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WhyaDuck?
11-17-2010, 12:24 PM
Thank You for letting me know he is off limits, I did not no this.

A good way to think about all those policies is - say you and I become PM friends on WS, and then I go and kill someone, would you like to be sleuthed for that? So WS tries not to expose for the sake of exposing until we have some official reason why someone is to be considered a "player." So use that as the standard.

And thanks to all the posters who ask these questions and those who help guide each other along. Much appreciated!

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 12:28 PM
*Note to self, don't PM Ducky.

Kamille
11-17-2010, 12:29 PM
*Note to self, don't PM Ducky.

:floorlaugh:

DMBKelly
11-17-2010, 12:36 PM
It is so frustrating just like with Casey, if someone murdered my child I wouldn't sit still until I KNEW who did it and why. Adam Baker seems so detached and uninterested about WHO killed his child in that interview. FAKE! :Justice:

WhyaDuck?
11-17-2010, 12:37 PM
*Note to self, don't PM Ducky.

Wasn't me, I swear. :whistle:

free2ride
11-17-2010, 12:40 PM
In the interview given by AB & his mother - the one that last only 2 minutes.

I heard something the mother said that struck me as odd. It happens at the time clock at 1:52.

The mother states (as I hear it), "it's really hard to listen to people call him murders and a child abusers". Is the "s" added only as a language thing, as a lisp or a slip of the tongue intended to include EB too?

Just curious if anyone else noticed it and what they thought.

WBTV Adam Baker interview (http://www.wbtv.com/global/category.asp?c=195957&clipId=5300885&autostart=true)

ynotdivein
11-17-2010, 01:08 PM
In the interview given by AB & his mother - the one that last only 2 minutes.

I heard something the mother said that struck me as odd. It happens at the time clock at 1:52.

The mother states (as I hear it), "it's really hard to listen to people call him murders and a child abusers". Is the "s" added only as a language thing, as a lisp or a slip of the tongue intended to include EB too?

Just curious if anyone else noticed it and what they thought.

WBTV Adam Baker interview (http://www.wbtv.com/global/category.asp?c=195957&clipId=5300885&autostart=true)

I think she's saying "them" rather than "him"... in other words, including EB...

epiphany
11-17-2010, 01:13 PM
Could be wrong, but I hear mother say:

it's really hard to listen to people call him murderous and then child abuser, but people don't know.

FWIW, she appears grief-stricken to me.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 01:14 PM
I respectfully have to disagree with you there. Plenty of people with major drug addictions walk around, work and function all the while looking pretty normal. I think there was more then pot being smoked. I'm thinking prescription pills and maybe more harder drugs.

What I meant to indicate was that if AB was doing hard drugs ... he stopped when LE started watching him. We would notice significant changes in his physical appearance coming off of something hard that abruptly.

As I think we DID see with EB.

epiphany
11-17-2010, 01:23 PM
Updated Video!!
6 plus minutes of Adam:

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13515299

WhyaDuck?
11-17-2010, 01:36 PM
Updated Video!!
6 plus minutes of Adam:

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13515299

Wow! Nice find!

Please post this to the media reports sticky thread, as well, if no one has.

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 01:38 PM
Well I watched it. I really want to believe him, but I can't.

Blue Ridge
11-17-2010, 01:39 PM
Updated Video!!
6 plus minutes of Adam:

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13515299

Wow. Much better than the one this morning.

I may be in the minority around here, but I found AB totally believable in this interview. He looks directly at the interviewer and he shows a lot of emotion about Zahra IMO.

Wow.

epiphany
11-17-2010, 01:43 PM
Well I watched it. I really want to believe him, but I can't.

I hear you...not planted on first rung of fence yet, but am considering.

epiphany
11-17-2010, 01:44 PM
Not saying that he's not involved, but damn, he done good!

NancyA
11-17-2010, 01:44 PM
Well I watched it. I really want to believe him, but I can't.

Me too.

Wise Old Owl
11-17-2010, 01:46 PM
Well I watched it. I really want to believe him, but I can't.
I can't. I don't. I see contempt, disgust, a little fear (especially when he talks about "Tom" - Tom Adkins Hickory Police Chief). Funny how he worded his response when talking about "finding who's responsible".

He didn't want to do this interview. He was annoyed by it. Notice when he's asked about EB and her involvement he looks over - to his left - probably at his attorney for clues, assistance of what to say.

This is simply his attorney's attempt at posturing. Whether AB has told his attorney everything or what happened doesn't matter. BTW MOST defense attorneys don't want to know if you did it and will tell you not to tell them anything. But, his attorney knows AB is going to go down for SOMETHING - even if it is just simply "child neglect" - like they first charged ICA with.

When oh when are they going to get those lab results back?

ynotdivein
11-17-2010, 01:46 PM
Noted that he looked over to his lawyer when asked about EB's involvement. Sort of a "can I answer this one" glance?

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 01:48 PM
I see a father that loved his daughter, and I see guilt and remorse. But I also see it being more for what may happen to him. I've never doubted AB loved Zahra, I just think it was an after thought. Maybe so much of his life had been dedicated to taking care of her, that he found freedom from that when he got here with EB. Maybe none of this would have ever happened had it not been for the two of them meeting, but it did. And whatever "it" was it spiraled out of control and Zahra died and the two of them chopped her up and disposed of her. He may honestly regret that now...but it's too late.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 01:50 PM
Noted that he looked over to his lawyer when asked about EB's involvement. Sort of a "can I answer this one" glance?

Yes I picked up on that too. My guess is that guilty or innocent he's pretty PO'ed at her right now. The interviewer also backtracks a little so the lawyer must have signaled that he didn't want that line of questioning.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 01:53 PM
I think he's lying through his teeth. But, that's just me.

WhyaDuck?
11-17-2010, 01:54 PM
If anyone finds or makes a transcript of the additional material, I would be happy to copy it over to the interview thread.

Blue Ridge
11-17-2010, 01:56 PM
Noted that he looked over to his lawyer when asked about EB's involvement. Sort of a "can I answer this one" glance?

Yep.. but then I would expect that....his atty is there for that reason I'd think...to advise him on answering questions of that sort. He hedged the question a bit....which again I would expect, given the situation...

Wise Old Owl
11-17-2010, 01:56 PM
I disagree teh. He (probably) always had his freedom. In Oz you can bet that KB took full charge of Zahra. From the basics of feeding, clothing and housing - down to the "kiss the boo-boos" and time schedules for meds and dr. appts. = EVERYTHING. AB went to work, came home and was "doting father", got to do some of the "fun stuff" - the playing, maybe reading bedtime stories, watching/playing TV and video games. But he was only a peripheral player in the caring for her - especially the medical. I'll bet he never attended a physicians/hospital consultation about Zahra and her cancer and care without KB sitting right there next to him. And she probably asked more questions.

When he came here, he just unconciously expected for EB to pick up where KB left off. What he didn't see (or bank on) was that EB had absolutely no emotional attachment to Zahra - nor did she want one. Zahra to EB was a burden and it pi$$ed her off. So much so that she beat her to death.

AB loved her - in his own unique way. But once she was gone - his survival instincts kicked in and he did what HE THOUGHT he had to do to keep his said freedom.

Nana46
11-17-2010, 02:00 PM
The video stopping and starting is maddening....hard to gauge anything watching it that way.IMO:furious:

Blue Ridge
11-17-2010, 02:02 PM
I think he's lying through his teeth. But, that's just me.

Maybe I'm just really gullible :-(

OK. Telling myself do not forget the 911 call... or the disposal of the mattress...or the fact that painting/covering up in the house would have taken days...or that Z was not in school this year....

Belinda
11-17-2010, 02:02 PM
When it comes down to brass tacks, I just find it impossible to believe that someone could be that completely and utterly stupid as to not notice all these things going on around him. It just defies common sense. I don't think he took part in the physical abuse, but I believe with my whole heart that he knew about it, watched it and did nothing to stop it. I also believe he was completely involved in the disposal of her body.

dar107
11-17-2010, 02:18 PM
I see a man full of regret and fear who likely wishes he could go back in time and put the welfare of his daughter on his list of priorities. Too little, too late again for me.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 02:20 PM
Maybe I'm just really gullible :-(

OK. Telling myself do not forget the 911 call... or the disposal of the mattress...or the fact that painting/covering up in the house would have taken days...or that Z was not in school this year....

You're not gullible, Mommy2. I think ALOT of us have to remind ourselves of ALOT of things in this case. I know I sure do.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 02:23 PM
What did you think of everything that they did tonight?
"I thought it was really ...very nice. Very appropriate."
Now, you wanted to be there?
"Yeah.... I would have liked to have gone but I didn't want everybody to take their focus off of Zahra. Which, everyone needs to get some kind of closure."
Have you experienced where people have yelled at you and
"Yeah"
Said things...What have you heard? What have people said?
"That I'm a child abuser ... murderer."
People have called you a murderer?
"Yeah"
What do you say to them?
"Everybody has their own opinion. There is no way in the world I would hurt my daughter."
So people need to know you didn't do this ?
"No (chokes up) There is no way I could do that to my baby."
You didn't dismember her?
"No...... NO."
(shows video of vigil)
What did it mean to you? The fact that they did this?
"It meant the world to me. Especially Tom speaking. I've had a lot of time with Tom and he's very down to earth, speaks from the heart. He pretty much summed up Zahra."
Where do you think it goes from here? I mean, there's alot ... what do you guys ..do you want to at some point go back to Australia? or do yo uwant to make your life here? Somewhere in the United States?
"Umm I think I'm gonna go back to Australia. I have a family here but most of my family and Zahra's family is in Australia."
Do you want to take Zahra back with you?
"Yeah."
Do you think that's where she deserves to be or what to you think?
"I think that's where she would want to be. She has a lot of friends and family in Australia. They need her to be home."
Your over all thoughts? It's been a difficult day... but for the people that were out there today that were there to remember Zahra, what would you say to them ?
"I'd like to thank everybody for coming to the vigil. Thank the organizers, hickory police and all the other law enforcement agencies and the community for everything they have done for Zahra."
This has been a tough tough thing. You haven't really been able to say what you want to say, have you?
"No.It's been very hard to try and grieve for my daughter with everything that is going on. It's been very hard doing stuff without being looking at you. Yelling things."
Saying things to you?
"Yeah."
Calling you murderer?
"Yeah."
But you've got a positive outlook. Things are going to work you, do you believe?
"I just hope that the police get all the evidence they need to get the right result and justice for Zahra."
What is the right result?
"That whoever they find guilty of this ..."
Do you think Elisa was involved ?
(Looks to lawyer) "I haven't been given a whole lot of details of what's been going on"
Interviewer over speaking (Okay.... alright ...)
Overall thoughts ? We had the vigil tonight ... but this doesn't end .. I mean your still ... this doesn't end the grieving process...
"No. "
Your still hurting. Will the hurt ever go away do you think ?
"No .. there's uh... (phone ringing).... "
Will the hurt ever go away?
"No. There's no possible way to ever fill the hole left by my daughter. (choked up)"

Interviewer speaks with Karen Baker.

Pondering Mind
11-17-2010, 02:27 PM
I think he's lying through his teeth. But, that's just me.

Me too girl..I ain't feeling nothing sincere about that interview so far..Damage control imho..pure and simple..Maybe I'm just jaded..but I'm of the mind that he is quite cold and calculating, much more so than his appearance of coming off as somewhat slow would suggest he could be. I wish I felt differently, but I just don't..:(

Pondering Mind
11-17-2010, 02:33 PM
I see a man full of regret and fear who likely wishes he could go back in time and put the welfare of his daughter on his list of priorities. Too little, too late again for me.

See, I don't see or hear any regret..granted we haven't seen the entire interview..and I sure wish they would post it all at one time, but we know they won't..:banghead:..I wish that I could hear him say something like 'I wish we had never left Oz' or 'If only I could have protected her'...maybe even I blame myself for not checking on her earlier on the night of the supposed *kidnapping*..but nada..nothing like that from him..<moo..fwiw..

rbrnmw2
11-17-2010, 02:36 PM
*Note to self, don't PM Ducky.
thanks teh love your humor it always gives me a lift

Pondering Mind
11-17-2010, 02:40 PM
This exchange even disturbs me..

What did you think of everything that they did tonight?
"I thought it was really ...very nice. Very appropriate."

To our Aussie members..before I pounce on something that may mean nothing..is that how a question like this would be answered? I guess I'm trying to figure out the difference in how language would be used here vs there..

Adam doesn't say that the memorial was heartwarming, comforting, etc...he says it was appropriate? Am I crazy?

Belinda
11-17-2010, 02:44 PM
PM - I found that totally creepy too. What an odd choice of a word to use for the memorial. There are a thousand other words I would have used to describe the wonderful gatherings done in Zahra's honor. Appropriate wouldn't be one of them.

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 02:52 PM
He would only to say that police aren't telling him much, but he thinks they are closer to learning the truth.

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13515299

You know that's funny, in a funny strange sort of way. I have noticed when a parent of a missing child is not considered a suspect and not being treated as such, they say something along the lines of "The police have asked us not to discuss the case", or something or other like that. When the parent IS considered a suspect, they always say exactly what AB did, "They aren't telling me much".

Pondering Mind
11-17-2010, 02:59 PM
PM - I found that totally creepy too. What an odd choice of a word to use for the memorial. There are a thousand other words I would have used to describe the wonderful gatherings done in Zahra's honor. Appropriate wouldn't be one of them.

That's just part of the reason it did not feel like it was 'from the heart' imo. I felt like he was struggling to come up with *appropriate* answers..

WhyaDuck?
11-17-2010, 03:02 PM
This exchange even disturbs me..

What did you think of everything that they did tonight?
"I thought it was really ...very nice. Very appropriate."

To our Aussie members..before I pounce on something that may mean nothing..is that how a question like this would be answered? I guess I'm trying to figure out the difference in how language would be used here vs there..

Adam doesn't say that the memorial was heartwarming, comforting, etc...he says it was appropriate? Am I crazy?

I'm not Aussie, but Canadian, and I didn't find anything odd about the word "appropriate" there - it might be a word I would use to praise a solemn function. Just FWIW, it didn't strike me as odd.

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 03:03 PM
What I felt wasn't appropriate AT ALL was the way his mother beamed at him when the reporter said "he's your baby boy" or whatever the exact words were. This is not the time to be proud of him.............

bellyup
11-17-2010, 03:05 PM
This exchange even disturbs me..

What did you think of everything that they did tonight?
"I thought it was really ...very nice. Very appropriate."

To our Aussie members..before I pounce on something that may mean nothing..is that how a question like this would be answered? I guess I'm trying to figure out the difference in how language would be used here vs there..

Adam doesn't say that the memorial was heartwarming, comforting, etc...he says it was appropriate? Am I crazy?

My husband would use those terms. I don't think he even knows words like heartwarming, comforting, endearing, warm, touching etc. He just doesn't use "feminine" adjectives.

Wise Old Owl
11-17-2010, 03:07 PM
But you've got a positive outlook. Things are going to work you, do you believe?
"I just hope that the police get all the evidence they need to get the right result and justice for Zahra."

What is the right result?
"That whoever they find guilty of this ..."

above snipped from posted transcription


get all the evidence they need to get the right result. Say what? And what "right result" would that be?

Funny he (nor KB) ever said anything about finding ALL of Zahra - wanting to lay her rest rest - fully. Yet he still hopes LE gets ALL the evidence.

Strange, very strange answer right there that is.

vjlaw
11-17-2010, 03:08 PM
What I felt wasn't appropriate AT ALL was the way his mother beamed at him when the reporter said "he's your baby boy" or whatever the exact words were. This is not the time to be proud of him.............

Yeh, instead of constantly rubbing his back, she should have smacked him in the back of head. kwim

catnron
11-17-2010, 03:08 PM
A good way to think about all those policies is - say you and I become PM friends on WS, and then I go and kill someone, would you like to be sleuthed for that? So WS tries not to expose for the sake of exposing until we have some official reason why someone is to be considered a "player." So use that as the standard.

And thanks to all the posters who ask these questions and those who help guide each other along. Much appreciated!
Great advice and will I will remember this. Again Thanks

Blue Ridge
11-17-2010, 03:09 PM
What I felt wasn't appropriate AT ALL was the way his mother beamed at him when the reporter said "he's your baby boy" or whatever the exact words were. This is not the time to be proud of him.............

I totally agree! She really was utterly BEAMING... :waitasec:

bellyup
11-17-2010, 03:10 PM
But you've got a positive outlook. Things are going to work you, do you believe?
"I just hope that the police get all the evidence they need to get the right result and justice for Zahra."

What is the right result?
"That whoever they find guilty of this ..."

above snipped from posted transcription

get all the evidence they need to get the right result. Say what? And what "right result" would that be?

Funny he (nor KB) ever said anything about finding ALL of Zahra - wanting to lay her rest rest - fully. Yet he still hopes LE gets ALL the evidence.

Strange, very strange answer right there that is.

The interviewer interrupted him right there asking about Elisa ... I think had the interviewer waited for him to finish we may have heard the end of "That whoever they find guilty of this ..... " but the interviewer had to jump in with Elisa stuff and the attorney cut it off right there.

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 03:11 PM
But you've got a positive outlook. Things are going to work you, do you believe?
"I just hope that the police get all the evidence they need to get the right result and justice for Zahra."

What is the right result?
"That whoever they find guilty of this ..."

above snipped from posted transcription


get all the evidence they need to get the right result. Say what? And what "right result" would that be?

Funny he (nor KB) ever said anything about finding ALL of Zahra - wanting to lay her rest rest - fully. Yet he still hopes LE gets ALL the evidence.

Strange, very strange answer right there that is.

The right result would be "I hope they hang this whole this on EB and realize I'm just deaf, dumb and blind and didn't know any of this and just let me go homeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee."

bellyup
11-17-2010, 03:13 PM
I totally agree! She really was utterly BEAMING... :waitasec:

I thought it was a rather strange response myself .... but the interviewer kinda led her into it "he's your baby boy ..... "
I'm not sure what response she could have given that would have been appropriate. Had she not smiled and had instead just nodded many would have taken it to mean she wasn't so sure about the baby boy comment ... or that she was upset with him ? She seems like the OVERLY NURTURING mother/grandmother. Not that it's a bad thing .... just how she is.

Wise Old Owl
11-17-2010, 03:14 PM
The interviewer interrupted him right there asking about Elisa ... I think had the interviewer waited for him to finish we may have heard the end of "That whoever they find guilty of this ..... " but the interviewer had to jump in with Elisa stuff and the attorney cut it off right there.
Ok - but what he said before that - "get the right result". Man, how many greiving, hurting mothers and father have we seen on here that always say "we'll get YOU for this" or "this monster has to be caught" or "whoever is responsible for taking my daughter will pay". But never have I ever heard - "hope the police get all the evidence they need to get the right result". Its like he's talking about a science experiment.

Just a very "unusual" answer to a question we have all seen many others answer differently.

NoeticSoul
11-17-2010, 03:15 PM
What is the right result?
"That whoever they find guilty of this ..."
Do you think Elisa was involved ?
(Looks to lawyer) "I haven't been given a whole lot of details of what's been going on"

At the very LEAST.. how could he possibly NOT know if EB had anything to do with this? Is that what YOU would be saying? I think not, given all that is now known about her death. Surely, his wife would never intentionally deceive him or ask that he not believe his own eyes.. Refill on that kool aid, AB?

Player PAHLEASE ...

</rant>

epiphany
11-17-2010, 03:16 PM
This exchange even disturbs me..

What did you think of everything that they did tonight?
"I thought it was really ...very nice. Very appropriate."

To our Aussie members..before I pounce on something that may mean nothing..is that how a question like this would be answered? I guess I'm trying to figure out the difference in how language would be used here vs there..

Adam doesn't say that the memorial was heartwarming, comforting, etc...he says it was appropriate? Am I crazy?

I think the attorney probably provided him with a list of neutral words to use in his responses-very nice, appropriate, etc. knowing that every word he uttered during the interview would be examined.

However, Adam blew it with "fill the hole she left," instead of something like---an empty space in my heart, a hole in my heart etc.

Pondering Mind
11-17-2010, 03:17 PM
But you've got a positive outlook. Things are going to work you, do you believe?
"I just hope that the police get all the evidence they need to get the right result and justice for Zahra."

What is the right result?
"That whoever they find guilty of this ..."

above snipped from posted transcription


get all the evidence they need to get the right result. Say what? And what "right result" would that be?

Funny he (nor KB) ever said anything about finding ALL of Zahra - wanting to lay her rest rest - fully. Yet he still hopes LE gets ALL the evidence.

Strange, very strange answer right there that is.

bbm~
The result that doesn't include him..duh..:)

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 03:18 PM
Adam Baker: Yeah. I would have liked to have gone, but I didn't want everybody to, uh, take their focus off Zahra, which, everybody needs to get some kind of closure.


That stuck out to me too. Don't know why exactly but it did.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 03:19 PM
Ok - but what he said before that - "get the right result". Man, how many greiving, hurting mothers and father have we seen on here that always say "we'll get YOU for this" or "this monster has to be caught" or "whoever is responsible for taking my daughter will pay". But never have I ever heard - "hope the police get all the evidence they need to get the right result". Its like he's talking about a science experiment.

Just a very "unusual" answer to a question we have all seen many others answer differently.

I think I heard ED make similar comments.... just that they want the right person convicted for their part.
I don't think AB is an overly emotional kinda person. As I posted earlier I HIGHLY suspect he has some social issues (perhaps aspergers or high functioning autism) by seeing the interviews and hearing comments from those that know him (ie; the elevator doesn't go all the way to the top). If that's the case his reactions, comments, and comments that aren't made are typical of someone with that disorder.

Pondering Mind
11-17-2010, 03:19 PM
Very often I have found it's not what someone says..it's what they fail to say..

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 03:21 PM
What I felt wasn't appropriate AT ALL was the way his mother beamed at him when the reporter said "he's your baby boy" or whatever the exact words were. This is not the time to be proud of him.............

It was almost an "isn't he marvelous!" kind of look.

:yuck:

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 03:22 PM
I think any diagnosing of any "mental impairment' should be left to qualified professionals who have spent a great amount of time with AB. He had absolutely no problems functioning in the world before this.

darnudes
11-17-2010, 03:31 PM
I think I heard ED make similar comments.... just that they want the right person convicted for their part.
I don't think AB is an overly emotional kinda person. As I posted earlier I HIGHLY suspect he has some social issues (perhaps aspergers or high functioning autism) by seeing the interviews and hearing comments from those that know him (ie; the elevator doesn't go all the way to the top). If that's the case his reactions, comments, and comments that aren't made are typical of someone with that disorder.

There is no factual information that exists to support the theory that he has Asperger's syndrome or autism.

In my opinion he is a man guilty of something and doing his best to avert suspicion. All he is doing is speaking in a slow, careful, measured way, he is considering his answers before he speaks. He is not speaking from the heart.

It looks like his ploy has worked as there seems to be a few people who are buying his latest performance. This was a contrived affair by the Bakers and his lawyer in an attempt to sway some of the jury pool down the line. On a personal note, I'm happy he gave the interview and I hope he gives many more - because they will come back to bite him when he is arrested and stands trial.

If the police can prove that Zahra died before the 8th of October then Mr Baker will have a lot of explaining to do.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 03:33 PM
I think any diagnosing of any "mental impairment' should be left to qualified professionals who have spent a great amount of time with AB. He had absolutely no problems functioning in the world before this.

I said that *I* suspect. I wasn't diagnosing anyone.
There have been plenty here that aren't qualified professionals that have speculated Munchausen's (EB), BBP (EB) , psychopath (AB / EB) and sociopath (AB/EB) with various others thrown in. So I see nothing wrong in speculating that he could be Aspergers or is a high functioning autistic. I feel strongly that he comes across as such in his interviews and other interactions. Of course it's MOO and you don't have to agree, but it's completely within TOS I believe to speculate that it could be the case.

And I don't think we know for sure that he had "no problems" functioning in the world before this. As far as I know we know very little about his life and history outside of what has happened recently with Zahra.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 03:37 PM
There is no factual information that exists to support the theory that he has Asperger's syndrome or autism.

It looks like his ploy has worked as there seems to be a few people who are buying his latest performance. .

I'm not sure why I am getting jumped on for speculating that he could have one of these social disorders based on this and prior interviews and comments from those that knew him. Had I said I thought he was a sociopath no one would have questioned it (it's been said 100's of times in these threads).

And further, I'm not "buying" a new performance. I've pretty much always been on the side that we have no evidence that AB committed any crimes against Zahra.

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 03:42 PM
I'm not sure why I am getting jumped on for speculating that he could have one of these social disorders based on this and prior interviews and comments from those that knew him. Had I said I thought he was a sociopath no one would have questioned it (it's been said 100's of times in these threads).

And further, I'm not "buying" a new performance. I've pretty much always been on the side that we have no evidence that AB committed any crimes against Zahra.

Belly, I'm not jumping, just putting my two cents in too. I'm allowed to do that also. I just have never, on ANY case, thought we needed arm chair Dr.'s. There is to much that goes into the correct diagnosis and there is no way any one can do it from snippets. I say that about the talking heads on the tee vee too.

WhyaDuck?
11-17-2010, 03:45 PM
Everyone step away from their keyboards for a second and take a breath. Try not to see people disagreeing with you as an attack. At the same time, don't be rude if you disagree.

Personally (JMHO), I don't care for armchair psych evaluations (for any player), but speculation is fine (as long as it is clearly labelled as speculation).

Carry on, and try not to get one each others' nerves, please.

darnudes
11-17-2010, 03:47 PM
I'm not sure why I am getting jumped on for speculating that he could have one of these social disorders based on this and prior interviews and comments from those that knew him. Had I said I thought he was a sociopath no one would have questioned it (it's been said 100's of times in these threads).

And further, I'm not "buying" a new performance. I've pretty much always been on the side that we have no evidence that AB committed any crimes against Zahra.

Did it seem like I am jumping on you? Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I guess I see your comments as an attempt to abrogate him of any wrong doing, based on some quasi mental defect, when I believe the reality is far simpler.

tlcya
11-17-2010, 03:50 PM
I get your point completely bellyup and you are right. You posted that you suspect. Clearly speculation, which is allowed.

You are also right that many times posters toss around sociopath and psycopath and all those unflattering diagnosis so I can see why you are feeling singled out for having suggested a social disorder is responsible for AB's er interesting affect.

The folks who prefer we not diagnose AB with mental health or social disorders tend to be the type of poster who disagree with ANY diagnosis (even the easy to reach for when angry with the topic of discussion diagnosis of psycho and socio, etc.)

hugs kids.

Soup anyone?

NOTE: soup today is ferre roche chocolates.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 03:55 PM
I beg to differ...soup today is bourbon and coke.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 03:56 PM
Sorry teh and darnudes. It's just I am pretty firmly in the "we can't convict AB camp in the court of WS opinion" with what little we already know. There is NO evidence at all right now that we know of that indicates he hurt Zahra aside from EB's accusations (which... yeah....I'm not going there).

Every time I (or anyone else) posts anything that shows slight support of him it seems as if we get jumped on (not just by you ... there are only a few of us who are still thinking he COULD be innocent). It gets frustrating that he's already been tried and convicted here ... and the only comments that seem acceptable are if they point to his guilt.

tlcya
11-17-2010, 03:59 PM
{{belly}} I have been on a fence before. It is not a comfortable place to be when the majority of members feel differently. Just remember, if you are going to take up an unpopular cause or position here, it really pays to develop thick skin and just hang in.

I am speaking from experience. Being on the fence is no easy place to be and not for teh faint at heart.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 04:01 PM
{{belly}} I have been on a fence before. It is not a comfortable place to be when the majority of members feel differently. Just remember, if you are going to take up an unpopular cause or position here, it really pays to develop thick skin and just hang in.

I am speaking from experience. Being on the fence is no easy place to be and not for teh faint at heart.

so in the end .... were you right ? LOL :crazy::crazy:

darnudes
11-17-2010, 04:02 PM
Sorry teh and darnudes. It's just I am pretty firmly in the "we can't convict AB camp in the court of WS opinion" with what little we already know. There is NO evidence at all right now that we know of that indicates he hurt Zahra aside from EB's accusations (which... yeah....I'm not going there).

Every time I (or anyone else) posts anything that shows slight support of him it seems as if we get jumped on (not just by you ... there are only a few of us who are still thinking he COULD be innocent). It gets frustrating that he's already been tried and convicted here ... and the only comments that seem acceptable are if they point to his guilt.

I can see that and see things from your point of view. You've chosen to take an unpopular stance and I guess it is quite worthy that you have decided to wait till there are more facts available. You think he may be innocent, I don't. Just don't take disagreement as people jumping on you, as that is not the case from me at all.

Aedrys
11-17-2010, 04:04 PM
I think I heard ED make similar comments.... just that they want the right person convicted for their part.
I don't think AB is an overly emotional kinda person. As I posted earlier I HIGHLY suspect he has some social issues (perhaps aspergers or high functioning autism) by seeing the interviews and hearing comments from those that know him (ie; the elevator doesn't go all the way to the top). If that's the case his reactions, comments, and comments that aren't made are typical of someone with that disorder.

Not jumping on you, but most people with Asperger's and Austism don't murder or dismember anyone. I know a child with Asperger's. I think we're just a little sensitive because we know people with these disorders and no way in heck would we ever want to put AB in the same category. I know I cannot do it myself.

april_showers
11-17-2010, 04:05 PM
I beg to differ...soup today is bourbon and coke.

Which we can use to wash down our chocolates, right? =)

In all seriousness, whether AB is innocent or guilty, I do think any form of social disorder / autism spectrum / mental disability would weigh in. I agree than armchair diagnoses can get out of hand, and I see how throwing around clinical terms can get dangerous. However, if AB does have some affliction barring him from social judgment to some degree, this could be important on either side (and NOT as an excuse, get out of jail free card, etc).

If he's innocent - maybe it would help explain some of his odd behavior, or how he purportedly "didn't notice" EB abusing Zahra.

If guilty - maybe its another case of two alleged sociopaths finding each other. OR, perhaps it helped blur the line between fantasy and reality for AB... if he never really had a clear distinction to being with?

JMO. And you ALL have extremely valid, points, IMO. =)

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 04:05 PM
I get your point completely bellyup and you are right. You posted that you suspect. Clearly speculation, which is allowed.

You are also right that many times posters toss around sociopath and psycopath and all those unflattering diagnosis so I can see why you are feeling singled out for having suggested a social disorder is responsible for AB's er interesting affect.

The folks who prefer we not diagnose AB with mental health or social disorders tend to be the type of poster who disagree with ANY diagnosis (even the easy to reach for when angry with the topic of discussion diagnosis of psycho and socio, etc.)

hugs kids.

Soup anyone?

NOTE: soup today is ferre roche chocolates.

BBM

^^^^Raises hand!!!! That's meeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! Over here lookk!!!!! Who needs teh soup when I haz teh brownies...........:dance:

tlcya
11-17-2010, 04:07 PM
so in the end .... were you right ? LOL :crazy::crazy:
Unfortunately it hasn't ended. But I did finally reach a point where all the circumstantial evidence overwhelmed my ability to give the person the benefit of the doubt any more. So I finally climbed down off that fence.

I pray someday there will be resolution and then I will finally know if I was right in doing so.

Belinda
11-17-2010, 04:08 PM
Dear Lord, I just wish something would break in this case and give us some answers. This is making me nuts!

tlcya
11-17-2010, 04:08 PM
BBM

^^^^Raises hand!!!! That's meeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! Over here lookk!!!!! Who needs teh soup when I haz teh brownies...........:dance:

chocalates and brownies are not mutually exclusive but can be quite nice when paired together.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 04:09 PM
I think Teh has had enough soup for one day.

NancyA
11-17-2010, 04:09 PM
Sorry teh and darnudes. It's just I am pretty firmly in the "we can't convict AB camp in the court of WS opinion" with what little we already know. There is NO evidence at all right now that we know of that indicates he hurt Zahra aside from EB's accusations (which... yeah....I'm not going there).



I said much the same about Terri Horman way back when...glad I was wearing my flameproof knickers THAT day. :wink:

Just adding my 'don't take it personally' to everyone else's. FWIW.

Yay, past midday at last, pass the bourbon and the choccies!!

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 04:10 PM
Unfortunately it hasn't ended. But I did finally reach a point where all the circumstantial evidence overwhelmed my ability to give the person the benefit of the doubt any more. So I finally climbed down off that fence.

I pray someday there will be resolution and then I will finally know if I was right in doing so.

I am still hanging on to the top on the fence, but only with my little pinky toe. There's just that nagging little niggling in the back of my head, lol.

Aedrys
11-17-2010, 04:11 PM
BBM

^^^^Raises hand!!!! That's meeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! Over here lookk!!!!! Who needs teh soup when I haz teh brownies...........:dance:

What exactly are in those brownies, Teh? And can I have some? LOL

Wise Old Owl
11-17-2010, 04:12 PM
chocalates and brownies are not mutually exclusive but can be quite nice when paired together.
Especially if you're talking about teh's brownies :wink:

Let's stop and take a breath for a moment and "turn the card over" so to speak

Ok - what if EB and AB had nothing to do with this? Then WHO did this? WHO had access to Zahra, the home, the cars, the backyard? WHO was/is so vindictive towards EB and AB that they would do this to a child?

IOW - If NOT EB and AB then WHO did this?

Belinda
11-17-2010, 04:13 PM
Especially if you're talking about teh's brownies :wink:

Let's stop and take a breath for a moment and "turn the card over" so to speak

Ok - what if EB and AB had nothing to do with this? Then WHO did this? WHO had access to Zahra, the home, the cars, the backyard? WHO was/is so vindictive towards EB and AB that they would do this to a child?

IOW - If NOT EB and AB then WHO did this?

The milkman

tehcloser
11-17-2010, 04:14 PM
"Especially if you're talking about eh's brownies"

Yes, my name's teh, but my friends call me eh........lmbo. Ok, I'll stop. It's just after the last couple of days, we needed to laugh. I'll behave now.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 04:14 PM
Especially if you're talking about teh's brownies :wink:

Let's stop and take a breath for a moment and "turn the card over" so to speak

Ok - what if EB and AB had nothing to do with this? Then WHO did this? WHO had access to Zahra, the home, the cars, the backyard? WHO was/is so vindictive towards EB and AB that they would do this to a child?

IOW - If NOT EB and AB then WHO did this?

I fold.

ETA: Have we moved into meatloaf time now?

Wise Old Owl
11-17-2010, 04:15 PM
"Especially if you're talking about eh's brownies"

Yes, my name's teh, but my friends call me eh........lmbo. Ok, I'll stop. It's just after the last couple of days, we needed to laugh. I'll behave now.
lol - I caught that and fixed it. You'll have to excuse me - I just washed my hands and I can't do a thing with them. teehee

tlcya
11-17-2010, 04:16 PM
did someone say milk? Man these brownies are good!

impatientredhead
11-17-2010, 04:17 PM
I said much the same about Terri Horman way back when...glad I was wearing my flameproof knickers THAT day. :wink:

Just adding my 'don't take it personally' to everyone else's. FWIW.

Yay, past midday at last, pass the bourbon and the choccies!!

I think it is great experience to be on the unpopular side of the argument/opinions around here.

It really hones your debate skills and if turns out the masses were right it has its own learning curve to it as well.

I hung in there way after the masses had turned on Cindy Anthony and maintained that she was grandmother in denial. Got my ass handed to me, and then got to say I had changed my mind she was manipulating the case.

But I believed it when I said it.

DLT88
11-17-2010, 04:17 PM
Sorry teh and darnudes. It's just I am pretty firmly in the "we can't convict AB camp in the court of WS opinion" with what little we already know. There is NO evidence at all right now that we know of that indicates he hurt Zahra aside from EB's accusations (which... yeah....I'm not going there).

Every time I (or anyone else) posts anything that shows slight support of him it seems as if we get jumped on (not just by you ... there are only a few of us who are still thinking he COULD be innocent). It gets frustrating that he's already been tried and convicted here ... and the only comments that seem acceptable are if they point to his guilt.

I also am not sure. There were times I thought he was, at least, partly involved, and then I go back to being unsure again. I just don't know enough to say yet. For me, he is guilty of not protecting his daughter from EB from the abuse. As far as the probable murder and body disposal, I just don't know what to think. I look forward to the police coming forward when they are ready to tell us what they have pieced together.

EB has shown herself to be quite a liar in her life so I feel I must doubt everything that comes out of her mouth. She is not living in the real world.

the seeker
11-17-2010, 04:22 PM
I voted that he was equally involved as EB. True, no physical evidence as of yet..however, if it werent for that 911 call.......I cant get past that. I cant get past the fact that if he really was dumb enough to believe the ransom note thing, that IF he loved his daughter he would have checked on her to be sure she was in her room, not just thinking he saw her or heard or, or whatever...he would have checked. What parent wouldnt...if he didnt and beleived the ransome note to be real at the time, then he definitely has mental issues, IMO. What else is there, if that doesnt apply? Points to guilt in MHO....I cant put the little giggle during the call down to anything but a nervous guilt laugh...AND...if he wasnt aware of what had happened and hadnt taken part, then he is definitely guilty of gross negligence...I mean his child didnt even go to school, home school or otherwise. He kept running from bio mom...my opinion is that he was abusive to Zahra long ago, and didnt want anyone finding out, as bio mom would have eventually, or at least he was afraid she would. Before EB entered the picture, grandma took care of Z for the most part, from what I understand....and grandma must have done a fair job at it for Z to have the disposition and outlook that she did. All MOO.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 04:28 PM
I'm almost close to the fence about EB having done the actual deed. Mainly because, there have been a few things that have made me wonder if this was a setup. But...haven't seen anything yet that is inching me any closer to the fence, so I'm just staying put for the moment.

WhyaDuck?
11-17-2010, 04:30 PM
Publicly, I try to remain on the fence until conviction, as I firmly believe in innocent until proven guilty. Privately... I'm human, so that's as much as I can say about that.

I welcome all sides (innocent, guilty, abstentions, etc) as long as they are done respectfully.

Clue Hopper
11-17-2010, 04:33 PM
I have this little tid bit that floats around and leaves then comes back for me. AF stated her mother was having an online affair. I wondered if AB found out about this. Said I'll get a job, take care of you, and we can make this work. EB didn't want that. She wanted the new guy. I'm not saying I've accepted that speculation. I'm just saying it keeps floating around with me.

impatientredhead
11-17-2010, 04:36 PM
I also am not sure. There were times I thought he was, at least, partly involved, and then I go back to being unsure again. I just don't know enough to say yet. For me, he is guilty of not protecting his daughter from EB from the abuse. As far as the probable murder and body disposal, I just don't know what to think. I look forward to the police coming forward when they are ready to tell us what they have pieced together.

EB has shown herself to be quite a liar in her life so I feel I must doubt everything that comes out of her mouth. She is not living in the real world.

I think water seeks its own level as far as EB and AB go.
She probably delivered the fatal blow, I would accept that.
But he failed to protect his child with a known abuser.

I 100% believe he did all the heavy lifting on the disposal and clean up.

And they should both face the same penalty in my opinion.

KPMcLovin
11-17-2010, 04:40 PM
Especially if you're talking about teh's brownies :wink:

Let's stop and take a breath for a moment and "turn the card over" so to speak

Ok - what if EB and AB had nothing to do with this? Then WHO did this? WHO had access to Zahra, the home, the cars, the backyard? WHO was/is so vindictive towards EB and AB that they would do this to a child?

IOW - If NOT EB and AB then WHO did this?

Whoever it was told EB exactly what was done with the body and where to find it. :)

bellyup
11-17-2010, 05:32 PM
Not jumping on you, but most people with Asperger's and Austism don't murder or dismember anyone. I know a child with Asperger's. I think we're just a little sensitive because we know people with these disorders and no way in heck would we ever want to put AB in the same category. I know I cannot do it myself.

I in NO way referenced that Autism or Asperger's cause someone to murder and dismember someone. Especially since I believe there is a very good chance that Adam is INNOCENT. You clearly took that from my post.... perhaps because of your own sensitivity but it was in no way implied.

My child has Asperger's and my brother is HFA .... I see a lot of my own child and my brother in AB. The similarities between AB and my brother are profound and certainly help form my SUSPICION that AB could have one of these disorders.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 05:35 PM
Especially if you're talking about teh's brownies :wink:

Let's stop and take a breath for a moment and "turn the card over" so to speak

Ok - what if EB and AB had nothing to do with this? Then WHO did this? WHO had access to Zahra, the home, the cars, the backyard? WHO was/is so vindictive towards EB and AB that they would do this to a child?

IOW - If NOT EB and AB then WHO did this?

I think we'd have to move to the "third party involvement" for that thread. <modsnip>

FWIW I think EB is guilty as the day is long.
Just not ready to throw AB in the same camp ... yet ? :waitasec:

DLT88
11-17-2010, 05:35 PM
I'm almost close to the fence about EB having done the actual deed. Mainly because, there have been a few things that have made me wonder if this was a setup. But...haven't seen anything yet that is inching me any closer to the fence, so I'm just staying put for the moment.

I was entertaining this thought today as I was driving to get some lunch (all that brownie talk made me HUNGRY!);) What IF EB did the whole thing -- the entire thing.....I noticed that she went, allegedly, outside to tell AB she couldn't find Zahra. It seemed to me she wanted AB to be the one to call and report it --- not her. Maybe, as she was doing this evil deed (I really think it was premeditated), she was maybe thinking, 'I can get rid of the kid and AB at the same time. I can blame all this on him. Then I can be ME again and free to meet someone else who actually HAS some money'......

Like others say, that 911 call bothers me, too, though. But I don't know AB and his mentality or his emotional or basic personality. I don't what is normal to him. Maybe EB knew he would come off that way, and then it would be easier to claim he either helped her do it or he did it on his own.

Just thinking of possibilities...........

bellyup
11-17-2010, 05:37 PM
I'm almost close to the fence about EB having done the actual deed. Mainly because, there have been a few things that have made me wonder if this was a setup. But...haven't seen anything yet that is inching me any closer to the fence, so I'm just staying put for the moment.

I considered that (that EB was being set up).... for a moment. Then I decided that was exactly what she wants people to think. Master manipulator and all.

DLT88
11-17-2010, 05:38 PM
I in NO way referenced that Autism or Asperger's cause someone to murder and dismember someone. Especially since I believe there is a very good chance that Adam is INNOCENT. You clearly took that from my post.... perhaps because of your own sensitivity but it was in no way implied.

My child has Asperger's and my brother is HFA .... I see a lot of my own child and my brother in AB. The similarities between AB and my brother are profound and certainly help form my SUSPICION that AB could have one of these disorders.

You might be right since you have experience with these things. I wonder if the socialized medicine in Australia is not that good at covering mental illnesses --- or things like Autism or Asperger's. It doesn't seem like ED was getting enough help (or any at all) for her post-partum depression. Maybe AB was never diagnosed if he has it.

bellyup
11-17-2010, 05:46 PM
I think water seeks its own level as far as EB and AB go.
She probably delivered the fatal blow, I would accept that.
But he failed to protect his child with a known abuser.


I think what gets me on this is having grown up in a very (VERY VERY) mentally and physically abusive abusive home.... no one noticed. Really. No one knew it. In fact, I was often labeled the "problem" child and was fiercely protective of my abuser. We lived in a tiny apartment too. My abusers abuse was so that ... most would think my abuser was trying to punish an unruly child. In fact, in some ways other family members including extended family outside of the home CONTRIBUTED to the abuse without even realizing it. It wasn't until I was well into adulthood did a family member (one of the ones who contributed in fact) looked at me and said "OH MY GOD... it's wasn't you." and I just looked at them and shook my head "No."
They then went on a tangent as things "clicked" in their heads. "Oh my GOD ... that one time that the abuser had me do this or that ....." and I just sat there and listened.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 05:51 PM
I was entertaining this thought today as I was driving to get some lunch (all that brownie talk made me HUNGRY!);) What IF EB did the whole thing -- the entire thing.....I noticed that she went, allegedly, outside to tell AB she couldn't find Zahra. It seemed to me she wanted AB to be the one to call and report it --- not her. Maybe, as she was doing this evil deed (I really think it was premeditated), she was maybe thinking, 'I can get rid of the kid and AB at the same time. I can blame all this on him. Then I can be ME again and free to meet someone else who actually HAS some money'......

Like others say, that 911 call bothers me, too, though. But I don't know AB and his mentality or his emotional or basic personality. I don't what is normal to him. Maybe EB knew he would come off that way, and then it would be easier to claim he either helped her do it or he did it on his own.

Just thinking of possibilities...........

No no...I meant I've actually entertained thoughts that EB had been set up by AB (and/or someone else).

But it was a pretty fleeting though, given the facts as I know them.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 05:53 PM
I considered that (that EB was being set up).... for a moment. Then I decided that was exactly what she wants people to think. Master manipulator and all.

Well, I didn't think that based upon anything SHE has said, so...

bellyup
11-17-2010, 06:06 PM
You might be right since you have experience with these things. I wonder if the socialized medicine in Australia is not that good at covering mental illnesses --- or things like Autism or Asperger's. It doesn't seem like ED was getting enough help (or any at all) for her post-partum depression. Maybe AB was never diagnosed if he has it.

Asperger's (in particular) really does take a long history of symptoms to diagnose. It's also heavily debated in the medical field (it may just be a form of high functioning Autism). My child that has Asperger's wasn't firmly diagnosed into well into her teens (her diagnosis was further hindered by the fact that Asperger's is typically NOT subscribed to females)

Here is a page about the common symptoms http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/aspergers-syndrome-symptoms and why I think they MAY pertain to AB.

Not pick up on social cues and may lack inborn social skills, such as being able to read others' body language, start or maintain a conversation, and take turns talking.
He frequently "over talks" in interviews. Looks to others to speak for him or tell him how to answer. He didn't even seem to notice Det. Deal's distance from him in the early interview.


Appear to lack empathy
This one is obvious.

Be unable to recognize subtle differences in speech tone, pitch, and accent that alter the meaning of others’ speech. Thus, your child may not understand a joke or may take a sarcastic comment literally. Likewise, his or her speech may be flat and difficult to understand because it lacks tone, pitch, and accent.
His speech certainly is flat... it lacks tone, pitch and accent.

Have a formal style of speaking that is advanced for his or her age. For example, the child may use the word "beckon" instead of "call" or the word "return" instead of "come back."
While this link speaks of children ... I think it's also somewhat apparent in AB. Words like "appropriate" being used to describe a memorial service. In general he certainly has a formal way of speaking (which may be cultural but hearing his mother and ED they do not speak as "formally" as he does) The one thing this list doesn't mention but I know from experience with my daughter is that they OFTEN over explain something. To the point that it seems like they are just going on and on for no reason and they lack the ability to realize that doing this is akward to the person they are speaking to.

Avoid eye contact or stare at others.
We've seen this many times with AB. Sometimes he looks away ... and sometimes he appears to be starting. I see this frequently with my brother. Either he's staring at me or not looking at me (at weird times too)

Have unusual facial expressions or postures.


Be preoccupied with only one or few interests, which he or she may be very knowledgeable about. Many children with Asperger's syndrome are overly interested in parts of a whole or in unusual activities, such as designing houses, drawing highly detailed scenes, or studying astronomy. They may show an unusual interest in certain topics such as snakes, names of stars, or dinosaurs.Talk a lot, usually about a favorite subject. One-sided conversations are common. Internal thoughts are often verbalized.
I think as an adult this comes into play with online gaming for AB. They are usually drawn to things that are technical. My brother is also a video game addict ... and completely obsessed with computers and will talk to someone for HOURS about it never realizing that the person wasn't at all interested.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 06:11 PM
So, I guess LE probably already knows whose blood was recovered from the console of AB's "company vehicle", huh? Can't take that long to get those labs back, can it?

raisincharlie
11-17-2010, 06:23 PM
I was entertaining this thought today as I was driving to get some lunch (all that brownie talk made me HUNGRY!);) What IF EB did the whole thing -- the entire thing.....I noticed that she went, allegedly, outside to tell AB she couldn't find Zahra. It seemed to me she wanted AB to be the one to call and report it --- not her. Maybe, as she was doing this evil deed (I really think it was premeditated), she was maybe thinking, 'I can get rid of the kid and AB at the same time. I can blame all this on him. Then I can be ME again and free to meet someone else who actually HAS some money'......

Like others say, that 911 call bothers me, too, though. But I don't know AB and his mentality or his emotional or basic personality. I don't what is normal to him. Maybe EB knew he would come off that way, and then it would be easier to claim he either helped her do it or he did it on his own.

Just thinking of possibilities...........

I don't see anything that concludes EB could not or was not capable of doing this all by herself. I do think it is a possibility, but I also think it is possible there is someone else involved and simply cannot get a grip on if that was AB or, someone else, as yet unknown. Dogs hitting both vehicles though is a big hmmm for me I admit. I am on for EB being the one who murdered Zahra though.

NancyA
11-17-2010, 06:24 PM
I'm almost close to the fence about EB having done the actual deed. Mainly because, there have been a few things that have made me wonder if this was a setup. But...haven't seen anything yet that is inching me any closer to the fence, so I'm just staying put for the moment.

Hmm, now this is an interesting departure. EB set up?

'Set up' as in someone else is equally guilty but is doing his damnedest to make sure she takes the whole rap? Oh yes. Absolutely. I think I've already said I don't believe AB is quite as daft as he makes himself out to be, mind you he's not having to do much to see EB hangs herself, she's doing a fine job of that herself.

Bia.
11-17-2010, 06:49 PM
I think AB was 100% involved, in all aspects, and he is the master manipulator in this case. I think it's weird he shaved his stash and beard, almost like he wanted to try to look like a young, innocent man. The lack of emotion, tears, anger is also another red flag. While I know there is a shock factor when finding out your loved one is dead, there is also some sort of emotion. When my father died unexpectedly I was in complete shock. I also cried until I could no longer. This was every day, for months.

AB is sitting back thinking he is going to go "home", just like EB thinks she will be getting out of jail soon. Neither of them realize the trouble that they are in or they are in denial.

It's such a shame that a beautiful child, who wanted so much love and attention, only gets it after she is murdered and dismembered.

catnron
11-17-2010, 06:56 PM
Well I watched it. I really want to believe him, but I can't.

I believe him, I really believe that he did not know, Also he may have been next on her list.If he was guilty LE would have him right in a cell next love bride.EB may can fool a lot of people but she will not fool LE, I would bet on that.

Bia.
11-17-2010, 07:01 PM
I don't see anything that concludes EB could not or was not capable of doing this all by herself. I do think it is a possibility, but I also think it is possible there is someone else involved and simply cannot get a grip on if that was AB or, someone else, as yet unknown. Dogs hitting both vehicles though is a big hmmm for me I admit. I am on for EB being the one who murdered Zahra though.

BBM

I think the time frame (3 hours, according to when AB last saw Z and when the cars were seized) is enough for me to believe she couldn't possibly act alone. I think Z was dead and the act was done days before they came up with the kidnapping plan.

It's tough because we really don't know what type of man AB is. We've heard all the horror stories about EB, but what about Adam? We know he tried to run people off the road, that shows he may be capable of murder. He may have a secret violent side that nobody knew about.

I just don't feel in my heart EB acted alone and AB didn't notice one strange thing. Also, the fact that he chopped things up for a living, doesn't sit well with me either. I suppose with his line of work he would know how to go about dismembering things.

Allusonz
11-17-2010, 07:02 PM
Just some thoughts
Usually you have a number of gel liners in varying degrees of thickness to help with the increase/decrease in the prosthetic fitting, daughter has 10 ie. fluid retention / swelling
Defense motion = strategic manoeuvring
Obtaining significant evidence- I suspect they may not of known exactly what they were going to find just the area/place to look. Whether this compromises the investigation etc do not know possibilities
are endless
The previous address and Monty Carlo keep coming back to me
The very careful wording of the press conference especially the swabs of both bio parents unless needed something to fill in at the PC
I seriously doubt they had access to the hickory address or would bother with the landfill. I would suspect the previous address or another location
Hardware of the prosthesis contains the means of the identification not the liners i.e. socket joints, daughters new joints actually come from Germany
AB's defense taking own pictures of various places around the hickory address means AB defense focusing on specifics as were there for relatively short time
Believe EB could of done this probable though had help. Part that has me is that only was person was seen sitting on steps not two
Dogs hitting on both vehicles if EB was in both one to dispose one to plant letter and gasoline
So far all about EB from what i see not AB at least this portion. Could be waiting on results MOO

pip
11-17-2010, 07:09 PM
I think AB was 100% involved, in all aspects, and he is the master manipulator in this case. I think it's weird he shaved his stash and beard, almost like he wanted to try to look like a young, innocent man. The lack of emotion, tears, anger is also another red flag. While I know there is a shock factor when finding out your loved one is dead, there is also some sort of emotion. When my father died unexpectedly I was in complete shock. I also cried until I could no longer. This was every day, for months.

AB is sitting back thinking he is going to go "home", just like EB thinks she will be getting out of jail soon. Neither of them realize the trouble that they are in or they are in denial.

It's such a shame that a beautiful child, who wanted so much love and attention, only gets it after she is murdered and dismembered.I agree. I think he is equally involved. Drug fiends, poor life skills, obviously very poor parenting skills...(if any). The look I see on his face is a 'deer in the headlights'.. He sees the train coming down the tracks right towards him and he is stuck. No passport, nowhere to run, nowhere to hide..He is just following his attorneys instructions and cues. His mum doesn't get 'mother of the year' award either, IMO.

catnron
11-17-2010, 07:13 PM
I have this little tid bit that floats around and leaves then comes back for me. AF stated her mother was having an online affair. I wondered if AB found out about this. Said I'll get a job, take care of you, and we can make this work. EB didn't want that. She wanted the new guy. I'm not saying I've accepted that speculation. I'm just saying it keeps floating around with me.
Great post

CarmelEyesD
11-17-2010, 07:17 PM
I personally don't feel he is too smart. i think he always 'got by' with hard work ethics and simple basic needs..if he asked for little and worked hard, that is what people saw and knew. But he doesn't seem to be overly intelligent, and that may have made him extremely malleable by stronger personalities. JMO

pip
11-17-2010, 07:20 PM
I personally don't feel he is too smart. i think he always 'got by' with hard work ethics and simple basic needs..if he asked for little and worked hard, that is what people saw and knew. But he doesn't seem to be overly intelligent, and that may have made him extremely malleable by stronger personalities. JMO
Well EB doesn't appear to be the sharpest either. Her letters show an emotional mentality of a young teen. Obviously stunted in development...way off the tracks.

netsleuther
11-17-2010, 07:26 PM
the aw shucks likability, distancing himself without anger or rage at what EB must have done to and with his daughter without him, if he is to believed.

*shakes head, puzzled"

His reaction in that regard makes me think of his video interview when LE was standing beside him where AB answered something like, from what LE have told me it might be possible and then LE said they would like to keep that in the investigation.

If LE are trying to dot all i's and cross all t's then AB may have been told to keep his own speculations to himself.

It's hard to try to read his emotion, same with KB and same with their other family members. I went to KB's own fathers funeral some years ago and there was plenty of hurt in the family but the emotions were bottled up.

pip
11-17-2010, 07:30 PM
In the video he refers to Tom Adkins as "Tom", down to earth guy. I think they are playing him for a fool. Supportive, nice cop, guilty step-mom, innocent dad.. to give AB a false sense of security (and to make him more vulnerable)...and mostly to PO EB into a frenzy that she is the only focus of suspicion so she starts revealing enough info for LE to nab AB as well. I think it has worked nicely, thus far.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 07:32 PM
Hmm, now this is an interesting departure. EB set up?

'Set up' as in someone else is equally guilty but is doing his damnedest to make sure she takes the whole rap? Oh yes. Absolutely. I think I've already said I don't believe AB is quite as daft as he makes himself out to be, mind you he's not having to do much to see EB hangs herself, she's doing a fine job of that herself.

Well, I meant "set up" as in perhaps she only took part in the clean up and disposal, but is being set up to take the fall for everything.

I'm certainly NOT saying I believe that's what happened, but I have entertained those thoughts, yes. Especially after looking at certain close relationships AB seems to have developed.

If I remove those few nagging questions, I'm firmly in the camp that both AB and EB are up to their eyeballs in this. Just can't figure out who did what exactly.

Bia.
11-17-2010, 07:39 PM
Well, I meant "set up" as in perhaps she only took part in the clean up and disposal, but is being set up to take the fall for everything.

I'm certainly NOT saying I believe that's what happened, but I have entertained those thoughts, yes. Especially after looking at certain close relationships AB seems to have developed.

If I remove those few nagging questions, I'm firmly in the camp that both AB and EB are up to their eyeballs in this. Just can't figure out who did what exactly.

BBM.

I have to agree. I think originally, the plan was for the both of them to get away with this (the ridiculous kidnapping plan). When that failed and everyone automatically targeted EB (people coming out about the abuse, drugs, stealing, etc) he sort of just went with the flow. That would explain her letters and how she says he is letting her take the blame.

raisincharlie
11-17-2010, 07:51 PM
BBM

I think the time frame (3 hours, according to when AB last saw Z and when the cars were seized) is enough for me to believe she couldn't possibly act alone. I think Z was dead and the act was done days before they came up with the kidnapping plan.

It's tough because we really don't know what type of man AB is. We've heard all the horror stories about EB, but what about Adam? We know he tried to run people off the road, that shows he may be capable of murder. He may have a secret violent side that nobody knew about.

I just don't feel in my heart EB acted alone and AB didn't notice one strange thing. Also, the fact that he chopped things up for a living, doesn't sit well with me either. I suppose with his line of work he would know how to go about dismembering things.

You lost me on the time frame - 3 hours ? I could be wrong but AB says EB saw Zahra at 230 am, on the 9th, not sure I believe that to start with though as AB later can't even remember what day he saw Zahra. We do know the mattress was tossed 2 or 3 days prior. The cars, according to the warrant were not taken until 9:41 pm on the 10th - well over 24 hours after Zahra was reported missing.


One thing that does trip me up though, is the fact that the remains found at Dudley Shoals were buried. I can imagine EB driving about and throwing parts of Zahra here and there, I don't think she cared about the child at all. Buried remains, just my thoughts, buried remains indicate someone cared enough to bury the victim. Most murder victims are tossed away, no significant effort to bury the victims. A large portion of Zahra was buried, just my thought, the person who buried her cared enough about her to do that. JMO on it though.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 07:54 PM
You lost me on the time frame - 3 hours ? I could be wrong but AB says EB saw Zahra at 230 am, on the 9th, not sure I believe that to start with though as AB later can't even remember what day he saw Zahra. We do know the mattress was tossed 2 or 3 days prior. The cars, according to the warrant were not taken until 9:41 pm on the 10th - well over 24 hours after Zahra was reported missing.


One thing that does trip me up though, is the fact that the remains found at Dudley Shoals were buried. I can imagine EB driving about and throwing parts of Zahra here and there, I don't think she cared about the child at all. Buried remains, just my thoughts, buried remains indicate someone cared enough to bury the victim. Most murder victims are tossed away, no significant effort to bury the victims. A large portion of Zahra was buried, just my thought, the person who buried her cared enough about her to do that. JMO on it though.

Or they simply buried particular body parts that could immediately, on sight, identify the body as Zahra's.

CarmelEyesD
11-17-2010, 07:59 PM
I personally dont feel EB was set up. If what we are hearing about abuse is true (and I am sure it is) the stage was already set for all of this to follow. She strikes me as a cruel controlling person, who is now trying to manipulate the situation to her advantage and for her own preservation. Whether she has help or not, I am undecided still..JMO

DLT88
11-17-2010, 08:11 PM
Asperger's (in particular) really does take a long history of symptoms to diagnose. It's also heavily debated in the medical field (it may just be a form of high functioning Autism). My child that has Asperger's wasn't firmly diagnosed into well into her teens (her diagnosis was further hindered by the fact that Asperger's is typically NOT subscribed to females)

Here is a page about the common symptoms http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/aspergers-syndrome-symptoms and why I think they MAY pertain to AB.

[/COLOR]

This is so fascinating to learn about. Thanks so much. I can see what you are talking about with the possibility that AB might have something like this.

Mountain_Kat
11-17-2010, 08:12 PM
I personally dont feel EB was set up. If what we are hearing about abuse is true (and I am sure it is) the stage was already set for all of this to follow. She strikes me as a cruel controlling person, who is now trying to manipulate the situation to her advantage and for her own preservation. Whether she has help or not, I am undecided still..JMO

BBM

Well, as I said before, I dont either. But having said that, the fact that she previously abused Zahra does not neccesarily mean that she killed Zahra. There are numerous cases of abuse that don't result in death.

I do, however, think it's logical to assume that because she has a prior history of child abuse, she's the person most likey to have caused Zahra's death.

JMO

raisincharlie
11-17-2010, 08:18 PM
Since I am throwing s-ghetti to see what sticks, does anyone believe it was a coincidence that AB was arrested in the wee hours of October 25th after reading Section d. of the defense's motion for bond reduction ?

I ask because Section d. says : "at approximately 9pm (Oct 24, 2010), Elisa Baker began to cooperate through her attorneys and investigator. Law enforcement was informed that Zahra Baker was deceased, that her body had been dismembered and that it would be recovered at different sites."

DLT88
11-17-2010, 08:22 PM
I think what gets me on this is having grown up in a very (VERY VERY) mentally and physically abusive abusive home.... no one noticed. Really. No one knew it. In fact, I was often labeled the "problem" child and was fiercely protective of my abuser. We lived in a tiny apartment too. My abusers abuse was so that ... most would think my abuser was trying to punish an unruly child. In fact, in some ways other family members including extended family outside of the home CONTRIBUTED to the abuse without even realizing it. It wasn't until I was well into adulthood did a family member (one of the ones who contributed in fact) looked at me and said "OH MY GOD... it's wasn't you." and I just looked at them and shook my head "No."
They then went on a tangent as things "clicked" in their heads. "Oh my GOD ... that one time that the abuser had me do this or that ....." and I just sat there and listened.

Wow, that makes me understand a bit of how Zahra must have felt as it seemed she also protected EB. I'm so sorry you grew up in such an environment. What a very tough childhood.

Kamille
11-17-2010, 08:25 PM
Since I am throwing s-ghetti to see what sticks, does anyone believe it was a coincidence that AB was arrested in the wee hours of October 25th after reading Section d. of the defense's motion for bond reduction ?

I ask because Section d. says : "at approximately 9pm (Oct 24, 2010), Elisa Baker began to cooperate through her attorneys and investigator. Law enforcement was informed that Zahra Baker was deceased, that her body had been dismembered and that it would be recovered at different sites."

Well didn't EB whine in one of her letters that LE had promised he would be be arrested for her safety? Okay so they kept their promise... she spilled and they arrested him. Unfortunately for EB he actually had people on the outside willing to bail him out. I guess LE neglected to mention that possibility to EB. :crazy:

MOO

raisincharlie
11-17-2010, 08:45 PM
Well didn't EB whine in one of her letters that LE had promised he would be be arrested for her safety? Okay so they kept their promise... she spilled and they arrested him. Unfortunately for EB he actually had people on the outside willing to bail him out. I guess LE neglected to mention that possibility to EB. :crazy:

MOO

I can't imagine how she could not feel safe from AB being locked up in protective custody. Just saying. :D

tlcya
11-17-2010, 08:49 PM
I have to say, ya'll raise a convincing argument. I am as close to the fence as is possible on AB's involvement and foreknowledge, without actually climing up a rung. (butt's still too sore from last fence I rode).

I aam really watching to see where LE and the DA are taking this case.

Mish
11-17-2010, 08:54 PM
Another thought:

I thought it was rather telling that EB's lawyers discussed whether or not she was thinking of filing for divorce from AB. I'm wondering if it might have something to do with laws regarding testimony of spouses???

MandyLeigh
11-17-2010, 08:57 PM
All you fence sitters keep on sitting. :) I am glad there are differences in opinions, it makes things more interesting.

As for me personally, I watched AB's interview with hope in finding a shred of doubt in my heart about his involvement. That didn't happen. :(

IMO it's a sad day when a father knows what horrific things happened to his child but keeps his mouth shut except to try and save his own behind. When you avoid direct questions, when you talk more about yourself then your dead child, when you wipe away non existent tears, when you show no anger or rage at your "baby" being dismembered... I have a problem.

He lived in that home. Zahra was his daughter. I just can't believe he didn't at least know what was going on with her and he did nothing about it. He knows what happened after her death but he keeps his mouth shut. I don't need details on his exact involvement as it makes him guilty enough to be punished. IMO

ynotdivein
11-17-2010, 11:40 PM
I know many will think this is just a sign of a well-coached potential suspect.

But that moment when the reporter asked him about EB's involvement, and his eyes darted immediately to his left, to his attorney...

That kind of said a lot to me.

EB is clearly going to throw AB under the bus.

In order to maintain the story that AB had nothing to do with it, he has to be very careful with what he says about what his relationship with EB was like and what he knew about her interactions with Zahra.

Very interested to see what happens in court tomorrow and the next several weeks.

Reannan
11-18-2010, 12:27 AM
AB's involvement has become a main focal point with this case. EB has clearly implicated him in public statements. She has taken LE to the places that Zahra's body was dumped, and she has stated AB was the one who dismembered her. Her own lawyers brought some sort of mysterious evidence to the police after her arrest that somehow validated her story. So why the He!! is he out walking around? What little evidence we have access to implicates AB!

Virgogalsue
11-18-2010, 12:34 AM
AB's involvement has become a main focal point with this case. EB has clearly implicated him in public statements. She has taken LE to the places that Zahra's body was dumped, and she has stated AB was the one who dismembered her. Her own lawyers brought some sort of mysterious evidence to the police after her arrest that somehow validated her story. So why the He!! is he out walking around? What little evidence we have access to implicates AB!

Today was so quiet...I am curious to see what the Judge has to say tomorrow, and whether they will appear together!!!!!!

tlcya
11-18-2010, 12:36 AM
What evidence? EB's story, while jailed on unrelated charges, with nothing else to back up her claim of his involvement? Leading LE to remains does not verify EB's claims that AB is involved in whatever way she says he is.

I feel he is definately culpible for what happened to Z no matter the level of his involvement. I think he may have been involved in disposal, and or coverup. I am not 100 percent certain. I AM 100% certain EB is in it up to her eyeballs. Why? Because the [person of unknown intelligence] told LE so herself!

Reannan
11-18-2010, 12:49 AM
Every time I listen to AB's 911 call, my blood boils! I have relatives that are very stoic and don't show a lot of emotion, so I totally get the "not showing emotions" thing. But you just discover your 10 year old daughter missing and you are as calm as if you are giving a weather forecast? AND, you add in little bits of flavoring to the 911 call about why you haven't seen your daughter in a while .... "she was 'coming into puberty' and was moody!" Really? Really? You daughter is freaking missing and you are going to complain about her bad attitude? :banghead::furious:

revampz
11-18-2010, 01:44 AM
the mai tn news headline here is that AB has been interviewed and said he had nothing to do with her death and wants to take her body back to Australia.
I assume you have already seen this....

I just dont know how he COULDNT have known she was gone.......if she had been missing for a couple of weeks as the police suspect, where did he think she was????? this alone makes me very suspicious of him, if she had been missing for a day or two then I could probably beleive him..........

The police have pulled apart that house as well so something must have happened in there, how does he explain not knowing what went on or being suspicious of new mattresses, his child not there etc........

and who did the dismembering???

no, I think he was telling the truth that he did not kill her or "do anything to hurt his baby" as he said in the interview, because she was dead already when he dismembered her.

Its going to be very hard to work out how she died.....

NoeticSoul
11-18-2010, 02:10 AM
I think the attorney probably provided him with a list of neutral words to use in his responses-very nice, appropriate, etc. knowing that every word he uttered during the interview would be examined.

However, Adam blew it with "fill the hole she left," instead of something like---an empty space in my heart, a hole in my heart etc.

ITA

BBM

I cannot get past his particular choice of words, specifically, AB's use of the word "left" to describe the action of his daughter's death. It's not as if Zahra chose to leave!

lauriej
11-18-2010, 02:55 AM
..i can't get over "fill the hole" ------when we know zahra's "remains" were dug up from a hole--------that LE has to fill in.

NoeticSoul
11-18-2010, 02:59 AM
..i can't get over "fill the hole" ------when we know zahra's "remains" were dug up from a hole--------that LE has to fill in.

Absolutely.. that too.

And then there's this:

Adam Baker: (shakes head) No. No, umm it's been very hard to try and grieve for my daughter.

Try?

I think his conscience (if he has one) is leaking out of his mouth hole...

Verity
11-18-2010, 03:04 AM
AB's involvement has become a main focal point with this case. EB has clearly implicated him in public statements. She has taken LE to the places that Zahra's body was dumped, and she has stated AB was the one who dismembered her. Her own lawyers brought some sort of mysterious evidence to the police after her arrest that somehow validated her story. So why the He!! is he out walking around? What little evidence we have access to implicates AB!

(graphic warning)

BBM. I think AB deserves to be in jail for all kinds of reasons, but if LE seriously thought he had murdered or dismembered his own daughter, I think he would already be off the streets and they would not have put the thought in ED's head that he may not have done it unless they had reason to think so. I think she arrived from Aus thinking he did do it, and it was LE who changed her mind, so that's the way it seems to be pointing, despite the rhetoric here. There's no other rational explanation.

So I'm in the camp that thinks there's a third person involved here, someone who is under the <modsnip> spell, who was called upon while AB was at work. I think she knew that was something AB could never do to his own child, because he was too weak, but I think he did know about her death long before it was reported.

JMOO

Mrs G Norris
11-18-2010, 04:06 AM
I think his conscience (if he has one) is leaking out of his mouth hole...

*snipped and BBM

OK OK I admit it ... there is one thing I like about Adam Baker.

He leaks like a sieve.

*Brilliant!*

CarmelEyesD
11-18-2010, 05:33 AM
Just because EB said AB did it, does not mean he did. LE would need proof he knew and was involved in order to arrest him. I did catch the part he said about he wouldn't hurt his baby-well, if she was dead already, nothing was going to hurt her. And I know I would be able to grieve, regardless of what names people were calling me. But none of that means he did it...

netsleuther
11-18-2010, 08:00 AM
Just because EB said AB did it, does not mean he did. LE would need proof he knew and was involved in order to arrest him. I did catch the part he said about he wouldn't hurt his baby-well, if she was dead already, nothing was going to hurt her. And I know I would be able to grieve, regardless of what names people were calling me. But none of that means he did it...

LE would be blowing the case if they arrest someone before all the DNA tests come back and before all evidence is processed or evaluated properly including possible cause of death or actual cause of death.

At the end of the day, it will be a good day if LE know or at least have a bloody good idea who would have killed Z and who would have contributed or conspired. It would be the biggest shame in the world if LE jumped the gun and made arrests for murder if they did not have a case ready to fire at whoever did kill Z. Regardless of who it was.

I am all for seeing LE not stuff this case up and all for seeing or at least finding out who done it and who thinks they are flying under the radar.

Even if it takes LE a long time it will be good when they bring someone or someone plus other/s to justice for killing a kid and throwing her away.

netsleuther
11-18-2010, 08:29 AM
I agree. I think he is equally involved. Drug fiends, poor life skills, obviously very poor parenting skills...(if any). The look I see on his face is a 'deer in the headlights'.. He sees the train coming down the tracks right towards him and he is stuck. No passport, nowhere to run, nowhere to hide..He is just following his attorneys instructions and cues. His mum doesn't get 'mother of the year' award either, IMO.

His mum would have got mother of the year award if she could have stopped him and Z leaving the country with EB in the first place. Although as a mum she can only do so much to intervene or pass comments about a new lover in his life without wearing the rough end of the stick and fighting with a happy couple, a single man who just found love off the internet.

KB lost contact with AB and his lovely wife long time ago and it is only this tragedy that has brought AB's mum back in his life. KB is a good mother and it is not her fault AB left with EB and became part of her world. But at least she is willing to be there for AB now and IMO she has done her best to support him.

Clue Hopper
11-18-2010, 08:35 AM
His mum would have got mother of the year award if she could have stopped him and Z leaving the country with EB in the first place. Although as a mum she can only do so much to intervene or pass comments about a new lover in his life without wearing the rough end of the stick and fighting with a happy couple, a single man who just found love off the internet.

KB lost contact with AB and his lovely wife long time ago and it is only this tragedy that has brought AB's mum back in his life. KB is a good mother and it is not her fault AB left with EB and became part of her world. But at least she is willing to be there for AB now and IMO she has done her best to support him.

I completely and totally agree.

Belinda
11-18-2010, 09:16 AM
If AB were totally innocent, wouldn't the natural thing to do be to go to the jail and rip EB a new one and ask her what the hell she did with/to his daughter? Clearly, if he doesn't know, he knows she does, but hasn't been in contact with her. Very odd.

Clue Hopper
11-18-2010, 09:22 AM
If AB were totally innocent, wouldn't the natural thing to do be to go to the jail and rip EB a new one and ask her what the hell she did with/to his daughter? Clearly, if he doesn't know, he knows she does, but hasn't been in contact with her. Very odd.

Not odd at all. You could ask the same thing about ED. You would have the same answer. LE recommends you do not associate with or have contact with persons of interest. Imagine one of them visiting and a rage comes out and they attempt to do harm to her. That does not look good at all for anyone. I have no doubt in my mind that if ED had visited her, she would not have been able to control herself. JMO.

I do question AB's trusting and contact with some individuals though. JMO.

Clue Hopper
11-18-2010, 09:44 AM
Let's do a flip of the coin here. It is far fetched and way out there. Just speculation. What if there was an accident. AB was working in the yard. ZB was out there and somehow got seriously hurt. No medical insurance, AB on an expired visa looking at deportation. Signs of abuse already on ZB. Now EB says she will take care of ZB. The injury was to great. ZB succumbed to it. Now for clean up. In her mind, comes kidnapping. Now she needs to get rid of the body. She wants to make it look good. The dismemberment is the leg. It is tossed near the prosthetic. The prosthetic needs to look as though it went through trauma too. It is broken apart. Now who to make look like they did it. Some disgruntled worker. Now to make it seem as though something horrific happened. Set it up to look as though she went through the chipper. Bury the rest of the remains together in a different location. Now set in motion with a fake ransom note and fire. None of it went as planned. LE and Fire did not ask if there were anyone else living in the home. Now they needed to go to plan B. (Yes I said they meaning AB) They plan out what to say and call 911. They did not plan on LE looking so closely at the ransom note. It showed EB wrote it. She had to admit to it. AB did not stand up for her and he was walking free. Now EB is mad. She is not going down alone. She tried to save them both and now he is walking free. No way. Now she leads them to where it is all in AB's name. He did this and he did that. The only thing is the dismemberment and dumping was all EB and she is having a harder time placing AB in that. Total speculation and flip of the coin here.

Mountain_Kat
11-18-2010, 10:41 AM
Let's do a flip of the coin here. It is far fetched and way out there. Just speculation. What if there was an accident. AB was working in the yard. ZB was out there and somehow got seriously hurt. No medical insurance, AB on an expired visa looking at deportation. Signs of abuse already on ZB. Now EB says she will take care of ZB. The injury was to great. ZB succumbed to it. Now for clean up. In her mind, comes kidnapping. Now she needs to get rid of the body. She wants to make it look good. The dismemberment is the leg. It is tossed near the prosthetic. The prosthetic needs to look as though it went through trauma too. It is broken apart. Now who to make look like they did it. Some disgruntled worker. Now to make it seem as though something horrific happened. Set it up to look as though she went through the chipper. Bury the rest of the remains together in a different location. Now set in motion with a fake ransom note and fire. None of it went as planned. LE and Fire did not ask if there were anyone else living in the home. Now they needed to go to plan B. (Yes I said they meaning AB) They plan out what to say and call 911. They did not plan on LE looking so closely at the ransom note. It showed EB wrote it. She had to admit to it. AB did not stand up for her and he was walking free. Now EB is mad. She is not going down alone. She tried to save them both and now he is walking free. No way. Now she leads them to where it is all in AB's name. He did this and he did that. The only thing is the dismemberment and dumping was all EB and she is having a harder time placing AB in that. Total speculation and flip of the coin here.

How would this explain LE searching for the mattress, removing drywall and flooring from Zahra's bedroom?

Kamille
11-18-2010, 10:47 AM
If AB were totally innocent, wouldn't the natural thing to do be to go to the jail and rip EB a new one and ask her what the hell she did with/to his daughter? Clearly, if he doesn't know, he knows she does, but hasn't been in contact with her. Very odd.

He supposedly tried to get in to see her right after her arrest, along with her daughter AF, but apparently they did not get in for that visit.

There have been no media reports of any other times since then when his name appeared on the visitor list.

Clue Hopper
11-18-2010, 10:56 AM
How would this explain LE searching for the mattress, removing drywall and flooring from Zahra's bedroom?

She dismembered the leg there.

Who knows all of what she told them. I am just throwing a flip of a coin speculation of a different kind of theory. Sometimes if you look at something a little differently, something else becomes clearer. I'm not saying this is what happened, like Monk. I'm just throwing something fresh out there to see if something else clicks with someone else.

passionflower
11-18-2010, 11:12 AM
IMO, if AB were innocent (LIKE MARK K, Lunsford) he would be out there begging,
pleading and crying from day1.
He would do anything to have LE look away from him.
I never even saw a REAL TEARDROP!!!
Says allot to me, what AB really is...........a manipulater and thug just like EB.

Kamille
11-18-2010, 11:30 AM
She dismembered the leg there.

Who knows all of what she told them. I am just throwing a flip of a coin speculation of a different kind of theory. Sometimes if you look at something a little differently, something else becomes clearer. I'm not saying this is what happened, like Monk. I'm just throwing something fresh out there to see if something else clicks with someone else.

It is good to get different theories and look at things differently Clue Hopper...thank you. One thing I noted in your theory is about AB's legal and probable immigation issues and how calling the authorities regarding Zahra's death might have affected that. EB would have known about these issues and that he would have been found and have to face the legal charges and possibly deported regarding the immigration issues. But she did call in the authorities for the fire and the kidnapping caper so she wasn't try to save him from anything. She had to have known that both of AB's issues would be discovered at that point. She also would have known that this call would lead to her being found by the authorities and having to face her own legal charges.

What I'd be interested to know is what she asked of BB regarding the legal issue during the phone call on Oct 8th. Was she only asking BB to drop the charges on her? Saying that it was really all AB's idea to chase them down and threaten them so it should only be him that was charged? Was she already throwing him under the bus knowing that he'd eventually be deported?

So if she killed and disposed of Zahra alone or with outside help and got away with that with the "brilliant kidnapping plan", AB would likely have spent some time in jail on his threat charges and then would have been deported. Even if she had to do a bit of time on the threat charges because BB didn't budge on dropping the charges on her, in the end, she would be free to move on. So she called in the authorities instead of just packing up and moving on with AB again. I could never understand why they didn't just do that and continue to lie to family about Zahra's whereabouts.

Just another angle to throw out there.

MOO

Clue Hopper
11-18-2010, 11:56 AM
It is good to get different theories and look at things differently Clue Hopper...thank you. One thing I noted in your theory is about AB's legal and probable immigation issues and how calling the authorities regarding Zahra's death might have affected that. EB would have known about these issues and that he would have been found and have to face the legal charges and possibly deported regarding the immigration issues. But she did call in the authorities for the fire and the kidnapping caper so she wasn't try to save him from anything. She had to have known that both of AB's issues would be discovered at that point. She also would have known that this call would lead to her being found by the authorities and having to face her own legal charges.

What I'd be interested to know is what she asked of BB regarding the legal issue during the phone call on Oct 8th. Was she only asking BB to drop the charges on her? Saying that it was really all AB's idea to chase them down and threaten them so it should only be him that was charged? Was she already throwing him under the bus knowing that he'd eventually be deported?

So if she killed and disposed of Zahra alone or with outside help and got away with that with the "brilliant kidnapping plan", AB would likely have spent some time in jail on his threat charges and then would have been deported. Even if she had to do a bit of time on the threat charges because BB didn't budge on dropping the charges on her, in the end, she would be free to move on. So she called in the authorities instead of just packing up and moving on with AB again. I could never understand why they didn't just do that and continue to lie to family about Zahra's whereabouts.

Just another angle to throw out there.

MOO

Almost as though a way of getting out from under them both and being free of it all.

tlcya
11-18-2010, 12:54 PM
I am wondering about the dumpster that the matress was placed in. Do we have any links or info via EB's letters, attorney motions, etc telling us what specific dumpster the mattress was supposedly dumped in or its location?

I can't get past the witnesses at the (sawmills I think) Mobile Home Park (the one with the hill, previous address) who claim to have seen BOTH AB and EB at the MHP at night lurking about near the dumpster.

Will have to go searching for links when I get home from work today.

If the mattress was left in the dumpster at that MHP and the neighbors witness BOTH the Bakers near the dumpster area then that to means AB has some splaining to do RE: why was Zahra's matress being got rid of? Where was Zahra supposedly at while they were galavanting round town fly dumping mattress late at night? Did they leave her at home alone unsupervised with her brooding and her stomach virus?

all moo specuation. Later on tonight I intend to try to find some answers to those and more questions.

ETA Okay, my bad, links below show mattress was located near 21st street address

Which to me indicates it could have been wrestled over and into dumpster by one person or two and does nothing to help me prove one way or another if AB was part of that process. sigh.

Mountain_Kat
11-18-2010, 01:00 PM
I am wondering about the dumpster that the matress was placed in. Do we have any links or info via EB's letters, attorney motions, etc telling us what specific dumpster the mattress was supposedly dumped in or its location?

I can't get past the witnesses at the (sawmills I think) Mobile Home Park (the one with the hill, previous address) who claim to have seen BOTH AB and EB at the MHP at night lurking about near the dumpster.

Will have to go searching for links when I get home from work today.

If the mattress was left in the dumpster at that MHP and the neighbors witness BOTH the Bakers near the dumpster area then that to means AB has some splaining to do RE: why was Zahra's matress being got rid of? Where was Zahra supposedly at while they were galavanting round town fly dumping mattress late at night? Did they leave her at home alone unsupervised with her brooding and her stomach virus?

all moo specuation. Later on tonight I intend to try to find some answers to those and more questions.

I'm almost certain I read somewhere (please don't ask me where, I'm still trying to track down other links!), that LE took the dumpster itself into evidence.

Wondering if anyone else recalls reading that. :waitasec:

ETA: If my memory serves, it was one of the dumpsters behind the house. You can see those in SherlockHomey or Punknluvs pics.

Lera213
11-18-2010, 01:06 PM
I am so upset that Adam is still out and his attorney is playing him up as a victim. I wanted to PUKE when I read this by his attorney:


His attorney, Mark Killian, told reporters after the hearing Thursday morning that Adam Baker "is doing as well as could be expected."

When asked if he will make Baker available to reporters, Killian responded, "He wants time to grieve and absorb all that's happened."



Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/11/18/811205/bakers-dont-appear-in-court-for.html#ixzz15ee9q6zU

Kamille
11-18-2010, 01:11 PM
I am wondering about the dumpster that the matress was placed in. Do we have any links or info via EB's letters, attorney motions, etc telling us what specific dumpster the mattress was supposedly dumped in or its location?

I can't get past the witnesses at the (sawmills I think) Mobile Home Park (the one with the hill, previous address) who claim to have seen BOTH AB and EB at the MHP at night lurking about near the dumpster.

Will have to go searching for links when I get home from work today.

If the mattress was left in the dumpster at that MHP and the neighbors witness BOTH the Bakers near the dumpster area then that to means AB has some splaining to do RE: why was Zahra's matress being got rid of? Where was Zahra supposedly at while they were galavanting round town fly dumping mattress late at night? Did they leave her at home alone unsupervised with her brooding and her stomach virus?

all moo specuation. Later on tonight I intend to try to find some answers to those and more questions.

Here is a link to one story but because these news websites just keep updating, we have to figure out when the original story was posted and when the "three weeks ago" would be.

Meanwhile, the residents of a trailer park in Caldwell County where Zahra lived until mid-summer are still hoping the girl will be found alive, but they admit that hope is fading. Search teams combed the woods around the trailer park last Wednesday.

"They need to come back and do some more," said Tabitha Haas.

Haas said Adam and Elisa Baker were spotted in the neighborhood about three weeks ago.

"They came here at night," Haas said.

Peggy Johnson claims a few days later, "the most awful smell was coming up out of the manhole in my yard."

She said authorities lifted the lid and looked inside, but only for a few seconds.

"They's another manhole in the holler that they need to come back and look at," Johnson said.

The place she talked about is hidden in a valley area behind a vacant trailer. It is in the same area where the couple was spotted.

http://www.wbtv.com/global/story.asp?s=13297637

Mountain_Kat
11-18-2010, 01:11 PM
Okay, here we go (thanks Owl!):

Pertaining to dumpster taken into evidence...

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NC - Zahra Clare Baker, 10, Hickory, 9 Oct 2010 - #8

tehcloser
11-18-2010, 01:17 PM
The document says Baker also directed investigators to other sites where possible evidence was located, including the dumpster where Zahra's mattress was discarded and undisclosed items found at the family's home.

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/15/1841291/court-documents-zahra-was-dismembered.html#ixzz15eh5AOTB

tlcya
11-18-2010, 01:19 PM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Zahra Baker's Possible Cause(s) of Death

dumpster taken from near 21st street baker residence.

truckengirl
11-18-2010, 01:32 PM
I feel that they are both involved and that neither of them are smart enough to have cleaned their fingerprints off all the items that have been recovered such as the dumpster. I just dont think EB is smart enough to have done the dismemberment and getting rid of the evidence all by herself without AB knowing.

westsidefox64
11-18-2010, 01:46 PM
BBM

I think the time frame (3 hours, according to when AB last saw Z and when the cars were seized) is enough for me to believe she couldn't possibly act alone. I think Z was dead and the act was done days before they came up with the kidnapping plan.

It's tough because we really don't know what type of man AB is. We've heard all the horror stories about EB, but what about Adam? We know he tried to run people off the road, that shows he may be capable of murder. He may have a secret violent side that nobody knew about.

I just don't feel in my heart EB acted alone and AB didn't notice one strange thing. Also, the fact that he chopped things up for a living, doesn't sit well with me either. I suppose with his line of work he would know how to go about dismembering things.

RBBM
I have looked at this post several times thinking something wasnt right about it. The cars were not taken at the time of the fire. That would have been the 3 hour point. IIRC they were taken after the dogs hit on them which was after Adams 911 call. JMO

the seeker
11-18-2010, 01:58 PM
Just some thoughts
Usually you have a number of gel liners in varying degrees of thickness to help with the increase/decrease in the prosthetic fitting, daughter has 10 ie. fluid retention / swelling
Defense motion = strategic manoeuvring
Obtaining significant evidence- I suspect they may not of known exactly what they were going to find just the area/place to look. Whether this compromises the investigation etc do not know possibilities
are endless
The previous address and Monty Carlo keep coming back to me
The very careful wording of the press conference especially the swabs of both bio parents unless needed something to fill in at the PC
I seriously doubt they had access to the hickory address or would bother with the landfill. I would suspect the previous address or another location
Hardware of the prosthesis contains the means of the identification not the liners i.e. socket joints, daughters new joints actually come from Germany
AB's defense taking own pictures of various places around the hickory address means AB defense focusing on specifics as were there for relatively short time
Believe EB could of done this probable though had help. Part that has me is that only was person was seen sitting on steps not two
Dogs hitting on both vehicles if EB was in both one to dispose one to plant letter and gasoline
So far all about EB from what i see not AB at least this portion. Could be waiting on results MOO


BBM:

I just curious, what do you make out of that 911 call then? Do you really think that AB didnt know the ransom note was fake? Not attacking, just curious what your take is on those things that are so convincing to me.

Mountain_Kat
11-18-2010, 02:03 PM
I am wondering about the dumpster that the matress was placed in. Do we have any links or info via EB's letters, attorney motions, etc telling us what specific dumpster the mattress was supposedly dumped in or its location?

I can't get past the witnesses at the (sawmills I think) Mobile Home Park (the one with the hill, previous address) who claim to have seen BOTH AB and EB at the MHP at night lurking about near the dumpster.

Will have to go searching for links when I get home from work today.

If the mattress was left in the dumpster at that MHP and the neighbors witness BOTH the Bakers near the dumpster area then that to means AB has some splaining to do RE: why was Zahra's matress being got rid of? Where was Zahra supposedly at while they were galavanting round town fly dumping mattress late at night? Did they leave her at home alone unsupervised with her brooding and her stomach virus?

all moo specuation. Later on tonight I intend to try to find some answers to those and more questions.

ETA Okay, my bad, links below show mattress was located near 21st street address

Which to me indicates it could have been wrestled over and into dumpster by one person or two and does nothing to help me prove one way or another if AB was part of that process. sigh.

Maybe not, but the fact that the mattress may have been discarded in the dumpster directly behind the house DOES bring me straight back to AB's irrelevant statements to 911 operator about Zahra having entered puberty. :waitasec:

ETA: Even if he knew that the mattress was gone from the dumpster by the time the 911 call was made, he would certainly know that the dumpster (and possibly blood evidence) might still be sitting right out in plain view.

raisincharlie
11-18-2010, 02:35 PM
After watching the raw footage of AB's interview, all I can say is he denies having dismembered Zahra, but not once does he deny having killed her. He only denies ever hurting her and I'll just leave it at that.

Bia.
11-18-2010, 02:44 PM
I really wish there was a place in me that could believe or at least feel he was some what innocent, but there isn't. I've gone through every scenario in my head and at the end of the day, he is always involved in some aspect.

I don't believe EB is fully capable of doing all that was done by herself. I also don't believe someone is that detached from their family/home that they didn't notice a crime scene taking place.

According to AB, both him and EB "slept in" the day Z went "missing". So, if he saw her at 2AM that morning and EB was in bed next to him the entire time (after the fire of course), how did she go about driving around the County disposing of body parts?

It's just such a bizarre story on his end, JMHO.

april_showers
11-18-2010, 02:52 PM
BBM:

I just curious, what do you make out of that 911 call then? Do you really think that AB didnt know the ransom note was fake? Not attacking, just curious what your take is on those things that are so convincing to me.

I know this question wasn't directed towards me, but I'm chiming in anyway... =)

At this point, I'm still one of those undecided fence sitters as far as who did what, but I will concede that the 911 call was not typical of a panicked father. That brings most of us to the conclusion of his obvious involvement, but there is still that tiny part of me that doubts and wonders about possible alternate scenarios.

IF (and I'm not saying I believe this), but IF EB were entirely culpable, and possibly setting up AB, perhaps she convinced him to go along with a fake kidnapping? I'm picturing some type of "Zahra's fine, she's over at [insert random family member]. Just go along with this, and we'll be able to get some cash from your jerk of a boss." Desperate for money, not very bright... not an entirely implausible scenario, IMO. Expect EB was also using this as an opportunity to remove her culpability for a larger crime, unbeknownst to AB?

Ok, I know I'm stretching a bit... Just throwing that out there though....

Kamille
11-18-2010, 02:56 PM
Maybe not, but the fact that the mattress may have been discarded in the dumpster directly behind the house DOES bring me straight back to AB's irrelevant statements to 911 operator about Zahra having entered puberty. :waitasec:

ETA: Even if he knew that the mattress was gone from the dumpster by the time the 911 call was made, he would certainly know that the dumpster (and possibly blood evidence) might still be sitting right out in plain view.

:waitasec:

I thought it had been established that the mattress was found in the landfill that picks up dumpsters from Caldwell County. The Hickory house is in Catawba County and the trash from those dumpsters goes elsewhere. Because of this, the mattress could not have been put in the dumpster at the restaurant near the house.

MOO

the seeker
11-18-2010, 03:01 PM
I know this question wasn't directed towards me, but I'm chiming in anyway... =)

At this point, I'm still one of those undecided fence sitters as far as who did what, but I will concede that the 911 call was not typical of a panicked father. That brings most of us to the conclusion of his obvious involvement, but there is still that tiny part of me that doubts and wonders about possible alternate scenarios.

IF (and I'm not saying I believe this), but IF EB were entirely culpable, and possibly setting up AB, perhaps she convinced him to go along with a fake kidnapping? I'm picturing some type of "Zahra's fine, she's over at [insert random family member]. Just go along with this, and we'll be able to get some cash from your jerk of a boss." Desperate for money, not very bright... not an entirely implausible scenario, IMO. Expect EB was also using this as an opportunity to remove her culpability for a larger crime, unbeknownst to AB?

Ok, I know I'm stretching a bit... Just throwing that out there though....

Thank you. I guess a scenario like yours is possible...especially if AB isnt very bright. I just happen to think that EB is lacking in brightness too, so I dont think she would think of something like that, but I could be very wrong...she is a con artist and a speaker of lies (sounds better than calling her a liar, and Im not sure why I care about what I call her), so I suppose it is possible. Interesting, thanks!

Mountain_Kat
11-18-2010, 03:04 PM
:waitasec:

I thought it had been established that the mattress was found in the landfill that picks up dumpsters from Caldwell County. The Hickory house is in Catawba County and the trash from those dumpsters goes elsewhere. Because of this, the mattress could not have been put in the dumpster at the restaurant near the house.

MOO

Well, it COULD have been put in the dumpster and removed later. But I see what you're saying. Good point.

raisincharlie
11-18-2010, 03:28 PM
:waitasec:

I thought it had been established that the mattress was found in the landfill that picks up dumpsters from Caldwell County. The Hickory house is in Catawba County and the trash from those dumpsters goes elsewhere. Because of this, the mattress could not have been put in the dumpster at the restaurant near the house.

MOO

I don't believe that is the case. The facility is titled as Foothills Regional Landfill. In 2005 this landfill serviced 11 NC counties. In 2006 they filed for a permit to expand the landfill service to 25 NC counties. Don't know if that was approved or not, but it remains, the landfill is regional and not limited to Caldwell County only. See attached:

http://www.wastenotnc.org/swhome/caldwellfactsheetrev.pdf

Lera213
11-18-2010, 03:32 PM
I think the dumpster is a moot point for fingerprints. How many of you touch a dumpster? I'm picturing me and someone else lifting a mattress into a dumpster, my body might brush up against it, but since I'm holding on to the mattress to dump it, my fingers would not be on the dumpster.

Wise Old Owl
11-18-2010, 03:43 PM
I think the dumpster is a moot point for fingerprints. How many of you touch a dumpster? I'm picturing me and someone else lifting a mattress into a dumpster, my body might brush up against it, but since I'm holding on to the mattress to dump it, my fingers would not be on the dumpster.
True but if said dumpster had one of those lids that have to lifted and thrown back - now there would be fingerprints there I suspect.

vjlaw
11-18-2010, 03:45 PM
It has been quite awhile since I have hauled a twin-sized mattress, but I a pretty sure I didn't do it using a regular car. I think if the mattress was moved anywhere other than close to the house the Tahoe was used. If it was carried to the dumpster, it would have to be done when they were sure no one would see them do it. I think that was in the middle of the night. I just can't see AB not knowing what was going on. jmo

Lera213
11-18-2010, 03:48 PM
True but if said dumpster had one of those lids that have to lifted and thrown back - now there would be fingerprints there I suspect.

Yes, but it was over a week before they found it, I'm thinking the next garbage pick up, or other's using it might have wiped those away. A bunch of IF'S here.

Mountain_Kat
11-18-2010, 03:52 PM
I don't believe that is the case. The facility is titled as Foothills Regional Landfill. In 2005 this landfill serviced 11 NC counties. In 2006 they filed for a permit to expand the landfill service to 25 NC counties. Don't know if that was approved or not, but it remains, the landfill is regional and not limited to Caldwell County only. See attached:

http://www.wastenotnc.org/swhome/caldwellfactsheetrev.pdf

Bless your cotton socks! :blowkiss:

Kamille
11-18-2010, 04:41 PM
I don't believe that is the case. The facility is titled as Foothills Regional Landfill. In 2005 this landfill serviced 11 NC counties. In 2006 they filed for a permit to expand the landfill service to 25 NC counties. Don't know if that was approved or not, but it remains, the landfill is regional and not limited to Caldwell County only. See attached:

http://www.wastenotnc.org/swhome/caldwellfactsheetrev.pdf

According to this article authorities seemed to indicate that it did not service Catawba county.


The latest search began Thursday morning at the Foothills Environmental Landfill, on Cheraw Road in Lenoir. Authorities say it receives trash from Burke, Caldwell and McDowell counties.

While Zahra Baker's most recent residence was in Catawba County, her family lived in Caldwell County before moving to Hickory, and her father, Adam, works for a company that owns property in Burke County. At least three searches have been conducted at the Burke County property.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/20/1774887/investigators-search-landfill.html

neicee7681
11-18-2010, 10:51 PM
I have been following this case for a while, but haven't posted anything yet. But I have to say that after seeing the interview of AB, I am convinced that he was involved. I don't know to what extent, but I am sure that he was involved in dismemberment at the least. I don't know how somebody can be so calm about their child being killed. If that was me, I would be hysterical. Hopefully LE will be able to determine how long Zahra was deceased. That would tell if AB at least knew about what happened.

tlcya
11-18-2010, 10:58 PM
thank you and welcome niecee :) So glad you decided to share your thoughts with us. You share the same puzzle that many of us do, if AB is involved, to what extent. It is a source of great debate, and you are right, mostly because we have no approximate time of death and therefore, it is dificult to rule him out or guage his level of lnvolvement.

Hope to read more from you in days to come.

panthera
11-18-2010, 11:01 PM
I have been following this case for a while, but haven't posted anything yet. But I have to say that after seeing the interview of AB, I am convinced that he was involved. I don't know to what extent, but I am sure that he was involved in dismemberment at the least. I don't know how somebody can be so calm about their child being killed. If that was me, I would be hysterical. Hopefully LE will be able to determine how long Zahra was deceased. That would tell if AB at least knew about what happened.

Welcome! :)

One thing that has troubled me, is how could someone be involved in dismembering their own child, and not be involved in the child's death? Wouldn't that person have to at least agree to the death, meaning justify it in their own mind? It's just beyond my comprehension. MOO

LiveLaughLuv
11-19-2010, 09:05 AM
I want to know the last time AB physically saw Zahra, not just peeked into her room!

Seems no one can say they saw Zahra other than family after that September 25th furniture store sighting. What happened between then and the 911 call on October 9th?? How could AB not see what went on in Zahras' room, especially since so much was removed, the walls, the drain, the mattress...where the heck was AB during this??:banghead:

Justice for Zahra

ynotdivein
11-19-2010, 09:48 AM
I want to know the last time AB physically saw Zahra, not just peeked into her room!

Seems no one can say they saw Zahra other than family after that September 25th furniture store sighting. What happened between then and the 911 call on October 9th?? How could AB not see what went on in Zahras' room, especially since so much was removed, the walls, the drain, the mattress...where the heck was AB during this??:banghead:

Justice for Zahra

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25360091/index.html

Remember when AB said the last time he "100%" "genuinely" saw Zahra "out of bed" was Tuesday?

And then the reporter had to come back to it and correct him to Thursday?

And we all went :waitasec:?

Mountain_Kat
11-19-2010, 10:22 AM
http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25360091/index.html

Remember when AB said the last time he "100%" "genuinely" saw Zahra "out of bed" was Tuesday?

And then the reporter had to come back to it and correct him to Thursday?

And we all went :waitasec:?

"100% genuinely saw her?"

Wow...curious choice of words, no? As apposed to the last time he disingenuously saw her? :waitasec:

tlcya
11-19-2010, 10:25 AM
or 79% saw her?

Mountain_Kat
11-19-2010, 10:27 AM
or 79% saw her?

Exactly. You either see someone or you don't. There is no, "I 50% saw them on Thurs."

He's just freakin' ridiculous.

tlcya
11-19-2010, 10:27 AM
sigh. this case MK.

It's gonna be a soup day, I can tell.

tlcya
11-19-2010, 10:29 AM
Anyone know when the GJ convenes/convened? I thought earlier in the week there was talk that there was to be a GJ convened and DA was assembling evidence to present re Zahra? Am I losing it or did that come up? I haven't heard another word about it.

Mountain_Kat
11-19-2010, 10:29 AM
sigh. this case MK.

It's gonna be a soup day, I can tell.

O/T

I wish it was a soup day. For me it's GYN day. But after that...definitely soup. Lots and lots of soup.

darnudes
11-19-2010, 11:20 AM
Welcome! :)

One thing that has troubled me, is how could someone be involved in dismembering their own child, and not be involved in the child's death? Wouldn't that person have to at least agree to the death, meaning justify it in their own mind? It's just beyond my comprehension. MOO

Exactly! :)

It puzzles me exceedingly that people need to (for whatever reason) make this case so complicated. It really is a very simple case in my opinion. Someone/s went too far in their usual beating of Zahra - I don't think they meant to kill Zahra. When some people commit this sort of crime they will often go to extensive lengths to cover it up.

You know, such as dismembering a body, scattering body pieces, digging graves, dumping mattresses, painting over blood splatters, lighting fires then calling 911, writing fake ransom notes, report said child as missing resulting in amber alert, nil confrontation with person in custody and then feign ignorance.

There is one reason and one reason only for people to go to these lengths, they were in on it together and no one can ever see the body of the child, because then we would know what happened.

rbrnmw2
11-19-2010, 12:07 PM
I really wish there was a place in me that could believe or at least feel he was some what innocent, but there isn't. I've gone through every scenario in my head and at the end of the day, he is always involved in some aspect.

I don't believe EB is fully capable of doing all that was done by herself. I also don't believe someone is that detached from their family/home that they didn't notice a crime scene taking place.

According to AB, both him and EB "slept in" the day Z went "missing". So, if he saw her at 2AM that morning and EB was in bed next to him the entire time (after the fire of course), how did she go about driving around the County disposing of body parts?

It's just such a bizarre story on his end, JMHO.


****MOO****

I think she could have done it alone Look she had 2 husbands living across the street from each other. She obviously was telling lots of lies to AB and she was getting help from her "other" husband to deceive AB into thinking he was her brother this is not a stupid woman IMO I think she is evil and conniving but not too stupid to do this w/o AB's help

DLT88
11-19-2010, 05:05 PM
http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25360091/index.html

Remember when AB said the last time he "100%" "genuinely" saw Zahra "out of bed" was Tuesday?

And then the reporter had to come back to it and correct him to Thursday?

And we all went :waitasec:?

Does that "100%" bother anyone else? It's like 'Yes, I saw her, before she was dismembered into many pieces, on Tuesday'. What's with the 100% comment if you weren't thinking of your child as a whole piece? It's creepy. I tend to like to think he is innocent, but he says some very strange things. Or maybe he wanted to say 'I was 100% sure I saw her on Tuesday'. Who knows.

DLT88
11-19-2010, 05:12 PM
****MOO****

I think she could have done it alone Look she had 2 husbands living across the street from each other. She obviously was telling lots of lies to AB and she was getting help from her "other" husband to deceive AB into thinking he was her brother this is not a stupid woman IMO I think she is evil and conniving but not too stupid to do this w/o AB's help

I, too, think she has a very high level of deceipt and evil inside her -- enough to do the whole thing. Now....refresh my memory somebody please....wasn't it said that AB was 'out of town' some days before Zahra's 'disappearance'? Was it a business trip and what days was he gone? I could see EB killing Zahra and dismembering her all on her own. Zahra was small, and not a large adult so I could see her handling it. Still, I try and comprehend how AB could be so clueless about the whole thing.......A father coming home from a business trip will usually look for their child first thing. My father was distant, but if he didn't see all 3 of us kids in the first 10 minutes after he came home, he wanted to know where we were because he cared where his children were.

tlcya
11-19-2010, 05:32 PM
We really have no info on where AB was spending his time in the days prior to to Z's reported Kidnap.

At varrying points in this story we've heard he was out of town, out working late hours, etc.

We have even heard varrying reports on when he last set eyes on her as Tuesday, thursday, 2 am , etc.

I can't keep all the differing info straight. It seems to depend on who you talk to what day.

When Z went missing he was

a) asleep

b) checking out a job

c) working in the backyard

and who knows where else. I just give up. Hoping TOD and COD are coming soon from ME, or if COD is undetermined then at least a TOD so I can figure out which way is up!

docwho3
11-19-2010, 07:43 PM
There are certain things they might have needed to purchase in quantity in order
to dispose of the body the way I think they did. Following the financial transactions
might give them a fairly close time frame for Zahra's death.

However I think I have read somewhere that Elisa used some aliases so she might have
credit cards or bank cards or checks in other names. I do have confidence that LE will eventually
track down that info, if there is any truth to those reports, and follow the money.

Bia.
11-19-2010, 08:01 PM
****MOO****

I think she could have done it alone Look she had 2 husbands living across the street from each other. She obviously was telling lots of lies to AB and she was getting help from her "other" husband to deceive AB into thinking he was her brother this is not a stupid woman IMO I think she is evil and conniving but not too stupid to do this w/o AB's help

I agree that she is evil and conniving, but again, how can a man be so distanced from his family that he didn't notice a crime scene in his very own home? Floor boards & sink taken, walls cut up, floors cut up, etc. There is no way he didn't notice something going on. And to not see your own daughter for days, there's something wrong there. Did he even go in her room to say "hi" at the very least? Or was she really locked up 24-7? Did he not notice a brand new mattress being bought and put in her room? Why not ask what the mattress was for? Where's her old one? Better yet, where is ZAHRA?

Either way you look at it, he should be charged with neglect at the least.

westsidefox64
11-19-2010, 08:05 PM
I have a question im not sure anyone can answer. Does anyone know for sure how big the matress was? If it was a full sized it would be hard for one person to dispose of but if it was a twin or a futon not so much. JMO

nomoresorrow
11-19-2010, 08:06 PM
Does that "100%" bother anyone else? It's like 'Yes, I saw her, before she was dismembered into many pieces, on Tuesday'. What's with the 100% comment if you weren't thinking of your child as a whole piece? It's creepy. I tend to like to think he is innocent, but he says some very strange things. Or maybe he wanted to say 'I was 100% sure I saw her on Tuesday'. Who knows.

I also find AB's comment, beginning at the 1:16 mark, interesting: "I know there was a fire in the yard and...we went back to bed. I got up and went to work. We didn't get to bed til 7:30 that morning. I had to go...get some kind of sleep."

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25360091/index.html

Okay, so the fire department responded to the fire at 5:20 am that morning (Saturday, 10/9) so what exactly was AB doing before that, if he wasn't sleeping? Have I missed a statement made elsewhere by AB that explains his whereabouts late Friday night (10/8) and into the early morning hours - before the fire was reported at 5:20 am on Saturday? I noticed that he also includes EB when he says; "We didn't get to bed...", so what exactly were the both of them doing up until the time when the backyard fire was called in? Something tells me I'm going to regret asking this question... :waitasec:Does it rhyme with perk? :banghead:
TIA!

ETA: And yes DLT88, I find his choice - now knowing what we know - of words to be 110% bothersome! At 1:56; AB says that they only know "bits and pieces" (in reference to LE's investigation) - talk about freudian slips - Sheesh!!

~ All My Personal Opinions Only ~

Reba
11-19-2010, 08:35 PM
Exactly! :)

It puzzles me exceedingly that people need to (for whatever reason) make this case so complicated. It really is a very simple case in my opinion. Someone/s went too far in their usual beating of Zahra - I don't think they meant to kill Zahra. When some people commit this sort of crime they will often go to extensive lengths to cover it up.

You know, such as dismembering a body, scattering body pieces, digging graves, dumping mattresses, painting over blood splatters, lighting fires then calling 911, writing fake ransom notes, report said child as missing resulting in amber alert, nil confrontation with person in custody and then feign ignorance.

There is one reason and one reason only for people to go to these lengths, they were in on it together and no one can ever see the body of the child, because then we would know what happened.


My thoughts exactly!

DLT88
11-19-2010, 08:45 PM
I have a question im not sure anyone can answer. Does anyone know for sure how big the matress was? If it was a full sized it would be hard for one person to dispose of but if it was a twin or a futon not so much. JMO

I don't know about the original one but I would think it would have been the same size as the replacement one. It seemed to me to be a twin at the most (could a child's mattress have been big enough for Zahra?) because they seemed to move it out the door with ease. It did not look that big to me. It looked to be either a twin or a child's mattress to me.

Wise Old Owl
11-19-2010, 08:54 PM
I don't know about the original one but I would think it would have been the same size as the replacement one. It seemed to me to be a twin at the most (could a child's mattress have been big enough for Zahra?) because they seemed to move it out the door with ease. It did not look that big to me. It looked to be either a twin or a child's mattress to me.
It was a twin.

Pondering Mind
11-19-2010, 09:15 PM
I also find AB's comment, beginning at the 1:16 mark, interesting: "I know there was a fire in the yard and...we went back to bed. I got up and went to work. We didn't get to bed til 7:30 that morning. I had to go...get some kind of sleep."

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25360091/index.html

Okay, so the fire department responded to the fire at 5:20 am that morning (Saturday, 10/9) so what exactly was AB doing before that, if he wasn't sleeping? Have I missed a statement made elsewhere by AB that explains his whereabouts late Friday night (10/8) and into the early morning hours - before the fire was reported at 5:20 am on Saturday? I noticed that he also includes EB when he says; "We didn't get to bed...", so what exactly were the both of them doing up until the time when the backyard fire was called in? Something tells me I'm going to regret asking this question... :waitasec:Does it rhyme with perk? :banghead:
TIA!

ETA: And yes DLT88, I find his choice - now knowing what we know - of words to be 110% bothersome! At 1:56; AB says that they only know "bits and pieces" (in reference to LE's investigation) - talk about freudian slips - Sheesh!!

~ All My Personal Opinions Only ~

I think there are all kinds of slips in that clip! On the 911 call, AB says that he and his wife went back to bed IIRC and here he says that they didn't get to bed until 7:30. I might could write that off if that was it ..but as y'all have pointed out, the "genuinely saw her out of bed" comment is very bothersome indeed...the whole little explaination was just too odd..

I'm also still of the mind that Tuesday was actually the last day Zahra was alive..Adam thought about that question before he answered (imo, thinking back to what he and EB most likely discussed as the scenario) and he still said Tuesday..and didn't realize it until the reporter corrected him..She missed a golden opportunity right there I believe!

Wagara
11-19-2010, 09:42 PM
Did AB ever say where they were before the fires started? I had wondered if he meant they went "back to bed" versus being "in bed" before the fire started.



Floor boards & sink taken, walls cut up, floors cut up, etc. There is no way he didn't notice something going on.
I have kept up with this case as best I can but I am confused by this. Since the video came out I have assumed that the above was done by LE in looking for evidence. Was all of this already done and what LE walked in and found?



and she was getting help from her "other" husband to deceive AB Why in the world would the other husband want to do this? I know her daughter and BB were afraid of EB but was everyone?

Aside from being heartbroken, I am just so puzzled by this case.

nomoresorrow
11-19-2010, 09:48 PM
I think there are all kinds of slips in that clip! On the 911 call, AB says that he and his wife went back to bed IIRC and here he says that they didn't get to bed until 7:30. I might could write that off if that was it ..but as y'all have pointed out, the "genuinely saw her out of bed" comment is very bothersome indeed...the whole little explaination was just too odd..

I'm also still of the mind that Tuesday was actually the last day Zahra was alive..Adam thought about that question before he answered (imo, thinking back to what he and EB most likely discussed as the scenario) and he still said Tuesday..and didn't realize it until the reporter corrected him..She missed a golden opportunity right there I believe!

Hi Pondering! I agree with your post. In retrospect, it's as though AB was telling us what happened to Zahra even though he was trying not to.

~ All My Opinions Only ~

westsidefox64
11-19-2010, 09:48 PM
It was a twin.

I fully agree the new one was a twin. My sons twin is a foam very light. I pick it up and pull it around when I put the fitted sheet on it,very easy to move. It just seemed to me the pics at the landfill seemed like they were focusing more on futon type. Also very easily moved. I think either could be drug from the house to the alley by one person. I also think you could strap either to the top of a car without much trouble to take to another location.
Has it been said if EB had access to driving the company vehicle? I dont see why she couldnt have. Maybe wasnt suppose to but very well could have.

Pondering Mind
11-19-2010, 09:51 PM
Welcome to WS Wagara!

As far as I know..all that is known is that Adam said that they checked on Zahra around 2:30 am. Now of course, I don't believe a word he says..but IF he was telling the truth, it would make me think that both he and EB were still up @ that time since he said "we checked on her"..if either one of them had already been to bed then why would they both get up to check on her..especially at 2:30 in the morning when no one had been interested in checking on her for many hours previous to that...and that's by their own admission. None of it makes any sense..:(

westsidefox64
11-19-2010, 09:51 PM
Did AB ever say where they were before the fires started? I had wondered if he meant they went "back to bed" versus being "in bed" before the fire started.



I have kept up with this case as best I can but I am confused by this. Since the video came out I have assumed that the above was done by LE in looking for evidence. Was all of this already done and what LE walked in and found?


Why in the world would the other husband want to do this? I know her daughter and BB were afraid of EB but was everyone?

Aside from being heartbroken, I am just so puzzled by this case.

In the 911 call AB said he was woke up by his dogs barking and found the fire. (Not an exact quote)

Pondering Mind
11-19-2010, 09:53 PM
Hi Pondering! I agree with your post. In retrospect, it's as though AB was telling us what happened to Zahra even though he was trying not to.

~ All My Opinions Only ~

Which is probably why he has stayed T H I S F A R away from the cameras..

Wagara
11-19-2010, 10:07 PM
In the 911 call AB said he was woke up by his dogs barking and found the fire. (Not an exact quote)Thanks. I know it's easy to see something in everything but I think he only meant they went back to bed after the fire. Even if they stayed up until 2:30 and checked on Zahra (which I do not believe) he could have still considered it "going back to bed." Too bad he's such a liar that we can't believe anything he says.

Just my opinion!

vjlaw
11-19-2010, 10:14 PM
I fully agree the new one was a twin. My sons twin is a foam very light. I pick it up and pull it around when I put the fitted sheet on it,very easy to move. It just seemed to me the pics at the landfill seemed like they were focusing more on futon type. Also very easily moved. I think either could be drug from the house to the alley by one person. I also think you could strap either to the top of a car without much trouble to take to another location.
Has it been said if EB had access to driving the company vehicle? I dont see why she couldnt have. Maybe wasnt suppose to but very well could have.

If she used the company vehicle that means AB would have been home for it to be there. The twin mattresses I had were the kinds with springs. I thought they used a piece of equipment to pull it out of the landfill, but maybe they weren't really showing the one they took into evidence.

Bia.
11-19-2010, 10:49 PM
Did AB ever say where they were before the fires started? I had wondered if he meant they went "back to bed" versus being "in bed" before the fire started.



I have kept up with this case as best I can but I am confused by this. Since the video came out I have assumed that the above was done by LE in looking for evidence. Was all of this already done and what LE walked in and found?


Why in the world would the other husband want to do this? I know her daughter and BB were afraid of EB but was everyone?

Aside from being heartbroken, I am just so puzzled by this case.

Yes, the above was done by LE. However, the reason for them doing so implicates a massive crime scene (blood usually). So for there to be something so great going on in that house and AB claims he was unaware of it, seems unbelievable IMO.

CarmelEyesD
11-20-2010, 12:55 AM
In my opinion, AB is involved. If not in the murder, in the cover up. However, there seems to be proof connecting EB (the ransom note), there does not seem to be proof (yet ) connecting AB. I do feel he has a lot of 'slips of the tongue). I think so far, he has just been lucky. We don't know, however, if there has been lie detector tests and what the results are...Just my opinion

tlcya
11-20-2010, 02:10 AM
If she used the company vehicle that means AB would have been home for it to be there. The twin mattresses I had were the kinds with springs. I thought they used a piece of equipment to pull it out of the landfill, but maybe they weren't really showing the one they took into evidence.

Or maybe having watched just enough CSI to know better than to touch it, the employees used the equipment instead? Or perhaps were cautioned when LE gave up the search there of what to do when if they found a matress fitting that general description?

vjlaw
11-20-2010, 02:24 AM
Or maybe having watched just enough CSI to know better than to touch it, the employees used the equipment instead? Or perhaps were cautioned when LE gave up the search there of what to do when if they found a matress fitting that general description?

Could very well be. I really don't think it would be very heavy either but it would not be too bendable to get in a regular car. Just thinking someone wouldn't tuck it under their arm and walk to a dumpster without being noticed. Especially if they got rid of it because they knew there was evidence on it. If they dismembered Zahra why not cut up the mattress and throw it in trash bags rather than carrying something so obvious. I am just wondering what was on the mattress that they would have known would be found by LE but not seen by the naked eye if someone looked into the dumpster and saw a mattress. If there had been lots of blood anyone could have seen that on the mattress. Not sure if it was the dumpster for the donut(?) shop, but if it was, employees could have easily looked in there and noticed the mattress.

tlcya
11-20-2010, 03:06 AM
Could very well be. I really don't think it would be very heavy either but it would not be too bendable to get in a regular car. Just thinking someone wouldn't tuck it under their arm and walk to a dumpster without being noticed. Especially if they got rid of it because they knew there was evidence on it. If they dismembered Zahra why not cut up the mattress and throw it in trash bags rather than carrying something so obvious. I am just wondering what was on the mattress that they would have known would be found by LE but not seen by the naked eye if someone looked into the dumpster and saw a mattress. If there had been lots of blood anyone could have seen that on the mattress. Not sure if it was the dumpster for the donut(?) shop, but if it was, employees could have easily looked in there and noticed the mattress.

I agree a single person would not just hoist it over their shoulder. They would have to drag it, the size and shape would make it unmanagable even if the weight did not. But I have dragged full mattresses down a flight of stairs, down a long drive, to the pile we were amassing for the dump.

that, would mean to me vomit maybe, or some fluids not detectable by the naked eye. Or perhaps nothing that would stand out as anything other than gross at the time to anyone who saw it (before any one has heard of Zahra or knows she's missing) but was so objectionable it needed to leave the house. I hate to speculate that far because it is so disturbing to me but perhaps Z soiled the bed either in fear during life or in the normal occassional voiding that can come after death?

I need to get off here and go to bed. This turn of thought is too much for this late.

vjlaw
11-20-2010, 03:20 AM
I agree a single person would not just hoist it over their shoulder. They would have to drag it, the size and shape would make it unmanagable even if the weight did not. But I have dragged full mattresses down a flight of stairs, down a long drive, to the pile we were amassing for the dump.

that, would mean to me vomit maybe, or some fluids not detectable by the naked eye. Or perhaps nothing that would stand out as anything other than gross at the time to anyone who saw it (before any one has heard of Zahra or knows she's missing) but was so objectionable it needed to leave the house. I hate to speculate that far because it is so disturbing to me but perhaps Z soiled the bed either in fear during life or in the normal occassional voiding that can come after death?

I need to get off here and go to bed. This turn of thought is too much for this late.

Yes, I know what you mean. I need to go to bed too. Good nite.

Mountain_Kat
11-20-2010, 10:17 AM
In the 911 call AB said he was woke up by his dogs barking and found the fire. (Not an exact quote)

This comment of his has always bugged me. And strangely enough, it's something I've been pondering quite a bit this morning in relation to other thoughts.

He says: " We woke up. My dog woke me up."

Why the switch from "we" to "me" ? Is he saying the dog woke BOTH him and EB up? Is he saying the dog woke HIM up and he then woke HER up?

That's a mighty interesting comment to consider when asking yourself who it was that might have set the fire.

JMO

ETA: We know that EB wrote the ransom note, she's already admitted that. But do we know WHEN she wrote it?

raisincharlie
11-20-2010, 10:29 AM
In the 911 call AB said he was woke up by his dogs barking and found the fire. (Not an exact quote)

Interesting comment by AB. I've always wondered why the dogs didn't wake him up when whoever was pouring gas on the mulch pile and in the cars rather than waiting for the fire to be actively in progress myself. Only conclusion I can reach is the dogs knew who was pouring gas but they didn't like fire.

Time the ransom note was written - 0230.

Mountain_Kat
11-20-2010, 10:31 AM
Interesting comment by AB. I've always wondered why the dogs didn't wake him up when whoever was pouring gas on the mulch pile and in the cars rather than waiting for the fire to be actively in progress myself. Only conclusion I can reach is the dogs knew who was pouring gas but they didn't like fire.

Or he's just flat out lying that the dogs woke him up. I don't think the dogs barked at all. I don't think AB ever went to sleep.

The question is...did EB?

raisincharlie
11-20-2010, 10:33 AM
Or he's just flat out lying that the dogs woke him up.

:D

Could be.

vjlaw
11-20-2010, 02:59 PM
If AB poured the gas and touched the ransom note, I hope they find his fingerprint on the note.

Clue Hopper
11-20-2010, 03:06 PM
What if someone didn't think in advance about the dogs barking? Having the fire go unnoticed until it became uncontrollable? Remnants or ashes of burned ransom found in car etc. Just thinking in a different direction for today.

tlcya
11-20-2010, 03:12 PM
This comment of his has always bugged me. And strangely enough, it's something I've been pondering quite a bit this morning in relation to other thoughts.

He says: " We woke up. My dog woke me up."

Why the switch from "we" to "me" ? Is he saying the dog woke BOTH him and EB up? Is he saying the dog woke HIM up and he then woke HER up?

That's a mighty interesting comment to consider when asking yourself who it was that might have set the fire.

JMO

ETA: We know that EB wrote the ransom note, she's already admitted that. But do we know WHEN she wrote it?

Or the dogs didn't bark because as posted by another, they recongized the person in the backyard, but then set to barking once the fire was going as they were not okay with that.

I think the switch from we to me because it occurred to him after saying we that E had not been in the bed with him and therefore changed it to me. She may well have already been out of bed so he realized we was not accurate.

Mountain_Kat
11-20-2010, 03:43 PM
Or the dogs didn't bark because as posted by another, they recongized the person in the backyard, but then set to barking once the fire was going as they were not okay with that.

I think the switch from we to me because it occurred to him after saying we that E had not been in the bed with him and therefore changed it to me. She may well have already been out of bed so he realized we was not accurate.

I can't agree with you, here, TL. He switches from "we" in too many other areas, in addition to this one. For example: " WE saw her last night at around 2:30 am". That later becomes not "WE saw her", but "her MOTHER saw her". I think he has a script going in his head, but can't stick to it. He can't keep the story straight.

Allusonz
11-20-2010, 03:49 PM
One other point to ponder is that the donut employee stated that he saw an individual with a lighter on the back porch. He does not state that he saw 2 individuals on the back porch with lighters

tlcya
11-20-2010, 03:57 PM
One other point to ponder is that the donut employee stated that he saw an individual with a lighter on the back porch. He does not state that he saw 2 individuals on the back porch with lighters

agreed and this was also a topic of specualtion on the ransom note thread. Either there was only one person in the backyard, or the donut store employee could only see the person on the proch because of the lighter flicking on and off and another person was present on the yard in an area not visible from the employees vantage point.

Scamperoo
11-20-2010, 04:11 PM
AB was in the house while his daughter was being systematically dismembered and disposed of and knew nothing? I don't buy that!
There are many valid reasons why he would have known but the one I think of continuously is the smell..Ugh yes I know. Humans for all of their normally lousy sense of smell have an extremely heightened sense for blood. Or more to the point the reaction between blood and the skin which gives a characteristic metallic smell and can be detected at 5 parts per trillion by humans, so if he couldn't see anything he could smell it if he were at anytime in the house. Thats apart from the smell of human decomposition which by itself lingers and is very distinct. He knew JMO

tlcya
11-20-2010, 04:31 PM
I don't know where AB was. because -

I don't know when AB last set eyes on his living child (100%, genuinely, tuesday, thursday, 2am, etc.)

I don't know when (that night? Days prior? A week before?) the dismemberment happened.

I don't know where in the home the dismemberment happened. (my guess would be bathtub, only logical)

I don't know how much cleanup was necessary in Z's room as I don't know cause of death. The drywall removal suggest evidence but I do not know what it is. I do not know if painting was done in Z's room to cover up evidence on said drywall although it has certainly been SPECULATED about by me and others. If painting was done, IMO that could easily have been done by a lone person during the day while another was out of the house. (OT but did ya'll see that carppy paint job in Z's room? :eek: )

Therein lies a lot of my problem in being able to figure out who knew what when.

Clue Hopper
11-20-2010, 04:54 PM
Is there a thread for just the lies? I'm trying to recall all of them at once and well.....it's hard to do. I keep forgetting some.

tlcya
11-20-2010, 04:59 PM
here ya go hopper

Elisa Baker & Adam Baker lies **LIST ONLY** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

It is a thread for justs listing the lies/inconsistencies, not really discussion

hth

Jacie Estes
11-20-2010, 07:37 PM
I think of the fathers of missing/murdered children; Mark Klaas, John Walsh, Ed Smart and Chuck Cox. Each one of them was active and proactive after their children went missing. They all searched for their children. Klaas and Walsh started foundations and have been very visible as advocates. Both Smart and Cox are visible and have started foundations for awareness; Chuck Cox is still in limbo, not knowing where his daughter Susan is, still he speaks and searches.

AB has done nothing remotely compared to the efforts of the aforementioned. He just follows his Mum around. IMHO that speaks volumes. Where is his outrage, where is his desire to bring truth forward? He is just IMHO doing a passable CYA job. Poor Zahra, she looked up to him. She called him Daddy; he failed her. IMHO

Mrs G Norris
11-20-2010, 07:47 PM
^ Could not agree more Jacie!

Pugnolia
11-20-2010, 08:50 PM
If their intent was to burn the car with the bedding in it (gas found poured or spilled in the front seat), door standing open, probably somewhat close to the burning brush pile, why would they have called the FD when they did? Why not wait a bit longer till the car was more engaged? Seems to me that they (or one of them) intended to burn that car.

Then again, the door open and the doused gasoline in the car, coupled with the ransom note, certainly would catch the attention of LE, which also could have been their intention. But if this were the case, why were the 4 pieces of burnt items found in the car (if I remember correctly) not completely destroyed? Seems to me that they started to destroy these items and then aborted their plan.

The whole affair seems wacky to me. Very confusing.

tlcya
11-20-2010, 08:53 PM
ITA pug, NONE of it makes any sense. We have some really smart posters here and all our heads together should be able to figure this out but it has us all completely flumoxed.

I for one hate to be flumoxed!

Reannan
11-20-2010, 10:16 PM
I have been away all day, and truly hoped to come home and find that AB had been arrested. If he is innocent, I have salt and pepper ready to season the crow I will be eating. I also have a bottle of fine wine that I am saving to celebrate when he is arrested.

NoeticSoul
11-20-2010, 10:34 PM
referenced via lauriej ~TY

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25360091/index.html

ADAM: "…her mum came running out to tell me she was missing. That’s pretty much…the whole..100% of… what I….completely know so far. Everything else is just (shakes head) little bits and pieces coming."

(too many qualifiers)

bbm

Again with the 100% recollections ...

There's truth hiding in every lie. :doughboy:

Kamille
11-20-2010, 10:49 PM
referenced via lauriej ~TY

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25360091/index.html

ADAM: "…her mum came running out to tell me she was missing. That’s pretty much…the whole..100% of… what I….completely know so far. Everything else is just (shakes head) little bits and pieces coming."

(too many qualifiers)

bbm

Again with the 100% recollections ...

There's truth hiding in every lie. :doughboy:

Some of his quotes do have an unfortunate choice of words don't they. :(

NoeticSoul
11-20-2010, 10:53 PM
Some of his quotes do have an unfortunate choice of words don't they. :(

Sadly, yes.. no matter how hard I hope that the square peg fits in the round hole...

It just doesn't.. IMO.

Mrs G Norris
11-20-2010, 10:55 PM
Oh dear, he does tend to leak the truth unintentionally doesn't he?

NoeticSoul
11-20-2010, 11:00 PM
Oh dear, he does tend to leak the truth unintentionally doesn't he?

Yes... the

Adam Baker: "No. There’s no possible way to uh (shrugs shoulders) .... Ever fill the hole left by my daughter."

As I've stated before is bothersome to say the least.

...fill the hole.. bother's me as does the word "left" as IF she had a choice and and left him on purpose...

revampz
11-21-2010, 07:26 AM
hi guys just to let you know that my mum ran into an old friend from Giru today (where Zahra lived in aust and where I grew up).....they had a big chat about these people.....this girl works in the school Zahra went to..........she said that everyone was schocked when this loud brash tattooed american turned up to stay with him...especially his family and everyone was even more shocked when they got married in giru not long after......apparently EB ruffled quite a lot of feathers at the school as she would go there and tried to take over alot of the schooling etc for Zahra....remember this is a town that took this little girl in their hearts and really looked after her........she also said that alot of people thought that AB was a bit weird.....in that he would turn up to the school and all the fund raising events etc but did not really talk to alot of people or participate in alot of the community events....it was more his mum.......maybe he is just a quiet person who likes to keep to himself......anyhow that is from the locals in giru.

docwho3
11-21-2010, 09:33 AM
If their intent was to burn the car with the bedding in it
(gas found poured or spilled in the front seat), door standing open, probably somewhat
close to the burning brush pile, why would they have called the FD when they did?
Why not wait a bit longer till the car was more engaged?. . .

Until now I have refrained from commenting on the seemingly fake car burning attempt.
To me it seemed more like a prop in a play than anything else and so not worthy of
too much time and thought.

Not knowing all the details of evidence concerning this fire it would be very easy to
miss the reason for the car burning so I hesitate to comment.

However if you don't mind I will toss a couple of crazy guesses out:

The car burning attempt was a prop in a play, the 'kidnapping of Zahra play',
yet who were they trying to mislead?

These two had to know they would be investigated for the murder of Zahra.
They aren't totally stupid and so they also knew they could easily be charged
with murder in the case.

If the goal is to beat a murder charge your best odds are to plant reasonable
doubt in the mind of the jury. From their viewpoint fooling LE would be nice but
not necessary. In fact they probably have seen a few CSI episodes and
counted heavily on the burning vehicle being tested due to the ransom note.

If the car had been allowed to get too involved in burning then something
might have been destroyed, evidence that would tie in to the kidnapping note
and thus to the 'kidnappers.' And if/when they are charged with murder this evidence
could be pointed at in trial to seem to point towards some unknown kidnappers having
set the fire in an attempt to cover up that the kidnappers had already
done evil to this child.

Such a play prop does not have to totally fool anyone. Maybe it just needs to plant
legal grounds for reasonable doubt in a few minds on any jury.

Summary:
So at the least they wanted to fool someone by having planted evidence in the car
which presence tied it to the car
which was linked to the ransom note which, in turn, pointed to unknown 'kidnappers'
and all this to lead thoughts away from looking closely at the immediate family.

So were they trying to fool LE or trying to influence a jury member later on
by planting legal grounds for 'reasonable doubt'?

To quote part of a song I once heard, "Who do they think they're foolin'?"
Either way the thing seems like a prop in a play.

The script:
'. . . "I don't know if they set a fire in the yard to distract us to go out and then they
snuck in the door, or, I don't know," he continued. "Somebody had put gas in my
company's truck that I drive for work. . . .'
http://abcnews.go.com/US/search-zahra-baker-911-tapes-released/story?id=11916819

The link to 'kidnappers':
'. . . It was then that police discovered a ransom note addressed to Adam Baker's boss
on the windshield of Baker's car. . . .'
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=7785427

Suggestive evidence?:
'. . . It was also revealed today that police dogs searching for the missing girl have
detected the smell of human remains on two cars at her North Carolina home. . .'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1319886/Police-dogs-detect-human-remains-home-missing-Zahra-Baker.html

I do not know what else was found in the vehicle.

LiveLaughLuv
11-21-2010, 10:01 AM
I don't know where AB was. because -

I don't know when AB last set eyes on his living child (100%, genuinely, tuesday, thursday, 2am, etc.)

I don't know when (that night? Days prior? A week before?) the dismemberment happened.

I don't know where in the home the dismemberment happened. (my guess would be bathtub, only logical)
I don't know how much cleanup was necessary in Z's room as I don't know cause of death. The drywall removal suggest evidence but I do not know what it is. I do not know if painting was done in Z's room to cover up evidence on said drywall although it has certainly been SPECULATED about by me and others. If painting was done, IMO that could easily have been done by a lone person during the day while another was out of the house. (OT but did ya'll see that carppy paint job in Z's room? :eek: )

Therein lies a lot of my problem in being able to figure out who knew what when.

That's where I'm at as well..I don't know AB's timeline of where he was and when. When was the last time he physically saw his daughter, Zahra? Not just peeked in on her but physically spoke to her? What happened between September 25th and October 9th? Who other than EB saw Zahra?

As far as her being dismembered, I'm thinking it happened in her room on her mattress, which is why it was dumped and so important for LE to find. The walls taken apart was due to blood evidence on them but after death the blood wouldn't flow, would it? I also feel this might be something this evil stepmomster did all on her own or did she have someone else help her.

I was flabbergasted to learn, EB had AB believing AY was her brother, why??? Why would AY go along with that and how much more would he do for EB?? This is so convoluted since we truly don't know the "real" details, all speculation since LE has not come out and said exactly what they believe went on...poor Zahra didn't stand a chance in the clutches of this stepmomster! All I know is I want everyone involved in Zahra's demise punished to the full extent of the law, with no rewards for telling the truth...JMHO

Justice for Zahra

Mountain_Kat
11-21-2010, 12:03 PM
I can't see the dismemberment occurring on her bed in her bedroom.

1). It would have created a huge mess to have to clean up.
2). If dismemberment occurred in her bedroom on the mattress, why then did police find it neccesary to remove floor, sink, and plumbing from bathroom and kitchen? They dismember Zahra in the bedroom, and then for no logical reason, haul parts of her off to the bathroom and/or kitchen?
3). AB and EB may not be rocket scientists, but I surely think they have at least enough intelligence to know that, if you are going to dismember a body, the best place to do that would be somewhere where there are easily cleaned surfaces...like a bathroom or kitchen.

JMO

LiveLaughLuv
11-21-2010, 12:24 PM
I can't see the dismemberment occurring on her bed in her bedroom

1). It would have created a huge mess to have to clean up.
2). If dismemberment occurred in her bedroom on the mattress, why then did police find it neccesary to remove floor, sink, and plumbing from bathroom and kitchen? They dismember Zahra in the bedroom, and then for no logical reason, haul parts of her off to the bathroom and/or kitchen?
3). AB and EB may not be rocket scientists, but I surely think they have at least enough intelligence to know that, if you are going to dismember a body, the best place to do that would be somewhere where there are easily cleaned surfaces...like a bathroom or kitchen.

JMO

And it did...they repainted the room, didn't they?

Why was it so important to get that mattress from the dump? They took the walls and plumbing due to seeing if there is blood there, who's blood for that is where the clean up occured...washing of hands, took a shower...If Zahra was already deceased the blood would not splurt out all over the place...once the heart stops beating, blood doesn't flow...JMHO


Justice for Zahra

tlcya
11-21-2010, 12:42 PM
I agree that the bedroom would have been a very unlikely, illogical choice for location of dismemberment. I believe the matress was discarded because it was soiled with blood from a violent incident or from bodily fluids voided after death. I think it more reasonable to assume that the bathtub would be the choice for where dismemberment would have ocurred.

not to get too graphic, but that is an extrememly messy and difficult process. Anyone who has ever cut up their own whole chicken rather than pay extra for precut at the grocery will tell you, disarticulating bone and tendon is not an easy task. If that chicken cutting task is translated into a 10 year old size human the process would be awkward, difficult and very messy without even taking into account the horror of it. The bathtub is the only place that makes sense to my mind.

Just my own :twocents:

Mountain_Kat
11-21-2010, 12:46 PM
And it did...they repainted the room, didn't they?

Why was it so important to get that mattress from the dump? They took the walls and plumbing due to seeing if there is blood there, who's blood for that is where the clean up occured...washing of hands, took a shower...If Zahra was already deceased the blood would not splurt out all over the place...once the heart stops beating, blood doesn't flow...JMHO


Justice for Zahra


We'll just have to agree to disagree about the dismemberment occuring in Zahra's bedroom. :)

westsidefox64
11-21-2010, 12:58 PM
GRAPHIC
I agree that the dismemberment probley didnt take place in Zs bedroom. Too messy of a thing but what if she was dismembered in the tub ,kitchen??? Placed into bags and them stored in Zs bed until the job was done. If a bag of remains was tossed on the bed splatter could have gotten on the wall, drips from remains in the bags could have soaked into the mattress and a bag could have been sat on the floor. That could explain all the holes LE cut in the wall and floor and the reason for getting rid of the mattress. Just a thought.

WhyaDuck?
11-21-2010, 01:01 PM
Please edit your posts to cut all reference to the opinions of others, please. Be nice, and don't argue, and don't belittle theories just because you don't personally hold them.

If you don't edit them or can't because of the edit window, I will be around shortly to do them for you.

ETA: If you find your post has a reading you did not intend, and you can no longer edit it, please hit the "alert" on your own post and let us know how you wish it to be edited. Otherwise, we will do the edits for you, usually just cutting the parts that violate the rules of civility we wish to maintain in these discussions. However, sometimes when the threads are super-busy, mods will not have the time to contact anyone for co-operation and will make the executive decision, so try not to offend anyone when you post, please.

Thank you for your co-operation - always appreciated.

JoeFromLB
11-21-2010, 01:19 PM
referenced via lauriej ~TY

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25360091/index.html

ADAM: "…her mum came running out to tell me she was missing. That’s pretty much…the whole..100% of… what I….completely know so far. Everything else is just (shakes head) little bits and pieces coming."

(too many qualifiers)

bbm

Again with the 100% recollections ...

There's truth hiding in every lie. :doughboy:

"little bits and pieces":eek:

Just a matter of time before this guy cracks. Mama's going to have to hold his hand real tight at the defense table. LOL.

Soulmagent
11-21-2010, 01:38 PM
Some of his quotes do have an unfortunate choice of words don't they. :(

I know it amazes me! Like he is telling the story with choice selected phasing in the convesations. He has done it all over the place. Even the 911 call. With the word Brooding . Defined as preoccupied with depressing, morbid, or painful memories or thoughts: a brooding frame of mind.
2. cast in subdued light so as to convey a somewhat threatening atmosphere: Dusk fell on the brooding hills.

I thought he might be doing it on purpose. That would impy a whole different level to his personality.

Someone reasure me and tell me in no way could he be doing it on purpose.
It really seems picking apart what he says would lead to more clues as to what happen.

Mountain_Kat
11-21-2010, 03:15 PM
I know it amazes me! Like he is telling the story with choice selected phasing in the convesations. He has done it all over the place. Even the 911 call. With the word Brooding . Defined as preoccupied with depressing, morbid, or painful memories or thoughts: a brooding frame of mind.
2. cast in subdued light so as to convey a somewhat threatening atmosphere: Dusk fell on the brooding hills.

I thought he might be doing it on purpose. That would impy a whole different level to his personality.

Someone reasure me and tell me in no way could he be doing it on purpose.
It really seems picking apart what he says would lead to more clues as to what happen.

I don't know how reassuring you'll find this, but my personal feeling is that he simply doesn't realize how bizarre his words seem, given the circumstances.

Of course, he should realize that. The fact that he doesn't just makes me feel that he's completely self-absorbed and doesn't think of his daughter, or the people who care about her, at all.

JMO