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View Full Version : 2011.07.01 TRIAL Day Thirty-three (Afternoon Session)


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pipkins
07-01-2011, 03:01 PM
KBelichWFTV: Defense expert Dr. Werner Spitz accused medical examiner of failing to test the sediment in skull.. And failing to cut it open.. [via Twitter]

Dr.Fessel
07-01-2011, 03:01 PM
I think he will talk about test not done on the femur bone now.

jharres
07-01-2011, 03:01 PM
Are they not going to call Cindy back to call her on her lies?

They don't need to. It's plain as day.

Sleuth5
07-01-2011, 03:01 PM
Now we will see if JB knows what to do when the door is opened and he is in the room.

Yes, but will he be able to find his way out?

gitana1
07-01-2011, 03:01 PM
CA had no choice, she had already told the lie in 2008 2009 in transcribed interviews and depos. Not making excuses for her, just saying. Thinking Lippman could have tried to use that limited immunity before she got on the stand to save lying under oath, fix the mess first?

I know I'm behind but CA's testimony at trial was quite a bit different, more detailed and more exculpatory for casey than at depo.

My own feelings about Cindy have been ever-changing. I have felt something close to hatred, anger, sympathy and then now I have settled on pity.

She is a broken person who will be haunted by what she tried to pull. While I am glad her lies have helped accentuate her daughters premeditation.

She is pitiful and I do have pity.

I agree. I have been infuriated with her. She has driven me crazy with her flat out lies and ludicrous statements. But she is a disturbed individual in an untenable situation. People state: "Oh, I'd throw my kid to the wolves if they did that." But it's easy to say from behind a computer screen. No one can really say what it would feel like and how they would react with 100% certainty. Add dysfunction to the whole scenario and it's even worse.

She loved both Caylee and casey. She held, rocked, fed and soothed both children. I cannot imagine what it would be like.

Would i lie to save my child from death? Even if they were guilty? I think that my brain would make it hard to believe my child was guilty, even with proof. But, would I lie?

I have thought about horrible situations like this before. Usually, I have wondered what I would do if one my brothers was a child molester.

I come from a very, very tight family. My family is my entire life. Without them, I am dead. I am also very loyal to my family. You don't air dirty laundry and you don't turn family in.

So, my solution has always been that if I thought one of my brothers hurt a child, I would take them out myself.

If I was in this situation, I think I would have killed casey in her sleep when she was out on bail, and then myself. Truly, that's what I think I would have done.

Kind of like the mom in the Bad Seed. I understood that.

cityslick
07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
Unconditional love would mean making sure my child (if he committed such a horrible act) Would pay for HIS actions and making sure the victim received justice.

I'm sorry, but my idea of paying for their actions doesn't mean put the needle in them. LWOP yes. But not death. I cannot have my child put to death, I don't care what they did.

I am not saying it's ok to lie on the stand BTW.

allycat1208
07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
Why was this guy questioned for such a short time by the State?

Shadow5618
07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
No, Jose, chemicals don't have DNA in them!

newsjunkie
07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
Why is there NO reaction from ICA when they are talking about her babys SKULL and decomp??????? She looks at the screen as if they are talking about new shoes. My face and eyeballs would be swollen, my nose dripping and red from crying hysterically

Cause you didn't murder your precious baby!

BritsKate
07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
So sorry! I confused my docs earlier...Dr. Goldberger is the toxicologist and Warren is the anthropologist. I thought it was just the opposite.

ami
07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
DNA on the BRAIN? Are you kidding? Is JB trying to say that skull wasn't Caylee?

Camille
07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
He's not chemist either.

artbuc
07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
Everyone, I think** Artbuc was being sarcastic and had donned the voice of CA in rebuttal ??/ Maybe they will come back and clarify, but that is how I took it.. :)

Yep. A little sarcasm.

ZsaZsa
07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
Whatever happened to the word 'unconditional'?

No one is stating that you should stop loving someone because of their faults, but covering up for murder does not fit the definition of love.
What happened to CA's love for Caylee? brushed aside in the quest to protect her murderer and herself.

BigFatMommyDog
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
No Sustained

Quiche
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
Sustained, Jose, no you may not approach.

tragco
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
This trial is never going to end, is it? He is not a chemist! He is not a DNA analyst! Be quiet Mr. Baez.

shezcrafti
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
HHJP shutting JB down.

Tulessa
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
You think she's trying to get ICA off?

I respectfully disagree.

Absolutely.

ETA, did you not read CA's letter to ICA? Once she is free this spring they are going to look for Caylee together. :innocent:

PeteyGirl
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
Right, so how can you put yourself in CA's shoes and know exactly how you would be? I'm not condoning her lying, but I see it differently. She's trying to remove the 'premed' part of it (ie-remove the DP part of it).

I don't think she thinks ICA is innocent.

This is a good point, and I believe this is what CA is doing as well. I know in her shoes I'd do whatever in my power to prevent my daughter from the death penalty.

CA is just impulsive and narcissistic and chose badly her time to do this. Big shockeroo that she lied. The only honest thing she's done is publically grieve the moments she realized her baby granddaughter was missing and blurt to the 911 operator that she smelled a dead body in the damn car.

She's artless and dishonest, but I understand her without condoning or agreeing with her methods.

She could have saved all this BS and made a highly impactful, poignant statement during the sentence mitigation portion of the trial. Now she can't even do that effectively :(

hannahsnana
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
Whatever happened to the word 'unconditional'?

In my belief, concern about the eternal soul of my children is more important than lying for them in this life. Admit guilt, express remorse, promise never to do again. That's what forgiveness is all about. That's what I would want for my children.

ljwf22
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
May I approach? No.

Loved it! :great:

momtective
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
God bless the court reporter if she can spell all of the huge medical terms.

mombomb
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
DIRECT EXAMINATION OF BRUCE GOLDBERGER BY JA

He is professor and director of toxicology at University of Florida.

BA in zoology and MS and phD in forensic toxicology. The majority of his work is medical-legal.

He tests bodily fluids for the presence of volatile substances.

He was contacted by Dr. G in 2008 in reference to Caylee's remains. He came to Orlando and took samples which included a small piece of the left femur, some marrow of the left femur, they prepared two saline washes from the cranial cavity, hair samples, hair mat samples...

OBJECTION

SIDEBAR - 2:54-2:55

strands of hair, some matted hair and soil from the matted hair.

The cranial washes - in the autopsy room, they sealed the sutures of the cranium with a waxy material then added 30 ml of saline to the cranium then they poured the saline into tubes. They did this twice.

After analysis - they did not find that any of the residue was decomposition product.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY JB

Did you say you collected something from the femur?

OBJECTION

Yes.

SIDEBAR (2:58-3:00)

He collected bone marrow.

When he did the saline wash, was it a crude type method? It is a technique he has used a number of times. It's crude, but it is what it is. It is the best way he could do it without opening the skull.

Products of decomp - a number of chemicals. They were not tested for DNA. The chemicals they look for don't have DNA - low molecular weight compounds.

He is not a DNA analyst. He did not send the samples for DNA?

OBJECTION - SUSTAINED

He returned the samples to the ME in Orlando.

Witness excused.

luv
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
http://i53.tinypic.com/2wfpqno.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/2ldvzbs.jpg

tehcloser
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
You think she's trying to get ICA off?

I respectfully disagree.

She has been trying to get ICA "off" since day 31.

Bainbridge
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
poor guy! fell off the witness stand in front of the whole freaking world...awww!

rosepetal1065
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
hehe...getting a little tired of JB no?

jmfstl
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
State now re calls Dr Michael Warren

rose222
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
It doesn't look good for the defense when Baez is sustained over and over again. Some people don't learn that silence is golden!

wenwe4
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
JB w/Goldberger - collected saline wash....done numerous times...crude but it is what it is...best way I could without damaging structure of the cranium without opening the items....chemicals look for don't have dna....low molecular weight compounds....different than dna...didn't send for any further dna testing...object sustained..

JB - may I approach NO

send them further testing? no left that for ME office in Orlando....

witness excused

Leah0107
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
ICA doesn't look happy at all!

pinkfly
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
You think she's trying to get ICA off?

I respectfully disagree.


No my comment really didnít say anything like that

I think someone can still have unconditional love for a daughter and not do anything illegal about it


NO IDEA WHERE YOU CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION FROM A COMMENT ABOUT THE MEANING OF LOVE

Ninsi
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
That was classic, " Judge: "Sustained." Baez: "May I approach, I think I need to clarify this issue..." Judge: Sustained!!!

monique
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
Awwwwww....poor wittle KC looks so sad.

Bon
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
really wonder what ICA thinks at this point....does she still expect to walk out arm in arm with CM or is she expecting the mistrial/retrial that JB told her would happen?

Does she see what we see?


I would give anything to know what ICA is really thinking right about now...she's looking pretty pale to me...

faefrost
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
Sooo... what was the deal with the bone marrow? He started a line of questioning and then wandered away? did he lose cell signal or something and have to wing it on his own?

grepNYC
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
JB is not crossing on the SA questions .... What is going on here?????

Defeat.

Darla
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
State kicking a$$ today. :woohoo:

Nali87
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
Unconditional love doesn't mean you have to get a murdering child acquitted. It means you love them during the trial, you love them when they're convicted. If that what's the case a lot of murderers would have girlfriends, boyfriends, parents, siblings lying to get them out of jail, even knowing that they deserve to be punished for their crimes.

greycoupon
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
I'm disappointed since he was not a DNA expert that JB didn't point out he's also not a chemist.

newsjunkie
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
No one is stating that you should stop loving someone because of their faults, but covering up for murder does not fit the definition of love.
What happened to CA's love for Caylee? brushed aside in the quest to protect her murderer and herself.

Exactly. . .unconditional love for Caylee should be a huge if not the ONLY factor in CA's decision to lie or tell the truth!

artbuc
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
JB came close to a homerun. He will get it on surrebuttal. Saline wash is not a good technique but he had to do it because he didn't open skull. Supports Dr. Spitz' assertion that autopsy was shoddy.

kant
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
omg you kill me... in the good way.

I needed a small laugh to relieve my huge tension.


and PS

FWIW you remind me of another dear Deb I once knew.... here... or somewhere... I'll claim brain freeze

Maybe it's all in the name *wink wink*

hugs

love


quoting my own post; how lame is that.

Just You Deb :-) does Finger 11 Paralyzer mean anything to you?

(just a song folks; dont overly infer) :)

Ok, I agree with your last several posts on Cindy et al. Dont make me do the, "Im not worthy" bow.

But... Wordy McWord, woman. (which translation = "I agree" ....for the zeitgeist impaired)

and yikes.

moo

DianaElaine
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
ICA giving JB a very angry look

cloud9
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
ICA sure is looking pizzed!!!

JBounds
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
RichardHornsby Richard Hornsby
Old Defense Trick: When you have nothing, be sure to point out that evidence was not tested for DNA, regardless of whether even relevant!

momtective
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
DNA on the BRAIN? Are you kidding? Is JB trying to say that skull wasn't Caylee?

Exactly...there was no brain. :doh:

ami
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
I guess State is going to wait for Defense to call CA again on sur rebuttal and re-question her again then about the searches?

Dr.Fessel
07-01-2011, 03:04 PM
Raise your hand if you said Oh Chit out loud.

gitana1
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
I'm sorry, but my idea of paying for their actions doesn't mean put the needle in them. LWOP yes. But not death. I cannot have my child put to death, I don't care what they did.

I am not saying it's ok to lie on the stand BTW.

Agreed. I think if i didn't kill myself and my child first, and was put on the stand, I would go to jail before speaking. I would just say: 'I can't testify against my child. Please understand."

strach304
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
Anyone? I don't understand what this "residue" business is about?

That the sediment Dr. Spitz testified about being brain dust was not.

grepNYC
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
I would give anything to know what ICA is really thinking right about now...

She is thinking that she is done-for .

Shadow5618
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
They don't need to. It's plain as day.

Yes, but it won't be nearly as much fun. I wanted to see her try to explain her way out of it. :great:

Kat
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
Anyone? I don't understand what this "residue" business is about?

Dr. G did not cut open the cranium and instead did visual and had testing done from saline washes of the cranium.

Dr. Spitz did open the cranium and found what was decribed as a residue that could be indicative that Caylee laid on her left side as she decomposed.

Just posting info on the "residue" not making a comment about which doctor was "right". TY all. JMHO

cloud9
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
JB came close to a homerun. He will get it on surrebuttal. Saline wash is not a good technique but he had to do it because he didn't open skull. Supports Dr. Spitz' assertion that autopsy was shoddy.

Respectfully, I disagree.

Plumeria5
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
ICA has a very worried look on her face. I think she feels the walls closing in on her.

jmfstl
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
DIRECT EXAMINATION OF BRUCE GOLDBERGER BY JA

He is professor and director of toxicology at University of Florida.

BA in zoology and MS and phD in forensic toxicology. The majority of his work is medical-legal.

He tests bodily fluids for the presence of volatile substances.

He was contacted by Dr. G in 2008 in reference to Caylee's remains. He came to Orlando and took samples which included a small piece of the left femur, some marrow of the left femur, they prepared two saline washes from the cranial cavity, hair samples, hair mat samples...

OBJECTION

SIDEBAR - 2:54-2:55

strands of hair, some matted hair and soil from the matted hair.

The cranial washes - in the autopsy room, they sealed the sutures of the cranium with a waxy material then added 30 ml of saline to the cranium then they poured the saline into tubes. They did this twice.

After analysis - they did not find that any of the residue was decomposition product.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY JB

Did you say you collected something from the femur?

OBJECTION

Yes.

SIDEBAR (2:58-3:00)

He collected bone marrow.

When he did the saline wash, was it a crude type method? It is a technique he has used a number of times. It's crude, but it is what it is. It is the best way he could do it without opening the skull.

Products of decomp - a number of chemicals. They were not tested for DNA. The chemicals they look for don't have DNA - low molecular weight compounds.

He is not a DNA analyst. He did not send the samples for DNA?

OBJECTION - SUSTAINED

He returned the samples to the ME in Orlando.

Witness excused.

Huge applause for MOMBOMB: :woohoo::rocker::takeabow:

sleutherontheside
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
As annoying as all of JB's objections may be, if he fails to object where possible.....he fails to preserve the record for appeal.

Granted he could skip a few objections, but considering he probably isn't savvy enough to filter them...he objects to everything.

NoeticSoul
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
Looks like Caylee is literally raining on ICA's parade today =)
Here too in Chicago ~ angry, thundery & lightning skies.

She's ashamed of her grandma.

fifteen89
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
All of us at Gentiva worked together in a work sharing program. We gave each other our passwords and covered for each other on a regular basis. If we had to leave the office for some personal business we just got someone to cover. We were all salaried and our manager knew what we were doing. That is why I enjoyed working there so much.

Ya might wanna be careful what you admit to. ;)
The lawyer guy just testified it's against policy to share logins/passwords with other employees. Well, I assume with anyone.

ahoyhoy
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
I'm an RN with about six different username/passwords for various computer programs at my job. I've been a nurse for twenty years, and in the last fifteen, I've used computers every day in my work. Not one single time, EVER, have I shared my password or even been ASKED by another nurse to know his/her password or share it. And I am the type of person folks consider nonjudgmental and maybe an easy "mark".

People that DO do it would never admit it in a court of law or even to each other for gawd's sake. And no one would come behind them and admit they were part of it even if they were. This is almost on the level of diverting narcotics for personal use.

Peteygirl.....I was just about to compare that the kind of people who would admit to sharing work passwords are the kind who would be dumb enough to discuss their potsmoking with co-workers too....Then you brought up narcotics...lol

jharres
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
State kicking a$$ today. :woohoo:

That is an understatement. :)

Murphismo
07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
:floorlaugh:
objection
SUSTAINED
but
SUSTAINED
may I approach your honor
NO
but
SUSTAINED!!:rocker:

Cherry Baby
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
Just from what I've been able to follow looks like everybody is a recipient of ICA's Death Star Stare today. Her own lawyers as well as the SA.

momtective
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
Raise your hand if you said Oh Chit out loud.

:wave:

ami
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
Awwwwww....poor wittle KC looks so sad.

Only because her time on stage is almost over.

MissSallyAnnie
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
And now, folks, Philip Seymour Hoffman takes the stand

Linda7NJ
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
and because Jose has to have the last word and insists on droning on and on ...........sur-rebuttle should be a blast:floorlaugh:

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
This guy is going to say good practices do not include cutting open a skull.

justanother
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
I would give anything to know what ICA is really thinking right about now...she's looking pretty pale to me...

I wonder if i should choose taco bell or cici's pizza as my last meal?

TraceyLeigh
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
Dr. G did not cut open the cranium and instead did visual and had testing done from saline washes of the cranium.

Dr. Spitz did open the cranium and found what was decribed as a residue that could be indicative that Caylee laid on her left side as she decomposed.

Just posting info on the "residue" not making a comment about which doctor was "right". TY all. JMHO

Thanks so much to you and everyone else that answered!! :seeya:

grepNYC
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
What happened to ICS's big wide eyes, and her joking and flirting?

TiaM
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
does anyone know if the defense can call their own surrerebuttal witnesses???

I think so (but only about 95% sure), but the surrebuttal MUST be within the scope of the rebuttal.

We know that JB doesn't exactly stick to that in cross examinations so..........

Nali87
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
I love rebuttals. Now that the state has seen what the DT had, they're coming out guns blazing!

monique
07-01-2011, 03:06 PM
JB came close to a homerun. He will get it on surrebuttal. Saline wash is not a good technique but he had to do it because he didn't open skull. Supports Dr. Spitz' assertion that autopsy was shoddy.

No offense intended but...

THAT's a HR? If so than the SA has scored about 20 grand slams during this rebuttal.

Sleuth5
07-01-2011, 03:07 PM
God bless the court reporter if she can spell all of the huge medical terms.

You bet she can! Medical Terminology is required curriculum for Court Reporter training, as is orthography. There is a section of the RPR (Registered Professional Reporter) exam that asks specific questions on medical issues and spellings.

Leah0107
07-01-2011, 03:07 PM
I am not an expert, but I would think as an attorney, even if you were losing your case, you would need to project a positive attitude instead appearing completely defeated - Just sayin'

cook78
07-01-2011, 03:07 PM
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen JB so pizzzzed.

pinkfly
07-01-2011, 03:07 PM
sad that this little skull got sawed oped by WS

BritsKate
07-01-2011, 03:07 PM
http://www.anthro.ufl.edu/faculty/Warren.shtml

Some info on Warren. OMG! Baez objects asking if cutting the skull open is routine in an anthropological exam stating outside of expertise!!! Does Baez not know what an anthro even does!?!?! Ugh!

Wishbone
07-01-2011, 03:07 PM
I think he is biased in favor of JB because Cheney Mason is on the team.


I just see JP as treading lightly as far as the DT is concerned in order to prevent appeals.

Yellow Rose
07-01-2011, 03:07 PM
It looks to me, observing ICA that she is aging on a daily basis and knowing more and more on a daily basis that she was "caught" and she will pay.

allycat1208
07-01-2011, 03:07 PM
Was this guy brought up to refute the ludicrous Dr. Spitz's opinions? Its probably unnecessary.

ami
07-01-2011, 03:07 PM
I guess she's given up pretending this type of testimony upsets her.

Bullwinkle
07-01-2011, 03:08 PM
Well, I don't care what this guy says. After I die, I certainly hope at least one of you will saw open my skull.

You just never know.

pinkfly
07-01-2011, 03:08 PM
end of JBís hall too

cityslick
07-01-2011, 03:08 PM
No one is stating that you should stop loving someone because of their faults, but covering up for murder does not fit the definition of love.
What happened to CA's love for Caylee? brushed aside in the quest to protect her murderer and herself.

I think we agree but we have different opinions as to why CA lied on the stand. Most seem to think she's lying to excuse her daughters guilt. I don't think this. I think she thinks she's guilty, but is trying to save her life by putting doubt int he pre-med part of the equation.

She did not admit to doing every single search that is in evidence.

gxm
07-01-2011, 03:08 PM
Great witness! Explaining why you shouldn't "further damage the remains."

Linda7NJ
07-01-2011, 03:08 PM
Jose is jealous, witness can spell

Sleuth5
07-01-2011, 03:08 PM
I am not an expert, but I would think as an attorney, even if you were losing your case, you would need to project a positive attitude instead appearing completely defeated - Just sayin'

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

newsjunkie
07-01-2011, 03:08 PM
Unconditional love doesn't mean you have to get a murdering child acquitted. It means you love them during the trial, you love them when they're convicted.

*respectively snipped by me*

This sooooo much!!

Sleuths4Me
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Witness "It's like a spelling bee"

Yep - Just ask JB:floorlaugh:

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
ICA has a very worried look on her face. I think she feels the walls closing in on her.

Yes her inner Klingon is showing.

Jada85
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Looking at ICA, I always get this feeling from her that she truly does not think this whole trial is a big deal. That there is no way anyone would find her guilty and she'll be sitting on the beach by Monday. She really is one of those people that get so caught up in their lies, that its now the truth to them. So horrifying.

Quiche
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
A dental mirror, thank goodness they don't open our heads to see our teeth!

Eileen730
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
sad that this little skull got sawed oped by WS

I agree it served no purpose...

pinkfly
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
JB didn’t even stand or look up when he objected

Softail
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
:lol: JB makes a funny face and starts writing furiously as Dr. Warren says "Dental mirror"

Firefly
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Why isn't she getting all weepy in this testimony.....she is forgetting her act!!!

goatman
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
"unnecessarily invasive to the remains" there we have it from the expert...and tears in my eyes

katydid23
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
With this judge, a conviction will be a miracle. He is so biased in favor of JB and the jury surely sees that.

Too bad, Caylee.

I think the judge is just working hard to preserve the GUILTY verdict. He has to bend over backwards for the DT now. If not it might come back on appeal. But since the judge keeps giving in to all of Baez's whining requests, it will possibly
save the verdict for the court. The DT is going to claim the judge was biased against ICA--and Judge Perry is going to show the many times he gave in to Baez, which will refute those claims. GUILTY VERDICT UPHELD.

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
I liked this guy the first time and I like him now.

Curious Me
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Dr. G did not cut open the cranium and instead did visual and had testing done from saline washes of the cranium.

Dr. Spitz did open the cranium and found what was decribed as a residue that could be indicative that Caylee laid on her left side as she decomposed.

Just posting info on the "residue" not making a comment about which doctor was "right". TY all. JMHO

Dr. Spitz opened the skull, but didn't test the supposed residue he found. Did he? Plus, he made a crack in Caylee's skull. I don't know, but he's the one that came across as incompetent to me.

JustMeDeb
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Tootie from Facts of Life needs to be doing trial analysis. "There's going to be trouuubbbllleee!"

Ninsi
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
I don't know whose expressions are more comical to me at this moment...the oh my gosh they are talking about the skull I better look sad expression or the oh my gosh is he actually asking him to spell those words that I can't say either so I think I will just sit here and try to look offended before I find a reason to object and ask for a sidebar.

susan1122
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
JA is funny "Through that large hole" when he couldn't pronounce that skull word I can't spell....even though the witness just spelled it.

erinleigh
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
i know darn sure JA knows how to pronounce the technical term for "the big hole" i like how he is keeping it simple by reminding the jury there is a hole at the base that you can look thru and use instruments to guide thru

rose222
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
awwwwww poor baby Caylee.

ynotdivein
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
Peeps, I am loving hearing everyone's take on the various issues that this trial and particularly Cindy's apparent perjury have raised. It's heartening to be here with so many thoughtful and intelligent posters.

But please do your best to keep Trial thread commentary specific to the events of the day. Remember that the Sidebar is open while court is in session, so that we can explore these topics without causing undue kerfuffle to our brother and sister WSers who can't watch IRT and who skim the Trial thread each evening to get an overview on the day's events.

You are wonderful, and :tyou: for making modding very easy today!

artbuc
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
OMG. Is he going to say Spitz broke the skull?

rice09
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
None of this fazes ICA. What. So. Ever. Skull, skeleton, brain, sawing, etc etc. She is so blank.

Wishbone
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
They're talking about cutting your child's fragile skull ICA. Can I get a reaction!!

belladonna
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
What do you think will happen to CA re: perjury ...if anything???

~PrinceSSa~
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
It looks to me, observing ICA that she is aging on a daily basis and knowing more and more on a daily basis that she was "caught" and she will pay.

Soon enough she won't be OUT of her cell for 8 hours wearing a pink ruffle blouse!

Quiche
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
KC's gone all muscle headed again-- she's tense.

BritsKate
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
Children's skulls are more fragile. :( Danger would be to create fractures by sawing through skull.

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
ICA looked like she just realized she should act upset. Hey wait, where is her thinker pose.

webhound
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
Start ICA eye poke in response to showing picture of skull.....

whiteangora
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
JB came close to a homerun. He will get it on surrebuttal. Saline wash is not a good technique but he had to do it because he didn't open skull. Supports Dr. Spitz' assertion that autopsy was shoddy.

If JB ever did score a home run he would never be able to find
his way back to home base in order to score........Believe me!!

AnotherGladysKravitz
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
"interdigitated" oooooh, how I love smart boys. *swoon*

egnarts
07-01-2011, 03:10 PM
I recommend this as post of the day! I couldn't have said this better myself!

ITA!
:takeabow:

samhunt
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Heh, Warren misspelled foramen twice.

Eileen730
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Looking at ICA, I always get this feeling from her that she truly does not think this whole trial is a big deal. That there is no way anyone would find her guilty and she'll be sitting on the beach by Monday. She really is one of those people that get so caught up in their lies, that its now the truth to them. So horrifying.

I dont think she thinks she will get out. Im sure she was told we can get the death pen dropped but she will be spending a longggggg time in jail.

NavySubMom
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Why isn't she getting all weepy in this testimony.....she is forgetting her act!!!

I think she remembered just in time, imo!

rice09
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Ooops I spoke too soon. Here comes the fake tears.

ami
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Ope, someone nudged ICA and gave her the sign to pretend to be upset by this.

cloud9
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
GA truly upset. :(

ICA fake tears. :maddening:

rose222
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
OMG, that is SO fake! I want to smack her!

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Oh no poor GA they just showed him in a REAL thinker pose even though JA was careful not to show that pic.

Leah0107
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
"unnecessarily invasive to the remains" there we have it from the expert...and tears in my eyes

I know and dr. spitz came off disrespectful like he would have come at it with a jack hammer - IMO

Quiche
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Oh it's the skull, must look away and cry....

GreenTeam
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
OMG. Is he going to say Spitz broke the skull?

He already said that in the defense case, on cross-examination.

Clearly Confused
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
OH dear...NOW ICA is gonna have a reaction ....please!

ExpectingUnicorns
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
She finally got the cry signal, late, but she got it. Can't quite pull it off.

QueenD
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
ICA just remember she was supposed to start acting up

Kat
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
There. His description on what could possibly happen if you sawed through a child's skull and you could create fractures.

That is what the jury is going to take into deliberations. Until he said that, I was wondering well why not? Just to keep from further desecrating remains of child is not a good reason---a good enough reason to present to a court of law. JMHO They got this one.

truthsleuth
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
JA: Is it considered ... are you aware of protocol requiring or recommending the opening of or sawing open of a skull?
No there is no protocol that I'm aware of.
Is it best practice to saw open a skull in a skeletal case?
No sir.

Is there a reason that sawing is not necessary or a bad idea?
You can look through the skull, into the skull. NO compelling reason to open it or saw it open.
Negative consequences, unnecessarily invasive.
Some object to view the inside of it?
A dental mirror or another small mirror.
Do you have a number of skulls under investigation presently, and have you found it necessary to saw open those skulls?
No.
Is there a reason to open it in children?
Children's skulls are more fragile and fractures can occur.

Sleuth5
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Too little, Too Late, ICA. You look angry, by the way, not sad. Poor little sociopath, just can't get that emotion stuff right...

BetteDavisEyes
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Casey looks ill.

fifteen89
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
She is thinking that she is done-for .

Has her overall demeanor or expression changed from Day 1 of the trial to now? Anyone have pics from Day handy to compare? After seeing the same look day after day, I have no clue what she's thinking.

Oh, she heard the word skull and immediately pinched her nose. Whatever. Take more acting classes, Casey. Ya might might wanna stop watching Paris Hilton movies. No offense to Paris intended.

Bon
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
I wonder if i should choose taco bell or cici's pizza as my last meal?

Has to be PIZZA!!!:floorlaugh:

Nali87
07-01-2011, 03:11 PM
ROFL. Did you guys just hear him, tried four time to pronounce anthropology, LOL? LMFAO.


I can't stand him.

Cailin Rua
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
None of this fazes ICA. What. So. Ever. Skull, skeleton, brain, sawing, etc etc. She is so blank.

Wait she pinched her nose and winced.

Tipstaff
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
JB is acting so amateurish

Curious Me
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Squeeze your nose bridge hard, ICA. Try to get those tears going.

nursebeeme
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
ICA working up a boo hoo moment.... it looked so FAKE!!!!

Darla
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
ICA just looked at Baez like she wanted to say Just STFU!!! LOL

Amster
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Drama!! Not working, ICA!! Too fake!!

Pita
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
She tried to squeeze some tears, but could not do it..~

ZsaZsa
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Dr. Spitz opened the skull, but didn't test the supposed residue he found. Did he? Plus, he made a crack in Caylee's skull. I don't know, but he's the one that came across as incompetent to me.

No, he criticized Dr G for not testing- what she clearly identified as sandy dirt- then he didn't do it either! Not only did he not do it he couldn't recall what happened to it and said he didn't have a Lab to test it...:banghead:

grammieto5
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
RT @lilialuciano: Questions to mothers: Would you lie on the stand to save your child from death penalty? (I know my mom would...)

No I would never lie. I taught my children no matter how horrible the thing is that they have done to lie about it is worse. I learned this from my mom.

KenoshaKid
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
OMG. Is he going to say Spitz broke the skull?

yes he did.

Softail
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
OMG. Is he going to say Spitz broke the skull?

It has already been established that Dr. Spitz did in fact break Caylee's skull.

rosepetal1065
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
JB all tongue tied

pinkfly
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
All of the state witnesses have been so clear and good....these rebuttal witnesses are outstanding

SeaNymph
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
see what Jeff just did with the pic of Caylee's skull? Wish he'd had a chance to do it again. He placed the photo of it directly in front of Casey facing her.

ETA: Baez got up and turned it around.

Murphismo
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Well, I don't care what this guy says. After I die, I certainly hope at least one of you will saw open my skull.

You just never know.

:floorlaugh:

Etiana
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
I just got here!!!! I won't ask for details but I'm desperate to know - is the State winning today or the Defense???

Thanks! :heartbeat:

minazoe
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
this is halarious.

susan1122
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Dr. Spitz opened the skull, but didn't test the supposed residue he found. Did he? Plus, he made a crack in Caylee's skull. I don't know, but he's the one that came across as incompetent to me.

Seeing Dr. Spitz testimony, he really seemed incompetent, IMO. He couldn't remember much of anything.....not even that he broke Caylee's skull.

MOO

norcat
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Poor George. :(

ohiogirl
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
When did Philip Seymour Hoffman become a forensic anthropoligist?

TortillaChip
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Whoa, hope the jury just saw ICA, she's all over the place trying to look for the appropriate emotions.

ami
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
It's okay. She got distracted when JB objected and the fake tears were forgotten.

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Are you a chemist?

rose222
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Poetic Justice will be the theme for the month for June 2011!

cook78
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
It's moving so quickly now. I think the SA is ready to get this over with!

kaki
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Discussion about sawing open baby Caylees skull... ICA remains unphased...just upset as to how this is affecting her defense.

Leah0107
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
OMG, that is SO fake! I want to smack her!

She's sad for herself - cause she's getting hammered

Sleuth5
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Casey looks ill.

Mentally or physically, Margot? Both?

QueenD
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
I think part of ICA punishment she should have to have a HUGE picture of the skull in her cell!

Still_Snarky
07-01-2011, 03:12 PM
off topic but...after a month of watching hln i am so tired of these same four commercials! :banghead:

GreenTeam
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
JB bringing up the photo and skull w/tape. Thanks for reminding the jury!

newsjunkie
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Agreed. I think if i didn't kill myself and my child first, and was put on the stand, I would go to jail before speaking. I would just say: 'I can't testify against my child. Please understand."

That makes more sense than to lie for them. IMO

SyraKelly
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
I wonder if i should choose taco bell or cici's pizza as my last meal?

I don't think she can have that-but a good post-lol
In Texas the inmate who is a cook..cooks their last meals,they can spend up to $40

yeknomaras
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
you are not a chemist.

Sleuths4Me
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
You are not a chemist

Grammaof4
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Peeps, I am loving hearing everyone's take on the various issues that this trial and particularly Cindy's apparent perjury have raised. It's heartening to be here with so many thoughtful and intelligent posters.

But please do your best to keep Trial thread commentary specific to the events of the day. Remember that the Sidebar is open while court is in session, so that we can explore these topics without causing undue kerfuffle to our brother and sister WSers who can't watch IRT and who skim the Trial thread each evening to get an overview on the day's events.

You are wonderful, and :tyou: for making modding very easy today!

Thank YOU

Cailin Rua
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Drama!! Not working, ICA!! Too fake!!

Aannnd she drops the attempt.

ljwf22
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
JB with a note pad. Gonna be long. :rolleyes:

EnquiringMind
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Pthalein. I think he said pthalein solution to wash the skull. He further referenced phenol (which would indicate to me that he said pthalein instead of saline...) but that sort of slipped by. It seems he did not do the skull wash with saline solution as far as I could tell.

Blue Ridge
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Not a forensic pathologist..forensic anthropoligist..... maybe a chemist?.... I dunno.

pinkfly
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
and you can’t testify intelligently....” really really dislike JB

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Oh you are not a medical doctor, never mind chemist.

yeknomaras
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
You are not a chemist

JINX!!!!!!! lol!

Quiche
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Low blow, Baez-- look into anthropology, sheesh. lol

fifteen89
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
"unnecessarily invasive to the remains" there we have it from the expert...and tears in my eyes

The word 'remains' should bring tears to Casey's eyes.

Softail
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
WOW! JB is being so rude! "You cannot testify intelligently"

TakeNote
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
i didnt think i could dis-like KC anymore then already.....now...finding out that she allowed her defense to saw open our baby's skull for NOTHING....i have no words....no words...:(

BetteDavisEyes
07-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Mentally or physically, Margot? Both?

Both, Eve ;)

ohiogirl
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
JB you son of a gun. The snark is flying.

MissSallyAnnie
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
:lol: JB makes a funny face and starts writing furiously as Dr. Warren says "Dental mirror"
I noticed that too! Funny!

GreenTeam
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
Getting so tired of JB!

rosepetal1065
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
It took her (ICA) a little longer to get her motor running..but she's tuned up now...

Plumeria5
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
I think this rebuttal is going too long. I think it should have ended with Cindy's log in records. That would have been more powerful. Premeditation.

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
Oh I can see this is going to go very badly for Baez.

minazoe
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
i hear a toilet flushing off in the distance....oh no...that's just Casey's freedom.

jharres
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
I just got here!!!! I won't ask for details but I'm desperate to know - is the State winning today or the Defense???

Thanks! :heartbeat:

The State is mopping the floor today. They are absolutely rocking the place.

ami
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
This witness doesn't mind JB's "jabs" - he's completely fine.

MissSallyAnnie
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
Spell? He can't even say anthropologist!

Nali87
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
He can't even pronounce the word and he talks about others testifying intelligently. Ha.

pinkfly
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
this guy holds his own okay but JB tries to use irrelevance to chip at him

greycoupon
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
powerpoint .... quicktime....

was done on photoshop? Maybe it was done on a blog.

Was this the video that morphed the photo of Caylee to a live skull or something else?

JB has been very helpful in pointing out what various experts aren't doctors of.

JustMeDeb
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
Too late for the dramatics ICA.

SyraKelly
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
I can tell you this -ICA is very very lucky she did not kill her daughter in TX,Because they would have NO problem with giving her the DP!!

ZsaZsa
07-01-2011, 03:14 PM
There. His description on what could possibly happen if you sawed through a child's skull and you could create fractures.

That is what the jury is going to take into deliberations. Until he said that, I was wondering well why not? Just to keep from further desecrating remains of child is not a good reason---a good enough reason to present to a court of law. JMHO They got this one.

They did not need to open the skull.... they looked through the foramen magnum (great hole) at the base of the skull. It was empty of contents so apart from the bony interior there was nothing to examine....

marie-chantal
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
None of this fazes ICA. What. So. Ever. Skull, skeleton, brain, sawing, etc etc. She is so blank.

I see her getting red in the face right now. I've noticed that she does this right before we start seeing the miracle tissue-the one that never seems to get wet even though Casey is apparently wiping away tears.

IMO she's trying to work up some tears right now. Give her a few more minutes; we'll probably see some "tears". MOO

Sleuthster
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
I worked for Gentiva Carecentrix in Tampa a few years ago and I never shared my password with other coworkers or asked them to log in for me while I was out. I just wanted to voice this.

Sleuth5
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
I think part of ICA punishment she should have to have a HUGE picture of the skull in her cell!

No, she'd like that too much. Recall her fondness for serial killer movies, death imagery, etc. She's no shrinking violet.

noelle91176
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
wow, Casey is not having a very happy day. I wonder why lol.

ami
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
Oh fer goodness sake. JB giggles at the word "magnum".

rose222
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
"Some" document. I guess it's good enough to be used for GENOCIDE cases but not enough for Baez.

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
Shheeesh. MDs call in forensic anthropologists when the get skeletal remains as a Medical Examiner.

TiaM
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
JB with a note pad. Gonna be long. :rolleyes:

Someone must have spent his time in the restaurant at lunch on the phone with LKB getting his questions ready.

Carolina Girl
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
She still has time to throw herself on the mercy of the Court. But clock is ticking.

allycat1208
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
What do you think will happen to CA re: perjury ...if anything???

Nothing! Its been said a bunch of times in the lawyers threads that its too difficult to prove perjury.

pinkfly
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
asking why you look inside large hole at bottom of skull.....because you can see in

angeleleven
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
JB has to get it on the record that he isn't the only one that can't say that word correctly.

Quiche
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
Why do you look in there, what's the big deal???

You are so inept, Baez.

Still_Snarky
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
omg, jb comes across as SO unprofessional... blech.

tehcloser
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
"What's the big deal?"...........Oh, JB.

katydid23
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
JB trying hard to be condescending and put this guy down for being an ANTHROPOLOGIST
but he cannot even pronounce it, so he just looks foolish, as usual.

Bon
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
OMG, that is SO fake! I want to smack her!

OMG, me too!!!!!!!!!!:great:

MissSallyAnnie
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
Did Baez just say "What's the big deal?" OMG, he's going to go off before this thing is over.

mitzi
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
and because Jose has to have the last word and insists on droning on and on ...........sur-rebuttle should be a blast:floorlaugh:

How much you want to bet that the only people Jose calls during sur-rebuttle will be CA, GA, LA, and RK. *rolling my eyeballs all around*

JBounds
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
Seemed like ICA was medicated today or something.

KenoshaKid
07-01-2011, 03:15 PM
JB tries to sneak in suffocation.

fifteen89
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
What happened to ICS's big wide eyes, and her joking and flirting?

Have no fear.....fun flirty chatty Casey will be back as soon as the jury break.

tut med
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
JB asks why----really we all want to ask your client that!

shezcrafti
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
Random vent: I can't stand the way JB does that smarmy "neck adjusting" move or whatever it is. Almost like his collar is too tight.

(Sorry mods, if this is inappropriate please delete.)

minazoe
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
Im in the mood for chilli tonite.

rosepetal1065
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
I see her getting red in the face right now. I've noticed that she does this right before we start seeing the miracle tissue-the one that never seems to get wet even though Casey is apparently wiping away tears.IMO she's trying to work up some tears right now. Give her a few more minutes; we'll probably see some "tears". MOO

The sham-wow kleenex

sarag
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
http://i51.tinypic.com/294jo7b.jpg

ICA looking pretty nervous, IMO

GreenTeam
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
"Create" pathological findings? LOL! Maybe in JB's world.

Boodles
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
I'm confused. What does the defense imply could have been found if the skull had been opened???

Reality Orlando
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
Lol, JB holds things up and asks the Doc if he's familiar with them, but doesn't bring in anything from the publication.

pinkfly
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
JB sure wants to belittle experts that he didn’t think to call

strawberry
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
When I took anatomy I had no idea Foramen or Magnum were that difficult to pronounce or spell. The body has a lot of foramens.

Blue Ridge
07-01-2011, 03:16 PM
I think this rebuttal is going too long. I think it should have ended with Cindy's log in records. That would have been more powerful. Premeditation.

Maybe it will end with the 'NO SEARCHES AT ALL FOR CHLOROPHYLL' guy?

downport
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
ICA has a very worried look on her face. I think she feels the walls closing in on her.

Yea, it's like she can't even be bothered pretending to be upset they're talking about her daughters skull.

Just like the Judge - his voice just sounds like he is so done with all this. It's almost comical but for how sad the case is.

Sleuth5
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
omg, jb comes across as SO unprofessional... blech.

Well, just ask him about the bikini business, and he'll show you a thing or two.

Darla
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
Watch ICA have a panic attack and they have to stop the trial--again.

justanother
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
Random vent: I can't stand the way JB does that smarmy "neck adjusting" move or whatever it is. Almost like his collar is too tight.

(Sorry mods, if this is inappropriate please delete.)

Me too!! He thinks he is Rocky, ready to fight!

nursebeeme
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
oh gooooody!!!! ((((nurse rubs hands together in anticipation)))... wesh live blog saying computer witness in the hallway!!!! ((I soooooo want to see the testimony on the chloraphyl!))

Curious Me
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
JB using the word pathological so much is not good because the main thing people connect that word with is Pathological Liar.

marie-chantal
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
WOW! JB is being so rude! "You cannot testify intelligently"

Well...he can't cross-examine intelligently IMO.

Jose: Pot.kettle.black

(except that IMO this witness CAN testify intelligently, and is doing so)

rice09
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
She just gave JA a nasty ole mean look. LOL

whiteangora
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
Could Baez possibly be any more ignorant or insulting to this witness?
I'm so glad I never watch Spanish TV, where he will be hanging out
after the trial.

Etiana
07-01-2011, 03:17 PM
The State is mopping the floor today. They are absolutely rocking the place.

Thanks jharres! Thats exactly what I needed to know before I continue watching - appreciate you answering.