What Room?

[7kluz]

This is a hypothetical question, of course: (at least for the record ;)) What room was JonBenét killed in? If John was molesting her, would he do that in her bed? OR would he lure her downstairs first? She reportedly had dirty feet, but maybe she had taken her shoes off at the White's earlier, then just put her shoes and socks back on without washing them first. I believe she was murdered upstairs in her room and that most of the "finishing off" and staging occured in the basement.

[Toltec]

7Kluz...I'm sorry to admit that every time I see your hat, I pronounce it 7 KLUTZ....tee hee! What exactly does your hat mean?

Anyhoo...I believe that JonBenet was initially assaulted in her room because a paring knife was found on the counter outside of JonBenets room and cord fibers were found on her sheet. Was the cord cut on her bed? Possibly.

Patsy was in JAR's room packing for the trip to Orlando. I believe whatever happened that night started there. Perhaps JB went into JAR's room looking for Mommy and found her packing.

JonBenet tells Patsy that she soiled herself and so Patsy takes JonBenet to her toilet. Does that explain the soiled pants found on the bathroom floor...and the red turtleneck found balled up on the bathroom counter?

Will explain the rest later...got to tend to the kids.

[7kluz]

Sorry for what? Calling me 7klutz instead of 7kluz is a common error (and is even sometimes an accurate description ;)). Hee hee, so no problem here. :D

Actually it is pronounced "7 clues", and was just a hat that I have used since 1997 when I first began posting online after JonBenét's murder, (at least at any forum that allows a number before a letter in our "hats"). Otherwise it is a variation of that, such as: kluz7 or kluz4u or 7kluz7.

It has always annoyed me when others hide behind many "hats", so I have always chosen to use just one moniker, for the sake of integrity, in addition to the fact that I have no intention of creating havoc anywhere --so I have no need for numerous identities...lol

[Toth]

The intruder undoubtedly took JonBenet from her bed while she was sleeping. He did not lure her in any fashion. She is thought to have died where the urine was voided outside the room where she was found and near the paint tote.
John Ramsey was not molesting JonBenet (or anyone else).
Neither John nor Patsy Ramsey got up during the night.
Patsy Ramsey was not in the JAR/Guest room that night.

[Imon128]

I think it happened in JB's room or her bathroom.

[twilight]

Thing that strikes me is that Steve Thomas thinks it happened in her bathroom, and he has seen ALL the evidence. Funny, I don't recall L$mit ever discussing where he thinks it happened. Or the Ramseys...they don't discuss where they think it happened either. Just ST. Now that is something to think about.

[Watching you]

mortal injury when she was carried down to the basement from her room. I believe the first injury was inflicted in her bedroom or bathroom. The second injury came shortly afterward, in the basement, as part of the staging. I believe she died in the basement.

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Watching you
mortal injury when she was carried down to the basement from her room. I believe the first injury was inflicted in her bedroom or bathroom. The second injury came shortly afterward, in the basement, as part of the staging. I believe she died in the basement.

I agree that the initial injury occurred in her bedroom. In my opinion, the crime scene photo of JonBenet's bed paints a clear scenario. JonBenet's killer believed that a blow to the head simply renders a person unconscious, as demonstrated in such comedy movies as 1941 and Animal House and National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. In my theory, JonBenet's killer gently removed the pillow from under JonBenet's head (I believe JonBenet was sleeping on her left side/stomach, which left her head turned so that the right side of her head was up, the left side of her head being against the bed), then put it over her head with a left hand, and delivered the head blow through the pillow with a right hand. This scenario would allow for the pillow to cushion the blow enough to avoid scalp lacerations, but the pillow was also thin enough to let much of the force through without absorbing it. I believe that JonBenet's killer then lifted the pillow off JonBenet with a left hand and without thinking, put the pillow near the foot of the bed. At that point, we have exactly what the intruder theorists always want via use of a stun gun; a truly unconscious JonBenet, who will not cry out or struggle while her hair is torn from her scalp when the ligature is knotted around her neck.

I dispute whether certain neck marks are from fingernails, but let us say they were. I believe that if they are nail marks, they are from the person who tied the ligature, and represent an attempt to remove the cord, an attempt that was abandoned when the killer realized that too much bodily physical evidence was at risk of being left in the effort. After all, it would not look good the next day if, for example, Patsy's hands were examined and several broken nails were found on her hands, Why, how would an innocent mother who had done nothing more than sleep be able to explain that?

[Watching you]

I have seen actual autopsy pictures of women who were strangled and who had fingernail gouges on their necks from trying to get the offending rope/ligature off. The marks are remarkable; IOW, there can be no doubt they were caused by fingernails. Myers wrote in his autopsy report that the marks on JB's neck were petechia. I think Myers knows the difference between fingernail gouges and petechia.

As bad as JB's neck looked in the autopsy pictures we saw, the pictures I saw were much worse. Imagine, if you can, someone slipping a slim rope around your neck and trying to strangle you - would you gently scratch your neck, or would you struggle violently in a life and death struggle, gouging the skin of your neck with your fingernails in order to slip your fingers under that ligature and pull it from your neck? I think the answer is obvious - and the pictures I saw showed longish, bloody gouges where the women had gouged the skin out of their necks trying to get the ligatures off. Their fingernails would have had bloody flesh and abundant, viable DNA available for testing - their own DNA. Contrary to what some have claimed, JBR did not have flesh under her fingernails, which certainly would have been there if she had gouged the skin on her neck.

I

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Watching you
I have seen actual autopsy pictures of women who were strangled and who had fingernail gouges on their necks from trying to get the offending rope/ligature off. The marks are remarkable; IOW, there can be no doubt they were caused by fingernails. Myers wrote in his autopsy report that the marks on JB's neck were petechia. I think Myers knows the difference between fingernail gouges and petechia.

I have a picture from MEDICOLEGAL INVESTIGATION OF DEATH of a woman at autopsy with nail marks on her neck, and you are correct; they are deep lacerations, not simple discolorations of the skin in small areas. Even at that, the book warns investigators not to assume that nail marks were made by the victim, since they could also be from the perpetrator.

[Arielle]

I believe that she died in the hallway outside of the wine cellar in the basement. Where the original crime occurred, IMO, depends on which theory I believe on any given day. I would say her bedroom, her bathroom, or even in the kitchen.

[gretchen]

Originally posted by Watching you
mortal injury when she was carried down to the basement from her room. I believe the first injury was inflicted in her bedroom or bathroom. The second injury came shortly afterward, in the basement, as part of the staging. I believe she died in the basement.

I also think the first injury happened in the JB's bathroom. I believe the perpetrator thought JB to be dead, carried her to the basement then realized she was still breathing. That is when I think the strangulation and staging of the crime scene occurred.

[Toth]

But there was no evidence of any such event taking place in the bathroom. No blood, no brain matter, no scalp material.

[Imon128]

Originally posted by Toth
But there was no evidence of any such event taking place in the bathroom. No blood, no brain matter, no scalp material.

That's because (drum roll) the head wound didn't bleed externally. :bigthumb:

[Imon128]

I think JB was moved to the basement to shelter Burke from all the "hubbub". At the point she was moved, she could have been deemed dead by the perp. Or he/she might have needed more time to work on her to try to revive her, and worried that Burke would waken and catch him/her.

[Toth]

Even if no external bleeding, there was still no scalp material, no hair, no impact on the scalp that matched a surface in the bathroom... and your scenario would have them calmly sitting down after all this and concocting a note full of movie phrases instead of a simple short note.

[Toltec]

I'll finish my theory.

Patsy knows that JonBenet needs a bath because she will be getting on a small plane in the morning and doesn't want to smell urine all the way to Charlevoix. While attempting to wipe JonBenet down, she notes that someone has been fooling with JonBenet down there. John is called into the room and Patsy and John get into it. Patsy attempts to strike John with the flashlight and instead hits JonBenet. Then the cover-up starts.

That is one of umpteen theories that I have.

And Toth...you always posting statements that you believe to be facts. You must be a FOR.

[twilight]

Toth: Drama queens do not concoct simple short notes...they point at anyone and everyone - hysterically!!

Working on the assumption (please, God) that ST knows a lot more than I do, I bow to his inside knowledge - Bathroom, it is.

[Toltec]

JonBenet had a scalp contusion (bruise) that was as long as the fracture. Does anyone know if a contusion appears after a person is dead?

I got an N64 that very same Christmas...and Super Mario 64 was the only game out there for this system. In the beginning of the game, Mario must fight a large Bomb which is tied with a chain around it's neck?

[Ivy]

Dr. Werner Spitz conducted experiments on human skulls in which he struck them with various objects, including a Maglite like the one found in the Rs' house. In the experiments, the damage incurred by the Maglite looked just like the damage on JonBenet's skull. I've never forgotten seeing Spitz's demonstration on TV and how impressive it was. Ever since, I've been almost completely sure that JonBenet was struck by the Maglite. The rubber rim would have protected the skin.

[FULTON]

Originally posted by Ivy
Dr. Werner Spitz conducted experiments on human skulls in which he struck them with various objects, including a Maglite like the one found in the Rs' house. In the experiments, the damage incurred by the Maglite looked just like the damage on JonBenet's skull. I've never forgotten seeing Spitz's demonstration on TV and how impressive it was. Ever since, I've been almost completely sure that JonBenet was struck by the Maglite. The rubber rim would have protected the skin.

I saw the very same show,very compelling evidence.

[Toth]

Originally posted by MsBee
Did anyone read or see *Sybil* where the mother abused/molested the child? Sybil was work of fiction.

[Ivy]

I don't know if the Sybil story is fiction, but the Rs' Intruder story sure is.

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Toth
Sybil was work of fiction.

No, the book was not a work of fiction. It may have taken occasional liberties, but DOI has done much the same (I have not obtained the paperback to see whether the Ramseys corrected their patent falsehoods in the hardcover that there were no Alamo rental car locations in Oklahoma, or that Geraldo Rivera's syndicated tv program appeared on the cable news network MSNBC, to name but two).

Here are articles about the real-life Sybil.

http://www.freep.com/news/nw/qsybil23.htm

http://www.aceweekly.com/Backissues_ACEWeekly/010802/cover_story010802.html

http://www.robertboynton.com/?art_id=135

[Imon128]

Originally posted by Toth
Even if no external bleeding, there was still no scalp material, no hair, no impact on the scalp that matched a surface in the bathroom... and your scenario would have them calmly sitting down after all this and concocting a note full of movie phrases instead of a simple short note.

If it happened in the bath tub, how difficult would it be to clean up the tub and rinse any evidence right down the drain?

I seriously doubt they were calm, writing the note, but motivated more by the desire to escape blame than the desire to be calm. We all have our priorities, right?

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by MsBee
Did anyone read or see *Sybil* where the mother abused/molested the child?

I think there was some kind of sick conspiracy of molestation or abuse. Can't decide which parent or maybe both. How it went bad is just guessing Patsy went over the edge. The pathological love JB & PR shared is the catalyst. The two adults are more important than the one child (guessing here, not my personal view on life). Then there are the other children to consider.

The parents did it somehow. One and the other covered. Together they think this is alright. \

Movie (Sybil) was beyond "belief!"
Reminds me of what D.Dunn stated on LKL "they are stuck with each other (the R's that is)!"

[Nedthan Johns]

7kluz:
This is a hypothetical question, of course: (at least for the record ) What room was JonBenét killed in? If John was molesting her, would he do that in her bed? OR would he lure her downstairs first? She reportedly had dirty feet, but maybe she had taken her shoes off at the White's earlier, then just put her shoes and socks back on without washing them first. I believe she was murdered upstairs in her room and that most of the "finishing off" and staging occured in the basement.


Ned: GREAT thread 7. Haven't seen a great thread in a long time. my thoughts... I also tend to believe she was murdered upstairs. I beleive the dusty feet came from helping Patsy possibly retrieve presents from the basement that she had to finish wrapping or perhaps to retrieve suitcases to pack for the trip. Here's a thought. Why were all the clothes that they were taking on their trip NOT in suitcases? Could it be because the suitcase was at one point brought up stairs? If JB was murdered and put in that case, as I STRONGLY believe, then Patsy wouldn't have packed the clothes in it. Before cops arrived, she had to throw the clothes in a bag and the suitcase was returned to the basement and placed in front of the broken window to simulate a break in. That is one of my theories. I believe that because of the rope fibers found in JB's bed that the garrote was either tied in bed after JB was struck in the head, or transfered there from Patsy's jacket when she returned to JB's room. I strongly lean towards Patsy as the one who inflicted the the blow to the head, as Patsy HAD to stay up late that night to pack and get ready for their early morning trip. Most likely JonBenet was up with Patsy. I don't believe that JR would risk molesting JB on a night with such activity. Burke awake and excited about his gifts, Patsy in a panic to get things together, plus with a busy day and an early morning rise, to me it just suggests the wrong sort of setting JR would need to risk this behavior, however, I have not rulled out JR previously molesting JB, but do lean towards more of a corporial type punishment, for the fact that JB was never penially penetrated. Could be it was leading to that, however Patsy is still my stonger connection to this sort of punishment, and would be the closed door type of punishement I would expect from a person like Patsy. Still I am now convinced of John's earlier involvement in this crime after listening to the 911 call, and he certainly was involved in the coverup. That makes me question WHY? what was his motive for doing so? Fear of losing everything or fear of being CAUGHT?

[Nedthan Johns]

Toltec: 7Kluz...I'm sorry to admit that every time I see your hat, I pronounce it 7 KLUTZ....tee hee! What exactly does your hat mean?


Ned: hahah LOL TOltec so did I until you pointed it out LOL

[Nedthan Johns]

Toltec:
Anyhoo...I believe that JonBenet was initially assaulted in her room because a paring knife was found on the counter outside of JonBenets room and cord fibers were found on her sheet. Was the cord cut on her bed? Possibly.

Ned: Agree Toltec. A panicked mother places her unconscious child on the bed, here perhaps is where JR comes in. I still can’t imagine with a skull fracture of that magnitude JR didn’t hear and come running.

Toltec: Patsy was in JAR's room packing for the trip to Orlando. I believe whatever happened that night started there. Perhaps JB went into JAR's room looking for Mommy and found her packing.

Ned: Also agree that is a likely scenario. Also points out the suitcase. Did anyone think that perhaps JR and Patsy placed JB in that suitcase to transport her to the basement JUST in case Burke was still awake and came out to see what was going on? Or perhaps they planned on transporting her and thought otherwise? How likely is it that JR and Patsy as conscious as they are about how they were dressed for JB’s funeral, are the type of people to pack their clothes in trash bags of all things? I believe the trash bags are a big red flag that points to the suitcase being used somehow in this crime. No one that I know of packs their clothes in trash bags.

Toltec: JonBenet tells Patsy that she soiled herself and so Patsy takes JonBenet to her toilet. Does that explain the soiled pants found on the bathroom floor...and the red turtleneck found balled up on the bathroom counter?

Ned: Sure does.

Toltec: Will explain the rest later...got to tend to the kids.

Ned: I look forward to reading your thoughts

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: The intruder undoubtedly took JonBenet from her bed while she was sleeping.

Ned: The intruder hehe ;)

He did not lure her in any fashion.

Ned: Guess we have no explaination for the pineapple and dirty feet

She is thought to have died where the urine was voided outside the room where she was found and near the paint tote.

Ned: I remember that, and since JB was re-dressed, what about the scenario that she was changed down in the basement and soiled panties were placed on the carpet? Or perhaps JB's suffering was so unbearable, or perhaps the parents thought she was already dead, the garrote wasn't pulled tight until she was placed in the basement? Depends on the amount of urine found on the carpet.


John Ramsey was not molesting JonBenet (or anyone else).
Neither John nor Patsy Ramsey got up during the night.
Patsy Ramsey was not in the JAR/Guest room that night.

Ned: Toth then why are did the experts hired by the BPD come to the conclusion after reviewing JB's autopsy photos that JB had been priorly molested before the night of her murder? What evidence was there that Patsy hadn't been in JAR's room that night? and please don't tell me it's because she told you so, seriously how do you know she wasn't in the room?

[Nedthan Johns]

Twlight:
Thing that strikes me is that Steve Thomas thinks it happened in her bathroom, and he has seen ALL the evidence.

Ned: Thomas also thinks JB wet the bed that night and this is what set patsy off.

Twlight: Funny, I don't recall L$mit ever discussing where he thinks it happened. Or the Ramseys...they don't discuss where they think it happened either. Just ST. Now that is something to think about.

Ned: Lou believes that JB was stunned gunned once to the face while she was sleeping in her bed, the intruder then carried her down to the room ( he must have closed the door behind him LOL, since Patsy said she threw it open the next morning) anyhow, he then believes that outside of the windowless room, near the boiler room, JB was garroted and molested, While this was occuring the JB woke screamed and was stunned gunned once again to the lower back. Perpetrator then cracked her in the skull and then hid the body. Even after the scream and hiding her body, he made his way back to the second floor to leave his novel on the spiral staircase. He even took the time to neatly lay it out :)

[Nedthan Johns]

Watching You: I think Myers knows the difference between fingernail gouges and petechia

Ned: I agree 100% Watching you.

JBR did not have flesh under her fingernails, which certainly would have been there if she had gouged the skin on her neck.

Ned: Absolutely true, not only that NONE of JB’s marks to her neck or what appears to be a nail mark to her lower leg were ever swabbed. Another HUGE mistake by the Coroner. Everyone has their OWN DNA under their nails. There were NO pieces of skin found under JB’s fingernails.
Also post mortem bodies swell, JB was dead for almost a full 24 hours before those photos were taken of her body. Perhaps more, since her body wasn’t removed from the home until 8pm that day. The rope “appears” to have been pulled tighter than it actually had been. Rigor mortis had also set in, setting the skin. Take a look at strangled victims and you will find the wounds are far worse then what we seen in JB’s photos.

Toth:
But there was no evidence of any such event taking place in the bathroom. No blood, no brain matter, no scalp material

Ned: LOL Toth. you know at times I think you could be Lou by your statements, but this one clearly tells me you are not. There was NO blood, brain matter nor scalp material found in the basement either. JB’s skull was not lacerated, meaning it was not an open wound. There would be NO blood, NO brain matter, nor NO scalp material anywhere in the house :rolleyes:

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: Even if no external bleeding, there was still no scalp material, no hair, no impact on the scalp that matched a surface in the bathroom... and your scenario would have them calmly sitting down after all this and concocting a note full of movie phrases instead of a simple short note.
Ned: Toth my dear, there was none found in the basement either. None found on the flashlight found at the crime scene, although it had been wiped clean of prints. The impact on the skull has yet to match anything found in the home that we know of, but a flat surface certainly hasn’t been ruled out. Due to the nature and severity of the fracture and to it’s location, it seems to me more likely the blow came to the front and right side of the head, therefore perhaps making it less likely she was bashed against the tile bathroom wall or hard cement floor, however, she could have been leaning over the bath to get her hair washed, there are many different scenarios that could still be possible. I have a problem with the way JB’s hair was fixed that night, wasn’t she wearing blue hair ties in her hair? 2 pony tails one on top of the other? This is where the Whites x mas photos taken that night come into play and are very important to answer how JB was dressed that evening. She was reported as wearing black velvet pants and a sequined star shirt. Then why the blue hair ties? Patsy is all about show and presence so I have a hard time believing that on Christmas when the Ramsey’s were having dinner with close friends with others present, that Patsy would allow JB to arrive “unmatched” .

Regarding the passages in the ransom note. The Ramsey’s had 5 plus hours to write it. Who said they were calm? The writing on the note is shaky. The person who wrote it had written a practice one before starting that one. Did they have a change of heart and decide not to address Patsy? Awfully caring intruder, even had time and heart to cover the child, and place out her favorite nightie, was even thoughtful enough to lay the ransom note out page by page to make it easier of the parents to read it that morning, not to mention making sure they practically stepped on it on their way down for their morning coffee. Hey they even latched the windowless room door, so Burke didn’t accidentally find his sister. Gee what a guy. He did everything but clean up their house. No wait a minute, he may have cleaned JB’s bowl after he fed her pineapple, LOL

[Nedthan Johns]

Toltec: Ned: Oh and by the way the quotes in the ransom note could have very easily be remembered by someone who had watched those movies, I for one remembered which movies they were from, when I read the note and they were pointed out.

The movie Ransom was a newly released film.

Toltec: John is called into the room and Patsy and John get into it. Patsy attempts to strike John with the flashlight and instead hits JonBenet. Then the cover-up starts.

Ned: Ahh that’s where you lost me Toltec. This was a direct blow to the skull, I can’t see how Patsy would be aiming for John and miss and hit JB. I do however believe that in the haste of the morning, JB most likely had not showered, and would have needed to bath before taking the long flight the next morning. With little time left to get ready in the morning, there may have been no other choice but to do it that night. With a strike that intense I believe it was a direct blow, and believe that if John was the intended victim, JB would have had to have been right in the line of fire. I don’t believe JB’s prior molestation was noticeable. Remember she had not been penially penetrated and even Dr. Bueff missed the signs of it and he admitted to examining her. I believe that INSIDE her vaginal walls there was clear signs she had been previously molested which included the recovery of an OLD splinter lodged in her vaginal wall.

[Nedthan Johns]

Toltec: JonBenet had a scalp contusion (bruise) that was as long as the fracture. Does anyone know if a contusion appears after a person is dead?
Ned: There is post mortem bruising however it has been said with the amount JB had that some experts came to the conclusion she was struck in the head FIRST. I too believe this is the most likely scenario, and a blow of that magnitude would certainly leave the child unconscious

I got an N64 that very same Christmas...and Super Mario 64 was the only game out there for this system. In the beginning of the game, Mario must fight a large Bomb which is tied with a chain around it's neck?
Ned: Interesting, Burke IMO can not be ruled out. But because of his age and frame, IMO makes a less likely suspect

[Nedthan Johns]

Ivy: the damage incurred by the Maglite looked just like the damage on JonBenet's skull. I've never forgotten seeing Spitz's demonstration on TV and how impressive it was. Ever since, I've been almost completely sure that JonBenet was struck by the Maglite. The rubber rim would have protected the skin.

Ned: This was on TV? What show and how did I miss it? The flashlight is interesting because it most certainly could point to Ramsey involvement since they owned one just like it and couldn’t find it. Was it left out on purpose or accidental? Someone took the time to wipe it clean of prints, but why leave the murder weapon in plain site? Perhaps because they thought it may not have been seen as such? And if it was the object used, why did Patsy or John chose to use one? I do have trouble with this one. The only possible scenario I can think of is that Patsy had retired to bed that night, but then that doesn’t explain her full makeup in the morning. JB wet the bed and Patsy using the flashlight went to get her up to change her. The flashlight is a real who dun it. Because it actually suggests an intruder IMO, not only because that is an object one would most likely bring to kidnap or molest a child, but because it may have been the only murder weapon besides the rope to kill her. Why he just didn’t strangle her, no one knows. If she screamed and he panicked a quick strike from that big of a flashlight could have done the job. But then why would an intruder take the time to clean the surface off and why wasn’t there any evidence found on the flashlight? Perhaps this is a piece of evidence that may yield clues as forensics science becomes more advanced.

[Nedthan Johns]

Why Nutt: Great read on Sybil. If anyone here is interested in a good movie, just rented "Identity" with John Cusak and Roy Loyotta this weekend, excellent movie, that relates to MPD, but don't want to give away the movie. Worth renting

[Watching you]

Toth

... and your scenario would have them calmly sitting down after all this and concocting a note full of movie phrases instead of a simple short note.


I don't know who ever said either of the Ramseys "calmly" sat down after killing their daughter and concocted a note. There is no way they calmly did anything. They would have been on an intense adrenaline rush, no doubt, but adrenaline rush does not necessarily mean loss of control or thought. The adrenaline rush is also known as "fight or flight" response, if I remember my terms correctly. Adrenaline pumps you up, gives you strength to do what you need to do. I would say the killer of JBR, and his/her accomplice, were quite capable of self-preservation that night and into the wee hours of the morning.

I have always believed Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note, but I do not believe she did it alone. I've pictured Patsy sitting at a counter with John pacing back and forth, the two of them in full collaberation in composing the note. The note is soooo Patsy, but after reading their book, DOI, I'm more convinced than ever that John contributed to the note. He's almost as big a drama queen as Patsy. The note, above all else, convinced me Patsy was involved. When she wrote it, she was hyped on adrenaline. She tried to disguise her handwriting, but the whole look of it is Patsy - the handwriting, the terms, the commas, the exclamation points. It's Patsy. It's so Patsy, her own mother claimed someone must have copied her handwriting when writing the note.

Short and simple? Patsy Ramsey? She is the queen of embellishment. Patsy always thinks more is better. Drama is her middle name. The ransom note was high drama to her and a dead giveaway as to its author.

[Imon128]

Agree, and once more, the need to save one's hiney would override the need to stay calm, IMO.

[7kluz]

Great job! However, I DO think that John was molesting JonBenét, or just beginning to when Patsy unexpectedly walked into the room to make a random check during her packing, maybe suspecting something, or just to simply get JonBenét up to potty.

She would have been furious, and may have had the Maglight in her hand so as to not have to turn on the lights after everyone else was (supposed to be) asleep... When she saw what was occuring, she may have swung the Maglight to hit John, missed and struck JonBenét.

Having known many people like Patsy, they would rather "cover it up" no matter what the cost or implications. JonBenét was already mortally wounded; why create a sex scandal at that point...?

That would explain the coldness toward each other before JonBenét's body was "found" by John. Incest is a very hard thing to deal with and who knows what a mother would do if she caught her child's father sexually abusing her child.

I believe that they then conspired (remember the "perfect life" Patsy wanted to portray) to NEVER snitch the other out and have stayed together, not out of love, but out of fear that one would betray the other if they didn't.

Edited to add -This Is Only My Opinion.

[Britt]

Originally posted by 7kluz
She... may have had the Maglight in her hand so as to not have to turn on the lights after everyone else was (supposed to be) asleep...
Exactly. The Maglite is easily explained. Patsy may have used it to see late at night when she went to check on JB. The light switch in JB's room did not operate the light.

Excerpt from former housekeeper Linda Wilcox's interview with Peter Boyles:

...you walk in the room and hit the switch, the light doesn't come on. See, cause when the room was redone, they put in a ceiling fan, one of the metal ones, without a light kit on it. The only light in her room was the lamp between the two beds. You have to physically walk over and turn it on. It isn't run by the switch. The switch was meant to run the overhead ceiling light which was removed to install the ceiling fan.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/07211998lindawilcoxon-pb.htm

[Ivy]

Ned, the TV program on which Dr. Werner Spitz demonstrated his Maglite experiment was aired at least 4 years ago, I think. FULTON said he saw it too. Maybe he will know the date and the channel it was on. (Do you, Fulton?)

I think BDI and that although John and Patsy found out from Burke he used it to light the way to the basement when he and JonBenet went down there to play after snacking on pineapple, John and Patsy may not have known that Burke had struck JonBenet on the head with the Maglite. After all, there was no outward indication that her skull had been fractured. Burke probably didn't admit to them he'd struck her. Why would he admit it if he thought that if he kept quiet about it, they'd never find out he'd done that to her too, in addition to everything else?

I think John and Patsy wiped the Maglite down (including the batteries) in hopes they could use the Maglite to show how the intruder managed to creep around in their darkened house. That's why, instead of hiding the Maglite, they set it on the counter, wanting LE to find it. They couldn't put intruder fingerprints on the Maglite, but they could wipe off Burke's and their own, leaving LE to believe the intruder had wiped it completely down.

[Toltec]

We know that the maglite is normally kept in a drawer from the wet-bar. How did it get from the drawer to the counter?

One could say John used it to check the plane that afternoon, but then John is Mr. Tidy and would have placed it back in the drawer.

The only reason I could think of is that the flashlight was used to write the RN. Remember the neighbor who reported "strange eerie lights" that night around midnight?

[eliza]

I agree Ivy, that BDI. I feel that John and Patsy in the cover-up that night ran around and cleaned up what they thought was everything at the crime scene, including the mag light which I do believe Burke hit her with. They had no choice but to leave it in plain sight in case LE was able to match it up to JBRs head wound. The one screw up in my book is the pineapple. Burke may never have told them they ate a couple of pieces of pineapple, which explains why the Ramseys neglected to add this little incident to their cover-up story.

[Imon128]

Yeah, 7kluz, I do agree that's highly likely. OR one of the two caught JAR. I vacillate on the two once in awhile, but nonetheless, I think one of the John Ramseys is responsible for JB dying. Even if it was the scenario that it was at Patsy's hand.

[SisterSocks]

I think Jon Benet died in the basement.

[Toltec]

The problem with the flashlight being used as lighting is that the Ramseys do leave some lights on at night. The light on the second floor landing, sconces on the stairwell, light in the den, etc...

I believe Patsy sat around the kitchen counter and used the flashlight to write the RN. I am beginning to believe that John helped Patsy concoct the note. There are some speech patterns I am picking up from reading the interrogation of John.

[Norma]

Well, I'll be the odd person out and state that I think the head wound was received in the sun room. Sitting up in the chair that's at an angle in the corner by the window; directly above the location of the room in the basement. The room where the light that is usually turned on was turned off...

And then after the hit she was initially taken and laid out by the tree in the living room and then something was planned to explain it.

I have absolutely no evidence to colaborate this. Only a gut feeling. And I feel the weapon was a #6 golf club.

[SisterSocks]

#6 golf club humm?

[TLynn]

JonBenet died facing down (from the urine stains on her longjohns). Rope fiber found in her bed; paring knife on washer/dryer in hallway where cupboard was open and diapers hanging out (was Burke's knife hidden behind it?)

JonBenet's bedroom curtain is askew and her blanket in the downstairs basement dryer.

Possible she walked downstairs barefoot in the basement with Patsy to retrieve the blanket.

JonBenet's bedroom is definitely part of the crime scene.

[SisterSocks]

Maybe but I don't think Patsy was the killer in the bedroom , I think the basement for death.

[Norma]

Originally posted by SisterSocks
#6 golf club humm?

Yeah - put an actual golf club up against the photo of the skull fracture. Then measure the club out and check the measurement dimentions of the fracture. The club will slide directly inside the hole. Oddly enough, even the pitch of the club on the #6 measures up to it.

[Nedthan Johns]

Britt: ...you walk in the room and hit the switch, the light doesn't come on. See, cause when the room was redone, they put in a ceiling fan, one of the metal ones, without a light kit on it. The only light in her room was the lamp between the two beds. You have to physically walk over and turn it on. It isn't run by the switch. The switch was meant to run the overhead ceiling light which was removed to install the ceiling fan.

Ned: Damn Britt you are sooooo good, and don't know why I waited until now to make the connection. Since JB was a bed wetter they HAD to have used a flashlight to get her up in the middle of the night. I have read that statement several times and never made the connection. Guess my ole fuse is burning out LOL Well well, looks like this flashlight plays more and more right into this crime.

[Nedthan Johns]

TLynn: (was Burke's knife hidden behind it?)

Ned: Burkes knife was found in the basement according to Lou

[Nedthan Johns]

Here's a thought I always wondered about the 2 knifes, perhaps Patsy or John began cutting the rope with the paring knife, finding it dull, they retrived Burkes from the cupboard and brought it down with them to the basement.

I wonder if the BPD ever checked the sharpness on the knifes, and I believe only Burke's knife yielded rope fibers, is that right?

[Nedthan Johns]

Ivy: John and Patsy may not have known that Burke had struck JonBenet on the head with the Maglite. After all, there was no outward indication that her skull had been fractured. Burke probably didn't admit to them he'd struck her. Why would he admit it if he thought that if he kept quiet about it, they'd never find out he'd done that to her too, in addition to everything else?

Ned: I have a hard time believing that any 9 year old child could inflict a skull fracture of that magnitude, therefore Burke is IMO the less likely suspect. To small to have done such a thing IMO.

Burkes question on the 911 call of "what did you find" clearly implies he had no idea of what was going on, when he woke that morning

[SisterSocks]

Originally posted by Pook
Yeah - put an actual golf club up against the photo of the skull fracture. Then measure the club out and check the measurement dimentions of the fracture. The club will slide directly inside the hole. Oddly enough, even the pitch of the club on the #6 measures up to it.

Everyone has a threory , happy to hear some of yours Pook whats the rest of it?

[SisterSocks]

Ned----- Burke wasn't on the 911 call.IMHO

[eliza]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Ivy: John and Patsy may not have known that Burke had struck JonBenet on the head with the Maglite. After all, there was no outward indication that her skull had been fractured. Burke probably didn't admit to them he'd struck her. Why would he admit it if he thought that if he kept quiet about it, they'd never find out he'd done that to her too, in addition to everything else?

Ned: I have a hard time believing that any 9 year old child could inflict a skull fracture of that magnitude, therefore Burke is IMO the less likely suspect. To small to have done such a thing IMO.

Burkes question on the 911 call of "what did you find" clearly implies he had no idea of what was going on, when he woke that morning

I have to disagree with you Ned when it comes to whether Burke was able to inflict the head wound. I think Burke was fully capable of delivering that blow, especially if he had been angry at the time. What Burke was incapable of doing is covering up the crime scene the way it was done. I feel the reason Burke asked "what did you find" is because he had no part in the plan to cover-up. I think the Ramseys sent him to his room and he was told to stay there until they came to get him. I feel when he hears his mother on the 911 call and talking about a ransom note I think he was truly confused. I think John was very angry when Burke suddenly appears, asking questions at a very crucial moment when he was told to stay in his room. This could be the reason John snaps at Burke at the very end of the 911 call.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Ivy: John and Patsy may not have known that Burke had struck JonBenet on the head with the Maglite. After all, there was no outward indication that her skull had been fractured. Burke probably didn't admit to them he'd struck her. Why would he admit it if he thought that if he kept quiet about it, they'd never find out he'd done that to her too, in addition to everything else?

Ned: I have a hard time believing that any 9 year old child could inflict a skull fracture of that magnitude, therefore Burke is IMO the less likely suspect. To small to have done such a thing IMO.

Burkes question on the 911 call of clearly implies he had no idea of what was going on, when he woke that morning

I agree!...
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0821jonn1.html

911 tape disputes Ramseys' story
Burke's voice is audible, contrary to parents' statement that he was in bed asleep when mom called

By KEVIN McCULLEN
Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer

Burke Ramsey was awake and asking questions as his mother phoned police to report the disappearance of his 6-year-old sister, JonBenet, officials familiar with the murder investigation said Thursday.

A digitally enhanced tape recording of Patsy Ramsey's early morning 911 call -- which includes Burke's voice, according to the officials -- appears to contradict statements by the Ramseys that Burke was asleep in bed at the time.

Patsy Ramsey didn't hang up the telephone after placing the 911 call at 5:51 a.m. on Dec. 26, 1996, allowing a few moments of conversation between the family to be recorded, the sources said.

Boulder police, who have never publicly released the 911 recording, took the tape to a California laboratory for a sound enhancement in April 1997.

John Ramsey and Burke Ramsey, then 10, can be heard on the tape, according to the officials.

The sources described this sequence:

Patsy Ramsey cries and screams, "Help me, Jesus, help me, Jesus," after setting the telephone down, apparently believing she had disconnected the call.

Another voice -- identified as Burke Ramsey's -- is heard in the background. John Ramsey says to him, "We weren't speaking to you."

Burke Ramsey replies, "But what did you find?"

Boulder police and the Boulder District Attorney's office would not comment Thursday.

But an attorney for John Ramsey blasted what he called the "vicious leak" of the 911 tape's contents. Hal Haddon said whoever revealed the information is guilty of "criminal misconduct" and should be indicted.

"This vicious leak is one more example of the pattern of official misconduct which has characterized this investigation for the past 19 months," he said in a written statement.

"Police sources leak what they claim is critical evidence and spin it against the Ramseys. The Ramseys are helpless to reply because they do not have access to the evidence.

"The situation is a disgrace to the criminal justice system, which appears powerless to prevent it."

The Ramseys insisted Burke Ramsey was asleep when Patsy Ramsey found the ransom note demanding $118,000 for JonBenet's return and when she dialed 911 to report her daughter missing, according to the officials familiar with the investigation.

The couple made that statement soon after their daughter's death, and again in July during 20 hours of separate interviews with investigators from the Boulder County District Attorney's office, according to the sources.

Police listed the enhanced 911 tape as one of the reasons to take the case to a grand jury during a two-day presentation of evidence in early June to District Attorney Alex Hunter and his assembled experts.

John and Patsy Ramsey have steadfastly denied involvement in their daughter's death. But Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner has said they continue under an "umbrella of suspicion."

Burke Ramsey was interviewed in Atlanta in July. Beckner had said police considered him an important witness in the case.

Attorneys not connected to the case had different perspectives on what the tape means.

"It's significant because if this contradicts the statements of John and Patsy and Burke Ramsey, you can reasonably conclude that there was a reason for them to mislead law enforcement officers," said Craig Silverman, a former Denver prosecutor now in private practice.

"It explains the 'umbrella of suspicion' that we've been hearing about, but it doesn't advance our knowledge as to what person did what," he said.

Defense attorney Scott Robinson questioned whether such a tape recording would be admissible in court. He said there is not a lot of case law on such a situation.

Even assuming the tape is valid, Robinson said he quickly could think of six or seven scenarios that would explain the snippet of dialog, with interpretations ranging "from the sinister to the sad and sympathetic."

Hunter's office will not disclose the starting date or location for the Boulder grand jury. But sources said the 16-member grand jury would be convened sometime after Labor Day.
(Kevin McCullen writes for Rocky Mountain News in Denver. Staff writer John Ensslin contributed to this report.)
P-NY-08-20-98 2314EDT
August 21, 1998

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by why_nutt
I agree that the initial injury occurred in her bedroom. In my opinion, the crime scene photo of JonBenet's bed paints a clear scenario. JonBenet's killer believed that a blow to the head simply renders a person unconscious, as demonstrated in such comedy movies as 1941 and Animal House and National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. In my theory, JonBenet's killer gently removed the pillow from under JonBenet's head (I believe JonBenet was sleeping on her left side/stomach, which left her head turned so that the right side of her head was up, the left side of her head being against the bed), then put it over her head with a left hand, and delivered the head blow through the pillow with a right hand. This scenario would allow for the pillow to cushion the blow enough to avoid scalp lacerations, but the pillow was also thin enough to let much of the force through without absorbing it. I believe that JonBenet's killer then lifted the pillow off JonBenet with a left hand and without thinking, put the pillow near the foot of the bed. At that point, we have exactly what the intruder theorists always want via use of a stun gun; a truly unconscious JonBenet, who will not cry out or struggle while her hair is torn from her scalp when the ligature is knotted around her neck.

I dispute whether certain neck marks are from fingernails, but let us say they were. I believe that if they are nail marks, they are from the person who tied the ligature, and represent an attempt to remove the cord, an attempt that was abandoned when the killer realized that too much bodily physical evidence was at risk of being left in the effort. After all, it would not look good the next day if, for example, Patsy's hands were examined and several broken nails were found on her hands, Why, how would an innocent mother who had done nothing more than sleep be able to explain that?

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Here's a thought I always wondered about the 2 knifes, perhaps Patsy or John began cutting the rope with the paring knife, finding it dull, they retrived Burkes from the cupboard and brought it down with them to the basement.

I wonder if the BPD ever checked the sharpness on the knifes, and I believe only Burke's knife yielded rope fibers, is that right?
911 tape disputes Ramseys' story Burke's voice is audible, contrary to parents' statement that he was in bed asleep when mom called
By KEVIN McCULLEN Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer

BOULDER, Colo. -- Burke Ramsey was awake and asking questions as his mother phoned police to report the disappearance of his 6-year-old sister, JonBenet, officials familiar with the murder investigation said Thursday.

A digitally enhanced tape recording of Patsy Ramsey's early morning 911 call -- which includes Burke's voice, according to the officials -- appears to contradict statements by the Ramseys that Burke was asleep in bed at the time.

Patsy Ramsey didn't hang up the telephone after placing the 911 call at 5:51 a.m. on Dec. 26, 1996, allowing a few moments of conversation between the family to be recorded, the sources said.

Boulder police, who have never publicly released the 911 recording, took the tape to a California laboratory for a sound enhancement in April 1997.

John Ramsey and Burke Ramsey, then 10, can be heard on the tape, according to the officials.

The sources described this sequence:

Patsy Ramsey cries and screams, "Help me, Jesus, help me, Jesus," after setting the telephone down, apparently believing she had disconnected the call.

Another voice -- identified as Burke Ramsey's -- is heard in the background. John Ramsey says to him, "We weren't speaking to you."

Burke Ramsey replies, "But what did you find?"

Boulder police and the Boulder District Attorney's office would not comment Thursday.

But an attorney for John Ramsey blasted what he called the "vicious leak" of the 911 tape's contents. Hal Haddon said whoever revealed the information is guilty of "criminal misconduct" and should be indicted.

"This vicious leak is one more example of the pattern of official misconduct which has characterized this investigation for the past 19 months," he said in a written statement.

"Police sources leak what they claim is critical evidence and spin it against the Ramseys. The Ramseys are helpless to reply because they do not have access to the evidence.

"The situation is a disgrace to the criminal justice system, which appears powerless to prevent it."

The Ramseys insisted Burke Ramsey was asleep when Patsy Ramsey found the ransom note demanding $118,000 for JonBenet's return and when she dialed 911 to report her daughter missing, according to the officials familiar with the investigation.

The couple made that statement soon after their daughter's death, and again in July during 20 hours of separate interviews with investigators from the Boulder County District Attorney's office, according to the sources.

Police listed the enhanced 911 tape as one of the reasons to take the case to a grand jury during a two-day presentation of evidence in early June to District Attorney Alex Hunter and his assembled experts.

John and Patsy Ramsey have steadfastly denied involvement in their daughter's death. But Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner has said they continue under an "umbrella of suspicion."

Burke Ramsey was interviewed in Atlanta in July. Beckner had said police considered him an important witness in the case.

Attorneys not connected to the case had different perspectives on what the tape means.

"It's significant because if this contradicts the statements of John and Patsy and Burke Ramsey, you can reasonably conclude that there was a reason for them to mislead law enforcement officers," said Craig Silverman, a former Denver prosecutor now in private practice.

"It explains the 'umbrella of suspicion' that we've been hearing about, but it doesn't advance our knowledge as to what person did what," he said.

Defense attorney Scott Robinson questioned whether such a tape recording would be admissible in court. He said there is not a lot of case law on such a situation.

Even assuming the tape is valid, Robinson said he quickly could think of six or seven scenarios that would explain the snippet of dialog, with interpretations ranging "from the sinister to the sad and sympathetic."

Hunter's office will not disclose the starting date or location for the Boulder grand jury. But sources said the 16-member grand jury would be convened sometime after Labor Day.
(Kevin McCullen writes for Rocky Mountain News in Denver. Staff writer John Ensslin contributed to this report.)
AP-NY-08-20-98 2314EDT
August 21, 1998
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0821jonn1.html

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by eliza
I have to disagree with you Ned when it comes to whether Burke was able to inflict the head wound. I think Burke was fully capable of delivering that blow, especially if he had been angry at the time. What Burke was incapable of doing is covering up the crime scene the way it was done. I feel the reason Burke asked "what did you find" is because he had no part in the plan to cover-up. I think the Ramseys sent him to his room and he was told to stay there until they came to get him. I feel when he hears his mother on the 911 call and talking about a ransom note I think he was truly confused. I think John was very angry when Burke suddenly appears, asking questions at a very crucial moment when he was told to stay in his room. This could be the reason John snaps at Burke at the very end of the 911 call.

Ok...but Patsy said "the KILLER WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE...right???"; so now what does that mean???; FYI
below/very compelling INFO from R's...!!!~~~...don't ya think?

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/note/

Who Murdered JonBenét Ramsey? To answer that question, perhaps it's best to listen to John and Patsy Ramsey, the parents of the victim:

LARRY KING: "So you agree that whoever authored the ransom note probably killed the child?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "I agree."

PATSY RAMSEY: "I would agree with that."

(Source: the Larry King Live show - May 31, 2000 - CNN cable channel)

Who Wrote Ransom Note? :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:

o.m.g...now what???...!~!!~~~
:eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused: :confused: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D :D :o :o :( :( :( :) :) :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ivy]

Blaze... Patsy has lied many times during the investigation. What makes you think that her saying the killer wrote the note wasn't a lie as well? Why, after lying and lying and lying, would she tell the truth about something so significant to the case, something that could implicate her as the killer? I don't believe for a minute that she would. Anyway, why would she find it necessary in the first place to say the killer wrote the note? If an intruder killed JonBenet, wouldn't it be a no-brainer to assume he wrote the note?

I am convinced that Burke killed JonBenet, and that John and Patsy sent him to his room and then staged the coverup. Patsy wrote the note, but she is not the killer.

[Shawna]

OMG There are e mail documents on the Cassiopaea site. An employee who worked for another Boulder CEO Jirka Resavy said he was fired for talking about the Jonbenet Ramsey case :eek:




http://www.cassiopaea.com/archive/wiley3.htm

[Shylock]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Ned: I have a hard time believing that any 9 year old child could inflict a skull fracture of that magnitude, therefore Burke is IMO the less likely suspect. To small to have done such a thing IMO. First Ned, Burke was 3 weeks from turning 10 years old. And second, I guess you never had a son in Little League baseball or you would know differently.

Besides the flashlight, there was a baseball bat found at the crime scene. Any normal 9 or 10 year old boy could swing it hard enough to crack the skull of a 6 year old little girl.

And finally, if Burke was asking "what did you find" on the 911 call it was probably because he couldn't understand what the ransom note was all about. He wouldn't have been present when the note was written and the majority of the staging took place to cover up his actions.

[Nehemiah]

Ned, I agree that I don't think Patsy would have mismatched JB's hair decor, especially on such an important day as Christmas, when everyone is dressed up.

Maybe she did, or maybe not...According to the maketoast site, these items were removed from the body:

# black/white/red hairtie
# blue hairtie
# a third hairtie

So, JB did have a matching hairtie (black/white/red). Perhaps the blue and "third" hairtie were elastic bands that were under the hairties? Would someone such as the coroner characterize "hairtie" and "elastic band" as both being hairties? I just don't know but that did catch my eye.

I am a mom of boys so have never dealt with hair decorations but I do know that they match the clothing.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Pook
Yeah - put an actual golf club up against the photo of the skull fracture. Then measure the club out and check the measurement dimentions of the fracture. The club will slide directly inside the hole. Oddly enough, even the pitch of the club on the #6 measures up to it.

Maybe this is why(the reason) John had to have his golf clubs retrieved by sister-in-law Pam...ya think?

04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"

Page 48:

"That evening John went to Crist Mortuary to discuss funeral arrangements. In addition to the usual rites, transportation was needed for burial to Atlanta. Patsy awoke while he was gone and staggered from the bedroom to a couch, bearely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteen Street.

John was overhead to ask somebody quietly, "Did you get my golf bag?"

When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order.

There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted.

Neither bag was collected by police

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Ivy: John and Patsy may not have known that Burke had struck JonBenet on the head with the Maglite. After all, there was no outward indication that her skull had been fractured. Burke probably didn't admit to them he'd struck her. Why would he admit it if he thought that if he kept quiet about it, they'd never find out he'd done that to her too, in addition to everything else?

Ned: I have a hard time believing that any 9 year old child could inflict a skull fracture of that magnitude, therefore Burke is IMO the less likely suspect. To small to have done such a thing IMO.

Burkes question on the 911 call of "what did you find" clearly implies he had no idea of what was going on, when he woke that morning

Ditto; Burke IMHO is (thePatsy?) faking-it-to-make-it-to-stay-alive for now until he can come up with a solution(plan) to get/bring JUSTICE FOR JONBENET...IMHO, he will be the one to move/go forward with this!:)

http://crime.about.com/library/weekly/aa101600b.htm
Burke's doodles... Have you compared those to patients --

crimeADM :young boys -- who have said that they drew similar things and they were sexual in nature?

Have looked at a lot of Kid's drawings. Kids like all people Hodges are very aware and deep down know about sexual matters from day one almost..

crimeADM Do you feel Burke is in danger? Probably not. Ramseys despite their deceit are Christians in their own way and very concerned about next world. They need

Hodges:
Burke to "justify" their cover-up and Im convinced feel God has already forgiven them for continuing to lie because they are protecting Burke. They are sadly mistaken now. Burke's doodles were done after the murder. Wouldn't they

crimeADM: indicate more his thoughts about the murder than anything before?

Hodges: Yes, which is what I showed they did in my book. When your sister is murdered in your household you are constantly terrified. He is in incredible pain and needs the truth.

Only that will save him or he will spend his whole life defending
his parents when he knows the truth deep down.

crimeADM Did Steve Thomas work with you on the book at all?

Hodges Not at all. We spoke after the book.

crimeADM So you believe Burke has firsthand knowledge of the murder and is afraid -- or is otherwise unable -- to discuss it?

Hodges: As studies show there are really no secrets in families. Deep down kids know everything only they don't know they do but find ways of telling you. Recall how JonBenet told the gardener "Do roses know their thorns hurt"--decode that idea and you see she's telling you about abuse.

...for more pull above URL and read on...

[Toltec]

Christmas letter 1995....Burke is taking sailing lessons in Charlevoix; he is beginning to be "quite the sailor!".

Christmas letter 1996..."Burke's little league team was #1."

Burke can swing a bat and Burke can tie knots.

[Toth]

You can say he was on the verge of becoming a ten year old solo circumnavigator of the world who was expert in knot tying and bat swinging all you want; he was asleep the entire night.
The dna is not his.
The note is not his.
The voice on the 911 tape is non-existent.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by Toth

he was asleep the entire night.
If he was up all night dancing a jig, YOU wouldn't know it, Toth.

The dna is not his.
True. But the DNA appears to not be from ANYBODY. No source. No way of telling if it's even related to the crime. No way to tell if it's only contamination.

The note is not his.
That's obvious. Wasn't Patsy a good Mom to write it for him!

The voice on the 911 tape is non-existent.
This is still an unknown. However, the recently released CD recording of the 911 tape has Patsy's voice on it just as Thomas documented. Therefore there is no reason to doubt that Burke is also on it.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Toth
You can say he was on the verge of becoming a ten year old solo circumnavigator of the world who was expert in knot tying and bat swinging all you want; he was asleep the entire night.
The dna is not his.
The note is not his.
The voice on the 911 tape is non-existent.

I agree. IMHO Burke was "pretending to be asleep to stay alive!"; let's go to the source of Burke info in Xmas ltrs... it's a Patsy thought/thing about Burke (for whatever/unknown reason) IMHO!:(:confused: :dontknow:

[ajt400]

Originally posted by Pook
Yeah - put an actual golf club up against the photo of the skull fracture. Then measure the club out and check the measurement dimentions of the fracture. The club will slide directly inside the hole. Oddly enough, even the pitch of the club on the #6 measures up to it.


If one cannot make the assumption, or even eduacated guess as to whther or not a stun gun could or could not have been used int he murder with nothing but a photo---then the same has to be said of the golf club.

[SisterSocks]

I think the dirty deed happened in basement where the scream was heard by neighbor...

[Toltec]

While Burke is capable of striking JonBenet and tying knots, I do not believe he is responsible for his sisters death. I do believe however; that he is responsible for molesting JonBenet. He and JonBenet played Doctor which angered Patsy...and Patsy being Patsy blamed JonBenet. My belief is that Patsy struck JonBenet and staged a kidnapping. Contrary to popular belief, I do not believe Patsy tied the garrote tightly. Her body swelled and the cord became embedded in her neck.

This is my opinion which cannot be snuck over to yonder forum.