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Doyle
10-07-2003, 06:23 AM
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/7391.htm

Doyle
10-10-2003, 06:01 AM
JUDGE DEALS BLOW TO ETAN SUSPECT
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/7661.htm

Airplane
10-10-2003, 07:26 PM
Thanks for the updates on Etan Patz, Doyle. I appreciate it.

Doyle
10-11-2003, 06:16 AM
Etan vanished during a two-block walk to his school bus on May 25, 1979, and later became the first missing child to be pictured on the side of a milk carton.

all about Etan Patz disappearance.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/etan_patz/

Mom who cares
05-08-2004, 06:33 PM
Way to go, judge, let's give some closure to Etan's poor family.

VespaElf
06-02-2004, 07:38 PM
Tonight,6/2/04 at 8 pm EST on 60 Minutes II they are doing on story on the Etan Patz case if anyone is interested.............

tybee204
02-23-2005, 12:22 PM
02-08-2005, 11:56 AM
messiecake
Support Our Troops! Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,079

Etan Patz Family Settlement

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know we have an Etan thread here but I thought Id start off the new "Discussion" forum!





Judge orders inmate to pay $2 million to family of missing N.Y. boy



NEW YORK (AP) — An imprisoned child molester and former mental patient was ordered to pay $2 million to the family of a 6-year-old boy whose 1979 disappearance helped give rise to the national movement to publicize the cases of missing children.

The judge who ordered Jose R. Ramos to pay the money also ruled in May 2004 that Ramos was responsible for Etan Patz' death after the inmate ignored orders to answer deposition questions for a lawyer for the boy's parents.

Brian O'Dwyer, lawyer for Stanley and Julia Patz, had tried unsuccessfully to interview Ramos at the Pennsylvania prison where he is serving a 20-year sentence for sexually abusing an 8-year-old boy.

O'Dwyer said Ramos, who apparently has no assets, was saying he planned to sell his story.........................................
http://courttv.com/news/2005/0208/missing_ap.html




This scumbag REALLY does have a mental problem if he thinks anyone would buy his story or care to read it!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope the settlement gives some comfort to the Patz family.I know in the Etan thread I detailed a recent TV appearance by Mr.Patz and I know theres no such thing as closure but I pray this offers something to them.
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#2 02-08-2005, 12:58 PM
2sisters
Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 79

I know the money wont help ease the pain on their sons dissappearance but the ruling may keep this dirtbag from selling his story. Im sure his story will tell how he was wrongley accused and he just loves children and is so hurt over all of this and would never hurt a child. Im sure now some criminal rights group will come to his aid so he can make a buck off of his story. Im sorry to be so angry but how dare he think of selling his story for money. As if he was a victim. The only victims are the kids he hurt and killed and their families who will never truly heal.

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#3 02-09-2005, 08:41 AM
emma l
UK GIRL Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: London
Posts: 196

Theres a very famous case over here in the UK with a smilar vein actually. Mary Bell murdered a child when she was 10 (I think) and served her jail time. She was then rehoused and given a new identity and a gag was put on the tabloids to prevent them from revealing what it was..........

A year or so ago some tabloid newspapers took her to court again to fight for the right to reveal her new identity to the public. They claimed that since she had violated her own gagging order by seling her story to an author, then any previous ruling would not stand.

However she was granted anonimity again for an interesting reason. She now has a child of her own, who until the recent fuss, had no idea of her mothers real identity. The courts ruled that this child had a right to privacy, no matter how Mary chose to sell her story...........


I found these articles... http://www.guardian.co.uk/child/sto...,960690,00.html

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorio...ll/index_1.html

Its a very interesting argument. Ask any British adult who Mary Bell is and they will know her name. But the scary thing is she could live right next door to me.

WARNING- the second of these articles is very upsetting and graphic

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#4 02-09-2005, 08:49 AM
messiecake
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OOhhh Emma thank you for the links!
I don't know much about Mary Bell but have heard her name brought up when James Bulger is mentioned.


I find U.K law so confusing !
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#5 02-09-2005, 12:05 PM
SewingDeb
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 254

Quote:
Originally Posted by emma l
Theres a very famous case over here in the UK with a smilar vein actually. Mary Bell murdered a child when she was 10 (I think) and served her jail time. She was then rehoused and given a new identity and a gag was put on the tabloids to prevent them from revealing what it was..........

A year or so ago some tabloid newspapers took her to court again to fight for the right to reveal her new identity to the public. They claimed that since she had violated her own gagging order by seling her story to an author, then any previous ruling would not stand.

However she was granted anonimity again for an interesting reason. She now has a child of her own, who until the recent fuss, had no idea of her mothers real identity. The courts ruled that this child had a right to privacy, no matter how Mary chose to sell her story...........


I found these articles... http://www.guardian.co.uk/child/sto...,960690,00.html

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorio...ll/index_1.html

Its a very interesting argument. Ask any British adult who Mary Bell is and they will know her name. But the scary thing is she could live right next door to me.

WARNING- the second of these articles is very upsetting and graphic



That one is a true sociopath. I doubt that she has changed.
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#6 02-10-2005, 09:16 PM
wheatongirl
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3

`The Rabbi who performed my marriage ceremony is/was Etan Patz uncle. Rabbi Patz is actually my sister-in-law's rabbi and she says he never discusses the case. I think the family has been so traumatized that it's as if the disappearance/murder happened yesterday instead of 20 years ago. I don't blame them. I don't think you can ever get over an experience like that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by messiecake
I know we have an Etan thread here but I thought Id start off the new "Discussion" forum!





Judge orders inmate to pay $2 million to family of missing N.Y. boy



NEW YORK (AP) — An imprisoned child molester and former mental patient was ordered to pay $2 million to the family of a 6-year-old boy whose 1979 disappearance helped give rise to the national movement to publicize the cases of missing children.

The judge who ordered Jose R. Ramos to pay the money also ruled in May 2004 that Ramos was responsible for Etan Patz' death after the inmate ignored orders to answer deposition questions for a lawyer for the boy's parents.

Brian O'Dwyer, lawyer for Stanley and Julia Patz, had tried unsuccessfully to interview Ramos at the Pennsylvania prison where he is serving a 20-year sentence for sexually abusing an 8-year-old boy.

O'Dwyer said Ramos, who apparently has no assets, was saying he planned to sell his story.........................................
http://courttv.com/news/2005/0208/missing_ap.html




This scumbag REALLY does have a mental problem if he thinks anyone would buy his story or care to read it!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope the settlement gives some comfort to the Patz family.I know in the Etan thread I detailed a recent TV appearance by Mr.Patz and I know theres no such thing as closure but I pray this offers something to them.


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#7 02-17-2005, 12:52 PM
meggilyweggily
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Arkansas some times of the year, Ohio other times
Posts: 49


No, you can't. Having a missing loved one has got to be one of the worst things in the world. If they died, at least you could bury them and mourn them and get on with your life. But if they're missing and you don't know what happened to them, you're forever left hanging.

I don't have any experience with a missing loved one, thank goodness, but the closest I can come to it is when a good friend of mine became very ill and they weren't sure if he was going to make it. I spent a week with a perpetual stomachache, worried sick about him. Then I found out that he was going to die. And, strangely, I felt better, because now at least I knew what to expect. Knowledge, even dreadful knowledge, is better than uncertainty. My friend did die a few days later and I'm glad it at least didn't take me by surprise.

Jose Ramos will probably never be able to pay the money -- he's broke. But the symbolism is important I think.
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mysteriew
06-15-2005, 10:14 PM
Manhattan attorney hopeful Leslie Crocker Snyder declared yesterday that if elected, she would convene agrand jury in the case of Etan Patz, the SoHo boy who disappeared in 1979.
Snyder's announcement came as Etan's father, Stanley Patz, appeared at a City Hall news conference.

Etan was 6 when he vanished while walking to his school bus stop, in a case that shocked the city. He was declared legally dead in 2001.

In May 2004, his family won a New York civil case that found Jose Antonio Ramos, who is in a Pennsylvania prison for an unrelated child sex-abuse conviction, responsible for the boy's death.

Ramos had dated Etan's baby-sitter.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/story/318989p-272787c.html

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed
02-28-2008, 02:02 AM
http://www.charleyproject.org/images/p/patz_etan2.jpg http://www.charleyproject.org/images/p/patz_etan_ap.jpg
Missing Since: May 25, 1979 from New York City, New York
Classification: Non-Family Abduction
Date Of Birth: October 9, 1972
Age: 6 years old
Height and Weight: 3'4, 50 pounds
Distinguishing Characteristics: Caucasian male. Light brown to blond hair, blue eyes. Patz's name is pronounced "Ay-tahn." He may use the alias Etan Ben Haim.
Clothing/Jewelry Description: A black "Future Flight Captain" pilot cap pulled low over his eyes, a blue corduroy jacket, blue pants and blue sneakers with fluorescent stripes.

Details of Disappearance

Patz was last seen walking to his school bus stop in New York City, New York on May 25, 1979 at approximately 8:00 a.m.. His family resided in an apartment on Prince Street near West Broadway. The stop was on Prince Street and Wooster Streets. This was the first time Patz's parents allowed him to walk to the bus stop alone. He has never been heard again. Patz was carrying a dollar for a soft drink, and a blue cloth bag imprinted with elephants at the time of his disappearance. His mother watched him out the window until he crossed Wooster Street, 150 yards from the bus stop. He has never been heard from again.

Patz's bus arrived at the stop at 8:10 a.m. as usual and picked up a number of children, but Patz was not among the group. Patz's first-grade teacher at Independence Plaza School realized he was absent but did not report it to the principal, so Patz's parents did not realize he was missing until he failed to come home at 3:15 p.m. that day. They immediately notified the authorities.

On May 27, two days after Patz's disappearance, a witness told police that she had seen a boy matching Patz's description talking to a suspicious-looking man on the corner of Prince and Wooster streets. Under hypnosis, the witness described the man as about 40 years old, skinny, freckled, and with dyed blond hair. She was uncertain, however, whether the boy she saw was actually Patz.

A known pedophile named Jose Antonio Ramos has been the prime suspect in Patz's disappearance for many years. A photograph of him is shown below this case summary. Ramos was a drifter with mental problems who was known for assaulting young boys as he crossed the United States in the 1970's. He tended to prefer boys with light hair, like Patz. Ramos was in New York City at the time of Patz's 1979 disappearance. He also dated a former babysitter employed by the Patz family; he was suspected of stalking the woman before Patz vanished. Police believe Ramos may have seen Patz accompanied by the woman, therein inadvertently leading Ramos to the child.

Ramos claimed he was with a boy matching Patz's description the day the boy disappeared. He described Patz's sneakers with their distinctive fluorescent stripes. Ramos went on to state that he introduced himself to the child by telling him he was a "friend" of the former employee, then took the boy back to his apartment and sexually assaulted him. Then, he told police, he put the boy on a subway bound for Washington Heights so the child could visit his aunt there. Patz has no relatives living in Washington Heights.

In 1983, Ramos moved to Watersmeet, Michigan with an unidentified light-haired boy, aged about thirteen or fourteen. Patz would have been about that age in 1983. Ramos left the area after he came under suspicion for molesting several boys. Police photographed him and the boy while they were in Michigan. Later, when they examined the photographs, they noted the boy's resemblance to an age-progression of Patz and decided to track the boy down. Ramos had told people in Watersmeet that the boy's parents ran an orphanage in Columbus, Ohio. The boy had been arrested there so his fingerprints were on file. Police compared the prints with Patz's. They didn't match. To make sure, authorities approached the teenager and obtained a DNA sample, which conclusively ruled out the possibility that Patz and the boy were the same person.

In 1985 the focus of the investigation briefly shifted to Israel, where a magazine there ran a photograph of Patz that had been taken by his father. The photo was not among those that had been handed out to the press, so police were suspicious as to its origin. However, attempts to locate the source of the photograph were in vain and the investigation centered back on Ramos.

Ramos's former cellmate told authorities that Ramos confessed to murdering Patz and claimed that the boy's body would never be located. Ramos is currently serving a ten to twenty year sentence in Pennsylvania for molesting boys, who, like Patz, were blond. New York investigators elected not to file charges against Ramos in Patz's case in February 2002, citing a lack of evidence.

Patz was declared legally dead by a New York judge in 2001. The action allowed Patz's family to file a civil wrongful death lawsuit against Ramos, although he has never been charged in connection Patz's case. They did file suit, and Ramos initially refused to give a deposition on the matter. In March 2003, a Manhattan Supreme Court judge ordered Ramos to answer questions under oath about what happened to Patz. Ramos gave a statement in October 2003, claiming he was in a park with a ten-year-old boy named Jimmy whom he'd met that morning in Washington Square Park, when two police officers approached him with a picture of Patz around 11:15 to 11:30 a.m. on the day of the Patz's disappearance, and asked if he had seen the child. Ramos claimed that after the police left him, he took Jimmy to an apartment. He invoked his Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination when asked whether he sexually assaulted the child.

Authorities give little credence to Ramos's story. Patz was not reported missing until 2:00 p.m. that day, and investigators would not have circulated his picture for some hours afterward. Ramos's story about his whereabouts at the time Patz vanished has changed several times.

Ramos refused to answer many of the questions in the deposition, so the judge presiding over the lawsuit found him liable for the child's wrongful death in May 2004. The judge ordered Ramos to pay $2,000,000 to Patz's parents, but as Ramos is destitute it is unlikely that any money will be collected. He is scheduled to be released from prison in 2014.


Patz's whereabouts remain unknown and his case is still open. Foul play is suspected in his case due to the circumstances involved.




Investigating Agency
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
New York City Police Department
646-610-6914


Charley Project (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/patz_etan.html)
NCMEC (http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=603392&orgPrefix=NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US)

Kat
05-03-2009, 09:24 PM
http://nymag.com/news/features/56441/

Published May 3, 2009


Thirty years ago, the 6-year-old boy disappeared from a Soho street. His father is now convinced he knows who killed Etan. But will the Patzes ever get a chance to learn the whole truth?

Five page article about Etan at link. I always hoped that Etan would be found.

Mr. E
05-04-2009, 12:42 PM
kat, that was an excellent article about Etan Patz. Etan's was one of the first cases I ever read about, and to this day it breaks my heart. I cried reading the article. I can't even imagine what Julie and Stan go through on a daily basis.

I think Ramos killed Etan. It's doubly monstrous that he won't admit to it. What does he have to lose? He's already in prison.

:+:MrTT:+:
05-04-2009, 02:50 PM
http://nymag.com/news/features/56441/

Published May 3, 2009



Five page article about Etan at link. I always hoped that Etan would be found.


Heres another update, written on the same day, but another writer.





http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/05/03/2009-05-03_etan_patzs_dad_wants_to_keep_perv_he_says_kille d_soho_6yrold_in_jail_new_hope_30.html

:+:MrTT:+:
05-04-2009, 03:07 PM
A friday.........May 25th 1979
Since hes going to be released in 2012......I don't expect hes going to confess to the murder and the whereabouts..........I hope they do take it to the GJ.....with his past, they may get an conviction, if the GJ indicts.............but between now, and then........finding the remains would be wonderful, to say the least..........the parents seem certain, the child has passed...........and a Friday morning, back then.......this guy, I would love to see the original LE report, when this person became the prime subject........to see if he drove a vehicle/had access to one that day/where he worked, if he did, , if he lived somewhere else.......and the babysitter.......would like to know, what she told about this case when interview, after her boyfriend became a prime suspect in the case?...........on that morning, he took him someone, had to have a vehicle that day, im sure he planned it........

ALL JUST MOO, OTHER THEN THE KNOWN FACTS, NOTHING CERTAIN, SPECULATION ON MY PART.

pittsburghgirl
05-04-2009, 04:27 PM
The article by Lori Simon is an excerpt from a book to come out this year, if it hasn't already come out, according to a blurb at the end of the article.

:+:MrTT:+:
05-04-2009, 08:41 PM
The person of interest, is not due out until 2012...........if the DA takes what they have before then, to a GJ.....the GJ would vote indict and charge him with what evidence they do have.......a jury would convict this person, and he would be sentence to life without parole, without seeing one day of freedom in 2012.....then perhaps over time, when the reporters are gone, and time goes by, he may tell once and for all, what really happened on that day.........but until then, i dont sense hes going to say anything about htis case, hes looking at 2012, and freedom!............with or without the remains.......he would be found guilty, the remains, would just be an exclamation point on the case for the DA........but it would bring closure to this chapter for the family, to have some phyiscal closure, by having the boy buried.....the book, would never be finished.

Tonia
05-28-2009, 11:45 AM
This missing child still holds us ‘Captive’

Before Megan’s Law, Amber Alerts and milk carton portraits, there was Etan Patz.

Thirty years ago this week, the 6-year-old New Yorker walked to the school bus stop for the first time all by himself.

He never came home.

Three decades later, Patz is still the poster child for missing children. Because of his case, laws have changed, there’s a national database for missing and exploited children and the reins to childhood, once slack and carefree, are forever tightened.

Ramos, the prime suspect in the case, and the boyfriend of Etan’s babysitter, is serving time in a Pennsylvania prison on unrelated child molestation charges.

Though Ramos was never convicted of the boy’s murder, the Patzes filed a wrongful death suit against him. He was found liable in 2004. Ramos is scheduled to be released 16 months early - in 2012.

Still, Stan Patz, who lives in Brooklyn with Julie, now a teacher, mails to Ramos their son’s missing-child poster on Etan’s birthday and the day he disappeared. There is a simple question on the back:

“What did you do to my little boy?”

http://www.bostonherald.com/entertainment/books/view/2009_05_28_This_missing_child_still_holds_us_%E2%8 0%98Captive_/srvc=home&position=also

Kat
05-30-2009, 02:38 PM
Oh Etan, you're story made me realize that the world is not a safe place for little ones.

I wish that Etan's parents could have him back for their peace of mind.

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed
05-30-2009, 04:20 PM
Did anyone else watch 20/20 last night with Etan's case?


Etan Patz Case Still Captivates 30 Years Later

On May 25, 1979, a little boy left for school and never came home. Thirty years and countless investigations later, his family is hopeful the time has finally come to prosecute the man they believe is responsible.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=7698696&page=1

AmandaBrown23
05-30-2009, 09:57 PM
I wish this family could know what happened. I dont believe this dirt bag let him go like he said.

HesterMofet
05-31-2009, 02:45 PM
I wish this family could know what happened. I dont believe this dirt bag let him go like he said.

I don't, either. I am sorry to say this, but I think the most likely thing to have happened is that he raped and killed Etan and then threw him in the garbage. I believe the garbage from NYC was taken out to sea. The perp knows the body will never be found.

I so feel for Etan's parents, they deserve to know the truth.

defender123
05-31-2009, 03:11 PM
I don't, either. I am sorry to say this, but I think the most likely thing to have happened is that he raped and killed Etan and then threw him in the garbage. I believe the garbage from NYC was taken out to sea. The perp knows the body will never be found.

I so feel for Etan's parents, they deserve to know the truth.

Just watched the special and a cellie said more than likely he put him in a furnace in the apt. building that the perp lived in. Sorry to write that.

HesterMofet
06-07-2009, 11:37 AM
Just watched the special and a cellie said more than likely he put him in a furnace in the apt. building that the perp lived in. Sorry to write that.



Yeah, I made my comment before I watched the show. How sad. Yes, he is probably long gone, but if the perp would just come out and tell the truth at least the Patzes would know for sure.

dearmont
07-15-2009, 07:35 PM
I just finished Lisa's new book on Etan - recommend anyone interested in this case to get a copy. I have my doubts that Ramos killed Etan.

pittsburghgirl
08-04-2009, 10:53 AM
It would be a very big coincidence if Ramos wasn't the killer:
1) Ramos is a sex offender against children with a provable record of interest in boys that age.
2) He was "dating" the woman hired to walk Etan and the neighbor kids home during a 6-week bus strike.
3) Etan disappeared during a two-block walk to the school bus stop--on the first day he was allowed to walk to the bus by himself.

Lisa R. Cohen
08-06-2009, 08:24 AM
Hello,

I'm the author of the recently released "AFTER ETAN: The Missing Child Case That Held America Captive" (Grand Central, May 2009). This is the first book ever in thirty years on the case. I'm a former "60 Minutes" producer - I did all the longform television coverage on the Patz case, including the only interview ever with Jose Ramos, the man found responsible for Etan's death.

To finally tell this story, I had complete access and authorization from the very private Patz family, the investigators, and almost everyone else who covered the case. I can finally tell about how the Patz family endured a parent's worst nightmare, then the crazies and the psychics and the hate mail (!); the prosecutor who escaped near death and pursued his suspect out of jurisdiction to finally lock him away…for a DIFFERENT child molestation; the undercover operation behind prison walls where the serial pedophile finally spilled his guts - twists and turns that took the whole thirty years to unravel. It's one of the greatest detective thriller's I've ever heard, and it's all true. AND it's still going on.

As Ernie Allen, the head of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told me, it’s also an important story, about the birth of a movement. PLUS a mobilized public opinion could keep the bad guy behind bars – after more than two decades in prison, he's getting out in three years. As the book explains, he's never been criminally charged for this, even though a civil judge found him responsible for Etan's death. That could change this fallo with a new New York DA, and one of the candidates, a tough woman named Leslie Crocker Snyder, wants to take the case on.

This book lays out the evidence, and the case, for the first time. Read the book and you can make up your mind for yourself, but it will answer so many questions I see on this forum and that people have been asking me throughout the 20 years I've covered this case.

see http://afteretan.com for more info or go to http://tinyurl.com/dzvslc to buy the book on Amazon.

Thanks for your attention to this important case,

Lisa R. Cohen

Lisa R. Cohen
08-06-2009, 08:26 AM
I just finished Lisa's new book on Etan - recommend anyone interested in this case to get a copy. I have my doubts that Ramos killed Etan.

I'm curious as to what your doubts are.

Thanks,

Lisa R. Cohen

Lisa R. Cohen
08-06-2009, 08:30 AM
Hello,

I'm the author of the recently released "AFTER ETAN: The Missing Child Case That Held America Captive" (Grand Central, May 2009). This is the first book ever in thirty years on the case. I'm a former "60 Minutes" producer - I did all the longform television coverage on the Patz case, including the only interview ever with Jose Ramos, the man found responsible for Etan's death. I also adapted the book for the New York Magazine article that is cited on this thread.

To finally tell this story, I had complete access and authorization from the very private Patz family, the investigators, and almost everyone else who covered the case. I can finally tell about how the Patz family endured a parent's worst nightmare, then the crazies and the psychics and the hate mail (!); the prosecutor who escaped near death and pursued his suspect out of jurisdiction to finally lock him away…for a DIFFERENT child molestation; the undercover operation behind prison walls where the serial pedophile finally spilled his guts - twists and turns that took the whole thirty years to unravel. It's one of the greatest detective thriller's I've ever heard, and it's all true. AND it's still going on.

As Ernie Allen, the head of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told me, it’s also an important story, about the birth of a movement. PLUS a mobilized public opinion could keep the bad guy behind bars – after more than two decades in prison, he's getting out in three years. As the book explains, he's never been criminally charged for this, even though a civil judge found him responsible for Etan's death. That could change this fall with a new New York DA, and one of the candidates, a tough woman named Leslie Crocker Snyder, wants to take the case on.

This book lays out the evidence, and the case, for the first time. Read the book and you can make up your mind for yourself, but it will answer so many questions I see on this forum and that people have been asking me throughout the 20 years I've covered this case.

see http://afteretan.com for more info or go to http://tinyurl.com/dzvslc to buy the book on Amazon.

Thanks for your attention to this important case,

Lisa R. Cohen

Kat
08-06-2009, 12:50 PM
I'm going to purchase a copy myself. I'll revisit this thread once I have read it.

:+:MrTT:+:
08-06-2009, 11:03 PM
Hello,

I'm the author of the recently released "AFTER ETAN: The Missing Child Case That Held America Captive" (Grand Central, May 2009). This is the first book ever in thirty years on the case. I'm a former "60 Minutes" producer - I did all the longform television coverage on the Patz case, including the only interview ever with Jose Ramos, the man found responsible for Etan's death. I also adapted the book for the New York Magazine article that is cited on this thread.

To finally tell this story, I had complete access and authorization from the very private Patz family, the investigators, and almost everyone else who covered the case. I can finally tell about how the Patz family endured a parent's worst nightmare, then the crazies and the psychics and the hate mail (!); the prosecutor who escaped near death and pursued his suspect out of jurisdiction to finally lock him away…for a DIFFERENT child molestation; the undercover operation behind prison walls where the serial pedophile finally spilled his guts - twists and turns that took the whole thirty years to unravel. It's one of the greatest detective thriller's I've ever heard, and it's all true. AND it's still going on.

As Ernie Allen, the head of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told me, it’s also an important story, about the birth of a movement. PLUS a mobilized public opinion could keep the bad guy behind bars – after more than two decades in prison, he's getting out in three years. As the book explains, he's never been criminally charged for this, even though a civil judge found him responsible for Etan's death. That could change this fall with a new New York DA, and one of the candidates, a tough woman named Leslie Crocker Snyder, wants to take the case on.

This book lays out the evidence, and the case, for the first time. Read the book and you can make up your mind for yourself, but it will answer so many questions I see on this forum and that people have been asking me throughout the 20 years I've covered this case.

see http://afteretan.com for more info or go to http://tinyurl.com/dzvslc to buy the book on Amazon.

Thanks for your attention to this important case,

Lisa R. Cohen




i do hope you come back from time to time........to see if anyone has asked any questions not covered in the book?
I will wait to ask, until after i read it myself.........but i must admit, it is tempting to ask now, before reading.......but i will wait........
and welcome again.

:+:MrTT:+:
08-07-2009, 05:32 PM
ITS going to be about a week, before i can purchase your book....
so in case you come back before then, i want to ask a question now...
If it is in the book just say so, and ill wait until i get it to read about it...

on the day, he became missing, that morning, when he turned the corner, a right hand turn i believe, to get to the bus stop.........those buildings, on his right between the corner and the bus stop, were any of those buildings vacant at the time.........i have not seen a photo, around the corner that shows if any buildings were there, but if they were, was any of them vacant...........i am wondering if perhaps after he turned the corner and approached the bus stop, that perhaps someone standing just inside or outside one of these vacant buildings at the time, called out to him, and having known this person from somewhere, perhaps he went to the voice that called out to him, and he was taken back inside one of this vacant buildings, if there was one there at the time in 79?

pittsburghgirl
08-07-2009, 07:00 PM
As Ernie Allen, the head of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told me, [After Etan is] also an important story, about the birth of a movement. PLUS a mobilized public opinion could keep the bad guy behind bars – after more than two decades in prison, he's getting out in three years. As the book explains, he's never been criminally charged for this, even though a civil judge found him responsible for Etan's death. That could change this fallo with a new New York DA, and one of the candidates, a tough woman named Leslie Crocker Snyder, wants to take the case on.

This book lays out the evidence, and the case, for the first time. Read the book and you can make up your mind for yourself, but it will answer so many questions I see on this forum and that people have been asking me throughout the 20 years I've covered this case.


Lisa,

Thanks so much for posting on WS regarding both Etan's murder and your book. I read the book as soon as it came out and finished convinced that Ramos is Etan's killer. Stuart GraBois is a most impressive man, and although prosecutors can become fixated on the wrong suspect, the story as you present it makes a powerful argument, and one that should be heard by a jury. As you say, the book also serves to lay out the circumstances that led to the whole movement to expedite searches for missing children, use national resources in those searches, and keep even long-missing children in the public eye. In that sense, WS itself is a response to what happened to Etan and the tenacity of the people who have searched for him and his abductor.

It's a wonderful book.

dearmont
08-13-2009, 05:29 AM
I have just finished reading "AFTER ETAN" and it is THE definitive work on this tragic case. I recommend it to anyone interested in learning about Etan, his disappearance, and how it often takes just a few dedicated individuals to breath new life into a stalled investigation. Brava Lisa!



Hello,

I'm the author of the recently released "AFTER ETAN: The Missing Child Case That Held America Captive" (Grand Central, May 2009). This is the first book ever in thirty years on the case. I'm a former "60 Minutes" producer - I did all the longform television coverage on the Patz case, including the only interview ever with Jose Ramos, the man found responsible for Etan's death. I also adapted the book for the New York Magazine article that is cited on this thread.

To finally tell this story, I had complete access and authorization from the very private Patz family, the investigators, and almost everyone else who covered the case. I can finally tell about how the Patz family endured a parent's worst nightmare, then the crazies and the psychics and the hate mail (!); the prosecutor who escaped near death and pursued his suspect out of jurisdiction to finally lock him away…for a DIFFERENT child molestation; the undercover operation behind prison walls where the serial pedophile finally spilled his guts - twists and turns that took the whole thirty years to unravel. It's one of the greatest detective thriller's I've ever heard, and it's all true. AND it's still going on.

As Ernie Allen, the head of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told me, it’s also an important story, about the birth of a movement. PLUS a mobilized public opinion could keep the bad guy behind bars – after more than two decades in prison, he's getting out in three years. As the book explains, he's never been criminally charged for this, even though a civil judge found him responsible for Etan's death. That could change this fall with a new New York DA, and one of the candidates, a tough woman named Leslie Crocker Snyder, wants to take the case on.

This book lays out the evidence, and the case, for the first time. Read the book and you can make up your mind for yourself, but it will answer so many questions I see on this forum and that people have been asking me throughout the 20 years I've covered this case.

see http://afteretan.com for more info or go to http://tinyurl.com/dzvslc to buy the book on Amazon.

Thanks for your attention to this important case,

Lisa R. Cohen

:+:MrTT:+:
08-15-2009, 01:15 PM
I have just finished reading "AFTER ETAN" and it is THE definitive work on this tragic case. I recommend it to anyone interested in learning about Etan, his disappearance, and how it often takes just a few dedicated individuals to breath new life into a stalled investigation. Brava Lisa!

Hello...

I cant afford the book right now.
would you be so kind as to read post number 10 when you have a chance, and check the book to see if it answered my question above..
i really appreciate it if you can sometime, and i thank you in advance for your answer.

Leprikawn
09-10-2009, 09:52 AM
Too bad we cant waterboard this guy..........we might be able to get this case solved! It wouldnt kill him and it might just make him talk.

Lisa R. Cohen
09-10-2009, 12:10 PM
Find it here:

http://afteretan.com/From_the_Patz_family.pdf


OR read it here:


On May 25, 1979 my 6 year-old cousin, Etan Patz, disappeared from the streets of New York. Even after thirty years, people remember this case quite well. Etan was walking two short blocks to his school bus stop for the first time and he was never seen again. Jose Antonio Ramos, a sexual predator, is believed to be responsible for molesting, killing and disposing of Etan’s body.

Here’s the scariest part - If nothing is done and my cousin’s case does not make it to a Grand Jury, Ramos will be released from prison in 2012.

In 2004 a civil judge found Ramos responsible for Etan’s death yet the current Manhattan DA refuses to bring the case to trial. Jose Ramos, a serial pedophile, is currently incarcerated in a Pennsylvania prison for sexually molesting another young boy. But, he will have served out his sentence in three short years and he will be back on the streets to harm countless other children. The thought of this monster getting out of prison should frighten everyone but if you live in Manhattan you can help stop Ramos – for good.

The current 90 year old Manhattan DA, Robert Morgenthau, has been in office for 35 years and to this day refuses to bring this case to trial despite substantial evidence and a civil trial showing Ramos responsible for Etan’s death. Morgenthau has decided not to seek re-election this year and retire.

There are three candidates hoping to succeed him. Judge Leslie Crocker Snyder, Cyrus Vance Jr. and Richard Aborn.

My family is trying to reach out to those of you in Manhattan to please consider voting for Judge Leslie Crocker Snyder for Manhattan DA. Leslie Crocker Snyder is the only candidate for DA who has pledged to put the Patz case before a Grand Jury, the first necessary step needed to obtain an indictment against Jose Ramos which could lead to a trial and conviction.

Our only objective is to save another family from enduring the pain and anguish our family has lived with for over 30 years. If you live in Manhattan are of legal age to vote, and a registered Democrat, please vote for Judge Leslie Crocker Snyder. If you are outside of New York, please reach out to others, to get the word out.

If you are unfamiliar with this case, please see http://afteretan.com or read the book “AFTER ETAN: The Missing Child Case That Held America Captive,” by former “60 Minutes" producer, Lisa R. Cohen. It’s the first book ever written about the case in thirty years. It finally lays out a full picture of the compelling evidence against Jose Ramos, evidence never before heard in public.

If you have any doubts about his guilt, read this book and you will see that when you put all the pieces together, he is irrefutably the villain who kidnapped and killed my cousin Etan. There were also interviews done on "20/20" and "60 Minutes" that will help you understand how important it is to keep this predator off our streets.

Thank you for your time.

The Family of Etan Patz

evaporatedone
09-10-2009, 03:22 PM
Lisa, your book was truly an eye-opener...I had never realised Ramos was suspected of as many abuses as your book detailed. He should NEVER be released. I plan on writing the DA's office, and informing my friends about Judge Snyder...this case cannot be forgotten and Morgenthau's treatment of it has been shameful and disrespectful for years.

Thank you for posting this and for writing "After Etan"

Lisa R. Cohen
09-10-2009, 05:52 PM
...and thank you for your vigilance as well. Spread the word.

Jose Ramos has a long history and I've met some of his past victims and/or their families. The damage he has done is immeasurable, and as far as I can tell from my conversations with him and with those who've spent time with him, he has no sense that he did anything wrong. He has always seen himself as the real victim.

Lisa

BeanE
05-26-2010, 10:30 AM
DA Reopens Infamous Abduction Case
Vance Takes New Look at 1979 Disappearance of 6-Year-Old SoHo Boy Etan Patz; Case Gained International Attention
MAY 26, 2010

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NY-AG004_PATS3_DV_20100525172455.jpg

Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance has officially reopened the investigation into the disappearance of 6-year-old Etan Patz, the blond-haired, blue-eyed boy who left his SoHo loft 31 years ago Tuesday and never returned.

"I said I would look into it, and I am looking into it," Mr. Vance said of a case that made headlines around the world and spurred the creation of National Missing Children's Day on May 25 each year.

Mr. Vance, who took office on New Year's Day after Robert Morgenthau retired after 35 years, has directed his prosecutors to take a fresh look at a case that has haunted New York for decades. Mr. Morgenthau long argued there was insufficient evidence to proceed in the case. Aides to Mr. Vance said a decision has yet to be made on whether to empanel a grand jury.

snip

"I'm very pleased to hear that he's publicly stating that he's willing to reopen the case and do some investigation—this is a big change from the previous administration under Mr. Morgenthau," Mr. Patz said. "To them it was closed. It was done and over with. Here, the new district attorney is willing to start fresh and look over the evidence."

snip

"We lost a nice little boy, probably somebody with a great future," Mr. Patz, 68 years old, said. "I'll tell you this—what made him so nice is probably what got him killed. Outgoing. Friendly. Trusting."

"He was a nice kid," he said, "and that's what worked against him."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703341904575267070222203334.html?m od=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_5

Kat
05-28-2010, 12:40 PM
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/815630--prosecutor-to-reopen-case-of-milk-carton-boy-etan-patz

Published On Fri May 28 2010

snipped:


...GraBois didn’t have the jurisdictional authority to charge Ramos. And for years, he couldn’t convince former District Attorney Robert Morgenthau to do so.

Reopening the case became a key issue during the campaign to replace Morgenthau. Vance, who won the job in January, was one of the candidates who promised to do so.
...

Kat
05-28-2010, 12:42 PM
ABC article with video.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/etan-patz-missing-boy-case-reopened-31-years/story?id=10749565

The case HAS been reopened.

Prayers for Etan's parents.

Ms Suzanne
06-10-2010, 07:36 AM
I don't, either. I am sorry to say this, but I think the most likely thing to have happened is that he raped and killed Etan and then threw him in the garbage. I believe the garbage from NYC was taken out to sea. The perp knows the body will never be found.

I so feel for Etan's parents, they deserve to know the truth.
Yes,They deseve to know the truth.It's sad.

LillyRush
06-10-2010, 07:48 AM
see http://afteretan.com for more info or go to http://tinyurl.com/dzvslc to buy the book on Amazon.

Thanks for your attention to this important case,

Lisa R. Cohen


I had no idea there was a book written about this case. So glad I checked back on this thread to read the latest news! I will definitely pick up your book this summer!

rpipergirl
06-14-2010, 02:45 PM
I have just blogged on this. I am so excited. I hope they get the evidence they need to keep that monster from getting out in 2012. http://genkidjericho.blogspot.com/2010/06/etan-patz-case-update.html

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed
02-16-2011, 01:07 PM
Looks like Etan will be on Nancy Grace America's Missing tonight.


Etan Patz: Nancy Grace America's Missing

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/02/15/etan-blog-post.jpg

It is quite possibly one of the most famous missing child cases in America. After weeks of negotiating, Etan Patz was finally given permission to walk to the bus stop alone. The stop was just two blocks away from his parent’s apartment in the SOHO neighborhood of New York.

By the end of the school day Etan had not made it home. His mother began to worry and it was not long before she discovered her son never made it to school. Police immediately began to search for the 6 year old from rooftops to basements, but nothing was found until 1982. A suspect is discovered after trying to lure young boys into his makeshift home in a drainage canal. Within the confines of the canal police find photos of young blonde boys resembling Etan Patz. After 31 years an arrest has never been made, but Jose Antonio Ramos remains the sole suspect in the disappearance of the young boy whose disappearance sparked the missing children’s movement.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/

Nocgirl
02-17-2011, 03:13 PM
I watched this last night. Sadly interesting. Scary that the only suspect jose Ramos is going to be released from prision next year. NG show said he is not being paroled, his sentence is up. However a NYT article from 2009 says he is up for parole 11/2012. I cannot imagine any parole board granting release to this sick pervert/likely child killer. Is his sentence up or is he up for parole?

imamaze
02-17-2011, 05:41 PM
As difficult as I know it is, we do not call suspects names or talk about what we wish or want to happen to them. Please refrain from doing this. Thank you.

Ima

deelytful1
10-14-2011, 07:10 AM
I was reading through the missing forum and my mind jumped to Etan. I was living in NYC at the time and was in my teens. He is the first "missing case" I can remember and it scared the bejesus out of me realizing that these things can happen. The beginnings of my innocence in this world being jaded...
Thinking of you and your family today Etan.
:rose:

Nocgirl
11-08-2011, 01:50 AM
There was a good show on cable last night about this case. I cannot remember which cable show it was. Jorge Ramos is going to be released 11/2012. Very scary. After the interviews I saw last night with Jose Ramos's former cell mate (the snitch) and prosecutors, there is no question this man is responsible for Etan's death. Stan Patz still sends Jorge 2 letters a year..one on the anniversary of his disappearance and one on Etan's birthday. Jorge Ramos himself even called himself a "sort of a pedophile".

Leprikawn
11-08-2011, 10:18 PM
Such a sad case! Here the world knows this guy is guilty and yet he wont even tell where the poor childs body is. Cant even give the father some peace.

And he will be back in jail again....why he is being let out is a travesty.....I sure hope that he doesnt kill another kid before it happens.

DLT88
11-29-2011, 07:51 PM
I shall never forget when little Etan Patz disappeared. It was so very heartbreaking. I've wondered so much about him over the years from time to time and now I read about this Ramos guy and what probably/most likely happened to Etan. I hope he did not suffer long and was released into the beautiful heavens quickly where he happily will greet his parents one day when it is their turn to join him.

cartercar
04-19-2012, 10:31 AM
This seems important enough to warrant a new thread, but if I'm doing it wrong, Mods, please fix.

There is a live newsflash on WPIX at this moment, reporting that FBI and NYPD swarmed over a Soho street in a renewed search for Etan Patz, missing since 1979. Etan was the first child with his picture on a milk carton. He was declared legally dead c. 2000.

Forty FBI agents + NYPD + others (FORTY FBI agents!) are searching underneath a building on Prince Street in Soho, very near where the Patzs lived at the time he disappeared.

All prayers and hopes that his parents and brother will finally be able to lay him to his eternal rest.

Donjeta
04-19-2012, 10:43 AM
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Etan-Patz-Case-SoHo-Search-FBI-NYPD-148088675.html

The FBI and NYPD are searching the basement of a building in SoHo for the remains of 6-year-old Etan Patz, who went missing 33 years ago, NBC New York has learned.

summer_breeze
04-19-2012, 11:00 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/fbi-agents-search-manhattan-apartment-remains-etan-patz-article-1.1064138?localLinksEnabled=false

BY GREG B. SMITH AND LARRY MCSHANE / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Thursday, April 19, 2012, 10:44 AM


Tip led authorities to basement of Prince St. building in missing boy case

amandab
04-19-2012, 11:03 AM
"Officials are searching the basement of a building on Prince Street, based off a tip, two law enforcement officials tell NBC New York. They plan to dig up the basement, those officials said.

The basement is at 127B Prince Street, about 200 feet from the building where Patz lived."

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Etan-Patz-Case-SoHo-Search-FBI-NYPD-148088675.html

Elphaba
04-19-2012, 11:07 AM
Please let this bring him home to his family.

amandab
04-19-2012, 11:39 AM
"The city medical examiner was also on scene to help determine whether any findings are human remains."

Wow - this must be a pretty credible tip they're acting on....

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Etan-Patz-Case-SoHo-Search-FBI-NYPD-148088675.html

amandab
04-19-2012, 11:48 AM
Where did Jose Ramos, the original suspect, live when Etan disappeared?

nursebeeme
04-19-2012, 12:13 PM
Oh! I sincerely hope they find him.... I have always thought it was that creepy guy.... (didn't he also used to hang around the tunnels, etc, iirc?)

Elphaba
04-19-2012, 01:26 PM
*snip*

Some sources told ABC News that prosecutors are now skeptical whether convicted child sex abuser Jose Antonio Ramos -- long considered Patz abductor and killer -- did in fact commit the crime.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/19/fbi-da-searching-manhattan-building-in-boy-17-disappearance/?test=latestnews#ixzz1sVZd86Pxhttp://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/19/fbi-da-searching-manhattan-building-in-boy-17-disappearance/?test=latestnews

KaylynnCouture
04-19-2012, 01:39 PM
I watched something on 20/20 a few nights ago about Etan's story. I hope and pray that his family receives some closure from the tip LE is acting on and that justice is served.

citylady
04-19-2012, 02:30 PM
This has always been a haunting and never-forgotten case here in downtown NYC (I am just ten blocks away) and there is tremendous hope for the family, finally. The street is blocked off and will be for 2-3 days, we just heard - which could mean that some sort of human remains or traces may already have been discovered there. May the Patz family finally have some measure of peace.

:+:MrTT:+:
04-19-2012, 02:30 PM
Where are the other threads?
I commented on this case perhaps two years ago. But now there not here.
Where are those other threads with comments please.

I want to see if that is the building the man was standing in that morning.

I am sorry, I am not being rude. I am just absolutely frustrated at this moment.

Kat
04-19-2012, 02:49 PM
I hope that Etan comes home soon. (I didn't find another thread either in tag search)

Kat
04-19-2012, 02:59 PM
:+:MrTT:+: I found this:

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/p/etan_patz/index.html

Updated: April 19, 2012


Mr. Ramos had been an acquaintance of a woman who worked for the Patzes as a baby sitter and in May 1979, he lived in a tenement on the Lower East Side, about a mile from the family


In April 2012, investigators from the F.B.I. began digging in the basement of a building in Soho in a renewed search for evidence. The building, at 127 Prince Street near Wooster Street, is half a block from where Etan lived and along the route he was to have traveled when he disappeared.

Wanting2Help
04-19-2012, 03:05 PM
"The city medical examiner was also on scene to help determine whether any findings are human remains."

Wow - this must be a pretty credible tip they're acting on....

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Etan-Patz-Case-SoHo-Search-FBI-NYPD-148088675.html

From link above... also map at link...


Authorities recently got an alert from a cadaver dog they brought into the 13-by-62 basement at 127B Prince Street, about 200 feet from the building where Patz lived.


Law enforcement sources say they have evidence to suggest Patz had been in the basement before.

:+:MrTT:+:
04-19-2012, 03:07 PM
:+:MrTT:+: I found this:

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/p/etan_patz/index.html

Updated: April 19, 2012

auote...
In April 2012, investigators from the F.B.I. began digging in the basement of a building in Soho in a renewed search for evidence. The building, at 127 Prince Street near Wooster Street, is half a block from where Etan lived and along the route he was to have traveled when he disappeared...end of quote.

I believe without looking, that is the one where the man was that day that called to him, if i remember correctly. It was right by the bus stop that morning, as he turned the corner.

Thank-you for posting those links..

127 Prince Street near Wooster Street,........Yes, I believe that is the building.

Officials are searching the basement of a building on Prince Street that is connected to a handyman who had contact with Patz just before he disappeared, according to a law enforcement official...........Thats the man!

Kat
04-19-2012, 03:22 PM
"The city medical examiner was also on scene to help determine whether any findings are human remains."

Wow - this must be a pretty credible tip they're acting on....

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Etan-Patz-Case-SoHo-Search-FBI-NYPD-148088675.html

Picture from link above:

epiphany
04-19-2012, 03:25 PM
I've read they got a cadaver dog hit in this basement a couple of weeks ago. I think they'll get something---finally!

epiphany
04-19-2012, 03:26 PM
Authorities recently got an alert from a cadaver dog they brought into the 13-by-62 basement at 127B Prince Street, about 200 feet from the building where Patz lived. (See map below)

Law enforcement sources say they have evidence to suggest Patz had been in the basement before.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Etan-Patz-Case-SoHo-Search-FBI-NYPD-148088675.html

Mom who cares
04-19-2012, 03:31 PM
200 Feet! That's so close to his home. I really hope they find his remains. Prayers for his family at this time.

epiphany
04-19-2012, 03:32 PM
Slideshow photos here of what's going on in Soho today:

http://www.dnainfo.com/20120419/greenwich-village-soho/fbi-searches-soho-basement-for-remains-of-boy-missing-since-1979/slideshow/popup/175465

Kat
04-19-2012, 03:36 PM
If this is already posted on thread please forgive, lot's of articles popping up now and very quickly on google news.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57416500-504083/etan-patz-search-fbi-nypd-seek-new-clues-in-1979-missing-child-case/

snipped:


Investigators will also be taking down dry wall, possibly a brick wall, excavating the concrete floor and sifting through it


Reports say handyman, who worked in the building where police are searching, knew Patz and occasionally gave him $1 to help him do some work. Around the time of Patz's disappearance, that handyman put down a new concrete floor in the basement of the building. That floor has allegedly never been broken up until now.

I can hear news coverage on TV in livingroom covering Etan but I am not sure what channel it is on the TV.

epiphany
04-19-2012, 03:41 PM
NYC 24 hour news-

NY1 Twitter to track:

https://twitter.com/#!/ny1headlines

NY1 Website for video and reports as come in:

http://manhattan.ny1.com/content/top_stories/

:+:MrTT:+:
04-19-2012, 03:45 PM
Slideshow photos here of what's going on in Soho today:

http://www.dnainfo.com/20120419/greenwich-village-soho/fbi-searches-soho-basement-for-remains-of-boy-missing-since-1979/slideshow/popup/175465


That is the building i believe. he turned the corner if i remember correctly. And the guy was there in the door way, and entice him to come closer with candy or toys something, but i think it was candy. when he got close enough he grab his arm and took him inside and no one noticed. NOT the suspect all these years, but another guy, if that is whom they are referring to as the handyman.......TEAR IT APART...I think he is in there.http://assets.dnainfo.com/generated/photo/2012/04/1334858444.jpg/image640x480.jpg

Kat
04-19-2012, 03:46 PM
Excerpt from book about Etan. I think this *might* be the handyman they are talking about:
After Etan: The Missing Child Case That Held America Captive
By Lisa R. Cohen

http://books.google.com/books?id=pz7ov90EpEoC&pg=PT31&lpg=PT31&dq=etan+patz+jamaican+handyman&source=bl&ots=NhiqcHxPDT&sig=OiVm-l5hQ4IhFGcPSIbbtjj2_A4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bGqQT-nqF8XhiAKx7b2GAw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=etan%20patz%20jamaican%20handyman&f=false

You might have to toggle back a page to see his name. ETA: Can I post his name on thread?

Kimster
04-19-2012, 03:49 PM
Excerpt from book about Etan. I think this *might* be the handyman they are talking about:
After Etan: The Missing Child Case That Held America Captive
By Lisa R. Cohen

http://books.google.com/books?id=pz7ov90EpEoC&pg=PT31&lpg=PT31&dq=etan+patz+jamaican+handyman&source=bl&ots=NhiqcHxPDT&sig=OiVm-l5hQ4IhFGcPSIbbtjj2_A4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bGqQT-nqF8XhiAKx7b2GAw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=etan%20patz%20jamaican%20handyman&f=false

You might have to toggle back a page to see his name. ETA: Can I post his name on thread?

If he is named in the book as a suspect, it's okay. And especially if he has a violent criminal past.

Kat
04-19-2012, 03:49 PM
Okay nevermind he's named in MSM here I just found it:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/etan-patz-case-opened-181030534.html


a local handyman named Othniel Miller, who gave Etan $1 for helping him the night before the disappearance.

The man's name had come up in an earlier investigation, but he was a friend of the Patz family, and the NYPD did not follow the lead.

Kat
04-19-2012, 03:52 PM
I watched HLN coverage (that was the channel that was covering it earlier) and don't take this as a quote but I am pretty sure I heard that this is the same basement that had the art studio and the area where people gathered to have sex as well.

(People that have followed this case will know what I'm talking about) Just sharing what I am pretty sure I heard.

epiphany
04-19-2012, 03:54 PM
Dry wall was installed inside the 15-by-30-foot basement space in 1979, he added.

"At the time of the boy's disappearance, these would have been exposed brick walls," Browne explained of the space, which used to house a business above it, as well as apartments on the upper floors.

http://www.dnainfo.com/20120419/greenwich-village-soho/fbi-searches-soho-basement-for-remains-of-boy-missing-since-1979/slideshow/175465

Kat
04-19-2012, 03:56 PM
Oh man, to think that there is a possibility that Etan was there the whole time :( so close to home. :sigh: Bless his Mom and Dad's hearts.

RoseTree
04-19-2012, 03:57 PM
Picture from link above:

Thank you so much for this, Kat. I can't even imagine knowing that he may have been a block away all along.

amandab
04-19-2012, 03:57 PM
What I want to know is who lived there when Etan disappeared??

:+:MrTT:+:
04-19-2012, 04:01 PM
Okay nevermind he's named in MSM here I just found it:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/etan-patz-case-opened-181030534.html

I think, but just guessing, they found another picture or pictures of the boy in the basement of that building. Or perhaps his name was scrawled upon a wall or floor in his writing but just speculation.

epiphany
04-19-2012, 04:01 PM
Unconfirmed:

http://gothamist.com/2012/04/19/spotted_fbi_on_prince_and_wooster.php

UPDATE (2 p.m.): There are currently mumblings at the scene on Prince Street that a cadaver dog was brought in. The NYPD and FBI aren't currently commenting, but according to Joey Boots, who is there, there is some activity under the evidence tents. He also says, "legit scoop from a very reliable source... cadaver dog signaled a hit in basement and now they are digging."

Kat
04-19-2012, 04:03 PM
Thank you so much for this, Kat. I can't even imagine knowing that he may have been a block away all along.

The reporter on HLN said they still live in the neighborhood. My heart sure is with them and their other children right now! So sad.

amandab
04-19-2012, 04:04 PM
Unconfirmed:

http://gothamist.com/2012/04/19/spotted_fbi_on_prince_and_wooster.php

UPDATE (2 p.m.): There are currently mumblings at the scene on Prince Street that a cadaver dog was brought in. The NYPD and FBI aren't currently commenting, but according to Joey Boots, who is there, there is some activity under the evidence tents. He also says, "legit scoop from a very reliable source... cadaver dog signaled a hit in basement and now they are digging."

ohmygod....i wonder if they've found him.......on the edge of my seat......

epiphany
04-19-2012, 04:06 PM
I watched HLN coverage (that was the channel that was covering it earlier) and don't take this as a quote but I am pretty sure I heard that this is the same basement that had the art studio and the area where people gathered to have sex as well.

(People that have followed this case will know what I'm talking about) Just sharing what I am pretty sure I heard.

Investigators believe that the basement, which housed a wood shop and art-storage space at the time of Etan’s disappearance, was also a known meeting place for sexual liaisons at the time.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/f-b-i-renews-search-for-etan-patz-in-soho-basement/

:+:MrTT:+:
04-19-2012, 04:06 PM
Okay nevermind he's named in MSM here I just found it:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/etan-patz-case-opened-181030534.html

Hes the one that enticed that boy to come closer that morning before the bus got there. It was his first morning walking alone to the bus stop and he was so excited and mom watched him until he turn the corner.........I remember now.


THE ABOVE ALL MOO AND SPECULATION ON MY PART. NOTHING POSTED AS BEING FACT UNLESS OTHERWISE KNOWN TO BE.,

Guinevere
04-19-2012, 04:17 PM
How Tragic :(

Not familiar with details of this case going to get caught up.....

STEADFAST
04-19-2012, 04:17 PM
Where are the other threads?
I commented on this case perhaps two years ago. But now there not here.
Where are those other threads with comments please.

I want to see if that is the building the man was standing in that morning.

I am sorry, I am not being rude. I am just absolutely frustrated at this moment.
Etan Patz; DA hopeful Snyder vows to press the case if elected - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

epiphany
04-19-2012, 04:18 PM
Video from 3:17 PM - Reporter in Soho:

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/04/19/info-investigators-prepare-to-search-nyc-apartment-in-etan-patzs-1979-disappearance/

epiphany
04-19-2012, 04:20 PM
From end of video:

Reporter: ...we don't know the whereabouts of the handyman; police are checking

katydid23
04-19-2012, 04:25 PM
So Mom , bless her heart, "watched him until he turned the corner, 150 feet away from the bus stop". Was that the corner where this handyman would be standing?

Kat
04-19-2012, 04:25 PM
Video from 3:17 PM - Reporter in Soho:

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/04/19/info-investigators-prepare-to-search-nyc-apartment-in-etan-patzs-1979-disappearance/

At the end of the video Shep asks where the whereabouts of the handyman is. Well----being the nosy WS I am and I'm sure other's have already looked---it looks like if he hasn't recently passed away that he's in Brooklyn. He has at least one arrest for driving without/or suspended IIRC because I saw his mugshot. lol.

Not going to put his info here. It's on the internet. Will wait until more info comes from LE. JMHO

Richard
04-19-2012, 04:30 PM
When Etan Patz mysteriously vanished at the age of 6 in 1979, he became the first missing child whose face appeared on a milk carton.

LINK:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/19/etan-patz_n_1437493.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-nb%7Cdl5%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D153364

amandab
04-19-2012, 04:30 PM
Oh Etan. I pray your long, lonely journey is nearing its end.

I grew up looking at childrens faces on milk cartons because of you. Truthfully, it's not too much of a stretch to think that I'm as interested in missing persons cases because of you.

I wonder if your case, and subsequent milk carton campaign, has spawned a generation of people dedicated to the cases and causes of the missing.

epiphany
04-19-2012, 04:31 PM
Police sources tell NY1 they are digging up the concrete basement of a building located at 127 Prince Street after pursuing a routine lead, and that there is the possibility of a new suspect in the case.

http://manhattan.ny1.com/content/top_stories/159696/police-dig-up-soho-basement-for-possible-new-clues-in-etan-patz-case

epiphany
04-19-2012, 04:34 PM
NY1 Live:

FBI spokesman: ...re-examination of evidence as well as leads; combination of [that which] made it prudent to be here

Richard
04-19-2012, 04:39 PM
Etan Kalil Patz, 6, Missing since May 25, 1979 from New York City, NY

Etan Kalil Patz
Missing since May 25, 1979 from New York City, New York
Classification: Non-Family Abduction

Vital Statistics

Date Of Birth: October 9, 1972
Age at Time of Disappearance: 6 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 3'4; 50 pounds
Distinguishing Characteristics: White male. Brown hair; blue eyes.
Clothing: Patz was wearing a black Future Flight Captain pilots cap; blue corduroy jacket;
blue pants; and blue sneakers with fluorescent stripes along the side.
He was carrying a blue bag imprinted with an elephant design.
Dentals: Not available
DNA: Available
Photos at link below

Circumstances of Disappearance

Patz was last seen walking to a bus stop in New York City, NY on Prince Street and Wooster Street at approximately 08:00.

He was en route to school; it was the first time he walked to the bus stop on his own.

Jose Ramos, a known pedophile currently serving time in a Pennsylvania prison for child abuse charges, is the prime suspect in Patz's disappearance. Ramos was a drifter and former mental patient who had a history of luring young boys while traveling across the United States in the 1970's. Ramos was in New York City at the time of Patz's disappearance and was an acquaintance of a former employee of the Patz family, a woman who escorted Etan to school during a short-lived bus-strike in 1979.

The police believe Ramos may have been stalking her, that leading him to Etan. He also claimed he was with a child fitting Patz's description the day the boy vanished. He states that he approached the boy by saying he was a friend of the woman who used to work for the Patzes.

A former cellmate of Ramos' claimed that he confessed to Patz's abduction and murder in 2000, claiming that he killed him and that authorities never will find the body. The Patz family filed a wrongful death civil suit against Ramos and in May of 2004 the judge ruled that Jose Ramos is responsible for the disappearance and presumed death of Etan Patz. The judge declared Jose R. Ramos responsible for the boy's death because he disobeyed her orders to answer deposition questions under oath for a lawyer representing Etan's parents.

Patz has never been located.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:

New York office of the FBI
212-384-1000

OR

New York City Police Department
Detective Frank Saez
1-212-694-7781

Agency Case Number: KFBC26321

NCMEC #: NCMC603392

NCIC Number: M-095614454

Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.

Source Information:
The National Center For Missing and Exploited Children
The New York Post On-Line
MSNBC On-Line
The Villager
CA DOJ
The Doe Network: Case File 123DMNY

LINK:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/123dmny.html

carole
04-19-2012, 04:47 PM
The reporter on HLN said they still live in the neighborhood. My heart sure is with them and their other children right now! So sad.

BBM

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Etan was an only child. I tried googling but couldn't find anything one way or the other.

epiphany
04-19-2012, 04:57 PM
CNN’s Susan Candiotti reported that FBI evidence recovery teams plan to use jackhammers to dig through the floor and they expect to continue the search there for five days. Candiotti told HLN’s Nancy Grace investigators believe Patz may have been killed or disposed of in that basement.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/19/new-etan-patz-search-focuses-on-basement-near-home/?hpt=ng_mid

https://twitter.com/#!/JoeyBoots/status/193078705168453634/photo/1

southern_scout
04-19-2012, 05:00 PM
My NY friend says Prince and Wooster St.'s are covered up with FBI and NYPD. I hope they do find him, if he's there, so his family can have some closure.

:+:MrTT:+:
04-19-2012, 05:01 PM
Etan Patz; DA hopeful Snyder vows to press the case if elected - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24861)


Thank you STEADFAST
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/misc/navbits_start.gif Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/index.php) > Crimes and Trials > Cold Cases http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/misc/navbits_finallink_ltr.gif Etan Patz; DA hopeful Snyder vows to press the case if elected



08-07-2009, 05:32 PM Post#10

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 08-15-2009, 01:15 PM Post#12


I posted this comment to explain why I am 80/20 percent sure this boy is in this building.
But not 100 percent. No one is 100 percent on anything.


Thank-you again STEADFAST for finding these.

dcgrumpy
04-19-2012, 05:02 PM
BBM

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Etan was an only child. I tried googling but couldn't find anything one way or the other.

IIRC he had an older sister and a younger brother

Pookie's Mom
04-19-2012, 05:06 PM
I so hope they can finally find something so that the Patz family can have some type of closure, however, media being what it is, I hope that after its all said and done they really do find something and aren't just blowing smoke and getting peoples hopes up.

Surely they have some strong indication that there is something there to find or they would have gone about it a bit quieter. You think?( I'm hoping someone agrees with me on that :) )

Kat
04-19-2012, 05:12 PM
IIRC he had an older sister and a younger brother

Yes Shari and Ari respectively.

Here is a good 20/20 for those still catching up:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=7577234&page=1

(from 2009, sibs named in here too)

southern_scout
04-19-2012, 05:15 PM
I
Surely they have some strong indication that there is something there to find or they would have gone about it a bit quieter. You think?( I'm hoping someone agrees with me on that :) )

I think you are right. If this wasn't a fairly strong suspicion, they would have kept it a little more on the low-down.

Kat
04-19-2012, 05:15 PM
ETA: Shira I transposed the vowels in her name, so sorry!

cartercar
04-19-2012, 05:24 PM
They are reporting that today's activity occurred because the investigation went off in a completely new direction, with a new suspect.

For many years, it was assumed that Ramos - the guy sitting in jail for a couple of decades on an unrelated molestation charge - was Etan's kidnapper and killer, but he has been slip-sliding around with semi-confessions, inscrutable statements and partial admissions for years, and I think everyone more or less gave up hope that he would ever give a full confession and tell the parents where their child is.

But today it seems they are setting the Ramos direction aside for now and are investigating a different person. He was described as a family friend, aged 76 (he's that age now, was much younger then, of course), lives in Brooklyn. I caught the name "Miller," didn't catch whether he was questioned back when it happened. I'm sure we will be getting more info in time.

Curiouser and curiouser. I hope they will be able to give at least some closure and resolution to this family. I remember it struck me then, and still does now, that the Patzes never moved, because the mom wanted Etan to be able to find them if he ever comes home.

Since then, I've heard similar things in other cases, but that was the first time, and my heart just broke for that poor lady.

They expect the excavation work to take a few weeks.

@Pookies Mom, you are absolutely right. It was my first thought. They went in there today as high profile as possible. The only thing missing was a marching band to announce their arrival. I think they said that even the Police Commissioner was there. They must have something very solid. Both the FBI and the NYPD would know very well how to stay hidden in plain sight, posing as maintenance or repair crews or something. The fact that a platoon of FBI officers showed up at 8:00 AM without any subterfuge means that they know there is something to find, and they will find it.

epiphany
04-19-2012, 05:34 PM
How could FBI and NYPD keep this quiet?

Location of Search:

The neighborhood has boutiques and restaurants in the northern area along Broadway and Prince and Spring Streets. The sidewalks in this area are often crowded with tourists.

A look at the neighborhood here:

http://www.nyc.com/visitor_guide/soho.75863/editorial_review.aspx

STEADFAST
04-19-2012, 05:40 PM
Othniel Miller
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/04/nyc-basement-searched-for-remains-of-boy-missing-since-1979/1#.T5CGKNXl-So

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 05:43 PM
Here's a Village Voice link that may come in handy - I doubt whether any of the info is unique to it and you've probably read it on other links above, but I haven't plowed my way through them all as yet:

Etan Patz Disappearance: Authorities Dig Up SoHo Basement, Identify "Target" Of Probe (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/04/etan_patz_disap.php)

---
Additionally, sources say the "target" of the investigation is a neighborhood handyman named Othneil Miller, 75, who would often pay Patz a few dollars to help him out around his shop.
---
After speaking with Miller, law enforcement officials took "scent pads" -- which allows investigators to "collect scent evidence from hard to access places" without destroying any other evidence, like fingerprints -- to the basement of the building at 127 Prince Street, where Miller had a workshop at the time of Patz's disappearance.

Certainly worth checking back as the Voice generally has excellent local crime story sources, and especially as SoHo is just south of Greenwich Village.

LiveLaughLuv
04-19-2012, 05:45 PM
How could FBI and NYPD keep this quiet?

Location of Search:

The neighborhood has boutiques and restaurants in the northern area along Broadway and Prince and Spring Streets. The sidewalks in this area are often crowded with tourists.

A look at the neighborhood here:

http://www.nyc.com/visitor_guide/soho.75863/editorial_review.aspx

I'm right there and I didnt' know until I saw it just now on the news..Wow after 33 years hopefully the authorities will bring Etan home.

I also just learned the handyman was interviewed at his home today. The reported he is being cooperative as he always had been. It's also been said he used to give Etan a dollar when he'd help him out...so who knows if this man knows anything...What brought LE to the area again?

epiphany
04-19-2012, 05:48 PM
From Steadfast's Link:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/04/nyc-basement-searched-for-remains-of-boy-missing-since-1979/1#.T5CHI45ivs1

The basement unit housed a carpentry business when Ethan disappeared. Sources told the Daily News the link was Othnie I. Miller, a handyman who gave Etan $1 for helping him the night before he vanished.

Miller was interviewed by police but never named as a suspect, with the NYPD opting not to dig up his basement after the Patzes said he was a family friend, one source said.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703341904575267070222203334.html?K EYWORDS=%22Etan+Patz%22

Mr. Ramos said in his Web posting that the allegation of his guilt in Etan's case "is a lie from the former US assistant attorney for the Southern District of New York City who conducted an improper interview and reported the lie to the media."

Last year, the Patz case became a lightning rod in the divisive race for district attorney. Mr. Morgenthau said it was "irresponsible" to promise to convene a grand jury in the case.

"We spent a huge amount of time on that case. If we could go to a grand jury, we would in a minute," Mr. Morgenthau said last summer. "There's no sufficient evidence, and there's absolutely no reason to open a grand jury investigation when you don't have any admissible evidence."

LiveLaughLuv
04-19-2012, 05:58 PM
BBM

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Etan was an only child. I tried googling but couldn't find anything one way or the other.


IIRC he had an older sister and a younger brother


Yes Shari and Ari respectively.

Here is a good 20/20 for those still catching up:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=7577234&page=1

(from 2009, sibs named in here too)

Good to know, I thought Etan was an only child..

I pray for the authorities to bring Etan home...it's been a long, lonely journey and must be torture for the family...:rose:

epiphany
04-19-2012, 05:58 PM
I'm right there and I didnt' know until I saw it just now on the news..Wow after 33 years hopefully the authorities will bring Etan home.

I also just learned the handyman was interviewed at his home today. The reported he is being cooperative as he always had been. It's also been said he used to give Etan a dollar when he'd help him out...so who knows if this man knows anything...What brought LE to the area again?

"Information that was known at the time is being re-examined. It does involve a suspect," he said, according to the Daily News.

A search warrant was obtained after an FBI cadaver-sniffing dog picked up the scent of human remains in the basement about two weeks ago, sources told the Daily News.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/04/nyc-basement-searched-for-remains-of-boy-missing-since-1979/1#.T5CHI45ivs1

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979

LucyOso
04-19-2012, 05:58 PM
From end of video:

Reporter: ...we don't know the whereabouts of the handyman; police are checking

Question:

All this time they have been questioning Ramos, focusing on Ramos and trying to prosecute Ramos. Meanwhile someone else may have been free to hunt down other children for 33 years. What I do not understand, is if the police wanted to investigate this man, why...why...why...did they allow distressed parents to make a decision based on being friends with the guy. This is not the parent's fault. Does anyone have any insight as to why the police lost objectivity and ruled out the handyman originally? Thanks!

LisaB
04-19-2012, 06:00 PM
http://www.mail.com/news/us/1220822-nyc-basement-searched-boy-missing-1979.html#.7518-stage-hero1-2

In the past few months, the official said, investigators had received information that Etan's remains might be buried in the basement. Then, within the past few weeks, an FBI dog indicated the possible presence of human remains in the space, prompting the decision to dig.

LiveLaughLuv
04-19-2012, 06:02 PM
They are reporting that today's activity occurred because the investigation went off in a completely new direction, with a new suspect.

For many years, it was assumed that Ramos - the guy sitting in jail for a couple of decades on an unrelated molestation charge - was Etan's kidnapper and killer, but he has been slip-sliding around with semi-confessions, inscrutable statements and partial admissions for years, and I think everyone more or less gave up hope that he would ever give a full confession and tell the parents where their child is.

But today it seems they are setting the Ramos direction aside for now and are investigating a different person. He was described as a family friend, aged 76 (he's that age now, was much younger then, of course), lives in Brooklyn. I caught the name "Miller," didn't catch whether he was questioned back when it happened. I'm sure we will be getting more info in time.

Curiouser and curiouser. I hope they will be able to give at least some closure and resolution to this family. I remember it struck me then, and still does now, that the Patzes never moved, because the mom wanted Etan to be able to find them if he ever comes home.

Since then, I've heard similar things in other cases, but that was the first time, and my heart just broke for that poor lady.

They expect the excavation work to take a few weeks.

@Pookies Mom, you are absolutely right. It was my first thought. They went in there today as high profile as possible. The only thing missing was a marching band to announce their arrival. I think they said that even the Police Commissioner was there. They must have something very solid. Both the FBI and the NYPD would know very well how to stay hidden in plain sight, posing as maintenance or repair crews or something. The fact that a platoon of FBI officers showed up at 8:00 AM without any subterfuge means that they know there is something to find, and they will find it.

This handyman wasn't looked into due the the family insisting he was a good friend. Some tip brought the FBI there with a K9 who indicated human remains. At the time Etan went missing, this handyman in the building their checking now, laid a concrete floor in the basement..so, they will dig it up..listening now..

I pray for Etan to be brought home and given a proper burial..Don't know but the handyman's daughter was interviewed, her dad's cooperating and he didn't do anything and doesn't know anything. He was checked out when this first occured...

LucyOso
04-19-2012, 06:14 PM
This handyman wasn't looked into due the the family insisting he was a good friend. Some tip brought the FBI there with a K9 who indicated human remains. At the time Etan went missing, this handyman in the building their checking now, laid a concrete floor in the basement..so, they will dig it up..listening now..

I pray for Etan to be brought home and given a proper burial..Don't know but the handyman's daughter was interviewed, her dad's cooperating and he didn't do anything and doesn't know anything. He was checked out when this first occured...

I read he renovated the basement right after Etan went missing. That is what put him on the radar originally. I am not sure why the police would not pursue it though. Even, if the family felt he was a good friend...confused. Does this happen a lot in investigations? Curious.

Kat
04-19-2012, 06:20 PM
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/04/19/authorities-resume-search-of-home-in-etan-patz-case/

go all the way to the bottom of the article. There is a video, at the end of that video a man explains why this concrete floor was not taken up at the time.

It sounds like perhaps their hands were tied in being able to get a probable cause warrant. Just my take on it. JMHO

AnaTeresa
04-19-2012, 06:21 PM
I read he renovated the basement right after Etan went missing. That is what put him on the radar originally. I am not sure why the police would not pursue it though. Even, if the family felt he was a good friend...confused. Does this happen a lot in investigations? Curious.

This was a long time ago - child abduction investigations have evolved significantly since then.

carole
04-19-2012, 06:28 PM
This was a long time ago - child abduction investigations have evolved significantly since then.

BBM

I agree.

Thirty-three years ago, it was generally assumed that most abductions were by strangers. We've learned in the years following that many children are abducted/murdered by people they or the family know.

Woe.be.gone
04-19-2012, 06:55 PM
Diane Sawyer just covered this case on the news. I thought they were going to report specific findings but they're still digging up the basement of the neighbor's house.
The pain never goes away - you can see it in Etan's father's face as he speaks about what his child must have endured when he realized he was being betrayed by an adult. I hope the case is solved tomorrow.

DLT88
04-19-2012, 07:03 PM
BBM

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Etan was an only child. I tried googling but couldn't find anything one way or the other.

I just read there was an older sibling who was 8 and a younger who was 2. I read so many of the articles but let me try and find that link.

katydid23
04-19-2012, 07:11 PM
I just read there was an older sibling who was 8 and a younger who was 2. I read so many of the articles but let me try and find that link.

I know the siblings can never replace the boy they lost so tragically, but it does soothe me that they had their other children to raise there. I cannot imagine staying in that apartment all of these years without the other children to bring them some joy and distraction. :rose;

Sleuthster
04-19-2012, 07:16 PM
Hoping they find him and there can be some closure for the family.

LucyOso
04-19-2012, 07:17 PM
I have a question. I am not sure if this is off-topic. But, IF they do find Etan or evidence of Etan's passing where they are searching...what happens to Ramos? Can he sue? After all, while he is a known pedophile, he has spent years wrongly accused for this. I know Etan's dad sends Ramos a missing child poster each year on the anniversary that say "what did you to do to my little boy." Is there recourse for Ramos (not that I condone or apologize for his behavior)? I am more curious about the law...

Sleuthster
04-19-2012, 07:21 PM
There is a map on this news link with the place they are searching and where Etan lived at the time. Great pics too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132164/FBI-search-Manhattan-apartment-Etan-Patz--33-years-went-missing.html

Reannan
04-19-2012, 07:23 PM
This is the information I always remember reading about Etan. It broke my heart then, and it breaks my heart now. I PRAY that Etan is found, and justice is served:

"Stanley Patz, a photographer, and his wife Julie lived in a loft on Prince Street with their three children: Shira, then age 8; Etan, 6; and Ari, 2."

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/etan_patz/index.html

Interestingly, I also remember reading a while back that Ramos was up for parole in 2012.... wonder if it is related to the current investigation. :waitasec:

Ramos is up for parole in 2012, but Stan Patz, who is 68 now, hopes reopening Etan's case will keep Ramos behind bars. "We're hoping to get a bunch of New Yorkers up in arms saying, 'Hang the bastard!' Patz told the New York Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/05/03/2009-05-03_etan_patzs_dad_wants_to_keep_perv_he_says_kille d_soho_6yrold_in_jail_new_hope_30.html) this month. "Get the pitchforks out."


http://www.aolnews.com/2010/05/27/da-reopens-case-of-first-missing-child-on-milk-carton/

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 07:28 PM
This is amazing news! If his remains are found, it will bring new hope to other parents of missing children. Hopefully the Patz's can finally have a proper burial for him and can feel "some" sort of peace knowing for sure what happened. i can't use the word closure because i can't imagine you can ever have closure when a child is taken away from you.. whether he is found alive or not.

katydid23
04-19-2012, 07:28 PM
I have a question. I am not sure if this is off-topic. But, IF they do find Etan or evidence of Etan's passing where they are searching...what happens to Ramos? Can he sue? After all, while he is a known pedophile, he has spent years wrongly accused for this. I know Etan's dad sends Ramos a missing child poster each year on the anniversary that say "what did you to do to my little boy." Is there recourse for Ramos (not that I condone or apologize for his behavior)? I am more curious about the law...

I don't think so because reportedly he made semi-confessions over the years. He made some false confessions and then retracted them. Is that correct?

epiphany
04-19-2012, 07:30 PM
Police are also speaking with a Brooklyn handyman who worked at 127 Prince.

In 2004, a civil court judge determined Jose Ramos, the boyfriend of Etan's babysitter, was responsible for the boy's death.

However, former Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau long argued there was not enough evidence to bring criminal charges against Ramos, who is currently serving time in Pennsylvania for molesting two boys.

Two years ago, current Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance Jr. reopened the case, though no new evidence was ever found.

http://manhattan.ny1.com/content/news_beats/criminal_justice/159696/police-dig-up-soho-basement-for-possible-new-clues-in-etan-patz-case

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 07:31 PM
This handyman wasn't looked into due the the family insisting he was a good friend. Some tip brought the FBI there with a K9 who indicated human remains. At the time Etan went missing, this handyman in the building their checking now, laid a concrete floor in the basement..so, they will dig it up..listening now..

I pray for Etan to be brought home and given a proper burial..Don't know but the handyman's daughter was interviewed, her dad's cooperating and he didn't do anything and doesn't know anything. He was checked out when this first occured...

I shudder to think the guilt and anguish the family will feel if this was in fact the case and they basically prevented LE from investigating this man :(
Sigh...

LiveLaughLuv
04-19-2012, 07:35 PM
I read he renovated the basement right after Etan went missing. That is what put him on the radar originally. I am not sure why the police would not pursue it though. Even, if the family felt he was a good friend...confused. Does this happen a lot in investigations? Curious.


I have a question. I am not sure if this is off-topic. But, IF they do find Etan or evidence of Etan's passing where they are searching...what happens to Ramos? Can he sue? After all, while he is a known pedophile, he has spent years wrongly accused for this. I know Etan's dad sends Ramos a missing child poster each year on the anniversary that say "what did you to do to my little boy." Is there recourse for Ramos (not that I condone or apologize for his behavior)? I am more curious about the law...

Ramos confessed and recanted...

And Yes, sometimes cases go unsolved for years.

People confess and recant..a new tip leads to something more to look into..

This was a cold case just reopened by the SA...I give him a huge Kudos for doing so and kept it under wraps...Never knew about this till this evening on the news..

what I heard on the news, there is a sealed affidavit leading to a tip, had sonar equipment and a K9 go back to that basement, which both alerted to human remains, well just the K9 the sonar led to images they felt needed to be checked further, disturbances is the word used in regards to the sonar equipment...

Dont quote me I was listening while eating dinner..I'll look for updates...

epiphany
04-19-2012, 07:35 PM
5 PM Update

...The neighbor also said police had been interviewing people recently in the neighborhood about the abduction.

http://gothamist.com/2012/04/19/spotted_fbi_on_prince_and_wooster.php#photo-1

Donjeta
04-19-2012, 07:39 PM
I shudder to think the guilt and anguish the family will feel if this was in fact the case and they basically prevented LE from investigating this man :(
Sigh...

I am sure they will feel a range of very conflicting emotions but I would say that it's the responsibility of the law enforcement to decide who to investigate and who not to. The distraught family can give helpful hints but they can't rule anybody out on the basis that they like him.

Kat
04-19-2012, 07:39 PM
I thought Ramos was in prison for a conviction on different charges. Not related to Etan? That Etan's family brought civil suit against him but that was for 2 Million in damages.

They published the mug shot of OM that I saw earlier:

http://abcnews.go.com/meta/search/imageDetail?format=plain&source=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com%2Fimages%2FUS%2 Fht_othneil_miller_etan_patz_thg_120419

http://florida.arrests.org/Arrests/Othniel_Miller_4640816/

His arrest was in FL but he has property in Brooklyn and it's being reported that he's already been talked to (Village Voice article backthread IIRC posted by WFG)

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 07:42 PM
"We are looking for human remains, clothing or other personal effects of Etan Patz,'' Browne said.

"Information that was known at the time is being re-examined. It does involve a suspect," he said, according to the Daily News.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/04/nyc-basement-searched-for-remains-of-boy-missing-since-1979/1?csp=34news#.T5CiNdXYc1I

Wow... I really hope this case is solved and someone is held accountable. I was 13 and living in NY at the time and i will never, ever forget Etan. His posters were everywhere and it was just one of my first glimpses of the "real" world :(

Kat
04-19-2012, 07:43 PM
ETA: To everyone that has posted on this thread today you got a thanks from me but my thanks buttons are wonky today and not showing up.

passionflower
04-19-2012, 07:43 PM
This gives hope that more studies can be made to prevent abductions and investigtions.
Bring our missing back home to loved ones for proper burial and closure!
(((HUGS))) to all that need it right now.

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 07:45 PM
I am sure they will feel a range of very conflicting emotions but I would say that it's the responsibility of the law enforcement to decide who to investigate and who not to. The distraught family can give helpful hints but they can't rule anybody out on the basis that they like him.

True donjeta...
i just think back in the day, LE did alot more investigating based on "a gut feeling" than hard evidence... but... that will all be revealed I'm sure if precious Etan is found where they think he may be...

ETA: Because "hard evidence" like DNA wasn't available!

epiphany
04-19-2012, 07:51 PM
From Susan Candiotti and Adam Reiss CNN
Feds scour basement where Etan Patz met carpenter, sources say

NEW YORK (CNN) -

Snipped

One day before Etan Patz, 6, disappeared in New York in May of 1979, he apparently encountered a 42-year-old carpenter in a Lower Manhattan basement, which is now being searched by police and federal authorities, according to a source with knowledge of the investigation.

Snipped

Investigators now also want to expand the pool of possible suspects beyond Ramos, a source said, even though he's been considered a key focus of the probe for years.

The carpenter, now 75, is not in custody, though authorities say they know where he is and are currently in contact with him. CNN is not naming the man because he has not been charged with a crime.

Epiph: Not "family friend"?

katydid23
04-19-2012, 07:52 PM
True donjeta...
i just think back in the day, LE did alot more investigating based on "a gut feeling" than hard evidence... but... that will all be revealed I'm sure if precious Etan is found where they think he may be...

ETA: Because "hard evidence" like DNA wasn't available!

I agree. And I really hope they don't blame themselves for any of those decisions. How could they have imagined the nice neighbor,a father himself, was a sick twisted monster.

It makes me wonder though, IF it was the handyman, did he ever act out again? What about the little boy recently who left the foster mothers apt to throw out the trash? And never returned?

Reannan
04-19-2012, 07:54 PM
I want to thank the District Attorney Stuart Grabois, who has refused to EVER let this case be forgotten. He has chased after Jose Antonio Ramos for YEARS... and justifiably so, because Ramos is an admitted pedophile. When Grabois could not prove the murder of Etan by Ramos, he made sure Ramos went to jail for other crimes, which probably helped save other children from abuse. I also want to thank Emily Cohen, the author of "After Etan, The Missing Child That Held America Captive"... she has also helped to keep Etan's case in the media. She actually posted here on WS's years ago - not sure if she still reads, but I appreciate her dedication to seeing Etan's case resolved.

LiveLaughLuv
04-19-2012, 07:58 PM
I agree. And I really hope they don't blame themselves for any of those decisions. How could they have imagined the nice neighbor,a father himself, was a sick twisted monster.

It makes me wonder though, IF it was the handyman, did he ever act out again? What about the little boy recently who left the foster mothers apt to throw out the trash? And never returned?

Patrick Alford...nothing new on him either..

I don't know anything about the handyman..

I also wonder why the police would not continueto investigate someone just due to the family thinking otherwise..I get it was 3 decades ago but still there's intiuition...gut feelings...statements made....I wonder who this tip or affidavit is from...

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:02 PM
Nancy Grace covering this now..

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:02 PM
Nancy is covering the story.

Sleuthster
04-19-2012, 08:02 PM
Here's a news link identifying the handyman
http://abcnews.go.com/US/fresh-search-etan-patz-york-boy-vanished-33/story?id=16171740

Reannan
04-19-2012, 08:06 PM
Hello,

I'm the author of the recently released "AFTER ETAN: The Missing Child Case That Held America Captive" (Grand Central, May 2009). This is the first book ever in thirty years on the case. I'm a former "60 Minutes" producer - I did all the longform television coverage on the Patz case, including the only interview ever with Jose Ramos, the man found responsible for Etan's death.

To finally tell this story, I had complete access and authorization from the very private Patz family, the investigators, and almost everyone else who covered the case. I can finally tell about how the Patz family endured a parent's worst nightmare, then the crazies and the psychics and the hate mail (!); the prosecutor who escaped near death and pursued his suspect out of jurisdiction to finally lock him away…for a DIFFERENT child molestation; the undercover operation behind prison walls where the serial pedophile finally spilled his guts - twists and turns that took the whole thirty years to unravel. It's one of the greatest detective thriller's I've ever heard, and it's all true. AND it's still going on.

As Ernie Allen, the head of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told me, it’s also an important story, about the birth of a movement. PLUS a mobilized public opinion could keep the bad guy behind bars – after more than two decades in prison, he's getting out in three years. As the book explains, he's never been criminally charged for this, even though a civil judge found him responsible for Etan's death. That could change this fallo with a new New York DA, and one of the candidates, a tough woman named Leslie Crocker Snyder, wants to take the case on.

This book lays out the evidence, and the case, for the first time. Read the book and you can make up your mind for yourself, but it will answer so many questions I see on this forum and that people have been asking me throughout the 20 years I've covered this case.

see http://afteretan.com for more info or go to http://tinyurl.com/dzvslc to buy the book on Amazon.

Thanks for your attention to this important case,

Lisa R. Cohen

Can't figure out how to link to the post from 8/6/2009 when Lisa Cohen, the author of the book "After Etan..." posted on WS's about Etan's case. It was post No. 18 of this thread....
I am so thankful to be part of a group that just does NOT forget, and who does NOT give up on cases that are unsolved. I hope Etan's parents know that there are many people in the world that care, and have cared for a long, long, time. I hope Etan's family can find peace, and I pray for justice to whoever harmed this beautiful little boy.

Kat
04-19-2012, 08:06 PM
For those that wanted Ramos address when Etan went missing I think I found it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/16/nyregion/detectives-hope-basement-holds-clue-to-etan-patz.html


234 East Fourth Street on the Lower East Side, where Mr. Ramos was living on May 25, 1979, the day Etan vanished a mile away.

Kat
04-19-2012, 08:07 PM
Can't figure out how to link to the post from 8/6/2009 when Lisa Cohen, the author of the book "After Etan..." posted on WS's about Etan's case. It was post No. 18 of this thread....
I am so thankful to be part of a group that just does NOT forget, and who does NOT give up on cases that are unsolved. I hope Etan's parents know that there are many people in the world that care, and have cared for a long, long, time. I hope Etan's family can find peace, and I pray for justice to whoever harmed this beautiful little boy.

She and Mark K were on HLN and were speaking about this case. (within the last hour)

cartercar
04-19-2012, 08:09 PM
How could FBI and NYPD keep this quiet?

Location of Search:

The neighborhood has boutiques and restaurants in the northern area along Broadway and Prince and Spring Streets. The sidewalks in this area are often crowded with tourists.

A look at the neighborhood here:

http://www.nyc.com/visitor_guide/soho.75863/editorial_review.aspx

They could take a clue from the crew that ripped up our street and made our lives pretty darn inconvenient for a good few months. Something to do with Con Ed, I think.

IOW, even something like this can be camouflaged. Probably lends itself quite well to hiding in plain sight, actually. People are used to all kinds of utility crews jackhammering the streets, often with one utility undoing the patch-up work done by another.

They could have ripped up several blocks worth of a street under guise of being the phone company or electric company, and nobody would have given it a second glance.

Shelby2
04-19-2012, 08:11 PM
She is all over Ramos

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:16 PM
OMG! The ME's van just showed up on the scene!

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:17 PM
What time did the search start today for Etan?

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:19 PM
What time did the search start today for Etan?

I'm not exactly sure but I see news stories going back about 9 hours

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:19 PM
I am not sure if Nancy is live right now, or was live earlier today and it's airing at 8:00 PM EDT.

Sleuthster
04-19-2012, 08:19 PM
How could this guy stay under the radar for 33 years??? If they do find him there I will be shocked. Would make me wonder if this guy is the perp if it was more a case that Etan witnessed something or ticked him off some how more then he was a preditor. You would think there would be other victims if he was a preditor and I dont know of any others over the years in that neighborhood.

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:20 PM
Nancy (and guest) suggesting LE put rats (informants) in with Ramos and perhaps he gave up some info...

Kat
04-19-2012, 08:21 PM
I would assume that the woman that was hired to walk Etan to school (the one who had a relationship with Ramos and subsequently reportedly told LE that Ramos befriended her in order to molest her own child IIRC) would have lived close to the Patz'? Wonder which building she lived in? (that wasn't on NG, that was me thinking out loud)

cluciano63
04-19-2012, 08:23 PM
How could this guy stay under the radar for 33 years??? If they do find him there I will be shocked. Would make me wonder if this guy is the perp if it was more a case that Etan witnessed something or ticked him off some how more then he was a preditor. You would think there would be other victims if he was a preditor and I dont know of any others over the years in that neighborhood.

Wasn't he in prison upstate for a long time? That is what I seem to recall...so he was accounted for, for a long time, I believe...

Watching this though makes you wonder how anyone is ever charged without being caught red-handed or DNA being found...this guy to me is so clearly guilty, LE probably knew it, but could do nothing...and lots of people wonder why Terri Horman is not in jail...there is hardly anything against her, in comparison, IMO...

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:23 PM
I am not sure if Nancy is live right now, or was live earlier today and it's airing at 8:00 PM EDT.

I dunno but i haven't read any articles that stated the Medical Examiner was at the scene. I thought that wouldn't occur unless there was a body to take care of properly...
School me if I'm wrong! This tidbit is getting me excited that they found something.

Kat
04-19-2012, 08:23 PM
OMG! The ME's van just showed up on the scene!

I love what NG does, but today she's workin' my nerve. She needs to get to today's search etc....Instead of rehashing Ramos (IIRC he had a cellmate that tattled on him already)

passionflower
04-19-2012, 08:25 PM
any twitter links? I searched and came up blank..........
what news stations do we have to go by?

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:26 PM
I love what NG does, but today she's workin' my nerve. She needs to get to today's search etc....Instead of rehashing Ramos (IIRC he had a cellmate that tattled on him already)

I know, i know.. but i just want to hug her for devoting so much time to the new findings in this case! haven't seen any TH do so yet....
:)

Kat
04-19-2012, 08:27 PM
OT: Anderson Cooper will have coverage tonight too. My time zone is way off from most of yours so I don't even know when to tell you he is on there.

Rougelatete
04-19-2012, 08:27 PM
Bless the Patz family...I know they are still reeling from the disappearance of their son, even 33 years later. I hope these new developments bring them some measure of closure and peace and that Etan can finally have a proper burial.

It appears that OM may have said something in that recent interview with LE. I hope he confessed and that answers for the Patz family are on the horizon. My thoughts and prayers are with them.


Today's probe, which was reopened by Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance in 2010, began with an interview of Miller.

Based on that interview, law enforcement sources said, a dog was brought to the scene as a warrant was drawn up. The cadaver dog got a positive hit for possible human remains. The warrant was served and the preparations for digging began.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fresh-search-etan-patz-york-boy-vanished-33/story?id=16171740#.T5CcZXgqPLa

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:27 PM
This article is 9 hours old.

Authorities from the city medical examiner's office were also on scene to help determine whether any findings are human remains.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/19/11286057-fbi-nypd-resume-search-for-etan-patz-who-went-missing-in-1979

It looks like the ME was there most of the day and NOT just arriving while Nancy is on air.

My TV does NOT show "LIVE" for Nancy tonight, even though she says she is LIVE. Her LIVE is earlier in the day.

Leilei
04-19-2012, 08:28 PM
I saw this news at work today, and knew that y'all would be all over it. Etan went missing when I was a not-quite teenager, and I remember my mom clamping down on my running off on my own for quite a while. I also remember when the first milk cartons came out, with his picture on them. He is one of the reasons why I follow these cases, as he is the first one that I was really exposed to.

If this beautiful boy is there, I am hoping that they can bring him out of the darkness, so that he can finally rest in peace. JMO.

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:30 PM
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/f-b-i-renews-search-for-etan-patz-in-soho-basement/
The investigators began arriving around 8 a.m. on Thursday. By midmorning, about 40 of them were on the scene.

Patty G.. 8 AM apparently

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:33 PM
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/f-b-i-renews-search-for-etan-patz-in-soho-basement/
The investigators began arriving around 8 a.m. on Thursday. By midmorning, about 40 of them were on the scene.

Patty G.. 8 AM apparently

Makes sense to me. Thank you for finding the information.

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:34 PM
The scene showing on air now is from daylight hours.

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:35 PM
Nancy's person is saying the dog hit on the scent because either 1) he is buried down there or 2) Etan was killed down there...
Okay HUH? 33 years later a cadaver dog can get a scent if a body is NOT there?

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:38 PM
I believe a cadaver dog can pick up the scent even after all these years.

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:39 PM
Everyone let's think as positive as we possibly can that Etan is found there!

Kat
04-19-2012, 08:42 PM
OT: I just googles how many feet it was from Etan's front door to the corner where he was last seen by 2 witnesses. The corner where the lucky brand store is now and where they are digging in the basement. 197 feet. Only 197 feet. :( (just surprised me is all, just sharing)

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:43 PM
I wish they wouldn't talk about informants on air as "some" jails and prisons have TV's.

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:44 PM
http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/56441/


His school never alerted the Patzes to Etan’s absence, and it wasn’t until 3:30 p.m., when he hadn’t returned, that Julie called their neighbors, wondering if he might be with a friend. Twenty minutes later she called the police.

Most still don't which really annoys me. What happened to school volunteers? Get a list of absent kids and call the parents!


Stan and Julie never changed their phone number either; Etan knew it by heart. And in spiral-bound notebooks they kept detailed logs of every call, no matter how crazy or obscene. Tips came in from around the world. A man said he’d picked up a 21-year-old hitching upstate with a kid he was “almost positive” was Etan. A psychic claimed Etan was alive “in a province of Italy.” Closer to home, the police interviewed scores of people connected to the family—even grilling the Patzes themselves—yet one link would go unseen.

This is a really good piece explaining the Etan Patz case...

passionflower
04-19-2012, 08:45 PM
OT: I just googles how many feet it was from Etan's front door to the corner where he was last seen by 2 witnesses. The corner where the lucky brand store is now and where they are digging in the basement. 197 feet. Only 197 feet. :( (just surprised me is all, just sharing)

I think allot of children are killed by people they know nd close to home.......
Sandra Cantu for 1.

Patty G
04-19-2012, 08:50 PM
IMO - What they do NOW in the school systems when a child is not in school, they did not do back when Etan went missing.

In 1979, I lived in New Jersey and only 10 minutes from New York. When my son wasn't in school, the school never called me. Although he was home sick and I was sick also and just went back to sleep, still no one called the house. :(

thefragile7393
04-19-2012, 08:51 PM
The book After Etan was so amazing....it gave such great insights to this case.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

Soulmagent
04-19-2012, 08:53 PM
I am so praying they find Etan. 33 years a 6 year old boy is lost an longed for. I hope for all the missing to be found ,this is the first time I actualy hoped for them to locate a body. If that makes any sence.

Praying for Etans family as I know the news of finding him will still be just as painful as it would have been 33 years ago.

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:55 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/joseph-gelfand-nypd-officer-thinks-jose-ramos-killed-etan-patz-article-1.1064575?localLinksEnabled=false

Joseph Gelfand was a NYPD officer when he arrested Jose Antonio Ramos in August 1982 in Times Square.

He still believes Ramos is Etan Patz' killer, but says if another suspect is found and convicted "at least the parents have closure."

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 08:57 PM
The seven-story building housing 127 Prince Street and the basement being searched was built in 1900. Not to be Neddy Negative here, but it was around for 79 years before Etan disappeared; we can't be sure the cadaver dogs are scenting evidence in the Patz case specifically, even if their indications do point to a dead body either there, or having been there.

---
127 Prince Street #129, New York NY 10012
---
Year built: 1900
Neighborhood: SoHo
Zip: 10012

http://www.trulia.com/homes/New_York/New_York/sold/21635530-127-Prince-St-129-New-York-NY-10012

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 08:59 PM
IMO - What they do NOW in the school systems when a child is not in school, they did not do back when Etan went missing.

In 1979, I lived in New Jersey and only 10 minutes from New York. When my son wasn't in school, the school never called me. Although he was home sick and I was sick also and just went back to sleep, still no one called the house. :(

Well, my son is 13.. 7th grade and I get a call at 8 PM..
A little too late if you ask me. I'm a single mom and he walks to the bus stop every day. Some days I get an uneasy feeling and I worry all day long.
One day the bus was VERY late (I did not get a call) and I can feel what I could compare to Etan's mom's absolute horror for a good 20 minutes until he came home. I can not imagine living a lifetime with that anxiety...
I hope they bring Etan home :please:

norest4thewicked
04-19-2012, 09:05 PM
I read he renovated the basement right after Etan went missing. That is what put him on the radar originally. I am not sure why the police would not pursue it though. Even, if the family felt he was a good friend...confused. Does this happen a lot in investigations? Curious.

LE was not the same LE in 1979 as it is today.

:+:MrTT:+:
04-19-2012, 09:05 PM
live broadcast on the former larry king live show.

http://blog.livenewschat.tv/situation-chatroom/

apparently if was a few minutes of updates. talking about something else now.

Maiko
04-19-2012, 09:15 PM
Prayers that they find him. SO close to home, yet so far away. My heart breaks for Etan's parents.

passionflower
04-19-2012, 09:20 PM
Etan would of been 39 now, I cant help but think of his parents, never seeing him grow up, married, his children. Oh the heartbreak. Today must be mixed emotions, bittersweet.

Sleuthster
04-19-2012, 09:27 PM
Etan had met the handyman the day before and the handyman had given him a $1
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/19/justice/new-york-etan-patz-investigation/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

norest4thewicked
04-19-2012, 09:28 PM
I'm sorry that I am so confused on this, but I am hoping someone can clear it up for me. Was Ramos the original suspect but now they have this other guy? Did BOTH of them live where the basement is? Parents believe it was Ramos and he's in jail for molesting two kids? Who remodeled the basement? Ramos, or the other guy? Sorry...I've read every post on this forum the past couple of hours and still can't figure it out.

Sleuthster
04-19-2012, 09:29 PM
I wonder if thy had talked to Miller during the initial investingation??

Reannan
04-19-2012, 09:34 PM
Whatever happens, I wish for some sort of peace for Etan's parents, and justice for little Etan himself. I have always been a bit confused about the milk carton thing, however. There are numerous missing children cases that I follow, but when I think about the "milk carton" thing, there are three that always come to my mind, and you can find statements on the internet that one or the other of them was "the first missing child on a milk carton". How did that story start? :waitasec: I associate the milk carton identity with Etan Patz (missing May 25, 1979 - New York City, NY), Johnny Gosch (missing September 5, 1982 - Des Moines, Iowa), and Eugene Martin (missing since August 12, 1984 - Des Moines, Iowa).

Reannan
04-19-2012, 09:44 PM
I'm sorry that I am so confused on this, but I am hoping someone can clear it up for me. Was Ramos the original suspect but now they have this other guy? Did BOTH of them live where the basement is? Parents believe it was Ramos and he's in jail for molesting two kids? Who remodeled the basement? Ramos, or the other guy? Sorry...I've read every post on this forum the past couple of hours and still can't figure it out.

I think Ramos was an early suspect, and has consistetly admitted to being with Etan that day, but he "put him on a train to visit his aunt" or something ridiculous. LE never bought his story, (and neither do I), and Ramos has been a HUGE suspect from very early in the case. The Miller guy, was a handyman who had some sort of workshop in the basement they are now digging up. As far as I know, there is no connection with Ramos and the building being excavated today. I have never heard of O. Miller until today. They appear to be REALLY intent on this basement, so I have to assume they have something pretty solid (i.e. a confession) in order to dig this enthusiastically. :waitasec:

"Since then drywall has been put up over the room's brick walls. The drywall will be removed and the bricks examined and tested for blood evidence using advanced forensic techniques that were not available three decades ago, officials said.
The floor will also be dug up in a search for human remains, clothing or other evidence."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fresh-search-etan-patz-york-boy-vanished-33/story?id=16171740

deelytful1
04-19-2012, 09:45 PM
Interesting....

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/04/etan_patz_search_renewed_can_cadaver_dogs_smell_30 _year_old_corpses_.html


Researchers from the University of Alabama, hoping to zero in on how long the scent of death might linger at a crime scene, designed a test for the state police’s cadaver dogs. A single human vertebra, more than 30 years old, was buried 12 inches deep. The dogs were let loose across a 300-by-150-foot plot, and several succeeded in sniffing out the dry bone fragment. So it’s certainly possible that the canines recruited for Etan Patz’s search could detect parts of a 33-year-old body hidden in the basement on Prince Street.

norest4thewicked
04-19-2012, 09:48 PM
I think Ramos was an early suspect, and has consistetly admitted to being with Etan that day, but he "put him on a train to visit his aunt" or something ridiculous. LE never bought his story, (and neither do I), and Ramos has been a HUGE suspect from very early in the case. The Miller guy, was a handyman who had some sort of workshop in the basement they are now digging up. As far as I know, there is no connection with Ramos and the building being excavated today. I have never heard of O. Miller until today. They appear to be REALLY intent on this basement, so I have to assume they have something pretty solid (i.e. a confession) in order to dig this enthusiastically. :waitasec:

"Since then drywall has been put up over the room's brick walls. The drywall will be removed and the bricks examined and tested for blood evidence using advanced forensic techniques that were not available three decades ago, officials said.
The floor will also be dug up in a search for human remains, clothing or other evidence."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fresh-search-etan-patz-york-boy-vanished-33/story?id=16171740

Thank you so much! Now I am understanding this better. If Ramos had nothing to do with the building/basement, no wonder LE wouldn't know where to search.

norest4thewicked
04-19-2012, 09:50 PM
Interesting....

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/04/etan_patz_search_renewed_can_cadaver_dogs_smell_30 _year_old_corpses_.html

There are specialized dogs trained to detect very old human remains. I learned this in the Lisa Irwin forum from one of the SAR posters.

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 09:53 PM
In 1979, did the police know the wood shop/art storage basement was indeed a location where sexual liasons took place?

If so, why did they not dig then - they'd considered it. Were they really so trusting to let Etan's parents alibi for the family friend, without taking further action other than their word?

I know that the general feeling about child kidnappings then was that strangers were the likely suspects. But what we're seeing today just boggles me.

Reannan
04-19-2012, 09:57 PM
Thank you so much! Now I am understanding this better. If Ramos had nothing to do with the building/basement, no wonder LE wouldn't know where to search.

I am not really sure if Ramos had anything to do with that building or not.... I just can't find any reference to it, and I don't recall ever reading anything associated with that location and Ramos. One of the news reports I saw on TV tonight, said something along the lines of "that basement was 'known as an area for sex'". WHAT??? That caught my interest because that can mean a lot of different things... truck stops are known for hook-ups for gay sex.... certain street corners for heterosexual sex... - certain locations for swingers... WHAT WAS THAT BASEMENT known for?? And.... why was it not searched more thoroughly when Etan went missing? Did anyone else see a news report about the basement being 'known as an area for sex'? I will try to find a link. I KNOW I heard it because I poured salsa on the counter instead of on my fajita!

Reannan
04-19-2012, 10:01 PM
Here is some more information about the basement they are digging in:

"Investigators believe that the basement, which housed a wood shop and art-storage space at the time of Etan’s disappearance, was also a known meeting place for sexual liaisons at the time.
In the 1990s, the basement housed the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation (http://leslielohman.org/), which later became the Leslie/Lohman museum, and it is currently used as the museum’s storage space."

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/f-b-i-renews-search-for-etan-patz-in-soho-basement/

norest4thewicked
04-19-2012, 10:04 PM
I am not really sure if Ramos had anything to do with that building or not.... I just can't find any reference to it, and I don't recall ever reading anything associated with that location and Ramos. One of the news reports I saw on TV tonight, said something along the lines of "that basement was 'known as an area for sex'". WHAT??? That caught my interest because that can mean a lot of different things... truck stops are known for hook-ups for gay sex.... certain street corners for heterosexual sex... - certain locations for swingers... WHAT WAS THAT BASEMENT known for?? And.... why was it not searched more thoroughly when Etan went missing? Did anyone else see a news report about the basement being 'known as an area for sex'? I will try to find a link. I KNOW I heard it because I poured salsa on the counter instead of on my fajita!

Yeah...that sounds pretty bizarre and you would think that LE would have considered that area as a potential spot for Etan just because of that nasty coincidence.

passionflower
04-19-2012, 10:05 PM
Here is some more information about the basement they are digging in:

"Investigators believe that the basement, which housed a wood shop and art-storage space at the time of Etan’s disappearance, was also a known meeting place for sexual liaisons at the time.
In the 1990s, the basement housed the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation (http://leslielohman.org/), which later became the Leslie/Lohman museum, and it is currently used as the museum’s storage space."

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/f-b-i-renews-search-for-etan-patz-in-soho-basement/

whoa!:what:

epiphany
04-19-2012, 10:06 PM
The new investigation is also reexamining the decades old assumption that Patz was abducted by convicted pedophile Jose Ramos...

Today's probe, which was reopened by Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance in 2010, began with an interview of Miller.

Based on that interview, law enforcement sources said, a dog was brought to the scene as a warrant was drawn up. The cadaver dog got a positive hit for possible human remains. The warrant was served and the preparations for digging began.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fresh-search-etan-patz-york-boy-vanished-33/story?id=16171740#.T5C4W45ivs0

norest4thewicked
04-19-2012, 10:06 PM
Here is some more information about the basement they are digging in:

"Investigators believe that the basement, which housed a wood shop and art-storage space at the time of Etan’s disappearance, was also a known meeting place for sexual liaisons at the time.
In the 1990s, the basement housed the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation (http://leslielohman.org/), which later became the Leslie/Lohman museum, and it is currently used as the museum’s storage space."

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/f-b-i-renews-search-for-etan-patz-in-soho-basement/

Well then...I guess we now know the kind of sexual liasons that they had there...

passionflower
04-19-2012, 10:06 PM
What do we know about the perp they are looking at now?

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 10:09 PM
What do we know about the perp they are looking at now?
All I've seen are his name, his age, the fact he's not under arrest, that the police are in contact with him, that he has always been cooperative, that he was a friend or acquaintance of the Patz family in 1979, and that Etan was allowed to help him in his wood shop, to clean things up, etc., and for which he was paid a dollar each time.

passionflower
04-19-2012, 10:11 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/new-nyc-search-of-basement-for-remains-of-6-year-old-boy-who-vanished-on-way-to-school-in-1979/2012/04/19/gIQAbfzGUT_story.html

sorry if this was posted before.

epiphany
04-19-2012, 10:14 PM
Here is some more information about the basement they are digging in:

"Investigators believe that the basement, which housed a wood shop and art-storage space at the time of Etan’s disappearance, was also a known meeting place for sexual liaisons at the time.
In the 1990s, the basement housed the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation (http://leslielohman.org/), which later became the Leslie/Lohman museum, and it is currently used as the museum’s storage space."

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/f-b-i-renews-search-for-etan-patz-in-soho-basement/

We at the Leslie-Lohman Museum of Gay & Lesbian Art would like to extend our deepest sympathies to the Patz family regarding the disappearance of their son Etan on May 25, 1979.

With the news of the reopening the investigation due to new information, the FBI is conducting a thorough investigation of Etan’s disappearance, and although there is an annex storage space to the Museum on Prince Street where Etan was last seen, at the time of his disappearance the space had no affiliation with the Museum.

However, we will provide our full cooperation to the FBI to help them achieve resolution to this case.

http://www.galleristny.com/2012/04/leslie-lohman-museum-on-etan-patz-search-we-will-provide-our-full-cooperation/

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 10:14 PM
This was an interesting tidbit from the Village Voice link I posted earlier; the info was first pubished in the New York Post; however, the VV reporter couldn't confirm it through its own sources:

The New York Post reports that after being presented with the scent evidence, Miller asked investigators "what if the body was moved?" However, our source could not confirm that report.
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/04/etan_patz_disap.php

Kat
04-19-2012, 10:15 PM
In 1979, did the police know the wood shop/art storage basement was indeed a location where sexual liasons took place?

If so, why did they not dig then - they'd considered it. Were they really so trusting to let Etan's parents alibi for the family friend, without taking further action other than their word?

I know that the general feeling about child kidnappings then was that strangers were the likely suspects. But what we're seeing today just boggles me.

WFG I'm not so sure that LE didn't investigate OM based on what the parents reportedly said about him.

There is a video backthread where former LE is speaking to local news (I bumped the link for the video at the bottom of the link) and that former LE was in the apartment soon after Etan went missing.

What I'm taking from all the articles I read today and some I read from back in the 80's (located Ramos' address from back then but didn't read most of the archived articles) is that OM was on the suspect list. In fact, there were quite a few on that list. But, only Ramos' name has been published before now because he was the lead suspect.

(My own thoughts: Which makes sense if you look at this case cirumstantially he looks guilty, a judge thought so too)

But, back to the basement and the search prior. This former LE said that the search warrant (and I'm thinking also the affidavit for the warrant) would name exactly why they would be searching here now.

He said IIRC that they did search this building at first but a new concrete floor had been poured. They wanted to take it up.

OM reportedly said that he had just poured that floor and if they did that they would have to pay for it.

Then there was a general discussion of having enough information to obtain a warrant to remove that concrete floor in that basement based on what info they had at the time and that it would have to be a warrant issued to the owner of the bldg etc...

Which to be honest, makes sense. We see that now. If there isn't enough probable cause they can't get a warrant. They just can't. Not to go in and destroy someone's property based on a hunch.

He also said that there more than likely was new information that lead to this digging, which IMHO was probably uncovered when the case was reopened. It looks to me like they've been going over all the case files with a fine tooth comb. KWIM?

I also read an article today and IIRC it was one you posted WFG (from the village voice? might not have been though) LE has conducted interviews this week in that neighborhood and it was reported in an article that it was Etan's Mother who directed LE in OM's direction.

Just my take on things as of right now. Could always change when we get more info. :) All JMHO.

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 10:17 PM
SoHo '79 - good context about the neighborhood at the time of Etan's disappearance:

Amid Inquiry, SoHo Recalls a Less-Fashionable Past (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/amid-etan-patz-investigation-soho-recalls-the-old-neighborhood.html) (New York Times)

PaperTigers
04-19-2012, 10:19 PM
I'm excited by the news. I've long been interested in this case, and never thought the day would come with a significant lead like this! I'm just wondering how they could've missed that building, given how thorough they were, supposedly, in searching the area soon after Etan's disappearance. Did the source provide the tip, coming out of nowhere recently?

epiphany
04-19-2012, 10:20 PM
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/04/etan_patz_disap.php

One of those leads came from Patz's mother, Julie, who told authorities they should speak with Miller.

After speaking with Miller, law enforcement officials took "scent pads" -- which allows investigators to "collect scent evidence from hard to access places" without destroying any other evidence, like fingerprints -- to the basement of the building at 127 Prince Street, where Miller had a workshop at the time of Patz's disappearance.

The scent pads from the basement were then taken to a cadaver dog, who got a "hit," which indicates human remains are -- or were -- somewhere in the basement.

passionflower
04-19-2012, 10:22 PM
Additionally, sources say the "target" of the investigation is a neighborhood handyman named Othneil Miller, 75, who would often pay Patz a few dollars to help him out around his shop.
BBM...........other victims???
when I think wood shop, I think of saws, coffin etc.

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 10:22 PM
I also read an article today and IIRC it was one you posted WFG (from the village voice? might not have been though) LE has conducted interviews this week in that neighborhood and it was reported in an article that it was Etan's Mother who directed LE in OM's direction. .
Thanks. Hadn't seen the specific thing on the poured concrete; did read something about new drywall going up just after the disappearance. Don't think it was the VV articles though that said the mother pointed the finger. I saw a Wall Street Journal article above that indicated that the parents had vouched for Mr Miller.

ETA
WRONG AGAIN AM I! You're right. epiphany just posted above the specific sentence from the Voice blog.

Kat
04-19-2012, 10:22 PM
I saw that tidbit too that you posted above WFG. If that was indeed said that would be enough to get a warrant. and pronto IMHO.

:+:MrTT:+:
04-19-2012, 10:23 PM
Lisa Cohen could not answer my question
3 years ago.
Because the answer was not in her book.
She never had the opportunity to interview the "handyman"

Kat
04-19-2012, 10:25 PM
Thanks. Hadn't seen the specific thing on the poured concrete; did read something about new drywall going up just after the disappearance. Don't think it was the VV articles though that said the mother pointed the finger. I saw a Wall Street Journal article above that indicated that the parents had vouched for Mr Miller.

So sorry! My apologies also to the member who posted this link backthread as well.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/fbi_da_searching_soho_building_55Zi00yZZdehVQrhqYs oPM


Investigators recently interviewed Patz’s mother Julie, who told them they should talk to Miller, of Quincy Street in Brooklyn.

passionflower
04-19-2012, 10:25 PM
Could Miller after 33 years of getting away with his crime (if he did it) at his age start to say 'odd' things that lead to the tip? gut feelings of LE?

Kat
04-19-2012, 10:27 PM
Thanks so much epiph! :) You've given me hope in my memory, at least it's not fading as fast as I think with old age! :)

passionflower
04-19-2012, 10:28 PM
Oh if only the perp would talk!!!

passionflower
04-19-2012, 10:31 PM
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/04/etan_patz_disap.php

investigation could take up to 5 days........

epiphany
04-19-2012, 10:33 PM
Oh if only the perp would talk!!!

Interview and new questioning techniques may have yielded some half-truths which then led to the scent pads, etc.

passionflower
04-19-2012, 10:34 PM
http://manhattan.ny1.com/content/top_stories/159696/police-search-soho-basement-for-possible-new-clues-in-etan-patz-case

video and pictures

On Thursday, the law enforcement agents spent 10 hours in the 13-foot by 62-foot basement, noting the position of every object

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 10:35 PM
I get the feeling that the original detectives working the case discounted the "sexual liasons were known to occur in that space" thing - this was SoHo, after all - and when that aspect was looked at with fresh eyes, a new theory of the case arose, one involving the person who rented that space; possibly, persons known to have been friends or acquaintances of Mr Miller at the time were pulled in for chats. Fresh evidence may have come down that avenue.

Reannan
04-19-2012, 10:35 PM
We at the Leslie-Lohman Museum of Gay & Lesbian Art would like to extend our deepest sympathies to the Patz family regarding the disappearance of their son Etan on May 25, 1979.

With the news of the reopening the investigation due to new information, the FBI is conducting a thorough investigation of Etan’s disappearance, and although there is an annex storage space to the Museum on Prince Street where Etan was last seen, at the time of his disappearance the space had no affiliation with the Museum.

However, we will provide our full cooperation to the FBI to help them achieve resolution to this case.

http://www.galleristny.com/2012/04/leslie-lohman-museum-on-etan-patz-search-we-will-provide-our-full-cooperation/

Just to clarify - they are searching the basement where Othneil Miller had a workshop when Etan went missing (1979). The address is at 127 Prince Street. There is currently a Lucky Brand store at street level (which comes up on Google Maps, Street View). The gay/lesbian art gallery, Leslie/Lohman Gay and Lesbian Museum of Art is located about 4 blocks away at 26 Wooster Street. The museum has an annex in the basement that they are digging up. The Leslie/Lohman organization was only established in 1990, so they probably have NOTHING to do with this case - but the content of their organization is obviously very sexual, and there are news reports that indicate some sort of sexual activity was a cultural phenomenon in that basement back in 1979. We need to know WHAT was in that building back then.

Kat
04-19-2012, 10:37 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/in-etan-patz-case-police-begin-new-search-for-remains.html

If this article has already been posted my apologies in advance.

(says it was posted in the last half hour to internet)

snipped:


according to the law enforcement official, Mr. Miller was interviewed by Federal Bureau of Investigation agents, and when the possibility was raised that the boy had been buried in the basement, he blurted out, “What if the body was moved?” the official said.

unnamed official but now we are seeing that in MSM.


The basement being searched — at 127B Prince Street, at the corner of Wooster Street — had also been used by the SoHo Playgroup, a parent-led space for preschool children. A woman who had participated in the group as a child said she believed Etan was a member of the playgroup.

Wonder if this is accurate?


“I think that there is guarded optimism that they’re going to find something,” an official said.

wow.


More than a decade ago, Mr. Miller invited the police to come in and examine the basement, suggesting that they could tear up the floor if they wanted, but that they would have to pay to replace it, a person involved in the inquiry at the time said. Because Mr. Miller was not a suspect, they did not take him up on his offer, the person said.

Slightly different retelling but pretty much the same. Either way, this time they can clear him and move on or Etan was there and hopefully they find him and bring him home.

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 10:44 PM
Newest Wall Street Journal article posted 39 minutes ago; not sure what's new from its last appearance:


[Mr Miller] just lives alone with his daughter. He's a good man, he's a quiet man," said neighbor Kareem Bryant, 39 years old. "Sundays you see him with his cane going to church."

Steve Kuzma, the building manager at 127B Prince St. since 1977, didn't remember Mr. Miller and had only vague memories of Etan. He said FBI agents in recent weeks came to the building three times to look at the basement, which he described as "pretty clean." On the third visit, the agents brought a dog.

[NYPD spokesman Paul Browne] said the location had been examined in the past. He declined to elaborate other than to say it "was not a tip" that led to the search..
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303425504577354310311948988.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

epiphany
04-19-2012, 10:48 PM
Investigators are working on the theory that the handyman, OM, killed the boy and buried him there, one law enforcement official said.

In recent days, according to the law enforcement official, Mr. M was interviewed by Federal Bureau of Investigation agents, and when the possibility was raised that the boy had been buried in the basement, he blurted out, “What if the body was moved?” the official said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/in-etan-patz-case-police-begin-new-search-for-remains.html?smid=tw-nytmetro&seid=auto

strawberry
04-19-2012, 10:48 PM
Wow! Look at al these posts for a long lost little boy. I hope they findthe angel so his poor mother can have him home from school...finally..after 33 years.

Kat
04-19-2012, 10:55 PM
Just to clarify - they are searching the basement where Othneil Miller had a workshop when Etan went missing (1979). The address is at 127 Prince Street. There is currently a Lucky Brand store at street level (which comes up on Google Maps, Street View). The gay/lesbian art gallery, Leslie/Lohman Gay and Lesbian Museum of Art is located about 4 blocks away at 26 Wooster Street. The museum has an annex in the basement that they are digging up. The Leslie/Lohman organization was only established in 1990, so they probably have NOTHING to do with this case - but the content of their organization is obviously very sexual, and there are news reports that indicate some sort of sexual activity was a cultural phenomenon in that basement back in 1979. We need to know WHAT was in that building back then.

This is from Lisa's book.

(link to some of it here, I was reading so you'll have to toggle pages to find this entry)

http://books.google.com/books?id=pz7ov90EpEoC&pg=PT31&lpg=PT31&dq=etan+patz+jamaican+handyman&source=bl&ots=NhiqcHxPDT&sig=OiVm-l5hQ4IhFGcPSIbbtjj2_A4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bGqQT-nqF8XhiAKx7b2GAw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=etan%20patz%20jamaican%20handyman&f=false

And Lisa wrote:

"Miller's basement office operated out of the same building as the first gay erotic art gallery, whose owners were also questioned with intensity."

FWIW, I don't see that Lisa described OM as being listed as a family friend in her book. We might want to make sure that is an accurate report. Instead it is described that (Etan) is his little friend.

Also, I haven't googled to see what the name of the first gay erotic art gallery was in NY. Don't know if that info is available.

Yoda
04-19-2012, 10:58 PM
??? According to the NYTimes that building was home to a co-op playgroup also!!!! A woman said Etan's sister and Mom used to attend but she didn't know if Etan ever did.
So a known sex liaison place and playgroup in the building?


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/amid-etan-patz-investigation-soho-recalls-the-old-neighborhood.html

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 10:59 PM
Short but good little NYT article: Etan Patz's Disappearance Still Haunts Many SoHo Residents (http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/159743/etan-patz-s-disappearance-still-haunts-many-soho-residents)

---
"What's enlightening is the fact it's not forgotten about. It's been 30 years and obviously there are a lot of people still working on it which is pretty nice to know," said neighbor Neal Edelson.

"You know something? It's never a cold case. If it's a kid missing, you've got to do everything you can, no matter how long it takes," said a local.
---

Reannan
04-19-2012, 11:00 PM
Well... I am not quiet sure what to make of this. I don't think it violates TOS because the general info is already out in the media (for anyone that cares to google the addresses involved - And you KNOW reporters - if they are worth a dang, are all over it - I would be). Anyways - from the early 1970's up until 1980 (a year after Etan went missing), there was a PLAYGROUP of children in the basement they are digging up!!! WTF??? "The SoHo Playgroup". I don't know what to say or how to process this. The 'two local business owners' that 'donated a basement space on the corner of Prince and Wooster' are the two guys that currently own the Leslie-Lohman Gallery of Gay and Lesbian Art. :banghead::banghead::what:

"I met most of my old-time SoHo friends at the SoHo Playgroup, which was started by a bunch of neighborhood mothers as a series of playdates in various homes and at Thompson Street Playground (now called Vesuvio Playground (http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/vesuvioplayground/highlights/6535)) around 1970. After that, for a time they met at the Children’s Aid Society (http://www.childrensaidsociety.org/) until two local building owners, Leslie Lohman Museum of Gay and Lesbian Art - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, donated a basement space on the corner of Prince and Wooster (under the restaurant FOOD, now the site of the Lucky Store). The Playgroup parents cleaned out the basement, put down tiles, and painted the walls. Once the Playgroup moved into its own space, it became a bit more structured and organized. Cynthia, a teacher, was hired for $50 cash per week and the parents paid $20 per child per week and were required to “work” one day per week. The Playgroup operated weekday mornings, and each morning a group of three parents would help Cynthia look after the fifteen children, thus giving the children a fun place to play and socialize while the other parents had some free time. An “after-school” program was also set up where groups of five children each would visit a rotating list of lofts to play during the afternoon hours.
I attended the SoHo Playgroup from 1972, around when it opened in the Prince Street space, until I was old enough to enter kindergarten at P.S.3 (no such thing as pre-K back then!). My sister also attended, from around 1974-1977. Cynthia was the teacher there the entire time we attended, and I think it stayed open for a few more years, until around 1980."

http://sohomemory.com/2011/01/12/the-soho-playgroup/

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 11:03 PM
first gay erotic art gallery was in NY. Don't know if that info is available.
I think this is the one; it operated at one time from an address on Prince Street: The Leslie Lohman Museum (Wiki (http://bit.ly/HXKDRG))

The Leslie Lohman Museum was founded by J. Frederic "Fritz" Lohman, ASID and Charles W. Leslie. The two men had been collecting art for several years, and mounted their first exhibition of gay art in their loft on Prince Street in New York City in 1969.
This is not to say that the museum, its founders, its artists, or its visitors were in any way involved. It is now a prestigious institution and, undoubtedly, suffered the prejudices of its time - this may be the source of the rumor that the space was notorious for sexual liasons, in fact - prejudice against the gay community.

In April 2012, it was accredited as an officially recognised museum by the State of New York and the name was changed to its current name from the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation.

Kat
04-19-2012, 11:04 PM
I think we all know that back in the late 70's what the general treatment was of gays and I'm so glad that it has changed and continues to change--(I have several within my own family that are out) but we have to look at the situation from 1979.

And, that was before the rise and ID of ARC or AIDS. (I've lost a cousin and a few friends to AIDS over the years) Therefore, there were places that men/men women/women who were shunned by the general population would meet and have contact. IIRC there were also bathhouses in NYC that were used for this purpose.

The report this morning was that there was a long dark hall that lead back into where there was art storage and a workshop. In my mind there were probably several rooms within that basement. JMHO. The long dark hallway would have offered an opportunity for a quick liason thereby earning it the name of a place people go to have sex.

I did google the first gay erotic art gallery

Leslie Lohman Museum of Gay and Lesbian Art - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The Leslie Lohman Museum was founded by J. Frederic "Fritz" Lohman, ASID and Charles W. Leslie.[6] The two men had been collecting art for several years, and mounted their first exhibition of gay art in their loft on Prince Street in New York City in 1969.

Kat
04-19-2012, 11:06 PM
Thanks everyone! :) I'm too slow haha! You all are great :D

Reannan
04-19-2012, 11:06 PM
I think this is the one; it operated at one time from an address on Prince Street: The Leslie/Lohman Museum of Gay and Lesbian Art (Wiki (http://bit.ly/HXKDRG))

Then from the link I just posted, they donated the space for the children's 'play group' that existed in the basement they are now digging up to look for Etan's body. What the heck is wrong with this picture - except everything!!! :sick:

passionflower
04-19-2012, 11:07 PM
I wonder if 'handyman' did jobs outside SOHO..............
If he did kill a child once, or is / was a pediphile, are there more victims in 33
years, I would think so........JMOO

Kat
04-19-2012, 11:13 PM
I think this is the one; it operated at one time from an address on Prince Street: The Leslie Lohman Museum (Wiki (http://bit.ly/HXKDRG))

This is not to say that the museum, its founders, its artists, or its visitors were in any way involved. It is now a prestigious institution and, undoubtedly, suffered the prejudices of its time - this may be the source of the rumor that the space was notorious for sexual liasons, in fact - prejudice against the gay community.

I agree, I also don't think the children would have had access to any of the holdings within the owner's collection of art.

But it gives us an idea of what was in that bldg prior to Etan and after Etan going missing and gives us the impression that this was still an arty neighborhood rather than what it is now which, pardon my lack of the correct slang, but yuppie maybe? Upscale-ish? :) I hope you get what I mean hah.

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 11:14 PM
Another take on the dollar/newly poured floor thing:

---
At the time of his disappearance, Etan's mother told police that her 6-year-old son had been holding the dollar in his hand as he set off for school that morning. She had suggested he put it in his pocket, but he told her that he planned to stop and buy a soda before boarding his school bus at a stop two blocks from their SoHo home.

The boy’s route would have taken him past the workshop of handyman Othneil Miller at 127 Prince Street. Miller was said by law-enforcement agents and in press accounts to have poured a new concrete floor there shortly after her son vanished.

For reasons that are not entirely clear, the initial probe never focused on Miller. One detective suggests that the original investigators thought that Miller’s giving the dollar to Patz was “just a nice thing to do.”
---
Julie Patz had forgotten neither the dollar nor the newly poured floor. She is said by investigators to have suggested that Miller was worth a look.
---
much more at Daily Beast: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/the-nypd-unearths-the-etan-patz-missing-child-case-33-years-later.html

Kat
04-19-2012, 11:16 PM
Then from the link I just posted, they donated the space for the children's 'play group' that existed in the basement they are now digging up to look for Etan's body. What the heck is wrong with this picture - except everything!!! :sick:

I have to sign off now. But Reannan I thought to myself when I saw that---hmm boy it would be easy to get him to come down into the basement quickly before school if he was already familiar with the basement and associated it with his playgroup.

You know, perps will use any manipulation to get their target.

I'm going to be thinking of Etan tonight and I hope hope hope he gets to come home soon. :(

Rougelatete
04-19-2012, 11:17 PM
I think we need to be careful, here. Speaking as a WS verified mental health counselor, I would like to point out the following things:

* The most prominent and reliable of scientific studies have demonstrated time and again that gay/lesbian sexual orientation has no bearing on whether or not someone will become a child molester. In fact, it appears to be quite the opposite. One study of 175 randomly-selected child molesters found that all of them identified as heterosexuals in their adult personal views of their own sexual orientations. Another study examined 352 medical charts of offenders and found that less than 1% of them could be identified as gay or lesbian.

* It is a common stereotype to believe that homosexuals are child molesters and this is not something that is backed up by scientific data (again, most studies have shown that the vast majority of child molesters are heterosexual adult males).

Based on all of the available scientific data, I believe the greatest threat to the children in the SoHo playgroup was likely a heterosexual male, not the gay/lesbian museum and its patrons/workers. And, I'm not even sure the SoHo playgroup has anything at all to do with the disappearance of Etan Patz. All we know for sure now is that two child molesters are being looked at as possible suspects. I kindly ask that everyone be careful with their assumptions.

:gthanks:

wfgodot
04-19-2012, 11:19 PM
I agree, I also don't think the children would have had access to any of the holdings within the owner's collection of art.

But it gives us an idea of what was in that bldg prior to Etan and after Etan going missing and gives us the impression that this was still an arty neighborhood rather than what it is now which, pardon my lack of the correct slang, but yuppie maybe? Upscale-ish? :) I hope you get what I mean hah.
SoHo in 1979 meant many different things to many different people. It had transitioned not long before from a working district to one artists sought for rentals and exhibition space; at the same time, it was attracting what we did call yuppies. And there was also the seamy element that all interesting locations in every major city seem to have.

Reannan
04-19-2012, 11:20 PM
I have friends and family that are from both the gay and lesbian community. They are wonderful people, and I am confident they value children as much as I do.... which is enough to get in a fight and die for. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. I defend my friends and family to live their life without persecution - as I demand my life to be lived. This situation is heading into an arena that is politically charged, but that is why we have a justice system in our country - one that my family members have died to defend. I am SO DANG THRILLED that LE has not forgotten Etan!!! We may not be able to bring him back, but maybe - just maybe - our society can demand justice for him... he deserved the right to live to become an adult version of the beautiful soul he was. His picture has been engraved on my brain for YEARS!!!! God Bless you Etan - God Bless your family, and everyone that has cared about you, and refused to give up on finding you.

epiphany
04-19-2012, 11:21 PM
Just to clarify - they are searching the basement where Othneil Miller had a workshop when Etan went missing (1979). The address is at 127 Prince Street. There is currently a Lucky Brand store at street level (which comes up on Google Maps, Street View). The gay/lesbian art gallery, Leslie/Lohman Gay and Lesbian Museum of Art is located about 4 blocks away at 26 Wooster Street. The museum has an annex in the basement that they are digging up. The Leslie/Lohman organization was only established in 1990, so they probably have NOTHING to do with this case - but the content of their organization is obviously very sexual, and there are news reports that indicate some sort of sexual activity was a cultural phenomenon in that basement back in 1979. We need to know WHAT was in that building back then.
Respectfully BBM.

The building above the investigation was an artists’ co-op, he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/amid-etan-patz-investigation-soho-recalls-the-old-neighborhood.html

The new search focused on a basement area that had been used as a workshop by a carpenter and handyman from Etan’s building. Investigators are working on the theory that the handyman, OM, killed the boy and buried him there, one law enforcement official said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/in-etan-patz-case-police-begin-new-search-for-remains.html

RoseTree
04-19-2012, 11:22 PM
I think the fact that a museum for homosexual art exists there is just a coincidence with a time difference of 20 years.

passionflower
04-19-2012, 11:24 PM
I have to sign off now. But Reannan I thought to myself when I saw that---hmm boy it would be easy to get him to come down into the basement quickly before school if he was already familiar with the basement and associated it with his playgroup.

You know, perps will use any manipulation to get their target.
I'm going to be thinking of Etan tonight and I hope hope hope he gets to come home soon. :(

BBM if Etan wanted a soda? (like mom said)perp could of offered him one.
Or another $ to do something quick.............children are so innocent!
Mom must have a mother's intuition to name a person after 33 years.
IMO, she thought it was him from the beginning and was never heard???:please:

meganx3xo
04-19-2012, 11:27 PM
I think it's really interesting/concerning that most people think Ramos did it. There is a cop claiming he thinks Ramos did it. I honestly have no idea what to think.

How far did Ramos live from Prince street? Thanks!