View Full Version : What makes you think Terri Horman is innocent?
cypress
07-07-2010, 10:22 PM
Why do you think she's innocent, or at the very least, why are you not convinced she's guilty?
1. There is no evidence Terri resented Kyron. She may have, but there is no evidence of it, IMHO. By all accounts, she loved Kyron. In his pictures, he appears well cared for, happy, at ease, groomed. He's eating, playing, and smiling. Terri's older son, who up until recently lived with Terri, seemed to dote on Kyron or at the very least get along well with him. Children often take cues from their parents. In all the pictures I've seen of Kyron and his siblings, they seem like a tight knit group.
2. Terri helped Kyron with his science fair project, and not only that, she seemed proud of him. She gave him credit, saying she only helped laminate (this is anti-narcissistic, IMHO).
3. She took him to school the day he went missing and was seen by multiple witnesses. Some witnesses place Kyron at the school after Terri left. There is Kyron's friend's account of seeing Kyron, the "cool electrical project," the confusion in the classroom, and the teacher saying Kyron had probably gone to get water or that he was in the bathroom. None of this involves confusion about where Terri was, only about where Kyron was, or was not, as is the case.
4. Terri has, as far as we know, and per LE's statements, cooperated. She submitted to multiple interrogations, two polygraphs, searches of cars, home, etc. Even when it became obvious that LE was zeroing in on her, especially with the questionnaire, she remained cooperative and did not retain counsel.
It was only after Kaine left, filed for divorce, a RO, and took her daughter, that she retained counsel.
5. She did comment on the news site, but other than that, she hasn't pursued the spotlight. For the most part, she's stayed quiet, especially in light of all the accusations against her. This case is as bizarre as they come, but she's not thrusting herself into the spotlight. Even if it's on the advice of her lawyer, she's listening to him, which again is anti-narcissistic, IMHO.
Feel free to add your thoughts as to why she may not be guilty.
JBean
07-07-2010, 10:29 PM
I have no idea if she is innocent or guilty. I do not have nearly enough information to make a call either way.
ETA:I will say I did not see any suspicious behavior prior to the landscaper report. So, if the landscaper's account turns out to be bogus, I have even fewer hunches.
Beatrice
07-07-2010, 10:30 PM
NOTHING tells me she is innocent.
ALL "evidence" points to Terri...and an accomplist.
carbuff
07-07-2010, 10:31 PM
I don't have an opinion as to whether she's innocent, but I see no evidence of her guilt. The supposed "evidence" against her is all hearsay and gossip.
ETA: to me, the landscaper's accusation smacks of rejected man seeking revenge...but again, that's also hearsay and gossip at this point.
songline
07-07-2010, 10:31 PM
I do not know that she is innocent.
I only know that pointing only at her is not an investigation.
I want to know:
Why the school did not call home immediately.
Why the substitute teacher calmed down the child who said K was missing and did not do more about it.
Where did she go when she left the room.
I have no idea if she is innocent or not. I only know that we can not jump on one person because the investigation STOPES and it is not fair. it is too easy for LE to just stay with TH and not do more.
cypress
07-07-2010, 10:33 PM
NOTHING tells me she is innocent.
ALL "evidence" points to Terri...and an accomplist.
I'm not convinced she's innocent, I'm just not convinced she's guilty, either, which is the less popular conclusion, IMHO.
cluciano63
07-07-2010, 10:36 PM
I do not know that she is innocent.
I only know that pointing only at her is not an investigation.
I want to know:
Why the school did not call home immediately.
Why the substitute teacher calmed down the child who said K was missing and did not do more about it.
Where did she go when she left the room.
I have no idea if she is innocent or not. I only know that we can not jump on one person because the investigation STOPES and it is not fair. it is too easy for LE to just stay with TH and not do more.
Song, there is some confusion as to whether or not the teacher was told by Terri that Kyron had an appointment, which when was Kyron was not in class, it confirmed for her it must be true. Terri is said to have said that she meant the next Friday. Also this school did not have the policy of calling home if a student is absent-poor policy perhaps, but it was their policy and parents would be aware of that. Also, we do not know what to make of what the 8-yr old said on his tape when he went on TV; LE says there were no subs that day and that Terri was the last person to see Kyron, which if true, means that the little boy could not have seen him when he said he did.
hope that is all clear as mud.
As far as Terri being innocent, well she is, until proven otherwise. I just hope that if she if she is tried and the evidence is there, she is not the kind of "innocent" that OJ is, when it is all over.
mchris1024
07-07-2010, 10:37 PM
Not sure she is guilty or innocent, think there is MUCH we do not know. I am really leaning towards a kidnapping just not sure if she is or isn't involved. I think LE is involved in a cat and mouse game and the family is all in on it trying to lure out whoever has Kyron. JMO
TxLady2
07-07-2010, 10:41 PM
I'm on the fence. She might be innocent, and she might not be. But I agree that the things pointing to her are mostly gossip and speculation, and that started immediately.
I hate to see LE focus on ONE person and seemingly ignore any other possibilities.
One thing that strikes me is, the bio mom and stepdad making statements directed to Terri to "do the right thing", when LE has not confirmed that Terri is a suspect. What do they know that LE doesn't, or won't say? Is this just normal suspcion on a mother's part? Or is she fully convinced that Terri is responsible?
At any rate... I need something a little more concrete than the fact she is the last known person to see him. That does not always equate to being guilty, IMO.
Calliope
07-07-2010, 10:45 PM
Why do you think she's innocent, or at the very least, why are you not convinced she's guilty?
<snipped>
What you said...
Additionally, we know Kaine returned home early afternoon to find Terri and baby already there, in their usual routine I suppose. Did Terri know when he was getting home that day? If she did think he'd been cheating on her, why would she trust him as to when he says he'll arrive home? Especially when so much is at stake?
She has a husband who can work from home when he chooses, and she has reason to believe he'll be arriving home early this day, yet risks him being there when she gets home after *whatever* she did to Kyron, before she has a chance to change, clean up, etc. And she must have done a good job cleaning up and hiding her tracks, as Kaine didn't suspect anything was amiss when he arrived home.
cj1132
07-07-2010, 10:46 PM
I have not seen anything concrete that says TH is guilty in the disappearance of Kyron. Most likely, LE has more information than I do. I've followed a number of cases on WS and many prior to joining and I will say this is the first time that I have been afraid that someone could be innocent and still convicted.
TxLady2
07-07-2010, 10:48 PM
Song, there is some confusion as to whether or not the teacher was told by Terri that Kyron had an appointment, which when was Kyron was not in class, it confirmed for her it must be true. Terri is said to have said that she meant the next Friday. Also this school did not have the policy of calling home if a student is absent-poor policy perhaps, but it was their policy and parents would be aware of that. Also, we do not know what to make of what the 8-yr old said on his tape when he went on TV; LE says there were no subs that day and that Terri was the last person to see Kyron, which if true, means that the little boy could not have seen him when he said he did.
hope that is all clear as mud.
As far as Terri being innocent, well she is, until proven otherwise. I just hope that if she if she is tried and the evidence is there, she is not the kind of "innocent" that OJ is, when it is all over.
BBM: And that's another thing... why did LE dismiss this boy's statement? What if the boy was right? More important... how do they know he's wrong?
Just because he used the word "sub" he might have meant a teacher's aide or another parent who sometimes substitutes, and didn't know her name, so that's how he classified her.
Too many unanswered questions.
I think that given what we know, there is no proof and/or no overwhelming circumstances that point to her guilt.
Charlie09
07-07-2010, 10:51 PM
(snipped)
Too many unanswered questions.
I don't know if she's innocent or not - but to me, that's the money quote, too many unanswered questions. And it feels orchestrated (but by whom?) to make her look bad.
Ms Suzanne
07-07-2010, 10:52 PM
BBM: And that's another thing... why did LE dismiss this boy's statement? What if the boy was right? More important... how do they know he's wrong?
Just because he used the word "sub" he might have meant a teacher's aide or another parent who sometimes substitutes, and didn't know her name, so that's how he classified her.
Too many unanswered questions.
I really don't think this little boys statement should be dismissed.He also said Kyron was going to see a cool science project.
WholeLottaRosie
07-07-2010, 10:54 PM
I agree with what others have said. Too many questions. And one thing - it astounds me that someone who appears to be an intelligent woman with a masters would have made so many mistakes to have it all point to her. Me thinks there is something behind the all things point to Terri, and what that is, I am not positive of. Every single thing that I have seen being used to point to Terri, I can think of an easy answer, solely based on what little is know, that refutes it.
SacreBleu
07-07-2010, 10:57 PM
Reasonable doubt - plenty. Gut instinct - responsible, but not the perp.
To respond to cypress's itemization:
1. I'll give you that one. Of course, pictures do not always tell the whole story. They are but a snapshot in time.
2. She lied. That is NOT the project of a 2nd grader.
3. Wouldn't you want that to be the case if you had planned to take Kyron? She could be just very cunning.
4. Part I - resistance would have only put her in LE's sights; Part II - why criminal counsel?
5. I don't for one moment believe she has not posted under a different username.
DairyGirl
07-07-2010, 10:59 PM
I suspect TH but I don't know if she's guilty. If there is another possibility LE isn't letting that out. If I were on the jury, even if all the rumors turned out to be true I couldn't convict. Especially the murder for hire. He said/she said is all I see. It is always nice when there is no doubt, like a video, eye witness or dna but that isn't always the case. My fear is that we will never know for sure and whoever did this will get away and be walking among us.
SusieMom
07-07-2010, 11:00 PM
Well... I remain unconvinced and I know the reason why.. its Baby K. If the person who took her big brother away from her knew how much she adored him yet did it anyway, then that person has to be a totally unfeeling monster. I just don't get that impression from TH. I'm a mom of a 7yr old boy and a 2 yr old girl... there are just no words to capture their relationship, it is beautiful and sacred. He is old enough to never have jealousy towards her and she is little enough to think he is marvelous.. her prince, her hero... the coolest kid in the whole wide world. The one she wants to sit next to even if they're just watching TV. They have their own little rituals for saying goodnight and goodbye when he goes to school.
I can't wrap my head around the idea that the mother who is so genuinely devoted to her would take him away. I just can't make that fit TH, no matter how much rage she might have felt towards her husband.
nonfictionrocks
07-07-2010, 11:04 PM
I'm not convinced she's innocent, I'm just not convinced she's guilty, either, which is the less popular conclusion, IMHO.
ITA
I joined WS over a year ago to follow this case:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=365
I found WS only after two people were arrested six weeks after Tori's abduction from her school. Even though LE released footage a couple of days after her disappearance (a nursing home's camera from across the street showed a woman leading the little girl away), posters from both WS and FB still believed it to be either the mother or the mother's best friend. The mother lived with an accused "pedo" and court documentation of this accusation (and charges) were posted on both sites. AND up until the arrest of these two, the mother swore she did not recognize the woman in the video (LE has since reported that the women knew each other). Catching up and reading back on the threads after I joined (and after the arrests) I would say it was hard pressed to find anyone that did not think that the mother was involved. She held daily press conferences that were picked apart in detail. LE (or so it has been suspected) even set up a sting situation where a limo ride to meet a mysterious benefactor was detailed.
So long story short, I have said before, as much I may be more comforted that the step-mother is the one responsible, it it more because as a parent, I am horrified by the "stranger" or someone a little bit known by Kyron theory - I am all too aware that it happens and it can happen close to home. I am not ready to convict TH but if I were her, I would do my best to throw that LS under the nearest oncoming bus. JMO, MOO, etc.
Beyond Belief
07-07-2010, 11:07 PM
No concrete evidence has been shared so its impossible for me to offer an opinion on guilt or innocense.
I believe when I understood how much time and involvement she had with Kryon's class, I thought perhaps she was laying the groundwork for future employment.
The choice of that particular day is terrible. Summer was one week away and Kyron could have been sent to camp, and he spent alot of time with his mother. He wasn't in her way at all. And her teenage son was scheduled for a visit.
Why cause this kind of upset at this particuliar time? It just doesn't make sense to me.
The lawn guy, well, that almost sounds ridiculous.
Sex offenders are sly, smart and walk among us. That will continue to be my first thoughts in this case.
MOO
Ms Suzanne
07-07-2010, 11:10 PM
Apparantly no one saw Kyron leave with his mother.Just they were last seen at the school together.I personally do not feel she was the last person to see him at the school.LE made a flier with a white truck and a picture of Terri.Well,apparantly the landscaper had a white truck also.Little kids might not know the difference between different white trucks.Just it was a white truck.I really hope they are looking into the LS.I don't know if she is innocent or guilty.I do not think things point to her at all.Just the murder for hit situation that I feel didn't pan out and was all about Kaine and not Kyron at all.I'm reading LE said she was not a suspect or a person of interest and she is cooperating with LE.What am I suppose to believe when LE says that.LE is not saying she is " THE KEY " like MC is in Haleighs case.I'm just hearing through newspaper articles.She is being evasive?I do feel she does need to clear that up.Maybe she has.I do hope and pray they are looking at many suspects and POI's.I pray they find this sweet little boy very soon.It's very sad.
Barry
07-07-2010, 11:12 PM
Based on currently available evidence, if I were sitting on a jury, I could not convict.
kbl8201
07-07-2010, 11:23 PM
i dont know. i thought casey was guilty of killing caylee the minute the story broke.
and caylee wouldnt be found for another 5 months yet.
i just dont know if anything is certian about this case at all
gardeness
07-07-2010, 11:24 PM
Well... I remain unconvinced and I know the reason why.. its Baby K. If the person who took her big brother away from her knew how much she adored him yet did it anyway, then that person has to be a totally unfeeling monster. I just don't get that impression from TH. I'm a mom of a 7yr old boy and a 2 yr old girl... there are just no words to capture their relationship, it is beautiful and sacred. He is old enough to never have jealousy towards her and she is little enough to think he is marvelous.. her prince, her hero... the coolest kid in the whole wide world. The one she wants to sit next to even if they're just watching TV. They have their own little rituals for saying goodnight and goodbye when he goes to school.
I can't wrap my head around the idea that the mother who is so genuinely devoted to her would take him away. I just can't make that fit TH, no matter how much rage she might have felt towards her husband.
Wow, this is such a good point to make. We also have children with a large-ish age gap, and the hero worship is so sweet and wonderful. Even when the oldest is gone to "regular" activities, the little ones are asking for him...
DairyGirl
07-07-2010, 11:29 PM
Based on currently available evidence, if I were sitting on a jury, I could not convict.
I think LE agrees. If they had anything concrete they would arrest her.
kbl8201
07-07-2010, 11:30 PM
also not sure if this thread should be operating yet. she hasnt even been arrested :)
Calliope
07-07-2010, 11:31 PM
also not sure if this thread should be operating yet. she hasnt even been arrested :)
But it appears she's already been convicted ;)
cypress
07-07-2010, 11:33 PM
also not sure if this thread should be operating yet. she hasnt even been arrested :)
Well, the discussions in many of the other threads insinuate or presuppose her guilt, so I was just going for a different point of view. ;o)
seeking truth
07-07-2010, 11:35 PM
There is nothing that points to Terri being innocent.
This is my opinion
BetteDavisEyes
07-07-2010, 11:36 PM
When LE announced that this was "an isolated case" and that the school community had no need to fear that there was a predator on the loose, I took them at their word as I'm sure did most locals. As time marches on without an arrest, no charges, no suspects, no (known) strategy for solving the case, I become increasingly concerned for Skyline students and their parents when school begins in the fall.
Terri Horman was well-known at Skyline as an active parent, volunteer, and substitute teacher. No doubt she came in contact with many students and parents as an active member of the school community. It must be terribly confusing right now for parents and their children to ponder the prospect of this seemingly creative and talented woman to have betrayed their tight-knit community by committing an almost unthinkable crime.
I don't know whether or not Terri Horman is responsible for Kyron's disappearance, but, if I were a Skyline parent, I would want this case solved prior to the start of the next academic year. I would like to be assured that the school that my child/children attend had absolutely no culpability in this unfortunate incident. jmo
rosiebean
07-07-2010, 11:38 PM
I have always looked to LE for my cues. I have no idea whether or not TH did anything, as I have in no way shape or form access to the vast investigative details that LE does. LE, who does have access to that very pertinent information, seem to be IMO looking at TH as a serious POI.
I have no reason to think that LE is engaging on a witch hunt, that they have failed to investigate other avenues that do not involve TH, that they are engaged in 'tunnel vision', that they are looking for a 'scapegoat', or that they are doing anything but following the evidence. Until I see evidence that the dedicated LE employees engaged in this case (and by LE, I mean all of those from the multiple agencies involved in the investigation) are being anything but professional, I have no reason to think otherwise. I am not going to throw LE under the bus without cause, nor am I going to assume that the only evidence they have against anyone is what is available in the online and print media. I am very much aware that LE is not perfect, but the vast majority of those working in that field are honest and professional, and until proven otherwise, I am trusting them to do their jobs well.
sorrell skye
07-07-2010, 11:40 PM
Based on currently available evidence, if I were sitting on a jury, I could not convict.
:toast:
Me either. Furthermore, a Grand Jury would not even convene, based on currently available circumstantial "evidence".
As Sheriff Staton so eloquently phrased it:
"I want evidence I can hang my hat on."
So far, as things stand now, my hat is laying on the floor.
nonfictionrocks
07-07-2010, 11:40 PM
Sex offenders are sly, smart and walk among us. That will continue to be my first thoughts in this case.
MOO
snipped and bbm
ITA- The registered and the not yet registered!
kbl8201
07-07-2010, 11:42 PM
i really dont think LE has enough to charge ANYONE. other wise we'd have someone doing the perp walk by now and kyron would be found one way or another.
im seriously frustrated with this whole mess
songline
07-07-2010, 11:55 PM
Song, there is some confusion as to whether or not the teacher was told by Terri that Kyron had an appointment, which when was Kyron was not in class, it confirmed for her it must be true. Terri is said to have said that she meant the next Friday. Also this school did not have the policy of calling home if a student is absent-poor policy perhaps, but it was their policy and parents would be aware of that. Also, we do not know what to make of what the 8-yr old said on his tape when he went on TV; LE says there were no subs that day and that Terri was the last person to see Kyron, which if true, means that the little boy could not have seen him when he said he did.
hope that is all clear as mud.
As far as Terri being innocent, well she is, until proven otherwise. I just hope that if she if she is tried and the evidence is there, she is not the kind of "innocent" that OJ is, when it is all over.
I SURE MUST AGREE that we do not need another OJ case.
And hope that every school will change that policy - it is a scary policy, they must call a parent if the child is missing.
I still hope that LE is going through everything because as much as we do not want an OJ case, I have seen to many innocent sit in prison 15 ++ years before they come out and by then their lives are ruined.
I have to be honest when it is JURY DUTY TIME I only take on civil cases. I know they dont tell you everything about what is really going on.
cypress
07-07-2010, 11:57 PM
i really dont think LE has enough to charge ANYONE. other wise we'd have someone doing the perp walk by now and kyron would be found one way or another.
im seriously frustrated with this whole mess
The fact that LE and Kyron's bio parents assert he is still alive, because they have no evidence to the contrary, tells me they have no evidence he has been murdered. And, yet, the likelihood he is still alive is very slim.
With regard to murder, they are admitting they have no evidence on Terri or anyone else. If she murdered Kyron, where are her defensive wounds? Where is the blood evidence? Other fluid evidence? If she killed this child, she had to incapacitate him in some way. Even if he didn't fight, she would've had to move him.
There's the DUI in Terri's past. I'm not sure if we're allowed to comment on Facebook content other than pictures. She posted answers to an informative about me type thing in 2009. Are we allowed to post about it? I'll wait for a response on that one. Other than her DUI and the child endangerment investigation that accompanied it, there is nothing in Terri's past to indicate she's neglectful of/violent toward her children. Terri's ex-husband said her older son left the Horman home because he was butting heads with Kaine not Terri. She doesn't appear narcissistic or sociopathic to me. In my mind, as I process this case or crimes in general, the level of premeditation and evil required to abduct and kill Kyron would produce tells in other areas of the perpetrator's life. I see nothing in Terri's life that red flags this type of event.
The one possible red flag, the DUI, was an isolated event. Years have gone by and she's not had another, so therefore it's a non-issue for me. There's not a pattern of consistent bad behavior; it was an isolated mistake, IMHO.
T-Rex
07-08-2010, 12:02 AM
Cypress made some good points. I'd add:
LE knowingly misled the public whether there was evidence supporting TH's story. That made me mistrust them.
Gary Condit acted guilty as hell, with all kinds of circumstantial evidence against him, yet there's a good chance he was innocent.
Police swore they scoured every inch of the dorm where Wade Steffey disappeared--yet there he was, all along.
Elizabeth Smart's uncle, supposedly, failed a lie-detector test.
Oh, and for those who followed the Christa Worthington case, with the HUGE cast of close suspects...the GARBAGE MAN?!
BlOnDe_GuRrL
07-08-2010, 12:03 AM
I don't want to say that I think she's "innocent"..... but I will say that I am still not convinced that she is responsible for Kyron's disappearance. No matter what the rumor is, no matter what the media spins etc. until I see tangible evidence or a confession, I will not believe that she is guilty of this crime.
There's no evidence... everything I've seen is rumor... and a whole lot of people with over active imaginations. I can't even go to the news sites because their comments section just infuriates me. I feel sorry for those people. Plus I just don't really see her doing this.
I do think she may be guilty of other things... but her marriage and personal life are none of my business and I will not judge. The murder plot doesn't even really phase me either.. The story stinks.. and I think it's garbage...
But even if it were true, I still wouldn't suspect her w/ the whole Kyron thing. I've known people who wanted their husbands killed because they were abusive... and these people are far from "psychotic" or "sociopath" labels. They're very normal people in terrible situations and have no way out or are too afraid to leave because of physical or emotional abuse. Not saying it's right.. but it doesn't make them horrible imo.
ETA: Also, having a "deceptive" answer on the polygraph doesn't do it for me either.. There are a number of reasons why she could have lied about where she was that day... maybe she WAS trying to hide something that she didn't want made public... not necessarily anything to do with Kyron.
Also, the facebook/gym thing was nonsense too.. Her entire post was "Hitting the gym tomorrow... didn't get back home til after 8 pm tonight. I'm tired" or something to that affect. I took that as "I'll catch up with you guys at the gym tomorrow instead of tonight. It's late" She was probably going there to meet up with friends to discuss the case. If my child were missing, I'd be balled up on the floor screaming.. or running to the end of the Earth to find them... BUT, if it were my stepchild, sadly, I must admit that I wouldn't be quite as upset. I'd be upset.. don't get me wrong. Maybe I'm a sociopath too...
I feel absolutely horrible for Terri... and I hope they can find Kyron and clear Terri so she can get her little girl back
My $.02
songline
07-08-2010, 12:05 AM
I have always looked to LE for my cues. I have no idea whether or not TH did anything, as I have in no way shape or form access to the vast investigative details that LE does. LE, who does have access to that very pertinent information, seem to be IMO looking at TH as a serious POI.
I have no reason to think that LE is engaging on a witch hunt, that they have failed to investigate other avenues that do not involve TH, that they are engaged in 'tunnel vision', that they are looking for a 'scapegoat', or that they are doing anything but following the evidence. Until I see evidence that the dedicated LE employees engaged in this case (and by LE, I mean all of those from the multiple agencies involved in the investigation) are being anything but professional, I have no reason to think otherwise. I am not going to throw LE under the bus without cause, nor am I going to assume that the only evidence they have against anyone is what is available in the online and print media. I am very much aware that LE is not perfect, but the vast majority of those working in that field are honest and professional, and until proven otherwise, I am trusting them to do their jobs well.
There is a huge difference between engaging in a witch hunt and being so lazy that they dont even lift the rug to see what is under it.
I am just saying that LE has made so many errors in so many classes. EXAMPLE: KC Anthony's car should have been confiscated by LE immediately. Case and point.
I do not think they are always right ether, I do not automatically think they are cops so they are ethical and diligent.
I wait, I look, and I read. So far I can't say TH is guilty or innocent. I DO say I dont want to see them have a person of interest and stop looking elsewhere too.
SleuthyGal
07-08-2010, 12:09 AM
Guilty of what, exactly?
Do we know if Kyron is deceased? No we don't.
Do we know what happened to Kyron? No we don't.
Do we know that TMH is involved in Kyron's disappearance? No we don't. We may suspect, but we don't know for sure.
The title of this thread is misleading. TMH is 'innocent' by the very virtue of the fact that:
- Kyron has not been declared dead
- No one is able to say with certainty and knowledge what happened to Kyron
- Proof of TMH trying to hire a hitman to kill her husband has not been accomplished by LE
- There are more rumors than facts in this case, by an order of magnitude!
How about 'convicting' on facts instead of rumors? Which means....we'll have to wait for the facts to emerge.
CarmelEyesD
07-08-2010, 12:10 AM
Again. it seems to me that everyone is so focused on TH, that -if there were another suspect-he/she has gotten away. I cannot rule out a predator who took advantage of a busy hectic school morning. It seems the finger has been pointing to TH from the first, and I am not sure why, as we have seen no concrete evidence. Rumors of cell phone pings, saying she wasn't where she said? Might convince me she has a 'secret' friend-doesn't convince me of murder.
A landscaper saying 'she wanted to hire me as a hitman"? Could be a set up, could be a plant, and absolutely is a he said/she said.
Some posting on Facebook people didn't like? She wasn't talking to us-she was communicating to friends. We don't know anything of what was in her mind, or the reasons for her comments, other than communicating with her friends. To communicate with them. Not to please the world. She closed her FB pretty quick-I don't think she realized how many people would be jumping to it, and dissecting her pics, her comments, and everything else about her. ( I know if anything ever happened in my family, the first thing I would do is close my FB and advise everyone in my family to do the same. Reasons as shown above.)
Being the last one to see him? I would hate to think I could take my 6 year old grandaughter to school, and if she happened to be kidnapped by a SO or predator that morning...maybe from the playground, maybe from the children's bathroom-that I would be considered a suspect in her death/disappearance, simply because I took her to school. As predators become more desperate, there may be more children kidnapped from busy school days or playgrounds or field trips. We already know they can be kidnapped from shopping malls. We already know that if a predator has a chance, he will take it-and a crowded busy chaotic location is the best place for them to do it. Summer lakes and ponds, swimming pools, playgrounds and parks, and yes-school functions. Where else would you be if you are a predator? You will be where the children are, preferably on the busiest most chaotic day there is.
Granted, there must be info we don't have. But if it is of the nature we have already seen, I am not convinced that TH is a prime suspect.
If someone is going to accuse me of a crime, you bet I am going to hire a criminal attorney right away. Even if I am innocent.
It just seems 'too pat'...too easy. All the fingers pointing at TH, right from the beginning, with nothing to truly stand out as evidence or proof. The way she talks, walks, stands, or blinks is not enough for me to accuse and convict someone as a murderer. A mom who kept a clean home, raised children, appeared to be loving and caring-all of a sudden thrown away in the collective opinion she is guilty, before any evidence at all was shown...doesn't make sense to me. It still doesn't.
And if it wasn't her, who was it? Where is he now? Where is Kyron?
JMO
cluciano63
07-08-2010, 12:12 AM
I think many people would like to think Terri has some degree of involvement, as that might gie Kyron a slightly better chance of being found alive. If a stranger took him, the odds are against him.
But I can't buy into the accomplice theory after nearly 5 weeks; LE has at their disposal all kinds of resources, techology we don't even know about and I find it hard to comprehend that they would not be able to track down this person, who must have had some contact with Terri prior to June 4. And I also don't see that anyone (alleged accomplice) would be prepared for this, whatever it is, to go on for so long, to be able to maintain and contain a living child old enough to ID his captor.
So I kind of want it to be Terri, if that gives Kyron a better chance of survival.
cypress
07-08-2010, 12:14 AM
Guilty of what, exactly?
Do we know if Kyron is deceased? No we don't.
Do we know what happened to Kyron? No we don't.
Do we know that TMH is involved in Kyron's disappearance? No we don't. We may suspect, but we don't know for sure.
The title of this thread is misleading. TMH is 'innocent' by the very virtue of the fact that:
- Kyron has not been declared dead
- No one is able to say with certainty and knowledge what happened to Kyron
- Proof of TMH trying to hire a hitman to kill her husband has not been accomplished by LE
- There are more rumors than facts in this case, by an order of magnitude!
How about 'convicting' on facts instead of rumors? Which means....we'll have to wait for the facts to emerge.
Having followed this case from the beginning, there is already an overwhelming conviction by public opinion. The title of this thread is in response to that widely expressed belief.
Having said that, I don't mind changing the title of the thread if some feel it is misleading.
rosiebean
07-08-2010, 12:15 AM
There is a huge difference between engaging in a witch hunt and being so lazy that they dont even lift the rug to see what is under it.
I am just saying that LE has made so many errors in so many classes. EXAMPLE: KC Anthony's car should have been confiscated by LE immediately. Case and point.
I do not think they are always right ether, I do not automatically think they are cops so they are ethical and diligent.
I wait, I look, and I read. So far I can't say TH is guilty or innocent. I DO say I dont want to see them have a person of interest and stop looking elsewhere too.
I do not see LE being lazy in this investigation. In the first two plus weeks of the investigation, LE was very publicly pursuing multiple avenues. There were the searches around the school just in case Kyron had wandered off. I forget the number of detectives I read were assigned to the case, but it was a ridiculous (i.e., huge) amount...and they were tasked with checking leads and tips. Nothing I've seen or heard has lead me to think that the investigators were less than thorough OR that the sheriff's department tasked with coordinating everyone has a reputation for shoddy LE work.
Should evidence arise that LE has been less than thorough, I'll be the first to question everything they have said and done about this case. But until then, I am not going to assume that they've been lazy or sloppy just because some investigators were in other cases. For every mistake made in one case, I can point you to twenty things done right in other cases.
Given what is in the public domain, I would not convict TH. However, given what is in the public domain, I likewise do not think it fair to think that TH is being scapegoated or that LE's looking into her is unjust.
cypress
07-08-2010, 12:16 AM
Mods, I apologize if this is not a palatable thread title, but it is in response to the widely held belief Terri is guilty and the public expression of that belief. Feel free to change this thread title to a more palatable title if you see fit.
Perhaps, "Why you don't believe Terri is involved in Kyron's disappearance?"
cluciano63
07-08-2010, 12:18 AM
PS- to be fair, the thread title just asks a question...it does not state anything.
CarmelEyesD
07-08-2010, 12:20 AM
I think many people would like to think Terri has some degree of involvement, as that might gie Kyron a slightly better chance of being found alive. If a stranger took him, the odds are against him.
But I can't buy into the accomplice theory after nearly 5 weeks; LE has at their disposal all kinds of resources, techology we don't even know about and I find it hard to comprehend that they would not be able to track down this person, who must have had some contact with Terri prior to June 4. And I also don't see that anyone (alleged accomplice) would be prepared for this, whatever it is, to go on for so long, to be able to maintain and contain a living child old enough to ID his captor.
So I kind of want it to be Terri, if that gives Kyron a better chance of survival.
A strong male predator who blended in, or was known and considered safe, would not have needed an accomplice. He could also have done what he needed to do, disposed of the child and not ever have been noticed...in his current life (returned to work, home etc) ( ETA also strong female. )
A stranger might normally stand out, but perhaps not on a parent visit daay-aunts uncles family friends etc...but someone who appeared to be local, or even is local..not so much. "Who was that guy? Wasn't that Evan's grandpa? NO? Oh maybe it was Sally's grandpa" etc...
Jaxson
07-08-2010, 12:25 AM
I think we could replace Terri with any number of people as the last to see him and they would be just as guilty because of the way they acted, didn't act, what they said or didn't say, where they were or were not. All I can see as evidence against Terri is that SHE was the last one to see him (according to?) If a person left Medford in the am and hit Portland at 5 hrs later Kyron could be back in Medford by 2 or 3 in the afternoon. How guilty would we see Desiree appearing (like over doing the emotion) if that were the case. I am in NO way thinking this is the case. I just wanted to give an example.
T-Rex
07-08-2010, 12:26 AM
Good point: Big coincidence that it happened on the one day when the school was filled with unmonitored strangers.
mrsjonnob
07-08-2010, 12:27 AM
I was largely Team Terri until the story of hit for hire broke. If that is proven false, then I will resume my support for Terri... but with a murder for hire sub story, it just doesn't look good for Terri
Ms Suzanne
07-08-2010, 12:27 AM
Having followed this case from the beginning, there is already an overwhelming conviction by public opinion. The title of this thread is in response to that widely expressed belief.
Having said that, I don't mind changing the title of the thread if some feel it is misleading.
I think it's fine.
rosiebean
07-08-2010, 12:32 AM
ETA: Also, having a "deceptive" answer on the polygraph doesn't do it for me either.. There are a number of reasons why she could have lied about where she was that day... maybe she WAS trying to hide something that she didn't want made public... not necessarily anything to do with Kyron.
This is one thing I cannot get my mind around...why on earth would anyone lie about where they were when a child is missing? Sorry, no matter what the relation of the child to me, no matter how embarrassing my actions (and I've done some embarrassing stuff) I just cannot fathom lying...and continuing to lie, given that LE seems to still not have an accurate timeline of her morning...when that lie is distracting LE from finding that child. Nope, just can't fathom it. That's one of the main sticking points in all of this for me.
If my child were missing, I'd be balled up on the floor screaming.. or running to the end of the Earth to find them... BUT, if it were my stepchild, sadly, I must admit that I wouldn't be quite as upset. I'd be upset.. don't get me wrong. Maybe I'm a sociopath too...This is one thing I can agree on. Early on, I said that it was unfair to compare TH's behavior with Kyron's natural parents. I've known stepparents who loved their children as their own. I've known stepparents who didn't have the same attachment (even those who were involved with stepchildren from an early age), but still did their absolute best to be a loving parent to them. Not having the same attachment to a stepchild as to a natural child is very normal IMO. There's a strong bond, sometimes, but it's not something that can be assumed.
I feel absolutely horrible for Terri... and I hope they can find Kyron and clear Terri so she can get her little girl back.I don't. Maybe that makes me mean or whatever, but with what I know now...knowing that LE is having a hard time with her story and knowing that she is a focus of their attention, I am withholding any pity for her...and for most of the players in this mess. The main person I feel absolutely horrible for is Kyron.
CarmelEyesD
07-08-2010, 12:35 AM
We need to remember everyone handles, processes, and shows grief and panic in different ways. Some people don't cry-it doesn't make than sociopathic..in my case it was beaten out of me when I was little. I simply do not cry in front of anyone, never mind camera's. I cry alone, in private. Some people scream, run pull out hair etc. Some people get very quiet and introspective. We have no idea what kind of fear, panic or grief TH felt, simply by watching the PC(s). She may have been intimidated by the camera's the media and they eyes of the world. She may have been concentrating totally on comforting the others. If that is her 'normal' personality. (Some people give, some people take". ) She may have been advised to keep her emotions tightly controlled or concealed. We just don't know. She may have been afraid to 'crack' a little bit, to give in to any panic or fear or grief, for fear of it overtaking her. As some have pointed out, she already knew fingers were being pointed at her...that would make me very uncomfortable. especially if I knew I was innocent.(I have claustrophobia-I can tell you how uncomfortable I would look if I was up there, especially in a small room.) It wouldn't make me guilty. To me, Terri looked very worried...but was she worried for herself? Or was she mentally going over every aspect of the day Kyron disappeared, every friend she knew, every person she had talked to in the past few weeks? Was she worried because this was becoming real? unable to be denied, as is the first instinct? Was she quiet because she had been asked not to talk? Was she quiet because she was guilty? Was she quiet because she thought if she spoke, it might hinder Kyron returning? If I recall correctly, they were ALL quiet the first couple if weeks. If Terri did this, I just want more concrete evidence-I want a smoking gun...
ETA Do we know absolutely that she had deceptive answers on her LDT? Or is that rumors? Has LE confirmed that? ( Although I must add, she may have thought Kyron would turn up, and IF she had a secret-a friend or whatever) that she didn't want anyone to know about (as in 'ruining her marriage' it may have been her first instinct to lie...not saying that is ok, just that people do that...JMO
sorrell skye
07-08-2010, 12:38 AM
Having followed this case from the beginning, there is already an overwhelming conviction by public opinion. The title of this thread is in response to that widely expressed belief.
Having said that, I don't mind changing the title of the thread if some feel it is misleading.
I don't find the title of the thread misleading at all.
DairyGirl
07-08-2010, 12:47 AM
I think many people would like to think Terri has some degree of involvement, as that might gie Kyron a slightly better chance of being found alive. If a stranger took him, the odds are against him.
But I can't buy into the accomplice theory after nearly 5 weeks; LE has at their disposal all kinds of resources, techology we don't even know about and I find it hard to comprehend that they would not be able to track down this person, who must have had some contact with Terri prior to June 4. And I also don't see that anyone (alleged accomplice) would be prepared for this, whatever it is, to go on for so long, to be able to maintain and contain a living child old enough to ID his captor.
So I kind of want it to be Terri, if that gives Kyron a better chance of survival.
The only way Kyron could be alive would be if TH had an accomplice. And like you I can't buy into the accomplice theory. They located a landscaper that she had talked to 7 months earlier. I am sure if there was an accomplice they would have found him.
As to this thread, like I said, I believe TH is innocent, legally. That doesn't mean I don't think she was involved, just that legally there is no way she could be convicted with what they have.
sorrell skye
07-08-2010, 12:51 AM
A strong male predator who blended in, or was known and considered safe, would not have needed an accomplice. He could also have done what he needed to do, disposed of the child and not ever have been noticed...in his current life (returned to work, home etc) ( ETA also strong female. )
A stranger might normally stand out, but perhaps not on a parent visit daay-aunts uncles family friends etc...but someone who appeared to be local, or even is local..not so much. "Who was that guy? Wasn't that Evan's grandpa? NO? Oh maybe it was Sally's grandpa" etc...
ITA, it could have been anyone who had a legitimate reason for being @ the school that day - or even someone who had no reason to be there whatsoever.
The "profile" of a child predator has been inaccurately sensationalized by the media - leading some to believe that a predator has to be a creepy stranger lurking in the shadows. Sometimes it is, but more often it's not. A predator can be anyone - but statistics have shown that they often seek out occupations/settings/events/locations that give them easier access to their victims.
A child predator can also be a friend/acquaintance/family member/or otherwise "trusted" person.
TH was only one of the many people @ the school that day.
I wonder how thoroughly LE has looked into everyone else who was on that campus on June 4th.
Lavender
07-08-2010, 12:51 AM
Thank you for this thread. Here are the reasons why I think it's possible that TH is not involved:
1. No witnesses saying they saw her leave alone, without Kyron. She could have “created” witnesses by making sure people saw her leave alone. This holds true for an accomplice situation or a DIY situation. This seems like the #1 thing you'd want to do in order to remove suspicion from yourself, and it would have been within her control to make sure people saw her leave alone.
2. No photos from the expo of Kyron with lots of other adults, or TH with Kyron. She could have created a lot of photographic evidence that he was seen by others, and when he was seen, when she was seen, etc. The photos I've seen don't look like "alibli" photos.
3. If TH harmed Kyron, it seems that she has to be shoe-horned into motives where TH is made out to be a narcissistic, greedy, heartless, psychopathic, vengeful person. And evil, to boot. I don’t see any evidence of that.
4. Didn’t lawyer-up until KH took Baby K and was served with divorce papers and RO. Voluntarily took polygraphs without a lawyer, cooperated with LE by all LE accounts.
5. Too many situations created by LE that make her look guilty. Not saying it was purposeful. But I think it has happened, imo, and has created circular reasoning. Examples:
LE: Tells the family to get out and do normal things (And I don’t think they did this for their health. LE was living with people they might later arrest and they needed them to leave the house in case a defense attorney later tried to claim the family didn’t feel free to leave the presence of LE.)
Public: TH is doing normal things, therefore she must be guilty.
LE: Tells KH about a plot to kill him. KH takes Baby K and gets RO, presumably based on plot to kill him.
Public: Judge granted RO, therefore TH must be dangerous.
LE: Wires up lawn boy for a sting and it gets leaked to press.
Public: TH tried a MFH plot, therefore is capable of anything, even murdering a child.
LE: Distributes a flyer with TH’s picture and her truck.
Public: TH must be a suspect because LE distributed this flyer.
LE: Appears to believe TH is guilty, so LE tells public that this was an isolated incident.
Public: If it’s isolated, then it must be a family member. Therefore TH must have done it.
6. Connect the dots…but only use these dots. I think there are too many early statements regarding where TH and Kyron were spotted at the school that aren’t mentioned anymore. (The 9:00 sighting by the South door, Little T’s accounts to the press, etc.) If we’re being asked to connect the dots, I wish LE would tell us why certain dots have been removed.
I'm sure that LE has dots we don't know about, but I can't help but doubt many of the dots that we have been given and asked to connect together.
Chili Fries
07-08-2010, 12:54 AM
This is one thing I cannot get my mind around...why on earth would anyone lie about where they were when a child is missing? Sorry, no matter what the relation of the child to me, no matter how embarrassing my actions (and I've done some embarrassing stuff) I just cannot fathom lying...and continuing to lie, given that LE seems to still not have an accurate timeline of her morning...when that lie is distracting LE from finding that child. Nope, just can't fathom it. That's one of the main sticking points in all of this for me.
Yeah me too. It seemed to me like the hunt for Kyron changed from mostly a SAR operation to a definitively criminal investigation very abruptly. I think LE uncovered something they think significantly called her story into question (cell pings?), which shifted the focus directly on Terri.
Like others have talked about I think it's important to proceed from an assumption of total innocence toward guilt. What we know about the investigation makes me take the possibility of her guilt seriously but my mind is open.
gibby207
07-08-2010, 12:56 AM
i dont know. i thought casey was guilty of killing caylee the minute the story broke.
and caylee wouldnt be found for another 5 months yet.
i just dont know if anything is certian about this case at all
The first day Kyron was missing, I said "stepmother." I dunno why I said that... maybe it's the last couple of years I've spent on WS but it was more of a gut feeling I think. Nothing is certain, of course... and I'm not a big vilifier. I DO see where the dominos are lining up. And I appreciate the science of it all: Look at the person who last saw the victim and branch out. It's not always cut and dry like that, but usually is. There are no absolutes in crime, there are no absolutes in abduction/kidnapping, and there are no absolutes in murder. I would say, based on a layman's opinion such as I, it's not looking good for Terri at this moment.
rosiebean
07-08-2010, 01:01 AM
Yeah me too. It seemed to me like the hunt for Kyron changed from mostly a SAR operation to a definitively criminal investigation very abruptly. I think LE uncovered something they think significantly called her story into question (cell pings?), which shifted the focus directly on Terri.
Like others have talked about I think it's important to proceed from an assumption of total innocence toward guilt. What we know about the investigation makes me take the possibility of her guilt seriously but my mind is open.
Exactly. Given what we know, I don't think it's unfair to think that she might be involved. And likewise, given what we know, I cannot without doubt believe that she's totally innocent. If conclusive proof of her guilt is unveiled, I will not be shocked. But if I were on a jury, no way would I convict her based on what's publicly known about the case.
gibby207
07-08-2010, 01:23 AM
Exactly. Given what we know, I don't think it's unfair to think that she might be involved. And likewise, given what we know, I cannot without doubt believe that she's totally innocent. If conclusive proof of her guilt is unveiled, I will not be shocked. But if I were on a jury, no way would I convict her based on what's publicly known about the case.
As no one should... no one should publically convict her. I would hope, although I see it's hard to make possible, that all avenues on sleuthing are open on forums such as these. No one should vilify x or y until they know the absolutes. No one on WS knows the absolutes. It's about hypotheses. It's intriguing to me how people "pick sides" on any given case. There's a book or thesis or documentary on that, I'm thinking........
Beyond Belief
07-08-2010, 01:28 AM
One missing little boy from a school with no security system is certainly going to boost sales for security systems, cameras etc. I wonder whose company is going to profit from this case.
jadejazzkayla
07-08-2010, 01:29 AM
thank you, cypress, for starting this thread.
I have no idea of anyone's guilt or innocence.
someone took kyron and i hope that someone pays.
i think it was a sex offender. a crime of opportunity.
june 18th, LE told us terri is not a suspect. that's the last thing they have said about her. Yet I believe LE may be trying to orchestrate a case pointing to terri via the media and statements they ask the bio parents to make. Such as Bio mom asking terri to co-operate, trying to infer to the public that she is not being co-operative. I'm very uneasy about this.
at this point I'm afraid the kidnapper will get away with it. I hope I'm wrong.
cluciano63
07-08-2010, 01:35 AM
Not "convicting" her (Terri) publicly is all well and good but I know for a fact that many people have never given CA the benefit of the doubt for even a moment. I'm not defending her (and I'm not her :) ) but I have always been disturbed by the fact that she has been labeled a "baby killer" in various mediums for a very long time now, when the trial is still a year away. She is nearly always lumped together with Susan Smith, Andres Yates, and others who have benn convicted and/or confessed to murdering their children.
I know we are all pretty careful here but some of the other sites are really horrendous about not only accusing but convicting people on the internet. One of the FB sites set up for Kyron has several people implicating a possible accomplice, or at the very least, a possible lover, by name, and I find it so appalling and upsetting I want to find a way to let this person know that his name is being used in connection with this case.
Sorry for the tangent...I think it is OK to have formed an opinion on Terri based on all we've learned and I doubt that any such opinions is set in stone.
cypress
07-08-2010, 01:35 AM
It's late and I'm tired, but I'm going to post one more theory/reason why I believe Terri may not be guilty:
If Terri took and failed a polygraph, why would LE need her to take another? Do they need the indicator to show a higher degree of deception? I've always wondered if in her first polygraph she either passed or showed inconclusive, much to the surprise of LE. Now, there are reports that Terri showed deception on one question on her first polygraph, which is odd to me. If she abducted and murdered Kyron or orchestrated this whole event, how does she only show deception on ONE question?
Link to claim in article:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/landscaper_wore_wire_asked_ter.html
There was likely a string of questions related to Kyron's disappearance, and so it seems odd to me that if she harmed him, she would only show deception on one question. I'm thinking they asked if she took him to school, if she left without him, if she knows where he is, if she knows if he is deceased, if she was on Suavie Island that day, etc. Anyway, is it possible that LE lied to TH, KH, DY, and TY about the results of TH's polygraph based on the cell phone ping information as a way to put pressure on her in the hopes of eliciting a confession?
If the claim is true, does anyone else find the claim of her showing deception on only one question, odd?
If the entire assumption of Terri's guilt hinges on cell phone ping information or inconsistencies, I'm going to be very uncomfortable with the handling of this case.
GrainneDhu
07-08-2010, 01:41 AM
The first day Kyron was missing, I said "stepmother." I dunno why I said that... maybe it's the last couple of years I've spent on WS but it was more of a gut feeling I think. Nothing is certain, of course... and I'm not a big vilifier. I DO see where the dominos are lining up. And I appreciate the science of it all: Look at the person who last saw the victim and branch out. It's not always cut and dry like that, but usually is. There are no absolutes in crime, there are no absolutes in abduction/kidnapping, and there are no absolutes in murder. I would say, based on a layman's opinion such as I, it's not looking good for Terri at this moment.
BBM
Looking at the innermost circle and moving out is a logical way of organising an investigation. It is a method that has many merits.
But it also has a flaw, a big one: what do you do if someone in that innermost circle cannot be cleared? Well, you start concentrating more effort on that one person.
The reason this is a flaw is because someone can be factually innocent of any wrongdoing at all and still be unable to be cleared.
How many people posting here could be convincingly alibi'd 24/7? I would guess that it would be a tiny minority and I wouldn't be surprised if the answer were zero.
For example, even if you have a life partner that you sleep with every night, they cannot testify as to what happened when they were asleep. They can vouch that they did not wake up but that is about it. Even if they are light sleepers, there is always the possibility that they just didn't wake up, they were slipped a sleep aid, etc.
gibby207
07-08-2010, 01:47 AM
Not "convicting" her (Terri) publicly is all well and good but I know for a fact that many people have never given CA the benefit of the doubt for even a moment. I'm not defending her (and I'm not her :) ) but I have always been disturbed by the fact that she has been labeled a "baby killer" in various mediums for a very long time now, when the trial is still a year away. She is nearly always lumped together with Susan Smith, Andres Yates, and others who have benn convicted and/or confessed to murdering their children.
I know we are all pretty careful here but some of the other sites are really horrendous about not only accusing but convicting people on the internet. One of the FB sites set up for Kyron has several people implicating a possible accomplice, or at the very least, a possible lover, by name, and I find it so appalling and upsetting I want to find a way to let this person know that his name is being used in connection with this case.
Sorry for the tangent...I think it is OK to have formed an opinion on Terri based on all we've learned and I doubt that any such opinions is set in stone.
See, that's why yer one of my faves!! I really don't read other sites, other comments, or anything. I have, a few times, and yes, it's bad. It's bad when you go on TMZ and read about what people say about Miss Lohan!! (Despite my own opinions on her... lol) I am a member of the Kyron FB site, but I don't read comments... I only jump on the news of which it brings. I used to read comments on things but figured out a while back that the Internet brings a lot of anonymity and things people would say if they were not, in fact, in front of you. I just ignore them now, as WS has made me purdy much a fact stickler. YOU help me remember that there are others out there reading and establishing an opinion not of WS standards, LE standards, or even fairly. YOU remind ME of what the public is saying. That's why yer one of my faves. You do some dirty work I'm not willing or able to do!! In order for me to remain objective, I gotta stay outta the dirt. I'm easily swayed by emotions (it's just how I am) and on WS... not a good thing!! Which is why you are one of my faves, cluci!! :D You help me see alternatives, in a nice way, with a bite of "I hate murdering child killers".... lol You have appropriate sarcasm!
shorty42404
07-08-2010, 01:52 AM
I don't hold an opinion about TH being innocent or guilty. I have leaned this way and that on the matter though but no conclusion. There are very little facts and a lot of speculation. I'm sleuthing just like all of you and coming up with theories or trying to "figure it all out" but there needs to be more factual evidence in order for me to be convinced either way.
Personally, people have assumed a lot of things about me before based on the outward appearance of things in my life but the things they assumed were completely false. And it felt horrible to be accused of things that I know I didn't do or have my character be attacked. If anything I can say this whole family has issues, that is pretty evident. The negative information that is coming out about TH definitely doesn't look good for her but again, it doesn't make her guilty in my book.
And one more thing, my hope is that she is innocent. Because I can't stand to see another story about a mother/family member/adult harming a little one, it's too much. I'm a mama and it just makes me ill and breaks my heart.
Blessings :heart:
sorrell skye
07-08-2010, 01:57 AM
It's late and I'm tired, but I'm going to post one more theory/reason why I believe Terri may not be guilty:
If Terri took and failed a polygraph, why would LE need her to take another? Do they need the indicator to show a higher degree of deception? I've always wondered if in her first polygraph she either passed or showed inconclusive, much to the surprise of LE. Now, there are reports that Terri showed deception on one question on her first polygraph, which is odd to me. If she abducted and murdered Kyron or orchestrated this whole event, how does she only show deception on ONE question?
Link to claim in article:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/landscaper_wore_wire_asked_ter.html
There was likely a string of questions related to Kyron's disappearance, and so it seems odd to me that if she harmed him, she would only show deception on one question. I'm thinking they asked if she took him to school, if she left without him, if she knows where he is, if she knows if he is deceased, if she was on Suavie Island that day, etc. Anyway, is it possible that LE lied to TH, KH, DY, and TY about the results of TH's polygraph based on the cell phone ping information as a way to put pressure on her in the hopes of eliciting a confession?
If the claim is true, does anyone else find the claim of her showing deception on only one question, odd?
If the entire assumption of Terri's guilt hinges on cell phone ping information or inconsistencies, I'm going to be very uncomfortable with the handling of this case.
From the same link:
Terri Horman has taken two polygraph tests, after authorities said a key answer on the first exam found her deceptive.
I wonder if her response on the "key answer" during the 2nd poly was found to be deceptive, as well, or if her answer was found to be truthful, or was found to be inconclusive. Interesting how that bit of info was omitted.
I'm curious what the key question was.
And yes, I also find it odd that she was found to be deceptive on only one question. That doesn't establish a pattern of deceit as far as the poly goes.
Not that poly results are considered evidence, but then that dead horse has already been beaten to a leathery pulp.
gibby207
07-08-2010, 02:00 AM
BBM
Looking at the innermost circle and moving out is a logical way of organising an investigation. It is a method that has many merits.
But it also has a flaw, a big one: what do you do if someone in that innermost circle cannot be cleared? Well, you start concentrating more effort on that one person.
The reason this is a flaw is because someone can be factually innocent of any wrongdoing at all and still be unable to be cleared.
How many people posting here could be convincingly alibi'd 24/7? I would guess that it would be a tiny minority and I wouldn't be surprised if the answer were zero.
For example, even if you have a life partner that you sleep with every night, they cannot testify as to what happened when they were asleep. They can vouch that they did not wake up but that is about it. Even if they are light sleepers, there is always the possibility that they just didn't wake up, they were slipped a sleep aid, etc.
You are soooooo right!!! But as much as you and I can question it, it's how LE rolls! I fear the day I'd be asked such questions and could hold alibis and standards needed to clear me. I hope such a day never happens!!! I don't hate defense attorneys for that reason! (And, I have relatives who are defense attorneys... lol) My husband? Whom I've know for 18 years, married for 15, RARELY knows the ins and outs of what's going on around here! It's no fault of his, just his makeup and how our family is. I fear that, actually... I would even have a problem identifying our daughters' sleeping clothes on a given night, as each day it changes, but yet each day is the same. They all blend at a point when you are day-to-day. They change clothes so often (girls) it's hard to keep track!
It's how it is, though, unfortunate as it may be....I'm with Marc Klaas: The sooner they can get you off suspicions of YOU, the better. It seems to me the suspicions never left Terri. Now, it may be uncalled for... I have no ace in this hole. But it is what it is. And... I'm for finding Kyron. That's point blank it.
All in all, I agree what you say!
butterfly1978
07-08-2010, 03:31 AM
I just wanted to comment on the title of the thread as some feel it is important.
The title of the thread is What makes you think Terri is innocent? It is a question seeing as how it is not specific of Kyrons disappearance, it can also be What makes you think she is innocent of the MFH plot, or whatever the case maybe. It is a generic question and those who are upset about the title need to chill. It is all over the news, in all the papers even in people Magazine that the implication is there that Terri is guilty of something, the OP simply asks why you think she is innocent. In other words it is the other side of whats being posted EVERYWHERE!
So lets not find little things to argue about, this is a good thread, it helps balance things out. bickering is what gets threads closed, and it irritates people hen threads are closed when they have invested thier time and thoughts into them.... So as I tell my kids PLEASE PICK YOUR BATTLES!
Kay, I will step off my soap box now.
Back to your regular scheduled programing.
BlOnDe_GuRrL
07-08-2010, 03:37 AM
I think people put too much into the failed polygraph.
There's a good reason why they're not admissible in court.. and that is because they're unreliable. Any little thing can trigger a false deceptive signal.... or if the person taking the test has convinced themselves that the lie is indeed true... or they're just THAT good, well then they're not going to show deception.
butterfly1978
07-08-2010, 03:44 AM
I cant say for sure that she is guilty of anything including the MFH plot, but something with her is not right and I cant put my finger on it, she very well could be 1000 percent innocent of all involvement in anything criminal, but if she were it seems that she would be cleared by now, or at least not have this cloud of suspision hanging over her.
Donjeta
07-08-2010, 04:14 AM
I guess I sorta wish for Terri to be guilty because LE and the rest of her family have clearly singled her out as suspicious IMO and if she knows nothing about what happened it would be a great injustice. Either LE would be handling it badly or someone had done a very good job of trying to implicate her for something she didn't do. I don't want that to happen.
I guess knowing for certain that she lied about her whereabouts the day Kyron disappeared (cell pings, surveillanve cameras, sightings etc.) would be the case clincher for me. There just is no excuse lying when a child's life may be at stake.
A lot of the other stuff might be just background noise to distract. I don't care about Facebook (haven't even seen it). I don't care about gym. You can post on the internet and work out without being guilty of anything. I don't put much stock on the reliability of polygraphs and without knowing the questions knowing the result is non-information anyway. Without knowing the nature of their relationship it is impossible to know if the landscaper could possibly have ulterior motives for lying, such as revenge, covering for himself, being paid to. If there were problems in the marriage Kaine might have seen his chance of getting a RO and eliminating her out of his life and making her look like the villain in the process even if he wasn't convinced that she was trying to get him killed. I saw some red flags in her body language in the presser but it does not mean that she is guilty of anything in my mind; a lot of strangeness may be caused if you're trying to play happy families who just happen to have a child missing and the reality is that everybody on that stage has been at odds with each other for years.
I don't care about the family photos, they could go either way and it's not proof of anything to me. Happy family or not, most people take photos of the good moments and not the bad ones that show their family at their worst, and if they have a family member missing they don't let the the bad photos be published. Photos may be posed and arranged for a certain effect too and many that we have seen have a posed quality, IMO.
The blended family article didn't sit well with me because Desiree denied some of the information given there and, well, if you're caught lying once you'll always be suspected. Granted, the article didn't cite Terri and Kaine as a source, just their relatives and connections, but it seems like Terri and Kaine were the ones who benefited in the wrong information being published and might have been the original source somewhere down the line (just my speculation though). It just makes me wonder that if people are going to great lengths to portray the family as the perfect happy combination and a detail of it is not true, is the rest of it true either?
froginTtown
07-08-2010, 04:17 AM
In the begining, I was on the fence.... Then LE passed out those fliers, I thought, wow, they must have something really incriminating on her to publicly ask for info. Then came the 911 calls, Kaine leaving, divorce and RO put against her. But, what really did it was when they took the baby and did not even give Terri any supervised visitation.. I sat up for nights, thinking she was definatly guilty and waiting for an arrest.. I was even watching the scanner thread..
Then came the botched MFH sting...thats when I started realizing something is going wrong here....
They took her cell phone and computer..
Checked the truck twice..
Passed out fliers..
Gave her 2 polygraphs..
Took all visitation of the baby away..
Countless questioning..
Intended to arrest her the day of the MFH sting..
and surely under 24 hour survielance..
With all this..they still don't have enough evidence to arrest her...???
Something is wrong here...!! I hope that LE has not tunnel visioned on just Terri..
MOO.... JMO Oh,, and I'm back on my fence too... :p
seekingjustice**
07-08-2010, 04:23 AM
This really has to be the oddest case I've ever followed.
I'm finding it difficult to make any sort of solid determination atm, without more facts.
Usually I find I have some sort of idea or theory that just seems to evolve or dissolve as the evidence comes in. But with this case, well it's just so different. It's all over the place. First I thought it was 'opportunist sex offender', then I moved onto maybe 'angry step brother', then it was 'maybe the neighbor', then ... oh lord, so who knows, but sadly, I will not be at all suprised to find out that 'Terri' played a huge role in whatever has happened to our 'little boy'!
Trident
07-08-2010, 06:49 AM
This really has to be the oddest case I've ever followed.
Respectfully snipped
This is an odd case, although convoluted is the word I would use. Right from the start, the silence of ALL the parents, step and otherwise, was deafening, and the "no comment" from LE made it play like a grade B spy movie. Since then things haven't improved much.
At the first PC with the parents, the stepmother got my kinky meter vibrating big time. There was just something off about her. However, as time went on and we got to hear from some of the other players, the kinky needle began turning in weird circles. Then, LE circulates the questionaire with the white truck and Terri's picture. It was like they handed out do-it-yourself dart boards with Terri's picture as the bulls eye. The way that questionaire was done seems aimed at making Terri look guilty.
Enter the landscaper - how many months later? Now add the well-thought out sting, landscaper with a wire and/or undercover cop trying to trap Terri into admitting she'd solisited murder for hire. That amateurish ploy didn't raise my opinion of the powers that be in any way. Hell, if I were Terri, I'd not only have cut it short, I'd have called 911 to get the whole mess hauled out of my yard.
I don't know who's guilty, and I don't know who's innocent, but I do know there seems to be a lot more, possibly explosive, background information on everyone that we aren't privy to. Right now, only Terri is being stuck out there like a big old bird for the public to shoot arrows at, and when I see LE doing that, I get suspicious, very suspicious. I don't like being fed bread crumbs, or dots, I want facts, and I want ALL the facts, not just the ones that may fit someone's pet theory.
My opinion only
Meagain
07-08-2010, 07:10 AM
Why is it assumed just because LE didn't name her a POI or arrest her yet - that they either don't have enough evidence, or they don't suspect/plan to arrest her.
It's often a clear perp is not arrested for a period of time. It means nothing. You know they are watching her.
Emeralgem
07-08-2010, 07:14 AM
What makes ME think Terri Horman is innocent?
Thus far.. Nothing..JMO
DairyGirl
07-08-2010, 07:19 AM
Why is it assumed just because LE didn't name her a POI or arrest her yet - that they either don't have enough evidence, or they don't suspect/plan to arrest her.
It's often a clear perp is not arrested for a period of time. It means nothing. You know they are watching her.
I saw a news report yesterday that said they were monitoring her every move,every cell phone call, every landline call, both incoming and outgoing. They probably have her house bugged and her car tracked. I don't know what they expect to find. I am sure she is aware of it all and keeping very quiet.
Trident
07-08-2010, 07:26 AM
I saw a news report yesterday that said they were monitoring her every move,every cell phone call, every landline call, both incoming and outgoing. They probably have her house bugged and her car tracked. I don't know what they expect to find. I am sure she is aware of it all and keeping very quiet.
This is your tax dollars at work, and we had all better hope we never find ourselves in a similar situation.
Like I said before, I don't know if TH is innocent, or guilty, but I do think it would behoove LE to cast their net a little bit wider - who knows, they may catch a perp they never suspected before.
My opinion only
GrainneDhu
07-08-2010, 07:36 AM
You are soooooo right!!! But as much as you and I can question it, it's how LE rolls! I fear the day I'd be asked such questions and could hold alibis and standards needed to clear me. I hope such a day never happens!!! I don't hate defense attorneys for that reason! (And, I have relatives who are defense attorneys... lol) My husband? Whom I've know for 18 years, married for 15, RARELY knows the ins and outs of what's going on around here! It's no fault of his, just his makeup and how our family is. I fear that, actually... I would even have a problem identifying our daughters' sleeping clothes on a given night, as each day it changes, but yet each day is the same. They all blend at a point when you are day-to-day. They change clothes so often (girls) it's hard to keep track!
BBM
I totally agree!
I bolded your comment about how the day to day blends in because I think it is completely normal and true, but it is something that can be used to make someone look really, really bad.
Say a kid disappears and the parents are vauge or even disagree as to what the kid was wearing last. I have no doubt that LE and the general public would jump all over such a discrepancy as highly suspicious.
And yet, you're right. The older they get, the more kids change clothes and what with each day being much the same as the next, it can be difficult to remember accurately exactly what they wore last.
There would be a completely innocent explanation but it could look really suspicious.
It's how it is, though, unfortunate as it may be....I'm with Marc Klaas: The sooner they can get you off suspicions of YOU, the better. It seems to me the suspicions never left Terri. Now, it may be uncalled for... I have no ace in this hole. But it is what it is. And... I'm for finding Kyron. That's point blank it.
All in all, I agree what you say!
As I recall, Mark Klaas had a pretty good alibi for the night Polly was grabbed, he didn't match the description her two friends gave and he took one polygraph, which he passed. So he is speaking from the vantage point of someone who went into the investigation looking pretty good and was ruled out very quickly.
I have to wonder, what would have happened had Mark Klaas not had a good alibi, had he somewhat resembled Richard Davis and had his polygraph test results been found inconclusive or even guilty. Any of those things could have happened and he still been completely innocent.
What if the investigation had focused on him for a couple months or longer? Would he then feel that unlimited cooperation was the best policy?
Or might he feel, like the 255 factually innocent convicts exonerated by Project Innocence, that unlimited cooperation with LE could be both personally harmful and not helpful in finding the actual perpetrator?
I am not putting Marc Klaas down. I'm just trying to point out that one's personal experiences may tint the advice one gives to others.
froginTtown
07-08-2010, 07:44 AM
I'm not counting her innocent... In fact, I'm not counting anyone in the whole world innocent... but IRCC, witch trials have been over for years now... Are they making a come back.??? Seems so... There is a female talking head who comes on at 8:00 and 10:00 pm.. that I almost can't even watch anymore because of this reason... She through Crystal Sheffield under the bus, but yet claims last week, that the only way she can get her child to eat is to feed her in the bathtub..??? :shocked2: I was shocked she said that.... If any other parent would have said that..she would have ranted....
ella971
07-08-2010, 07:53 AM
How wonderful it would be to prove my gut wrong. I hope she is innocent and we can find him alive and safe.
rosiebean
07-08-2010, 08:09 AM
It's late and I'm tired, but I'm going to post one more theory/reason why I believe Terri may not be guilty:
If Terri took and failed a polygraph, why would LE need her to take another? Do they need the indicator to show a higher degree of deception? I've always wondered if in her first polygraph she either passed or showed inconclusive, much to the surprise of LE. Now, there are reports that Terri showed deception on one question on her first polygraph, which is odd to me. If she abducted and murdered Kyron or orchestrated this whole event, how does she only show deception on ONE question?
Link to claim in article:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/landscaper_wore_wire_asked_ter.html
There was likely a string of questions related to Kyron's disappearance, and so it seems odd to me that if she harmed him, she would only show deception on one question. I'm thinking they asked if she took him to school, if she left without him, if she knows where he is, if she knows if he is deceased, if she was on Suavie Island that day, etc. Anyway, is it possible that LE lied to TH, KH, DY, and TY about the results of TH's polygraph based on the cell phone ping information as a way to put pressure on her in the hopes of eliciting a confession?
If the claim is true, does anyone else find the claim of her showing deception on only one question, odd?
If the entire assumption of Terri's guilt hinges on cell phone ping information or inconsistencies, I'm going to be very uncomfortable with the handling of this case.
The article doesn't say she showed deception on only one question:
Terri Horman has taken two polygraph tests, after authorities said a key answer on the first exam found her deceptive.
Saying that she was deceptive on a key answer (say, do you know where Kyron is) does not preclude that she was deceptive on other answers, say, those verifying her alibi (did you stop by Target to pick up diapers).
Also, it is not unusual for a perp in a domestic situation to fail on only one key question. Susan Smith, for example, did well on her poly until asked if she knew where her children were, and that answer indicated deception.
Now, if the only thing LE has is a failed poly, then I'd be very critical of their investigation. I'm guessing that they have a lot more...IMO, they probably have witnesses who place TH with Kyron leaving the school (walking to the door leading outside), witnesses who place TH with Kyron outside of the school, several witnesses who heard TH say that Kyron had a doctor's appointment (yet no appointment was made at a doctor's office), a story that changed after being presented with new facts garnered after interviewing witnesses (I left him as he was walking to his class, no wait, I walked him to the door leading outside and then said goodbye and watched him walk up the stairs, no wait, we went out to the truck to get something he'd forgotten, and then I walked him back to just outside of his class), evidence that TH was not where she said she was later that morning, etc.
I don't think a lack of arrest at this point is evidence of a poor investigation or evidence that LE has no real evidence. LE usually prefers to have the best case possible before making an arrest, and that usually means either a confession (LE knew Susan Smith's story was factually wrong regarding the red light she claimed to have stopped at, but didn't arrest her until she confessed), or a body (LE was certain that Scott Peterson had harmed Laci, but didn't arrest him for months, not until they had conclusive proof she'd been killed). I do not have access to the evidence they have, I only have what's in the public domain (which is very little at this point) and other investigations to use as a reference...and this case is looking very much like a circumstantial one at this point, very frustrating for us on the outside, I'm sure very frustrating for LE, and most of all, beyond frustrating for those who love and are closest to Kryon.
2goldfish
07-08-2010, 08:10 AM
this case about irritates me to NO end. I dont have enough info to even hazard a guess at anything!
I did immediately suspect TH and still do because children do NOT fall into time space continuums at school.
but I to this day have not received any info that sways me any which way.
Polygraphs are worthless, so I'm not swayed in any way there by anyone that took/takes one.
but even if she did want to have her husband murdered, that doesnt mean she did anything to kyron.
LE says nothing, the other family says nothing, TH says nothing, I dont know anything at all.
froginTtown
07-08-2010, 09:02 AM
I don't understand how this has all been discounted or ignored.... Especially after watching the video... He seems so sure of himself... and I could see how he may be confused about the "substitute" part... but surely, someone had said all that....I don't know why a kid of this age would lie about something like this....
......................http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/local/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx..................
Paintr
07-08-2010, 09:07 AM
I have been following this case since Kyron disappeared and I am no wiser now than I was that first day. lol!
I have wandered the net reading posts and news articles. Many seem to be concentrating on Terri and only Terri. I have no idea if she is guilty or not. I am just amazed at the speed with which so many jumped to the conclusion that she is a monster.
LE in this case has released very little info. The media has based almost every article on 'unnamed sources', rumor has run rampant, and every vague tidbit has been pounced on as if it were solid fact.
I have never suspected Terri but my perp perception may be off. I am leaning towards a stranger (with vague connections to the Horman family) abduction. If LE charges Terri with harming Kyron, I will bow to their superior knowledge.
'Till then, could those on the fence please make a little room as I want to sit with you all and wait for facts. :)
keeponsearching
07-08-2010, 09:10 AM
I find everything about this situation so odd...
As I have said in another post. Anytime I go to a school, early or late, during the day time, I will always see at least someone outside. You can't tell me no one saw Terri leave. At that time, I don't believe it.
If Terri did leave with Kyron she would be sitting behind bars right about now.
I don't know how cell phone pings work, so I really can't even begin to explain the pings, unless she was close by. Its not that far from the school.
I don't know if I believe the lawn man. Maybe Terri wanted to hire someone to clean up the yard and not tell her husband, I think that sounds like a good idea, and my husband would say NO. I just can't see calling a bunch of lawn guys and saying hey do you kill husbands too.
I think with the first family pc, terri did look out of place. Imagine the guilt that she has that she didn't walk Kyron to his classroom....
I don't believe in polys, so I won't even go there.
I want Kryon home. And as some have said, I would rather it be a family member, than a stranger.....
I was just thinking, if Terri said she was at the school at the same time her cell pinged on the island how is that possible? I think we should brainstorm this .
Guilty or Not, I don't know.
keeponsearching
07-08-2010, 09:12 AM
I don't understand how this has all been discounted or ignored.... Especially after watching the video... He seems so sure of himself... and I could see how he may be confused about the "substitute" part... but surely, someone had said all that....I don't know why a kid of this age would lie about something like this....
......................http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/local/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx..................
Didn't they have help with the groups? Maybe a mom of a child stayed behind to watch/help with the class. Which makes me wonder did the teacher of that class leave for the day?? Or did she come back.
Donjeta
07-08-2010, 09:21 AM
I don't understand how this has all been discounted or ignored.... Especially after watching the video... He seems so sure of himself... and I could see how he may be confused about the "substitute" part... but surely, someone had said all that....I don't know why a kid of this age would lie about something like this....
......................http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/local/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx..................
Why do we think his account has been discounted? The school spokesman said there were no substitute teachers but I haven't heard anyone say that there was nobody who said these things.
Something I noticed the first time watching the video: The reporter says that TP may be the last child to see Kyron that day. Did an adult see him after TP did?
Paintr
07-08-2010, 09:30 AM
I find everything about this situation so odd...
As I have said in another post. Anytime I go to a school, early or late, during the day time, I will always see at least someone outside. You can't tell me no one saw Terri leave. At that time, I don't believe it.
If Terri did leave with Kyron she would be sitting behind bars right about now.
I don't know how cell phone pings work, so I really can't even begin to explain the pings, unless she was close by. Its not that far from the school.
I don't know if I believe the lawn man. Maybe Terri wanted to hire someone to clean up the yard and not tell her husband, I think that sounds like a good idea, and my husband would say NO. I just can't see calling a bunch of lawn guys and saying hey do you kill husbands too.
I think with the first family pc, terri did look out of place. Imagine the guilt that she has that she didn't walk Kyron to his classroom....
I don't believe in polys, so I won't even go there.
I want Kryon home. And as some have said, I would rather it be a family member, than a stranger.....
I was just thinking, if Terri said she was at the school at the same time her cell pinged on the island how is that possible? I think we should brainstorm this .
Guilty or Not, I don't know.
I am with you on the 'I don't know' part. There is just so much rumor and emotion in this case and not enough facts,
I can't understand why so many jumped on the flyers as proof of Terri's guilt. Shouldn't LE try to discover what happened at school that morning? They had to verify Terri's version of events that morning as she was the last person who stated then that she saw Kyron.
We have no idea what answers LE were given to their questions. A dozen people may have stated they saw Terri leave alone and Kyron was still at school. At least as many may have said that Terri dragged Kyron out to the truck, kicking and screaming. The people who have answered LE's flyer are not talking and neither is LE. We don't know.
LE may have cleared Terri or may have every reason to think she is guilty, so I am back where I started...on that dang fence.
Mylou
07-08-2010, 09:45 AM
I believe in innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent.
I have seen nothing yet to make me believe she is anything other then innocent.
She has not even been charged with any crime.
I've never been one to just go with the flow according to how the media protrays anything or what public opinion is. Im too hard headed that way. I beleive in thinking for myself and coming to my own conclusions, not fitting in with the crowd.
I admire the fact that she pled guilty to a dui, not many do.
Aedrys
07-08-2010, 09:51 AM
How wonderful it would be to prove my gut wrong. I hope she is innocent and we can find him alive and safe.
This is exactly my problem, and I admit I've gotten heated because of it. I don't mean to offend anyone, but my gut keeps telling me she's guilty. Unfortunately, my gut won't hold up in a court of law. There has to be solid evidence that she did this to get a conviction.
I guess I am a cynic, and have watched way too many cases where if they are looking at someone, it usually turns out to be that person in the end. I also know there are cases where people are wrongly accused, and I do not want that happening here either. I will feel terrible if I turns out I am wrong about Terri. I don't want the wrong person in jail for kidnapping/murdering Kyron. Heck, we don't even know if he's dead or alive for sure much less who may have him or murdered him. *sigh*
I've also seen cases where the dad is very quickly accused, and a lot of the time the police are wrong and the dad is tainted for life. The only things we've heard about Kaine have come from Terri's friends and Terri's family. Maybe a little from DY about him cooperating, but that's it. We may have only speculation, possibly leaked LE info, Kaine taking the baby and divorcing and RO'ing Terri, gut reaction, and innuendo about TH, but IMO, we have a lot more about Terri than anyone else. In fact, all we have is info on Terri and no matter how you look at, true or not, guilty or not, it does not make her look good.
I will admit, though, that what we have on Terri is not enough. I hope that LE does make a decision that week and we finally get some answers as to whether she is guilty or not once and for all. I know, wishful thinking!
I will also take a step back here and try to be more patient. My gut sometimes makes me so impatient! It's so hard in such a bizarre case to just sit and wait, you know?
butterfly1978
07-08-2010, 09:58 AM
You have to remember that just because they have not named Terri a POI or suspect doesn't mean a whole lot, and just because they havent arrested her doesn't mean they are clueless. Look at Drew Peterson, and Susan Powells husband. They were/are POI and or suspects and Josh has still not been arrested and Drew was only arrested about a year ago. With out a body it makes things difficult, not inpossable but difficult, it would be bad if they arrested her on a "whim" and can't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt and then later find something that ties her directly and have to let her go due to double jeoperdy
Aedrys
07-08-2010, 10:02 AM
You have to remember that just because they have not named Terri a POI or suspect doesn't mean a whole lot, and just because they havent arrested her doesn't mean they are clueless. Look at Drew Peterson, and Susan Powells husband. They were/are POI and or suspects and Josh has still not been arrested and Drew was only arrested about a year ago. With out a body it makes things difficult, not inpossable but difficult, it would be bad if they arrested her on a "whim" and can't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt and then later find something that ties her directly and have to let her go due to double jeoperdy
ITA with what you said. And that last part, Butterfly, would be my nightmare. There was a case in the 80's or 90's where a man murdered a woman, but was found innocent in court because the police didn't have enough evidence. After that he moved, and the people who bought his house, when tearing up old carpet to put in new carpet, found a bag with gruesome pictures of the murder in it. I think the man was even in some of the photographs. So basically he was guilty, but got away with it because there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. It still makes me shiver after all of this time. I do NOT want the LE arresting her and then not having enough to get a conviction.
froginTtown
07-08-2010, 10:22 AM
. .....Hop on....:blushing:
.
.... :waitasec::snooty::crazy::furious: :sick::angel::snooty::waitasec:
___l----------l---------l---------l__________
Donjeta
07-08-2010, 10:26 AM
As I recall, Mark Klaas had a pretty good alibi for the night Polly was grabbed, he didn't match the description her two friends gave and he took one polygraph, which he passed. So he is speaking from the vantage point of someone who went into the investigation looking pretty good and was ruled out very quickly.
I have to wonder, what would have happened had Mark Klaas not had a good alibi, had he somewhat resembled Richard Davis and had his polygraph test results been found inconclusive or even guilty. Any of those things could have happened and he still been completely innocent.
What if the investigation had focused on him for a couple months or longer? Would he then feel that unlimited cooperation was the best policy?
Or might he feel, like the 255 factually innocent convicts exonerated by Project Innocence, that unlimited cooperation with LE could be both personally harmful and not helpful in finding the actual perpetrator?
I am not putting Marc Klaas down. I'm just trying to point out that one's personal experiences may tint the advice one gives to others.
I think it's a matter of probabilities. If you've got nothing to hide it could be that you can best convince LE of that state of things if you hide nothing. It may not always work, but if it works 70% of the time it's a better bet than being uncooperative.
It's more complicated if you do have something to hide.
Paintr
07-08-2010, 10:27 AM
ITA with what you said. And that last part, Butterfly, would be my nightmare. There was a case in the 80's or 90's where a man murdered a woman, but was found innocent in court because the police didn't have enough evidence. After that he moved, and the people who bought his house, when tearing up old carpet to put in new carpet, found a bag with gruesome pictures of the murder in it. I think the man was even in some of the photographs. So basically he was guilty, but got away with it because there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. It still makes me shiver after all of this time. I do NOT want the LE arresting her and then not having enough to get a conviction.
Aedrys. That case you described was terrible. :(
I hope if Terri did this she never sees the light of day again.I wish the same for whoever did this, Terri or someone else.
I have great faith in LE. I am sure they are doing great work on this case. The problem I have is the interpretations that some are putting on what LE is doing.
LE have stated that Terri is co operating and they are not naming anyone as a POI. There are those that immediately say.'Yeah, but they don't really mean that....they really mean something else'. LE sends an e mail stating this info didn't come from us but some then discount that e mail and say that 'unnamed sources' were really LE leaking info to put Terri under pressure.
I even read one opinion that stated that even if LE arrest someone else in Kyron's disappearance, they will never believe Terri is innocent? HUH? :waitasec:
In the begining, my 'gut' said that a stranger took Kyron. Who knows?
Paintr
07-08-2010, 10:32 AM
I think it's a matter of probabilities. If you've got nothing to hide it could be that you can best convince LE of that state of things if you hide nothing. It may not always work, but if it works 70% of the time it's a better bet than being uncooperative.
It's more complicated if you do have something to hide.
Unfortunately, everyone has something they would rather hide. If Terri was trying to hide an affair, for example, she may have avoided telling LE everything about her day in the begining. Even if she then broke down and admitted the truth of the affair, the rest of her answers are now suspect because she originally lied. Just a thought...
theissueathand
07-08-2010, 10:34 AM
IMOO
There is no more public "evidence" pointing to Terri as the person who took Kyron as there was on the first day.
Yes, we have heard a lot of dirt, there have been skeletons unearthed, botched stings and the like but what I find strange is that the cops were ready to arrest her for a murder for hire plot but not the disappearance of her seven year old stepson.
This whole case makes me scratch my head, I can't even think about it too much anymore, it's too upsetting to think that someone out there knows where this precious boy is and is too stubborn and prideful and selfish to bring him home where he belongs.
FWIW though, I've thought Terri looked/acted/seemed guilty as all get out from the start... but it's all based on gut feeling, actions by her not relating directly to Kyron's disappearance, and the way that the family projected in all of the PC's including the one she was involved in.
Calliope
07-08-2010, 10:36 AM
Aedrys. That case you described was terrible. :(
I hope if Terri did this she never sees the light of day again.I wish the same for whoever did this, Terri or someone else.
I have great faith in LE. I am sure they are doing great work on this case. The problem I have is the interpretations that some are putting on what LE is doing.
LE have stated that Terri is co operating and they are not naming anyone as a POI. There are those that immediately say.'Yeah, but they don't really mean that....they really mean something else'. LE sends an e mail stating this info didn't come from us but some then discount that e mail and say that 'unnamed sources' were really LE leaking info to put Terri under pressure.
I even read one opinion that stated that even if LE arrest someone else in Kyron's disappearance, they will never believe Terri is innocent? HUH? :waitasec:
In the begining, my 'gut' said that a stranger took Kyron. Who knows?
BBM
Absolutely. Her life is ruined and there are those who will never believe she's anything but guilty. IF she's guilty, then I really don't care about that. IF she's innocent, then I think we should all take a step back and question what happened here.
tlcya
07-08-2010, 10:44 AM
Some of the things that set off some folks "hink meter" did not do so for me. FB posts, when pictures were posted, etc. just didn't get me hot and bothered the way they did some. Which left me on the fence. I was concerned LE couldn't just clear her and be done with it, but willing to give the benefit of the doubt til some sort of evidence led me otherwise.
When the divorce papers and RO were filed I nearly climbed down off the fence, figuring there must be SOME reason behind it that related to Kyron.
Well, now we have it in the form of a landscaper (or two? or three? don't even get me started on how fishy all these landscapers seem to me) who claims Terri tried to hire him to kill her husband.
Here's the thing - I just don't buy that Terri was running around approaching random landscapers to attempt to hire a hit man. It just screams of the ridiculous to me. Particularly because at the time she was supposed to be doing this there was a major breaking national story in the news about the wife who tried to hire a hitman to kill her husband and LE led her to believe it had been carried out. We all saw the footage over and over on multiple news outlets of said wife boo hooing and carrying on while LE watched, knowing full well the man was alive and well. And you can bet your bippy - SO DID TERRI. I just find it impossible to swallow that anyone would be that incredibly stupid, let alone a college educated former educator.
And to me the landscaper's story seems a bit convenient. "Uh yeah, she's bad news, she wanted me to kill her husband. What's that? Well no, officer, I never thought to call anybody or report it. People ask me to murder someone everyday, I just don't even take it seriously anymore." (my own sarcastic paraphrasing, not a direct quote)
IMO - bunk
daisy7
07-08-2010, 10:45 AM
Aedrys. That case you described was terrible. :(
I hope if Terri did this she never sees the light of day again.I wish the same for whoever did this, Terri or someone else.
I have great faith in LE. I am sure they are doing great work on this case. The problem I have is the interpretations that some are putting on what LE is doing.
LE have stated that Terri is co operating and they are not naming anyone as a POI. There are those that immediately say.'Yeah, but they don't really mean that....they really mean something else'. LE sends an e mail stating this info didn't come from us but some then discount that e mail and say that 'unnamed sources' were really LE leaking info to put Terri under pressure.
I even read one opinion that stated that even if LE arrest someone else in Kyron's disappearance, they will never believe Terri is innocent? HUH? :waitasec:
In the begining, my 'gut' said that a stranger took Kyron. Who knows?
Paintr, your post summed up my feelings almost word for word!!
twzzlrgirl
07-08-2010, 10:59 AM
If someone posted this already, I apologize in advance.
Take a look at the article from good morning america:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/search-kyron-horman-complicated-apparent-botched-sting-step/story?id=11114051
All I can say is, this case is amazing to me in the number of "different stories" we hear almost on a daily basis. So, Terri wasn't calling about a custody issue, she was calling because some guy was demanding money and harassing her? The same landscaper who she supposedly hired to kill her husband? How was this story posted from so many "reliable" sources that one of the 911 calls was about custodial issues???
Either this case is getting more complicated by the day, or these ridiculous "sources" are making stuff up or reporting what they surmise, and not what they KNOW. And it certainly calls into question, in my mind, whether Terri is guilty, or whether she is being hung out to dry so that it looks like LE has a suspect.
This is a three-ring circus already, and I'm thinking finding Kyron has taken an absolute back seat to all the nonsense going on.
Donjeta
07-08-2010, 11:00 AM
Unfortunately, everyone has something they would rather hide. If Terri was trying to hide an affair, for example, she may have avoided telling LE everything about her day in the begining. Even if she then broke down and admitted the truth of the affair, the rest of her answers are now suspect because she originally lied. Just a thought...
Well, that would be somewhat deserved...IMO. If a child is missing that you claim to love as your own and you mislead the investigation just because you're ashamed of having a bit on the side... It's not even illegal to have sex outside of marriage any more, and I think the missing child should take the priority over petty things like that.
Maybe you could negotiate with LE that they consider your alibi "part of the investigation" and don't reveal it to your husband unless it's got to be disclosed at the trial.
Paintr
07-08-2010, 11:03 AM
Paintr, your post summed up my feelings almost word for word!!
Thank you kindly, daisy. Last time I said something like this out loud, I almost got my head handed to me. This case is bringing out the emotions big time.
Paintr
07-08-2010, 11:07 AM
Well, that would be somewhat deserved...IMO. If a child is missing that you claim to love as your own and you mislead the investigation just because you're ashamed of having a bit on the side... It's not even illegal to have sex outside of marriage any more, and I think the missing child should take the priority over petty things like that.
Maybe you could negotiate with LE that they consider your alibi "part of the investigation" and don't reveal it to your husband unless it's got to be disclosed at the trial.
Hey! I totally agree! I'd be babbling everything! They would have trouble shutting me up. LOL!
But some people panic and go into a funk and lie.
And some lie because they are guilty.
(I have no idea if Terri was having an affair, I just used that as an example)
Donjeta
07-08-2010, 11:08 AM
IMOO
There is no more public "evidence" pointing to Terri as the person who took Kyron as there was on the first day.
.
We have no right to expect LE to reveal their evidence at this point of the investigation. If they don't have something that points to Terri, I would like to hear a very good explanation why they seem to be happy to have her singled out as a not-quite-suspect-but-close in public. Are they okay with the family speaking to her in the pressers? Are they okay with Tony saying, Connect the dots? Are they okay with the interpretation the media has given to the RO and the flyers and all the other stuff that says "Terri"?
twzzlrgirl
07-08-2010, 11:12 AM
We have no right to expect LE to reveal their evidence at this point of the investigation. If they don't have something that points to Terri, I would like to hear a very good explanation why they seem to be happy to have her singled out as a not-quite-suspect-but-close in public. Are they okay with the family speaking to her in the pressers? Are they okay with Tony saying, Connect the dots? Are they okay with the interpretation the media has given to the RO and the flyers and all the other stuff that says "Terri"?
ITA!!!!! If she is not a suspect, as LE is saying, then they need to VERY clearly come out and say that. I understand they want to play their cards close to their vest, but IMOO, they have a an obligation to not sit back and see someone's life absolutely ruined by not stating enough to clear her.
If she turns out to be guilty, then fine. If she is innocent, then she is being allowed by all involved (including LE) to be hanged by the public, her family, and the press.
Ms Suzanne
07-08-2010, 11:12 AM
If someone posted this already, I apologize in advance.
Take a look at the article from good morning america:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/search-kyron-horman-complicated-apparent-botched-sting-step/story?id=11114051
All I can say is, this case is amazing to me in the number of "different stories" we hear almost on a daily basis. So, Terri wasn't calling about a custody issue, she was calling because some guy was demanding money and harassing her? The same landscaper who she supposedly hired to kill her husband? How was this story posted from so many "reliable" sources that one of the 911 calls was about custodial issues???
Either this case is getting more complicated by the day, or these ridiculous "sources" are making stuff up or reporting what they surmise, and not what they KNOW. And it certainly calls into question, in my mind, whether Terri is guilty, or whether she is being hung out to dry so that it looks like LE has a suspect.
This is a three-ring circus already, and I'm thinking finding Kyron has taken an absolute back seat to all the nonsense going on.
I agree.This all became about Kaine and not Kyron.They need to be looking for little Kyron.They need to find this little sweet little boy.This is very sad.
twzzlrgirl
07-08-2010, 11:16 AM
I agree.This all became about Kaine and not Kyron.They need to be looking for little Kyron.They need to find this little sweet little boy.This is very sad.
I was reading the news this morning and I am:furious:
Seriously...is anyone in the public (one of the most important sources of finding a missing child) even looking for Kyron anymore??? or is everyone so busy waiting for news that Terri did it (or the next big "bombshell" in this dysfunctional family) that his disappearance is being swept under the rug.
My paranoid mind is now taking all kinds of paths that I'd rather not go down. :banghead:
21merc7
07-08-2010, 11:20 AM
I was reading the news this morning and I am:furious:
Seriously...is anyone in the public (one of the most important sources of finding a missing child) even looking for Kyron anymore??? or is everyone so busy waiting for news that Terri did it (or the next big "bombshell" in this dysfunctional family) that his disappearance is being swept under the rug.
My paranoid mind is now taking all kinds of paths that I'd rather not go down. :banghead:
Agreed! If we have to hear Terri's dirt, I think we need to hear all of Kaine's, bio-mom, and step-dad's. Who took Kyron? Could be any of them, for any reason.
All are suspects to me.
Is anyone searching for Kyron? There is no news about that.
cypress
07-08-2010, 11:20 AM
If someone posted this already, I apologize in advance.
Take a look at the article from good morning america:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/search-kyron-horman-complicated-apparent-botched-sting-step/story?id=11114051
All I can say is, this case is amazing to me in the number of "different stories" we hear almost on a daily basis. So, Terri wasn't calling about a custody issue, she was calling because some guy was demanding money and harassing her? The same landscaper who she supposedly hired to kill her husband? How was this story posted from so many "reliable" sources that one of the 911 calls was about custodial issues???
Either this case is getting more complicated by the day, or these ridiculous "sources" are making stuff up or reporting what they surmise, and not what they KNOW. And it certainly calls into question, in my mind, whether Terri is guilty, or whether she is being hung out to dry so that it looks like LE has a suspect.
This is a three-ring circus already, and I'm thinking finding Kyron has taken an absolute back seat to all the nonsense going on.
If I'm not mistaken, there was a second 911 call late that same day (around 11pm), and the second call was about a custody issue.
tehcloser
07-08-2010, 11:24 AM
If I'm not mistaken, there was a second 911 call late that same day (around 11pm), and the second call was about a custody issue.
From that link, they said the first call was about some guy in a truck threatening her....so, either there were 3 calls or none was about custody.
From link:
KATU cited sources as saying that was the second call of the day. The first came minutes earlier to report that someone in a truck was threatening her.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/search-kyron-horman-complicated-apparent-botched-sting-step/story?id=11114051
GrainneDhu
07-08-2010, 11:25 AM
I think it's a matter of probabilities. If you've got nothing to hide it could be that you can best convince LE of that state of things if you hide nothing. It may not always work, but if it works 70% of the time it's a better bet than being uncooperative.
It's more complicated if you do have something to hide.
I'm not really thinking in terms of someone who has something to hide. I'm thinking in terms of someone who knows they have nothing to hide and has cooperated fully but remains under suspicion. To the point where the suspicion directed at them appears to be derailing the investigation altogether.
That is definitely not the situation that Mark Klaas faced, so I'm not certain that his widely known advice would hold true.
twzzlrgirl
07-08-2010, 11:25 AM
If I'm not mistaken, there was a second 911 call late that same day (around 11pm), and the second call was about a custody issue.
From the GMA article, they make it sound like the first call was about someone demanding money (10,000); the second call was about someone harassing her in a truck.
Admittedly, I am taking all news sources, even the supposedly reliable ones, with a huge grain of salt at this point. Who knows what's going on anymore? This case is making me so angry and frustrated...that poor little boy. I have a feeling this isn't the first time in his short life that he's taken a back seat to unbelievable drama.
GrainneDhu
07-08-2010, 11:30 AM
I think it's a matter of probabilities. If you've got nothing to hide it could be that you can best convince LE of that state of things if you hide nothing. It may not always work, but if it works 70% of the time it's a better bet than being uncooperative.
It's more complicated if you do have something to hide.
BBM
I just had a followup thought.
My sister contracted hepatitis B during a series of hospital visits two years ago. Statistics show that when an adult contracts hepatitis B, they have a 95% chance of clearing their system of the virus within six months.
Well, my sister was in the unlucky 5%. She is now classified as a chronic active carrier and will most likely have the disease until it kills her.
Ever since that happened, my views on probabilities have changed. A 95% chance no longer looks all that good to me because someone I love didn't make it.
And all this goes back to my original thought, which is that one's personal experiences tend to colour one's views and thus the advice that one gives.
GrainneDhu
07-08-2010, 11:45 AM
I even read one opinion that stated that even if LE arrest someone else in Kyron's disappearance, they will never believe Terri is innocent? HUH? :waitasec:
SBM
To this day, there are people who completely believe that Elizabeth Smart's father and/or uncle were responsible for her abduction. They refuse to believe her testimony or Wanda Barzee's admission of guilt (Brian Mitchell has yet to come to trial). They made their decision before she was found and nothing that has happened has been enough to shake their inner certainty.
In a way, I kind of admire that. My own inner certainty is never that solid and there are times when my life would be easier for me if it were.
cypress
07-08-2010, 11:50 AM
re: the 911 calls
A log of the calls revealed the first report came in at 5:18 p.m. and lasted 13 minutes. Dispatchers said the caller reported threats made inside the family's home in Multnomah County.
The second 911 call was made from the home at 11:39 p.m., and was recorded by dispatchers as a child custody issue.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/97550009.html
tehcloser
07-08-2010, 11:52 AM
re: the 911 calls
A log of the calls revealed the first report came in at 5:18 p.m. and lasted 13 minutes. Dispatchers said the caller reported threats made inside the family's home in Multnomah County.
The second 911 call was made from the home at 11:39 p.m., and was recorded by dispatchers as a child custody issue.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/97550009.html
Ooooo...conflicting media articles. I'm shocked I tell ya, shocked! :banghead:
CN2Souls
07-08-2010, 11:55 AM
I believe she is a person with many abandonment issues. I believe she has a heart for children, which is why she had become a teacher.
Teaching is not a Job someone would go into if he or she were narcissistic. This is a giving job with little thanks, does not pay much, and non-attention seeking.
However, I believe she is a perfectionist who feels only being 100% perfect she will receive the love that she longs for
.
She may have a hard time feeling loved and acceptance by people because of past issues and there for pushes people away, doing and being anything that she thinks they want her to be to attain their love.
She maybe vulnerable to people and will do just about anything they ask in order to receive and keep their love. Maybe seeking love from other sources, that are not so upstanding.
As far as the LS goes, most women who want to kill their husband for alleged affairs, Do it with their own bare hands.
Therefore, I believe, she is not guilty and being used and Framed.
Paintr
07-08-2010, 11:55 AM
SBM
To this day, there are people who completely believe that Elizabeth Smart's father and/or uncle were responsible for her abduction. They refuse to believe her testimony or Wanda Barzee's admission of guilt (Brian Mitchell has yet to come to trial). They made their decision before she was found and nothing that has happened has been enough to shake their inner certainty.
In a way, I kind of admire that. My own inner certainty is never that solid and there are times when my life would be easier for me if it were.
I know what you are saying. It would make life easier. :)
But I just can't understand. We process info and make a decision. If new info comes along or if our original info proves to be unreliable, then it is just bullheaded and close minded to refuse to even consider a change of decision. :waitasec:
cypress
07-08-2010, 11:57 AM
Ooooo...conflicting media articles. I'm shocked I tell ya, shocked! :banghead:
Yeah, but if you look at scanner information, the scanner information supports the 5:18 and 11:39 call times.
The 5:18 call was about the now infamous landscaper, and the 11:39 call was about baby K.
Justin Tyme
07-08-2010, 12:10 PM
From that link, they said the first call was about some guy in a truck threatening her....so, either there were 3 calls or none was about custody.
From link:
KATU cited sources as saying that was the second call of the day. The first came minutes earlier to report that someone in a truck was threatening her.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/search-kyron-horman-complicated-apparent-botched-sting-step/story?id=11114051
Here's my thoughts on this. First off was the guy in the truck threatening her before OR after the law was involved in the story. Was he doing this on his own? Also, has anyone considered that perhaps the arrangement was for him to take or kill Kyron and he changed the story that he was asked to kill the father as not to implicated himself in Kyron's disappearance? He knew that the law was already going to look at him so he changed the story of who he was hired to kill. If this is true that Terri tried to hire him for the purpose of a killing I think that she'd remain mute. From what I've read thus far, seems he told the law that she had also offered herself up...know what I mean and maybe since she didn't, could he have been PO'd enough to take and harm Kyron on his own accord as a way for payback to Terri. Just thoughts to ponder. It would be interesting to find out where and who she might have been with from the time she left the school until she returned home that day that Kyron came up missing.
twzzlrgirl
07-08-2010, 12:26 PM
re: the 911 calls
A log of the calls revealed the first report came in at 5:18 p.m. and lasted 13 minutes. Dispatchers said the caller reported threats made inside the family's home in Multnomah County.
The second 911 call was made from the home at 11:39 p.m., and was recorded by dispatchers as a child custody issue.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/97550009.html
My guess is this is correct, but then where did GMA get there info and why are they passing it off as fact???
Perhaps we've reached a breaking point in our "information superhighway."
Paintr
07-08-2010, 12:47 PM
My guess is this is correct, but then where did GMA get there info and why are they passing it off as fact???
Perhaps we've reached a breaking point in our "information superhighway."
I know that I an heartly sick of news reports based on 'sources' that are supposed to have some magic insider info. What happened to if you don't want to be quoted then don't offer an opinion or secret info. If they want to publish rumor and conjecture then label it as such.:banghead::banghead:
Astrella613
07-08-2010, 01:36 PM
The fact is that Terri is innocent until proven guilty. She shouldn't be getting "tried" in the media. That's not fair at all. My main concern however is still with bringing Kyron home.
mrsjonnob
07-08-2010, 02:25 PM
It is entirely possible that Kaine paid the landscape guy to claim Terri inquired about a hit. It is possible Kaine is a control freak who is settig up Terri in a carefully thought out plan to remove Terri from the picture while portraying himself as a victim. It is possible Terri has been emotionally abused and manipulated for years- and now her entire world is crumbling becuse she knows she is the focus of the investigation- her step son is missing, her husband and baby left and there is nothing she can do about it. Even while what little evidence there is is circumstancial, it is pretty damning. It took her 3 weeks to lawyer up- she didn't even do that until KH left with the baby! That isn't the behavior of a woman who was plotting the demise of her husband and step son.
JMO
twzzlrgirl
07-08-2010, 03:28 PM
It is entirely possible that Kaine paid the landscape guy to claim Terri inquired about a hit. It is possible Kaine is a control freak who is settig up Terri in a carefully thought out plan to remove Terri from the picture while portraying himself as a victim. It is possible Terri has been emotionally abused and manipulated for years- and now her entire world is crumbling becuse she knows she is the focus of the investigation- her step son is missing, her husband and baby left and there is nothing she can do about it. Even while what little evidence there is is circumstancial, it is pretty damning. It took her 3 weeks to lawyer up- she didn't even do that until KH left with the baby! That isn't the behavior of a woman who was plotting the demise of her husband and step son.
JMO
Adding to this: what better way for Kaine to get both kids and not have to pay a dime in child or spousal support. What judge is going to suggest that he pay a woman who "wanted him killed."
I'm just thinking out loud here: it seems that Kaine could be the one who (in two different ways) got both kids out of the house. Kyron is "snatched" and the baby is taken for "safety reasons." Hmmmm.....
Kaine could even be the one posting on her facebook page and on internet blogs. Not too difficult with the internet as your cover.
MOO -- I'm not now suggesting that Kaine did it. I'm just adding to the theory and beginning to wonder more and more about the reporting we've heard so far (and I'm using "reporting" extremely loosely).
RoughlyCollie
07-08-2010, 03:31 PM
Adding to this: what better way for Kaine to get both kids and not have to pay a dime in child or spousal support. What judge is going to suggest that he pay a woman who "wanted him killed."
I'm just thinking out loud here: it seems that Kaine could be the one who (in two different ways) got both kids out of the house. Kyron is "snatched" and the baby is taken for "safety reasons." Hmmmm.....
Short term marriage = short term alimony, if any
2 kids = cost of raising kids paid by KH whether directly (he has custody) or indirectly (child support).
= risk too high for a reasonable, intelligent person to take, compared to benefits, if any.
TXHOPE
07-08-2010, 03:43 PM
This may of been posted on another thread but did anyone else see the HLN preview a little bit ago for tonight's Nancy Grace? It said Nancy Grace would have the 911 calls tonight. I'm anxious to hear Terri's voice in all of this.
RoughlyCollie
07-08-2010, 03:50 PM
The fact is that Terri is innocent until proven guilty.
That means she is legally innocent (or not guilty) until proven legally guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, by the government, in a court of law.
It is not the same as being factually innocent or guilty.
One can have the status of being factually innocent and legally innocent at the same time. (tried & found not guilty)
One can have the status of being factually innocent and legally guilty at the same time. (wrongfully convicted)
One can be factually guilty and legally innocent (not guilty) at the same time. (govt didn't prove its case)
One can have the status of being factually guilty and legally guilty at the same time. (convicted)
When a defendant pleads not guilty it means he is holding the govt to its burden of proving his guilt. He is not saying he is factually innocent.
Injured rt hand so can't use it to type to make post clearer or better written.
twzzlrgirl
07-08-2010, 04:37 PM
Short term marriage = short term alimony, if any
2 kids = cost of raising kids paid by KH whether directly (he has custody) or indirectly (child support).
= risk too high for a reasonable, intelligent person to take, compared to benefits, if any.
This is very true, money-wise. Perhaps he had another reason, though, for not wanting Terri in the picture, but getting both kids?
Again, MOO....just thinking out loud here. I'm so confused by this case already that my head is spinning.
x_files
07-08-2010, 04:52 PM
It is entirely possible that Kaine paid the landscape guy to claim Terri inquired about a hit. It is possible Kaine is a control freak who is settig up Terri in a carefully thought out plan to remove Terri from the picture while portraying himself as a victim. It is possible Terri has been emotionally abused and manipulated for years- and now her entire world is crumbling becuse she knows she is the focus of the investigation- her step son is missing, her husband and baby left and there is nothing she can do about it. Even while what little evidence there is is circumstancial, it is pretty damning. It took her 3 weeks to lawyer up- she didn't even do that until KH left with the baby! That isn't the behavior of a woman who was plotting the demise of her husband and step son.
JMO
Thanks for posting this because until there is evidence it is worthwhile investigating all parties close to Kyron who had the opportunity or motive.
TH's behavior is odd but so is KH's. MOO
I like to sleuth and come up with theories, but I hope LE will follow hard facts and evidence to find who took Kyron. Otherwise it is just a witch hunt, and the real perp walks.
Wrinkles
07-08-2010, 04:56 PM
--- snipped ---
It was only after Kaine left, filed for divorce, a RO, and took her daughter, that she retained counsel.
--- snipped ---
After multiple polygraphs, after long interviews with LE, after responding online to comments in varying forums, after no trespassing signs, after a sting operation, and God only knows "after" what else, not to mention the probable urging of friends to do so, did she retain counsel.
EDITED:
Per Cluciano's mention:
>>As far as Terri being innocent, well she is, until proven otherwise.<<
That would be in a court of law, but not necessarily in reality.
The_Flashlight
07-08-2010, 05:02 PM
I think she was waiting until she had to get a lawyer.
sarah7855
07-08-2010, 05:14 PM
It is entirely possible that Kaine paid the landscape guy to claim Terri inquired about a hit. It is possible Kaine is a control freak who is settig up Terri in a carefully thought out plan to remove Terri from the picture while portraying himself as a victim. It is possible Terri has been emotionally abused and manipulated for years- and now her entire world is crumbling becuse she knows she is the focus of the investigation- her step son is missing, her husband and baby left and there is nothing she can do about it. Even while what little evidence there is is circumstancial, it is pretty damning. It took her 3 weeks to lawyer up- she didn't even do that until KH left with the baby! That isn't the behavior of a woman who was plotting the demise of her husband and step son.
JMO
It is entirely possible that Kaine has done all this; at this point, anything is still possible. However, if Terri is being set up like this (framed, really), then why isn't she screaming her innocence from the rooftops? why isn't she putting up any fight for Baby K? it just doesn't make sense. She has a lawyer now, you'd think there would be some statement of "my client denies all the recent allegations" or whatever fancy stuff lawyers say that basically means "she didn't do it". But there's nothing. And, going back to June 4th here, according to LE, Terri wasn't where she said she was that day. So if Kaine is setting her up in some elaborate scheme, he sure picked the right day to do it, on a day where Terri's whereabouts would come into question after the fact. JMO.
Astrella613
07-08-2010, 06:10 PM
She hasn't even been charged with anything yet!
Astrella613
07-08-2010, 06:17 PM
Yes Roughlycollie, legally innocent. I think that most of us know what that means.
AnaTeresa
07-08-2010, 06:25 PM
It's not so much that I think she's definitively innocent, it's more that I'm on the fence. There's not even any evidence to indicate that Kyron was abducted. Most of the "evidence" against TMH is armchair analysis, rumor mongering, and outright lies. To me, there's nothing known to the public at this time to strongly indicate guilt.
Wendy101
07-08-2010, 06:28 PM
It is entirely possible that Kaine paid the landscape guy to claim Terri inquired about a hit. It is possible Kaine is a control freak who is settig up Terri in a carefully thought out plan to remove Terri from the picture while portraying himself as a victim. It is possible Terri has been emotionally abused and manipulated for years- and now her entire world is crumbling becuse she knows she is the focus of the investigation- her step son is missing, her husband and baby left and there is nothing she can do about it. Even while what little evidence there is is circumstancial, it is pretty damning. It took her 3 weeks to lawyer up- she didn't even do that until KH left with the baby! That isn't the behavior of a woman who was plotting the demise of her husband and step son.
JMO
Anything is possible at this point... **when I read this, it reminded me of the cell phone pings, her phone, BUT, did she have it**
Interesting thoughts you have...
So after this is all played out and the divorce is final, then Kaine brings Kyron home?
grandmaj
07-08-2010, 06:29 PM
Are we bashing Law Enforcement? Or calling them names or name variations? You can disagree with the results of the sting in a responsible way, but we don't bash anyone.
WhyaDuck?
07-08-2010, 06:41 PM
My very basic answer: Because she's not been convicted with anything in connection with this case.
(On a personal level, though, I have to say nothing, really.)
keeponsearching
07-08-2010, 06:44 PM
It is entirely possible that Kaine has done all this; at this point, anything is still possible. However, if Terri is being set up like this (framed, really), then why isn't she screaming her innocence from the rooftops? why isn't she putting up any fight for Baby K? it just doesn't make sense. She has a lawyer now, you'd think there would be some statement of "my client denies all the recent allegations" or whatever fancy stuff lawyers say that basically means "she didn't do it". But there's nothing. And, going back to June 4th here, according to LE, Terri wasn't where she said she was that day. So if Kaine is setting her up in some elaborate scheme, he sure picked the right day to do it, on a day where Terri's whereabouts would come into question after the fact. JMO.
Maybe she is.... But we just aren't hearing it...
cluciano63
07-08-2010, 06:44 PM
If Kaine had wanted to leave Terri before Kyron went missing but was afraid he would not get custody of the baby....this whole landscaper's story could have been just what he was looking for in a way...this way, he gets all the sympathy and the baby and rid of Terri, all in one go...
keeponsearching
07-08-2010, 06:47 PM
I don't know if this is allowed, but I can't get it to leave my head. Do we know why DY had a RO on KH, or is that not even true..
I feel like I'm using codes, kwim... lol
cypress
07-08-2010, 06:50 PM
I don't know if this is allowed, but I can't get it to leave my head. Do we know why DY had a RO on KH, or is that not even true..
I feel like I'm using codes, kwim... lol
When Kyron was young, DY filed a RO against KH because she feared KH would remove children from the home. The RO was eventually granted, preventing either DY or KH from removing children from the home (Kyron, their son together, and another, older boy, who is DY's from a previous relationship).
And yes about the codes!
21merc7
07-08-2010, 06:50 PM
Are we bashing Law Enforcement? Or calling them names or name variations? You can disagree with the results of the sting in a responsible way, but we don't bash anyone.
Not bashing, just adding some levity to a confounded situation.
ETA: Have deleted any posts that could be misconstrued. Suggest everyone else do the same.
KeyboardCat
07-08-2010, 07:00 PM
There are plenty of logical reasons to assume she would not have done this.
I also want to point out that money and/or jealousy can make normal people do unspeakable things.
SleuthyGal
07-08-2010, 07:02 PM
If I assume TMH is guilty (of something), what is that something? No facts have been verified that she left the school w/Kyron. No facts have been verified that she handed Kyron off to someone else. I'll be the 1st in line to say 'guilty,' but please tell me what she did cause I am not sure what that is (yet).
Yes Kyron is missing, but I don't know who took him. Kyron may well be deceased but then again, I don't really know since he hasn't been found and no one has released any information. TMH may or may not have been involved in a murder-for-hire plot against her husband. I don't know if that happened or not.
How can anyone here (or anywhere) come to any sort of conclusion when there hasn't been a conclusion yet? Verified information is very scarce.
Are you (the royal you) comfortable going on what amounts to rumors at this point? I'm not!
I want real information...facts...not speculation, not rumors, not projection or a person's opinion of what they imagine could have happened...none of that... just the facts.
Pensfan
07-08-2010, 07:08 PM
I really don't think this little boys statement should be dismissed.He also said Kyron was going to see a cool science project.
Could a taser be a cool science project?
Aedrys
07-08-2010, 07:09 PM
Real information? There is an RO signed by Kaine, his lawyer and a judge that states that police gave him probable cause that she's involved. I'm sure the lawyer and judge would not sign something that could get them disbarred. That tells me she did do this and is not innocent. And that's the first solid proof of her guilt we have. It may not be enough in a court of law, but it definitely tells me LE believes she kidnapped Kyron beyond reasonable doubt. We just can't see what they have that tells them this!
KeyboardCat
07-08-2010, 07:10 PM
What makes me think Terri Horman is Innocent?
I don't think there is enough information available for me to form an opinion. However, I think its fairly obvious what Law Enforcement believes, particularly after reading that restraining order. I don't believe they are trying to railroad someone on just a hunch.
cypress
07-08-2010, 07:15 PM
I respect LE, and I believe most of the time the intentions of all LE are above reproach. Having said that, this community of officers is under an enormous amount of pressure to solve this case. Descriptions of the search for Kyron often include the words and phrases "unprecedented" and "largest in state's history."
Whether Terri did this or not, it's my belief LE have very little to go on. It's true that LE withholds information from the public, but I'm looking at what they are doing and saying, and yes, I'm considering the leaks as well -- after hundreds of interviews, LE sent out questionnaires to the community soliciting information about Terri's comings and goings at Skyline the day Kyron disappeared. This tells me that they did not previously receive the information supporting their hypothesis that she abducted Kyron or they received information that challenged their hypothesis. After hundreds of interviews, if LE had definitively received information about Terri leaving with Kyron, they wouldn't have sent out the questionnaire. There would've been no need to send out the questionnaire.
About the failed polygraph. Obviously someone leaked to the press that Terri showed deceptive on a key answer in her polygraph. Putting aside the usefulness or value of polygraphs, if Terri had bombed her entire polygraph, I believe the leak would reflect such a failure. As it stands, the leak says she failed a answer, and I take that to mean one. I find this odd.
With regard to the cell phone pings, I'm not sure. I'm not knowledgeable enough about cell phone beings to be sure of whether or not it's an exact science. My understanding is that pings give a range. If LE's suspicion of Terri is based on these cell phone pings, then I am uncomfortable with the focus being on Terri. There's always a first time; technology isn't infallible.
Then you've got the poorly handled sting operation. In a split second decision, Terri called the cops and told them a man was at her house demanding 10,000. She didn't attempt to cover it up. I find it interesting that she didn't show much fear or delay in calling police officers. I don't believe LE has any other evidence against Terri for the MFH than this man's word. If they did, they would've arrested her. The sting is being called a failure. What did it fail to do? Confirm Terri's involvement in this MFH plot.
I have no stake in this, and I honestly don't care whether or not Terri is innocent or guilty. I'm not trying to prove she is innocent or not guilty, if readers here prefer that term. My main concern is that two lives may be ruined in the process of finding this innocent child, and that's unnecessary and unfortunate. At some point, LE have to back up their thinly veiled claim of her guilt or they have to stop indirectly accusing her.
And, as much as I feel badly for Desiree and Kaine, saying that Terri is uncooperative because she won't confess is a bit misleading. Maybe there is nothing to confess? She has been cooperative. Up until this MFH, the sting, Kaine leaving her and taking the baby, she was cooperative in finding Kyron. LE publicly stated she was cooperative, and there have been other cases with other people who were unofficial POI, where LE stated a person wasn't cooperative. At this point, I don't think LE would lie to protect Terri or to make her think they're still on her side.
Sigh. This case is mindboggling.
x_files
07-08-2010, 07:21 PM
When Kyron was young, DY filed a RO against KH because she feared KH would remove children from the home. The RO was eventually granted, preventing either DY or KH from removing children from the home (Kyron, their son together, and another, older boy, who is DY's from a previous relationship).
And yes about the codes!
I know we can't sleuth DY's RO on KH, but it is something to take in consideration that he was restrained from removing Kyron from her home.
PaulaF513
07-08-2010, 08:23 PM
I don't understand how this has all been discounted or ignored.... Especially after watching the video... He seems so sure of himself... and I could see how he may be confused about the "substitute" part... but surely, someone had said all that....I don't know why a kid of this age would lie about something like this....
......................http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/local/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx..................
I don't know why a child would make up a story like that either, particularly given the gravity of the situation.
I think that Mr Shelby is so concerned with the reputation of the school that he is making a fool of himself here. Why would Kyron's name be brought up after he was missing for a week? Is there another Kyron in Ms Porter's class who may have gone to the bathroom without asking permission? Was there another group that returned to the classroom minus a boy?
There are too amny questions and too few answers in this very sad case.
I certainly hope that LE is not focussed so entirely on the SM, to the exclusion of other avenues, that a predator gets away with either kidnapping or worse. And if indeed she did do something horrible to that sweet child, I hope they find some credible evidence soon.
Calliope
07-08-2010, 08:37 PM
I think she was waiting until she had to get a lawyer.
Whatever her reason, she should have had one from the start.
Calliope
07-08-2010, 08:42 PM
Real information? There is an RO signed by Kaine, his lawyer and a judge that states that police gave him probable cause that she's involved. I'm sure the lawyer and judge would not sign something that could get them disbarred. That tells me she did do this and is not innocent. And that's the first solid proof of her guilt we have. It may not be enough in a court of law, but it definitely tells me LE believes she kidnapped Kyron beyond reasonable doubt. We just can't see what they have that tells them this!
They wouldn't get disbarred. But Kaine could be held in contempt.
If LE thought there was proof beyond reasonable doubt, there would have been no need for a RO, she would have already been behind bars.
KeyboardCat
07-08-2010, 09:19 PM
Well, the order said they had probable cause, not proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
With probable cause, authorities can obtain search warrants and the like to further investigate. If they feel their case isn't strong enough to go to trial, of course they wouldn't arrest her, since after an arrest they have a limited time frame in which they have to formally charge her. Bringing charges against her without the investigation complete, or without being as solid as they feel they may need, would be foolish.
And besides that, the term "probable cause" in the restraining order is used by Kaine Horman from what I can see. It may be simply his interpretation of what was said/presented to him when police informed him of a murder for hire against him. The police may not have used that term.
But even if that term was used by police, it doesn't mean they want to arrest and charge her just yet.
mrsjonnob
07-08-2010, 09:39 PM
Wow, with Kaine filing to have her removed from the house and the presser this afternoon, the first thing I thought was "I would't be surprised if she attempts to harm herself", like Trenton's mom did.. you can only push a person so far. At some point, she may feel like she has lost everything meaningful to her.
smart blonde
07-08-2010, 09:39 PM
What makes you think Terri Horman is innocent?
Hmmm... I can't think of anything that makes me think she is innocent.
(If anyone is thinking of throwing rocks at me, please just make sure they are soft rocks, okay)? :croc:
KeyboardCat
07-08-2010, 09:45 PM
I also think that if the police can come to Kaine Horman and demonstrate that there are reasons for him to believe that his wife did both of these things, I'm sure it probably fits the definition of "probable cause," whether or not the term used in the restraining order was Kaine's interpretation or what the police actually said.
WholeLottaRosie
07-08-2010, 10:48 PM
It is entirely possible that Kaine paid the landscape guy to claim Terri inquired about a hit. It is possible Kaine is a control freak who is settig up Terri in a carefully thought out plan to remove Terri from the picture while portraying himself as a victim. It is possible Terri has been emotionally abused and manipulated for years- and now her entire world is crumbling becuse she knows she is the focus of the investigation- her step son is missing, her husband and baby left and there is nothing she can do about it. Even while what little evidence there is is circumstancial, it is pretty damning. It took her 3 weeks to lawyer up- she didn't even do that until KH left with the baby! That isn't the behavior of a woman who was plotting the demise of her husband and step son.
JMO
This is what I think!!! Also, my husband who ALWAYS comes down on the man's side in EVERYTHING, who doesn't read WS, but does watch JVM and NG, and has me give him an update every day, thinks this as well! He shocked me, truly shocked me earlier this evening when he said that.
I do not think of her as innocent and I do not think of her as guilty.
I simply think of her as the last known person to have been with Kyron on the day he went missing over a month ago.
JMHO.
ella971
07-08-2010, 10:52 PM
I do not think of her as innocent and I do not think of her as guilty.
I simply think of her as the last known person to have been with Kyron on the day he went missing over a month ago.
JMHO.
Kat, this kinda reminds me of a case in Florida. Member?
Kat, this kinda reminds me of a case in Florida. Member?
Yup I member ella.
(good to see you again :))
raeann
07-08-2010, 11:08 PM
Could a taser be a cool science project?
I am not sure what you are implying exactly, but if you have ever HEARD someone who has been shot with a taser.....it is not exactly something that is a SILENT weapon. There are screams, thuds to the floor, wild thrashing----all involuntary reactions to the pain. It would be a very ineffective means of disabling someone to get them out of sight.
jmo
redkatrampant
07-08-2010, 11:09 PM
I do not think of her as innocent and I do not think of her as guilty.
I simply think of her as the last known person to have been with Kyron on the day he went missing over a month ago.
JMHO.
nooooooo you have to think like me since we are both apparently Kats.
Honestly though I can see your side of it. Although I have made it plainly known that I suspect her. Ok, I think she is guilty.
I can however see where, in light of the info that we have and the twists and turns that there is a chance that she does not have anything to do with this.
I was on the fence, then I got back on and then today I fell right off.
However, I do respect your opinion. There are so many of us that seem to be ready to burn her at the stake. I am willing to let things play out before I do that.
I just wanted to point that out because I am so sad at how this is going. I also see some that are not being so respectful. I want to keep that in mind that she has yet to be charged.
redkatrampant
07-08-2010, 11:10 PM
I am not sure what you are implying exactly, but if you have ever HEARD someone who has been shot with a taser.....it is not exactly something that is a SILENT weapon. There are screams, thuds to the floor, wild thrashing----all involuntary reactions to the pain. It would be a very ineffective means of disabling someone to get them out of sight.
jmo
And if there is any doubt go to youtube and search for taser.
raeann
07-08-2010, 11:14 PM
And if there is any doubt go to youtube and search for taser.
LOL....yes, I purposely left out the part about LOTS of four letter words being screamed at the taser-er!
nooooooo you have to think like me since we are both apparently Kats.
Honestly though I can see your side of it. Although I have made it plainly known that I suspect her. Ok, I think she is guilty.
I can however see where, in light of the info that we have and the twists and turns that there is a chance that she does not have anything to do with this.
I was on the fence, then I got back on and then today I fell right off.
However, I do respect your opinion. There are so many of us that seem to be ready to burn her at the stake. I am willing to let things play out before I do that.
I just wanted to point that out because I am so sad at how this is going. I also see some that are not being so respectful. I want to keep that in mind that she has yet to be charged.
Sure I suspect her Kat. In fact, if she isn't eventually charged with a crime in connection to Kyron I would be very suprised to say the least.
IMHO all roads lead to her. I was just answering the question posed by the OP--what makes me think she is innocent.
Nothing. LOL.
(I enjoy reading your posts kat :))
Chewy
07-08-2010, 11:57 PM
Hi first time poster long time lurker.
I don't know but there is something too neat about the way the family has turned against her.
I don't think it is fair for them to make statements about not trusting her without giving the public all the facts.
I will say that the thing that makes me think she might be guilty is the fact that the police narrowed it down so quickly. I took a criminal law course at college ages ago and our instructor told us that most criminal investigations aren't as mysterious as they seem to the public. The cops know pretty quickly what happened because they do this full time and can read people and pick up on details etc.
The only thing that bothers me is that if she is innocent then perhaps the boy is dead. It was a long long time from the first point of him missing until it was found out.
But I do agree (My opinion only) that TH contacted the school about the science project because she wanted them to notice he was missing.
I also think that the fact that the parents know he's alive is strange. If I knew my kid was kidnapped by someone who was that close to me, I wouldn't shun them this way, I'd try to get close to them and get them to admit it. Something about that is weird.
redkatrampant
07-09-2010, 12:02 AM
Hi first time poster long time lurker.
I don't know but there is something too neat about the way the family has turned against her.
I don't think it is fair for them to make statements about not trusting her without giving the public all the facts.
I will say that the thing that makes me think she might be guilty is the fact that the police narrowed it down so quickly. I took a criminal law course at college ages ago and our instructor told us that most criminal investigations aren't as mysterious as they seem to the public. The cops know pretty quickly what happened because they do this full time and can read people and pick up on details etc.
The only thing that bothers me is that if she is innocent then perhaps the boy is dead. It was a long long time from the first point of him missing until it was found out.
But I do agree (My opinion only) that TH contacted the school about the science project because she wanted them to notice he was missing.
I also think that the fact that the parents know he's alive is strange. If I knew my kid was kidnapped by someone who was that close to me, I wouldn't shun them this way, I'd try to get close to them and get them to admit it. Something about that is weird.
Well , while I respect your opinion, I did want to comment on the fair part. We may not like the fact that we don't have all the info, but I don't think it would be *fair* of LE to give all the info at this time. I think they have to keep certain things to themselves to have a continuing investigation. Kinda like not giving all the info out on a murder case so that only the guilty party would be the only one who knew a certain piece of info.
MOO
OH and WELCOME!!
WholeLottaRosie
07-09-2010, 12:04 AM
Hi first time poster long time lurker.
I don't know but there is something too neat about the way the family has turned against her.
I don't think it is fair for them to make statements about not trusting her without giving the public all the facts.
I will say that the thing that makes me think she might be guilty is the fact that the police narrowed it down so quickly. I took a criminal law course at college ages ago and our instructor told us that most criminal investigations aren't as mysterious as they seem to the public. The cops know pretty quickly what happened because they do this full time and can read people and pick up on details etc.
The only thing that bothers me is that if she is innocent then perhaps the boy is dead. It was a long long time from the first point of him missing until it was found out.
But I do agree (My opinion only) that TH contacted the school about the science project because she wanted them to notice he was missing.
I also think that the fact that the parents know he's alive is strange. If I knew my kid was kidnapped by someone who was that close to me, I wouldn't shun them this way, I'd try to get close to them and get them to admit it. Something about that is weird.
BBM - I agree. And after watching tonight's presser, I think so even more.
IF, and I said IF, TH was involved with KH before he split with DY, what a marvelous opportunity DY now has to get back at the other woman. And KH has an opportunity to get custody of little K, no child support, the house, etc.
I am sorry, I don't see the grace and class so many claim. I need to stop now with what I think, as this whole thing makes me sicker as each day goes by.
redkatrampant
07-09-2010, 12:17 AM
BBM - I agree. And after watching tonight's presser, I think so even more.
IF, and I said IF, TH was involved with KH before he split with DY, what a marvelous opportunity DY now has to get back at the other woman. And KH has an opportunity to get custody of little K, no child support, the house, etc.
I am sorry, I don't see the grace and class so many claim. I need to stop now with what I think, as this whole thing makes me sicker as each day goes by.
Just wanted to comment on part of this. I have read a lot of your posts and I respect your insight. I know for me , I see a lot of restraint and class for DY because if I thought someone had done something with or to one of my kids/grands I would NOT have that restraint. I just would not. I would probably end up in jail myself.
WholeLottaRosie
07-09-2010, 12:27 AM
Just wanted to comment on part of this. I have read a lot of your posts and I respect your insight. I know for me , I see a lot of restraint and class for DY because if I thought someone had done something with or to one of my kids/grands I would NOT have that restraint. I just would not. I would probably end up in jail myself.
Thanks, I respect your insight as well. That is what I love about WS, you know. We have different views, and we express them and learn from them. I seriously consider everyone's views, and I am sorry, I have tried to join the majority on this one, as normally that is were I am, and I just can't in this case.
And I really agree with the last part of your comment, if something, Gods forbid, happened to a child of mine, and I knew or thought I knew who did it, look out, I would be in the cell with you. I fervently hope and pray constantly that I, and, you, and all of us never have to know that.
Chewy
07-09-2010, 12:30 AM
On the one hand there is what could be called class and restraint. But I agree, if someone did something to one of my kids I wouldn't give a damn about going to jail. I'd physically attack them relentlessly until they confessed. I know it. I can't quite grasp what the dynamics of their relationship must be but something here is way off.
cypress
07-09-2010, 12:30 AM
BBM - I agree. And after watching tonight's presser, I think so even more.
IF, and I said IF, TH was involved with KH before he split with DY, what a marvelous opportunity DY now has to get back at the other woman. And KH has an opportunity to get custody of little K, no child support, the house, etc.
I am sorry, I don't see the grace and class so many claim. I need to stop now with what I think, as this whole thing makes me sicker as each day goes by.
I have said all along that if Terri is guilty, that doesn't make Kaine innocent, and I'm not necessarily referring to Kyron's disappearance.Terri being the bad guy doesn't make Kaine the good guy, IMHO.
I have a strong moral sense of right and wrong, but in life, there is a lot of gray, too. I'm a firm believer in everything takes two -- good and bad. If the marriage was rocky or if Desiree didn't like Terri, that doesn't mean Terri was automatically to blame. Rumors abound that Terri was having an affair with Kaine while he was married to Desiree, but there is absolutely no proof of this. All we know, from Desiree's mouth, is that Desiree didn't speak to Terri until Kyron was a year and a half old.
And then there are little things, the tiniest, smallest consideration like Terri tagging Desiree on a Facebook photograph of Kyron that make me question Terri's status as accused, narcissistic, evil stepmother.
Whether or not Terri is responsible for Kyron's disappearance, she isn't responsible for everything that's gone wrong in the lives of the people around her.
I find it a bit disingenuous for DY and KH to state that Terri isn't cooperating because she's not confessing. They are assuming guilt. In a recent article, Kaine states that LE told him it'd be a marathon not a sprint with regard to this case. That tells me LE has very little evidence against Terri. IMHO, LE is waiting on Kyron's reappearance to advance the case, however that comes about.
With regard to the presser and Terri failing the polygraphs. Well, at the time DY, TY, and KH took the polygraphs, the focus wasn't on them. We now know that LE was zeroed in on TH from the beginning. I've known a lot of cops over the years, and every single cop I've ever known says he/she would never, ever submit to a polygraph. Sociopaths can pass polygraphs and innocent people can fail them. Also, an earlier leak reported by news media, stated that Terri showed deceptive on "a key answer," and I read that as her being deceptive about one key answer. Would it change everyone's mind if the answer was about her being on Suavie Island? What if she tested as being truthful in regard to whether or not she abducted Kyron, harmed him, knows where he is or if he is deceased?
DY and KH can assert that she failed her polygraph even if she only failed one answer. Maybe that's why she was retested, because she only failed the one answer. What if it's a fluke? Or maybe she's lying about where she was and she's afraid to fess up? Who knows. I have no doubt LE leaked that information, and if it's true that she only showed deceptive on one question, I find that strange. If she's responsible for Kyron's disappearance or if she knows who is, it stands to reason that she would've shown up as deceptive on multiple questions.
Chewy
07-09-2010, 12:38 AM
All the speculation about polygraphs. I would fail a polygraph in a situation like this. I know I would because I would feel so guilty and nervous, especially if I knew people thought I had done it. I think I'd start second guessing myself like crazy and wondering if I had split personality or something. I feel bad the way people judge TH's behavior at the news conference because I'd be insecure and probably read like a sociopath.
froginTtown
07-09-2010, 12:56 AM
:) :) I just want to say THANK YOU to those who think outside the bun.... :) :) :) :) :)
Although you may feel like :shocked2:... just know that there are those who support you.. and hopefully me too... :p :p
Thanks again... :)
gardeness
07-09-2010, 01:00 AM
What are the PCs for, if not to inform the public? If they want to talk to Terri, they can send messages through their attorneys. IMO, they need to reveal at least ONE piece of concrete evidence against Terri, and a LDT isn't valid.
LE could state exactly what the LS said/did to give "probable cause"--I don't see there being anything to lose by revealing that, as the "sting" was botched and everyone knows about it. I actually feel like LE *not* giving the information about the LS is more revealing--if their "info" is as sparse as Kaine's was on the RO, there is NOTHING. MOO
redkatrampant
07-09-2010, 01:05 AM
What are the PCs for, if not to inform the public? If they want to talk to Terri, they can send messages through their attorneys. IMO, they need to reveal at least ONE piece of concrete evidence against Terri, and a LDT isn't valid.
LE could state exactly what the LS said/did to give "probable cause"--I don't see there being anything to lose by revealing that, as the "sting" was botched and everyone knows about it. I actually feel like LE *not* giving the information about the LS is more revealing--if their "info" is as sparse as Kaine's was on the RO, there is NOTHING. MOO
Hmm. There is that. There is also the fact that they stated that LE had nothing to do with their PC. I think that speaks to frustration at what they cannot say. What they have been advised not to say.
MOO
froginTtown
07-09-2010, 01:10 AM
I wonder if there is a conflict of interest on Tony's part. (the stepfather of Kyron).. Some bullying between LE...
rosiebean
07-09-2010, 01:20 AM
I find it a bit disingenuous for DY and KH to state that Terri isn't cooperating because she's not confessing.
Link?
With regard to the presser and Terri failing the polygraphs. Well, at the time DY, TY, and KH took the polygraphs, the focus wasn't on them.Link?
We now know that LE was zeroed in on TH from the beginning.Link?
Also, an earlier leak reported by news media, stated that Terri showed deceptive on "a key answer," and I read that as her being deceptive about one key answer. Would it change everyone's mind if the answer was about her being on Suavie Island? What if she tested as being truthful in regard to whether or not she abducted Kyron, harmed him, knows where he is or if he is deceased?But the quote was NOT that she had been deceptive on ONE key answer. Also, no, it wouldn't matter if she were truthful about having harmed him, etc., if she were untruthful about her whereabouts on June 4. She could have handed Kyron off to someone else and not "know" if he were harmed, etc...or, she could just be a sociopath, you know, and pass all of the answers she were guilty on except for one where she slipped up a little.
DY and KH can assert that she failed her polygraph even if she only failed one answer.Link?
Or maybe she's lying about where she was and she's afraid to fess up?WHY???!!! WHAT ON EARTH is more important than finding out where Kyron is? So she was on Sauvie buying crack? Cheating? Hiring illegal immigrants as babysitters??? What on EARTH could be so embarrassing that after a FREAKING MONTH she'd be so worried about telling the truth about if it would help advance the investigation? I just cannot wrap my mind around this. I don't care WHAT I had done...danced naked through a crack infested bordello while selling state secrets...NOTHING would be so embarrassing/illegal/immoral that it would stop me from telling the truth about my whereabouts when it came to finding an innocent child...nothing!
Who knows. I have no doubt LE leaked that information, and if it's true that she only showed deceptive on one question, I find that strange. If she's responsible for Kyron's disappearance or if she knows who is, it stands to reason that she would've shown up as deceptive on multiple questions.I doubt she only showed up deceptive on one as the article quoted didn't state that, but...Susan Smith only showed up deceptive on one, FWIW... but that one answer was enough to give LE an idea how to question her.
tragco
07-09-2010, 01:38 AM
I think she may be innocent. During the sting operation, she called 911- I think twice from what I've read by you excellent sleuthers.
Begin with this premise: the landscaper is lying for whatever reason. He shows up at her house and starts his thing. If she's innocent, she'd want LE to know immediately as he might be involved with Kyron's disappearance.
How would she act if she was guilty but thought she was being set up? A bit differently, maybe? What I really WANT is to hear the 911 calls.
Are the 911 tapes available? I think that would give a lot of insight. I want to hear what she said/how she acted.
It just doesn't make sense to me that she would care for Kyron this long, without incident, and suddenly kill him or hand him off.
Even Kyron's mother said during the press conference that they were blindsided by the whole thing (although she has been given info that we surely don't know about, and she appears to be convinced Terri is involved). She was very impressive during the last press conference, and very believable.
I just don't know what to think, but I am not yet convinced it was Terri.
cypress
07-09-2010, 01:39 AM
Hmm. There is that. There is also the fact that they stated that LE had nothing to do with their PC. I think that speaks to frustration at what they cannot say. What they have been advised not to say.
MOO
What might they be holding back, though? LE has, IMHO, leaked most of what there is to know. This is where my reasoning is a bit circular. If there was overwhelming evidence against Terri, she would be in jail. She is not in jail. If they had overwhelming evidence against her, why would LE tell KH that this is going to be a marathon not a sprint? Overwhelming evidence = sprint, lack of overwhelming evidence = marathon, IMHO.
And this is where I see circular reasoning between LE, DY, TY and KH.
LE, DY, TY, and KH have repeatedly stated there is no evidence that Kyron is deceased. This tells me that there is no evidence of a murder. This means LE has no evidence against Terri that implicates her in a murder.
We drop to the lesser charge of Terri abducting Kyron. By their own admission, LE interviewed hundreds of witnesses, including parents and children, in the days after Kyron went missing. If there had been a smoking gun such as a witness who saw Terri shuffling an incapacitated Kyron into the truck or otherwise leaving with him, they would've found this witness by now. When LE sent out the questionnaire after they'd interviewed hundreds of witnesses, this told me that they had no evidence Terri left with Kyron that day. If LE had witnesses attesting to the fact that Terri left with Kyron the day he went missing, the questionnaire would've been unnecessary. And let's not forget that the questionnaire went out to the hundreds of people who had already been interviewed. If there was a witness or witnesses who saw Terri leaving with Kyron, I truly believe we would know it by now.
The cell phone pings. Again, I am not an expert on cell phone pings, but it's my understanding that they give a range. Terri was, admittedly, out and about that day, and so is it possible her cell phone pinged off a tower as she was running errands? FWIW, I believe the cell phone ping information is accurate insofar as it places her somewhere she says she was not, and I believe this is key in DY, TY, KH, and LE's assertion that she is lying.
The failed polygraphs. Eh, on polygraphs, but we'll go with she failed, as reported, "a key answer." That indicates one answer, which is bizarre to me; it is nearly unfathomable to me, if she did this alone or with an accomplice, that she could only fail one answer if the report of her failing "a key answer" is true, and I believe the report is accurate. Only LE, TY, DY, and KH would know whether or not she failed, and so whoever leaked the information was privy to the information. I don't believe they'd make it look better for her. If she failed the entire polygraph, or multiple answers, I believe the leaked information would reflect that failure, e.g. "She failed multiple questions with regard to key areas of the investigation."
So, IMHO, what LE have is the cell phone pings and the failed polygraph, LE's focus, and DY's suspicion. The pings and polygraph being the only evidence LE have makes sense to me -- polygraphs aren't admissible, and cell phone ping information isn't enough. If there was anything solid, Terri would be in jail, IMHO, and if there was anything else, LE would've leaked it by now, IMHO. Everything else -- the pings, the polygraph, and the mfh plot have been leaked, the latter despite everything being sealed.
GrainneDhu
07-09-2010, 01:42 AM
IF they don't have anything that definitely incriminates TMH...
IF Kyron is deceased...
IF LE doesn't recover his body somehow...
Then it will definitely be a marathon, because with cases like Steven Staynor, Jaycee Dugard, Elizabeth Smart and Shawn Hornbeck out there, it will take a long time before a jury will believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Kyron is dead.
I'm beginning to fear this will go on a long, long time.
tragco
07-09-2010, 01:47 AM
Rosiebean, wanted to add, thank you for the laugh in this horrible situation. Your comment "I don't care WHAT I had done...danced naked through a crack infested bordello while selling state secrets" cracked me up.
WhyaDuck?
07-09-2010, 01:48 AM
I'm gonna say this and run...
The fact that everyone else seems so darn certain she is guilty makes me start to think she might not be. Or that at least some of us should play the Loyal Opposition.
:couch:
rosiebean
07-09-2010, 01:50 AM
The failed polygraphs. Eh, on polygraphs, but we'll go with she failed, as reported, "a key answer." That indicates one answer, which is bizarre to me; it is nearly unfathomable to me, if she did this alone or with an accomplice, that she could only fail one answer if the report of her failing "a key answer" is true, and I believe the report is accurate. Only LE, TY, DY, and KH would know whether or not she failed, and so whoever leaked the information was privy to the information. I don't believe they'd make it look better for her. If she failed the entire polygraph, or multiple answers, I believe the leaked information would reflect that failure, e.g. "She failed multiple questions with regard to key areas of the investigation."
"A" does not equal "one". Likewise, her own husband said she failed two polys, and, IMO, he'd have sounded like an idiot if he'd said, "she failed multiple questions.." etc. IMO, saying she failed both polys indicates she failed more than one question.
Even so, I keep going back to Susan Smith...who failed ONE question on her poly.
So, IMHO, what LE have is the cell phone pings and the failed polygraph, LE's focus, and DY's suspicion. The pings and polygraph being the only evidence LE have makes sense to me -- polygraphs aren't admissible, and cell phone ping information isn't enough. If there was anything solid, Terri would be in jail, IMHO, and if there was anything else, LE would've leaked it by now, IMHO. Everything else -- the pings, the polygraph, and the mfh plot have been leaked, the latter despite everything being sealed.I agree that the pings and poly aren't enough for an arrest, although pings/cell phone triangulation can give a fairly tight radius of a person's whereabouts...and IMO, for LE to focus on the pings so heavily, it would mean that they were in a place far away from where she claimed to have gone that morning. I would be surprised though, very surprised, if that was ALL that they had. This LE team has played things very tight...and I'm an not convinced (not by a long shot at all) that all leaks have come from them. Certainly, in the public domain, there isn't enough to indicate TH's guilt. But that does not mean that LE has nothing on her...IMO.
grandmaj
07-09-2010, 01:52 AM
Please do not alter the names of anyone discussed in this case, except appropriate abbreviations.Derogatory name changes, or any kind of name change is not acceptable.
Name calling is not allowed, TO's will be given.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Name Variations and Name calling
redkatrampant
07-09-2010, 01:53 AM
What might they be holding back, though? LE has, IMHO, leaked most of what there is to know. This is where my reasoning is a bit circular. If there was overwhelming evidence against Terri, she would be in jail. She is not in jail. If they had overwhelming evidence against her, why would LE tell KH that this is going to be a marathon not a sprint? Overwhelming evidence = sprint, lack of overwhelming evidence = marathon, IMHO.
That may very well be the case. I am of the opinion at this point that there is a reason they are handling TH the way they are. What they do have is not quite solid enough. You know the old adage, give em enough rope and they will hang themself
And this is where I see circular reasoning between LE, DY, TY and KH.
LE, DY, TY, and KH have repeatedly stated there is no evidence that Kyron is deceased. This tells me that there is no evidence of a murder. This means LE has no evidence against Terri that implicates her in a murder.There could very well be evidence that "something happened" but they need to keep TH in the spotlight, or maybe are waiting for her to make a move that will lead them to Kyron. We all have seen where someone sitting in jail does not always make them talk.
We drop to the lesser charge of Terri abducting Kyron. By their own admission, LE interviewed hundreds of witnesses, including parents and children, in the days after Kyron went missing. If there had been a smoking gun such as a witness who saw Terri shuffling an incapacitated Kyron into the truck or otherwise leaving with him, they would've found this witness by now. When LE sent out the questionnaire after they'd interviewed hundreds of witnesses, this told me that they had no evidence Terri left with Kyron that day. If LE had witnesses attesting to the fact that Terri left with Kyron the day he went missing, the questionnaire would've been unnecessary. And let's not forget that the questionnaire went out to the hundreds of people who had already been interviewed. If there was a witness or witnesses who saw Terri leaving with Kyron, I truly believe we would know it by now.
Did the second questionnaire not focus on TH? I may not recall that correctly
The cell phone pings. Again, I am not an expert on cell phone pings, but it's my understanding that they give a range. Terri was, admittedly, out and about that day, and so is it possible her cell phone pinged off a tower as she was running errands? FWIW, I believe the cell phone ping information is accurate insofar as it places her somewhere she says she was not, and I believe this is key in DY, TY, KH, and LE's assertion that she is lying.
This to me,says that she is not being truthful. If she is not being straight forward about that, it calls in to question what else is she not being truthful about
The failed polygraphs. Eh, on polygraphs, but we'll go with she failed, as reported, "a key answer." That indicates one answer, which is bizarre to me; it is nearly unfathomable to me, if she did this alone or with an accomplice, that she could only fail one answer if the report of her failing "a key answer" is true, and I believe the report is accurate. Only LE, TY, DY, and KH would know whether or not she failed, and so whoever leaked the information was privy to the information. I don't believe they'd make it look better for her. If she failed the entire polygraph, or multiple answers, I believe the leaked information would reflect that failure, e.g. "She failed multiple questions with regard to key areas of the investigation." This does make me ponder the whole LDT issue. I would love to have clarification on THAT issue but I do not think we are going to get it right now
So, IMHO, what LE have is the cell phone pings and the failed polygraph, LE's focus, and DY's suspicion. The pings and polygraph being the only evidence LE have makes sense to me -- polygraphs aren't admissible, and cell phone ping information isn't enough. If there was anything solid, Terri would be in jail, IMHO, and if there was anything else, LE would've leaked it by now, IMHO. Everything else -- the pings, the polygraph, and the mfh plot have been leaked, the latter despite everything being sealed.Then again they maybe letting stuff slowly trickle out to make TH squirm. She may get paranoid as to "what do they know?" and act on that, giving them more answers.
Words in red respectfully added by me. I wanted to address certain parts because it was well though out and made me consider some things. I hope you do not mind.
debirlfan
07-09-2010, 01:54 AM
I think there actually two questions - one is whether TH is innocent, and the other being whether she harmed Kyron.
Really, it's hard to imagine that someone else took the child. If Kyron was taken from the school, it just about had to be by somebody he knew, because if someone had taken him by force, chances are he would have put up enough of a fight that someone would have realized there was a problem. Also, kids today are generally smart enough to know not to go willingly with a stranger, so, as I said, logically it was someone he knew.
Yes, it could have been another student/school employee/classmates parent, etc. However, to be brutally honest, most of those scenarios either involve another kid playing a nasty trick, or a pedophile - and either way, something probably would have turned up by now, either a body or at least some suspicions in a background check.
So that leaves people Kyron was close to - family. Dad was at work, and I'm sure the police would have checked to see where the bio-mom and step-dad were and ensured they weren't involved.
That brings us down to TH as the most likely possibility for taking him.
However - that doesn't mean she hurt him.
To me, it seems like if a step-parent is going to resent a child put into their care, they're more likely to do it when the child is young and requires constant care and attention. Kyron was in school full time, and to be honest, TH really didn't have to deal with him very much if she didn't want to.
Further, IF TRUE, the landscaper/murder plot would seem to indicate she's not capable of "do it yourself" murder - and wouldn't most people have more trouble killing a 7 yr old that they had essentially raised as opposed to a husband that they hated?
Personally, I think there's a good chance she has Kyron stashed somewhere with someone for "safekeeping". Either she felt he was in danger at home, or she simply sensed that there was a divorce looming and wanted to keep the child she had raised despite knowing she had no legal custody rights to him.
I suspect that's why she hasn't been arrested - if the police believed she had killed Kyron, there would be no reason not to arrest her - but if they believe he's alive and well, they're probably thinking that she will eventually go to him (and I'm sure they have a tail on her.)
rosiebean
07-09-2010, 01:57 AM
I'm gonna say this and run...
The fact that everyone else seems so darn certain she is guilty makes me start to think she might not be. Or that at least some of us should play the Loyal Opposition.
:couch:
Personally, I have no idea if she's guilty. I believe that LE is looking at her as their main POI, which makes me think they have legitimate reason to do so beyond even what is in the media. Until I have real facts, I'm not going to assert the TH is guilty...but given LE's interest in her (due to, among potential other things, her apparent inability to account for her movements on the morning of June 4) nor am I going to assert that she's innocent.
mrsjonnob
07-09-2010, 01:57 AM
I think there actually two questions - one is whether TH is innocent, and the other being whether she harmed Kyron.
Really, it's hard to imagine that someone else took the child. If Kyron was taken from the school, it just about had to be by somebody he knew, because if someone had taken him by force, chances are he would have put up enough of a fight that someone would have realized there was a problem. Also, kids today are generally smart enough to know not to go willingly with a stranger, so, as I said, logically it was someone he knew.
Yes, it could have been another student/school employee/classmates parent, etc. However, to be brutally honest, most of those scenarios either involve another kid playing a nasty trick, or a pedophile - and either way, something probably would have turned up by now, either a body or at least some suspicions in a background check.
So that leaves people Kyron was close to - family. Dad was at work, and I'm sure the police would have checked to see where the bio-mom and step-dad were and ensured they weren't involved.
That brings us down to TH as the most likely possibility for taking him.
However - that doesn't mean she hurt him.
To me, it seems like if a step-parent is going to resent a child put into their care, they're more likely to do it when the child is young and requires constant care and attention. Kyron was in school full time, and to be honest, TH really didn't have to deal with him very much if she didn't want to.
Further, IF TRUE, the landscaper/murder plot would seem to indicate she's not capable of "do it yourself" murder - and wouldn't most people have more trouble killing a 7 yr old that they had essentially raised as opposed to a husband that they hated?
Personally, I think there's a good chance she has Kyron stashed somewhere with someone for "safekeeping". Either she felt he was in danger at home, or she simply sensed that there was a divorce looming and wanted to keep the child she had raised despite knowing she had no legal custody rights to him.
I suspect that's why she hasn't been arrested - if the police believed she had killed Kyron, there would be no reason not to arrest her - but if they believe he's alive and well, they're probably thinking that she will eventually go to him (and I'm sure they have a tail on her.)
BBM
I hadn't considered this possibility... what IF she stashed Kyron somewhere and had planned to take off with the baby later that day but Kaine came home before she would take off?
cypress
07-09-2010, 02:03 AM
Link?
Link?
Link?
But the quote was NOT that she had been deceptive on ONE key answer. Also, no, it wouldn't matter if she were truthful about having harmed him, etc., if she were untruthful about her whereabouts on June 4. She could have handed Kyron off to someone else and not "know" if he were harmed, etc...or, she could just be a sociopath, you know, and pass all of the answers she were guilty on except for one where she slipped up a little.
Link?
WHY???!!! WHAT ON EARTH is more important than finding out where Kyron is? So she was on Sauvie buying crack? Cheating? Hiring illegal immigrants as babysitters??? What on EARTH could be so embarrassing that after a FREAKING MONTH she'd be so worried about telling the truth about if it would help advance the investigation? I just cannot wrap my mind around this. I don't care WHAT I had done...danced naked through a crack infested bordello while selling state secrets...NOTHING would be so embarrassing/illegal/immoral that it would stop me from telling the truth about my whereabouts when it came to finding an innocent child...nothing!
I doubt she only showed up deceptive on one as the article quoted didn't state that, but...Susan Smith only showed up deceptive on one, FWIW... but that one answer was enough to give LE an idea how to question her.
With regard to the links, I'll say the the presser today provided me with some of the information. When Desiree was asked how Terri is not cooperating, she answered because she [Terri] isn't being truthful. LE has said Terri is being cooperative, so there is some disparity there. Obviously Terri submitted to interrogations, searches, and two polygraphs. In the context Desiree was speaking, I interpret "not being truthful" as "not confessing to her role in Kyron's disappearance."
With regard to the focus being on Terri from the beginning. Multiple news sources and even Desiree, again in the press conference today, said they suspected Terri from the beginning. It's fairly obvious, to me anyway, that Terri has been at the center of this investigation from the beginning.
There is no link for DY and KH's conclusions about the polygraphs. That's my supposition.
About the "key answer" --
Terri Horman has taken two polygraph tests, after authorities said a key answer on the first exam found her deceptive.
Source: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/landscaper_wore_wire_asked_ter.html
I do agree with you, though, that if a child was missing, I would drag every last skeleton out of my closet and put them on parade. Maybe it's not about where she was! I don't know. Maybe she's not lying. Maybe she's lying about everything. I find the "a key answer" odd, though. LE doesn't want to paint Terri in a positive light. They are leaking this information to sway public opinion and put pressure on her. I maintain that if she'd shown deceptive on multiple answers, the wording in the article (re: the leaked information) would reflect multiple deceptions.
gardeness
07-09-2010, 02:28 AM
"Terri Horman has taken two polygraph tests, after authorities said a key answer on the first exam found her deceptive."
Source: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...asked_ter.html
I don't see how "a key answer" could be interpreted as "two key answers" or "three", and so on...so, yeah, I agree. One answer.
sorrell skye
07-09-2010, 02:30 AM
:) :) I just want to say THANK YOU to those who think outside the bun.... :) :) :) :) :)
Although you may feel like :shocked2:... just know that there are those who support you.. and hopefully me too... :p :p
Thanks again... :)
THANK YOU for saying this FroginTtown! It's truly good to know there is support here for alternative ideas & support for those who choose to voice what may be viewed as dissenting opinions or as "defense of TH". It's also good to know that whatever our opinions may be, that all opinions are respected.
I must admit, in the beginning of this case, I was not suspicious of TH at all.
As time went on & I read of rumors of cell phone pings on Sauvie Island, a tiny seed of doubt of TH sprouted, and when the questionnaire was released with her photos on it, & the white truck, and then suddenly KH was moving out of the house with baby K & an RO was issued, that seed of doubt burgeoned to full-grown suspicion.
Then lawnmower man turned up with his outlandish MFH claims & the attempted sting went down. It was a turning point for me. I know that event sealed the deal for many folks in terms of convincing them of TH's involvement in K's disappearance, but, strangely enough, it had the opposite effect on me.
I began to step back & question, because I realized I was basing my suspicion on circumstantial evidence, hearsay, and unsubstantiated rumors - not factual, empirical, hard core evidence.
It has taught me a lesson.
At this point, I don't know if TH is innocent or guilty in this tragic, heart wrenching case. I have no qualms about waiting for reliable evidence, regardless of whatever the more mainstream stance or opinion might be. IMO, there's not a darn thing wrong with being sure. I just want to be sure that I'm sure - and to know without a doubt why I'm sure.
As far as I'm concerned, the only true innocent in this case is little Kyron.
My strongest wish for him is that he is found alive & unharmed, and if not, I pray he didn't suffer.
debirlfan
07-09-2010, 02:48 AM
Giving the matter of the questionnaires some more thought.
Let's assume for a moment that no one saw TH leave with Kyron...
This probably won't be a popular suggestion, but - what if Kyron was a willing participant in his own disappearance? What if his supposed excitement about the science fair wasn't because of the fair, but because he knew that was the day they were going to "make their escape?" It could well have been pre-planned that he would sneak out the back door and meet TH somewhere - and would hide in the back of the truck or under the dash so no one would see him as they drove away.
Why? Abuse would be the most obvious possibility, but it could also be that Kyron was simply more attached to his step-mother than his father, and she could have told him that he would be taken from her.
And I know some have said that IF there WAS abuse, the simple thing would have been to alert the mother so she could take custody. Well, my understanding is that Dad had gained custody because the mother had a medical issue. TH could have been thinking "what if that medical condition re-appears or worsens?" Then the father gets custody back again - and TH is out of the picture and unable to do anything.
froginTtown
07-09-2010, 03:06 AM
*** I just wanted to show everyone why I feel close to this case.. at times I see Kyron...so sad... :(
I just changed my avitar/pic to my 11 yr old son..Him and Kyron look alot alike...
I'm computer ill. and didn't know how to do it any other way...
butterfly1978
07-09-2010, 03:16 AM
*** I just wanted to show everyone why I feel close to this case***
I just changed my avitar/pic to my 11 yr old son..Him and Kyron look alot alike...
I'm computer ill. and didn't know how to do it any other way...
No offense because I do understand you want to show why you feel close to this case, but putting pictures of kids online is not a safe thing to do, and in the media unless its worth the risk such as a missing child case media blurs the face out. Your son is beautiful, but PLEASE do the safe thing and remove his photo. JMO
froginTtown
07-09-2010, 03:34 AM
No offense because I do understand you want to show why you feel close to this case, but putting pictures of kids online is not a safe thing to do, and in the media unless its worth the risk such as a missing child case media blurs the face out. Your son is beautiful, but PLEASE do the safe thing and remove his photo. JMO
It's such a shame when you can't show a pic of your own son. What kind of a world can we expect for our children/grand children to grow up in...so sad.. <<hugs>>
It's such a shame when you can't show a pic of your own son. What kind of a world can we expect for our children/grand children to grow up in...so sad.. <<hugs>>
You can upload the picture you want to share from your User CP (user control panel) into an album.
Then you can set your privacy settings for that album and who you want to let see that pic(s). Friends only, members...etc.
Had to go look to make sure I am telling your right: Go and click on the button User CP at the top of this page. Then look at the list to the left and you will see picture and albums link (under networking heading) click on that and follow the written instructions. Hope that helps.
21merc7
07-09-2010, 06:26 AM
This is what I think!!! Also, my husband who ALWAYS comes down on the man's side in EVERYTHING, who doesn't read WS, but does watch JVM and NG, and has me give him an update every day, thinks this as well! He shocked me, truly shocked me earlier this evening when he said that.
Thanks for posting. This was my very first thought when this news came out.
KeyboardCat
07-09-2010, 06:30 AM
It's such a shame when you can't show a pic of your own son. What kind of a world can we expect for our children/grand children to grow up in...so sad.. <<hugs>>
Agreed.
I am always fearful of the possibility of someone hurting my children. I am sure I should be criticized for this, but my husband and I have a king sized bed just so our two children can sleep with us. Even though they could sleep in their own beds, I want them in my bedroom. I cannot imagine not waking up and being powerless to help them in another room while I sleep. If anyone tries to get to them, they have to go through me. I know its extreme, but my reasoning is there a man who has a history of abusing children, but managed to never be arrested for it, lives not too far from me.
I cannot imagine what the world will be like a few decades down the road.
WholeLottaRosie
07-09-2010, 06:35 AM
Agreed.
I am always fearful of the possibility of someone hurting my children. I am sure I should be criticized for this, but my husband and I have a king sized bed just so our two children can sleep with us. Even though they could sleep in their own beds, I want them in my bedroom. I cannot imagine not waking up and being powerless to help them in another room while I sleep. If anyone tries to get to them, they have to go through me. I know its extreme, but my reasoning is there a man who has a history of abusing children, but managed to never be arrested for it, lives not too far from me.
I cannot imagine what the world will be like a few decades down the road.
I think the Family Bed is a cool idea. We didn't do it, but, as a baby my daughter was always in our room, near me, at night, first in a bassinette, later in a crib - our bedroom is pretty big, and we made her area at one end. It worked for us, I sure slept better.
She has her own bedroom now, but, often sleeps in our room, on a day bed in the sitting area, by her choice. She often says she is going to sleep in her room, but will change her mind and come in.
Mylou
07-09-2010, 06:45 AM
This case I find so incredibly strange because it is like it is slowly unraveling like some kind of mystery novel. I hate thinking like this, but it seems too bizarre to be true.
I find every day now I wonder what will be next. It's like all the focus on the SM, create anger and hatred against her, increase it with a hired hitman. Only the SM part is missing, like its all about her, yet we never hear directly from her. It's like her story being told without her imput. Very very strange.
And where is Kyron in all of this? A sweet innocent boy who just disappears one day in school.
I cannot think of a case that has been in the media before where everything focus's on one person, and that person never speaks.
I don't know what to think anymore.
Im not sure I want to hear anymore, except that Kyron has been found.
Trident
07-09-2010, 06:49 AM
Just wanted to comment on part of this. I have read a lot of your posts and I respect your insight. I know for me , I see a lot of restraint and class for DY because if I thought someone had done something with or to one of my kids/grands I would NOT have that restraint. I just would not. I would probably end up in jail myself.
And you would be reacting like a real mother in my opinion.
Trident
07-09-2010, 06:55 AM
This case I find so incredibly strange because it is like it is slowly unraveling like some kind of mystery novel. I hate thinking like this, but it seems too bizarre to be true.
I find every day now I wonder what will be next. It's like all the focus on the SM, create anger and hatred against her, increase it with a hired hitman. Only the SM part is missing, like its all about her, yet we never hear directly from her. It's like her story being told without her imput. Very very strange.
And where is Kyron in all of this? A sweet innocent boy who just disappears one day in school.
I cannot think of a case that has been in the media before where everything focus's on one person, and that person never speaks.
I don't know what to think anymore.
Im not sure I want to hear anymore, except that Kyron has been found.
I agree with most of your post, but I want ALL the facts out on the table, not just the ones "allowed". I'll just bet there's a lot more that went into this disappearance than will be made public and not all of it on Terri's part.
That said, I find it very sad that TH is bearing the brunt, now even PPD, and Kyron still disappeared while there were 3 other supposedy healthy adults in this mix.
We haven't heard the end of this yet folks, and as far as I'm concerned, KYRON is the only victim.
MY OPINION ONLY
KeyboardCat
07-09-2010, 07:26 AM
WHY???!!! WHAT ON EARTH is more important than finding out where Kyron is? So she was on Sauvie buying crack? Cheating? Hiring illegal immigrants as babysitters??? What on EARTH could be so embarrassing that after a FREAKING MONTH she'd be so worried about telling the truth about if it would help advance the investigation? I just cannot wrap my mind around this. I don't care WHAT I had done...danced naked through a crack infested bordello while selling state secrets...NOTHING would be so embarrassing/illegal/immoral that it would stop me from telling the truth about my whereabouts when it came to finding an innocent child...nothing!
THIS!
Yessss
Thankyou, Rosiebean! :blowkiss:
Trident
07-09-2010, 10:40 AM
I want to say that I'm not such a fool as to disregard all the innuendoes, probable causes, and gut feelings from the bio parents and LE. HOWEVER, I need to make my stance clear.
I'm not SURE TH is innocent, nor am I sure she is guilty. What I am SURE of is we have only heard bad things about her from the other 2 bio parents. IF she was not to be trusted, where was bio mom? Did bio dad thwart her having full custody, or didn't she want it? What in 'ell went down there?
I see TH being villanized, yet the others are so close to Kyron and SEEM to appear lily pure. Well, real life doesn't work that way. NO ONE is 100% pure - what aren't we "allowed" to know about the others in the disappearance? Would all the skeletons, if they were revealed, make a different scenerio than the one we're seeing? ONE person, TH, cannot be such a villan and continue to be a wife, mother, and stepmother. This just isn't reality. If it is, then the bio parents need to get counseling for entrusting their precious child to her daily care.
I cannot say TH is innocent. I cannot say TH is guilty. I CAN say something isn't right with this entire picture.
My opinion only
tlcya
07-09-2010, 10:43 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Trident
cypress
07-09-2010, 10:53 AM
Trident, I would add my thanks to your post x 1000 if I could.
So, now it comes out that Terri has or had PPD, but people won't believe it because it supposedly helps her. Even though PPD would explain her weight gain and her supposedly strange behavior and lack of free flowing tears at the press conferences. Hmm...
Anyway, I'm not sure PPD really helps Terri, although it might explain some of her behavior. If she abducted and killed Kyron, PPD isn't going to exonerate her in the eyes of a jury, IMHO.
I don't find much of Terri's behavior all that odd. Perhaps she reacted differently than I would, but I don't know exactly how I'd react, and I pray I never have to find out. For the people saying she is acting odd, though, the PPD could definitely explain her behavior. Why is this not allowed? I'm surprised at the dismissiveness. I'm concerned about the public conviction of this woman without a shred of real evidence.
Kimster
07-09-2010, 11:22 AM
We have a new thread on this topic due to new information being released. I am closing this thread and we can continue the discussion here: If Terri didn't do it, then why..... - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
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