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Jayelles
10-09-2003, 03:03 PM
I've spent the last few weeks taking part in a most fascinating experiment.

Forever the cynic, I have always backed off from discussions about handwriting because I thought it was a voodoo science, however, I have been more or less convinced otherwise.

I took part in an experiment where numerous people wrote the London Letter using both hands and they were submitted anonymously for comparison. The analyst then stunned us by matching the left and right samples.

The analyst was also very accurate at saying which samples were done by a male and which were done by a female.

The next part of the experiment is what is interesting me most though. There has been so much debate about the handwriting in the Ramsey ransom note and how it looks like Patsy's. Ergo, if it isn't Patsy's - could it be someone impersonating Paty's handwriting?

I set out to see if I could impersonate someone else's handwriting and whether I could fool the analyst. Surprisingly, it is proving much more difficult than I could ever have imagined.

I haven't quite managed to complete the forgery yet, but I am working on it steadily. I have been forced to research handwriting characteristics and to look for the characteristics in the person whose handwriting I am trying to forge - so that I may make a better forgery. It's really not easy. I am finding that there is a great deal of planning involved in doing it IF I want to succeed.

I will keep ye posted.

Shylock
10-09-2003, 04:58 PM
Why don't you print out that PDF file sample of Patsy's writing versus the ransom note, show it to the analyst and see what he/she thinks.

That could be informative.

Casshew
10-09-2003, 05:02 PM
Jayelles.. I hope you never get ahold of my check book.

:behindbar

Cass...

Jayelles
10-09-2003, 05:19 PM
The analyst thinks Patsy wrote the note.

SisterSocks
10-11-2003, 04:18 AM
Do you think Patsy wrote the note Jay?

Socks

Blazeboy3
10-11-2003, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by SisterSocks
Do you think Patsy wrote the note Jay?

Socks

JonBhttp://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/enet Ramsey Ransom Note

A key piece of evidence in solving this murder is the ransom note. The police as well as the Ramseys believe that whoever wrote the note is probably the killer. If the police can match the handwriting in the ransom note to a suspect's handwriting, the case is solved. The problem has been they have not found a match. Even without a positive match, the ransom note is still the key to solving this crime.

FYI (read!)

http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/06/01/ramseys/

Mrs. Ramsey then said,

"I totally agree that whoever wrote this ransom note killed our daughter."

She then looked at Thomas and said,

"How is it exactly that you think that I killed my daughter? I just cannot understand that."


WHY WOULD A MOM ASK THE ABOVE QUESTION ,,, WHY OHH WHY EVEN GO THERE????????????????????????

Ivy
10-11-2003, 11:54 AM
For someone to have forged Patsy's handwriting, that person would have to have studied Patsy's handwriting very meticulously to know that she didn't always form her letters in the same way. Whoever wrote the ransom note formed various letters in different ways--all of which matched the ways the same letters were formed in Patsy's exemplars.

I am absolutely convinced Patsy wrote the ransom note, but I don't think she is the killer.

sissi
10-11-2003, 12:45 PM
A question for Jayelles.
Were the samples in your experiment cursive handwriting or the print style used in the ransom note?
If a person were clever ,deciding to choose perhaps three letters they felt were unique to the person they were trying to copy,and were fairly precise with these three letters,would it throw off the analysis?
JMO IMO

sissi
10-11-2003, 02:21 PM
I am interested in this issue, because someone I never suspected never considered, was so seriously considered by John and Patsy. I don't think it was "throwing friends under the bus",I really believe they are sincere.
It seems, this person had something personal of Patsy's, a day planner, had the same jacket as she, said things along the line of "I'd rather eat glass than live in the oppulent style of .......(a friend of the Ramseys).
To Jayelles or whoever I argued about the papoosing,it seems John had quite a few talks with Douglas,he described the crime scene and was given some instruction by Douglas,something about having a clue or an idea and fitting it into the box.
Evidently John's description of the wrapping of his daughter,which a woman may call swaddling,between these two men was referred to as "papoosing". I know any woman on here,understands the newborn wrap,the blanket is layed down,the child put on,and the sides folded over neatly,usually it's three fold,foot section up,then side ,followed by other side.
In our area papoosing is the term used when children have to be restrained,it's more of an effort to keep their feet and hands from hitting equipment during uncomfortable procedures that don't call for anesthetic. I was wrong in this case, as John did use the term,the one that I would call swaddling.

This positioning indicated to the men,that someone who cared
a bit about her after her death did choose to make her appear comfortable. This led the Ramseys to thinking it had to be someone close,someone who other than this horrible act,cared about Jonbenet. That is how it seems the housekeeper,santa,and Priscilla got on the list,not because they thought any of them were the killers,but because they thought these people cared about her.
IMO JMO

Show Me
10-11-2003, 02:34 PM
Good thread on an old subject Jayelles.

I too watched the LKL debate between Thomas and the Ramseys.

I was also shocked when Patsy asked Thomas, "When do you think I wrote the ransom note before or after I killed JonBenet..." and I believe she pointed to herself.

Seemed like a subliminal confession to me.

Jayelles
10-11-2003, 05:49 PM
To whomever asked - I don't know if Patsy wrote the note because I'm not qualified to analyse handwriting. I would only recognise someone's handwriting if it were very distinctive.

Now that I'm actually involved in a serious experiment with handwriting, I am discovering how hard it is to forge another person's handwriting so that it would fool a handwriting expert.

The handwriting analyst who has been doing this experiment is a very scary person. He identified my sex and occupation from my handwriting. That scared the life out of me. There is so much that can be determined from a person's handwriting that never occured to me.

The forgery is cursive which I think makes it harder. Someone (Sissi?) asked if focusing on perhaps 3 distinctive features would throw the expert off? The answer is no. That was actually a question I asked myself. There is way too much more involved in handwriting analysis and much of it is done unconsciously.

Now I'm a slow thinker and pretty methodical in my approach to tasks and I'm studying and planning this carefully. I'm trying to put myself in the place of a person who really wanted to throw suspicion on Patsy Ramsey and how they would go about it.

I think you guys will be interested in my method which I will reveal when the analyst has examined the forgeries.

There are four stages to my forgery and I'm on stage three now. I think you'll be surprised at the approach :-)

sissi
10-11-2003, 05:58 PM
Thanks for your reply Jayelles. I am looking forward to your "report" on the forgery. It should be interesting!

:)

Casshew
10-11-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Jayelles


There are four stages to my forgery and I'm on stage three now. I think you'll be surprised at the approach :-)

Keep us posted :)

Cass...

Blazeboy3
10-12-2003, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Casshew
Keep us posted :)

Cass...

DITTO! I'M INTERESTED IN YOUR FIND...!!!

Blazeboy3
10-12-2003, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Jayelles
To whomever asked - I don't know if Patsy wrote the note because I'm not qualified to analyse handwriting. I would only recognise someone's handwriting if it were very distinctive.

Now that I'm actually involved in a serious experiment with handwriting, I am discovering how hard it is to forge another person's handwriting so that it would fool a handwriting expert.

The handwriting analyst who has been doing this experiment is a very scary person. He identified my sex and occupation from my handwriting. That scared the life out of me. There is so much that can be determined from a person's handwriting that never occured to me.

The forgery is cursive which I think makes it harder. Someone (Sissi?) asked if focusing on perhaps 3 distinctive features would throw the expert off? The answer is no. That was actually a question I asked myself. There is way too much more involved in handwriting analysis and much of it is done unconsciously.

Now I'm a slow thinker and pretty methodical in my approach to tasks and I'm studying and planning this carefully. I'm trying to put myself in the place of a person who really wanted to throw suspicion on Patsy Ramsey and how they would go about it.

I think you guys will be interested in my method which I will reveal when the analyst has examined the forgeries.

There are four stages to my forgery and I'm on stage three now. I think you'll be surprised at the approach :-)

Blazeboy3
10-12-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Jayelles
The analyst thinks Patsy wrote the note.

Blazeboy3
10-12-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by Jayelles
The analyst thinks Patsy wrote the note.

i "THINKS THE SAME THING-PATSY WROTE THE NOTE!"

Blazeboy3
10-12-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Jayelles
I've spent the last few weeks taking part in a most fascinating experiment.

Forever the cynic, I have always backed off from discussions about handwriting because I thought it was a voodoo science, however, I have been more or less convinced otherwise.

I took part in an experiment where numerous people wrote the London Letter using both hands and they were submitted anonymously for comparison. The analyst then stunned us by matching the left and right samples.

The analyst was also very accurate at saying which samples were done by a male and which were done by a female.

The next part of the experiment is what is interesting me most though. There has been so much debate about the handwriting in the Ramsey ransom note and how it looks like Patsy's. Ergo, if it isn't Patsy's - could it be someone impersonating Paty's handwriting?

I set out to see if I could impersonate someone else's handwriting and whether I could fool the analyst. Surprisingly, it is proving much more difficult than I could ever have imagined.

I haven't quite managed to complete the forgery yet, but I am working on it steadily. I have been forced to research handwriting characteristics and to look for the characteristics in the person whose handwriting I am trying to forge - so that I may make a better forgery. It's really not easy. I am finding that there is a great deal of planning involved in doing it IF I want to succeed.

I will keep ye posted.
and you'LL share w/us your 1ST instinct - description/reaspm as in info acquired/right???!!!

ajt400
10-27-2003, 10:58 PM
What about the fact that on a scale of 1-5 (1=match; 5=excluded)
Patsy scored a 4.5?

I don't believe someone cold try to hide their handwriting and fool an expert. You would end up showing more of yourself than if you just wrote it naturally.

twilight
10-27-2003, 11:26 PM
Ajt 400 Ever heard of Urban legend? This is an Internet legend of the same ilk. Patsy scored 24 out of 26 letters as a match. (ST Book)

Missing 2 and making that a 4.5 out of 5, or a long shot, is not possible no matter what you do with the numbers. 2 out of 26 cannot equal 4.5.

However, 24 out of 26 can equal (24 divided by 26 = 92.3% and 92.3% of 5 = 4.6) 4.5 out of 5. Do the math. Someone has rearranged the numbers and tried to make them work to their advantage.

Patsy scored 4.5 out of a possible 5, making her an extremely high probabilty for a match. And what's more she scores 5 out of 5, for a linguistic match. Therefore it is safe to conclude that Patsy wrote the ransom note. Hands down, no argument.

That means that one of those Ramseys did the dirty deed BECAUSE mommy dearest would not write the note for a total stranger, now would she.

Over time I have come to the conclusion that the only person an individual as self-centered as PR would protect, would be herself.

tipper
10-27-2003, 11:58 PM
ajt400
Read ST's deposition for information on the handwriting analysis. The 24/26 statement has NOT been verified.

Maxi
10-28-2003, 12:22 AM
What do you guys think caused the shakiness in the handwriting?

Blazeboy3
10-28-2003, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by twilight
Ajt 400 Ever heard of Urban legend? This is an Internet legend of the same ilk. Patsy scored 24 out of 26 letters as a match. (ST Book)

Missing 2 and making that a 4.5 out of 5, or a long shot, is not possible no matter what you do with the numbers. 2 out of 26 cannot equal 4.5.

However, 24 out of 26 can equal (24 divided by 26 = 92.3% and 92.3% of 5 = 4.6) 4.5 out of 5. Do the math. Someone has rearranged the numbers and tried to make them work to their advantage.

Patsy scored 4.5 out of a possible 5, making her an extremely high probabilty for a match. And what's more she scores 5 out of 5, for a linguistic match. Therefore it is safe to conclude that Patsy wrote the ransom note. Hands down, no argument.

That means that one of those Ramseys did the dirty deed BECAUSE mommy dearest would not write the note for a total stranger, now would she.

Over time I have come to the conclusion that the only person an individual as self-centered as PR would protect, would be herself.

DITTO(HOWEVER SO PAINFUL TO ADMIT!)...LOL; YOU SAID IT...SO RIGHTLY/PAINFULLY that I'm working on channelling the emotions of pain!!!...!!!

Blazeboy3
10-28-2003, 04:21 AM
We (one) must do this to understand IMHO...it's a challenge in the modern day living ritual...>GAME OF LIFE if you want to call it that?!?!

Blazeboy3
10-28-2003, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Maxi
IMHO PATSY'S (LEFT HAND ON SUITCASE) caused the shakiness!? in the handwriting?

!?; IMHO PATSY'S (LEFT HAND ON SUITCASE) caused the shakiness!?MIND OVER MATTER...TOGETHER-THEY'RE (JOHN/PATSY) A TEAM "TOGETHER, WHERE WE GO."

(HER AND JOHN ... not JonBenet ...)...!!!

Jayelles
10-28-2003, 04:33 AM
What do you guys think caused the shakiness in the handwriting?

Maxi, how timely is that question? :-) Yesterday, I tore up yet another two attempts at my forgery because of my shaking! I just need to keep trying. I am shaking because of the speed that I am writing at - slow because I am conentrating on forming the letters in a particular way.

This experiment is only going to be good for one thing - to see if someone else could convincingly forge another's writing. I don't think that it's going to fool my analyst because the real person (the person whose writing I am trying to forge) is also going to write the same passage for the analyst to compare.

It's hard. I think it would be easier if I was a bit more artistic. My handwriting is messy and the person whose writing I am trying to forge has nice handwriting.

Blazeboy3
10-28-2003, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by Maxi
What do you guys think caused the shakiness in the handwriting?

IMHO She (Patsy) had just done the UNTHINKABLE(who wants to GO THERE?)!;she(Patsy)warned us "DON'T GO THERE PAL!" remember? !

Blazeboy3
11-01-2003, 06:45 AM
WOW OH WOW...I can see that this "thinking/posting" didn't fly:go anywhere...??? Why?

Blazeboy3
11-01-2003, 06:47 AM
IMHO..read the latest book by W.A. Davis;I've got/read it and it's trama/compelling if you can comprehend/handle the dark side...!
IMHO...it's truly HARD TO READ BUT POSSIBLE IMHO...

http://www.fetchbook.info/search_1413411088/tab_editions.html
An Evening with JonBenet Ramsey
By Walter A. Davis
Paperback / Xlibris Corporation / September, 2003 / 1413411088
List Price $21.99 / Books Similar to An Evening with JonBenet Ramsey
See also at Amazon.

Jayelles
12-27-2003, 05:45 PM
I have posted the results of my handwriting experiment at Purgatory in the JBR folder under "Handwriting Experiment".

You can compare my forgery and the real article and you can read about my struggle to get as far as I did with the experiment.

For those who can't be bothered going to Purgatory, the bottom line was that I failed to achieve the last stage of my forgery. I created the forgery using a scanned piece of writing from my 'forgee'. I then copied and pasted words and letters from the sample and created my new piece of text. The final stage was to print it out and trace it but I was unable to trace it due to shaky hands and lack of time.

When you compare the two side by side, you can tell which one is the forgery because it's not as neat as the real article. However, my objective was to produce a forgery which would be "questionable" - i.e. which could not EXCLUDE the forgee as the writer.

Have I achieved that? Check it out:-

http://forums.delphiforums.com/PurgatoryII/messages

MsBee
12-28-2003, 09:26 PM
It wasn't just Patsy's handwriting but also the way Patsy wrote and spoke that indicated Patsy was the author. Patsy herself said whoever wrote the ransom note also was the killer of her daughter. That was a confession.

Little
12-28-2003, 10:48 PM
Jayelles, what you have done is quite impressive. I'm right handed and although I'm not incapable of writing with my left hand it's not something I would do unless there was no other alternative. I do know people though who are reasonably comfortable writing with either hand. My neighbor suffered a stroke several years ago and had to re-learn most all tasks from what she knew her entire life as a right hander. Her handwriting still appears shakey even though she has had about 20 years of practice.

Little

Jayelles
12-29-2003, 07:04 AM
To those who have taken time to check out the results. The person whose handwriting I forged actually thought it was her own writing too! Of course, it's a modern day forgery - done by computer technology.

As regards Patsy's linguistic style, I think any good friend would be able to do that. I could mimic a few of my friends by using phrases of theirs'.

twilight
12-29-2003, 08:12 PM
Let's check that out shall we?

'any good friend'

is a phrase Jayelle just used in the last post. So, let's all make up sentences using this phrase and then look to see if they are the same or different. When we get a collection I'll show you how they are similar and how they are different. Who's game?

Ivy
12-29-2003, 08:20 PM
I think any good friend would be game, twilight.

Britt
12-29-2003, 08:25 PM
As regards Patsy's linguistic style, I think any good friend would be able to do that. I could mimic a few of my friends by using phrases of theirs'.
So which good friend of Patsy's is a viable suspect here, and why?

Jayelles
12-30-2003, 07:11 PM
So which good friend of Patsy's is a viable suspect here, and why?

Well, who do we know that likes to impersonate others?

Ivy
12-30-2003, 09:08 PM
Jayelles, do you mean Susan Stine? If so, are you suggesting that she murdered JonBenet and wrote the note in Patsy's handwriting to implicate Patsy? Susan's wacky, but I can't imagine her doing anything like this.