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Dark Knight
09-07-2004, 03:29 AM
It's the mystery of the 20th Century, who killed JFK? Did the murdered Dallas Police officer have a role in it? Here is a VERY interesting investigation into the timeline that day for Dallas Police Officer Tippit, who was later believed to be murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm

My opinion? Oswald was the lone gunman. All theories about places for a second gunman to shoot from were recently disproved in a Discovery Channel investigation. ABC World News Tonight also did an investigation and found that the Warren Comission was correct. And as for shooting FROM the grassy knoll, I don't think so! Most everyone on the ground seemed to know about the shots coming from the Book Depository 6 stories up and quite a ways away, but NO one noticed someone shooting a rifle from a grassy knoll right there on the street with people all around???? That defies all logic. Was he put up to it by someone else? I think so. Most likely a Mob hit. Was Officer Tippit involved? He sure acted suspiciously, that day, and maybe Oswald had to silence him, just like Ruby had to silence Oswald (and that is typical Mob practice, not only kill the person, but then kill the people who killed the person, to ensure no one was around as a witness.) And they likely also killed Monroe. But, did someone put them up to it, or did they do it on their own? I look forward to reading the various theories, and maybe we can fill each other in on things we have heard that others might not have. Take it away, Sleuthers!!!!

Gabby
09-09-2004, 06:04 AM
It's the mystery of the 20th Century, who killed JFK? Did the murdered Dallas Police officer have a role in it? Here is a VERY interesting investigation into the timeline that day for Dallas Police Officer Tippit, who was later believed to be murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm

My opinion? Oswald was the lone gunman. All theories about places for a second gunman to shoot from were recently disproved in a Discovery Channel investigation. ABC World News Tonight also did an investigation and found that the Warren Comission was correct. And as for shooting FROM the grassy knoll, I don't think so! Most everyone on the ground seemed to know about the shots coming from the Book Depository 6 stories up and quite a ways away, but NO one noticed someone shooting a rifle from a grassy knoll right there on the street with people all around???? That defies all logic. Was he put up to it by someone else? I think so. Most likely a Mob hit. Was Officer Tippit involved? He sure acted suspiciously, that day, and maybe Oswald had to silence him, just like Ruby had to silence Oswald (and that is typical Mob practice, not only kill the person, but then kill the people who killed the person, to ensure no one was around as a witness.) And they likely also killed Monroe. But, did someone put them up to it, or did they do it on their own? I look forward to reading the various theories, and maybe we can fill each other in on things we have heard that others might not have. Take it away, Sleuthers!!!!




DK If I can tear myself away from Laci Forum and the Parking Lot, I will be here tonight after reading your link.... Gabs

Dark Knight
09-09-2004, 07:12 AM
DK If I can tear myself away from Laci Forum and the Parking Lot, I will be here tonight after reading your link.... Gabs
The timeline is quite long, so that's fine. You are having too much fun in the parking lot, anyways, lol! :) I'll be popping in and out at times yet to be determined, hehe. :rolleyes:

Gabby
09-09-2004, 08:12 AM
The timeline is quite long, so that's fine. You are having too much fun in the parking lot, anyways, lol! :) I'll be popping in and out at times yet to be determined, hehe. :rolleyes:



Drop in the Bar and Grille and have a cyber drink on me!!!!!

Gabby
09-09-2004, 08:43 AM
DK

Very interesting article....

I want to read more on the site before I comment though...

TIme to go to work :-(



gabs

Richard
09-18-2004, 02:13 PM
J. D. TIPPIT (1924-1963) *Killed in line of duty, Nov. 22, 1963*

- J. D. Tippit was the Dallas policeman murdered on November 22, 1963, 45 minutes after the shooting of JFK. Tippit's murder was immediately pinned on Lee Harvey Oswald.

- Jefferson Davis Tippit, police officer, was born in Clarksville, Red River County, Texas, on September 18, 1924, to Edgar Lee and Lizzie Mae (Rush) Tippit. He attended public schools through the tenth grade and during World War II and served as a volunteer in the Seventeenth Airborne Division of the United States Army from July 21, 1944, to June 30, 1946.

- On December 26, 1946, he married Marie Frances Gasaway in Clarksville, moved with her to Dallas, and went to work for the Dearborn Stove Company. He worked in the installation department at Sears, Roebuck and Company from March 1948 to September 1949, when he resigned and moved to the farming community of Lone Star, where he attempted to raise cattle. Listing "general farming" as his course of training, he attended a Veterans Administration vocational training program at Bogata, Texas, from January 1950 to June 1952, and then withdrew to move again to Dallas.

- After working for a while as a carpenter's helper and doing odd jobs for a steel company, Tippit joined the Dallas Police Department as a patrolman on July 28, 1952. His usual assignment was day patrol in Oak Cliff, and he did some off-duty work to supplement his income. In 1956 he was cited for bravery for his role in disarming a fugitive from justice.

- Tippit was allegedly killed by Lee Harvey Oswald, the afternoon of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, on November 22, 1963, after stopping Oswald for questioning on an Oak Cliff street. His funeral took place the same day that funerals for John Kennedy and Oswald took place.

- In January 1964 he was awarded posthumously the Medal of Valor from the National Police Hall of Fame and in June of that year was given the Police Medal of Honor, the Police Cross, and the Citizens Traffic Commission Award of Heroism.

Richard
09-28-2004, 01:15 PM
Most of the evidence seems to implicate Lee Harvey Oswald in the murder of President John Kennedy. Oswald worked at the Book Depository Building, he owned the rifle found there, at least one bullet found at Parkland Hospital had been fired from that rifle, Oswald fled the scene and murdered a Police Officer and tried to kill another one in his attempt to escape.
There are, and will probably be as many conspiracy theories as there are students of that "crime of the century". Each of those theories has valid questions and points, but they tend to pick and choose the "evidence" that fits their theory and tend to flatly ignore other accepted facts.
Oswald was a strange duck, no matter how you look at him - a real enigma of a guy. Most conspiracy theories involve him in some way- either as the Lone Nut assassin, as part of a larger team, or as a Patsy or Fall Guy.
The really hard part of the whole story is the number of shots fired and the timing of those shots and how all the eyewitness testimony is so seemingly contradictory. Some say that one guy just could not shoot three (or more) bullets in just over six seconds, hitting the target two out of three times. And this feat is accomplished with a cheap, clumsey bolt action rifle of WW II Italian make.
In 1967, CBS decided to run a test to see if Oswald's alleged shooting feat could be repeated. Eleven marksmen were selected and the shooting was done at H. P. White Ballistic Laboratory in Bel Air, MD. Several shooters were able to duplicate the Warren Report's conclusion of Oswalds shooting, while only one man was able to better it. That man was a Baltimore resident named Howard Donahue.
Donahue had his 15 minutes of fame for his shooting skills that day, but even though he had helped to "Prove that it could be done", he began to study the Kennedy Assassination in great depth. The more he studied, the more he felt that something was not quite right. Unlike most other students of the crime, Donahue studied the ballistics in great detail, and was one of the first to see the autopsey photos. His conclusion was that the angle of the final head shot, the type of bullet, and other factors did not support a conclusion that it came from Oswald's rifle.
Donahue co-authored a book, "Mortal Error" with Bonar Menninger. The book is a fascinating one and comes to the conclusion/theory that one of the Secret Service men in the follow up car may have accidently fired a round from an AR-15 rifle during the assassination, and that it was a bullet from that rifle that hit Kennedy. The book is well researched and actually is the best analysis of the assassination ballistics that I have read.
Most conspiracy buffs dismissed Donahue's theory out of hand, because it does not support their pet theories. They scoff at the thought of something as coincidental as a firearms accident occurring. But when one considers the possibility of that happening, the government's investigation and actions following the assassination begin to make sense in a different sort of way.

Dark Knight
09-30-2004, 06:20 AM
Most of the evidence seems to implicate Lee Harvey Oswald in the murder of President John Kennedy. Oswald worked at the Book Depository Building, he owned the rifle found there, at least one bullet found at Parkland Hospital had been fired from that rifle, Oswald fled the scene and murdered a Police Officer and tried to kill another one in his attempt to escape.
There are, and will probably be as many conspiracy theories as there are students of that "crime of the century". Each of those theories has valid questions and points, but they tend to pick and choose the "evidence" that fits their theory and tend to flatly ignore other accepted facts.
Oswald was a strange duck, no matter how you look at him - a real enigma of a guy. Most conspiracy theories involve him in some way- either as the Lone Nut assassin, as part of a larger team, or as a Patsy or Fall Guy.
The really hard part of the whole story is the number of shots fired and the timing of those shots and how all the eyewitness testimony is so seemingly contradictory. Some say that one guy just could not shoot three (or more) bullets in just over six seconds, hitting the target two out of three times. And this feat is accomplished with a cheap, clumsey bolt action rifle of WW II Italian make.
In 1967, CBS decided to run a test to see if Oswald's alleged shooting feat could be repeated. Eleven marksmen were selected and the shooting was done at H. P. White Ballistic Laboratory in Bel Air, MD. Several shooters were able to duplicate the Warren Report's conclusion of Oswalds shooting, while only one man was able to better it. That man was a Baltimore resident named Howard Donahue.
Donahue had his 15 minutes of fame for his shooting skills that day, but even though he had helped to "Prove that it could be done", he began to study the Kennedy Assassination in great depth. The more he studied, the more he felt that something was not quite right. Unlike most other students of the crime, Donahue studied the ballistics in great detail, and was one of the first to see the autopsey photos. His conclusion was that the angle of the final head shot, the type of bullet, and other factors did not support a conclusion that it came from Oswald's rifle.
Donahue co-authored a book, "Mortal Error" with Bonar Menninger. The book is a fascinating one and comes to the conclusion/theory that one of the Secret Service men in the follow up car may have accidently fired a round from an AR-15 rifle during the assassination, and that it was a bullet from that rifle that hit Kennedy. The book is well researched and actually is the best analysis of the assassination ballistics that I have read.
Most conspiracy buffs dismissed Donahue's theory out of hand, because it does not support their pet theories. They scoff at the thought of something as coincidental as a firearms accident occurring. But when one considers the possibility of that happening, the government's investigation and actions following the assassination begin to make sense in a different sort of way.
Now THIS is a theory I have never heard before!!! I am not sure I buy into it, but it is a VERY interesting theory! Thanks for sharing it!

Jeana (DP)
09-30-2004, 09:14 AM
I've always been very interested in the Kennedys because my mother was such a big admirer. However, being only about a month old when he died, I think that everything now is hearsay and I don't really trust any of it. Its hard to get behind an investigation or want to get involved when you don't really trust any of the sources of information.

Mickeymouse523
10-25-2004, 09:58 PM
Before I say anything I want to say that everythign I say is just my opinion that I have come to after researching this case. I was not alove when Kennedy was shot so everything that I have learned has been from books that I have read.


1. I believe that vice president LBJ played a big role in this murder and cover-up. WHY? 1. Because he knew JFk was going to drop him off the 64 election ballot and he also knew that if he was droppped he would never become preseident himself, which is the only reason he became Kennedy's VP. 2. He flat out hated the Kennedy's becuas eof all their money.

2. I do not believe that LHO fired the fatal head shot. But, I do believe that he was involved and knew that he was going to be arrested. WHY? 1. There is no way that the shot that killed Kennedy came from the TSBD. 2. Based on his reaction following his arrest I think he was involved, I cant really pinpoint on reason, I just feel that he was. 3. The Moorman photograph, after enhancement it shows a man on the Grassy Knoll firing a rifle, this person has become known as Badgeman, as he appears to be wearing a Dallas Police Officer Uniform.

3. I think that the Warren Commission did a horrible job onvestigating the murder. WHY? 1. Johnson urged them to finish before the 64 election so it would look good for his reelection campaign. 2. They left out important information from eye witnesses. 3. the whole single/magic bullet joke, this is the one that got me.

4. I think that there was a conspiracy that like i said previously involved Lyndon Johnson, but who else it involved I am not sure, becuase obviously LBJ did not pull the trigger, but who he hired to I can not say. I am still researching this part.

5. Here is just some other information that I think is interesting pertaining to this case. 1. The motorcade rout was changed the morning of Nov 22. 2. I dont remember where I saw this but just before JFK is shot LBJ ducks down in his limo as if to get out of the way. 3. Jack Ruby says over and over again before he dies that if he is taken to DC he will tell everything he knows about the case.

If anybody wants to talk about this case more I would be more then happy to e-mail w/ you luvyaw@hotmail.com (---luvyaw@hotmail.com)

~Lyzy~

Richard
10-26-2004, 07:09 AM
You make some interesting observations regarding the Kennedy assassination.
Most people might tend to agree that the single most flaw in the Warren Report is their presentation of the "Single Bullet Theory" which is often called the "Magic Bullet Theory" by its detractors. This theory was that a single bullet fired from Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle hit Kennedy in the back, then emerged just below his throat (near his necktie knot), then proceeded to hit John Connally in the back, exiting his chest, then breaking his wrist, and finally lodging in his left thigh.
The Warren Report failed to elaborate on positions of the two, and detractors made up their own incorrect sketch regarding seating positions and shot timing. Viewed correctly, it is quite possible that the one bullet did all that.
The harder thing to accept is that the first bullet likely missed after being deflected by a tree branch and riccocheting off the pavement. Possibly Kennedy was struck with a piece of that first bullet, causing his initial reaction, seen so much earlier than Connally's reaction to being hit.
The final head shot and wound does seem quite different from the behavior of the "Single/Magic Bullet".

Mickeymouse523
10-26-2004, 06:46 PM
The magic bullet theory is what did it for me; 7 wounds in 2 people and pausing in mid air for 1.7 ( i think) second and changing its trajectory (sp?)

Also about the bullet that missed, a piece of the cement fragment hit a bystander, James Tague who was standign under the triple underpass. I think that this would show more then 3 shots, or there is the Warren Commission story of 3 shots, 1. Magic Bullet 2. Misses 3. fatal head shot.

I dont know all of the above is JMO!

Richard
10-26-2004, 08:34 PM
>>The magic bullet theory is what did it for me; 7 wounds in 2 people and pausing in mid air for 1.7 ( i think) second and changing its trajectory (sp?)<<

A full metal jacketet military bullet is quite capable of passing through the soft tissue of two people in close proximity. The problem comes with the PERCEPTION of timing and allignment. In trying to explain HOW that "guilty lone nut" Lee Harvey Oswald did it, the Warren Commission erroneously stated that the first shot fired hit both men, the second shot missed, and the third shot hit Kennedy in the head.
This scenario just did not seem to fit with the photographic evidence of the Zapruder 8mm movie. And conspiracy enthusiasts are quick to riddicule the entire Warren Report because of it. In so doing, they allways exaggerate the feats of the so called "magic bullet".
Analyzing that film, Kennedy seems to react to being hit, while Connally sits there undisturbed for a couple of seconds before reacting violently to his wounds.
Actually, Kennedy (who has reacted to something and grabs for his throat) reacts again - more violently - immediately before Connally does - to the same shot. Kennedy's elbows splay upward quickly in reaction to the bullet hitting his spine. Connally's shoulder drops, his cheeks puff out, and his coat opens a bit before he collapses into the arms of his wife.
The bullet did not make any sharp angle turns to accomplish this. If you look at the limousene's seating arrangements, Kennedy and his wife are sitting on the full back seat. Kennedy's arm at one point is resting on the metal exterior just behind the rear door. Connally and his wife, on the other hand, are sitting in removable jump seats which are placed lower and closer to the centerline of the vehicle. Except for some tumbling of the bullet, the shot was in a straight line.
Kennedy was sitting in somewhat of a slouched position and the back of his coat had ridden up slightly. The bullet struck a few inches below his coat collar, passed just to the right of his spine, striking one of the vertibrae slightly, and then passed out his throat just under his adams apple. It nicked his tie knot. The bullet then began to tumble and struck Connally in the upper right back near his armpit, still tumbling, it struck ribs and exited near his right nipple. The bullet then hit his wrist breaking it and (by then nearly spent) it came to rest in his left thigh, making only a superficial wound.
Not many books go into great detail about the specifics of the wounds. I would suggest two:
"Kennedy and Lincoln" by John Lattimer and
"Mortal Error: the Shot that Killed JFK" by Bonar Menninger and Howard Donahue
There are many questions which linger about the assassination. When one seems to be answered, more appear.

miles_draken
10-26-2004, 09:35 PM
Hey guys, everyone knows that the " Smoking Man " from X-files shot the president from the storm drain on the side of the street!! Seriously though, LBJ was a real hard core son of a gun, there is a rumour that he killed his own sister, who was a prostitute or something, to shut her up. I think it's quite possible that he was in on it along with other government officials. As far as the mob being involved, no way, they couldn't pull off something like that in my opinion. It was a government job. If anyone is still basing theories off of Oliver Stones JFK that movie was so horribly inaccurate I can't believe it was even made. Jim Garrison was quite a rambling idiot and even knew he was way off. He didn't deliver that emotional speech in the courtroom like Kevin Costner did in the movie, he was barely there toward the end. Anyway, my 2 cents, LBJ did the deed. I did see the Discovery CHannel program on proving Oswald could have done it, but the guy they used was a sharpshooter, and I've heard that Oswald wasn't a crack shot. I love this conspiracy story though.

Interesting note: Bobby Kennedy once said to a friend in private that he thought the gentleman in New Orleans had a role in the assassination of his brother. You know, Tommy Lee Jones queer in JFK, Clay Shaw or Bertrand. Makes ya think!

Mickeymouse523
10-26-2004, 09:47 PM
About the storm drain, I personally dont think that, that is a plausible place, they have done trial runs of that and basically it would be a shot in the dark because you could not see what you were shooting at.

More about the magic bullet, I completly agree that one bulllet can cause wounds in 2 differnt people, I dont buy that it can stop in mid air for like i said before around 1.7 seconds and change the direction it is going.

I think that there was a connection in New Orleans, again I am still researching this part, and I think that Clay Shaw/ Bretrand probably were involved just based on the fact that they both had proven ties to Oswald and Ruby...

Again all the above is JMO...

Mickeymouse523
11-15-2004, 10:47 PM
Just curious if anyone watched the Discovery Channel Special, about the magic bullet?? It was very interesting, and I would like to know what other people thought about it...

Doubro
11-16-2004, 04:10 AM
Just curious if anyone watched the Discovery Channel Special, about the magic bullet?? It was very interesting, and I would like to know what other people thought about it...
Actually , I just did watch the MBT ( Magic Bullet theory) explanation and attempted vindication by the Discovery channel.

It seems marginally clear that the producers started with an assumption that the MBT was correct and were looking for experiments and experts that would back them up.

Some of their evidence may hold water, some are simply conjecture based on computer models that are about as accurate as a WWII Italian Carcano on a moving target. Not very...

The last experiment was the most telling as it claims to prove the MBT is not only reasonable , but probable.

I don't know how many different and non-successful attempts they had to make to get a bullet to look the way they wanted, but I think each time they shot the full metal jacket through bone, the bullet was moderately deformed. We know that at the very least, there was a broken wrist.

Even though it's possible to have a "pristine" bullet emerge from "soft tissue", the final bullet they point to in the Discovery channels MBT biased show is significantly more deformed than exbt 399 or whatever it was called. They hang their hat on the possiblity that the bullet may have just glanced or graised hard parts of the body.

I don't know that much about JFK's assasination, but I have shot more than a few rifles and know that FMJ rounds are still soft lead underneath and will deform when hitting bone or other hard material. To point to the warped bullet they ended up with as "proof" of MBT was a little absurd.

They also took pains to shoot into the lengthwise end of a wood post at point blank range, attempting to show how tough the copper FMJ casing is, but I wondered why they didn't shoot against the grain of the wood.?. maybe into a dead stump and then fish the round out. Instead they shot into the wood the way someone would send an axe into wood to cleave it in half, which more than likely split the woods grain while keeping the shape of the round in tact.

Lets see them shoot AGAINST the grain and duplicate that bit of entertainment. The two glaring inaccuracies in the Discovery experiment is that Lee Harvey was shooting at a moving target , and it was also a live target. There are two conditions that we'ren't checked and were not really given any acknowledgement.

Sure, bullets can keep their shape sometimes, but with the blunt shape of the Italian rounds that were used in the rifle, it would be more likely to deform severly, considering the velocity and what it was hiting. Having been shot though neck , back and/or chest, ... and a wrist, it's probable that the bullet was either mushroomed or twisted unlike the fairly clean projectile that looked as though someone shot it into a jello mold.

My opinion only... your milage may vary.

Doubro:waitasec:

Dark Knight
11-16-2004, 07:39 AM
About the storm drain, I personally dont think that, that is a plausible place, they have done trial runs of that and basically it would be a shot in the dark because you could not see what you were shooting at.

More about the magic bullet, I completly agree that one bulllet can cause wounds in 2 differnt people, I dont buy that it can stop in mid air for like i said before around 1.7 seconds and change the direction it is going.

I think that there was a connection in New Orleans, again I am still researching this part, and I think that Clay Shaw/ Bretrand probably were involved just based on the fact that they both had proven ties to Oswald and Ruby...

Again all the above is JMO...
I've also seen the tests on the storm drain where they said it was impossible to see the motorcade from there or to even get a straight shot off from there. Highly unlikely location.

Richard
11-16-2004, 12:20 PM
The science of ballistics can prove some things, but certainly not other. For instance, you cannot "prove" or disprove what shape a bullet will be when it has expended its energy in a target.
What type and shape of material the bullet strikes, what it hits first, second, and third, what the distance was, what the exact amount of powder was, and its age, etc are all variable factors that enter into the mix.
Regardless of all those variables, one thing is fairly certain, and that after exiting the body of President Kennedy, the bullet had to go somewhere. That "somewhere" would have been in the general direction of Governor John Connally who was seated on a jump seat forward and below Kennedy.
The problem which faced the Warren Commission investigators was to reconcile the various wounds and bullet strikes with the number allegedly fired from the rifle of the Lone Gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Witness testimony differed widely as to number of shots and direction. The main piece of evidence used to "solve" the crime was an 8mm home movie taken by Abraham Zapruder of the event. A movie camera takes pictures at a set speed, usually between 16 and 18 frames per second. Taking still pictures from that movie, the commission tried to determine exactly when and where the shots struck. Their choice and interpretation of specific frames and subsequent reconstruction of the crime was where they erred and where most of the criticism comes from regarding the Single Bullet Theory, aka the "Magic Bullet Theory".
The Warren Commission Report stated that the First bullet fired missed the entire limosine. The Second (Magic Bullet) shot, they say, hit Kennedy and Connally, and the Third shot hit Kennedy in the head, killing him.
The big problem with most folks is the apparent time lapse between Kennedy's first reaction to that of Connally. Connally himself always believed that Kennedy was struck by the first bullet and that he was struck by the second.
What may well have happened is that Kennedy could have been struck by a riccocheting bullet fragment from the First shot, causing him to react in a startled way, and to bring his hands toward his throat or face. Only two frames prior to Connally's reaction to his wounds, Kennedy also reacts in a violent manner to the Second bullet striking close to his spine. Kennedy's hands are already close to his throat, but suddenly his hands become fists, and both elbows fly upward. A fraction of a second later, Connally reacts to the same shot.
The Third shot has always been the mystery shot for me. Given the accepted behavior of the second shot and the emergence of such a slightly deformed bullet, How could the Third shot fragment so badly and cause such a terrible wound?

Richard
11-16-2004, 12:37 PM
The Storm Drain Scenario Theory predates the X-Files by more than 35 years. I first saw that in a magazine article about 1966. The article put one sniper in the Texas School Book Depository, another on the Daltex building, and a third in the storm drain. According to that article, the guy in the storm drain shot Kennedy in the throat from the front. As mentioned already in this thread, such a shot would have been close to impossible. I do not recall the magazine, but it might have been Life, Look, Post, or possibly True. It was one of the larger size magazines, and it included an artist's conception sketch of the crime.

Mickeymouse523
11-16-2004, 09:27 PM
I am going to chnage the subject and ask what you all thought of the Badgeman analysis... I thought that it was interesting that they did not even mention that he may have been kneeling. Becuase if he had been he would have most likely been around 2 feet tall.

Lili
11-18-2004, 11:46 PM
Thanks for the link Dark Knight! How well I remember that sad day. I have always felt that it was a conspiracy and Oswald was a patsy, but as for the 'lone gunman', I just don't buy it. Too many theories, everyone 'sees' something differently. We will probably never know the truth.

Doubro
11-20-2004, 03:20 AM
[QUOTE=Richard]The science of ballistics can prove some things, but certainly not other. For instance, you cannot "prove" or disprove what shape a bullet will be when it has expended its energy in a target.
What type and shape of material the bullet strikes, what it hits first, second, and third, what the distance was, what the exact amount of powder was, and its age, etc are all variable factors that enter into the mix.
QUOTE]

Ah, Beg to differ. The fact is that you can show by tests exactly the level of deformity you can expect a bullet to undergo with all variables considered.

The Discovery special actually showed in it's final experiment, that the same exact bullet , same batch even, with the same charge was clearly more deformed than the "magic Bullet" when it was shot through a bone encased in ballistic gel which was carefully simulated to mimic a human body.

They simply ignored the increased bullet deformity ( the central question to me about the exibited ballistic evidence), dismissing it by saying that it's probable that the Magic bullet must have simply "graized" the hard part of the targets... the Presidents vertebra and Connelly's wrist , (which I think was shattered, right?)

I believe that the shot could have happened the way that they theorized.

I do not believe that exhibit that they came up with was the actual bullet. It was too consistent with a round shot into gel or other soft targets. This bullet being the lynchpin of the whole scenario, it makes me again wonder about the credibility of the final results of the official investigation, if not the hypothetical validity of the magic bullet theory itself.

Yeah... it's possible ... It could of happened that way, just... not very likely with that bullet, ( in my opinion of course ).

Richard
11-20-2004, 07:57 AM
I do not believe that exhibit that they came up with was the actual bullet. It was too consistent with a round shot into gel or other soft targets. This bullet being the lynchpin of the whole scenario, it makes me again wonder about the credibility of the final results of the official investigation, if not the hypothetical validity of the magic bullet theory itself.

Yeah... it's possible ... It could of happened that way, just... not very likely with that bullet, ( in my opinion of course ).

Many others have argued this same point - which opens the whole can of worms. Obviously this particular bullet was the one found at Parkland Hospital. It is the one that the Warren Commission foccused on in coming up with their theory. If it had been another bullet that made the wounds -where did it go?

Any bullet or bullets fired into Kennedy or Connally would have either remained in their bodies, or would have exited inside the limousine, possibly causing damage to the vehicle interior and/or remaining inside the vehicle for recovery.

The Commission Exhibit bullet was reportedly found on Connally's gurney and cleaned of all blood by someone at the hospital before being handed over to a Secret Service agent at the Hospital. In all the confusion, that person's name was never taken. So, from the start, there is a problem with the chain of custody.

But think of all the many unforseeable factors that would have had to go into such a conspiracy to be able to remove the real bullet and plant a fake. Not that some conspiracy buffs haven't tried to explain it in this manner. (Some claim that Jack Ruby was at Parkland and planted it.) How could anyone know in advance to have a bullet waiting at the hospital? And wouldn't planting one there potentially add an additional piece of unaccountable evidence? After all, a person standing by with the fake would have no idea how many shots were fired, nature of wounds, etc.

Ballistic tests into geletin are designed to try to simulate various things, but just look at any collection of bullets fired into geletin (or any kind of material). No two are exactly the same.

You are correct to state that the single bullet theory is an extremely important part of the Warren Commission's final report. If one bullet did NOT wound both men, then there would have had to have been more than one rifleman, - not a conclusion they wanted to make. They, however, had the evidence to deal with, and came up with their theory.

Their biggest problem was that they stated that it was the FIRST shot which struck the men, and that the SECOND shot missed. In fact, the most likely scenario was that the first shot was deflected and riccocheted, while the second shot was the one which hit both men. Trying to make the first shot the one that hit, compresses the amount of time that the shooter would have had, and it gives you the unlikely "gap" of time between Kennedy's first reaction to that of Connally.

Pharlap
12-17-2004, 07:20 AM
It's the mystery of the 20th Century, who killed JFK? Did the murdered Dallas Police officer have a role in it? Here is a VERY interesting investigation into the timeline that day for Dallas Police Officer Tippit, who was later believed to be murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm

My opinion? Oswald was the lone gunman. All theories about places for a second gunman to shoot from were recently disproved in a Discovery Channel investigation. ABC World News Tonight also did an investigation and found that the Warren Comission was correct. And as for shooting FROM the grassy knoll, I don't think so! Most everyone on the ground seemed to know about the shots coming from the Book Depository 6 stories up and quite a ways away, but NO one noticed someone shooting a rifle from a grassy knoll right there on the street with people all around???? That defies all logic. Was he put up to it by someone else? I think so. Most likely a Mob hit. Was Officer Tippit involved? He sure acted suspiciously, that day, and maybe Oswald had to silence him, just like Ruby had to silence Oswald (and that is typical Mob practice, not only kill the person, but then kill the people who killed the person, to ensure no one was around as a witness.) And they likely also killed Monroe. But, did someone put them up to it, or did they do it on their own? I look forward to reading the various theories, and maybe we can fill each other in on things we have heard that others might not have. Take it away, Sleuthers!!!!I remember when the late kenedy was shot....
People in the Chicago area, thought Hoover was involved with the set up.
Nothing came of it.

If you also remember, everyone that was close to the case, they died unusual.

There was a movie a number of years later that aired but was taken off,
then re-released years later.....
"The Parallax View" 1974 was it's first release. Warren Beaty was in it.
If you can find it, a MUST see.;)
It's all about that day and what happened in the following few years.....


http://www.allmovie.com/cg/avg.dll?p=avg&sql=A37236

http://www.jiffysquid.com/filmreviews/parallaxview.html

Kathy C
12-23-2004, 03:41 PM
There is a book called Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong about 2 men using the same identity -- Lee Harvey Oswald. You can purchase it at jfkresearch.com. This will tell you all you need to know about Oswald. Kennedy was killed by wealthy, wealthy oil barons who used mafia hitmen and CIA-trained Cuban exiles. Johnson covered up the plot. He had the Secret Service wash the limo while Kennedy was still in the hospital. Told the Warren Commission to come up with the lone nut theory. Hoover knew also apparently. Kennedy was killed because he wanted to pull out of Viet Nam. He was going to do away with the CIA. He wasn't global in his vision; not New World Order. Johnson knew the night before that they were going to go through with it. As did melancholy Nixon. No Secret Service surrounded Kennedy's limo. There were shooters from the Dal-Tex building, the grassy knoll, also on Stemmons Freeway and at the Trade Mart. He wasn't getting out alive.
Kathy C

Pharlap
12-24-2004, 03:56 AM
I remember when the late kenedy was shot....
People in the Chicago area, thought Hoover was involved with the set up.
Nothing came of it.

If you also remember, everyone that was close to the case, they died unusual.

There was a movie a number of years later that aired but was taken off,
then re-released years later.....
"The Parallax View" 1974 was it's first release. Warren Beaty was in it.
If you can find it, a MUST see.;)
It's all about that day and what happened in the following few years.....


http://www.allmovie.com/cg/avg.dll?p=avg&sql=A37236

http://www.jiffysquid.com/filmreviews/parallaxview.html

If you don't like to read much then watch this movie...
Has it all that's in the book.....

Kathy C
12-26-2004, 12:10 PM
Oswald was told to stay by the phone outside the lunch room. The first cop on the scene was supposed to shoot him, but there was another person by Oswald. So J.D. Tippet was radioed to find Oswald, who had sneaked out of the building, and kill him. Lee Oswald ran into Tippet. He was part of the conspiracy against the patsy, Harvey. Lee shot Tippet as Tippet obviously thought he was Harvey Oswald. Lee left a wallet near the body incriminating Harvey. Then there was the wild rush to the Texas Movie Theater. And Harvey was arrested. Again, my main source was Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong.

Kathy C
12-26-2004, 12:31 PM
In a related matter, I thought the members would like to know about Chappaquiddick. Below is a chapter from Robert Cutler's book, The Taking of America 1-2-3. Chapter 7
The Control of the Kennedys
Threats & Chappaquiddick

Chappaquiddick. A careful examination of the real evidence in this event shows that Ted Kennedy was framed in the killing of Mary Joe Kopechne and then his life and his children's lives threatened if he ever told the truth about what happened. The facts in the case and the conclusions that can be drawn from them are contained in a book by Boston researcher Robert Cutler.[2] (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html#fn2)
Ted's withdrawal from the presidential race in November 1975. It is a fact that all of his and Robert's children were being protected by the Secret Service for five days in November 1975. A threat had been made against the children's lives unless he officially announced his withdrawal. He made the announcement and has stuck to it ever since. The Secret Service protection ended the day after he made the announcement.
It does not seem likely that Senator Kennedy would withdraw from the race because of a threat from a lone nut or from some obscure group. He remembers the 1965 threat and Chappaquiddick very well. He knows about the Power Control Group and he knows their enormous capability. He knows what they did to his brothers. He has no choice but to hope that somehow, sometime, the Group will be exposed. But he dares not let them believe he would ever have anything to do with it. Publicly he will always have to support the Warren Commission and continue to state that he will not run for president. Privately he is forced to ask his closest friends and his relatives not to get involved with new investigations, and to help protect his children. Some of them know the truth. Others do not, and are puzzled by his behavior. They go along with it under the assumption that he has good and sufficient reasons not to open the can of worms represented by the conspiracies in his brother's deaths.
The Power Control Group faced up to the Ted Kennedy and Kennedy family problem very early. They used the threat against the Kennedy children's lives very effectively between 1963 and 1968 to silence Bobby and the rest of the family and friends who knew the truth. It was necessary to assassinate Bobby in 1968 because with the power of the presidency he could have prevented the Group from harming the children. When Teddy began making moves to run for president in 1969 for the 1972 election, the Group decided to put some real action behind their threats. Killing Teddy in 1969 would have been too much. They selected a new way of eliminating him as a candidate. They framed him with the death of a young girl, and threw sexual overtones in for good measure.
Here is what happened according to Cutler's analysis of the evidence. The Group hired several men and at least one woman to be at Chappaquiddick during the weekend of the yacht race and the planned party on the island. They ambushed Ted and Mary Jo after they left the cottage and knocked Ted out with blows to his head and body. They took the unconscious or semi-conscious Kennedy to Martha's Vineyard and deposited him in his hotel room. Another group took Mary Jo to the bridge in Ted's car, force fed her with a knock out potion of alcoholic beverage, placed her in the back seat, and caused the car to accelerate off the side of the bridge into the water. They broke the windows on one side of the car to insure the entry of water; then they watched the car until they were sure Mary Jo would not escape.
Mary Jo actually regained consciousness and pushed her way to the top of the car (which was actually the bottom of the car -- it had landed on its roof) and died from asphyxiation. The group with Teddy revived him early in the morning and let him know he had a problem. Possibly they told him that Mary Jo had been kidnapped. They told him his children would be killed if he told anyone what had happened and that he would hear from them. On Chappaquiddick, the other group made contact with Markham and Gargan, Ted's cousin and lawyer. They told both men that Mary Jo was at the bottom of the river and that Ted would have to make up a story about it, not revealing the existence of the group. One of the men resembled Ted and his voice sounded something like Ted's. Markham and Gargan were instructed to go the the Vineyard on the morning ferry, tell Ted where Mary Jo was, and come back to the island to wait for a phone call at a pay station near the ferry on the Chappaquiddick side.
The two men did as they were told and Ted found out what had happened to Mary Jo that morning. The three men returned to the pay phone and received their instructions to concoct a story about the "accident" and to report it to the police. The threat against Ted's children was repeated at that time.
Ted, Markham and Gargan went right away to police chief Arena's office on the Vineyard where Ted reported the so-called "accident." Almost at the same time scuba diver John Farror was pulling Mary Jo out of the water, since two boys who had gone fishing earlier that morning had spotted the car and reported it.
Ted called together a small coterie of friends and advisors including family lawyer Burke Marshall, Robert MacNamara, Ted Sorenson, and others. They met on Squaw Island near the Kennedy compound at Hyannisport for three days. At the end of that time they had manufactured the story which Ted told on TV, and later at the inquest. Bob Cutler calls the story, "the shroud." Even the most cursory examination of the story shows it was full of holes and an impossible explanation of what happened. Ted's claim that he made the wrong turn down the dirt road toward the bridge by mistake is an obvious lie. His claim that he swam the channel back to Martha's Vineyard is not believable. His description of how he got out of the car under water and then dove down to try to rescue Mary Jo is impossible. Markham and Gargan's claims that they kept diving after Mary Jo are also unbelievable.
The evidence for the Cutler scenario is substantial. It begins with the marks on the bridge and the position of the car in the water. The marks show that the car was standing still on the bridge and then accelerated off the edge, moving at a much higher speed than Kennedy claimed. The distance the car travelled in the air also confirms this. The damage to the car on two sides and on top plus the damage to the windshield and the rear view mirror stanchion [3] (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html#fn3) prove that some of the damage had to have been inflicted before the car left the bridge.
The blood on the back and on the sleeves of Mary Jo's blouse proves that a wound was inflicted before she left the bridge.[4] (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html#fn4) The alcohol in her bloodstream proves she was drugged, since all witnesses testified she never drank and did not drink that night. The fact that she was in the back seat when her body was recovered indicates that is where she was when the car hit the water. There was no way she could have dived downward against the inrushing water and moved from the front to the back seat underneath the upside-down seat back.
The wounds on the back of Ted Kennedy's skull, those just above his ear and the large bump on the top indicate he was knocked out. His actions at the hotel the next morning show he was not aware of Mary Jo's death until Markham and Gargan arrived. The trip to the pay phone on Chappaquiddick can only be explained by his receiving a call there, not making one. There were plenty of pay phones in or near Ted's hotel if he needed to make a private call. The tides in the channel and the direction in which Ted claimed he swam do not match. In addition it would have been a superhuman feat to have made it across the channel (as proven by several professionals who subsequently tried it).
Deputy Sheriff Christopher Look's testimony, coupled with the testimony of Ray LaRosa and two Lyons girls, proves that there were two people in Ted's car with Mary Jo at 12:45 PM. The three party members walking along the road south toward the cottage confirmed the time that Mr. Look drove by. He stopped to ask if they needed a ride. Look says that just prior to that he encountered Ted's car parked facing north at the juncture of the main road and the dirt road. It was on a short extension of the north-south section of the road junction to the north of the "T". He says he saw a man driving, a woman in the seat beside him, and what he thought was another woman lying on the back seat. He remembered a portion of the license plate which matched Ted's car, as did the description of the car. Markham, Gargan and Ted's driver's testimony show that someone they talked to in the pitch black night sounded like Ted and was about his height and build.
None of the above evidence was ever explained by Ted or by anyone else at the inquest or at the hearing on the case demanded by district attorney Edward Dinis. No autopsy was ever allowed on Mary Jo's body (her family objected), and Ted made it possible to fly her body home for burial rather quickly. Kennedy haters have seized upon Chappaquiddick to enlarge the sexual image now being promoted of both Ted and Jack Kennedy. Books like "Teddy Bare" take full advantage of the situation.
Just which operatives in the Power Control Group at the high levels or the lower levels were on Chappaquiddick Island? No definite evidence has surfaced as yet, except for an indication that there was at least one woman and at least three men, one of whom resembled Ted Kennedy and who sounded like him in the darkness. However, two pieces of testimony in the Watergate hearings provide significant clues as to which of the known JFK case conspirators may have been there.
E. Howard Hunt told of a strange trip to Hyannisport to see a local citizen there about the Chappaquiddick incident. Hunt's cover story on this trip was that he was digging up dirt on Ted Kennedy for use in the 1972 campaign. The story does not make much sense if one questions why Hunt would have to wear a disguise, including his famous red wig, and to use a voice-alteration device to make himself sound like someone else. If, on the other hand, Hunt's purpose was to return to the scene of his crime just to make sure that no one who might have seen his group at the bridge or elsewhere would talk, then the disguise and the voice box make sense.
The other important testimony came from Tony Ulasewicz who said he was ordered by the Plumbers to fly immediately to Chappaquiddick and dig up dirt on Ted. The only problem Tony has is that, according to his testimony, he arrived early on the morning of the "accident", before the whole incident had been made public. Ulasewicz is the right height and weight to resemble Kennedy and with a CIA voice-alteration device he presumably could be made to sound like him. There is a distinct possibility that Hunt and Tony were there when it happened.
The threats by the Power Control Group, the frame-up at Chappaquiddick, and the murders of Jack and Bobby Kennedy cannot have failed to take their toll on all of the Kennedys. Rose, Ted, Jackie, Ethel and the other close family members must be very tired of it all by now. They can certainly not be blamed for hoping it will all go away. Investigations like those proposed by Henry Gonzalez and Thomas Downing only raised the spectre of the powerful Control Group taking revenge by kidnapping some of the seventeen children.
It was no wonder that a close Kennedy friend and ally in California, Representative Burton, said that he would oppose the Downing and Gonzalez resolutions unless Ted Kennedy put his stamp of approval on them. While the sympathies of every decent American go out to them, the future of our country and the freedom of the people to control their own destiny through the election process mean more than the lives of all the Kennedys put together. If John Kennedy were alive today he would probably make the same statement.
John Dean summed it up when he said to Richard Nixon as recorded on the White House tapes in 1973: "If Teddy knew the bear trap he was walking into at Chappaquiddick. . . ."[5] (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html#fn5)

The fabulous Jackie -- Christian Cafarakis -- Productions de Paris -- 1972 You the Jury -- Robert Cutler -- Self Published -- 1974 A rope attached to the stick which held the Oldsmobile throttle wide open caught the drivers rear view mirror and tore it loose so that it was hanging by the rear bolt. There was no other mark on the left side of the car. A sliver of glass from two broken windows no doubt caused this bleeding since Mary Jo was already face down and unconscious in the rear seat. Since there was no autopsy this clean cut went unnoticed by the embalmers. On page 121, White House Tapes Paperback Edition, published by New York Times

Richard
12-27-2004, 02:55 PM
The Chappaquidick story is certainly a fascinating one, with all the elements of a good historical novel, weaving in all the known facts with a host of unseen characters planning every last detail of the murder to make it look like an accident - all to make poor Ted look bad enough to not run for President.

There was a lot of fiction being written and acted out as early as the day following Mary Jo's death. Only that was not fiction written by a novelist or by some shadowy group. It was fiction being made up by Ted Kennedy and his advisors.

If some group was going to go through all the trouble of killing someone and making it look like an accident, why didn't they just leave Ted in the car too? Ted just did not need any help to screw things up. All politics aside, most people looking at the evidence would conclude that Ted drove his own car off the bridge and into the water, then saved his own hide, leaving Mary Jo to die. True, there are a lot of unanswered questions about Chappaquidick, but this story is pretty far fetched in my opinion.

No matter how you look at it. Ted Kennedy is his own worst enemy. He is truly a "Could-Have-Been". But he blew it.

Kathy C
12-27-2004, 09:15 PM
I happened to work in the Ricoh office building adjourning the Caldwell Airport and long before 9/11 worried that a plane would come crashing into the building. Which has nothing to do with this post.
Anyway. Some researchers believe JFK Jr's plane was tampered with at that insignificant airport. It was a barometric bomb, which meant as Jr's plane descended near Martha's Vineyard, the bomb exploded. Several people, including a doctor, saw an explosion in the sky in the area where Jr's plane would have been.
Proof was the debris washed up on shore immediately, whereas if the plane had crashed into the water, much of it may have remained intact.
The sister-in-law's luggage; her business card. And the quick cremation and burial at sea.
The motive for the bomb? Hillary Clinton wanted to run as Senator of New York and JFK jr wanted to as well. If Jr rose to that position, he was going to look into the murder of his father. The powers that be killed John Kennedy Jr. Recall all the weird deaths during the Clinton presidency. When are people going to learn the President is not the head man?
After the tragedy, which could not be further investigated, Caroline supposedly said she wanted to look into who killed her father. Ted Kennedy supposedly answered, "If you start with that, we're going to put you into a mental institution."
Source: jfkresearch.com
Kathy C

Richard
12-28-2004, 01:08 PM
John Kennedy Jr. was a fairly new and inexperienced pilot. He had broken his leg and it was still in a cast when he flew his last flight. My initial feeling was that he managed to stall the aircraft - possibly due to overloading or incorrect weight and balance - and that his attempts to recover control from the stall and resultant spin were not sufficient. His broken leg in a cast would have significantly hindered this attempt to manage controls in such a situation. I believe that the accident investigators later came to a similar conclusion.

There has been a rising threat of air terrorism involving bombs, hijackers, suicide pilots and by individuals with shoulder fired rockets. Consideration is given in all air crash investigations to the possibility that a bomb or rocket may have been involved. The most common cause of air crashes, however, is usually ruled "pilot error".

Kathy C
12-29-2004, 04:36 PM
If it was pilot error, why did Ted Kennedy arrange for an immediate cremation for John Jr and the 2 Bessette girls (along with their parents' approval). Sounds to me like something was covered up.

Kathy C

Kathy C
12-29-2004, 08:42 PM
There is only one judge in the end. For all of us. I don't think Ted Kennedy has anything to worry about when his time comes. When he dies -- which I hope is a long way off -- I bet the real story will come out.
Kathy C

monkalup
01-30-2005, 12:44 AM
Thanks for the link Dark Knight! How well I remember that sad day. I have always felt that it was a conspiracy and Oswald was a patsy, but as for the 'lone gunman', I just don't buy it. Too many theories, everyone 'sees' something differently. We will probably never know the truth.


Remember Frank Sturgis of Watergate fame? he said the same thing...he worked for Nixon even then

Pepper
01-30-2005, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Lili
Thanks for the link Dark Knight! How well I remember that sad day. I have always felt that it was a conspiracy and Oswald was a patsy, but as for the 'lone gunman', I just don't buy it. Too many theories, everyone 'sees' something differently. We will probably never know the truth.
I remember it well. I was in high school at the time.

I have seen a couple of TV programs that make a good case for JFK's assination being a mob hit because of how tough RFK as AG was on mob crime, after the mob was influential in getting JFK elected. Mob felt double-crossed. Makes sense to me. I just don't see Oswald having that strong a motive to do it alone.

Dark Knight
01-30-2005, 08:03 PM
There was a book not too long ago implicating Jackie in JFK's death (and possibly Marlyn Monroe's) likely as revenge for their affair. What do you all think of that possibility?

Dark Knight
01-30-2005, 08:08 PM
I remember it well. I was in high school at the time.

I have seen a couple of TV programs that make a good case for JFK's assination being a mob hit because of how tough RFK as AG was on mob crime, after the mob was influential in getting JFK elected. Mob felt double-crossed. Makes sense to me. I just don't see Oswald having that strong a motive to do it alone.
I think Oswald could have done it alone, and some experts have recreated it and proven it's possibility, but that doesnt preclude it being a mob hit. He simply was the hit man, paid a lot of money, perhaps, and when Officer Tibbit didn't kill him to silence him, Ruby was sent to do it. That's typical mob MO, kill the hired killers and maybe even kill the killers of the killers. They do it all the time. (I have LE in my family who know about the mob quite well.)

Pepper
01-31-2005, 11:54 AM
I think Oswald could have done it alone, and some experts have recreated it and proven it's possibility, but that doesnt preclude it being a mob hit. He simply was the hit man, paid a lot of money, perhaps, and when Officer Tibbit didn't kill him to silence him, Ruby was sent to do it. That's typical mob MO, kill the hired killers and maybe even kill the killers of the killers. They do it all the time. (I have LE in my family who know about the mob quite well.)I didn't mean to infer that Oswald wasn't the lone gunman. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Seems like there is much controversy surrounding the "single bullet" theory. Maybe there was a second shooter, then again maybe not. However, the mob hit is a very real possibility, and it makes a lot of sense to me.

The last TV program I saw on this indicated that Earl Warren and Gerald Ford were sent to Texas to interview Ruby in jail. Ruby begged them to take him to Washington DC and he would tell them everything. This indicated Ruby was fearful of staying in Texas if he spilled the beans. They didn't move him.

Kathy C
01-31-2005, 11:59 AM
Did Lee Harvey Oswald create the Warren Commission? Did LHO tell the Secret Service to clean the limo outside of Parkland Hospital and thereby destroy the evidence of the crime scene? There are photos of this. Did LHO tell the Secret Service not to go near Kennedy's limo in the motorcade? The passengers had no protection. Did LHO tell the "Cuban" to wave his white-sleeved arm as a signal for the shooting to start again, or the limo to come to a stop? Did LHO tell the Umbrella Man to open and close his umbrella a few times when Kennedy neared? (Was the Umbrella a CIA weapon, which shot a poisoned dart at Kennedy's throat?) Did LHO know the 3 tramps -- possible shooters? Did LHO have Zapruder, who suffered from Vertigo, climb up onto the 4 foot pedestal and film the Assassination?
In my opinion, there is no way LHO shot President Kennedy and Gov. Connelly. The shots came from the Dal-Tex building, the grassy knoll and possibly from the triple underpass.

Kathy C

joellegirl
01-31-2005, 12:41 PM
Sorry to backtrack to the Chappaquiddick part of this thread, but I just read it and one part said that Ted Kennedy withdrew from the presidential race in Nov 1975 and has stuck to it ever since. He ran again in 1980. Maybe I am missing something but I'm just curious as I well remember him running in 1980.

Pepper
01-31-2005, 01:41 PM
There was a book not too long ago implicating Jackie in JFK's death (and possibly Marlyn Monroe's) likely as revenge for their affair. What do you all think of that possibility?Naaah. That's just way too far fetched.

Dark Knight
02-01-2005, 06:39 AM
Naaah. That's just way too far fetched.
She was, even after death, awfully darn secretive, despite her being a part of history. What was she hiding? And couldn't she have easily planted a "pristine" bullet in the car? And where the heck was she going when the shots were fired? Just questions to ponder, not accusations, per se, that have lent themselves to this theory, in some ways. And, did she have motive, means, and opportunity?

poco
02-01-2005, 09:07 AM
Just a little tidbit of info here - I worked at Parkland Hospital (the hospital where they took JFK), but way after he was assasinated. I worked in Pathology and Autopsy - probably around the early 1970's.....

Just thought I'd throw that in here because right now I don't have much else to add.

Pepper
02-01-2005, 12:29 PM
She was, even after death, awfully darn secretive, despite her being a part of history. What was she hiding? And couldn't she have easily planted a "pristine" bullet in the car? And where the heck was she going when the shots were fired? Just questions to ponder, not accusations, per se, that have lent themselves to this theory, in some ways. And, did she have motive, means, and opportunity?No way! Here's my opinion. The Kennedy family KNOWS why JFK was assinated. They are well aware of the mob connection and the reason for the hit. But they DON'T WANT US TO KNOW. That is why they've never been too interested in any other theories and have accepted the Warren Commission Report at face value. They were way too interested in protecting the reputation of the family and did not want anyone to make the connection that maybe old Joe bought some votes from the mob and RFK didn't obey his daddy's commands to keep his hands off them.

Pepper
02-01-2005, 01:47 PM
Just a little tidbit of info here - I worked at Parkland Hospital (the hospital where they took JFK), but way after he was assasinated. I worked in Pathology and Autopsy - probably around the early 1970's.....

Just thought I'd throw that in here because right now I don't have much else to add.
Poco, did you sneek a peek at JFK's records while you were there?

poco
02-03-2005, 08:10 AM
Poco, did you sneek a peek at JFK's records while you were there?

Ya know, I didn't even think about it, but I'd bet you $1,000,000 there are no records at that hospital - I'm sure they are all securely locked away somewhere else. Interesting though, wonder where they are???

Shadow205
01-22-2006, 02:32 AM
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death2.txt

This is an actual death investigation report whiich was exceptionally cleared as a suicide.
<snip>
Also found in the case was a two-
page personal affidavit which indicated it was written on March 11,
1977, in Brussels, Belgium, which made reference to his friendship
with LEE HARVEY OSWALD, who assassinated President John F. Kennedy, in
Dallas, Texas, on 22 November, 1963. Found in the deceased's pants
pocket was newspaper article from the March 20, 1977 edition of the
Dallas Morning News, which indicated that the deceased may possibly
have been involved in, or have knowledge of, some type of conspiracy
in the above-mentioned assassination. This, coupled with the fact
that an investigator from the U. S. House of Representatives Committee
on Assassinations had been at the residence earlier looking for the
victim, indicated to this writer that the death of this individual
could possibly be of major importance.


The report is very long but well worth the read. Was this man really involved in the assasination?

Richard
01-22-2006, 03:04 AM
[QUOTE=Shadow205...The report is very long but well worth the read. Was this man really involved in the assasination?[/QUOTE]
George de Mohrenschildt is the person in question. It was established early on that George and his wife were acquaintenances of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina. The couple were Russian emigrees and were involved with Russian social groups. They took an interest in Oswald and his family, and became involved with getting Lee jobs and helped arrange housing.

de Mohrenschildt may have been involved in work with the CIA. His death in 1977 came just before he was due to speak to the Congressional Investigators appointed to re-examine the Kennedy assassination in 1977.

mysteriew
01-22-2006, 04:07 AM
According to the above report, an investigator from the House
Committee on Assassinations came to the house that day, while he was out to another appoinment.
The other appointment was with a writer who was writing an article for Reader's Digest on President Kennedy's assassination. Note: The writer recieved a request from the victim for the interview. The victim broke several appts with the writer, before finally keeping this interview.

KarlK
03-22-2007, 12:41 AM
The book is a fascinating one and comes to the conclusion/theory that one of the Secret Service men in the follow up car may have accidently fired a round from an AR-15 rifle during the assassination, and that it was a bullet from that rifle that hit Kennedy.

Whether or not that's how it happened this theory at least has the merit of somewhat explaining the conspiracy-like atmosphere that still surrounds the Kennedy assassination to this day. Even if it was purely accidental a blunder of such magnitude on the part of a Secret Service officer, if exposed, could have put the very existence of the Secret Service in jeopardy, at least with regards to handling the President's personal security. This assignment is coveted by other agencies such as the NSA but in Kennedy's day it was no big secret that Hoover wanted the job for the FBI, knowing it would allow him better access to (and more control over) the President himself, both of which he had little of with Kennedy who distrusted him.

Given these factors it's not that hard to conceive that the Secret Service, suddenly thrown into a life or death situation, had LBJ and Warren, neither of them a Hoover fan, convinced that the truth should be kept under lids. Since they had a crackpot on hand who likely had fired a shot at Kennedy, why not make him (Oswald) the best marksman the land had ever produced? Whether or not Oswald had missed was of secondary importance, since the autopsy results would not be released to the public. At the time it probably didn't occur to the Administration that some members of the media would inevitably spot the telltale signs of a cover-up and draw the wrong conclusions, invoking a much more sinister plot than a self-preserving move on the part of the Secret Service. Politicians rarely admit to their errors, so they stuck to their guns despite the fact that their actions would feed conspiracy theorists for decades, something I'm sure they would have preferred not to see happen.

Just a theory among hundreds, of course. I don't think we will will ever know the full details of what really happened, and it's not that important anyway.

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:17 PM
The driver shot JFK clearly and obviously but the zapruder film needed to be picked apart and analyzed by someone and that someone turned out to be me.

Nix film close-up shows Greer's left arm crossing over.

I got this gif from this clip. Start it at 1:09 and see Greer quickly moving his left arm over his shoulder in unison with the headshot. The nix film was not shown close-up but when this sequence is zoomed in on the limo, this whopper is revealed. The goons covered those movements with fakery in the zfilm but could not or didn't bother with the nix film.
<mod snip>
THE FAKE GREY STREAK covered Greer's arm movement in the zfilm and the nix film proves that alteration beyond any doubt. Case Closed, finally.
<mod snip>
The driver killed Kennedy and the Nix film provides conclusive proof to this inevitable truth.

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:18 PM
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/
FRAME 241 showing both hands close together right before he passes gun.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/WallPaint315.jpg
Greer passes gun and frame 258 showing covered gun by driver's door.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/gifsoup.gif
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/Gifs/WallPaint728.jpg

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:20 PM
Mary took her pic at zframe 309 and in it, the fake blob of white is entirely missing from Roy's head because it was added during alteration to cover the gun over Greer's shoulder. Connally's reflection is accurately depicted in both the pic and film for authenticity.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/WallPaint615.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/WallPaint247-1.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/WallPaint601.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/WallPaint249-1.jpg
The fake reflection was NOT added to the nix or muchmore films. THERE IS NO OTHER SIDE TO THE TOP OF THE HEAD.

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:22 PM
So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.

GREER FIRED RIGHT OVER CONNALLY'S HEAD and when he realized Greer fired it, he hit the floor, terrified. WATCH THE GOVERNOR.
<modsnip>

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:22 PM
Connally said he saw the fatal shot and quickly corrected himself but his reaction when looking at Greer proves he slipped up. Watch him hit the floor in horror once he realized Greer shot Kennedy.

Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment.
<modsnip>

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:23 PM
Austin Miller's Warren Commission Testimony (back to the list of witnesses)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/comp.htm#list

(Miller was standing on the triple overpass)

Mr. BELIN - Well, describe what happened. Did you see the motorcade come by?
Mr. MILLER - Yes sir; it came down main street and turned north on Houston Street and went over two blocks and turned left on Elm Street. Got about halfway down the hill going toward the underpass and that is when as I recall the first shot was fired.
Mr. BELIN - Did you know it was a shot when you heard it?
Mr. MILLER - I didn't know it. I thought at first the motorcycle backfiring or somebody throwed some firecrackers out.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you hear or see?
Mr. MILLER - After the first one, just a few seconds later, there was two more shots fired, or sounded like a sound at the time. I don't know for sure. And it was after that I saw some man in the car fall forward, and a women next to him grab him and hollered, and just what, I don't know exactly what she said.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you see?
Mr. MILLER - About that time I turned to look toward the - there is a little plaza sitting on the hill. I looked over there to see if anything was there, who through the firecracker or whatever it was, or see if anything was up there, and there wasn't nobody standing there, so I stepped back and looked at the tracks to see if anybody run across the railroad tracks, and there was nobody running across the railroad tracks. So I turned right straight back just in time to see the convertible take off fast.
Mr. BELIN - You mean the convertible in which the President was riding?
Mr. MILLER - I wouldn't want to say it was the President. It was a convertible, but I saw a man fall over. I don't know whose convertible it was.
Mr. BELIN - Where did the shots sound like they came from?
Mr. MILLER - Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say from right there in the car. Would be to my left, the way I was looking at him toward that incline.
Mr. BELIN - Is there anything else that you can think of that you saw?
Mr. MILLER - About the time I looked over to the side there, there was a police officer. No; a motorcycle running his motor under against the curb, and jumped off and come up to the hill toward the top and right behind him was some more officers and plainclothesmen, too.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see anyone that might be, that gave any suspicious movements of any kind over there?
Mr. MILLER - No, sir; I didn't
Mr. BELIN - Did you see anyone when you looked around on the railroad tracks, that you hadn't seen before
Mr. MILLER - No, sir; I didn't.

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:24 PM
THIS IS MOST LIKELY THE CLOSEST EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT PLACING THE GUN IN GREER'S HAND.

COUNTY OF DALLAS, TEXAS
Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22 day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Hugh William Betzner, Jr., Address 5922 Velasco, Dallas, Age 22 , Phone No. TA 7-9761
Deposes and says:
I was standing on Houston Street near the intersection of Elm Street. I took a picture of President Kennedy's car as it passed along Houston Street. I have an old camera. I looked down real quick and rolled the film to take the next picture. I then ran down to the corner of Elm andHouston [sic] Streets, this being the southwest corner. I was standing back from the corner and had to take the pictures through some of the crowd. I ran on down Elm a little more and President Kennedy's car was starting to go down the hill to the triple underpass. I was running trying to keep the President's car in my view and was winding my film as I ran. I was looking down at my camera to see the number of the film as I ran. I took another picture as the President's car was going down the hill on Elm Street. I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise. I thought that this noise was either a firecracker or a car had backfired. I looked up and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped. Then I saw a flash of pink like someone standing up and then sitting back down in the car. Then I ran around so I could look over the back of a monument and I either saw the following then or when I was sitting back down on the corner of Elm Street. I cannot remember exactly where I was when I saw the following: I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air. I also saw a man in either the President's car or the car behind his and someone down in one of those cars pull out what looked like a rifle. I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car. Then the President's car sped on under the underpass. Police and a lot of spectators started running up the hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a fence of wood. I assumed that was where the shot was fired from at that time. I kept watching the crowd. Then I came around the monument over to Main Street. I walked down toward where the President's car had stopped. I saw a Police Officer and some men in plain clothes. I don't know who they were. These Police Officers and the men in plain clothes were digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a bullet. I walked back around the monument over to Elm Street where they were digging in the dirt. I went on across the street and up the embankment to where the fence is located. By this time almost all of the people had left. There were quite a few people down on the street and crowded around a motorcycle. I was looking around the fence as the rumor had spread that that was where the shot had come from. I started figuring where I was when I had taken the third picture and it seemed to me that the fence row would have been in the picture. I saw a group of men who looked like they might be officers and one of them turned out to be Deputy Sheriff Boone. I told him about the picture I had taken. Deputy Sheriff Boone contacted superiors and was told to bring me over to the Sheriff's Office. Deputy Sheriff Boone took my camera and asked me to wait. I waited in the Sheriff's Office and some time later, an hour or two, he brought my camera back and told me that as soon as they got through with the film and they were dry that they would give me the film. A little later he came in and gave me the negatives and told me that they were interested in a couple of pictures and implied that the negatives was all I was going to get back. To the best of my knowledge, this is all I know about this incident. /s/ Hugh William Betzner, Jr.
http://www.jfk-online.com/betzner.html
<modsnip>

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:25 PM
Gifs have made the case against this goon, Greer, who was Kennedy's real assassin. Over and over and over an over we can see this killer slowing for only himself and then speeding off to Parkland.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/nixjfk.gif
Greer's left arm crosses over in nix film.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/Gifs/jfk__GIFSoupcom.gif
Enhanced and zoomed nix gif showing Greer's left arm crossing with headshot.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/Gifs/enhanced-nix-gif_o_GIFSoupcom.gif
It's a brand new year that'll continue to expose this obvious truth to more people who are ignorant of the fact that the driver was jfk's real assassin.

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:27 PM
It's hard to imagine a better comparable to the Kennedy forehead shot. You can see the bullet smoke when it strikes his face which is mirrored by the nix gif showing the bullet strike his right forehead consistent with my work placing the entrance over the right eye and logically exiting the right rear, supported by 40 witnesses including Greer and Jackie Kennedy.
<modsnip>
FRAME 337 showing right rear exit.
<modsnip>

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:28 PM
WATCH THIS GIF...WATCH HIS RIGHT HAND MOVE TO HIS LEFT.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/gifsoup.gif
THE ONLY STORY left to tell is what I've posted in this thread, destroying the movie and an industry full of LYING conspiracy authors who are ironically the most responsible for keeping the truth from the masses.
GREAT GIF showing his right to left movement. Keep your eyes through the windshield.
<modsnip>
FRAME 278 is the last clear view of the fitted gun in Greer's left hand. Logic dictates that Greer would not have put his hand back on the wheel only 2 seconds before he was gonna shoot Kennedy. It's common sense that he moved the gun from lower position in a similar way to resting it on his chest, so all he had to do was raise, straighten and shoot over the seatback. There was no wild motion, flailing of the gun. The gun was rested near his right collarbone before he turned the second time at frame 302 to shoot.
FRAME 278- You can see the fitted gun from frames 242-278 except 64/65 because of the lamp post.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/WallPaint617.jpg

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:29 PM
<modsnip>
I knew a long time ago, bobharris77 had realized during the making of this clip that the film had in fact been altered to hide the fact the driver shot Kennedy. He did make some adjustments to it because you can no longer advance it with your mouse from 158-200-202. At two minutes you could see the red smoke and then advance to 202 and see the red blotch appear, both of those happening in unison with the white extending backward.

At around 1:30 he's babbling on about how the driver's left hand is at his side while holding steady at frame 312. At the end of his verbal nonsense he advances to frame 313 where you can clearly see it extend in sync with the headshot. What he did was create this effect which distracts the viewer from seeing the fake white working in sync with the fake red blotch. He did this because the screen didn't change for 30 or more seconds before advancing it to 313. This amount of time would have revealed to at least some viewers the connection between the fake reflection and the headshot. Bob, knows the driver fired on Kennedy and this effect proves it beyond any doubt. Bob, is a wannabe conspiracy theorist which means the driver did it, is off limits. This should teach anybody out there...do not try to use the film to disprove an obvious fact because some sleuth may come along and use it against you. After this <modsnip> found out I was using his <modsnip> video to prove the film was altered he went back and enhanced the effect to better hide the fake white and fake mist causing and hiding the headshot from the front.
<modsnip>
The above effect was created to hide the fake reflection and fake blood mist from working in sync to cause and hide the heashot coming from the driver. Watch the fake white extend in unison with the red mist between 312-313.
<modsnip>
312-313
<modsnip>
The Certified <modsnip> himself.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/Gifs/WallPaint726.jpg

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:31 PM
The HSCA said there were 4 shots and gave two scenarios based on the dpd radio analysis. One of their scenarios had a shot coming after the fatal shot which is what the evidence suggests.

1st shot = Z157 - Z161 TSBD

2nd shot = Z188 - Z191 TSBD

3rd shot = Z295 - Z296 Grassy Knoll (MISSSED...LOL)

4th shot = Z312 TSBD

The HSCA went with the above scenario in the late 70's.

1st shot = Z173 - Z177 TSBD

2nd shot = Z205 -Z208 TSBD

3rd shot = Z312 Grassy Knoll

4th shot = Z328 - Z329 TSBD

This was their way of rewarding people like Robert Groden for covering up the truth about Greer. Groden is the <modsnip> on the right.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/Gifs/RobertGrodenpathetic.jpg

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:34 PM
I knew last year the only battle left to fight was the truth against the red herring and the grassy knoll is the devil in sheeps clothing. The zapruder film was altered to make it look like the fatal shot came from the right side but it came from the front like most say but they leave out the little fact that the fence is a right side shot, totally inconsistent with a wound path necessary to cause the right rear exit.

The goons could make certain alterations to the film but nothing drastic, like making jfk go forward, the direction he would have went had the shot really come from the rear. They knew early on that witnesses reported shots from the grassy knoll so they went with that type of deception for the altered film that we all see today.

It's obvious they did NOT want the film to appear like the shot came from the driver even though it really does look that way if you are researching it but most people just saw it once or twice or people like Oliver Stone used the altered film to peddle the lie that is the grassy snow job. Make no mistake, Hollywood played a very important role in giving Americans an alternative to the absurd conclusions of the Warren Commission and covering up the real truth for the government, and of course making millions of $$$.

The red mist or blood spray is fake as many here have seen by seeing it form between 312-313. I've said it was painted in for two reasons. One, to prevent anyone from seeing the bullet enter jfk's right forehead and two, it gives the illusion that the right side of his head explodes. The Nix film is crucial in solving this case but so is the Muchmore film which provides a greater angle than nix or Z at the time of the headshot. In Muchmore, no red mist is showing and her angle is the best out of the three. Also, we see in zframe 319, the bleached gun going to the floor. Well, something similar happens in the other two films.

It looks like the shot came from the right side because that's what they wanted you to believe and everyone bought it hook, line and sinker. But, it's an obvious lie that was pretty easy to expose if you were researching it like myself and of course were willing to tell the truth if you found it. Everyone watching this close-up thinks it comes from the right side.
<modsnip>
At closer examination, by looking at slow-motion clips, the alteration is crystal clear by viewing the fake red mist forming between frames 312-313.
<modsnip>
The<modsnip>, Bob Harris plays a very important role in exposing this all -important alteration to hide the front right entrance and Kennedy's real assassin, the driver. The fake reflection and fake mist are working in perfect sync to cause and hide the front right entrance but thanks to Bob, it's easy to see.
<modsnip>

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:35 PM
At trial, the<modsnip> could NOT explain away the grey steak which is obviously a fake covering for Greer's forearm extention. The grey steak is 100% fake and covers Greer's forearm and elbow extention when he shoots jfk. The grey is over his shoulder first and then across when it's needed.
OVER.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/jfklookthatkill.gif
ACROSS WHEN IT'S NEEDED.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/greystreak2.gif
<modsnip> ALTERATION creates perfect view of gun when it's fired.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/jfkwhitegiffast.gif

7forever
02-10-2011, 05:36 PM
Amazon.com: Tyler Newcomb's review of Murder from within

Posted on Nov. 9, 2010 2:24 AM PST
Maskmaker says:
Tyler, years ago I found a jpg of a newspaper clip from the Chicago sun times, dated Sat., Nov 23, 1963, and not only is Senator Yarborough quoted as saying he smelled gun powder on LBJ's limo nearly all the way to the hospital, he is quoted as saying that the 3rd shot may have been from a Secret Service man returning fire! Can't wait to get my hands on this book after all these years, & hopefully, the DVD! All the evidence points towards Greer taking the final shot.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov. 9, 2010 2:41 AM PST
Tyler Newcomb says:
Yes I have a very faded copy of that. If you still have it I'd like to see if it's better than mine to find a way to put it in the book. Thanks

A Murder Within was self published in 1974.

7forever
02-10-2011, 06:06 PM
Everyone can see, even the Kennedy ,modsnip> that Greer's left arm is swiftly jerking over his right shoulder in unison with the headshot. CASE CLOSED, with no challenge from any lone nutter or ct'er like Groden and Marrs.
<modsnip>
NO HAND OR ARM AT 304-305. IT'S OBVIOUS AND CONCLUSIVE.
<modsnip>

7forever
02-10-2011, 06:11 PM
http://www.jfklancer.com/greer.html
They do not allow it to advance to 313 because it would recoil with the double image.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/jfkcloserecoil.gif
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/jfkwhitegiffast.gif
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/greer2.gif

7forever
02-10-2011, 06:22 PM
The altered gun is visible before, during and after the shot.
318 is the fake reflection and 319 is the gun bleached in white.
<modsnip>
COMING UP FROM FLOOR, BACKWARDS.
<modsnip>
They could NOT edit out the gun so they covered it with white and grey. The driver killing Kennedy was always THE TRUTH but was universally ignored and covered-up.
<modsnip>

7forever
02-10-2011, 06:29 PM
The red blob is fake because it appears before the shot and after the bullet connects and you can see the mist disappear leaving the fake flap.
<modsnip>
Notice the fake white extend in unison with the fake bloodmist.
<modsnip>

Fukiyama
02-10-2011, 07:02 PM
Quite a lot of posting there. You couldn't sum all that up and put to together in a cohesive narrative? :)

7forever
02-10-2011, 07:57 PM
Quite a lot of posting there. You couldn't sum all that up and put to together in a cohesive narrative? :)

Not really. Because the films are what prove Greer's arm/hand movements were responsible for the headshot. A little over 20 posts is nothing when you think about the amount of evidence a prosecutor presents in court.

wv171
02-10-2011, 08:42 PM
I saw on 1st post of this thread a lot about J.D. Tippit.. There is a lost missing time period and questions of where he was.. This Family site can answer a lot of these questions if you read it and trust them... I feel myself they have no real reason to lye about his actions ...I don't see them trying to gain anything what so ever about his part in this major crime.. After the JFK murder you sure did not see his family buying big homes or big fancy cars.. Really other way around appear they did have to go through some tough times after his death..

There is a wonderfull appears to be a family web site about J.D. and all about his life..Childhood to Day he died..

It should be atleast check out and give you some type of background on J.D. before you make your mind up about him..

Myself I think J.D. Very well could had the real one or more JFK gunmen in a corner at time of his death and this cost him his life.. Unknown at this time but he very well could been the real hero if they are such of one in this case..

Excuse me if I am wrong about posting links.. Webmasters more than welcome to remove my link if I am in the wrong on when to post links and when not to post links on this site... Myself I never have understand the correct way to do Links on this site of yet..

J.D. Tippit site

http://www.jdtippit.com/

Fukiyama
02-10-2011, 09:05 PM
Not really. Because the films are what prove Greer's arm/hand movements were responsible for the headshot. A little over 20 posts is nothing when you think about the amount of evidence a prosecutor presents in court.
True, but presentation and explanation are everything.

I was getting the gist of your argument about Greer, but then you suddenly veered off to point out the flaws of various conspiracy theorists whom I would guess are unknown quantities to the normal readership of this forum whom you claim are patsies for the government in its bid to hide the truth. That's about where I got lost and started to lose interest.

My suggestion to start with an outline and road map for people where you want to go with your information and have effective transitions. Otherwise, it just comes off as a lot of repetition of the same basic material with subtleties that are barely explained and explored for the layman.

passionflower
02-11-2011, 04:18 PM
Just a little tidbit of info here - I worked at Parkland Hospital (the hospital where they took JFK), but way after he was assasinated. I worked in Pathology and Autopsy - probably around the early 1970's.....

Just thought I'd throw that in here because right now I don't have much else to add.

Did the other nurses ever mention any little thing about that famous day?

kline
02-12-2011, 05:19 AM
It seems like the Oswald Lone gunman/Conspiracy debate seems to pendulam back and forth each theory being in vogue depending on the prevailing political climate at the moment.
In my un-expert opinion based on nothing but life long experience with fire arms and shooting is that the fatal head shot came from Kennedy's right-front judging from my viewing of the Zapruder film.(Though im sure there are many who would be quick to produce facts and figures to prove my lying eyes are seeing exactly the opposite of what REALLY happened) Just my opinion though.
I also find the discrepencies in the discriptions of the wounds described by the Texas medical personal at Parkland as opposed to what was described at the autopsy in Washington very compelling.
The waters have been muddied unfortunately by alot of nuts on both sides of the question.

7forever
02-12-2011, 12:23 PM
The parabolic arc being the secondary exit trajectory.

The bullet trace certainly looks to be exiting his right ear.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvkw93jfXaA

Original Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvkw93jfXaA

<modsnip>
FRAME 337 showing right rear exit.
<modsnip>

The Farm
02-13-2011, 10:28 AM
7forever,,,I just do not see what you are saying. I believe the fatal shot did in fact come from the front but not from Greer and that I do not see. There were to many witnesses, it was just to close.
I never have believed in the Oswald theory at all. And I do not think in our lifetimes we will ever find out the truth.

passionflower
02-13-2011, 11:31 AM
Not in this frame, but what happens after.
Ms. Kennedy climbed to the back of the car and retrieved
Presidents skull and tried to put it back in place.
I read this and saw the picture in a book one time.
It was very sad to read.........sorry no link...........just memory.

7forever
02-13-2011, 11:59 PM
lol 7forever, the drive is not the shooter. look at the clips you posted carefully. Notice the drivers LEFT hand is on the steering wheel. HTF does he shoot kennedy with his right hand.

What you are seeing the the sun shining on the greasy hair of the passenger not a silver pistol. The sun is even shining off the greasy hair of the driver. Back then it was common for men to grease their hair. I remember my dad using Brylcreem back in the day.

And Rodin, lol, come on man, do you seriously believe Jacky killed her husband.

lol Phantom, the driver is the shooter, always was and always will be. Look at the clips I posted carefully. Notice the driver's LEFT hand is passing the gun to his right hand before he turns the first time.
<modsnip>
What you are seeing is a fake blob of white created by a 1963 goon squad.LOL Real hair reflections do not recoil at the exact moment a president is being shot by his driver unless the driver shot that president, which Greer clearly and obviously did. It even separates from Roy's head.LOL
<modsnip>

7forever
02-14-2011, 12:04 AM
Not in this frame, but what happens after.
Ms. Kennedy climbed to the back of the car and retrieved
Presidents skull and tried to put it back in place.
I read this and saw the picture in a book one time.
It was very sad to read.........sorry no link...........just memory.

I'm not sure I believe that story. She freaks once she sees the hole on the back of his head.
<modsnip>

7forever
02-14-2011, 10:58 AM
you're misreading the video evidence. bullet smoke trails emit from the barrel of the gun, not the target. the target emits fragments of bone, brain and blood. the fragment evidence shows the exit point, not the entrance point. it shows an exit point consistent with a bullet that originated from jackies position.

You're misreading the video evidence and real life. Clear bullet smoke emits when it hits its target. The bullet struck jfk in the right forehead emitting smoke at that point. Mussolini was executed with a shot to the back of the head and smoke emits from that point. You don't know what you're talking about in the least.
Kennedy shot from the front by the driver, William Greer.
<modsnip>
A man shot in the face with smoke at entrance.
<modsnip>
Mussolini shot in back of head in the mid 40's.
<modsnip>
CASE CLOSED

The Farm
02-14-2011, 06:05 PM
I do not see a gun. And if that were the case why oh why did everyone keep quiet abput it, especially the Kennedy family?

passionflower
02-14-2011, 06:24 PM
please look and watch Jackie on the trunk of limo.
In the book I read she reaches for JFK's skull.
I always thought she was helping SS agent but not true.
<modsnip>

7forever
02-15-2011, 11:20 AM
If you look at frame 9 of that gif of mussolini it clearly shows the smoke appearing behind him as we look at it, ie the front of his head (open it in photoshop & view it full screen.

His head also jerks backwards as a recoil from the exit wound (it initially goes forward, then reappears vertically).

Exactly as Kennedy's head did when it received a bullet in the back of the head and it exited out the front.

Case closed.

If you look at the gif of mussolini it clearly shows the smoke appearing at back of his head where the bullet enters. (open it in photoshop & view it full screen. Mussolini's head jerks forward naturally from the rear shot, the exact opposite of what Kennedy's head did when he received the shot from the front.
<modsnip>
case closed

cami
02-19-2011, 05:23 PM
It's the mystery of the 20th Century, who killed JFK? Did the murdered Dallas Police officer have a role in it? Here is a VERY interesting investigation into the timeline that day for Dallas Police Officer Tippit, who was later believed to be murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm

My opinion? Oswald was the lone gunman. All theories about places for a second gunman to shoot from were recently disproved in a Discovery Channel investigation. ABC World News Tonight also did an investigation and found that the Warren Comission was correct. And as for shooting FROM the grassy knoll, I don't think so! Most everyone on the ground seemed to know about the shots coming from the Book Depository 6 stories up and quite a ways away, but NO one noticed someone shooting a rifle from a grassy knoll right there on the street with people all around???? That defies all logic. Was he put up to it by someone else? I think so. Most likely a Mob hit. Was Officer Tippit involved? He sure acted suspiciously, that day, and maybe Oswald had to silence him, just like Ruby had to silence Oswald (and that is typical Mob practice, not only kill the person, but then kill the people who killed the person, to ensure no one was around as a witness.) And they likely also killed Monroe. But, did someone put them up to it, or did they do it on their own? I look forward to reading the various theories, and maybe we can fill each other in on things we have heard that others might not have. Take it away, Sleuthers!!!!

I agree with you. I think Marchetti (not sure if I have the right mobster) out of New Orleans had Kennedy killed. So, the mob set it up, Oswald fired the fatal shots, Ruby kills Oswald. Ruby himself was dying of lung cancer although he did live longer than expected in prison.

No one was firing from the grassy knoll. I know some who think there was because the bystanders were diving down for cover but those bystanders were closest to the street and heard and saw the shots.

Don't forget Kennedy and Mrs. K were seated higher than Connolly and his wife in the car, very easy for the bullet to go through Kennedy's throat and then into Connolly. I don't believe there was a magic bullet either. One shot missed but landed in the car. MOO

cami
02-19-2011, 05:25 PM
please look and watch Jackie on the trunk of limo.
In the book I read she reaches for JFK's skull.
I always thought she was helping SS agent but not true.
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/jfk-reloaded-702-score-shooting-from-oswald-location/0e849fb4452272f807040e849fb4452272f80704-528800153874?q=JFK%20shooting

Yeah, she was getting out of there before she got shot. MOO

Bargle
02-19-2011, 06:55 PM
Yeah, she was getting out of there before she got shot. MOO

Seconded. Having a large part of your husband's brain explode out of his skull next to you could panic any wife.

liz b.
02-25-2011, 06:07 PM
I agree with you. I think Marchetti (not sure if I have the right mobster) out of New Orleans had Kennedy killed. So, the mob set it up, Oswald fired the fatal shots, Ruby kills Oswald. Ruby himself was dying of lung cancer although he did live longer than expected in prison.

No one was firing from the grassy knoll. I know some who think there was because the bystanders were diving down for cover but those bystanders were closest to the street and heard and saw the shots.

Don't forget Kennedy and Mrs. K were seated higher than Connolly and his wife in the car, very easy for the bullet to go through Kennedy's throat and then into Connolly. I don't believe there was a magic bullet either. One shot missed but landed in the car. MOO

I think you mean Carlos Marcello, a mobster from New Orleans...Not sure he had the power to kill a President ; he and his family were lower level mob figures in the scheme of things...Bobby Kennedy had Marcello deported to Guatemala. I always wondered if he had RFK killed as a revenge action.... JMO

liz b.
02-25-2011, 06:20 PM
In the last interview before his death LBJ said that the JFK murder was caused by a foreign conspiracy.... Could be... JMO

KarlK
02-27-2011, 11:25 AM
I think you mean Carlos Marcello, a mobster from New Orleans...Not sure he had the power to kill a President

Did Leon Czolgosz have the power to kill a President? All it takes is an opportunity. Among all the theories about who killed JFK those pertaining to a mob hit seem to overlook the possibility that it may not have been a high-level conspiracy, but the deed of an individual gangster acting on his own accord.

That said, this would not be my favorite theory as it wouldn't explain the setting up of Oswald.

liz b.
02-27-2011, 10:22 PM
Did Leon Czolgosz have the power to kill a President? All it takes is an opportunity. Among all the theories about who killed JFK those pertaining to a mob hit seem to overlook the possibility that it may not have been a high-level conspiracy, but the deed of an individual gangster acting on his own accord.

That said, this would not be my favorite theory as it wouldn't explain the setting up of Oswald.

KarlK,
I do not believe it was a mob related hit at all... Plenty of prosecotors in the Justice Dept. have put mob guys away for life.And lived to tell about it... Carlos Marcello didn't have the water to do a deed like this...IMO.

KarlK
02-27-2011, 11:34 PM
KarlK,
I do not believe it was a mob related hit at all... Plenty of prosecotors in the Justice Dept. have put mob guys away for life.And lived to tell about it... Carlos Marcello didn't have the water to do a deed like this...IMO.

Well perhaps JFK wasn't killed for completely sane reasons ;)

Seriously, I don't buy much into a mob hit either as it would have been pointless and, as it turned out, counterproductive.

Snick1946
03-08-2011, 08:14 PM
Many years ago I read a theory someone had developed; there were TWO unrelated shooters in Dallas that day. Oswald and an unknown gunman, neither knew the other would be shooting. Dallas was a hotbed of reactionary feeling at that time and it isn't hard to imagine that someone to this day unknown felt like taking a shot at JFK as well.
IMO this is pretty far out. But it isn't the strangest theory I've heard.

justthinkin
03-09-2011, 01:24 AM
I have believed for years that JFK's death was a political hit, called for by the one man who was about to find himself not on the ticket in 1964 with JFK.
LBJ had the means, the connections and the motive.

I also believe LBJ ordered the murder of Henry Marshall who was dogging Billy Sol Estes, and his illegal cotton allotments.

justthinkin
03-10-2011, 03:42 AM
This is an excellent short read of about 5 pages, and makes clear the history surrounding the events of 1963. It leaves little doubt in my mind.
http://viewzone2.com/lbj/indexx.html

waltzingmatilda
03-10-2011, 10:00 AM
Thanks for the link justthinkin! Very interesting as I always suspected LBJ was behind the assassination of JFK. The article was thought provoking and well written.

I have been doing a little researching and viewing videos and have concluded that the fatal shot entered through the right front of JFK's head and blew out the right back. The first shot entered thru the back and blew out the front throat area from viewing the autopsie photos. This was the one that also hit Gov. connally. The magic bullet I think it is called.

I did notice one thing that kind of bothers me. Mrs Kennedy doesn't have as much blood on her person as I would expect from the footage of the amt of 'spray' coming from the President's head.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/swearin.htm

The photo at the link is not full length and her right side is not visible so maybe there is more on her clothing. I wish I could find a full length photo of her after her husband was murdered.

all moo

wm

7forever
03-29-2011, 02:03 PM
This is some impressive dedication to a topic no one really cares about.

According to the cable networks there were 1000 books published on jfk. Alot of people cared and still care about this case. They just don't want the obvious truth about Greer to come out but it has, even if only in a small way.

7forever
03-30-2011, 02:41 PM
Clint describes a massive exit that could have only been caused by that goon, Greer.

Clint Hill saw the massive hole on the right rear portion of his head.

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.
Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.


Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

The back of his head opens up at the moment of the front right impact.
<modsnip>

Stone2065
03-31-2011, 11:00 PM
Just my two cents worth here, as I'm new here and still feeling out the forum...

1. I've seen the video that supposedly shows the driver shooting JFK, including the fine work here showing great close ups of that portion of the "Z" film. Sorry folks, it's hair grease making the shine, not a gun. I was a surveillance observer in a major casino, catching card cheats and other thieves... watching video 8 hours a day, you develop some skill in it, and sorry, no gun there.

2. The final shot came from the front. I am not 100% certain as to exact direction, but either the grassy knoll or the bridge would be likely shooting perches.

3. Oswald shot AT JFK. He may have (more than likely, I'd say 80+% chance) caused the round that came in the upper back of JFK and hit Conally. The rest of any rounds he fired out of that pile of junk people refer to as a rifle would be lucky to hit the CAR. I've handled the Carcano rifles. Hard to cycle the bolt, slow to cycle and considering it had either an 18" or 20" barrel, it's not what you would call my first choice in a sniper weapon. Also, the scope he used was a small tube (7/8") 4x (4 power magnification). Crappy field of view, poor light, even during mid day, just again, not my first choice in a sniper weapon's scope.

4. This last one comes from my Mother. No, I'm not saying it's true or not, but she was 38 when JFK was shot, so was an adult at the time. She had told me a few times, when she heard I was doing some snooping into this subject "you know, LBJ's wife ordered new china for the White House, with the White House logo, and their (LBJ's) initials five WEEKS before Kennedy was killed". Is she right? Wrong? I have no way of verifying this, but if it was, would be an interesting fact to throw into the mix.

Thanks for letting me rant on here folks.

Kimberlyd125
03-31-2011, 11:39 PM
Just my two cents worth here, as I'm new here and still feeling out the forum...

1. I've seen the video that supposedly shows the driver shooting JFK, including the fine work here showing great close ups of that portion of the "Z" film. Sorry folks, it's hair grease making the shine, not a gun. I was a surveillance observer in a major casino, catching card cheats and other thieves... watching video 8 hours a day, you develop some skill in it, and sorry, no gun there.

2. The final shot came from the front. I am not 100% certain as to exact direction, but either the grassy knoll or the bridge would be likely shooting perches.

3. Oswald shot AT JFK. He may have (more than likely, I'd say 80+% chance) caused the round that came in the upper back of JFK and hit Conally. The rest of any rounds he fired out of that pile of junk people refer to as a rifle would be lucky to hit the CAR. I've handled the Carcano rifles. Hard to cycle the bolt, slow to cycle and considering it had either an 18" or 20" barrel, it's not what you would call my first choice in a sniper weapon. Also, the scope he used was a small tube (7/8") 4x (4 power magnification). Crappy field of view, poor light, even during mid day, just again, not my first choice in a sniper weapon's scope.

4. This last one comes from my Mother. No, I'm not saying it's true or not, but she was 38 when JFK was shot, so was an adult at the time. She had told me a few times, when she heard I was doing some snooping into this subject "you know, LBJ's wife ordered new china for the White House, with the White House logo, and their (LBJ's) initials five WEEKS before Kennedy was killed". Is she right? Wrong? I have no way of verifying this, but if it was, would be an interesting fact to throw into the mix.

Thanks for letting me rant on here folks.

Great post Stone! Welcome to Websleuths.

Stone2065
04-01-2011, 12:25 AM
Thank you very much for the welcome. :)

I have been studying the JFK assassination for many years, not to the extent of several posters on here, from what I've seen, but in my own unprofessional way. The one area that I DO have a small bit of skill in, is viewing the videos. I can sort through papers, and other assorted data, but seeing what I can from the videos, plus some of my own snooping, has always kept my interest.

Also, this looks like a great site. I'll do my best to keep contributing.

justthinkin
04-01-2011, 12:36 AM
Just my two cents worth here, as I'm new here and still feeling out the forum...

1. I've seen the video that supposedly shows the driver shooting JFK, including the fine work here showing great close ups of that portion of the "Z" film. Sorry folks, it's hair grease making the shine, not a gun. I was a surveillance observer in a major casino, catching card cheats and other thieves... watching video 8 hours a day, you develop some skill in it, and sorry, no gun there.

2. The final shot came from the front. I am not 100% certain as to exact direction, but either the grassy knoll or the bridge would be likely shooting perches.

3. Oswald shot AT JFK. He may have (more than likely, I'd say 80+% chance) caused the round that came in the upper back of JFK and hit Conally. The rest of any rounds he fired out of that pile of junk people refer to as a rifle would be lucky to hit the CAR. I've handled the Carcano rifles. Hard to cycle the bolt, slow to cycle and considering it had either an 18" or 20" barrel, it's not what you would call my first choice in a sniper weapon. Also, the scope he used was a small tube (7/8") 4x (4 power magnification). Crappy field of view, poor light, even during mid day, just again, not my first choice in a sniper weapon's scope.

4. This last one comes from my Mother. No, I'm not saying it's true or not, but she was 38 when JFK was shot, so was an adult at the time. She had told me a few times, when she heard I was doing some snooping into this subject "you know, LBJ's wife ordered new china for the White House, with the White House logo, and their (LBJ's) initials five WEEKS before Kennedy was killed". Is she right? Wrong? I have no way of verifying this, but if it was, would be an interesting fact to throw into the mix.

Thanks for letting me rant on here folks.

I second that, great post, and I totally agree! Not only about the hair grease, but when the hair grease turns into a ha, ha, gun, the tops of everyone's heads are suddenly shinier as well. I'm thinking there may have been some clouds in the sky, and the sun had just popped out from behind one causing the shinier heads on everyone.

Absolutely a frontal shot. Any shooter would agree with that. Kennedy's head went back when the last shot hit him.

I've also read some of what you said about the carcano and it's accuracy or rather, lack of it.

I grew up in Dallas, and was a teenager when it happened. I had saved the newspapers every day for that week, but finally got tired of lugging them around, and tossed them.

I've seen the picture taken on AF 1, Jackie's head hung low in grief, the smile that Ladybird couldn't quite contain, and the grin, facial muscles don't lie, but mostly hidden on LBJ's face, when Albert Thomas winked at him.
Amazing photo that one.

Stone2065
04-01-2011, 12:51 AM
Thanks. :)

I have been shooting for over 40 years myself, and have handled a few Carcanos, and haven't seen one yet that was what I would even call "passable" quality, much less of the quality needed for those shots.

I've also seen the pic you're talking about. Yes, and to me, it appeared that Jackie was one of the FEW that seemed to be in shock at the time of LBJ taking the oath. As far as some of the earlier references to blood showing on Jackie's clothes, remember, it was a bubble gum pink Gucci outfit, and especially any blood that was oxygenated, would almost match that color, so unless you have color pics of her after the shot, I wouldn't expect much to show, plus, as I've stated before, I was a surveillance observer in a casino. Most of our cameras (at the time I was working there) were black and white, so you had to learn what shades of grey each color for the checks were. Red checks were $5, and so yeh, if you have a black and white pic of Jackie, it's hard enough to tell it's red/pink that she's wearing, much less seeing blood and pink differentiated in shades of grey.

Snick1946
04-01-2011, 10:02 AM
So, if the driver fired the fatal shot, why? Was he in on a conspiracy, or was this a tragic accident- maybe he intended to fire at a gunman he mistakenly thought was nearby?
I recently read the book 'JFK and the unspeakable'. In that book there are allusions to the Secret Service's relationship with JFK, they disrespected him for his lifestyle and politics. Allegedly he told close friends in the months prior to his death that he had the vague feeling that something wasn't right about his security.

waltzingmatilda
04-01-2011, 10:17 AM
Snick, I am bringing this link forward which someone posted earlier in the thread. I thought it quite interesting.

http://viewzone2.com/lbj/indexx.html

I was only three years old when JFK was asassinated but I remember it vividly as though it was yesterday! The replays of the shooting and my mother crying for our dead president will be forever imprinted in my mind. And even as a little girl, there was something about LBJ that I despised. IDK why....

wm

Stone2065
04-02-2011, 04:27 AM
I was just looking over a pic that was supposedly taken within a second or two (either way) of the final shot on JFK. It's shot towards the grassy knoll, and there are 3 men in front of the fence.

14303

If you look on the left side of the pic, you'll see the 3 guys. Now, you will notice that JFK's head is on Jackie's shoulder, so either he's just had the final shot, or he's literally a second from it. Now granted, I couldn't find anything odd in the pic around the fence area (as if someone were standing behind it), but consider this...

Shots had been fired in the plaza... from Oswald, etc. Now, I don't know about you folks, but I'd be eating grass at the point this pic was taken... not just standing there, with the man on the left appearing to have a camera in his hand no less, watching this unfold. Were they in such total shock they froze? Or, did they know more about what was going on, and knew they were safe where they were?

Go ahead and call me crazy, but it just strikes me odd about their behavior in the pic... :waitasec:

Upon looking at the pic some more, I would speculate that it was taken after the final shot, since on the far right edge, you can see what appears to be part of the arm of the SS officer that rushed the limo and jumped onto the back just before they took off, although Jackie hasn't gotten up and climbed out onto the trunk lid to get the piece of JFK's skull "so they could put it back" as she said in an interview years later...

7forever
04-02-2011, 09:50 AM
Kellerman moved his head forward, backward and forward again in the space of 1 second (frames 296-314) in an attempt to block the gun's view from the north side of elm street and after to look like he's ducking bullets. Watch him look to his left towards Greer's chest. He was following the movement of the gun and Greer's arm. When Greer turned the second time, the gun was near his right collarbone, so all he did was push it up, over and shoot jfk directly in the forehead. Kellerman even throws his hand up to signal, it's time to shoot jfk. That is how ridiculously obvious it is. Minor things like that are normally ignored or written off as anomalies.

<modsnip>
Watch the fake reflection recoil and separate from Roy's head.
<modsnip>

7forever
04-02-2011, 09:52 AM
With this old copy you can see the cartoon gun, arm and hand form perfectly before the fake reflection jolts backward in perfect unison with the headshot.
<modsnip>

Stone2065
04-02-2011, 12:26 PM
I don't have the video editing skills that you folks do, however, I do have an understanding of video, and 1963 Lincolns. I think I finally see what you think is an arm of the driver, and no, sorry, it's the upper part of the driver's door. Plus, the top of the passenger's head, with the grease, is of course going to move some... there was a high powered rifle shot just shot in his general direction, and just as a final thought, you do understand that this film, even when new, was approximately 7.5mp resolution for still pictures, right? Not counting "Z's" movement during the shooting? Plus the low frame rate doesn't help matters at all.

Not trying to sound trollish, just saying is all. No offense to anyone.

7forever
04-02-2011, 02:34 PM
I don't have the video editing skills that you folks do, however, I do have an understanding of video, and 1963 Lincolns. I think I finally see what you think is an arm of the driver, and no, sorry, it's the upper part of the driver's door. Plus, the top of the passenger's head, with the grease, is of course going to move some... there was a high powered rifle shot just shot in his general direction, and just as a final thought, you do understand that this film, even when new, was approximately 7.5mp resolution for still pictures, right? Not counting "Z's" movement during the shooting? Plus the low frame rate doesn't help matters at all.

Not trying to sound trollish, just saying is all. No offense to anyone.

Greer's left arm crosses over in the nix film which completely destroys any hope that this idiotic cover-up could continue on indefinitely. The arm is fake in Zapruder because it crosses in nix and muchmore.
<modsnip>
Advance to 1:09 and see for yourself where this gif came from.
<modsnip>

Stone2065
04-02-2011, 10:29 PM
Ok, time for me to find another thread I think. I don't think I'm getting my point across.

Kimberlyd125
04-02-2011, 11:13 PM
I know next to nothing about guns but I have a question.

If the driver shot JFK, it would have been at really close range. They would not have been able to tell the shot came from so close by the injuries to the president?

I mean wouldn't you be able to tell if it was at close range or if it was fired from far away?

7forever
04-03-2011, 09:47 AM
Ok, time for me to find another thread I think. I don't think I'm getting my point across.
<modsnip>
and ignoring the fact that Greer killed jfk and that is proven by showing his left arm cross his right shoulder in unison with the headshot in the nix film. That visual fact completely destroys the old and now invalid defense that Greer's left arm does not cross because it does, not only in nix but muchmore. The illusion that Greer does NOT kill Kennedy is in fact and obvious reality.
His left arm crosses and the headshot occurs at that moment.
<modsnip>

Kimberlyd125
04-03-2011, 11:13 AM
I really don't think anybody here can say someones point is invalid or that they know it's a fact who killed JFK.
It's your theory. It's your opinion. That does not make it a fact.

Mira
04-03-2011, 01:31 PM
http://www.jfklancer.com/greer.html

this was interesting, and shows a different point of view, such as greer's empty hand.

seems to me that if greer shot from the driver seat, wouldnt one of the 4 other people in the same car have seen the gun? the man sitting right next to him, the connelys, who he would have had to fire over their heads or between them, and jackie. the man in the passenger seat, less than 2 feet away, was a trained agent. greer was basically a chauffeur, not really trained.

(i dont have a strong opinion on this tragedy, only 'feelings')

heartfortruth
04-03-2011, 04:22 PM
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008/07/assassination-of-william-greer.html

The assassination of JFK has saddened and intrigued me for years. I was in college, on my way to my government class, when the cries rang out down the hall of my dorm. I've read a lot about it since then.
I have come to believe that you can't believe everything you read and not all of what you "see".
I do not know what really happened that day and I probably never will but I put this link here ( I HOPE) just in case anyone is interested and to add to the discussion.

7forever
04-04-2011, 05:02 PM
Not actually against your theory but at least give us a motive for each person in the car to make it more interesting.....:D

Jackie would have wanted him dead for publically humiliating him with his tarts....
the others...paid off perhaps?

Then there's the mafia, the CIA and everyone else that wanted him dead....so not much of a conspiracy.

But if it was done openly in public like this, my point is, surely it would have been a spur of the moment murder...because otherwise it is the most ridiculous assassination idea ever.....in an open top car, get the passenger to kill him and the rest of us say it was a shooter in the hills.....but what about the crowds that will see it?

So yes, I get what you are saying, you think it was someone in the car...I get that. But why? What motive? And was it spur of the moment or deliberately planned?
Even if you don't know - just give me your theory, that's all I was asking...:rolleyes:

Jackie wasn't look at him, so she didn't see Greer shoot although she may have realized it but who knows. Connally saw Greer shoot jfk and took it to his grave. They didn't say anything because it was a massive cover-up. Just imagine the governor of TX going against the media and government in the 60's. A complete joke. Of course it was ridiculous and that's the very reason why millions of americans should know about it. So, they can laugh at how retarded government can really be when their arrogance allows such an epic blunder.

Connally said he saw the fatal shot and quickly corrected himself but his reaction when looking at Greer proves he slipped up. Watch him hit the floor in horror once he realized Greer shot Kennedy.

Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment.
<modsnip>

Kimberlyd125
04-04-2011, 09:11 PM
I know next to nothing about guns but I have a question.

If the driver shot JFK, it would have been at really close range. They would not have been able to tell the shot came from so close by the injuries to the president?

I mean wouldn't you be able to tell if it was at close range or if it was fired from far away?

Just bumping this question.
Anybody have any thoughts?

Stone2065
04-04-2011, 10:43 PM
I wasn't planning on getting back on this boat, but one thing sprung to mind...

If the driver shot JFK, what kind of bullet passes through or very close by the governor's head without either hitting him or leaving a LOT of powder burns? As someone that HAS been shot at about 6' or so, yes, you do have a LOT of powder residue in the skin. I was picking that crap out of my arm for over 2 decades, literally. I don't recall seeing a pic of the governor with black flecks in his face/head/cheek area, especially his left side, which was to the driver at the time of that last shot...

Just an observation...

Dreamnine
04-05-2011, 04:44 AM
I don't know who shot JFK - whether it was Oswald alone and/or someone else.

But Officer Tippit's murder seems the most straightforward part of this case to me. So much absolute rubbish has been said re Tippit and conspiracies.

This is a great site: http://www.jdtippit.com/ and this is the version of events I believe.

7forever
04-05-2011, 03:36 PM
I stand by my initial research as to the major upper level players.

The inside the car shot in my opinion if accurate does not preclude an accidental discharge of the firearm.

I do not have instant recall at the moment but I seem to remember some vague accusations regarding the upper level people subbing inexperienced guys on the detail.

The shots from behind are a given. Also other shots in the plaza. The truth is always stranger than fiction.

In this scenario they had a "hit" in the back from long range. They had a hit from the front still. Also potentially from the front hitting the Governor. Both he and his wife swore until they day they died that shots came from the front. In the crossfire it would be understandable if the agent driving freaks out and pulls a revolver and attempts a shot to the rear. Ask yourself what would you do if you were in that drivers seat with a weapon at the ready?

Whether intentional or unintentional this scenario is supported by the actions afterward whereby the car is "wiped". If an agent was involved they HAD to cover that up immediately. I should clarify each participant AFTER the fact has no need to be "in on" the murder at all to cover up after the fact with zeal and complicity. Prevention of an open revolution, prevention of WWIII, general career CYA are all the potential unintended consequences if the truth gets out.

Greer shooting Kennedy by accident is a patently absurd theory but really is the only defense if Greer ever took the stand. He would admit to shooting jfk by accident in the commission of shooting back at the assassins and that explains why he lied about even seeing Kennedy let alone saying he turned only once. He died in 85. <modsnip>.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/WallPaint565.jpg

7forever
04-05-2011, 08:09 PM
Kennedy's head jerks forwards as he's hit with that fatal shot, the flap in his head breaks forwards and the pink mist moves back to front. He was shot from the rear. Your gif backs that up.

Kennedy was shot from the front because the driver shot Kennedy. That has been proven beyond any doubt without even a minute challenge in 14 months of posting this no-brainer. <modsnip>
At the point of impact, clear smoke emits as it does on jfk's forehead, the bank robber's face, and the man shot in the back of the head. Kennedy's head simply absorbs the impact and he's logically slammed backward.
<modsnip>
Smoke comes off face.
<modsnip>
Smoke at back of head.
<modsnip>

believe09
04-06-2011, 12:41 PM
This thread is being closed for review.

believe09
04-06-2011, 05:38 PM
OK folks, here is the deal- No more exploding head shots or stills without a GRAPHIC warning tag.

Thanks to all of you who took the time to alert....

believe09
04-07-2011, 02:47 PM
Have any of you been to Dealey Plaza? Or the JFK Museum in the Book Depository? I have been there several times...it is interesting.

MHO is that it was a turkey shoot, and I am not trying to be disrespectful. Oswald was part of the equation, clearly, but I think there were shots fired from other directions.

As for Robert Groden-I have debated with him many times and dont consider his POV valid...again JMO. My biggest issue with him was the life-sized picture of the exploding headshot he had with him and placed for all the world to see....at the Plaza that is.

As for the Zapruder film, the moment that stood out for me, even to this day, was Jackie O scrambling over the seat and onto the back of the car before the SS pulled her back in. I dont care what anyone says-she was in complete and utter terror...she was trying desperately to get out.

The Farm
04-07-2011, 06:08 PM
I just finished reading "The Kennedy Detail" written by one of the actual agents (Gerald Blaine) and othert agenst that were on the detail that day put in their memories too including Clint Hill, the agent that got Jackie back into the car and was always assigned to her.
I found it to be an interesting read and I have read many books on the JFK assasination.

Stone2065
04-11-2011, 04:19 PM
Actually, according to Jackie herself, in an interview many years later, she was scrambling for a chunk of skull that flew out of JFK's head, thinking that somehow, if she had that, they may be able to help him... totally wacked out thought process, but considering she was scared ****less, perfectly understandable.

Which brings another point for those that state that all shots came from the rear... a chunk of skull goes TOWARDS the direction of the shots? Not away from the direction of the shot? Huh?

Not being trollish, just saying...

waltzingmatilda
08-09-2011, 09:04 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023418/Jackie-O-tapes-reveal-JFKs-affairs-believed-death.html

Jackie Onassis believed that Lyndon B Johnson and a cabal of Texas tycoons were involved in the assassination of her husband John F Kennedy, ‘explosive’ recordings are set to reveal.
The secret tapes will show that the former first lady felt that her husband’s successor was at the heart of the plot to murder him.
She became convinced that the then vice president, along with businessmen in the South, had orchestrated the Dallas shooting, with gunman Lee Harvey Oswald – long claimed to have been a lone assassin – merely part of a much larger conspiracy.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023418/Jackie-O-tapes-reveal-JFKs-affairs-believed-death.html#ixzz1UXJgHrry

A fellow sleuth had proposed this theory a few pages back with a link. I'll go back and see if I can find it. The info pretty much convinced me that LBJ was involved in JFK's murder. MOO

wm

waltzingmatilda
08-09-2011, 09:08 AM
Here is the link I referred to in my previous post....

http://viewzone2.com/lbj/indexx.html

wm

Stone2065
08-10-2011, 03:52 AM
I haven't posted here in a while, but just had a quick query.

I had asked about powder burns/particles on either Connally, or Jackie, or JFK, and no one seems to have answered. As I said, I wasn't being trollish, but talking as one that HAS been shot at 6' or less, there's a LOT of unburnt powder, skin damage, etc. and I WAS literally picking tiny particles of unburned powder out of my skin for over 20 years...

kline
08-10-2011, 05:54 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023418/Jackie-O-tapes-reveal-JFKs-affairs-believed-death.html

Jackie Onassis believed that Lyndon B Johnson and a cabal of Texas tycoons were involved in the assassination of her husband John F Kennedy, ‘explosive’ recordings are set to reveal.
The secret tapes will show that the former first lady felt that her husband’s successor was at the heart of the plot to murder him.
She became convinced that the then vice president, along with businessmen in the South, had orchestrated the Dallas shooting, with gunman Lee Harvey Oswald – long claimed to have been a lone assassin – merely part of a much larger conspiracy.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023418/Jackie-O-tapes-reveal-JFKs-affairs-believed-death.html#ixzz1UXJgHrry

A fellow sleuth had proposed this theory a few pages back with a link. I'll go back and see if I can find it. The info pretty much convinced me that LBJ was involved in JFK's murder. MOO

wm
I dont know about Johnson being involved but Ive always felt Radical Right factions whether in the private sector or Government were responsible.(Of course I should issue the disclaimer that I have a tendency to blame the Right for practicaly everything so grain of salt advised.)
However after seeing the Zapruder film (and I too have shot guns all my life)nothing will ever convince me that the final headshot came from anyplace but the Right/Front.
I can almost hear the subtext for that shot: "That Dingbat Oswald blew it!....Finish him!!"

KarlK
12-16-2011, 06:32 PM
However after seeing the Zapruder film (and I too have shot guns all my life)nothing will ever convince me that the final headshot came from anyplace but the Right/Front.

Those who have seen color pictures of the autopsy would agree.

Dreamnine
12-17-2011, 08:00 AM
I was interested to read in 11/22/63 that Stephen King comes down very much on the idea of Oswald as the lone gunman (although his wife, Tabitha, is with the conspiracists).

Me, I just don't know... no matter how much I read.

Dreamnine
12-17-2011, 08:49 AM
In a related matter, I thought the members would like to know about Chappaquiddick. Below is a chapter from Robert Cutler's book, The Taking of America 1-2-3. Chapter 7
The Control of the Kennedys
Threats & Chappaquiddick

Chappaquiddick. A careful examination of the real evidence in this event shows that Ted Kennedy was framed in the killing of Mary Joe Kopechne and then his life and his children's lives threatened if he ever told the truth about what happened. The facts in the case and the conclusions that can be drawn from them are contained in a book by Boston researcher Robert Cutler.[2] (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html#fn2)
Ted's withdrawal from the presidential race in November 1975. It is a fact that all of his and Robert's children were being protected by the Secret Service for five days in November 1975. A threat had been made against the children's lives unless he officially announced his withdrawal. He made the announcement and has stuck to it ever since. The Secret Service protection ended the day after he made the announcement.
It does not seem likely that Senator Kennedy would withdraw from the race because of a threat from a lone nut or from some obscure group. He remembers the 1965 threat and Chappaquiddick very well. He knows about the Power Control Group and he knows their enormous capability. He knows what they did to his brothers. He has no choice but to hope that somehow, sometime, the Group will be exposed. But he dares not let them believe he would ever have anything to do with it. Publicly he will always have to support the Warren Commission and continue to state that he will not run for president. Privately he is forced to ask his closest friends and his relatives not to get involved with new investigations, and to help protect his children. Some of them know the truth. Others do not, and are puzzled by his behavior. They go along with it under the assumption that he has good and sufficient reasons not to open the can of worms represented by the conspiracies in his brother's deaths.
The Power Control Group faced up to the Ted Kennedy and Kennedy family problem very early. They used the threat against the Kennedy children's lives very effectively between 1963 and 1968 to silence Bobby and the rest of the family and friends who knew the truth. It was necessary to assassinate Bobby in 1968 because with the power of the presidency he could have prevented the Group from harming the children. When Teddy began making moves to run for president in 1969 for the 1972 election, the Group decided to put some real action behind their threats. Killing Teddy in 1969 would have been too much. They selected a new way of eliminating him as a candidate. They framed him with the death of a young girl, and threw sexual overtones in for good measure.
Here is what happened according to Cutler's analysis of the evidence. The Group hired several men and at least one woman to be at Chappaquiddick during the weekend of the yacht race and the planned party on the island. They ambushed Ted and Mary Jo after they left the cottage and knocked Ted out with blows to his head and body. They took the unconscious or semi-conscious Kennedy to Martha's Vineyard and deposited him in his hotel room. Another group took Mary Jo to the bridge in Ted's car, force fed her with a knock out potion of alcoholic beverage, placed her in the back seat, and caused the car to accelerate off the side of the bridge into the water. They broke the windows on one side of the car to insure the entry of water; then they watched the car until they were sure Mary Jo would not escape.
Mary Jo actually regained consciousness and pushed her way to the top of the car (which was actually the bottom of the car -- it had landed on its roof) and died from asphyxiation. The group with Teddy revived him early in the morning and let him know he had a problem. Possibly they told him that Mary Jo had been kidnapped. They told him his children would be killed if he told anyone what had happened and that he would hear from them. On Chappaquiddick, the other group made contact with Markham and Gargan, Ted's cousin and lawyer. They told both men that Mary Jo was at the bottom of the river and that Ted would have to make up a story about it, not revealing the existence of the group. One of the men resembled Ted and his voice sounded something like Ted's. Markham and Gargan were instructed to go the the Vineyard on the morning ferry, tell Ted where Mary Jo was, and come back to the island to wait for a phone call at a pay station near the ferry on the Chappaquiddick side.
The two men did as they were told and Ted found out what had happened to Mary Jo that morning. The three men returned to the pay phone and received their instructions to concoct a story about the "accident" and to report it to the police. The threat against Ted's children was repeated at that time.
Ted, Markham and Gargan went right away to police chief Arena's office on the Vineyard where Ted reported the so-called "accident." Almost at the same time scuba diver John Farror was pulling Mary Jo out of the water, since two boys who had gone fishing earlier that morning had spotted the car and reported it.
Ted called together a small coterie of friends and advisors including family lawyer Burke Marshall, Robert MacNamara, Ted Sorenson, and others. They met on Squaw Island near the Kennedy compound at Hyannisport for three days. At the end of that time they had manufactured the story which Ted told on TV, and later at the inquest. Bob Cutler calls the story, "the shroud." Even the most cursory examination of the story shows it was full of holes and an impossible explanation of what happened. Ted's claim that he made the wrong turn down the dirt road toward the bridge by mistake is an obvious lie. His claim that he swam the channel back to Martha's Vineyard is not believable. His description of how he got out of the car under water and then dove down to try to rescue Mary Jo is impossible. Markham and Gargan's claims that they kept diving after Mary Jo are also unbelievable.
The evidence for the Cutler scenario is substantial. It begins with the marks on the bridge and the position of the car in the water. The marks show that the car was standing still on the bridge and then accelerated off the edge, moving at a much higher speed than Kennedy claimed. The distance the car travelled in the air also confirms this. The damage to the car on two sides and on top plus the damage to the windshield and the rear view mirror stanchion [3] (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html#fn3) prove that some of the damage had to have been inflicted before the car left the bridge.
The blood on the back and on the sleeves of Mary Jo's blouse proves that a wound was inflicted before she left the bridge.[4] (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html#fn4) The alcohol in her bloodstream proves she was drugged, since all witnesses testified she never drank and did not drink that night. The fact that she was in the back seat when her body was recovered indicates that is where she was when the car hit the water. There was no way she could have dived downward against the inrushing water and moved from the front to the back seat underneath the upside-down seat back.
The wounds on the back of Ted Kennedy's skull, those just above his ear and the large bump on the top indicate he was knocked out. His actions at the hotel the next morning show he was not aware of Mary Jo's death until Markham and Gargan arrived. The trip to the pay phone on Chappaquiddick can only be explained by his receiving a call there, not making one. There were plenty of pay phones in or near Ted's hotel if he needed to make a private call. The tides in the channel and the direction in which Ted claimed he swam do not match. In addition it would have been a superhuman feat to have made it across the channel (as proven by several professionals who subsequently tried it).
Deputy Sheriff Christopher Look's testimony, coupled with the testimony of Ray LaRosa and two Lyons girls, proves that there were two people in Ted's car with Mary Jo at 12:45 PM. The three party members walking along the road south toward the cottage confirmed the time that Mr. Look drove by. He stopped to ask if they needed a ride. Look says that just prior to that he encountered Ted's car parked facing north at the juncture of the main road and the dirt road. It was on a short extension of the north-south section of the road junction to the north of the "T". He says he saw a man driving, a woman in the seat beside him, and what he thought was another woman lying on the back seat. He remembered a portion of the license plate which matched Ted's car, as did the description of the car. Markham, Gargan and Ted's driver's testimony show that someone they talked to in the pitch black night sounded like Ted and was about his height and build.
None of the above evidence was ever explained by Ted or by anyone else at the inquest or at the hearing on the case demanded by district attorney Edward Dinis. No autopsy was ever allowed on Mary Jo's body (her family objected), and Ted made it possible to fly her body home for burial rather quickly. Kennedy haters have seized upon Chappaquiddick to enlarge the sexual image now being promoted of both Ted and Jack Kennedy. Books like "Teddy Bare" take full advantage of the situation.
Just which operatives in the Power Control Group at the high levels or the lower levels were on Chappaquiddick Island? No definite evidence has surfaced as yet, except for an indication that there was at least one woman and at least three men, one of whom resembled Ted Kennedy and who sounded like him in the darkness. However, two pieces of testimony in the Watergate hearings provide significant clues as to which of the known JFK case conspirators may have been there.
E. Howard Hunt told of a strange trip to Hyannisport to see a local citizen there about the Chappaquiddick incident. Hunt's cover story on this trip was that he was digging up dirt on Ted Kennedy for use in the 1972 campaign. The story does not make much sense if one questions why Hunt would have to wear a disguise, including his famous red wig, and to use a voice-alteration device to make himself sound like someone else. If, on the other hand, Hunt's purpose was to return to the scene of his crime just to make sure that no one who might have seen his group at the bridge or elsewhere would talk, then the disguise and the voice box make sense.
The other important testimony came from Tony Ulasewicz who said he was ordered by the Plumbers to fly immediately to Chappaquiddick and dig up dirt on Ted. The only problem Tony has is that, according to his testimony, he arrived early on the morning of the "accident", before the whole incident had been made public. Ulasewicz is the right height and weight to resemble Kennedy and with a CIA voice-alteration device he presumably could be made to sound like him. There is a distinct possibility that Hunt and Tony were there when it happened.
The threats by the Power Control Group, the frame-up at Chappaquiddick, and the murders of Jack and Bobby Kennedy cannot have failed to take their toll on all of the Kennedys. Rose, Ted, Jackie, Ethel and the other close family members must be very tired of it all by now. They can certainly not be blamed for hoping it will all go away. Investigations like those proposed by Henry Gonzalez and Thomas Downing only raised the spectre of the powerful Control Group taking revenge by kidnapping some of the seventeen children.
It was no wonder that a close Kennedy friend and ally in California, Representative Burton, said that he would oppose the Downing and Gonzalez resolutions unless Ted Kennedy put his stamp of approval on them. While the sympathies of every decent American go out to them, the future of our country and the freedom of the people to control their own destiny through the election process mean more than the lives of all the Kennedys put together. If John Kennedy were alive today he would probably make the same statement.
John Dean summed it up when he said to Richard Nixon as recorded on the White House tapes in 1973: "If Teddy knew the bear trap he was walking into at Chappaquiddick. . . ."[5] (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html#fn5)

The fabulous Jackie -- Christian Cafarakis -- Productions de Paris -- 1972 You the Jury -- Robert Cutler -- Self Published -- 1974 A rope attached to the stick which held the Oldsmobile throttle wide open caught the drivers rear view mirror and tore it loose so that it was hanging by the rear bolt. There was no other mark on the left side of the car. A sliver of glass from two broken windows no doubt caused this bleeding since Mary Jo was already face down and unconscious in the rear seat. Since there was no autopsy this clean cut went unnoticed by the embalmers. On page 121, White House Tapes Paperback Edition, published by New York Times


This is a very old post but most informative.. I always had my doubts about Chappaquiddick - whether Ted was even guilty.

KarlK
12-17-2011, 03:47 PM
I was interested to read in 11/22/63 that Stephen King comes down very much on the idea of Oswald as the lone gunman (although his wife, Tabitha, is with the conspiracists).

Me, I just don't know... no matter how much I read.

If we set aside all evidence that proves or disproves Oswald's involvement there remains one major obstacle to the lone gunman theory: lack of motive. Even those who claim Oswald was deranged have to admit that his behavior after the assassination was nothing like that of Booth, Guiteau or Czolgosz who all displayed pride in their action, as if convinced that they had done the country a favor. Unlike them Oswald did not admit to having shot at the president, depriving himself of the sort of fame a bona fide presidential assassin would have been seeking.

On the other hand if there was a conspiracy, the choice of selecting Oswald as a patsy leaves a lot to be desired. It would have made more sense to frame a reactionary Grand Dragon or militia type and then claim Kennedy was assassinated simply because he was Catholic, or Irish, or some other demented reason that would only make sense to an extremist. Moreover, it makes little sense to use someone whose poor marksmanship was documented through military records.

Unless of course someone had planned in advance that Oswald would never see his day in court and therefore no pesky defense team would be able to raise embarrassing questions.

HMSHood
12-17-2011, 06:17 PM
Lee Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby for reasons that are unknown ranging from sparing Jacquelyn Kennedy of the trial to shutting him up. Ruby was a nighclub owner and had been known to have ties with the Mafia and organized crime. Now, if Oswald was not shot by Ruby, I wonder what he would say. I know Oswald lived in the Soviet Union and was a hard core Communist.

I think the Kennedy Assassination was a conspiracy motivated by revenge. Likely Communists or Mafia. Communists from Soviet Union and Cuba in retaliation for the Cuban Missile Crisis. Organized crime was being prosecuted more under the Kennedy Administration and many would be driven by revenge.

Did the KGB Arrange the Assassination of John F. Kennedy?
http://www.scientiapress.com/findings/kgbkennedy.htm

Winward1
12-17-2011, 08:28 PM
Oswald was killed by Ruby because nitwit cops gave the lunatic the opportunity and he was a lunatic.

Give the access the cops were giving just about anyone to Oswald, it's amazing the latter lived as long as he did.

KarlK
12-17-2011, 10:59 PM
Lee Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby for reasons that are unknown ranging from sparing Jacquelyn Kennedy of the trial to shutting him up. Ruby was a nighclub owner and had been known to have ties with the Mafia and organized crime.

Ruby was a small-time gangster and police informant. It's his latter status that allowed him to get close to enough to Oswald to shoot him. I believe that Oswald being assassinated so shortly after JFK has done more to feed conspiracy theories than any other circumstantial element save the Zapruder film.

This would tend to support a mob hit on the president followed by a classic "silencing" of a witness. But there is a problem with this scenario. Mob hit men are not known to go on suicide missions yet there was no way out for Ruby, he was 100% sure to get caught if not killed on the spot. Now unless he already knew he had a terminal disease his actions are difficult to explain. He didn't exactly fit the profile of a hotheaded patriot out to avenge the slaying of the president.


I know Oswald lived in the Soviet Union and was a hard core Communist.

No doubt he had once been a communist but by 1962 by all accounts he had grown disillusioned, stating that life under a communist regime was drab and boring. I don't think Oswald was hard-core anything, he was not a passionate man. He was just an unstable, depressive, aimless individual.

I think the Kennedy Assassination was a conspiracy motivated by revenge. Likely Communists or Mafia. Communists from Soviet Union and Cuba in retaliation for the Cuban Missile Crisis.

I doubt that, the Soviet government would never have condoned such an action unless they were willing to risk war, which they were not. This had been clearly demonstrated by the missile crisis. Besides, a state-sponsored assassination of this magnitude would likely not have involved someone as clumsy and unstable as Oswald. Most Western experts on Soviet policies at the time reported that the news of Kennedy's death came as an unwelcome surprise to the Kremlin, which is confirmed by archived documents that were made available after the fall of communism in Russia.

Organized crime was being prosecuted more under the Kennedy Administration and many would be driven by revenge.

If mobsters were involved they likely did so without the Mafia hierarchy's authorization because such a scheme was guaranteed to backfire. Mob bosses knew very well that killing JFK would send his brother Bob and Hoover on an unprecedented manhunt with the blessing of Congress that would leave no rock unturned. You don't shoot at a pack of wolves if you only have one bullet.

wv171
12-19-2011, 06:11 AM
This is 1 case all of us need to slove one way or other. If and appears govt. can't agree on this case maybe its up to us..
Basic this is our Country and if elections are rig or people put into power that never should be in power in the first place this puts our whole country in danger..

My self I study this case on and off for over 20 years and no way I am a expert on it..

But I would not Trust LBJ or Tricky Dick both on a friendly game of cards at home kitchen table.. Much less anything more higher than penny annie game of card's with them 2..

Has it been proven as a fact LBJ was going be drop from ticket in 1964 election???
Appears what I found out LBJ and his friends was on a very slick banna peel and heading to jail if JFK stay in the White House..

Anyway myself look at this LBJ had the most to gain with JFK out of the pitcher..

Orders was to get Airborne ASAP, And here LBJ hold up the whole show waiting for Federal Judge to swear him in before he left Texas..If this was a direct threat to leadership of USA head offical's why set there on tarmac in open waiting on a Federal Judge??? Kind like he wanted be sure he was President before even entering Washington DC.. And not afraid of any type attack on himself setting there eatting Chicken Noddle Soup...

Tippit by his actions was looking for 1 person very hard when he was killed even to the report he pulled a car over just to look in back seat to see if somebody was hidden there..

Tippit just might end up a huge hero in this case..Tippit just might seen something he should of not seen, I never seen any sign of major wrong doings in his pass..He appears to myself as a old country boy that just trying to make a living for his family...Never found no bones in his closet..

Both LBJ & Tricky Dick had enough bones hidden in there background thousand wonders they was not jailed before they enter public life. Much less after it... What was it LBJ Grandmother said LBJ will end up as President or In Jail one of the 2 in his life time...That saying something coming stright from his own Grandmother..

But this case I feel should been clear up long time ago... Question is Why this long ??? All these great investigation groups like FBI, SS, and others could not even slove this case in over 48 years. Pretty bad police work in my book..

I seen City Police Chiefs fired for a whole lot less than that..

KarlK
12-20-2011, 03:39 PM
Appears what I found out LBJ and his friends was on a very slick banna peel and heading to jail if JFK stay in the White House..

But if LBJ was in danger of indictment (what for?) taking JFK out would be pretty useless unless LBJ was somehow able to replace Kennedy's Cabinet with his own cronies which he did not, not even after being elected in his own right in '64. If LBJ was so afraid of JFK why keep such staunch JFK men as Bobby and McNamara by his side? Unless we are willing to accept that Bobby had something to do with his brother's assassination the LBJ connection is weak at best.


Anyway myself look at this LBJ had the most to gain with JFK out of the pitcher..He also had the most to lose, for that very reason. My take is that some people may have thought that having LBJ at the White House would benefit them, but were ultimately proven wrong when government policies and key policy-makers remained in place under LBJ. From a political point of view JFK's assassination had little effect.


Orders was to get Airborne ASAP, And here LBJ hold up the whole show waiting for Federal Judge to swear him in before he left Texas..This was proper protocol, they were going by the rules.


If this was a direct threat to leadership of USA head offical's why set there on tarmac in open waiting on a Federal Judge???He was aboard Air Force One, not out in the open. It is not unreasonable to think that SS wanted to assess possible threats to the plane in flight before allowing it to take off, and figured it was safer on the ground until then.


But this case I feel should been clear up long time ago... Question is Why this long ??? All these great investigation groups like FBI, SS, and others could not even slove this case in over 48 years. Pretty bad police work in my bookIt probably shouldn't come as a surprise to you that this was not investigated like a "standard" murder case. Went straight up to Congress and from there, the Warren Commission. Because of this, investigative agencies quickly found themselves so entangled in red tape that they could barely move a pinkie.

liz b.
12-20-2011, 08:33 PM
Agree that it had a very limited political impact. A strange coincidence among many : it was all about brothers being murdered.

1. The Kennedy brothers, Jack and Robert.

2. Ngo Din Diem and his brother. Murdered in Saigon, just before the JFK murder.

3. I want to include Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and his brother A.D. King. MLK's brother was also a preacher.Also active in the non violent civil rights movement. He had problems with depression, and alcohol, a few years before he died. He was found in his swimming pool.Death ruled a drowning.No alcohol present,or drugs. Which is strange to me, because he was known to be a strong swimmer,and loved the water.

In Oliver Stone's movie "Nixon", the Nixon character starts tripping to the Haldemann character about the "deaths of brothers "...Weird.

GoBrewers
12-30-2011, 03:44 PM
I feel the documentary "The Longoria Affair" is a great detailed look into the corruption of LBJ. It shows a great detail of the good things he has done, but also has small segments on the lies and forced denial of his political standing due to his Texan superiors. The doc is on netflix, and is worthwhile even if you aren't interested in the possibilities of LBJ being involved in the assassination of JFK

Richard
11-22-2013, 12:29 PM
Today marks the 50 year anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

While the murder was officially solved and explained by the Warren Commission in October 1964 - just in time for the '64 Presidential election - there are many people today who believe that there was more to the story than the "official" report stated.

I recently re-read the actual Warren Commission Report. It is a well written document which presents evidence in a factual manner and concludes that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone nut killer, and that there was no Conspiracy whatsoever.

The final conclusion of the report was actually the opening premise. FBI director J. Edgar Hoover came to that conclusion before President Johnson even formed and convened the Commission, and it was presented to them on the first day that they met.

The report is very much like a prosecutor's brief. That is, all evidence which tended to implicate Oswald as the one and only shooter was presented, while any conflicting evidence was left out of the summary or explained away.

Here is an example regarding the number of shots fired. The report states (page107): "The consensus among the witnesses at the scene was that three shots were fired. However, some heard only two shots, while others testified that they heard four and perhaps as many as five or six shots." The report does not state how they arrived at the "consensus" of three shots. No mathematical statistics were given as to the number of witnesses and their estimates was included.

The driving "proof" for the Commission concluding that three shots were fired was stated thus: "Nevertheless, the preponderance of the evidence, in particular the three spent cartridges, led the Commission to conclude that there were three shots fired."

In other words, since three shell casings were found in the Dallas School Book Depository, only three shots were fired - in spite of what numerous witnesses heard and in spite of other possible shooting positions.

Isabelle
11-22-2013, 03:07 PM
I agree LBJ was at the heart of the assassination.

Kimberlyd125
11-22-2013, 08:17 PM
I think Oswald was responsible for all three shots.
But, I'm not sure he was acting alone.
In other words, I think someone else may have been involved in the planning or even the "hiring" of Oswald.
But I believe he was the only shooter that day.

JMO

ktgirl
11-22-2013, 09:12 PM
A really great book that gives some insight on Lee Harvey Oswald, the mafia, etc:

Dr. Mary&#39;s Monkey: How the Unsolved Murder of a Doctor, a Secret Laboratory in New Orleans and Cancer-Causing Monkey Viruses are Linked to Lee Harvey ... Assassination and Emerging Global Epidemics: Edward T. Haslam, Jim Marrs: 9780977795307: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TH12TBRZL.@@AMEPARAM@@51TH12TBRZL

And a very short book worth reading:

A Rose by Many Other Names: Rose Cherami & the JFK Assassination: Todd C. Elliott: 9781937584634: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qeMtLq52L.@@AMEPARAM@@51qeMtLq52L

December
11-24-2013, 08:54 AM
How long until the sealed evidence is opened?

I think it's the driver who did it. I could be wrong.

However, I think more than one person shot at the car.

As for LBJ, I can understand easily that anyone might guess he was behind it. It seems weird he would chose to do such a thing in his home state, but maybe he thought people would be more sympathetic to him there.

A contributing factor to the strangeness of this case is the weird back brace type of thing JFK was wearing under his clothing. There are photos of it along with his shirt (after these items were removed from his body), but the page I found it on before had some GRUESOME photos right alongside it. However, Kennedy was rather stiffly held in place by this contraption.. even before he was shot. He played it off like he was fine and healthy and not strapped into such a thing when he was photographed earlier that same day.

I also read that Jackie had just come back from a vacation during which she spent time with Onasis (of all people). And that she did not usually go in the car with Jack like this... so, there is that... But, OTOH, she refused to even remove her clothing that was all bloodstained because she was too upset. So, I do not think she wanted to kill her husband. IDK...

I feel that whatever is in the files must be something they felt people would find upsetting. If it was just more proof against Oswald then I think it would have been released a long time ago. Or if it was proof against some random person from the grassy knoll or the storm drain, again.. I think it would have been released by now. But who knows.

Richard
11-25-2013, 11:26 AM
Today marks the 50 year anniversary of the funeral of JFK. Amazing how the news media merged everything about that time into one day for their specials.

There are indeed many different theories about what actually happened, who was responsible, and why. Much of it has been fueled by the secrecy surrounding some of the evidence, and much of it coming out of the Warren Commission's report.

Whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald was an active participant in the murder, or if so whether he acted alone or with others has always been the basic question. The Warren Commission concluded that he was the sole shooter and that he acted alone. But in attempting to prove their case, they were forced to ignore a lot of testimony from eyewitnesses, and to explain away a lot of other testimony and evidence.

To accept the Warren Commission Report, one has to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was either the most skilled rifleman in the world, or the absolute luckiest. The official version has him shooting his clumsey bolt action rifle three times in between 4.8 and 7 seconds, while achieving two out of three fatal hits at a moving target from six stories up. THEN, walking diagonally across the 6th floor (where he was the ONLY person present), descending by stairs to the second floor in 1 minute, 15 seconds, where he was confronted by a policeman and his own boss in a lunch room. Both his boss and the police officer stated that Oswald was very calm and not out of breath. He then walked calmly and quietly down another flight of stairs, diagonally through the first floor drinking a coca cola, and out the building, past a police officer at the front entrance.

Although he was not then identified as a suspect, a fairly accurate description of him went out over the police radios within 15 minutes of the shooting.

Now this mastermind of the entire assassination next walks 7 blocks east and boards a bus heading west back toward the School Book Depository building. He gets off the bus and requests a paper transfer slip as he exits. He then walks to a bus terminal and gets in a taxi, but first offers the cab to an old lady who declines. He rides in the cab for about five minutes and exits, giving the driver a five cent tip and 95 cent fare. He walks five minutes to his rooming house, puts on a jacket, pockets his pistol, and starts out on a meandering walk through his residential neighborhood.

At 1:15, only 45 minutes after the shooting, Dallas Police Officer Tippett sees Oswald walking, pulls up along side and calls him over to his squad car (number 10). As Tippet gets out of the car, Oswald shoots him four times in the presence of several witnesses, and then heads to the Texas Theater where he is subsequently arrested.

Oswald was questioned for 12 hours by Dallas Police and by the FBI, yet no notes or recordings exist of those interviews.

Of course, on Sunday 24 November 1963, Oswald is shot to death in the basement of the Police Department during his transfer to another jail.

While it was hard enough to accept Kennedy's death, the murder of Oswald put the icing on the cake for anyone with the slightest suspicions. The Warren Commission also had to explain that Oswald was silenced by another lone nut (Jack Ruby) who was acting out of misguided belief that he would be saving Jackie Kennedy from reurning to Dallas to testify in a trial.

What ever ideas, beliefs, or theories one has about the assassination, I recommend reading the Warren Commission's report as a starting point for further research and reading.

Isabelle
11-26-2013, 02:15 AM
25 more years before the sealed evidence is opened. I wish it could be forced open via the freedom of information act.

Richard
11-27-2013, 04:51 PM
Sealing any evidence for so long only strengthens and encourages conspiracy theories and doubts about the "official" story.

And what happens when it is "unsealed" and something is missing? Even more doubt and disbelief.

We know that Kennedy's brain is missing from the Archives. And we also know that the pink pillbox hat that Jackie was wearing has disappeared from the National Archives. So the thought that something else which rates being "sealed" for 75 years will also go missing before it is ever made public.