Missing Fort Worth Three- Must Read

[Kaiser Sousa]

old Photo of inside the open area of the mall.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/spaceageboy/2773054422/

[Kaiser Sousa]

I think I'll go to the library soon to read the old newspaper articles when it happened, I'll copy them but the copies dont scan well, but I'l try to show them to ya'll.

[snowme]

Thanks for the description... that actually was easy to follow and picture!

Hmm, on the private messaging... I'm stumped as to why the option isn't there. Maybe someone else knows if there is some other option that needs "turning on" before you get that option? Or.... just had a thought... it may have something to do with how new to the site you are and the low number of posts you have thus far. I recall that those things had an affect on when you can sign up to private social groups that are created here... maybe it extends to other "perks" as well such as private messaging?? Anyone know?

Sorry it didn't work for you Kaiser Sousa, I was hoping it would be that simple. ;-) what in life is, right?! :-)

[snowme]

old Photo of inside the open area of the mall.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/spaceageboy/2773054422/

Thanks for that... that's what I was picturing!

[snowme]

I think I'll go to the library soon to read the old newspaper articles when it happened, I'll copy them but the copies dont scan well, but I'l try to show them to ya'll.

Good luck, I hope you find a little tidbit or nugget we've not seen so far! Keep us posted.

[Balthazar]

i DONT KNOW IF I TURNED ON ANYTHING LIKE A PM?

No, you turned on your personal email which does not protect your email identity. Here's what to do to enable private messaging:

1. Scroll to top of this screen, select User CP in the blue bar at the top
2. Scroll down to Settings and Options on the left side of the screen
3. Click on Edit Options
4. Now looking at the middle part of the screen under Receive Email, uncheck Receive email from other members and then scroll down to Private Messaging and check Enable Private Messaging
5. Finally scroll all the way to the bottom of the page and click on the button that says Save Changes.

Maybe you need to make more posts, if this stuff doesn't show up yet.

Hope that helps!

[Balthazar]

[quote=snowme;3869227]edited by me, with respect...

Does anyone know of any other cases in/around the area back then that also had a note delivered to family/roommates/friends to excuse or explain the sudden and immediate absence of someone missing? (this thinking came from Princess Rose bringing forward an older post regarding statistics of missing/found girls in the area of the time)

... But what if the letter's purpose was to throw attention onto Rachel and away from the idea that one of the other girls was the reason for the incident? [quote]

I don't know of any other cases with a note quite like the one Rachel supposedly wrote, unfortunately. However, there was a note comprised of words cut from newspapers in the Killing Fields murders. There were lots of disappearances (over 40) and I'm still not convinced the trio's disappearance wasn't part of the I45 Killing Fields murders. There is another I45 Killing Fields murder that included 2 girls - both around age 14 - so it is not beyond the spectrum of belief that whoever was responsible for those murders had a methodology to capture more than one victim at the same time. As I noted earlier I45 leads to Mansfield Hwy which leads directly to E Seminary Dr. which is exactly where Seminary South Mall was - and E Seminary Dr, I believe runs along the side of the mall where the upper parking lot was (North side of mall.) It seems to me that the timing, just before Christmas and the number of girls taken would be "attractive" to an unsub or unsubs who prided themselves on taking women and enjoyed the resulting media attention. If it was the same unsub(s) then he/they would especially enjoy the notoriety the timing (Christmas) the number taken would bring them. Link to story about these murders below:

http://www.geocities.com/verbal_plainfield/activecases/i45linkage.html


What if the unsub(s) in the I45 Killing Fields cases returned home to Ft. Worth, Throckmorton or some other town nearby for Christmas that year? Could the mention of Houston in the letter purportedly from Rachel have been to connect the trio's disappearance to the Killing Field murders? (Diege, this is why I was asking if Rachel had any relationship to Houston whatsoever - a friend's name or where she went on a honeymoon or anything, if not, I believe the mention of Houston may have been to tie the trios' disappearance to the I45 murders.)

Adding complexity to this case, back in the 1970's police in Texas were very territorial, so they wouldn't particularily work together or share information on similar cases from city to city, much less state to state.

Julie only decided to go on this shopping trip that morning - in fact, her mom didn't want her to go because she didn't have any money, but relented because Julie said she was bored. So, it is hard to think that she could be the victim of a premeditated crime. But anything is possible.

I do think that Renee needs to be considered in terms of could she have been the victim of a premeditated crime. We know she got that promise ring that morning...

[Balthazar]

More on the I45 Killing Fields, look at this website and look at the circumstances under which Maria Johnson, age 15 and Debbie Ackerman, age 15 disappeared together - from Galveston Mall. http://www.crimesearch.net/Fact_Page_I-45S.html

http://officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=1050&page=2

I also noticed that Amber Hagerman's disappearance from Arlington, TX in the 1990's is now listed as a possible I45 murder:

http://psu-sk.tripod.com/frames/i45-victims.html

Arlington, TX is 14 miles away from Ft. Worth, TX.

The trio's disappearance bears striking resemblance to other I45 murders and, IMO should be classified with this group until such time as it can be utterly ruled out as not belonging to this group of disappearances and murders.

[Kaiser Sousa]

Was there a book on the I-45 killings?

Doesnt look like the bodies were hidden, just dropped off the beaten path, am i correct?

Any DNA available from the killer from these murders?

[Balthazar]

Was there a book on the I-45 killings?

Doesnt look like the bodies were hidden, just dropped off the beaten path, am i correct?

Any DNA available from the killer from these murders?

No book that I know of, the name is probably familiar to you due to the movie "The Killing Fields" - about Cambodia or possibly the other so-called Killing Fields murders in Juarez Mexico.

The I-45 Killing Fields victims include Texas Equusearch, Tim Millers' own daughter.

Police believe that these murders that span the 1970's up until present day are the work of more than one killer. The known suspects are listed here:

http://psu-sk.tripod.com/frames/i45-suspects.html

The victims were murdered and left in many different ways both hidden and unhidden. This index includes a link for the Case Analysis which describes all the different ways:

http://psu-sk.tripod.com/frames/contents.html

The problem is there are so many potential suspects, some still unknown.

[ZubenElSchemali]

Thanks for the links, Princess. I agree, they should all be looked at as a group until shown not to be connected. The close proximity to the same highway and general age range are two similarities.

I agree it is highly unlikely that a letter would get there in less than 24 hours going through the post, on Christmas eve, especially with a postmark from a different town. I think this post mark needs to be looked at closely to determine which post office it came from, along with any potential DNA, of course. I just can't believe that hasn't been done yet. And why all the silence in the investigation and apparent lack of cooperation between agencies?

A thought occurred to me as I was thinking about the postmark and the highway, while looking on Google Earth. Who would travel the highway regularly, make stops at convenience stores, malls, etc, and have access to a postal meter? A postal worker, especially one who transports mail from town to town, from the airport to the post offices, etc. The post mark, the DNA evidence and the long term postal employees is where I would start. If there is a way to hand load the meter he could put any meter number in there. I wonder if there were letters in any of the other cases. He wouldn't necessarily have had to mail it if he put the meter stamp on there himself and put it in the box in the middle of the night.

Also, many of these abductions seem to focus on the head area. I would look for a clue there, such as the head post office, not the local or a small one from a small town, the head of something, maybe the head of the highway. It could be a late March-late April connection such as a birthday then. Aries is connected to the head. Maybe the perp likes to drive a Dodge, the ram as the symbol.

[TexasSandman]

I believe I already posted this but will say it again... in reference to the letter and dna... Rusty said "dna was found on the letter but it cant be identified."

Not sure if that means no match was found...or if it the sample was degraded or what..but wanted to point out that they have attempted to use modern technology on the letter.

[ZubenElSchemali]

I believe I already posted this but will say it again... in reference to the letter and dna... Rusty said "dna was found on the letter but it cant be identified."

Not sure if that means no match was found...or if it the sample was degraded or what..but wanted to point out that they have attempted to use modern technology on the letter.

I'm sorry. I must have missed that. I wonder if they compared to any DNA in any of the other cases in the area. Hmmm If no match was found then it couldn't have been Rachael's then, correct?

Thank you Sandman.

[Balthazar]

I'm trying to remember if there was a post office just outside of the Seminary South Mall. Does anyone remember? I do remember there were government offices there - I got my Social Security card there at one point in the 1980's.

[Balthazar]

I believe I already posted this but will say it again... in reference to the letter and dna... Rusty said "dna was found on the letter but it cant be identified."

Not sure if that means no match was found...or if it the sample was degraded or what..but wanted to point out that they have attempted to use modern technology on the letter.

Texas Sandman, thank you for posting that. Somehow, I too missed that.

[TexasSandman]

Princess the closest Post Office was on Felix Street...maybe half a mile to a mile from the Mall by back roads. However, I'm certain there were drop mailboxes at the mall but I think it would be next to impossible for a letter mailed from there to reach Rachel's house the next day. Even sent from that post office it would've had to have been sent quite early on the 23rd in my opinion. And the postmark would have been different I'm sure.

[Balthazar]

I've been thinking about several possibilities in this case.

In the I45 Killing Fields murders, on November 11, 1971, two 15 year old girls, Debbie Ackerman and Maria Johnson were taken from Galveston Mall, last seen getting into a White Ford van. Their bodies, hands and feet bound and shot twice were found two days later in Turner's Bayou in Texas City - that's around 10 miles North of where Galveston Mall was and close to I45 and Hwy 3. A suspect named Ed Bell confessed to this and many, many more murders of young women in a letter. He gets out of prison in 2011 and has not been charged in any of the cases he confessed to which crossed multiple jurisdictions in Texas and Louisiana. Apparently what he wrote was such that prosecutors didn't feel it strong enough to charge him - he could be yanking their chain or he might actually be the killer. The I45 case is discussed here - very interesting discussion:
http://www.topix.com/forum/houston/TE13NVCQME9TU1JUK/p8

I found a post on this page by Jane very interesting:


"We are swiftly approaching the 36th anniversary of the rape and murder of Debbie Ackerman and Maria Johnson of Galveston. These two 15-year-old girls were last seen alive talking to someone driving a white van on a street in Galveston. Their raped and bound bodies were found 3 days later in Turner’s bayou near Dickenson. They had both been shot in the head and dumped into the bayou.
Debbie’s parents both went to their graves with their souls in turmoil. They never knew what had happened to their little girl. They anguished over their loss every day of their lives since November 15, 1971.
I never met Debbie, but I was also a 15-year-old girl in 1971. I would have thought Debbie was one of the luckiest kids in the world to live in Galveston. I have since become a family-member by marriage.
I have learned that the state of Texas has in it’s custody a man who very likely murdered Debbie and Maria, and probably many more young girls. I have learned that he mailed handwritten, unsolicited confessions to officials in Harris and Galveston counties some time in the 1990s. Detective Fred Paige in Galveston has a list of over two dozen “coincidences” placing this man in close proximity to many young girls who turned up missing or dead during that time.
This man has a life. He has children and grandchildren who he has contact with. He ended all possibilities of a happy life—or any life-- for Debbie and Maria, and probably many more young girls.
Why has there not been coordination between the jurisdictions in which he committed his crimes? Why have Harris and Galveston and Liberty Counties not combined all their information about him to try to solve the many cold cases he was probably responsible for in the 70s and 80s?
Debbie’s mom died without ever knowing what happened to her daughter. I will continue to ask on her behalf: What happened to Debbie Ackerman and Maria Johnson? "

http://www.topix.com/forum/houston/TE13NVCQME9TU1JUK/p12

On the other hand...

Since we now know that Tommy got the letter out of his mailbox, it makes me wonder, why he would go to his mailbox at all in the morning if the mail was normally delivered in the afternoon. That doesn't make sense, does it? Unless, perhaps he suddenly remembered he forgot to get the mail the day before or he heard someone by the mailbox...Texas Sandman, did the houses on that street have mailboxes on their front porches or out by the curb?

[Balthazar]

Tt (19) married sf(16) on 10/23/1971 in tarrant county

tt (21) divorced sf (18) on 4/26/1974 in tarrant county

tt (21) married ra (16) on 6/8/1974 in tarrant county

ra disappears 12/74

tt (24) married jb (17) on 12/15/1976 in parker county (weatherford is in parker county)

tt (25) divorces jb (19) 6/13/1978 in throckmorton county

tt (26) marries rf (23) 8/31/1978 in parker county

4 marriages in the span of 6 years. Wow. Did TT stay married to RF or have there been more divorces and marriages in the following years?

What puzzles me is that his parents apparently died before he married Rachel, so theoretically, he would have inherited at least a portion of their estate (if they had anything or any life insurance.) Texas is a community property state, so each wife would get 50% of his worth. You would think after the first wife, he would not have wanted to get married for a long time due to his financial situation. But perhaps his parents left little to nothing so he didn't care.

[Kaiser Sousa]

What street did Tommy live on then ?

Our house in Wedgewood had the mailbox by the front door on the wall, every neighborhood I was familiar with in those days did too. An old postman I know says in 1974 the letter if mailed from Throckmorton would have spent the night in Abeline, if mailed in Weatherford there was a chance of next day delivery, depending on when and where it was picked up, but remember we are talking Xmas time and volume was heavy back then.

Did the letter for sure arrive the next morning after the dissapearance? I have asked that and not recieved an answer, I guess i can find out for sure when I go to the library.

[Kaiser Sousa]

What day of the week did they vanish? Anybody got an old calendar?

[Kaiser Sousa]

It was a Monday, good ole google

[Balthazar]

What street did Tommy live on then ?

Our house in Wedgewood had the mailbox by the front door on the wall, every neighborhood I was familiar with in those days did too. An old postman I know says in 1974 the letter if mailed from Throckmorton would have spent the night in Abeline, if mailed in Weatherford there was a chance of next day delivery, depending on when and where it was picked up, but remember we are talking Xmas time and volume was heavy back then.

Did the letter for sure arrive the next morning after the dissapearance? I have asked that and not recieved an answer, I guess i can find out for sure when I go to the library.

Yes, the letter definitely turned up on the morning of December 24th. Texas Sandman, who lived on the same street as Rachel said he does not recall ever having morning mail delivery on that street - however he was a child in 1974 so he might not have known. The last digit of the postmark is incomplete so they are not sure where the letter came from. I almost wonder if someone who had been a postal employee or knew postal employees or somehow bought a postmark stamp - maybe in a junk shop actually hand delivered the letter to Rachel's house.

As to what street - it was over off of 6th Street - not sure the exact address. Texas Sandman could tell you.

[Kaiser Sousa]

6th Avenue ? North of Elizabeth Blvd ? I lived in that neighborhood in 1974. Lots of longhairs, musicians and artists lived around there along with the older folk who had lived there forever.

[Kaiser Sousa]

my private messaging has been enabled now, i guess i was on probation

[Balthazar]

my private messaging has been enabled now, i guess i was on probation

Aha! At least that's one mystery solved today! LOL!

[mkath59]

4 marriages in the span of 6 years. Wow. Did TT stay married to RF or have there been more divorces and marriages in the following years?

What puzzles me is that his parents apparently died before he married Rachel, so theoretically, he would have inherited at least a portion of their estate (if they had anything or any life insurance.) Texas is a community property state, so each wife would get 50% of his worth. You would think after the first wife, he would not have wanted to get married for a long time due to his financial situation. But perhaps his parents left little to nothing so he didn't care.

Inheritance is not community property.

[Balthazar]

More information about the missing trio case including Mary Roger's investigative report indicates I am not alone in linking the trio's disappearance to the I45 murders.

MISSING TRIO FORT WORTH - Cold Case Investigations

[Balthazar]

...When last seen, Mrs. Trlica was wearing an orange and white striped blouse with high waisted jeans and brown shoes with large heels. She was wearing wedding rings, a gold dinner ring with diamonds and a heart shaped pendant.

Miss Wilson was wearing a yellow T shirt with "Sweet Honesty" written on the front in green lettering, blue hip hugger pants, ....., red and white oxford shoes, and a white gold ... diamond ring

Miss Mosley was last seen wearing a red long sleeved with blue denim pants and red tennis shoes with white toes....

Advocate
Victoria Texas
Monday, April 14, 1975

[Balthazar]

Rumor about the case:

"At the time, everyone was saying the girls led idyllic lives and had no reason to leave," Mr. Arnold said. "But Rachel wasn't happy, and Renee had her own troubles."
Mr. James agreed.
"They had the motive to leave, and they had the opportunity - except for Julie Ann," he said. "It was a serendipity mistake for her to go to the mall."
The two men said they suspect that the older girls asked someone to come get Julie Ann at the shopping center so they could then go wherever they'd planned.
"That person was supposed to return Julie Ann home, but it never happened," Mr. Arnold said. "We have no hard evidence, so we can't prove anything, but that's what all the things we've learned have led us to believe."

http://officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=2029&page=2

[Balthazar]

Possible additional cases in Ft, Worth:

Brenda Louise Hogan-White - disappeared Febuary 15, 1977, and her remains were found in June 2005.

Donna Williamson disappeared August 3, 1982- her remains were found in Johnson County in 1993, but were not identified until 2004

[tatertot]

This is my first post in a few days so it covers several subjects...

Princess Rose, that's a good point that Rachel might not have been the primary target of whoever made the girls disappear, and she could have become the focus of the investigation because she may have been the only girl with a license on her. Again, obviously since he was 11 when this happened Rusty's innocent, but I find his statement that "Julie was the true victim in all of this" rather unsettling...all three, regardless of their ages, strike me as victims in every sense of the word, no matter what happened that day. You have to wonder what he thinks happened to the older two girls if he doesn't think they were victimized as badly and were left alive, though I may be reading too much into his quote and he didn't mean it that way at all.

Debra, not to be nosy but the record of TT's marriages supports your statement from the article that your engagement to him wasn't "real." I assume you were engaged sometime before he married his first wife in 1971, when you would have been about 16. While I knew several girls who talked seriously about being engaged at that age, few of the marriages actually happened down the road, and I myself was "engaged" (minus the rings and newspaper announcement) at 20 but am married to someone else now. So having been in a similar boat, I can see why in hindsight you don't consider the engagement that real even though at the time it was probably very legitimate to you. I hope that LE didn't dwell too much on the fact that you were engaged at one point because IMHO it doesn't seem vital to the case.

Also, TT remarried Rachel less than two months after divorcing his first wife so I assume they'd separated sometime before. Mainly because I think he's as innocent as the rest of the family, I see the marriage records as a sign that TT had lasting trouble just as Debra said she and Rusty have had over the years...he had several early marriages that didn't work out.

PR, thank you for the quotes from the Cold Case thread. It's still hard to believe that if the girls left for their own reasons they wouldn't have eventually heard that Julie hadn't made it home safely. Why wouldn't they have called to say WHO they sent her home from the mall with? It makes no sense that they'd let that individual off scott-free.

[Kaiser Sousa]

This was stated in two of the newspaper articles on the cold case thread:


A few days later, a letter bearing Mrs. Trlica's name arrived at her husband's home. "I know I'm going to catch it, but we just had to get away," the letter says. "We're going to Houston. See you in about a week. The car is in the Sear's upper lot."


So when did the letter really get there

[justthinkin]

Rumor about the case:

"At the time, everyone was saying the girls led idyllic lives and had no reason to leave," Mr. Arnold said. "But Rachel wasn't happy, and Renee had her own troubles."
Mr. James agreed.
"They had the motive to leave, and they had the opportunity - except for Julie Ann," he said. "It was a serendipity mistake for her to go to the mall."
The two men said they suspect that the older girls asked someone to come get Julie Ann at the shopping center so they could then go wherever they'd planned.
"That person was supposed to return Julie Ann home, but it never happened," Mr. Arnold said. "We have no hard evidence, so we can't prove anything, but that's what all the things we've learned have led us to believe."

http://officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=2029&page=2

I'm glad you posted this, PrincessRose. I remember reading it on Rusty's site. Now that I look at it again, it makes zero sense. How would the older girls have known whether or not Julie Ann arrived home if they weren't home themselves? They would have either had to call home or driven by there to know the answer.

I get the idea from what Rusty has written that the wildest possible story makes more sense to him than the likely awful truth that his sister and the other two girls were murdered the day they disappeared.

And as Debra said there is no way those girls would've left town 2 days before Christmas. ITA with her on that. If they had problems, they'd have just put them off and dealt with them after Christmas.

I truly wonder what Tommy had gotten Rachel for Christmas that year or if he even had a gift ready for her to open on Christmas Eve or Day.

[justthinkin]

I spent quite a few hours researching the I-45 killings and suspects. There were only 4 girls ever found at the Calder Rd. place which got dubbed "the killing field," Tim MIller's daughter, Beth, being one of them.

I think LE had the right guy in their sights on those 4 killings though they never could tie him to the cases. I read they also searched a farm his family had in Austin County, and actually found the remains of a woman there. I also searched that, but Austin Co. does not have a person listed as a UID there, but she's listed on the doe network. That potential perp later committed suicide.

I would suspect some of the other numerous killings to be copy-cat killings, and I think the Allen Shore character is good for more deaths than he lets on. He looks enough like the drawing of the suspect in the Laura Smithers case to be good for her death too, imo.

I don't think the Ft. Worth girls can be considered as part of the I-45 murders. At the time they disappeared, all the killings had taken place in a span that stretched from Houston to Galveston. It was not until 1977 the girl was discovered north of Georgetown, Tx who became known as orange socks.

An interesting thing about her death is that she was found in a culvert, just like Carla Walker and Becky Martin. OTOH, culverts seem to be popular spots for disposing of bodies. Sheesh, the things I learn from looking into these cases. Still, orange socks could somehow tie back into Ft. Worth because of disposal similarity. I don't recall if Walker and Martin were found naked though. If not, then it would seem likely it was a diff killer from the person/s who killed them.

On a different note, I've begun to wonder about Terrell's statement that Wilhoit said, "I was wondering when you were going to come after me for Walker's murder." If I had to hazard a guess, I'd bet Wilhoit didn't say that, but Terrell said Wilhoit did, in trying to get the then current LE to look into Wilhoit again. They had dismissed both Terrell and the idea that Wilhoit did it, so that is the only statement Terrell could make to try to get them interested in Wilhoit again. It didn't work.

[Balthazar]

The letter arrived the morning of December 24:

"The 10-cent stamp had been canceled that morning: Dec. 24, 1974."

from the article by Mary Rogers.

[txsvicki]

Just listened to Rusty's radio interview on the missingtrio website and heard a couple of things. First off he seems to think something happened to Julie that made the older girls run...he says they were seen at a gas station the following morning getting into the pickup truck of the station's owner, and he stated to an employee that he was taking them to the bus station to head to Houston but first was going to get him a "little". Rusty goes on to say that that same employee went to his boss' house a few days later and saw blood stains and fresh digging in the yard. Rusty states the man would be in his 80's at the time of the interview and they have been unable to locate him.
Rusty then goes on to say there was another suspect, a family friend, but doesn't give a reason why and says the man is now deceased. And he never was a suspect until after he was dead.
Apparently Debra did indeed take a polygraph and the results indicated, at least in Rusty's viewpoint, she may know more about the disappearences than she has revealed.

He says more than once that the case centers around young Julie. "Something had to happen to her to make the other two not come home. And yes I'm saying I think she's alive." Refering to Rachel

He is also estranged from his mother Fran over this. (I knew she didn't share his theories but didn't know they were no longer speaking)

The biggest thing that struck me is the interviewer asked why Rachel wouldn't have contacted him and Rusty says "Whos to say she hasn't?" The interviewer didn't seem to catch this and says "And you just don't know about it?"
Rusty stammers and then says "Yeah, who's to say that she hasn't? And that ought to open alot of doors for you if you think about it with what I told you wallago."
I listened three times and it sure seems to me that Rusty is eluding to the fact that he has indeed heard from her.
Rusty seemed to think there would be something enlightening very soon, he said something about the police interviewing someone soon, and at the end he restates the recent polygraph.
If you haven't listened to it, I highly recommend doing so. I had to install a plugin for it but it was quick and was direct from microsoft. It's in the upper left corner of the missingtrio.com website. It will also let you watch a local TV News segment on the girls. Nothing new mentioned in it but they do restate that the police think they left with someone they knew, and then met with foul play.
With the 35th anniversary approaching I am hopeful we will see more press releases and interviews. This case needs another big round of media coverage. DNA has been mentioned several times, and that was in 2000 or 2001, methods and technology have come a long way since then..maybe it's time to examine the evidence once more.


Do you know the name of the gas station owner and if he had a gas station in any other Texas town the year or two prior?

[justthinkin]

txsvicki, would you care to please elaborate on what you're getting at? You've piqued my curiosity for sure.

[ZubenElSchemali]

I too was wondering the actual day of delivery of the letter, Princess Rose. I read three news articles on the page you linked and all three said it arrived a few days later. But it could simply be bad reporting, on taking the "facts" from another news article that didn't have the facts checked. The letter is a key piece of evidence.

[Balthazar]

I too was wondering the actual day of delivery of the letter, Princess Rose. I read three news articles on the page you linked and all three said it arrived a few days later. But it could simply be bad reporting, on taking the "facts" from another news article that didn't have the facts checked. The letter is a key piece of evidence.

I agree, the reporting on the case is terrible and contradictory. Some say a few days later and some say the next day. I would guess that Mary Roger's article is probably the best researched, so I tend to go with what she wrote, but that could be wrong. Even in my own memory, I feel like I remember the letter being announced on the news on Thursday or Friday of that week. But I don't know for sure.

[Balthazar]

txsvicki, would you care to please elaborate on what you're getting at? You've piqued my curiosity for sure.

Me, too! Is there something you know about that could possibly be related?

[Balthazar]

Because of the disjointed approach to law enforcement, I thought it would be interesting to get on the Doe Network and look up similar North Texas cases to the I45 murders. Basically, I concentrated on women and girls who were caucasian, ages 8 to mid twenties who disappeared around North Texas between 1970 and 2000. I found many of these - a disturbing number in fact. I eliminated those who disappeared in such a fashion that there was a reasonable suspect - such as a spouse or parent, those whose occupations might put them in harm's way and those who were likely runaways and those who were likely victims of the El Paso serial killer:

Susan Renee Smalley and Stacy Madison 1988 - missing from Dallas, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/102dftx.html
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/103dftx.html

Elizabeth Ann Campbell 1988 - missing from Copperas Cove, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/113dftx.html

Terrie Lynn Hefner 1984 - missing from Dallas, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/116dftx.html

Ashley Fuller Reed 1980 - missing from Garland, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/221dftx.html

Kimberly Rachel Norwood 1989 - missing from Hallsville, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/295dftx.html

Michelle Lee Richardson 1989 - missing from Palestine, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/339dftx.html

Elizabeth Bishop 1981 - missing from Abilene, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/357dftx.html

Dorothy Richardson 1981 - missing from Abilene, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/361dftx.html

Teresa Marie Byers 1979 - missing from Kilgore, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/427dftx.html

Kathy Mae Brownfield Gold 1982 - missing from Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/976dftx.html

Lorraine Migl Light 1989 - disappeared from Spring, TX
Spring is close to Houston, but I am including this case because it contains a phone call similar to Rachel's supposed note
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1102dftx.html

Jeane Naomi Loftin 1994 - disappeared from Carthage, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1108dftx.html

Sharon Zelinski McCully 1984 - disappeared from Austin, TX while Christmas shopping on Dec 11.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1114dftx.html

Carol Sue Snyder 1982 - disappeared from Richardson, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1156dftx.html

Kathleen Murphy 1976 - disappeared from Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1186dftx.html

Kristin Smith 1991 - disappeared from Beaumont, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1187dftx.html

Melissa Gail Crabill 1995 - disappeared from Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1281dftx.html

Kellli Ann Cox 1997 - disappeared from Denton, TX
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1833dftx.html

[justthinkin]

Here's something that may be kind of interesting. Anyone remember the short-lived GSW airport in Ft. Worth?

There's an article about it online.
http://www.airfields-freeman.com/TX/Airfields_TX_FtWorth_NE.htm

I'm not sure what year it was abandoned, but it was abandoned by 1974. In reading through the article, I found out that teenagers had held drag races out there until security guards were hired. I sure would like to know when they hired guards.

More than halfway into the article is a picture of a white souped up Chevy parked on a runway. Off in the near distance is a lot of vacant land and trees. Has it all been redeveloped? I wonder if LE ever thought to check out there. If the perp or perps were younger guys, they may have been attracted to the drag races out there or anything LE wouldn't approve of! Long shot, but who knows.

Also read there were lots of tunnels out there under the runways and terminals, and some guy who utilized the tunnels. Article called him the Airport Phantom. That kind of creeps me out. Said police tried to catch him but never could. What year was that guy running around out there? Guess he could have just been a clever transient or....

I also see now, that the airport wasn't really in Ft. Worth, but almost at Euless. Still, I wonder if LE checked that place. In reading about other cases here at WS, I've learned that some serial killers spend a lot of time scoping out places to dump their victims.

Maybe there were drag races out there the night the girls disappeared. Kids were all out of school. Maybe someone talked them into going out there & there were no drag races or there were. Maybe like Rusty says, someone swiped Julie Ann and the two older girls couldn't go home without her. Maybe they stayed out there to look for her. & the phantom got them. Okay, I'm weirding myself out. It seems the only thing that could make Rusty's theory plausible. Anyone else think it's a real possibility the girls may have gone off with someone they met at the mall, and planning on going to drag races later?

[txsvicki]

txsvicki, would you care to please elaborate on what you're getting at? You've piqued my curiosity for sure.

I was a teenager in '73 and had a bad experience with a owner of a gas station. Not wanting to go into details, but he was a monster lunatic. I once knew his name, but have since forgot, and can't even remember for sure if it was '72 or '73. I don't know if he moved away from Lubbock or not, but thought it was kind of a coincidence that another horrible gas station owner about the same age was reported in Dallas/Ft Worth area about 4 hours away. If I knew the name of the Dallas person it might click if they are the same person.

[Stella]

PrincessRose, you left off your list one of the most puzzling (for me) cases-Kelli Dae Wilson. She's on Doe Network, et al. Really strange case!

[Balthazar]

PrincessRose, you left off your list one of the most puzzling (for me) cases-Kelli Dae Wilson. She's on Doe Network, et al. Really strange case!

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/wilson_kelly.html

What a horrifying case. I only left it off due to her carrying large sums of cash which doesn't fit with the trio case, but you never know this could somehow be related to the trio case.

[Stella]

On the Kelli Dae Wilson case, a bank camera at the drive thru deposit caught someone making the deposit that night. They just can't or won't say if it was Kelli or not.

[Balthazar]

I was a teenager in '73 and had a bad experience with a owner of a gas station. Not wanting to go into details, but he was a monster lunatic. I once knew his name, but have since forgot, and can't even remember for sure if it was '72 or '73. I don't know if he moved away from Lubbock or not, but thought it was kind of a coincidence that another horrible gas station owner about the same age was reported in Dallas/Ft Worth area about 4 hours away. If I knew the name of the Dallas person it might click if they are the same person.

What a horrifying experience. Thank goodness you survived this. I would suggest asking Rusty through the trio website or asking Texas Sandman to ask Rusty.

BTW: You are not setup to receive private messages. I have a name I would like to run by you, but not on a public website. Perhaps you need to make more posts before you can receive private messages?

[Balthazar]

Justthinkin': I thought a lot about Rusty's theory that Rachel and Renee ran away and gave Julie to someone else and somehow Julie died and so on. To me there are several problems:

1. Renee just received and accepted a promise ring that very morning.
2. If Rusty's idea that Debra is involved was correct, I could understand Rachel remaining loyal to her sister because they were so very close, but the situation is very different for Renee. I would think when Renee realized she could NEVER see her parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, friends and new boyfriend again, she would resent the situation and she and Rachel's friendship would have broken down as they matured. At some point I think Renee would have returned and told police the truth. If she had participated in any way - such as hiding the body, she was underage - only 14 at the time, so I doubt she would be in much trouble. An adult would realize that. Between Debra passing two polygraphs and the lack of logic to Rusty's theory, I just don't see how this would work.
3. Asking multiple people to go shopping with them that day - these are not the actions of two people who are going to run away.
4. Renee's Christmas gift for Rachel's stepson - why bother or spend the money if you are running away?
5. Picking up layaway - why bother or spend the money if you are running away?

So for the above reasons, I feel certain that these girls were abducted by a stranger or someone they knew but should not have trusted. But I would be just as interested in reading your theory as to how this might work if the girls were runaways! You may well have thought of some stuff I haven't and with a cold case like this, the more thought we put into it, the more likely we are to be able to help these families somehow.

As to the airport - I think there is a lot of development going on in that area and many times that is how bodies are found. It is an interesting idea and I really enjoyed the article you linked here! That airport was the first one I ever flew into, btw - I was an infant and my parents lived in California at the time and my mom couldn't wait to show me off to her family, so she flew cross country with me to that very airport where her dad picked us up!

[justthinkin]

txsvicki, how horrible for you. Glad you got away.

Princess Rose, I did not mean the girls ran away. I'll have to go back and reread my post to see what I said exactly.

At the back of my mind has been how the girls were lured from the mall so when I read about the drag races at the abandoned airport, I thought, now thats something teenage girls might have found thrilling so perhaps off they went with a couple of guys. If there was a small crowd gathered out there then I thought perhaps when the girls weren't looking, Julie Ann could've been snatched. Then the girls would've wanted to hang around looking for her...okay, that theory is breaking down in my mind because the only way for them to get back to the mall & to report it to police is for them to go back with the guys who brought them there, and I truly think whoever they left with is who killed them all.

The other possible idea I had was that they were told there were going to be drag races out at GSW by someone they met at the mall, but in reality when they got there, there were no drag races, and that is possibly where they were killed. The drag races only being a trick to lure them away from the mall. An abandoned airport would provide a lot of ground for their killer or killers to operate undisturbed, especially one where there was no security personnel employed or if the killers happened to know how to get around the security guards.

Theories are good only so long as they are plausible, and the lure of drag races struck me as being plausible.

That old airport's lobby was a beautiful example of art deco architecture. I flew into GSW once because for some reason all the flights booked into Love Field were full, so GSW was the only choice available. I'd even forgotten about landing there because it had been so long ago. Vast difference in age here. I had a six month old on my lap for my flight.

[Balthazar]

Oh, now I understand what you're saying Justthinkin'. Well, I do think something like that could be a possibility. For example, one thing I thought was maybe someone approached them at the mall, claimed to be from a local TV or radio station and invited them to come to the station to do a special Christmas greeting for their family. I could see how a stranger could entice 3 young girls into leaving with him with a story like that. The drag races could be another similar possibility. Good thinking!

[Kaiser Sousa]

Do you think there is anyone who can tell me (via private message) what crowd or bars , clubs or hangouts Tommy and Rachel were frequenting then?
I knew and knew of alot of people back then and some were scumbags.

[deige]

For the record guys, six things

1. The letter arrived on the 24th of December 1974. I was there.
2. Rachel and Tommy did not frequent bars. My sister did not drink. She
was 17 a jr. at Southwest High. Her dream was to become a P.E.
teacher.
3. She did not run away. I would have known.
4. L.E. determined that the letter was mailed from the sub post office that
was located on the side of the mall that the theaters are. They figured it
was dropped it was dropped into the drop box. In 1974 we did not have
all the massive of the people living in Fort Worth that we do now. It
was very common to mail something within the city limits and have it
delivered the same day or the next. I know that for a fact.
5. Somethings I have been thinking about. Rachel and Tommy went to
Galvaston for their Honeymoon. So it is quite possible they went through
Houston. That would have been June 8, 1974. This was their wedding
day. I can tell you also they bought 2 baby raccoons, a male and a
female, named them Rocky and Roxanne.
6. Tommy was an only child. Adopted by an older couple. They both died
within 1 year of each other. Tommy was left their estate. The house, 2
cars, including the one Rachel was driving. He was also left a sizeable
trust fund which he could not access until he was 25. So none of his wives
could get anything.

These are all FACTS.. Thanks

[Kaiser Sousa]

Thanks Deige, I didnt think Rachel could get in a bar, Did you go to Southwest too? I did.

[txsvicki]

What a horrifying experience. Thank goodness you survived this. I would suggest asking Rusty through the trio website or asking Texas Sandman to ask Rusty.

BTW: You are not setup to receive private messages. I have a name I would like to run by you, but not on a public website. Perhaps you need to make more posts before you can receive private messages?


I've enabled PM's. Tks.

[Stella]

For the record guys, six things

1. The letter arrived on the 24th of December 1974. I was there.
2. Rachel and Tommy did not frequent bars. My sister did not drink. She
was 17 a jr. at Southwest High. Her dream was to become a P.E.
teacher.
3. She did not run away. I would have known.
4. L.E. determined that the letter was mailed from the sub post office that
was located on the side of the mall that the theaters are. They figured it
was dropped it was dropped into the drop box. In 1974 we did not have
all the massive of the people living in Fort Worth that we do now. It
was very common to mail something within the city limits and have it
delivered the same day or the next. I know that for a fact.
5. Somethings I have been thinking about. Rachel and Tommy went to
Galvaston for their Honeymoon. So it is quite possible they went through
Houston. That would have been June 8, 1974. This was their wedding
day. I can tell you also they bought 2 baby raccoons, a male and a
female, named them Rocky and Roxanne.
6. Tommy was an only child. Adopted by an older couple. They both died
within 1 year of each other. Tommy was left their estate. The house, 2
cars, including the one Rachel was driving. He was also left a sizeable
trust fund which he could not access until he was 25. So none of his wives
could get anything.

These are all FACTS.. Thanks
Wow! That's alot of info we didn't have before. Thanks Deige. Keep the info coming!

[justthinkin]

Thanks, Deige. It is great to get some of these questions we've had cleared up!

[Balthazar]

Deige: Thank you so much for clearing up these questions. This kind of information is very helpful in establishing what happened.

It is interesting that the police figured out that the letter was actually mailed from the sub post-office at the mall.

I want to think over all that that could mean if Rachel wrote it or if someone else wrote it. Deige, did the police ever tell you what time of day the mail was picked up there at the mall? I'm wondering if the letter was written and sent BEFORE Rachel, Renee and Julie left the mall or if it could have been written and sent AFTER Rachel left the mall - which means the unsub(s) took Rachel, Renee and Julie and then came back to the mall to drop off the letter.

So I think there are actually 4 ways to consider the letter:

1. Written while at the mall by Rachel.
Notes on this:
Rachel would know where she parked.
Why was it addressed to Thomas?
Why Houston?
Written under duress - but why would this not be seen by others at the mall? Could they have been taken to a backroom?
Crime of opportunity - no specifically aimed at these girls.


2. Written while at the mall by an unsub.
Notes on this:
Unsub may have encountered the trio in the parking lot and knew where they parked.
Unsub may have followed them into the mall and followed them around. May have known one or more of the girls and interfaced with them at the mall.
Premeditated crime.

3. Written away from the mall by Rachel and then taken back to the mall to mail by the unsub.
Notes:
Written under duress.
Rachel attempting to signal she was in trouble.
Mention of Houston may have been trying to tell Tommy something about who had her.
Premeditated by unsub and focused on Rachel.

4. Written away from the mall by an unsub and then taken back to the mall to mail by the unsub.
Notes:
Had to have asked Rachel where she parked or followed them to the car and taken them from there.
Used Rachel's driver's license plus a phone book to get Tommy's name and address
Mailed the letter from the mall to fake a runaway situation, get time to leave the area.
This scenario makes me wonder if the unsub was visiting family in FW at Christmas and did this crime, then went back to Houston and the mention of Houston in the note was the unsub's way of sticking it to the police.

Everyone, can you help me think out these scenarios more? Anyone with some different ideas about them?

[MissLori]

Hello, I am a longtime reader of these forum posts and I've always been very intrigued by this particular case as I am a native of the North Texas area. I wasn't born until 1979, so I don't remember when this actually happened but my parents sure do. My mom told me that right around that time period there were quite a few murders in the area involving young women. I've analyzed this case over and over and am just as puzzled by it as everyone else seems to be. Perhaps (as someone else here suggested) they were approached by someone who claimed to be from a tv station or a radio station and the girls trusted this person and went with him. Remember, back in those days people were ALOT more trustworthy of others unlike now where everyone is constantly on guard of anything suspicious. I pray for the sake of these girls' families that somebody comes forward and confesses something or that the girls bodies' are found (worse case scenario) so that all the pain and anguish will end once and for all.
BTW, when I was a teenager in the 1990s, I once had a man approach me at the mall and he asked if I could come with him because he was 'conducting an interview' and that he was 'with the local news'. I was by myself and I *knew* not to trust this person, but he was very clean cut and seemed very friendly. I had heard of guys trying this stunt with teenage girls at malls and knew NEVER to trust someone with a story like that. I got out of there FAST (and made sure security guards were close by). However, as I said before, back in 1974, people were probably alot more trustworthy and if someone cunning presented a scenario like that to the girls, it's very possible something like they could have gone with him (or them). Just something to consider.

[Kaiser Sousa]

Okay, heres a thought, there were basements at the Mall , on the South Side under the shoe store ,music storeand drug store was a large one, they had at times a radio station, large hair salon?(razors edge) ,large public restrooms , offices ,there were events held in there too. Also on the west side under a jeweler , clothes stores and part of Murphys. There were more offices and a bowling alley. Both basements had entrances in the inner mall area and a smaller one on the outer southern side. I dont know if there was a way to get from one basement to the other underground. In one of these was the security office, I believe it was the western side where the bowling alley was. For the most part these areas were deserted and there were predators in the restrooms sometimes(long story)..Back when we frequented the mall, I dont think there was more than two Mall security guards there at a time, and I believe sometimes only one. dont ask why I knew that.(continued)

[Kaiser Sousa]

Suppose one of the guards was a sicko, He accuses one of the girls of a false shoplifting crime. He takes them to the basement , which very well could have been deserted at the time except for the security office. I dont know when the bowling alley went out of business, but they could have been taken down there w/o drawing attention. Maybe he's working a long shift. Maybe theres a way to keep them locked up. He's surely got paper , envelopes and time to get the letter composed and mailed at the box in the mall. So he sneaks them out after dark? maybe after the cops leave if they came to the mall at all. He's at the opposite side of the mall he could have got them out in the middle of the night or even the next morning or who knows? Just a possibility

Or if theres two of them , maybe they were both in on it.

[justthinkin]

Kaiser, I was thinking this same thing today. I'm sure security had access to maintenance rooms, and even security may have had a storage room.

Ya gotta wonder if LE ever checked those things out. Surely they would have, but then again, I read somewhere, they didn't even check Rachel's car for fingerprints.

Outside of Rachel, Renee, and Julie Ann, Walker that same year, and Martin the year before, were there any other girls that went missing within this time frame? The next one I find on Doe Network is 1983, Kathy Mae Brownfield Goad.

[Kaiser Sousa]

sometime between 1979 and 1985 there was a number of rapes and murders in the TCU area that scared everyone , my wife even packed a gun for awhile, but these were not in anyway similar to the trio. I myself dont think Carla Walkers death could have been done by whoever snatched the trio.

[deige]

Kaiser
Yes I went to Southwest too. For almost 35 yrs I have thought of scenario after scenario, what ifs and hows but your idea about security and the basements really made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. It brings together other things that we've been told over the years, such as the girls were seen with a security guard in his truck. If it happened that way, maybe he was offering to take them to the car and never did. Your thoughts opened possibilities I hadn't considered before and believe me I thought I had thought about all possibilities. I totally forgot about the Razors Edge, the Radio Station and offices. How old are you Kaiser? I am 54. You must be older than I because I don't remember the bowling alley. Would like you know your name to see if I know you from Southwest.

[Balthazar]

Most mall security teams have a "holding room" or cell for shoplifters. I have wondered myself if the trio may have been held in that room if there was one at Seminary South. It would be helpful if we could find some former Seminary South employees from that time period to ask them about this and what they knew of the security guards. For one thing, I'm wondering if the mall hired some temporary security guards for the Christmas season due to the longer hours (plus the regular security guards wanting to take vacation time) and if they did, if this temporary employee may have been involved in the trio's disappearance.

I futher wonder if any of the security guards may have resigned shortly after the trio's disappearance, or only have been hired on to work through December 23 or 25th. I still believe the word Houston is very important in that letter. What it means is difficult to determine, but I believe it has some kind of meaning beyond what is written in that letter.

[justthinkin]

Deige, wish you would enable PMs.

I got to thinkin this morning that for whoever killed your sister, Renee and Julie Ann, this was not his first murder/s. It is so typically a serial killer's ploy to extract girls or children from malls, and there are scenarios where a stranger could abduct 3 girls. A mall security person is a strong possibility in my mind.

I really like Kaiser Sousa's idea of them being questioned for shop lifting, not that it was true, but that it was a good way to get the girls out of the public eye by taking them somewhere for questioning that would give the perp opportunity. He could have separated them in rooms if that's a possibility. I'm still struggling with it being a single perp though.

If we try to put ourselves into the mind of a killer back then, he would've known the police would initially do nothing, and decide the girls were runaways. Knowing that fact alone would buy him more time.

When did the police first truly begin their investigation after taking the report the girls were missing?

[Balthazar]

Can someone please tell us where the movie theater was in the mall and where the sub post office was? For example - southeast side or southwest corner or whatever. I vaguely remember these places were there but my memory is cloudy about where these places were.

[deige]

How Do I enable PMs

[deige]

The movie theaters were located on the outside of the building on the opposite side of where their car was found, if I am remembering correctly. Years later the movie theater was turned in a bingo hall. I think the sub post office was located in the parking lot. I'm not very good with directions like n,s,e,and w. but I think it was behind dillards somewhere. People could buy stamps and stuff and mail packages and letters. I don't recall if a live person actually worked inside it or not. I have been told through the years that there was extra security hired during that time. I have also learn there is a massive amount of tunnels under the mall. I do not know where there start or where they lead. We learned this from L.E. because knowing about the tunnels wasn't public knowlege.

[deige]

I've searched the internet to see if I can find out more information on the tunnels but I can't find anything. I tried to maybe find the blueprints for the mall in 1974. I keep coming up empty. Maybe someone could point me in the right direction.

[Balthazar]

Deige, I'm looking for the same thing. I've found a blog about the mall - didn't realize there was a radio station in the basement - something like that could easily be used to get the girls to go down there IMO:

http://www.topix.net/forum/city/fort-worth-tx/TP5P8OBRMOHGM0AJT

and an overview of the mall as La Gran Plaza - very different from when it was Seminary South:

http://www.boxerproperty.com/brochures/LGP.pdf

The North side of the mall is the side against E Seminary Drive or the direction you would drive to get to downtown Ft. Worth

South side of the mall faces I20/820

The west side of the mall is the direction you would take from the mall to get to Hulen St.

The East side of the mall is the South Freeway.

It helps to look at Google maps to figure this stuff out - just look up E Seminary Drive Ft. Worth, TX and zoom in.

I believe you could get a copy of the blueprints of the mall from the Ft. Worth Planning Commission office.

http://www.fortworthgov.org/PlanningandDevelopment/

This link contains an aerial view of La Gran Plaza, which may help to put it into perspective for you.

http://mallsofamerica.blogspot.com/2006/05/seminary-south-shopping-center.html

[deige]

Thank you Princess for the link. That really opened a lot of old memories.

[Balthazar]

How Do I enable PMs

1. Scroll to top of this screen, select User CP in the blue bar at the top
2. Scroll down to Settings and Options on the left side of the screen
3. Click on Edit Options
4. Now looking at the middle part of the screen under Receive Email, uncheck Receive email from other members and then scroll down to Private Messaging and check Enable Private Messaging
5. Finally scroll all the way to the bottom of the page and click on the button that says Save Changes.

Maybe you need to make more posts, if this stuff doesn't show up yet - you have to make a minimum number of posts to get to use this function, apparently.

Hope that helps!

[deige]

TY Princess. It says my private messaging is enabled. so I wonder why Kaiser can't PM me.

[Balthazar]

TY Princess. It says my private messaging is enabled. so I wonder why Kaiser can't PM me.

I just sent you a test PM to make sure it is working right. Check for it.

[deige]

got it Princess! Thank you. You are a wealth of information and so very helpful. I have figured out that if the internet were available when I was younger I probably would have never got my children raised. It is very easy to get lost. I don't spend a lot of time online, but I do check and read WBs everyday now. I don't always post but I do read. Kaisers security idea really made a lot of sense. Geeze I wish there were someway to figure everything out. BTW I have an absolutely beautiful grandaughter named Rachael. She was named in Rachels memory. She will be 4 tomorrow. It is amazing how much she looks like my sister.;)

[Balthazar]

Deige, - so sweet about your granddaughter, that is just beautiful. I know you sister would be so proud to have someone named after her!

I still hold out hope that somehow your sisters' case will be solved. It's just a question of finding the right person who knows something that can help - it may be something really innocuous that they don't even realize that they know or recognize as important. Or the people here on Websleuths might somehow make a connection between your sisters' case and other ones. We know so much more about criminals and how they work than we did in the 1970's. I want to believe there is an answer.

I wonder did the police even search the mall? I know family members staked out the car - did they stay overnight? I'm trying to understand...if the girls were taken by a security person downstairs, could they have been in there overnight and no one knew it? Or was there opportunity for them to be taken out during the night?

I am still mulling over the mention of Houston in the letter. I feel that is somehow important. If Rachel wrote it, she may have been trying to tell you all something. Did you all know anyone from Houston or with the first or last name Houston?

[deige]

I can't remember exactly, but there are a few connections to Houston that I can think of. I don't know how they can be related. As soon I post this I expect people will wonder. But trust me when I tell you that LE has turned it inside out. I would have to look at my Moms records. My father underwent Chemo Therapy for Malignant Melenoma cancer at MD Anderson Cancer hospital in Houston. My memory fails me as to exactly which year. It was 72, 73, or 74. I just know it was before Rachel got married. My mom and dad stayed in a Winnabago on the parking lot of the hospital. I think it was for about 6 wks. While visiting my parents there I met a guy named Sam at a disco. He was a DJ. We kept in touch after I came home. Remember the legal drinking age was 18 back then.
Everyone knows that the guy I was seeing in Dallas and I went our separate ways. Thats how I came to be staying with Rachel and Tommy. Anyway Sam called and wanted to come to spend Christmas with me. He worked at the Disco the night of the 23rd until 2 am and then drove straight here after. He arrived around 5:30 am the morning of the 24th. There was way to much going on for me to spend anytime with him so he turned around and went straight back to Houston. I had forgot he was coming till he got there. We didn't have pagers or cell phones then. I wish I could make a connection to it all. But have never been able to.

[justthinkin]

Isn't she? That Princess is a real Rose of a gal. I aspire to be as helpful and informative, but methinks it ain't gonna happen. I get too distracted.
Like today there was the Zodiac thread, and that led to the 1946 murders in Texarkana, that led to the fake Texas Chainsaw massacres that led to Ed Gein. Sheesh. All these creeps and I wind up giving myself a good scare.


Ah, Deige, how sweet and bittersweet about your granddaughter being named after her aunt, Rachel. :blowkiss:

[Balthazar]

I was thinking about the Security Guards' story of seeing the girls in another Security Guards' truck at 11:30pm. He said they were happy and laughing, but I wonder if they might have been drugged. What if he had held the girls all day in a room in the basement of the mall and somehow drugged them - maybe put something in drinks he gave them, all the while saying he was waiting until the police or their parents came and he was getting ready to take them away from the Mall when the other security guard saw him with the girls in the truck? The girls might have shown him their car at that time.

Debra, any idea at all what time the mail pickup was from the substation at the mall? I'm wondering how late he could have mailed that letter there for it to reach Tommy's house by the next day.

[justthinkin]

The only thing I was able to turn up online on the Seminary South Shopping Center was the name of the designer, Lawrence Halprin with Homart Development. Found that on a forum. Also found his name listed with a number of his projects, but Seminary South wasn't listed. rats!

[Kaiser Sousa]

Most all the larger stores had a lower floor or basement that was open to the public , so it makes sense that there was a whole lower floor underneath the entire mall whether the store had access to it or not. The security office was somewhere close to the bowling alley for sure , a security guard was taking a guy I knew in there to call the police on him. I cant remember what he did but they dissapeared thru the double doors that were west of Murphys. I heard a loud bump and there came Andy running 90 miles an hour right thru one of those flower displays he was out of the mall before the security guard even got to the door. Anytime I witnessed a disturbance only one security guard would show. Some of the stores like murphys for sure, had their own security.

[justthinkin]

Anyone remember who the DJ's were at that time or remember what the call letters of the radio station were or what type music they played?

[Kaiser Sousa]

The theater sat in the farthest Northwest corner, it was pretty far from the main buildings.

I cant remember the postal place , was it a small building in the parking lot if so what store was it closest too?

If there was no one in the postal center the letter would have gone to the felix street station or the berry street station for a postmark , what did their postmark number look like I wonder?

I want to know if the gift from Renee to Shawn was the only gift found in the car. I think deige said the Army-Navy laway purchase was not there but was probablly carried into the mall to find a matching top, is this correct

[Kaiser Sousa]

I believe FM had taken over by then, I know all the stations and lots of DJ's why do you ask? I think Kzew had started their reign by then.

[justthinkin]

Just curious because when I was a teen radio stations were places we thought were cool, and called when we were bored or visited. I just thought a radio station at a mall might have even more teens visiting, and maybe an older guy hanging around trying to pick up girls.

[Kaiser Sousa]

The radio station in the mall was not a popular one at all and was gone by then.

[justthinkin]

So it was nothing but a vacant room or rooms? Glass walls or enclosed space not viewable to those outside?

Of course what I'm getting at is this could have been were the girls were first taken possibly.

[Kaiser Sousa]

I really dont know what was open to the public during the period around the dissapearance, but even in the early days of the mall there were many offices and rooms where the public did not have access. I remember a large room that was opened up for a fashion show/concert that was called "the flower fair" in 1967 , i had never seen this part of the basement opened up before and I remember there were more rooms I saw on that side I didnt know existed. The Radio Station had only one room that you could see and it had a large window with the DJ and his control room. We would watch him sometimes, but I dont think he played records, could have been farm reports or something. The radio station was in the southernmost corner of the basement and there was a stairway that lead to a single door that led to the south parking lot and Seminary road.

[Balthazar]

Diege: In terms of Houston, think about:

1. People Rachel knew from school or church or anywhere else she went - like at work, if she had a job.
2. People Tommy knew that had some connection to Houston.

Also, it's very important to know, did Rachel normally sign cards and letters: Love Rachel - no comma? Did she usually put Love Rachel or something else? That would help us to determine if she actually wrote this note under duress or if someone else wrote it.

[Balthazar]

Last night, I started wondering - could Houston actually be Houston's Restaurant? Was there one in Ft. Worth that Rachel and Tommy might have gone to?

I also wondered if the police searched the entire Seminary South Mall on the 23rd - did they go into the basements and behind the scenes or did they do practically nothing?

[TexasSandman]

From my understanding, LE considered the girls runaways for several days after the disappearence and were basically ignoring the families concerns. So I would doubt that LE performed any sort of initial search of the Mall other than perhaps a basic walk-through to inquire if the girls had been seen.

[TallCoolOne]

From my understanding, LE considered the girls runaways for several days after the disappearence and were basically ignoring the families concerns. So I would doubt that LE performed any sort of initial search of the Mall other than perhaps a basic walk-through to inquire if the girls had been seen.
Too often that seems to be the case. Instead of erring on the side of caution and treating it as a crime and obtaining any evidence that might be available, they claim the individual(s) are a runaway and blow it off only to regret doing so later. How sad that they were just written off in the minds of LE in such a way. So much might have been gained if that were not the case.

[TexasSandman]

All the talk about the security offices sure has my head stuck on the Security Guard that claimed he saw the girls in another officer's truck. I know LE supposedly looked at the person in question, but did they look closely at the person that reported it after all this time? We all know that perps will sometimes try to align themselves with the investigation, provide false leads, or even prove to themselves how much smarter they are than LE. I am just still really disturbed by his comments that he never saw anything in the news and had assumed the girls had been found.

[Kaiser Sousa]

If I had more information or all the facts, I might have a different view, but I think the security guard scenario makes more sense than someone taking them against their will. If someone forced them to come with them I dont think the guy would have tried to do it in the mall and even the walk from the mall to the car in broad daylight doesnt seem like it would appeal to an abductor. Too much traffic during Xmas , that is if the parking lot was the one on the Seminary drive side.

If they were kept in the basement till late in the evening they might have left a clue in what ever room they were in.

[daisy.faithfull]

If I had more information or all the facts, I might have a different view, but I think the security guard scenario makes more sense than someone taking them against their will. If someone forced them to come with them I dont think the guy would have tried to do it in the mall and even the walk from the mall to the car in broad daylight doesnt seem like it would appeal to an abductor. Too much traffic during Xmas , that is if the parking lot was the one on the Seminary drive side.

If they were kept in the basement till late in the evening they might have left a clue in what ever room they were in.

I agree that the security guard scenario seems the most likely. It does seem strange though that a security guard would have them lock their packages in the car. I would think that the most likely guise they would use would be to tell the girls that they were suspected of shop lifting. If that is the case then why were the packages left in the car?

I wonder if the mall did background checks on their security guards.

It doesn't make sense to me that the police assumed that the girls had runaway when there were multiple witnesses that said that they saw something that indicated otherwise. :mad:

[Kaiser Sousa]

Okay, if Rachel took the jeans from Army-Navy inside the mall to match up with something else maybe some store thought she lifted them and called the rouge security guard, giving him the excuse of taking them to the basement.
I guess that would leave a pretty good witness in the store person that called the security guard though. Maybe Rachel was just walking thru the mall with no sack for the jeans and the guard stopped them. Crap, I wish I did have the police reports, to see who all they talked too.

[Kaiser Sousa]

Daisy , Diege says the only present found wrapped in the car was a gift Renee brought from home for Rachel's stepson.

[daisy.faithfull]

Okay, if Rachel took the jeans from Army-Navy inside the mall to match up with something else maybe some store thought she lifted them and called the rouge security guard, giving him the excuse of taking them to the basement.
I guess that would leave a pretty good witness in the store person that called the security guard though. Maybe Rachel was just walking thru the mall with no sack for the jeans and the guard stopped them. Crap, I wish I did have the police reports, to see who all they talked too.

Me too. The police did give the case file to the first PI, so it probably was destroyed. I wonder if the police ever gave the file to the second PI? Seems unlikely as I can't believe that they gave the file to the first PI, and for all we know they did not even give him the complete file. Does anyone know if that kind of thing was more common back then?

[daisy.faithfull]

Daisy , Diege says the only present found wrapped in the car was a gift Renee brought from home for Rachel's stepson.

Thanks! :) I read everything last night and have just gotten time to write... Do we have confirmation that the jeans that were not purchased at the mall were not in the car?

[daisy.faithfull]

Is it possible that the police were protecting one of their own that was moonlighting as a security guard?

[Kaiser Sousa]

It seems as though there are conflicting reports on all the facts that I knew from reading the news articles I've read thru the years and on the Trio sight. Daisy at this point I have no idea what was really in the car.

[Kaiser Sousa]

So far from what Deige has told us , Rachel was after a top to match the jeans she go out of layaway from the Army-Navy store, Renee was there because Rachel waned her company and Julie wanted to buy a present for her Grandpa. That doesnt sound like a whole lot of xmas presents. I always thought maybe they bought so much that they needed to store some in the car so they wouldnt have carry them while they finished shopping

[Kaiser Sousa]

Sorry my "t" isnt typing , I'm really not that illiterate.

[Balthazar]

Is it possible that the police were protecting one of their own that was moonlighting as a security guard?

That's a good question with very disturbing implications.

[Balthazar]

If I had more information or all the facts, I might have a different view, but I think the security guard scenario makes more sense than someone taking them against their will. If someone forced them to come with them I dont think the guy would have tried to do it in the mall and even the walk from the mall to the car in broad daylight doesnt seem like it would appeal to an abductor. Too much traffic during Xmas , that is if the parking lot was the one on the Seminary drive side.

If they were kept in the basement till late in the evening they might have left a clue in what ever room they were in.

I am wondering the exact same thing - and also wondering if perhaps they are still somewhere in that mall. Maybe the point of the letter was to send police looking everywhere but the mall. The thing is their bodies have never been found, but if there were abandoned or little used areas in the basement - could they have been concealed in some way - perhaps under a new cement floor or by construction going on down there? I remember the massive storage area at my high school had a dirt floor - could there have been an area like that at Seminary South? The thought is really very frightening. During Christmas an unsub could keep the girls in a secluded area and no one would hear anything when the mall was empty overnight and on Christmas day. I do wonder if 3 girls taken with 2 nights leading up to Christmas plus Christmas night was likely more than a coincidence in the mind of the unsub. Yet the buildings have been rennovated twice since 1974 - once to turn it into an enclosed mall and a second time to turn it into a lifestyle center and nothing was found. Just the same, I'm wondering if it would make sense for investigators to use ground penetrating radar on the basement floor of the mall.

[Balthazar]

If I had more information or all the facts, I might have a different view, but I think the security guard scenario makes more sense than someone taking them against their will. If someone forced them to come with them I dont think the guy would have tried to do it in the mall and even the walk from the mall to the car in broad daylight doesnt seem like it would appeal to an abductor. Too much traffic during Xmas , that is if the parking lot was the one on the Seminary drive side.

If they were kept in the basement till late in the evening they might have left a clue in what ever room they were in.

Of course, we don't know if the girls made it back to the car. It might have been that the unsub was waiting for the girls at the car and when they got in, he jumped in and carjacked them and later returned the car to the parking lot - which is why he knew where the car was parked for the letter. In other words, he may have seen the girls go into the store, parked nearby and waited, then started walking past their car as they got in and suddenly jumped in and carjacked them - passerby's might not notice that type of thing. If he had a gun, it would be easy to control the three girls.

[Kaiser Sousa]

I'll take a trip out there to see what access to the bowling area and also the other area where the radio station was, I 'm pretty sure that part of the mall is not enclosed , the only part that really looks different to me is the northeast corner

[Kaiser Sousa]

I'm not going at night though

[TexasSandman]

I also remember that the railroad tracks that ran along the west side of the Mall had a rather large system of drainage tunnels that ran for miles in several directions. I'm not sure how close they ran to the underground structures of the Mall but it would be interesting to know if they connected anywhere.

[TexasSandman]

Let me restate that...the railroad tracks didnt have the drainage tunnels, but there WAS an entrance to the system right at the tracks by the Mall (very close to the outward building that later became the movie theater). I know the tunnels ran all along Seminary and Hemphill though because my cousins and I used to play in them. I just cant recall if they went closer to the Mall than at the tracks. It sure seems like they did but I can't say for sure.

[Kaiser Sousa]

I'm not going at night though

[Kaiser Sousa]

Of course, we don't know if the girls made it back to the car. It might have been that the unsub was waiting for the girls at the car and when they got in, he jumped in and carjacked them and later returned the car to the parking lot - which is why he knew where the car was parked for the letter. In other words, he may have seen the girls go into the store, parked nearby and waited, then started walking past their car as they got in and suddenly jumped in and carjacked them - passerby's might not notice that type of thing. If he had a gun, it would be easy to control the three girls.


Thats possible , but if there in the parking lot by Sears in the south lot Seminary Drive is right there with very heavy traffic, and it has to be between 12 and 4 in broad daylight. Not saying it couldnt have happened that way though.

[Balthazar]

Diege, tonight I was watching a documentary about sexual slavery in America. Marc Klaass knows a lot about this. I am convinced that you need to get in contact with him, if you haven't been already. Houston is one of the major points of human trafficking, which I'm sure you already know. If you don't know how to reach Marc Klaass, I will help you arrange it and help you get his attention.

[daisy.faithfull]

I am wondering the exact same thing - and also wondering if perhaps they are still somewhere in that mall. Maybe the point of the letter was to send police looking everywhere but the mall. The thing is their bodies have never been found, but if there were abandoned or little used areas in the basement - could they have been concealed in some way - perhaps under a new cement floor or by construction going on down there? I remember the massive storage area at my high school had a dirt floor - could there have been an area like that at Seminary South? The thought is really very frightening. During Christmas an unsub could keep the girls in a secluded area and no one would hear anything when the mall was empty overnight and on Christmas day. I do wonder if 3 girls taken with 2 nights leading up to Christmas plus Christmas night was likely more than a coincidence in the mind of the unsub. Yet the buildings have been rennovated twice since 1974 - once to turn it into an enclosed mall and a second time to turn it into a lifestyle center and nothing was found. Just the same, I'm wondering if it would make sense for investigators to use ground penetrating radar on the basement floor of the mall.

Makes sense to me! :crazy:

I was also wonder it could have been another employee of the mall. In one of the articles I remember that one of the employees reported to the police that a shopper told them that they saw the girls "hustled" into a truck. LE never got to talk to this shopper because they left before LE could speak to them. Seems weird that a witness would do that in a case like this.

Maybe there was no shopper. Maybe the employee was trying to throw police in the wrong direction... An employee would have access to the basement floor of the mall. I know... this scenario is far-fetched, but I thought I'd throw it out there.:)

And I don't mean to implicate LE in this, it just seems to strange to me that they considered it a runaway when there was so much evidence that said otherwise. The car was left behind for goodness sake!

I also think that it is an excellent idea to contact Mark Klaas about the slavery angle. I can't imagine that LE even thought to examine that angle back then. Even now there is so little awareness of that issue.

[Balthazar]

I'll take a trip out there to see what access to the bowling area and also the other area where the radio station was, I 'm pretty sure that part of the mall is not enclosed , the only part that really looks different to me is the northeast corner

Just be super careful at that mall!

[Balthazar]

Diege, you told us that Renee's mom started calling to find her around 2pm. What time did the parents call the police regarding the girls?

[thefragile7393]

So for the above reasons, I feel certain that these girls were abducted by a stranger or someone they knew but should not have trusted.
I enjoyed your post, particularly the above portion. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Because of the letter, I've always thought it was someone they knew that wasn't trustworthy...a gut feeling if you will...but of course it could a stranger as well.

[TexasSandman]

Did we ever find out if Tommy was at work the day the girl's disappeared?

[thefragile7393]

I was thinking about the Security Guards' story of seeing the girls in another Security Guards' truck at 11:30pm. He said they were happy and laughing, but I wonder if they might have been drugged. What if he had held the girls all day in a room in the basement of the mall and somehow drugged them - maybe put something in drinks he gave them, all the while saying he was waiting until the police or their parents came and he was getting ready to take them away from the Mall when the other security guard saw him with the girls in the truck? The girls might have shown him their car at that time.

I was thinking more along the lines that A) they knew him (of course if this sighting is true) or B) he was a genial type, good at getting people to feel at ease, and since he's a security guard, there would be no reason to fear in their minds. He could have driven near their car, they could have pointed it out, then he could have made up an excuse to go back to the basement and they could have willingly followed for whatever reason. LIke maybe: "Here's the car." "Ok. Oh wait I forgot about XYZ, would you guys mind coming back with me while I do (or get) XYZ?" I dunno, it's just a thought.

[Kaiser Sousa]

Someone mentioned this before I think it was Princess, but the term "catch it" doesnt sound right did Deige ever answer that it was a term Rachel or their family used? Everyone I know would have said "get it" like "we are going to get it when Mom see's this mess". Also "Sears upper lot" doesnt sound like a term that a shopper would use. It sounds like a title given to the lot to distinguish between Sears other lots to be clear so the person they were talking to knew exactly where they meant, LIKE A SECURITY GUARD WHO IN THE NORMAL ROUTINE OF HIS JOB WOULD REFER TO THE DIFFERENT LOTS ALL DAY LONG. I still dont know what they meant by "Sears upper lot" it could mean one of three different lots.

[daisy.faithfull]

Someone mentioned this before I think it was Princess, but the term "catch it" doesnt sound right did Deige ever answer that it was a term Rachel or their family used? Everyone I know would have said "get it" like "we are going to get it when Mom see's this mess". Also "Sears upper lot" doesnt sound like a term that a shopper would use. It sounds like a title given to the lot to distinguish between Sears other lots to be clear so the person they were talking to knew exactly where they meant, LIKE A SECURITY GUARD WHO IN THE NORMAL ROUTINE OF HIS JOB WOULD REFER TO THE DIFFERENT LOTS ALL DAY LONG. I still dont know what they meant by "Sears upper lot" it could mean one of three different lots.

I totally agree with you! I can't imagine using a term like that, and I can't imagine a teenager using it either.

[Balthazar]

Someone mentioned this before I think it was Princess, but the term "catch it" doesnt sound right did Deige ever answer that it was a term Rachel or their family used? Everyone I know would have said "get it" like "we are going to get it when Mom see's this mess". Also "Sears upper lot" doesnt sound like a term that a shopper would use. It sounds like a title given to the lot to distinguish between Sears other lots to be clear so the person they were talking to knew exactly where they meant, LIKE A SECURITY GUARD WHO IN THE NORMAL ROUTINE OF HIS JOB WOULD REFER TO THE DIFFERENT LOTS ALL DAY LONG. I still dont know what they meant by "Sears upper lot" it could mean one of three different lots.

I am so glad you mentioned this. I thought the exact same thing last night about the term "Sears upper lot" and forgot all about it by this morning. It sounds exactly like someone, such as a security guard who is trained on the layout of the mall would talk because he would have to be able to communicate by radio to another security guard where he was if there was a problem and he needed police or help.

When I park at the mall I would describe it as : Outside Neiman Marcus, downstairs where the doors go into the men's department or Upstairs at Neiman Marcus where the lingerie and shoe department is. I would NEVER use a term like "upper lot" to describe where I parked at a mall.

[Balthazar]

I was thinking more along the lines that A) they knew him (of course if this sighting is true) or B) he was a genial type, good at getting people to feel at ease, and since he's a security guard, there would be no reason to fear in their minds. He could have driven near their car, they could have pointed it out, then he could have made up an excuse to go back to the basement and they could have willingly followed for whatever reason. LIke maybe: "Here's the car." "Ok. Oh wait I forgot about XYZ, would you guys mind coming back with me while I do (or get) XYZ?" I dunno, it's just a thought.

I believe the sighting was around 11:30 pm - after the mall had closed. That's why I was thinking he might have been taking them away from the mall at that time. Of course, you are right, he could have been friendly and they might have liked him - in the documentary I watched last night, many of the girls taken into sexual slavery in America were befriended by someone who got them to go somewhere with them, at which point they were kidnapped. Still, it is odd that they would be happy to be there that late at night.

[Balthazar]

Here's a scenario, based on everyone's input:

The security guard was driving around the mall. Secretly he was trawling for girls to give to someone and he sees the girls pull into the Sears Upper Lot. He parked his vehicle and followed them in the mall. At some point he apprehended one of the girls - perhaps Renee and accused her of shoplifting. Rachel and Julie go along with the security guard and Renee trying to clear things up. The security guard puts them in the holding room and asks for ID. Rachel gives him her Driver's License. He leaves them in the room and writes the note, looks up Rachel's husband's name in the phone book and mails it. After a time he comes back and says he can't get Renee's mom on the phone so they have to wait. In the meantime, he goes back on duty walking around the mall so no one notices his absence. He goes back and checks on them from time to time, repeating he hasn't been able to reach Renee's mom. He offers them drinks which he has drugged and a snack since it's been hours. Once the mall is closed, he is to lock up, so he goes down and gets the girls and tells them he will take them to their car and just forget the whole thing. He gets them in the security truck and starts to drive away with them. At this point, he inadvertently is seen with the girls by the other security guard. The girls are giggly from the drugs he has given them, so the other guard thinks everything is OK.

I guess, to me, the biggest hole in this story is how on earth would both security guards NOT know that 3 girls were missing from that mall that day? Surely Rachel, Renee or Julie's family told the mall security personnel that they were looking for the girls. But maybe this didn't happen or maybe they only told one mall security person - the one who had the girls, so he never spread the word?

I really wish we knew more about mall security personnel of the time such as how long they were employed at the mall and when they left their jobs there.

[daisy.faithfull]

Here's a scenario, based on everyone's input:

The security guard was driving around the mall. Secretly he was trawling for girls to give to someone and he sees the girls pull into the Sears Upper Lot. He parked his vehicle and followed them in the mall. At some point he apprehended one of the girls - perhaps Renee and accused her of shoplifting. Rachel and Julie go along with the security guard and Renee trying to clear things up. The security guard puts them in the holding room and asks for ID. Rachel gives him her Driver's License. He leaves them in the room and writes the note, looks up Rachel's husband's name in the phone book and mails it. After a time he comes back and says he can't get Renee's mom on the phone so they have to wait. In the meantime, he goes back on duty walking around the mall so no one notices his absence. He goes back and checks on them from time to time, repeating he hasn't been able to reach Renee's mom. He offers them drinks which he has drugged and a snack since it's been hours. Once the mall is closed, he is to lock up, so he goes down and gets the girls and tells them he will take them to their car and just forget the whole thing. He gets them in the security truck and starts to drive away with them. At this point, he inadvertently is seen with the girls by the other security guard. The girls are giggly from the drugs he has given them, so the other guard thinks everything is OK.

I guess, to me, the biggest hole in this story is how on earth would both security guards NOT know that 3 girls were missing from that mall that day? Surely Rachel, Renee or Julie's family told the mall security personnel that they were looking for the girls. But maybe this didn't happen or maybe they only told one mall security person - the one who had the girls, so he never spread the word?

I really wish we knew more about mall security personnel of the time such as how long they were employed at the mall and when they left their jobs there.

This is from the Missingtrio.com site:
As darkness settled over the city, she [Judy Wilson, Renee's mother] became frantic. She had the girls paged at all the stores in the shopping center. She called the hospitals and the police. Long before the shoppers went home, they found the car.


Great job with the scenario!

[justthinkin]

Guess we are all different because I would most likely refer to an upper level parking deck as the upper level parking, but also specifying in front of which store.

As for the phrase, "catch it," I never used it, but years ago I remember my mother saying, "you're going to catch he(( when I get hold of you."

I'm guessing "catch it" was a familial phrase that Rachel remembered from childhood. If not, then that raises the question where it came from or exactly who put that in the note.

I sure wish Ft. Worth LE would go through that basement with luminol. That could prove interesting. A security guard could have held them in a vacant room other than those regularly used by security so as not to draw suspicion from the other guard. Actually, all three girls could've been hit in the head to knock them out, and the security guard have tied them up and put tape over their mouths. No one would hear them at all in a shopping mall filled with people.

I don't feel strongly about human trafficking as a possibility, and from what little reading I've done on it, Rachel was too old, believe it or not, at age 17, and Renee borderline. Julie Ann however would've been the right age for being sold. I also gathered that it was mostly girls from outside the US brought in to the US to serve as slaves, at least during the time period we're talking about, rather than US girls being trafficked. Like I said though, I haven't read much about it being a problem back in 1974.

I'm not going to mention that security guard's name who volunteered info so many years later, but he was ex-LE, and that sends up a red flag to me, and just because he was pointing a finger at the other security guard doesn't mean he wasn't the true perp himself. I think he very well could've been. It'd been so many years, and if he was never questioned, then he'd know he was pretty safe in coming forward. In other words, if LE had anything they'd have questioned him way back when. And without the bodies, it would be hard to charge anyone with anything, and it's been so long, even if LE was sure who did it, convicting that person or persons would be next to impossible now.

[Balthazar]

It is startling to learn, but many victims of human trafficking in the US are US citizens - generally vunerable young women. There are plenty of other victims who are brought in from other countries, but it can and has happened to normal American teen girls.

This is a link to the story the documentary I watched on human trafficking is based on in which an American teen was kidnapped and drugged and forced into sexual slavery at age 17 :

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/12/eveningnews/main3254966.shtml

more facts:

http://www.rense.com/general85/slav.htm

http://nomoreslaveryct.com/2008/10/18/connecticut-man-sentenced-for-leading-human-trafficking-ring/

[justthinkin]

In 1974 the odds were against human trafficking being what happened to those girls, imo. I regularly watched the evening news, and I don't ever remember hearing any stories related to human trafficking in the USA back then or even 10 years later. I think that's just way out there as a theory as what happened to the 3 girls.

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/united_states_of_america
"The United States of America is principally a transit and destination country for trafficking in persons."

edited to add: I think the majority of girls who wind up as sexual slaves are runaways. They come into a city most likely by bus, and pimps hang out at bus stations, befriend the girls at first, and then turn them into prostitutes against their will. This is something that's gone on for a long time, and it is human trafficking, but in a slightly different sense to my way of thinking, and is really more localized.

[Balthazar]

Justthinkin: I agree, and yet, since the girls have never been found I do believe that it is something that should be considered, albeit a minor theory compared to the security guard theory.

[justthinkin]

Sadly, the USA is full of people who've never been found.

FYI, PrincessRose, Houston's Restaurant wasn't in existence until 1976. They're owned by The Hillstone Group out of LA.
Actually, I didn't even think they had been around that long. News to me.


I really wish we could get Ft. Worth LE to go over the out of the way places in the basement of Seminary South with Luminol. It could open up a whole new lead, and possibly a strong one at that, if they would only do so.

[daisy.faithfull]

It is startling to learn, but many victims of human trafficking in the US are US citizens - generally vunerable young women. There are plenty of other victims who are brought in from other countries, but it can and has happened to normal American teen girls.

This is a link to the story the documentary I watched on human trafficking is based on in which an American teen was kidnapped and drugged and forced into sexual slavery at age 17 :

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/12/eveningnews/main3254966.shtml

more facts:

http://www.rense.com/general85/slav.htm

http://nomoreslaveryct.com/2008/10/18/connecticut-man-sentenced-for-leading-human-trafficking-ring/

Thank you Princess Rose for posting these articles. The PI on Haleigh Cummings case mentioned this and I thought he was off his rocker. The more I read, the more I wonder why there isn't more awareness about this issue. It seems like LE and related professionals are aware, but not the general public.

I hope that deige contacts Mark K.

[deige]

PRINCESS i DON'T know WHO Mark K. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME. YOU GUYS WAY THINK i'V LOST MY MIND, BUT i HAVE BEEN CONDIDEREING FORMING A WEEKLY CLUB TO IT AND TOSS OVER ALL THESE WONDERFUL IDEAS. MYBE A LIBRARY OR BOOK STORE OR SOMETHING AND AS WE BECOME A CLOSER GROUP AnD LEARN TO TRUST EACH OTHER M0RE ,I MIGHT ME WILLING TO ME AT MY HOME OR YOURS,I THINK FACE TO FACE WOULD BE SO MUCH HELPFUL. LET ME KNOW BY pm'S.WE CAN BRING OUR LAPTOPS FOR OUR REACH SEARCH. i WILL BRING EVERYTHING i CAN FIND TO HELP IN OUR JOURNEY tHIS NOT A JOKE AND ONLY A HANDFUL WOULD BE INVITED,
tHIS IS A LITTLE SCAREY BUT i AM WILLING TO TAKE THAT CHANCE, kAIESER AND PRINCESS AND TXSANDMAM YOU ARE DEFEINITELLY ON THE LIST. AND DON'T THINIK i HAVE LEFT YOU OUT Justthinkin. YOU SEEM TO HAVE THE MOST IMPUT.WE COULD MAKE THIS OUR LITTLE STUDY GROUP.
LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.
WITH SINCEREST HEART
DEIGE
PlEASE PM ME YOUR INPUT
tHIS IS NOT A GAME

[Balthazar]

Diege,
Marc Klaas is the father of Polly Klaas. In 1993, 12 year old Polly was taken at knifepoint from her bedroom during a slumber party by a strange man who had snuck into her mother's house. This was witnessed by two other girls at the slumber party. She was found two months later strangled. Richard Allen Davis was later convicted of her murder and has been sentenced to death. Out of this tragedy, Marc Klaas became a child advocate and founder of KlaasKids Foundation and BeyondMissing, Inc. He makes himself available to families of kidnapped children and has appeared on many, many TV shows including Larry King Live, CNN Headline News and Nancy Grace as well as before the US Senate and various state legislatures to advocate for improved child safety laws. Many of the problems your family experienced with Law Enforcement efforts in the aftermath of your sisters' disappearance are things that Marc Klaas has worked to solve. He has also worked to stiffen prison sentences for those involved in crimes against children and is currently advocating against child sex trafficking in the United States. He would certainly be interested in your sisters' case and may be able to provide you with insight as to additional help available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polly_Klaas

http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-ourstory.htm

Contact information for Marc Klaas:

KlaasKids Foundation • P.O. Box 925, Sausalito, CA 94966
Tel: (415) 331-6867 • Fax: (415) 331-5633 • Email: klaaskids@pacbell.net (klaaskids@pacbell.net)

[Balthazar]

Thank you Princess Rose for posting these articles. The PI on Haleigh Cummings case mentioned this and I thought he was off his rocker. The more I read, the more I wonder why there isn't more awareness about this issue. It seems like LE and related professionals are aware, but not the general public.

I hope that deige contacts Mark K.

These articles are just horrifying aren't they? I had no idea the problem was so pervasive today. It appears that statistics on trafficking of US citizens have not been kept, although they find them here in the US once in a while when they break up human trafficking rings. It is interesting that Hillary Clinton has just released a report about Human Trafficking in the US this month.

http://hillary.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/06/16/hillary_clinton_releases_human_trafficking_report

[TexasSandman]

PRINCESS i DON'T know WHO Mark K. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME. YOU GUYS WAY THINK i'V LOST MY MIND, BUT i HAVE BEEN CONDIDEREING FORMING A WEEKLY CLUB TO IT AND TOSS OVER ALL THESE WONDERFUL IDEAS. MYBE A LIBRARY OR BOOK STORE OR SOMETHING AND AS WE BECOME A CLOSER GROUP AnD LEARN TO TRUST EACH OTHER M0RE ,I MIGHT ME WILLING TO ME AT MY HOME OR YOURS,I THINK FACE TO FACE WOULD BE SO MUCH HELPFUL. LET ME KNOW BY pm'S.WE CAN BRING OUR LAPTOPS FOR OUR REACH SEARCH. i WILL BRING EVERYTHING i CAN FIND TO HELP IN OUR JOURNEY tHIS NOT A JOKE AND ONLY A HANDFUL WOULD BE INVITED,
tHIS IS A LITTLE SCAREY BUT i AM WILLING TO TAKE THAT CHANCE, kAIESER AND PRINCESS AND TXSANDMAM YOU ARE DEFEINITELLY ON THE LIST. AND DON'T THINIK i HAVE LEFT YOU OUT Justthinkin. YOU SEEM TO HAVE THE MOST IMPUT.WE COULD MAKE THIS OUR LITTLE STUDY GROUP.
LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.
WITH SINCEREST HEART
DEIGE
PlEASE PM ME YOUR INPUT
tHIS IS NOT A GAME

Deige I think this is a great idea..unfortunately I live near Austin now so it would be impossible for me to make weekly meetings unless we also did an Instant Message or chatroom meeting. But I would love to be a part of it. I was also thinking about contacting the detective in charge and asking what info, if any, can be released for public consumption/dissection. If we can get that info, I will be happy to post it on a website so that we have everything available in one spot.

[Balthazar]

Deige I think this is a great idea..unfortunately I live near Austin now so it would be impossible for me to make weekly meetings unless we also did an Instant Message or chatroom meeting. But I would love to be a part of it. I was also thinking about contacting the detective in charge and asking what info, if any, can be released for public consumption/dissection. If we can get that info, I will be happy to post it on a website so that we have everything available in one spot.

That sounds like a good idea to me. It would really help to have whatever can be made public from the case file so we wouldn't have to overwhelm Debra with so many questions.

[justthinkin]

Sounds like a good idea to me too.

Here's a link to some statistics posted on Texas Equisearch's website that I thought were worth reading concerning this case and others.

http://texasequusearch.org/category/info/stats/

[daisy.faithfull]

These articles are just horrifying aren't they? I had no idea the problem was so pervasive today. It appears that statistics on trafficking of US citizens have not been kept, although they find them here in the US once in a while when they break up human trafficking rings. It is interesting that Hillary Clinton has just released a report about Human Trafficking in the US this month.

http://hillary.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/06/16/hillary_clinton_releases_human_trafficking_report

I do think that this is an avenue that needs to be explored in this case and sadly others as well.

I was thinking about it yesterday afternoon and I was wondering if the situation is similiar to to the child and other illegal pornography rings. At the beginning of the Sandra Cantu search police in the area busted a child pornography ring in the area. It was brought up that the number of these rings are astounding, LE knows it and for whatever reason does nothing about it. I feel the same may be true with human trafficking.

After reading what Hillary is up to I went to see what other types of books out there on the subject besides the one that was mentioned. There actually are quite a few. I wonder if they may give some insight into how/ what LE agencies to contact to have this investigated.

TexasSandman, you mentioned calling LE, I can't do that because I live here in AZ but I would be interesting in knowing if they have a sex crimes unit that could investigate the case, if appropriate. Its possible that they did not have that kind of unit when Rachel, Renee and Julie went missing. I'll see what I can find on the internet, and do some emailing, but if you are going to call that may get an answer before I could.:rolleyes:

[TexasSandman]

I've been informed that the lead investigator recently had a heart attack. I am trying to find out if he is back to work, or when he is expected to do so.

[deige]

Texas Sandman,
Yes the detective did have a heart attack and then a triple by-pass. From what I understand he is recovering and back at work. When you think you may be coming to Fort Worth let me know. Maybe we can have lunch or something.

[gaia227]

These articles are just horrifying aren't they? I had no idea the problem was so pervasive today. It appears that statistics on trafficking of US citizens have not been kept, although they find them here in the US once in a while when they break up human trafficking rings. It is interesting that Hillary Clinton has just released a report about Human Trafficking in the US this month.

http://hillary.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/06/16/hillary_clinton_releases_human_trafficking_report


Human traffiking is a big problem and part of the problem is the fact that it does not get much attention and a lot of people just refuse to believe it is happening - especially in the U.S.

Woman who are trafficked from overseas tend to get roped by responding to a job placement advertisement usually advertising for housecleaning, nannies, etc in the states and once they arrive at the airport they are taken and held against their will.

A lot of normal American teenage girls get caught up in the web of sex slavery. Sadly many of these crimes go unpunished.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22083762/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/23/48hours/main675913.shtml

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/sex_traff_us.pdf

http://www.womensfundingnetwork.org/resource/past-articles/enslaved-in-america-sex-trafficking-in-the-united-states

http://www.beverlylahayeinstitute.org/articledisplay.asp?id=7014&department=bli&categoryid=reports

[Balthazar]

gaia227: Thanks for this information. It looks to me like very little research was done on human trafficking in the 1970's and the police in Ft. Worth may not have even been aware that this could be the problem. I saw a chart on a documentary about human trafficking that showed a circuit around which women taken for sexual slavery are moved in the US. You wouldn't happen to have seen that chart or know where it is on the internet, would you?

It seems to me, three girls taken just before Christmas could have been as a "gift" for someone.

[justthinkin]

I don't find human trafficking hard to believe at all. I just find it hard to believe concerning this case in 1974. Sadly, our country is on a downward spiral. The kind of people involved in human trafficking are a different breed from the pedophile who molests the children in the neighborhood or step children. This is much worse because money has entered into the equation, and that alone places more children at greater risk. This is really quite tragic.

[justthinkin]

Some of you have a much closer eye on this case than I do since you're aware of what's going on with the detective's health.

PrincessRose has been pming me, and I now understand what the parking lot looks like. She was saying that in her opinion calling the hillside parking the upper lot was language that seemed particular to security or mall management personnel, if I got that right. : ) I think she may well be right on that. After understanding the parking layout, it seems to me most people would say they parked on the hill by Sears or on the hillside outside of Sears or by the 2nd. floor entrance of Sears.

With what PrincessRose said, I feel even more strongly about LE testing parts of the basement with luminol. I wonder if we can put forth a group effort to get them to do that when the main detective feels better. Maybe all send letters on the same day to the detective's attention. What do you think?

[daisy.faithfull]

Some of you have a much closer eye on this case than I do since you're aware of what's going on with the detective's health.

PrincessRose has been pming me, and I now understand what the parking lot looks like. She was saying that in her opinion calling the hillside parking the upper lot was language that seemed particular to security or mall management personnel, if I got that right. : ) I think she may well be right on that. After understanding the parking layout, it seems to me most people would say they parked on the hill by Sears or on the hillside outside of Sears or by the 2nd. floor entrance of Sears.

With what PrincessRose said, I feel even more strongly about LE testing parts of the basement with luminol. I wonder if we can put forth a group effort to get them to do that when the main detective feels better. Maybe all send letters on the same day to the detective's attention. What do you think?

I've written more letters to people that I never thought I would in the short time that I've been here at WS. :) I know that I am new to the thread, but I really would like to help.

Thanks, daisy.faithfull

[Balthazar]

Unfortunately, although I think we have an interesting theory, I doubt that the police would be willing to test the basement with luminol when we have no proof of anything or even a very specific area to look at. The basement could be huge and it sounds like there are many rooms. It might help if we could narrow down where they might have been kept. I also wish we knew who the suspects are as that might provide additional insight to what may have happened to the trio.

[justthinkin]

I thought perhaps LE could take a look around the basement, and choose the places they thought were the most apt to maybe have some blood evidence. if any exists. I don't know enough about luminol to know if it would work this many years after the disappearance.

If you're in Ft. Worth, start asking people who used to shop at Seminary South what wording they would have used to describe where they left their car if they parked out front of the 2nd. floor at Sears. See how many would refer to it as the upper lot without you bringing up that wording. That could give us more of an idea if we should pursue LE looking into this. Did they even have luminol available back in 1974?

I still say you're onto something here, PrincessRose with the language, upper deck.

[deige]

justthinkin,
it was upper lot not upper deck.

[deige]

by the way, in response to everyone question about the phrase used in the letter " I know I'm going to catch it" was a phrase we used as children. Our parents were raised in east Texas, Marshall to be exact. Their dialect was a little different than in North Texas. But that does not mean she wrote the letter only that I remember using the phrase and also telling my sons they were going to catch it if they didn't straighten up. I hope this is helpful to you. Have a blessed day.

[Balthazar]

Luminol can work even in a situation that is more than 100 years past the time blood was present. For example, it has been used in the Lizzie Borden house not too many years ago to examine the basement area for blood. It can work in a situation where the room has been repainted or refloored. The main issue would be if someone cleaned the crimescene with bleach. In that case, the whole room would glow as though it was covered with blood - however, it is easy for an investigator to distinguish between blood and bleach due to the characteristics of the two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminol

http://science.howstuffworks.com/luminol.htm

[Balthazar]

Deige, I would like to know about Rachel's relationship to Tommy's ex-wife and her family. Were these nice people? Was Tommy's ex nice to Rachel? Had she remarried? Did the police investigate them?

[deige]

Princess Rose that would be a good question to ask kaiser sousa about Tommys ex and her family. I never met them. I'm pretty sure Rachel had little contact with Shawna other than to maybe pick up Shawn.

[tatertot]

Debra, do you know whether Rachel updated her driver's license after she got married and moved into the house with Tommy? She was married only a few months before disappearing.

If she was still carrying a license with her maiden name and address, that would indicate the abductor either knew her personally or talked to her long enough to get the new information if he knew to send a letter to Tommy and not to the Arnolds. Unless of course she had other documents like a school I.D. in her purse that might have had the new address and name...

[Balthazar]

Princess Rose that would be a good question to ask kaiser sousa about Tommys ex and her family. I never met them. I'm pretty sure Rachel had little contact with Shawna other than to maybe pick up Shawn.

That's a very interesting piece of information, Diege. I was thinking about a different scenario - one in which the ex felt betrayed by Tommy and wanted to get even. She knew about you dating him and she knew what Rachel looked like from when she dropped off or picked up her son for Tommy's visitation. It looks to me like you were dating Tommy as he finalized his divorce and then he took up with Rachel. What if Tommy's ex orchestrated this because she wanted to hurt Tommy? What if they mistook Renee for you, having never met you, and took all 3 girls to get even with Tommy?

I'm wondering if your sister was approached by Tommy's ex and she asked her to come see her son, if the three girls would willingly go with her?

Which leads to the question of the gift in your sister's car for Tommy's son - did Renee's mother know Renee had bought that gift for him for certain? If not, that could indicate that gift was put in the car to cast suspicion away from the guilty party.

[VespaElf]

Ive finally been able to catch up on this thread-WOW!Great work guys-has anyone heard from the Detective currently handling the case?I know it was said he had a heart attack then a bypass but was back at work?

[deige]

:bang:

[Kaiser Sousa]

I was thinking about a different scenario - one in which the ex felt betrayed by Tommy and wanted to get even.




I really dont think so , dont really want to say why on site

[Kaiser Sousa]

Well its starting to sound like Rachel might have written the letter if "catch it" was a commonly used phrase as Diege says. Diege I know this is heartbreaking for you to revisit all this here but we want to help. If your anything like me, you aint getting any younger. Somebody has to no something , we have to get closure for all. How certain is everyone that Rachel didnt write the letter? would you say 50/50 chance or what?

[Balthazar]

I was thinking about a different scenario - one in which the ex felt betrayed by Tommy and wanted to get even.




I really dont think so , dont really want to say why on site

You can PM me, if you want with this info. I will not publicly reveal anything on the website that you want to keep private.

The astrologist who is working with us also does not see anything on the charts indicating that Tommy's ex was involved. I just want to rule out every "known" person.

[Kaiser Sousa]

is there spell check on this site? I know "know" is not spelled "no"

[Balthazar]

It is not unusual to invite the detective involved in a Cold Case to Websleuths and they will often come on here and post. Websleuths has a pretty good reputation with law enforcement for solving cold cases. I think it might be helpful to get the public case file first, however, so that we can ask educated questions. Right now I think we are still dealing with a lot of supposition.

[Balthazar]

is there spell check on this site? I know "know" is not spelled "no"

Sadly, no. One way to get around it is to type in Word, spellcheck there then copy paste here. It's klugy, but effective. At any rate, no one here cares about spelling mistakes!

[Balthazar]

There is another member who is an astrologist (and a really good one) who has been helping us. In general her charts show this was a stranger abductions, that the girls could have been taken from a restroom and also show that Rachel's wedding rings are with the unsub and this evidence may someday be his undoing.

This makes me wonder where the restrooms were at Seminary South - does anyone remember? With the Christmas rush, I would imagine the ones in the department stores would have a long line for the ladies room. So is it possible that the girls went down to the basement to use a restroom that was less known - perhaps one near the former bowling alley?

Diege, do you remember anything about the restrooms at the mall? Was there one in the basement you all knew about?

[Kaiser Sousa]

there were some large ones upstairs at sears that the stalls were pay toilets in 1973, there were restrooms in the Restaurants, El Chicos, Wyatts, and Bobs(if it was still there) and the largest and free was in the basement on the south side where Razors Edge and the Radio Station were. There were not many public restrooms in most of the stores. And of course the bowling alley had restrooms, but now that i think of it they wouldnt have gone to the bowling alley then to use them, because if it was open they wouldnt like it down there and I think it was closed by then. I wish there were some public records on what was open and when.

[Kaiser Sousa]

Is there something distinct about the ring that would make it easy to identify?

[justthinkin]

There is another member who is an astrologist (and a really good one) who has been helping us. In general her charts show this was a stranger abductions, that the girls could have been taken from a restroom and also show that Rachel's wedding rings are with the unsub and this evidence may someday be his undoing.

This makes me wonder where the restrooms were at Seminary South - does anyone remember? With the Christmas rush, I would imagine the ones in the department stores would have a long line for the ladies room. So is it possible that the girls went down to the basement to use a restroom that was less known - perhaps one near the former bowling alley?

Diege, do you remember anything about the restrooms at the mall? Was there one in the basement you all knew about?

Maybe they were held in the restroom in the bowling alley by a security person if, and that's if the bowling alley had been shut down. Otherwise, I can't see three girls being taken from any restroom during heavy Christmas shopping. Some other time of the year possibily, but not during the last days before Christmas. It would've been too great a risk for the perp/s.

[Kaiser Sousa]

I still say they were tricked or trusted their abductor, i dont believe it could have been a forced abduction inside the mall or in the parking lot in broad daylight

[justthinkin]

I found this:

DAVID WAYNE McCALL, suspect
Dallas, Texas
Irving man suspect in Indiana killing -- (Dallas News)
An Irving man suspected but not charged in the slayings of a half-dozen Dallas-area women has been a murder suspect in his native Indiana for two decades, police there say. Woman's 1978 murder unsolved; he denies part in any slayings.


I can't find any more information about this guy online. Maybe whoever is in Dallas can check the archives there.

Deige, it would be worth checking with Ft. Worth LE to see if they think this guy was a possibility or if they ever considered him.

[txsvicki]

I still say they were tricked or trusted their abductor, i dont believe it could have been a forced abduction inside the mall or in the parking lot in broad daylight


I would think they may have been tricked even if for an istant. A phony floor walker accusing them of shoplifting in the parking lot or a van parked near to theirs. The only thing about a vehicle purposely parking near is it was the Christmas holidays and parking spots might have been hard to find near a particular spot. I saw the tv show the other night about Ted Bundy and how he used ruses with the arm casts back during that time and wonder if it could have been something similar. How anyone could get 3 scared girls under control is beyond me though. Does anyone think the car could have left the mall with the girls then been taken back there? The thing with the gas station owner still bothers me since someone did report the sighting.

[justthinkin]

Respectfully snipped

txsvicki :Does anyone think the car could have left the mall with the girls then been taken back there? The thing with the gas station owner still bothers me since someone did report the sighting.

txsvicki, that's certainly a possibility, but I don't see how it would tie in with the sighting the next day.

[Balthazar]

Here is the story of David Wayne McCall. He's obviously a serial killer, but it appears that he was most likely too young to be involved in the trio case. He was 35 in 1995, which would make him 14 in 1974 and living in Indiana. He apparently committed his first murder at age 15 there. Most of his crimes in the DFW area were in the 1990's.

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/M/McCALL_david_wayne.php

[Balthazar]

McCall files an false arrest claim in 2004 from Texas prison - finding for the defendants (arresting detectives) - they did have probable cause for the arrest.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:aps1jEsobV0J:ftp://opinions.ca5.uscourts.gov/unpub/03/03-10550.0.wpd.pdf+texas+prisoner+David+Wayne+McCall&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Balthazar]

there were some large ones upstairs at sears that the stalls were pay toilets in 1973, there were restrooms in the Restaurants, El Chicos, Wyatts, and Bobs(if it was still there) and the largest and free was in the basement on the south side where Razors Edge and the Radio Station were. There were not many public restrooms in most of the stores. And of course the bowling alley had restrooms, but now that i think of it they wouldnt have gone to the bowling alley then to use them, because if it was open they wouldnt like it down there and I think it was closed by then. I wish there were some public records on what was open and when.

What do you mean they wouldn't like it down in the bowling alley if it was open? Was this an area known for criminal activity or was it taken over by teen boys or what?

[Kaiser Sousa]

Sent you a PM explaining why

[Balthazar]

Sent you a PM explaining why

Yes, I got it. I was thinking about the pay toilets. I remember as a teen, I was super frugal - I wouldn't have paid to use the bathroom if I could avoid it - although I seem to remember that in a pay toilet bathroom there was usually at least one stall that was not a pay toilet.

[Kaiser Sousa]

yes there was always one free , plus if you were fearless you could crawl under the door

[justthinkin]

Sent you a PM explaining why

Darn, I also want to know why they wouldn't like it down there.

[Balthazar]

It was a hangout for a group of people they might not feel comfortable around.

[Jdee]

I grew up in Richland Hills and my friends and I used to go to Seminary South to shop back in the mid 70's.
In 74 I was 13 or 14 and I recall one time being at the mall with a friend and she and I were followed by a Hispanic guy.
The basements and tunnels under the mall were mentioned here ealier and I have been down in the lower part of the mall on the day my friend and I were followed.
We happened upon a sign in the mall advertising a childrens beauty pagent so we called my friend's Mother and asked her if we could stay that night and go to the pagent. I remember that we had to go down a flight of long steps to buy our tickets or get information for the pagent and the guy that had been following us on and off all day followed us half way down the stairs then waited on the steps for when we came back up. As we came back up I had to pass him on my side and he reached out and strocked my arm. I don't recall now what or if he said anything...
We did go back to the pagent later that night and it was down the same steps. There was a theater of sorts down there with a stage like in a school. This was not a shopping part of the mall so if you didn't know it was there you would walk right past it.
So there were areas of the mall you could go that were beyond just shopping at that time and there were unsavory charcters lurking around even back then.
At one time I wrote the brother from his missingtrio website and passed on my information of the mall and the guy that followed us around but he never replied.
Maybe none of its nothing but I think every scrap of info is something.

[Balthazar]

Jdee: Thanks for posting your story. That is very interesting. Some similar type things happened to me when I lived in Ft. Worth and was a young teen. It does make me wonder if whatever happened occurred down in the bathrooms near the bowling alley or somewhere in the basement.

[Jdee]

Hey Princess Rose... My gut feeling on this has always been that this was a stranger abduction. The wierd post card does throw a wrench in it but I still go on my gut feeling.
I don't recall Seminary South being a bad place to hang out back then at all or otherwise I am sure our parents wouldn't have allowed us there...
Everything inside me says these girls didn't run away. They were thinking about Christmas and gifts, new jeans, a promise ring, and a Christmas party.
If something accidental happened to the 9 year old and they blamed themselves... I feel strongly even in panic mode they would have not run away...
Nor would they have left their car.

[justthinkin]

Hi JDee, thanks for joining us. Our ranks seem to have suddenly thinned out. I agree with everything you just said.

I was reading something just last night about serial killers, and how they graduate to killing strangers. Malls are very attractive to serial killers, and it would be a mall and area the person is familiar with because they need to do their deed then dispose of the bodies so they need to feel at ease, know the streets, and how to get around easily. The capture scenarios are rehearsed in their minds and checked out before hand. Obviously LE thinks the girls went with someone they knew, but if they ran into a Bundy type, he could charm them away from the mall. So maybe we should consider a predator with a high IQ, and one who is also socially capable. Problem is I can't think of any serial activity at the time in either Ft. Worth or Dallas. I looked for Dallas girls murdered about the same time, but didn't come across anything that seemed significant.

If I'm not mistaken, there was a serial killer suspected of killing two girls in Maryland, Sheila and Katherine Lyons, and he had a Texas connection. What I'm not sure of is if he was on the loose when the girls here disappeared. The guy was enrolled in Paschal High School at one time, maybe 20 years before the disappearances.

He has been executed for another murder so he won't be spilling any beans about these 5 missing girls. I'm glad he's dead, but I think they should keep these jerks alive long enough to torture them into admitting their other crimes, and without LE giving them information about cases. These creeps should just have to start talking. Sure some kill more than others, but there's got to be a basic pattern or number of kills based on the killer's age.

[Balthazar]

JustThinkin: You're talking about Mike DeBardeleben. Here's his timeline from the Lyon thread:

"Mike DeBardeleben's life in a timeline.

Most significantly - not in jail nor accounted for in March of 1975.
Also please note that he has one daughter about the same age as Sheila and has another child (boy or girl?) in which he "forced" his wife to give up for adoption that would have been roughly the same age as Kate.

Was known to be an anniversary perpetrator - that is committed heinous crimes right around April of each year he was not incarcerated. Actually it appears he committed two separate crimes each spring. This Lyon sisters would then fit in as the first and a pistol whipping of a woman would be a second in March - April - May 1975.

Convicted car thief - police impersonator to lure women into the most sadistic of crimes - was known as the Mall Passer for his counterfeiting behavior which included passing fake 20's at malls - tape recorded his victims - was often in VA and Maryland and DC area.


03/20/1940 0 Born in Little Rock, Arkansas
1945 5 Moved to Austin, Texas. Father shipped to South Pacific for 9 months
1949 9 Family moved from Kentucky to Frankfurt, Germany
1950 10 Family moved again
1956 16 Physically assaulted his mother
09/08/1956 16 Purchased two handguns and ammo with a friend
09/21/1956 16 First arrest; felony arrest for concealed weapon. Soon after first arrest, arrested several
times on charges from theft, sodomy, attempted murder, and kidnapping
05/13/1957 17 Reckless driving offense
Spring
1957 17 Expelled from Peter Schuyler High School
06/26/1957 17 Joined the air force. Shipped to Lackland Air Force Base in Texas
03/1958 18 Court-martialed for variety of offenses: wearing “Improper Insignia and Improper
Uniform” and disorderly behavior. Sentenced to 2 months in Stockade and $155 in pay
forfeited
06/1958 18 Cited for “Unauthorized Absence from Bed Check,” “Breaking Restrictions” twice,
and “Disrespectful to Superiors.” Ordered to visit air force psychiatrist
08/1958 18 Discharged from air force “Under Other Than Honorable Conditions,” and moved to
Fort Worth, Texas with family
01/1959 18 Enrolled at R.L. Paschal High School
03/1959 18/19 Expelled from high school
08/1959 19 Married Linda Weir
08/1959 19 3 weeks later, separated from Linda Weir.
10/5/1959 19 Attempted robbery with accomplice
10/1959 19 2 weeks later, arrested for string of auto thefts. Sentenced to 5 years probation
11/1959 19 Premature daughter stillborn
12/1959 19 Meets Charlotte Weber, 17
03/1960 19/20 Charlotte gets pregnant
06/09/1960 20 Marries Charlotte
12/12/1960 20 Daughter Bethene born
No date 20/21 Charlotte becomes pregnant, forced to give baby up for adoption
08/1961 21 Younger brother, Ralph commits suicide
09/1961 21 Divorced
Summer
1961 21 Enrolls at Texas Christian University without HS diploma and then at North Texas
State University
09/1962 22 Probation for auto theft revoked and sent to Texas State Prison at Huntsville
05/1963 23 Released from prison and lives with parents
03/1964 24 Father files complaint on Mike and is sent to Western State Hospital in Staunton, VA
05/16/1964 24 Comes back home
09/1964 24 Marries Wanda Faye Davis
1965 25 Wanda begins to accompany Mike in criminal acts
1966 26 Charged with assault, sodomy, kidnapping of young girl, but later charges are dropped
04/25/1969 29 Faye is accomplice in kidnap-extortion
No date 29 Faye becomes pregnant, but miscarries when Mike pushes her down the stairs
Aug/1969 29 Faye becomes pregnant, divorce
01/02/1970 29 Daughter, Lindsey born
07/10/1970 30 Marries Caryn, 18
No date N/A Returns to college at George Mason University
04/1971 31 Murders realtor, Terry McDonald
1975 35 Pistol-whips Phillipa Voliner
1976 36 Divorced
1976 36 Caught for counterfeiting for first time
1978 38 Crime Information Center believes Mike is dead
05/05/1978 38 Released to a D.C. halfway house after serving 23 months of his 1976 counterfeiting
sentence in the Federal Penitentiary in Danbury, Connecticut
06/1978 38 Moved to Arlington, VA, took barbering job
07/1978 38 Bought ’77 Thunderbird, which is believed to have been used in the abduction of
nursing student, Lucy Alexander, 19
09/04/1978 38 Posed as a cop to abduct Lucy Alexander. He also raped, sodomized, and forced her to
fallate him repeatedly. She was forced to call him “Daddy” Raped at least 4 times,
performed fallatio 4-5 times over 18 hours
09/05/1978 38 Released Lucy into isolated area known as Hardscrabble, east of Georgetown,
Delaware
02/04/1979 38 Fayetteville, N.C. introduced self as “Al Wise” to Elizabeth Mason, 31 and pretended
to be interested in buying a house. Attacked and assaulted her with an automatic
handgun, tied and gagged, and strangled until unconscious, then stole her car"


It looks to me like his parents lived in Ft. Worth. I found a book about him called Beyond Cruel and the police admit that they really have no idea how many murders this man committed and in addition, he seemed to have a wide variety of criminal talents having been involved in theft, forgery, murder, sex crimes, bank robbing and numerous other crimes. He was indicted 11 times and convicted six times. There seems to be a gap in the timeline in the early 1970's but in reading parts of the book Beyond Cruel, I see that he was victimizing elderly women in the Dallas Ft. Worth area at that time and his wife Caryn reported that there was a woman kept in the attic of their home on Spurgeon Street and police did find evidence of this later. Who knows what else he may have been doing that she was too afraid to report because he forced her to commit crimes with him, often being the first point of contact for the victims. In 1976 he went to prison for conterfeiting and got out in 1978 where he promptly went out and kidnapped a 19 year old by falsly claiming to be an FBI agent. He does seem to be a strong potential for the unsub in this case!

So, I looked up Spurgeon Street and it's not really very far from Seminary South Mall - you could get there easily by taking 820.

[justthinkin]

This creep obviously had no problem socially at least in meeting girls and marrying them. He was likely a charmer, telling teen girls the things they wanted to hear.

My current thoughts are this guy is good for the the three girls murders. The fact that some of his other victims have never been found echoes back to our girls in Ft. Worth, who also have never been found. The Lyons girls' disappearance was also associated with a mall.

Obviously Ft. Worth LE has never even had this guy on their radar for these murders. I'll cut 'em some slack because we didn't have profilers back in 1974, and police weren't as sophisticated on criminals nor were departments sharing information back then. It's a natural assumption given when they disappeared to think that they had to have left the mall with someone they knew. I wonder if one of the 2 older girls knew this guy even casually or knew his wife.

He was charged with attempted murder at age 16 so this guy was bad news from an early age. The other thing is he could have had help from his then current wife. I wonder if it was one of the Ft. Worth girls held in his attic or all three. I doubt the wife who helped him in other crimes, in fear for her own life, would admit to knowing that.

[justthinkin]

I just got through reading again, the story of Debardeleben at:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/debardeleben/service_2.html

I hope it's okay to quote one sentence so long as I reference where it came from.

"In this case, they caught him and then had to go back and find the cases."

This tells me this criminal covered his tracks well.

In the article, they describe Debardeleben as a freak, and certainly he was, but I can't help but think that briefly this guy charmed the girls he married. One marriage only lasted 3 weeks, so Linda Weir quickly knew she'd made a mistake & got the H out. I figure him for a Jekyl & Hyde type with little control as to when Hyde comes out.

I wonder if Ft. Worth LE ever looked at the collection of pictures that Debardeleban had to see if Rachel, Renee, and Julie Ann were among them.

If they haven't, then they need to do this. There are 3 years unaccounted for in the M. D. timeline--that doesn't mean he'd suddenly become a model citizen during that period! I hope with all my might, that these 3 girls didn't die at the hands of Debardeleben.

[Balthazar]

I believe that Debardeleben is the most likely suspect in this crime. I looked at his former house - it is a short drive to this house taking East Seminary St. and then Grandbury Rd from the Seminary South mall. This Debardeleben was known to dress up as a police officer. It makes me wonder if the former Seminary South Mall security guard's story of seeing the girls at 11 or 11:30pm in another security guard's truck was true. The other security guard said that he never had the girls in his truck when he was questioned. But what if the security guard who reported this sighting was telling the truth, but mistook Debardeleben for the other real security guard because he had his vehicle tricked out to look like a legit security vehicle and was wearing a uniform?

Of course the trio would feel it was OK to be in a vehicle with the security guard and it would be easy enough to trick them into getting into the truck.

[Jdee]

Hi... Justthinking and Princess Rose...Of all the scenerios I've read this one makes the most since to me. How easy it would be for a fake cop/security guard to con the girls away from the mall! The post card still bugs me though. What was the purpose of that? To taunt the family? Was he buying time? If so why not more details in it then just a very vauge note? Also since it arrived like the next day it makes me think it was preplanned a bit. Otherwise would the perp thought of it so fast after the crime?
Just rambling my thoughts here....

[Richard]

Hi... ... The post card still bugs me though. What was the purpose of that? To taunt the family? Was he buying time? If so why not more details in it then just a very vauge note? Also since it arrived like the next day it makes me think it was preplanned a bit. Otherwise would the perp thought of it so fast after the crime?
Just rambling my thoughts here....

This case, like a lot of others which got a lot of media coverage, probably has a lot of false leads and stories. There are probably a number of people who have actually "confessed" to the crime, or who have tried to take credit for it - or who have supplied information which is bogus or simply not pertinent to the actual crime.

Each piece of information has to be considered, but not necessarily given full weight when trying to come up with possible scenarios or theories or suspects.

There are indeed some (now) well documented and known offenders who might fit the profile or pattern of this or other crimes, but there were probably at any given time a few hundred evil individuals like him around the country doing similar crimes.

In regard to a possible connection between this tripple disappearance and that of the Lyon Sisters, I would invite anyone to visit the Lyon sisters site here on Websleuths. There are a lot of POSSIBLE suspects and similar cases posted there for comparison. It is very doubtful if any of those possible suspects were working together, or if they even knew eachother, but perhaps one guy committed one of the crimes and someone else committed another.

The possibly connected cases mentioned on the Lyon Sisters topic discussion could also be connected to this case.

[justthinkin]

I have temporarily deleted my post to check for any copyright infringements.

[justthinkin]

February 27, 1973, the body of Becky Martin, a young married housewife and student at Tarrant County Junior College in southeast Ft. Worth was found in a culvert. Her remains, too badly decomposed to determine manner of death. She'd been abducted from a parking lot at the school in mid afternoon. Her purse still in her car.

Feb. 17, 1974, Carla Walker was abducted from a vehicle in the parking lot of a bowling alley on the west side of Ft. Worth, shortly after midnight, and while out on a date. She may have been held for several days before being murdered. She was found Feb. 20th, her body also left in a culvert out near Benbrook Lake. Her date. Rodney McCoy was fully cleared of any involvement.

Of interesting note, Debardeleben had earlier rec'd. 5 years probation for a series of car thefts. He'd dumped someone's brand new Corvette in Benbrook Lake. His partner in crime squealed on him.

Retired Ft. Worth detective, John Terrell may believe both these murders were committed by the same suspect--not Debardeleben. Ft. Worth LE didn't agree with his theories according to statements Terrell made on his website http://www.justiceforcarla.com/thecase.shtml Well worth reading.

Terrell makes a good case for "his suspect" in the Carla Walker murder; however, it's possible the two murders are unrelated. The fact that Walker was also found in a culvert could have been a copycat disposal or not, whichever the case may be.

June 1, 1979, Mike Debardeleben abducted a girl named Laurie Jensen in Maryland. She was later released. During her ordeal, Debardeleben insisted on calling her, "Becky."

The above tidbit is the major reason for my post. I'm wondering if Debardeleben's insistence on calling Jensen, "Becky" goes back to an earlier crime he may have committed in Ft. Worth, TX.

The 2 culvert murders may or may not be related to the 3 girls missing, but I feel they are worth mentioning here for possible connections.

Is it possible that Debardeleben is responsible for Becky Martin's murder? Could he have abducted, Carla Walker, and held her as he was later known to do? He seemed to latch onto a fantasy, rehearse it in his mind, and then carry it out. Was abducting 3 girls or at least two, yet another of his fantasies?

Later in passing counterfeit money, he made Dallas one of his many stops, but he avoided Ft. Worth or at least there's no mention of him passing funny money there that I'm aware of. Did he have his reasons?

It's hard to say whether or not he was in Ft. Worth on all the dates when each of these killings or abductions took place. He and his wife Caryn did move back to 3920 Spurgeon St., Ft. Worth sometime before his mother died in September of 1973, but when exactly?

By April of 1974, he and Caryn had returned to Virginia. On May5, 1975 he beat Phillipa Voliner with a gun in Memphis, TN.

His activities and whereabouts are then unaccounted for until 1976 when he is first arrested for counterfeiting. Did he return to Ft. Worth toward the end of 1974? It's unknown. He certainly was familiar with the territory.He certainly seemed not to hang around long after some of his crimes, moving frequently and rapidly.
__________________

[Jdee]

[quote=Richard;3991137]This case, like a lot of others which got a lot of media coverage, probably has a lot of false leads and stories. There are probably a number of people who have actually "confessed" to the crime, or who have tried to take credit for it - or who have supplied information which is bogus or simply not pertinent to the actual crime."

You know Richard it has run through my mind that the post card meant nothing and was just some mean idot person out there that sent it that had nothing at all to do with these girls disapearence.

[Balthazar]

[quote=Richard;3991137]This case, like a lot of others which got a lot of media coverage, probably has a lot of false leads and stories. There are probably a number of people who have actually "confessed" to the crime, or who have tried to take credit for it - or who have supplied information which is bogus or simply not pertinent to the actual crime."

You know Richard it has run through my mind that the post card meant nothing and was just some mean idot person out there that sent it that had nothing at all to do with these girls disapearence.

JDee: The problem with that thought is that initially the police thought the trio were runaways, so there was no abduction report in the media about the trio and the case didn't hit the media until the next day - December 24. The letter appeared in Tommy's mailbox without any other mail on the morning of December 24, 1978 - too early for someone to have learned about the crime through TV or newspapers. Texas Sandman, who lived on the same street is troubled by this because he says there was never morning mail delivery on that street. Which begs the question, what caused Tommy to go to the mailbox and find this letter?

[Jdee]

Interesting Princess Rose.. I did read what TexasSandman said about the mail. Though I also read that sometimes the mail did come early in their area. I don't know if I find it unusual to check the mail in the morning though. Maybe he was outside and just happen to think about it or remembered he hadn't checked it the day before so went and checked it early. Heck I've done that...
But the idea that word was not out yet about the girls and the card arriveing before hand is very suspicious. Though my gut still doesn't connect the husband here... but more to a stranger abduction.

[Balthazar]

I ordered the biographies of Debardebelen to try to put together a timeframe and am trying to get in contact with one of his biograhers so I can determine if this man was definitely in Ft. Worth on Dec. 24, 1974. I'll be looking for other clues that might indicate her was involved in the trio's disappearance as well. There can be no doubt that he is the sort of person who could pull off such a crime:

high intelligence
worked alone - secretive
disguised himself as police officer or security person in order to win victim's trust
hatred for women
committed crimes at malls
lived nearby
highly organized
was flying beneath police radar at the time of the trio case
changes type of crimes readily
tended to offend around holidays

All of this is circumstantial. It will be interesting if we can find even more evidence that will point to this person.

[justthinkin]

Debardeleben had an IQ of 127, high enough to get into medical school, and certainly higher than your average man with a badge.

I just read something, and wish I could relay where I got the info, but I've been reading quite a bit, not only what's available on Debard..., but also the psychology and progression of serial killers, whom at least one source rates on a scale of 16-22. Debard...falls into the 22 range.

back to my original thought...some of the higher ranked killers are so organized, their schemes so well rehearsed that when they finally commit their first murder or 1st. robbery it may look like another guy's 20th. murder or robbery.

[mnegri1973]

Concerning the Security Guard who came forward 26 years after the fact.....In the article that Scott Gordon reported on, the man states that he called LE, where he left his name, phone number and what he saw. However he claims that LE never contacted him and that is why he came forward after all this time. I would hope that all lead that were originally called in would have been kept with the original file. If that is the case then it would be very easy to check to see if the SG did REALLY come forward.

Again, this is coming from an article that was being written 26 years later, but it makes me wonder just how well the initial investigation was done. To think that LE did not even try to question or interview mall security to see if anything funny had been going on during the time before, after, and on the actual day in question.

M ~

[Balthazar]

Frustratingly, the book, Beyond Cruel, does not offer much insight into Debardeleben's exact whereabouts in 1974. However, in 1973, he was staying at his mom's house (month unknown) when he suddenly called his wife Caryn and demanded that although she had had surgery that day, she fly from VA to DFW airport. He didn't pick her up at the airport, and when she got to his mom's house on Spurgeon St., she found Debardaleben had a young blonde woman drugged and tied up in the attic. He told her that he had raped her and they had done a lot of drugs. She later claimed that she talked Debardeleben out of killing the girl and they dropped her off somewhere - but couldn't explain where. Justthinkin mentioned to me yesterday that she thought the girl in the attic might be Carla Walker. Knowing that Debardeleben's mother was dying of cancer at the time and that morphine was an end of life pain management tool for cancer patients back in the 1970's, it makes sense that he would have access to it and we both suspect that he was involved in the Carla Walker case.
http://www.unsolved-crimes.com/walker.html

[justthinkin]

Princess Rose, I just read that the FBI had searched the Spurgeon St. residence for bodies underneath the house. They didn't find anything. Well shoot. This tells me that Ft. Worth LE must know about Debardeleben because the FBI would've had to get permission to search the grounds, and I feel sure Ft. Worth LE was there watching the proceedings.

Still, s it doesn't necessarily clear him for the Martin or Walker murders. Perhaps LE thinks he did it, but just didn't have enough to go to trial with. Might be the same story with Rachel, Renee, and Julie Ann, if he was in Ft. Worth at that time, and that's a big if. I mean, we know where Becky and Carla were found. Don't know who, specifically, the FBI was searching for under that house. Maybe they were just checking it out to see if he'd stashed anyone under there, just going through the motions. I don't think Debard...would've been one to dump bodies under his own house. I think he was too cagey for that.

[Balthazar]

Yes, I agree, there is no way Debardeleben would bury bodies on his property or his mom's property. His fantasy was to have a house with a secret basement with a cell and and an industrial strength incinerator. Thank God he never got the chance to build that. What I wonder about, if Carla was in the attic at that house - back in 1984 they would not have had DNA technology. What I wonder is if they searched the attic and took everything out of there and if they found anything that might have DNA on it - such as the supposed stumps of marijuana cigarettes. That could prove that Carla or one of the other missing Ft. Worth girls was there.

I'm sure figuring out who all Debardeleben killed is not exactly high priority anymore since he has been put away for life. He is probably suspected, but he's not going to come clean. Yet, if they could get DNA on whoever he kept in the attic and run tests, that would be of great help, IMO.

[justthinkin]

The fact the Feds searched the crawlspace of the house says they didn't entirely buy Caryn's stories.

Princess Rose, Have you come across any tales in the book that remind you of either the 3 girls in Tx or the 2 in Maryland?

[Balthazar]

The fact the Feds searched the crawlspace of the house says they didn't entirely buy Caryn's stories.

Princess Rose, Have you come across any tales in the book that remind you of either the 3 girls in Tx or the 2 in Maryland?

There is a scenario where he kidnapped two men - a gay couple - one was a bank manager. One of the men was sick with a stomach virus, so the other took him to the ER. When they returned home, Debardeleben was in their house (he had smashed a window to get in) and he literally ambushed them. So, he has done crimes involving multiple people. He seemed to specifically choose victims who are easy to control with fear. If they fought back, they mostly got away from him, albeit after a beating. The problem with Debardeleben's case is that while some of it is really well documented, there seem to be some really huge gaps as well. There is a lot that is known, but whole expanses of time that are unaccounted for. I am hoping that the next book will shed more light on his activities. But I'm only halfway through the first one, so there may be more information in it.

[Balthazar]

The book, Beyond Cruel, says that a Secret Service agent named Jim Rich investigated DeBardeleben's crimes in Ft. Worth and he looked at 20 unsolved homicides and some of the cases "bore unmistakable similarities to DeBardeleben's M.O. and rituals." (page 192) Frustratingly, the author doesn't list which Ft. Worth murders that Debardeleben is suspected of committing.

It goes on to describe the search of the attic of the house on Spurgeon St. They found two adjustible initial rings: one with an L another with an E. There was also a plastic cord in the attic that Debardeleben had used to tie the blonde woman to the beams and a crushed pair of women's sunglasses, Valentine's box. With these items available, it seems to me that they should be tested for DNA.

[justthinkin]

A valentine's box? Whoa. Maybe that was to remind him of Carla.

PR, I can't find the list of the area girls, dead or missing, that you posted. I know it wasn't that long ago. Sheesh, do you know which page it's on?

[Balthazar]

A valentine's box? Whoa. Maybe that was to remind him of Carla.

PR, I can't find the list of the area girls, dead or missing, that you posted. I know it wasn't that long ago. Sheesh, do you know which page it's on?

Post #291 page 9 - I think - but the cases don't go far enough back if you're trying to match up the L and E from the two rings. I also went through the Texas missing persons database - nada. So the body or bodies may have been found. I may have to haul off and go to the library to research - this is really annoying - older crime data should be on the internet - it's not like there is a capacity issue.

[Balthazar]

I thought I would list out similar cases that have been discussed at Websleuths:

The Lyon Sisters
The Leslie Sisters
The Gaveston Mall disappearance (discussed earlier in this thread)

My research into Debardeleben indicates that he had a tendency to commit the same type of crime over and over in different areas of the country. For example he attacked and murdered female realtors with several years in between offenses. In one case, the realtor successfully fought him off and escaped, in two other cases, he killed them. However, these are in no way his only victims. A few of his victims escaped, but many were never found and starting in the 1980's he had a tendency to let his victims go - changing his pattern, yet again for unknown reasons.

There is no way to know if these cases are really linked or not, but there are some similarities, most particularily between the trio case and the Lyon sisters case.

In the Lyon case, the two sisters disapeared from a mall around the Easter holiday and were never found.

The Leslie Sisters case is similar only in that it was multiple girls - two girls - who disapeared at the time that their father was dying of cancer and the girls were never found. They disapeared while walking from their house to a friends house. They had lied to their parents and actually were going to a teen party. There is conflicting information as to whether or not they actually arrived at the party.

The Galveston Mall case - two girls disappeared from a mall but their bodies were found fairly soon. The case remains unsolved.

[Balthazar]

Hi... Justthinking and Princess Rose...Of all the scenerios I've read this one makes the most since to me. How easy it would be for a fake cop/security guard to con the girls away from the mall! The post card still bugs me though. What was the purpose of that? To taunt the family? Was he buying time? If so why not more details in it then just a very vauge note? Also since it arrived like the next day it makes me think it was preplanned a bit. Otherwise would the perp thought of it so fast after the crime?
Just rambling my thoughts here....

IF Debardeleben committed this crime, he would have thought it out in great detail beforehand and been completely prepared - he used to write scripts for himself and even his victims. So, he would have planned for the victim to write a note - I guess his purpose was to throw off the police. He hated the police in Ft. Worth and he hated women. He would have wanted to make the police look like fools.

[Richard]

The case of the missing Lyon Sisters (Wheaton, MD 25 March 1975) has been mentioned a few times in this thread as a possible linked case to the missing Fort Worth girls.

I would like to suggest a possible suspect who is discussed in some depth on the Lyon topic threads as a possible link between the two cases: Ellwood Leroy Leuschner.

Although there is no physical evidence connecting him to either crime, Leuschner is both a convicted child rapist, and a child abductor/murderer.

He raped a 12 year old girl in a church in California while dressed as a priest. Convicted of that crime, he was paroled in 1974 and disappeared some time afterward. He turned up in Maryland where he was arrested and convicted for murdering two little boys in 1977.

Records are spotty and somewhat confusing. The state of California claimed that he did not leave the state until 1976, but Leuschner himself claimed to have been in Maryland since 1974.

He COULD have been in Fort Worth, Texas in December of 1974, and in Maryland by March 1975.

Just food for thought. If he did not commit these crimes, then he probably was busy committing others. Here is a link to a thread in Cold Cases on Leuschner:

Meet Ellwood Leroy LEUSCHNER serial rapist and murderer - Page 1 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

[Balthazar]

Last night I was reading Beyond Cruel and I read a page that talked about stuff DeBardeleben had hidden away in his various storage rooms - all not connected to his house - these were at storage facilities. The book mentioned that the Secret Service found quite a bit of women's jewelry and the way it is described in the book, it was NEVER matched back to it's rightful owners - which is why they suspect Debardeleben of so many more murders than what is known. It seems to me, one way to determine if Debardeleben was involved in the trio case would be to ask the Secret Service to check and see if any of Rachel or Renee's rings match what is in the Debardeleben evidence boxes. The Secret Service is the agency which found these items and catalogued them, so I would suspect they still have custody of these items.

[Balthazar]

The things that make me thinkthe unsub could be Debardeleben are these:
1. Known to masquerade as LE/security - would disguise himself to win his victim's trust.
2. Known to have more than one victim at a time.
3. Known to commit crimes at malls.
4. Known ties to Ft. Worth.
5. Knows the Seminary South area well.
6. Inexplicably, never committed any financial crimes at Seminary South.
7. Suspected in many unsolved disappearances and murders in Ft. Worth.
8. Highly organized and intelligent offender.
9. Tended to commit crimes around holidays.
10. Known to commit crimes against young women.
11. Debardeleben killed Terry McDonald (a realtor) April 1971 due to her resemblance to his mother.
12. "Caryn" who Debardeleben married at age 17 or 18 in 1970, suffered from MPD and had 3 distinct personalities.
13. Debardeleben's mother died in Ft. Worth in September of 1973. Debardeleben and Caryn were staying with her in her house at the time.
14. At some point after his mother's death - timeline is very unclear, they returned to Alexandria, VA. Sometime after April in 1974, his wife Caryn left him and managed to hide from him. Debardeleben was enraged with Caryn - more than with any other woman in his life which could have escalated his behavior and led to him acting out by committing even more crimes against other women.

[justthinkin]

There's really nothing I can add. Excellent work, Princess Rose. Him letting more go towards the end is really baffling. Seems to work in the reverse more often. Perhaps he wanted to be caught if even subconsciously.

He repeated the realtor murders because they were easy for him. He is one disgusting character is all I have to say. Was he put to death? I'm thinking he was.

Have you started or finished the other book yet?

[Balthazar]

I emailed Debardeleben's biographer, Stephen G. Michaud asking if Debardeleben could be a suspect in the trio case and he replied that FWPD did consider Debardeleben "a possible suspect" in this case but were not able to establish anything. Michaud didn't have anymore information about what dates Debardeleben was in Ft. Worth the year the trio disappeared and forwarded my question to the Secret Service. I hope that my inquiry to Michaud may get the Secret Service to look into this case further. I also thought about Debra - we still don't know if the letter puportedly from Rachel had any DNA on the envelope or stamp. I can only hope it did and that they might be able to compare Debardeleben's DNA to the letter. If he was still married at the time to "Caryn" I hope they will compare hers as well.

[justthinkin]

Looks like it comes down to rings,photos, and dna. We just have to hope something pans out here!

This isn't just one disappearance, it's three, and it should receive some sort of precedence IMO.

[tatertot]

I haven't read this thread in a while and shame on me for that, but after catching up I definitely think this Mike D. should be investigated thoroughly. IMHO, there's no excuse NOT to test the stamp and envelope for DNA against him and his former wife, and LE should also compare the descriptions of Renee's promise ring and Rachel's wedding ring against any found in Mike D's house.

I personally doubt Shawna (Tommy's ex-wife) could have had a role in this. I can't see how a young woman/teenager could have overpowered three other girls, regardless of whether she had a weapon. I also can't imagine someone having the time to hide three bodies beneath the mall's lowest floor without anyone discovering them, but it would be worth an investigation nonetheless.

[txsvicki]

The note in the mail is still a problem though. Knowing that it's totally ridiculous that a married young girl, a young teen, and a little child ran away together is a problem. Whoever took them wanted it to seem like they all ran away together. A total idiot, but I guess the police thought the same way. This letter writer also was concerned that the car would be found and pointed the girls' destination pretty far away in Houston. The girls could have left the mall and been abducted by someone they knew or gotten into some trouble and the car taken back to the mall by someone who knew they had been at the mall. The girls didn't necessarily have to even know this person well at all, or it could have been someone visiting the area for the holidays. I just don't see some stranger lunatic bothering to write a letter unless he were visiting for the holidays and was trying to avoid any detection at all. But, I still don't see why the concern for the car being found unless it was important to make it seem like they vanished from the mall.

[Balthazar]

TXVicki, that is a good point. The point of the letter may indeed have been to "make it seem" like the girls vanished from the mall by pointing to the car in the lot, thus obfuscating the actual location they were kidnapped from.

[justthinkin]

Good point, txvicki. The thought occured to me that perhaps the girls caught the eye of someone when they stopped at the Army Surplus Store, and were followed from there. Perhaps Debardeleben pulled them over posing as a cop. Told them he'd seen one of them steal something at the store.


I wonder if anyone ever bothered to look at the placement of the driver's seat to see if a taller person might have driven the car.

[Kaiser Sousa]

Why would the Secret Service have an interest in debarden?

[Richard]

Why would the Secret Service have an interest in debarden?

Probably because of his Counterfeiting activities.

[Balthazar]

Kaiser Sousa- Good question! I didn't know about this either until I read the book about Debardeleben. Here's why the Secret Service caught him as opposed to the FBI or police:

The United States, the Secret Service is unique in that it has a twofold mission: protect and investigate. Starting in 1865 when President Lincoln was confronted with a large number of counterfeit bills being passed around the country, Treasury Secretary Hugh McCulloch suggested that there needed to be a continuous and organized effort to protect our nation's currency and a Treasury Investigation team was created. Hours later President Lincoln was assasinated, followed by Presidents Garfield and McKinley. At that point the responsibilities of the Treasury Investigation team were expanded to include the role of protection of the president. Today, now called the Secret Service, the Secret Service protects the president and his family as well as foreign heads of state AND they also police all currency, food stamps, treasury bills, savings bonds, investigate financial crimes and internet crimes. In May, 1983, the Secret Service had been searching for someone known to them as "The Mall Passer" who was a man who passed forged $20. They caught him near Knoxville, TN after he had passed a whole lot of forgeries in the area and upon looking for his printing paraphenalia, discovered that he was a serial killer - "The Mall Passer" was Debardeleben.

[Kaiser Sousa]

Last week I had business with the Fort Worth Park Dept. Their office is upstairs in the old Sears building at Seminary South. When I finished I asked where the mall's current owner\management office was. It was on the same floor. I spoke to the receptionist, telling her I was doing research and wanted to know if there was any info on the mall when it first opened anywhere. She referred me to the head of Security, who she said had been there forever during the mall's other lifes. His office was in the basement by the food court. I went out in the mall and boy has that placed changed, it was really fixed up and looked brand new. The Murphy's building was gone and I couldnt tell where the entrance to the old bowling alley was. There wasnt any entrance area to the old basement area where the radio station was either. She gave me the head of security's name, I dont want to mention it on here but if anyone knows any names of security guards that were mentioned in the investigation, send me a private message. Oh yeah , I chickened out about going down to the security office would rather do it when I have someone with me.

[Balthazar]

Kaiser: If you meet with the head of security there ask him if he is the one who saw the trio with the other security guard. If he is, show him Mike Debardeleben's photo and ask if this could be the security guard he saw the girls with. There is a photo of Debardeleben from the era here:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/debardeleben/evil_3.html

[justthinkin]

Kaiser, it is okay to chicken out! I'm sure hoping you get your courage up and get someone to go with you or a whole pack of someones. : )
You might turn up something about the case that isn't known. Ya know, people forget stuff, but then someone or something triggers a memory, and all of a sudden there's some new tidbit added.

Heck, if you get some big, burly guy to go with you, maybe you can get a tour of the basement and any changes made to it. I'm just not sure now if these girls ever made it to the mall that day. How I would dearly love to know the position the driver's seat was in. Was it in a proper position for Rachel to be driving or had the seat been pushed back farther to fit someone else.

Rose, about those two guys and Debardeleben. He didn't have to abduct them and take them elsewhere so that's a different scenario. I'm thinking if Debardeleben stopped the girls' car, and told them he was taking them down to the station to process for theft, he would've put at least one, possibly two in handcuffs. I can't remember back that far if the driver could control the locks on all the doors from the driver's position or if that was a later invention. I do remember a time when all four doors had to be checked to be certain they were locked. There was a time when people didn't lock their car doors either unless they had packages or something else of value in them. I bring this up only to question the possibility that maybe one of the girls might have been able to escape, but I doubt it. If he had cuffs on two, he'd have had a gun on the third or a knife.

[Balthazar]

Justthinkin: No Debardeleben didn't kidnap the two guys, but he proved in that case that he was capable of gaining control of more than 1 person at a time. That's what I meant. Three scared girls would be easy for an experience criminal with a detailed plan like Debardeleben to control, IMO.

I do like the theory that the note may have been to hide the actual location from which the girls were taken. That's a very interesting possibility. The unsub could have talked to the girls previously and asked what they were doing that day, casually, found out they were going to the mall and taken them from anywhere to a safe house, confined them in some way, then taken the car to the mall himself and posted the letter.

[Kaiser Sousa]

Has this case ever been on TV? like an America's Most Wanted kind of show

[eeyorelrn]

This would be a good case for someone like 48 Hours, or Dateline NBC, or even PrimeTime Mysteries... There actually seems to be some good clues and possible POI's, but time seems to have maybe slowed the momentum down. It would be worth a shot to see if even a Local Station would want to do a story, maybe refresh the memories of some of the long time residents... Couldn't hurt ya know?

[scriptgirl]

My thoughts will be brief, but I think that Rachel's sister may be mixed up in this. I read the interview she gave and the fact that she used to be engaged to Rachel's hubby set off alarm bells in my head

[Balthazar]

December 23, 2009 will be the 35th Anniversary of the Trio's disappearance. Please join me in praying that these girls are found so that their family can get closure.

I would like to see this case featured on a true crime show. I believe that it may still be solveable, if only by circumstantial evidence.

[TexasSandman]

Time flies..didn't realize it had been so long since I checked in...just got caught up tho and I have to say the Debard character sure sounds like someone that needs a closer look in this case. I'm going to have to get hose books pronto.

Debra I hope you and your family are doing well. I really thought that local news would run something this year on the anniversary considering it's been 35 years now.

I also wanted to clarify something....ages ago I wrote that I lived on the same street as Rachel...I lived on the same street as her mom,dad, debra, & rusty....not where she lived with tommy at the time of the disappearances (though if I understand correctly, they didn't live far away) I just wanted to clear that up.

It sure seems like it would be a simple enough task to check Debard's DNA against what was found on the envelope/stamp. Debra do you know if that DNA profile was ever entered into the FBI CODIS database? I'd be surprised if not, and more surprised if Debard's wasn't entered already in the event of such likelyhoods.

Rose did you ever get a chance to go back and speak with the head of security?

ok I promise I won't stay away anywhere near as long as this last stretch...

again..time flies

:prayer:
This holiday season be thankfull for all that you have, praise the reason for the season, and say a prayer for Rachel, Lisa, Julie Ann, & their families.

[Kaiser Sousa]

The Fort Worth Star Telegram had a front page story about the girls today, I'll post a link later

[Stella]

The Fort Worth Star Telegram had a front page story about the girls today, I'll post a link later
Thanks, Kaiser Sousa. I'm looking forward to reading it. Hope it has some new info.

[TexasSandman]

http://startelegram.typepad.com/crime_time/2009/12/three-young-girls-now-missing-35-years.html

nothing new though and pretty short.

[justthinkin]

Does anyone remember who the male relative was that was questioned, and then released? Which family was he related to?

I read something recently that applied to the West Memphis 3 case in which 3 8 yr. olds were abducted and killed. Someone had done a profile on that killer, and said the person had to have been seen as an authority figure and trusted by the 3 boys in order for them to go with him.

We can talk Debardeleben all day, but without concrete proof, we've still got nothing, so I wanted to bring up this relative again. Wasn't he one of the girl's uncles?

I sure wish Deige would come back on and comment on this. Family member's perceptions carry a lot of weight, IMO.

[TexasSandman]

Update - AMW has posted the case on their website - http://www.amw.com/missing_children/case.cfm?id=69919 It contains some interesting facts we haven't seen before.

[southern_scout]

This is one of those cases that I ran across on Charley Project that stuck with me. I am glad to see it bumped here.

[s_v_c]

Hi Everybody,

First time poster here.... I came across this case randomly on the AMW website - my own sister's name is Rachel, so the name caught my eye, and I found it so intriguing I eventually found my way over here and read over all of your comments and discussion.

There's some really good theories on here, but I had a scenario of my own in mind that I don't think anyone else has mentioned. I agree with the majority of the posters here that these 3 girls wouldn't have ran away from home this close to christmas without some sort of extenuating circumstances. One thing that's always struck me about this is the strangeness of the "missing trio" being together in the first place. 17 and 14 aren't really that far apart.... but it seems like it when you are that age. When I was 17, I wouldn't really have wanted to hang out with friends that much younger than me, and with Rachel being a young married, the difference in life situations would be even greater between Rachel and Renee. And I definitely wouldn't have wanted a 9-year old kid tagging along.

Which comes to my theory... what if the older girls found Julie Ann a bit of an inconvenience while doing their teenage-hangout-thing and let her wander off on her own for a bit, or perhaps she wandered off of her own accord... and then they couldn't find her when it came time to think about leaving. It's hard to imagine 3 girls being abducted together - but it's much more plausible for the 9-year-old to be grabbed on her own. This might have led Rachel and Renee to then take off out of extreme guilt - at that age, and in that situation, I don't know what I would have done if I were them. I certainly couldn't imagine the agony of having to tell the 9-year old's mother that her child was missing right before Christmas. That's about the only situation I could think of that would make them leave willingly, and could even possibly explain the note - Rachel wanted Tommy to know where the car was and that they were going away for a bit so that they wouldn't "catch it". In this case, they may have even watched from afar to see if Julie ended up coming back, explaining the open-endedness of the note. She did not, and neither did they.

This is just an idea I came up with, thinking back to how I would have felt at that age - teenagers don't tend to have the clearest thinking in emergencies.

[TexasSandman]

Bump >http://www.amw.com/missing_children/case.cfm?id=69919 we need as much traffic as possible to this story so that AMW will feature it on the television show. Thanks everyone

[TexasSandman]

another bump

[justthinkin]

Hi SVC, and welcome to Websleuths! Good first post, and interesting theory you've got there. If that was what happened don't you think at some point the two older girls would've called their mothers, even years later? And Rachel was very close to her slightly older sister--is my understanding.

I think all three were abducted and either killed or sold into slavery. It's taken me a good while to come around to the idea of slavery, but if Julie really did call her mother years later, then I would have to go with slavery as a distinct possibility. It could have been that the abductors were after Julie, and Rachel and Renee were killed. If that were the case, it could make sense that Julie having been through no telling what--prostitution and drugs for starters, might fear her family wouldn't want her back. Nine is so young. She could've been brain-washed to think that. I mean look at Jaycee Dugard. She had opportunity to run, but didn't. Fear is ingrained in victims in cases such as hers.

I think about these girls often. I just wish we had answers or at least some new lead, anything that could possibly help find them. Then again, I also wish Fort Worth police had dusted Rachel's car for fingerprints. That might have helped a great deal. Sigh.

[TexasSandman]

Julie Ann's "call" was in Feb of 75, just 2 months after the disappearances. I know the way some reports have recounted it makes it seem like it was several years later, but it wasn't even a full two months.

[s_v_c]

Julie's phone call confused me a bit too - even the AMW website makes it sound years later in occurrence. I definitely agree that the slavery theory works better with this fact (provided this wasn't another prank call - the AMW website makes reference to plenty of those, and although I think Julie's mother would recognize her voice, wishful thinking may have played a part in the recognition). I don't know much about slavery in the US, but I plan to do some research online and see what I can find out. I agree though, if slavery is the answer, Julie was probably the target as the youngest.

justthinking - thanks for the welcome! I'm not really sure why the two older wouldn't have contacted their families if my theory is correct, unless they fear legal repercussions of some sort for running away/misleading the investigation. Although, as other posters have mentioned, Rusty does seem to imply he has heard from Rachel in some way in an interview. Maybe she would reach out to Rusty rather than Debra because he was younger when she ran away and therefore she might expect him to be less judgmental of her behaviour and decisions. She did seem to be very close to Debra, but may not be confident enough in her response to approach her - most people would just want to hear from their family regardless, but when you're the one in the situation, it does feel differently and people don't always behave rationally. Fear and guilt can really mess with people's heads.

Also - one more quick idea that could support my theory came to me when I was reading over some of the older posts, particularly those of Deige - she mentioned that the only Christmas presents left in the car was a gift from Renee to Rachel's stepson, and that they likely took the jeans from the Army/Navy with them into the mall to look for a top. I think it's interesting that items known to have been purchased for themselves went missing along with them, while that purchased for someone else was left behind.

[michiganlifer]

I also have been very interested in this case for a long time and I am new to posting. This is a strange one, and I wonder why it has taken so long to interview all the people that possibly saw the abduction. On the AMW website it has listed three savings bonds, that was a new piece of information. I always thought they would target one and "get rid of" the other two. Just a crummy opinion.

[s_v_c]

I thought the savings bond detail on AMW was interesting too. I don't know too much about them, but isn't it a certificate that you have to redeem after a certain time? I think it's very strange these certificates would be in the car - wouldn't you normally have them in a safe place at home? To have them together, in the car, etc. would indicate to me that someone was planning to cash them in. It'd be nice if we had more specific information on them, such as who's exactly they were and if any of the families noticed they were missing.

Also, the "missing trio" website hasn't been updated in ages... does anyone have any ideas on Rachel's brother's current attitude towards the case? It was pretty clear at one point he was fixated on Debra, but I have no idea if that's still the case.

[michiganlifer]

I thought savings bonds were issued to a specific person. Isn't there a way to tell if they ever were cashed in? I have read this entire websleuth sight on this case and I wish Debra would log back in. Debra would know more about those savings bonds. I think Debra and Rachel being sisters were quite close. The old posting from 2002 said they had several suspects and were using DNA to try and narrow them down. I wonder where they are with that? Those poor families after 35 years deserve some answers.

[Cymro]

Cross posting here: possible match between Rachel and a suspected Rodney Alcala victim:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Police asks help identifying the people in photos taken by murderer

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/2237/kz3dwykz3dwc0094.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6697/ncmc601926c1.th.jpg

[Finn]

^An excellent find! I take this has been reported to the LE?

[Mr. E]

^An excellent find! I take this has been reported to the LE?

I did email the detective in charge, but another poster in the other thread pointed out that it was likely Alcala was incarcerated at the time the girls went missing. Couldn't hurt to report it, though, which I did.

[Finn]

^I think it was a good decision to report it. There could easily be a mistake in the timeline. Better be safe than sorry :)
edit. Even if Alcal did not kidnap these girls I think it is still possible that the girl in the picture is Rachel. Alcala might have gotten the picture from someone or he might have somehow met Rachel at a later time and taken the picture then. I understood that LE are not entirely sure what these photographs are..

[michiganlifer]

This picture sure does look like Rachel. I went through Alcala's pictures before this was picked up here on websleuths and I picked Rachel out of the many pictures too. This looks like a pensive, unhappy Rachel, but nevertheless still looks like her especially in the eyes. I wonder if Debra thinks this is her.

[s_v_c]

Wow, what a great physical likeness, especially the eyes and the hair... not sure about the lips though.

[michiganlifer]

The bridge of her nose and her lips don't look exactly the same, but then her head is tipped differently in the larger, color picture. It just makes you wonder if poor Rachel fell for some line from that creep Alcala and ended up paying the ultimate price for it. Rachel looked like she was a very pretty girl in 1974, tall and thin.