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View Full Version : Is TH Responsible in any way for the Disappearance of Kyron? **NO DISCUSSION**



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JBean
07-14-2010, 12:41 PM
Please vote in the poll and then LIST your reason if you would like. No discussion LIST ONLY.

This is just in your opinion of course.

debs
07-14-2010, 12:53 PM
(p.s., I found this a difficult vote to cast because of the "in any way", since ultimately every adult in Kyron's life played a role in his disappearance, if only to the level of not reading the signs, sensing something off, or generally just passing over the niggling feelings they had. [No, I am not blaming people] But I do not believe Terri herself caused Kyron's disappearance. I do, however, feel she has knowledge of what happened.)

A_Closer_Look
07-14-2010, 01:00 PM
I think TH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance because:

1) She was the last known adult to see him.
2) She allegedly was untruthful about her whereabouts that morning.
3) I thought her behavior was odd at the first press conference.
4) She allegedly tried to have her husband murdered.
5) She showed the sealed RO to her new lover.
6) Her new lover took photos of the RO.
7) Her new lover googled Kaine's new address.
8) She asked her new lover to lie to her lawyer about her being at his home.
9) She sent explicit pics of herself to this new lover, which only interests me due to LE telling Kaine that this is very similar behavior to what she did with the landscaper she allegedly attempted to hire to kill Kaine.
10) All other immediate family adults (KH, TY, DY) seem to believe without doubt that TH is responsible, and they are being supplied info from LE.
11) I believe LE believes that TH is responsible for Kyron's going missing, and are just keeping it close to their vest for now, as they work on proving it beyond reasonable doubt, and finding Kyron. But I strongly believe that DY, TY and KH have all been helped along in their opinions by information that is leaked to them by LE, even though LE would never admit that at this time.

ETA 12) A judge saw enough to issue the RO in the first place, and remove baby K from her custody, which I don't think was done without sufficient cause for alarm.

CDB
07-14-2010, 01:06 PM
I believe the the actions exhibited by TMH are evidence that she is either having a breakdown or was unstable to begin with. In my mind this is similar to the incredible melt down that the "innocent" OJ suffered dealing with the guilt he was hiding. JMO

Kimster
07-14-2010, 01:10 PM
What put me over the edge was her starting up the sexting after KH and her daughter moved out. To me that is typical psychopathic behavior. It is saying to me that she has moved on and she feels she has her problems behind her. These are the types of people that most often commit crimes against children, IMO.

ETA: Please note that this is my opinion and not the stance of Websleuths. :wink:

shorty42404
07-14-2010, 01:12 PM
I still suspect Kaine AND Terri AND Mr. Cook... so with that, I chose "no clue" since I can't pick just one that I think could possibly be involved.

Mandy113
07-14-2010, 01:17 PM
I had to vote as "no clue" myself. TH does seem the most likely suspect. However, this case has twisted & turned so many different ways (often with little LE confirmation) ... I have trouble keeping track of what I do know for sure. For me, I'll know when the case is presented against whoever ends up being arrested for this crime.

azmama
07-14-2010, 01:22 PM
I voted yes, I don't necessarily think it was planned (just can't wrap my brain around that yet), but her cavalier "hitting the gym" the day before she planned to go less than a week after little Kyron went missing if just off, I do not believe in any explanation that planning to go and work out a day ahead of time, when your child is missing makes one iota of sense.

Add to that all of the insane details that have come out since, and I am convinced.


IMOO of course.

angelmom
07-14-2010, 01:24 PM
No clue. I am all over the map on this one.

Mylou
07-14-2010, 01:35 PM
I picked no clue, as I can't go by what others believe with no facts or no evidence.

GrainneDhu
07-14-2010, 01:37 PM
No clue.

It does not look good for TMH but when I get down to it, the vast majority of the evidence against is in the form of allegations, not proven facts. Well, anyone can allege anything and they often do, particularly in highly emotional situations.

For TMH as perp:

1) last known person to see Kyron
2) failed two polys
3) no good explanation of her movements that day
4) MFH plot

Against TMH as perp:

1) Kyron's deskmate places Kyron at the school after TMH left
2) Polygraphs are far from reliable
3) Trauma can impair memory in weird ways
4) No arrest yet in MFH plot; no real info about witness to judge his credibility

Beatrice
07-14-2010, 01:38 PM
It's as though Terri is an "unknown person"...
Do they really know who she is?

She came in as a babysitter & stayed as a lover.

Seven years later, she may be someone else's lover...& not a babysitter.

As obvious as it all is...(guilt) I'm very confused by her.
What did she expect by this all? Attention?

MBLover
07-14-2010, 01:40 PM
While TH would appear to be the most likely suspect...I still am not 100% convinced. Parts appear planned...other parts don't. If she's THAT clever to stage some kind of abduction out of a school...but yet not clever enough to be concerned with covering up cell phone pings and transactions that can be linked to her...

To me either that points to Kyron being handed off...or the possibility that she didn't do this. This is JMHO...and I know it's a very unpopular one...

However, I don't believe that not remembering your exact whereabouts down to the minute or getting the order of the places wrong that one visited, or sexting, or hiring a lawyer determines guilt.

She may very well be guilty but it hasn't been proven to me...at least not yet.

Truth Prevails
07-14-2010, 01:46 PM
I voted "yes" because of her behavior since Kyron has been missing. The failed polys, and the sexting; also the interview on The Today show this morning when TY states "I absolutely believe that TH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance." And DY explaining about the "red flags". Even TH's emerging "pattern of behavior", i.e. entering a relationship with a male in order to have them "help" her.

There just seems to be so many things here. It's hard to keep giving her the benefit of the doubt.

BeanE
07-14-2010, 01:51 PM
After watching multiple videos of Kaine, he seems straightforward to me. I believe him that he was at work at the time of Kyron's disappearance. He's ruled out for me. I believe him that Terri was uncooperative with three polygraphs. Since Terri was the last known person to see Kyron before he disappeared, being uncooperative with three polys makes her the primary suspect to me. There is no information available yet that convinces me she was involved in Kyron's disappearance. Something going wrong with one poly would not convince me. Even two *may* not convince me. But three is just too much.

I'm not sure yet whether Terri acted alone. If she did not, I don't believe Kaine participated or had any knowledge.

I don't yet what I think Terri did with Kyron, whether she hid him, had him abducted in some way/for some means, or whether she harmed him.

Right now, I'm thinking she didn't harm him for two reasons. One that she was reported to be happy and excited that morning, just prior to Kyron's disappearance, and two because of the sexting and graphic sexual pictures so soon afterwards. That level of sort of manic happiness and excitement (I don't mean sexual excitement) in someone about to murder and who had just murdered a child indicates a sociopathy, the level of which I can only parallel to someone like Joseph Duncan. I can't yet let my mind go there, to where this woman is that evil. It makes me physically nauseous for poor Kyron to even attempt to do so.

I am hoping she is evil and/or sick, that she arranged some sort of abduction or hiding of Kyron, and that he is alive and well. I fear, though, that she did harm him.

ETA: I forgot to say I voted 'Yes'. :)

Aedrys
07-14-2010, 01:59 PM
I absolutely think she did this. She's an older Casey Anthony and Joran Van der Sloot all rolled into one. There's no concrete proof, but I can't get past her very obvious lack of concern for her own biological children and her acting like she's in high school instead of being a mature adult. This woman has mental and emotional problems. She has made victims of Kaine and Desiree, all to satisfy some insane justification to herself. I don't know what that is yet, and she may never tell us, but it's obvious she wants to move on from Kyron like he never existed. And she's treating her own children the same way thus far. I've had a bad feeling about her from the beginning and it's only gotten worse over time. She did this and she's trying hard to get away with it. Well, guess what TH, karma's a b**** and will catch up with you at some point.

cluciano63
07-14-2010, 02:11 PM
I have not changed my mind from the start, when I thought that either Terri did something in anger (not planned) or someone totally random and unknown to all slipped in and took Kyron. So I had to choose "no clue" as both still hold up for me as possibilities.

Black Frost
07-14-2010, 02:15 PM
I have no doubt TH is responsible for this child's disappearance. My reasons for feeling this way are as follows: From the earliest description of the circumstances surrounding his disappearance I felt TH was responsible. Soon thereafter, her own words and actions only confirmed my initial feelings. I anticipated the breakdown of the Horman marriage and was only surprised by how long Kaine was able to keep his game face before he officially left. At this time, I didn't have a clue what specifics on TH the family and LE had been forced to withhold, but I expected we were in for the crazy. And we got it. In spades. And finally, I've read no rational expression, anywhere, that suggests another person is responsible for this crime.

ami
07-14-2010, 02:22 PM
I think she's responsible, though I have no clue what his fate has been, poor child. Watching Kaine, TY and DY, likeable or not, they all come across as grieving, angry parents and step-parents. TH is the only one who does not. Her behavior directly after the loss of her step-son and biological daughter and husband is so skewed from normal behavior, I personally suspect she isn't psychologically "normal".

That leaves me with a psychologically troubled woman being the last person in the presence of a missing child. So yes, I suspect her. :(

nyvictoria
07-14-2010, 02:28 PM
I think she's responsible, though I have no clue what his fate has been, poor child. Watching Kaine, TY and DY, likeable or not, they all come across as grieving, angry parents and step-parents. TH is the only one who does not. Her behavior directly after the loss of her step-son and biological daughter and husband is so skewed from normal behavior, I personally suspect she isn't psychologically "normal".

That leaves me with a psychologically troubled woman being the last person in the presence of a missing child. So yes, I suspect her. :(

I agree, ami. It was the sexting that toppled me off the fence.

densme
07-14-2010, 02:31 PM
I say yes because,she is hiding something she doesnt want to tell and it is more than just affairs. jmo

cypress
07-14-2010, 02:32 PM
No clue...

eyes4crime
07-14-2010, 02:39 PM
I put "no clue'. Speculation, innuendo, gossip, media frenzy, does not substantiate guilt, especially for murder. This woman is being ripped apart every which way without so much as a single clue, body, crime scene, evidence, or being named a POI.

I feel as though I'm standing by watching the slow destruction of a human being, the hate being thrown her way is disgusting. Let's see some evidence! moo

froginTtown
07-14-2010, 02:49 PM
I voted guilty, I think she planned this in advance and its an abduction/kidnapping with an accomplice.... and I agree with DY and TY that they need to let him go... :praying: :praying:

grayjay
07-14-2010, 02:52 PM
Knowing full well there's a risk that by voting yes I'm contributing to more stress on her which she doesn't deserve, I just want to shake her and get her to speak from her heart about Kyron's disappearance. So I'm voting yes.

nursebeeme
07-14-2010, 02:52 PM
I voted yes!

Heck yeah she is involved imhoo!

How many more dots need connected?? I think finding Kyron is the last dot. moo

shelbar53
07-14-2010, 03:10 PM
I think TH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance because:

1) She was the last known adult to see him.
2) She allegedly was untruthful about her whereabouts that morning.
3) I thought her behavior was odd at the first press conference.
4) She allegedly tried to have her husband murdered.
5) She showed the sealed RO to her new lover.
6) Her new lover took photos of the RO.
7) Her new lover googled Kaine's new address.
8) She asked her new lover to lie to her lawyer about her being at his home.
9) She sent explicit pics of herself to this new lover, which only interests me due to LE telling Kaine that this is very similar behavior to what she did with the landscaper she allegedly attempted to hire to kill Kaine.
10) All other immediate family adults (KH, TY, DY) seem to believe without doubt that TH is responsible, and they are being supplied info from LE.
11) I believe LE believes that TH is responsible for Kyron's going missing, and are just keeping it close to their vest for now, as they work on proving it beyond reasonable doubt, and finding Kyron. But I strongly believe that DY, TY and KH have all been helped along in their opinions by information that is leaked to them by LE, even though LE would never admit that at this time.

ETA 12) A judge saw enough to issue the RO in the first place, and remove baby K from her custody, which I don't think was done without sufficient cause for alarm.

In addition to the above:
1. she drove the truck to school
2. she posted the school pic on FB same afternoon
3. wasn't truthfull in lie detector tests
4. never made public plea, actually never said a spoken word
5. hitting the gym
6. families feeling regarding her
7. her own parents never spoken in her defense

Cher352
07-14-2010, 03:19 PM
Choose No Clue as that was the only option besides Yes or No.

LindseyLou
07-14-2010, 03:35 PM
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. I voted "yes" because of the same reasons A_Closer_Look gave:


I think TH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance because:

1) She was the last known adult to see him.
2) She allegedly was untruthful about her whereabouts that morning.
3) I thought her behavior was odd at the first press conference.
4) She allegedly tried to have her husband murdered.
5) She showed the sealed RO to her new lover.
6) Her new lover took photos of the RO.
7) Her new lover googled Kaine's new address.
8) She asked her new lover to lie to her lawyer about her being at his home.
9) She sent explicit pics of herself to this new lover, which only interests me due to LE telling Kaine that this is very similar behavior to what she did with the landscaper she allegedly attempted to hire to kill Kaine.
10) All other immediate family adults (KH, TY, DY) seem to believe without doubt that TH is responsible, and they are being supplied info from LE.
11) I believe LE believes that TH is responsible for Kyron's going missing, and are just keeping it close to their vest for now, as they work on proving it beyond reasonable doubt, and finding Kyron. But I strongly believe that DY, TY and KH have all been helped along in their opinions by information that is leaked to them by LE, even though LE would never admit that at this time.

ETA 12) A judge saw enough to issue the RO in the first place, and remove baby K from her custody, which I don't think was done without sufficient cause for alarm.

nursebeeme
07-14-2010, 03:47 PM
quack quack!

smart blonde
07-14-2010, 03:48 PM
Is Terri responsible for the disappearance of Kyron?

Yes. I have felt this was from the very beginning, and everything I have read, and watched in the media, has only served to reinforce this opinion for me.

The very first time I watched the very first press conference, with all four parents, I just couldn't take my eyes off of Terri- her facial expressions just seemed so 'off', and so different from Desiree, Kaine, and Tony's.

~ As a matter of fact, a certain Sesame Street song kept running through my mind as I watched Terri .....
"One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong..."

(http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109308)

PoppyH
07-14-2010, 03:53 PM
I 100 and 10 % Believe she is responsible period

LadyL
07-14-2010, 04:00 PM
I voted yes.

One thing I've learned about myself through following cases is not to doubt my gut instinct and not to let a thousand crazy details cloud my mind.

My gut said yes in the beginning and it still does.

Emeralgem
07-14-2010, 04:03 PM
Is Terri responsible for the disappearance of Kyron?


YES...

BetteDavisEyes
07-14-2010, 04:08 PM
I feel that Terri is involved, but I think that someone else is part of the disappearance, too. I'm not ready to suggest that Terri did something horrible to Kyron. jmo

suzet
07-14-2010, 04:14 PM
I voted Terri is responsible for Kyron's disappearance. It was preplanned weeks/months in advance and she acted alone.

I have thought this (and posted it) since the very beginning, have never been confused about it, have never waivered in my belief, and everything I have seen and read since day 1 has only convinced me more and more in my belief that she is guilty, not that I needed any more convincing.

winterrose
07-14-2010, 04:17 PM
The day Kyron disappeared,Terri didn't stay and be a parent volunteer for the class as she was a regular volunteer in the school.She had the baby with her as she did many other times,so no important thing to keep her from staying.She played herself as the perfect mother putting Kyron in cub scouts,soccer,swimming classes and volunteering in classroom and in the community.

That was a special day for the school,one of the main events,it would have been one of her perfect days to show how perfect she was.A previous classroom photo,in November, of her daughter's birthday pic with the other students she took anyway with Kyron not even in the class,putting under the caption he was in the bathroom,I believe for future use.Making herself look like the perfect volunteer and Mom to other parents and the school,I believe so noone would possibly suspect her of any foul play.Sending her son off around the same time planning her husband's demise and then telling his Dad it was because of Kaine.I believe she planned and found someone to help her carry this out.

She also,I believe,deliberately confused the teacher with a doctor's appt,giving time for the get away and Kyron being marked absent.All her name captions for her fb pics,including her baby,had thier last names,except Kyron's and a number of those pics were from Desiree's photo album she tagged from D.Desiree said she lies,she walked out of her second poly and has failed at least two.And has started an affair to get her lover to help her,getting him to map Kaine's new address on his cellphone,which I believe would make him a suspect if something happened to Kaine.JMO

jnTexas
07-14-2010, 04:26 PM
Kaine has bugged me from the begining but once the last doc was released from his lawyer stating LE had given them a wealth of evidence. I do believe LE in my mind Le has cleared him. So yes I do believe Terri is responsible and I do think she acted alone.

SleuthyGal
07-14-2010, 04:33 PM
I may have suspicions but I have no proof and certainly do not know, so I voted accordingly.

SheRa
07-14-2010, 04:45 PM
I voted yes, because it just seems so incredibly unlikely that Kyron was snatched by a stranger from inside his elementary school. I know that's not the only non-TH scenario, and that there were indeed plenty of random people milling about the school that day, but it just seems astoundingly risky for someone to get a seven-year-old boy out of his own school.

There's also the lack of TH "out there" looking for Kyron. If your stepchild went missing, and especially if people were blaming you for it, wouldn't you be doing every single thing you possibly could, 24/7, in order to find the kid?

BlOnDe_GuRrL
07-14-2010, 04:55 PM
No clue.
But, I'm leaning more towards NO... I haven't seen any evidence that says she did anything to/with Kyron. However, the cell phone pings and failed polygraphs certainly make her look shady... but that could also be something completely different. It's hard to say.

The rumors circulating might make her appear to be a certain type of person, but I seriously don't think she is a kidnapper/murderer... not yet anyway.

Dee10
07-14-2010, 05:05 PM
As far as my opinion goes, it was a slam dunk "yes":

- LE not calling this an abduction etc. only missing/endangered told a whole lot. Status descriptions play a huge part in these kind of investigations (more often right than not).

- Last one to be seen with Ky

- Failing 3 polys, 1 at least in a specific area which leads me to believe she can be polyed for truthfulness.

- Truck towed twice

- Untruthfulness of where abouts due to pings & bank card

- Flyers with picture & truck

- RO granted & investigators shared "murder for hire" plot

- Oh yeah, and not to forget "very abnormal" behavior.

maystamper
07-14-2010, 05:05 PM
I voted yes.

She fits all the characteristics of a sociopath.
She is a scorned woman who wanted a new life and she was going to get it no matter what cost to anyone around her. It is all for her.

Trident
07-14-2010, 05:11 PM
No Clue

I've only heard part of the story and can't make an informed decision until I hear the rest. At this juncture I wonder if the tale is wagging the dog.

My opinion only

Curious Me
07-14-2010, 05:22 PM
I was told to connect the dots.

I did.

Yes, I think TMH is very involved in the disappearance of Kyron.

Baldwin
07-14-2010, 05:23 PM
No clue. Although Terri has had problems with her marriage, theirs nothing to directly suggest theat she had a bad relationship with kyron or that she would cause harm to him.

2goldfish
07-14-2010, 05:26 PM
No Clue

I've only heard part of the story and can't make an informed decision until I hear the rest. At this juncture I wonder if the tale is wagging the dog.

My opinion only


I voted no clue as well and this was exactly my reason.

j.r.k.
07-14-2010, 05:36 PM
I voted "no clue". I keep saying "It was her, why else would she act this way, do the things shes done?"
But then I REALLY look at the evidence all i see is a dysfunctional family, a step mom who likes to cheat and lie (she probly has done it the whole marriage), KH who I'm sure had no clue what his wife did while hes at work, and now that he knows he wants to hurt her HOWEVER he can. ( in press, taking baby, the RO, releasing info about sexting)
I don't know what evidence KH & DY have been told about or what extactly they know, but what they have released doesn't say to me TH did it, I see a woman who's a liar and cheat and has really bad ideas of whats appropret . This looks like a drop down dirty divorce at this point, to me.\
well this is just my opinon and that is why i voted that way

Calliope
07-14-2010, 05:36 PM
No clue, for all the reasons all the other 'no clues' gave above. I can't say definitely one way or the other at this point.

kytty
07-14-2010, 05:37 PM
Actions speak a million times louder than words and although Terri herself has not spoken, her actions since poor Kyron disappeared speak VOLUMES imho. I vote yes.

Astrella613
07-14-2010, 05:38 PM
No clue, need more evidence!

tehcloser
07-14-2010, 05:55 PM
I need a "heckifIknowmaybebutImaychangemymindagain" choice.....:blushing:

stmarysmead
07-14-2010, 06:02 PM
I have looked over and over at the video of Terri caressing her husband at the first press conference...looking up at him so affectionately, so beseechingly. Wasn't she adoring?

Yet, if the RO is to be believed, the police gave Kaine reason to understand this SAME cloying woman was attempting to have him murdered...cause his death...cease him to live.

The man she was hanging all over...arms lovingly around!

And now, there is apparently a neighbor who admits to participating in and has shown sexually explicit texts from Terri to himself in this very short period of time since that husband-adoring performance at the first Media conference.

I find this to be proof that the woman is deceptive....cunningly deceptive. Add to that that her story and her pings don't match and she has failed 2 Lie Detector tests...I voted "yes!"

CharlestonGal
07-14-2010, 06:11 PM
I think she's involved, yes, and I have thought so since the first few days. I don't know what she did to/with Kyron exactly, but I do think she did something and everything that has happened since I formed that opinion has just solidified it for me. My money is on TH all the way.

STEADFAST
07-14-2010, 06:58 PM
I was suspicious at the very beginning when the report was that TH said she left Kyron at school in the hallway near his class just at the time school was starting, but there was no one else reporting they saw him at that time. The hall would have been filled with parents and students hurrying to class, but no one said, "Yeah, I saw her wave goodbye to him." Also, there was no report that he had even been in class when it started.
But that was just a strong suspicion.
The three things that really sealed it for me were (1) a certain post on her fb page that I don't think we can discuss, (2) her shifty, nervous, darting-eyed, clingy behavior at the first presser, and (3) the fact that her whereabouts after she left the school cannot be confirmed.
I'm sure she's guilty. I don't have a doubt.

Beyond Belief
07-14-2010, 07:21 PM
I have no clue why I picked "no clue" because actually I am not clueless.:waitasec: However before I put myself in the same boat with "let's destroy this lady", I need some SOLID PROOF.:D

JBean
07-14-2010, 07:28 PM
Just a reminder this is a list only thread. What that means is do not respond to other posts, just state your opinion and that's it.
Quoting someone else and saying I agree instead of posting your own reasons is totally fine. We just don't enter into discussion on this thread or challenge another post.
Thanks all.

carbuff
07-14-2010, 07:33 PM
No clue. We have a lot of rumor, innuendo, and leaks from unnamed sources. No facts.

DairyGirl
07-14-2010, 07:39 PM
One fact that I believe we have is LE stating that TH was the last person seen with Kyron. That was enough to convince me that she is involved.

sophclown
07-14-2010, 07:50 PM
I voted no clue because of all of the drama that has arisen daily in this case!! The most important issue to me is to find Kyron!!!!

Schmerty_Jones
07-14-2010, 07:58 PM
1.Last person to see Kyron.
2.Unhappy with KH,tries a MFH!
3.Tries to kidnap babyK from KH at the gym.
4.Starts suggestive sexual relationship with MC.
5. Behavior at press conferences seem dishonest.
6.Cannot confirm where she was on the day Kyron disappears
7.Failed 2 polygraphs & walked out of 1.
8. Shows no genuine feelings for Kyron or his family.

I voted : TMH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance &/or death!!Yes.

helpfulcharlie
07-14-2010, 08:20 PM
Even without the leaks, the fact that her behavior is completely at odds with the rest of the family is enough to get my spidey-senses tingling. A united front, except for her. If it was just DY and TY vs TH, and KH was sticking by TH's side, I'd have a different feeling about it. He's convinced, and he knows her better than any of us. Therefore, I have to go with his gut feeling.

But the leaks don't do a lot to sway me back toward the fence. In fact, at this point I can barely see the fence. I will try to keep an open mind.

Have you ever had an experience that causes you to think, "maybe this is all just a dream, or a test or something." Some remote part of my mind is wishing this whole thing was just some grand "social psychology experiment" hoax, just to demonstrate to people that you, yes you, even you, have prejudices that color the way you perceive certain events. I wish there wasn't a little boy missing and possibly deceased, and countless lives disrupted and otherwise affected.

I feel like when it's all over and the perp is convicted, WE should all get some sort of compensation for having to be sucked into this drama.

Starry Night
07-14-2010, 08:23 PM
I voted 'no' because I just don't see how, if she DID have anything to do with his disappearance through intent or being involved with party(ies) who are responsible, then it would have come out by now. I can't remember a case where a person was under such boiling high pressure and scrutiny. In fact, to me, her silence is rather heroic. (getting ready for the barbs coming my way lol).
I feel for all the parties involved here. If in fact it turns out she is in any way responsible-then woe be unto her. And well-deserved woe.

TxLady2
07-14-2010, 08:24 PM
I usually don't do polls. Should have been a Maybe there.
I voted No clue because:
We have no real evidence that she took Kyron from the school and did anything with him. No one saw her leave with him, that we know of.
Everything else listed so far are merely allegations, not shown to be facts. Until there is proof, beyond a reasonable doubt... I just don't know.

Faenorwyn
07-14-2010, 08:25 PM
My opinion is yes, she is responsible. My reasons are:

1) She failed two lie detector tests
2) According to DY and KH, she has lied to investigators re: her whereabouts and she has "not been cooperating"
3) She has not spoken out in her own defense which IMO if she were truly innocent she would have done this immediately
4) She tried to hire someone to kill her husband, therefore she is capable of doing something equally as heinous to Kyron
5) She began an affair - which in itself does = guilt but the fact that she began the affair in the middle of an investigation which she is clearly the focus of, it shows that she just doesn't care. Furthermore, the "sexting" takes it over the top and should be the furthest thing from her mind if she was concerned with her step son's whereabouts at all.
6) DY and KH believe she is involved, 100%, and IMO a mother's instinct especially, is probably correct. DY seems to have questioned TH from the beginning (from the first phone call) which to me, speaks volumes.

mysticrose
07-14-2010, 09:22 PM
Yes !

Adalena935
07-14-2010, 09:31 PM
Yes for all that's listed in Post #3 by A Closer Look. Bravo! Couldn't have said it better.

Jack
07-14-2010, 09:41 PM
No clue. No evidence, no known motive. Rumor doesn't do it for me.

gardeness
07-14-2010, 09:44 PM
No clue. No evidence, no known motive. Rumor doesn't do it for me.

Completely agree. No clue.

revampz
07-14-2010, 09:54 PM
I think TH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance because:

1) She was the last known adult to see him.
2) She allegedly was untruthful about her whereabouts that morning.
3) I thought her behavior was odd at the first press conference.
4) She allegedly tried to have her husband murdered.
5) She showed the sealed RO to her new lover.
6) Her new lover took photos of the RO.
7) Her new lover googled Kaine's new address.
8) She asked her new lover to lie to her lawyer about her being at his home.
9) She sent explicit pics of herself to this new lover, which only interests me due to LE telling Kaine that this is very similar behavior to what she did with the landscaper she allegedly attempted to hire to kill Kaine.
10) All other immediate family adults (KH, TY, DY) seem to believe without doubt that TH is responsible, and they are being supplied info from LE.
11) I believe LE believes that TH is responsible for Kyron's going missing, and are just keeping it close to their vest for now, as they work on proving it beyond reasonable doubt, and finding Kyron. But I strongly believe that DY, TY and KH have all been helped along in their opinions by information that is leaked to them by LE, even though LE would never admit that at this time.

ETA 12) A judge saw enough to issue the RO in the first place, and remove baby K from her custody, which I don't think was done without sufficient cause for alarm.

Exactly what I was just about to write!!!!!!

and we only know about the landscaper and the new guy......

I never ever trust a woman who would send photos/sextext to anyone merely to use them....

At the end of my first husbands marriage she wanted to leave him but stayed as he was paying for her and her two children (she didnt work)........after he left she was desperate for more money and she texted him very loving words and pictures(!).........as we lived in a rather small town and good detective work I found out that she had sent the exact same words and pictures to four other guys at that same time........hoping one would take the bait and she could use for money and to do her dirty work.......I have met a couple of these women and they think of themselves only and use people!

I do not trust this woman

debirlfan
07-14-2010, 10:43 PM
I think there are two questions:
1. Did she take Kyron.
2. Did she harm (or allow to be harmed) Kyron.

miabellamoure
07-14-2010, 10:56 PM
My vote is without a doubt in my mind, YES.

When someone is the center of this kind of tragedy, you do NOT react in any of the manners TH has displayed since 6/4/10.

You also do NOT hinder LE or an investigation where anyone is missing, let alone a 7 yr old little boy.

If TH can't pass one let alone two polygraphs...all eyes need to be on her for the answer to where Kyron is.

sayd
07-14-2010, 11:20 PM
If it quacks like a duck; it's a duck.

Haeve
07-14-2010, 11:28 PM
I put "no clue". My abnormal psychology and hinky meter says "yes, yes, yes", but besides this case being so weird that just about anything could have happened to Kyron, up to and including alien abduction, if I was on a jury, given the evidence we have so far, I don't have anything on which to convict her. Not one thing. I'm not exactly on the fence, but I'll watch and see how they build the case and what the witnesses have to say. I'm trying to ignore the crowd with the pitchforks and torches for now.

Donjeta
07-15-2010, 03:40 AM
I voted yes because there just is so much that seems to point to her in LE actions, legal documents, KH, DY and TY statements and what little we have been able to observe about her behavior afterwards (although I'm willing to give her a free pass on facebook). All those things would have to be explained away either as complete coincidences, unfounded rumors, deliberate lies, total misunderstandings, a cruel vendetta or ugly coping. I guess it's possible as long as LE isn't confirming a lot but I don't see it as likely. DY, TY and KH know her behavior from the past and have seen her after Kyron's disappearance and have heard things from LE and if they're convinced it carries a lot of weight with me. It's not proof and they might be personally biased but they know the situation intimately and it's hard for me as a total outsider to secondguess them.

She may not have acted alone but I believe she knows what happened.

Susan10
07-15-2010, 03:58 AM
I put "no clue". My abnormal psychology and hinky meter says "yes, yes, yes", but besides this case being so weird that just about anything could have happened to Kyron, up to and including alien abduction, if I was on a jury, given the evidence we have so far, I don't have anything on which to convict her. Not one thing. I'm not exactly on the fence, but I'll watch and see how they build the case and what the witnesses have to say. I'm trying to ignore the crowd with the pitchforks and torches for now.

.....

butterfly1978
07-15-2010, 04:48 AM
I think TH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance because:

1) She was the last known adult to see him.
2) She allegedly was untruthful about her whereabouts that morning.
3) I thought her behavior was odd at the first press conference.
4) She allegedly tried to have her husband murdered.
5) She showed the sealed RO to her new lover.
6) Her new lover took photos of the RO.
7) Her new lover googled Kaine's new address.
8) She asked her new lover to lie to her lawyer about her being at his home.
9) She sent explicit pics of herself to this new lover, which only interests me due to LE telling Kaine that this is very similar behavior to what she did with the landscaper she allegedly attempted to hire to kill Kaine.
10) All other immediate family adults (KH, TY, DY) seem to believe without doubt that TH is responsible, and they are being supplied info from LE.
11) I believe LE believes that TH is responsible for Kyron's going missing, and are just keeping it close to their vest for now, as they work on proving it beyond reasonable doubt, and finding Kyron. But I strongly believe that DY, TY and KH have all been helped along in their opinions by information that is leaked to them by LE, even though LE would never admit that at this time.

ETA 12) A judge saw enough to issue the RO in the first place, and remove baby K from her custody, which I don't think was done without sufficient cause for alarm.

I agree with all the above but would like to add that her dad stated there is a 50/50 chance she will be arrested.
She hasn't refuted anything publically
Her body language, (LE often states when asking for tips, to report anyone acting odd... Well she is acting odd.)
and I ran her astrological birth chart and compared it with Kyron's (Not good)
My gut tells me its her and statistically the last person that was seen with the child, and generally its someone known to the victim.
LE stateing this is an isolated incident.

So I voted yes, and although I have looked at other possabilities I just cant get a list like above that makes since, Ofcourse I am female and often change my mind but havent yet

surrogatemom
07-15-2010, 06:11 AM
Editing, sorry. :/

FleurdeLou
07-15-2010, 11:13 AM
I know she's done some awful things (murder for hire, sexting) that may have contributed to her being obstinate re: the polygraphs. But if she's completely innocent, why hasn't she been forthcoming about her whereabouts that day and being honest with LE? I just think she's acting like she has something to hide, and that makes me think she does.

debs
07-15-2010, 11:24 AM
(edited, cuz I commented....mybad!)

We don't "know" a lot outside of what other people are saying. It might be true, but so far, it doesn't make it fact. It makes it someone else's word against hers.

ElizaAvalon
07-15-2010, 11:34 AM
I voted YES.

And I would have voted PLANNED, if that were an option...

x_files
07-15-2010, 12:32 PM
yes and premeditated for revenge.

I think the victims here are Kyron, Desiree.
I think Kaine and Terri's dysfunctional family dynamics since childhood have accumulated until it hit this boiling point. They were the catalyst in the events that lead to his disappearance.
Whether Kaine was actively involved or not I do not know but he is not innocent in it either. Both he and Terri disgust me. MOO.

Money Girl
07-16-2010, 12:10 AM
I voted "No."

Still believe Kyron was abducted at the school by a sexual predator.

Shame on the school for such lax security.

IMO

Kat
07-16-2010, 04:03 AM
Yes

I thought this when Kyron was first reported missing and the resulting media frenzy of her personal life has not swayed my opinion.

I base it on:
1. She is the last known person to have been with Kyron.
2. She more than likely knew that Kyron's school did not call home for absent students prior to that day.
3. She is the last known person to have been with Kyron. Bears repeating. :)

bessie
07-16-2010, 09:27 AM
I finally broke down and voted "yes", though "probably" would be more accurate. I'm about eighty percent convinced that TH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance for many of the reasons already stated.

The MFH plot has not been proven, but LE had enough evidence to take serious action based on it. That says a lot, IMO. And there's the sexting with KH's friend and recruiting him to photograph the RO and trace KH's residence. These two incidents indicate to me that TH is a woman who will take extreme measures to get her way, using any means available to advance her schemes. Does it prove that she harmed Kyron? No. It does say that she is capable given a strong enough motive.

If she is responsible, I suspect there was an accomplice and a plan that went awry. A staged kidnapping seems more likely to me than murder. Because her motivation is unclear and we haven't seen the evidence, however, I remain 20 percent unconvinced.

Turnadot
07-16-2010, 12:30 PM
I don't know. I've been following this and weighing the pros and cons, I can't conclude TH is responsible, or any of the other players for that matter. TH's actions certainly make her look bad, but it's not enough for me to pin a guilty sign on her.

RoughlyCollie
07-16-2010, 02:19 PM
I voted yes, and I am 95% convinced. I think TH is a sociopath (has no conscience and no empathy, for starters) and that her actions were premeditated.

The other 5% leaves room for what I see as a vanishingly small chance that TH is completely, 100% innocent, and is not a sociopath.

arielilane
07-17-2010, 10:51 PM
When Kyron first went missing TM's body language was a dead giveaway for me. I knew then she was responsible somehow.

Herding Cats
07-17-2010, 11:25 PM
Voted no clue.

There is no evidence that TH did anything other than drop Kyron off at school. There is at least one witness who places Kyron at school after TH left. All the rest is rumor, innuendo, supposition, dirty laundry, and voodoo science.

If there was something that was a concrete bit of evidence, there would've been an arrest. There isn't, and LE knows this. The pressure they've put TH under is enormous, and yet she hasn't 'cracked', took a long time to 'lawyer up', took several polies (*notorious voodoo science), and has had her life, weight, parenting style, social graces, ability to deal/not deal with stress, medical records, choice of careers, personal history, way of keeping house all torn to bits looking for something - anything - that would give one a bit of solid, factual evidence...

I didn't vote no, because I'm a wuss.

Best-
Herding Cats

Baxter
07-17-2010, 11:43 PM
Voted yes. I suspected her from the first press conference.

If we had all of the facts, the case would be solved. It isn't.
There is not a reason on the earth, that should keep TH from telling the WHOLE truth.

CarmelEyesD
07-18-2010, 05:30 AM
I really don't think she is smart enough to outsmart LE TY KH and everyone else; leave no firm evidence and stay quiet so logn if she was guilty.

DairyGirl
07-18-2010, 05:43 AM
I really don't think she is smart enough to outsmart LE TY KH and everyone else; leave no firm evidence and stay quiet so logn if she was guilty.

She hasn't outsmarted KH and TY (or DY). They are onto her. LE, too. Seventy five percent of the people that voted on the poll here have figured it out, too. And we don't know what kind of evidence she left behind. It benefits her greatly to stay quiet.

helpfulcharlie
07-18-2010, 03:22 PM
I believe that LE knows:

1) at least some of the WHO
2) at least some of the WHAT
3) at least some of the WHERE
4) at least some of the HOW
5) most of the WHEN

and when they finish "connecting the dots" they will have enough of a picture to make an arrest and a conviction.

I do not think they're fumbling in the dark at all, and I am not of the belief that they have started back at square one.

We may never fully comprehend the WHY.

cluciano63
07-22-2010, 05:54 PM
I don't think they know anything about the "where" or Kyron would not be missing.

CarmelEyesD
07-22-2010, 06:37 PM
No matter WHO it is-with ANY child, I will NEVER understand the WHY.

revampz
07-22-2010, 11:09 PM
I have already voted yes but I just have to add......so many of these tragedies/murders (and I am still hopeful that it is a kidnapping only here) are not premitated, but abuse gone too far, or result from lost tempers etc, crimes of opportunity ie sick sickos wanting to get their rocks off and see a child/young woman alone etc..., or accidents trying to be hidden ie..pushed and hit their head.

In this high tech age I can not understand the confidence of those who premeditate these kidnap/murders and think they are going to away with them.......I mean the whole world literally can focus on you and your actions and scrutinize everything you do.....Terri being on the computer all the time would know this........

It just makes me wonder what sort of personality would even take this chance knowing that in such a case as a missing child there is going to be huge media interest.....they have to be so sure of themselves or nutters.......

I havent been into the details of the casey Anthony case..but of course know of it as does most of the world.....but I read stacks of the letters from the jail and I have to say she is a nutter........off in la la land and so into denial..........a very immature woman....

sorry to get off the topic but I have been thinking about the gall of these people for ages.......I certainly wouldnt take any criminal risks these days

TrY
07-23-2010, 11:27 PM
1. TH's cell phone pings don't match up with what she says she was doing the day Kyron went missing, June 4.

2. She is supposedly the last adult to have seen Kyron. She has never spoken at any of the pressers (before she lawyered up) about Kyron.

3. She's allegedly flunked polygraphs.

4. She's allegedly tried to hire a hitman to kill her husband Kaine.

liz b.
07-25-2010, 01:55 PM
No, I do not believe that TH is guilty of the planned and premeditated murder of her little stepson. Who she had raised from infancy. By the looks of Kyron all four parents have done a wondefrul job raising him. He seems like a delightful little boy.

No, I do not believe it was a "rage " killing,whereby TH killed Kyron in the heat of the moment. When would she have done so ? And why ? Because he misbehaved at the science fair ? There would have been too many loose ends which she would not have thought about,if it was done in the heat of the moment.

I do think Kyron was abducted from the school, quite possibly by someone he knew.Could even be a relative,or a friend of the family. It's interesting that the family was relatively new to both that house and Kyron's school. I wonder if anyone new had become involved with this family ? In retrospect, had anyone seemed to insert him/her self into the family's day to day lives ? Had anyone showed a romantic interest in TH, and made the first move ?


I definately do believe that LE will solve this case.

All JMO

kappy50
07-26-2010, 02:05 PM
I have no idea of Teri's guilt or innocence....there is one thing for sure tho, she's had plenty of time to just "Run/Flee"... if you will. And she has choosen not to...

Kimster
07-28-2010, 10:42 AM
THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR THE MEEK!

If you get upset about other opinions that differ from your own, then please exit quietly. :blushing:

This is for the debate of TH's involvement. There is a lot of spattering of this topic through the threads and it's getting distracting.

Remember, keep your posts from addressing other posters directly when you have an opposing view.

tehcloser
07-28-2010, 11:12 AM
Maybe she is. Maybe she isn't. That's where I stand. I can see how it could have been her, but then I see how DY and KH need so badly to believe it's her. We are hearing one side of this, and there are alot of "issues" that have been there for years. I'm just not at all sure those "issues" caused Kyron to disappear.

Kimster
07-28-2010, 11:13 AM
Here's my :twocents:

I think that I would like to see an interview with TH. However, I doubt her attorney would allow such a thing at this point, so I doubt we'll get that advantage to see her side of things.

Her lack of urgency since Kyron went missing is suspicious to me. Her comments on FB that have been widely discussed here and in the media, her demeanor in the two pressers of which she appeared, and her "sexting" episode put my hinky meter on overload.

That's where I'm at right now. Feel free to disagree, I can take it. :D

tracyf1008
07-28-2010, 11:15 AM
I am not sure, honestly.. Her lack of concern on her face, amongst a plethera of other things doesn't make her guilty. But I sure am leaning toward her being responsible for Kyron's disappearance.

SurfieTX
07-28-2010, 11:18 AM
I can't really say now. I used to think so, but.... I'd really, REALLY like to know what DDS said at the GJ and why she was subpoenaed.

Meagain
07-28-2010, 11:21 AM
I believe TH to be responsible.

And sadly, I believe Kyron to be deceased.

WhyaDuck?
07-28-2010, 11:21 AM
Here's my :twocents:

I think that I would like to see an interview with TH. However, I doubt her attorney would allow such a thing at this point, so I doubt we'll get that advantage to see her side of things.

Her lack of urgency since Kyron went missing is suspicious to me. Her comments on FB that have been widely discussed here and in the media, her demeanor in the two pressers of which she appeared, and her "sexting" episode put my hinky meter on overload.

That's where I'm at right now. Feel free to disagree, I can take it. :D

I've been considering these things, and I can honestly only say that being a crappy person does not make you guilty of this kidnapping/murder. If that is all it took, I think any of us could pick out at least one or two other people in this story that could be equally guilty. :twocents:

Paulette
07-28-2010, 11:23 AM
I don't think she had the heart to do it. She would have been too upset the rest of the day had she actually killed him or seen it done. In the end, she chickened out & called in her wing-man to do the dirty deed.

WhyaDuck?
07-28-2010, 11:24 AM
My current position:

Would I be shocked if TMH turns out to be guilty? Absolutely not.

But, in the absence of clear info from LE and without charges laid, I continue to seek in as many other avenues as possible. I continue to take all media statements with the grain of salt I think they deserve.

Since KH, DY, TY, the media and so many others are convinced she is guilty, I believe it behooves some of us to keep the door open for other options.

tehcloser
07-28-2010, 11:28 AM
I don't like being on the fence, I'd rather be on the Terri is guilty side. But try as I may I can't climb down. Oh, I go on walk about, but by the end of the day, I'm right back up here.

ThoughtFox
07-28-2010, 11:29 AM
I'll just post my own opinion, which I realize may be in the minority view right now. But it will feel good to just blurt it out here. If I'm wrong later, I'll be one of the first to eat crow, I promise you.

But right now, I don't really like the fence very much, and unless there's big evidence out there to prove Terri wasn't involved - like finding another person who kidnapped Kyron - then she was the last person to see him alive.

So I haven't been on the fence for a long time and I don't see her as a victim. Frankly, I'm baffled why some people think murder for hire might be justified in a bad marriage - since when? A crime is a crime. Plotting is plotting. This whole thing is completely hinky to me.

The police aren't investigating Kaine as a bad father either. He is the one with custody of his daughter now, which Terri is not fighting against at all. Why should we assume that he was abusive and TH or her friends are hiding Kyron for his own good? And for what motive? Why not just contact the police and start proceedings against Kaine, then? But none of that has happened, so I think it's a big red herring. Otherwise she would have hidden her own precious daughter as well - but she didn't.

Here's the court affidavit about the sexting and the restraining order against Terri. This is real evidence. The cell phones and text messages, as well as images, are part of the court record and the evidence and were viewed by a judge "in camera" or in his chambers.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

These are not just rumors, but part of public court records and the judge saw the sexting photos and messages to both Cook and the landscaper before slapping a restraining order on Terri. He couldn't do that without just cause.

See the last two paragraphs and especially the last line in the image below - police have this evidence!

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151/rattlesnakeroot/HormanCase1.jpg

I like to look at what people do and not what they or their defense attorneys say.

Terri's story of the morning Kyron disappeared doesn't fit the circumstances. The police have said her cell phone records don't add up. Having not seen all the evidence we can't know for sure, but most of the time cell phones are indicators of where someone is at the time. They were used in the Peterson case and I don't know why we should just assume the police are wrong about her whereabouts.

I don't understand the whole thing about the doctor's note and the science fair, or why she didn't go back to get the project since she had the truck.

The police have her cell phone records with sexting and "lurid pictures" which is stated in court records. So she was being unfaithful with a landscaper who might have talked to her about murder for hire. Then she was quick to have an affair in the middle of the search for Kyron with her other sexting partner - an old friend of Kaine's! Sorry, but this is beginning to remind me of Scott Peterson and Amber Frey!

Kaine may not be a model husband, and it's a shame he left Desiree for Terri while she was pregnant - to me that's despicable if it's true. The whole extended family thing is sort of tragic and I feel sorry for the kids.

But that doesn't change the fact the Kaine and Desiree were NOT at the school that day and TH was. Trying to cast doubt on everyone else involved doesn't quite work in this case, anymore than it worked to blame homeless people in the Peterson case - and the defense tried that over and over.

JMO

Krisy
07-28-2010, 11:35 AM
Here's my :twocents:

I think that I would like to see an interview with TH. However, I doubt her attorney would allow such a thing at this point, so I doubt we'll get that advantage to see her side of things.

Her lack of urgency since Kyron went missing is suspicious to me. Her comments on FB that have been widely discussed here and in the media, her demeanor in the two pressers of which she appeared, and her "sexting" episode put my hinky meter on overload.

That's where I'm at right now. Feel free to disagree, I can take it. :D


This is exactly where I am.

I wish we would get more facts on th telephone pings and videos.

scotslass
07-28-2010, 11:36 AM
I'm unsure, Th actions have been questionable but i also feel they have been slanted in the media I posted an example of the reporting on another thread.

post copied here:
"One-sentence e-mails she'd shoot off to me," Young said Tuesday in a one-on-one interview with The Oregonian. "She e-mailed me three of four times that day, which is kind of strange."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...disappear.html

It is this type of reporting that is really starting to get my back up and i can see where people think there is a witchhunt going on... Dy actually said that Th would e-mail her up to 5 times a day on a regular basis, what was strange was that Th e-mails were usually wordy and these were not..(paraphrasing not an actual word for word quote) This article makes it sound like it was out of the ordinary that Th would e-mail her IMO....grrrrrr


With LE remaining silent and now hearing most of KH & DY statements have come from Th herself and not the briefings we were lead to believe coupled with the inconsistencies on Th behaviour ..well for me that puts a whole new slant on what we know. having said that i'm having a hard time producing an alternate theory on how Kyron managed to completely vanish from school and no one noticed (leaving with mom seems to the most plausible for me).

since the interview where it was stated Th was the source of most information leaked by the family and not Le i have also started to question if DY or TH is the notorious "reliable source" that we here so much from. The cell phone pings were leaked early and they both confirmed they learned that from TH not LE.
Also the timing on DS appearing it was put out there and then within 20 mins or so the article was edited with the letter from the family. the timing seems so coincidental..Pure speculation on my part mind you :)

so here i sit perched on my fence patiently waiting for Le to tip their hand and getting a fine set of slivers in the process as i tend to slightly slip from one side to the other...

MOO

adh74
07-28-2010, 11:37 AM
Thank you for starting this thread Kimster. I was hoping someone would start one like this, but I was too afraid to start my own because my new threads always seem to disappear for some (usually legitimate) reason due to my inexperience on WS.

After the audio interview yesterday and learning that most of what DY & KH have revealed in the weekly pressers is based on second/third hand info that TH told other people...I am questioning EVERYTHING I *thought* I "knew" about this case.

We thought TH was pinging on SI based on MSM reports from various "reliable sources". Now we know that this was just based on TH's temper tantrum after her LDT.

The MFH plot seems to be real, although still not confirmed by LE in the media. The fact that it is on court documents tells me that LE gave KH and his atty enough evidence to believe it to be true enough to tell it to a judge. So I'm putting that in my "true" file along with all the sexting stuff. (Yeah, there's some degree of assumption there....but I'm going with it for now.)

The MFH thing makes TH look bad. Very, very, VERY BAD. Is it possible that the MFH is true, but she still had nothing to do with Kyron going missing? Yes. Is it likely? No. I do have a hint of doubt running in my head though that says maybe SHE didn't have anything to do with Kyron's disappearance, but perhaps some unsavory characters she may have associated herself with may have done it for some other reason (retaliation, non-payment, etc.).

I'm also mentally piecing together the mental issues of TH. Alcoholism to the point of drinking herself to sleep in 2005. History of stimulants, etc. for body building contests. Having a baby 20 months ago. Possible PPD. The possibility that she was training for another competition and may have started back on those same stimulants she is said to have taken previously when training for events. The possible interaction of those stimulants and PPD meds. The stress of caring for someone else's child (Kyron) in addition to having your own teenager and infant. The apparent lack of communication/affection/attention in the marriage between KH & TH. Could all of this have created a "perfect storm" in her brain chemistry to create some sort of psychosis? I do think that is possible.

Then, add the whole DDS thing into the mix (which we don't really know what she may or may not know at this point...it's all just speculation), and I'm very torn as to whether TH may have called DDS as a result of a horrible accident and needed help getting rid of a body and/or creating an alibi for TH....or the two of them planned this and DDS (who is said to not like children) may have rubbed off on TH. Perhaps DDS is how Th got hooked up with the LS and/or other hitman possibilities.

I'm also wondering if DDS and MC knew each other somehow.

tehcloser
07-28-2010, 11:38 AM
I'll just post my own opinion, which I realize may be in the minority view right now. But it will feel good to just blurt it out here. If I'm wrong later, I'll be one of the first to eat crow, I promise you.

But right now, I don't really like the fence very much, and unless there's big evidence out there to prove Terri wasn't involved - like finding another person who kidnapped Kyron - then she was the last person to see him alive.

We don't know that as a fact.

So I haven't been on the fence for a long time and I don't see her as a victim. Frankly, I'm baffled why some people think murder for hire might be justified in a bad marriage - since when? A crime is a crime. Plotting is plotting. This whole thing is completely hinky to me.

If the murder for hire plot was such a done deal, why no arrest? LE has not actually said a word about it, OR anything else.

The police aren't investigating Kaine as a bad father either. He is the one with custody of his daughter now, which Terri is not fighting against at all. Why should we assume that he was abusive and TH or her friends are hiding Kyron for his own good? And for what motive? Why not just contact the police and start proceedings against Kaine, then? But none of that has happened, so I think it's a big red herring. Otherwise she would have hidden her own precious daughter as well - but she didn't.

I like to look at what people do and not what they or their defense attorneys say.

I think that too, but not being in Terri's shoes and having a high priced attorney, I can't make that call.

Terri's story of the morning Kyron disappeared doesn't fit the circumstances. The police have said her cell phone records don't add up. Having not seen all the evidence we can't know for sure, but most of the time cell phones are indicators of where someone is at the time. They were used in the Peterson case and I don't know why we should just assume the police are wrong about her whereabouts.

Again, this is not coming from LE.

I don't understand the whole thing about the doctor's note and the science fair, or why she didn't go back to get the project since she had the truck.

The police have her cell phone records with sexting and "lurid pictures" which is stated in court records. So she was being unfaithful with a landscaper who might have talked to her about murder for hire. Then she was quick to have an affair in the middle of the search for Kyron with her other sexting partner - an old friend of Kaine's! Sorry, but this is beginning to remind me of Scott Peterson and Amber Frey!

Kaine may not be a model husband, and it's a shame he left Desiree for Terri while she was pregnant - to me that's despicable if it's true. The whole extended family thing is sort of tragic and I feel sorry for the kids.

But that doesn't change the fact the Kaine and Desiree were NOT at the school that day and TH was. Trying to cast doubt on everyone else involved doesn't quite work in this case, anymore than it worked to blame homeless people in the Peterson case - and the defense tried that over and over.If it's not Terri, it does not have to be DY or KH.



JMO

My responses in color..........

Billylee
07-28-2010, 11:38 AM
Wasn't the sexting leaked by KH? Are we sure it even happened?

I dunno what to believe (or whom) anymore. There just isn't enough evidence that we're privy to to make a definitive decision. I think the MFH plot leads me to believe that TH could have done something with/to Kyron. Other than that, I'm still on the fence. It's hard for me to believe anyone can raise a child and then harm them, of course, like in the case of Susan Smith, it happens. Her motive is still missing, unless it is true the KH was having an affair and she did it to get back at him. If she didn't do it, then LE has wasted a whole lot of time looking at the wrong person, but that too, has been known to happen. Hard tellin.... not knownin'.

WhyaDuck?
07-28-2010, 11:38 AM
Thank you for starting this thread Kimster. I was hoping someone would start one like this, but I was too afraid to start my own because my new threads always seem to disappear for some (usually legitimate) reason due to my inexperience on WS.

After the audio interview yesterday and learning that most of what DY & KH have revealed in the weekly pressers is based on second/third hand info that TH told other people...I am questioning EVERYTHING I *thought* I "knew" about this case.

We thought TH was pinging on SI based on MSM reports from various "reliable sources". Now we know that this was just based on TH's temper tantrum after her LDT.

The MFH plot seems to be real, although still not confirmed by LE in the media. The fact that it is on court documents tells me that LE gave KH and his atty enough evidence to believe it to be true enough to tell it to a judge. So I'm putting that in my "true" file along with all the sexting stuff. (Yeah, there's some degree of assumption there....but I'm going with it for now.)

The MFH thing makes TH look bad. Very, very, VERY BAD. Is it possible that the MFH is true, but she still had nothing to do with Kyron going missing? Yes. Is it likely? No. I do have a hint of doubt running in my head though that says maybe SHE didn't have anything to do with Kyron's disappearance, but perhaps some unsavory characters she may have associated herself with may have done it for some other reason (retaliation, non-payment, etc.).

I'm also mentally piecing together the mental issues of TH. Alcoholism to the point of drinking herself to sleep in 2005. History of stimulants, etc. for body building contests. Having a baby 20 months ago. Possible PPD. The possibility that she was training for another competition and may have started back on those same stimulants she is said to have taken previously when training for events. The possible interaction of those stimulants and PPD meds. The stress of caring for someone else's child (Kyron) in addition to having your own teenager and infant. The apparent lack of communication/affection/attention in the marriage between KH & TH. Could all of this have created a "perfect storm" in her brain chemistry to create some sort of psychosis? I do think that is possible.

Then, add the whole DDS thing into the mix (which we don't really know what she may or may not know at this point...it's all just speculation), and I'm very torn as to whether TH may have called DDS as a result of a horrible accident and needed help getting rid of a body and/or creating an alibi for TH....or the two of them planned this and DDS (who is said to not like children) may have rubbed off on TH. Perhaps DDS is how Th got hooked up with the LS and/or other hitman possibilities.

I'm also wondering if DDS and MC knew each other somehow.

BBM

Oh my goodness - I am so glad you asked. I have been chewing that one over, myself. I'd really like to know more about these two.

Cajun Girl
07-28-2010, 11:41 AM
Most of what we know is theory pasted together by rumor. The only fact I am certain of is Kyron is not at home. I do not believe Terri is a truthful person. This is of great concern to me but as a layperson with no formal education in the matter to decipher her personality, it remains simply a concern. The time lines are not from LE therefore they are not working evidence, merely conjecture. My greatest fear is LE is holding few cards leaving Kyron to remain as a missing and endangered child.

Am most beholding to Kyron's natural parents for putting aside their egos, their past, no matter how unattractive it may sound to the armchairs because they want their son home. It is my belief this is how people who love you react.

My gut says she knows something, whether by her association she fascilitated the act or by her own hand, she holds the key. Evidence, I have none other than a continual series of events that lead me to conclude she is not a truthful person. If everyone in this world who ever told a lie was in prison this world would be run by my cat Annie.

There you have it. Fence sitter, yes and no. My gut rarely fails me.

adh74
07-28-2010, 11:43 AM
I don't think she had the heart to do it. She would have been too upset the rest of the day had she actually killed him or seen it done. In the end, she chickened out & called in her wing-man to do the dirty deed.

I have been thinking about this too. But KH saying that she appeared perfectly normal, sitting at her laptop, showing off pictures, etc....makes me wonder. If she wasn't involved, wouldn't there have been something hinky about her disposition just a matter of hours after whatever happened, happened (even if she didn't do the deed, but knew that something had happened to Kyron).

Then you have DY saying that TH's behavior was hinky from that very first phone call.

Was KH really just SO CLUELESS that he didn't notice obvious behavior changes in TH when he got home that day. And why isn't he looking back in retrospect and identifying hinky behaviors now, like he has said about stuff back in 2005 (alcoholism, stimulant use, etc).

:banghead::waitasec: I'm so confused.

ThoughtFox
07-28-2010, 11:44 AM
Wasn't the sexting leaked by KH? Are we sure it even happened?

Yes, it is real and it happened. The sexting is listed in court filings as a reason for a restraining order keeping TH away from the house and her daughter. It says the proof is in the cell phone records that are part of the body of evidence.

You can read the affidavit. If this was in question, the restraining order probably wouldn't have been okay'd by a judge. He viewed the cell phone records "in camera" or in his chambers.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

I'll add that to my post if it isn't too late to edit.

helpfulcharlie
07-28-2010, 11:44 AM
I love the idea of this thread. I would love to see some sort of representation of the shifting of opinion regarding TH's involvement over time, or with each case event or release (or non-release) of information. Maybe next big case. :)

Meanwhile, since there is no cost for being wrong, I'm wearing my heart on my sleeve. I believe she did it. I don't really think there was anyone 100% complicit with her, but I do believe others may have assisted without exactly knowing what they were assisting with, due to deception and manipulation. Friends support friends, up to the point where it becomes a felony. I have a clearance to maintain, friend or no friend, I'm not risking that for anyone. Other people's boundaries may differ.

In fact, even if there WAS a cost for being wrong, I'd put some money on my position. If it were legal to bet on things like this, I would probably stake $50 on it.

SurfieTX
07-28-2010, 11:50 AM
I have been thinking about this too. But KH saying that she appeared perfectly normal, sitting at her laptop, showing off pictures, etc....makes me wonder.

This is strange to me too. Look, she knows that in a matter of an hour or so, the ***** is about to hit the fan - and she's just dawdling on the computer? Even a half-way normal person would have nervous energy - be cleaning the house, working outside, doing something active, and that's even if she were somewhat, ugh, "happy" about it.

KeyboardCat
07-28-2010, 11:50 AM
I think Terri looks suspicious for this, mostly for same reasons other people do.

But the problem is, too little information has come from LE. The rest of the info out there comes from case players or newspapers with unnamed sources. We can't see police reports, or transcripts of interviews... nothing. We can't even be absolutely sure where they haven't searched. Everything we have left to talk about here is opinion, speculation, and conjecture, or debate on which source is to be believed or not believed and for what reason.

Maybe I'm becoming disheartened, but unless the police take the muzzle off, we won't know what happened to Kyron until they tell us.. or until he is found. And even then, we may not know what happened to him. I hate to say this, but its been eight weeks. And I know you all know the reality of that, and the chances of him being found alive are not the best. So at this point, even if his remains are found, there may not be a discernible cause of death... nor any evidence of what he suffered... and unfortunately any biological evidence of who made him suffer may be gone now as well.

Unless they know that Terri did this for sure, and can at some point in the future prove it.... we will probably never know.

lynmaree
07-28-2010, 11:52 AM
Was she involved? In my mind absolutely! Is she the mastermind, again yes! Has she lost control and this whole thing snowballed out of control? Again yes...
Did she herself harm him? This is where I get stuck...I just dont see it...If he has been harmed/killed, I completely believe (and I have no idea why other than gut feeling) that someone else actually committed the act...where was Kiara when she killed him, where was she when she disposed of the body? TH didnt plan to kill KH herself, she tried to hire someone else to do it so to me that tells me she's less likely to have personally killed an INNOCENT child that, for all accounts, at least at some point in time she loved and cared for.

IF (and this is a big if) K is deceased then I completely feel that KH and DY do not know or have any reason to believe same. In this impossible situation, if they believed him dead, I dont think they would be able to put on the hopeful front and be out there in front of the media answering any questions. For whatever reason, they truly believe he is ALIVE and I cant see law enforcement giving them false hope. We all say they know more than we do---a lot more---maybe their theories are based on not only instinct but facts and tips as well. DY seemed so sure of herself when they were talking about plans for August and she said he'd be home by then.

Also, one thing strange stood out in the interview....DY said one of the emails from TH was about "t-shirts" and she mumbles to Kaine something about not having done that yet and still needing too...I inferred that TH told DY in email that K needed new tshirts and DY was supposed to pick him up some. If she is still planning to do so that means she must have more than just maternal hope ...DEAR LORD I HOPE SHE"S RIGHT!

This is all opinion only

scotslass
07-28-2010, 11:54 AM
BBM

Oh my goodness - I am so glad you asked. I have been chewing that one over, myself. I'd really like to know more about these two.

Me too I also find his reasoning that he was trying to solicit info from TH interesting and then throwing out there she asked him to lie to her attorney. I really don't know where MC fits in, the media class him as a friend of KH, KH refuted that saying he just reappeared. He sure was in with the family fast and thick for someone so distant (vigils,early interviews, being at the home, the website etc). He was having a sexting relationship with TH so was he friends with Th before all of this but KH had no knowledge of friendship? Then DDS organized Th fortieth b-day party but KH hardly knows her... Seems like Th had a whole set of friends that were solely hers.Hmmm

So these friends do they all know each other? I have wondered. Nothing makes sense to me anymore..

STEADFAST
07-28-2010, 11:57 AM
I don't know that Terri is guilty of doing something criminal to Kyron, but it seems to me that so many of her behaviors have come together during that morning and the time since, all adding up to her probable guilt. Each thing by itself is not hugely suspect, but taken together, I think they are very convincing (though not proof, by any means.)

LE has stated that she was the last person seen with Kyron and that the last confirmed sighting of him was with her.

She took the truck that day, which was not her routine, and did not use it for the purpose for which she'd claimed to need it.

She told a friend that she had told Kyron's teacher that he had an appointment on Friday but that it was a different Friday, and gave reasons for the teacher's misunderstanding that were at least partially untrue.

Her whereabouts in the hours following his disappearance have not been confirmed, and reports are that her explanation for a good deal of that time is "just driving around." Reports are that her cell phone pings and bank records don't match where she said she was.

A friend of hers who left work without explanation on the morning Kyron went missing, after a call from Terri, has to be called to a grand jury to get her to explain what she was doing at that time.

She has not been able to pass a LDT concerning her activities that morning.

Her facebook page was just beyond insensitive about Kyron's disappearance. I don't think we can discuss particulars, but I saw it, and believe me, it was hinky as all get out, with NO unhappiness or anxiety shown, quite the opposite.

Her appearance at that one press conference seemed very "off" to me. She looked, frankly, guilty (to me) and seemed to be faking an emotional attachment to Desiree for the cameras.

Her cell records led LE to a man who claims she wanted to hire him to kill Kaine.

She asked another man to lie to everyone including her attorney about violating the terms of the R.O.

She has not fought to see her daughter, preferring to keep silent.

She has not proclaimed her innocence.

That's not enough to convict her, no. But it certainly is enough to justify strongly suspecting her guilt.

angelainwi
07-28-2010, 11:57 AM
I just keep thinking back to the Jon Benet case, didn't mom or dad fail polygraphs? Who would have ever thought that case would conclude the way it did.

Speaking of polygraphs I still find it very curious why LE decided to bring them up yesterday.

I think if Terri did it they would somehow have enough to arrest her??

adh74
07-28-2010, 12:20 PM
Me too I also find his reasoning that he was trying to solicit info from TH interesting and then throwing out there she asked him to lie to her attorney. I really don't know where MC fits in, the media class him as a friend of KH, KH refuted that saying he just reappeared. He sure was in with the family fast and thick for someone so distant (vigils,early interviews, being at the home, the website etc). He was having a sexting relationship with TH so was he friends with Th before all of this but KH had no knowledge of friendship? Then DDS organized Th fortieth b-day party but KH hardly knows her... Seems like Th had a whole set of friends that were solely hers.Hmmm

So these friends do they all know each other? I have wondered. Nothing makes sense to me anymore..

I'm right there with you. It seems to appear that TH had some whole little secret life going on. Her BFF DeDe....KH barely knew. MC appears out of nowhere, and jumps right in as if he's know the family forever? Wierd. I'm thinking he knew TH & DDS for at least a little while prior to Kryon going missing. Additionally, weren't there MSM reports based on other acquaintences of his that he has a bit of a hinky past?

cindysue
07-28-2010, 12:29 PM
I got this off net to describe sociopaths maybe it will help with understanding certain behaviors

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying

Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

citigirl
07-28-2010, 12:35 PM
Okay, I am ready for the slings and arrows. I definitely think she is involved in this. But I do understand people who want more proof.

I keep thinking about the "toxic cloud," as Emma so aptly put it, that was created by the way Terri and Kaine's relationship started. I think it is possible Desiree has not been a hands-on parent with Kyron, due to her illness and her frustration with standing up to Kaine. I soooo wish she did not live in Medford. I think it's possible Kyron would still be at home. But how could she know it would lead to this?

Anyway, back to Terri. I think she has a personality disorder of some kind, probably borderline personality disorder, and is not emotionally attached to either of her children. She is emotionally attached to the opinions of others. She needs constant attention, and caring for children is a selfless job that requires putting someone else's needs before your own. We have lots of examples of this, but the most recent is Kaine saying in the interview that Baby K was playing in her room when he came home. Huh? A child that age playing alone in her room?

I still believe that LE is encouraging, or at least allowing, the family to call out people who have information. It would be so easy for the sheriff to come out, for example, in yesterday's press conference, and say, "We understand Kaine and Desiree's frustration. They are missing their little boy. We have asked them not to comment on the investigation. Please understand that their comments are not coming from us."

I do think someone else is involved also. Although Terri is capable of filching friends' gin and vodka on her own, I don't think she is smart enough and self-controlled enough to manage a kidnapping or murder and the ensuing activity on her own. Accident or premeditated? I don't know. I think, as I have from the very beginning, that it was either an accident or she had help with the planning to get Kyron from the school. I believe somebody might even have taken him from the school...

There's more, but I know I have written a lot of speculation that feels "gut right" to me that others will not find acceptable.

If am wrong about this, I am very angry at LE for telling the parents of Skyline that their kids are safe in that school.

Billylee
07-28-2010, 12:36 PM
I also have to wonder this. Why did TH hire a criminal attny when she has not been charged with anything? Obvious answer is she feels she will be charged. But why? Charged with what? Kidnapping? Murder? or just the MFH plot? It's too bad there isn't at least a statement coming forward from her attorney at this point. Like, "My client is innocent". But then, like I said, she hasn't even been charged with anything. So that being the case, why is she so quiet and basically on the lamb? Why not just make a statement "I do not know who took Kyron or what happened to him." This silence also bothers me and makes me look at her in a different light. Her silence also makes me suspicious that if she did take him, he's not deceased, but she's taken him away from KH for whatever reason. It's all just plain bizarre! Dumb question here, if Terri has hidden Kyron, let's say for what she deems his own protection, as his stepmother, who is/was responsible for his welfare, can she be charged with kidnapping?

Kat010
07-28-2010, 12:37 PM
ThoughtFox, I'd like to respectfully disagree with you on this: "Here's the court affidavit about the sexting and the restraining order against Terri. This is real evidence. The cell phones and text messages, as well as images, are part of the court record and the evidence and were viewed by a judge "in camera" or in his chambers."

(Bold not by me)

Firstly, "in camera" does not necessarily mean in his chambers. Its literal translation means "in private". For example, a judge might be contacted at home by LE and review documents there.

Maybe the judge was heading out to a big dinner at the country club. Or..whatever. Maybe the judge trusted the LE person who brought the request for RO.

We simply do not know the track record of the judge who issued the RO, how he/she received it and reviewed it, etc. Unless I've missed something, which is very likely.

Yesterday in the speculation thread I posted another theory about what might have happened if TH is involved (not the only possibility, just a different possibility). Here it is:

Connect The Dots-Working theories thread #2 - Page 14 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I also have to disagree with those who say that TH is the last person to have seen Kyron that day, or the last person who saw him alive. According to reports, he was seen by others after the time that she said that she left. And I don't think that being the last person, or next to last, or among the last 3, etc. necessarily indicates guilt. If it does, then anyone in their right minds would stop reporting crime or giving testimony if it turned out that they were the "last" person to see the victim. I agree that it's a red flag, but also remember this: the "last person" (in the family) to see John Walsh's son Adam Walsh was his mother.

There's now so much contradictory stuff out there that it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Do I think TH may have been involved? Yes. Do I know that? No.

Do I think someone else may have gotten involved with her? Yes. Do I know that? No.

Do I think someone else other than TH may be responsible? Yes. Do I know that? No.

Do I think that maybe a predator committed a crime of opportunity? Yes. Do I know that? No.

Do I think Michael Cook is lying, and may have had something to do with this, or may know more than he's said? Yes. Do I know that? No.

Do I think DDS may know something or may have been involved? May have, but don't know. The leaving her job suddenly, etc. doesn't bother me as my yard folks come and go, and sometimes leave suddenly. I've gone out to find tools left in the flower bed, and then they come back. Once they were called to another job real quick to help w/something.

Am I convinced by cellphone "pings"? No.

I'm so weary of this fence. But unless and until some solid hard evidence is presented, looks like I might as well try to find the least uncomfortable position.

Maybe this fence has sections that swing back and forth.

scotslass
07-28-2010, 12:41 PM
There's more, but I know I have written a lot of speculation that feels "gut right" to me that others will not find acceptable.

If am wrong about this, I am very angry at LE for telling the parents of Skyline that their kids are safe in that school.


respectively snipped and BBM

ME TOO!!!

gibby207
07-28-2010, 12:47 PM
I haven't seen any indication that anyone else would be. And, even though LE is tight lipped, I can see them flexing their muscles, and yes, it looks like she's responsible. MOO.

ThoughtFox
07-28-2010, 12:47 PM
ThoughtFox, I'd like to respectfully disagree with you on this: "Here's the court affidavit about the sexting and the restraining order against Terri. This is real evidence. The cell phones and text messages, as well as images, are part of the court record and the evidence and were viewed by a judge "in camera" or in his chambers."

(Bold not by me)

Firstly, "in camera" does not necessarily mean in his chambers. Its literal translation means "in private". For example, a judge might be contacted at home by LE and review documents there.

Maybe the judge was heading out to a big dinner at the country club. Or..whatever. Maybe the judge trusted the LE person who brought the request for RO.

We simply do not know the track record of the judge who issued the RO, how he/she received it and reviewed it, etc. Unless I've missed something, which is very likely.

And I'll just as respectfully disagree with you. :)

"In camera" means "In Chambers" in Latin - I put that there because often people don't know what that means. I presume that is where the judge looked at the cell phone pictures and text messages.

I see no reason to cast doubt on the judge, unless you can link to something showing he is negligent in other cases? Making him sound like some country club guy who didn't care when he issued a restraining order is just a way to say that he is against Terri, when you can't really know if that is true or not.

This is exactly what I mean by casting doubt on everyone from LE to the Judge to K&D. I just refuse to believe that everyone is lying except TH - that's probably just not true, imo.

But whatever - whether you think the judge did the right thing or not, my point is just that these cell phone records exist. I've counted more than five times today that people have posted that the Sexting was a myth made up by Kaine or the Media or even LE. That isn't true. We need to get the facts straight before we start making assumptions that everyone is lying except for TH.

meowmo
07-28-2010, 12:50 PM
I don't know that Terri is guilty of doing something criminal to Kyron, but it seems to me that so many of her behaviors have come together during that morning and the time since, all adding up to her probable guilt. Each thing by itself is not hugely suspect, but taken together, I think they are very convincing (though not proof, by any means.)

snipped... ITA steadfast, thank you for a clear and concise outline. and you are correct, it's quite convincing in the court of public opinion, but certainly not enough for a court of law...which, in the end, is what really matters here.

IMO, however, we may be looking at another Haleigh scenario... months and months will pass with little to no new info. an arrest looks imminent and then the case stalls again. i really hope i'm wrong, though.

i don't know if TH is a criminal mastermind and has just covered her tracks so thoroughly that they will never be unearthed or if LE is just not on the right track. climbing up and down this fence is TIRING! :nerves:

Billylee
07-28-2010, 12:56 PM
And I'll just as respectfully disagree with you. :)

"In camera" means "In Chambers" - I put that there because often people don't know what that means.

I see no reason to cast doubt on the judge, unless you can link to something showing he is negligent in other cases?

This is exactly what I mean by casting doubt on everyone from LE to the Judge to K&D. I just refuse to believe that everyone is lying except TH - that's probably just not true, imo.

But whatever - whether you think the judge did the right thing or not, my point is just that these cell phone records exist. I've counted more than five times today that people have posted that the Sexting was a myth made up by Kaine or the Media or even LE. That isn't true. We need to get the facts straight before we start making assumptions that everyone is lying except for TH.

Thank you for posting that document! I had not seen that the sexting and texting came from LE. Now we know and it just confirms more odd behavior by TH. I question her motive behind that behavior, is she some sexpot who can't control herself, even under such grave circumstances as your stepson is missing, or is it further stuff she's throwing at Kaine to say, "Here take this!" Sometimes, I get the feeling we're all just seeing a bitter, dysfunctional marriage coming to a horrible end. AND I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE USE CHILDREN TO GET WHAT THEY WANT IN A DIVORCE! It happens so often, and it just makes me sick! Anyway, thanks for posting that!

Kat010
07-28-2010, 01:02 PM
And I'll just as respectfully disagree with you. :)

"In camera" means "In Chambers" in Latin - I put that there because often people don't know what that means. I presume that is where the judge looked at the cell phone pictures and text messages.

I see no reason to cast doubt on the judge, unless you can link to something showing he is negligent in other cases? Making him sound like some country club guy who didn't care when he issued a restraining order is just a way to say that he is against Terri, when you can't really know if that is true or not.

This is exactly what I mean by casting doubt on everyone from LE to the Judge to K&D. I just refuse to believe that everyone is lying except TH - that's probably just not true, imo.

But whatever - whether you think the judge did the right thing or not, my point is just that these cell phone records exist. I've counted more than five times today that people have posted that the Sexting was a myth made up by Kaine or the Media or even LE. That isn't true. We need to get the facts straight before we start making assumptions that everyone is lying except for TH.

Hi Thought,

I wasn't casting asperions on the judge at all. I was simply describing how the system works. Judges even get called at home. (I have a friend who's a jduge, my next door neighbor and friend is a criminal attorney, and I've known specifically of cases where judges get called at home, documents are brought to them, etc. etc.) So we don't know how or where he reviewed the records, of if she's known as a jduge that's easy or hard to get ROs or search warrants from. They're human, and they vary.

Yes, I know what "in camera" means (Latin scholar here), and we can all, thank goodness, google! (I love Latin and studied it in college as well as that and Spanish in HS. Latin is a wonderful, logical language!)

Ooops. Back on track. But "in camera" in the working world means "in private" and that does not necessarily mean specifically within his chambers at the courthouse.

Yes, cellphone records for everyone in this case exist. No one is doubting that.

But let's not get off on that sidetrack. No one is saying that everyone except TH is lying. Not at all. What we do is sift, analyze, research, post theories or reactions, and then listen to the responses and sift, analyze, research, etc.

No one said nor implied that the judge was anti-Terri, etc. We're simply exploring possibilities.

STEADFAST
07-28-2010, 01:02 PM
snipped... ITA steadfast, thank you for a clear and concise outline. and you are correct, it's quite convincing in the court of public opinion, but certainly not enough for a court of law...which, in the end, is what really matters here.

IMO, however, we may be looking at another Haleigh scenario... months and months will pass with little to no new info. an arrest looks imminent and then the case stalls again. i really hope i'm wrong, though.

i don't know if TH is a criminal mastermind and has just covered her tracks so thoroughly that they will never be unearthed or if LE is just not on the right track. climbing up and down this fence is TIRING! :nerves:

Unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again, it doesn't take a criminal mastermind (or even a person of normal intelligence) to avoid being prosecuted for a murder or disappearance. I've seen many cases where the perp was sloppy, hinky, stupid, unorganized, etc, and no one is ever brought to justice.
But, on a hopeful note, LE has forever to solve a murder, and time does bring out new evidence much of the time.

WhyaDuck?
07-28-2010, 01:04 PM
Unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again, it doesn't take a criminal mastermind (or even a person of normal intelligence) to avoid being prosecuted for a murder or disappearance. I've seen many cases where the perp was sloppy, hinky, stupid, unorganized, etc, and no one is ever brought to justice.
But, on a hopeful note, LE has forever to solve a murder, and time does bring out new evidence much of the time.

BBM

ITA.

Sadly, though, time does make evidence degrade.

I hope they find their trail very soon.

YellowSubmarine
07-28-2010, 01:06 PM
I don't like being on the fence, I'd rather be on the Terri is guilty side. But try as I may I can't climb down. Oh, I go on walk about, but by the end of the day, I'm right back up here.

I'm right there with ya! I'm definitely leaning on the side of TH being guilty, but it seems my pants are caught on a pokey part of the fence . . . .

Her personality and odd, immoral actions certainly make me dislike her, but I don't take them into consideration when deciding if she's guilty or not. The one thing I can't get passed that makes me lean towards her guilt is the fact that she was unnaccounted for - er, I mean driving aimlessly on rural roads - at the same time Kyron disappeared. This we know for a fact. Then, if you add in two other possibilities (we haven't had proof of yet): she may have told the teacher Kyron had a dr appt that day and most likely tried to have Kaine murdered, it just SCREAMS guilt to me.

I know some people think the MFH shouldn't be taken into account, but I absolutely do. It goes to her morals and the fact she can coldly have a person murdered. Not just a person, her family. If she can do that, absolutely she could have done something to Kyron. Especially because doing so would hurt Kaine more than anything, which she obviously wanted to do if she was going to have him murdered.

IMO, if they can find her guilty of the MFH, they can most certainly go ahead and charge her with Kyrons disappearance. I mean, come one, she tries to have her husband murdered and then 6 months later his son ends up missing on her watch at a time she has no alibi? Hmmmm . . . .


ETA: The part that's keeping me stuck up on this pesky fence is the fact there is no evidence - no witnesses that saw Kyron with TH after leaving the school (that we know of) and no DNA evidence to suggest wrongdoing. So, for that, I just have to keep an open mind because it is possible.

Jo in Calif
07-28-2010, 01:08 PM
I'll just post my own opinion, which I realize may be in the minority view right now. But it will feel good to just blurt it out here. If I'm wrong later, I'll be one of the first to eat crow, I promise you.

But right now, I don't really like the fence very much, and unless there's big evidence out there to prove Terri wasn't involved - like finding another person who kidnapped Kyron - then she was the last person to see him alive.

So I haven't been on the fence for a long time and I don't see her as a victim. Frankly, I'm baffled why some people think murder for hire might be justified in a bad marriage - since when? A crime is a crime. Plotting is plotting. This whole thing is completely hinky to me.

The police aren't investigating Kaine as a bad father either. He is the one with custody of his daughter now, which Terri is not fighting against at all. Why should we assume that he was abusive and TH or her friends are hiding Kyron for his own good? And for what motive? Why not just contact the police and start proceedings against Kaine, then? But none of that has happened, so I think it's a big red herring. Otherwise she would have hidden her own precious daughter as well - but she didn't.

Here's the court affidavit about the sexting and the restraining order against Terri. This is real evidence. The cell phones and text messages, as well as images, are part of the court record and the evidence and were viewed by a judge "in camera" or in his chambers.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

These are not just rumors, but part of public court records and the judge saw the sexting photos and messages to both Cook and the landscaper before slapping a restraining order on Terri. He couldn't do that without just cause.

See the last two paragraphs and especially the last line in the image below - police have this evidence!

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151/rattlesnakeroot/HormanCase1.jpg

I like to look at what people do and not what they or their defense attorneys say.

Terri's story of the morning Kyron disappeared doesn't fit the circumstances. The police have said her cell phone records don't add up. Having not seen all the evidence we can't know for sure, but most of the time cell phones are indicators of where someone is at the time. They were used in the Peterson case and I don't know why we should just assume the police are wrong about her whereabouts.

I don't understand the whole thing about the doctor's note and the science fair, or why she didn't go back to get the project since she had the truck.

The police have her cell phone records with sexting and "lurid pictures" which is stated in court records. So she was being unfaithful with a landscaper who might have talked to her about murder for hire. Then she was quick to have an affair in the middle of the search for Kyron with her other sexting partner - an old friend of Kaine's! Sorry, but this is beginning to remind me of Scott Peterson and Amber Frey!

Kaine may not be a model husband, and it's a shame he left Desiree for Terri while she was pregnant - to me that's despicable if it's true. The whole extended family thing is sort of tragic and I feel sorry for the kids.

But that doesn't change the fact the Kaine and Desiree were NOT at the school that day and TH was. Trying to cast doubt on everyone else involved doesn't quite work in this case, anymore than it worked to blame homeless people in the Peterson case - and the defense tried that over and over.

JMO

Thank you for saving me a lot of typing, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Adding to this, I got somewhat of a smack down, for believing that LE enforcement had shared, with Kaine and D what they had uncovered in the investigation, this shows, as stated in the affidavit, that LE has giving them info on what they have uncovered.

Calliope
07-28-2010, 01:10 PM
I got this off net to describe sociopaths maybe it will help with understanding certain behaviors

Problem is, we have no idea if Terri displayed these behaviors or not. In fact (as your source brings up), her alleged inability to pass more than one polygraph makes me think not.

---

Like I said earlier today, I don't know what I think any more.

Last night, my head was spinning trying to make sense of all this, and I turned on the TV. The show was about half over, but as I started watching it was discussing a case of a 6 year old girl, Michelle Dorr, who went missing while on visitation with her father (mom had custody). His story was vague, a huge chunk of time unaccounted for, no real alibi. He was the last to have seen her alive. He failed polys. After this, police put on the pressure considering him the prime suspect. There was very strange behavior on his part, and with intense police pressure he (according to a psychiatrist) actually broke and ended up under psychiatric treatment. The girl's mom accused him of murdering Michelle, even to go as far as stating he told her he'd done it and where he'd buried the body. She made other public accusations that painted him as a monster. He even at one point confessed then recanted the confession. Police never had enough evidence to pin this on him, but although he remained free, he was a pariah. Everywhere he went, people knew he was the bastard who'd murdered his daughter and got away with it.

Only he didn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadden_Clark#Murders (warning, the entry is beyond disturbing)

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/clark/index_1.html

I saw this father being interviewed, telling what he went through during that time. To say he was haunted by this would be a major understatement, not only knowing how his little girl was murdered but that for years he was suspected of doing so. And I was struck at the similarities with this case, in how it was determined by so many that he was 'guilty' of killing his daughter.

Emeralgem
07-28-2010, 01:11 PM
Thank you for posting that document! I had not seen that the sexting and texting came from LE. Now we know and it just confirms more odd behavior by TH. I question her motive behind that behavior, is she some sexpot who can't control herself, even under such grave circumstances as your stepson is missing, or is it further stuff she's throwing at Kaine to say, "Here take this!" Sometimes, I get the feeling we're all just seeing a bitter, dysfunctional marriage coming to a horrible end. AND I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE USE CHILDREN TO GET WHAT THEY WANT IN A DIVORCE! It happens so often, and it just makes me sick! Anyway, thanks for posting that!

Characteristics and traits of a NPD may anwer the questions you have concerning the motive behind the behavior..JMO

PoppyH
07-28-2010, 01:15 PM
I believe Terri is responsible for Kyrons Dissappearance and his demise, I believe him to be deceased, god bless him.

cj1132
07-28-2010, 01:17 PM
Based on the "facts" I have, which are few, I cannot say if TH is guilty or innocent. For all I know, maybe someone with a grudge against TY, took him. Maybe someone with a grudge against TY wormed his or her way into TH's life. Maybe a total stranger took him. I just don't know.

I know the odds are slim that Kyron is still alive, but sometimes I think about that possibility. On one hand, I imagine a little boy who knows his stepmom did this to him and on the other hand, I see someone using all the news videos showing this little boy that everyone thinks his stepmom did it and he's never going to get away. I wonder which would be worse -- knowing that the stepmom that you loved did this to you or knowing that the stepmom you loved is being blamed for something she didn't do. I don't know. JMO

KopDog
07-28-2010, 01:19 PM
Maybe because I am a step-mom myself (no bio kids, just step to a teenager), I have been overly sensitive to accusations against TH and have really attempted to keep an open mind. God forbid any of us have a crisis in our lives and suddenly have to have an alibi for every second of the day. Trust me, every day we all have moments that we are not online, not talking on the phone, etc and just because someone didn't see you, doesn't mean you are up to no good. I was always put off by DY's comment that she knew from the 1st phone call that TH was responsible. Certainly tells me that they did not have the best relationship - and most certainly tainted/colored all information she had to process from the very beginning.

Very little information is actually fact in this case and evidenced by differing opinions by all the posters, there are multiple ways to interpret what we think we know.

One thing we know as fact, is that TH's lawyer has advised her to not fight the restraining order or the taking the house back order. These are facts. What we don't know for a fact is why. If they did fight them, TH would have to, under oath, discuss the murder for hire stuff and he clearly wants to avoid this fight in family court (vs the criminal court which will come if she is charged). I guess I get why he doesn't want to do it, but if I am a mom w/ a 20 mo daughter and I really had no part in murder for hire, I would be screaming from the rooftop. Bottom line - I am having a hard time making sense of where her head is on this one.

Regarding her involvement with the disappearance of Kyron - at this point I still say no. I might change my mind, but at this point 1) it just doesn't make sense why she would do it and I have seen too many pictures of happy family or examples of it (bowling the week before with one of his friends). they sorta seemed to have a normal, middle class life. you don't just wake up one morning and decide to kill a 7 year old unless you are mentally ill 2) no evidence that she did do it.

Emma Peel
07-28-2010, 01:22 PM
I want to know if the information Kaine demanded (through his divorce counsel) to know about - the $350,000 paid retainer - is accurate - as to the retainer paid to Houze.

Because...IMO...THAT would sure say lots about the emminent Houze's expectation for the amount of defending of Terri that he's going to be doing over the next year or more...

If that retainer amount is for real, then Houze knows things - either from Terri or from LE or from both - that indicate this is real, and Houze is ready for a long haul.

:cow:

1Chump
07-28-2010, 01:25 PM
I'll just post my own opinion, which I realize may be in the minority view right now. But it will feel good to just blurt it out here. If I'm wrong later, I'll be one of the first to eat crow, I promise you.

But right now, I don't really like the fence very much, and unless there's big evidence out there to prove Terri wasn't involved - like finding another person who kidnapped Kyron - then she was the last person to see him alive.

So I haven't been on the fence for a long time and I don't see her as a victim. Frankly, I'm baffled why some people think murder for hire might be justified in a bad marriage - since when? A crime is a crime. Plotting is plotting. This whole thing is completely hinky to me.

The police aren't investigating Kaine as a bad father either. He is the one with custody of his daughter now, which Terri is not fighting against at all. Why should we assume that he was abusive and TH or her friends are hiding Kyron for his own good? And for what motive? Why not just contact the police and start proceedings against Kaine, then? But none of that has happened, so I think it's a big red herring. Otherwise she would have hidden her own precious daughter as well - but she didn't.

Here's the court affidavit about the sexting and the restraining order against Terri. This is real evidence. The cell phones and text messages, as well as images, are part of the court record and the evidence and were viewed by a judge "in camera" or in his chambers.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

These are not just rumors, but part of public court records and the judge saw the sexting photos and messages to both Cook and the landscaper before slapping a restraining order on Terri. He couldn't do that without just cause.

See the last two paragraphs and especially the last line in the image below - police have this evidence!

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151/rattlesnakeroot/HormanCase1.jpg

I like to look at what people do and not what they or their defense attorneys say.

Terri's story of the morning Kyron disappeared doesn't fit the circumstances. The police have said her cell phone records don't add up. Having not seen all the evidence we can't know for sure, but most of the time cell phones are indicators of where someone is at the time. They were used in the Peterson case and I don't know why we should just assume the police are wrong about her whereabouts.

I don't understand the whole thing about the doctor's note and the science fair, or why she didn't go back to get the project since she had the truck.

The police have her cell phone records with sexting and "lurid pictures" which is stated in court records. So she was being unfaithful with a landscaper who might have talked to her about murder for hire. Then she was quick to have an affair in the middle of the search for Kyron with her other sexting partner - an old friend of Kaine's! Sorry, but this is beginning to remind me of Scott Peterson and Amber Frey!

Kaine may not be a model husband, and it's a shame he left Desiree for Terri while she was pregnant - to me that's despicable if it's true. The whole extended family thing is sort of tragic and I feel sorry for the kids.

But that doesn't change the fact the Kaine and Desiree were NOT at the school that day and TH was. Trying to cast doubt on everyone else involved doesn't quite work in this case, anymore than it worked to blame homeless people in the Peterson case - and the defense tried that over and over.

JMO

Thank you for posting this. It supports my opinion that I have no idea if TH is responsible or not because all we have heard are allegations. This motion is nothing but allegations. I have NEVER seen a motion that is all allegations without even one piece of supporting evidence. Just because an attorney says it, does not make it true.

After their allegations their should be a reference to the supporting documentation being attached as an exhibit. I can see if they had to keep the "evidence" sealed because of the LE investigation. But they have to "provide" the court with the evidence for the Judge to determine if the evidence supports the allegations. There should be references to attached exhibits and/or exhibit list but there is not.

IMO, when is this case going to be about Kyron. As it is, the focus has been placed on TH as a result of the divorce case that questions are not being asked. The media just sits there and reports whatever they are told to report.

IMO, As far as suspicious behavior of TH outside of allegations in the divorce papers, she has not done anything that others have not done. TH is not the only one who went to the gym although she no longer can. TH is not the only one who was not out searching for Kyron. TH was not the only one who refused to do interviews. Once TH was contained so she could not talk, is when interviews started.

IMO, the information we are receiving is being controlled to the point that we only hear what people want us to hear. The amount of control in this case regarding the media has caused me to have more questions and suspicions. Until I hear more, I cannot determine who is involved. The only ones I can rule out are the Mom and Step-Dad.

So I'll stay on the fence with my opinions that the media needs to start asking questions just like they would in any missing child case instead of accepting everything they are being told as true.

BeanE
07-28-2010, 01:30 PM
At this point, I *think* it is most likely a predator that is responsible. I just don't see information that is strong enough to convince me that it is more likely Terri.

Terri is in my second place for most likely.

If it's not a predator, and not Terri, my third place for most likely is... open for candidates.

I'm waiting for more credible information from a reliable source (lol) before I would be able to move Terri (or anyone else) into my #1 spot for most likely.

BeanE
07-28-2010, 01:36 PM
Here's the court affidavit about the sexting and the restraining order against Terri. This is real evidence. The cell phones and text messages, as well as images, are part of the court record and the evidence and were viewed by a judge "in camera" or in his chambers.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

These are not just rumors, but part of public court records and the judge saw the sexting photos and messages to both Cook and the landscaper before slapping a restraining order on Terri. He couldn't do that without just cause.

See the last two paragraphs and especially the last line in the image below - police have this evidence!

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151/rattlesnakeroot/HormanCase1.jpg

Regarding Terri and the landscaper, the only thing that document says is that there were overtures and concerns from Terri to the landscaper. The means of communicating those overture and concerns are never specified. It could have been verbally in person, verbally by phone, text messages, or smoke signals for all we know.

All references to sexting are clear to me to be in regards to MC, including the cell records viewed by the judge.

Calliope
07-28-2010, 01:37 PM
I want to know if the information Kaine demanded (through his divorce counsel) to know about - the $350,000 paid retainer - is accurate - as to the retainer paid to Houze.

Because...IMO...THAT would sure say lots about the emminent Houze's expectation for the amount of defending of Terri that he's going to be doing over the next year or more...

If that retainer amount is for real, then Houze knows things - either from Terri or from LE or from both - that indicate this is real, and Houze is ready for a long haul.

:cow:

Or... it's not real, LE has nothing on Terri but can't find evidence pointing to anyone else, and so this is going to drag on for a long, long time.

joshiesmom
07-28-2010, 01:39 PM
Until there is hard evidence that Terri did something to Kyron, I can't judge her as guilty.

She definitely has problems and does not appear to be someone I would want to associate with, but being dishonest & conniving does not automatically make her guilty of taking Kyron. It doesn't make her look good, but it doesn't prove a thing with regards to Kyron. All of the skeletons popping out of her closet are due to the scrutiny she's under. For all we know, Kaine has a bunch of skeletons in HIS closet, too, or Desiree or Tony... or you or me. I realize that the MFH allegation (still haven't seen any proof of that) is an ugly one & most people wouldn't have that particular 'skeleton' in their closet, but affairs & depression & drinking & dysfunctional family relationships? Yeah, I think lots of people would have skeletons like that, and if all of them were brought to light in a short period of time, it would make anyone look bad.

I do think that Terri's sexting is in poor taste & it makes me question WTH is going on in her head, but a part of me can sort of understand ~~ pretend she is innocent for a second... so... she's innocent but has lost her daughter, her stepson she loves, her friends, her financial security (husband), her life is a huge mess because EVERYONE is convinced she's guilty and she can't prove she's not and the stupid things she's done in the past are now coming back to haunt her and her lawyer is telling her to keep her mouth shut, so she can't defend herself against the horrible things being said about her at every turn. The emotional pain of being betrayed by everyone she thought was a friend leaves her reeling & maybe she is clinically depressed like Kaine said she is. So maybe she feels like, "Oh well... they all think I did it, but here's this guy who says he likes me, so I'll talk to him." Maybe she has a screwed-up reference for sex and she, like so many other women, thinks that she has to be willing to 'put out' to keep a man interested. It is not uncommon for a person to "rebound" and get involved in a sexual relationship right after breaking up with someone else. Maybe Terri had it in her mind that SHE would be the one to leave Kaine when the time was right for her and she was hurt that he left her first... you know, that mindframe that says, "I can leave him, but he can't be without me." So when he left her and filed for divorce, she could have been shaken by that, and thus, she responded to the first guy that came her way (MC). Is that inappropriate in light of Kyron's disappearance? Yes, in my opinion, it is. However, like I said, she'd already lost everything, so I'm guessing her emotional state wasn't the best, and that could have affected her judgment.

I'm NOT trying to make excuses for her... honestly, I'm not. I am just explaining why I can't be sure that every stupid thing Terri's done shows that she is definitely involved in Kyron's disappearance.

I don't have a lovefest going on for Terri at all, but I can't get past the thought that if LE had ANY proof that she was involved in Kyron's disappearance, they'd have arrested her by now. I freely admit this is only the 2nd case I've ever followed in-depth (the first was Nadia Bloom & that was different), so I don't know if LE routinely knows for certain that a person is guilty BEFORE they arrest them, but I've always thought that if they knew you did something, they'd arrest you for it; therefore, it seems as though while Terri has done a lot of things that are viewed by public majority as reprehensible, she might not actually be guilty where it pertains to Kyron's disappearance.

I think that DY desperately wants to blame SOMEONE because she feels guilty for her own past choices with regards to Kyron and blaming someone else is a predictable action. I do wonder if a lot of her certainty that TH is responsible is colored by her personal opinion of TH versus any kind of factual information. I think it's obvious that DY would blame TH even if TH wasn't actually guilty, and now she has a public platform for getting out all of the things she dislikes about TH that she's bottled up for all these years. Shrug... I don't know... I just get the sense that some of DY's vehemence against TH is influenced by past emotions/experiences rather than what is happening right now. That's understandable, of course. I know I'd be ready to throttle anyone who was entrusted to take care of my child if something happened on their watch whether or not they had anything to do with it, and that is why I sympathize with DY, but I'm not going to judge TH as guilty just because DY/TY/KH does.

Anyway, bottom line for me is that the speculation, while thought-provoking & very interesting, is still just that ~ people bouncing theories & ideas around ~ and I don't want to come down from the fence on one side or the other until some concrete evidence gets put out on the table. I won't be surprised if TH is arrested eventually, but I also won't be surprised if it comes to light that TH had nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance. At this point, I feel it could go either way, but all I really want is for Kyron to be found.

jessicat
07-28-2010, 01:41 PM
I haven't read thru all the posts here but I do want to say this as far as TH is concerned...I know I posted this very early on but here goes again. I am a stepmom of 2 kids. My husband and I also have a child together. That being said...when we were pregnant..wait..when I was pregnant:) my stepson who was 7 at the time was so worried we would forget about him and pay more attention to the "new" baby. We had to constantly reassure him that he would not be treated differently and in fact the first time he came to see me at the hospital we immediately let him hold his baby brother. Now 4 yrs later they are very, very close and he is an awesome big bro. Now for the opposite...my stepsons mom who I might add has given us so much trouble..she is now remarried but was with this winner of a guy for awhile b4 getting married..anyway she had the kids start calling him dad and on 2 diff occasions asked my hubby if he would sign his rights over (yes I just typed that). Unbelievable..but to me what she wanted and still does to this day it seems is to "start over" with this guy and forget she was ever married to my husband and make a new family for herself. Its kinda weird. So what I am getting at is maybe TH and KH had their baby, maybe TH started to treat little Kyron differently, maybe TH wanted KH to be all to herself and little baby K. In other words she just wants her little family and nobody else and getting Kyron out of the pic is the answer...also her son is not in the home either. I hope I'm making sense here. If not let me know and I will see if I can say it differently. I'm on and off the fence too at times. I do know from my own personal experience there can be some strange and crazy reasons why people do/act/say the way they do and not all of them are within the law..KWIM?

Cheewawa007
07-28-2010, 01:42 PM
OT:
Steadfast; I'm sitting at work reading as a guest, saw the picture of your dog on the chair with WS on the laptop and had to log in to say - HOW PRECIOUS!!!!!

tiredblondy
07-28-2010, 01:45 PM
Ok I've known a person like Terri and I keep asking myself what did she have in mind if she is behind this??? For example I can see if Kyron has been murdered it could have been for revenge but what was her plan if she has just hidden him???Was it so she could be the one to find him??? If she was behind a kidnapping or hiding him why??? What would be the gain to that unless she found him and got all the glory.

nursebeeme
07-28-2010, 01:45 PM
THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR THE MEEK!

If you get upset about other opinions that differ from your own, then please exit quietly. :blushing:

This is for the debate of TH's involvement. There is a lot of spattering of this topic through the threads and it's getting distracting.

Remember, keep your posts from addressing other posters directly when you have an opposing view.
Thank you Kimster for this thread. I quote your opening post because I love it: "this thread is not for the meek"

I have never been sitting on the fence. I believe Terri did this and it was planned.

While not all of what leads me to believe the above comes directly from LE, I believe personally that things "leaked" to the media come from somewhere and so I take that information into account.

-my suspicion of TMH started on the day that I saw her picture on the LE flier

-my suspicion was further hammered home when I heard about the murder for hire plot. A human being who will stoop to that level is capable of anything.

-than a judge grants a restraining order against her and Kaine files for divorce. The reason: his wife was trying to kill him!

-than there were the polys

-and than she was sexting to Kaine's high school friend and sending sexually graphic photos of herself to him... and in court documents they were similar to those she sent the landscaper she tried to hire to kill her husband

-body language at the presser...

-LE telling the public nothing to fear at the school and that this is an isolated incident

-a judge than signs search warrants (probable cause needed for those!) for the homes of her friends.

-one of her friends has since lawyered up and has been to a GJ... and she didn't testify. I personally think she will testify later with transactional immunity

and gosh there is sooooo much more but these are just a few reasons why I am ever convinced that TMH is the person with the means to do this. After hearing in the audio interview about her problems with drugs, alcohol, and lying I am really starting to get a feel of her personality and think she seriously has a lot of personality issues.

note to the fence sitters: I respect your opinions and when this is all said and done if I am wrong I will be the first to admit that I was wrong.

At this time, I am convinced more than ever that Terri was responsible.


(((big fat mooo on top :-)))

tiredblondy
07-28-2010, 01:46 PM
OH and I forgot to ask BeanE where can I get a tinfoil hat???

mydailyopinions
07-28-2010, 01:49 PM
Here is what I think at this point:

I think that Terri is up to her neck in Kyron's disappearance. I personally believe it is due to an affair that is not with MC, I believe that 3 weeks after Kyron went missing she started worrying that LE would find out about her affair with another person, and because of their possible plans for the future, she tried hiding what was going on in that relationship by faking another relationship.. Kyron possibly knew something or seen something that spooked her to set her plan into action.

If my child was missing, the last thing that I would be worried about is how much LE is focusing on me. The process of elimination is what all parents go through in this situation, and my opinion is that she has fully acted as if she is guilty. I thoroughly understand being in shock on day 1 enough to maybe not remember what I was doing all day, but for goodness sakes, Cindy Anthony was able to recall almost an entire month of daily activities...why can't this woman recall one day?

I am one of those who goes by my first reaction to any case...if something seems off, it more than likely is. MSM had nothing to do with the way I feel other than airing the first news conference with Desiree, Tony, Kaine and Terri. Terri IMHO clearly was not acting as a mother of a child, nor stepchild who had been missing, she was faking every single lick of it.

ThoughtFox
07-28-2010, 01:54 PM
Regarding Terri and the landscaper, the only thing that document says is that there were overtures and concerns from Terri to the landscaper. The means of communicating those overture and concerns are never specified. It could have been verbally in person, verbally by phone, text messages, or smoke signals for all we know.

All references to sexting are clear to me to be in regards to MC, including the cell records viewed by the judge.

I believe Terri's text messages or at least phone calls are what led police to this landscaper guy. They didn't know about him before looking at her cellphone - they went to him, not the other way around. And then they found Michael Cook, and she's doing the same behavior with him - it shows a pattern, which I believe is their point in the court papers.

Also, she waited just a few days after leaving home before she actually got into a sexual relationship with Michael Cook. I believe that is by his admission - plus the hundreds of text messages and photographs of people in "undress."

Hundreds of text messages - not smoke signals. ;) Was her mind on these kids while she was writing hundreds of text messages to a man who is not her husband? The texting happened while the search for Kyron was going on!

1Chump
07-28-2010, 01:56 PM
Yes, it is real and it happened. The sexting is listed in court filings as a reason for a restraining order keeping TH away from the house and her daughter. It says the proof is in the cell phone records that are part of the body of evidence.

You can read the affidavit. If this was in question, the restraining order probably wouldn't have been okay'd by a judge. He viewed the cell phone records "in camera" or in his chambers.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

I'll add that to my post if it isn't too late to edit.

IMO, the sexting etc...is all allegations that not only do not need proven for the Order that is being requesting but completely unnecessary for the Order.

The Order has not been entered. The motion is asking for an Order. Read the Order. The Order is about the allegation that TH showed the restraining order to MC and allowed him to take a picture.

There is nothing in the Order about any of the other allegations of emails and sexting. So there is nothing to prove regarding those allegations. IMO, those were listed strictly for public speculation.

On page 3, line 17 of the affidavit states:

"Petitioner's attorney has also reviewed Mr. Cook's work cell phone records." That is the only time that the attorney is referenced as having personal knowledge. Everything else are allegations by Kaine that have nothing to do with the Order.

The "in camera" review would only pertain to the alledged "photographs" of the restraining order. That is the only documents they need for their motion that TH showed the restraining order to MC and allowed him to copy them.

IMO, even if TH's attorney requested to see the documents relating to all the other allegations, the SA would fight it. IMO, the SA would also win. Because any documents are part of an on-going investigation and has absoluting nothing to do with the Order that is being requested.

tlcya
07-28-2010, 01:57 PM
I have been very vocal about my position on the fence and my exit from the fencetop (my hiney was starting to get numb!) the other day to land on the Terri is responsible for whatever has happened to Kyron in some way side.

That being said I want to say IMO terms like narcisist, sociopath, psychopath, bi-polar, PPD, etc get thrown around an awful lot here at Websleuths. And there are such perps out there. But it has become way too predictible that no matter the case, no matter the thread, someone is gonna whip out the sociopath, (or any of the others listed above) card.

I myself have named one person in another case as a sociopath (ICA) IMOO and I feel very comfortable making that armchair diagnosis based on her very well documented behaviors and letters written in her own hand.

Quite frankly, I think sometimes it is easier for us to distance ourselves from perps and their bad behavior by deeming them sociopath (or any of the other disorders etc listed above). Not everyone who does something that is incomprehensible to us has any one of those mental health illnesses, conditions, or personailty disorders. Sometimes, crappy people just do crappy things.

Sorry, not trying to pick a fight but am a little tired of every single perp being "webdiagnosed" with some drastic mental issue.

cypress
07-28-2010, 01:58 PM
I have serious doubts about Terri being involved in and responsible for Kyron's disappearance, and here are a few of the reasons why --

The more Desiree and Kaine talk, the more I believe LE probably has very little evidence against Terri and, in some cases, I wonder if the "evidence" was manipulated in a legal way by LE in an effort to extract a confession from Terri. I'm thinking specifically about the LDT, especially in light of LE's recent comments pointing out the LDTs are used as tools. There was an air of backtracking and distancing in their statement, IMHO. If Terri told LE she was driving baby K around Portland to soothe an earache, I admit the alibi sounds weak. The thing is, the alibi is plausible, IMHO. I know people who use rides in the car to soothe their children; it's a very popular way to soothe children in Hollywood films. It's not unheard of or all that unusual, IMHO. It's only weak because it's not verifiable, but it's still plausible. Perhaps LE was less than truthful about results of the LDT because they didn't believe her alibi. There are reasonable explanations for Terri's behavior that day, though, especially if you believe baby K is probably teething which explains why she'd drive around, not go to the doctor, and would go to the gym. Babies are amazingly resilient, and can go from fussy to fine and vice versa, very, very quickly.

If LE had a solid case, in the press conferences, Desiree wouldn't rely so much on her mothering instincts and what I believe are superficial inconsistencies. The more Desiree talks, the more apparent it becomes that she's held a grudge against Terri for years, and regardless of whether or not the grudge is warranted, it's going to influence and perhaps even shape her opinions about Terri's behavior. Desiree was very vocal about Kyron crying and wanting to live with her and Tony, and the inference was that Terri was somehow responsible for Kyron's unhappiness, but then we found out that Kyron cried when he went to Desiree's. DY and KH later admitted he was having difficulty transitioning. The facts present a completely different situation, but the press and a lot of the public will never read that Kyron cried when he left Terri and Kaine and had to visit Desiree, only that "missing boy cried when he had to go home to stepmother!" or whatever other salacious headline is used.

There are a lot of accusations, a lot of implications, that are slowly being clarified or eaten away at, IMHO. And, IMHO, when you get to the root of why Desiree believes Terri is responsible, it's because Desiree has instincts and Terri didn't behave and react in the way Desiree thought she should.

LE has no evidence of a murder scene. None. Terri is not some hardened criminal with years of experience in pulling off crimes such as this one. If Terri is responsible, she abducted and murdered a child she'd raised for most of his life. Her biological children were attached to this child. She was married to this child's father. Killing him, seeing his lifeless, perhaps bloody body, discarding him somehow, all with her daughter nearby, is unfathomable to me, especially since she then carried on in a completely normal fashion, totally calm, acting in character, for the rest of the day. And, then, there's no physical evidence. None in the truck. None on her clothes. None in the house. After forty years of living a normal life, she's able to pull off this crime leaving behind no physical evidence, carrying on about her day, going to the gym, arriving home, sending e-mails to Desiree, posting pictures on Facebook (and it's interesting to note that Terri didn't rush right home and post the pictures to establish some sort of alibi, she posted them hours later).

As much as some are hopeful, I think most would admit it's unlikely Kyron is alive. Hell, I'm hopeful, but I believe it's highly improbable that Kyron is alive. If he's dead and Terri killed him, there should be evidence even without a body, IMHO.

Emeralgem
07-28-2010, 01:59 PM
Thank you Kimster for this thread. I quote your opening post because I love it: "this thread is not for the meek"

I have never been sitting on the fence. I believe Terri did this and it was planned.

While not all of what leads me to believe the above comes directly from LE, I believe personally that things "leaked" to the media come from somewhere and so I take that information into account.

-my suspicion of TMH started on the day that I saw her picture on the LE flier

-my suspicion was further hammered home when I heard about the murder for hire plot. A human being who will stoop to that level is capable of anything.

-than a judge grants a restraining order against her and Kaine files for divorce. The reason: his wife was trying to kill him!

-than there were the polys

-and than she was sexting to Kaine's high school friend and sending sexually graphic photos of herself to him... and in court documents they were similar to those she sent the landscaper she tried to hire to kill her husband

-body language at the presser...

-LE telling the public nothing to fear at the school and that this is an isolated incident

-a judge than signs search warrants (probable cause needed for those!) for the homes of her friends.

-one of her friends has since lawyered up and has been to a GJ... and she didn't testify. I personally think she will testify later with transactional immunity

and gosh there is sooooo much more but these are just a few reasons why I am ever convinced that TMH is the person with the means to do this. After hearing in the audio interview about her problems with drugs, alcohol, and lying I am really starting to get a feel of her personality and think she seriously has a lot of personality issues.

note to the fence sitters: I respect your opinions and when this is all said and done if I am wrong I will be the first to admit that I was wrong.

At this time, I am convinced more than ever that Terri was responsible.
(((big fat mooo on top :-)))

nursebeeme, thank you for typing all that out..I am on the same page as to WHY I suspect her....
And like you, I am now convinced more than ever TMH is the one who is responsible for whatever it is that has happened to Kyron..JMO

SusieMom
07-28-2010, 02:00 PM
I just don't know... What "evidence" there is so shaky.. its hardly enough to be confident about, most of it IS rumors, bits and pieces of facts tangled in web of assumptions.

But then I try to imagine myself in her shoes if they are the shoes of an innocent woman. Ok... so this weird thing happens.. I leave my kid at school, run some errands, drive around, go the gym, come home update my facebook, hang out the rest of the afternoon... (I mean what did she do? Fold some laundry? Watch a soap? organize the linen closet? ) then walk with my husband and kid down to the bus stop but the other kid doesn't get off, starting into motion this nightmare that only keeps getting worse and worse. I can't say for sure what I'd do in that situation, but only considering what we are confident is TRUE about what SHE'S done (or not done) there came a point where I KNOW that whatever I would do would be very different than what she's doing. I can't imagine even *thinking* about the gym right after a child who was in my care went missing. I CAN imagine failing a lie detector (b/c they are scary to me and I'm easily made anxious by scary things plus I know I would be over analyzing every single question, worrying that somehow maybe i was accidentally lying) but if I had, I am certain that no lawyer in the land could keep me from going before any media who would show up to hear me and BEGGING people on my hands and knees to keep looking for the real kidnapper. I would NEVER stop trying to somehow, some way convince people that it wasn't me and that focusing on me wasn't going to help the child AT ALL but instead be helping the real culprit possibly continue to harm that child. I can imagine saying I don't care what happens to me for doing this, I don't care how much I should just shut up and wait to see how much evidence they can collect.... no way no how would I stay sequestered away b/c truly.. at this point? If you were her and innocent, would you have any faith whatsoever in the ability of the police to find Kyron? Would you not think.. at this point the only way we're going to find him is if somebody else is looking for him and maybe I can motivate someone to at least try?

And if that isn't enough strange choices that she's been making, the "sexting" thing with this guy she supposedly only just met is beyond bizarre and inappropriate on so many levels.... I can't even fathom why an innocent woman, who would presumably be trapped in this nightmare and wracked with guilt, consumed with worry, if not for Kyron, then surely for herself and for Baby K (I mean, seriously can you imagine how anguished you'd be?) would find time to take explicit pictures of herself to send to this new guy friend. There is just no way to find any decency or logic or any kind of justification for that. A new relationship.. sure I can see that... he's there with a hug, holding her hand, being her friend... I can see how things might progress down a romantic path.. even possibly to include getting physical, but not to include the sexting... that is just not something a person in severe emotional distress would do... its something you do when you are infatuated, in the grip of lust towards someone, which is much more closely associated with feelings of happiness rather than what I think an innocent woman in this situation would be feeling.

so... really I think it comes down to this: if it looks,walks, & quacks like a duck, its probably a duck but if its not, its the weirdest non-duck ever, some sort of creature that nobody's ever seen before.... and really, what are the chances of that?

Cheewawa007
07-28-2010, 02:01 PM
I'm still sitting pretty on the fence, cheering each side on (GO TEAMS!!!!) because I honestly cannot make up my mind - guilty or innocent. With that being said, TH is either the luckiest human being on the face of this earth by not leaving a shred of evidence behind to link her in some way, or the most unlucky human being on the face of this earth with the coincidences and tongue wagging stories/rumors, etc.
I have been thinking - could she and KH have been "swingers"????

tiredblondy
07-28-2010, 02:02 PM
But what did Terri have to gain from a kidnapping or disappearance of Kyron??

nursebeeme
07-28-2010, 02:03 PM
:woohoo:
But what did Terri have to gain from a kidnapping or disappearance of Kyron??
I think it somehow relates to the same motive she had (((whatever that could be)))) for trying to hire someone to kill her husband.

She wants to ultimately hurt him (Kaine).

MOO

eta: I don't know HOW that woooohoooo man got at the top of my post! I didn't put him there~ really I dint~

cindysue
07-28-2010, 02:03 PM
IMO I think that if she had an accomplice sooner or later the info comes out, friendships deteriorate , maybe they want money to keep quiet or favors etc. And under the constant eye of the law that will be eternally on them. They might crack. I think it's would a lot easier to get away with crime if you were in it alone and I don't think that's the case

tehcloser
07-28-2010, 02:04 PM
But what did Terri have to gain from a kidnapping or disappearance of Kyron??

Attention? Hurting DY and KH? Money? I have no clue. :banghead:

tiredblondy
07-28-2010, 02:05 PM
Don't get me wrong I'm sure she is involved and probably orchestrated the whole thing I just don't get why??? Of course I never get people who think like that!

kant
07-28-2010, 02:07 PM
Thank you for posting this. It supports my opinion that I have no idea if TH is responsible or not because all we have heard are allegations. This motion is nothing but allegations. I have NEVER seen a motion that is all allegations without even one piece of supporting evidence. Just because an attorney says it, does not make it true.

After their allegations their should be a reference to the supporting documentation being attached as an exhibit. I can see if they had to keep the "evidence" sealed because of the LE investigation. But they have to "provide" the court with the evidence for the Judge to determine if the evidence supports the allegations. There should be references to attached exhibits and/or exhibit list but there is not.

IMO, when is this case going to be about Kyron. As it is, the focus has been placed on TH as a result of the divorce case that questions are not being asked. The media just sits there and reports whatever they are told to report.

IMO, As far as suspicious behavior of TH outside of allegations in the divorce papers, she has not done anything that others have not done. TH is not the only one who went to the gym although she no longer can. TH is not the only one who was not out searching for Kyron. TH was not the only one who refused to do interviews. Once TH was contained so she could not talk, is when interviews started.

IMO, the information we are receiving is being controlled to the point that we only hear what people want us to hear. The amount of control in this case regarding the media has caused me to have more questions and suspicions. Until I hear more, I cannot determine who is involved. The only ones I can rule out are the Mom and Step-Dad.

So I'll stay on the fence with my opinions that the media needs to start asking questions just like they would in any missing child case instead of accepting everything they are being told as true.
I agree. IDK either what TH may have done or not done. There is just something that is bugging me that feels like a "there's more to this" kind of thing.

Also, was TH the last person to see Kyron? How is that possible if he was "last seen," according to TH (and others,) at the school? walking to (into?) class? Or did I misunderstand something?

moo
.

tiredblondy
07-28-2010, 02:09 PM
Ok thanks guys, and of course
She who has controlled and manipulated everyone from day one never considered the consequences if her plan didn't work. Just wondered if someone had ideas I hadn't considered . Thanks again for your input.

debs
07-28-2010, 02:11 PM
........or why she didn't go back to get the project since she had the truck.

Thanks for your whole post, but addressing this point only:

In the beginning, I can imagine she told a lie about where she was for the unverified time, and based upon her proclivity to have inappropriate emotional attachments to others (the LS and DC), it is more than likely there was yet another person who she was involved with, and in order to not be found out about THAT, she lied. Whether we worry about ourselves in a missing person's case or not, the fact remains people lie to cover their own ass. This lie does not effect the outcome that Kyron is missing and perhaps by now she did come clean with the information. What we don't know is whether she has divulged to LE that she was out having a nooner with someone. Now her marriage is down around her ankles, we can see that IF that's the truth, it won't do anything more than add to Kaine's defense in the divorce case. But maybe that's why she lied about that time, and why, when driving the truck in order to pick up the tree frog diorama, she didn't in fact pick it up. Perhaps she thought they'd just get it later. Maybe time got away from her and she made the decision to get baby K home and wait for Kaine and then just swing by the school and grab it on their way out of town. But maybe she didn't want to add to the whole horrible mess by admitting to an affair that same day.

It is plausible, and therefore, without Terri's defense of her actions that day, remains as likely as anything else, which even in the court of public opinion, results in reasonable doubt that she had anything to do with Kyron's disappearance.

BeanE
07-28-2010, 02:21 PM
I believe Terri's text messages or at least phone calls are what led police to this landscaper guy. They didn't know about him before looking at her cellphone - they went to him, not the other way around. And then they found Michael Cook, and she's doing the same behavior with him - it shows a pattern, which I believe is their point in the court papers.

Also, she waited just a few days after leaving home before she actually got into a sexual relationship with Michael Cook. I believe that is by his admission - plus the hundreds of text messages and photographs of people in "undress."

Hundreds of text messages - not smoke signals. ;) Was her mind on these kids while she was writing hundreds of text messages to a man who is not her husband? The texting happened while the search for Kyron was going on!

I think you may have misunderstood me. I absolutely agree that the sexting between MC & Terri occurred, and that the document supports that. I said nothing about what happened between MC & Terri in my post. I was referring solely to the landscaper.

cakegirl0905
07-28-2010, 02:22 PM
I am 99.9% sure she is responsible.

The FB posts made me uncomfortable, but I ignored that.
The presser and her body language set off every hinky sensor I have.
The doctor's appointment
Driving the truck.
The MFH plot also makes me think she hates Kaine so much she wanted to hurt him.
Sauvie island (I know not confirmed, but still.)
The sexting while a child is missing.
DeDe.

There are too many weird things. I know this is all circumstantial, but I truly believe it's her.

Snowball58
07-28-2010, 02:23 PM
Terri sticks out like a sore thumb to me, even if I remove everything DY and KH have ever said about her. If I look at the direction of the police investigation, her odd behavior at the presser, her timeline, DS's timeline, the sexting, MFH sting, court documents (RO, etc.), lack of any public pleas for Kyron or even statements to defend herself, her not contesting the RO, DS appearing at grand jury, what her friend and father have said in interviews, hiring a criminal defense attorney, etc. And if I also take into account all of the coincidences that would have had to take place in order for Kyron to disappear that particular day makes Terri unlucky to the point of disbelief, if we are to think she's uninvolved (CSI shirt, science fair day, vehicle change, confusion about doctor's appointment, sketchy timeline/alibi that day, etc.)

Does that mean she's for sure guilty? Nope, but just like with Scott Peterson and the Cumming/Croslin crew (among others), Terri sticks out to me (and has from day 1) and I believe she is either directly or indirectly responsible for whatever has happened to precious Kyron.

Now, off to go research the two reported white truck sightings (one the morning of the disappearance near Logie Trail, IIRC, and the other ones by Jim Kelley, to see how they might fit into Terri and DS's reported timelines for that day.)

cluciano63
07-28-2010, 02:23 PM
One thing I don't agree with several posters on is that if Terri is guilty of trying to have Kaine killed, she would be capable of anything. Wanting and even trying to arrange to have a spouse removed/erased is not the same kind of mindset, to me, as killing a child, even one belonging to that spouse. I have heard of cases of battling spouses killing a child to prevent the other one from having custody, but I do not believe this was an issue here as Terri was never in line for custody of Kyron. And what would be the point of "stashing" him? The only good reason I can think of is if Kaine were to be the immediate suspect and there was no way that way going to happen with this "plan."

So at this point I am not convinced Terri is involved with Kyron's disappearance. I will be convinced if Dede or someone else, either a nuetral party of a friend of Terri's, indicates that they have knowledge of her being involved or if LE finds a witness who can swear she left the school with Kyron.

Emma Peel
07-28-2010, 02:26 PM
Thanks for your whole post, but addressing this point only:

In the beginning, I can imagine she told a lie about where she was for the unverified time, and based upon her proclivity to have inappropriate emotional attachments to others (the LS and DC), it is more than likely there was yet another person who she was involved with, and in order to not be found out about THAT, she lied. Whether we worry about ourselves in a missing person's case or not, the fact remains people lie to cover their own ass. This lie does not effect the outcome that Kyron is missing and perhaps by now she did come clean with the information. What we don't know is whether she has divulged to LE that she was out having a nooner with someone. Now her marriage is down around her ankles, we can see that IF that's the truth, it won't do anything more than add to Kaine's defense in the divorce case. But maybe that's why she lied about that time, and why, when driving the truck in order to pick up the tree frog diorama, she didn't in fact pick it up. Perhaps she thought they'd just get it later. Maybe time got away from her and she made the decision to get baby K home and wait for Kaine and then just swing by the school and grab it on their way out of town. But maybe she didn't want to add to the whole horrible mess by admitting to an affair that same day.

It is plausible, and therefore, without Terri's defense of her actions that day, remains as likely as anything else, which even in the court of public opinion, results in reasonable doubt that she had anything to do with Kyron's disappearance.

I don't understand. Are you also proposing Terri simply does not know the name or how to contact her nooner amour? And said Nooner-amour would not go to LE?

Or are you saying it's better to pay Houze $350,000 than to give LE the name of her Nooner?

Well, that might be better for Houze, but I mean what's better for Terri now?

To clear herself of these charges and get on with her inevitable divorce or to preserve the secrecy of her Nooner that day?

IMO, were this the case, LE would have her Nooner truth and would have alibied her by now. I bet she'd be quite thrilled if she actually had a Nooner-amour that would vouch for her at this point. The GJ is in session, after all.

I'm thinking I don't understand your entire thought process here...are you speculating that she arranged for the kidnapping of Kyron and then had a Nooner whilst celebrating said kidnapping, so she still needs Houze?

Because if that's the case, I actually could run with you on that theory. :)

tiredblondy
07-28-2010, 02:27 PM
OH my goodness...I just thought of something. If Terri's purpose was to hurt and cause pain to Kaine and Desiree for a long long time she is still in control and manipulating! (This would also cover a ransom plan gone wrong.)

cakegirl0905
07-28-2010, 02:27 PM
Attention? Hurting DY and KH? Money? I have no clue. :banghead:

Maybe...this thought just occurred to me...maybe she believed Kaine and Desiree were having an affair. I don't believe they were, but maybe TH was so delusional she believed it.

Desiree is beautiful and the exwife whose husband she stole. Maybe she could never live up to Desiree? And as her looks faded and she gained all the weight she became more and more jealous. A cheating husband is motive for MFH and when that fell through, what else could she do to hurt them? Nothing worse in the world than taking someone's child.

Snowball58
07-28-2010, 02:30 PM
One thing I don't agree with several posters on is that if Terri is guilty of trying to have Kaine killed, she would be capable of anything. Wanting and even trying to arrange to have a spouse removed/erased is not the same kind of mindset, to me, as killing a child, even one belonging to that spouse. I have heard of cases of battling spouses killing a child to prevent the other one from having custody, but I do not believe this was an issue here as Terri was never in line for custody of Kyron. And what would be the point of "stashing" him? The only good reason I can think of is if Kaine were to be the immediate suspect and there was no way that way going to happen with this "plan."

So at this point I am not convinced Terri is involved with Kyron's disappearance. I will be convinced if Dede or someone else, either a nuetral party of a friend of Terri's, indicates that they have knowledge of her being involved or if LE finds a witness who can swear she left the school with Kyron.

I respectfully disagree. I think a person who is capable of a MFH is also capable of exacting revenge in other ways. As a "for instance" which I'm completely making up, what if she wanted Kaine dead via MFH, but couldn't get it to pan out. So she cooked up another way to get rid of him for insurance money, or whatever. Disappear Kyron then later fake Kaine's suicide (grief over a stolen or murdered child, leaves her and Baby K alone as sole beneficiaries of insurance money, maybe a lawsuit against the school, etc.) It's far fetched, but my point is that Kyron's disappearance may be completely related to the original MFH plan. It's definitely relevant and gives insight into her personality, and I do think that a person capable of hiring a hit man to kill her husband is capable of myriad other heinous things.

Emeralgem
07-28-2010, 02:32 PM
Ok thanks guys, and of course
She who has controlled and manipulated everyone from day one never considered the consequences if her plan didn't work. Just wondered if someone had ideas I hadn't considered . Thanks again for your input.

Catch 22 situation.. Their arrogant thinking tricks them into believing they don't have to concern themselves with consequences of their actions ....That is one of the traits of having a narcissistic personality disorder...JMO

tiredblondy
07-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Maybe...this thought just occurred to me...maybe she believed Kaine and Desiree were having an affair. I don't believe they were, but maybe TH was so delusional she believed it.

Desiree is beautiful and the exwife whose husband she stole. Maybe she could never live up to Desiree? And as her looks faded and she gained all the weight she became more and more jealous. A cheating husband is motive for MFH and when that fell through, what else could she do to hurt them? Nothing worse in the world than taking someone's child.


Or what if Terri thought Kaine was having an affair with someone else period?

After all if she was involved with Kaine when he was married to Desiree this would be the ultimate slap in the face to have the tables turned on her! my opinion only

What is that saying? Hell hath no fury like a scorned woman??? or something like that?

YellowSubmarine
07-28-2010, 02:38 PM
Everyone on here has such great points! Which is exactly why I can't seem to get off this dang fence! Come on, people, I want down!!!

I honestly do think it's her (80% of the time) but due to my open-mind and the lack of physical or eyewitness evidence, I just think "You never know". I feel like I'm SURE it's her, no doubt. But I know parents are accused and found not to have had any involvement, so I'm just not ready yet to point that permanent finger.

For me, the strongest evidence she's involved is the fact she doesn't have a solid alibi at the time he went missing. Everything else sends up my hinky meter, but maybe she's just nuts.

I so wish we could get an answer regarding the supposed dr appt. For me, that would be all I need to know absolutely, for sure, without a doubt it was TH.

cakegirl0905
07-28-2010, 02:40 PM
And affair with anyone is possible. I hate to say this because I in NO WAY blame Kaine, but if he cheated before he could have again.

TH may have been so insecure that she suspected him even if he wasn't. She knew he did it to Desiree and thought he would to her too. That, and Kaine seemed quite oblivious to what was going on in the home. Makes me wonder if he wasn't very attentive to her and it angered her.

Kat010
07-28-2010, 02:44 PM
Here's an interesting experiment.

Stop right now. Pick a day, a recent day, or maybe a day when something traumatic happened: death, illness, injury, lost job, etc. etc. to you, family or friends.

Now write, in longhand, everything you did that day and at what time.

Then provide a witness to each entry--i.e. an "alibi."

I'll bet that most of us can't recall everythng in every busy day, or what time we did what,nor can we provide a witness for every part of every day.

An aside: anyone else ever heard of LSI Scan?

http://www.lsiscan.com/

It is incredible. I was accepted (not easy for a civilian) into the course, and passed with a special reward, ahem. I was halfway through the advanced course when my illness, plus a three-month case of pneumonia, knocked me outta that.

You'd be amazed at what people do and don't remember--and how they give themselves away, unintentiionally. And what they lie about.

I truly wish that every major "player" in this case would have to provide a statement for Mr. Sapir to go through. Heck, I'd love to go through TH's statement of what she did that day. Ahem.

As for alibis--I'm single, and I couldn't provide an alibi for 99% of my time (unless my dogs were allowed to testify). Well, my computer could, LOL!

And although I hate driving long distances, like on a trip, I drive for relaxation and sometimes, inspiration. I drive during the day, and sometimes at night. Literally, I got one of my better poems from driving in the country as a snowstorm came in. So I don't have a problem with someone saying they were out driving, with a cranky kid (driving works with many) or just....because. If Th's driving can be combined with other evidence, fine--but for now, it's just what she said and no evidence to the contrary--so far.

And I don't have a problem with TH using the truck and not bringing the project home right then. Maybe the baby was cranky and she had stuff she *had* to get. Maybe she just changed her mind. Has anyone else ever had a list of errands and then deviated from that?

I still want to know why TH is doing hours and hours of driving to do the Kyron swap. Seems like she did everything, and Kaine showed up, IMHO.

Really, folks, I do now and then post short posts! Even one-word ones!

P.s. my tinfoil hat, old and battered, has streamers and ears and a special antennae, plus an attractive hand-crocheted rainbow band.

kant
07-28-2010, 02:52 PM
I have serious doubts about Terri being involved in and responsible for Kyron's disappearance, and here are a few of the reasons why --

The more Desiree and Kaine talk, the more I believe LE probably has very little evidence against Terri and, in some cases, I wonder if the "evidence" was manipulated in a legal way by LE in an effort to extract a confession from Terri. I'm thinking specifically about the LDT, especially in light of LE's recent comments pointing out the LDTs are used as tools. There was an air of backtracking and distancing in their statement, IMHO. If Terri told LE she was driving baby K around Portland to soothe an earache, I admit the alibi sounds weak. The thing is, the alibi is plausible, IMHO. I know people who use rides in the car to soothe their children; it's a very popular way to soothe children in Hollywood films. It's not unheard of or all that unusual, IMHO. It's only weak because it's not verifiable, but it's still plausible. Perhaps LE was less than truthful about results of the LDT because they didn't believe her alibi. There are reasonable explanations for Terri's behavior that day, though, especially if you believe baby K is probably teething which explains why she'd drive around, not go to the doctor, and would go to the gym. Babies are amazingly resilient, and can go from fussy to fine and vice versa, very, very quickly.

If LE had a solid case, in the press conferences, Desiree wouldn't rely so much on her mothering instincts and what I believe are superficial inconsistencies. The more Desiree talks, the more apparent it becomes that she's held a grudge against Terri for years, and regardless of whether or not the grudge is warranted, it's going to influence and perhaps even shape her opinions about Terri's behavior. Desiree was very vocal about Kyron crying and wanting to live with her and Tony, and the inference was that Terri was somehow responsible for Kyron's unhappiness, but then we found out that Kyron cried when he went to Desiree's. DY and KH later admitted he was having difficulty transitioning. The facts present a completely different situation, but the press and a lot of the public will never read that Kyron cried when he left Terri and Kaine and had to visit Desiree, only that "missing boy cried when he had to go home to stepmother!" or whatever other salacious headline is used.

There are a lot of accusations, a lot of implications, that are slowly being clarified or eaten away at, IMHO. And, IMHO, when you get to the root of why Desiree believes Terri is responsible, it's because Desiree has instincts and Terri didn't behave and react in the way Desiree thought she should.

LE has no evidence of a murder scene. None. Terri is not some hardened criminal with years of experience in pulling off crimes such as this one. If Terri is responsible, she abducted and murdered a child she'd raised for most of his life. Her biological children were attached to this child. She was married to this child's father. Killing him, seeing his lifeless, perhaps bloody body, discarding him somehow, all with her daughter nearby, is unfathomable to me, especially since she then carried on in a completely normal fashion, totally calm, acting in character, for the rest of the day. And, then, there's no physical evidence. None in the truck. None on her clothes. None in the house. After forty years of living a normal life, she's able to pull off this crime leaving behind no physical evidence, carrying on about her day, going to the gym, arriving home, sending e-mails to Desiree, posting pictures on Facebook (and it's interesting to note that Terri didn't rush right home and post the pictures to establish some sort of alibi, she posted them hours later).

As much as some are hopeful, I think most would admit it's unlikely Kyron is alive. Hell, I'm hopeful, but I believe it's highly improbable that Kyron is alive. If he's dead and Terri killed him, there should be evidence even without a body, IMHO.

I agree with this post as well. Being "weird" or even oh-my-God-I-cant-believe-it weird is not a crime. Also, being involved in non-mainstream (but legal among consenting adults) and possibly "weird" sexual practices is not a crime either; but it likely would be embarrassing for some people, so that may make the person in question further act "weird" and make it seem that he ors she is hiding something - when - well they are trying to hide something, but it's not what we think they're hiding.

IDK. It just seems so... IDK the word.

And pulling all this off would require some skills that I simply dont think TH has. Even if she did have intent and/or actually tried to do something (something illegal, disappearing Kyron, or other fill-in-the-blank) I think there would be evidence galore bc she'd likely screw it up somehow, somewhere, in some way, imo.

I'm not saying that I thihnk she's Mary Poppins or a great person of moral integrity. I dont know. But as far as Kyron's disappearance, I cant help but think there is more to this than "TH did it. The end. Case closed." I just cant get there yet.

She did seem weird and insincere and her body language was screaming hink on one of those initial pressers. (Im referring to the one where she was blinkin like crazy and hanging on Desiree) But to me, KH seemed hinky on that presser too. His body language hinked me and there was something about his words (that he read, but not faulting him for that) I cant recall what the red flag was for me, but something he said struck me as odd. Dangit it escapes me at the moment.

I cant recall also whether I had any feelings one way or the other about Desiree on that presser, but I do recall thinking that her husband, Mr. Young, (cant think of his first name) seemed the most genuine of all 4 of them.

Also, didnt KH and DY's relationship (marriage etc) begin when Desiree's son was 7? What about TH's son? Was he in the Horman home? and for how long? How did TH and KH really hook up? Does anyone know? Im sincerely asking bc some of you seem to know every detail of this case and might even know these things off the tops of your head (I mean, if so you wont have to dig and search and go to any trouble; I hope not) I know there have been two or three cases over the years that I followed and analyzed every freakin word, knew every nuance, and could discuss details at the drop of a hat.

To those folks, or anyone who knows, how did KH and TH actually get together? (And Im thinking it's not the fairytale good friend story that I first heard in which Desiree was sick and TH stepped in to care for Kyron by living with KH. (?) He could have afforded more than adequate childcare, it seems.

And another thing that bothers me is the "last seen" part. Was a young child the witness? Was it a teacher? both? IDK, I guess I keep thinking that it's human nature to be focused on yourself for the most part or in general,
for one thing, I mean unless something outstanding grabs your attention such that you'd recall it accurately (accurately being the operative word) AND recall the time?

Also, a school is a place or routine to the point of being mundane. Except for the fact that it was science day, days can run together and unless several folks - who have no reason to be incahoots - convey the same story, it's hard for me to take something like that as an absolute... which really convolutes the matter fo me bc the "last seen" (the for sure last seen) is crucial to the whole ball of wax regarding what may have happened next, what actually happened next, and how.

Sorry for the incoherent ramble. Im just stumped.

Long live the run-on sentence.

and the obligatory moo. :-)

.

Donjeta
07-28-2010, 03:00 PM
The latest thing that makes me think that TH is involved is DS's lawyer saying she'll probably be charged somewhere down the road (paraphrased).

This is because lawyers are usually rather careful about what they say, and I think he might have said so because of something that his client told him. I have no idea what it could be, but it seems to me that DS knows *something* and based on that CS thinks that TH will be charged.

Snowball58
07-28-2010, 03:00 PM
Here's an interesting experiment.

Stop right now. Pick a day, a recent day, or maybe a day when something traumatic happened: death, illness, injury, lost job, etc. etc. to you, family or friends.

Now write, in longhand, everything you did that day and at what time.

Then provide a witness to each entry--i.e. an "alibi."

I'll bet that most of us can't recall everythng in every busy day, or what time we did what,nor can we provide a witness for every part of every day.

An aside: anyone else ever heard of LSI Scan?

http://www.lsiscan.com/

It is incredible. I was accepted (not easy for a civilian) into the course, and passed with a special reward, ahem. I was halfway through the advanced course when my illness, plus a three-month case of pneumonia, knocked me outta that.

You'd be amazed at what people do and don't remember--and how they give themselves away, unintentiionally. And what they lie about.

I truly wish that every major "player" in this case would have to provide a statement for Mr. Sapir to go through. Heck, I'd love to go through TH's statement of what she did that day. Ahem.

As for alibis--I'm single, and I couldn't provide an alibi for 99% of my time (unless my dogs were allowed to testify). Well, my computer could, LOL!

And although I hate driving long distances, like on a trip, I drive for relaxation and sometimes, inspiration. I drive during the day, and sometimes at night. Literally, I got one of my better poems from driving in the country as a snowstorm came in. So I don't have a problem with someone saying they were out driving, with a cranky kid (driving works with many) or just....because. If Th's driving can be combined with other evidence, fine--but for now, it's just what she said and no evidence to the contrary--so far.

And I don't have a problem with TH using the truck and not bringing the project home right then. Maybe the baby was cranky and she had stuff she *had* to get. Maybe she just changed her mind. Has anyone else ever had a list of errands and then deviated from that?

I still want to know why TH is doing hours and hours of driving to do the Kyron swap. Seems like she did everything, and Kaine showed up, IMHO.

Really, folks, I do now and then post short posts! Even one-word ones!

P.s. my tinfoil hat, old and battered, has streamers and ears and a special antennae, plus an attractive hand-crocheted rainbow band.

I can tell you right now, without a doubt, that if my child or stepchild disappeared from school, I would be able to tell LE (same day, maybe the next day, even weeks later) very precisely how I spent every moment of that day, down to when I used the bathroom. Maybe my account is initially muddled due to shock, and maybe every part of my day doesn't include witnesses, but I'm confident that I could recount my day with accuracy, and it wouldn't change and whatever evidence LE comes up with (phone pings, surveillance video, etc) would match because I would tell the truth and I would remember every moment of that day - presumably the worst day of my life.

Cher352
07-28-2010, 03:01 PM
I am definitely not convinced TH did this but if all the rumors are true then I definitely would not be surprised to see that she did. The problem I am having is that the rumors have been highly publicized with hardly any type of actual confirmation from LE.

Even the statements from TH herself about the LDT and the pings may not accurate. LE are known to lie to a suspect about these type things in order to try to get them to confess.

So in essence I really dislike the way LE is handling this whole case. No info from LE and they are letting the press and Kyrons parents run rampant with only a couple short written disclaimers here and there about the info not coming from them. If LE knows something being said out there in the media is either true or false I wish they would state it in a public forum so that people could help. The way it is now no one is even looking at anything out of the ordinary unless it has to do with TH.

And I guess that is my biggest fear; that TH is not the guilty party and because I feel LE has only focused on her all these weeks then the trail is probably too cold to find the real culprit.

gardeness
07-28-2010, 03:04 PM
Here's an interesting experiment.

Stop right now. Pick a day, a recent day, or maybe a day when something traumatic happened: death, illness, injury, lost job, etc. etc. to you, family or friends.

Now write, in longhand, everything you did that day and at what time.

Then provide a witness to each entry--i.e. an "alibi."

I'll bet that most of us can't recall everythng in every busy day, or what time we did what,nor can we provide a witness for every part of every day.

An aside: anyone else ever heard of LSI Scan?

http://www.lsiscan.com/

It is incredible. I was accepted (not easy for a civilian) into the course, and passed with a special reward, ahem. I was halfway through the advanced course when my illness, plus a three-month case of pneumonia, knocked me outta that.

You'd be amazed at what people do and don't remember--and how they give themselves away, unintentiionally. And what they lie about.

I truly wish that every major "player" in this case would have to provide a statement for Mr. Sapir to go through. Heck, I'd love to go through TH's statement of what she did that day. Ahem.

As for alibis--I'm single, and I couldn't provide an alibi for 99% of my time (unless my dogs were allowed to testify). Well, my computer could, LOL!

And although I hate driving long distances, like on a trip, I drive for relaxation and sometimes, inspiration. I drive during the day, and sometimes at night. Literally, I got one of my better poems from driving in the country as a snowstorm came in. So I don't have a problem with someone saying they were out driving, with a cranky kid (driving works with many) or just....because. If Th's driving can be combined with other evidence, fine--but for now, it's just what she said and no evidence to the contrary--so far.

And I don't have a problem with TH using the truck and not bringing the project home right then. Maybe the baby was cranky and she had stuff she *had* to get. Maybe she just changed her mind. Has anyone else ever had a list of errands and then deviated from that?

I still want to know why TH is doing hours and hours of driving to do the Kyron swap. Seems like she did everything, and Kaine showed up, IMHO.

Really, folks, I do now and then post short posts! Even one-word ones!

P.s. my tinfoil hat, old and battered, has streamers and ears and a special antennae, plus an attractive hand-crocheted rainbow band.
bbm

I drive to relax, too. I love looking at old houses and neighborhoods, and am known to cruise through the same neighborhoods, checking out my "faves"...and, going on a drive has worked for most of my babies...

Kat010
07-28-2010, 03:20 PM
Seriiously, folks, try it. You might be surprised.

I'm anal-retentive (ahem) and have an almost photographic memory--well, other than things like where are my car keys, glasses, check book, etc. Normal life stuff I can't organize, LOL, but ask me when Queen Eliz. I died.

But given all that--well, I was amazed. We may *think* that we would remember every detail down to the minute, but human beings don't. If you have a calendar and a schedule--like being at work, or a meeting, that helps.

But if you're just having a day without appointments--and sometimes even with--you do lose track of exactly what you did when and for how long. And how many times do we all say "ooops, I forgot." Forget to get one tiem at the store. Forget that we needed to go here before going there. And we tend to prioritize our memories of a day, right? I won't remember everyone I saw in a big box store or even much about the store that day,. but I might remember something else that I assigned higher priority to.

I don't want to sidetrack, but I'm just saying that a busy woman with kids, errands, etc. etc. could possibly a) change her errands as she does thing and b) be unable to account for everything.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying TH is innocent, or guilty.

Donjeta
07-28-2010, 03:22 PM
I believe that Terri was asked about how she spent the day Kyron disappeared on that same day so IMO we should all think about whether we remember what we did today.

I think I remember what I did and in what order but I've gotta admit that I'm fuzzy about times because I didn't check the clock too many times. I can tell you what time I left home to go to a park with the kids, and I can check my cell phone for a couple o calls I made. Then I remember the exact time I changed a diaper at the park and I know the exact time when I was on an escalator but that's about it. I've got some receipts from purchases I made and I might be on a few security cameras. There were other people who saw me and my family at the park but I have no idea how to contact them.

mydailyopinions
07-28-2010, 03:23 PM
Seriiously, folks, try it. You might be surprised.

I'm anal-retentive (ahem) and have an almost photographic memory--well, other than things like where are my car keys, glasses, check book, etc. Normal life stuff I can't organize, LOL, but ask me when Queen Eliz. I died.

But given all that--well, I was amazed. We may *think* that we would remember every detail down to the minute, but human beings don't. If you have a calendar and a schedule--like being at work, or a meeting, that helps.

But if you're just having a day without appointments--and sometimes even with--you do lose track of exactly what you did when and for how long. And how many times do we all say "ooops, I forgot." Forget to get one tiem at the store. Forget that we needed to go here before going there. And we tend to prioritize our memories of a day, right? I won't remember everyone I saw in a big box store or even much about the store that day,. but I might remember something else that I assigned higher priority to.

I don't want to sidetrack, but I'm just saying that a busy woman with kids, errands, etc. etc. could possibly a) change her errands as she does thing and b) be unable to account for everything.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying TH is innocent, or guilty.

Kind of like forgetting that your hired someone to kill your husband? Trust me, if she can sit there and say well, I did this from this time, and that from that time...then she can fill in the in betweens as well.. no doubt in my mind.

gitana1
07-28-2010, 03:25 PM
I'll just post my own opinion, which I realize may be in the minority view right now. But it will feel good to just blurt it out here. If I'm wrong later, I'll be one of the first to eat crow, I promise you.

But right now, I don't really like the fence very much, and unless there's big evidence out there to prove Terri wasn't involved - like finding another person who kidnapped Kyron - then she was the last person to see him alive.

So I haven't been on the fence for a long time and I don't see her as a victim. Frankly, I'm baffled why some people think murder for hire might be justified in a bad marriage - since when? A crime is a crime. Plotting is plotting. This whole thing is completely hinky to me.

The police aren't investigating Kaine as a bad father either. He is the one with custody of his daughter now, which Terri is not fighting against at all. Why should we assume that he was abusive and TH or her friends are hiding Kyron for his own good? And for what motive? Why not just contact the police and start proceedings against Kaine, then? But none of that has happened, so I think it's a big red herring. Otherwise she would have hidden her own precious daughter as well - but she didn't.

Here's the court affidavit about the sexting and the restraining order against Terri. This is real evidence. The cell phones and text messages, as well as images, are part of the court record and the evidence and were viewed by a judge "in camera" or in his chambers.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

These are not just rumors, but part of public court records and the judge saw the sexting photos and messages to both Cook and the landscaper before slapping a restraining order on Terri. He couldn't do that without just cause.

See the last two paragraphs and especially the last line in the image below - police have this evidence!

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151/rattlesnakeroot/HormanCase1.jpg

I like to look at what people do and not what they or their defense attorneys say.

Terri's story of the morning Kyron disappeared doesn't fit the circumstances. The police have said her cell phone records don't add up. Having not seen all the evidence we can't know for sure, but most of the time cell phones are indicators of where someone is at the time. They were used in the Peterson case and I don't know why we should just assume the police are wrong about her whereabouts.

I don't understand the whole thing about the doctor's note and the science fair, or why she didn't go back to get the project since she had the truck.

The police have her cell phone records with sexting and "lurid pictures" which is stated in court records. So she was being unfaithful with a landscaper who might have talked to her about murder for hire. Then she was quick to have an affair in the middle of the search for Kyron with her other sexting partner - an old friend of Kaine's! Sorry, but this is beginning to remind me of Scott Peterson and Amber Frey!

Kaine may not be a model husband, and it's a shame he left Desiree for Terri while she was pregnant - to me that's despicable if it's true. The whole extended family thing is sort of tragic and I feel sorry for the kids.

But that doesn't change the fact the Kaine and Desiree were NOT at the school that day and TH was. Trying to cast doubt on everyone else involved doesn't quite work in this case, anymore than it worked to blame homeless people in the Peterson case - and the defense tried that over and over.

JMO

I agree with much of your post but why do you think the judge saw the sexting messages and landscaper communications in camera prior to granting the RO or ever? I never heard that. Can you point me to the right direction?

Kat010
07-28-2010, 03:25 PM
Opinions, no, I didn't say anything about "forgetting" an (alleged) murder for hire plot.

I'm talking about memories and timelines.

I would have said, before I took that course, that I could accurately tell someone what I did throughout my day and exactly when. I learned a lot. I was wrong.

ThoughtFox
07-28-2010, 03:28 PM
I think you may have misunderstood me. I absolutely agree that the sexting between MC & Terri occurred, and that the document supports that. I said nothing about what happened between MC & Terri in my post. I was referring solely to the landscaper.

And my point is just this: If TH was doing all this with MC, and we have evidence and his own admission in an interview with police that it was true, and 200 text messages written while Kyron is missing, then it makes it easier to believe the landscaper also had something going on with her with the sexting even if it was months before this.

It's a pattern - I think I've written that before to explain my position on this. It goes to state of mind and that's why it's important.

Frankly, it makes her sound like an exhibitionist of some kind. Just my opinion.

The fact that the police pressured the landscaper into a sting operation pretty much confirms that the cops had something on him. If he didn't want to be involved, he could have just lied about it - except that the police must have had evidence of of something from the phone messages. JMO

debs
07-28-2010, 03:30 PM
I don't understand. Are you also proposing Terri simply does not know the name or how to contact her nooner amour? And said Nooner-amour would not go to LE?

Or are you saying it's better to pay Houze $350,000 than to give LE the name of her Nooner?

Well, that might be better for Houze, but I mean what's better for Terri now?

To clear herself of these charges and get on with her inevitable divorce or to preserve the secrecy of her Nooner that day?

IMO, were this the case, LE would have her Nooner truth and would have alibied her by now. I bet she'd be quite thrilled if she actually had a Nooner-amour that would vouch for her at this point. The GJ is in session, after all.

I'm thinking I don't understand your entire thought process here...are you speculating that she arranged for the kidnapping of Kyron and then had a Nooner whilst celebrating said kidnapping, so she still needs Houze?

Because if that's the case, I actually could run with you on that theory. :)

Don't go running with the bull yet, Emma! I don't think she arranged for someone else to kidnap Kyron. I don't know whether she had nooner-amore contact LE. I do know that in the initial interviews, Terri was said to have not been forthcoming (as strong a statement as LE has made thus far). I believe that to reference this time when she may have been with nooner-amore. In the grand scheme of things, she may have believed she could keep the affair secret and still be helpful with regard to Kyron.

Lying always bites one in the butt. I don't recommend it. But once it's there, it's best to see how a lie would benefit the liar, and as I stated initially, I believe coming out with "oh well, you know I was out with nooner-amore and it was all sorts of fun but I didn't have anything to do with Kyron's disappearance."

Whether nooner-amore has been interviewed (or even exists, since I'm hypothesizing), I don't know. I know if it has nothing to do with Kyron and everything to do with Terri's divorce from Kaine, LE will not talk about it.

ThoughtFox
07-28-2010, 03:32 PM
I agree with much of your post but why do you think the judge saw the sexting messages and landscaper communications in camera prior to granting the RO or ever? I never heard that. Can you point me to the right direction?

Yeah - follow this link an read it. That's what it says. ;) It says they are asking the Court (the Judge) to "examine the documents." Maybe he didn't see each one, but he knew about them.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

This is a matter of public record. If people choose to believe it's a myth, I'm fine with that. But I believe we'll see these documents later if and when this comes to trial, so you might as well get acquainted with them now. JMO

mydailyopinions
07-28-2010, 03:33 PM
Opinions, no, I didn't say anything about "forgetting" an (alleged) murder for hire plot.

I'm talking about memories and timelines.

I would have said, before I took that course, that I could accurately tell someone what I did throughout my day and exactly when. I learned a lot. I was wrong.

Thank you for the "dumb attack"
Been here a while, enjoy your posts and would rather see you read the TOS than not be able to post these very valuable opinions you have...

In any other situation, I can see exactly where you are coming from..kinda like loosing something and retracing your steps...something seemingly invaluable..
However, in the case of a child missing, I just don't see how telling LE exactly your whereabouts during a specific time is that hard. Now if they were asking her to retrace weeks, maybe...but a few hours...nah..

kant
07-28-2010, 03:34 PM
I believe that Terri was asked about how she spent the day Kyron disappeared on that same day so IMO we should all think about whether we remember what we did today.

Gotta admit that I'm fuzzy about times because I didn't check the clock too many times. I can tell you what time I left home to go to a park with the kids, and I can check my cell phone for a couple o calls I made. Then I remember the exact time I changed a diaper at the park and I know the exact time when I was on an escalator but that's about it. I've got some receipts from purchases I made and I might be on a few security cameras. There were other people who saw me and my family at the park but I have no idea how to contact them.

Hey Donj!

I agree with this too; I could say where I was today if asked today or tomorrow etc. But if I were asked about another parent or child out of many parents and children who I may see every day at school, unless I had some reason to notice something in particular, I doubt I could say who all was there and when exactly with absolute certainty (did I just say "who all?") :-)

Even if TH's not a CSI fan or if she is (who cares) I cant fathom an adult walking around these days with two neurons to rub together not knowing about cell phone pings. To me, that's like not knowing that caller ID exists.

There are some bizarre things about TH imo and maybe even something slighty pathological, IDK. But Im not sure that all her eccentricites and peccadilloes, proclivities or whatnot are related to Kyron's being missing. Not sure they're not... just not sure.. period.

moo

.

Kat010
07-28-2010, 03:36 PM
Snowball, you said something very important about remembering your day: "Maybe my account is initially muddled //"

So, you tell cops your story. But, being in shock and "muddled", you forget that you stopped by the shoe store, or the farmer's market, or, or ,or. Or you did things in a different order, or your "to do" list said one thing but you did another.

So, later, your cellphone pings don't match up with what you said. Or someone says "hey, I saw her at the library dropping books in the slot at 2 p.m." and you told the cops you went to the big box store at about 1 p.m. and spent 2 hours there. Whatever.

Then LE tells you that you're lying. And then they start hammering on you because "if you're lying about this" what else are you lying to us about? Why didn't you tell us when you were at the library? Because it's only a block away from where Mr. Smith, your ex-husband, was killed?"

You can say "oops, I forgot, I did run by the library on the way to the store and just drove up by the drop box" but the damage is already done. There are inconsistencies in your story and you've lied to police--in their world.

lorann
07-28-2010, 03:38 PM
I too feel TH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance. But before I even thought that, her actions on that presser grossed me out. With the MFH plot, sexting, and all of the negative things came out - that just sealed it for me. Just driving around doesn't cut it for me personally, I had two babies with colic and one who suffered ear aches a lot. Going to the gym does not sound funky to me, I have several relatives who run the sweeper several times a day when upset. Before Kaine knew about some of her exploits, maybe he felt exerting energy at the gym would be the best thing for her, it was a big part of their life. I think Terri is mentally disturbed and after having the baby still felt she was not equal to DY in Kaine's eyes. I just haven't figured out how she managed to pull this off but I think she is responsible - in an irresponsible way. Once (if) she is charged, I predict her lawyer will have her undergo vigorous metal tests trying to prove she is too unstable to be tried.

It is hard to peg Kaine, even with all of the interviews. He is trying so hard but looks like a lost soul. Worry, guilt that he should have seen things coming to a head, fear of what if. He looks like he is just going through the motions and taking ques from LE and his lawyer.

ETA On most days, I could prove where I was at most any time. Cameras in stores, receipts, but the best way I live alone, nobody else used my computer and I am on Websleuths most of the time. LE could ask Tricia for Loran's history!

kant
07-28-2010, 03:41 PM
I am 99.9% sure she is responsible.

The FB posts made me uncomfortable, but I ignored that.
The presser and her body language set off every hinky sensor I have.
The doctor's appointment
Driving the truck.
The MFH plot also makes me think she hates Kaine so much she wanted to hurt him.
Sauvie island (I know not confirmed, but still.)
The sexting while a child is missing.
DeDe.

There are too many weird things. I know this is all circumstantial, but I truly believe it's her.I see your points.
I have a question about the truck. Did she ask to use the truck for some purpose and then not use it for that reason? If I were up to no good, I think I probably would not do that. It seems too obvious and fishy

Also, people do bizarre things under stress and emergencies and tragedies etc You and I wouldnt be texting sexting in that horrific scenario, but people do things to distract them. Not saying that's why she did it bc IDK why, but that's just it, IDK; and just bc *I* wouldnt do it doesnt mean that folks dont do it. I did not say that very well.

But I do see what you're saying.

moo

Littleone48
07-28-2010, 03:41 PM
Opinions, no, I didn't say anything about "forgetting" an (alleged) murder for hire plot.

I'm talking about memories and timelines.

I would have said, before I took that course, that I could accurately tell someone what I did throughout my day and exactly when. I learned a lot. I was wrong.

You are 100% right. I own a business that generates a-lot of cash. Years ago there was a rash of hold-ups throughout our City. LE held a class for the businesses to help them cope during and after a hold-up. We were given tips such as place a tape on the door so when the perp leaves you at least can give the height of that person. They said that 99% of the people cannot remember details after a dramatic event such as a hold-up.

Of course there were those macho people that said they wouldn't give in if they were held up but the LE giving the course said "just be happy with yourself if you don't pee your pants." Meaning that you can say you will remember or that you will not give in but when it happens it's a whole totally different story.

Kat010
07-28-2010, 03:42 PM
Hey opinions, thanks for your kind words--and I enjoy your posts, too.

One of the reasons I started posting here after reading, reading, and so enjoy it is the level of intelligence, the fact that we aren't screaming and bashing each other (some forums are ghastly!) and we can happily offer up different perspectives, ideas and opinions. And then debate them.

Uh oh--did it seem as though I said something that would fall outside TOS? I hope not. My "dumb attack" was typing a word twice and it didn't make sense. :cow:

gitana1
07-28-2010, 03:45 PM
To me, it's clear based on one very verifiable fact: TH failed to fight the RO request or for any custodial/visitation rights to her own baby/toddler. As a family law attorney, that caused alarm bells to go off for me. Nothing else has been verified - phone pings, not passing LDTs, her convenient story about riding rural roads with a sick baby on the day Kyron went missing, the MFH plot - none of it, although I believe those things will eventually be verified. But it is a known fact that this woman gave up custody of her child and even the right to see her baby at all.
Even bad mothers, abusive mothers do not do that. To separate a mother from her toddler is an incredible thing. For the mother not to fight such a separation, something is very, very wrong.
I would instruct my clients not to testify of make statements that could be used against them in connection with a criminal case, at a civil hearing. But you can still mount a defense in a civil DV case without the accused's testimony. And I have. You can cross examine the witness/victims, you can make evidentiary objections forcing the other side to really prove their case and bring in witnesses, instead of just hearsay, for example, and you can make an argument. If the client is guilty, you can still ask for, and will likely get, some form of visitation with the children, at least supervised. TH and her attorney didn't even do that. She did nothing to mount any defense at all to the allegations, not even one in which she remained completely silent.
I know how the law works in this context and I also know the power of the mother-child bond so this, of all things, is the one thing that tipped me cleanly off the fence and has kept me off that fence. IMO, the only thing that could keep a person from mounting a defense or asking for, at the least, some form of visitation, would be that that person knows they have done something and are desperately trying to stay out of prison.
TH is going down for this and I am super confident that she should.

Snowball58
07-28-2010, 03:48 PM
Ok, I'll bite. Assuming today is the day my stepchild goes missing (it's only 12:30pm here now, so there would be a few more hours of activity before I'm being questioned):

Woke up at 7:15, woke up daughter to get her ready for school. We lounged around in her bed for about 20 minutes, playing with the dogs, talking about what she dreamed last night, choosing her outfit for the day. DH came into her room at about 7:35am to kiss her goodbye, then left for work. At about that time, we got our lazy butts up and she proceeded to get ready for school.

We went about our morning as usual, DD brushed her teeth and got ready for school, I went downstairs to make her breakfast, get some coffee, tend to the dogs, etc. and she came downstairs around 8am to eat and watch cartoons. I hopped onto my computer to check email and update on Kyron's case :)

At 8:30am I realized I was totally late and raced upstairs to get myself ready, and DD came with me because she forgot to pick out socks and wanted to kiss the kitten goodbye (kitten stays in our master bathroom until he's big enough to hold his own with the dogs). As I got dressed, DD went downstairs to get her sweater and shoes, and I realized I didn't finish making her lunch, so with curses under my breath, I stuck a headband on my head to hide the bed-head and ran down to the kitchen to pack up her lunch.

Like a crazed lunatic, I rush us out the door at 8:46am and we drove to school. Arrived at school a few minutes past 9am, kissed DD goodbye and walked her to the doorway of her classroom and watched her go in. I signed her in at 9:05am.

I then got into my car, lit a secret cigarette (shhhhhh), and headed to the bank which is near the school. Got to the bank at about 9:10am, checked my safe deposit box, chatted with the manager, got back into my car and headed to one of my PO Boxes (UPS store) because I was expecting a package.

Reached the UPS store at about 9:30am, nodded hello to the kid behind the counter, checked the box and it was empty. Hopped back into my car to head to the post office near my house to check my other PO Box.

Arrived at my local post office at about 9:50am, checked the box, sorted through my mail and tossed the junk mail into the garbage bin inside the post office, got back into my car and drove home. Arrived home at about 10am, maybe 10:05am.

As I walked in the door I heard the phone ringing but just missed the call from my husband, so I called him right back and we chatted about our morning, his work schedule, etc. We talked for about 10 minutes.

I spent the rest of the next 2-2.5 hours on the computer working (I have my own business), checking email and stalking websleuths :) I also spent part of this time tidying up the house because the housecleaners are coming this afternoon and I like to have everything picked up for them. As we speak I'm eating leftovers in front of my computer.

Today is just an ordinary run of the mill Wednesday for me. Assuming the same for Terri (except it was not an ordinary day, it was science fair day, so even more reason for the day's events to stick even better than usual), and assuming she was questioned about her timeline the same day or even the next day, I can't understand why there would be any gaps or changes of story or evidence contradicting her account of the day (I know this is not confirmed, that these things are just rumors).

If you question me for the first time a month from now, about today, I'm certain I couldn't recount what I did at all. But the same day or next day? I just don't get how anyone would be iffy on how they spent the day. What am I missing?

WhyaDuck?
07-28-2010, 03:48 PM
Hey opinions, thanks for your kind words--and I enjoy your posts, too.

One of the reasons I started posting here after reading, reading, and so enjoy it is the level of intelligence, the fact that we aren't screaming and bashing each other (some forums are ghastly!) and we can happily offer up different perspectives, ideas and opinions. And then debate them.

Uh oh--did it seem as though I said something that would fall outside TOS? I hope not. My "dumb attack" was typing a word twice and it didn't make sense. :cow:

BBM

I think maybe what you meant was "an attack of the dumbs" then, possibly? (I get those very often, and they seem to be increasing at a frightening rate.) :D

kant
07-28-2010, 03:51 PM
Snowball, you said something very important about remembering your day: "Maybe my account is initially muddled //"

So, you tell cops your story. But, being in shock and "muddled", you forget that you stopped by the shoe store, or the farmer's market, or, or ,or. Or you did things in a different order, or your "to do" list said one thing but you did another.

So, later, your cellphone pings don't match up with what you said. Or someone says "hey, I saw her at the library dropping books in the slot at 2 p.m." and you told the cops you went to the big box store at about 1 p.m. and spent 2 hours there. Whatever.

Then LE tells you that you're lying. And then they start hammering on you because "if you're lying about this" what else are you lying to us about? Why didn't you tell us when you were at the library? Because it's only a block away from where Mr. Smith, your ex-husband, was killed?"

You can say "oops, I forgot, I did run by the library on the way to the store and just drove up by the drop box" but the damage is already done. There are inconsistencies in your story and you've lied to police--in their world.

Kat, yeah, this.

I could probably relay my whole day yesterday primarily bc it was not tragic (uneventful in a sense) and I am not freaked out at the moment. But if I were freaked out I could very possibly, (what's our new word?) mis-remember? Or not tell it in the correct order or timing or something. And there are times when Im not with anyone who could vouch for my whereabouts. Luckily Im not up to no good, but you get my drift.

Also, Lorann made me snicker with the bit about her friend and the running-the-sweeper-when-upset thing.

Dont ask me what I do. [snerkity-snerk]

moo

mydailyopinions
07-28-2010, 03:52 PM
To me, it's clear based on one very verifiable fact: TH failed to fight the RO request or for any custodial/visitation rights to her own baby/toddler. As a family law attorney, that caused alarm bells to go off for me. Nothing else has been verified - phone pings, not passing LDTs, her convenient story about riding rural roads with a sick baby on the day Kyron went missing, the MFH plot - none of it, although I believe those things will eventually be verified. But it is a known fact that this woman gave up custody of her child and even the right to see her baby at all.
Even bad mothers, abusive mothers do not do that. To separate a mother from her toddler is an incredible thing. For the mother not to fight such a separation, something is very, very wrong.
I would instruct my clients not to testify of make statements that could be used against them in connection with a criminal case, at a civil hearing. But you can still mount a defense in a civil DV case without the accused's testimony. And I have. You can cross examine the witness/victims, you can make evidentiary objections forcing the other side to really prove their case and bring in witnesses, instead of just hearsay, for example, and you can make an argument. If the client is guilty, you can still ask for, and will likely get, some form of visitation with the children, at least supervised. TH and her attorney didn't even do that. She did nothing to mount any defense at all to the allegations, not even one in which she remained completely silent.
I know how the law works in this context and I also know the power of the mother-child bond so this, of all things, is the one thing that tipped me cleanly off the fence and has kept me off that fence. IMO, the only thing that could keep a person from mounting a defense or asking for, at the least, some form of visitation, would be that that person knows they have done something and are desperately trying to stay out of prison.
TH is going down for this and I am super confident that she should.

This has stood out to me as well. Many will say that it is due to safety, and I can clearly understand the need for safety of a child...however, we all know that LE would move mountains to protect that baby even if they had to put a patrol car outside the house 24 hours a day. As a mother, I would think that before I gave up custody of my child (if I were innocent) that I would lean on LE to help keep my child safe. If this didn't work and I still didn't feel safe, maybe I would place my child with someone who could at least bring them to see me in a setting where I know nothing could happen.

If I were guilty on the other hand, I would more than likely do what Terri has done in regards to the baby.

Kat010
07-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Duck, LOL! Oh yes, "attacks of the dumbs" seem to multiplying some days as fast the dust elephants under the furniture.......... :angel::biggrin:

gitana1
07-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Snowball, you said something very important about remembering your day: "Maybe my account is initially muddled //"

So, you tell cops your story. But, being in shock and "muddled", you forget that you stopped by the shoe store, or the farmer's market, or, or ,or. Or you did things in a different order, or your "to do" list said one thing but you did another.

So, later, your cellphone pings don't match up with what you said. Or someone says "hey, I saw her at the library dropping books in the slot at 2 p.m." and you told the cops you went to the big box store at about 1 p.m. and spent 2 hours there. Whatever.

Then LE tells you that you're lying. And then they start hammering on you because "if you're lying about this" what else are you lying to us about? Why didn't you tell us when you were at the library? Because it's only a block away from where Mr. Smith, your ex-husband, was killed?"

You can say "oops, I forgot, I did run by the library on the way to the store and just drove up by the drop box" but the damage is already done. There are inconsistencies in your story and you've lied to police--in their world.

Investigators know that sometimes mistakes happen. Like in the Caylee Anthony case - the parents initially said they last saw Caylee on the 9th but then they were confronted with video of her showing they saw her on the 15th. Once LE did that, the anthonys realized their mistake and the matter was cleared it up. I don't think it remained an issue after that.

I seriously believe that the damage done to TH's credibility is due to much more than one, minor inconsistency.

joshiesmom
07-28-2010, 03:55 PM
I can tell you right now, without a doubt, that if my child or stepchild disappeared from school, I would be able to tell LE (same day, maybe the next day, even weeks later) very precisely how I spent every moment of that day, down to when I used the bathroom. Maybe my account is initially muddled due to shock, and maybe every part of my day doesn't include witnesses, but I'm confident that I could recount my day with accuracy, and it wouldn't change and whatever evidence LE comes up with (phone pings, surveillance video, etc) would match because I would tell the truth and I would remember every moment of that day - presumably the worst day of my life.

See, I know I couldn't do that. I mean, I could say what I did, but I'd probably forget to add a couple mundane things, and I know I couldn't tell the times for everything.

A person doesn't realize at 8am that something terrible is going to happen at 4pm and therefore they catalog every moment in that day. I personally don't look at the clock every time I visit the bathroom or change a diaper or even make lunch. I could give generalities ~ ie; in the morning, I got a phone call, checked my email & watched a movie, but I know I could not give exact timeframes for when I was doing each activity.

Snowball58
07-28-2010, 03:58 PM
Snowball, you said something very important about remembering your day: "Maybe my account is initially muddled //"

So, you tell cops your story. But, being in shock and "muddled", you forget that you stopped by the shoe store, or the farmer's market, or, or ,or. Or you did things in a different order, or your "to do" list said one thing but you did another.

So, later, your cellphone pings don't match up with what you said. Or someone says "hey, I saw her at the library dropping books in the slot at 2 p.m." and you told the cops you went to the big box store at about 1 p.m. and spent 2 hours there. Whatever.

Then LE tells you that you're lying. And then they start hammering on you because "if you're lying about this" what else are you lying to us about? Why didn't you tell us when you were at the library? Because it's only a block away from where Mr. Smith, your ex-husband, was killed?"

You can say "oops, I forgot, I did run by the library on the way to the store and just drove up by the drop box" but the damage is already done. There are inconsistencies in your story and you've lied to police--in their world.

I understand your point about traumatic events, and agree that while in shock, one's account may be off. But I also think that this fight or flight response only lasts so long. And honestly, Terri's day consisted of taking Kyron to school, photographing him, then driving around on rural roads for a long time, then going to the gym then home. It just doesn't seem that there's a ton of activity there to mess up on, or that should take weeks to clear up.

Of course, we have no idea what Terri's account was on the day she was interviewed, what the polygraph and pings showed, etc. Did she give the grocery stores in the wrong order? Did she fudge the times by a few minutes here and there? Did she leave out the part about driving Baby K around for 90 minutes? Did she claim she was on one side of town all morning, but her phone pinged on Sauvie and she had no explanation for that until the guy said he saw her near Logie Trail that morning and she changed her story to include driving around rural roads to soothe the baby?

We just don't know. I could be forgiving of a few minor discrepancies in a person's recollection of a traumatic day, but we have no idea if this is the case or if her discrepancies are much more significant than that. If the latter, there's no excuse IMO, and is very suspicious.

kant
07-28-2010, 03:59 PM
To me, it's clear based on one very verifiable fact: TH failed to fight the RO request or for any custodial/visitation rights to her own baby/toddler. As a family law attorney, that caused alarm bells to go off for me. Nothing else has been verified - phone pings, not passing LDTs, her convenient story about riding rural roads with a sick baby on the day Kyron went missing, the MFH plot - none of it, although I believe those things will eventually be verified. But it is a known fact that this woman gave up custody of her child and even the right to see her baby at all.
Even bad mothers, abusive mothers do not do that. To separate a mother from her toddler is an incredible thing. For the mother not to fight such a separation, something is very, very wrong.
I would instruct my clients not to testify of make statements that could be used against them in connection with a criminal case, at a civil hearing. But you can still mount a defense in a civil DV case without the accused's testimony. And I have. You can cross examine the witness/victims, you can make evidentiary objections forcing the other side to really prove their case and bring in witnesses, instead of just hearsay, for example, and you can make an argument. If the client is guilty, you can still ask for, and will likely get, some form of visitation with the children, at least supervised. TH and her attorney didn't even do that. She did nothing to mount any defense at all to the allegations, not even one in which she remained completely silent.
I know how the law works in this context and I also know the power of the mother-child bond so this, of all things, is the one thing that tipped me cleanly off the fence and has kept me off that fence. IMO, the only thing that could keep a person from mounting a defense or asking for, at the least, some form of visitation, would be that that person knows they have done something and are desperately trying to stay out of prison.
TH is going down for this and I am super confident that she should.
I see what you're saying; But imo it wouldnt be so weird or a red flag for her not to fight it if she is emotionally or mentally disturbed and/or not attached to her child. Bizarre and unthinkable to us, but it happens. Im not saying that she is one thing or another; but if she were, then - in that instance - it wouldnt strike me as odd, unusual etc

Susan10
07-28-2010, 04:01 PM
I don't think she had the heart to do it. She would have been too upset the rest of the day had she actually killed him or seen it done. In the end, she chickened out & called in her wing-man to do the dirty deed.

That is how a relatively normal person would feel. Any person who could plan and murder a child and then dispose of his body would not be upset about it later. Any apprehension experienced would be in the form of "I hope I covered my tracks and don't get caught." It is possible she paid someone else to do it, tho.

As a real life example of that type of person, Ted Bundy ate a hamburger moments after he murdered one of his victims. The mother of his child (who cooperated fully with LE) said that she noticed nothing out of the ordinary about his demeaner that day.

Donjeta
07-28-2010, 04:02 PM
Snowball, you said something very important about remembering your day: "Maybe my account is initially muddled //"

So, you tell cops your story. But, being in shock and "muddled", you forget that you stopped by the shoe store, or the farmer's market, or, or ,or. Or you did things in a different order, or your "to do" list said one thing but you did another.

So, later, your cellphone pings don't match up with what you said. Or someone says "hey, I saw her at the library dropping books in the slot at 2 p.m." and you told the cops you went to the big box store at about 1 p.m. and spent 2 hours there. Whatever.

Then LE tells you that you're lying. And then they start hammering on you because "if you're lying about this" what else are you lying to us about? Why didn't you tell us when you were at the library? Because it's only a block away from where Mr. Smith, your ex-husband, was killed?"

You can say "oops, I forgot, I did run by the library on the way to the store and just drove up by the drop box" but the damage is already done. There are inconsistencies in your story and you've lied to police--in their world.

I'm not so sure about that, I think that the police are, for the most part, familiar with the phenomenon of forgetting and it wouldn't be the first time they've ever come across a witness intending to be truthful who doesn't get everything completely right. Truthful people may and often do add detail to their statement when questioned another time, and it is sometimes even thought a mark of a liar if your statement is too fixed and unamendable.

Sure, they might confront you with the inconsistencies and try to pressure you about it to see if you crumble but IMO they wouldn't necessarily think you're the perp simply because you forgot you went to the library because you wouldn't be the first witness who forgets something.

KopDog
07-28-2010, 04:03 PM
To me, it's clear based on one very verifiable fact: TH failed to fight the RO request or for any custodial/visitation rights to her own baby/toddler. As a family law attorney, that caused alarm bells to go off for me. Nothing else has been verified - phone pings, not passing LDTs, her convenient story about riding rural roads with a sick baby on the day Kyron went missing, the MFH plot - none of it, although I believe those things will eventually be verified. But it is a known fact that this woman gave up custody of her child and even the right to see her baby at all.
Even bad mothers, abusive mothers do not do that. To separate a mother from her toddler is an incredible thing. For the mother not to fight such a separation, something is very, very wrong.
I would instruct my clients not to testify of make statements that could be used against them in connection with a criminal case, at a civil hearing. But you can still mount a defense in a civil DV case without the accused's testimony. And I have. You can cross examine the witness/victims, you can make evidentiary objections forcing the other side to really prove their case and bring in witnesses, instead of just hearsay, for example, and you can make an argument. If the client is guilty, you can still ask for, and will likely get, some form of visitation with the children, at least supervised. TH and her attorney didn't even do that. She did nothing to mount any defense at all to the allegations, not even one in which she remained completely silent.
I know how the law works in this context and I also know the power of the mother-child bond so this, of all things, is the one thing that tipped me cleanly off the fence and has kept me off that fence. IMO, the only thing that could keep a person from mounting a defense or asking for, at the least, some form of visitation, would be that that person knows they have done something and are desperately trying to stay out of prison.
TH is going down for this and I am super confident that she should.

I posted earlier about my thoughts and indicated that this is the only thing that is giving me a pause as well. And while I am not an attorney (my husband is and I ask him tons of questions, but that doesn't count), I have to imagine that there could possibly be a very good reason that her big time defense attorney does not want to battle out the murder for hire stuff in family court while there is such an intense criminal investigation going on. Do family courts have a different burden of proof? Would the family court judge finding in favor of KH have an impact on the criminal case down the road? Anyway, I agree it is weird and doesn't make sense, but I still don't believe that it means she was responsible for K's disappearance/death. She is obviously a suspect in this and could someday face a murder charge, if only based on circumstantial evidence. She obviously knows this and so all of mother-bond instincts might be on the back burner while her life is spinning out of control.

WhyaDuck?
07-28-2010, 04:03 PM
Not saying that she did it, but any person who could plan and murder a child and then dispose of his body would not be upset about it later. Any apprehension experienced would be in the form of "I hope I covered my tracks and don't get caught."

As a real life example of that type of person, Ted Bundy ate a hamburger moments after he murdered one of his victims. The mother of his child (who cooperated fully with LE) said that she noticed nothing out of the ordinary about his demeaner.

I think that would depend on whether it was premeditated or in a fit of rage or something. I could see someone being extremely agitated after committing such a crime on the spur of the moment (even after cleaning up out of adrenalin out of fear for their survival afterwards), which is different than being a "hunter" like Bundy.

joshiesmom
07-28-2010, 04:03 PM
Snowball, you said something very important about remembering your day: "Maybe my account is initially muddled //"

So, you tell cops your story. But, being in shock and "muddled", you forget that you stopped by the shoe store, or the farmer's market, or, or ,or. Or you did things in a different order, or your "to do" list said one thing but you did another.

So, later, your cellphone pings don't match up with what you said. Or someone says "hey, I saw her at the library dropping books in the slot at 2 p.m." and you told the cops you went to the big box store at about 1 p.m. and spent 2 hours there. Whatever.

Then LE tells you that you're lying. And then they start hammering on you because "if you're lying about this" what else are you lying to us about? Why didn't you tell us when you were at the library? Because it's only a block away from where Mr. Smith, your ex-husband, was killed?"

You can say "oops, I forgot, I did run by the library on the way to the store and just drove up by the drop box" but the damage is already done. There are inconsistencies in your story and you've lied to police--in their world.

I know this is 100% true. After I told a teacher about my brother molesting me, I had police (with a CPS worker, too ~ all male, I might add) come to my school every day for a couple of weeks to pull me out of class and talk to me about the abuse. They wanted details: days it occurred, times, locations, positions, circumstances surrounding each incident, what I was wearing, what my brother was wearing, conversation, etc. I was almost-15 years old and the abuse had taken place over 7 YEARS. I did my best with giving them the details they asked for. When I was giving my deposition, I added in some information that I'd remembered about a particular incident and was immediately accused of lying because I hadn't "mentioned" that information previously.

What I learned from this experience was to always be able to prove what I say is true because the fact is that once you say something, trying to change your story is perceived as lying even if you're being completely honest.

Kat010, I agree 100% with what you're saying.

LadyL
07-28-2010, 04:04 PM
I think a lot of us are trying to apply our logic to something illogical. It doesn't make sense that a child disappears and it makes even less sense that a parent would be responsible. Therefore it's difficult, if not impossible, to fit these circumstances into a framework that we can understand.

So, what are we left with. How can we theorize about something that we can't understand? Well, we try to make the puzzle pieces fit. Someone really smart here had a post about forcing pieces to fit where they don't belong. (I wish I could find it to link to it and thank you to whoever it was). It's natural to try to do that when we're frustrated.

What if, though, the circumstances aren't within our framework of experience and there's no way we will ever understand or make sense of it? It's something I think a lot of us will have to accept if Kyron is found.

Anyway, this is my long-winded way of saying that I believe TH 'disappeared' Kyron. Much of it doesn't make sense right now but there are enough strange occurences that point to her IMO.

Why would she do it? Um, because she's probably a psychopath? There will never be a reason that will satisfy us - no reason will ever be understandable.

JMO MOO

cakegirl0905
07-28-2010, 04:08 PM
I see your points.
I have a question about the truck. Did she ask to use the truck for some purpose and then not use it for that reason? If I were up to no good, I think I probably would not do that. It seems too obvious and fishy

Also, people do bizarre things under stress and emergencies and tragedies etc You and I wouldnt be texting sexting in that horrific scenario, but people do things to distract them. Not saying that's why she did it bc IDK why, but that's just it, IDK; and just bc *I* wouldnt do it doesnt mean that folks dont do it. I did not say that very well.

But I do see what you're saying.

moo

I think she said she was using it because she had to pick up the exhibit? But then (according to the tape) she didn't? Help me out here y'all.

STEADFAST
07-28-2010, 04:12 PM
Snowball, you said something very important about remembering your day: "Maybe my account is initially muddled //"

So, you tell cops your story. But, being in shock and "muddled", you forget that you stopped by the shoe store, or the farmer's market, or, or ,or. Or you did things in a different order, or your "to do" list said one thing but you did another.

So, later, your cellphone pings don't match up with what you said. Or someone says "hey, I saw her at the library dropping books in the slot at 2 p.m." and you told the cops you went to the big box store at about 1 p.m. and spent 2 hours there. Whatever.

Then LE tells you that you're lying. And then they start hammering on you because "if you're lying about this" what else are you lying to us about? Why didn't you tell us when you were at the library? Because it's only a block away from where Mr. Smith, your ex-husband, was killed?"

You can say "oops, I forgot, I did run by the library on the way to the store and just drove up by the drop box" but the damage is already done. There are inconsistencies in your story and you've lied to police--in their world.

I think the problem arises at the point where when the police point out something like how you were seen at the library or how your cell pings point to a certain location, you keep denying you were there. That's where the real damage is done.
I could see cell pings maybe being wrong, but not bank records or store receipts. I find it hard to believe that Terri would be in one or more places, but ALL the outside indicators of where she was -- cell pings, bank records, store receipts, etc -- point to something different. (I don't know that they do; I'm just saying that it's not simply a matter of remembering, not being able to clear up what she was doing that day.)

nursebeeme
07-28-2010, 04:12 PM
Snowball, you said something very important about remembering your day: "Maybe my account is initially muddled //"

So, you tell cops your story. But, being in shock and "muddled", you forget that you stopped by the shoe store, or the farmer's market, or, or ,or. Or you did things in a different order, or your "to do" list said one thing but you did another.

So, later, your cellphone pings don't match up with what you said. Or someone says "hey, I saw her at the library dropping books in the slot at 2 p.m." and you told the cops you went to the big box store at about 1 p.m. and spent 2 hours there. Whatever.

Then LE tells you that you're lying. And then they start hammering on you because "if you're lying about this" what else are you lying to us about? Why didn't you tell us when you were at the library? Because it's only a block away from where Mr. Smith, your ex-husband, was killed?"

You can say "oops, I forgot, I did run by the library on the way to the store and just drove up by the drop box" but the damage is already done. There are inconsistencies in your story and you've lied to police--in their world.
that all makes sense... but why walk out of the interview/LDT?

Snowball58
07-28-2010, 04:13 PM
One more thing I want to add is that there is a big difference between the shock of your child missing from school and the adrenaline pumping through your veins if you are responsible for whatever happened and are trying to cover your tracks and are being questioned about your whereabouts in great detail - perhaps a level of detail you didn't anticipate. Seems KH, DY and TY were in the same boat as TH, yet it appears they have satisfied LE about their whereabouts that day. I'd say they were under tremendous strain and shock too.

Donjeta
07-28-2010, 04:15 PM
The truck isn't conclusive to me because DY says that she thought Terri was going to stay until the end of the science fair, (about 10 am I suppose), and she could have intended to pick up the project and take it home with her then. But sometimes people do have innocent reasons for not being able to do what they planned. Say, if she got the runs or the baby was sick and just cried all the time and she thought it was better to leave and come back for the project later. (These are just examples of innocent reasons to leave before you planned; neither seem very likely to me if she went grocery shopping instead of straight home.)

Pondering Mind
07-28-2010, 04:16 PM
You are 100% right. I own a business that generates a-lot of cash. Years ago there was a rash of hold-ups throughout our City. LE held a class for the businesses to help them cope during and after a hold-up. We were given tips such as place a tape on the door so when the perp leaves you at least can give the height of that person. They said that 99% of the people cannot remember details after a dramatic event such as a hold-up.

Of course there were those macho people that said they wouldn't give in if they were held up but the LE giving the course said "just be happy with yourself if you don't pee your pants." Meaning that you can say you will remember or that you will not give in but when it happens it's a whole totally different story.

bbm~
Ain't that the truth?! I was robbed @ gunpoint while at work a little over a year ago. It happened so fast and I all could concentrate on was a gun in my face. The 2 guys were caught after about 2 hours following a police chase across town, but it certainly wasn't because of my description. I ALWAYS thought that I would be more aware IF something like this happened, but flunked miserably. I had the height about right.. and knew that they both had something like a doo-rag on their head and those dang GOLD teeth that the azzhole w/the gun had. I'll never forget that gold 'grille'..:sick:..but was totally wrong on what they were wearing when I looked back @ the video. I would have sworn that both had on dark screen printed shirts of some kind and one did, but the other guy was wearing pink!..how'd I miss that!?..

Cher352
07-28-2010, 04:17 PM
All this talk about remembering make me start thinking about what I did today.

Today I meet my DH for lunch at a place about 30-35 min from the house. Now I remember I was suppose to meet him at 11:30 and I know I was about 10 min early and had to wait on him to arrive. Once he got there we had to wait on a couple of other people to join us.

Now as to what time we actually went into the restaurant and what time we came out I don't know exactly...did seem like a long lunch but no one was on any time constraints. I can't remember what time I actually got home and I did stop at the post office. When I got home I know I was off and on this board stopping several times to do some chores, it did rain for a while and now it is a little after 4PM.

Now if something happened to my DH or son and I had to account for my time today I would be hard pressed to accurately tell when any of things occurred. All I know for sure was I was arrived at the restaurant around 11:20-11:25 and I am sure we were there more than an hour maybe two and it is now just after 4. I don't remember what time I was at the PO or what time it rained, I could be off by as much as an hour. I can't even say for sure what time I got up this morning. By tomorrow I probably would not have remember what time I was posting this.

That is part of the problem with trying to get accurate time lines. Unless you have sometime like a job or an appt or something that makes you look to the clock your day tends to just blend together. Try it...try to remember exactly when everything happened today (and no fair if you have a job with specific start, quit and lunch time...LOL!) And please... don't tell me that I am the only one....please!

Snowball58
07-28-2010, 04:20 PM
The truck isn't conclusive to me because DY says that she thought Terri was going to stay until the end of the science fair, (about 10 am I suppose), and she could have intended to pick up the project and take it home with her then. But sometimes people do have innocent reasons for not being able to do what they planned. Say, if she got the runs or the baby was sick and just cried all the time and she thought it was better to leave and come back for the project later. (These are just examples of innocent reasons to leave before you planned; neither seem very likely to me if she went grocery shopping instead of straight home.)

And then took sick baby to the gym.

Patty G
07-28-2010, 04:20 PM
that all makes sense... but why walk out of the interview/LDT?

Did LE ever state Terri walked out of the interview OR has it only come from Kaine?

KopDog
07-28-2010, 04:25 PM
Did LE ever state Terri walked out of the interview OR has it only come from Kaine?

even if it did come from LE - if you were truly innocent and this is your 2nd or 3rd polygraph, with the same ridiculous questions, over and over and over....you could say, I have had it, your wasting my time, start looking for the reason perp.

Or she is guilty and couldn't stand the heat.

We don't know.

Patty G
07-28-2010, 04:25 PM
What do we know as FACT in this case that has directly come out of LE's mouth besides that Kryon is missing and was at school at some point and Terri brought him to school and took a photo of Kyron?

21merc7
07-28-2010, 04:27 PM
What do we know as FACT in this case that has directly come out of LE's mouth besides that Kryon is missing and was at school at some point and Terri brought him to school and took a photo of Kyron?

Yep, these are the only FACTS we know.

Patty G
07-28-2010, 04:28 PM
even if it did come from LE - if you were truly innocent and this is your 2nd or 3rd polygraph, with the same ridiculous questions, over and over and over....you could say, I have had it, your wasting my time, start looking for the reason perp.

Or she is guilty and couldn't stand the heat.

We don't know.

It would matter for sure if it came from LE, but it hasn't.

Patty G
07-28-2010, 04:28 PM
yep, these are the only facts we know.

bingo! :)

T-Rex
07-28-2010, 04:31 PM
You know the old saying, "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras"? Well, at first, it seemed like LE was trying to make the case for Terri riding a horse. But when facts didn't support that, instead of looking for another horse rider, they looked for Terri on a zebra.

Susan10
07-28-2010, 04:34 PM
Okay, I am ready for the slings and arrows. I definitely think she is involved in this. But I do understand people who want more proof.

I keep thinking about the "toxic cloud," as Emma so aptly put it, that was created by the way Terri and Kaine's relationship started. I think it is possible Desiree has not been a hands-on parent with Kyron, due to her illness and her frustration with standing up to Kaine. I soooo wish she did not live in Medford. I think it's possible Kyron would still be at home. But how could she know it would lead to this?

Anyway, back to Terri. I think she has a personality disorder of some kind, probably borderline personality disorder, and is not emotionally attached to either of her children. She is emotionally attached to the opinions of others. She needs constant attention, and caring for children is a selfless job that requires putting someone else's needs before your own. We have lots of examples of this, but the most recent is Kaine saying in the interview that Baby K was playing in her room when he came home. Huh? A child that age playing alone in her room?

I still believe that LE is encouraging, or at least allowing, the family to call out people who have information. It would be so easy for the sheriff to come out, for example, in yesterday's press conference, and say, "We understand Kaine and Desiree's frustration. They are missing their little boy. We have asked them not to comment on the investigation. Please understand that their comments are not coming from us."

I do think someone else is involved also. Although Terri is capable of filching friends' gin and vodka on her own, I don't think she is smart enough and self-controlled enough to manage a kidnapping or murder and the ensuing activity on her own. Accident or premeditated? I don't know. I think, as I have from the very beginning, that it was either an accident or she had help with the planning to get Kyron from the school. I believe somebody might even have taken him from the school...

There's more, but I know I have written a lot of speculation that feels "gut right" to me that others will not find acceptable.

If am wrong about this, I am very angry at LE for telling the parents of Skyline that their kids are safe in that school.

my bold above

If it was her, your point is proven. She hasn't been smart enough or self-controlled enough to pull it off. ITA.

WholeLottaRosie
07-28-2010, 04:41 PM
I have serious doubts about Terri being involved in and responsible for Kyron's disappearance, and here are a few of the reasons why --

The more Desiree and Kaine talk, the more I believe LE probably has very little evidence against Terri and, in some cases, I wonder if the "evidence" was manipulated in a legal way by LE in an effort to extract a confession from Terri. I'm thinking specifically about the LDT, especially in light of LE's recent comments pointing out the LDTs are used as tools. There was an air of backtracking and distancing in their statement, IMHO. If Terri told LE she was driving baby K around Portland to soothe an earache, I admit the alibi sounds weak. The thing is, the alibi is plausible, IMHO. I know people who use rides in the car to soothe their children; it's a very popular way to soothe children in Hollywood films. It's not unheard of or all that unusual, IMHO. It's only weak because it's not verifiable, but it's still plausible. Perhaps LE was less than truthful about results of the LDT because they didn't believe her alibi. There are reasonable explanations for Terri's behavior that day, though, especially if you believe baby K is probably teething which explains why she'd drive around, not go to the doctor, and would go to the gym. Babies are amazingly resilient, and can go from fussy to fine and vice versa, very, very quickly.

If LE had a solid case, in the press conferences, Desiree wouldn't rely so much on her mothering instincts and what I believe are superficial inconsistencies. The more Desiree talks, the more apparent it becomes that she's held a grudge against Terri for years, and regardless of whether or not the grudge is warranted, it's going to influence and perhaps even shape her opinions about Terri's behavior. Desiree was very vocal about Kyron crying and wanting to live with her and Tony, and the inference was that Terri was somehow responsible for Kyron's unhappiness, but then we found out that Kyron cried when he went to Desiree's. DY and KH later admitted he was having difficulty transitioning. The facts present a completely different situation, but the press and a lot of the public will never read that Kyron cried when he left Terri and Kaine and had to visit Desiree, only that "missing boy cried when he had to go home to stepmother!" or whatever other salacious headline is used.

There are a lot of accusations, a lot of implications, that are slowly being clarified or eaten away at, IMHO. And, IMHO, when you get to the root of why Desiree believes Terri is responsible, it's because Desiree has instincts and Terri didn't behave and react in the way Desiree thought she should.

LE has no evidence of a murder scene. None. Terri is not some hardened criminal with years of experience in pulling off crimes such as this one. If Terri is responsible, she abducted and murdered a child she'd raised for most of his life. Her biological children were attached to this child. She was married to this child's father. Killing him, seeing his lifeless, perhaps bloody body, discarding him somehow, all with her daughter nearby, is unfathomable to me, especially since she then carried on in a completely normal fashion, totally calm, acting in character, for the rest of the day. And, then, there's no physical evidence. None in the truck. None on her clothes. None in the house. After forty years of living a normal life, she's able to pull off this crime leaving behind no physical evidence, carrying on about her day, going to the gym, arriving home, sending e-mails to Desiree, posting pictures on Facebook (and it's interesting to note that Terri didn't rush right home and post the pictures to establish some sort of alibi, she posted them hours later).

As much as some are hopeful, I think most would admit it's unlikely Kyron is alive. Hell, I'm hopeful, but I believe it's highly improbable that Kyron is alive. If he's dead and Terri killed him, there should be evidence even without a body, IMHO.

Thank you, Cypress! You have expressed beautifully my feelings. My hands thank for saving me all the typing!

Aedrys
07-28-2010, 04:44 PM
My gut tells me she's guilty, and my gut is usually not wrong.

That being said, without definitive proof, I feel like I'm constantly going up to bat for my position...and then realizing I don't have a bat to hit a point out of the ballpark with. It sucks, and I really don't like it. So I believe she's guilty for a lot of the reasons people have already talked about, but those reasons can't get her convicted in a court of law.

On another note, Dede really, really, REALLY needs to get her darn immunity and talk! I have a feeling what she might know may finally be something concrete that ties Terri to the crime. But she's smug and wanting her immunity before she says anything. It just better be worth the immunity, that's all I'm saying.

I also want to comment on the memory thing. A child going missing is a hugely traumatic event. It's akin, in my mind, to what happened on Sept. 11, 2001. I can still recall in great detail my entire day that day. It is something I will never forget as long as I live. Why? Because my physical safety and mortality was in dire question for the first time in my entire life. I didn't feel safe at all. I felt frightened, confused, vulnerable, and shocked and stunned that this could actually happen.

I think that feeling is similar to losing a child. These parents, even if they are shock, probably felt incredibly vulnerable and frightened for Kyron's physical safety. They probably felt confused as they don't know where he is or who really has him (they have suspicions, yes, but that doesn't totally quiet that nagging voice in the back of their mind that it might NOT be Terri. That is too frightening to even consider). They are stunned this could happen to them, shocked it happened to them, and frightened that they'll never get him back. Of course they are going to be able recall in detail everything they did that day. Every where they were, everything that happened because they care about him and love him, and every second of that last day he was seen is probably etched in their minds forever. Obviously, they rememebered enough to not be suspicious of the police, or they would be the ones in the hot seat right now, not Terri.

The fact that Terri couldn't remember tells me she didn't care near as much for Kyron's physical safety, that this day is not etched in her mind at all, and if she is innocent, she's made the huge mistake of being so emotionless about a missing little boy. She wasn't traumatized by him being missing, or she would have been able to call up every detail of that day and not have a timeline that doesn't add up. I know memory is not perfect, but there are those things that get etched in your memory forever, and I would think having a child go missing is one of them.

I think it's mostly the fact that the only thing she appears to care about in this case is herself and tending to her needs that leads me to believe she did something to him. Because like Casey, he was in her way for some reason, or she wanted to use him to specifically hurt someone, and to do that she had to get rid of him, and so she did, and just washed her hands of it. He wasn't important, he's gone, move on and don't look back. With an attitude like that, it's no wonder she's looking so guilty for what happened to Kyron. Shoot, she doesn't even seem to care one bit for her biological children. What category does that put Kyron in then?

Finally, I don't think you have to be smart to get away with a murder. Look at the Croslins in Florida. You're going to tell me the group of them has the IQ to murder a child and hide her body? But yet somehow they did. And I do think Terri had help as well, probably from BFF Dede. I just don't know for sure until what Dede knows comes out.

But again, I have no solid evidence. I can't go up to bat on this. And if my gut is wrong, and the police are wrong, and another child goes missing from Skyline, God help us all.

citigirl
07-28-2010, 04:50 PM
I think a lot of us are trying to apply our logic to something illogical. It doesn't make sense that a child disappears and it makes even less sense that a parent would be responsible. Therefore it's difficult, if not impossible, to fit these circumstances into a framework that we can understand.

So, what are we left with. How can we theorize about something that we can't understand? Well, we try to make the puzzle pieces fit. Someone really smart here had a post about forcing pieces to fit where they don't belong. (I wish I could find it to link to it and thank you to whoever it was). It's natural to try to do that when we're frustrated.

What if, though, the circumstances aren't within our framework of experience and there's no way we will ever understand or make sense of it? It's something I think a lot of us will have to accept if Kyron is found.

Anyway, this is my long-winded way of saying that I believe TH 'disappeared' Kyron. Much of it doesn't make sense right now but there are enough strange occurences that point to her IMO.

Why would she do it? Um, because she's probably a psychopath? There will never be a reason that will satisfy us - no reason will ever be understandable.

JMO MOO

I'm with you on this. But my experience includes contact with two women who had borderline personality disorder (diagnosed) and a close family member who is a sociopath (diagnosed). And Terri's behavior follows the same kinds of patterns I have seen with them. Desiree's does not. Desiree's behavior makes sens to me.

I am not a clinician, so I cannot diagnose Terri, and a clinician could not diagnose Terri from what he reads about her on the internet, but Terri's behavior makes sense only when I can recollect what these other women have done.

Bethlamb16
07-28-2010, 04:52 PM
Hi all. I have been following this case very closely and for whatever reason I am obsessed with it. I am on the fence but what I can't figure out is if TH did it, why didn't she have her ablibi more wrapped up. Also, why didn't she make sure someone at the school saw her leave alone so that she wouldn't be a suspect. Everyone knows the first suspects in a case like this are the parents/step-parents so it seems to me that she would have been smarter in having a rock-solid alibi ready as well as making sure she was seen leaving the school without Kyron, otherwise, she was really dumb if she did this. Just my opinion but would be interested to know what others think about her not being ready with her alibi, etc. This is the main thing that keeps me on the fence that she didn't do it.

TxLady2
07-28-2010, 04:53 PM
See, I know I couldn't do that. I mean, I could say what I did, but I'd probably forget to add a couple mundane things, and I know I couldn't tell the times for everything.

A person doesn't realize at 8am that something terrible is going to happen at 4pm and therefore they catalog every moment in that day. I personally don't look at the clock every time I visit the bathroom or change a diaper or even make lunch. I could give generalities ~ ie; in the morning, I got a phone call, checked my email & watched a movie, but I know I could not give exact timeframes for when I was doing each activity.

And I can tell you this, when LE is questioning someone about what they did a certain day, after they go over it once, then they will say, "Let's go over that day again", then they will purposely skip around. That helps them to decide if the person is lying. If they can remember details when jumping from 8 am down to 5 pm, then back up to noon, and back and forth, then they are telling the truth. If they have trouble remembering details unless they are in order... LE knows they're having trouble remembering the script.
And heaven forbid if they get a few details wrong... then they start hammering... "We know you were at such-and-such...you lied about that, what else are you lying about?"

BeanE
07-28-2010, 04:55 PM
What do we know as FACT in this case that has directly come out of LE's mouth besides that Kryon is missing and was at school at some point and Terri brought him to school and took a photo of Kyron?

That Terri was the last known person to see him before he disappeared.

That he was never seen leaving the school.

That there have been about 3,300 tips.

hmmmm... that's about it.

:(

WholeLottaRosie
07-28-2010, 04:56 PM
I am definitely not convinced TH did this but if all the rumors are true then I definitely would not be surprised to see that she did. The problem I am having is that the rumors have been highly publicized with hardly any type of actual confirmation from LE.

Even the statements from TH herself about the LDT and the pings may not accurate. LE are known to lie to a suspect about these type things in order to try to get them to confess.

So in essence I really dislike the way LE is handling this whole case. No info from LE and they are letting the press and Kyrons parents run rampant with only a couple short written disclaimers here and there about the info not coming from them. If LE knows something being said out there in the media is either true or false I wish they would state it in a public forum so that people could help. The way it is now no one is even looking at anything out of the ordinary unless it has to do with TH.

And I guess that is my biggest fear; that TH is not the guilty party and because I feel LE has only focused on her all these weeks then the trail is probably too cold to find the real culprit.

I agree.

This is something that also has occurred to me, MOO. I wonder if LE hasn't felt pressure since day one to make sure that whatever happened to Kyron, doesn't have anything to do with the schools. It is apparent from reading the various articles in this case - well I mean, I read the articles and I have a big tendency to start ready other news on the page - I do this in most cases, and then find myself asking myself, why on earth am I reading local Whatever City news when it has nothing to do with either the case or my life, but, I do, all the time. From reading it is apparent that there are money issues in Portland, and Oregon, just like there are all over right now. One thing I have seen is the Portland schools are having trouble, to the point that they nearly eliminated Physical Education from all schools. So, I guess I just started wondering, what if the PTB put pressure on LE to make it anything but something we are liable for.

Again, just MOO.

angelmom
07-28-2010, 04:59 PM
One more thing I want to add is that there is a big difference between the shock of your child missing from school and the adrenaline pumping through your veins if you are responsible for whatever happened and are trying to cover your tracks and are being questioned about your whereabouts in great detail - perhaps a level of detail you didn't anticipate. Seems KH, DY and TY were in the same boat as TH, yet it appears they have satisfied LE about their whereabouts that day. I'd say they were under tremendous strain and shock too.

It's a lot easier to account for your day when you are at work, with witnesses and security cameras and computer log ins, and maybe even ID passes that have to be swiped and log the time. Terri's witness is a 20 month old baby. Mine is usually the dog. No help.


What do we know as FACT in this case that has directly come out of LE's mouth besides that Kryon is missing and was at school at some point and Terri brought him to school and took a photo of Kyron?

I think that about covers it. Oh, and the reward is now $50K.

tiredblondy
07-28-2010, 05:02 PM
I have been catching up and just read "nooner amore". I will never forget that and what a great description.

Do we have a thread here at Websleuths for words like that that have been coined here during a case? If so "nooner amore " definitely needs to be added.

For what it's worth I found my Dad deceased one evening at his house(natural causes) and I can still tell you everything I did that morning and early afternoon before I found him.

TxLady2
07-28-2010, 05:03 PM
Finally, I don't think you have to be smart to get away with a murder. Look at the Croslins in Florida. You're going to tell me the group of them has the IQ to murder a child and hide her body? But yet somehow they did. And I do think Terri had help as well, probably from BFF Dede. I just don't know for sure until what Dede knows comes out.

But again, I have no solid evidence. I can't go up to bat on this. And if my gut is wrong, and the police are wrong, and another child goes missing from Skyline, God help us all.

snipped for space.
BBM

Whoa!!
I didn't know anyone had been charged with Haleigh's murder yet, much less convicted.
I musta missed something.

Kimster
07-28-2010, 05:04 PM
I have been catching up and just read "nooner amore". I will never forget that and what a great description.

Do we have a thread here at Websleuths for words like that that have been coined here during a case? If so "nooner amore " definitely needs to be added.

For what it's worth I found my Dad deceased one evening at his house(natural causes) and I can still tell you everything I did that morning and early afternoon before I found him.


The Jury Room would be a fun place for a WS coined phrase thread. :)

BTW, I'm enjoying the discussion and appreciate the tone of the thread. Carry on! :grouphug:

tiredblondy
07-28-2010, 05:05 PM
We also know for a fact that an RO was issued by a judge based on statements presented to him.

We also know for a fact that Terri has hired a criminal defense attorney.