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pferrin
07-29-2011, 08:29 PM
I have several issues with statements in this article.

the police have not said who they are checking on ..hospital footage.

the police said that AS cut her down and that he said she was hanging..not that they verified she had been hanging.

this once again tries to attack the victim..ie sex stuff..yet from what I have read..erotica asphixia requires on had free.
I will come up with more issues...hehehe

jjenny
07-29-2011, 08:33 PM
There would be difference jjenny.

If they made her jump I would think there would be signs off a struggle. Rebecca just wouldn't say 'ok Ill jump" she would fight to live. That is just a normal instinct when self preservation kicks in and it has been said that she was in great physical shape. So imo they would find defensive wounds on her hands and arms as she wrestled with the person trying to tie her up and would see signs of a struggle in and near the balcony area.

She would not just stand there doing nothing while the person but a noose around her neck or bound her wrists and feet up.

I am sure LE has had to figure out before if a death was a suicide or a homicide and they look for certain factors that point in one direction or the other.

The knots also can be a key piece of evidence. They most likely will call in a knot expert to get their opinion whether she made the knots herself or they believe the particular knot was used by another with a specific background and trade.

IMO

Well after all police did describe her death as "violent." So how does that jive with suicide?

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 08:35 PM
Yep the knots..also it is difficult to tie ones hands and feet tightly with extension cord..I could tie someone else tightly but not myself..impossible.

Not with orange extension cords.

I admit that my eyesight could be much better but in the photo of Rebecca laying on the lawn the material around her ankles didn't appear to be the extension cord. It looked brown or dark and much wider than an extension cord would be. Like maybe some kind of cloth like material.

IMO

4Jacy
07-29-2011, 08:38 PM
I posted this way back when....I want to see these people. I want to see JS, AS, Dina, NN. I want to see their hands, arms, chests and necks. Why are they not coming forward; perhaps waiting for wounds to heal! Remember the marks on RC's hand and neck.

These are POI and they are being treated differently than the average Joe. Get it done LE, get it done!!

MizStery
07-29-2011, 08:42 PM
I have several issues with statements in this article.

the police have not said who they are checking on ..hospital footage.

the police said that AS cut her down and that he said she was hanging..not that they verified she had been hanging.

this once again tries to attack the victim..ie sex stuff..yet from what I have read..erotica asphixia requires on had free.
I will come up with more issues...hehehe

Thank-you pferrin for reading my post! My meaning was not clear...I knew I changed the font size but forgot to color it. red

Here goes the theory I meant to highlight Did Jonah release the statement about wanting to propose to Zahau as a cover up?

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 08:43 PM
Well after all police did describe her death as "violent." So how does that jive with suicide?

I think that is because of the way they found her. It would be considered violent because women tend to usually kill themselves in a non-violent manner such as using drugs to overdose themselves and do it within the confines of their homes.

They do hang themselves but to be naked and exposed hanging on an outside balcony I would say is extremely rare and almost unheard of but the psyche experts will say that those that commit suicide can be very creative in the way they do it though.

So I think it was taking everything in totality that LE deemed it violent. Just like they did in the Melinda Duckett suicide when she went into a closet and blew her head off with her grandfather's shotgun. Both cases were extreme ways to commit suicide if Rebecca's death was due to suicide. Out of the norm for a female.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 08:46 PM
I posted this way back when....I want to see these people. I want to see JS, AS, Dina, NN. I want to see their hands, arms, chests and necks. Why are they not coming forward; perhaps waiting for wounds to heal! Remember the marks on RC's hand and neck.

These are POI and they are being treated differently than the average Joe. Get it done LE, get it done!!

I dont think you are going to see any of these people.

They were interviewed by police though and I have no doubt LE looked them over for any new bruises, cuts or scrapes.

IMO

defense101
07-29-2011, 08:50 PM
I think that is because of the way they found her. It would be considered violent because women tend to usually kill themselves in a non-violent manner such as using drugs to overdose themselves and do it within the confines of their homes.

They do hang themselves but to be naked and exposed hanging on an outside balcony I would say is extremely rare and almost unheard of but the psyche experts will say that those that commit suicide can be very creative in the way they do it though.

So I think it was taking everything in totality that LE deemed it violent. Just like they did in the Melinda Duckett suicide when she went into a closet and blew her head off with her grandfather's shotgun. Both cases were extreme ways to commit suicide if Rebecca's death was due to suicide. Out of the norm for a female.

IMO I thought I heard or read that the interior of the house where the balcony is located was suspicious, anyone remember this?

pferrin
07-29-2011, 08:53 PM
Ocean..I'm still unsure of material used to tie Rebecca. I think almost anything rope cord belt..whatever..it would be difficult to tie oneself as tightly as we could tie someone else. Dont know if death is due to hanging..if it is who dunnit. I will believe she did it to her self.

When I first started reading this thread..you were looking more closely at suicide..so I started sleuthing hanging suicides. I talked to my brother a lot about suicides erotica asphixia ..I kept researching..everything everyone wrote. Then I could only come to one conclusion. Homicide. dont know why or who or exactly when it happened..cause coroner is not talking.

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 08:54 PM
I thought I heard or read that the interior of the house where the balcony is located was suspicious, anyone remember this?

Suspicous? I am not sure what you mean by that but I havent read that. Perhaps another poster has and I missed it somehow.

IMO

Paladine
07-29-2011, 09:03 PM
Figured we could use some links to get some possible facts straight...here's an earlier report...


On July 11, police received a call from a woman at the mansion who they would not identify, requesting medical aid for Max.

The child "had fallen from stairs and was not breathing and did not have a pulse," Coronado Police Chief Louis Scanlon said last Thursday.

Maybe this is where the 'party' meme started...Tuesday night is the night Rebecca died...well, into Wed a.m....


In between the boy's accident and the discovery of Zahau's body, neighbors told ABC News affiliate KGTV a loud party took place at the mansion on Tuesday night. However, police said last Thursday they were not aware of any parties.


Zahau's sister Mary Zahau-Loehner, 33, told ABC News last week that she spoke with her sister around midnight Tuesday, and everything seemed to be OK.
"She was normal, fine, just getting ready to go to bed," said Zahau-Loehner, who lives in Saint Joseph, Mo.

And if you watch this video, just to the left on your screen at link: "Coronado Mansion Death: Police Investigate", pay attention to when they 'light up' the 'rope', it's right at the begininng. There appears to ME to be an orange AND brown 'rope'...the brown looks a little orange, but the orange looks REALLY orange. It's around her ARM, I THINK? If you have a look, please tell me if you see what I see...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/spreckels-mansion-death-boy-max-schacknai-dies/story?id=14097880

katydid23
07-29-2011, 09:05 PM
Several years ago I was helping my teen son and his friend decorate our front yard for Halloween. They found two long orange extension cords in the garage and asked if they could use them. I said not to plug them in because they were really old and had gotten wet once. But they just wanted to use them to ties a ghost hanging from a tree and a hanging man. We found out first hand that these cords do not hold knots very well. I am really curious too about what kind of knots were used to secure the body. We had no luck trying regular common knots when we tried to hang the dummy. The knots would not hold, but kept loosening up on their own. And it was impossible to pull it really tight and have it stay. We tried it many times and gave up on the orange cords because the knots kept loosening up and I was afraid it was going to come loose and fall on somebody.

Carrington
07-29-2011, 09:06 PM
Is it OK to use CPR on someone that fell?
I would think not, but really don't know, my thinking is it might cause a lot of damage.
IMO

obmama
07-29-2011, 09:07 PM
I can't imagine anyone scheduling a big blowout like that, for that purpose, on a Tuesday night.

You're right. I meant to bring up the odd day for a party.

As for the guest list, no one came forward to say they were on it. They weren't popular in the neighborhood. That leaves rich Zonies with summer homes, so day of the week is irrelevant when you're on vacation.

I doubt it was a big bash, rather an intimate gathering, which would be appropriate for her second and his third marriage, if indeed it was an engagement party. Like I said, media reports of a marriage proposal seemed sketchy to me, and I was looking for clues to support its validity.

It's like a jigsaw puzzle with the edges missing and no picture to follow!

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 09:07 PM
Ocean..I'm still unsure of material used to tie Rebecca. I think almost anything rope cord belt..whatever..it would be difficult to tie oneself as tightly as we could tie someone else. Don't know if death is due to hanging..if it is who dunnit. I will believe she did it to her self.

When I first started reading this thread..you were looking more closely at suicide..so I started sleuthing hanging suicides. I talked to my brother a lot about suicides erotica asphixia ..I kept researching..everything everyone wrote. Then I could only come to one conclusion. Homicide. don't know why or who or exactly when it happened..cause coroner is not talking.

I do think she may have been hung by the electrical cord but I think another material bound her hands and feet. The binding on her feet were rather odd to me. Her legs and feet were separated yet the material still on the ankles.

I also think she has some type of dark blue scarf around her neck or it seems that way to me.

I am really not sure what happened here. I do believe she could have been in the right frame of mind to commit suicide. Women tend to take the guilt of the world on their shoulders when something traumatic happens but hanging herself outside does give me pause. Now if this had happened inside the mansion then maybe a suicide but I too have questions even though I am not firmly convinced either way now.

I just don't think it would take this long for the ME to determine if it was a homicide but maybe it does.

But it took the ME in California 7 months to finally come to the MOD on Lana Clarkson (Phil Spector) when he finally ruled it was not a suicide and was a homicide instead when that should have been the MOD from day one.

IMO

Paladine
07-29-2011, 09:10 PM
I thought I heard or read that the interior of the house where the balcony is located was suspicious, anyone remember this?

I posted that in the presser link posted it was asked what the interior room was like and police said, no comment...and reporters asked whose room it was: no comment...you might have found that suspicious...or hearing it maight have made you feel suspicious. Someone else might have a link but what I recall is 'violent' and 'bizzare'....no link though, so a big IIRC. :) And I might not. ;)

katydid23
07-29-2011, 09:14 PM
Several years ago I was helping my teen son and his friend decorate our front yard for Halloween. They found two long orange extension cords in the garage and asked if they could use them. I said not to plug them in because they were really old and had gotten wet once. But they just wanted to use them to tie a ghost hanging from a tree and tie a hanging man. We found out first hand that these cords do not hold knots very well. I am really curious too about what kind of knots were used to secure the body. We had no luck trying regular common knots when we tried to hang the dummy. The knots would not hold, but kept loosening up on their own. And it was impossible to pull it really tight and have it stay. We tried it many times and gave up on the orange cords because the knots kept loosening up and I was afraid it was going to come loose and fall on somebody.
ETA: maybe the weight of the body helped keep the knot tight. Our dummy was stuffed with newspaper so maybe it was not heavy enough to keep the knots tight.

Bonepile
07-29-2011, 09:16 PM
Just found this thread today, so I apologize in advance if someone else has already posted this.

StJohn: I was the one who originally posted the obit and the link to the video on page 7 #174 of this thread.

I also do not want you to miss page 9 #218 which is the original cemetery information as to the number of her gravesite and name of cemetery.

Thanks for posting the obit and video tribute again. We really do need to study those photos from the first one to the very last. As the old saying goes "pictures do speak louder than words" and "one picture is worth a thousand words" and I love to review her life, see her contagious smile and note who is NOT in that video tribute.

http://www.meierhoffer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/zahau_rebecca.swf

Thanks one more time for finding it and posting it. :)

justbetweenus
07-29-2011, 11:00 PM
There would be difference jjenny.

If they made her jump I would think there would be signs off a struggle. Rebecca just wouldn't say 'ok Ill jump" she would fight to live. That is just a normal instinct when self preservation kicks in and it has been said that she was in great physical shape. So imo they would find defensive wounds on her hands and arms as she wrestled with the person trying to tie her up and would see signs of a struggle in and near the balcony area.

She would not just stand there doing nothing while the person but a noose around her neck or bound her wrists and feet up.

I am sure LE has had to figure out before if a death was a suicide or a homicide and they look for certain factors that point in one direction or the other.

The knots also can be a key piece of evidence. They most likely will call in a knot expert to get their opinion whether she made the knots herself or they believe the particular knot was used by another with a specific background and trade.

IMO

BBM:

In my theory, she was in bed, and most likely sleeping when she was attacked. Her arms grabbed first and tied behind her. She didn't have a chance.

Paladine
07-29-2011, 11:03 PM
I do think she may have been hung by the electrical cord but I think another material bound her hands and feet. The binding on her feet were rather odd to me. Her legs and feet were separated yet the material still on the ankles.

I also think she has some type of dark blue scarf around her neck or it seems that way to me.

I am really not sure what happened here. I do believe she could have been in the right frame of mind to commit suicide. Women tend to take the guilt of the world on their shoulders when something traumatic happens but hanging herself outside does give me pause. Now if this had happened inside the mansion then maybe a suicide but I too have questions even though I am not firmly convinced either way now.

I just don't think it would take this long for the ME to determine if it was a homicide but maybe it does.

But it took the ME in California 7 months to finally come to the MOD on Lana Clarkson (Phil Spector) when he finally ruled it was not a suicide and was a homicide instead when that should have been the MOD from day one.

IMO

RBBM

In that presser link Curran said she was "suspended by rope" and bound/tied by something else, he did not elaborate on what it was...

Carrington
07-29-2011, 11:05 PM
Tuesday
All I can come with is a Birthday Party or a Wrinkle Injection Party.
Tupperware anyone......
IMO

pferrin
07-29-2011, 11:06 PM
Also Ocean..wanted to thank you for getting me to look closely at suicide. You had some really good arguments. So thanks. All of you are making me be much more thorough. Thanks to everyone.

Now I still feel homicide..but I have studied it more.

justbetweenus
07-29-2011, 11:16 PM
I do think she may have been hung by the electrical cord but I think another material bound her hands and feet. The binding on her feet were rather odd to me. Her legs and feet were separated yet the material still on the ankles.

I also think she has some type of dark blue scarf around her neck or it seems that way to me.

I am really not sure what happened here. I do believe she could have been in the right frame of mind to commit suicide. Women tend to take the guilt of the world on their shoulders when something traumatic happens but hanging herself outside does give me pause. Now if this had happened inside the mansion then maybe a suicide but I too have questions even though I am not firmly convinced either way now.

I just don't think it would take this long for the ME to determine if it was a homicide but maybe it does.

But it took the ME in California 7 months to finally come to the MOD on Lana Clarkson (Phil Spector) when he finally ruled it was not a suicide and was a homicide instead when that should have been the MOD from day one.

IMO

BBM:

I'm thinking opposite to you. Because they haven't ruled it a suicide yet, I believe it is more apt to be a homicide. Surely they know by now.

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 11:18 PM
BBM:

In my theory, she was in bed, and most likely sleeping when she was attacked. Her arms grabbed first and tied behind her. She didn't have a chance.

Right now since we really don't know any of the actual facts one theory is as good as any other one.

Who knows we may all be off the mark when a final resolution is determined.

Even if she was murdered we may have the wrong set of potential suspects in mind. May be someone LE has not even mentioned.

We really don't know what happened after midnight when she talked to her sister or who may have come there and perhaps was gone by the time she was found.

IM

scorekeeper
07-29-2011, 11:21 PM
How exactly would it be determined if it was homicide or suicide? No, seriously, what's the difference in terms of forensics? Of course we know longer hang people but hanging could be a method to kill someone. So if somebody tied a rope around her neck and made her jump, or if she tied a rope around her neck and jumped, how would anyone know the difference?

DNA, fingerprints???

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 11:22 PM
BBM:

I'm thinking opposite to you. Because they haven't ruled it a suicide yet, I believe it is more apt to be a homicide. Surely they know by now.

If they think it is a suicide I would think they would want to wait on the toxicology reports to come in and see if she was highly intoxicated on alcohol or drugs at the time which is common when people decide to take their lives. I guess it numbs their pain and gives them courage.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 11:24 PM
RBBM

In that presser link Curran said she was "suspended by rope" and bound/tied by something else, he did not elaborate on what it was...

Thank you for the information.

pferrin
07-29-2011, 11:27 PM
RBBM

In that presser link Curran said she was "suspended by rope" and bound/tied by something else, he did not elaborate on what it was...

I looked at the video and it did look orange and much like an extension cord

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 11:31 PM
Also Ocean..wanted to thank you for getting me to look closely at suicide. You had some really good arguments. So thanks. All of you are making me be much more thorough. Thanks to everyone.

Now I still feel homicide..but I have studied it more.

Awww, what a nice thing to say pferrin.

No, thank you for greatly contributing to this intriguing case. I think we all have enjoyed your posts and found them very interesting and thought provoking.

lauriej
07-29-2011, 11:31 PM
Tuesday
All I can come with is a Birthday Party or a Wrinkle Injection Party.
Tupperware anyone......
IMO

..i don't find anything "odd" about a party planned for a tuesday night.

..they were on holiday at their summer home ( not back in arizona on the "work-week" schedule ).

..it could have been a 'small' dinner party, or something larger/informal for their friends/acquaintences in coronado..

..we need more info/details on a LOT of aspects of this case...

Carrington
07-29-2011, 11:35 PM
What if they did find alcohol and/or drugs in her system.
Wouldn't that inhibit her ability to pull off this feat?

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 11:37 PM
I looked at the video and it did look orange and much like an extension cord

In one way it did. Although now I am not sure I am thinking it is an electrical cord now because that was said in the media. lol Power of suggestion. LOL!

But when I look at it laying on the ground its girth looks much thicker than than even a heavy duty extension cord. I thought it may be some type of nylon boat rope or something. One that is thicker in size than an extension cord.

It reminds me of the old macramé roping.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-29-2011, 11:42 PM
What if they did find alcohol and/or drugs in her system.
Wouldn't that inhibit her ability to pull off this feat?

IMO

It must not because it isn't uncommon for people who commit suicide to indulge themselves in alcohol or drugs or both beforehand.

If she had drugs or alcohol in her system I am sure LE would have seized any bottles they saw open and pill bottles they saw to see who's fingerprints were on them if it comes back positive for either one.

IMO

scorekeeper
07-29-2011, 11:49 PM
It must not because it isn't uncommon for people who commit suicide to indulge themselves in alcohol or drugs or both beforehand. If she had drugs or alcohol in her system I am sure LE would have seized any bottles they saw open and pill bottles they saw to see who's fingerprints were on them if it comes back positive for either one.

IMO

BBM

I can't imagine being "high" or "drunk" and getting into the position she was found (hands tied behind back; binding on ankles or feet tied together, etc).
I could think of "easier" ways to commit suicide if under the influence...

IzzyBlanche
07-29-2011, 11:52 PM
Well after all police did describe her death as "violent." So how does that jive with suicide?


As I understand it, suicide no matter what the method falls under the definition of violent death, meaning a death caused by some sort of injury inflicted by a human (even the same human receiving the injury) rather than by natural causes.

My understanding may be wrong, of course.

lauriej
07-29-2011, 11:54 PM
BBM:

In my theory, she was in bed, and most likely sleeping when she was attacked. Her arms grabbed first and tied behind her. She didn't have a chance.

..people from the fitness club she worked out at have said that she was in great shape, and very strong.

..if someone attacked her, i would think they'd have some pretty major bruises etc. from her attacking back, with her feet. there would definitely be signs of a struggle.

..and who knows, maybe there was, LE isn't giving us too much hard info------while they await autopsy/forensic/tox reports.

CuriousAmazon
07-29-2011, 11:57 PM
Just found this thread today, so I apologize in advance if someone else has already posted this. I am attaching a link to a video tribute from the funeral home in St Joseph, MO, where Rebecca Zahau was buried (it takes a long time to load, so be patient).


StJohn, I recall seeing the link mentioned previous, but a big thanks, now I don't have to go searching for it. I actually wanted to view this at my home computer.

Wendy101
07-29-2011, 11:58 PM
I wonder if it was "normal" for Rebecca to be speaking with her sister at midnight? That phone call everything was fine, and Rebecca was going to update her about Maxie "tomorrow".

cluciano63
07-30-2011, 12:02 AM
Maybe they plan to rule it a suicide if no other DNA at all is found on any of the items used to tie up Rebecca? I don't know how they can, really, otherwise. And if they do find other DNA, it still would not really prove murder, but make it murkier yet...

pferrin
07-30-2011, 12:06 AM
I wonder if it was "normal" for Rebecca to be speaking with her sister at midnight? That phone call everything was fine, and Rebecca was going to update her about Maxie "tomorrow".

Hi Wendy..I wonder if it was midnight san diego time or midnight missouri time..where her sis lives. I cant take credit for this thought ...one of our amazing sleuthers here came up with this. It might be 10:00 in california..not sure.

IzzyBlanche
07-30-2011, 12:10 AM
Maybe they plan to rule it a suicide if no other DNA at all is found on any of the items used to tie up Rebecca? I don't know how they can, really, otherwise.

Even the lack of anyone else's DNA on those items doesn't prove suicide. The killer could have worn gloves.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 12:21 AM
There are aspects of this event that one must take into consideration. The words used and spoken, the context in which it was used and by whom.

Many are lead astray by the context of the word hanged used by the brother and him implying it to present a scene of a suicide. Everyone is jumping to the conclusion and following what the brother has stated but his statement may not be true. No one saw her hanging only the after math of his action "revival attempt".

The next point is the LE usage of suspended instead of hanged. That is a different word that describes a different manner of something in the air. It is an operative word that sets a different perspective.

The usage of bound and its description. Once again you have to interpret the word and its usage. Bound but not tied together. Example. Love cuffs (the fluffy kind) with spring clips can bind each ankle but not bind them together.

So don't just listen but listen to the word usage.

It is my opinion that the scene was staged based on a few things. (From the Ariel photo)

1. The orange cord or tether is a pointer that trails along. The feet was the lead and the loose end follows indicating the path or route in which the feet traveled. The cord trails rightward and away from the indicated hang point (Table). This means the brother would have carried her to the far right double the length on the cord and walk back for it to trail back to its resting point. If the table was used in either the hanging or body retrieval the brothers motion would have been a 180 turn and the cord would have been in a closer proximity trailing from the direction of the body.

2. The body was dumped and not placed as a rescuer would need to prepare the body/person for reviving (CPR). Her body was placed with arms in the rear in an unaltered state similar to a dumping and again the cord points to the direction traveled.

The inconsistencies are due to after thought and staging which does not coincide with physics and natural events.

What you must do is discern between the staged articles and natural articles.

There is no witness to an actual hanging only the word of the brother and it seems that many are taking it as factual. She was face down when the police arrived so the hanging can be questioned.

Inobu

scorekeeper
07-30-2011, 12:30 AM
Inobu,

Very interesting 1st post. Definitely is very thought provoking.

Are you a chemist? (just kidding)

:welcome:

jjenny
07-30-2011, 12:31 AM
I wonder if it was "normal" for Rebecca to be speaking with her sister at midnight? That phone call everything was fine, and Rebecca was going to update her about Maxie "tomorrow".

Considering that little boy was dying in the hospital, one wouldn't expect for their conversation to be "normal" anyway.

jjenny
07-30-2011, 12:32 AM
..people from the fitness club she worked out at have said that she was in great shape, and very strong.

..if someone attacked her, i would think they'd have some pretty major bruises etc. from her attacking back, with her feet. there would definitely be signs of a struggle.

..and who knows, maybe there was, LE isn't giving us too much hard info------while they await autopsy/forensic/tox reports.

That depends on what she was doing. For instance, she could have been asleep.

jjenny
07-30-2011, 12:34 AM
If they think it is a suicide I would think they would want to wait on the toxicology reports to come in and see if she was highly intoxicated on alcohol or drugs at the time which is common when people decide to take their lives. I guess it numbs their pain and gives them courage.

IMO

I am not sure how one can be "highly intoxicated" yet manage to bind their feet and their hands behind their back, then hang themselves.

Wendy101
07-30-2011, 12:37 AM
Considering that little boy was dying in the hospital, one wouldn't expect for their conversation to be "normal" anyway.

What I was meaning was the time normal for them. I don't like using the word "normal" because all humans have their own normal... so that is why I put quotations around it. Hope I am saying that right :)

Inobu
07-30-2011, 12:42 AM
Inobu,

Very interesting 1st post. Definitely is very thought provoking.

Are you a chemist? (just kidding)

:welcome:

No, I slept at Holiday Inn Express last night.

Had to post here as this case is really interesting as well as this forum with good post so I thought I would join.

Thanks

Inobu

jjenny
07-30-2011, 12:42 AM
What I was meaning was the time normal for them. I don't like using the word "normal" because all humans have their own normal... so that is why I put quotations around it. Hope I am saying that right :)

I understood what you meant. But because the child was in the hospital, I wouldn't expect them to be talking at their normal time anyway.

scorekeeper
07-30-2011, 12:48 AM
Are there 5 star hotels close to the hospital? Do you think JS had a room? I would much rather be 5 minutes from the hospital instead of 30 minutes (I think this is close to the time given from the mansion to hospital).

Remember RN boarded Ocean (the dog) on Tuesday morning.

Wonder why she went home, if JS had a room........speculation

pferrin
07-30-2011, 12:48 AM
Inobu. glad you are here. Actually this group hasused much discernment over the last many days and you are bringing added insight. Thank you. Your explanation of cord/rope and trailing continues my belief in this homicide.

I was looking at photos and there appears to be a great deal of dark bruising beneath the neck..any ideas anyone?

IzzyBlanche
07-30-2011, 12:49 AM
I am not sure how one can be "highly intoxicated" yet manage to bind their feet and their hands behind their back, then hang themselves.

Exactly--highly intoxicated people who commit suicide use simpler methods.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 12:53 AM
Well after all police did describe her death as "violent." So how does that jive with suicide?

Taking LE operative words is the only way one can follow along and they are pointing out facts that they find.

The context of "violent"... is it the violent nature of death by hanging or bodily violence inflected on her.

Inobu

scorekeeper
07-30-2011, 12:58 AM
Inobu. glad you are here. Actually this group hasused much discernment over the last many days and you are bringing added insight. Thank you. Your explanation of cord/rope and trailing continues my belief in this homicide.

I was looking at photos and there appears to be a great deal of dark bruising beneath the neck..any ideas anyone?

BBM

Heck, from the pictures I downloaded (on her back), I can't tell...the more I enlarge them the blurrier they get.....plus the eyes aren't as good as they used to be...

I see the "blue scarf" floating out to the side...I don't know what the "white" thingy is at the top of the picture

If she was on her back initially....when she was turned over...is the darker part some of her hair???

pferrin
07-30-2011, 01:14 AM
I have stayed in hotel rooms near the hospital when hubby was very ill. I believe that Rebecca was staying at home dealing with JS brothers arrival. Perhaps getting GS to the airport.

She did tell her sis that she would be going to hospital on wednesday. According to ValHall,..her source said RN had been to hospital on tuesday..and I listened to dispatch and police and know that officer took her on monday after Maxies accident.

The thigh area on RN looks to have livor begining IMO.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 01:22 AM
Scorkeeper..The pics from fox are a bit blurry. I got out my jewelers glasses and look at RN with them and noticed below the neck has very dark coloration. it is the first time I noticed it. I was looking at the trailing of the cord/rope. It is below scarf area.

IMO dont think it is her hair.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 01:33 AM
I had not thought about the rope/cord trailing and its importance. Another piece of evidence to point to homicide. Since the brother was the only one there when police arrived and since his story was that he cut RN down..we know he has involvement.IMO

Charlie09
07-30-2011, 01:52 AM
Someone asked about 5 star hotels on hotel circle. No, they are family and business traveler hotels. The nicer more resort hotels are going to be in La Jolla and maybe some downtown???

pferrin
07-30-2011, 02:08 AM
If JS brother AS is involved what could be possible motives?

Cover up a sexual assault?
Jealousy of brothers success?
Helping JS with crime?
Are there any reasons he might help DS commit this crime?

I agree with the retired SDPD detective that said..Someone was very angry..

MsFacetious
07-30-2011, 02:10 AM
If they think it is a suicide I would think they would want to wait on the toxicology reports to come in and see if she was highly intoxicated on alcohol or drugs at the time which is common when people decide to take their lives. I guess it numbs their pain and gives them courage.

IMO

This is true.... unless of course there is such a large amount of drugs or alcohol in her system... that it would have incapacitated her.
That she would have been unconscious and unable to tie a knot, put herself in a noose, put herself over the balcony or kick a table out from under her.
There have been a few cases where a suicide/accident was proven to be murder because they wouldn't have been able to do what was done due to the level of drugs they were given.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 02:21 AM
When you look at the evidence that LE took (Table, Carpet and bags) it proves that they have most of what the need.

The carpet indicates another point of interest inside the home. The bags reduces the size of the articles of interest and the table is a deductive piece if evidence to collaborate if there was a suicide hanging.

What little info I'm going to make my guess:

Assailant:
Brother

Motive:
Nephew's death

Reason
I think he was trying to force a confession into what happened to his nephew. (LE violence comment). He may have gone too far resulting in her death. (Criminal act)
Supportive info
The loud music to drown out the event, the carpet showing another area of interest were the death may have occurred, the inconsistencies in the suicide area, revival attempt and body placement.

Note
I don't think either of the parents were present or directly involved.
I don"t think any sexual activity with the brother occurred but the nudity is a confusion factor which may have been added in the staging.

That seems to fit as the best probability.

Inobu

pferrin
07-30-2011, 02:33 AM
Why would AS think that Maxie's fall was anything other than an accident? Certainly the killer would realize that a nude body would draw more attention to this situation...unless she was nude when he confronted her?

Carrington
07-30-2011, 02:40 AM
Why would AS think that Maxie's fall was anything other than an accident? Certainly the killer would realize that a nude body would draw more attention to this situation...unless she was nude when he confronted her?

I can't find the exact answer I was googling for.
Anyway, my as of this moment theory is: Maxie could have been saved if Rebecca had not moved him. (CPR) which she did.

Blame

IMO

Charlie09
07-30-2011, 02:40 AM
When you look at the evidence that LE took (Table, Carpet and bags) it proves that they have most of what the need.

The carpet indicates another point of interest inside the home. The bags reduces the size of the articles of interest and the table is a deductive piece if evidence to collaborate if there was a suicide hanging.

What little info I'm going to make my guess:

Assailant:
Brother

Motive:
Nephew's death

Reason
I think he was trying to force a confession into what happened to his nephew. (LE violence comment). He may have gone too far resulting in her death. (Criminal act)
Supportive info
The loud music to drown out the event, the carpet showing another area of interest were the death may have occurred, the inconsistencies in the suicide area, revival attempt and body placement.

Note
I don't think either of the parents were present or directly involved.
I don"t think any sexual activity with the brother occurred but the nudity is a confusion factor which may have been added in the staging.

That seems to fit as the best probability.

Inobu

He could also be convenient scapegoat for powerful, wealthy brother, with spinners by the boatload.

I realize that if the JS said anything everyone would be tearing it apart bit by bit, but I think the fact that the only thing that has been publicly released is by a PR firm about HIS image (and domestic abuse) speaks volumes.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 02:48 AM
Why would AS think that Maxie's fall was anything other than an accident? Certainly the killer would realize that a nude body would draw more attention to this situation...unless she was nude when he confronted her?

It is easy for us "outsider" to accept an accident but the people with emotional connection wants to know exactly what happened. Also the natural reaction is the placement of blame. In the report it only says a fall no detail into how it occurred.

We have adult supervision of children to prevent and guard children from harm when the accident occurs what is the first reaction? Search for or seek fault.

It appeared that the police took two women in for questioning to determined what happened and no details were ever given or any that I have found.

This would drive someone involved to want to know why? and only the people present in the child's death were the women and they could not or did not give the exact answer.

Inobu

MizStery
07-30-2011, 03:05 AM
It is easy for us "outsider" to accept an accident but the people with emotional connection wants to know exactly what happened. Also the natural reaction is the placement of blame. In the report it only says a fall no detail into how it occurred.

We have adult supervision of children to prevent and guard children from harm when the accident occurs what is the first reaction? Search for or seek fault.

It appeared that the police took two women in for questioning to determined what happened and no details were ever given or any that I have found.

This would drive someone involved to want to know why? and only the people present in the child's death were the women and they could not or did not give the exact answer.
Inobu

Another clue (as far as I know) is AS is the last known person to see RN alive.

This is just my opinion.

Good night to all.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 03:15 AM
Another clue (as far as I know) is AS is the last known person to see RN alive.

This is just my opinion.

Good night to all.

You are right and here's how it really works.

The killer is the last person to see someone alive and the first person to see them dead.

The question is, What was AS? 1st or 2nd of the latter.

Me too. Good night

Inobu

Charlie09
07-30-2011, 03:25 AM
Another clue (as far as I know) is AS is the last known person to see RN alive.

This is just my opinion.

Good night to all.

I somehow missed this tidbit.

lauriej
07-30-2011, 03:56 AM
It is easy for us "outsider" to accept an accident but the people with emotional connection wants to know exactly what happened. Also the natural reaction is the placement of blame. In the report it only says a fall no detail into how it occurred.

We have adult supervision of children to prevent and guard children from harm when the accident occurs what is the first reaction? Search for or seek fault.

It appeared that the police took two women in for questioning to determined what happened and no details were ever given or any that I have found.

This would drive someone involved to want to know why? and only the people present in the child's death were the women and they could not or did not give the exact answer.

Inobu

..that's the problem--------we DON'T have a lot of details to go on at all.

..we don't know that LE questioned rebecca and GS "and no details were given", or that they couldn't "give an exact answer".

..we do know that LE took rebecca and GS in the police car to the hospital, and not "in for questioning".( per:"pferrin" and radioreference).

..i have a hard time believing that anyone would blame an adult (rebecca) for not "supervising" a 6 year old-----b/c an accident occurred at the time. ( and then murder her b/c of it).

..a 6 year old is quite old enough to play indoors without constant supervision.

..we need further info from LE. basically all of the news articles we've had to date were a re-hash of the same old same old as far as the crime scene goes------once they get forensics/autopsy/tox reports, and release them---we'll have a lot more to base theories on.

lauriej
07-30-2011, 04:02 AM
Another clue (as far as I know) is AS is the last known person to see RN alive.

This is just my opinion.

Good night to all.

..what makes you think that? what i know is that rebecca's sister was the last one to talk to her------i've never seen anything to say that adam SAW her ?

10-6Mom
07-30-2011, 06:41 AM
Maybe they plan to rule it a suicide if no other DNA at all is found on any of the items used to tie up Rebecca? I don't know how they can, really, otherwise. And if they do find other DNA, it still would not really prove murder, but make it murkier yet...

This could be the case, but IMO no DNA or just RN's does not convince me this is a suicide!! IMO LE/ME have determined by now if this is a homicide or a suicide. I feel they are getting all of their ducks in a row or right now this is a HUGE circumstantial evidence case and they are trying to get as much evidence to support what actually happened. I have said before, it blows me away how tight lipped the involved parties are in this case. With the players involved in this case LE has one chance to get this correct! jMO

CocoChanel
07-30-2011, 08:26 AM
It is easy for us "outsider" to accept an accident but the people with emotional connection wants to know exactly what happened. Also the natural reaction is the placement of blame. In the report it only says a fall no detail into how it occurred.

We have adult supervision of children to prevent and guard children from harm when the accident occurs what is the first reaction? Search for or seek fault.

(....respectfully snipped by Coco)

Inobu

I know some feel that assigning blame and seeking punishment for who's at fault is not what Maxie's family would be concerned about in the days after his terrible accident and before his actual death. But I think that depends on individual personalities. In my own family there are some of us who expect nothing bad to ever happen, and when it does, someone must have done something wrong. Even something as minor as spilt milk has those with a blame-seeking personality pointing fingers and chastising those who's ineptness caused the milk to spill. I do not mean to equate this child's tragic accident with spilt milk. Just pointing out that a competitive and vengeful personality WOULD be searching for who 'should have' prevented the terrible accident from happening in the first place.

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 09:16 AM
I am not sure how one can be "highly intoxicated" yet manage to bind their feet and their hands behind their back, then hang themselves.

I honestly have no idea either but the death investigators do seem to think toxicology results can be a factor in suicides.

This morning I read this article. Now they did declare his MOD as a suicide quickly but they also added this.

Los Angeles County Assistant Coroner Chief Ed Winter told The Associated Press in an email Friday that the 42-year-old Irabu died by hanging himself, and the mode was suicide. He said Irabu did not leave a note.

Winter said an autopsy was performed Friday, but it will take six to eight weeks for the results of toxicology tests, which could shed further light on the circumstances of Irabu's death.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6817158/coroner-says-former-new-york-yankee-pitcher-hideki-irabu-hanged-self?campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 09:26 AM
Why would AS think that Maxie's fall was anything other than an accident? Certainly the killer would realize that a nude body would draw more attention to this situation...unless she was nude when he confronted her?

This is what has had my head shaking from the beginning.

If someone actually murdered her why would they stage a suicide that looks more like a homicide?

Why go through the process of binding her feet and wrists? Why put her outside hanging over the balcony at all so that it can be labeled violent and bizarre? If they wanted to stage a suicide they could have forced her at gunpoint to take pills and she would have overdosed inside the mansion.

While the suicide is odd it is even odder to me that someone would stage a homicide as a suicide this way.

imo

IzzyBlanche
07-30-2011, 10:07 AM
I honestly have no idea either but the death investigators do seem to think toxicology results can be a factor in suicides.

This morning I read this article. Now they did declare his MOD as a suicide quickly but they also added this.

Los Angeles County Assistant Coroner Chief Ed Winter told The Associated Press in an email Friday that the 42-year-old Irabu died by hanging himself, and the mode was suicide. He said Irabu did not leave a note.

Winter said an autopsy was performed Friday, but it will take six to eight weeks for the results of toxicology tests, which could shed further light on the circumstances of Irabu's death.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6817158/coroner-says-former-new-york-yankee-pitcher-hideki-irabu-hanged-self?campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines


But did he also bind his hands and feet?

jjenny
07-30-2011, 10:26 AM
I know some feel that assigning blame and seeking punishment for who's at fault is not what Maxie's family would be concerned about in the days after his terrible accident and before his actual death. But I think that depends on individual personalities. In my own family there are some of us who expect nothing bad to ever happen, and when it does, someone must have done something wrong. Even something as minor as spilt milk has those with a blame-seeking personality pointing fingers and chastising those who's ineptness caused the milk to spill. I do not mean to equate this child's tragic accident with spilt milk. Just pointing out that a competitive and vengeful personality WOULD be searching for who 'should have' prevented the terrible accident from happening in the first place.

ITA. Even if child's death was a tragic accident, doesn't mean somebody couldn't have blamed RN because she was a caregiver at the time.

Wendy101
07-30-2011, 10:27 AM
..that's the problem--------we DON'T have a lot of details to go on at all.

..we don't know that LE questioned rebecca and GS "and no details were given", or that they couldn't "give an exact answer".

..we do know that LE took rebecca and GS in the police car to the hospital, and not "in for questioning".( per:"pferrin" and radioreference).

..i have a hard time believing that anyone would blame an adult (rebecca) for not "supervising" a 6 year old-----b/c an accident occurred at the time. ( and then murder her b/c of it).

..a 6 year old is quite old enough to play indoors without constant supervision.

..we need further info from LE. basically all of the news articles we've had to date were a re-hash of the same old same old as far as the crime scene goes------once they get forensics/autopsy/tox reports, and release them---we'll have a lot more to base theories on.

What if he was a special needs child and required extreme supervision...

peace9274
07-30-2011, 10:46 AM
..that's the problem--------we DON'T have a lot of details to go on at all.

..we don't know that LE questioned rebecca and GS "and no details were given", or that they couldn't "give an exact answer".

..we do know that LE took rebecca and GS in the police car to the hospital, and not "in for questioning".( per:"pferrin" and radioreference).

..i have a hard time believing that anyone would blame an adult (rebecca) for not "supervising" a 6 year old-----b/c an accident occurred at the time. ( and then murder her b/c of it).

..a 6 year old is quite old enough to play indoors without constant supervision.

..we need further info from LE. basically all of the news articles we've had to date were a re-hash of the same old same old as far as the crime scene goes------once they get forensics/autopsy/tox reports, and release them---we'll have a lot more to base theories on.

BBM

Anger, one of the stages of grief, could very well turn to rage.
It could very well be displaced anger/rage, in this case.


Taken from Dr Kubler-Ross' 5 Stages of Grief:
"2. Anger Stage.
The grieving person may then be furious at the person who inflicted the hurt (even if she's dead),
or at the world, for letting it happen. He may be angry with himself for letting the event take place,
even if, realistically, nothing could have stopped it."

Also:
"Grief And Stress

During grief, it is common to have many conflicting feelings. Sorrow, anger, loneliness, sadness, shame,
anxiety, and guilt often accompany serious losses. Having so many strong feelings can be very stressful.

Yet denying the feelings, and failing to work through the five stages of grief, is harder on the body and
mind than going through them. When people suggest "looking on the bright side," or other ways of cutting
off difficult feelings, the grieving person may feel pressured to hide or deny these emotions. Then it will take
longer for healing to take place."

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 11:27 AM
But did he also bind his hands and feet?

I don't know. I don't think they listed any particulars about his hanging death.

But my point of linking the article was to show they do take into consideration toxicology results and enter that into their equation.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 11:28 AM
I wonder if it was "normal" for Rebecca to be speaking with her sister at midnight? That phone call everything was fine, and Rebecca was going to update her about Maxie "tomorrow".


It is easy for us "outsider" to accept an accident but the people with emotional connection wants to know exactly what happened. Also the natural reaction is the placement of blame. In the report it only says a fall no detail into how it occurred.

We have adult supervision of children to prevent and guard children from harm when the accident occurs what is the first reaction? Search for or seek fault.

It appeared that the police took two women in for questioning to determined what happened and no details were ever given or any that I have found.

This would drive someone involved to want to know why? and only the people present in the child's death were the women and they could not or did not give the exact answer.

Inobu

On tuesday evening Maxie had not been pronounce dead...He was still having tests done???

The police did go to the JS home when the call about Maxies call came in. They took RN and the other female in the home to meet with JS ..he had already arrived at the hospital. Then police took the females home.

I was listening to scanner archives..I think he stayed at the home 15-30 min at max. I do recall it was not long. Police were satisfied that this was an accident ..until RN death.

I am struck with the violent death..The nudity..anger..in your face display. Why the nudity..if this was about RN allowing Maxie to get hurt then bindings..display..location.... goes way past anger that Maxie being injured.

This IMO was to send a message. RN was dead so who is this message meant for?? There is more to this story. imo

MizStery
07-30-2011, 11:35 AM
..what makes you think that? what i know is that rebecca's sister was the last one to talk to her------i've never seen anything to say that adam SAW her ?

Good Morning Laurie,

Quote:
Originally Posted by MizStery
Herding Cats .....Well,if we find out AS was the last person to see RN alive, I have to say you have the best theory.

Has there been a presser that says who was at the mansion Tuesday night? To my knowlege there are conflicting accounts as to who (AS & RN & ?)and what was transpiring(loud noise,party,no party?) at the mansion the night in question.I did read a post on this thread that AS was the last know person to
have seen RN but do not recall a link??




Originally post by Melanie
The presser on CBS (20+ minutes) includes the statement from LE that AS was the last person to see RN on Tuesday evening. You can find this a couple pages back on the upthread.

Thanks!

Mel

pferrin
07-30-2011, 11:37 AM
I do agree with all the stages of grief..but max was not dead yet. perhaps they were grieving wat could have been. The anger here is difficult to figure out since we dont know any of the parties personally.

I can say how I would have reacted..but not how this group did.

SunnieRN
07-30-2011, 11:45 AM
There are aspects of this event that one must take into consideration. The words used and spoken, the context in which it was used and by whom.

Many are lead astray by the context of the word hanged used by the brother and him implying it to present a scene of a suicide. Everyone is jumping to the conclusion and following what the brother has stated but his statement may not be true. No one saw her hanging only the after math of his action "revival attempt".

The next point is the LE usage of suspended instead of hanged. That is a different word that describes a different manner of something in the air. It is an operative word that sets a different perspective.

The usage of bound and its description. Once again you have to interpret the word and its usage. Bound but not tied together. Example. Love cuffs (the fluffy kind) with spring clips can bind each ankle but not bind them together.

So don't just listen but listen to the word usage.

It is my opinion that the scene was staged based on a few things. (From the Ariel photo)

1. The orange cord or tether is a pointer that trails along. The feet was the lead and the loose end follows indicating the path or route in which the feet traveled. The cord trails rightward and away from the indicated hang point (Table). This means the brother would have carried her to the far right double the length on the cord and walk back for it to trail back to its resting point. If the table was used in either the hanging or body retrieval the brothers motion would have been a 180 turn and the cord would have been in a closer proximity trailing from the direction of the body.

2. The body was dumped and not placed as a rescuer would need to prepare the body/person for reviving (CPR). Her body was placed with arms in the rear in an unaltered state similar to a dumping and again the cord points to the direction traveled.

The inconsistencies are due to after thought and staging which does not coincide with physics and natural events.

What you must do is discern between the staged articles and natural articles.

There is no witness to an actual hanging only the word of the brother and it seems that many are taking it as factual. She was face down when the police arrived so the hanging can be questioned.

Inobu


:seeya: Hi and welcome to Websleuths!!! It truly is 'all about the words' right now. I read a report that stated, 'hung 'with' a rope around her neck', vs hung 'by' a rope around her neck. To me this was an important clue, as we don't have a lot of actual information right now.

Looking forward to more of your posts.



RBBM

In that presser link Curran said she was "suspended by rope" and bound/tied by something else, he did not elaborate on what it was...

Suspended is also different than being hung. My gosh, this is getting murkier and more confusing!

Paladine
07-30-2011, 11:46 AM
I know some feel that assigning blame and seeking punishment for who's at fault is not what Maxie's family would be concerned about in the days after his terrible accident and before his actual death. But I think that depends on individual personalities. In my own family there are some of us who expect nothing bad to ever happen, and when it does, someone must have done something wrong. Even something as minor as spilt milk has those with a blame-seeking personality pointing fingers and chastising those who's ineptness caused the milk to spill. I do not mean to equate this child's tragic accident with spilt milk. Just pointing out that a competitive and vengeful personality WOULD be searching for who 'should have' prevented the terrible accident from happening in the first place.

My late husband had a spinal cord injury while away at work, c6-c7. I drove 5 hours in the middle of the night to get there as fast as possible because DR.'s told me on the phone he may at die any time...

I arrived to him FLAILING about, albeit in a useless 'neck brace'...I knew it couldn't be good for his injury, talked to the nurses, and they pretty much wrote off my concerns: whatever damage is done, is done, they said. I even went to the head Neuro who gave me the same line.

We had him airlifted, neck still not surgically stabilized, to a hospital nearer our home...they wouldn't stabilize it THERE because they said eventually he'll be moved, anyways, so they wanted the transfer...3 days later, still not stabilized...no bed ready at the new hospital, yet...

Then we endured a BUMPY ambulance ride to the new hospital, after getting off the plane, I tell you, I felt lke ripping someones head off. EVERY bump made me worry about further damage...I tried to keep him still...

I learned later, that it IS important to stabilize the neck early...and securely. And I learned that the first 24-48 hours are important and can tell wheather it might be a 'complete' or 'incomplete' injury, (hate to be graphic but I recall it has something to do with the response of the rectum, too??) Maxies MRI might have been for head injury but it could also be for spinal injury...my husbands was complete...and I wonder how much that flailing around he did IN HOSPITAL had to do with that.

My point is...I felt rage at this first set of nurses and doctors...I felt they didn't do all they could have done...now, I feel it was because of incompetence and indifference. But if I had personal issues with these people underneath all of that, as DS, AS, or JS might have had with RN...? Well, good thing I was 5 hours away, at that point.

imo, ime

CuriousAmazon
07-30-2011, 12:33 PM
This IMO was to send a message. RN was dead so who is this message meant for?? There is more to this story. imo

I agree as this is my other theory. A professional (hit)
not from DS/JS, but rather someone who had a personal vendetta against JS. I see a "man" involved in the actual crime, not a female based on the materials used i.e. orange power cord... Just one of my many theories...

peace9274
07-30-2011, 12:51 PM
I do agree with all the stages of grief..but max was not dead yet. perhaps they were grieving wat could have been. The anger here is difficult to figure out since we dont know any of the parties personally.

I can say how I would have reacted..but not how this group did.

But, as far as I know, he was brain dead & probably being kept alive for organ
donations & possibly until all family members said their good-byes.

DS prolly knew that he was not going to make it, before RN's death.

Years ago, I worked at Los Angeles Children's Hospital & was involved in many "code blues".
Many times, after we had tried to save a child at length, & after he was pronounced dead,
one of the docs would inform us that the child was an organ donar & that s/he needed to
continue to be on life support until the child's organs could be donated.

Also, we kept my mother on life support until all family members arrived, some from very far
away, despite the docs telling us that she was brain dead & nothing more could be done.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 12:52 PM
I agree as this is my other theory. A professional (hit)
not from DS/JS, but rather someone who had a personal vendetta against JS. I see a "man" involved in the actual crime, not a female based on the materials used i.e. orange power cord... Just one of my many theories...

I agree with may be a hit. I have even started looking at other cultures..ie saudi..to see if this could be a revenge killing. We dont know who had disputes with JS..I have heard many times..dont mess with a man's money.

It is interesting that the killing happened when JS was not at home and the dog in the kennel. Coincidence??? I get stuck there too. If this was because of JS.. many would take this out on him directly. IF RN had been his wife..hit would make sense.

To me this was very personal. When my brother looked at the photos of RN..he said "somebody was PISSED OFF." I keep coming back to this being around JS, AS, DS.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 12:52 PM
Very good discussions......

To get a better understanding we can use the cliche "It is what it is". In this case a suicide is a suicide and a homicide is a homicide. The events that lead up to the death will indicate which it which.

If we witness a person jumping from a bridge (no one pushing him) the conclusion of a suicide can be made easily. If there are no eye witnesses then information is needed to validate the claim of suicide.

Going back to the cliche a suicide would/should have been cut and dry with a note and a simple death. Often you see the event occur in a closet or such. The more elaborate it gets the further away from the norm it goes. At a certain point past the norm deception starts to take form. When deception is identified the scales starts to tip to homicide and the many different facets (Murder, criminal and so forth).

In RN's case the initial investigation starts off questionable in that the scene was altered which compromises the investigation (no one saw RN in the natural position of death.) This starts the questioning of events.

Questions are further induced by AS claim to make a revival attempt with the found positioning of RN questioning his account not to mention the nudity of her body this takes the case off the norm.

I don't think someone set out to murder her, It does not look like she was in a state of depression to commit suicide which leads to the potential of an accidental death and a cover up that followed.

Here is the point that brings AS first in the pool of suspects. A body that has been hung has certain conditions in place which some of those conditions are visually disturbing and indicates death. For AS to think that he could have revived her he had to have been near the TOD.

A jump to death would have broken the neck and the visual signs of death would have been present negating the need for revival.

These factors plays an important part and the forensic results will validate the true cause of death and the inconsistencies be eliminated.

I think LE has the scene mapped out they just need the forensic to collaborate it and it does have a twist other wise they would have stated the facts long ago.

Inobu

pferrin
07-30-2011, 12:57 PM
But, as far as I know, he was brain dead & probably being kept alive for organ
donations & possibly until all family members said their good-byes.

DS prolly knew that he was not going to make it, before RN's death.

Years ago, I worked at Los Angeles Children's Hospital & was involved in many "code blues".
Many times, after we had tried to save a child at length, & after he was pronounced dead,
one of the docs would inform us that the child was an organ donar & that s/he needed to
continue to be on life support until the child's organs could be donated.

Also, we kept my mother on life support until all family members arrived, some from very far
away, despite the docs telling us that she was brain dead & nothing more could be done.

I completely agree. I can see that DS would have enough anger and rage for this crime. Her history with her ex and RN was challenging at best..IMO.

Even though I would not try to kill someone with an extension cord..I might use one to try to cover a crime. IE bindings on hands and feet.

justice be served
07-30-2011, 01:04 PM
This brings up a question in my mind. Between DS or JS being the perpetrator, wouldn't it be easier physically for JS to overcome RN than for DS to do so? RN looks to be stronger than many men and I think she would have fought hard. Also, JS could have come over for a "talk" and it lead to other things more conveniently. If DS had entered the house/her room, RN would have been more suspect of her and immediately been defensive of the encounter?

Just my opinion.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 01:04 PM
Professional hits are quick and leaves very few clue behind. Thug hits are messy and not only leaves a trail of clues it creates a list of suspects.

If so many questions open up, Who called it? Why in the house? and it takes up back to the root cause driver "blame".

Inobu

pferrin
07-30-2011, 01:17 PM
This brings up a question in my mind. Between DS or JS being the perpetrator, wouldn't it be easier physically for JS to overcome RN than for DS to do so? RN looks to be stronger than many men and I think she would have fought hard. Also, JS could have come over for a "talk" and it lead to other things more conveniently. If DS had entered the house/her room, RN would have been more suspect of her and immediately been defensive of the encounter?

Just my opinion.

Actually to me RN looks pretty small. It might be easier physically for JS to do this crime however his motives might be different than DS. Scorned woman ..fall of darling son.

If DS had sneaked in the house while RN was sleeping..We just dont have enough facts.

The display of body and bindings and nudity ..and knots are key.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 01:20 PM
I agree Inobu this would take way too long to be a hit. And many hits are not traceable because they are exacted so quickly. So little evidence is left.

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 01:26 PM
Exactly--highly intoxicated people who commit suicide use simpler methods.

That really isn't true though and it doesn't have anything to do with a simpler method they may have chosen. The methods chosen can run the gambit.

Being under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time often is a key factor for those who contemplate and carry out any suicides, period.

Many who attempt suicide are under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Be aware of this signal. Many attempts are impulsive acts, so be aware of the following warning signs.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/13945-suicide/#ixzz1TbshX2Bg

time
07-30-2011, 01:30 PM
Professional hits are quick and leaves very few clue behind. Thug hits are messy and not only leaves a trail of clues it creates a list of suspects.

If so many questions open up, Who called it? Why in the house? and it takes up back to the root cause driver "blame".

Inobu


I find the bolded comment from you very interesting. "Hits', I believe, are often dismissed because they don't look like the clean bullet precisely aimed.

time
07-30-2011, 01:35 PM
There are aspects of this event that one must take into consideration. The words used and spoken, the context in which it was used and by whom.

Many are lead astray by the context of the word hanged used by the brother and him implying it to present a scene of a suicide. Everyone is jumping to the conclusion and following what the brother has stated but his statement may not be true. No one saw her hanging only the after math of his action "revival attempt".

The next point is the LE usage of suspended instead of hanged. That is a different word that describes a different manner of something in the air. It is an operative word that sets a different perspective.

The usage of bound and its description. Once again you have to interpret the word and its usage. Bound but not tied together. Example. Love cuffs (the fluffy kind) with spring clips can bind each ankle but not bind them together.

So don't just listen but listen to the word usage.

It is my opinion that the scene was staged based on a few things. (From the Ariel photo)

1. The orange cord or tether is a pointer that trails along. The feet was the lead and the loose end follows indicating the path or route in which the feet traveled. The cord trails rightward and away from the indicated hang point (Table). This means the brother would have carried her to the far right double the length on the cord and walk back for it to trail back to its resting point. If the table was used in either the hanging or body retrieval the brothers motion would have been a 180 turn and the cord would have been in a closer proximity trailing from the direction of the body.

2. The body was dumped and not placed as a rescuer would need to prepare the body/person for reviving (CPR). Her body was placed with arms in the rear in an unaltered state similar to a dumping and again the cord points to the direction traveled.

The inconsistencies are due to after thought and staging which does not coincide with physics and natural events.

What you must do is discern between the staged articles and natural articles.

There is no witness to an actual hanging only the word of the brother and it seems that many are taking it as factual. She was face down when the police arrived so the hanging can be questioned.

Inobu


Well thought out analysis. Anytime I see a crime/crime scene that just doesn't look or feel right, is difficult to explain, I think staging should be considered.

MizStery
07-30-2011, 01:36 PM
OK,how about this?

Perhaps the pepetrator had a simmering resentment and dislike of RN. This is staged to look like a revenge killing. Whoever did this was a making a point. RN had a mortal enemy whether she suspected it or not.

MS accident was the perfect cover to implement the violent staged death of Rebecca. The only reason the two are related is the one offered opportunity to carry out the second. i.e. JS out of the house. Non of JS children staying at the mansion.

Tuesday night we have AS in the guesthouse and RS in the mansion all alone. if the culpret was hired then whoever contracted them would have provided the security code. I am sure the mansion had a intercom. RS would not admit any one inside without knowing who it was.

I think MS accident is a red herring. It only offered opportunity to strike when RN was alone
and vunerable in the mansion. This was either carried out per orders from the culprit or it was carried out as a crime of passion by someone who knew and hated RN.

This is my theory. MOO

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 01:38 PM
I completely agree. I can see that DS would have enough anger and rage for this crime. Her history with her ex and RN was challenging at best..IMO.

Even though I would not try to kill someone with an extension cord..I might use one to try to cover a crime. IE bindings on hands and feet.

If I had murdered someone (shivers) I certainly wouldn't make the fake suicide staged to look suspicious from the get go. I would not bind the hands and the feet leaving LE more suspicious. I would not display the victim naked and exposed over a balcony railing on the outside of the dwelling. I wouldn't use an electrical cord knowing this victim was not the construction type and would have no need to even know where the electrical cord was kept.

I would really try to make it LOOK like a suicide instead of someone immediately thinking "this is violent and bizarre" where the fake suicide is immediately not bought but brings homicide detectives into the death investigation by the droves.

IMO

Inobu
07-30-2011, 01:47 PM
As I stated before it is important to listen to the words used and the source.

This article is from Memphis. Home town of AS. http://www.wmctv.com/story/15091608/memphian-discovers-body-in-brothers-san-diego-mansion?clienttype=printable

Adam Shacknai lives in an apartment in Midtown Memphis. His leasing agent neighbor, Robert Sanders, said he last saw him a few days ago.

"He said that he was going to have to go back out on the tugboat company he works for," said Sanders.

Instead, Adam Shacknai ended up in San Diego in a guest house in his brother's mansion.

The time of this conversation is important in that it indicates if AS was trying to set up an alibi or was prior to him knowing the events of his nephew and a change of plan was ensuing unannounced to him.

Monday, Jonah Shacknai's son fell down a staircase at the home and is in a coma. Nalepa was the only one at home with the boy when that happened.

The source of information or comment is important in that it ties RN as a responsible party in someone's mind. The question is where did the reporter get this info and what does the statement implies and by whom?

RN's death is bazaar and not random. It has to be associated to something and someone other then her.

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 01:53 PM
As I stated before it is important to listen to the words used and the source.

This article is from Memphis. Home town of AS. http://www.wmctv.com/story/15091608/memphian-discovers-body-in-brothers-san-diego-mansion?clienttype=printable

Adam Shacknai lives in an apartment in Midtown Memphis. His leasing agent neighbor, Robert Sanders, said he last saw him a few days ago.

"He said that he was going to have to go back out on the tugboat company he works for," said Sanders.

Instead, Adam Shacknai ended up in San Diego in a guest house in his brother's mansion.

The time of this conversation is important in that it indicates if AS was trying to set up an alibi or was prior to him knowing the events of his nephew and a change of plan was ensuing unannounced to him.

Monday, Jonah Shacknai's son fell down a staircase at the home and is in a coma. Nalepa was the only one at home with the boy when that happened.

The source of information or comment is important in that it ties RN as a responsible party in someone's mind. The question is where did the reporter get this info and what does the statement implies and by whom?

RN's death is bazaar and not random. It has to be associated to something and someone other then her.

Maybe I am missing something but what the man says makes sense to me.

Adam had told him he would be going back out on the tugboat.

That was his original plans, imo.

But then he was advised that Maxie had been gravely injured and was on life support he flew in to be with his brother. Family emergencies can change any family member's plans in a blink of an eye.

Him going back out on the tug boat changed when he was told of Maxie's accident, IMO.

IMO

Paladine
07-30-2011, 01:57 PM
Very good discussions......

To get a better understanding we can use the cliche "It is what it is". In this case a suicide is a suicide and a homicide is a homicide. The events that lead up to the death will indicate which it which.

If we witness a person jumping from a bridge (no one pushing him) the conclusion of a suicide can be made easily. If there are no eye witnesses then information is needed to validate the claim of suicide.

Going back to the cliche a suicide would/should have been cut and dry with a note and a simple death. Often you see the event occur in a closet or such. The more elaborate it gets the further away from the norm it goes. At a certain point past the norm deception starts to take form. When deception is identified the scales starts to tip to homicide and the many different facets (Murder, criminal and so forth).

In RN's case the initial investigation starts off questionable in that the scene was altered which compromises the investigation (no one saw RN in the natural position of death.) This starts the questioning of events.

Questions are further induced by AS claim to make a revival attempt with the found positioning of RN questioning his account not to mention the nudity of her body this takes the case off the norm.

I don't think someone set out to murder her, It does not look like she was in a state of depression to commit suicide which leads to the potential of an accidental death and a cover up that followed.

Here is the point that brings AS first in the pool of suspects. A body that has been hung has certain conditions in place which some of those conditions are visually disturbing and indicates death. For AS to think that he could have revived her he had to have been near the TOD.

A jump to death would have broken the neck and the visual signs of death would have been present negating the need for revival.

These factors plays an important part and the forensic results will validate the true cause of death and the inconsistencies be eliminated.

I think LE has the scene mapped out they just need the forensic to collaborate it and it does have a twist other wise they would have stated the facts long ago.

Inobu

Verbatim quotes from Police presser:

"reporting party told the responding officers he had found Nalepa with a rope around her neck and hanging from a balcony off the main house."

"Adam S. informed us that he cut her down when he found her"

"When the first units from Coronodo Police arrived they believed she was deceased yet they performed life saving measures, anyway, until the fire dept. showed uo to pronounce her"

Was she hanging by the neck? "That is what we were told from the reporting party (AS) when he found her""

"numerous items of evidence, the scene was quite suspicious"

"Not ready to disclose what the material was for the bindings, there was a rope suspending her"

911 caller said: "there was a woman on the property who appeared to be dead"

Did Adam heard any sign of struggle on property? "We're not ready to disclose that information"

Last seen alive: "Tuesday evening by Adam".

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=6051226&redirected=true

Inobu
07-30-2011, 02:03 PM
oceanblueeyes

That is why the time of the statement is important.

This is hypothetical

Say that the comment of the tugboat was made as he was going to the airport (to San Diego) this means that he was making a false statement to cover his where about.

If he made the statement prior to the knowledge of the accident then it coincides with the truth.

Inconsistencies seems to come from him a lot.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 02:13 PM
Paladine,


Inconsistencies can have us running in circles.

watch..

"When the first units from Coronodo Police arrived they believed she was deceased yet they performed life saving measures, anyway, until the fire dept. showed uo to pronounce her"

Based on the aerial images. Her arms were still behind her back. Cannot preform CPR with arms in that position need to position the body so that the lungs can be filled with oxygen and heart pumped to circulate blood. Blue article around her neck and body position does not indicate such action.

Carrington
07-30-2011, 02:23 PM
Toxicology reports normally take up to six weeks to be completed, but authorities could have them finalized by the end of next week, FOX reported.

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/national/authorities-rushing-toxicology-reports-for-dead-son-girlfriend-of-arizona-millionaire-ncx-07202011

This story was written on July 20th.
I think they have everything they need to make the determination, suicide or murder.
What's the hold-up?

IMO

x_files
07-30-2011, 02:23 PM
I agree Inobu this would take way too long to be a hit. And many hits are not traceable because they are exacted so quickly. So little evidence is left.

It's too complicated. It reminds me of Sharon Tate (just the hanging part and that it's in a mansion).
It seems ritualistic. Either she committed suicide ritualistically or someone committed a ritualistic homicide fueled by sexual obsession, sadism, to humiliate or to torture.
I have a real hard tie a sad grieving possibly drunk woman could hogtie herself naked and throw herself off a balcony. This is very dramatic and complex way to commit suicide.
I wonder about ritualistic murders and homicides recently that could be connected. Or about JS mental state.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 02:28 PM
You have to key on the quotes from the investigating LE in that they will be as precise as possible. For example the media is using hanged based on AS report and the LE used "suspended".

LE used criminal act which is a classification.

I have a feeling that it is cut and dry but family implication is impeding it.

arielilane
07-30-2011, 02:29 PM
Why would AS think that Maxie's fall was anything other than an accident? Certainly the killer would realize that a nude body would draw more attention to this situation...unless she was nude when he confronted her?
Rebecca may have had a habit of sleeping in the nude?

Paladine
07-30-2011, 02:30 PM
Paladine,


Inconsistencies can have us running in circles.

watch..

"When the first units from Coronodo Police arrived they believed she was deceased yet they performed life saving measures, anyway, until the fire dept. showed uo to pronounce her"

Based on the aerial images. Her arms were still behind her back. Cannot preform CPR with arms in that position need to position the body so that the lungs can be filled with oxygen and heart pumped to circulate blood. Blue article around her neck and body position does not indicate such action.

So, by what we see, it would seem the police are misinforming us...

Paladine
07-30-2011, 02:31 PM
Rebecca may have had a habit of sleeping in the nude?

That's what I'm thinking, too, arielilane...

Paladine
07-30-2011, 02:35 PM
It's too complicated. It reminds me of Sharon Tate (just the hanging part and that it's in a mansion).
It seems ritualistic. Either she committed suicide ritualistically or someone committed a ritualistic homicide fueled by sexual obsession, sadism, to humiliate or to torture.
I have a real hard tie a sad grieving possibly drunk woman could hogtie herself naked and throw herself off a balcony. This is very dramatic and complex way to commit suicide.
I wonder about ritualistic murders and homicides recently that could be connected. Or about JS mental state.

That's the big question, to me. Some folks are into BDSM. Was Jonah? Domination and bondage doesn't always have to be mutually agreeable; it should be, but it's not...domination fuelled by rage might just go too far, and then a coverup might be needed....AS's role? IMO.

ETA: we need hospital tapes, imo.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 02:36 PM
So, by what we see, it would seem the police are misinforming us...

No, we have to be attentive in that "people" are taking notes and writing what LE is stating and then writing the articles. Their interpretation could skew what we are getting.

Paladine
07-30-2011, 02:39 PM
No, we have to be attentive in that "people" are taking notes and writing what LE is stating and then writing the articles. Their interpretation could skew what we are getting.

The note I took, and the note you quoted, was directly from the police presser, verbatim...so, to get this straight...are you then saying the OTHER reporting is wrong? :waitasec:

ETA: just saw your response...need reading glasses. ;) Got it. :) And I SO agree...interpretation is everything...thats why I wrote out exactly what Curran said.

scorekeeper
07-30-2011, 02:41 PM
As I stated before it is important to listen to the words used and the source.

This article is from Memphis. Home town of AS. http://www.wmctv.com/story/15091608/memphian-discovers-body-in-brothers-san-diego-mansion?clienttype=printable

Adam Shacknai lives in an apartment in Midtown Memphis. His leasing agent neighbor, Robert Sanders, said he last saw him a few days ago."He said that he was going to have to go back out on the tugboat company he works for," said Sanders.

Instead, Adam Shacknai ended up in San Diego in a guest house in his brother's mansion.

The time of this conversation is important in that it indicates if AS was trying to set up an alibi or was prior to him knowing the events of his nephew and a change of plan was ensuing unannounced to him.

Monday, Jonah Shacknai's son fell down a staircase at the home and is in a coma. Nalepa was the only one at home with the boy when that happened.

The source of information or comment is important in that it ties RN as a responsible party in someone's mind. The question is where did the reporter get this info and what does the statement implies and by whom?

RN's death is bazaar and not random. It has to be associated to something and someone other then her.

BBM

His apartment manager said "he saw him a couple days ago". The article was written on the 15th; MS had his "accident" on the the 11th. Did he see him Sunday, Monday or Tuesday am (not sure when he arrived at the mansion - Monday/Tueday)....

Did JS or someone send for him? To get information from RN? Do "do the dirty work"?

I don't think RN's death was random either....the way she was found...speak anger, anger, anger..

This was also taken from the article:

Adam Shacknai said from San Diego that the police were questioning him but he did not have anything to do with Nalepa's death.

Why would you say that??? Did JS or DS make such statements????

Without more information, there are to many unanswered questions and theories

4Jacy
07-30-2011, 02:41 PM
I believe it. I can see a woman attack her husband if it is really late at night - he reads a story to the baby - and then says "i'm going out now"...(probably going to see the mistress). I can see a woman going crazy and wanting to get physical with the husband.

]Oh, Yeah!!![/I]

Me? I would have said "don't let the door hit you in the back but listen buddy when you get back let's talk divorce -- so make time for me." :rocker:

I wouldn't have said anything, because at that point, he wouldn't be able to hear :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

pferrin
07-30-2011, 02:42 PM
If AS is the perpertrator then his mindset could be more than just revenge for his nephew. It could be that he has had women probs for a long time and may have a great deal of anger towards women.

The manner in which the body was treated could have partially been due to some of his personal issues.

AS lie to landlord is gonna be interesting to see if his cell records show that he got the call about Maxie before or after he planned trip.

Ocean .. I dont think I would ever set up a homicide to look like this one does..but someone that has never commited homicide before might make irrational decisions trying to cover.

Thank goodness I have never come close to homicide..just trying to get into their mindsets.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 02:42 PM
Rebecca may have had a habit of sleeping in the nude?

This s what I have thought all along.

Paladine
07-30-2011, 02:45 PM
What if he was a special needs child and required extreme supervision...

FYI: I've searched and searched and can find NOTHING that says he was special needs....

MizStery
07-30-2011, 02:49 PM
That's the big question, to me. Some folks are into BDSM. Was Jonah? Domination and bondage doesn't always have to be mutually agreeable; it should be, but it's not...domination fuelled by rage might just go too far, and then a coverup might be needed....AS's role? IMO.

ETA: we need hospital tapes, imo.

Thanks Palatine for your post. I just can't forget the pronoun used by Michael Jackson's doctor calling JS 'saturnine'. I think it might be closer to the truth than even we realize. Just my own speculation based on that very thought provoking post.

Paladine
07-30-2011, 02:50 PM
I honestly have no idea either but the death investigators do seem to think toxicology results can be a factor in suicides.

This morning I read this article. Now they did declare his MOD as a suicide quickly but they also added this.

Los Angeles County Assistant Coroner Chief Ed Winter told The Associated Press in an email Friday that the 42-year-old Irabu died by hanging himself, and the mode was suicide. He said Irabu did not leave a note.

Winter said an autopsy was performed Friday, but it will take six to eight weeks for the results of toxicology tests, which could shed further light on the circumstances of Irabu's death.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6817158/coroner-says-former-new-york-yankee-pitcher-hideki-irabu-hanged-self?campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

To All:

Any thoughts on why they could rule his hanging death a suicide before tox results and we need tox results before they rule one way or the other on Rebecca?

arielilane
07-30-2011, 02:51 PM
Investigators on Tuesaday told 3TV that they are looking into the possibility that the deaths could be linked. They are looking for clues into Zahau's mental state, and trying to see if Max's fall or something else could have led her to suicide.
San Diego Sheriff's Sgt. Roy Frank said suicides and homicides often look alike, even in the bizarre death of Zahau.
"Suicides are unusual. We're seen people who've bound their hands and feet together before committing suicide. People are creative and put a lot of thought into it," said Frank.
Frank added, it could be many more days or weeks before Zahau's autopsy results are released.
"We only get one shot at this, and we have to make sure we get it right."
Investigators consider Jonah Shacknai, his ex-wife, Dina, and his brother, Adam, all witnesses in Zahau's death. Frank says all have been cooperative.
http://www.kmov.com/news/business/125731173.html

jjenny
07-30-2011, 02:53 PM
To All:

Any thoughts on why they could rule his hanging death a suicide before tox results and we need tox results before they rule one way or the other on Rebecca?

Well that suggests to me his case was pretty obvious. With RN, did anyone even came forward to suggest she was depressed or suicidal? I don't think so. Her sister just talked to her, and she doesn't think RN was suicidal. And RN had future plans which she discussed with the sister.

arielilane
07-30-2011, 02:56 PM
To All:

Any thoughts on why they could rule his hanging death a suicide before tox results and we need tox results before they rule one way or the other on Rebecca?
Most likely because of how the scene was left. Do you remember the movie An Officer and a Gentleman? No staging. Rebecca's scene looked staged, etc.

mentalsolstice
07-30-2011, 02:58 PM
FYI: I've searched and searched and can find NOTHING that says he was special needs....

Even if he was in need of constant supervision, it's kind of tough for one person to do it alone, and accidents still do happen. My 13 yo mentally challenged neighbor drowned in the pool while the sitter was in the bathroom. Unfortunately, it happens.

Paladine
07-30-2011, 02:58 PM
If AS is the perpertrator then his mindset could be more than just revenge for his nephew. It could be that he has had women probs for a long time and may have a great deal of anger towards women.

The manner in which the body was treated could have partially been due to some of his personal issues.

AS lie to landlord is gonna be interesting to see if his cell records show that he got the call about Maxie before or after he planned trip.

Ocean .. I dont think I would ever set up a homicide to look like this one does..but someone that has never commited homicide before might make irrational decisions trying to cover.

Thank goodness I have never come close to homicide..just trying to get into their mindsets.

ALL Speculation:

I see AS as the 'lesser-than' brother...the one who never lived up to his brothers achievements...maybe a little submissive, an under achiever, perhaps imo...I can see Adam covering up at his brothers behest...but to kill her? Not all on his own or without his brothers permisson...JS just lost his son...would his brother kill his GF without JS's permission?

arielilane
07-30-2011, 03:01 PM
Maybe the table with the broken leg was broken on purpose and not by someone standing on it?

Paladine
07-30-2011, 03:07 PM
Maybe the table with the broken leg was broken on purpose and not by someone standing on it?

Good thought.

arielilane
07-30-2011, 03:07 PM
So the autopsy report has not been released? Is that correct? Are they waiting to release it the same time that they release the toxicology results? TIA

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 03:09 PM
oceanblueeyes

That is why the time of the statement is important.

This is hypothetical

Say that the comment of the tugboat was made as he was going to the airport (to San Diego) this means that he was making a false statement to cover his where about.

If he made the statement prior to the knowledge of the accident then it coincides with the truth.

Inconsistencies seems to come from him a lot.

What inconsistencies? I haven't heard or even seen Adam since the beginning of the case. When has he spoken out?

He made the comment about having to go back out on the tugboat several days before any of this happened, imo.

Adam Shacknai lives in an apartment in Midtown Memphis. His leasing agent neighbor, Robert Sanders, said he last saw him a few days ago.

IMO

Inobu
07-30-2011, 03:13 PM
To All:

Any thoughts on why they could rule his hanging death a suicide before tox results and we need tox results before they rule one way or the other on Rebecca?

It is the patter of events that fall into the norm. His career, heritage (Japanese family honor) points to probability. Kinda like a check list. If something deviates then the flags are raised.

It is sad as life does pose difficulties for many that's why family, friends and love is an important facet to life.

Paladine
07-30-2011, 03:14 PM
Well that suggests to me his case was pretty obvious. With RN, did anyone even came forward to suggest she was depressed or suicidal? I don't think so. Her sister just talked to her, and she doesn't think RN was suicidal. And RN had future plans which she discussed with the sister.

Exactly...so, my thought leads to: there must be no conclusive evidence of suicide on autopsy or they likely would have already ruled and released that...it would certainly be in JS companies favor, imo, to do so...taking this case completely out of the media.

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 03:14 PM
So the autopsy report has not been released? Is that correct? Are they waiting to release it the same time that they release the toxicology results? TIA

Do they have to release autopsy reports to the public in California? If not I doubt we will see either autopsy report.

The official autopsy report is not even completed until all toxicology results are returned the MEs office.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 03:16 PM
Exactly...so, my thought leads to: there must be no conclusive evidence of suicide on autopsy or they likely would have already ruled and released that...it would certainly be in JS companies favor, imo, to do so...taking this case completely out of the media.

I have really been shocked that the media hasn't been all over this case night and day.

Now they do mention it from time to time but not nearly as much as I would have thought.

IMO

Paladine
07-30-2011, 03:17 PM
So the autopsy report has not been released? Is that correct? Are they waiting to release it the same time that they release the toxicology results? TIA

I read 'sealed'...try a search: autopsy, sealed, zahau, napela...should come up...no link handy...sorry.

peace9274
07-30-2011, 03:19 PM
OK. My mind is going in a zillion different directions, both here,
following 2 other cases... and in RL.

This may have already been answered & I've forgotten, but....
Was there an autopsy reported on MS? If so, was there a skull fracture?
A broken neck? Other injuries?

Paladine
07-30-2011, 03:20 PM
I have really been shocked that the media hasn't been all over this case night and day.

Now they do mention it from time to time but not nearly as much as I would have thought.

IMO

I wonder who the other clients are of that PR team that was hired? Media clients, perhaps? As soon as that PR team was hired, it was like a faucet turned OFF! No info. Something to sleuth...it's my BD today, I hate BD's...but I gotta go out w/the kids and act happy, lol...or I'd search myself...

ALL IMO

Paladine
07-30-2011, 03:23 PM
OK. My mind is going in a zillion different directions, both here,
following 2 other cases... and in RL.

This may have already been answered & I've forgotten, but....
Was there an autopsy reported on MS? If so, was there a skull fracture?
A broken neck? Other injuries?

Yes, results sealed, no link, take it for what its worth, lol...:)

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 03:23 PM
Toxicology reports normally take up to six weeks to be completed, but authorities could have them finalized by the end of next week, FOX reported.

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/national/authorities-rushing-toxicology-reports-for-dead-son-girlfriend-of-arizona-millionaire-ncx-07202011

This story was written on July 20th.
I think they have everything they need to make the determination, suicide or murder.
What's the hold-up?

IMO

The ME will not make a determination on MOD until all tox tests are back. The report is not even complete until that comes back in. That makes me believe they are still undecided on what actually happened. They need more info.

They seem to be waiting for some reason and I think its because they want to know what was in her system at the time of death. That will help them come to a determination of suicide or homicide. Remember they took evidence from the mansion. It also could help them with the TOD if stomach contents were found showing she had eaten shortly before death or drank something.

IMO

arielilane
07-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Do they have to release autopsy reports to the public in California? If not I doubt we will see either autopsy report.

The official autopsy report is not even completed until all toxicology results are returned the MEs office.

IMO They are released to the public in California. As you so graciously stated the autopsy report is not completed until the toxicology results are completed; I suppose? I thought they were separate reports.
http://www.autopsyfiles.org/

Paladine
07-30-2011, 03:27 PM
The results of Zahua's autopsy by the county medical examiner have been sealed during the investigation.
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-coronado-mansion-death-15-detectives-probe-mansion-death-20110720,0,653823.story

The sheriff's department has yet to rule Zahau's death a suicide or homicide, and her autopsy results have been sealed. Coronado police have also sealed the autopsy results of Max Shacknai.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15103319/reports-allege-history-of-domestic-violence-in-shacknai-home?clienttype=printable

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 03:29 PM
They are released to the public in California. As you so graciously stated the autopsy report is not completed until the toxicology results are completed; I suppose? I thought they were separate reports.
http://www.autopsyfiles.org/

Thank you.

In any official autopsy report the toxicology report is always listed within the official report. Remember they did the same thing with Michael Jackson's autopsy report?

They are different reports because the ME sends them out to a lab to be tested and the lab sends them back to the ME showing the results of what was found and the amounts found of certain drugs. Then the ME encapsulates them into the official AR.

IMO

pferrin
07-30-2011, 03:30 PM
I am with Tim Curran on the suicide description...people can be creative when commiting suicide. Brother looked and started telling me about how creative folks can be. He agreed about hands and feet bound..they do find folks that have done that.

He said in his experience women that have commited suicide in the nude have done so in the shower or bath..women want to save someone from having to clean up mess. Of course in those cases..the hands and feet were not bound.

Also Maxies fall could lend itself to RN thinking suicide..however her conversation with her sis and hearing that she was supportive to folks in her life rules that out for me. She would have wanted to be helpful during time of need.

Paladine I do agree that most likely AS would not act without JS approval..however sometimes a demented mind might think they are being helpful. IMO

peace9274
07-30-2011, 03:31 PM
<snipped>
it's my BD today, I hate BD's...but I gotta go out w/the kids and act happy, lol


:party::party::party:
:Happybirthday::Happybirthday::Happybirthday:
:bdsong::bdsong::bdsong:

Lovejac
07-30-2011, 03:31 PM
I wonder who the other clients are of that PR team that was hired? Media clients, perhaps? As soon as that PR team was hired, it was like a faucet turned OFF! No info. Something to sleuth...it's my BD today, I hate BD's...but I gotta go out w/the kids and act happy, lol...or I'd search myself...

ALL IMO


Happy Birthday, Paladine!!!

:party::bdsong::bdsurprise::bdscroll:

arielilane
07-30-2011, 03:34 PM
I wonder who the other clients are of that PR team that was hired? Media clients, perhaps? As soon as that PR team was hired, it was like a faucet turned OFF! No info. Something to sleuth...it's my BD today, I hate BD's...but I gotta go out w/the kids and act happy, lol...or I'd search myself...

ALL IMO LOL! Happy Birthday, Paladine! :great:
http://www.wuerziworld.de/Smilies/par/par34.gif

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 03:35 PM
I wonder who the other clients are of that PR team that was hired? Media clients, perhaps? As soon as that PR team was hired, it was like a faucet turned OFF! No info. Something to sleuth...it's my BD today, I hate BD's...but I gotta go out w/the kids and act happy, lol...or I'd search myself...

ALL IMO

Well I hate that you hate birthdays Paladine but I always say...'it sure beats the alternative!" lol:woohoo:

Have a wonderful great birthday and be proud that you have those who love you and want to make you happy! Just relax and enjoy it all!

IMO

Paladine
07-30-2011, 03:35 PM
deleted; repeat :)

arielilane
07-30-2011, 03:36 PM
Thank you.

In any official autopsy report the toxicology report is always listed within the official report. Remember they did the same thing with Michael Jackson's autopsy report?

They are different reports because the ME sends them out to a lab to be tested and the lab sends them back to the ME showing the results of what was found and the amounts found of certain drugs. Then the ME encapsulates them into the official AR.

IMO I did not care to read MJ's autopsy report. LOL

scorekeeper
07-30-2011, 03:36 PM
To All:

Any thoughts on why they could rule his hanging death a suicide before tox results and we need tox results before they rule one way or the other on Rebecca?

No evidence of violence or bizarre situation? Based on scene, was obvious that he took him own life......

RIP...

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 03:42 PM
Yes, results sealed, no link, take it for what its worth, lol...:)

This convinces me I have just kept up with too many cases over the years.:floorlaugh:

It isn't uncommon at all that AR are sealed during an ongoing investigation. Once something breaks the media will go to the Judge and request that they be released. The Judge can still seal them if the prosecutor convinces the Judge that the facts in the AR would impede their criminal case if they arrested anyone for this.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 03:43 PM
I did not care to read MJ's autopsy report. LOL

LOL! I just mentioned his because it was also in California.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 03:46 PM
No evidence of violence or bizarre situation? Based on scene, was obvious that he took him own life......

RIP...

You are right but the ME does want to know if he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time because often suicide victims are and it would maybe make it more understandable that it was a compulsive decision because of being under the influence.

IMO

Inobu
07-30-2011, 03:47 PM
oceanblueeyes

1. Cut down the body to revive her.

A hanging by the neck is graphic. A jump from the balcony would have snapped the neck and left a insightful image of death. Bodily functions occur. The question is who is giving the most accurate account. AS's hanged or LE suspended and LE is looking at the evidence before them?

2. Cut down to revive.

The body still had arms behind the back, scarf around neck and orange tethering. The body was also in a positioned that does not reflect a revival attempt as he stated. His only possible revival method is CPR and the body was not poised for that. Action and motive of revival is questionable. Once you start CPR you do not stop.

3. What do you do?

Cut her down and then call 911 or Call 911 and then cut here down? Place the table on the walkway to cut her down and then call 911. Too many illogical questions for a self inflected suicide and what was the actual sequence of events.

4. As for the tugboat the time line is critical but not defined. If he told the agent that he was going to the tugboat but had a ticket to San Diego then that is a questionable comment. Only the agent can clarify. Then the question is Why lie about it? That's my only point. If the event occurred before his notification then it pans out if not you need to understand why?

It is about validating peoples creditability.

Him moving the body compromised the scene in the beginning.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 03:48 PM
I love Dr Voss. He made study of dead bodies sound interesting and besides he is cute. :crazy::crazy:

jjenny
07-30-2011, 03:49 PM
You are right but the ME does want to know if he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time because often suicide victims are and it would maybe make it more understandable that it was a compulsive decision because of being under the influence.

IMO

Hanging oneself while naked, with hands bound behind back and feet bound just doesn't sound like a compulsive decision, or something a person can physically accomplish if highly intoxicated.

justice be served
07-30-2011, 03:49 PM
Forgive me if I missed this but has anyone confirmed who the defense lawyer that showed up at the house was actually defending? An earlier post suggested -- and I agree -- that probably JS's business hired the lawyer. Although the lawyer at that time was quoted that he had never met JS, that could certainly have been a true statement at that juncture -- he just had not YET met him. Have I missed any further speculation or fact on who we think hired the lawyer?

scorekeeper
07-30-2011, 03:51 PM
Happy Birthday, Paladine!!!!

Thank God your children want and can spend time with you on this special day!!

No greater love than family!!

:bdsong::martini:

CuriousAmazon
07-30-2011, 03:54 PM
Something to sleuth...it's my BD today, I hate BD's...but I gotta go out w/the kids and act happy, lol...or I'd search myself...

ALL IMO

It's your birthday? If it is, happy birthday Paladine!

pferrin
07-30-2011, 04:00 PM
Forgive me if I missed this but has anyone confirmed who the defense lawyer that showed up at the house was actually defending? An earlier post suggested -- and I agree -- that probably JS's business hired the lawyer. Although the lawyer at that time was quoted that he had never met JS, that could certainly have been a true statement at that juncture -- he just had not YET met him. Have I missed any further speculation or fact on who we think hired the lawyer?

My guess would be JS hired the man..But that is just a guess. I wouldn't think that someone that works on a tugboat and lives in a fairly small apt could afford a high $$$ lawyer.

jjenny
07-30-2011, 04:07 PM
As I recall the lawyer wasn't even allowed to meet with anyone. I fail to see how that could have possibly happen if JS hired him.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 04:10 PM
Actually Pfingst could have been hired by DS..He said he was hired by someone connected with this case.. did he ever come out and say he was hired to defend AS??

pferrin
07-30-2011, 04:11 PM
As I recall the lawyer wasn't even allowed to meet with anyone. I fail to see how that could have possibly happen if JS hired him.

You are right Jenny..I didnt think of that . thanks

Paladine
07-30-2011, 04:13 PM
This convinces me I have just kept up with too many cases over the years.:floorlaugh:

It isn't uncommon at all that AR are sealed during an ongoing investigation. Once something breaks the media will go to the Judge and request that they be released. The Judge can still seal them if the prosecutor convinces the Judge that the facts in the AR would impede their criminal case if they arrested anyone for this.

IMO

THIS is one of the reasons you are so priceless to have around...:)

:yourock:

arielilane
07-30-2011, 04:15 PM
How many floors did the manison have? TIA

Paladine
07-30-2011, 04:15 PM
But what if the 'client' is Medesis and 'they' can't be met with...? Just as the PR woman, Denise D Resnick, quoted speaking highly of JS in the LA Times works for a pr company that lists Medsis as a "client"...link was posted earlier...

MsFacetious
07-30-2011, 04:20 PM
Adam Shacknai said from San Diego that the police were questioning him but he did not have anything to do with Nalepa's death.

http://www.wmctv.com/story/15091608/memphian-discovers-body-in-brothers-san-diego-mansion?clienttype=printable

Now this is from July 15...

I imagine he said he had nothing to do with her death because they was what he was questioned about.

But if this was a clear suicide... why would they be "questioning him about that in the first place??

Paladine
07-30-2011, 04:21 PM
Forgive me if I missed this but has anyone confirmed who the defense lawyer that showed up at the house was actually defending? An earlier post suggested -- and I agree -- that probably JS's business hired the lawyer. Although the lawyer at that time was quoted that he had never met JS, that could certainly have been a true statement at that juncture -- he just had not YET met him. Have I missed any further speculation or fact on who we think hired the lawyer?

That's where I'm leaning...that Medesis, the Company, hired the lawyer...a nice, neat way to keep JS name out of it, imo.

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 04:21 PM
oceanblueeyes

1. Cut down the body to revive her.

A hanging by the neck is graphic. A jump from the balcony would have snapped the neck and left a insightful image of death. Bodily functions occur. The question is who is giving the most accurate account. AS's hanged or LE suspended and LE is looking at the evidence before them?

2. Cut down to revive.

The body still had arms behind the back, scarf around neck and orange tethering. The body was also in a positioned that does not reflect a revival attempt as he stated. His only possible revival method is CPR and the body was not poised for that. Action and motive of revival is questionable. Once you start CPR you do not stop.

3. What do you do?

Cut her down and then call 911 or Call 911 and then cut here down? Place the table on the walkway to cut her down and then call 911. Too many illogical questions for a self inflected suicide and what was the actual sequence of events.

4. As for the tugboat the time line is critical but not defined. If he told the agent that he was going to the tugboat but had a ticket to San Diego then that is a questionable comment. Only the agent can clarify. Then the question is Why lie about it? That's my only point. If the event occurred before his notification then it pans out if not you need to understand why?

It is about validating peoples creditability.

Him moving the body compromised the scene in the beginning.

I do find your posts very interesting Inobu.

However I am not following your logic.

Are you saying Adam knew ahead of time that Maxie was going to fall down the stairs and die and RN was going to die too?:waitasec:

Adam certainly isn't the only family member that has compromised a scene when they have found a loved one dead from murder, natural causes, overdoses or suicides. I really don't think he was thinking about Crime Scene 101 at the time all of this was happening.

How can we judge people's credibility when we have not even seen them or heard them speak?

I don't think her neck had to be necessarily broken. The balcony was not up real high. I imagine there was spinal damage and brain stem damage but she most likely died from asphyxiation. Had she jumped off the balcony without a rope she may have broken her neck and some of her lower extremities. In the photo her face is straight up. It does not look like the neck is broken Her face doesn't even look bloated, blackened and swollen imo.

I would imagine since time was of the essence he cut her down first and then dialed 911. I think it is misinformation that she was ever face down. Imo she laid in the same position seen in the photos until the ME came out the the scene later that night after the SW was obtaine. By the time the media helicopter swooped in around 2 pm the medics had long been on the scene when called early that morning.

Did Adam say he did CPR? He may have jumped up on the table and grabbed her around the hips/legs or waist and tried to lift her body up to relieve the tension on her neck from the rope while trying to cut her down. If the electrical cord was around her neck (which I am not sure it was) then he would have tried to remove it hoping she could breathe or at least loosened it way up.

IMO

scorekeeper
07-30-2011, 04:26 PM
Actually Pfingst could have been hired by DS..He said he was hired by someone connected with this case.. did he ever come out and say he was hired to defend AS??

Wednesday evening, former District Attorney and current defense attorney Paul Pfingst showed up at the crime scene. Pfingst confirmed to News 8 that he had been hired to represent someone connected with this case, although he would not specify who his client is.

"I'm not Jonah's lawyer. I've never spoke with him. As far as I know he's not a suspect of any type," Pfingst said in a statement.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend?redirected=true

BBM

Why would he say that? How would he know that? Unless DS, AS or JS told him.

Perhaps he's on standby for any one of them.......depends on whether LE rule RN's passing as homicide and list someone as a person on interest.

Why did he show up at the mansion on Wednesday evening? Who was still there from the family? JS and DS should have still been at hospital...

Or was he trying to intimidate LE or to "puff himself up"......

defense101
07-30-2011, 04:34 PM
Actually Pfingst could have been hired by DS..He said he was hired by someone connected with this case.. did he ever come out and say he was hired to defend AS?? From what I read... Paul Pfingst was seen at the mansion last night. He confirmed he was representing someone associated with the house,but said that person is not Jonah Shacknai. Now what that means I'm not sure. that would mean DS or AS?

Wendy101
07-30-2011, 04:44 PM
OK,how about this?

Perhaps the pepetrator had a simmering resentment and dislike of RN. This is staged to look like a revenge killing. Whoever did this was a making a point. RN had a mortal enemy whether she suspected it or not.

MS accident was the perfect cover to implement the violent staged death of Rebecca. The only reason the two are related is the one offered opportunity to carry out the second. i.e. JS out of the house. Non of JS children staying at the mansion.

Tuesday night we have AS in the guesthouse and RS in the mansion all alone. if the culpret was hired then whoever contracted them would have provided the security code. I am sure the mansion had a intercom. RS would not admit any one inside without knowing who it was.

I think MS accident is a red herring. It only offered opportunity to strike when RN was alone
and vunerable in the mansion. This was either carried out per orders from the culprit or it was carried out as a crime of passion by someone who knew and hated RN.

This is my theory. MOO

IMO .. this could have been Dina that covered it to look like a male (JS) did it. It was the perfect time to do so also...

I know I can't get off Dina, but I think she is one of those wives that just won't let go...

MizStery
07-30-2011, 04:45 PM
Wednesday evening, former District Attorney and current defense attorney Paul Pfingst showed up at the crime scene. Pfingst confirmed to News 8 that he had been hired to represent someone connected with this case, although he would not specify who his client is.

"I'm not Jonah's lawyer. I've never spoke with him. As far as I know he's not a suspect of any type," Pfingst said in a statement.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend?redirected=true

BBM

Why would he say that? How would he know that? Unless DS, AS or JS told

him.Perhaps he's on standby for any one of them.......depends on whether LE rule
RN's passing as homicide and list someone as a person on interests.
Why did he show up at the mansion on Wednesday evening? Who was stil
there from the family? JS and DS should have still been at hospital...


Or was he trying to intimidate LE or to "puff himself up"......


I also think Medesis through JS hired Mr. Pfinst.Also, Mr. Pfinst would only use the term JS is not a suspect if it were a murder investigation.... not if it were a suicide death. MOO

justbetweenus
07-30-2011, 04:53 PM
I thought I heard or read that the interior of the house where the balcony is located was suspicious, anyone remember this?

Hmm...I could be wrong but I recall the officer saying something like; we did remove a few suspicious items from the house.A reporter then asked if it was the bedroom.

defense101
07-30-2011, 04:57 PM
IMO .. this could have been Dina that covered it to look like a male (JS) did it. It was the perfect time to do so also...

I know I can't get off Dina, but I think she is one of those wives that just won't let go... I agree, I can't get off her either. IMO this would mean her total disconnection from JS, MS is the only thing that kept her connected to JS. As well, just the condition of MS would be enough for a mother to go looking for angry revenge on the person they thought responsible.

Wendy101
07-30-2011, 04:57 PM
when accused of a criminal offense you call a defense attorney .. WHO called a Paul prior to being charged, and charged for what?

Paul Pfingst was seen at the mansion last night. He confirmed he was representing someone associated with the house.

So, Paul is not representing JS. Who is left in this horrible mess? Dina and Adam.

From what I understand, Adam was not as well off as JS and would not have been able to hire the number one criminal defense lawyer money has to offer.... and I can't beleive that JS is going to pay the lawyer Adam , if Adam killed Rebecca.

I think it is Dinas lawyer. SHe has the money. She had motive (IMO) and she even knew Rebecca would be alone...She IS associated to the house, or WAS. Now with Maxie gone, so are her ties to JS.

arielilane
07-30-2011, 04:59 PM
I was thinking Paul Pfingst was there as corporate counsel, but since (I believe I read he is a defense counsel), I'm not so sure.

mentalsolstice
07-30-2011, 05:01 PM
I wonder who the other clients are of that PR team that was hired? Media clients, perhaps? As soon as that PR team was hired, it was like a faucet turned OFF! No info. Something to sleuth...it's my BD today, I hate BD's...but I gotta go out w/the kids and act happy, lol...or I'd search myself...

ALL IMO

Happy Bday! :great::seeya:

I know what you mean. I like to celebrate the way I want, not the way others want me to. For instance, my parents always insist on being present. Which means going to a loud chain restaurant (with my dad asking mom every 2 secs, what did s/he say?), and no adult beverages allowed :maddening: . This year for my 50th, I put my foot down and said "it's my party and I'll cry...er drink if I want to." So instead I met them for brunch at Starbux, and had nice dinner with DH at our favorite Lebanese restaurant where we shared a nice bottle of wine...the same restaurant he took me to for my 30th, and it was our 3rd date. My parents weren't happy, but oh well. Unfortunately, they weren't available at any other time for a 2nd celebration, they had other "priorities".

defense101
07-30-2011, 05:02 PM
How many floors did the manison have? TIA

From the pictures it looks like two. Some one posted the floor plans earlier way up thread and it only showed two floors.

arielilane
07-30-2011, 05:03 PM
The houses are so close. I wonder if any neighbors heard anything?

pferrin
07-30-2011, 05:11 PM
If JS had hired him..there would be no need to show up at the home. Phingst know LE rules about gaining access. Also why do the interview..if JS or PR company hired him..he just put JS more in the limelight. IMO JS does not want to have his name associated with this crime at all.

If he was hired for AS...no need to be there. No need for interview.

By phingst showing up and doing an interview..it plunges JS right into the middle of this investigation. These folks are way smarter than this. Phingst knows ya cant intimidate LE on a crime scene..that is LE playing court.

Maybe he is just a baez..dont know..it is very strange. I cant seem to get past DS and what her involvement is.

CuriousAmazon
07-30-2011, 05:16 PM
It is about validating peoples creditability.

Him moving the body compromised the scene in the beginning.

Maybe this is why there was an attorney at the scene, who expressly stated he was NOT representing JS. So maybe the lawyer was/is representing AS.

Also, I'm sure JS would want to protect his brother as all this would reflect badly on his image & his company (stocks dropping), plus it is his brother. So many thoughts, hmmm...

arielilane
07-30-2011, 05:17 PM
This may be old news, however, Dina was once part of Medici.

http://thesocialdiary.com/oscardelarenta1.html

mentalsolstice
07-30-2011, 05:22 PM
Did Adam say he did CPR? He may have jumped up on the table and grabbed her around the hips/legs or waist and tried to lift her body up to relieve the tension on her neck from the rope while trying to cut her down. If the electrical cord was around her neck (which I am not sure it was) then he would have tried to remove it hoping she could breathe or at least loosened it way up.

IMO

Snipped. IMO, "efforts to revive" could mean a variety of things, such as feeling for a pulse, lightly slapping the face, loosening the noose, etc. IMO, I don't think it matters if it was done by AS, LE or EMTs. Actual CPR may never have happened, but efforts were made to determine if it even plausible to attempt, and then she was pronounced dead at the scene.

I also don't think AS lied to his LL about his whereabouts, especially if left in a hurry. I'm not "liking" AS for this if it was indeed a homicide. Too many other <unusual> persons involved. MOO

arielilane
07-30-2011, 05:22 PM
Mr. Pfingst currently represents clients in complex litigation, white collar crime, and professional licensing matters.

http://www.higgslaw.com/apg_a53_Paul_J_Pfingst.html

CuriousAmazon
07-30-2011, 05:32 PM
If JS had hired him..there would be no need to show up at the home. Phingst know LE rules about gaining access. Also why do the interview..if JS or PR company hired him..he just put JS more in the limelight. IMO JS does not want to have his name associated with this crime at all.


Sort of in the same thought process with a little different interpretation...what IF JS or Medicis hired Phingst to be there for police questioning of the scene with AS. I'm assuming AS was still there at the crime scene and that was why the attorney went there in person vice waiting to talk to him later...to say to AS, don't say anything, don't incrimate yourself, you're legally not required to answer those questions, etc or to say to LE my Client doesn't need to answer that question. AS may have had little to no money to hire this guy, but surely JS or Medicis would do so...because he appears to be ALL about his image, his company, his PR... My :twocents:

Carrington
07-30-2011, 05:33 PM
http://kims3003.hubpages.com/hub/Who-is-Jonah-Shaknai-Who-Killed-Rebecca-Nalepa-Zahau

Information we have not seem before, to my knowledge, about her ex.
It's a blog, so I don't know if information is correct.

IMO

arielilane
07-30-2011, 05:36 PM
Sort of in the same though process with a little different interpretation...what IF JS or Medicis hired Phingst to be there for police questioning of the scene with AS. I'm assuming AS was still there at the crime scene and that was why the attorney went there in person vice waiting to talk to him later...to say, don't say anything, don't incrimate yourself, you're legally not required to answer those questions, etc. AS may have had little money to hire this guy, but surely JS will do so...because he appears to be ALL about his image, his company, his PR... :twocents:
I agree with your post.

I'd like to add that when a crime or what appears to be a crime, person with money is concerned; not too far behind is an attorney.

SunnieRN
07-30-2011, 05:51 PM
From what I read... Paul Pfingst was seen at the mansion last night. He confirmed he was representing someone associated with the house,but said that person is not Jonah Shacknai. Now what that means I'm not sure. that would mean DS or AS?

Just curious, but do we actually know when GS left San Diego? Could GS be the client that is being represented?

defense101
07-30-2011, 05:55 PM
Just curious, but do we actually know when GS left San Diego? Could GS be the client that is being represented?I believe GS left the day after MS accident. If I'm wrong please correct me.

lauriej
07-30-2011, 05:56 PM
Wednesday evening, former District Attorney and current defense attorney Paul Pfingst showed up at the crime scene. Pfingst confirmed to News 8 that he had been hired to represent someone connected with this case, although he would not specify who his client is.

"I'm not Jonah's lawyer. I've never spoke with him. As far as I know he's not a suspect of any type," Pfingst said in a statement.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend?redirected=true

BBM

Why would he say that? How would he know that? Unless DS, AS or JS told him.


..he may have just been answering the reporter's question, much the same as tim curran answered @ the press conf. when asked if anyone was a suspect-----"no, everyone at this point is a 'witness'.."

..reporter----"mr.pfingst, are you jonah's lawyer?? is he a suspect??"

..pfingst-----"no, i'm not jonahs' lawyer----as far as i know he's not a suspect of any type.."

Curious Me
07-30-2011, 05:56 PM
I wonder who the other clients are of that PR team that was hired? Media clients, perhaps? As soon as that PR team was hired, it was like a faucet turned OFF! No info. Something to sleuth...it's my BD today, I hate BD's...but I gotta go out w/the kids and act happy, lol...or I'd search myself...

ALL IMO

:bdsurprise:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY PALADINE!

:bdsong:

jjenny
07-30-2011, 05:59 PM
The houses are so close. I wonder if any neighbors heard anything?

Loud music? At least that what was reported. Loud music obviously could be used to cover up any sort of noise one doesn't want neighbors to hear.

time
07-30-2011, 06:00 PM
[/b]

BBM

His apartment manager said "he saw him a couple days ago". The article was written on the 15th; MS had his "accident" on the the 11th. Did he see him Sunday, Monday or Tuesday am (not sure when he arrived at the mansion - Monday/Tueday)....

Did JS or someone send for him? To get information from RN? Do "do the dirty work"?

I don't think RN's death was random either....the way she was found...speak anger, anger, anger..

This was also taken from the article:

Adam Shacknai said from San Diego that the police were questioning him but he did not have anything to do with Nalepa's death.

Why would you say that??? Did JS or DS make such statements????

Without more information, there are to many unanswered questions and theories

scorekeeper ... I could look at it this way. I think more often those that are not guilty plainly say they didn't do it? The wording is a bit odd though, as in, he references a death that someone may have caused and others may have helped (to cover up or plan or whatever)? I don't have the perfect wording to cover all possibilities, it just makes me wonder if he's afraid someone thinks he helped in some way. Is he excluding himself from both a murder AND helping with this statement.

LaLaw2000
07-30-2011, 06:01 PM
I wonder who the other clients are of that PR team that was hired? Media clients, perhaps? As soon as that PR team was hired, it was like a faucet turned OFF! No info. Something to sleuth...it's my BD today, I hate BD's...but I gotta go out w/the kids and act happy, lol...or I'd search myself...

ALL IMO

BBM and O/T:

Happy Birthday, Paladine! Hope it is a great one!!

Inobu
07-30-2011, 06:04 PM
I do find your posts very interesting Inobu.

However I am not following your logic.

Are you saying Adam knew ahead of time that Maxie was going to fall down the stairs and die and RN was going to die too?:waitasec:

IMO

Adam Shacknai lives in an apartment in Midtown Memphis. His leasing agent neighbor, Robert Sanders, said he last saw him a few days ago.

"He said that he was going to have to go back out on the tugboat company he works for," said Sanders.

Instead, Adam Shacknai ended up in San Diego in a guest house in his brother's mansion.


Robert was under the impression that AS was going back to the tugboat based on what AS told him.

The critical point is when did he have that conversation with AS?

Alibi's are established by someone collaborating the location of another.

Robert thought AS was going to the tugboat based on AS comment.

MS was rushed to the hospital on July 11 if the comment between AS and Robert occurred before MS accident then the comment has truth and a casual conversation.

If the comment was made after July 11 and AS knew about MS accident and was in the way to San Diego He should have told Robert that he was going to San Diego and not the tug boat. The question is when did AS arrive in San Diego and did he know he was going to San Diego when he had the conversation with Robert.

The article was written July 15. Robert said that he talked to AS a few days ago. Lets say a few days ago is 3. Then his conversation took place on the July 12th. If AS knew about the accident then his response would have been "I might have to go to San Diego instead of the tugboat". This is why the date of the conversation is important.

It establish a time line and an account of AS moves

The way the story is written AS was "living" in San Diego but that is not the case he was visiting. AS must have just arrived based on the conversation with the housing agent in Memphis this sheds more light on why and how AS enters the picture.



Adam certainly isn't the only family member that has compromised a scene when they have found a loved one dead from murder, natural causes, overdoses or suicides. I really don't think he was thinking about Crime Scene 101 at the time all of this was happening.

How can we judge people's credibility when we have not even seen them or heard them speak?

You did not need to meet or know OJ to know that the inconsistencies with Nicole and Ron case had foul play as in this case.



I don't think her neck had to be necessarily broken. The balcony was not up real high. I imagine there was spinal damage and brain stem damage but she most likely died from asphyxiation. Had she jumped off the balcony without a rope she may have broken her neck and some of her lower extremities. In the photo her face is straight up. It does not look like the neck is broken Her face doesn't even look bloated, blackened and swollen imo.


It is not the height that breaks the neck it is the weight and tension she had enough weight but the height is unknown. They have to measure the rope and its length. Your latter comment questions the hanging too. What you listed are the tell tale signs which goes against his claim that she was hanging when he got to that area.



I would imagine since time was of the essence he cut her down first and then dialed 911. I think it is misinformation that she was ever face down. Imo she laid in the same position seen in the photos until the ME came out the the scene later that night after the SW was obtaine. By the time the media helicopter swooped in around 2 pm the medics had long been on the scene when called early that morning.

Point 2 his reasoning to moving the body was to revive her. Where as there is no evidence of him making an attempt just as you pointed out.



Did Adam say he did CPR? He may have jumped up on the table and grabbed her around the hips/legs or waist and tried to lift her body up to relieve the tension on her neck from the rope while trying to cut her down. If the electrical cord was around her neck (which I am not sure it was) then he would have tried to remove it hoping she could breathe or at least loosened it way up.

IMO
CPR is the only revival means he could perform. If he cannot perform CPR then how cant you attempt to do something you don"t know how to do?

Even you are point out all the inconsistencies that should have been done based on his reasoning for cutting her down. The photo shows nothing but a body dumping so to speak. The only thing he was successful at is disrupting the investigation scene.

defense101
07-30-2011, 06:18 PM
snipped
Originally posted by Inobu


Point 2 his reasoning to moving the body was to revive her. Where as there is no evidence of him making an attempt just as you pointed out.


CPR is the only revival means he could perform. If he cannot perform CPR then how cant you attempt to do something you don"t know how to do?

Even you are point out all the inconsistencies that should have been done based on his reasoning for cutting her down. The photo shows nothing but a body dumping so to speak. The only thing he was successful at is disrupting the investigation scene.[/QUOTE]


Exactly, and in the press conference, A journalist asks him " When Adam made the 911 call, he said what?", and Capt. Curran replies "That there was a woman on the property and that she appeared to be dead". This would tell me he knew when he made the call that she was dead, what I find interesting is that he said "there was a woman on the property" as if disconnecting any connection to RN, why not say my brothers girlfriend?

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 06:22 PM
scorekeeper ... I could look at it this way. I think more often those that are not guilty plainly say they didn't do it? The wording is a bit odd though, as in, he references a death that someone may have caused and others may have helped (to cover up or plan or whatever)? I don't have the perfect wording to cover all possibilities, it just makes me wonder if he's afraid someone thinks he helped in some way. Is he excluding himself from both a murder AND helping with this statement.

It is understandable when the death investigation began that LE would come right out and ask Dina, Jonah or Adam if either one of them had anything to do with Rebecca's death. I would be amazed to learn LE did not go this route since the death had been ruled suspicious. Remember LE was/is in an investigative mode with no determination reached.

LE takes the opportunity when it presents itself and asking them early on lets them know they are going to get to the bottom of it one way or another. They do this to watch their reactions and how they answer the questions.

So Adam denying he had anything to do with Rebecca's death is just reaffirming what he has already told LE. I really dont see a motive for Adam to be involved.

Now it doesn't mean in the end the death wont be ruled a suicide but LE knows usually they have only one or two bites at the apple before everyone will lawyer up even if they are innocent because they may think LE is going to try a pin a homicide on them.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 06:30 PM
Snipped. IMO, "efforts to revive" could mean a variety of things, such as feeling for a pulse, lightly slapping the face, loosening the noose, etc. IMO, I don't think it matters if it was done by AS, LE or EMTs. Actual CPR may never have happened, but efforts were made to determine if it even plausible to attempt, and then she was pronounced dead at the scene.

I also don't think AS lied to his LL about his whereabouts, especially if left in a hurry. I'm not "liking" AS for this if it was indeed a homicide. Too many other <unusual> persons involved. MOO

I agree. He may have thought if he cut her down and loosened the tension on the noose ......she might be able to breathe.

It is impossible to get into the mind of someone who is having to face such traumatic circumstances.

IMO

jjenny
07-30-2011, 06:32 PM
I agree. He may have thought if he cut her down and loosened the tension on the noose ......she might be able to breathe.

It is impossible to get into the mind of someone who is having to face such traumatic circumstances.

IMO

Well whatever his intentions were, unfortunately all it accomplished is disturbing the scene.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 06:33 PM
snipped
Originally posted by Inobu


Point 2 his reasoning to moving the body was to revive her. Where as there is no evidence of him making an attempt just as you pointed out.


CPR is the only revival means he could perform. If he cannot perform CPR then how cant you attempt to do something you don"t know how to do?

Even you are point out all the inconsistencies that should have been done based on his reasoning for cutting her down. The photo shows nothing but a body dumping so to speak. The only thing he was successful at is disrupting the investigation scene.


Exactly, and in the press conference, A journalist asks him " When Adam made the 911 call, he said what?", and Capt. Curran replies "That there was a woman on the property and that she appeared to be dead". This would tell me he knew when he made the call that she was dead, what I find interesting is that he said "there was a woman on the property" as if disconnecting any connection to RN, why not say my brothers girlfriend?[/QUOTE]

Good catch...........

Don't just listen but listen to the words they say.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 06:37 PM
I have been thinking about trailing cord. It is possible when AS cut RN down and was putting her on ground that the cord..rope got tangled around him. He could have flung it off ..making this looked unnatural.

The position of the rope on the neck can cause the neck to snap ..ie in nazi times they did much testing on the position of the rope. The neck does not always break when a person is hanged.

scorekeeper
07-30-2011, 06:45 PM
http://kims3003.hubpages.com/hub/Who-is-Jonah-Shaknai-Who-Killed-Rebecca-Nalepa-Zahau

Information we have not seem before, to my knowledge, about her ex.
It's a blog, so I don't know if information is correct.

IMO

another interesting quote....


http://kims3003.hubpages.com/hub/Who-is-Jonah-Shaknai-Who-Killed-Rebecca-Nalepa-Zahau


According to court documents, Kimberly James requested an order of protection against Mr. Shaknai when she filed for divorce. She also asked for the filing fees to be waived and did not have legal representation. Court documents indicate Kimberly petitioned the courts for a mental health expert in regards to the child visitation and custody. The courts also subpoenaed mental health records in the case.

BBM

Hmmmm. if a reliable source...

JS definitely seems to have anger/power issues...and not just with DS...

Appears to me to be a dominating male..my way or the highway..dislike of females....user....IMO

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 06:55 PM
Adam Shacknai lives in an apartment in Midtown Memphis. His leasing agent neighbor, Robert Sanders, said he last saw him a few days ago.

"He said that he was going to have to go back out on the tugboat company he works for," said Sanders.

Instead, Adam Shacknai ended up in San Diego in a guest house in his brother's mansion.


Robert was under the impression that AS was going back to the tugboat based on what AS told him.

The critical point is when did he have that conversation with AS?

Alibi's are established by someone collaborating the location of another.

Robert thought AS was going to the tugboat based on AS comment.

MS was rushed to the hospital on July 11 if the comment between AS and Robert occurred before MS accident then the comment has truth and a casual conversation.

If the comment was made after July 11 and AS knew about MS accident and was in the way to San Diego He should have told Robert that he was going to San Diego and not the tug boat. The question is when did AS arrive in San Diego and did he know he was going to San Diego when he had the conversation with Robert.

The article was written July 15. Robert said that he talked to AS a few days ago. Lets say a few days ago is 3. Then his conversation took place on the July 12th. If AS knew about the accident then his response would have been "I might have to go to San Diego instead of the tugboat". This is why the date of the conversation is important.

It establish a time line and an account of AS moves

The way the story is written AS was "living" in San Diego but that is not the case he was visiting. AS must have just arrived based on the conversation with the housing agent in Memphis this sheds more light on why and how AS enters the picture.


You did not need to meet or know OJ to know that the inconsistencies with Nicole and Ron case had foul play as in this case.



It is not the height that breaks the neck it is the weight and tension she had enough weight but the height is unknown. They have to measure the rope and its length. Your latter comment questions the hanging too. What you listed are the tell tale signs which goes against his claim that she was hanging when he got to that area.


Point 2 his reasoning to moving the body was to revive her. Where as there is no evidence of him making an attempt just as you pointed out.


CPR is the only revival means he could perform. If he cannot perform CPR then how cant you attempt to do something you don"t know how to do?

Even you are point out all the inconsistencies that should have been done based on his reasoning for cutting her down. The photo shows nothing but a body dumping so to speak. The only thing he was successful at is disrupting the investigation scene.

I see nothing suspicious about Adam. All these hypothetical you pose are just that.........hypotheticals. There is no evidence known or even stated in the media that Adam has lied about anything.

I do not see her body as dumped. I see her placed on the grass with her face up. If you see it as "dumped' then so be it.

I think he did the best he could under the most trying of circumstances. Imo he cut her down. He loosened the noose hoping she would breathe. No one can get into the mind of the person facing such a dilemma and demand they must do something a certain way. In traumatic situations people do not act rationally or have nerves of steel. They don't always do the right thing nor should they be expected to do so,imo.

I see no correlation between this case and OJs case.

Lets say the 'few days ago' is 4 or 5..6 days but that is like trying to read tealeaves isn't it?

I am not sure what you mean. I do believe he cut her down. I do believe he stood on the table to do so. I do believe he tried to hold her body up to get the tension of the noose loosened from her neck as he cut her down. I do believe he carried her to the grassy soft area rather than laying her on the concrete walkway.

The neck is not always broken in hangings.

I don't fault him for cutting her down. Whether I compromised the scene or not I would never leave someone hanging if there was even a slight possibility they could be saved and I wouldn't know that until I cut them down either.

IMO

jjenny
07-30-2011, 06:57 PM
I think she was dead for hours when paramedics arrived. From the photos it doesn't appear that paramedics attempted CPR, because they couldn't even put her on her back due to her hands bound behind her back. If there were any signs of life I presume they would have attempted CPR and then transported her to the hospital.

mentalsolstice
07-30-2011, 06:59 PM
I have been thinking about trailing cord. It is possible when AS cut RN down and was putting her on ground that the cord..rope got tangled around him. He could have flung it off ..making this looked unnatural.

The position of the rope on the neck can cause the neck to snap ..ie in nazi times they did much testing on the position of the rope. The neck does not always break when a person is hanged.

So many possible scenarios here, KWIM. I'm on the fence about murder or suicide. If it's murder, I'm certainly not ready to pin it on any one person, especially AS. I just don't understand what his motive would have been. From what I've seen and heard (which is mostly hearsay), his story holds up. He told his LL he would be out on a tugboat, and at the last minute he flew to CA because of MS's fall. So what if he didn't tell his LL about the change in plans? I didn't tell my LLs about my activities. And I don't buy it that he was trying to establish an alibi, since he's the one to call LE. And, yes, he may have disturbed a crime scene, but it was done in good faith. MOO!

Inobu
07-30-2011, 07:00 PM
I have been thinking about trailing cord. It is possible when AS cut RN down and was putting her on ground that the cord..rope got tangled around him. He could have flung it off ..making this looked unnatural.

The position of the rope on the neck can cause the neck to snap ..ie in nazi times they did much testing on the position of the rope. The neck does not always break when a person is hanged.

Trying not to get graphic.

What you are saying is true but it depends on the system. In this case we are lead to believe that RN committed suicide with bound hands and feet. The gating issue is her fall. It would have been side ways or an obscure angle what would create a whipping action of the body causing a break.

With the hand a feet tied and the method "off the balcony" means her body would have been above the fulcrum point her weight would create so much force. The comparison is a bungee cord jump just imagine without elastic the abrupt stop.

Getting kinda too graphic.

Best guess her condition was more so asphyxiation of some sort than a hanging and accidental.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 07:01 PM
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/FamilyCourtCases/caseSearch.asp


I typed in his last name..one case is with KJ the other case from 2008 is sealed

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 07:02 PM
Well whatever his intentions were, unfortunately all it accomplished is disturbing the scene.

That may not be all true.

At least he knows he didn't leave her just hanging there and tried to do the best he could. He may need that in order to help him get over seeing the worst image of his life that will haunt him forever, imo.

In the literature it says those who find suicide victims never get over it.

IMO

Carrington
07-30-2011, 07:03 PM
He could have went back to bed and done nothing.
And, when all is said and done he will probably wish he had.
IMO

lauriej
07-30-2011, 07:05 PM
Exactly, and in the press conference, A journalist asks him " When Adam made the 911 call, he said what?", and Capt. Curran replies "That there was a woman on the property and that she appeared to be dead". This would tell me he knew when he made the call that she was dead, what I find interesting is that he said "there was a woman on the property" as if disconnecting any connection to RN, why not say my brothers girlfriend?


Good catch...........

Don't just listen but listen to the words they say.

..i don't take what tim curran says-----as the "actual statement" adam might have made on the 911 call.

911---what is your emergency?
"OMG! i just found rebecca hanging off the balcony! i think she's dead!"

911--what is your emergency?
"there's a woman on the property, it appears that she's dead."

..we have no idea what he actually said---we need to hear/read the transcript OF the 911 call.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 07:05 PM
oceanblueeyes's

Where is AS now?

4Jacy
07-30-2011, 07:11 PM
Happy Bday! :great::seeya:

I know what you mean. I like to celebrate the way I want, not the way others want me to. For instance, my parents always insist on being present. Which means going to a loud chain restaurant (with my dad asking mom every 2 secs, what did s/he say?), and no adult beverages allowed :maddening: . This year for my 50th, I put my foot down and said "it's my party and I'll cry...er drink if I want to." So instead I met them for brunch at Starbux, and had nice dinner with DH at our favorite Lebanese restaurant where we shared a nice bottle of wine...the same restaurant he took me to for my 30th, and it was our 3rd date. My parents weren't happy, but oh well. Unfortunately, they weren't available at any other time for a 2nd celebration, they had other "priorities".

Happy B'Day mental, I'm so glad you still have your parents. Wish I had mine.

defense101
07-30-2011, 07:12 PM
I have been thinking about trailing cord. It is possible when AS cut RN down and was putting her on ground that the cord..rope got tangled around him. He could have flung it off ..making this looked unnatural.

The position of the rope on the neck can cause the neck to snap ..ie in nazi times they did much testing on the position of the rope. The neck does not always break when a person is hanged. I was curious about the cord as well, I found it odd that it trailed in an odd direction if he brought her down off the table, but when I looked at another picture that was taken straight on at the table it didn't look as a far away as the picture taken from a right angle. imo

pferrin
07-30-2011, 07:12 PM
Inobu..It is graphic with a hanging..until autopsy comes in it will be difficult perhaps impossible to figure wheither RN died before or after she was hanged. I have been studying hangings for about a week or more now and have learned more than I really wanted to.

The trailing rope/cord scenario could have happened for several reasons..ie AS flung it away from him.

Am trying to work on all particulars so as not to be scratching my head all the time.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 07:14 PM
He could have went back to bed and done nothing.
And, when all is said and done he will probably wish he had.
IMO

He has been KRONKED. :floorlaugh:

MsFacetious
07-30-2011, 07:17 PM
From what I read... Paul Pfingst was seen at the mansion last night. He confirmed he was representing someone associated with the house,but said that person is not Jonah Shacknai. Now what that means I'm not sure. that would mean DS or AS?

Last night? Did he show up again? :waitasec:

He was seen there July 13th and confirmed he was representing someone other than Jonah... but everyone has left the mansion now as far as we know... just a security guard there.

mentalsolstice
07-30-2011, 07:17 PM
I see nothing suspicious about Adam. All these hypothetical you pose are just that.........hypotheticals. There is no evidence known or even stated in the media that Adam has lied about anything.

I do not see her body as dumped. I see her placed on the grass with her face up. If you see it as "dumped' then so be it.

I think he did the best he could under the most trying of circumstances. Imo he cut her down. He loosened the noose hoping she would breathe. No one can get into the mind of the person facing such a dilemma and demand they must do something a certain way. In traumatic situations people do not act rationally or have nerves of steel. They dont always do the right thing nor should they be expected to do so,imo.

I see no coloration between this case and OJs case.

Lets say the 'few days ago' is 4 or 5..6 days but that is like trying to read tealeaves isn't it?

I am not sure what you mean. I do believe he cut her down. I do believe he stood on the table to do so. I do believe he tried to hold her body up to get the tension of the noose loosened from her neck as he cut her down. I do believe he carried her to the grassy soft area rather than laying her on the concrete walkway.

The neck is not always broken in hangings.

I don't fault him for cutting her down. Whether I compromised the scene or not I would never leave someone hanging if there was even a slight possibility they could be saved and I wouldn't know that until I cut them down either.

IMO

BBM. Your quote reminds of the scene in "An Officer and a Gentleman" where Gere is trying to hoist his friend's body up while trying to untie him, however, he couldn't reach the knot or whatever. I may be wrong about AS, but I simply see him as a person in the wrong place at the wrong time, who tried to do the best he could with whatever knowledge or tools he had with him. Crimes scenes are often disturbed by LE and EMTs if there is any rescue attempt, even if it just means a determination that the person is in fact dead.

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 07:20 PM
oceanblueeyes's

Where is AS now?

I don't have anyway of knowing. Since JS and DS have returned to their home state I would guess AS has returned to the state he resides in.

IMO

Inobu
07-30-2011, 07:43 PM
Inobu..It is graphic with a hanging..until autopsy comes in it will be difficult perhaps impossible to figure wheither RN died before or after she was hanged. I have been studying hangings for about a week or more now and have learned more than I really wanted to.

The trailing rope/cord scenario could have happened for several reasons..ie AS flung it away from him.

Am trying to work on all particulars so as not to be scratching my head all the time.

Everyone is going by what AS said but never applying what and how he did it.

Cut her down.

Cut the rope from the balcony, let the body fall to the ground run down stairs, carry her to the grass so you can revive her? leaving here on her side?

Climb on a three legged table, hold a dead body, lift the tension off the rope and cut it? Climb down carry her to the grass.

When I look at the photo. I see her carried from the right to the grass area with the orange cord dragging behind. The table placed on the walkway.

As for the flinging cord. Very difficult to move dead weight. Have someone pretend to be dead and see how easy it is to move them more so spin 180 with enough force to have a 6 foot cord extend out like the photo.

Inobu
07-30-2011, 07:57 PM
It will be interesting to find out what happened.

The net can make these events surreal to us but we are all Gods children so watch out for one another. Remember to say a prayer for Max and Rebecca. Tragic event in both cases.

You guys enjoy life as we can see that it can be short.

Inobu

defense101
07-30-2011, 07:58 PM
Last night? Did he show up again? :waitasec:

He was seen there July 13th and confirmed he was representing someone other than Jonah... but everyone has left the mansion now as far as we know... just a security guard there. lol no, I was quoting from an article from the 14th.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 08:05 PM
Inobu..Am paying attention to all details including your theories of what happened. I am just looking at the trailing rope and any other possibilities of how it could have gotten in its position other than what you suggest..IMO you have a sharp eye and this may turn out to be what happened.

I think this is as plausible as others I have read here.

pferrin
07-30-2011, 08:11 PM
what was to the right..where could he have been bringing her from?

defense101
07-30-2011, 08:11 PM
How many floors did the manison have? TIA

I found out since I answered your post, there is a finished 1200 sq ft attic as well.

time
07-30-2011, 08:17 PM
It is understandable when the death investigation began that LE would come right out and ask Dina, Jonah or Adam if either one of them had anything to do with Rebecca's death. I would be amazed to learn LE did not go this route since the death had been ruled suspicious. Remember LE was/is in an investigative mode with no determination reached.

LE takes the opportunity when it presents itself and asking them early on lets them know they are going to get to the bottom of it one way or another. They do this to watch their reactions and how they answer the questions.

So Adam denying he had anything to do with Rebecca's death is just reaffirming what he has already told LE. I really dont see a motive for Adam to be involved.

Now it doesn't mean in the end the death wont be ruled a suicide but LE knows usually they have only one or two bites at the apple before everyone will lawyer up even if they are innocent because they may think LE is going to try a pin a homicide on them.

IMO


Yeah, agree. I don't really think Adam had anything to do with harming her. I think it's possible, but unlikely he covered up something. Parsing his words may be to no avail but possibly he already knew he didn't kill her and anticipated someone would think he aided somehow. Poor guy must have been freaked out.

I still think there is often some hint at people statements when asked if they comitted a crime. In this case, it is probably not Adam's statement that's most pertinent.

The most classic statement I remember in a case was when Hans Riser (who murdered his wife) was asked about her and he said something like "I would be the one that wouldn't know" - :waitasec:

gngr~snap
07-30-2011, 08:30 PM
what was to the right..where could he have been bringing her from?
good question! I can't find a decent aerial view!
The guest house? pool? It's so big I don't know what each building is!

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 08:53 PM
Everyone is going by what AS said but never applying what and how he did it.

Cut her down.

Cut the rope from the balcony, let the body fall to the ground run down stairs, carry her to the grass so you can revive her? leaving here on her side?

Climb on a three legged table, hold a dead body, lift the tension off the rope and cut it? Climb down carry her to the grass.

When I look at the photo. I see her carried from the right to the grass area with the orange cord dragging behind. The table placed on the walkway.

As for the flinging cord. Very difficult to move dead weight. Have someone pretend to be dead and see how easy it is to move them more so spin 180 with enough force to have a 6 foot cord extend out like the photo.

I don't think he went up to the balcony to cut her down. That would only put more tension on her neck when he lowered her to the ground while he held onto the rope.

I think he stood on the table....tried to support her body with maybe positioning his shoulder under her butt to relieve the tension as he cut the rope which is seen hanging down at the bottom of the balcony in the middle.

I don't think the table had a leg broken. I think it was a three legged table in its original state. They can be as sturdy as a 4 legged table because the legs are positioned for balance. My husband has a three legged Jawhorse and it is very sturdy. As much or more so than a regular sawhorse.

In traumatic situation it is well known adrenaline kicks in on overload giving the person unusual strength. Men and women have been able to lift cars off of someone who is trapped underneath.

If Adam works on a tugboat then I would think he is physically fit.

I dont see where Adam would have any problem getting her down.

IMO

MizStery
07-30-2011, 09:04 PM
http://kims3003.hubpages.com/hub/Who-is-Jonah-Shaknai-Who-Killed-Rebecca-Nalepa-Zahau

Information we have not seem before, to my knowledge, about her ex.
It's a blog, so I don't know if information is correct.

IMO


I want to be careful of how I word this. This website does not tolerate attacking the victim...and I do not want this post construed that way. In the above link it mentions two incidents that together set off my hinky meter.

-snip
Rebecca was married to Neil Nalepa, 36 years old and divorced on February
28, 2011 in Arizona. Just three months later, Rebecca requested from the courts for her name to be restored to Zahau.

When Neil Nalepa petitioned the courts for divorce he asked for the filing fees
to be waived. Court documents also indicate that Mr. Nalepa has had a few civil suits over the past couple of years for money he owes from*evictions*at apartment complexes.

Court records also show that Rebecca was charged with shoplifting a few years
ago when she took $1,000 worth of jewelry from*Macy's.

As I stated my hinky meter went off. Let's say Mr.Napela could have been blackmailing RN. He obviously from the link has experienced financial difficulties. RN could have knowledge of Mr.Napela & his nefarious dealing. Perhaps,... and I am going out on a limb & speculate he told RN he would tell JS something unflattering about RN.He might have said he would tell JS unless she gave him money or shared in her good fortune.

Fast forward to now. Perhaps RN after she got the divorce told Mr. Napela that she didn't care what he said or did and to get lost.

He resents and thinks her changed after moving in with JS. She is not willing to share her good fortune with him. He waits until he is sure she is alone(opportunity) goes to the mansion and extracts his revenge.

This is just a theory. MOO

Carrington
07-30-2011, 09:30 PM
I too will be careful how I word this. People have been known to work together in extracting money from the rich. No fool like an old fool and all that.
Not that JS is that old, just compared to her.
ETA: He is on my list of suspects, after the discussion on the credit card bill. And, I hope everyone knows about their last discussion, and I don't have to chase a link.


IMO

defense101
07-30-2011, 09:38 PM
I want to be careful of how I word this. This website does not tolerate attacking the victim...and I do not want this post construed that way. In the above link it mentions two incidents that together set off my hinky meter.

-snip
Rebecca was married to Neil Nalepa, 36 years old and divorced on February
28, 2011 in Arizona. Just three months later, Rebecca requested from the courts for her name to be restored to Zahau.

When Neil Nalepa petitioned the courts for divorce he asked for the filing fees
to be waived. Court documents also indicate that Mr. Nalepa has had a few civil suits over the past couple of years for money he owes from*evictions*at apartment complexes.

Court records also show that Rebecca was charged with shoplifting a few years
ago when she took $1,000 worth of jewelry from*Macy's.

As I stated my hinky meter went off. Let's say Mr.Napela could have been blackmailing RN. He obviously from the link has experienced financial difficulties. RN could have knowledge of Mr.Napela & his nefarious dealing. Perhaps,... and I am going out on a limb & speculate he told RN he would tell JS something unflattering about RN.He might have said he would tell JS unless she gave him money or shared in her good fortune.

Fast forward to now. Perhaps RN after she got the divorce told Mr. Napela that she didn't care what he said or did and to get lost.

He resents and thinks her changed after moving in with JS. She is not willing to share her good fortune with him. He waits until he is sure she is alone(opportunity) goes to the mansion and extracts his revenge.

This is just a theory. MOO

I did a search of AZ court records and didn't find any records regarding evictions with NN ? I wonder where they found their information?

IzzyBlanche
07-30-2011, 09:39 PM
I agree, I can't get off her either. IMO this would mean her total disconnection from JS, MS is the only thing that kept her connected to JS. As well, just the condition of MS would be enough for a mother to go looking for angry revenge on the person they thought responsible.


I'm sorry if I'm being really stupid here, but why would DS (or any woman) have trouble letting go of a man that she stood up in front of God and everybody and claimed abused her?

If she received some sort of alimony in the divorce settlement, that is not going to be contingent upon Max being alive or not, unless that is a most unusual settlement. Legally JS has to pay it no matter what.

Any child support she was awarded for Max has to be spent on Max, not herself.

So I don't see money being a motive.

Why, then, would she not want to let go of her abuser? :waitasec:

ETA: Yes, I am well aware of battered woman syndrome. However, once the woman reaches the point of litigation and public accusation, it is highly unusual for her to return to the batterer if he pursues her, and almost unheard of if he does not.

Nor have I ever heard of an instance where a battered woman pursued her abuser after the fact; usually such women return to their abusers only because the abuser pursues them and the woman feels she has no other choice financially but to go back. With a well-paying career of her own, DS was obviously not in that situation.

nanny2five
07-30-2011, 09:41 PM
I am an female electrician by trade..have been for many years. I have worked with the orange electrical cords for most of my adult life. They come in all sizes. Even with all my experience with extension cords..(and I know how to tie those suckers) never never ever would I use one to commit suicide. Nope...I could see her using belts..belts from robes..silk scarves..ribboons..sheets..but not an extension cord.

If I ..who has prolly more experience with extension cords than about any human in coronado beach california..would not use it to hang myself..I know she didn't.

pferrin, i am behind as usual, sorry if this has already been addressed. i think i agree with you, but not having the use experience with those sorts of cords that you have i couldn't be sure it would be a bad choice. can you give us example of reasons it would be a bad choice? is it the size? bulkiness? thanks for your insight:)

nanny2five
07-30-2011, 09:49 PM
There would be difference jjenny.

If they made her jump I would think there would be signs off a struggle. Rebecca just wouldn't say 'ok Ill jump" she would fight to live. That is just a normal instinct when self preservation kicks in and it has been said that she was in great physical shape. So imo they would find defensive wounds on her hands and arms as she wrestled with the person trying to tie her up and would see signs of a struggle in and near the balcony area.

She would not just stand there doing nothing while the person but a noose around her neck or bound her wrists and feet up.

I am sure LE has had to figure out before if a death was a suicide or a homicide and they look for certain factors that point in one direction or the other.

The knots also can be a key piece of evidence. They most likely will call in a knot expert to get their opinion whether she made the knots herself or they believe the particular knot was used by another with a specific background and trade.

IMO

nobody could force me to jump. how about ya'll? not even at gunpoint. they would have to shoot me or shove me.

eta: i agree with someone upthread in that i believe she was expired before she ever went over the railing. how many crime scene photos have ya'll looked at? some of you have looked at hundreds or even thousands and i have looked at a few myself and imo the position she was in was the position she died in and she didn't die in that position hanging by her neck. jmo

Carrington
07-30-2011, 09:49 PM
I believe JS divorced Dina, and she did not want a divorce.
Neil divorced Rebecca.
IMO

pferrin
07-30-2011, 09:56 PM
I did a search of AZ court records and didn't find any records regarding evictions with NN ? I wonder where they found their information?

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/JusticeCourtCases/caseSearch.asp

Howdy Defense..here is a place to check..a couple of things on NN

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 09:56 PM
I'm sorry if I'm being really stupid here, but why would DS (or any woman) have trouble letting go of a man that she stood up in front of God and everybody and claimed abused her?

If she received some sort of alimony in the divorce settlement, that is not going to be contingent upon Max being alive or not, unless that is a most unusual settlement. Legally JS has to pay it no matter what.

Any child support she was awarded for Max has to be spent on Max, not herself.

So I don't see money being a motive.

Why, then, would she not want to let go of her abuser? :waitasec:

ETA: Yes, I am well aware of battered woman syndrome. However, once the woman reaches the point of litigation and public accusation, it is highly unusual for her to return to the batterer if he pursues her, and almost unheard of if he does not.

Nor have I ever heard of an instance where a battered woman pursued her abuser after the fact; usually such women return to their abusers only because the abuser pursues them and the woman feels she has no other choice financially but to go back. With a well-paying career of her own, DS was obviously not in that situation.

Frankly I think the abuse done was tit for tat between the both of them. They both seemed to be highly emotionally charged and the slightest thing seems to set them both off especially during their breaking up period.

I think it is like most divorces. Usually one wants out and the other one fights it and wants the spouse to stay. It seems Jonah wanted out and Dina did not want him to leave her.

So she could have still loved him.

imo

defense101
07-30-2011, 09:56 PM
I'm sorry if I'm being really stupid here, but why would DS (or any woman) have trouble letting go of a man that she stood up in front of God and everybody and claimed abused her?

If she received some sort of alimony in the divorce settlement, that is not going to be contingent upon Max being alive or not, unless that is a most unusual settlement. Legally JS has to pay it no matter what.

Any child support she was awarded for Max has to be spent on Max, not herself.

So I don't see money being a motive.

Why, then, would she not want to let go of her abuser? :waitasec:

ETA: Yes, I am well aware of battered woman syndrome. However, once the woman reaches the point of litigation and public accusation, it is highly unusual for her to return to the batterer if he pursues her, and almost unheard of if he does not.

Nor have I ever heard of an instance where a battered woman pursued her abuser after the fact; usually such women return to their abusers only because the abuser pursues them and the woman feels she has no other choice financially but to go back. With a well-paying career of her own, DS was obviously not in that situation. Perhaps she did not want the divorce in the first place?
"Early the next year, Ms Shacknai, a child psychologist, called police claiming her husband had elbowed her in the right breast and swore at her as he attempted to drive away from the house.
He had visited the marital home - after leaving it several days earlier - to take Max out to dinner and then read him a bedtime story, Mr Shacknai told police.
He also claimed he didn't strike her, saying instead she tried to pull the keys out of his car while yelling 'You cannot leave me!'
He claims his wife laid down on the driveway in front of the car to stop him leaving.
According to the report, she then 'jumped on the front of the car... tried to push her way into the car... slapping him around the face and shoulders.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2016550/Rebecca-Nalepas-lover-Jonah-Shacknai-violent-marriage-ex-wife-Dina.html#ixzz1Tdz9TKeV

nanny2five
07-30-2011, 09:58 PM
I too will be careful how I word this. People have been known to work together in extracting money from the rich. No fool like an old fool and all that.
Not that JS is that old, just compared to her.
ETA: He is on my list of suspects, after the discussion on the credit card bill. And, I hope everyone knows about their last discussion, and I don't have to chase a link.


IMO

i am reading backwards so i might have missed it. i saw that he said their last discussion was about a joint credit card but i didn't see that i was about the bill. don't chase the link tho, i am reading backwards so i should run into it. if i do i will send it down :)

defense101
07-30-2011, 10:00 PM
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/JusticeCourtCases/caseSearch.asp

Howdy Defense..here is a place to check..a couple of things on NN thanks pferrin !

pferrin
07-30-2011, 10:07 PM
pferrin, i am behind as usual, sorry if this has already been addressed. i think i agree with you, but not having the use experience with those sorts of cords that you have i couldn't be sure it would be a bad choice. can you give us example of reasons it would be a bad choice? is it the size? bulkiness? thanks for your insight:)

Hi Nanny..be glad to.

Electrical cords do not hold a knot well at all..unless you are a sailor or used to mountain climbing knots.
They are slippery.
The end loosens very quickly..difficult to tighten.
Almost impossible to tie around your own hands to make it secure

If you use duct tape or electrical tape you could have knots stay secure for a longer period of time.
And yes they are bulky to work with.
Alot heavier than normal rope.
The larger diameter electrical cord..the more difficult to work with.
I was rolling up an elctrical cord the other day and my brother said electricians are the only ones that can tie cords up...not true ..but they are challenging :fence:

Wendy101
07-30-2011, 10:10 PM
what was to the right..where could he have been bringing her from?

Maybe the garage or guest house?

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 10:10 PM
nobody could force me to jump. how about ya'll? not even at gunpoint. they would have to shoot me or shove me.

eta: i agree with someone upthread in that i believe she was expired before she ever went over the railing. how many crime scene photos have ya'll looked at? some of you have looked at hundreds or even thousands and i have looked at a few myself and imo the position she was in was the position she died in and she didn't die in that position hanging by her neck. jmo

I would fight with all my might. I would wrestle for the gun if a gun was pulled on me or even a knife because I would know if I let myself be bound I would have no chance whatsoever to survive but be at the mercy of the one who bound me.

Now having said that..........I am one of those who has looked at thousands of crime scene photos over the years.

But with these photos I cannot say that was the position she was in when she died. These photos were taken at 2:00 pm later in the afternoon. It does not show us where she was located before the 911 6:45 am call.

Although there is a short rope hanging from the bottom middle of the balcony. All it shows us is where her body was located once she was cut down and placed on the soft grassy area. The EMTs came on right after the 911 call.

So imo all it shows is she had been mostly laid out straight except slightly more on one side due to her hands being bound behind her back. Her face is straight up though. I am sure the EMTs checked her eyes to see if they were fixed and dialated or with any signs of life when they arrived.

IMO

Wendy101
07-30-2011, 10:14 PM
Perhaps she did not want the divorce in the first place?
"Early the next year, Ms Shacknai, a child psychologist, called police claiming her husband had elbowed her in the right breast and swore at her as he attempted to drive away from the house.
He had visited the marital home - after leaving it several days earlier - to take Max out to dinner and then read him a bedtime story, Mr Shacknai told police.
He also claimed he didn't strike her, saying instead she tried to pull the keys out of his car while yelling 'You cannot leave me!'
He claims his wife laid down on the driveway in front of the car to stop him leaving.
According to the report, she then 'jumped on the front of the car... tried to push her way into the car... slapping him around the face and shoulders.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2016550/Rebecca-Nalepas-lover-Jonah-Shacknai-violent-marriage-ex-wife-Dina.html#ixzz1Tdz9TKeV

Wow! Wonder if she was allowed to keep her job as a child psychologist?

pferrin
07-30-2011, 10:15 PM
Frankly I think the abuse done was tit for tat between the both of them. They both seemed to be highly emotionally charged and the slightest thing seems to set them both off especially during their breaking up period.

I think it is like most divorces. Usually one wants out and the other one fights it and wants the spouse to stay. It seems Jonah wanted out and Dina did not want him to leave her.

So she could have still loved him.

imo

I concur..hehehe.

And this statement may be upsetting to some..but some dogs have good sense. If JS was the dogs master and she was yelling at JS ..dog bite.

My dogs would do it in a New York second. Animals are protective.

Now if the dog bit her when she was being a sweetie pie..then that is a whole different issue.

MizStery
07-30-2011, 10:20 PM
Wow! Wonder if she was allowed to keep her job as a child psychologist?

And Wendy he,he,he I assume you are no mental health expert.:floorlaugh:

pferrin
07-30-2011, 10:32 PM
And Wendy he,he,he I assume you are no mental health expert.:floorlaugh:

and equally important to ask..Wendy are you a grief counselor..hehehe
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

oceanblueeyes
07-30-2011, 10:35 PM
I concur..hehehe.

And this statement may be upsetting to some..but some dogs have good sense. If JS was the dogs master and she was yelling at JS ..dog bite.

My dogs would do it in a New York second. Animals are protective.

Now if the dog bit her when she was being a sweetie pie..then that is a whole different issue.

We have some friends who has a dog like that. Their dog is so bonded to the husband and is spoiled rotten, lol, and his wife cant even 'play' like she is hitting him on the shoulder without the dog going nuts showing his teeth in a menacing snarl and growling and barking like a crazy Cujo.:floorlaugh:

Its strange. The dog loves the wife too and everything is fine as long as the dog thinks everything is ok between the two of them. We are always telling them that dog keeps them on the straight and narrow. :floorlaugh:

IMO

Carrington
07-30-2011, 10:36 PM
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/JusticeCourtCases/caseSearch.asp

Howdy Defense..here is a place to check..a couple of things on NN

And, the article checks out.
IMO

nanny2five
07-30-2011, 10:44 PM
[/B]

BBM

His apartment manager said "he saw him a couple days ago". The article was written on the 15th; MS had his "accident" on the the 11th. Did he see him Sunday, Monday or Tuesday am (not sure when he arrived at the mansion - Monday/Tueday)....

Did JS or someone send for him? To get information from RN? Do "do the dirty work"?

I don't think RN's death was random either....the way she was found...speak anger, anger, anger..

This was also taken from the article:

Adam Shacknai said from San Diego that the police were questioning him but he did not have anything to do with Nalepa's death.

Why would you say that??? Did JS or DS make such statements????

Without more information, there are to many unanswered questions and theories

he probably said it because the reporter ask him if he had anything to do with her death.

arielilane
07-30-2011, 10:45 PM
I'm sorry if I'm being really stupid here, but why would DS (or any woman) have trouble letting go of a man that she stood up in front of God and everybody and claimed abused her?

If she received some sort of alimony in the divorce settlement, that is not going to be contingent upon Max being alive or not, unless that is a most unusual settlement. Legally JS has to pay it no matter what.

Any child support she was awarded for Max has to be spent on Max, not herself.

So I don't see money being a motive.

Why, then, would she not want to let go of her abuser? :waitasec:

ETA: Yes, I am well aware of battered woman syndrome. However, once the woman reaches the point of litigation and public accusation, it is nhighly unusual for her to return to the batterer if he pursues her, and almost unheard of if he does not.

Nor have I ever heard of an instance where a battered woman pursued her abuser after the fact; usually such women return to their abusers only because the abuser pursues them and the woman feels she has no other choice financially but to go back. With a well-paying career of her own, DS was obviously not in that situation.
It's really complicated, but it happens. Some people just can't handle rejection. There is a lot of dysfunctional behavior. I suspect it became worse when another woman came in the picture and became a part of the child's life.

defense101
07-30-2011, 10:45 PM
And, the article checks out.
IMO Does anyone know of NN's whereabouts when this happened. I found it strange that he said he didn't find out about her death until Thursday, I'm in Canada and I heard about it on the day it happened.