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Cheyenne130
04-19-2011, 10:25 PM
I think Kurtz is a phenomenal attorney. Direct, quick, thorough and as you said fights hard for his client. While his voice is a bit irritating it is much more tolerable that the prosecutor. He puts me to sleep.

You lost me at "quick" in describing Kurtz. He is anything but quick. MOO

CaryFrom NJ
04-19-2011, 10:25 PM
He was definitely a different judge after Kurtz accused him of bias. I was quite surprised.

Yes- I saw the obvious change. Just wish Kurtz would have done this weeks ago. Hoping he will more reasonable throughout the duration of this trial

CaryFrom NJ
04-19-2011, 10:25 PM
You lost me at "quick" in describing Kurtz. He is anything but quick. MOO

In comparison to Cummings I will have to stick with quick

cody100
04-19-2011, 10:26 PM
He was definitely a different judge after Kurtz accused him of bias. I was quite surprised.

Me too. We will see how long it lasts.

Cheyenne130
04-19-2011, 10:26 PM
He was definitely a different judge after Kurtz accused him of bias. I was quite surprised.

Well, we don't know what happened during the questioning of the undercover agent today. We do know that when he questioned JW, the judge was overruling the prosecution. You see it as being after the accusation. I see it as when he started his CIC as we know it. MOO

LyndyLoo
04-19-2011, 10:27 PM
I have never suggested that someone planted anything to place BC in the position he is in now. I do not think anyone in that neighborhood nor in their cirlce of friends has anything at all to do with NC's murder. I truly believe they were just great friends who looked out for one another. We should all be so lucky to have friends like that. But I also know there is a tendency to exaggerate whem amongs friends. I think things were bad between BC and NC, but maybe not as bad as her friends claimed them to be.

That being said, I don't know who killed NC. I still don't know if it was BC or someone else? I am curious to hear the remainder of the trial before I make up my mind

Of course you dont know who did nor apparantly accept Brad could have done this..BUT it is obvious his neighbours or friends didnt spoof computer activities..and SODDI is also not viable given the state of Nancy's body, and the lack of stealing her diamond ear rings..yet due to some dis-beliefs of credibilities in friends of hers that Brad was framed...THAT is what I wonder about?? Stranger didnt do this..only the person who stood to gain by it did..and can you even suggest who could have gained by strangling Nancy and dumping her..and leave expensive earrings on her person?

It really does come down to motive, means and opportunity..nothing more and nothing less.. and BTW I never even suggested you thought that your acquaintance did this..however you certainly dont like this person..that I got

CaryFrom NJ
04-19-2011, 10:27 PM
Watch out, he is a possible murder suspect according to some.
I hear he reads here and could possibly pick out a lady from NJ whose kids played together.:cool:

Just wondering if you are this snarky in person or is it just the persona you use when you hide behind a computer?

I NEVER suggested he is a possible murder suspect. NEVER. And I said "played" together. If you are going to get so literal, get it right.

jrb0124
04-19-2011, 10:27 PM
Watch out, he is a possible murder suspect according to some.
I hear he reads here and could possibly pick out a lady from NJ whose kids played together

I know you mentioned in an earlier post that you wished you could have stood next to him (CD) hooping and hollaring when BC was arrested - but I would caution you to take the advice of those more familiar with him before forming a friendship. I don't think it will be what you expect.

Cheyenne130
04-19-2011, 10:28 PM
In comparison to Cummings I will have to stick with quick

That's like comparing the tortoise and the snail.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 10:29 PM
He was definitely a different judge after Kurtz accused him of bias. I was quite surprised.

Actually a brilliant move by Kurtz.
He knew full well the judge had grounds for his rulings.
His tantrum and grandstanding may work to get some future rulings to go his way, even if it is not in the best interest of justice.

Kinda like K and Roy working the refs.

CaryFrom NJ
04-19-2011, 10:30 PM
That's like comparing the tortoise and the snail.

Actually - I do have to agree. They are both awful in their vocal tones and failure to speak quickly. I mis-spoke with I said "quick"

unc70
04-19-2011, 10:30 PM
I want the real killer of Nancy brought to justice. If that is not Brad then it must be someone else. If someone framed Brad Cooper then that person must be the real killer, yes? If the real killer didn't frame Brad Cooper then the person who did frame him must know who the real killer is (and that it is not Brad Cooper).

And I want to know why this framer chose to go the route of changing a computer file as their method to this frame job. That's pretty specific. I want to know how they knew there wasn't other evidence to lead to the killer.

Nothing says that the "framer" and the "real killer" have to be the same person or even know each other.

Albert
04-19-2011, 10:31 PM
I don't think it's too far-fetched that CPD may have looked at Fielding DR relative to the Cooper's residence. Not to try to plant any evidence, but as part of the investigation. Then changed the date so no one would suspect they were using the computer during those 27 hours.

None of this would be happening right now if they hadn't left it up and running for 27 hours. Why would they do that?

And at the same time the CPD must have taken the 2 left shoes. I think you are onto something

ncsu95
04-19-2011, 10:33 PM
I like Kurtz. Granted his voice is strange and grating at first, but it doesn't bother me. And, he fights hard for his client. So, I have to disagree with you on who wouldn't. But you are correct that Judge G doesn't hide his total dislike for him. As for rulings, you are entitled as always to your opinion.

I do too. I think he is pretty level headed as well. He has been respectful with his tone to everyone in this trial. Even his co-council has lost it a couple of times. And the manner in which Zellinger was talking to Jay Ward this morning was ridiculous. You can get your point across to the judge (it doesn't take much in this case) without belittling the witness. the "did you even know that before I told you" question was completely out of line. He had every right to question his credentials and his methods, but he didn't have the right to talk down to this guy.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 10:33 PM
Just wondering if you are this snarky in person or is it just the persona you use when you hide behind a computer?

I NEVER suggested he is a possible murder suspect. NEVER. And I said "played" together. If you are going to get so literal, get it right.

Did I say you did?
I said "according to some".

johnfear
04-19-2011, 10:33 PM
Here's where they were going.

1) The CTF definitely "left something out". I don't know what. I don't care.
2) There is no planted evidence, there was a manipulation.
3) The manipulation was two-part. a) someone was looking ahead of the search warrant on BC's Cisco Thinkpad (7-25 if memory serves) and then covered up the looksie into it and IT IS IN THE MFT, but doesn't qualify as exculpatory.
4) The guy on the stand today is awesome, FYI. The jury LOVED him.
5) Why did they let three of the blacked out witnesses sit in open court IN CAMERA VIEW? Could you guys see them?
6) They called out Chad for apparently recording GJ headed to the stand. Was this on the live stream?

This crap is so boring it's silly and I really want to catch up on all your posts, but it KEEPS expanding. So, courtroom, today...fun. (Not really. We sat there for like four hours of nothing)

OH, by the way, Zellinger was a butthole and may have screwed up the "smoking gun" today in misquoting the case law on methodology. Several people on each side noted it. I think Kurtz moved for the mistrial and the bias thing to call the judge's bluff for a day or two. This also buys him time to get some better answers from the pros re: "How am I supposed to get an expert when I don't know what I'm dealing with?"

He got several sustains in AND got an overrule in his favor.

I bet this looked really boring from home (most of it truly was) HOWEVER, parts of it seemed fun.

They are definitely gonna take it to the wire. I believe a few of you were there when CC was hemming and hawing over some of the things happening around the google search and the whole "ummm, it was not an update that I remember, but we ruled it out....because we ruled it out. I am not sure why it got ruled out."

Sorry I can't read all of the wonderful posts tonite, but I will catch up in the morning and weigh in with something witty somewhere.

jrb0124
04-19-2011, 10:35 PM
And at the same time the CPD must have taken the 2 left shoes. I think you are onto something

CPD has stated, during testimony, that they 'do not consider the shoes (other sides) missing'.

However, what they could have been doing at the same time is erasing the data in NC phone - which they have admitted to.

sunshine05
04-19-2011, 10:36 PM
Actually - I do have to agree. They are both awful in their vocal tones and failure to speak quickly. I mis-spoke with I said "quick"


I think Kurtz does TRY to get to the point but with evasive/forgetful witnesses that is a huge challenge.

He spent a lot of time questioning the credentials of JW today, but he had to. Once he was deemed an expert witness in certain categories, Kurtz went straight to it with the demo of how to hack into someone's network.

LyndyLoo
04-19-2011, 10:37 PM
Actually a brilliant move by Kurtz.
He knew full well the judge had grounds for his rulings.
His tantrum and grandstanding may work to get some future rulings to go his way, even if it is not in the best interest of justice.

Kinda like K and Roy working the refs.

Orrr giving him enough rope to hang himself...I happen to think Boz is getting this too...Kurtz is being allowed to go so far into this..and it may come back to bite him in the end...like I said..I dont believe it was helpful to show how easy it was to crack servers ( ala getting into nancy's emails)..and abilities to delete data remotely..now that one really surprise me,, But we will see how it shakes out after cross and re-direct and re-cross...

Please guys rmember AT&T has call logs..and those time stamps are in concrete..and I do think jurors will understand them..put them together with just who had access to those #'s...Hacking is not going to be even part f their equation in my opinion..:twocents:

Albert
04-19-2011, 10:38 PM
"Compromised" is an adjective too, and that's how I am using it. Defense doesn't need a who or a why, the jurors can come to their own conclusions. Remember, the defense only needs to create reaosnable doubt, they don;t have to prove anything. The fact that the laptop could have been accessed by someone other than BC greatly diminishes the integrity of that evidence.

Cool, so now all pedophiles caught with child porn on their computers will be let off the hook if their computer was on a WEP network.

dramamama
04-19-2011, 10:38 PM
I wish I could remember where off the top of my head, it was probably a true crime book regarding either OJ or SP, but there was an excellent description of CE. It is thought by some, that CE is a chain, and if one link is broken in their mind, then the entire case falls to pieces. Rather, CE is like a rope, and each piece of CE just strengthens the cord, so if individual pieces are disputed by members of the jury, it doesn’t matter, because the strength of the rope is still there.

That being said, reasonable doubt would have to destroy many if not most of the cords in the strength of this rope. So for the defense to be successful to me, they need to not show some flashy scenarios, but get serious in showing the following:
1. Show me a witness who will verify Brad’s statement, regardless of what NC said, that they had not discussed divorce in two months and were reconciling. Just one.
2. Show me another person who was snooping on NC’s email.
3. Show me a witness who claims BC never used the FXO card in his home, and had a work-related purpose for ordering one that can be verified.
4. Show me a witness that can verify BC never took a router from Cisco to accommodate an FXO card, or if not, one that can verify a safe return of one.
5. Show me another suspect’s computer that researched Fielding Dr. before the murder.
6. Show me the allowance withdrawl BC made for NC that weekend, despite her painting, to show her a liar.
7. Show me a video, where either BC is asleep when he said he was, or a log from another computer that shows someone hacked BC’s system, and looked at NC’s email the night before the murder when he said he was sleeping.
8. Show me a witness who will testify that at least ONE OTHER TIME in the marriage BC cleaned and did all the laundry in an attempt to appease his wife.
9. Show me a witness who can claim that NC ran with two left shoes regularly bc of a foot disorder.
10. Show me a witness who can testify that NC threw the sticks and ducks away on Saturday morning, before her run, because she didn’t like them.
11. Show me a witness who can testify that BC did in fact spill gas in his trunk the weekend he said he did weeks before the murder.
12. Show me a witness who saw the cleaned garage before NC came home, and then saw her and the kids mess it up after their return from vacation.
13. Show me a witness who can state why BC was concerned about search dogs for his missing wife, but could not provide one single article of clothing to help in the search bc he suddenly did all the laundry. Can anyone testify seeing him berate himself for the irony of finally doing the one thing to help his marriage was the one thing that would keep her missing?
14. Show me a witness that can also testify that even though NC was a regular, if not almost daily runner, she wore the same black and red sportsbra every day, despite the heat and perspiration.
15. Show me a witness that can say they saw that stain on NC’s dress.
16. Show me a witness, who either saw, or heard from BC that NC gave her treasured necklace to him because she was so angry the night before she went missing.
17. Show me the IP address of the person who hacked not one, but all of the computers in that house.
18. Show me one person who was seen at the crime sight, who knew NC.
19. And show me a witness who either saw NC jogging with someone else that morning, or saw her enter a home or other location with someone else.
I could go on and on, but you get my point. ( And if some of you don’t, please ask, and I will keep going…) Stop talking Kurtz and show me. Otherwise, this is done.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 10:39 PM
I know you mentioned in an earlier post that you wished you could have stood next to him (CD) hooping and hollaring when BC was arrested - but I would caution you to take the advice of those more familiar with him before forming a friendship. I don't think it will be what you expect.

No interest in having anything at all to do with CD.
Why would I?
The applauding I missed when Brad was cuffed had nothing to do with him.

SleuthinNC
04-19-2011, 10:40 PM
But they wouldn't need to convince a jury of anything to re-open the case. I thought it was interesting when DD said the case was still "ongoing" and then when Kurtz asked about it later he said "oh. I just mean because we're still going to court over this case, etc.". I think they know they don't have their guy but it is way too late to admit it. I want the killer to be caught (if it's not BC) so I hope they keep an open mind if he is found not guilty.


The problem is even if they find somebody else, having charged and tried somebody else for the murder leads to some pretty clear reasonable doubt for the next trial.

CaryFrom NJ
04-19-2011, 10:40 PM
Did I say you did?
I said "according to some".

Very good. So - you didn't anwer my main question. Are you this snarky in person or just when behind a computer? You seem to be very "in your face" to a lot of posters who do not agree with you. It is quite childish, to be honest

sunshine05
04-19-2011, 10:41 PM
Thank you johnfear! Excellent summary, much appreciated.

Danielle59
04-19-2011, 10:42 PM
do you mean this?

i had heard about cd and dd, but not a great and sudden rash of divorces.

Didn't JA and her husband also divorce?

otto
04-19-2011, 10:42 PM
He was definitely a different judge after Kurtz accused him of bias. I was quite surprised.

Agree 100%.

jrb0124
04-19-2011, 10:42 PM
4) The guy on the stand today is awesome, FYI. The jury LOVED him.

Thanks for you observations johnfear.

Some posters here felt the witness was a third rate hack, who BC 'would look down his nose at', who lost the jury in testimony, will get torn up on cross and perhaps lied for $$$.

Glad to hear this is not true from your perspective. I also thought he came across as genuine, and did a good job today.

Danielle59
04-19-2011, 10:43 PM
That is the only one and they are not on bad terms.
Drama, drama , drama.

You have no clue what kind of terms they are on, bad or good.

jrb0124
04-19-2011, 10:44 PM
No interest in having anything at all to do with CD.
Why would I?
The applauding I missed when Brad was cuffed had nothing to do with him.

Oh okay. You said you wished you could have stood next to him, so I thought it was something a little more personal.

less0305
04-19-2011, 10:44 PM
The problem is even if they find somebody else, having charged and tried somebody else for the murder leads to some pretty clear reasonable doubt for the next trial.

Especially after the CPD is accused of being corrupt and planting evidence. Cary will be lucky to have any crimes solved and someone serving time for them in the future. Don't think defense attorneys won't on jump that bandwagon and ride it for quite some time.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 10:47 PM
Oh okay. You said you wished you could have stood next to him, so I thought it was something a little more personal.

That's not what I said.

SleuthinNC
04-19-2011, 10:48 PM
That is really none of your business. Why do you ask? Does it matter for some reason or another?

Wow - I didn't realize what a great memory you have? Impressive.

These personal comments are just an attempt to get you riled up so you type something that gets you put in a "time out" so you can't post your relevant opinions. Using the "Ignore List" is your friend here. I'd hate to lose your perspective.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 10:49 PM
Especially after the CPD is accused of being corrupt and planting evidence. Cary will be lucky to have any crimes solved and someone serving time for them in the future. Don't think defense attorneys won't on jump that bandwagon and ride it for quite some time.But less035, unlike the SBI from years ago, calling out CPD for dishonesty has absolutely no validity. Kurtz is the one that has hurt himself with LE and the DA's office. "Deals" for his clients may be harder to come by now.

cody100
04-19-2011, 10:50 PM
These personal comments are just an attempt to get you riled up so you type something that gets you put in a "time out" so you can't post your relevant opinions. Using the "Ignore List" is your friend here. I'd hate to lose your perspective.

I dito sleuth's comments. Just use Ignore so you don't get put in a time out.

Albert
04-19-2011, 10:53 PM
No, I am sure CPD took over the house, BC left and they had access to the powered up computer for 27 hours. Don't know the exact dates but this has not been disputed.

I don't think they needed the password. The PC was up and running.

The laptop was shown to be in a locked state, ctrl-alt-del and then password.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 10:53 PM
Can we discuss the case w/o all this childish banter?
Yes, ignore is a good thing.
Several of you, please feel free to use it on me....I would be honored.

less0305
04-19-2011, 10:54 PM
But less035, unlike the SBI from years ago, calling out CPD for dishonesty has absolutely no validity. Kurtz is the one that has hurt himself with LE and the DA's office. "Deals" for his clients may be harder to come by now.

It's gonna be hard times for drug dealers, huh?

jrb0124
04-19-2011, 10:54 PM
Kurtz is the one that has hurt himself with LE and the DA's office. "Deals" for his clients may be harder to come by now.

I'm glad he's putting it all on the line for his client, and not sacrificing that advocacy for some undetermined future deals for undetermined future clients. In my book, that's the way to prove your salt.

Danielle59
04-19-2011, 10:55 PM
He and I did several of the same events and trained in the same area. I didn't know him but I also don't know anyone who didn't ride that road. That and Kildaire provided the elevation. He was doing distance cycling but didn't ride the circuit around his house? He was training for rides over 100 miles and didn't leave his neighborhood?

Ok, I've never asked him and I don't know him so I don't know that he did the practical, reasonable, almost impossible to avoid thing. But I believe he would have, to accomplish the events he chose to participate in. And he would have seen the Fielding Dr. sign.

Granted if one is wedded to believing in innocence at all costs, one could think he was sequestered in his home (despite training for long distance triathlons) without knowledge of nearby roads and yet also had his computer hacked, all to support his not knowing about the street his wife was dumped on.

Bottom line, you don't know that he rode on Holly Springs Rd. Because you did it and would do it you assume he did also, but, you don't know. No one said anything about being sequestered in his home, but you still don't know if he rode there or rode somewhere else, you are making an assumption based on what you would do.

Cheyenne130
04-19-2011, 10:55 PM
The laptop was shown to be in a locked state, ctrl-alt-del and then password.

I tried to find the picture earlier. I know they have a picture in evidence of the state of the computer when they took control of it so the jury has it. I couldn't find it in order to satisfy myself.

sunshine05
04-19-2011, 10:56 PM
Especially after the CPD is accused of being corrupt and planting evidence. Cary will be lucky to have any crimes solved and someone serving time for them in the future. Don't think defense attorneys won't on jump that bandwagon and ride it for quite some time.

After watching this trial, do you really not think they were being evasive and purposely forgetful/borderline lying? (long sleeves versus short is a "typo")? They are not doing the citizens of Cary any favors with their obvious incompetence.

johnfear
04-19-2011, 10:56 PM
Thanks for you observations johnfear.

Some posters here felt the witness was a third rate hack, who BC 'would look down his nose at', who lost the jury in testimony, will get torn up on cross and perhaps lied for $$$.

Glad to hear this is not true from your perspective. I also thought he came across as genuine, and did a good job today.

He is not a third rate hack and I don't want him getting NEAR my computer, EVER. However, I do think some of his pros fits were set-ups. I am betting Kurtz went over the real questions and Blum came in and tore him apart, ala Zellinger to get some reactions. Why? Because the detectives were so stoney, it made him seem real.

I knew of him beforehand and googled him after. I think the whole point of his (whatever that V word is where they prequalify you sans jury voir dire?) was to get Zellinger riled at the forensic part only to then have Kurtz focus on the network idea. (And this is something that the Cisco Security team and CPD could have easily done ala forensic preview/blackberry debacle, so it comes across nicely).

I am just excited that it wasn't a blow out for either side. I knew both sides were very talented coming in and it has been awesome to watch the meltdowns it has created. (The technology stuff really is going to be the thing to watch in the future, so that has me more captivated than the actual trial itself)

unc70
04-19-2011, 10:56 PM
So, I am just catching up on the posts for the evening. So, I am trying to understand the probability of such actions and am wondering if this list is complete. So, I don't have a windoze to test with but wouldn't one of the event viewer logs indicate a system clock change has been made. So, if so, then the hacker must also have deleted entries from the event viewer. So, I am wondering is a friendly windoze user could test to verify that event viewer log would indicate a time change, I am thinking the system event viewer log.


Wondered about that myself. I looked at that on a current XP SP3 system, set the date back a few days, did a few things, set the date back to the correct day. I was surprised to see that the only indication in the Event Log of changing the date was that on each changing of the date, Norton reported losing the TCPIP connection on the wireless. Events in log would carry the changed time/date, but nothing more and even that would soon age out or could have been explicitly erased.

Have not spent the time to see what would happen with browser logs and such. Not reassured by what I found. Admit that this system did not have any of the Cisco or other extra security. Just Norton and a bunch of other typical geek software (psi, ccleaner, malwarebytes, etc.). Have not had time to really dig into this. Don't use MS Win for much besides watching trials from home. Not allowed inside my company network.

Albert
04-19-2011, 10:57 PM
Is it reasonable that any of the neighbors decided to mess with the computer ... one comes to mind right away. I don't know his name, but he's the guy that had quite the attitude on the stand, who I think swore a bit and who lived across the street. Is it reasonable that he, his wife and all her friends were convinced that Brad was guilty before the investigation started, and is it reasonable that this gang of neighbors matched their stories, covered for each other and gave police whatever they could to ensure that Brad was arrested? Is it then reasonable to wonder how far this gang of neighbors was willing to go to see their justice done?

After all the testimony we saw from the neighbors, I have no problem believing that they were willing to do whatever they thought necessary to have Brad convicted.

interesting, I too have noticed an increasing number of black helicopters hovering over lochmere.

CaryFrom NJ
04-19-2011, 10:58 PM
Just wondered if you were out of school for spring break, that's all.
And yes, I clearly recalled you saying you were female.
I could care less of course...just brought it up since you decided to for some reason?

Nope. Not on spring break. Not in school. Married. Female. Two small children. Live in Lochmere. Successful career. Mid 30's. Does that suffice? Anything else I can answer for you?

Am I mature enough for you? Because YOUR maturity level seems to be the one in question, by quite a few posters here.

You obviously did care less because you were the one asking my age, not me offering it.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 10:58 PM
I'm glad he's putting it all on the line for his client, and not sacrificing that advocacy for some undetermined future deals for undetermined future clients. In my book, that's the way to prove your salt.

iMO, his zeal is not for his client that he believes is innocent (what a joke).
He is playing for the cameras for much needed publicity for his firm.

less0305
04-19-2011, 10:58 PM
After watching this trial, do you really not think they were being evasive and purposely forgetful/borderline lying? (long sleeves versus short is a "typo")? They are not doing the citizens of Cary any favors with their obvious incompetence.

No, I don't. That is all.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 10:59 PM
Cary from NJ, please put me on ignore....thanks!
I am tired of your sarcastic posts directed to me.

less0305
04-19-2011, 10:59 PM
iMO, his zeal is not for his client that he believes is innocent (what a joke).
He is playing for the cameras for much needed publicity for his firm.

Hey, times are tough all over - even law firms are feeling the pinch. A shark gotta do what a shark gotta do to eat.

gritguy
04-19-2011, 11:00 PM
Bottom line, you don't know that he rode on Holly Springs Rd. Because you did it and would do it you assume he did also, but, you don't know. No one said anything about being sequestered in his home, but you still don't know if he rode there or rode somewhere else, you are making an assumption based on what you would do.

Right. I believe he did many times. I didn't see him do it. I believe he would have run on loch mere, but I didnt see that either.

Brad stated he didn't think Nancy would have run on holly springs due to no sidewalk. That's pretty reasonable even though he didn't see her do it, or not do it, on every time she went running.

I could be wrong in my belief.

sunshine05
04-19-2011, 11:02 PM
Albert, I'd like your head to meet this wall. Become friends, you're going to know each other very well.:banghead:

It's a shame some of you get so upset you feel a need to bang your head against a wall. Really, maybe another hobby would be something to consider?

dramamama
04-19-2011, 11:02 PM
And further, I have heard the Innocence Project quoted here. I am in full support of their mission, and just so we are clear, I wanted to post their top six reasons for fighting:

•Eyewitness Misidentification
•Unvalidated or Improper Forensic Science

•False Confessions / Admissions

•Government Misconduct
•Informants or Snitches
•Bad Lawyering


So, is ther an eyewitness that the defense claims is incorrect?
Do they have a problem with the forensic science that claims in truth their faults, rather than impeach themselves in testimony to support a weak prosecution?
Do we have a false confession due to police badgering?
Do we have an informant who could benefit with a plea bargain and snitched on BC?
So we have bad lawyering?

There is only one item in my mind that could even involve someone from the Innocence Project. And can we please dedicate their efforts to cases that fit their main descriptions? Unless of course you want to concede he has had bad lawyering.....

Albert
04-19-2011, 11:02 PM
That is how this trial has appeared from the beginning. We have a bunch of neighbors convinced that they know more about Brad and his family than Brad does. They decided he was guilty of murder by noon on the day she disappeared, and I agree that the neighbors guided police to the evidence that has been presented. It is believable that if the neighbors thought the police needed a little help that they would work together to help them along.

It must be time for all cary residents to move, obviously the police are not professional as they are mindless lemmings.

less0305
04-19-2011, 11:05 PM
It's a shame some of you get so upset you feel a need to bang your head against a wall. Really, maybe another hobby would be something to consider?

Thank you for your kind advice and concern for my well being. I'll take that under advisement. Let me know when you need a little friendly advice.

Tink56
04-19-2011, 11:05 PM
After watching this trial, do you really not think they were being evasive and purposely forgetful/borderline lying? (long sleeves versus short is a "typo")? They are not doing the citizens of Cary any favors with their obvious incompetence.

Seems to me that you need to add MOO to your post or provide extensive proof before you make a blanket statement about "obvious incompetence" and "being evasive and ...borderline lying" (whatever that is...),

IMO, the LE officers involved are testifying about something that happened over 2.5 years ago (almost 3). They may have forgotten "why" they did some things...they may have had overlappiing reasons for actions they took...etc. However, they were trying to establish timelines, motivation, relationships, all the while working with a husband who was not overly cooperative and his in-laws who were strongly suggesting that BC "did something" to their child/sister. It would be a precarious road for any individual...

My father was a judge (various levels...city, county, federal district, etc.). One of his biggest complaints about LE was when they cut corners and forced him into one. So, I'm not naive about the Blue Wall...but the testimony that I've heard, read, etc., IMO, does not rise to deliberate curtailment or encroachment on Brad's rights....

Cheyenne130
04-19-2011, 11:06 PM
He is not a third rate hack and I don't want him getting NEAR my computer, EVER. However, I do think some of his pros fits were set-ups. I am betting Kurtz went over the real questions and Blum came in and tore him apart, ala Zellinger to get some reactions. Why? Because the detectives were so stoney, it made him seem real.

I knew of him beforehand and googled him after. I think the whole point of his (whatever that V word is where they prequalify you sans jury voir dire?) was to get Zellinger riled at the forensic part only to then have Kurtz focus on the network idea. (And this is something that the Cisco Security team and CPD could have easily done ala forensic preview/blackberry debacle, so it comes across nicely).

I am just excited that it wasn't a blow out for either side. I knew both sides were very talented coming in and it has been awesome to watch the meltdowns it has created. (The technology stuff really is going to be the thing to watch in the future, so that has me more captivated than the actual trial itself)

You're right and many here are captivated by the technolgy involved. I'm not sure the jury has the same level of interest in the tech side. I think 100% of the people here (O.K.....I exaggerated.) could come away with an idea of guilt or innocence and the jury could come up with a total opposite verdict.

I followed a trial recently (husband killed wife) where I was on the side of the defense. I did not feel that the state proved their case at all. The jury came back in record time with a guilty verdict. One reason given in post interviews was, "The dog barking in the background on the 911 call told us that he had killed her and that's why the dog was barking". Another reason given, "We just didn't feel that the defense proved his innocence". What we focus on as "trial junkies" and what juries focus on are two different things. MOO

jrb0124
04-19-2011, 11:06 PM
iMO, his zeal is not for his client that he believes is innocent (what a joke).
He is playing for the cameras for much needed publicity for his firm.

I can't say I am surprised that this is your take on it. You seem to assess a negative and self-serving motive to anyone on the defense side of the aisle. You really should take a step back, and I mean this in the best possible way. The "us against them" mentality is never as clear cut as you think. There are no absolute white (to quote you) and black hats in anything.

Although I don't doubt that attorneys will play for the camera when they can, its not usually at the expense of the representation they provide.

CaryFrom NJ
04-19-2011, 11:08 PM
Bottom line, you don't know that he rode on Holly Springs Rd. Because you did it and would do it you assume he did also, but, you don't know. No one said anything about being sequestered in his home, but you still don't know if he rode there or rode somewhere else, you are making an assumption based on what you would do.

I am a runner and enjoy running in the Lochmere / Cary Parkway / Regency area, but would never run along Holly Springs Road. There is no running area and no sidewalks. Let alone - cars fly up and down that road. I find it quite dangerous and rarely see anyone riding or running along Holly Springs Road. That is not saying that noone does, but I would find it very hard to avoid any sorts of dangerous situations (cars, traffic, etc) on that particular stretch

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 11:08 PM
It's a shame some of you get so upset you feel a need to bang your head against a wall. Really, maybe another hobby would be something to consider?

One of my hobbies (among many) is seeking justice for innocent murder victims and their families. I have a special interest in seeing husbands that kill their wives pay for their misdeed.

Tink56
04-19-2011, 11:09 PM
And further, I have heard the Innocence Project quoted here. I am in full support of their mission, and just so we are clear, I wanted to post their top six reasons for fighting:

•Eyewitness Misidentification
•Unvalidated or Improper Forensic Science

•False Confessions / Admissions

•Government Misconduct
•Informants or Snitches
•Bad Lawyering


So, is ther an eyewitness that the defense claims is incorrect?
Do they have a problem with the forensic science that claims in truth their faults, rather than impeach themselves in testimony to support a weak prosecution?
Do we have a false confession due to police badgering?
Do we have an informant who could benefit with a plea bargain and snitched on BC?
So we have bad lawyering?

There is only one item in my mind that could even involve someone from the Innocence Project. And can we please dedicate their efforts to cases that fit their main descriptions? Unless of course you want to concede he has had bad lawyering.....

Interesting...I have seen this list before. Obviously, two of the issues that Kurtz is trying to hone are the amendment violations and rush to judgement. I understand, the rush to judgement has been a reason for granting several appeals in recent history.

Are all the law schools in the Raleigh area affliated with the Innocence Project? I encountered difficulty when trying to access the local NC offices. I couldn't find their street address.

Danielle59
04-19-2011, 11:10 PM
But less035, unlike the SBI from years ago, calling out CPD for dishonesty has absolutely no validity. Kurtz is the one that has hurt himself with LE and the DA's office. "Deals" for his clients may be harder to come by now.

So you admit that LE and the DA are underhanded and would deny someone a deal because they didn't like their attorney, thank you for admitting that they can be childish, easily influenced and that they play games with people's lives.

unc70
04-19-2011, 11:11 PM
Unfortunately I was not able to catch JW testimony this afternoon, I will have to watch it later. But it is my understanding that JW showed how easy it is to hack into a WEP network to learn the network password. Did JW also show how easy it is to hack into computers connected to that same network? It is quite a different story on how to hack into a computer.

My guess is that the second short video by Ward will pick up with that. The first one was just to the point of looking around at the files on the hacked network.

The pros. probably did not realize that Ward would stop the video and comment at each command, explaining to the jury what was going on. Am expecting a strong objection before the second video is presented.

Try to catch the meat of his testimony, following all the CV stuff, starting just before the video of the screen while hacking the WEB. You need that before tomorrow am.

sunshine05
04-19-2011, 11:11 PM
Seems to me that you need to add MOO to your post or provide extensive proof before you make a blanket statement about "obvious incompetence" and "being evasive and ...borderline lying" (whatever that is...),

IMO, the LE officers involved are testifying about something that happened over 2.5 years ago (almost 3). They may have forgotten "why" they did some things...they may have had overlappiing reasons for actions they took...etc. However, they were trying to establish timelines, motivation, relationships, all the while working with a husband who was not overly cooperative and his in-laws who were strongly suggesting that BC "did something" to their child/sister. It would be a precarious road for any individual...

My father was a judge (various levels...city, county, federal district, etc.). One of his biggest complaints about LE was when they cut corners and forced him into one. So, I'm not naive about the Blue Wall...but the testimony that I've heard, read, etc., IMO, does not rise to deliberate curtailment or encroachment on Brad's rights....

Did you watch the cross examinations of DD and Det. Young? Because if you did, you will see clearly what I am talking about.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 11:12 PM
I can't say I am surprised that this is your take on it. You seem to assess a negative and self-serving motive to anyone on the defense side of the aisle. You really should take a step back, and I mean this in the best possible way. The "us against them" mentality is never as clear cut as you think. There are no absolute white (to quote you) and black hats in anything.

Although I don't doubt that attorneys will play for the camera when they can, its not usually at the expense of the representation they provide.

We are talking about this case, right?
Why would you say I would always assess a negative and self-serving motive to anyone on the defense side?
Just because i personally feel 100% that Cooper is guilty, doesn't mean I don't believe in fair justice for the wrongly accused.

Danielle59
04-19-2011, 11:12 PM
The laptop was shown to be in a locked state, ctrl-alt-del and then password.

Were you there when the CPD secured the house? It was up and running when they got there, they testified to that, how do you know that someone did not move the mouse or change the screensaver setting so that it did not come back on which would cause the PW state to not engage? They could have then changed the password settings back before they turned it off 27 hours later.

jrb0124
04-19-2011, 11:13 PM
It's a shame some of you get so upset you feel a need to bang your head against a wall. Really, maybe another hobby would be something to consider?

sunshine, I really am starting to worry about both the physical and mental toll following this trial can take on some folks so emotionally invested in it, especially if it ends in a NG.

CyberPro
04-19-2011, 11:15 PM
All you computer experts out there - are 'we' crazy to be using wireless laptops etc?

No, Please keep using it... I enjoy seeing the pictures of your family....

:great:

Seriously, computer security is like any other security. You cannot keep someone out of something they are determined to get into, you can only make it harder and more costly.

If someone wants to break into your house, they will. You can make it hard, you can get alarms, strong doors, locks and dogs, but they will keep working it until they get it, IF they are determined. Same thing with computers.

WEP = Really insecure these days.
OPEN = OK, you are asking for it....
Public - I use them, but KNOW what you are attaching to, and don't access private information that is not on a secure website on a public WiFi.

WPA - Tough to crack, but can be done with enough time. What you have to ask yourself is what is the most important, secret thing that I have on my computer, and what would happen if it was on the front page of the newspaper tomorrow, and take security precautions accordingly.

You also want to ensure that your home network is secured, because even if you have nothing that you care about anyone else seeing, someone can use your Wireless Signal to launch attacks that can point back to you as the attacker. When the RIAA was filing rampant lawsuits about music downloads, I am pretty sure they caught some innocent folks in the wreckage by this happening.

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 11:15 PM
So you admit that LE and the DA are underhanded and would deny someone a deal because they didn't like their attorney, thank you for admitting that they can be childish, easily influenced and that they play games with people's lives.

Not childish and underhanded,,,,just human nature.
People tend to do special favors for those they like and respect.
I know I do.

CaryFrom NJ
04-19-2011, 11:15 PM
I've got one. Based on your described demographics and your living in Lochmere, have you slept with HM? If not, you may be the only one. :p

(Peace. I'm kidding... Just trying to lighten the mood here.)

LOL. She did seem to be quite popular amonst the Lochmere crowd. In all honesty, though, I didn't know her. But, she does have quite the reputation.
Your post made me chuckle. Thanks. Needed that

gritguy
04-19-2011, 11:15 PM
I am a runner and enjoy running in the Lochmere / Cary Parkway / Regency area, but would never run along Holly Springs Road. There is no running area and no sidewalks. Let alone - cars fly up and down that road. I find it quite dangerous and rarely see anyone riding or running along Holly Springs Road. That is not saying that noone does, but I would find it very hard to avoid any sorts of dangerous situations (cars, traffic, etc) on that particular stretch

Running on holly springs was always dangerous if you like your ankles; no way to get off a fairly narrow road.

It has become more dangerous for cyclists as traffic has increased but a few years ago it was a very common road to ride. Back 05 to 08 if you had been there early in the morning you'd have seen at least a few of us on it most days of the week.

less0305
04-19-2011, 11:16 PM
Did you watch the cross examinations of DD and Det. Young? Because if you did, you will see clearly what I am talking about.

I think you can admit that some people see testimony one way and others see it another way. Not everyone is going to agree that your opinion is the clearly right opinion.

And now I'm taking my sore head to the pillow for a change - the wall will be here again tomorrow.

Danielle59
04-19-2011, 11:20 PM
It's a shame some of you get so upset you feel a need to bang your head against a wall. Really, maybe another hobby would be something to consider?

They don't like me saying that the PW protection could have been bypassed if someone moved the mouse before it engaged, it hurts the credibility of the CPD pretending they properly secured the laptop as soon as they kicked BC out of the house and then left the laptop powered on for 27 hours.

CaryFrom NJ
04-19-2011, 11:20 PM
Running on holly springs was always dangerous if you like your ankles; no way to get off a fairly narrow road.

It has become more dangerous for cyclists as traffic has increased but a few years ago it was a very common road to ride. Back 05 to 08 if you had been there early in the morning you'd have seen at least a few of us on it most days of the week.

You are right. I was relating it to more recently rather than years back. I give you credit - it has got to be a rough road to ride / run on.....monster hills, curves and crazy drivers cruising around those turns at unncessary speeds. I couldn't do it. I will stick to my flat, easy ground of Lochmere / Regency.

jrb0124
04-19-2011, 11:22 PM
Not childish and underhanded,,,,just human nature.
People tend to do special favors for those they like and respect.
I know I do.

Agree...even judges, as we've seen first-hand.

Cheyenne130
04-19-2011, 11:24 PM
They don't like me saying that the PW protection could have been bypassed if someone moved the mouse before it engaged, it hurts the credibility of the CPD pretending they properly secured the laptop as soon as they kicked BC out of the house and then left the laptop powered on for 27 hours.

It's not that some folks don't like it. It's that the CPD had to be at his computer within 10 minutes of him walking away. Looking back at the testimony from the officer (who claimed he saw the straw) on the day the search warrant was being executed, it is not reasonable to assume that CPD could have gotten to his computer within that 10 minute timeframe in order to move the mouse and keep the computer open. And that's assuming that Brad didn't close the lid and thereby lock it down immediately. MOO

Tink56
04-19-2011, 11:25 PM
LOL. She did seem to be quite popular amonst the Lochmere crowd. In all honesty, though, I didn't know her. But, she does have quite the reputation.
Your post made me chuckle. Thanks. Needed that

BTW...Speaking of HM...Did she and JP become a permanent "couple"? I've wondered if she is continuing her search for the perfect ????? or if someone was foolish enough to think they'd found "true love."

unc70
04-19-2011, 11:25 PM
He and I did several of the same events and trained in the same area. I didn't know him but I also don't know anyone who didn't ride that road. That and Kildaire provided the elevation. He was doing distance cycling but didn't ride the circuit around his house? He was training for rides over 100 miles and didn't leave his neighborhood?

Ok, I've never asked him and I don't know him so I don't know that he did the practical, reasonable, almost impossible to avoid thing. But I believe he would have, to accomplish the events he chose to participate in. And he would have seen the Fielding Dr. sign.

Granted if one is wedded to believing in innocence at all costs, one could think he was sequestered in his home (despite training for long distance triathlons) without knowledge of nearby roads and yet also had his computer hacked, all to support his not knowing about the street his wife was dumped on.

Would that support the argument that he would not need to be searching on Google Maps?

unc70
04-19-2011, 11:27 PM
:tmi:

LOL, i'm quite sure you know more about computers than me.

I wasn't limiting it to computers. :)

Cheyenne130
04-19-2011, 11:29 PM
Would that support the argument that he would not need to be searching on Google Maps?

The search was not the road view. It was the satellite view. I think that says something. MOO

SleuthinNC
04-19-2011, 11:31 PM
Ok so I've asked this a couple times and never get an answer but how do we know the screen lock was set for 10 minutes of inactivity?

SleuthSayer
04-19-2011, 11:31 PM
LOL. She did seem to be quite popular amonst the Lochmere crowd. In all honesty, though, I didn't know her. But, she does have quite the reputation.

Well, I don't really "know" her but have met her, long ago. I'll leave it at that since my post teasing you appears to have been deleted, so it must be off limits to poke fun at her here.

:offtobed:

gritguy
04-19-2011, 11:32 PM
Would that support the argument that he would not need to be searching on Google Maps?

Could go either way. It could support not needing to look at the map for very long. I could be wrong about his riding of course. Some think perhaps he went there during the vacation.

In any event I find it hard to believe he didn't know about that new development. That's really my point. I think it is another lie. But that's just my belief.

gracielee
04-19-2011, 11:34 PM
interesting, I too have noticed an increasing number of black helicopters hovering over lochmere.

Tin foil hats, get 'em while you can....

:floorlaugh:

:great:

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 11:35 PM
I wasn't limiting it to computers. :)

Well, that is a rather arrogant statement.

Danielle59
04-19-2011, 11:35 PM
It's not that some folks don't like it. It's that the CPD had to be at his computer within 10 minutes of him walking away. Looking back at the testimony from the officer (who claimed he saw the straw) on the day the search warrant was being executed, it is not reasonable to assume that CPD could have gotten to his computer within that 10 minute timeframe in order to move the mouse and keep the computer open. And that's assuming that Brad didn't close the lid and thereby lock it down immediately. MOO

Closing the lid wouldn't have locked it down not as long as it was running.

Cheyenne130
04-19-2011, 11:37 PM
Ok so I've asked this a couple times and never get an answer but how do we know the screen lock was set for 10 minutes of inactivity?

Someone who was in court the day the FBI guy testified said that he testified to that.

Danielle59
04-19-2011, 11:37 PM
Ok so I've asked this a couple times and never get an answer but how do we know the screen lock was set for 10 minutes of inactivity?

I have wondered too, I guess the FBI said it, but we don't know if BC always had it at 10 minutes. I work from home, mine is set at like four hours.

gracielee
04-19-2011, 11:37 PM
It must be time for all cary residents to move, obviously the police are not professional as they are mindless lemmings.

Please, don't move to my neighborhood.

Cheyenne130
04-19-2011, 11:38 PM
Closing the lid wouldn't have locked it down not as long as it was running.

Are you sure about that? Mine does. If I close the lid, I have to enter a password to get back in. If I don't close the lid, the screen might black out but a move of the mouse will bring it back up if it has been within a certain amount of time. (I honestly don't know what I have it set for.)

Madeleine74
04-19-2011, 11:42 PM
My company laptop timeout is set by the company I.T. folk and users cannot change the setting. It times out in 14 min. If the lid is closed it forces the user to hit Ctrl Alt Del and enter the password. If the laptop times out because the user stepped away, then the user has to press Ctrl Alt Del and enter the password again. If the system reboots or is off and turned on, then another layer of security has to be dealt with first before getting to the Windows logon. To access the company network from offsite, there is another security layer in addition to the two I mentioned above. Three logons to get to the company network from a home office. Two layers if in the office.

jmflu
04-19-2011, 11:43 PM
I am a runner and enjoy running in the Lochmere / Cary Parkway / Regency area, but would never run along Holly Springs Road. There is no running area and no sidewalks. Let alone - cars fly up and down that road. I find it quite dangerous and rarely see anyone riding or running along Holly Springs Road. That is not saying that noone does, but I would find it very hard to avoid any sorts of dangerous situations (cars, traffic, etc) on that particular stretch

Now, wouldn't that go for Nancy, as well?

dramamama
04-19-2011, 11:44 PM
BTW...Speaking of HM...Did she and JP become a permanent "couple"? I've wondered if she is continuing her search for the perfect ????? or if someone was foolish enough to think they'd found "true love."

Have wondered this myself with the irony involved....we can draw our own conclusions. :tears:

Wyn
04-19-2011, 11:45 PM
Please, don't move to my neighborhood.

I still feel safe, we are still ranked as one of the top safest places to live in the US. I'll stay put as long as my husband and I have a happy marriage. If things change, maybe I'll consider a move. :floorlaugh:

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 11:46 PM
My company laptop timeout is set by the company I.T. folk and users cannot change the setting. It times out in 14 min. If the lid is closed it forces the user to hit Ctrl Alt Del and enter the password. If the laptop times out because the user stepped away, then the user has to press Ctrl Alt Del and enter the password again.

For some reason a poster here can't understand how Brad's would be set the same way...only it timed out in only 10 minutes with no activity.

gracielee
04-19-2011, 11:46 PM
We are talking about this case, right?
Why would you say I would always assess a negative and self-serving motive to anyone on the defense side?
Just because i personally feel 100% that Cooper is guilty, doesn't mean I don't believe in fair justice for the wrongly accused.

No kidding. I have no doubt, no reasonable doubt what so ever that Brad Cooper murdered his wife. None, nada. What amazes me is the posters here who live in the Cary area and still leave their homes, walk, jog, etc. What with those murdous van-driving, mormons out there on the loose still. :floorlaugh:

Just the Fax
04-19-2011, 11:48 PM
I still feel safe, we are still ranked as one of the top safest places to live in the US. I'll stay put as long as my husband and I have a happy marriage. If things change, maybe I'll consider a move. :floorlaugh:

Well wyn, if things turn bad, get the heck out of Cary fast cause you may end up a murder victim too.

DogWood
04-19-2011, 11:55 PM
Someone needs to explain to me why BC would leave a computer in his home unlocked/unsecure while he has CPD in the foyer waiting for the SW.

It's just that simple.

jmflu
04-19-2011, 11:55 PM
JTF, I think you are fighting a losing battle. It's gotten to the point where not only do I think some posters must know BC because their support is so unwavering in that they would come up with any excuse as to why it has to be someone else... But also that they are operating 2 or 3 profiles at once. Most of us who have been together since day one have gotten a bit of a thicker skin and have even developed a banter with our posters of opposing viewpoints. I've come to even admire at least one, who though staunch in his initial defense of BC, has shown he can fight for both sides and even change sides but still reason both ways. Those who cannot admit even one other opposing point is solid and almost take it as an attack when you state your reasoning must be put on ignore or they will drive you bonkers.

Danielle59
04-19-2011, 11:58 PM
Are you sure about that? Mine does. If I close the lid, I have to enter a password to get back in. If I don't close the lid, the screen might black out but a move of the mouse will bring it back up if it has been within a certain amount of time. (I honestly don't know what I have it set for.)

Closing the lid doesn't cause my PW to engage on my laptop.

gracielee
04-19-2011, 11:59 PM
Well wyn, if things turn bad, get the heck out of Cary fast cause you may end up a murder victim too.

Yeah, you can move to my neighborhood. We don't have any of those van-driving, murderous mormons out our way. And if you need one, I can rent you one of my dogs to walk. :floorlaugh: Now, as to the husband issue, keep records, but don't store 'em in your car. I'll put 'em in my safe for you.

:fence:

johnfear
04-20-2011, 12:00 AM
JTF, I think you are fighting a losing battle. It's gotten to the point where not only do I think some posters must know BC because their support is so unwavering in that they would come up with any excuse as to why it has to be someone else... But also that they are operating 2 or 3 profiles at once. Most of us who have been together since day one have gotten a bit of a thicker skin and have even developed a banter with our posters of opposing viewpoints. I've come to even admire at least one, who though staunch in his initial defense of BC, has shown he can fight for both sides and even change sides but still reason both ways. Those who cannot admit even one other opposing point is solid and almost take it as an attack when you state your reasoning must be put on ignore or they will drive you bonkers.

Have I mentioned that I love the word bonkers? And man....this thread keeps growing. People got their type on in here today.

ncsu95
04-20-2011, 12:02 AM
Closing the lid doesn't cause my PW to engage on my laptop.

Both my laptops (work and personal) go to "sleep mode" when the lid is closed. This usually locks the computer as well. Does your laptop lock at other times on its own? Or only if you lock it?

jmflu
04-20-2011, 12:03 AM
Dayum, you are right, JF!! 1355 posts?!? Must be a record for us!!!

unc70
04-20-2011, 12:04 AM
We are talking about this case, right?
Why would you say I would always assess a negative and self-serving motive to anyone on the defense side?
Just because i personally feel 100% that Cooper is guilty, doesn't mean I don't believe in fair justice for the wrongly accused.

In other words, "Give him a fair trial, then we will hang him".

ETA: A bit of kidding, not a bit like Judge Bean.

Just the Fax
04-20-2011, 12:04 AM
good points jmflu.
I let a couple of those posters get under my skin, where I should have just ignored them. Sorry for the display of immaturity I showed by taking their bait.
.

Just the Fax
04-20-2011, 12:07 AM
In other words, "Give him a fair trial, then we will hang him".

No, I prefer the humane method of lethal injection.
Unfortunately that is not an option in this case.

gracielee
04-20-2011, 12:09 AM
JTF, I think you are fighting a losing battle. It's gotten to the point where not only do I think some posters must know BC because their support is so unwavering in that they would come up with any excuse as to why it has to be someone else... But also that they are operating 2 or 3 profiles at once. Most of us who have been together since day one have gotten a bit of a thicker skin and have even developed a banter with our posters of opposing viewpoints. I've come to even admire at least one, who though staunch in his initial defense of BC, has shown he can fight for both sides and even change sides but still reason both ways. Those who cannot admit even one other opposing point is solid and almost take it as an attack when you state your reasoning must be put on ignore or they will drive you bonkers.

Totally agree with you, Jmflu. Ignore, best medicine. Brad Cooper didn't have any friends. In real life, he wouldn't have given these people the time of day. People who make excuses for each & every indication of his guilt. Kind of reminds me of that program Prison Wives. I saw Jeffrey MacDonalds wife on TV not too long ago. Seemed like a nice, rational, not bad looking woman. Imagine, spending her life waiting for her prisoner-hubby, baby-killer to get out of prison. Mind-boggling. MOO

unc70
04-20-2011, 12:11 AM
They don't like me saying that the PW protection could have been bypassed if someone moved the mouse before it engaged, it hurts the credibility of the CPD pretending they properly secured the laptop as soon as they kicked BC out of the house and then left the laptop powered on for 27 hours.

Do we know if passwords for the computers were given to the CPD by BC and, if so, when?

Just the Fax
04-20-2011, 12:13 AM
And Lyle and Eric Menendez have wives too, right?
Scott Peterson probably gets 100's of love letters every month.
Yes, totally mind-boggling.

gracielee
04-20-2011, 12:14 AM
No, I prefer the humane method of lethal injection.
Unfortunately that is not an option in this case.

Remember, there are people out there who also supported the likes of David Westerfield.

FullDisclosure
04-20-2011, 12:14 AM
Have I mentioned that I love the word bonkers? And man....this thread keeps growing. People got their type on in here today.

You know what word I love? I love the word wonky, and got really excited when Ward used it as a "technical term" today! ;)

Danielle59
04-20-2011, 12:14 AM
Both my laptops (work and personal) go to "sleep mode" when the lid is closed. This usually locks the computer as well. Does your laptop lock at other times on its own? Or only if you lock it?

It locks if the screensaver comes on.

ncsu95
04-20-2011, 12:15 AM
Dayum, you are right, JF!! 1355 posts?!? Must be a record for us!!!

It is in the NC forum by over 200 posts. There is 1 thread with more views though (it has over 29k). What a long day of arguing.

jmflu
04-20-2011, 12:15 AM
At this point, BC could probably confess, yet have to convince his own supporters.

Danielle59
04-20-2011, 12:16 AM
Do we know if passwords for the computers were given to the CPD by BC and, if so, when?

I don't think he would do that with his work computer, but I really don't know.

ncsu95
04-20-2011, 12:19 AM
It locks if the screensaver comes on.

In windows 7, if you go to control panel -> hardware and sound -> power options -> system settings, there is a radial button option for password protection on wakeup. You also choose on this same page to determine what happens when you close the lid. Mine goes to sleep.

gracielee
04-20-2011, 12:24 AM
And Lyle and Eric Menendez have wives too, right?
Scott Peterson probably gets 100's of love letters every month.
Yes, totally mind-boggling.

Hell, IIRC the Night Stalker has numerous female followers. Women seem more prone to it then men though, don't they. Was listening tonight to some single mother who has been exchanging love letters with Drew Peterson. And there was a woman who either married or was engaged to John Wayne Gacy. Used to take her children to visit him in prison. Go figure.

gracielee
04-20-2011, 12:28 AM
At this point, BC could probably confess, yet have to convince his own supporters.

Well after all, what's a poor man to do. Married to such a horrible woman. It's no wonder it took him as long as it did. :maddening::maddening::maddening:

< sarcasm off >

ncsu95
04-20-2011, 12:29 AM
Hell, IIRC the Night Stalker has numerous female followers. Women seem more prone to it then men though, don't they. Was listening tonight to some single mother who has been exchanging love letters with Drew Peterson. And there was a woman who either married or was engaged to John Wayne Gacy. Used to take her children to visit him in prison. Go figure.

I'm a male, and I will say without hesitation that I don't understand the female mind. But I do think there are a few reasons for this:

1. The prisoners often send "heartfelt" love letters that makes the women feel special. He also talks about "feelings", etc.
2. And this one might be bigger....even though he is in prison, she knows exactly where he is and that he is not out running around on her with another woman.
3. When she sees him, she has his undivided attention.

So it's an emotional love affair. The problem is that she doesn't realize that it is all a game to the prisoner. He has nothing better to do.

Tink56
04-20-2011, 12:31 AM
Remember, there are people out there who also supported the likes of David Westerfield.

:floorlaugh: AND, I might add are still arguing the case....Westerfield case should be reaching its first appeal this summer. Relatives, friends, and late night radio fans...a couple of girlfriends, too...:crazy:

cassius
04-20-2011, 12:33 AM
I'm a male, and I will say without hesitation that I don't understand the female mind. But I do think there are a few reasons for this:

1. The prisoners often send "heartfelt" love letters that makes the women feel special. He also talks about "feelings", etc.
2. And this one might be bigger....even though he is in prison, she knows exactly where he is and that he is not out running around on her with another woman.
3. When she sees him, she has his undivided attention.

So it's an emotional love affair. The problem is that she doesn't realize that it is all a game to the prisoner. He has nothing better to do.


No, but he is probably either running to or from another man...

CyberPro
04-20-2011, 12:34 AM
Closing the lid wouldn't have locked it down not as long as it was running.

You cannot possbily know that as a fact. Computers can be set in the power management settings to power off, suspend or do nothing when the lid is closed. Unless you are aware of the power management settings, you don't know what happened when the lid was closed.

If it was set to anything OTHER than "do nothing" it was locked and/or logged off.

gracielee
04-20-2011, 12:36 AM
I'm a male, and I will say without hesitation that I don't understand the female mind. But I do think there are a few reasons for this:

1. The prisoners often send "heartfelt" love letters that makes the women feel special. He also talks about "feelings", etc.
2. And this one might be bigger....even though he is in prison, she knows exactly where he is and that he is not out running around on her with another woman.
3. When she sees him, she has his undivided attention.

So it's an emotional love affair. The problem is that she doesn't realize that it is all a game to the prisoner. He has nothing better to do.

Oh yes, I've read and thought through all the psychological reasoning. < shakes head> What really bothers me is women who have children getting caught up in these relationships. If a woman wants to throw away her life on some murderer, fine, go for it. But when one has minor children, children are exposed enough to bad elements in life. Without introducing ones children to scum of the earth. And then I'm reminded of how David Westerfield attempted to blame the kiddie porn on his computer, on his teenage son. What a dad. I need a really good symbol for sheer anger and repugnance. :(

Tink56
04-20-2011, 12:37 AM
Well after all, what's a poor man to do. Married to such a horrible woman. It's no wonder it took him as long as it did. :maddening::maddening::maddening:

< sarcasm off >

The tone of some has the ring of the middle school anger of those who hate "those popular girls," but secretly want to be one of the crowd...or the disgruntled x-husbands that know the pain poor BC has suffered...ODD...but strangely human... early :bedtime: Enjoy...

ncsu95
04-20-2011, 12:41 AM
No, but he is probably either running to or from another man...

:Banane59:

ncsu95
04-20-2011, 12:42 AM
Oh yes, I've read and thought through all the psychological reasoning. < shakes head> What really bothers me is women who have children getting caught up in these relationships. If a woman wants to throw away her life on some murderer, fine, go for it. But when one has minor children, children are exposed enough to bad elements in life. Without introducing ones children to scum of the earth. And then I'm reminded of how David Westerfield attempted to blame the kiddie porn on his computer, on his teenage son. What a dad. I need a really good symbol for sheer anger and repugnance. :(

Amen to that.

gracielee
04-20-2011, 12:43 AM
:floorlaugh: AND, I might add are still arguing the case....Westerfield case should be reaching its first appeal this summer. Relatives, friends, and late night radio fans...a couple of girlfriends, too...:crazy:

Really? Now here is a perfect example of the legal system gone amuck IMO. Why he should be allowed ANY appeals boggles ones mind. In the process of making a deal for Danielle's body when the searchers found her remains. And his attorney argues 'innocence'. I'm shocked no one in prison has hung him by his b@lls yet.

CyberPro
04-20-2011, 12:46 AM
I'm a male, and I will say without hesitation that I don't understand the female mind. But I do think there are a few reasons for this:

1. The prisoners often send "heartfelt" love letters that makes the women feel special. He also talks about "feelings", etc.
2. And this one might be bigger....even though he is in prison, she knows exactly where he is and that he is not out running around on her with another woman.
3. When she sees him, she has his undivided attention.

So it's an emotional love affair. The problem is that she doesn't realize that it is all a game to the prisoner. He has nothing better to do.

I read a little something about this a while back. I have to admit that it puzzles me too, but the item I read said, or perhaps I should say "indicated" :innocent: that some of these women see the prisoner as a "safe" man. He is locked away, so they can have the advantages of being married to them or have some kind of a relationship, but not actually have to deal with the reality of having them in their lives.

Take the example of a woman who was abused by her father, maybe physically and/or sexually. She can be married to someone who she knows will never be able to touch her. This satisfies some inner need to be appreciated by a male, but not have him close enough to have any relations with in any way.

Of course, I think they should probably invest in some therapy instead, probably better and safer in the long run, who wants to have these creeps know your name, address and whatever personal details you write to them?
(SHUDDER)

"...believe me, Hannibal Lecter is not someone you want inside your head."

momof7
04-20-2011, 12:47 AM
Common sense. If I was going to hide something, and premeditated this, I would look at a number of possibilities before making a decision. Brad strikes me as the sort of person that thinks things through, so I'm guessing that Brad - during his premeditated murder - took more than 41 seconds to pick the spot.

I am late coming home from work this evening, but wanted to comment on this. BC had opportunity the whole week to scope out possibilities. If we are to believe he is computer savy, who is to say how many maps, zooms, searches weren't already removed? Maybe he DID take the time to ride around but no place at all suited until the Fiedling Drive presented itself. I am one of those who feels that there is a possibility that he will, at the very least, get another trial on appeals. However, I do think he is guilty and the map was an accidental thing he left behind. Not the one thing an innocent person would leave behind because, well, he is innocent and he just, coincedently searched Fielding Drive.

I am not computer savy at all. Heck half the time, I have to get my 17 year old to help me when I end up somewhere I shouldn't be. So, technically I don't know if its possible that an error or something occurred when he
*thought* he was doing the erasing. Some type of system event that did not complete. Is it possible? Sure, I would imagine so.

Kelly

momof7
04-20-2011, 12:54 AM
They don't like me saying that the PW protection could have been bypassed if someone moved the mouse before it engaged, it hurts the credibility of the CPD pretending they properly secured the laptop as soon as they kicked BC out of the house and then left the laptop powered on for 27 hours.

Ok, I understand your point. You are saying that if the computer had only been on 9 minutes when CPD got there, they could have moved the mouse every 9 minutes to avoid it being turned off.

Unless I have missed it, do we even know when that 27 hours began? The moment they walked in the door? 2 hours before they walked in andit was already in the Password protection mode? Did CPD leave it turned on for 27 hours from the moment they took it or it was powered on for 27 hours and that could have began at 5am?

Kelly

momof7
04-20-2011, 01:02 AM
I read a little something about this a while back. I have to admit that it puzzles me too, but the item I read said, or perhaps I should say "indicated" :innocent: that some of these women see the prisoner as a "safe" man. He is locked away, so they can have the advantages of being married to them or have some kind of a relationship, but not actually have to deal with the reality of having them in their lives.

Take the example of a woman who was abused by her father, maybe physically and/or sexually. She can be married to someone who she knows will never be able to touch her. This satisfies some inner need to be appreciated by a male, but not have him close enough to have any relations with in any way.

Of course, I think they should probably invest in some therapy instead, probably better and safer in the long run, who wants to have these creeps know your name, address and whatever personal details you write to them?
(SHUDDER)

"...believe me, Hannibal Lecter is not someone you want inside your head."

I am always in smh mode when I hear of women writing, falling in love, marrying serial killers and murderers. Just boggles my mind. Other than the emotional fullfillment..whatever that would be...the prisoner adds nothing, absolutely nothing to their life. No support on the homefront, financials, kids nada, nothing. As someone else mentioned, Jeffrey MacDonald's current wife. She is an attractive woman who owns or did own a dance stuido if I remember correctly, active in her community and is totally 100% convinced her man is innocent. Wasn't Ted Bundy married as well? The whole thing is bizarre enough for me to wonder if it isn't a selfish attempt on the woman's part to have something she believes is ALL hers, no one elses. She is the winner, the savior. It has to be some kind of savior complex.

Kelly

ncsu95
04-20-2011, 01:06 AM
I am always in smh mode when I hear of women writing, falling in love, marrying serial killers and murderers. Just boggles my mind. Other than the emotional fullfillment..whatever that would be...the prisoner adds nothing, absolutely nothing to their life. No support on the homefront, financials, kids nada, nothing. As someone else mentioned, Jeffrey MacDonald's current wife. She is an attractive woman who owns or did own a dance stuido if I remember correctly, active in her community and is totally 100% convinced her man is innocent. Wasn't Ted Bundy married as well? The whole thing is bizarre enough for me to wonder if it isn't a selfish attempt on the woman's part to have something she believes is ALL hers, no one elses. She is the winner, the savior. It has to be some kind of savior complex.

Kelly

I don't know...again, I won't even pretend to understand what goes on in your (women collectively...not you in particular) head. You ladies are very complex.

momof7
04-20-2011, 01:07 AM
I don't know...again, I won't even pretend to understand what goes on in your (women collectively...not you in particular) head. You ladies are very complex.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, myself and many of my friends feel the same way about the male population!

Kelly

ncsu95
04-20-2011, 01:12 AM
Well, if it makes you feel any better, myself and many of my friends feel the same way about the male population!

Kelly

Come on.... We're fairly simple. There are very few thoughts that aren't related to sex, sports, food, or beer.

momof7
04-20-2011, 01:14 AM
Come on.... We're fairly simple. There are very few thoughts that aren't related to sex, sports, food, or beer.

Yes, simple being the operative word sometimes...:floorlaugh:

Kelly

ncsu95
04-20-2011, 01:20 AM
Yes, simple being the operative word sometimes...:floorlaugh:

Kelly

No arguments here.

metafizik
04-20-2011, 08:19 AM
I think it was Windows Vista

I am quite certain that Windows Vista was never a Cisco standard Operating system.

Danielle59
04-20-2011, 08:23 AM
I'm a male, and I will say without hesitation that I don't understand the female mind. But I do think there are a few reasons for this:

1. The prisoners often send "heartfelt" love letters that makes the women feel special. He also talks about "feelings", etc.
2. And this one might be bigger....even though he is in prison, she knows exactly where he is and that he is not out running around on her with another woman.
3. When she sees him, she has his undivided attention.

So it's an emotional love affair. The problem is that she doesn't realize that it is all a game to the prisoner. He has nothing better to do.

I think they are crazy women, not to say all the above that you said is not true, but I also wonder if it is not some way for them to feel in control. I still think it is totally crazy!

WolfpackWoman
04-20-2011, 08:24 AM
I am quite certain that Windows Vista was never a Cisco standard Operating system.

You're right. Most people at Cisco never saw Vista. But BC was an alpha tester, and he had to test programs on the various operating systems, so he had a vista set up. I think that's part of the problem with the "10 minute password lock out thing." The FBI testified that XP users at Cisco would lock out after 10 minutes of inactivity, but they did not have the information from Cisco on vista users. They also knew that administrative users could reset that time limit when they were at home. So, they believed it was 10 minutes based on the information they received from Cisco about Standard Operating Procedures, but did not verify that from BC's machine.

I do have a hard time believing that anyone would stand there and jostle a mouse. But it would also be ridiculous to think that someone would need to be logged in as BC in order to place files on his computer. There are quite a few other ways to do it, without having to be logged in. (I'm not saying I think CPD did anything, I'm just giving this as a possibility).

Danielle59
04-20-2011, 08:31 AM
Ok, I understand your point. You are saying that if the computer had only been on 9 minutes when CPD got there, they could have moved the mouse every 9 minutes to avoid it being turned off.

Unless I have missed it, do we even know when that 27 hours began? The moment they walked in the door? 2 hours before they walked in andit was already in the Password protection mode? Did CPD leave it turned on for 27 hours from the moment they took it or it was powered on for 27 hours and that could have began at 5am?

Kelly

I don't have the answer to your last paragraph. But they could have moved it before the PW engaged and then turned off the Screensaver at that point so that they didn't have to worry about the PW coming into play, that would take tne 9 minutes 59 second issue away and then reset it before they turned it off, or after they were done looking around, if they did that.

SleuthinNC
04-20-2011, 08:31 AM
You're right. Most people at Cisco never saw Vista. But BC was an alpha tester, and he had to test programs on the various operating systems, so he had a vista set up. I think that's part of the problem with the "10 minute password lock out thing." The FBI testified that XP users at Cisco would lock out after 10 minutes of inactivity, but they did not have the information from Cisco on vista users. They also knew that administrative users could reset that time limit when they were at home. So, they believed it was 10 minutes based on the information they received from Cisco about Standard Operating Procedures, but did not verify that from BC's machine.

I do have a hard time believing that anyone would stand there and jostle a mouse. But it would also be ridiculous to think that someone would need to be logged in as BC in order to place files on his computer. There are quite a few other ways to do it, without having to be logged in. (I'm not saying I think CPD did anything, I'm just giving this as a possibility).

Thank you for answering my lock out question! Also, they wouldn't have to stand around jostling the mouse they would only need to get in one time then they could change the lock out time or disable password protection altogether.

LAWsy_ME
04-20-2011, 08:37 AM
Hello everyone! :seeya: Have been following this since day 1 when NC was reported missing. Have watched the whole trial and witnessed this forum, compelled to read on. Have read on comment sections on newspaper and TV reports and have been horrified with the apparent campaign to smear the victim, NC and the other victims, her dear friends. Does the Innocence Project give a hoot about her innocent children? I don't think so, and after all, the children ARE absolutely innocent, unlike the brad......:loser: I've never seen this in my life, and think that is horrific. It is as if the abuser has continued abuse, and has 20 pairs of hands typing on his behalf.
(IMHO, and H stands for horrified) Jenny

Danielle59
04-20-2011, 08:39 AM
You cannot possbily know that as a fact. Computers can be set in the power management settings to power off, suspend or do nothing when the lid is closed. Unless you are aware of the power management settings, you don't know what happened when the lid was closed.

If it was set to anything OTHER than "do nothing" it was locked and/or logged off.

I don't know, you're right, but the default seems to be "do nothing," I checked this am with a bunch of Cisco friends and all of them say "do nothing" is what they have. They said they never even thought to look at that or consider changing the default that typically if they are walking with the laptop that is when they normally close it while it was running and they are usually on their way to a meeting, so easier to just open it and have it be up. They said when they drive home, when the lid would also be closed, they turn it off because they are putting it in their bag and it would get too hot.

Danielle59
04-20-2011, 08:42 AM
You're right. Most people at Cisco never saw Vista. But BC was an alpha tester, and he had to test programs on the various operating systems, so he had a vista set up. I think that's part of the problem with the "10 minute password lock out thing." The FBI testified that XP users at Cisco would lock out after 10 minutes of inactivity, but they did not have the information from Cisco on vista users. They also knew that administrative users could reset that time limit when they were at home. So, they believed it was 10 minutes based on the information they received from Cisco about Standard Operating Procedures, but did not verify that from BC's machine.

I do have a hard time believing that anyone would stand there and jostle a mouse. But it would also be ridiculous to think that someone would need to be logged in as BC in order to place files on his computer. There are quite a few other ways to do it, without having to be logged in. (I'm not saying I think CPD did anything, I'm just giving this as a possibility).

Since there are so many meetings on line, where you are watching, but not doing anything, I think most people change the settings since a 10 minute no activity lockout would be annoying and could cause them to miss parts of the meeting. 10 minutes is just the default.

less0305
04-20-2011, 08:52 AM
Tin foil hats, get 'em while you can....

:floorlaugh:

:great:

Like the people that call the police department wanting them to do something about that yellow dust SOMEBODY keeps throwing on their car and lawn furniture - or the ones that want whoever is paintballing their car with that purple juice to stop it. Happens every spring, but they keep trying to have the dust spreaders and paintballers locked up.

Just the Fax
04-20-2011, 08:54 AM
I am quite certain that Windows Vista was never a Cisco standard Operating system.

I'm quite sure the FBI said the OS was Windows Vista.
Yes, I was surprised too.

less0305
04-20-2011, 08:55 AM
Now, wouldn't that go for Nancy, as well?

Excellent!!

TXredhead178
04-20-2011, 09:04 AM
No, but he is probably either running to or from another man...

:silly:

gracielee
04-20-2011, 09:04 AM
Come on.... We're fairly simple. There are very few thoughts that aren't related to sex, sports, food, or beer.

You ripped the words right out of my mouth. :floorlaugh: Except I was going to say food & sex, & his workshop. The order of importance may vary over the years, my husband is 67 now.

:woohoo:

johnfear
04-20-2011, 09:09 AM
I am quite certain that Windows Vista was never a Cisco standard Operating system.

It would have been XP Pro and I believe SP3

gracielee
04-20-2011, 09:12 AM
Hello everyone! :seeya: Have been following this since day 1 when NC was reported missing. Have watched the whole trial and witnessed this forum, compelled to read on. Have read on comment sections on newspaper and TV reports and have been horrified with the apparent campaign to smear the victim, NC and the other victims, her dear friends. Does the Innocence Project give a hoot about her innocent children? I don't think so, and after all, the children ARE absolutely innocent, unlike the brad......:loser: I've never seen this in my life, and think that is horrific. It is as if the abuser has continued abuse, and has 20 pairs of hands typing on his behalf.
(IMHO, and H stands for horrified) Jenny

:wagon:

:welcome4:

:Banane59:

Totally agree with you. If anyone has made Brad Cooper aware of his *popularity* in certain forums, I'm sure he's sitting in his cell smirking away. His arrogant attitude 'of course I'm 'not guilty', cuz I'm way smarter than these country bumpkins." "I'll 'get off', the bi$ch got what she deserved, and I'm off to France and my 'new love.' "

< sarcasm off >

Just the Fax
04-20-2011, 09:12 AM
It would have been XP Pro and I believe SP3

Did you miss the FBI comment about Vista?
You were in court that day, correct?

wuzparts
04-20-2011, 09:19 AM
Finally got through his whole thread.... whew!

One thing I'd like to add. Some people are still critical of the prosecutions inability to PROVE that BC made the 6:40 call implying that bringing it up is just CE or pointless speculation. If proven, it would certainly bolster their case. However, this call is BC's only alibi. By showing several ways it could have been spoofed (or made by his daughter) shows that his alibi is not solid.

johnfear
04-20-2011, 09:22 AM
Did you miss the FBI comment about Vista?
You were in court that day, correct?

My understanding was it was an IBM thinkpad laptop with 64 bit Vista as an underlying operating system that was not approved by Cisco Security, so it had been back revved to XP Pro SP3.

The verbage may have been that it was "overlayed". I don't think that's possible, but I know that the flaws in Vista were beyond much for the Cisco network.

Just the Fax
04-20-2011, 09:23 AM
Very insightful wuzparts.
It's really that simple.:thumb:

Just the Fax
04-20-2011, 09:24 AM
My understanding was it was an IBM thinkpad laptop with 64 bit Vista as an underlying operating system that was not approved by Cisco Security, so it had been back revved to XP Pro SP3.

May be...I know the FBI said it had Windows Vista installed.

less0305
04-20-2011, 09:24 AM
Over 1,400 posts in 24 hours - whoooooohoooooooo. We are on it like stink on doody!!!!

less0305
04-20-2011, 09:27 AM
Finally got through his whole thread.... whew!

One thing I'd like to add. Some people are still critical of the prosecutions inability to PROVE that BC made the 6:40 call implying that bringing it up is just CE or pointless speculation. If proven, it would certainly bolster their case. However, this call is BC's only alibi. By showing several ways it could have been spoofed (or made by his daughter) shows that his alibi is not solid.

Thank you - heck we could speculate that he duct taped his child's finger to the redial button in her sleep or "medicated" sleep. It is entirely possible for that call to have been in some other fashion than for Nancy herself to have made it - I mean, since she was already dead and all. Brad, and Brad alone, needed the alibi.

LAWsy_ME
04-20-2011, 10:00 AM
the brad could have built a press o matic button with an erector set.

whirrrrrrrr................whirrrrrrrrrrrr........ ...whirrrrrr................It WORKS!