scuffmark on wall/suitcase

[Toltec]

Does anyone know when the Ramseys had the basement painted? I ask this because of the scuff mark on the wall. Steve Thomas is questioning John about the last time he went through the basement window.

NE page 133...

ST: Tom, let me just ask John this. Do you sit down and slide through, buttocks first if you will, through a window like that or, do you recall how you went through the actual window, John?

JR: I don't...remember. Seems like, I mean, I don't remember, but I think I would probably have gone in feet first.

ST: Feet first backwards?

JR: Yeah.

ST: And when you went through in your underwear, were you wearing shoes...?

JR: I still had my shoes on, yeah.

ST: And were those with a suit, were they business shoes?

JR: They were probably, probably those shoes.

ST: Okay. And what are those shoes?

JR: Business shoes...shoes that I wear with a suit, just a pair of business shoes, dress shoes.

Okay....if the Ramseys had not painted their basement after the summer of 1996, then it is possible that John is responsible for the scuff mark on the wall under the basement window.

And then John talks about the suitcase. I believe they both claimed that it belonged to JAR. But this is what John says about the suitcase that kind of raised an eyebrow.

NE: page 128

JR: Because (there) was a new Samsonite suitcase sitting right under the window,...

Okay, maybe I'm reading it all wrong but John said it was a NEW suitcase?

[Toltec]

So what has been discovered as evidence of an intruder really is not.

HI-TEK bootprint belongs to Burke.

Hair belongs to Melinda.

Scuff mark under basement window belonging to John.

Palm print on wine cellar door belongs to Patsy.

Pineapple belongs to Ramseys.

Ransom Note pad and pen belonging to Ramseys.

Swiss Army knife belongs to Burke

Paring knife belongs to Ramseys.

Flashlight belongs to John.

So...let's say that that leaves the duct tape and cord. Let's presume that it is a real kidnapping. Duct tape and cord is all the kidnapper needs...but OOPS, he forgets the ransom note. So what does this foreign faction kidnapper do instead? He decides that he wants to molest the victim, strangle her and hit her over the head? Then he decides to write a ransom letter to John?

WHY? Did JonBenet recognize the foreign faction kidnapper?

Now John wants to know WHY....not WHO!

[Seeker]

Good questions Toltec! I think John could have been responsible for that scuffmark as well. Remember he was sneaking into the house in the dark...like that makes sense anyway, so I don't think he would know if he had scuffed the wall or not when he did.

I think you have something switched. Wasn't it reported to be Melinda's palmprint & Patsy's hair? The hair was supposedly from her arm or something?

As for the suitcase I don't know. I would consider any suitcase under a few years old to be "new". Maybe the word was used subjectively.

[FULTON]

I remember reading it was Patsy's arm hair and Melinda's palm print on the door jam.

[SisterSocks]

Tol can you give me a source, for Burke BEING the owner of the Hi tec Boots?
Thanks in advance,
Socks

[Seeker]

Wasn't that reported in the same article as the arm hair and palmprint? If I remember correctly the article said this info came from a "source" not from BPD or DA's office...I seem to remember it being in the Daily Camera...

[sissi]

Before I think about all of this,I am concerned about the police giving out information for so many months saying, NO ONE could fit through that window. It follows "No footprints in the snow",why were they so free to start a media frenzy that would implicate the Ramseys ,when they KNEW both of these statements were false.
JMO IMO

[Britt]

Originally posted by SisterSocks
Tol can you give me a source, for Burke BEING the owner of the Hi tec Boots?
Thanks in advance,
Socks
Didn't that come out in a John Ramsey deposition? Or maybe it was his interview in Atlanta, August 2000... something like that.

[Britt]

Originally posted by sissi
...I am concerned about the police giving out information for so many months saying, NO ONE could fit through that window.
Actually, it wasn't that no one could fit through the window. It was that no one could fit through the window and leave no trace of having been there. It was too small not to have left physical evidence of squeezing through it - y'know, like fibers, swipe marks, fresh tracking from outside, etc.

[Nedthan Johns]

A simple test of John's shoes to the skuff mark would have answered this question, and of course was one of many things NOT done in this case. Given the fact that the Ramsey's didn't even bother to fix the broken window, the chances are very good that this scuff mark belongs to John

LOL what do you want to bet those shoes were stollen by the Ramsey's second intruder along with Patsy's fake jewelry?

[Nedthan Johns]

Toltec: JR: Because (there) was a new Samsonite suitcase sitting right under the window,...

Okay, maybe I'm reading it all wrong but John said it was a NEW suitcase?

Ned; So many things about this case, I keep missing, perhaps that is why it is such a challenge after all these years LOL
Never read that John stated it was a NEW suitcase. IN fact I thought it was an older model. Funny John can remember if the suitcase was new or not, but can't remember the exact events of that morning.

This brings me to several questions. If it was NEW and JAR was still in Georgia, why didn't he have the suitcase with him? And if it was new and not being used, why wouldn't the Ramsey's have packed it for the trip to Mich.? As i have stated many many times before this suitcase is a HUGE clue in this case and most certainly IMO holds the key to the marks on JB's back and face. New American Touristor suitcase, so let me go and research 1995-1996 cases be back

[Nedthan Johns]

The Ramsey's suitcase was similar to this one shown here:
javascript:update('http://i10.ebayimg.com/03/i/00/c1/73/01_1.JPG',%202,%20false);

Unfortunatly you cannot see the other side of that divider in the second shot. The suitcase I had found in a thrift store, when flipped over there was a buckle with flat prongs, which I believe made the marks to JB's back. I cannot prove this of course without a suitcase to compare and have yet to be able to return to this thrift shop to buy it. I have asked before, but now that we have new posters, does anyone have a American Touristor/Samsonite suitcase. FYI Samsonite bought out American Touristor I had found out in my first search efforts. The Ramsey's bag actually has an American Touristor logo on it.

[Nedthan Johns]

some others:

http://newftp.numarkets.com/~numarkets/OCT/27135d.jpg

[Nedthan Johns]

Look closely at the two clasp marks at the top of that case above, even if JB was laid over the suitcase could it be possible to leave imprint marks like those on her back? I believe so

[Nedthan Johns]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2196298274&category=11236

The suitcase measures about 27 1/2" x 18 3/4" x 8".

On the inside there is a elastic pouch on the side. On the other side is a zippered removable pouch. In the center are two cloth ties. This suitcase measures about 24" x 16" x 7".


This is closer to the case that the Ramsey's owned, however, this case is missing the straps that I had observed in the Touristor case in the Thrift shop. The clasp on the buckle was approximately the same distance across as the marks on JB's back. I pushed the buckle into my arm hoping that upon arriving at home an hour later they would still be present to measure. The had disappeared, however I wonder in a child that was dead or had been lying on the buckle for quite some time, would the marks disappear? Now I once had all the information regarding the measurements of the suitcase, but it is all stored away on CD's now and finding it would take days. Since I know first hand that a child JB's age would fit inside the case, due to my experiement, does anyone know off hand the measurements? Tlynn and Britt are always good for digging up info? How bout it Britt? ;)

[Nedthan Johns]

I don't know why I didn't think of this before but I found the American Tourister outlet on line and have e-mailed their customer service department asking them for inside photos of this suitcase if they have them, which I would imagine they would. I also have their toll free phone number to follow up. Any info anyone has on this suitcase please post. Lou Smit didn't have much info on the case when I spoke with him, and the case is still in the hands of the BPD, I had e-mailed Mark Beckner when he was in charge of the case with my theory years ago. He responded and gave thanks, but gave me no further clues.

I am absolutely convinced that JB was placed in that suitcase in the Ramsey household. Most likely Patsy was packing upstairs. I mean come on what millionaire do you know who packs their clothes in trash bags, I didn't buy that chit for nothing. This suitcase was most likely in JAR's room, which might indicate why Lou thinks an intruder was in that room, some disturbance there, carpet control samples were taken. The suitcas could have been means of transporting JB or hiding her from Burke or John or both.

Why is it that one of the experts was quoted as saying that the marks on JB's face appear to be SNAPS? How did he come to this conclusion? And how does a suitcase that the Ramsey's say is normally kept UNDER their stairs make it's way down to the basement and placed under the window? There were many other things the Ramsey's could have grabbed in order to accomplish a set up. Why the suitcase? Because it was USED, part of the crime. Why was it that fibers from the duvet cover inside were said to match those on JB, yet the FBI I believe said they may not be an exact match? Yet Lou believes she was in that case?

Next to the ransom note and pineapple, I believe this suitcase is extremely important to solving this case.

[sissi]

I went back to the picture of Lou Smit going in the basement through the window,it appears there isn't much of a drop. This isn't to say it was impossible to leave a scuff mark,however,going out to achieve footing one would have to place their foot on the wall,coming in it could happen,but it wouldn't be necessary to do so. The clues here are the placement of the suitcase,the contents of the suitcase , not the mark.

Burke owned hi-techs? I can find nowhere,in any of the mainstream reading anything to indicate this is so.

The hair belonged to Melinda? Once again,I can find nothing to indicate this as fact.

If the hi-techs belonged to Burke, he certainly wouldn't have had them on,on Christmas day. If the hair belonged to Melinda,it would serve to take away one clue,nothing more.

The duct tape,stun gun,and cord are HUGE clues.
These are the typical items known to be carried in the commission of a crime,and are often found in the trunks of cars belonging to suspects. The fact that these things can not be sourced is big. IMO JMO

[Barbara]

"...The duct tape,stun gun,and cord are HUGE clues."

The stun gun is nothing more than one persons opinion. Even Lou Smit has backpeddled on this. It is not a fact.

[sissi]

You are right,it is not a fact, it is an assumption ,most of this case is loaded with them. Is anyone willing to list the actual facts? There are about three.
IMO

[Toth]

LOL, Sissi... you are right there.
However the stun gun, cord and tape are hardly mere assumptions. There is a reasonable basis and considerable merit in not quibbling but going forward with the investigation.
If instead of a stun gun it turns out to actualy be trained mosquitoes, I will be in total shock. Meanwhile, please don't say anything about 'one person's assumptions' several agreed on the stun gun theory.
The tape is known to have been recently manufactured and its not really an item that one buys to wrap Christmas presents with.
The cord segment seems unrelated to anything in the house too.

When confronted with what looks like a stun gun, what experienced people say is a stun gun and what would meet the Frye test for testimony in a federal court, I see no reason to keep going on about 'stun gun not proven'.

As for the scuff mark. True. Its not 'proven' in any way. I think it more likely the intruder's entry mark than his exit mark, but I can't prove that it was not there for many months. It certainly appears to be freshly made in all the photos and video clips.

When a suitcase is out of place and positioned near a window and there is a scuff mark on the wall, I see no need to go around cackling "only a theory, not proven". I simply assume its a scuff mark made by the intruder, probably upon entry but possibly upon exiting the premises.

[TLynn]

It was either DOI or the transcription tapes that Patsy said she was stressed while packing for three trips in JAR's room (excuse me, the "Guest Room"). Charlevoix (a last minute decision), the Disney boat trip and JonBenet's upcoming pageant.

Trash bags for the private plane to Michigan is feasible (as it's stated in DOI that John preferred them to suitcases in the plane).

But trash bags on the Disney trip - NO! Suitcases - YES! And they were going to leave immediately upon return from Charlevoix.

I've have not read where any suitcase(s) packed for the boat trip were found.

In the crime scene photos of JAR's room, I see no suitcases at all. JAR's bed is stripped and it is said that similar fibers from his comforter (in the suitcase) were found on JonBenet.

[Toth]

Since they were going to CHX for awhile and thence to the Florida Boat Trip, don't you think that perhaps the suitcases, if any, would have been packed in CHX? The whole purpose of taking flexible containers is that they are more easily stowed in a smaller plane where the pilot wants the weight positioned and make better use of the storage compartments.

[sissi]

I thought the plane had been loaded with the suitcases for the big boat trip,and the charlevoix stuff was just being thrown together. Hadn't John,left the house Christmas morning,around noon to check on the plane and load it?
JMO IMO

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Toth
Since they were going to CHX for awhile and thence to the Florida Boat Trip, don't you think that perhaps the suitcases, if any, would have been packed in CHX? The whole purpose of taking flexible containers is that they are more easily stowed in a smaller plane where the pilot wants the weight positioned and make better use of the storage compartments.

If John Ramsey conveyed to his family that they ought to carry clothing only in trash bags for trips in the private plane, then John Andrew and Melinda had to fly from Georgia to Minnesota with their clothes in trash bags, correct? The dot is never connected in this regard, but John Ramsey was to pick up John Andrew and Melinda, and then fly them and their luggage from Minneapolis to Charlevoix in his plane. But what kind of luggage was being carried by the children? If standard suitcases, then John did not mind having standard suitcases on board his plane, and Patsy could have packed just the same as JA and Melinda were being permitted to. Perhaps this issue is one of the clues that piqued the interest of investigators early on. If Patsy claimed that John wanted only trash bags carried as luggage on his plane, but then John Andrew and Melinda show up in Boulder fresh from the airport with regular suitcases they were planning to put onto John's plane, such would show Patsy's words were not necessarily to be relied on.

There is no doubt that Patsy was packing clothing in suitcases on December 25th. A crime scene picture of John Andrew's room clearly shows a suitcase on the bed, overlaid and surrounded by what appear to be items of JonBenet's clothing. This would be consistent with John's statement that Patsy was packing for the Hawaiian Tropic pageant, though the amount of clothing appears to be inconsistent for a simple Sunday afternoon pageant. And since the Hawaiian Tropic contest is strictly swimwear, it would have made more sense for Patsy to pack for that pageant in a couple of small trash bags even JonBenet could have carried by herself.

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jar_clutter.jpg

[Nedthan Johns]

Sissi: Burke owned hi-techs? I can find nowhere,in any of the mainstream reading anything to indicate this is so.

Ned: It was said the boot print could have been left months even years prior, there is NO way to date the boot print.

The hair belonged to Melinda? Once again,I can find nothing to indicate this as fact.

Ned: The "hair" was determined to belong to Patsy and was a primary arm hair.

The duct tape,stun gun,and cord are HUGE clues.
These are the typical items known to be carried in the commission of a crime,and are often found in the trunks of cars belonging to suspects. The fact that these things can not be sourced is big. IMO JMO

Ned: The Ramsey used both items however just because none were found in their home the day of the crime does not make them innocent. The tape was a HUGE clue because it was only sold in ONE store in all of Boulder or the surrounding area. Patsy shopped their one month prior to the crime and bought items both matching the price of the rope and tape. Patsy was a painter and both items were something a painter would use, ironically so was her paintbrush.

[shamu]

Originally posted by why_nutt
If John Ramsey conveyed to his family that they ought to carry clothing only in trash bags for trips in the private plane, then John Andrew and Melinda had to fly from Georgia to Minnesota with their clothes in trash bags, correct? The dot is never connected in this regard, but John Ramsey was to pick up John Andrew and Melinda, and then fly them and their luggage from Minneapolis to Charlevoix in his plane. But what kind of luggage was being carried by the children? If standard suitcases, then John did not mind having standard suitcases on board his plane, and Patsy could have packed just the same as JA and Melinda were being permitted to. Perhaps this issue is one of the clues that piqued the interest of investigators early on. If Patsy claimed that John wanted only trash bags carried as luggage on his plane, but then John Andrew and Melinda show up in Boulder fresh from the airport with regular suitcases they were planning to put onto John's plane, such would show Patsy's words were not necessarily to be relied on.
http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jar_clutter.jpg
I would say the opposite: there is only so much space for luggage in a small plane. If they knew the big kids had luggage, they knew extra Ramsey stuff would need to go in trash bags if it was to fit.

[Nedthan Johns]

Sissi: You are right,it is not a fact, it is an assumption ,most of this case is loaded with them. Is anyone willing to list the actual facts? There are about three.

Ned: Sure I am good for this one

Fact Pineapple consistent with FRESH pineapple was found in JB's small intestine, said to be the last thing she had eaten. Fresh pineapple was found on the kitchen counter of the Ramsey home with both Patsy's and Burkes prints on them.

Fact: Burkes red swiss army knife was used to cut the rope used to garrote JB. The knife was hidden in an upstairs cupboard where only Linda and Patsy knew the whereabouts. It was found in the basement the day JB was found.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey cannot be ruled out as the author of the ransom note

Fact: It was written with her pad and a sharpie pen, which was placed back in it's container.

Fact: a mag flashlight was found left out on the counter, with NO prints on either the flashlight or batteries. The Ramsey's owned one JUST LIKE it, but claim the could not find it.

Fact: Red fibers found on the sticky side of the duct tape, on the garrote, and in the paint tote were "consistant" with the red jacket Patsy wore the evening and the following day however police cannot be sure if the jacket Patsy turned over a year after the crime was in fact the one she wore the evening of the crime. Patsy claimed she had never been down in that basement.

Fact: Fibers matching John Ramsey's shirt were found on JB's underwear.

Fact: The DNA is too degraded and old to be successfully used to identify a suspect, it can only be used to rule one out and by most experts opinion including Dr. Henry Lee, world renowned Foresnsic Scientist, the DNA is most likely NOT connected to the case and could have been deposited a day or even a week or more prior to the murder.

Fact: Burke Ramsey stated that Jon Benet was awake and in fact carried in gifts the evening she was murdered. Contridicting his parents statement that she was asleep.

Fact: Although Lou Smit brought forth ONE explaination for the strange markings to JB's face and back, his theory was quickly de-bunked by the makers of the air taser stun gun itself, by a statement which they claim their device would not have created marks similar to JB's and in fact the measurements are off by a couple of mm. There is NO conclusive evidence that a stun gun was used in the commission of this crime.

Fact: Fibers on JB consistant yet challenged by the FBI may have matched the duvet cover inside the suitcase found in the basement

Fact: JB was redressed and wrapped papoose like, which is indicative of the murderer knowing their victim. She was also wipped down.

Fact: JB died from aphixiation, and crainal head truama. No one knows for certain which came first.

Fact: There is NO conclusive evidence that there were nail marks from JB grasping at the garrote.

Fact: Meyer forgot to take a body temp. therefore he could only estimate TOD. He used contimated clippers on her nails, and did not swab any of her marks to her face back or leg.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey seems to not recall almost the entire evening or prior day of the murder, along with John Ramsey.

Fact: Some experts obtained by the BPD determined that JB's vaginal injuries were consistant with prior molestations.

Fact: Dr. Bueff NEVER did a vaginal check on JB during ANY of her office visits.

Fact: JB was a constant bed wetter and also left fecal matter. Both are consistant with signs of a child that is being molested.

Fact: JB was dressed up and paraded by her mother in beauty pageants to appear far older than her tender 6 years of age.


I could go on, but that's more than 3.

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: If instead of a stun gun it turns out to actualy be trained mosquitoes, I will be in total shock. Meanwhile, please don't say anything about 'one person's assumptions' several agreed on the stun gun theory.

Ned: Very true, however many others disagreed. and although once a believer myself, I was convinced that the actual makers of the air taser stun gun might actually know how their products work. They were not at all impressed with Lou's findings and in fact it is very well known that the actual measurements to an air taser DO NOT match either sets of marks on JB. My personal opinion and observations looking at the photographs is that the marks on the back are most certainly IMPRESSIONS made in her back from lying directly on something. In fact this stun gun myth has been going on for so long now, I might just buy an air taser and stun gun myself.

Toth: The tape is known to have been recently manufactured and its not really an item that one buys to wrap Christmas presents with.

Ned: But oddly enough, black duct tape is JUST what the pageantry arena uses and JB had an upcoming event. Black tape is also used in painting, and Patsy was a painter.

Toth: The cord segment seems unrelated to anything in the house too.

Ned: Although JB is seen in an outfit that Patsy sewed using cord. Cord was also something Patsy used to carry her paintings to and from class.

Toth: When confronted with what looks like a stun gun, what experienced people say is a stun gun and what would meet the Frye test for testimony in a federal court, I see no reason to keep going on about 'stun gun not proven'.

Ned: I would LOVE to see that testimony stacked up against the own manufactors words, and that forensically without the body there is NO conclusive evidence of such. Toth if I find this buckle of which I speak, I am about 90% certain it can create similar if not exactly the marks in which we see on JB's back. Toth do you have any photos of the INSIDE of the suitcase which was found in the basement? Were any taken at the crime scene?

Toth: As for the scuff mark. True. Its not 'proven' in any way. I think it more likely the intruder's entry mark than his exit mark, but I can't prove that it was not there for many months. It certainly appears to be freshly made in all the photos and video clips.

Ned: I think the skuff mark is a non issue, could easilly be debated as Johns mark from prior enterance of the home. So besides a couple of pop corn flakes and the supposed stun gun marks what other evidence is there of an intruder?

Toth: When a suitcase is out of place and positioned near a window and there is a scuff mark on the wall, I see no need to go around cackling "only a theory, not proven". I simply assume its a scuff mark made by the intruder, probably upon entry but possibly upon exiting the premises.

Ned: And I can just as easily come to the conclusion that John Ramsey made that skuff mark months prior, along with breaking the glass. The suitcase fits in nicely with the Ramsey's packing that night for a trip to Mich. Oddly enough they were packing their things in trash bags. Now Toth tell me if that suitcase was usually kept UNDER the stair case how is it that some intruder not familiar with that home, found it and thought hmmmmm, this would made for a good step ladder to get the hell out of the house.

[Nedthan Johns]

Tlynn: But trash bags on the Disney trip - NO! Suitcases - YES! And they were going to leave immediately upon return from Charlevoix

Ned: Good point TLynn. I find this odd that an investigator like Lou has ignored this sort of common sense evidence, yet he can so easily come to the conclusion that an intruder most likley made that skuff mark on the wall when entering and searched under the stairs for something to step onto to exit the home.

I mean with that sort of rationality, does it really matter that the Ramsey's directly contridict themselves in their OWN book?

I would also like to know just how many packed trash bags were found that morning.

[Nedthan Johns]

Why Nutt: Thanks for the picture of JAR's room. Does anyone else see anything wrong with that pic? Seems like too many clothes pilled in that suitcase to fit. Does it look like to anyone else that maybe perhaps there is a suitcase missing??????????

Perhaps the one downstairs? Look at the folded clothes to the left of the suitcase, they almost look like there were TAKEN OUT of a suitcase, not ready to go in. And does the suitcase on JAR's bed MATCH the one found in the basement? By John's own statement the case found in the basement was NEW. Now WHY would Patsy only pack part of the families clothes in only ONE suitcase?????? The fact that only one case if found in JAR's room, and is not anywhere near being packed correctly, tells me several things. ONe that Patsy was most likely packing that night, and two my COMMON sense tells me with that many clothes there was most likely 2 suitcases. Thanks Why Nutt this photo will come in handy. I need to blow up the suitcase

[Nedthan Johns]

Now I did a poor job of blowing up the photo, however this is what a see, folded T shirts appearing to be mens to the far right. A dress back and white, possibly JB's on top of the suitcase. More folded items appear to be "light weight" and not appropriate to wear in Mich in the middle of winter, so I would say this bag was most likely being packed for the Disney trip. Now were the Ramsey's returning to Colorado before going on this trip or were they traveling straight there from Michigan?

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Ned: But oddly enough, black duct tape is JUST what the pageantry arena uses and JB had an upcoming event. Black tape is also used in painting, and Patsy was a painter.

Others have made the point, and it is an entirely valid and likely one, that Patsy would have had JonBenet practice her pageant turns and walks using black tape as a marker on the floor, just as the pageants themselves used. But when you mention black tape in painting, it causes a thought I had not had before. The black tape is known even by Ramsey defenders to be insufficiently sticky to serve as a good mouth gag, but by the same token, its non-sticky nature would have made it a very good masking tape for painting, and yes, Patsy did a great deal of painting. So she could have bought it in the weeks before Christmas, using it for, well, perhaps this object, a prop chimney for JonBenet's performance as a Christmas gift:

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/redhat.jpg

The tape could have been used to mask out the mortar lines on the chimney. Once painted over, the tape would have been removed and thrown away, leaving whatever small amount of the roll was left over. This theory would account for why Patsy was known to have bought something with the same price as the black tape at McGuckins.

[Toltec]

Patsy stated to LE that she was packing 3 suitcases for the trip to Orlando in JAR's room. She stated that her suitcase was upstairs in her dressing room.

It is possible that one of the suitcases could have come from under JAR's bed? Perhaps Patsy needed to borrow JAR's suitcase for the trip to Orlando.

Patsy claimed that they were to return to Boulder the day before the trip to Charlevoix. Why take their packed suitcases for Orlando to Charlevoix?

One of the crime scene photos of the spiral staircase shows a plastic bag at the foot of those stairs. I wonder if that is the bag that was to be taken to Charlevoix?

This is not fact...but I read somewhere that Fleet White told LE "What if I told you that Burke owned a pair of Hi-Teks?

I also read somewhere that Burke and one of his friends testified to the Grand Jury that he does own Hi-Teks.

As far as the black duct tape goes...black duct tape was found taped to one of JonBenet's portraits in her bedroom. ST claims that the tape did not match the one used on JB. I would assume that the tape used on the portrait was also black.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Sissi: You are right,it is not a fact, it is an assumption ,most of this case is loaded with them. Is anyone willing to list the actual facts? There are about three.

Ned: Sure I am good for this one

Fact Pineapple consistent with FRESH pineapple was found in JB's small intestine, said to be the last thing she had eaten. Fresh pineapple was found on the kitchen counter of the Ramsey home with both Patsy's and Burkes prints on them.

Fact: Burkes red swiss army knife was used to cut the rope used to garrote JB. The knife was hidden in an upstairs cupboard where only Linda and Patsy knew the whereabouts. It was found in the basement the day JB was found.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey cannot be ruled out as the author of the ransom note

Fact: It was written with her pad and a sharpie pen, which was placed back in it's container.

Fact: a mag flashlight was found left out on the counter, with NO prints on either the flashlight or batteries. The Ramsey's owned one JUST LIKE it, but claim the could not find it.

Fact: Red fibers found on the sticky side of the duct tape, on the garrote, and in the paint tote were "consistant" with the red jacket Patsy wore the evening and the following day however police cannot be sure if the jacket Patsy turned over a year after the crime was in fact the one she wore the evening of the crime. Patsy claimed she had never been down in that basement.

Fact: Fibers matching John Ramsey's shirt were found on JB's underwear.

Fact: The DNA is too degraded and old to be successfully used to identify a suspect, it can only be used to rule one out and by most experts opinion including Dr. Henry Lee, world renowned Foresnsic Scientist, the DNA is most likely NOT connected to the case and could have been deposited a day or even a week or more prior to the murder.

Fact: Burke Ramsey stated that Jon Benet was awake and in fact carried in gifts the evening she was murdered. Contridicting his parents statement that she was asleep.

Fact: Although Lou Smit brought forth ONE explaination for the strange markings to JB's face and back, his theory was quickly de-bunked by the makers of the air taser stun gun itself, by a statement which they claim their device would not have created marks similar to JB's and in fact the measurements are off by a couple of mm. There is NO conclusive evidence that a stun gun was used in the commission of this crime.

Fact: Fibers on JB consistant yet challenged by the FBI may have matched the duvet cover inside the suitcase found in the basement

Fact: JB was redressed and wrapped papoose like, which is indicative of the murderer knowing their victim. She was also wipped down.

Fact: JB died from aphixiation, and crainal head truama. No one knows for certain which came first.

Fact: There is NO conclusive evidence that there were nail marks from JB grasping at the garrote.

Fact: Meyer forgot to take a body temp. therefore he could only estimate TOD. He used contimated clippers on her nails, and did not swab any of her marks to her face back or leg.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey seems to not recall almost the entire evening or prior day of the murder, along with John Ramsey.

Fact: Some experts obtained by the BPD determined that JB's vaginal injuries were consistant with prior molestations.

Fact: Dr. Bueff NEVER did a vaginal check on JB during ANY of her office visits.

Fact: JB was a constant bed wetter and also left fecal matter. Both are consistant with signs of a child that is being molested.

Fact: JB was dressed up and paraded by her mother in beauty pageants to appear far older than her tender 6 years of age.


I could go on, but that's more than 3.

DITTO ... as in GO NETHAN!!! -- YOU RULE IMHO!!!

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Sissi: You are right,it is not a fact, it is an assumption ,most of this case is loaded with them. Is anyone willing to list the actual facts? There are about three.

Ned: Sure I am good for this one

Fact Pineapple consistent with FRESH pineapple was found in JB's small intestine, said to be the last thing she had eaten. Fresh pineapple was found on the kitchen counter of the Ramsey home with both Patsy's and Burkes prints on them.

Fact: Burkes red swiss army knife was used to cut the rope used to garrote JB. The knife was hidden in an upstairs cupboard where only Linda and Patsy knew the whereabouts. It was found in the basement the day JB was found.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey cannot be ruled out as the author of the ransom note

Fact: It was written with her pad and a sharpie pen, which was placed back in it's container.

Fact: a mag flashlight was found left out on the counter, with NO prints on either the flashlight or batteries. The Ramsey's owned one JUST LIKE it, but claim the could not find it.

Fact: Red fibers found on the sticky side of the duct tape, on the garrote, and in the paint tote were "consistant" with the red jacket Patsy wore the evening and the following day however police cannot be sure if the jacket Patsy turned over a year after the crime was in fact the one she wore the evening of the crime. Patsy claimed she had never been down in that basement.

Fact: Fibers matching John Ramsey's shirt were found on JB's underwear.

Fact: The DNA is too degraded and old to be successfully used to identify a suspect, it can only be used to rule one out and by most experts opinion including Dr. Henry Lee, world renowned Foresnsic Scientist, the DNA is most likely NOT connected to the case and could have been deposited a day or even a week or more prior to the murder.

Fact: Burke Ramsey stated that Jon Benet was awake and in fact carried in gifts the evening she was murdered. Contridicting his parents statement that she was asleep.

Fact: Although Lou Smit brought forth ONE explaination for the strange markings to JB's face and back, his theory was quickly de-bunked by the makers of the air taser stun gun itself, by a statement which they claim their device would not have created marks similar to JB's and in fact the measurements are off by a couple of mm. There is NO conclusive evidence that a stun gun was used in the commission of this crime.

Fact: Fibers on JB consistant yet challenged by the FBI may have matched the duvet cover inside the suitcase found in the basement

Fact: JB was redressed and wrapped papoose like, which is indicative of the murderer knowing their victim. She was also wipped down.

Fact: JB died from aphixiation, and crainal head truama. No one knows for certain which came first.

Fact: There is NO conclusive evidence that there were nail marks from JB grasping at the garrote.

Fact: Meyer forgot to take a body temp. therefore he could only estimate TOD. He used contimated clippers on her nails, and did not swab any of her marks to her face back or leg.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey seems to not recall almost the entire evening or prior day of the murder, along with John Ramsey.

Fact: Some experts obtained by the BPD determined that JB's vaginal injuries were consistant with prior molestations.

Fact: Dr. Bueff NEVER did a vaginal check on JB during ANY of her office visits.

Fact: JB was a constant bed wetter and also left fecal matter. Both are consistant with signs of a child that is being molested.

Fact: JB was dressed up and paraded by her mother in beauty pageants to appear far older than her tender 6 years of age.


I could go on, but that's more than 3.

TOTALLY DITTO!...It's about the facts in "justice for JonBenet" IMHO!!! ...see it for what it is!!!

[Blazeboy3]

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive203/StayTea/ST48hours.htm

The JonBenet Ramsey case.
Did anyone see that hour program, at 8 pm. on CBS?

The investigator that changed his mind was on there. (Lou Smits)

I have to say I always thought the parents were involved, due to profiling experience of past similar crimes. But since other recent cases have now supposed that there may have been an intruder known somewhat to child victim, and had assailant entering a bedroom in the night and carrying off a child, I am finally beginning to wonder. (Also, in the past...Polly Klaas)

They showed the garrot and it was pretty professional looking.
They showed a *scuff* mark on the wall under the basement window, and below that the suitcase that could have been a foothold. Smits actually climbed up and out through the window.

[TLynn]

Why_Nutt

I've never seen that pix before - it was always the one with the bed stripped and (looked like) a black bag at the foot of the bed AND I don't see the bed ruffle disturbed (per Smit with the theory of intruder hiding under bed).

Geez, just when you think you've seen/heard it all. All these years, I thought the comforter was stripped from the bed and put in the suitcase. There were two beds, however.

Now, I'm confused. I have to go take a hot bath.

So, JonBenet wouldn't have been on the bed to get the fibers - she must've been in the suitcase at some point or...

A long hot bath.

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by TLynn
Why_Nutt

I've never seen that pix before - it was always the one with the bed stripped and (looked like) a black bag at the foot of the bed AND I don't see the bed ruffle disturbed (per Smit with the theory of intruder hiding under bed).

That picture is part of Lou Smit's famous Powerpoint presentation. It was broadcast during an episode of Court TV's program THE SYSTEM featuring Smit. The picture you are familiar with was not a crime scene photo as this one is; the stripped bed photo was taken by Ramsey investigators well after the BPD investigators had gathered up all the evidence they wanted and had released the house back to the Ramseys.

If you want to see the laughably-disturbed ruffle Smit thinks is so damning, here it is:

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jardisturbedruffle.jpg

(sarcasm on)Of course, that ruffle could only have been disturbed by an intruder, because it has that special intruder essence so immediately identifiable as not belonging to ruffles disturbed by the Ramsey family themselves. Such as this ruffle:

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jbrruffle1.jpg

Or this ruffle:

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jbrruffle2.jpg

No, the ruffle on John Andrew's bed was meant to survive having a plumb line dropped next to it and be perfect vertical in its orientation, and the fact that it was not is the noose with with the intruder shall eventually have hanged himself. (sarcasm off)

[Nehemiah]

Ned, you said..."Fact: Burke Ramsey stated that Jon Benet was awake and in fact carried in gifts the evening she was murdered. Contridicting his parents statement that she was asleep."

Can you cite a source for this? I have been thinking about something and this would add to my thoughts.

Thanks, Neh

[Islander]

Why_nutt: Thank you for the picture showing the suitcase and clothes on JAR’s bed. I don’t remember seeing it before. It convinces me of one thing. No half way intelligent intruder would dare hide under that bed as Lou Smit suggests when there is every indication that a Ramsey would reenter the room to finish packing. There are a lot of clothes on the bed, and it would take more than a few minutes to finish packing. All that time an intruder would have to remain totally still and quiet or risk being detected. It’s kind of difficult taking the offense when you are trapped under a bed.

[Britt]

Originally posted by Nehemiah
Ned, you said..."Fact: Burke Ramsey stated that Jon Benet was awake and in fact carried in gifts the evening she was murdered. Contridicting his parents statement that she was asleep."

Can you cite a source for this? I have been thinking about something and this would add to my thoughts.
I'm not Ned, but I think he'll let me answer this one for him. :)

That's in Thomas's book. In Burke's June 1998 interview:

He said that his sister fell asleep in the car on the way home but awakened to help carry presents into the house of a friend. When they got home, JonBenét walked in slowly and went up the spiral stairs to bed, just ahead of Patsy. p. 355, paperback

[Toltec]

John says it was a NEW suitcase....Patsy says it was an OLD BLUE SAMSONITE. She does not use it...she uses the one with the rollers.

Patsy claims that she last saw the suitcase near the boiler room.

John claims that he brought the suitcase downstairs.

Okay...according to Patsy, the OLD BLUE SUITCASE was last seen by her near the boiler room.

WHO MOVED IT TO THE BASEMENT WINDOW AREA?

[Nedthan Johns]

Now if I recall my conversation with Lou correctly, John Ramsey stated the suitcase was kept UNDER the stairs

[Nedthan Johns]

Britt ;) You always have the answers. Up the spiral staircase on her way to bed, but according to John Burke and he stayed up to work on a model? is that correct. So was the last time Burke saw JB was on the way to bed? If so, this would confirm that JB in fact went to bed, but the altercation occured after Burke went to bed, I would love to ask Burke when the last time was that he saw his sister.

[Nedthan Johns]

Toltec: Patsy stated to LE that she was packing 3 suitcases for the trip to Orlando in JAR's room. She stated that her suitcase was upstairs in her dressing room.

Ned; I only see 2 suitcases in JAR's room, one on the bed, and one that may be in that stripped chair. God who let this woman decorate? Where is the third?

It is possible that one of the suitcases could have come from under JAR's bed? Perhaps Patsy needed to borrow JAR's suitcase for the trip to Orlando.

Ned: Would make sense and may be why the dust ruffle is ruffled.

Patsy claimed that they were to return to Boulder the day before the trip to Charlevoix. Why take their packed suitcases for Orlando to Charlevoix?

Ned: Why even pack them ahead of time if they had a day to do so?

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Toltec: Patsy stated to LE that she was packing 3 suitcases for the trip to Orlando in JAR's room. She stated that her suitcase was upstairs in her dressing room.

Ned; I only see 2 suitcases in JAR's room, one on the bed, and one that may be in that stripped chair. God who let this woman decorate? Where is the third?

It is possible that one of the suitcases could have come from under JAR's bed? Perhaps Patsy needed to borrow JAR's suitcase for the trip to Orlando.

Ned: Would make sense and may be why the dust ruffle is ruffled.

Patsy claimed that they were to return to Boulder the day before the trip to Charlevoix. Why take their packed suitcases for Orlando to Charlevoix?

Ned: Why even pack them ahead of time if they had a day to do so?

IMHO...she should have had an "automatic coffee maker" going ...just to be AHEAD of thing(s)?...common sense...???

[SisterSocks]

With their money I' m surprised they didn't have Juan Valdiaz himself brewing coffee. While His Donkey sat in the yard like the Buck Deer, that John and Patsy saw ,the last time they visted the boulder house before they bought it . In fact Pats said this must be the place the Buck stops here.... source--DOI

[ajt400]

Where did you here the hair was Melinda's? The hair found in the suitcase was JonBenet's

Also, you listed tons of forensics pointing to JonBenet's parents, but what about the duct tape used to cover her mouth or the rope used to bind her? That has not been linked to either parent, and they have nothing to show that they once bought or owned these things.

All the evidence you have pointed out don't necessarily point to John and Patsy, it says that this (the actual murder itself) was a crime of opportunity, not of careful planning.

[Nedthan Johns]

ajt: the fact that the duct tape was only sold at the McGaukins store and Patsy shopped their one month prior and bought items that cost the same as the tape and the rope yet can't remember what those items were, certainly makes it possible that she was the one that purchased these items. This was NO crime of opportunity, had it been the pedophile would have had his way with his victim or taken her for prolonged activity. This child was being molested prior to the crime, the murder was accidental and then made to look like someone else committed it to cover the sexual molestation.