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eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 03:58 AM
He told WW the illness came on after the birth of their daughter K 19 months ago and lasted well over a year.

As far as Im concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone and then she could have been hiding it at that point, Kaine Horman said.

**snip**

He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.

It wasnt anything that was overly violent in nature, Horman said. It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.

**snip**

I was just supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period, which I did do, he said. And after the six months, things seemed to be OK

**snip**

Sound like PPD began shortly after baby girl was born, treatment was started, and she showed symptoms of erratic behavior until a couple months ago? Did she go off her medication? How terrible for her...for everyone. moo

To read - click on first heading in "posted in" right under the picture.

PLEASE REMEMBER - do NOT USE MINOR'S NAME...BABY GIRL, BABY K ETC. THANKS

http://www.wweek.com/

Hopeful One
07-09-2010, 04:03 AM
Wow. PPD is a scary thing. Not an excuse, at all, but she could have done anything while under the influence of such a disorder. :(

butwhatif?
07-09-2010, 04:47 AM
AD medication would explain Terri's weight gain. Maybe she went off the meds in an effort to slim down and get back to body building and normalcy.

I'm really concerned why this was not mentioned by the family earlier. Their own guilt for not doing more? Anyone going through PPD not only needs meds and psych help but a good support system around them.

If she is still unwell, then 'ganging up' on her in public was not the smartest move, imo. Empathy and psych help from the beginning would have changed the direction of this case entirely.

Kaine doesn't know what type of medication she was on? Seriously? No wonder she was a mess!! That really pizzes me off. My hubby could tell you every psych med I've ever taken! And even what time I take them.

Theres also a contradiction from Kaine in the article:

He told WW the illness came on after the birth of their daughter K 19 months ago and lasted well over a year
As far as I’m concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone — and then she could have been hiding it at that point,” Kaine Horman said.
I was just supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period, which I did do,” he said. “And after the six months, things seemed to be OK

So which is it? She was fine after 6 months, 12 months or 17 months?
What the article doesn't state, was if Desiree knew about the PPD. If she did, I cannot comprehend her actions.

This changes EVERYTHING!

It doesn't condone anything, but explains a lot!

Also brings up the question....if she was still on meds, or re-instated on meds after kyron went missing, did that affect her poly?


But playing devils advocate a lil bit here, I would think if someone was that ill, and under so much scrutiny, with bio-parents straight out blaming her, that she would have harmed herself in the last month.
Who knows. She might have, and it was swept under the carpet too.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 04:47 AM
...Horman said he’s not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it

~~snip~~

He didn't know??? How can that be? Did Terri take the medication long enough? And if she stopped, was it abrupt or did she wean off slowly.

Wish we knew about this early on. I think it could have everything to do with what has happened. moo

surrogatemom
07-09-2010, 04:54 AM
She could have hidden the severity of the PPD. Some people can do that, even if they are clinically depressed. After six months, she could have acted more "normal" and he could have assumed she was doing a bit better. Maybe not 100% like before the baby was born but maybe after six months she was doing quite a bit better than she was in the first few weeks and months after K's birth.

IMO, a lot of women are so mad at themselves for having PPD, to any degree, that they do their best at hiding it and only make it worse on themselves and possibly their babies. :(

I'm curious as to what AD she was on. I don't care if she weaned or went cold turkey (the latter being a bad idea, but regardless..). I'm just curious as to what she was on. If it were a regular AD like Zoloft or something they give people with BPD (bipolar disorder), which certain BPD drugs are prescribed for PPD sometimes (in more severe cases)?

A lot of OBs handle women and their PPD, as do general practitioners. I think they could sometimes (easily) miss when this is a case of PTSD or PPP (postpartum psychosis - very rare, but possible). So, for no real reason other than I am nosy, I am curious to know who prescribed the medications to her as well. And WHO instructed Kaine to keep an eye on her? Was it just something he opted to do or? *scratching head*

A BIG OLE' MOO TO THIS ENTIRE POST OF MINE!

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 04:57 AM
Kaine Horman, father of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman, told WW in an interview tonight Kyron’s stepmom suffered from post-partum depression and may have been hiding it when the boy disappeared.

~~snip~~

Hiding it? So maybe the medication was working, she stopped and had a relapse - before anyone saw symptoms? How tragic! :eek:

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 05:06 AM
I wonder if Terri is hospitalized right now? Could be the reason we haven't heard from her or her lawyer.

Why are we just finding out about this now??? Was it a secret of some kind?

butwhatif?
07-09-2010, 05:14 AM
Kaine Horman, father of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman, told WW in an interview tonight Kyrons stepmom suffered from post-partum depression and may have been hiding it when the boy disappeared.

~~snip~~

Hiding it? So maybe the medication was working, she stopped and had a relapse - before anyone saw symptoms? How tragic! :eek:

Was she hiding it, or did he ignore it? As someone who has those same erratic mood swings every single month (PMDD), I can tell you there is no way to hide it entirely.

Depression is easy to hide. Mood swings are not, imo.

He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.

It wasnt anything that was overly violent in nature, Horman said. It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.

Nothing overly violent?
Where is Kyron in all this?
Now I'm thinking the worst.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 05:26 AM
She could have hidden the severity of the PPD. Some people can do that, even if they are clinically depressed. After six months, she could have acted more "normal" and he could have assumed she was doing a bit better. Maybe not 100% like before the baby was born but maybe after six months she was doing quite a bit better than she was in the first few weeks and months after K's birth.

IMO, a lot of women are so mad at themselves for having PPD, to any degree, that they do their best at hiding it and only make it worse on themselves and possibly their babies. :(

I'm curious as to what AD she was on. I don't care if she weaned or went cold turkey (the latter being a bad idea, but regardless..). I'm just curious as to what she was on. If it were a regular AD like Zoloft or something they give people with BPD (bipolar disorder), which certain BPD drugs are prescribed for PPD sometimes (in more severe cases)?

A lot of OBs handle women and their PPD, as do general practitioners. I think they could sometimes (easily) miss when this is a case of PTSD or PPP (postpartum psychosis - very rare, but possible). So, for no real reason other than I am nosy, I am curious to know who prescribed the medications to her as well. And WHO instructed Kaine to keep an eye on her? Was it just something he opted to do or? *scratching head*

A BIG OLE' MOO TO THIS ENTIRE POST OF

MINE!

BBM (bolded by me)

I'm going to have to disagree with you on stopping abruptly. When ever a medication crosses the blood brain barrier and changes our neurotransmitters we can't just 'stop' the medication. It's like slamming on the brakes. The withdrawal from doing that is terrible - throat can start to close, tremors, heart pounds, dizzy, might sweat, can't make sense of surroundings.

Of course the severity depends on how long a person has been on the medication and what med it is. Antidepressants are notorious for such symptoms. Weaning off slowly, a little at a time, gives our body and brain time to adjust. Hopefully, her Dr. and pharmacist told her not to ever abruptly stop. I'm sure it's also on the label. moo mho

DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 05:31 AM
I have to admit something. I had my boy in 1985. The AIDS epidemic was in full blown and not a lot was known about it and it was always fatal. I had lived in Los Angeles and dated a man I found out later was bi. After that I got married and pregnant. With all the news about AIDS coming out I became obsessed that I had it and would give it to my baby. I don't even know if there was a test yet for it. After he was born I was terrified that because of my bad choices my baby was going to suffer. I honestly thought I had gotten it from being with a bi man and passed it to my son. I started making plans to kill myself and the baby. I was going to park in the garage and turn the car on. I told no one, I was so ashamed. I felt like I was a bad person and didn't deserve such a wonderful baby and because of me he was going to suffer and die. This went on for a while before I could finally talk to my doctor about it. He assured me that chances of me having contracted the virus was very low even though I had unprotected sex. He educated me about the disease and why he was sure I didn't have it. I was afraid he would lock me up I was so fearful.
The bottom line is that after a while and due to educating myself I eventually stopped being obsesses and fearful. I don't remember if he had given medication, he might have. The point is my thinking was out of control irrational and because of my shame I kept it hiden. Thank God I never carried out my plans but I loved my baby too much. I was just fearful that I had condemned him to a terrible disease and we would both die. It seemed perfectly rational at the time. It did pass once I was aware that I had no signs and I allowed reality to come into the picture.
The point I am trying to make is how difficult PPD is. I think I may have even passed into PPP because my thinking was so irrational. I could have hurt myself and my baby if I didn't get help. It was only a few weeks thank God but I can understand how that can affect an otherwise normal person. Looking back I couldn't believe how consumed with fear I was over something that was very unlikely to happen.
If Terri had PPD or worse PPP I can see her becoming fixated on Kyron and maybe she felt there was something evil about him that she had to eliminate. I have heard other woman say they killed their baby because they were sure it was possessed by the devil or would go to hell. Terri didn't focus on her own child though but she may have focused on Kyron and a real threat to her baby. She might have convinced herself that he was dangerous and would hurt her baby if she didn't do something. I can see how it twists you mind and make you believe straight out lies and feel like you are the only one to fix this. My experience happened a few weeks after my baby was born but I can see how it could continue on, especially if she were feeding into it.
I am thinking Kaine is handing Terri a defense right on a silver platter for whatever reason. He may feel guilty for not doing more or helping more of leaving with the kids. It sounds like he is a lot of pain right now.
I'm not excusing anything Terri may have done because of these problems. She still has to be accountable for her actions. I just think that maybe Terri wasn't in control and wasn't able to get in control and had to listen to the voices that convince you to do something evil in order to protect your baby. God help her.

sorrell skye
07-09-2010, 05:31 AM
Eyes - since you're our resident pharmacist, can you tell me if SSRIs are often prescribed for TX of PPD? TIA!

yosande
07-09-2010, 05:32 AM
I'm not buying this bit of news, but I'm glad I read the comments from the link.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 05:41 AM
Eyes - since you're our resident pharmacist, can you tell me if SSRIs are often prescribed for TX of PPD? TIA!

Hi sorrell - I've seen SSRI's given for PPD. I know what you are thinking - in some it can cause a worsening of suicidal ideation or may result in lashing out to others. Especially in children (has a black box warning). Can cause severe agitation and increase anger. Very important for us to know what medication she was taking. moo

ETA: Hopefully Terri was being monitored for symptoms and if anger/agitation occurred, she was switched to another AD. Some adverse reactions and side effects are rare but when they happen to you it's 100%. moo

Hopeful One
07-09-2010, 05:43 AM
How can you hide depression from your spouse??? I know I can hide a lot of moods from coworkers, friends, etc. But my spouse can definitely tell when I'm not myself. His statements make me think he was either in complete denial or their marriage was in such trouble that he was oblivious to her moods.

DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 05:48 AM
I wanted to add that if Terri had PPD or PPP and that is the reason she did what she did they Kyron is most likely not alive. If she had fantasies about a life without him she could have given him to Desiree to raise. She probably had fantasies about a world without him to threaten her child and marriage.

sttct
07-09-2010, 05:55 AM
Wow...this could be them giving SM kinda a heads up that they knew she was sick. I have taken AD for PPD and they try to wean you off fairly quickly. Insurance doesn't want to pay for them after 6 months and want you to go to therapy to deal with your problems. At least this was the case with my insurance. I wonder if she was seeing a therapist. If not, maybe this would have helped. My husband probably couldn't tell you what medication I was on, but if there was an investigation he'd certainly try to find out! He'd probably be able to identify it if someone said it by name which was Effexor. I feel so bad for Kyron. If she is responsible, which remains to be seen of course, I hope that things weren't horrible for him. I hope he had no idea.

Trident
07-09-2010, 06:01 AM
This case is like taking a trip down the Yellow Brick Road with a real cast of characters. Right now, I don't know what I believe.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 06:03 AM
If Terri was breast feeding that would make a difference as to what AD she was put on. Most AD are excreted in the breast milk, some just a little, and some not at all. Wonder what AD she was on? moo

sorrell skye
07-09-2010, 06:11 AM
This is seriously messed up. IDK what else to say.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/08/kaine-horman-kyrons-stepmom-suffered-post-partum-depression/

“As far as I’m concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone — and then she could have been hiding it at that point,” Kaine Horman said.

He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.
“It wasn’t anything that was overly violent in nature,” Horman said. “It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.”

Horman said he’s not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it.

How does one hide "erratic mood swings"? As a female who has experienced the wonderful effects of PMS over the years and now the joys of peri-menopause, I will be the first to testify (and my family members will agree lol) that mood swings are not something that can simply be hidden. We're sometimes at the mercy of our endocrine systems, even when we're completely healthy.

And I agree with others who have said if he was "supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period" why didn't he know what medication she was prescribed? IMO, part of watching someone closely who is ill is making sure they take their medication so that they get well.

This stinks. I need to open a few windows to let some air in.

Emeralgem
07-09-2010, 06:15 AM
I'm not buying this bit of news, but I'm glad I read the comments from the link.

I'm not buying it either..Now.. I'll go read the comments at that link..JMO

DairyGirl
07-09-2010, 06:19 AM
This may have been discussed but maybe Kaine is sending a message to Terri, kind of like I understand that you had problems and it wasn't your fault? Maybe to let her guard down and be able to admit what happened?

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 06:21 AM
This is seriously messed up. IDK what else to say.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/08/kaine-horman-kyrons-stepmom-suffered-post-partum-depression/

“As far as I’m concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone — and then she could have been hiding it at that point,” Kaine Horman said.

He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.
“It wasn’t anything that was overly violent in nature,” Horman said. “It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.”

Horman said he’s not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it.

How does one hide "erratic mood swings"? As a female who has experienced the wonderful effects of PMS over the years and now the joys of peri-menopause, I will be the first to testify (and my family members will agree lol) that mood swings are not something that can simply be hidden. We're sometimes at the mercy of our endocrine systems, even when we're completely healthy.

And I agree with others who have said if he was "supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period" why didn't he know what medication she was prescribed? IMO, part of watching someone closely who is ill is making sure they take their medication so that they get well.
Often
This stinks. I need to open a few windows to let some air in.

Maybe she was on a couple medications. Often, an underlying hormonal imbalance is occurring so Tx is with both, AD and hormones. Maybe he didn't know the names. Wasn't interested. Or feels bad about not telling us this info for so long. moo

seekingjustice**
07-09-2010, 06:22 AM
I had PPD, thankfully not PPP. I never wanted to hurt my baby, more the opposite really. I was obsessed with her and wouldn't let anybody else hold her.

I wonder if this is a 'way out of this mess' statement from Kaine to Terri.

s_finch
07-09-2010, 06:27 AM
Sounds to me like Kaine is helping her defense team with the hope he finds out where Kyron is. I imagine that all Kaine cares about right now is finding Kyron and keeping baby K safe. TH has the answers to the questions, helping her only helps Kaine.

From a personal perspective it doesn't sound like she had PPP. I had a relative with PPP and she could not function in any kind of way for 2 years. PPD on the other hand sounds to me like what TH had (and is what Kaine said) and that's actually a fairly flimsy defense but a help with her defense all the same.

When LE and DY said that they believe Kyron is alive, I wondered if possibly they found an unexplainable chunk of money in TH's possession and that makes them think she sold Kyron.

JMOO

cluciano63
07-09-2010, 08:12 AM
Why would Kaine admit this, which seems to help Terri out, but not even have an opinion about Terri's relationship with Kyron? Unless he knows it was very bad. Then he would not want to say anything.

I am really confused, but I can see even more how something spontaneous may have happened on that day, if she was on or off the meds all year and maybe was even taking something else to try to take off weight, for all we know. She may have been on a combination of things-she looked as though she could have been on meds during that first PC.

CocoChanel
07-09-2010, 08:15 AM
Hi sorrell - I've seen SSRI's given for PPD. I know what you are thinking - in some it can cause a worsening of suicidal ideation or may result in lashing out to others. Especially in children (has a black box warning). Can cause severe agitation and increase anger. Very important for us to know what medication she was taking. moo

ETA: Hopefully Terri was being monitored for symptoms and if anger/agitation occurred, she was switched to another AD. Some adverse reactions and side effects are rare but when they happen to you it's 100%. moo

I believe these press events with DY & KH are very much planned and orchestrated with direction from FBI or other LE experts. I believe they are well coached on what and what not to say. Under such circumstances, I believe they were instructed NOT to say the names of any medications at this time in the investigation. I believe that when this case comes to trial, IF TH is the one accused, specific medications will play a huge role in the evidence. But at this juncture, I think it will only be referred to in passing so as not to muddy the waters. Imagine if KH had identified a specific AD in the interviews as one TH was taking regularly. The pharmaceutical company would have the beginning of a PR nightmare, and countless people taking that Rx would perhaps worry about being 'like TH'. That may still happen, but we won't know yet until a trial. Right now we just need to FIND KYRON. And if KH's description of TH's PPD, without disclosing the specific med, helps accomplish that by affecting public opinion into being a bit more understanding of what might have led to this tragedy, I'm all for it.

Aedrys
07-09-2010, 08:16 AM
You have to remember, Kaine is a man. Men just don't pay enough attention, especially when it's women problems. When I've had mood swings around my husband, he gives me space, and even if we talk about it later, we don't talk for a long time, just enough that we know everything is back to normal and we can move on. My point is, if something were severely wrong with me, I'm sure my husband would know, but I'm not sure how closely he'd watch me or if he'd even pay attention to what medication I'm on unless it's one he already knows about, especially if it's a woman problem. He already doesn't like me talking about a period or women things like tampons or pads. He doesn't even want to think about his daughter becoming a woman. Men don't like to fixate on woman problems, even PPD.

Also, men just want things to be fixed. I'm sure he did watch her, and probably knew she was on medication, and that was the extent of it. He probably just wanted her fixed, probably wanted the problem to go away, and like every man, doesn't understand that some problems can't just be fixed. It takes time, and even with time, there's no guarantee she was going to be PPD free someday.

He probably had the hope that she would be okay and never dreamed she would get to the point where she would harm someone. There's a big difference between someone who is sick and needs help, and someone who would harm someone else. I doubt Kaine ever thought she would hurt one of his kids, and why would he necessarily make that leap?

I'm not going to come down hard on Kaine with something like this. Men just don't understand things like PPD, or PPP, or heck, even PMS, or PMDD. When it comes to women problems, men leave that to the women. Now if it's a man problem, they know all about that and will handle that, but don't want to talk about it.

Yes, maybe he should have paid more attention, and if he was a woman, he would have, but he's a man, and they just don't pay enough attention. Heck, I have to tell my husband and dad when I get a haircut because unless I shave my head, they wouldn't notice otherwise. Now the women in my life would notice if I cut just an inch. That's just how it is with men and women.

ElizaAvalon
07-09-2010, 08:22 AM
Just because Kaine does not know what meds his wife was on does not mean she was not on any.

My son has been taking the same daily medication for the past 3 years and my husband (who occasionally administers it) could not tell you the name of it - he just knows what it's for.

oh_gal
07-09-2010, 08:25 AM
She could have hidden the severity of the PPD. Some people can do that, even if they are clinically depressed. After six months, she could have acted more "normal" and he could have assumed she was doing a bit better. Maybe not 100% like before the baby was born but maybe after six months she was doing quite a bit better than she was in the first few weeks and months after K's birth.

IMO, a lot of women are so mad at themselves for having PPD, to any degree, that they do their best at hiding it and only make it worse on themselves and possibly their babies. :(

I'm curious as to what AD she was on. I don't care if she weaned or went cold turkey (the latter being a bad idea, but regardless..). I'm just curious as to what she was on. If it were a regular AD like Zoloft or something they give people with BPD (bipolar disorder), which certain BPD drugs are prescribed for PPD sometimes (in more severe cases)?

A lot of OBs handle women and their PPD, as do general practitioners. I think they could sometimes (easily) miss when this is a case of PTSD or PPP (postpartum psychosis - very rare, but possible). So, for no real reason other than I am nosy, I am curious to know who prescribed the medications to her as well. And WHO instructed Kaine to keep an eye on her? Was it just something he opted to do or? *scratching head*

A BIG OLE' MOO TO THIS ENTIRE POST OF MINE!

(bbm)
After 6 months of living with or experiencing any type of behavior, I wonder if you start to become desensitized to it (both the person suffering and family affected by it) so that what first seemed really bizzare 6 months ago seems like standard operating procedure after enduring it for 6 months.

CocoChanel
07-09-2010, 08:27 AM
Why would Kaine admit this, which seems to help Terri out, but not even have an opinion about Terri's relationship with Kyron? Unless he knows it was very bad. Then he would not want to say anything.

I am really confused, but I can see even more how something spontaneous may have happened on that day, if she was on or off the meds all year and maybe was even taking something else to try to take off weight, for all we know. She may have been on a combination of things-she looked as though she could have been on meds during that first PC.

BBM

You may be right. That helps me understand a bit why she looked and acted so oddly. Count me as one who thought TH stuck out like a sore thumb during that presser.

rosiebean
07-09-2010, 08:28 AM
How can you hide depression from your spouse??? I know I can hide a lot of moods from coworkers, friends, etc. But my spouse can definitely tell when I'm not myself. His statements make me think he was either in complete denial or their marriage was in such trouble that he was oblivious to her moods.
I had a, thankfully, mild case of PPD that went undiagnosed almost until I was climbing out of it (it took me feeling good to realize how bad I'd felt). My husband knew I wasn't myself, but he blamed that on our busy schedule and having two kids under two years old. I've since met other women who were depressed for a while before diagnosis (PPD and other forms), and for quite a few of them, the illness almost wrecked their marriages. If Kaine and TH were having problems, it could very well have been due to the PPD...even when diagnosed properly, depression is very hard on couples. I am lucky that my husband put up with a lot from me when I wasn't myself. I remind myself of that every time he leaves socks on the floor, lol.

If she is still suffering from PPD and is involved, it explains a lot, IMO.

keeponsearching
07-09-2010, 08:28 AM
My friends mom was a changed person during her menstrual cycle, I wonder if thats when the erratic behavior took place. The friend would tell me anything could make her mom blow up, and even once her mom had hit her, enough to bruise.... I think after having kids, some people hormonal level doesn't balance quite right.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 08:28 AM
I believe these press events with DY & KH are very much planned and orchestrated with direction from FBI or other LE experts. I believe they are well coached on what and what not to say. Under such cercumstances, I believe they were instructed NOT to say the names of any medications at this time in the investigation. I believe that when this case comes to trial, IF TH is the one accused, medication will play a huge role in the evidence. But at this juncture, I think it will only be referred to in passing so as not to muddy the waters. Imagine if KH identifies a specific AD as one TH was taking regularly. The pharmaceutical company would have the beginning of a PR nightmare. That may still happen, but we won't know yet until a trial. Right now we just need to FIND KYRON. And if KH's description of TH's PPD, without disclosing the specific med, helps accomplish that by affecting public opinion into being a bit more understanding of what might have led to this tragedy, I'm all for it.

You make some good points and I agree with you. PPD is very complex and usually treated with hormone therapy and an antidepressant. If there is evidence of a thought disorder or delusional thinking an antipsychotic medication would be in order.

Lots of side effects along with many physical/social/emotional changes - can't stop wondering about postpartum depression/psychosis. Knowing her medication would tell us what she was being treated for. I know, it's not for us to know, but I still am curious, and now, very afraid for Kyron.

I find it important if psychosis was involved because that could very well explain why Kyron is missing.

cluciano63
07-09-2010, 08:29 AM
I'm not finding it more likely that Kyron is hidden away if Terri was suffering from depression, etc...in fact ,probably less. Maybe back when/if she tried to hire the landscaper, she was at her wit's end...and more recently, she was still suffering, but more in secret and less likely to be looking to the outside for "help" with anything. I fear that this bodes worse for Kyron, if Terri has mentally unstable for as long as 18 months, perhaps. I do think that if she tried to hire someone to kill Kaine, that she truly believed he had wronged her. And when her plans did not come to fruition, she may have stewed quietly all of the following months until "snapping." Talk about a case for "Snapped."...

redkatrampant
07-09-2010, 08:34 AM
I am BiPolar. I have stated that in previous posts. I was dx 16 years ago. I have been on various meds and combination of meds. My DH who has always been very involved in my treatment could NOT NAME any of my drugs if you asked them. At some points he has even doled them out or I would forget to take them. He could not ,even them, name them.

hollye
07-09-2010, 08:40 AM
I am BiPolar. I have stated that in previous posts. I was dx 16 years ago. I have been on various meds and combination of meds. My DH who has always been very involved in my treatment could NOT NAME any of my drugs if you asked them. At some points he has even doled them out or I would forget to take them. He could not ,even them, name them.

I have to agree. I take a few meds for various things and I can guarantee that my husband does not have a clue what meds I take. He knows where to find them, if an emergency came up and he needed to be able to tell someone what I take, but he has no idea what I actually take on a daily basis.

WholeLottaRosie
07-09-2010, 08:40 AM
And at her age, she could be peri menopausal, which brings its own hormone issues. If she were being treated/on meds, which I think from the first presser as well, that could well affect a polygraph.

I have been on a lot of meds at various times in the past 12 years. I keep a list in my wallet and one on our frig, of mine and anything any family member is on. DH can always tell you what anyone has it for, and often the drug, but not always. This makes it easy if he would ever have to be the one to tell someone if I couldn't. Right now its only two, but he knows them, as I just asked him. LOL. And I list supplements/vitamins on the lists as well, so EMTs/ER can know that as well.

evelyn24
07-09-2010, 08:55 AM
I'm not buying this carp. If she did this to Kyron, it wasn't some erratic emotional outburst or mood swing, but a carefully planned sneaky evil plot.
I think Kaine is trying to find solace in the fact his entire life with this woman wasn't some big lie, and he surely feels guilt over Kyron's disappearance. It's easier to blame something else, something outwardly, than believe the person you loved, married, and had kids with is a liar and capable of hurting you and your child. It's easier than believing you were that blind and foolish to not see it. Not saying Kaine was blind or foolish but just that HE probably feels this way, and now he needs an explanation for the unexplainable. It gives people peace of mind to be able to find a reason for the unreasonable.
But anyway....

redkatrampant
07-09-2010, 08:55 AM
And at her age, she could be peri menopausal, which brings its own hormone issues. If she were being treated/on meds, which I think from the first presser as well, that could well affect a polygraph.

I have been on a lot of meds at various times in the past 12 years. I keep a list in my wallet and one on our frig, of mine and anything any family member is on. DH can always tell you what anyone has it for, and often the drug, but not always. This makes it easy if he would ever have to be the one to tell someone if I couldn't. Right now its only two, but he knows them, as I just asked him. LOL. And I list supplements/vitamins on the lists as well, so EMTs/ER can know that as well.

Yes the hormones play a big part in it. This is why IMO she had either PPD or BP.One of the reasons that I had to change drugs was the huge wave of changing hormones that hit when the change hit. ( the only thing that has changed for ME is that my friend visits a LOT more each month). I too have a list of course because I am also on meds for high blood pressure, anemia ( figure THAT out :P) and a beta blocker. Dh would know where to find this list but not being able to tell you right off the top of his head.

LiveLaughLuv
07-09-2010, 08:55 AM
Why would Kaine admit this, which seems to help Terri out, but not even have an opinion about Terri's relationship with Kyron? Unless he knows it was very bad. Then he would not want to say anything.

I am really confused, but I can see even more how something spontaneous may have happened on that day, if she was on or off the meds all year and maybe was even taking something else to try to take off weight, for all we know. She may have been on a combination of things-she looked as though she could have been on meds during that first PC.

You know, I had this gut feeling once I heard/read TH was a body builder, could she have been taking steroids/diet aids to get her back to her weight building days? Those drugs coupled with PPD would reek havoc on one's mind, body and soul. Didn't she think Kaine was having an affair? Could she have become paranoid with the use of those aminoacid type drugs body builders usually use to increase muscles??? Did she not feel good about her appearance??? I saw she wore the oversized shirts so I'd assume that was the case...whatever it is, I just hope and pray Kyron is alive and well with someone caring for him...JHMO

Where is Kyron???

Trident
07-09-2010, 08:58 AM
I believe these press events with DY & KH are very much planned and orchestrated with direction from FBI or other LE experts. I believe they are well coached on what and what not to say. Under such circumstances, I believe they were instructed NOT to say the names of any medications at this time in the investigation. I believe that when this case comes to trial, IF TH is the one accused, specific medications will play a huge role in the evidence. But at this juncture, I think it will only be referred to in passing so as not to muddy the waters. Imagine if KH had identified a specific AD in the interviews as one TH was taking regularly. The pharmaceutical company would have the beginning of a PR nightmare, and countless people taking that Rx would perhaps worry about being 'like TH'. That may still happen, but we won't know yet until a trial. Right now we just need to FIND KYRON. And if KH's description of TH's PPD, without disclosing the specific med, helps accomplish that by affecting public opinion into being a bit more understanding of what might have led to this tragedy, I'm all for it.

BBM In my opinion, these press events may be orchestrated by the lady who owns the church, the one who told people in a newsletter what they should and should not speak about.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 09:01 AM
You know, I had this gut feeling once I heard/read TH was a body builder, could she have been taking steroids/diet aids to get her back to her weight building days? Those drugs coupled with PPD would reek havoc on one's mind, body and soul. Didn't she think Kaine was having an affair? Could she have become paranoid with the use of those aminoacid type drugs body builders usually use to increase muscles??? Did she not feel good about her appearance??? I saw she wore the oversized shirts so I'd assume that was the case...whatever it is, I just hope and pray Kyron is alive and well with someone caring for him...JHMO

Where is Kyron???

IMO, I don't see one bit of evidence Terri was on anabolic steroids. She doesn't look like she was, not even a little bit. I would hate to see this thread shut down due steroid talk... moo

LiveLaughLuv
07-09-2010, 09:23 AM
IMO, I don't see one bit of evidence Terri was on anabolic steroids. She doesn't look like she was, not even a little bit. I would hate to see this thread shut down due steroid talk... moo

Not trying to get this thread shut down. I am just speculating as everyone is..Why could this not be a possibility? What would a person look like if they took steroids??? She had been in body building competitions most don't get that large muscle mass just with weight training alone, do they??? Her weight gain after pregnancy might have been weighing heavy on her, seems she took great pride in her body building days....JMHO

Just specualtion on my part, no where did I say she was???

Where is Kyron!

GrainneDhu
07-09-2010, 09:24 AM
I have to admit something. I had my boy in 1985. The AIDS epidemic was in full blown and not a lot was known about it and it was always fatal. I had lived in Los Angeles and dated a man I found out later was bi. After that I got married and pregnant. With all the news about AIDS coming out I became obsessed that I had it and would give it to my baby. I don't even know if there was a test yet for it. After he was born I was terrified that because of my bad choices my baby was going to suffer. I honestly thought I had gotten it from being with a bi man and passed it to my son. I started making plans to kill myself and the baby. I was going to park in the garage and turn the car on. I told no one, I was so ashamed. I felt like I was a bad person and didn't deserve such a wonderful baby and because of me he was going to suffer and die. This went on for a while before I could finally talk to my doctor about it. He assured me that chances of me having contracted the virus was very low even though I had unprotected sex. He educated me about the disease and why he was sure I didn't have it. I was afraid he would lock me up I was so fearful.
The bottom line is that after a while and due to educating myself I eventually stopped being obsesses and fearful. I don't remember if he had given medication, he might have. The point is my thinking was out of control irrational and because of my shame I kept it hiden. Thank God I never carried out my plans but I loved my baby too much. I was just fearful that I had condemned him to a terrible disease and we would both die. It seemed perfectly rational at the time. It did pass once I was aware that I had no signs and I allowed reality to come into the picture.
The point I am trying to make is how difficult PPD is. I think I may have even passed into PPP because my thinking was so irrational. I could have hurt myself and my baby if I didn't get help. It was only a few weeks thank God but I can understand how that can affect an otherwise normal person. Looking back I couldn't believe how consumed with fear I was over something that was very unlikely to happen.
If Terri had PPD or worse PPP I can see her becoming fixated on Kyron and maybe she felt there was something evil about him that she had to eliminate. I have heard other woman say they killed their baby because they were sure it was possessed by the devil or would go to hell. Terri didn't focus on her own child though but she may have focused on Kyron and a real threat to her baby. She might have convinced herself that he was dangerous and would hurt her baby if she didn't do something. I can see how it twists you mind and make you believe straight out lies and feel like you are the only one to fix this. My experience happened a few weeks after my baby was born but I can see how it could continue on, especially if she were feeding into it.
I am thinking Kaine is handing Terri a defense right on a silver platter for whatever reason. He may feel guilty for not doing more or helping more of leaving with the kids. It sounds like he is a lot of pain right now.
I'm not excusing anything Terri may have done because of these problems. She still has to be accountable for her actions. I just think that maybe Terri wasn't in control and wasn't able to get in control and had to listen to the voices that convince you to do something evil in order to protect your baby. God help her.

Dairy Girl, that was an incredibly brave post. Since you went first, I feel braver about sharing.

I have clinical depression. Had on and off periods of depression (maybe once a year, 2-3 months each time) from the time I was six years old. I was able to cope and compensate for it pretty well.

Then I had an infection that nearly killed me, spent a couple weeks in ICU, etc, and after that, it was like my brain was broken. All I felt was the depression and I was no longer able to cope or compensate for it. My doctor said that the illness probably did change something permanently in my brain chemistry. I went on antidepressant meds and although they don't control it completely, I generally do pretty well with it.

What I learned from that experience, though, is that I cannot trust my own mind or emotions. There are times when I have irrational reactions to things. I've learned to do a lot of reality checking and not to just accept that my first reaction is the "real me," so to speak.

Weirdly enough, I've been evaluated by four different psychologists as being a normal, well adjusted person who happens to have depression, not recommended for psychotherapy.

My point in all this, though, is that I was really very lucky. I figured out years before my brain was broken for good that when I am depressed, I cannot trust my own thoughts or reactions. I was blessed to come from a loving, stable, supportive family and to have found my terrific spouse who brings nothing but sunshine to my life.

If I hadn't been so fortunate, well, I don't know what I would have done or become. There, but by the grace of the ghods, go I.

chaddylex
07-09-2010, 09:30 AM
I had PPD after my son was born. (He's my 4th child and now is 7) I was also having anxiety attacks, and at first had no clue what the heck they were until I went to the hospital because I couldn't breathe.

My Dr then put me on Effexor and it really it seemed to help. I thought I didn't need them anymore and I thought I could go off of them cold turkey.... well let me tell you that was the worst mistake I could have ever made. The thoughts I had in my head and the bad headaches were like no other. It scared me and I told my husband... the bad thoughts and headaches eventually went away thank goodness.

My point is, if she TH was on meds and she didn't wean herself off, it could have made her worse, but it still doesn't give reason for her to hurt Kyron. In no way am I defending her... I am just saying about what the meds did to me.

Also my husband had no clue what the names of the AD I had been on, but he did know that I was on something. I didn't tell him that I quit taking Effexor when I first did but he thought something was up because of my mood swings. Then I told him about my bad thoughts and headaches.


I just hope they find this sweet little boy alive. My son is the same age, and I can't imagine how his parents feel.

gliving
07-09-2010, 09:39 AM
I'm really sorry Terri had postpartum depression. Still, to say depression equals murder is a stretch for me, and for any other mother who is coping with PPD at this time.

It's insensitive and perhaps misogynic.

Astrella613
07-09-2010, 09:59 AM
Sounds to me like Kaine is helping her defense team with the hope he finds out where Kyron is. I imagine that all Kaine cares about right now is finding Kyron and keeping baby K safe. TH has the answers to the questions, helping her only helps Kaine.

From a personal perspective it doesn't sound like she had PPP. I had a relative with PPP and she could not function in any kind of way for 2 years. PPD on the other hand sounds to me like what TH had (and is what Kaine said) and that's actually a fairly flimsy defense but a help with her defense all the same.

When LE and DY said that they believe Kyron is alive, I wondered if possibly they found an unexplainable chunk of money in TH's possession and that makes them think she sold Kyron.

JMOO

I was just going to type the same thing. He is helping her defense. IMO, mood swings wouldn't cause anyone to plan a murder or kidnapping. Hiring a hit man to kill your husband and taking your stepson to school, never to be seen since are not caused by any PPD or medication that may or may not have been taken. If this caused her to commit a violent act against him then they wouldn't have this hope that he is still alive. Just don't think PPD had anything to do with this.

Barry
07-09-2010, 10:02 AM
Would he or LE not by now have checked the pharmecy records to see what she was taking and how much? It seems strange he wouldn't know by now what she was taking.

Regardless, if this information is true, what a tragedy all the way around. And the innocent Kyron caught in the middle of it all. Very sad :(

Juno
07-09-2010, 10:02 AM
If Terri was breast feeding that would make a difference as to what AD she was put on. Most AD are excreted in the breast milk, some just a little, and some not at all. Wonder what AD she was on? moo

You are correct. I had a mild case of PPD with anxiety and hallucinations. Because I was breastfeeding I was given Zoloft, which is what many women I know who are breastfeeding are given if PPD is suspected. Zoloft is pretty mild in my opinion, but it helped tremendously. I had no side affects while weaning off of it at about 10 months post-partum.

Aedrys
07-09-2010, 10:35 AM
I'm not buying this carp. If she did this to Kyron, it wasn't some erratic emotional outburst or mood swing, but a carefully planned sneaky evil plot.
I think Kaine is trying to find solace in the fact his entire life with this woman wasn't some big lie, and he surely feels guilt over Kyron's disappearance. It's easier to blame something else, something outwardly, than believe the person you loved, married, and had kids with is a liar and capable of hurting you and your child. It's easier than believing you were that blind and foolish to not see it. Not saying Kaine was blind or foolish but just that HE probably feels this way, and now he needs an explanation for the unexplainable. It gives people peace of mind to be able to find a reason for the unreasonable.
But anyway....

I agree. And I think she was putting together a defense with PPD long before Kaine said she had it. I think she believes it's the thing that is going to save her, and maybe that's why she had more confidence she could pull this off. She probably knew she had something to blame that in her mind takes the responsibility for what happened to Kyron off of her hands.

I'm not saying she wasn't sick, but I think she's going to be hiding under the PPD flag. We can see Kaine is already blaming this on the PPD, and I think that gives her hope that she still be able to get away with this. I wonder if maybe Kaine said it to give her false hope, and with that false hope she might do something stupid to give herself away or incriminate herself. She seems like the type that would cling to something or someone else to blame to exonerate herself, even something like PPD. If she truly is narscisstic, then the next thing we'll see from her is her being the poster child for PPD and getting treament for it, and she will completely blame it for anything bad she's done.

Again, I'm not saying she's not sick, but I have been wondering what in the world made her think she could do this and get away with it. I'm now thinking PPD is the answer.

adh74
07-09-2010, 10:38 AM
How can you hide depression from your spouse??? I know I can hide a lot of moods from coworkers, friends, etc. But my spouse can definitely tell when I'm not myself. His statements make me think he was either in complete denial or their marriage was in such trouble that he was oblivious to her moods.

I can tell you from personal experience that PPD/PPP can be hidden. I was severely PPD after having my first daughter. I put on a happy face and looked like a doting new mother on the outside. But on the inside, I was completely suicidal and homicidal. I was eventually diagnosed with severe PTSD and PPD bordering on PPP after I tried to hurt my baby. Fortunately, I had a brief moment of clarity and called my husband to tell him he needed to come home from work, that something really bad had happened. He took me to get help. Part of my treatment plan was that I was not allowed to be left alone with the baby for 6 months or until my care providers signed off on it. Over the next 6 months, I gradually got better and became fairly functional for the most part. But diagnostically, I still had PPD for about 18 months.

My guess is that TH has/had PPD/PPP and started this whole plan when she was in the worst of her PPD/PPP. The PPD/PPP may have gotten better to the point where she was functional and those around her thought she was doing well, but she had already gottent he ball rolling on this grand plan. Or perhaps the people she has assiciated herself with weren't letting her off the hook. Perhaps she had made a deal with a hitman, and when they started threatening her to come up with the money, she gave them Kyron or sold him to pay the hitman.

adh74
07-09-2010, 10:43 AM
This may have been discussed but maybe Kaine is sending a message to Terri, kind of like I understand that you had problems and it wasn't your fault? Maybe to let her guard down and be able to admit what happened?

I agree. They've been cranking up the pressure all week. Perhaps now they are trying to give her an "out" in hopes she'll come forward with information. Even if she claims temporary insanity from the PPD/PPP, at least they'd have Kyron back. I wouldn't be surprised if TH's defense attorney is trying to work out a deal for leniency in exchange for information leading to the discovery of Kyron's location.

Barry
07-09-2010, 10:53 AM
It sure does seem like they're trying to give TH a way out. Where I am confused on this, is cannot this type of negotiation dialog be done directly with her lawyer? If it's a psych game, I don't understand how they could really be confident they (LE,FBI, etc.) have an accurate diagnosis of her mental makeup, especially given that none of them likely would have even sat down for a therapy session with her. A dangerous game indeed.

In some ways, it seems like the bio parents are operating independently of LE, and that all of this info is being directed at the public, and not at TH. If that's the case, you begin to wonder when the other shoe is going to drop from the "other side".

All JMOO, etc, etc...

Calliope
07-09-2010, 10:54 AM
AD medication would explain Terri's weight gain. Maybe she went off the meds in an effort to slim down and get back to body building and normalcy.

I'm really concerned why this was not mentioned by the family earlier. Their own guilt for not doing more? Anyone going through PPD not only needs meds and psych help but a good support system around them.

If she is still unwell, then 'ganging up' on her in public was not the smartest move, imo. Empathy and psych help from the beginning would have changed the direction of this case entirely.

Kaine doesn't know what type of medication she was on? Seriously? No wonder she was a mess!! That really pizzes me off. My hubby could tell you every psych med I've ever taken! And even what time I take them.

Theres also a contradiction from Kaine in the article:



So which is it? She was fine after 6 months, 12 months or 17 months?
What the article doesn't state, was if Desiree knew about the PPD. If she did, I cannot comprehend her actions.

This changes EVERYTHING!

It doesn't condone anything, but explains a lot!

Also brings up the question....if she was still on meds, or re-instated on meds after kyron went missing, did that affect her poly?


But playing devils advocate a lil bit here, I would think if someone was that ill, and under so much scrutiny, with bio-parents straight out blaming her, that she would have harmed herself in the last month.
Who knows. She might have, and it was swept under the carpet too.

bbm

Frankly, I'm taking what Kaine says with a HUGE grain of salt.

GrainneDhu
07-09-2010, 10:56 AM
My guess is that TH has/had PPD/PPP and started this whole plan when she was in the worst of her PPD/PPP. The PPD/PPP may have gotten better to the point where she was functional and those around her thought she was doing well, but she had already gottent he ball rolling on this grand plan.

SBM

That reminds me of something.

People who are starting to recover from severe clinical depression are at their highest risk of suicide when they start to recover. When they are at the worst stage of depression, they may not have enough energy to come up with a plan or act on the plan.

When they start to recover, they go through a period of time where their thinking is still disordered but they have enough energy to act on their suicidal thoughts.

Just something else to think on.

citigirl
07-09-2010, 10:56 AM
I really don't mind if KH is giving TH what she needs for a defense.

If it makes her feel safer to open up about what happened to Kyron, I am all for it. The focus right now should be on finding Kyron.

There is all the time in the world to start assigning blame after he is home and safe....

Calliope
07-09-2010, 11:00 AM
And I agree with others who have said if he was "supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period" why didn't he know what medication she was prescribed? IMO, part of watching someone closely who is ill is making sure they take their medication so that they get well.

This stinks. I need to open a few windows to let some air in.

(respectfully snipped)

Considering how detail-oriented he appears to be, in addition to your point, leads me to believe he's not telling the truth here. I'm sure her meds and docs were paid for by his insurance, too.

RubyRed
07-09-2010, 11:01 AM
bbm

Frankly, I'm taking what Kaine says with a HUGE grain of salt.

In this video, KH and DY say that TH changed after Kyron went missing. What would be the reason for lying? What do you think?

http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/07/kyron_hormans_parents_share_de.html

tfrohning
07-09-2010, 11:03 AM
First I don't understand why Kaine would do a interview with WW after kicking them out of the presser last week.

Kaine coming out and telling medical history at this time is just crazy... I thought that a LD could not be given to people with mental issues or if they were on anti-psychotic drugs.

Did Kaine go to the doctor with her? Who told him to watch her for 6 months?

Snip
“It wasn’t anything that was overly violent in nature,” Horman said. “It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.”

Any show of violent I would not let my kids be left alone with her.

I think Kaine using sugar to get to Terri "we know your were having trouble just tell us where Kyron is....

I not buying this....I read up on PPD the mother kills her offspring most of the time and that very rare. I can not find one article where mom try to hire a hitman kill her husband because PPD. Not buying it.

WHERE KYRON?

Mylou
07-09-2010, 11:04 AM
bbm

Frankly, I'm taking what Kaine says with a HUGE grain of salt.

I agree, I was beginning to fall for that, but he doesn't speak for her in anything else, why speak about this now.
I'll wait to hear what Terri has to say when she is ready to talk.

Jersey*Girl
07-09-2010, 11:04 AM
This is seriously messed up. IDK what else to say.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/08/kaine-horman-kyrons-stepmom-suffered-post-partum-depression/

“As far as I’m concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone — and then she could have been hiding it at that point,” Kaine Horman said.

He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.
“It wasn’t anything that was overly violent in nature,” Horman said. “It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.”

Horman said he’s not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it.

How does one hide "erratic mood swings"? As a female who has experienced the wonderful effects of PMS over the years and now the joys of peri-menopause, I will be the first to testify (and my family members will agree lol) that mood swings are not something that can simply be hidden. We're sometimes at the mercy of our endocrine systems, even when we're completely healthy.

And I agree with others who have said if he was "supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period" why didn't he know what medication she was prescribed? IMO, part of watching someone closely who is ill is making sure they take their medication so that they get well.

This stinks. I need to open a few windows to let some air in.

FYI - I, myself, went through this & my husband was semi-clueless. It's so very common, more so than any of us would care to guess. After my 8 y/o was born, I was crying every single day. My dr put me on Celexa. I took Celexa for almost 9 months, around 6 months is when it was advised I could start tapering off...my dosage was lowered. Instead of taking it twice a day, I could only take it once a day. Then, around the last month, it was lowered from I think somewhere around 5 mg to 2 or 3 mg, which I took once a day. I don't even remember the mg & I'm the one that was taking it, lol. I'm informing all this bc shortly after I went off this anti-depressant, my sister in law had a miscarriage, a baby that was completely alive up until her 9th month of gestation & her baby died during childbirth. She was extremely depressed. My husband told her, plus my mil, fil, & bro in law that I took Xanax. I've never in my life taken Xanax! He, in his mind, assosciated Xanax with being depressed so assumed that was the med I took. I was on Celexa, which is one of the most mild Rx.

Being that Kaine appears so precise, so in control, may not be bc he's a control freak...it may be bc he's intelligent, analytical, anal about things being a certain way due to the margin of error that can be nonexistent in his level of his career. Maybe he said he didn't know what kind of meds she was prescribed bc he didn;t wanna throw something out there that could end up not being the actual one she was on - hence, he didn't wanna make a mistake by throwing out erroneous info to the public...that woudl be misleading. My husband, on the other hand, would have thrown out Xanax & the public would be devouring all that info...even though that wouldn't have been the correct Rx. Kaine seems like he wants his son found & supplying erroneous info only throws off that search.

Just my opinion, only giving a different way of looking at it.

:blowkiss:

debs
07-09-2010, 11:05 AM
In this video, KH and DY say that TH changed after Kyron went missing. What would be the reason for lying? What do you think?

http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/07/kyron_hormans_parents_share_de.html

As I stated elsewhere, the change could be attributed with having information of someone's dastardly deed and the overwhelming need to protect that someone. Lying isn't necessarily indicative of guilt; it could be attributed also to guilty knowledge. Right or wrong, sometimes people choose to protect someone they love when someone else they've loved has come to harm.

As far as theories go, that is.

Calliope
07-09-2010, 11:06 AM
In this video, KH and DY say that TH changed after Kyron went missing. What would be the reason for lying? What do you think?

http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/07/kyron_hormans_parents_share_de.html

I have no idea ... I truly don't know what to make of any of these people anymore. Seriously.

They don't elaborate. If I were in her shoes, and even if totally and completely innocent regarding his disappearance, I'd certainly change. I'd feel guilty, paranoid, second-guess myself, wondering 'if only'.

Poor little Kyron. I just pray in the midst of all this drama someone is still out there searching for him.

RubyRed
07-09-2010, 11:06 AM
Maybe instead of Kaine saying it is none of our da#n business what meds she was taking, he tried to be more polite and say he didn't know what they were.

Something tells me that had he told us what she was taking he would have been criticized for that.

Jersey*Girl
07-09-2010, 11:09 AM
I really don't mind if KH is giving TH what she needs for a defense.

If it makes her feel safer to open up about what happened to Kyron, I am all for it. The focus right now should be on finding Kyron.

There is all the time in the world to start assigning blame after he is home and safe....

I agree.

Calliope
07-09-2010, 11:09 AM
Maybe instead of Kaine saying it is none of our da#n business what meds she was taking, he tried to be more polite and say he didn't know what they were.

Something tells me that had he told us what she was taking he would have been criticized for that.

Except he hasn't to this point had a problem saying 'no comment' (or variations thereof).

I'm just so frustrated with every one of 'em.

Emma Peel
07-09-2010, 11:18 AM
I just get the feeling they are throwing everything out on the table so Terri's counsel can pick a strategy. They are willing to give her a PPD excuse if she'll only come forward with Kyron. If not, we've got motive and intent on the table for both crimes, and in the case of the death of Kyron - it could be a death penalty qualified case against Terri.

That's my take on all these revelations. Add to that my feeling that there's more family secrets to be coming out soon.

Strategy of the week: Lay out the options for Terri, and pressure, pressure, pressure.

JMHO

RubyRed
07-09-2010, 11:19 AM
Except he hasn't to this point had a problem saying 'no comment' (or variations thereof).

I'm just so frustrated with every one of 'em.

I am thinking if things were so bad, why on earth didn't he talk to DY about her taking Kyron. I heard in one interview that she was now finding things out. I wonder if these are some of the things. What a mess.

cypress
07-09-2010, 11:19 AM
In this video, KH and DY say that TH changed after Kyron went missing. What would be the reason for lying? What do you think?

http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/07/kyron_hormans_parents_share_de.html

Well, if it's true that DY was accusing and/or suspicious of TH from the beginning, then it would make sense that Terri changed. Guilty or innocent, if she's being accused by those in her inner circle, either directly or indirectly of abducting and/or harming the boy she helped successfully raise from infancy, I'd say she'd have some sort of reaction.

It's also possible, if she had PPD, that Kyron's disappearance could trigger it, IMHO.

twzzlrgirl
07-09-2010, 11:21 AM
I'm interested in the part of the interview where DY says that TH has been lying for the last 7 years that she's known her.

What makes her say something so broad? Did she gradually realize this about Terri, or is it a "hindsight" revelation because things are becoming more clear in her mind about Terri's behavior.

And, if this is the case, PPD would not be the cause of odd/deceiving behavior for all that time.

tlcya
07-09-2010, 11:22 AM
I find it interesting that the topic of PPD whihc has come up on the threads here from day one has taken a month to be speculated about by reporters, family members, including the husband who lived with her. I feel it may be Kaine's way of giving Terri an out.

I am on the fence about what happened to Kyron and who is responsible but it is patently clear at this point in the investigation that LE, Kaine an Desiree all feel pretty strongly that she may be involved. Given that is their belief, perhaps this is a bone being thrown Terri. The old, if you are sick maybe that is a mitigating factor.

Also I found it interesting that in recent pressers (post RO/divorce filing) that Kaine seems to be playing good cop - still humanizing Terri, talkiing about their marriage, possible PPD, while Desiree appears to be taking the role more of "bad cop" making statements that she immediately suspected Terri, had a feeling, and repeatedly urging Terri to cooperate.

As stated in another presser "everything" Kaine and Desiree are doing is calulated toward resolving finally where is Kyron.

Trident
07-09-2010, 11:23 AM
I have no idea ... I truly don't know what to make of any of these people anymore. Seriously.

They don't elaborate. If I were in her shoes, and even if totally and completely innocent regarding his disappearance, I'd certainly change. I'd feel guilty, paranoid, second-guess myself, wondering 'if only'.

Poor little Kyron. I just pray in the midst of all this drama someone is still out there searching for him.

I'm sure they ALL changed after Kyron went missing, not just TH. If they didn't, I would think there was something wrong with them ALL.

My opinion only

Chili Fries
07-09-2010, 11:24 AM
I can tell you from personal experience that PPD/PPP can be hidden. I was severely PPD after having my first daughter. I put on a happy face and looked like a doting new mother on the outside. But on the inside, I was completely suicidal and homicidal. I was eventually diagnosed with severe PTSD and PPD bordering on PPP after I tried to hurt my baby. Fortunately, I had a brief moment of clarity and called my husband to tell him he needed to come home from work, that something really bad had happened. He took me to get help. Part of my treatment plan was that I was not allowed to be left alone with the baby for 6 months or until my care providers signed off on it. Over the next 6 months, I gradually got better and became fairly functional for the most part. But diagnostically, I still had PPD for about 18 months.

My guess is that TH has/had PPD/PPP and started this whole plan when she was in the worst of her PPD/PPP. The PPD/PPP may have gotten better to the point where she was functional and those around her thought she was doing well, but she had already gottent he ball rolling on this grand plan. Or perhaps the people she has assiciated herself with weren't letting her off the hook. Perhaps she had made a deal with a hitman, and when they started threatening her to come up with the money, she gave them Kyron or sold him to pay the hitman.

Thanks for sharing, it's good to read firsthand experience. What a rough thing to go through.

Calliope
07-09-2010, 11:25 AM
I am thinking if things were so bad, why on earth didn't he talk to DY about her taking Kyron. I heard in one interview that she was now finding things out. I wonder if these are some of the things. What a mess.

That's another thing... why not allow Kyron to live with his mom?

beeshell
07-09-2010, 11:27 AM
[QUOTE=
Also brings up the question....if she was still on meds, or re-instated on meds after kyron went missing, did that affect her poly?

They would have asked her that as they started the polygraph. They interview you fairly thoroughly about your mental state, any medications being taken, etc.

YellowSubmarine
07-09-2010, 11:30 AM
I just posted this in the thread about K being with TH that morning - posters are speculating whether TH would harm Kyron with the baby there - thought I'd bring it here:


This reminds me of a case a few/several years ago. Can't remember where. A young mother took her 3 & 6 y/o boys for a car ride. Stopped in a field and left with the 6 y/o - he never came back. Mom tried to say he ran away or was kidnapped and it was the 3 y/o who told LE "I woke up and saw mommy carrying him away and mommy came back without him".

It's sad, but it happens.

After being analyzed, Phd's decided she had suffered from severe PPD/PPP with the 2nd one, rendering her with no attachment to him. She felt attachment with the older one, giving her the ability to "save him" from a horrible life. The PPD kept her from feeling the need to do so with the baby. Lucky for the baby, I guess -- so very, very sad.

SoCalSleuth
07-09-2010, 11:30 AM
Wow, so much to comment on. I believe Kaine--the diagnosis is easily confirmed by her doctor & why would he make it up. I don't think he was being contradictory when he stated that it lasted over a year and she was okay after 6 months. My guess is that she wasn't diagnosed until 6 months after --and then he was told to watch her for six months and then she seemed okay. This diagnosis would explain everything, although it doesn't bode well for Kyron. My guess is they have the OK from LE to get this out there so Terri's lawyer will know there is mitigation. I don't think Kaine has Asperger's--he looks people in the face when talking with them and that's one thing Asperger sufferers cannot do.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 11:31 AM
This may have been discussed but maybe Kaine is sending a message to Terri, kind of like I understand that you had problems and it wasn't your fault? Maybe to let her guard down and be able to admit what happened?

Maybe, huh? I'm sure he and Kyron's Mother would love to know where their son is if in fact she has knowledge.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 11:34 AM
Wow, so much to comment on. I believe Kaine--the diagnosis is easily confirmed by her doctor & why would he make it up. I don't think he was being contradictory when he stated that it lasted over a year and she was okay after 6 months. My guess is that she wasn't diagnosed until 6 months after --and then he was told to watch her for six months and then she seemed okay. This diagnosis would explain everything, although it doesn't bode well for Kyron. My guess is they have the OK from LE to get this out there so Terri's lawyer will know there is mitigation. I don't think Kaine has Asperger's--he looks people in the face when talking with them and that's one thing Asperger sufferers cannot do.

bolding mine>

I don't think he does either. The work he does can do that to ya (LOL) and the man had lost his only son.

mom_of_five
07-09-2010, 11:35 AM
Eyes - since you're our resident pharmacist, can you tell me if SSRIs are often prescribed for TX of PPD? TIA!

As someone who suffered with (and was treated for) PPD, the answer is yes.

YellowSubmarine
07-09-2010, 11:36 AM
I am thinking if things were so bad, why on earth didn't he talk to DY about her taking Kyron. I heard in one interview that she was now finding things out. I wonder if these are some of the things. What a mess.


My guess is that he just didn't understand the disease and/or the seriousness of it. Just like I wouldn't if someone in my life had it, since I've never experienced it. Plus, her doctor may have been one of those who discredited or downplayed it to Kaine. Not to mention it's seems a little tabboo, ya know? A man having to admit his wife may not love their baby? It's a tough, tough subject.

raeann
07-09-2010, 11:37 AM
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but it is quite interesting and makes it clear that LE is NOT orchestrating these new finger pointing sessions:

There will be no comment from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office regarding the information reported during the Horman/Young July 8, 2010 press conferences. The information released in during these conferences did NOT come from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office. This is an ongoing investigation.

http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1276&alert=1

Calliope
07-09-2010, 11:37 AM
Wow, so much to comment on. I believe Kaine--the diagnosis is easily confirmed by her doctor & why would he make it up. I don't think he was being contradictory when he stated that it lasted over a year and she was okay after 6 months. My guess is that she wasn't diagnosed until 6 months after --and then he was told to watch her for six months and then she seemed okay. This diagnosis would explain everything, although it doesn't bode well for Kyron. My guess is they have the OK from LE to get this out there so Terri's lawyer will know there is mitigation. I don't think Kaine has Asperger's--he looks people in the face when talking with them and that's one thing Asperger sufferers cannot do.

bbm

I have no idea if Kaine has asperger's or not, but that's not necessarily true. Maybe for many, but not all.

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 11:37 AM
PPD is a very normal thing to have.That is very normal after having a baby.I don't think she had PPD when Kyron came up missing.It was probably over by 18 months.I strongly feel any fighting they had was probably very mutual and nothing to do with PPD.

Misfitdolly
07-09-2010, 11:41 AM
Just because Kaine does not know what meds his wife was on does not mean she was not on any.

My son has been taking the same daily medication for the past 3 years and my husband (who occasionally administers it) could not tell you the name of it - he just knows what it's for.

I agree, my husband knows I take meds for cholesterol and HTN but he would not be able to tell you what they are called. When our kids are on antibiotics or something he also wouldn't be able to tell you the name. Similarly, if he is put on a med himself he often doesn't pay attn to the name. I have asked him what the doc gave him before and had him answer "I don't know, it's for xxx but I don't know the name" so I have to check when he picks it up from the pharmacy.

CCup
07-09-2010, 11:41 AM
Why is he talking to the WW? I thought he banned them and they were not "team players"

raeann
07-09-2010, 11:41 AM
My guess is that he just didn't understand the disease and/or the seriousness of it. Just like I wouldn't if someone in my life had it, since I've never experienced it. Plus, her doctor may have been one of those who discredited or downplayed it to Kaine. Not to mention it's seems a little tabboo, ya know? A man having to admit his wife may not love their baby? It's a tough, tough subject.

FWIW....

PPD has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone LOVES THEIR BABY. There is no stigma involved in this diagnosis at all. Many here today have admitted to having this illness, and while I personally have no experience with the symptoms, I certainly would never assume that those posters who report having gone through this did not love their children to the fullest extent.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 11:42 AM
I'm not excusing anything Terri may have done because of these problems. She still has to be accountable for her actions. I just think that maybe Terri wasn't in control and wasn't able to get in control and had to listen to the voices that convince you to do something evil in order to protect your baby. God help her.

I hope it's okay to have snipped this for space. I'm very glad you and your child are okay. Whenever crimes like this one we're discussing happen there's stories similar to yours. That you hid it from everyone around you, even the closest to you. I believe more women suffer from this than not and never share their stories after the fact. I have always personally believed it's far more common than anyone imagines.

But few harm other people's children and hire hit men. (for sake of discussion meaning I'm not accusing her of any wrongdoing at this point just eluding to what her husband said in the RO).

believe09
07-09-2010, 11:42 AM
PPD and PPP are very different-Post Partum Depression is unlikely to cause her to harm Kyron 19 months after the birth of her child. Post Partum Psychosis is a viable defense, but certainly not 19 months after the birth of a child.

I think there is a lack of understanding regarding this...JMO. Intractable Depression is unlikely to cause her to plot to disappear her step son so sucessfully that he cannot be found by the FBI. Not buying it. Sorry.

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 11:46 AM
Why is he talking to the WW? I thought he banned them and they were not "team players"
I feel he needs to quit talking now.All of this really is starting to look like a severe smear on her.First nothing from them.Now all this?

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 11:50 AM
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but it is quite interesting and makes it clear that LE is NOT orchestrating these new finger pointing sessions:

There will be no comment from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office regarding the information reported during the Horman/Young July 8, 2010 press conferences. The information released in during these conferences did NOT come from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office. This is an ongoing investigation.

http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1276&alert=1
I am very relieved to see and read this.It gives me alot more respect for LE.Maybe it's time to put GAG orders on everyone now.It really has gone on way to far.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 11:52 AM
I agree, my husband knows I take meds for cholesterol and HTN but he would not be able to tell you what they are called. When our kids are on antibiotics or something he also wouldn't be able to tell you the name. Similarly, if he is put on a med himself he often doesn't pay attn to the name. I have asked him what the doc gave him before and had him answer "I don't know, it's for xxx but I don't know the name" so I have to check when he picks it up from the pharmacy.

I agree especially the generics for this and that. Those names are a mile long who can pronounce them if asked, I ask you? I can't verbalize them to my own doctors if they ask me what I'm taking; sheesh!

Forget what other adults in my household are 'on' at any given time for any given malidy. My hubby's been on two meds for decades. I couldn't spell them this minute if my life depended on it, yet I do love him dearly and we've been man and wife for nearly half a century. I'd hate to be accused of misconduct like Kaine is by some. Overnight the biological parents have become the brunt of criticism. It's just wrong in my opinion to blame them. I don't believe law enforcement thinks they harmed their own son for one minute.

I wonder if Kyron will ever be located? If she's deceptive on her polygraphs maybe she does know his whereabouts and if so shame on her. Is it possible that some people are just plain mean?

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 11:55 AM
I feel he needs to quit talking now.All of this really is starting to look like a severe smear on her.First nothing from them.Now all this?

What I want to know is who smeared the 7 year old little boy, Kyron?

Does anybody think bashing his Mother and Father is a good thing? I suppose some do so long as it takes the focus off the last adult entrusted with his care when he vanished to heaven knows where.

debs
07-09-2010, 11:55 AM
I'm interested in the part of the interview where DY says that TH has been lying for the last 7 years that she's known her.

What makes her say something so broad? Did she gradually realize this about Terri, or is it a "hindsight" revelation because things are becoming more clear in her mind about Terri's behavior.

And, if this is the case, PPD would not be the cause of odd/deceiving behavior for all that time.

If I were a speculating type of person, I'd speculate that Desiree found out that it wasn't a platonic relationship between her husband and Terri 7 and 1/2 years ago.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 12:00 PM
PPD and PPP are very different-Post Partum Depression is unlikely to cause her to harm Kyron 19 months after the birth of her child. Post Partum Psychosis is a viable defense, but certainly not 19 months after the birth of a child.

I think there is a lack of understanding regarding this...JMO. Intractable Depression is unlikely to cause her to plot to disappear her step son so sucessfully that he cannot be found by the FBI. Not buying it. Sorry.

Thank you. My sentiments exactly and that doesn't even include the hit man-hire-attempt-on-hubby listed in the restraining order.

darlin gal
07-09-2010, 12:01 PM
K & D on the CBS Early Show.


They are not denying someone else maybe involved. In fact they are hoping someone else is because that would mean Kyron is being taken care of.

K - Were not having money problems.
K to the ? "Were either of you having an affair?" - K - Not that I am aware of.

D says her first thought when she got the phone call that Kyron went missing from Terri - You better not have done anything to my son.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6661870n&tag=related;photovideo

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 12:01 PM
FWIW....

PPD has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone LOVES THEIR BABY. There is no stigma involved in this diagnosis at all. Many here today have admitted to having this illness, and while I personally have no experience with the symptoms, I certainly would never assume that those posters who report having gone through this did not love their children to the fullest extent.
I agree and PPD is usually over in about 6 months.I doubt she had it for a year.It's just from hormones from having a baby.Your hormones do get back to normal after a baby.PPD is usually for a short time after giving birth.I've had a few babies so I do know this.PPD is NOT a mental disorder.It's hormonal.

raeann
07-09-2010, 12:05 PM
What I want to know is who smeared the 7 year old little boy, Kyron?

Does anybody think bashing his Mother and Father is a good thing? I suppose some do so long as it takes the focus off the last adult entrusted with his care when he vanished to heaven knows where.

For me, I do not think bashing anyone will help with this case. HOWEVER, there were only two people in this world ultimately responsible for deciding who should care for Kyron. Both of them chose to willingly relegate that care to TH for many years. The adults "entrusted with his care" were his bio parents, who had dozens of choices available to them. If this is the choice they willingly made, then they do and MUST share responsibility if that person harmed this child.

jmo

RubyRed
07-09-2010, 12:07 PM
Kyron's parents told CNN that Terri Horman seemed to focus on herself and how she felt instead of focusing on finding Kyron.
"We were all charging ahead and doing everything we can to find our son … we had someone who was not willing to do that," Kaine Horman said.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24197226/detail.html

raeann
07-09-2010, 12:08 PM
I agree and PPD is usually over in about 6 months.I doubt she had it for a year.It's just from hormones from having a baby.Your hormones do get back to normal after a baby.PPD is usually for a short time after giving birth.I've had a few babies so I do know this.PPD is NOT a mental disorder.It's hormonal.

Just read on a Mayo clinic website that it often lasts for a full year, and will recur if not treated properly. I will go get the link and edit it in here, as it has a ton of relevant information. One thing that was repeatedly emphasized was family support and counseling in addition to medications.


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/postpartum-depression/DS00546

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 12:09 PM
What I want to know is who smeared the 7 year old little boy, Kyron?

Does anybody think bashing his Mother and Father is a good thing? I suppose some do so long as it takes the focus off the last adult entrusted with his care when he vanished to heaven knows where.
It's not right smear anyone and I am glad LE stated thier press conferences did not come from them.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 12:13 PM
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but it is quite interesting and makes it clear that LE is NOT orchestrating these new finger pointing sessions:

There will be no comment from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office regarding the information reported during the Horman/Young July 8, 2010 press conferences. The information released in during these conferences did NOT come from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office. This is an ongoing investigation.

http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1276&alert=1

Not surprising. It would be kinda silly for LE to hold a pressor to talk about somebody else's pressor.

LadyL
07-09-2010, 12:14 PM
It's disheartening to see comments insinuating that Desiree & Kaine could've/should've/would've done this, that or the other. There've been comments here & there casting aspertions on TH's parents as well (in other threads). If TH did something to Kyron, then it's her own fault and no one else's. If she didn't continue treatment or seek help and consequently hurt Kyron, then what is her excuse for not coming forward and telling the truth now? Why does the blame have to be splintered off? Yes, we can try to find answers as to why she might have been violent so that lessons can be learned for the future but I'm pretty sure Kaine & Desiree and even TH's parents (if she's guilty) will be blaming themselves plenty enough for years to come. I don't see how hurting them further is beneficial to anyone. MOO MOO MOO.

rosiebean
07-09-2010, 12:16 PM
I agree and PPD is usually over in about 6 months.I doubt she had it for a year.It's just from hormones from having a baby.Your hormones do get back to normal after a baby.PPD is usually for a short time after giving birth.I've had a few babies so I do know this.PPD is NOT a mental disorder.It's hormonal.
The Mayo Clinic, among others, disagree with some of your assesments (from http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/postpartum-depression/DS00546):

Many new moms experience the baby blues after childbirth, which commonly include mood swings and crying spells and fade quickly. But some new moms experience a more severe, long-lasting form of depression known as postpartum depression. Rarely, an extreme form of postpartum depression known as postpartum psychosis develops after childbirth.

There's no single cause for postpartum depression. Physical, emotional and lifestyle factors may all play a role.

With appropriate treatment, postpartum depression usually goes away within a few months. In some cases, postpartum depression lasts up to a year. It's important to continue treatment after you begin to feel better, however. Stopping treatment too early may only lead to a relapse.


I've had a few babies myself, and I had PPD, which can manifest up to a year after delivery. My case of PPD wasn't a short term thing that went away when my hormones balanced out, I can assure you.

tlcya
07-09-2010, 12:17 PM
What I want to know is who smeared the 7 year old little boy, Kyron?

Does anybody think bashing his Mother and Father is a good thing? I suppose some do so long as it takes the focus off the last adult entrusted with his care when he vanished to heaven knows where.

Your post seems to suggest that bashing Desiree and Kaine is not to be tolerated as it interferes with and removes focus from the justified smearing of Terri.

I hope I have misinterpreted you. IMO the smearing of anyone involved til we have an arrest is dangerous territory I for one want no part of.

SuziQ
07-09-2010, 12:18 PM
I'm not buying this carp. If she did this to Kyron, it wasn't some erratic emotional outburst or mood swing, but a carefully planned sneaky evil plot.
I think Kaine is trying to find solace in the fact his entire life with this woman wasn't some big lie, and he surely feels guilt over Kyron's disappearance. It's easier to blame something else, something outwardly, than believe the person you loved, married, and had kids with is a liar and capable of hurting you and your child. It's easier than believing you were that blind and foolish to not see it. Not saying Kaine was blind or foolish but just that HE probably feels this way, and now he needs an explanation for the unexplainable. It gives people peace of mind to be able to find a reason for the unreasonable.
But anyway....

IMO, women with PPD or PPP can be pretty elaborate with their plans.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 12:19 PM
Just read on a Mayo clinic website that it often lasts for a full year, and will recur if not treated properly. I will go get the link and edit it in here, as it has a ton of relevant information. One thing that was repeatedly emphasized was family support and counseling in addition to medications.


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/postpartum-depression/DS00546

If they never arrest her she won't need any defense.

chasing.halos
07-09-2010, 12:20 PM
I can say, from personal experience, that PPD is an ugly ugly thing if not treated properly. I certainly was not myself at all. Thankfully I was treated quickly and properly. Knowing that TMH suffered from this just gives a little insight into the possibility of erratic behavior, especially if she was not treated properly for it (we don't know this at this point though).

For anyone suffering from this or that has suffered from this, BIG HUGE HUGS TO YOU. :heart:

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 12:21 PM
Just read on a Mayo clinic website that it often lasts for a full year, and will recur if not treated properly. I will go get the link and edit it in here, as it has a ton of relevant information. One thing that was repeatedly emphasized was family support and counseling in addition to medications.


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/postpartum-depression/DS00546
I've had a few babies.Yes,I agree.It could go on for a year.But I doubt hers did.What I'm saying is she probably didn't have PPD at 18 months after her child was born.It's hormonal and PPD is after giving birth.Your hormones do go back to normal.Most of the time it does not recur.The hormones are associated with pregnany and giving birth.I feel any problems they had was probably very mutual and had nothing to do with PPD.

raeann
07-09-2010, 12:21 PM
Not surprising. It would be kinda silly for LE to hold a pressor to talk about somebody else's pressor.

This seems to be more in response to media requests for confirmation of the information from the family. LE made it clear that the information given out by the family was not being confirmed by them and did not come from them. Everyone is free to interpret that as they choose, I suppose.

The press conference reference was in a separate paragraph, not included with this statement. That indicates they have no impending plans to make any major moves on the case which need to be addressed in a pc.


jmo

human
07-09-2010, 12:22 PM
I, too believe that everyone wants Kyron back. All LE are not going to want to do anything that makes that not happen.

Whatever is happening is orchestrated. I do not believe that LE along with the FBI is going to let anything come out that they don't want to come out.

I think the media things are also orchestrated.

People want Kyron back.

Whatever it takes for that to happen is what they are doing.

raeann
07-09-2010, 12:25 PM
If they never arrest her she won't need any defense.

I am not offering the information as a defense for TH specifically, but to contradict the statement made that those with PPD do not love their children. To me, that was an incorrect implication and very hurtful to those posters here on WS that admitted that they had suffered from this problem.

jmo

LadyL
07-09-2010, 12:30 PM
(respectfully snipped)

Considering how detail-oriented he appears to be, in addition to your point, leads me to believe he's not telling the truth here. I'm sure her meds and docs were paid for by his insurance, too.

my husband has a psych degree and is incredibly anal and he still wouldn't be able to tell you what drugs I'm on - they're in my purse and he doesn't look at the bottles or anything and yes, I'm on his benefits

and worse, I can't even tell you the names b/c the clinical names are so long and the brand names change, depending on the pharmacy (sometimes they give generic stuff)

I know what they're for and that's about it - I recently had a medical for work & had to show the nurse the bottles cause I had no idea the names

and when she asked for dates of illnesses etc., I gave her loose estimates & said check with my doctor for documentation b/c I do not remember that stuff

just some personal experience that makes it easier for me to understand the dynamics of a spouse not necessarily knowing medical history

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 12:31 PM
The Mayo Clinic, among others, disagree with some of your assesments (from http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/postpartum-depression/DS00546):

Many new moms experience the baby blues after childbirth, which commonly include mood swings and crying spells and fade quickly. But some new moms experience a more severe, long-lasting form of depression known as postpartum depression. Rarely, an extreme form of postpartum depression known as postpartum psychosis develops after childbirth.

There's no single cause for postpartum depression. Physical, emotional and lifestyle factors may all play a role.

With appropriate treatment, postpartum depression usually goes away within a few months. In some cases, postpartum depression lasts up to a year. It's important to continue treatment after you begin to feel better, however. Stopping treatment too early may only lead to a relapse.


I've had a few babies myself, and I had PPD, which can manifest up to a year after delivery. My case of PPD wasn't a short term thing that went away when my hormones balanced out, I can assure you.
What I am trying to say is I honestly don't think she had severe or extreme PPD.Most of the time it does go away after giving birth.Her baby was 18 months old.It was probably over and he himself said it was not severe just mood swings.That's very normal.I have had 7 children.I've been here and done this.

jessunlil
07-09-2010, 12:31 PM
(SBM)

Forget what other adults in my household are 'on' at any given time for any given malidy. My hubby's been on two meds for decades. I couldn't spell them this minute if my life depended on it, yet I do love him dearly and we've been man and wife for nearly half a century. I'd hate to be accused of misconduct like Kaine is by some. Overnight the biological parents have become the brunt of criticism. It's just wrong in my opinion to blame them. I don't believe law enforcement thinks they harmed their own son for one minute.


I just wanted to back you up on this.
My husband took blood pressure & cholesterol meds for awhile & I could not tell you their names off the top of my head. I know that he tried a few different meds until they found the combo that worked for him & I'd probably recognize the med names from a list but I could not produce them on my own.

For me, the names just aren't particularly easy to remember because they don't give any indication of what they are, they're just a combination of letters that don't compute.
Hubby was on Aciphex for a little while & I have no problem remembering that one because the pronunciation made us laugh and because "aci" is like "acid" & it was used for acid reflux issues.

It's not that I didn't/don't care, it's that my brain needs to be able to reference things in that way. Maybe Kaine's is the same way.

RubyRed
07-09-2010, 12:31 PM
The message seems to be: "We have crucified you and burned you at the stake, now we are going to tell your private medical information to the world, BUT it is only because we want to give you a break".

I agree with the other posters who mentioned that he contradicted himself repeatedly. Three 'stories'...a year or so/ watch her for six months/ then up until a month or two ago.

jmo

Edited to add...DY better not be a nurse if she is going on national television shows and discussing someone else's medical condition and medication without their legal release to do so.

bbm

I haven't heard her say any such thing.

Jersey*Girl
07-09-2010, 12:32 PM
If I were a speculating type of person, I'd speculate that Desiree found out that it wasn't a platonic relationship between her husband and Terri 7 and 1/2 years ago.

completely agree

chasing.halos
07-09-2010, 12:32 PM
I am not offering the information as a defense for TH specifically, but to contradict the statement made that those with PPD do not love their children. To me, that was an incorrect implication and very hurtful to those posters here on WS that admitted that they had suffered from this problem.

jmo

TY. I think it just reiterates that a lot of people do not know about nor understand PPD (just a fact, not trying to be demeaning or anything). For me it was actually an intense worry that something would happen to my child. I would imagine terrible things happening, such as a car accident, and then envision what the aftermath would look like. Ugh, it was awful. So it affects people differently. I didn't want to ever let go of my baby because I had so much anxiety that something would happen to him. I would just sit and cry while holding him.

Just my experience.

DJ3569
07-09-2010, 12:33 PM
Does anyone know if she was breastfeeding? I would think if she was this also could have her hormones out of whack.

SuziQ
07-09-2010, 12:38 PM
IMO, Sometimes PPD and PPP can develope into something long term and seems to be hard to keep under control. TH may have been worse off than Kaine and the Docs realized.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 12:39 PM
I believe these press events with DY & KH are very much planned and orchestrated with direction from FBI or other LE experts. I believe they are well coached on what and what not to say. Under such circumstances, I believe they were instructed NOT to say the names of any medications at this time in the investigation. I believe that when this case comes to trial, IF TH is the one accused, specific medications will play a huge role in the evidence. But at this juncture, I think it will only be referred to in passing so as not to muddy the waters. Imagine if KH had identified a specific AD in the interviews as one TH was taking regularly. The pharmaceutical company would have the beginning of a PR nightmare, and countless people taking that Rx would perhaps worry about being 'like TH'. That may still happen, but we won't know yet until a trial. Right now we just need to FIND KYRON. And if KH's description of TH's PPD, without disclosing the specific med, helps accomplish that by affecting public opinion into being a bit more understanding of what might have led to this tragedy, I'm all for it.

Very insightful post, thanks. I agree with all you've said but I'd like to add that I think they might be trying to perhaps calm her into telling where she put Kyron if it's true she's involved in his disappearance. I sure wouldn't blame them for trying.

tlcya
07-09-2010, 12:39 PM
I suffered from PPD but not the can't bond, disengaged from my baby variety. I hated everyone else in the world tho. Even today, I cannot explain it. I just know I was moody to the point of hair trigger. One monet weeping inconsolably, the next raging and throwing things at my husbands (yep plural), followed by the most tender loving mother everyone in the world feelings.

It was frightening to have my own emotions be so far out of my own control.

Thankfully after a violent episode in which I physically went after hubby number two, I called the doc and they got me some meds.

By the time I was preggers with number three, I had doc put me on the meds DURING pregnancy so that there would not be that several weeks of getting the meds through my system after baby came.

If PPD IS a factor, and I am not saying it is, I wonder if Terri had the sort of PPD I had, hating Kaine, resenting Kyron suddenly when she had not expereinced such an emotion prior. I say this because when I went after my husband (post 2nd baby) I was eqaully enraged at my 14 year old son. To this day I cannot tell you why.

cluciano63
07-09-2010, 12:40 PM
Wow, this is a hot issue. And yet Kaine coming out with this only says to me that Terri had not been acting "normally" for some period since the baby was born and that she had been under a doctor's care. What I get most from this revelation is that it is less and less likely that Kyron is "being held someplace."

Also I do believe MCSO when they say that none of the information the family is now discussing is coming from them. I do not believe they have been orcehstrating the family's PC's. I think the dams broke for the parents and they are talking about anything they think might help explain, or help solve, this tragedy that has overtaken their lives.

twzzlrgirl
07-09-2010, 12:47 PM
TY. I think it just reiterates that a lot of people do not know about nor understand PPD (just a fact, not trying to be demeaning or anything). For me it was actually an intense worry that something would happen to my child. I would imagine terrible things happening, such as a car accident, and then envision what the aftermath would look like. Ugh, it was awful. So it affects people differently. I didn't want to ever let go of my baby because I had so much anxiety that something would happen to him. I would just sit and cry while holding him.

Just my experience.

Mine was the same way. I was terrified to leave our apartment, after my daughter was born, because I was afraid something would happen. Thank God my family/husband stepped in to help.

JMHO, TH may have had PPD, but I don't believe for a minute that it had something to do with Kyron's disappearance or hiring a hit man to kill Kaine (if these two things turn out to be true). I honestly believe it came down to her having the daughter she wanted, she wanted her own life back, and she decided to get rid of the two people who were keeping her from that. MOO, as usual ;)

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 12:48 PM
IMO, Sometimes PPD and PPP can develope into something long term and seems to be hard to keep under control. TH may have been worse off than Kaine and the Docs realized.

If she ever ends being brought to justice for perhaps harming Kyron I believe her lawyers will have a very difficult time selling to jurors how she found her way clear to hire a hitman for husband and work out at the gym regularly while in the throes of severe post partum depression for nearly two years and then ooops harmed somebody else's child while managing to never harm her own. Or any type depression for that matter. In an instance such as that the prosecution would be aptly armed. My personal opinion.

I know depression exists and postpartum, but it's beat like a dead horse at times also in my opinion.

seeking truth
07-09-2010, 12:49 PM
I feel he needs to quit talking now.All of this really is starting to look like a severe smear on her.First nothing from them.Now all this?Why would Kaine QUIT talking now? My gosh, he's just getting started. He wants to find his son. He knows who has the answers. So, he is going to use any (legal) method at his disposal to do so. Wouldn't most desperate, dedicated, loving parents do anything they could to encourage the person who they believe has information about their missing child to be HONEST?

The "SMEARING" (Suzanne's term) seems light, and an unimportant factor right now, if that is even the correct term for what Desiree and Kaine are doing. Kaine's giving Terri an "out" with the revelation that she suffered from PPD and it is actually a kind thing to do. Desiree has every right to be honest about her beliefs and feeling about
Terri. She has every right to speak freely and openly. Desiree quite possibly sees this as one of her duties Kyron; to state that she knows Terri to be a liar, that she is angry, and, most importantly, that she knows in her gut that this woman is responsible for whatever happened to her son.

MY OPINIONS

twzzlrgirl
07-09-2010, 12:53 PM
Why would Kaine QUIT talking now? My gosh, he's just getting started. He wants to find his son. He knows who has the answers. So, he is going to use any (legal) method at his disposal to do so. Wouldn't most desperate, dedicated, loving parents do anything they could to encourage the person who they believe has information about their missing child to be HONEST?

The "SMEARING" (Suzanne's term) seems light, and an unimportant factor right now, if that is even the correct term for what Desiree and Kaine are doing. Kaine's giving Terri an "out" with the revelation that she suffered from PPD and it is actually a kind thing to do. Desiree has every right to be honest about her beliefs and feeling about
Terri. She has every right to speak freely and openly. Desiree quite possibly sees this as one of her duties Kyron; to state that she knows Terri to be a liar, that she is angry, and, most importantly, that she knows in her gut that this woman is responsible for whatever happened to her son.

MY OPINIONS



If I thought my husband had my child I would air every piece of dirty laundry I had on him (one little bomb a day) until he was so smeared his life in prison would be pleasant in comparison.

Ha -- the mama bear in me coming out. Seriously, I would make life a living HELL for anyone I thought had or had done something to my child.

azwriter
07-09-2010, 12:54 PM
I have to admit something. I had my boy in 1985. The AIDS epidemic was in full blown and not a lot was known about it and it was always fatal. I had lived in Los Angeles and dated a man I found out later was bi. After that I got married and pregnant. With all the news about AIDS coming out I became obsessed that I had it and would give it to my baby. I don't even know if there was a test yet for it. After he was born I was terrified that because of my bad choices my baby was going to suffer. I honestly thought I had gotten it from being with a bi man and passed it to my son. I started making plans to kill myself and the baby. I was going to park in the garage and turn the car on. I told no one, I was so ashamed. I felt like I was a bad person and didn't deserve such a wonderful baby and because of me he was going to suffer and die. This went on for a while before I could finally talk to my doctor about it. He assured me that chances of me having contracted the virus was very low even though I had unprotected sex. He educated me about the disease and why he was sure I didn't have it. I was afraid he would lock me up I was so fearful.
The bottom line is that after a while and due to educating myself I eventually stopped being obsesses and fearful. I don't remember if he had given medication, he might have. The point is my thinking was out of control irrational and because of my shame I kept it hiden. Thank God I never carried out my plans but I loved my baby too much. I was just fearful that I had condemned him to a terrible disease and we would both die. It seemed perfectly rational at the time. It did pass once I was aware that I had no signs and I allowed reality to come into the picture.
The point I am trying to make is how difficult PPD is. I think I may have even passed into PPP because my thinking was so irrational. I could have hurt myself and my baby if I didn't get help. It was only a few weeks thank God but I can understand how that can affect an otherwise normal person. Looking back I couldn't believe how consumed with fear I was over something that was very unlikely to happen.
If Terri had PPD or worse PPP I can see her becoming fixated on Kyron and maybe she felt there was something evil about him that she had to eliminate. I have heard other woman say they killed their baby because they were sure it was possessed by the devil or would go to hell. Terri didn't focus on her own child though but she may have focused on Kyron and a real threat to her baby. She might have convinced herself that he was dangerous and would hurt her baby if she didn't do something. I can see how it twists you mind and make you believe straight out lies and feel like you are the only one to fix this. My experience happened a few weeks after my baby was born but I can see how it could continue on, especially if she were feeding into it.
I am thinking Kaine is handing Terri a defense right on a silver platter for whatever reason. He may feel guilty for not doing more or helping more of leaving with the kids. It sounds like he is a lot of pain right now.
I'm not excusing anything Terri may have done because of these problems. She still has to be accountable for her actions. I just think that maybe Terri wasn't in control and wasn't able to get in control and had to listen to the voices that convince you to do something evil in order to protect your baby. God help her.

Oh Dairy Girl, I'm so sorry you went through all that torture and misunderstanding. It must have been horrible. You're very brave to have shared your experience here. I sincerely hope life is free of stress and worry for you now.
azwriter

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 12:55 PM
Why would Kaine QUIT talking now? My gosh, he's just getting started. He wants to find his son. He knows who has the answers. So, he is going to use any (legal) method at his disposal to do so. Wouldn't most desperate, dedicated, loving parents do anything they could to encourage the person who they believe has information about their missing child to be HONEST?

The "SMEARING" (Suzanne's term) seems light, and an unimportant factor right now, if that is even the correct term for what Desiree and Kaine are doing. Kaine's giving Terri an "out" with the revelation that she suffered from PPD and it is actually a kind thing to do. Desiree has every right to be honest about her beliefs and feeling about
Terri. She has every right to speak freely and openly. Desiree quite possibly sees this as one of her duties Kyron; to state that she knows Terri to be a liar, that she is angry, and, most importantly, that she knows in her gut that this woman is responsible for whatever happened to her son.

MY OPINIONS


It's gone on way too far and LE said it did not come from them.I think too much focus is on all this and it's really not helping to find Kyron at all.It's sad.The focus needs to stay on Kyron and it's not.It's time for all this to stop.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 12:58 PM
Your post seems to suggest that bashing Desiree and Kaine is not to be tolerated as it interferes with and removes focus from the justified smearing of Terri.

I hope I have misinterpreted you. IMO the smearing of anyone involved til we have an arrest is dangerous territory I for one want no part of.

The stepmother was the last adult with Kyron. Known fact of this case call it what you will.

sherbetjello
07-09-2010, 01:03 PM
Did she go off her medication? How terrible for her...for everyone. moo

Is there a [B]specific medication for PPD?

I didn't think there was, I thought they just gave out combo medications.

tlcya
07-09-2010, 01:03 PM
The stepmother was the last adult with Kyron. Known fact of this case call it what you will.

Thank you, I shall.

ETA I do not at all dispute that Terri Horman was the last known adulkt to be seen with Kyron. Nor do I dispute that LE should be looking at her very hard, which they are. What I do wholeheartedly disupte is my right to smear ANYONE til I know they are indeed deserving of it. My barometer for that is an arrest warrant. you barometer may differ, and that is fine.

We shall agree to disagree then.

SuziQ
07-09-2010, 01:03 PM
If she ever ends being brought to justice for perhaps harming Kyron I believe her lawyers will have a very difficult time selling to jurors how she found her way clear to hire a hitman for husband and work out at the gym regularly while in the throes of severe post partum depression for nearly two years and then ooops harmed somebody else's child while managing to never harm her own. Or any type depression for that matter. In an instance such as that the prosecution would be aptly armed. My personal opinion.

I know depression exists and postpartum, but it's beat like a dead horse at times also in my opinion.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of developing a personality disorder or BI-polar disease. And I wasn't meaning as a legal defense cause I don't see one here. Other than mitigating factors at sentencing, the only legal defense for mental illness is insanity and alot of what you stated above means TH was not insane.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 01:04 PM
What I am trying to say is I honestly don't think she had severe or extreme PPD.Most of the time it does go away after giving birth.Her baby was 18 months old.It was probably over and he himself said it was not severe just mood swings.That's very normal.I have had 7 children.I've been here and done this.

Ms Suzanne - post partum depression is NOT the baby blues! Like other medical illnesses, there seems to be a continuum of severity.

PPD is not something people make up. It involves Dr. visits, medication, therapy, social support. Women with PPD often are put on hormones to help even out the underlying hormonal problem along with antidepressants, and sometimes, if the PPD has gone into postpartum psychosis, you will find an antipsychotic medication.

The diagnosis can be verified with the Dr. and medication purchased will show up on insurance bills and be on the profile at the pharmacy.

I have seen women on anti-D for months who begin to feel better, go off their medications, and relapse only to come back with a psychotic like depression. It can last for a long time, especially if a woman is taken off her meds too early.

PPD and PPP are serious illnesses that can lead a mom to hurt her baby/child. The medications are serious and have many side effects - not something anyone would want to make up.

For anyone questioning the severity PPD and PPP can take please google - Andrea Yates, woman from Texas who murdered her babies due to PPP. It's a chilling story. moo

human
07-09-2010, 01:09 PM
Why wouldn't the FBI have a profiler or several on this case? Why wouldn't a profiler direct what is said by anyone on this case?

Desiree said in the beginning that they thought the missing child wouldn't be gone so long.

I think they thought right away that Terri had done something to make them upset. some kind of childish "get back at everyone" kind of thing.

Maybe she has done other kinds of things, such as forgetting to pack something and then Desi would have to go out and buy it, such as a favorite toy.

I think a profiler is leading them down the path on how to appeal to Terri.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 01:12 PM
Is there a specific medication for PPD?

I didn't think there was, I thought they just gave out combo medications.

A mom is usually put on an antidepressant, the specific one is determined if she has had successful treatment for depression in a prior time of life. Also if mom is breast feeding an antidepressant will be picked out that has the least side effects for the baby. Often an SSRI is prescribed, especially to non-breast feeding moms.

Next the underlying hormonal balance may be treated - estrogens may be prescribed and/or an estrogen-progesterone med.

IF the postpartum depression should go into a postpartum psychosis, an antipsychotic medication is given.

One or all three will be prescribed. Compliance is necessary and with the side effect profile, compliance can sometimes be difficult.

This is NOT an illness anybody would make up. Psychosis is a break with reality, can be filled with hearing voices, noises, seeing visions, delusions, and can result in harm to self and/or baby. Homicidal and suicidal ideation is serious and needs to be monitored closely.

twzzlrgirl
07-09-2010, 01:15 PM
I, for one, was never the same after my daughter was born. Whatever went "out of whack" with my hormones, stayed that way. I have been on anti-depressants and was diagnosed with mild bipolar, and have been on meds ever since. She is now 14 years old. I tried getting of the meds two years ago, and seriously wanted to die. It was the scariest 4 months of my life. Once I was back on, I was fine. And I was never on any kind of medication before giving birth.

Just my nightmarish experience to add into the mix. Of course, it may or may not be relevant to this situation at all.....

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 01:15 PM
Ms Suzanne - post partum depression is NOT the baby blues! Like other medical illnesses, there seems to be a continuum of severity.

PPD is not something people make up. It involves Dr. visits, medication, therapy, social support. Women with PPD often are put on hormones to help even out the underlying hormonal problem along with antidepressants, and sometimes, if the PPD has gone into postpartum psychosis, you will find an antipsychotic medication.

The diagnosis can be verified with the Dr. and medication purchased will show up on insurance bills and be on the profile at the pharmacy.

I have seen women on anti-D for months who begin to feel better, go off their medications, and relapse only to come back with a psychotic like depression. It can last for a long time, especially if a woman is taken off her meds too early.

PPD and PPP are serious illnesses that can lead a mom to hurt her baby/child. The medications are serious and have many side effects - not something anyone would want to make up.

For anyone questioning the severity PPD and PPP can take please google - Andrea Yates, woman from Texas who murdered her babies due to PPP. It's a chilling story. moo
Thank you.I know about all this.I've been through it and I never wanted to kill my baby or ever hurt my children.It appears from the article he said her mood swings were not bad and by the time Kyron came up missing she was over it.It was just hormonal.Maybe they should have not even done an article on it.Again I feel any problems they had were probably very mutual and it did not have anything to do with PPD.I feel way too much focus is on all this and all these things being said when it should be on Kyron.The focus is not on Kyron any more and it needs to be.

WhyaDuck?
07-09-2010, 01:21 PM
I wonder why people seem so hung up on this idea that this was a big intricate plan. Isn't it just as plausible that, if TH did it, she just killed him in a fit of anger? Perhaps something happened where she had to take him out the vehicle, and things flew out of control, IDK.

I'm not saying from PPD, but this is the only thread that seemed to fit at the moment.

Is it just the landscaper story? Because, otherwise, I don't think we have enough knowledge of TH to know if she really is as conniving as people paint her, KWIM?

I mean, killing in anger is just as bad... I just don't know why it has to be some Master Plan.

MOO.

seeking truth
07-09-2010, 01:22 PM
I agree and PPD is usually over in about 6 months.I doubt she had it for a year.It's just from hormones from having a baby.Your hormones do get back to normal after a baby.PPD is usually for a short time after giving birth.I've had a few babies so I do know this.PPD is NOT a mental disorder.It's hormonal.Of course PPD is mental disorder, Ms. Suzanne. Sure, hormones are involved. Brain chemistry is involved. Emotional well-being is affected.

Anti-depressants (and sometimes anti-psychotics, along with other medications that treat mood disorders) are used in the treatment of this serious illness. Where in the world is the literature pointing at PPD as being only a short term illness? Thankfully, for you, it sounds as though it did not last long. For others, it does.

Over in six months? No mental illness has a cut-off date.

Why are you doubting that Terri could have suffered with PPD for a year, or even more? For that matter, what does it really matter at this point? When the answers come as to what happened to Kyron, it may play into Terri's defense, but at this point we have a distraught father sharing intimate details for very pointed reasons. One being, I believe, to let Terri know that there might be some understanding coming her way, not only from Kaine, but from the public as well.

I don't mean to sound confrontational, but I am having a really difficult time with all this doubt being thrown on the veracity of Kaine and Desiree. And the doubting that LE is supportive of these two is insulting to some of us; based on LE's encouragement for Kaine to protect Baby K and himself from this obvious person of interest. Just reading the Restraining Order, we know that they are serious about Terri being a person if interest, whether they want to state that to us or not. We can see that the DA and the judge take this very seriously. It so clear, and has been stated, that Desiree and Kaine are fully cooperating with LE. They all want to find the truth and bring Kyron home; whatever "bringing Kyron home" truly means.

LE can be less than truthful with the public in order to maintain the integrity of their investigation. I doubt they are being less than truthful with Kaine, Desiree, and her husband, Tony. Any statements they make to us, the public, need to be taken with a grain of salt, as what is most important to them, and hopefully to all of us, is to find a way to make this woman talk.

My thoughts on this. My opinions.

PortlandMama
07-09-2010, 01:23 PM
So which is it? She was fine after 6 months, 12 months or 17 months?


Respectfully snipped.

I haven't had time to read to the end of the thread yet, so my apologies if this has already been addressed. I wonder if the discrepancy could be the result of when she was finally diagnosed with PPD. Say, for example, her behavior changed with the birth of the baby (so they can backdate to birth of baby after diagnosis), she was officially diagnosed with PPD and treatment began at 8 to 10 months out, she was observed by KH (the requisite six months of close observation while under medication) until 14 to 16 months out, and then appeared OK until the disappearance of Kyron at 18 months out. Not saying that's what happened, but it would make the dates fit.

cluciano63
07-09-2010, 01:25 PM
I wonder why people seem so hung up on this idea that this was a big intricate plan. Isn't it just as plausible that, if TH did it, she just killed him in a fit of anger? Perhaps something happened where she had to take him out the vehicle, and things flew out of control, IDK.

I'm not saying from PPD, but this is the only thread that seemed to fit at the moment.

Is it just the landscaper story? Because, otherwise, I don't think we have enough knowledge of TH to know if she really is as conniving as people paint her, KWIM?

I mean, killing in anger is just as bad... I just don't know why it has to be some Master Plan.

MOO.

I wrote this same thing yesterday, someplace...I don't see Terri as some mastermind who committed the perfect crime. She probably is stunned that she has not been arrested and that Kyron has not been found. I think the most elaborate part of whatever happened might be something like driving around a while to try to spread out her cell pings, if that. I think she blew, hurt Kyron and left his body someplace and then spent some time driving aorund before she dared return home. So she wouldn't really have an alibi if this is the case. But I am not buying into some plot so clever and diabolical that not even the FBI can crack the case. I think they just can't find Kyron's body.

WhyaDuck?
07-09-2010, 01:28 PM
I wrote this same thing yesterday, someplace...I don't see Terri as some mastermind who committed the perfect crime. She probably is stunned that she has not been arrested and that Kyron has not been found. I think the most elaborate part of whatever happened might be something like driving around a while to try to spread out her cell pings, if that. I think she blew, hurt Kyron and left his body someplace and then spent some time driving aorund before she dared return home. So she wouldn't really have an alibi if this is the case. But I am not buying into some plot so clever and diabolical that not even the FBI can crack the case. I think they just can't find Kyron's body.

The threads are starting to fly out of control for me, so I must have missed your post. So accept this in lieu of a Thank You on that post, wherever it is. :)

I think we all tend to go "conniving b*tch" very fast when considering a woman guilty. Especially a stepmom. It's like men are perceived to act on impulse, but women are schemers. Very odd. MOO.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 01:33 PM
Thank you.I know about all this.I've been through it and I never wanted to kill my baby or ever hurt my children.It appears from the article he said her mood swings were not bad and by the time Kyron came up missing she was over it.It was just hormonal.Maybe they should have not even done an article on it.Again I feel any problems they had were probably very mutual and it did not have anything to do with PPD.I feel way too much focus is on all this and all these things being said when it should be on Kyron.The focus is not on Kyron any more and it needs to be.

Important to remember that Kaine is giving the evaluation of his wife's PPD. We have no idea if what he said is accurate. His description of 'mood swings' might indicate an agitated depression. We don't know if he was in contact with her doctor or if he is just guessing. Sometimes mood swings in a depression can be even more serious.

As for you never wanting to hurt/kill your baby - that's great, I"m glad for you! However there are woman who do - and that needs to be taken seriously. Homicidal and suicidal ideation can be serious with PPD/PPP.

We have no idea if Terri's PPD resulted in any harm to Kyron. Until we know the severity of her illness, the most we can do is consider it a possibility and that alone, might help find Kyron. moo

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 01:33 PM
Of course PPD is mental disorder, Ms. Suzanne. Sure, hormones are involved. Brain chemistry is involved. Emotional well-being is affected.

Anti-depressants (and sometimes anti-psychotics, along with other medications that treat mood disorders) are used in the treatment of this serious illness. Where in the world is the literature pointing at PPD as being only a short term illness? Thankfully, for you, it sounds as though it did not last long. For others, it does.

Over in six months? No mental illness has a cut-off date.

Why are you doubting that Terri could have suffered with PPD for a year, or even more? For that matter, what does it really matter at this point? When the answers come as to what happened to Kyron, it may play into Terri's defense, but at this point we have a distraught father sharing intimate details for very pointed reasons. One being, I believe, to let Terri know that there might be some understanding coming her way, not only from Kaine, but from the public as well.

I don't mean to sound confrontational, but I am having a really difficult time with all this doubt being thrown on the veracity of Kaine and Desiree. And the doubting that LE is supportive of these two is insulting to some of us; based on LE's encouragement for Kaine to protect Baby K and himself from this obvious person of interest. Just reading the Restraining Order, we know that they are serious about Terri being a person if interest, whether they want to state that to us or not. We can see that the DA and the judge take this very seriously. It so clear, and has been stated, that Desiree and Kaine are fully cooperating with LE. They all want to find the truth and bring Kyron home; whatever "bringing Kyron home" truly means.

LE can be less than truthful with the public in order to maintain the integrity of their investigation. I doubt they are being less than truthful with Kaine, Desiree, and her husband, Tony. Any statements they make to us, the public, need to be taken with a grain of salt, as what is most important to them, and hopefully to all of us, is to find a way to make this woman talk.

My thoughts on this. My opinions.

I will say this and then we can drop it and move on please.It is hormonal from having a baby.He said in the newspaper article it was not severe for her and she was over it.It's a done deal.It's over and she did not appear to be any more problems.It was just from having a baby. I'm moving on.What is everyone doing right now to find Kyron.Any searches ect...

keeponsearching
07-09-2010, 01:38 PM
I wrote this same thing yesterday, someplace...I don't see Terri as some mastermind who committed the perfect crime. She probably is stunned that she has not been arrested and that Kyron has not been found. I think the most elaborate part of whatever happened might be something like driving around a while to try to spread out her cell pings, if that. I think she blew, hurt Kyron and left his body someplace and then spent some time driving aorund before she dared return home. So she wouldn't really have an alibi if this is the case. But I am not buying into some plot so clever and diabolical that not even the FBI can crack the case. I think they just can't find Kyron's body.

yes. I have been wondering the same thing. I am just stuck on one thing, if its was a quick moment thing, how can she hide a body so well... I just don't get it. You think she would of been stress knowing that they had role call coming up. If she was on the island with him, I have heard most women use water to hide children.... Have they checked all of the water areas, are there any wells on the island....

Kimster
07-09-2010, 01:39 PM
STOP the rumors. Now.

STOP sleuthing Desiree. Now.

Continue to discuss the possibilities of PPD in Terri.

This post is landing at random in this thread.

seeking truth
07-09-2010, 01:40 PM
It's gone on way too far and LE said it did not come from them.I think too much focus is on all this and it's really not helping to find Kyron at all.It's sad.The focus needs to stay on Kyron and it's not.It's time for all this to stop.
How is the focus anywhere else but on Kyron? What do you think needs to stop? Law Enforcement is not saying much at all. For an LE spokesperson to state that the words coming out of Desiree and Kaine's mouth last night and this morning are not from LE is obvious. Kaine and Desiree are speaking to their individual relationships with Terri. And, I for one, believe that this is all being coordinated by, and has the blessing of all the law enforcement agencies involved in this investigation. It's basically been stated that this is the case.

LE has NOT come out and stated that Desiree and Kaine are lying when they say they are working closely with LE every day.

What is NOT said is often more important than what IS said.

My opinions and thoughts on this.

Searchfortruth
07-09-2010, 01:53 PM
It's very easy for someone with depression to convince themselves that they have no problem and discontinue medication (it's the same with many mental illnesses). Many AD's cause weight gain and for a person who is concerned about that, discontinuance is also common.

raeann
07-09-2010, 02:06 PM
Kaine's statement that she appeared to be better but may have been hiding it just shows that his intent was to make the accusations and insinuations, yet absolve himself of any knowledge or responsibility. If she was "over it" and just fine and he KNEW it, then what was the point of even bringing it up, other than to further throw stones? Really, how does saying she had this disorder, we knew it, she was treated for it, I did my 6 mo. watchdog job, she seemed to be better.....it's not my fault.....how does any of that contribute to finding Kyron in any way? Either it HAS something to do with Kyron and needed to be mentioned to the media....or it has nothing to do with Kyron and was only revealed as part of the smear campaign. KH and DY seem to want it both ways, to put negative information out there against TH, but then turn around and say it has nothing to do with this incident.

jmo

Charlie09
07-09-2010, 02:10 PM
This is seriously messed up. IDK what else to say.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/08/kaine-horman-kyrons-stepmom-suffered-post-partum-depression/

As far as Im concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone and then she could have been hiding it at that point, Kaine Horman said.

He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.
It wasnt anything that was overly violent in nature, Horman said. It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.

Horman said hes not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it.

How does one hide "erratic mood swings"? As a female who has experienced the wonderful effects of PMS over the years and now the joys of peri-menopause, I will be the first to testify (and my family members will agree lol) that mood swings are not something that can simply be hidden. We're sometimes at the mercy of our endocrine systems, even when we're completely healthy.

And I agree with others who have said if he was "supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period" why didn't he know what medication she was prescribed? IMO, part of watching someone closely who is ill is making sure they take their medication so that they get well.

This stinks. I need to open a few windows to let some air in.

I think we are still looking at hindsight - I think when you are around someone with any illness, mental or physical - you kind of get used to a "New normal" and what would have caught your attention at diagnosis might not at 4 months, and even less at 9 months.

**IF** Terri is responsible every odd look, every smart retort, every over-reaction is slamming together in his mind.....but he's probably like some of us, just not quite able to consider she really did it.

AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 02:20 PM
Kaine Horman, father of missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman, told WW in an interview tonight Kyrons stepmom suffered from post-partum depression and may have been hiding it when the boy disappeared.

~~snip~~

Hiding it? So maybe the medication was working, she stopped and had a relapse - before anyone saw symptoms? How tragic! :eek:

Jeez, when I was critically ill even my husband got involved, actually administered my meds to me, as I was not able to remember and take the right meds at the right dose at the right time, for quite some time. He took over the meds and knew everything I was on.
I *wish* is Kaine had been told she had PPD he had researched it on the internet and learned more about it. Thank God I never had it nor did any of my girls or my DIL. My oldest daughter, who is bi-polar, and now finally- after years of rollercoastering- she is stable, and doing very well. But after her baby (who is now 2) was born I was watching her closely for signs of PPD or anything else maybe caused by being bi-polar. She had to go off her meds while she was pregnant and that scared me too. But she did fine.
The internet is such a good tool for researching stuff like this, I wish/ hope he used it to learn more. Drs do not have the time during an appt to explain everything you need to know about PPD.

JMO

abbie

AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 02:31 PM
This is seriously messed up. IDK what else to say.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/08/kaine-horman-kyrons-stepmom-suffered-post-partum-depression/

As far as Im concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone and then she could have been hiding it at that point, Kaine Horman said.

He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.
It wasnt anything that was overly violent in nature, Horman said. It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.

Horman said hes not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it.

How does one hide "erratic mood swings"? As a female who has experienced the wonderful effects of PMS over the years and now the joys of peri-menopause, I will be the first to testify (and my family members will agree lol) that mood swings are not something that can simply be hidden. We're sometimes at the mercy of our endocrine systems, even when we're completely healthy.

And I agree with others who have said if he was "supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period" why didn't he know what medication she was prescribed? IMO, part of watching someone closely who is ill is making sure they take their medication so that they get well.

This stinks. I need to open a few windows to let some air in.

I haven't formed an opinion whether I am buying" that she had PPD, but if she did, she did. I just imagine her alone in that house all day, day after day, caring for baby K and Kyron when he wasn't in school, while husband was at work....she might have had no support system. If Kyron had some childhood issues, such as baby jealousy, or maybe occasioanlly hitting the baby, or anything that would set Terri off, maybe she felt Kyron had to go.
This is such a twisted and convoluted story/ family I honestly can't imagine what will come out next. Really, its all irrelevent because the only thing that matters is WHERE IS KYRON?
jmo

raeann
07-09-2010, 02:33 PM
I just find it hard to excuse "not knowing" about medication or how someone is doing, when that person is the one you are leaving in charge of your new baby and a son who would have been only 5 years old at that time. I doubt that any one here on WS would leave their child with a sitter or day care provider if they knew that person was on medication for PPD and having mood swings and erratic behavior. Rather than "watching" her, KH should have been getting therapy for her and WITH her, getting someone to help with the kids and "watch" during the day while he was at work, and making sure to HELP her himself when he was home. BUT, he doesn't report doing any thing of the sort to contribute to her recovery. He doesn't even know if or when she stopped using the medications.

human
07-09-2010, 02:44 PM
I imagine that exercise is a big part of therapy for any depression. Kaine did say that she went to the gym a few hours a day.

She did say that she was going to enter a body building contest this month, so that does show some strange thinking.

I truly believe that hindsight is 20/20.

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 02:44 PM
Dunno if she did this but some people who stop using medications and try to purposefully hide it from their family, lying about it. If there is any truth to the hitman story and she was thinking of having him killed she may not felt like communicating her deepest thoughts with him anyway.

Bodhi
07-09-2010, 02:50 PM
I don't think Kaine is handing Terri a defense. I agree with the previous post that said if she would do anything that would help get her own child back. Perhaps Terri will respond to Kaine's statements by admitting how difficult her mood swings have been, how she'd been trying to hold it all together, and ultimately how she just snapped and....did whatever she may have done to Kyron. It may give her an opening to say it was an accident but here's what happened. And the "here's what happened" to Kyron is what Kaine is determined to find out.
I am not saying Terri was not responsible, or that she had PPP or PPD. But after all the hostility, some statements of understanding from her husband may elicit a sudden break and lead to finding Kyron. Any legal proceeding has to be a secondary consideration. First, he wants to find his child.

Calliope
07-09-2010, 02:54 PM
K & D on the CBS Early Show.


They are not denying someone else maybe involved. In fact they are hoping someone else is because that would mean Kyron is being taken care of.

K - Were not having money problems.
K to the ? "Were either of you having an affair?" - K - Not that I am aware of.

D says her first thought when she got the phone call that Kyron went missing from Terri - You better not have done anything to my son.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6661870n&tag=related;photovideo

IF she was that distrustful of Terri, why wasn't Kyron in her custody? I can't imagine having my child with someone who I'd think something like that right off the bat. But then again... in the Q&A yesterday, she indicates just the opposite; says she was 'blindsided' by all of this.

Calliope
07-09-2010, 03:00 PM
bbm

I haven't heard her say any such thing.

Even if she did, it wouldn't fall under HIPAA, etc.

AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 03:03 PM
You have to remember, Kaine is a man. Men just don't pay enough attention, especially when it's women problems. When I've had mood swings around my husband, he gives me space, and even if we talk about it later, we don't talk for a long time, just enough that we know everything is back to normal and we can move on. My point is, if something were severely wrong with me, I'm sure my husband would know, but I'm not sure how closely he'd watch me or if he'd even pay attention to what medication I'm on unless it's one he already knows about, especially if it's a woman problem. He already doesn't like me talking about a period or women things like tampons or pads. He doesn't even want to think about his daughter becoming a woman. Men don't like to fixate on woman problems, even PPD.

Also, men just want things to be fixed. I'm sure he did watch her, and probably knew she was on medication, and that was the extent of it. He probably just wanted her fixed, probably wanted the problem to go away, and like every man, doesn't understand that some problems can't just be fixed. It takes time, and even with time, there's no guarantee she was going to be PPD free someday.

He probably had the hope that she would be okay and never dreamed she would get to the point where she would harm someone. There's a big difference between someone who is sick and needs help, and someone who would harm someone else. I doubt Kaine ever thought she would hurt one of his kids, and why would he necessarily make that leap?

I'm not going to come down hard on Kaine with something like this. Men just don't understand things like PPD, or PPP, or heck, even PMS, or PMDD. When it comes to women problems, men leave that to the women. Now if it's a man problem, they know all about that and will handle that, but don't want to talk about it.

Yes, maybe he should have paid more attention, and if he was a woman, he would have, but he's a man, and they just don't pay enough attention. Heck, I have to tell my husband and dad when I get a haircut because unless I shave my head, they wouldn't notice otherwise. Now the women in my life would notice if I cut just an inch. That's just how it is with men and women.

ITA. My hubby is exactly the same way as far as noticing when I used to change my hair color or cut it. Men don't "get" horomonal issues and most don;t even try to understand because frankly, most men think womens emotions and PMS and horomonal surges, and menopause, are just the biggest mysteries and they just cannot wrap their minds around it. I had to instruct my hubby during my mood swings that I was powerless over it, so we didn't get into fights during my crazy times.
And BTW hubby will trim his beard shorter and will say to me "I trimmed it up 2 days ago and you didn't even notice...", and its true, I don't notice...:),

Day Dreamer
07-09-2010, 03:08 PM
I had PPD, thankfully not PPP. I never wanted to hurt my baby, more the opposite really. I was obsessed with her and wouldn't let anybody else hold her.

I wonder if this is a 'way out of this mess' statement from Kaine to Terri.

I know where you are coming from. My grandmother died unexpectedly when my baby was 2 months old. It triggered PPD in me. There are so many different kinds of PPD. The thought of hurting my child NEVER CROSSED MY MIND!! It was more sadness, crying, and withdrawn kind of thing. I still cared for my baby 24/7. All I wanted was to be alone w/ my baby and my husband when he was home from work.

A lot of people are also being hard on Kaine for not knowing what medication she was on. In all fairness, my husband did not know the name of my meds either. He knew I was on them. I am currently on a BP med that even I can't remember the name of. I don't think it is that big of a deal. Most likely Kaine trusted in the drs that were treating his wife. Mine did.

I also agree w/ you that this may be his way of giving Terri an "out".

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 03:10 PM
IF she was that distrustful of Terri, why wasn't Kyron in her custody? I can't imagine having my child with someone who I'd think something like that right off the bat. But then again... in the Q&A yesterday, she indicates just the opposite; says she was 'blindsided' by all of this.

It might be that she suspected Terri of being able to hurt Kyron even before nothing happened but I don't think this reaction is evidence of it. I imagine that a person might think so as a knee-jerk reaction even if they haven't had any particular suspicions but do have some negative feelings.

Also, we don't know what Terri said and in what kind of tone and some of that may have caused a reaction in Desiree, and she may also have thought that it was odd that Terri or Kaine didn't call her themselves, even though it's clear that Terri had her phone with her since Desiree said that the school secretary said she had been asked to call her and she called Terri immediately after hanging up the conversation with the secretary. So, Terri and Kaine could just as easily have called her themselves and it may have already struck her as odd that they didn't, even before talking to Terri.

I find it interesting that she says she called Terri, not Kaine.

Calliope
07-09-2010, 03:12 PM
It might be that she suspected Terri of being able to hurt Kyron even before nothing happened but I don't think this reaction is evidence of it. I imagine that a person might think so as a knee-jerk reaction even if they haven't had any particular suspicions but do have some negative feelings.

Also, we don't know what Terri said and in what kind of tone and some of that may have caused a reaction in Desiree, and she may also have thought that it was odd that Terri or Kaine didn't call her themselves, even though it's clear that Terri had her phone with her since Desiree said that the school secretary said she had been asked to call her and she called Terri immediately after hanging up the conversation with the secretary. So, Terri and Kaine could just as easily have called her themselves and it may have already struck her as odd that they didn't, even before talking to Terri.

I find it interesting that she says she called Terri, not Kaine.

Indeed...

AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 03:13 PM
I had a, thankfully, mild case of PPD that went undiagnosed almost until I was climbing out of it (it took me feeling good to realize how bad I'd felt). My husband knew I wasn't myself, but he blamed that on our busy schedule and having two kids under two years old. I've since met other women who were depressed for a while before diagnosis (PPD and other forms), and for quite a few of them, the illness almost wrecked their marriages. If Kaine and TH were having problems, it could very well have been due to the PPD...even when diagnosed properly, depression is very hard on couples. I am lucky that my husband put up with a lot from me when I wasn't myself. I remind myself of that every time he leaves socks on the floor, lol.

If she is still suffering from PPD and is involved, it explains a lot, IMO.

BBM In my opinion, these press events may be orchestrated by the lady who owns the church, the one who told people in a newsletter what they should and should not speak about.

Not to be snarky, but who gave the church woman the power to "run things"? Why do they have to have all pressers at the church?
And who ever heard of one person "owning a church"? Not me, every church I have ever been familiar with was owned by the church members, or a board of church members, not one person. Weird, IMO

Calliope
07-09-2010, 03:15 PM
Not to be snarky, but who gave the church woman the power to "run things"? Why do they have to have all pressers at the church?
And who ever heard of one person "owning a church"? Not me, every church I have ever been familiar with was owned by the church members, or a board of church members, not one person. Weird, IMO

IIRC, it's not in use as a church now, but rather as some historical building or something like that. I don't remember the specifics; it was explained in one of the early pressers.

LPBwhy
07-09-2010, 03:19 PM
I apologize if this has already been dicussed, its hard to keep up :)

I do not have children, so I guess I don't understand or have experience with PPD.

For those of you that have experienced this, do the mood swings really swing that rapidly? I live in Houston, so of course I know of Yates, but do women really feel the need to hurt their child? I'm trying to see how this diagnosis/condition can lend itself to a possible homicide/kidnapping/murder for hire plot. Please forgive my ignorance, I'm just trying to learn. TIA!

AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 03:19 PM
You are correct. I had a mild case of PPD with anxiety and hallucinations. Because I was breastfeeding I was given Zoloft, which is what many women I know who are breastfeeding are given if PPD is suspected. Zoloft is pretty mild in my opinion, but it helped tremendously. I had no side affects while weaning off of it at about 10 months post-partum.

I tried Zoloft for depression several yrs ago when it first came out. The 2nd day I was on it, I was at the grocery store and felt like I was walking with my feet 2-3 inches off the ground. The feeling was bizarre and I was thankfully with my mom at the time, told her about it and then told my doc I couldn't take that med, I was 'trippin' on it. !!

hollye
07-09-2010, 03:27 PM
I imagine that exercise is a big part of therapy for any depression. Kaine did say that she went to the gym a few hours a day.

She did say that she was going to enter a body building contest this month, so that does show some strange thinking.

I truly believe that hindsight is 20/20.

BBM She did? Do you have a link? I must have missed that.

twzzlrgirl
07-09-2010, 03:30 PM
I apologize if this has already been dicussed, its hard to keep up :)

I do not have children, so I guess I don't understand or have experience with PPD.

For those of you that have experienced this, do the mood swings really swing that rapidly? I live in Houston, so of course I know of Yates, but do women really feel the need to hurt their child? I'm trying to see how this diagnosis/condition can lend itself to a possible homicide/kidnapping/murder for hire plot. Please forgive my ignorance, I'm just trying to learn. TIA!

Speaking for myself only: My mood swings were so quick that they refer to it as "rapid cycling." I never felt the need to hurt my child (quite the opposite); but I have a friend who was afraid because she would suddenly get the urge to throw the baby down. She never did, of course, but she'd have terrible thoughts and dreams where she was hurting the baby. Her husband got her help and she is now a wonderful mom of four beautiful girls.

I could see TH doing this under the umbrella of PPD if the illness caused her to be paranoid, for example, or swing into more violent bouts of bi-polar. (Remember, bi-polar is a spectrum disorder, and where she could possibly fall on this is not known...or even if that's the problem...but ppd can lead to serious personality changes, yes). MOO/and in my own experience.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 03:35 PM
How great it is that WS is seen by so many as a 'safe' forum to share experiences with PPD and/or PPP. This happens in almost every case and is the reason I learn so much here at WS. I'm always amazed by the bravery that goes along with the sharing.

Yet to be determined is how, if at all, PPD enters into the picture of missing Kyron. If it is related, we will all have a better understanding of the why and the how. That understanding comes to us as a gift from our members here at WS who took it upon themselves to share some of their most vulnerable 'new mom' experiences. A huge thanks to each of you. :blowkiss:

Hats off to Tricia and our mods for keeping WS a safe place for all. :grouphug:

twzzlrgirl
07-09-2010, 03:36 PM
How great it is that WS is seen by so many as a 'safe' forum to share experiences with PPD and/or PPP. This happens in almost every case and is the reason I learn so much here at WS. I'm always amazed by the bravery that goes along with the sharing.

Yet to be determined is how, if at all, PPD enters into the picture of missing Kyron. If it is related, we will all have a better understanding of the why and the how. That understanding comes to us as a gift from our members here at WS who took it upon themselves to share some of their most vulnerable 'new mom' experiences. A huge thanks to each of you. :blowkiss:

Hats off to Tricia and our mods for keeping WS a safe place for all. :grouphug:

Couldn't have said it better myself. Clicking the "thanks" button just wasn't enough :)

cluciano63
07-09-2010, 03:38 PM
To me, it seems possible that Terri was having the worst of the side effects listed on those documents that seem to come with all p. drugs these days...someone must manifest those side effects or the drug companies sure would not print them. I think she was taking a cocktail of stuff and suffering in silence as to the way she was feeling. Not excusing her and not blaming the meds, but they can cause paranoia and rage and even murderous thoughts. There are some newer drugs that I probably should be trying for chronic pain, but have so far resisted due to the phone book of possible side effects. And she appears, to me anyway, to have that puffy look that can come from a bunch of different meds.

As far as Kaine goes, he either words things very oddly at times or had no real idea of what went on in his household.

QueenD
07-09-2010, 04:16 PM
Geez, everytime I don't check here early in the day something new comes out, then I get behind trying to read all the pages first.
I was going to ask a few days ago if anyone knew if Terri had been on any type of
anti-depresents and then suddenly stopped them because of her up coming weight lifting contest. But I didn't ask and tried to find out looking around then got lost and said the heck with it.
I too like sorrell skye above said have the lovely PMS and now per-menopause and with that I have the mood swings. They are uncontrollable, and I really hate myself after I have them. I have never felt the need to hurt anyone or anything. When I get that way it would be best for everyone to leave, I just get verbally mean. I have tried Zoloft (made me too tired) and then a few months after my Mother passed away, I was at my OB for my yearly and I broke down badly. Everything hit me right when he said so how has the past year been? He put me on Lexapro, and it was great at first. But then it started effecting me like at work, I just could not focus and then when the weight gain started that is when I started research anti-depressants. I started the weaning myself off, but after the 2nd or 3rd day said what the heck and stopped. I didn't crack, didn't feel no different but did feel a heck alot better when it was out of my system.

I dont know about PPD only what people have said, the only thing is I try to relate that to the way I feel when I have my menopausal mood swing. I still can't see how a person could hurt a child in any way unless there are some serious brain issues. Not saying Terri has either of those. I just wish this craziness would end and Kyron can be found. I think after hearing the news conf. yesterday and KH saying this, there is a huge piece of the the puzzle missing. Oh and BTW is TH back in with WW?

AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 04:17 PM
my husband has a psych degree and is incredibly anal and he still wouldn't be able to tell you what drugs I'm on - they're in my purse and he doesn't look at the bottles or anything and yes, I'm on his benefits

and worse, I can't even tell you the names b/c the clinical names are so long and the brand names change, depending on the pharmacy (sometimes they give generic stuff)

I know what they're for and that's about it - I recently had a medical for work & had to show the nurse the bottles cause I had no idea the names

and when she asked for dates of illnesses etc., I gave her loose estimates & said check with my doctor for documentation b/c I do not remember that stuff

just some personal experience that makes it easier for me to understand the dynamics of a spouse not necessarily knowing medical history

Just a suggestion for all out there that take meds, even if you have the names of them memorized and doses, etc. I take alot of meds, and so do my daughters, for different reasons. We always keep an index card in our purses with all of our meds listed, doses, how often they are to be taken. Also the name of our prescribing docs and thier phone numbers, and on the back on my card I have all of my diagnosis listed because I have so freaking many. It may seem silly, but I had a grand mal seizure in the grocery store last year. I was alone and if not for the card in my purse I would never have been able to recall the meds I was on, or the doses. BTW, the med that caused the seizure was WellButrin, antidepressant! I had been on it for 3 years and they said it was at toxic levels in my brain even though I took it as directed. READ THOSE PAPERS that come with your Rx's at the drug store, I went back and read mine and sure enough, seizures were listed as a side effect. I had fx skull and badly bruised tailbone (fell straight back onto the hard grocery store floor) and was in hosp for a week. I have been carrying a drug card in my purse for 10 years now and its come in handy many, many times. Just FYI. This was a real pain in the rear as I was barred from driving for THREE months after the seizure, and they said I am 60% more likely to have another one in my lifetime because I had this one. Scary stuff.

chasing.halos
07-09-2010, 04:38 PM
How great it is that WS is seen by so many as a 'safe' forum to share experiences with PPD and/or PPP. This happens in almost every case and is the reason I learn so much here at WS. I'm always amazed by the bravery that goes along with the sharing.

Yet to be determined is how, if at all, PPD enters into the picture of missing Kyron. If it is related, we will all have a better understanding of the why and the how. That understanding comes to us as a gift from our members here at WS who took it upon themselves to share some of their most vulnerable 'new mom' experiences. A huge thanks to each of you. :blowkiss:

Hats off to Tricia and our mods for keeping WS a safe place for all. :grouphug:

I was just thinking this- it is so nice to be somewhere like this where I and others feel comfortable sharing some pretty heavy stuff. (((WS))) You guys are truly wonderful here.

chasing.halos
07-09-2010, 04:42 PM
I apologize if this has already been dicussed, its hard to keep up :)

I do not have children, so I guess I don't understand or have experience with PPD.

For those of you that have experienced this, do the mood swings really swing that rapidly?

Speaking for myself, I did experience some rapid mood swings. One minute I was crying and thought the world was going to end and literally the very next minute I felt really angry. I was never angry with my baby... I would get angry at others because they weren't helping me or weird things like that... hard to explain because it was so irrational!! My poor husband. Gosh I need to give him an extra hug today for being so supportive of me through that!!!

seeking truth
07-09-2010, 04:46 PM
IF she was that distrustful of Terri, why wasn't Kyron in her custody? I can't imagine having my child with someone who I'd think something like that right off the bat. But then again... in the Q&A yesterday, she indicates just the opposite; says she was 'blindsided' by all of this.I imagine it would not have been as easy as Desiree just saying "Kyron is staying with me." I get what you're saying, Calliope, but it's hard when custody is involved. What is even harder still is to imagine the grief and guilt that Desiree is feeling, though the guilt is more than likely completely undeserved on her part. Now she and Kaine are a united front, but before this, who knows what has gone on regarding custody of Kyron.

I think we need to realize that Kaine and Desiree are going through all kinds of emotions, they are talking much more freely now. We all are capable of saying and feeling contradictory things. It's one thing to believe that the woman your ex-husband married is a liar and a whole 'nother thing to imagine the woman to be capable of what she is suspected of: Disappearing her step-son and seeking to have her husband murdered.

I would guess that we would all be "blindsided" by the enormity of this, even if we couldn't stand another person.

Just my opinion and thoughts on this.

AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 04:55 PM
Can't find the post I wanted to reply to, I think it may have been deleted by admin, but just a reminder-
1. It has NOT been confirmed that DY is a nurse and we need to stop bringing that up.

2. Even if she WAS a nurse, the poster said she would be in BIG TROUBLE for discussing Terris possible medical issues, I assume the poster was referring to HIPPA and healthcare workers.
HIPPA laws pertain to medical personnel discussing THEIR PATIENTS, as a privacy issue. They do not pertain to a nurse (or anyone) discussing the possible medical issues of her sister in law, aunt, step mom to her kid, etc..

Jus sayin. DY is no dummy and she would know her boundaries, I am guessing. Her profession has not been brought up in MSM and we can't discuss it.

Hope I don't get into trouble for bringing this up but it isn't a sleuthing issue.....

K!tty
07-09-2010, 04:59 PM
In the picture that accompanies this article, KH is wearing his wedding band. That seems odd to me. Of course I'm assuming the photo was taking during the interview with WW, but I guess it could be an older photo.

Sorry if someone has already pointed this out. I haven't read all the posts on this thread.

AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 05:05 PM
Speaking for myself only: My mood swings were so quick that they refer to it as "rapid cycling." I never felt the need to hurt my child (quite the opposite); but I have a friend who was afraid because she would suddenly get the urge to throw the baby down. She never did, of course, but she'd have terrible thoughts and dreams where she was hurting the baby. Her husband got her help and she is now a wonderful mom of four beautiful girls.

I could see TH doing this under the umbrella of PPD if the illness caused her to be paranoid, for example, or swing into more violent bouts of bi-polar. (Remember, bi-polar is a spectrum disorder, and where she could possibly fall on this is not known...or even if that's the problem...but ppd can lead to serious personality changes, yes). MOO/and in my own experience.

MY DD who is bi polar is also a rapid cycler and getting her meds "right" has taken since January, trying this, changing that, adding this, stopping that, and dose increases and decreases. Getting the right combination is very tricky and after the correct meds are finally figured out, the BP person has to be diligent about taking them everyday, and not stopping them when they feel better. Its a classic sign of BP's to go off their meds when they are feeling better and then they crash and its a big mess. I remind my DD everyday by phone to be sure sure taking her meds.

mchris1024
07-09-2010, 05:08 PM
I also question why more wasn't done by BOTH parents to protect Kyron if they had so many concerns, I'm not judging just know from my own experience that mothers do have "gut instincts" and I've used mine to protect my kids. Very frustrated with the twist and turns.

AbbieNormal
07-09-2010, 05:11 PM
I imagine it would not have been as easy as Desiree just saying "Kyron is staying with me." I get what you're saying, Calliope, but it's hard when custody is involved. What is even harder still is to imagine the grief and guilt that Desiree is feeling, though the guilt is more than likely completely undeserved on her part. Now she and Kaine are a united front, but before this, who knows what has gone on regarding custody of Kyron.

I think we need to realize that Kaine and Desiree are going through all kinds of emotions, they are talking much more freely now. We all are capable of saying and feeling contradictory things. It's one thing to believe that the woman your ex-husband married is a liar and a whole 'nother thing to imagine the woman to be capable of what she is suspected of: Disappearing her step-son and seeking to have her husband murdered.

I would guess that we would all be "blindsided" by the enormity of this, even if we couldn't stand another person.

Just my opinion and thoughts on this.



The fact that it occured to DY IMMEDIATELY that TH did something to Kyron tells me she knew Terri was "not right". Maybe DY did ask Kaine for custody of Kyron but Kaine was too selfish to give Kyron back, despite the problems Terri was having. Maybe her sons being sent to grandparents had something to do with HER mental problems and not so much the sons school and grades issues, and butting heads or whatever. Of course Kaine never dreamed Terri was capable of trying to find a hit man to off him or taking his child and doing whatever it is she has done with Kyron. But the family dynamics could have been such that Kyron returning to live with Dy was not even an option. Too bad, summertime would have been the perfect time for him to transition to his moms house and get him enrolled in a new school. But, hindsight is 20/20 and nobody knew what TH was capable of, planning, thinking or going through.

78gidget78
07-09-2010, 05:13 PM
I apologize if this has already been dicussed, its hard to keep up :)

I do not have children, so I guess I don't understand or have experience with PPD.

For those of you that have experienced this, do the mood swings really swing that rapidly? I live in Houston, so of course I know of Yates, but do women really feel the need to hurt their child? I'm trying to see how this diagnosis/condition can lend itself to a possible homicide/kidnapping/murder for hire plot. Please forgive my ignorance, I'm just trying to learn. TIA!

for myself, i don't actually recall having rapid mood swings, although a lot of it seems a blur to me now. i do recall an overwhelming feeling of just overall despondency and hopelessness. also that everything seemed really daunting and overwhelming. very small tasks seemed nearly impossible. also anxiety and being paranoid at every little thing, the phone ringing, a car driving up the street etc. i had a terrible and completely irrational fear that children's services was going to "find out" that i was unfit and just come remove all my kids. there was absolutely no basis for this. lastly and darkest for me was that i had very real fantasies/delusions of just walking away and disappearing from my life and that my family would be so much better off if i were not part of it. again no basis for this. i guess looking back i did have significant swings between being extremely fearful and "amped up" to being very hopeless and "why bother". hope that helps

gitana1
07-09-2010, 05:17 PM
I'm not buying it either..Now.. I'll go read the comments at that link..JMO

Here's the thing, I keep seeing people suspecting/disbelieving everything that comes out of Kaine's mouth, but if he's making stuff up, it would backfire quickly and with very dire consequences to him, such as suddenly the investigation turns towards the liar, and away from TH, or he loses his custody and RO case to TH because he has been disproved as a huge liar. I am confused why some doubt his veracity. The things people are doubting, such as whether LE told him there is probable cause to believe TH tired to hire someone to kill him, or that she did something to Kyron, or that she had post-partum, or that he was at work at the times he said he was on the day Kyron disappeared - all things I have seen people state they do not believe or mistrust - these are things easily proved or disproved. So until LE says, or a media source or a court of law finds, that Kaine is lying, why believe he is lying? That makes no sense. If he was found to be lying about these things, which LE could quickly determine, it would look very suspicious and the focus, I think, would quickly shift. My opinion is he is not lying. LE would have shifted their tack by now, if he was.

twzzlrgirl
07-09-2010, 05:21 PM
MY DD who is bi polar is also a rapid cycler and getting her meds "right" has taken since January, trying this, changing that, adding this, stopping that, and dose increases and decreases. Getting the right combination is very tricky and after the correct meds are finally figured out, the BP person has to be diligent about taking them everyday, and not stopping them when they feel better. Its a classic sign of BP's to go off their meds when they are feeling better and then they crash and its a big mess. I remind my DD everyday by phone to be sure sure taking her meds.

I know how she feels! The rapid cycling can be hell, and I was always afraid, in times when I felt "ok" that someone was going to think I was losing it!

I've told my doctor that, now that my meds are right, I"m staying on them until the day i die! I have a two week "med-minder" and, yes, my mom and dad call all the time to make sure I'm still taking them regularly! You are a good mom ;)

OT, I know....but we've all been sharing some amazing stuff here. Makes me think that more people need support systems in there lives where they can talk it out and not feel so alone. Sometimes, all you really need is to know you aren't the only one going through something. I wonder if Terri had that?

mchris1024
07-09-2010, 05:22 PM
The fact that it occured to DY IMMEDIATELY that TH did something to Kyron tells me she knew Terri was "not right". Maybe DY did ask Kaine for custody of Kyron but Kaine was too selfish to give Kyron back, despite the problems Terri was having. Maybe her sons being sent to grandparents had something to do with HER mental problems and not so much the sons school and grades issues, and butting heads or whatever. Of course Kaine never dreamed Terri was capable of trying to find a hit man to off him or taking his child and doing whatever it is she has done with Kyron. But the family dynamics could have been such that Kyron returning to live with Dy was not even an option. Too bad, summertime would have been the perfect time for him to transition to his moms house and get him enrolled in a new school. But, hindsight is 20/20 and nobody knew what TH was capable of, planning, thinking or going through.

my grandmother raised my cousin and his mother ALWAYS had an opinion about EVERYTHING, critizied decisions, made accusations, BUT never tried to get him, we are ALL assuming DY is a loving mother because she is heart broken etc. right now....WE DON'T EVEN KNOW THIS LITTLE BOY AND WE ARE HEARTBROKEN, for all we know DY and TH had issues because TH felt like she was Kyron's mother and DY didn't like that BUT didn't want him fulltime, we really don't know what went on prior this.

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 05:23 PM
TH did not kill Kyron within the time boundaries of the diagnosis of PPD. Because of the time boundary of this diagnosis, if the defense wants to use an insanity defense, they would be wiser to choose "Major Depression with psychotic features" rather than PPD.
http://www.wmitchell.edu/lawreview/volume32/issue1/7march.pdf

twzzlrgirl
07-09-2010, 05:24 PM
I also question why more wasn't done by BOTH parents to protect Kyron if they had so many concerns, I'm not judging just know from my own experience that mothers do have "gut instincts" and I've used mine to protect my kids. Very frustrated with the twist and turns.

ITA..which is why I can't decide whether KH and DY have seen things that seem off for the last 7 1/2 years, or whether their comments are coming from a "hindsight is 20/20" type of thing. Are they just putting things together now?

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 05:33 PM
He told WW the illness came on after the birth of their daughter K 19 months ago and lasted well over a year.

“As far as I’m concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone — and then she could have been hiding it at that point,” Kaine Horman said.

**snip**

He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.

“It wasn’t anything that was overly violent in nature,” Horman said. “It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.”

**snip**

I was just supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period, which I did do,” he said. “And after the six months, things seemed to be OK

**snip**

Sound like PPD began shortly after baby girl was born, treatment was started, and she showed symptoms of erratic behavior until a couple months ago? Did she go off her medication? How terrible for her...for everyone. moo

To read - click on first heading in "posted in" right under the picture.

PLEASE REMEMBER - do NOT USE MINOR'S NAME...BABY GIRL, BABY K ETC. THANKS

http://www.wweek.com/


Rapid mood swings are consistent with many other psychiatric illnesses in addition to PPD. These include: Bipolar Disorder, Cyclothymia, numerous personality disorders, numerous forms of substance abuse, and dependency "issues." Also, rapid mood swings are consistent with non-psychiatric illnesses. Examples of these are found in the endocrine disorders or brain disorders.

Just because a new mom has mood swings does not mean she MUST have PPD.
(IMO.... I'd first check the liquor cabinet for "magically" disappearing bottles.)

Meagain
07-09-2010, 05:35 PM
ZERO role

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 05:38 PM
ITA..which is why I can't decide whether KH and DY have seen things that seem off for the last 7 1/2 years, or whether their comments are coming from a "hindsight is 20/20" type of thing. Are they just putting things together now?

I think that's what they've been saying. Talking about being blindsided and at the same time having lots of concerns. IMO it's the hindsight phenomenon when lots of things that you thought odd, concerning, irritating or wanted to consider harmless at the time get a new scary meaning when something actually happens.

Few children would ever be hurt if people could correctly interpret all the warning signs all the time and act promptly upon them. Often people find it quite hard to believe that bad things could happen in their family, their loved ones could do something evil and want to think that things will work out in the end.

I think it's a shielding mechanism because we'd go crazy if we always gave everything the worst possible interpretation but it can work against us when there is real cause for concern and we ignore it.

Of course it's also possible that some things they remember are a bit tinted now with the current suspicions. There must have been good moments but they're now just mentioning the bad ones because they seem more relevant currently.

mchris1024
07-09-2010, 05:39 PM
If only custody arrangments were as easy to change as some believe. It's not, I've seen enough of them to know. My heart goes out to DY, I'm pretty sure her coulda woulda shoulda's are much bigger then anything we can imagine.

I am not saying they are easy or cheap, but I'm saying when I thought my daughter was in danger I spent 2 1/2 years in court was in court at least every 60 days and spent $30,000....not EASY BUT I got supervised visits, protecting her was my #1 priority....I feel very sorry for DY and I am sure her shoulda woulda coulda moments are awful, but if we are going to pick apart EVERYTHING else and speculate about EVERYONE let's be fair. She had a reason for believing TH was responsible if it was her first thought when she got the call....what had she done to protect her son?

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 05:40 PM
ZERO role

Please define "ZERO role."
TIA

MsFacetious
07-09-2010, 05:40 PM
It might be that she suspected Terri of being able to hurt Kyron even before nothing happened but I don't think this reaction is evidence of it. I imagine that a person might think so as a knee-jerk reaction even if they haven't had any particular suspicions but do have some negative feelings.

Also, we don't know what Terri said and in what kind of tone and some of that may have caused a reaction in Desiree, and she may also have thought that it was odd that Terri or Kaine didn't call her themselves, even though it's clear that Terri had her phone with her since Desiree said that the school secretary said she had been asked to call her and she called Terri immediately after hanging up the conversation with the secretary. So, Terri and Kaine could just as easily have called her themselves and it may have already struck her as odd that they didn't, even before talking to Terri.

I find it interesting that she says she called Terri, not Kaine.

I don't think Desiree thought Terri could hurt Kyron. Baby K was 7 months old at the end of last school year. They could have transitioned Kyron then if there was major concerns. I definitely do not think that she tried to have Kyron come live with her in the 18 months because she had concerns and Kaine wouldn't let him.

Desiree is being very classy and restrained, but her feelings are written all over her face. Her feelings for Terri are crystal clear. She does not have that type of anger towards Kaine that she does towards Terri. If she had tried to take Kyron back and Kaine said no, she would be almost as angry at him as she is at Terri.

I think it's possible her instincts kicked in immediately upon hearing he was missing. If the step mother OR baby sitter of my child asked the school secretary to call and tell me my child was missing, THAT would raise some huge red flags for me.

I think it probably contributed to Desiree's immediately thinking "She better not have done anything to my son." It immediately struck me as "wow, she couldn't even call and tell her that herself? What was she afraid of if the school lost him?" Even Ron Cummings called Crystal! He didn't ask the cops to do it for him. I would immediately pick up the phone and call her, right after making sure the cops were on their way.

I don't find it at all odd that Desiree called Terri and not Kaine. The school secretary told her that Terri asked her to call and tell her. There was no mention of Kaine. Of course she would call Terri because Terri is obviously the person who would know something since they are there.

I can also see how what Terri told her would bother her. Quite a bit of detail if it's not asked for. I would be franitc "They are saying Kyron wasn't here all day!!! He was here this morning but they are saying he hasn't been here all day!! Why didn't they call me!! This can't be right!"

Terri gives all the detail about the Science fair, walking towards the classroom but not into it, says that was the last she saw him. It just seems odd if Desiree did not question her further to give so much detail. So I can also see that raising red flags too.

Then when you add in the hindsight... I can understand how they are so sure of her involvement regardless of any previous red flags.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24197226/detail.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6661870n&tag=related;photovideo

"Desiree Young, Kyron's mother, said she was at work June 4 in southern Oregon when she received a phone call from the Skyline School secretary. The secretary told Young that Terri Horman, Kyron's stepmother, asked her to call and inform her that Kyron was missing.

Young said she immediately called Terri Horman, who was the last person to see Kyron, according to investigators.

"I said, 'What in the hell is going on?' She informed me that she had gone to the science fair that morning and she did not walk into his classroom, but saw him walk toward his classroom and that was the last she saw him," Young told CNN. "He was marked absent at 10."

indicat
07-09-2010, 05:43 PM
I am not saying they are easy or cheap, but I'm saying when I thought my daughter was in danger I spent 2 1/2 years in court was in court at least every 60 days and spent $30,000....not EASY BUT I got supervised visits, protecting her was my #1 priority....I feel very sorry for DY and I am sure her shoulda woulda coulda moments are awful, but if we are going to pick apart EVERYTHING else and speculate about EVERYONE let's be fair. She had a reason for believing TH was responsible if it was her first thought when she got the call....what had she done to protect her son?

I actually posted that on the wrong thread. As for myself, I have not picked apart anybody so I won't take that as directed at me. I find it non productive to go with the picking apart that starts to happen, we simply still do not have enough facts and I don't even know what to think about these press conf. that KH and DY are holding other then I have some feelings about picking apart DY for the custody issue. I applaud your efforts, I know from personal experience how hard custody issues can be and $$$$

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 05:45 PM
IMO you might think "What did you do to him, you witch" if you just deeply dislike somebody even if you never thought she was an actual danger to children before.

I think if there used to be a messy divorce and strained relationship with your ex's new wife a lot of gut reactions might have been explained away as the result of the jealousy, anger, bitterness and any other negative feelings that might persist between two women in such a situation and if people are trying to establish a good working relationship they may try to ignore such feelings.

Besides, you might need some kind of evidence for the courts to give you full custody. An apparently well cared for child might not be removed from his established home just because the mother has a bad feeling about the stepmom.

Kat
07-09-2010, 06:01 PM
Rapid mood swings are consistent with many other psychiatric illnesses in addition to PPD. These include: Bipolar Disorder, Cyclothymia, numerous personality disorders, numerous forms of substance abuse, and dependency "issues." Also, rapid mood swings are consistent with non-psychiatric illnesses. Examples of these are found in the endocrine disorders.

Just because a new mom has mood swings does not mean she MUST have PPD.
(IMO.... I'd first check the liquor cabinet for "magically" disappearing bottles.)

Pensfan, I am using your post to jump off of, I hope you don't mind.

I'm hoping that there is someone here that knows the distinct difference between PPD and PPP.

I don't know much about PPP. (Although I do know about PPD, it is only a personal experience where I had to have treatment after my 5th child, which lasted only 6 months approx.)

I do understand that PPD (or even general depression can run on a scale so to speak and that each individual will have simular symptoms but the severity will vary).

When we seen cases where an infant or toddler is murdered by their natural Mother it is usually attributed to PPP. Postpartum Psychosis.

I'm trying to remember where we have seen PPD instead of PPP attributed as the reason an infant or toddler were murdered.

I thought about this last night when I went to bed. There was a spate of murders of children over a few years in TX a while back. But those children were all murdered by their natural mothers who in turn were suffering from PPD (or found to be suffering from another form of psychosis).

Now, FWIW, if TH had murdered baby girl then I wouldn't have a problem with this being suggested as a possible illness for TH. (PPP).

But did TH have psychotic symptoms? How hard is it to hide psychosis from your family for 19 months? She had meds so apparently she had been seeing a doc I can assume?

I just posted this because I know there are members here that have posted about these two different illnesses in the past and I wanted to get a handle inside my own head of the probability of either of these being a factor in TH's behavior?

TIA for any insight! :)

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 06:03 PM
Snipped for space. I agree.

Except:
Even Ron Cummings called Crystal! He didn't ask the cops to do it for him.

No, he didn't. His mother did.


"I said, 'What in the hell is going on?' She informed me that she had gone to the science fair that morning and she did not walk into his classroom, but saw him walk toward his classroom and that was the last she saw him," Young told CNN. "He was marked absent at 10."

If this is a reasonably accurate recap of what Terri said the first thing and she didn't leave out anything it would concern me too because Terri is basically focusing on herself and her last sighting here. I last saw him at school and that's all I know.

It turns out it was important because it was the last known sighting of Kyron but I doubt that anybody except the perp knew what the last sighting was at that time.

(I don't know if anything else was known at that point of time so her last sighting might have been all she knew though...)
Compare it to a fictional story:
"He wasn't in the school bus and the school said he had been absent all day, I took him to school in the morning so I don't really understand what happened but he must have disappeared before his first class. Where can he have gone? I'm so worried... When can you come?"

BACK ON TOPIC:
Someone asked about psychotic symptoms. Usually psychotic symptoms are quite apparent and worrying to the family when it's sudden or bad enough but sometimes the start may be so insidious that people don't really notice until it gets real bad. And there are different types of psychotic symptoms. Severe hallucinations and weird behavior are more noticeable but if somebody tends to isolate himself, talks very little or is guarded about talking his symptoms, is otherwise apathetic and the symptoms are more in his mind than his behavior it may be chalked up to some milder disorder such as depression etc.

This is in regards of untreated psychosis. If the patient is on medication and it's working well they may seem pretty normal or at least functional enough. Some odd thought patterns may be evident if you talk long enough, but the difference between good times and bad times may be striking.

Susan10
07-09-2010, 06:17 PM
PPD is linked with too many horrid crimes. ADs don't help in all cases and can make things worse. Down near the bottom of this article, this Oregon case is noted.
http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=postpartum

There are even cases in which children are returned to a mother who's murdered a child (to find the particular example in this article, scroll down past all of the Andrea Yates articles and a couple beyond.
http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/post-partum-depression/news-and-features.html?page=2

PPD may be a mitigating factor, but it doesn't guarentee no sentence.

Amster
07-09-2010, 06:18 PM
http://www.kgw.com/video?id=98125569&sec=547977

Desiree talks about the phone call

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 06:18 PM
Pensfan, I am using your post to jump off of, I hope you don't mind.

I'm hoping that there is someone here that knows the distinct difference between PPD and PPP.

I don't know much about PPP. (Although I do know about PPD, it is only a personal experience where I had to have treatment after my 5th child, which lasted only 6 months approx.)

I do understand that PPD (or even general depression can run on a scale so to speak and that each individual will have simular symptoms but the severity will vary).

When we seen cases where an infant or toddler is murdered by their natural Mother it is usually attributed to PPP. Postpartum Psychosis.

I'm trying to remember where we have seen PPD instead of PPP attributed as the reason an infant or toddler were murdered.

I thought about this last night when I went to bed. There was a spate of murders of children over a few years in TX a while back. But those children were all murdered by their natural mothers who in turn were suffering from PPD (or found to be suffering from another form of psychosis).

Now, FWIW, if TH had murdered baby girl then I wouldn't have a problem with this being suggested as a possible illness for TH. (PPP).

But did TH have psychotic symptoms? How hard is it to hide psychosis from your family for 19 months? She had meds so apparently she had been seeing a doc I can assume?

I just posted this because I know there are members here that have posted about these two different illnesses in the past and I wanted to get a handle inside my own head of the probability of either of these being a factor in TH's behavior?

TIA for any insight! :)
Psychotic symptoms are behaviors that show that the individual is NOT in touch with reality. The symptoms can include delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, extreme mania, and etc... To be diagnosed as psychotic, an individual has to be unable to meet their daily activities/life demands and be out-of-touch with reality. Kaine and THs mom would clearly know if TH was psychotic. TH would have been unable to take Kyron to school that morning and act appropriately around others. Members of Terri's and Kaine's gym would also be able to tell if TH was psychotic.

TH was not psychotic. She made many rational and organized decisions that day. She fed her children breakfast, took Kyron to the science fair, supposedly ran errands, posted on the internet, talked with her rational husband, bus driver, teachers, and LE that day. No one stated that TH was disoriented and was acting paranoid, delusional, talking to voices in her head, and etc.... She was not psychotic and there are many witnesses to her non-psychotic/sane behavior.

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 06:36 PM
Do we know what everybody who met her stated about her mental state? I haven't heard anything from the busdriver or the teachers, etc.

I don't think we have any reason to think she was psychotic because so far nobody has said anything to suggest that but just because you give your children breakfast doesn't mean that you couldn't be.

We also need to distinguish between having an acute psychotic episode or a psychotic disease. Not everyone with a psychotic diagnosis is acutely delusional or acting bizarrely all the time.

Kat
07-09-2010, 06:46 PM
Psychotic symptoms are behaviors that show that the individual is NOT in touch with reality. The symptoms can include delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, extreme mania, and etc... To be diagnosed as psychotic, an individual has to be unable to meet their daily activities/life demands and be out-of-touch with reality. Kaine and THs mom would clearly know if TH was psychotic. TH would have been unable to take Kyron to school that morning and act appropriately around others. Members of Terri's and Kaine's gym would also be able to tell if TH was psychotic.

TH was not psychotic. She made many rational and organized decisions that day. She fed her children breakfast, took Kyron to the science fair, supposedly ran errands, posted on the internet, talked with her rational husband, bus driver, teachers, and LE that day. No one stated that TH was disoriented and was acting paranoid, delusional, talking to voices in her head, and etc.... She was not psychotic and there are many witnesses to her non-psychotic/sane behavior.

Thanks for the response PF. I didn't think she was psychotic either.

I also don't think that PPD causes a woman to murder a child.

PPP yes. Not PPD. Just my Humble opinion.

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 06:50 PM
Wonder what Kaine meant by "erratic behavior".

Padua
07-09-2010, 07:00 PM
Individuals in a psychotic episode will have to either have loose associations or a thought disorder. The best way to think of a thought disorder would be word salad.

Example:
How are you doing?

The cabbage is blue and the dog is eating the dishwasher.

They can't combine the correct words together to make a well thought out sentence.

Padua
07-09-2010, 07:02 PM
One client of mine with childhood onset schizophrenia came in and said "Can you get the dog out of me?" This continually happened once a month and I finally figured out she was having cramps from PMS. PMS medicine helped. She just couldn't put the words together to communicate what was actually wrong with her.

Padua
07-09-2010, 07:10 PM
Can we start a thread, I wonder? Psych issues just keep coming up in all sorts of threads, so it might be a good reference.

Don't think it would hurt.

Ms Suzanne
07-09-2010, 07:13 PM
Untill we hear a Drs diagnosis of her not just Kaines opinion.I don't think it's really fair to her to assume what is going on.It's not fact.

Padua
07-09-2010, 07:13 PM
I also wanted to add Depression can manifest for different reasons: hormone imbalance, chemical imbalance, Vitamin D Deficiency (that happens A LOT), thyroid problems, obesity, seizure disorder. I could go on and on.

YellowSubmarine
07-09-2010, 07:18 PM
FWIW....

PPD has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone LOVES THEIR BABY. There is no stigma involved in this diagnosis at all. Many here today have admitted to having this illness, and while I personally have no experience with the symptoms, I certainly would never assume that those posters who report having gone through this did not love their children to the fullest extent.

I'm sorry my post came off wrong. What I meant was that Kaine not understanding the disease may have thought he was having to admit his wife didn't love the baby. I did not mean to say that those with PPD don't love their children! But, the taboo stigma with PPD is just that, or at least those dealing with wives with it may think.

YellowSubmarine
07-09-2010, 07:26 PM
Kyron's parents told CNN that Terri Horman seemed to focus on herself and how she felt instead of focusing on finding Kyron.
"We were all charging ahead and doing everything we can to find our son we had someone who was not willing to do that," Kaine Horman said.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24197226/detail.html


BBM --

It's funny, I was just watching one of the pc's where TH was clutching Kaine - she was burying herself in him, like SHE needed comforting. She seemed overly dramatic with her head in his chest and him almost holding her up, whispering, comforting her. Then, she turns to Desiree and is laying on her, almost like SHE was seeking comfort from her. Her eyes were mostly closed except for a few times you see them flutter open, almost to see if anyone is looking at her. It was like NARCISSIST was flashing in bright neon lights!

Melanie
07-09-2010, 07:28 PM
...Horman said hes not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it

~~snip~~

He didn't know??? How can that be? Did Terri take the medication long enough? And if she stopped, was it abrupt or did she wean off slowly.

Wish we knew about this early on. I think it could have everything to do with what has happened. moo

No way -- doesn't even sound like a marriage. My husband has a list of every medication/dosage/time taken, etc, along with the dr. name. Just in case I have to go to the hospital. This is especially important for those being treated for diabetes and an irregular heart beat. Ialso keep a copy in my wallet.

If she was on meds for over a year (or thereabouts), how does he NOT know? He never picked up a script? Someone suffering from PPD should always be monitored even to make sure the meds are being taken correctly.

Ughhh....

Mel

cdan
07-09-2010, 07:33 PM
No way -- doesn't even sound like a marriage. My husband has a list of every medication/dosage/time taken, etc, along with the dr. name. Just in case I have to go to the hospital. This is especially important for those being treated for diabetes and an irregular heart beat. Ialso keep a copy in my wallet.

If she was on meds for over a year (or thereabouts), how does he NOT know? He never picked up a script? Someone suffering from PPD should always be monitored even to make sure the meds are being taken correctly.

Ughhh....

Mel

my husband has NO CLUE what I'm on or how long I've taken things. He doesn't ask, and i don't volunteer it. Also, no, not in 19 years has he EVER picked up an Rx for me. In the event of an emergency, he would know where to locate my meds and he also knows what pharmacy I go to, but as for the specifics of what I take and why, we've NEVER discussed it.

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 07:33 PM
Supposing she hurt Kyron somehow it makes sense for her to be self-centered regardless of diagnosis. She wouldn't need to focus on finding Kyron because she'd know where he is and might not want him found, and she would have trouble showing real concern for Kyron's parents because she would never have hurt him and hidden him in the first place if she was the least bit worried about how devastated all his loved ones are going to be.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 07:34 PM
BBM --

It's funny, I was just watching one of the pc's where TH was clutching Kaine - she was burying herself in him, like SHE needed comforting. She seemed overly dramatic with her head in his chest and him almost holding her up, whispering, comforting her. Then, she turns to Desiree and is laying on her, almost like SHE was seeking comfort from her. Her eyes were mostly closed except for a few times you see them flutter open, almost to see if anyone is looking at her. It was like NARCISSIST was flashing in bright neon lights!

I noticed that behavior too. She seemed like a needy little girl. Course given the circumstances I don't know how telling that is. I just posted something on another thread re; the parents pressor. They said she had been very vocal about advertising she's failed her polygraphs. Link for that;
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20400681,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20400681,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines)


and I mentioned it seemed like/similar to munchousen by proxy. I'm no shrink and I'm not saying that's the case. I believe the Mother even said she likes attention or limelight something to that affect. I've heard tell of people doing the oddest things to gain bizarre attention for themselves. Oh my I can't help but wonder what's transpiring in this case. It's scary. I wish they'd find the little boy. He's so precious.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 07:37 PM
Supposing she hurt Kyron somehow it makes sense for her to be self-centered regardless of diagnosis. She wouldn't need to focus on finding Kyron because she'd know where he is and might not want him found, and she would have trouble showing real concern for Kyron's parents because she would never have hurt him and hidden him in the first place if she was the least bit worried about how devastated all his loved ones are going to be.

This case Donjeta is sounding very odd to me. I don't follow all you're saying but I get most of it and who knows. It's so weird. I hope Kyron's okay but it was even hard to type that word. I'm very frightened for him. He's just a baby. Why oh why.

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 07:43 PM
my husband has NO CLUE what I'm on or how long I've taken things. He doesn't ask, and i don't volunteer it. Also, no, not in 19 years has he EVER picked up an Rx for me. In the event of an emergency, he would know where to locate my meds and he also knows what pharmacy I go to, but as for the specifics of what I take and why, we've NEVER discussed it.

Same here for the most part.

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 07:46 PM
I don't know what medicines my husband is on... He takes something for asthma and something to prevent migraines and occasionally something for his pain or stomach troubles but I have no clue about the brand names or the dosages. I would probably recognize the usual packaging visually but he's had several generic products that are pretty non-descript.

A spouse might not ask and another might not tell. Some people might feel that it is offensive for spouses to watch the other's medication beyond the occasional question about have you been taking the pills and are they helping. If a spouse demands to be allowed to observe the pill-taking each day and pick up the prescriptions etc. it could be seen as patronizing. Especially if someone is not willing to take their medications they may take offence if someone wants to control it. Mental health medications may be an extra sensitive issue.

PoppyH
07-09-2010, 07:52 PM
my husband has NO CLUE what I'm on or how long I've taken things. He doesn't ask, and i don't volunteer it. Also, no, not in 19 years has he EVER picked up an Rx for me. In the event of an emergency, he would know where to locate my meds and he also knows what pharmacy I go to, but as for the specifics of what I take and why, we've NEVER discussed it.

I have IBS and take Bentyl for it, ask my hubby and he would have no clue LOL thats just , now I know what HE takes his BP meds and OTC stuff but , but as far as me he knows I take something, but not what it is

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 08:13 PM
Psychotic symptoms are behaviors that show that the individual is NOT in touch with reality. The symptoms can include delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, extreme mania, and etc... To be diagnosed as psychotic, an individual has to be unable to meet their daily activities/life demands and be out-of-touch with reality. Kaine and TH’s mom would clearly know if TH was psychotic. TH would have been unable to take Kyron to school that morning and act appropriately around others. Members of Terri's and Kaine's gym would also be able to tell if TH was psychotic.

TH was not psychotic. She made many rational and organized decisions that day. She fed her children breakfast, took Kyron to the science fair, supposedly ran errands, posted on the internet, talked with her rational husband, bus driver, teachers, and LE that day. No one stated that TH was disoriented and was acting paranoid, delusional, talking to voices in her head, and etc.... She was not psychotic and there are many witnesses to her non-psychotic/sane behavior.

Hi there Pensfan! I didn't see reports of Terri being disorganized in her thinking or any evidence that she was out of touch with reality. What I do know is that Terri was diagnosed with PPD and if not treated properly PPD can become a depression with psychotic features.

We know from Kaine that Terri was diagnosed with PPD. If we knew what medications she was on we would know if psychosis was a problem. Meds such as Risperdal would give us insight as to how serious her PPD was. Not seeing psychosis, suicidal and homicidal ideation can often mean good control with medication. If the meds are stopped too soon, we will see symptoms return, I see it over and over.

The only way that psychosis (PPP) would have played a part at 18 months post partum is if Terri was being treated and fell of her med regimen. Manual of Mental Disorders: DSM-IV-TR. is vague regarding PPP and we don't know if she was seeing a doctor who used DSM rather than his/her own experience. As time goes by, and postpartum is no longer obvious, a diagnose of major depression with psychotic features could be given.

We don't know if physical illnesses such as hypothyroidism was ruled out but we can all hope she was treated properly.

The technicalities of diagnosing often get in the way of good treatment moo mho

Adalena935
07-09-2010, 08:29 PM
I don't know what medicines my husband is on... He takes something for asthma and something to prevent migraines and occasionally something for his pain or stomach troubles but I have no clue about the brand names or the dosages. I would probably recognize the usual packaging visually but he's had several generic products that are pretty non-descript.

A spouse might not ask and another might not tell. Some people might feel that it is offensive for spouses to watch the other's medication beyond the occasional question about have you been taking the pills and are they helping. If a spouse demands to be allowed to observe the pill-taking each day and pick up the prescriptions etc. it could be seen as patronizing. Especially if someone is not willing to take their medications they may take offence if someone wants to control it. Mental health medications may be an extra sensitive issue.

All that maybe plus it may be that every relationship is different and some couples just never get into it. It's just never a part of the relationship very much. If someone's very ill yeah but otherwise daily monitoring no. Maybe some people don't mind each other that well when it comes to those sorts of things. Maybe she wasn't that ill and maybe if she had been he might have made an issue of it. Didn't he sort of elude to that? I know I read somewhere that he said she wasn't always forthright but he never thought it would be anything so dramatic; my paraphrase.

Aedrys
07-09-2010, 08:43 PM
Supposing she hurt Kyron somehow it makes sense for her to be self-centered regardless of diagnosis. She wouldn't need to focus on finding Kyron because she'd know where he is and might not want him found, and she would have trouble showing real concern for Kyron's parents because she would never have hurt him and hidden him in the first place if she was the least bit worried about how devastated all his loved ones are going to be.

The bolded portion is what really confuses me. Why on earth would she think that if Kryon went missing, SHE would get all of the attention? What made her think that KH and DY would feel sorry for her? I don't get how she thought they wouldn't be furious at her and not think she was involved. She must be living some kind of deluded fantasy life to think that if Kyron was gone, somehow she would be more important than him. That makes no sense to me. These people are not the A's, they are not going to go into denial mode and protect her. And if there really was tension in and between the homes, she is nuts for making Kyron disappear in the first place. Talk about going from the frying pan into the fire.

butwhatif?
07-09-2010, 08:54 PM
My friends mom was a changed person during her menstrual cycle, I wonder if thats when the erratic behavior took place. The friend would tell me anything could make her mom blow up, and even once her mom had hit her, enough to bruise.... I think after having kids, some people hormonal level doesn't balance quite right.

Normally this hits during the pre-menstrual cycle ...Anytime after ovulation and prior to menstruation.
For me, it's the whole two weeks out of every month, and for those two weeks I need Xanax to curb the massive mood swings , self harming, and/or suicidal ideation.
Before the xanax, I had a genuine (not cry for help) suicide attempt and two psych admissions- both times I got my period within a few days.
I have sufferred depression and PMDD since my teens, but PMDD is very different.

While it often manifests in puberty, it seems to get worse during 20's and 30's and has been known to suddenly occur with any hormone altering change, like having a baby, or peri-menopause.

But if I may, I'd like to explain what it feels like....for me anyway.(which is pretty much the same as everyone elses stories on the PMDD forums)

Firstly it's regular, like clockwork. It doesn't just happen some months, it happens EVERY month. During ovulation I feel great, but over the next few days I decline, and the best way to describe it is MAJOR hyper-sensitivity to everything in my environment....and each day it gets increasingly worse, until just before my period arrives.

Noise sets me off big-time (and kids make lots of noise), I can't bare to be touched. I cringe when my kids try to give me a cuddle, and if they touch my head, I snap.
Even lots of movement (kids running around) makes me feel like I'm going to explode. I become unbelieveably impatient and extremely hostile, irrational, and agitated.
I yell at hubby and kids constantly- everything they do annoys me... The very things I love about them during the first two weeks of my cycle, when I'm the real me.

I also become more paranoid during my PMDD phase. Not just in waking life, even in dreams. I feel like people are out to hurt me, emotionally.
I have lost friendships, r/ships, jobs, and almost my life because of PMDD- me being the one to shut everyone out.

I become obsessed with things, or any slight, and cannot let things go.

When my hubby had one of his psych appts a while back, he mentioned how tough it is at home for those two weeks every month. The docs response was "Oh, that PMDD stuff is all made up by American psychiatrists".
He may have a degree, but hubby lives with me and knows how real this is.

As soon as it hits, I give hubby the 'cyclone approaching' warning but he doesn't need it. He can see the difference as it's happening. It's impossible to miss.

I can hide it to a degree to outsiders, for very short periods of time, like going to drop off DD at school, and keeping it together for appearances sake. But to the other mums at the school who I am close with, they can see it in my face even when I'm trying to hide it.

Doctors often rx an anti depressant which can help. And the the pill or other hormones....but they generally make it worse because it stems from a hormonal sensitivity.

All I can say is that I am extremely grateful that I have a hubby who cares enough to support me, and put up with me during these times, and who wants to be involved in my mental health plan for our kids, himself and me.

I think it's terribly sad for Kyron and baby K, that their Daddy doesn't appear to have been as supportive and involved in Terri's mental health, as my hubby is.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but it's possible that PPD evolved into PMDD, and played a role in this case. Even if it didn't, the symptoms are similar.

ETA: Often we see clinically women who present for the first time with PMDD after the birth of a child. We don’t quite understand why that happens, but that is a typical presentation. In this population this period of major depression is very common and we also know that women with PMDD.


FWIW , Pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder has successfully been used as a murder defense in the US in the past.

JMO and personal experience.

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 08:55 PM
All that maybe plus it may be that every relationship is different and some couples just never get into it. It's just never a part of the relationship very much. If someone's very ill yeah but otherwise daily monitoring no. Maybe some people don't mind each other that well when it comes to those sorts of things. Maybe she wasn't that ill and maybe if she had been he might have made an issue of it. Didn't he sort of elude to that? I know I read somewhere that he said she wasn't always forthright but he never thought it would be anything so dramatic; my paraphrase.


"She has a deceitful side that I have experienced several times," says Kaine. "As far as going to extremes with the plot, I didn't see that coming at all."
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20400681,00.html

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 09:02 PM
Hi there Pensfan! I didn't see reports of Terri being disorganized in her thinking or any evidence that she was out of touch with reality. What I do know is that Terri was diagnosed with PPD and if not treated properly PPD can become a depression with psychotic features.

We know from Kaine that Terri was diagnosed with PPD. If we knew what medications she was on we would know if psychosis was a problem. Meds such as Risperdal would give us insight as to how serious her PPD was. Not seeing psychosis, suicidal and homicidal ideation can often mean good control with medication. If the meds are stopped too soon, we will see symptoms return, I see it over and over.

The only way that psychosis (PPP) would have played a part at 18 months post partum is if Terri was being treated and fell of her med regimen. Manual of Mental Disorders: DSM-IV-TR. is vague regarding PPP and we don't know if she was seeing a doctor who used DSM rather than his/her own experience. As time goes by, and postpartum is no longer obvious, a diagnose of major depression with psychotic features could be given.

We don't know if physical illnesses such as hypothyroidism was ruled out but we can all hope she was treated properly.

The technicalities of diagnosing often get in the way of good treatment moo mho

Kaine didn't elaborate on whether Terri's doc gave her Estrodial patches or antidepressants. He also didn't explain if the doc determined Terri didn't need further treatment or if Terri stopped her treatment without consulting her doc.

Woman are not given an antipsychotic that can cause tardive dyskinesia when they have PPD. I cannot see any doc prescribing any PPP patient Risperdol without admitting her first. Kaine didn't suggest that Terri's "disorder" required hospitalization.

PPP normally occurs within the first month post delivery. It is EXTREMELY rare occuring in < than 0.1% of women.

Hypothyroidism might cause symptoms of depression, but psychosis (mania) is more likely found in hYperthyroidism.

You are correct about Major Depression with psychotic features being a more likely diagnosis for someone 18 months post delivery.

Yes...in EXTREMELY rare cases PPD can turn into PPP within the first few months after delivery....not 18 months. Yes, if PPD is not treated it can progress BUT anyone that has ever been around a psychotic person can identify that this person is psychotic VERY quickly. Psychotic people cannot hide their psychosis for weeks and certainly not for months when they are living with other mentally health individuals.

Terri's behavior, that occured when she returned home from supposedly running errands on june 4th, shows that she was not psychotic. She was on Facebook joking, oriented to reality, "poking" males, and joking around while typing "LMAO".....these are not indicative of psychosis. If she had been on the internet posting about the aliens that live in her brain or how the CIA is camped out in her bathroom, then we could worry that she was perhaps psychotic.

wondering1
07-09-2010, 09:02 PM
The bolded portion is what really confuses me. Why on earth would she think that if Kryon went missing, SHE would get all of the attention? What made her think that KH and DY would feel sorry for her? I don't get how she thought they wouldn't be furious at her and not think she was involved. She must be living some kind of deluded fantasy life to think that if Kyron was gone, somehow she would be more important than him. That makes no sense to me. These people are not the A's, they are not going to go into denial mode and protect her. And if there really was tension in and between the homes, she is nuts for making Kyron disappear in the first place. Talk about going from the frying pan into the fire.

Maybe for the same reasons that some people are looking kinda funny at DY. Maybe TH's convinced herself of that same storyline.

DY got sick, TH took care of Kyron. DY came back, Kaine decided he wanted to keep Kyron, even though TH didn't (or at least she was willing to give him back to DY). So, for the past 5 years, TH has gotten all the HARD WORK -- the school, the day-to-day, the projects, the meals, the laundry, the medical or behavior issues (if there are any), schlepping back and forth for the custody swap, giving up her body building, etc., etc. While DY gets the fun stuff -- the weekends.

And she's done an AMAZING job. Look how she volunteers at the school, takes the kids on all kinds of trips and fun outings, blah, blah, blah, even with a infant, then toddler. In her mind she may believe that SHE is the one who deserves the sympathy to which Kyron's *mother* is entitled. Maybe it never occurred to her that she wouldn't be the one everyone was fawning all over with pity and sympathy and concern. Just speculating, obviously

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 09:08 PM
The bolded portion is what really confuses me. Why on earth would she think that if Kryon went missing, SHE would get all of the attention? What made her think that KH and DY would feel sorry for her? I don't get how she thought they wouldn't be furious at her and not think she was involved. She must be living some kind of deluded fantasy life to think that if Kyron was gone, somehow she would be more important than him. That makes no sense to me. These people are not the A's, they are not going to go into denial mode and protect her. And if there really was tension in and between the homes, she is nuts for making Kyron disappear in the first place. Talk about going from the frying pan into the fire.

I'm sorry to have confused you, I must have expressed myself badly if I gave the impression of trying to say that she thought she would get all the attention, become more important to Kyron's parents or that she expected them to protect her no matter what, because it was not what I meant at all.

It was just a comment on the discussion about how her body language did not seem to project real concern for Kyron's parents and what it could mean. Just an observation that if you were concerned about how a certain person feels then you might not choose to kidnap or kill their child in the first place because it would of course make them miserable and you'd tend to avoid that if you care about how they feel.

If she deliberately planned to hurt him she would probably have had some kind of selfish motivation and it would be consistent to continue to show self-centered behavior.

It may also protect the perp's sense of self if there are some feelings of remorse, shame and regret because focusing on oneself keeps the focus out of the others and lets you ignore or minimize in your mind the pain that you caused them.

christee
07-09-2010, 09:11 PM
Sorry if this has been mentioned already but if TH was dealing with PPD, and she plotted to have her husband killed and had already done something to Kyron (or had also hired someone else), would it be beyond the realm of possibility that she was planning on doing something to the baby and herself? In her depressed state she'd be of the mentality that if she killed herself she was going to take her family with her but didn't have the nerve to do it herself...
IDK...just a thought

Amster
07-09-2010, 09:14 PM
There is absolutely NO evidence that Kaine wasn't supportive and involved when Terri supposedly had PPD....NONE! So, he doesn't recall the name of whatever pill she was given or when she stopped taking it. What?? She's not a child! IF Terri had anything to do with Kyron disappearing, she is responsible for that....not Kaine, not Desiree, not the landscaper. IF Terri is innocent and not involved, then whomever took Kyron is responsible for it. Why does everyone else have to be dragged into something done by somebody else. Makes no sense to me.

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 09:28 PM
IMO, Kaine made the comment about Terri’s PPD because he is grieving the loss of his child and blaming himself. During the process of grief, individuals can blame themselves for things that they did or didn’t do. Grieving people can feel guilty for not “somehow” preventing the death of a loved one even if it is illogical to do so. Kaine is searching for answers.Today he has grasped Terri’s depression and he is using it to “beat himself up.” He is thinking that he should have known Terri could kill Kyron. because she was treated for depression. This is just illogical. Terri was not psychotic in the days before Ky’s disappearance or on the day of June 4th. Kaine’s therapist and friends need to repeatedly reinforce to him that he is not responsible. Terri was rational and made her own very bad choices on that day.

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 09:36 PM
I believe most people who decide to take their family with them when they commit suicide tend to kill them all pretty much the same time or the same day, not one at a time, and if they plan to be dead soon themselves there is no real need to hide the bodies.

eyes4crime
07-09-2010, 09:37 PM
Psychotic symptoms are behaviors that show that the individual is NOT in touch with reality. The symptoms can include delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, extreme mania, and etc... To be diagnosed as psychotic, an individual has to be unable to meet their daily activities/life demands and be out-of-touch with reality. Kaine and THs mom would clearly know if TH was psychotic. TH would have been unable to take Kyron to school that morning and act appropriately around others. Members of Terri's and Kaine's gym would also be able to tell if TH was psychotic.

TH was not psychotic. She made many rational and organized decisions that day. She fed her children breakfast, took Kyron to the science fair, supposedly ran errands, posted on the internet, talked with her rational husband, bus driver, teachers, and LE that day. No one stated that TH was disoriented and was acting paranoid, delusional, talking to voices in her head, and etc.... She was not psychotic and there are many witnesses to her non-psychotic/sane behavior.

You're right, Terri does not look actively psychotic. We simply don't know if Terri is still on medications!!! The right ones, along with therapy and support, can return a person back to previous functioning. Would she relapse if meds are stopped? As blood levels drop, all kinds of symptoms can emerge and sometimes the picture isn't pretty. We have no idea if Terri continues to be on her medication. For all we know she went off of them a year ago. Maybe she never took them to begin with.

I can only go on what we have been told by Kaine: Terri was diagnosed with PPD. Terri was on medication, but he couldn't remember which ones. He was told to watch her for 6 months. We don't know which six months, but apparently Kaine thought she was okay. He thought maybe she could be hiding symptoms as recently as the last month or two. That's all I know about Terri. moo

One thing I do know: There are women diagnosed with PPD and/or PPP who continue treatment well into their second year. A drug free trial did not work out, symptoms returned. If a woman and her doctor want to continue to call it PPD/PPP rather than major depression with psychotic features, so be it. moo

glorybug
07-09-2010, 09:51 PM
Thank you. It is NOT fact until her doctors say it is. I'm really going to stop following this case if it isn't going to be about finding Kyron.

I'm not a gossiper, I don't like slander, and this isn't some imaginary case. There is a boy that needs to be found, and as far as I can tell, not one of the parents is doing anything to achieve that.

Find the boy first and save all the ugly, ugly gossip for the trial.

Untill we hear a Drs diagnosis of her not just Kaines opinion.I don't think it's really fair to her to assume what is going on.It's not fact.

jashrema
07-09-2010, 09:59 PM
Frankly, I'm a little surprised it took this long for someone to bring up PPD. The daughter is 18 months now? I for one am not buying that 18 months later her PPD got "the best of her" and she did something to Kyron. THAT would be psychotic, and we know she isn't that.
I'm a nurse, and I have Never seen PPD directed towards a sibling of the child that was born. The PPD affects the mother and the child that was just born! Not a 7 year old sibling! She seemed to bond quite well with her baby and was certainly an attentive and involved mother.
I know I'm armchair diagnosing, but I do not consider her to have PPP either. People can barely function with that!
I personally think it was just the same thing it's been since the beginning of time. If she is guilty, it's because of revenge...to hurt someone the worst, you hurt their child, or the "cry for attention", she thought if Kyron went missing it would bring her and Kaine closer together, or she would become the center of attention as she was the last one to see him. Then the WHOLE world would know what a long-suffering, great mom she was/is.
I totally think she is deranged and evil if she did do it, but I'm not buying the PPD defense if that comes to pass.

butwhatif?
07-09-2010, 10:03 PM
I'm interested in the part of the interview where DY says that TH has been lying for the last 7 years that she's known her.

What makes her say something so broad? Did she gradually realize this about Terri, or is it a "hindsight" revelation because things are becoming more clear in her mind about Terri's behavior.

And, if this is the case, PPD would not be the cause of odd/deceiving behavior for all that time.

BBM

Often there is already and underlying illness that may or may not have been diagnosed previously.
Because of my history of depression, anxiety and PMDD, after my first daughter was born the nurses sat down with hubby and I to explain that I was at an increased risk of getting PPD.

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 10:05 PM
You're right, Terri does not look actively psychotic. We simply don't know if Terri is still on medications!!! The right ones, along with therapy and support, can return a person back to previous functioning. Would she relapse if meds are stopped? As blood levels drop, all kinds of symptoms can emerge and sometimes the picture isn't pretty. We have no idea if Terri continues to be on her medication. For all we know she went off of them a year ago. Maybe she never took them to begin with.

I can only go on what we have been told by Kaine: Terri was diagnosed with PPD. Terri was on medication, but he couldn't remember which ones. He was told to watch her for 6 months. We don't know which six months, but apparently Kaine thought she was okay. He thought maybe she could be hiding symptoms as recently as the last month or two. That's all I know about Terri. moo

One thing I do know: There are women diagnosed with PPD and/or PPP who continue treatment well into their second year. A drug free trial did not work out, symptoms returned. If a woman and her doctor want to continue to call it PPD/PPP rather than major depression with psychotic features, so be it. moo
You are correct in stating that we don't know if Terri was on meds June 4th.
It is sad that anyone is depressed, but in Terri's case, it doesn't provide her with an excuse to commit a homicide. Over NINE percent of the US population is depressed at any time. This equals 28 million people in the USA that are clinically depressed. Being depressed is clearly not an excuse for killing a child. Not being on antidepressants is also not an excuse for killing a child.

IMO, Kaine is experiencing grief and blaming himself. He has grasped on to the fact that 1 1/2 years ago, Terri was depressed. He is "beating himself up" with this thinking that somehow he could have prevented Ky's disappearance. Many people have illogical guilt while grieving. In his grieving, sleep-deprived state, Kaine's statement does not prove that Terri had severe depression (1 1/2 years ago). It does prove that Kaine is feeling guilty and this frequently happens to parents who have lost a child. It is illogical, but the feeling of guilty occurs because parents falsely believe they should be able to protect their children from anything and everything.

Noway
07-09-2010, 10:11 PM
If Terri is on mood-altering medication, would LE have attempted to give her a polygraph? And would the medication have affected the results?

(OT ... When I get offline, I'm going to my husband's prescription meds and writing down the names and doses and when subscribed. I'll do the same for my one medication. Because while I think it is a fabulous idea to have such a list in case one goes to the hospital unexpectedly, we were not prepared for such an event. Thank you to whoever it was who mentioned having such a list. :))

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 10:23 PM
One thing I do know: There are women diagnosed with PPD and/or PPP who continue treatment well into their second year. A drug free trial did not work out, symptoms returned. If a woman and her doctor want to continue to call it PPD/PPP rather than major depression with psychotic features, so be it. moo
Yes, there are women that are on antidepressants well into their second year post delivery. Realize that almost sixteen million American women are clinically depressed. The women on antidepressants into their second year postpartum may have been clinically depressed regardless of their obstetrical history. Some of these women will be on antidepressants for decades. Notice that most of the risk factors for postpartum depression include having a personal history or family history of depression or Bipolar Disorder (which includes having periods of depression).

butwhatif?
07-09-2010, 10:24 PM
PPD and PPP are very different-Post Partum Depression is unlikely to cause her to harm Kyron 19 months after the birth of her child. Post Partum Psychosis is a viable defense, but certainly not 19 months after the birth of a child.

I think there is a lack of understanding regarding this...JMO. Intractable Depression is unlikely to cause her to plot to disappear her step son so sucessfully that he cannot be found by the FBI. Not buying it. Sorry.

This is a good article to check out. ( much more at link)
Bolding is mine.

http://www.obgyn.net/femalepatient/femalepatient.asp?page=leopold

At the other end of the spectrum is the truly devastating puerperal psychosis. A comparatively rare disease, it complicates only 0.1% to 0.2% of deliveries--but this is 12 to 14.5 times the prenatal incidence of psychosis.6,9 Symptoms generally present within the first 4 weeks postpartum, when the risk of hospitalization is 22 times greater, but can manifest up to 90 days after delivery.
A second, smaller, peak in incidence is evident at 18 to 24 months.

Patients suffering from puerperal psychosis are severely impaired, suffering from hallucinations and delusions that frequently focus on the infant dying or being divine or demonic. These hallucinations often command the patient to hurt herself or others, placing these mothers at the highest risk for committing infanticide and/or suicide. Most of these patients suffer from affective disorders (primarily bipolar illness), but schizophrenia and even organic brain syndromes are also diagnosed.

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 10:26 PM
This is a good article to check out. ( much more at link)
Bolding is mine.

http://www.obgyn.net/femalepatient/femalepatient.asp?page=leopold
^Indeed. Read this from your statement:
Patients suffering from puerperal psychosis are SEVERELY impaired, suffering from hallucinations and delusions.

TH was not severely impaired on June 4th. Her behavior was not considered to be abnormal. She talked with teachers, the principle, her husband, internet friends, the bus driver, and LE and no one saw any psychotic behavior. Her behavior was organized and rational.

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 10:27 PM
Medicines may influence the polygraph responses if they have an effect on the anxiety and stress levels or the physiological changes that it measures, such as blood pressure and heart rate.

Although the latest report is that she walked out before they even hooked her up...

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 10:32 PM
It is illogical, but the feeling of guilty occurs because parents falsely believe they should be able to protect their children from anything and everything.

Sadly, most of us are not mind readers.

mayelf
07-09-2010, 10:47 PM
I knew a woman who had a serious case of PPD. I wonder if I could get her to join to describe what it was like.

It was intense because she was trying to show us things that proved vampires existed. She was almost ready to give my partner, at the time, her house. She just wanted to take her husband and baby and go someplace but no one knew where. He just followed along to protect her and his child. I'm not sure how long they left their house, wandering the streets with the baby. I am not sure how much she still believes so I don't want to say too much or any of the details. But it was intense to watch and hear what she believed. She is incredibly intelligent.

Please if anyone reading knows who this lady is, please refrain from saying any details about the family. I don't wish any ill on them.

I don't know if that helps anyone with ideas about this case.

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 10:58 PM
Sadly, most of us are not mind readers.
Mind reader??? There are hundreds of informative articles that address parental grief and their feelings of guilt.
http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/FL_244.pdf
http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/parentalgrief.html
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FOkmpML5UvYJ:www.u.arizona.edu/~dusana/psyc456/notes/CH7.ppt+parental+grief+site:.edu&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari
http://helpguide.org/mental/grief_loss.htm

Donjeta
07-09-2010, 11:00 PM
Yes, guilt that is often unnecessary because they're not mind readers and can't be expected to be able to predict everything. KH is getting some flack because he did not predict this and could not prevent it but it may be unreasonable to expect it IMO. Not everybody is a psychiatrist or a mind reader and able to know what goes on behind other people's facades.

Edit: I was agreeing with you, not disagreeing. Just goes to show that we're not mind readers I suppose...

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 11:00 PM
I knew a woman who had a serious case of PPD. I wonder if I could get her to join to describe what it was like.

It was intense because she was trying to show us things that proved vampires existed. She was almost ready to give my partner, at the time, her house. She just wanted to take her husband and baby and go someplace but no one knew where. He just followed along to protect her and his child. I'm not sure how long they left their house, wandering the streets with the baby. I am not sure how much she still believes so I don't want to say too much or any of the details. But it was intense to watch and hear what she believed. She is incredibly intelligent.

Please if anyone reading knows who this lady is, please refrain from saying any details about the family. I don't wish any ill on them.

I don't know if that helps anyone with ideas about this case.

This symptoms fit more with Postpartum Psychosis (PPP) which is even more rare that PPD. (I hope your friend is now healthy. :) )

Tuffy
07-09-2010, 11:02 PM
No way -- doesn't even sound like a marriage. My husband has a list of every medication/dosage/time taken, etc, along with the dr. name. Just in case I have to go to the hospital. This is especially important for those being treated for diabetes and an irregular heart beat. Ialso keep a copy in my wallet.

If she was on meds for over a year (or thereabouts), how does he NOT know? He never picked up a script? Someone suffering from PPD should always be monitored even to make sure the meds are being taken correctly.

Ughhh....

Mel

Sorry Mel, I just think you're expecting that if KH is not like your husband, then it doesn't even sound like a marriage! I have a bit of a different perspective.

My husband has picked up prescriptions for me, and he's a good husband. If I went and asked him what the name of my prescriptions are, he would probably say, "your blood pressure medicine" and "your thyroid medicine."

He doesn't know the actual names of them. Actually if I had to pronounce the name of my blood pressure medicine, I would probably fail. :D Not knowing these things doesn't say anything about his character or the quality of our marriage.

Pensfan
07-09-2010, 11:06 PM
Yes, guilt that is often unnecessary because they're not mind readers and can't be expected to be able to predict everything.
Thanks for explaining.
Yeah...it is a very mentally stressful job to be a parent. (May God bless my mom whom I stressed out for several decades.)

cluciano63
07-09-2010, 11:07 PM
Can a psychotic fake being "normal?" Can they speak normally and converse, i.e. while having raving mad thoughts at same time? There is so much about mental illness that is still unknown and each case seems to be different.

I have a mentally ill brother, who says that voices have been in his head for years, but they only remind me of his obsessions, i.e. how many times to scrub his hands, etc....but he says they repeat and repeat endlessly, yet he can carry on a conversation and you would not know he is going through that. Not that he carries on conversations with anyone outside a very few family members.

butwhatif?
07-09-2010, 11:13 PM
K & D on the CBS Early Show.


They are not denying someone else maybe involved. In fact they are hoping someone else is because that would mean Kyron is being taken care of.

K - Were not having money problems.
K to the ? "Were either of you having an affair?" - K - Not that I am aware of.

D says her first thought when she got the phone call that Kyron went missing from Terri - You better not have done anything to my son.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6661870n&tag=related;photovideo

This bothers me. The exact quote was " I thought: she better not have done anything to my son".

It implies to me that she had reason to believe Terri could have endangered her child. Something had to have happened prior to make her think this. So why, why, why did DY not try to get custody of Kyron, or get him away from Terri?
I know hindsight is 20/20....but still. And it just doesn't sound like hindsight- more like forethought.

I'm not bashing the parents, because we still don't know all the details.

Maybe DY did try, and that was the final straw for Terri.

MOO