PDA

View Full Version : Madeleine McCann found?


Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5

tk71texas
07-28-2011, 08:11 AM
where is the forum discussion for her? I wanted to post an article about a possible sighting and dna testing done in india....but i searched and can't find anything :waitasec:

Donjeta
07-28-2011, 08:30 AM
The forum has been pulled.
Madeline McCann Forum - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

~n/t~
07-28-2011, 09:34 AM
Nancy Grace is covering her case tonight. Apparently cops take DNA taken from a girl who they think is Maddie.

I've only seen it posted on NG's FB page so far. Going to look if anything else is online.

http://www.facebook.com/NancyGraceHLN


Personally, it would be wonderful if it is Madeleine but I've always believed she was no longer with us. Is it another PR ploy? We'll see.

Kimberlyd125
07-28-2011, 09:35 AM
Wow!!!

WillenFan21
07-28-2011, 09:37 AM
I just saw that Nancy Grace Facebook had something about this and came here. Maybe they will bring the forum back?

jjenny
07-28-2011, 09:40 AM
I clearly remember some years ago another child was suspected to be Madeline. Turns out she was not. So I take this all with a grain of salt.
Even if cops are taking DNA samples, it could be from someone resembling her but not actually her.

Kimberlyd125
07-28-2011, 09:41 AM
I'm thankful they are still trying though.

JenniferTx
07-28-2011, 09:42 AM
Wow really? I wonder if it really is her?

ohiogirl
07-28-2011, 09:43 AM
Has missing girl Madeleine McCann finally been found? Cops reportedly take DNA from a young girl British and American tourists are saying could be the missing tot allegedly snatched from a resort she and her family were visiting right before her fourth birthday. Tune into Nancy Grace tonight for the latest developments at 8 PM ET on HLN.

Why on earth would american tourists say this could be her? How would they know.
I think this is another NG "bombshell" that means nothing. jmo of course. But, I would have to think that the DNA results are not back yet.

BeanE
07-28-2011, 09:44 AM
Omg it's all over MSM news. Here's a google search for the most recent stories about it. There are a ton of them:

Madeleine McCann - Google Search

Evan's Mom
07-28-2011, 09:45 AM
I hope it's her.

waltzingmatilda
07-28-2011, 09:46 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019698/Madeleine-McCann-spotted-north-Indian-market-tourist.html

~n/t~
07-28-2011, 09:52 AM
I think it's just another PR spin by the McCanns. :innocent:

~n/t~
07-28-2011, 09:54 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019698/Madeleine-McCann-spotted-north-Indian-market-tourist.html

LOL...I didn't realize it was India when I first posted the "bombshell"

From the link:

However the French woman and her Belgian husband, who had their passports copied by Leh Police, insist that they are the parents of the girl.

Gosh, I hope not another innocent family put into this mess. Remember what happened in Saudi Arabia? *sigh*

Peliman
07-28-2011, 09:57 AM
Can't miss her eye defect if it is her they found. Hope so!

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_01/Madeye1305_228x192.jpg

~n/t~
07-28-2011, 09:59 AM
Madeleine McCann: Twitter Explodes As She May Have Been Found

http://www.onlinesocialmedia.net/20110728/madeline-mccann-twitter-explodes-as-she-may-have-been-found/

~n/t~
07-28-2011, 10:02 AM
McCann parents await DNA test on girl

http://www.newstalk.ie/2011/news/mccann-parents-await-dna-test-on-girl/

Donjeta
07-28-2011, 10:02 AM
The report in the Tribune said a British woman raised concerns with other tourists that they had found the missing girl.

At one point an American man is said to have tried to take the girl from the couple.

However the French woman and her Belgian husband, who had their passports copied by Leh Police, insist that they are the parents of the girl.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019698/Madeleine-McCann-spotted-north-Indian-market-tourist.html

It would be wonderful if it was Madeleine but I don't think so. These people can have only a vague idea of how Madeleine looks now and there must be thousands and thousands of little girls who resemble a vague idea of what Madeleine could look like four years older.

As far as I'm concerned, until the DNA confirms that it is Madeleine, this is just some unfortunate little girl who got accosted and frightened by an American man and parents who stayed to insist what they know the DNA will prove.

The parents' representative is playing it down.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/latest/2011/07/28/madeleine-sighting-played-down-115875-23303105/

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019698/Madeleine-McCann-spotted-north-Indian-market-tourist.html#ixzz1TPMqDl00

~n/t~
07-28-2011, 10:03 AM
McCann sighting denied

1.51PM Thu Jul 28 2011
The family of Madeleine McCann has played down a reported sighting of their missing daughter in India.

Speaking to ITV News family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "Nothing leads us to believe that this 'sighting' is any more credible than any others."

Police were thought to be investigating after a British woman spotted a six-year-old girl who appeared to look like Madeleine in the city of Leh in the north of the country on Friday.
http://www.itv.com/news/mccann-sighting-denied66269/

~n/t~
07-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Nigello Nigel Henry Doran
BBC Delhi: Chief of Police in Leh, Vivek Gupta: claims of sighting of Madeline #McCann 'false'; not been approached by anyone for DNA test.

Melanie
07-28-2011, 10:33 AM
:( and I was so hopeful. I can't imagine taking a child from a couple and demanding a DNA test based on looks. There has to be something else (ie, not being able to produce a birth certificate). Children would be tested all over based on tips!

JMHO -- thanks. I certainly hope Madeleine is found soon.

Mel

Melanie
07-28-2011, 10:37 AM
Oh Maddie has been pulled? I thought we kept a thread for cold cases?

Mel

angela
07-28-2011, 10:45 AM
Can't miss her eye defect if it is her they found. Hope so!

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_01/Madeye1305_228x192.jpg
Exactly! What are the odds of another young girl resembling Madeline having the same eye defect? If this child does not have it, this family should not be put through this.

raeann
07-28-2011, 10:56 AM
Oh Maddie has been pulled? I thought we kept a thread for cold cases?

Mel

WS does have the cold cases files, but Maddie's was pulled a LONG time ago for some exceptional reasons....a mod can explain the reasons, as I am not sure I know exactly.

jmo

Donjeta
07-28-2011, 11:42 AM
I think this is the article everyone seems to be quoting about the anonymous police official's words.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110724/main4.htm

A local police official said there was worldwide alert for Madeleine and it would be a great honour for the Leh police to find the missing girl. “However, it all depends upon the evidence like DNA for which help from Madeleine’s parents and the British police was required.”

"was required" seems to imply they asked and got help from the parents and the British police to resolve the issue. And if it's not true...? Strange.

Anyway, I don't see why there would be any need for Madeleine's parents and the British police to be involved initially. Wouldn't testing the child and her parents be sufficient? If it turned out she was in fact their biological child, I don't see why they would need Madeleine's DNA at all. The fastest method could be to call the police in France or Belgium or wherever they live and ask them to confirm that this couple had this child before 2007.

~n/t~
07-28-2011, 11:55 AM
WS does have the cold cases files, but Maddie's was pulled a LONG time ago for some exceptional reasons....a mod can explain the reasons, as I am not sure I know exactly.

jmo

I don't know either but can take a guess. Pat Brown's book was banned from being sold on Amazon by the McCann's. I'm guessing it's either they're way or no way. :twocents:

cluciano63
07-28-2011, 12:38 PM
I have my doubts...are there other reports, beisde the Uk paper and NG?

wfgodot
07-28-2011, 12:41 PM
Stories like this have become grotesque.

cluciano63
07-28-2011, 12:49 PM
Daily Mail is not exactly a paragon of journalistic standards...not seeing anything on the main news sites, is. msnbc, or the AP wire...anyone else?

Donjeta
07-28-2011, 01:07 PM
A regional Indian police chief told CNN that he knew nothing about the sighting, and dismissed reports of a possible DNA test on the girl. "We have not recovered any girl from Leh," said Abdul Gani Mir, deputy inspector general of police for central Kashmir and Leh. "I checked and re-checked from my officers on ground in Leh and they have categorically told me they have not recovered the girl."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/28/madeleine-mccann-sighting-india-investigation-_n_912011.html

CNN: "There is no question of carrying out DNA when you don't have the girl. I checked and re-checked from my officers on ground in Leh and they have categorically told me they have not recovered the girl," Mir told CNN.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/07/28/india.madeleine.mccann/

KaylynnCouture
07-28-2011, 01:14 PM
I really hope it's Maddie, but like everyone else, I have my doubts.

Does anyone know when the DNA test results are expected to come back?

eileenhawkeye
07-28-2011, 01:14 PM
I was hopeful because the first reports said that they were checking DNA and I don't believe they did that for all the other sightings....but now it looks like it was a false alarm :(

Lera213
07-28-2011, 01:42 PM
dang!

AnaTeresa
07-28-2011, 01:50 PM
Ugh. Looks like it's just media sensationalism.

cluciano63
07-28-2011, 01:51 PM
Ugh. Looks like it's just media sensationalism.

Won't stop NG from reporting on it as a "bombshell" or "breaking news" even if it has been proved completely false by show time :)

OneLostGrl
07-28-2011, 02:48 PM
where is the forum discussion for her? I wanted to post an article about a possible sighting and dna testing done in india....but i searched and can't find anything :waitasec:

Wow.. thanks for letting us know about this!! :yourock:

wfgodot
07-28-2011, 03:01 PM
The tabloids giveth, and the tabloids taketh away; blessed be the sales figures of the tabloids:

'It's not our Maddie': McCanns' hopes dashed after sighting in India (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019698/Madeleine-McCann-spotted-north-Indian-market-tourist.html) (Daily Mail)

Donjeta
07-28-2011, 05:01 PM
The tabloids giveth, and the tabloids taketh away; blessed be the sales figures of the tabloids:

'It's not our Maddie': McCanns' hopes dashed after sighting in India (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019698/Madeleine-McCann-spotted-north-Indian-market-tourist.html) (Daily Mail)

In her most recent interview, Mrs McCann said she believes the kidnapper who took Madeleine may also have drugged her other two children.

She said she had to check that twins Sean and Amelie were still breathing because they did not wake as the frantic search for the missing three-year-old began.

She also believes the man who snatched her daughter may have gone to the holiday flat the night before but fled after being disturbed.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019698/Madeleine-McCann-Hopes-dashed-sighting-India.html#ixzz1TR5Uehn6

They disturbed someone in their flat the night before but left the children alone with the door unlocked the next evening? :waitasec:

Were the twins tested for drugs?

wfgodot
07-28-2011, 05:05 PM
If the McCann children were drugged, the top suspects to have done the drugging were the....

Oh wait. Let's not go there.

greycoupon
07-28-2011, 05:12 PM
LOL...I didn't realize it was India when I first posted the "bombshell"

From the link:



Gosh, I hope not another innocent family put into this mess. Remember what happened in Saudi Arabia? *sigh*

I haven't been following the case. What happened in that case?

At least this sounds like it may be completely made up including the child or something is screwy here.

~n/t~
07-28-2011, 07:03 PM
I haven't been following the case. What happened in that case?

At least this sounds like it may be completely made up including the child or something is screwy here.

Sorry, I said Saudi Arabia but it was Morocco...... I can't keep up with all the Madeleine sightings.

Morocco:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1564280/Morocco-photo-is-not-Madeleine-McCann.html


Other sightings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sightings_of_Madeleine_McCann#Morocco

charok
07-28-2011, 07:15 PM
dang. i had a flicker of hope...but that eye of maddies, VERY unique...would ( colored contact) possibly conceal that odd iris/streak of hers??? ie, attempt to disguise her? her poor parents...

WillenFan21
07-28-2011, 07:20 PM
Won't stop NG from reporting on it as a "bombshell" or "breaking news" even if it has been proved completely false by show time :)

It was all over the MSM and once found it is not true they are not covering it now on the NG Show.

oh_gal
07-28-2011, 07:32 PM
WS does have the cold cases files, but Maddie's was pulled a LONG time ago for some exceptional reasons....a mod can explain the reasons, as I am not sure I know exactly.

jmo

What in the world would "exceptional reasons" be?

RSDhoping for a cure
07-28-2011, 08:08 PM
I got so excited when I read the title to the link..ugh...irresponsible reporting at it's best. Sad just sad!

badhorsie
07-29-2011, 02:36 PM
Will there be a thread where we can discuss what Pat Brown has to say? I have never heard of her book and know little about her

cluciano63
07-29-2011, 02:51 PM
Will there be a thread where we can discuss what Pat Brown has to say? I have never heard of her book and know little about her

There is usually a thread for the radio show...a link should be posted sometime over the weekend, not sure which forum it would be under in this case...possibly Haleigh C.'s since that case will be discussed as well.

arielilane
07-29-2011, 10:59 PM
The Tribune India (http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110724/main4.htm) newspaper reported two Americans also believed the little girl was Madeleine, but the French woman denied the claims, saying it was her biological daughter.
DNA tests are still being processed to determine if the little girl is indeed Madeleine, but McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said Kate and Gerry don't believe it's their daughter.
"They have seen photographic evidence and concluded that it was not her," Mitchell said, the U.K. Sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3719812/McCanns-Maddie-hopes-are-dashed.html) reported.
The same sentiments were shared on the Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/Official.Find.Madeleine.Campaign?sk=info#!/Official.Find.Madeleine.Campaign?sk=wall) group, Find Madeleine.
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/29/girl-in-india-not-madeleine-mccanns-say (http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/29/girl-in-india-not-madeleine-mccanns-say)

http://www.facebook.com/Official.Find.Madeleine.Campaign?sk=wall (http://www.facebook.com/Official.Find.Madeleine.Campaign?sk=wall)

OneLove
07-30-2011, 12:35 AM
If the McCann children were drugged, the top suspects to have done the drugging were the....

Oh wait. Let's not go there.

Well, while we ARE going there anyway, lol, don't you wonder if this sighting with DNA testing even raised an eyebrow of either McCann? Just one itsy bitsy little sign of hopefulness? Was there any surveillance as to their demeanor during the "wait"?

Jayelles
07-30-2011, 06:16 PM
One of the problems with the case is that there was strict judicial secrecy surrounding the case in the early days and the tabloids published a lot of very damaging misinformation. Unfortunately, this spawned a hate campaign led by former (ie failed) solictor Tony Bennett who was also a failed politician (he was ejected from no fewer than three political parties). Bennett and his small group of followers continue to spread their bizarre theories on the social networking sites and are proud to claim 710 signatures of support on a petition which has been running for almost a year now (the McCann's petition has almost 70,000 signatures now). I should mention that Bennett's petition has approximately 50 signatories who obviously think they are signing the McCann petition.

I have been involved in creating a wiki rebutting 50 claims about the McCann case which Bennett claims are "facts" which the British media aren't telling us about the McCann case. I can say, hand on bible that I didn't come across a single quote in this leaflet which had been given correctly. He paraphrases forum posts and claims them as quotes by the McCanns. He even invented an entire telephone conversation between Gerry McCann and Clarence Mitchell and uploaded it onto the internet. Case followers will know it's a fabrication - an attempt at "humour" but nowhere does Bennett offer a disclaimer to the effect and casual readers might be duped into thinking it is authentic. He also wrote a sick parody of a Christmas carol about Madeleine and has made lewd suggestions about a photo of her.

Here is the rebuttal
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main-Page

Sadly, Bennett's latest disciple is non other than (self-educated) US profiler Pat Brown. She has written an ebook about the case outlining what she describes as an "imagined scenario". Her ebook is introduced with a disclaimer warning the reader not to misinterpret her opinion as fact. She also emphasises the fact that she has not worked on the case and has not interviewed anyone involved in the case. With the exception of Kate McCann's book and the police files (which she clearly has not read in any depth) her list of references are purely anti-McCann.
If you read her ebook, please also read my rebuttal of it:-

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/41486990/Pat%20Brown

Her theory quite simply is a very far-fetched conspiracy theory which requires the reader to disregard over 20 witness statements.
If you want a quick reference Ramsey case comparison - think E2 and her Santa did it and all those "clues" which she saw in everything Santa and Janet ever did.

The first time I Pat brown came to my attention, was when I read a blog post she had written in October 2007. IN it, she slammed Kate McCann for never having directly appealed to Madeleine's abductor. At the time of this blog post, the McCanns (including Kate on her own) had appealed directly to the abductor on no fewer than three occasions. The first was the day after Madeleine disappeared and was captured by TV cameras to become an iconic clip about the case. The second smilarly so, when Kate McCann made her appeal in English and then in Portuguese "Please don't hurt her..."

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/41720057/Analysis-and-Rebuttal-of-Pat-Brown's-blogs-about-the-McCanns

Brown was selling her ebook on Amaxon for £2.12 a pop. Too late, I put a tracker on her sales and I missed her peak sales period. However, over the past three weeks she was making about £100 per week of it. A few days ago, Amazon pulled it worldwide because the McCanns took legal action against it for defamation. Brown wants to convince the world that Madeleine is dead and that we shouldn't be looking for her. The McCanns are desperate that people believe she is alive and findable because whilst they accept it is possible, there is no proof that she is dead. The anti-McCanns remain convinced that she is dead because of the dog "evidence". This is depsite the dog trainer himself warning that the dogs are just a tool. The "cadaver" dog actually alerts to cadaver odour AND blood from a living person. Neither dog is capable of distinguishing between individual human beings. Only the discovery of a corpse can verify the accuracy of the dogs. IN a recent case of a missing person in the UK (Shannon Matthews), the cadaver dogs alerted in the apartment of a relative. It later transpired that the cadaver odour had come from the furniture which was second hand and whose previous owner had died. Fortunately, Shannon was found alive and it could be determined that this had been a false alert.

Pat brown is desperate to sell her ebook. For several weeks she has been trying desperately but unsuccessfully to get an interview with the media about it. When her book was pulled by Amazon, she was urged to make it a free download. Instead, she has uploaded onto some other ebook sites and she is still charging for it. I have a fundamental issue with people who sell misinformation as she is doing.

For starters, she suggests that Gerry McCann found Madeleine dead when he did the first check at 9.05pm (this was half an hour after they left the children asleep in the apartment). Brown's theory has Gerry not returning to the restaurant, but rather sitting in the apartment for twenty minutes whilst he tried to decide what to do about the Madeleine "situation" (Brown's words). She then suggests he ran through the streets of Paraia da Luz with his daughter's corpse before dumping it on a beach more than half a mile away. She suggests he was seen by an Irish family called Smith at 10pm. We know he ordered his meal before her went to do his check. Brown does not address this uneaten meal or why no-one was worried about his non-return to the table.

Brown believes that Kate McCann was oblivious to her daughter's demise until she did her check at 10pm (no explanation re Kate's concern about her husband's non return/uneaten meal or why she did her own check at 10pm when Gerry had not returned from his!). Brown then has Gerry McCann miraculously back at the apartment (at the same time as she has the Irish family seeing him half a mile away STILL with Madeleine). Now Gerry is telling Kate and their seven friends that poor Madeleine is dead and that he has disposed of her body. Without hesitation, Brown has all of the friends instantly agreeing to cover up Madeleine's death and the police are called immediately. She offers as a motive for this callous conspiracy that they were concerned that they would get into trouble for leaving their children unattended. She does NOT explain why all nine of them immediately told the police that they had done just that.

It's an absurd theory which has the McCanns moving their daughter's decomposing body three times - the last being to take her to either Spain or England. Brown believes it's quite feasible that they put Madeleine's (by now putrifying) body into a rucksack and took it home in the plane to bury it in another happy-to-cover-up-a-child's-death relative in England.
Cause of death? Brown suggests an overdose of Calpol sedative tablets for toddlers. That Calpol is not a sedative was one of the earliest myths to be debunked seems to be of no concern to her. It has been pointed out to her on the forums and she is dismissive of this fundemental blooper saying "Well there is Calpol Night"... Yes, there was Calpol Night and it came on the market in September 2007 - Madeleine went missing in May 2007. To this she reponds - well some other sedative then.... THAT pretty much sums up her concern with doing the research and getting her facts right. If anyone points out her misinformation (and there is plenty of it) she calls us "haters". Well I am a hater of misinformation that's for sure. If you are going to accuse someone of covering up a heinous crime, please base it on facts. Please don't try to make a buck or a thousand from "imagined scenarios" about people who are trying to find a missing child.

What really floored me about Pat Brown though is that several weeks after publishing her ebook accusing Gerry McCann of callously dumping his daughter's body rather than seeking medical help, is that she posted a totally different theory on facebook saying that THIS was her theory. Instead of Gerry working alone whilst his wife dined obliviously nearby, she had Kate raising the alarm that madeleine was missing and then all of the friends returning to the apartment and finding Madeleine's body. Stunning!

The fact is that there are more than a dozen witnesses who are not connected to the McCanns who verify that Gerry McCann was raising the alarm and running about the apartment complex looking for Madeleine in the minutes after 10pm. Apart from the obvious contradiction Brown makes where she has Gerry being spotted by the Irish family at 10pm half a mile away from the apartment and still carrying Madeleine, it would take him some time to reach the beach from the witness point, dispose of a body and then get back to the apartments.

She also asks ther eader to completely disregard the eyewitness sighting of Jane tanner - Why? Because Tanner was a friend - every reason to lie. She misleads the readers when she says that tanner did not tell the McCanns about her sighting in the days following the abduction. This is grossly misleading. Tanner did not DISCUSS her sighting of a man carrying what could be Madeleine McCann away from the apartments. She DID inform police of it immediately and the police told Gerry McCann fairly quickly (I don't have precise times but he knew about it the same night). Tanner says she didn't discuss it because she didn't want to add to their torment re the implications of this. The way that Brown portrays it, it's as though hasn't informed anyone of her sighting.

Basically, her theory does not add up. The McCann group were not all close friends of the couple. Despite the obvious unlikelihood of these people IMMEDIATELY agreeing to cover up a child's death and kicking into action IMMEDIATELY to make it seem as though they were looking for her, they have no motive for risking a potential jail sentence for people who weren't close friends.

Brown allows no time for shock, disbelief, arguments, anger at gerry for dumping her body on the beach... This is not a Ramsey situation where they had all night to form a plan. Brown has them doing it instantly. She says herself that from a profiler's perspective, there is no way the McCanns could have gone to dinner and behaved normally if they knew their daughter was dead. There are several independent witnesses who say the McCanns appeared quite normal that night - laughing and joking with their friends.

I am stunned this evening to learn that Brown is to be interviewed on Websleuths radio. I sincerely hope that Tricia will ask her to address the infeasibility of the "imagined scenario" she wants to sell to the American public.

Edit to add link to blog about her posting contradicting theory:-

http://exposingthemyths.blogspot.com/2011/07/contradictions-and-tangled-webs.html

Tricia
07-30-2011, 11:02 PM
Dear Jayelles,

Thank you for your post.

On Websleuths Radio we try our best to have all types of people. Some you will like, others you won't.

In fact I would give anything to have Lin Wood on even thought I disagree with him on everything and think he is a liar but I still want to talk to him. Fat chance however.

Pat Brown is someone I like and I do found her work interesting and informative. However, that doesn't mean I won't ask the tough questions.

I'm not out to make friends. I am out to get to the truth on all cases. Ms. Brown knows I will ask the tough questions and am I anxious to hear her response to the discrepancies you bring up in this post and on your web page.

It is going to be an interesting show to say the least.

ThoughtFox
07-31-2011, 03:05 AM
Sadly, Bennett's latest disciple is non other than (self-educated) US profiler Pat Brown. She has written an ebook about the case outlining what she describes as an "imagined scenario". Her ebook is introduced with a disclaimer warning the reader not to misinterpret her opinion as fact. She also emphasises the fact that she has not worked on the case and has not interviewed anyone involved in the case. With the exception of Kate McCann's book and the police files (which she clearly has not read in any depth) her list of references are purely anti-McCann.
If you read her ebook, please also read my rebuttal of it:-

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/41486990/Pat%20Brown

Her theory quite simply is a very far-fetched conspiracy theory which requires the reader to disregard over 20 witness statements.

Pat Brown doesn't seem like the "disciple" type to me. She seems to know her stuff and I respect her as a profiler.

The McCann case is still an open book to some of us. Most of the "witnesses" were friends of the McCanns who also left their children alone that night. Some of them were fellow doctors who said they were checking on the children when really they were peeking in the door and couldn't see them at all. Many of the "eyewitness" moments turned out to be misidentifications, such as the "egg-head" man carrying his own child home for the night.

The Abductor and the EggMan (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id30.html)

This is an unsolved case (obviously, or these rumors wouldn't fly) and the little girl is still missing. Pat Brown's theories seem just as valid as anyone else's. JMOO :cow:

Jayelles
07-31-2011, 04:30 AM
Pat Brown is a good speaker and she's good at explaining the theory of profiling. Unfortunately, she has made a judgement on the McCann case which breaches her own principles of profiling and she has not equipped herself well with the facts of the case or with European laws.

I fear that in this case she is allowing her heart to rule her head. The problem is that the person who gets most hurt by this sort of interference is the child who remains missing.

~n/t~
07-31-2011, 07:56 AM
Pat Brown is a good speaker and she's good at explaining the theory of profiling. Unfortunately, she has made a judgement on the McCann case which breaches her own principles of profiling and she has not equipped herself well with the facts of the case or with European laws.

I fear that in this case she is allowing her heart to rule her head. The problem is that the person who gets most hurt by this sort of interference is the child who remains missing.

From what I understand (I haven't read her book yet because it's not available in hard cover or paperback YET but will buy it as soon as it is), Pat Brown offers an opinion in her book and it's only an opinion based on facts presented in the case.

Frankly, I'd rather buy a book with an unbiased opinion about the case rather than read Kate McCann's personal details. I've read enough online about Kate's book to realize it's all about her. Sorry, I'm not interested. I want to know what happened to Madeleine.

twinkiesmom
08-01-2011, 07:37 PM
Sadly, Bennett's latest disciple is non other than (self-educated) US profiler Pat Brown. She has written an ebook about the case outlining what she describes as an "imagined scenario". Her ebook is introduced with a disclaimer warning the reader not to misinterpret her opinion as fact. She also emphasises the fact that she has not worked on the case and has not interviewed anyone involved in the case. With the exception of Kate McCann's book and the police files (which she clearly has not read in any depth) her list of references are purely anti-McCann.
If you read her ebook, please also read my rebuttal of it:-

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/41486990/Pat%20Brown

[/URL]

She offers her theory from the starting point of these being neglectful parents. Leaving three toddlers in a foreign vacation apartment while you wine and dine is egregious behavior. She is starting her profile from that point. It's not that big a leap to an accidental death. The children were completely unattended, and there's little to no evidence of an intruder. She believes the Martin Smith sighting rather than the Jane Tanner sighting. This is a case in which the witnesses should be polygraphed (since the 48 questions are still out there unanswered).

I choose to believe the dog evidence. The hits outside the apartment make me wonder if Madeleine fell out the window and broke her neck.

shefner
08-04-2011, 12:27 AM
I start my theory with three young children being left completely alone in an unlocked apartment while their parents go out to drink and socialize with friends. That pretty much is a mouthful there. This sets the scene of the story....and its not good.

Sabot
08-04-2011, 08:58 AM
The 48 Questions were designed to implicate Kate McCann. They were in no way of any use in finding Madeleine. And some of them were downright insulting.
If you read The 48 Questions you will see that Kate had already answered several of them in a previous unlogged interview, as this is mentioned in the questions.
After Kate was made an Arguido she was advised of her rights by her lawyer in that she did not have to answer them at that time. Obviously The Portuguese Police were aware of this.

~n/t~
08-04-2011, 09:10 AM
The 48 Questions were designed to implicate Kate McCann. They were in no way of any use in finding Madeleine. And some of them were downright insulting.
If you read The 48 Questions you will see that Kate had already answered several of them in a previous unlogged interview, as this is mentioned in the questions.
After Kate was made an Arguido she was advised of her rights by her lawyer in that she did not have to answer them at that time. Obviously The Portuguese Police were aware of this.

Gerry had no problem answering them. Kate did.

Sabot
08-04-2011, 09:29 AM
Gerry had no problem answering them. Kate did.

The PJ thought that Kate was the perpetrator. This will have made a difference in their attitude and approach.

Gerry was also advised not to answer but chose to ignore his Lawyer's advice.
One can hardly blame Kate for taking the advice. This is normal in Portugal.
There is nothing strange about refusing to answer questions that are designed to implicate.

twinkiesmom
08-04-2011, 05:53 PM
The 48 Questions were designed to implicate Kate McCann. They were in no way of any use in finding Madeleine. And some of them were downright insulting.
If you read The 48 Questions you will see that Kate had already answered several of them in a previous unlogged interview, as this is mentioned in the questions.
After Kate was made an Arguido she was advised of her rights by her lawyer in that she did not have to answer them at that time. Obviously The Portuguese Police were aware of this.

I read the questions...To me, it looks like they were trying to get to the truth.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html

Sabot
08-05-2011, 01:14 AM
I read the questions...To me, it looks like they were trying to get to the truth.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html

Only if you believe that Kate McCann is guilty. The Portuguese Attorney General did not agree with The PJ.

shefner
10-28-2011, 11:27 PM
I don't think anyone KNOWS if the McCanns are guilty, except the McCanns, at least for now.

I don't think any person's book will keep most of us from hoping and praying that little Miss Madeleine is alive somewhere and will be found. That is why most of us are here...to find missing people and hopefully alive and well. There is always that possibility that the missing person is not alive and that is sad. But what we can do then is hope for justice and truth.

I have no idea what happened to Madeleine. But I'm open for all theories.

pinkfly
10-29-2011, 10:10 AM
I, too, am open to all theories. I was not involved in the ws threads on her but I can figure why they got pulled. If she is still missing I am glad she is being looked for and will be curious to hear the outcome of this DNA test.

Tsunami
04-21-2012, 11:19 PM
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/315122/315122

~n/t~
04-21-2012, 11:48 PM
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/17/article-2130995-007563A6000004B0-654_468x286.jpg

Search spreads: Spanish police have begun searching for Madeleine McCann in the Costa del Sol after a tip off by an informant to Portuguese police

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2130995/Madeleine-McCann-Police-search-town-near-Malaga-lookalike-spotted.html


Seriously? This is where kidnappers would take a child? Costa del Sol?

Sabot
04-22-2012, 06:44 AM
Madeleine could have been taken anywhere, obviously. And where ever she is there is a possibility that she will be taken out somewhere.
The important thing is that people are still looking. Her parents, Kate and Gerry have accomplished this by their unrelenting campaign to keep her in the public eye. And there is no way they would have done so much to find her if they had been responsible in any way.

~n/t~
04-22-2012, 08:02 AM
Madeleine could have been taken anywhere, obviously. And where ever she is there is a possibility that she will be taken out somewhere.
The important thing is that people are still looking. Her parents, Kate and Gerry have accomplished this by their unrelenting campaign to keep her in the public eye. And there is no way they would have done so much to find her if they had been responsible in any way.

Yes you're right. She can be anywhere if she was abducted as the McCann's claim.

My problem with this sighting is after 5 years, Madeleine wouldn't look like the almost 4 year old little girl we see being circulated in the media photos. She would be almost 9 years old now. Also, I would think the kidnappers would have altered her appearance in some way. Darker hair as an example.

I do have to admit Spain makes a lot more sense than Saudi Arabia.

Donjeta
04-22-2012, 08:10 AM
The eye is a pretty good identifying feature but not so readily visible if you don't get very close.

Is there an age progression image?

Edit:
Never mind. I think this is the latest, maybe. It's from last year
http://img2-2.timeinc.net/people/i/2011/news/110523/madeleine-mccann-240.jpg

~n/t~
04-22-2012, 08:26 AM
I've seen others.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/MadeleineAgeProg3.JPG

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id228.html

This one shows her with darker hair and skin

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4OTx_fYl5SY/0.jpg

~n/t~
04-22-2012, 08:29 AM
This one from forensic artist Stephen Mancusi

http://www.forartist.com/forensic/modification/mccann/2mccann.jpg

http://www.forartist.com/forensic/modification/mccann/mccann.htm

~n/t~
04-22-2012, 08:33 AM
Here's another one

MADELEINE MCCANN AGED EIGHT, AS US EXPERTS SEE HER

http://images.dailyexpress.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/285x214/315879_1.jpg

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/315879/Madeleine-McCann-aged-eight-as-US-experts-see-her

~n/t~
04-22-2012, 08:41 AM
Her twin siblings would be about 7 years old now? I wonder what her sister looks like? Perhaps, she's the closest resemblance to Maddie? Or not. I know some siblings don't look like alike but it wouldn't hurt to show her picture, imo.

Sabot
04-23-2012, 06:55 AM
Her twin siblings would be about 7 years old now? I wonder what her sister looks like? Perhaps, she's the closest resemblance to Maddie? Or not. I know some siblings don't look like alike but it wouldn't hurt to show her picture, imo.

Amelie did look like Madeleine aged two, but I think The McCanns are reluctant to have photos of Amelie in The Media and on The Net, and I think I might be as well, although quite possibly whoever does the age progression pictures will find photos of Amelie useful.

Not possible to imagine what the abductor might have done to change Madeleine but darker hair sounds likely.

FrayedKnot
04-25-2012, 08:03 AM
Madeleine could have been taken anywhere, obviously. And where ever she is there is a possibility that she will be taken out somewhere.
The important thing is that people are still looking. Her parents, Kate and Gerry have accomplished this by their unrelenting campaign to keep her in the public eye. And there is no way they would have done so much to find her if they had been responsible in any way.

Respectfully, the McCann's relentlessness may be viewed as an attempt to deflect scrutiny from what is more likely; that Madeleine died from either an overdose or fall while left alone in the villa and her parents covered it up. I certainly view it that way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Irish_Eyes
04-25-2012, 09:17 AM
A new article....and a new reconstruction (which I think is better than some we've seen)

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/25/world/europe/britain-madeleine-mccann/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120425111337-madeleine-mccann-split-story-top.jpg

~n/t~
04-25-2012, 09:21 AM
New Image:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/3972556-3x2-340x227.jpg

Madeleine McCann could still be alive: UK police

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-25/madeline-mccann-could-still-be-alive-uk-police/3972542

UK police say it's possible that missing girl Madeleine McCann is alive

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/uk-police-possible-missing-girl-madeleine-mccann-alive-092331957.html


Police issue computer-generated photo of missing Madeleine McCann
UK police still hope to find Madeleine alive as ninth birthday nears




http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Police+issue+computer+generated+photo+missing+Made leine+McCann/6515616/story.html

dotr
04-25-2012, 10:03 AM
Just tuned in, wow- that would be amazing if MM is found alive, so encouraging!

nobull
04-25-2012, 11:40 AM
Madeleine could have been taken anywhere, obviously. And where ever she is there is a possibility that she will be taken out somewhere.
The important thing is that people are still looking. Her parents, Kate and Gerry have accomplished this by their unrelenting campaign to keep her in the public eye. And there is no way they would have done so much to find her if they had been responsible in any way.

I hope you're right.

But as we've seen on this website, there really is no rhyme or reason when it comes to violence, especially against children. It's nice to believe "blood is thicker than water." Some of the most heinous perps are the ones you talk to on a daily basis, ones that you'd never once suspect. The ones that would make your blood run cold if you had even an inkling of what they were capable of doing. Smart perps know that their lack of criminal record is in their favor. Quite simply, anyone is capable of anything given the right circumstances.

So, to play devil's advocate, if one were fairly certain nothing was to be found, there would be a strong incentive to throw investigators occasional red herrings.

~n/t~
04-25-2012, 01:24 PM
Just tuned in, wow- that would be amazing if MM is found alive, so encouraging!

Wish there was a lead but the last we heard was she was spotted in Spain and that was 5 or 6 days ago. No updates on that.

Sadly, I wish Maddie was alive but I think she died that night. :(

She would have been a beautiful 9 year old little girl.

~n/t~
04-25-2012, 03:35 PM
Doubts about Madeleine McCann

Pat Brown has doubts about where officials are coming up with the idea that Madeleine McCann might be alive, due to the fact that she is one of the most well known missing children's cases in the world.

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/newschannel/#ixzz1t5B5fmrG

Velouria
04-25-2012, 06:03 PM
Doubts about Madeleine McCann

Pat Brown has doubts about where officials are coming up with the idea that Madeleine McCann might be alive, due to the fact that she is one of the most well known missing children's cases in the world.

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/newschannel/#ixzz1t5B5fmrG

I can think of two sources for that idea, and I bet you can guess who they are.

scandi
04-25-2012, 06:43 PM
Has missing girl Madeleine McCann finally been found? Cops reportedly take DNA from a young girl British and American tourists are saying could be the missing tot allegedly snatched from a resort she and her family were visiting right before her fourth birthday. Tune into Nancy Grace tonight for the latest developments at 8 PM ET on HLN.

Why on earth would american tourists say this could be her? How would they know.
I think this is another NG "bombshell" that means nothing. jmo of course. But, I would have to think that the DNA results are not back yet.

Hi Everyone, Wouldn't it be simply a miracle to have Maddie found after { Correction} 5 years - and ALIVE! I pray this is what is going to happen.

Realistically tho I remember when there was a sighting of her in North Africa and it turned out the spokesman for the McCann's {name ???} had planted the info to generate a possible 'live' sighting of her. Oh, Clarence :moo: Several times he engineered sightings thru other people connected to the McCann, like up in Amsterdam, right?

Ir'll all come back as I lived and breathed her case, was a Mod elsewhere in a European forum. I sure hope she is found alive. Miracles happen every day. :please:


xox

Kamille
04-25-2012, 10:53 PM
There must be another anniversary coming up. Or did GM write a book this time that needs some publicity? How many millions have they made off this?

sigh....poor Madeleine.

MOO

Sabot
04-26-2012, 04:23 AM
Hi Everyone, Wouldn't it be simply a miracle to have Maddie found after { Correction} 5 years - and ALIVE! I pray this is what is going to happen.

Realistically tho I remember when there was a sighting of her in North Africa and it turned out the spokesman for the McCann's {name ???} had planted the info to generate a possible 'live' sighting of her. Oh, Clarence :moo: Several times he engineered sightings thru other people connected to the McCann, like up in Amsterdam, right?

Ir'll all come back as I lived and breathed her case, was a Mod elsewhere in a European forum. I sure hope she is found alive. Miracles happen every day. :please:


xox

This is simply not true. Clarence Mitchell has never instigated a false sighting. There would be absolutely no purpose to this.
Or are you suggesting that Clarence Mitchell, a stranger to The McCanns before the disappearance of Madeleine, has deliberately aided and abetted The McCanns in covering up a crime?

There are a lot of blonde, little girls around, and people simply want to help.
But it is comforting to me that people are still looking for Madeleine.

The appalling lies that are being still being spread about this Case are not helping, yours being one of the least damaging, I must say.

Sabot
04-26-2012, 08:49 AM
Pat Brown needs to reevaluate how often she gets things wrong, probably due to the fact that she spouts off a load of rubbish from the top of her head without looking at the facts. I won't bother to mention any Case in particular. You all know what I am talking about

The last we heard she was wandering around Praia da Luz in Portugal with a trowel and a metal detector, and digging around in Ancient Burial Sites because she seems to think that The McCanns might have nipped a few miles up the road in the very short time they had to dispose of the body of their daughter in a country that they had never visited before.
She is very lucky that she wasn't arrested.

She also effectively proved that Madeleine's bedroom shutters could have been opened from outside, and actually produced a video to show that this was possible, although I am still trying to work out how this helped.

That woman is dangerous because silly people often believe her. She does affect Public Opinion, which could affect possible Jurors. And while I respect your First Amendment, it does carry responsibilities which seem to have escaped Pat Brown.
I don't need a First Amendment to tell me what is acceptable and what isn't.

8truthseeker8
04-26-2012, 09:50 AM
I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way.......but maybe they are "piggy-backing" on the media coverage that Etan Patz's case has gotten as of late..... from a "marketing" view, this is brilliant on "their" part....... while the public is sympathetic and disappointed about the latest revelations in the Etan Patz case, the public may be more apt to be sympathetic to their plight and stop looking at "them" and continue looking for others........ JMHO

Sabot
04-26-2012, 10:15 AM
I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way.......but maybe they are "piggy-backing" on the media coverage that Etan Patz's case has gotten as of late..... from a "marketing" view, this is brilliant on "their" part....... while the public is sympathetic and disappointed about the latest revelations in the Etan Patz case, the public may be more apt to be sympathetic to their plight and stop looking at "them" and continue looking for others........ JMHO

Not sure what you mean, and believe me, I do know how difficult it can be to put thoughts into words.
The McCanns would always be heartened by the finding of a lost child, but I don't think they want to detract from the finding of Madeleine. Or to use the disappearance of another child in the process.

Can you tell me who is Etan Patz? And then I might be better able to understand.

8truthseeker8
04-26-2012, 10:42 AM
Sure, here is a good link about Etan Patz

http://newyorkdailyphoto.com/nydppress/?p=7899

~n/t~
04-26-2012, 10:49 AM
There must be another anniversary coming up. Or did GM write a book this time that needs some publicity? How many millions have they made off this?

sigh....poor Madeleine.

MOO

Madeleine's birthday.

dotr
04-26-2012, 12:47 PM
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2012/04/26/19682221.html
Portuguese authorities say they will not reopen the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, a British girl who went missing while her parents were on vacation in 2007.

"There are no new elements at the moment that would allow for the reopening of the inquiry," Pedro do Carmo, the deputy head of the criminal police department, said Thursday, the news agency AFP reported

dotr
04-26-2012, 12:52 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17852433
"'Young girl now'

Speaking about the computer generated image issued on Wednesday, Mr Mitchell said: "We need to remind people around the world that this is probably what Madeleine looks like today, not the very famous picture of her when she went missing. This is Madeleine as a young girl now."

He also told BBC Breakfast that Mr and Mrs McCann were "coping as best they can".

Det Ch Insp Andy Redwood, who is leading the UK review, told the BBC's Panorama programme his team were "seeking to bring closure to the case".

He said he understood her disappearance was an abduction, mentioning 195 "investigative opportunities" which could advance the case, but police did not reveal what evidence they had to imply that Madeleine was still alive.

Mr Redwood said pan-European procedures were in place for action if a significant lead was discovered"

dotr
04-26-2012, 01:33 PM
Sorry, 3 in row.
UK Police: Missing Girl Madeleine May Be Alive - YouTube

gitana1
04-26-2012, 01:54 PM
Madeleine could have been taken anywhere, obviously. And where ever she is there is a possibility that she will be taken out somewhere.
The important thing is that people are still looking. Her parents, Kate and Gerry have accomplished this by their unrelenting campaign to keep her in the public eye. And there is no way they would have done so much to find her if they had been responsible in any way.

I agree. I have yet to ever hear of a case where guilty parents continue on, year after year, trying to find their kid and publicizing it.

There is no active investigation in Portugal. Yet, they continue to bring this case into the public eye, year after year. If they were guilty, they could just quietly fade out, like many others (OJ of "I will search for the killers for the rest of my life" fame, for example). But, they keep on.

IMO, these parents made a huge mistake leaving their babies alone in a hotel room in a foreign country. But, that's all they are guilty of. :moo:

dotr
04-26-2012, 04:48 PM
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2012/04/26/19683031.html
"The likelihood of finding an abducted child has sharply increased in recent years due to technological advances in the way searches are conducted and a greater awareness that fast action saves lives, said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children"





"The recovery rate for the estimated 115 children abducted by strangers each year, a very small but alarming segment of children reported missing annually, is less heartening. Allen said an average of 57 percent of them come home alive and 40 percent are killed. The rest remain open cases"

citygirl
04-26-2012, 05:27 PM
I agree. I have yet to ever hear of a case where guilty parents continue on, year after year, trying to find their kid and publicizing it.

There is no active investigation in Portugal. Yet, they continue to bring this case into the public eye, year after year. If they were guilty, they could just quietly fade out, like many others (OJ of "I will search for the killers for the rest of my life" fame, for example). But, they keep on.

IMO, these parents made a huge mistake leaving their babies alone in a hotel room in a foreign country. But, that's all they are guilty of. :moo:

I agree. They were in vacation mode. Lovely beach vacation. They let down their guard. If only they had taken a nanny with them! I have tremendous empathy for these parents. IMO, they didn't murder their child. So sad to think they could end up like Etan's parents, still wondering 33 years later.

sherlockh
04-26-2012, 09:21 PM
I hope you're right.

But as we've seen on this website, there really is no rhyme or reason when it comes to violence, especially against children. It's nice to believe "blood is thicker than water." Some of the most heinous perps are the ones you talk to on a daily basis, ones that you'd never once suspect. The ones that would make your blood run cold if you had even an inkling of what they were capable of doing. Smart perps know that their lack of criminal record is in their favor. Quite simply, anyone is capable of anything given the right circumstances.

So, to play devil's advocate, if one were fairly certain nothing was to be found, there would be a strong incentive to throw investigators occasional red herrings.
Maybe it is also a way to keep her memory alive. I never thought they killed her on purpose. I don't really understand this pro-McCann media campaign coming from the UK. The sniffer dogs already told the story what happened there. There wasn't enough evidence to bring the parents to justice but we basically know what happened. The dogs were never wrong before and they weren't wrong this time. Dogs don't lie :)

Sabot
04-27-2012, 03:35 AM
Maybe it is also a way to keep her memory alive. I never thought they killed her on purpose. I don't really understand this pro-McCann media campaign coming from the UK. The sniffer dogs already told the story what happened there. There wasn't enough evidence to bring the parents to justice but we basically know what happened. The dogs were never wrong before and they weren't wrong this time. Dogs don't lie :)

The dogs found no evidence of any harm to Madeleine. The blood in the appartment wasn't Madeleine's, but that of other people.
Also, largely ignored, Eddie the cadaver dog was originally trained to scent Blood, so no one knows what he was alerting to, not even his handler.
Eddie did alert to the car key fob, but that only contained the DNA of Gerry McCann.
The small quantity of fluids found in the car boot were not definable but could have come from any member of The McCann Family as there was a mixture of DNA from more than one person. Everything found was inconclusive, and there was nothing to suggest that Madeleine had ever been in the car.

It is not possible to say that the dogs had never been wrong before because no one knows what they have or haven't found, although Eddie did once alert to a piece of coconut shell, and also once completely missed a buried body on land he was set to search.
Dogs are a Tool. They are not Evidence.

josie1986
04-27-2012, 05:50 AM
My heart skipped a beats when i seen the title of this thread.

It's just my opinion that Kate an Gerry had nothing to do with this and that madeline was abducted,I've never had that guy feeling that they had harmed her or she was no longer with us like I'm other cases although they were definitely in the wrong leaving the kids in the apartment alone while they went for dinner, that's just a decision I will never understand and I'm sure they both will regret it for the rest of their lives.

I still hold out hope that she will be found one day but it's been such a high profile case IMO the person or persons who took her may have paniced.

sherlockh
04-27-2012, 07:09 AM
The dogs found no evidence of any harm to Madeleine. The blood in the appartment wasn't Madeleine's, but that of other people.
Also, largely ignored, Eddie the cadaver dog was originally trained to scent Blood, so no one knows what he was alerting to, not even his handler.
Eddie did alert to the car key fob, but that only contained the DNA of Gerry McCann.
The small quantity of fluids found in the car boot were not definable but could have come from any member of The McCann Family as there was a mixture of DNA from more than one person. Everything found was inconclusive, and there was nothing to suggest that Madeleine had ever been in the car.

It is not possible to say that the dogs had never been wrong before because no one knows what they have or haven't found, although Eddie did once alert to a piece of coconut shell, and also once completely missed a buried body on land he was set to search.
Dogs are a Tool. They are not Evidence.
Eddie was a trained cadaver dog. In over 200 previous outings he never gave a false alert. To say that out of all the cars and apartments they searched he just so happened to alert on 2 locations in the McCanns rental car, in several locations in their apartment, in the garden, on Madeleine's clothes, her toy, 2 of her mother's clothes must be worlds biggest miracle. Amazing that so many police use these dogs if they can be so wrong. Or maybe this is just the simplest explanation why the parents refused to cooperate with the Portuguese police, refused to do a reconstruction of that night, told one lie after the other, refused to take a lie detector test, etc etc... The dogs don't lie. They simply did what they were trained to do. That it isn't enough legal evidence to convict them in a court of law is a whole different matter.

For anyone interested in the details I recommend: http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/forum

Sabot
04-27-2012, 08:19 AM
Eddie was a trained cadaver dog. In over 200 previous outings he never gave a false alert. To say that out of all the cars and apartments they searched he just so happened to alert on 2 locations in the McCanns rental car, in several locations in their apartment, in the garden, on Madeleine's clothes, her toy, 2 of her mother's clothes must be worlds biggest miracle. Amazing that so many police use these dogs if they can be so wrong. Or maybe this is just the simplest explanation why the parents refused to cooperate with the Portuguese police, refused to do a reconstruction of that night, told one lie after the other, refused to take a lie detector test, etc etc... The dogs don't lie. They simply did what they were trained to do. That it isn't enough legal evidence to convict them in a court of law is a whole different matter.

For anyone interested in the details I recommend: http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/forum

The McCanns have never refused to do a Reconstruction. But The Portuguese Police refused to do a Reconstruction in May 2007 at a time when it might have helped. This is on record.

Eddie, The supposed Cadaver Dog was originally trained for Search and Rescue of Live Bodies, and to Scent Blood. He was later retrained on Dead Pig because The UK is not allowed to use actual Cadavers. This is all on Record. Although I have to say that even my dog could find a Cadaver if there was one.

Eddie only alerted to the Blood on the car key fob from a cut on the finger of Gerry McCann. Eddie was never placed in the car. This is also on record.

In so far as Cadaver Dogs are concerned, it might be a good idea to watch the testimony of the dog handler in The Casey Anthony Case. She stated in Court that Cadaver Dogs will alert to other things if no Cadaver Scent is present. And that all Body Fluids degrade into producing a Cadaver Scent after they have left even a live person. This includes Urine and Semen.

But if you all want to watch a real Hate Fest then by all means do click on that Link. That Forum beats anything horrible that I have ever seen on any American Forum.

DIRK SCHILLER
04-27-2012, 09:05 AM
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2012/04/26/19683031.html
"The likelihood of finding an abducted child has sharply increased in recent years due to technological advances in the way searches are conducted and a greater awareness that fast action saves lives, said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children"





"The recovery rate for the estimated 115 children abducted by strangers each year, a very small but alarming segment of children reported missing annually, is less heartening. Allen said an average of 57 percent of them come home alive and 40 percent are killed. The rest remain open cases"

my son´s case did not remain open, unfortunately,my son was abducted at age 3 , in 1979,It is a cold case for the authorities. I´ve been searching for over 33 years now,like Etan´s parent,it really hurts!!! Heidi Stein

dotr
04-27-2012, 09:37 AM
my son´s case did not remain open, unfortunately,my son was abducted at age 3 , in 1979,It is a cold case for the authorities. I´ve been searching for over 33 years now,like Etan´s parent,it really hurts!!! Heidi Stein

I truly hope you find your son and that maybe one day the case will be re-opened. is there a WS thread or news story that could be posted?

DIRK SCHILLER
04-27-2012, 10:39 AM
thank you but I´m sure it won´t happen, I´m searching international help for the re-opening of the case

Germany GERMANY - Dirk Schiller, 3 years old, Harz GERMANY, 10 March 1979 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

dotr
04-28-2012, 12:10 PM
I would like to think that any advances in MM's case, will also serve to help many other kids who disappeared.If UK. LE are willing to forge ahead in M case and feel there are still unexplored avenues in the case (it is not often that one hears that), then I say why not just go ahead, shake this thing up, bring MM home, one way or another - whatever is discovered may help someone else.

Sabot
04-29-2012, 06:12 AM
I would like to think that any advances in MM's case, will also serve to help many other kids who disappeared.If UK. LE are willing to forge ahead in M case and feel there are still unexplored avenues in the case (it is not often that one hears that), then I say why not just go ahead, shake this thing up, bring MM home, one way or another - whatever is discovered may help someone else.

Exactly. Scotland Yard should just get on with it. Portugal has had it's chances, and apparently still don't want to know.

"There is no proof that Madeleine is dead". is a jolly sight more important than, "There is no proof that she is alive." And there are significant Leads still to follow.

~n/t~
04-29-2012, 07:45 AM
In a statement emailed to the BBC on Thursday, the attorney-general's office said: "The reopening of the so-called 'Maddie case' has not been ordered, so far.

"As it has always said, the public prosecutors office will only reopen the case if there are new, credible and relevant facts and not mere hypotheses or speculations."

Pedro do Carmo, deputy head of the criminal police department, told news agency AFP: "There are no new elements at the moment that would allow for the reopening of the inquiry."

Mr Do Carmo said that a team of investigators would "re-examine elements of the inquiry" in collaboration with the British police, but stressed that this was normal practice and did not constitute a reopening.

Portuguese police have received "no formal request for the reopening of the inquiry," he added.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17852433

~n/t~
04-29-2012, 07:48 AM
Has there been an update to the sighting in Spain? I can't find anything. It's been 2 weeks.

dotr
04-29-2012, 11:47 AM
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2012/04/29/facebook-approve-page-mocking-madeleine-mccann-s-disappearance-86908-23841759/
"Facebook approve page mocking Madeleine McCann's disappearance

Apr 29 2012 Exclusive by Marion Scott

A SHOCKING Facebook page joking about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been dismissed as “humour about a public figure” by the social network giants.

An internet troll created the disgusting site titled “If this gets one millions likes, I will let Maddie out of my basement.”

~n/t~
04-29-2012, 02:17 PM
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2012/04/29/facebook-approve-page-mocking-madeleine-mccann-s-disappearance-86908-23841759/
"Facebook approve page mocking Madeleine McCann's disappearance

Apr 29 2012 Exclusive by Marion Scott

A SHOCKING Facebook page joking about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been dismissed as “humour about a public figure” by the social network giants.

An internet troll created the disgusting site titled “If this gets one millions likes, I will let Maddie out of my basement.”

That's disgusting. I'm really surprised fb is allowing this. Whoever started it should get arrested, imo. He/she is basically admitting to kidnapping and holding Maddie hostage. Joke or not, isn't that punishable by law?

dotr
04-29-2012, 05:56 PM
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues
"The Sunday Express can reveal that a British woman staying at the Ocean Club saw a “suspicious” couple loitering around the complex. On May 2, the day before Madeleine vanished, the woman saw the couple sitting on a hill overlooking tennis courts used by Kate and Gerry.

Just by the courts is a grassy area where the couple, Madeleine and twins Sean and Amelie, played regularly in the afternoons.

The woman, whose toddler daughter became friendly with Madeleine at the children’s club, said the suspicious woman was talking and pointing while the man with her looked “nervous”.

The following day at 1.30pm she saw the same couple standing near her apartment at the holiday complex and later told the McCanns’ private investigators that she thought their behaviour was “suspicious”.

It is not believed that the couple have been traced or identified.

Three years ago the Sunday Express revealed an elderly British woman living in Praia da Luz saw a Portuguese-looking woman hanging around outside the McCanns’ apartment about an hour before the abduction. Astonishingly, the woman has never given a statement to police"

dotr
04-29-2012, 06:01 PM
5 Years On.....It's Waiting For Me......Madeleine McCann - YouTube

dotr
04-30-2012, 09:55 AM
New.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4285908/Inside-the-twisted-minds-of-the-Madeleine-McCann-child-snatchers.html

“I do NOT believe Madeleine was targeted by a paedophile ring. There are many places where snatching a child for this purpose is simpler.

“And she was nearly four — younger than the usual target age for a paedophile.

“Madeleine was taken by someone who wanted her as part of their family. I believe they saw her earlier in the week and developed their plan to abduct her.”

Ian went on: “The main questions are, where is Madeleine now? And why has she not been discovered?”

He argued: “Many have said that, with all the publicity, she would have been seen. This is incorrect. There are many instances where this has not happened.

“Her hair could be dyed, she could be tanned, speaking a different language. She could even be dressed as a boy".

isilverbell
04-30-2012, 12:23 PM
This case is so sad and must be so heartbreaking for the family.

Personally, I don't think the parents were involved. After realizing their daughter was dead (shocking enough in itself) they would have had to come up with a foolproof plan to conceal their own child's body in a town in which they were vacationing and probably not completely familiar with. They would have to know exactly where to find a good hiding spot which would never be discovered and all the while put up a front to their friends and the police....too many factors would have to be involved to make it work (especially when it wouldn't have been premeditated). Anyway, this to me is pretty indicative that an intruder was involved.

My question is this: If a childless couple was looking for a child to bring up in their home, why wouldn't they have taken the younger sister, Amelie? Wouldn't most people prefer a younger child who would have fewer memories of her family? Perhaps because a baby would be more difficult to control (in terms of crying etc) although drugging would make it more compliant, obviously. Just wondering if there were any thoughts on this....

dotr
04-30-2012, 01:07 PM
This case is so sad and must be so heartbreaking for the family.

Personally, I don't think the parents were involved. After realizing their daughter was dead (shocking enough in itself) they would have had to come up with a foolproof plan to conceal their own child's body in a town in which they were vacationing and probably not completely familiar with. They would have to know exactly where to find a good hiding spot which would never be discovered and all the while put up a front to their friends and the police....too many factors would have to be involved to make it work (especially when it wouldn't have been premeditated). Anyway, this to me is pretty indicative that an intruder was involved.

My question is this: If a childless couple was looking for a child to bring up in their home, why wouldn't they have taken the younger sister, Amelie? Wouldn't most people prefer a younger child who would have fewer memories of her family? Perhaps because a baby would be more difficult to control (in terms of crying etc) although drugging would make it more compliant, obviously. Just wondering if there were any thoughts on this....

Welcome to WS isilverbell!
The older child might be taken instead of a younger one possibly because M was capable of opening the door or window and was either enticed outside, or had wandered out and snatched.
Maybe M was to be a playmate for a lonely child, or to replace a deceased one of the same age.
Oddly,I cannot help thinking that the perp did not want to separate twins...and that they thought perhaps the family did not deserve to have such a rich bounty of lovely children.

Sabot
04-30-2012, 04:34 PM
This case is so sad and must be so heartbreaking for the family.

Personally, I don't think the parents were involved. After realizing their daughter was dead (shocking enough in itself) they would have had to come up with a foolproof plan to conceal their own child's body in a town in which they were vacationing and probably not completely familiar with. They would have to know exactly where to find a good hiding spot which would never be discovered and all the while put up a front to their friends and the police....too many factors would have to be involved to make it work (especially when it wouldn't have been premeditated). Anyway, this to me is pretty indicative that an intruder was involved.

My question is this: If a childless couple was looking for a child to bring up in their home, why wouldn't they have taken the younger sister, Amelie? Wouldn't most people prefer a younger child who would have fewer memories of her family? Perhaps because a baby would be more difficult to control (in terms of crying etc) although drugging would make it more compliant, obviously. Just wondering if there were any thoughts on this....

Separating twins would not have been a good idea emotionally, I think. And travelling and hiding a baby in nappies would have been more difficult than hiding a four year old

dotr
05-02-2012, 08:28 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9240979/Madeleine-McCann-no-doubt-investigation-will-be-reopened-claim-parents.html
"If people want to find Madeleine, and want to find the person who took her, then we need the case to be reopened.

“We know there’s a real possibility that Madeleine can still be found alive.”

The officer leading Scotland Yard's review of the original investigation into Madeleine's disappearance spoke last week of his belief that the case can still be solved and said there is evidence she could still be alive.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said the Metropolitan Police would like the case to be reopened, but stressed that the decision was one for Portugal.

Referring to the Portuguese authorities' apparent reluctance to resume their investigation, Mr McCann said today: "The only way everyone will be able to move on is for the case to be solved, and that is for Madeleine to be found and the perpetrators brought to justice.

"Then everyone can move on. Until then it's not going to go away. It can't go away."

~n/t~
05-02-2012, 08:38 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9240979/Madeleine-McCann-no-doubt-investigation-will-be-reopened-claim-parents.html
"If people want to find Madeleine, and want to find the person who took her, then we need the case to be reopened.

“We know there’s a real possibility that Madeleine can still be found alive.”

The officer leading Scotland Yard's review of the original investigation into Madeleine's disappearance spoke last week of his belief that the case can still be solved and said there is evidence she could still be alive.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said the Metropolitan Police would like the case to be reopened, but stressed that the decision was one for Portugal.

Referring to the Portuguese authorities' apparent reluctance to resume their investigation, Mr McCann said today: "The only way everyone will be able to move on is for the case to be solved, and that is for Madeleine to be found and the perpetrators brought to justice.

"Then everyone can move on. Until then it's not going to go away. It can't go away."


In fairness, the Portuguese aren't reluctant as far as I know (link posted above). They would require new and credible evidence to reopen the case. Furthermore, apparently, a formal request wasn't even requested yet.

Who to believe? :read:

dotr
05-02-2012, 08:49 AM
This is an older interview with the M's, being asked some tough questions .. ...I tend to believe the answers.
Sandra Felgueiras interviews McCanns - YouTube

dotr
05-02-2012, 12:35 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17924623
Possible sighting

Meanwhile, a Portuguese taxi driver has spoken to an English newspaper about claims his possible sighting of the girl was never properly investigated.

Antonio Castela, 72, said he picked up three men, a woman and a child fitting Madeleine's description on 4 May 2007 in Monte Gordo in the Algarve, about an hour's drive from Praia da Luz.

He drove them to a hotel two miles away, where they then drove away in a blue jeep.

Mr Castela told the Evening Standard he went to the Policia Judiciaria but he said "they did not seem to take me seriously and never questioned me

dotr
05-02-2012, 04:18 PM
http://www.originscanada.org/infant.pdf
Infant Adoption is
Big Business in America
by Darlene Gerow, CUB Communicator Editor




"Watson recounts how some
agencies circulate a fee schedule with children
listed in categories by race and sex with prices
proportionate to their desirability. Prices can
range from $25,000 to $50,000 and upwards.
According to Watson, although adoption providers
insist that the fee is not payment for a
child, but rather money to cover the cost of
services provided, “Adoptive parents are not
deceived. They know they are paying for a
child.” Adopters with the most money obtain
the children considered the most desirable."




" While the supply of desirable adoptable infants
has been decreasing, infertility in
America has been increasing. It is estimated
that one in six couples has trouble conceiving
and that there may be as many as 5.3 million
infertile couples in America."

txsvicki
05-02-2012, 04:47 PM
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues
"The Sunday Express can reveal that a British woman staying at the Ocean Club saw a “suspicious” couple loitering around the complex. On May 2, the day before Madeleine vanished, the woman saw the couple sitting on a hill overlooking tennis courts used by Kate and Gerry.

Just by the courts is a grassy area where the couple, Madeleine and twins Sean and Amelie, played regularly in the afternoons.

The woman, whose toddler daughter became friendly with Madeleine at the children’s club, said the suspicious woman was talking and pointing while the man with her looked “nervous”.

The following day at 1.30pm she saw the same couple standing near her apartment at the holiday complex and later told the McCanns’ private investigators that she thought their behaviour was “suspicious”.

It is not believed that the couple have been traced or identified.

Three years ago the Sunday Express revealed an elderly British woman living in Praia da Luz saw a Portuguese-looking woman hanging around outside the McCanns’ apartment about an hour before the abduction. Astonishingly, the woman has never given a statement to police"


You'd think the private investigators could track down pics of everyone who worked at, and stayed at the place during that timespan and let the woman look at them. A woman talking and the man looking uncomfortable is probably very common, but if the same couple was seen again and they didn't belong, then it could be suspicious. Someone would have had to be around and stalk at night or know enough about tourists to know that some of them left their kids unattended in the room. IMO, there might not be much hope though because I'm another who trusts dogs. There's been too many cases of dogs tracking dead and alive people for miles and miles. There shouldn't have been body fluid scents down in the tire well.

Sabot
05-03-2012, 06:17 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17924623
Possible sighting

Meanwhile, a Portuguese taxi driver has spoken to an English newspaper about claims his possible sighting of the girl was never properly investigated.

Antonio Castela, 72, said he picked up three men, a woman and a child fitting Madeleine's description on 4 May 2007 in Monte Gordo in the Algarve, about an hour's drive from Praia da Luz.

He drove them to a hotel two miles away, where they then drove away in a blue jeep.

Mr Castela told the Evening Standard he went to the Policia Judiciaria but he said "they did not seem to take me seriously and never questioned me

More worrying is the fact that when this story was first leaked by The Portuguese Media the date of the sighting was stated as the 3rd of May, the day on which Madeleine was abducted, and due to the timeline this would not have been possible, so it was apparently discarded.
It now appears that it was actually on the 4th of May which changes everything and suddenly becomes a distinct possibility.
Only The Portuguese Police had this information, so who changed the date? And who leaked the story? And perhaps more to the point, why would they want to do this?

Sabot
05-03-2012, 06:23 AM
You'd think the private investigators could track down pics of everyone who worked at, and stayed at the place during that timespan and let the woman look at them. A woman talking and the man looking uncomfortable is probably very common, but if the same couple was seen again and they didn't belong, then it could be suspicious. Someone would have had to be around and stalk at night or know enough about tourists to know that some of them left their kids unattended in the room. IMO, there might not be much hope though because I'm another who trusts dogs. There's been too many cases of dogs tracking dead and alive people for miles and miles. There shouldn't have been body fluid scents down in the tire well.

Private Investigators are not allowed to operate in Portugal.

This particular model of car has no tyre well, although it was reported by The Media as having such. And the body fluids that were supposedly scented were so small as to be undefinable, and could have been anything.

~n/t~
05-03-2012, 12:37 PM
Madeleine McCann: police to re-examine evidence of psychics


Police are preparing to re-examine phone calls made to Crimestoppers in the wake of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, from members of the public who claimed they had dreamt about her or had psychic knowledge of the case.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9243290/Madeleine-McCann-police-to-re-examine-evidence-of-psychics.html


Oh dear.

dotr
05-03-2012, 12:42 PM
Madeleine McCann: police to re-examine evidence of psychics




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9243290/Madeleine-McCann-police-to-re-examine-evidence-of-psychics.html


Oh dear.

From same (interesting) link...
Antonio Castela, 72, said he is sure the little girl wearing pink pyjamas he gave a lift to along with four adults on May 4, 2007, was Madeleine but that was not taken seriously when he reported the incident to Portuguese police.

British expat Rose Johnson, 70, also reported seeing the little girl playing on a beach in Nerja, Spain, last summer".

Donjeta
05-03-2012, 02:22 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138286/Madeleine-McCann-latest-news-Antonio-Castela-claims-picked-girl-taxi.html?ICO=most_read_module

Daily Mail article with mostly the same information.

Yesterday the couple said the £2million Scotland Yard review of the case, ordered by Prime Minister David Cameron a year ago, meant they faced the five-year milestone with renewed hope of finding their daughter, who vanished days before her fourth birthday.

Mr McCann said: ‘I’m more confident now than at any point in the past four and a half years that we will find Madeleine, and find who is responsible.’

His wife, a former GP, said she was ‘more positive and hopeful’ than she had been, but admitted she still did not allow herself to think about holding her oldest daughter, whose ninth birthday would be next weekend.

Asked if she imagined a reunion, she said: ‘I don’t that often. It’s almost like it’s so good and so beautiful that I don’t want to take myself there and for it not be real.

‘I have had a few dreams along the way, not recently, and they have been so tangible that it’s incredibly painful because that’s what we want every single day. It would be amazing.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138286/Madeleine-McCann-latest-news-Antonio-Castela-claims-picked-girl-taxi.html#ixzz1tpf4AJBG

badhorsie
05-03-2012, 06:28 PM
Poor family. I pray that there is a resolution in this case, for Madeleine to be found

dotr
05-04-2012, 01:14 PM
"Heriberto Janosch González, psicólogo"
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.ca/

Good pics and possibilities..

SarahR
05-04-2012, 04:21 PM
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4296421/30-kids-lost-in-Portugal-since-Maddie-went-missing.html

How would one go about finding the statistics this newspaper stated

dotr
05-04-2012, 11:18 PM
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4296421/30-kids-lost-in-Portugal-since-Maddie-went-missing.html

How would one go about finding the statistics this newspaper stated

I am not sure where the info (statistics) comes from, but this gives some detail.

In the first reported attempted abduction, in December last year, a man bundled a nine-year-old girl into his car as she walked home from her school bus stop in the village of Charneca, near Coimbra.
The terrified girl told police he held on to her and drove her about a mile away, but she managed to escape when he was forced to brake to let another car pass on the remote, narrow road.
She ran crying back to the village and told police her abductor spoke Portuguese with a Brazilian accent, wore an earring and drove a grey car.
Since then there have been two more attempted abductions in nearby villages, including an attack three weeks ago when two men in a car tried to grab a 13-year-old girl after she also got off her school bus to go home.
Her mother, who was waiting for the girl, saw the men and screamed, and they released the teenager and fled.
Then on Thursday nine-year-old Clarisse Neto was targeted as she walked to a music class at her school in Vila Nova de Poiares, about five miles from Coimbra.
Two men in a light-coloured car approached her and signalled for her to get into the car, shouting: "Come here, come here."
Clarisse screamed and ran to a nearby health centre, where workers called the police.
Police said the girl was "traumatised, very panicked and very confused" by her ordeal, and could only describe the two men as both wearing woollen hats.
Her father Augusto Neto told the Portuguese newspaper Correio da Manha: "If they took my daughter I would never see her again. The country is small, the borders are very close.
"She will not be going to school alone any more. I will not let anyone else try to steal my daughter. I love my family and I will not let anyone harm them."
A police source said there had been several reports of attempted abductions in that area, including another attempt on Saturday, in the village of Vale do Tronco, but refused to reveal details of the latest attack"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-515348/Madeleine-McCanns-disappearance-linked-string-child-abductions.html#ixzz1txf3O8yw"

Sabot
05-05-2012, 05:11 AM
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4296421/30-kids-lost-in-Portugal-since-Maddie-went-missing.html

How would one go about finding the statistics this newspaper stated

It is difficult. You would need to trawl back over several years of Portuguese Language Newspapers, but a lot of these incidents have been kept very quiet.
I personally know of at least four cases of children who have never been found where The Portuguese Investigations were a disgrace.

Madeleine McCann.

Renee Hasse.

Rui Pedro.

Joana Cipriano.

In the latter Case the child's Mother and Uncle, Leonor Cipriano and Joao Cipriano, were convicted of her murder on NonEvidence that beggars belief, and after a confession was beaten out of both of them. Goncalo Amaral, The Lead Detective is serving a Suspended Sentence for Perjury, and another Detective is serving a two year and three months Suspended Sentence for Falsifying Evidence. The actual perpetrators of the Torture were never identified because Leonor Cipriano had a bag over her head when they were beating her. But it was proven in Court that she had been beaten while in Police Custody.
They are both still in Prison, but don't ask me why. The Case has now gone to The UN.

This information is all on Google.

dotr
05-05-2012, 11:21 AM
http://ecpat.net/EI/Publications/Trafficking/Factsheet_Portugal.pdf
"Depending on the reason for trafficking, some countries might be only sending, while others might be both sending and transit.
Portugal is a country of origin, transit and destination for the trafficking of children. Children from Portugal have reportedly
been trafficked to Spain for sexual purposes.4 Primarily, children trafficked to Portugal come from Brazil and, to a lesser extent,
from Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, Romania and Africa (Angola, Mozambique and Nigeria) for the purpose of commercial sexual
exploitation and forced labour.5 Some of the victims are then trafficked on to other European countries.
The routes used to enter Portugal are varied and mostly depend on the victim’s country of origin. For countries in Latin
America, particularly Brazil, the majority of victims enter Portugal via another European country, mainly through the airports in
Madrid and Paris and to a lesser extent via German or Italian cities.6 Victims from other European countries enter by land and
because of Portugal’s proximity to North Africa, it is most often used as a transit route for Nigerians travelling to other parts of
Europe.7 Angolans are also reported to be trafficked into Portugal.8 Child trafficking has been specifically detected in coastal
areas where unaccompanied children or street children are targeted for recruitment for the purposes of sexual exploitation,
prostitution and pornography."



"Portugal is considered a major European destination for sex tourists. According to a research by the European Coordination
Office, 86% of Portuguese nationals interviewed believed that child sex tourism occurs in Portugal.12 Child pornography is also
a big concern in the country. In 2005, as a result of an operation against internet child pornography in Portugal, 47 Portuguese
men were arrested on charges of possessing child pornography films and 58 computers were seized.13"

dotr
05-07-2012, 12:09 PM
"Elizabeth Smart, who was kidnapped and held captive for nine months when she was just 14, has revealed she thinks there is a 'great chance' that missing British girl Madeleine McCann is still alive.

Speaking with Anderson Cooper, Ms Smart said she believes Maddy, who was just three when she was kidnapped during a family holiday to Portugal in 2007, might be being raised by another family.
'With her being as young as what she was, I think there is a great chance of her still being alive and being out there whether she's been sold or whether someone's trying to take her or raise her as their own,' Ms Smart said in the interview that will air on Tuesday night."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2140793/Kidnap-victim-Elizabeth-Smart-says-believes-missing-British-girl-Madeleine-McCann-alive.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

dotr
05-08-2012, 01:38 PM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-groggy-looking-girl-identical-823747
"Maddy 'sighting': 'Groggy-looking' girl identical to Madeleine McCann seen at campsite with German couple"

"Detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are following up on a potential sighting just days after the youngster went missing.

A holidaymaker has told how she saw a girl, fitting Maddy's description, at a campsite on the Costa del Sol, just three days after she vanished in Praia da Luz, Portugal.

Karen Sisson told The Sun that the blonde girl, wearing a pink T-shirt, shorts and a beige hat, appeared "out of it" and out of place with the German couple she was staying with.

The following day the little girl was still wearing the same clothes as the day before.

British police have been told that the German couple even paid extra for bringing one more child more than expected when they arrived at the Cabopino campsite, near Fuengirola, on May 6."

Wanting2Help
05-08-2012, 02:09 PM
Not sure if this is the right place to post... please move if necessary

http://now.msn.com/now/0508-madeleine-mccann-vacation-ad.aspx

Sabot
05-09-2012, 04:15 AM
Not sure if this is the right place to post... please move if necessary

http://now.msn.com/now/0508-madeleine-mccann-vacation-ad.aspx

There is something very fishy about this. It appears to have been done by one of the morons who so enjoy heaping mindless abuse on The McCanns. It is now in the hands of The Police who will have absolutely no trouble finding out who did it, because the moron has left a trail of bread crumbs a mile wide.

dotr
05-09-2012, 04:56 PM
A Swiss father-of-three is being interviewed by police today after it emerged he was the mystery man seen driving from the camping ground with a girl who looked like Maddie McCann days after she vanished in 2007.
Karsten Mayer, 41, is a German-speaking Swiss native who lives near the capital Bern whose own daughter was in the family car and who, he says, was mistaken for the missing toddler by a British eyewitness.
The potential sighting came three days after Madeleine was abducted from Praia da Luz in Portugal, a few hours drive away.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2141774/Madeleine-McCann-sighting-Swiss-father-says-mystery-man-seen-driving-blonde-girl.html#ixzz1uPMYzz9C

Sabot
05-10-2012, 03:55 AM
A Swiss father-of-three is being interviewed by police today after it emerged he was the mystery man seen driving from the camping ground with a girl who looked like Maddie McCann days after she vanished in 2007.
Karsten Mayer, 41, is a German-speaking Swiss native who lives near the capital Bern whose own daughter was in the family car and who, he says, was mistaken for the missing toddler by a British eyewitness.
The potential sighting came three days after Madeleine was abducted from Praia da Luz in Portugal, a few hours drive away.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2141774/Madeleine-McCann-sighting-Swiss-father-says-mystery-man-seen-driving-blonde-girl.html#ixzz1uPMYzz9C

This would appear to have been a mistaken sighting, which is bound to happen in Missing Children Cases. Karen Sissons reported it to The Police in a correct manner.
The really worrying thing is that The Portuguese Police made no attempt whatsoever to Investigate this report. The father of the child in question has only now become aware of this, despite the fact that it has taken less than a week to locate him.

dotr
05-10-2012, 11:03 AM
I think it is a good sign that these sightings are being taken seriously. One down, plenty more to go- it just takes one correct sighting to find the needle in the haystack!

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1174800--new-madeleine-mccann-sightings-probed-by-u-k-police-reports?bn=1


"Another British expat, Rose Johnson, 70, told the Olive Press she saw a girl who looked like Maddy playing on a beach in Nerja, Spain last summer with a family.

“The whole family was dark skinned, whereas she had fair hair and pale skin,” Johnson said. “She didn’t sit with the people she was with at all.”

Yvonne Tunnicliffe, described as “another Olive Press reader,” told the newspaper she was “100 per cent sure” she saw Maddy while on a shopping trip in Alhaurin two years ago."

dotr
05-12-2012, 02:40 PM
MISSING : For Madeleine McCann's 9th Birthday(12 May 2012) - YouTube

dotr
07-06-2012, 06:33 PM
New!!
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2012/07/06/19959711.html

South African property developer says he's found the body of Madeleine McCann, a British report says.

Stephen Birch says he has spent thousands of his own money to search for the girl who went missing five years ago while on a family vacation in Portugal, Sky News reports.

He said in a search using ground radar scans, he discovered an area near the resort where Madeleine was staying with her family where it shows "digging, a void and what could be human bones."
ttp://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2012/07/06/19959711.html
"

dotr
07-06-2012, 06:46 PM
Also new.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/06/new-report-finds-madeleine-mccann-could-be-alive-and-living-as-someone-else-s-daughter.html
Then, this week, retired Metropolitan homicide detective Ian Horrocks published his own comprehensive report based on an independent investigation that concludes the most likely scenario was that Madeleine was abducted by a family who may be raising her as their own daughter"

Moonviolet
07-06-2012, 07:16 PM
I just don't understand how he found this possible gravesite? Does he just search different areas for the location of bones or did he have a lead? Have we ever heard of this man before? He admits he is obsessed but does he have a vested interest in this case? Was he around when it happened?
Just seems odd to me that he is announcing it as HER gravesite. I suppose it could be any person or animal's gravesite.

RoseTree
07-06-2012, 10:34 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/06/madeleine-mccanns-grave-found_n_1653768.html?utm_hp_ref=crime

"Birch ... claims to have ground radar scans showing a burial site on ex-suspect Robert Murat's property, which is just a long block away from the McCann's vacation home in Praia da Luz.

rpgman
07-07-2012, 06:29 AM
What a bunch of quacks.
That property was already searched.

Anyway why would Murat bury her on his property.

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2

ThoughtFox
07-07-2012, 06:42 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/06/madeleine-mccanns-grave-found_n_1653768.html?utm_hp_ref=crime

"Birch ... claims to have ground radar scans showing a burial site on ex-suspect Robert Murat's property, which is just a long block away from the McCann's vacation home in Praia da Luz.

I was excited until reading that. :rolleyes:

Sabot
07-07-2012, 06:44 AM
None of his story makes sense. He says that he trespassed on The Murat's Property on four occasions at dawn, but seems to have been totally unaware of two rather large Guard Dogs who are loose on the property at night.
He also says that Robert Murat wasn't involved despite being at home with his mother while the digging and burial was going on, and that he still doesn't know the body is there. This is supposed to have happened on the night that Madeleine disappeared.
But he doesn't say who laid the concrete path over the grave at a later date.
The Murat property was extensively search by The PJ in May and again in August 2007 and nothing was found, although how the World's most famous Cadaver Woofer missed a body buried only two feet deep is a bit of a mystery.
In my opinion this is either dirty tricks by those who desperately want Madeleine to be dead. or it is a publicity stunt.

Sabot
07-07-2012, 01:01 PM
This is getting more and more bizarre as Stephen Birch contradicts himself in successive interviews, and The <Mod Snip>demand that Kate McCann gets over there and digs up the garden with her bare hands, well, very nearly.
Goncalo Amaral says it isn't true, but then he would because he loves The Freezer Theory and dead bodies defrosting in car boots while The McCanns run around Portugal and Spain hiding the body in different places, if not in a Industrial Acid Plant in Huelva.
While<Mod Snip>Brown thinks it a crock of shite because she prefers to think the body was transported in a suitcase back to England on Easy Jet.

The consensus of sensible opinion is that Stephen Birch has found The Swimming Pool Drain or The Septic Tank.

brit1981
07-08-2012, 04:50 AM
This is getting more and more bizarre as Stephen Birch contradicts himself in successive interviews, and The <Mod Snip>demand that Kate McCann gets over there and digs up the garden with her bare hands, well, very nearly.
Goncalo Amaral says it isn't true, but then he would because he loves The Freezer Theory and dead bodies defrosting in car boots while The McCanns run around Portugal and Spain hiding the body in different places, if not in a Industrial Acid Plant in Huelva.
While <Mod Snip>Pattie Brown thinks it a crock of shite because she prefers to think the body was transported in a suitcase back to England on Easy Jet.

The consensus of sensible opinion is that Stephen Birch has found The Swimming Pool Drain or The Septic Tank.

Not one of the <Mod Snip> has actually come up with a theory to explain how the mccanns got rid of Madeleine's body. They have to involve tens of people as accomplices to explain away alibis, or sightings of madeleine alive and well before she disappeared. Some people even claim there was a Maddy double used and that photos of her with her family on the day she disappeared were faked!

easyjet may be budget, but I am fairly certain they might notice a several months old body on their aircraft, and where were they supposed to have kept it in the mean time.

can I just as a question about Pat Brown. In the UK to be a criminal profiler you have to be either a psychiatrist, psychologist, or perhaps a criminologist, in each case you would need years of experience (professor level) etc. But I have read in america anyone can call themselves a profiler, and brown just has a MA in criminal justice, and has read some books on the subject. I have not heard of any case where she has worked with the police to catch someone. She apparently wrote a book about chasing seriel killers, but I have not heard of one seriel killer she actually caught. Is this correct?

brit1981
07-08-2012, 04:53 AM
None of his story makes sense. He says that he trespassed on The Murat's Property on four occasions at dawn, but seems to have been totally unaware of two rather large Guard Dogs who are loose on the property at night.
He also says that Robert Murat wasn't involved despite being at home with his mother while the digging and burial was going on, and that he still doesn't know the body is there. This is supposed to have happened on the night that Madeleine disappeared.
But he doesn't say who laid the concrete path over the grave at a later date.
The Murat property was extensively search by The PJ in May and again in August 2007 and nothing was found, although how the World's most famous Cadaver Woofer missed a body buried only two feet deep is a bit of a mystery.
In my opinion this is either dirty tricks by those who desperately want Madeleine to be dead. or it is a publicity stunt.

I thin he is just a crank. People who go trying to dig up bodies without calling th epolice tend to be IMO. BUt how doe she now who was involved. He is claiming Murat was nto involved (and I am not saying Murat was involved, there has never been a shred of evidence for even making him an aguido), but for this guy to be able to say who was and was not involved he would have to be a witness to what happened, would he not?

dotr
07-08-2012, 01:43 PM
So-called "desirable " children, can be very difficult to find and possibly pay for. So here we have a beautiful, healthy, blonde, blue-eyed daughter of parents who are doctors, pretty desirable in today's "market."If someone, saw a chance to either make big money, or have a special jewel to keep as their own, I think they might seize that opportunity.jmo
http://www.originscanada.org/infant.pdf

Sabot
07-09-2012, 04:54 AM
So-called "desirable " children, can be very difficult to find and possibly pay for. So here we have a beautiful, healthy, blonde, blue-eyed daughter of parents who are doctors, pretty desirable in today's "market."If someone, saw a chance to either make big money, or have a special jewel to keep as their own, I think they might seize that opportunity.jmo
http://www.originscanada.org/infant.pdf


I agree. Someone went to far too much trouble for a passing paedophile. This was a well organised abduction, almost certainly carried out by two people.
Adoption can be a lengthy and very expensive business, so it is definitely not inconceivable that someone would be prepared to pay a large sum of money for a desirable child, which Madeleine is. So I have high hopes that she is still very much alive.

DIRK SCHILLER
07-09-2012, 11:06 AM
if that man is right, who killed her? RM ? is that what he means?

dotr
07-09-2012, 11:10 AM
New.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2012/07/09/maddie-hunter-might-be-charged
"To get the evidence he hoped would convince the authorities he staked out the house for days and climbed over the fence in the early hours of the morning.

"It took four days using time-lapse cameras to determine the movement of the people and secondly to determine the pattern of where the dogs went. On some evenings the big dogs were in the front and small dogs were in the house. We had to get our timing right. It was a covert operation," said Birch.

After filming the find and posting the video on internet website YouTube, Birch said he had been told that the suspect was consulting lawyers about the validity of the clip and whether he could prefer criminal charges"

brit1981
07-09-2012, 11:57 AM
New.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2012/07/09/maddie-hunter-might-be-charged
"To get the evidence he hoped would convince the authorities he staked out the house for days and climbed over the fence in the early hours of the morning.

"It took four days using time-lapse cameras to determine the movement of the people and secondly to determine the pattern of where the dogs went. On some evenings the big dogs were in the front and small dogs were in the house. We had to get our timing right. It was a covert operation," said Birch.

After filming the find and posting the video on internet website YouTube, Birch said he had been told that the suspect was consulting lawyers about the validity of the clip and whether he could prefer criminal charges"

he hid and filmed the guy's house - stalker alert!!

One thing I do not understand is that he has said he did research which led him to this house. If one finds evidence thta leads you to believe a child has been buried in a house, it indicates you have found evidence of what actually happened to that child and who is involved, and therefore the police should have been called. Scotland yard are looking at it, there is crime stoppers, and the mccanns own investigators if he had some issue with the PJ. Now he has gone into the garden, even if she was found it could damage any trial (and no I do not believe she is there).

dotr
07-09-2012, 12:49 PM
brit1981, I think (hope) you made a typo, as I often do- did you mean the LE should have been called?!

brit1981
07-09-2012, 12:53 PM
brit1981, I think (hope) you made a typo, as I often do- did you mean the LE should have been called?!

Yes I had, thanks for that, it was a bad one!!!!

dotr
07-10-2012, 10:20 AM
New video today. Whatever one may think about the case, MM's Mother is going to help many others with missing loved ones.

Kate McCann - This Morning - Video Dailymotion

saggymoon
07-12-2012, 09:42 PM
Of course she is LOL Shame she didnt want to go look out for her own daughter at the time cos it was too cold and dark she said, but was nice and warm in her flat when she rang her rellies the priiest sky news etc

SapphireSteel
07-12-2012, 09:51 PM
I agree. Someone went to far too much trouble for a passing paedophile. This was a well organised abduction, almost certainly carried out by two people.
Adoption can be a lengthy and very expensive business, so it is definitely not inconceivable that someone would be prepared to pay a large sum of money for a desirable child, which Madeleine is. So I have high hopes that she is still very much alive.

Well organised?

They came in through an OPEN DOOR and left through A CLOSED WINDOW.

Allegedly.

brit1981
07-13-2012, 04:28 AM
New video today. Whatever one may think about the case, MM's Mother is going to help many others with missing loved ones.

Kate McCann - This Morning - Video Dailymotion (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xs2x1f_kate-mccann-this-morning_people)

I think its great that kate has been able to get so much attention drawn to missing children. Of course the usual suspects have started slagging off missing people now, claiming it is an organistation that is only interested in money, and forces children back into abusive situations. On facebook, a mother of a missing child supported Kate, and was ripped to pieces.

saggymoon
07-13-2012, 06:29 AM
I think its great that kate has been able to get so much attention drawn to missing children. Of course the usual suspects have started slagging off missing people now, claiming it is an organistation that is only interested in money, and forces children back into abusive situations. On facebook, a mother of a missing child supported Kate, and was ripped to pieces.
The consensus from the general public was that her appointment was a bad move seeing as her reputation is of a parent who left three babies alone night after night to go out which resulted in one of them vanishing. there were no usual suspects.

brit1981
07-13-2012, 07:27 AM
I have not seen that. I have only seen the usual butler and bennett types raging against her appointment. The general public support the mccanns, it is only a minority of people who are so vile about them. And in the UK this minority are not taken seriously by anyone, but themselves - look at bennett!

saggymoon
07-13-2012, 07:32 AM
I have not seen that. I have only seen the usual butler and bennett types raging against her appointment. The general public support the mccanns, it is only a minority of people who are so vile about them. And in the UK this minority are not taken seriously by anyone, but themselves - look at bennett!

I followed the posts from the beginning. there were a handful of posts from a certain forum but the vast majority were from ordinary supporters of the charity. they have all been deleted but have been screen shotted and saved.

dotr
07-13-2012, 01:12 PM
Marketing brilliance imo, KM is highly recognizable not only because her own child is missing,( by whomever and for whatever reason) but, KM is well- connected, educated and easy on the eyes. This could help everyone, especially at a time when the potential for human trafikking is greatest.jmo.

http://prexamples.com/2012/07/missing-people-enlist-kate-mccann-as-brand-ambassador-to-launch-digital-billboard-campaign/
"This summer is going to be one of the busiest in British history, so is the perfect time for outdoor media space owners to pull together like this and launch such a large scale digital campaign. The billboards will feature photos of the missing people, mainly children, their descriptions, and that all important phone number ’116 000′, which was launched earlier this year. (We covered the launch here).

Using ‘OpenLoop’ technology, staff and volunteers will be able to instantly update the billboards to display information about the latest high risk missing persons"

brit1981
07-13-2012, 01:20 PM
I think it is a really good idea, but I think it shoudl be EU wide. European countries do not really have amber alerts (a few do, but they are country specific.). It is so easy to cross a border. Even in the UK, it is easy to hide a child in a car if you use a ferry or the tunnel.
We need to do a more american amber alert style campaign when children go missing. If you could have details flash up on the radio (like the traffic alerts), or on electronic signs on the roads, it would be easier to track down people quickly.

saggymoon
07-13-2012, 01:41 PM
yes its great this number has been rolled out in the uk at last, its been in use in several eu countries for many many years and not a mccann initiative as reported back in 2008 and further.

The new billboard system of advertising missing people launched the other day is not the same as an amber alert though. And as regards the mccann case it would not have qualified for an amber alert as no one saw any abduction, there were no car descriptions or number plates and it is unknown at what time the alledged abduction happened.

dotr
07-13-2012, 02:22 PM
Perhaps it is time for both an Amber Alert and A Missing Persons billboard, to cover all the possibilities. I cannot say that I followed the MM case too closely and generally do not care for any particular politics or religion , other than trying to have a "live and let live" philosophy. .Hopefully others will learn from MM and be ever vigilant of our children.

saggymoon
07-13-2012, 02:28 PM
Perhaps it is time for both an Amber Alert and A Missing Persons billboard, to cover all the possibilities. I cannot say that I followed the MM case too closely and generally do not care for any particular politics or religion , other than trying to have a "live and let live" philosophy. It does not escape me that many women like to tell other women how to raise children, or that sometimes the so-called experts are lousy Mothers, having become accustomed to others doing "the dirty work" of it all. No one is perfect and everyone can be selfish and thoughtless at times.Having said that,here is a woman,( and husband!) who obviously made a terrible choice of leaving children alone and who is paying the price for it.Now who better than one who made a mistake, to make a public "correction"?
If that is what you think it is, then fair dos to you. to me its a little bit more complicated than that.
And I am not sure what you mean by *correction*.

the mccanns have never said what they did was wrong. They have only ever said they regret not being there at the moment she was taken, what kind of sense does that make? they just endorse leaving babies on their own out of ear and eyeshot in an unlocked publically accessible flat with a balcony the kids could fall over, and say thats ok. And that in the space of three weeks since she vanished they actually received thousands and thousands of letters telling them that others have done the same or would have done the same. pinocchio time for me.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/watch?v=GshQL5BNp5M

Early on in this interview

Anyway must dash hogging the board.

dotr
07-13-2012, 03:11 PM
If that is what you think it is, then fair dos to you. to me its a little bit more complicated than that.
And I am not sure what you mean by *correction*.

the mccanns have never said what they did was wrong. They have only ever said they regret not being there at the moment she was taken, what kind of sense does that make? they just endorse leaving babies on their own out of ear and eyeshot in an unlocked publically accessible flat with a balcony the kids could fall over, and say thats ok. And that in the space of three weeks since she vanished they actually received thousands and thousands of letters telling them that others have done the same or would have done the same. pinocchio time for me.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/watch?v=GshQL5BNp5M

Early on in this interview

Anyway must dash hogging the board.

Correction was the wrong word, so I corrected it,lol!

Sabot
07-14-2012, 01:14 AM
I have not seen that. I have only seen the usual butler and bennett types raging against her appointment. The general public support the mccanns, it is only a minority of people who are so vile about them. And in the UK this minority are not taken seriously by anyone, but themselves - look at bennett!

There was no general public opinion abusing Kate McCann or The Charity. It was just the same old same old saying the same old same old. We know who they are because we've seen it all before. I can even write their script for them these days.
And you are right. No one takes them seriously anymore.

saggymoon
07-14-2012, 04:42 PM
There was no general public opinion abusing Kate McCann or The Charity. It was just the same old same old saying the same old same old. We know who they are because we've seen it all before. I can even write their script for them these days.
And you are right. No one takes them seriously anymore.
Unless you know the facebook real names compared to forum
pseudo names you are in absolutely no position whatsoever at all to declare that the general public and supporters of missing people were not posting those posts of dissaproval, none whatsoever, stroll on dear

BritsKate
07-15-2012, 04:00 AM
There was no general public opinion abusing Kate McCann or The Charity. It was just the same old same old saying the same old same old. We know who they are because we've seen it all before. I can even write their script for them these days.
And you are right. No one takes them seriously anymore.
It's my understanding that anyone disagreeing with the appointment of McCann had their comment deleted. http://www.scribd.com/doc/99867333/Missing-People-Facebook-Deletions

Personally I believe it was a bad move on Missing People's part for a multitude of factors.

SapphireSteel
07-15-2012, 05:09 AM
I have not seen that. I have only seen the usual butler and bennett types raging against her appointment. The general public support the mccanns, it is only a minority of people who are so vile about them. And in the UK this minority are not taken seriously by anyone, but themselves - look at bennett!

This is not true.

The media and the British Government support the McCanns, but Joe Bloggs in the street does not.

The reason? Because the McCanns were wealthy doctors, on a wonderful holiday, and they neglected their children.

People can not get past that fact. The McCanns have vocal support, and the best PR money can buy, but despite this the majority of the public DOES NOT support them.

All you need to do is read the comment section of any McCann article on major news site, and you will see overwhelmingly that even those who give credance to the abduction theory are very unsupportive of the McCanns themselves.

They are still perceived as careless, neglectful parents, and always will be, because it is fact. They were careless, and they did neglect their children.

BritsKate
07-15-2012, 05:30 AM
This is not true.

The media and the British Government support the McCanns, but Joe Bloggs in the street does not.

The reason? Because the McCanns were wealthy doctors, on a wonderful holiday, and they neglected their children.

People can not get past that fact. The McCanns have vocal support, and the best PR money can buy, but despite this the majority of the public DOES NOT support them.

All you need to do is read the comment section of any McCann article on major news site, and you will see overwhelmingly that even those who give credance to the abduction theory are very unsupportive of the McCanns themselves.

They are still perceived as careless, neglectful parents, and always will be, because it is fact. They were careless, and they did neglect their children.
RBBM

That's been my experience. The majority of other parents I've personally spoken to about this case feel the McCann's are guilty of neglect if nothing else. FWIW

dotr
07-15-2012, 11:54 AM
No matter what people may think of the family, I hope that MM is found alive and failing that, at the very least, have her body recovered. If great effort is put into finding MM, then perhaps once and for all the -truth, for better or worse will be known. In the meantime,any info uncovered may help others with missing/abducted or murdered family, especially in foreign countries.

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 12:15 PM
No matter what people may think of the family, I hope that MM is found alive and failing that, at the very least, have her body recovered. If great effort is put into finding MM, then perhaps once and for all the -truth, for better or worse will be known. In the meantime,any info uncovered may help others with missing/abducted or murdered family, especially in foreign countries.

Where is this great effort supposed to come from and in what form that hasnt already been tried? to date and for five years we have had

A massive portuguese investigation costing millions of euros and untold mantime which resulted in the police declaring they think there was a death and simulation of an abduction, something the final judges report did not say was untrue, the case was shelved with the point being made the type of crime is unknown and that no evidence was had on the suspects so they had to lift their arguido status pending further info
A quarter of a million pounds spentby the UK police whilst working alongside the portuguese in 2007/2008
Alledgedly millions given by the mccanns fund to private investigators
The biggest media exposure ever in any missing child case
hundreds of tv shows and documentaries made
private individuals who helped from the first day until now
Millions in reward money
poster campaigns and other such stuff
A facebook page with thousands of followers
A book written by the mother hoping to elicit someones memory or conscience
A 3.5 million budget by scotland yard from spring 2011 to review the evidence
Dozens of people touted as *suspects* and not one proved to be in any way involved
And the result is nada, zilch, nothing
What does not add up here? Apart from this alledged abductor being cleverer than the scarlwt pimpernel?
so which effort would you like to see dotr?
I would send in another batch of cadaver dogs

dotr
07-15-2012, 03:42 PM
The effort to overlook personal opinion for the greater good.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4420309/Madeleine-McCann-mum-becomes-ambassador-for-missing-people.html
She said: “Having these billboards on show could prick the conscience of people who know where that person is or what has happened.


“I’ve been told by experts that you need to keep ‘pricking’ the conscience of that someone who knows.


“Keep prodding until finally that person thinks, ‘I’ve had enough’ and comes forward with information about where the missing person is.”


In her new role, Kate, from Rothley, Leics, will be speaking at events, lobbying Parliament for better funding of the charity and supporting families whose loved ones have disappeared.


She also hopes the campaign will raise public awareness of the whole issue of missing people.


She said: “It was recently revealed that in the UK a child goes missing every three minutes. That is frankly terrifying.”
"

brit1981
07-15-2012, 05:00 PM
I think sadly it will be chance that finds Madeleine, especially if she has been killed. There is only so much the police can do, they cannot search the home and garden of each and every person in PDL, let alone those within driving distance. And that is assuming she is either being held alive, or buried, locally. If she was taken a distance away, or dropped into the sea it is bordering on the impossible to find her. Look at Peter Tobin, if he had not killed for a third time, and this time someone he knew, he would never have been caught, and his two other victims would have just lain in his old garden until someone decided to do work there. That is despite the fact he was nown to have drugged and raped two teenage girls, and lived in Bathgate where his victim disappeared (and five hundred miles from where he buried her).

But there is always hope, and not looking will certainly not find her.

I have lined to an article on the thread for Martin Allen, in the 1970s missing forum. In this article a policeman describe show there were departments of the police that dealt with missing art etc, but not one dedicated to missing children!

Cappuccino
07-15-2012, 05:08 PM
Where is this great effort supposed to come from and in what form that hasnt already been tried? to date and for five years we have had

A massive portuguese investigation costing millions of euros and untold mantime which resulted in the police declaring they think there was a death and simulation of an abduction, something the final judges report did not say was untrue, the case was shelved with the point being made the type of crime is unknown and that no evidence was had on the suspects so they had to lift their arguido status pending further info
A quarter of a million pounds spentby the UK police whilst working alongside the portuguese in 2007/2008
Alledgedly millions given by the mccanns fund to private investigators
The biggest media exposure ever in any missing child case
hundreds of tv shows and documentaries made
private individuals who helped from the first day until now
Millions in reward money
poster campaigns and other such stuff
A facebook page with thousands of followers
A book written by the mother hoping to elicit someones memory or conscience
A 3.5 million budget by scotland yard from spring 2011 to review the evidence
Dozens of people touted as *suspects* and not one proved to be in any way involved
And the result is nada, zilch, nothing
What does not add up here? Apart from this alledged abductor being cleverer than the scarlwt pimpernel?
so which effort would you like to see dotr?
I would send in another batch of cadaver dogs

You obviously think Madeleine's parents did something to her. Let's say you're right. What did they do with her? Are they also "cleverer than the Scarlet Pimpernel"?

SapphireSteel
07-15-2012, 05:37 PM
You obviously think Madeleine's parents did something to her. Let's say you're right. What did they do with her? Are they also "cleverer than the Scarlet Pimpernel"?

They are believed to have moved her body several times.

The first evening the secreted her somewhere nearby. They moved her very early the next morning.

Suggestions were made in regards to a Church that Kate frequented. Pat Brown, a noted US forensic profiler, walked through PDL and formed the opinion that the rocky part of the beach would be the natural place in the first instance, either lightly buried or under part of the cliff.

Results of testing in the hire car indicated that she may have been frozen, and her body finally dumped weeks after. Suggestions are at sea, where she would sink without trace.

One thing I am sure of, is she will never be found, either dead or alive.

:moo:

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 07:13 PM
You obviously think Madeleine's parents did something to her. Let's say you're right. What did they do with her? Are they also "cleverer than the Scarlet Pimpernel"?

Where did I say they did something to her? i dont like everyone else know. I think they know exactly what has happened, whatever that was. that is my opinion. i dont believe their spin and never have.

i was responding to dotr who said that great effort is needed to find her. And asking which great effort might that be? and listed all the efforts already made.

Edit to previous post, 3/4 million spent by leicester police, not 1/4
as for cleverer than the scarlet pimpernel you obviously have not cottoned on to the magic verbal tricks of gerry mccann

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 07:24 PM
The effort to overlook personal opinion for the greater good.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4420309/Madeleine-McCann-mum-becomes-ambassador-for-missing-people.html
She said: “Having these billboards on show could prick the conscience of people who know where that person is or what has happened.


“I’ve been told by experts that you need to keep ‘pricking’ the conscience of that someone who knows.


“Keep prodding until finally that person thinks, ‘I’ve had enough’ and comes forward with information about where the missing person is.”


In her new role, Kate, from Rothley, Leics, will be speaking at events, lobbying Parliament for better funding of the charity and supporting families whose loved ones have disappeared.


She also hopes the campaign will raise public awareness of the whole issue of missing people.


She said: “It was recently revealed that in the UK a child goes missing every three minutes. That is frankly terrifying.”
"

billboards in the uk will do exactly what after five years of madeleines face being on the front pages of many newspapers around the world and on the tv screens to millions

Cappuccino
07-15-2012, 07:28 PM
They are believed to have moved her body several times.

Believed by whom? And on what evidence?

The first evening the secreted her somewhere nearby. They moved her very early the next morning.

Citation needed.

Suggestions were made in regards to a Church that Kate frequented.

What suggestions exactly, and by whom? Are there any evidentiary supports for these suggestions?

Pat Brown, a noted US forensic profiler

HAHAHAHAHA. Oh for the love of all that's holy. Pat Brown is Sylvia Brown with more sciency troothiness in her PR campaign. End of. Don't quote charlatans like that at me.


Results of testing in the hire car indicated that she may have been frozen, and her body finally dumped weeks after.

Can you show me links to the lab reports of these tests please?

Suggestions are at sea, where she would sink without trace.


Suggestions by whom and on what evidence?

One thing I am sure of, is she will never be found, either dead or alive.


*Sigh* I wish this wasn't the one thing I agreed with you about, but I'm afraid it is.

SapphireSteel
07-15-2012, 07:37 PM
Believed by whom? And on what evidence?



Citation needed.



What suggestions exactly, and by whom? Are there any evidentiary supports for these suggestions?



HAHAHAHAHA. Oh for the love of all that's holy. Pat Brown is Sylvia Brown with more sciency troothiness in her PR campaign. End of. Don't quote charlatans like that at me.




Can you show me links to the lab reports of these tests please?



Suggestions by whom and on what evidence?



*Sigh* I wish this wasn't the one thing I agreed with you about, but I'm afraid it is.

All of the above is freely available on MSM.

Cappuccino
07-15-2012, 07:43 PM
Then there should be no problem for you providing the links I asked for. You're the one making the claims after all.

Let's make it simple - please post a link to the "lab reports which indicate she may have been frozen and dumped at sea weeks after."

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 07:47 PM
*Sigh* I wish this wasn't the one thing I agreed with you about, but I'm afraid it is.
And the reason for you thinking she will never be found is?

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 07:49 PM
I think sadly it will be chance that finds Madeleine, especially if she has been killed. There is only so much the police can do, they cannot search the home and garden of each and every person in PDL, let alone those within driving distance. And that is assuming she is either being held alive, or buried, locally. If she was taken a distance away, or dropped into the sea it is bordering on the impossible to find her. Look at Peter Tobin, if he had not killed for a third time, and this time someone he knew, he would never have been caught, and his two other victims would have just lain in his old garden until someone decided to do work there. That is despite the fact he was nown to have drugged and raped two teenage girls, and lived in Bathgate where his victim disappeared (and five hundred miles from where he buried her).

But there is always hope, and not looking will certainly not find her.

I have lined to an article on the thread for Martin Allen, in the 1970s missing forum. In this article a policeman describe show there were departments of the police that dealt with missing art etc, but not one dedicated to missing children!
Well scotland yard have 3.5 million pound to rake over old ground, seeing as they are supposed to be the best in the business lets wish them luck

Sabot
07-16-2012, 02:55 AM
Unless you know the facebook real names compared to forum
pseudo names you are in absolutely no position whatsoever at all to declare that the general public and supporters of missing people were not posting those posts of dissaproval, none whatsoever, stroll on dear

I do know most of the real names. When you have been as involved as I have it doesn't take that much effort to spot these people. They are all over Face Book and Twitter, and their style, if you can call it that, is not difficult to follow up. They all give themselves away in the end even if they do use numerous Socks.

Sabot
07-16-2012, 02:59 AM
This is not true.

The media and the British Government support the McCanns, but Joe Bloggs in the street does not.

The reason? Because the McCanns were wealthy doctors, on a wonderful holiday, and they neglected their children.

People can not get past that fact. The McCanns have vocal support, and the best PR money can buy, but despite this the majority of the public DOES NOT support them.

All you need to do is read the comment section of any McCann article on major news site, and you will see overwhelmingly that even those who give credance to the abduction theory are very unsupportive of the McCanns themselves.

They are still perceived as careless, neglectful parents, and always will be, because it is fact. They were careless, and they did neglect their children.

Just check the numbers who signed The Petition in support of The McCanns, and then check the numbers who have signed various Petitions against them.
The vast difference makes it glaringly obvious that The Public do support The McCanns.

Sabot
07-16-2012, 03:07 AM
All of the above is freely available on MSM.

But absolutely No Proof. Just the meanderings of an Incompetent Policeman with a Criminal Record for Lying Under Oath, and Forum Myths.

SapphireSteel
07-16-2012, 04:15 AM
But absolutely No Proof. Just the meanderings of an Incompetent Policeman with a Criminal Record for Lying Under Oath, and Forum Myths.

The British police were the ones who first developed information against the McCanns. Until they declared they had found evidence implicating the McCanns, the Portugese LE were in fact investigating an abduction.

The British police were also the ones who provided and paid for Eddie and Keela, and the services of FSS Ltd.

Sabot
07-16-2012, 07:33 AM
The British police were the ones who first developed information against the McCanns. Until they declared they had found evidence implicating the McCanns, the Portugese LE were in fact investigating an abduction.

The British police were also the ones who provided and paid for Eddie and Keela, and the services of FSS Ltd.

This is simply not true. The British Police simply said that everyone must be considered, including the parents, which is perfectly normal.
The Dogs were not provided by The British Police because Martin Grime had already retired from The British Police at that point, taking his dogs with him. If you had read The Files you would know this.
Martin Grime had already set up a Private Company, and only that Company was paid for the use of Eddie and Keela in Portugal. Also in Jersey to the tune of £97,000.

I really don't want to take cheap shots, but I am so tired of the lies and distortions. Eddie The Cadaver Dog was never any such thing because he had been trained originally to scent Blood in a Search and Rescue situation, so no one, not even his Handler knows precisely what he was reacting to. But he did react to The Car Key Fob which only contained the blood of Gerry McCann, who is still very much alive on the last occasion that I heard.

You really should read the transcript of The Casey Anthony Case wherein The Dog Handler said that a Cadaver Dog will react to decomposing body fluids from Live People.

brit1981
07-16-2012, 01:35 PM
They are believed to have moved her body several times.

The first evening the secreted her somewhere nearby. They moved her very early the next morning.

Suggestions were made in regards to a Church that Kate frequented. Pat Brown, a noted US forensic profiler, walked through PDL and formed the opinion that the rocky part of the beach would be the natural place in the first instance, either lightly buried or under part of the cliff.

Results of testing in the hire car indicated that she may have been frozen, and her body finally dumped weeks after. Suggestions are at sea, where she would sink without trace.

One thing I am sure of, is she will never be found, either dead or alive.

:moo:

There have been no indicatiosn she was ever in the car whatsoever. they found hair in the car - that is normal. Hair being found in your own car does not indicate you had a dead body in it. they found an unidentifible bodily fluid belonging to three to five people, which madeleine cannot be excluded from, but which it is equally possible came from her parents (her parent's DNA contains all of madeleine's components). So the material could quite easily belong to the mccans, which as they used the car is not suspicious.

At no point do the police, the numerous journalists or any other witness recall seeing the McCanns carrying anything that could be a body.

Like everyone keeps pointing out cadaver dogs were used, and failed to find a body. Sniffer dogs failed to find her the night she disappeared. What freezer where they supposed to use? Why did they allow someone to film them during the three months after madeleine disappeared. Madeleine was seen alive at half past six, the Mccanns were seen at dinner at eight thirty, they had a two hour window for madeleine to die, for them to hide her body somewhere where the police did not find it, and come up with the entire plan. Why despite the fact they were being followed by the world's media did no-one notice them moving around and burying a body?

And pat brown I believe, can only call herself a profiler because in the US anyonce can as no qualifications are needed. I believe her qualifications amount to an MA in criminal justice and reading books. I do not believe she has ever been employed by the police or FBI to help track down a killer. She is not so much noted as semi-famous due to self publicity.

brit1981
07-16-2012, 01:50 PM
Grimes writes in his report that Eddie alerts to bodily fluid. The dog is a sweet little chap, but sadly not much use unless a body is actually found. If there is no body all anyone can say is that the dog alerted to a bodily fluid that is degrading. As there was nail, hair, and an unidentifible bodily fluid in the car then Eddie would alert to these (assuming he reacted correctly).

there is also a big difference betwen information available on the internet and facts. The madeleine foundation, the madeleine McCann research group (same people), and their supporters such as debbie butler and Tony bennett are resposnible for putting a lot of this rubbish about.

the general public do support the mccans, people like the above are in the vast minority. This is why Gerry has been invited to tae part in the last stages of the leveson inquiry, and Kate has been made an ambassador for missing people. Those against them constitute a vicious and vocal minority, some of whom have been investigated by the police for their behaviour. Some of the things they have said about madeleine are sickening - lie claiming photographs of her giggling on the floor, or eating an ice cream, are sexually proocative, and there are threads going into great detail about this, which says more about them then anyone else.
Sabot is right, they are incredibly easy to recognize, be it their twitter ramblings or their various little forums.

SapphireSteel
07-16-2012, 04:01 PM
Grimes writes in his report that Eddie alerts to bodily fluid. The dog is a sweet little chap, but sadly not much use unless a body is actually found. If there is no body all anyone can say is that the dog alerted to a bodily fluid that is degrading. As there was nail, hair, and an unidentifible bodily fluid in the car then Eddie would alert to these (assuming he reacted correctly).

there is also a big difference betwen information available on the internet and facts. The madeleine foundation, the madeleine McCann research group (same people), and their supporters such as debbie butler and Tony bennett are resposnible for putting a lot of this rubbish about.

the general public do support the mccans, people like the above are in the vast minority. This is why Gerry has been invited to tae part in the last stages of the leveson inquiry, and Kate has been made an ambassador for missing people. Those against them constitute a vicious and vocal minority, some of whom have been investigated by the police for their behaviour. Some of the things they have said about madeleine are sickening - lie claiming photographs of her giggling on the floor, or eating an ice cream, are sexually proocative, and there are threads going into great detail about this, which says more about them then anyone else.
Sabot is right, they are incredibly easy to recognize, be it their twitter ramblings or their various little forums.

The British Police themselves believe the McCanns are guilty.

There is now proof of high level involvement in the direction of investigation of this crime.

I would question why the prime minister of your country has involved himself in a missing child case, further exactly what personal relationship or associations he has with Gerry McCann.

There have been many questions as to the involvement of Clarence Mitchell, McCann spokesperson, in particular his relationship with several high ranking British government officials, including one David Cameron.

If the McCanns had've been ordinary people, they would have been charged with neglect. The fact that they were not begs the question "why"?

The publishing of the wikileaks communication between the US and British Ambassadors is proof of involvement at a diplomatic level. Why Madeline, where other missing children are not the focus of high level communications?

Anyone who ISN'T asking questions of these anomalies is being extremely naive.

:moo:

Sabot
07-16-2012, 04:22 PM
Merci beaucoup, Brit 1981. But when does Opinion become Libellous? I really do not know. And I don't suppose that I actually care.
I know that many lies are spoken, and that there never has been any evidence to implicate The McCanns in the disappearance of their daughter.
I also know that Eddie, The Cadaver Dog remains no better able to find a Cadaver than my soppy mutt could. If there is a Cadaver to be found, then any dog can find it. It stinks, okay.
Eddie remains only capable of scenting Blood or other body fluids from live people if there is no body.

What do you want me to say? There was no Body. There was never any proof that The McCanns harmed their daughter. Madeleine was abducted. But I don't care of what anyone thinks of otherwise. I am just so sick of the lies and distortions that these horrible people keep on churning out. They have absolutely no proof of what they say.

SapphireSteel
07-16-2012, 04:36 PM
Merci beaucoup, Brit 1981. But when does Opinion become Libellous? I really do not know. And I don't suppose that I actually care.
I know that many lies are spoken, and that there never has been any evidence to implicate The McCanns in the disappearance of their daughter.
I also know that Eddie, The Cadaver Dog remains no better able to find a Cadaver than my soppy mutt could. If there is a Cadaver to be found, then any dog can find it. It stinks, okay.
Eddie remains only capable of scenting Blood or other body fluids from live people if there is no body.

What do you want me to say? There was no Body. There was never any proof that The McCanns harmed their daughter. Madeleine was abducted. But I don't care of what anyone thinks of otherwise. I am just so sick of the lies and distortions that these horrible people keep on churning out. They have absolutely no proof of what they say.

This is untrue, further I too am sick of the pro-McCanns ignoring facts and evidence that we DO have -

In a diplomatic cable marked confidential, the US ambassador reported: "Without delving into the details of the case, Ellis admitted that the British police had developed the current evidence against the McCann parents, and he stressed that authorities from both countries were working co-operatively."


The comments attributed to the ambassador throw fresh light on the case built against the McCanns, which was widely believed to have been driven by the Portuguese police, and in particular the extent of the involvement of the British police and authorities.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8200186/WikiLeaks-British-police-helped-develop-evidence-against-Madeline-McCanns-parents.html

Sabot
07-16-2012, 04:44 PM
The British Police themselves believe the McCanns are guilty.

There is now proof of high level involvement in the direction of investigation of this crime.

I would question why the prime minister of your country has involved himself in a missing child case, further exactly what personal relationship or associations he has with Gerry McCann.

There have been many questions as to the involvement of Clarence Mitchell, McCann spokesperson, in particular his relationship with several high ranking British government officials, including one David Cameron.

If the McCanns had've been ordinary people, they would have been charged with neglect. The fact that they were not begs the question "why"?

The publishing of the wikileaks communication between the US and British Ambassadors is proof of involvement at a diplomatic level. Why Madeline, where other missing children are not the focus of high level communications?

Anyone who ISN'T asking questions of these anomalies is being extremely naive.

:moo:

Oh Perleeze do bugger off. The whole World is IN IT if this is what you believe. The Portuguese Judiciary is IN IT now, is it?

Goncalo Amaral was convicted of Perjury in the Case of another missing child some few miles from where Madeleine went missing. Or do you think that this is by the by? Do you think that it was acceptable to beat a Confession out of this peasant woman? And do you believe that she was guilty when The Portuguese Police beat her black and blue?

Good God. There are times when I can't hack this.

Sabot
07-16-2012, 05:09 PM
This is untrue, further I too am sick of the pro-McCanns ignoring facts and evidence that we DO have -

In a diplomatic cable marked confidential, the US ambassador reported: "Without delving into the details of the case, Ellis admitted that the British police had developed the current evidence against the McCann parents, and he stressed that authorities from both countries were working co-operatively."


The comments attributed to the ambassador throw fresh light on the case built against the McCanns, which was widely believed to have been driven by the Portuguese police, and in particular the extent of the involvement of the British police and authorities.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8200186/WikiLeaks-British-police-helped-develop-evidence-against-Madeline-McCanns-parents.html

Ah, So, The McCanns are about to be arrested, are they? Oh No, sorry. That rubbish wasn't true. Just more Media hype.
But there you go. Never mind, Lovey, one of these days your dreams won't come true.

OneLove
07-16-2012, 05:18 PM
There was never any proof that The McCanns harmed their daughter. y.

Likewise, there was never any proof that The McCanns did NOT harm their daughter.

To leap from either of these statements to "She was abducted" would lead a rational person with a functioning brain to believe that the person making that statement was actually there when it happened.

Is this true? Were you in the room when she was "abducted"?

Sabot
07-16-2012, 05:54 PM
Likewise, there was never any proof that The McCanns did NOT harm their daughter.

To leap from either of these statements to "She was abducted" would lead a rational person with a functioning brain to believe that the person making that statement was actually there when it happened.

Is this true? Were you in the room when she was "abducted"?

Take it to a Court of Law. And then let's see how far you get.

Oh Sorry, I forgot. The whole World is IN IT. Absolutely everyone is covering for a couple of middle class Doctors who must have some horrendous secret that would bring down The Governments of several Countries.
Is this what you believe?

SapphireSteel
07-16-2012, 06:09 PM
Take it to a Court of Law. And then let's see how far you get.

Oh Sorry, I forgot. The whole World is IN IT. Absolutely everyone is covering for a couple of middle class Doctors who must have some horrendous secret that would bring down The Governments of several Countries.
Is this what you believe?

Makes more sense than blaming a "well-organised" abductor who entered an unlocked door yet felt compelled to exit through a locked window (complete with sleeping child) while adults were roaming constantly through the resort "checking" their children.

It also explains the cadaver scent in 5a.

It also explains why Martin Smith later identified the man he saw carrying a sleeping child as Gerry McCann.

It also explains why Jane Tanner allegedly saw the man carrying the child, yet failed to recognise the child as Madeline, mid "abduction".

LucyOso
07-16-2012, 06:43 PM
This is not true.

The media and the British Government support the McCanns, but Joe Bloggs in the street does not.

The reason? Because the McCanns were wealthy doctors, on a wonderful holiday, and they neglected their children.People can not get past that fact. The McCanns have vocal support, and the best PR money can buy, but despite this the majority of the public DOES NOT support them.

All you need to do is read the comment section of any McCann article on major news site, and you will see overwhelmingly that even those who give credance to the abduction theory are very unsupportive of the McCanns themselves.

They are still perceived as careless, neglectful parents, and always will be, because it is fact. They were careless, and they did neglect their children.

BBM. Here is some information on what doctors make around the world. We can't compare US doctors salaries with those in the UK and abroad. I do not think this has any relevance. You have to look at purchasing-power parity and many other socio-economic variables before assuming being a doctor is equal to wealth.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/

http://www.practicelink.com/magazine/vital-stats/physician-compensation-worldwide/

brit1981
07-17-2012, 06:45 AM
A locum GP woring two days a week, and a hospitol doctor with no private practice woudl not be considered wealthy. Mark warner resorts are not exactly luxury holidays.

I would also like to point out that in the UK the vast majority do support them. there is a rather vocal and vile minority that stir up trouble, but these are regarded just as the tin foil hat brigade in the UK (they seem to see conspiracies everywhere, and have come up with a theory that everyone from the government down is in on it).

Martin Smith never identified the man as Gerry McCann. he admitted it was dark and he did not have on his glasses, but said he thought the way he turned his face reminded him of Gerry Mccann. the other adults there did not back this up, and lots of people were able to place Gerry at the resort at this time (unless of course all these people at the resort, and Martin Smith's family are also in on it). So we have Smith claiming he is not 100% sure he saw Gerry, versus an entire group of people including mark Warner staff saying they are 100% certain they saw gerry at the resort at this time.

As for the cadaver scent, the dog alerts to bodily fluids (unless of course Grime sis in it too, and is lying about the fact his dogs alert to bodily fluids).

Jane tanner aslo said she never saw the face of the child, and just assumed it was a person carrying their own child. She said she only noticed it because the child had bare feet, and was being carried in an odd way.

So we have the Portuguese and British governments, the US ambassador, the FSS (which was really a privately owned comapny with no legal rights to examine DNA and links to the McCanns, and as pre 2007 the government was still claming it was an executive agency of the government, and then a government own agency they must have been planning this for years), the police, the british CPS, the Portuguese prosecution service, all of the mccanns friends and relatives, several workers at the mark warner resorts, several private investigative firms all conspiring to cover up the death of a child for an ordinary couple from the north. And the two lights of truth are a former detective with a criminal conviction for fabricating evidence, and a former solicitor with a reputation for targeting people in this way who so far has not been able to back up his claims and is now facing a possible prison term.

BritsKate
07-17-2012, 07:04 AM
A locum GP woring two days a week, and a hospitol doctor with no private practice woudl not be considered wealthy. Mark warner resorts are not exactly luxury holidays.

I would also like to point out that in the UK the vast majority do support them. there is a rather vocal and vile minority that stir up trouble, but these are regarded just as the tin foil hat brigade in the UK (they seem to see conspiracies everywhere, and have come up with a theory that everyone from the government down is in on it).

Martin Smith never identified the man as Gerry McCann. he admitted it was dar and he did not have on his glasses, but said he thought the way he turned his face remineded him of Gerry Mccann. the other adults there did nto bac this up, and lot sof people were able to place gerry at the resort at this time (unless of course all these people at the resort, and martin Smith's family are also in on it).
I don't personally believe any one of us can speak for the whole of Britain. In my area (West Mids) everyone I have spoken to of this case most assuredly don't 'support' the McCanns. They may not feel the McCann's are complicit in their daughter's disappearance but there are very varied reactions - believing them guilty of neglect; feeling an unfair and overly sympathetic press factors in; etc. Some think they're innocent - others (like myself) have many more questions and just don't know if they're guilty of disappearing Maddie. None have ever admitted to donating to the fund. Some feel Portugal has been unfairly portrayed.

My youngest is in primary still and I've spoken to a lot of other people, mostly parents themselves, about this case. By and far the majority have all expressed some doubt and concern especially in leaving the little ones alone. Strangely though none of them were wearing tin foil hats. ;)

brit1981
07-17-2012, 07:22 AM
There is a difference to not agreeing with leaving children alone, and thinking there is a giant conspiracy involving governemtns that you see posters both here and on other sites claiming. That is tin foil hat territory.
Most people support them as people who have lost a child. they may not like them or think they were great parents, but they do not think they within a two hour period had their daughter die, refuse to get her help, hide her body (bearing in mind they had no car, no spades, and did not know the area), come bac and change and get ready for dinner, and then as their friends and several mark warner workers to help cover it up. Some of the tapas 9 were not actually good friends of theirs, they ha donly met them once or twice before, and one they had never met before. can you imagine the coversation "hi, before we start ordering our food, we thought we should mention our daughter died. We have hidden her body, and covered it all up, but we thought about staging an abuduction and then an international campaign to find her (after all what we want now is hundreds of journalists following our every move), so who is up for lying for us and helping ?"

What questions do you have?

BritsKate
07-17-2012, 08:27 AM
There is a difference to not agreeing with leaving children alone, and thinking there is a giant conspiracy involving governemtns that you see posters both here and on other sites claiming. That is tin foil hat territory.
Most people support them as people who have lost a child. they may not like them or think they were great parents, but they do not think they within a two hour period had their daughter die, refuse to get her help, hide her body (bearing in mind they had no car, no spades, and did not know the area), come bac and change and get ready for dinner, and then as their friends and several mark warner workers to help cover it up. Some of the tapas 9 were not actually good friends of theirs, they ha donly met them once or twice before, and one they had never met before. can you imagine the coversation "hi, before we start ordering our food, we thought we should mention our daughter died. We have hidden her body, and covered it all up, but we thought about staging an abuduction and then an international campaign to find her (after all what we want now is hundreds of journalists following our every move), so who is up for lying for us and helping ?"

What questions do you have?
BBM

Many but they cannot be answered by inherent belief in the account given by the McCann's and their friends alone. It appears, as is often the case, that a lot of people form opinions based on the account of those last seen with the victim.

I automatically suspect the last seen account, and the parents, in missing children's cases. Too much of my life spent studying historical and current patterns of filicide. It is more common in the past decade for a parent to harm their child and then claim abduction - even going so far as to enlist aid from unsuspecting media, family, and friends - then ever before. Yes, stranger abductions do occur (though usually with older children). The younger the child the more my personal hinky meter is raised with statistics being what they are.

This case is extremely frustrating due to the inability to locate truly impartial information. It seems every site I visit is either pro or anti McCann and everyone (including media) keeps putting their spin on it.

brit1981
07-17-2012, 08:51 AM
Even if you think David payne is lying about seeing madeleine at six thirty, mark warner staff said they saw her at six alive and well, and the tapas bar staff vouch for her parents being at dinner at eight thirty. So that is at most a two and a half hour window.

Plenty of the witnesses after madeleine went missing were other guests and hotel staff. Also the "tapas 9" have kept to the same story - it is pretty hard for nine people to keep up the same lie for five years.

the way I look at it is that if the McCanns had hidden madeleine where did they do this? Ignoring Payne's account, she was seen by staff at six, and her parents were seen two and a half hours later. They had no access to car, no-one recalls them buying digging tools, no witnesses recall seeing them walking anywhere during this time, they did not know the area. They also called the police, and had the place crawling with people and sniffer dogs by eleven. Where on earth could they have put her within walking distance, with no spade or anything, that no-one ever found her, not even the search dogs?

Also why hide it, there has never been evidence of sedatives found, the place did not smell of cleaning products or vomit - or at least the police and staff never mentioned it. What on earth happened in those two and a half hours that resulted in madeleine dying, and her parents deciding not to get her help, and then carrying out the staged abduction.

And why would seven other people, not all of whom knew them well, agree to help cover it up? Thin of it this way, if your friend was caught speeding, woudl you agree to lie for them and say you were driving? not liely, yet they got seven people, not all of whom knew them well, to lie about a child's death and not change their story once in five years?

As for the evidence against the Mccanns that was the dogs and FSS findings, but in actual fact if you read the reports it does not amount to anything. the dogs alert to bodily fluids (only keela just alerts to blood), so that could come from anything not just a corpse. And the material that they said could have belonged to madeleine, could just as equally have belonged to her parents (they found a tiny amounts of DNA that came from three to five people, and had 15 of madeleine's 19 components, but these same components would also be found in the dna of her parents, and to a lesser extent other relatives).

Sabot
07-17-2012, 12:42 PM
Goncalo Amaral, the detective in charge of investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has lost his Defamation Case against Marcos Correia. The Torture of Leonor Cipriano has been confirmed, and Amaral will pay the Costs of This Case.

SapphireSteel
07-17-2012, 05:05 PM
Goncalo Amaral, the detective in charge of investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has lost his Defamation Case against Marcos Correia. The Torture of Leonor Cipriano has been confirmed, and Amaral will pay the Costs of This Case.

The attempt by the McCanns to force censorship on the final 7500 copies of Amaral's book, "The Truth of the Lie" have failed.

A judge in Portugal has overturned the original injunction and ordered the immediate return of all copies of the book which Team McCann had attempted to have destroyed.

This does not, however, mean the book is available in the UK. The McCanns have effectively been able to prevent the British Public from being able to read this book as its sale is still banned in the UK.



http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/05/mccann-couple-banned-book-returns-to.html

I find it compelling that the supposedly grieved parents of a missing baby who by their own admission, want publicity for their daughter, are involved so deeply in repeated legal actions to prevent distribution of the only book which so precisely spells out the beliefs and actions of the Portugese police.

This is censorship, no more no less, and as such it has failed. History shows us that censorship is ultimately useless, and reflects more on those attempting to impinge freedom of speech, than it does on those exercising freedom of speech.

dotr
07-17-2012, 05:08 PM
Perhaps some lessons can be learned from the sad tale of the abduction of Etan Patz in New York.His parents faced scrutiny, but they stuck to their guns and waited for over 3 decades for answers.A recent media blitz resulted in tweaking someone finally to come forward with info. they had kept all those years..
Post 686 John Sands, posted a very good short video of Etan's parents...
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169934&page=28

Sabot
07-18-2012, 03:58 AM
Amaral's Book was allowed to be returned to bookshops simply because The Appeal Court decided it has not yet been deemed to be Libellous in a Court of Law. The forthcoming Libel Trial in September will decide that.
Meanwhile, Amaral is still awaiting trial for The Torture of Leandro Silva who is the husband of Leonor Cipriano, who definitely was Tortured. Only on this next occasion it is Amaral himself who is accused.

BritsKate
07-18-2012, 04:25 AM
I don't understand why Etan Patz keeps being used as a comparison to this case. :waitasec: Etan's case, while tragic, has little in common other than the parents being suspect. The parents are nearly always suspect in these cases.

Why? Because predominantly child crime victims know their perpetrator - the younger the child the smaller the pool of possible perpetrators. In theory anyway. There are, of course, anomalies to every crime statistic. (Like Jamie Bulger)

Etan was both older than Madeleine and was walking alone in a public area. Jessica Lunsford; Isabel Celis; Lisa Irwin; Sabrina Aisenberg; Ayla Reynolds; Sierra Newbold; Aaliyah Lunsford; Haleigh Cummings; Sky Metalwala; and Rahma el-Dennaoui are all more closely aligned to the facts of Maddie's case. All were either reportedly abducted from their bedrooms, abducted as toddlers, or both. Sadly there are so many more names that could be added too but those are off the top of my head.

Of the list:
Jessica Lunsford, 9, and Sierra Newbold, 6, were both kidnapped and murdered by sex offenders. Very rarely do we see an 'Elizabeth Smart' scenario in these crimes. The victim is generally assaulted and murdered very quickly.

Lisa (20 months), Aaliyah (3 years), Rahma (19 months), Sky (2 years), Haleigh (5 years); Sabrina (5 months), Ayla (20 months), and Isabel (6 years) have not been located. No charges have been filed in relation to their disappearances. Each child's parent(s) remain suspect at least in the court of public opinion.

This isn't to imply the McCann's either did or did not disappear Maddie but I feel if we're comparing her disappearance to other crimes against children better comparisons are available. MOO and FWIW

brit1981
07-18-2012, 06:29 AM
I think a "good" comparison is poor little Sophie Hook, who was abducted and murdered in 1995.
She had been sleeping the garden of her uncle's home with her cousins (maybe siblings), and the next morning was found missing. The other children did not hear anything, and the garden was fairly well enclosed. sadly Sophie was found murdered. A man had overheard the children talking about their plans, and crept into the garden at night and taken Sophie, murdered her, and dumped her body on the local beach. It appeared he had been spying on the garden, and listened in to conversations. I wonder how the case would have turned out had she never been found.

brit1981
07-18-2012, 07:26 AM
here is a murder case of an australian woman in the algarve in 2008. Apparently the pm said she had been killed with multiple blows with an axe, but the PJ said it was suicide. ccording to the report she live din an area where there was drug and child traffiking to north africa, and her family believed she may have seen something. She left a note saying she was going away, she did not now how things would wor out and asking for forgiveness. The PJ said this was a suicide note, but her family do not believe it, and the PM said she was killed by mutilple blows with an axe and had defnesive wounds.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/jacinta-rees-murdered-covered-up-by-portugal-police/story-e6frf92f-1225942731759

As for Amaral,
he has never been cleared of torture, and his criminal conviction still stands. he has lost his case in the criminal courts now, and has been ordered to pay not only the defence costs, but those of the court too. Something which can easily run up into tens of thousands. I cannot speak about Portugal, but in the UK if you lose you will normally have to pay at least some of the winners fees, if you are asked to pay court fees it is normally an indication that you have had no case.
He has failed in overturning his conviction in the torture case, he still has a libel trial case, and an assault case coming up. I also believe he is being chased by the taxman over unpaid taxes and debts. He won his appeal on the book ban, but that was not a decision based on its factuality, just his right to expression, but this is not an defence in libel trials so he could still lose his libel trial.
As far as I am aware the book is not banned in the UK, but it is up to sellers and publishers if they want to help publish and sell it. In the UK publishers and sellers can be held liable for libelous material, and would lose out of the book was found to be libelous and then banned. Also the book ban trial was not a libel trial, so it does not mean if it is ruled the book is libelous the book cannot then be banned. But the court could not maing a ruling then based on the factuality of the book as it was not a libel trial.

Sabot
07-18-2012, 07:57 AM
Absolutely correct, brit1981. Lifting the ban on the book had nothing to do with Libel. That still has to be proven.

BritsKate
07-18-2012, 08:53 AM
I think a "good" comparison is poor little Sophie Hook, who was abducted and murdered in 1995.
She had been sleeping the garden of her uncle's home with her cousins (maybe siblings), and the next morning was found missing. The other children did not hear anything, and the garden was fairly well enclosed. sadly Sophie was found murdered. A man had overheard the children talking about their plans, and crept into the garden at night and taken Sophie, murdered her, and dumped her body on the local beach. It appeared he had been spying on the garden, and listened in to conversations. I wonder how the case would have turned out had she never been found.
No "good" example, I understand. Sophie Hook is very similar to many other sexually motivated crimes by strangers. In many cases the perpetrator who abducts from the home is not heard by siblings, parents, and sometimes isn't even alerted to by dogs.

However, again, Sophie is much older than Maddie - as is typical for sexually motivated child homicides. However, sadly, stranger to victim homicides are far rarer for children. Most often children are murdered by those entrusted to protect them.

According to Home Office statistics of 2000-2001 parents were the principal suspects in 78% of child homicides. :(

brit1981
07-18-2012, 09:59 AM
In this case I do not think the exact age of sophie was so important (she was seven), so much as the fact she was sleeping nearest the tent door so could be taken easily. According to reports the murderer had claime dhe wanted to kill a four or five year old (what sort of a grown adult has fantasies of hurting a little child).
Whilst stranger abductions are unusual, it is not unusual for someone this young or younger to be attacked (a few years ago a three year old was grabbed from her home and attacked). I suspect the fact they are fewer cases of these ages is simply because they are fewer opportunities to attack children this age if you are a strangers. But a woman in the UK was convicted of sexually abusing several children of this age who wer ein her care at a nursery, so it appears that children of this age are a target for peadophiles.
The reason I thought sophie was similar to madeleine was because she was sleepign away from her parents, and if she had never been found there would have been the same questions raised (but maybe not so much as this was before the internet was popular). Also, the fact that the guy was spying on the famiy and planned the abduction based on opportunity fits with the abduction theory of Madeleine. She was staying in the most secluded flat, her family made no secret of the fact they left her alone and checked every so often, there was a note about this at the tapas restuarant, it would not have been hard for someone to watch for the parents to do a check, go in grab Madeleine and be gone.

The british papers are talking about a little girl who wandered from her own home a few days ago. She was found safe and well playing in a garden a few streets away ninty minutes later, but in those ninty minutes the police were going through the streets in cars, searching private gardens, and had a helicopter looking for her. Its a shame the same was not done for Madeleine.

dotr
07-18-2012, 02:09 PM
I did not realize that many posts compared EPatz case to this one. Obviously the cases are quite different, other than missing a body, dead or alive. I have failed to make my point, which is that if a case is kept in the news eventually/hopefully someone's conscience will cause them to tell what they know about a crime. In the EP case doing that worked and maybe it will again for MM.

badhorsie
07-18-2012, 02:39 PM
here is a murder case of an australian woman in the algarve in 2008. Apparently the pm said she had been killed with multiple blows with an axe, but the PJ said it was suicide. ccording to the report she live din an area where there was drug and child traffiking to north africa, and her family believed she may have seen something. She left a note saying she was going away, she did not now how things would wor out and asking for forgiveness. The PJ said this was a suicide note, but her family do not believe it, and the PM said she was killed by mutilple blows with an axe and had defnesive wounds.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/jacinta-rees-murdered-covered-up-by-portugal-police/story-e6frf92f-1225942731759

As for Amaral,
he has never been cleared of torture, and his criminal conviction still stands. he has lost his case in the criminal courts now, and has been ordered to pay not only the defence costs, but those of the court too. Something which can easily run up into tens of thousands. I cannot speak about Portugal, but in the UK if you lose you will normally have to pay at least some of the winners fees, if you are asked to pay court fees it is normally an indication that you have had no case.
He has failed in overturning his conviction in the torture case, he still has a libel trial case, and an assault case coming up. I also believe he is being chased by the taxman over unpaid taxes and debts. He won his appeal on the book ban, but that was not a decision based on its factuality, just his right to expression, but this is not an defence in libel trials so he could still lose his libel trial.
As far as I am aware the book is not banned in the UK, but it is up to sellers and publishers if they want to help publish and sell it. In the UK publishers and sellers can be held liable for libelous material, and would lose out of the book was found to be libelous and then banned. Also the book ban trial was not a libel trial, so it does not mean if it is ruled the book is libelous the book cannot then be banned. But the court could not maing a ruling then based on the factuality of the book as it was not a libel trial.

BBM are you absolutely sure about this? I would like to see a MSM link about this current case- preferably in English

brit1981
07-18-2012, 03:23 PM
http://www.jn.pt/PaginaInicial/Seguranca/Interior.aspx?content_id=2670936&page=-1

English translation (found on internet I cannot verify the accuracy apart from first sentence)

The criminal court acquitted him of Faro, this Tuesday Aragão Correia, a lawyer for Leonor Cipriano - mother of missing girl in the Algarve in 2004 - and Professor António Pedro Dores, of defaming former Inspector of Judicial Police Gonçalo Amaral.

Aragão Correia and president of the Association Against Exclusion for Development (ACED), Antonio Pedro Dores, were accused of defaming the former inspector, who investigated for nearly eight years the disappearance of Jane, daughter of Leonor Cipriano.

In its judgment, the judge said the conditions were not met to consider even the possibility of legal order António Pedro Dores, president of ACED, who spread the "Report on Torture Leonor Cipriano perpetrated by the Judicial Police," the object of the process raised by Gonçalo Amaral.

As for Marcos Aragão Correia, cemented his acquittal in the fulfillment of civic duty to denounce acts of torture that is required every citizen and, on the other hand, has proven that as the lawyer for Leonor Cipriano was convinced that Gonçalo Amaral was the same co-author of the acts of torture against the mother of Joan.

By having knowledge of the acts committed against Leonor Cipriano - whose existence, as an autonomous object of judgment, the court did not question - through a conversation with your client, Aragão Correia became convinced of the veracity of the version heard, which, in the opinion of the court annulled the severity of their publication.

However, based on the testimony he heard - including that of Leonor Cipriano - the court failed to establish that Gonçalo Amaral has witnessed acts of torture or even coordinate the team that practiced.

On the other hand, claimed that Aragão Correia knew someone publicly attributed those acts could constitute matters "offending the honor and dignity," though it has done so in the belief that Eleanor had told the truth.

In 2009, Gonçalo Amaral was sentenced to eighteen months' imprisonment suspended for making false allegations in the trial of former agents and inspectors of the PJ, accused of torture to his mother Joan.

The former inspector considered that the report of the ACED was "damaging the honor and consideration personal and professional" and has decided to lodge a complaint for defamation against Aragão Correia and president of the association.

The Public Ministry (MP) asked for the acquittal of both, claiming that no longer makes sense to talk about defamation, since all the evidence pointed to the existence of torture, despite never having tasted exactly your own.

Heard as a witness in closing arguments of the trial, Leonor described the inspectors put a bag over his head, kicked around the body and hit him with a telephone card and a blunt object.

Reportedly, the attacks continued after they have forced to kneel on two glass ashtrays that she said would have been transported by the Gonçalo Amaral.

Leonor and the missing girl's uncle, João Cipriano, were convicted in November 2004 to 20 years and four months and 19 years and two months imprisonment, respectively, for murder and concealment of a corpse.

On appeal, the sentence of Leonor Cipriano was reduced to 16 years and eight months.

The artcile states that they did not find evidence Amaral was involved in thr torture, but this trial was not about that, so they were unable to find him guilty or not guilty in that respect.

Two courts have found Cipriano was tortured in police custody by unidentified police officers. The court rules that although she had been torture dby the police, because they put a bag over her head they could not identify which individuels actually assaulted her. Amaral received a criminal conviction with a suspended prison term, for falsifying evidence in relation to the torture trial. The 2012 amnesty international report on Portugal mentions this case. he is awaiting a criminal trial for the assault of the mother's brother.

SapphireSteel
07-18-2012, 06:57 PM
http://www.jn.pt/PaginaInicial/Seguranca/Interior.aspx?content_id=2670936&page=-1

English translation (found on internet I cannot verify the accuracy apart from first sentence)

The criminal court acquitted him of Faro, this Tuesday Aragão Correia, a lawyer for Leonor Cipriano - mother of missing girl in the Algarve in 2004 - and Professor António Pedro Dores, of defaming former Inspector of Judicial Police Gonçalo Amaral.

Aragão Correia and president of the Association Against Exclusion for Development (ACED), Antonio Pedro Dores, were accused of defaming the former inspector, who investigated for nearly eight years the disappearance of Jane, daughter of Leonor Cipriano.

In its judgment, the judge said the conditions were not met to consider even the possibility of legal order António Pedro Dores, president of ACED, who spread the "Report on Torture Leonor Cipriano perpetrated by the Judicial Police," the object of the process raised by Gonçalo Amaral.

As for Marcos Aragão Correia, cemented his acquittal in the fulfillment of civic duty to denounce acts of torture that is required every citizen and, on the other hand, has proven that as the lawyer for Leonor Cipriano was convinced that Gonçalo Amaral was the same co-author of the acts of torture against the mother of Joan.

By having knowledge of the acts committed against Leonor Cipriano - whose existence, as an autonomous object of judgment, the court did not question - through a conversation with your client, Aragão Correia became convinced of the veracity of the version heard, which, in the opinion of the court annulled the severity of their publication.

However, based on the testimony he heard - including that of Leonor Cipriano - the court failed to establish that Gonçalo Amaral has witnessed acts of torture or even coordinate the team that practiced.

On the other hand, claimed that Aragão Correia knew someone publicly attributed those acts could constitute matters "offending the honor and dignity," though it has done so in the belief that Eleanor had told the truth.

In 2009, Gonçalo Amaral was sentenced to eighteen months' imprisonment suspended for making false allegations in the trial of former agents and inspectors of the PJ, accused of torture to his mother Joan.

The former inspector considered that the report of the ACED was "damaging the honor and consideration personal and professional" and has decided to lodge a complaint for defamation against Aragão Correia and president of the association.

The Public Ministry (MP) asked for the acquittal of both, claiming that no longer makes sense to talk about defamation, since all the evidence pointed to the existence of torture, despite never having tasted exactly your own.

Heard as a witness in closing arguments of the trial, Leonor described the inspectors put a bag over his head, kicked around the body and hit him with a telephone card and a blunt object.

Reportedly, the attacks continued after they have forced to kneel on two glass ashtrays that she said would have been transported by the Gonçalo Amaral.

Leonor and the missing girl's uncle, João Cipriano, were convicted in November 2004 to 20 years and four months and 19 years and two months imprisonment, respectively, for murder and concealment of a corpse.

On appeal, the sentence of Leonor Cipriano was reduced to 16 years and eight months.

The artcile states that they did not find evidence Amaral was involved in thr torture, but this trial was not about that, so they were unable to find him guilty or not guilty in that respect.

Two courts have found Cipriano was tortured in police custody by unidentified police officers. The court rules that although she had been torture dby the police, because they put a bag over her head they could not identify which individuels actually assaulted her. Amaral received a criminal conviction with a suspended prison term, for falsifying evidence in relation to the torture trial. The 2012 amnesty international report on Portugal mentions this case. he is awaiting a criminal trial for the assault of the mother's brother.

You are aware that this sort of accusation is a hazard of the job for Police Detectives, right?

Soon you'll be accusing Amaral of abducting Madeleine.

brit1981
07-19-2012, 05:14 AM
he was not just accused, he recived a criminal conviction for falsifying evidence that made it look like she was not tortured. Two courts ruled she was tortured by the police, and that amaral at the very least knew about it. The courts rules they could not identify the cowards as they put a bag over the woman's head.

Amaral was accused of being directlt involve din torture, and took his accusers to criminal court for libel. he lost.

Amaral is awaiting a criminal trial for assault, a civil case for libel, and is in troubel with the taxman.

His former co-accused, is now facing criminal charges for blackmail.

Sabot,
Is it true that Cipriano's lawyer is taking her case to the UN?

brit1981
07-19-2012, 05:49 AM
Take it to a Court of Law. And then let's see how far you get.

Oh Sorry, I forgot. The whole World is IN IT. Absolutely everyone is covering for a couple of middle class Doctors who must have some horrendous secret that would bring down The Governments of several Countries.
Is this what you believe?

Now missing people are part of the conspiracy! A group of individuels has written an open letter to missing people, claiming that some people think the children on their site are not really missing and they just seek donations to pay high wages. They have demanded the kate mccann is removed as ambassador, and that they remove madeleine from the missing children pages. They say if their requirements are not met they will take action, and they will have the police investigate them.
There is also a petion on one of their twitter accoutns trying to get the police investigation closed down. Why would a bunch of grown adults try to stop thepolice looking for a missing child, or finding out what happened to them. madeleine has not been declared dead therefore he has the same rights as any other EU citizen and there is a legal obligation to do their best to find her.

Going bac to missing people, by claiming they will get the police to investigate them this means one of two things 1) they have reason to suspect missing people of a crime, and instead of telling the police they are using it to coerce missing people or 2) they do not have any knowledge of a crime, and are threatening to go to the police and demand an investigation based on nothing - which is wasting police time and a crime.

Sabot
07-19-2012, 12:42 PM
he was not just accused, he recived a criminal conviction for falsifying evidence that made it look like she was not tortured. Two courts ruled she was tortured by the police, and that amaral at the very least knew about it. The courts rules they could not identify the cowards as they put a bag over the woman's head.

Amaral was accused of being directlt involve din torture, and took his accusers to criminal court for libel. he lost.

Amaral is awaiting a criminal trial for assault, a civil case for libel, and is in troubel with the taxman.

His former co-accused, is now facing criminal charges for blackmail.

Sabot,
Is it true that Cipriano's lawyer is taking her case to the UN?

It has already been lodged by Leonor Cipriano's Lawyer, but these things take some time.
However, it has now been formally accepted by The Portuguese State on three separate occasions, so I don't understand why Portugal don't release her and pay her. The Trial itself was a farce beyond belief.
No Body. No Forensics. No Motive. And No Witnesses. Just the word of a bunch of thugs who beat a Confession out of a defenceless woman, and threatened her brother with the same treatment if he didn't confess.

brit1981
07-19-2012, 01:14 PM
I do not understand why the ECHR has not got involved, it was illegal to use anything she said to the police against her because the courts ruled she was tortured, and that breaks the law in that she had a right to a fair trial. remember when the UK recently refused to extradite a terror suspect because the ECHR ruled there was a chance his trial might use evidence which was gathered by torture and that trespassed upon his right to a fair trial.
Her lawyer should lodge a case everywhere he can think of, especially now he has won the libel case.

No wonder the PJ officers who tortured Cipriano, and/or watched and thought this was acceptable were incensed with kate McCann. leonora cipriano was all on her own, kate was with a translator, a lawyer, there were embassy officials on the scene, british family liason officers, plus the world's media who would certainly see and photograph with glee if kate had appeared with injuries like leonora was given. They actually had to get a result through police work this time.

Its awful we have two missing little girls, one women killed with multiple blows with an axe declared a suicide, uninvestigated assaults on children, the casa pia case, one officer with a criminal conviction for fabricating evidence who is awaiting trial for libel and assault, another officer facing a criminal conviction for blackmail, and two courts declaring the police tortured a woman, all within a thirty mile area in five years!

SapphireSteel
07-19-2012, 04:27 PM
I do not understand why the ECHR has not got involved, it was illegal to use anything she said to the police against her because the courts ruled she was tortured, and that breaks the law in that she had a right to a fair trial. remember when the UK recently refused to extradite a terror suspect because the ECHR ruled there was a chance his trial might use evidence which was gathered by torture and that trespassed upon his right to a fair trial.
Her lawyer should lodge a case everywhere he can think of, especially now he has won the libel case.

No wonder the PJ officers who tortured Cipriano, and/or watched and thought this was acceptable were incensed with kate McCann. leonora cipriano was all on her own, kate was with a translator, a lawyer, there were embassy officials on the scene, british family liason officers, plus the world's media who would certainly see and photograph with glee if kate had appeared with injuries like leonora was given. They actually had to get a result through police work this time.

Its awful we have two missing little girls, one women killed with multiple blows with an axe declared a suicide, uninvestigated assaults on children, the casa pia case, one officer with a criminal conviction for fabricating evidence who is awaiting trial for libel and assault, another officer facing a criminal conviction for blackmail, and two courts declaring the police tortured a woman, all within a thirty mile area in five years!

Shocking. But completely off irrelevant.

What has (allegedly) occured in one case has exactly no bearing on Madeleine's disappearance.

The investigating officers did not abduct her.

brit1981
07-19-2012, 05:10 PM
Shocking. But completely off irrelevant.

What has (allegedly) occured in one case has exactly no bearing on Madeleine's disappearance.

The investigating officers did not abduct her.

But that is the point it is not irrelevant. The mother of a missing girl was tortured into a confession, the courts have ruled that. At the time of the madeleine investigation several officers involve din the case, including the lead investigator, were awaiting trial for the torture. Any evidence that there was an abductor in the area weighted the torture trial against them, since it made it more believable that the abductor had also taken Joana. Therefore it can always be argued that the madeleine investigation was going to be bias, even subconsciouly, against the idea of an intruder. Plus it also smacks of general incompetance and corruption at best - would you want these police to investigate a crime you were a victim of. I am not saying all Pj are like this just this bunch , I am sure all countries have similar problems (have you read the british news about the police officer who got a not guilty verdict in a manslaughter trial).

saggymoon
07-19-2012, 08:28 PM
But that is the point it is not irrelevant. The mother of a missing girl was tortured into a confession, the courts have ruled that. At the time of the madeleine investigation several officers involve din the case, including the lead investigator, were awaiting trial for the torture. Any evidence that there was an abductor in the area weighted the torture trial against them, since it made it more believable that the abductor had also taken Joana. Therefore it can always be argued that the madeleine investigation was going to be bias, even subconsciouly, against the idea of an intruder. Plus it also smacks of general incompetance and corruption at best - would you want these police to investigate a crime you were a victim of. I am not saying all Pj are like this just this bunch , I am sure all countries have similar problems (have you read the british news about the police officer who got a not guilty verdict in a manslaughter trial).
No court declared the mother was tortured into any confession, steady on there

The courts ONLY declared she was tortured/beaten, they never said who byand no one ever proved it either, there is no evidence to say she was torturedby the police anywhere, but there is evidence she wasbeaten up by inmates, so there you go

Sabot
07-20-2012, 04:09 AM
No court declared the mother was tortured into any confession, steady on there

The courts ONLY declared she was tortured/beaten, they never said who byand no one ever proved it either, there is no evidence to say she was torturedby the police anywhere, but there is evidence she wasbeaten up by inmates, so there you go

The Court Ruled, at Trial and on Appeal that Leonor Cipriano was Tortured by Elements of The PJ while in their Custody. Goncalo Amaral was Convicted of Falsifying Evidence to Cover Up this Torture, as was another PJ Officer whose name I can't remember at the moment.

SapphireSteel
07-20-2012, 05:23 AM
The Court Ruled, at Trial and on Appeal that Leonor Cipriano was Tortured by Elements of The PJ while in their Custody. Goncalo Amaral was Convicted of Falsifying Evidence to Cover Up this Torture, as was another PJ Officer whose name I can't remember at the moment.

What has this got to do with Madeleine?

rpgman
07-20-2012, 05:44 AM
What has this got to do with Madeleine?

Exactly.


Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2

brit1981
07-20-2012, 06:56 AM
two girls disappeared within three miles and therefore there could be a connection. it is rare to have a child disappear and not be found, yet this happened twice within three years and three miles. The only reason anyone is in prison for Joana's disappearence is because information gained under torture and threats of torture were used in the case which is illegal under EU and international law. If it goes ot the EU or UN it is likely the conviction will be thrown out.
It also demonstrates that the police officer in charge was not suitable criminals tend not t be. Considering much of the case against the mccanns is getting put around by amaral it is worth keeping in mind, that unlike any of the tapas nine, he is a convicted criminal.

Two courts have ruled that Cipriano was tortured at the police station. the court rules it was unidentified police officers that were responsible.

badhorsie
07-20-2012, 08:51 AM
I am trying to find out more about the Mari Luz Cortez case, does anyone have a link? (independent from the various partisan blogs)

What caused the discord between her parents and the McCanns?

brit1981
07-20-2012, 10:26 AM
I am trying to find out more about the Mari Luz Cortez case, does anyone have a link? (independent from the various partisan blogs)

What caused the discord between her parents and the McCanns?

It is difficult to find information on it, at least in English. Every english media report talks about it in relation to madeleine mccann. Unfortuently there is a huge amount of information on blogsites, but non of these look independent, and they clog up the searches. there are soem contradictions, some reports say her death was due to drowning after falling in the killers flat and losing consiousness, leading to him and his sister thinking she was dead and dumping her in a river, whereas other reports say she was suffocated, and had suffered head and rib injuries.
Apparently her killer, a man with previous convictions for paedophilia who lived in the area, laucnched an appeal, but I cannot see any mor einformation about this.
I could not find anything reliable about mari and madeleine's family, other than the mccanns offering sympathy, and their investigators looking into a connection. It is easy to be thrown by the fact it was different countries, but the disappearence were only 120 miles apart so it is easy to see why people thought there might be a connection.

A little boy called Yeremi vargas disappeared from Gran canaria only two months before madeleine Mccann disappeared too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7285038.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7191171.stm

http://www.nerjatoday.com/nerjanews/2011/03/19/santiago-del-valle-sentenced-to-22-years-in-prison/

http://www.costa-news.com/content/view/7183/122/

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_30437.shtml

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_15580.shtml

nursebeeme
07-20-2012, 03:18 PM
What in the heck is going on with all the rude attacking posts around here? This is not part of our terms of service :tos: If you want to dispute a post that is fine but don't attack the poster you are responding to.

dotr
07-21-2012, 12:54 AM
New Image:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/3972556-3x2-340x227.jpg

Madeleine McCann could still be alive: UK police

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-25/madeline-mccann-could-still-be-alive-uk-police/3972542

UK police say it's possible that missing girl Madeleine McCann is alive

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/uk-police-possible-missing-girl-madeleine-mccann-alive-092331957.html


Police issue computer-generated photo of missing Madeleine McCann
UK police still hope to find Madeleine alive as ninth birthday nears




http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Police+issue+computer+generated+photo+missing+Made leine+McCann/6515616/story.html
( Bumping for Madeleine)
"We genuinely believe there is a possibility that she is alive," Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood from Scotland Yard's homicide and serious crime command said.

"And we are currently developing material which we believe represents genuinely new information.

"From the outset, we have approached this review with a completely open mind, placing Madeleine McCann at the heart of everything we do"

SapphireSteel
07-22-2012, 07:52 PM
( Bumping for Madeleine)

"We genuinely believe there is a possibility that she is alive," Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood from Scotland Yard's homicide and serious crime command said.

"And we are currently developing material which we believe represents genuinely new information.

"From the outset, we have approached this review with a completely open mind, placing Madeleine McCann at the heart of everything we do"

Reviewing the case cannot happen soon enough, in my opinion.

However, it is worrying that Redwood has essentially made a statement about nothing. As no one knows what happened to Madeleine, it should go without saying there's a possiblility she is alive.

The IDI's have seized upon this empty comment as somehow supporting their beliefs, where really, it is merely a throw away media-friendly statement of the obvious that should perhaps have been avoided by an investigator of his rank.

:clap:

brit1981
07-22-2012, 09:19 PM
the review has been going on since last year. redwood made a statement about the possibility of her being alive recently, and said it was due to specific pieces of information they had. he made a point of saying this was just one possibility, but that they had information which led them to believe it was possible. As this is a UK review the UK newspapers cannot report leaks like they could do with the portuguese investigation so we do not get told what information this is.

dotr
07-23-2012, 11:02 PM
http://ecpat.net/EI/Publications/Trafficking/Factsheet_Portugal.pdf
"In 2007, Portuguese and British police investigating the abduction of the English toddler Madeleine McCann, who was
kidnapped in Praia da Luz, Portugal, believed that an international child abuse network could have trafficked her. The
British police also provided a list of UK sex offenders that had recently travelled to Portugal.18
This would not be the first time that a child was kidnapped and trafficked in Portugal by a paedophile ring. In 1998,
an 11-year-old Portuguese boy called Rui Pedro Mendonça vanished while walking home from school in the northern
Portuguese town Lousada. A month later, he was sighted with a middle-aged man at Disneyland, in Paris. Three years
later, images of Rui Pedro being sexually abused were reportedly uncovered during an international police operation
that cracked a global paedophile network. More than 200 paedophiles in 13 countries had exchanged more than
750,000 images of thousands of children through a private internet club called Wonderland. Later in 1999, another
Portuguese child was kidnapped and seen with two Italian men in Switzerland. Unfortunately, none of the boys have
ever been found."

dotr
07-24-2012, 09:57 AM
"The government did not provide any specialized training for officials on the identification or prosecution of trafficking offenses"



http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,,CPV,,4fe30cd94b,0.html
"Past reports indicate that boys and girls – some of whom may be foreign – are exploited in prostitution in Santa Maria, Praia, and Mindelo. Sex tourism – at times involving prostituted children – is a growing problem in Cape Verde. In 2010, an Italian national was convicted for the sexual abuse of three minors in commercial sex in Santa Maria on the island of Sal. Children are also used in the commission of crimes within the country, including the forced transport of drugs"

Galbin
07-28-2012, 03:22 PM
I just read about this and I do indeed hope and pray it is her. However, I believe that she has sadly passed on.

dotr
07-30-2012, 03:01 PM
http://missingpersonsnews.com/falsely-reported-sightings-of-ayla-reynolds-and-madeleine-mccann-spark-confusion/
"Falsely-reported sightings of Ayla Reynolds and Madeleine McCann spark confusion"

dotr
08-05-2012, 02:31 PM
New.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/double-life-of-crimes-and-secrets/story-e6frfhqf-1226443376396
" It is the firm belief of some detectives working on the abduction of Madeleine McCann that she was stolen "to order" by an organised gang of child pornographers.

Indeed, investigators hired by the McCanns received an anonymous email suggesting little Madeleine appeared in such a video.

It turned out not to be Madeleine, but there were 13 arrests resulting from the lead that involved "dozens" of children, mostly girls, under 10.

They are all victims of Andy Muirhead and the men who think like him.

And you are right to wonder: had Muirhead encountered an image or video -- remember he had thousands and added to them on a daily basis -- of the missing Madeleine McCann, what would he have done? Would he have called the police?

I doubt it. More likely, he'd have stored it on his hard drive as sneakily as he could and maybe watched it again and again until he had to front up at the ABC studios the next morning"

OneLove
08-06-2012, 08:07 PM
"The government did not provide any specialized training for officials on the identification or prosecution of trafficking offenses"



http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,,CPV,,4fe30cd94b,0.html
"Past reports indicate that boys and girls – some of whom may be foreign – are exploited in prostitution in Santa Maria, Praia, and Mindelo. Sex tourism – at times involving prostituted children – is a growing problem in Cape Verde. In 2010, an Italian national was convicted for the sexual abuse of three minors in commercial sex in Santa Maria on the island of Sal. Children are also used in the commission of crimes within the country, including the forced transport of drugs"

Very sad. And just as sad is that the neglectful and self-centered choices made by the McCanns allowed this to happen to Maddie, if this IS what happened. I do hope their parenting skills and emotions have improved since an unsupervised Maddie disappeared from an unsecured vacation rental. :eek:

Sabot
08-07-2012, 05:53 AM
Abductors and Paedophiles steal children. We might do well to remember that

brit1981
08-07-2012, 07:01 AM
Whenever a child is abducted there is nearly always some choice by the parents that if they had not made would have prevented the abduction. leaving a window open to let some air in, allowing the child to walk to school without an adult, allowing them out to play etc.
nannylistening services are very popular in the EU, the Mccanns friends had used them at another MW resort, so one can understand why it was easy to be lulled into thinking that making your own listening service was OK. But to be honets that is a moot point, someone abducted a child, yet many seem intent on ensuring that the abductor is excused and his conscience salved and the blame put on the mccanns. It is a bit like blaming a rape victim for walking alone at night.

SapphireSteel
08-07-2012, 07:05 AM
Whenever a child is abducted there is nearly always some choice by the parents that if they had not made would have prevented the abduction. leaving a window open to let some air in, allowing the child to walk to school without an adult, allowing them out to play etc.
nannylistening services are very popular in the EU, the Mccanns friends had used them at another MW resort, so one can understand why it was easy to be lulled into thinking that making your own listening service was OK. But to be honets that is a moot point, someone abducted a child, yet many seem intent on ensuring that the abductor is excused and his conscience salved and the blame put on the mccanns. It is a bit like blaming a rape victim for walking alone at night.

Only if the rape victim was a toddler.

brit1981
08-07-2012, 07:19 AM
Only if the rape victim was a toddler.

No blaming the victims because they could have made a different choice to stop a criminal is wrong regardless of the age of the victim.

Oh by the way did you manage to find the sources for your claims about the FSS (you know how it really was not a government owned agency charged with forensic examination and maintaining the dna database but a private company with no legal right to examine DNA and with links to the mccanns), the involvment of at least three governments, the police, ambassadors etc in a cover-up to protect a cardiologist and part time GP from the north of England. I would really be interested to see this proof you said you had, and once you upload it here you do not have to worry about the powers that be destroying it.