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View Full Version : 2010.11.11 - Possible Human Remains Found and DNA Testing *merged*



LaWanda
11-11-2010, 12:54 PM
Here we go. We can discuss the possibility of human remains found 10.11.2010 and all things related.

NancyA
11-11-2010, 12:57 PM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5788248&postcount=92


My first thread, hope it's ok, if not apologies to mods for making extra work to do what is appropriate with it. My thought is bouncing off the linked post above (once again hope I did that right too) and so as not to clutter up the SAR thread, I thought we could discuss the finding of possible human remains here and the DNA profiling that needs to be done.

NancyA
11-11-2010, 01:01 PM
O/T LOL. I knew this would happen that by the time I'd figured out how to start a thread and carry over a link, someone else would have started one. I'll now have to see if I can delete mine - if not, sorry mods!

Thanks Lawanda

Jo in Calif
11-11-2010, 01:01 PM
They keep talking about DNA profile for Z, could this be why they they need the Mother here?

Jo in Calif
11-11-2010, 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NancyA View Post
Which begs the question why would they need to when they have one biological parent already here? Unless Mr Baker really hasn't been all that cooperative.
Maybe they need mitochondrial DNA?
Edit/Delete Message

DLT88
11-11-2010, 01:05 PM
By Epiphany - HICKORY, NC (WBTV) - New evidence that officials say are "possible human remains" has been found in the search for a missing 10-year-old Hickory girl, according to the Hickory Police Department.

Investigators told WBTV on Thursday that search teams in Caldwell County found evidence on Wednesday that "could provide valuable information in the Zahra Baker case." The evidence, which are "possible human remains," is on its way to and will be analyzed by the NC State Bureau of Investigation's lab.

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13465050
*******************************************

I brought this over from the search thread since they seem to not want the remains discussion over there and I wanted to comment. "Possible human remains"......could that be possible degraded skin, organs, or soft tissue? Bones are bones and they can tell what is a bone --- although maybe not a human bone so maybe that's what they mean.

NancyA
11-11-2010, 01:05 PM
OK we now have two threads, I can't figure out how to delete mine, maybe the mods can merge them?

LaWanda
11-11-2010, 01:06 PM
LOL GMTA!!! It's cool. I know how to delete .. I just don't want to delete both.

I'll delete mine, keep yours going.

distracted 1976
11-11-2010, 01:07 PM
Per WSOC noon newscast, human remains found, but "not an entire body" no link yet, so MOO. Will update with link when posted.

NancyA
11-11-2010, 01:10 PM
GMTA!! I will delete mine. Lets keep this one going. =)

Thank you so much!

nort
11-11-2010, 01:11 PM
Thank you for starting this thread as the mapping was making me crazy...I want to know what was found in the searches not a how and why they went there.

Jo in Calif
11-11-2010, 01:11 PM
Well, that felt like Mr. Toad's wild ride, moving and deleting. Don't like verbal spankings, thanks for starting this thread.

NancyA
11-11-2010, 01:12 PM
Per WSOC noon newscast, human remains found, but "not an entire body" no link yet, so MOO. Will update with link when posted.

Oh my goodness, that suggests that they did dismember her, I was hoping it wouldn't be the case.

stillwatersc
11-11-2010, 01:12 PM
By Epiphany - HICKORY, NC (WBTV) - New evidence that officials say are "possible human remains" has been found in the search for a missing 10-year-old Hickory girl, according to the Hickory Police Department.

Investigators told WBTV on Thursday that search teams in Caldwell County found evidence on Wednesday that "could provide valuable information in the Zahra Baker case." The evidence, which are "possible human remains," is on its way to and will be analyzed by the NC State Bureau of Investigation's lab.

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13465050
*******************************************


"After the evidence was found, the search took on a serious tone with a limited fly zone set up -- meaning news helicopters were not allowed to travel lower than 3000 feet in the area. "

Patty G
11-11-2010, 01:13 PM
Per WSOC noon newscast, human remains found, but "not an entire body" no link yet, so MOO. Will update with link when posted.

They said NOT an entire body on air?

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 01:13 PM
I can merge the threads. Just give me a tick. Sticky Twitter legality issue in sector G... I will be back. RUN DUCKY RUN...

ETA: Done. I jerry rigged the title, as well, so let me know if it reflects what the two OPs had in mind or not.

nort
11-11-2010, 01:13 PM
Not a whole body, thats making me so angry.

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 01:19 PM
Hi folks - Just a reminder not to duplicate the SAR thread function. Stick to the OP intent of discussing this specific potential find, and any new info on the DNA testing of the evidence collected thus far, please.

This is NOT an alternative SAR thread.

This post falls completely at random as a friendly warning from your frazzled neighbourhood mod. :blowkiss:

Belinda
11-11-2010, 01:20 PM
What was done to this poor sweet child is breaking my heart into a million pieces. I am so glad they are starting to find her, but gosh this is harsh. I can barely stand to read about it. What kind of animals do this to a child? My mind just cannot accept the fact of the cruelty inflicted upon this child who had already suffered so much. Sorry, rant over.

nort
11-11-2010, 01:21 PM
I can understand the flying restriction they dont want reporters and such speculating at what they think they see from the air. As much as I am wanting the information I would hate for a mother to see something like that over a news cast.

NancyA
11-11-2010, 01:21 PM
I can merge the threads. Just give me a tick. Sticky Twitter legality issue in sector G... I will be back. RUN DUCKY RUN...

ETA: Done. I jerry rigged the title, as well, so let me know if it reflects what the two OPs had in mind or not.

Thanks so much, it's absolutely what I had in mind.

epiphany
11-11-2010, 01:21 PM
ME was on scene yesterday. IMO, it is likely they already know whether human or animal remains.

Kamille
11-11-2010, 01:22 PM
I can merge the threads. Just give me a tick. Sticky Twitter legality issue in sector G... I will be back. RUN DUCKY RUN...

ETA: Done. I jerry rigged the title, as well, so let me know if it reflects what the two OPs had in mind or not.

HA HA HA Ducky...can I just take this opportunity to say you're doing a marvelous job!! Keep up the good work!

Blue Ridge
11-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Not a whole body, thats making me so angry.

Me too, but it's what most of us have figured for awhile I think...given the way the house was taken apart for so much evidence all over the place, and EB's comment in her letter about what "he" did to her body "after the fact" :-( My only consolation in that is that little Zahra was already gone from that physical body by the time anything like that was done...she was already flying free....cancer-free, abuse-free...never to suffer again.

distracted 1976
11-11-2010, 01:24 PM
They said NOT an entire body on air?

They sure did...i rewound it (DVR) and listened to it again, so I could quote. They usually have the newscast segments up after it airs, I will post as soon as they do so for verification of his wording. sick:furious:

epiphany
11-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Also, in Charlotte Observer:

A source close to the investigation told the Observer's news partner, WCNC, that crews found human remains while searching in Caldwell County Wednesday. Hickory police would not confirm that human remains were found.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/11/1829991/investigators-find-valuable-evidence.html

NancyA
11-11-2010, 01:25 PM
What was done to this poor sweet child is breaking my heart into a million pieces. I am so glad they are starting to find her, but gosh this is harsh. I can barely stand to read about it. What kind of animals do this to a child? My mind just cannot accept the fact of the cruelty inflicted upon this child who had already suffered so much. Sorry, rant over.

My only consolation is whatever they did to her body after death didn't hurt her, by that time she was beyond pain. I am curious to know what they have found and why media seem to be so sure so quickly it's human.

nort
11-11-2010, 01:26 PM
According to NG (I know, I know) they should be able do this type of testing in 24 hours. Perhaps the mother coming in for testing is what they need. I do wonder if they have approached the father in regards to DNA.

darlin gal
11-11-2010, 01:28 PM
I can understand the flying restriction they dont want reporters and such speculating at what they think they see from the air. As much as I am wanting the information I would hate for a mother to see something like that over a news cast.


There are no flight restrictions in place today.

nort
11-11-2010, 01:28 PM
Me too, but it's what most of us have figured for awhile I think...given the way the house was taken apart for so much evidence all over the place, and EB's comment in her letter about what "he" did to her body "after the fact" :-( My only consolation in that is that little Zahra was already gone from that physical body by the time anything like that was done...she was already flying free....cancer-free, abuse-free...never to suffer again.

Yes I fugured it too was just hoping that all of us were wrong..

lauriej
11-11-2010, 01:28 PM
CALDWELL COUNTY, N.C. -- Investigators found remains while searching Wednesday for evidence in the disappearance of Zahra Baker, Channel 9 has learned.

• VIDEO: http://www.websleuths.com/sh/images/ibs_icon/cox/video.gifHuman Remains Found, Being Analyzed In Search For Zahra (http://www.websleuths.com/video/25759461/index.html)


The remains will be analyzed at the State Bureau of Investigation’s lab. Investigators made the discovery while searching along Dudley Shoals Road in Caldwell County.
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/25758518/detail.html

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 01:29 PM
HA HA HA Ducky...can I just take this opportunity to say you're doing a marvelous job!! Keep up the good work!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_R9Na04dnJgA/Ru7RZhEdC4I/AAAAAAAABAQ/bY6MPKc-KZg/s320/Shows%2Bmy%2Bstressed%2Bout%2Bduck%2B2.JPG

One stressed out duck.

Patty G
11-11-2010, 01:29 PM
FWIW, it took Dr. G, medical examiner for Caylee about 8 days to determine that it was Caylee's remains.

Mountain_Kat
11-11-2010, 01:30 PM
My only consolation is whatever they did to her body after death didn't hurt her, by that time she was beyond pain. I am curious to know what they have found and why media seem to be so sure so quickly it's human.

Makes me think it's something you can tell instantly, just by looking, is human. Skull? Possible whole ribcage?

(Oh man, makes me sick to even type that.)

stillwatersc
11-11-2010, 01:30 PM
ME was on scene yesterday. IMO, it is likely they already know whether human or animal remains.

Agree. And they wouldn't have released it to the media. Could they have found hair? :(

Patty G
11-11-2010, 01:30 PM
It is very possible that Adam may have given a DNA sample upon his arrest last month.

distracted 1976
11-11-2010, 01:31 PM
Okay here is the link to the newscast

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25759461/index.html

at appox 1:40 in the video, Dave says "that evidence is human remains, but not an entire body."

epiphany
11-11-2010, 01:31 PM
HLN now: reporter just stated source told HLN affiliates human remains found yesterday, but police will not confirm

gibby207
11-11-2010, 01:31 PM
Makes me think it's something you can tell instantly, just by looking, is human. Skull? Possible whole ribcage?

(Oh man, makes me sick to even type that.)

My first thought: Torso. :(

NancyA
11-11-2010, 01:32 PM
I've been leaning towards skull myself, it's the only 'human remain' I can think of that would be instantly recognisable - well to me at least.

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 01:34 PM
I've been leaning towards skull myself, it's the only 'human remain' I can think of that would be instantly recognisable - well to me at least.

Even skulls can sometimes be hard to recognize, as silly as that sounds. The skulls of children break up into sections very easily. If it wasn't a whole skull (like the way we picture a "skull"), then it might still take some time to verify as human, etc.

carbuff
11-11-2010, 01:35 PM
Not a whole body, thats making me so angry.

It wouldn't have to mean that. After this length of time, it might be animals, or weather.

nort
11-11-2010, 01:35 PM
There are no flight restrictions in place today.

Was just speaking in generalities..but thank you.

darlin gal
11-11-2010, 01:36 PM
Noon report:
It shows good shots of the "large hole" they removed "evidence" from yesterday, if anyone wants to get screen caps of it.

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25759461/index.html

Mountain_Kat
11-11-2010, 01:37 PM
< sipped by me >


Thursday's disclosure comes amid reports on CNN that police have identified a "person of interest" in the case, which has attracted attention around the world.


http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/11/1829991/investigators-find-valuable-evidence.html

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly. Reports of a different POI, or are they talking about EB? She's been a person of interest for quite some time, so what reports are they referring to?

nort
11-11-2010, 01:37 PM
It wouldn't have to mean that. After this length of time, it might be animals, or weather.

Would not make me any less angry as she was still dumped and in a position to be taken away by animals..

Blue Ridge
11-11-2010, 01:38 PM
According to NG (I know, I know) they should be able do this type of testing in 24 hours. Perhaps the mother coming in for testing is what they need. I do wonder if they have approached the father in regards to DNA.

With the bio mom they could do mitochondrial DNA which IIRC is less complicated and I guess therefore quicker? That would be enough to know it is Zahra even though they'd likely still follow it up with full DNA testing for the record.

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 01:38 PM
People can start a new thread on the POI report from CNN, if desired, so you guys can comb through what is meant there.

epiphany
11-11-2010, 01:38 PM
Combined with reporting that results from testing (likely bone from last week's discovery) came in yesterday as well>not a leap why Mom is in NC now. IMO, perhaps, skull discovered yesterday.

SNIPPED:

Meanwhile, Hickory Police received some test results from the SBI on Wednesday. Authorities wouldn't say what the results were for, but it's possible they were related to a bone found in the Christie Road location last week.

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13465050

~PrinceSSa~
11-11-2010, 01:38 PM
Okay here is the link to the newscast

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25759461/index.html

at appox 1:40 in the video, Dave says "that evidence is human remains, but not an entire body."

Perhaps the part where he says 'not an entire body' could point to Zahra afterall considering she only had one leg. That would make for 'not an entire body'

UGHH!

strach304
11-11-2010, 01:39 PM
They should have the results from the bone found last week by now. Can anyone tell me where these remains found yesterday are in relation to the bone found last week?

Mountain_Kat
11-11-2010, 01:41 PM
It wouldn't have to mean that. After this length of time, it might be animals, or weather.

Not seeing animal scatter all the way from Ekard (bone) to Dudley Shoals/Burns intersection (human remains). That's quite a distance.

Patty G
11-11-2010, 01:41 PM
Did MSM articles report anything about a POI? I haven't read all the articles yet. :blushing:

WillenFan21
11-11-2010, 01:42 PM
Guys I think its going to be legit. Zahra's mom is heading to the states. I feel so sad for this little girl. :(

Nancy Grace Breaking news: source: Human remains reportedly found in search for Zahra. Her biological mom reportedly coming to the states!

http://www.facebook.com/NancyGraceHLN

Mountain_Kat
11-11-2010, 01:42 PM
They should have the results from the bone found last week by now. Can anyone tell me where these remains found yesterday are in relation to the bone found last week?

Creek at intersection of Dudley Shoals Rd. and Burns Rd. was the find from yesterday. Long way from Ekard Pl.

NoeticSoul
11-11-2010, 01:43 PM
Guys I think its going to be legit. Zahra's mom is heading to the states. I feel so sad for this little girl. :(

Nancy Grace Breaking news: source: Human remains reportedly found in search for Zahra. Her biological mom reportedly coming to the states!

http://www.facebook.com/NancyGraceHLN

According to this new news Emily is already here and has retrieved her daughter's belongings left behind at the house:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Zahra Baker MEDIA links only **NO DISCUSSION**

Hopeful One
11-11-2010, 01:44 PM
Wasn't there a press conference scheduled for yesterday but they switched it to today? Is that still on?

Hopeful One
11-11-2010, 01:44 PM
According to this new news Emily is already here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Zahra Baker MEDIA links only **NO DISCUSSION** (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5788523&postcount=132)

I knew I remembered reading that but I couldn't remember where. Thanks!

Emeralgem
11-11-2010, 01:45 PM
Me too, but it's what most of us have figured for awhile I think...given the way the house was taken apart for so much evidence all over the place, and EB's comment in her letter about what "he" did to her body "after the fact" :-( My only consolation in that is that little Zahra was already gone from that physical body by the time anything like that was done...she was already flying free....cancer-free, abuse-free...never to suffer again.


Thats my only consolation as well...Removing part of her leg when she was in her earthly body did not kill the beautiful spirt that dwelled within..And nothing they did to her physical body after her true essence left this earthly plane could ever bring any harm to her ever again...

WillenFan21
11-11-2010, 01:46 PM
According to this new news Emily is already here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Zahra Baker MEDIA links only **NO DISCUSSION** (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5788523&postcount=132)

thank you! yeah i think this is going to be it.

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 01:47 PM
Did MSM articles report anything about a POI? I haven't read all the articles yet. :blushing:

IDK, Patty - I was just going on what a poster said. If it is in MSM, I wanted to encourage people to start a new thread instead of going OT here.

But I don't know for sure... I never get to read any of the articles any more. :(

lauriej
11-11-2010, 01:48 PM
“Jennifer Moxley Source confirms human remains found off Dudley Shoals Rd. Zahra’s mother Emily went to the Hickory home to collect Zahra’s things that were left behind. Hickory Police don’t plan to hold a press conference today”
13 minutes ago via Mobile Web

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000838103427 (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000838103427)

DLT88
11-11-2010, 01:48 PM
Body found during Zahra Baker search, authorities analyzing remains

http://www.shelbystar.com/news/body-51390-remains-search.html

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 01:50 PM
Anyone know off hand how many other missing persons cases are in this area? (I.e., who else these remains might be if they are human but not Zahra.)

impatientredhead
11-11-2010, 01:52 PM
I've been leaning towards skull myself, it's the only 'human remain' I can think of that would be instantly recognisable - well to me at least.

Pelvis bone, developed leg bones, there are many bones that to an expert can identify as human (much more difficult with a victim as young as Caylee which is where the bones are smaller and less developed). And of course the skull.

Not to be horrifyingly graphic but with six weeks out in the elements and exposed to animals the torso would not be likely to be found in one piece. Caylee was spread over an entire acre of land and the experts said based on the amount of debris that was on top of the bones they were dispersed fairly early on.

Blue Ridge
11-11-2010, 01:53 PM
IF her skull was among what was found.....and IF they have any dental records obtained from OZ (doubt there are any from NC)....my understanding is that dental id can be done in literally like an hour....way quicker than DNA or even mitochondrial DNA...

stillwatersc
11-11-2010, 01:53 PM
They should have the results from the bone found last week by now. Can anyone tell me where these remains found yesterday are in relation to the bone found last week?

I heard 5 miles apart on one of the news reports.

darnudes
11-11-2010, 01:54 PM
How fitting is this - it finally seems as if they found Zahra and on remembrance day. I knew LE would never give up until they found her.

lauriej
11-11-2010, 01:54 PM
http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/632634/human-remains-found-in-wednesday-s-search-for-zahra

------jennifer moxley video @ link

Sources close to the investigation said crews found human remains on Wednesday off of Dudley Shoals Road along Gunpowder Creek in Granite Falls. Hickory Police confirmed evidence was found, but stopped short of saying what that evidence was and that it is currently being tested by the SBI.

Zahra Baker's mother, Emily Baker, arrived in Hickory Wednesday night and she came to the Baker residence around 6 a.m. Thursday. She wanted to collect Zahra's belongings that were left behind.

adh74
11-11-2010, 01:54 PM
“Jennifer Moxley Source confirms human remains found off Dudley Shoals Rd. Zahra’s mother Emily went to the Hickory home to collect Zahra’s things that were left behind. Hickory Police don’t plan to hold a press conference today”
13 minutes ago via Mobile Web

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000838103427 (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000838103427)

OMG...just thinking about what that must have been like for her makes me cry! :*(

nort
11-11-2010, 01:54 PM
“Jennifer Moxley Source confirms human remains found off Dudley Shoals Rd. Zahra’s mother Emily went to the Hickory home to collect Zahra’s things that were left behind. Hickory Police don’t plan to hold a press conference today”
13 minutes ago via Mobile Web

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000838103427 (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000838103427)

Unless Emily had a need to go into that home, I wish there had been someone who could have done that for her. What a horrible place to have to see and wonder what exactly went on. Heartfelt sorrow for her.

raisincharlie
11-11-2010, 01:55 PM
Anyone know off hand how many other missing persons cases are in this area? (I.e., who else these remains might be if they are human but not Zahra.)

1 middle aged male.

MTMOM
11-11-2010, 01:56 PM
Body found during Zahra Baker search, authorities analyzing remains

http://www.shelbystar.com/news/body-51390-remains-search.html

So is it a body or a bone? Unfortunately the end result would be the same sad news, that Zahra is no longer with us, but a "bone" and "body" are two different things.

NoeticSoul
11-11-2010, 01:56 PM
“Jennifer Moxley Source confirms human remains found off Dudley Shoals Rd. Zahra’s mother Emily went to the Hickory home to collect Zahra’s things that were left behind. Hickory Police don’t plan to hold a press conference today”
13 minutes ago via Mobile Web

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000838103427 (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000838103427)

BBM

So they *DID* leave behind ZB's belongings.. I find that truly HEARTBREAKING that she had to retrieve them herself..

nursebeeme
11-11-2010, 01:57 PM
IDK, Patty - I was just going on what a poster said. If it is in MSM, I wanted to encourage people to start a new thread instead of going OT here.

But I don't know for sure... I never get to read any of the articles any more. :(
fwiw it was on nancy grace last night ("police confirm persons of interest").. I have not been able to find it elsewhere

Mountain_Kat
11-11-2010, 01:58 PM
Unless Emily had a need to go into that home, I wish there had been someone who could have done that for her. What a horrible place to have to see and wonder what exactly went on. Heartfelt sorrow for her.

I was just thinking the same thing. Man...my heart just aches for her. :(

Mountain_Kat
11-11-2010, 02:00 PM
fwiw it was on nancy grace last night ("police confirm persons of interest").. I have not been able to find it elsewhere

Plural? :waitasec:

nursebeeme
11-11-2010, 02:02 PM
Plural? :waitasec: yes. plural... but it was on nancy grace... and I am not finding it elsewhere in the msm

momtective
11-11-2010, 02:02 PM
Body found during Zahra Baker search, authorities analyzing remains

http://www.shelbystar.com/news/body-51390-remains-search.html

May justice be swift!

DLT88
11-11-2010, 02:03 PM
Unless Emily had a need to go into that home, I wish there had been someone who could have done that for her. What a horrible place to have to see and wonder what exactly went on. Heartfelt sorrow for her.

It's so sad! I picture Emily walking in that house (or previous home) a few months earlier and going directly to her daughter's room where she was held hostage -- bursting open the door and saying "I'm your MOTHER and you are coming home with me NOW". How Zahra would have felt being rescued by her mom. Would have been amazing.

belladonna
11-11-2010, 02:03 PM
Guys I think its going to be legit. Zahra's mom is heading to the states. I feel so sad for this little girl. :(

Nancy Grace Breaking news: source: Human remains reportedly found in search for Zahra. Her biological mom reportedly coming to the states!

http://www.facebook.com/NancyGraceHLN

The news in Hickory reported that she may be in Hickory right now ... they think she visited the house where Zahra went missing... according to newscaster....

Patty G
11-11-2010, 02:05 PM
Guys I think its going to be legit. Zahra's mom is heading to the states. I feel so sad for this little girl. :(

Nancy Grace Breaking news: source: Human remains reportedly found in search for Zahra. Her biological mom reportedly coming to the states!

http://www.facebook.com/NancyGraceHLN

new14charlotte tweeted earlier that she arrived in Hickory.

lauriej
11-11-2010, 02:06 PM
Zahra Baker's mother, Emily Baker, arrived in Hickory Wednesday night and she came to the Baker residence around 6 a.m. Thursday. She wanted to collect Zahra's belongings that were left behind.

Hickory Police do not plan to hold a press conference on Thursday. Elisa Baker is still in jail and Adam Baker has relocated to an apartment in Hudson. According to reports, he currently does not have his passport.
http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/632634/human-remains-found-in-wednesday-s-search-for-zahra

nort
11-11-2010, 02:06 PM
It's so sad! I picture Emily walking in that house (or previous home) a few months earlier and going directly to her daughter's room where she was held hostage -- bursting open the door and saying "I'm your MOTHER and you are coming home with me NOW". How Zahra would have felt being rescued by her mom. Would have been amazing.

Feeling my eyes tearing up over this comment ...if only...

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 02:07 PM
People can start a new thread on the POI report from CNN, if desired, so you guys can comb through what is meant there.

Bumping this. If it does appear in linkable form, please start another thread. In the meantime, there are a couple threads for discussion of AB and EB's possible involvement, as well as the possibility of a third party, etc, so the discussion can be brought up there, for now.

This thread is not to become a general discussion thread, and must stay on the topic of the possible remains find.

Thanks for co-operating, guys. I appreciate it.

raisincharlie
11-11-2010, 02:07 PM
new14charlotte tweeted earlier that she arrived in Hickory.

Several things in this video - to include human remains found, Emily arrived in Hudson last evening and was at the house this morning to collect any of Zahra's belongings that were left behind.

Also of significance - AB has surrendered his passport to LE.

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/632634/human-remains-found-in-wednesday-s-search-for-zahra

Patty G
11-11-2010, 02:09 PM
Zahra Baker's mother, Emily Baker, arrived in Hickory Wednesday night and she came to the Baker residence around 6 a.m. Thursday. She wanted to collect Zahra's belongings that were left behind.

Hickory Police do not plan to hold a press conference on Thursday. Elisa Baker is still in jail and Adam Baker has relocated to an apartment in Hudson. According to reports, he currently does not have his passport.
http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/632634/human-remains-found-in-wednesday-s-search-for-zahra

I have a feeling the Bakers took everything out of the house when they were moving last week.

cyberborg
11-11-2010, 02:14 PM
It is very possible that Adam may have given a DNA sample upon his arrest last month.

Agreed.

I'd think LE have Zahra's DNA, either from AB or from the home. I always thought some of the forensics done at the home was also to determine that Zahra did live there ... to narrow the timeline and locations. If she lived there then her DNA would be all over (as well as a possible crime scene).

epiphany
11-11-2010, 02:30 PM
Hickory Police Statement released today:

http://www.wcnc.com/news/zahra-baker/Zahras-biological-mother-headed-to-NC-107221463.html

Hickory police have not confirmed the discovery of human remains, but released a statement Thursday saying, "Search teams in Caldwell County yesterday located evidence that could provide valuable information in the Zahra Baker case. This evidence will be analyzed at the NC State Bureau of Investigation's lab. We understand the concern and interest in this case by the public but we must be cautious in prematurely releasing information so it will not jeopardize any future criminal proceedings."

swedishfish
11-11-2010, 02:34 PM
I had a dream about sweet Zahra last night. I'm praying that she's found today.

Coolmomof4
11-11-2010, 02:38 PM
I'm thinking Emily is here because LE has informed her they found her. I wonder if she has been waiting in Australia this whole time for that sad call.

Pollywog
11-11-2010, 02:39 PM
Ok I am a bit confused. I have not been able to read all the threads so the answer may be in one of them. If they think the parents chopped her body up and did away with it, then why would they even report her missing? Why not just move and act like she was never with them? I mean it seems they moved around a lot anyway.

I feel for her real mom having to visit a house where her daughter was abused. Did she even have contact with Zahra? Just so sad and I hope they find her alive/well but at least find her so she can get justice.

carbuff
11-11-2010, 02:41 PM
Pelvis bone, developed leg bones, there are many bones that to an expert can identify as human (much more difficult with a victim as young as Caylee which is where the bones are smaller and less developed). And of course the skull.

Not to be horrifyingly graphic but with six weeks out in the elements and exposed to animals the torso would not be likely to be found in one piece. Caylee was spread over an entire acre of land and the experts said based on the amount of debris that was on top of the bones they were dispersed fairly early on.

A friend of mine who's a paleontologist told me one time that the most recognizably human bones are the lower jaw and the pelvic girdle. Even experts can misidentify bones from the paw of a small bear as human hand bones, for instance, but no other animal walks or chews like homo sapiens. These bones also usually reveal sex, though that's more difficult in children.

eleni777
11-11-2010, 02:41 PM
I'm thinking Emily is here because LE has informed her they found her. I wonder if she has been waiting in Australia this whole time for that sad call.

IIRC... she said something to this affect in her interview: she would come to america to get her and bring her home.
:praying:

justus4all
11-11-2010, 02:43 PM
Hickory Police Statement released today:

http://www.wcnc.com/news/zahra-baker/Zahras-biological-mother-headed-to-NC-107221463.html

Hickory police have not confirmed the discovery of human remains, but released a statement Thursday saying, "Search teams in Caldwell County yesterday located evidence that could provide valuable information in the Zahra Baker case. This evidence will be analyzed at the NC State Bureau of Investigation's lab. We understand the concern and interest in this case by the public but we must be cautious in prematurely releasing information so it will not jeopardize any future criminal proceedings."

Thanks so much for the link...

IMO...the police will not put out anything to the media..that they HAVE discovered Zahra's bones/remains....even if they have..

IMO...police AWAYS downplay what is going on in an investigation...

As for the reporting on the bone they found last week, I BELIEVE they already have DNA from it and KNOW it is Zahra's bone...but no information will be announced...I HATE it when they keep us guessing....lol..

But one can fairly guess and be right...when there is a lot of police activity, digging, ME on site, evidence flags, no fly zone, no media allowed...that they are finding...EVIDENCE of her. IMO....

IMO...what evil people would "scatter" a child....It makes my skin crawl...

Coolmomof4
11-11-2010, 02:47 PM
IIRC... she said something to this affect in her interview: she would come to america to get her and bring her home.
:praying:

Thank you. I remembered reading that as well, or seeing it on her interview.

Forensic fan
11-11-2010, 02:49 PM
Ok I am a bit confused. I have not been able to read all the threads so the answer may be in one of them. If they think the parents chopped her body up and did away with it, then why would they even report her missing? Why not just move and act like she was never with them? I mean it seems they moved around a lot anyway.

I feel for her real mom having to visit a house where her daughter was abused. Did she even have contact with Zahra? Just so sad and I hope they find her alive/well but at least find her so she can get justice.

I think because there was someone from DSS coming for a home visit soon. I can't find link.

darlin gal
11-11-2010, 02:50 PM
pictures of the large hole:
http://www.wsoctv.com/slideshow/news/25759768/detail.html

Clue Hopper
11-11-2010, 02:51 PM
It would seem to me that if ZB was found, they would have to notify next of kin that she possibly could have been found. Then have to give a positive identification before publicly and positively knowing in fact they have found her. Right now it is just a speculation. JMO.

nursebeeme
11-11-2010, 02:53 PM
On Wednesday, Gunpowder Creek was searched, as well as the brush along the banks. A BOB-CAT was also brought in to trim the brush farther up the banks. In one area, investigators searched about 10 feet from the banks of Gunpowder Creek. At this spot, there is now a two-and-a-half foot deep hole that gapes 10-feet wide. The hole wasn’t visible on Wednesday, before law enforcement closed the road to traffic around mid-day. Inside this hole is a smaller, distinct, round hole in the dirt. All of the dirt from the hole was also taken with the investigators.

A white evidence flag was marked at the edge of the hole. At previous search sites, a white flag was used to mark bones.

The hole was about 25 feet from the end of where a paved access road ends.

http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/news/2010/nov/11/7/investigators-digging-clues-search-zahra-ar-529180/

darnudes
11-11-2010, 02:53 PM
Ok I am a bit confused. I have not been able to read all the threads so the answer may be in one of them. If they think the parents chopped her body up and did away with it, then why would they even report her missing? Why not just move and act like she was never with them? I mean it seems they moved around a lot anyway.

I feel for her real mom having to visit a house where her daughter was abused. Did she even have contact with Zahra? Just so sad and I hope they find her alive/well but at least find her so she can get justice.

Possibly because the Baker family in Australia had tipped Adam Baker off that Emily was looking for Zahra. AB and EB knew it would not be long, add to that their circle of friends, DSS and the school system, they had to act.

Questions were also being raised by people that had seen them out and about but without Zahra.

epiphany
11-11-2010, 02:54 PM
SNIPPED; BBM

GRACE: ...Doctor, you`re the chief medical examiner. What does it mean to you when you were called out to a search and you stand by all day on the scene at the police request?

PERPER: Well, it would mean that there`s a significant information which points that they might be human remains in this location. And therefore I would have the opportunity of examining them before they undergo additional deterioration.

And I can make all kind of determination, whether there is other evidence which can be linked to the body.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/10/ng.01.html

lynnview21
11-11-2010, 02:57 PM
Zahra's belongings were left behind??

This is so heartless, they left her belonging’s behind!! This alone say’s so much!! These people are utterly evil. And, if KB had really loved this little girl, why would she not make sure all of Zahra’s belongings were not removed also??
Zahra is now in the Lord’s arms, she is an angel and can not be hurt anymore.
My prayer’s go out to her Mother, who now has to live with this, and will never get over her guilt for trusting these people to care for her.

MomofBoys
11-11-2010, 03:07 PM
When I did the Caylee search I remember we came across scores of animal bones, all of which were dismissed with hardly more than a cursory glance by LE. They're pretty adept at knowing what needs further analysis, and it likely didn't take them very long at all to identify the remains (didn't say bones, I guess) as human. If there was a torso with a decaying t-shirt nearby, that'd pretty well distinguish it from a deer. The weather has been chilly and fairly dry outside that big storm, right? I wouldn't think a body would be skeletonized completely. That said, if she was indeed dismembered that would go a long way to augment the decomposition.

So sick. I knew as soon as her mom was on the way over that something big was going down. LE knows who it is. They knew who it was with Caylee, too, but you still have to wait for the confirmation. You find a young female caucasian skeleton in an area where she could be expected to be found and that's a pretty good clue.

RIP sweet Zahra. Usually I get drawn into cases because of the circumstances surrounding the disappearance. All it took with her was that one beautiful photo as she got her hearing aids fitted. Her countenance was just lovely.

free2ride
11-11-2010, 03:11 PM
Several things in this video - to include human remains found, Emily arrived in Hudson last evening and was at the house this morning to collect any of Zahra's belongings that were left behind.

Also of significance - AB has surrendered his passport to LE.

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/632634/human-remains-found-in-wednesday-s-search-for-zahra

Article says "Zahra Baker's mother, Emily Bietrich, arrived in Hickory Wednesday night and she came to the Baker residence around 6 a.m. Thursday."

nursebeeme
11-11-2010, 03:14 PM
Article says "Zahra Baker's mother, Emily Bietrich, arrived in Hickory Wednesday night and she came to the Baker residence around 6 a.m. Thursday." that same article says that AB is now living in an apartment in Hudson...

Lera213
11-11-2010, 03:14 PM
I think what they found in the hole was Zahra's amputated leg, they took the soil, leaves as seen in a video. I assume the presumptive test on the debris on and in the hole pointed to another area on Christy road.

Velouria
11-11-2010, 03:18 PM
that same article says that AB is now living in an apartment in Hudson...

...and will soon be moving to an apartment with :behindbar

ynotdivein
11-11-2010, 03:20 PM
BBM

So they *DID* leave behind ZB's belongings.. I find that truly HEARTBREAKING that she had to retrieve them herself..

I just keep thinking of her smelling her daughter's scent in her clothes for the first time in eight years...

JoeFromLB
11-11-2010, 03:20 PM
RIP sweet Zahra. Usually I get drawn into cases because of the circumstances surrounding the disappearance. All it took with her was that one beautiful photo as she got her hearing aids fitted. Her countenance was just lovely.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/18/article-1321513-0B964DA5000005DC-783_233x423.jpg

free2ride
11-11-2010, 03:21 PM
that same article says that AB is now living in an apartment in Hudson...

That is correct. :-)

"Elisa Baker is still in jail and Adam Baker has relocated to an apartment in Hudson."

ynotdivein
11-11-2010, 03:26 PM
pictures of the large hole:
http://www.wsoctv.com/slideshow/news/25759768/detail.html

Caption on slide 6 of 8 there says "The dirt that was dug out of the hole was gone."

I don't like what that makes me think about. Poor Zahra...

adh74
11-11-2010, 03:34 PM
Caption on slide 6 of 8 there says "The dirt that was dug out of the hole was gone."

I don't like what that makes me think about. Poor Zahra...

I think they probably took the soil surrounding her remains so they could use it to assist with estimating time of death maybe? Based on moisture levels of the soil, amount of human decomp in that soil, etc.? Also, there may be DNA or other evidence (hair, saliva, sweat, etc.) in the surrounding soil to tie whomever buried her to the scene.

I'm totally guessing here.

Allusonz
11-11-2010, 03:35 PM
Perhaps the part where he says 'not an entire body' could point to Zahra afterall considering she only had one leg. That would make for 'not an entire body'

UGHH!

Technically it would not be an entire body especially with an above knee amputation especially a high amputation

The prothesis could of been dumped at a different location, as for the bone that was found there we do not know who that belonged to

I believe that LE already has a DNA profile MOO

MHO LE is simple leaving no stone unturned to make the strongest case possible

If it was my daughter i KNOW i would want to visit the last home and have LE give me the information that is known ....we simply do not know what was left behind

MOO

epiphany
11-11-2010, 03:38 PM
Update: additional interviews today

WBTV has confirmed through a source with knowledge of the investigation that police are conducting additional interviews on Thursday, although the source would not say who is being interviewed.

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13465050

NoeticSoul
11-11-2010, 03:42 PM
I just keep thinking of her smelling her daughter's scent in her clothes for the first time in eight years...

Me too. Absolutely heart-wrenching.



That is correct. :-)

"Elisa Baker is still in jail and Adam Baker has relocated to an apartment in Hudson."

He won't be there for very long!

imo

Sherbie
11-11-2010, 03:46 PM
Update: additional interviews today

WBTV has confirmed through a source with knowledge of the investigation that police are conducting additional interviews on Thursday, although the source would not say who is being interviewed.

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13465050

Well I know who I hope is being interviewed...grilled, actually. Maybe some media will see someone coming/going from the PD (if that's where the interviews are taking place).

Patty G
11-11-2010, 03:47 PM
I don't think that any of Zahra's clothing was left behind mainly because Granny was there.

Wise Old Owl
11-11-2010, 03:47 PM
Well I know who I hope is being interviewed...grilled, actually. Maybe some media will see someone coming/going from the PD (if that's where the interviews are taking place).
IMO one will be at the jail and one will be at the PD. Reporters need to watch for the attorneys - to see who comes and goes.

Me thinks there are some deals in the wind..............................

stormsailor
11-11-2010, 03:56 PM
the picture of the excavated area is the textbook protocol for forensic excavation for buried remains.

http://books.google.com/books?id=KMfs_ezuWdMC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=EVIDENCE+AREA+FOR+BURIED+REMAINS&source=bl&ots=Lr64Pzxq_F&sig=xC3ghxe-sWFZd9aS6oNItef6E0o&hl=en&ei=-zrcTMKXBIL6lwealtX-CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=EVIDENCE%20AREA%20FOR%20BURIED%20REMAINS&f=false

Lera213
11-11-2010, 03:58 PM
More interviews, that means EB/AB, LE will now interview each one of them and TURN up the heat. We will hear which one of those got the deal...arrest coming soon me thinks.

panthera
11-11-2010, 03:59 PM
IMO one will be at the jail and one will be at the PD. Reporters need to watch for the attorneys - to see who comes and goes.

Me thinks there are some deals in the wind..............................

The only "deal" I hope LE/DA would concede to would be removing the DP as a possibility. Whoever is responsible for Zahra's death needs to at least spend the rest of their life in prison. :behindbar Hopefully though there aren't any deals being made. MOO

lauriej
11-11-2010, 03:59 PM
I think what they found in the hole was Zahra's amputated leg, they took the soil, leaves as seen in a video. I assume the presumptive test on the debris on and in the hole pointed to another area on Christy road.


?? the amputated leg was, amputated. the prosthetic was already recovered.

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 04:01 PM
Hi guys - stay on the topic of the remains and the tests, please. :wave:

ynotdivein
11-11-2010, 04:02 PM
the picture of the excavated area is the textbook protocol for forensic excavation for buried remains.

http://books.google.com/books?id=KMfs_ezuWdMC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=EVIDENCE+AREA+FOR+BURIED+REMAINS&source=bl&ots=Lr64Pzxq_F&sig=xC3ghxe-sWFZd9aS6oNItef6E0o&hl=en&ei=-zrcTMKXBIL6lwealtX-CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=EVIDENCE%20AREA%20FOR%20BURIED%20REMAINS&f=false

Thanks for the resource, storm! From the first page: "In the case of burned or fragmented remains, or the remains of infants or children, it may be necessary to remove the body along with the surrounding sediment, in order to prevent loss of tiny fragments of bone; the material can then be screened in the morgue or laboratory."

Sherbie
11-11-2010, 04:02 PM
IMO one will be at the jail and one will be at the PD. Reporters need to watch for the attorneys - to see who comes and goes.

Me thinks there are some deals in the wind..............................

Yes, they need to watch for the attorneys for those two, but also for any other person(s) associated with either of them, such as family or ex-family.

The only sort of deal I could see would be for the one who led them to Zahra's remains, including that they'd have to agree to give testimony against any other(s) charged.

Lera213
11-11-2010, 04:03 PM
sorry OT, does anyone have the link to current arrest? I had it but had to reformat HD and lost the link.

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 04:07 PM
This is not a general discussion thread. If it becomes one, it will be shut.

Find or start threads for topics not covered in the OP, please.

Bia.
11-11-2010, 04:07 PM
Is a month enough time for a body to decompose into bones? I thought that took years.

sherryk
11-11-2010, 04:08 PM
Is it just a coincidence that they would release that human remains were found on the day that bio mom reaches the United States. I think that they were waiting to release that type of information to give the courtsey to her before anyone else.. If that is the reason .. thank you LE for giving her the courtsey.

Patty G
11-11-2010, 04:09 PM
Is a month enough time for a body to decompose into bones? I thought that took years.

A body starts to decompose as soon as a person passes on.

Patty G
11-11-2010, 04:10 PM
Question and Answer Thread.
Questions and Answers NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 04:10 PM
Is a month enough time for a body to decompose into bones? I thought that took years.

That depends on weather, animal activity, size/condition of the individual, etc, etc. But, yes, it can happen quite quickly.

An example, 8yo Tori Stafford was killed in April and found in July, IIRC, and she was already in skeletal (or partially skeletalized) remains by that time.

darlin gal
11-11-2010, 04:20 PM
Today, several media outlets, citing the Hickory Police Department as a source, claimed the evidence found at the search site consists of "possible human remains." Hickory police, however, deny making any such statements to the press.

"I would like to know where they got it from," Hickory Deputy Chief of Police Clyde Deal told AOL News. "What we have told everybody is exactly what is on the release. ... I don't know if some of these people are assuming and making a leak [or] if somebody is trusting a source for their information outside this police department. [If they are], that probably is not wise journalism."

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/north-carolina-police-valuable-new-evidence-in-zahra-baker-case/19713026?a_dgi=aolshare_twitter

Celt1997
11-11-2010, 04:23 PM
Today, several media outlets, citing the Hickory Police Department as a source, claimed the evidence found at the search site consists of "possible human remains." Hickory police, however, deny making any such statements to the press.

"I would like to know where they got it from," Hickory Deputy Chief of Police Clyde Deal told AOL News. "What we have told everybody is exactly what is on the release. ... I don't know if some of these people are assuming and making a leak [or] if somebody is trusting a source for their information outside this police department. [If they are], that probably is not wise journalism."

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/north-carolina-police-valuable-new-evidence-in-zahra-baker-case/19713026?a_dgi=aolshare_twitter

He does not seem pleased. I remember with the Caylee case how LE does NOT like when things like this happen. Hopefully it will get sorted out soon, and something more verifiable can be released.

Sherbie
11-11-2010, 04:25 PM
That depends on weather, animal activity, size/condition of the individual, etc, etc. But, yes, it can happen quite quickly.

An example, 8yo Tori Stafford was killed in April and found in July, IIRC, and she was already in skeletal (or partially skeletalized) remains by that time.

True, Ducky. Just a note about the weather -- it was unseasonably hot in NC all through September and into early October. In Hickory, there were multiple days in mid-to-late Sept that the high was above 90 degrees, then mostly 70s/80s in October.

You can check by date here: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KHKY/2010/9/15/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Depending on time of death/disposal (sounds so cold to type, sorry), her remains could have been exposed to some seriously hot weather, more so than you'd imagine for Sept in the foothills.

wenwe4
11-11-2010, 04:25 PM
I had a dream about sweet Zahra last night. I'm praying that she's found today.

Me too Swedishfish! Welcome to WS!

Just a note re: BioMom picking up Zahra's things in the home. I believe she needed to do that because if there is anything left of her's, those items have "Zahra dust" on them. This may be the only "connection" she will ever have to her baby girl. (sorry ot - I will try to be better!)

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 04:27 PM
True, Ducky. Just a note about the weather -- it was unseasonably hot in NC all through September and into early October. In Hickory, there were multiple days in mid-to-late Sept that the high was above 90 degrees, then mostly 70s/80s in October.

You can check by date here: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KHKY/2010/9/15/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Depending on time of death/disposal (sounds so cold to type, sorry), her remains could have been exposed to some seriously hot weather, more so than you'd imagine for Sept in the foothills.

Yep - heat and water are the big factors. Thanks for reminding us, Sherbie, as it might be hard for some of us northerners to remember that cool fall temps are not universal.

Yellow Rose
11-11-2010, 04:28 PM
Oh wow, I took a break from this case and am SO glad that they have now confirmed finding remains (though not yet ID'd). I want so much for this little angel to be flown to her beloved Austrailia. Will LE be making a statement or did I miss that?

xheraldina
11-11-2010, 04:29 PM
Is a month enough time for a body to decompose into bones? I thought that took years.

There are cases when the body decomposes so much in 4 days, so that the cause of death remains a mystery as in Jody Wilson’s case.

Clue Hopper
11-11-2010, 04:45 PM
With a toxicology test they would need at least tissue wouldn't they?

Lera213
11-11-2010, 04:48 PM
Today, several media outlets, citing the Hickory Police Department as a source, claimed the evidence found at the search site consists of "possible human remains." Hickory police, however, deny making any such statements to the press.

"I would like to know where they got it from," Hickory Deputy Chief of Police Clyde Deal told AOL News. "What we have told everybody is exactly what is on the release. ... I don't know if some of these people are assuming and making a leak [or] if somebody is trusting a source for their information outside this police department. [If they are], that probably is not wise journalism."

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/north-carolina-police-valuable-new-evidence-in-zahra-baker-case/19713026?a_dgi=aolshare_twitter

Why now does LE come out with a strong statement when other items found was reported before LE confirmed? With LE coming out strong like this makes me think that they are worried the media is moving faster then they want it to move. It is putting more pressure on LE. That is my guess.

wenwe4
11-11-2010, 04:48 PM
Warning: Science death stuff that may be too graphic for some readers.

I remember in the Caylee case watching a lot of videos from the Body Farm on human decomp in various stages and conditions. There was quite a bit of info about adipocere forming when the body was exposed to water. IIRC adipocere is "grave wax" and it is a chemical reaction when the body decomposes and there is a higher exposure to water and certain conditions.

I make handmade soap with lye and olive/vegetable oils. The "saponification" process that happens to turn these two elements into "soap" is much like the chemical process for making "wax". Grave wax forms when certain conditions are in place as the body is decomposing. I do remember that in higher heat (ie: Florida summer body in the trunk of a car) it was just a matter of a couple of weeks by the time the remains were completely skeletonized.

Lera213
11-11-2010, 04:48 PM
With a toxicology test they would need at least tissue wouldn't they?
I understand they can do toxicology on Hair

wenwe4
11-11-2010, 04:56 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/search-zahra-baker-discovers-human-remains/story?id=12122847

Investigators searching for the missing North Carolina girl Zahra Baker are analyzing human remains found while combing through an area that they had previously checked.

The remains were discovered while searching along Dudley Shoals Road in Caldwell County and the banks and waters of the adjacent Gunpowder Creek, ABC News affiliate WSOC-TV reported today.

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 04:57 PM
I understand they can do toxicology on Hair

Fingernails, as well, I think, which may be found in situ, if not attached. (Sorry, that is graphic.)

Skeletal remains are usually not found entirely without tissue for such uses.

carbuff
11-11-2010, 05:01 PM
With a toxicology test they would need at least tissue wouldn't they?

It depends on what kind of toxicology they're looking at. Some long-term exposures will show up in bone, and they can test hair to see if you've been smoking marijauna. Fingernails also reveal a lot.

DLT88
11-11-2010, 05:13 PM
With a toxicology test they would need at least tissue wouldn't they?

I think they might be able to do it with bone marrow, too, no?

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 05:15 PM
I think they might be able to do it with bone marrow, too, no?

Bone marrow can be used, but it depends on the toxin and how long it was in the blood stream, IIRC. Some toxins show up there better than others, and it is harder to tell how much was in the system before death.

Mrs G Norris
11-11-2010, 05:18 PM
Breaking news of remains found streaming live now http://www.ustream.tv/channel/TIMER55

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 05:23 PM
As WenWe pointed out, the adipocere is likely the best bet for tox, I should think. Though with any of this, if it was an acute poisoning, the toxin might not have had time to store anywhere.

carbuff
11-11-2010, 05:32 PM
Bone marrow can be used, but it depends on the toxin and how long it was in the blood stream, IIRC. Some toxins show up there better than others, and it is harder to tell how much was in the system before death.

Zahra's bone marrow probably has scarring from the extensive chemotherapy, which might make determining anything else more difficult.

Lera213
11-11-2010, 05:43 PM
I can tell you that LE deserves a break in this case...they need evidence strong on the cause of death. I'll be praying for that one specific thing.

Clue Hopper
11-11-2010, 05:45 PM
With her having cancer twice before, would she succumb to fumes from paint such as coming from a counter top paint? or epoxy paint? Links of what type I'm meaning below.

http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=208

http://www.homaxproducts.com/products/kitchenbath/05/index.html

westsidefox64
11-11-2010, 05:46 PM
This is not a general discussion thread. If it becomes one, it will be shut.

Find or start threads for topics not covered in the OP, please.

This is the first forum ive been on can we start a general disscusion thread???

TxLady2
11-11-2010, 06:09 PM
I think they probably took the soil surrounding her remains so they could use it to assist with estimating time of death maybe? Based on moisture levels of the soil, amount of human decomp in that soil, etc.? Also, there may be DNA or other evidence (hair, saliva, sweat, etc.) in the surrounding soil to tie whomever buried her to the scene.

I'm totally guessing here.

You are probably correct.

passionflower
11-11-2010, 06:10 PM
http://www.wsoctv.com/slideshow/news/25759768/detail.html

slideshow....sorry if posted already

WhyaDuck?
11-11-2010, 06:12 PM
This is the first forum ive been on can we start a general disscusion thread???

No. The general rule here is that cases start out as "general discussion" threads, but once a case gets its own subforum, all topics must be handled in discrete, separate threads - otherwise, there was no point in making the case a forum in the first place.

LCoastMom
11-11-2010, 06:22 PM
So do we have a confirmation from LE? Rad still tweets Evidence!

LE said not a body reporting otherwise is off base.

Re: the post page 1 re not a complete body could mean several things - from a decomp event, to animals scattering remains.

Not necessarily meaning what we have feared all along.

It's still an odd thing to say and I continue to fear what we have feared all along...

Blessings to ED, Zahra, LE and SAR - I can't imagine what the searchers have gone thru - same for Mum and sweet Zahra.

Coolmomof4
11-11-2010, 06:28 PM
RadB is tweeting that AB was at the Police Dept today and that people are walking right up to the hole where the "remains" were found today.

LCoastMom
11-11-2010, 06:29 PM
As WenWe pointed out, the adipocere is likely the best bet for tox, I should think. Though with any of this, if it was an acute poisoning, the toxin might not have had time to store anywhere.

If it had time to cause death there should be evidence in her organs or other soft tissue - but it's been over a month - unless LE has contaminated fabric (bagged not exposed to the elements) or some other way contained - I doubt there will be much left for the ME.

Poor baby. These monsters just :furious: me.

LCoastMom
11-11-2010, 06:32 PM
RadB is tweeting that AB was at the Police Dept today and that people are walking right up to the hole where the "remains" were found today.

That's odd for a crime scene. LE had Suburban Dr closed off for days. (unless the remains were contained and they are sure they have 100% of everything.

Wise Old Owl
11-11-2010, 06:34 PM
That's odd for a crime scene. LE had Suburban Dr closed off for days. (unless the remains were contained and they are sure they have 100% of everything.
Could be that LE has specific info (tips) of what was thrown where, or buried where. Once LE finds that then they have not further need to look. One would think they would still keep looking tho. That's why I believe that EB or AB told LE what they put where.

ynotdivein
11-11-2010, 06:38 PM
That's odd for a crime scene. LE had Suburban Dr closed off for days. (unless the remains were contained and they are sure they have 100% of everything.

*Looking for quote from LE who said IIRC: "We're looking for bags or boxes or anything..."

cluciano63
11-11-2010, 06:43 PM
OT, Rochelle, our member's sister was finally found today, maybe it is Zahra's turn :(

lauriej
11-11-2010, 06:45 PM
*Looking for quote from LE who said IIRC: "We're looking for bags or boxes or anything..."

http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/news/2010/nov/10/6/investigators-comb-water-woods-dudley-shoals-ar-526669/

“We have a medical examiner from Chapel Hill (http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/topics/types/facility/tags/chapel-hill/) on the scene,” Courtner (http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/topics/types/person/tags/tommy-courtner/) said. “We’re looking for bags, boxes, bones, anything that can help us.”

Patty G
11-11-2010, 06:47 PM
OT, Rochelle, our member's sister was finally found today, maybe it is Zahra's turn :(

If anyone wants to pay their respects to our fellow WS member, whose sister was found today, here is the thread:

NM NM - My Sister, Rochelle Cremona-Simmons - Urgent - Nov. 2010 - Thread #3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Wondergirl
11-11-2010, 07:10 PM
Jennifer Moxley reports that human remains were found today, and that Zahra's mother went to the Hickory home today to recover Zahra's things that were left behind. :(

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=158671645926#!/profile.php?id=100000838103427&v=wall

cluciano63
11-11-2010, 07:16 PM
If it is true they have found Zahra, I hope they can somehow establish cause of death. It will seem intolerable if no one is punished for this tragedy.

ynotdivein
11-11-2010, 07:20 PM
http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/news/2010/nov/10/6/investigators-comb-water-woods-dudley-shoals-ar-526669/

“We have a medical examiner from Chapel Hill (http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/topics/types/facility/tags/chapel-hill/) on the scene,” Courtner (http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/topics/types/person/tags/tommy-courtner/) said. “We’re looking for bags, boxes, bones, anything that can help us.”

Thank you thank you thank you. I fell down a rabbit hole of enormous dimensions looking for that one... :ouch:

KR2tonenow
11-11-2010, 07:21 PM
They keep talking about DNA profile for Z, could this be why they they need the Mother here?

High probability.

wenwe4
11-11-2010, 07:41 PM
Thank you thank you thank you. I fell down a rabbit hole of enormous dimensions looking for that one... :ouch:

OOOOOhhhhhhh NNNoooooooo! Here's a rope - grab hold! K- everybody pull!

LCoastMom
11-11-2010, 08:02 PM
Jennifer Moxley reports that human remains were found today, and that Zahra's mother went to the Hickory home today to recover Zahra's things that were left behind. :(

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=158671645926#!/profile.php?id=100000838103427&v=wall

(ETA If this is true and not just a rumor) I'm so glad to know she has collected Zahra's belongings.

Either way, I'm so sorry for her pain and loss.

tehcloser
11-11-2010, 08:04 PM
They just left Zahra's belongings at the house?????????????? OMG.

belimom
11-11-2010, 08:06 PM
That's odd for a crime scene. LE had Suburban Dr closed off for days. (unless the remains were contained and they are sure they have 100% of everything.

I remember being shocked when they were through with the area where Caylee Anthony was found and folks started snooping. I guess once they're done then there's no reason to expend time/energy/resources is keeping it blocked from the public.

cyberborg
11-11-2010, 08:17 PM
Hickory Police Statement released today:

http://www.wcnc.com/news/zahra-baker/Zahras-biological-mother-headed-to-NC-107221463.html

Hickory police have not confirmed the discovery of human remains, but released a statement Thursday saying, "Search teams in Caldwell County yesterday located evidence that could provide valuable information in the Zahra Baker case. This evidence will be analyzed at the NC State Bureau of Investigation's lab. We understand the concern and interest in this case by the public but we must be cautious in prematurely releasing information so it will not jeopardize any future criminal proceedings."

Exactly.

So the media in typical fashion are racing ahead with this and they *may* have internal sources but LE are being very careful to make sure that they are 100% sure and immediate family have been notified before making any statement publicly.

It is good the have the 'media scoop' but until LE makes a statement then it is pure speculation ... all we know is LE have recovered evidence. IMO

Patty G
11-11-2010, 08:24 PM
Jennifer Moxley reports that human remains were found today, and that Zahra's mother went to the Hickory home today to recover Zahra's things that were left behind. :(

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=158671645926#!/profile.php?id=100000838103427&v=wall


IMO, we all know there were things left in the home once LE was finished with the house, however, Adam was there with a U-Haul and may have moved everything out of the house at that time.

We don't even know if Emily got into the house because I doubt the house was unlocked. She may have contacted the owner of the home, but we don't even know that either. :banghead:

tehcloser
11-11-2010, 08:32 PM
Well, but we knew all about Adam because of media....and Moxley is media, and she says "to recover Zahra's things that were left behind", so unless we are just picking and choosing which media to believe....then we now "know" there were things left behind after Adam had the u-haul and that E was at the house and collected them.

Patty G
11-11-2010, 08:40 PM
Well, but we knew all about Adam because of media....and Moxley is media, and she says "to recover Zahra's things that were left behind", so unless we are just picking and choosing which media to believe....then we now "know" there were things left behind after Adam had the u-haul and that E was at the house and collected them.

:waitasec: No media was at the house to know anything.

Now Emily may have told Moxley she was going to get Zahra's things, because the media had it out there that Zahra's clothes were in the closet. However, that does not mean Emily got in the house and was able to get anything IF there was anything to get.

IMO, since Granny went with Adam and the U-Haul, Granny would have taken every single thing that belonged to Zahra. JMO

LCoastMom
11-11-2010, 08:41 PM
I remember being shocked when they were through with the area where Caylee Anthony was found and folks started snooping. I guess once they're done then there's no reason to expend time/energy/resources is keeping it blocked from the public.

I can understand the property has to be released and even folks that stopped by the little memorial to pay their respects for Caylee being dumped on that awful piece of land - but the snoops just creep me out.

It appeared to me from videos in the news, after they were done collecting all the evidence from the search for Caylee's remains, that LE removed every scrap of their investigation, which showed so much respect to me and I appreciate their efforts all the more.

Mountain_Kat
11-11-2010, 08:42 PM
Butwhatif just posted in SAR thread that channel 7 is reporting ED was informed that the find yesterday was human remains, and believed to be Zahra.

bethiek
11-11-2010, 08:46 PM
I will say that the media may NOT be off course in what they reported about evidence. I won't post specifics but just to say we are local and DH works in the public. He came home today telling me about a piece of evidence being found yesterday that will prove helpful. This is aside from the remains. If he knew and had heard then media could know more. It's all hearsay and rumors at this point but could have basis in fact. Our local news DID say though that these WERE human remains that were found.

sophclown
11-11-2010, 08:48 PM
They just left Zahra's belongings at the house?????????????? OMG.

So Adam had that big uhaul and he left Zahra's things behind ? This just speaks volumes to me ! Adam's 911 call reporting Zahra missing spoke volumes, too!!! I can't believe he is still walking free!

tehcloser
11-11-2010, 08:54 PM
:waitasec: No media was at the house to know anything.

Now Emily may have told Moxley she was going to get Zahra's things, because the media had it out there that Zahra's clothes were in the closet. However, that does not mean Emily got in the house and was able to get anything IF there was anything to get.

IMO, since Granny went with Adam and the U-Haul, Granny would have taken every single thing that belonged to Zahra. JMO


I wish I was as sure as you that "Granny" would have took everything. I can't say that for sure.

butwhatif?
11-11-2010, 09:01 PM
I just posted this on another thread, but thought I'd put it here too.

Channel 7 news (11am) just reported from Hickory NC that LE confirmed to Emily that the remains ARE human, and are believed to be Zahra. Media from Oz with Emily in NC.

Patty G
11-11-2010, 09:02 PM
I wish I was as sure as you that "Granny" would have took everything. I can't say that for sure.

I feel in my heart that Granny took all of Zahra's belongings especially IF she had any thought that Emily was coming to the USA. Also because Granny cared for Zahra through the most difficult times Zahra had with her cancer treatments and would keep everything that belonged to her granddaughter.

Only time will tell to see if Emily actually got into the house and maybe we will know that real soon. :blowkiss:

belimom
11-11-2010, 09:11 PM
Regarding the remains... Were they near the bone that was found previously? If not, then my theory about the amputation of either the other leg or the remainder of the same leg was what they found. :cry:

How cruel. To what depths of Hell does your soul go to in order to perform such an act?!? :furious:

Hamsterdance
11-11-2010, 09:11 PM
IIRC, the report of AB moving items out with KB to the uhaul mentioned that they took all of Zahra's toys (somehow I doubt she had many :( ), so it makes me wonder what, if anything was left for ED to retrieve from the house.

http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/news/2010/nov/07/baker-empties-house-u-haul-ar-517169/

"One woman asked why Baker was helping a “murderer” and the two got into a shouting match before Baker got into a station wagon loaded with Zahra’s toys and was driven away, McAlpine said.

Baker got into another car and followed his mother. Then the U-Haul drove away behind them."

It must have been traumatizing for ED to see the condition of that horror house! I truly hope she has someone with her for comfort.

If it was Zahra's remains that LE found as the media is reporting, I hope they found 'all' of her, or as much as possible :( :( That little girl deserves a decent burial, and to go home with her Mom. I bet she often dreamed that her real Mom would one day come to rescue her.

Hopefully the next media report I read should announce charges for AB & EB.

tlcya
11-11-2010, 09:46 PM
Wonder if ED even knew that AB had been to the house with a u-haul? How long and when was she in transit? That's a pretty long flight?

Also, even if she did know he's supposedly removed everything, maybe she suspected he had cruelly left behind Z's things. Maybe she just wanted to stand in the space her daughter probably last drew breath, but didn't want to voice that private thought, that very personal need, for all of our (JQ Public) benefit and open herself up for more of our opinions and viewpoints of her every move?

I just don't see why it's relevant to what happened or who harmed Zahra, I guess.

ETA I spose I am not even sure this topic belongs debated here? This is the human remains and DNA thread?

butwhatif?
11-11-2010, 10:11 PM
I just posted this on another thread, but thought I'd put it here too.

Channel 7 news (11am) just reported from Hickory NC that LE confirmed to Emily that the remains ARE human, and are believed to be Zahra. Media from Oz with Emily in NC.


MAJOR APOLOGIES to everyone for my error in reporting the above

CORRECTION:

ED was told about the 'find' when she was at Hickory PD this afternoon (US time I'm assuming) . She is shattered but was expecting it. Hickory PD have not officially said they are human remains as they are waiting for scientific confirmation.

Here's the vid, under the title: Zahra Baker remains 'found' (1:18)
http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/

lauriej
11-11-2010, 10:52 PM
IMO, we all know there were things left in the home once LE was finished with the house, however, Adam was there with a U-Haul and may have moved everything out of the house at that time.

We don't even know if Emily got into the house because I doubt the house was unlocked. She may have contacted the owner of the home, but we don't even know that either. :banghead:

...i'm inclined to go with what the neighbours SAW with their own 2 eyes----that she visited the memorial only---

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/25757069/detail.html

Pondering Mind
11-11-2010, 10:59 PM
...i'm inclined to go with what the neighbours SAW with their own 2 eyes----that she visited the memorial only---

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/25757069/detail.html

That's what I thought too!..and that it was reported that she arrived at the Baker house to retrieve the rest of Zahra's belongings @ 6am this morning.

Pondering Mind
11-11-2010, 11:06 PM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Zahra Baker MEDIA links only **NO DISCUSSION**


nursebeems post from the media thread today~

snipped~
Hickory police would only say they did find evidence and it's being tested by the SBI. Zahra Baker's mother Emily arrived in Hickory from her home in Australia Wednesday night and she went to the house around 6 a.m. Thursday. She wanted to collect Zahra's things that were left behind.

Kamille
11-11-2010, 11:18 PM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Zahra Baker MEDIA links only **NO DISCUSSION** (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5788523&postcount=132)


nursebeems post from the media thread today~

snipped~
Hickory police would only say they did find evidence and it's being tested by the SBI. Zahra Baker's mother Emily arrived in Hickory from her home in Australia Wednesday night and she went to the house around 6 a.m. Thursday. She wanted to collect Zahra's things that were left behind.

ED has been following this case very closely online. She most likely believed, as we all did, that the items that were photographed in Zahra's closet were left behind. No doubt she saw all of the pictures of the house after the search. But as she was on her way over, AB went to the house and picked up the rest of the personal belongings in the house.

I believe I saw or read today that ED spent 45 minutes outside the home looking at and reading notes at the memorial tree, spoke with the neighbours, and took a couple of stuffed animals from the pile at the memorial tree.

MOO

WhyaDuck?
11-12-2010, 01:49 AM
I suggest you move the discussion to the thread linked below, and I will close this thread soon. Rest in peace, sweet Zahra.

2010.11.11 - Hickory Local News says search is over. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community