Satiated

[Toth]

There are a variety of theories about this case, some of them so absurd as to be humorus.

I don't think we need deal with the really far out stuff such as Patsy killed JonBenet when she suddenly realized JonBenet was going to grow up to be too short for the Miss America Pageant.

I don't think we deal with the 'kiled for the insurance money' since there was no insurance policy and the Ramseys have spent a small fortune on lawyers and investigators.

But for those of you who think this was a murder by a pedophile, what about saitey?

Has he not killed since?
Has he killed in a different manner?
Why was there 'minimal' sexual activity compared to what is often done to such vicitms both before and after death?
If the garotte was fashioned so as to prolong the death, did this particular crime fully satisfy his blood lust?

[Sabrina]

Yes, I find it very odd that out killer has not killed again. Not once in almost 8 years.

Nor is his DNA on file in Codis. So he never committed an unsolved crime, nor was he ever charged for one. That is, if we believe Lou Smit when he has it that the killer's DNA was under her nails, and that she was a "pedophile's dream."

[twilight]

Brace yourself folks, I hear a bus approaching...

[Ivy]

OMG, Twi, I hear one too--and it has ASIA OR BUST painted on the sides!

Run, Sum Yung Gai! Quit your job at the underpants factory and run for your life!

[Nehemiah]

What does anyone know about the gardener/landscaper? I was rereading thru PMPT last night and my memory was jogged about the statement that he had no one to confirm his alibi after 12:30 Christmas night. Is it safe to conclude that he has been cleared due to his blood and hair samples? He certainly could have had access and knowledge of when the R's were not at home. I am not trying to accuse him...just wondering.

After seeing the house for myself last weekend, I am convinced that it was someone who definitely knew the property and not a random street person or pedophile who went in out of the rain and read up on the family while hanging out in an empty house.

[Toth]

I too think there was atleast some minimal research done on the family before he entered the home, even if it was only a casual reading of the recent newspaper article though if the red-lined article from the Boulder business publication was marked by the intruder then there would have had to have been far more extensive research into the family prior to the crime.

[Ivy]

The intruder would also know every nuance of Patsy's handwriting in order to mimic it in the ransom note.

Toth, have you viewed the documents showing Patsy's exemplars next to the handwriting in the ransom note? My guess is that you haven't, and that you don't want to.

[nellicat]

Sorry, Toth, but I think that one theory that can be discarded is the theory of a person torturing and murdering JB "for fun" and writing an epic ransom note just to torment the parents.

The condition of JB's body: wrapped carefully, her favorite nightgown nearby, laid as if to sleep. This is NOT the modus operandi of someone who is torturing the girl for fun or in order to torment her parents.

We've seen plenty of murder victims posed obscenely in order to shock and disturb the person who finds them. If a person is so sadistic as to torture a little girl for "fun" or to torment her parents, why take such gentle care of her body after she is dead? Where's the "fun" in that?

[Casshew]

Originally posted by Sabrina
Yes, I find it very odd that out killer has not killed again. Not once in almost 8 years.



Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldberg's killer has not killed again either :rolleyes:

Cass...

[Correy]

Saitey? Isn't that mame's dog? Has she stopped barking yet?

[Toth]

Originally posted by Ivy
The intruder would also know every nuance of Patsy's handwriting in order to mimic it in the ransom note. That is extremely important information!! Since one person at Access Graphics had writing that was even more similar to the Ransom Note than Patsy's writing, do you think the intruder also knew every nuace of his handwriting. ?

[Ivy]

That is total bs, Toth...nothing but Ramsey Team spin. Patsy's and only Patsy's handwriting matches the writing in the note.

My guess was right. You haven't seen Patsy' exemplars, have you? And you have no intention of looking at them, do you?

[Toth]

Originally posted by Ivy
Patsy's and only Patsy's handwriting matches the writing in the note. Wow. I didn't know that. Do you think those who testified to the contrary while under oath will be indicted for perjury?

[Nehemiah]

Whose writing at AG, Toth?

[Toltec]

Let me guess Toth...the killer is the secretary who told John that he would have to pay for his kids trip to Disneyworld.

[Ivy]

Toth, who testified under oath that the writing in the note wasn't Patsy's but someone else's--a person's at AG? You gotta be kidding. Think about it. How could anyone testify under oath to such a thing unless they themselves saw the not-Patsy person pen the note and leave it on the stairs? Funny, Toth.

I'll ask again: You haven't taken a look at Patsy's exemplars, have you?

Edited to add: Pray tell...in what courtroom scenario did this person supposedly testify? Was it to the grand jury? If so, how did you hear about it?

[Toth]

No deposition. It was that others were closer to the note than Patsy. It was not that those others necessarily wrote the note.

[MIBRO]

... who testified under oath that the writing in the note wasn't Patsy's but someone else's ...?

Four experts were hired by the Boulder police
- Chet Ubowski of the CBI
- Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner
- Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner
- Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service

and two were hired by the Ramseys.
- Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner
- Howard Rile

None of the six consulted experts identified Patsy Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. Rather, the experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note. The experts described the chance of Patsy Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low."

The two experts hired by the Ramseys both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Patsy Ramsey did not write the Note. Conclusions were based on the "numerous significant dissimilarities" between the individual characteristcs of Patsy's handprinting and of that used in the Ransom Note.

In addition to Patsy Ramsey, there were other individuals "under suspicion" who had their handwriting analyzed and who were not eliminated as the possible author of the Ransom Note. Lloyd Cunningham could not eliminate Chris Wolf himself as the author. Wolf's own girlfriend testified that she was "struck by how the handwriting in the note resembled his own handwriting" and believes that he is the note's author.

[MIBRO]

... who testified under oath that the writing in the note wasn't Patsy's but someone else's ...?


Boulder Police Department and Boulder Countyu DA's Office consulted experts who examined original exemplars and the original Ransom Note said:

Chet Ubowski (CBI) concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note.

Leonard Specking (private QDE) concluded that differences between the writing of Patsy Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Patsy as the author of the Ransom Note.

Edwin Alford (private QDE) stated the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.

Richard Dusick (U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing in the Ransom Note."


Experts hired by the Ramseys (who also examined the original Ransom Note and the original exemplars from Patsy Ramsey) said:

Lloyd Cunningham (private QDE) hired by the defendants concluded there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many siginificant differences between the handwritings.

Howard Rile concluded that Patsy Ramsey was between "probably not" and "elimination" on a scale of whether she wrote the Ransom Note.

[MIBRO]

Brian Scott (the gardener) gave blood, hair, saliva, and handwriting samples.

[MIBRO]

Gary Merriman (Access Graphics) was asked for SEVEN handwriting samples. Do you think there were some "similarities" to the RN?

[MIBRO]

CNN Chat transcript Apr 14, 2000, Author Steve Thomas tells his story. "What was interesting is that we found no history of pathology or evidence to indicate that John Ramsey had any untoward relationship or discipline with his children. I found Patsy Ramsey to be a complex person on many levels but there had been no reported history of any abuse in the house."

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Toth
There are a variety of theories about this case, some of them so absurd as to be humorus.


WHAT DO THE BOULDER KIDS SAY THESE DAYS???


I don't think we need deal with the really far out stuff such as Patsy killed JonBenet when she suddenly realized JonBenet was going to grow up to be too short for the Miss America Pageant.

I don't think we deal with the 'kiled for the insurance money' since there was no insurance policy and the Ramseys have spent a small fortune on lawyers and investigators.

But for those of you who think this was a murder by a pedophile, what about saitey?

Has he not killed since?
Has he killed in a different manner?
Why was there 'minimal' sexual activity compared to what is often done to such vicitms both before and after death?
If the garotte was fashioned so as to prolong the death, did this particular crime fully satisfy his blood lust?

But for those of you who think this was a murder by a pedophile, what about saitey?

Has he not killed since?
Has he killed in a different manner?
Why was there 'minimal' sexual activity compared to what is often done to such vicitms both before and after death?
If the garotte was fashioned so as to prolong the death, did this particular crime fully satisfy his blood lust?

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: Has he not killed since?
Has he killed in a different manner?
Why was there 'minimal' sexual activity compared to what is often done to such vicitms both before and after death?
If the garotte was fashioned so as to prolong the death, did this particular crime fully satisfy his blood lust?

Ned: she has not killed since because, this was an accidental murder in nature, covered due to sexual abuse. If this was an intruder I would have expected with this sort of high profile crime and the risk taken, the intruder would have struck again. There was minimal sexual activity because the child was not molested by a pedophile intruder. The garrote was fashioned to simulate a sexual act, none took place. It was simply a ruse.

Sabrina: Nor is his DNA on file in Codis. So he never committed an unsolved crime, nor was he ever charged for one. That is, if we believe Lou Smit when he has it that the killer's DNA was under her nails, and that she was a "pedophile's dream."

Ned: The unidentifiable DNA was never run through Codis. It can only be used to exclude a suspect, it cannot identify one.

[Nedthan Johns]

Nellicat: The condition of JB's body: wrapped carefully, her favorite nightgown nearby, laid as if to sleep. This is NOT the modus operandi of someone who is torturing the girl for fun or in order to torment her parents

Ned: There you go Nellicat and nice to meet ya, I see you are using your brain. Exactly. The crime is what it seems. A child covered with her favorite blanket which was in the dryer, how or why would an intruder know or bother getting it out, and her favorite nightgown beside her. Tape on mouth was purely for show, rope didn't break hybrid bone in neck, and child wasn't penetrated. Broken paint brush used to "simulate" sex. Child hidden in farthest part of the basement. Yet Toth suggests this intruder was all in it for the fun? Then why cover the body? Why tape her mouth? Why molest her with a paint brush instead of raping her? Why hide the body?

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: No deposition. It was that others were closer to the note than Patsy. It was not that those others necessarily wrote the note.

Ned: ahhh but the question is Toth did those other have matching fibers found on the child and on the tape and on the rope and in the paint tote like Patsy did? Had those others had any agenda against the Ramsey's or JOhn in particular? It's the totality of the crime that points towards Patsy and I am banking one day they may be able to lift something off that garrote to tell us who tied it.

[Nedthan Johns]

Mibro: Lloyd Cunningham could not eliminate Chris Wolf himself as the author. Wolf's own girlfriend testified that she was "struck by how the handwriting in the note resembled his own handwriting" and believes that he is the note's author.

Ned: Chris Wolf was ruled out. Patsy has not been. ONe doesn't need to be a hand writing expert to determine wether or not Patsy is the possibly author, I happen to think she is the most likely person thus far.

[Nedthan Johns]

....................any good investigator could NOT IMO rule Pasty, John NOR Burke out as possible suspects. There is just NO conclusive evidence that ANY intruder entered or exited the home that night.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Ivy
The intruder would also know every nuance of Patsy's handwriting in order to mimic it in the ransom note.

Toth, have you viewed the documents showing Patsy's exemplars next to the handwriting in the ransom note? My guess is that you haven't, and that you don't want to.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Ivy
The intruder would also know every nuance of Patsy's handwriting in order to mimic it in the ransom note.

Toth, have you viewed the documents showing Patsy's exemplars next to the handwriting in the ransom note? My guess is that you haven't, and that you don't want to. \\

Ditto!

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Blazeboy3

[MIBRO]

Ned: The unidentifiable DNA was never run through Codis. It can only be used to exclude a suspect, it cannot identify one.


Would you be good enough to explain this statement? WHY was the BPD submitting suspects' DNA for comparison, if the DNA can only exclude? Do you not think they hoped for (and still hope for) a match? If I understand your statement correctly, you are saying that if they had a sample of the killer's DNA, that the only result they could get is exclusion, not a match. Does that make sense?

[MIBRO]

Toth, have you viewed the documents showing Patsy's exemplars next to the handwriting in the ransom note? My guess is that you haven't, and that you don't want to.
Ditto!

We do know there were six QDE experts who DID see Patsy's exemplars next to the handwriting in the ransom note. They ALL either eliminated her or rated her comparison very low.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
....................any good investigator could NOT IMO rule Pasty, John NOR Burke out as possible suspects. There is just NO conclusive evidence that ANY intruder entered or exited the home that night.


Excellent posting and reminds me of the fact that that the R's have no reason/explanation/excuse/justification for their actions/whereabouts at certain/timings...asleep??? Get Real?

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by MIBRO
Ned: The unidentifiable DNA was never run through Codis. It can only be used to exclude a suspect, it cannot identify one.

Would you be good enough to explain this statement? WHY was the BPD submitting suspects' DNA for comparison, if the DNA can only exclude? Do you not think they hoped for (and still hope for) a match? If I understand your statement correctly, you are saying that if they had a sample of the killer's DNA, that the only result they could get is exclusion, not a match. Does that make sense?

http://www.orchidcellmark.com/about/labs.asp
FYI for what it's worth?


Although many of these achievements are already known to members of the legal and scientific communities, highly publicized criminal cases at OC Germantown have propelled the science of DNA testing in general, and Orchid Cellmark in particular, into public awareness. These include the O.J. Simpson case, the JonBenet Ramsey case, and the Unabomber case.

[MIBRO]

Ned: Chris Wolf was ruled out. Patsy has not been. ONe doesn't need to be a hand writing expert to determine wether or not Patsy is the possibly author, I happen to think she is the most likely person thus far.

Ned, it is great to go through life with great self-confidence, but, unless you are a QDE and compared the original ransom note with the original exemplars, I think it would be wise for us all to accept the QD examiners conclusions over yours. JMO

Again, if I understand your statement correctly, you have said Patsy POSSIBLY wrote the note and she is your BEST bet. How many of the other suspects' handwriting exemplars have you seen for you to put Patsy at the top of your list? Have you seen the original ransom note? Do you know what you are looking for in order to reach this conclusion?

[MIBRO]

Thank you, Blazeboy (I think). Yes, there have been many cases resolved through DNA identification and that was the exact point I was trying to make in connection with Ned's statement to the contrary. The purpose of DNA comparison is to either exclude or include, not just to exclude.

[MIBRO]

Yes, John, Patsy, and Burke are still suspects, along with a list as long as your arm. There has been more exculpatory evidence for many of these suspects including the three Ramseys than inculpatory. The new investigating team is sifting through all of it again and has made a clear statement: The Ramseys have already been throroughly investigated and there is convincing evidence of an intruder. Did you miss that statement? If you did, I can get the exact quotes.

[MIBRO]

Ned: ... did those other have matching fibers found on the child and on the tape and on the rope and in the paint tote like Patsy did?

Was there a report stating there were fibers on the child, the tape, and the rope that were "Patsy's"? Or, are you referring to hearsay statements made that they were supposedly CONSISTENT with something Patsy MAY have worn? Was it a whole year that went by before the BPD got around to requesting the Ramsey clothing? Wasn't it some "red" fibers in the tote and on the tape and some dark fibers and some brown/tan fibers on the child? Was there a report somewhere saying they were ALL Patsy's?

[Nedthan Johns]

Mibro: Ned: The unidentifiable DNA was never run through Codis. It can only be used to exclude a suspect, it cannot identify one.


Would you be good enough to explain this statement? WHY was the BPD submitting suspects' DNA for comparison, if the DNA can only exclude?

Ned: Because of the degration of the DNA not enough markers were identifiable to make it possible to run a match using the given system in which we code possible suspects, meaning it cannot be used to identify a suspect through these methods. A suspect has to be identified, and then comparied to what markers exsist, in order to confirm a match. Still, they may not be able to 100% positively identify suspect as such but could certainly rule them out. The DNA is degraded as such that it could have been on JB's body far longer than the night of the 25th.

Do you not think they hoped for (and still hope for) a match? If I understand your statement correctly, you are saying that if they had a sample of the killer's DNA, that the only result they could get is exclusion, not a match. Does that make sense?

Ned: Exactly.

[Nedthan Johns]

Mibro: Ned, it is great to go through life with great self-confidence, but, unless you are a QDE and compared the original ransom note with the original exemplars, I think it would be wise for us all to accept the QD examiners conclusions over yours. JMO

Ned: LOL many experts can be wrong Mibro. Labeling one as such does not necessairly make them one. Case and point the idiot Bug expert in the Van Dam case. Money, politics and ego plays a large part in the findings of these so called experts. How many Doctors have made mis digonsis in medical cases? Experts are wrong all the time. I call Ned an expert in common knowledge and a hell of a good investigator. Although I can't be certain, who can? I am about 98-99% certain Patsy Ramsey was the autor of the ransom note From reading both books watching the interviews with Patsy and analyzing the ransom note to her writing and language verbage, she is the most likely match. Again, because of the totality of the crime and evidence that links Patsy. I certainly can't swallow that any intruder took the time to write such nonsense.

Mibro: Again, if I understand your statement correctly, you have said Patsy POSSIBLY wrote the note and she is your BEST bet. How many of the other suspects' handwriting exemplars have you seen for you to put Patsy at the top of your list? Have you seen the original ransom note? Do you know what you are looking for in order to reach this conclusion

Ned: Don't need to look at anyone else's because there is NO conclusive evidence that an intruder entered the home that night. The ransom note surely would be the LAST thing to suggest this. Had there been some sort of conclusive evidence that someone else other than the Ramsey's were there that night, I would have second looks at this note. Too many other pieces of evidence point towards Patsy. But take all that away and look at the note for what it is and comare it to Patsy, I say she's good for it

[Nedthan Johns]

added............. The ransom note did exactly opposite of the effect Patsy wanted it to have. It pointed towards her instead of away from her. The practise note that starts MR and Mrs Ramsey clearly tells me that the person writing the note, chose to start over and EXCLUDE herself from being named, now what is that Mirbro. Tell me what reason an intruder would re-start a ransom note and only address Mr. Ramsey?

[Nedthan Johns]

Mibro: The purpose of DNA comparison is to either exclude or include, not just to exclude.

Ned: Yes, the system in which Sabrina was referring to is the DNA database currently in place set up by the government to identify possible suspects by coding their DNA profile. The DNA in the Ramsey case CANNOT be run through this system because not enough DNA markers are present to make a sucessful match.
The DNA was degraded as such that only I believe 6 markers were present, if I remember correctly. Barnhill was a close match to all the markers however was rulled out because he had an alabi. A suspect in this case is needed therefore to test against what markers they have identified

[Nedthan Johns]

Mibro: Yes, John, Patsy, and Burke are still suspects, along with a list as long as your arm.

Ned: Funny, my arm isn't that long. ON whose long list Mibro? Not mine. and certainly not the BPD.

Mibro: There has been more exculpatory evidence for many of these suspects including the three Ramseys than inculpatory. The new investigating team is sifting through all of it again and has made a clear statement: The Ramseys have already been throroughly investigated and there is convincing evidence of an intruder. Did you miss that statement? If you did, I can get the exact quotes.

Ned: Please do. What NEW investigators? What convincing evidence? Please don't tell me the stun gun. Other then that suggestion there is nothing. A few scattered pop corns and leaves don't do it for me. An old print in dried up mold which could have been left years prior, doesn't either.

[Nedthan Johns]

Mibro: Was there a report stating there were fibers on the child, the tape, and the rope that were "Patsy's"? Or, are you referring to hearsay statements made that they were supposedly CONSISTENT with something Patsy MAY have worn? Was it a whole year that went by before the BPD got around to requesting the Ramsey clothing? Wasn't it some "red" fibers in the tote and on the tape and some dark fibers and some brown/tan fibers on the child? Was there a report somewhere saying they were ALL Patsy's?

Ned: Consistent with certainly. Course they claim Patsy may have not turned over the exact sweater she was wearing that evening. Interesting isn't it? Fact is, they were consistent. The Ramsey's had plenty of time to destroy evidence. The facts in this case Mirbo, paint a clear picture that the Ramsey's and ONLY the Ramsey's thus far possibly had something to do with their daughters murder, and should be on the TOP of any good detectives list of suspects. They have done nothing to help remove themselves from that list and have shown little if any concern to catch this pedophile murderer that took their child away from them. To me, their actions spell out their guilt.

[Nedthan Johns]

I didn't want to start a seperate thread and give her the glory of doing so, so will post this here on this new thread..

But was reading over yonder and it looks like ***** is getting glory out of her "leaving the building" even being contacted by reporters which she is now tearing to shreds because they didn't quote her word for word. And Lin Wood letter to me about made me sick.

Look ******** no one gives a CHIT why you are leaving and can only hope you take your swamp of a forum with you. I have a feeling this is all for a little attention. If she was really leaving why respond to each and every post regarding why she is really going? Who gives, go bake cake, walk your dog, interact with your kids, anything but continue your one way conversation and deceiptful posts to those who contradict your beliefs. Good riddance ----hahah cute guy r i d d a n c e!

[Shylock]

Originally posted by MIBRO
Conclusions were based on the "numerous significant dissimilarities" between the individual characteristcs of Patsy's handprinting and of that used in the Ransom Note. Is that an oxymoron, or what?...LOL
How can you NOT have "significant dissimilarities" when the writer of the ransom note was trying to disguise her handwriting!
I think the document we have here and have all seen, proves Patsy write the note and anyone would have to be legally blind not to conclude as much.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by MIBRO
We do know there were six QDE experts who DID see Patsy's exemplars next to the handwriting in the ransom note. They ALL either eliminated her or rated her comparison very low. Gee, you forgot to mention Hoffman's expert who claims that nobody in the world except Patsy Ramsey could have written that note. Hmmmmm, now what was his name?....LOL

The best thing to do is look at the examples yourself. Then, if you think Patsy DIDN'T write the note, buy some ocean-front property in Ohio!

[Barbara]

Originally posted by Toth
No deposition. It was that others were closer to the note than Patsy.

Like Who? And says who?


Here we go again: I won't hold my breath waiting for the non answer Toth likes to give:

But since Margoo is here also, maybe she knows the answer to the questions.

As always, when asking for verification/clarification on these "statements" put forth by Toth, I don't expect much of a response.

Actually Toth, your theory of this "pedophile intruder" is the most insane of all.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Mibro: The purpose of DNA comparison is to either exclude or include, not just to exclude.

Ned: Yes, the system in which Sabrina was referring to is the DNA database currently in place set up by the government to identify possible suspects by coding their DNA profile. The DNA in the Ramsey case CANNOT be run through this system because not enough DNA markers are present to make a sucessful match.
The DNA was degraded as such that only I believe 6 markers were present, if I remember correctly. Barnhill was a close match to all the markers however was rulled out because he had an alabi. A suspect in this case is needed therefore to test against what markers they have identified

As much as I would like to believe the R's theory in DOI that the DNA is going to solve this case, I'm too attached to the Ransom Note "smoking gun" theory--it's the ONLY piece of evidence that CANNOT CHANGE with time...!!!

[Toltec]

EVEN JOHN RAMSEY COULD NOT EXCLUDE PATSY!

NE: page 285

JR: My first instinct is, it was a man. Because of some of the similarities apparently, in Patsy's handwriting, I wondered if it was a woman.

page 327

JR:...but the fact that, okay, maybe there is a few similarities in (Patsy's) handwriting, that's about it.

[MIBRO]

SIX - SIX - SIX experts all AGREED Patsy did not write that note and you still think YOUR opinion exceeds the value of theirs?

LOL -


DNA comparison does not stop at the number of markers, Ned. Statistical values are placed on the match against population probabilities. Give me a break. YOUR information is OLD. YOUR information is selective and taken out of context and spun into nonsense. ANYONE with ANY sense at all knows NONE of the Rameys were involved in the death of their daughter. TRY to get into 2003, okay. You are stuck in the spring of 1997 for heaven's sake.

LOL

[Ivy]

No expert with even half a brain could examine Patsy's handwriting exemplars and honestly say she didn't write the ransom note. Check the exemplars yourself, Mibro, and then come back and tell us with a straight face that Patsy didn't write the note.

[Ivy]

Melissa Weber, chief molecular biologist at CellMark Laboratories, said that the extra markers in the DNA found in JonBenet's underpants and under her fingernails could very well be shadow bands ("stutter"), a false positive for foreign DNA that often occurs when degraded DNA is amplified. Weber also said that when two sources of DNA are mixed together, no one could be excluded as the donor. When Lou Smit said that John and Burke Ramsey had been excluded, he was wrong. What he should have said is that although their DNA didn't match the samples, a match to anyone was still technologically impossible.

The markers in the two samples of "foreign" DNA (one from the panties and one from the fingernails) didn't match each other, so I guess there must have been two intruders. Either that, or the "foreign" DNA is a false positive resulting from the amplification process.

Please, Mibro, give us an update on new advances in DNA technology that have ruled out the possibilty that the "foreign" DNA was nothing more than a false positive resulting from the PCR amplification process...and when you've done that, please describe the process by which John and Burke have been excluded as the donors.

[Toth]

Originally posted by Toltec
EVEN JOHN RAMSEY COULD NOT EXCLUDE PATSY!
Nonsense. He merely commented that since the hadwriting was similar to Patsy's handwriting he thought that it might be a woman who wrote the note. That has nothing to do with it actually being Patsy or with his ever having thought that for even one fleeting moment.

Now to get somewhat back towards the point of the thread: I'm not looking for other crimes that necessarily had notes involved. Just reasons why one might be 'satisfied' after the JonBenet killing and not go on to "bigger and better things".

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Toth
Now to get somewhat back towards the point of the thread: I'm not looking for other crimes that necessarily had notes involved. Just reasons why one might be 'satisfied' after the JonBenet killing and not go on to "bigger and better things".

Mission kill, Toth. If, as I believe may be the case, Patsy killed JonBenet to spare her "cancer and the death of a child," as Patsy so memorably explained in her more vulnerable moments, and additionally hoped to use JonBenet's death as a way to drive John away from his obsession with the Access Graphics business (which Patsy had help build and remained entirely unthanked and unappreciated for) and if the intruder scenario was constructed to give both her son Burke and her mother Nedra, as well as legal authorities in general, a reason to investigate away from her direction and in the direction of a wild goose chase, then you have to admit that all those goals were accomplished. There would be no need to go on to "bigger and better things," because in a Patsy-did-it scenario, there is nothing bigger and better to accomplish.

[Toth]

Originally posted by why_nutt
There would be no need to go on to "bigger and better things," because in a Patsy-did-it scenario, there is nothing bigger and better to accomplish. Please don't waste my time with this "Patsy-did-it" stuff. I would like this thread to focus on an intruder who killed JBR but then 'stopped'.
Is he no longer a pedophile or was he never a pedophile?
Is he no longer leaving notes, but still killing?
Is he no longer leaving victims in the home or even having them found?
What would make a supposed pedophile 'take a vacation for so many years'?

[Ivy]

Toth, despite testimonials from fellow members of the small faction of professional trappers he'd recently joined, who on the side were all full-blown pedophile ransom kidnappers who'd never been caught or even heard of, the Intruder couldn't decide if pedophilia was all it was cracked up to be, or if he had what it took to become a pedophile, even if it would make him one of the guys. He also wasn't sold on the idea of kidnapping, much less the snatching of a kid, much less leaving ridiculously long ransom letters behind in which he would even have to mimic the victim's mother's handwriting, for crying out loud. Though a trapper himself, he began to question why he joined this particular small furring faction and wondered what had gotten into him to let some guy he'd chummed up with at "Electric Boogaloo '96," the stun gun/pineapple lovers' fest-o-rama hosted by Trappers R Us and held annually in a secret abandoned lawn flamingo warehouse in Swet, South Dakota, talk him into it. After all, his "thing" was murder by strangulation, dammit, and bashing in heads, (just ask his old friends...oops, beings as how he "thinged" them, I guess they can't answer) not all that weird pedophilia, kidnapping and writing ransom notes crap. But he was determined to prove himself, so he donned a full body condom so as not to leave any trace evidence, and well, you know what happened. The caper was a disaster. It should be mentioned that he caught a lot of flack when his fellow faction members learned he'd not only offed the victim but had left the body behind, and to top it off, that he had come close to outting their small furrin' faction in the ransom letter, just so he could have fun playing with words. Not only did he catch flack, he caught a bullet in the back of the head, and yes, you are right. He is now on vacation. Permanently.

[twilight]

"furrin faction" LOLOLOLOLOLOL...........hehe...harharharharhar.... !!!

[sissi]

I'm tired and cranky tonight, spent the week re-reading almost all
of the "Jonbenet" books,and can honestly conclude one thing,that everyone will hate me for. Steve Thomas IMO is sociopathic.
How dare he use the information he received from Judith Phillips as the basis for so much of the crap he stated. How dare he say the child was papoosed ,wrapped in a blanket??? He has no idea,he never saw this!
If you re-read his book,he makes a better case for a few others ,something a real detective would have noticed.

Down to the rind..I have conceded the contents of her small intestine was pineapple mixed with green iced cookies,however, "down to the rind" is going a bit far,in a case,
where the contents of this intestine have never been listed
ANYWHERE under items sent to cbi or anywhere else. Lou Smit,was given this information,as was everyone,but was it on
the "word" of the BPD,or did it exist?
I'm sorry,I have this picture,of a he-boy sitting in that electric chair,with an audience,being so alpha-male,and it turned me off,as I know men like this. (thank heavens not too well)

JMO IMO

[Sabrina]

"Ned: Yes, the system in which Sabrina was referring to is the DNA database currently in place set up by the government to identify possible suspects by coding their DNA profile. The DNA in the Ramsey case CANNOT be run through this system because not enough DNA markers are present to make a sucessful match.
The DNA was degraded as such that only I believe 6 markers were present"

Ned- Lin Wood announced a few months ago that with recent technology thet were able to pull out 9 markers and could enter it into Codis but the BPD "NEVER" did this, he was hoping Keenan would. I called the SDPD crime lab and spoke to the supervisor. He said with 9 markers they could compare it to the CODIS banks. The Ca bank is just like doing a google search he said. They fax everything to the FBI and it takes them up to a week to get the results back. He said they are sending lots of samples in to the databanks, even convicted car jackers.

So I am assuming this was done- since it's no big deal.

I also got a lesson on "degraded" DNA-- I am sure you have too I am convinced the DNA was from some 6 year old playmate from several days before and they are never going to match it unless he commits a sex crime when he grows up!

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Toth
There are a variety of theories about this case, some of them so absurd as to be humorus.

I don't think we need deal with the really far out stuff such as Patsy killed JonBenet when she suddenly realized JonBenet was going to grow up to be too short for the Miss America Pageant.

I don't think we deal with the 'kiled for the insurance money' since there was no insurance policy and the Ramseys have spent a small fortune on lawyers and investigators.

But for those of you who think this was a murder by a pedophile, what about saitey?

Has he not killed since?
Has he killed in a different manner?
Why was there 'minimal' sexual activity compared to what is often done to such vicitms both before and after death?
If the garotte was fashioned so as to prolong the death, did this particular crime fully satisfy his blood lust?

//////......where's thje URL/info/facts that insurance wasn't a motive/gift for trauma???...!!!...I'm sure the R's has insurance on JonBenet thru John's work/business...don't ya think that it was an abundant amount???...!!!


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/columnists/harriet_brackey/6015298.htm
And McBride notes that in the past 20 years, far more resources have been made available to parents of missing children. For example, her organization will organize a massive distribution of fliers. It also supports Team Adam, which consists mostly of retired law enforcement officials who mount a SWAT team effort when a child disappears. Both services are free.

[ayjey]

Originally posted by Toth
Please don't waste my time with this "Patsy-did-it" stuff. I would like this thread to focus on an intruder who killed JBR but then 'stopped'.
Is he no longer a pedophile or was he never a pedophile?
Is he no longer leaving notes, but still killing?
Is he no longer leaving victims in the home or even having them found?
What would make a supposed pedophile 'take a vacation for so many years'?


There was no pedophile .

A pedophile would have satisfied his sick fantasy by doing much more to this beautiful little 6 year old child than taking pleasure in watching her struggle to get a rope off her neck and bashing her over the head.

A pedophile would not have taken the time to redress and wrap his victim and place her in a dark room in the basement.

A pedophile would not have written a 3 page ransom note taunting the parents.

A sexual deviant maybe but not a pedophile.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by MIBRO
The Ram$eys have already been throroughly investigated and there is convincing evidence of an intruder. Did you miss that statement? If you did, I can get the exact quotes. Statement? - Oh yes, you must mean the statement by the bimbo Keenan who was always convinced Santa Bill is the perp.

Of course there is always the Judge's statement--based on "the evidence presented", (or was that LACK of evidence presented by the ever-so-lame Darnay Hoffman...)

When evaluating "statements", it's always best to consider the source. Many of the posters on this forum know more about this case than Carnes or Keenan--and that's pretty sad.

[sissi]

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/exonerations/Bloodsworth_MD.htm

Edit to add a working link,the first one was a better story,but
would not link. A google search for Kirk Bloodsworth,will detail
his ordeal. BTW,I never thought this man should have
been convicted,there was literally not a shred of evidence.

I hope you can just hit this as a link..it was only available in google cache...
The story leaves out a few details,but look at the kind of man
that murdered this child,he was not a pedophile,and consider
the slowness of the system in identifying him.

edit to add:
Many thought they had the killer,and kids ran wild in that
park ,unattended for years after the murder. The man who
killed this little girl,never killed another (as far as we know)
There is another crime ,two blocks from my house,a murder
of a 21 yr old woman outside of her home,to which he may eventually be linked,however,he was passed over as a suspect
for years,even though he was a sex offender . His dna sat in
a database for years before this match,nine I believe.

[Toth]

CODIS. Difference between being entered into the database and searching the database despite having fewer than 13 markers. However the second blood spot provided a full CODIS satisfactory profile.

[Toth]

Originally posted by ayjey
There was no pedophile .
Thats what I've been trying to tell people.

A pedophile would not have taken the time to redress and wrap his victim and place her in a dark room in the basement.
She was not re-dressed, merely had her panties pulled back up, I don't think she was 'wrapped' but there is some evidence she was, hidden would be a good idea no matter what his motivation.

A pedophile would not have written a 3 page ransom note taunting the parents.
I don't think he would be likely to have done so either, thats one reason I don't think this was just a pedophile with lots of time on his hands.

[Sabrina]

Originally posted by Toth
CODIS. Difference between being entered into the database and searching the database despite having fewer than 13 markers. However the second blood spot provided a full CODIS satisfactory profile.

Where is the source for this Toth?

I recall Wood stating they could pull out 9 markers due to new technology, which is searchable according to the Crime Lab I spoke to.

It can be searched but not entered--that is correct. But it can be searched every day if need be to see if a new profile was entered that it matches. It's just like doing a google search on the computer. No big long involved analysis.

[ayjey]

Originally posted by Toth
I don't think he would be likely to have done so either, thats one reason I don't think this was just a pedophile with lots of time on his hands.


What is YOUR theory on the type of person who would do this?

Do you think it was a neighbor? A street person? A college student? The Gardener? Chris Wolf? Thomas Aquina?


I still struggle with the theory that Patsy did this, I just can't bring myself to believe she was so stressed out that she killed her baby.

[Toth]

Originally posted by ayjey
>What is YOUR theory on the type of person who would do this?
Depends on which way the wind is blowing and what I had for breakfast.

>Do you think it was a neighbor?
Statistically, that is most likely (thats why cops always canvas the neighborhood), but I do not think it was a neighbor in this case, despite the difficulty of not having a nearby vantage point in cold weather
> A street person?
Such as Thomas Aquinas? I don't think of him as a street person, but he could well be leading a marginal life, such as a 'hanger-on' at a local college.

I think, most of the time, that the intruder was a perfectly normal male with perfectly normal interests in adult females and an ability to satisfy those interests without any problems. I think he is fairly 'well to do' though not wealthy. Quite well educated, particularly in a very technical field. I don't think he is a 'fat cat' but I think he is fairly plump financially, has a wide variety of interests and a few obsessions. I think if you met him you would find him to be likeable but not charmng; socialable but not social and very intense about a few principles.

>can't bring myself to believe she was so stressed out
>that she killed her baby.
It would seem to require alot of stress and that anyone who 'snapped' under that stress would not 'snap back' in time to write a convoluted note under such extreme conditions. It is really rather unlikely to say that 'holiday stress' or 'turning forty' did it.

[ayjey]

someone that at one time was close to the Ramsey's, i.e., FW?

[Jayelles]

No - "GP".

[ayjey]

ya think?

[sissi]

Toth just described ,fairly well,one of the suspects. He was cleared, however did the police run his dna?
He was a well educated man, I am not saying boy,because he graduated from U of Boulder about 4 yrs older than the normal age for graduation.
What has disturbed me for years about him was his web site.
His life was full of ultraviolent ideas,web creations and writings.
He read Douglas,as he copied and pasted the photo from his book,the one of the camouflaged adult sitting on a vehicle after brutalizing a barbie. His portrayal of "barbie",caught the attention of Mattel and he was ordered to remove it from the site,Barbie with her decapitated head on a platter dripping in blood,barbie in bondage, many references to barbie. Barbie was the icon that made so many little girls feel bad about themselves,they could never reach high enough to meet the standard. He had a sister,and it was said she fell into the barbie trap. Did this mean she was ill,anorexic,etc.? who knows,not I.
His heads up letter ,sent in March of 1998 telling friends he was a suspect in a nationally reported sex crime,saying the police asked him about others,RH,JM,KM,and his saying they showed no interest in talking to them,but here's your "heads up". Why did they need a heads up? Did the police ever check these people??

I feel the police have been close to finding the killer,but never took the steps necessary ,never quite got past the Ramseys. Too bad they allowed their alpha male to influence them so.
JMO IMO

[Barbara]

"I feel the police have been close to finding the killer,but never took the steps necessary ,never quite got past the Ramseys."

There are very good reasons for that.

BTW, the Alpha Male was Alex Hunter and he was business partners and breakfast buddies with the Ram$ey attornies.

That explains to me why they were "close" but couldn't quite get close enough to the "real killer/s"

[twilight]

The trick here is that many of the wrongfully accused are disadvantaged. The police - if such happens- find a suspect with low probability of staging an adequate defence and nail him for the sake of expendience. NOTE: I said 'if such happens' and I meant it. I'm not convinced it's a common occurrence.

There have been cases of wrongful conviction, but they are never wealthy people with good legal resources. (oh, except for poor OJ of course...if you could hear me you would notice a dollop of sarcasm dripping from my tongue).

Were the BPD to want to frame some inidividual for this crime, they would pick some frameable individual.

Praise goes to the cop who solves the crime and expediates the process...bigger praise goes to the cop who can present enough evidence to make the case fly in court. That's how the system works. It is $$ based...like any other system in a capitalist economy.

Nobody goes after wealthy well-lawyered suspects as a first choice. This is a path to disaster. Overtime - fiscal loss. Spin teams and difficult trials...tying up manpower for many hours.

What the BPD were stuck with was no other choice. They wanted to eliminate the Rams who would not cooperate. This is a big red flag and hard to get around - non-cooperation.

In the meantime, you can't tell me they wouldn't have been ecstatic if some weird, wanked ped had stumbled into the station and confessed all. Case closed - no more money spent - budget saved - Yeah! Yeah! WWP goes to legal aid and everyone breaths a ~sigh~ of relief.

[sissi]

quote twilight:The trick here is that many of the wrongfully accused are disadvantaged

Yes that is the right answer,and had Patsy and John fit into this category,they would have been wrongfully accused ,as well. The had funds to protect themselves.

Latest news,if memory serves,is 127 saved from death row,can anyone imagine the thousands that could benefit from the "innocence project",if it could be expanded to include less serious offenses?
IMO JMO

[SisterSocks]

You preach on sister , I agree sissi. Girl I felt the power behind that post =)

[Nedthan Johns]

Mibro: DNA comparison does not stop at the number of markers, Ned.

Ned: Where did I state it did? I stated that the DNA in the Ramsey case was not run through Codis.

Mibro: Statistical values are placed on the match against population probabilities. Give me a break.

Ned: Statistical values? What statistical values?

Mibro: YOUR information is OLD. YOUR information is selective and taken out of context and spun into nonsense.

Ned: Old? My information comes from top scientists that work in the same field as I. True genetic testing is growing by leaps and bounds, but the facts are as stated: There are NOT enough genetic profile markers present found in the DNA sample collected from the Ramsey crime scene presently to make a sucessful conclusion to determine who the person may be. The DNA is TOO degraded. May I quote Dr. Lee "This is NOT a DNA case, the DNA can only rule someone out, it cannot be used to idenitify a suspect." It's as simple as that Mibro.

Mibro: ANYONE with ANY sense at all knows NONE of the Rameys were involved in the death of their daughter. TRY to get into 2003, okay. You are stuck in the spring of 1997 for heaven's sake.

Ned: Funny Mirbro, very funny, you will see if you take a poll that most Americans even after Lin Woods silly fiasco relase of the 911 tape, still conclude that the Ramsey's had something to do with the murder of their daughter, if not MORE so today, since we all have witnessed over the past years that the Ramsey's have done ABSOULTELY NOTHING, to help catch her killer. But it's okay Mibro, I understand you are still living in dream land. :D

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: It would seem to require alot of stress and that anyone who 'snapped' under that stress would not 'snap back' in time to write a convoluted note under such extreme conditions. It is really rather unlikely to say that 'holiday stress' or 'turning forty' did it.

Ned: Yeah that would be kind of like stating Susan Smith did it for the attention of another man. LOL Toth why oh why would you think that it's rather silly to say that Patsy accidently murdered JB in a sudden snap due to holiday stress or turning forty? Parents have murdered and or abused their children for less. Some just for the fun of it. Patsy's characteristics tell me she is a woman capable of such crime. Her handwriting matches the ransom note and it was her red fibers found at the crime scene.

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: CODIS. Difference between being entered into the database and searching the database despite having fewer than 13 markers. However the second blood spot provided a full CODIS satisfactory profile

Ned: BS. I spoke directly with Lou Smit, the blood was intermingled with fluids from JB, and wasn't even seen by the naked eye. It was so degraded, there is NO way it could be run through CODIS and never has been.

[Nedthan Johns]

Ivy: Melissa Weber, chief molecular biologist at CellMark Laboratories, said that the extra markers in the DNA found in JonBenet's underpants and under her fingernails could very well be shadow bands ("stutter"), a false positive for foreign DNA that often occurs when degraded DNA is amplified. Weber also said that when two sources of DNA are mixed together, no one could be excluded as the donor. When Lou Smit said that John and Burke Ramsey had been excluded, he was wrong. What he should have said is that although their DNA didn't match the samples, a match to anyone was still technologically impossible.

Ned: Yes, thank you Ivy

The markers in the two samples of "foreign" DNA (one from the panties and one from the fingernails) didn't match each other, so I guess there must have been two intruders. Either that, or the "foreign" DNA is a false positive resulting from the amplification process.

Ned: Actually according to Lou who I spoke to in great detail told me that they did match, however, I find that hard to believe, and think the statement should be that could be a possible match as a positive match is not possible since the samples were poor

Please, Mibro, give us an update on new advances in DNA technology that have ruled out the possibilty that the "foreign" DNA was nothing more than a false positive resulting from the PCR amplification process...and when you've done that, please describe the process by which John and Burke have been excluded as the donors.

Ned: Yes I would like to hear this as well LOL

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: Just reasons why one might be 'satisfied' after the JonBenet killing and not go on to "bigger and better things
Ned: First of all let’s get real, we first have to determine what kind of killer this is. Is he a burglar: Well no, he didn’t take anything, in fact left the house rather tidy wouldn’t you say? Was he a kidnapper? Well no he didn’t take the body with him, in fact he didn’t even bother trying to collect a ransom. Is he a pedophile? Well no again, he never penially penetrated the child, and no semen was left that we know of, and pedophiles USUALLY don’t kill their victims, they love them. Was he a crazed killer? Perhaps, but then why the careful clean up of the crime scene, why cover the child? Why re-dress her or hid her for that fact? Was he a serial killer? Well certainly not that we know of, no other child has been killed in this manner since. So if this imaginary intruder of yours fit one of the scenarios above then YES I would expect that he would have struck again, unless by some misfortune of his, he ended up in jail, and I can’t imagine he didn’t brag about pulling of one of the most notorious crimes of the century. Or perhaps Toth this crime scene is just as it seems: An accidental murder, staged to look like someone else perpetrated it by two parents that were hiding the obvious, the sexual abuse of their daughter, which they up until that night kept well hidden.

[Sabrina]

Sissy:"How dare he say the child was papoosed ,wrapped in a blanket??? He has no idea,he never saw this! "

But John Ramsey did and said so in one of his interviews. It's in the NE interrogation transcript book.

People are so quick to criticize Steve Thomas. I have yet to find a "lie", yet the Ramseys book is full of them, especially when compared to the interrogation tapes!

Toth: I am still waiting for the official source on the 12 markers. And also where is it said the DNA does not match fro her panties to nails. Do you know what that indicates? It indicates there was NO intruder. But I know that anyway.

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: would like this thread to focus on an intruder who killed JBR but then 'stopped'.

Ned: Well then you are on the wrong forum :D

Toth: Is he no longer a pedophile or was he never a pedophile?

Ned: Obviously Toth you don't have much education in criminal profiling, or apprently don't read much. There is NO cure for pedophillia, one does not become a pedophile for one day and quit. NO pedophile murdered JB.

Toth: Is he no longer leaving notes, but still killing?

Ned: Children? apparently not, how many serial killers do you know that change their MO? Not many.

Is he no longer leaving victims in the home or even having them found?
What would make a supposed pedophile 'take a vacation for so many years'?

Ned: LOL, the killer(s) is (are) on vacation alright, currently on their way to Charleoxville

[Nedthan Johns]

Ivy ROTFLMAO That was a great read! :D :D :D

[Toltec]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sissi
[B]I'm tired and cranky tonight, spent the week re-reading almost all
of the "Jonbenet" books,and can honestly conclude one thing,that everyone will hate me for. Steve Thomas IMO is sociopathic.
How dare he use the information he received from Judith Phillips as the basis for so much of the crap he stated. How dare he say the child was papoosed ,wrapped in a blanket??? He has no idea,he never saw this!
If you re-read his book,he makes a better case for a few others ,something a real detective would have noticed.

Excuse me Sissi but you say you were re-reading all of the JBR books??? Did you read the NE Police Files? John Ramsey is the one who stated that JonBenet was wrapped "papoose" style. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

page 306: JR: Well, I saw a white blanket, thats folded across her body neatly...she was laying on the blanket...the blanket was caught up around and crossed in front of her as if someone was tucking her in.

page 309 MK: ...Now, when you went inside to that room, you described the blanket. And you said it was folded like...

JR: It was like an indian papoose...you know, the blanket was under her completely. It was brought up and folded over...at that time I didn't know the extent of the injuries - but it looked like somebody had just put her there comfortably, but tied up with her mouth gagged.

[Toltec]

Sorry Sabrina for posting what you just verified. Steve Thomas knows what he speaks...he has seen the evidence and participated in the interrogations of both John and Patsy.

Some people just can't handle the truth!

[Sabrina]

Lin Wood stated this in July on the Larry King show. I was told by the crime lab I called that 9 markers can be compared to the data banks and they do it all the time. I was told this is like a Google search. Why Lin Wood is saying it can take a year is beyond me. I don't believe they never tested it, but I do believe him when he says they have 10 markers.

Toth, sorry, but this says it was stretched to 10. (I incorrectly thought 9) He never said that they have all the markers.



KING: Why are you confident they're going to find someone?

WOOD: Because of the DNA. You know, you probably heard along the way that
the DNA evidence in this case was not necessarily of good quality, that it
might even be contaminant. Although there was a point in time when the
Boulder police were clearing people based on DNA, but not the Ramseys.

Here's what we now know. We knew that there was foreign male DNA found in
-- under the fingernails of both of JonBenet's hands. Foreign meaning it
was not the Ramseys. Male.

There was also a spot of blood. Intermingled in that blood was foreign
male DNA. Not the Ramseys.

Now, I've learned in the last few months, since Mary Keenan took this case
over, that in fact, there was a second spot of blood, both of these spots
of blood being in the crotch area of JonBenet's underwear.

In 1998, someone finally said, "You know, we never tested the second spot
of blood. Let's do that." They did test it, and the results came back in
1999, and the results were strong. It has nine clear markers and a 10th
marker which is just at meeting the standard.

And the reason that's important is because you have to have 10 markers to
submit that DNA into the federal FBI CODUS (ph) databank.

One of the things that, I think, establishes without question the bias of
the Boulder Police Department is that they never, at any time, made any
effort to try to get the DNA evidence in this case into any of the state
DNA databanks or into the FBI CODUS (ph) databank system.

And Larry, that may come up with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) now. It may be a year.
KING: How do you capture someone, though?

WOOD: Well, with the CODUS (ph) databank, it actually keeps not only the
DNA on convicted violent criminals, it also maintains the DNA from
unsolved cases.

KING: Oh, it does.

WOOD: It does. And this DNA is not just strong enough to exclude, this DNA
is strong enough to identify. And no efforts were made to get it into the
databank. That is a priority, the number one priority of the new
investigation by Mary Keenan.

[Sabrina]

Twilight, in spite of what some of the public thinks, the police do NOT want to charge the wrong person with a crime. This IS worse for the law enforcement departments than charging NO person. Perhaps, you might find this mentality in some small time one sheriff southern town, but in the majority of the U.S. and especially the large cities that have the high crime rates, it's totally untrue.


There are some public defenders that are incompetent, and there are some that are excellent attorneys. They work on a rotating list. It's the luck of the draw who a defendant would get.

The national rate for clearing homicides is 62%. This is a much higher % than solving rapes,property crimes, robbery. It's still pretty bad when you figure it's more like 50% because there are many homicides that the authorities are not really aware of- missing persons,mainly runaways and prostitutes. If what you are saying is true, the clearance rate would be much higher.

If you go back and research the old cases of the "wrongly" accused--MOST were convicted on incorrect eye witness testimony. DNA technology was not available at the time of the trial and that is what is setting them free on these old cases.

I do agree though, that the Ramseys bought their freedom-- thanks to their lawyers and the relationships between these lawyers and the D.A. They were treated like no other suspect was ever treated, and the investigation was compromised because of the lack of interviews and cooperation--aside from the mistakes the police made. NO suspects should have access to the evidence as they did- they bargained for it -and now thanks to Smit and Wood everything practically was made public and the case is completely compromised. Sorry to be pessimistic, but there will never be a sucessful prosecution unless someone confesses.

[Nedthan Johns]

Sabrina: I also got a lesson on "degraded" DNA-- I am sure you have too I am convinced the DNA was from some 6 year old playmate from several days before and they are never going to match it unless he commits a sex crime when he grows up!


Ned: Exactly

[Sabrina]

Ned,

My belief is the same as yours. The crime lab told me they are even taking samples for carjacking and robbery for the data bank now.

There were tons of kids in the neighborhood --even the Ramseys admit kids were in and out all day. No names were given in the interviews, nor were they asked. Besdies, Patsy wouldn't recall anyway. Who knows if they got all the kids' DNA and who knows if some of the kids had out of town guests playing with them as well.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
the DNA was from some 6 year old playmate from several days before We've already solved the DNA issue, Ned. The BPD tested new underwear--right out of the store package, and found it to contain degraded male DNA.
This means the DNA in the Ramsey case was left by Sum Yung Gai, who works in an Indonesian garment factory.

[sissi]

Could you source this please,it sounds interesting . They actually tested underwear,a random package for dna?

On a fairly complete search I found this,quote by Charlie Brennen..... Another investigator with expertise on forensic issues, who spoke only on the condition of anonymity, confirmed the theory that the underwear DNA might be the result of point-of-production contamination

Just who is this anonymous investigator who thought this,and
claims another anonymous investigator has tested "identical" packages and found human dna???? Can they tell us who they work for,the BPD,themselves? I hate this kind of information...as it grows roots and becomes fact.
There were two stains,one ignored for years,one tested early on,amazing that this dna was only found within the blood stains,not elsewhere on these undies.

What will this do to forensic science when they get wind of it,that all of the rape ,and murder cases that hinge on dna results are invalid,unless of course we can prove the dna was not asian,and then again,how many male asians work the sweat shops,I don't know the numbers. IMO JMO

[Maxi]

The DNA used to convict rapists is usually taken from inside the woman. It's one heck of a lot harder to explain DNA found inside a woman than on her clothing.

I have no idea if anyone actually conducted a test on packaged day-of-the-week panties from Bloomies and found foreign DNA in the crotch. I did see a tv show in which package underwear was found to have body fluid traces on it. Disgusting! :eek: Wash everything before wearing!

[vicktor]

It makes sense to suspect that a pedophile commited the crime. The act may have been over the top for him, brought his conscience into play, where he didn't have much desire to repeat it. All the publicity and a fear of getting caught next time might have restrained his urges. IMO, he hasn't done it again, but still has fantasies about sexual activities he would like to pursue with a similar victim as JBR. If given a chance, I believe he would try to start some kind of relationship with a girl.

Since he abducted JBR but didn't leave the house, there was a real possibility he might be found out and IMO that limited the activities he thought he could get away with. Maybe he thought of rape but didn't think he could pull it off without leaving direct evidence implicating himself, or losing control of the situation. This person seems very much at odds with himself and with those around him. This would explain a lot about the case and it's aftermath.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by twilight
The trick here is that many of the wrongfully accused are disadvantaged. The police - if such happens- find a suspect with low probability of staging an adequate defence and nail him for the sake of expendience. NOTE: I said 'if such happens' and I meant it. I'm not convinced it's a common occurrence.

There have been cases of wrongful conviction, but they are never wealthy people with good legal resources. (oh, except for poor OJ of course...if you could hear me you would notice a dollop of sarcasm dripping from my tongue).

Were the BPD to want to frame some inidividual for this crime, they would pick some frameable individual.

Praise goes to the cop who solves the crime and expediates the process...bigger praise goes to the cop who can present enough evidence to make the case fly in court. That's how the system works. It is $$ based...like any other system in a capitalist economy.

Nobody goes after wealthy well-lawyered suspects as a first choice. This is a path to disaster. Overtime - fiscal loss. Spin teams and difficult trials...tying up manpower for many hours.

What the BPD were stuck with was no other choice. They wanted to eliminate the Rams who would not cooperate. This is a big red flag and hard to get around - non-cooperation.

In the meantime, you can't tell me they wouldn't have been ecstatic if some weird, wanked ped had stumbled into the station and confessed all. Case closed - no more money spent - budget saved - Yeah! Yeah! WWP goes to legal aid and everyone breaths a ~sigh~ of relief.


WHERE'S THE JUSTICE FOR "JONBENET" IN THIS MESS?

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by twilight
The trick here is that many of the wrongfully accused are disadvantaged. The police - if such happens- find a suspect with low probability of staging an adequate defence and nail him for the sake of expendience. NOTE: I said 'if such happens' and I meant it. I'm not convinced it's a common occurrence.

There have been cases of wrongful conviction, but they are never wealthy people with good legal resources. (oh, except for poor OJ of course...if you could hear me you would notice a dollop of sarcasm dripping from my tongue).

Were the BPD to want to frame some inidividual for this crime, they would pick some frameable individual.

Praise goes to the cop who solves the crime and expediates the process...bigger praise goes to the cop who can present enough evidence to make the case fly in court. That's how the system works. It is $$ based...like any other system in a capitalist economy.

Nobody goes after wealthy well-lawyered suspects as a first choice. This is a path to disaster. Overtime - fiscal loss. Spin teams and difficult trials...tying up manpower for many hours.

What the BPD were stuck with was no other choice. They wanted to eliminate the Rams who would not cooperate. This is a big red flag and hard to get around - non-cooperation.

In the meantime, you can't tell me they wouldn't have been ecstatic if some weird, wanked ped had stumbled into the station and confessed all. Case closed - no more money spent - budget saved - Yeah! Yeah! WWP goes to legal aid and everyone breaths a ~sigh~ of relief. http://crime.about.com/library/weekly/aa101600b.htm

[Toth]

Do any of you think the dna found in a bag fresh from the factory in Asia had Caucasian dna?

[sissi]

Maxi..The DNA used to convict rapists is usually taken from inside the woman. It's one heck of a lot harder to explain DNA found inside a woman than on her clothing.


and not surprising Maxi is very often right!!

Most case that are solved with dna do have this in common,however,there are many cases where all they have
is clothing from the victim.

Toth,exactly!
How many caucasion men are working sweatshops?
IMO

[Sabrina]

Toth, WHAt is your source that this was caucasian and what is your source that degraded 9 marker DNA can determine race?

[Sabrina]

Sissi, here is the article about DNA found in a pair of new panties.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/ramsey/article/0,1299,DRMN_1296_1554639,00.html

[Jayelles]

Toth & Sissi
Do any of you think the dna found in a bag fresh from the factory in Asia had Caucasian dna?

And how would Caucasian DNA be defined?

Venter and scientists at the National Institutes of Health recently announced they had mapped the entire human genome and unanimously declared there is only one race – the human race.

http://www.llcc.edu/gtruitt/SCJ%20Fall%202003%20Web%
20Pages/SCJ%20251%20Fall%202002%20Start%
20Page/251/race%20and%20DNA.htm

These guys say that racial differences are not reflected at genetic level.

[sissi]

Sabrina,thanks,I had read that one,concerning the investigator that has chosen to remain anonymous.

From Scientific America.. Discussing the .1 percent difference...
According an article in Scientific American (February 2003), even that small percentage is a race marker. Sociologist Troy Duster noted that criminologists could discover whether a criminal was Asian, Caucasian or Afro-Caribbean by analyzing three sections of DNA. This discovery broke down the widely held view that the concept of race was basically a social construct.


IMO JMO

In reality I suggest they are using that one auxillary hair as
the race card

[Jayelles]

I am aware of this study actually. However, the definition of Caucasian is still very loose. It is still a fact that genetically, we can share more markers with people of another race than we can with someone of our own race.

Additionally, last year I contacted one of the scientists who is working on the Human Genome Programme and he said that if he had to be pinned down to an answer, then he would say that no, race cannot yet be accurately determined from DNA - mainly because in many cases, race is so indefinite. There is a huge database which was made during a massive study of mtDNA and because they have that information on a database, they can establish some racial information - but only because of the sheer volume of data they have on file. Recall that during the Westerfield trial, everyone was very surprised when it was revealed that one of the blonde hairs was determined to be 'Asian'. It had belonged to Westerfield's Asian ex-girlfriend who had bleached her hair blonde.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by Sabrina
Toth, WHAt is your source that this was caucasian and what is your source that degraded 9 marker DNA can determine race? Where else. More lies propagated by the JamSkank.

[Sabrina]

You're right Shylock. Too bad Toth doesn't do any research.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00146.htm


DNA and Race



Question - Is it possible to tell the race of a person from their DNA?

No - Dr. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, says that there
is no evidence so far that would distinguish DNA from one race as opposed to
any other.
==========================================

[sissi]

Science is only a proven truth until tomorrow. Your research has been supplanted by newer,however,I do doubt the reason for naming the perp as caucasion has anymore substance than the appearance of that "hair",which was considered later to be a body hair,not a pubic one.

IMO
I have never read information that it had ever been tested,only compared visually to others.

[Sabrina]

Sissi,
Under a microscope, a forensic examiner should be able to determine if a hair is Caucasian or African American.

I have questions concerning race and DNA. I know the labs determined the LA serial killer was MOST LIKELY African American. I say most likely because what does one consider a multi racial person. Not only that, but there are certain bands which come up more prevelent in certain races, that's all. It's not certain. To say the DNA belongs to a Caucasion when there were only 9 or 10 markers present is totally reckless and a downright lie and was perpetuated by the swamp when the article came out about the DNA being found in the unopened package of panties.

If there is any official notice that the DNA is Caucasian, please provide the link.

Certain people believe myths that are hatched at the swamp as facts with absolutely nothing official to back it up.

[sissi]

I don't believe I feel any differently about this than you, the hair was considered caucasion,the dna at that time could not be tested for race,I conceded to that long ago.
If you choose to believe the dna under her nails,and located in two different blood stains is that of an asian sweatshop kid,that is your choice. I made mine,IMO the dna will one day identify the killer. IMO JMO
If the killer is still alive,he will be found!

[Sabrina]

Sorry Sissi, I meant to address it to Toth.

[Sabrina]

Toth, where are you? Is your hat on crooked today?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=3246053359

[Toth]

Originally posted by Sabrina
Toth, where are you? Is your hat on crooked today?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=3246053359 I've had lots of bidders and sales are going quite well thankyou.

[Sabrina]

Can you believe the bids on it? I think I'll make a few dozen up and get them on Ebay this week. I will not accept donations of used hats from the swamp though.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by twilight
The trick here is that many of the wrongfully accused are disadvantaged. The police - if such happens- find a suspect with low probability of staging an adequate defence and nail him for the sake of expendience. NOTE: I said 'if such happens' and I meant it. I'm not convinced it's a common occurrence.

There have been cases of wrongful conviction, but they are never wealthy people with good legal resources. (oh, except for poor OJ of course...if you could hear me you would notice a dollop of sarcasm dripping from my tongue).

Were the BPD to want to frame some inidividual for this crime, they would pick some frameable individual.

Praise goes to the cop who solves the crime and expediates the process...bigger praise goes to the cop who can present enough evidence to make the case fly in court. That's how the system works. It is $$ based...like any other system in a capitalist economy.

Nobody goes after wealthy well-lawyered suspects as a first choice. This is a path to disaster. Overtime - fiscal loss. Spin teams and difficult trials...tying up manpower for many hours.

What the BPD were stuck with was no other choice. They wanted to eliminate the Rams who would not cooperate. This is a big red flag and hard to get around - non-cooperation.

In the meantime, you can't tell me they wouldn't have been ecstatic if some weird, wanked ped had stumbled into the station and confessed all. Case closed - no more money spent - budget saved - Yeah! Yeah! WWP goes to legal aid and everyone breaths a ~sigh~ of relief.

IMHO I feel that I should be saying "can you hear me now?" as in the overprocessed TV commercial...LOL

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Toth
I've had lots of bidders and sales are going quite well thankyou.

Bless you & yours in a positive way:(Justice for JonBenet)?right?!

:) :) :) :) :) :) :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by vicktor
It makes sense to suspect that a pedophile commited the crime. The act may have been over the top for him, brought his conscience into play, where he didn't have much desire to repeat it. All the publicity and a fear of getting caught next time might have restrained his urges. IMO, he hasn't done it again, but still has fantasies about sexual activities he would like to pursue with a similar victim as JBR. If given a chance, I believe he would try to start some kind of relationship with a girl.

Since he abducted JBR but didn't leave the house, there was a real possibility he might be found out and IMO that limited the activities he thought he could get away with. Maybe he thought of rape but didn't think he could pull it off without leaving direct evidence implicating himself, or losing control of the situation. This person seems very much at odds with himself and with those around him. This would explain a lot about the case and it's aftermath.

That's part of being a "virgo".... watch(wash) it twice and then some LOL!!!

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Shylock
Where else. More lies propagated by the JamSkank.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/feb_13.html?sect=7
On November 19, 2002, The Rocky Mountain News reported the unknown male DNA recovered from JonBenet's panties could have been left on the garment at the time the clothing was manufactured. "In exploring that theory, investigators obtained unopened 'control' samples of identical underwear manufactured in the plant in Southeast Asia, tested them and found human DNA in some of those new, unused panties."

[Toth]

Nobody goes after wealthy well-lawyered suspects as a first choice. What the BPD were stuck with was no other choice. They wanted to eliminate the Rams who would not cooperate. ..."

The BPD never wanted to eliminate the Ramseys; they just wanted to put them in jail. They were perfectly willing to take on a rich, well-lawyered target, particularly since they didn't have any other targets on their radar screen and weren't particularly interested in looking for any either.

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Toth
The BPD never wanted to eliminate the Ramseys; they just wanted to put them in jail. They were perfectly willing to take on a rich, well-lawyered target, particularly since they didn't have any other targets on their radar screen and weren't particularly interested in looking for any either.

Unless the redacted name on the CBI report about the DNA findings which was dated January of 1997 is a Ramsey name, then you are wrong; in the initial days of the case, investigators were willing to look so far afield they took, and had verifiably analyzed, DNA samples for comparison to the crime scene from someone whose name is not public to this day. And you have obviously forgotten the sealed search warrant, again, not released even to this very day, which was issued December 26th of 1996 and was for a location belonging to people Judge Diane McDonald described as "certain parties who have never been mentioned in the media" and whom Boulder DA deputy Bill Nagel described as "several people in addition to police and the victim's family."

[Sabrina]

"Originally posted by Toth
The BPD never wanted to eliminate the Ramseys; they just wanted to put them in jail. They were perfectly willing to take on a rich, well-lawyered target, particularly since they didn't have any other targets on their radar screen and weren't particularly interested in looking for any either. "

This is just pure false-- propaganda propagated from Wood and *******. The BPD investigated SCORES of potential suspects.
Part of the problem with the media is the Ramseys brought everything on themseleves by not cooperating with police the way parents of a murdered child usually do!

Police are not in the business of framing "rich" suspects who have $ to afford a plethora of defense attornies. Come back to reality. AND if the BPD were out to "frame" the Ramseys, there would have been something significant "planted." Like OJ's bloody glove.

[Toth]

Originally posted by Sabrina
"Originally posted by Toth
The BPD never wanted to eliminate the Ramseys; they just wanted to put them in jail. They were perfectly willing to take on a rich, well-lawyered target, particularly since they didn't have any other targets on their radar screen and weren't particularly interested in looking for any either. "

The BPD investigated SCORES of potential suspects.

Police are not in the business of framing "rich" suspects who have $ to afford a plethora of defense attornies.
I think in your zeal you are being a bit overly melodramatic: 'frame' and 'bloodly glove'.

I did not say the BPD wanted to 'frame' the Ramseys. I think they wanted to make the shoe fit the only foot they had available to fit it on and they were quite willing to warp the shoe as much as possible and probably a bit willing to shape the foot too, such as by having a conversation overheard or by leaks to the media, etc.

It is fairly well established that a number of witnesses had the impression that all interviews were emphasizing parental guilt and anything else was being given short shrift or mere lip service.
Even people involved in Colorado law enforcement were aware that it seemed the BPD has an axe to grind. Many felt it was the wrong axe, but they realized the BPD were determined to focus in one direction only.

[Nehemiah]

Sissi...To whom are you referring here?
"Toth just described ,fairly well,one of the suspects. He was cleared, however did the police run his dna? He was a well educated man, I am not saying boy,because he graduated from U of Boulder about 4 yrs older than the normal age for graduation.
What has disturbed me for years about him was his web site.
His life was full of ultraviolent ideas,web creations and writings.
He read Douglas,as he copied and pasted the photo from his book,the one of the camouflaged adult sitting on a vehicle after brutalizing a barbie. His portrayal of "barbie",caught the attention of Mattel and he was ordered to remove it from the site,Barbie with her decapitated head on a platter dripping in blood,barbie in bondage, many references to barbie. Barbie was the icon that made so many little girls feel bad about themselves,they could never reach high enough to meet the standard. He had a sister,and it was said she fell into the barbie trap. Did this mean she was ill,anorexic,etc.? who knows,not I.
His heads up letter ,sent in March of 1998 telling friends he was a suspect in a nationally reported sex crime,saying the police asked him about others,RH,JM,KM,and his saying they showed no interest in talking to them,but here's your "heads up". Why did they need a heads up? Did the police ever check these people??"

Thanks, Nehemiah

[Toth]

it must be remembered that 'suspect' is a rather meaningless term. Many people become subjects of inquiry and are relegated to the same obscurity that they previously enjoyed. Often there is simply no indication that they deserve further inquiry or there is sufficient evidence to place them elsewhere at the time the crime was committed. Sometimes the obvious suspects are not even looked at: such as the boyfriend of the murder victim when the woman was the manager of a fast food place during a string of violent robberies of such establishments.

McSanta appears to be weird but harmless. A few others appear to be weird and uninvolved with the murder of JonBenet, but by no means would be termed 'harmless'.

Some people had dna taken but not tested for a variety of reasons.

There is little to indicate what the actual level of suspicion was for any particular suspect, we only know the Party Line was Parental Guilt and everything else appears to have been rather haphazard.

[Sabrina]

Toth, they didn't spend 2 million dollars or whatever it was trying to build a case against the Ramseys. The evidence kept pointing back to them. There is MORE viable evidence pointing towards them than towards anyone else.

I've always said if Lou Smit was such a hot shot detective, how come he hasn't solved it by now. And if one listens to John Douglas, it was someone who knew the Ramseys and had been in the home. Gee, they knew them well enough to mimic Patsy's handwriting, aome of Patsy and John's phrases, and John's bonus amount. They even knew in the dark that the grate in the back had a window behind it!! Very smart intruder--who also wore gloves and a rubber suit and spent hours in the house but left virtually nothing.

[Toth]

Originally posted by Sabrina
.>Gee, they knew them well enough to mimic Patsy's handwriting,
Nothing indicates Patsy's handwriting was mimicked. Other handwriting exemplars are closer matches than Patsy's samples, were those people somehow having their handwriting mimicked also?
>some of Patsy and John's phrases,
I don't know of any such phrases in the note.
> and John's bonus amount.
Or perhaps the number of freeway signs in Colorado.
>They even knew in the dark that the grate in the back had a
>window behind it!!
I don't think entry into the house was made in the dark.
> Very smart intruder--who also wore gloves
possibly.
> and a rubber suit
Possibly, though I would doubt it.
> and spent hours in the house but left virtually nothing.
yes. similar to the intruders in Florida who were filmed inside a home, with all surfaces they touched clearly shown on the camera, but still not the slightest forensic evidence other than that surveillance camera film.

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Toth
yes. similar to the intruders in Florida who were filmed inside a home, with all surfaces they touched clearly shown on the camera, but still not the slightest forensic evidence other than that surveillance camera film.

I have gone looking for this incident and have found nothing with the sketchy information you have always provided, so until you provide names or some other verifiable information to prove that this story happened as you have said it has, the reading public ought to believe you have made it up. This really could be something you can counter my claim with, as it involves no betrayals of confidentiality given to unnamed sources; it should be a news story freely researchable.

[Ivy]

Toth, when you posted this very same info months ago, I asked you for a source, but you didn't provide it. After asking you again I gave up and spent over an hour trying to find online info about it but came up empty handed. Please post a link to a source containing the information you described above, or I for one will think you made the incident up.

[Britt]

Originally posted by Toth
similar to the intruders in Florida who were filmed inside a home, with all surfaces they touched clearly shown on the camera, but still not the slightest forensic evidence other than that surveillance camera film.
Toth, would that be the 1994 Sucharski murders?

[Ivy]

If that is the case Toth is referring to, there was physical evidence, although none of it connected Seth Penalver, one of the suspects, to the triple murder of Sharon Anderson, Marie Rogers, and Casimir "Butch Casey" Sucharski.

Although there was plenty of physical evidence in this case, none of it connected Appellant (Seth Penalver) to the crime. There was no eyewitness to the crime. There was exculpatory evidence. Another prime suspect was the owner of the murder weapon. Another suspect owned the shoes that made a print at the crime scene and these shoes were vastly different in size from those of Appellant.

http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/briefs/00-1602_rep.pdf

[Britt]

Ivy... also, from the appellant's (co-defendant Ibar's) Supreme Court brief, describing the videotape of the intrusion and crime:

The men touched many surfaces and wiped down areas as if to eradicate fingerprints.

http://www.flcourts.org/sct/clerk/briefs/2000/2001%20-%202200/00-2043_ini.pdf

Obviously since the intruders wiped off their fingerprints, that might explain the absence of said fingerprints.

So... yes, as Toth says, "all surfaces they touched [were] clearly shown on the camera," but also clearly shown were the intruders wiping up after themselves. IF this is Toth's case, he left that part out :)

[Ivy]

Thanks, Britt. LOL :p

[vicktor]

BB3:


"That's part of being a "vigo".... watch(wash) it twice and then someLOL."

Your statement to mine which described the perp as a pedophile doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As I once pointed out to a poster an another forum, if no one can understand you, then there is no communication. The LOL at the end makes me think it is an "inside" joke.

[Sabrina]

Gee, they knew them well enough to mimic Patsy's handwriting,
Nothing indicates Patsy's handwriting was mimicked. Other handwriting exemplars are closer matches than Patsy's samples, were those people somehow having their handwriting mimicked also?

Is this another myth perpetuated by the swamp? Please provide an official source. Lin Wood selling snake oil on Larry King doesn't count. And IF there is someone who came out with a score higher than Patsy's, WHO are they and do they have an alibi? Were their fibers all over the duct tape too?

>some of Patsy and John's phrases,
I don't know of any such phrases in the note.

FAT CATS, AND HENCE, 100%,PROPER BURIAL and...S.B.T.C.-- yes, Patsy used acronyms all the time. How many people use those silly things--was it John who even made up "Borg"? There are more in the note,odd phrases we have heard the Ramseys say in interviews or writings, I am just too lazy to look them all up.
> and John's bonus amount.

Or perhaps the number of freeway signs in Colorado.

There are more than 118,000 freeway signs. Oh, I forgot--the Mexican intruder who writes perfect English without a spanish speaker's errors, he wanted to change this into Pesos or something?
>They even knew in the dark that the grate in the back had a
>window behind it!!
I don't think entry into the house was made in the dark.

It is dark at 5:00 p.m. in Boulder in December. Do you think the intruder entered in the daytime then?

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Ivy
If that is the case Toth is referring to, there was physical evidence, although none of it connected Seth Penalver, one of the suspects, to the triple murder of Sharon Anderson, Marie Rogers, and Casimir "Butch Casey" Sucharski.



Toth is entirely discredited in the use of this anecdote, then. Now that I have names to look up, I have found out for myself the nature of the case, and Toth has been deceptive in the extreme. He says the intruders were videotaped but left no evidence? This is very wrong. A shoe print in blood was left behind. Another shoe print was left on an area of carpet. Live and spent bullet casings were found. A mask and a t-shirt with trace evidence on it were found outside the house. And a point of contention on the part of the convicted men is that 48 fingerprints left behind were not matched to them, but at the very least were left by someone.

[Ivy]

why_nutt, thanks for digging further into the case.

As Britt indicated, the reason no fingerprints matched the perps must be because, as the video tape showed, they wiped their prints from surfaces they'd touched.

[Toth]

Originally posted by Ivy
Toth, when you posted this very same info months ago, I asked you for a source, but you didn't provide it. After asking you again I gave up and spent over an hour trying to find online info about it but came up empty handed. Please post a link to a source containing the information you described above, or I for one will think you made the incident up. Get gin-drunk, play channel roulette with the remote, encounter the same TV program that I found... and you will know about as much as I do about it.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by vicktor
BB3:




Your statement to mine which described the perp as a pedophile doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As I once pointed out to a poster an another forum, if no one can understand you, then there is no communication. The LOL at the end makes me think it is an "inside" joke.

Sorry to waste your time...I pass (it's "KNOWING ABOUT THE VIRGO SIGN") that I was posting(LOL) about"--if you know about VIRGOS, you wouldn't have posted your response...sorry again!

P.S. IMHO the killer of JonBenet IS NOT A VIRGO!

[ajt400]

Originally posted by Sabrina
Yes, I find it very odd that out killer has not killed again. Not once in almost 8 years.



How do you kow he hasn't killed again? Maybe he just wasn't caught, or maybe the body hasn't been found, maybe it has and hasn't been connected. He could have commited suicide, or been committed to an asylum or prison. This would not be odd...

I don't really think this person (if there was an intruder) is going to kill someone a second time and go "Hey, there's my second victim, oh, BTW, I killed that girl JBR, you remember--in Colorado.

[lannie]

Originally posted by Toth
Get gin-drunk, play channel roulette with the remote, encounter the same TV program that I found... and you will know about as much as I do about it.

Reply from Lannie,
Toth I don't laugh oten at your posts, but that was funny,you could be a stand up :p comedian with that line, nice to see the ice broken once in awhile.