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Salem
07-21-2011, 07:03 PM
Please continue here.

Thread 1


ALSO - please remember, we do NOT sleuth minors, we do NOT post identifying information about minors, we do NOT name minors.

If a minor is a victim or has been publically named by LE as a perp, then their name may be used. In this particular case, the ONLY minor that may be identified by name is Max, because he was a victim. ALL other minors are OFF THE TABLE.

This is a strict rule and your cooperation is appreciated.

Thanks,

Salem

ETA: Further explanation on minor names. Even when quoting from MSM or other sources, if the minor is not the victim or the perp, we change the name to initials. We do NOT quote the name of the minor. This is to protect the minor. Please keep that in mind. Try to put yourself in the shoes of the parent of that minor. What would you think if your child's name was splattered all over the web.

Thanks Guys!

colette
07-21-2011, 07:16 PM
It's unfair to say that since they have money, LE will call a murder a suicide.

scorekeeper
07-21-2011, 07:22 PM
Remember RN also had that blue scarf around her neck

If this is a suicide or a homicide, no matter what kind of knot was used, it served its purpose; she is deceased

If the knot is not correct for a hanging, does that tell us that perhaps she was never really "hanging"; the scene was staged?

Someone had to "rush" the child out of the home; get her to the airport and on her way to SC..so who else was in the home...remember one of the initial stories said that Dina was there...how far is the airport? Did the police even get to question her?

Why such a big secret as to if another child was there unless that child had something to do with the "accident"

Or was the disturbance at Dina's house due to her finding out about Maxie's accident.....

This is definitely a "made for TV movie" :banghead::waitasec::banghead:

scorekeeper
07-21-2011, 07:29 PM
They don't cover the body now like they once learned not to move the body. Unless they know the cause of death, body stays uncovered until forensics are complete. - previously posted......

couldn't they have put up a make-shift tent over her without jepardizing the scene?

oceanblueeyes
07-21-2011, 07:36 PM
Bringing this post over to reply to it.


cluciano63
poster Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 13,068

Good Lord, her body was left there for most of the day, for media to photograph...? What the heck? No one even covered her?

I can't get over the naked part...I don't even like to get naked for my shower when I am home alone, fearing a burglar might see me

************************************************** ***

While it seems insensitive I know but it is really customary for the body to lay there for hours uncovered while the police are investigating the scene. To cover her body at first before all the evidence is examined could mean they have destroyed or contaminated evidence they may need.

I am sure LE had no clue the helicopter media photographer would be so rude and crude as to show Rebecca's body even if they blurred it.

IMO

Carrington
07-21-2011, 07:40 PM
The only thing I am saying about the knot is I don't think Adam is the murderer or that he staged the scene, due to his job as tugboat employee.
Real knot vs makeshift. Of course I could be wrong.
IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-21-2011, 07:41 PM
It's unfair to say that since they have money, LE will call a murder a suicide.

I have to agree with that. That is saying LE would let someone go that they knew committed homicide based solely on the owner of the home having money.

There is just no evidence of that. None.

I do think LE will thoroughly investigate both deaths so they can be certain they have come to the right determination.

IMO

anyoldtime48
07-21-2011, 07:42 PM
Remember RN also had that blue scarf around her neck

If this is a suicide or a homicide, no matter what kind of knot was used, it served its purpose; she is deceased

If the knot is not correct for a hanging, does that tell us that perhaps she was never really "hanging"; the scene was staged?

Someone had to "rush" the child out of the home; get her to the airport and on her way to SC..so who else was in the home...remember one of the initial stories said that Dina was there...how far is the airport? Did the police even get to question her?

Why such a big secret as to if another child was there unless that child had something to do with the "accident"

Or was the disturbance at Dina's house due to her finding out about Maxie's accident.....

This is definitely a "made for TV movie" :banghead::waitasec::banghead:

BBM

eh????? what disturbance at Dina's house? Missed that.

oceanblueeyes
07-21-2011, 07:46 PM
The only thing I am saying about the knot is I don't think Adam is the murderer or that he staged the scene, due to his job as tugboat employee.
Real knot vs makeshift. Of course I could be wrong.
IMO

I dont think there is one thing pointing to Adam as having anything to do with any of this. He is just the unfortunate soul who had to see this and I am sure he will never forget it as long as he lives.

IMO

mrsu
07-21-2011, 07:47 PM
Great photo. Don't think we've seen this view before. Maybe someone can grab and post here.

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Rebecca-Zahau-Crime-Scene.png

Quester
07-21-2011, 07:47 PM
... snipped ...

If the knot is not correct for a hanging, does that tell us that perhaps she was never really "hanging"; the scene was staged?



The type of knot it was not was new information. It was not a "noose" knot. It could have been any knot. And yes, it was an effective knot whatever it was.

I don't think the type of knot can tell us anything about scene staging or not.

That's alot of nots/knots!

scorekeeper
07-21-2011, 08:01 PM
BBM

eh????? what disturbance at Dina's house? Missed that.


http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2011/07/rebecca-zahau-death-authorities-seal-records-push-suicide-meme/

time previously posted this on thread one

it's a good read

mrsu
07-21-2011, 08:01 PM
From the other thread:


OK now some guy is calling into HLN and says he is a friend of Rebecca's and has info etc...and then tells Vinnie P. that he has not yet talked to detectives but has an appointment to do so next Tuesday...meanwhile he tells HLN all about his last visit with Rebecca...WTF is wrong with people...

The guy that Vinnie talked to was the DOG GUY. Vinnie said he was a friend, and he actually corrected Vinnie and said he wasn't her friend, but the person who picked up the dog on Tuesday morning. The only *new* thing he really said was that as he was leaving a woman was getting out of the car...looked like she was visiting the house. He didn't say what she looked like or if she indeed did go inside. He said he has spoken to the police twice and has another appt. to speak to them on Tuesday.

time
07-21-2011, 08:03 PM
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20512077,00.html


Shacknai has three children with his first two wives; Max's mother is Shacknai's second wife, Dina Romano, whom Shacknai divorced in 2008 shortly before he started dating Nalepa, an ophthalmic technician at Horizon Eye Specialists & Lasik Center in Scottsdale, Ariz.

:shrug:

Melanie
07-21-2011, 08:06 PM
I don't get this picture - so I'd appreciate any comments. How did she hang herself? Where did she hang herself from? The balcony you see above appears to be a faux balcony. So did Rebecca open the window, lower the rope down? Then she went downstairs, stood on the table, then jumped off the table?

Someone help me out what I'm seeing here. It makes no sense to me.

MOO

Mel

17876

mrsu
07-21-2011, 08:11 PM
I don't get this picture - so I'd appreciate any comments. How did she hang herself? Where did she hang herself from? The balcony you see above appears to be a faux balcony. So did Rebecca open the window, lower the rope down? Then she went downstairs, stood on the table, then jumped off the table?

Someone help me out what I'm seeing here. It makes no sense to me.

MOO

Mel

17876

Good catch! I didn't notice that!! I think it happened the way you describe if she did hang herself. I guess they could still be doors that open? Either way, I do not thing she jumped either way.

Carrington
07-21-2011, 08:15 PM
I didn't notice that either.
I don't see any doors, surely she didn't jump out a window!
IMO

Melanie
07-21-2011, 08:15 PM
Good catch! I didn't notice that!! I think it happened the way you describe if she did hang herself. I guess they could still be doors that open? Either way, I do not thing she jumped either way.

Another thought here -- if she jumped off the table, chances are she would kick the table hysterically in instinct. Why is the table directly under the faux balcony? I would expect the table to be tipped over. Just my opinion - I'm no expert on these types of things.

MOO

Mel

Quester
07-21-2011, 08:16 PM
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20512077,00.html

:shrug:

Also from your posted link:

Adam is a "prime witness" who has been "very cooperative," Frank says, adding that he has since left California.

scorekeeper
07-21-2011, 08:19 PM
Good catch! I didn't notice that!! I think it happened the way you describe if she did hang herself. I guess they could still be doors that open? Either way, I do not thing she jumped either way.

In other pictures, i think there are french door leading to the balcony. The balcony top looks to be about 15 feet from ground. the arrow is pointing to the table (i think the one with 3 legs).

Melanie
07-21-2011, 08:24 PM
In other pictures, i think there are french door leading to the balcony. The balcony top looks to be about 15 feet from ground. the arrow is pointing to the table (i think the one with 3 legs).

But if the table is where the brother cut her down from, why is the table under the faux balcony? Did he cut her down from another location and move the table? I don't see a balcony where Rebecca could step out from -- other than the faux balcony. She very well may have been able to climb out the window and hang herself. Just seems like another stumbling block to me though -- when there are real balconies to hang oneself out of. This whole scenario is quite baffling.

Again - just my opinion.

Mel

IzzyBlanche
07-21-2011, 08:26 PM
Good catch! I didn't notice that!! I think it happened the way you describe if she did hang herself. I guess they could still be doors that open? Either way, I do not thing she jumped either way.

The only way I see this working is she would have had to be on the ground floor, stand on something to put the rope around the balcony, then put the noose end around her neck and jump off whatever she was standing on.

I totally agree that if it was the table, the table would have been knocked over, but it's standing upright. And I don't see anything else there that she could have stood on.

I think the suicide scenario gets less and less likely. It looks to me like to do it the other way, she would have had to climb out the window (that doesn't look like a door off the balcony) and that window is closed. So I'm to believe that on her way to kill herself she took the time to close the window behind her?

That makes no sense to me at all.

mrsu
07-21-2011, 08:30 PM
Another thought here -- if she jumped off the table, chances are she would kick the table hysterically in instinct. Why is the table directly under the faux balcony? I would expect the table to be tipped over. Just my opinion - I'm no expert on these types of things.

MOO

Mel

Her feet were bound, so maybe that prevented kicking?

Carrington
07-21-2011, 08:32 PM
She sure went to a lot of trouble to kill herself........
IMO

scorekeeper
07-21-2011, 08:36 PM
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

picture 2 - shows the balcony; it's not very wide; there appears to be 2 shrubs and the table below

picture 8 - if that is a table; it's not the one from the courtyard

picture 15 - shows the entryway - i tried to blow it up; it doesn't look like there is a table or chandelier(sp)

if she stood on the table, should have her dna/foot prints

Melanie
07-21-2011, 08:38 PM
She sure went to a lot of trouble to kill herself........
IMO

ermmmm...that's what I'm thinking. I hope LE is reading here!

:seeya:

Mel

mrsu
07-21-2011, 08:41 PM
From this photo (upper right corner)...when comparing the balcony to the other windows, it would appear that there are doors up on the balcony.

ETA: Better link http://www.dndb.info/gallery/18/Fhomes1-2-8.jpg

scorekeeper
07-21-2011, 08:58 PM
From this photo (upper right corner)...when comparing the balcony to the other windows, it would appear that there are doors up on the balcony.

http://www.dndb.info/featured18-1-2.htm

new window extension photo - yes - shows the balcony. looks mostly for decoration.

thanks, mrsu!

sargenet
07-21-2011, 08:59 PM
There are french doors that open on that balcony.

If the brother walked out and saw her hanging it would have taken a heck of a long time to get into the house, up to the room, then cut her down...with the chance that she fall and get more injured..

Also...if he sees her hanging he isn't going to have enough time to find a ladder... so I would think he would grab the nearest table in the courtyard and pull it over to try to get her down. That balcony is pretty high....

The leg on the table could have been broken when he pulled the table over and when he got her down and her weight fell on him etc....

I think someone pushed her body over the balcony....

Quester
07-21-2011, 09:26 PM
I’d like to do a poll to see what our intuition is currently on the RN case independent of the MS case.

I will post 3 postings, please thank the one that fits your intuition best at this point and I will report back tomorrow evening with the counts.

The following will be the postings you can choose from:

1. RN case is a murder case.
2. RN case is a suicide case.
3. RN case is either a murder or suicide case – not sure which yet.

TIA

Quester
07-21-2011, 09:27 PM
1. Please thank this post if you feel right now that the RN case is a murder case.

Quester
07-21-2011, 09:27 PM
2. Please thank this post if you feel right now that the RN case is a suicide case.

Quester
07-21-2011, 09:28 PM
3. Please thank this post if you feel right now that the RN case is either a murder or suicide case – not sure which yet.

x_files
07-21-2011, 09:42 PM
She sure went to a lot of trouble to kill herself........
IMO

Exactly, and that's why I am not buying it.

4Jacy
07-21-2011, 09:44 PM
It's unfair to say that since they have money, LE will call a murder a suicide.



Sorry to say colette, it is not that unusal. Mayors, judges, police can be bought. It's always who you know, and people with that much $$$ know people in very high places. I'm not saying that is what will happen in this case, but it does happen!

Sabrina2011
07-21-2011, 09:44 PM
The Mystery On Coronado Island has just sent Casey Anthony's $1million Interview Value to $5.25

I am now fully engulfed in the new mystery. Casey, you may now shop openly at Walmart and WinDixie.

scorekeeper
07-21-2011, 09:48 PM
The Mystery On Coronado Island has just sent Casey Anthony's $1million Interview Value to $5.25

I am now fully engulfed in the new mystery. Casey, you may now shop openly at Walmart and WinDixie.


:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

IzzyBlanche
07-21-2011, 09:57 PM
Her feet were bound, so maybe that prevented kicking?


IIRC her ankles had bindings on them but were not bound together.

4Jacy
07-21-2011, 10:07 PM
The Mystery On Coronado Island has just sent Casey Anthony's $1million Interview Value to $5.25

I am now fully engulfed in the new mystery. Casey, you may now shop openly at Walmart and WinDixie.

Oh, Sabrina, you are GOOD, you are very, very GOOD. :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

But..but, what about Target??

time
07-21-2011, 10:07 PM
Sorry to say colette, it is not that unusal. Mayors, judges, police can be bought. It's always who you know, and people with that much $$$ know people in very high places. I'm not saying that is what will happen in this case, but it does happen!

I don't think most of it is actually 'buying' them off, but if you are involved in something like this your connections are going to 'not believe it', they are going to try to find any other explanation, they are not going to want to look into your personal life, they don't want retribution later... maybe even more than this, but the list is a start. If your high level connection owes you a favor or just can't fathom you didn't do something, that may just tip a decision one way or the other. There are also other economic reasons - no one wants the real estate in certain neighborhoods to go down, figuratively and literally. But then again, no one wants an unsolved crime in a pricey resort area - on this one though, it would fade away and people would put it down to a suicide. If not, it's not a killer on the loose who will kill again.

4Jacy
07-21-2011, 10:12 PM
I don't think most of it is actually 'buying' them off, but if you are involved in something like this your connections are going to 'not believe it', they are going to try to find any other explanation, they are not going to want to look into your personal life, they don't want retribution later... maybe even more than this, but the list is a start. If your high level connection owes you a favor or just can't fathom you didn't do something, that may just tip a decision one way or the other. There are also other economic reasons - no one wants the real estate in certain neighborhoods to go down, figuratively and literally. But then again, no one wants an unsolved crime in a pricey resort area - on this one though, it would fade away and people would put it down to a suicide. If not, it's not a killer on the loose who will kill again.

Actually, I wasn't just talking about money, JMO

IzzyBlanche
07-21-2011, 10:13 PM
From this photo (upper right corner)...when comparing the balcony to the other windows, it would appear that there are doors up on the balcony.

ETA: Better link http://www.dndb.info/gallery/18/Fhomes1-2-8.jpg


I dunno--whatever is above the balcony looks the same height to me as the windows on the lower level.

That would be some short French doors.

IzzyBlanche
07-21-2011, 10:14 PM
There are french doors that open on that balcony.

If the brother walked out and saw her hanging it would have taken a heck of a long time to get into the house, up to the room, then cut her down...with the chance that she fall and get more injured..

Also...if he sees her hanging he isn't going to have enough time to find a ladder... so I would think he would grab the nearest table in the courtyard and pull it over to try to get her down. That balcony is pretty high....

The leg on the table could have been broken when he pulled the table over and when he got her down and her weight fell on him etc....

I think someone pushed her body over the balcony....

But what did he grab to cut her down WITH, and where did he grab this item from?

I'm not arguing with you, just throwing out a question.

anyoldtime48
07-21-2011, 10:20 PM
from a MSM link.


"There are documentations of incidents throughout the country where people have secured their feet and hands as well to commit suicide, so we have to keep an open mind," San Diego County Sheriff's Department Sgt. Roy Frank said.

The motivation is so they can't change their minds and free themselves.

"Some of the psychologists will tell you once that decision is made, there is an urge of self-preservation, and this is one way to preclude oneself from stopping an attempt to end their life," Coronado Police Chief Louis Scanlon said.

One possible suicide theory is that Zahau might have hung the noose from the balcony, binding her hands and feet before stepping off a table. A table was one of the items taken from the mansion as evidence.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15119133/waiting-for-answers-in-mansion-deaths-mystery

From the photos on the Fox 5 site, clear pictures of the round table directly underneath the balcony. With a broken leg (on the house side of it). In that location it is also smack over the top of the walkway, where one would not normally expect to find a table.

For the sake of decency, I'm not going to post any of those death scene photos here.

I believe either she placed it there to launch herself off, or Adam moved it there to cut her down. Leg may have broken when she jumped off it? Or tried to kick it away (this presumes suicide). Or broke from weight of Adam and/or Rebecca.

Same table with broken leg seen leaving as evidence at the same time as an apparent rolled up rug and a framed picture.

to revise the 6 or 7 step process I listed out fairly early in the Thread 1, that would make suicide possible, even if not necessarily likely...

1) Rebecca ties one end of rope around rails on the balcony. Then drops rest over the edge, with noose already tied.

2) goes outside, now buck naked if she wasn't already in step 1 above.

3) binds her ankles with perhaps excess electrical cord (appears to be orange around them, so my best guess)

4) puts noose over head

5) binds her hands in front of her. Was reported early on with electrical cord. Somehow gets her legs thru her arms so that her arms are now behind her.

6) kicks table away, and possibly it breaks a table leg in the process.

where I have problem is did she sit/stand on the table to maneuver her legs thru arms? Not a heck of a lot of wiggle room up, and unless she was able to stick her head thru a large noose left hanging AFTER getting her arms behind her, she would have had to do that with the noose presumably tightening around her neck already from bending, sitting, whatever.

If said scenario worked that way, her feet wouldn't have been very far off the ground, but still far enough that Adam may have grabbed the table (if already broken) and propped it upright against the house for some support in a hurry to get up high enough to cut her down.

Or broke it when he got up there to cut her down.

Comes down to if you believe she chose to take her own life, but based on what little we know, at this juncture I think it's certainly feasible.

One late night phone call from Jonah to tell her she needed to leave, or that poor Max was never going to come home alive, either one could have been the trigger.

As to comments about the scene showing a lot of "anger" I wonder if the framed painting, photo, or whatever they took had been used to leave a "message" of sorts. I.e. spray painted, slashed, in some way destroyed.

Still curious as to the rug. Perhaps merely she chose to disrobe and leave clothes on it. I doubt they are going to find bloody socks or gloves, but if her clothing was there, it departs to check for DNA, fibers, hairs, whatever else they'd look at to see if another person was there.

heck, bring in Dr Vass and his sniffer.

I do recall something from an earlier LE interview that suggested that room was in some level of disarray, but will have to dig to see if I can find it.

Did Rebecca perhaps trash the bedroom out of anger or great sense of despair (or both), or was there a huge struggle?

Patiently we wait for LE to conclude its investigation.

Sabrina2011
07-21-2011, 10:20 PM
Oh, Sabrina, you are GOOD, you are very, very GOOD. :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

But..but, what about Target??

that just shows you how engulfed I am in the new case.. HOW the heck did I not name Target.. Her home away from home!

To keep on topic, I am trying to enhance and enlarge the un-pixelated photo of RN's death. Very sad

ohiogirl
07-21-2011, 10:21 PM
Maybe it is time to let LE investigate this thoroughly and come to their conclusiions based upon the evidence. jmo

anyoldtime48
07-21-2011, 10:22 PM
Oh, Sabrina, you are GOOD, you are very, very GOOD. :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

But..but, what about Target??

Not so sure she's welcome in Target any longer. Unless they want to smack one of their logos on her back as she exits the store.

Carrington
07-21-2011, 10:30 PM
that just shows you how engulfed I am in the new case.. HOW the heck did I not name Target.. Her home away from home!

To keep on topic, I am trying to enhance and enlarge the un-pixelated photo of RN's death. Very sad

Great, check out the blue scarf (?) for us, Please

defense101
07-21-2011, 10:40 PM
Bringing this post over to reply to it.


cluciano63
poster Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 13,068

Good Lord, her body was left there for most of the day, for media to photograph...? What the heck? No one even covered her?

I can't get over the naked part...I don't even like to get naked for my shower when I am home alone, fearing a burglar might see me

************************************************** ***

While it seems insensitive I know but it is really customary for the body to lay there for hours uncovered while the police are investigating the scene. To cover her body at first before all the evidence is examined could mean they have destroyed or contaminated evidence they may need.

I am sure LE had no clue the helicopter media photographer would be so rude and crude as to show Rebecca's body even if they blurred it.

IMO I think they could have put a tent up so no above shots could be taken, this I find was disgusting.

4Jacy
07-21-2011, 10:41 PM
Maybe it is time to let LE investigate this thoroughly and come to their conclusiions based upon the evidence. jmo

As opposed to what?

oceanblueeyes
07-21-2011, 10:46 PM
I don't think most of it is actually 'buying' them off, but if you are involved in something like this your connections are going to 'not believe it', they are going to try to find any other explanation, they are not going to want to look into your personal life, they don't want retribution later... maybe even more than this, but the list is a start. If your high level connection owes you a favor or just can't fathom you didn't do something, that may just tip a decision one way or the other. There are also other economic reasons - no one wants the real estate in certain neighborhoods to go down, figuratively and literally. But then again, no one wants an unsolved crime in a pricey resort area - on this one though, it would fade away and people would put it down to a suicide. If not, it's not a killer on the loose who will kill again.

I really have more faith in LE than that. It would mean the entire police force would have to be in on it. I find that unrealistic. This isnt about taking care of a speeding ticket and making it go away.

If they determine it was a suicide then IMO it was a suicide. And I don't find that an unreasonable option either. In fact I really lean much more to a tragic suicide than homicide even now.

Lots of rich and powerful people have been arrested and convicted for criminal wrongdoings. Some serving LWOP or on death row.

So just because the home owner has money does not convince me LE would just let whomever is responsible for the homicide (IF there was one) get off.

Carrington
07-21-2011, 10:52 PM
If the 15 detectives they have working this case, conclude suicide what is left to say.
It's not like they are giving up any clues.
I would like to know about the painting.
IMO

Sabrina2011
07-21-2011, 10:54 PM
Great, check out the blue scarf (?) for us, Please

Yes, there is a blue scarf, flowing, laid over the grass extending from her neck, it sort of follows the rope for about 2 feet...as if there was a scarf around her neck also. The bindings are red.

Her hair is long, flowing on the grass, her ankles were reported to have bindings but they were not bound together, however, I must say, the photo with her laid out, they appear to be bound together, her legs are slightly apart at the knees and if she fell naturally or was cut, the legs would seem to me to be flopped and they are together at the ankle.. as if tied at the ankle...

anneinchicago
07-21-2011, 10:55 PM
New thread. Perfect place start posting the facts.

Anyone else with facts, please add to this.

The Players:

Jonah Shacknai. Founder, chairman and CEO of the Medicis Pharmaceutical Corporation, a company that specializes in dermatological products, since 1988. Medicis makes acne treatments Solodyn and Ziana and facial wrinkle treatment Restylane and Dysport, a competitor of Botox. Last year, the company earned $123 million on $700 million in revenue.
Summer home in Coronado, CA. Main residence in Paradise Valley, AZ.

Adam Shacknai. Brother and only sibling of Jonah. Lives in Memphis. Has a connection to a tugboat company (works for? owns?). Staying at one/the only? of the Coronado guesthouses.

Both brothers heavily involved in charitable work involving special needs children

Adam and Jonah were born in Suffern, New York. Parents Gideon and Selma, who died in 1999 of cancer. Selma was an educator and therapist. Gideon Shacknai still lives in Suffern, where an identified woman (caregiver?) answered the phone when he ws called regarding the death of his grandson, Max.

Kimberley Shacknai/James. Met Jonah while working as a pharmaceuticals saleswoman for rival Johnson & Johnson. Married Jonah in April of 93 in Bel Air, Ca. Divorced Jonah in 1993. In his divorce filing with Kimberly Shacknai, he filed a tax return that showed his income in 1998 at $16,991,304. Marriage troubled from the start. Now married to Ian C. James. Lives in Paradise Valley and Salem, South Carolina. Kimberly A. Shacknai Revocable Trust.

(Note to those sleuthing her name, there seems to be two in Arizona)

Kimberley and Jonah have two children, G (a girl) and E (a boy) which were the subject of a custody dispute.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jul/16/spreckels-mansion-owner-described-go-getter/?ap


Dina Romano, a child psychologist, married Jonah as his second wife. Divorce records sealed, but the mansion in Arizona is supposed to be hers (see above link). Divorced in 2008. Divorce was acrimonious.


Speculation:

Neighbor is quoted as saying, in regards to Jonah's attempt to renovate the Spreckles' Mansion after getting a tax break for promising not to do so,


“I thought he was as arrogant as hell,” said Jeff Alison, a neighbor who attended City Hall meetings on the proposed renovations. “It was his way or the highway.”

and I wonder how much of this arrogance had to do with his two divorces.

Rebecca Zahru/Nalepa. Girlfriend and possible fiancee of Jonah. Burmese; European upbringing. Previously married to Neil Nalepa. Their divorce was finalized in February. Began work in April 2008 in Scottsdale, Az. as a certified ophthalmic technician at Horizon Eye Specialists & Lasik Center.

Below is a link to the petition to restore her maiden name of Zahru

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Family%20Court/052011/m4731581.pdf

Rebecca is also known as-


Rebecca Hniang Cin Mawi, 32, is the second eldest daughter among six siblings of Pu Khua Hnin Thang and Pi Zung Tin Par from Phunte village of Falam Township in Chin State, Burma. Source: Chinland Guardian

http://www.zomidaily.com/news/world-english/3463


the family plans to hold her funeral service in Missouri State, where her parents live

Speculation: I wonder if this means her parents were refugees?

Mary Zahau-Loehner, Rebecca's sister, lives in St. Joseph, Missouri. Last spoke to Rebecca Tuesday night. Married to Douglas. P. Loehner. Married June 2010. He is a policeman.

Can't find anything on Neil Nalepa.

If anyone reads Burmese?, Chinworld (see above link regarding Rebecca's parents) seems to have a lot of info on Rebecca.

Unrelated note:


Coronado draws many part-time residents from Arizona. They are known as "Zonies" - people who escape the Grand Canyon State's oppressive heat for California's ocean breezes.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pnabnzzpaM4J:www.countybankdel.com/dynamic_content_view.asp%3FcontentType%3Duf_US_New s-161444126.html+Kimberley+Shacknai&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

Sabrina2011
07-21-2011, 10:57 PM
Yes, there is a blue scarf, flowing, laid over the grass extending from her neck, it sort of follows the rope for about 2 feet...as if there was a scarf around her neck also. The bindings are red.

Her hair is long, flowing on the grass, her ankles were reported to have bindings but they were not bound together, however, I must say, the photo with her laid out, they appear to be bound together, her legs are slightly apart at the knees and if she fell naturally or was cut, the legs would seem to me to be flopped and they are together at the ankle.. as if tied at the ankle...

she is laying on her left hip, sort of on her side, her face is looking straight up at the sky

colette
07-21-2011, 11:01 PM
I wonder about the photo too, I wonder if it was a photo of her and Jonah. Maybe she X'ed herself out of the picture or something.

anneinchicago
07-21-2011, 11:04 PM
New thread. Perfect place to start over.

Okay, I'm confused and so, I'm assuming, there must be others here just as confused.

Anyone else with facts, please add to this.

The Players:

Jonah Shacknai. Founder, chairman and CEO of the Medicis Pharmaceutical Corporation, a company that specializes in dermatological products, since 1988. Medicis makes acne treatments Solodyn and Ziana and facial wrinkle treatment Restylane and Dysport, a competitor of Botox. Last year, the company earned $123 million on $700 million in revenue.
Summer home in Coronado, CA. Main residence in Paradise Valley, AZ.

Adam Shacknai. Brother and only sibling of Jonah. Lives in Memphis. Has a connection to a tugboat company (works for? owns?). Staying at one/the only? of the Coronado guesthouses.

Both brothers heavily involved in charitable work involving special needs children

Adam and Jonah were born in Suffern, New York. Parents Gideon and Selma, who died in 1999 of cancer. Selma was an educator and therapist. Gideon Shacknai still lives in Suffern, where an identified answered the phone when he ws called regarding the death of his grandson, Max.

Kimberley Shacknai/James. Met Jonah while working as a pharmaceuticals saleswoman for rival Johnson & Johnson. Married Jonah in April of 93 in Bel Air, Ca. Divorced Jonah in 1993. In his divorce filing with Kimberly Shacknai, he filed a tax return that showed his income in 1998 at $16,991,304. Marriage troubled from the start. Now married to Ian C. James. Lives in Paradise Valley and Salem, South Carolina. Kimberly A. Shacknai Revocable Trust.

(Note to those sleuthing her name, there seems to be two in Arizona)

Kimberley and Jonah have two children, G (a girl) and E (a boy) which were the subject of a custody dispute.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jul/16/spreckels-mansion-owner-described-go-getter/?ap


Dina Romano, a child psychologist, married Jonah as his second wife. Divorce records sealed, but the mansion in Arizona is supposed to be hers (see above link). Divorced in 2008. Divorce was acrimonious.


Speculation:

Neighbor is quoted as saying, in regards to Jonah's attempt to renovate the Spreckles' Mansion after getting a tax break for promising not to do so,


“I thought he was as arrogant as hell,” said Jeff Alison, a neighbor who attended City Hall meetings on the proposed renovations. “It was his way or the highway.”

and I wonder how much of this arrogance had to do with his two divorces.

Rebecca Zahru/Nalepa. Girlfriend and possible fiancee of Jonah. Burmese; European upbringing. Previously married to Neil Nalepa. Their divorce was finalized in February. Began work in April 2008 in Scottsdale, Az. as a certified ophthalmic technician at Horizon Eye Specialists & Lasik Center.

Below is a link to the petition to restore her maiden name of Zahru

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Family%20Court/052011/m4731581.pdf

Rebecca is also known as-


Rebecca Hniang Cin Mawi, 32, is the second eldest daughter among six siblings of Pu Khua Hnin Thang and Pi Zung Tin Par from Phunte village of Falam Township in Chin State, Burma. Source: Chinland Guardian

http://www.zomidaily.com/news/world-english/3463


the family plans to hold her funeral service in Missouri State, where her parents live

Speculation: I wonder if this means her parents were refugees?

Mary Zahau-Loehner, Rebecca's sister, lives in St. Joseph, Missouri. Last spoke to Rebecca Tuesday night. Married to Douglas. P. Loehner. Married June 2010. He is a policeman.

Can't find anything on Neil Nalepa.

If anyone reads Burmese?, Chinworld (see above linmk regarding Rebecca's parents) seems to have a lot of info on Rebecca.

Unrelated note:


Coronado draws many part-time residents from Arizona. They are known as "Zonies" - people who escape the Grand Canyon State's oppressive heat for California's ocean breezes.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pnabnzzpaM4J:www.countybankdel.com/dynamic_content_view.asp%3FcontentType%3Duf_US_New s-161444126.html+Kimberley+Shacknai&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

anyoldtime48
07-21-2011, 11:07 PM
Nice clear exterior shot of the bitty balcony and French doors to it.

Melanie
07-21-2011, 11:08 PM
Her feet were bound, so maybe that prevented kicking?

But her feet were not bound together -- you can see in the photo there is a bit of distance between both feet, giving her plenty of wiggle room. If she jumped off that table, she could have very easily kicked it with force - IMHO.

MOO

Mel

anyoldtime48
07-21-2011, 11:09 PM
I wonder about the photo too, I wonder if it was a photo of her and Jonah. Maybe she X'ed herself out of the picture or something.

Or sliced and diced him.

Melanie
07-21-2011, 11:12 PM
The Mystery On Coronado Island has just sent Casey Anthony's $1million Interview Value to $5.25

I am now fully engulfed in the new mystery. Casey, you may now shop openly at Walmart and WinDixie.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Casey Anthony who?

:truce:

You are spot on! Move along Ms. Amferny - we have other cases to tend to.

Mel

defense101
07-21-2011, 11:13 PM
Sorry to say colette, it is not that unusal. Mayors, judges, police can be bought. It's always who you know, and people with that much $$$ know people in very high places. I'm not saying that is what will happen in this case, but it does happen! I don't know if it's so much that they are bought, but LE tend to step lightly where people with money are involved. IMO if this happened in a cheap apartment building, I highly doubt that suicide would be a consideration.

Sabrina2011
07-21-2011, 11:15 PM
But her feet were not bound together -- you can see in the photo there is a bit of distance between both feet, giving her plenty of wiggle room. If she jumped off that table, she could have very easily kicked it with force - IMHO.

MOO

Mel

what photo are you looking at. Mine shows feet together! (albeit, loosely, like sloppy wrapped binding around them)

Melanie
07-21-2011, 11:21 PM
what photo are you looking at. Mine shows feet together! (albeit, loosely, like sloppy wrapped binding around them)

The photo I posted upthread. You're right - they are tied, somewhat, but loosely and sloppy -- leaving wiggle room. That's what I meant in that I feel she could still kick around. I would think this would be a natural survival instinct. I can only speculate that she would have the means to kick the table over.

MOO

Mel

Sabrina2011
07-21-2011, 11:23 PM
The photo I posted upthread. You're right - they are tied, somewhat, but loosely and sloppy -- leaving wiggle room. That's what I meant in that I feel she could still kick around. I would think this would be a natural survival instinct. I can only speculate that she would have the means to kick the table over.

MOO

Mel

OK yes! i wonder why the blue scarf. Very odd, the whole thing. Was that 13 yr old her sister or Max's sister?

And I definitely think the brother carried or dragged her from the exact landing spot which was maybe a couple feet from the house, that is almost a Faux balcony. HE placed her carefully on the grass (my opinion)

Melanie
07-21-2011, 11:27 PM
Nice clear exterior shot of the bitty balcony and French doors to it.

Thank you for that picture.

In looking closely at the landscape, one would not put a picnic table there normally (it just doesn't fit in). Especially with the large dining table to the left of the picture (outdoor kitchen area).

So Rebecca would have to move the table there - right? Unless AS did so to cut her down. But that still leaves the pesky question of how she hanged herself? Did she throw herself off that little bitty balcony, or did she find a table and move it herself -- in the nude!

Knowing AS was a short walk away in the guest house, would she do that? Or would she hop out on that tiny patio and heave herself over the railing?

What about the picture and the carpet?

This is so frustrating!

Mel

Carrington
07-21-2011, 11:28 PM
The blue scarf must have had a special meaning to her/them ????
Sounds like it is long enough to wear as a cover-up/drape, sexy style.
Fabric: guessing silk
IMO

Sabrina2011
07-21-2011, 11:35 PM
The blue scarf must have had a special meaning to her/them ????
Sounds like it is long enough to wear as a cover-up/drape, sexy style.
Fabric: guessing silk
IMO

Yes that is exactly the impression I get when i see it in the photo. She was wearing it, as if to dress up. It does not seem to be a method to have harmed her.

And in looking once more, that white round table does not fit there, I agree, he may have dragged that over to try to stand on it and get her down. It looks moved there but for seemingly innocent reasons

Quester
07-21-2011, 11:48 PM
@anyoldtime48

WOW! That was some post!! Long Post #44

But I did miss the "check"'s from your previous step-by-step list!

I’m stuck on your step #5, with ankles bound then noose on then wrists bound, I don't see how one can slip bound feet through bound wrists to arrive with hands in back and have noose rope be long enough to hang (and not feet dragging on ground) once jumping off 4' table. I think one would have to be sitting to accomplish the slip through. [I tried and at least I would have to be sitting.]

What if one were to bind ankles, stand straight, tie noose rope at this height, secure one wrist, move both wrists behind back and secure other wrist. In this way the noose would be guaranteed to be high enough to keep feet off the ground after jumping.

[however: this wrist tying method would be extremely difficult if using the contractor style thick orange extension cord. Are there orange electrical cords that are more house electrical cord thickness and thus more pliable?]

If one was serious about this hanging thing, avoiding having to make multiple attempts due to noose rope being too long would have to be a high priority. <snark>

Sabrina2011
07-21-2011, 11:58 PM
@anyoldtime48

WOW! That was some post!! Long Post #44

But I did miss the "check"'s from your previous step-by-step list!

I’m stuck on your step #5, with ankles bound then noose on then wrists bound, I don't see how one can slip bound feet through bound wrists to arrive with hands in back and have noose rope be long enough to hang (and not feet dragging on ground) once jumping off 4' table. I think one would have to be sitting to accomplish the slip through. [I tried and at least I would have to be sitting.]

What if one were to bind ankles, stand straight, tie noose rope at this height, secure one wrist, move both wrists behind back and secure other wrist. In this way the noose would be guaranteed to be high enough to keep feet off the ground after jumping.

[however: this wrist tying method would be extremely difficult if using the contractor style thick orange extension cord. Are there orange electrical cords that are more house electrical cord thickness and thus more pliable?]

If one was serious about this hanging thing, avoiding having to make multiple attempts due to noose rope being too long would have to be a high priority. <snark>

Noose first then bend over and wrap the electrical cord around your feet (it was sloppy and wrapped and wrapped like 20 times? did not really appeared tied, but could have been loosely. So now you have a noose around your neck and your feet are bound. I would like to see her hands and how they are tied, that is key for me, I can get step one and two...but how tight and how complex are her hands tied. IF you already got the knot started, i can slip my hands through the loop and then lean on one end of the tie, and with my hand i was able to tightly bind my hands with no problem.

then just go belly first face down over the balcony. Done. I'm dead

but why that way and where are my clothes...

JoeFromLB
07-22-2011, 12:06 AM
Yes that is exactly the impression I get when i see it in the photo. She was wearing it, as if to dress up. It does not seem to be a method to have harmed her.

And in looking once more, that white round table does not fit there, I agree, he may have dragged that over to try to stand on it and get her down. It looks moved there but for seemingly innocent reasons

That's right. Since LE has not released any details, we don't know if she jumped off that table, or if he found her hanging and pulled that table over to stand on while getting her down. At this point, we just don't know.

Quester
07-22-2011, 12:06 AM
Noose first then bend over and wrap the electrical cord around your feet (it was sloppy and wrapped and wrapped like 20 times? did not really appeared tied, but could have been loosely. So now you have a noose around your neck and your feet are bound. I would like to see her hands and how they are tied, that is key for me, I can get step one and two...but how tight and how complex are her hands tied. IF you already got the knot started, i can slip my hands through the loop and then lean on one end of the tie, and with my hand i was able to tightly bind my hands with no problem.

then just go belly first face down over the balcony. Done. I'm dead

but why that way and where are my clothes...

Yes - off the balcony, as you're suggesting, is the other option and possible.

And Yes - where are the clothes - so strange!

jstwondering
07-22-2011, 12:08 AM
Just a couple of things to think about...

Someone asked up thread how far away the airport is. Not far at all. 15 minutes. This is the international airport, not a private airport.

Also, you need to go over the Coronado Bridge to get to San Diego. It is a very beautiful ride, but people have been known to jump off it to commit suicide. I'm still bothered about the nudity and the bounded hands and feet, not to mention the lack of suicide note. Jmo

Sabrina2011
07-22-2011, 12:11 AM
Yes - off the balcony, as you're suggesting, is the other option and possible.

And Yes - where are the clothes - so strange!

Ohhhhhh i see, maybe she stood on the table and just stepped off so she did not plumit from the 2nd floor. Which is why the table is in the photos. I supposed possible, I still think balcony, but I also think Balcony could have broken, but it didn't.

I want to step back in time before Max fell and ring the door bell and change the path of what was about to happen. So it would not have happened

Im bothered by the lack of note also

Quester
07-22-2011, 12:14 AM
7/21 Suicide Expert Believes Rebecca Zahau Death ‘Is Very Suspicious’

[former SD homicide detective] Carlson told RadarOnline.com: "I think the whole thing is very suspicious - it just does not seem right to me.

"I investigated hundreds of suicides in my career but never anything like this one - it would be very unusual for a woman to take her life in such a spectacular way naked.

"Usually when people commit suicide they go to a very quiet place because they are so sad - the detectives examining the case will be looking at the type of knot that was used to bind her.

"She was a physically fit person, so, it would have been possible for her to perform this act but I never came across any similar case in my 35 years career."

He added: "I know from past history of suicide cases that somebody can be revived between four to eight minutes after such an incident so maybe he thought she could be saved and that is why he cut her down.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/07/rebecca-zahau-suicide-suspicious-detective-expert-interview-rick-carlson

Sabrina2011
07-22-2011, 12:21 AM
was there a party the night before she was found, which was held while Max was in the hosp??

Nor is it known exactly what Zahau Nalepa and Jonah’s brother Adam were doing Tuesday night through Wednesday morning. Neighbors reported hearing a loud party at the house which Zahau Nalepa had been planning since the weekend. Adam found her body the following morning.
http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-business/death-and-the-ceo-spouse-abuse-records-dont-explain-timeline-at-shacknais-house/9140

LadyL
07-22-2011, 12:24 AM
I don't believe Max's 'fall' and subsequent death was accidental and I don't believe Rebecca committed suicide either.

These deaths are absolutely connected IMO and husband is in it up to his eyeballs AFAIC.

defense101
07-22-2011, 12:26 AM
His mother, Jonah Shacknai's ex-wife Dina, has been identified by detectives as a witness in Zahau's death.
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/all-eyes-have-turned-to-coronado

Quester
07-22-2011, 12:30 AM
I don't believe Max's 'fall' and subsequent death was accidental and I don't believe Rebecca committed suicide either.

These deaths are absolutely connected IMO and husband is in it up to his eyeballs AFAIC.

What's your theory on MS' "fall"/death? TIA

mrsu
07-22-2011, 12:57 AM
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend?redirected=true

2 things from this article:


Zahau's brother-in-law Doug Loehner issued a statement Thursday.

"Jonah is a stand-up guy. He was very devoted to Rebecca. She treated his kids as her own," Loehner said.




Wednesday evening, former District Attorney and current defense attorney Paul Pfingst showed up at the crime scene. Pfingst confirmed to News 8 that he had been hired to represent someone connected with this case, although he would not specify who his client is.

"I'm not Jonah's lawyer. I've never spoke with him. As far as I know he's not a suspect of any type," Pfingst said in a statement.

jjenny
07-22-2011, 01:19 AM
was there a party the night before she was found, which was held while Max was in the hosp??

Nor is it known exactly what Zahau Nalepa and Jonah’s brother Adam were doing Tuesday night through Wednesday morning. Neighbors reported hearing a loud party at the house which Zahau Nalepa had been planning since the weekend. Adam found her body the following morning.
http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-business/death-and-the-ceo-spouse-abuse-records-dont-explain-timeline-at-shacknais-house/9140

There have been reports that it might have not been a party but a loud music instead.
Well why was there loud music (considering the child's accident)? Did somebody not want others to hear something?

MsFacetious
07-22-2011, 01:22 AM
Also from your posted link:

Adam is a "prime witness" who has been "very cooperative," Frank says, adding that he has since left California.

Jonah has left and gone back to Arizona.
I would not expect Adam to have stayed in California if his brother left.

Lovejac
07-22-2011, 01:27 AM
His mother, Jonah Shacknai's ex-wife Dina, has been identified by detectives as a witness in Zahau's death.
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/all-eyes-have-turned-to-coronado

Oh yeah. This was discussed on the 1st thread.

The author of that article clarifies below in the comments.


roger
7:27am on Monday, July 18, 2011

Dina is a witness to Zahau's death....is that a missprint? How could that be given Zahau and Adam were suppoedly only ones at mansion property that Tues/night -Wed morning.

Log in to reply Jennifer Vigil
9:34am on Monday, July 18, 2011

Detectives have labeled Dina a witness, yes, under questioning from the media, to distinguish between witness and “person of interest” or suspect. They have also labeled Jonah and Adam as witnesses. That doesn't necessarily mean the people talking to investigators were present at the scene. Only Adam and Rebecca have been named as having been on the property that night. Thanks for your question.

Lovejac
07-22-2011, 01:29 AM
I don't believe Max's 'fall' and subsequent death was accidental and I don't believe Rebecca committed suicide either.

These deaths are absolutely connected IMO and husband is in it up to his eyeballs AFAIC.

You have me intrigued! Please share.

JoeFromLB
07-22-2011, 01:31 AM
We have dug up everything we can about this family, let's let LE finish it off, jmo.

It shouldn't be long before they come to some conclusions and announce them. They're rushing the toxicology tests, as several news sources have reported.

Carrington
07-22-2011, 01:33 AM
Whatever happened to the "Don't Leave Town" line.
IMO

4Jacy
07-22-2011, 02:25 AM
i don't believe max's 'fall' and subsequent death was accidental and i don't believe rebecca committed suicide either.

These deaths are absolutely connected imo and husband is in it up to his eyeballs afaic.

rut roe

Carpe Pacem
07-22-2011, 02:26 AM
If this woman truly loved her boyfriend, and was miserable and guilt-stricken for having been in charge when his little boy had his fatal accident, I can't see her wanting to add to this man's trauma/emotional pain by taking her life in such a very bizarre, dramatic way.

Sorry for the run-on sentence.

4Jacy
07-22-2011, 02:30 AM
We have dug up everything we can about this family, let's let LE finish it off, jmo.

Why? I don't believe we have dug up everything we can. Let LE finish if off? Surely you jest. Oh, MO

MsFacetious
07-22-2011, 03:39 AM
Whatever happened to the "Don't Leave Town" line.
IMO

This is a summer house. Not his full time residence.
Why stay in your summer house when the family you vacation with is all dead?

I would not go back to the house where both my son and the person I planned to marry had just died.

There also was Max's funeral... which wasn't to be held there. I don't think anyone expected Max's parents to remain there and not plan or attend his funeral.

Rebecca's funeral as well if he was assisting with or attending that (I assume he was, given the way Rebecca's brother in law talked highly of him) was not going to be held there either.

At this point I see no reason to think he is involved in either death. The guy can get back on a plane at anytime and come back if needed. I see no reason he needs to remain at the scene where all of this occurred. That would just be torture.

Bonepile
07-22-2011, 05:17 AM
In Chinese culture the color "blue" symbolizes Immortality. Dark blue is a color worn at funerals and in the presence of death.

Could be the meaning of the blue scarf she had around her neck.

anyoldtime48
07-22-2011, 05:19 AM
@anyoldtime48

WOW! That was some post!! Long Post #44

But I did miss the "check"'s from your previous step-by-step list!

I’m stuck on your step #5, with ankles bound then noose on then wrists bound, I don't see how one can slip bound feet through bound wrists to arrive with hands in back and have noose rope be long enough to hang (and not feet dragging on ground) once jumping off 4' table. I think one would have to be sitting to accomplish the slip through. [I tried and at least I would have to be sitting.]

What if one were to bind ankles, stand straight, tie noose rope at this height, secure one wrist, move both wrists behind back and secure other wrist. In this way the noose would be guaranteed to be high enough to keep feet off the ground after jumping.

[however: this wrist tying method would be extremely difficult if using the contractor style thick orange extension cord. Are there orange electrical cords that are more house electrical cord thickness and thus more pliable?]

If one was serious about this hanging thing, avoiding having to make multiple attempts due to noose rope being too long would have to be a high priority. <snark>

Sorry, I just keep going (and going, and going) while thinking thru it.

Only real difference from my original list is not having to heave yourself over the balcony railing (reportedly about 3-ft high) after securing feet and wrists, but rather kicking away a table.

I can't see any way she'd have been able to tie up her wrists behind her back if it was indeed electrical cord. Other way (in front, then running legs thru arms) is easy if fit and thin and limber, which she apparently was on all 3 counts.

But doing that while standing on a table? Far more problematic for me to wrap my head around. Would have to be one sturdy table, and straddling the walkway I can't see it sitting there nice and stable.

Tough to re-enact and you can be darn sure I'm not going to get rope, haul out a long extension cord, put a table under my balcony, and give it a go to see if it would work. Least of all get naked before trying.

Something is missing here in terms of what we know about bindings and whatever was used for noose/rope.

As far as the apparent blue scarf...live fast, die young, and leave a pretty corpse comes to mind. Could have been as simple as to not leave ugly rope burn, or the mistaken belief it would reduce the pain. Again, presuming the suicide theory.

anyoldtime48
07-22-2011, 05:26 AM
Jonah has left and gone back to Arizona.
I would not expect Adam to have stayed in California if his brother left.

Especially as he has a job to get back to so he can cover rent on his apartment. Guys lives and works in Memphis, and best I can surmise, doesn't happen to own a summer home. Tugboat is that boy's "getaway."

anyoldtime48
07-22-2011, 05:48 AM
It shouldn't be long before they come to some conclusions and announce them. They're rushing the toxicology tests, as several news sources have reported.

Would be loverly, but still sounds like all the rest of the forensics are going to take a good long while.

Story posted Thursday evening:


It could take another several weeks before investigators get answers as to what really happened inside the Spreckels mansion that left a boy gravely injured near the foot of the vacation home’s grand staircase and his father’s girlfriend hanging from second-floor balcony two days later, authorities said Thursday.

Investigators from the Sheriff’s Department and Coronado police are awaiting the results of forensic tests to determine how 6-year-old Max Shacknai and 32-year-old Rebecca Zahau died — and if either death was the result of a criminal act.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jul/21/answers-spreckels-mansion-deaths-could-take-weeks/

Bonepile
07-22-2011, 06:18 AM
In case this has not been posted before Douglas Loehner who is Rebecca's brother-in-law was recognized this week for 10 years of service to the St. Joseph Missouri Police Department. The article does not indicate in which capacity he was honored. Hopefully this will help with the retrieval of information moving forward.

http://www.stjoepd.info/awards.cfm

BrownRice
07-22-2011, 06:53 AM
If this woman truly loved her boyfriend, and was miserable and guilt-stricken for having been in charge when his little boy had his fatal accident, I can't see her wanting to add to this man's trauma/emotional pain by taking her life in such a very bizarre, dramatic way.

Sorry for the run-on sentence.

But you're thinking as a person who is not involved in this tragic accident and not devastated nor depressed. Her taking her life makes sense to me. I would assume if you are so far gone that you really want to commit suicide, you are not particularly concerned about the emotional aftermath of your loved ones.

She loved this little boy so much and feels responsible for his death (even though she probably wasn't). Knowing Max was the apple of his daddy's eye, she is so consumed with grief and feels she owes it to the world to end her life because she is such a horrible person. FYI - this is a theory. I do not believe she was a horrible person at all - just trying to get into her thought process if it was suicide.

~n/t~
07-22-2011, 07:17 AM
But you're thinking as a person who is not involved in this tragic accident and not devastated nor depressed. Her taking her life makes sense to me. I would assume if you are so far gone that you really want to commit suicide, you are not particularly concerned about the emotional aftermath of your loved ones.

She loved this little boy so much and feels responsible for his death (even though she probably wasn't). Knowing Max was the apple of his daddy's eye, she is so consumed with grief and feels she owes it to the world to end her life because she is such a horrible person. FYI - this is a theory. I do not believe she was a horrible person at all - just trying to get into her thought process if it was suicide.

I agree that it is very plausible that it is suicide. However, I'm having difficulty understanding her choice or method. Why such an elaborate and exposed way? Her fiancé just lost his son to a tragic "accident", IDK, it just seems selfish in a way having to do this to him in such a way that it would pain him even more...at his mansion, hanging, naked. I'm having a hard time expressing what I mean in words but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

In no way am I saying any method of suicide is less painful to loved ones left behind but I think in this case, it's very suspicious.

BrownRice
07-22-2011, 07:54 AM
I agree that it is very plausible that it is suicide. However, I'm having difficulty understanding her choice or method. Why such an elaborate and exposed way? Her fiancé just lost his son to a tragic "accident", IDK, it just seems selfish in a way having to do this to him in such a way that it would pain him even more...at his mansion, hanging, naked. I'm having a hard time expressing what I mean in words but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

In no way am I saying any method of suicide is less painful to loved ones left behind but I think in this case, it's very suspicious.

Oh yea, I agree this is bizarre and parts don't make sense. Like I said earlier in another post, she could have easily just gone over to the bridge to commit suicide. It would have been a lot quicker than what she did (if she did it). But, if she did commit suicide, I don't think she would have have thought too much about the pain she was causing (not because she was being selfish, but because she was so despondent).

I guess I am in the minority when it comes to suicide. I don't think it's a selfish act because I think when someone does it they are not thinking clearly - they are focused on one thing only - ending their pain. They don't have the ability in that moment to focus on the whole picture. It's just sad.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 08:22 AM
she is laying on her left hip, sort of on her side, her face is looking straight up at the sky

Dont you think when Adam found her once he got her down he placed her on her back with her face straight up?

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 08:31 AM
I agree that it is very plausible that it is suicide. However, I'm having difficulty understanding her choice or method. Why such an elaborate and exposed way? Her fiancé just lost his son to a tragic "accident", IDK, it just seems selfish in a way having to do this to him in such a way that it would pain him even more...at his mansion, hanging, naked. I'm having a hard time expressing what I mean in words but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

In no way am I saying any method of suicide is less painful to loved ones left behind but I think in this case, it's very suspicious.

I am not sure they intentionally do it to be selfish although it does destroy their loved ones and leaves them trying to figure out 'why' and really most of the time it remains a mystery unless there is a record history of depression. I truly think their full motive is to stop the pain they feel. They may even believe that those who love them will be better off without them.

I suppose some suicides are elaborate because the person realizes this will be the last thing they will organize and carry through.

With my daughter's friend it would have been far easier and much more simple for her to just overdose herself on the prescription meds in her own home but she chose for whatever reason (known only to her) to hang herself instead.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 08:42 AM
But you're thinking as a person who is not involved in this tragic accident and not devastated nor depressed. Her taking her life makes sense to me. I would assume if you are so far gone that you really want to commit suicide, you are not particularly concerned about the emotional aftermath of your loved ones.

She loved this little boy so much and feels responsible for his death (even though she probably wasn't). Knowing Max was the apple of his daddy's eye, she is so consumed with grief and feels she owes it to the world to end her life because she is such a horrible person. FYI - this is a theory. I do not believe she was a horrible person at all - just trying to get into her thought process if it was suicide.

To me in the end it shows Rebecca was a wonderful person with a lot of love in her heart and she gave that love to Jonah and his children. That is why her pain was so deep. That is why Max's death profoundly affected her. I know how deep love can be for children that are not my own biological children. She probably thought Jonah could never look into her eyes again the same way knowing she was the adult there when Max was gravely hurt.

We don't know if he may have had conversations with her after Max got hurt and then died. He would be struggling for answers too and may have said to her 'Rebecca how could this happen..where were you?"

While I am not a 100% sure it was a suicide ..I can also understand if it was.
She had to be reeling with pain and regret.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 08:45 AM
Whatever happened to the "Don't Leave Town" line.
IMO

They only do that if they are thinking someone is a POI or suspect.

IMO

jstwondering
07-22-2011, 09:59 AM
Whatever happened to the "Don't Leave Town" line.
IMO

I'm in agreement with you on this. Remember in the Ramsey case when Jon Benet's half siblings were immediately flown out of town on private jet to upper Michigan. I never thought they properly questioned them.

justbetweenus
07-22-2011, 10:09 AM
I don't believe Max's 'fall' and subsequent death was accidental and I don't believe Rebecca committed suicide either.

These deaths are absolutely connected IMO and husband is in it up to his eyeballs AFAIC.

IF her death is a homicide, I'm thinking the answers might be found from the ex wife side.

Just a thought....the ex is very grief strickened and angry, and perhaps blames Rebecca for her sons death (although he wasn't taken off life support at the time, she likely knew he would be) It was reported JS started dating Rebecca shortly after he seperated from ex, but I wonder if he was seeing her before, and the reason for the seperation? If so, the ex might still feel bitter, thinking you took my husband from me and now my son.

If she was involved I don't think she did it herself. jmo

cluciano63
07-22-2011, 10:11 AM
Somehow this does not seem like a quickly-planned murder in the heat of passion, i.e. grief over the little boy's injury and death. This was way to intricate, some kind of "message" killing, if indeed a murder...

AnaTeresa
07-22-2011, 10:17 AM
You know which case this reminds me of? Jon Benet Ramsey. We've got the weird circumstances in the house, the possibly comprised scene, the shuffling of the major players out of state very quickly after the incident occurred.

Hinky, hinky.

sargenet
07-22-2011, 10:22 AM
I apologize if this is wrong to think or post....

I was very curious as to why they took out a rolled up rug. I know a number of people have commented about the body and rigor motis etc and said she may have passed away some time before she was found...

I am also puzzled about the ties on her legs and also what was used to tie up her wrists. Electrical cord is hard to use and tie(I hate to roll ours up when doing yard work)...but I can see it being used as the long rope her body was hung with. But what about the other bindings? What were they??

I wonder if someone tied her up in the room before she was hung. Hence the straps tied to her leg. And I wonder if she was dead before she was hung.

Here is the part I am not sure I should post. I had thought I had read that people can lose control of their bodily functions upon death, especially a violent death. That if she hung herself, then there would be a chance that there would be signs there in the courtyard that she lost control of her bodily functions...

But if she was killed prior to hanging (especially if someone choked her) then those forensics would be in the room that this happened. Like maybe on a rug...

Sorry.. I do not mean to be gross. I am just as puzzled as everyone else. Just when I think "murder" I also hear about other things (like blue scarf) that are a sign of grief etc....

kljohnson0458
07-22-2011, 10:53 AM
I agree Sargenet. I do not for one minute believe this was a suicide and as stated on TV this morning, this case will be all about forensics. I also hope they check as to whether or not she could have been raped prior to death as well. A poster said yesterday that if the brother's DNA is on her, he can use the excuse that he cut her down. I am very suspicious of the brother and starting to wonder even about the ex-wife.

Quester
07-22-2011, 10:55 AM
... snipped ...

Tough to re-enact and you can be darn sure I'm not going to get rope, haul out a long extension cord, put a table under my balcony, and give it a go to see if it would work. Least of all get naked before trying.


:floorlaugh:

Thanks anyoldtime48!

Please - no physical re-enactments!

Sabrina2011
07-22-2011, 11:03 AM
the "bodily function" thing can happen as mentioned, however if you have not eaten lately, or had a lot of fluids, then it won't.

I can imagine with the grief over Max, maybe she was not hungry, or had not consumed much of anyone over the 2 days. This would account for no bodily fluids (If in fact there were none, there might have been but we have not heard that)

annalia
07-22-2011, 11:06 AM
I am having too hard a time wrapping my head around this being a suicide.

I do understand that it can be done but why would she need to bind her legs and hands, if she wanted to commit suicide it would be much easier to just jump off the balcony. Once she jumped there was no more she could do, she wouldn't be able to get herself down. Also, being naked doesn't seem right, displaying herself in public like that.

I have a family member that committed suicide, but it was after years and years of battling demons and depression. It's the last resort, this seems too quick, the poor little boy had not even been pronounced dead yet.

Just seems too much like a homicide.

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 11:11 AM
Ok I've got to weigh in here. I've been following (although not in depth) and I've seen all the pictures.

Here's my thought - any and all comments would be appreciated.

Go back and look at the crime scene. Where she is on the ground with the table on the walkway.

IF he cut her down - she would have fallen STRAIGHT DOWN. Straight down would have put her on the walkway or perhaps even hitting the table on the way down.

How in the hello did she get into the grass? Did Adam move her to the grass and possibly start CPR - if so, then why didn't he remove the noose?

Unless there was a freak windstorm at the moment he cut her down there is no way she would have fallen at such an angle to end up in that grass. NO WAY! It doesn't fit.

Comments?

kljohnson0458
07-22-2011, 11:15 AM
Ok I've got to weigh in here. I've been following (although not in depth) and I've seen all the pictures.

Here's my thought - any and all comments would be appreciated.

Go back and look at the crime scene. Where she is on the ground with the table on the walkway.

IF he cut her down - she would have fallen STRAIGHT DOWN. Straight down would have put her on the walkway or perhaps even hitting the table on the way down.

How in the hello did she get into the grass? Did Adam move her to the grass and possibly start CPR - if so, then why didn't he remove the noose?

Unless there was a freak windstorm at the moment he cut her down there is no way she would have fallen at such an angle to end up in that grass. NO WAY! It doesn't fit.

Comments?

:applause: I agree wholeheartedly. I don't believe she committed suicide at all. I think that explains why my hinky meter goes off where the brother is concerned.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 11:16 AM
Somehow this does not seem like a quickly-planned murder in the heat of passion, i.e. grief over the little boy's injury and death. This was way to intricate, some kind of "message" killing, if indeed a murder...

Some suicides are often planned and are very creative with intricate details.

Depends on the person committing suicide.

Imo, it does show a woman in much pain that couldn't endure it anymore. She knew her life would never be the same again. Imo, that is why she made sure the dog was taken care of beforehand.

It shows a woman who deeply cared and deeply grieved imo.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 11:18 AM
:applause: I agree wholeheartedly. I don't believe she committed suicide at all. I think that explains why my hinky meter goes off where the brother is concerned.

Why the brother? Adam had just come into town to be with his brother once Max became gravely injured.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 11:20 AM
Ok I've got to weigh in here. I've been following (although not in depth) and I've seen all the pictures.

Here's my thought - any and all comments would be appreciated.

Go back and look at the crime scene. Where she is on the ground with the table on the walkway.

IF he cut her down - she would have fallen STRAIGHT DOWN. Straight down would have put her on the walkway or perhaps even hitting the table on the way down.

How in the hello did she get into the grass? Did Adam move her to the grass and possibly start CPR - if so, then why didn't he remove the noose?

Unless there was a freak windstorm at the moment he cut her down there is no way she would have fallen at such an angle to end up in that grass. NO WAY! It doesn't fit.

Comments?

He probably moved her to the soft grass where she wouldnt be placed on a concrete surface.

IMO

askfornina
07-22-2011, 11:22 AM
i dunno. it is a possibility that this was a suicide but "something is just not right" as they say, lol. i hope whatever it is determined to be, there is more information given.

pferrin
07-22-2011, 11:27 AM
I keep thinking about the painting that was removed from the house and the statement that there was alot of anger surrounding this death..just wish we had a few more details to go on. Am glad the investigators are taking their time..hopefully they are being very thorough.

The anger might not fit the suicide concept.. At midnight she spoke to sis and is ok..6 hours later..dead..alot of anger about something is involved..wheither it is Rebecca or someone else.

Nude body did make a BIG statement.. if Rebecca commited suicide(everything about me says NO WAY) the naked body is a slap to the ones that love her. If a murder.. then the naked body is a slap to those that love her. so either way naked body is a big statement. If she was guilt ridden about Maxie then she wouldnt want to slap JS again.

time
07-22-2011, 11:29 AM
I really have more faith in LE than that. It would mean the entire police force would have to be in on it. I find that unrealistic. This isnt about taking care of a speeding ticket and making it go away.

If they determine it was a suicide then IMO it was a suicide. And I don't find that an unreasonable option either. In fact I really lean much more to a tragic suicide than homicide even now.

Lots of rich and powerful people have been arrested and convicted for criminal wrongdoings. Some serving LWOP or on death row.

So just because the home owner has money does not convince me LE would just let whomever is responsible for the homicide (IF there was one) get off.


I wasn't necessarily pointing the finger at LE although nothing in what I said implies the entire police force would have to be in on it, nor do I think that is probable. In these cases, different LE working on the case have different roles with most of them only knowing a part of the story. For instance, a forensic person or two will collect evidence at the scene but a different forensic person or team will analyze that evidence in the lab. Someone determines what evidence is sent on for what testing and if advanced testing is ordered. It's just not as simple as saying they would all have to be in on it.

LE does not make all the decisions in these cases and at some point a prosecutor gets involved who basically decides what evidence will be presented and who will get charged - that person often has the head DA looking over him/her and having input. There are judges who make rulings. There are decisions on what is told to the media, gag orders, sealing autopsies, etc. Every single person involved does not participate in every element or decision. Most involved only will intersect with a small part of a case and only communicate with a limited number of players.

Let's say this is ruled a homicide, but they have a few possible suspects ... then what happens? What if the forensics are not totally conclusive and it could go either way, but they have a great suspect because of motivation or for whatever other reasons. They choose at that point whether to pursue that suspect or call it a day and a suicide. Further, if they didn't gather the right evidence against that suspect from the beginning, they may not have a strong case and might decide not to pursue a conviction (and knowing they will be up against a multi-member team of well known, well funded defense experts and witnesses).

Quester
07-22-2011, 11:30 AM
Ok I've got to weigh in here. I've been following (although not in depth) and I've seen all the pictures.

Here's my thought - any and all comments would be appreciated.

Go back and look at the crime scene. Where she is on the ground with the table on the walkway.

IF he cut her down - she would have fallen STRAIGHT DOWN. Straight down would have put her on the walkway or perhaps even hitting the table on the way down.

How in the hello did she get into the grass? Did Adam move her to the grass and possibly start CPR - if so, then why didn't he remove the noose?

Unless there was a freak windstorm at the moment he cut her down there is no way she would have fallen at such an angle to end up in that grass. NO WAY! It doesn't fit.

Comments?

BBM

The way I envisioned it is AS jumps up on the table and places left arm around RN's waist (with AS elbow at waist, hand at shoulder to support weight) and with right hand holding a knife, cuts the noose rope.

With the combined weight of AS & RN on the table, maybe one of the table legs gives way here? AS manages to get off table while holding RN, he then places RN on the grass.

IF this was suicide, a potential rescuer who might have thought there was a chance of survival, might have quickly realized that if he simply cut the noose rope, she would have fallen straight down on that stone path (as you suggested) which could have cause more damage to the body, and thus affected any slim chance of revival/survival.

????

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 11:31 AM
He probably moved her to the soft grass where she wouldnt be placed on a concrete surface.

IMO
But why move her at all? And if he was going to do CPR you are supposed to do it on a hard surface (not a "soft" surface underneath) - remember Micheal Jackson and the doctor doing CPR on the bed? He should have moved him to the floor. It is common knowledge to put the person on a hard surface?

But, ok - he moves her to the grass. Why? IF he was going to do CPR - then wouldn't you remove, or at least loosen up the noose around the neck?

That crime scene picture does not match up with someone cutting a suicide victim down from a hanging position. It just doesn't. He couldn't have cut her down while holding her (the body draped over his shoulder) - from the angles it would have been nearly impossible to drape her over his shoulder and then reach up to cut the rope. And if he had her draped over his shoulder and could cut the rope without reaching up - then she wouldn't have been hanging - KWIM? He could have stood on the table with her draped over his shoulder to cut the rope - but then once her full weight was on him ( and his shoulder) that would have caused that 3 legged table to go completely off balance and they both would have hit the ground and certainly not that far into the grass.

Cutting her down and moving her to the grass is a HUGE NO NO. He would have known that.

It ain't fittin', it ain't fittin, it just aint' fittin,

it ain't fittin'

defense101
07-22-2011, 11:31 AM
i dunno. it is a possibility that this was a suicide but "something is just not right" as they say, lol. i hope whatever it is determined to be, there is more information given. I agree, if the brother used the table to cut her down, then why is the length of cord laying on lawn, wouldn't it be still hanging from the balcony?

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 11:36 AM
I agree, if the brother used the table to cut her down, then why is the length of cord laying on lawn, wouldn't it be still hanging from the balcony?
AH!!!! Good point. LONG piece of rope laying on the ground. That would tend to imply that she was "cut down" from the balcony - leaving most of the length of rope with the body. But, if she was cut from the balcony - then she would have fallen straight down to the walkway. Again, this picture does not fit the statements that we have been given. It just doesn't fit. We have not been given the complete low down.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 11:36 AM
I keep thinking about the painting that was removed from the house and the statement that there was alot of anger surrounding this death..just wish we had a few more details to go on. Am glad the investigators are taking their time..hopefully they are being very thorough.

The anger might not fit the suicide concept.. At midnight she spoke to sis and is ok..6 hours later..dead..alot of anger about something is involved..wheither it is Rebecca or someone else.

Nude body did make a BIG statement.. if Rebecca commited suicide(everything about me says NO WAY) the naked body is a slap to the ones that love her. If a murder.. then the naked body is a slap to those that love her. so either way naked body is a big statement. If she was guilt ridden about Maxie then she wouldnt want to slap JS again.

The anger may be because she felt left out. I am sure since only family members were allowed to see Maxie that Jonah told her it might not be a good idea to come to the hospital or he mentioned that his ex was very emotional at that time.

This link was posted yesterday.

Naked Suicides:

Quote:
Conventional wisdom has it that a woman found hanging naked is most likely a homicide or a staged suicide.5 It is thought that "feminine modesty" carries over into a suicidal death. Nonetheless, women do hang themselves or induce asphyxia by other means while naked.

Quote:
The disposition of clothing found at the site of a naked suicide attempt or completion can yield valuable clues to the individual's mental state. Clothes that are neatly arranged point to a planned suicide. Clothes strewn about raise the question of compulsivity or mental disorganization secondary to a severe psychiatric condition, substance abuse, or sexual homicide.

Quote:
Naked suicide can be associated with any method of suicide; however, anecdotal evidence indicates that it occurs more frequently with hanging, overdose, or drowning, but to a lesser extent in jumping deaths. With the exception of jumping, most naked suicides occur indoors.

Quote:
Naked suicide suggests a variety of psychological themes. The shedding of clothes may symbolize a new beginning, a rebirth and cleansing, or a sloughing off of the world. In the biblical description of Christ's resurrection, his clothes, a symbol of an unregenerate world, were left behind as he ascended into heaven.11

Anger and vengeance can be expressed by completing suicide while naked, especially when it is intended to traumatize a survivor. The shock of discovering a naked suicide inflicts an indelible, traumatic memory that can haunt a survivor for a lifetime.12 The person who completes suicide while naked may intend to add insult to a suicide survivor's already devastating injury.
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/2/240

colette
07-22-2011, 11:36 AM
If she jumped from the table she was most likely not hanging too far from the ground. The brother could have cut her down and carried her to the grass. She doesn't look very heavy.

angelwngs
07-22-2011, 11:39 AM
Quoted from this link at ABC News the female 911 caller stated that the child "had fallen from stairs" not 'down the stairs' which could indicate the child fell from a balcony onto the stairs or off a balcony to the floor below...at the bottom of the staircase. If the children were in the care of RN and he fell off the top of a bansiter railing or over a banister to the floor below. I can see how there could be extreme guilt for feeling she didn't watch a young chlid with enough care.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/spreckels-mansion-death-boy-max-schacknai-dies/story?id=14097880

The child "had fallen from stairs and was not breathing and did not have a pulse," Coronado Police Chief Louis Scanlon said last Thursday.

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 11:41 AM
If she jumped from the table she was most likely not hanging too far from the ground. The brother could have cut her down and carried her to the grass. She doesn't look very heavy.
Agreed. But that doesn't explain the length of the rope still attached to the body. If he held her around the waist and reached up as far as he could and cut the rope - there would have been rope left dangling from the balcony. I don't see any rope left hanging on the balcony and the length of the rope on the ground with the body seems to be the entire length (with possibly just the knot left tied to the iron work on the balcony).

defense101
07-22-2011, 11:45 AM
If she jumped from the table she was most likely not hanging too far from the ground. The brother could have cut her down and carried her to the grass. She doesn't look very heavy. Then as I said above why is the lenght of cord laying across the lawn and not hanging from the balcony?

mrsu
07-22-2011, 11:46 AM
IIRC when the police got there, they said she was face down, no? I can't find the link now. If that's the case, then they were there when her body was moved, at least once.

IMO, if it's homicide, the brother definitely needs to be looked at closer. The first thing I thought of when I read the stories was, why would he cut her down? Yes, I guess he could have thought she was still alive, but it would also be a convenient excuse for why his fingerprints would be on that cord. Also, it's hard to know from the photos, but if he did cut her down...did he go thru the house and upstairs and cut her down/untie the cord from the balcony? I don't think he did...perhaps he pushed the table over, stood on that, and cut her down. If so, wouldn't there still be a piece of rope left hanging off the balcony? Again, hard to know if there was when police arrived. Would they take something like that down right away? I have a hard time believing they would if they would leave her body lay in the open for hours not to disturb the scene. The other thing I'm sill baffled by is the way her legs are bent. If she died while hanging, I don't see any reason for her legs to be in that bent position. When rigor set in, they would have been straight.

In studying the photos longer, I really think she was hogtied at some point. I know the police said she wasn't when they got there, but that doesn't mean she hadn't been. I googled some hogtied images, and her body definitely looks like it could have been in that position...and many of the images have a gag...perhaps what the blue scarf was used for?

Other questions I have are...where was Neil Nalepa (Rebecca's ex-husband) and is Dina Romano (JS ex-wife #2) remarried? Hence the Romano last name. If so, where was her husband?

pferrin
07-22-2011, 11:47 AM
When police arrived she was face down in the grass..if he did start CPR..then that is a weird position. She does seem mighty far away from balcony.


Ok I've got to weigh in here. I've been following (although not in depth) and I've seen all the pictures.

Here's my thought - any and all comments would be appreciated.

Go back and look at the crime scene. Where she is on the ground with the table on the walkway.

IF he cut her down - she would have fallen STRAIGHT DOWN. Straight down would have put her on the walkway or perhaps even hitting the table on the way down.

How in the hello did she get into the grass? Did Adam move her to the grass and possibly start CPR - if so, then why didn't he remove the noose?

Unless there was a freak windstorm at the moment he cut her down there is no way she would have fallen at such an angle to end up in that grass. NO WAY! It doesn't fit.

Comments?

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 11:47 AM
Agreed. But that doesn't explain the length of the rope still attached to the body. If he held her around the waist and reached up as far as he could and cut the rope - there would have been rope left dangling from the balcony. I don't see any rope left hanging on the balcony and the length of the rope on the ground with the body seems to be the entire length (with possibly just the knot left tied to the iron work on the balcony).

I think he unwound the rope that was attached to the balcony then held onto the rope and lowered her gently to the ground then rushed down and picked her up and put her in the soft grass area and unloosened the makeshift noose.

IMO

Quester
07-22-2011, 11:48 AM
I agree, if the brother used the table to cut her down, then why is the length of cord laying on lawn, wouldn't it be still hanging from the balcony?

I believe the long cords we see in the photos on the ground are the wrist and ankle bindings along with whatever short bit of rope from the noose rope.

time
07-22-2011, 11:50 AM
I just don't think Rebecca committed suicide. As the earlier expert quoted said - he hasn't seen anything like it in his 35 years and it would be extremely rare.

In the articles on suicide, I don't know if there is even one case where someone was naked, bound, hanged, and jumped. Or even naked, bound, hanged, outside.

Many of the asphyxia cases are sexual - they definitively said hers was not.

Many of the naked suicides are a consequence of how they committed suicide and where (bathtub).

And so on ... it is not as simple as relaying a bunch of quotes about suicide as I said before. You'd have to combine statistics to look at it one way and that would progressively make the probability very small that Rebecca committed suicide in this manner, given what we know about this case. As others are pointing out here ... there are possibly additional logistics making it even more improbable, nearly impossible, or impossible.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 11:50 AM
When police arrived she was face down in the grass..if he did start CPR..then that is a weird position. She does seem mighty far away from balcony.

I have never heard them say she was face down. In the photos we have seen of her body she is face up.

Do you have a link to that article? Thanks

JenniferTx
07-22-2011, 11:51 AM
I apologize if this is wrong to think or post....

I was very curious as to why they took out a rolled up rug. I know a number of people have commented about the body and rigor motis etc and said she may have passed away some time before she was found...

I am also puzzled about the ties on her legs and also what was used to tie up her wrists. Electrical cord is hard to use and tie(I hate to roll ours up when doing yard work)...but I can see it being used as the long rope her body was hung with. But what about the other bindings? What were they??

I wonder if someone tied her up in the room before she was hung. Hence the straps tied to her leg. And I wonder if she was dead before she was hung.

Here is the part I am not sure I should post. I had thought I had read that people can lose control of their bodily functions upon death, especially a violent death. That if she hung herself, then there would be a chance that there would be signs there in the courtyard that she lost control of her bodily functions...

But if she was killed prior to hanging (especially if someone choked her) then those forensics would be in the room that this happened. Like maybe on a rug...

Sorry.. I do not mean to be gross. I am just as puzzled as everyone else. Just when I think "murder" I also hear about other things (like blue scarf) that are a sign of grief etc....

I agree with you on the fact that she would have lost control of her bodily functions if she had hung herself. When I found my first husband after he hung himself he had lost control of his bodily functions. I don't think she killed herself. I think she was murdered and it was an attempt to make it look like a suicide.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 11:52 AM
I just don't think Rebecca committed suicide. As the earlier expert quoted said - he hasn't seen anything like it in his 35 years and it would be extremely rare.

In the articles on suicide, I don't know if there is even one case where someone was naked, bound, hanged, and jumped. Or even naked, bound, hanged, outside.

Many of the asphyxia cases are sexual - they definitively said hers was not.

Many of the naked suicides are a consequence of how they committed suicide and where (bathtub).

And so on ... it is not as simple as relaying a bunch of quotes about suicide as I said before. You'd have to combine statistics to look at it one way and that would progressively make the probability very small that Rebecca committed suicide in this manner, given what we know about this case. As others are pointing out here ... there are possibly additional logistics making it even more improbable, nearly impossible, or impossible.

The link has to do with suicide deaths only........not sexual.

IMO

Seek&Find
07-22-2011, 11:53 AM
I don't think it was suicide. The only way I could see someone committing suicide by hanging while nude would be if they were drunk/on drugs. But if you're impaired in your own home and suicidal, would you really think of using electrical cords, or wouldn't you just go get a knife? As a woman, if I was thinking of committing suicide, and couldn't find enough rope, I'd never think to use an electrical cord to tie anything. For binding, I'd think a woman would think more of strings, shoestrings, zipties since LE uses them, things that are familiar. Many years ago, I did consider suicide, but I'd have never thought of this. Plus, if it was suicide due to remorse over Maxie falling in the house, I don't think she'd further contaminate the feelings about the house by committing suicide there and increasing the pain of the one she loved. Seems more like a method a hired killer would use. Especially being tied up. Guess we'll have to wait until forensics and toxicology are released, but it all seems very suspicious to me/highly unlikely to be suicide. All IMO

And even if it turns out she was impaired, I still think murder is more likely. Much like little Caylee's case where we questioned if it was an accident, why would someone make it look like a murder. If this was suicide, why make it look like murder? Re: the possible x-ing out on a pic, if that was done, it could've been done by the killer too.

mrsu
07-22-2011, 11:53 AM
I think he unwound the rope that was attached to the balcony then held onto the rope and lowered her gently to the ground then rushed down and picked her up and put her in the soft grass area and unloosened the makeshift noose.

IMO

But he did say he "cut her down".

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 11:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Suicide Statistics (2001)

Suicide Methods
Rate Per
Number 100,000 % of Total
Firearms..................16,869........5.9....... ..55.1
All Other Methods.........13,753........4.8.........49.9
Hanging or Suffocation.....6,198........2.2.........20.2 %
Poisoning..................5,191........1.8....... ..17.0
Falls........................651........0.2....... ...2.1
Cutting / Pieercing..........458........0.2..........1.5
Drowning.....................339........0.1....... ...1.1
Fire.........................147........0.1....... ...0.5


Hanging or suffocation is used in about one out of five suicides, which is why you can never leave an acutely suicidal person alone for a second. People who have died by hanging have used virtually every conceivable thing to hang themselves with, including shoe laces, electric cords, belts, bedsheets,etc. Again, never leave an acutely suicidal person alone.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PyHQrIkHYAIJ:www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html+do+women+hang+themselves%3F&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

mrsu
07-22-2011, 11:57 AM
I have never heard them say she was face down. In the photos we have seen of her body she is face up.

Do you have a link to that article? Thanks

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2011/07/rebecca-zahau-death-authorities-seal-records-push-suicide-meme/


According to news reports Adam ‘cut down’ Rebecca’s body and called 911. The police arrived to find Rebecca’s nude body, ‘face down’, electrical cords used to bind her hands behind her back and her feet.

Seek&Find
07-22-2011, 11:57 AM
I agree with you on the fact that she would have lost control of her bodily functions if she had hung herself. When I found my first husband after he hung himself he had lost control of his bodily functions. I don't think she killed herself. I think she was murdered and it was an attempt to make it look like a suicide.

Immeasurably sorry you went through this. :hug: Thank you for sharing.

time
07-22-2011, 11:57 AM
When police arrived she was face down in the grass..if he did start CPR..then that is a weird position. She does seem mighty far away from balcony.

Yeah, I never understood why she would be face down if he tried to resuscitate her.

I'm not sure now if we know had she just died or not? Early on, I quoted an article that made it sound like she was still alive - I didn't think it was the same as other articles that said she was in distress but possibly. If so, then it is meaningless and she could have been dead for hours.

Anyone know more about TOD? I wondered earlier if she was in rigor and maybe that's why her legs are bent, possibly even from a drop from the balcony.

Right now, we don't even know she actually died from the hanging do we?

I don't really suspect Adam, at least not that he murdered her. A thought just popped in my head though. What if he found her and called someone else before he called 911?

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 11:58 AM
But he did say he "cut her down".

I cant remember exactly what LE said he said now, Mrsu.

But imo he either unwound the knot holding the rope attached to the balcony or he cut it. The cord is still long and can be seen in the photos of her body.



IMO

pferrin
07-22-2011, 11:59 AM
Anger and vengeance can be expressed by completing suicide while naked, especially when it is intended to traumatize a survivor. The shock of discovering a naked suicide inflicts an indelible, traumatic memory that can haunt a survivor for a lifetime.12 The person who completes suicide while naked may intend to add insult to a suicide survivor's already devastating injury.
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/2/240


Ocean ..to me this is why the anger on her part doesnt make any sense..she had told her sis that she was going to hospital next day..she didnt tell her sis she was angry..I will find link on how body was found by police..be back soon.

kljohnson0458
07-22-2011, 11:59 AM
Why the brother? Adam had just come into town to be with his brother once Max became gravely injured.

IMO

Just a feeling I get when I heard their relationship described (brothers) not Rebecca. We'll see, it won't be long before all the forensics are back. Either way it is tragic.

ETA: And for the fact that he was the one that found her, supposedly cut her down so if his DNA found he could use that. I am very curious to know if she was sexually assaulted. I do not for one second believe she did this to herself.

time
07-22-2011, 11:59 AM
The link has to do with suicide deaths only........not sexual.

IMO

What link is it? I thought you were referring to the journal article on naked suicides.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:02 PM
http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2011/07/rebecca-zahau-death-authorities-seal-records-push-suicide-meme/

Thank you. Do you have a MSM article saying the same thing as deathby1000papercuts?

imo

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:04 PM
What link is it? I thought you were referring to the journal article on naked suicides.

I was and those are actual suicides not deaths that occur accidentally through sex play games.

IMO

JenniferTx
07-22-2011, 12:04 PM
Immeasurably sorry you went through this. :hug: Thank you for sharing.

I have no problems talking about it since I know I will never be able to forget this tragic event so I might as well talk about it to try and help others. My first husband wasn't nude when I found him hanging in the closet but he did only have underwear on when I found him. I don't think she killed herself because it almost sounds like it was staged. I mean if you were going to kill yourself why do it in the nude and also outside.

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 12:04 PM
I think he unwound the rope that was attached to the balcony then held onto the rope and lowered her gently to the ground then rushed down and picked her up and put her in the soft grass area and unloosened the makeshift noose.

IMO
To untie the rope and lower her to the ground would have meant that he would have had to bend WAY OVER on that balcony to get her all the way to the ground. I don't think that rope was long enough for him to be physically able to do that - he would have bent way over the iron railing and still would have had to let her go at one point.

Plus, he did say he cut her down.

Wish we had more info. Where were all the major players when Adam found her? Was the ex-wife/mother at the hospital? Was the father at the hospital? Did any of the staff of the house stay at the house or did they all live elsewhere - sometimes with mansions this big there is a caretaker or maid that will live in one of the guest houses and be on call 24/7.

The report of a "party" or "loud music" is unsettling too. With a small child in the hospital on life support WHO in their right mind would be playing loud music or, heaven forbid, be hosting a party?

And the bit about the "Hot Diggity Dogs" guy and boarding the dog?

This is defnintely very strange all the way around.

Quester
07-22-2011, 12:07 PM
... snipped ...

Right now, we don't even know she actually died from the hanging do we?



That's right - we don't!

We need more info/facts.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:09 PM
Anger and vengeance can be expressed by completing suicide while naked, especially when it is intended to traumatize a survivor. The shock of discovering a naked suicide inflicts an indelible, traumatic memory that can haunt a survivor for a lifetime.12 The person who completes suicide while naked may intend to add insult to a suicide survivor's already devastating injury.
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/2/240


Ocean ..to me this is why the anger on her part doesn't make any sense..she had told her sis that she was going to hospital next day..she didn't tell her sis she was angry..I will find link on how body was found by police..be back soon.

Ahh but we can never trust what a suicidal person says they are going to do. My daughter's friend told my daughter they were going to have lunch together but imo she had no intentions of ever meeting her. She had already made plans to kill herself and did.

So what if Rebecca was really being told that it was best she didn't come to the hospital? She wouldn't want to tell her family that imo.

I am sure they were asking her had she seen him yet so she said she was going to 'tomorrow' because she knew 'tomorrow' was never going to happen.

IMO

mrsu
07-22-2011, 12:12 PM
Thank you. Do you have a MSM article saying the same thing as deathby1000papercuts?

imo

Looking...found this article, doesn't say face down, but does say:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mysterious-rebecca-zahau-mansion-death-devastates-family/story?id=14080327


Authorities discovered Zahau's body on Wednesday after a houseguest, Adam Shacknai, told police he found her completely naked with a rope around her neck hanging from a balcony off the main house.


When police arrived at the historic Spreckels Mansion, owned by Shacknai's brother Jonah Shacknai, Zahau's multimillionaire boyfriend, they found the 32-year-old's body on the lawn in the backyard. Shacknai told them he had cut her down.


Zahau's hands were bound behind her back and her feet were bound, but her hands and feet did not appear ever to have been bound together, police said. Though Adam Shacknai said she was hanging from a rope, investigators did not disclose what kind of material bound her hands and feet.

The home's balcony, which lies outside of a bedroom, is about 10 to 15 feet from the ground. Police were not immediately aware how Zahau's body would have been anchored if, indeed, it had been hanging.

time
07-22-2011, 12:16 PM
Anger and vengeance can be expressed by completing suicide while naked, especially when it is intended to traumatize a survivor. The shock of discovering a naked suicide inflicts an indelible, traumatic memory that can haunt a survivor for a lifetime.12 The person who completes suicide while naked may intend to add insult to a suicide survivor's already devastating injury.
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/2/240


Ocean ..to me this is why the anger on her part doesnt make any sense..she had told her sis that she was going to hospital next day..she didnt tell her sis she was angry..I will find link on how body was found by police..be back soon.



Also, I hope everyone will head the author in taking any conclusions from this research:


Given the dearth of information available about naked suicide, this article is offered as an initial exploration of this topic. It is hoped that letters to the editor and case reports in response will stimulate discourse about this little understood phenomenon.

This is exploratory research, not any unified theory or in depth research on the topic - that's typical when a topic hasn't been researched much and there is no rich body of work to reference on the actual topic. This is why the author says. "anecdotal evidence indicates that it occurs more frequently with hanging, overdose, or drowning, but to a lesser extent in jumping deaths. " Those are hedge words in research. There is no way to know how strong this anecdotal evidence is or if it would stand up in further research.

In sum, these are the only conclusions this author is making:


Conclusions

What is the significance of naked suicide? Can the individual's nakedness provide insight into his or her psyche at the time of death? Can such knowledge assist clinicians in the treatment of patients who have attempted suicide while naked? Naked suicide attempts and completions remain largely unexplored, both by clinicians and in the professional literature. The percentage of suicides that are completed while naked is unknown. Individuals who make naked suicide attempts should be considered at high risk for suicide. In the author's clinical experience, deliberate self-harm behaviors are usually not inflicted while naked. Naked suicide attempts are high-risk events, especially when the underlying fantasy is death and rebirth.

A psychological autopsy may uncover the meaning of a naked suicide. In the mosaic of factors associated with suicide attempts and completions, nakedness or the state of dishabille is a piece, sometimes a critical piece, of evidence. Forensic psychiatrists and treating clinicians who encounter naked suicide attempts or completed suicides are afforded a unique opportunity to further the understanding of this little understood phenomenon.


I think it's an interesting article, but there are no statistics in this article that are definitive. There is a small amount of discussion about committing naked suicide when the method is hanging. Maybe some on committing suicide in public naked and so on.... but what we have is

a woman
hanging
bound
naked
very public

Not to mention the other possible factors, e.g., like one poster mentioned that Rebecca would probably not want to put Jonah through further grief.

pferrin
07-22-2011, 12:16 PM
http://news.lalate.com/2011/07/18/rebecca-nalepa-clues-may-rest-in-courtyard-table/ another link that says she was found face down when police arrive

Quester
07-22-2011, 12:17 PM
... snipped ...

Police were not immediately aware how Zahau's body would have been anchored if, indeed, it had been hanging.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mysterious-rebecca-zahau-mansion-death-devastates-family/story?id=14080327

Say what????? :waitasec:

ETA: So does this mean the "cut her down" statement was false? There was no remaining noose rope left attached to the balcony (or whatever) when police arrived?

Rut roh!

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:19 PM
That's right - we don't!

We need more info/facts.

I think we are pretty safe to say the COD will be death by hanging. The ME wouldn't need weeks to determine that imo.

What they are waiting on is to see if she had alcohol or drugs in her system at the time and if they found them in the room she stayed in or scattered about on her dresser. Imo if found they will test the bottles for fingerprints.

Where they found her clothing will tell them whether they were ripped off or simply taken off and dropped in a neat pile or laid across her bed.

IMO

kljohnson0458
07-22-2011, 12:20 PM
To untie the rope and lower her to the ground would have meant that he would have had to bend WAY OVER on that balcony to get her all the way to the ground. I don't think that rope was long enough for him to be physically able to do that - he would have bent way over the iron railing and still would have had to let her go at one point.

Plus, he did say he cut her down.

Wish we had more info. Where were all the major players when Adam found her? Was the ex-wife/mother at the hospital? Was the father at the hospital? Did any of the staff of the house stay at the house or did they all live elsewhere - sometimes with mansions this big there is a caretaker or maid that will live in one of the guest houses and be on call 24/7.

The report of a "party" or "loud music" is unsettling too. With a small child in the hospital on life support WHO in their right mind would be playing loud music or, heaven forbid, be hosting a party?

And the bit about the "Hot Diggity Dogs" guy and boarding the dog?

This is defnintely very strange all the way around.

I want to hear all the alibis. The loud music could have been used to cover up any news made while RN was being attacked. Just sayin. I have heard over and over there was no party that night. Excellent point about the onsite maid but I'm sure we'd have heard of an interview with such a person. Who knows that Rebecca didn't send her on her way, she was boarding the dog.

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 12:27 PM
Anyone have a clear picture of the crime scene? One that shows both where she is on the ground AND the balcony above? I just went back and looked through them all. The only one I found with both in it was blurry.

I want to blow up a pic of the balcony to see if there is any "bending" of the wrought iron work on the balcony. If she was hanging by that iron work - it is possible that it might have bent under the weight. But then again it might not have. I've grown up with wrought iron work all around me - on porches, blaconies, ornamental, etc. While it is very strong - it can (and usually does) weaken through the years. This mansion is over 100 years old and that iron work looks like it "came with the house".

I'm just curious as to the "condition" of that wrought iron on the balcony.

SuziQ
07-22-2011, 12:30 PM
I go back and forth everyday on suicide vs murder. Today I am leaning towards murder. No sign of noose or anything hanging from the balcony. There is a long length of orange electrical cord on the ground attached to the body, but IIRC it does not trail from the neck area. Then you have the feet tied spaced apart as if she had been tied to a chair. Then add the rigor looks like she was in a sitting position for hours after she died. IIRC, rigor starts in the neck and moves down. And finally, I am just not seeing her balancing on a table binding her feet and hands (behind her back) while a noose is around her neck.

kljohnson0458
07-22-2011, 12:31 PM
Hmmm....Something else just occurred to me. Where was the 13 y/o girl that was there when the boy went down the steps. Wasn't that an older daughter of JS and she would be staying at the house. I guess she could have left and gone back with her primary caretaker after the accident.

SuziQ
07-22-2011, 12:31 PM
Wow, that's interesting about LE not being able to determine how she was hung.

Paladine
07-22-2011, 12:33 PM
I apologize if this is wrong to think or post....

I was very curious as to why they took out a rolled up rug. I know a number of people have commented about the body and rigor motis etc and said she may have passed away some time before she was found...

I am also puzzled about the ties on her legs and also what was used to tie up her wrists. Electrical cord is hard to use and tie(I hate to roll ours up when doing yard work)...but I can see it being used as the long rope her body was hung with. But what about the other bindings? What were they??

I wonder if someone tied her up in the room before she was hung. Hence the straps tied to her leg. And I wonder if she was dead before she was hung.

Here is the part I am not sure I should post. I had thought I had read that people can lose control of their bodily functions upon death, especially a violent death. That if she hung herself, then there would be a chance that there would be signs there in the courtyard that she lost control of her bodily functions...

But if she was killed prior to hanging (especially if someone choked her) then those forensics would be in the room that this happened. Like maybe on a rug...

Sorry.. I do not mean to be gross. I am just as puzzled as everyone else. Just when I think "murder" I also hear about other things (like blue scarf) that are a sign of grief etc....

BBM GREAT point! I was with many a family member in hospital, during their last hours, and I would watch the urine bag for the sign of letting go...then the smell would come of the bowels emptying. IF these signs are not outside, on her, or on the ground, imo, she was dead before hung.

justbetweenus
07-22-2011, 12:36 PM
I think we are pretty safe to say the COD will be death by hanging. The ME wouldn't need weeks to determine that imo.

What they are waiting on is to see if she had alcohol or drugs in her system at the time and if they found them in the room she stayed in or scattered about on her dresser. Imo if found they will test the bottles for fingerprints.

Where they found her clothing will tell them whether they were ripped off or simply taken off and dropped in a neat pile or laid across her bed.

IMO

There seems to be so much more. If it was a simple death by hanging why seal the autopsy report? Why seal the 911 call?

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:37 PM
Anyone have a clear picture of the crime scene? One that shows both where she is on the ground AND the balcony above? I just went back and looked through them all. The only one I found with both in it was blurry.

I want to blow up a pic of the balcony to see if there is any "bending" of the wrought iron work on the balcony. If she was hanging by that iron work - it is possible that it might have bent under the weight. But then again it might not have. I've grown up with wrought iron work all around me - on porches, blaconies, ornamental, etc. While it is very strong - it can (and usually does) weaken through the years. This mansion is over 100 years old and that iron work looks like it "came with the house".

I'm just curious as to the "condition" of that rout iron on the balcony.

I think like everything else in this mansion the rout iron was strong and in good shape. I cant see a 12-13 million dollar home having shoddy weak iron work on the balcony.

She looked small to me so I think the balcony iron work would have no problem holding her weight up. It is probably riveted into a concrete foundation.

People commit suicide by tying the rope to a chandelier or even a shower head. All it takes is for the feet not to be able to touch the ground.

IMO

Quester
07-22-2011, 12:37 PM
Anyone have a clear picture of the crime scene? One that shows both where she is on the ground AND the balcony above? I just went back and looked through them all. The only one I found with both in it was blurry.

I want to blow up a pic of the balcony to see if there is any "bending" of the wrought iron work on the balcony. If she was hanging by that iron work - it is possible that it might have bent under the weight. But then again it might not have. I've grown up with wrought iron work all around me - on porches, blaconies, ornamental, etc. While it is very strong - it can (and usually does) weaken through the years. This mansion is over 100 years old and that iron work looks like it "came with the house".

I'm just curious as to the "condition" of that wrought iron on the balcony.

Available photos of the crime scene all appear to be blurry.

Here's link to the Fox 5 series:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

Paladine
07-22-2011, 12:39 PM
I think we are pretty safe to say the COD will be death by hanging. The ME wouldn't need weeks to determine that imo.

What they are waiting on is to see if she had alcohol or drugs in her system at the time and if they found them in the room she stayed in or scattered about on her dresser. Imo if found they will test the bottles for fingerprints.

Where they found her clothing will tell them whether they were ripped off or simply taken off and dropped in a neat pile or laid across her bed.

IMO

RBBM Now, I DID skip 2 pages...but I am certainly FAR from sure this is death by hanging...just sayin'...:)

Now, going to read those 2 pages. ;)

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:40 PM
There seems to be so much more. If it was a simple death by hanging why seal the autopsy report? Why seal the 911 call?

That is really not that uncommon. They will do so as long as the investigation is on going and the tox test come back and they make a determination on MOD.

askfornina
07-22-2011, 12:40 PM
Wow, that's interesting about LE not being able to determine how she was hung.

somewhere earlier in the last thread i believe someone said that LE stated they were not disclosing what the rope was attached to, and that they were also not disclosing whether or not the room with the balcony was her room. anyone remember this/have a link?

Paladine
07-22-2011, 12:42 PM
I think like everything else in this mansion the rout iron was strong and in good shape. I cant see a 12-13 million dollar home having shoddy weak iron work on the balcony.

She looked small to me so I think the balcony iron work would have no problem holding her weight up. It is probably riveted into a concrete foundation.

People commit suicide by tying the rope to a chandelier or even a shower head. All it takes is for the feet not to be able to touch the ground.

IMO

RBBM: AND the feet can even touch the ground. I learned that from the case of Ryan Jenkins who killled Jasmine...he hung himself in a motel in BC on a coat rack. Surprised the heck outta me.

justbetweenus
07-22-2011, 12:42 PM
IIRC when the police got there, they said she was face down, no? I can't find the link now. If that's the case, then they were there when her body was moved, at least once.

IMO, if it's homicide, the brother definitely needs to be looked at closer. The first thing I thought of when I read the stories was, why would he cut her down? Yes, I guess he could have thought she was still alive, but it would also be a convenient excuse for why his fingerprints would be on that cord. Also, it's hard to know from the photos, but if he did cut her down...did he go thru the house and upstairs and cut her down/untie the cord from the balcony? I don't think he did...perhaps he pushed the table over, stood on that, and cut her down. If so, wouldn't there still be a piece of rope left hanging off the balcony? Again, hard to know if there was when police arrived. Would they take something like that down right away? I have a hard time believing they would if they would leave her body lay in the open for hours not to disturb the scene. The other thing I'm sill baffled by is the way her legs are bent. If she died while hanging, I don't see any reason for her legs to be in that bent position. When rigor set in, they would have been straight.

In studying the photos longer, I really think she was hogtied at some point. I know the police said she wasn't when they got there, but that doesn't mean she hadn't been. I googled some hogtied images, and her body definitely looks like it could have been in that position...and many of the images have a gag...perhaps what the blue scarf was used for?

Other questions I have are...where was Neil Nalepa (Rebecca's ex-husband) and is Dina Romano (JS ex-wife #2) remarried? Hence the Romano last name. If so, where was her husband?

That really makes me wonder if that might be true.

Dum-Dum Sucker
07-22-2011, 12:42 PM
Jonah has left and gone back to Arizona.
I would not expect Adam to have stayed in California if his brother left.

Do we know if Adam attended Maxie's funeral??

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:44 PM
RBBM Now, I DID skip 2 pages...but I am certainly FAR from sure this is death by hanging...just sayin'...:)

Now, going to read those 2 pages. ;)

LOL, ok. but imo if it wasnt a hanging then LE would have moved much more quickly because they would have known immediately she didn't die by jumping off the balcony and hanging herself.

IMO the ME did tell them already that the death was due to a hanging. Its the MOD that they are waiting on, imo. Suicide or Homicide.

IMO

Paladine
07-22-2011, 12:44 PM
somewhere earlier in the last thread i believe someone said that LE stated they were not disclosing what the rope was attached to, and that they were also not disclosing whether or not the room with the balcony was her room. anyone remember this/have a link?

I'll keep an eye open in my travels...

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 12:46 PM
Available photos of the crime scene all appear to be blurry.

Here's link to the Fox 5 series:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery
Thankx but there are none of the balcony in those.

As for the wrought iron being in good condition. As I said, I've lived around wrought iron my entire life. While it may look like it is strong and in good condition - it can rot from within. It would seem that the wrought iron on that balcony was strictly ornamental. While it was put there to ensure the safety of people standing on that balcony - it was never meant for anyone to sit on (or swing from).

I was 10 and we were all climbing the wrought iron tressel to get to the roof. My foot went completely through a piece as I stepped onto it. Even though 5 - 6 other kids went up before me.

I've seen a dog tethered to a piece of wrought iron and while he didn't pull through the iron - he did a heck of a job bending it out.

My DH is a structural steel ironworker. It does have flaws and weaknesses in it, just like glass.

I'm just curious about the wrought iron and would like to see a better picture of the iron on the balcony.

Quester
07-22-2011, 12:46 PM
somewhere earlier in the last thread i believe someone said that LE stated they were not disclosing what the rope was attached to, and that they were also not disclosing whether or not the room with the balcony was her room. anyone remember this/have a link?

Yep - I remember the non-disclosure of the anchor.


Re: room - in the last couple of days, a posted article stated it was a "bedroom" [new info to me] but not whose.

ETA: Here's a quote and link:

The home's balcony, which lies outside of a bedroom, is about 10 to 15 feet from the ground.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mysterious-rebecca-zahau-mansion-death-devastates-family/story?id=14080327

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:46 PM
RBBM: AND the feet can even touch the ground. I learned that from the case of Ryan Jenkins who killled Jasmine...he hung himself in a motel in BC on a coat rack. Surprised the heck outta me.

Sounds like he was determined. I guess he bent his knees and let his neck take all the pressure.

IMO

time
07-22-2011, 12:47 PM
Available photos of the crime scene all appear to be blurry.

Here's link to the Fox 5 series:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

Are there any early pictures with a piece of rope/cord attached to the balcony?

I can't imagine LE would take that off right away if there were. If not, then it at least indicates someone detached her by untying the cord at the balcony? Although they keep saying 'cut her down" don't they?

I keep wondering if she could have been found dead (with or without the binding, but with I think) and someone tried to cover up by taking her out to the lawn. Of course, they would know this and probably wouldn't keep saying it's a suicide unless they suspect there is a small chance it was suicide and someone moved her? Same goes for a homicide. Maybe it could be a homicide, but not from hanging from the balcony. I could see a third party doing something to 'limit the damage' in the press.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:51 PM
Thankx but there are none of the balcony in those.

As for the wrought iron being in good condition. As I said, I've lived around wrought iron my entire life. While it may look like it is strong and in good condition - it can rot from within. It would seem that the wrought iron on that balcony was strictly ornamental. While it was put there to ensure the safety of people standing on that balcony - it was never meant for anyone to sit on (or swing from).

I was 10 and we were all climbing the wrought iron tressel to get to the roof. My foot went completely through a piece as I stepped onto it. Even though 5 - 6 other kids went up before me.

I've seen a dog tethered to a piece of wrought iron and while he didn't pull through the iron - he did a heck of a job bending it out.

My DH is a structural steel ironworker. It does have flaws and weaknesses in it, just like glass.

I'm just curious about the wrought iron and would like to see a better picture of the iron on the balcony.

I imagine Jonah had someone (professional inspector) go over every inch of this home and inspect it from top to bottom before he purchased it.

imo

Jade
07-22-2011, 12:54 PM
May I muddy the water more by pointing out a comment in this link that was provided by mrsu?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mysterious-rebecca-zahau-mansion-death-devastates-family/comments?type=story&id=14080327

Summation:

meow2525 posted on July 15th and says she is a good friend of the daughter and has been in contact with the family who are struggling, asking for prayers for them.

Says on a 15th post the little boy has now passed away

On the same day she says in two different posts that the stairs are carpeted and she can’t see how he could get so badly hurt.

Another poster challenges her saying the child is still on life support.

meow2525 posts back on the 16th that she knows for a fact Max was taken off life support this morning.

Also meow2525 says if you had seen the stairs in that house you would know that is not how the boy died

As usual all caution being expressed that there is really no telling who is posting, imo

* I don’t see any times for the posts so she could have been posting late on
the 15th that the life support was discontinued on the morning of the 15th
then after midnight posted this morning since she hadn’t gone to bed yet it seemed the same day although it was technically the 16th.

all imo

askfornina
07-22-2011, 12:55 PM
Are there any early pictures with a piece of rope/cord attached to the balcony?

I can't imagine LE would take that off right away if there were. If not, then it at least indicates someone detached her by untying the cord at the balcony? Although they keep saying 'cut her down" don't they?

I keep wondering if she could have been found dead (with or without the binding, but with I think) and someone tried to cover up by taking her out to the lawn. Of course, they would know this and probably wouldn't keep saying it's a suicide unless they suspect there is a small chance it was suicide and someone moved her? Same goes for a homicide. Maybe it could be a homicide, but not from hanging from the balcony. I could see a third party doing something to 'limit the damage' in the press.

it is possible that the rope was not attached to the balcony, but rather something inside the room. though i guess some rope should still be hanging down, though not necessarily. again who knows

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 12:57 PM
The police are right she wasnt hogtied.

When someone is hogtied their legs are also cinched up behind their backs tight and connected to the same rope that binds the hands together.

You can see all of her lower torso in the photos.

IMO

time
07-22-2011, 12:59 PM
RBBM Now, I DID skip 2 pages...but I am certainly FAR from sure this is death by hanging...just sayin'...:)

Now, going to read those 2 pages. ;)

Agree ... I don't think the investigators have ever said she died from the hanging, have they? We assumed that. Now, it appears they never even said they identified that she was attached to the balcony by any rope, cord, scarf, etc. Even if she was, it could have been to cover up for being strangled first. LE could be quiet because they are looking for inconsistencies in what others have said and the evidence as well as any motivation for murder and Rebecca's emotional state, who had actually been in the house between the time Max was taken to the hospital and the time Rebecca was found, why there was loud music playing Tues night, communication with others, and so on. I hope we know more soon as we don't really know that much.

JenniferTx
07-22-2011, 12:59 PM
RBBM: AND the feet can even touch the ground. I learned that from the case of Ryan Jenkins who killled Jasmine...he hung himself in a motel in BC on a coat rack. Surprised the heck outta me.

My first husband hung himself in our closet and he could have easily stood up to save himself if he really wanted to. One of the medics that was there told me that he really wanted to die! I always thought that was a strange comment to make to someone who just lost their spouse.

Sabrina2011
07-22-2011, 01:03 PM
Hospital Footage/Security Video will now be reviewed by police (to verify all parties were at the hospital during the hours they stated they were)

"The San Diego Sheriff's Department will be obtaining a search warrant to review the footage. Investigators want to confirm details of what Jonah, Adam, and Dina [Jonah's second wife, and Max's mother], have revealed to them. Jonah maintains that he was at the hospital when Rebecca's body was found. This is a very fluid investigation," a law enforcement source tells us.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/07/shacknai-death-hospital-video-surveillance-sheriffs-department-review

Seek&Find
07-22-2011, 01:03 PM
I imagine Jonah had someone (professional inspector) go over every inch of this home and inspect it from top to bottom before he purchased it.

imo

I believe someone posted a while back that this home was originally owned by his exwife, so he might not have been involved with its initial purchase. Still, a home inspection may or may not have been done. And, sometimes buyers elect not to correct every item found on inspection, especially if it's primarily for ornamental purposes and still looks good.

time
07-22-2011, 01:04 PM
it is possible that the rope was not attached to the balcony, but rather something inside the room. though i guess some rope should still be hanging down, though not necessarily. again who knows

Ah, interesting point ... but I'm having a difficult time thinking through that one. Would pics show it if a part of it was on the balcony, not hanging over? Possibly not, so it could be there and we can't see it?

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 01:06 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTN6eJRy34LmSlzwgQRUhpyv6ruDR_yA yoGrXRdy2dzVyLbF6ur-ObnTw

Above is a shadow pic of someone "hogtied" - notice that the arms and legs are not cinched up tight and that there is a length of "rope" between the wrists and ankles.

If you go here:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

and look at pic 5 (I just won't post that pic on the board) - you can see that it is highly possible that at one time she was hogtied.

The bending of the knees, which we've heard she was in rigor - so stiff, does not jive with hanging. If someone dies by hanging and remains there long enough to go into rigor - then the knees will most certainly not be bent.

I really wish they would hold a presser or release a little bit more info. With this silence - kinda tells me LE is on to something and we just might see an arrest soon. It was that way with Tyler Hadley (hammer boy) and the adopted son that killed his mother down here as well. Both were arrested in a matter of a few days.

Seek&Find
07-22-2011, 01:08 PM
The police are right she wasnt hogtied.

When someone is hogtied their legs are also cinched up behind their backs tight and connected to the same rope that binds the hands together.

You can see all of her lower torso in the photos.

IMO

Yes, she wasn't hogtied when police got there, but only forensics can tell if she was prior to that. I don't think her position upon police arrival negates the possibility another poster suggested.

Paladine
07-22-2011, 01:11 PM
:applause: I agree wholeheartedly. I don't believe she committed suicide at all. I think that explains why my hinky meter goes off where the brother is concerned.

I had been viewing the brothers as separate entities. Were these brothers close? Would they do almost anything for each other? The brother flew in after Maxies fall, iirc...to comfort his brother? Sure, might be...to see his Nephew? Likely, did he? Or to help exact retribution, or assist in a cover up of the real details of the fall for someone else? I'm not sure...

time
07-22-2011, 01:11 PM
Hospital Footage/Security Video will now be reviewed by police (to verify all parties were at the hospital during the hours they stated they were)

"The San Diego Sheriff's Department will be obtaining a search warrant to review the footage. Investigators want to confirm details of what Jonah, Adam, and Dina [Jonah's second wife, and Max's mother], have revealed to them. Jonah maintains that he was at the hospital when Rebecca's body was found. This is a very fluid investigation," a law enforcement source tells us.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/07/shacknai-death-hospital-video-surveillance-sheriffs-department-review

Great! I was hoping they would do this.

"Jonah maintains that he was at the hospital when Rebecca's body was found. "

I guess this is most important IF Adam found her right away... but that doesn't rule out some third party and a hit job. I am not focused on Jonah however. I hope they check all available records - phone, any hospital cameras outside the ICU, etc. - I think the communication web is important also not just who was where at the time Rebecca was found.

justbetweenus
07-22-2011, 01:19 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTN6eJRy34LmSlzwgQRUhpyv6ruDR_yA yoGrXRdy2dzVyLbF6ur-ObnTw

Above is a shadow pic of someone "hogtied" - notice that the arms and legs are not cinched up tight and that there is a length of "rope" between the wrists and ankles.

If you go here:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

and look at pic 5 (I just won't post that pic on the board) - you can see that it is highly possible that at one time she was hogtied.

The bending of the knees, which we've heard she was in rigor - so stiff, does not jive with hanging. If someone dies by hanging and remains there long enough to go into rigor - then the knees will most certainly not be bent.

I really wish they would hold a presser or release a little bit more info. With this silence - kinda tells me LE is on to something and we just might see an arrest soon. It was that way with Tyler Hadley (hammer boy) and the adopted son that killed his mother down here as well. Both were arrested in a matter of a few days.

BBM exactly! The rope could have been cut at the time she was brought down.

Is there any rope trailing from her feet in blown up pics?

time
07-22-2011, 01:26 PM
BBM exactly! The rope could have been cut at the time she was brought down.

Is there any rope trailing from her feet in blown up pics?

Someone earlier said they thought there was by looking at the pics - I believe they said the long orange cord was actually attached to her feet and not her neck. I can't remember who posted that - from the blown up picture?

Paladine
07-22-2011, 01:27 PM
Radaronline link says NO security cameras at all in the mansion...? He could certainly afford them, he had valuables to protect, he was somewhat high profile and worth tons of dough...I think I'd have a couple of cameras...unless there were things I did not want caught on camera...

time
07-22-2011, 01:30 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTN6eJRy34LmSlzwgQRUhpyv6ruDR_yA yoGrXRdy2dzVyLbF6ur-ObnTw

Above is a shadow pic of someone "hogtied" - notice that the arms and legs are not cinched up tight and that there is a length of "rope" between the wrists and ankles.

If you go here:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

and look at pic 5 (I just won't post that pic on the board) - you can see that it is highly possible that at one time she was hogtied.

The bending of the knees, which we've heard she was in rigor - so stiff, does not jive with hanging. If someone dies by hanging and remains there long enough to go into rigor - then the knees will most certainly not be bent.

I really wish they would hold a presser or release a little bit more info. With this silence - kinda tells me LE is on to something and we just might see an arrest soon. It was that way with Tyler Hadley (hammer boy) and the adopted son that killed his mother down here as well. Both were arrested in a matter of a few days.


Thank you ... that pic 5 really looks like hogtying is plausible. Her hip also almost looks like it is out of place, but then again, when someone is thin their hip might stick out like that. The orange cord in the pic also looks like it could be attached to her feet and not her neck. And that would explain why her shoulders are pulled back so far, painfully so - I thought that was strange in the beginning, with her arms completely behind her. Just can't see her falling into that position if it was a simple hanging, even if she had been rolled over or something. Just doesn't make sense.

Paladine
07-22-2011, 01:31 PM
Someone earlier said they thought there was by looking at the pics - I believe they said the long orange cord was actually attached to her feet and not her neck. I can't remember who posted that - from the blown up picture?

Could she have been hogtied and hung from the balcony...and then the central cord broke? A torture type scenario, I'm sad to say.

justbetweenus
07-22-2011, 01:31 PM
Someone earlier said they thought there was by looking at the pics - I believe they said the long orange cord was actually attached to her feet and not her neck. I can't remember who posted that - from the blown up picture?

Someone (maybe Sabrina?) blew up the picture, and posted her observations. She did not post it.

pferrin
07-22-2011, 01:33 PM
Jonah and Dina may have both been at the hospital when Rebecca's body was found ..but were they there when Rebecca body was hanged.

SleuthyMama
07-22-2011, 01:33 PM
Hospital Footage/Security Video will now be reviewed by police (to verify all parties were at the hospital during the hours they stated they were)

"The San Diego Sheriff's Department will be obtaining a search warrant to review the footage. Investigators want to confirm details of what Jonah, Adam, and Dina [Jonah's second wife, and Max's mother], have revealed to them. Jonah maintains that he was at the hospital when Rebecca's body was found. This is a very fluid investigation," a law enforcement source tells us.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/07/shacknai-death-hospital-video-surveillance-sheriffs-department-review

Seems a little strange to me that they are just reviewing the tape now, especially after we've heard that Jonah and Adam have both left California. I'd think LE would have reviewed tapes prior to allowing anyone to leave town.

Dum-Dum Sucker
07-22-2011, 01:34 PM
Radaronline link says NO security cameras at all in the mansion...? He could certainly afford them, he had valuables to protect, he was somewhat high profile and worth tons of dough...I think I'd have a couple of cameras...unless there were things I did not want caught on camera...

Plus, this mansion is an historical building. Very hard to fathom that it would not be protected by security cameras.

defense101
07-22-2011, 01:38 PM
Jonah and Dina may have both been at the hospital when Rebecca's body was found ..but were they there when Rebecca body was hanged. That will be the million dollar question. They will have to show that from the time her sister was on the phone with her until the brother saw the body that they were there the entire night.If the police are requesting the hospital videos shows that the police no longer are looking at this as a suicide IMO

time
07-22-2011, 01:38 PM
Radaronline link says NO security cameras at all in the mansion...? He could certainly afford them, he had valuables to protect, he was somewhat high profile and worth tons of dough...I think I'd have a couple of cameras...unless there were things I did not want caught on camera...

Hard to imagine there are NO cameras as they were not there to protect their home most of the time or probably a large part of the time. They could have had someone caretaking the place, but I'd still think cameras. I wonder if they had cameras, they just weren't on?

I'm also wondering if neighbors had any security cameras that would have caught anyone driving up or not? Not sure ... I know my neighbors cameras don't take clear pics very far from the house.

I do have to wonder if some people don't get cameras as a preventative measure - that way nothing accidentally gets put on tape!

pferrin
07-22-2011, 01:41 PM
My brother worked for ME in New Mexico for years..he said they would be able to tell if she was strangled then hung to cover up strangulation.

Quester
07-22-2011, 01:41 PM
Hypothetically, focusing only on the neck, and without looking at any other info:

IF RN was strangled to death, then placed in a noose (staged), could ME medically distinguish this hypothetical homicide (staged as a suicide) from a true suicide?

time
07-22-2011, 01:44 PM
Could she have been hogtied and hung from the balcony...and then the central cord broke? A torture type scenario, I'm sad to say.

I had similar thoughts. I think there are a number of plausible scenarios.

Quester
07-22-2011, 01:48 PM
My brother worked for ME in New Mexico for years..he said they would be able to tell if she was strangled then hung to cover up strangulation.


Thanks for your response and for seeing through to my intended question from my poorly written first draft of that question!

pferrin
07-22-2011, 01:49 PM
Hypothetically, focusing only on the neck, and without looking at any other info:

IF RN was strangled to death, then placed in a noose (staged), could ME medically distinguish this hypothetical homicide (staged as a suicide) from a true suicide?

My brother says yes..if strangled by hand..marks would be different than hanging..he worked for ME for years.

also from what I understand if this was autoerotica ..she would have to have one hand free.

The body looks so strange..almost like she was hanging from her hands that were tied behind her..too many weird parts to this case..HINKY keeps on going off.

Carrington
07-22-2011, 01:51 PM
Someone posted that they saw an ADA (?) security emblem in one of the pictures.
I have never bought that they don't have cameras, maybe only an alarm system.
Weather it was set or not, is another question.
They have to have security, just unheard of not too.

IMO

time
07-22-2011, 01:53 PM
None of this is neither her nor there just observations. Someone earlier said that with Max gone, Dina had no big connection to Jonah anymore (I guess that would actually be no connection based on child support, visitation, etc. - otherwise we don't know about alimony, etc.). We heard from family 'friends' that Jonah was about to propose to Rebecca. I wonder if all his family knew that. Marrying Rebecca might have meant more children in the near future, if she could have children. Not now, although I guess he could take up with another woman in the near future who could either just become his wife (some legal claim to part of his fortune) or his wife and mother of more children (heirs). Not sure the brother, Adam, has any claim over money should something happen to Jonah or that it matters if Adam were considered a suspect? Investors may have some interest in what is going on, obviously, as do others employed by Medicis. Competitors have some interest. The first wife and her current husband have an interest in what happens to his estate.

freshmom
07-22-2011, 01:54 PM
Could she have been hogtied and hung from the balcony...and then the central cord broke? A torture type scenario, I'm sad to say.

I agree . A recent cold case that was solved in Massachusetts involved a teen who had been hogtied and left in a vacant lot, the perps said they intended to teach him a lesson however, when they returned a few hours later he had died from struggling


http://crimesceneusa.blogspot.com/2011/04/mass-cold-case-murder-from-1969-finally.html

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 01:55 PM
Hard to imagine there are NO cameras as they were not there to protect their home most of the time or probably a large part of the time. They could have had someone caretaking the place, but I'd still think cameras. I wonder if they had cameras, they just weren't on?

I'm also wondering if neighbors had any security cameras that would have caught anyone driving up or not? Not sure ... I know my neighbors cameras don't take clear pics very far from the house.

I do have to wonder if some people don't get cameras as a preventative measure - that way nothing accidentally gets put on tape!
ITA - that is certainly odd. On a 12 mil mansion - not the first camera? Odd. With a 6 yr old living in that house - no cameras? Odd. Summer/vacation home - not there a lot of the time - no cameras? Odd.

Even when "criminals" or "corrupted people" live in mansions - they usually don't have cameras inside - but the entire perimeter is quite commonly surveilled 24/7.

Since we can't even hear the 911 call we are at a severe disadvantage. We simply don't have enough (or any) information.

time
07-22-2011, 01:57 PM
My brother says yes..if strangled by hand..marks would be different than hanging..he worked for ME for years.

also from what I understand if this was autoerotica ..she would have to have one hand free.

The body looks so strange..almost like she was hanging from her hands that were tied behind her..too many weird parts to this case..HINKY keeps on going off.


But, what if she were first strangled with a cord or similar? Could you tell then?

Sabrina2011
07-22-2011, 02:01 PM
why was there ANY music heard coming from the Mansion the night before she was found in the morning. I realize a party had been planned, but some say it was cancelled. It would seem an odd time while Max was in the hospital for music to be heard in a 27 room mansion at such a volume that neighbors heard.

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 02:01 PM
But, what if she were first strangled with a cord or similar? Could you tell then?
Possibly. An ME will look at how the "cord, rope, hands, object" went around the neck. If there is any "angle" to the marks, someone that dies from hanging the "ring of marks" on the neck will angle upwards to where the noose was attached. If someone is strangled at "ground level" the "ring marks" are usually circular and equi-distant all the way around. KWIM?

Does that make any sense?

Carrington
07-22-2011, 02:05 PM
I'm also wondering if Adam's first call was to 911 or JS.
How JS reacted, leaving the hospital or staying put, and letting Adam deal with it.
So many unanswered questions.
The last time JS spoke to RN is also important.
IMO

TGIRecovered
07-22-2011, 02:05 PM
The type of knot it was not was new information. It was not a "noose" knot. It could have been any knot. And yes, it was an effective knot whatever it was.

I don't think the type of knot can tell us anything about scene staging or not.

That's alto of nots/knots!

I just want to point out that all of this scrutiny of the way the noose was tied could be for naught, :floorlaugh:(another "not"!), depending upon the reason the cop called it "makeshift".

If the description came from a police report, it could be that the person writing the report or the person being quoted referred to it as "makeshift" because it was made with an electrical cord instead of a rope, if that's what was used.

On the other hand, if the person calling it "makeshift" was someone who would be an expert on tying knots, it may well have been the wrong kind of knot. Which tells us nothing, since a knot expert trying to stage a suicide might be sharp enough to tie the wrong kind of knot on purpose.

I still don't suspect the tugboat brother, though!:twocents:

Carrington
07-22-2011, 02:07 PM
why was there ANY music heard coming from the Mansion the night before she was found in the morning. I realize a party had been planned, but some say it was cancelled. It would seem an odd time while Max was in the hospital for music to be heard in a 27 room mansion at such a volume that neighbors heard.

Yes, unless the music was coming from speakers in the Courtyard.
IMO

Jade
07-22-2011, 02:08 PM
Thankx but there are none of the balcony in those.

As for the wrought iron being in good condition. As I said, I've lived around wrought iron my entire life. While it may look like it is strong and in good condition - it can rot from within. It would seem that the wrought iron on that balcony was strictly ornamental. While it was put there to ensure the safety of people standing on that balcony - it was never meant for anyone to sit on (or swing from).

I was 10 and we were all climbing the wrought iron tressel to get to the roof. My foot went completely through a piece as I stepped onto it. Even though 5 - 6 other kids went up before me.

I've seen a dog tethered to a piece of wrought iron and while he didn't pull through the iron - he did a heck of a job bending it out.

My DH is a structural steel ironworker. It does have flaws and weaknesses in it, just like glass.

I'm just curious about the wrought iron and would like to see a better picture of the iron on the balcony.

My husband is an Ironworker from San Diego!

Course in this case we are talking wrought iron not fabricated iron like hubs work on.

San Diego has so much really beautiful old wrought iron work.

I agree that it can be “hollow” if not maintained especially every day decorative type.

But Spreckels Cottage seems to have been magnificently built and preserved so the quality and craftsmanship of the iron alone would hold up then adding in that it has been continuously maintained it doesn’t seem it would give, imo

It is a strong architectural feature by the finest of craftsman I am sure.

Now the way it is anchored into the stucco [?] may be a different story.

It is all so sad and the poor house. Standing over 100 years and these double tragedies on her grand and lovely grounds

I hope that maybe JS will think of using the home as a museum. Does Coronado have a museum? With the proceeds to go to his charities in memory of Max and Rebecca

Maybe the mansion will not hear laughter and children playing for many years but I can’t think that it staying lonely and sad looking like it is now is good for anyone.

all imo

pferrin
07-22-2011, 02:09 PM
But, what if she were first strangled with a cord or similar? Could you tell then?

I asked the same question..he said yes..it would require a little closer look..when you are hanged .the marking would be higher than if you were strangled with a cord. hope that makes sense...need more coffee.. theligature mark from noose would be right beneath chin going upward toward ears..if noose was in back. if noose was on side it would be under one ear going up toward other side.

defense101
07-22-2011, 02:11 PM
Has RN funeral been announced yet? I myself will find it interesting as to who shows up or not.

Paladine
07-22-2011, 02:23 PM
now, here's a link from local media that pins down some details...or so we hope. ;) Too much to pick a quote, have at it, websleuthers....;)

http://www.coronadonewsca.com/news/article_792a7e1a-b48c-11e0-a5cf-001cc4c002e0.html

Paladine
07-22-2011, 02:32 PM
According to published reports, investigators have asked toxicology reports in the autopsies be expedited to help in the investigation.

Those results could be complete next week.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_northeast_valley/scottsdale/team-of-detectives-assigned-to-coronado-'mansion-mystery'

and from the previous link I posted, it stated Maxies 911 call came around 10 am.

Paladine
07-22-2011, 02:40 PM
The longer the investigation into the deaths of Medicis (MRX) CEO Jonah Shacknai’s son and girlfriend goes on, the more of a media circus it becomes — and the more pressure Medicis’ board will come under to ask Shacknai to step aside.

There is no sign of that happening now. Shacknai is the founder of the company and is heavily identified with it. No one wants to see Medicis without Shacknai. And yet if the police eventually declare that the hanging death of Rebacca Zahau Nalepa at his Coronado, Calif., mansion is a homicide, it’s difficult to see how he could continue to run the company.

The case would surely turn into a Casey Anthony-style media free-for-all, due to its bizarre circumstances

ETA: EXCELLENT timeline at this link! Seriously. :) I can only quote so much due to fairuse, but, boy, be nice to copy that WHOLE timeline...anyone have an idea how to do so? ;)

http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-business/if-probe-of-shacknai-deaths-lingers-medicis-may-contemplate-life-without-its-ceo/9201

time
07-22-2011, 02:46 PM
ETA: EXCELLENT timeline at this link! Seriously. :) I can only quote so much due to fairuse, but, boy, be nice to copy that WHOLE timeline...anyone have an idea how to do so? ;)

http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-business/if-probe-of-shacknai-deaths-lingers-medicis-may-contemplate-life-without-its-ceo/9201

Do a bit of paraphrasing :)

MsFacetious
07-22-2011, 02:48 PM
In case this has not been posted before Douglas Loehner who is Rebecca's brother-in-law was recognized this week for 10 years of service to the St. Joseph Missouri Police Department. The article does not indicate in which capacity he was honored. Hopefully this will help with the retrieval of information moving forward.

http://www.stjoepd.info/awards.cfm

Zahau's brother-in-law Doug Loehner issued a statement Thursday.

"Jonah is a stand-up guy. He was very devoted to Rebecca. She treated his kids as her own," Loehner said.

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15075598/coronado-mansion-death?redirected=true



Do we know if Adam attended Maxie's funeral??

We don't know for sure if there has been a funeral or not.

I have heard Jonah is "planning" the funeral... and that was as recent as yesterday.

http://ktar.com/category/local-news-articles/20110721/Police-expedite-toxicology-reports-in-mansion-deaths/

However there have also been a couple of things out there saying that the funeral was Wednesday.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/07/shacknai-death-hospital-video-surveillance-sheriffs-department-review

I haven't seen any credible statement or picture or obituary to prove there was a funeral. I guess they did an amazing job of keeping the media away completely?



somewhere earlier in the last thread i believe someone said that LE stated they were not disclosing what the rope was attached to, and that they were also not disclosing whether or not the room with the balcony was her room. anyone remember this/have a link?

Yes, I remember this because I said "Rebecca's room? Why would she have her OWN room?"



Thank you ... that pic 5 really looks like hogtying is plausible. Her hip also almost looks like it is out of place, but then again, when someone is thin their hip might stick out like that. The orange cord in the pic also looks like it could be attached to her feet and not her neck. And that would explain why her shoulders are pulled back so far, painfully so - I thought that was strange in the beginning, with her arms completely behind her. Just can't see her falling into that position if it was a simple hanging, even if she had been rolled over or something. Just doesn't make sense.

I have unfortunately witnessed several dislocated hips in the last several months.

It is possible it is dislocated. It is hard to tell without comparing it to her other hip. Some do just have hips that stick out like that.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 02:50 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTN6eJRy34LmSlzwgQRUhpyv6ruDR_yA yoGrXRdy2dzVyLbF6ur-ObnTw

Above is a shadow pic of someone "hogtied" - notice that the arms and legs are not cinched up tight and that there is a length of "rope" between the wrists and ankles.

If you go here:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

and look at pic 5 (I just won't post that pic on the board) - you can see that it is highly possible that at one time she was hogtied.

The bending of the knees, which we've heard she was in rigor - so stiff, does not jive with hanging. If someone dies by hanging and remains there long enough to go into rigor - then the knees will most certainly not be bent.

I really wish they would hold a presser or release a little bit more info. With this silence - kinda tells me LE is on to something and we just might see an arrest soon. It was that way with Tyler Hadley (hammer boy) and the adopted son that killed his mother down here as well. Both were arrested in a matter of a few days.

I am not sure what you mean WOO.

When someone is hogtied from the backside the legs from the knees down are folded back and cinched tightly behind the back(they are folded backwards by the perpetrator if it is a criminal act) where rope can bind both ankles and wrists together. Murderers have done this type of technique in the past and then carried or pulled the bodies to discard them by the rope in the middle of the victim's back where their legs and wrists comes close togather.

If she was in rigor when found then her legs would have been fixed in this backward position.

I don't see why the police would lie. They have said her wrists and ankles were bound but have said she was not hogtied.

IMO

time
07-22-2011, 02:52 PM
From that article
http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-business/if-probe-of-shacknai-deaths-lingers-medicis-may-contemplate-life-without-its-ceo/9201


The financial backdrop

Easing Shacknai out of his company would be more of a psychologically difficult problem than a financial one. A severance could net him an annual bonus plus $6.7 million in unvested stock, according to SEC disclosures. He took home $6.3 million in compensation last year.

He also netted $1.4 million on July 6 when he exercised 276,290 options at $26.95/share (total $7,446,015) and sold 224,426 of them at $39.70 on the same day (total $8,909,712). The month before, on June 10, he moved 123,222 shares to an irrevocable trust for the benefit of his children.

Shacknair currently owns 832,856 shares of MRX, which has 150 million Class A shares, 1 million Class B shares and 5 million preferred shares outstanding.

MRX has fallen since Zahau’s death. If the police were to bring charges in her death — even if Shacknai had nothing to do with it ...

If the police return a verdict of suicide, Medicis has a chance of getting back to normal. If not, then Shacknai faces some unpleasant, and unfair, conversations with his colleagues.

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 02:54 PM
now, here's a link from local media that pins down some details...or so we hope. ;) Too much to pick a quote, have at it, websleuthers....;)

http://www.coronadonewsca.com/news/article_792a7e1a-b48c-11e0-a5cf-001cc4c002e0.html
From Paladine's link above:


Two days later, on Wednesday, July 13 at approximately 6:48 a.m., units from the CPD went to 1043 Ocean Boulevard in response to a 911 call. A few hours later at approximately 8:20 a.m., the CPD requested the assistance of the San Diego Sheriff’s Department’s Homicide Detail to investigate a “suspicious death” at the home.

The reporting party indicated a female was possibly deceased at the residence. When the Coronado units arrived at the scene, they located a female adult on the property who appeared to be in distress. They immediately provided medical aid until the Coronado Fire Department arrived on scene a few moments later. After a short time, the woman was determined to be deceased by the responders from the Coronado Fire Department.

BBMThose statements contridict themselves. First responders arrive and find a woman "in distress" , they provide medical aid and then determine she is deceased? WTH?

On Friday night, detectives returned to the mansion with a search warrant, according to a FOX Phoenix report. Police still haven’t said if Nalepa’s death was a murder or suicide.

So, they have conducted a search warrant. I guess that's why we saw the 3-legged table and other things being taken. This article mentions several times that a homicide unit is investigating yet they continue to say they don't know if suicide or homicide?

Nothing is making sense here. Plus the child's death. I've seen where the stairs were carpeted so a fall down them would have been somewhat cushioned. Many people (including children) fall down stairs everday - few of them end up on life support or dead because of the fall. Now, if he went over a second story railing instead of falling (or rolling) down the stairs - that makes a considerate difference - in fact, he could have even fallen on his head.

There is just too much NOT being said. From what I've seen - someone is responsible for RN's death and possibly even the child's death as well.

Quester
07-22-2011, 02:56 PM
Has anyone seen a stated time of evening on Tue when the loud music was heard?

I'm wondering if the loud music was heard before or after the RN phone call with her sister when sister described RN as "normal" and "getting ready for bed", paraphrased.

Carrington
07-22-2011, 02:57 PM
Has RN funeral been announced yet? I myself will find it interesting as to who shows up or not.

More confusion. It was reported she would be buried in her native land, (Burma) then rumor of Missouri, where her family resides. Then JS's PR firm said he was planning two funerals.
Everything in this case is contradictory.
IMO

time
07-22-2011, 03:01 PM
Previous article from Bnet author

By Jim Edwards | July 18, 2011

http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-business/2nd-death-at-ceos-home-will-leave-medicis-without-a-leader/9126?tag=content;drawer-container



Those colleagues, however, will be watching rival company Valeant (VRX) warily: The specialty drugmaker paid $345 million on Friday to acquire the skincare unit of Johnson & Johnson (JNJ); last week it planned a $425 million acquisition of Sanofi (SNY)’s Dermik skincare business. Valeant CEO Michael Pearson described his new competitors in the skincare business — Medicis and Allergan (AGN) — as “lightweights.”

Hmmm ... probably not important but these are some HUGE sums of money, the big deal happened last Friday, and did Pearson really say "lighweights" just recently and in light of the two death?

kljohnson0458
07-22-2011, 03:05 PM
Jonah and Dina may have both been at the hospital when Rebecca's body was found ..but were they there when Rebecca body was hanged.

Exactly, like in the hospital ALL night. I don't know if they'd have that on camera or not but they can talk with the nursing staff who would know if they were in the room sitting, sleeping, etc.

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 03:06 PM
I am not sure what you mean WOO.

When someone is hogtied from the backside the legs from the knees down are folded back and cinched tightly behind the back(they are folded backwards by the perpetrator if it is a criminal act) where rope can bind both ankles and wrists together. Murderers have done this type of technique in the past and then carried or pulled the bodies to discard them by the rope in the middle of the victim's back where their legs and wrists comes close togather.

If she was in rigor when found then her legs would have been fixed in this backward position.

I don't see why the police would lie. They have said her wrists and ankles were bound but have said she was not hogtied.IMO

BBM

It could simply be a play on words - she was not hogtied when they found her. The bending of the knees that we see in the pics and the statements of her being in rigor do not coincide with her hanging and the knees bent.

Now, in that article it states that when the first responders got there they found a woman in "distress" and provided medical aid. The helicopter pic we see of her laying there does not coincide with medical aid being rendered at all (she is on her side with ropes, scarf, etc still attached).

The conflicting statements are coming fast and furious. I go by what I actually see in those chopper pics. And those pics certainly do not show where any first responder provided aid to that body.

JMO

Carrington
07-22-2011, 03:06 PM
Has anyone seen a stated time of evening on Tue when the loud music was heard?

I'm wondering if the loud music was heard before or after the RN phone call with her sister when sister described RN as "normal" and "getting ready for bed", paraphrased.


IIRC, a neighbor reported around 1:00 AM
IMO

justbetweenus
07-22-2011, 03:06 PM
I am not sure what you mean WOO.

When someone is hogtied from the backside the legs from the knees down are folded back and cinched tightly behind the back(they are folded backwards by the perpetrator if it is a criminal act) where rope can bind both ankles and wrists together. Murderers have done this type of technique in the past and then carried or pulled the bodies to discard them by the rope in the middle of the victim's back where their legs and wrists comes close togather.

If she was in rigor when found then her legs would have been fixed in this backward position.

I don't see why the police would lie. They have said her wrists and ankles were bound but have said she was not hogtied.

IMO

Police do purposely lie to media during a investigation. They did in my fathers case and said it's often done.

time
07-22-2011, 03:06 PM
More confusion. It was reported she would be buried in her native land, (Burma) then rumor of Missouri, where her family resides. Then JS's PR firm said he was planning two funerals.
Everything in this case is contradictory.
IMO

I think we need to read the PR statement. Others cite it as saying "takes care of two funerals" or arranges ... seems vague to me. I doubt he is actually planning Rebecca's funeral.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 03:09 PM
From Paladine's link above:


Two days later, on Wednesday, July 13 at approximately 6:48 a.m., units from the CPD went to 1043 Ocean Boulevard in response to a 911 call. A few hours later at approximately 8:20 a.m., the CPD requested the assistance of the San Diego Sheriff’s Department’s Homicide Detail to investigate a “suspicious death” at the home.

The reporting party indicated a female was possibly deceased at the residence. When the Coronado units arrived at the scene, they located a female adult on the property who appeared to be in distress. They immediately provided medical aid until the Coronado Fire Department arrived on scene a few moments later. After a short time, the woman was determined to be deceased by the responders from the Coronado Fire Department.

BBMThose statements contradict themselves. First responders arrive and find a woman "in distress" , they provide medical aid and then determine she is deceased? WTH?

On Friday night, detectives returned to the mansion with a search warrant, according to a FOX Phoenix report. Police still haven’t said if Nalepa’s death was a murder or suicide.

So, they have conducted a search warrant. I guess that's why we saw the 3-legged table and other things being taken. This article mentions several times that a homicide unit is investigating yet they continue to say they don't know if suicide or homicide?

Nothing is making sense here. Plus the child's death. I've seen where the stairs were carpeted so a fall down them would have been somewhat cushioned. Many people (including children) fall down stairs everyday - few of them end up on life support or dead because of the fall. Now, if he went over a second story railing instead of falling (or rolling) down the stairs - that makes a considerate difference - in fact, he could have even fallen on his head.

There is just too much NOT being said. From what I've seen - someone is responsible for RN's death and possibly even the child's death as well.

So the medics must have thought they could resuscitate her but it was to no avail. She may have still had sporadic agonal breathing. That means she was not in rigor when found, imo.

The homicide unit is always called in on a questionable death investigation in case it turns out to be a homicide. They don't want valuable evidence destroyed should it become a homicide nor do they want evidence destroyed that would show them it was a suicide. These cases are death investigations.

justbetweenus
07-22-2011, 03:09 PM
More confusion. It was reported she would be buried in her native land, (Burma) then rumor of Missouri, where her family resides. Then JS's PR firm said he was planning two funerals.
Everything in this case is contradictory.
IMO

I agree. I'm beginning not to believe anything lol

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 03:11 PM
Police do purposely lie to media during a investigation. They did in my fathers case and said it's often done.

Doesnt mean they have in this case though justbetweenus.

The photo as she lay there for hours has been shown.

It clearly shows she wasnt hogtied, imo.

IMO

justbetweenus
07-22-2011, 03:13 PM
From Paladine's link above:


Two days later, on Wednesday, July 13 at approximately 6:48 a.m., units from the CPD went to 1043 Ocean Boulevard in response to a 911 call. A few hours later at approximately 8:20 a.m., the CPD requested the assistance of the San Diego Sheriff’s Department’s Homicide Detail to investigate a “suspicious death” at the home.

The reporting party indicated a female was possibly deceased at the residence. When the Coronado units arrived at the scene, they located a female adult on the property who appeared to be in distress. They immediately provided medical aid until the Coronado Fire Department arrived on scene a few moments later. After a short time, the woman was determined to be deceased by the responders from the Coronado Fire Department.

BBMThose statements contridict themselves. First responders arrive and find a woman "in distress" , they provide medical aid and then determine she is deceased? WTH?

On Friday night, detectives returned to the mansion with a search warrant, according to a FOX Phoenix report. Police still haven’t said if Nalepa’s death was a murder or suicide.

So, they have conducted a search warrant. I guess that's why we saw the 3-legged table and other things being taken. This article mentions several times that a homicide unit is investigating yet they continue to say they don't know if suicide or homicide?

Nothing is making sense here. Plus the child's death. I've seen where the stairs were carpeted so a fall down them would have been somewhat cushioned. Many people (including children) fall down stairs everday - few of them end up on life support or dead because of the fall. Now, if he went over a second story railing instead of falling (or rolling) down the stairs - that makes a considerate difference - in fact, he could have even fallen on his head.

There is just too much NOT being said. From what I've seen - someone is responsible for RN's death and possibly even the child's death as well.

Now I'm wondering if Maxie had fallen and got hung on something. I think I need a break from thinking of this case lol.

time
07-22-2011, 03:14 PM
BBM

It could simply be a play on words - she was not hogtied when they found her. The bending of the knees that we see in the pics and the statements of her being in rigor do not coincide with her hanging and the knees bent.

Now, in that article it states that when the first responders got there they found a woman in "distress" and provided medical aid. The helicopter pic we see of her laying there does not coincide with medical aid being rendered at all (she is on her side with ropes, scarf, etc still attached).

The conflicting statements are coming fast and furious. I go by what I actually see in those chopper pics. And those pics certainly do not show where any first responder provided aid to that body.

JMO



Good post, I also think it just says she was not hogtied when they found her. These LE seem to be picky about their statements - what they aren't saying. Someone earlier said responders always say the person is 'in distress' until a factual determination they are dead (even if they are already dead.)

Also, maybe it's possible she was killed hours earlier and rigor had reversed slightly. I don't remember, but I think that can occur within a few hours.

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 03:15 PM
BBM

It could simply be a play on words - she was not hogtied when they found her. The bending of the knees that we see in the pics and the statements of her being in rigor do not coincide with her hanging and the knees bent.

Now, in that article it states that when the first responders got there they found a woman in "distress" and provided medical aid. The helicopter pic we see of her laying there does not coincide with medical aid being rendered at all (she is on her side with ropes, scarf, etc still attached).

The conflicting statements are coming fast and furious. I go by what I actually see in those chopper pics. And those pics certainly do not show where any first responder provided aid to that body.

JMO

The main thing is though her face is straight up. We do not know how tightly the scarf was around her neck and her chest was exposed so the medics would have no problem getting to her chest area or her airways to work on her. They would try very hard not to disturb the scene and what was on her.

IMO

Carrington
07-22-2011, 03:16 PM
I have never heard of the Fire Dept. declaring someone dead. That's for the ME to decide, even if obvious.
IMO

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 03:16 PM
So the medics must have thought they could resuscitate her but it was to no avail. She may have still had sporadic agonal breathing. That means she was not in rigor when found, imo.

The homicide unit is always called in on a questionable death investigation in case it turns out to be a homicide. They don't want valuable evidence destroyed should it become a homicide nor do they want evidence destroyed that would show them it was a suicide. These cases are death investigations.
But those chopper pics here:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

IMHO that body shows absolutely no signs of having any aid rendered at all. First, she would have been rolled onto her back so the airway could be cleared and any vital checked. If they used any materials - those paper "discards" would be laying around. It just doesn't jive with any first responder rendering aid. And the rigor comments - well if she was in rigor wouldn't the first responders have known that? IMO again, they did and that body was not touched by any frist responder - other than to confirm death.

And to leave her there, naked, like that. Its disrespectful, but yet, trying to preserve the scene and evidence...........

Not enough info - but certainly looks very suspicious and not like a suicide to me at all.

kljohnson0458
07-22-2011, 03:17 PM
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/07/22/what-went-down-at-the-shacknai-mansion/

Interesting read in that it says that Dina, Maxie's mother was in the house as well as the brother the early morning hours of 7/12. Oddly enough it does say they administered CPR. Hmmmmm....

oceanblueeyes
07-22-2011, 03:20 PM
I think we need to read the PR statement. Others cite it as saying "takes care of two funerals" or arranges ... seems vague to me. I doubt he is actually planning Rebecca's funeral.

I bet he is.

I think this man is devastated that he has had to prepare funerals for two people he loved. I think Rebecca will be buried with dignity and grace.

But it just shows money cant buy happiness and we have seen other powerful families go through their own set of tragedies.

IMO

Quester
07-22-2011, 03:24 PM
So the medics must have thought they could resuscitate her but it was to no avail. She may have still had sporadic agonal breathing. That means she was not in rigor when found, imo.

The homicide unit is always called in on a questionable death investigation in case it turns out to be a homicide. They don't want valuable evidence destroyed should it become a homicide nor do they want evidence destroyed that would show them it was a suicide. These cases are death investigations.

RE: Sporadic agonal breathing - I'm not familiar with this

Does that happen just before death or just after death?

TIA

anneinchicago
07-22-2011, 03:27 PM
Other questions I have are...where was Neil Nalepa (Rebecca's ex-husband) and is Dina Romano (JS ex-wife #2) remarried? Hence the Romano last name. If so, where was her husband?

Neil lives in Scottsdale, Az. He has family, an aunt, in Plano, Tx. Other than that, there's not much net-wise I can find.

Romano is Dina's maiden name. Her mother lives in California and she has a sister who was also at Maxie's bedside.


Romano said she has been talking frequently with Dina and another daughter, who are at the hospital with the boy.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2011/07/13/20110713shacknai-medicis-ceo-womans-death-reported-san-diego.html#ixzz1SrXcq8Ay



On an unrelated to the above note-

Find A Grave has a tacky entry for Maxie. Well, I think it's tacky to include a picture of the staircase where he supposedly died. According to whoever posted the entry, both half sibs stayed with Jonah in the Spreckles Mansion in the summer.

So the next question (just what this case needs, more questions) is, was E there and if so, where was e when Maxie fell?

Wise Old Owl
07-22-2011, 03:30 PM
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/07/22/what-went-down-at-the-shacknai-mansion/

Interesting read in that it says that Dina, Maxie's mother was in the house as well as the brother the early morning hours of 7/12. Oddly enough it does say they administered CPR. Hmmmmm....
Yes, it does. I've been wondering about the ex-wife/mother and her actions.

But a bigger question came up for me when reading that article. Where was the 13 yr old sister? She was there when Max went "down the stairs" - in fact, they say it was her that called 911. But then, when Rebecca is found - there is no mention of where she was.

Also, the party - very strange. Yes, there was a party. No, there was no party - just loud music. Why board the dog because a child is in the hospital? But makes sense to board the dog if you're having a big party (it was a pretty big dog). Although wouldn't you just put the dog in a room that was not to be used? I mean there were 27 rooms in that place plus out buildings FGS.

Norwegian
07-22-2011, 03:30 PM
Been reading through the threads all day after finding out about this case on People.com earlier today.

All I can say is that I'm very confused, but I don't believe Rebecca committed suicide.

I will follow this for sure.