite easy to take particular diagnostic criteria and a particular set of circumstances and behavior(s) and claim a person has *whatever*. But I do believe that a professional and accurate psychiatric diagnosis requires a tad bit more evaluation (in person, even), to include differential diagnoses and ruling out physiologic causes, etc.

If it was as quick and easy as it appears to be here (and in my own experience), then certainly psychiatrists wouldn't command such high fees nor even be necessary for that matter.

helpfulcharlie
07-13-2010, 11:44 AM
Hey, aside from all the personality disorder discussion, which I'm not qualified to comment on... this is armchair psychology, right? I can speak for myself. If I was able to sculpt my body the way she had done in her bodybuilding photos, at that point I would feel like I could do anything I put my mind to. I would feel unstoppable.

matou
07-13-2010, 02:27 PM
What will it take for this woman to talk? She's lost her home, husband, baby, new lover(????). What will it take? Tell her she's beautiful? Sexy? Unfortunately, unless LE gets evidence soon, and especially if they feel Kyron is alive and may be in danger (the original issue from police was 'missing endangered') there could be a plea bargain in the works. She needs to talk now.

This woman can communicate about sex but not about what happened to Kyron. This case is driving me nuts.

passionflower
07-13-2010, 08:31 PM
I googled Emerald Cup body building for women.
I was surprised!
100% mental game to exercise, diet, sauna, tan/oil, train, disipline.
No time for family or anything else during competition times.
Lots of guilt over that.
My eyes were wide open when one lady said that seeing the body change on the outside did things to her mind.
Go check it out very interesting ..................
IMO, it is a very ME,ME and more ME sport..........

scandi
07-13-2010, 09:18 PM
Dr Frank Colistro on KOIN says out of all missing children, 80% are intro-familial. Of the remaining, 25% are little girls taken for sexual molestation

Here is some biography info on him:

http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/ReferencesView.aspx?PersonID=1228523626

Snippet
" . . . Thursday, January 24, 2008 - Dr. Frank Colistro, forensic psychologist and serial killer profile
...
Forensic Psychologist Dr. Frank Colistro in January

Dr. Frank Colistro is a consulting psychologist for several law enforcement agencies including the Behavioral and Risk Services Unit of the Oregon Department of Corrections, the Cold Case Unit of the Portland Police Bureau as well as a criminal profiler for several agencies. He also works with the Oregon Board of Parole, providing psychological assessment of inmate's potential of recidivism. Dr. Colistro has consulted with prosecution and defense attorneys on topics such as homicide investigations, major sex crimes and domestic violence cases.

As a criminal profiler, he has been involved in a number of highly publicized local cases including the Forest Park Rapist, KOIN Tower Shooter and the NE Portland Rapist. He was featured on national news as a commentator on the Ward Weaver case. He is often heard on local TV and radio. . . ."



Sorry, didn't know where to put this, but the statistics always change so much it is good to get fresh ones. This man is a Criminal Psychologist, and altho not working on the case has followed it since day 1. He finds it an odd case. Also that the new emphasis on the SM and her possible involvement is distracting focus on the main issue which is finding Kyron.

I thought his comments were very interesting.



PS: Mods, if this post has a better thread please feel free to move it. xox

scandi
07-13-2010, 09:37 PM
Video. Includes psychiatrist explaining PPD, and the difference between PPD and PPP.

ABC Good Morning America
Kyron's Stepmother Suspected
Could post partum depression have played a role in the boys disappearance?
05:46 | 07/10/2010

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/kyrons-stepmother-suspected-11132091

Thanks BeanE for that video. Dr Brissendine {sp} was very good I thought in the way she explained everything.

Interesting she thinks they must not think Terri would do harm to herself now or she would be in a psychiatric hospital. Rather, they are trying to keep people away from her.

I didn't know much about PPD or PPP but have a feeling for it now. I think she said 10 to 20% of all mothers have some PPD. 1 out of a thousand gets PPP, like Susan Smith or Andrea Yates.

The media has such wonderful coverage now. Imagine finding this Dr to comment on that element that so affects this case. ;} ABC with her and KOIN with Dr Colistro.

ami
07-13-2010, 09:40 PM
By the time I finished my clinical rotation in psych, I'd "diagnosed" every person in my life (and some who weren't) with various neuroses and psychoses.

Heh, I did that as well after a semester of Psych 101 and fully expect my daughter to do this as well as she is an upcoming psych major. I can't wait to hear how twisted I am. :)

I know this is all speculation about TH up until we have more facts, see and hear her speak more.

~~Actually there is one venue besides facebook that we've seen her in... was it officially confirmed she posted to that news message board? I read those posts and they were pretty disparaging of LE and adversarial, mocking, etc. Well, I won't go any further than that w/o knowing if those posts were indeed TH's writing. if they were, they'd give some good insight.

Boo Scout
07-16-2010, 04:19 PM
Best thread I think I can find to ask about other's opinions on this. KH just spoke in a recent article about TH getting re-licensed to teach recently.

I checked this out at the State of Oregon's Teacher Standards and Practices Commission website. Her license is effective as of 2/23/10 and expires 3/14/13.

I searched with last name and birthdate to pull it up.

http://www.tspc.state.or.us/lookup_query.asp?op=9&id=0

I find it interesting that she just did this. I'm wondering how this fits into what others think of her state of mind / possible personality disorders.

It doesn't fit with PPD for me.

This would take some effort on TH's part. It could indicate to me she was thinking about supporting herself w/o Kaine in the future, or it could be as simple as she wanted to return to work.

Any thoughts?

eyes4crime
07-16-2010, 05:56 PM
Best thread I think I can find to ask about other's opinions on this. KH just spoke in a recent article about TH getting re-licensed to teach recently.

I checked this out at the State of Oregon's Teacher Standards and Practices Commission website. Her license is effective as of 2/23/10 and expires 3/14/13.

I searched with last name and birthdate to pull it up.

http://www.tspc.state.or.us/lookup_query.asp?op=9&id=0

I find it interesting that she just did this. I'm wondering how this fits into what others think of her state of mind / possible personality disorders.

It doesn't fit with PPD for me.

This would take some effort on TH's part. It could indicate to me she was thinking about supporting herself w/o Kaine in the future, or it could be as simple as she wanted to return to work.

Any thoughts?

Thanks for finding that important info.
Any idea as to what she needed to do in order to have it reinstated? Did Terri let it lapse? Was it revoked? Was there an allegation against her? Just wondering how much work/planning it took to have it reinstated?

newone
07-16-2010, 06:12 PM
I have a mother like that too. Feel the love coming at ya from me!! We survived. Hard now, she's older and dementia has kicked in and can ONLY comment on herself EVERY subject is about HER. EVERY. More pronounced than ever. WE were raised by wolves dearie!

Ditto!!!

human
07-16-2010, 07:29 PM
I was talking to a psych student the other day because I was at a bookstore and started talking about the kind of books that I like-mysteries by women authors only (pretty much)..

Anyway, I started talking about this case and she said there is a new area of study that is looking at women who kill their children because it is so against what should happen.

Another customer came so the conversation ended, but I think that kind of information will be very helpful in the future.

tiredblondy
07-16-2010, 08:31 PM
If anyone would like to know about Reactive Attachment Disorder, Attachment Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, A bit of Narcissistic Disorder..

Ask me anything you want.

I have had very personal experience raising my children who were adopted at the ages of 3 and 6, who are now 25 and 29. It's been a rough road and I still don't know where it will end.

One child seems so much better after spending a while in jail the other one I still don't know?? We have had psychiatrist's and counselors since they were very young.

I love them so much but it also hurts to watch what they do to themselves and others. Both are very smart ,expert liars and one still lives in their own reality world. One is very street smart and I don't know how she became this way. We live in a rural area.

But, everyonce in a while I see hope-I get a note or verbal message from them that I am the one constant in their life and they would not still be alive if not for me.

They had a excellent counselor who said both would probably be in their 30's before they sought help on their own and that is what it will take. Apparently, it does not take much to go down the wrong road with their disorders.

I can totally see the Terri in one of my children. Once one lives with someone like this you can spot these charming deceptors quickly. They lie, steal, are sometimes violent, holes punched in the walls, etc anger but underneath all this false,friendly, smart, totally self-confident full of themselves persona/facade they present to others,is a great fear that they were thrown away, are truly worthless and fear to let anyone see the real person they are.
If they act out hard enough and long enough the people who love them will throw them away too so they lie cheat and steal to keep that from happening. That is why I have seen the real them. It didn't work with me, I'm still here even if they were holy terrors.
(an still are in some ways)

The counselor said this is why it is so hard for attachment disorders to face their fears because they must also identify that fear which they themselves never really understand.

How many times have I said to them " You must find out why you sabotage your happiness or your success with people or jobs?"

It is all about control! It's always someone else's fault.They will come up with all kinds of excuses ( no matter how old they are at the time 25 or almost 30, anything to keep from saying " I'm afraid if I let them see the real me the little boy or girl who got thrown away,if I do they will throw me away to." (yes it is so sad)

I learned to say I don't like what you did but I still love you, gave consequences for the actions and tried my best to give continuity and consitistency to their lives.
I have always been there for them the right way.(Not my ex) If I had not had the professional help we got I would be in a mental institution :banghead: or worse.

So ask away...They've called social services on me LOL with me standing there after looking up the number and giving it to them, stolen money, stolen items from stores, drained me dry financially, can't maintain jobs or roommates or relationships, both have trouble with the law.they make their own rules..I think I'm pretty much an expert on my two...LOL

Would I do it all over again if I could? I'd like to say yes and I want to say yes but only maybe if they could stay under 10 years of age forever. LOL
Yes I'd do it again but very differently cause I've learned so very much.


I always thought and prayed this-
Dear God, You gave me these two children, You put them in my care. I'm not going to give up but please dear Lord I pray You will continue to give me the strength and guide me. He has, Thank you Lord.

So feel free, Ask me anything! I may not have the clinical educational knowledge but I've got life experience!!!:cheerful:

tiredblondy
07-16-2010, 08:32 PM
I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make the previous post so long. Just got carried away.

BeanE
07-17-2010, 02:44 AM
KATU: Was Terri bi-polar, either diagnosed or not? Was she on medication at any point for mental health issues?

Kaine: Not that I am aware of but that would be between Terri and her Doctor.


http://www.katu.com/news/local/98654424.html

xin
07-17-2010, 02:47 AM
KATU: Was Terri bi-polar, either diagnosed or not? Was she on medication at any point for mental health issues?

Kaine: Not that I am aware of but that would be between Terri and her Doctor.


http://www.katu.com/news/local/98654424.html

Why is he answering/responding the these questions? To draw her out?

kimmera
07-17-2010, 03:08 AM
Why is he answering/responding the these questions? To draw her out?

IMO, yes I believe he is trying to draw her out, and by talking about PPD and other mental illnesses he is attempting to lay the groundwork for her defense. It may or may not be true, but I think that he is trying to get her to fess up. I also fully believe that LE is directing all of this, and has been from the jump. I pray that it works....MOO.

kimmera
07-17-2010, 03:12 AM
I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make the previous post so long. Just got carried away.

No apology needed...thanks for the insight and honesty. Blessings to you...:blowkiss:

AvalonBlue
07-17-2010, 03:43 AM
I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make the previous post so long. Just got carried away.

Dear tiredblondy,

I don't think your previous post was too long or that you got carried away. I think every word of your post was brilliant and so very heartfelt. I'm going to read it again and again and I hope others who have not seen it will find it and read it. (Post #78)

You did a great job of describing what so many of us may "know" logically, and yet struggle with over and over again emotionally.

I believe your post adds significantly to the knowledge base on WS that can help others to understand this complex issue.

God bless you.:blowkiss:

Susan10
07-17-2010, 03:49 AM
Best thread I think I can find to ask about other's opinions on this. KH just spoke in a recent article about TH getting re-licensed to teach recently.

I checked this out at the State of Oregon's Teacher Standards and Practices Commission website. Her license is effective as of 2/23/10 and expires 3/14/13.

I searched with last name and birthdate to pull it up.

http://www.tspc.state.or.us/lookup_query.asp?op=9&id=0

I find it interesting that she just did this. I'm wondering how this fits into what others think of her state of mind / possible personality disorders.

It doesn't fit with PPD for me.

This would take some effort on TH's part. It could indicate to me she was thinking about supporting herself w/o Kaine in the future, or it could be as simple as she wanted to return to work.

Any thoughts?

Unbelievable. If my child was missing, biological or not, I could not funtion at all. Renewing license? That takes clarity of thought. No grief there.

She's angry, not sad. IMHO, she blames KH for everything she's done. It's all his fault, whatever she's done.

She's marching forward, trying to show the world that "I'm not guilty, therefore I will be strong, get a job, carry on, be normal."

The absence of grief gives me grief. There is no evidence of sadness, of loss. It takes a long time to operate normally again....and without even knowing what's happened to Kyron? Beyond the norm. Not knowing is a never ending stabbing pain for someone who cares. Not knowing leaves too much painful room for imagination of the worst kind. It becomes a nightmarish obsession one cannot escape.

IMHO, she's justified in her mind what she's done and therefore has no remorse. She can't even fake caring because there is no care. No guilt. No sense of responsibility for her actions. To TH, it's not her fault. It's someone else's fault for her actions.

How does a person get to a place where she wants her husband DEAD and takes action to effect it? A person who wants and plans a MFH would have no problem killing his child without regret, imho. "He made me do it because he's such a (fill in the blank). It's all his fault."

newone
07-17-2010, 04:00 AM
Grief is a very strange emotion -- there is no ''right'' way to express it. I was unable to search her license ((I am unclear on her b/date)). Being devil's advocate here, it was best use of her time?

At the time of a sudden loss in my loss I was able to function but was like a robot. Oh by the way, I wasn't guilty!!!

Calliope
07-17-2010, 09:16 AM
KATU: Was Terri bi-polar, either diagnosed or not? Was she on medication at any point for mental health issues?

Kaine: Not that I am aware of but that would be between Terri and her Doctor.


http://www.katu.com/news/local/98654424.html

Didn't he say she WAS on medication?

Kat
07-17-2010, 05:01 PM
Didn't he say she WAS on medication?

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_hormans_father_recalls_w.html


...Terri Horman was put on medication for the depression, and her doctor told Kaine to keep an eye on her to make sure she was OK, he said. But she wasn't OK.

"She's had a lot of emotional outbursts," he said. "I think it's still with her. I don't know if it's postpartum or something else." ...


http://www.katu.com/news/98654424.html


...KATU: Was Terri bi-polar, either diagnosed or not? Was she on medication at any point for mental health issues?

Kaine: Not that I am aware of but that would be between Terri and her Doctor.

I think Kaine was answering the first part of the question. Was she bi-polar.

cluciano63
07-17-2010, 05:16 PM
As far as we know, Terri raised her son successfully, despite the fact that he seems to have been in at least 4 (if you count whereever he is now) households. There is no indication that she ever lived apart from him, until recently, that I am aware of. I find it hard to believe that she has a sociopathic personality that only just is showing itself now. It is very rare, as far as I know, for such a late manisfestation. I have not heard anyone say she was unstable prior to Kaine coming forth about the months after the baby was born. Desiree claims that Terri is a liar, but that is a common claim between ex-wives.

I'm still thinking that if whatever happened on June 4th involved Terri and the harming of Kyron, it was the result of either a mental meltdown of some sort or an accident.

human
07-17-2010, 05:35 PM
Is a sociopath unstable?

I don't know if that is a true statement.

GrainneDhu
07-17-2010, 06:13 PM
Unbelievable. If my child was missing, biological or not, I could not funtion at all. Renewing license? That takes clarity of thought. No grief there.

I think I may have missed something. When I did the search, it said that her license was renewed as of 23 Feb 2010. That was more than three months before Kyron went missing.

If I am correct, though, it makes me wonder if her older son moving out was the impetus behind her renewing her license.

human
07-17-2010, 06:23 PM
I think I may have missed something. When I did the search, it said that her license was renewed as of 23 Feb 2010. That was more than three months before Kyron went missing.

If I am correct, though, it makes me wonder if her older son moving out was the impetus behind her renewing her license.

If it's like my state, it takes months for the paperwork to be completed to renew the license.

What I mean is that one submits documentation and the money, and then it takes months for the state to finalize the paperwork.

Caligram
07-17-2010, 06:31 PM
It takes an evil person to commit an evil act upon a child. Doctors may try to give all kinds of excuses of mental disorders, but the cold hard fact remains that a cold-hearted person can kill a child for a multitude of "personal" reasons. Supplying Terri with a named recognized disorder is not going to provide her with an excuse. Killing is killing, and evil can exist in the heart of the "nicest person".

oceanblueeyes
07-17-2010, 06:51 PM
I would never try to psychoanalyze a woman I have never even heard speak.

IMO

human
07-17-2010, 07:18 PM
tired blondy-I can relate somewhat to your story as my sister adopted 2 children, but I don't believe they have RAD. One has FAE and the other diagnosed with borderline.

They are adults now. I took the younger FAE child at one point to give my sister a break.

They are wonderful in their own way. But the toll that it takes on a human being is not one that I could do as you have done.

There are things that happened to my nieces before they were adopted.

I always think how unfair as they never asked for those things to happen. I hope your children do get it one day. It sounds like they have an excellent foundation.

Truly, my love goes out to you for doing something that is just about impossible, I feel.

BeanE
07-18-2010, 08:03 AM
Terri Horman reveals herself in profile surveys
KGW Updated yesterday at 3:00 PM

The results of two online surveys posted on Terri Horman's Facebook page provide a unique chance to see how Kyron Horman's stepmom perceives herself.

While police have not named Terri as a suspect, court filings by Kaine Horman say police gave him "probably cause" to believe she was involved in the missing boy's disappearance.

The survey results were posted June 19, 2009, after Terri's daughter was born but nearly a year before her stepson Kyron disappeared.

Psychologists KGW spoke to call the surveys "projective" because those who fill them out project their psychological feelings onto the questions posed.

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Insights-to-Terri-Horman-98377499.html

Calliope
07-18-2010, 08:32 AM
Terri Horman reveals herself in profile surveys
KGW Updated yesterday at 3:00 PM

The results of two online surveys posted on Terri Horman's Facebook page provide a unique chance to see how Kyron Horman's stepmom perceives herself.

While police have not named Terri as a suspect, court filings by Kaine Horman say police gave him "probably cause" to believe she was involved in the missing boy's disappearance.

The survey results were posted June 19, 2009, after Terri's daughter was born but nearly a year before her stepson Kyron disappeared.

Psychologists KGW spoke to call the surveys "projective" because those who fill them out project their psychological feelings onto the questions posed.

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Insights-to-Terri-Horman-98377499.html

Oh for the love of ...

BeanE
07-18-2010, 08:47 AM
Oh for the love of ...

:floorlaugh:

I wonder if she ever took any of those surveys in Cosmo.

helpfulcharlie
07-18-2010, 08:48 AM
Facebook surveys have to be looked at in context, especially with someone like TH. She seems concerned with how people perceive her. So in addition to the questions and answers, it would help to see who she shared those answers with, or who she didn't. I have been known to post things on FB and deliberately NOT share them with three of my FB friends who are coworkers, just because I feel like sometimes oversharing with coworkers opens a can of worms. There are also things that I only share with family, and there are things which I deliberately shield the kids.

In other words, the q&a probably mean very little, and are only part of the equation.

grayjay
07-18-2010, 08:55 AM
These answers were so much easier to find than those tea leaves they would have preferred. :D

eyes4crime
07-18-2010, 10:18 AM
snip
The survey continues: "If you won the lottery how would you spend your millions?" The answer: "On family first, save some and donate to the needy."

Finally, the survey asks "If you could have one super human power what would you choose?" The answer:"Read minds."
snip

http://www.kgw.com/home/Insights-to-Terri-Horman-98377499.html

BBM

I haven't been able to put Terri into the 'psychopathic' slot - for me, she doesn't fit the criteria. I know her answers were from over a year ago in 2009, but this answer hardly reflects the thinking of a psychopath. :waitasec: moo mho

"If you won the lottery how would you spend your millions?" The answer: "On family first, save some and donate to the needy."

human
07-18-2010, 11:32 AM
snip
The survey continues: "If you won the lottery how would you spend your millions?" The answer: "On family first, save some and donate to the needy."

Finally, the survey asks "If you could have one super human power what would you choose?" The answer:"Read minds."
snip

http://www.kgw.com/home/Insights-to-Terri-Horman-98377499.html

BBM

I haven't been able to put Terri into the 'psychopathic' slot - for me, she doesn't fit the criteria. I know her answers were from over a year ago in 2009, but this answer hardly reflects the thinking of a psychopath. :waitasec: moo mho

"If you won the lottery how would you spend your millions?" The answer: "On family first, save some and donate to the needy."

Oh OH. My answers for what I would do with the lottery are the same!

eyes4crime
07-18-2010, 11:41 AM
Oh OH. My answers for what I would do with the lottery are the same!

Uh oh - my answers would be just about the same too human. Murderous psychopaths don't think like that. Maybe she saw the answer somewhere and picked up on it. Or, maybe she simply is not a psychopath. moo mho

eyes4crime
07-18-2010, 01:50 PM
Terri was 38yo when baby girl was born. Speculation: What if Terri decided to have her tubes tied to avoid future pregnancies. Maybe Kaine was in on that decision. Wonder how that would play out in a faltering marriage?

Chewy
07-18-2010, 01:57 PM
These articles are ridiculous, especially the ones regarding Facebook surveys. You can't put your own information into most of these surveys they have limited options and often you chose one that is closest to what you feel. To use this as some sort of psyche profile just shows how idiotic our world has become.

tiredblondy
07-18-2010, 02:47 PM
tired blondy-I can relate somewhat to your story as my sister adopted 2 children, but I don't believe they have RAD. One has FAE and the other diagnosed with borderline.

They are adults now. I took the younger FAE child at one point to give my sister a break.

They are wonderful in their own way. But the toll that it takes on a human being is not one that I could do as you have done.

There are things that happened to my nieces before they were adopted.

I always think how unfair as they never asked for those things to happen. I hope your children do get it one day. It sounds like they have an excellent foundation.

Truly, my love goes out to you for doing something that is just about impossible, I feel.

Thank you for those kind inspiring words.

tiredblondy
07-18-2010, 02:52 PM
Dear tiredblondy,

I don't think your previous post was too long or that you got carried away. I think every word of your post was brilliant and so very heartfelt. I'm going to read it again and again and I hope others who have not seen it will find it and read it. (Post #78)

You did a great job of describing what so many of us may "know" logically, and yet struggle with over and over again emotionally.

I believe your post adds significantly to the knowledge base on WS that can help others to understand this complex issue.

God bless you.:blowkiss:

Thank you so much for your support and kind words. They mean a lot.

Emma Peel
07-18-2010, 03:38 PM
Terri Horman reveals herself in profile surveys
KGW Updated yesterday at 3:00 PM

<snipped the media quote>

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Insights-to-Terri-Horman-98377499.html

Just have to admit - in the interest of full dis-clothes-sure - that these days, any article that says "Terri Horman reveals herself..." will make even me read it. :angel:

these news sites are soooooo ... enjoying this. :snooty:

wondering1
07-18-2010, 04:25 PM
snip
The survey continues: "If you won the lottery how would you spend your millions?" The answer: "On family first, save some and donate to the needy."

Finally, the survey asks "If you could have one super human power what would you choose?" The answer:"Read minds."
snip

http://www.kgw.com/home/Insights-to-Terri-Horman-98377499.html

BBM

I haven't been able to put Terri into the 'psychopathic' slot - for me, she doesn't fit the criteria. I know her answers were from over a year ago in 2009, but this answer hardly reflects the thinking of a psychopath. :waitasec: moo mho

"If you won the lottery how would you spend your millions?" The answer: "On family first, save some and donate to the needy."

fwiw, since my only *training* on the subject is personal experience, and not diagnosing TH, sociopaths can and do emulate perfectly normal behavior (accent on the perfectly, as they often seem to be model citizens, parents, etc. to outsiders), they just don't FEEL it. So a sociopath would recognize that that's the perfect answer to the lottery question, and give that answer because they want to appear perfect in their values (family first, fiscally responsible, altruistic). However, they wouldn't really feel that way, like you would, and can't even really understand why anyone would feel that way since it's not self-centered. They are completely lacking in empathy or sympathy.

You don't really get to know a sociopath until they pick you as a target and/or you become an obstacle to something they desire. Just for an apropos example, a spouse is a great prop for a perfect family, but can be an obstacle to an affair or other inappropriate behavior, like drug or alcohol abuse. Usually, it's only very close family members who present enough consistent obstacles to see the true nature of the individual. And of those family members, like parents, they often don't want to believe what they see. Often out of shame, guilt, etc. And actually, many people don't know the first thing about the disorder and aren't aware of exactly what they're dealing with until after something really awful happens. jmoo

NewsMuse
07-18-2010, 05:52 PM
I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make the previous post so long. Just got carried away.

No, not too long. I also read it twice since it almost mirrors my experience raising my step-sons and life as it is now. Hubs had sole custody of them since they were 3 and 4 (his choice and ex-wife agreed though she did contribute in her way because of pressure from her family; no physical abuse).

The oldest was dx ADHD in elem school (early 1990's) and I was against medication. We did all the therapy, counseling, everything we were supposed to. I finally caved and agreed to a small dose of Ritalin (drug of choice at the time). His teacher(s) actually wrote me thank you notes. I felt like a dog. Next, his therapist discharged him, less than a year. I was livid because I KNEW he had fooled all of them. And he was only 10 yo. He'll be 30 soon and has custody of his own daughter, our granddaughter. Nothing has changed and I still know his lies over the phone. (They live several states away, his job, and another story.)

Our younger son still lives nearby, successful, but also has some anger issues. However, after several turbulent years he's made it clear how he feels about me. I know that he feels guilty about not being able to have these feelings for his bio-mom and her (rather large) family, but intellectually he realizes his life turned out better; emotionally he just doesn't "get" his mom/step-dad and their lifestyle. (Not a bad lifestyle; they just basically live in the same house, more like roommates than husband and wife; probably a financial thing; IDK; but I do KNOW that his step-dad hates all women and she's verbally abused). He also knows not to trust his older brother and won't even let him stay alone at his house. Very smart since possessions STILL somehow get broken or gone when he's around.

It's awful to know that before the oldest one comes to visit, we must do a sweep of the entire home and lock up certain things in the safe while he's here. He refuses meds because he "has it under control". We worry so about our granddaughter. My only comfort is that his bio-mom visits him once a month (he lives about 5-6 hours from her). Because of his lies, bio-mom and I don't communicate anymore. The last thing she said to me, and I will never forget this, was "Whatever you do, don't send him any money." Apparently, I had unknowingly busted him in a huge lie and to this day, he doesn't even know that we don't email or speak. He is clueless. It's always about the money (that he never has and we don't give him, ever).

Like you, I don't have the medical degree but I have (what seems like) a lifetime of knowledge about personalities, body language, etc. It's just so surprising what you learn just by quietly observing, even the therapists and doctors he fooled. He's not fooling his daughter, though; she's also observing his behavior. She knows and she notices. That really made him mad. She wasn't "allowed" to come this summer (her words). But she did get to stay a month with her other nana, who let her call us (very nice, BTW).

My granddaughter. I'm sure that's why I'm pulled to these cases. Then I have to take a few days away or my imagination runs wild. But reading about what others think and/or have gone through does tend to make one take a step back and look at this whole family, all four of them, in different ways. JMO.

pittsburghgirl
08-24-2010, 12:15 AM
Not to interrupt the motor vehicle violation discussion, but I just got caught back up after the weekend, and I wanted to look at interesting, but frustrating exchange on Nancy Grace last week, in which Psycholanalyst Bethany Marshall long-distance diagnoses TMH as a borderline personality. (Admittedly a pet peeve with me, but I intend to dip a toe or two in that water myself, momentarily.) Here's the conversation as it unfolded on NG:


JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That`s right. And when you talk about motive, you know, some e-mails have come out. She had a son, an older son that went to live with her parents a few months before. 

E-mails have come out saying that he was doing so much better when he wasn`t in the presence of Kyron. 

GRACE: Now I don`t understand that. What does that mean, Dr. Bethany?


BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I don`t quite understand that one, to be quite honest with you. But to go to the caller`s question I think that Terri may have had, like, a borderline personality disorder which causes extreme -- 


GRACE: There you go again. 

(CROSSTALK)


GRACE: You say that every -- you know, do you think everybody out there has a personality disorder?


MARSHALL: Well, most -- 


GRACE: Do you think you have a personality disorder? I mean because every time I ask you something you say they`ve got a borderline personality disorder. 


MARSHALL: Well, Nancy, something is really wrong with someone who puts a hit -- tries to get a hit-man to kill her husband and then does away with her child but -- because with borderline there is such extreme ragefulness and there`s lack of a conscience and at the slightest insult they really want to do away with people. 

There is a callousness and a coldness. And that`s why I think about
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1008/20/ng.01.html

Aside from the usual NG interruptions, during which a potentially interesting point gets lost, Marshall's comments caught my attention because the article under discussion here had already got me to thinking about someone I knew who was a borderline personality. Now, I am not sure what Marshall is talking about, because most descriptions of borderlines that I have seen don't highlight "ragefulness" or "lack of conscience" or "callousness."

So I looked up borderline personality and found this on the NIMH website; I thought it was more useful for lay people than, say, than the DSM description. I snipped a bit for space:

While a person with depression or bipolar disorder typically endures the same mood for weeks, a person with BPD may experience intense bouts of anger, depression, and anxiety that may last only hours, or at most a day. These may be associated with episodes of impulsive aggression, self-injury, and drug or alcohol abuse. Distortions in cognition and sense of self can lead to frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, friendships, gender identity, and values….They may feel unfairly misunderstood or mistreated, bored, empty, and have little idea who they are. Such symptoms are most acute when people with BPD feel isolated and lacking in social support, and may result in frantic efforts to avoid being alone.

People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike). Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all. Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans…

People with BPD exhibit other impulsive behaviors, such as excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex. BPD often occurs together with other psychiatric problems, particularly bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and other personality disorders.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder-fact-sheet/index.shtml


This description talks about "intense bouts of anger" [or other emotions] that "may only last hours, or at most a day," and which are "associated with episodes of impulsive aggression..or drug and alcohol abuse." So for a borderline, if I have this correctly, rage or anger is intense but passes quickly and may occur with "episodes" of aggression or alcohol abuse (the word "episode" implying contained and having a beginning and end.) The unfortunate NG discussion really cut short this important point, which indicates that anger/rage in such people is not a pervasive, contunual condition but rather intense and "episodic."

If we think about that in relation to the discussion further down, we see that people with this personality disorder have "stormy" relationships, in which their valuation of a loved one might switch "suddenly" from love and admiration to "intense anger and dislike."

We also note the extreme fear of abandonment and rejection--which in the case of the woman I knew, led to abandoning people, including her children as they became adolescents and therefore began (naturally) pulling away from their parents.

Then:

"frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, friendships, gender identity and values..."
they may "have little idea who they are"
"frantic efforts to avoid being alone" if they feel isolated and "lacking in social support"
"risky behaviors," e.g. "excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex."
"often occurs with other problems." e.g., depression and substance abuse.

Now, I am not going to be a giant hypocrite and diagnose TH, but Bethany Marshall kindly opened the door. It seems to me that TH might well be the same page as "borderline." At least, as we consider how a woman could seemingly stop loving a little guy like Kyron, or turn on a dime from helping him with his science project to kidnapping or worse, we can see that "psychopath" is not the only possibility. This personality disorder would explain much of what we see in the article, in particular, her seeming disenchantment with Kyron (the notion that her bio son was better off away from Kyron); the sexting and moving DS in after Kaine left (to avoid being alone); the reported "spending money like water"; the DUi and traffic issues,etc. I'd love to hear a real, uninterrupted discussion of the role mental health problems like borderline personality disorder and narcissism play in criminal behavior.

mmmagique
08-24-2010, 12:17 AM
revampz, my husbands' ex-wife is exactly like this also--but she has green eyes, 2 daughters and a son--but the red hair rules. She has been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and is also bipolar. Has been in trouble with court, etc. more times than TH, but she is older. Always has several on on a string, must have perfect house, clothes, etc., very pretty,--"spends money like water." Went thru $100,000 of my husband's money in the year they were together. She has had five husbands--just married husband #5 after knowing him for 2 weeks--poor guy.

This number of charges together with the focus on image suggests a personality disorder to me--another piece of the puzzle who is Terri. In fact, I expected an arrest record like this given what we already know.

Hey now!

Enough with dissing the redheads and/or those of us who had "bad boys" when young, but went with the more interesting/established men when older...

(not directed at you specifically revampv...just kinda sick of reading about the redhead angle. *lol*) Plus, I would think many women would learn as they "grow up" (however long it may take some of us) that the "bad boys" are not the ones who are going to be there for us, in any way. AND that it's nice to not have to worry about money, eventually.

It's not necessarily indicative of a personality disorder to want the best for you and your children. Although if you step on others to get those things, it should probably be investigated.

SmoothOperator
08-24-2010, 01:19 AM
Not to interrupt the motor vehicle violation discussion, but I just got caught back up after the weekend, and I wanted to look at interesting, but frustrating exchange on Nancy Grace last week, in which Psycholanalyst Bethany Marshall long-distance diagnoses TMH as a borderline personality. (Admittedly a pet peeve with me, but I intend to dip a toe or two in that water myself, momentarily.) Here's the conversation as it unfolded on NG:


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1008/20/ng.01.html

Aside from the usual NG interruptions, during which a potentially interesting point gets lost, Marshall's comments caught my attention because the article under discussion here had already got me to thinking about someone I knew who was a borderline personality. Now, I am not sure what Marshall is talking about, because most descriptions of borderlines that I have seen don't highlight "ragefulness" or "lack of conscience" or "callousness."

So I looked up borderline personality and found this on the NIMH website; I thought it was more useful for lay people than, say, than the DSM description. I snipped a bit for space:


This description talks about "intense bouts of anger" [or other emotions] that "may only last hours, or at most a day," and which are "associated with episodes of impulsive aggression..or drug and alcohol abuse." So for a borderline, if I have this correctly, rage or anger is intense but passes quickly and may occur with "episodes" of aggression or alcohol abuse (the word "episode" implying contained and having a beginning and end.) The unfortunate NG discussion really cut short this important point, which indicates that anger/rage in such people is not a pervasive, contunual condition but rather intense and "episodic."

If we think about that in relation to the discussion further down, we see that people with this personality disorder have "stormy" relationships, in which their valuation of a loved one might switch "suddenly" from love and admiration to "intense anger and dislike."

We also note the extreme fear of abandonment and rejection--which in the case of the woman I knew, led to abandoning people, including her children as they became adolescents and therefore began (naturally) pulling away from their parents.

Then:

"frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, friendships, gender identity and values..."
they may "have little idea who they are"
"frantic efforts to avoid being alone" if they feel isolated and "lacking in social support"
"risky behaviors," e.g. "excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex."
"often occurs with other problems." e.g., depression and substance abuse.

Now, I am not going to be a giant hypocrite and diagnose TH, but Bethany Marshall kindly opened the door. It seems to me that TH might well be the same page as "borderline." At least, as we consider how a woman could seemingly stop loving a little guy like Kyron, or turn on a dime from helping him with his science project to kidnapping or worse, we can see that "psychopath" is not the only possibility. This personality disorder would explain much of what we see in the article, in particular, her seeming disenchantment with Kyron (the notion that her bio son was better off away from Kyron); the sexting and moving DS in after Kaine left (to avoid being alone); the reported "spending money like water"; the DUi and traffic issues,etc. I'd love to hear a real, uninterrupted discussion of the role mental health problems like borderline personality disorder and narcissism play in criminal behavior.

http://bestsmileys.com/wow/1.gif!! pittsburghgirl, the above post is outstandingly informative and EXTREMELY relevant ..

I, too agree with you that though undiagnosed by a professional[<- AFAIK]this very well could be what we're dealing with..

Again great and informative post, pittsburghgirl. Thanks so much for researching and sharing.. http://bestsmileys.com/signs14/22.gif

angelainwi
08-24-2010, 01:20 AM
People who have BPD tend to see things and people as black or white. And they can change from one to the other very quickly...

rnmif
08-24-2010, 02:59 AM
Then:

"frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, friendships, gender identity and values..."
they may "have little idea who they are"
"frantic efforts to avoid being alone" if they feel isolated and "lacking in social support"
"risky behaviors," e.g. "excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex."
"often occurs with other problems." e.g., depression and substance abuse.

Now, I am not going to be a giant hypocrite and diagnose TH, but Bethany Marshall kindly opened the door. It seems to me that TH might well be the same page as "borderline." At least, as we consider how a woman could seemingly stop loving a little guy like Kyron, or turn on a dime from helping him with his science project to kidnapping or worse, we can see that "psychopath" is not the only possibility. This personality disorder would explain much of what we see in the article, in particular, her seeming disenchantment with Kyron (the notion that her bio son was better off away from Kyron); the sexting and moving DS in after Kaine left (to avoid being alone); the reported "spending money like water"; the DUi and traffic issues,etc. I'd love to hear a real, uninterrupted discussion of the role mental health problems like borderline personality disorder and narcissism play in criminal behavior.

Borderline would virtually eliminate the possibility of premeditation. Female borderlines are likely to express impulsivity through spending, sex, food, men through more aggressive acts, which tends to be responsible for the correlation between jail time and borderlines.

Personally, I'd find it extremely hard to imagine a borderline being able to insinuate themselves into the school the way TH did. One of the reasons borderlines tend towards superficial attachments is the impulsivity means they can't keep up the facade for long, and once the mask slips, they're gone.

TH has had some incredibly stable and long term relationships for a borderline as well. They tend to be the ones that their friends and family will turn on, not the "I never saw it coming" sort. Friends and family of a borderline will all be all too familiar with the push-pull dynamic of a borderline to believe in their innocence.

eyes4crime
08-24-2010, 06:38 AM
Borderline would virtually eliminate the possibility of premeditation. Female borderlines are likely to express impulsivity through spending, sex, food, men through more aggressive acts, which tends to be responsible for the correlation between jail time and borderlines.

Personally, I'd find it extremely hard to imagine a borderline being able to insinuate themselves into the school the way TH did. One of the reasons borderlines tend towards superficial attachments is the impulsivity means they can't keep up the facade for long, and once the mask slips, they're gone.

TH has had some incredibly stable and long term relationships for a borderline as well. They tend to be the ones that their friends and family will turn on, not the "I never saw it coming" sort. Friends and family of a borderline will all be all too familiar with the push-pull dynamic of a borderline to believe in their innocence.

Excellent assessment! :yes: What do you think of the possibility of 'dependent personality'? TIA

ThoughtFox
08-24-2010, 07:37 AM
I think it's NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) or something along that continuum. As I've posted ad nauseum, my mother clearly has it. Note that she is not diagnosed. It's tough to diagnose, and an NPD person doesn't think there is anything wrong with them in the first place! Why treat it? I didn't reach this realization about her NPD until last year, when her NPD (among other three-initial acronyms) caused a serious family crisis. I read the book "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers". Bingo.

I have to run, so I can add more later, but I'll give one example of the similarity between TH's behavior and my mother's: TH is asked about the family situation: "Everything's Good!" (paraphrased by me--don't have exact quote handy). Clearly it wasn't. KH and baby were already gone.

I was talking to my mother about my ex-sister-in-law. My mother tends to side with my sibling's and my exes instead of with us. She said, "I feel so sorry for ____. Her mother was so hard on her." (which she was) I said, "You know, you were hard on me too." Quick denial on her part. She snapped, "No I wasn't!" End of discussion. I dropped it because that's all I needed to know. What I can't tell about Mom is does she believe the stories she makes up about things or not? She often has her own reality about events. She is also very very intelligent and very good at blaming others. JMO, YMMV.

I too have a Narcissist in the family - and he could never be diagnosed because Narcissists will avoid psychologists like the plague or slam the entire profession. They are not introspective and don't want input into their problems - they don't think they have any problems no matter how dysfunctional their family life is or how many friends they lose.

I think you're totally right that TH displays these tendencies.

Narcissists want everyone to love them above all. The only thing that matters is for them to get attention, and when they don't get what they think they deserve, expect pouting, anger, and outrageous behavior. Terri's sexting and body-building seem like classic exhibitionism so that everyone will notice her. But in other people it might be a tendency to speak too loudly, draw attention to themselves, joining all kinds of clubs or committees and expecting to be in charge, or just a domineering personality.

But these Narcissists have no concept of real unconditional love. Instead, they can easily be flattered by acquaintances while becoming indifferent or even hostile to their own family members.

Narcissists can have long term relationships - it's just they eventually make everyone around them miserable with their self-centeredness.

I've been dealing with a person like that now for 27 years - most of my adult life. He will talk about how close he feels ("like a brother") to his banker, his doctor, or the guy at the convenience store, and meanwhile ignore his own grandchildren to the point of alienating them.

He will send money to any charity that appeals to his vanity, but he doesn't care if his family members are struggling with money - in fact he will call up people in financial distress and tell them not to worry about him, that he is okay. I think that might explain Kaine's recent statement about Terri wasting money - maybe she was trying to buy some friends, literally, and hiding money so she could do that. She may have cared more about appearing wealthy in front of people who barely knew her instead of caring what her husband thought about their family finances.

And lastly, the person in my own family will talk about what a happy, healthy family he has and sound totally sentimental, but ruin every holiday by making people uncomfortable, or lecturing them on their faults. This last one reminds me of Terri, expecting people to believe she loved Kyron and was the perfect stepmother, but on the other hand being too strict with discipline and insisting that he had so many problems she needed to take him to a doctor for seizures just because he was daydreaming.

Classic Narcissist - there cannot be anything wrong with them so there must be something wrong with everyone else.

Just my armchair opinion. :twocents:

Haeve
08-24-2010, 10:41 AM
I too have a Narcissist in the family - and he could never be diagnosed because Narcissists will avoid psychologists like the plague or slam the entire profession. They are not introspective and don't want input into their problems - they don't think they have any problems no matter how dysfunctional their family life is or how many friends they lose.

I think you're totally right that TH displays these tendencies.

Narcissists want everyone to love them above all. The only thing that matters is for them to get attention, and when they don't get what they think they deserve, expect pouting, anger, and outrageous behavior. Terri's sexting and body-building seem like classic exhibitionism so that everyone will notice her. But in other people it might be a tendency to speak too loudly, draw attention to themselves, joining all kinds of clubs or committees and expecting to be in charge, or just a domineering personality.

But these Narcissists have no concept of real unconditional love. Instead, they can easily be flattered by acquaintances while becoming indifferent or even hostile to their own family members.

Narcissists can have long term relationships - it's just they eventually make everyone around them miserable with their self-centeredness.

I've been dealing with a person like that now for 27 years - most of my adult life. He will talk about how close he feels ("like a brother") to his banker, his doctor, or the guy at the convenience store, and meanwhile ignore his own grandchildren to the point of alienating them.

He will send money to any charity that appeals to his vanity, but he doesn't care if his family members are struggling with money - in fact he will call up people in financial distress and tell them not to worry about him, that he is okay. I think that might explain Kaine's recent statement about Terri wasting money - maybe she was trying to buy some friends, literally, and hiding money so she could do that. She may have cared more about appearing wealthy in front of people who barely knew her instead of caring what her husband thought about their family finances.

And lastly, the person in my own family will talk about what a happy, healthy family he has and sound totally sentimental, but ruin every holiday by making people uncomfortable, or lecturing them on their faults. This last one reminds me of Terri, expecting people to believe she loved Kyron and was the perfect stepmother, but on the other hand being too strict with discipline and insisting that he had so many problems she needed to take him to a doctor for seizures just because he was daydreaming.

Classic Narcissist - there cannot be anything wrong with them so there must be something wrong with everyone else.

Just my armchair opinion. :twocents:

Thanks for your post. Bolding a few statements.

My mother literally gives candy to strangers. She hands out candy. She'll also find out about one of your interests and give you things relating to your interest. (Note that she doesn't know what color my hair is or what I majored in in college.) People love her.

Re: flattered by strangers and hostile to family members. I call this the "wonderful stranger" phenomenon. Strangers are wonderful until they cross some boundary of my mothers. During the family crisis last summer, a government official who was helping us could have walked on water according to her. Until he finally put his foot down about the situation, which involved a timeline. Suddenly he was a...lower body part. From 0 to 60. Very black and white. You can guess how she feels about me. :angel:

Re: happy family. My mom is more twisted, if that's possible--she talks sentimentally about how she "yelled at you kids all the time" like it's a warm fuzzy family story.

Oh, and uncharacteristically, she loves psychology. Long story. But I did turn her love for male authority figures to our family's advantage--last summer I tattled on her to her doctor about one of her other three-letter acronyms and she went to counseling on his referral. I doubt her counselor will be able to tackle her NPD, but as ambivalent as I am about my mother, I knew she would need help dealing with the crisis (that she created).

Back on topic: The little bits of info we keep getting about TH continue to reinforce my impression that she's NPD. I can totally see how folks lucky enough to not deal with a person like this would read her actions innocently, and I'm happy for that. My perceptions are permanently skewed. For example the ex-inlaws being suspect of TH giving them flowers. It sounds like something my mother would do.

It took me over 40 years to see what a child my mother really is (despite being very intelligent and very good at her professional career). She has many people charmed and fooled. So without knowing the full story, I don't fault KH or anyone else for not noticing sooner if TH is NPD. Which doesn't make her a murderer, but it does make her look very suspicious. JMHO, YMMV. :cow:

watchful_eye
08-24-2010, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by wondering1, BBM:

sociopaths can and do emulate perfectly normal behavior (accent on the perfectly, as they often seem to be model citizens, parents, etc. to outsiders), they just don't FEEL it. So a sociopath would recognize that that's the perfect answer to the lottery question, and give that answer because they want to appear perfect in their values (family first, fiscally responsible, altruistic). However, they wouldn't really feel that way, like you would, and can't even really understand why anyone would feel that way since it's not self-centered. They are completely lacking in empathy or sympathy.

You don't really get to know a sociopath until they pick you as a target and/or you become an obstacle to something they desire. Just for an apropos example, a spouse is a great prop for a perfect family, but can be an obstacle to an affair or other inappropriate behavior, like drug or alcohol abuse. Usually, it's only very close family members who present enough consistent obstacles to see the true nature of the individual. And of those family members, like parents, they often don't want to believe what they see. Often out of shame, guilt, etc. And actually, many people don't know the first thing about the disorder and aren't aware of exactly what they're dealing with until after something really awful happens. jmoo

HELL to the YES. Thank you for posting and it is the truth!

rnmif
08-24-2010, 01:12 PM
Excellent assessment! :yes: What do you think of the possibility of 'dependent personality'? TIA

I know nothing of that one.... only have the misfortune to know about BPD because the daughter I placed for adoption at birth (who was subsequently kicked out by her adoptive parents and moved in with us) has that diagnosis.

We've been a therapeutic foster home for kids. We figured we couldn't do any worse than what had already been done, but it's been a bumpy road. She's been with us 4 years now. Up and down the roller coaster goes. Mostly down right now. We plan to be leaving next week to move cross country, and of course that is naturally, understandably, her greatest fear.

I have to keep her at a safe distance. It's painful to feel that way about your own child, but I've worked hard to protect my kids from the crazy I grew up with.... she's made a lot of strides, but when the roller coaster heads down, we need to back off and protect the boys from it.

Actually, we had one teen we couldn't reach as foster parents, and as I get to know my daughter better, I think this girl might have been BPD too. My husband and I do not like conflict, yelling, etc. The more outrageous this little girl's behavior became, the more we would get calm, and quiet, and try to reason with her, try and reassure her that we loved her, and we were here for her, and she had a permanent place in our family if she wanted that and was willing to work for it.

She was used to being able to manipulate people, recreated abuse in two long-term foster homes (that had never had any prior allegations or incidents). She could really twist your gut. She had NO idea how to get us to engage with anger... she finally gave up and got really depressed and withdrawn. When her psychologist called saying she was worried but couldn't say why, we had her placed in a group home. We as foster parents had no legal authority to take her razor, belts, shoe laces, she needed to be someplace where she could not take her own life. I hated doing that. We mostly took kids destined for group homes and got them to where they could be successfully placed. I hated not being able to find a way to reach her. I've learned a lot with my daughter that I wish I knew then. With borderlines, you have to learn new ways, you have to be more logical, you have to develop this outer Mr. Spock..... Otherwise they take you down the rabbit hole with them.

BPD has been enough of a learning curve. I hope it's my last experience with complicated mental health diagnoses. :)

Ahhhhh... then again, it probably won't. When our younger kids are older, we'll probably go back to therapeutic foster care. We had a 7 year gap between our first and our second and third after fertility issues. I just can't bring older kids with issues into the family. Our kids need to be stable, on the right track, close to heading off to college, and then maybe we can start looking at taking in tweens or very early teens. Then the alphabet soup begins again I'm sure.

human
08-24-2010, 02:03 PM
I don't know what the diagnosis is, but she is Marjorie Caldwell to me, Minnesota's most famous murderer (although she never got sentenced for murder)

She's 74 or so now and went to prison again a couple of years ago in Arizona.

She was adopted as an infant by a super super super rich woman.

Marge married a nice man and raised 5 children, a couple of which she pushed to excel in ice skating. By all accounts a good mother.

But she would spend money like a tsunami, getting the family in increasing debt, and the rich family having to bail her out continuously.

She was very charming and would lavish gifts on people she had just met.

She gets divorced from hubby number 1 and marries number 2, a ne'er do well.

She gets hubby number 2 to kill her mother. She's tried as an accessory, but gets off. Some jurors are so in love with her, they keep up correspondence with her for years.

She brings treats to the jurors and the attorneys during her trial.

Roger (hubby number 2) goes to prison, but never rats off Marge.

Marries number 3, but forgets to divorce 2. Number three is the hubby of a friend from ice skating days. Marge is thought to have offed his wife while she is in a nursing home.

The stories go on and on.

Marge wants and needs money, yet never marries a rich guy and she would have access to the wealthiest men across the US.

She is so charming that lots of people just love her.

She gives gifts to lots of people.

She spends money like water.

She is a good mother that drives her children to excel, doing things such as buying hundreds of outfits for her children in skating competitions. Parents feel that she did things to make the other kids fail such as dull their skate blades, but it's just a feeling.

She doesn't start her killing spree until her late 30's.

BTW, the Eckers could feel that they were being used.

People know it. They just may not know the name to put to it.

PDXMom
08-24-2010, 02:30 PM
I know nothing of that one.... only have the misfortune to know about BPD because the daughter I placed for adoption at birth (who was subsequently kicked out by her adoptive parents and moved in with us) has that diagnosis.

We've been a therapeutic foster home for kids. We figured we couldn't do any worse than what had already been done, but it's been a bumpy road. She's been with us 4 years now. Up and down the roller coaster goes. Mostly down right now. We plan to be leaving next week to move cross country, and of course that is naturally, understandably, her greatest fear.

I have to keep her at a safe distance. It's painful to feel that way about your own child, but I've worked hard to protect my kids from the crazy I grew up with.... she's made a lot of strides, but when the roller coaster heads down, we need to back off and protect the boys from it.

Actually, we had one teen we couldn't reach as foster parents, and as I get to know my daughter better, I think this girl might have been BPD too. My husband and I do not like conflict, yelling, etc. The more outrageous this little girl's behavior became, the more we would get calm, and quiet, and try to reason with her, try and reassure her that we loved her, and we were here for her, and she had a permanent place in our family if she wanted that and was willing to work for it.

She was used to being able to manipulate people, recreated abuse in two long-term foster homes (that had never had any prior allegations or incidents). She could really twist your gut. She had NO idea how to get us to engage with anger... she finally gave up and got really depressed and withdrawn. When her psychologist called saying she was worried but couldn't say why, we had her placed in a group home. We as foster parents had no legal authority to take her razor, belts, shoe laces, she needed to be someplace where she could not take her own life. I hated doing that. We mostly took kids destined for group homes and got them to where they could be successfully placed. I hated not being able to find a way to reach her. I've learned a lot with my daughter that I wish I knew then. With borderlines, you have to learn new ways, you have to be more logical, you have to develop this outer Mr. Spock..... Otherwise they take you down the rabbit hole with them.

BPD has been enough of a learning curve. I hope it's my last experience with complicated mental health diagnoses. :)

Ahhhhh... then again, it probably won't. When our younger kids are older, we'll probably go back to therapeutic foster care. We had a 7 year gap between our first and our second and third after fertility issues. I just can't bring older kids with issues into the family. Our kids need to be stable, on the right track, close to heading off to college, and then maybe we can start looking at taking in tweens or very early teens. Then the alphabet soup begins again I'm sure.

I never cease to be amazed at the wonderful, selfless things the people on this forum do for others. Rnmif, what a tough path you've taken, and I imagine you've made the world a lot easier for your young charges. If I had a hat, it would be off to you!

rnmif
08-24-2010, 02:33 PM
BTW, the Eckers could feel that they were being used.

People know it. They just may not know the name to put to it.

I wish I had something more damning to go with what they said. Last time we went to go visit my husband's parents, they staged an "intervention" because he is no longer a Christian (they are extremeist Christians, missionaries, some of their friends were banned from the country they served in).

Because they are missionaries (and give their children's inheritance to any new Christian they admire, and then complain loudly when those same Christians move on when the income stops) they have their loyal followers. My husband and I have been struggling under tremendous burdens, but have done so on our own, we have rarely asked for help, and when we did, it was denied, unless we chose to follow their specific brand of faith.

Issues like rare diseases, autism, cancer take their toll, physically, emotionally and financially. We've been so busy trying to keep our heads above water we don't really spend much time with family. We don't know our neighbors. I take my kids to church when I am physically able, when my health has been at it's worst, sometimes I was not. We have a few close friends who have been there for us through thick and thin. Other than that, we don't have many people we are close to.

My husband's family notices that we don't come very often, but they do not notice that every vacation we've taken over the last 15 years has been to see them. That we have not taken our kids to any of the places they'd like to go, because we feel that it is important for his parents to see their Grandchildren. They choose instead to treat strangers children better.

They have benefitted from my husband's Grandfather's financial support, have had no significant challenges in their lives. Their children grew up in boarding school. Thus they have had the time and resources to grow a collection of fans we have not had the luxury of matching.

Who do you think would come off better in a court of law, or the court of public opinion?

Circumstantial evidence doesn't carry much weight with me, because we never know the whole circumstance, and we've never walked a mile in the other person's shoes.

angelswatchoverthem
08-24-2010, 02:40 PM
I don't think everyone else in this case is exactly perfect either, seems they have all had their "issues", of previous relationships for whatever reason, otherwise they would still all be married to the first person they married initially. I just wonder sometimes at all of the biased focus on one person? Maybe some of the others have skeletons in their closet too, just that they haven't been exposed as much for anything like that as TH has been. We really don't know much at all.

Aedrys
08-24-2010, 02:51 PM
I wish I had something more damning to go with what they said. Last time we went to go visit my husband's parents, they staged an "intervention" because he is no longer a Christian (they are extremeist Christians, missionaries, some of their friends were banned from the country they served in).

Because they are missionaries (and give their children's inheritance to any new Christian they admire, and then complain loudly when those same Christians move on when the income stops) they have their loyal followers. My husband and I have been struggling under tremendous burdens, but have done so on our own, we have rarely asked for help, and when we did, it was denied, unless we chose to follow their specific brand of faith.

Issues like rare diseases, autism, cancer take their toll, physically, emotionally and financially. We've been so busy trying to keep our heads above water we don't really spend much time with family. We don't know our neighbors. I take my kids to church when I am physically able, when my health has been at it's worst, sometimes I was not. We have a few close friends who have been there for us through thick and thin. Other than that, we don't have many people we are close to.

My husband's family notices that we don't come very often, but they do not notice that every vacation we've taken over the last 15 years has been to see them. That we have not taken our kids to any of the places they'd like to go, because we feel that it is important for his parents to see their Grandchildren. They choose instead to treat strangers children better.

They have benefitted from my husband's Grandfather's financial support, have had no significant challenges in their lives. Their children grew up in boarding school. Thus they have had the time and resources to grow a collection of fans we have not had the luxury of matching.

Who do you think would come off better in a court of law, or the court of public opinion?

Circumstantial evidence doesn't carry much weight with me, because we never know the whole circumstance, and we've never walked a mile in the other person's shoes.

ITA. Beautiful post! The so called "friend" I used to have did have other friends and family that supported her. They would probably be shocked if she were accused of doing something against the law. I realized that she was a master of turning every situation into the other's fault and it was "oh poor victim me" when it came to her. She even had a disability she used to get what she wanted, and to get people on her side. It was disgusting.

I think TH is very much the same. She's got the people she's conned on her side, and she's got the people she's used and discarded on the other. And guess which side is bigger? She's not one of those loners that stick out like a sore thumb. Instead, She ingratiated herself into Kyron's school and had a social life such that those loyal friends and family aren't ready to consider that she might have murdered a child. Doesn't mean that she didn't do it. All the time you hear about "pillars of the community" that did horrible things to other people.

I never would have known about people like that until I dealt with one personally. It sounds like she's NPD to me, maybe even sociopathic, kind of like Casey Anthony, but a lot better at socializing and making friends. It's not just anti-social people that do crimes. People who can make friends and act like good moms can also do crimes as well.

rnmif
08-24-2010, 02:54 PM
I never cease to be amazed at the wonderful, selfless things the people on this forum do for others. Rnmif, what a tough path you've taken, and I imagine you've made the world a lot easier for your young charges. If I had a hat, it would be off to you!

Ah, PDXMom, don't give me too much credit. There's an element of healing my own wounds there, which is an entirely selfish motive. :)

And we foster parents get more than our share of accolades, deserved or not.
:banghead:

I think my husband and I make an interesting team. He grew up in MK school, with several parents. He had a whole flock of June and Ward Cleavers raising him. I.... grew up in inner city Los Angeles. It is as bad as you think....

He is a lot of the reason I was able to face my own wounds and heal them, and he is as passionate about helping these kids (and their families, I contract with a mentoring program where foster parents help parents on the path to reunification, which is an awesome program!) as I am. I never cease to be amazed at what we went through when my daughter moved in. She lived with us for nearly 2 years, and it was an intense ride. She loves me, needs me to love her, but he loves her, and she loves and respects him as well. Often he can reach her in ways that none of her other parents can, because there's no baggage, no loaded relationship.

I've known a lot of step-parents, but I don't know too many who work as hard, put up with as much, or love as fiercely or protectively as he does.

I got really lucky to find a guy like him. When I look at the divorce rate for any one of the issues we have faced, the fact that we are still together is to me, amazing, and speaks to his strength, and the strength he helped me find within myself. He believed in me before I could. :)

We love being foster parents. It's never the kids that are the problem. The lack of resources, the bureaucracy, the tussles with parents who themselves are probably borderlines, they get tiring, you get worn down, but the kids....

For all the ups and downs, they make your heart sing. When you see a kid who has no hope become strong, wise, balanced, ready to take on what comes, and you see how they learn to deal with the issues in their lives..... It is a gift to be a part of the team that helps put these families back together again, stronger, better, healthier....

Most foster parents don't make it past a year. The system is still having a hard time learning that maybe it can change and adapt to be more... user friendly? But the key really is having a safe and sane way to blow off steam so you can get back to the job at hand. It's kind of like newborns. The sleep, fatigue, noise, confusion all melts away when you see that first smile, look at that angelic sleeping face. It's not that raising a newborn isn't hard, it's that the highs are so high that the lows kind of seem insignificant in comparison. :)

It's less a testament to me and my husband and speaks more to how wonderful the experience can be.

BTW, there are lots of opportunities in foster care, respite care, mentoring, volunteering. When we lived in Southern California there was this huge church that took these kids under their wing, and did Christmas presents for every child in a very large county, a huge Christmas party, summer camp, etc.

There are the school supplies drives, coats, gifts... There are foster parents who do this as a business. It's a controversial topic, I'll go on record as saying I'm not a fan of what some term "professional parenting". But it's a spectrum that goes from suboptimal to horrific. We did respite care for the family of Maryah Ponce, and when I saw the foster family name on the news that night I about lost my mind. We got to the point we would not watch the kids anymore, because we felt we were enabling behavior we shouldn't. Of course now I regret not continuing, because I wonder if I had been able to get her siblings to tell me something, if they would have been moved.

These organizations that support foster families with gifts and supplies are a blessing, both for the ones that have meager resources, and the ones who tend to cheap out... It's nice for these kids to be able to hold their heads up with nice school supplies, decent, clean, well fitting clothes, and other little luxuries that help them blend in. They have enough burdens, they don't need to stand out like a sore thumb.

Ack. Sorry. I'm not passionate about foster care or anything.... :)

rnmif
08-24-2010, 02:59 PM
ITA. Beautiful post! The so called "friend" I used to have did have other friends and family that supported her. They would probably be shocked if she were accused of doing something against the law. I realized that she was a master of turning every situation into the other's fault and it was "oh poor victim me" when it came to her. She even had a disability she used to get what she wanted, and to get people on her side. It was disgusting.

I think TH is very much the same. She's got the people she's conned on her side, and she's got the people she's used and discarded on the other. And guess which side is bigger? She's not one of those loners that stick out like a sore thumb. Instead, She ingratiated herself into Kyron's school and had a social life such that those loyal friends and family aren't ready to consider that she might have murdered a child. Doesn't mean that she didn't do it. All the time you hear about "pillars of the community" that did horrible things to other people.

I never would have known about people like that until I dealt with one personally. It sounds like she's NPD to me, maybe even sociopathic, kind of like Casey Anthony, but a lot better at socializing and making friends. It's not just anti-social people that do crimes. People who can make friends and act like good moms can also do crimes as well.

Well, I guess spectacular cases of that are the cheerleader Mom who tried to hire a hit man for her super special snowflake daughter's rival, and the MySpace Mom who herself (or knew her kids were playing?) a boy who flirted with a girl and turned on her and she killed herself? Some people are just twisted. Perfectly capable of looking and acting normal but inside is this mass of self-centeredness.

I don't know. It's crazy. It's what makes these cases so hard. I've said before, I'll say again, you can't make sense of the senseless....

AbbieNormal
08-24-2010, 03:02 PM
I don't know if you are a professional in the field or not but this is one of the best descriptions I have read about Borderlines. Thank you.

Thats what I was thinking too, great post & thank you.

AbbieNormal
08-24-2010, 03:28 PM
No she isn't. In order to call oneself a psychologist, the person must be licensed and have a PhD or PsyD with the exception of some school psychologists with a MA., at least that's the case for Illinois. moo

Pat Brown has a masters in criminal justice. Her interest began when she rented a room in her home to a suspected murderer. There is an interesting video somewhere of Pat talking about how she became involved in profiling and how her career developed. moo

Jeez, kind of reminds me of Ann Rule working side by side with Ted Bundy and never suspecting a thing.
Pat's probably lucky she wasn't murdered herself (if he really was a murderer).

AbbieNormal
08-24-2010, 03:31 PM
Forgive me if I am wrong but I do not see those things as addictions to try to fill a void. They are anxiety releasing behaviors, especially in the case of self-injury. Most BPDs especially women have a history of childhood sexual abuse. Drugs and alcohol are used as a way of self-medicating.

I do think it is possible that TH could have had some kind of psychotic break. She seemed to be very perfectionistic and just could not keep up with all that she thought she should do. As she lets things go this would be very emotionally horrifying for her and it is possible that she started drinking heavily as a result to drown her feelings of not being worthy and low self-esteem.

I'd add an internet addiction, as well, JMO. Or at the very least a FB addiction, a need to let others know every single thing she was doing, etc.

AbbieNormal
08-24-2010, 03:35 PM
I also have a family member with this personality disorder. Recovery can only come with acceptance/acknowlegement of this "disease".

In terms of Terri, her void was fillled with her children & their activities.

Do we all remember the science fairs of our past where certain students won first prize even when it was known to all the parent's had done the project 99%?

I bet Terri was enfuriated when HER project did not win.

Renminiscent of days gone by.

When I was in school we always had to write reports on certain subjects, they had to have a cover sheet, plus a cover, etc and I remember many of my fellow students having reports that I am sure were done by their parents.

My folks made me do my own, darn it. (As a result, I love to do reports)

abbie

AbbieNormal
08-24-2010, 03:41 PM
Honestly I never understood all the diagnoses of borderline, psychopathy, narcissistic or sociopathy. All I really know about her is from her Facebook when it was open and a few shots of her on TV. When Kyron first went missing I looked up her Facebook and I had no red flags. A few casual remarks that may not have been the best in timing but nothing terrible. The only things that might send out alarms were the DUI, the seeming inconsistencies about how long she knew DY (which may be honest mistakes), her denial of problems when KH left and the cheating her ex husband suposedly talked about, which may or may not be true. Nothing that screams psychiatric issues really. She may be depressed judging by the physical changes in the last 8 months. Maybe domestic pressures if her husband was cheating but again not confirmed.
If she harmed Kyron I honestly can't figure it out. None of her "friends" or people that knew her have come out and talked about anything other then her being a loving mother. No one (other then KH, DY and TY) has turned against her. I would think if she were displaying signs of mental illness someone would have told the media. They would eat that up.
I have to say I highly doubt the murder for hire thing. Doesn't really make sense and why wouldn't he go to the police at the time? If it were true I agree that probably shows something is wrong with her but I just don't know.
The thing that is scary is IF she did this and there were no warning signs at all, it makes us all feel vulnerable because ANYONE could snap and we'd never see it coming. Our own spouses could be capable of something bad if she did that and no one saw it coming. Until people close to her talk about her behavior I have to believe that this just came out of the blue and no one suspected it could happen. Frightening.

JMO I don't discount the MFH plot just because the landscaper didn't report it. Maybe a sexual liason took place and he was embarassed, or was afraid his wife/ girlfriend would find out, etc. JMO

abbie

Haeve
08-24-2010, 03:52 PM
I don't think everyone else in this case is exactly perfect either, seems they have all had their "issues", of previous relationships for whatever reason, otherwise they would still all be married to the first person they married initially. I just wonder sometimes at all of the biased focus on one person? Maybe some of the others have skeletons in their closet too, just that they haven't been exposed as much for anything like that as TH has been. We really don't know much at all.

Well, I'd say feel free to start an armchair psych thread on any of the other people, but right now we're only allowed to sleuth DS and TH. Of all the people in this case, the only ones who really get my psychological hinky meter going (and believe me I know hinky--see above) are TH and DS's ex-BF. And by "hinky" I mean "serious psychological problems". (I might include MC but rather than "hinky", he sets off my "doofus-meter". ;) ) I do realize that we're going on just "tip of the iceberg" information about these people, but then, isn't this entire website kind of like that?

Everyone I know has made bad choices, had bad boundaries, had "issues" of one sort or another--addictions, dependency, attachment, anxiety, depression, you name it. But mostly they just end up hurting themselves. I can speak for myself here as well. And I would not hold up under such scrutiny as we have on this site.

I also have a theory about KH's personality that I've voiced on other threads but he's never raised my hinky meter. I know lots of people like him and they're all harmless. Meanwhile, TH reminds me of my mother and she is not harmless. At least not to those closest to her. JMHO, YMMV.

AbbieNormal
08-24-2010, 04:18 PM
Yes, as long as we looked "cute" to the outside world...Mom had done a good job. It's taken me many years to clearly see what my mother was truly all about...herself! Thank you for sharing!

My mother was the same way. When I figured it out on my own in the past 2 years (it's become worse with mild dementia) it really twisted my mind for quite a long time. I questioned almost every memory I had of my childhood. I mean, my head was messed up. For awhile I secretly hated my mom, then felt guilt over feeling that way, as I know my mother does love us all very much in her own way.
My Dad was always presented as "the bad one", because he was an alcoholic (a functional one, not a lay-around-the-house-drunk kind) and because he was not Christian. Or should I say he did not go to church with the rest of the family. None of us wanted to go but my mom, but he was the Bad Guy. All the things he did wrong were amplified by her to us. But nobody else was to know, all the family secrets were never revealed to my moms "coffee klatch", even tho those women ran their mouths about THEIR husbands.
Over the years growing up if we exhibited any signs of being like my Dad, she pointed it out to us as a bad thing.
The truth was, my Dad was an aeronautical intelligent engineer who worked for NASA for several years and was very "into" the space program. I idolized him. Yes, he was an alcoholoic. So was his dad and his grandfather, and so is my brother. The truth is, I was so turned off by religion because of my mom I don't step foot in church, although I believe in God. The truth is, I am terrified I have her traits myself and am constantly "checking myself" mentally to be sure I am not exhibiting signs of NPD.
When my Dad died in 2008 she was cruel, saying how he was never a good husband, etc in the midst of our grief, because they had been divorced for years so she figured that gave her reason/license to trash him at his memorial and afterwards. I tried to stay away from her right after he died, but unfortunately the following Sunday (at Church, of course) she twisted her ankle and broke it and had to stay off her ankle for 6 weeks, was in a cast, which made ME the one in charge of taking care of her, daily visits to her house, and more bad info regarding my Dad. I would tear up sometimes and say, "Mom, I miss Dad so much" and she would completely ignore me. I took care of him the last 3 years of his life. There was nobody I could "grieve to". Finally about 4 weeks into it I got in a big argument with her and told her she had pizzed off the wrong person as I was the one who was giving her her showers 4 x a week. I went home and called my oldest daughter and asked her to do it for me, I couldn't take it. Always the one grandkid that's always trying to win favor w/ my mom for some reason, she was happy to do it.
When you other posters learned or realized your mom had NPD, did it screw your head up too, or is it just me?

abbie

Beatrice
08-24-2010, 07:26 PM
IMO Terri is definitely an addictive personality. An Obsessive Compulsive in search of perfection. Her self worth comes from her doing for others...Being "perfect"

She obviously had secrets from Kaine. Her secret alcohol abuse, friendship with DeDe, boyfriend, etc.

I wonder if she had a secret shopping compulsion. Certain buys from EBay show this....Lots of books! Saving items from J for Kyron and from Kyron to baby K?

When she was married to 2nd husband/Ecker (sp?) they had a restaurant business and a storage unit business...I wonder if Terri had a secret storage unit/shed for her compulsive buying? A place to get away, get high, sleep, be with her "stuff", be her other self?

Desiree uses the word STASHED in terms of Kyron's location. Would it be located on Sauvie Island? The first cell ping area?

(Remember that Scott Peterson had a secret storage unit where he had his secret boat, phone, computer and made the cement anchors.)

human
08-24-2010, 07:33 PM
IMO Terri is definitely an addictive personality. An Obsessive Compulsive in search of perfection. Her self worth comes from her doing for others...Being "perfect"

She obviously had secrets from Kaine. Her secret alcohol abuse, friendship with DeDe, boyfriend, etc.

I wonder if she had a secret shopping compulsion. Certain buys from EBay show this....Lots of books! Saving items from J for Kyron and from Kyron to baby K?

When she was married to 2nd husband/Ecker (sp?) they had a restaurant business and a storage unit business...I wonder if Terri had a secret storage unit/shed for her compulsive buying? A place to get away, get high, sleep, be with her "stuff", be her other self?

Desiree uses the word STASHED in terms of Kyron's location. Would it be located on Sauvie Island? The first cell ping area?

(Remember that Scott Peterson had a secret storage unit where he had his secret boat, phone, computer and made the cement anchors.)

You know, that makes sense. It doesn't look like her clothing or home had a lot of stuff, but I haven't seen every room obviously. So, if she was spending money like water, what was it on?

Or she just had a secret bank account.

Beatrice
08-24-2010, 07:41 PM
All I can see is she kept a very tidy/organized home.
She liked to go to the gym & possibly "cheap" shop....for "stuff" possibly not in the home. Clothes, toys, arts & crafts things that she couldn't let Kaine know about...A compulsive hoarder? Who's "stuff" gives them comfort, an identity, one living in the past.

Even her new boyfriend was from "high school"

JMO.

Beatrice
08-24-2010, 08:05 PM
JMO I don't discount the MFH plot just because the landscaper didn't report it. Maybe a sexual liason took place and he was embarassed, or was afraid his wife/ girlfriend would find out, etc. JMO

abbie

Maybe he took it at the as a joke?

shelbar53
08-24-2010, 08:07 PM
Question for armchair psychiatrists.
How is Teri handling the self imposed isolation? No computer or cell phone. No shopping, going out to eat. Her lawyer must of really read her the riot act after that fiasco of sexting.

Is she realizing that she could be facing prison time and it will be worse in prison?

Haeve
08-24-2010, 08:33 PM
My mother was the same way. When I figured it out on my own in the past 2 years (it's become worse with mild dementia) it really twisted my mind for quite a long time. I questioned almost every memory I had of my childhood. I mean, my head was messed up. For awhile I secretly hated my mom, then felt guilt over feeling that way, as I know my mother does love us all very much in her own way.
My Dad was always presented as "the bad one", because he was an alcoholic (a functional one, not a lay-around-the-house-drunk kind) and because he was not Christian. Or should I say he did not go to church with the rest of the family. None of us wanted to go but my mom, but he was the Bad Guy. All the things he did wrong were amplified by her to us. But nobody else was to know, all the family secrets were never revealed to my moms "coffee klatch", even tho those women ran their mouths about THEIR husbands.
Over the years growing up if we exhibited any signs of being like my Dad, she pointed it out to us as a bad thing.<snip>

When you other posters learned or realized your mom had NPD, did it screw your head up too, or is it just me?

abbie

SBM

Except for the religion part, the part I snipped could be my family too. It's eerie how many unhappy families are alike. :confused:

I knew my mom was a narcissist but it didn't really hit home how much it affected me until last summer. I was a wreck for weeks and I questioned everything. I'm much better now and ready to move on. It helps that I've ceased contact with her. A while back she asked my brother "Why is Haeve mad at me?" :snort: It's so beyond "mad at her" I can't even tell you. I'm not angry, I'm just done.

revampz
08-24-2010, 09:06 PM
i think she is a perfectionist and a control freak....

one thing that bothers me though......we all know the science project was perfect and alot of work put into it......people have mentioned that Terri did it.....

I am sure I read that Kaine actually did the project!....(off to try and find this now)....i think he also is a perfectionist and control freak..

Beatrice
08-24-2010, 10:54 PM
When Terri came home & posted the science fair photo of Kyron & exhibit...She wrote that Kyron did it all by himself...And she only helped with suggestions of where things could be placed.

IMO Terri didn't receive the approval/compliments on her exhibit either at school or online.

Borderline Personalities can "snap" at the slightest rejection. If classes started at 10am...Why leave at 9am?

debs
08-24-2010, 11:03 PM
i think she is a perfectionist and a control freak....

one thing that bothers me though......we all know the science project was perfect and alot of work put into it......people have mentioned that Terri did it.....

I am sure I read that Kaine actually did the project!....(off to try and find this now)....i think he also is a perfectionist and control freak..

Kaine has stated at least twice that he helped Kyron with that exhibit.

AbbieNormal
08-25-2010, 01:14 AM
IMO Terri is definitely an addictive personality. An Obsessive Compulsive in search of perfection. Her self worth comes from her doing for others...Being "perfect"

She obviously had secrets from Kaine. Her secret alcohol abuse, friendship with DeDe, boyfriend, etc.

I wonder if she had a secret shopping compulsion. Certain buys from EBay show this....Lots of books! Saving items from J for Kyron and from Kyron to baby K?

When she was married to 2nd husband/Ecker (sp?) they had a restaurant business and a storage unit business...I wonder if Terri had a secret storage unit/shed for her compulsive buying? A place to get away, get high, sleep, be with her "stuff", be her other self?

Desiree uses the word STASHED in terms of Kyron's location. Would it be located on Sauvie Island? The first cell ping area?

(Remember that Scott Peterson had a secret storage unit where he had his secret boat, phone, computer and made the cement anchors.)


Hopefully LE has checked out the previous storage business and other storage units in the area.

SubtleGrace
08-25-2010, 06:18 AM
My mother was a sociopath. I and my younger two sisters are all borderlines. I have never been violent but I have had suicidal ideations and self-destructive tendancies. My younger sister has attempted suicide and has had more than two abusive boyfriend/husbands. The youngest, and imo suffered the most abuse, attacked me and choked me to the point of unconsciousness and then tried to drag me into her house when I neighbor saw and came over to help.

My point is this: my mother had never been formally diagnosed by any type of doctor or counselor or psychologist. My therapist and I dx'd her based on my many years of personal knowledge of my mothers behaviors and conversations.

I ended up marrying a narcissist at the age of 17 to get away from my mother. Go figure. He has never been formally dx'd either. Based on my observations and my therapist (psychologist) opinions, I would bet money I am right. Armchair pyschology? Perhaps. Maybe not so crazy if you consider that sometimes the armchair is in the living room of the objects house.

JMO and experience.

AbbieNormal
08-25-2010, 07:50 AM
My mother was a sociopath. I and my younger two sisters are all borderlines. I have never been violent but I have had suicidal ideations and self-destructive tendancies. My younger sister has attempted suicide and has had more than two abusive boyfriend/husbands. The youngest, and imo suffered the most abuse, attacked me and choked me to the point of unconsciousness and then tried to drag me into her house when I neighbor saw and came over to help.

My point is this: my mother had never been formally diagnosed by any type of doctor or counselor or psychologist. My therapist and I dx'd her based on my many years of personal knowledge of my mothers behaviors and conversations.

I ended up marrying a narcissist at the age of 17 to get away from my mother. Go figure. He has never been formally dx'd either. Based on my observations and my therapist (psychologist) opinions, I would bet money I am right. Armchair pyschology? Perhaps. Maybe not so crazy if you consider that sometimes the armchair is in the living room of the objects house.

JMO and experience.


Man, most of us have had messed up parents. I used to think my mom was perfect. Her NPD really became obvious when she started with very very slight dementia and got so involved w/ the church. My mom has an astounding amount of money in the bank and has a great income every month, she planned very well for her future. The winter my Dad died she told me she didn't have the $$ to buy the great grandkids (my grandchildren) anything, yet she spend untold hundreds on missionaries and her sunday school class and the little kids that attend sunday school. She "slipped" and mentioned all the crap she had bought and put together for them. I was just, my jaw hit the floor. This was during the time she had the broken ankle and I was waiting on her hand and foot while hearing what a loser my dad was, after he had just died.
She moved up here about 7 yrs ago from Va to be closer to her family, she said, as me, all my kids and grands, and my brother all live up here (my brother has left since then, but he lived here for several years) and for about the first year we visited her several times a week but every one of us has our own lives, I have a sick youngest daughter, we all had family drama, etc and Mom started making friends and getting involved in church, senior groups, crochet clubs, and of course every club she joined she made sure she eventually became the president or the one in charge or making all the decisions.. Pretty soon I was being told by all her friends what a wonderful woman she was, so giving, always thinking of others....really? I had one child who couldn't keep her utilities on, she couldn't get ahead of the bills for a long time, my mom knew she was struggling yet never offered to help. And I certainly couldn't help. And just a couple hundred bucks would have helped her get on top of it. I had 2 grandkids sleeping in a cold house that winter cos daughter couldn't afford gas all but one month, she had electric heaters they moved from room to room... My mom certainly had it, would have never missed that amount of money. None of us EVER ask her for help financially. EVER. Yet she handed my brother money left and right when he lived here. It was sickening. He didn't work the whole 7 years he lived here. Not a dang thing wrong with him.
When I was doing badly physically and financially after my client died this past Christmas and we only had our disability incomes to survive on, and here I was a new diabetic trying to eat the right food, etc. on top of everything else, I asked her if I could ask her church for some food (they have a huge pantry with a freezer full of meat, ppl donate all the time, looks like a mini grocery store,) church bulletins are always talking about it, saying if you know anyone in need..."our shelves are bulging"....I asked her if I could ask the church secretary if we could get some food, she said oh no way, that would be so embarassing for her, please go somewhere else....and that was the end of that. And she wonders why I visit so infrequently.
I actually put it all together from what I had read about NPD on Casey Anthony threads. I was never into psyche nursing so it wasn't really obvious to me for years. Now, I won't say I am "done" with her, but I will say when she gets old and decrepid (spelled wrong) my brother and sister better formulate a plan to get her to a nursing home or whatever cos I am OUT OF IT. I took care of my Dad for his final 3 years, they get mom!!!! And neither of them even live in this part of the country, my sister is out west and my brother is northern midwest. OH WELL!


PS sorry for the wordy post but sometimes ya just have to get it all out.... abbie

rnmif
08-25-2010, 01:30 PM
When you other posters learned or realized your mom had NPD, did it screw your head up too, or is it just me?

abbie

It's not just you. In fact, the DBT psychologist my daughter was seeing hesitated to diagnose her. I think he missed a lot, dismissed a lot, but I was in complete denial too initially. She's so naive sheltered little rich girl, that sometimes it's easy to gloss over some of the more glaring aspects of her... issues.

Her therapist obviously could not diagnose her adoptive mother, but his gut was telling him she likely was a borderline. The hypothesis was in part based on studies that seem to indicate that children of borderlines can echo borderline tendencies without meeting the diagnostic criteria themselves.

After my Granddaughter died, he couldn't deny it anymore, and she was finally officially diagnosed, but clearly her Mom has her own issues, far more severe and self-destructive than my daughter. She's just more skilled at putting up the pretty, deceptive facade.

Of course this is going to screw with your head. Just like growing up in a war zone, or being raped, or in any other way victimized.

Like... something grace (ack, sorry!) up there, I experienced suicidal ideation for years. My Mom died when my oldest son was a few months old, and I wanted to die for a long time. One day I realized that for all our issues, I missed her, it wasn't all bad, and she lived life to the (dysfunctional) fullest, and part of my grief was that she, who had such zest for life, and did great things for others (if not me) was gone, and my Dad, who I don't have much respect for, was alive, doing nothing but taking from others.

I realized I was being a selfish prat, and if I died, I was condemning my son to worse grief than what I was going through. That snapped me out of it.

It's one of the reasons I chose adoption for my daughter. I was an angry, hurting, messed up kid, and like hell was I going to subject her to any of that. And as much as I find it hard to accept what her parents did to her (because it was worse than anything I could have done) I wouldn't have been much better of a parent either. The great irony is I chose her parents because her adoptive Mom reminded me of the best of my Mom. I should have remembered my Mom was able to give shining first impressions too.... I might have made a better choice.

Abbie, it's perfectly normal for something like this to mess up your head. You've obviously worked hard to change the patterns in your life and make better choices than your Mother. It is interesting how many of us here had troubled early years... I think many of us know but for the grace of God... :(

I find the same thing among foster parents. There are those of us who take our pain and magnify it and explode onto others, and there are those of us for whom the only way to survive is to stand up and say, "not on my watch".

Big hugs to you (all of you!). Be proud. You are a survivor.

Beatrice
08-25-2010, 02:27 PM
Personality Disorder Test

http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv

Kimster
08-28-2010, 11:32 AM
In this video, the reporter asks Kaine and Desiree if they've noticed TH's confident air about her as she attended court this last week.

http://www.katu.com/home/video/101702718.html

Desiree feels that she is acting that way on the outside, but is scared on the inside because she never guessed Kyron's case would get this much attention.

Now to me, that sounds kinda like the thought pattern of a sociopath and then again not. They usually are confident inside and out and live for the day at hand. In other words, she would have walked into that court room confident the judge was going to rule in her favor and when it didn't happen, she would have been enraged that the judge was unfair and/or incompetent. I don't think a sociopath has fear, which is part of the problem.

I could be wrong about that. Thoughts?

debs
08-28-2010, 12:06 PM
In this video, the reporter asks Kaine and Desiree if they've noticed TH's confident air about her as she attended court this last week.

http://www.katu.com/home/video/101702718.html

Desiree feels that she is acting that way on the outside, but is scared on the inside because she never guessed Kyron's case would get this much attention.

Now to me, that sounds kinda like the thought pattern of a sociopath and then again not. They usually are confident inside and out and live for the day at hand. In other words, she would have walked into that court room confident the judge was going to rule in her favor and when it didn't happen, she would have been enraged that the judge was unfair and/or incompetent. I don't think a sociopath has fear, which is part of the problem.

I could be wrong about that. Thoughts?

Terri was on camera for all of about 30 seconds, combined. Going in, and coming out. I think perspective colors people's interpretations of things. I can't see anything other than Terri trying to get in and get out as quickly as possible. I'm sure Desiree's instincts are dictating to her how to interpret them, but it would be difficult to assign sociopathy to Terri because of Desiree's feelings about her. We can definitely believe she is not an unbiased bystander.

Morag
08-28-2010, 12:19 PM
Terri was on camera for all of about 30 seconds, combined. Going in, and coming out. I think perspective colors people's interpretations of things. I can't see anything other than Terri trying to get in and get out as quickly as possible. I'm sure Desiree's instincts are dictating to her how to interpret them, but it would be difficult to assign sociopathy to Terri because of Desiree's feelings about her. We can definitely believe she is not an unbiased bystander.

Just because she didn't go in there kickin' and screamin' and cryin' doesn't mean she felt confident. But she was able to hold her emotions intact enough to appear dignified.

Sherazhad
09-01-2010, 02:41 AM
I'm not convinced of the evidence we've seen against Terri, but if she is guilty, then I feel it was all about getting revenge against Kaine. Maybe this is why LE can't get through to her & I believe the only person who could is Kaine. If I was Kaine I wouldn't be able to stop myself from seeing Terri & demand to know where my child is. I feel that after all the time they've been apart she may just break if she's him again.
I know perhaps LE won't let this happen & maybe Kaine never wants to see her again, but if she is the key to finding Kyron it may be worth a try.

Sherbie
09-01-2010, 03:25 AM
I don't know, Sherazhad. He was in that house with her 24/7 for weeks. Surely, he confronted her time and again after she failed the LDTs. I can't imagine he wouldn't have.

I'm not so sure it's a revenge thing against Kaine. If she's involved, it may be just the simplest of all explanations and what usually is the case in these situations -- selfishness, wanting to be free to live her life the way she wanted and without anyone who didn't fit into her plan.

I just can't see someone taking care of a child that many years and then being able to harm them in any way, but of course it does happen (with both step and natural parents). My other thought is that if she did something to Kyron, it might've been because he learned about something she didn't want known.

I'm not completely convinced either, but I am suspicious that she at least holds some information that would help in finding Kyron. If she didn't break for the local LE, FBI and Kaine and Desiree before, I don't think she'd crack now even if Kaine could get near her (between her atty and RO, don't think he could).

Good idea for a discusison...ty for posting.

LadyL
09-01-2010, 06:53 AM
I don't think she'll crack for him. She will only reveal stuff that furthers her own agenda. I think the only time she'll let something slip is once she's already in prison. Until then, if her mouth moves, it's a lie. IMO.

Emeralgem
09-01-2010, 07:09 AM
I'm not convinced of the evidence we've seen against Terri, but if she is guilty, then I feel it was all about getting revenge against Kaine. Maybe this is why LE can't get through to her & I believe the only person who could is Kaine. If I was Kaine I wouldn't be able to stop myself from seeing Terri & demand to know where my child is. I feel that after all the time they've been apart she may just break if she's him again.
I know perhaps LE won't let this happen & maybe Kaine never wants to see her again, but if she is the key to finding Kyron it may be worth a try.


I respectfully disagree..No one can get through to a narcissistic sociopath.. Last thing KH should ever do is attempt to have any contact her..Only purpose it would serve would be to feed her EGO..JMHO

mmmagique
09-01-2010, 07:19 AM
*lol* I know I thanked everyone so far, but...that's because you ALL made some very good points!

This is a very interesting topic!

Sherazhad
09-01-2010, 08:09 AM
Desiree said she thought Terri took Kyron because of revenge, there are rumours floating around the web about why she is angry at him. Not sure if these are true so won't go into them, but I genuinely feel that Kaine is the only 1 who could get any info from Terri. I know he probably tried & tried with her before, but it's such a desparate situation. I couldn't imagine how hard it must be to be in that situation.

Tiki
09-01-2010, 08:19 AM
I respectfully disagree..No one can get through to a narcissistic sociopath.. Last thing KH should ever do is attempt to have any contact her..Only purpose it would serve would be to feed her EGO..JMHO

Wouldn't he be violating his own restraining order if he tried to contact her?


.

SunsetHeel
09-01-2010, 08:32 AM
The only way he could have an impact at this point is to recognize that the MFH "plot" if there is no proof, needs to be put aside, he should ask to have the retraining order lifted, he should agree mediation on the best interests of Baby K. Working through a third party to connect and establish a healthy basis for Baby K to have the support of both parents could lead to a less strained relationship between the two parents that should benefit their youngest child and the investigation into the circumstances surrounding Kyron's disappearance.

Emeralgem
09-01-2010, 08:34 AM
Wouldn't he be violating his own restraining order if he tried to contact her?


.

Yes, he would..And I should have added that to my post but was thinking more in line of reasons not to feed her EGO..JMHO

TxLady2
09-01-2010, 08:47 AM
Why are we so quick to diagnose her as a narcisstic sociopath, when we don't hear anything from her? I don't think I've ever heard her voice. Seems to me that those kind of folks don't shy away from the cameras and microphones... they want to be seen and heard. I don't think her EGO has anything to do with it or she would be speaking out in public and to anyone who would listen. From everything I've seen from her, she is shy and withdrawn... not the traits that a narcisstic sociopath displays at all.

ClueMeIn
09-01-2010, 08:47 AM
The only way he could have an impact at this point is to recognize that the MFH "plot" if there is no proof, needs to be put aside, he should ask to have the retraining order lifted, he should agree mediation on the best interests of Baby K. Working through a third party to connect and establish a healthy basis for Baby K to have the support of both parents could lead to a less strained relationship between the two parents that should benefit their youngest child and the investigation into the circumstances surrounding Kyron's disappearance.

I don't think a child needs a parent like Terri, in their life!! That would be even worse for K!

Emeralgem
09-01-2010, 08:50 AM
Desiree said she thought Terri took Kyron because of revenge, there are rumours floating around the web about why she is angry at him. Not sure if these are true so won't go into them, but I genuinely feel that Kaine is the only 1 who could get any info from Terri. I know he probably tried & tried with her before, but it's such a desparate situation. I couldn't imagine how hard it must be to be in that situation.

BOTTOM LINE.. IMHO..People need to quit making excuses for the reasons WHY TMH may have done something to Kyron...Her being angry with KH, DY or whoever is no reason to take out her revenge on an innocent child..And IF she thnks it does she has a warped sick mind and is a coward to boot.JMHO

Emeralgem
09-01-2010, 08:58 AM
Why are we so quick to diagnose her as a narcisstic sociopath, when we don't hear anything from her? I don't think I've ever heard her voice. Seems to me that those kind of folks don't shy away from the cameras and microphones... they want to be seen and heard. I don't think her EGO has anything to do with it or she would be speaking out in public and to anyone who would listen. .

Shy and withdrawn? I don't think so...Woman is cold as ice...
And she is speaking out to people...Those she thinks she can manipulate..And has been since day one.... I maintain my stance she is a narcissistic sociopath...She fits the criteria....JMHO

mmmagique
09-01-2010, 09:18 AM
Why are we so quick to diagnose her as a narcisstic sociopath, when we don't hear anything from her? I don't think I've ever heard her voice. Seems to me that those kind of folks don't shy away from the cameras and microphones... they want to be seen and heard. I don't think her EGO has anything to do with it or she would be speaking out in public and to anyone who would listen. From everything I've seen from her, she is shy and withdrawn... not the traits that a narcisstic sociopath displays at all.

Shrinking violets do not enter body building contests, sext people they just met, (right after their stepson goes missing no less) or drive cherry red convertables. (yes, I know it was a gift, but there was probably some discussion beforehand about her taste in cars.)

BetteDavisEyes
09-01-2010, 10:29 AM
Kaine has said very little about Terri in various interviews, and what he has said is very superficial and without emotion. It's been Desiree who has spoken out with certainty of Terri's involvement, along with some very negative things about the woman herself.

It is probably wise for Kaine to say as little about Terri as possible given the pending divorce. Why make things any worse than they already are by bad-mouthing your about-to-be ex in the media? I don't think there would be anything positive to come out of a public plea from Kaine to Terri in an effort to locate his boy. She would likely interpret the plea as desperation on Kaine's part, and, for all we know, that's exactly what she wants. jmo

debs
09-01-2010, 10:43 AM
IF Terri had nothing to do with the disappearance of Kyron, Kaine will only further fuel her anger at him for having taken everything in her life away.

IF Terri had something to do with the disappearance of Kyron, Kaine will only further fuel her anger at him for (insert dumb excuse for taking a child here).

Kaine laid the groundwork for no contact. There should be no contact.

Openmyeyes
09-01-2010, 10:44 AM
The phrase "Still waters run deep", seems to describe Kaine, IMO and perhaps, it would not be in his best interest to get near Teri, after all this time. I think he is much better off focusing on all the positive things regarding Kyron, work with LE, protect his beautiful baby girl and eat (he's losing too much weight).

Cajun Girl
09-01-2010, 10:46 AM
I am reminded of a favorite saying, "Why stand in front of a fire hydrant and ask for lemonaide."

With all due respect to a very valid question, Sherazhad, IMHO TMH talking to anyone she finds 'against her' is the last thing on her mind. At this moment it would appear she values her freedom more than anything else (and that includes paving the way to see baby K).

Like you I rack my brain to figure out what, who, something, anything that would encourage this woman to speak the truth.

Where are you angel?

SuziQ
09-01-2010, 11:07 AM
Great topic! IMO, what Terri has done is probably not fixable or undoable. The only thing Terri stands to gain by telling what she did to Kyron is a prison cell. At best a prison cell, at worst LWOP or the DP. I don't think she'll tell Kaine anything.

oceanblueeyes
09-01-2010, 11:24 AM
I'm not convinced of the evidence we've seen against Terri, but if she is guilty, then I feel it was all about getting revenge against Kaine. Maybe this is why LE can't get through to her & I believe the only person who could is Kaine. If I was Kaine I wouldn't be able to stop myself from seeing Terri & demand to know where my child is. I feel that after all the time they've been apart she may just break if she's him again.
I know perhaps LE won't let this happen & maybe Kaine never wants to see her again, but if she is the key to finding Kyron it may be worth a try.

I think Kaine is the least likely person Terri would ever open up to....

Like Desiree said, Terri is very angry about something and imo it is all about the anger she feels toward Kaine. I sure would like to know what it is about.

IMO

STEADFAST
09-01-2010, 11:29 AM
I don't see Kaine getting through to Terri.

If she's involved in either or both crimes -- Kyron's disappearance and/or the MFH plot -- well, those would have occurred when Kaine had daily contact with her. I don't see her being more open with him now than she was then. If she's not involved, then she would have nothing to open up about.

mmmagique
09-01-2010, 12:03 PM
Unless she really wanted to sock it to him...by telling what his son's last words were, and what he experienced in his last moments.

If she's extremely vindictive, and wants to break him forever, I could see her doing that.

Billylee
09-01-2010, 12:12 PM
I think TH's lawyer has told her not to talk to ANYONE. She's already told LE what she wants them to know, whether it is true or not. Whatever that is. She has nothing more to say at this point. I also think that TH feels persecuted by KH & DY anyway, so I don't think she'd talk to them if she could. (And I'm not saying she shouldn't be persecuted by them either, I'm just saying that's how I think she feels, whether she's involved or not in Kyron's disappearance.)

cluciano63
09-01-2010, 12:25 PM
Kaine put a lot of things out there about Terri, with regards to her alleged PPD, drinking, possible over-medicating herself, her strictness about Kyron, nothing flattering, in other words. I doubt very much Terri is in a frame of mind to ease Kaine's worries. Both Desiree and Kaine, in my opinion, have said things that could only serve to alienate her and make her far less likely to come forward, confess, offer information, etc. if she has it.

craftybatchy
09-01-2010, 01:37 PM
Shrinking violets do not enter body building contests, sext people they just met, (right after their stepson goes missing no less) or drive cherry red convertables. (yes, I know it was a gift, but there was probably some discussion beforehand about her taste in cars.)

They do if there is clinical evidence to support a dx of Bipolar Disorder. I am loathe to play the game of armchair diagnosis, but ....

Sexual Dis-inhibition - (Sexting, alleged overtures made towards landscaper).

Excessive Verbosity - (Frequent, *wordy* emails sent to DHY, reported *chattiness* with others she encountered).

Attention Seeking Behaviors - (Cherry Red Convertible, Body Building).

Grandiose Plans - (MFH, Alleged Abduction).

Risk Taking - (Impaired Driving, Sexting.)

Inability to Maintain Gainful Employment - (Despite being well educated, TH had difficulty seeking and maintaining employment in a relevant field).

Fractured Interpersonal Relationships - (History of Divorce x 2, now 3).

Rapid Changes in Body Mass & Appearance - (BPD patients often fluctuate between states of near obesity and extremely low body fat. Pictures of TH taken over the years suggest a pattern of weight gain/disorganized personal care and excessive attention paid to physical appearance/rapid weight loss).

Much has been said about the possibility of TH having NPD. There is this notion that it is much easier associate some sort of criminal culpability with NPD. The public wants someone, somewhere to be responsible for this. Casting TH as an individual with NPD increases the probability (in our own minds) that she could be culpable.

Alternatively, an un-medicated (or incorrectly medicated) individual with BPD would be less likely to face criminal conviction for the crimes of which TH is a de facto suspect. While Houze might have a difficult time successfully arguing an insanity defense, he could be use the premise of BPD as a mitigating factor during the sentencing phase.

JMO.

KariKae
09-01-2010, 02:32 PM
She hates Kaine enough to have him killed.

He took Baby K and she has not seen her for months.

I think Kaine is about the last person who could through to her.

Sherbie
09-01-2010, 03:10 PM
The only way he could have an impact at this point is to recognize that the MFH "plot" if there is no proof, needs to be put aside, he should ask to have the retraining order lifted, he should agree mediation on the best interests of Baby K. Working through a third party to connect and establish a healthy basis for Baby K to have the support of both parents could lead to a less strained relationship between the two parents that should benefit their youngest child and the investigation into the circumstances surrounding Kyron's disappearance.

Even if the MFH plot were put aside, there is still the fact that he believes TH is involved in Kyron's disappearance. Don't know about anyone else, but no way in hell would I let my child around someone I believed had caused harm to another of my children.

Since Kaine truly believes TH is involved, he would be remiss not to use the MFH plot (and anything else he possibly could) to keep her away from his daughter. I certainly would!

I am not passing judgment on TH's guilt, but rather saying that I think from Kaine's perspective, he's right to do whatever he can to be sure TH doesn't have access to the baby. He can't put her safety at peril as a bargaining chip to possibly get info from TH. She would have even less reason to tell anything if she got some sort of custody with the baby.

Sherazhad
09-01-2010, 03:18 PM
Trying to find reasons for why Terri may have done this is completely different to excusing her behaviour. In no way is anyone suggesting it's ok to hurt Kyron because she's mad at Kaine. Understanding Terri's motivations can give some clues as to what happened. I don't think it's as cut & dried as anyone being a sociopath or evil, real people are not black & white, we are all shades of grey.
Even if Terri didn't confess to abducting Kyron, she may unwittingly give clues as to what happened. From Terri's emails, she seems the type who likes to offload her personal problems & get the support of her friends. I wonder who she is talking to now, I think her friends are now keeping their distance, now the spotlight is shining on them

SmoothOperator
09-01-2010, 05:29 PM
I respectfully disagree..No one can get through to a narcissistic sociopath.. Last thing KH should ever do is attempt to have any contact her..Only purpose it would serve would be to feed her EGO..JMHO

ITA and wanted to add that Kaine is the very one whom she targeted to have killed in the MFH plot. So along the same lines as what Emeralgem has said not only would it feed her ego, but wouldn't be one bit surprised with the sociopathic behaviours she has displayed that she wouldn't be playing games with his head and emotions causing only further damage to a man IMO that she resents and despises.

Not in a 1000 years do I think she would give Kaine the answers that he so desperately needs. IMO that quite possibly was her entire motive for "disappearing" Kyron[to hurt Kaine in the deepest way possible]and IMO she feels completely justified in what she has done and for causing this unbearable pain for Kaine. It's all Kaine's fault that this happened. If he had not cheated on her[who knows for sure if he did BUT ALL THAT MATTERS IS THAT TERRI BELIEVES HE DID]. If he had not hurt her then she woudn't have had to "disappear" Kyron. The good old blame game, if there is any conscience in Terri then I feel thats her way of taking ALL THE BLAME OFF OF HERSELF.
Becasuse we all know Terri did NOT WANT TO do whats been done to Kyron. It's all Kaine's fault, HE MADE HER HAVE TO DO IT! :last sentence oozes sarcasm if it was not apparent:

wondering1
09-01-2010, 06:49 PM
IMO she feels completely justified in what she has done and for causing this unbearable pain for Kaine. It's all Kaine's fault that this happened. If he had not cheated on her[who knows for sure if he did BUT ALL THAT MATTERS IS THAT TERRI BELIEVES HE DID]. If he had not hurt her then she woudn't have had to "disappear" Kyron. The good old blame game, if there is any conscience in Terri then I feel thats her way of taking ALL THE BLAME OFF OF HERSELF.
Becasuse we all know Terri did NOT WANT TO do whats been done to Kyron. It's all Kaine's fault, HE MADE HER HAVE TO DO IT! :last sentence oozes sarcasm if it was not apparent:

sbm~

I'd take it even a step or two further. I think, if she truly is a sociopath, her thinking is that she hasn't done anything wrong. In her mind, whatever happened to Kyron is just the logical consequence of KH messing with her in whatever way she perceives that he did so. Or, is completely unrelated to KH and was done for some other reason that only TH will ever be able to fathom. jmoo

angelswatchoverthem
09-01-2010, 08:43 PM
IF TH did do the unthinkable to Kyron, for revenge against her husband Kaine, what kind of personality could even contemplate doing such a thing to an innocent helpless child? What category does that fit into? Kyron was just a victim of his circumstances, and if TH was the intelligent person that people claim her to be, then if she harmed Kyron she is nothing less than a Monster trying to cover her own behind, over giving this dear little boy's family closure as to what happened to him and his whereabouts in this horrible case. I don't know if she is guilty or not, but there certainly have been some eye opening things that have come out about what kind of person she is, that have roused people's suspicion of her!

angelswatchoverthem
09-01-2010, 08:46 PM
The fact of the matter is that adults do cheat on each other all the time, but it certainly doesn't culminate in their young children going missing!

Emeralgem
09-01-2010, 08:50 PM
They do if there is clinical evidence to support a dx of Bipolar Disorder. I am loathe to play the game of armchair diagnosis, but ....

Sexual Dis-inhibition - (Sexting, alleged overtures made towards landscaper).

Excessive Verbosity - (Frequent, *wordy* emails sent to DHY, reported *chattiness* with others she encountered).

Attention Seeking Behaviors - (Cherry Red Convertible, Body Building).

Grandiose Plans - (MFH, Alleged Abduction).

Risk Taking - (Impaired Driving, Sexting.)

Inability to Maintain Gainful Employment - (Despite being well educated, TH had difficulty seeking and maintaining employment in a relevant field).

Fractured Interpersonal Relationships - (History of Divorce x 2, now 3).

Rapid Changes in Body Mass & Appearance - (BPD patients often fluctuate between states of near obesity and extremely low body fat. Pictures of TH taken over the years suggest a pattern of weight gain/disorganized personal care and excessive attention paid to physical appearance/rapid weight loss).

Much has been said about the possibility of TH having NPD. There is this notion that it is much easier associate some sort of criminal culpability with NPD. The public wants someone, somewhere to be responsible for this. Casting TH as an individual with NPD increases the probability (in our own minds) that she could be culpable.

Alternatively, an un-medicated (or incorrectly medicated) individual with BPD would be less likely to face criminal conviction for the crimes of which TH is a de facto suspect. While Houze might have a difficult time successfully arguing an insanity defense, he could be use the premise of BPD as a mitigating factor during the sentencing phase.

JMO.

When you speak of BPD are you speaking of Borderline Personality Disorder or Bi-Polar Disorder?

I would think IF she was really diagnosed at one time as having PPD she would have been evaluated at that time to determine IF she was Bi-Polar or not.

angelswatchoverthem
09-01-2010, 08:56 PM
And another thing is that TH cheated with Kaine initially, did she forget that, so who is she to cast dispersion on anyone else? And what ever did DY do to her,Kyron was after all not TH's biological child, she was in a position of trust to do right by this child, and where was there any compassion for Kyron's mother, and other family members on DY's family's side? He had another family i'm sure that loved him very much and she had no right to do anything to Kyron. If she did do something to Kyron then she does deserve nothing less than the DP.

angelswatchoverthem
09-01-2010, 09:02 PM
I'm sorry i just can't fathom anyone wanting to hurt a defenseless child to satisfy their own ego or illness, but i guess it happens all the time:(

craftybatchy
09-01-2010, 09:04 PM
When you speak of BPD are you speaking of Borderline Personality Disorder or Bi-Polar Disorder?

I would think IF she was really diagnosed at one time as having PPD she would have been evaluated at that time to determine IF she was Bi-Polar or not.

My apologies for not clarifying. I refer specifically to Bi-Polar Disorder.

Again, this is not my specific area of practice so I tread carefully in making an armchair/net based dx.

OneLove
09-01-2010, 10:22 PM
My apologies for not clarifying. I refer specifically to Bi-Polar Disorder.

Again, this is not my specific area of practice so I tread carefully in making an armchair/net based dx.

I have worked with teenage female bipolars and borderline personality disorders from a social services position, not diagnostically. But several close friends do diagnose and treat professionally and have told me that it is fairly common these days to diagnose bipolar when the real diagnosis is borderline personality disorder. According to them, this is partly due to insurance regulations which favor coverage for bipolar, and partly due to the fact that borderlines are often way scary people who deny and deflect their diagnosis to the last breath and seek vengeance with a cold, hard, destructive passion. Many practitioners "offload" Borderlines by telling them their issues are "beyond" the practitioner's expertise, please seek help elsewhere. You see many of these folks in the national news after they have shot everyone in their workplaces (or their neighbors, etc.), thinking people were 'conspiring' against them or 'judging' them unfairly. Yeah, that'll teach those coworkers/neighbors to think they're "off"....

I have missed the news about exactly how Terri and Kaine first met. I am wondering if Terri "went after him" with gusto while his wife was pregnant and very ill. What a HUGE lack of empathy for a human being that deserves kindness and empathy, if even just during the pregnancy and postpartum period. Sheesh. Nice person? I have a hard time calling it that way. If she was capable of THAT, I personally would NEVER have trusted her with my life or family. HUGE red flag....

JBean
09-01-2010, 10:27 PM
not too mention bipolar is difficult to diagnose and can be confused with other disorders.
schizoaffective-bipolar type and bipolarI w/psychotic features are pretty similar.Other things can mimic each other and without a history and consistent care it all can be tough to diagnose. Drugs can bring on bipolar features, but once the drugs stop the manifestations can go away. But drug abuse and bipolar and/or shizoaffective can be very closely intertwined.

OneLove
09-01-2010, 10:53 PM
not too mention bipolar is difficult to diagnose and can be confused with other disorders.
schizoaffective-bipolar type and bipolarI w/psychotic features are pretty similar.Other things can mimic each other and without a history and consistent care it all can be tough to diagnose. Drugs can bring on bipolar features, but once the drugs stop the manifestations can go away. But drug abuse and bipolar and/or shizoaffective can be very closely intertwined.

True, true! I have a family member with Bipolar I/psychotic features and the more I read about schizoaffective-bipolar, the more I walk the fence about her diagnosis. What a difficult set of problems for everyone involved.

ThoughtFox
09-02-2010, 01:32 AM
Whatever her disorder, I think it's clear that she was capable of things that most people wouldn't dream of doing.

Murder is not a normal thing to contemplate.

And because I believe that sociopaths don't love anyone, it's not hard for me to think she could harm Kyron. That's why I don't feel she "stashed" him like a pound of tea in some safe house. I think she got him out of her way without regard for the consequences.

debs
09-02-2010, 01:48 AM
Whatever her disorder, I think it's clear that she was capable of things that most people wouldn't dream of doing.

We have no proof of what she was capable of.


And because I believe that sociopaths don't love anyone, it's not hard for me to think she could harm Kyron. That's why I don't feel she "stashed" him like a pound of tea in some safe house. I think she got him out of her way without regard for the consequences.

We have no diagnosis that she is a sociopath. In fact, sociopaths love plenty of other people. Many operate out of that love for the other person, bassakwards as it might be. I just don't see Terri, finally finding the niche she sought in life, taking it out on this little boy when it goes FUBAR. I would sooner put money into the MFH plot before I would think she harmed Kyron.

In fact, makes me wonder when exactly did Kaine become aware of this MFH plot, and when did he let LE know about it.

Black Frost
09-02-2010, 03:36 AM
sbm~

I think, if she truly is a sociopath, her thinking is that she hasn't done anything wrong. In her mind, whatever happened to Kyron is just the logical consequence of... whatever... she perceives... as necessary to effect her desired reality. Or, is completely unrelated to KH and was done for some other reason that only TH will ever be able to fathom.

SBI&ABM

I agree with your assessment of her. It's why I lean toward the latter scenario you suggest in the quote above.

Even prior to Kyron's disappearance, I think theirs was a dead or at least decaying marriage that provided fertile ground for legitimate grievances (large and small) to accumulate and be felt by both of them. IOW, there was plenty of anger and resentment to go around and we don't need to work that hard to find reasons why she may have hated her husband.

It's just that given the particular personality cocktail that she appears to have (to me), a motive based on anger or revenge toward her husband isn't even required for her to justify what many think she likely did to his child. I think this child simply collided with a more desirable reality Terri had envisioned for herself.

Donjeta
09-02-2010, 05:20 AM
IMO, many if not most people who end up murdering, kidnapping or otherwise hurting defenceless little children according to a plan are probably beyond the point of being able to be got through. If the cruelty of what they did didn't occur to them or didn't register as important enough to avoid doing it when they were planning the deed it is (IMO) unlikely that compassion and empathy would play a bigger role in their decisions after the evil deed, when they can't turn back any more and have got more to lose, their freedom or even their life.

nervous_nellie
09-02-2010, 05:35 AM
IMO, many if not most people who end up murdering, kidnapping or otherwise hurting defenceless little children according to a plan are probably beyond the point of being able to be got through. If the cruelty of what they did didn't occur to them or didn't register as important enough to avoid doing it when they were planning the deed it is (IMO) unlikely that compassion and empathy would play a bigger role in their decisions after the evil deed, when they can't turn back any more and have got more to lose, their freedom or even their life.

thanx donjeta for this - very well put, this is what i have been feeling about th but unable to get it together to post it ... so, yep yep yep - unfortunately i think this is the case with th. grrrrr... where is kyron?

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2010, 09:08 AM
And another thing is that TH cheated with Kaine initially, did she forget that, so who is she to cast dispersion on anyone else? And what ever did DY do to her,Kyron was after all not TH's biological child, she was in a position of trust to do right by this child, and where was there any compassion for Kyron's mother, and other family members on DY's family's side? He had another family i'm sure that loved him very much and she had no right to do anything to Kyron. If she did do something to Kyron then she does deserve nothing less than the DP.

BBM

I think that is a little unrealistic. Unfortunately others have cheated on their spouses when they were married however if they remarry I would assume they love each other and the hurt would come just like it would in any marriage if one betrayed the other one.

I certainly don't approve of extramarital affairs but in this case Kaine said the marriage between him and Desiree was already over. We do know that Desiree was going to file for a divorce even before she became pregnant and then backed off. So something was amiss imo even before Terri came along.

By saying if a person cheats in their ongoing marriage they have no right to be angry or in pain because one or both of them had cheated in the past means bringing a scorecard into the present marriage from the past. It is the vows broken in the present marriage that counts and hell hath no fury like a woman scorned as the old saying goes.

But I am not sure Terri's anger and resentment toward Kaine has anything to do with an affair. I think it goes much deeper than that and I think Kaine knows what may have set this off but is being mum about it.

I highly doubt that Terri's motivations or thoughts included Desiree. Desiree only saw Kyron basically 4 days a month. Imo this anger is toward the one that got to be with Kyron everyday.

I am still not convinced what the real truth is in this case. I am not sure she physically harmed Kyron or even if she is guilty of anything. The pain is just as great for Kaine by not having Kyron in his life. If she made Kyron disappear by giving him to someone else to raise then her revenge has worked.

This was messed up from the get go imo when Kaine was not allowing anyone to speak out early on including Terri and suspicions ageist her were cast within days of Kyron's disappearance and it only got worse when the alleged MFH came out in Kaine's divorce papers.

Now that Terri knows she is the target and seemingly the only target she will not speak to anyone except her lawyer.

In fact I think Desiree and Kaine's constant barrage of accusations in their PCs has made it far worse and Terri will never open up and reveal what she knows to anyone. IF she truly knows anything other than what she has already told to police.

But if the evidence shows she did murder this innocent child to exact her revenge on Kaine she most assuredly should get the death penalty. However I am going to wait until that evidence comes forth by LE and the DA.



IMO

Kimster
09-16-2010, 02:42 PM
I found this link while looking for something else and thought I'd stick it in this thread. It is from Psychology Today magazine.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stepmonster/201007/the-stepmother-and-the-boy-who-went-missing-kyrons-saga

Aedrys
09-16-2010, 03:02 PM
I found this link while looking for something else and thought I'd stick it in this thread. It is from Psychology Today magazine.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stepmonster/201007/the-stepmother-and-the-boy-who-went-missing-kyrons-saga

Yes, very interesting, partially. I do agree there is a stepmonster stereotype. But I don't agree all stepmothers love their non-bio kids and couldn't possibly hurt them. Oh, and the comments were overwhelmingly Terri is innocent and there's no proof she did anything wrong. I got distracted from the article by the obvious bias in Terri's favor on this site.

Not my kind of site. I never suspected her because she was a stepmother, I suspected her because of her bad decisions and suspicious/selfish personality. In fact, I didn't want it to be her at first because I'm a stepmother too. But I am far different from Terri. She and I share the same title, but are two totally different people.

Her being a stepmother has nothing to do it. It's her demeanor, it's her bad decisions, it's the fact she was the last adult to see Kyron that makes me suspicious.

Morag
09-16-2010, 03:12 PM
I found this link while looking for something else and thought I'd stick it in this thread. It is from Psychology Today magazine.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stepmonster/201007/the-stepmother-and-the-boy-who-went-missing-kyrons-saga

Wednesday Martin is the stepmother of my son's best friend.
(and she is a beloved stepmother, not a stepmonster).

just
09-16-2010, 03:22 PM
snipped from above article:

" “If this is true, it gives us a pretty major insight into what kind of person she is and that she is indeed capable of doing something to Kyron,” says Pat Brown, a forensic psychologist in Washington, D.C. “Clearly, anyone who takes out a hit on their husband or wife definitely jumps into the psychopathic category.”

Martin Williams, a forensic psychologist in San Jose, Calif., also says putting a hit on someone would be a strong indicator of psychosis. "

What kind of person is Terri Moulton Horman?

PG - Psychotic Ginger

AmyDC
09-16-2010, 09:23 PM
OneLove, I agree. I have also dealt with alot of teenage girls that have been given NOS type or bipolar diagnosis, when the therapist stated, off the record, that the real diagnosis is most likely borderline personality disorder. These are some of the most unpredictable, difficult, and sometimes downright dangerous persons to deal with, even as teens. It is very hard to get adequate treatment for them and I have often been told that there is no adequate treatment:( Don't know if that is so or not....Part of the reason for the improper diagnosis, to my understanding, is that personality disorders are not typically given to persons under the age of 18.