PDA

View Full Version : GUILTY OH - Tina Herrmann, K Maynard, S Sprang, Murdered, 11.10.2010 -13 yo rescued #9



Pages : [1] 2

Cubby
11-23-2010, 06:31 PM
Please continue here.


#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

zoomom
11-23-2010, 06:45 PM
I want to know if his parents house has a similiar layout. And are we sure it was happening in an upstairs bathroom vs downstairs?

Salem
11-23-2010, 06:58 PM
I moved the post regarding the murdered Florida family. Here is a link for that discussion: Woman, 3 kids found dead in violent Fla. scene - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks!

Salem

zoomom
11-23-2010, 07:05 PM
<modsnip> I wonder if that is a common layout of homes around there. Part of his possibly knowing that that kind of layout was conducive for being covert. (Pre-meditation. Instead of taking them anywhere else).


when I saw the realtor pic of the ouside of the house - I had no clue what kind of houseplan it was. when I saw the inside pics, it became very clear to me how he could keep "disarray" hidden to anyone looking in a window. I was just wondering if he knew ahead of time or if that is a common floor plan in that area.

Not trying to upset anyone - but do we really think he just stumbled on to that tree? Or was that exact tree part of his pre-plan? I wonder about the house in the same way because it took place in broad daylight-(for part of it anyway) like he knew there was slight chance of being seen. JMO

JBean
11-23-2010, 07:39 PM
If a topic is open for discussion and you personally don't want to discuss it-then don't.

antiquegirl
11-23-2010, 07:53 PM
Just wanted to point out for those who are squeamish about seeing pictures of the bathroom that according to the realty information, there were actually 2 1/2 bathrooms in that house. There are pics of the two full ones. We don't actually know which one was used for the horrid deeds. But going by the uncle's statement, it's reasonable to deduce that only one was used.

Texas Mist
11-23-2010, 08:12 PM
Cazzie, the mods don't generally read thru the threads - if you have a question, you can click on the Alert button & ask, or PM a mod for this forum.

HTH.

zoomom
11-23-2010, 08:27 PM
I was wondering about "the parents" house was it a similiar style? - (downstairs family room opening into garage, with a possible bathroom down there too?).

MH was in prison in Co. for what? 6 or 7 years?, then when he returned to Ohio apparently he literally camped outdoors here and there. It seems like he didn't have friends houses to hang out at.

What would make him feel so brazen that he could pull off his hideous despicable crimes during the middle of the day during the middle of the week? Mailmen are arriving, deliveries are being made, meter readers, kids coming home from school, etc.

Was he aware ahead of time he had a "perfect" layout? Why didn't he do it in the middle of the night and "squirrel" them away in his "nut" house? He would have had more time, and TH's home WAS going to be the FIRST place searched after the DQ call.



perhaps I'm not making sense. entirely possible.

peel
11-23-2010, 09:48 PM
I think the poster was perhaps thinking that developed neighborhoods often have similar housing patterns with rooms, windows, doors etc....with that in mind, if the his parents house was similar to Tina's, then he would know exactly how to break in easily....

zoomom
11-23-2010, 10:45 PM
Thanks, Peel. That's all I was trying to say. I am completely unfamiliar with Ohio. And seeing that the area seems rural - I didn't know if every single house was built differently by the owners (like around the many lakes near where I live).:o:o It was from a previous conversation going on in the prior thread......





sorry for any confusion.

I'll be leaving now.

VicVixvi
11-23-2010, 10:49 PM
I think the poster was perhaps thinking that developed neighborhoods often have similar housing patterns with rooms, windows, doors etc....with that in mind, if the his parents house was similar to Tina's, then he would know exactly how to break in easily....

I did a screen capture of both houses & rotated them so that they can be compared side-by-side.

On the left is TH house and on the right is MH's parents home. Both captures were at the same resolution, etc. I'd say the layouts were probably not the same.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12499&stc=1&d=1290566487

Edited to add:

If you look at the Knox County Auditor's pages, you can clearly see that the parent's house is different style (hint: click on 'sketch'). That's not proof that the layouts are different, but the parent's house is larger and has the "Attached Frame Garage" whereas TH's is a basement garage.

Parent's house:
http://www.knoxcountyauditor.org/Data.aspx?ParcelID=35-00285.000

TH's house:
http://www.knoxcountyauditor.org/Data.aspx?ParcelID=35-00014.000

Leila
11-23-2010, 10:54 PM
<modsnip> I wonder if that is a common layout of homes around there. Part of his possibly knowing that that kind of layout was conducive for being covert. (Pre-meditation. Instead of taking them anywhere else).


when I saw the realtor pic of the ouside of the house - I had no clue what kind of houseplan it was. when I saw the inside pics, it became very clear to me how he could keep "disarray" hidden to anyone looking in a window. I was just wondering if he knew ahead of time or if that is a common floor plan in that area.

Not trying to upset anyone - but do we really think he just stumbled on to that tree? Or was that exact tree part of his pre-plan? I wonder about the house in the same way because it took place in broad daylight-(for part of it anyway) like he knew there was slight chance of being seen. JMO

It was stated by a man who knew Tina that her house was ransacked sometime within the past year...............I seem to think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 - 4 months prior to the murders. According to him, that incident wasn't reported to the police.

If this did, in fact, take place I would suspect MH of doing it. It would be a way of making himself familiar with the layout of the house.

antiquegirl
11-24-2010, 12:09 AM
I did a screen capture of both houses & rotated them so that they can be compared side-by-side.

On the left is TH house and on the right is MH's parents home. Both captures were at the same resolution, etc. I'd say the layouts were probably not the same.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12499&stc=1&d=1290566487

Edited to add:

If you look at the Knox County Auditor's pages, you can clearly see that the parent's house is different style (hint: click on 'sketch'). That's not proof that the layouts are different, but the parent's house is larger and has the "Attached Frame Garage" whereas TH's is a basement garage.

Parent's house:
http://www.knoxcountyauditor.org/Data.aspx?ParcelID=35-00285.000

TH's house:
http://www.knoxcountyauditor.org/Data.aspx?ParcelID=35-00014.000

Great sleuthing, VV! The best I could do was look at close-up aerial views of both houses. They appeared to be very different in style, with the parents' house quite a bit larger. It's mostly in subdivisions where one company builds all the houses that you have similar styles within the same neighbourhood. (Ours is like that.) Out in the country, especially where TH lived, fairly segregated, they tend to be more individual.

JMO

CKay
11-24-2010, 02:02 AM
I think the poster was perhaps thinking that developed neighborhoods often have similar housing patterns with rooms, windows, doors etc....with that in mind, if the his parents house was similar to Tina's, then he would know exactly how to break in easily....

No, just from driving by the parent's house and seeing TH's house ... no.

I don't want to say anything further, as it would drag the parent's personal info. into this, and don't want to go there.

CKay
11-24-2010, 02:10 AM
I think the poster was perhaps thinking that developed neighborhoods often have similar housing patterns with rooms, windows, doors etc....with that in mind, if the his parents house was similar to Tina's, then he would know exactly how to break in easily....

Apple Valley is not a tract type neighborhood. Most of the houses have been built by private contractors/builders, some even by the Amish. The styles vary greatly, from very expensive luxury houses on the lake, to more typical family "middle income" type houses, to small vacation homes/cottages, with everything in between. There are also many empty lots, purchased to have access to the Lake and other AV access (beaches, golf house, party house, marina), or as investment. The area has a Property Owners Association, that all homeowners/lot owners must pay dues into (affordable, don't think condo dues, it's lower). To be on the lake or elsewhere, member ID is required. Some of the empty lots are actually owned by the POA for common use.

But I know what you're asking, and the simple answer is "no".

peel
11-24-2010, 02:52 AM
you see, I figure I'm doing good to type out the words on a forum and then there are people like you that actually know how to do things on a computer.....LOL....good job...

CKay
11-24-2010, 03:31 AM
Tried to edit previous message, but couldn't .. so adding these links separately.

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/43028#pagesize-50/pg-1 (sorted high to low ... note that not all homes are *in* Apple Valley, as the zip code is wider)

http://www.applevalleypoa.com/Facilities/tabid/376/Default.aspx ... describes lake and "facilities"

zoomom
11-24-2010, 03:54 AM
Thanks for your explanation, Ckay. Now I understand the lay of the land, so to speak. I appreciate it.




(some of us WS'rs might live smack-dab almost Downtown next to City Hall in our own cities. Not rural.
100 yr old houses, but downtown none the less) THANKS AGAIN.

Java
11-24-2010, 06:21 AM
I still think when MH went into the house the first time TH was the only one there. Once he had done away with her, he had some time in the house before SS arrived. And was able to familiarize himself if necessary.

But also in knowing that he was a burglar at one point. He may of very well been in the house before, possibly when they were all out of town or something. He had been watching them for a while.

He may of done the “ransacking” that is spoken of. But that doesn’t sound like MH. Seems like his MO would have been less obvious, so he could return without suspicion.

TH & GB bought the house in 2007, Hoffman moved to Ohio, to his parents home in 2007 after he was released on parole
Depending on the time over lap here if there was one, possibly MH had moved to his parents in 2007 before TH & GB had bought the home. MH could have even been in it in 2007 when it was still empty, previous to TH & GB purchasing it. Sounds like something he would of done while out snooping around.

Java
11-24-2010, 06:44 AM
Furthermore -
This shot shows all three homes and their relation to one another.
No telling who all MH had watched in the period after he was released from prison.
It’s possible he’s been in several homes out there, and no one even knew.
Ya know - Parents off to work, MH hanging out all day by himself, wondering around, poking into things………

And no one is saying (don’t blame em’) MH may have been recently spending some time back and fourth at his parents home, his elec. was off - Bathing? Eating dinner? Washing clothes? Who knows? ( his house could of been partly gas though?)
But he may have been over there a lot.

I really don’t think his parents in anyway had any clue about any of this, or even MH’s activities.
He was 30 yrs old! His parents likely tried to stay out of his business, and still be supportive if they could.
His parents are probably devastated. I feel terrible for them. MH has made them victims too.

greenthumb
11-24-2010, 08:39 AM
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/895754--russell-williams-suv-spotted-by-police-before-jessica-lloyd-killed?bn=1

Here is an unrelated, but similar, case in that a police officer did a check on a house, knocked on the door, got no answer and left... and the woman in the home was in danger... and ended up murdered. It must be a terrible burden on officers when this happens. If the police protocols do not suggest that any further action is warranted, then IMO we cannot expect more from the individual officers. Just sad to know that help was so close and just a bit further investigation may have saved lives.

greenthumb
11-24-2010, 09:18 AM
From TV10, about fire at TH's home... fire started under pile of clothing? So, just a sick prank?

"Firefighters said the blaze appeared to have started under a pile of clothing beneath the home's front porch, causing some damage to the porch and siding.

It was not clear what sparked the fire and authorities would not say if it was considered suspicious. No one was home at the time."

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/11/23/story-howard-fire-at-tina-herrmann-home.html?sid=102

ETA - video accompanying story has some touching interviews with family & friends of SS.

Also interesting to me is that drivers going by reporters are honking their horns to express their displeasure at the media being there. Really brings home to me that this community and these families are exhausted by the media attention, and want some measure of privacy while they grieve. So, for now, I'm backing off following this case because I want to honour their right to mourn without an audience.

Java
11-24-2010, 09:19 AM
Arrested in Co. 2001
6 years in jail
Moved to Ohio 2007
He had paid about $4,800 toward $2.06 million in restitution (approx 150 per month)
Which he had to have done or it would have been a parole violation. Must have had scheduled visits with PO, and some home visits as well.
Off of parole last month but, not free of restitution.

Hoffman's neighbors along Columbus Road said that he moved into the five-bedroom home about a year ago - 2009 (approx mortgage on 30,000 +/- payments 500 to 700 hundred month? Depending on variables)

Mother said he hasn’t lived with them for two years

Owned a car

Only one job known so far with Fast Eddies? For 3 weeks?

Who’s been paying his bills?? Likely amounting to +/- $1000.00 a month minimum.
Did other odd jobs? Plumbing maybe? Tree trimming maybe?
Played with neighborhood kids, swung on ropes in trees, etc….
Seems to me there would be more people around there that knew MH.
I wonder what the inside of MH’s house looks like? A girl and her 8 year old son lived there at some point?
Psychopaths can be excellent at deceiving people, even the people that are treating them, if they are receiving treatment.

Neighbor said he was good with computers, wonder did LE confiscate one? And what’s on it?
Computer at parents home?
Neighbor said she saw pictures on his cell phone, does LE have that too? And what’s on it?

To many unanswered questions.

CKay
11-24-2010, 11:32 AM
Really brings home to me that this community and these families are exhausted by the media attention, and want some measure of privacy while they grieve. So, for now, I'm backing off following this case because I want to honour their right to mourn without an audience.

Every time I thought about listening to scanner archives yesterday, after I realized it was the day of their visitations and (today the) funerals, I just couldn't bring myself to listen back. I've just been mentally stalled and am trying hard to distract myself elsewhere. So I understand.

Will return to the archives soon ... missing pieces need found, and I want to find them. I'm watching for any big news, but mentally stalled/need mental rest (for today at least) ... may their family and friends find comfort with each other today.

p.s. I did read on FB that someone went to TH and KM's visitation (yesterday) and SM was there. She appeared to be holding up well, smiling and talking, hugging people. FYI ... May she continue to find the strength.

VicVixvi
11-24-2010, 12:33 PM
MH's house is natural gas according to the realtor site from when the home was sold. Interestingly enough, the realtor who had the 49 Columbus Road listing is the same as the one who listed TH/GB home.

Made me wonder if perhaps MH viewed the TH house while it was listed. Possible, but not likely IMO.

http://www.knoxcountyohio.com/property/49-Columbus-Road-Mount-Vernon-Ohio




Furthermore -
This shot shows all three homes and their relation to one another.
No telling who all MH had watched in the period after he was released from prison.
It’s possible he’s been in several homes out there, and no one even knew.
Ya know - Parents off to work, MH hanging out all day by himself, wondering around, poking into things………

And no one is saying (don’t blame em’) MH may have been recently spending some time back and fourth at his parents home, his elec. was off - Bathing? Eating dinner? Washing clothes? Who knows? ( his house could of been partly gas though?)
But he may have been over there a lot.

I really don’t think his parents in anyway had any clue about any of this, or even MH’s activities.
He was 30 yrs old! His parents likely tried to stay out of his business, and still be supportive if they could.
His parents are probably devastated. I feel terrible for them. MH has made them victims too.

antiquegirl
11-24-2010, 01:02 PM
This a high school picture of the correct monster:


http://pics.livejournal.com/druzifer/pic/0035ty7r

http://druzifer.livejournal.com/489785.html

Java
11-24-2010, 01:23 PM
Yep antiquegirl that’s the HS pic! He was, and I repeat WAS a cute kid.

I would really like to know more about MH’s past.
Not that it would change anything now, unfortunately.
But it almost seems like he went from 0 to 60, in 0.4 seconds when he moved back to OH in 2007.
There has to be much, much more to his story.
Even the few people that have come forward, to speak anything about him, have all been shocked that he committed this crime. Other than saying he was odd, quiet, or weird.
There is a lot of people that are odd, quiet or weird, and they don’t commit heinous crimes of this nature.
Some other factor was at play here in combo with a psychopathic personality and being mentally ill. That’s pretty much a given.

It is unfathomable that people like this can just come out of nowhere, and just devastate so many peoples lives, and a whole community.

I will always just feel terrible for those poor families. It will take years to get over it, if they are even able to.

antiquegirl
11-24-2010, 01:45 PM
Yep antiquegirl that’s the HS pic! He was, and I repeat WAS a cute kid.

I would really like to know more about MH’s past.
Not that it would change anything now, unfortunately.
But it almost seems like he went from 0 to 60, in 0.4 seconds when he moved back to OH in 2007.
There has to be much, much more to his story.
Even the few people that have come forward, to speak anything about him, have all been shocked that he committed this crime. Other than saying he was odd, quiet, or weird.
There is a lot of people that are odd, quiet or weird, and they don’t commit heinous crimes of this nature.
Some other factor was at play here in combo with a psychopathic personality and being mentally ill. That’s pretty much a given.

It is unfathomable that people like this can just come out of nowhere, and just devastate so many peoples lives, and a whole community.

I will always just feel terrible for those poor families. It will take years to get over it, if they are even able to.

Nothing has been mentioned if anything (electronics, jewellery, etc.) were missing from TH's home after they went missing. I'm trying to find a motive here. Even organized psychopaths (as opposed to disorganized psychopaths) have a motive, whether it be sexual, greed, jealousy, revenge, etc. (Many go through their lifetimes without killing anyone.) Since the autopsies showed no signs of sexual assault, it would point to another reason. Yet these other reasons can only be explained if there was a prior relationship between MH and one of the victims, or if items had been stolen.

Disorganized psychopaths generally cannot control themselves, get into physical altercations all the time, and often kill out of rage. IMHO, if MH fits into this category, he would not have a clean record since his release from prison. Everything points to either an organized psychopathy or a mental illness. If the latter is the case, it may be used as a legal defense. If robbery was the motive, there should be items missing from the home.

JMO

newshound6
11-24-2010, 01:46 PM
I too want to learn more of MH's history.Have you guys listened to that radio interview with the prosecutor from Colo. per the arson??(this was linked to a few threads back, don't recall exactly when)he was adamant about the extreme destructive overkill kind of character of that fire.MH was off the rails at that point- was convicted,and served 7yrs.- years in prison do not usually improve a violent criminal's behavior.His behavior since returning to Oh. sounds bizarre,he is good looking, and some say "polite" enough to get by for a while in society.

Java
11-24-2010, 02:02 PM
I’m thinking more will come out after GJ. Or at least a trial, if there is one.
He could do everyone some justice and just plead guilty, and take the DP! IMO

But it is interesting how these people, turn out to be THESE people. And sickening as well.
Each and everyone, seems so different, yet the same, at the same time! How the heck is that?

Fortunately these types don’t come along to often, just to bizarre that they could be so off the map.
Maybe he’ll talk someday. Dahmer did. Little did it help though, no one still could fathom it.
Thank goodness.

Java
11-24-2010, 02:16 PM
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/24/story-one
Malek on Hoffman & Hearing

newshound6
11-24-2010, 02:59 PM
MH is a weird one,obviously beyond weird, but he's not really behaving like a text book organized sociopath killer-with the telling where the bodies were, and the bizarre behavior around the neighborhood before hand.I bet his mother has alot of insight into his peculiar mind set.We all try to "understand" this-to somehow "make sense" of this I think it's human nature to keep asking why?

cluciano63
11-24-2010, 03:12 PM
I would be satisfied with LWOP if that meant no trial. Sarah would not have to worry for the next year or two about testifying, she could start to begin the long process of reinventing her life...the community could start to heal, tons of money would be saved. I think the only decent thing John Gardner in CA ever did was plead guilty and let LE find Amber...his crimes are no less horrendous, but the familes have been spared the added pain of a trial. I wish this guy would do the same. The DP takes 20 years anyway, and by that time, laws may change, he may get communted to life anyway.

Texas Mist
11-24-2010, 03:17 PM
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/24/story-one
Malek on Hoffman & Hearing

from your link

As far as Hoffman is concerned, Malek did say, “He’s doing about as well as can be expected of anybody on suicide watch.

'whatever' is my first thought reading that...I'm not in the mood to worry about Hoffman and his feelings.

stormsailor
11-24-2010, 03:19 PM
i think they should take the watch off.

cluciano63
11-24-2010, 03:27 PM
Science needs to examine his brain, however and whenever he dies...

nerosleuth
11-24-2010, 03:28 PM
WBNS reported on the noon newscast that the Ohio State Fire Marshall's Office has ruled that arson as the cause of the small fire Monday evening at Tina Herrmann's home.

Source: http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/11/24/story-herrmann-fire-ruled-arson.html?sid=102

zoomom
11-24-2010, 03:35 PM
From same article:

"Once additional charges are filed, Malek said it could be up to the Knox County Commissioners as to how Hoffman’s defense proceeds.In the event that murder charges are filed, former county public defender Rick Mayhew is available for consultation, Malek said. Mayhew is certified as the first chair for indigent death penalty cases. Malek said he is certified as second chair.
If a capital murder case is filed, the county commissioners would then be responsible in contracting for the case.“Hopefully, these cases don’t occur very often. We believe that to keep an attorney on a retainer would be more costly than to use their services on an individual basis,” said Knox County Commissioner Allen Stockberger."


interesting. His fate is in the hands of the county?

passionflower
11-24-2010, 03:54 PM
Science needs to examine his brain, however and whenever he dies...

With all the MRI's etc....his brain can be studied while alive............
then just forget the suicide watch after he tells all.
Then no trial and they can reexamine his brain then too...........

For Sarah's sake, I would go with LWOP, but prepfer the DP.
He's only 30...........we have to feed, clothe and hospitalize
this creep for 50 years with tax dollars???

passionflower
11-24-2010, 03:56 PM
Did we ever find out WHY he went to CO in the first place?

He seemed semi normal in HS?

Wents nuts about arson in CO..........jail time........

Then back to family again in OH and practically lived next door???

reen
11-24-2010, 05:51 PM
From same article:

"Once additional charges are filed, Malek said it could be up to the Knox County Commissioners as to how Hoffman’s defense proceeds.In the event that murder charges are filed, former county public defender Rick Mayhew is available for consultation, Malek said. Mayhew is certified as the first chair for indigent death penalty cases. Malek said he is certified as second chair.
If a capital murder case is filed, the county commissioners would then be responsible in contracting for the case.“Hopefully, these cases don’t occur very often. We believe that to keep an attorney on a retainer would be more costly than to use their services on an individual basis,” said Knox County Commissioner Allen Stockberger."


interesting. His fate is in the hands of the county?

It sounds like this county doesn't keep public defenders on retainer specifically for death penalty cases (because they rarely have those cases and it would be too costly). The county commissioners hire (contract) one of these two certified attorneys when the need does arise. I doubt the commissioners were the ones who certified them, that was probably county or state law enforcement (DA, AG, etc.). But the article isn't clear about that.

This is such a mystifying case! And what is up with the pile of clothing set on fire under the porch? Was that evidence someone's trying to get rid of? Because who stores piles of clothing under their porch??

NSS
11-24-2010, 06:28 PM
I still think when MH went into the house the first time TH was the only one there. Once he had done away with her, he had some time in the house before SS arrived. And was able to familiarize himself if necessary.

But also in knowing that he was a burglar at one point. He may of very well been in the house before, possibly when they were all out of town or something. He had been watching them for a while.

He may of done the “ransacking” that is spoken of. But that doesn’t sound like MH. Seems like his MO would have been less obvious, so he could return without suspicion.

TH & GB bought the house in 2007, Hoffman moved to Ohio, to his parents home in 2007 after he was released on parole
Depending on the time over lap here if there was one, possibly MH had moved to his parents in 2007 before TH & GB had bought the home. MH could have even been in it in 2007 when it was still empty, previous to TH & GB purchasing it. Sounds like something he would of done while out snooping around.

BBM - Maybe he viewed the house whilst he was looking for somewhere to live. Maybe the family purchased it before he could (possible motive?).

All speculation on my part but possible nonetheless

nomoresorrow
11-24-2010, 06:48 PM
WBNS reported on the noon newscast that the Ohio State Fire Marshall's Office has ruled that arson as the cause of the small fire Monday evening at Tina Herrmann's home.

Source: http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/11/24/story-herrmann-fire-ruled-arson.html?sid=102

Thanks for posting that nerosleuth - A "side" article caught my attention about an escapee convicted for escaping a correctional faciltiy - Couldn't help but think of MH and how this is one guy, under no circumstances, do you want escaping from custody. I do hope that LE is, and will continue to be, extra-extra cautious with him.

JMO ~

belimom
11-24-2010, 07:15 PM
MH's house is natural gas according to the realtor site from when the home was sold. Interestingly enough, the realtor who had the 49 Columbus Road listing is the same as the one who listed TH/GB home.

Made me wonder if perhaps MH viewed the TH house while it was listed. Possible, but not likely IMO.

http://www.knoxcountyohio.com/property/49-Columbus-Road-Mount-Vernon-Ohio

In a small town/area, the same few realtors sell most of the homes.

belimom
11-24-2010, 07:16 PM
WBNS reported on the noon newscast that the Ohio State Fire Marshall's Office has ruled that arson as the cause of the small fire Monday evening at Tina Herrmann's home.

Source: http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/11/24/story-herrmann-fire-ruled-arson.html?sid=102

I think this is someone's sick idea of a joke. :twocents:

belimom
11-24-2010, 07:19 PM
...(snipped)...
For Sarah's sake, I would go with LWOP, but prepfer the DP.
He's only 30...........(snipped)...

I wonder what Sarah wants? If it were me, I'd want him dead. I don't think having him behind prison walls would be enough guaranteed security for me to sleep peacefully at night. Of course, she may just want to go on with her life. Tough call.

peel
11-24-2010, 08:01 PM
we don't know if he committed "a" single arson or if just got caught once.....I am using my imagination that he might have left dna of some "sort" in that apartment he burglarized....if you know what I mean....and he thought a fire would be the only way to get rid of it...

zoomom
11-24-2010, 08:02 PM
BBM - Maybe he viewed the house whilst he was looking for somewhere to live. Maybe the family purchased it before he could (possible motive?).

All speculation on my part but possible nonetheless



Yes, it certainly is possible!

peel
11-24-2010, 08:05 PM
its a terrible burden an anyone let alone a 13 yro old kid to decide life or death for somebody else.....the DA should lay the info out for the family to see...including Stephanies family, and got from there....perhaps Sarah won't need to testify...

13 yros old.....can you imagine...???

nomoresorrow
11-24-2010, 09:40 PM
JVM: Is Someone Else Involved?

TH (D-Attorney) raises the question of whether someone else was involved based on the fire started under the porch at TH. Panel investigator (not involved in this case) was asked what he thought of that - agreed, it could be a possibility.

Although I don't think so, it would certainly change things.

Reannan
11-24-2010, 09:42 PM
<modsnip>....Not trying to upset anyone - but do we really think he just stumbled on to that tree? Or was that exact tree part of his pre-plan?

Zoomom, I had the same question. I did a bit of driving today and I had the problem of looking at about a million trees as I drove. Finding a tree like that to hide 3 bodies in would be a challenge. IMHO he KNEW when he went to the house what he was going to do.

Reannan
11-24-2010, 09:52 PM
I still think when MH went into the house the first time TH was the only one there. Once he had done away with her, he had some time in the house before SS arrived. And was able to familiarize himself if necessary.

I agree.... I think MH got in the house early in the day and was there when TH arrived at home. I do not think he killed her right away, however. Sarah said she saw her Mom in the house.... I think her Mom was probably incapacitated, i.e. bound and gagged at that point. Sorry.... I do not mean to be graphic, but it just makes sense with the few facts we know and with the type of personality MH appears to be. :(

trigger
11-24-2010, 09:56 PM
Sorry but I haven't been here, been so busy but how did the 10yo die?? It was just on NG and it showed he had smaller non fatal stabbed wounds. OMG this is so horrible.

Reannan
11-24-2010, 10:04 PM
Sorry but I haven't been here, been so busy but how did the 10yo die?? It was just on NG and it showed he had smaller non fatal stabbed wounds. OMG this is so horrible.

Hi Trigger.... from my understanding, all 3 were killed by multple stab wounds to their back and chest area with other "small, non-fatal wounds". I don't even want to think what those might have been..... :eek:

zoomom
11-24-2010, 10:19 PM
I still think when MH went into the house the first time TH was the only one there. Once he had done away with her, he had some time in the house before SS arrived. And was able to familiarize himself if necessary.

I agree.... I think MH got in the house early in the day and was there when TH arrived at home. I do not think he killed her right away, however. Sarah said she saw her Mom in the house.... I think her Mom was probably incapacitated, i.e. bound and gagged at that point. Sorry.... I do not mean to be graphic, but it just makes sense with the few facts we know and with the type of personality MH appears to be. :(Reannan - that's what I think probably happened, too (from what we know so far.) What I can't figure out is why? why? why? Tonite on JVM the guests seemed to think his main focus was SM, and the others were collateral damage so he could have SM all to himself. Personally I'm not so sure about that myself. If that were the case - why not just try to kidnap SM only in the first place?? Why commit all that carnage and leave evidence to boot???? To me it was just TOO much for a single kidnapping. That's really idiotic/heinous and makes no sense to me(imo). It seems to me a lot of these murderers consider themselves some kind of "clever masterminds" with all their plotting and figuring and buying tarps, moving vehicles, etc. You would think they would be smart enough to know they WILL be caught and the only thing waiting for them is the DP or LWOP.

CKay
11-24-2010, 10:51 PM
Re: fire

When I was reading back on some FB posts, there was a discussion about what "should" be done with that house. Lots of talk about it needing torn down. Emotions are high locally, and perhaps someone thought they could solve that 'problem'.

One thing I took note of in that discussion though, was that someone said that this isn't the first 'tragedy' that happened in that house. I looked up the former owner's name and tried to do a search myself, but could someone with better sleuthing skills then myself possibly track anything down on this mystery "tragedy"?


481 King Beach Drive - "sales"

9/28/1992 - Seller: Gravel, Conrad & Natalie Buyer: State of Ohio "Land Only"

6/7/1994 - Seller: State of Ohio Buyer: Mickley, Todd & Tisha (Auditor Deed)

4/30/1998 - Seller: Mickley, Todd & Tisha Buyer: Mickley, Tisha (Affidavit, Land Sale Only? No)

6/19/2007 - Seller: Mickley, Tisha Buyer: Borders, Gregory & Herrmann, Tina R.

Details contained on county site indicate that the house was built in 1994. Change of ownership in 1998, taking Todd off of deed.


One other note that is probably not relevant to the question, but thought I'd mention: When searching "Mickley" in the county, there is a LOT of land/property owned under that name (lots of family in area).

Appears to me something may have happened to Todd Hinkley, while living at that address (either that or the change of ownership was due to divorce). "Tragedy" could refer to an accident or some might consider an early (health related) death a "tragedy" perhaps.

http://www.knoxcountyauditor.org/Search.aspx

Leila
11-24-2010, 10:53 PM
Arrested in Co. 2001
6 years in jail
Moved to Ohio 2007
He had paid about $4,800 toward $2.06 million in restitution (approx 150 per month)
Which he had to have done or it would have been a parole violation. Must have had scheduled visits with PO, and some home visits as well.
Off of parole last month but, not free of restitution.

Hoffman's neighbors along Columbus Road said that he moved into the five-bedroom home about a year ago - 2009 (approx mortgage on 30,000 +/- payments 500 to 700 hundred month? Depending on variables)

Mother said he hasn’t lived with them for two years

Owned a car

Only one job known so far with Fast Eddies? For 3 weeks?

Who’s been paying his bills?? Likely amounting to +/- $1000.00 a month minimum.
Did other odd jobs? Plumbing maybe? Tree trimming maybe?
Played with neighborhood kids, swung on ropes in trees, etc….
Seems to me there would be more people around there that knew MH.
I wonder what the inside of MH’s house looks like? A girl and her 8 year old son lived there at some point?
Psychopaths can be excellent at deceiving people, even the people that are treating them, if they are receiving treatment.

Neighbor said he was good with computers, wonder did LE confiscate one? And what’s on it?
Computer at parents home?
Neighbor said she saw pictures on his cell phone, does LE have that too? And what’s on it?

To many unanswered questions.

I'm hoping that LE has a lot of evidence in this case, and with overwhelming evidence, the defense might just plead guilty. That would save Sarah from having to face MH and testify to what she saw.

CKay
11-24-2010, 11:05 PM
In a small town/area, the same few realtors sell most of the homes.

Sam Miller probably has "top sales" in the area, but just from personal observation, most are in Mt. Vernon (town). But he does list someproperty in Apple Valley also, so I wasn't surprised to see both houses listed by him. When I first moved here and was looking at houses, even I talked to him. Very nice, helpful guy.

Until recently, a great majority of the listings in AV were by Apple Cove Realty (started about the time AV was being developed to focus on AV), but the broker had been sick and died this year.

TH and GB's house was purchased in 2007. MH did not buy his house until Nov. 2009, so I'm doubting they were looking in the same timeframe.

zoomom
11-24-2010, 11:20 PM
Sheese! You're good, Ckay!!!!

JenRen
11-24-2010, 11:21 PM
Re: fire

When I was reading back on some FB posts, there was a discussion about what "should" be done with that house. Lots of talk about it needing torn down. Emotions are high locally, and perhaps someone thought they could solve that 'problem'.

One thing I took note of in that discussion though, was that someone said that this isn't the first 'tragedy' that happened in that house. I looked up the former owner's name and tried to do a search myself, but could someone with better sleuthing skills then myself possibly track anything down on this mystery "tragedy"?


481 King Beach Drive - "sales"

9/28/1992 - Seller: Gravel, Conrad & Natalie Buyer: State of Ohio "Land Only"

6/7/1994 - Seller: State of Ohio Buyer: Mickley, Todd & Tisha (Auditor Deed)

4/30/1998 - Seller: Mickley, Todd & Tisha Buyer: Mickley, Tisha (Affidavit, Land Sale Only? No)

6/19/2007 - Seller: Mickley, Tisha Buyer: Borders, Gregory & Herrmann, Tina R.

Details contained on county site indicate that the house was built in 1994. Change of ownership in 1998, taking Todd off of deed.


One other note that is probably not relevant to the question, but thought I'd mention: When searching "Mickley" in the county, there is a LOT of land/property owned under that name (lots of family in area).

Appears to me something may have happened to Todd Hinkley, while living at that address (either that or the change of ownership was due to divorce). "Tragedy" could refer to an accident or some might consider an early (health related) death a "tragedy" perhaps.

http://www.knoxcountyauditor.org/Search.aspx

I did a quick google search, this was the first link (http://www.e-familytree.net/F0/F813.htm). It appears as an accident, so nothing as malicious as what recently occurred there.

SewingDeb
11-24-2010, 11:37 PM
I found this on a Todd Mickley (wife Tisha)...former owners of the home. It says Todd died four years after he married in a ditch cave in.

http://www.e-familytree.net/F0/F813.htm

I don't know if it is the same one.

ETA: JenRen, you beat me to it. : )

antiquegirl
11-25-2010, 12:25 AM
Reannan - that's what I think probably happened, too (from what we know so far.) What I can't figure out is why? why? why? Tonite on JVM the guests seemed to think his main focus was SM, and the others were collateral damage so he could have SM all to himself. Personally I'm not so sure about that myself. If that were the case - why not just try to kidnap SM only in the first place?? Why commit all that carnage and leave evidence to boot???? To me it was just TOO much for a single kidnapping. That's really idiotic/heinous and makes no sense to me(imo). It seems to me a lot of these murderers consider themselves some kind of "clever masterminds" with all their plotting and figuring and buying tarps, moving vehicles, etc. You would think they would be smart enough to know they WILL be caught and the only thing waiting for them is the DP or LWOP.

(RSBM)

ITA. It would have been much simpler for him to just grab Sarah. It didn't have to be that day; he could have done it any time she was alone. But even if she was the target, it doesn't make sense that he went to the effort he did after the murders. Why not leave the bodies there and take off with Sarah in his car? By the time anyone found the family, he and SS could have been hundreds of miles away. For him to take her to his own house and leave her there for days until she was discovered is just asking to be caught in such a small town. None of this is reasonable or logical.

JMO

CKay
11-25-2010, 01:08 AM
Thanks you JenRen and SewingDeb!

I knew someone could find that, and I didn't even think about searching ancestry sites! Live and learn. Thank you!

And yes, I did wonder about the wording and didn't jump on there being anything near as heinous as the murders being involved. But the local (more "local" than me) knew the history.

Thanks!!!

CKay
11-25-2010, 01:24 AM
(RSBM)

ITA. It would have been much simpler for him to just grab Sarah. It didn't have to be that day; he could have done it any time she was alone. But even if she was the target, it doesn't make sense that he went to the effort he did after the murders. Why not leave the bodies there and take off with Sarah in his car? By the time anyone found the family, he and SS could have been hundreds of miles away. For him to take her to his own house and leave her there for days until she was discovered is just asking to be caught in such a small town. None of this is reasonable or logical.

JMO

I made this post, right before the last thread was closed, and not sure if it was seen (so I'll quoted myself here):

"But we just don't know that for sure. I'm not saying this is the most likely scenario, but what *if* they met casually, locally (somehow) before. (I don't want to imply anything and disparage TH or SS) but for this possible scenario only, what if TH knew she was splitting up, had met (evilman) somewhere, and he charmed her into chatting etc? Did anyone notice on the news report at Body Basics, when they showed his picture on the screen, how he was smiling and looking flirty? My thought: who would fear that face??? (and the girl at the gym even said how "nice" he was). So, she's about to be single. Having trouble w. relationship. Sees no harm in this "nice charming guy" (ugg) coming over w. her and SS to have a few beers. Maybe even only if SS was there too (protection). They are close in age ... 30/32. I shudder to think this *is* the scenario, but something similar might have happened? 1000s of ways it could have played out in the details, but understand what i'm trying to say? (if thinking of aaaaall possibilities, this is just one)

*looks up* sorry TH, didn't even want to go there"

It was in response to someone saying that they didn't believe "they" were having beers together that day.
I'm just trying to keep an open mind.
Maybe being local, I don't want to believe that there was a psychopath nearby plotting this, and anyone could have been a victim.
I know so many scenarios have been spinning around in my head, that I just decided to wait for more facts to come out, to make sense of it all.
No one but MH is to blame for this, no matter how it turns out.

p.s. Sheriff Barber saying "or he made himself known" to the family led me down this path. Carefully worded, and makes me wonder what he knows that we don't know. DQ mgr. has been interviewed and maybe MH was hanging around in there. Who knows.

Java
11-25-2010, 06:26 AM
It appears as if they have taken the FB page down. Maybe moved it?
Such a shame trolls, and vandals took advantage of such a sad event.

Hope all went as well as can be expected for the families yesterday, and they will have a peaceful Thanksgiving.

And Happy Thanksgiving to all at WS as well.

CajunCares
11-25-2010, 01:14 PM
I just wanted to stop in and say Happy Thanksgiving to all my new friends at WS. May you have a wonderful day with your families and friends. Hug them and little tighter and make sure they know the love you have for them.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr



Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will direct your paths.

Proverbs 3, 5-6

VicVixvi
11-25-2010, 03:05 PM
...<snippage>...
TH and GB's house was purchased in 2007. MH did not buy his house until Nov. 2009, so I'm doubting they were looking in the same timeframe.

Yeah, I doubt that they were both looking at the same time. TH/GB house would have been on the market about the time MH returned from Colorado and lived with his parents. I was just wondering out loud if MH might have been through (either through an appointment or a burglary) when it was empty.

Leila
11-25-2010, 05:17 PM
The fire was determined to be arson.

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wbns/T5RTM6CGCLQD46LG3

mikeysmommom
11-26-2010, 02:59 AM
The fire was determined to be arson.

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wbns/T5RTM6CGCLQD46LG3

That really is a shame someone tried to burn the house down.When your behind in mortgage payments and go into foreclosure your not covered by house insurance.

CKay
11-26-2010, 07:32 AM
2nd wellness check info ...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119680&page=21

Java
11-26-2010, 09:09 AM
It was in response to someone saying that they didn't believe "they" were having beers together that day.
-----------
I don’t think they were having beers together either. I think the beers were MH’s.
Dahmer and others were big drinkers too. Seems to be a common thread in these occurrences.
I doubt if the family even really knew him. He may of tried to get to know them in some way at sometime but, I think he followed them to DQ, to the gym, to school, to where ever he could for quite sometime, they may not of even been aware of it until recently.

The family in no way had anything to do with it. These people pop up out of the blue, with their own agenda in mind, MH could have targeted any family really. It just happened to be them. MH has probably watched a lot of people without them knowing it.

The hammock in trees, and stuff like that became obvious. But no telling where all he was at night when he was less noticeable.

Java
11-26-2010, 09:34 AM
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We seen a big silver truck sitting in the backyard for the last four days, but I made my kids come in the house because he was having a fire. And he had said to my friend Jen that he had wanted to punch my kid in the face, and my kid`s 8. So I -- the guy`s disturbed, obviously.
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ijvm.01.html
===========

We’ve heard the story of the silver “mystery truck”…………
I really believe this was SS’s Jeep. Used instead of his car (to small) or TH’s truck (to obvious)
In TH garage (to load unseen)
In the back of the house/ w fire (to clean it up, and remove items? Clothes, tape, bags, etc…?)
Put it back in the garage (to hide it)

I don’t think it was a “Truck” per say, I think it was the “Jeep”.

Torsade
11-26-2010, 09:35 AM
I did a bit of driving today and I had the problem of looking at about a million trees as I drove. Finding a tree like that to hide 3 bodies in would be a challenge. IMHO he KNEW when he went to the house what he was going to do.

I've been thinking about this alot. As a seamstress, I notice details about textiles and clothing, stitching, etc, that someone who didn't spend alot of time sewing would NEVER notice. As a medical practitioner, I notice skin color, skin texture, and gait abnormalities that a layman would never notice. I think that it's likely that MH noticed trees the way I notice hems or enlarged thyroids; it's his "thing".

What would help establish premeditation more, in my mind, would be when he purchased the tarps and trash bags, and what he brought with him to the scene.

Just an angle I thought I'd throw out there. Everyone seems shocked that he knew where a hollow tree was, when in fact, he probably knows where MANY hollow trees are, because it's a special interest for him.

My two cents and opinion only.

CKay
11-26-2010, 09:37 AM
It was in response to someone saying that they didn't believe "they" were having beers together that day.
-----------
I don’t think they were having beers together either. I think the beers were MH’s.
Dahmer and others were big drinkers too. Seems to be a common thread in these occurrences.
I doubt if the family even really knew him. He may of tried to get to know them in some way at sometime but, I think he followed them to DQ, to the gym, to school, to where ever he could for quite sometime, they may not of even been aware of it until recently.

The family in no way had anything to do with it. These people pop up out of the blue, with their own agenda in mind, MH could have targeted any family really. It just happened to be them. MH has probably watched a lot of people without them knowing it.

The hammock in trees, and stuff like that became obvious. But no telling where all he was at night when he was less noticeable.

I don't disagree, that this is probably the most likely scenario. I was only saying that any possibility still exists, given that we don't know any more facts. And like I said, my thinking probably has to do with wishful thinking (that myself and family members/other people I know were not in his path ... my house, my brother's house are both visible and "on his way" to Mom's and TH's house). But I know what you're saying, and all I can say now is that I'm glad he is in custody. And I in no one placed blame/responsibility elsewhere.

p.s. yes, it appears the FB page was taken down. Wish I knew why, but probably due to spammers. People get their fun in sick ways these days.

CKay
11-26-2010, 09:46 AM
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We seen a big silver truck sitting in the backyard for the last four days, but I made my kids come in the house because he was having a fire. And he had said to my friend Jen that he had wanted to punch my kid in the face, and my kid`s 8. So I -- the guy`s disturbed, obviously.
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/ijvm.01.html
===========

We’ve heard the story of the silver “mystery truck”…………
I really believe this was SS’s Jeep. Used instead of his car (to small) or TH’s truck (to obvious)
In TH garage (to load unseen)
In the back of the house/ w fire (to clean it up, and remove items? Clothes, tape, bags, etc…?)
Put it back in the garage (to hide it)

I don’t think it was a “Truck” per say, I think it was the “Jeep”.

If "she" (who I don't find overly credible) said four days, then it wasn't ... because, the Jeep was in the garage on Thursday, when LE first showed up (which was 4:15pm). The Jeep is more brown/tan than silver. And "big truck" doesn't fit. But I do think it was the Jeep that he used to dispose of bodies (in garage/easy access from house to vehicle, wouldn't be seen), then came back and did switch with the F150, which was found at Kenyon. I think he left there (Kenyon) in his car, which I think had been parked there before the crime (and then walked to the house). MOO

Java
11-26-2010, 09:49 AM
It’s really awful in a small community, where there is so much trust, everyone knows everyone, etc…
That a person like MH could pop up. It was a roll of the dice that when he got off of parole, that he came to Ohio. He had to be released to somewhere, and his parents were the most likely place.
Now people are thinking back, did they know him, did they see him, did they live close to him?????
Shattering their well known sense of security and familiarity.

Best thing is he did get caught. And he of course he will be locked up forever. There will be no more second or third or fourth instances for this guy. He can’t continue on like some have done for years & years.

There is no fixing these types of people, he will do o.k. in incarceration but, if he were ever released, he would do it again eventually.

Java
11-26-2010, 09:52 AM
If "she" (who I don't find overly credible) said four days, then it wasn't ... because, the Jeep was in the garage on Thursday, when LE first showed up (which was 4:15pm). The Jeep is more brown/tan than silver. And "big truck" doesn't fit. But I do think it was the Jeep that he used to dispose of bodies (in garage/easy access from house to vehicle, wouldn't be seen), then came back and did switch with the F150, which was found at Kenyon. I think he left there (Kenyon) in his car, which I think had been parked there before the crime (and then walked to the house). MOO

I know, I agree the timeline is way off, and the source is shady. But the "siver truck" was mentioned by a couple of neighbors. How long it was there?? I don't have a clue.
But refering to which vehicles he may of used. I think the "silver truck" that has been mentioned, was a "silver Jeep" JMO

CKay
11-26-2010, 09:58 AM
We know the crime occurred before 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 11-10 (TH did not come to work).

We know her truck was in driveway during 1st and 2nd wellness checks (up until 11:30 p.m. that night), but not when 3rd wellness check was done Thurs. a.m.

LE was at scene on Thursday, 11-11, after call from DQ mgr. at 4:15 p.m.
Per Sheriff Barber, TH's truck not there, but SS's Jeep in garage.

TH's F150 found at Kenyon (prompting lockdown and attracting natl. media attention) on Thurs. 6:30 p.m.

MH is spotted near where the van was found on Thursday at around 9:12 p.m.


The missing pieces of timeline of course are MH's movements. He had from Wedn. afternoon until Thursday afternoon to do everything he did (get to house, murders, move SM, dispose of bodies, move trucks around, dispose of evidence etc etc).

Some of the evidence found by searchers are probably relevant and disposed of in this timeframe. Some of the locations fit (near where truck found, near crime scene, near his house).

Java
11-26-2010, 10:06 AM
In correlation with CSI, MH may of given them a time frame and sequence.
Much of which is evidence, and we are probably not going to know for a while.
You being local CKay, hear more than others do.

But how ever he did it, and in what ever order. It was planned. He had been thinking about this for quite some time. It actually surprises me that the Wal-Mart receipt was even found, because it seems like that would have been something he would of done far previous to the event instead of a shotgun thought.
But we have never been told the date of the receipt either, unless I missed that.

LE has a ton of evidence I’m sure.

Sun. when Sarah was located, MH was said to be asleep on his couch. Yet TH’s house was found Thurs. in considerable disarray. He could not of gone back at this point to have retrieved anything, or try to clean up anything. I feel sure he left a lot of loose ends. And LE knows exactly how he did it. I think he felt (in his mind) he would have more time.

The tip that led to Sarah, is still a very big question to me. I wish we knew about that.
Possibly the date on the receipt led them to Walmart video? If the receipt was found on Thurs. they would have had time for that and fingerprints by Sun.

CKay
11-26-2010, 10:21 AM
In correlation with CSI, MH may of given them a time frame and sequence.
Much of which is evidence, and we are probably not going to know for a while.
You being local CKay, hear more than others do.

But how ever he did it, and in what ever order. It was planned. He had been thinking about this for quite some time. It actually surprises me that the Wal-Mart receipt was even found, because it seems like that would have been something he would of done far previous to the event instead of a shotgun thought.
But we have never been told the date of the receipt either, unless I missed that.

I'm local, but haven't heard any rumors, or info. that hasn't been made public or on message boards (topix, fb) that we've all had access to (other than that a deputy lives on the same street as MH, which could enter into the discovery/rescue of SM, but who really knows ... don't know how close, or if it's true).

You are right, and I haven't heard a date/time either. Sheriff Barber has refused to answer that, having been asked numerous times ... possibly/probably because it points to premediation. It is possible that it was after though (he had the time). If he walked there originally, I just don't see him carrying a Walmart bag up the Kokosing Gap Trail, if that's how he got there.

Time will tell. I'll watch the local news more closely, and post anything relevant. I still have some scanner research to do, but have mentally stalled on that (soon).

cluciano63
11-26-2010, 10:26 AM
He may have been sleeping off the "rush" from all of his activity if he was really sleeping when LE found him, and ultimately Sarah. Probably just crashed, not really thinking ahead at that point, after days of being awake and "busy." I imagine it is very exhausting to kill three people, take them out the the woods, etc...

I really do think this guy is insane, though as I've said before, probably not in the legal sense, which is pretty narrowly defined. I hope his lawyers recognize that he won't qualify for insanity, no jury will give him that concession, and that this will lead to a plea, as long as it is LWOP. I think avoiding a trial would be the best thing for the community (and Sarah) now, even if they are feeling like they need to get the death penalty. That would drag on for years and years and not allow healing to begin. And then the appeals are endless, etc...

Java
11-26-2010, 10:29 AM
I think a lot more will come out after the case has been built.

I do not see them trying any other defense, other than to defend MH against the death penalty.

Java
11-26-2010, 10:32 AM
He may have been sleeping off the "rush" from all of his activity if he was really sleeping when LE found him, and ultimately Sarah. Probably just crashed, not really thinking ahead at that point, after days of being awake and "busy." I imagine it is very exhausting to kill three people, take them out the the woods, etc...

I really do think this guy is insane, though as I've said before, probably not in the legal sense, which is pretty narrowly defined. I hope his lawyers recognize that he won't qualify for insanity, no jury will give him that concession, and that this will lead to a plea, as long as it is LWOP. I think avoiding a trial would be the best thing for the community (and Sarah) now, even if they are feeling like they need to get the death penalty. That would drag on for years and years and not allow healing to begin. And then the appeals are endless, etc...

He won't get "insanity" to much planning. He is insane though no doubt.
But even Dahmer's insanity plea got rejected. And if that is not insane there, I don't know what is. It's almost impossible to get insanity on premeditation.

Maybe MH will avoid a trial. It would be the best for Sarah.

Torsade
11-26-2010, 10:54 AM
I keep trying to think of scenarios that did NOT include premeditation. I just really don't want to believe that anyone could be that evil (though I know they can be - I try to pretend otherwise).

What do we know about this case that would make this scenario impossible:

Let's say MH has been "infatuated" with Tina, and has been stalking/watching her. He breaks into the home (possibly for the second time) and Tina returns from somewhere to find him in the house. He snaps, grabs a knife and kills her. He believes he has some time, because the kids don't get home until later, so he drives to Walmart and buys a tarp and trash bags to dispose of the body. He's a bit freaked out, so he buys beer as well. He goes back to the house, drinks to calm down, and in walks Stephanie. Stephanie meets the same fate as Tina, and now it's time for the kids to get home. Sara touches something inside of him, maybe she begs, maybe he just has a soft spot somewhere in that black soul of his, and he cannot kill her. But he cannot leave her there, either, so he puts her in his basement, and then returns to hide the bodies.

What evidence are we aware of, that would make this scenario impossible?

CKay
11-26-2010, 11:05 AM
I keep trying to think of scenarios that did NOT include premeditation. I just really don't want to believe that anyone could be that evil (though I know they can be - I try to pretend otherwise).

What do we know about this case that would make this scenario impossible:

Let's say MH has been "infatuated" with Tina, and has been stalking/watching her. He breaks into the home (possibly for the second time) and Tina returns from somewhere to find him in the house. He snaps, grabs a knife and kills her. He believes he has some time, because the kids don't get home until later, so he drives to Walmart and buys a tarp and trash bags to dispose of the body. He's a bit freaked out, so he buys beer as well. He goes back to the house, drinks to calm down, and in walks Stephanie. Stephanie meets the same fate as Tina, and now it's time for the kids to get home. Sara touches something inside of him, maybe she begs, maybe he just has a soft spot somewhere in that black soul of his, and he cannot kill her. But he cannot leave her there, either, so he puts her in his basement, and then returns to hide the bodies.

What evidence are we aware of, that would make this scenario impossible?

He didn't buy the beer at Walmart (minor detail) but there is no evidence that would make your scenario impossible (nor my scenario last page). So many possibilities exist, and I too hope that he was not just stalking around. No matter what actually happened and who may have known whom, only MH is to blame. Reality is that he could very well just be one of those psychopaths.

Time will tell.

Java
11-26-2010, 11:07 AM
It may very well be likely though that the DP was/will be removed, for a confession or a guilty plea.
That would not surprise me in the least.

However, there is probably mountains of evidence against MH, and prosecution may of felt there was no need for a plea. They are going to fry him anyway. And never even offer him one.

Whether or not to spare a trial, for all families concerned, cost, etc…. Will be a big factor in what each side is willing to accept. MH has little or NO defense.

Either way 300+ years or the DP, he’s toast. Any of it is to good for him if you ask me.
I can’t even think of a punishment that would fit this crime. My brain doesn’t imagine things horrible enough to do to him. But being that MH is a full tilt, off the rails psychopath, incapable of processing emotion or fear, it would probably mean nothing to him anyway. This will always punish the victims and public more than it will punish him unfortunately.

But in my imagination & reality, I want to think of him being as miserable as possible for what ever time he has left to be a waste of the air he breaths.

Torsade
11-26-2010, 11:19 AM
No matter what actually happened and who may have known whom, only MH is to blame.

Oh, I assign 100% of blame on MH. It would just make the world seem a little less scary, if he "went off" for some reason, and this wasn't all conceived ahead of time!

Torsade
11-26-2010, 11:21 AM
I forgot we know about the Walmart receipt, so that's how you know the beer wasn't bought there. Maybe he bought the tshirt because his became soiled?

CKay
11-26-2010, 11:30 AM
Oh, I assign 100% of blame on MH. It would just make the world seem a little less scary, if he "went off" for some reason, and this wasn't all conceived ahead of time!

Me too!

Java
11-26-2010, 11:31 AM
100% of the blame is MH -

It was all premeditated, he is a “classic” psychopath.
And unfortunately this is where he snapped.

He’s been “off” for quite sometime. The arson and killing animals was the first big clue (that we know of)
But you can’t really look into the future from there. In hindsight though, it all makes perfect sense.

I’m sure jail for 6 years accelerated or intensified it. But it was there before jail. And it escalated after jail.
Being that these people tend to be loners, lots of clues are over looked or not seen altogether, until it’s to late.

CKay
11-26-2010, 11:33 AM
I forgot we know about the Walmart receipt, so that's how you know the beer wasn't bought there. Maybe he bought the tshirt because his became soiled?

Possibly.

The receipt showed garbage bags, tarp or tarps (sheriff said it both ways, but in recapping tarp was plural), shirt and deli sandwich.

Some have thought that maybe the sandwich was for SM (if after the fact).

Java
11-26-2010, 11:40 AM
I would like to think somewhere in my heart that the sandwich was for Sarah too.

But I doubt it, he probably ate it on the way back to where ever he was going because he was hungry.
As complex as some of the thoughts that make these people tic are, some of them are very basic. Usually the only concern they feel/show is for or about themselves.
The t-shirt was probably for him too.

And that could have been something as simple as he saw it on the way to the check out line, liked it and picked it up for himself.

Normal people would not be able to put these thoughts into one motion considering the other things MH had going on at the time. But a psychopath can. He could of even stopped and shopped for Christmas Lights.
They are incredibly vacant people. And at MH’s stage they don’t get “well”. They are what they are.

snapdragon
11-26-2010, 04:37 PM
The receipt date issue has been driving me batty!! I had stated much earlier on that I thought I had read somewhere that the receipt was dated BEFORE the family went missing. But I couldn't find the link... Well, I found it. I searched through the past posts, and Nursebeeme had linked it. It is a story in the Columbus Dispatch, when they were searching for the remaining three, but had already rescued SM:

Searchers were credited yesterday with finding what authorities said could be "significant" evidence: a tarp and some trash bags with duct tape. Suspect Matthew J. Hoffman was known to have bought tarps and trash bags before the three vanished along with 13-year-old Sarah Maynard, Herrmann's daughter who was found alive Sunday bound in the basement of Hoffman's home.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...r-miracle.html

Now, I know LE has declined to officially comment on the date of the receipt. However, local reporters theoretically could have spoke to an employee at Walmart who rang MH up, or a leak in LE.. who knows. Or could be shoddy reporting, as we've seen so much of...

Leila
11-26-2010, 05:52 PM
It was in response to someone saying that they didn't believe "they" were having beers together that day.
-----------
I don’t think they were having beers together either. I think the beers were MH’s.
Dahmer and others were big drinkers too. Seems to be a common thread in these occurrences.
I doubt if the family even really knew him. He may of tried to get to know them in some way at sometime but, I think he followed them to DQ, to the gym, to school, to where ever he could for quite sometime, they may not of even been aware of it until recently.

The family in no way had anything to do with it. These people pop up out of the blue, with their own agenda in mind, MH could have targeted any family really. It just happened to be them. MH has probably watched a lot of people without them knowing it.

The hammock in trees, and stuff like that became obvious. But no telling where all he was at night when he was less noticeable.

It has to be frightening in retrospect for the people living in the area to know that MH was watching people, plotting and planning. It could have been anyone.

I don't think there was any sort of drinking together. It's more likely that MH drank all that beer during the time he spent there. Even though we don't have any confirmed time frame from beginning to end, I think MH was likely in Tina's house from mid-afternoon on Wednesday, Nov. 10th to the early morning hours of November 11th. It may have taken him all night to do whatever he did, with him leaving around dawn.

We know when LE found the truck at Kenyon College, but we don't know when MH left it there. It could have been there all day on Thursday.

Leila
11-26-2010, 07:11 PM
If "she" (who I don't find overly credible) said four days, then it wasn't ... because, the Jeep was in the garage on Thursday, when LE first showed up (which was 4:15pm). The Jeep is more brown/tan than silver. And "big truck" doesn't fit. But I do think it was the Jeep that he used to dispose of bodies (in garage/easy access from house to vehicle, wouldn't be seen), then came back and did switch with the F150, which was found at Kenyon. I think he left there (Kenyon) in his car, which I think had been parked there before the crime (and then walked to the house). MOO

I agree. I don't find the next-door neighbor to MH very credible. Stephanie's Jeep was found in the garage on Thursday, Nov. 11th, and I too think it was used to transport the bodies.

I have a Jeep Cherokee that's 4-wheel drive.........they come in either 4-wheel or 2-wheel drive. I'd like to know if the Jeep was 4-wheel drive. The area where MH took the bodies was a dirt road that no doubt becomes rutted after rains, and opens out into a clearing. Having 4-wheel drive would help negotiate the road and field.

I think MH took Tina's truck and left it at the college as a means to throw LE off the track as well as transportation back to where he left his car. Upon initial investigation, LE had four missing people and the vehicle of one of them was left at the college, and LE may have initially thought the people had left together in that truck and were in the area of the college.

peel
11-26-2010, 08:16 PM
'What evidence are we aware of, that would make this scenario impossible?''

why would his heart be moved by a 13 yro but not a fair haired cute little 11 yro?...yes he was a boy but at that age their features are soft and innocent..

I'm still hung up on the "hero" remarks about SM and I am leaning on her avoiding death in an ACTIVE sense....maybe hiding...locking the door...etc....

but how can anyone of us understand this monstrosity?....

peel
11-26-2010, 08:24 PM
WOW....I missed the whole date thing on the receipt....but if he did buy that stuff before the murders.....just wow....just WOW.....of course the defense could claim he was making a natural buy for a tree trimmer.....

CocoChanel
11-26-2010, 09:15 PM
'What evidence are we aware of, that would make this scenario impossible?''

why would his heart be moved by a 13 yro but not a fair haired cute little 11 yro?...yes he was a boy but at that age their features are soft and innocent..

I'm still hung up on the "hero" remarks about SM and I am leaning on her avoiding death in an ACTIVE sense....maybe hiding...locking the door...etc....

but how can anyone of us understand this monstrosity?....

You are right, it is futile to try to make any sense of a truly evil and senseless atrocity, yet it is the human-ness in us that strives to I suppose. I too have been caught by the 'hero' remarks. Sarah did something amazing to have survived this. We may never know exactly what she did or how she got through this, and, I almost think it best if we DON'T know. She has lost so very much. I would love to offer her some sort of privacy or anonymousity (is that a word?), though I fear she will be forever publicly marked, if not scarred, by this horrific event. God bless her now, and throughout the rest of her life.

peel
11-26-2010, 10:29 PM
I think it would be good for her to tell her story....but maybe when she is of age..like 18 or so.....the public craves for truely heroic people and for people that face great odds.....I lost my mom when she was nearly 82 and yet I feel so cheated....imagine the poor little 13 yro.....I just can't imagine...but sometimes sharing our losses can be a great relief....

CKay
11-26-2010, 10:47 PM
The receipt date issue has been driving me batty!! I had stated much earlier on that I thought I had read somewhere that the receipt was dated BEFORE the family went missing. But I couldn't find the link... Well, I found it. I searched through the past posts, and Nursebeeme had linked it. It is a story in the Columbus Dispatch, when they were searching for the remaining three, but had already rescued SM:

Searchers were credited yesterday with finding what authorities said could be "significant" evidence: a tarp and some trash bags with duct tape. Suspect Matthew J. Hoffman was known to have bought tarps and trash bags before the three vanished along with 13-year-old Sarah Maynard, Herrmann's daughter who was found alive Sunday bound in the basement of Hoffman's home.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...r-miracle.html

Now, I know LE has declined to officially comment on the date of the receipt. However, local reporters theoretically could have spoke to an employee at Walmart who rang MH up, or a leak in LE.. who knows. Or could be shoddy reporting, as we've seen so much of...

Thanks for finding that.

Remember that the reporting on this case has not always been 100% accurate.

But with that said, it is possible that the Dispatch reporter dug something up on their own. The Dispatch is in Columbus (nearest big city) and I have no doubt they had a reporter(s) up here. I also recall at a few of the official news conferences, there was a reporter that would stop him as he was almost at the door, to ask him a question and he responded. We couldn't hear the convo.

Hopefully all of the pieces can fall into place soon, so everyone can make sense of this (somehow, if possible).

CKay
11-26-2010, 10:52 PM
I agree. I don't find the next-door neighbor to MH very credible. Stephanie's Jeep was found in the garage on Thursday, Nov. 11th, and I too think it was used to transport the bodies.

I have a Jeep Cherokee that's 4-wheel drive.........they come in either 4-wheel or 2-wheel drive. I'd like to know if the Jeep was 4-wheel drive. The area where MH took the bodies was a dirt road that no doubt becomes rutted after rains, and opens out into a clearing. Having 4-wheel drive would help negotiate the road and field.

I think MH took Tina's truck and left it at the college as a means to throw LE off the track as well as transportation back to where he left his car. Upon initial investigation, LE had four missing people and the vehicle of one of them was left at the college, and LE may have initially thought the people had left together in that truck and were in the area of the college.

There are 3 pictures of SS's Jeep at this link, if you can tell anything that way:

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/photos/

Right now, one row from bottom. It looks like MVN had access that the other reporters did not have. For anyone who listened to the news conferences, when Sheriff Barber answered "George", he is from MVN.

p.s. These pictures just jogged my memory. TH's truck is also 4 wheel drive? "F x 4" "Off Road"

CKay
11-26-2010, 11:02 PM
Speaking of the Dispatch, here is their story today:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/faith_values/stories/2010/11/26/horrific-killings-raise-perplexing-issue-of-evil.html

"Horrific Killings Raise Perplexing Issue of Evil"

CKay
11-26-2010, 11:51 PM
Checking for any news on the 10tv site, saw this horrific story in Columbus (happening yesterday, Thanksgiving Day):

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/11/26/story-columbus-three-dead-broadmeadows.html?sid=102

"Woman, 2 Children Found Stabbed to Death Inside Apartment"

*feels sick all over again*


ETA: Texas Mist has added this story to WS: OH - Mother, 2 Children Fatally Stabbed / 1 Man Injured (Columbus) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

CKay
11-27-2010, 02:59 AM
Discussion about the death penalty considerations in Ohio:

http://www.marionstar.com/article/20101125/NEWS01/11250304

(Marion is nearby Knox)

""Life without parole brought people off of the death penalty," Anderson said.

There are 156 men and one woman on death row in Ohio. In 2005, five of those people were sentenced to death, in 2006 four, in 2007 four, in 2008 three and in 2009 two."


"While any murder is bad, the consideration for the death penalty should be reserved for especially heinous crimes, such as may be the case in Knox County, where recently a 30-year-old man is suspected of stabbing to death two women and a boy, dismembering them and holding captive a girl for days with no apparent motive."

(Long article)

Leila
11-27-2010, 03:11 AM
There are 3 pictures of SS's Jeep at this link, if you can tell anything that way:

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/photos/

Right now, one row from bottom. It looks like MVN had access that the other reporters did not have. For anyone who listened to the news conferences, when Sheriff Barber answered "George", he is from MVN.

p.s. These pictures just jogged my memory. TH's truck is also 4 wheel drive? "F x 4" "Off Road"

I can't be sure. Stephanie's Jeep is a Grand Cherokee, but a newer model than mine. Mine has a 4-wheel drive emblem on the rear cargo door on the right side of the vehicle. There wasn't one on Stephanie's. But, there is a vehicle identification insignia on the passenger side of the vehicle that I can't quite make out, but it looks like "4-wheel" might be part of that identification.

Texas Mist
11-27-2010, 03:11 AM
Checking for any news on the 10tv site, saw this horrific story in Columbus (happening yesterday, Thanksgiving Day):

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/11/26/story-columbus-three-dead-broadmeadows.html?sid=102

"Woman, 2 Children Found Stabbed to Death Inside Apartment"

*feels sick all over again*


ETA: Texas Mist has added this story to WS: OH - Mother, 2 Children Fatally Stabbed / 1 Man Injured (Columbus) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120808)

this one made me sick too.

And while following Tina,Sara,Kody & Stepanie's updates, I kept seeing the 'dad' who slammed the baby around & tossed him in the dumpster. :(

There's a thread on that in the Crimes/Spotlight on Children.

Ohio has taken a big toll in the last few weeks with some of the most violent crimes against the innocent that I've come across - at least those so close together chronologically & logistically. :(

Can't help but think 'the end of days'. :(

CKay
11-27-2010, 03:27 AM
this one made me sick too.

And while following Tina,Sara,Kody & Stepanie's updates, I kept seeing the 'dad' who slammed the baby around & tossed him in the dumpster. :(

There's a thread on that in the Crimes/Spotlight on Children.

Ohio has taken a big toll in the last few weeks with some of the most violent crimes against the innocent that I've come across - at least those so close together chronologically & logistically. :(

Can't help but think 'the end of days'. :(

It seems so. Columbus is a big city with "big city" crime. It's a shame that Tia went back to this perp, after a domestic violence charge was filed. If the charges stick, that man killed his own child, as well as another.

I would like to be on the jury for that one and the "Dad" who killed his baby. I'd have no problems sitting through those trials and convicting (if proven).

With Tina, Kody and Stephanie, I think a whole different type of "evil" is at play in this one, as we've discussed at length. Ohio is where Dahmer was born/raised too, but I'm not willing to blame the area/location. As the Dispatch article stated today (which was very well written I think), everyone is trying to make sense of it.

Perhaps our involvement with WS could bring about a sense of "the end of the days". I've just joined following this case, but have read all through the cases of Brittanee Drexel (spent 13 yrs. in Roch NY, and my 2 adult children still live there), Joe Neff (caught my eye, tugged at my heart strings), and now this new one. I can see my mental anquish growing. So many cases everywhere, and if I keep reading cases, I may come to the conclusion. I need to find some good news to read :(

Texas Mist
11-27-2010, 04:03 AM
It seems so. Columbus is a big city with "big city" crime. It's a shame that Tia went back to this perp, after a domestic violence charge was filed. If the charges stick, that man killed his own child, as well as another.

I would like to be on the jury for that one and the "Dad" who killed his baby. I'd have no problems sitting through those trials and convicting (if proven).

With Tina, Kody and Stephanie, I think a whole different type of "evil" is at play in this one, as we've discussed at length. Ohio is where Dahmer was born/raised too, but I'm not willing to blame the area/location. As the Dispatch article stated today (which was very well written I think), everyone is trying to make sense of it.

Perhaps our involvement with WS could bring about a sense of "the end of the days". I've just joined following this case, but have read all through the cases of Brittanee Drexel (spent 13 yrs. in Roch NY, and my 2 adult children still live there), Joe Neff (caught my eye, tugged at my heart strings), and now this new one. I can see my mental anquish growing. So many cases everywhere, and if I keep reading cases, I may come to the conclusion. I need to find some good news to read :(

We do read about the worst of the worst here - and just when we think we've heard the most disturbing & horrifying, there's another case that's more heinous and evil.

IME, it's good to take a break & read good news or something uplifting....the horrors that people can inflict on other people, especially upon the young ones, can bring ya down....it can be too much to process - and lots of people IRL don't even want to hear about it or discuss it so in ways it's isolating.

Glad you've joined us, Ckay...I can tell you have a big heart...goodness knows the world needs as much of that as it can get.

Java
11-27-2010, 06:14 AM
While all murders are heinous and disgusting, it is unfortunately a fairly common occurrence.
This Ohio case stands out to me because MH is among a rarer class of psychopaths. By far not the common killer. They don’t turn up often, thank God. Many of them have been studied, and there are still many unanswered questions. Often times they can’t even explain themselves to themselves! Much less a normal person trying to make any sense out of it.

There is still a lot of good news to read, especially around the holidays. We just must remember to live everyday the best we can, never overlook helping others, and be thankful for everyday that we do get here with our families and friends. Much of the world is good, and that is easy to find too, if we’re looking for it.

Noway
11-27-2010, 02:39 PM
I can't be sure. Stephanie's Jeep is a Grand Cherokee, but a newer model than mine. Mine has a 4-wheel drive emblem on the rear cargo door on the right side of the vehicle. There wasn't one on Stephanie's. But, there is a vehicle identification insignia on the passenger side of the vehicle that I can't quite make out, but it looks like "4-wheel" might be part of that identification.

4x4 on side of Jeep
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/17/101_0551.500.jpg

Authorities are asking the public to call and report information if they recall seeing Stephanie Sprang's Jeep Cherokee, Matthew Hoffman's Toyota Yaris or Tina Herrman's Ford F-150 pickup truck any time since last Wednesday. (Photos submitted)

http://www.knoxpages.com/?NewsID=8181&CatID=1


Bold/Color by me.

I think this answers your questions. It's a Cherokee and it's 4 wheel drive.

nursebeeme
11-27-2010, 07:16 PM
just got back from thanksgiving in knox county. Seems I have some ex ties to the dairy queen manager. go figure. this was THE topic of the area this holiday. I can share more but most of it would be considered rumor so perhaps we need a parking lot thread? mods what do you think?

hope everyone had a great holiday.

Beeble
11-27-2010, 08:00 PM
I was working "black" Friday, and heard an interesting short story from a co-worker, I was there when the situation took place, but didn't see who she was talking to.

Anyway. (I hope this is allowed, it's "fact" as far as I know, but not totally clear on if the person was who they really said they were or not)

An older gentleman (and I'm not sure who he was with) came in to the store that I work at. He was looking at some things, and somehow the fact that he was "visiting" came up. I think she had asked how his Thanksgiving went. Anyway, he had said he only came up from Florida for a funeral because his daughter and grandson had been murdered. Pausing for a moment, my co-worker said she was sorry to hear that. At some point he had said it had taken place in Knox County. She then asked about the girl, and he had said she hasn't had much time alone as she has been spending a lot of time out with friends and such. That she hasn't fully had a moment to deal with it. (sorry my details are so vague, my last 2 days have been very long)

Take it as you will, truth or not. If this guy was telling the truth (and I truly hope someone wouldn't lie about such things) then I'm shocked he could speak so easily about it. However, I wasn't participating in the conversation so I truly don't know everything that transpired. the odd part was, I don't live, or work, very close to Knox County. I am in Ohio, and the only thing I could think of is he drove up. I also found it odd that he would be out shopping...I guess different people deal with things differently.

Small world.:waitasec:

Noway
11-27-2010, 08:43 PM
I'm confused because he mentioned his daughter and grandson and your coworker mentioned "the girl" ... how did the jump to the "the girl" come about?

Then, I'd wonder what kind of store it was, and whether he could have been waiting while someone used the bathroom there, or nearby.

I was able to find men and women with the names of Tina's parents in FL; however, none of the RHs or BHs lived at the same address or in the same city as any of the others.

Granted it was a quick search ...

ETA
Found article (http://www.nbc-2.com/Global/story.asp?S=13545205)that mentions where in FL RH is from; did not mention BH.

ETA
Sometimes it's easier to talk to a total stranger about the horror in your life than it is to talk with someone you are close too ... he could say anything and he'd never see your coworker again.

Also wondering how many woman/male children have been murdered in Knox County (adding) in the last month?

cluciano63
11-27-2010, 09:13 PM
OT but I tend to go to the Pets thread in the private area when I need a break from the crimes...there is always something there that makes me smile.

Beeble
11-27-2010, 09:26 PM
I'm confused because he mentioned his daughter and grandson and your coworker mentioned "the girl" ... how did the jump to the "the girl" come about?

Then, I'd wonder what kind of store it was, and whether he could have been waiting while someone used the bathroom there, or nearby.



Snipped your post.

As I said, I've had a very long 2 days and when she gave me the details of the story it happened at around roughly 6am today, and it is after 8pm now. Knowing her, I tend to doubt it was just a "jump" in conversation, I'm sure there was something else said to keep conversation going. As I said, I wasn't apart of it so I don't know every detail. I know she didn't recite the full conversation. She had also mentioned that it was this case because I remember her mentioning the case..she mentioned briefly something like "something weird happened yesterday" and me being curious, thinking it was some weird customer issue asked her what. she went on to state "I talked to the father/grandfather of the mother and son that were murdered in Knox County just recently" I asked it was the triple homicide where the young girl got away, and she said yes.

And no, she mentioned someone was with him, and they were shopping. It took place at the jewelry counter ({mod snip} if the store name is needed here). In order to be serviced, people had to draw numbers yesterday and wait to be called upon.

Like I said, I seriously hope it wasn't someone "claiming" that they were a grandparent. Never know these days.

CKay
11-28-2010, 08:43 AM
Also wondering how many woman/male children have been murdered in Knox County (adding) in the last month?

The last murder before these were in December 09 (yet unsolved). If I'm not mistaken, that was the only murder in 09 also.

Java
11-28-2010, 09:02 AM
TH’s parent s were from Ft. Myers, FL. It was reported in the news some time back.
It was probably them, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to say they were them if they weren’t.
Especially an older couple.

It’s my understanding that Sarah is living some 45 miles away from Howard with her Father & Grandmother? I’m taking that on the report of where the funeral for TH & KH was held?
Correct me if I am wrong plz.

Would someone tell me what a “parking lot thread” is, I’m new here.

CKay
11-28-2010, 10:48 AM
TH’s parent s were from Ft. Myers, FL. It was reported in the news some time back.
It was probably them, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to say they were them if they weren’t.
Especially an older couple.

It’s my understanding that Sarah is living some 45 miles away from Howard with her Father & Grandmother? I’m taking that on the report of where the funeral for TH & KH was held?
Correct me if I am wrong plz.

Would someone tell me what a “parking lot thread” is, I’m new here.

Sheriff Barber said that LM lived in Hilliard, which is a suburb of Columbus. LM is married, so it would be living w. father and stepmom. I don't think he ever lived here. TH wasn't from here either, at least this is all my understanding (and I'm not "from here" either). Not sure what brought TH and GB to area. His family seems to be elsewhere also.

Anxiously waiting to hear about a parking lot thread as well.

Cazzie
11-28-2010, 10:52 AM
Apparently they've taken down the "Pray for the Maynard Kids" FB? I know that Stepahnie's is still up, and presumably the newer one for Sarah.

CKay
11-28-2010, 10:52 AM
I was working "black" Friday, and heard an interesting short story from a co-worker, I was there when the situation took place, but didn't see who she was talking to.

Anyway. (I hope this is allowed, it's "fact" as far as I know, but not totally clear on if the person was who they really said they were or not)

An older gentleman (and I'm not sure who he was with) came in to the store that I work at. He was looking at some things, and somehow the fact that he was "visiting" came up. I think she had asked how his Thanksgiving went. Anyway, he had said he only came up from Florida for a funeral because his daughter and grandson had been murdered. Pausing for a moment, my co-worker said she was sorry to hear that. At some point he had said it had taken place in Knox County. She then asked about the girl, and he had said she hasn't had much time alone as she has been spending a lot of time out with friends and such. That she hasn't fully had a moment to deal with it. (sorry my details are so vague, my last 2 days have been very long)

Take it as you will, truth or not. If this guy was telling the truth (and I truly hope someone wouldn't lie about such things) then I'm shocked he could speak so easily about it. However, I wasn't participating in the conversation so I truly don't know everything that transpired. the odd part was, I don't live, or work, very close to Knox County. I am in Ohio, and the only thing I could think of is he drove up. I also found it odd that he would be out shopping...I guess different people deal with things differently.

Small world.:waitasec:

Only explanation I can offer is that perhaps he needed clothing, since it has turned cold here (and he's from Florida). And I agree, sometimes it's easier to talk (get it out) talking with strangers. If he was visiting SM, being in Columbus area (if that's where you are) makes sense (since that's where she is).

CKay
11-28-2010, 10:56 AM
Apparently they've taken down the "Pray for the Maynard Kids" FB? I know that Stepahnie's is still up, and presumably the newer one for Sarah.

Yep, several days ago, right after the fire (whatver day that was). Not sure why, but probably spammers/haters.

mikeysmommom
11-28-2010, 12:42 PM
If you go to towards the bottom of the page that lists the forums, you will see the parking lot and a lot of other threads.

Noway
11-28-2010, 02:56 PM
Snipped your post.

As I said, I've had a very long 2 days and when she gave me the details of the story it happened at around roughly 6am today, and it is after 8pm now. Knowing her, I tend to doubt it was just a "jump" in conversation, I'm sure there was something else said to keep conversation going. As I said, I wasn't apart of it so I don't know every detail. I know she didn't recite the full conversation. She had also mentioned that it was this case because I remember her mentioning the case..she mentioned briefly something like "something weird happened yesterday" and me being curious, thinking it was some weird customer issue asked her what. she went on to state "I talked to the father/grandfather of the mother and son that were murdered in Knox County just recently" I asked it was the triple homicide where the young girl got away, and she said yes.

And no, she mentioned someone was with him, and they were shopping. It took place at the jewelry counter (XXXX if the store name is needed here). In order to be serviced, people had to draw numbers yesterday and wait to be called upon.

Like I said, I seriously hope it wasn't someone "claiming" that they were a grandparent. Never know these days.

Thanks! I didn't want the exact store (removed here because I hate to think of anyone finding YOU that way) just the type of store.

It does not sound like someone "claiming" to be someone they were not. I guess life continues for the friends and family of those murdered, no matter how much they might like it to stop until they are ready to move onward.

fran
11-28-2010, 04:53 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/11/28/us/AP-US-Bodies-in-Tree.html?_r=1&hp

Ohioans Raise Cash for Kids of Victims Put in Tree

HOWARD, Ohio (AP) — Residents in a small Ohio community devastated after the bodies of two women and an 11-year-old boy were found in a tree are raising money for the victims' families.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<full article at link>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Leila
11-28-2010, 05:30 PM
TH’s parent s were from Ft. Myers, FL. It was reported in the news some time back.
It was probably them, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to say they were them if they weren’t.
Especially an older couple.

It’s my understanding that Sarah is living some 45 miles away from Howard with her Father & Grandmother? I’m taking that on the report of where the funeral for TH & KH was held?
Correct me if I am wrong plz.

Would someone tell me what a “parking lot thread” is, I’m new here.

I think Sarah's father is married, as one article stated she's living with her father and stepmother. I think the stepmother has a couple of children as step siblings were mentioned. I remember thinking at the time that it would be good for Sarah to live in a family household with other children.

Leila
11-28-2010, 05:45 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/11/28/us/AP-US-Bodies-in-Tree.html?_r=1&hp

Ohioans Raise Cash for Kids of Victims Put in Tree

HOWARD, Ohio (AP) — Residents in a small Ohio community devastated after the bodies of two women and an 11-year-old boy were found in a tree are raising money for the victims' families.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<full article at link>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm glad to hear that the community is continuing to provide financial support for the children of Tina and Stephanie. Poor Sarah has had her llife turned upside down and is facing many challenges because of the frightening ordeal she went through.

antiquegirl
11-29-2010, 12:20 AM
Snipped your post.

As I said, I've had a very long 2 days and when she gave me the details of the story it happened at around roughly 6am today, and it is after 8pm now. Knowing her, I tend to doubt it was just a "jump" in conversation, I'm sure there was something else said to keep conversation going. As I said, I wasn't apart of it so I don't know every detail. I know she didn't recite the full conversation. She had also mentioned that it was this case because I remember her mentioning the case..she mentioned briefly something like "something weird happened yesterday" and me being curious, thinking it was some weird customer issue asked her what. she went on to state "I talked to the father/grandfather of the mother and son that were murdered in Knox County just recently" I asked it was the triple homicide where the young girl got away, and she said yes.

And no, she mentioned someone was with him, and they were shopping. It took place at the jewelry counter ({mod snip} if the store name is needed here). In order to be serviced, people had to draw numbers yesterday and wait to be called upon.

Like I said, I seriously hope it wasn't someone "claiming" that they were a grandparent. Never know these days.

The story sounds plausible and all I can think of that would be relevant is perhaps he was looking for a gift for Sarah. Maybe a picture locket or something else to remember her mother and brother by. It doesn't really matter, but it got me wondering.

JMO

mysteriew
11-30-2010, 01:57 AM
I wonder just how much reading this guy did and what his chosen subject matter was?

Several years ago when D. Radar was captured, he talked very calmly and openly about his murders of a family. There was always a question there about whether he had help on that case because it was speculated that one person could not have kept a father and mother and two kids in control and all the while murdering the family. He said what he did was to keep control of the kids. If you have control of the kids, you have control of the parents. He had the mother to tie up the father while he held one of the kids, then he put the kids in a bathroom while he tied up the mother. He promised not to harm the kids if they cooperated. But of course he did harm them.

Also this case reminds me very strongly of the Groene case. The more I read about it, the more I am reminded.

The family had allegedly talked about seeing a man in camo watching their house. Before attacking the Groene family, Duncan also observed the home and the kids, even using a telescopic lens.

Duncan killed the mother, stepfather and one son and kidnapped two young kids. In this case, MH killed a mother, a friend and one son and kidnapped a teen.

Both Duncan and MH bought their supplies before committing the crimes.

Incidently Duncan was a complete stranger to the Groene family. He targeted them when he drove by the home and just happened to see the kids outside playing. He made his preparations then killed the family and kidnapped the children a few days later.

peel
12-01-2010, 12:09 AM
I've heard a story about how Duncan knew about the family....that there was apparently some internet connection in some way..

MCDRAW
12-01-2010, 10:14 AM
I've heard a story about how Duncan knew about the family....that there was apparently some internet connection in some way..


I think Duncan just rode by and saw them playing in a pool.

newshound6
12-01-2010, 10:30 AM
I think Duncan just rode by and saw them playing in a pool.

Since Hoffmann's family lived about 1/3mile up the road from Herrmann he probably saw them in the yard.In one online obit. a local person said "I'm so used to seeing the family out in the yard"-they perhaps spent alot of time outdoors and MH saw them and got fixated.

miimaa
12-01-2010, 11:10 AM
I've heard a story about how Duncan knew about the family....that there was apparently some internet connection in some way..

There was no connection. Totally random that he found THEM. Horrible horrible thing. The only story that was worse was Jeffrey Dahmer.

Leila
12-01-2010, 03:38 PM
Since Hoffmann's family lived about 1/3mile up the road from Herrmann he probably saw them in the yard.In one online obit. a local person said "I'm so used to seeing the family out in the yard"-they perhaps spent alot of time outdoors and MH saw them and got fixated.

With Hoffman's family living so close to Tina's house, he likely saw the family as he passed by the house and that was the beginning.

From what's been reported, it sounds like the family was aware and concerned that someone was watching them.

In the very beginning, as this case unfolded, I was wondering what would cause the Dairy Queen manager to call the police and ask for a welfare check after Tina didn't show up at work. Most people would assume that an employee was sick or had car trouble when they didn't show up for work, but in this case the manager seemed to immediately be concerned that something terrible had happened.

I think now that Tina shared with her manager and co-workers that she was being watched and was worried. I think this was why the manager was so concerned and acted promptly.

As it turned out, the manager being persistent about checking Tina's house, got the police involved within hours. The local police asked for help from other LE agencies and it was the combined efforts of all involved that resulted in Sarah being rescued. Who knows what might have happened if there had been any delays.

Openmind
12-01-2010, 07:37 PM
There was no connection. Totally random that he found THEM. Horrible horrible thing. The only story that was worse was Jeffrey Dahmer.


I totally agree. Timing and opportunity -- the truly scary part of these kind of cases. Evil truly can just walk in the door and do as it wants.

the seeker
12-01-2010, 08:02 PM
I've heard a story about how Duncan knew about the family....that there was apparently some internet connection in some way..

No connection to them, but he did have a blog on the internet and he posted about how he was going to go out and do something to really "hurt society". So he planned to do this (the crime, not specifically to the Groene's) ahead of time, and posted a clue to it on his blog.

Openmind
12-01-2010, 09:37 PM
No connection to them, but he did have a blog on the internet and he posted about how he was going to go out and do something to really "hurt society". So he planned to do this (the crime, not specifically to the Groene's) ahead of time, and posted a clue to it on his blog.

You're absolutely correct. And no one paid the least bit of attention to his sick rants. Not only that, but Duncan was a Level III sex offender that was charged with molesting two little boys, but he was able to post bond with a hot check. He used the money his "friend" loaned him for the bond to finance his murderous rampage. And all the while he was posting on the Internet his evil intent.

There are a lot of evil people in the world. MH being one of them, but Duncan trives on being evil -- then and now.

I pity SM and the victims' families for not only their terrible loss but that they will be forever burdered with dealing with MH's legal issues.

georgiajean
12-04-2010, 11:59 AM
On the Skelton Boys thread, Java posted this link to Cell Phone pinging:
http://blog.a1peoplesearch.com/2007/11/cell-phone-ping-is-it-legal.html

In this article, it indicates that cell phones can be pinged by LE, even when the phone is turned off. Anyone know if this is really true? Maybe this helps explain how they knew SM was in MH's home? If she had her phone but it was off, or the battery was dead?

mikeysmommom
12-04-2010, 01:29 PM
I just hope they only took the DP off the table,after reading about EB's deal I pray they left life w/o parole in place.When will they charge him? They know he did it and have tons of proof.

tfrohning
12-04-2010, 01:47 PM
There was no connection. Totally random that he found THEM. Horrible horrible thing. The only story that was worse was Jeffrey Dahmer.

IDK but if Hoffman was not caught he would went on to be worse than Dahmer.

tfrohning
12-04-2010, 01:54 PM
On the Skelton Boys thread, Java posted this link to Cell Phone pinging:
http://blog.a1peoplesearch.com/2007/11/cell-phone-ping-is-it-legal.html

In this article, it indicates that cell phones can be pinged by LE, even when the phone is turned off. Anyone know if this is really true? Maybe this helps explain how they knew SM was in MH's home? If she had her phone but it was off, or the battery was dead?

IDK if that true:waitasec: IMO I think it great that pings can be used in finding the missing and be use in court has a tool for timelines..

mikeysmommom
12-04-2010, 02:02 PM
IDK but if Hoffman was not caught he would went on to be worse than Dahmer.

I do believe you are correct.Hoffman IMO might have gone on to be the worst of them all. I still wonder how many times he may have killed before. I do not believe this was his first time killing people,whether or not they ever connect him to others doesn't mean he did not kill before IMO.If Tina's boss did not alert LE after being so brave to enter that house, that did not give him time he needed to go back and set fire to that home.If he did get to burn it down he might not have been caught.In a sick and very twisted way,putting them inside of a tree they might not have ever been found.I am not sure if even dogs would have been able to smell the bodies.If the only opening was 35 ft or more in the air,would dogs have been able to pinpoint that tree?A tree has so many layers they might not have ever been found unless the tree fell down.If he killed anyone else(like a runaway) and put them in another semi hollowed tree who would know?

cluciano63
12-04-2010, 02:50 PM
I have read that as long as the battery is in the phone, it can be traced, even if turned off. If true, it does make one wonder why missing people are not found more often, or sooner. If that is how they found Sarah, that would be pretty amazing, I know it is not confirmed.

Leila
12-04-2010, 04:28 PM
I do believe you are correct.Hoffman IMO might have gone on to be the worst of them all. I still wonder how many times he may have killed before. I do not believe this was his first time killing people,whether or not they ever connect him to others doesn't mean he did not kill before IMO.If Tina's boss did not alert LE after being so brave to enter that house, that did not give him time he needed to go back and set fire to that home.If he did get to burn it down he might not have been caught.In a sick and very twisted way,putting them inside of a tree they might not have ever been found.I am not sure if even dogs would have been able to smell the bodies.If the only opening was 35 ft or more in the air,would dogs have been able to pinpoint that tree?A tree has so many layers they might not have ever been found unless the tree fell down.If he killed anyone else(like a runaway) and put them in another semi hollowed tree who would know?

It's scary to even contemplate all the "what ifs" in this case. I too believe this wasn't the first time MH has killed. I'm sure that eventually there will be some cases that have gone unsolved that will now be solved.

I also agree that he likely planned to set the house on fire and burn it to the ground, destroying evidence of his crime. Authorities would have been left with a house totally destroyed, no bodies in it so the people must have escaped the fire or weren't home when the fire happened, but they've disappeared. This may have become an unsolved crime.

It was only because Tina's manager was so concerned that the police got involved before MH could finish his plan. Who knows what would have happened with Sarah.

Tikki
12-05-2010, 12:12 PM
I have read that as long as the battery is in the phone, it can be traced, even if turned off. If true, it does make one wonder why missing people are not found more often, or sooner. If that is how they found Sarah, that would be pretty amazing, I know it is not confirmed.

BBM
I have read the same, re the battery and the phone being off.

Re Sarah, I think if that was how they found her she would have been found the first day of the search...

jmo

TexasLil
12-06-2010, 12:46 PM
Do we know when the Knox County Grand Jury is scheduled to convene in December?

Texas Mist
12-08-2010, 03:16 PM
Matthew Hoffman's attorney said mental health experts examined him and decided he was no longer a danger to himself, 10TV News reported.

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/12/07/story-mount-vernon-hoffman-removed-suicide-watch.html?sid=102

JenRen
12-08-2010, 06:33 PM
Matthew Hoffman's attorney said mental health experts examined him and decided he was no longer a danger to himself, 10TV News reported.

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/12/07/story-mount-vernon-hoffman-removed-suicide-watch.html?sid=102

Does this mean he will be placed with the general population now?

Solstice Canyon
12-08-2010, 09:36 PM
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/12/08/hoffman-off-suicide-watch-at-jail

This article states that he is still segregated at this time, but does not have some of the same restrictions and is no longer being checked in every 10 min. by jail staff. He is not in with the general population.

JenRen
12-08-2010, 10:32 PM
Thank you Solstice!

JenRen
12-30-2010, 03:42 PM
I was wondering if any of the locals from the area have heard how Sarah is doing, or any other updates on this case? TIA, she crosses my mind a lot.

CKay
12-31-2010, 03:36 AM
I was wondering if any of the locals from the area have heard how Sarah is doing, or any other updates on this case? TIA, she crosses my mind a lot.

Haven't heard any updates in the news.<modsnip>

Should be soon on Grand Jury ... hopefully (think they said about 6 weeks or so).

Leila
01-02-2011, 08:41 PM
Haven't heard any updates in the news. <modsnip>

Should be soon on Grand Jury ... hopefully (think they said about 6 weeks or so).

Hopefully, the grand jury will come back with the indictment sometime this month. Once indicted, it will likely be a long wait for he trial.

Texas Mist
01-04-2011, 11:43 AM
<snip>

According to Knox County Prosecutor John Thatcher, a Grand Jury returned a ten-count indictment last night against Matthew J. Hoffman, 30, which includes three counts of Aggravated Murder. The indictment alleges that Hoffman purposely caused the deaths of Tina R. Herrmann, Ms. Herrmann’s son Kody Maynard, age 11, and her neighbor Stephanie L. Sprang, on November 10, 2010. The Aggravated Murder charges further allege that Hoffman murdered the victims while he was committing the offense of Aggravated Burglary in Herrmann’s residence at 481 King Beach Drive, Howard, Ohio. The indictment also includes an Aggravated Burglary count.

The charges:

Aggravated Murder
Tampering with Evidence
Gross Abuse of a Corpse
Aggravated Burglary
Rape
Kidnapping


more here

http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/jan/04/knox-co-suspect-charged-aggravated-murder-rape-ar-349724/

Cazzie
01-04-2011, 11:56 AM
Thank you for posting this, Texas Mist. I'd been wondering how long it would take (seems like forever).

Rest in peace, Tina, Kody, Stephanie, and Tanner.

Continued prayers and blessings for SM (especially), the families, and their friends.

Texas Mist
01-04-2011, 12:01 PM
<snip>

The indictment issued in central Ohio's Knox County on Tuesday carries a possible penalty of life in prison without parole. Prosecutor John Thatcher says the death penalty was dropped at the wish of the victims' families.

http://www.local12.com/news/state/story/No-death-penalty-in-Mount-Vernon-triple-slaying/77xONfIFEUempVvS7BlfPg.cspx

CKay
01-04-2011, 02:38 PM
In addition to the aggravated murder counts that carry a maximum penalty of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, Hoffman faces the following additional possible penalties for the remaining counts:

•Aggravated burglary (first-degree felony): Three to 10 years imprisonment.

•Rape (first-degree felony): Three to 10 years imprisonment.

•Kidnapping (first-degree felony): Three to 10 years imprisonment.

•Tampering with evidence (third-degree felony): One to five years imprisonment.

•Gross abuse of a corpse (fifth-degree felonies): Six to 12 months imprisonment on each count.

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/01/04/hoffman-indicted-on-aggravated-murder-charges

CKay
01-04-2011, 02:41 PM
<snip>

The indictment issued in central Ohio's Knox County on Tuesday carries a possible penalty of life in prison without parole. Prosecutor John Thatcher says the death penalty was dropped at the wish of the victims' families.

http://www.local12.com/news/state/story/No-death-penalty-in-Mount-Vernon-triple-slaying/77xONfIFEUempVvS7BlfPg.cspx

So be it, but I wish this weren't the case. Just knowing this creature is breathing the same air is disturbing.

CKay
01-04-2011, 02:46 PM
The prosecutor’s office will release additional information about the decision not to pursue the death penalty immediately after Hoffman’s arraignment in the Knox County Court of Common Pleas later this week.

The indictment includes a kidnapping charge accusing Hoffman of taking 13-year-old SM from her mother, Tina Herrmann’s home after he allegedly committed the aggravated murder and aggravated burglary crimes. He is also accused of rape for allegedly forcing SM to engage in sexual conduct with him once in his home at 49 Columbus Road, Mount Vernon.

Not sure why I was thought this would be any different, as the worst case has been true at every step of this case. But I was still hoping that last part wasn't true.

Ronso
01-04-2011, 03:07 PM
It would've been decades before he saw the needle anyways. And that's too pleasant of an end for this guy.

I actually take solice in life in prison for him. His fellow inmates probably won't appreciate he's a child killer/rapist, and will have bunches of fun activities to engage him in.

CKay
01-04-2011, 03:14 PM
It would've been decades before he saw the needle anyways. And that's too pleasant of an end for this guy.

I actually take solice in life in prison for him. His fellow inmates probably won't appreciate he's a child killer/rapist, and will have bunches of fun activities to engage him in.

That's true too.

It could be that he plans on pleading guilty, without the DP. But who knows (I guess we will by end of week perhaps).

reen
01-04-2011, 05:12 PM
Wow, what grace on the part of the families for not wanting the DP for this vermin.

Well, he wanted some people gone?...now he can rot his life away without a soul around, likely being in a "protective" isolation cell until he dies as a child rapist/killer. That's about right. Thanks for the updates, WS folks.

Tikki
01-04-2011, 05:45 PM
Just skip this..:(

JenRen
01-05-2011, 01:18 AM
Thank you all for the updates, poor SM. :(

Salem
01-05-2011, 01:29 AM
Dear Posters,

As you all know from today's news, additional charges have been added for Hoffman. These charges include sexual offenses against a minor. These charges lead us to make a change in the current posting rules.

From this point forward, please only refer to the minor child by initials only. Even when snipping from the news, change the name to initials.

WS has a policy of protecting minors to the best of our ability. This child has suffered horribly and we don't want to add to that suffering. We can not completely hide her name at this point, but we can do our best to help keep it out of the front page of google from here on out.

Please thank this post to show you have read it.

Thank you all for understanding and thank you for caring about this child and her family.

Salem
Mod

georgiajean
01-05-2011, 02:36 AM
That's true too.

It could be that he plans on pleading guilty, without the DP. But who knows (I guess we will by end of week perhaps).

I would really like to see him plead guilty and safe SM from testifying at trial.

Cazzie
01-05-2011, 07:54 AM
I would really like to see him plead guilty and safe SM from testifying at trial.
I don't really expect someone that performed such montrous and cruel acts to have a heart big enough to extend compassion. It was only a matter of time before he probably would have killed SM, too.

I, too, hope that he pleads guilty so that SM won't have to ever revisit that horrid week again, except in the company of family, friends, and counselors.

CKay
01-05-2011, 01:19 PM
Family mum while awaiting arraignment

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/01/05/family-mum-while-awaiting-arraignment

"Hoffman’s arraignment is scheduled for Thursday. At which time, Thatcher is expected to release further details regarding the absence of the death penalty specification."

Wondergirl
01-05-2011, 08:16 PM
Hearing set for Ohio man charged in triple slaying

Wednesday, January 05, 2011

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - An unemployed tree-cutter suspected in the deaths of three people whose dismembered bodies were found in a hollow tree will have his first court hearing to answer the charges against him.

Knox County Prosecutor John Thatcher has announced the 30-year-old Hoffman will have an arraignment Thursday in Mount Vernon

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/state&id=7881454

Wondergirl
01-05-2011, 08:17 PM
Hoffman arraignment set for 10 a.m. tomorrow

MOUNT VERNON — Arraignment for Matthew J. Hoffman has been scheduled for Thursday at 10 a.m. in the Knox County Common Pleas Court.

Knox County Prosecutor John Thatcher will hold a press conference immediately following the arraignment to address the reasoning behind the absence of the death penalty specification in the indictments

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/blog/2011/01/05/hoffman-arraignment-set-for-10-a-m-tomorrow/

Wondergirl
01-05-2011, 08:21 PM
audio

Audio from Sheriff Barber’s press conference (http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/18/barber-11-18-10.swf) (26:12) November 18, 2010
Audio from Sheriff Barber’s press conference (http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/17/barber-11-17-10.swf) (9:09) November 17, 2010
Audio from Sheriff Barber’s press conference (http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/16/barber-11-16-10.swf) (13:48) November 16, 2010
Audio from Sheriff Barber’s press conference (http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/15/barber-11-15-10.swf) (26:47) November 15, 2010
Audio from Sheriff Barber’s press conference (http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/10/11/13/barber-11-13-10.swf) (12:56) November 13, 2010

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/family-abduction-ends-in-tragedy/

Java
01-06-2011, 08:45 AM
With out the DP, I sincerely hope he is thrown in GP, and the inmates just love him!
It would take forever for the DP to come to fruition, this way he will live a daily punishment.
For years to come. With out the solace of being held in a special DP block.

nursebeeme
01-06-2011, 09:03 AM
Hoffman arraignment set for 10 a.m. tomorrow

MOUNT VERNON — Arraignment for Matthew J. Hoffman has been scheduled for Thursday at 10 a.m. in the Knox County Common Pleas Court.

Knox County Prosecutor John Thatcher will hold a press conference immediately following the arraignment to address the reasoning behind the absence of the death penalty specification in the indictments

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/blog/2011/01/05/hoffman-arraignment-set-for-10-a-m-tomorrow/

bumping this up

Java
01-06-2011, 09:03 AM
On the Skelton Boys thread, Java posted this link to Cell Phone pinging:
http://blog.a1peoplesearch.com/2007/11/cell-phone-ping-is-it-legal.html

In this article, it indicates that cell phones can be pinged by LE, even when the phone is turned off. Anyone know if this is really true? Maybe this helps explain how they knew SM was in MH's home? If she had her phone but it was off, or the battery was dead?

Just to make this a little clearer -
I have ask my service provider (large well known service provider) and a friend in LE. the phone can be pinged to the nearest tower even if it is off. If the battery is removed it cannot be pinged at all. If the phone is ON, and is GPS enabled, it can be pinged to it's immediate location.

It is actually a part of the 911 system now a days. Since cell phone have almost made land lines obsolete.

Java
01-06-2011, 10:04 AM
http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/cellping.asp

Interesting article on cell phone pinging, that explains a little more about it.
But LE can get ping info from the service provider even if the phone is off.
Incoming or outgoing either one. And it may or may not provide them with the info the need.
Many advancements have been made in pinging ability.

octobermoon
01-06-2011, 11:41 AM
MOUNT VERNON, Ohio — Matthew Hoffman, the man accused of killing three people in Knox County, pleaded guilty to charges on Thursday.

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2011/01/06/story-mount-vernon-matthew-hoffman-court-hearing.html

fran
01-06-2011, 11:43 AM
http://www.startribune.com/nation/113007594.html

Man suspected in deaths of 3 found stuffed in tree in central Ohio pleads guilty to 10 counts

MOUNT VERNON, Ohio - An Ohio man has pleaded guilty to aggravated murder and other charges in the deaths of three people whose dismembered bodies were found in a hollow tree.

Thirty-year-old Matthew Hoffman was in court to enter the plea Thursday to aggravated murder, burglary, kidnapping and rape.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,more at link>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ronso
01-06-2011, 11:50 AM
Is anyone going to be streaming the Prosecutor's press conference?

Java
01-06-2011, 12:14 PM
"This has changed my whole life and my family's life, too," the girl said in a statement read in court by Knox County prosecutor John Thatcher after Hoffman pleaded guilty. The Associated Press generally does not identify victims when sexual crimes are alleged.
In the statement, the teen shared memories of the victims and said she's no longer scared of Hoffman.
"This is so sickening, Matthew, to know you even had the guts to do this to a family," she said in the statement.
Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jSLMi1KSg3UEVdBrwnS81Cvi0DrQ?docId=1f1591b3c 6b247fcb4e7e091b4dcc2d5
------------------------
What a brave little girl, I am so sad for her.

joe jones
01-06-2011, 12:24 PM
at last we see a quick res9olution of a case, no waiting years for a trial with lawyers costs mounting up

he committed atrocious acts, he confessed, he pled G, he was sentenced, if only more cases were adjudicated as quickly,
he will never be released to murder or rape ever again, the families of the victims have seen justice done and can now greive and heal as best they can, the remarkable teenage victim can at least know that she is safe from him, and can be allowed to continue on with her life, and receive any help she feels she needs in privacy, she sounds as if she is a tough cookie and although forever will live with these crimes she may go on to lead her life not allowing him to effect how she lives it, not giving him any further power over her

I wish her and her family well

miimaa
01-06-2011, 12:28 PM
Thank goodness he pled guilty. The family doesn't have to go through a trial and hear the horrors of what happened.

Ronso
01-06-2011, 12:30 PM
He was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. Good riddance.

Java
01-06-2011, 12:51 PM
He was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. Good riddance.

I believe he was just arraigned, to enter his plea, which thankfully was "guilty", sparing SM any further trauma.
The Judge could give him 3 life sentences back to back for 3 murders at his sentencing. Plus all the extras. 200 + years.
Or life with no parole, I'm sure he will get one or the other. Probably no possibility of parole. He won't get, in this lifetime, regardless of his sentence, what he truly deserves. But he'll get it in the end.

Ronso
01-06-2011, 12:57 PM
Java,

He was just sentenced according to ABC6. Life without parole.

Java
01-06-2011, 01:03 PM
Java,

He was just sentenced according to ABC6. Life without parole.

I sure does say "sentenced"! You are correct!

Awesome to be so speedy quick!
And glad to read as well that the victims were able to make impact statements too.

I hope they will stream the press conference.

Java
01-06-2011, 01:07 PM
Prosecutors did not pursue the death sentence because it was taken off the table in a plea deal: The victims' families agreed to take the death penalty off the table so that Hoffman would reveal the location of the bodies and the victims' remains could be recovered, NBC4 learned in court.
------------------------
http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/jan/06/20/hearing-set-ohio-man-charged-triple-slaying-ar-352285/



He received nine years each for his guilty pleas to burglary, kidnapping and rape, four years for tampering with evidence and 11 months for abuse of a corpse. The sentences will run concurrent with the life sentences for murder.
"The family deserves to know this a random burglary that went terribly, terribly wrong," Bruce Malek, Hoffman's public defender, said following sentencing. Hoffman did not specifically target those he killed, Malek said.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman-arraignment.html?sid=101
----------------
I still don't think I am buying that last paragraph about the burglary.
Because of this statement -
"The girl said in a statement, read in court by Knox County Prosecutor John Thatcher, she and Kody arrived at the home together that day and found a pool of blood."
Why would he of waited around for the kids to come home if it were only to have been a burglary?

Rhyme & Reason
01-06-2011, 01:34 PM
Prosecutors did not pursue the death sentence because it was taken off the table in a plea deal: The victims' families agreed to take the death penalty off the table so that Hoffman would reveal the location of the bodies and the victims' remains could be recovered, NBC4 learned in court.
------------------------
http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/jan/06/20/hearing-set-ohio-man-charged-triple-slaying-ar-352285/



He received nine years each for his guilty pleas to burglary, kidnapping and rape, four years for tampering with evidence and 11 months for abuse of a corpse. The sentences will run concurrent with the life sentences for murder.
"The family deserves to know this a random burglary that went terribly, terribly wrong," Bruce Malek, Hoffman's public defender, said following sentencing. Hoffman did not specifically target those he killed, Malek said.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman-arraignment.html?sid=101
----------------
I still don't think I am buying that last paragraph about the burglary.

Above BBM

I don't buy it either. It's just too much of a leap from burglary to kidnap, rape, murder, dismemberment, etc..

Rhyme & Reason
01-06-2011, 01:35 PM
Another snip from link

http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/jan/06/20/hearing-set-ohio-man-charged-triple-slaying-ar-352285/

"The girl said in a statement, read in court by Knox County Prosecutor John Thatcher, she and Kody arrived at the home together that day and found a pool of blood."

Ronso
01-06-2011, 01:48 PM
He may have been dismembering the bodies when the children arrived home... Not that I buy the burglary gone wrong explanation.

Wondergirl
01-06-2011, 01:51 PM
So, it sounds as if MH had already murdered Tina and Stephanie (or was in the process), and waited until the children arrived home. :(


The girl said in a statement, read in court by Knox County Prosecutor John Thatcher, she and Kody arrived at the home together that day and found a pool of blood.

http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/jan/06/20/hearing-set-ohio-man-charged-triple-slaying-ar-352285/

Java
01-06-2011, 02:12 PM
I guess the public defender has to say something? Come up with something IF they can? And as weak as this attempt was, at any kind of an explanation for this heinous animal, this was the best they could do.
I, in no way believe it was a burglary, I think he knew that TH was home, waited for the kids to leave for school, SS might of been a surprise, and he waited for the kids to come home, and he already had the location of the hollow tree in mind. Hid SS car...... Dismemberment, kidnapping, etc... It was no shotgun attempt at covering up a burglary.
Ditching the car near the college, the dog, etc.....
Sorry Mr. Public Defender - I do not believe this was a burglary!!

Ronso
01-06-2011, 02:25 PM
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman-arraignment.html?sid=101

Java
01-06-2011, 02:30 PM
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman-arraignment.html?sid=101

The break in the case that led to the discovery of the girl in Hoffman's home was a Walmart bag containing a tarp and trash bags that the killer left behind in Herrmann's home, Thatcher said after sentencing.
Using the bar code from the items at the store, investigators were able to locate the transaction involving their purchase and then match it to surveillance video of the man who bought the items. Video showed him driving away in a Toyota Yaris.
Investigators then ran a database search for all Yaris vehicles in the area, with Hoffman's name appearing among those driving the model. Since a deputy had spoken to him in the area where Herrmann's stolen pickup truck was found, he immediately became a prime suspect.
Authorities them obtained a search warrant, entered Hoffman's home, arrested him and freed the girl.

CKay
01-06-2011, 03:04 PM
"Knox County Prosecutor John Thatcher read a statement from Hoffman’s 13-year-old victim that said she could hear Hoffman talking with someone but doesn’t understand why he won’t tell authorities who helped him commit these crimes."

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/01/06/hoffman-pleads-guilty-gets-life-in-prison

Someone else was involved ????

joe jones
01-06-2011, 03:19 PM
prosecution addressed the issue of an accomplice by saying they believe he told her or led her to believe another person was involved to keep her compliant, they do not believe anybody else but he committed these heinous crimes, and I agree

Java
01-06-2011, 03:22 PM
I wonder if she could hear him talking, AND hear someone else talking back? Or just hear HIM talking?
If it was only him -
He could of been talking to himself, his alter psyco ego, a victim?????

If she could hear someone talking WITH him..............................
OMG!!!
-------------
I hope the prosecution explanation is correct Joe Jones.

joe jones
01-06-2011, 03:28 PM
I think they would have looked carefully for an accomplice considering the gravity of the crimes, there appears to be no evidence of an accomplice, and he has nothing to lose by naming him/her, he has taken full responsibilty for his actions but not his motivations imo

if it was a burglary gone bad why wait for the children to come home and then kill only one of them taking the female victim away to rape her, I think he was a sexual predator

Ronso
01-06-2011, 03:35 PM
I don't believe this was a spur of the moment crime, either. No one dismembers bodies and hides them in a tree in a remote area on the spur of the moment. He had this crime planned. The "what ifs" etc etc. I have a feeling there's more to the story but I don't know if we'll ever hear it. I'm glad he'll rot in prison, and I hope we'll have a few felons to thank when justice is REALLY served in this case.

fran
01-06-2011, 03:40 PM
Wow! That was fast. Already sentenced!

Thank goodness the family's ordeal in public is over. Hopefully time will bring them some sort of peace. At the least, acceptance and a way to cope.

fran

CKay
01-06-2011, 03:58 PM
Yep, it is amazing that he has already been sentenced for a crime that happened on November 10, 2010. That is 2 months ago.

Kudus to LE, especially Sheriff Barber and his team, and to the KC Prosecutor for putting together a solid "deal" (one that included location AND a guilty plea stipulation). Glad this county will not have to endure a lengthy media circus of a trial, and especially the lone survivor is spared reliving her ordeal.

May all survivors find peace somehow. Time to get him out of Knox County ... !!!!

reen
01-06-2011, 05:09 PM
I don't believe this was a spur of the moment crime, either. No one dismembers bodies and hides them in a tree in a remote area on the spur of the moment. He had this crime planned. The "what ifs" etc etc. I have a feeling there's more to the story but I don't know if we'll ever hear it. I'm glad he'll rot in prison, and I hope we'll have a few felons to thank when justice is REALLY served in this case.

No kidding! He had to have scouted out that tree too (hollow trees aren't *that* common).

I am really impressed with the police work, prosecutors, everyone who figured this out, found and convicted him so efficiently AND saved the poor girl. May she stand strong and overcome this heartbreaking devastation.

Leila
01-06-2011, 06:05 PM
I guess the public defender has to say something? Come up with something IF they can? And as weak as this attempt was, at any kind of an explanation for this heinous animal, this was the best they could do.
I, in no way believe it was a burglary, I think he knew that TH was home, waited for the kids to leave for school, SS might of been a surprise, and he waited for the kids to come home, and he already had the location of the hollow tree in mind. Hid SS car...... Dismemberment, kidnapping, etc... It was no shotgun attempt at covering up a burglary.
Ditching the car near the college, the dog, etc.....
Sorry Mr. Public Defender - I do not believe this was a burglary!!

ITA! This was one of the most horrific murders in recent times. A very sad case that has forever changed so many lives. Certainly SM's life will never be the same. But her statement that she's not afraid of MH shows a inner strength that indicates she's trying to overcome all that's happened. I hope for the best for her.

I don't believe for a minute that this was a burglary gone wrong. There was far too much planning ahead. Far too many details that came together to suggest that there was a long-range plan involved.

The two children coming home together that day and finding a pool of blood, jogged my memory. It was stated by LE that SM saw her mother the last time that day, but that the last time she saw Stephanie Sprang was the day before. This indicates that by the time the children got home, Stephanie had already been murdered and her body elsewhere, out of sight.

It's haunting to remember a post on one of the local media sites from someone who seemed to have inside information. In one of those posts the poster stated that SM was kept somewhere in the house but could hear a saw and the bathtub being drained and filled. What a horrible and frightening experience for anyone to endure.

I'm glad that MH pled guilty and got life without the possibility of parole. It's a real blessing that SM won't have to re-live the horrific details of what happened on a witness stand. I hope that MH is put into general population.

Leila
01-06-2011, 06:10 PM
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman-arraignment.html?sid=101

The break in the case that led to the discovery of the girl in Hoffman's home was a Walmart bag containing a tarp and trash bags that the killer left behind in Herrmann's home, Thatcher said after sentencing.
Using the bar code from the items at the store, investigators were able to locate the transaction involving their purchase and then match it to surveillance video of the man who bought the items. Video showed him driving away in a Toyota Yaris.
Investigators then ran a database search for all Yaris vehicles in the area, with Hoffman's name appearing among those driving the model. Since a deputy had spoken to him in the area where Herrmann's stolen pickup truck was found, he immediately became a prime suspect.
Authorities them obtained a search warrant, entered Hoffman's home, arrested him and freed the girl.

I'm still very curious about how LE with certainty that SM was alive and being held captive in MH's home.

joe jones
01-06-2011, 06:16 PM
they did not know she was alive, as you highlighted in your post it was good detective work that traced the items he left at the crime scene, then they used CTV to ID the vehicle of the person who purchased those items, then they checked who owned the vehicles, he was a registered ownder of said vehicle, he had previous contact with LE during investigation therefore he was flagged as a priority/suspect, they then obtained SW for his home and were probably suprised to find the victim alive, it was excellent detective work that ensured at least there was one samll positive to come out of all the horror

georgiajean
01-07-2011, 12:55 AM
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman-arraignment.html?sid=101

SM's 2-page victim's statement is here: http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman.pdf

Absolutely wrenching to read.

AmandaReckonwith
01-07-2011, 01:09 AM
Case archive album, Herrmann-Maynard-Sprang:

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Herrmann-Maynard-Sprang%20Murders%20%20-OH-/

Leila
01-07-2011, 01:31 AM
SM's 2-page victim's statement is here: http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman.pdf

Absolutely wrenching to read.

I couldn't get the pdf file to load, and ran a diagnostic. My computer says the file is damaged and cannot be repaired.

Can you give a synopsis of the victim statement of SM?

Leila
01-07-2011, 01:53 AM
Case archive album, Herrmann-Maynard-Sprang:

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Herrmann-Maynard-Sprang%20Murders%20%20-OH-/

Thanks You! The victim's impact statement - pdf file was not opening at the Dispatch site, but I found it on your site and am glad I was able to read it. It is indeed heart wrenching.....................

Java
01-07-2011, 05:20 AM
SM's 2-page victim's statement is here: http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman.pdf

Absolutely wrenching to read.

File opened fine on my end.
Poor child, I simply cannot imagine what she has been through. It gives me some solace to know she is being strong & courageous. But how could you ever expect that something like this could ever be put entirely behind you? I so admire her, she is such a survivor, and a very brave little girl. My heart just aches for her.

Java
01-07-2011, 08:10 AM
"No DP because of the families wishes"

I sorta wish they would not report it like that. The family probably wishes they could skin him alive and hang him on the Courthouse lawn!
To get their loved one's back, they agreed to no DP. This was his Public Defenders job. Likely they would of had no other choice for a recovery.
Fortunately for them a guilty plea with no trial, was thrown in as well. Sparing them any further anguish.
I hope the family knows that MH will suffer in prison. Likely more so than on Death Row.
Such a psychotic coward he is. Has the ability to devastate a lovely family in the manor that he did, yet squirms at the thought of himself being killed. And bargained to spare his own life. If there was even an ounce of self respect inside this atrocious human, he could of had the guts to have said "Take me out as well". Did he? NO - he's a frightened little chicken at the thought of his own death, yet doesn't even give it a second thought to kill others.
If the family is o.k. with the punishment, so am I. However I hope his cell mates will bring him the justice he deserves on a daily basis. Child killers & rapists are not at the top of the food chain in prison.

And I admire Ohio for giving this case blazing speed through our judicial system. Thank you!

Java
01-07-2011, 10:28 AM
Hoffman admits killings; grief, rage fill courtroom

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/07/hoffman-admits-killings-grief-rage-fill-courtroom.html?sid=101

georgiajean
01-07-2011, 01:16 PM
I believe the truth is in SM's words. There is so much in there, that answered most of the questions I had. As far as her family is concerned, no, this was not a random robbery gone wrong.

MH is a very sick monster. I hope LE is continuing to look for additional, past victims to tie to MH. Because you don't go from burning an apartment complex to killing 3 and kidnapping/violating another, just like that. At least that's how I understand it. Maybe some criminals do.

georgiajean
01-07-2011, 01:25 PM
Hoffman admits killings; grief, rage fill courtroom

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/01/07/hoffman-admits-killings-grief-rage-fill-courtroom.html?sid=101

Thank you for posting this.
More questions answered here. And quotes from other victims. Reading SM's father's words...his honesty...words can't express.

reen
01-07-2011, 03:52 PM
Thank you for posting this.
More questions answered here. And quotes from other victims. Reading SM's father's words...his honesty...words can't express.

That really got to me too. A photo of him in the courtroom so graphically depicts the searing RAGE he feels at this murderous lowlife. I swear there are actual flames shooting out of his eyeballs, and with good reason. He's one big burly guy too! The pipsqueak Hoffman should probably be glad he's relatively safe on the INside of jail forever!

fran
01-07-2011, 04:23 PM
This is one of the more horrifying crimes I've ever seen on the pages of WS. I shouldn't say that, because just when you think you've seen it all, another pops up. :(

I seriously doubt there was a dry eye in that courtroom after the victim's impact statements were given.

G*d bless the victims and their families and all who loved them. I wish them well, although I don't know how you can recover from something so awful as this. Time, time, time.....and love. Their wounds may never heal, but they will be softened to enable them to once again lead a normal life.

Sometimes, life just isn't fair.

fran
:rose:

A_News_Junkie
01-07-2011, 05:30 PM
This is one of the more horrifying crimes I've ever seen on the pages of WS. I shouldn't say that, because just when you think you've seen it all, another pops up. :(

I seriously doubt there was a dry eye in that courtroom after the victim's impact statements were given.

G*d bless the victims and their families and all who loved them. I wish them well, although I don't know how you can recover from something so awful as this. Time, time, time.....and love. Their wounds may never heal, but they will be softened to enable them to once again lead a normal life.

Sometimes, life just isn't fair.

fran
:rose:


Fran - I so agree. Of all the cases I have followed something about this one horrified me on a level I didn't know existed.
I can't get the precious survivor's statement to open - and would very much like to see it as it sounds from the article she is taking her power and her life back from this piece of $hit. I applaud the adults and counselors in her life whom must be getting her the best of care, coupled with the seeds of character her mother planted and the joy her brother nurtured -- I just get a feeling this is gonna be one fine young lady and she will (if not already) be a victor not a victim.

georgiajean
01-07-2011, 05:39 PM
SM's 2-page victim's statement is here: http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/local_news/stories/2011/01/06/hoffman.pdf

Absolutely wrenching to read.

For anyone who can't open the file, try Right-clicking on the link, and select "open in new window".
It comes right up for me, that way. But if I just click on it, it won't open. If that doesn't work, let me know.

A_News_Junkie
01-07-2011, 07:27 PM
For anyone who can't open the file, try Right-clicking on the link, and select "open in new window".
It comes right up for me, that way. But if I just click on it, it won't open. If that doesn't work, let me know.

:banghead: Still not working for me. I even copied and opened a new window and still nothing.

Cazzie
01-07-2011, 08:53 PM
:banghead: Still not working for me. I even copied and opened a new window and still nothing.
It's a pdf file, which means you have to have Adobe Reader software (it's free). Did it come up with an icon in the middle of the screen? If so, click on it.

I'm not a fan of Adobe pdf files.

If it wasn't against the rules here, I would copy/paste it for you.

That said, I still need to read it. I followed this case from Day One and really had to back away for a while.

A_News_Junkie
01-07-2011, 10:36 PM
It's a pdf file, which means you have to have Adobe Reader software (it's free). Did it come up with an icon in the middle of the screen? If so, click on it.

I'm not a fan of Adobe pdf files.

If it wasn't against the rules here, I would copy/paste it for you.

That said, I still need to read it. I followed this case from Day One and really had to back away for a while.


I have Adobe -- my problem is I left my brain somewhere (maybe the parking lot! LOL) It was my adblock plus blocking it. :banghead: <--- I should know better.

I followed from first day too. This is about 100 miles from me -- and the horror of it all, really got to me too.

georgiajean
01-08-2011, 01:43 PM
Going back over MH's history, I read about the arson in Colorado and was struck by the phrase, repeated again and again by the media: He set fire to the apartments "To Cover Up a Burglary".
With MH in prison for the rest of his life, I'm not sure what value there is in discussing this. Just wanted to throw it out there.
He was going to set fire to this house, but changed his mind. His defense attorney claims this was a burglary that went terribly wrong, which I don't buy. The progression from burglary to murder is a huge one, and difficult to swallow that there were not a lot of intermediate crimes that transitioned this monster from burglary to murder.
But the progression from burning down an apartment complex to cover a burglary (and potentially killing 16 people, without thought), to killing three people to cover a burglary makes more sense, logically.
Is it possible his mind was so twisted that he was more concerned about being caught for burglary, than he was about killing people?

SM's witness statement makes it very clear that she and her family felt they were being stalked, and that this was not a mere burglary. Now it could be that MH was staking out their house and the houses around it, for burglary. But I'm not sure I buy that.

newshound6
01-08-2011, 02:02 PM
I remember early on, reading all kinds of accounts of MH being out in the woods all day-even kinda camping out and living in the woods around his town before he got the house.I also thought about the Colo. arson(did you listen to the local DA from out there talking about how extreme the arson was,as a cover up for a burglary?)Also,remember some friend or family member of the victim stating that they felt their home had been ransacked?Maybe MH was into creeping around people's homes and surprised the victims by being there?The whole thing doesn't make any sense(even in crazy killer,criminal world)I know MH forced sex on the 13yr. old victim, but it doesn't seem like the whole crime was a sexually motivated one.I really think he is profoundly mentally ill.

georgiajean
01-08-2011, 02:13 PM
Took me a while, but I tracked down the local community forum, KnoxPages.com, where they are discussing the outcomes of the past couple days.
http://www.knoxpages.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12549&whichpage=1

OneLove
01-08-2011, 02:14 PM
Just read the victims' statements and notice that Kody had that very day said he didn't want to go home because he was afraid he was going to be killed.

Powerful intuition?

Thank you, Kody, for leaving this legacy behind. I will forever trust my 'powerful intuitions' for the remainder of my life, even when others might scoff. They have already protected me many times, but you have put a ribbon and a bow on this gift.

georgiajean
01-08-2011, 02:52 PM
Local (to Knox county) news article with photos from court proceedings
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/01/06/hoffman-pleads-guilty-gets-life-in-prison

On the right side is a area with links to audio, video, and photos. I have linked some of them here.

Video from within court, of guilty pleas. Prosecutor reads half of SM's statement before video ends.
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/01/06/hoffmanguilty.swf

Audio of press conference. 29 min.
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/01/06/thatcher-01-06-11.swf

There are 10 photos from court that day, in the side bar.

I can't listen to the presser yet, but the comments on the Knoxpages.com (linked in my last post, above) indicates it is worth listening to.

georgiajean
01-08-2011, 02:58 PM
News article from Mt.Vernon news, about the presser.
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/01/07/some-answers-unveiled

If MH was ever to file an appeal, the plea deal is erased, and the clock goes back to Nov. 17th, and he would face the death penalty.

News article from Mt.Vernon news, with much more information/quotes from the many, many family members who spoke after MH's guilty pleas.
http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/01/07/family-speaks-out-at-hoffman-sentencing

newshound6
01-09-2011, 02:34 AM
Took me a while, but I tracked down the local community forum, KnoxPages.com, where they are discussing the outcomes of the past couple days.
http://www.knoxpages.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12549&whichpage=1

Read thru these- there are interesting references to the Columbus paper reporting that LE found stolen items from a bunch of homes at MH's house-that adds another dimension to this.He really was burglarizing homes.

Java
01-09-2011, 08:57 AM
He could of been burglarizing homes. I had said early on when they were looking for the victims, that he's probably been in and out of several homes in the area, and watched many people.
And I would of bought the burglar thing if only TH and maybe SS were killed. But to have waited for the children, and then only kidnapped one, instead of killing them all, leans me to think he had other motives for this than just burglary. It's to big of a leap from burglary to dismembering 3 bodies, hauling them 20 miles, and disposing of them in a hollow tree.
The other items found in his home (if it is true) may of just been the stepping stones we have all been discussing, since his CO. arson. Part of his escalation to this current crime.
I still don't think a burglary was all there was to the Herriman home.
But MH being a burglar? I don't doubt it for a second.
He's probably been up to no good for quite a while, likely since his release. We may never know what all he has done.

I want to mention too, in the victim statements in court - I've got to hand it to them all!

What an awesome group of people. When SS's sister told MH " You hold your head up and look at me!" (and it is said he didn't) Had it not been such a terribly sad event, the whole court room should of stood up in applause. I'm so proud of these families! The courage they have shown through all of this is just amazing. I wish I could give each one of them a hug, and tell them thank you for being such incredible examples in the face of an adversity, most of us will never know. I just don't know how they've done it. God bless them all.

CKay
01-12-2011, 04:29 PM
Only one other burglary tied to Hoffman

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/01/12/only-one-other-burglary-linked-to-hoffman

On Oct. 13, 2010, Jxxx Nxxx returned home to find his garage had been burglarized.

“I don’t remember everything that was taken,” Nxxx told the News. “My golf clubs were taken. And some of my deer hunting stuff — my bow and my deer stand were taken. There were some personal items taken from the house, some silver and sports memorabilia.”

<snip>

“Can we say he was involved in any other burglaries?” said Capt. David Shaffer of the sheriff’s office. “No. Can we say he wasn’t involved in any other burglaries? No. We don’t have any evidence. There were no other (stolen) items found in Hoffman’s residence."


Article goes on to describe why other burglaries could possibly be linked.

I tried to pin down where the one known burglary occurred, but could not find a personal residence listed under JN's name (3 properties were listed: 1 being his parents' farm, 1 being a restaurant, 1 another commercial property). JN appears to be a realtor. Not trying to sleuth him... just find out where the burglary took place (note my location). But the news article goes on to talk about the "Beam's Lake area", which they say is south of town. That is more within Hoffman's "home turf", rather than Apple Valley.

So the short of it is, one more can be proven ... probably more that couldn't be.

CKay
01-12-2011, 04:54 PM
Have located the general area, and added it to my map:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=207038536394086749295.0004959ac27171cf59331&ll=40.370874,-82.463379&spn=0.189374,0.444603&z=12

More affluent type homes in that area, or so it appears.

Java
01-12-2011, 06:58 PM
Yikes!

I can honestly say - I'm not so sure I'd want that stuff back after MH had it in his possession!
It would give me the creeps..............

Ronso
01-13-2011, 04:53 AM
Beams Lake area is a very nice area. I had a friend that lived back in there.

And not a hard area to get to on foot from his residence.

I actually knew about this burglary weeks ago due to an inside source... and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more. I'm just glad the creep is behind bars for good.

JenB
01-16-2011, 12:47 AM
I trust the young survivor who believes Hoffman did not act alone, and as such, I'm still sleuthing.

I found a few interesting things.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/16/cnr.07.html
In the above transcript, there is an interview with Ron Fowler, Hoffman's neighbor.


So, you were not aware of his arson conviction from back in Colorado? He never --
FOWLER: No. He told us --
BALDWIN: -- came out and talked about that?
FOWLER: -- it was a robbery gone bad, is what he told us.
BALDWIN: A robbery -- a robbery gone bad.
FOWLER: Yes.

Very similar to his public defender's statement on his behalf.


Malek said Hoffman did not single out one person or family and attributed the violence to "a random burglary that went terribly, terribly wrong."
Source: http://www.portclintonnewsherald.com/article/20110106/UPDATES01/110106007/Hoffman-Slayings-resulted-from-burglary-gone-wrong

Also found this piece where a serial killer expert, in talking about Hoffman, says,

Was this a stalking incident? How did he connect with this family? How did he pick his next victim, because the victims are picked. It's not just a random event.
Source: http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=159071

Whether he's a serial killer or not, I agree that it was not a random event.

Also, Kody's father weighs in:
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=120520578016202&id=1838071705

{mod snip}


[this is a public Facebook post, as I am not "friends" with Mr. Maynard -- he has posted this for everyone to see]

CKay
01-16-2011, 02:11 AM
You know, I know who he is referring to. I don't know for sure, it just seems so obvious to me, having followed the Topix posts early on. LM posted on Day 1 (used his real name), rather than coming one hour to help in the search for his kids. As time went on, the names became disguised. Then GB and/or his family members showed up. There were accusations flung on both sides. The first televised interview LM did, he was throwing out accusations towards GB, even before he knew who did this. That didn't settle well with me (hinky meter, if you will). So while everyone was mostly pointing to GB as the most likely suspect, I looked in the direction of the man with the biggest mouth. I don't think he will let go of this. I think he just wants to be right.

I live very close to where this happened. The explanation that no one else was involved makes sense to me, especially knowing that he used the bike trail and a bike. Yes, it doesn't seem that burglary was on his mind that day. With LM I can agree. But playing devils advocate, what if the plan was to hide the things in the woods (if you know the terrain, very easy to do) and come and get them later. Or MH's motive wasn't burglary. He's not admitting any other motive. I've always wondered if one of the women ticked him off somehow (rejection), but we'll never ever know for sure. And it doesn't matter, because he is LOCKED UP.

I'm just putting out another viewpoint about "Mr. Maynard". And if Dad can't get off his bandwagon, I don't think SM will either. Throwing accusations towards GB is uncalled for. They couldn't afford their mortgage! How could he hire someone to do that?
MOO

p.s. They found belongings to another burglary victim in his home, and he's suspected in others (posted about it above). Burglary was his "thing", even in Colorado. Was this a "random" burglary? I doubt it. Not in the sense that he was just driving around and thought "oh, let me try there". He planned it, thus not "random". If you could see how that house sit in the neighborhood, you could see how he could have picked it out as a "easy" mark though. Again, MOO.

Java
01-20-2011, 08:30 AM
My personal opinion only -
I don't think MH was hired by anyone. He doesn't seem to be that kind of killer.
It is possible that more may come out about MH sometime in the future, he would seem to be quite a study on psychosis. Someone in the learning field may get to question him at sometime, as has been done with many killers in the past. He has all the ear marks of a psychopath living in his own mind.
I just don't think he has a coherent enough connection with the real world to have plotted or been involved in a murder for hire. And if it had been such, I would have expected all of them to have been murdered. And he possibly would of gone through with the arson of the home as well.

I just will never believe it was a burglary gone wrong.
I think it was more of an evolving psychotic fantasy in his own mind, and he had been watching the home for a while. And it built up to this. It could have started with a rejection issue like you said Ckay. Or an obsession with SM. Or both!
It was not random. Nor just a burglary.
JMHO

Rhyme & Reason
01-21-2011, 12:10 AM
My personal opinion only -
I don't think MH was hired by anyone. He doesn't seem to be that kind of killer.
It is possible that more may come out about MH sometime in the future, he would seem to be quite a study on psychosis. Someone in the learning field may get to question him at sometime, as has been done with many killers in the past. He has all the ear marks of a psychopath living in his own mind.
I just don't think he has a coherent enough connection with the real world to have plotted or been involved in a murder for hire. And if it had been such, I would have expected all of them to have been murdered. And he possibly would of gone through with the arson of the home as well.

I just will never believe it was a burglary gone wrong.
I think it was more of an evolving psychotic fantasy in his own mind, and he had been watching the home for a while. And it built up to this. It could have started with a rejection issue like you said Ckay. Or an obsession with SM. Or both!
It was not random. Nor just a burglary.
JMHO

Great post!! ITA!!

Java
01-21-2011, 08:02 AM
Thank you Rhyme
But as I said it is my opinion only. I am not disputing anything the family said. As I do not know any of them, and am 1800 + miles away from the crime.
They know more than I. But MH pretty much falls into a "classic" category. Based on that, I would assume, he acted alone, and acted on his own fantasies. Much the same as Dahmer or any of the other killers that have this type of mental instability. They live in their own world.
And while they are all different, they have basic things in common. MH shows all of this with big waving red flags. It is a shame these things cannot be identified until after the fact. All psychopaths aren't killers but the one's that do go that far, are usually way out on another planet, and totally unpredictable.
Again, prayers and best wishes to the families always. Terrible terrible tragedy. Simply unthinkable.

It's a shame really.
People in positions of study, have tried over and over and over again to pin point it. Both physically & mentally. And while you get the "markers" there is still no positive answer.
Some do totally loose it and some don't , and no one knows why or when. The best that can be done is to identify "potential". But until there is a crime or murder, there isn't much to do.
It isn't illegal to be nuts. Much the same with the tragedy in Tucson lately. While many people knew there was significant problems going on. The end result was a shock.
Hopefully someday there will be an answer.

SailorMoon
01-22-2011, 10:08 PM
I didn't know that he had pled guilty and been sentenced already. For that, I am very glad. Death penalty - it would have taken forever and millions of dollars. I feel almost certain that the victims would not have been found if he didn't tell them where they were. Without a doubt. Burglary gone wrong?? That I'm not so sure about. He was after something else, or someone else.

And LE did say that they knew SM was in his house. Still not sure how they knew unless they had been listening for a minute or so.

He's locked up, and hopefully there weren't others before this. I'm not sure about that either. Did he come with a chain saw?? Still more questions...

Texas Mist
02-07-2011, 06:11 PM
more disturbing details from this heartless killer.

And I don't buy his story that he was there to only commit a burglary either...his statements do seem to be self-serving.

Knox County killer: 'I did not know a single one of them'
Matthew Hoffman's confession details triple murder, kidnapping

Monday, February 7, 2011 03:26 PM
BY ALLISON MANNING AND HOLLY ZACHARIAH


MOUNT VERNON, Ohio - To save his own life, Matthew Hoffman promised to tell authorities every excruciating detail of how and why he killed three unsuspecting people in November and why he kidnapped a teenage girl.
..........
His four-page confession available for the first time today doesn't make sense of a seemingly senseless crime, but it does offer the first public peek into the mind of an out-of-work ex-con who went from burglar to mass murderer in a matter of hours.
..........
But the bulk of his confession is about the four days he spent at his own home on Columbus Road near downown Mount Vernon with the 13-year-old girl he kidnapped - how he let her play Wii video games, how they watched the Iron Man movies together, how he gave her a copy of the novel Treasure Island to pass the time.

He wrote that he cooked her hamburgers, slept with his arm around her and, in his own twisted mind, appears to believe he showed her some compassion.

much more here

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/02/07/Knox-County-murders.html

A_News_Junkie
02-07-2011, 07:06 PM
Texas Mist - thank you for alerting us to these new details.

There are just no words - disgust and I don't believe him. I just pray that the wee little survivor can find a way to take her power back and make a life where joy can once again exist. That would be the best justice for her mom, brother and friend.
Prayers.

Ronso
02-08-2011, 12:41 AM
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/02/07/hoffman-confession.html?sid=101

CKay
02-08-2011, 01:00 AM
As a local, I'm just too stunned to comment right now. Have to let this sink in and process.

But I'm glad things are being released (hopefully a bit more), so that the community can also process and start to heal. Facts are always better than speculation imo.

May the victims rest in peace, and SM overcome this tragedy.

CKay
02-08-2011, 01:05 AM
more disturbing details from this heartless killer.

And I don't buy his story that he was there to only commit a burglary either...his statements do seem to be self-serving.

Knox County killer: 'I did not know a single one of them'
Matthew Hoffman's confession details triple murder, kidnapping

Monday, February 7, 2011 03:26 PM
BY ALLISON MANNING AND HOLLY ZACHARIAH


MOUNT VERNON, Ohio - To save his own life, Matthew Hoffman promised to tell authorities every excruciating detail of how and why he killed three unsuspecting people in November and why he kidnapped a teenage girl.
..........
His four-page confession available for the first time today doesn't make sense of a seemingly senseless crime, but it does offer the first public peek into the mind of an out-of-work ex-con who went from burglar to mass murderer in a matter of hours.
..........
But the bulk of his confession is about the four days he spent at his own home on Columbus Road near downown Mount Vernon with the 13-year-old girl he kidnapped - how he let her play Wii video games, how they watched the Iron Man movies together, how he gave her a copy of the novel Treasure Island to pass the time.

He wrote that he cooked her hamburgers, slept with his arm around her and, in his own twisted mind, appears to believe he showed her some compassion.

much more here

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/02/07/Knox-County-murders.html

p.s. This article also answers the "how did they know for sure that SM was in that house on Sunday" question.

Footprints outside the Herrmann house led investigators to believe that someone, a woman or girl with a size 7.5 shoe, had left the house alive with an attacker.

Was she still?

CKay
02-08-2011, 01:10 AM
10tv was here reporting from the start. Here is their story today (with video):

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2011/02/07/story-mount-vernon-matthew-hoffman-slayings-confession.html?sid=102

Wondergirl
02-08-2011, 10:04 AM
http://www.10tv.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/10tv/local/stories/2011/02/08/image-hoffman-walmart-280.jpg

Video from Walmart surveillance cameras showed Hoffman purchasing items he used to conceal the bodies.

http://www.10tv.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/10tv/local/stories/2011/02/08/images/hoffmanwalmart02.jpg




Shortly after the slayings, Hoffman said that he drove to nearby Gambier, where he went to collect gas cans from his vehicle and use them to burn down Herrmann's house.

According to Hoffman, a sheriff's deputy almost immediately pulled up and asked for his driver's license and reason for being there. At that point, Hoffman said that he could not burn down Herrmann's house and returned to his home where he built a campfire outside his house, drank a bottle of wine and burned his shoes.


http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2011/02/07/story-mount-vernon-matthew-hoffman-slayings-confession.html?sid=102

hndinglove
02-08-2011, 12:09 PM
In the confession linked above, he said he "used garbage bags from within the house."

But don't these videos contradict this? Right?



http://www.10tv.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/10tv/local/stories/2011/02/08/image-hoffman-walmart-280.jpg

Video from Walmart surveillance cameras showed Hoffman purchasing items he used to conceal the bodies.

http://www.10tv.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/10tv/local/stories/2011/02/08/images/hoffmanwalmart02.jpg




http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2011/02/07/story-mount-vernon-matthew-hoffman-slayings-confession.html?sid=102

ohiogirl
02-08-2011, 12:18 PM
I am not buying the burglary gone bad, either. You don't watch a house overnight just to burglarize it unless you know there is something there that you want. I think what he wanted was the girl. He is a liar and I can't understand why the prosecutor believes him.

SailorMoon
02-08-2011, 12:43 PM
It said that they surprised him when he only had been there an hour. AN HOUR????!!! He had no car, slept in the woods, it doesn't take that long to grab stuff you're stealing and go. I'm calling BS on this as well.

But, be that as it may, he's not getting out of prison and they aren't coming back to life. Sad, sad, sad.

AmandaReckonwith
02-08-2011, 03:38 PM
Case archive album:

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Herrmann-Maynard-Sprang%20Murders%20%20-OH-/#!cpZZ1QQtppZZ12

reen
02-08-2011, 06:09 PM
In the confession linked above, he said he "used garbage bags from within the house."

But don't these videos contradict this? Right?

I've read that he began by using the trash bags in the house, but they were too small and thin so he purchased heavy-duty ones at Wal-Mart.

The confession was just chilling, and makes me feel even worse for SM....she really did think her family was alive and she'd see them again. Imagine the pain.

CKay
02-08-2011, 06:59 PM
Local newspaper's summary of document release (more details, but not all - fills in more blanks):

http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/11/02/08/hoffmans-confession-includes-details-of-murder