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View Full Version : My personal theory on the Alcala photos has changed **May be offensive to some**



norest4thewicked
03-09-2011, 05:13 PM
I have been a very passionate person about these photos and getting them out to the public. I have fought hard for my theories on these photos and have spent many a sleepless night pouring over them. But, I am beginning to have a different belief about them.

I am a female photographer and have very good visual skills. I have past experience in LE as well. So, all this basically means is that I look at things possibly different than some. I have known personally many MANY male photographers who used their cameras for reasons other than just to take wonderful photographs. I currently know some. They use their cameras as a way to see naked women or women in demeaning positions, for their own personal gratification. Honestly, ANYONE can purchase a camera and say that they are a photographer. I currently know OF a photographer (models have talked about him to me) who started out doing nudes, and then he said he had a "project" of taking photos of nude women while they were masturbating and climaxing. He got some takers on that and now I've heard that he sometimes "helps" the girls with this if they are unable to climax alone. All of this is in the name of "art"...right? What's next with this sleeze ball? What happens when this isn't satisfying his sickness anymore?

Alcala may have loved photography and his photos were okay when he had girls actually posing for him in a photo setting. But, his being a "photographer" was just an avenue that he took to rape and murder these women. You can tell in these photos that a lot of them are women who are naked. And, considering that there were almost 1000 photos and we saw only a little over 100 since they were unviewable due to content, we know that this was his ultimate goal.

In my opinion, every one of these photos that we've seen were photos that went no further than what we see on the photos - EXCEPT for the backbend girl in the woods (and I'm convinced now that this IS a girl and that is why it was cut off at the top) and the dark haired girl with the redness around her mouth. I feel that the dark haired girl was at the very least raped and the backbend person as well. Both of these girls possibly were killed, but my new theory is that Alcala had a bunch of photos, including sexual ones and any photo he took of a person he actually killed was removed from the group of photos. I think he was careful about that, but either didn't kill the two mentioned above, or he missed them.

The vast majority of the people in the photos didn't look in any distress. The Farrah Fawcett woman looked pissed, but I think that is because he spent a lot of time trolling and stalking potential victims and what better way than to be out in big groups taking photos of anonymous people so that when the "potential victim" sees him, she will think he was legit because, after all, she'd seen him around and he's obviously a photographer.
Many of these photos were voyeur photos and the people never even knew their photo was being taken. Some might have been girls he'd love to get back to wherever he killed them and kill them, but it wasn't shown in these photos.

There are no dead people propped up against walls or windows. There are no people smiling after they'd been raped and/or tortured. It's just not possible and not in his MO. I look into the eyes of people every day in my job and can tell you that expression in ones eyes are truly the window to the soul. There is not one photo in this group (except the two mentioned above) that look anything other than a voyeuristic photo, a posed photo or just a casual - "Hey, I'm a photographer. Want me to snap your picture?" We know a lot of them were inside his apartment. We also know that Alcala had girlfriends and was able not to kill every woman he came across. Isn't it possible that a man who looked like Alcala, who had such a high IQ and was apparently very social, could have friends? I mean the guy didn't kill every person he ever encountered. And, he loved to be a buddy it appears because he always had "high" teenagers around him. Many of these photos are of people high...not in distress. It's pretty easy to spot that.

So...I now believe that these photos do not include dead people (with the exceptions mentioned previously). Its just my personal, but professional opinion as well. As a photographer, we look at everything about body language and especially a persons face/eyes. :twocents::twocents:

Redbird
03-09-2011, 05:23 PM
I agree with you that except for the two you mentioned they are pictures of people most likely alive. I slightly disagree that they are just casual pictures. What I am trying to say is I think a lot of these women look unhappy and some look alarmed or afraid. You can imagine that Alcala was making suggestions they were not comfortable with. And there are disturbing marks and possible bruises on some. I think these are some "that got away." As many rape victims do not want to report being raped, probably most of these women in distress were just glad to get away from him.

Bewitchingstorm
03-09-2011, 05:59 PM
We certainly do not know what transpired after these pictures were taken and what, if anything Alcala did to them. I guess that is what is most haunting about the pictures as a whole. We do not know what happened afterward.

Though I agree that he most likely did not murder each and every woman he encountered, there is a strong suspicion that more victims are out there. I agree with Redbird that there are many pictures which reflect unhappiness and women who are not entirely comfortable at that point in time (for whatever reason). We all know what Alcala is capable of and that in itself is cause for alarm when looking at these pictures. We simply do not know what happened. I sense true sadness and fear in many of the faces I see.

norest4thewicked
03-09-2011, 06:23 PM
I believe that most "bruises and marks" seen on these women can be explained through the pixelation of a film camera and enlarging these photos into digital. I've explained that process before at length and even given photo examples. But it seems that no one wants to hear that. Some could be explained by the marks clothing makes when it digs into the skin. I see "very loaded" in the eyes of many. I see "who are you to be taking my photo..go away" in some of them. I see "surprise and shock" in some because, after all, most people don't like strangers taking photos of them out of the blue. But, of the women who were inside his apartment, I don't see fear or distress. That's just me though...as a photographer who looks into people's faces every day. Everyone is definitely entitled to their own opinion, of course.

Believe me, I despise this man as much as the next person, and have spent countless hours working on trying to get these photos out, as a lot of us have done. And, of course no one knows what transpired after the photo was taken. But, it's a pretty big jump from taking a candid photo of a person in a public setting to a murder. It's just not feasible. And, if we are to believe even that some of these women (and boys) were murdered, then we must believe that all of them were because I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is no way to tell.

Yes, I do believe that there are probably many more victims out there. I believe that they will be found (at least some of them) at some point. But, I just don't think they are documented in these photos.

reasypeasy
03-10-2011, 11:38 AM
We know that the photos we have been allowed to see include some photos of people he met and didn't harm. We know that they include at least one set of not terribly technically wonderful photos that have in them a minor celebrity (the five spot club photos) that he may have been keeping so he could name drop later. We know that there are some photos that seem to imply a sense of fondness for the subject and he has captured their cheeriness or enthusiasm. We know that there are a surprisingly large number of photos (compared to most people's collections) where he has captured a subject looking nervous or revolted or stoned. We know that there are photos some people think are of injured subjects, but not everyone agrees. We know that there are some photos that he appears to have attempted some level of professionalism in, as though he wanted them to be portfolio photos. We know that the upside-down hanging person is a helluva weird and disturbing image even if you assume said person is still alive.

Obviously there are a bunch of photos the police have held back, and LE has given us to believe those photos include a lot of nakedness and some gruesomeness. I think, if we assume that the held back photos are similar to the released photos but more explicit, then the held back photos would include some casual nudes, more like the upside down hanging person, and as suggested by the swing prop in the picture of the woman with a bowl a few attempted glamour/commerical cheesecake or softcore shots. Whether there are also some attempts at hardcore commercial porn is anyone's guess. Same with whether there are lots of photos of posed dead bodies.

One question in my mind, is how much and in what ways did he edit down his full collection before taking it off to storage? I think this might depend upon how orderly he kept his collection. It is very easy to dispose of a wad of photos and negatives that are already sorted, not so easy to sort through thousands of photos while trying to pack up your life and get out. He may have been able to quickly dispose of the photos that were specifically of people he killed, if he kept his stuff neat.

Redbird
03-10-2011, 12:19 PM
Since he kept trophies, I think it is likely he photographed some of his victims. I think he either destroyed them later or hid them somewhere only he knows to this day.

plait
03-10-2011, 05:36 PM
We certainly do not know what transpired after these pictures were taken and what, if anything Alcala did to them. I guess that is what is most haunting about the pictures as a whole. We do not know what happened afterward.

Though I agree that he most likely did not murder each and every woman he encountered, there is a strong suspicion that more victims are out there. I agree with Redbird that there are many pictures which reflect unhappiness and women who are not entirely comfortable at that point in time (for whatever reason). We all know what Alcala is capable of and that in itself is cause for alarm when looking at these pictures. We simply do not know what happened. I sense true sadness and fear in many of the faces I see.
The 4 women that he is convicted of murdering. I think I read that they were posed, and photographed. ALSO Just the fact alone that he could do that to a 8 yr old child to me means that most of the folks here were murdered. WHERE R THEY AND WHY HAS ONLY LIKE 20 people have been ID. Many of these subject in the photos look scared like he pulled out some sort of weapon,and came at them.
I've seen in magazines were in tiny writing it has something like "these are only models" where the photos shows someone looking terrified to illustrate a story. I don't think Alcala was doing this I think he was really capturing the look of them as he was about to kill or brutalize them to satisfy his perversion.

Bewitchingstorm
03-10-2011, 07:17 PM
Since he kept trophies, I think it is likely he photographed some of his victims. I think he either destroyed them later or hid them somewhere only he knows to this day.

I agree. And we must not forget that, like some other serial killers, Alcala is intelligent. He enjoyed the process of killing and I agree that he might have kept souvenirs of some form, whether they be items from his victims or even pictures.

Redbird
03-10-2011, 07:35 PM
Orange County Deputy District Attorney Matt Murphy called Alcala a monster and said he deserved to die.

Murphy alleged that Alcala would strangle victims with his bare hands until they passed out; when they came to, he'd strangle them again with pantyhose or shoe laces. Once they were dead, he'd pose their bodies and take pictures.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/rodney_alcala/11.html

reasypeasy
03-10-2011, 08:36 PM
It was an era in which a woman who had a "near miss" with a weird as hell, violent and pushy guy would have been highly unlikely to report it. Nowadays a lot of work has been done on victim's rights and establishing the fact that a report of sexually coercive behavior is worth something to police for law enforcement purposes even if there isn't enough evidence to prosecute or the victim does not want to go through with the process. Back then, if you showed up at a police station to report a consensual encounter that had gone badly wrong, unless you were well underage or had some horrible injuries to show, chances were you'd get told to go away and not be such a loose woman in future.

plait
03-10-2011, 09:40 PM
it was an era in which a woman who had a "near miss" with a weird as hell, violent and pushy guy would have been highly unlikely to report it. Nowadays a lot of work has been done on victim's rights and establishing the fact that a report of sexually coercive behavior is worth something to police for law enforcement purposes even if there isn't enough evidence to prosecute or the victim does not want to go through with the process. Back then, if you showed up at a police station to report a consensual encounter that had gone badly wrong, unless you were well underage or had some horrible injuries to show, chances were you'd get told to go away and not be such a loose woman in future.

this is very true.

norest4thewicked
03-11-2011, 09:48 AM
Oh, I ABSOLUTELY agree that he DID photograph his victims. I just believe that if there were dead, posed women in these photos that LE has, they obviously aren't shown to us. I do think that the 900 other photos probably show a lot of this. But, this bunch of photos that we have seen are ones that they just don't know about and with the exception of the 2 mentioned above, these are mostly just voyeur shots, friends, models consenting to modeling and he didn't kill them. Remember that there have been 21 women come forward who have said that he photographed them and did not harm them? So we know that there are some he just stuck to his hobby of photography, rather than his hobby of killing.

WANM
03-11-2011, 08:59 PM
I see what you are saying and I do agree with your point of view. We know that some of these women survived because they have been found alive and some of them have even spoke of their experience with Alcala but I do believe some of these women were killed. Alcala was a very smart man but he believed he would never be caught. He encountered police so many times and was put in jail for various minor offenses but was never suspected of being a serial killer until the murder of Robin Samsoe. He never expected to be caught and I believe he planned on killing until the day he died. He had some similar characteristics to an organized killer, like Ted Bundy, but he was also disorganized at times. He wasn't constantly covering his tracks because-
1. He believed he would never be caught.
2. He used his charm and wit to get him out of uncomfortable situations.

I believe he put those photos in his Seattle, WA storage locker to come and get letter, possibly after the trial of Robin Samsoe, because he knew the police were closing in on him. I think he fully believed that he was going to talk his way out of being guilty in Robin's murder and get out free. He planned to hide the photos and come back and get them once the police were off his back. Some missing women, like Cynthia Coon and Jeannette Kamahele, I believe were in these pictures and I believe they were killed by him too. But for various reasons, I believe a lot of these women were lucky, and they got away from him.

sfbaynancydrew
03-11-2011, 09:15 PM
I would tend to agree with a *lot* of what you're saying.

However, I'm pretty sure it's been reported that six of them were thought to be that of missing women? It could have been more or less but for some reason six is standing out in my head. They said that family members had come forward stating that they believed a picture to be their missing family member and that it was being investigated.

But I think you're right about 80% of them. Most photographers I know take thousands and thousands of pictures. They are basically duds or just inspiration of the moment. Maybe he had these all segregated into a special pile somehow.

I am a little bit irritated that LO has been so tight lipped about which pics were identified, if anyone missing ever was positively identified, etc. It sort of defeats the purpose!

But yeah, I think most of these people are alive.

Bargle
03-12-2011, 10:01 AM
I am a little bit irritated that LO has been so tight lipped about which pics were identified, if anyone missing ever was positively identified, etc. It sort of defeats the purpose!

Exactly. That's why I think this has been poorly handled by LE.

Redbird
03-12-2011, 01:30 PM
Many of the photos were taken in his dirty apartments with clutter in the background. The dirty P-coat, the dirty rug. These clearly show his intent was to trap women in his apartment and force them to take off their clothes. Only a small percentage are aesthetically pleasing. I think the only girl that really looks like a model is the girl in the yellow shorts, probably filmed near Ellen Hover's grave. This man is such a monster.

norest4thewicked
03-12-2011, 02:38 PM
Many of the photos were taken in his dirty apartments with clutter in the background. The dirty P-coat, the dirty rug. These clearly show his intent was to trap women in his apartment and force them to take off their clothes. Only a small percentage are aesthetically pleasing. I think the only girl that really looks like a model is the girl in the yellow shorts, probably filmed near Ellen Hover's grave. This man is such a monster.

Interestingly though, we don't know of one of the victims that were killed in his apartment. He either killed them in their own homes or out in the woods. All of his known victims were known to be killed this way.

Georgia Wixted - Murdered in her apartment

Charlotte Lamb - Murdered in the laundry room of her apartment

Jill Parenteau - Murdered in her apartment

Jill Barcomb - Murdered outside

Robin Samsoe - Murdered outside

Cornelia Crilley - Murdered in her home

Ellen Hover - Murdered outside

Pamela Lambson - Murdered outside

I think that he knew that he would have trouble getting the victims from his apartment to a hiding place and this plan worked for him. He would either peep (as was my contention on at least one of the photos) and then break in and murder the victim. Or, he would use the ruse of modeling and get the woman into a remote location. The only one this doesn't match is Robin Samsoe, where he literally snatched her and forced her into a remote outdoor location. He may have done this previously, but the women who were found outside were all pretty enough that it is very conceivable that he lured them with his camera.

After all, getting rid of a dead body is a messy deal, even if there was no blood. And, his love for bashing in their heads after strangling would obviously leave blood. I believe that many rapes took place in the apartment, but I think that he could only get his real murderous Mojo on when he could complete the full ritual of his kill.

JudysSisterMaureen
08-17-2011, 07:44 AM
On a different thread - people thought that my sister resembled some of Alcala's victims / photographs. There were rumors in the 80s and early 90s that my sister was a part of a snuff film - none of which have ever surfaced.

I wonder how I could get my hands on the other 900 pictures - or if any of you have seen any of them, if my sister resembles any of the girls ??

http://youtu.be/2a1KVQtwH04 - a photo montage of Judy.
https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/show/8051 - her namus profile
MD MD - Judith Erin O'Donnell, 19, Baltimore, 30 Nov 1980 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - her websleuths thread.

Thanks for looking. I'll never give up looking. SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, knows SOMETHING!

CarlK90245
08-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Interestingly though, we don't know of one of the victims that were killed in his apartment. He either killed them in their own homes or out in the woods. All of his known victims were known to be killed this way.

Georgia Wixted - Murdered in her apartment

Charlotte Lamb - Murdered in the laundry room of her apartment

Jill Parenteau - Murdered in her apartment

Jill Barcomb - Murdered outside

Robin Samsoe - Murdered outside

Cornelia Crilley - Murdered in her home

Ellen Hover - Murdered outside

Pamela Lambson - Murdered outside

I think that he knew that he would have trouble getting the victims from his apartment to a hiding place and this plan worked for him. He would either peep (as was my contention on at least one of the photos) and then break in and murder the victim. Or, he would use the ruse of modeling and get the woman into a remote location. The only one this doesn't match is Robin Samsoe, where he literally snatched her and forced her into a remote outdoor location. He may have done this previously, but the women who were found outside were all pretty enough that it is very conceivable that he lured them with his camera.

After all, getting rid of a dead body is a messy deal, even if there was no blood. And, his love for bashing in their heads after strangling would obviously leave blood. I believe that many rapes took place in the apartment, but I think that he could only get his real murderous Mojo on when he could complete the full ritual of his kill.

Correction to your comment:

Charlotte Lamb was not killed in the laundry room of her apartment, she lived in Santa Monica (IIRC) and her body was dumped in the laundry room of an apparently randomly selected apartment building at the end of a cul-de-sac in El Segundo. I sent you these photos a few weeks ago, but I am posting them here for the others to see.


The laundry room was adjacent to the carports at the Northeast corner of the property
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Misc%20Websleuths%20Images/2180554290045078242S200x200Q851.jpghttp://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Misc%20Websleuths%20Images/2176770260045078242S200x200Q851.jpg
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Misc%20Websleuths%20Images/2274030400045078242S500x500Q851.jpg


620 Illinois Court El Segundo CA Map - Google Maps

norest4thewicked
08-19-2011, 08:05 AM
Correction to your comment:

Charlotte Lamb was not killed in the laundry room of her apartment, she lived in Santa Monica (IIRC) and her body was dumped in the laundry room of an apparently randomly selected apartment building at the end of a cul-de-sac in El Segundo. I sent you these photos a few weeks ago, but I am posting them here for the others to see.


The laundry room was adjacent to the carports at the Northeast corner of the property
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Misc%20Websleuths%20Images/2180554290045078242S200x200Q851.jpghttp://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Misc%20Websleuths%20Images/2176770260045078242S200x200Q851.jpg
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Misc%20Websleuths%20Images/2274030400045078242S500x500Q851.jpg


620 Illinois Court El Segundo CA Map - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=620+Illinois+Court+El+Segundo+CA+Map&ll=33.924284,-118.39711&spn=0.004646,0.004447&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&gl=us&t=h&z=18&vpsrc=6)

Thanks Carl! I have a researcher doing a lot of the background info and that one must have slipped through the cracks. Also, I appreciate the photos! They help a lot to visualize the scenes!

Ambercat
12-23-2011, 07:17 PM
In my opinion, every one of these photos that we've seen were photos that went no further than what we see on the photos - EXCEPT for the backbend girl in the woods (and I'm convinced now that this IS a girl and that is why it was cut off at the top) and the dark haired girl with the redness around her mouth. I feel that the dark haired girl was at the very least raped and the backbend person as well. Both of these girls possibly were killed, but my new theory is that Alcala had a bunch of photos, including sexual ones and any photo he took of a person he actually killed was removed from the group of photos. I think he was careful about that, but either didn't kill the two mentioned above, or he missed them.

The vast majority of the people in the photos didn't look in any distress. The Farrah Fawcett woman looked pissed, but I think that is because he spent a lot of time trolling and stalking potential victims and what better way than to be out in big groups taking photos of anonymous people so that when the "potential victim" sees him, she will think he was legit because, after all, she'd seen him around and he's obviously a photographer.
Many of these photos were voyeur photos and the people never even knew their photo was being taken. Some might have been girls he'd love to get back to wherever he killed them and kill them, but it wasn't shown in these photos.


There is one photograph that I disagree with you about because the woman in it looks so upset to me and I was told on Facebook that she hadn't been identified. The Asian looking young woman with long black hair and a plaid scarf tied around her head and (IMO) unusual eye make-up, she look shook up and angry, like it is taking everything that she has not to start crying. Maybe I am reading too much into that photo, but she looks extremely upset to me.

norest4thewicked
12-24-2011, 12:34 AM
There is one photograph that I disagree with you about because the woman in it looks so upset to me and I was told on Facebook that she hadn't been identified. The Asian looking young woman with long black hair and a plaid scarf tied around her head and (IMO) unusual eye make-up, she look shook up and angry, like it is taking everything that she has not to start crying. Maybe I am reading too much into that photo, but she looks extremely upset to me.

The photo of the girl makes me think that she is either bored or disinterested. We know that Alcala raped some women and made them do things on camera that they might not have wanted to do. I think that the piercing eyes makes one think that she looks very intense. Maybe he said something to her that she didn't agree with. I just don't get the idea from looking into her face that she was extremely upset. But, that is only my opinion and we all see things differently. :)