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watchinginky
06-10-2011, 02:44 PM
His Honor

16359

JustMeDeb
06-10-2011, 02:44 PM
LOL JB. Isn't your whole defense throwing everything against the wall and see what sticks? Kettle meet pot :)

Chiquita71
06-10-2011, 02:44 PM
HHJP: what is the relavancy?

JA: whether the duct tape was the cause of death. this shows that one piece of duct tape was sufficent, although there were three to end the life of Caylee Maire. I know it is graphic...

my heart is beating fast. I hope the judge will allow this in.

JA: the defense is contesting whether the tape is the murder weapon and I am contending it is.

HHJP: Mr. Baez

JB: I have been hearing a lot of testimony about chloroform and today it is duct tape, we seem to find ourselves in a position of throwing anything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Yes, he just said that...

JB: this disgusting display...the proper way would be to the measurements...

my hands are shaking too much to type.

:no:

rosepetal1065
06-10-2011, 02:44 PM
NO he (JB) did not just say, the SA is throwing things to the wall and seeing what sticks..

Drama Queen
06-10-2011, 02:44 PM
JB: "I don't know where were at."
JB, you are in the courthouse in Orange County. You are an attorney for ICA who is accused of murdering her daughter CAYLEE!

Amster
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
OMG....tape was the murder weapon. ICA is totally mad

SleuthinCa
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
I cannot believe that she can sit there and look at that video with that GLARE on her face. Pure evil.

ladybug
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
OMG! JB talking about SA "throwing everything against the wall and seeing what sticks". The irony!

JB doesn't want SA to introduce video of tape being placed over a model of Caylee's head to show that it could be used as murder weapon.

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
I bet HHJP lets it in.

trigger
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Wow...

21merc7
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
...I think this is going to be tricky

Hmmm, props are props, hmmm

McDuffy v. State....

jon_burrows
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Well, well, well...she couldn't bear to look at the pics of Caylee's skull yesterday, but now that the jury is out of the room, she's completely transfixed on the screen that is allegedly showing pics of Caylee's skull.


She didn't get sick either.

IMO

costalpilot
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
So if ICA actually lost it in front of the jury and had an uncontrolled meltdown would that cause this to be a mistrial?

dont know but anything is possible

in our judicial system

JenniferTx
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
She looks like she is going to blow a gasket any second now. Didn't anyone ever tell her that her face might freeze looking like that.

KathrynL
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
JB says SA throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks. Pot, meet kettle.

Pooh
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Notice she is not crumbling into herself or Sims as the JURY IS NOT THERE!!!??

TWO thumbs up on this post. Post of the Day!!

Linda7NJ
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
It didn't horrorfy his client to tears....

MissJames
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Here's an idea JB .Let's pull out your big ole notepad and draw Caylee's face with the duct tape on there ! Would that work better for you?

Pink Panther
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Chloroform and duct tape are part of the evidence and the State is "throwing everything against the wall to see if it sticks"?

Eidetic
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Mr. Ashton loves you Caylee!

Whisperer
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
I say they are trying to upstage the testimony of Dr. G. with this debacle...

Bobbarita
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
HHJP the walking case law encyclopedia...

Softail
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
"McDuffy vs. State"

CJBP is telling them to review the case above.

DesSands
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Whew from that look I'm glad I'm not anywhere near her and so glad she's feeling better now. :rolleyes:

whiteangora
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
CD is a pic Caylee and Casey with superimposed images of Caylee over the skull? WTH

Baez has a lot of nerve calling this fantasy after his ridiculous opening statement.

Carolina Girl
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
So instead of taking the skull and superimposing a photo of Caylee with duct tape over mouth and nose. They did it the other way around? A picture, duct tape, skeleton/ Well someone asked they do it...

Chiquita71
06-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Go ahead and bring up the chloroform Jose, that is ALSO part of what murdered Caylee too. My hands are shaking so bad!

BigFatMommyDog
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
JB is accusing the state of ' throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks."

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahhaaa.........

Did he really think chloroform was COD - really?

MsFacetious
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
No Judge, do not help him out by telling him which case to reference.... grrrrrr.

Mountain_Kat
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
HHJP looks pissed!

QueenD
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
Judge printing more Fl statues needs to read about this. It may be in ya'll.

grandmaj
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
Is he schooling Baez again?

marie-chantal
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
oh god, oh my stars...terrible, how can casey look at that and not cry? monster she is jmho


BBM...she can only "cry" when the jury is present.

Apparently, she can't bring herself to look at these pics when the jury is in the room, but when they're gone, she gives us the real Casey: angry and with no signs of being distraught over her her dead child.
MOO

stilettos
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
Why didn't the ICA start crying and snotting buggies in her snot rag when she viewed the film of Caylee???????? No jury that's why. ARGH

suzihawk
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
Oh my! Did Baez just accuse the SA of throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks?! Really? REALLY, Baez? OMG!

patriciah
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
from what I'm hearing about the time lapse photos, I don't think they should be allowed in....

Wholehearted
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
Is JP printing out this case for everyone's reference?

amysmom
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
According to twitter: Video in courtroom shows Caylee turning into a skeleton. #CaseyAnthony

And ICA watched every second of it.

She sure did & not 1 single tear OR sick look..Just angry disbelief (the GALL! of the state) at the sight of her daughter turning into a skeleton..I have ALL the proof I need now to know she's been putting on one HELL of a SHOW for us, the media, & the jury!

anb
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
Please let this in, HHJB!!

ZsaZsa
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
:lol: JB is accusing the state of throwing things against the wall to see what sticks!

Oh the irony is rich! :lol:

Really! Words fail me.
Just laugh!

Amster
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
HHJP won't allow it. IMO

Tiki
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
what is he READING????

hahahaha

Pooh
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me...... All of my WONDERFUL Websleuthers out there, Is there any possible way that these Jurors can have ANY doubt left (that she's guilty)after hearing what Dr. G had to say????? She blew me away! Can any of you please give me your thoughts (which I respect 100%) on what the jury is thinking about C.M.'s cross examination??? Most of his questions really confused me? (Which isn't hard to do...lol)Is it just me or does anyone feel the same way?

Thank you

Dr. G. layed it out perfectly. The jury has NO more doubt. imo

costalpilot
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
I bet HHJP lets it in.

ill take that bet: shot of tecquila

wandering
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
Baez! He did go there and say SA is throwing everything against the wall and see what sticks!Projection. That is what the DT is doing.

KenoshaKid
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
JB irritated that he thought the SA was saying chloroform was COD and now they are changing it to the duct tape. LOL!

Linda7NJ
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
Misleading the jury??? he said that w/ a straight face...:floorlaugh:

essies
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
DANG!!!! HHJP is faster than lightening!!! Printing out case to present to lawyers!!!:great:

Kateyes
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
I must add to the discussion that the current expression on ICA's face is one I have not seen before. I think they are looking at a picture of Caylee smiling, superimposed upon the photo of the skull,to show where the duct tape was, and how it (paraphrasing here) covered her face. To illustrate how the duct tape caused her death. This is what I got from the info at the bottom of the screen. Apparently, JB and the DT find this to be over-the-top.

2door73chevy
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
Does anyone know the purpose of showing the video?

Blue Ridge
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
She is not sad and she certainly has no problem looking at PICs of Caylee...Wow!

Nope! Only when the jury is there to perform for.

jon_burrows
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
OMG....tape was the murder weapon. ICA is totally mad

She gets furious when all her dirty little secrets are revealed.

Someone needs to tell ICA that a normal person cries when they see a child's skull, especially your own with duct tape all over her face.

IMO

Amanda
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
State should let it go, hate to have a aquittal because of this... but maybe i will proved wrong..

Mendara
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
I think the judge will not allow it. I think JB should shut it and just argue that it is gruesome and see where that goes.

MO

camcneishg
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
do we have a new word?? KEYDLY?? I haven't a clue to the spelling....LOL

LglNrs
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
~Just gotta say how HHJBP is one of the most impressive, knowledgeable and fair judges I have seen and heard in 15 years of court-watching...Love how he can site cases for reference from his own mental Westlaw-brain!~

PassTheMotrin
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
I cannot believe that she can sit there and look at that video with that GLARE on her face. Pure evil.

How convenient that the jury is absent.

EGirl
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
Why is he arguing the duct tape if he says Casey didn't put her in the woods??

truckengirl
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
So she can look at this video of Caylee's picture being put in with the skull picture without a tear, just wait until the jury is present. Surely the Judge will see through this crap.

loves2bmom
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
Not a lip reader but I think ICA said something like
"Can't believe it, this was supposed to be in private not in open court" ??

Beyond Belief
06-10-2011, 02:47 PM
Casey can testify about the duc tape.

rosepetal1065
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
dude...chloroform and duct tape since the thing started, remember the tests from trunk, hello ..ugh

ami
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
They're gonna ask Dr Warren.

Bobbarita
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Go HHJP!

Marina2
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Testimony will be proffered first.

sadyjade
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
JA sounded, looked a bit ocercome by emotion, as he explained the "why" of wanting to show this to the jury.

Seems were are beginning to crescendo here ...

Linda7NJ
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Jose wants a pass cause Caylee's FACE is gone...

momtective
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
what is he READING????

hahahaha

WS? :floorlaugh:

Whisperer
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Man she is mad!

I bet she's mad. She's really mad about Dr G calling her basically a murderer. Funny how she now has no problem looking at Caylee. I guess she only breaks down when she HEARS bad thing, looking isn't too much a problem. She's mad about an image. Well, We're mad about the image we have of her killing this precious child.

luckyme
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
calling him to stand. and please dont object.

GiantPickle
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
lol HHJP: This is a proffer so no objects mr Baez...let me hear what this man has to say

logicalgirl
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
HHJP: This is a proffer Mr. Baez so no need to make any objections.

shezcrafti
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
LOLOLOL!

HHJP: "This would be proffer, so there's no need to make any objections, Mr. Baez. It would go a lot quicker if you didn't so I could hear what this witness has to say."

BigFatMommyDog
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
JB facts WRONG - fourth piece 9 feet away

my2sense
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
The jury might resent having to see that ... it could backfire. I wouldn't let it in.

Chiquita71
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
JB: "an aid to the jury's understanding!" HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, let it in on that.

HHJP: says he wants to hear the testimony and then make a better formed decision. This is a proffer so I can hear what the man has to say. Mr. Baez.

dog.gone.cute
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
OMG ... JB needs to get into the 21ST CENTURY !! Aminated graphics are used all the time ... especially the ones showing the body and skeletons of body to PROVE MURDER !

JB needs to quit WHINING ... he is just mad because his client is TOAST !

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
This is a proffer so don't make any objections Mr. Baez.

tasylshari
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
The inmate seems furious after Dr. G's awesome testimony!!!!

Lip readers?????? What the heck was she spewing after Jan left??????

QueenD
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
proffer on Warren

no need to object Mr. Baez this is only a proffer and it will go quicker

ZsaZsa
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Really JB is beyond pathetic. Unfair, biased, prejudicial..blah blah no substantive argument.
Get Dr G back in there, she will set HHJP straight about the placement of duct tape!

miabellamoure
06-10-2011, 02:49 PM
i love it...JP just told JB to hold off on his objections so, this can go quicker!

MsFacetious
06-10-2011, 02:49 PM
Come on Judge... please...

I want to see her "break down" in court when it's shown with the jury...

After she sat there cold in court when it was shown without the jury...

Too bad they couldn't show the jury the video of what WE just watched though.


Hahaha... Judge says: "Mr Baez there is really no need for you to make any objections..."

ami
06-10-2011, 02:49 PM
I think HHJP is disgusted by the animation and probably the entire last two days. I'll be surprised if he lets it in - esp if it is a pic of KC and Caylee.

grandmaj
06-10-2011, 02:49 PM
Ok it appears there is a computer generated vid of how the tape may have been placed and how it slipped when the body decomposed.

Oldsoul2
06-10-2011, 02:49 PM
JB quotes WS and says "let's throw everything against the wall and see what sticks".

He can read? He can hardly speak proper english CUTTED...and we know he can't spell but he can definitely find one quote from here and repeat it (with help) Go home Jose, lick your wounds your web is untying and for the love of God, please make some remote sense, your giving everyone a headache!

stilettos
06-10-2011, 02:49 PM
from what I'm hearing about the time lapse photos, I don't think they should be allowed in....

I really wish they would be...but I am thinking it's gonna be a no from HHJP.

logicalgirl
06-10-2011, 02:49 PM
Dr. Warren - Human Identification - the SA has brought in the BIG GUNS!

Sleuth5
06-10-2011, 02:49 PM
I have to say that I think JB has a point this time.

Mendara
06-10-2011, 02:49 PM
I get they are using the exact measurements of the tape and the location where it was found and the actual face of Caylee to show as she decomposes that the tape remains over her mouth and nose.

They are using exact measurements.

Niner
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Dr. Warren

grammieto5
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
So what this is about is the DT is blaming someone else again?

strach304
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
I think HHJP is disgusted by the animation and probably the entire last two days. I'll be surprised if he lets it in - esp if it is a pic of KC and Caylee.

It's Caylee only.

NocturnalLady
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Is he schooling Baez again?

Yes but I hope he isn't giving JB hints for which case to cite to keep the tape out.

TimeWillTell
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
For anyone that had doubts yesterday about ICA's fakery please refer to "exhibit A" on your TV screens (i.e. ICA's monster face as she now views an image of her daughters skull).

Themis
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Why is he arguing the duct tape if he says Casey didn't put her in the woods??
Because you are intelligent enough to see that but ...

Just sayin'

Dr.Fessel
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Think about this.

If this is allowed in, will Casey watch it with the jury in the room or will she turn her head.

MsFacetious
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
The jury might resent having to see that ... it could backfire. I wouldn't let it in.

I would resent having to watch Casey if I was a juror.

I wouldn't let HER in.

Searchfortruth
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Had to step out, but why would the state need to show that one piece of tape could cover mouth and nose, when there were multiple pieces of duct tape used ? TIA for any clarification.

ami
06-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Wow, ICA HATES the mention of TAPE. She always flinches, sinks in her chair, moves around or looks away when someone says TAPE or DUCT tape.

Mountain_Kat
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
Okay, this evidence should be allowed. It's relevant.

I think HHJP will agree with me. ;)

LyndyLoo
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
Didnt CM open the door to this particular testimony video of superimposing skull to picture of caylee showing just where that duct tape would fit over Caylee's face?..CM attempted to ellicit from John Shutz that the tape DID not completely cover the nasal opening?? thus trying to paint the picture that this tape did not cause death or suffocate or even possibily...

I do think DT opened that door for this ..remember JA re-directed and mentioned this nasal opening was not her nose..as it was missing???

Hopefully JP will allow..and JB will be totally shot down!!:rocker:

Whisperer
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
Casey is going to implode...I expect a temper tantrum. Hope she got some ativan at lunch.

strawberry
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
Hmmm why isn't this talk about soft tissue and skull making her sick????? I'm sick, she wasn't my child, and I'm a nurse!

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
I'd like to point out that a previous member of the DT was an "accident reconstruction" specialist. He routinely used graphics to demonstrate scenarios argued.

So....."what's good for the goose......"

tehcloser
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
On the bright side, ICA seems to be feeling better...............

patriciah
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
I really wish they would be...but I am thinking it's gonna be a no from HHJP.

it sounds very prejudicial. I don't think they need it either. we'll see...

It's Not the Nanny
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
Man... why didn't we at WS think of making an animation like this???? We need to find a forensic anthropologist to join our team!

Mendara
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Lets keep in mind that KC saw the video already and DID NOT CRY instead she was mad. If it is allowed in front of the jury, will she cry and pretend she just saw it for the first time?

ami
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Think about this.

If this is allowed in, will Casey watch it with the jury in the room or will she turn her head.

She just watched it along with the attorneys and the Judge without flinching. SHe looked right at it and just scowled. No tears. No heaving. Nothing.

Rallihanna
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
I wish the jury could be told how she only reacts in front of them. Boy if they find her NG are they going to feel played. IMO

jojomonkey
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Had to step out, but why would the state need to show that one piece of tape could cover mouth and nose, when there were multiple pieces of duct tape used ? TIA for any clarification.

IMO - to show the person who placed it 100% intended on it causing death - more than one piece of tape = OVERKILL

Chiquita71
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
If JA and LDB want it shown.

I pray it comes in.

ETA: it is horrible. But it is what happened to Caylee.

:twocents:

Rebound
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Love, love love HHJP!! Rebound dances around the house at his allowing the proffer! Love it! God bless Caylee's protectors.

Kateyes
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Does anyone know the purpose of showing the video?

No, but it seems the video and the picture(with face OS smiling Caylee superimposed over the skull) are 2different things. Meant to add correct me, please, if I am wrong. Thanks.

FaerieB
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Hmmm why isn't this talk about soft tissue and skull making her sick????? I'm sick, she wasn't my child, and I'm a nurse!

Because the jury isn't present. :cow:

Sleuth5
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
You know, there's nothing wrong with making an educated approximation of where the tape was, but if the statute is requiring the evidence to be impossible to garner orally, it's hard to see how this can come in. He can testify to it, and make it clear, but JA will need to question carefully. It would be more powerful and certainly easier for the jury to understand visually, but there is an issue of prejudice vs. probative value that is reasonable to consider.

Amanda
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
well i dont know. since there seems to be science behind this video... maybe it wouldnt hurt..

azscr4mbl3r
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Don't they do these sorts of things ( before DNA) when they find a skull to ID it via known landmarks of the face and or teeth length of long bones etc anthro metric something or other sorry I can reaccl

costalpilot
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
On the bright side, ICA seems to be feeling better...............

apparently anger is her tonic

nursebeeme
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Think about this.

If this is allowed in, will Casey watch it with the jury in the room or will she turn her head.

what do you think, Doc? (((I know what I think)))

NocturnalLady
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
I seriously doubt HHJP will let this in.

Quiche
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Incredible work based on measurements, it's not speculation. imo

SleuthinCa
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
She just watched it along with the attorneys and the Judge without flinching. SHe looked right at it and just scowled. No tears. No heaving. Nothing.

She will most definitely turn her head and feign crying when the jury is in.

grammieto5
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Do we have any lips readers posting with us? if so, come tell us what casey a is saying pretty please?

Ill give you some of my fudge brownies:great:

OOOHHH I wish I could read lips! I LOVE fudge brownies!!!!

ZsaZsa
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Had to step out, but why would the state need to show that one piece of tape could cover mouth and nose, when there were multiple pieces of duct tape used ? TIA for any clarification.

There were three used, but they are stating that it actually would only take one to kill a toddler of her size...

Sleuth5
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
I'd like to point out that a previous member of the DT was an "accident reconstruction" specialist. He routinely used graphics to demonstrate scenarios argued.

So....."what's good for the goose......"

Aha. Good point.

illinoismom
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Casey is going to implode...I expect a temper tantrum.

Too bad the jury didnt see her angry face. Its quite scary the anger she has inside! WOW!!


Hmmm why isn't this talk about soft tissue and skull making her sick????? I'm sick, she wasn't my child, and I'm a nurse!

I wondered the same thing....because the jury isnt present maybe. Let see if she gets sick when they return...

2goldfish
06-10-2011, 02:53 PM
I cannot believe this tape was so disturbing that even JB's voice cracked and he called it disgusting yet ICA just sat there and watched it.....I cant believe the change in her "emotion" when there is NO JURY PRESENT

raysgirl1126
06-10-2011, 02:54 PM
This should be good

Tiki
06-10-2011, 02:54 PM
I think HHJP is disgusted by the animation and probably the entire last two days. I'll be surprised if he lets it in - esp if it is a pic of KC and Caylee.

maybe so -

We are all disgusted by what ICA did to Caylee.
HHBP will go by the case he's reading even if he finds it sickening -
JMO

if they show it on the feed, I won't watch it

Fluffy Puppy
06-10-2011, 02:54 PM
I just can't see him letting this in. If it were a 'generic' skull rendering, perhaps, but morphing her face into a skull to prove the size was right? Yikes and ouch.

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 02:54 PM
This witness can answer!!!

shezcrafti
06-10-2011, 02:54 PM
I wish the jury could be told how she only reacts in front of them. Boy if they find her NG are they going to feel played. IMO

Bite your tongue!

ExpectingUnicorns
06-10-2011, 02:54 PM
She just watched it along with the attorneys and the Judge without flinching. SHe looked right at it and just scowled. No tears. No heaving. Nothing.

If this is allowed, do you think her reaction will be different in front of the jury?

1tasha
06-10-2011, 02:54 PM
OMG ... JB needs to get into the 21ST CENTURY !! Aminated graphics are used all the time ... especially the ones showing the body and skeletons of body to PROVE MURDER !

JB needs to quit WHINING ... he is just mad because his client is TOAST !

He's unfamiliar with cutted edge technology

Themis
06-10-2011, 02:55 PM
i love it...JP just told JB to hold off on his objections so, this can go quicker!
Oh my! That had to be embarassing.

bonjoviblonde
06-10-2011, 02:55 PM
She just saw a graphic video of Caylees actual face and a skull and duct tape superimposed over top of it and she didn't blink an eye. Didn't cry, didn't look sick. Nothing but anger. If this is allowed in court and the jury comes in, she will have the biggest fake break down we've ever seen!!!!!

costalpilot
06-10-2011, 02:55 PM
Okay, this evidence should be allowed. It's relevant.

I think HHJP will agree with me. ;)

not the videeo

imo

it should be

but wont be

hope im wrong

grandmaj
06-10-2011, 02:55 PM
Baez there is no jury get to the point.

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 02:55 PM
JB's fighting mad and going to slip!!!!!

SevenSeas
06-10-2011, 02:55 PM
Why is JB asking about the tape when he's already stated "she drowned on July 16, 2008" :fence:

CN2Souls
06-10-2011, 02:55 PM
I think ICA is Allergic to the Jury...

Everytime their in the court room she gets sick....:waitasec:



:floorlaugh:

NocturnalLady
06-10-2011, 02:56 PM
HHJP tells JB that he doesn't want to hear his whole cross.

JA tries to object to testimony about the hair mat.

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 02:56 PM
HAHA let's get to the point.

azwriter
06-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Lets keep in mind that KC saw the video already and DID NOT CRY instead she was mad. If it is allowed in front of the jury, will she cry and pretend she just saw it for the first time?

And that is exactly why I WANT his honor to pass this along to the jury. The Casey performance will be amazing!

Come on Judge give us this.
jmo

alwaysonmymind
06-10-2011, 02:56 PM
JA sounded, looked a bit ocercome by emotion, as he explained the "why" of wanting to show this to the jury.

Seems were are beginning to crescendo here ...

I imagine he is exhausted mentally....... God knows I am..... every time Baez and Mason speak. jmo

Prayers for the State to stay strong and focused for CAYLEE!

reeseeva
06-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Wonder if Baez will say "Caylee" with the jury there?????

TiaM
06-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Man... why didn't we at WS think of making an animation like this???? We need to find a forensic anthropologist to join our team!

And a chemist! :innocent:

Wholehearted
06-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Wow, JB is really worked up. He must really be scared of this coming in.

azscr4mbl3r
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
JB is doing the proffer? correct me if I am wrong but he has done nothing but help the SA thus far. yep that's what he is doing.. Amazing they can be winning WITH JB helping them even. The SA wins despite help from JB...

Mendara
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
JB making some good points. MO

BigFatMommyDog
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
um, i have hair on the back of my skull...

gibby207
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
ICA looks like he wants to correct the doctor's work. "It wasn't positioned like THAT, JEEZ. It was more like this!!"

Donjeta
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
OK so what is the point of this questioning? They want to know if it's possible that it covered Caylee's airways.

I thought the DT is saying that the duct tape possibly has been moved and disturbed and is not in its original position.

Ergo, regardless of its position now it's possible that it used to cover her airways.

luckyme
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
She just saw a graphic video of Caylees actual face and a skull and duct tape superimposed over top of it and she didn't blink an eye. Didn't cry, didn't look sick. Nothing but anger. If this is allowed in court and the jury comes in, she will have the biggest fake break down we've ever seen!!!!!

And all of us viewing and the media will see it, except for the jury.:innocent:

rosepetal1065
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
Jb is being nasty..in tone and seeks to belittle people.

greycoupon
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
So the video is the time lapse with the skull? Gotta say, I don't think they should let it in. That's disturbing and the jury has seen plenty of photos of the remains in the last two days. I missed Dr G but it sounds like she cleaned the floor with CM. SA needs to not pull a Baez. Quit while they are ahead....very fair ahead.

Witness said they didn't know how old Caylee was in the picture.

ami
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
If this is allowed, do you think her reaction will be different in front of the jury?

Heck yeah. JB will dramatically turn the mac computer screen away from her, she'll sink into ICA-The-Thinker pose and possibly jerk around as if heaving or crying.

NocturnalLady
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
JB trying to prove that the photo used was not representative of Caylee's size at the time of her death.

Mountain_Kat
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
JB, give it up.

watchinginky
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
It's funny that KC has NO tears while they're talking about the hair mat, etc. now. Oh yeah....the jury's not in there.

JSR
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
Think about this.

If this is allowed in, will Casey watch it with the jury in the room or will she turn her head.

I'd bet large sums of money that she'll turn her head and pretend to sob.

ZsaZsa
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
They could use the photographs taken with Grandpa on her last known day alive.
Welcome to the world of digital imaging HHJP..

ami
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
HHJP is SO on the fence about this. I totally understand that. I am, too.

camcneishg
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
ICA's words when Dr. G left were : "thats Bu77 *****, thats what this is!!"

NocturnalLady
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
I'm not sure that this witness is doing a good job of explaining why his work has scientific value....

SyraKelly
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
Wow, JB is really worked up. He must really be scared of this coming in.

that and the fact he knows DR.G's testimony just put his client away for good!!

adb263
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
Keep in mind I am all for ICA frying! But this tape is not needed. The jurors already have a picture of what happened to Caylee. The tape could be too prejudicial to the Defense. JMO

wandering
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
Please point me to those pics. Post number?

I flashed on that very thought when I saw a certain pic of KC yesterday.Never mind, I found it. Post # 110. Thank you, that's exactly the pic I was thinking of. OMG.

2goldfish
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
Wow, JB is really worked up. He must really be scared of this coming in.


well in his defense, like all other evidence it makes his client look EXTREMELY GUILTY.

MissDiva
06-10-2011, 02:58 PM
I just discovered that a single piece of duct tape can cover both my mouth and nose, and I'm an adult.

HRCODEPINK
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
If this is allowed, do you think her reaction will be different in front of the jury?

Absolutely! :crazy: Gotta keep up the show! Life of a celebrity and all....

raysgirl1126
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
JB making some good points. MO

I agree

nursebeeme
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
it is science!

azwriter
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
What do you want to bet Nancy Grace's mouth is watering at this.

Look out! here comes her BOMBSHELL TONIGHT.
jmo

sandiegomermaid
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
I've nodded off a few times...getting up at 6am (west coast time) is catching up to me

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
When HHJP asks questions himself.....he is covering his posterior because he is going to allow evidence.

We'll know shortly.

ZsaZsa
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
JB trying to prove that the photo used was not representative of Caylee's size at the time of her death.

What's he gonna claim, that her nose and mouth outgrew THREE pieces of duct tape between when that photo was taken and her murder?

wandering
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
Keep in mind I am all for ICA frying! But this tape is not needed. The jurors already have a picture of what happened to Caylee. The tape could be too prejudicial to the Defense. JMOI don't think so. It's an illustration of the SA's case.

LglNrs
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
Please point me to those pics. Post number?

I flashed on that very thought when I saw a certain pic of KC yesterday.

In the "sig" of Dragonlady (grt job!) post #921

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 03:00 PM
Key...Will this animation aid you in explaining your testimony to the jury?


BAM

ami
06-10-2011, 03:00 PM
Oh man. I think HHJP is considering it.

I wish they wouldn't let it in.

I hope they just make him testify without animation.

amayla
06-10-2011, 03:00 PM
I hope the judge lets the animation in. The defense had made points about the duct tape not being on the left part of the skull.

sarah1215
06-10-2011, 03:00 PM
I can't stand when JB smirks

rosepetal1065
06-10-2011, 03:00 PM
ICA should be ashamed of her performances in court, the jig is up..and the DT, SA and the HHJP know she's acting..it's so obvious after showing that video

reeseeva
06-10-2011, 03:00 PM
This is not new Science!

thumbtack
06-10-2011, 03:00 PM
Anybody else saying: Please, please , please, JP let it in!?

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 03:00 PM
HHJP will say that as the trier of facts the jury needs to understand the process used.

NocturnalLady
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
HHJP asking the witness if he can testify to his work without the video. I don't think the witness is proving he needs the video very well. Seems like he just thinks it would be helpful rather than needed.

2door73chevy
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
I don't think the video should be seen by the jury...This is the ONLY time I've agreed with JB.

HRCODEPINK
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
It's funny that KC has NO tears while they're talking about the hair mat, etc. now. Oh yeah....the jury's not in there.

If she does keep up the show after the jury gets back, I am sure that it will not be lost of HHJP that she is fine one minute and "sick" the next. It may backfire on her if she is planning on taking any more days off.

mikeysmommom
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
Please let this in!!!IMO the anger ICA is showing is because the duct tape is indeed the murder weapon!!!!

Beyond Belief
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
Let it in!!!!!!!

RSDhoping for a cure
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
I cannot believe this tape was so disturbing that even JB's voice cracked and he called it disgusting yet ICA just sat there and watched it.....I cant believe the change in her "emotion" when there is NO JURY PRESENT

BBM

I think it's exactly how ICA has alwas been. All of her friends thought she was a good mother...ICA knew how to put on a show for an audience. I bet when they weren't around she was hateful to little Caylee.

wenwe4
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
You need to review McDuffy vs State 2007 decision case 26 pages long ....need to reread it....

JB - 403 ever created for scenario - it's this.....unfair prejudice , influence jury, there has been no testimony....this duct tape was in fact was as in the video....cite pierce vs. STate 4th case ...97 case ....clearly shows presentation relevant and fair accurate reflect oral testimony....no testimony this duct tape on this child face in this postion....Dr. Warren can't testify...there were 3 pieces - one found 4 feet away..


HHBP - let me hear the witness...profer - no objections - hear what man has to say

Michael Warren - forensic anthropoligist - assoc. prof anthropolgy @ U of Fl.....C. A .POund human identification...lab....

involved with DR. Schultz in prepare report in this case...examine skull and other bones in this case.....issue of the duct tape...establish weapon cause death....how video superposition created....taking photos of decedent skull.....photo of the duct tape and picture off internet...same scale.....photo scales are in there ...size of each images ...face has no scale...first match face to skull then match and aligned and use scale and tape to superimpose the soft tissue....use skull for 1:1 with tape on face....possible without superimpostion to determine Caylee nose? .....research data out there anthropometry in living children ....some measurements ...not measures needed from landmarks in question....any other way to demonstrate duct tape cover nose and mouth other than this process? not....that is populational data apply to single person - better elegant do measurements on the individual....


JB - discuss duct tape being the murder weapon w/JA? discussion with Dr. G....don't remember JA asking murder weapon of duct tape but ask if possible could cover both airways - early on......didn't meet JA until later on.....Dr. Warren suggested this to Mr. JA ....not present when duct tape removed from skull...never saw other than a photo....photo with duct tape attached to hair mat....hair mat underneath skull...object- thought we were not going to have objections...tying it all together.

nestled at base of skull....normally hair usually on top....decomposed hair slumps....talking about live person.....how large child is? no - need landmarks of face ...children grow rapidly.....much older or larger in that photo ...at time of death vs. photo....photo looked fairly recently....not an infant photo.....

Dr. what is purpose of demonstration? HHBP =- show it is possible that tape could cover nose and mouth.....skull utilized necessity...frontal view of scale with photographic scale and tape taken by FBI use skull and tape overlaying image 50% opacity take the two and make same size - sizes are real and match....no scaling of photo but use scale of scale and the landmarks....move from scale and skull and scale of the tape....once scaled to skull can superimpose with image with soft tissue......the actual skull received from medical examiner office....animation will aid his explanation....it is illustrative it is possible....without the video animation can testify....disadavantage takes illustration of the science trust that he is familiar with the data....1.75 cm and anthropologic scale .....based upon photo and skull...close in time not significant growth between skull and picture....

no further questions...witness stand down...

wandering
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
What do you want to bet Nancy Grace's mouth is watering at this.

Look out! here comes her BOMBSHELL TONIGHT.
jmoI don't find her comments exciting at all. Milk toast mild on this case. Yawn.

Marina2
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
The question seems to be whether it will aid the expert in helping the jury to understand his testimony or whether it's just prejudicial.

Ssejors
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
I WANT TO SEE THIS IMAGE RENDERING!!

I think its important that the jury see it

Bittiness39
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
The way that the duct tape was photographed...it looks like a death mask...I just...it is too difficult for me to process this emotionally. It just...this is beyond frightening and sad. Coupled with that...you have ICA "acting" sad where she could not manufacture emotion during the 31 days. I just...wish I could have adopted that child. I know that my ramblings border on off topic. But this is a video showing the super-imposition of how the State believes the duct tape was place. Why should the Defense even care? They have already told the jury that GA gave Caylee's remains to Kronk? Why are they fighting this? They have already told the court that ICA has no clue what happened to Caylee after she "drowned".

azscr4mbl3r
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
Jose throw in the towel already.

Amanda
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
Well if it's in, we wont get to see it..

Mountain_Kat
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
I think HHJP is going to allow this.

Broderick
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
I got a feeling it will not be allowed.

sleutherontheside
06-10-2011, 03:02 PM
1997 decision by the 4th DCA

shezcrafti
06-10-2011, 03:02 PM
15 minute recess while HHJP reviews the case JB referred him to.

Marina2
06-10-2011, 03:02 PM
Recess til 3:15 so HHJP can "digest" the cases.

ami
06-10-2011, 03:02 PM
Waiting......waiting....

.
.
.
.
.
.
JB: was handed his objection (pest control?! what the...) because he doesn't know how to look them up himeslf
HHJP says: waitill 315.

NocturnalLady
06-10-2011, 03:02 PM
This is good science but I just don't think the witness did a good job of presenting it. So in that since I do think this particular witness probably does need the video to help his testimony!

Mendara
06-10-2011, 03:02 PM
Recess for 15 minutes. KC feeling confident. MO

costalpilot
06-10-2011, 03:03 PM
When HHJP asks questions himself.....he is covering his posterior becasue he is going to allow evidence.

We'll know shortly.

disagree

they are relevant questions that specifically address JB's concerns

the video isn't coming in

imo

the testimony is

Leila
06-10-2011, 03:03 PM
Anybody else saying: Please, please , please, JP let it in!?

I hope HHBP lets this video in!

MsFacetious
06-10-2011, 03:03 PM
This is making me sick.

Casey is just sitting there.

But she gets hysterical when the jury is in there.

She makes me physically ill.

Wholehearted
06-10-2011, 03:03 PM
I WANT TO SEE THIS IMAGE RENDERING!!

I think its important that the jury see it

I gotta say, I think it's probably important that the jury sees it, but I don't think I can look at it.

stilettos
06-10-2011, 03:03 PM
guys I just do not know about this evidence...it is prejudicial....I mean wow...sigh..i hope if it gets in it doesn't get overturned on appeal.

Tulessa
06-10-2011, 03:03 PM
Posting again for the links. I can't watch this any more. I am so sorry guys. :(

Mountain_Kat
06-10-2011, 03:03 PM
Jose throw in the towel already.

No. But the essential thing is that the jury can see it.

I can sort of see it in my mind as a reference point while listening to testimony. And I think I can follow the testimony with that mental picture.

At least, I hope so anyway. If it even gets in, that is.

rosepetal1065
06-10-2011, 03:03 PM
BBM

I think it's exactly how ICA has alwas been. All of her friends thought she was a good mother...ICA knew how to put on a show for an audience. I bet when they weren't around she was hateful to little Caylee.

That's what I think too, and that night, they had the big fight and she left with Caylee, I bet she cried out for CA and it made ICA beyond mad.

Whisperer
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Unfreakenbelivable that the DVD with a live Caylee didn't emote any sadness from ICA....

kyrasmummy
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
I'm finding all this hard to take in, what poor Caylee suffered. Its just not fair.

Quiche
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Do we know if he used the nursing home pictures?

ZsaZsa
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Radiologists, Neuroradiologists take similar CT and MRI images to make minute measurements using this kind of technology every day to look at brain tumors from a 3D perspective...

lishac23
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
I don't think the video will be admitted, however I think the judge will allow Dr. Warren's testimony to the fact that based on his measurements the tape did in fact cover her nose and mouth

patriciah
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
anyone have a picture of her watching that video/time lapse? she looked scary mad to me

MEM2010
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
I am praying the judge allows in this video evidence to really let it hit home to the jury.

DesSands
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
She didn't get sick either.

IMO

This is a miracle, you have witnessed a miracle right in front of your very eyes. :woohoo:

reeseeva
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Dr. G. made a comment about the duct tape and it's position, Does anyone remember her exact words?

nursebeeme
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Well if it's in, we wont get to see it..

I personally do NOT want to ever ever ever see it... but I want the jury to!:twocents:

ami
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
She is a completely psychotic creature. No more sickness. Just ... anger. What a chilling murderer.

Like Ed Norton in that movie with Richard Gere... the split personality dude.

whiteangora
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Keep in mind I am all for ICA frying! But this tape is not needed. The jurors already have a picture of what happened to Caylee. The tape could be too prejudicial to the Defense. JMO

I trust any decision Judge Perry makes, he's the boss and he knows best.

Pink Panther
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
I gotta say, I think it's probably important that the jury sees it, but I don't think I can look at it.
KC didn't seem to find it bothersome enough for her to cry despite her daughter's picture being used to generate it.

moo

Boots-OK
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
I'm okay with whatever His Honor decides. IMO - State does not need this demonstration and they do run a risk of "over-trying" their case. moo

Whisperer
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
Caylee loved her jojo and nana...and ICA hated it..

wenwe4
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
My personal opinion is this is going to sink her boat if the animated video is allowed in...is this brand new type of evidence being allowed in court or has it been done before in FL?

greycoupon
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
Why do they need this? Just giving Casey grounds for her appeal. The jury has seen plenty of photos of the remains. They know what Caylee looked like alive. This just seems pushing it to shock rather then to aid in any scientific explanation.

Baez was actually making sense for once but he stayed true to his usual hypocrisy.

QueenD
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
HLN defense attorney Holly thinks it's coming in

Broderick
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
This is making me sick.

Casey is just sitting there.

But she gets hysterical when the jury is in there.

She makes me physically ill.

Good to me. Let the judge consider all that when sentencing time rolls around....

adb263
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
guys I just do not know about this evidence...it is prejudicial....I mean wow...sigh..i hope if it gets in it doesn't get overturned on appeal.

That is my worry!!! But even if she has to be re-tried it won't matter!!

wandering
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
JB - discuss duct tape being the murder weapon w/JA? discussion with Dr. G....don't remember JA asking murder weapon of duct tape but ask if possible could cover both airways - early on......didn't meet JA until later on.....Dr. Warren suggested this to Mr. JA ....not present when duct tape removed from skull...never saw other than a photo....photo with duct tape attached to hair mat....hair mat underneath skull...object- thought we were not going to have objections...tying it all together.

nestled at base of skull....normally hair usually on top....decomposed hair slumps....talking about live person.....how large child is? no - need landmarks of face ...children grow rapidly.....much older or larger in that photo ...at time of death vs. photo....photo looked fairly recently....not an infant photo.....

Dr. what is purpose of demonstration? HHBP =- show it is possible that tape could cover nose and mouth.....skull utilized necessity...frontal view of scale with photographic scale and tape taken by FBI use skull and tape overlaying image 50% opacity take the two and make same size - sizes are real and match....no scaling of photo but use scale of scale and the landmarks....move from scale and skull and scale of the tape....once scaled to skull can superimpose with image with soft tissue......the actual skull received from medical examiner office....animation will aid his explanation....it is illustrative it is possible....without the video animation can testify....disadavantage takes illustration of the science trust that he is familiar with the data....1.75 cm and anthropologic scale .....based upon photo and skull...close in time not significant growth between skull and picture....

no further questions...witness stand down...


Good grief! Are they trying to say the duct tape wasn't over her mouth and nose? Where would it have been? This is ridiculous.

ZsaZsa
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
This is good science but I just don't think the witness did a good job of presenting it. So in that since I do think this particular witness probably does need the video to help his testimony!

I wish they had a Neurosurgeon or Facial reconstructive Surgeon there to explain the findings. That would work much better....

Pink Panther
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
If the judge decides it's better for it not to be used, I'm all for it as I would hate for it to be cause for appeal.

moo

azscr4mbl3r
06-10-2011, 03:06 PM
so ask someone that was in or took the picture how old she was when the picture was taken if that is JB's objection. Just ask some one. like CA GA LA TL etc etc

MsFacetious
06-10-2011, 03:06 PM
Anybody else saying: Please, please , please, JP let it in!?

Yes.

Though I think the video of Casey WATCHING the video in question should be entered into evidence... even if the video itself isn't.

Just say to the jury "This is video of the defendant looking at her daughter's skull. The same skull which made her sick and hysterical in your presence. This is how she reacted outside your presence."

Wouldn't even need to show the video itself. Oh I wish that was allowed. :banghead:

GiantPickle
06-10-2011, 03:06 PM
Waiting......waiting....

.
.
.
.
.
.
JB: was handed his objection (pest control?! what the...) because he doesn't know how to look them up himeslf
HHJP says: waitill 315.

in fairness to him - thats the whole purpose of having a legal team (paralegal etc)...he should just be focusing on whats going on in the courtroom and others doing the research/printing etc.

mydailyopinions
06-10-2011, 03:06 PM
If the defense so strongly suggests that that Caylee died by accidental drowning, and can say that George is the one who deposed of Caylee's body, then why the heck are they so afraid of this coming in? Hell, they are going to pin the actual crime of getting rid of a body on George anyways, can't they just say that he put the tape on Caylee?
Fighting this only shows that they know Casey killed this baby.

Let it in, it's for the jury to decide what evidence they weigh!

EGirl
06-10-2011, 03:06 PM
You know, there's nothing wrong with making an educated approximation of where the tape was, but if the statute is requiring the evidence to be impossible to garner orally, it's hard to see how this can come in. He can testify to it, and make it clear, but JA will need to question carefully. It would be more powerful and certainly easier for the jury to understand visually, but there is an issue of prejudice vs. probative value that is reasonable to consider.

Didn't Mason open the door for this by asking if the tape was all across the nose?

Dragonlady
06-10-2011, 03:06 PM
I think that JP will let it in and advise the jury that the cd is only being shown as to how the duct tape could cover Caylees mouth and nose.

Rallihanna
06-10-2011, 03:06 PM
IMO- I hope this image stays in her mind for the rest of her life.

ami
06-10-2011, 03:07 PM
I honestly believe the duct tape was either the cause of death or just very important and sensitive to ICA - the moment she put the duct tape on - because she flinches every single time the tape is mentioned or discussed. And she looked PIZZED to the point of being enraged at the animation.

ZsaZsa
06-10-2011, 03:07 PM
Dr. G. made a comment about the duct tape and it's position, Does anyone remember her exact words?

In her post-mortem report, or do you mean today?