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peeples
04-01-2011, 03:41 PM
Japan evacuees face long wait....

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/01/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T2

ens of thousands of people who evacuated an area around the stricken Fukushima Daiichi power plant may not be allowed home for months, a Japanese minister said Friday.

There is no end in sight for the nuclear crisis amid fresh concerns about alarming radiation levels in beef, seawater and groundwater
Thread #5

Thread #4

Thread #3

Thread #2

Thread #1

Quiche
04-01-2011, 04:25 PM
How in the world is this possible? Was the dog able to find water in the remains of the house? I don't think dogs or humans can go more than a few days without fresh water (and a dog wouldn't necessarily know not to drink sea water).

It looked in pretty good shape, too! Maybe puddles of rainwater?

Herding Cats
04-01-2011, 04:32 PM
It seems like it's been freaked out - see it ducking from the hands? And also, starving. Didn't even sniff first - just ate.

As for surviving, I'd say rainwater; there are lots of places rainwater could've been caught in that debris.

Most dogs won't drink saltwater, they don't like the taste...so it had to survive somehow. I hope this is a true story...and right now, I'm going to choose to think it is. A little light and hope in the gloominess that surrounds Japan right now.

Best-
Herding Cats

Nova
04-01-2011, 05:06 PM
It seems like it's been freaked out - see it ducking from the hands? And also, starving. Didn't even sniff first - just ate.

As for surviving, I'd say rainwater; there are lots of places rainwater could've been caught in that debris.

Most dogs won't drink saltwater, they don't like the taste...so it had to survive somehow. I hope this is a true story...and right now, I'm going to choose to think it is. A little light and hope in the gloominess that surrounds Japan right now.

Best-
Herding Cats

I don't think the story is a hoax. We have the Japanese sailors on video.

The only other possibility I can think of is that somehow the debris was washed out to sea (along with the dog) only recently and not at the time of the original tsunami.

But I think rainwater collecting in pools is the best explanation. Since it isn't hot there yet, the dog might have been able to survive on very little water.

(BTW I know that dogs aren't stupid and wouldn't normally drink saltwater. But with humans, a kind of madness sets in after a few days and people dying of thirst often start drinking seawater anyway, even though they know better. Since they are also mammals, I assume something similar would happen with dogs, particular since they can't know that saltwater only makes dehydration worse.)

Quiche
04-01-2011, 05:13 PM
Fukushima 'much bigger than Chernobyl', says Russian nuclear activist

Quote: "Chernobyl was level seven and it had only one reactor and lasted only two weeks. We have now three weeks (at Fukushima) and we have four reactors which we know are in very dangerous situations," she said.

Japan's nuclear safety agency has maintained its rating of the Fukushima accident at four, while a French watchdog has upgraded it to six.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/fukushima-much-bigger-than-chernobyl-says-russian-nuclear-activist/story-e6frf7jo-1226032387891

Quiche
04-01-2011, 05:44 PM
Quite an operation--

Intensive search for tsunami victims turns up 32 bodies

Quote: In the three-day search operation that will use dozens of ships and helicopters, about 18,000 SDF personnel and about 7,000 U.S. military personnel will be mobilized, with members of the Japanese police, the Japan Coast Guard and fire departments also taking part, according to the Defense Ministry.

The areas covered in the operation include shores that were largely submerged or remain under water and mouths of major rivers in Iwate, Miyagi and Fukushima prefectures.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82657.html

hockeymom
04-01-2011, 06:03 PM
Fukushima 'much bigger than Chernobyl', says Russian nuclear activist

Quote: "Chernobyl was level seven and it had only one reactor and lasted only two weeks. We have now three weeks (at Fukushima) and we have four reactors which we know are in very dangerous situations," she said.

Japan's nuclear safety agency has maintained its rating of the Fukushima accident at four, while a French watchdog has upgraded it to six.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/fukushima-much-bigger-than-chernobyl-says-russian-nuclear-activist/story-e6frf7jo-1226032387891

I don't think anyone here at WS thats been following this is surprised at this at all. Haven't we been saying this all along?

Quiche
04-01-2011, 06:41 PM
I don't think anyone here at WS thats been following this is surprised at this at all. Haven't we been saying this all along?

For some reason, this is the first I've seen the level 6 rating. I agree with that...

ScorpRising
04-01-2011, 07:41 PM
I'm going to stock up on powdered milk, iodine and iodine containing products this weekend.

If you would've told me two and a half weeks ago that I would make such a statement, I'd have told you you're insane...

Quiche
04-01-2011, 08:00 PM
Half-Life and Death: Radioactive Drinking Water Scare in Japan Subsides, but Questions Remain

Some radioactive contaminants could be filtered out or allowed to decay, whereas others would pose more serious long-term problems

Quote: Whether and how an isotope could and would be removed depends on which it is. Unlike drinking water contaminated with microbial pathogens such as Escherichia coli, giardia or cryptosporidium, water containing radioactive material cannot be made potable by boiling, bleach or exposure to ultraviolet light. Instead, isotopes must be removed using activated charcoal filtration, reverse osmosis or water softening, to name a few methods.

and

One difficulty with filtering out radioactive isotopes is that the filters and membranes would become radioactive waste that must then be disposed of carefully, says Rob Renner, executive director of the Water Research Foundation

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fukushima-water-fallout

Hey, that's some good news! More research is necessary... I wish I had soft water!

peeples
04-01-2011, 08:08 PM
Reverse Osmosis is a PITA!
We had to do that for some Discus fish we had and I don't even quite understood how it all worked, but we had cannisters in the basement and water holding tanks.. all kinds of stuff (it was my husbands thing not mine LOL)

peeples
04-01-2011, 08:09 PM
Oh and I'm eating my last ribeye for probably a very long time, right now....

Daisyjane
04-01-2011, 08:10 PM
Dailymotion - Japon : l'équipe de Greenpeace effectue des mesures de radioactivité autour de Fukushima - une vidéo News & Politics@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video@@AMEPARAM@@video
Translating from French:

Greenpeace sent a team of experts in radiation protection into the area of ​​the plant in Fukushima. January Vande Putte, and his team are measuring on average 35 km from the plant, outside evacuation zone. The team confirmed levels of radiation of ten micro Sievert per hour in the village of Iitate, 40km northwest of central Fukushima / Daiichi and 20 km beyond the official evacuation zone. These levels are high enough to require evacuation. From a health standpoint, it is not harmless to remain in this area, especially for those "at risk" as children and pregnant women, who could receive in a few days the maximum annual dose of radiation .

Verity
04-01-2011, 08:32 PM
Keep in min d when I say this, I'm just a regular poster. No real experience in anything...in fact, my degree is in criminal justice admin. So not a professional on any of this stuff.

In three sentences: In the attempt to avoid public panic, both the the Japanese and American leaders have done their countries a disservice if not caused direct harm. The Japanese authorities are talking out one side of their mouths to the people and the other side to their allies (Such as requesting 50,000 KI pills.). I think they know more about just how much of what has been released than they are telling us, and they already know that this has caused permanent damage to our food, water, commerce, genetics, and global economy. MOO.

As far as minimizing the effect on the food chain, I don't know. I think that a lot of the damage there has already been done. But protecting yourself...I would pay close attention to where the food you buy comes from and research it first. We already pump radiation in very small doses into some of our U.S. grown and raised foods, and those small amounts + these small amounts might equal some not so small amounts. Switching to powdered milk at least for a little while might not be a bad idea, and lowering radiation exposure from other sources might not be a bad idea, either. Use the stove instead of the microwave, set the cell phone on speaker and put it next to you instead of holding it to your head, waive the non-necessary medical procedures and step away from the gas pump when pumping. Just little stuff, that seems like the only thing we can do right now, is each alter our individual lifestyle in whatever ways we can that will help ourselves and our families.

BBM: Some excellent advice here, thank you! DH is using the "choose your poison" argument regarding powdered milk, saying he checked ingredients in the ones at food store and couldn't bring himself to buy all the chemicals. Any brand recommendations, or are they all the same pretty much?

Step away from gas pump and not using microwave are things I hadn't thought of and can easily reduce microwave. Toaster oven reheats just as well, sometimes better.

Onward and upward!

Quiche
04-01-2011, 09:16 PM
Pontoon to hold Japan nuke plant water

Excerpt:
THE operator of Japan's disaster-stricken nuclear power plant plans to use a huge steel floating structure to contain radioactive water it releases.

The pontoon-type structure which can hold a maximum of 18,000 tonnes of water will be handed over to Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) by its owner which has been using it as a floating park for anglers, officials said yesterday.

Called a "Mega-Float", it measures 136 metres long, 46 metres wide and three metres high and can hold up to 10,000 tonnes of water without sinking. It is owned by the Pacific coast city of Shimizu southwest of Tokyo.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/pontoon-to-hold-japan-nuke-plant-water/story-e6frf7jx-1226032363891

I guess this is a little better than letting it dump straight into the ocean... but, I kind of don't trust it. I hope they know what they're doing.

Quiche
04-01-2011, 09:23 PM
First clear pictures show the true devastation at the Fukushima nuclear plant as Japan flies unmanned drone over stricken reactor

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1372589/First-clear-pictures-true-devastation-Fukushima-nuclear-plant-Japan-flies-unmanned-drone-stricken-reactor.html#ixzz1IKBq8dZV

buffetoflies
04-01-2011, 09:26 PM
Japan's nuclear safety agency has maintained its rating of the Fukushima accident at four, while a French watchdog has upgraded it to six.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/fukushima-much-bigger-than-chernobyl-says-russian-nuclear-activist/story-e6frf7jo-1226032387891

Really, because Chernobyl only had 1 rector and Fukushima has 4 the scale should be out of 28, so really the score would be 24/28.

essies
04-01-2011, 09:58 PM
Oh, this is great!

Tsunami-surviving dog rescued after three weeks at sea
A dog believed to have survived the tsunami and then three weeks at sea was rescued by the Japanese Coast Guard in northern Japan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/japan-earthquake-and-tsunami-in/8422323/Tsunami-surviving-dog-rescued-after-three-weeks-at-sea.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiJjG2hEEtc

Verity
04-01-2011, 10:02 PM
This is the EPA's monitoring interactive map:
http://www.epa.gov/japan2011/rert/radnet-data-map.html

This is a site I check now and then-- I'm just watching for the warning levels of 100 CPM here:
http://radiationnetwork.com/

This site has a live stream of a Geiger counter in Santa Monica and daily averages:
http://www.enviroreporter.com/2011/03/enviroreporter-coms-radiation-station/


Where we are now?

We are at the point that radioactivity has circled the northern hemisphere. The disaster is ongoing and escalating-- heading toward meltdowns in three reactors. If the reactor cores hit the water table an enormous blast of steam will hit the atmosphere, and much more radiation than we've seen will be carried by the jetstream. JMO

Other than moving to the southern hemisphere, I am at the point of acceptance. I am not a survivalist, I am not going to tape myself into my home and never emerge. Our food and water is already radioactive. I am using iodine solution for my thyroid: a small circle on the abdomen will help keep the thyroid saturated so there's no room for the harmful radiation.

This link will keep you updated: http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/

I pray for, and mourn, the people of Japan. HTH

Thank you! All good suggestions. We can only hope the enormous blast of steam doesn't emerge.

essies
04-01-2011, 10:09 PM
Nuclear Fuel Pool Has NO WATER, RODS EXPOSED - Plutonium Could Become Volatile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6DZQzY_k2c

essies
04-01-2011, 10:17 PM
Translating from French:

Greenpeace sent a team of experts in radiation protection into the area of ​​the plant in Fukushima. January Vande Putte, and his team are measuring on average 35 km from the plant, outside evacuation zone. The team confirmed levels of radiation of ten micro Sievert per hour in the village of Iitate, 40km northwest of central Fukushima / Daiichi and 20 km beyond the official evacuation zone. These levels are high enough to require evacuation. From a health standpoint, it is not harmless to remain in this area, especially for those "at risk" as children and pregnant women, who could receive in a few days the maximum annual dose of radiation .

Video from Daisyjane's link now up on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3eBMiJKit0

Daisyjane
04-01-2011, 10:28 PM
Video from Daisyjane's link now up on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3eBMiJKit0

Thanks for obtaining & posting this; that link was giving me all kinds of probs. And here I thought I was such a big cheese for translating that French article!

Quiche
04-01-2011, 10:30 PM
Really, because Chernobyl only had 1 rector and Fukushima has 4 the scale should be out of 28, so really the score would be 24/28.

Yes. This method really drives home the seriousness. Thanks.

essies
04-01-2011, 10:44 PM
Blue Flash of Light Above Exploded Nuke Reactor - Nuclear Chain Reaction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyelESiPlsM

Quiche
04-01-2011, 10:56 PM
Is that "flash" the same as a neutron beam? I've been looking around, but I'm still a little unclear... but if so, there have been around 13 or so since this began. They're bad news. jmo

eta: a wiki link and quote--

Quote: Fission chain reaction

Fission chain reactions occur because of interactions between neutrons and fissile isotopes (such as 235U). The chain reaction requires both the release of neutrons from fissile isotopes undergoing nuclear fission and the subsequent absorption of some of these neutrons in fissile isotopes. When an atom undergoes nuclear fission, a few neutrons (the exact number depends on several factors) are ejected from the reaction. These free neutrons will then interact with the surrounding medium, and if more fissile fuel is present, some may be absorbed and cause more fissions. Thus, the cycle repeats to give a reaction that is self-sustaining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_chain_reaction

Quiche
04-01-2011, 11:15 PM
Japan Nuclear Crisis: Worker Speaks Out About Radiation Dangers

Quote: International nuclear experts believe that melted fuel in reactor No. 1 has caused a "localized criticality," which is a small, uncontrolled chain reaction that occasionally emits a burst of heat, radiation and a blue flash of light.

It is not a threat to the area at large, officials say, but could be deadly for workers.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/japan-nuclear-crisis-worker-speaks-radiation-dangers/story?id=13271759

Daisyjane
04-01-2011, 11:19 PM
Is that "flash" the same as a neutron beam? I've been looking around, but I'm still a little unclear... but if so, there have been around 13 or so since this began. They're bad news. jmo

eta: a wiki link and quote--

Quote: Fission chain reaction

Fission chain reactions occur because of interactions between neutrons and fissile isotopes (such as 235U). The chain reaction requires both the release of neutrons from fissile isotopes undergoing nuclear fission and the subsequent absorption of some of these neutrons in fissile isotopes. When an atom undergoes nuclear fission, a few neutrons (the exact number depends on several factors) are ejected from the reaction. These free neutrons will then interact with the surrounding medium, and if more fissile fuel is present, some may be absorbed and cause more fissions. Thus, the cycle repeats to give a reaction that is self-sustaining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_chain_reaction

This article may answer your question about the blue flash and neutron beams:
http://enenews.com/report-on-neutron-beams-has-a-reactor-at-fukushima-gone-critical

Quiche
04-01-2011, 11:22 PM
Update on Fukushima: Discussion of High Level Radiation Releases and the Previous "Worse Case Senario" Planned for by The Industry

Excerpt:
The IAEA, that’s the International Atomic Energy Agency, has found that twenty-five miles away from the reactor there’s been deposition of radioactive material to the tune of two million becquerels per square meter (2,000,000 Bq / Sq m). Now, what does that mean? A square meter is about three feet by three feet, a meter by a meter, and two million becquerels is two million disintegrations every second being deposited in roughly three feet by three feet. That’s well above what the IAEA would say you should evacuate if the levels are that high. So, there are places out well beyond where the Japanese are evacuating that should be evacuated based on the deposition of radioactive materials nearby.

To give you an example: at Chernobyl, the exclusion zone was five hundred thousand becquerels (500,000 Bq). This is four times higher than Chernobyl. Now, there are different isotopes, and some of these will decay away, and the Chernobyl ones are longer lived, but these are very serious concentrations of radioactivity being deposited on the ground from the radioactive steam coming out of the plant.

and

The next thing is the water. We’ve seen incredibly high concentrations in the radioactive water in trenches onsite. There are indications that the survey meters simply can’t read high enough to measure the amount of radiation coming off the water.

http://fairewinds.com/node/127

This is a good article. Essies has linked him a few times, worthwhile read/listen. imo

Quiche
04-01-2011, 11:28 PM
This article may answer your question about the blue flash and neutron beams:
http://enenews.com/report-on-neutron-beams-has-a-reactor-at-fukushima-gone-critical

They know darn well what's happening. I found some levity in the few comments that followed.

:cool:


eta: Induced radioactivity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_radioactivity

JustToSeeYouSmile
04-02-2011, 03:14 AM
This article is old, but following up here on US SAR efforts in Japan
http://www.komonews.com/news/national/118029989.html

Peliman
04-02-2011, 08:40 AM
Radioactive Water From Crippled Nuclear Plant Leaking Into Pacific, Japan Officials Say
ASSOCIATED PRESS

RIKUZENTAKATA, Japan Highly radioactive water spilled into the ocean off a tsunami-damaged nuclear power plant Saturday, as Japans prime minister surveyed the damage in a town gutted by the wave.

Saturdays leak was from a newly discovered crack in a maintenance pit on the edge of the Fukushima complex, Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency spokesman Hidehiko Nishiyama said.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/radioactive_water_leaking_into_sea_tshz2iVQJ3mrbe0 V1a5naO#ixzz1IMwGNI45

Daisyjane
04-02-2011, 09:11 AM
Radioactive Water From Crippled Nuclear Plant Leaking Into Pacific, Japan Officials Say
ASSOCIATED PRESS

RIKUZENTAKATA, Japan Highly radioactive water spilled into the ocean off a tsunami-damaged nuclear power plant Saturday, as Japans prime minister surveyed the damage in a town gutted by the wave.

Saturdays leak was from a newly discovered crack in a maintenance pit on the edge of the Fukushima complex, Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency spokesman Hidehiko Nishiyama said.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/radioactive_water_leaking_into_sea_tshz2iVQJ3mrbe0 V1a5naO#ixzz1IMwGNI45

A bit of additional info here (that crack is a foot wide!)

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/04/02/Crack-found-at-Japanese-nuclear-site/UPI-26441301745668/

TOKYO, April 2 (UPI) -- A foot-wide crack in a wall at an earthquake-damaged nuclear plant in Fukushima was leaking radioactive water into the sea, Japanese officials said Saturday. Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman for the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, told a news conference in Tokyo the crack was discovered in a pit where electrical cables converge, the Kyodo news agency reported. He said radioactive water was flowing from the reactor into the sea and workers were preparing to seal the crack with concrete to stop the flow of radioactive water into the Pacific Ocean.Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/04/02/Crack-found-at-Japanese-nuclear-site/UPI-26441301745668/#ixzz1IN2lN9d3

hockeymom
04-02-2011, 09:34 AM
On O'Reilly last night,he had an MD who is very familiar with radiation. I wish I could find a transcript. The guy was kinda nerdy and not comfortable on TV. In a nutshell,hesaid as of today,we don't have to worry about radiation levels here in the States,but if this continues much longer,it will be a big problem. He blasted the Japanese government for incompetance.
I'm not happy about his prognosis,obviously,but for once someone didn't say,we have nothing to worry about and told the truth.
This is getting more serious by the minute.

essies
04-02-2011, 10:03 AM
"How Can You Withhold This Type Of Information From The Public!" :maddening:
April 01, 2011 CNN-Anderson Cooper

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5a0vbHxrwo
TEPCO Backtracking on numbers - But Says They Don't Know What The Numbers Are!!!:maddening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWt3Wq_SgKw

tehcloser
04-02-2011, 10:23 AM
SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (IRN) - Radiation believed to be from the nuclear plant disaster in Japan has been detected in Illinois.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/03/31/radioactive-material-found-in-illinois/


"The radioactive iodine similar to what was released in Japan was found in a grass clipping in the Joliet area by the Radiological Assessment Field Team, ....."

hockeymom
04-02-2011, 10:30 AM
So if they do entombed this thing,it sounds like it will take months for them to do it. Will it stop the leak that is pouring into the soil and the Pacific?
I have to say,at least this is starting to get more coverage again.I think the world community is relizing what a global catastophe this is,despite Tepco's best effort to hid it.

Quiche
04-02-2011, 10:44 AM
Radioactive Water From Crippled Nuclear Plant Leaking Into Pacific, Japan Officials Say
ASSOCIATED PRESS

RIKUZENTAKATA, Japan — Highly radioactive water spilled into the ocean off a tsunami-damaged nuclear power plant Saturday, as Japan’s prime minister surveyed the damage in a town gutted by the wave.

Saturday’s leak was from a newly discovered crack in a maintenance pit on the edge of the Fukushima complex, Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency spokesman Hidehiko Nishiyama said.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/radioactive_water_leaking_into_sea_tshz2iVQJ3mrbe0 V1a5naO#ixzz1IMwGNI45

From Peli's link-- I just had to shake my head at this...

Quote: The plant has run out of the nylon protective booties that workers put over their shoes. Earlier, TEPCO acknowledged that the tsunami had destroyed many of the gauges used to measure radiation, forcing workers to share. More gauges have since arrived at the site.

“We only put something like plastic garbage bags you can buy at a convenience store and sealed them with masking tape,” said the worker, who spoke to the national Mainichi newspaper. Such interviews have been exceedingly rare and always anonymous.

Peliman
04-02-2011, 10:59 AM
So if they do entombed this thing,it sounds like it will take months for them to do it. Will it stop the leak that is pouring into the soil and the Pacific?
I have to say,at least this is starting to get more coverage again.I think the world community is relizing what a global catastophe this is,despite Tepco's best effort to hid it.

Sounds to me like they would just be happy to patch the leak for now. Even though the concrete pumper is being shipped it will take a short while before use because they will need a concrete mixer/plant nearby to provide the amount of concrete needed to fill a reactor, tunnels ect.

I'm not meaning normal concrete but a mix of some type, there could be problems with heat from the uncooled rods cracking normal concrete. They also need to get the water out of the tunnels before a pour can take place.

Lots to overcome before a big pour can actually take place. I think they can only hope to patch the crack leading to the ocean first.

Quiche
04-02-2011, 11:10 AM
Status report: Reactor-by-reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi plant

At #1: Workers are preparing to inject nitrogen into the No. 1 reactor (as well as at least two others) in an order to prevent another explosion caused by a buildup of hydrogen...

Much much more at link

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/02/japan.nuclear.status/


eta: It's strange the way they talk as if the whole plant isn't scrapped forever... I don't get that. mo

Peliman
04-02-2011, 11:15 AM
Status report: Reactor-by-reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi plant

At #1: Workers are preparing to inject nitrogen into the No. 1 reactor (as well as at least two others) in an order to prevent another explosion caused by a buildup of hydrogen...

Much much more at link

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/02/japan.nuclear.status/


eta: It's strange the way they talk as if the whole plant isn't scrapped forever... I don't get that. mo

I'm going to send them a bill if nitrogen works... LOL

Quiche
04-02-2011, 11:32 AM
Japan nuclear crisis: entire town nearest to stricken plant is moved to new 'temporary' quarters
Hundreds of evacuees from Futuba, the town nearest to Japan's Fukushima nuclear reactor, have been moved again - to a school which may be home for months or years.

Excerpt:
Last week, its evacuated residents were all gathered together from their temporary shelter and moved, to what may be the closest place they can call home for some time: an abandoned high school in Kazo, Saitama prefecture, north of Tokyo.

Within its concrete confines, officials are now painstakingly setting about recreating Futaba's original community. The mayor has relocated his municipal office into the headteacher's study, while residents are grouped together in classrooms according to the geography of the town.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8423303/Japan-nuclear-crisis-entire-town-nearest-to-stricken-plant-is-moved-to-new-temporary-quarters.html


There is much sweetness and hope in this article. jmo

essies
04-02-2011, 12:09 PM
SRS pump will head to Japan
Thursday, March 31, 2011
snip-
The world's largest concrete pump, deployed at the construction site of the U.S. government's $4.86 billion mixed oxide fuel plant at Savannah River Site, is being moved to Japan in a series of emergency measures to help stabilize the Fukushima reactors
"Our understanding is, they are preparing to go to next phase and it will require a lot of concrete," Ashmore said, noting that the 70-meter pump can move 210 cubic yards of concrete per hour.

Ashmore said officials have already notified Shaw AREVA MOX Services, which is building the MOX plant for the U.S. Department of Energy's National Nuclear Security Administration, that the pump was being moved and will not be returned because it will become contaminated by radiation.

"It will be too hot to come back," Ashmore said.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/metro/2011-03-31/srs-pump-will-head-japan?v=1301653174

buffetoflies
04-02-2011, 12:21 PM
So if they do entombed this thing,it sounds like it will take months for them to do it. Will it stop the leak that is pouring into the soil and the Pacific?


Most likely not. Underneath Japan isn't a solid mass of rock. There are vent (holes the sea can flow into) and the cores are melting down through the ground. If it melts into one of the holes, it probably won't be able to be filled, and the core will flow into the ocean. This isn't a good thing though, because the intense heat of the core can cause an explosion if it mixes with the water. That's how I understood what I read at ATS anyway. There are some very smart people there. The 480+ thread there really isn't conspiracy theory, it is news and people speculation on what everything could mean.

I also read in that thread a theory on why the evacuation area wasn't extended. It's a horrible reason: because the Nissan (car) assembly plant is right outside of it, and if it were to be extended that whole plant would no longer be able to operate... which is gay because it's so close it wouldn't be able to operate anyway b/c the parts would be forever saturated w/ radiation, and any humans that work there will probably end up dying in a few hours. WTF TEPCO. HUMAN LIFE IS FAR MORE VALUABLE.

Also, I don't think that concrete pumper is going to do any good. If you look at pictures of reactor 3's outer house over as time passes it looks like it getting worse... kind of like it melting. So the concrete would be entombing it would just melt around it. The temperature is 5,000 degrees at the core. FIVE THOUSAND degrees. I start getting witching around 85 degrees.

Where's the US MOX plant going to to be located? Not near a earthquake/hurricane zone I hope!

Nice. It's in SC where there is a fault line. At least I live west of it so the PJS can blow it away from me.

Ugh. Guess what?
There are only 2 plants in the US that have not received an Enforcement Action from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Happily for me, I am in a 50 mile radius of 1 of them. The other is in VA.

tehcloser
04-02-2011, 12:32 PM
TEPCO has begun pouring concrete into the pit to stop the leak, he said.
Public broadcaster NHK said late on Saturday that water was preventing the concrete from hardening and the pit was still leaking.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/japan-pm-visit-tsunami-devastated-village-enters-nuke-20110401-200148-890.html

essies
04-02-2011, 01:03 PM
April 01, 2011 MSNBC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-JFyT_P5j0

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 01:36 PM
So if they do entombed this thing,it sounds like it will take months for them to do it. Will it stop the leak that is pouring into the soil and the Pacific?
I have to say,at least this is starting to get more coverage again.I think the world community is relizing what a global catastophe this is,despite Tepco's best effort to hid it.

The way I understand it (from what they did with Chernobyl) is it will stop it from pouring into the air and the water, but not so much the soil. I guess it depends on what the reactors sit on top of, whether or not the ground will be protected, but I doubt it.

sorrell skye
04-02-2011, 02:28 PM
April 6 Fukushima forecast shows Northwest US under threat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wJninXiYIM&feature=player_detailpage


Fukushima Forecast: Radioactive particles to be concentrated over Midwest on April 1, 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW3JMPsQb0w&feature=player_detailpage

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 02:51 PM
April 6 Fukushima forecast shows Northwest US under threat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wJninXiYIM&feature=player_detailpage


Fukushima Forecast: Radioactive particles to be concentrated over Midwest on April 1, 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW3JMPsQb0w&feature=player_detailpage

It's raining here in MidMichigan...and I sent my son out for a bus ride with his dad to get him out of the house. I refuse to let myself panic over any of this, but there is a part of me that is screaming at me that I just sent my three year old out into radioactive rain.

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 02:58 PM
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Saturday that a cracked storage pit at the Fukushima No. 1 power plant was the source of a radioactive water leak contaminating the ocean and that it is attempting to fill it with concrete.



According to the utility and the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, the square, concrete-covered pit is situated near an intake used to pump seawater into reactor No. 2.

Although the pit is small, it contains highly contaminated water with a radioactivity exceeding 1,000 millisieverts per hour that is leaking into the ocean from a 20-cm crack, Tepco said.

The pit, which is 1.2 meters x 1.9 meters and 2 meters deep, is usually used to store cables. But it is also connected directly to the reactor building through a cable trench, raising the possibility that the source of the contaminated water is the reactor itself, a NISA official said.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110403a1.html

There's a lovely picture of the pit and the crack and a suited worker standing right next it.

memeanabby
04-02-2011, 03:02 PM
[QUOTE=not_my_kids;6283709]It's raining here in MidMichigan...and I sent [B]my son out for a bus ride with his dad to get him out of the house. I refuse to let myself panic over any of this, but there is a part of me that is screaming at me that I just sent my three year old out into radioactive rain

I thought and felt the same yesterday when my husband took our 2 1/2year old grandaughter out for a walk after it rained all day.I actually felt a sick pang in my stomach.
Thanks to all who have kept us informed!

crystalgenie
04-02-2011, 03:26 PM
Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Reinhold Niebuhr

I am not an overly relgious person but I think this prayer always applies.

I am not going to keep my ten year old inside unless directed to do so.

I am not going to unnecessarily freak her out.

I am not going to give my child potassium or KI unless directed by a doctor to do so.

I am going to live each day not in a panic of what might, what could, or what may.

The one thing I am going to do is to donate to Japan and continue to pray for them. I am not the one trapped on an island with 4 damaged nuclear reactors.

I am returning to sitting on my hands...

Nova
04-02-2011, 03:31 PM
...I also read in that thread a theory on why the evacuation area wasn't extended. It's a horrible reason: because the Nissan (car) assembly plant is right outside of it, and if it were to be extended that whole plant would no longer be able to operate... which is gay because it's so close it wouldn't be able to operate anyway b/c the parts would be forever saturated w/ radiation, and any humans that work there will probably end up dying in a few hours. WTF TEPCO. HUMAN LIFE IS FAR MORE VALUABLE....

Welcome to Websleuths, buffetoflies!

BBM: One request: would you please not use the word "gay" to mean bad or bogus?

I'm sure you meant no harm, but it's incredibly offensive, especially to those of us who are gay in the more common usage of the word.

hockeymom
04-02-2011, 03:37 PM
Most likely not. Underneath Japan isn't a solid mass of rock. There are vent (holes the sea can flow into) and the cores are melting down through the ground. If it melts into one of the holes, it probably won't be able to be filled, and the core will flow into the ocean. This isn't a good thing though, because the intense heat of the core can cause an explosion if it mixes with the water. That's how I understood what I read at ATS anyway. There are some very smart people there. The 480+ thread there really isn't conspiracy theory, it is news and people speculation on what everything could mean.

I also read in that thread a theory on why the evacuation area wasn't extended. It's a horrible reason: because the Nissan (car) assembly plant is right outside of it, and if it were to be extended that whole plant would no longer be able to operate... which is gay because it's so close it wouldn't be able to operate anyway b/c the parts would be forever saturated w/ radiation, and any humans that work there will probably end up dying in a few hours. WTF TEPCO. HUMAN LIFE IS FAR MORE VALUABLE.

Also, I don't think that concrete pumper is going to do any good. If you look at pictures of reactor 3's outer house over as time passes it looks like it getting worse... kind of like it melting. So the concrete would be entombing it would just melt around it. The temperature is 5,000 degrees at the core. FIVE THOUSAND degrees. I start getting witching around 85 degrees.

Where's the US MOX plant going to to be located? Not near a earthquake/hurricane zone I hope!

Nice. It's in SC where there is a fault line. At least I live west of it so the PJS can blow it away from me.

Ugh. Guess what?
There are only 2 plants in the US that have not received an Enforcement Action from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Happily for me, I am in a 50 mile radius of 1 of them. The other is in VA.

As for Nissan,this does not surprise me. I was emailed a huge newsletter today in regard to the world economy. A big chunk of it dealt with the crisis and Japan,and how the government and the corporations have dealt with it. It says in the article that after WW2,Japan was so driven to recover,they became an,"economy" and ceased being a "nation". It cited statistics on birthrate and amount of unmarried women,etc.. but I thought this was interesting, Karoshi,which is basically working ones self to death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi
I don't know much about individuals in Japan,but it certainly sounds like corporations believe $$$ is far more important than human life.

I wish I could find a way to copy this newsletter as it is very interesting,and basically says Japan is "dieing", and will never fully recover, unless they return to a nation,not an economy. This guy feels they could abe taken over by China.

I find it ironic that what led Japan into WW2,was their strong nationalism,so in going the complete opposite instead of somewhere in the middle,they may have destroyed them selves.

Nova
04-02-2011, 03:50 PM
As for Nissan,this does not surprise me....

hm, your link sends me to a Wiki page that seems to have nothing to do with Japan. Am I not reading it correctly?

FWIW, as I understand Japanese culture, it has long tended to emphasize the well-being of the group over the individual. (This is also true of China and many other Asian countries. It is partly how they are able to support such large populations.) When the Japanese turned to capitalism beginning in the 1860s, it was only natural that they tended to be very loyal to corporations.

Of course corporations aim to make money, so the end result is much the same. But I don't believe the Japanese think of it as valuing money over people, but of the group over the individual.

sorrell skye
04-02-2011, 04:29 PM
It's raining here in MidMichigan...and I sent my son out for a bus ride with his dad to get him out of the house. I refuse to let myself panic over any of this, but there is a part of me that is screaming at me that I just sent my three year old out into radioactive rain.

I'm sorry NMK - I didn't mean to cause you undue stress by posting the radiation forecast videos. (((hugs)))

I have a precious 5 month old granddaughter - and I'm trying not to panic, as well.

I've been avoiding following the situation for a couple of days, hoping that when I check in, I'll read some good news. Unfortunately, I've discovered that the situation has only gotten much worse. :(

Quiche
04-02-2011, 04:31 PM
Japan's nuclear clean-up
Jimmy Carter and Fukushima

Regarding the workers at Fukushima-- Quote: The fear and danger is beyond comprehension for most people, and in particular the political leaders who must order men in to danger. But interestingly, it is not unfamiliar to former American president Jimmy Carter. Nearly half a century ago, as a young naval officer, he led a 23-man team to dismantle a reactor that, like Fukushima, had partially melted down.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2011/04/japans_nuclear_clean-up

Interesting article-- I didn't know this about J. Carter (I didn't read the book). It's heartening to know he's lived such a long a full life.

Daisyjane
04-02-2011, 04:33 PM
http://enenews.com/fukushima-forecast-radioactive-particles-concentrated-northwest-april-6-video

From the article accompanying the map: "Note the radiation cloud is the same blue color in the Pacific Northwest as it is just off the coast of Japan, indicating similar concentrations."

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 04:36 PM
I'm sorry NMK - I didn't mean to cause you undue stress by posting the radiation forecast videos. (((hugs)))

I have a precious 5 month old granddaughter - and I'm trying not to panic, as well.

I've been avoiding following the situation for a couple of days, hoping that when I check in, I'll read some good news. Unfortunately, I've discovered that the situation has only gotten much worse. :(


Oh don't feel bad, I would have seen it eventually myself, and I know it's out there, it's still scary to see it. But I guess it's a part of our lives now.

Daisyjane
04-02-2011, 04:43 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/02/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html

Tokyo (CNN) -- A first attempt to plug a cracked concrete shaft that is leaking highly radioactive water into the ocean off Japan failed Saturday, so officials are now exploring alternatives, said spokesmen for Tokyo Electric Power Co., the plant's owner. Workers had been trying to fill the shaft with fresh concrete, but that did not change the amount of water coming out of the crack, the spokesmen said at a news conference that ran late into the night Saturday. Their Plan B is to use polymers to stop the leak, the spokesmen said. A Tokyo Electric expert will visit the site Sunday morning and decide what polymer to use before the work begins. Workers will then break the shaft's ceiling and insert the polymer in a different spot from where they tried to place the concrete, they said. More at link above

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 04:52 PM
I'm having a hard time seeing any kind of positive outcome even being possible. Japan will essentially be a third world company, and the entire world will be living with the effects for quite some time. I don't even want to consider the global economy right now.

Trino
04-02-2011, 04:57 PM
I'm having a hard time seeing any kind of positive outcome even being possible. Japan will essentially be a third world company, and the entire world will be living with the effects for quite some time. I don't even want to consider the global economy right now.

I don't believe Japan will become a third world country. Hard hit, yes, but Tokyo is still functioning, as are other parts of Japan.

Analogy... If our west coast had the same problems, would we say we would be a third world country?

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 05:00 PM
I don't believe Japan will become a third world country. Hard hit, yes, but Tokyo is still functioning, as are other parts of Japan.

Analogy... If our west coast had the same problems, would we say we would be a third world country?

If the West Coast were having these particular problems, in the same magnitude and running for the same length of time without correction, yes, i think the risk would be there for the US to become a third world country, as well.

Quiche
04-02-2011, 05:05 PM
Problem is, Japan is geographically small and dependent on imports-- as long as there is a port that stays "clean" enough to do business with other countries, I think they'll adapt. But if it all gets dirty, global commerce/trade will abandon them. jmo

Quiche
04-02-2011, 05:15 PM
If the West Coast were having these particular problems, in the same magnitude and running for the same length of time without correction, yes, i think the risk would be there for the US to become a third world country, as well.

Shooot, we'd redefine 1st World before we'd accept 3rd world status! LOL We are Americans, after all!! :innocent:


eta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_second_third_worlds_map.svg

ThoughtFox
04-02-2011, 05:42 PM
I don't believe Japan will become a third world country. Hard hit, yes, but Tokyo is still functioning, as are other parts of Japan.

Analogy... If our west coast had the same problems, would we say we would be a third world country?

But the reality is that the size of the country won't allow anyone to move too far from the disaster. And what about their fishing industry? I saw pictures on TV of one ruined boat after another miles inland and piled up like children's toys.

I don't really think Japan will become a third world country, but there's no doubt the people there are in for many hardships in their daily lives, from where they can travel to what they can eat/drink. Their economy has to suffer long term effects, not to mention the loss of tourism.

hockeymom
04-02-2011, 06:01 PM
hm, your link sends me to a Wiki page that seems to have nothing to do with Japan. Am I not reading it correctly?

FWIW, as I understand Japanese culture, it has long tended to emphasize the well-being of the group over the individual. (This is also true of China and many other Asian countries. It is partly how they are able to support such large populations.) When the Japanese turned to capitalism beginning in the 1860s, it was only natural that they tended to be very loyal to corporations.

Of course corporations aim to make money, so the end result is much the same. But I don't believe the Japanese think of it as valuing money over people, but of the group over the individual.

Hi Nova,my link should lead you to a page that discusses something called Karoshi,or death by overwork. I find through this whole experience, I'm learning alot about the Japanese culture. I tend to read novels and books pre WW2 and during WW2,but not much recent history.

Nova
04-02-2011, 06:17 PM
Hi Nova,my link should lead you to a page that discusses something called Karoshi,or death by overwork. I find through this whole experience, I'm learning alot about the Japanese culture. I tend to read novels and books pre WW2 and during WW2,but not much recent history.

hm, you might want to check out this book by Ruth Benedict:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chrysanthemum_and_the_Sword



It isn't recent; it was written in 1946. But it remains a seminal work on Japanese culture and thought even though more than a half-century has passed. (It was assigned to me in grad school as late as the mid-1990s.) For one thing, it deals mostly with the historical evolution of Japanese philosophies and that history hasn't changed just because five-and-a-half decades have passed.

My memory is that it is very readable for a non-fiction book. (Not that there's anything you can't read; my point is that reading the book wasn't a chore.) Of the relatively few (several hundred, but I gave away more than 2,000) books I have kept from college, it is one of them.

hockeymom
04-02-2011, 07:06 PM
I just saw that Shep Smith has a special on Fox tonight at 11 est. Its about how Japan is doing currently from,earthquake,tsunami and nuclear crisis.

ScorpRising
04-02-2011, 07:44 PM
Just found this while looking for info on iodine for the babu. I was able to find 1% iodine today... that was it and I need to do more research before buying anything.

This makes me :sick:. I hope they know what they're talking about, but I doubt it...

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110324004960.htm

In light of a recent warning that radioactive iodine exceeding the safety limit for infants was detected in Tokyo's tap water, experts said the level was not harmful for babies for the time being, and that babies could be bathed or have their hair washed in it.

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 07:55 PM
Just found this while looking for info on iodine for the babu. I was able to find 1% iodine today... that was it and I need to do more research before buying anything.

This makes me :sick:. I hope they know what they're talking about, but I doubt it...

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110324004960.htm

In light of a recent warning that radioactive iodine exceeding the safety limit for infants was detected in Tokyo's tap water, experts said the level was not harmful for babies for the time being, and that babies could be bathed or have their hair washed in it.

And the kids in Belarus could play in the rain puddles, and the milk was safe to drink, and remember, those cabbage grown only a few miles from the Japan reactors are safe to eat, as long as you wash them well and throw away the outer leaves...
I wonder what they mean by "the time being"? They won't get sick today, they might not get sick for years and by that time we can claim it's just coincidence?
Grrrr. I think it's becoming more apparent that I just don't trust many of the leaders here or there right now.

buffetoflies
04-02-2011, 09:06 PM
Welcome to Websleuths, buffetoflies!

BBM: One request: would you please not use the word "gay" to mean bad or bogus?

I'm sure you meant no harm, but it's incredibly offensive, especially to those of us who are gay in the more common usage of the word.

Sorry. I'll supervise my fingers closely for a few days. I like gays. Ya'll are so much more open minded.

On topic, it's supposed to rain/sleet/snow here tomorrow. I love eating snow, but I passed the last time it snowed, and I'll be passing from now on.
If I were flying to Japan and a farmer there offered me their cabbage, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to turn them down. I feel so badly for them.

peeples
04-02-2011, 09:26 PM
I'm sitting here watching Meteor on the Scify channel and one of them just hit a nuclear power plant and all i could do was groan and wonder what if....
Wonder if they are set up with protections against huge falling meteors...LOL!

Quiche
04-02-2011, 09:35 PM
Embattled TEPCO now facing a harsh public backlash

Quote: Some members of the public are expressing their frustrations with Tokyo Electric Power Co. and its employees for the concerns arising from the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant and rolling blackouts.

Because the initial complaints have escalated to threats and harassment, TEPCO has taken measures to protect the safety of its employees.

One measure being taken is to cover signs to company dormitories for TEPCO employees.

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201104020226.html

Quiche
04-02-2011, 09:43 PM
After Japan disaster, disposing of waste creates dilemmas

Quote: After the quake and tsunami, Japan faces legal, financial, logistical, environmental and ethical questions on dealing with debris — from ships and smashed cars to waterlogged heirlooms and soiled family photos.

and

In the best of times, one man's trash is another man's treasure. But in the wake of Japan's March 11 earthquake and tsunami, the nation is facing complex legal, financial, logistical, environmental and ethical questions over just how to deal with at least 80 million tons of debris — from 300-ton ships and smashed cars to waterlogged heirlooms and soiled family photos.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-japan-trash-20110403,0,2076542.story?page=1&track=rss

Potential worries cited are possible asbestos when the debris dries out, and fire. Also stated that they were going to throw sea life back into the ocean. Imo, that's another avenue of radioactivity.

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 09:45 PM
Radioactive caesium and iodine have been found in 33 of 49 vegetables grown in Fukushima, but the levels were below the lawful limit. It was possible, officials said, that the spread of radioactive substances from the plant was decreasing.

Caesium was found in five varieties of seafood off the coast of the neighbouring Ibaraki Prefecture, but again, the levels were below the legal limit, the officials said.
http://en.trend.az/regions/world/ocountries/1854960.html

Go ahead, ask me if I believe them. :)

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 09:46 PM
That slightly radioactive milk found in Spokane could have come from anywhere in the state or northern Idaho.

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/default/article/Radioactive-milk-could-have-come-from-across-state-1318492.php#ixzz1IQrq3ZZb

not_my_kids
04-02-2011, 09:47 PM
For a look at just how long radioactivity can hang around, consider Germany's wild boars.
A quarter century after the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in the Soviet Union carried a cloud of radiation across Europe, these animals are radioactive enough that people are urged not to eat them. And the mushrooms the pigs dine on aren't fit for consumption either.
Germany's experience shows what could await Japan — if the problems at the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant get any worse.


Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Germany-s-radioactive-boars-a-legacy-of-Chernobyl-1317894.php#ixzz1IQs8SyEu

Interesting article all the way through...I love wild animals, and the only good that I see from this is although they will have birth defects and cancer risks, at least they won't be hunted.

Kat
04-02-2011, 09:49 PM
Thank you everyone for keeping this thread up to date with the latest info. I haven't posted but I am reading it every time I sign onto WS. :)

Off topic we are on the verge of another outbreak of Dengue fever here so I'm keeping my eye out on that too LOL. Lordy be.

Daisyjane
04-02-2011, 10:43 PM
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/japan_nuclear_crisis/

NEWS ADVISORY: 2 missing Fukushima nuke plant workers found dead on site: TEPCO (11:39)

Quiche
04-02-2011, 10:56 PM
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/japan_nuclear_crisis/

NEWS ADVISORY: 2 missing Fukushima nuke plant workers found dead on site: TEPCO (11:39)

Oh my, they've been missing since the first blasts, there's not much they can do for them. :cool:

essies
04-03-2011, 01:03 AM
What Is Japan's Nuclear Worst Case Scenario?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2AtUzaFLbs

Verity
04-03-2011, 03:47 AM
Apologies if this Chris Martenson newsletter has already been posted, but quick search didn't bring results. This is a very informative and helpful analysis with new photos, excellent comments, additional links, video, PDfs. Good read.

EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: Latest Satellite Imagery From Fukushima Tells Sobering Tale
http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/breaking-latest-satellite-imagery-fukushima/55711?utm_source=newsletter_2011-04-02&utm_medium=email_newsletter&utm_content=node_teaser_55711&utm_campaign=weekly_newsletter_12

Here are a few snippets I found interesting:

Comment clarifying difference between "radiation" and "radioactivity", which writer says is being mixed up in the mainstream media reports:
Radiation would be alpha and beta particles, and gamma waves. These are dangerous to the 'Fukushima 50' or others exposed to them, but not to the world at large. The serious health threat here is radioactive materials escaping (isotopes of iodine, cesium, etc). Those materials, carried in wind currents and in earth and sea, get ingested by living things (e.g. humans and fish and asparagus), and accumulate, and can then be ingested by other living things which eat them (think: food web).

Here's the key point which you will not have grasped from reading the mainstream media: the danger lies with these 'internal emitters' - that is, isotopes which are ingested (breathed in or eaten). That is what will cause cancers worldwide. That is what gives this crisis global scope. NOT radiation (alpha, beta, gamma) emanating from the plant.

So from the standpoint of global public health (and remember: scientists insist that residue from Chernobyl continues to this day to cause new cases of thyroid cancer, years after the isotopes themselves have degraded to harmlessness), the statement should have read:

"Radioactivity [or radioisotopes] will continue to escape from the complex into the environment"

With this understanding, it is worth noting that such isotopes have in fact already been detected on both the east and west coasts of America, so we can safely assume that if they've reached the heartland by now or will very soon. The only effective 'defense' I know of - and a very partial, limited one at that - is to increase uptake of iodine via kelp or supplement of some form. At least, this may protect from iodine-131, which tends to lodge in the thyroid and leads to thyroid cancer years later. As the wikipedia page on I-131 puts it:


"Much smaller incidental doses of iodine-131 than are used in medical treatment, are thought to be the major cause of increased thyroid cancers after accidental nuclear contamination. These cancers happen from residual tissue radiation damage caused by the I-131, and usually appear years after exposure, long after the I-131 has decayed."

Link to Radiation Dosage Chart (and some other ones there on different topics I found interesting): http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/radiation-dosage-chart/

SOS from mayor of Japanese City:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70ZHQ--cK40

dsntslp
04-03-2011, 04:11 AM
Wow, how very sad Verity. Thanks for that though.

Seems they aren't getting info or help from their government. How hard it must be for him to do that video and admit his government has failed his city while begging for help from the rest of the world. How horrible things must be for the 20 thousand people who stayed while 50 thousand evacuated.

At least after hurricanes here we can go outside and begin cleaning up even if we have no power for weeks. I know that is no comparison to what they are going through but the extent of my personal disaster experience is from many hurricanes. We lost a new garden one year, over 100 tomato plants in just one section but at least we could replant. 47,000 in damages to our home. The roof almost' came off and FEMA determined the whole thing needed replaced including the plywood. Pool enclosure in the pool, not replacing it covered my deductible. Geez, that's all so trivial now in comparison. Frances and Jeanne hit hard here just 3 weeks apart in 2004.

How very sad. My heart hurts for them...

Prayers, many prayers for them.

hollyblue
04-03-2011, 08:03 AM
Wow, how very sad Verity. Thanks for that though.

Seems they aren't getting info or help from their government. How hard it must be for him to do that video and admit his government has failed his city while begging for help from the rest of the world. How horrible things must be for the 20 thousand people who stayed while 50 thousand evacuated.

At least after hurricanes here we can go outside and begin cleaning up even if we have no power for weeks. I know that is no comparison to what they are going through but the extent of my personal disaster experience is from many hurricanes. We lost a new garden one year, over 100 tomato plants in just one section but at least we could replant. 47,000 in damages to our home. The roof almost' came off and FEMA determined the whole thing needed replaced including the plywood. Pool enclosure in the pool, not replacing it covered my deductible. Geez, that's all so trivial now in comparison. Frances and Jeanne hit hard here just 3 weeks apart in 2004.

How very sad. My heart hurts for them...

Prayers, many prayers for them.

OT, but, what the hello do you do with 100 tomato plants? :)

dsntslp
04-03-2011, 08:34 AM
LOL, Hollyblue, I home can them in glass canning jars. I love it! I have a home pressure canner I can put up to 14 quart jars in at a time. I can even can meats! It all started because of the 2004 storms. We lost the meat from two freezers, we didn't have a generator back then. When they were over I wanted to figure out how to can the meats from two freezers so that I did not have to run both on the 5500W portable generator. I had to change from electric stove to gas though, I kept burning out electric elements due to the weight of the filled canner, lol! Now when we get a hurricane warning I start canning everything, ha! Preservation! :)

WAY OT but...You don't need a pressure canner for tomatoes though, just add a tsp of lemon juice to each quart jar to increase acidity as tomatoes are acidic anyway, then "water bath" by boiling them in the jars!

hollyblue
04-03-2011, 08:36 AM
Sorry it took me so long to get back with info about demineralization, but there just isn't much out there...that I can find. Not very promising. How do you reverse the making of chaos...literally? Anyway, this is what I found, and the last link is from the CDC for those questioning fears of contaminaton.



In the alternative demineralization process, dissolved radioactive substances are extracted by passing through an ion- exchange resin. The evaporator residues and spent resins contain the removed radioactive material and are disposed of in a safe manner. The choice between evaporation and demineralization depends on circumstances and may vary from one plant to another.

http://www.tutorvista.com/physics/nuclear-energy-waste-disposal




From Wikipedia:
Ion-exchange in metal separation
Ion-exchange processes are used to separate and purify metals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal), including separating uranium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium) from plutonium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium) and other actinides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actinide), including thorium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium); and lanthanum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthanum), neodymium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium), ytterbium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ytterbium), samarium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarium), lutetium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutetium), from each other and the other lanthanides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthanide). There are two series of rare earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth) metals, the lanthanides and the actinides. Members of each family have very similar chemical and physical properties. Ion-exchange was for many years the only practical way to separate the rare earths in large quantities. This application was developed in the 1940's by Frank Spedding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Spedding). Subsequently, solvent extraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvent_extraction) has mostly supplanted use of ion exchange resins except for the highest purity products.
A very important case is the PUREX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PUREX) process (plutonium-uranium extraction process) which is used to separate the plutonium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium) and the uranium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium) from the spent fuel products from a nuclear reactor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor), and to be able to dispose of the waste products. Then, the plutonium and uranium are available for making nuclear-energy materials, such as new reactor fuel and nuclear weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon).
The ion-exchange process is also used to separate other sets of very similar chemical elements, such as zirconium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zirconium) and hafnium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafnium), which incidentally is also very important for the nuclear industry. Zirconium is practically transparent to free neutrons, used in building reactors, but hafnium is a very strong absorber of neutrons, used in reactor control rods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_rod).


http://emergency.cdc.gov/radiation/glossary.asp

hollyblue
04-03-2011, 08:44 AM
LOL, Hollyblue, I home can them in glass canning jars. I love it! I have a home pressure canner I can put up to 14 quart jars in at a time. I can even can meats! It all started because of the 2004 storms. We lost the meat from two freezers, we didn't have a generator back then. When they were over I wanted to figure out how to can the meats from two freezers so that I did not have to run both on the 5500W portable generator. I had to change from electric stove to gas though, I kept burning out electric elements due to the weight of the filled canner, lol! Now when we get a hurricane warning I start canning everything, ha! Preservation! :)

WAY OT but...You don't need a pressure canner for tomatoes though, just add a tsp of lemon juice to each quart jar to increase acidity as tomatoes are acidic anyway, then "water bath" by boiling them in the jars!

LOL. Your a busy girl. I love tomatoes and my mother use to make quarts of homemade tomato juice....some spicy. I never learned to can and miss her homemade version.

dsntslp
04-03-2011, 08:50 AM
So, the drinking water issue...

Basically, my friends in the country on well water, with reverse osmosis systems, will be able to filter water that is safe to drink?

This is all very interesting to me. I think I live just over 12 miles from a Nuclear plant. I know we are just outside the radius that gets the first round of iodine tabs.

Quiche
04-03-2011, 09:55 AM
Chemical, sawdust, newspaper mix used to plug leak at nuclear plant

Tokyo (CNN) -- Workers on Sunday poured a chemical compound mixed with sawdust and newspaper into a crack at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power facility that's been a conduit for highly radioactive water leaking into the Pacific Ocean, a utility company official said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/03/japan.nuclear.reactors/

:waitasec:

hockeymom
04-03-2011, 10:00 AM
Chemical, sawdust, newspaper mix used to plug leak at nuclear plant

Tokyo (CNN) -- Workers on Sunday poured a chemical compound mixed with sawdust and newspaper into a crack at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power facility that's been a conduit for highly radioactive water leaking into the Pacific Ocean, a utility company official said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/03/japan.nuclear.reactors/

:waitasec:

Sounds like a cob job.

Daisyjane
04-03-2011, 10:06 AM
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82889.html

TOKYO, April 3, Kyodo

The government was aware of the possibility that the reactor cores of nuclear plants could partially melt down if all power supply equipment was crippled, making it impossible to cool down the cores' nuclear fuel, even before the March 11 accident at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, according to last May's lower house minutes. Nobuaki Terasaka, who heads the government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, said on May 26, ''It is logically possible for a reactor core to melt down if all outer electricity sources were lost, leading the plant's cooling functions to be lost for many hours,'' according to the minutes of a House of Representatives committee. Terasaka also said the operators of Japanese nuclear plants ''have ensured safety'' by fitting the plants with multiple backup electricity sources. He was responding to a question from Japanese Communist Party legislator Hidekatsu Yoshii. More at link above.

Quiche
04-03-2011, 10:07 AM
Sounds like a cob job.

I don't know what that is-- but let me guess: an awkward attempt at fixing something?

Daisyjane
04-03-2011, 10:11 AM
Chemical, sawdust, newspaper mix used to plug leak at nuclear plant

Tokyo (CNN) -- Workers on Sunday poured a chemical compound mixed with sawdust and newspaper into a crack at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power facility that's been a conduit for highly radioactive water leaking into the Pacific Ocean, a utility company official said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/03/japan.nuclear.reactors/

:waitasec:


http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82882.html

Workers tried Sunday to block the leakage of highly radioactive water into the sea from the crisis-hit Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant by injecting polymeric water absorbent that can soak up 50 times its volume, but the water flow remains unaffected, the government's nuclear safety agency said.

However, those materials injected at a point 23 meters away from the seaside pit have not been sucked into the water flow, leaving no impact on the rate of leakage, said Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman for the governmental Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.

Lots more on their plans to combat leaks at link above.

hockeymom
04-03-2011, 10:18 AM
I don't know what that is-- but let me guess: an awkward attempt at fixing something?

Exactly,something my father would do to fix a leak until he finally broke down and called a plumber.

On another note,the Dr. that was interviewed in the "worst case scenario" clip,mentions we shouldn't be concerned unless things really take a turn for the worse. Well how would we know? What is taking a turn for the worse? Not being able to stop a leak sounds pretty bad to me. Does it mean an explosion? I feel like most of these people can't even go there and seemed scared to even utter the words. When should we really start to worry?

Quiche
04-03-2011, 10:24 AM
From Far Labs, a Vivid Picture Emerges of Japan Crisis

Quote: For the clearest picture of what is happening at Japan’s Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, talk to scientists thousands of miles away.

Thanks to the unfamiliar but sophisticated art of atomic forensics, experts around the world have been able to document the situation vividly. Over decades, they have become very good at illuminating the hidden workings of nuclear power plants from afar, turning scraps of information into detailed analyses.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20110403/ZNYT03/104033010/-1/news?p=1&tc=pg

Peliman
04-03-2011, 10:24 AM
Chemical, sawdust, newspaper mix used to plug leak at nuclear plant

Tokyo (CNN) -- Workers on Sunday poured a chemical compound mixed with sawdust and newspaper into a crack at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power facility that's been a conduit for highly radioactive water leaking into the Pacific Ocean, a utility company official said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/03/japan.nuclear.reactors/

:waitasec:

From the article and here's the kicker, it sounds like they are trying an expanding foam. Trouble is, the wont how how it reacts to the water it's going into. Sounds like a hail mary pass to seal the leak.


Eighty bags of a water-gel mix made by the Tokyo-based IB Daiwa company will be used in the operation. Each one contains 100 grams of material that includes a special polymer. A Tokyo Electric official said the substance should expand to several thousand times its size as it sticks, ideally, to plug the leak.

Read this earlier this morning and I'm like, we'll see what kind of mud pit this makes. There is such a thing as preparing and roughing surfaces even for paint to stick. If this dosen't work, they will need to clean the pit out before trying another sealer.

Water is a problem in getting mixtures to set and harden. I knew concrete wouldn't set and harden in water, now they have concrete mud in the pit.

Cross your fingers on the foam expanding under water.

peeples
04-03-2011, 10:29 AM
How do they get bridges and overpasses to whose "legs" are under water to harden....
Isn't that cement.. sure looks like it here locally.. we have a pretty large lake that has the bracing legs of an overpass in it.

Peliman
04-03-2011, 10:30 AM
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82882.html

Workers tried Sunday to block the leakage of highly radioactive water into the sea from the crisis-hit Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant by injecting polymeric water absorbent that can soak up 50 times its volume, but the water flow remains unaffected, the government's nuclear safety agency said.

However, those materials injected at a point 23 meters away from the seaside pit have not been sucked into the water flow, leaving no impact on the rate of leakage, said Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman for the governmental Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.

Lots more on their plans to combat leaks at link above.

It's crossed my mind that is the pit can leak water into the sea, the sea can leak sea water into the pit, especially during high tide. I think we also heard the coast along the earthquake zone, might have lowered somewhat, making me wonder if the pit is below sea level now.

Quiche
04-03-2011, 10:31 AM
The first image at this link is the "leak"...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1372787/Japan-confirms-2-Fukushima-deaths-engineers-fail-seal-radioactive-ocean-leak.html

Peliman
04-03-2011, 10:35 AM
How do they get bridges and overpasses to whose "legs" are under water to harden....
Isn't that cement.. sure looks like it here locally.. we have a pretty large lake that has the bracing legs of an overpass in it.

Those are pre-built on land and assembled under and above the water.

Daisyjane
04-03-2011, 10:41 AM
Those are pre-built on land and assembled under and above the water.

Plus, it's not a zillion degrees Celsius in the lake, like it is in the reactors.

peeples
04-03-2011, 10:46 AM
This doesn't fix the temp issue, but hydrolic concrete will cure under water... however it needs to be kept away from strong waves and stuff..

http://www.ehow.com/how_5164757_cure-concrete-under-water.html

peeples
04-03-2011, 10:47 AM
Army Corps of engineers PDF on underwater concrete
http://www.wes.army.mil/SL/INP/reports/inpsl1.pdf

They talk about minerals being added, and limestone
thermal behavior...

Peliman
04-03-2011, 10:48 AM
The first image at this link is the "leak"...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1372787/Japan-confirms-2-Fukushima-deaths-engineers-fail-seal-radioactive-ocean-leak.html

Not as much water in the pit that I'd imagined. They might be successful eventually. Thanks

Daisyjane
04-03-2011, 10:51 AM
More than 50% over the limit, those mushrooms.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82903.html

TOKYO, April 3, Kyodo The health ministry said Sunday it has detected radioactive substances higher than the legal limits in mushrooms sampled Friday in Iwaki, Fukushima Prefecture, where the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is located. The Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare said it found the mushrooms to contain 3,100 becquerels of radioactive iodine and 890 becquerels of radioactive cesium against the limits of 2,000 becquerels and 500 becquerels. The announcement led the prefectural government to ask farmers to voluntarily refrain from shipping mushrooms in Iwaki.

Meanwhile, the science ministry said its helicopter, which examined air samples at the altitude of 160-650 meters, detected radiation of 0.30 microsieverts per hour in the sky above Kawamata in the prefecture -- a level more than 10 times the normal figures for the prefecture's sky at 0.01-0.03 microsieverts.

Peliman
04-03-2011, 11:13 AM
Army Corps of engineers PDF on underwater concrete
http://www.wes.army.mil/SL/INP/reports/inpsl1.pdf

They talk about minerals being added, and limestone
thermal behavior...

Good find and keep reading, it's technique. Yes cement has different types of mixes. Some strengths and plastics can be used to increase hardness. Fiberglass stands are one type which keeps concrete from cracking. Looking at their diagram I don't think it's possible to get all the equipment needed to do this type of pouring. Looking at the pictures Quiche has posted it was a very small pour and may have been brought to the pit by hand and wheel barrow.

Here's a pic of their setup and pouring from underneath an already poured surface. The question is, is this method practical.

14328

peeples
04-03-2011, 11:21 AM
I saw it and yeah it just kinda looked haphazardly dumped into there.....

dsntslp
04-03-2011, 11:45 AM
Looking at one of the news sites and out of the corner of my eye I see...

"Click to pray"

not

"Click to play". (Which is what was really written.)

Subconscious at work?

Click, click, click, click, click...

:)

not_my_kids
04-03-2011, 12:51 PM
More than 50% over the limit, those mushrooms.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82903.html

TOKYO, April 3, Kyodo The health ministry said Sunday it has detected radioactive substances higher than the legal limits in mushrooms sampled Friday in Iwaki, Fukushima Prefecture, where the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is located. The Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare said it found the mushrooms to contain 3,100 becquerels of radioactive iodine and 890 becquerels of radioactive cesium against the limits of 2,000 becquerels and 500 becquerels. The announcement led the prefectural government to ask farmers to voluntarily refrain from shipping mushrooms in Iwaki.

Meanwhile, the science ministry said its helicopter, which examined air samples at the altitude of 160-650 meters, detected radiation of 0.30 microsieverts per hour in the sky above Kawamata in the prefecture -- a level more than 10 times the normal figures for the prefecture's sky at 0.01-0.03 microsieverts.

Gee and just yesterday they were trying to convince us that everything was still within legal limits....at this point, it's not about making up their minds, it's about telling the truth. It's black or white, one or the other, but it can't be both.
Someone asked when we should really start to worry...personally, I would say about 2 weeks ago, if not before.

not_my_kids
04-03-2011, 01:00 PM
Engineers pinned their hopes on chemicals, sawdust and shredded newspaper to stop highly radioactive water pouring into the ocean from Japan’s tsunami-ravaged nuclear plant Sunday as officials said it will take several months to bring the crisis under control, the first time they have provided a timetable.
http://www.newsday.com/news/world/engineers-pin-hopes-on-polymer-to-stop-nuke-leak-1.2797986
You have to pay to read more, but I read the list of the stuff they are putting in the pit and all I could think of was third grade and paper mache....That does not inspire confidence.

and

The leaks did not stop after concrete was poured into the pit, and TEPCO turned to water-absorbent polymers to prevent any more contaminated water from going out.

The latest effort to staunch the flow of radioactive water into the Pacific started on Sunday afternoon. Workers then topped the polymers with more concrete.

"We were hoping the polymers would function like diapers but are yet to see a visible effect," said Hidehiko Nishiyama, a deputy director general of the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/03/japan-idUSL3E7F309220110403

BBM. Diapers and Paper mache...God help us all.

Quiche
04-03-2011, 01:08 PM
This article explains the certificate needed to get shelter outside of the radioactive zones.

Inside the Danger Zone

Quote: ... In the parking lot, government officials in white hazmat suits swept Geiger counters over anxious residents who waited patiently in line. Kenji Sasahara, 45, a public-health physician, explained that the towns 9,783 remaining residentsperhaps one third of the pre-earthquake populationhad voluntarily come forward to be screened. In return, the government issued all but three of them a certificate stating that their radiation level was below 0.0001 millisievers, indicating no detrimental impact to the human body. Three, who worked near the plant, registered higher levels and were given high-pressure hot showers to remove iodine. Then they, too, were released.

The certificate is important, Sasahara said, because people living near the damaged reactor have already begun to face discrimination. They have been barred from staying in inns outside Fukushima prefecture. Angry motorists in Tokyo and other cities have complained that Fukushima-plate-bearing cars were contaminated. Some Minamisoma citizens have sought treatment at medical clinics in cities beyond the buffer zone, only to be turned away because they didnt have radiation-free certificates.

Sasahara says the harsh treatment worryingly echoes the stigma endured for decades by hibakushasurvivors of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II. We want to prove that these people are not contaminated, so they wont be discriminated against because they come from Fukushima, says Sasahara.


http://www.newsweek.com/2011/04/03/inside-the-danger-zone.html

bessie
04-03-2011, 02:39 PM
From the article and here's the kicker, it sounds like they are trying an expanding foam. Trouble is, the wont how how it reacts to the water it's going into. Sounds like a hail mary pass to seal the leak.

Eighty bags of a water-gel mix made by the Tokyo-based IB Daiwa company will be used in the operation. Each one contains 100 grams of material that includes a special polymer. A Tokyo Electric official said the substance should expand to several thousand times its size as it sticks, ideally, to plug the leak.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/03/japan.nuclear.reactors/

Read this earlier this morning and I'm like, we'll see what kind of mud pit this makes. There is such a thing as preparing and roughing surfaces even for paint to stick. If this dosen't work, they will need to clean the pit out before trying another sealer.

Water is a problem in getting mixtures to set and harden. I knew concrete wouldn't set and harden in water, now they have concrete mud in the pit.

Cross your fingers on the foam expanding under water.
This sounds like a novelty item that was marketed as plant soil in the late 80's-early 90's. Can't recall the name. The selling point was that plants would grow for months without being watered. It was even available in a variety of colors you could match to your decor. :rolleyes: Anyone else remember this stuff?

Anyway, it was crystals containing some kind of plastic polymers and organic nutrients, I would assume, in a clear container shaped like a small to medium sized flower pot. You'd add water, and it would turn into a very sticky, low viscose gel strong enough to support an average houseplant. Someone gave my husband a couple of samples, so we tried it. The plants grew well for several months, but from what I recall, the "soil" dessicated after several months and adding water did not return its gel-ness. There was little shrinkage, though, and the hardened substance retained its shape in the pot. So I'm thinking, if the Japanese are using some super-duper form of this stuff, it just might work.

ETA: FYI, after googling I find this plant gel is still available under different names.

Quiche
04-03-2011, 02:41 PM
Absorbent yet to soak up radioactive water at Fukushima plant

Quote:...the water flow remains unaffected...

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82882.html

You know, we haven't heard any numbers on the level of radiation in the ocean since Thursday's numbers (10,000 times legal limits). This leak was discovered after that-- they must be astronomical at this point. jmo

Verity
04-03-2011, 03:11 PM
BBM. Diapers and Paper mache...God help us all.
Respectfully snipped.

Sounds like a Heath Robinson with less chance of success: :banghead:
Heath Robinson

So if I'm reading this right, (hopefully not), as things stand, humanity has a future embracing the impact of 50 - 100 years of leaking radioactive particles into the Pacific Ocean. The International community is responding by sending lots of heavy equipment and manpower to try and figure something out, but nobody has any reliable plan, or precedent on which to estimate likely timeframe. Equipment sent to Japan cannot be returned, as it will be too contaminated, so in the event of a similar occurrence elsewhere, said equipment won't be available locally.:maddening:

I'm going for a walk on the beach and to say hello to the newly returned and nesting Ospreys.

peeples
04-03-2011, 04:42 PM
Indonesia just had a 6.7 earthquake

dsntslp
04-03-2011, 04:51 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Indonesia

Quote:
A physics lecturer from Airlangga University said that need for electricity is continuing to go up and fossil fuel reserves are to be depleted soon. Indonesia is quite ready and able to develop nuclear power plant. The nuclear experts are ready and prepared and they have been successfully conducted some nuclear research since 1970s. Vietnam already had nuclear power plant, while Malaysia and Philippines are the next to have. So, Indonesia should initial it soon.[3]

Although there are nuclear crisis in Japan, Indonesia is unlikely to halt its plan of building its first nuclear power plant due to electricity crisis. Indonesian Nuclear Energy Regulation Agency (Bapeten) has confirmed that seven nuclear supervisors were on IAEA missions in several countries, including one in Tokyo, Japan, so Indonesia are ready to operate nuclear power plants as soon as those facilities are built.[4]
[edit] Locations of nuclear reactors

For research purposes, experimental nuclear reactors have already been built in Indonesia:

1. Yogyakarta, Central Java. This is the Kartini nuclear research reactor.
2. Serpong (Banten).This is the MPR RSG-GA Siwabessy research reactor.
3. Bandung, West Java. This is the Triga Mark II nuclear research reactor.

According to an observer, Indonesia is viable to build a nuclear reactor in every province due to there being ample stocks of materials and appropriate geological support. As a tin mining area, monazite exists everywhere at Bangka and Belitung island. The 182.9 tons of monazite sediment was found in Mount Muntai and it is sufficient for a nuclear power plant which will be built in West bangka and South Bangka.[5][Full citation needed]
Endquote:

More at link.

dsntslp
04-03-2011, 04:57 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/03/indonesia.quake/index.html?hpt=T2

6.7-magnitude quake strikes off Indonesia

(CNN) -- A magnitude-6.7 earthquake struck off the coast of Indonesia early Monday, the U.S. Geological Survey reported.

The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center issued an alert notifying authorities of "a very small possibility of a local tsunami that could affect coasts located usually no more than 100 kilometers (62 miles) from the earthquake epicenter."

The quake's epicenter was located 149 miles east-northeast of Christmas Island at a depth of 14.9 miles, USGS said.

not_my_kids
04-03-2011, 04:59 PM
I fear that we know where this issue with the crack is going. Finding a stopgap measure (a finger to stick in the dam) and more men sacrificing themselves to go down there and permanently repair it.

I hope they have a better way, but for the life of me, I'm not seeing one.

Daisyjane
04-03-2011, 06:23 PM
You guys think this plan will work?

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82921.html

TOKYO, April 4, Kyodo

The government has asked Tokyo Electric Power Co., operator of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, to study the possibility of containing radioactive substances from four damaged reactors by wrapping their entire containment buildings with a huge amount of sheeting, government sources said Sunday. The proposal calls for building framed structures around the 45-meter-high containment buildings and then wrapping them with the sheeting, the sources said. If all of the four buildings were wrapped in this manner, it would cost about 80 billion yen and take up to two months, the sources said.But atomic energy experts are skeptical about the feasibility of the plan, proposed by a general construction firm, saying the step would have only limited effects in blocking the release of radioactive substances into the environment.

Daisyjane
04-03-2011, 06:31 PM
Longer article detailing current efforts, but this is what stood out to me:

"Experts estimate that about 7 tons an hour of radioactive water is escaping the pit." That's just from the crack in Reactor 2. Wonder what the total from all four reactors would be?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/04/world/asia/04japan.html?pagewanted=1

Verity
04-03-2011, 06:34 PM
You guys think this plan will work?

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82921.html

TOKYO, April 4, Kyodo

The government has asked Tokyo Electric Power Co., operator of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, to study the possibility of containing radioactive substances from four damaged reactors by wrapping their entire containment buildings with a huge amount of sheeting, government sources said Sunday. The proposal calls for building framed structures around the 45-meter-high containment buildings and then wrapping them with the sheeting, the sources said. If all of the four buildings were wrapped in this manner, it would cost about 80 billion yen and take up to two months, the sources said.But atomic energy experts are skeptical about the feasibility of the plan, proposed by a general construction firm, saying the step would have only limited effects in blocking the release of radioactive substances into the environment.


How does a lid on a leaky bucket solve the problem?


A source close to the government criticized its latest move, saying, ''Politicians and the TEPCO management adopted the proposal from the major construction company which does not have deep knowledge about nuclear power plants.''

Sounds about right, but only applying common sense, no particular expertise.

bessie
04-03-2011, 06:50 PM
You guys think this plan will work?

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82921.html

TOKYO, April 4, Kyodo

The government has asked Tokyo Electric Power Co., operator of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, to study the possibility of containing radioactive substances from four damaged reactors by wrapping their entire containment buildings with a huge amount of sheeting, government sources said Sunday. The proposal calls for building framed structures around the 45-meter-high containment buildings and then wrapping them with the sheeting, the sources said. If all of the four buildings were wrapped in this manner, it would cost about 80 billion yen and take up to two months, the sources said.But atomic energy experts are skeptical about the feasibility of the plan, proposed by a general construction firm, saying the step would have only limited effects in blocking the release of radioactive substances into the environment.
I just finished preparing a pie and almost forgot to make the slits in the top crust before it went in the oven. A big oops because with the edges of the crust well-sealed, I would've had a big mess. I don't know much about nuclear reactors, but if the materials emit heat, I would think that expanding particles or gases would find a way to escape and might erupt the surface. *shrug*

buffetoflies
04-03-2011, 10:38 PM
OT but what flavor of pie is it?

bessie
04-03-2011, 11:18 PM
OT but what flavor of pie is it?
lol Actually, it was a chicken pot pie. I've never cared for them, but my husband recently told me he loved his mother's pot pies, so thought I'd give it try. It was de-lish!

I just read the whole article, and it looks like my pie theory is correct:
Osaka University professor emeritus Keiji Miyazaki said that there is the risk that such sheeting would be torn apart by heat emanating from nuclear reactors. ''What must be done speedily is rather the restoration of the reactors' cooling functions,'' said the professor of atomic energy engineering.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82921.html

not_my_kids
04-03-2011, 11:42 PM
Engineers also planned to begin injecting nitrogen gas into reactors Nos. 1, 2 and 3 in an attempt to prevent possible explosions from the buildup of hydrogen gas. Explosions at the three reactors in the first four days after the magnitude 9 earthquake and accompanying tsunami that struck Japan on March 11 badly damaged the reactor buildings and disabled the cooling pumps that provided water to the reactors. Government officials say it may take months to fully restore the cooling systems.

The official death toll from the disaster topped 12,000 on Sunday, as about 25,000 U.S. and Japanese troops finished an intensive three-day effort to recover bodies. The search located 78 corpses, but more than 15,000 people are still officially listed as missing. Some 160,000 survivors remain in shelters.

Japan's Red Cross and the Central Community Chest of Japan have collected more than $1 billion but have yet to distribute any cash directly to victims, prompting chief cabinet secretary Yukio Edano to urge Sunday that the process be accelerated.

A Red Cross spokeswoman, Miyoko Kawamura, responded that the payments would likely start within the month of April.
http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2011/04/03/news/national/doc4d9936242c360002369332.txt

not_my_kids
04-03-2011, 11:44 PM
The Japanese government announced Sunday that reactors 1 through 4 at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Plant will be covered with a special cloth to reduce the amount of radioactive particles being released into the atmosphere.
A forty-five meter high frame will be constructed within a month or two to support the cloth covering the reactors.
http://www.arirang.co.kr/News/News_View.asp?nseq=114493&code=Ne8&category=1
I have so many doubts about this.

mysticrose
04-03-2011, 11:47 PM
The Japanese government announced Sunday that reactors 1 through 4 at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Plant will be covered with a special cloth to reduce the amount of radioactive particles being released into the atmosphere.
A forty-five meter high frame will be constructed within a month or two to support the cloth covering the reactors.
http://www.arirang.co.kr/News/News_View.asp?nseq=114493&code=Ne8&category=1
I have so many doubts about this.

A month or two :waitasec: really, wow. I would hope like a week or two....

OneLove
04-03-2011, 11:52 PM
I can't thank you wonderful folks enough for following this news and keeping us posted. I am away from home caring for a terminally ill relative and have no time to do my usual "leisure reading" here at Websleuths. But I do manage to sneak VERY frequent looks at THIS thread via my phone. You are the best news source ever, beating out CNN, MSNBC, BBC, and a live Japanese channel I also have loaded on my phone. If I only have 30 seconds to peak, its you guys hands down! I honor you faithful posters right along with the Fukishima Valiants ( can't make myself say Fifty since there are so many more).

Unsettling story to tell: last week we took visitors out to breakfast. There was a hole in the wall, funky little retail shop across the street that caught one's eye, so we all meandered over to check it out. We struck up a conversation with the odd little owner and I asked how he came to start his shop. He surprisingly said he had been a nuclear engineer with the Department of Defence in Colorado. He began explaining "criticality" and how he came to feel the use of nuclear energy is insane, so he left his profession for good. I asked him what the worst case scenario in Japan could be and he said that would be if the reactors attained criticality. I asked what, in his opinion, would happen, and his answer was shocking and gutwrenching. We all left his shop pretty traumatized. We considered that HE might be the insane one, mentally disturbed and dismissed from his profession. I kinda want to believe that 'cuz it would be a truth so much easier to live with than what he told us Still not sure what to believe. But I know that if what he told us has any truth in it whatsoever, it explains why the public reports all seem to stop short of spelling it out.

I pray that many are sending powerful prayers/intentions, as I DO absolutely believe that has the ability to affect what happens. Many prayers can uplift and transcend, all of us in unison can be powerful in our thoughts and highest intentions. Our earth needs our focus and best intentions now like never before.

Profound healing is possible with profound love and I am sending my deepest love to you all and to the terrible wound in Japan.

Namaste - - OneLove, OneHeart, Many Paths

Peliman
04-04-2011, 06:23 AM
Monday, April 4, 2011

Tepco may release radioactive water 100 times legal limit into Pacific Kyodo News

The operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station plans to release water containing radioactive materials into the sea possibly from Tuesday in a bid to help speed up work to bring the crippled complex under control, it said Monday.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110404x1.html

Peliman
04-04-2011, 08:22 AM
More info on the damaged nuke plant water dumping into the ocean. It seems to me they are making day by day decisions while working with multiple problems at the plant. So here's some snippets from today's story but it's only partial until one reads the whole story. Attemps to seal the crack appear to have failed.


Tokyo (CNN) -- About 11,500 tons of radioactive water that has collected at the crippled Fukishima Daiichi nuclear facility will be dumped into the Pacific Ocean, officials said Monday, as workers prioritize dealing with a crack that has been a conduit for contamination.

Officials with the Tokyo Electric Power Company, which runs the plant, proposed Monday afternoon releasing excess water that has pooled in and around the Nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 reactors into the sea. But most of the dumped water -- 10,000 tons -- will come from the plant's central waste treatment facility, which will then be used to store highly radioactive water from the No. 2 unit, an official with the power company said.

Workers also have injected a dye tracer into the water to allow them to track the dispersal of such particles, the spokesman added.

The picture at the link is one spotted yesterday from the dailymail.co.uk site. Pictures tell a thousand words. I'm undecided if the long orange extension on the truck is a concrete pumper or a portable crane. It looks like a concrete pumper and maybe how they got concrete into the pit yesterday.

If it's a concrete pumper it may have only pumped one concrete trucks worth of concrete into the pit. Normally in pouring operations concrete trucks would be lined up and taking turns dumping their load into the pumper. I've seen pours take place over 12 hours that used up to 120 concrete trucks feeding the concrete pumper. They will need at least 15 concrete trucks running back and forth to a nearby concrete plant loading and unloading at the pumper with whatever mix they decide to use for projects.

It appears to me there is some competing ideas between engineers between restoring cooling to the reactors or burying them in a mix of some type.

If the leak didn't get plugged in the latest attempt. I'm afraid they may need to remove all the concrete, newspaper and and junk they have tried to use in the last two attempts before trying another approach in repairing the leak.

I feel for the workers, they have their hands full. I also think we're seeing more truthful information coming from sources. I mean they are telling us the attempts to seal the crack have failed, we're seeing pictures. Not that any of us like what's happening. Take a look at this pic, if it's a concrete pumper it's a long drop to the floor of this building, messy...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/01/article-1371793-0B7008C500000578-391_634x389.jpg

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 08:35 AM
More info on the damaged nuke plant water dumping into the ocean. It seems to me they are making day by day decisions while working with multiple problems at the plant. So here's some snippets from today's story but it's only partial until one reads the whole story. Attemps to seal the crack appear to have failed.



The picture at the link is one spotted yesterday from the dailymail.co.uk site. Pictures tell a thousand words. I'm undecided if the long orange extension on the truck is a concrete pumper or a portable crane. It looks like a concrete pumper and maybe how they got concrete into the pit yesterday.

If it's a concrete pumper it may have only pumped one concrete trucks worth of concrete into the pit. Normally in pouring operations concrete trucks would be lined up and taking turns dumping their load into the pumper. I've seen pours take place over 12 hours that used up to 120 concrete trucks feeding the concrete pumper. They will need at least 15 concrete trucks running back and forth to a nearby concrete plant loading and unloading at the pumper with whatever mix they decide to use for projects.

It appears to me there is some competing ideas between engineers between restoring cooling to the reactors or burying them in a mix of some type.

If the leak didn't get plugged in the latest attempt, I'm afraid they may need to remove all the concrete, newspaper and and junk they have tried to use in the last two attempts before trying another approach in repairing the leak.

I feel for the workers, they have their hands full. I also think we're seeing more truthful information coming from sources. I mean they are telling us the attempts to seal the crack have failed, we're seeing pictures. Not that any of us like what's happening. Take a look at this pic, if it's a concrete pumper it's a long drop to the floor of this building, messy...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/01/article-1371793-0B7008C500000578-391_634x389.jpg

If that's the concrete pumper, I can see why one is having little effect. Actually no matter what that is, I can see why it's having little effect. It seems like they are trying to hunt elephants with a flyswatter.

For the scientists that support trying to bring back the cooling functions...have they seen the reactor housings? Are they aware that the maintenance pit that is cracked and now leaking radioactive material back out is in a position where (I think) it would have to be fixed in order to do anything to the electrical for #2? And that so far, attempts to fix that crack with the equivalent of diapers and paper mache have been unsuccessful?

essies
04-04-2011, 08:36 AM
I can't thank you wonderful folks enough for following this news and keeping us posted. I am away from home caring for a terminally ill relative and have no time to do my usual "leisure reading" here at Websleuths. But I do manage to sneak VERY frequent looks at THIS thread via my phone. You are the best news source ever, beating out CNN, MSNBC, BBC, and a live Japanese channel I also have loaded on my phone. If I only have 30 seconds to peak, its you guys hands down! I honor you faithful posters right along with the Fukishima Valiants ( can't make myself say Fifty since there are so many more).

Unsettling story to tell: last week we took visitors out to breakfast. There was a hole in the wall, funky little retail shop across the street that caught one's eye, so we all meandered over to check it out. We struck up a conversation with the odd little owner and I asked how he came to start his shop. He surprisingly said he had been a nuclear engineer with the Department of Defence in Colorado. He began explaining "criticality" and how he came to feel the use of nuclear energy is insane, so he left his profession for good. I asked him what the worst case scenario in Japan could be and he said that would be if the reactors attained criticality. I asked what, in his opinion, would happen, and his answer was shocking and gutwrenching. We all left his shop pretty traumatized. We considered that HE might be the insane one, mentally disturbed and dismissed from his profession. I kinda want to believe that 'cuz it would be a truth so much easier to live with than what he told us Still not sure what to believe. But I know that if what he told us has any truth in it whatsoever, it explains why the public reports all seem to stop short of spelling it out.

I pray that many are sending powerful prayers/intentions, as I DO absolutely believe that has the ability to affect what happens. Many prayers can uplift and transcend, all of us in unison can be powerful in our thoughts and highest intentions. Our earth needs our focus and best intentions now like never before.

Profound healing is possible with profound love and I am sending my deepest love to you all and to the terrible wound in Japan.

Namaste - - OneLove, OneHeart, Many Paths

Oh my everyone pay attention to Arnie Gunderson in this video. He mentions "criticality"-this ain't good and doesn't look like it's getting any better!!

Fukushima Update from Fairewinds with evidence of periodic chain reaction at reactor 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sryIe-sirG4

essies
04-04-2011, 08:42 AM
Monday, April 4, 2011

Tepco may release radioactive water 100 times legal limit into Pacific Kyodo News

The operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station plans to release water containing radioactive materials into the sea possibly from Tuesday in a bid to help speed up work to bring the crippled complex under control, it said Monday.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110404x1.html
Japan To Dump Thousands Of TONS Of Radioactive Material Into The Ocean!-April 04, 2011 CNN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZZLOqUY454

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 08:45 AM
Hawaii is grappling with twin effects from Japan's earthquake. Not only did last month's temblor generate a tsunami that damaged or destroyed dozens of local shops and attractions, but Japanese tourists are now canceling travel to the state amid the devastation back home, The Wall Street Journal reported in its Monday edition.

The number of Japanese visitors to the Aloha State has fallen 25 percent since the March 11 quake, compared with a year ago, according to the Hawaii Tourism Authority. The drop follows a 28 percent increase in Japanese tourists from January 1 through late February from a year ago, said the state agency. With hotels reporting cancellations of future bookings as high as 45 percent, Hawaii is bracing for further tourism impact.
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpps/your_money/japan-quake-tsunami-sink-hawaii-tourism-dpgonc-20110404-fc_12613095

- RADIOACTIVE DUMP PLANNED. Plant operators dump 10,000 tons of radioactive water into the ocean to make room at a storage site for more highly contaminated water.
http://www.katv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14376651

Japan's government on Monday told the operator of the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant to move quickly to stop radiation seeping into the ocean as desperate engineers resorted to bath salts to help trace a leak from one reactor.
http://www.emirates247.com/news/world/tepco-told-to-hurry-on-radiation-tries-bath-salts-2011-04-04-1.376891

April 4 (Bloomberg) -- Tokyo Electric Power Co. plans to build an undersea silt barrier stop the leak of radioactive fluids from its crippled nuclear station after attempts to block the flow of contaminated water from a reactor failed.

"A silt fence ensures that mud down deep doesn't seep through," Hidehiko Nishiyama, Japan's spokesman on nuclear safety, said in Tokyo. The barrier may take "several days" to install and will "ensure that water doesn't leak from the area in front of the No. 2 reactor's intake duct and the conduit."

Japanese officials are trying new ways to plug the leak and met Jeffrey Immelt, chief executive officer of General Electric Co., to discuss technical support to contain the crisis at reactors based on the U.S. company's design. The leak itself may not pose a severe threat, said Kathryn Higley, professor of nuclear engineering and radiation health physics at Oregon State University.

"You're likely to have a footprint in the soil and the sands and sediments as that material leaks out, but the impact is likely to be pretty minimal," Higley said yesterday in a telephone interview. "Even if it does get out into that marine environment, that area around there has been pretty badly torn up, so there's not a lot of life to be impacting."



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/04/04/bloomberg1376-lj3bwv1a74e901-5nfkohb5crmjpjcu5gc16fs0hu.DTL#ixzz1IYebALHY

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 08:48 AM
My second link above...does that make any sense to anyone, or does it sound like they expect this to get worse? Think about it, they are dumping upwards of ten thousand tons of irradiated water back into the ocean, so that they can have somewhere to store the irradiated water from the next round of cooling. Is this round of water the lesser of two evils, with levels expected to rise in the next round of cooling water?

Either way, not the best plan or reasoning that I have ever heard...

Peliman
04-04-2011, 08:52 AM
My second link above...does that make any sense to anyone, or does it sound like they expect this to get worse? Think about it, they are dumping upwards of ten thousand tons of irradiated water back into the ocean, so that they can have somewhere to store the irradiated water from the next round of cooling. Is this round of water the lesser of two evils, with levels expected to rise in the next round of cooling water?

Either way, not the best plan or reasoning that I have ever heard...

I've seen it explained as unavoidable.

essies
04-04-2011, 08:55 AM
Government Under Fire as Radiation Is Found in Milk, Rain
Federal officials have still not published any official data on nuclear fallout from Japan disaster
John Upton on April 2, 2011
snip-
Radiation from Japan rained on Berkeley during recent storms at levels that exceeded drinking water standards by 181 times and has been detected in multiple milk samples, but the U.S. government has still not published any official data on nuclear fallout here from the Fukushima disaster
The official mantra from a lot of folks in government is, Oh, its OK in low levels, said Patty Lovera, a Washington-based assistant director at the nonprofit Food and Water Watch.


But low levels add up. We would like to see a more coherent strategy for monitoring air and water in agricultural areas and then using that data to come up with a plan, if you need one, to go look at the food system.

Radiation falling with rain can cover grass that is eaten by cows and other animals. It can also fall on food crops or accumulate in reservoirs that are used for irrigation or drinking water. Seafood can also be affected.

more at link-
http://www.baycitizen.org/japan-disaster/story/government-under-fire-radiation-milk/1/

Peliman
04-04-2011, 09:01 AM
If that's the concrete pumper, I can see why one is having little effect. Actually no matter what that is, I can see why it's having little effect. It seems like they are trying to hunt elephants with a flyswatter.

For the scientists that support trying to bring back the cooling functions...have they seen the reactor housings? Are they aware that the maintenance pit that is cracked and now leaking radioactive material back out is in a position where (I think) it would have to be fixed in order to do anything to the electrical for #2?d that so far, attempts to fix that crack with the equivalent of diapers and paper mache have been unsuccessful?

My guess is they have not seen the housings, they are supposedly encased in concrete. What I don't know is if any of the explosions that occurred damaged the concrete surrounding the housings.

I'm unclear concerning the repair of the crack and electrial on #2 because I've seen a report stating something like "where the electric lines converge."
Great catch too :)

Daisyjane
04-04-2011, 10:03 AM
Dumping 'lower level' radioactive water into the Pacific - right now. But remember a few days ago we read/discussed how they were increasing the allowable limits of radiation in milk and food? How long until they start allowing higher levels of radiation in the water they dump into the sea?

Daisyjane
04-04-2011, 10:17 AM
Will this finally give us some real answers as to what to expect?

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/83065.html

TOKYO, April 4, Kyodo

The government has ordered the Japan Meteorological Agency to promptly disclose its data on the projected spread of radioactive materials from the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station, the government's top spokesman said Monday. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said in a news conference that he had told the agency that it ''should have made the data public'' along with an adequate explanation. According to Edano, the agency did not disclose the information because it was part of reference materials compiled in response to a request from the International Atomic Energy Agency, and it feared that releasing the data could cause misunderstanding about the spread of radiation.

The agency conducted a simulation assuming the release of a certain level of radioactive materials from the Fukushima plant to gauge how the materials would spread based on weather conditions in the vicinity of the plant, Edano said. The projection showed the potential spread of radioactive materials per 100 square kilometers, the chief Cabinet secretary said, adding that the IAEA had asked the agency for the projection so that the U.N. nuclear watchdog could gauge the possible global impact.

tehcloser
04-04-2011, 10:28 AM
Sorry fishies.........what crap. I'm not an educated person by any means. But I know if we start killing even a "little bit" of our oceans, it's not good. And I know if the "experts" tell us "y" is an acceptable SAFE level of radiation and then some IDIOT changes it to "x", that's not good either. I also know that it is a cumulative effect that we need to worry about. I guess they think we are too stoopid to understand "sustained" levels. pppffftttt.

hockeymom
04-04-2011, 10:36 AM
I can't thank you wonderful folks enough for following this news and keeping us posted. I am away from home caring for a terminally ill relative and have no time to do my usual "leisure reading" here at Websleuths. But I do manage to sneak VERY frequent looks at THIS thread via my phone. You are the best news source ever, beating out CNN, MSNBC, BBC, and a live Japanese channel I also have loaded on my phone. If I only have 30 seconds to peak, its you guys hands down! I honor you faithful posters right along with the Fukishima Valiants ( can't make myself say Fifty since there are so many more).

Unsettling story to tell: last week we took visitors out to breakfast. There was a hole in the wall, funky little retail shop across the street that caught one's eye, so we all meandered over to check it out. We struck up a conversation with the odd little owner and I asked how he came to start his shop. He surprisingly said he had been a nuclear engineer with the Department of Defence in Colorado. He began explaining "criticality" and how he came to feel the use of nuclear energy is insane, so he left his profession for good. I asked him what the worst case scenario in Japan could be and he said that would be if the reactors attained criticality. I asked what, in his opinion, would happen, and his answer was shocking and gutwrenching. We all left his shop pretty traumatized. We considered that HE might be the insane one, mentally disturbed and dismissed from his profession. I kinda want to believe that 'cuz it would be a truth so much easier to live with than what he told us Still not sure what to believe. But I know that if what he told us has any truth in it whatsoever, it explains why the public reports all seem to stop short of spelling it out.

I pray that many are sending powerful prayers/intentions, as I DO absolutely believe that has the ability to affect what happens. Many prayers can uplift and transcend, all of us in unison can be powerful in our thoughts and highest intentions. Our earth needs our focus and best intentions now like never before.

Profound healing is possible with profound love and I am sending my deepest love to you all and to the terrible wound in Japan.

Namaste - - OneLove, OneHeart, Many Paths

Could you share the man's opinion on exactly what would happen if criticality is reached. The worst case scenario. It seems anyone I've seen on TV,stops short of saying exactly what it is that could happen. Its like they don't even want to say it outloud.
Sorry to hear about your relative. Sending comforting thoughts to you and them.

Quiche
04-04-2011, 10:47 AM
Government Under Fire as Radiation Is Found in Milk, Rain
Federal officials have still not published any official data on nuclear fallout from Japan disaster
John Upton on April 2, 2011
snip-
Radiation from Japan rained on Berkeley during recent storms at levels that exceeded drinking water standards by 181 times and has been detected in multiple milk samples, but the U.S. government has still not published any official data on nuclear fallout here from the Fukushima disaster
The official mantra from a lot of folks in government is, Oh, its OK in low levels, said Patty Lovera, a Washington-based assistant director at the nonprofit Food and Water Watch.


But low levels add up. We would like to see a more coherent strategy for monitoring air and water in agricultural areas and then using that data to come up with a plan, if you need one, to go look at the food system.

Radiation falling with rain can cover grass that is eaten by cows and other animals. It can also fall on food crops or accumulate in reservoirs that are used for irrigation or drinking water. Seafood can also be affected.

more at link-
http://www.baycitizen.org/japan-disaster/story/government-under-fire-radiation-milk/1/

This makes me furious! We hear this "miniscule level" is actually 181 times above the safety standard!!! ARGGGGGG! :furious:

ScorpRising
04-04-2011, 10:53 AM
Could you share the man's opinion on exactly what would happen if criticality is reached. The worst case scenario. It seems anyone I've seen on TV,stops short of saying exactly what it is that could happen. Its like they don't even want to say it outloud.
Sorry to hear about your relative. Sending comforting thoughts to you and them.

I was going to ask the same question and if you don't want to post please let me know by some other method as it seems everyone is mum at work lately. Can't speak against the establishment, etc (my words, not theirs).

cinsbythesea
04-04-2011, 11:02 AM
Could you share the man's opinion on exactly what would happen if criticality is reached. The worst case scenario. It seems anyone I've seen on TV,stops short of saying exactly what it is that could happen. Its like they don't even want to say it outloud.
Sorry to hear about your relative. Sending comforting thoughts to you and them.

I too would be really interested in your telling us what the man said about the worst case scenario. Thanks in advance. My best wishes to you and your ill relative - remember to take care of you as well during this difficult time.

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 11:02 AM
Scary question here but...

Which one produces less fallout:

1. Allowing these reactors to continue to slowly spit and spill radiation and chemicals for an unknown amount of time (that to me sounds like it may be forever,btw)

2. Bomb the whole mess and get it over with?

What I am getting at is, I realizing bombing the plant would produce horrific amounts of radiation and all sorts of bad chemicals that would get into the atmosphere but isn't it possible that allowing this plant to remain on the planet would be allowing it to leak for many generations to come, if they can not control it?

I know I read here somewhere that the fallout from bombs would release different chemicals than what we are seeing now though, right?

:(

NOT that I WANT them to bomb the plant, I am just trying to understand, I guess.

Daisyjane
04-04-2011, 11:11 AM
Scary question here but...

Which one produces less fallout:

1. Allowing these reactors to continue to slowly spit and spill radiation and chemicals for an unknown amount of time (that to me sounds like it may be forever,btw)

2. Bomb the whole mess and get it over with?

What I am getting at is, I realizing bombing the plant would produce horrific amounts of radiation and all sorts of bad chemicals that would get into the atmosphere but isn't it possible that allowing this plant to remain on the planet would be allowing it to leak for many generations to come, if they can not control it?

I know I read here somewhere that the fallout from bombs would release different chemicals than what we are seeing now though, right?

:(

NOT that I WANT them to bomb the plant, I am just trying to understand, I guess.

Seems like it's gonna be a question of "how do you want your radiation? Do you want it in your water, or your food, or do you want to inhale it?"

Quiche
04-04-2011, 11:12 AM
I found this site looking at information about neutrons and their effects in humans. This has a wealth of information and seems to be recognizing the Fukushima disaster. I am just beginning to look around, but I thought I'd share:

http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/

Quiche
04-04-2011, 11:14 AM
Seems like it's gonna be a question of "how do you want your radiation? Do you want it in your water, or your food, or do you want to inhale it?"

Or, in the case of neutrons (I believe)-- become it. :(

hockeymom
04-04-2011, 11:18 AM
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Canadian+inspection+agency+refuses+test+milk+radia tion/4548777/story.html

For our Canadian friends,why wouldn't your government do testing? That would really Pi** me off.

Also I have googled for an explaination on what would happen in the worst case scenario and can't find anything on the net. Is it a conspiracy? Maybe I'm not wording it properly. I get the scientific explaination,but not info on what the results to the world would be.

Quiche
04-04-2011, 11:40 AM
Hazards of neutron radiation for those working there--

Quote: Another, sometimes more severe hazard of neutron radiation, is neutron activation, the ability of neutron radiation to induce radioactivity in most substances it encounters, including the body tissues of the workers themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_radiation

Daisyjane
04-04-2011, 12:22 PM
Here's a good Q & A type article. I notice that TEPCO isn't even sure where the highly radioactive water is leaking from?!

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20329-fukushima-latest-the-race-to-plug-the-radiation-leak.html

Today, TEPCO engineers unsuccessfully attempted to show that the radioactive water reaching the sea came from a flooded trench beneath reactor 2 which houses electrical cabling for the unit. They poured 13 kilograms of a white powder into the trench, expecting it to emerge at the outlet into the sea. But it didn't, suggesting that the water from the trench is finding its way to the sea by a different route, possibly via groundwater.

Quiche
04-04-2011, 12:37 PM
I like the way they only cite the iodine radiation in the sea-- completely omitting the long lasting cesium contamination. :cool:

Peliman
04-04-2011, 12:37 PM
Don't recall seeing this story, maybe I've missed it. The video clip shows the dogs excitement

Rescued drifting dog reunited with owner

A dog rescued while drifting off the tsunami-stricken coast of Miyagi has been reunited with its owner more than 3 weeks after the disaster.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/04_23.html

essies
04-04-2011, 12:47 PM
Radiation Experts Determine 200,000 Cancers Likely from Fukushima
The health outcome of the Fukushima catastropheInitial analysis from risk model of theEuropean Committee on Radiation Risk ECRRChris Busby
snip-
Conclusions and recommendations
1. The ECRR risk model has been applied to the 3 million people living in the100km radius of the Fukushima catastrophe. Assuming these people remainliving there for one year the number of excess cancers predicted by the method isapproximately 200,000 in the next 50 years with 100,000 being diagnosed in thenext 10 years. If they are evacuated immediately, the number will fall by asignificant amount. For those 7 million living between 100km and 200km fromthe site, the predicted number of cancers is slightly greater with 220,000 extracancers in the next 50 years and about 100,000 being expressed in the next tenyears. These predictions are based on the ECRR risk model and also the findingsof cancer risk on Sweden after the Chernobyl accident.
2. The ICRP model predicts 2838 extra cancers in the 100km population. Theeventual yield will therefore be another test of the two risk models.
3. Calculations based on official gamma dose rates published by the JapaneseMinistry MEXT can be used to back calculate surface contamination at thepositions of the measurements using accepted scientific methods. The resultsshow that the IAEA reports have significantly under reported the contaminationlevels
4. It is recommended that urgent attention is given to making isotope specificground contamination measurements.
5. It is recommended that populations living within the 100km zone to the NorthWest of the site are immediately evacuated and the zone is made an exclusionzone.
6. The ICRP risk model should be abandoned and all political decisions shouldbe made on the basis of the recommendations of the European Committee onRadiation Riskhttp://www.euradcom.org/This is the conclusion of the eminentradiation risk experts who signed the 2009 Lesvos Declaration
7. Investigation and legal sanctions should be brought against those whoknowingly held back data from the public
8. Investigation and legal sanctions should be brought against those minimisingthe health effects of this event in the media.
http://fairewinds.com/content/health-outcome-fukushima-catastrophe-initial-analysis-risk-model-european-committee-radiatio

Full meltdown in full swing? Japan maximum nuclear alert-Chris Busby March 30,2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MognnB0g56Y

Quiche
04-04-2011, 01:48 PM
Don't recall seeing this story, maybe I've missed it. The video clip shows the dogs excitement

Rescued drifting dog reunited with owner

A dog rescued while drifting off the tsunami-stricken coast of Miyagi has been reunited with its owner more than 3 weeks after the disaster.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/04_23.html

Too sweet! Made me tear up, darn it! Thanks, Peli. :)

OneLove
04-04-2011, 02:19 PM
What's with Gunderson's Fairewinds website being offline????

Sorry, just a 30 sec. flyby. Will be back later. Xxo

Quiche
04-04-2011, 02:55 PM
What's with Gunderson's Fairewinds website being offline????

Sorry, just a 30 sec. flyby. Will be back later. Xxo

This is what I got on their multimedia link:

Due to extremely high web traffic we are currently experiencing technical problems. We are aware of these problems and will have them resolved shortly. Thank your for your patience.

http://www.fairewinds.com/multimedia

(good, I was fearing censorship, seriously)

Quiche
04-04-2011, 03:14 PM
TEPCO to drop plan to add 2 reactors at Fukushima nuclear plant

Quote: ''We now think it is impossible to add reactors,'' Takashi Fujimoto told a television program in reference to the plan to add two more reactors to the six-reactor plant.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/83108.html

Ya think? :waitasec:

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 03:38 PM
Inhaled radiation is always the worst kind,from what I've been reading. Not that eating it is good...but breathing it is worse.

If they don't know where the water is leaking from, how in the holy blue blazes are they making all these plans to control it's leakage? Especially if it is coming from groundwater. If it is coming from groundwater, why are we still fighting this? Don't get me wrong, but the risks are already there, people will get cancer and many more people will die from this. Instead of letting it go on for months, at least, spitting out more and more uncontrolled doses of radiation, let's just get it over with, pull everyone out of the plant, move every living being that is willing and able to go as far away from the plant as possible, heat up the reactors, and get it over with.
I'm not one to say "Cut your losses" where the massive loss of human life if concerned, but it's all leading there anyway. IMO.

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 03:56 PM
NMK,
That's what I was thinking.
It's why I was wondering which created more long term damage, just blowing the whole mess up or letting it go long term.

I guess it is better to let it go long term and stay lower to the ground to be filtered (ugh!) by the ocean. If they were to blow it up it would definitely contaminate everything in the path of the airstream :(

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 04:05 PM
I'm not sure that anyone knows which would be worse. Three Mile Island and Chernobyl didn't go on like this for weeks, they melted down and then the attempt to rebuild started. It was relatively quick, horrible, but fast.
I think this is pretty much unprecedented, but at least if it goes fast, we know what we are facing. And by "we" I mean the residents of this planet.

Daisyjane
04-04-2011, 04:07 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-rainwater-radiation-181-times-above-us-drinking-water-standard-2011-4

Radiation from Japan rained on Berkeley, California, during recent storms at levels that exceeded drinking water standards by 181 times. A rooftop water monitoring program managed by the University of California at Berkeleys Department of Nuclear Engineering detected substantial spikes in rain-borne iodine-131 during those torrential downpours. The levels exceeded federal drinking water thresholds, known as Maximum Contaminant Levels -- or MCLs -- by as much as 181 times or 18,100%.

Iodine-131 is one of the most cancer-causing toxic radioactive isotopes spewed when nuclear power plants are in meltdown. It is being ingested by cows, which have begun passing it through into their milk and radioactivity has been detected. Read more:

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 04:12 PM
The crack in a maintenance pit discovered over the weekend was the latest confirmation that radioactivity continues to spill into the environment. The leak is a symptom of the primary difficulty at the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex: Radioactive water is pooling around the plant and preventing workers from powering up cooling systems needed to stabilize dangerously vulnerable fuel rods.

The plant operators also deliberately dumped 10,000 tons of tainted water — measuring about 500 times above the legal limit for radiactivity — into the ocean Monday to make space at a storage site for water that is even more highly radiactive.
http://picayuneitem.com/international/x930490290/Search-for-radiation-leak-turns-desperate-in-Japan

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 04:16 PM
Am I understanding this correctly?
They need to put boron in the #1 reactor because it is self regenerating heat?
Does the efficacy of the boron last forever or will the boron need to be replenished at some point? Will it be effective until the rods are spent and can be moved?

Once the boron is added can they concrete everything in and under, capping it all?

They obviously have not found the right leak that is leaching radiation into the ground. I thought we heard it was #3 (plutonium) reactor that was affecting the soil? Doesn't this mean this would be the most natural culprit to be leaking underground and into the sea? Isn't the plutonium reactor (MOX) the one that gives off stuff that is increased in water not decreased?

So confusing, so many questions.

Not sure whether I am better off just not knowing or actually knowing...

I usually say I like to know so I can plan, now I am not so sure.

I wonder how many nuclear scientists are stocking water or if they look at us and think we are chicken-littles because they know this stuff will be filtered by the ocean or decrease in ppm in the air across the ocean.

peeples
04-04-2011, 04:22 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-rainwater-radiation-181-times-above-us-drinking-water-standard-2011-4

radiation from japan rained on berkeley, california, during recent storms at levels that exceeded drinking water standards by 181 times. A rooftop water monitoring program managed by the university of california at berkeleys department of nuclear engineering detected substantial spikes in rain-borne iodine-131 during those torrential downpours. The levels exceeded federal drinking water thresholds, known as maximum contaminant levels -- or mcls -- by as much as 181 times or 18,100%.

Iodine-131 is one of the most cancer-causing toxic radioactive isotopes spewed when nuclear power plants are in meltdown. It is being ingested by cows, which have begun passing it through into their milk and radioactivity has been detected. Read more:

whoa!!!

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 04:30 PM
Not so Chicken Little, eh?

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 04:35 PM
Re: Radio active iodine

"This is inferred to mean that it breaks down quickly, and it quickly dissipates in the environment. However, the 8 day half-life can be a misnomer because radioactive iodine can really persist in the environment for many months and has a 100 day biological half-life once inside the human body."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-rainwater-radiation-181-times-above-us-drinking-water-standard-2011-4#ixzz1IaYtppxN

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 04:38 PM
Am I understanding this correctly?
They need to put boron in the #1 reactor because it is self regenerating heat?
Does the efficacy of the boron last forever or will the boron need to be replenished at some point? Will it be effective until the rods are spent and can be moved?

Once the boron is added can they concrete everything in and under, capping it all?

They obviously have not found the right leak that is leaching radiation into the ground. I thought we heard it was #3 (plutonium) reactor that was affecting the soil? Doesn't this mean this would be the most natural culprit to be leaking underground and into the sea? Isn't the plutonium reactor (MOX) the one that gives off stuff that is increased in water not decreased?

So confusing, so many questions.

Not sure whether I am better off just not knowing or actually knowing...

I usually say I like to know so I can plan, now I am not so sure.

I wonder how many nuclear scientists are stocking water or if they look at us and think we are chicken-littles because they know this stuff will be filtered by the ocean or decrease in ppm in the air across the ocean.

Reactivity adjustment to maintain 100% power as the fuel is burned up in most commercial PWRs is normally achieved by varying the concentration of boric acid dissolved in the primary reactor coolant. Boron readily absorbs neutrons and increasing or decreasing its concentration in the reactor coolant will therefore affect the neutron activity correspondingly. An entire control system involving high pressure pumps (usually called the charging and letdown system) is required to remove water from the high pressure primary loop and re-inject the water back in with differing concentrations of boric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressurized_water_reactor

According to this, and it is Wiki, so take lightly, but it seems right, the boron would slow the neutrons, which would reduce the heat, but if it is self regenerating heat, then that means that the boron is dissipating within the reactor. So, yes, they would have to keep adding more until the neutrons were completely "dead" and stopped moving. I have no idea how long that would take. I think I saw somewhere that the fuel rods are swapped out every 6 months due to having generated the majority of the energy they can, but they still can't be transported far because they are still unstable and radioactive. So, I think it would mean consistently monitoring and dumping more boron until the rods burned themselves out. To do that fully, I don't know how long it would take, I don't know how long the rods were installed before the quake and I don't know how long it would take them to be safe for transport, if ever.

They can likely concrete over it at that point, but it won't help what is leaking, apparently, from under the reactors and by that point, there's nothing that can be done about the groundwater, seawater, and air that is already contaminated.
But all of that is just my take on it.

memeanabby
04-04-2011, 04:41 PM
Dear President Obama, With all due respect,we the American people would like to know the types and levels of dangerous ispotopes that are the direct result of the multiple accidents in the Fukushima nuclear plant.We want ongoing monitoring with clear concise information.Please get on it.We deserve the truth,as do the Japanese people.Thankyou

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 04:44 PM
It'll take about two days for workers at a Japanese nuclear power plant to pump more than 3 million gallons of contaminated water into the Pacific Ocean.
They're doing so in order to free storage space for water that is even more highly radioactive than the water they're dumping.
~snip~
Meanwhile, a spokesman for Russia's nuclear agency says Japan has asked Russia to send a vessel that is used to help dispose of liquid nuclear waste from decommissioned nuclear submarines.
http://www.weartv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.international/29777fbd-weartv.com.shtml
Confirmation of my earlier speculation.

essies
04-04-2011, 04:47 PM
Fukushima Daiichi Reactors 5-6 Stability Under Threat 04.04.11 :banghead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W7uGvW8xvY

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 05:06 PM
Maybe they should haul the rods out and pull them behind speed boats or boats that will go fast enough to keep them cool (would the motion create heat?), dump them in the frigid waters of the arctic ocean in the deepest place possible. Wouldn't that keep them cool forever? The ocean is already being used as a filtering system so why not?

I wonder how long the rods can stay out of water before they catch fire themselves? Long enough to yank them into the water there at the ocean?

Crazy idea, I know, and shows how little I understand all of this. :(

Just thinking aloud here is all.

I wonder if, at great depths, it would create so much heat that glacier melting would be a problem?

Sorry, so very many questions and no answers.




IOW, why take the water to the reactors then dump the water back out, instead of dumping the rods right in the water, idk.

Maybe they could wrap something around them while they were in frigid water, that would enable them to pull them back up at a later date, once spent, so they could be properly stored?

essies
04-04-2011, 05:13 PM
FDAs Comparison of Radiation in Milk to Everyday Exposures Called Improper .
snip-

WASHINGTON--(ENEWSPF)--April 1 - A U.S. Food and Drug Administration statement regarding milk contaminated with radiation from Japan failed to accurately inform and educate the public, four watchdog groups and a former senior advisor in the U.S. Department of Energy said today, pointing to the fact that exposure to ingested iodine-131 is substantively different than everyday exposure to radiation in the environment.

On March 30, in response to reports that radioactive iodine-131 has been found in milk in Washington state, FDA senior scientist Patricia Hansen said, Radiation is all around us in our daily lives, and these findings are a miniscule amount compared to what people experience every day. For example, a person would be exposed to low levels of radiation on a round trip cross country flight, watching television, and even from construction materials.

Damon Moglen, Director of the Climate and Energy Project at Friends of the Earth, said:

This is an apples-to-oranges comparison that lacks integrity. There is a big difference between ingesting radioactive material that accumulates in the thyroid and sitting on an airplane. You cant drink a TV or eat an airplane.

Cindy Folkers, Radiation and Health Specialist at Beyond Nuclear, said:

It is important to remember that regardless of exposure level, as the National Academies of Science have reported, there is no safe dose of radiation. Children and pregnant mothers are particularly at risk from low-dose, long-term internal exposure.

http://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/health-and-fitness/23178-fdas-comparison-of-radiation-in-milk-to-everyday-exposures-called-improper.html

Noddy
04-04-2011, 05:20 PM
Here's a web cam positioned on top of the hill in the center of Fukushima. It's a big city! It's 45 miles from the Daiichi Plant. The web cam is live and you can see cars on the roads. You might have to allow the Windows Add On temporarily.

http://www.nttfukushima.com/live/shinobu/Default.html

essies
04-04-2011, 05:21 PM
Rush to get rid of radioactive water at Japanese nuclear plant: 11,500 tons of radioactive water will be dumped into the Pacific Ocean
snip-

Mon, 04 Apr 2011
Tokyo -- The dumping of tons of radioactive water from a waste treatment facility at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear facility into the ocean has started, Tokyo Electric Power Company officials said Monday. The additional dumping of water from reactors Nos. 5 and 6 will begin within hours, they said.

In all, about 11,500 tons of radioactive water that has collected at the nuclear facility will be dumped into the Pacific Ocean, officials said Monday, as workers also try to deal with a crack that has been a conduit for contamination.

The radiation levels were highest in the water from reactor No. 6, the officials said.

http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Asia/Story/A1Story20110404-271670.html

peeples
04-04-2011, 05:24 PM
what are we doing to our environment????

essies
04-04-2011, 05:29 PM
Don't recall seeing this story, maybe I've missed it. The video clip shows the dogs excitement

Rescued drifting dog reunited with owner

A dog rescued while drifting off the tsunami-stricken coast of Miyagi has been reunited with its owner more than 3 weeks after the disaster.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/04_23.html
Thank God we can pause for some good news!!!:fence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePdWLV3jzqA

Quiche
04-04-2011, 06:04 PM
what are we doing to our environment????

It's such an irony to be watching the Eagle Cam at the same time as reading about this disaster. It doesn't escape me that the nest location is not even immune to the fallout. :(

eta: http://www.raptorresource.org/falcon_cams/index.html

buffetoflies
04-04-2011, 06:53 PM
I don't know how many of ya'll here listen to hard rock, but there is a song called 'help is on the way,' by Rise Against that has been getting heavy play the last month or so. The band wrote it about Hurricane Katrina, and about the BP oil spill, but when I hear it, some of the lines make me think of the situation in Japan.

http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858857766/

The song is long so here are the lines/verses I feel apply to Japan:

Can nobody save us?
Will anyone try?
pyre is burning
The severance is tight

This verse b/c relief workers are scared of the burning hot cores of the nuclear reactors so they aren't sending people over to help. I heard that after mid april the US is pulling out people.

five thousand feet below
as black smoke engulfs the sky
the ocean floor explodes
11 mothers cry

These two lines because the fault line for the earthquake is at the floor of the ocean, and it 'explodes' when the earth starts to quake.

My bones are resining
a burning lullaby
you can't take that from me
just go ahead and try

This verse because the people of Japan are proud and it is thought that a lot of Japanese won't leave, that will stay and face whatever is to come.

we were told, just to sit tight

There were told to stay inside to keep away from the radiation, that everything is just fine, but it clearly isn't and I feel the people that were in the optional 30km zone will die from staying so close.

Help is on the way
They never came
They never came

Not as much is coming b/c of the reactors, and if (when) the reactors completely meltdown everyone will abandon ship, sorry to say.

Thought I'd share.

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 07:04 PM
Rise Against - Help Is On The Way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHiqGqoIGII&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_284098

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 07:14 PM
Thank you "Buffetoflies".

(What a name in times like these, btw, lol). :)

mysticrose
04-04-2011, 07:17 PM
Scientists eye algae for nuclear cleanup
Published: April 4, 2011 at 6:36 PM



Read more: http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2011/04/04/Scientists-eye-algae-for-nuclear-cleanup/UPI-45951301956566/#ixzz1IbDjIDxb

mysticrose
04-04-2011, 07:23 PM
Japanese Officials Call On Russia To Help Contain Radiation Leakage


SNIPPED...........................

Experts say it could take hundreds of thousands of years for the waste to dissolve in the ocean

http://www.talkradionews.com/quicknews/2011/4/4/japanese-officials-call-on-russia-to-help-contain-radiation.html

mysticrose
04-04-2011, 07:24 PM
Radiation found in San Francisco, CA tap water


University of Berkley in California reports that rainwater in San Francisco water has now been detected at levels 18,100% above federal drinking water standards.


This comes despite countless reassurances that no harmful levels of radiation from the Japan nuclear fallout would hit the U.S. from the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency). infowars.com


Again, with just about all other news of the radiation hitting the U.S., the news is once again reported to the public over a week after it was first detected. infowars.com

http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/173052.html

peeples
04-04-2011, 07:47 PM
They have lied are lying and will continue to lie as long as they think they can get away with it :(

nomad
04-04-2011, 07:59 PM
and we cannot do a thing about it:maddening:

cinsbythesea
04-04-2011, 08:07 PM
what are we doing to our environment????

We were out at the beach in San Francisco this weekend and that's all I could think of - what are we doing to this gorgeous body of water and all of the life forms within it? It makes me almost physically ill to think of them contaminating the ocean. Now I see that they are finding high radiation levels in the rain water we just had recently - you really have to wonder where and how this is all going to end- not just with the environment but all of the inhabitants of the earth. Very very sobering...

hockeymom
04-04-2011, 08:14 PM
We were out at the beach in San Francisco this weekend and that's all I could think of - what are we doing to this gorgeous body of water and all of the life forms within it? It makes me almost physically ill to think of them contaminating the ocean. Now I see that they are finding high radiation levels in the rain water we just had recently - you really have to wonder where and how this is all going to end- not just with the environment but all of the inhabitants of the earth. Very very sobering...

And this is just the beginning if they don't get this fixed. I'm still waiting for someone ,anyone to say,what happens if there is a worse case scenario. I feel like things are pretty bad and really would like to be better prepared. Has anyone here had any luck finding anything? Everytime I google it,the only thing I get is,it could be like Chernobyl,but its not that bad. Then they move on not explaining anything. Frankly,I feel as though we are beyond that, at this point,just by the damage we must be doing to the ocean.

Quiche
04-04-2011, 08:39 PM
And this is just the beginning if they don't get this fixed. I'm still waiting for someone ,anyone to say,what happens if there is a worse case scenario. I feel like things are pretty bad and really would like to be better prepared. Has anyone here had any luck finding anything? Everytime I google it,the only thing I get is,it could be like Chernobyl,but its not that bad. Then they move on not explaining anything. Frankly,I feel as though we are beyond that, at this point,just by the damage we must be doing to the ocean.

I'm concerned, now, about numbers 5 and 6... those buildings are intact, can there be another hydrogen explosion in them? They are decommissioned and storing 100-150 tons of spent fuel in each, iirc. Those blasts get into the jet stream/upper atmosphere.

:confused:

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 09:00 PM
It rained here in Mid Michigan all night and then most of the day. And if you would like, you can take this as a sign of paranoia on my part, but the wildlife is acting funny now. The ducks are choosing to rest on people's front yards, far away from the pools of water that they would normally be in or around. Instead, they are just fluffing up their feathers and settling down an abnormal distance from the water, some of them on the concrete sidewalks, which I know isn't normal.

The deer are out in force, but they aren't eating. In fact, I've seen twice as many deer as I would normally see in one night, but instead of having their heads down and grazing, they have their heads up and seem to be sniffing the air, as if that makes sense.

I saw a lot of birds, but they seem afraid to land, and I haven't seen even one bathing in a puddle, even during the warmer part of the day. It was nearly dark, and I didn't see the normal huge flocks that we often see at twilight, they seemed to be flying in smaller groups tonight, and were very quiet.

Call me crazy, I probably am, but I think they know.

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 09:07 PM
Today, EPA released its latest RadNet results, which include the first results for drinking water. Drinking water samples from two locations, Boise, Idaho and Richland, Washington, showed trace amounts of Iodine-131 – about 0.2 picocuries per liter in each case. An infant would have to drink almost 7,000 liters of this water to receive a radiation dose equivalent to a day’s worth of the natural background radiation exposure we experience continuously from natural sources of radioactivity in our environment.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/f118f3b38ec3748d8525786900020035?OpenDocument
Full current EPA statement at link.

Experts warn that small amounts of radioactive particles from Japan's stricken Fukushima nuclear power plant will be blown into the Korean Peninsula around Thursday.
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/04/05/2011040500513.html
Heads up, Korea. Coming at ya.

The Washington Department of Health took readings over the weekend of air in Washington, and scientists said they found no radioactive iodine or cesium in our atmosphere.
Health department officials said that while radioactive iodine and cesium was detected, trace amounts could be found later.
http://www.kirotv.com/news/27428983/detail.html
That's a bit wishy-washy, if you ask me.

Continued monitoring indicates the island's air and water is safe, that's the word out of Guam Homeland Security and Civil Defense. Since sensors were installed last month to monitor radiation the levels the results continue to fall within normal levels.
http://www.kuam.com/story/14382046/2011/04/04/reports-note-guam-safe-from-radiation
When I was a kid I used to joke that I was moving away to Guam...maybe I should.

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 09:15 PM
The Japanese government neither consulted nor informed its closest neighbor Korea on Monday when it announced a plan to discharge 11,500 tons of contaminated water from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant into the sea.

Tokyo decided to discharge contaminated water with more than 100 times the legal limit of radiation, but even senior Korean government officials had to find out about it through media reports.
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/04/05/2011040500500.html
That's just not right.

The release of radioactive water is a growing threat to Japan's immediate marine environment, where local seaweed and shellfish in particular can absorb radiation and introduce it into the food chain. But unless far greater quantities are released over the very long term, the danger is likely to be low and mainly confined to the area near the leak, marine experts say.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704587004576242950653122000.html
Please define "very long term." Because in terms of nuclear disasters, this has been very long term already, imo.

Tokyo Electric Power Co Ltd (TEPCO) plans to start paying compensation to those who had to evacuate or suffered other losses due to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant accident before damages have been assessed, the Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper said Tuesday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/04/us-japan-quake-compensation-idUSTRE7336QV20110404
Wow, that actually resembles some responsibility on Tepco's part. I'm shocked.

essies
04-04-2011, 09:24 PM
Radioactive Water Leaking...7000 Tons Per Hour from Reactor 2, Mark Willacy Reported 4/4/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOovoyME2Qo

OneLove
04-04-2011, 09:38 PM
Thanks again to everyone posting links to current news.

I am really torn about posting what the ex nuclear engineer told us last week about worse case scenario details. Keep in mind that we do not even know if he was credible. And I know and respect Websleuths position on rumors!! Ha!

I wish we had a private thread; I can only post now from a phone and don't have the options available to pm individuals or I would do that.

If I did repeat what he told us, is there a way we can get confirmation from a "credible" person on whether this is possible or not?

Such a sad sad state, but again, don't get pulled down in the undertow. This is an opportunity to seriously consider some of the most recent research that says people can affect outcomes by unity of intentions and also the very hopeful research that shows the ability of thought to affect DNA. This may be part of our future solution, after putting a stop globally to nuclear energy and weapons and all manner of actions that are killing our earth.

So what are your thoughts about whether I should discuss here what we were told about worse case scenario? Soooo torn.

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 09:45 PM
Thanks again to everyone posting links to current news.

I am really torn about posting what the ex nuclear engineer told us last week about worse case scenario details. Keep in mind that we do not even know if he was credible. And I know and respect Websleuths position on rumors!! Ha!

I wish we had a private thread; I can only post now from a phone and don't have the options available to pm individuals or I would do that.

If I did repeat what he told us, is there a way we can get confirmation from a "credible" person on whether this is possible or not?

Such a sad sad state, but again, don't get pulled down in the undertow. This is an opportunity to seriously consider some of the most recent research that says people can affect outcomes by unity of intentions and also the very hopeful research that shows the ability of thought to affect DNA. This may be part of our future solution, after putting a stop globally to nuclear energy and weapons and all manner of actions that are killing our earth.

So what are your thoughts about whether I should discuss here what we were told about worse case scenario? Soooo torn.

I'd just state it, at this point, I think WS's has very few true verified experts on nuclear technology, and with the differing accounts and statements in the media, and because this crisis is out of control on a large scale with the outcome pretty much unforeseen, everything is rumor and conjecture, at this point,. My post above regarding the wildlife in my area is nothing but personal observation, so I don't see why your observations and the acknowledgement of someone else's opinion would be against the rules. We are all just stating our opinions on what we think could happen here, and that includes the experts. You should be fine, just out with it. :) We can take it. Most of us probably already know.

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 09:49 PM
NMK,
FWIW, I agree.

Out with it, lol.

Quiche
04-04-2011, 09:50 PM
If his scenario involves recognizable science as it applies to this disaster, then I'd go ahead and state the opinion. jMo

dsntslp
04-04-2011, 09:52 PM
It's like I said before, back when this first started...

The imagined problem can be worse than the actual problem.
The governments are doing a disservice to the people by not providing facts.

How many times have we hidden things from small children and they imagine the worst? Worse than the truth?

It CAN be that bad this time? Maybe. Maybe it can or maybe it is.

peeples
04-04-2011, 09:56 PM
I can take it, i'm sure others can as well...
I already believe that in 2 or 3 generations just from the exposure we've had already that we're looking at massive birth defects not in just in our wildlife..but in humans as well..
Higher cancers.. I think the radiation and chemicals will just continue to circulate around and around our planet even once the plant is entombed. What has happened will continue to happen forever.
MOO and all that good stuff

essies
04-04-2011, 09:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COZ5L7aeEBE
Nightline / The Nukes Next Door From: ABCNews |

Mar 29, 2011 "Nightline" looks at the safety records of American nuclear plants.

Peliman
04-04-2011, 10:13 PM
Radiation found in San Francisco, CA tap water


University of Berkley in California reports that rainwater in San Francisco water has now been detected at levels 18,100% above federal drinking water standards.


This comes despite countless reassurances that no harmful levels of radiation from the Japan nuclear fallout would hit the U.S. from the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency). infowars.com


Again, with just about all other news of the radiation hitting the U.S., the news is once again reported to the public over a week after it was first detected. infowars.com

http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/173052.html

I'd like to have some independent verification from a US agency about these reported levels. This report is coming from Iran tv and it wouldn't surprise me if this wasn't a disinformation campaign of some type. I'd like to know alot more before considering a report from a government run tv network from Tehran. Just think it's good to be a little cautious is all.

not_my_kids
04-04-2011, 10:22 PM
I know no one asked for it, but I'll give my totally uneducated worst case scenario outlook on the whole disaster:
Not the end of the world, but the end of our lives as we recognize them. Let's say that all 6 reactors go into full meltdown, all at once, possibly triggered by an explosion in reactor 5 or 6. I do believe that a release of that magnitude, all shooting up into the air would circle the globe. There would be places that would be largely unaffected, but even for them, because of the damage to the rest of the world, their lives would not be the same as they are now.

I do believe that air travel would become very limited, mainly military for the first few years. Driving would be allowed, but I do think that cross country travel would be restricted by contamination "zones". Rest stops are the norm now, decon centers would become the norm. Our economy, globally, would falter, as transportation would take longer and would be more carefully controlled. I wouldn't be surprised to see heavy rationing of fuel and food, even water. No more washing the car or watering the lawn.

The economy would also suffer as our lives become less convenience based and more survival based. Scientific advancements would be focused more on medicine and construction, less on the next video game system. Due to massive amounts of damage done to the climate, I believe there would be extremely strict "green" guidelines for every household, company and person in order to reduce further impact.

Many of the things that we are used to seeing would change dramatically, including animal and human forms, and it wouldn't be as much of a tragedy to hear that someone has cancer, as we will become desensitized to it. Those with money will get better and be cured, those without will die quickly, and I believe that the sanatoriums would return, not for TB, but for cancer, as the hospitals would be overwhelmed.

Mnay of the things that we take for granted would become rare delicacies, such as food that weren't canned, grown inside or completely man made. The days of futuristic meals in a capsule would become reality. Fishing and hunting would become largely unsafe, except in the unaffected areas.

Internationally, we would all become secluded, because if we have food or other technologies, we would keep it for our own. And I would feel for any Japanese that were stuck outside of their own country when it finally happened, because, even though this was a company's fault, many will see them as the enemy.

ETA: Then again, what do I know? I only started really learning about any of this a month ago, and I've always been a bit of a pessimist.

Quiche
04-04-2011, 10:30 PM
I'd like to have some independent verification from a US agency about these reported levels. This report is coming from Iran tv and it wouldn't surprise me if this wasn't a disinformation campaign of some type. I'd like to know alot more before considering a report from a government run tv network from Tehran. Just think it's good to be a little cautious is all.

Here's a link from this morning, Peli-- it's a bay area organization that gives the same stats.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Japan: 9.0 Earthquake-Tsunami-Nuclear Reactor Status #5

Quiche
04-04-2011, 10:44 PM
I know no one asked for it, but I'll give my totally uneducated worst case scenario outlook on the whole disaster:
Not the end of the world, but the end of our lives as we recognize them. Let's say that all 6 reactors go into full meltdown, all at once, possibly triggered by an explosion in reactor 5 or 6. I do believe that a release of that magnitude, all shooting up into the air would circle the globe. There would be places that would be largely unaffected, but even for them, because of the damage to the rest of the world, their lives would not be the same as they are now.

I do believe that air travel would become very limited, mainly military for the first few years. Driving would be allowed, but I do think that cross country travel would be restricted by contamination "zones". Rest stops are the norm now, decon centers would become the norm. Our economy, globally, would falter, as transportation would take longer and would be more carefully controlled. I wouldn't be surprised to see heavy rationing of fuel and food, even water. No more washing the car or watering the lawn.

The economy would also suffer as our lives become less convenience based and more survival based. Scientific advancements would be focused more on medicine and construction, less on the next video game system. Due to massive amounts of damage done to the climate, I believe there would be extremely strict "green" guidelines for every household, company and person in order to reduce further impact.

Many of the things that we are used to seeing would change dramatically, including animal and human forms, and it wouldn't be as much of a tragedy to hear that someone has cancer, as we will become desensitized to it. Those with money will get better and be cured, those without will die quickly, and I believe that the sanatoriums would return, not for TB, but for cancer, as the hospitals would be overwhelmed.

Mnay of the things that we take for granted would become rare delicacies, such as food that weren't canned, grown inside or completely man made. The days of futuristic meals in a capsule would become reality. Fishing and hunting would become largely unsafe, except in the unaffected areas.

Internationally, we would all become secluded, because if we have food or other technologies, we would keep it for our own. And I would feel for any Japanese that were stuck outside of their own country when it finally happened, because, even though this was a company's fault, many will see them as the enemy.

ETA: Then again, what do I know? I only started really learning about any of this a month ago, and I've always been a bit of a pessimist.

I guess I'm a little more optimistic. :innocent:

OneLove
04-04-2011, 10:48 PM
Well, our "nutty scientist" didn't carry his scenario out that far in time, but all that sounds possible.

He told us that the very point of using nuclear Energy is that it magnifies and increases the heat exponentially. His worst case scenario involved an out of control reaction creating a burst of unimaginable searing heat that would "obliterate all of Japan". When I asked if he meant that literally, he said yes. So I asked how large a radius that could include and he said several thousand miles because we have placed nuclear plants within such close range of each other.

That leaves me with huge questions about the impact of that much heat release into the planetary atmosphere. How would this affect the waters of the earth? Would we be able to grow food?

Of course, he could simply be a madman. I wish a nuclear expert would weigh in on this.

I have noticed in some of the mass media reports, they have said massive explosion is unlikely, which would technically be true if it is actually an enormous burst of unimaginable heat. I also noted one report did say "generation of heat in an uncontrolled process", haha, it just didn't say how MUCH heat and how FAR it would spread. Would reaaaally like to know those answers.

Quiche
04-04-2011, 10:59 PM
Well, our "nutty scientist" didn't carry his scenario out that far in time, but all that sounds possible.

He told us that the very point of using nuclear Energy is that it magnifies and increases the heat exponentially. His worst case scenario involved an out of control reaction creating a burst of unimaginable searing heat that would "obliterate all of Japan". When I asked if he meant that literally, he said yes. So I asked how large a radius that could include and he said several thousand miles because we have placed nuclear plants within such close range of each other.

That leaves me with huge questions about the impact of that much heat release into the planetary atmosphere. How would this affect the waters of the earth? Would we be able to grow food?

Of course, he could simply be a madman. I wish a nuclear expert would weigh in on this.

I have noticed in some of the mass media reports, they have said massive explosion is unlikely, which would technically be true if it is actually an enormous burst of unimaginable heat. I also noted one report did say "generation of heat in an uncontrolled process", haha, it just didn't say how MUCH heat and how FAR it would spread. Would reaaaally like to know those answers.

Thanks for sharing this-- I know you were hesitant. I'm not certain about his theory, but I'll be looking into the possibility of anything like this tomorrow. Right off hand, I'm thinking no chance, but... ?

Peliman
04-04-2011, 11:17 PM
Here's a link from this morning, Peli-- it's a bay area organization that gives the same stats.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Japan: 9.0 Earthquake-Tsunami-Nuclear Reactor Status #5 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6288092&postcount=137)

I'm taking my socks off to count. I think some things are being exaggerated here. Looking at the chart from bay citizen this spike was one day and it appears the background baseline I'm assuming is normal everyday background is 4 or 5 becquerels per liter, according to the chart.

Now if the federal maximum level of iodine-131 allowed in drinking water is 0.111 becquerels per liter. Then the federal standards are exceeded in normal everyday background readings, used as a baseline.

Yes, I agree we need accuate readings minus with and without the already established base lines.

http://www.baycitizen.org/japan-disaster/story/government-under-fire-radiation-milk/2/

Reality Orlando
04-04-2011, 11:21 PM
I"m talking to a friend in the Marine's who is stationed in Sasebo Japan "doing IT type stuff on a ship out of here." He says no one is really worried about radiation over there where he is.

ScorpRising
04-04-2011, 11:27 PM
Well, our "nutty scientist" didn't carry his scenario out that far in time, but all that sounds possible.

He told us that the very point of using nuclear Energy is that it magnifies and increases the heat exponentially. His worst case scenario involved an out of control reaction creating a burst of unimaginable searing heat that would "obliterate all of Japan". When I asked if he meant that literally, he said yes. So I asked how large a radius that could include and he said several thousand miles because we have placed nuclear plants within such close range of each other.

That leaves me with huge questions about the impact of that much heat release into the planetary atmosphere. How would this affect the waters of the earth? Would we be able to grow food?

Of course, he could simply be a madman. I wish a nuclear expert would weigh in on this.

I have noticed in some of the mass media reports, they have said massive explosion is unlikely, which would technically be true if it is actually an enormous burst of unimaginable heat. I also noted one report did say "generation of heat in an uncontrolled process", haha, it just didn't say how MUCH heat and how FAR it would spread. Would reaaaally like to know those answers.

Thank you for sharing.

My usual disclosure... I am not an expert:

Yes, the amount of heat that can be generated is immense. That is a known fact. There is a sign hanging on a bulletin board at work that shows the conversion of tons of coal and other fuels used to generate power to a small piece of nuclear fuel. I will type in the conversions rather than take a pic as I don't want the company name to appear here.

Thinking about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the heat from the bombs was immense based on the reports I read.

As far as obliterating all of Japan, I have no idea, but don't believe it is impossible. I don't think an out of control reaction would trigger additional reactions at nuclear plants around the globe. Thinking selfishly for a moment, Japan is an island nation, all of their reactors may blow up but I don't see the blast reaching the US. Radiation, well, we already know that answer. How it will affect the environment long term? I have no answer.

Japan seems to have no restrictions on the number of reactors at one location... They were planning on building 2 more at Fukishima Dai-ichi? Really? And there are 4 more reactors a few km away... Sigh :sick:

My thoughts are my own...

not_my_kids
04-05-2011, 06:58 AM
Whatever happened to Danai? The other plant that was having problems as well? We heard about it for a couple weeks off and on and then nothing. Is it completely under control or just being overshadowed by the Diachi problems?

not_my_kids
04-05-2011, 07:17 AM
TOKYO police on Tuesday arrested two people for selling a drug they claimed would protect people from the radiation leaking from Japan's stricken nuclear plant.

The pair, a 50-year-old health food trader and his 29-year-old assistant, were charged with the unlicensed sale of a medicine, a spokesman for the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department said.
~snip~
he two allegedly sold 10 bottles of the drug to three people between Feb 17 and March 29 for a total of 47,500 yen (S$712), the spokesman said.
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_653205.html
This just makes me sick...but then again, how many are doing the same on eBay with KI pills?

Shares in the operator of Japan's crippled nuclear plant plunged to a new low Tuesday after Tokyo Electric Power Co. started pumping radioactive water into the sea as part of emergency operations.

Shares in TEPCO, which has lost more than 80 percent of its value since the quake, closed at 362 yen -- their lowest ever level -- amid concerns the embattled company will face huge compensation bills.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/1120835/1/.html
Once the dust settles (har de har har) it doesn't seem there will be a TEPCO.


Seoul objected to Japan’s discharge of some 11,500 tons of highly radioactive contaminated water into the ocean Monday amid fears that so much radioactive water could endanger marine life and contaminate the human food chain.

The South Korean Foreign Ministry said it expressed concerns through its embassy in Japan that unleashing the contaminated water with radiation levels 100 times higher than the legally permitted level could infringe on international law and inquired about Tokyo’s next steps.

The Japanese foreign ministry replied that it will leak the contaminated water in small amounts over five days and measure the radiation levels in nearby waters as it continues to discharge. Tokyo also said it will reconsider the discharge once the detected levels exceed the legally permitted amount and look into whether it is against international law, according to Seoul officials.
http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110405000816
BBM. I thought they already were?

Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) said Tuesday that it had detected radioactive seawater in the Pacific Ocean with a concentration of radioactive iodine many million times the legal limit.
The operator of the striken Fukushima Daiichi (No.1) nuclear power plant said that samples taken from seawater near one of the reactors contained 7.5 million times the legal limit for radioactive iodine on April 2.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-04/05/c_13814140.htm
Isn't that enough to make them reconsider, or is it not illegally high enough?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/8426171/A-tearful-sayonara-to-quake-hit-Japan.html
This one is written by someone that made it out of Japan, and it catalogues their fear after the quake and after the news of the problems at Daiichi broke.

Peliman
04-05-2011, 07:18 AM
TEPCO starts injecting agent to stop leakage

The operator of the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear plant has injected a hardening agent beneath a leaking concrete pit in a bid to stem the flow of highly radioactive water into the sea.

Tokyo Electric Power Company started infusing liquid glass into gravel below the pit near the Number 2 reactor at 3 PM on Tuesday.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/05_32.html

I think they're using fiberglass.

not_my_kids
04-05-2011, 07:21 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/japans-government-announces-new-safety-standard-for-radiation-allowed-in-fish/2011/04/05/AF3EdvhC_story.html
Sorry Just link. It is one sentence and says that I can't rewrite, distribute, publish or broadcast this information. So, I'm not. I am however sharing the link only with an online community...if that is still within my rights...

not_my_kids
04-05-2011, 07:23 AM
The Japanese government is reportedly considering a ban on shipments of certain seafood products following the discovery of a radioactive iodine in fish caught off Kitaibaraki, Ibaraki Prefecture, south of Fukushima.

High levels of radioactive iodine have been found in young launce caught off Kitaibaraki, Ibaraki Prefecture, prompting the Health Ministry to advise that it not be consumed. Different young launce also caught near Kitaibaraki was also contaminated with 526 bequerels per kilogram of radioactive cesium, exceeding the legal limit of 500 bequerels, a local fishery cooperative told local media Tuesday.

The cooperative is reportedly planning to ban fishing of young launce in all of Ibaraki Prefecture.
http://www.panorientnews.com/en/news.php?k=908

Verity
04-05-2011, 07:40 AM
I'd like to have some independent verification from a US agency about these reported levels. This report is coming from Iran tv and it wouldn't surprise me if this wasn't a disinformation campaign of some type. I'd like to know alot more before considering a report from a government run tv network from Tehran. Just think it's good to be a little cautious is all.


I think this is the same report: http://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-rainwater-radiation-181-times-above-us-drinking-water-standard-2011-4

Peliman
04-05-2011, 07:50 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/japans-government-announces-new-safety-standard-for-radiation-allowed-in-fish/2011/04/05/AF3EdvhC_story.html
Sorry Just link. It is one sentence and says that I can't rewrite, distribute, publish or broadcast this information. So, I'm not. I am however sharing the link only with an online community...if that is still within my rights...

Another new safety standard for fish eh, maybe we should do this for mercury too. Think it's time to start tracking old standards vs. new standards.

Peliman
04-05-2011, 07:54 AM
Catch em fast, I just caught a report I read earlier missing from the news site I'm using now. Here's a new story.

______________________________________
Plant radiation monitor says levels immeasurable

A radiation monitor at the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says workers there are exposed to immeasurable levels of radiation.

The monitor told NHK that no one can enter the plant's No. 1 through 3 reactor buildings because radiation levels are so high that monitoring devices have been rendered useless. He said even levels outside the buildings exceed 100 millisieverts in some places.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/05_27.html
_______________________________________

essies
04-05-2011, 07:56 AM
Is Dumping Tons Of Radioactive Material Into The Ocean Really The Best Idea?
April 04, 2011 CNN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5lq4qljRvk

Peliman
04-05-2011, 08:05 AM
Leak at Fukushima appears to be lessening

The operator of the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear plant has injected a hardening agent beneath a leaking concrete pit in a bid to stem the flow of highly radioactive water into the sea.

The firm says the leakage seems to be decreasing, following the infusion of the hardening agent.

The utility showed reporters a photo of the leak on Tuesday evening, saying it indicates such a decrease.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/05_h32.html

Penelope
04-05-2011, 08:13 AM
The horror is continuing with a new story this morning....

Radiation in Water Rushing into Sea Tests Millions of Times Over Limit
(http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/05/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html)
Tokyo (CNN) -- Japanese utility and government authorities suffered fresh setbacks Tuesday with the detection of radiation in a fish and news that water gushing from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant into the Pacific had radiation levels more than millions of times above the regulatory limit.

not_my_kids
04-05-2011, 08:17 AM
Leak at Fukushima appears to be lessening

The operator of the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear plant has injected a hardening agent beneath a leaking concrete pit in a bid to stem the flow of highly radioactive water into the sea.

The firm says the leakage seems to be decreasing, following the infusion of the hardening agent.

The utility showed reporters a photo of the leak on Tuesday evening, saying it indicates such a decrease.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/05_h32.html

That's good at least. But there is the problem that glass is corroded by cesium, which is present in that water. What happens if their quick fix gets eaten right back through?

Peliman
04-05-2011, 08:33 AM
That's good at least. But there is the problem that glass is corroded by cesium, which is present in that water. What happens if their quick fix gets eaten right back through?

I don't know to be honest and I am certified in fiberglass. I don't think it will be eaten through but I do worry about it setting up and sticking to surfaces and what materials they're using. I'm not even sure it can set/harden in water. We were meticulous about not allowing water into manufacture or repair orders. Surface preparation was always extremely important while working with fiberglass.

Another thing, they have not mentioned fiberglass per say, the mention resin and glass in comments from various stories. My interest has been peaked since they mentioned they were going to use a resin on the ground around the plant itself. I began wondering if they were going to use a catalyst which is required for resin to harden. They are being vague with their resin/glass comments.

hollyblue
04-05-2011, 08:40 AM
Well, our "nutty scientist" didn't carry his scenario out that far in time, but all that sounds possible.

He told us that the very point of using nuclear Energy is that it magnifies and increases the heat exponentially. His worst case scenario involved an out of control reaction creating a burst of unimaginable searing heat that would "obliterate all of Japan". When I asked if he meant that literally, he said yes. So I asked how large a radius that could include and he said several thousand miles because we have placed nuclear plants within such close range of each other.

That leaves me with huge questions about the impact of that much heat release into the planetary atmosphere. How would this affect the waters of the earth? Would we be able to grow food?

Of course, he could simply be a madman. I wish a nuclear expert would weigh in on this.

I have noticed in some of the mass media reports, they have said massive explosion is unlikely, which would technically be true if it is actually an enormous burst of unimaginable heat. I also noted one report did say "generation of heat in an uncontrolled process", haha, it just didn't say how MUCH heat and how FAR it would spread. Would reaaaally like to know those answers.

Well, Chernobyl exploded...sending the contents of it's core scattered over everywhere. So I think you have something to compare in that...and of course that is only 1 reactor. Personally, and I am no nuclear engineer nor did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, but I think "they" have it pretty much in control...temperature wise by the constant influx of water. What bothers me is the constant release of contamination...be it how slowly (reportedly). That spraying and dumping water may have further damaged the rods in the fuel pools...so more contamination...let alone if the reactor itself has been breeched. Remember there are more rods in the fuel pools than the reactors themselves. I want to know more about neutron beams...and just what is going on there. Seems that one of the reactors doing this is still "reacting"....but how? I have concerns about the seepage in the soil...more so if a meltdown does occur. I know they said a wall of silt has been built be prevent contamination further into the ocean, but if you have seepage from underground...how is that helping....and why build the barrier of silt if your only going to dump thousands of tons of contaminated water into the ocean aftewards? ???? Even if they pump underground water out...there still is the remains in the ground itself and it's still in the process of decaying....radiating. Even if it's sealed and entombed. imo. ??

hollyblue
04-05-2011, 09:26 AM
I don't know to be honest and I am certified in fiberglass. I don't think it will be eaten through but I do worry about it setting up and sticking to surfaces and what materials they're using. I'm not even sure it can set/harden in water. We were meticulous about not allowing water into manufacture or repair orders. Surface preparation was always extremely important while working with fiberglass.

Another thing, they have not mentioned fiberglass per say, the mention resin and glass in comments from various stories. My interest has been peaked since they mentioned they were going to use a resin on the ground around the plant itself. I began wondering if they were going to use a catalyst which is required for resin to harden. They are being vague with their resin/glass comments.

The demineralization process which can be used rather than the evaporation is done with ion exchange resins. I don't know what it contains, but boron would be one, I'd think. Dow site mentions TheStyrene-DVB, Gel. Here are a few links:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yugQKddO82IC&pg=PA660&lpg=PA660&dq=ions,+demineralization,+nuclear&source=bl&ots=ewmY3Puu-a&sig=3JMgOmt8RFiLZSHwatFksvN-ia4&hl=en&ei=WRabTZiSEo26sAO395CKBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.dowwaterandprocess.com/products/mixed.htm

ScorpRising
04-05-2011, 09:34 AM
Whatever happened to Danai? The other plant that was having problems as well? We heard about it for a couple weeks off and on and then nothing. Is it completely under control or just being overshadowed by the Diachi problems?

http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/4283747180/3-week-update-on-japans-nuclear-crisis#


Currently, all the reactors at Fukushima Daini have reached cold shutdown, meaning the water in the reactors is below boiling temperature and should remain that way as long as nothing disrupts the cooling. There have been no reported problems with the spent-fuel pools at this site.


I'm not familiar with this site. Has anyone else been here? Are they truthful?

hollyblue
04-05-2011, 09:38 AM
The horror is continuing with a new story this morning....

Radiation in Water Rushing into Sea Tests Millions of Times Over Limit
(http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/05/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html)

I found this story of a man who owned a boat and took off out to sea after the earthquake, but before the tsunami hit. What a ride he must have had.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/03/japan.tsunami.captain/index.html

ScorpRising
04-05-2011, 09:52 AM
As promised last night... I tried to scan so I could cut off the compnay name but it came out too dark due to the protruding pellet.


One nuclear fuel pellet (half inch by three quarters of an inch) is approximately equal to

1 ton of coal
3 barrels of oil (126 gallon)
17,000 cubic feet of natural gas
1 ton of wood

"Using pellets like this, a modern nuclear power plan can produce enough electricity for 765,000 homes and SAVE OUT NATION ALMOST 10 MILLION BARRELS OF OIL EACH YEAR."

Quiche
04-05-2011, 10:07 AM
The water issue makes no sense to me at all. If they continue to spray the reactors, there will be radioactive water that needs to be stored. At this point, I assume they intend to empty it all into the ocean-- perhaps, by way of their "storage", but still ending up in the Pacific. Millions of times higher than is safe, incalculable. :mad:

Daisyjane
04-05-2011, 11:05 AM
Here's my question: A few days ago, the figure was '7 tons per hour' of the highly radioactive water leaking. That's only 168 tons per day. So HOW did it get up to 60,000 in just a few days? My math says it should take about 357 days to accumulate 60,000. Anyone else think this math is way too fuzzy?

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/83291.html

A total of 60,000 tons of radioactive water is believed to be flooding the basement of reactor buildings and underground trenches connected to them at the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear plant, the industry minister said Tuesday, adding that its operator will later remove the liquid obstructing recovery work.

In a new finding, TEPCO said Tuesday a seawater sample taken Saturday near the No. 2 reactor's water intake showed the iodine-131 concentration at 7.5 million times the maximum allowable level under law. To halt the flow of radioactive water, the operator injected ''water glass,'' or sodium silicate, shortly after 3 p.m. Tuesday into graveled areas beneath the pit's bottom, where radioactive water is believed to be seeping through.

not_my_kids
04-05-2011, 11:36 AM
Here's my question: A few days ago, the figure was '7 tons per hour' of the highly radioactive water leaking. That's only 168 tons per day. So HOW did it get up to 60,000 in just a few days? My math says it should take about 357 days to accumulate 60,000. Anyone else think this math is way too fuzzy?

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/83291.html

A total of 60,000 tons of radioactive water is believed to be flooding the basement of reactor buildings and underground trenches connected to them at the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear plant, the industry minister said Tuesday, adding that its operator will later remove the liquid obstructing recovery work.

In a new finding, TEPCO said Tuesday a seawater sample taken Saturday near the No. 2 reactor's water intake showed the iodine-131 concentration at 7.5 million times the maximum allowable level under law. To halt the flow of radioactive water, the operator injected ''water glass,'' or sodium silicate, shortly after 3 p.m. Tuesday into graveled areas beneath the pit's bottom, where radioactive water is believed to be seeping through.

Maybe a discrepancy in how much is leaking and being stored and how much is leaking out?

hockeymom
04-05-2011, 12:05 PM
Over the last few weeks we seem to come up with the same conclusions,either someone is lying or someone doesn't have a clue as to what to do. I fear its a combination of both.
This is uncharted territory. This so much reminds me of the oil spill,but with much deadlier consequences.

Peliman
04-05-2011, 12:10 PM
The demineralization process which can be used rather than the evaporation is done with ion exchange resins. I don't know what it contains, but boron would be one, I'd think. Dow site mentions TheStyrene-DVB, Gel. Here are a few links:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yugQKddO82IC&pg=PA660&lpg=PA660&dq=ions,+demineralization,+nuclear&source=bl&ots=ewmY3Puu-a&sig=3JMgOmt8RFiLZSHwatFksvN-ia4&hl=en&ei=WRabTZiSEo26sAO395CKBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.dowwaterandprocess.com/products/mixed.htm

Well some things I can tell, others things I have no idea. I know alot of resins used in pellet form are used for water purification. Water softner tanks(not all) use a resin pellet that attracts the hardness in water whichs needs released and flushed on timed cycles depending on the hardness in the water.

Another type of resin pellet is used to remove iron and sulphur from water, a type of demineralization if you will. So if someone has hardness and iron or sulphur, ideally they need two types of water conditioning equipment which has reusable resins. Neither of which could seal a leak they're trying to solve.

The absorbents maybe able to absorb 50 times their weight but then what?

Gels, well I'm just unclear here. I would think anything they used in the leak would need to set/harden or it would either wash away or not seal properly. on the other hand it's no telling what some chemist can come up with.

It's their terminology that leads me to believe they're using fiberglass but their wording is vague and not specific sooo JMO

Ooooh OT but distilled water which is extremely clean test around 5.2PH which is highly acidic for water. This led me to question the term acid rain, rain being virtually clean before it hits the ground and is acidic. (If I remember right)

Peliman
04-05-2011, 12:19 PM
In a new finding, TEPCO said Tuesday a seawater sample taken Saturday near the No. 2 reactor's water intake showed the iodine-131 concentration at 7.5 million times the maximum allowable level under law. To halt the flow of radioactive water, the operator injected ''water glass,'' or sodium silicate, shortly after 3 p.m. Tuesday into graveled areas beneath the pit's bottom, where radioactive water is believed to be seeping through.

Thanks, someone smarter than I is using this to plug the hole.


Properties: Sodium silicate is a white powder that is readily soluble in water, producing an alkaline solution. It is one of a number of related compounds which include sodium orthosilicate, Na4SiO4, sodium pyrosilicate, Na6Si2O7, and others. All are glassy, colourless and dissolve in water.

Sodium silicate is stable in neutral and alkaline solutions. In acidic solutions, the silicate ion reacts with hydrogen ions to form silicic acid, which when heated and roasted forms silica gel, a hard, glassy substance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_silicate#Properties

hockeymom
04-05-2011, 12:22 PM
Have I told you people how brilliant you all are? I can't add much to the discussion as I'm scientifically handicapped and frankly don't understand alot of what you all are saying,but I'm amazed everyday,at how smart and knowledgable everyone here is.
Thank you!

Peliman
04-05-2011, 12:28 PM
The water issue makes no sense to me at all. If they continue to spray the reactors, there will be radioactive water that needs to be stored. At this point, I assume they intend to empty it all into the ocean-- perhaps, by way of their "storage", but still ending up in the Pacific. Millions of times higher than is safe, incalculable. :mad:

My understanding of what's happening is they are pumping less radioactive water from a waste treatment facility into the sea. Then they intend to fill up the waste treatment plant with the more radioactive water. FWIW

Daisyjane
04-05-2011, 12:35 PM
Have I told you people how brilliant you all are? I can't add much to the discussion as I'm scientifically handicapped and frankly don't understand alot of what you all are saying,but I'm amazed everyday,at how smart and knowledgable everyone here is.
Thank you!

I understand only a small percentage of what I read in the articles. That's why I usually just post a link and a tidbit, then wait for someone more knowledgeable to weigh in.

Daisyjane
04-05-2011, 01:23 PM
A plan to cover damaged reactor buildings at the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear plant with special sheets to halt radiation leakage cannot offer a quick remedy, as the sheeting will be installed in September at the earliest due to high-level radioactivity hampering work at the site, government sources said Tuesday.

They said workers need to wait until radiation levels drop at the site, where hydrogen explosions have blown away the roofs and upper walls of three reactor buildings.

Some nuclear experts have been skeptical about the feasibility of the plan as they believe the step would have only limited effects in blocking the release of radioactive substances into the environment.

In a meeting Tuesday of a team tasked with halting the leakage of radioactive substances from the plant under a task force set up by the government and the operator known as TEPCO, the construction firm gave prospects for the work schedule, the sources said.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/83374.html

not_my_kids
04-05-2011, 02:04 PM
September before they can even get the shields up...What do they plan to do until then?

This worries me because even the scientists that are subscribing to the "everyone remain calm" theories, are saying that the only risk is if the leakage continues long term. Do they consider September at a minimum to be long term?

not_my_kids
04-05-2011, 02:07 PM
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/173273.html


India has banned the import of the Japanese food over fear of radiation contamination following the malfunctioning of the country's tsunami-hit Fukushima power plant.


According to a statement released by the Indian Health Ministry, the country, which has begun testing the Japanese foods shortly after the March 11 disaster, will ban the import of these products for three months, or until research proves their safety, AP reported.

Quiche
04-05-2011, 02:19 PM
My understanding of what's happening is they are pumping less radioactive water from a waste treatment facility into the sea. Then they intend to fill up the waste treatment plant with the more radioactive water. FWIW

Exactly, but then what? There will as much radioactive water produced after they store the first batch. They have to keep cooling the reactors and pools-- this water is coming from tankers off shore-- equals, more water! jmo

Peliman
04-05-2011, 02:39 PM
Exactly, but then what? There will as much radioactive water produced after they store the first batch. They have to keep cooling the reactors and pools-- this water is coming from tankers off shore-- equals, more water! jmo

:) Well let me think and I'll get back to ya! What did they do with it before?

not_my_kids
04-05-2011, 03:20 PM
:) Well let me think and I'll get back to ya! What did they do with it before?

If I'm not mistaken, they stored it on site and then ran out of room.

coastal
04-05-2011, 03:50 PM
If I'm not mistaken, they stored it on site and then ran out of room.
LOL! Thanks for that, not_my_kids. I needed a smile just now!
Thanks to you and ya'll, also, for the news and conversation lately. My RL friends and loved ones think I'm silly to still be worried about radiation in (and from) Japan, so you've been keeping me sane. Grounded, anyway. Sort of.

Mostly.

Quiche
04-05-2011, 04:33 PM
:) Well let me think and I'll get back to ya! What did they do with it before?

I don't think the reactor vessel was cracked before, and of course, they didn't cool things off by fire hose. Shoot, Peli-- we'll just have to wait and see. :crazy:

coastal
04-05-2011, 04:59 PM
http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/story/Seafood-Safe-to-Eat-San-Diego-Seafood-Nuclear/gOIQkg3BHE2Wm77EvOmk_A.cspx

>>>snip

Seafood Safe to Eat? San Diego Seafood Nuclear Fallout Concerns
Last Update: 12:13 pm (today)


...On Monday to make room for severely contaminated water, workers at the Fukushima Nuclear Plant had to release some 11,000 tons of radioactive water into the sea.

"It's a potentially dangerous situation with potential implication for food supplies that have been imported," said Luca Centurioni, Scripps Institution of Oceanography. He says Scientists have yet to determine the exact impact of the released water.

"We need to involve physicists, biologists and geologists so we really need to start studying." said Centurioni...

(article continues)

<<<snip

Ya think?

Quiche
04-05-2011, 05:17 PM
Radioactive Fish and Birds: Dangers from Japan?

Quote: The Pacific currents running along the Japanese coast go north up the Asian coast before turning towards the Bering Sea, and on down through the Gulf of Alaska to the U.S. northwest coast.

and

...At least 404 species of waterbird are recorded in the Asia-Pacific region. Of these, 243 species, by virtue of their nature, undertake annual migrations...

http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/04/radioactive-fish-and-birds-dangers-japan

Daisyjane
04-05-2011, 05:54 PM
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/05_38.html

Plant radiation monitor says levels immeasurable

A radiation monitor at the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says workers there are exposed to immeasurable levels of radiation. The monitor told NHK that no one can enter the plant's No. 1 through 3 reactor buildings because radiation levels are so high that monitoring devices have been rendered useless. He said even levels outside the buildings exceed 100 millisieverts in some places.Pools and streams of water contaminated by high-level radiation are being found throughout the facility. The monitor said he takes measurements as soon as he finds water, because he can't determine whether it's contaminated just by looking at it. He said he's very worried about the safety of workers there.

Daisyjane
04-05-2011, 06:18 PM
Just off the news ticker: TEPCO: The release of of highly radioactive water into the sea has been stopped - Kyodo

http://breakingnews.com

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/83381.html

The outflow of highly radioactive water into the Pacific Ocean from the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has stopped after the injection of a chemical agent, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Wednesday.In a bid to stem the leak, the utility, known as TEPCO, injected 1,500 liters of ''water glass,'' or sodium silicate, and another agent near a seaside pit where the highly radioactive water had been seeping through.

hockeymom
04-05-2011, 06:36 PM
Just off the news ticker: TEPCO: The release of of highly radioactive water into the sea has been stopped - Kyodo

http://breakingnews.com

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/83381.html

The outflow of highly radioactive water into the Pacific Ocean from the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has stopped after the injection of a chemical agent, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Wednesday.In a bid to stem the leak, the utility, known as TEPCO, injected 1,500 liters of ''water glass,'' or sodium silicate, and another agent near a seaside pit where the highly radioactive water had been seeping through.

Wow,this is great news! I hope it holds.