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WhyaDuck?
11-26-2010, 12:23 AM
Old thread was getting really long, so here's a new one - part II.

Please continue discussing whether AB was involved in the death of his daughter and/or the cover-up of the crime here.

First thread here:

AB's involvement? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

WhyaDuck?
11-26-2010, 12:25 AM
I think the old poll will be closed with the old thread, so I started a new one. Feel free to vote differently than you did in the first, if you wish. Write in options are allowed.

lauriej
11-26-2010, 12:31 AM
..thank you for the new poll.

..i voted "cover up and murder".
..there would be no way on this planet that i , personally, would go along with the 'cover-up' of my child's murder, unless i had participated IN the murder.

..my feelings for AB aside, i can't see that he would either.
..he's in it from start to finish.

Mountain_Kat
11-26-2010, 01:31 AM
I voted " involved in the cover-up but not in the death ", only because the facts I've been given, at this point, do not support any theory that AB was also involved in Zahra's death, imo. Unless we're going to count negligence as a contributing factor to her death, in which case, he's guilty as sin.

newone
11-26-2010, 01:56 AM
I don't know what to think on this altogether. I would like to think that AB was not capable of such a heinous crime and that EB was the ''main'' puppeteer in this case and that a yet unknown third party assisted her in the dispatch of dear ZB.

thisjusthurtsmyheart
11-26-2010, 03:55 AM
Hello All,

I have a theory that I thought of tonight at work but my computer shut down on me and I lost all of the stuff that I had written...ugh!:furious::banghead:

I was reading the old thread and tlcox made the remark that AB had displaced his emotions completely...well tl I believe your right. I believe that it all started when Z got cancer. I think that AB detached from her because he actually thought that she was going to die in the second round...i.e..secondary cancer. I think that he really detached becuz he thought it would be easier to bury her without so much feeling involved. People do this all the time to help the pain of losing a loved one. I can understand I have done it myself with a man that I felt like it was my father. It eased the pain a little. I knew and I was ready. The problem arises when the person that you detach from actually lives.

I think this is where things get complicated. AB detached from Z but she lived and I think that he never gained that love for her again. He just went through the motions becuz his mother was making him, she wanted Z to be around still. So he continued to care for her, he was constantly under the watchful eye of his "mum". So at some point, he decided that it was time to fill the void that was left by him "losing" Z. Even though he never lost her, in his mind he lost her to last bout with cancer. And the way he distanced himself from her and just acted so uncaring towards her.

The next step I believe has to do with EB he met her and he really latched on to her in the online reality. He may have even fell in love with her online. I think that after that fact she flew over to OZ and that was it. He thought that he found the one that would stay when he in his mind had already lost so much. They got married in OZ and everything seemed so good the reality was not what was really there. When he married EB he thought that she could take the place of his mom. EB could take care of Z and he and EB could leave because there was another woman to care for Z. Now remember he still cared for her because he had too. He probably thought that there would be another bout with cancer that would sooner or later take her away. So why get attached again.

The displacement of love I think went to EB and he was so afraid of losing her so he went along with all of the abuse that EB dished out. He may have even went along with hurting her himself to keep her around, he did not want to be alone especially in this country. At some point Z died I really do not know how and part of me really does not want to know and the other half of me really does. Catch 22 I GUESS! But once Z was gone he went into cover up and conceal mode. He didnt want to lose EB so they went about covering up the death. They did what I believe AB thought to do in order to not lose the rest of his life.

In retrospect, I have came to the conclusion that AB let go of his daughter along time ago and he never could fathom losing her again. I think that he loved EB and he would have done anything to keep her and not lose the one thing that he loved again. And Z was just a burden that was not all that important anymore, given the lack of medical care and love that the little angel received in her short time here with us.

Hope this makes sense...:waitasec:

This is my opinion! Not that it matters!:crazy:

Synaptic Cliff
11-26-2010, 09:48 AM
TJHMH, your post makes a lot of sense to me. This "detaching" is called anticipatory grieving, and it is normal for family members of cancer patients (and people with other terminal diagnoses as well.) The patient often does this as well (fwiw) backing away from family attachments and becoming more isolated. It's a bit more complicated with children (obviously!) But, children with terminal illness are an amazing, inspiring, strong-beyond-explanation, and wise-beyond-their-years group of people. It makes this case all the more unthinkable, as Z was obviously such a remarkable young lady.

I voted that AB was involved in both the cover up and the murder. As her father, there is just no way I can excuse him of leaving her in the care of an evil killer. So, whether he used his own hands to kill her, or he was simply criminally negligent, he shoulders a good share of the blame. The courts may not see it this way, but that's what my feelings are.

essies
11-26-2010, 12:36 PM
TJHMH, your post makes a lot of sense to me. This "detaching" is called anticipatory grieving, and it is normal for family members of cancer patients (and people with other terminal diagnoses as well.) The patient often does this as well (fwiw) backing away from family attachments and becoming more isolated. It's a bit more complicated with children (obviously!) But, children with terminal illness are an amazing, inspiring, strong-beyond-explanation, and wise-beyond-their-years group of people. It makes this case all the more unthinkable, as Z was obviously such a remarkable young lady.

I voted that AB was involved in both the cover up and the murder. As her father, there is just no way I can excuse him of leaving her in the care of an evil killer. So, whether he used his own hands to kill her, or he was simply criminally negligent, he shoulders a good share of the blame. The courts may not see it this way, but that's what my feelings are.

Great first post - I completely agree!! I can't wait to see more evidence of the inner workings of life before EB as I can't see AB abruptly changing because he was so in love with his Goth Fairy!:snooty:
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u50/undertheclothesline/welcome.gif

passionflower
11-26-2010, 01:10 PM
IMO, AB mother took care of little Zahra in AU..........leaving AB have no father responsibilities.
EB convinced AB that she was a fantasitic mother (momster)
AB thought his life would b the same carefree life.
AB gets to USA and life is not what he thought it would be.
AB / EB move, deal in drugs, become like smal time thugs.
EB's way of life and AB gets a kick out of it.
AB knows that EB pulled Zahra out of school, abused Zahra.
AB KNEW ZAHRA NEEDED A NEW LEG, doctors would of told him the time frame.
AB just didn't care........period.
Zahra was in the way of their lifestyle.
EB beat Zahra, other things may of happened to Zahra.
Something happened bad to Zahra because AB & EB HAD TO DESTROY Zahra's body!
So I vote AB & EB murdered Zahra and both EB/AB dismembered her body and threw her out like garbage.
AB did the burial of the trunk of her body in the hole!
This is only my opinion!

tlcya
11-26-2010, 02:23 PM
I am completely undecided on the level of AB's involvement. I have been up down and all around. I have been convinced he is a part of the coverup. Other days I have been convinced he has been played by someone far more manipulative than he has the intellect to anticipate. Some days I wake up feeling one way and go to sleep thinking the oposite.

So as it stands right now, today, this minute. I have NO freekin clue about if AB was involved or to what degree.

Allusonz
11-26-2010, 09:07 PM
you sound the way i have been feeling so can definately relate and not sure what i think do not think at this moment

i have to though stick to my gut from the start that somehow EB manipulated AB more than alot of us think, but will refrain from voting at the moment

sweetmop
11-26-2010, 09:33 PM
Well, I voted completely undecided on AB's involvement. This case, from the start, has had me going back and forth in my feelings on AB's involvement. It's just so very very difficult for me to see and understand how a parent could possibly have any type of involvement in such a heinous and sickening act upon their own child. I guess I just keep holding out hope that we will find that AB really was so out of touch that EB pulled this whole horrible crime off without his knowledge whatsoever. That he had enough faith in EB that he entrusted his little girl to her care completely and took her at her word in anything she told him regarding what was going on with Zahra.
I was a single parent myself with 3 children for 5 years and the bond of love for one another grew even stronger during that time. We are very very close today because of those 5 years as just the 4 of us 'against the world'. I guess I expect AB to feel that same way.
I know you all will call me nuts, I suppose I am hoping and praying that AB is not involved, and never harmed sweet Zahra.

Synaptic Cliff
11-26-2010, 09:56 PM
Essies-Thanks! I was wondering if anyone would notice I was brand new.. ;) This seems like a great place for thoughtful exchange of ideas. I look forward to posting more. Thanks for the welcome!

Makara
11-26-2010, 10:37 PM
Well, I voted completely undecided on AB's involvement. This case, from the start, has had me going back and forth in my feelings on AB's involvement. It's just so very very difficult for me to see and understand how a parent could possibly have any type of involvement in such a heinous and sickening act upon their own child. I guess I just keep holding out hope that we will find that AB really was so out of touch that EB pulled this whole horrible crime off without his knowledge whatsoever. That he had enough faith in EB that he entrusted his little girl to her care completely and took her at her word in anything she told him regarding what was going on with Zahra.
I was a single parent myself with 3 children for 5 years and the bond of love for one another grew even stronger during that time. We are very very close today because of those 5 years as just the 4 of us 'against the world'. I guess I expect AB to feel that same way.
I know you all will call me nuts, I suppose I am hoping and praying that AB is not involved, and never harmed sweet Zahra.

BBM. Sweetmop you've said exactly what I've been thinking. I find it incomprehensible that a parent could dismember their own child and like tlcox said, I've also been up, down and all around with the thought of AB's involvement. IMO I think it's possible that EB could have done most of this on her own and then enlisted help from a third party to dismember and bury Zahra's remains. But who would want to get involved in this horrendous crime? Someone as dark as EB herself, her soul mate perhaps?

agathawannabe
11-26-2010, 11:00 PM
BBM. Sweetmop you've said exactly what I've been thinking. I find it incomprehensible that a parent could dismember their own child and like tlcox said, I've also been up, down and all around with the thought of AB's involvement. IMO I think it's possible that EB could have done most of this on her own and then enlisted help from a third party to dismember and bury Zahra's remains. But who would want to get involved in this horrendous crime? Someone as dark as EB herself, her soul mate perhaps?

Or someone who had secrets that EB could expose? Maybe even multiple someones? (But then again, I suppose they'd be dark as EB herself if their secrets were that bad.)

I dunno.. I've been bouncing some of my theories about 3rd & 4th parties (and potentially more) off my husband. He said "Why didn't they see it would just be easier to whack EB?! No bodies to hide. No more intimidation/manipulation/blackmail from her - ever!" :waitasec:

But, even as logical as my husband is .. :wink: .. I still think some foolish, criminal people were involved in this. The killing *may* have been (somewhat) accidental.. but the cover-up sure wasn't. I don't think they'll get away with it (their participation). And the "smart one(s)" among them will start talking TRUTHFULLY to police right away!

newone
11-27-2010, 12:36 AM
well i believe i have toppled from the fence...the obituary and memorial staged by AB indicate to me that he in fact is pompously covering his ample behind and in fact is guilty (MOO) of the coverup (EB was original quarterback but now Momsie has taken that precious role again). The snubbing by not mentioning biomom's extended family is not only arrogant but indicative of this person's desire to inflict pain.

Belinda
11-27-2010, 02:52 AM
I voted that Adam was negligent in allowing EB to abuse Zahra and was involved in the cover-up. I don't think Adam abused Zahra, but I think he knew very well EB was and did nothing to stop it. I think he helped EB cover it up to save his own rear end.

Mrs G Norris
11-27-2010, 03:48 AM
*respectably snipped

[quote=agathawannabe;5845992]Or someone who had secrets that EB could expose? Maybe even multiple someones? (But then again, I suppose they'd be dark as EB herself if their secrets were that bad.)

ITA

But, even as logical as my husband is .. :wink: .. I still think some foolish, criminal people were involved in this. The killing *may* have been (somewhat) accidental.. but the cover-up sure wasn't. I don't think they'll get away with it (their participation). And the "smart one(s)" among them will start talking TRUTHFULLY to police right away!Or at all.

little lulu
11-27-2010, 08:27 AM
thisjusthurtsmyheart
thank-you for the great post...I agree

panthera
11-27-2010, 02:01 PM
I voted " involved in the cover-up but not in the death ", only because the facts I've been given, at this point, do not support any theory that AB was also involved in Zahra's death, imo. Unless we're going to count negligence as a contributing factor to her death, in which case, he's guilty as sin.

I agree. At this point, I voted for gross negligence and cover up, although I personally believe he's guilty of her death by omission. MOO

peg4x4
11-28-2010, 09:50 AM
"Detaching" Thank you.. That seems to be what I have done from my family due to deaths,terminal illnesses,both mine and others in the family.. Now I have a "word" to go to the Dr with and maybe get help.. Or not ~ There is much to face..
Sorry,OT... But thanks..

LiveLaughLuv
11-28-2010, 10:08 AM
I am completely undecided on the level of AB's involvement. I have been up down and all around. I have been convinced he is a part of the coverup. Other days I have been convinced he has been played by someone far more manipulative than he has the intellect to anticipate. Some days I wake up feeling one way and go to sleep thinking the oposite.

So as it stands right now, today, this minute. I have NO freekin clue about if AB was involved or to what degree.

BBM....that's where I'm at..

I do feel he was negligent for Zahra's medical care. She should have had follow ups here tp make sure her cancer didn't return but I wonder if she ever saw a doctor while she lived in the US?

Her prosethic leg needed replacing, how could he watch his daughter limp around with uneven limbs? I do feel he's guilty with this but dont' know how much is all EB with her evil manipulations. I only hope the authorities are on this and will have some answers before we know it..As I believe, it was EB's idea with that ransom note. Boy did she crack fast when she admitted to writting it. So, IMO, this might fall on on EB...especially after hearing that EB conviced AB that one of her exhusbands was her brother...so who knows how gullible and naive AB truly is...two completely different worlds (lifestyles) between the US of A and Australia...JMHO

Justice for Zahra

Makara
11-28-2010, 10:10 AM
thisjusthurtsmyheart I totally agree with everything you've said below. I have been guilty of this myself to some degree. When I learned that my mother was terminal with breast cancer and had a month to live, I think I became detached, although I looked after her with all the love in my heart until she passed away. I knew though, that she was going and I couldn't do a damn thing about it and I put up that wall of protection around me (read detachment) to ease the pain.

But I'm not AB and he's not me, although he is a fellow countryman. He disgusts me to the core and I could quite happily grab him and shake the chit out of him! :furious:

peg4x4 Hugs to you.


Hello All,

I have a theory that I thought of tonight at work but my computer shut down on me and I lost all of the stuff that I had written...ugh!:furious::banghead:

I was reading the old thread and tlcox made the remark that AB had displaced his emotions completely...well tl I believe your right. I believe that it all started when Z got cancer. I think that AB detached from her because he actually thought that she was going to die in the second round...i.e..secondary cancer. I think that he really detached becuz he thought it would be easier to bury her without so much feeling involved. People do this all the time to help the pain of losing a loved one. I can understand I have done it myself with a man that I felt like it was my father. It eased the pain a little. I knew and I was ready. The problem arises when the person that you detach from actually lives.

I think this is where things get complicated. AB detached from Z but she lived and I think that he never gained that love for her again. He just went through the motions becuz his mother was making him, she wanted Z to be around still. So he continued to care for her, he was constantly under the watchful eye of his "mum". So at some point, he decided that it was time to fill the void that was left by him "losing" Z. Even though he never lost her, in his mind he lost her to last bout with cancer. And the way he distanced himself from her and just acted so uncaring towards her.

The next step I believe has to do with EB he met her and he really latched on to her in the online reality. He may have even fell in love with her online. I think that after that fact she flew over to OZ and that was it. He thought that he found the one that would stay when he in his mind had already lost so much. They got married in OZ and everything seemed so good the reality was not what was really there. When he married EB he thought that she could take the place of his mom. EB could take care of Z and he and EB could leave because there was another woman to care for Z. Now remember he still cared for her because he had too. He probably thought that there would be another bout with cancer that would sooner or later take her away. So why get attached again.

The displacement of love I think went to EB and he was so afraid of losing her so he went along with all of the abuse that EB dished out. He may have even went along with hurting her himself to keep her around, he did not want to be alone especially in this country. At some point Z died I really do not know how and part of me really does not want to know and the other half of me really does. Catch 22 I GUESS! But once Z was gone he went into cover up and conceal mode. He didnt want to lose EB so they went about covering up the death. They did what I believe AB thought to do in order to not lose the rest of his life.

In retrospect, I have came to the conclusion that AB let go of his daughter along time ago and he never could fathom losing her again. I think that he loved EB and he would have done anything to keep her and not lose the one thing that he loved again. And Z was just a burden that was not all that important anymore, given the lack of medical care and love that the little angel received in her short time here with us.

Hope this makes sense...:waitasec:

This is my opinion! Not that it matters!:crazy:

thisjusthurtsmyheart
11-28-2010, 05:25 PM
((((peg4x4)))) Hugs to you my dear friend...Hope everything works out well for you and your family. Sorry OT just wanted to give some luv to a fellow sleuther.:blushing:


"Detaching" Thank you.. That seems to be what I have done from my family due to deaths,terminal illnesses,both mine and others in the family.. Now I have a "word" to go to the Dr with and maybe get help.. Or not ~ There is much to face..
Sorry,OT... But thanks..

TorisMom003
11-29-2010, 02:44 AM
Then I'm thinking that "Ma" better get her weapon of choice ready.

I believe that both AB and EB were involved in Zahra's death and hiding her body. I don't buy into ABs claims that he didn't know alot of what was happening because of his work schedule. I also don't buy into his mother's claims that she had no contact at all with AB and/or Zahra the entire time they were in NC. Sounds like this is going to turn into a huge "he said/she said" production. With each side blaming the other. Fortunately for us both can be tried for Zahra's murder even if LE can't prove exactly who was the one that killed her.

OT: I wonder who is paying for "Ma" and her other son to stay here in the US. How is AB paying rent, food, gas, etc? Is he still employed?

WhyaDuck?
11-29-2010, 02:55 AM
Hi TorisMom!

You might find this thread interesting:

AB living expenses - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

WhyaDuck?
11-29-2010, 11:57 AM
Reminders:


No bashing of non-suspects.
No sleuthing of non-suspects.
No name calling.
Be very careful of how much weight you give to unverified sources from other sites, who, in actuality, could be anyone.
If you choose to interact with people claiming to be case players, please don't bring those interactions here - as both the source and you are then unverified "insiders," and this classes as rumour.


We gave these threads a lot of leaway this weekend to see where they were going, but the Facebook comments have started to take over every thread with no real way to tell if these posters are who they are claiming to be.

I know it is very difficult to manage a case when the MSM dries up, and it is nervewracking to wait for charges/trials/info/etc, but, sadly, this happens with nearly every case at some point. Every case team has to learn how to deal with the agony of the long haul eventually.

Keep Zahra in your thoughts, but try not to let anger and rumour get the best of you.

tlcya
11-29-2010, 08:16 PM
still stuck on this question. Sigh. I am beginning to think until I can gauge LE's take on this I will be stuck, right here, confused.

May I just say that is a really sucky position to sit in. I do not like this. Come on LE and DA, build that case and lay out something to give me an idea of where to fall here!

mmmagique
11-30-2010, 01:01 AM
I agree with the detachment theory, but not because of the cancer.
I believe his apathy had to do with a combination of laziness and lifestyle choices (ie, drugs, drinking, computer addiction, and possibly some other "interesting" sexual dalliances)
His daughter just wasn't a priority.

newone
11-30-2010, 01:06 AM
I agree with the detachment theory, but not because of the cancer.
I believe his apathy had to do with a combination of laziness and lifestyle choices (ie, drugs, drinking, computer addiction, and possibly some other "interesting" sexual dalliances)
His daughter just wasn't a priority.

one more for your list

egocentricity - just wants a normal life

mmmagique
11-30-2010, 01:11 AM
one more for your list

egocentricity - just wants a normal life

egocentric /ego·cen·tric/ (-sen´trik) self-centered; preoccupied with one's own interests and needs; lacking concern for others.

Yep...that pretty much nails it as far as what I'm thinking his motivations were. That, and I REALLY believe a lot of it was laziness and apathy. He just couldn't be bothered. (imo)

Mountain_Kat
11-30-2010, 10:47 AM
I agree with the detachment theory, but not because of the cancer.
I believe his apathy had to do with a combination of laziness and lifestyle choices (ie, drugs, drinking, computer addiction, and possibly some other "interesting" sexual dalliances)
His daughter just wasn't a priority.

That is EXACTLY my thinking. I also believe AB is the kind of man who has very definite ideas about what role the women in his life are supposed to fulfill.

JMO

Jo in Calif
11-30-2010, 06:40 PM
I'm still not convinced that AB had anything to do with this. Everything could have been done while he was gone.
Is there anything stating that EB names AB or does she keep saying we and he?
Edit/Delete Message

newone
11-30-2010, 06:51 PM
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8173019/zahra-bakers-dad-grandmother-in-hiding

The fact that he's in hiding and has no passport doesn't bode well for innocence

tlcya
11-30-2010, 07:29 PM
Given the rather salacious accusations that have come out via the MSM regarding possible rape of Zahra by two men, and given the local sentiment around hickory, finally given he can't leave per LE while this is all ongoing. Well, given all those things - He would be a fool not to be laying low right now for his own safety, innocent or guilty. MOO

Aedrys
11-30-2010, 07:50 PM
I think there's little doubt of his involvement after the unsealing of the search warrants...I by when we get to actually read them the entire poll on this thread is going to topple over!

Bia.
11-30-2010, 07:50 PM
100% Guilty IMO.

Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, AB? Or weeks ago? Which is it? No matter how distraught I am there is no way I could not know the day I last saw my daughter.

tlcya
11-30-2010, 07:52 PM
I do not want to decide what I think the warrants reveal or don't reveal based on some reporter's interpretation. I wish they would just link the d*mn PDFs already!

april_showers
11-30-2010, 08:46 PM
I do not want to decide what I think the warrants reveal or don't reveal based on some reporter's interpretation. I wish they would just link the d*mn PDFs already!

I KNOW!! I'm about ready to fly to NC and scan them myself. =)

april_showers
11-30-2010, 08:55 PM
100% Guilty IMO.

Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, AB? Or weeks ago? Which is it? No matter how distraught I am there is no way I could not know the day I last saw my daughter.

I agree with you. Then 10 seconds later I doubt myself. Then 20 seconds later, I disagree. Then I agree again. :banghead:

I'm sure more will be uncovered shortly... but there's still this part of me that wonders if EB was keeping AB in the dark at first. The warrant states that LE was initially suspicious due to the conflicting stories between the Bakers. It just seems to me that if two people were in on something like this together - and with the amount of time she/they hestitated before dialing 911 - they'd have plenty of time to at least get the simple details straight. "OK. So we went to bed, she was fine... you peeked it at 2:00 am... then this morning she was gone..." LE usually trips people once they start into the more convulated details that perps don't think to cover - not on what was likely the first question of "when did you see her last?"

I dunno. It just seems so odd that they wouldn't have the basics covered. To me this might indicate that EB had AB following some sort of script without fully knowing what was going on (a "Zahra's fine - we're just scamming your boss out of $" sort of thing, perhaps) and AB was peppering EB's script with what he actually knew as truth (hence the obvious discrepencies).

Either that... or I guess he could just not be that bright and was screwing up their simple cover story. And if that's true- it would explain her anger that HE screwed up the story, yet SHE got hauled off to jail.

See - there I go. Changing my d*mn mind again! =)

Capri
11-30-2010, 09:16 PM
Elisa Baker directed investigators to the Fox Ridge apartments in Hickory. Through her attorney, she admitted that she and Adam Baker wrapped Zahra's prosthetic leg in a white trash bag and threw it in the apartment Dumpster.

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/30/1877305/stepmother-zahra-bakers-body-dismembered.html#ixzz16p1tKm7B

Jolynna
11-30-2010, 09:59 PM
The recently released documents leave little doubt that Adam was at least involved in Zahra's disposal. Besides his confused time line, I just don't believe AB didn't notice any of the by-products of dismemberment in the bathtub, the wall spatter or the painting to cover up the wall spatter. I don't believe EB got rid of the mattress and box springs by herself. I think AB was the one most familiar with cutting tools. He was a treecutter. Maybe AB wouldn't notice a quilt going missing. But, he would have noticed his car cover being gone.

I believe AB is at least guilty of helping EB cover up and maybe more.

Jolynna
11-30-2010, 10:01 PM
I wonder how many pairs of gloves are missing from the box that was found under the bathroom sink?

passionflower
11-30-2010, 10:06 PM
arrest AB
already!

AB is disgusting IMO...........he is as guilty as EB

mmmagique
11-30-2010, 10:13 PM
I'm still not convinced that AB had anything to do with this. Everything could have been done while he was gone.
Is there anything stating that EB names AB or does she keep saying we and he?
Edit/Delete Message

Didn't he say he saw her that morning? (before he called in the missing person's report?) Why would he say that if she was (apparently according to news reports out now) already dead, dismembered and buried?

That's why I believe he was (at the very least) involved in the cover up. Possibly more.

LCoastMom
11-30-2010, 10:55 PM
There are conflicting reports about when Adam Baker last saw Zahra. He told police it was the Wednesday morning before he reported her missing. In the 911 call made Saturday, Oct. 9 to report her missing, he said he last saw Zahra at 2:30 that morning. He told reporters he last saw her the Thursday before.

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/633403/search-warrants-in-zahra-baker-to-be-released

So Tuesday? Wednesday? Thursday? Friday nite / Saturday morning 2AM-ish? My problem with AB - the truth doesn't change... :furious: :furious:

LCoastMom
11-30-2010, 11:04 PM
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8173019/zahra-bakers-dad-grandmother-in-hiding

The fact that he's in hiding and has no passport doesn't bode well for innocence

The people in Hickory (according to locals at Hinky) were already fired up over the weekend - before any of this came out. They may have to put Ma and Sonny in protective custody if this keeps up -

IMO An apartment building that also houses other innocent parties, not involved with this case - is leaving too many people at risk..

essies
11-30-2010, 11:13 PM
New post by Val at the Hinky Meter-
Zahra Baker case: Warrants released, and lies uncovered
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/
snip-
Remember the adage, “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer”? Well, what happens when your friend considers you the enemy? Adam Baker is about to find out, because he has someone in his life he thought he could trust…that he couldn’t. And they are talking. And what they are telling isn’t working out well for Adam or any one close to him.

noonie
12-01-2010, 01:15 AM
Now they are reporting Zarah was raped by 2 men!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God rest her soul!!!!! It was on the news tonight !!!!!!!!!!!!! This is unbearable to hear.

Allusonz
12-01-2010, 02:19 AM
There are conflicting reports about when Adam Baker last saw Zahra. He told police it was the Wednesday morning before he reported her missing. In the 911 call made Saturday, Oct. 9 to report her missing, he said he last saw Zahra at 2:30 that morning. He told reporters he last saw her the Thursday before.

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/633403/search-warrants-in-zahra-baker-to-be-released

So Tuesday? Wednesday? Thursday? Friday nite / Saturday morning 2AM-ish? My problem with AB - the truth doesn't change... :furious: :furious:

I agree there are discrepancies in Ab's timeline but i also believe some can be explained

If my husband stated to me that he checked on one of my children at such a time i could very well see me using the we/i as the time even though i personally did not see them as i would have no reason not to believe him such as the 911 call

If i recall correctly they were worded a bit differently one stated something to the effect of when did you last see her out of her room then when did you last see your daughter. I could be wrong as i am going on memory here

I do not recall though anytime AB stated it being a Wednesday, i have heard tues, thurs, fri/sat morning so the wednesday one really has me wondering

Again though these are search warrents not actual testimony MOO

Lera213
12-01-2010, 03:58 AM
MOO:

AB is guilty because I believe even though EB lied constantly she isn't now. She told the cops exactly where everything was that she knew about. She only knew IMO the location of where the buried part of Zarha was but not the exact spot. Someone else did that. This time she told the truth, she even told the truth about writing the note; therefore I believe she is telling the truth now because she doesn't want the Death Penalty.

drivinmebonkers
12-01-2010, 09:45 AM
This is what bothers me about this whole thing. First of all I think there is many lies, hidden truths, and cover ups. I know she has basically severed ties with EVERYONE that either knew her or was related to her. I think this is one way for everyone to get together and tell things about her to make sure she NEVER gets out of jail. It is like getting rid of her..Let's say this and say that and we'll make sure she stays behind bars..Don't know if that makes any sense or not, but Everyone that seems to know EB, hates her and tells everyone..Everyone that seems to AB, sticks up for him (maybe that isn't the correct word) but befriends him. I see a slight conspiracy going on. Like this is their perfect chance to get rid of her besides Killing her. Grant it, I think she is guilty, crazy, abusive, and a meth head..I still believe innocent until proven guilty fits both AB and EB.. She is obviously involved but so is he? I think he is another con artist as well... This is all my opinion and what I gather from all this and IN NO WAY am I slamming the family and friends or trying to discredit them in what they say.

believe09
12-01-2010, 09:46 AM
IIRC, the warrants indicate that EB stated Zahra attended an Oktoberfest event the night before she was called in missing. AB states (in the same warrant) he saw her the Wednesday before, as in the week before. That is how I am reading his statement.

Which is it? He didnt see her for 8 days, he didnt see her for 2 days, he didnt see her for 24 hours?

Big gap. Time to fess up, unless you have participated in committing capital murder. Then you should probably just keep quiet.

Patriciao
12-01-2010, 10:40 AM
Adam is guilty of choosing to ignore what was going on around him. Maybe drugs kept his brain in a fog but he was deliberately choosing to not face reality when it came to his daughter. What father would tell police on 10/9 he hadn't seen his daughter since 10/6 (Wednesday before) yet had done nothing to locate her? For this alone he should be punished greatly.

Peliman
12-01-2010, 10:49 AM
Here's how people in Oz see it today. I have to take a breath before commenting. I'm curious who the someone was that was wearing latex gloves EB refers to. Where's the truth in all this?


http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/8431336/zahras-dad-accused-of-disposal-role/

Lera213
12-01-2010, 11:20 AM
Yep this is how I see it, They both used the Tahoe to dump runs but AB used the other car and went and buried Zarah's Torso (sorry to be graphic) so EB knew the area he buried it but not the exact spot. She led them to the area, all of them.

raisincharlie
12-01-2010, 12:32 PM
Yep this is how I see it, They both used the Tahoe to dump runs but AB used the other car and went and buried Zarah's Torso (sorry to be graphic) so EB knew the area he buried it but not the exact spot. She led them to the area, all of them.

There is some confusion about some of this, at least on my part. In the search warrant data it is reported the prosthetic was wrapped in a white trash bag and discarded by the two of them at the Fox Ridge Apartments. The defense motion states only the gel liner was found on Christie Road but the press reported the prosthetic as being found there.

My confusion is LE confirmed they found the prosthetic and matched the serial number - so where did they find it really? If true it was discarded to the dumpster, then it is highly unlikely it was found on Christie Road - hmmmm.

WhyaDuck?
12-01-2010, 12:34 PM
I see a lot of people confused over the Dumpster/wilderness road issue. I would like to suggest a thread on it, but I have no idea how to phrase it! :blush:

raisincharlie
12-01-2010, 12:37 PM
I see a lot of people confused over the Dumpster/wilderness road issue. I would like to suggest a thread on it, but I have no idea how to phrase it! :blush:

Can of worms :waitasec: ?

This issue is about the only thing for me that clearly points to someone other than EB, and that would be AB. I don't know how much it could actually be discussed very much with what we have now though.

WhyaDuck?
12-01-2010, 12:38 PM
Okay, I sorta-kinda did. I hope this helps, b/c it is a weird thing, and I have noticed a lot of head scratching through all the threads.

11.30.2010 - Confusion over reports, re: Dumpster vs Wilderness - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

WhyaDuck?
12-01-2010, 12:39 PM
Can of worms :waitasec: ?

This issue is about the only thing for me that clearly points to someone other than EB, and that would be AB. I don't know how much it could actually be discussed very much with what we have now though.

I am not terribly concerned with how much can be discussed or long the thread is, etc. It just might be nice to have a one-stop for that question, as a resource.

Allusonz
12-01-2010, 03:22 PM
There is some confusion about some of this, at least on my part. In the search warrant data it is reported the prosthetic was wrapped in a white trash bag and discarded by the two of them at the Fox Ridge Apartments. The defense motion states only the gel liner was found on Christie Road but the press reported the prosthetic as being found there.

My confusion is LE confirmed they found the prosthetic and matched the serial number - so where did they find it really? If true it was discarded to the dumpster, then it is highly unlikely it was found on Christie Road - hmmmm.

Did they find it? or was it retrieved by EB's lawyer?

NoeticSoul
12-01-2010, 04:11 PM
Townsville Bulletin News AU

(snipped)

"The shocking news devastated Adam and Karen, who had to hear the horrific news on the US evening news on Tuesday night.

Mrs Baker, who flew to North Carolina last month to be by Adam's side while the search continued for Zahra, cried on the phone yesterday as she tried to come to grips with the thought that her beloved granddaughter could have suffered even more before her brutal death.

``We had no idea that police were even investigating this possibility,'' Mrs Baker sobbed.

``It can't get any more horrific than this, surely ...

``The warrants apparently said that Zahra had been taken to a particular house a few days before Elisa reported her missing, and that she was sexually assaulted by two men.

``Adam just went white as a ghost and collapsed when he heard on the news ... he can't take much more.''

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/12/02/189011_news.html

BBM I'll bet he Did.

tehcloser
12-01-2010, 04:13 PM
I wonder if she commented about him helping dismember her????????????? Which reminds me of a question. Let's suppose there are other "men" involved and she was raped. And let's suppose these were considered "bad dudes", would Adam be afraid of them? Would that be a reason he would help dispose of her?

raisincharlie
12-01-2010, 04:24 PM
Townsville Bulletin News AU

(snipped)

"The shocking news devastated Adam and Karen, who had to hear the horrific news on the US evening news on Tuesday night.

Mrs Baker, who flew to North Carolina last month to be by Adam's side while the search continued for Zahra, cried on the phone yesterday as she tried to come to grips with the thought that her beloved granddaughter could have suffered even more before her brutal death.

``We had no idea that police were even investigating this possibility,'' Mrs Baker sobbed.

``It can't get any more horrific than this, surely ...

``The warrants apparently said that Zahra had been taken to a particular house a few days before Elisa reported her missing, and that she was sexually assaulted by two men.

``Adam just went white as a ghost and collapsed when he heard on the news ... he can't take much more.''

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/12/02/189011_news.html

BBM I'll bet he Did.

I might also turn white as a ghost and collapse were there search warrants stating I had helped to dismember a child and then took the parts here there and yonder. Never mind, KB wasn't talking about that part...:D

TorisMom003
12-01-2010, 04:27 PM
Townsville Bulletin News AU

(snipped)

"The shocking news devastated Adam and Karen, who had to hear the horrific news on the US evening news on Tuesday night.

Mrs Baker, who flew to North Carolina last month to be by Adam's side while the search continued for Zahra, cried on the phone yesterday as she tried to come to grips with the thought that her beloved granddaughter could have suffered even more before her brutal death.

``We had no idea that police were even investigating this possibility,'' Mrs Baker sobbed.

``It can't get any more horrific than this, surely ...

``The warrants apparently said that Zahra had been taken to a particular house a few days before Elisa reported her missing, and that she was sexually assaulted by two men.

``Adam just went white as a ghost and collapsed when he heard on the news ... he can't take much more.''

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/12/02/189011_news.html

BBM I'll bet he Did.

Karen may want to rethink that statement about Elisa reporting Zahra missing.....that was all Adam that did that. I guess Adam has lied to his mom and she hasn't bothered to listen to the 911 call. Seems to me that someone needs to open her eyes and look at what is staring her in the face.

cyberborg
12-01-2010, 04:43 PM
Karen may want to rethink that statement about Elisa reporting Zahra missing.....that was all Adam that did that. I guess Adam has lied to his mom and she hasn't bothered to listen to the 911 call. Seems to me that someone needs to open her eyes and look at what is staring her in the face.

She is probably desperately trying to 'detach' from the facts as they are reported and blame it all on EB ... as if AB was never there. Subconsciously she probably fears the worst and AB's direct involvement and even has knowledge of inconsistencies from AB but ... does not want to give any credence to any of it.

myzzy
12-01-2010, 04:47 PM
With what is released so far in the warrants, i would that that LE is looking at AB as a suspect in the rape, murder, disposal of ZB, then wouldnt they be wanting warrants for his social networks? From what i can see its all directed towards EB and her networks, I would assume that if they thought both of them did this then his accounts could hold possible clues or discussions ect same as EB;s accounts?

I believe at this point the finger is getting further and further away from AB and i think its possible his only crime was stupidity, Not to say he shouldnt or wont be charged with neglect of some sort if he is not involved

TorisMom003
12-01-2010, 04:48 PM
You may be right Cyber. But how is that helping her deal with this? How is it helping get justice for Zahra? I know that I would want to know exactly what happened to my child/grandchild. When a child is killed like this wouldn't the family want to know the details? If the child had to endure this wouldn't the family want to know about it? I just see so many denials that it makes me mad. Zahra had very few people that really cared about her (apparently) when she was alive, the kind that cared enough to do whatever was needed to protect her. Now in her death those people that says they cared should care enough to hear and deal with the truth.

MOO

bellyup
12-01-2010, 04:53 PM
With what is released so far in the warrants, i would that that LE is looking at AB as a suspect in the rape, murder, disposal of ZB, then wouldnt they be wanting warrants for his social networks? From what i can see its all directed towards EB and her networks, I would assume that if they thought both of them did this then his accounts could hold possible clues or discussions ect same as EB;s accounts?

I believe at this point the finger is getting further and further away from AB and i think its possible his only crime was stupidity, Not to say he shouldnt or wont be charged with neglect of some sort if he is not involved

I agree with this (no surprise).
I am leaning more and more toward AB being clueless.... HOWEVER, there is one thing I can't remove myself from. EB is MORE than happy to blame anyone but herself. So if these alleged rapes occurred and it led to to Zahra's demise ... why would she not be pointing the finger in that direction rather than pointing at AB ?
It would mean her loyalties are to SY and JY and that's she's protecting them over AB ?
Either way it would absolve her of any major wrong doing.

ETA: OR this could have been a way to get rid of Zahra AND AB ....... so that she could be with her new "love". Ligh tbulb moment. Frame AB for the entire thing and he's out of the picture too. No need for a divorce just go ahead and marry SY.

LCoastMom
12-01-2010, 05:11 PM
Townsville Bulletin News AU

(snipped)

"The shocking news devastated Adam and Karen, who had to hear the horrific news on the US evening news on Tuesday night.

Mrs Baker, who flew to North Carolina last month to be by Adam's side while the search continued for Zahra, cried on the phone yesterday as she tried to come to grips with the thought that her beloved granddaughter could have suffered even more before her brutal death.

``We had no idea that police were even investigating this possibility,'' Mrs Baker sobbed.

``It can't get any more horrific than this, surely ...

``The warrants apparently said that Zahra had been taken to a particular house a few days before Elisa reported her missing, and that she was sexually assaulted by two men.

``Adam just went white as a ghost and collapsed when he heard on the news ... he can't take much more.''

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/12/02/189011_news.html

BBM I'll bet he Did.

IDK what the deal is with the warrants not including AB, unless they are still sealed, but hearing that KB and AB learned this news via the media, speaks volumes about how LE views him and possibly her too.

Informing victims relatives (AKA victims) is just common courtesy. Something that LE would not concern themselves with if AB is a suspect.

So I'm not seeing lack of naming AB in the warrants, as being good news for the Bakers.

believe09
12-01-2010, 05:14 PM
With what is released so far in the warrants, i would that that LE is looking at AB as a suspect in the rape, murder, disposal of ZB, then wouldnt they be wanting warrants for his social networks? From what i can see its all directed towards EB and her networks, I would assume that if they thought both of them did this then his accounts could hold possible clues or discussions ect same as EB;s accounts?

I believe at this point the finger is getting further and further away from AB and i think its possible his only crime was stupidity, Not to say he shouldnt or wont be charged with neglect of some sort if he is not involved

I am convinced that they did not release all of the warrants. Think about it-IF at least one of the two men passed a LDT, then the chances are pretty good he is crossed off the list. (Meaning those who passed.) So NBD if that warrant is released.

We do not see any warrants directly related to AB, but for sure they are out there.

believe09
12-01-2010, 05:17 PM
Let's think about the notification process-what if LE wanted to observe the reaction? They could not have notified KB without AB being notified as well. What if they tapped the phones, GPS'd the car, bugged the house? They know AB's actual reaction to the news. KB may be blind to some extent, or she is protecting her young.

If you believe AB is involved. Which I believe, JMVHO.

Mountain_Kat
12-01-2010, 05:24 PM
I am convinced that they did not release all of the warrants. Think about it-IF at least one of the two men passed a LDT, then the chances are pretty good he is crossed off the list. (Meaning those who passed.) So NBD if that warrant is released.

We do not see any warrants directly related to AB, but for sure they are out there.

Well, there's the sw for AB's cell phone and cell phone records. There's the sw for the "company vehicle" AB drove. And there are various search warrants for the home he shared with EB. All of these might be applied to AB, imo.

CPP
12-01-2010, 05:27 PM
From the beginning I believed it impossible for AB not to have known about EB's torture of Zahara. Unless, of course, his head were encased in cement and he was blind in both eyes. I also believed he was involved in her death / the coverup when I read that the cadaver dogs hit on "both" cars. Lastly, I've been rather caught up in my own personal drama and hadn't really listened to the 911 tape. When I did, I was appalled at his detachment. He might as well have been calling Dominoes to order pizza. Then he mentioned Zahra and puberty and alarms went off for me. She's only 10, why would a father bring up his child's sexual development at a time when she's gone missing?? I know I seemed a bit callous last week when I posted she was sexually abused by AB. But that is what prompted it. Allegations about 2 other men notwithstanding, nothing has changed my opinion. If the assault took place at another residence, why dispose of the mattress at the Hickory house?? I shudder to think whose DNA they recover from it. Worse yet, my heart breaks for little Zahra and the Hell-on-Earth she endured at the hands of these people.

drivinmebonkers
12-01-2010, 05:31 PM
Well, there's the sw for AB's cell phone and cell phone records. There's the sw for the "company vehicle" AB drove. And there are various search warrants for the home he shared with EB. All of these might be applied to AB, imo.

I personally think AB should be "suspect" as well and his Email Accounts and Myspace/Facebook should be mentioned in the warrants as well. Maybe, they have looked at them, but he has plenty of time to erase and delete stuff, where Elisa didn't.

He is just as much a suspect as EB IMO.

LCoastMom
12-01-2010, 06:02 PM
I am convinced that they did not release all of the warrants. Think about it-IF at least one of the two men passed a LDT, then the chances are pretty good he is crossed off the list. (Meaning those who passed.) So NBD if that warrant is released.

We do not see any warrants directly related to AB, but for sure they are out there.

Just before coming here last night I read the news report saying there were 13 warrants not released - by the time I read the first new thread it was learned that in fact 11 warrants had been released. For sure that left 2 known warrants (over 30 days old) still sealed - plus however many newer than 30 days old.

DLT88
12-01-2010, 06:06 PM
Townsville Bulletin News AU

(snipped)

"The shocking news devastated Adam and Karen, who had to hear the horrific news on the US evening news on Tuesday night.

Mrs Baker, who flew to North Carolina last month to be by Adam's side while the search continued for Zahra, cried on the phone yesterday as she tried to come to grips with the thought that her beloved granddaughter could have suffered even more before her brutal death.

``We had no idea that police were even investigating this possibility,'' Mrs Baker sobbed.

``It can't get any more horrific than this, surely ...

``The warrants apparently said that Zahra had been taken to a particular house a few days before Elisa reported her missing, and that she was sexually assaulted by two men.

``Adam just went white as a ghost and collapsed when he heard on the news ... he can't take much more.''

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/12/02/189011_news.html

BBM I'll bet he Did.

If it is the truth that Adam knew nothing about this arranged 'gang rape' of his child, WHY would he help EB dispose of the body? Just WHAT did he think she died from that he felt he had to help in the cover-up??? If it's true he wrapped up the prosthetic and threw it out, he KNEW there was a murder or something that needed to be covered up. Protecting EB and not wanting to lose her could be a reason as someone else posted. Oy, but still!

Also, if he didn't know about this horrific crime, and Zahra was brought back home by EB and put into her bed -- where she continued to bleed onto her mattress -- is "Zahra started her period" the explanation EB gave her naive (if he truly is) husband when they had to get rid of the mattress?? Is that why he goofily chuckled over his "puberty" comment on the 911 call? I just think AB thinks so differently from most people and that's why he is so hard to figure out.

myzzy
12-01-2010, 06:08 PM
I agree with this (no surprise).
I am leaning more and more toward AB being clueless.... HOWEVER, there is one thing I can't remove myself from. EB is MORE than happy to blame anyone but herself. So if these alleged rapes occurred and it led to to Zahra's demise ... why would she not be pointing the finger in that direction rather than pointing at AB ?
It would mean her loyalties are to SY and JY and that's she's protecting them over AB ?
Either way it would absolve her of any major wrong doing.

ETA: OR this could have been a way to get rid of Zahra AND AB ....... so that she could be with her new "love". Ligh tbulb moment. Frame AB for the entire thing and he's out of the picture too. No need for a divorce just go ahead and marry SY.

BBM - Its possible she blamed him in her own mind for the end result ( not the actual crime) Its almost a cerain we are missing key information that would without a doubt point the finger in the right direction but without ALL the information we are only left to speculate and piece things together how we think they fit.

What if ( far fetch scenario) AB had a affair, gets caught and EB decided to get even one way or another and through turn of events she runs to the cousins with ZB and then leaves ZB with them to get drugs or is passed out high when the rape and murder take place (EB states We really didnt kill her).

The cousins force EB to help them dismember poor ZB to dispose of the remains and they plan out how EB is to report ZB missing, all along AB is played as a puppet and had nothing to do with it but because the house is shared, the wife is the culprit, his contridictions to EBs story ect, making things not jive and he is then looking very guilty. I could see some woman being so vindictive that they would do something like this, whos to say EB is not this type of person?

NOT saying this is what happened just another twist of possibilitys

IDK what the deal is with the warrants not including AB, unless they are still sealed, but hearing that KB and AB learned this news via the media, speaks volumes about how LE views him and possibly her too.

Informing victims relatives (AKA victims) is just common courtesy. Something that LE would not concern themselves with if AB is a suspect.

So I'm not seeing lack of naming AB in the warrants, as being good news for the Bakers.

Its possible they knew the jist of it but not the full details layed out in the warrants or knew and it being in black and white was the "shock"


I am convinced that they did not release all of the warrants. Think about it-IF at least one of the two men passed a LDT, then the chances are pretty good he is crossed off the list. (Meaning those who passed.) So NBD if that warrant is released.

We do not see any warrants directly related to AB, but for sure they are out there.

Why would LE knowingly allow their names to be made public if they are innocent? Publicly outing someone as a child rapist ( even if its a allegation) would be very reckless and damning to LE and the named person.

Way to many "IFs" in this case and way to many missing details.

newone
12-01-2010, 06:09 PM
If it is the truth that Adam knew nothing about this arranged 'gang rape' of his child, WHY would he help EB dispose of the body? Just WHAT did he think she died from that he felt he had to help in the cover-up??? If it's true he wrapped up the prosthetic and threw it out, he KNEW there was a murder or something that needed to be covered up. Protecting EB and not wanting to lose her could be a reason as someone else posted. Oy, but still!

Also, if he didn't know about this horrific crime, and Zahra was brought back home by EB and put into her bed -- where she continued to bleed onto her mattress -- is "Zahra started her period" the explanation EB gave her naive (if he truly is) husband when they had to get rid of the mattress?? Is that why he goofily chuckled over his "puberty" comment on the 911 call? I just think AB thinks so differently from most people and that's why he is so hard to figure out.

bbm

I believe EB was counting on the ''awkwardness'' of the coming of age possibility with AB and that's why he was referring to broodiness in his telephone conversation. It would be fairly easy for EB to say -- she's got cramps etc and needs a nap leaver her alone. Fairly easy to dupe him on that count. I just haven't figured out the rest of the heinous acts.

raisincharlie
12-01-2010, 06:12 PM
With what is released so far in the warrants, i would that that LE is looking at AB as a suspect in the rape, murder, disposal of ZB, then wouldnt they be wanting warrants for his social networks? From what i can see its all directed towards EB and her networks, I would assume that if they thought both of them did this then his accounts could hold possible clues or discussions ect same as EB;s accounts?

I believe at this point the finger is getting further and further away from AB and i think its possible his only crime was stupidity, Not to say he shouldnt or wont be charged with neglect of some sort if he is not involved

Just to my thinking, they haven't ruled him out either at this point. If the phone company has responded and provided all of the data requested for AB's phone, and if they have had the time to throughly review that data, they already have a very good idea as to whether or not he is involved. Cell pings and GPS triangulation would reveal if he was at any of the search locations that yielded evidence.

There remain two warrants, which the DA is going to court on December 13th to fight to make sure they remain sealed. I'm thinking there is something in those two particular warrants that may well be way too much information for both the public and those involved to know at this point. I'm not ready to think AB has absolutely nothing to do with this just yet.

I should add, there may be others as well that cannot yet be ruled out.

westsidefox64
12-01-2010, 06:41 PM
I have made it no secret through this whole thing that I thought AB was innocent in the murder and cover up. I also let it be known I thought he was guilty of neglecting Z. Since these new aligations have come out I have officially put myself high up on the fence! I have changed my vote 3 times since last night. I vote I have no idea if he was involved or not....ILL TAKE MY HUMBLE PIE NOW :)

LCoastMom
12-01-2010, 06:50 PM
I have made it no secret through this whole thing that I thought AB was innocent in the murder and cover up. I also let it be known I thought he was guilty of neglecting Z. Since these new aligations have come out I have officially put myself high up on the fence! I have changed my vote 3 times since last night. I vote I have no idea if he was involved or not....ILL TAKE MY HUMBLE PIE NOW :)

(((HUGS))) Would you like some ice cream to make it go down easier? I still believe he is involved in this mess, but I cannot make up my mind where he comes in. So many of us will be taking a slice at some point. :confused:

sherbetjello
12-01-2010, 07:36 PM
I don't know where to put this, but it does pertain to AB.
I have a question, then an idea.

Q.) LE, if you are listening, have you tested the Baker home for the creation of meth? I know there is a test, I just read about it in the news the other day (a couple bought a home, four days after purchase they found out it was used as a meth lab in 2004.)
Also, if testing was ever done, couldn't you nab AB on neglect and/or child endangerment charges?

Bia.
12-01-2010, 08:00 PM
It just ads up to me now. The "brooding" comment.....ugh. He knew what was going on and he did nothing to stop it.

passionflower
12-01-2010, 08:05 PM
There IS a BAD side of AB, do NOT forget the drugs, road rage, threats, neglect of Zahra, stun gun,
kept Zahra from ED.
and mom saying AB turned white at news of rape...........yeah remember he lived in the house AFTER Zahra was dismembered............Zahra's tissue and small bones from bathroom and in the house and he never saw ANYTHING?????
I do not buy it at all.................He is guilty also. IMO

passionflower
12-01-2010, 08:09 PM
On NG no one has seen AB lately.
He did go to funeral home to make arrangements.
Tomorrow a tribute for Zahra, 2 books to sign.......1 for mom 1 for AB.
Where did he get a car to drive around.
Caller knows exactly where AB lives in his new apt.

LCoastMom
12-01-2010, 08:22 PM
I agree there are discrepancies in Ab's timeline but i also believe some can be explained

If my husband stated to me that he checked on one of my children at such a time i could very well see me using the we/i as the time even though i personally did not see them as i would have no reason not to believe him such as the 911 call

If i recall correctly they were worded a bit differently one stated something to the effect of when did you last see her out of her room then when did you last see your daughter. I could be wrong as i am going on memory here

I do not recall though anytime AB stated it being a Wednesday, i have heard tues, thurs, fri/sat morning so the wednesday one really has me wondering

Again though these are search warrents not actual testimony MOO

I agree, if my husband said he saw our child on Sat nite, I would have no reason to doubt his word, but if asked when I last saw her, I would not give his answer as it were my own.

You and your husband are not standing accused of making your child disappear, I believe these various days were the second clue (after that bizarre note and lack of out cry to PLEASE FIND MY DAUGHTER!) to LE, that they had a huge problem on their hands.

As we discovered in the Anthony case, a statement given to LE during an investigation, is expected to be truthful and can come back to bite you on the backside, if found to be a deliberate fabrication.

I thought (by memory only) in the 911 call, AB said his wife/daughter's mother last saw Zahra last night (prior to the fire) but in the first interview that changed to he saw her Thursday night, another was he thought it was her in the bed Sat nite . Then another reporter asked when did he last see her and he offered up the comment 100%? .. out of bed? Tuesday.

IDK about LE, but it put my hinky meter through the roof. Wednesday just adds to the confusion.

passionflower
12-01-2010, 09:05 PM
WOW, go read the Nancy G thread tonight..........

free2ride
12-01-2010, 09:32 PM
WOW, go read the Nancy G thread tonight..........

Do you have a link?

Aedrys
12-01-2010, 10:13 PM
Townsville Bulletin News AU

(snipped)

"The shocking news devastated Adam and Karen, who had to hear the horrific news on the US evening news on Tuesday night.

Mrs Baker, who flew to North Carolina last month to be by Adam's side while the search continued for Zahra, cried on the phone yesterday as she tried to come to grips with the thought that her beloved granddaughter could have suffered even more before her brutal death.

``We had no idea that police were even investigating this possibility,'' Mrs Baker sobbed.

``It can't get any more horrific than this, surely ...

``The warrants apparently said that Zahra had been taken to a particular house a few days before Elisa reported her missing, and that she was sexually assaulted by two men.

``Adam just went white as a ghost and collapsed when he heard on the news ... he can't take much more.''

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/12/02/189011_news.html

BBM I'll bet he Did.

So the death and dismemberment, he didn't bat an eyelash for and apparently it didn't phase his mother either. But the rape allegations, that made him collapse and made his mother cry? Am I missing something here? Whatever happened to Zahra is horrendous with or without rape being involved. They should have been crying and collapsing long before now...

NoeticSoul
12-01-2010, 10:28 PM
So the death and dismemberment, he didn't bat an eyelash for and apparently it didn't phase his mother either. But the rape allegations, that made him collapse and made his mother cry? Am I missing something here? Whatever happened to Zahra is horrendous with or without rape being involved. They should have been crying and collapsing long before now...

That would be correct, sadly. Interesting how AB stayed in that house for quite some time AFTER this horror and never-a-once saw any blood on any walls, tissue stuck to the wall, bloody gloves under the bathroom sink, never took a bath/shower, oh and the clothes that Zahra went missing in.. where right there at home.. hearing aids in jewelry boxes, but he never noticed any of those things.

NCMOM
12-02-2010, 12:08 AM
Then I'm thinking that "Ma" better get her weapon of choice ready.

I believe that both AB and EB were involved in Zahra's death and hiding her body. I don't buy into ABs claims that he didn't know alot of what was happening because of his work schedule. I also don't buy into his mother's claims that she had no contact at all with AB and/or Zahra the entire time they were in NC. Sounds like this is going to turn into a huge "he said/she said" production. With each side blaming the other. Fortunately for us both can be tried for Zahra's murder even if LE can't prove exactly who was the one that killed her.

OT: I wonder who is paying for "Ma" and her other son to stay here in the US. How is AB paying rent, food, gas, etc? Is he still employed?

No kidding, he was a tree cutter and landscaper. Give me a break, he wasn't a corporate executive that flies around the world. This idiot was a laborer. He wasn't gone THAT much! No, he no longer has a job. I assume AB's father is footing that bill. He claimed in court that he only had about $80 bucks to his name, and that was a couple of weeks ago. He isn't showing himself, because locals are watching out for him. He doesn't deserve to be in hiding. He should have to face his peers.

NCMOM
12-02-2010, 12:13 AM
I personally think AB should be "suspect" as well and his Email Accounts and Myspace/Facebook should be mentioned in the warrants as well. Maybe, they have looked at them, but he has plenty of time to erase and delete stuff, where Elisa didn't.

He is just as much a suspect as EB IMO.

NOTHING is ever erased. A warrant can be issued to Myspace and FaceBook to turn over everything. Just because you delete it on your side, doesn't mean it is deleted everywhere.

NCMOM
12-02-2010, 12:18 AM
That would be correct, sadly. Interesting how AB stayed in that house for quite some time AFTER this horror and never-a-once saw any blood on any walls, tissue stuck to the wall, bloody gloves under the bathroom sink, never took a bath/shower, oh and the clothes that Zahra went missing in.. where right there at home.. hearing aids in jewelry boxes, but he never noticed any of those things.

Oh please, Karen is trying to make herself look more vulnerable. No tears for her on any occasion when she entered the house. She was just mad as hell at the people who were yelling at her son. If I had entered the house for the first time that my Granddaughter had possibly been murdered in, I would have been a mess, and I would have made sure I had everything of hers packed up with me. But, they didn't. Didn't bother to take anything of Zahra's until the public and news got wind of it. Then they went back and got a few things for show (IMO).

Reannan
12-02-2010, 12:24 AM
I have made it no secret through this whole thing that I thought AB was innocent in the murder and cover up. I also let it be known I thought he was guilty of neglecting Z. Since these new aligations have come out I have officially put myself high up on the fence! I have changed my vote 3 times since last night. I vote I have no idea if he was involved or not....ILL TAKE MY HUMBLE PIE NOW :)

I have salt and pepper in zip lock bags that I hide in my bra so that I am ready to season any crow that I have to eat if I find out AB knew NOTHING about the abuse Zahra was subjected to. Sadly, I think the one person Zahra had in her life that she thought she could count on (her freaking father!!!!), was responsible for assisting with cutting her body up in the family bath tub. You couldn't write a horror novel that had anything worse than that!!!! I would love nothing more than to eventually find out I am wrong. I would love to find out Zahra thought fondly of her "daddy" right up until the end of her inspiring and amazing life. Until the truth cuts thru this tragedy, I stand fast in demanding justice for Zahra and punishment for ANYONE involved in her neglect, abuse, murder, or dismemberment! HOW HORRIBLE to even have to type those words!!!!

westsidefox64
12-02-2010, 12:41 AM
That would be correct, sadly. Interesting how AB stayed in that house for quite some time AFTER this horror and never-a-once saw any blood on any walls, tissue stuck to the wall, bloody gloves under the bathroom sink, never took a bath/shower, oh and the clothes that Zahra went missing in.. where right there at home.. hearing aids in jewelry boxes, but he never noticed any of those things.

This is mostly what is changing my mind about ABs involvment. The point about taking a shower or bath for that amount of time for there to still be evidence in the drain trap of the tub. I could see things being found in the sewer pipes outside if showers had been taken but not in the drain pipe.
I can see him not knowing the hearing aides are in the JB. Its not a place my DH is in on a frequent basis.I can see him not seeing blood or tissue on the walls etc. if it was painted over, and I dont believe the gloves under the sink were bloody. I think it was just what was left over in the box after the fact. I can on the other hand see a man who knew his child had been dismembered in a tub not being able to stand in it to take a shower. JMO

NoeticSoul
12-02-2010, 12:44 AM
wrong video sorry!

Mountain_Kat
12-02-2010, 12:46 AM
I think you might have the wrong video linked, Noetic. But I'm glad you posted it, because this is actually the first time I caught that that POS smirks after he says there is no way he could dismember his "baby". What on earth is amusing about THAT question?! :banghead: :furious: :banghead:

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 12:48 AM
wrong video sorry!

Thanks Noetic! J/K You just had me rewatch that video which almost caused me to rake my moniter off in the floor b/c those two during that interview get my blood boiling.

Neither AB or KB could even eek out one lousy tear but neither had no problem smirking and yucking it up for the camera! :furious:

NoeticSoul
12-02-2010, 12:51 AM
I think you might have the wrong video linked, Noetic. But I'm glad you posted it, because this is actually the first time I caught that that POS smirks after he says there is no way he could dismember his "baby". What on earth is amusing about THAT question?! :banghead: :furious: :banghead:


Thanks Noetic! J/K You just had me rewatch that video which almost caused me to rake my moniter off in the floor b/c those two during that interview get my blood boiling.

Neither AB or KB could even eek out one lousy tear but neither had no problem smirking and yucking it up for the camera! :furious:

Yes it was the wrong video, my apologies! It did also make me angry to see that again knowing what we now know.. I hope Justice is coming VERY SOON!

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 12:57 AM
It's almost 1AM here in NC and I'm restless and can't sleep b/c I can't get my mind off of the horror of this tragedy. The sad part is these monsters are probably sleeping like babies right now!

Mountain_Kat
12-02-2010, 01:03 AM
It's almost 1AM here in NC and I'm restless and can't sleep b/c I can't get my mind off of the horror of this tragedy. The sad part is these monsters are probably sleeping like babies right now!

O/T but...

I'm just over the mountain from you, Sal...and it's the same situation here. Strange night. I'm way out in the forest, and it's always quiet here at night, but tonight it seems almost eerily quiet. No dogs barking, no insects chirping, nothing. It's almost like the night itself is just holding its breath along with us. Maybe it's a sign. Or maybe I should just shake this all off for the night and try to sleep. ;)

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 01:08 AM
I voted that I think AB is not involved whatsoever. I have not read anywhere that he was a bad father. All the fingers are pointing at the step. Even by her own children.

sorrell skye
12-02-2010, 01:13 AM
So the death and dismemberment, he didn't bat an eyelash for and apparently it didn't phase his mother either. But the rape allegations, that made him collapse and made his mother cry? Am I missing something here? Whatever happened to Zahra is horrendous with or without rape being involved. They should have been crying and collapsing long before now...

bbm

ITA Aedrys.

Where was the "white as a ghost & collapsed" reaction when the sickening, horrendous news came out that her poor little body had been dismembered?

I can barely follow this case, it disturbs me so much.

I posted a couple of weeks ago that I believe AB is involved both in Zahra's death, and in the heinous disposal of her remains.

I still believe that.

One of the reasons: his nonchalant 911 call to report her *missing*, where he greeted the 911 dispatcher with "Hey, how are you doing?" and how he laughed (in that same phone call) about Zahra "coming into puberty" and "brooding".

Nowhere in that 911 call did he express panic, fear, or terror as to his precious little girl's whereabouts & safety. IMO, he was cool & casual, as if he was reporting the theft of something with no more value than a rusty, broken-down lawn mower.

Another reason: why is he inconsistent about when he says he last saw his daughter?

newone
12-02-2010, 01:18 AM
I voted that I think AB is not involved whatsoever. I have not read anywhere that he was a bad father. All the fingers are pointing at the step. Even by her own children.

Given that the stepmom appears to be very capable of orchestrating such a vicious murder, I felt that it was entirely possible that the dad was/could be uninvolved. I have NO doubt that EB was involved in this from top to finish, AB's involvement might have come at the very end (like calling police etc) because EB needed him to be implicated.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 01:25 AM
I think AB and his mother had already collapsed and cried over her death and what may have been done to her. But, hearing that she was raped means she suffered even more while still alive. I do understand why they reacted the way they did on hearing this.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 01:30 AM
Given that the stepmom appears to be very capable of orchestrating such a vicious murder, I felt that it was entirely possible that the dad was/could be uninvolved. I have NO doubt that EB was involved in this from top to finish, AB's involvement might have come at the very end (like calling police etc) because EB needed him to be implicated.

I think he didn't really know when he made that phone call.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 01:39 AM
EB probably told AB that Zahra had started her period... throw bed out... throw bedding out... buy new bed... blood in bathroom... "Puberty." He probably peaked in on her without EB knowing and that's when he found her gone.

newone
12-02-2010, 01:40 AM
I think he didn't really know when he made that phone call.

He was the only one who ''could'' after all EB was not even his legal wife (EB knew that even though AB might not have at the time) or Zahra's step mom.

Mountain_Kat
12-02-2010, 01:43 AM
EB probably told AB that Zahra had started her period... throw bed out... throw bedding out... buy new bed... blood in bathroom... "Puberty." He probably peaked in on her without EB knowing and that's when he found her gone.

When do you think he peeked in on her? Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, or 2:30 am Saturday morning?

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 01:51 AM
When do you think he peeked in on her? Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, or 2:30 am Saturday morning?

I think right before the call was made is when he peaked in there. He may have been peaking in on her the other nights as well, but it was probably staged to make it look like she was in bed.

After a divorce in 2000... I attended school and worked so much that I was home about 6 hours a day. My kids took care of me. I do understand working long hours... I would peak in on them while they where asleep in bed when I got home and then again before I left the next morning because they where still asleep.

I would like some solid info that he was involved.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 01:56 AM
He was the only one who ''could'' after all EB was not even his legal wife (EB knew that even though AB might not have at the time) or Zahra's step mom.

Are you under the assumption that you must be a legal wife/step to report a child missing?

Melanie
12-02-2010, 02:07 AM
I changed my vote to both involved in the murder and cover up. After hearing there was skin, etc., on the walls, how could he have NOT known.

hey...honey....what's this on the wall? Oh by the way, have you seen zahra?

Makes no sense to me. He has to be in on it.

MOO of course.

Mel

CarmelEyesD
12-02-2010, 02:10 AM
I kinda feel Adam is just playing 'dumb'. I don't think he is stupid, but I think he is acting like he is. You know, hardworking hubby, daddy, breadwinner-coming home at night, eating, washing up and sleeping-getting up the next day to do it again. Trusting the 'little woman' to run the house and the kids...I know nuttin"...but there is no way you could live in the same home as that woman and not know something...

Mountain_Kat
12-02-2010, 02:10 AM
I think right before the call was made is when he peaked in there. He may have been peaking in on her the other nights as well, but it was probably staged to make it look like she was in bed.

After a divorce in 2000... I attended school and worked so much that I was home about 6 hours a day. My kids took care of me. I do understand working long hours... I would peak in on them while they where asleep in bed when I got home and then again before I left the next morning because they where still asleep.

I would like some solid info that he was involved.

Well, other than the fact that his daughter was murdered and dismembered in the home he resided in, and a whole lot of clean up and painting was occurring in the home he resided in...I guess all I can offer is this:

1). Cadaver dogs hit on the "company vehicle" he drove.
2). Blood evidence was removed from the console of the "company vehicle" he drove.
3). He's given 4 different accounts of the last time he saw his daughter, saying 2:30 am Sat. morning in 911 call, Thursday in the GMA interview, and Tuesday, Thursday and Friday in the local news interview.
4). He claims in GMA interview that he arrived home around 2 pm Saturday, and was doing some work in the yard when EB came out to tell him Zahra was missing. He then goes on to say he searched the house and neighborhood before calling 911. We also know that he called his boss before calling 911. Pretty miraculous to have done all that between "around 2pm" and when the 911 call came in at 1:58 .

But I realize it's not like all these thing amount to him walking up to LE with a bloody chainsaw in his hands.

TorisMom003
12-02-2010, 02:15 AM
AB, EB and Zahra lived in a small 3 bedroom 1 bath home. In a home that small you are going to "run into" one of the other people that you live with even if you are home few hours of the day. AB also worked in lawn care, it is difficult for them to work in the dark so I have serious doubts about his working really long hours. From what I saw of the companies hours of operation I seem to recall that they are closed on Sundays.

AB knew that Zahra was not going to school since the move to Hickory. According to reports Zahra was being home schooled yet we have not heard of any home school books being found in the home. There was a sudden and drastic change in what Zahra was allowed to do once they moved into the Hickory home. Zahra was no longer allowed to play outside, go to friends houses or go to school. AB also never mentioned having a daughter to his neighbors at the Hickory home however he mentioned his dog. Neighbors have told LE and others that they had no idea that a child lived in the home as they never saw one there.

It was apparently common knowledge to neighbors (at their old addresses) and family that EB was abusing Zahra. It was said that the abuse even occured when AB was present and he did nothing to stop the abuse. Zahra had bruises visible to the school officials and in the last known photo of her. AB would have had to have been blind and deaf to not see and hear what was going on around him. AB did not remove Zahra from a situation where she was being abused, he did not call LE to report the abuse.

In all of the above Ab did nothing to protect his daughter. Even if AB did not physically hit, kill, dismember, cover-up, hide Zahra's body, etc he is still accountable for not protecting her and leaving her in a situation that led to her death. It is a parents responsibility to protect their child and if they refuse to do so and the child dies then that parent is as responsible as the person that committed the crime (IMO).

newone
12-02-2010, 02:20 AM
Are you under the assumption that you must be a legal wife/step to report a child missing?

He would be the only parent...and cops would want/need to talk to him - legally he's only parent and one responsible.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 02:33 AM
I still have not received one iota of evidence. Can't you see who wore the pants in that family. EB probably used his vehicle to move things around or she may have placed something in that truck. As for the tissue on the wall... it may not have been big enough to even see. Same goes for the bathtub. He was duped very badly and in love with her... I am not from Australia and don't know a familys social interaction. When AY posted he was a good dad that confirmed my beliefs since that is EB's EX-husband. Not many ex's say good things about the new husbands.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 02:38 AM
He would be the only parent...and cops would want/need to talk to him - legally he's only parent and one responsible.

Yes, I understand that. But you do not have to be a legal rep to report a child missing or call 911. Also, they would have want/need to talk to her as well since she was the step-mom. Maybe, even more since she was the primary caretaker. Doesn't matter if they were legally married or not.

NoeticSoul
12-02-2010, 02:41 AM
IMHO

AB is in deep dodo and he knows it. Smart move canceling the ̶̶d̶i̶s̶g̶u̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g ̶a̶t̶t̶e̶m̶p̶t ̶a̶t ̶s̶o̶l̶i̶c̶i̶t̶i̶n̶g ̶p̶i̶t̶y "memorial" tomorrow. AB is shaking in his dungarees as he very well should be for unforgivably FAILING his beautiful child who *SHOULD* have been cared for, loved, and treated like a princess...

Instead... ***** hit the fan, and I'm going to go out on a limb here... and place my bet on the fan :)

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 02:42 AM
AB, EB and Zahra lived in a small 3 bedroom 1 bath home. In a home that small you are going to "run into" one of the other people that you live with even if you are home few hours of the day. AB also worked in lawn care, it is difficult for them to work in the dark so I have serious doubts about his working really long hours. From what I saw of the companies hours of operation I seem to recall that they are closed on Sundays.

AB knew that Zahra was not going to school since the move to Hickory. According to reports Zahra was being home schooled yet we have not heard of any home school books being found in the home. There was a sudden and drastic change in what Zahra was allowed to do once they moved into the Hickory home. Zahra was no longer allowed to play outside, go to friends houses or go to school. AB also never mentioned having a daughter to his neighbors at the Hickory home however he mentioned his dog. Neighbors have told LE and others that they had no idea that a child lived in the home as they never saw one there.

It was apparently common knowledge to neighbors (at their old addresses) and family that EB was abusing Zahra. It was said that the abuse even occured when AB was present and he did nothing to stop the abuse. Zahra had bruises visible to the school officials and in the last known photo of her. AB would have had to have been blind and deaf to not see and hear what was going on around him. AB did not remove Zahra from a situation where she was being abused, he did not call LE to report the abuse.

In all of the above Ab did nothing to protect his daughter. Even if AB did not physically hit, kill, dismember, cover-up, hide Zahra's body, etc he is still accountable for not protecting her and leaving her in a situation that led to her death. It is a parents responsibility to protect their child and if they refuse to do so and the child dies then that parent is as responsible as the person that committed the crime (IMO).

He was told that Zahra was falling down alot and that is why she had the bruises. I do agree it is a parents responsibility to protect their children. I guess we will see how much he REFUSED to do so.

sorrell skye
12-02-2010, 02:58 AM
I'm following another case in which the father states he was manipulated & deceived by his wife, the step mother to his child.

In that other case, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the father when he says he was deceived by his wife.

In Zahra's case, however, based on AB's 911 call, and based on his inability to recollect when he last saw his little girl, I won't waste my benefit of doubt.

IMO, if AB had truly believed that Zahra had been kidnapped by mistake (instead of his boss's daughter) he would have expressed some detectable emotion for Zahra's safety & well-being in his 911 call.

AB's demeanor in his 911 call is the crux of the matter for me, personally. I believe he was involved in her murder & in the disposal of her remains, along with EB.

ynotdivein
12-02-2010, 03:09 AM
Just bumping one of the most lucid analyses I've seen so far:

AB, EB and Zahra lived in a small 3 bedroom 1 bath home. In a home that small you are going to "run into" one of the other people that you live with even if you are home few hours of the day. AB also worked in lawn care, it is difficult for them to work in the dark so I have serious doubts about his working really long hours. From what I saw of the companies hours of operation I seem to recall that they are closed on Sundays.

AB knew that Zahra was not going to school since the move to Hickory. According to reports Zahra was being home schooled yet we have not heard of any home school books being found in the home. There was a sudden and drastic change in what Zahra was allowed to do once they moved into the Hickory home. Zahra was no longer allowed to play outside, go to friends houses or go to school. AB also never mentioned having a daughter to his neighbors at the Hickory home however he mentioned his dog. Neighbors have told LE and others that they had no idea that a child lived in the home as they never saw one there.

It was apparently common knowledge to neighbors (at their old addresses) and family that EB was abusing Zahra. It was said that the abuse even occured when AB was present and he did nothing to stop the abuse. Zahra had bruises visible to the school officials and in the last known photo of her. AB would have had to have been blind and deaf to not see and hear what was going on around him. AB did not remove Zahra from a situation where she was being abused, he did not call LE to report the abuse.

In all of the above Ab did nothing to protect his daughter. Even if AB did not physically hit, kill, dismember, cover-up, hide Zahra's body, etc he is still accountable for not protecting her and leaving her in a situation that led to her death. It is a parents responsibility to protect their child and if they refuse to do so and the child dies then that parent is as responsible as the person that committed the crime (IMO).

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 03:11 AM
I'm following another case in which the father states he was manipulated & deceived by his wife, the step mother to his child.

In that other case, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the father when he says he was deceived by his wife.

In Zahra's case, however, based on AB's 911 call, and based on his inability to recollect when he last saw his little girl, I won't waste my benefit of doubt.

IMO, if AB had truly believed that Zahra had been kidnapped by mistake (instead of his boss's daughter) he would have expressed some detectable emotion for Zahra's safety & well-being in his 911 call.

AB's demeanor in his 911 call is the crux of the matter for me, personally. I believe he was involved in her murder & in the disposal of her remains, along with EB.

That call was odd. The previous nights fire, ransom note, hadn't seen Zahra in days, stepmom had probably been acting weird for the last week... it probably caught him by surprise. I don't think he knew what to think... they only saw her when she came out of her room. I don't know what that stepmom was telling him. He probably thought she had took off due to the puberty thing. But then added about her maybe being taken. LE seems to be standing by him for a reason.

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 03:29 AM
EB probably told AB that Zahra had started her period... throw bed out... throw bedding out... buy new bed... blood in bathroom... "Puberty." He probably peaked in on her without EB knowing and that's when he found her gone.

One BIG problem I have with that line of thinking myself, is that he would have been 'peeking in' on Zahra @ 2pm in the afternoon if your scenario were correct and he snuck and looked in on her right before making the 911 call..after admitting himself that he had not 100% seen her (whatever that means) since either the Tuesday night or Thursday night prior..depending on which of his statements (if either) one happens to believe...

IMO, I still believe that he is involved..my only question is ..to what degree? I have a feeling that we will know soon enough...jmho tho..

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 03:34 AM
Just bumping one of the most lucid analyses I've seen so far:

Have you never worked long hours? I don't seeing my dad every day growing up when he was working long hours. When this happened the days were longer and it didn't get dark quite so early. Also, this seems to be what occured that week or two... not years. I am not talking about company hours... I am talking about the hours he was reported to have worked.

EB probably convinced him they would take her away since CPS had already investigated. She had been telling him that Zahra was falling down from the medicine she was taking. That may be why she was hidden. The neighbors/family said they reported her to CPS but they never said they reported her to him.

I was abused for years and my mother didn't notice, nor did I tell her.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 03:39 AM
One BIG problem I have with that line of thinking myself, is that he would have been 'peeking in' on Zahra @ 2pm in the afternoon if your scenario were correct and he snuck and looked in on her right before making the 911 call..after admitting himself that he had not 100% seen her (whatever that means) since either the Tuesday night or Thursday night prior..depending on which of his statements (if either) one happens to believe...

IMO, I still believe that he is involved..my only question is ..to what degree? I have a feeling that we will know soon enough...jmho tho..

I agree, we will know soon enough. I just pray that little angel did have her daddies heart up till the end. I was corrected on the peaking in... EB had come running outside while he was working outside to tell him Zahra was gone. RIP - ZAHRA

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 03:44 AM
Oh I haven't see anything that tells me that LE is standing by Adam unless I have really missed something besides these search warrants. IMO LE is building their case..getting their ducks in a row..painfully slow it seems, but that's the way these things go. EB's talking..but I believe she's more worried about how to downplay her role in Zahra's murder and shift the blame to save herself from the DP...she couldn't give 2 chits about the truth unless it going to benefit her..she probably wouldn't know the truth if it slapped her upside the head!...and Adam..it appears to me anyway that Adam's just lumbering along...waiting for that knock at the door..(if LE bothers to knock) I hope he's shaking in his boots..he should be..IMHO..

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 03:47 AM
I agree, we will know soon enough. I just pray that little angel did have her daddies heart up till the end. I was corrected on the peaking in... EB had come running outside while he was working outside to tell him Zahra was gone. RIP - ZAHRA

You know what I wonder along with so many other things...IF Adam did not know what EB was doing to Zahra..why did that baby girl not feel that she could tell her daddy? Was she afraid he wouldn't believe her ..or was she afraid that he wouldn't do anything about it...Just So Incredibly SAD..:(

sorrell skye
12-02-2010, 03:53 AM
That call was odd. The previous nights fire, ransom note, hadn't seen Zahra in days, stepmom had probably been acting weird for the last week... it probably caught him by surprise. I don't think he knew what to think... they only saw her when she came out of her room. I don't know what that stepmom was telling him. He probably thought she had took off due to the puberty thing. But then added about her maybe being taken. LE seems to be standing by him for a reason.

bbm

I don't know that LE is necessarily "standing by him". I believe LE is still collecting evidence to charge & convict all the responsible parties in the murder & desecration of Zahra.

I don't believe AB thought Zahra "took off" due to a "puberty thing". He didn't mention anything of that nature in his 911 call. He stated that Zahra may have been kidnapped by mistake (instead of his boss's daughter).

And he expressed no detectable fear, worry, panic, etc., when he reported Zahra's alleged mistaken *kidnapping*.

In fact, he began his 911 call with a very casual greeting: "Hey, how are you doing?"

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 03:56 AM
Have you never worked long hours? I don't seeing my dad every day growing up when he was working long hours. When this happened the days were longer and it didn't get dark quite so early. Also, this seems to be what occured that week or two... not years. I am not talking about company hours... I am talking about the hours he was reported to have worked.

EB probably convinced him they would take her away since CPS had already investigated. She had been telling him that Zahra was falling down from the medicine she was taking. That may be why she was hidden. The neighbors/family said they reported her to CPS but they never said they reported her to him.

I was abused for years and my mother didn't notice, nor did I tell her.

bbm~
I'm so sorry you had to go through that StrayKat...having worked with abused children, I know that happens WAY too often..but it breaks my heart that people don't realize sometimes that you have to listen as much or more to what isn't said rather than what is...does that make any sense?

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 04:00 AM
There will be no good ending, no matter who is responsible. Zahra is gone..at least in body and the best that we can hope for is justice. One thing for sure though..she will NEVER be forgotten..

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 04:08 AM
You know what I wonder along with so many other things...IF Adam did not know what EB was doing to Zahra..why did that baby girl not feel that she could tell her daddy? Was she afraid he wouldn't believe her ..or was she he afraid that he wouldn't do anything about it...Just So Incredibly SAD..:(

I was abused for years and never told anybody. Neither did my brothers and sisters.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 04:15 AM
There will be no good ending, no matter who is responsible. Zahra is gone..at least in body and the best that we can hope for is justice. One thing for sure though..she will NEVER be forgotten..

Thank you, for your kind words. I do hope for justice and no she will never be forgotten. The abuse I experienced is not even comparable to what she went thru in her short life.

I want to see what CPS's conclusion was on their investigation.

sorrell skye
12-02-2010, 05:14 AM
I was abused for years and never told anybody. Neither did my brothers and sisters.

Straykat, I'm deeply saddened to hear that you were abused as a child, and that you felt you were unable to reach out for help and protection from the adults entrusted with your care. It is my prayer that you (as an adult) will be able to seek & find healing.

Zahra deserved help and protection from those who harmed her. Zahra deserved to be safe, happy, to live her life and to fulfill her dreams.

It is my prayer that those who are responsible for her pain, for her murder, for the desecration of her sacred little body, will be brought to justice for the crimes they committed against her, regardless of who they are - EB, AB, or whomever.

At the very least, AB did not protect his child, IMO. But I also believe that evidence will arise that reveals he has been guilty of so much more than failure to protect.

I believe that evidence has been/will be found that shows he was complicit in his daughter's abuse, complicit in her murder, and complicit in the cover-up of her murder & disposal of her remains.

MOO

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 05:44 AM
Straykat, I'm deeply saddened to hear that you were abused as a child, and that you felt you were unable to reach out for help and protection from the adults entrusted with your care. It is my prayer that you (as an adult) will be able to seek & find healing.

Zahra deserved help and protection from those who harmed her. Zahra deserved to be safe, happy, to live her life and to fulfill her dreams.

It is my prayer that those who are responsible for her pain, for her murder, for the desecration of her sacred little body, will be brought to justice for the crimes they committed against her, regardless of who they are - EB, AB, or whomever.

At the very least, AB did not protect his child, IMO. But I also believe that evidence will arise that reveals he has been guilty of so much more than failure to protect.

I believe that evidence has been/will be found that shows he was complicit in his daughter's abuse, complicit in her murder, and complicit in the cover-up of her murder & disposal of her remains.

MOO

Thank you, I am healing more every day and finally know it was not my fault.

Quite informative:

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/12/02/189011_news.html

How many times is he mentioned in the warrants?

I am a very proud grandma and to see this on the news would probably be like the nail in the coffin. Especially, after what had already happened. Didn't Zahra live with the grandma while in Australia?

agathawannabe
12-02-2010, 06:08 AM
You know what I wonder along with so many other things...IF Adam did not know what EB was doing to Zahra..why did that baby girl not feel that she could tell her daddy? Was she afraid he wouldn't believe her ..or was she afraid that he wouldn't do anything about it...Just So Incredibly SAD..:(

In my observations, there is an ugly but typical cycle that happens when an abused child tries to reach out. IMO, it goes something like this.

Abused child tries to tell trusted parent about the abuse. Trusted/trusting parent miscalculates his/her solution/approach just once, confronts the abusive parent with stern words - and thus the cycle begins.

Abusive parent doles out an extra beating the next day as punishment for the child having told the trusted parent. Abused child then refrains from discussing the abuse further, due to fear of the anticipated extra beating. Compounding this fear, the abuser has usually been threatening the victim all along with punishment should the victim speak out.

Having seen this too many times before, it's hard for me to pin blame on a parent who may not understand the dynamics or this cycle. (I don't know whether this situation applies to AB - so please don't construe this as a reference specifically to him.)

IMO, when an abused child reaches out - it's critical for the trusted parent to listen and do not hesitate to withdraw the child from the situation immediately - a simple scolding of the abuser can make things worse.

raisincharlie
12-02-2010, 09:14 AM
You know what I wonder along with so many other things...IF Adam did not know what EB was doing to Zahra..why did that baby girl not feel that she could tell her daddy? Was she afraid he wouldn't believe her ..or was she afraid that he wouldn't do anything about it...Just So Incredibly SAD..:(

IF Adam did not know, I find myself wondering why 3 teenage girls across the street in the trailer park did, why a teacher or two did, why the neighbors at different locations did, why AF did, or BS or BB and AY and the list goes on. For some reason AB was oblivious...no way in my book. I think the IF can be removed quite easily.

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 09:25 AM
Thank you, I am healing more every day and finally know it was not my fault.

Quite informative:

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/12/02/189011_news.html

How many times is he mentioned in the warrants?

I am a very proud grandma and to see this on the news would probably be like the nail in the coffin. Especially, after what had already happened. Didn't Zahra live with the grandma while in Australia?

Well I can tell you for certain....in the warrants that have been released to date. He is specifically mentioned in at least one. In fact that warrant is all about his cell phone records, who he was talking to, when he was talking to them, pictures/videos, texts, etc, along with GPS data and ping data from his phone. And they want to know all that for a long while going all the way back to 9/18/10 through 10/11/10.

In other words, both before and after Zahra went missing. So 3 days into the investigation something wasn't setting right with HPD about AB's story or they would not be looking into his records.

**Adding......and there are at least 2 more warrants that are still under seal.**

Linda7NJ
12-02-2010, 09:31 AM
That would be correct, sadly. Interesting how AB stayed in that house for quite some time AFTER this horror and never-a-once saw any blood on any walls, tissue stuck to the wall, bloody gloves under the bathroom sink, never took a bath/shower, oh and the clothes that Zahra went missing in.. where right there at home.. hearing aids in jewelry boxes, but he never noticed any of those things.

My own husband works all the time, he wouldn't notice anything and he certainly wouldn't be going through my jewerly box. As long as the shower looked reasonably clean, he would simply take a shower, and go to bed. He does look in on our son everynight. But sometimes he doesn't actually SEE him cause my kid loved to sleep in the crack between the wall and his queen size bed, and or completely under the covers.

I don't believe there was visable blood splatter all over the walls and the tub and shower all bloody.

I think he's in this right up to his eyeballs in all aspects of the crime. I am just saying, right now and at this point, it is possible he didn't know anything about it based on what we know.

I so hope my gut is wrong and he's actaully and factually innocent. I won't be holding my breath though

tehcloser
12-02-2010, 09:35 AM
You know waiting for justice is getting old. So many cases, the writing is on the damn wall, but because of the way the laws are written we have this mess. This child was murdered and chopped up and still no one is even charged with anything to do with it. Don't tell me the yada yada about dotting I's and crossing T's. Enough is enough already. If the laws are that screwed up, they need changing. Too many people are getting away with killing their children. BLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

LiveLaughLuv
12-02-2010, 09:37 AM
IF Adam did not know, I find myself wondering why 3 teenage girls across the street in the trailer park did, why a teacher or two did, why the neighbors at different locations did, why AF did, or BS or BB and AY and the list goes on. For some reason AB was oblivious...no way in my book. I think the IF can be removed quite easily.

I agree Raisin but I remember reading that AB was very gullible and naive. It could be his nature and it could be him not having common sense? I agree, how did he not know of the abuse Zahra was suffering at the hands of this subhuman? Didn't he see a personality change in Zahra? Or was it EF had him believing it was puberty she was going through??? Seems she was able to keep Zahra isolated right under his nose. I'd have made sure to see my child each and every day I returned from work. If I worked away from home, I'd make damn sure I spoke to my child on a nightly basis...He may be just too trusting...JMHO

AY tried to tell him he was her ex husband but didn't believe him until LE showed him the documents.

Could AB have been head over heels in love with this evil, wicked woman that he lost all common sense? It's been said EF (Elisa Fairchild now) when she broke her hand over Zahra's prosthetic leg told whoever it was with her, not to tell AB....could she have been that manipulative, that controlling, that conniving that AB just believed everything that came out of her mouth? Could his lifestyle in Oz be a different level than the US???

IDK....I too am lost for reasons why he didn't know what was going on around him...JMHO


Justice for Zahra

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 09:47 AM
I agree Raisin but I remember reading that AB was very gullible and naive. It could be his nature and it could be him not having common sense? I agree, how did he not know of the abuse Zahra was suffering at the hands of this subhuman? Didn't he see a personality change in Zahra? Or was it EF had him believing it was puberty she was going through??? Seems she was able to keep Zahra isolated right under his nose. I'd have made sure to see my child each and every day I returned from work. If I worked away from home, I'd make damn sure I spoke to my child on a nightly basis...He may be just too trusting...JMHO

AY tried to tell him he was her ex husband but didn't believe him until LE showed him the documents.

Could AB have been head over heels in love with this evil, wicked woman that he lost all common sense? It's been said EF (Elisa Fairchild now) when she broke her hand over Zahra's prosthetic leg told whoever it was with her, not to tell AB....could she have been that manipulative, that controlling, that conniving that AB just believed everything that came out of her mouth? Could his lifestyle in Oz be a different level than the US???

IDK....I too am lost for reasons why he didn't know what was going on around him...JMHO


Justice for Zahra

No offense to you at all Live...I am just jumping off of your post and this is more of a rant......

I am sick and tired of people making excuses for these monsters. If you are responsible enough to take part in creating a child, you darn well should be responsible about knowing what's going on AT ALL times in your child's life and especially when they are younger and need you THE MOST. He figured out how to make a baby so should have been responsible enough to figure out how to take care of his child.

I will not make any excuse for this man (and I use that term loosely). IMO, I don't care if he murdered her, dismembered her, had no clue or whatever. HE PUT HER IN THAT SITUATION. HE FAILED HER and for that alone even Hell is too good for him. :furious:

essies
12-02-2010, 09:48 AM
IF Adam did not know, I find myself wondering why 3 teenage girls across the street in the trailer park did, why a teacher or two did, why the neighbors at different locations did, why AF did, or BS or BB and AY and the list goes on. For some reason AB was oblivious...no way in my book. I think the IF can be removed quite easily.

ITA RC!!
One thing about getting older is that you learn that you live and die by the choices you make. And even if you don't make a choice-that's still making a decision! If AB was the kind of man who was so proud (I think it was pride not stupidity) that he refused to admit he made a gigantic mistake by marrying EB and making her his wife and Z's step-mother even when presented with the evidence by AY-then that choice (and others that followed) signed Z's fate.
Perhaps AB felt smothered by life with his mother in Australia and running to the US with his new wife was his Declaration of Independence. In reality-he was only trading one keeper for another-but he is not going to admit that.
AY and the family try to show him that his marriage isn't legal-but he's not going to admit he was bamboozled.
Zahra may have tried to reach out to him and tell him what was going on while he was at work-but how receptive did he take her stories? Easier to believe she is just being "broody" because of "puberty"? Yeah-that's easier to swallow than the truth!
Why believe the truth when the lie is what you want to believe. Just like in Caylee's case and many others on the board-circumstances are different in each case but the outcome is the same-the child becomes collateral damage!!:furious:

Linda7NJ
12-02-2010, 09:51 AM
You know what I wonder along with so many other things...IF Adam did not know what EB was doing to Zahra..why did that baby girl not feel that she could tell her daddy? Was she afraid he wouldn't believe her ..or was she afraid that he wouldn't do anything about it...Just So Incredibly SAD..:(


It's INCREDIBLY easy to get a child to keep their mouth shut about all kinds ofabuse. Even the very best involved parents, more often than not, are kept in the dark. How do you think child molesters get away with it for so long?

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 09:52 AM
You know waiting for justice is getting old. So many cases, the writing is on the damn wall, but because of the way the laws are written we have this mess. This child was murdered and chopped up and still no one is even charged with anything to do with it. Don't tell me the yada yada about dotting I's and crossing T's. Enough is enough already. If the laws are that screwed up, they need changing. Too many people are getting away with killing their children. BLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Seriously teh....

The more I think about what kind of monster it would take to stand there and chop up a child the more my blood boils. I mean WHO DOES THAT? She was dead for Christ's sake. Why couldn't they just leave her intact? What did they hope to accomplish by chopping her up? Like someone stumbling across a random arm or leg would not cause any normal human being to call the cops and start an investigation?

I just don't get it...........

Linda7NJ
12-02-2010, 09:54 AM
IF Adam did not know, I find myself wondering why 3 teenage girls across the street in the trailer park did, why a teacher or two did, why the neighbors at different locations did, why AF did, or BS or BB and AY and the list goes on. For some reason AB was oblivious...no way in my book. I think the IF can be removed quite easily.


Did any one of those people tell HIM?

TrialAddict
12-02-2010, 09:57 AM
Reasons, are not excuses

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 09:58 AM
Did any one of those people tell HIM?

It's not anyone else's responsibility to tell him what is going on with his OWN child. He should know. It's his duty and responsibility as her parent to know what is/was going on with her at all times.

tehcloser
12-02-2010, 10:05 AM
Did any one of those people tell HIM?

Tell HIM? He knew he had a daughter didn't he? We HAVE to quit making excuses for these people! Children are not disposable. They are not just our responsibility when we "feel' like it. This world is getting more screwed up by the day............:banghead:

Aedrys
12-02-2010, 10:06 AM
No offense to you at all Live...I am just jumping off of your post and this is more of a rant......

I am sick and tired of people making excuses for these monsters. If you are responsible enough to take part in creating a child, you darn well should be responsible about knowing what's going on AT ALL times in your child's life and especially when they are younger and need you THE MOST. He figured out how to make a baby so should have been responsible enough to figure out how to take care of his child.

I will not make any excuse for this man (and I use that term loosely). IMO, I don't care if he murdered her, dismembered her, had no clue or whatever. HE PUT HER IN THAT SITUATION. HE FAILED HER and for that alone even Hell is too good for him. :furious:

ITA. My husband tends to be rather clueless about things. I have to point out when I get my haircut, or if I want him to notice I did the dishes. He often forgets to tell me things that his family has told him that I need to know. He can get very much so into his video games and become oblivious to the world around him. He even forgets to let the dog in sometimes, and she stays outside for a few hours until I let her in. It's irritating, yes, but I love him anyway.

But you know what, he notices his daughter. If there is anything wrong, he addresses it. He notices if I get too much onto her and tells me to have more patience. He notices when she's not doing her homework and makes her do it. If there is a problem with her, he takes notice and does something about it. I guess what I'm saying is, if I were abusing her, or someone else was, he would notice and if it was me, probably divorce me. If it was someone else, there's no telling what he would do. He might try to deny that her abandonment issues aren't as bad as they are, but he knows she's been suffering since her mom left her at age 5. She's now seeing a child psychologist for it, and he's paying for each session. I guess what I am saying is, as clueless as he is about other things, he takes the time to notice his daughter and be a great daddy to her. He protects her and loves her no matter what. And he would never let anyone harm her, NEVER.

I am not buying that AB is just some dumb, clueless father. I am sick of hearing that. If he loved that child so much, he should have noticed her, period. He should have taken care of her, period. He should have noticed his new wife not being a great stepmother and prevented her from hurting his child, PERIOD. He should not have allowed negative and evil things to come into his daughter's life and lead her to death, PERIOD.

There is just no excuse for a parent not noticing their children, not taking care of them, and letting evil things happen to him. I don't care how clueless and dumb and gullible he is, he is a bad parent and I can't believe he didn't know ANYTHING about this. He is not innocent here even if he didn't do the murder or dismemberment - something that didn't even upset him, btw. If he loved her so much, why didn't anything upset him about her death until rape allegations that were proven false? He couldn't even have emotion for her being missing in a 911 call. None of this makes any sense for a good father that loves and takes care of their children. There is no excuse for him dragging her across the world to be abused and killed and dismembered and whatever else happened to her. NONE.

He's guilty, and there's no excuses for his epic failure to love and protect his own flesh and blood.

Linda7NJ
12-02-2010, 10:07 AM
It's not anyone else's responsibility to tell him what is going on with his OWN child. He should know. It's his duty and responsibility as her parent to know what is/was going on with her at all times.


And just how is that supposed to work if he's working all the time and his daughter doesn't tell?

I really don't like being put in the position of defending Adam at all because I feel he was involved. But I am going to defend the atmosphere.

My husband works all the time, the day to day child rearing is left up to me and always has been. I too am a stay at home mom. My husband trusts me. It would be very easy to abuse my child on a daily basis and keep my own husband in the dark. Sometimes a week or two can go by without even an opportunity for my son and his dad to talk. He's not a bad dad, he's terrific, loving and caring.

Aedrys
12-02-2010, 10:15 AM
And just how is that supposed to work if he's working all the time and his daughter doesn't tell?

I really don't like being put in the position of defending Adam at all because I feel he was involved. But I am going to defend the atmosphere.

My husband works all the time, the day to day child rearing is left up to me and always has been. I too am a stay at home mom. My husband trusts me. It would be very easy to abuse my child on a daily basis and keep my own husband in the dark. Sometimes a week or two can go by without even an opportunity for my son and his dad to talk. He's not a bad dad, he's terrific, loving and caring.

There are a lot of people who work long hours and their kids don't end up abused, killed, and dismembered, thank goodness. Ignorance just doesn't work here. He didn't notice, and the stepmother was the evil one who was supposed to take care of her and didn't. She wasn't like other moms that actually care for and love their children so that hard working dads who can't be home don't have to worry about their children's safety. He met her. He married her, and now she has killed his child. His choices directly led to Zahra's death. He gets no free pass for working long hours and not noticing. To say he's innocent because he wasn't around to notice is a slap to the face to all the other parents who work hard for long hours but have kids that are alive and healthy.

And with calling, emailing, and texting, he can talk her. Communication is such an easy thing to do in today's world with the technology out there. Basically, he can notice if he wants to. AB didn't seem to care or want to notice his daughter, which is just sick and sad. There are ways to notice and be involved in a kid's life even if a parent can't be there all of the time. It's called taking the effort to notice and love and protect our children. There just isn't any excuse for AB not noticing his daughter. He does not get off the hook for being a negligent parent.

Linda7NJ
12-02-2010, 10:40 AM
There are a lot of people who work long hours and their kids don't end up abused, killed and dismembered, thank goodness. Ignorance just doesn't work here. He didn't notice, and the stepmother was the evil one who was supposed to take care of her and didn't. She wasn't like other moms that actually care for and love their children so that hard working dads who can't be home don't have to worry about their children's safety. He met her. He married her, and now she has killed his child. His choices directly led to Zahra's death. He gets no free pass for working long hours and not noticing. To say he's innocent because he wasn't around to notice is a slap to the face to all the other parents who work hard for long hours but have kids that are alive and healthy.

And with emailing and texting, he can talk her. He can notice if he wants to. AB didn't seem to care or want to notice his daughter, which is just sick and sad. There are ways to notice and be involved in a kid's life even if a parent can't be there all of the time. It's called taking the effort to notice and love and protect our children. There just isn't any excuse for AB noticing his daughter. He does not get off the hook for being a negligent parent.

Failing to notice what exactly? A black eye? Shoot, my own son has had two, along with several broken bones, bumps and almost constant bruises. I never cause a single one. Even if asked an abused child will stick to the fabricated story for fear of what will happen. THOUSANDS of children are abused everyday by a PARENT, and the other parent often haS NO IDEA.

Sure even my own son and his dad text. So what? That doesn't mean anything or relevance of abuse would ever be shared.

I have a close friend who is also a terrific loving stay at home mom. She learned after 15 years of marriage her husband had been sexually abusing their daughter for 6 years and had begun grooming a younger one. He managed to do this while she went food shopping, or other general errands! She only found out after they had split up for something else and she had told the children she wasn't ever allowing him to come back. Only then did the older one begin disclosing. Tell me exactly what she was supposed to be noticing?

So unless a child is with you 24/7 don't ever assume something bad can't or never happen to your child at the hands of a trusted adult.

Aedrys
12-02-2010, 10:49 AM
Failing to notice what exactly? A black eye? Shoot, my own son has had two, along with several broken bones, bumps and almost constant bruises. I never cause a single one. Even if asked an abused child will stick to the fabricated story for fear of what will happen. THOUSANDS of children are abused everyday by a PARENT, and the other parent often haS NO IDEA.

Sure even my own son and his dad text. So what? That doesn't mean anything or relevance of abuse would ever be shared.

I have a close friend who is also a terrific loving stay at home mom. She learned after 15 years of marriage her husband had been sexually abusing their daughter for 6 years and had begun grooming a younger one. He managed to do this while she went food shopping, or other general errands! She only found out after they had split up for something else and she had told the children she wasn't ever allowing him to come back. Only then did the older one begin disclosing. Tell me exactly what she was supposed to be noticing?

So unless a child is with you 24/7 don't ever assume something bad can't or never happen to your child at the hands of a trusted adult.

BBM. I don't assume that. Never did I say anywhere that I assume that. But I make darn sure to look out for my stepdaughter and be aware as I can of her life and what is going on with her and so does my husband. Every good parent does that. Working long hours shouldn't negate that. And part of protecting children is judgment. He brought this evil woman into her life. He should have had better judgment in picking a stepmother for his daughter. I'm sorry, but he gets no pass from me in this case because he didn't notice. Honestly, to me, he knew about it and took part in it. But even if it comes out that he didn't know, that just doesn't cut it for me. I mean, if not noticing is a valid excuse, then a lot more people have an excuse to get away with murder. Ignorance of the law doesn't work in court. Ignorance of a person's own children shouldn't work as an advantage for them not taking caring of their children or not having knowledge that their children were hurt or killed by people they brought into their children's lives. Parents are responsible for their children whether they notice them or not.

WhyaDuck?
12-02-2010, 11:04 AM
Please bring the heat level down a few notches. Feel free to disagree, but please don't get too into it. People are allowed to disagree with you. If nothing looks like it is going to be resolved, agree to disagree and move away.

We are not going to resolve the theoretical culpability of non-abusing parents in an abusive situation here, I think.

summermood32
12-02-2010, 11:21 AM
Sharing my story so you might be able to see things in a different light. My Dad worked two jobs I barely saw my dad. My mom had migraines and health issues that kept her in bed. I was abused by older kids in my neighborhood. I'm 40 now. I do however blame my parents some for the supervision. It is hard on me because one of the persons is my brothers best friend now and every time I see him it makes me sick. I said nothing i kept inside I was ashamed I did things for candy! Where did it happen across the street in a house that was vacant in a shed. Do I have emotional problems yes has it effected me as an adult yes. What do you learn you were a child and you didnt no any better! How did I act (Warning sign) I acted out!! I was mean!! & I didnt tell my parents because I was embaresed and did not no anything different. So it could be she was ashamed to tell! and we need a spell checker on ws. So forgive me for the miss spellings.

NancyA
12-02-2010, 11:27 AM
And just how is that supposed to work if he's working all the time and his daughter doesn't tell?

I really don't like being put in the position of defending Adam at all because I feel he was involved. But I am going to defend the atmosphere.

My husband works all the time, the day to day child rearing is left up to me and always has been. I too am a stay at home mom. My husband trusts me. It would be very easy to abuse my child on a daily basis and keep my own husband in the dark. Sometimes a week or two can go by without even an opportunity for my son and his dad to talk. He's not a bad dad, he's terrific, loving and caring.

I’ll bet your husband can still tell people if they ask when was the last time he 100% saw his son. My point being this isn’t about casting aspersions on parents who have to work long or anti-social hours that cuts out time spent with their kids (and no one is disputing that often abused children don’t tell because of threats or because they are made to feel it’s their fault) BUT about AB's particular case. I have seen nothing to say AB was at all involved or even interested in anything to do with Zahra’s care, education or health - period. It has nothing to do with how many hours he worked IMO - he was just happy to abdicate his parental responsibilities to whomsoever happened to be at hand - first his mother and then EB.

But back to the hours worked,why is it so commonly believed that AB did indeed work all these long hours? Admittedly I haven't followed every link but it seems odd to me that NOWHERE have I seen anything to prove that he actually DID work all that many hours . Has anyone seen any timecards or jobsheets or ANYTHING from his employers to say he worked all that many hours? Anyone got any proof that he worked out of town overnight or was away for several days at a time? Any customers of the company he worked for come forward to say he was at their property quoting a job that Saturday morning when he ‘just got back from checking out a job’ oops I mean ‘was out working in the yard’ oops I mean ‘got up’?

Right now I'm still convinced he guilty (morally at least) of the gross negligence of his daughter and totally involved in the cover up. One thing I would like to have confirmed is where he was on that Friday evening before the fire? At the Octoberfest with EB? If there are credible witnesses that can put them at the Octoberfest without Zahra then game over for AB afaic – no one goes to the fair and leaves their kid behind alone if she’s supposedly been sick with a stomach virus, broody or not broody.

Aedrys
12-02-2010, 11:36 AM
I’ll bet your husband can still tell people if they ask when was the last time he 100% saw his son. My point being this isn’t about casting aspersions on parents who have to work long or anti-social hours that cuts out time spent with their kids (and no one is disputing that often abused children don’t tell because of threats or because they are made to feel it’s their fault) BUT about AB's particular case. I have seen nothing to say AB was at all involved or even interested in anything to do with Zahra’s care, education or health - period. It has nothing to do with how many hours he worked IMO - he was just happy to abdicate his parental responsibilities to whomsoever happened to be at hand - first his mother and then EB.

But back to the hours worked,why is it so commonly believed that AB did indeed work all these long hours? Admittedly I haven't followed every link but it seems odd to me that NOWHERE have I seen anything to prove that he actually DID work all that many hours . Has anyone seen any timecards or jobsheets or ANYTHING from his employers to say he worked all that many hours? Anyone got any proof that he worked out of town overnight or was away for several days at a time? Any customers of the company he worked for come forward to say he was at their property quoting a job that Saturday morning when he ‘just got back from checking out a job’ oops I mean ‘was out working in the yard’ oops I mean ‘got up’?

Right now I'm still convinced he guilty (morally at least) of the gross negligence of his daughter and totally involved in the cover up. One thing I would like to have confirmed is where he was on that Friday evening before the fire? At the Octoberfest with EB? If there are credible witnesses that can put them at the Octoberfest without Zahra then game over for AB afaic – no one goes to the fair and leaves their kid behind alone if she’s supposedly been sick with a stomach virus, broody or not broody.

ITA! Thank you so much for this clarification. I guess I'm so emotional about this case, I wasn't getting out properly what I really wanted to say. This post is what I am talking about! I'm so grateful for cooler heads than mine on this forum!

NancyA
12-02-2010, 11:44 AM
ITA! Thank you so much for this clarification. I guess I'm so emotional about this case, I wasn't getting out properly what I really wanted to say. This post is what I am talking about! I'm so grateful for cooler heads than mine on this forum!

O/T. Cooler head? LOL. Just be glad I didn't post yesterday after reading the rape allegations - had to leave and stay left most of the day and sit on my hands the rest of it, which in a way was good for me - made sure I didn't get myself banned for one thing :wink:

sreshowtime
12-02-2010, 11:48 AM
a thought....not excusing AB, just a thought, as to how his mind may have worked.
Maybe he didn't know how to 'parent', seeing as how it appears that KB was Z's general caretaker in Australia. He now has Zahra 24/7 upon arriving in NC, has EB 'playing' mommy full time and he let's her run with it...it is what he has become accustomed to, someone else in charge of his and Z's care. And for whatever sick , twisted, warped reason, AB fell into a nightmare once EB dug her claws in.

scmom
12-02-2010, 11:53 AM
I'll have to speculate here because I can't find the link on which I read that Adam was being paid "under the table".
If that is indeed the case I don't think there would be a written record of the hours he worked.

LiveLaughLuv
12-02-2010, 11:57 AM
BBM. I don't assume that. Never did I say anywhere that I assume that. But I make darn sure to look out for my stepdaughter and be aware as I can of her life and what is going on with her and so does my husband. Every good parent does that. Working long hours shouldn't negate that. And part of protecting children is judgment. He brought this evil woman into her life. He should have had better judgment in picking a stepmother for his daughter. I'm sorry, but he gets no pass from me in this case because he didn't notice. Honestly, to me, he knew about it and took part in it. But even if it comes out that he didn't know, that just doesn't cut it for me. I mean, if not noticing is a valid excuse, then a lot more people have an excuse to get away with murder. Ignorance of the law doesn't work in court. Ignorance of a person's own children shouldn't work as an advantage for them not taking caring of their children or not having knowledge that their children were hurt or killed by people they brought into their children's lives. Parents are responsible for their children whether they notice them or not.



But you're talking about a step parent with huge issues and FWIW, she came first. Look at what she did to her own children that one was so fearful the judge raised EF's bail...

You cannot compare US as parents to EF (formerly EB)as a parent for she only cared for herself and WHAT she could get OUT of the relationship, not what she could give to the relationship...IMO, she's not mother material, probably never was and never will be...and Zahra paid the ultimate price.JMHO

I believe this is all EF (formerly EB) who abused Zahra and it was all her who dismembered her, IMO..

I don't give excuses to AB, I'm looking for a reason as to how he could not have known what the heck was going on with Zahra and IT...JMHO


Justice for Zahra

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 11:57 AM
I'll have to speculate here because I can't find the link on which I read that Adam was being paid "under the table".
If that is indeed the case I don't think there would be a written record of the hours he worked.

Paid under the table or not....how many people do you know that cut down trees in the dark of night or run a wood chipper in the dark of night? I would think for safety reasons alone both of those would be big no-nos.

LiveLaughLuv
12-02-2010, 12:03 PM
a thought....not excusing AB, just a thought, as to how his mind may have worked.
Maybe he didn't know how to 'parent', seeing as how it appears that KB was Z's general caretaker in Australia. He now has Zahra 24/7 upon arriving in NC, has EB 'playing' mommy full time and he let's her run with it...it is what he has become accustomed to, someone else in charge of his and Z's care. And for whatever sick , twisted, warped reason, AB fell into a nightmare once EB dug her claws in.

BBM...Exactly, that's along the lines of my thoughts...

EF (FKA EB) played it well. Probably was showing she was a loving, doting, step parent and then when AB/Zahra felt comfortable enough, her mood changed, she maybe didn't want to have this "instant" family. Could be she thought AB had money for that's what it appears rules her, money, drugs and men....Lines one up before letting the other down....or keeps them all at bay from each other...she's wicked and evil, IMO and I strongly believe, this is all her...JMHO

I'm guessing this life isn't what she thought it would be, regretted it and took it out on Zahra...or believing if Zahra was out of her life, she and AB would make a better one...Who the heck knows what twisted evil this so called woman has inside...it leaked out, that's for sure...JMHO


Justice for Zahra

Mountain_Kat
12-02-2010, 12:07 PM
I can't, and I won't, make any excuses for this level of neglect. There are no acceptible excuses for turning a blind eye when someone is beating the daylights out of your child. There are no excuses for not knowing if the last time you saw your daughter alive and well was last week or last night. And there are absolutely no acceptible excuses for dismissing yourself from the responsibilities for the welfare of a child that you brought into this world. NONE.

JMO

LiveLaughLuv
12-02-2010, 12:31 PM
Not talking excuses just looking for a reason...for there is always a reason and not to be confused with an excuse...JMHO


Justice for Zahra

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 12:41 PM
I can't, and I won't, make any excuses for this level of neglect. There are no acceptible excuses for turning a blind eye when someone is beating the daylights out of your child. There are no excuses for not knowing if the last time you saw your daughter alive and well was last week or last night. And there are absolutely no acceptible excuses for dismissing yourself from the responsibilities for the welfare of a child that you brought into this world. NONE.

JMO

Me neither MK..I can not and will not give Adam a pass. I just do not believe that he is THIS naive..I know ALL about how abused children do not tell..I've been the one many times that had to take them aside to try and find out just exactly what was going on in their lives..I have sat beside a child with a black eye and a broken arm KNOWING that a parent was responsible but not able to gently coax the truth out of a child..an absolutely heartbreaking situation..and one reason I do not bash DSS, CPS..whatever it's called in ones state...because I am well aware of how hard it can be to prove it and like it or not ..I don't think anyone wants the state to be able to snatch a child out of a home because someone *thinks* there is abuse going on..just another reason the adults around HAVE to be responsible for our childrens welfare..

H@ll, I was the 'abused wife' for many years and didn't tell a soul until it was over and done because I was afraid that I would be killed..only to have my own mom ask me when I finally left and did tell.."couldn't you stay until the children are grown?"..to which I answered..no mom, not if I want to live to tell about it...so I understand that aspect...IMO a *good father* may miss some things in their childs life for a variety of reasons, but not THIS kind of systematic abuse..IF it turns out that Adam is innocent of any wrongdoing (which I'll never believe unless and until LE comes out and says so) then shame on him..not that it matters, but he gets NO pity from me..at the VERY least, he let Zahra down in the worst way possible..

vjlaw
12-02-2010, 12:43 PM
There is no reason for the detachment of AB to Zahra. If he had rallied around Zahra as much as KB does for him, this case wouldn't even exist. He chose to get on the computer that led him to EB. According to Revampz,iirc, EB didn't hide herself from the people in Australia when she was there. No one liked her, but yet AB took Zahra away from all the people who meant something to her. There is no proof of how much he worked which doesn't matter anyway. This thing people are calling a father has as many issues as EB, imo. Everything about him seems to be a closed book. I find that personality to be scary and dangerous. Everyone knew what kind of person EB is. I don't believe AB has a moral compass to decide what kind of person would make a good mother for Zahra. jmo

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 12:46 PM
There is no reason for the detachment of AB to Zahra. If he had rallied around Zahra as much as KB does for him, this case wouldn't even exist. He chose to get on the computer that led him to EB. According to Revampz,iirc, EB didn't hide herself from the people in Australia when she was there. No one liked her, but yet AB took Zahra away from all the people who meant something to her. There is no proof of how much he worked which doesn't matter anyway. This thing people are calling a father has as many issues as EB, imo. Everything about him seems to be a closed book. I find that personality to be scary and dangerous. Everyone knew what kind of person EB is. I don't believe AB has a moral compass to decide what kind of person would make a good mother for Zahra. jmo

Amen vjlaw..

westsidefox64
12-02-2010, 12:54 PM
You know waiting for justice is getting old. So many cases, the writing is on the damn wall, but because of the way the laws are written we have this mess. This child was murdered and chopped up and still no one is even charged with anything to do with it. Don't tell me the yada yada about dotting I's and crossing T's. Enough is enough already. If the laws are that screwed up, they need changing. Too many people are getting away with killing their children. BLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I understand your frustration with the legal system. I get impatient with it as well. I personally am glad they take the time to get it right. I would much rather it take along time than to have an innocent person put to death,or a guilty one set free. JMO

WhyaDuck?
12-02-2010, 12:58 PM
(Sorry - put this in the wrong thread. Thought this was lawyers-being-released thread.)

Whoops!


That thread can be found here, btw, if people are interested:

12.02.10 - Lawyers appointed when murder charges were 'imminent' are removed - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 01:07 PM
The wheels of justice turn slowly...it's maddening that's for sure, but he's not going anywhere. Don't know what it says about me, but I take a sick comfort in knowing that Adam has to be waiting and wondering when the hammer is going to drop..the not knowing has to be driving him crazy..I'm ok with that for now. LE will move when they have all their ducks in a row..they know the world is watching and waiting and I have to believe that they want to make sure they have an airtight case (that can be proven in court)..and as hard as it is to wait, we want to make sure they get it right...no do overs in a murder case..

wenwe4
12-02-2010, 01:07 PM
I just wanted to say that predators are very good at deceit, threats, emotional abuse, and manipulation. Children deal with these issues in many different ways and acting out is just one way, some children learn to excell at school and never draw attention to themselves in a negative light. Remember that statistics show that something like 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused - there are many ways of coping (or not). There are many levels of deceit and manipulation that abusers use as well and to generalize to all situations - what I am trying to say is nothing is black and white - it's all a continuum.

drivinmebonkers
12-02-2010, 01:10 PM
bbm

ITA Aedrys.

Where was the "white as a ghost & collapsed" reaction when the sickening, horrendous news came out that her poor little body had been dismembered?

I can barely follow this case, it disturbs me so much.

I posted a couple of weeks ago that I believe AB is involved both in Zahra's death, and in the heinous disposal of her remains.

I still believe that.

One of the reasons: his nonchalant 911 call to report her *missing*, where he greeted the 911 dispatcher with "Hey, how are you doing?" and how he laughed (in that same phone call) about Zahra "coming into puberty" and "brooding".

Nowhere in that 911 call did he express panic, fear, or terror as to his precious little girl's whereabouts & safety. IMO, he was cool & casual, as if he was reporting the theft of something with no more value than a rusty, broken-down lawn mower.

Another reason: why is he inconsistent about when he says he last saw his daughter?

There IS NO WAY he just found out about the rape unless everyone he keeps in his "circle" has kept it from him..Think About it!!!!!!

wenwe4
12-02-2010, 01:18 PM
I think it is abudantly clear in the 911 call that AB had completely detached from his daughter. He doesn't see her for days; she doesn't come out unless she wants something because she broody; he took 9 minutes to tell the operator that his disabled daughter was missing; he was not frantic nor was there any anxiety detected in his voice; he was not emotionally connected to this child even remotely in this call.

Then I look at the obit - where she is described by her smile, her grades, not really the qualities of who she was (IMO).

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 01:37 PM
There IS NO WAY he just found out about the rape unless everyone he keeps in his "circle" has kept it from him..Think About it!!!!!!

Do we even know for sure that a rape happened? I was under the impression that LE has said that the source for that info may not be reliable..I mean..it wouldn't surprise me sadly, but I can't shake the feeling that EB is doing nothing more than trying to deflect away from her..and AB is cowering under his mamas skirttails (MOO)..

I have been away for a few days, so am not completely up to speed, so please someone correct me if this has been confirmed..:)

eta~obviously, I agree with you that there's no way Adam was blind to EVERYTHING..no way..:furious:.

tehcloser
12-02-2010, 01:42 PM
I understand your frustration with the legal system. I get impatient with it as well. I personally am glad they take the time to get it right. I would much rather it take along time than to have an innocent person put to death,or a guilty one set free. JMO

ITA....But admittedly my mood has improved since this AM...:crazy:

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 01:51 PM
BBM. I don't assume that. Never did I say anywhere that I assume that. But I make darn sure to look out for my stepdaughter and be aware as I can of her life and what is going on with her and so does my husband. Every good parent does that. Working long hours shouldn't negate that. And part of protecting children is judgment. He brought this evil woman into her life. He should have had better judgment in picking a stepmother for his daughter. I'm sorry, but he gets no pass from me in this case because he didn't notice. Honestly, to me, he knew about it and took part in it. But even if it comes out that he didn't know, that just doesn't cut it for me. I mean, if not noticing is a valid excuse, then a lot more people have an excuse to get away with murder. Ignorance of the law doesn't work in court. Ignorance of a person's own children shouldn't work as an advantage for them not taking caring of their children or not having knowledge that their children were hurt or killed by people they brought into their children's lives. Parents are responsible for their children whether they notice them or not.

I'm not a step-mom..but gotta tell you, you are a shining example of an AWESOME one!

scmom
12-02-2010, 01:52 PM
Paid under the table or not....how many people do you know that cut down trees in the dark of night or run a wood chipper in the dark of night? I would think for safety reasons alone both of those would be big no-nos.

I do, in fact, have first-hand knowledge that the only times people would use logging/felling equipment at night is in the case of an emergency, so I absolutely agree.
Most independent loggers or tree service companies work close enough to their homes that overnight travel would be extremely rare. So while I could understand AB possibly getting home late at night in the summertime I'm reasonably confident that when days are getting shorter he would be home earlier in the evenings.

Pondering Mind
12-02-2010, 02:10 PM
I do, in fact, have first-hand knowledge that the only times people would use logging/felling equipment at night is in the case of an emergency, so I absolutely agree.
Most independent loggers or tree service companies work close enough to their homes that overnight travel would be extremely rare. So while I could understand AB possibly getting home late at night in the summertime I'm reasonably confident that when days are getting shorter he would be home earlier in the evenings.

I guess I'm just thinking that he wouldn't have had 'emergencies' on a daily basis..and if Adam was working SO much..why were they having such financial problems?..cause I'm sure he wasn't working and not getting paid..So, to not even cross your childs path when they or you are getting something to eat..going to the bathroom, etc to me is highly unlikely..at least not without wondering if something was wrong..Adam said HIMSELF that Zahra had a stomach bug..this child is only a year or so out from her last bout with cancer and a "Good Daddy" doesn't check on her at the very LEAST when it gets home..no matter what time it was?....nah..in my mind Adam is either (1) a crappy azz father (2) complicit in Zahra's death (3) so dumb, he should have never have been allowed to live on his own, much less with a child..or (4) a combination of 1 2 & 3...ALL MHO...fwiw..


ETA~I shouldn't say that Adam may have always been a crappy azz father..imo, he BECAME one for whatever reason..I really don't believe that he always was..and I guess as a parent that is one of the most mind boggling aspects of "Who IS Adam" for me...just wanted to clarify..

Lanie
12-02-2010, 02:24 PM
I'm getting a little confused here. IMO, there is quite a difference between a 'logger' and someone who works for a tree service.

Is AB a logger? I thought he worked for a tree service.

scmom
12-02-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm getting a little confused here. IMO, there is quite a difference between a 'logger' and someone who works for a tree service.

Is AB a logger? I thought he worked for a tree service.

Yes, there is a difference. Two members of my immediate family climb/fell/trim and clean up debris from same. A tree service is not a logging company. A logging company would clear tracts of lumber and take the logs to a plant that processes them into useable lumber or other by-products like paper, plywood, particle board, etc.
Sorry if this is OT, why.

WhyaDuck?
12-02-2010, 02:36 PM
I'm getting a little confused here. IMO, there is quite a difference between a 'logger' and someone who works for a tree service.

Is AB a logger? I thought he worked for a tree service.

Sorry, posters were talking about loggers (using the term logger), so I responded in kind. I will delete my post.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 02:54 PM
Had the rape allegation already been revealed before the warrants came out? If not seems like the LE should have been the one to notify him about this accusation. KB is the one that informed that he had just found out. Why do we discredit her word so quickly?

Please, someone answer me this. I have not followed this case near as much as others. Has there been any reports from neighbors/friends/family about AB not being a good father? I know EB's daughter spoke of being scared of her mom. Did she ever say anything about him?

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 03:33 PM
Had the rape allegation already been revealed before the warrants came out? If not seems like the LE should have been the one to notify him about this accusation. KB is the one that informed that he had just found out. Why do we discredit her word so quickly?

Please, someone answer me this. I have not followed this case near as much as others. Has there been any reports from neighbors/friends/family about AB not being a good father? I know EB's daughter spoke of being scared of her mom. Did she ever say anything about him?

If LE is not keeping him in some kind of loop, then that also speaks volumes to me that they must not think he's 100% innocent either. Something as horrendous as rape allegations hitting the public domain and the LE doesn't pick up the phone and give you a heads up......things that make you go hmmm.

StrayKat
12-02-2010, 03:44 PM
If LE is not keeping him in some kind of loop, then that also speaks volumes to me that they must not think he's 100% innocent either. Something as horrendous as rape allegations hitting the public domain and the LE doesn't pick up the phone and give you a heads up......things that make you go hmmm.

True. But wasn't there a mistake made that allowed the release of the warrants? The LE didn't want any of the warrants released and seem to have been surprised when they were.

Allusonz
12-02-2010, 03:48 PM
I do, in fact, have first-hand knowledge that the only times people would use logging/felling equipment at night is in the case of an emergency, so I absolutely agree.
Most independent loggers or tree service companies work close enough to their homes that overnight travel would be extremely rare. So while I could understand AB possibly getting home late at night in the summertime I'm reasonably confident that when days are getting shorter he would be home earlier in the evenings.

i am sure that might be the case for some, as for my family in this business they do alot of work out of town on a regular basis, thus long periods of time where he is away

i would think it would depend on the individual company and how diverse they are in the stuff the bid on

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 03:55 PM
True. But wasn't there a mistake made that allowed the release of the warrants? The LE didn't want any of the warrants released and seem to have been surprised when they were.

I wouldn't call it a mistake. I just think it was a delay tactic used by the DA that ended up back firing on him. The seal expired. The media filed for the release. The DA said OK let's hold a hearing on it but not till 12/13. The judge said no we can hold a hearing today (today being the day they were released) about it. The DA said he would not be prepared to argue against the release till 12/13 so the judge said sorry the ones that are expired are being released. There are still others that are sealed that they will have a hearing on the 13th.

Either way, once the judge gave the ok. The records had to be pulled, copied, etc. You can be sure that in that time if they had wanted to LE or the DA could have given AB a call and said, "hey just so you don't get hit out of left field with this....this is what's being put out today."

CuriousHousewife
12-02-2010, 03:58 PM
Just a play on the scenario...I had a stepdad when I was growing up that abused me. Because I thought that my mom would protect me no matter what, when I was about 11, I begged her to leave him because he was hurting me and I was caught WAY off guard when she actually told him that I said this and I was punished very severely, not being allowed to leave my room for an extended amount of time except to go to the restroom and eat meals. I'm a well-adjusted adult, so not looking for sympathy, but I know this happens because it happened to me. I can still feel the shock of knowing that my mother betrayed me.

And my worry is that there's a possibility that Adam is maybe a bit of a "slow" adult, which could play into his defense. I hope he isn't found to have any mental impairment, but he doesn't sound incredibly coherent, IMO.

Clue Hopper
12-02-2010, 04:00 PM
The entire case at this moment is based on who is telling the truth. EB is giving one story. AB is giving another story. No way is LE going to tell AB or EB what the other is saying or doing. They are even advised to not talk about or give any details about the case. Early on when AB was talking to reporters he often looked over at the Chief for approval before speaking. None of what the media puts out there can be taken as actual facts in the matter when talking to anyone except LE. Unless there is new evidence that shows AB is telling the truth, he is still a POI. As far as anyone letting him in on the news about the alleged incident with SY and JY I don't think anyone would. What do you do go up to the guy and say..... Hey buddy you know someone accused these guys of raping and killing your daughter, but hey LE didn't find any evidence so they dropped it......Would you? Most everything we have seen so far is focused on EB. It looks as though the LDT brought out the ransom note and things just went from there.

As we have seen from her letters she says in them maybe there was someone else all along. Yet it seems as though she was the someone with somebody or somebodies all along. So you have to take some things that are going to shock the heck out of you, and let them go to the back notes until facts come out. I know it's hard. I'm guilty of jumping the gun all the time. Just keep in mind that pretty much AB and KB are hearing things at the same time we all are.

strach304
12-02-2010, 04:11 PM
Was it really a mistake that those warrants were released? The DA didn't file in time to keep them sealed? If so then I really tend to worry about the prosecution of this case.

I wouldn't take EB's word alone that Adam is responsible for the dismemberment but there are so many other things imo that make it obvious. For Gods sake, they found human tissue on the walls in the house. He lived there.

The really big question for me now and all along is why dismemberment? Such a desperate and despicable act to perpetrate against your own daughter. Why? I've come to the conclusion that it was something so horrific the body had to be destroyed to cover up that crime. That is why the allegation of sexual assault really fit for me.

newone
12-02-2010, 04:13 PM
Just a play on the scenario...I had a stepdad when I was growing up that abused me. Because I thought that my mom would protect me no matter what, when I was about 11, I begged her to leave him because he was hurting me and I was caught WAY off guard when she actually told him that I said this and I was punished very severely, not being allowed to leave my room for an extended amount of time except to go to the restroom and eat meals. I'm a well-adjusted adult, so not looking for sympathy, but I know this happens because it happened to me. I can still feel the shock of knowing that my mother betrayed me.

And my worry is that there's a possibility that Adam is maybe a bit of a "slow" adult, which could play into his defense. I hope he isn't found to have any mental impairment, but he doesn't sound incredibly coherent, IMO.

Thanks for sharing your story and providing valuable insight...I have wondered for some time if there were two realities playing in poor Zahra's life -- a more fun loving one when dad was home and hell on earth when EB was at the helm. When those two worlds collide as it did in your case and as I suspect in Zahra's case, all hell breaks loose. :angel:

april_showers
12-02-2010, 04:27 PM
If LE is not keeping him in some kind of loop, then that also speaks volumes to me that they must not think he's 100% innocent either. Something as horrendous as rape allegations hitting the public domain and the LE doesn't pick up the phone and give you a heads up......things that make you go hmmm.

As someone who is still on the fence - but definitely leaning more towards one side now - I think this is an excellent point. This was brought up earlier when AB gave a statement along the lines of "LE hasn't told me much." But at that point, it was still fair to speculate that perhaps LE had a reason (other than AB's culpability) to play their cards close. But now that this info has gone public, I agree it speaks volumes...

Even if investigators had already discounted these horrific allegations, I would think it would be beyond courtesy to sit down a cooperating, grieving father and let him know what is about to be released.

Clue Hopper
12-02-2010, 04:31 PM
In the part of human tissue. Keep in mind that it could be as small as a pin head. I know that sounds outrageous but it is true.

Linda7NJ
12-02-2010, 04:33 PM
Was it really a mistake that those warrants were released? The DA didn't file in time to keep them sealed? If so then I really tend to worry about the prosecution of this case.

I wouldn't take EB's word alone that Adam is responsible for the dismemberment but there are so many other things imo that make it obvious. For Gods sake, they found human tissue on the walls in the house. He lived there.

The really big question for me now and all along is why dismemberment? Such a desperate and despicable act to perpetrate against your own daughter. Why? I've come to the conclusion that it was something so horrific the body had to be destroyed to cover up that crime. That is why the allegation of sexual assault really fit for me.


Yep, I felt the same way for a long time now.

agathawannabe
12-02-2010, 07:19 PM
If LE is not keeping him in some kind of loop, then that also speaks volumes to me that they must not think he's 100% innocent either. Something as horrendous as rape allegations hitting the public domain and the LE doesn't pick up the phone and give you a heads up......things that make you go hmmm.

It's also possible that LE is not keeping Adam in the investigative loop because Adam has been living with and maintaining obvious associations with numerous of EB's family members. LE won't risk having any incidental (or accidental) leaks of info to other potentially-involved (or knowledgeable) persons who may not be completely ruled out as of yet.

MOO

butwhatif?
12-02-2010, 08:04 PM
I'm still on the fence. When the search was still on, and we heard rumors of woodchippers being used, my emotions got the better of me and I was convinced AB was as guilty, if not moreso than EB.

There are a few reasons why I'm back on the fence:

1) Most importantly- there is no evidence that points directly to AB being involved in a murder or dismembering Zahra. Only claims by EB who has a long track record of lies.
(if I'm wrong please correct me)

2) Knowing that there are allegations that EB had at least one other man on the side eliminates AB as the only person with enough strength to do the unspeakable. (Not accusing anyone here- just saying there are more scenarios to look at now)


3) The 911 call - That casual greeting and lack of urgency in the call by AB -Does that really equal guilt?

Have a listen to (innocent) Kevin fox's 911 call:

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6208077


IMO, this 911 call shows that even innocent people can come across as blase in a situation we would expect them to be panicking and full of emotion.

So for me, AB's lack of emotion in the 911 tape and any interviews is now off my list of reasons to believe he is guilty.


4) Key statements by AB with contractions (BBM):

Not sure if this has been discussed yet. I know there's been a lot of discussion about micro-expressions, body language etc. But I found the use of contractions by AB very interesting. (Using contractions is indicative of honesty whereas not using contractions is indicative of deception)


911 call

DISPATCHER: OK, Do you know who this was?
ADAM BAKER: I don't know who... No... no ma'am..
DISPATCHER: Do you know any idea why they were threatening to take his daughter?
ADAM BAKER: I don't know.

Interview with AB and his mum:

Q: Now you wanted to be there? (vigil)

A: Yeah. I would've liked to have gone, but I didn't want everybody to ah, take the focus of Zahra.

Q: What do you say to them? (people yelling abuse at AB)

A: Everybody has their own opinion. Uhm, there's no way in the world that I've ever hurt my daughter.

Q: So people need to know you didn't do this?

A: No there's no way I could do that to my baby.
http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13519440


Ch 9 video:

Q:What do you think happened to Zahra?

A: I don't know.

Do you think your wife might have had some involvement in this?

A: I don't know.
http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25405526/index.html

There's more, but I'm taking up enough space here already. (will add the others to a blog entry later with some comparisons)

Now let's look at EB's lack of contractions in key statements regarding AB's involement...

In regard to her stepdaughter, Baker had little to say other than reporting that the cops "know where she is and what he has done."


"That's right what he has done," Baker wrote.

She reinforces this statement by writing it twice. Note that she doesn't say "and what he's done" or "what Adam's done".

Where does EB use a contraction?

....but Zahra isn't missing," Baker wrote.

And interestingly, she uses a contraction when saying 'We really didn't kill her".


I am not convinced either way of AB's guilt or innocence.
However, if there is one iota of collected evidence that points to AB being involved I will be down off this fence in a nano-second.

Did he mess up and put Zahra in a terrible position by moving her to the US and leaving her in the 'care' of EB?

Absolutely!! But that doesn't make him guilty of murder, or dismembering his daughter, or a cover up- just very poor judgement with terrible consequences.

Should AB have been more involved with Zahra on a day-to-day basis? Heck yeah! But I felt compassion toward ED because she was suffering PPD and was not involved in Zahras life for a period of time because of it, so I'm doing the same for AB. I believe it's possible, even probable he's got depression too, which resulted in emotional detatchment.

Could that have lead to murder/dismemberment/cover up? Possibly....which is why I'm on the fence, instead of believing in his innocence.

Could he have saved Zahra from EB once he realised things were going downhill? I really don't know. I wasn't there, so I don't know just how far reaching her hold or her lies were. But it seems that EB is very experienced in pulling or attempting to pull the wool over peoples eyes.

I don't want to be another one of those people by believing anything she has to say now, especially since it's not adding up.

JMO

Mrs G Norris
12-02-2010, 08:25 PM
I am wavering too about how / where AB was involved, but he has made enough inconsistent statements for me to believe he did know something before the 911 call was made, whether he was directly involved himself or not.

salvarenga
12-02-2010, 08:27 PM
butwhatif: Where exactly did you read or learn that, "Using contractions is indicative of honesty whereas not using contractions is indicative of deception"?

I didn't want to quote your whole post b/c of it's length.

Bia.
12-02-2010, 09:29 PM
The entire case at this moment is based on who is telling the truth. EB is giving one story. AB is giving another story. No way is LE going to tell AB or EB what the other is saying or doing. They are even advised to not talk about or give any details about the case. Early on when AB was talking to reporters he often looked over at the Chief for approval before speaking. None of what the media puts out there can be taken as actual facts in the matter when talking to anyone except LE. Unless there is new evidence that shows AB is telling the truth, he is still a POI. As far as anyone letting him in on the news about the alleged incident with SY and JY I don't think anyone would. What do you do go up to the guy and say..... Hey buddy you know someone accused these guys of raping and killing your daughter, but hey LE didn't find any evidence so they dropped it......Would you? Most everything we have seen so far is focused on EB. It looks as though the LDT brought out the ransom note and things just went from there.

As we have seen from her letters she says in them maybe there was someone else all along. Yet it seems as though she was the someone with somebody or somebodies all along. So you have to take some things that are going to shock the heck out of you, and let them go to the back notes until facts come out. I know it's hard. I'm guilty of jumping the gun all the time. Just keep in mind that pretty much AB and KB are hearing things at the same time we all are.
BBM

Thing is, EB's story has a ton of evidence that backs it up. AB's "story" is: "I had no idea my daughters body was dismembered in my home while I was living there. Nor did I even know if she was alive or dead because I last saw her 100% on Tuesday ... no wait, Thursday. Actually it was the Wednesday a week before".

EB may be a manipulative, evil woman but I have a feeling she is the only one telling the truth here.

NCMOM
12-02-2010, 10:10 PM
It's also possible that LE is not keeping Adam in the investigative loop because Adam has been living with and maintaining obvious associations with numerous of EB's family members. LE won't risk having any incidental (or accidental) leaks of info to other potentially-involved (or knowledgeable) persons who may not be completely ruled out as of yet.

MOO

I totally agree, AB doesn't have the best judgment (that is a fact people not just my opinion), the crowd he hangs with has PAGES of their own legal troubles. Why let them all know where the investigation is leading them? Don't let them know what to hide, or what dates to get your alibi in order for!

westsidefox64
12-02-2010, 10:35 PM
BBM

Thing is, EB's story has a ton of evidence that backs it up. AB's "story" is: "I had no idea my daughters body was dismembered in my home while I was living there. Nor did I even know if she was alive or dead because I last saw her 100% on Tuesday ... no wait, Thursday. Actually it was the Wednesday a week before".EB may be a manipulative, evil woman but I have a feeling she is the only one telling the truth here.

BBM
Wednesday to saturday unless Im wrong is 3 days not a week.

I still see how he might not have known what happened. There is plenty of time between wed. and sat. for her to be killed dismembered and everything disposed of without his help. If it all happened in the hours he was working or sleeping. If the rape alligations end up being true she could have had plenty of help to get everything done.

I honestly think the only truth comming from EB is what she feels she has to disclose to make her look better. JMO

Mrs G Norris
12-02-2010, 10:38 PM
^^ and to avoid the DP of course.

revampz
12-02-2010, 11:47 PM
Thank you, I am healing more every day and finally know it was not my fault.

Quite informative:

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/12/02/189011_news.html

How many times is he mentioned in the warrants?

I am a very proud grandma and to see this on the news would probably be like the nail in the coffin. Especially, after what had already happened. Didn't Zahra live with the grandma while in Australia?

Thanks Straykat for putting this article from the Townsville Bulletin.....I bought the paper yesterday as we have just had a bit of an anger problem here with Axl Rose from Guns N Roses (he turned up 2 hours late for concert and everyone is out for blood)......I went to the concert and wanted to see peoples reaction...

Anyhow this article was in it and I just about fell off my chair when I read it. I never ever expected this rape bit as well. It really put a dampner on my day. I am not beleiving it though. I still think it was some form of natural death, maybe from being hit, and AB was involved in the cover up.

This article in particular really shows the "he said, she said" situation. It says that AB went white and fell on the floor etc and both him and his mother crying and then goes on to say that EB says they dismembered her, what they wrapped her in etc. I think so far she has told the truth about the situation and cant beleive his mother is beleiving him. they found her because of what EB told them and exactly where and how they said they would.

One thing that concerns me is why are they looking into her computer???

thisjusthurtsmyheart
12-02-2010, 11:47 PM
Hello Sleuthers,

For what it is worth I think a lot of us thought that there would be some type of sexual abuse claim in this horrible tragedy. It was laden with almost all of the warning signs, and to know that not only did she endure physical and mental abuse but probably sexual abuse is appalling even more then the situation was before. I just want to throw up whenever I think about it. And then the anger sets in.

As for whether I think that these two guys SY and JY really did this to Zahra I am not sure. But contrary to popular belief I do believe that someone in her house was sexually abusing her and I think that there it was probably her wannabe father and EB if you could call either one of them "parents" I would have. I think that the money being deposited in the account was for things that were very depraved. They have to have webcam and IP signatures to figure out where they went. If they have dug far enough they can do all kinds of things with remote access. I am really starting to understand the "period" remark. Wow! If he says in a taped conversation with a 911 operator that she is brooding and starting her period then he can explain away the blood on the mattress????? He in my opinion was abusing her too! Why try to get someone out of trouble that could have raped and harmed your daughter, if you have nothing to hide as well???? Also, I dont fall for the der-da-der look that he gives like he has no idea why anyone would think that he would be depraved enough to dismember his daughter. Neither do I fall for the "all I want is to find her and take her back to OZ" (not word for word) I think that the couple hurt her regularly and this time it went to far and Z could not bounce back from the last assault. They then went into panic mode and concocted some story about a kidnapper. And a fire in the back yard. To cover up possible evidence of the crime.

I am so sorry for the rant but I am SOOOOOOOOO very angry and I really think that AB and EB both had a hand in her death as a result of abuse that she probably dealt with for some time. If this in the wrong thread please feel free to delete it or move it to another one.IMHO

NCMOM
12-02-2010, 11:59 PM
Hello Sleuthers,

For what it is worth I think a lot of us thought that there would be some type of sexual abuse claim in this horrible tragedy. It was laden with almost all of the warning signs, and to know that not only did she endure physical and mental abuse but probably sexual abuse is appalling even more then the situation was before. I just want to throw up whenever I think about it. And then the anger sets in.

As for whether I think that these two guys SY and JY really did this to Zahra I am not sure. But contrary to popular belief I do believe that someone in her house was sexually abusing her and I think that there it was probably her wannabe father and EB if you could call either one of them "parents" I would have. I think that the money being deposited in the account was for things that were very depraved. They have to have webcam and IP signatures to figure out where they went. If they have dug far enough they can do all kinds of things with remote access. I am really starting to understand the "period" remark. Wow! If he says in a taped conversation with a 911 operator that she is brooding and starting her period then he can explain away the blood on the mattress????? He in my opinion was abusing her too! Why try to get someone out of trouble that could have raped and harmed your daughter, if you have nothing to hide as well???? Also, I dont fall for the der-da-der look that he gives like he has no idea why anyone would think that he would be depraved enough to dismember his daughter. Neither do I fall for the "all I want is to find her and take her back to OZ" (not word for word) I think that the couple hurt her regularly and this time it went to far and Z could not bounce back from the last assault. They then went into panic mode and concocted some story about a kidnapper. And a fire in the back yard. To cover up possible evidence of the crime.

I am so sorry for the rant but I am SOOOOOOOOO very angry and I really think that AB and EB both had a hand in her death as a result of abuse that she probably dealt with for some time. If this in the wrong thread please feel free to delete it or move it to another one.IMHO

Unfortunately, I think you are right about everything. But, has it been verified that EB DID receive money? I know AF said so, but then that is just hearsay. I would be very curious to know if the guy in London really sent money. Cause no way was he sending it just to talk to a woman. Even a woman who was posing as her much younger and more attractive daughter.

newone
12-03-2010, 12:18 AM
So many times we suspect step fathers as the instigators of abuse and now this case highlights the need for men to be more circumspect in the women they chose to be around their children. It is possible that EB is the sole person responsible for Zahra's demise.

sorrell skye
12-03-2010, 01:35 AM
butwhatif: Where exactly did you read or learn that, "Using contractions is indicative of honesty whereas not using contractions is indicative of deception"?

I didn't want to quote your whole post b/c of it's length.

I'm interested in this, as well, and would love to read about it. It sounds fascinating.

Any links to web sites with scientific or peer-reviewed info would be greatly appreciated. I'm always interested in learning more.

Allusonz
12-03-2010, 02:03 AM
IF Adam did not know, I find myself wondering why 3 teenage girls across the street in the trailer park did, why a teacher or two did, why the neighbors at different locations did, why AF did, or BS or BB and AY and the list goes on. For some reason AB was oblivious...no way in my book. I think the IF can be removed quite easily.

i am not picking any particular post this just seemed to be the shortest

there is a course that i facilitate and it is very interesting what people think they see and what they dont think they see

one example is a motor vehicle accident, i can have a class of 10 and out of that class 2 will say one colour, 2 will say it is another colour etc

2 will say it is 2 door, 2 will say it is 4 door

2 will say it is a compact, 2 will say it is a mid size car

2 will say the light was green, 2 will say it is red

some even say that it was a stop sign and yes that has been said

2 will say they are wearing seat belts, 2 will say they were not

i guess that point i am trying to make is that peoples perceptions are very different, they mean well for the most part and truly believe what they saw or heard, but it does not necessarily mean any of them are right....

ExpectingUnicorns
12-03-2010, 09:34 AM
I want to believe Adam's most egregious act was that of neglect but after seeing the description of the home (attached) on NG show ~ I can't understand how Adam could stand in that macabre house and make his 911 call stating that he thought his daughter was merely kidnapped. If there was still enough blood visible that a blood spatter specialist was called in, it's hard for me to understand how Adam couldn't have noticed something was wrong in that very house. In spite of the fact that there was a clean-up effort there must have still been intact blood droplets for the specialist to analyze. Aside from the blood there were also bone chips in the tub and tissue remnants left behind. . . Consider, too, all of the areas that had to be cleaned: the bedroom, the bathroom and the kitchen (that we're told were dismantled). I just can't imagine anyone entering that house and not seeing (or smelling for that matter) that something very far worse than a child abduction had happened there. And I can't remember ~ did he stay there for a few days after EB was arrested? Did he bathe/shower in that bathroom? Or did he move out right away to one of EB's daughter's house?

I want him to be innocent for Zahra's sake I guess. But after reading the following attachments it is almost impossible for me.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1012/01/ng.01.html

Mountain_Kat
12-03-2010, 10:16 AM
It's interesting to note that in one of the search warrants, carpet fibers were retrieved. No, if you look at the pics of Zahra's bedroom floor, it seems pretty obvious, to me at least, that the wood on the floor is some kind of subflooring. When we first saw the pics of the house, many of us speculated that the floor in the bedroom didn't look like a finished floor, and we wondered if there had been carpetting in there. If my assumptions are correct, and they may not be, I'm inclined to believe that the carpet fibers LE took into evidence were from the floor or Zahra's bedroom. And if that's the case, where did the carpet go?

So...we have a murder that occurs in the house,dismemberment going on in the bathroom and kitchen, removal and replacement of mattresses, all kinds of painting going on, and possibly a carpet being removed. Even if we take the earliest date that AB claims to have seen Zahra (which was Tusday), then he's asking us to believe that in the course of 4 days, he never once noticed anything amiss going on in this house. No questions about all the painting? No questions about a mattress being taken out and a new one brought in? No questions about the carpet in Zahra's room suddenly disappearing (assuming my assumptions about carpet are correct)? No showers being taken by him for 4 days? No idea that anyone carried a corpse or body parts off for disposal in the "company vehicle" he drives? No idea there was blood on the console of his company vehicle, even though he obviously drove it to work on Wed, Fri and Saturday afternoon?

I'm sorry, but that is just complete and utter BS.

IMO, of course.

tlcya
12-03-2010, 10:33 AM
I want to believe Adam's most egregious act was that of neglect but after seeing the description of the home (attached) on NG show ~ I can't understand how Adam could stand in that macabre house and make his 911 call stating that he thought his daughter was merely kidnapped. If there was still enough blood visible that a blood spatter specialist was called in, it's hard for me to understand how Adam couldn't have noticed something was wrong in that very house. In spite of the fact that there was a clean-up effort there must have still been intact blood droplets for the specialist to analyze. Aside from the blood there were also bone chips in the tub and tissue remnants left behind. . . Consider, too, all of the areas that had to be cleaned: the bedroom, the bathroom and the kitchen (that we're told were dismantled). I just can't imagine anyone entering that house and not seeing (or smelling for that matter) that something very far worse than a child abduction had happened there. And I can't remember ~ did he stay there for a few days after EB was arrested? Did he bathe/shower in that bathroom? Or did he move out right away to one of EB's daughter's house?

I want him to be innocent for Zahra's sake I guess. But after reading the following attachments it is almost impossible for me.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1012/01/ng.01.html

If those blood spatters were obvious to the naked eye, I highly doubt that LE would have held off on searching the home immediately. I also do not find it reasonable that they would have left a bloody crime scene unguarded for several weeks while they got their warrant.

Hence it is only reasonable for me to conclude that the blood spatter was NOT ovbious to the naked eye and only revealed itself to LE when exposed to the ultraviolet light arrays during the comprehensive search of the home.

I cannot fault AB for blood spatter not being obvious to him when it wasn't obvious to LE until special equipment was involved.

Not saying AB isn't involved. Simply saying that for me, the blood spatter sheds no additional light on whether AB had to have known or not.

westsidefox64
12-03-2010, 10:49 AM
If those blood spatters were obvious to the naked eye, I highly doubt that LE would have held off on searching the home immediately. I also do not find it reasonable that they would have left a bloody crime scene unguarded for several weeks while they got their warrant.

Hence it is only reasonable for me to conclude that the blood spatter was NOT ovbious to the naked eye and only revealed itself to LE when exposed to the ultraviolet light arrays during the comprehensive search of the home.

I cannot fault AB for blood spatter not being obvious to him when it wasn't obvious to LE until special equipment was involved.

Not saying AB isn't involved. Simply saying that for me, the blood spatter sheds no additional light on whether AB had to have known or not.

ITA I also would like to add with all the painting going on her removing a carpet wouldnt be suspect to me either if she did in fact get rid of it. LE very well could have taken it out of the room to remove the piece of flooring and it may have been rolled up and in another room.It may also have never existed. When you see the indigent report EB listed ABs income at $600.00 a month. That is only $150.00 a week. Not alot for that kind of labor. Im thinking the house rent was part of his wage and maybe fixing it up was part of the deal.
One other thought with all the painting going on and cleaning with bleach Im not so sure that wouldnt trump any blood odor. Im also wondering about the showering. We know they took the pipes and traps but dont know anything was found in them. I take hair with soap scum out of my drains frequently and there are normally 3 showers+ taken daily the hair in the drain could have held any bone or tissue from going down. JMO

bellyup
12-03-2010, 10:51 AM
I guess I'm just thinking that he wouldn't have had 'emergencies' on a daily basis..and if Adam was working SO much..why were they having such financial problems?..cause I'm sure he wasn't working and not getting paid.

Somewhere early on the "details" of what AB was being paid were posted. It was NOT much. I think in large part he was working for his rent and a very low wage. He was likely not working legit (over the table so to speak) so there would not have been any legal guidelines on how or what he was paid. It's very possible that he even worked many many hours and wasn't paid the requisite "overtime".

bellyup
12-03-2010, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't call it a mistake. I just think it was a delay tactic used by the DA that ended up back firing on him. The seal expired. The media filed for the release. The DA said OK let's hold a hearing on it but not till 12/13. The judge said no we can hold a hearing today (today being the day they were released) about it. The DA said he would not be prepared to argue against the release till 12/13 so the judge said sorry the ones that are expired are being released. There are still others that are sealed that they will have a hearing on the 13th.

Either way, once the judge gave the ok. The records had to be pulled, copied, etc. You can be sure that in that time if they had wanted to LE or the DA could have given AB a call and said, "hey just so you don't get hit out of left field with this....this is what's being put out today."


I don't believe that LE is doing this in this case at all.... it doesn't seem that they informed ED prior to their release (based on her post at HM) and they OBVIOUSLY aren't considering her of any wrong doing. Based on her posting she seems to be in regular contact with LE and has said at other times that MSM reports were the "first time I've heard of this".

I am not taking them not informing AB of the rape allegations before hand to mean anything at all, really.

tehcloser
12-03-2010, 11:06 AM
I think BECAUSE the blood splatter and things were not visible to the naked eye shows even more how much of a clean up effort was undertaken and that to me points even more to him knowing and being guilty.

bellyup
12-03-2010, 11:09 AM
BBM

Thing is, EB's story has a ton of evidence that backs it up. AB's "story" is: "I had no idea my daughters body was dismembered in my home while I was living there. Nor did I even know if she was alive or dead because I last saw her 100% on Tuesday ... no wait, Thursday. Actually it was the Wednesday a week before".

EB may be a manipulative, evil woman but I have a feeling she is the only one telling the truth here.

I'm not sure AB said those words exactly? He said he didn't dismember her.

On the confusion with dates thing, I really cut him some slack ... a week or so ago I posted about my DH being a POI in a crime (he was completely cleared) and our reaction to it. Being interrogated is so stressful that you cannot even imagine it unless you've been in the situation. You are so scared you might say something "wrong" that will make them think you are guilty (even if you aren't). You forget things EASILY because your mind is a mess with a million questions and just PURE fear. You are questioning yourself CONSTANTLY. "Wait did that happened Tuesday... or was it Monday? It could have been Sunday." Your days blur together because you aren't eating or sleeping properly. Things you say today you realize tomorrow were not the correct thing or the way it happened.

And in our case it wasn't OUR child that was missing and the child wasn't presumed dead. AB's head was and still is a complete MESS...regardless of if he's innocent or guilty .

bellyup
12-03-2010, 11:18 AM
If there was still enough blood visible that a blood spatter specialist was called in, it's hard for me to understand how Adam couldn't have noticed something was wrong in that very house. In spite of the fact that there was a clean-up effort there must have still been intact blood droplets for the specialist to analyze. Aside from the blood there were also bone chips in the tub and tissue remnants left behind. . . Consider, too, all of the areas that had to be cleaned: the bedroom, the bathroom and the kitchen (that we're told were dismantled). I just can't imagine anyone entering that house and not seeing (or smelling for that matter) that something very far worse than a child abduction had happened there. And I can't remember ~ did he stay there for a few days after EB was arrested? Did he bathe/shower in that bathroom? Or did he move out right away to one of EB's daughter's house?


I don't think there was obvious signs (ie; blood spatter,etc.) in that house. No way no how. If that were the case LE would have been all over that house from the giddyup. They let the house sit there for AT LEAST many days but I think it was more like two weeks before they tore it apart. They also allowed AB access to the house during that time and it was NOT SECURE. Had there been any evidence easily seen by the naked eye that would NOT have happened.

Also, we don't know that bone chips and tissue WERE found in the tub. That information is purely EB's claims that those things MAY be found in the tub drains / etc.

bellyup
12-03-2010, 11:31 AM
So...we have a murder that occurs in the house,dismemberment going on in the bathroom and kitchen, removal and replacement of mattresses, all kinds of painting going on, and possibly a carpet being removed. Even if we take the earliest date that AB claims to have seen Zahra (which was Tusday), then he's asking us to believe that in the course of 4 days, he never once noticed anything amiss going on in this house. No questions about all the painting? No questions about a mattress being taken out and a new one brought in? No questions about the carpet in Zahra's room suddenly disappearing (assuming my assumptions about carpet are correct)? No showers being taken by him for 4 days? No idea that anyone carried a corpse or body parts off for disposal in the "company vehicle" he drives? No idea there was blood on the console of his company vehicle, even though he obviously drove it to work on Wed, Fri and Saturday afternoon?
IMO, of course.

I don't think we KNOW that dismemberment took place in the bathroom and kitchen, do we? Those are EBs claims but I haven't seen LE state that they have evidence that this actually happened where and how she said it did. also, I haven't seen any claims that anything was freshly painted though if it were ture that it was EB could easily say she was "decorating" Zahra's room and repainted... oh by the way her mattress was old so I tossed it . We got a new one from a friend that is much newer.

The swabs taken from the car are indicated as possible blood on the SW, have we gotten confirmation that they were blood (I might have missed it) and how large were they ?

I found blood on my wall in the laundry room the other day. I have pale yellow walls and it was a pretty good amount. Hand sized and smeared. It had been there for at least a bit because it was completely dry. I suspect it likely came from one of the dogs because of height it was at (though I still don't know which was bleeding and why) . I was PO'ed when I saw it and thought "that's never going to come out, going to have to get the touch up paint". I grabbed a rag to see what I could get off ......... and as it all wiped perfectly clean I thought "Wow. Wow." Zahra popped into my head. I was SHOCKED how easily it wiped right off.

I had more here, but it got too graphic and I couldn't post it. But I don't think there would be a lot of "spatter". Since the blood is no longer pumping and likely had been drained (gulp I can't stand that thought) clean up may have been far more easy than any of us would suspect.

ynotdivein
12-03-2010, 11:46 AM
butwhatif: Where exactly did you read or learn that, "Using contractions is indicative of honesty whereas not using contractions is indicative of deception"?

I didn't want to quote your whole post b/c of it's length.

Hi salvarenga :wave:

I'm curious about this subject too so I did some poking around. So far haven't found anything very detailed that's specific to contractions, but have located a couple of informative and IMO reliable links with good information that might be of interest.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/fbi/decep_detect_01.pdf

This one is by Joe Navarro, a 25-year FBI veteran behavioral analyst, who writes for Psychology Today. From this article: "Unfortunately, no particular nonverbal or verbal cue evinces deception.4"

However, he does state: "Research shows that guilty people often avoid using contractions.24 Instead of saying, “It wasn’t me,” liars will say, “It was not me,” to ensure the listener clearly hears the denial."

I like this article as he links thoroughly to the research support for his statements.

I also found interesting information at Mark McClish's website:

http://www.statementanalysis.com/

McClish is a former US Marshal who teaches interviewing techniques and wrote the book I Know You Are Lying. I didn't see anything there about contractions specifically but didn't spend a great deal of time looking.

Hope that helps--or at least provides some good reading material! :dance:

passionflower
12-03-2010, 11:58 AM
another thought I have, IMO..........
this house (of horrors) and ALL places this evil COUPLE
lived in...........are very small sq. foot wise.
Like the apt, the trailer and house........
sorry but you can hear someone sneeze!
No way AB never heard his daughter crying, etc.
He saw, heard and KNEW EXactly what was going on
in the last 2 years!
IMO

ExpectingUnicorns
12-03-2010, 12:00 PM
If those blood spatters were obvious to the naked eye, I highly doubt that LE would have held off on searching the home immediately. I also do not find it reasonable that they would have left a bloody crime scene unguarded for several weeks while they got their warrant.

Hence it is only reasonable for me to conclude that the blood spatter was NOT ovbious to the naked eye and only revealed itself to LE when exposed to the ultraviolet light arrays during the comprehensive search of the home.

I cannot fault AB for blood spatter not being obvious to him when it wasn't obvious to LE until special equipment was involved.

Not saying AB isn't involved. Simply saying that for me, the blood spatter sheds no additional light on whether AB had to have known or not.

That's what I was first thinking too, tl. But then I thought that the attempts at cleaning up would have smeared and degraded the original pattern of the blood spatters to the point that a specialist in that area would be useless. But since they called in the spatter specialist I thought there must have been some evidence that was still unadulterated.

But I am often wrong and the nature of what happened to Zahra in this case seems to have further clouded my befuddled brain . . .

KikiWanBaniki
12-03-2010, 12:04 PM
WRT the 'honesty-in-contradiction' theory--

I find this portion of the discussion very interesting; my 16 yo daughter and I were discussing Zahra the other day, and my daughter actually suggested that idea to me. I'd never really thought about it before!

But, as she (and some of you guys have) pointed out, it totally makes sense IMO that if you ask several different people about the same event, some degree of inconsistency is absolutely going to occur between the stories as a result of perception, if each individual or at least some, are telling the truth. Or as my daughter so eloquently put it, "Sometimes the inconsistencies are what really show the facts. People who are telling the truth aren't trying to get their stories straight, so they're gonna make more mistakes than people who are lying." Out of the mouths of babes... ;)

I'm not saying that discrepancies can't also reveal lies sometimes, I'm just agreeing with others here who've stated that sometimes it's the other way around.

ExpectingUnicorns
12-03-2010, 12:43 PM
I don't think there was obvious signs (ie; blood spatter,etc.) in that house. No way no how. If that were the case LE would have been all over that house from the giddyup. They let the house sit there for AT LEAST many days but I think it was more like two weeks before they tore it apart. They also allowed AB access to the house during that time and it was NOT SECURE. Had there been any evidence easily seen by the naked eye that would NOT have happened.

Also, we don't know that bone chips and tissue WERE found in the tub. That information is purely EB's claims that those things MAY be found in the tub drains / etc.

bellyup, I don't understand why the house wasn't immediately sealed. (But I wondered at the same fact in the Cummings and Anthony cases, too.) I think at the beginning LE's major priority must have been trying to locate Zahra and they expended all their manpower on that until they realized everything was much more serious than an abduction and that the house needed more than a quick look-through. I have no idea about how thorough their initial visit was but I imagine they were pretty distracted with the confusion of the fire, the ransom note and then the possible kidnapping. Viewing the house as a possible violent crime scene was probably (and unfortunately) not hitting their radar screen right away.

About the bone chips in the bathtub ~ I don't know exactly where that statement originated but it was referred to by Ron Martinelli in the piece that I linked. But you are right; a lot of the things EB has said are true and a lot of them aren't.

dar107
12-03-2010, 01:01 PM
another thought I have, IMO..........
this house (of horrors) and ALL places this evil COUPLE
lived in...........are very small sq. foot wise.
Like the apt, the trailer and house........
sorry but you can hear someone sneeze!
No way AB never heard his daughter crying, etc.
He saw, heard and KNEW EXactly what was going on
in the last 2 years!
IMO

Well, apparently, IMO AB sees no evil, hears no evil, speaks no evil. He just is so darn clueless and has a whole book full of excuses for it. :puke: :furious: :banghead:

PRAYING FOR JUSTICE FOR ZAHRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vjlaw
12-03-2010, 01:06 PM
Well, apparently, AB sees no evil, hears no evil, speaks no evil. He just is so darn clueless and has a whole book full of excuses for it. :puke: :furious: :banghead:

PRAYING FOR JUSTICE FOR ZAHRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup, surefire way not to be held accountable for his responsibility as a father. jmo

Allusonz
12-03-2010, 01:14 PM
Well, apparently, AB sees no evil, hears no evil, speaks no evil. He just is so darn clueless and has a whole book full of excuses for it. :puke: :furious: :banghead:

PRAYING FOR JUSTICE FOR ZAHRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am a bit confused. Are there links to excuses AB has said? or are these opinions of posters? TIA

westsidefox64
12-03-2010, 01:30 PM
I am a bit confused. Are there links to excuses AB has said? or are these opinions of posters? TIA

I hate to speak for everyone but I think its the difference in the way we each are perseaving things. JMO

dar107
12-03-2010, 01:51 PM
I am a bit confused. Are there links to excuses AB has said? or are these opinions of posters? TIA

Well I went back to edit my post so it says IMO, I could probably find some links to refer to some dumb excuses he has, IMO like hmmm, my daughter is hitting puberty and brooding and never comes out less she wants something...his excuse for not knowing when he saw her last, but I just don't have the heart for it today. Dealing with my own loss and trying to keep up with Zahra's forum has been hard and sad this week. :(

bellyup
12-03-2010, 02:11 PM
bellyup, I don't understand why the house wasn't immediately sealed. (But I wondered at the same fact in the Cummings and Anthony cases, too.) I think at the beginning LE's major priority must have been trying to locate Zahra and they expended all their manpower on that until they realized everything was much more serious than an abduction and that the house needed more than a quick look-through. I have no idea about how thorough their initial visit was but I imagine they were pretty distracted with the confusion of the fire, the ransom note and then the possible kidnapping. Viewing the house as a possible violent crime scene was probably (and unfortunately) not hitting their radar screen right away.


The problem IMO with that theory is that the announced it was a homicide only three DAYS after she was reported missing (Oct 12th) . On Oct 15th they entered the house with AB and IIRC spent several hours in the house (this is when they removed the mattress).

AFTER this event the house still was not secure and had been released. AB was free to go there if he so chose (and he did at least once to get belongings).

There is NO WAY there was evidence that was clearly visable and I'm sure LE was looking at that point for ANY sign whatsoever (remember, they had already declared it a homicide investigation) . LE would not have allowed the home to remain open and given AB access to it had they found a single shred that led them to believe she was murdered or dismembered there.

Do we have confirmation FROM LE that any of the items removed (ie; dry wall, drains,etc.) even HAVE any evidence of dismemberment from the home? I know it's been noted that a blood spatter expert was called in, but could that have been because they were NOT finding what EB had told them was there ? ? ?

BASICALLY right now the only evidence we have is that Zahra *WAS* indeed dismembered and that EB had obvious knowledge of it.
Everything else as to where or when it happened or who did it or what caused her death.... Is ALL coming from EB and I'm not trusting much of what she says at all. Yes, she did lead them to the body (parts). However, I don't think this means she's being truthful.... it was to HER benefit to do so. She's not going to do anything out of the goodness of her *cough* heart. Of course she's going to go with a story that benefits HER and makes her guilty of the lesser crimes.

As far as what the police removed ... (ie the walls, floor, piping) I'm not sure they did that because they actually found or saw something. They did it based on EB's claims that they WOULD find something in those areas. (if anyone is following the Skleton boys case - that father has claimed he killed the boys, he left them at a cabin, no wait he left just dumped them off somewhere, no wait I didn't kill them at all).

I do not question for a minute that LE has gotten some (if not all) of the test results back on the drains, walls, etc. Only they know if what EB said would be there is actually there. I am concerned about this part probably more than anything else right now.

If it's NOT there .... it makes sense that they are stumbling for charges. EB wasn't truthful. They have no evidence of the dismemberment at the house. They do not know who did it , when or where. They have no cause of death, no murder weapon, and no clear motive. They NEED more information to press further charges.

If it *IS* there ... they have proof of the dismemberment at the very least. Likely they can determine WHEN it took place. It's possible that the reported latex gloves may even point to WHO did this. It's UNLIKELY that they will ever determine a COD or find a murder weapon. This brings them MUCH closer to making some charges...........
and I'm sick when I say I don't think we aren't seeing it head that way.

Mountain_Kat
12-03-2010, 02:24 PM
I don't think we KNOW that dismemberment took place in the bathroom and kitchen, do we? Those are EBs claims but I haven't seen LE state that they have evidence that this actually happened where and how she said it did. also, I haven't seen any claims that anything was freshly painted though if it were ture that it was EB could easily say she was "decorating" Zahra's room and repainted... oh by the way her mattress was old so I tossed it . We got a new one from a friend that is much newer.

The swabs taken from the car are indicated as possible blood on the SW, have we gotten confirmation that they were blood (I might have missed it) and how large were they ?

I found blood on my wall in the laundry room the other day. I have pale yellow walls and it was a pretty good amount. Hand sized and smeared. It had been there for at least a bit because it was completely dry. I suspect it likely came from one of the dogs because of height it was at (though I still don't know which was bleeding and why) . I was PO'ed when I saw it and thought "that's never going to come out, going to have to get the touch up paint". I grabbed a rag to see what I could get off ......... and as it all wiped perfectly clean I thought "Wow. Wow." Zahra popped into my head. I was SHOCKED how easily it wiped right off.

I had more here, but it got too graphic and I couldn't post it. But I don't think there would be a lot of "spatter". Since the blood is no longer pumping and likely had been drained (gulp I can't stand that thought) clean up may have been far more easy than any of us would suspect.

BBM

WE don't have evidence of anything. LE does, we don't. So we are working on logic and whatever information we are given. I am basing my assumptions on pictures taken from inside the home, and the evidence seized in the search warrants. 1+1=2 to me. If others don't agree with my math, that's fine by me.

So...do I have "evidence" that Zahra was dismembered in the bathroom? No, I don't. What I do have are claims to that effect by EB, pictures of the bathroom after LE were done with it, and search warrants that clearly state that LE removed the drain traps from both the bathroom and kitchen. I also have my own intelligence which tells me that the logical place to dismember someone would be in a bath tub. So, in my mind...1 + 1 = 2.

I also have no "evidence" that rooms were painted recently. But LE seized 6(?, forget exact number) cans of paint from the home. I can also tell from pictures of the bathroom, that LE went to alot of trouble to peel away the latex paint covering the tiles there. I assume they didn't do that just because they needed to occupy themselves with some busy work. So, my logic tells me that, at the very least, the bathroom was recently painted.

As for the mattress and boxsprings that were removed, possible carpet being removed from her bedroom, possible paint job in there also...I doubt EB would be able to explain that away to AB. Where does she tell him his daughter is while she's doing all that? Sleeping on bare subflooring in a freshly painted room, thick with fumes, while suffering a "stomache bug" and being "broody" from her period?

Can you explain away a few of these things? Maybe. But taken as a whole, my personal opinion is that the ONLY way Adam Baker didn't know what was going on in that house was if, in fact, he didn't live in that house.

All just my math and MOO, and probably the last comment I'm going to make with respect to what Adam Baker did and didn't know, because my mind is very clearly made up on this point.

Clue Hopper
12-03-2010, 02:25 PM
I'm in need of feedback please. Something just came to mind when I was taking my sheets out of the washer. There was a comforter and pillows found in the Camry. Could that be the supposed comforter that Elisa said held remains? or could that be Adam's dog house?

I remember when I was younger my neighbor had a camper on the back of his truck he had His name's Dog house written on both sides of it. I remember asking why? He told me that when his wife was mad he had best leave. So he would go sleep in the camper. Sometimes it was for a few days.

Mountain_Kat
12-03-2010, 02:29 PM
I'm in need of feedback please. Something just came to mind when I was taking my sheets out of the washer. There was a comforter and pillows found in the Camry. Could that be the supposed comforter that Elisa said held remains? or could that be Adam's dog house?

I remember when I was younger my neighbor had a camper on the back of his truck he had His name's Dog house written on both sides of it. I remember asking why? He told me that when his wife was mad he had best leave. So he would go sleep in the camper. Sometimes it was for a few days.

BBM

No, IIRC, pillows and comforter were retrieved from AB "company vehicle". The comforter EB claims was used in the disposal was, according to her, placed in a dumpster somewhere.

Clue Hopper
12-03-2010, 02:31 PM
BBM

No, IIRC, those were also retrieved from AB "company vehicle".

So sleeping in the so called dog house could be plausible. (I'm not saying this is truth.)

I also wonder if it was the said comforter.

Ugh! this case. I can't believe I'm doing laundry and thinking these things.

ExpectingUnicorns
12-03-2010, 02:33 PM
The problem IMO with that theory is that the announced it was a homicide only three DAYS after she was reported missing (Oct 12th) . On Oct 15th they entered the house with AB and IIRC spent several hours in the house (this is when they removed the mattress).

AFTER this event the house still was not secure and had been released. AB was free to go there if he so chose (and he did at least once to get belongings).

There is NO WAY there was evidence that was clearly visable and I'm sure LE was looking at that point for ANY sign whatsoever (remember, they had already declared it a homicide investigation) . LE would not have allowed the home to remain open and given AB access to it had they found a single shred that led them to believe she was murdered or dismembered there.

Do we have confirmation FROM LE that any of the items removed (ie; dry wall, drains,etc.) even HAVE any evidence of dismemberment from the home? I know it's been noted that a blood spatter expert was called in, but could that have been because they were NOT finding what EB had told them was there ? ? ?

BASICALLY right now the only evidence we have is that Zahra *WAS* indeed dismembered and that EB had obvious knowledge of it.
Everything else as to where or when it happened or who did it or what caused her death.... Is ALL coming from EB and I'm not trusting much of what she says at all. Yes, she did lead them to the body (parts). However, I don't think this means she's being truthful.... it was to HER benefit to do so. She's not going to do anything out of the goodness of her *cough* heart. Of course she's going to go with a story that benefits HER and makes her guilty of the lesser crimes.

As far as what the police removed ... (ie the walls, floor, piping) I'm not sure they did that because they actually found or saw something. They did it based on EB's claims that they WOULD find something in those areas. (if anyone is following the Skleton boys case - that father has claimed he killed the boys, he left them at a cabin, no wait he left just dumped them off somewhere, no wait I didn't kill them at all).

I do not question for a minute that LE has gotten some (if not all) of the test results back on the drains, walls, etc. Only they know if what EB said would be there is actually there. I am concerned about this part probably more than anything else right now.

If it's NOT there .... it makes sense that they are stumbling for charges. EB wasn't truthful. They have no evidence of the dismemberment at the house. They do not know who did it , when or where. They have no cause of death, no murder weapon, and no clear motive. They NEED more information to press further charges.

If it *IS* there ... they have proof of the dismemberment at the very least. Likely they can determine WHEN it took place. It's possible that the reported latex gloves may even point to WHO did this. It's UNLIKELY that they will ever determine a COD or find a murder weapon. This brings them MUCH closer to making some charges...........
and I'm sick when I say I don't think we aren't seeing it head that way.

Good points ~ all, bellyup! I defer to your logic. And thanks too, as I do want to still be able to think that Zahra's own father didn't betray her.

Mountain_Kat
12-03-2010, 02:35 PM
So sleeping in the so called dog house could be plausible. (I'm not saying this is truth.)

I also wonder if it was the said comforter.

Ugh! this case. I can't believe I'm doing laundry and thinking these things.

Could be. I've never been able to get a handle on why pillows, comforter, 2 toothbrushes and 3 passports were found in the "company work vehicle". I have wondered if AB and EB might have slept in the truck due to everything that was going on in the house, maybe they were going to try to skip town with the passports. But I honestly have no answers for that.

thisjusthurtsmyheart
12-03-2010, 06:26 PM
Unfortunately, I think you are right about everything. But, has it been verified that EB DID receive money? I know AF said so, but then that is just hearsay. I would be very curious to know if the guy in London really sent money. Cause no way was he sending it just to talk to a woman. Even a woman who was posing as her much younger and more attractive daughter.

I believe that it was said at one point in time that LE was going to suppeona bank statements that were at a bank inside of Wal-Mart. I dont know if they ever found anything but I do know that they were looking into monetary transactions. Also, I couldn't figure out the Wal-Mart thing but then I thought about the Wal-Mart close to me has a Wood Forest Bank inside of it and they give second chance checking. I know that that is for the people (no offense) that can not open a regular checking account on their own. It happens sometimes to good people. I understand that but with all the charges that she incurred from the bad check charges she wasnt going to pass through tele-check. So it makes sense that she would go through that facility. If that is what it is that brought her there in the first place. I do not know exactly what they found in those records but I am assuming that it had to do with the 10k that EB was supposed to have gotten from the man that shall not be named. I have also attached a link to the MSM that I found it on.

Sorry it took so long to get back on this...work can be a real bear. ;)

http://www.wcnc.com/news/zahra-baker/Cousin-Visits-Elisa-Baker-in-Jail-106915208.html

thisjusthurtsmyheart
12-03-2010, 07:03 PM
The problem IMO with that theory is that the announced it was a homicide only three DAYS after she was reported missing (Oct 12th) . On Oct 15th they entered the house with AB and IIRC spent several hours in the house (this is when they removed the mattress).

AFTER this event the house still was not secure and had been released. AB was free to go there if he so chose (and he did at least once to get belongings).

There is NO WAY there was evidence that was clearly visable and I'm sure LE was looking at that point for ANY sign whatsoever (remember, they had already declared it a homicide investigation) . LE would not have allowed the home to remain open and given AB access to it had they found a single shred that led them to believe she was murdered or dismembered there.

Do we have confirmation FROM LE that any of the items removed (ie; dry wall, drains,etc.) even HAVE any evidence of dismemberment from the home? I know it's been noted that a blood spatter expert was called in, but could that have been because they were NOT finding what EB had told them was there ? ? ?

BASICALLY right now the only evidence we have is that Zahra *WAS* indeed dismembered and that EB had obvious knowledge of it.
Everything else as to where or when it happened or who did it or what caused her death.... Is ALL coming from EB and I'm not trusting much of what she says at all. Yes, she did lead them to the body (parts). However, I don't think this means she's being truthful.... it was to HER benefit to do so. She's not going to do anything out of the goodness of her *cough* heart. Of course she's going to go with a story that benefits HER and makes her guilty of the lesser crimes.

As far as what the police removed ... (ie the walls, floor, piping) I'm not sure they did that because they actually found or saw something. They did it based on EB's claims that they WOULD find something in those areas. (if anyone is following the Skleton boys case - that father has claimed he killed the boys, he left them at a cabin, no wait he left just dumped them off somewhere, no wait I didn't kill them at all).

I do not question for a minute that LE has gotten some (if not all) of the test results back on the drains, walls, etc. Only they know if what EB said would be there is actually there. I am concerned about this part probably more than anything else right now.

If it's NOT there .... it makes sense that they are stumbling for charges. EB wasn't truthful. They have no evidence of the dismemberment at the house. They do not know who did it , when or where. They have no cause of death, no murder weapon, and no clear motive. They NEED more information to press further charges.

If it *IS* there ... they have proof of the dismemberment at the very least. Likely they can determine WHEN it took place. It's possible that the reported latex gloves may even point to WHO did this. It's UNLIKELY that they will ever determine a COD or find a murder weapon. This brings them MUCH closer to making some charges...........
and I'm sick when I say I don't think we aren't seeing it head that way.

I have read the search warrants and it appears to me that LE has great reason to believe that there was blood evidence. I cannot say that they called a blood spatter analyst in for no reason. In my opinion they probably had no idea when they put luminol all over the house it was going to light up like a christmas tree. At that point they probably knew that the forensics in this case were gonna be difficult and they were gonna need the help of an expert in dealing with and having certifications in that area or field. Which to me means that there was such an enormous amount of blood loss or transfer that they did not know which way or where it came from. I am going to link the page for you to look at the warrant. In one of the warrants it is revealed that they took 33 blood swabs and numerous tissue scrapings. Along with many other pieces of evidence. It also states in the warrants that they removed tissue and hair from drains. They also got the gloves from the house and trash bags too. So suffice it to say it is safe to assume that the dismemberment did in fact happen in that house (of horrors).

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/zahra_baker_case/633403/warrants-reveal-possible-sexual-assault-in-baker-case (this is the entire article, scroll all the way down for the pages of warrants and it is the blood spatter is #13)

I am not by any means saying that I at all change my mind about EB but I do think that in every lie there is those truths also. So with that being said even if she told some truths that eventually led to the info that LE wanted to know then they will definitely go easier on her then they will AB if he just stood around with that freakishly zoned out look on his face...faking the entire "I love her so much routine". She will most likely get a plea deal and he will most likely get more time then she will for rolling over on her "would be" husband. I can bet that she has probably already got a plea deal in the works which may be why they let go of LD her appointed lawyer. I am almost sure of it.

In my personal opinion, if they can't prove what the manner of death is then they cannot prove who may have had anything to do with it. I hate to say this but my fear is that the only thing that we will know is the manner of cover up and concealment. We may never know how this beautiful child died. That is wrong on so many levels and that means that there may never be charges brought against the perpetrator/s of this horrendous crime. But at least someone will stand trial the desecration of a corpse and concealment of a crime. There has to be some jail time for that right?

Some not all is my personal opinion....but I think its good anyway!:blushing:

lonetraveler
12-03-2010, 07:12 PM
Hello Sleuthers,

For what it is worth I think a lot of us thought that there would be some type of sexual abuse claim in this horrible tragedy. It was laden with almost all of the warning signs, and to know that not only did she endure physical and mental abuse but probably sexual abuse is appalling even more then the situation was before. I just want to throw up whenever I think about it. And then the anger sets in.

As for whether I think that these two guys SY and JY really did this to Zahra I am not sure. But contrary to popular belief I do believe that someone in her house was sexually abusing her and I think that there it was probably her wannabe father and EB if you could call either one of them "parents" I would have. I think that the money being deposited in the account was for things that were very depraved. They have to have webcam and IP signatures to figure out where they went. If they have dug far enough they can do all kinds of things with remote access. I am really starting to understand the "period" remark. Wow! If he says in a taped conversation with a 911 operator that she is brooding and starting her period then he can explain away the blood on the mattress????? He in my opinion was abusing her too! Why try to get someone out of trouble that could have raped and harmed your daughter, if you have nothing to hide as well???? Also, I dont fall for the der-da-der look that he gives like he has no idea why anyone would think that he would be depraved enough to dismember his daughter. Neither do I fall for the "all I want is to find her and take her back to OZ" (not word for word) I think that the couple hurt her regularly and this time it went to far and Z could not bounce back from the last assault. They then went into panic mode and concocted some story about a kidnapper. And a fire in the back yard. To cover up possible evidence of the crime.

I am so sorry for the rant but I am SOOOOOOOOO very angry and I really think that AB and EB both had a hand in her death as a result of abuse that she probably dealt with for some time. If this in the wrong thread please feel free to delete it or move it to another one.IMHO

Hi Thisjusthurtsmyheart! Great post and your post summarizes my thoughts exactly. I didn't get to say Welcome earlier but I do now, Welcome!!!!!

thisjusthurtsmyheart
12-03-2010, 07:27 PM
Hi Thisjusthurtsmyheart! Great post and your post summarizes my thoughts exactly. I didn't get to say Welcome earlier but I do now, Welcome!!!!!

Thank you Lonetraveler and I love it here. So many intelligent people sharing ideas and making connections all for the same goal. I do not know where I would be without WS. Especially with this case. It is by far the most heinous act that I have ever read about. I just thank the heavens that no one can ever hurt her again. And again thanx for the welcome i appreciate it alot.

Much Respect :angel:

newone
12-03-2010, 10:14 PM
At some point, I hope that AB's immigration status is answered by MSM because I suspect that's part of the reason he's remained ''below our radar'' - a good dad would find the means to get his daughter back to Oz for treatment but he may not have had the $$ to do so. EB knew that if he left the country he might now get back in. He may rightfully be fully ashamed of not being able to provide for his daughter.

passionflower
12-04-2010, 11:49 AM
A thought that bothers me, I hate to be grose, but how many hours would it take to
murder, dismember, dispose of a body, clean up , paint, remove mattress, get a new one, set a fire, use 2 cars.........all by yourself???
As a woman, I think you would need help.
ALSO, how long was AB gone from home? or was he right there???
Also not using the shower? etc. IIRC EB said there would still be blood, bones etc in bath tub drain.

westsidefox64
12-04-2010, 12:12 PM
I read somewhere? that the blood splatter expert could tell how tall,what position the person doing the dismemberment was. My question is if the blood and tissue were wiped and painted over would the luminol still show where it was originally? I wish I knew more about this. TIA

nomoresorrow
12-04-2010, 12:28 PM
A thought that bothers me, I hate to be grose, but how many hours would it take to
murder, dismember, dispose of a body, clean up , paint, remove mattress, get a new one, set a fire, use 2 cars.........all by yourself???
As a woman, I think you would need help.
ALSO, how long was AB gone from home? or was he right there???
Also not using the shower? etc. IIRC EB said there would still be blood, bones etc in bath tub drain.

I've wondered all of the above myself passion, inparticular the dismembering part. One thing that I commonly came across when googling for any info related to length of time it takes to dismember... was that dismembering a frozen corpse was commonly done as apparently it creates less mess (hate to say it that way...). With that said, I'm wondering if LE will be able to tell, from the tissue they've collected, if Zahra's body was frozen pre-dismemberment. That in itself may help to pinpoint further time of death AND substantiate, or not, Adam's timeline/story of events. Just thinking outloud here...

MOO ~

thisjusthurtsmyheart
12-04-2010, 05:22 PM
Westside and Nomoresorrow,

I have had extensive research and have got my degree in CJ and graduated with honors. So i feel comfortable enough to answer these questions. So here goes.

In the case of the luminol, yes it will show up even after being painted and or cleaned with household cleaners including but not limited to bleach. I have heard of luminol still showing up signs years after something had happened. Which helps a lot in cold cases. So yes even through paint it will still show.

In the case of the body of poor little Zahra being frozen, I do not know if I would even think that this was the case due to all of the blood evidence that was found in her room and throughout the house. But if by chance she had been frozen then they would have been able to tell due to to tissue degradation before the decomposition process started to occur. There will be a different state that it would be in due to the freezing and dethawing of the skin. Also in personal opinion it would have taken less time to do if the body was frozen but then I don't think the mess would have been quite as ad as it was.

I am so sorry for having to talk about our dear Zahra in this manner, it seems so unreal still. :sick:

Much :beats: and Respect


I read somewhere? that the blood splatter expert could tell how tall,what position the person doing the dismemberment was. My question is if the blood and tissue were wiped and painted over would the luminol still show where it was originally? I wish I knew more about this. TIA

nomoresorrow
12-04-2010, 10:03 PM
Westside and Nomoresorrow,

I have had extensive research and have got my degree in CJ and graduated with honors. So i feel comfortable enough to answer these questions. So here goes.

In the case of the luminol, yes it will show up even after being painted and or cleaned with household cleaners including but not limited to bleach. I have heard of luminol still showing up signs years after something had happened. Which helps a lot in cold cases. So yes even through paint it will still show.

In the case of the body of poor little Zahra being frozen, I do not know if I would even think that this was the case due to all of the blood evidence that was found in her room and throughout the house. But if by chance she had been frozen then they would have been able to tell due to to tissue degradation before the decomposition process started to occur. There will be a different state that it would be in due to the freezing and dethawing of the skin. Also in personal opinion it would have taken less time to do if the body was frozen but then I don't think the mess would have been quite as ad as it was.

I am so sorry for having to talk about our dear Zahra in this manner, it seems so unreal still. :sick:

Much :beats: and Respect

Thank you thisjusthurtsmyheart for your insight. I know these are beyond difficult things to discuss - I just hope that LE can find the whole truth thru the evidence they've collected, every individual involved can and will be charged, and justice will be served for precious Zahra.

MOO~

angelswatchoverthem
12-04-2010, 11:21 PM
I voted that i am not convinced of AB's involvement in this horrific crime. I just think about Kyron Horman's case, and how out of touch Kaine seemed in all that was going on in his household,and it seems he was in that home a lot of the time, and also worked from home. The woman he married with all her scheming and conniving, never ever expecting anything like that to happen to his precious child, that is now missing for 6 mnths. He was "clueless" too.
Also being an Aussie myself, well, Aussies are a different breed of people. Did AB work, i gather he did from what i have read. He may have been oblivious and out of touch with his child and as to what was going on with her. The stepmother in this case was also a known abuser, and AB had no history of this as far as i know. Maybe Zahra was threatened by this stepmother if she said anything to her dad, and was probably really scared of her if she was abusing Zahra.
Like i said Aussies are a different culture, and i don't think we have a track record of really horrific crimes against children, as seems to be almost an epedemic here in the USA.
Is there any validity to Zahra being sexually abused?. If that was the case then maybe the stepmother had her in a really vile situation to make money from exploiting Zahra, unbeknown to AB. What if she was sold off for sex, and it was those perps that murdered her, and then got rid of her because Zahra threatened to tell on them, and if the SM was in on this she would have been in the gun also for doing this to Zahra, and they would of all been facing serious jail time. JMO.

TorisMom003
12-05-2010, 01:35 AM
One major point that AB has to explain........if he and EB went to Octoberfest (as has been reported by locals) and Zahra was not with them, where did he think she was? We know that Zahra was not seen by any neighbors at the Hickory home so none of them could have babysat her. We know that EB had severed ties with her family members and had not talked to them since before the move to the Hickory home so none of them could have babysat her. I can't see AB (if he is as loving of a father as he and his mother claim he is) leaving Zahra home at night alone especially when they were going to something that a kid would love. This occured the night before Zahra was reported missing by AB, so where was she?