Poll: Did Darlie Routier murder her children?

[Casshew]

This case is fascinating and I am glad there is a new forum on it.

I think she did it... what about you? Looking forward to great discussion.

[WindChime]

I believe that Darlie is guilty also and I also believe that Darin has something to do with the murder of their 2 precious boys also. I do believe that she does deserve a new trial due to the first court reporter errors so that the NG'S can't say that justice was denied for Darlie.

[cami]

I believe that Darlie is guilty also and I also believe that Darin has something to do with the murder of their 2 precious boys also. I do believe that she does deserve a new trial due to the first court reporter errors so that the NG'S can't say that justice was denied for Darlie.

Ew, she's already lost that appeal so no new trial due to the transcript errors.

[lisag]

I think she is as guilty as sin !!!
She should be punished to the fullest... those poor boys had no chance.

[WindChime]

:-) Thank you for that info see I knew I was way behind lol Don't get me wrong I believe she is 110% guilty of murdering her precious son's and I also believe Darin played a part in their murders also I just wonder if she will crack when she has her death warrent signed as to the date and time that she will be put to death and spill the beans on Darin.

[AuntieKaren]

Yes, Darlie is guilty. I also think the Aisenbergs had something to do with Sabrina's disappearance. (Sorry--subject change.)
Karen

[cami]

:-) Thank you for that info see I knew I was way behind lol Don't get me wrong I believe she is 110% guilty of murdering her precious son's and I also believe Darin played a part in their murders also I just wonder if she will crack when she has her death warrent signed as to the date and time that she will be put to death and spill the beans on Darin.

Yeah she just lost another appeal so now she has her Federal appeals I believe. A poster on ezboards explained it all on the appeals. We are all starting to wonder now if she is going to implicate Darin when she gets near the needle given what's happened lately. I think Darin wants a divorce and to move on with Drake.

[lisag]

Yes, Darlie is guilty. I also think the Aisenbergs had something to do with Sabrina's disappearance. (Sorry--subject change.)
Karen


I agree!!

[Pepper]

I haven't followed this case like I have the Peterson case, but based on what I have seen on TV, I have reasonable doubt, and would therefore vote NG if I were on the jury. (OT, same with Aisenbergs and Ramseys).

[dasgal]

What types of things bother you, Pepper?

[Pepper]

What types of things bother you, Pepper?I rememer seeing photos of Darlie's bruises and injuries, which seemed too severe to be self-inflicted. I remember hearing that these photos were not shown to the jury, but I don't know why. I heard one or more jurors saying that if they had seen the photos, they would have voted NG. Then there was also something about a bloody sock being found outside, a ways away from the house.

Also, there is lack of motive. Just like in the Ramsey and Aisenberg cases, I don't see a motive when there is still one or more children of the family uninjured. It's not like in the Susan Smith case where she killed both of her children. In each of these 3 cases there are still children left in the family, that weren't targets of the crime.

Like I said, I haven't followed all the information on this case carefully, but based on what I have seen and heard, I think there is reasonable doubt.

[TressaRing28]

I believe that Darlie is guilty also and I also believe that Darin has something to do with the murder of their 2 precious boys also. I do believe that she does deserve a new trial due to the first court reporter errors so that the NG'S can't say that justice was denied for Darlie.



I do agree that darin must have been involved some how... How could he not hear the murder going on.

Tressa

[Jeana (DP)]

I rememer seeing photos of Darlie's bruises and injuries, which seemed too severe to be self-inflicted. I remember hearing that these photos were not shown to the jury, but I don't know why. I heard one or more jurors saying that if they had seen the photos, they would have voted NG. Then there was also something about a bloody sock being found outside, a ways away from the house.

Also, there is lack of motive. Just like in the Ramsey and Aisenberg cases, I don't see a motive when there is still one or more children of the family uninjured. It's not like in the Susan Smith case where she killed both of her children. In each of these 3 cases there are still children left in the family, that weren't targets of the crime.

Like I said, I haven't followed all the information on this case carefully, but based on what I have seen and heard, I think there is reasonable doubt.

Some of us believe that the bruises were NOT self-inflected. As stated on another thread, the photographs of the bruising WERE introduced during the trial.

As for "motive," can you tell us what would suffice as a motive to you? The state is not required to prove a motive.

[Mary456]

"I think she did it... what about you? Looking forward to great discussion."

Why am I still up? Oh yeah, something about a sunrise. It's all coming back...

Cass, I have to tell you that your posts on the Scott Peterson forum made my day, every day. I almost carried my 85 year old Mom up the stairs so she could see Dorothy. What a hoot!

[WindChime]

Welcome to the Darlie Routier forum. Mary yes I believe Darlie murdered her two precious boys also but I also believe that her husband Darin had something to do with it also.

[Casshew]

Cass, I have to tell you that your posts on the Scott Peterson forum made my day, every day.
Thank you very much.. you just made my day!

[Rachael]

I think she did it. I don't see why anyone else would have motive to kill her kids. I read a book about it a few years back.

[4baddogs]

I've been reading the transcripts here for 2 days straight and my eyes are killing me.

Anyway, I go back and forth with this one. I read things and think she did it and then I read things and think she didn't do it. The bruises on her arms and the cut to her neck being so close to her carotid artery really have me questioning things. A couple of other items too, like the sock in the alley. But then there is the knife with the screen material on it and the legal documents that were in the room with the kids, etc., so I'm always on the fence here. And I hate that because I'm a very black or white person. I knew Scott killed Laci, OJ killed Nicole and Ron, and I believe the Ramsey's killed Jon Benet but this case keeps me going back and forth.

If Darin was involved, why hasn't Darlie said that? Or has she and I missed it?

[Jeana (DP)]

Hi and welcome to Websleuths 4baddogs (love that name!!). My opinion about the Darlie/Darin pack is that they both have enough on the other that neither of them will spill what they know for fear the other one will spill what they know.

We know that Darin had been thinking about some illegal insurance fraud scheme that he may or may not have done previously. We also know that he failed the lie detector tests. While the results of Darlie's tests have not been made public, I pretty much think if she had passed, we'd have heard about it before now.

We also know that they both committed perjury on the stand when they claimed that their finances and their marriage were "healthy." They were up to their eyeballs in debt, Darin was bringing in less than ever before and Darlie was stuck at home with three boys (NOT an easy thing to do). We know that they had an argument that night that led to Darlie asking Darin for a separation. We have no way of knowing whether this was a typical thing for Darlie to do since she and Darin both lied on the witness stand. It would have been a good time to say they did it all the time, so we don't put as much emphasis on it, but who am I to tell them what to do?

Anyway, we know that Darin was turned down for the $5,000 loan days before the murders. We also know that if you're not in a financial black hole, this amount of money should have been no problem for them to obtain.

We know that one car and the boat were also broken down. Apparently no money to pay for them either.

Its long been my opinion that we will hear from Darin one day. Now that it looks like Darlie's getting desperate enough to at least be hinting that she's ready to throw him under the bus, he may talk to save his neck. After all, he's already said he wants to help her, but not if it means he has to change places with her. What a man! :confused:

[Goody]

Wow! I get to call you Jeana here instead of DP. That will take some getting used to.

Welp, I finally made it. :)

Here's a thought for you. Not my original though. Picked it up at another forum. What if Darin was just returning from dumping the sock when Waddell pulled up and he had to think of something real quick about why he was outside, so he started yelling that his wife and kids had been stabbed, waking up Gorsuch across the street. If this is probable, then maybe there is no blood going out the back and the gate was closed because no one ever went that way. Do you know if he could have exited via the front door and avoided the back yard altogether to make the sock run?

[Dani_T]

Here's a thought for you. Not my original though. Picked it up at another forum. What if Darin was just returning from dumping the sock when Waddell pulled up and he had to think of something real quick about why he was outside, so he started yelling that his wife and kids had been stabbed, waking up Gorsuch across the street. If this is probable, then maybe there is no blood going out the back and the gate was closed because no one ever went that way. Do you know if he could have exited via the front door and avoided the back yard altogether to make the sock run?

Hey Goody ;)

Not sure that there would have been time for him to do that when you look at the 911 call. According to the transcript (which we all know is no perfect of course) his longest silence before Waddell arrives was just a bit longer than 40 seconds and then we hear him again in the house before Waddell arrives anyway. I'm not even sure he had time to run upstairs, get semi dressed, check Drake and get back downstairs in that time period (although there is, of course, other reasons why I don't believe the running upstairs story anyway) :)

[Mary456]

"What if Darin was just returning from dumping the sock when Waddell pulled up and he had to think of something real quick about why he was outside"

That won't work unless you believe that Waddell and Gorsuch were lying. Both of them said Darin ran out the front door and met Waddell by the fountain. Not trying to rain on your parade, Goody. It's just a thought.

[cami]

Hey Goody ;)

Not sure that there would have been time for him to do that when you look at the 911 call. According to the transcript (which we all know is no perfect of course) his longest silence before Waddell arrives was just a bit longer than 40 seconds and then we hear him again in the house before Waddell arrives anyway. I'm not even sure he had time to run upstairs, get semi dressed, check Drake and get back downstairs in that time period (although there is, of course, other reasons why I don't believe the running upstairs story anyway) :)


Goody, you made it!!! Welcome

[Jeana (DP)]

Wow! I get to call you Jeana here instead of DP. That will take some getting used to.

Welp, I finally made it. :)

Here's a thought for you. Not my original though. Picked it up at another forum. What if Darin was just returning from dumping the sock when Waddell pulled up and he had to think of something real quick about why he was outside, so he started yelling that his wife and kids had been stabbed, waking up Gorsuch across the street. If this is probable, then maybe there is no blood going out the back and the gate was closed because no one ever went that way. Do you know if he could have exited via the front door and avoided the back yard altogether to make the sock run?


It was either that name or "TheOneAndOnlyDP"!!!!! It wouldn't take just two letters!! Anyway, glad you're here!!! Let's get to sleuthing!!

[Shamrock]

Darlie is 100% innocent. I have followed this case very closely from Day One. I believe Darin had something to do with it. After he admitted to speaking with people just THREE DAYS before the killings about hiring someone to burglarize the house for the insurance money, that sent up a huge red flag for me.

[Jeana (DP)]

Darlie is 100% innocent. I have followed this case very closely from Day One. I believe Darin had something to do with it. After he admitted to speaking with people just THREE DAYS before the killings about hiring someone to burglarize the house for the insurance money, that sent up a huge red flag for me.


He Shamrock and welcome to the forum. I look forward to hearing more about your theory!!

[dasgal]

Hi Shamrock. What makes you believe in her innocence?

[lisafremont]

Darlie is 100% innocent. I have followed this case very closely from Day One. I believe Darin had something to do with it...

Shamrock, are you saying that Darin attacked the boys and Darlie? If that is so, it would be reasonable to infer that Darlie knows that he was the assailant. Why would she take the rap for him if she were "100% innocent"? (Is that anything like "stone cold innocent", btw?)

[cami]

Darlie is 100% innocent. I have followed this case very closely from Day One. I believe Darin had something to do with it. After he admitted to speaking with people just THREE DAYS before the killings about hiring someone to burglarize the house for the insurance money, that sent up a huge red flag for me.

Wonder why nothing was stolen during this crime. Money, credit cards and gold jewellery lying right there for the thieves to take but they chose to take the lives of two little boys and nothing else.

His father-in-law "remembers" two years after the crime that Darin had asked him if he knew someone who could burglarize the house for the insurance money. Darin says nothing to the cops and investigators at the time of the murders and Darlie's attack about his alleged burglary scheme!

Darin is lying and so is Darlie. There was no burglary scheme. Darlie is guilty. My opinion only.

[Jeana (DP)]

Shamrock, are you saying that Darin attacked the boys and Darlie? If that is so, it would be reasonable to infer that Darlie knows that he was the assailant. Why would she take the rap for him if she were "100% innocent"? (Is that anything like "stone cold innocent", btw?)


If Darlie is 100% innocent, then it shouldn't have been any problem for her to pass a lie detector test. She did not. She was also given regression therapy, the results of which haven't been made public. Don't you think that Darlie's supporters, who have absolutely no problem creating media attention for Darlie, would be screaming about the results from the rooftops (if the supported their claims of innocence)?

Its very easy to say you believe she's innocent. Its another thing to answer to all of the things that point to her guilt. So far, I haven't seen you (or anyone else) do that!!

[Ike]

I do not know a lot about this case but from what I've heard and read, I am 98% sure that Darlie is guilty and about 2% unsure.

Am I correct in thinking that I heard or read somewhere that the kitchen knife is the one that was used to cut the screen door? If so, that would be the huge clincher for me in believing Darlie's guilt.

[Jeana (DP)]

I do not know a lot about this case but from what I've heard and read, I am 98% sure that Darlie is guilty and about 2% unsure.

Am I correct in thinking that I heard or read somewhere that the kitchen knife is the one that was used to cut the screen door? If so, that would be the huge clincher for me in believing Darlie's guilt.

Yes, one of the knives in the butcher's block was used to cut the screen and another to murder the boys.

[Ike]

Yes, one of the knives in the butcher's block was used to cut the screen and another to murder the boys.

So if the screen door was the point of entry, then how is it reasonable to conclude that an intruder did this? He/She would have had to already be in the house to have gotten the knife and if they were already in the house, there would be no reason to have to cut the screen. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, unless I am confusing my facts.

[Jeana (DP)]

So if the screen door was the point of entry, then how is it reasonable to conclude that an intruder did this? He/She would have had to already be in the house to have gotten the knife and if they were already in the house, there would be no reason to have to cut the screen. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, unless I am confusing my facts.

No, you've got it right. The "intruder(s) also left that way, then they got into the backyard after being chased out of the house and opened a broken gate by lifting it up off the ground and pushing on it and THEN THEY CLOSED IT BEHIND THEM. :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar:

[Dani_T]

So if the screen door was the point of entry, then how is it reasonable to conclude that an intruder did this? He/She would have had to already be in the house to have gotten the knife and if they were already in the house, there would be no reason to have to cut the screen. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, unless I am confusing my facts.

This is the smoking gun for me. However you would be absolutely amazed at the way supporters try to explain this.

Basically there were two microscopic pieces of evidence (fibre glass rod and pigmented rubber debris) found on the bread knife from the block (not the same knife as murder weapon) that were microscopically identical to what was created when you use that same knife to cut the screen.

However, supporters will argue
1) Nobody would use a bread knife to cut a screen- they would use a non-serrated blade (which to me is a nonsensical argument since a bread knife acts like a saw which to me would seem perfect for cutting a screen)
2) Microscopically identical is not good enough and they want tests on the actual make-up of the material ( tests which were attempted prior to trial but failed because there was no enough material) to prove that these two independent pieces of forensic evidence which are identical to the screen evidence just happened to end up on that one knife right next to each other. Some theories go that Darin was using the bread knife to hack away at a computer motherboard or/and Darlie used it to cut through packaging tape :eek:
3) The guy who fingerprinted the window (but who does not testify at all to fingerprinting the knife) picked up these two independent pieces of evidence from the screen and then after a few hours of continuous use the brush (which again we have no evidence was ever used on that knife) just happened to deposit both pieces of evidence on the same bread knife.

To me this is an absolute clincher and yet I remain amazed at the way others try and explain it away. Sometimes I want to :laugh:. Other times I just want to :banghead: or even :slap:

[cami]

This is the smoking gun for me. However you would be absolutely amazed at the way supporters try to explain this.

Basically there were two microscopic pieces of evidence (fibre glass rod and pigmented rubber debris) found on the bread knife from the block (not the same knife as murder weapon) that were microscopically identical to what was created when you use that same knife to cut the screen.

However, supporters will argue
1) Nobody would use a bread knife to cut a screen- they would use a non-serrated blade (which to me is a nonsensical argument since a bread knife acts like a saw which to me would seem perfect for cutting a screen)
2) Microscopically identical is not good enough and they want tests on the actual make-up of the material ( tests which were attempted prior to trial but failed because there was no enough material) to prove that these two independent pieces of forensic evidence which are identical to the screen evidence just happened to end up on that one knife right next to each other. Some theories go that Darin was using the bread knife to hack away at a computer motherboard or/and Darlie used it to cut through packaging tape :eek:
3) The guy who fingerprinted the window (but who does not testify at all to fingerprinting the knife) picked up these two independent pieces of evidence from the screen and then after a few hours of continuous use the brush (which again we have no evidence was ever used on that knife) just happened to deposit both pieces of evidence on the same bread knife.

To me this is an absolute clincher and yet I remain amazed at the way others try and explain it away. Sometimes I want to :laugh:. Other times I just want to :banghead: or even :slap:

So typical of the supporters eh Dani. One who lost total crediblity I believe is the refusal to believe that Darlie says "threw the knife down" in the 911 call. That way he/she/they can just ignore that lack of cast-off blood or any blood that points to the knife being dropped or thrown down by the intruder. I was shocked to say the least. That's how they do it, just refuse to admit she says it even though you can hear it plain as day.

[Dani_T]

So typical of the supporters eh Dani. One who lost total crediblity I believe is the refusal to believe that Darlie says "threw the knife down" in the 911 call. That way he/she/they can just ignore that lack of cast-off blood or any blood that points to the knife being dropped or thrown down by the intruder. I was shocked to say the least. That's how they do it, just refuse to admit she says it even though you can hear it plain as day.

Oh... do you mean "ree in the pee" from Jeff? I had some good long laughs over that one.

But yes, that's what some supporters do I guess- simply ignore evidence or facts. Another example is the conclusion that Darlie simply MUST have gone in the U-room since that blood is there despite her claims she didn't.

[annie mae]

Did Darlie ever take a lie-detector test? Just wondering, I know very little of this case but I am interested as to why so many people think she is guiilty? The evidence pointing to her guilt is that bad huh? Blessing to All

[Jeana (DP)]

Did Darlie ever take a lie-detector test? Just wondering, I know very little of this case but I am interested as to why so many people think she is guiilty? The evidence pointing to her guilt is that bad huh? Blessing to All


She took a lie detector test and she had regression therapy (I believe hypnosis). The results of both of these tests remain a secret. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes to me!!! Had she passed, I'm sure they'd be screaming it from the rooftops!!!

The evidence pointing to her guilt is overwhelming. She's lost several appeals already.

[annie mae]

Absolutely incrediable! If I were innocent why would I want my "tests" to remain private? and stay in the hell-hole she is presently calling home, case closed for me. And to think she actually injured herself? what is up with that. And, I am not so sure her husband dose not know the truth, how could he not.

[Jeana (DP)]

Absolutely incrediable! If I were innocent why would I want my "tests" to remain private? and stay in the hell-hole she is presently calling home, case closed for me. And to think she actually injured herself? what is up with that. And, I am not so sure her husband dose not know the truth, how could he not.


He also failed at least two lie detector tests. So, he's definately not telling the truth about something. He's said that he wants to help her, but not if it means he'll have to change places with her!! LOL I think that he knows exactly what happened that night. I was told by Darlie's mother that she asked for a separation that night and they fought. Then she (Darlie's mother) called me a liar for years and denied it. Recently, Darin swore in an affidavit that they did indeed fight that night and she asked for a separation. My feeling is that she's staying quiet because he knows enough to be sure not only to seal her fate, but could cost all of her support system that she enjoys today. He stays quiet because she knows enough to have him put in prison. If they both decide to talk, I'll be in the front row for that show!!

[Dani_T]

Darlie's hypnosis report is available at www.justicefordarlie.net (or as it has been dubbed 'Just Darlie'!). I'm not sure whether it is complete or not- but it gives you some indication of what happened. Unfortunately the majority of it is spent on everything EXCEPT what Darlie said that night and the types of questions she was asked. Interestingly enough at the end of the report is a mention of a good likelyhood of further regression sessions... which we have never heard about. So why weren't there more? Or were there more and we just haven't been privy to the details (and I wonder why THAT would be the case ;) )

[annie mae]

:) Greetings. I would like to say I am happy that I found Websleuths and today got caught-up in looking at all the Great Pic's people have posted, Christmas especially. When I ran across the post about Sabrina I wondered, what did happen to that case? You never hear anything and what a story, the baby just "poofed"? Also I looked at Darlie's web-site and those pictures of her looks like she is posing for future men in her life, whatever:rolleyes: Anyway, I am wishing you ALL a very Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. Also praying for Peace for ALL the BOY's overthere:)

[WindChime]

Welcome Annie Mae Merry Christmas to you also. If I'm thinking of the came missing Sabrina if I'm not mistaken last year they thought that they had found Sabrina in a midwestern state Ill I think but the DNA proved that the child wasn't Sabrina her family moved from Florida to Maryland or NJ.

[annie mae]

Thank you so much for your reply. I got sooo excited about posting "ALL" I wanted to ask, I put 2 questions in one message, Sabrina not belonging, sorry but appreciate your answer. I DO remember now hoping that Sabrina was found, did not happen, sad. Still is a strange case, parents were strange also. Pray for Peace and Blessings to All

[Candlelight]

My choice, sometimes, which is not listed is-
I think it's more possible that her husband, Darin, stabbed Darlie within an inch of her life as she lay sleeping and killed his two older sons ( the ones with life insurance policies). Slash, slash, stab, stab, stab, stab.

Darile supposed to be dead, the boys: 1 dead, 1 dying.

She was small, the boys were small. They struggled, there was blood everywhere in the living room.

3 were supposed to die, only 2 did.

Why did the smallest and most defenseless member of the family live without a hair on his head being touched? No life insurance? Because he was sleeping upstairs beside the murderer, so Darlie downstairs did it would be more difficult to disprove? I wonder about all of this and more. I'm not accusing Darin, but I think this was the type of rage and physical violence which is common with men who kill. I've been wanting to ask questions and discuss this case with someone for a long time, since I saw her on some TV documentaries, but I didn't know where to go, because it is an old case and it is considered to be solved.

These are just my thoughts after reading court documents and seeing her on TV. I am NOT a Darlie supporter anywhere and I know that some of those people have been really bad to other posters in the past. I am undecided but I have a hard time with the verdict of this case more than any other prominent cases except OJ. I've been afraid to say anything because most women, especially, feel really strongly against her. I'm a woman and I did too.

I thought she was guilty as sin and I wanted her to suffer for what she did until I read more about the case and saw her interviewed on TV a couple of years ago. What I saw was that the police wanted to close the case in a hurry, and they chose the weakest live victim as their suspect, it seems to me. They used part of the birthday gravesite service against Darlie without showing all of it. What they did show shows Darlie to be immature and dumb, but a killer?

I know mothers kill. Usually they are insane, I think, and it's obvious when they are, like the Yates woman. I think Susan Smith may have been insane at the moment she decided to kill herself and her sons. But she got out of the car and left her boys inside the car to die. I'm not sure that makes her sane again, but I think she had enough incest and childhood horrors to cause her to have psyciatric problems like temporary insanity. I think she did start to kill them all, but chickened out. Her sense of guilt was obvious on TV, so she knew she did wrong. I don't see any of that with Darlie on TV. The court system may not think Andrea Yates is or was insane, but I do, not that what I think matters.

I think Darlie is dumb, maybe not as dumb as she used to be, but not the smartest person while on trial and before that. I think both the other possible murderer, most people in LE and the prosecution used her naive nature and pinned the crime on her because it "fit the times" and because she wasn't smart at all at that time about things related to our justice system. I doubt she had ever even voted before or been inside a courtroom until she was charged with murder.

I can see myself in this situation, unless there are a lot of things I don't know about the crime, and I would believe that if I was innocent, the jury would believe me and find me not guilty. I think I'm more with it than Darlie was, but I would tell what I remembered as I grieved and hurt physically. Would it be enough, I wonder? Or too much? If she lied, I can't see the lies. I see confusion, pain, extreme stress from the death of her children and her injuries, but not lies, and maybe not guilt.

I honestly don't think she realized who she struggled with and who almost killed her at the time, nor would she probably have emotionally been able to believe that Darin may have killed their children and sliced her throat open at that time. She was very immature, and easily led. The police took advantage of her confusion, physical and mental trauma.

She was convicted more on her and Darin's lame testimony than anything else, it seems.. Hers was mainly " I don't remember" which I think is true. He was arrogant about their money and their house and lifestyle and lied about their marriage being happy. Later, he has been proven to want illegal acts committed for money ( arson or theft for insurance money, I don't recall which).
I don't think she had adequate legal representation or the photos of her defensive wounds would have been shown in court. The prosecution had them and the defense had the right to discovery.. apparently they either didn't see them, or didn't understand what they were looking at. Bruises and cuts on the backs of her forearms and hands- not caused by her. She was in ICU, she couldn't have made the cuts and bruises in sight of the hospital staff and she was NOT smart enough about crime to have done it the night of the murders or prior. The police chose her as the guilty parent because of the unusual phenomen of mothers killing their children during that time period ( Susan Smith). I think she probably had/has PTSD from being a victim and hearing the screams of her dying chidren and knowing that she was stabbed too. Maybe she was also taking medication or using drugs which caused her to be in a haze. I don't know what any drug tests showed, but I did read that there was pot in their house. I think bits and pieces of what happened may have come back to her. I don't think this is unusual considering how physically and emotionally traumatizing the attacks were.

No woman did this, IMO, regardless of her name, race or location.
It fits the pattern of a man in a blind rage perfectly. There's also the slim chance that Darin hired someone to do it but I think it was a crime of passion, not premeditated. The children were stabbed so many times and so deeply. I also read that Darlie almost died due to where her throat was cut. She wasn't smart enough to know where to cut and where not to cut or how deeply, nor are most of us. Cutting a throat is the universal message to " shut the person up".

Is there any possibility that Darin, big and strong and apparently needing money, did this and let the police pin it on her or helped them in subtle ways come to the conclusion that it was petite, naive Darlie? Or is the right person on death row? I don't know.
I'm sorry this is long. I've wondered about her almost every day since she was on 48 Hours and another show. thanks.

[annie mae]

I enjoyed reading your message and I think there is merit in what you say. I was totally convinced that Darlie did the deed but now I have a "doubt". In my previous messages I have held the verdict as guilty but now I am not sure. I feel Darlie's police case investigation was a sham. I just wonder if we will EVER know the real truth?, I doubt it. But, one thing I am now believing is that Darlie's husband was involved some way. We all know that prison is not a place to live for an amount of time, I shudder to think about it, yuk! So, why, if Darlie did not kill her children, would she want to spend her life behind bars, I don't understand? Is she afraid of Mr. Darlie? Peace and Blessings for us All, annie mae:confused:

[Dani_T]

Hi all,

I feel Darlie's police case investigation was a sham.
A lot of people feel this way but I'm not sure why. Could you perhaps give some examples why you think the investigation was a sham?

I think it's more possible that her husband, Darin, stabbed Darlie within an inch of her life as she lay sleeping and killed his two older sons ( the ones with life insurance policies). Slash, slash, stab, stab, stab, stab.

I agree that Darin is a bit of an enigma in this case. I'm not too sure what I think about his level of involvement. However, I am pretty well convinced that if he had any knife in his hand that night then so did Darlie. There is just no evidence which points to Darin. According to Darlie's vol. statement and testimony there is no way it could have been him.

Darlie claims the intruder just walked away through the kitchen, dropping the knife in the U-room and exiting the garage. If Darin was the intruder why would he do that?? There would have been NO reason for him to exit the house at all, let along exit it through the garage. And how (and why) did Darin then get back into the house, and upstairs and then meet Darlie at the bottom of the stairs less than 1-2 mins later? Why, if Darin was determined to kill his kids and wife did he walk away leaving two of his targets alive?? The intruder must have known someone in that room was alive (which is a problem for an intruder theory) because Damon was speaking according to Darlie, Darlie followed him and then turned on the light. So if it was Darin, then why did he leave her alive?


In terms of the police investigation - the myth perpetrated by Darlie's supporters is that the police decided to pin it on her from the get go. Frankly I find that insulting on behalf of the men and women who had to walk into that house and see Devon's dead body lying on the ground, who had to wade through the blood and examine the horrific murder scene. These are men and women who have committed their lives to bringing about justice... and yet Darlie and her supporters would have us believe that they all conspired to put an innocent, victimised and grieving woman in jail... for what reason?? The investigators have long lists of credentials and training. They collected and examined the evidence- and it pointed to Darlie. Did they make mistakes? Of course they probably did - we all do. But just be aware when you hear Darlie and any of her supporters criticising the police and say they conspired against her because it is nothing more than a distraction from what the evidence says. If there are specific things in the investigation which concern you then please bring them up here so that those of us who have been studying the case for a while might be able to address them... but please don't buy what the Darlie camp says about the investigation hook, line and sinker without actually looking into the investigation itself.

If she lied, I can't see the lies. I see confusion, pain, extreme stress from the death of her children and her injuries, but not lies, and maybe not guilt.
I can't count the number of times Darlie lied. Compare her trial testimony with her voluntary statement, with the affidavits and with her "In Her Own Words" statement. Is it a coincidence that every time she retells the story (even years after the fact) she continues to add little bits and pieces that attempt to miraculously explain away the growing piles of evidence against her.

The sooner we stop arriving at our own personal verdict on the basis of Darlie's projected personality and yes, also on the basis of the silly string video (which I personally have never let sway me one way or the other) the sooner we start looking at the actual evidence (which is exactly what Darlie and her supporters DON'T want you to do) collected by the police and the sooner we start letting that evidence tell it's own story- not the preconceived one we have in our own minds about the way a mother should or shouldn't act.

No woman did this, IMO, regardless of her name, race or location.
It fits the pattern of a man in a blind rage perfectly. There's also the slim chance that Darin hired someone to do it but I think it was a crime of passion, not premeditated.

What about Diane Downs? Or Susan Smith? Or the scores of mothers throughout the world who do murder their children in a crime of passion? It happens. We can't deny it. Is it unusual? Yes. Uncommon? Thank God Yes. Unheard of? Obviously not. Impossible? Of course not.

[stlouischili]

I started looking at this case disregarding both Darlie and Darin's statements, which I do not believe to be reliable, and I began looking at the crime scene as the first outsiders on the scene did. I feel that the reliable information begins where the outsiders arrived to give their accounts. I think the right person was convicted, but I question whether she had an accomplice or not (Darin).

If I remember correctly, Darin's hair was found on the murder weapon. He has failed a polygraph about the crime. Also, I believe that fibers from Darin's tennis shoes were found on the sock-in-the-alley. Darin, I believe, has admitted trying to arrange an insurance scam burglary of his home. The jeans Darin was wearing when outsiders arrived, if I recall correctly, were bloody ostensibly from his efforts to save Devon, and the jeans were never tested.
Darin's behavior after the crimes could be considered strange, and some of his comments were inappropriate.

Not exactly a confession or a crime on videotape, but there is some evidence regarding Darin that is open to interpretation.

[Candlelight]

This is to anyone,

I have to ask, because I don't know-and I know this probably comes across as argumentative when I only ask in sincere wonder and without any rancor or malice but if you could see me ask you, you would know that it is asked sincerely and with concern for the truth.
Why is it within plausibility for some people to believe that Darin acted WITH Darlie but not alone, but that Darlie could have and probably did act alone in the commission of the murders?

Also, is it true that the knife which killed one of the little boys was not ever found anywhere? Could it have been wrapped in the thick tube sock ( lying on the dryer probably) to hastily try to keep the blood from dripping on to the grass and whatever else is behind the house ( very small back yard from what I could see) then flung hard and never really looked for by police because they had one body and one murder weapon? If the 2 murders were committed by one parent in a frenzy, why not use the same knife for both tiny boys? This is sickening to contemplate.. but I read that one murder weapon is missing. I think Darin did something with it outside the house and police didn't look for it vigorously.

Why is there a double standard when the parents were in the house together? How does this differ from the Ramsey case, really? One parent killed, the other either didn't, if one is a RDI like I am.

What points to Darlie that doesn't equally apply to Darin? Again, I am trying to learn so that I don't suffer emotionally for a woman who deserves to die in Texas. I admit it, I suffered because of Carla Tucker's execution for several reasons.

Even smart and innocent people can make very dumb choices to remain silent at times. Maybe in Darlie's case it had to do with custody of Drake or alimony and child support for the two of them? ( She really was shallow). I don't think the guilty parent thought that their intruder theory wouldn't hold up. Neither did the Ramseys, but 80% of respondants in a recent poll on Foxnews.com still believe one parent killed her. Despite the latest TV lies.

Darlie's bloody footprints are on the kitchen floor because she called 911 from there, right? Also, she bled like crazy all over the kitchen counter and onto the floor. If she was trying to commit suicide with the slashed throat as some have said, then why didn't she impale herself on the knife at the counter before the police arrived? If she could stab the viseral organs of her children and slash her own throat, why not finish the job when she didn't die? Anticipating the next question- if Darin did it, why didn't he kill her- my answer is that she called 911 as soon as she was conscious and while he was possibly changing shoes or disposing of one knife.

I think she was hurt very severely. I looked at old photos of her today all through her life and her life with Darin and each son, and she seemed .. well, vain.
Bleached platinum blonde " big hair" when her natural color is black hair, tons and tons of makeup and jewelry, the year round tan.. She was at 26, but acted worse than I did at 20 in college in the early 80's, not after I was a mother in the late 80' The point is- Would a person who by all documentation was very vain about her appearance slash her neck, leaving a big long scar, if she survived, that is, and WHY? It takes a lot of courage to stick one's own finger for diabetic checks at first. I can't imagine her having any strength to look death in the face and do something as painful as slash her throat. I try but it doesn't ever make any sense.

What did Darlie have to gain by killing her sons and almost killing herself? or even possibly killing herself? Drake, the baby ( I do remember which D he is because it is a duck's name) was the child who would have taken up most of her time, but he was the one not touched. His little crib by their bed is precious. He wasn't stuffed into one of their many bedrooms. He was watched over, just like I think the older two boys were when they were babies. I think that shoots down the over-stressed mother and soon to be separated wife going nuts... Babies of Drake's age are more stressful to mothers than the two older boys asleep in the family room. They were pre-school and almost kindergarten age.

Also, they were asleep on large pillows. Why not just smother them? Mothers do not usually use violent methods of killing. Fathers and husbands do.

I also wondered what kind of man lets his badly hemorhaging wife try to talk to 911 and get help? One boy was dead, the other in death throes from pulmonary hemorrhage and respiratory failure. I don't think Darin did much of anything to try to revive him although the documents say that he used more than 22 towels to try to clean up the blood as the chidren bled and one died on their rugs and carpets.
I know that I, and probably most posters here, love their pets more than one of those parents loved their children and their spouse that night.
If my pets are injured and bleed, vomit, etc on the carpet, I am concerned with the pet, not the cleanliness of the carpet. 22 towels are enough towels to cover 5 times the size of the stab wounds and the small torso of the bleeding and dying child. Where did the 22 towels come from? Upstairs or the laundry room? (Assuming that their guest baths are like ours- the bathroom is decorated for looks, with two sets of decorator bath sheets, hand towels, matching shower curtains, throw rugs, wastecans, etc,etc. Nothing more is stocked there unless company is expected.

Why can't people believe that Darlie was MISLED to make heri statements, possibly by Darin and the attorney he hired to defend Darlie? She was as naive as a kid. She was apparently treated like a kid by Darin.. but Darin was and is an overweight, young, healthy man. He had planned arson AND a burglary for money. He has admitted this, and I don't think it was to " save Darlie" that he told the truth. A credible source came forward. A source, which if the police wanted to, could have charged with conspiracy to commit arson and or burglary.

I read on an update site ( NOT Darlie's family site run by Darlie Kee or her husband) that Darlie and counsel are petitioning to have Darin's jeans tested for blood from the son who was obviously dead when Darin says he came downstairs. ( I am sorry but I never remember which boy is which name). Some days, I don't even remember my name,. :)

Also, the photo I saw of her nightshirt looked like the blood from one part was soaked into the rest of it after it was removed from her by it being folded together instead of staying spread out. I could be wrong, but that's the pattern I see.

I don't know what happened in that McMansion, and I sometimes really do doubt that Darlie can put it all together now. I tried to gain access to her hypnotherapy transcripts, but I received a strange Microsoft Passport message with the littlehead on it. I am not a MS Passport user, so I couldn't view the newer documents.

Thanks for reading. It's bedtime for this gal. :)

[Dani_T]

This is to anyone,

I have to ask, because I don't know-and I know this probably comes across as argumentative when I only ask in sincere wonder and without any rancor or malice but if you could see me ask you, you would know that it is asked sincerely and with concern for the truth.
:) I completely understand where you are coming from - and please believe that my answer is written in the same vein :)


Why is it within plausibility for some people to believe that Darin acted WITH Darlie but not alone, but that Darlie could have and probably did act alone in the commission of the murders?
Because if Darlie was completely innocent and her voluntary statement and trial testimony was the truth then Darin couldn't have done it. The story she tell's does not allow for him to have done it (no only in her denial that it could have been him but in the timing, locations etc). Secondly, there is just no evidence that links Darin to the crime whereas there is evidence for Darlie. There are just two many questions whose answers make no sense at all if it was Darin doing it alone without an complicity from Darlie.

Also, is it true that the knife which killed one of the little boys was not ever found anywhere?

No - that's not true. It is pure speculation that another knife was involved and there is no evidence to suggest it. There was only one empty slot in the knife block and that was from the butcher's knife. None of the wounds are inconsistent with that butcher's knife. Darlie supporters will tell you there was a second knife because it is one of the last straws they have to grasp- but there is NO evidence that a third knife was used in the attacks.

Could it have been wrapped in the thick tube sock ( lying on the dryer probably) to hastily try to keep the blood from dripping on to the grass and whatever else is behind the house ( very small back yard from what I could see) then flung hard and never really looked for by police because they had one body and one murder weapon?
Firstly there was not enough blood on the sock to have been used in that way and secondly the police searched the area thoroughly. And as mentioned above there is of course no evidence for another knife anyway.

If the 2 murders were committed by one parent in a frenzy, why not use the same knife for both tiny boys?

She did use the same knife.

This is sickening to contemplate.. but I read that one murder weapon is missing. I think Darin did something with it outside the house and police didn't look for it vigorously.
Can I ask where you read it?

What points to Darlie that doesn't equally apply to Darin?
No it doesn't. As I mentioned, if Darlie is innocent then the story about an intruder (whom she didn't recognise and claimed was NOT Darin) attacking her and then leaving her (and Damon alive) is true. So what reason would Darin have to walk out through the kitchen, knock a wine glass over, walk through the U-room, drop the knife and then exit the house through the garage? And then HOW did he get back upstairs without Darlie seeing? And how did he get back upstairs and then back downstairs within 1 min or so when Darlie started screaming for him?

Why did he leave Darlie alive? Why did he leave Damon alive? Any intruder would have known someone was alive when he was exiting because Ddamon was vocalising and then the kitchen light was turned on.

There is just no way Darin can be guilty whilst Darlie was 100% innocent. It doesnt gel.

Again, I am trying to learn so that I don't suffer emotionally for a woman who deserves to die in Texas. I admit it, I suffered because of Carla Tucker's execution for several reasons.

I completely understand. Your empathy is a wonderful but I imagine sorrowful thing.

Darlie's bloody footprints are on the kitchen floor because she called 911 from there, right?

Darlie was very obviously around the kitchen sink. Her blood is all over the cabinet and floor. The blood on the floor in front of the sink indicates she stood relatively still there for some period of time. There is also blood inside the cabinet under the sink.

From memory Darlie said she was getting towels from the kitchen whilst on the 911 call. However, it wasn't until she came back into the house after it had been released back to them and saw the sink had been removed for evidence that she mentioned anything about going to the sink to WET the towels. There is no evidence of dilution of the blood on her nightshirt by water. There is however evidence that the kitchen sink had been washed and wiped clean of blood. Darlie now claims the twoels she wet (who knows why she would have wet them) somehow wiped away the blood evidence in the sink.

If she was trying to commit suicide with the slashed throat as some have said, then why didn't she impale herself on the knife at the counter before the police arrived? If she could stab the viseral organs of her children and slash her own throat, why not finish the job when she didn't die?

In my opinion she was never going to commit suicide. In fact I don't even believe she planned on wounding herself that night.

Anticipating the next question- if Darin did it, why didn't he kill her- my answer is that she called 911 as soon as she was conscious and while he was possibly changing shoes or disposing of one knife.

Doesn't fit the timeline to start with but most importantly why didn't he kill her straight out?? Why just injure her and then walk out knowing she was alive??

I think she was hurt very severely.
The doctors testified that if it hadn't been for the neck wound she would have been patched up and sent straight home. Her neck wound, whilst coming close to her artery was described by the doctor who treated her as superficial. She was never in danger of bleeding out of dying from it.

Would a person who by all documentation was very vain about her appearance slash her neck, leaving a big long scar, if she survived, that is, and WHY? It takes a lot of courage to stick one's own finger for diabetic checks at first. I can't imagine her having any strength to look death in the face and do something as painful as slash her throat. I try but it doesn't ever make any sense.
If she is guilty she knew she needed to make it look like she had been seriously injured. What is easier to contemplate? Plunging a knife into your body deep enough to make it look serious whilst trying to avoid your major organs? Or running a knife along your neck and slicing thinly?

If she had to do it quickly and as a last minute alternative (as I believe) I;m not sure that the thought of a scar would occur to her. In any case not long after the murders she and Darin were talking about going to Europe to get the scar removed.

Also, they were asleep on large pillows. Why not just smother them? Mothers do not usually use violent methods of killing. Fathers and husbands do.
Because it needed to look like a home invasion - an attack. Smothering with pillows would have led straight to her or Darin.

I also wondered what kind of man lets his badly hemorhaging wife try to talk to 911 and get help? One boy was dead, the other in death throes from pulmonary hemorrhage and respiratory failure. I don't think Darin did much of anything to try to revive him although the documents say that he used more than 22 towels to try to clean up the blood as the chidren bled and one died on their rugs and carpets.
Darin spent the first 3 mins or so giving aid to Devon (the older son who died first). He claims he was trying to hold the gashes tohether and get him breathing again. Darlie was running around, talking coherently. Sure she was bleeding a lot (though I think Darin claims he didn't even really notice straight out because he was focused on Devon)- but Darin had two dying children on his hand. Darin was also the one who knew CPR- Darlie didn't.

22 towels are enough towels to cover 5 times the size of the stab wounds and the small torso of the bleeding and dying child. Where did the 22 towels come from? Upstairs or the laundry room? (Assuming that their guest baths are like ours- the bathroom is decorated for looks, with two sets of decorator bath sheets, hand towels, matching shower curtains, throw rugs, wastecans, etc,etc. Nothing more is stocked there unless company is expected.

Darlie was the one who was throwing towels all over the place but who didn't get down and help either of her boys. Where they came from is a good question - the tea-towel drawer appears to be full in the photos and there was a pile of laundry on the counter which wasn't copmpletely pulled over. So I'm not sure where they all came from. It could explain the blood in the u-room.

Why can't people believe that Darlie was MISLED to make heri statements, possibly by Darin and the attorney he hired to defend Darlie?

Because her initial statements were made BEFORE she spoke with Darin and her first one on record was certainly made before they spoke to an attorney. Furthermore when you listen to witness of conversations between the two of them after the murders it was Darlie telling Darin what happened- not the other way round.

I don't know what happened in that McMansion, and I sometimes really do doubt that Darlie can put it all together now. I tried to gain access to her hypnotherapy transcripts, but I received a strange Microsoft Passport message with the littlehead on it. I am not a MS Passport user, so I couldn't view the newer documents.

That's wierd- it should be a pdf from memory. There isn't much in it but I will try and summarise for you in the next few days.

Thanks for reading. It's bedtime for this gal. :)
Np- hope my answers were helpful. Others will have more to add! Keep asking questions!!

[annie mae]

:) Hi to All. We have an Amber Alert:( here in Tulsa today and I am hoping by this evening the little guy will be found:) I am going to take the time to read ALL info on the "Darlie" case because I don't think I have all I need to make any decision. But, I must tell you I feel that Candlelight has a great grip on the situation. Her posts make sense and seem to place the blame where it is deserved. Just my thoughts, annie:o

[Candlelight]

I had a nice reply typed, then this BB said I wasn't logged in but I was. It ate my post.

To make things short, I hope the child is found safely in Okla.

About Darlie, I found some photos, which, to me at least, cast doubts about her sincerity and maturity. I thought she seemed sad and determined in her TV interviews and they were what caused me to even look at this solved case. She said she was innocent, she wore a cross and said she had a new deep faith.

I found photos in the gallery at www.justicefordarlie.net in galleries 15 and 16, called Mt View in which she has posed herself to look like a prison pinup calendar girl. I am surprised. I don't think the photos are terribly old because her hair is really long and all black.

We judge many people on their demeanor as much as their words. The Ramseys for instance, and Scott Peterson.
These photos do not advance the cause for wrong imprisonment, IMO.

She was a pretty woman, and still is, but so are many of us and we don't put our photos on the Internet like this. I am rethinking her maturity and sincerity in a big way now.

Thanks for discussing this case with me. I know a lot of thought goes into the posts, and I respect everyone's opinion.

[eve]

This case is fascinating and I am glad there is a new forum on it.

I think she did it... what about you? Looking forward to great discussion.

I agree, another interesting case. I once thought she did it. I am no longer sure. I admit I don't know much more than a couple of tv specials and light reading on this forum have told me. I did read an article by the author of "Precious Angels" - very compelling -- she lays out how she changed her mind about Darlie's guilt after writing a book asserting that she was guilty. I thought that was worth checking into.

The Silly String episode ticked me off. The whole thing was taken out of context and while I personally may not have initiated that type of graveside activity, I think it was dead wrong to be selective about that videotape and only show that portion to the jurors. Also it seems there were quite a few photos not admitted.

I am very suspicious of Darin. I really wonder about motive. Is it well-established that they argued that night? Anyone think he's the one who tweaked? She tried to stop him and got injured, then covered for him because they had a sick co-dependency going or something? Or did he try to hurt Darlie and the kids got in the middle? I have no doubt that mothers kill their kids, we all know of cases but it is so unusual for it to be so bloody and violent. Usually it seems they drown, smother, poison, etc. It just seems so odd to me.

I also question Darlie self-inflicting wounds on her neck like that -- I think it was 2 cm from her carotid? I can't believe she could do that and be sure she'd miss an artery in her neck, plus she seemed pretty vain, why create such a scar? Much easier to stab yourself in the gut, imo. Didn't mean to go on and on, just so many questions.

Eve

[Jeana (DP)]

The Silly String episode ticked me off. The whole thing was taken out of context and while I personally may not have initiated that type of graveside activity, I think it was dead wrong to be selective about that videotape and only show that portion to the jurors. Also it seems there were quite a few photos not admitted.

I am very suspicious of Darin. I really wonder about motive. Is it well-established that they argued that night? Eve

Hi Eve and welcome!!!

I'm not sure what all you've heard about the silly string event. First of all, the part you talk about that they didn't show. Even if the judge denied it being admitted to the trial (which her supporters say is true and I still haven't seen evidence of), why hasn't it been shown on television since? There have been multiple times that her family has been interviewed on television. Why don't they show it? Why isn't that portion of the video available to see on her website? Makes one wonder what they don't want anyone to see.

Darlie is light skinned. She and I have about the same coloring. I don't know about you, but when I've been crying for a few days non-stop, or even if I've just been crying for a few hours (which I believe is what her mother said happened that morning), my eyes are bloodshot. My nose is red and runny. My face is blotchy. How is it possible for a woman who had been crying for HOURS not have one visible sign of having done so? They did show a close up of Darlie's face during that silly string party because I'm sure they wanted to capture the fact that she was smacking on her gum. So, if there was any evidence whatever that she had been crying, I think we would have been able to see it easily.

About the argument/fight that night. Darlie's own mother told me years ago that it happened. Then when I relayed the information, without having told anyone who said it, she called me a liar. Well, low and behold, we now have a signed Affidavit from Darin himself where he confirms that they had an argument that night serious enough that Darlie asked for a separation. Why would Mama Darlie NOT want this information made public?

[eve]

Hi Eve and welcome!!!

I'm not sure what all you've heard about the silly string event. First of all, the part you talk about that they didn't show. Even if the judge denied it being admitted to the trial (which her supporters say is true and I still haven't seen evidence of), why hasn't it been shown on television since? There have been multiple times that her family has been interviewed on television. Why don't they show it? Why isn't that portion of the video available to see on her website? Makes one wonder what they don't want anyone to see.

Darlie is light skinned. She and I have about the same coloring. I don't know about you, but when I've been crying for a few days non-stop, or even if I've just been crying for a few hours (which I believe is what her mother said happened that morning), my eyes are bloodshot. My nose is red and runny. My face is blotchy. How is it possible for a woman who had been crying for HOURS not have one visible sign of having done so? They did show a close up of Darlie's face during that silly string party because I'm sure they wanted to capture the fact that she was smacking on her gum. So, if there was any evidence whatever that she had been crying, I think we would have been able to see it easily.

About the argument/fight that night. Darlie's own mother told me years ago that it happened. Then when I relayed the information, without having told anyone who said it, she called me a liar. Well, low and behold, we now have a signed Affidavit from Darin himself where he confirms that they had an argument that night serious enough that Darlie asked for a separation. Why would Mama Darlie NOT want this information made public?

Great points and I don't disagree with any of them! I also viewed the Silly String tape, and I originally based my negative impression of Darlie on her bubblegum smacking demeanor. It sickened me. However, I have an aversion to information out of context. It can be so skewed. If it's true that she hadn't been crying, I am at a loss. I cry when I even think about anything happening to my children. Even if she were zonked on Xanax, I would think she'd be an emotional mess.

I still just do not get the motive. I know there isn't always one. I just don't get the violent nature of the crime and the wounds on Darlie. I really question the husband's role. The case doesn't gel for me. Did you read the article by that author? What did you think about her turnaround in opinion?

[Jeana (DP)]

Great points and I don't disagree with any of them! I also viewed the Silly String tape, and I originally based my negative impression of Darlie on her bubblegum smacking demeanor. It sickened me. However, I have an aversion to information out of context. It can be so skewed. If it's true that she hadn't been crying, I am at a loss. I cry when I even think about anything happening to my children. Even if she were zonked on Xanax, I would think she'd be an emotional mess.

I still just do not get the motive. I know there isn't always one. I just don't get the violent nature of the crime and the wounds on Darlie. I really question the husband's role. The case doesn't gel for me. Did you read the article by that author? What did you think about her turnaround in opinion?


I completely agree. I cried for her kids, but I don't think she actually cried real tears until she was arrested.

Barbara Davis. . . a complicated question. One of our posters knows more about her than I and would skin me alive if I said anything negative about her. Barbara has had an incredible life. She apparently shot her first (maybe only???) husband. Her son was shot and killed by police in their own home during a drug raid. Apparently, Barbara was obtaining large quantities of GHB because of "insomnia." The police raided the home, her son was cooking breakfast and when the police broke in, apparently he wasn't sure who it was, and since he was armed of course, he was holding a gun and the police shot him. There were quite a few weapons in the house (which isn't unusual - this IS Texas). Anyway, you seem to have a better handle on why she changed her mind than I do. So far, all I've heard is that she denies seeing certain photographs during the trial.

Douglas Mulder, Darlie's trial attorney (who, by the way was voted the BEST CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY IN TEXAS), even admits that the photographs Barbara talks about WERE shown in trial and were admitted into evidence.

I know that Darlie Lynn's mother, "Mama Darlie," got to Barbara Davis. It is, and will remain my opinion, that in Barbara's "delicate mental condition," she was no match for the EXTREMELY strong personality of Mama Darlie.

[eve]

I completely agree. I cried for her kids, but I don't think she actually cried real tears until she was arrested.

Barbara Davis. . . a complicated question. One of our posters knows more about her than I and would skin me alive if I said anything negative about her. Barbara has had an incredible life. She apparently shot her first (maybe only???) husband. Her son was shot and killed by police in their own home during a drug raid. Apparently, Barbara was obtaining large quantities of GHB because of "insomnia." The police raided the home, her son was cooking breakfast and when the police broke in, apparently he wasn't sure who it was, and since he was armed of course, he was holding a gun and the police shot him. There were quite a few weapons in the house (which isn't unusual - this IS Texas). Anyway, you seem to have a better handle on why she changed her mind than I do. So far, all I've heard is that she denies seeing certain photographs during the trial.

Douglas Mulder, Darlie's trial attorney (who, by the way was voted the BEST CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY IN TEXAS), even admits that the photographs Barbara talks about WERE shown in trial and were admitted into evidence.

I know that Darlie Lynn's mother, "Mama Darlie," got to Barbara Davis. It is, and will remain my opinion, that in Barbara's "delicate mental condition," she was no match for the EXTREMELY strong personality of Mama Darlie.

Hi again!

Well apparently another author, Christopher Brown, asked that she review the evidence with an open mind and after doing so, she gradually concluded that there had been a cover-up and manipulation of the evidence to convict Darlie unjustly.

Is there one thing that convinces you of Darlie's guilt? If so, what is it? Or is it just a combination of factors?


Eve

[Jeana (DP)]

Hi again!

Well apparently another author, Christopher Brown, asked that she review the evidence with an open mind and after doing so, she gradually concluded that there had been a cover-up and manipulation of the evidence to convict Darlie unjustly.

Is there one thing that convinces you of Darlie's guilt? If so, what is it? Or is it just a combination of factors?


Eve

Well, I guess one could call Chris Brown an "author." :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
As I said, Barbara is a woman with a lot of personal problems and is easily manipulated. That's my take on it anyway. I wish her nothing but the best - she's been through hell.

There is no "one thing," no "smoking gun," in this case. Its one of those cases where if you stand back and look at everything the prosecution says and compare it to what Darlie says, there's no question that she's guilty.

I'm not sure if you've seen the thread that lists out all of the different versions that Darlie's told about that night. I believe there were 16 of them. Now, I'm not saying what happened was that she had time to think and remembered something else, or something else popped into her mind. NO, she told 16 different versions. How can the "truth" have sooooooo many versions????

Think about how many people it would take from all different walks of life to frame Darlie for these murders. Its staggering. Then try to come up with a reason (just one) why all these people would do that???? Sure, even if we threw in one or two just for the sake of argument. It still wouldnt' work. Either every single person that testified for the prosecution, the doctor, the paramedics, every cop, every detective, every "friend" of the family, every expert - was lying. . . or Darlie is.

Which sounds more plausible? We've seen Darlie's truth - all 16 versions.

[JimPence]

Well, I guess one could call Chris Brown an "author." :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I'm reading MTJD right now and will post a review when I'm finished. The best I can say right now is that a good editor can be a writer's best friend, and Mr. Brown desperately needed the services of a good editor.

Think about how many people it would take from all different walks of life to frame Darlie for these murders. Its staggering. Then try to come up with a reason (just one) why all these people would do that???? Sure, even if we threw in one or two just for the sake of argument. It still wouldnt' work. Either every single person that testified for the prosecution, the doctor, the paramedics, every cop, every detective, every "friend" of the family, every expert - was lying. . . or Darlie is.

Which sounds more plausible? We've seen Darlie's truth - all 16 versions.
Agreed. If Darlie was framed, then so was OJ. (And I don't believe for a moment that OJ was framed.)

Jim

[cami]

I've been reading the transcripts here for 2 days straight and my eyes are killing me.

Anyway, I go back and forth with this one. I read things and think she did it and then I read things and think she didn't do it. The bruises on her arms and the cut to her neck being so close to her carotid artery really have me questioning things. A couple of other items too, like the sock in the alley. But then there is the knife with the screen material on it and the legal documents that were in the room with the kids, etc., so I'm always on the fence here. And I hate that because I'm a very black or white person. I knew Scott killed Laci, OJ killed Nicole and Ron, and I believe the Ramsey's killed Jon Benet but this case keeps me going back and forth.

If Darin was involved, why hasn't Darlie said that? Or has she and I missed it?


I was on the fence too until I saw that Medical Detectives program and the forensics. That was a real eye opener. Then there's her story, it makes no sense. Her lack of injuries where there should be injuries had she fought with someone.

[cami]

I also question Darlie self-inflicting wounds on her neck like that -- I think it was 2 cm from her carotid? I can't believe she could do that and be sure she'd miss an artery in her neck, plus she seemed pretty vain, why create such a scar? Much easier to stab yourself in the gut, imo. Didn't mean to go on and on, just so many questions.



My own personal opinion is if you want to make it look as if you are a victim as well, you'll do anything. Darlie wasn't the first killer to self-injure. Charles Stewart in Boston and Jeff MacDonald at Ft. Bragg come to mind. I also believe she did it cover up the boys blood on her nightshirt.

How do you snip out a piece of a post to quote, please anyone Dani, DP. Thanks.

[Jeana (DP)]

How do you snip out a piece of a post to quote, please anyone Dani, DP. Thanks.

Cami, just hit the quote button below and go up to the top of the box and remove whatever you don't want from the original quote that you're responding to. Make sure you don't delete any of the [ or ] though and you should be ok!

[cami]

Well apparently another author, Christopher Brown, asked that she review the evidence with an open mind and after doing so, she gradually concluded that there had been a cover-up and manipulation of the evidence to convict Darlie unjustly.


Yes and apparently CWB manipulated her as well with those photos of his. She was at the trial, she must have seen and heard the evidence. She says in her book she saw the bruises and then gives a credible explanation for them. How can she then turn around and say she didn't see them until he pointed them out to her.

My own opinion is just that how could anyone ignore that blood on the back of her nightshirt. How did she get the boys blood there.

[cami]

Cami, just hit the quote button below and go up to the top of the box and remove whatever you don't want from the original quote that you're responding to. Make sure you don't delete any of the [ or ] though and you should be ok!


Okay thanks I will try it next time. That's why it didn't work, I did remove the quote brackets.

[Jeana (DP)]

Yes and apparently CWB manipulated her as well with those photos of his. She was at the trial, she must have seen and heard the evidence. She says in her book she saw the bruises and then gives a credible explanation for them. How can she then turn around and say she didn't see them until he pointed them out to her.

My own opinion is just that how could anyone ignore that blood on the back of her nightshirt. How did she get the boys blood there.


Well, she called Chris Brown an "author," so there you go! LOL Just kidding!!! The photos do her in. No question about it. Couple that with the lies they told on the stand and its pretty clear.

[cami]

I still just do not get the motive. I know there isn't always one. I just don't get the violent nature of the crime and the wounds on Darlie. I really question the husband's role. The case doesn't gel for me. Did you read the article by that author? What did you think about her turnaround in opinion?

I don't think any of us get the motive. It is beyond my comprehension that a mother could kill her own children, but we know it has happened and it does happen. There is no motive really when it's domestic homicide. I believe we would need to know the family dynamics and some kind of psychological history on Darlie and Darin and not rely on what their families are telling us. They are hardly unbiased.

I don't know about you but I would be itching to analyze Darlie. If she has ever been subjected to the psychological testing as in the MMPI, The Tat or Rorschach, etc, it's been kept a tight secret. All designed to identify any abnornal psychological conditions such as personality disorders, neurotic behaviours, etc. Her boys were well cared for in the physical sense, well fed, well clothed, but emotionally I believe she was not attached to them.

MOO

[Goody]

Well apparently another author, Christopher Brown, asked that she review the evidence with an open mind and after doing so, she gradually concluded that there had been a cover-up and manipulation of the evidence to convict Darlie unjustly.


Yes and apparently CWB manipulated her as well with those photos of his. She was at the trial, she must have seen and heard the evidence. She says in her book she saw the bruises and then gives a credible explanation for them. How can she then turn around and say she didn't see them until he pointed them out to her.

My own opinion is just that how could anyone ignore that blood on the back of her nightshirt. How did she get the boys blood there.


Well, I admit her change of heart sounds impressive until you read what she had to say in her book, supposedly before she met with CWB and saw the photos of the nasty bruises. Here’s an excerpt. Thought you might want a refresher, Cam.

"When trying a case, prosecutors must struggle to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and make everything fit neatly. Sometimes, despite their best efforts, questions still remain. In this case, the white tube sock left down the alley and Darlie’s unexplainable bruises to her right arm were troublesome. Neither the State nor the defense team seemed to have much of a grasp on either of these pieces of the puzzle. The sock wound up being ignored virtually by both sides. But the horrible bruises covering every inch of Darlie’s right arm were another matter. The State was convinced that Darlie inflicted the injury on herself after she was released from the hospital. The defense team was just as convinced the injury was inflicted by the intruder. After an extensive interview with a Routier family member, who consistently demonstrates integrity and has no reason to lie, I feel certain that Darlie’s arm was injured the night of the murders. Blunt trauma was responsible for solid and massive bruises covering the underside of Darlie’s right arm extending from the wrist all the way to the armpit. I believe the significant blunt trauma was the result of the attack, but it was not caused by any intruder. I believe it was from Darlie’s son, Devon, as he fought to save his life.

Through extensive interviews with close family, friends and neighbors of the Routiers, various experts, review of court testimony, and the DNA blood flow chart I have arrived at how I believe the tragic events unfolded on June 6, 1996." (Precious Angels, C 31, p 306, para 1 & 2)



She then goes on to detail the particulars of her theory.



So…….She not only saw the bruises in full living color, but she describes them in detail and remembers them so vividly she seems to see bruises even where there were none. (Not every inch of Darlie’s right arm was bruised. Nor was she bruised from her right wrist to her armpit. Other than the bruises on her wrists and the cut on her forearm, most of her bruises are from elbow to armpit.) Point is, Babs is either lying :liar: or in the beginning stages of Alzheimers if she can’t recall writing these words after putting so much detail into it.

Changed her mind indeed.

She changed her mind alright, but I don’t think we’ve heard yet the real reason why. But I'm game if she wants to post why. I'd love to hear a valid reason.

Just Goody's humble opinion here.

[cami]

[QUOTE
She changed her mind alright, but I don’t think we’ve heard yet the real reason why. But I'm game if she wants to post why. I'd love to hear a valid reason.[/QUOTE]




Now I thought I had read somewhere that CWB changed her mind by convincing her the bloody fingerprint was Chad P's.

[Goody]

Now I thought I had read somewhere that CWB changed her mind by convincing her the bloody fingerprint was Chad P's.
You mean the one that has a whorl pattern like Darlie's ring finger??? Huh, huh, is that the one, Cami?

Seriously, I have never heard anything about Chad P's fingerprint and BDavis, but surely she wasn't dumb enough to go for spin like that without so much as a smidgeon of proof to back it up? Although if she is going to defect, it be much smarter to defect on that than the bruises that she covered so well in her book. LOL!

[IrishMist]

You mean the one that has a whorl pattern like Darlie's ring finger??? Huh, huh, is that the one, Cami?

Seriously, I have never heard anything about Chad P's fingerprint and BDavis, but surely she wasn't dumb enough to go for spin like that without so much as a smidgeon of proof to back it up? Although if she is going to defect, it be much smarter to defect on that than the bruises that she covered so well in her book. LOL!
I'm curious. WHEN did she change her mind? Was it after meeting/talking to Darlie face-to-face?

[cami]

You mean the one that has a whorl pattern like Darlie's ring finger??? Huh, huh, is that the one, Cami?


Seriously, I have never heard anything about Chad P's fingerprint and BDavis, but surely she wasn't dumb enough to go for spin like that without so much as a smidgeon of proof to back it up? Although if she is going to defect, it be much smarter to defect on that than the bruises that she covered so well in her book. LOL!

Well yeah, that was the only print in question at the time.

I think Dasgal posted it here on websleuths. Do a search and you might find it, but yes I agree it would have had to have been more than just the print. The black car, etc, etc. Anyway, I will see if I can find where I read it.

[Goody]

I'm curious. WHEN did she change her mind? Was it after meeting/talking to Darlie face-to-face?
I don't know, but supposedly after her meeting with CWB, who lives with the Routiers (or did in the years after the trial). I think he also purchased the rights to Darlie Kee's and Darin's story rights, so it doesn't look like the story rights went far from home. I think Darin plans to capitalize on them after Darlie is freed (if ever) or after her death (when she can't talk anymore.)

But back to Barbara Davis, my guess is that she didn't go public with her change of heart until after visiting Darlie, but I have never read anywhere how much visits with Darlie impacted her views on the case.

I am a skeptic and don't believe anything she says. She worked in the Texas legal arena for twenty years or more and isn't likely to just flip flop for petty reasons. Nor is she likely to be manipulated. She attended every day of the trial and there is no new evidence since then. The bruises, the bloody fingerprint, the black car, and the blood cast off on Darlie's shirt was thoroughly discussed at trial. She offers nothing specific in her statement, but makes some pretty bold statements against unnamed Texas authorities. It just doesn't add up if you ask me.

[Goody]

Well yeah, that was the only print in question at the time.

I think Dasgal posted it here on websleuths. Do a search and you might find it, but yes I agree it would have had to have been more than just the print. The black car, etc, etc. Anyway, I will see if I can find where I read it.
I don't know, Fugi. I can sense some hostility toward the state in her statement and I am wondering if she wasn't already starting to experience some legal troubles, maybe thru her son, with authorities and just more willing to believe negative accusations than she was when she was covering the trial. I mean she worked with these people (or some of them, at least) that she is accusing of wrongdoing, conspiracy (or darned close to it), etc. So maybe the change of heart came about after a change of attitude toward old friends. Just a pondering effort here. Nothing concrete.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I have no idea what to think of this case. After visiting the media section of the Justice for Darlie site, I find myself doubting her guilt. Of course, the real problem is, (as it often is), there is so much conflicting "evidence" that you don't really know what to believe.

While watching the videos of her just now, her body language, facial expressions, eye contact & movement, blinking patterns, vocal tones, etc., did not strike me as someone who is lying.

Her 911 call sounds very genuine to me, (especially the part where she is telling her little boy to hold on).

The bruises on her arms ... although not life-threatening are pretty intense. Did her husband do this? In my opinion, if she did get those bruises from a struggle with the attacker, the attacker would have to have had some marks on him as well. Also, when he speaks about his sons, his face lights up. Yet I must say that some other videos of him give me a different feeling but he seems to express such genuine love for those boys when he speaks of them.

If she was so shallow and self-centered that she plotted the murder of these boys so that she could be free, why wouldn't she have gone after the baby as well? I don't know guys ... oftentimes evidence can be skewed in either direction. Something doesn't seem to be adding up for me regarding her guilt and conviction.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I find myself wondering if her husband somehow set this up, (his lack of injuries seems to indicate that he was not directly involved). Maybe he let someone into the house to await the perfect opportunity. He knew she was sleeping on the sofa so he'd be able to tell a "hit man", (so to speak), where she would be. He could have given the perpetrator the knives from the kitchen, knowing it wouldn't add up once the screen was cut with a knife that was originally inside the house, and would therefore implicate Darlie. It would also explain why he allegedly didn't hear anything. How much insurance was on Darlie and the boys?

There have also been rumors of infidelity, (but I don't know how true those are). If those rumors are true, perhaps it was someone with whom Darlie was having an affair ... that maybe she broke it off saying something about her family ... husband & kids at home ... just not right, doesn't want to break up the family, etc. So then the guy comes after the family that stood between them, injures her enough to make her feel some pain but hurts her most by taking away that family, sparing her so she can forever feel that pain. Far-fetched, I know. But like I said, something just doesn't seem right to me.

It seems impossible that this was a random act, someone that didn't know them because it doesn't seem that the perpetrator was there for any reason other than murder.

I definitely find it odd that in this case, (like so many others ... Riley Fox, for instance), that this crime just so happened to occur on the one night when Darlie and the two boys were sleeping in the living room. How many times does a random intruder happen into the homes of unsuspecting victims when they just happen to be right there for the taking? This seems to be a common thread, and I find it very troubling in regards to the possibility that this was simply a random intruder.

In the media section of the Justice for Darlie website, there is a link to a news bit entitled "Routier's Defense Name Suspect". In it, they claim that Darin is the prime suspect in their opinions. They mention the series of questions that he failed during the lie detector test:

1) Were you involved in a crime in your home in June of 1996?
2) Did you, yourself, stab Darlie?
3) Can you name the person who stabbed your son?

Other than question #2, it could imply that someone else did this but at his request.

The news report claims that he did not sleep in his bed that night and that he admitted sneaking back into the house once it was a crime scene. The report also mentions the idea that Darlie was going to leave him, and that he was "obsessed" with her. I was just reading a post yesterday, (probably on the Riley Fox forum), that contained a link to an article about murder at the hands of parents. It was stated that both mothers & fathers view children as the mother's property. It basically stated that women tend to kill their children when they are acting out against themselves ... when they feel like bad parents, unworthy, etc. Fathers, however, tend to murder their children as a way of getting back at the mother, (as in a case where the wife says she is going to leave ... he gets back at her by killing the one thing that is most important to her and that best represents who she is).

I also agree with an earlier post on this forum that the way these murders were committed was much more in line with the methods that men have been known to employ. Not to say it is impossible, but this is typically not a woman's type of crime.

I still won't say one way or the other but when you put all of these things together, it seems somewhat unlikely to me.

[IrishMist]

I also agree with an earlier post on this forum that the way these murders were committed was much more in line with the methods that men have been known to employ. Not to say it is impossible, but this is typically not a woman's type of crime.
Jersey, you made alot of good points, I just wanted to point out that Darlie was the dominant personality in this relationship, (actually, in all of her relationships.) and dominance is typically considered to be a male trait. So I guess I'm saying it wouldn't surprise me to find that she killed them in a "manly" kind of way.

I also think her mental/emotional health was in a bad spot. (beyond bad, but I'm having trouble thinking coherently this morning! :) )
Were these attacks "manly" or RAGE? With her history, I think rage is the best possibility.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I've read a ton about this case but haven't yet come across anything regarding their roles in the relationship so thank you for that information. It defintely helps to put things into a bit more of a context.

You mentioned that with her history, rage is the best possibility. I'm not sure what you mean ... does she have a history of violence or rage? I'm not being a smart a**, I really just don't know what her history is and I think it's probably of vital importance.

[IrishMist]

I've read a ton about this case but haven't yet come across anything regarding their roles in the relationship so thank you for that information. It defintely helps to put things into a bit more of a context.

You mentioned that with her history, rage is the best possibility. I'm not sure what you mean ... does she have a history of violence or rage? I'm not being a smart a**, I really just don't know what her history is and I think it's probably of vital importance.
She has what is commonly referred to as a "histrionic personality".
My memory escapes me (an all too common occurence these days) as to where I read it, but at Darin's graduation party, she claimed she was raped when she left.
Cami, Goody, DaniT, Jeana-- help me out here!

In other words, she is known to lean toward the dramatic, or maybe a better way to put it is that she let her emotions rule, instead of her head.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I know about histrionic personalities all too well. I grew up with one in my household, (guess this is why I went to college for my degree in psych - trying to figure out my own crazy family)! :)

She claimed a rape - I'm assuming that that rape never happened?

I'm starting to question if she might have been one of those personality types like those with Munchhausen (sp?) Syndrome by proxy - the ones that cause their children to be chronically ill for the attention.

[IrishMist]

I know about histrionic personalities all too well. I grew up with one in my household, (guess this is why I went to college for my degree in psych - trying to figure out my own crazy family)! :)

She claimed a rape - I'm assuming that that rape never happened?

I'm starting to question if she might have been one of those personality types like those with Munchhausen (sp?) Syndrome by proxy - the ones that cause their children to be chronically ill for the attention.
Well, isn't that cosmic? I was just thinking that last night! While I don't think she had a history of MS by proxy, I think it's possible at the end. If you have to go to more and more lengths for attention, how far will you actually go?

I'm having trouble putting my thoughts into words this morning. I'll turn it over in my mind, and try to write a better post later!

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Yeah, I think if she had MS by proxy, we SURELY would have heard about it. It's a pretty bizarre "disorder", and not extremely common, so I don't think that would've slipped through the cracks. I just mean that there are probably many disorders and potential actions that come out of the same personality type. So while one person might have MS by proxy, someone else might murder two of their children. Different manifestations of the same personality flaw. Some of the posts I've read this morning remind me of MS by proxy and got me thinking about what her personality has been like over the years.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I have been quite vocal about my doubts regarding Darlie's guilt however there is at least one big sticking point for me.

In the heart of the 911 call, Darlie sounds so genuine especially when telling her son to hold on. But at the beginning of the call, rather than just blurting out her address, she rambles about the intruder, and how she was fighting, and how he ran out. Do you think this is just the ramblings of a hysterical woman or do you think she was already trying to set up her alibi?

From the call, I just don't get the sense that she did this. If she did this, is it possible that she did it and doesn't even realize that she did? If you believe she did this, do you think it was premeditated? I personally feel that she might not have done this but that if she did, she snapped, and doesn't remember. At the very least, I don't at all believe that this was something that she premeditated.

Her injuries, although not life-threatening, are pretty impressive. Where would she have gotten the huge bruises on her arms? I just watched a clip last night with one of the jurors. For the first time I heard that Devon had a wound on his butt. The juror believed that the wound was because Devon was lying on his back and kicking at his attacker. She, (the juror), clearly stated that her belief was that Devon was the one who put all of the bruises and abrasions on his mother's arms. What do you all think about this theory? It does seem quite plausible to me with the possible exception that Devon was only 6 and wasn't wearing any shoes. Would he have had enough strength to cause that kind of bruising?

[cami]

She has what is commonly referred to as a "histrionic personality".
My memory escapes me (an all too common occurence these days) as to where I read it, but at Darin's graduation party, she claimed she was raped when she left.
Cami, Goody, DaniT, Jeana-- help me out here!

In other words, she is known to lean toward the dramatic, or maybe a better way to put it is that she let her emotions rule, instead of her head.

Yes, it was Darin's party for his graduation I believe. When Darlie wanted to leave, Darin didn't and stated he was having a good time. Darlie left but was back shortly saying that someone tried to rape her. She didn't want them to call the police, she just wanted Darin to leave. Darin did as she asked.

I believe she too has narcissistic personality disorder tendencies as well as histrionic. At the core of narcissists is repressed rage. I thinking her coping mechanisms failed that night and that rage surfaced.

[Jeana (DP)]

I have no idea what to think of this case. After visiting the media section of the Justice for Darlie site, I find myself doubting her guilt. Of course, the real problem is, (as it often is), there is so much conflicting "evidence" that you don't really know what to believe.

While watching the videos of her just now, her body language, facial expressions, eye contact & movement, blinking patterns, vocal tones, etc., did not strike me as someone who is lying.

Her 911 call sounds very genuine to me, (especially the part where she is telling her little boy to hold on).

The bruises on her arms ... although not life-threatening are pretty intense. Did her husband do this? In my opinion, if she did get those bruises from a struggle with the attacker, the attacker would have to have had some marks on him as well. Also, when he speaks about his sons, his face lights up. Yet I must say that some other videos of him give me a different feeling but he seems to express such genuine love for those boys when he speaks of them.

If she was so shallow and self-centered that she plotted the murder of these boys so that she could be free, why wouldn't she have gone after the baby as well? I don't know guys ... oftentimes evidence can be skewed in either direction. Something doesn't seem to be adding up for me regarding her guilt and conviction.



I recommend that you read the trial transcripts.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

What should I look for specifically?

[cami]

I have been quite vocal about my doubts regarding Darlie's guilt however there is at least one big sticking point for me.

In the heart of the 911 call, Darlie sounds so genuine especially when telling her son to hold on. But at the beginning of the call, rather than just blurting out her address, she rambles about the intruder, and how she was fighting, and how he ran out. Do you think this is just the ramblings of a hysterical woman or do you think she was already trying to set up her alibi?

From the call, I just don't get the sense that she did this. If she did this, is it possible that she did it and doesn't even realize that she did? If you believe she did this, do you think it was premeditated? I personally feel that she might not have done this but that if she did, she snapped, and doesn't remember. At the very least, I don't at all believe that this was something that she premeditated.

Her injuries, although not life-threatening, are pretty impressive. Where would she have gotten the huge bruises on her arms? I just watched a clip last night with one of the jurors. For the first time I heard that Devon had a wound on his butt. The juror believed that the wound was because Devon was lying on his back and kicking at his attacker. She, (the juror), clearly stated that her belief was that Devon was the one who put all of the bruises and abrasions on his mother's arms. What do you all think about this theory? It does seem quite plausible to me with the possible exception that Devon was only 6 and wasn't wearing any shoes. Would he have had enough strength to cause that kind of bruising?

I felt that way too when I first heard the 911 call. I was shaken, very shaken but after you listen a few times, you get past that to what she is saying. Yes, I believe she's setting it up from the beginning. Think of what she says.

"someone came in, they've broken in.
Operator: "what"
D. "they just stabbed me and my children, my two little boys"
operator: " who, who did"
D. "some one"

Like you said, instead of just giving her address, she reams off all that to the operator.

Although Irishmist doesn't hear her answer the operator I do. I also hear her say things that made me question whether she knew the boys were dead, but then again I hear her say something about Damon to Darin and I just can't quite make it out. The tone of her voice when she says it disturbs me, as well as her going from what appears to be hysterics to saying "someone just walked in here and intenionally did it Darin" I can't shake the anger in her voice when she says this. Her mood apparently changes from hysterics to anger in like nanoseconds. I'm sorry, but I hear guilt all over that call. From her many "we have to find out who did this" to Darin and her "who would do this" over and over again.

No, I don't think she premediatated these murders. I think she snapped. Just my opinion though.

If you could see the Medical Detectives program, it might make a few things clear to you. Like the boys' cast-off blood on the back and front of her nightshirt, to the bloody knife print in the carpet in the murder room. The acoustics of the 911 call to the comparison of the fibre from the screen (Dani's speciality). No, you won't find the MD program on her website. I've seen it recently, Christmas Day in fact, here in Canada. Why would an intruder clean up the kitchen before he left? Doesn't make sense does it. There's a lack of blood where there should be blood.

I hope you are reading the trial transcripts as a balance to that website.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I haven't read much of the trial transcripts yet but I do intend to as you all make extremely good points. I'd also love to see the program you were talking about.

I didn't notice the anger in her voice in the 911 call. I'm going to listen for that again now that you mentioned it.

I agree that the intruder wouldn't clean up before he left but I assumed that any blood in the sink was washed away while she was wetting the towels, (but that is one of the sticking points for me - I don't understand why she would be wetting the towels except to be able to use it as a defense later on regarding the blood that was rinsed from the sink).

Lots & lots of food for thought. I'm going to read some more of the transcripts because there are so many good points mentioned here that would indicate guilt.

The story about the alleged rape ... not wanting to call police and being satisfied that Darin left the party with her ... that's definitely worthy of consideration.

[cami]

I haven't read much of the trial transcripts yet but I do intend to as you all make extremely good points. I'd also love to see the program you were talking about.

I didn't notice the anger in her voice in the 911 call. I'm going to listen for that again now that you mentioned it.

I agree that the intruder wouldn't clean up before he left but I assumed that any blood in the sink was washed away while she was wetting the towels, (but that is one of the sticking points for me - I don't understand why she would be wetting the towels except to be able to use it as a defense later on regarding the blood that was rinsed from the sink).

Lots & lots of food for thought. I'm going to read some more of the transcripts because there are so many good points mentioned here that would indicate guilt.

The story about the alleged rape ... not wanting to call police and being satisfied that Darin left the party with her ... that's definitely worthy of consideration.


Okay that program was called "invisible intruder" Maybe you will find it on your Discovery channel. They used to play it on TLC here in Canada but now that TLC is all decorating programs, they have shifted the line ups to those digital cable networks. I happen to have digital cable and have found Medical Detectives on our Mystery station.

That's my point about the lack of blood where there should be blood. Darlie was bleeding from both arms and her neck. She's at the kitchen sink allegedly wetting towels while on the 911 call. Where's the blood from her bleeding arms? We know she had a towel at her neck to cover that wound so you wouldn't expect that to be dropping blood. Why is there blood on the inside of the cupboard doors under the sink? Also look at those blood drops in front of the sink. It would appear someone stood there not moving around too much.

My opinion only but I think the only towels Darlie was wetting was in an attempt to clean up some of that blood that incriminates her.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I think Medical Detectives might be on Discovery Health Channel which I do have so I'll have to keep an eye out for it. Thanks for the information.

[Jeana (DP)]

What should I look for specifically?


If you don't read the entire transcript, you'll always have questions about certain things. You've got to hear both sides.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I can't seem to find the transcripts ... only bits and pieces here and there. Anyone know where I can find them?

[Jeana (DP)]

I can't seem to find the transcripts ... only bits and pieces here and there. Anyone know where I can find them?


http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/Legal/index.html


All of the transcripts and motions since the trial are here.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Thank goodness ... I've been going crazy trying to locate this! I read that volumes 2 & 27 were missing but 1 is also missing. Where can I go to find those?

Thanks a million, Jeana! :)

[Jeana (DP)]

Thank goodness ... I've been going crazy trying to locate this! I read that volumes 2 & 27 were missing but 1 is also missing. Where can I go to find those?

Thanks a million, Jeana! :)

I have them on disk at home (hopefully I didn't already chunk them.). If you PM me, I'll try to attach them and send them to you via email. IF they're in the disk. I do remember a couple of volumes that were never put out there, but don't think we're missing anything important.

[Dani_T]

I haven't read much of the trial transcripts yet but I do intend to as you all make extremely good points. I'd also love to see the program you were talking about.

I didn't notice the anger in her voice in the 911 call. I'm going to listen for that again now that you mentioned it.

I agree that the intruder wouldn't clean up before he left but I assumed that any blood in the sink was washed away while she was wetting the towels, (but that is one of the sticking points for me - I don't understand why she would be wetting the towels except to be able to use it as a defense later on regarding the blood that was rinsed from the sink).

Lots & lots of food for thought. I'm going to read some more of the transcripts because there are so many good points mentioned here that would indicate guilt.

The story about the alleged rape ... not wanting to call police and being satisfied that Darin left the party with her ... that's definitely worthy of consideration.

Hey Jerseygirl,

My recommendation is you view the transcripts at www.justicefordarlie.net as they have them all indexed and you can view them online (instead of downloading them) and you can also search all the transcripts.

As Cam and Jeana have already mentioned- you really need to look to them as the accurate record of the evidence. Ultimately, there is a lot of about Darlie's behaviour both at and after the murders which I don't think we can make sense of (like the Silly String video for example). BUT it is not that which convicts her in my opinion- it is the physical and forensic evidence which just shows that there was no intruder.

In terms of the wet towels- Darlie didn't mention anything about wetting any of the towels (or being anywhere near the kitchen sink) until she came back to the house after it was released back to them and saw that the sink had been removed. Then all of a sudden she remember wetting the towels. Her nightshirt shows no signs of diluted blood on it which should have been evident if there was enough water to clean the sink of the blood.

Another interesting thing is that there is blood inside the cabinet underneath the kitchen sink where all the cleaning supplies were kept.

[Jeana (DP)]

Hey Jerseygirl,

My recommendation is you view the transcripts at www.justicefordarlie.net as they have them all indexed and you can view them online (instead of downloading them) and you can also search all the transcripts.

As Cam and Jeana have already mentioned- you really need to look to them as the accurate record of the evidence. Ultimately, there is a lot of about Darlie's behaviour both at and after the murders which I don't think we can make sense of (like the Silly String video for example). BUT it is not that which convicts her in my opinion- it is the physical and forensic evidence which just shows that there was no intruder.

In terms of the wet towels- Darlie didn't mention anything about wetting any of the towels (or being anywhere near the kitchen sink) until she came back to the house after it was released back to them and saw that the sink had been removed. Then all of a sudden she remember wetting the towels. Her nightshirt shows no signs of diluted blood on it which should have been evident if there was enough water to clean the sink of the blood.

Another interesting thing is that there is blood inside the cabinet underneath the kitchen sink where all the cleaning supplies were kept.


Good post! If you look at State's Exhibit No. 111-C, it clearly shows an empty baby bottle in sink (right side of the two-sided sink). I would expect that an empty baby bottle would tip over VERY easily if someone were running water and running back and forth taking and bringing towels, etc. State's Exhibit No. 44-C shows the kitchen floor as do Defense Exhibits No. 41, 66, 68 and 69. The blood on the floor is NOT diluted as if ANY water had dripped on top of the blood on this surface.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I also noticed the baby bottle sitting upright, and also found it very odd. The undiluted blood is also odd. But didn't they, indeed, find wet towels on the scene?

Not that this implies her innocence ... the more I read, the more I feel like you might be right about her guilt.

[Jeana (DP)]

I also noticed the baby bottle sitting upright, and also found it very odd. The undiluted blood is also odd. But didn't they, indeed, find wet towels on the scene?

Not that this implies her innocence ... the more I read, the more I feel like you might be right about her guilt.


They did find wet towels. I believe it was done in a very calm manner though and not in a "rush" to save the boys' lives. What I couldn't get past is all of the instances where her family says "yeah, but that doesn't mean she killed her kids." Sure, one, two, maybe even three times, one can say, that's true it doesn't. However, if there were "intruders," in that house, they would have to be the LUCKIEST intruders in the history of crime. I don't have time to list everything out, but the fact that the neighborhood is off the beaten path, they lived on a cul-de-sac, they didn't know who was home; they didn't know where anyone was in the house; they didn't bring their own weapons, they didn't wake up Darin; they didn't break anything in the home (except the wine glass); Darllie didn't scream while she was being beaten and trying to save the lives of her children; they didn't leave any evidence of having been there; etc. How many times in one case can we beliee they/he were/was just lucky? SIXTEEN different versions of the events of that night???? How many versions of the truth are there?

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I can see blacking out or post-traumatic stress but to ever have implied that she slept through the wounds that were inflicted on her, (even if she could have somehow slept through the attacks on her boys), is preposterous. And then the claim that her 5 year-old woke her up by pulling on her sleeve and that's when she felt a man climb off of her, (in one of her versions anyway) ... first of all, she didn't wake up from a full-grown man climbing on top of her but she woke up to a 5 year-old's tug on her shirt? Secondly, if a 5 year-old woke up to a strange man on top of his mother, would he get close enough to pull on her sleeve to wake her? Probably not ... he probably would have screamed or run outside or run upstairs, etc., out of utter fear.

I'm not through all of the reading yet but I can definitely see where you are all coming from.

[Jeana (DP)]

What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I can see blacking out or post-traumatic stress but to ever have implied that she slept through the wounds that were inflicted on her, (even if she could have somehow slept through the attacks on her boys), is preposterous. And then the claim that her 5 year-old woke her up by pulling on her sleeve and that's when she felt a man climb off of her, (in one of her versions anyway) ... first of all, she didn't wake up from a full-grown man climbing on top of her but she woke up to a 5 year-old's tug on her shirt? Secondly, if a 5 year-old woke up to a strange man on top of his mother, would he get close enough to pull on her sleeve to wake her? Probably not ... he probably would have screamed or run outside or run upstairs, etc., out of utter fear.

I'm not through all of the reading yet but I can definitely see where you are all coming from.


I agree. It makes absolutely no sense. Lots of her supporters like to say that none of us would know how we'd react, blah, blah, blah. Maybe I couldn't sit here and tell anyone "exactly" what I'd do, but I think I know myself well enough to know that there would have been no doubt that one hell of a fight took place in my immediate vicinity. Darlie claims that she was a light sleeper (her reason for being down on the couch in the first place. So, I'm at a loss to understand how then she could possibly have slept through any of the events that occurred while she was allegedly asleep. I'm also at a loss to understand why these intruders would attack the boys first and leave the only adult in the room for last. She claims to have been attacked first and claims to have been the "target" of the entire incident. None of us are stupid, so maybe its just me, but I don't see how that could possibly have been true. The number of and the degree of seriousness of the wounds of the boys compared to the relatively minor wounds that Darlie suffered should have been completely reversed had she been the intended target. Its clear from the massacre that the boys suffered (over kill) that they/he did indeed KNOW how to cause death . . . and it had absolutely nothing in common with Darlie's wounds.

[Dani_T]

They did find wet towels.

They did?? I don't remember reading anything about finding wet towels?? Do you remember whose testimony it was in?

[Jeana (DP)]

They did?? I don't remember reading anything about finding wet towels?? Do you remember whose testimony it was in?

No, but I remember the conversation with the Darlies about them putting wet towels and bloody clothing together in an evidence bag. Sorry I can't remember more, but I'm old. :doh:

[Dani_T]

No, but I remember the conversation with the Darlies about them putting wet towels and bloody clothing together in an evidence bag. Sorry I can't remember more, but I'm old. :doh:
I thought it was just that they put two pieces of evidence in one bag and that at least one of them was bloody? I'll as at GAC and see if any of the know it alls ;) over there know :)

[cami]

I thought it was just that they put two pieces of evidence in one bag and that at least one of them was bloody? I'll as at GAC and see if any of the know it alls ;) over there know :)

Chewie would know. And wasn't it because the two articles were touching each other at the crime scene and in some pds it's sop to bag them together.

How could they bag bloody clothing with towels at the crime scene when both Damon and Darlie's clothes were removed at the hospital?

Plus Devon was wearing only underwear and they weren't removed at the crime scene.

I know they like to claim that the boys blood was transferred to Darlie's nightshirt when she and damons clothes were bagged together at the hospital but wouldn't you then have transfer stains and not cast-off from the bloody weapon stains? And that doesn't explain how Devon's blood got there? Yeah we know how they like to explain how his blood did get there, the amazing gusher--well it is Texas after all and everything is bigger in Texas eh. :crazy:

[Dani_T]

I know they like to claim that the boys blood was transferred to Darlie's nightshirt when she and damons clothes were bagged together at the hospital but wouldn't you then have transfer stains and not cast-off from the bloody weapon stains? And that doesn't explain how Devon's blood got there? Yeah we know how they like to explain how his blood did get there, the amazing gusher--well it is Texas after all and everything is bigger in Texas eh.

Yep.

Interesting point you make about the clothing being all removed at the hospital though. Do you know if they make specific claims about what exactly was bagged together?

[Goody]

How could they bag bloody clothing with towels at the crime scene when both Damon and Darlie's clothes were removed at the hospital?

:crazy:
I believe they put two towels together at the scene, and the hospital personnel put Darlie's shirt and Damon's jeans together at the hospital, then turned the bag over to paramedics, who took it to the fire hall, who then took it to police, and then someone left it in a squad car, etc. They didn't like that either. And they complain about the paper bags. They think they should have used plastic bags. However, I have seen paper bags used many times on these crime profile shows in the actual crime scene footage, so I don't think that is a legitimate complaint. The only questionable negative in this to me was that police admitted they'd gotten the bags from a local grocery store. (Somewhere in the testimony but I haven't verified it) That might not have been so wise, yet with nothing specific to show contamination, I am not sure how important it is.

[Goody]

Darlie is 100% innocent. I have followed this case very closely from Day One. I believe Darin had something to do with it. After he admitted to speaking with people just THREE DAYS before the killings about hiring someone to burglarize the house for the insurance money, that sent up a huge red flag for me.
Well, that might depend on who he was talking to about setting up this burglary. Did he look up a thug he knew would do it or who would know someone who would do it, or was he just out and about putting the word out in general?

[indicajane]

I've read both sides of this story since it began. i've watched several television programs on it as well. I am very cynical, and generally believe everyone is guilty, but I'm sorry...I can't come to that conclusion in this case.

I just have seen no evidence that Darlie didn't love her children, or that she would have been better off with them dead. There just isn't a decent enough motive for such a violent murder. She didn't drown them, she didn't poison them, she didn't kill them in a passive manner. She wasn't insane, there wasn't enough life insurance to make it worth it. She left the baby alive, who obviously needed far more care then two older boys. I just can't buy it. Her injuries were too severe for me to be convinced they were self inflicted by a women who was supposedly as vain as Darlie.

I also don't understand why even if she /was/ found guilty that this was a Death Penalty case. Susan Smith didn't get death, and her crime was far more sadistic in my opinion.

[cami]

What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I can see blacking out or post-traumatic stress but to ever have implied that she slept through the wounds that were inflicted on her, (even if she could have somehow slept through the attacks on her boys), is preposterous. And then the claim that her 5 year-old woke her up by pulling on her sleeve and that's when she felt a man climb off of her, (in one of her versions anyway) ... first of all, she didn't wake up from a full-grown man climbing on top of her but she woke up to a 5 year-old's tug on her shirt? Secondly, if a 5 year-old woke up to a strange man on top of his mother, would he get close enough to pull on her sleeve to wake her? Probably not ... he probably would have screamed or run outside or run upstairs, etc., out of utter fear.

I'm not through all of the reading yet but I can definitely see where you are all coming from.

Yes she says Damon woke her up and then he followed her as she followed the intruder. That baby had SIX stab wounds to his upper torso from the back into his lungs and liver and she wants people to believe he walked and talked and saved her life. :rolleyes: :liar:

[Jeana (DP)]

I've read both sides of this story since it began. i've watched several television programs on it as well. I am very cynical, and generally believe everyone is guilty, but I'm sorry...I can't come to that conclusion in this case.

I just have seen no evidence that Darlie didn't love her children, or that she would have been better off with them dead. There just isn't a decent enough motive for such a violent murder. She didn't drown them, she didn't poison them, she didn't kill them in a passive manner. She wasn't insane, there wasn't enough life insurance to make it worth it. She left the baby alive, who obviously needed far more care then two older boys. I just can't buy it. Her injuries were too severe for me to be convinced they were self inflicted by a women who was supposedly as vain as Darlie.

I also don't understand why even if she /was/ found guilty that this was a Death Penalty case. Susan Smith didn't get death, and her crime was far more sadistic in my opinion.

Hi and welcome!! There is absolutely no need for you to apologize for your opinions!!!! We value everyone's opinions here.

I did notice what, to me anyway, seems like a smalll contradiction. In your second paragraph, you say "She didn't drown them, she didn't poison them, she didn't kill them in a passive manner." However, in your last paragraph you say "Susan Smith didn't get death, and her crime was far more sadistic in my opinion." This leads me to think that you're admitting that the manner in which the boys was murdered was worse than drowning, poison or killing them in a passive manner," but then you say that Susan Smith's crime was far more sadistic. Can you be more specific about what you meant? Susan Smith drowned her children, which was FAR more passive and "neat" than the massacre of Devon and Damon. Have you seen the actual crime sceen photos and the autopsy photographs? This was one of those "overkill" situations. There was a great deal of rage behind these killings. Murdering someone with a knife is a "personal" in your face crime.

Also, I'm wondering how you feel about the 16 different versions of the events of that night. I'm wondering how you feel about the lies that Darlie and Darin were confronted with during their testimony. I'm wondering how you feel about the fact that Darlie never shed a tear for the boys.

Thanks in advance for anything you can tell me.

P.S. I think the difference between the juries giving Smith life and Darlie the death penalty was the brutality of the murders of Damon and Devon and the fact that Darlie's in Texas and Smith is not. Texas is pretty tough on people like Darlie.

[indicajane]

I'm sorry, I'm not used to discussing my thoughts about these subjects, everyone thinks I'm crazy for being obsessed with such morbid subjects already :p

I was in South Carolina when the Smith children disappeared, and gave birth to my oldest child on the same morning that Susan Smith finally confessed. I saw all the flyers with the mysterious black man on them at the local mall. (I was in spartanburg, which is just a few miles down the road) I suppose what I meant by sadistic is several differences in the reaction to the deaths of her children as opposed to Darlie's. Susan Smith had those children strapped in their car seats, and she watched that car go into the water. I forget exactly how long they said it would take for the car to finally submerge, let alone fill completely with water, but it was quite a long time. Plenty of time for her to change her mind, to aid them, or even to get aid... Darlie not only was severely injured, but I believe that when the er arrived at the scene one of the boys were still alive. If the boys could have identified her as the attacker, wouldn't she have been totally certain they were dead befor calling for assistance? And I suppose what I meant by passive is that the stabbing WAS overkill. Overkill from what I understand is usually a sign of strong emotions, if Darlie killed those boys in a cold calculated manner in order to achieve some goal...wouldn't she have chosen a less /hands on/ approach? As I said, for vanities sake if nothing else, i can't see her attacking her neck or face....chest maybe, depends on how much she paid for those implants.

[Dani_T]

I just have seen no evidence that Darlie didn't love her children, or that she would have been better off with them dead. There just isn't a decent enough motive for such a violent murder. She didn't drown them, she didn't poison them, she didn't kill them in a passive manner. She wasn't insane, there wasn't enough life insurance to make it worth it. She left the baby alive, who obviously needed far more care then two older boys. I just can't buy it. Her injuries were too severe for me to be convinced they were self inflicted by a women who was supposedly as vain as Darlie.

Hi and welcome,

You're not alone in your thoughts- lots of people come to the case feeling this way (and in fact I did when I first read about the case).

But I have personally come to realise that I couldn't understand why anyone would do this for any reason. Not a mother like Darlie. Or an intruder off the street. Or a hired thug. It just makes no sense to me (which is probably a good thing).

The thing that makes me convinced of her guilty is the fact that the physical evidence tells me it was her. The evidence which incriminates her, the complete lack of evidence of anyone from outside the house doing this, and (to a lesser degree) the continued inconcistencies and elaboration on her stories which make less and less sense.

As much as I would like to believe she couldn't have done it, as much as I can't understand why she could have done it the fact is there is a mountain of evidence which needs to be addressed by anyone who is going to claim she is innocent. Unfortunately it cannot simply be enough to say that you think she loved her kids and had no reason the kill them- look at Diane Downs, Susan Smith, Kathyrn Folbigg. On the surface they all loved their kids as well and had no reason to kill them - but they did. The temptation in this crime is to make it emotional and to base our responses on emotion, because of the very emotive nature of it. But someone killed those boys and the evidence has a big flashing neon arrow pointing right down at Darlie.

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm sorry, I'm not used to discussing my thoughts about these subjects, everyone thinks I'm crazy for being obsessed with such morbid subjects already :p

I was in South Carolina when the Smith children disappeared, and gave birth to my oldest child on the same morning that Susan Smith finally confessed. I saw all the flyers with the mysterious black man on them at the local mall. (I was in spartanburg, which is just a few miles down the road) I suppose what I meant by sadistic is several differences in the reaction to the deaths of her children as opposed to Darlie's. Susan Smith had those children strapped in their car seats, and she watched that car go into the water. I forget exactly how long they said it would take for the car to finally submerge, let alone fill completely with water, but it was quite a long time. Plenty of time for her to change her mind, to aid them, or even to get aid... Darlie not only was severely injured, but I believe that when the er arrived at the scene one of the boys were still alive. If the boys could have identified her as the attacker, wouldn't she have been totally certain they were dead befor calling for assistance? And I suppose what I meant by passive is that the stabbing WAS overkill. Overkill from what I understand is usually a sign of strong emotions, if Darlie killed those boys in a cold calculated manner in order to achieve some goal...wouldn't she have chosen a less /hands on/ approach? As I said, for vanities sake if nothing else, i can't see her attacking her neck or face....chest maybe, depends on how much she paid for those implants.


(1) Darlie was NOT severely injured; (2) she was in a rage when she murdered the boys - not cold and calculated, and I believe her "goal" was to murder the boys - that's it; and (3) her face was not injured.

[Goody]

I just have seen no evidence that Darlie didn't love her children, .
Why do you think that mothers who kill their children don't love them? Many of them are just sending them to God, where they will be happy basking in the joys of heaven, fulling intending to replace them later on when they can make up for the deed. They find children easily replacable, like Diane Downs and Susan Smith. Susan, I believe, loved her children very much. I think most mothers who murder their children love them. The children just get in the way and they can't figure out another way to deal with it. So they find some way to separate themselves emotionally and kill. Most just don't make their kids suffer so much physically as these two did. There seems to be a definite indifference going on here to that.



I also don't understand why even if she /was/ found guilty that this was a Death Penalty case. Susan Smith didn't get death, and her crime was far more sadistic in my opinion.
Susan confessed. Darlie didn't. Darlie could have struck a deal in the early days like Susan did but she apparently thought she could beat the system. The most telling evidence against Darlie is the blood evidence on her shirt and screen fiber on the bread knife, which was not the knife used as a murder weapon.

[Dani_T]

Why do you think that mothers who kill their children don't love them? Many of them are just sending them to God, where they will be happy basking in the joys of heaven, fulling intending to replace them later on when they can make up for the deed. .

Kinda like (parphrasing) "If you knew Devon and Damon you would know they are up in heaven having the biggest party and they wouldn't want us to be sad"

[cami]

Susan Smith had those children strapped in their car seats, and she watched that car go into the water. I forget exactly how long they said it would take for the car to finally submerge, let alone fill completely with water, but it was quite a long time. Plenty of time for her to change her mind, to aid them, or even to get aid... Darlie not only was severely injured, but I believe that when the er arrived at the scene one of the boys were still alive. If the boys could have identified her as the attacker, wouldn't she have been totally certain they were dead befor calling for assistance? And I suppose what I meant by passive is that the stabbing WAS overkill. Overkill from what I understand is usually a sign of strong emotions, if Darlie killed those boys in a cold calculated manner in order to achieve some goal...wouldn't she have chosen a less /hands on/ approach? As I said, for vanities sake if nothing else, i can't see her attacking her neck or face....chest maybe, depends on how much she paid for those implants.

It took six minutes for the car to submerge. She had six minutes to change her mind and help her children.

When the er arrived Damon was gasping for breath and very near death. A traumatized child. I don't think he could have spoken out, "mummy did it". Once the paramedic picked him up, he died in his arms.

Why would a stranger inflict over kill on the children? Why would he give Darlie a few scratches and brutally stab those children?

[jubie]

I had just one little speck of doubt until I read the words in Cami's post that "Damon was gasping for breath and died in the paramedics arms...."

wrong wong wrong! I'd be holding my babies so close and damn NO would they be in someone elses arms for those final moments. I don't give a crap if he was trying to help I'd just march myself into the anbulance with my child in my arms!


How sad.

[Jeana (DP)]

I had just one little speck of doubt until I read the words in Cami's post that "Damon was gasping for breath and died in the paramedics arms...."

wrong wong wrong! I'd be holding my babies so close and damn NO would they be in someone elses arms for those final moments. I don't give a crap if he was trying to help I'd just march myself into the anbulance with my child in my arms!


How sad.


I agree completely!! Officer Walling (the first on scene) testified that he told Darlie several times to tend to the children. She just stood there. How could she stand by and watch the children bleed to death without so much as trying to comfort them, hold them and try and let them know that she was there???????? If she had been covered in their blood from head to toe I would be able to entertain the idea that she was innocent. BUT the only blood of theirs on her is on the back of her shirt?????

[Goody]

Kinda like (parphrasing) "If you knew Devon and Damon you would know they are up in heaven having the biggest party and they wouldn't want us to be sad"
Exactly. How else could one live with such a deed if they couldn't truly convince themselves that it was okay in some way.

[Goody]

I had just one little speck of doubt until I read the words in Cami's post that "Damon was gasping for breath and died in the paramedics arms...."

wrong wong wrong! I'd be holding my babies so close and damn NO would they be in someone elses arms for those final moments. I don't give a crap if he was trying to help I'd just march myself into the anbulance with my child in my arms!


How sad.
One of the big criticisms of Darlie was that she did not hold Damon as he lay injured and dying. In fact, neither parent held neither boy. I think it was because of the criticisms that her story about her care of Damon kept getting bigger, encompassing more actions by her. First, she bent over and placed a towel on his back before going to Devon and Darin, then she stooped to place it there and comfort him, then she knelt down next to him and placed it and spent a little more time with him, and then after the trial she lifted up his shirt and placed the towel under there. Never does she claim though that she wrapped him in her arms. Her descriptions along with everyone else's place her several feet away from him for the majority of the time. She supposedly talks to him, but the physical contact is not there. That shocks most mothers.

[Dani_T]

I agree completely!! Officer Walling (the first on scene) testified that he told Darlie several times to tend to the children. She just stood there.

Just a small correction for the newbies- Officer Waddell was actually first on the scene followewd about 2-3 mins later by Walling. The W's and K's get as confusing as the D's!!!

[cappuccina]

..the elements of the crime meet almost all of the elements that LE looks for in a case of a "staged" familial homicide; the MacDonald case, and the Ramsey case also fall into this category:

"Red Flags Indicating Staging

Crime Classification Manual

Inappropriate items taken from the crime scene if burglary appeared to be the motive. The crime scene was staged to appear as though burglary was a motive (drawers pulled out, contents dumped, etc.) but nothing of value was taken from the scene.

Did the point of entry make sense?

Did the perpetration of this crime pose a high risk to the offender? If an intruder perpetrated this crime, he did so at high risk for detection.

Excessive trauma beyond that necessary to cause death (Overkill)

The offender will often manipulate the victim’s discovery by a neighbor or family member.

The offender often has a few wounds of a non-lethal nature, even though others in the house are not only murdered, but have a large number of wounds. (Overkill)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources for the above information include, but are not limited to:

[i] John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, Allen G. Burgess and Robert K. Ressler Crime Classification Manual (New York. Lexington Books 1992)
[ii] Vernon J. Geberth, Practical Homicide Investigation (New York CRC Press, 1996). Pg. 359
[iii] John E. Douglas, et al, Crime Classification Manual (New York. Lexington Books 1992) Pg. 252-253
[iv] Ibid Pg. 254-255

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

But in the Ramsey case, wasn't JonBenet sexually assaulted?

[Jeana (DP)]

Just a small correction for the newbies- Officer Waddell was actually first on the scene followewd about 2-3 mins later by Walling. The W's and K's get as confusing as the D's!!!


Thanks darlin!!!

[Jeana (DP)]

But in the Ramsey case, wasn't JonBenet sexually assaulted?

Yes. It was a good post, but I personally don't believe in the Ramsey's guilt.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I don't remember many of the details of the case at this point but I do remember feeling 100% convinced that they were both innocent.

[cappuccina]

...LE uses in cases where one family member is murdered by another....In the JBR case, the sexual assualt probably a part of the "staging", and occurred AFTER her mother hit her in the head with the flashlight....

In the DR case, there was no assault, but like JBR, there was definitely "overkill", as well as some of the other signs that point to a family member havong committed the crime, just like in the Jeffrey MacDonald case as well (also some similarities with the Diane Downs case). The sexual assault as a part of the staging, which the perpetrator does to try and point evidence away from themselves or another family member was also found in the Sheppard case, where it was made to look like a sexual assault case, but, was not, in fact, that..

All of this is just my opinion...

[Goody]

But in the Ramsey case, wasn't JonBenet sexually assaulted?
I don't think they have ever proven that one way or the other. There was some activity in the vaginal area, but some say it was part of the staging to make the crime look like sexual assault while others claim it was the act of pedophile who hid in the house until he could have his way with her.

[SUSANSTARR]

Darlie is 100% innocent. I have followed this case very closely from Day One. I believe Darin had something to do with it. After he admitted to speaking with people just THREE DAYS before the killings about hiring someone to burglarize the house for the insurance money, that sent up a huge red flag for me.

Ifeel she is innocent too. I would not have been able to convict on what they had in evidence. I never figured she did the bruising to herself. I think if her husband had anything to do with it, she would have said something by now. If she knew he had done something. I think alot of her problem is she is not likable to other females. I feel she dosn't like them and it shows up in her aditude. This would bleed over into the jury. Not concience, but un concience. I got on this when it frist happened because I used to live in that town many years ago. I had a run in with one of the small store owners . He was creepy!!!!Sorry about the spelling, I have to get ie spell check again.

Susie from Texas

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Thanks for your responses Goody & Cappuccina. Like I said, I don't remember many of the Ramsey details, (and I don't want to go on about it in this forum since this is about the Routiers). But as far as a sexual assault to cover the crime, I am aware that this happens in many instances. However, it was reported widely on the news a few weeks back that DNA was recently found that doesn't match either of the parents. There's a feeling in a lot of people that have spoken on the case since then that this will lift the suspicion from the parents once & for all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that until this new "evidence" is investigated, we don't really know if these cases are similar at all.

Was JonBenet a victim of overkill? I didn't see it as overkill.

[Shamrock]

Ifeel she is innocent too. I would not have been able to convict on what they had in evidence. I never figured she did the bruising to herself. I think if her husband had anything to do with it, she would have said something by now. If she knew he had done something. I think alot of her problem is she is not likable to other females.

I totally agree!! I think she is not likeable to other women and she didn't react and grieve the way people wanted her to.

[Jeana (DP)]

I totally agree!! I think she is not likeable to other women and she didn't react and grieve the way people wanted her to.


Frankly, I live in the area and I must say that I'm not sure how familiar you are with Texas women, but Darlie was a little less than average in the looks department and as far as "finances" go, for that area (the other side of the tracks), they were barely holding their own and were about to lose their home and business. NOT the kind of thing that many of the people I know would be envious of. I don't think any women had any problem with her looks. From what I've heard though, plenty of them thought she was a beotch who thought her chit didn't stink. Maybe that's the reason they didn't like her??????

Moreover, Darlie DID NOT act the way a grieving person would, but then neither did Kevin Fox, Scott Peterson or Cindy Lynch's husband, but you don't seem too have any problems accepting that fact. Why is that?

[Goody]

Thanks for your responses Goody & Cappuccina. Like I said, I don't remember many of the Ramsey details, (and I don't want to go on about it in this forum since this is about the Routiers). But as far as a sexual assault to cover the crime, I am aware that this happens in many instances. However, it was reported widely on the news a few weeks back that DNA was recently found that doesn't match either of the parents. There's a feeling in a lot of people that have spoken on the case since then that this will lift the suspicion from the parents once & for all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that until this new "evidence" is investigated, we don't really know if these cases are similar at all.

Was JonBenet a victim of overkill? I didn't see it as overkill.
My point was only that it has yet to be proven one way or the other. So far there has been no official clearing of the parents or naming even an unknown suspect based on that DNA that I know of. So I am going to wait and see what happens.

[Goody]

I totally agree!! I think she is not likeable to other women and she didn't react and grieve the way people wanted her to.
How can you say that? Darlie had a lot of female friends.....Mercedes, Karen, Basia, and several others their names I've forgotten. She even hosted that girls night out thing once a year, was going on vacation with girlfriends, paid mortgages for girl friends, etc., etc. I think she had more female friends than the average female does, so I don't think you can pin her troubles on other women.

[Goody]

Ifeel she is innocent too. I would not have been able to convict on what they had in evidence.
So what do you do with the blood evidence on her shirt? The fiber evidence on the bread knife? The bloody fingerprint that she can't be ruled out on?


I never figured she did the bruising to herself. I think if her husband had anything to do with it, she would have said something by now. If she knew he had done something.
Just because she didn't do the crime alone doesn't make her innocent. I think she had help, too. I also agree that if she were innocent that she would have told what she knew about Darin, which she hasn't, and she would have gotten her memory back by now. Traumatic amnesia not caused by physical trauma and brain damage is rarely ever permanent and generally comes back within six months. Not only has hers not, but she wants us to buy the Mutt and Jeff black intruder duo that she unearthed in one hypnotic session. It was so successful she decided never to do it again, I guess. No sense in learning everything you can when you are on a roll. LOL!

[Jeana (DP)]

Not only has hers not, but she wants us to buy the Mutt and Jeff black intruder duo that she unearthed in one hypnotic session. It was so successful she decided never to do it again, I guess. No sense in learning everything you can when you are on a roll. LOL!


LOL Which number story was that one Goody, I can't remember! LOL :bang:

[jaeger]

I also question Darlie self-inflicting wounds on her neck like that -- I think it was 2 cm from her carotid? I can't believe she could do that and be sure she'd miss an artery in her neck, plus she seemed pretty vain, why create such a scar?
She was vain, but she was also willing/able to become "the victim" when necessary to get what she wanted (i.e., the "rape" incident). And, as others have pointed out, her face and those expensive boobs remained unscathed. Imagine someone is on top of you, trying to cut your throat, and you are fighting him off - don't you think something below or above the target area (such as your face and chest) is going to get injured in the struggle?

[Goody]

LOL Which number story was that one Goody, I can't remember! LOL :bang:
aahahahahah! Who knows? When you are always in edit, it is hard to keep track of all the changes. I keep waiting for Bear the Hungarian bodybuilder to surface or maybe that 300 pound (Chinese wrestler? ) that Darin cooked up. hahahahaha!

[Goody]

She was vain, but she was also willing/able to become "the victim" when necessary to get what she wanted (i.e., the "rape" incident). And, as others have pointed out, her face and those expensive boobs remained unscathed. Imagine someone is on top of you, trying to cut your throat, and you are fighting him off - don't you think something below or above the target area (such as your face and chest) is going to get injured in the struggle?
Besides, how deep would one have to go to cut the artery on your neck? Not very. That's why her injury was just a slash and not a stab wound like the boys had. It wasn't supposed to go deep enough to hit anything life threatening. Stabbing herself in the torso was just too risky. Too many organs floating around in there. Better to slash the neck area and make it LOOK like she wouldn't have the guts to do such a thing. And that plastic surgeon was just a few dollars away. Peanuts when you go thru money like Darlie did. LOL!

[pennygram]

I haven't followed this case like I have the Peterson case, but based on what I have seen on TV, I have reasonable doubt, and would therefore vote NG if I were on the jury. (OT, same with Aisenbergs and Ramseys). I agree with you on reasonable doubt on Darlie and the Ramseys. Dont know about the A's yet, and I am starting to change my mind about Fatal Vision Jeff after reading Fatal Justice:banghead:

[Yellowrose]

"Many" People Think That Darlie's Deserves A New Trial I know I do. Too much of a "RUSH" to Judgement. As in Don Davis' notes (author). Did she deserve the death penalty? No. Was her trial really fair? Probably not. Then we have another author, Barbara Davis who believes she's totally INNOCENT. Then we have the overzealous prosecutor "Greg Davis" who appears to take this case personally. Never, ever have I've seen any prosecutor act so "nasty and mean" when speaking to the media on any murder case. I live in a state that's pro-death penalty. But I do believe there should be a separate penalty phase for it. Juries just don't find someone guilty within five hours and send them off to Death Row. I guess I don't know much about Texas Law, but something isn't right. I am pro-death penalty, but they better prove their case "Beyond" a reasonable doubt. I hate to go on and on, but I must say no one has written a definitive book yet. All 3 are basically the same. We need a damn good "investigative" author to write the true facts of this case. Maybe one day it will happen. And then again, there may be people here who do no more, perhaps they could of known Darlie personally, or maybe a juror, or maybe even a police officer on the case, it's all good. ;)

[Jeana (DP)]

I hate to go on and on, but I must say no one has written a definitive book yet. All 3 are basically the same. We need a damn good "investigative" author to write the true facts of this case. Maybe one day it will happen. And then again, there may be people here who do no more, perhaps they could of known Darlie personally, or maybe a juror, or maybe even a police officer on the case, it's all good. ;) [/color][/b]


Well I hate to disagree with you, but according to Darlie, Darin and Mama Darlie, Christopher Brown's book WAS the true facts of the case. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Yellowrose]

Hi Jeana, I'm sorry but his book was awful, I couldn't even follow the poorly written thing. I just read his ridiculous theories, they made no sense. The autopsy pictures were very sad. But they really didn't prove guilt or innocence. Cami, who is very bright, was on the fence until she saw "The Invisible Intruder". I wonder why it's not shown. There's so much media on her new website, could it be the "one" the family claims police departments are viewing in what they call "WHAT THE POLICE SHOULDN"T DO ON A CRIME SCENE". Boy I wish I could catch that one.:innocent: p.s. are you really a lawyer?:cool: My husband is a retired police officer and his favorite word is "darlin'" LOL.

[Jeana (DP)]

Hi Jeana, I'm sorry but his book was awful, I couldn't even follow the poorly written thing. I just read his ridiculous theories, they made no sense. The autopsy pictures were very sad. But they really didn't prove guilt or innocence. Cami, who is very bright, was on the fence until she saw "The Invisible Intruder". I wonder why it's not shown. There's so much media on her new website, could it be the "one" the family claims police departments are viewing in what they call "WHAT THE POLICE SHOULDN"T DO ON A CRIME SCENE". Boy I wish I could catch that one.:innocent: p.s. are you really a lawyer?:cool: My husband is a retired police officer and his favorite word is "darlin'" LOL.

I understand what you're saying and I agree. However, they are not just his theories. They are the theories of Darlie and her family and supporters (most of them).

[Goody]

I agree with you on reasonable doubt on Darlie and the Ramseys. Dont know about the A's yet, and I am starting to change my mind about Fatal Vision Jeff after reading Fatal Justice:banghead:
Well, shoot, maybe they are all innocent. We can open the prison gates tomorrow and let them all out, and start over in the morning. :doh: Sheesh! Got any facts you want to share with your opinions? (no offense intended. )

[Goody]

"Many" People Think That Darlie's Deserves A New TrialI know I do. Too much of a "RUSH" to Judgement.

You have to be kidding. All of the evidence pointed straight at Darlie. What were they supposed to do? Ignore it?



As in Don Davis' notes (author). Did she deserve the death penalty? No. Was her trial really fair? Probably not. Then we have another author, Barbara Davis who believes she's totally INNOCENT.

Why does Barbara say she changed her mind?

Don Davis has never said he believed her to be innocent. He just didn't like the way the trial was conducted. I have mixed feelings about that, but I have to admit that the evidence that was presented is hard to dispute. It links her to the murder weapon during the murders and to the knife that cut the screen, which was found inside the house because it, too, belonged to the Routiers. Add that to no evidence of an intruder and what do you have? A mother lying to cover up for the real killer or a mother who just killed her kids and is trying to get out of it any way she can? Either way,it makes her culpable and a party to the crime. And with the blood pointing at her, it seems more reasonable to conclude she did it than that she was only covering up for someone else.


Then we have the overzealous prosecutor "Greg Davis" who appears to take this case personally. Never, ever have I've seen any prosecutor act so "nasty and mean" when speaking to the media on any murder case.

How do you figure that Greg Davis was over zealous? Quotes please. I have not seen anything yet that shows him to be over zealous. Maybe I missed something.

I live in a state that's pro-death penalty. But I do believe there should be a separate penalty phase for it. Juries just don't find someone guilty within five hours and send them off to Death Row.

They didn't. There were two separate trials, commonly referred to as the guilt phase and the punishment phase. After the conviction, witnesses for both sides were called and the jury went back to deliberate again, coming back with their recommendation for the death penalty. Where are you getting your information?

I guess I don't know much about Texas Law, but something isn't right. I am pro-death penalty, but they better prove their case "Beyond" a reasonable doubt.

They did. Maybe you should read the transcripts to see for yourself. You can find them at fordarlieroutier.org

I hate to go on and on, but I must say no one has written a definitive book yet. All 3 are basically the same. We need a damn good "investigative" author to write the true facts of this case. Maybe one day it will happen. And then again, there may be people here who do no more, perhaps they could of known Darlie personally, or maybe a juror, or maybe even a police officer on the case, it's all good. ;)
Do you know Darlie personally?

[Goody]

Cami, who is very bright, was on the fence until she saw "The Invisible Intruder". I wonder why it's not shown. There's so much media on her new website, could it be the "one" the family claims police departments are viewing in what they call "WHAT THE POLICE SHOULDN"T DO ON A CRIME SCENE". Boy I wish I could catch that one.
Cami is right, The Invisible Intruder is a very good look at the case. Not perfect but better than most. As I understand it, it is used to teach blood evidence. I don't know if there is any truth to the family's claims that they are also using it to show what police should not do at a crime scene. I have never heard anyone but Darlie supporters ever say it. I have heard LE say the former though.

If I remember correctly, The Invisible Intruder is a TLC program. Maybe you can request them to run it.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

[/color]How do you figure that Greg Davis was over zealous? Quotes please. I have not seen anything yet that shows him to be over zealous. Maybe I missed something.
You know what Goody? Even if he was "nasty & mean", consider his responsibility. He had to stand there in place of these beautiful children to seek justice for them. The fact that he was so nasty and mean, (if he indeed was), shows me that he probably DOES hate Darlie, based on what happened to those boys & based on his ardent belief that she is the one that caused it. (We all hate the person responsible for doing that to those children.) Does that make him overzealous or just plain determined to put a monster behind bars? It never bothers me when someone refers to an overzealous prosecutor because that just shows me the passion behind their beliefs and their drive to punish the person responsible.

[Goody]

You know what Goody? Even if he was "nasty & mean", consider his responsibility. He had to stand there in place of these beautiful children to seek justice for them. The fact that he was so nasty and mean, (if he indeed was), shows me that he probably DOES hate Darlie, based on what happened to those boys & based on his ardent belief that she is the one that caused it. (We all hate the person responsible for doing that to those children.) Does that make him overzealous or just plain determined to put a monster behind bars? It never bothers me when someone refers to an overzealous prosecutor because that just shows me the passion behind their beliefs and their drive to punish the person responsible.
I agree, but I still wouldn't call Davis overzealous. All prosecutors are zealous and passionate. They have to be to get the guilty party. It always bugs me that people think he was supposed to be "nice" to Darlie. Bet no one wants the prosecutor in Kansas to be nice to Rader. Imagine what it would be like if prosecutors had to tiptoe around the courtroom and question defendants in a kind, supportive tone, never say anything bad about them. LOL!

[Yellowrose]

Cami is right, The Invisible Intruder is a very good look at the case. Not perfect but better than most. As I understand it, it is used to teach blood evidence. I don't know if there is any truth to the family's claims that they are also using it to show what police should not do at a crime scene. I have never heard anyone but Darlie supporters ever say it. I have heard LE say the former though.

If I remember correctly, The Invisible Intruder is a TLC program. Maybe you can request them to run it. You're right Goody, I think I'll buy it. Thanks, from another "Jersey Girl". Cha Cha Cha.

[Jeana (DP)]

I agree, but I still wouldn't call Davis overzealous. All prosecutors are zealous and passionate. They have to be to get the guilty party. It always bugs me that people think he was supposed to be "nice" to Darlie. Bet no one wants the prosecutor in Kansas to be nice to Rader. Imagine what it would be like if prosecutors had to tiptoe around the courtroom and question defendants in a kind, supportive tone, never say anything bad about them. LOL!

Excellent post Goody.

[cami]

I agree with you on reasonable doubt on Darlie and the Ramseys. Dont know about the A's yet, and I am starting to change my mind about Fatal Vision Jeff after reading Fatal Justice:banghead:

FJ is a piece of trash. It's Jeffrey MacDonald's wish as he would want it to be. The authors, Potter and Bost, did not once contact the prosecution or the lead investigator of the 1971 reinvestigation, Peter Kearns, for their input or check facts. It's not well researched and has been edited by MacDonald. The authors have used the "cut and paste" method to get a point across-mostly suppression by the prosecution but when you read the actual court documents, you catch on to their methods. One of the authors has died and the other has distanced himself from MacDonald and his camp.

[cami]

I agree, but I still wouldn't call Davis overzealous. All prosecutors are zealous and passionate. They have to be to get the guilty party. It always bugs me that people think he was supposed to be "nice" to Darlie. Bet no one wants the prosecutor in Kansas to be nice to Rader. Imagine what it would be like if prosecutors had to tiptoe around the courtroom and question defendants in a kind, supportive tone, never say anything bad about them. LOL!

I agree as well. He is after all the representative for the victims. He was working for Devon and Damon, not Darlie.

I wish now I had taped that Medical Detectives program when they aired it on Xmas Eve as they have removed that program from the Canadian affiliate I watched on. Jeez that peeves me off when they do that, LOL.

[Goody]

Excellent post Goody.
Thanks, Jeana.

[Goody]

I agree as well. He is after all the representative for the victims. He was working for Devon and Damon, not Darlie.

I wish now I had taped that Medical Detectives program when they aired it on Xmas Eve as they have removed that program from the Canadian affiliate I watched on. Jeez that peeves me off when they do that, LOL.
I did tape it. Hah!

[cami]

I did tape it. Hah!

aha, I've taped it and taped over it a few times so I bet i have it lying around on an old tape somewhere, LOL. I wanted to tape it for someone but I can't remember who, LOL.

[Goody]

aha, I've taped it and taped over it a few times so I bet i have it lying around on an old tape somewhere, LOL. I wanted to tape it for someone but I can't remember who, LOL.
byn maybe?

[cami]

byn maybe?

Nah, she sort of fell of the Darlie radar, she's tied up with MacDonald and reading all the appeals and the decisions. I think it was Yiab, LOL. I was supposed to tape her the segment on Darlie and then a Canadian documentary on Homolka/Bernardo. I have the H/B but not Darlie.

[accordn2me]

Where is my memory! :doh:

Did James Cron testify that the fiber on the knife was from the screen? I thought he said something to the effect of the fiber was a material that could be consistent with material used to make the screen.

Did they ever say when they thought the screen was cut with the knife? If it was before the murders, does anyone think it's incredible that the fiber stayed on that knife through all the slashing and stabbing? If it was after the murders, does anyone think it's incredible that no blood was found on the screen?

Two things give me pause about the prosecutor. The first is when I saw him say the silly string video is what clinched Darlie's guilty for him. The second is the mock trials. Apparently, it's legal to have mock trials and get all the witnesses in the same room to rehearse and refine the testimony. The thing I can't figure out is why can't they all sit in the courtroom during the whole trial?

[Dani_T]

Did James Cron testify that the fiber on the knife was from the screen? I thought he said something to the effect of the fiber was a material that could be consistent with material used to make the screen.

It wasn't actually Cron who testified about that fibre. I think it was Linch. The fibre was never actually to be proven to be from the screen itself but it was shown that in every single way it was absolutely identical to the fibres from the screen. And it actually consisted of two parts... in fact it was two bits of trace evidence right next to each other on the knife rather than one bit.

- Fibreglass rod which was the exact same width as the rods which make up the screen
- Pigmented rubber debris which was exactly the same as what you get when you use that knife to cut the screen

There really is no reasonable doubt about the fibre on the knife at all. It came from the screen

Did they ever say when they thought the screen was cut with the knife? If it was before the murders, does anyone think it's incredible that the fiber stayed on that knife through all the slashing and stabbing? If it was after the murders, does anyone think it's incredible that no blood was found on the screen?
That wasn't the knife used in the stabbings. The fibre from the screen was on the bread knife which had been put back into the butcher's block and wasn't used in the murders. The butchers knife was what was used to kill the boys.

[accordn2me]

[/i]

That wasn't the knife used in the stabbings. The fibre from the screen was on the bread knife which had been put back into the butcher's block and wasn't used in the murders. The butchers knife was what was used to kill the boys.
DUH! I remember that now. It came back to me when I read it on one of the older threads here. :blushing:

There is so much about this case that I don't remember. It's one of the most troublesome, though. I can't think of anything worse that could happen to a person than to be on death row for the murder of two of your kids if you are innocent.

[cami]

DUH! I remember that now. It came back to me when I read it on one of the older threads here. :blushing:

There is so much about this case that I don't remember. It's one of the most troublesome, though. I can't think of anything worse that could happen to a person than to be on death row for the murder of two of your kids if you are innocent.

Yes that would be horrible IF she were innocent. I believe she is guilty but I do not believe the DP was warranted in this case.

[accordn2me]

Hello my Canadian neighbor,

IF she is guilty, I have no problem with the death penalty. If this crime doesn't warrant it, what does?

[Becba]

When I saw her bruising I thought she had been attacked. And I heard the memorial video did not show the beginning where she was grieving.

The more I read the more I think she did this. Someone mentioned her bruising could have been from her stabbing her kids and them fighting back. That seems reasonable to me.
Her throat injury looks almost too close for comfort to self inflict though. I know it was testified that the wound was not deep but didn't it require stitches?

[cami]

Hello my Canadian neighbor,

IF she is guilty, I have no problem with the death penalty. If this crime doesn't warrant it, what does?


I think there's mitigating factors. I'm fine with LWOP. I don't think she planned the murders, I believe it was an explosion of rage.

[Goody]

Her throat injury looks almost too close for comfort to self inflict though. I know it was testified that the wound was not deep but didn't it require stitches?
That is misleading though. For one thing, people who self inflict neck wounds tend to cut with a downward slant, exactly like hers. Also, nothing was hit that could cause permanent damage. Sure, she almost hit that carotid artery, but at the same time, she didn't cut her windpipe, her vocal cords,etc, which are typically cut when someone else cuts your throat. And it would be so easy to do with a sharp knife. One wouldn't have to even move the blade that much. it would be over in a second or two.

[Jeana (DP)]

I think there's mitigating factors. I'm fine with LWOP. I don't think she planned the murders, I believe it was an explosion of rage.


Even if it was just by minutes (or an hour), she premediated them IMO.

[Goody]

Hello my Canadian neighbor,

IF she is guilty, I have no problem with the death penalty. If this crime doesn't warrant it, what does?
The Texas statute, I think, has qualifiers for the death penalty beyond the actual crime of murder. The jury must decide if the defendant is a threat to society, is likely to reoffend if let back out into society, etc. I can't remember the exact terms, but maybe Jeana can post it here somewhere. The point is that it is not the nature of the crime that "warrants it" as you say but how big of a risk a paroled defendant might be someday. At least that is my understanding of it.

I agree the bloody murder of your children is a crime that should warrant it, but lawmakers in Texas apparently felt otherwise. That doesn't mean that I think all parents who kill their children should get the DP. I don't. Nor do I think Darlie should have gotten it, esp considering the statute on it. But I don't mind at all that the Avila guy in California got it for what he did to Samatha Runnion. Personally, I don't like thinking about the punishment as much as I do about the evidence that leads to conviction.

[Goody]

I think there's mitigating factors. I'm fine with LWOP. I don't think she planned the murders, I believe it was an explosion of rage.
I wish I could make up my mind on this, Cami. I still struggle with it. I just don't see rage/ On the other hand, I really do think Devon was killed much sooner than Damon and that some time passed between the first attack and the second. That sounds or feels "sudden" to me. It is the rage or the anger that escapes me. If only we knew what triggered it.

[Jeana (DP)]

[color=blue]The Texas statute, I think, has qualifiers for the death penalty beyond the actual crime of murder. The jury must decide if the defendant is a threat to society, is likely to reoffend if let back out into society, etc. I can't remember the exact terms, but maybe Jeana can post it here somewhere.


Here ya go darlin:


Art. 37.071. Procedure in capital case
Sec. 1. If a defendant is found guilty in a capital felony case in which the state does not seek the death penalty, the judge shall sentence the defendant to life imprisonment.
Sec. 2. (a) If a defendant is tried for a capital offense in which the state seeks the death penalty, on a finding that the defendant is guilty of a capital offense , the court shall conduct a separate sentencing proceeding to determine whether the defendant shall be sentenced to death or life imprisonment. The proceeding shall be conducted in the trial court and, except as provided by Article 44.29(c) of this code, before the trial jury as soon as practicable. In the proceeding, evidence may be presented by the state and the defendant or the defendant's counsel as to any matter that the court deems relevant to sentence, including evidence of the defendant's background or character or the circumstances of the offense that mitigates against the imposition of the death penalty. This subsection shall not be construed to authorize the introduction of any evidence secured in violation of the Constitution of the United States or of the State of Texas. The state and the defendant or the defendant's counsel shall be permitted to present argument for or against sentence of death. The court, the attorney representing the state, the defendant, or the defendant's counsel may not inform a juror or a prospective juror of the effect of a failure of a jury to agree on issues submitted under Subsection (c) or (e) of this article.
(b) On conclusion of the presentation of the evidence, the court shall submit the following issues to the jury:
(1) whether there is a probability that the defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute a
continuing threat to society; and (2) in cases in which the jury charge at the guilt or innocence stage permitted the jury to find the defendant guilty as a
party under Sections 7.01 and 7.02, Penal Code, whether the defendant actually caused the death of the deceased
or did not actually cause the death of the deceased but intended to kill the deceased or another or anticipated that a
human life would be taken.
(c) The state must prove each issue submitted under Subsection (b) of this article beyond a reasonable doubt, and the
jury shall return a special verdict of "yes" or "no" on each issue submitted under Subsection (b) of this Article.
(d) The court shall charge the jury that:
(1) in deliberating on the issues submitted under Subsection (b) of this article, it shall consider all evidence admitted
at the guilt or innocence stage and the punishment stage, including evidence of the defendant's background or
character or the circumstances of the offense that militates for or mitigates against the imposition of the death penalty;
(2) it may not answer any issue submitted under Subsection (b) of this article "yes" unless it agrees unanimously and it
may not answer any issue "no" unless 10 or more jurors agree; and
(3) members of the jury need not agree on what particular evidence supports a negative answer to any issue submitted
under Subsection (b) of this article.
(e)(1) The court shall instruct the jury that if the jury returns an affirmative finding to each issue submitted under
Subsection (b) of this article, it shall answer the following issue:
Whether, taking into consideration all of the evidence, including the circumstances of the offense , the defendant's character and background, and the personal moral culpability of the defendant, there is a sufficient mitigating circumstance or circumstances to warrant that a sentence of life imprisonment rather than a death sentence be imposed.

[cami]

That is misleading though. For one thing, people who self inflict neck wounds tend to cut with a downward slant, exactly like hers. Also, nothing was hit that could cause permanent damage. Sure, she almost hit that carotid artery, but at the same time, she didn't cut her windpipe, her vocal cords,etc, which are typically cut when someone else cuts your throat. And it would be so easy to do with a sharp knife. One wouldn't have to even move the blade that much. it would be over in a second or two.

Goody remember when we used to experiment. You discovered that you really could roll that knife and not move the blade that much and make that cut. Camilla and I discovered ( I think it was us, LOL) that you don't have to move the knife that much when kneeling over a child to fling the blood from it onto the back of your night shirt and then continue on the front shoulder. And maybe what the sock was used for.

I suggest we try it again. Lay on a sofa and pretend someone is attacking you with a knife. What is your first instinct? You try and grab the knife or push it away or you throw your arms up and try to protect your head and face?

Darlie should have defense cuts to the palms of her hands and her fingers. If she had thrown her arms up to protect her face and head, she'd have slash marks to the underside of her arms and not to the forearms. Those two stab wounds look to me as if she held out her arms for the assailant to cut her.

MOO

[Goody]

Here ya go darlin:


Art. 37.071. Procedure in capital case
Sec. 1. If a defendant is found guilty in a capital felony case in which the state does not seek the death penalty, the judge shall sentence the defendant to life imprisonment.........

Jeana, could you send me a copy of this so I can keep it handy. Thanks.

[Goody]

Darlie should have defense cuts to the palms of her hands and her fingers. If she had thrown her arms up to protect her face and head, she'd have slash marks to the underside of her arms and not to the forearms. Those two stab wounds look to me as if she held out her arms for the assailant to cut her.

MOO
Could not agree more. Darlie should have had multiple stabs, slices, pricks, etc on her forearms and hands, a couple thru her hands even, if she had been trying to fend off a knife wielding assailant. That doesn't even take into account the probability of how many times the assailant would have missed his target and hit other parts of her body as she twisted and struggled. She doesn't even have a bruise to her face or any small cuts.

[Amster]

Newbie jumping in here. I live very close to where this happened. This case gave me nightmares for months!

I joined here to follow the MJ case and found this board tonight. Very interesting and so informative! I've been reading about stuff that I never knew....and I have followed it closely.

I love this place! :clap:

[cami]

Newbie jumping in here. I live very close to where this happened. This case gave me nightmares for months!

I joined here to follow the MJ case and found this board tonight. Very interesting and so informative! I've been reading about stuff that I never knew....and I have followed it closely.

I love this place! :clap:

HI Amster. Yes jump right in and welcome aboard.

Do you recall what the media was writing or reporting about this case in the days right after the murders? On another thread Goody was asking the question what the media was saying about her. Were they hinting she was involved do you know or remember?

[Amster]

HI Amster. Yes jump right in and welcome aboard.

Do you recall what the media was writing or reporting about this case in the days right after the murders? On another thread Goody was asking the question what the media was saying about her. Were they hinting she was involved do you know or remember?Thanks cami!

Right after, first few days, the media was focused on "how could this happen? A nice neighborhood in an upscale Dallas suburb." But it seems it was fairly soon that the questions started. Why kill the kids? Why this family? Where was the husband? How did the killer get in? Interviews with neighbors. Darlie was a great mom. Very involved with her kids. This was before Greta etc. and nightly updates.

The first I heard of some rumblings of doubt was on talk radio. Those first pics of the boys bothered some people. Then the funeral. The pressure must have been building because Darlies' family started making the rounds. The first time I heard them on the radio, I knew something was hinky. And if I recall correctly, one of them or all walked out of an interview. That was during the time Darin was talking about the boob job and his beautiful wife and somebody could have been stalking her from a grocery store.

So, my long winded answer is, the doubt about Darlies story was there. Not the local TV news or newspaper. They were just repeating whatever the LE released. People calling in on talk radio were not buying it. That escalated after the family bombed out in the interviews.

[Goody]

Jeana, could you send me a copy of this so I can keep it handy. Thanks.
I got it. Thanks anyway. I didn't think it would copy but it did.

[Goody]

Newbie jumping in here. I live very close to where this happened. This case gave me nightmares for months!

I joined here to follow the MJ case and found this board tonight. Very interesting and so informative! I've been reading about stuff that I never knew....and I have followed it closely.

I love this place! :clap:\
Hi, Amster. Glad to see you here! Do you know anyone who knows Darlie? We've been wanting to hear from some of her friends to get their take on what she was really like, normally and in the months leading up to the murders. Thanks for the update on the media at the time.

[Amster]

\
Hi, Amster. Glad to see you here! Do you know anyone who knows Darlie? We've been wanting to hear from some of her friends to get their take on what she was really like, normally and in the months leading up to the murders. Thanks for the update on the media at the time.
Hi Goody

No, I don't know anyone who knows her. There were neighbors at the beginning that talked to the press, of course. But I don't recall anybody claiming to be a friend of hers. Just the opposite, actually.

[Goody]

Hi Goody

No, I don't know anyone who knows her. There were neighbors at the beginning that talked to the press, of course. But I don't recall anybody claiming to be a friend of hers. Just the opposite, actually.
I would love to talk to Mercedes.

[upallnite]

After watching last night's forensic file episode on this case,I cannot believe I've been so naive.Up until last night I could never fathom how she could do such a thing.Now I can.The forensic evidence in this case was shocking.Thank's for tipping me off that the show was on,it wasn't even listed here.

[Jeana (DP)]

After watching last night's forensic file episode on this case,I cannot believe I've been so naive.Up until last night I could never fathom how she could do such a thing.Now I can.The forensic evidence in this case was shocking.Thank's for tipping me off that the show was on,it wasn't even listed here.


Hi and welcome! I agree with you. The television shows and the books, especially the one that's supposed to help her the most, Media Tried, Justice Denied, point to Darlie as the murderer.

[duffy]

The verdict is in: Darlie is GUILTY as charged! Court is now dismissed. (just kidding even though this is anything but a laughing matter)

I think she is guilty. I believe the prosecution brought enough evidence to the table to prove she was.

I think she murdered the boys because 3 boys were much more difficult and time consuming to parent than 1. I have also personally seen that when a child grew beyond the "adorable" stage, the parent just didn't want them anymore. Fortunately for my foster sister her mother didn't murder her but after she turned 5 yrs. old and was no longer the little princess to be paraded in front of the ladies at "tea" time she actually just hated her and showed her how much, until the day she came to live with us at 15.

I do know on the A&E channel they reported that the bloody sock was proven to be Darin's.

I read the one woman who wrote the book on Darlie which upon her investigation believed Darlie was innocent. I don't recall her name. I have c.r.s. (can't remember stuff!). Nothing this woman said caused me to believe anything besides 100% guilty.

I believe everyone has their right to their opinion but I also believe that you need to base your opinion on facts and use common sense. The sad and unfortunate part is some of these people are jurors in real life trials. I know from personal experience.

I had never heard the story of Darin trying to find someone to burgle their home. Interesting. Was that brought up in court?

[Mirielle]

I think Darlie Routier was a coldblooded narcissist (and histrionic, I agree) and her murder of her two boys was fueled by rage, frustration and diet pills. I read somewhere that she had been taking them to lose weight from the last pregnancy. The Routiers were in dire financial straits and she was stuck in the house all day with the kids because the car was broken. She had a fight with Darin. She had her wedding dress out, a bunch of jewelry, and photos...looks as if she had a late night pity party and worked herself into killing her sons, probably to hurt Darin.

She probably cut the screen first to make it look as if there was an intruder.

Then she probably injured herself. Note how the knife wound runs along the natural fold of the neck. That is not going to leave a bad scar. The wet towels could have been to numb the skin before slashing and stabbing herself. I think she injured herself first over the sink and then killed the boys. Then she tried to clean up the sink.

I think the bruises were also self inflicted. Perhaps she slammed her arms in the counter under the sink after she had done the knife wound, which could account for the blood inside the sink.

I think Darin was totally codependent and tried to cover for her, attempting to salvage what he could from the situation. The points where he failed the lie detector test would be where he covered for Darlie. I get the feeling Darin is not the brightest and he may have actually believed she had been attacked...at first.

What mother could stand there without taking her dying sons in her arms? Only a murdering mother! That distancing from the victims is so typical of murderers.

I have never been swayed by the silly string incident. People do all kinds of odd things at funerals. One of my friends played tapes of Lawrence Welk at her dad's funeral, including the "Champagne Music", because her father's high point of the week was to watch the Lawrence Welk show. The woman behind me said, very quietly,"This is the strangest funeral music I've ever heard." The man said,"Shhhh. This is bizarre. What are they doing? It's got to be some mistake."

I have read all Darlie's stories and they point to one thing :liar: :liar: :liar:

I am amazed that Darlie has any apologists at all. The forensic evidence is overwhelmingly not in her favor. Guilty! I do have to add that I am never in favor of the death penalty.

[Mary456]

Quote: "I had never heard the story of Darin trying to find someone to burgle their home. Interesting. Was that brought up in court?"

Nope. Not a word mentioned about a planned burglary anytime during Darlie's trial. This story only surfaced about a year ago when Darlie lost her appeal. Desperate times call for desperate measure, you know :)

As far as I'm concerned, it's bogus for two reasons:

1. When your wife has been sitting on death row for six years, you don't suddenly "remember" that you'd planned to have your house robbed on the night your two sons were killed.

2. In his affidavit, Darin didn't name a single person he supposedly contacted to commit this burglary, so there is no way to verify his story. Surely if he thought these fictitious characters had anything to do with the murders of his boys, he would give the names to LE so they could check it out.

He's a :liar:

[duffy]

hmmmm, Mary456, now I understand the context in which this story is told. Interesting. You're right, you don't all of a sudden remember something like that 6 years after your wife has been on death row. They need a smiley face that holds his nose because this tale really stinks!

Mirielle, I understand what you are saying about the different way people react after a death in the family but your friend was burying her father not her 2 brutally murdered children. I'm not minimizing your friends loss but there would be a difference. It wasn't just the silly string by itself. I watched her body language. She not only smiled but laughed and there wasn't anything about either which looked forced, drug induced or hesitant. Someone who is grieving may laugh or smile but you can tell from their countenance they are hurting.

I am a whole-hearted death penalty supporter. 1. Whoever commits the crime to receive the d.p. once they recieve it they won't be doing that again. Plain and simple. 2. In my much reading of ppl who commit murder, law enforcement have discovered some who having lived in a d.p. state would cross state lines to commit murder in a non-d.p. state. 3. As a Christian, if these ppl are ever going to get "right" before they die, they are given the opportunity, they already know when they are gonna go or at least have a close proximity. The ppl they victimized more likely were not afforded that priveledge. :twocents:

[Jeana (DP)]

Duffy, I agree with you about funerals, but the silly string incident wasn't at their funeral. It was a "birthday party."

Plenty of people, did, however, have a problem with the fact that the boys were buried with a knife in their casket. Some also had a problem with them playing "Gangsta's Paradise" during the service.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Plenty of people, did, however, have a problem with the fact that the boys were buried with a knife in their casket. Some also had a problem with them playing "Gangsta's Paradise" during the service.
What???? I learned about this case long after Darlie was sent to DR so didn't get into reading a lot of the stuff. I had never heard this!!!! Un-freakin'-believable!!! How has this been explained?

BTW, I don't remember ... were the boys buried together in a shared casket?

[Jeana (DP)]

What???? I learned about this case long after Darlie was sent to DR so didn't get into reading a lot of the stuff. I had never heard this!!!! Un-freakin'-believable!!! How has this been explained?

BTW, I don't remember ... were the boys buried together in a shared casket?


Yes, the boys were buried together.

It was explained that Devon wanted a swiss army knife, so they gave him one. The music they said was because the boys liked that song. Don't ask me why 5 and 6 year old boys even KNOW that song existed, but . . . .

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

It was explained that Devon wanted a swiss army knife, so they gave him one. The music they said was because the boys liked that song. Don't ask me why 5 and 6 year old boys even KNOW that song existed, but . . . .And no one found it even slightly inappropriate to bury a stabbing victim with a knife? Wow. Sounds to me like there were at least several bad judgement calls.

[duffy]

Dear God, I didn't know they had been buried with a swiss army knife. I feel like I've had the wind knocked out of me. Those people are sick, sick, sick and Darlie doesn't hold the exclusive on that.

I'm not familiar with Gangsta song. I'm going to have to look it up.

Jeana, right, I remembered (miracles DO happen!)it was the birthday party following the memorial service. The point more than anything being differences in the way people handle grief.

I have tried so hard to give Darlie Routier and the Ramsey's the benefit of the doubt. I'll think, "Ok, discount everything you've heard which points towards their guilt" and then I find whole new list of reasons they each are guilty as he-double hockey sticks.

Darlie still has time yet but she doesn't have THAT much more time and she isn't going to get a reversal. I'll be sad because it is sad but I won't and don't feel sorry.

[Dani_T]

And no one found it even slightly inappropriate to bury a stabbing victim with a knife? Wow. Sounds to me like there were at least several bad judgement calls.

To be absolutely fair it was only a swiss army knife and most of those don't really live up to their 'knife' name. They have a small blade but it's not like they buried the boys with a massive butcher's knife or a big hunting knife.

[Jeana (DP)]

And no one found it even slightly inappropriate to bury a stabbing victim with a knife? Wow. Sounds to me like there were at least several bad judgement calls.

All around this story that "theme" keeps reappearing.
First, they're stabbed to death in their sleep;
second, they're buried with a knife;
lastly, they're exhumed from their resting place so their hands could be chopped off.

It doesn't get any worse.

[Jeana (DP)]

Dear God, I didn't know they had been buried with a swiss army knife. I feel like I've had the wind knocked out of me. Those people are sick, sick, sick and Darlie doesn't hold the exclusive on that.

I'm not familiar with Gangsta song. I'm going to have to look it up.


Here's the song:

COOLIO - GANGSTA'S PARADISE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I take a look at my life and realise there's none left
Cause I've been brassing and laughing so long that
Even my mamma thinks that my mind is gone
But I aint never crossed a man that didn't deserve it
Me be treated like a punk, you know that's unheard of
You better watch how you talking, and where you walking
Or you and your homies might be lined in chalk
I really hate to trip but I gotta lope(?)
As they croak I see myself in the pistal smoke ... fool
I'm the kinda G that little homies want to be like
On my knees in the night, saying prayers in the street light


They been spending most their lives living in the gangsta's paradise
They been spending most their lives living in the gangsta's paradise
We keep spending most our lives living in the gangsta's paradise
We keep spending most our lives living in the gangsta's paradise

They got the situation, they got me facing
I can't live a normal life, I was raised by the strip
So I gotta be down with the hood team
Too much television watching got me chasing dreams




I'm a educated fool with my knee on my mind
Got my 10 in my hand and a gleam in my eye
I'm a loped(?) out gangsta set trippin banger
And my homies is down so gonna rouse my anger ... fool
Death aint nothing but a heart beat away
I'm living life do or die, what can I say
I'm 23 never will I live to see 24
The way things is going I don't know

Tell me why are we so blind to see
That the ones we hurt are you and me.



Power and the money, money and the power
Minute after minute, hour after hour
Everybody's running, but half of them aint looking
What's going on in the kitchen, but I don't know what's cooking
They say I've got to learn but nobody's here to teach me
If they can't understand it, how can they reach me
I guess they can't
I guess they won't
I guess they front
That's why I know my life is out of luck ... fool



Tell me why are we so blind to see
That the ones we hurt are you and me.

Tell me why are we so blind to see
That the ones we hurt are you and me.

[duffy]

This woman defies human nature. I couldn't imagine being the cops and D.A. working this case knowing as much as they did and she continues to bellow innocense. One of the website I went to exclaimed several times on the front page of how she has adamantly proclaimed her innocense without waiver. Well no kidding! She's going to die for her choices what does she have to lose.

Do you ever remember when you were a kid and being crushed beyond measure because your parents didn't take your side in an offense? "Mom, how could you think that teacher is right?" I can't imagine how it would feel to have your parent hate you so much.

She is the sort of person who makes you want to take the law into your own hands.

And Darin? I know his support has begun to sway but to keep his mouth shut? He is every bit as guilty as she is.

Thanks for the post of the song. That was another thing I didn't know.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

To be absolutely fair it was only a swiss army knife and most of those don't really live up to their 'knife' name. They have a small blade but it's not like they buried the boys with a massive butcher's knife or a big hunting knife.Sure, I understand that. I still feel it's inappropriate, no matter how I look at it. I was so troubled by this fact that I was discussing it with my family members yesterday, and no matter what we all said, we still kept coming back to the fact that this was a very young boy, stabbed to death, and buried by his Mommy & Daddy with a knife. Only one out of four of us weren't sickened by it. I guess that the one that found it okay just goes to show that people have different views on things, but if it were my son, and someone suggested getting him & burying with him that knife that he always wanted, I may have been arrested for assault (or worse). The last thing that I would have wanted next to my baby boy's body in his final resting place would be a knife of any kind.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Here's the song:

COOLIO - GANGSTA'S PARADISE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I actually like this song very much, and have been guilty of allowing my children to watch & listen to things that are possibly (okay, probably) above their age level. I have no problem with the kids having known or liked this song since it did receive airplay on "regular" radio stations. The line was crossed when some fool(s) decided to play this at their service.

[Jeana (DP)]

I actually like this song very much, and have been guilty of allowing my children to watch & listen to things that are possibly (okay, probably) above their age level. I have no problem with the kids having known or liked this song since it did receive airplay on "regular" radio stations. The line was crossed when some fool(s) decided to play this at their service.

I don't let my kids listen to rap music. Too much T&A for us! :rolleyes:

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I don't let my kids listen to rap music. Too much T&A for us! :rolleyes:lol - very true! My kids don't specifically listen to it either but some of them make it to the pop stations, and that's when my kids become familiar with them. This song just happens to be one of them.

[Goody]

In my much reading of ppl who commit murder, law enforcement have discovered some who having lived in a d.p. state would cross state lines to commit murder in a non-d.p. state. :twocents:
Well, I wish someone would tell the criminals in Texas about it. They keep killing and getting the death penalty. Actually, it has always amazed me that so many people don't take their dp crimes to non-dp states, but I guess when you get right down to it, you just can't plan everything. ;)

[Goody]

Duffy, I agree with you about funerals, but the silly string incident wasn't at their funeral. It was a "birthday party."

Plenty of people, did, however, have a problem with the fact that the boys were buried with a knife in their casket. Some also had a problem with them playing "Gangsta's Paradise" during the service.
The silly string party was a bit shocking at first sight, but I didn't give it much value in deciding guilt or innocence. The knife thingy was a bit cold though. Of course, Darin was the one who planned the funeral, not Darlie. At least that is what they claimed at trial.

[Goody]

To be absolutely fair it was only a swiss army knife and most of those don't really live up to their 'knife' name. They have a small blade but it's not like they buried the boys with a massive butcher's knife or a big hunting knife.
aaaahahahahahahahha! O, Dani, please, you can't qualify the knife. Any kind of knife was inappropriate, and it shows how insensitive Darin was to the situation much more so than Darlie. He is, after all, the one who put the knife there as a gift to his son. Amazing that he didn't make the connection but he didn't and now lives with the constant criticism of it.

[Goody]

And Darin? I know his support has begun to sway but to keep his mouth shut? He is every bit as guilty as she is.


"As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I take a look at my life and realise there's none left
Cause I've been brassing and laughing so long that
Even my mamma thinks that my mind is gone
But I aint never crossed a man that didn't deserve it
Me be treated like a punk, you know that's unheard of
You better watch how you talking, and where you walking
Or you and your homies might be lined in chalk
I really hate to trip but I gotta lope(?)
As they croak I see myself in the pistal smoke ... fool
I'm the kinda G that little homies want to be like
On my knees in the night, saying prayers in the street light "

This is the part that makes the song so shocking. Read that knowing what you know now.

Darin claims he is the one who picked out the song to be played at the funeral. Darlie was in the hospital. He picked it because it was the boys' favorite song.

[Dani_T]

aaaahahahahahahahha! O, Dani, please, you can't qualify the knife. Any kind of knife was inappropriate, and it shows how insensitive Darin was to the situation much more so than Darlie. He is, after all, the one who put the knife there as a gift to his son. Amazing that he didn't make the connection but he didn't and now lives with the constant criticism of it.

I guess I never just saw it as a major thing. Inappropriate? Very possibly- at least from our point of view. But I've never considered it as any indication of guilt. Likewise, as disturbed as I was at her behaviour on the silly string video it's not that convinces me of her guilt- it's the evidence

[Goody]

I guess I never just saw it as a major thing. Inappropriate? Very possibly- at least from our point of view. But I've never considered it as any indication of guilt. Likewise, as disturbed as I was at her behaviour on the silly string video it's not that convinces me of her guilt- it's the evidence
I think it shows a disassociation on both their parts. I can see how it wouldn't be if the children had not been lost is such a horrific way and if they had not been witnesses to it, even if just after the fact. It seems more like a blunder a stranger not close to the kids might make, or maybe a young relative without much life experience. It seems "out there" though by a parent only a couple of days after such a traumatic event. You'd think they would never want to see a knife again.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I think it shows a disassociation on both their parts.This is exactly what I was thinking. In addition, it shows that perhaps they don't see, feel, or experience things quite the same way as most folks. How far those differences go ... well, I guess that depends on whether or not one thinks that Darlie is guilty.

[Goody]

I guess I never just saw it as a major thing. Inappropriate? Very possibly- at least from our point of view. But I've never considered it as any indication of guilt. Likewise, as disturbed as I was at her behaviour on the silly string video it's not that convinces me of her guilt- it's the evidence
I don't think it shows guilt or innocence persay. I mean, one wouldn't decide guilt or innocence based only on what they might have felt when placing a knife in the coffin, but it does show disassociation between the parents and the crime, which is pretty common amongst parents who murder their young. That makes it a piece of circumstantial evidence among many other pieces that support the DA's claims that at least Darlie murdered her children. We would all like to have a video confession but until we get one of those we can only speculate by connecting the dots on some of the other not so direct pieces of evidence that give us little glimses of the evidence we don't have.

In all fairness though, I think this one tells us more about Darin than it does Darlie because she wasn't the one who decided to do most of what was done at the funeral. I imagine Darin ran his ideas past her and she probably agreed, but that is different than being the one actually making the decisions.

[Goody]

This is exactly what I was thinking. In addition, it shows that perhaps they don't see, feel, or experience things quite the same way as most folks. How far those differences go ... well, I guess that depends on whether or not one thinks that Darlie is guilty.
I don't know. Can two normal by all appearances young adults actually be THAT different from their peers? Is it possible not to see that bloody knife plunging at your children, hear their screams every time you close your eyes even if you weren't present or didn't see the attack? How could you handle any knife in the days following the crime without seeing it, feel the cool metal without feeling absolutely devastated down to your toes?

We know we are all different in some respects but HOW different are we really? Are we THAT different?

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Chilling post, Goody. After reading it, I realize that most parents are more deeply different than Darlie & Darin than I had originally thought. Even if by some bizarre circumstance I would snap and harm my children, once I regained my senses I would take my own life. There's no way I could go on. They wouldn't be able to execute me quickly enough.

[Goody]

Chilling post, Goody. After reading it, I realize that most parents are more deeply different than Darlie & Darin than I had originally thought. Even if by some bizarre circumstance I would snap and harm my children, once I regained my senses I would take my own life. There's no way I could go on. They wouldn't be able to execute me quickly enough.
That is why most mother's confess. They don't even try to hide it. Neither of these parents seem to have felt that way. Makes you wonder,doesn't it?

[Cowgirl]

As a person who feels bad about yelling at my dogs, I just cannot imagine how this woman lives with herself. I cannot imagine why she did it, I cannot imagine living through the death of my kids if someone else did it, and I cannot conceive how she lives with it now. She is one cold customer. I don't even have a theory about her husband, but somehow, I feel like he is her victim too.

Guilty per se, and any other "say" as well!

[Goody]

As a person who feels bad about yelling at my dogs, I just cannot imagine how this woman lives with herself. I cannot imagine why she did it, I cannot imagine living through the death of my kids if someone else did it, and I cannot conceive how she lives with it now. She is one cold customer. I don't even have a theory about her husband, but somehow, I feel like he is her victim too.

Guilty per se, and any other "say" as well!
Funny that you used the word "cold". Mulder used it too when describing her. Springer claimed a reporter overheard him tell another atty during a recess that Darlie was "one cold fish."

[beesy]

As a person who feels bad about yelling at my dogs, I just cannot imagine how this woman lives with herself. I cannot imagine why she did it, I cannot imagine living through the death of my kids if someone else did it, and I cannot conceive how she lives with it now. She is one cold customer. I don't even have a theory about her husband, but somehow, I feel like he is her victim too.

Guilty per se, and any other "say" as well! He is her victim too. I can't decide the right word. Is he brainwashed, blinded, guilty, I don't know? I know she is in control of this whole thing and he just follows along. Smart to save himself, but once again a dufus when it comes to her.

[Goody]

He is her victim too. I can't decide the right word. Is he brainwashed, blinded, guilty, I don't know? I know she is in control of this whole thing and he just follows along. Smart to save himself, but once again a dufus when it comes to her.
I don't know. I have seen so many guys let the women take the heat for things they do or say, yet behind the scenes they are the ones calling the shots. I think the jury is still out on that one.

I think Darlie is gutsier than he is, that she was the aggressive one and the one more prone to do the dirty work, but I am not sure that means she was bossing him around or making all the decisions. For all we know, he could be an Eddie Haskell behind the scenes telling her what to do and publicly shrugging his shoulders as if he has no idea why she did it.

When my boys were little, one would say, "I wonder what would happen if we did this or that." The other one would do it and he'd get in trouble for it. The one who thought it up would just say, "Don't look at me. I didn't do it," but he knew perfectly well if he said it out loud that his idiot brother would do it. That way he would get the pleasure of seeing it done without getting his own hands dirty. (Born to be a politician, I think)

I am not convinced that Darin is as dumb as he looks or as innocent as he claims.

[beesy]

[QUOTE]For all we know, he could be an Eddie Haskell behind the scenes telling her what to do and publicly shrugging his shoulders as if he has no idea why she did it.
:laugh: I happen to like Eddie Haskell, he's misunderstood, poor dear. So watch your comparisons to Darin. shame on you:crazy:

[Goody]

[/color][/size]
:laugh: I happen to like Eddie Haskell, he's misunderstood, poor dear. So watch your comparisons to Darin. shame on you:crazy:

I hope you mean you like the guy who plays the character, not the character himself. LOL! Of course, now days even the character is a light weight when compared to today's kid in the neighborhood you'd rather do without.

[beesy]

I hope you mean you like the guy who plays the character, not the character himself. LOL! Of course, now days even the character is a light weight when compared to today's kid in the neighborhood you'd rather do without. I like Eddie, the character. I see something deeper in his eyes than the little rat he shows the world. He's hurting, that's all Goody. LOL

[Goody]

I like Eddie, the character. I see something deeper in his eyes than the little rat he shows the world. He's hurting, that's all Goody. LOL
Yeah, like the wimpy little kid who rats out his friends all the time hurts over the black eyes they keep giving him. ahahahahahahahhaha!

[vanillasky]

I know I'm very late in getting to this topic, but I just spent quite a while reading the past 9 pages. (Of course, I have lots more threads to go in here too) But... can anyone recommend a book about the case? One that wasn't written by a Darlie supporter - a book that is fairly straightforward. I saw several books mentioned in the last 9 pages, but it sounded like they weren't true to the facts.

Also, I had a question for Jeana... you mentioned about the boys being exhumed and having their hands removed - did I read that correctly?? When did that happen? I've never really gotten in depth with this case, that is why I haven't heard that before. Also, what was your relationship to Darlie's mother? Friend? Neighbor? Sorry for so many questions, I'm just very curious.

Thank you! :)

[Jeana (DP)]

I know I'm very late in getting to this topic, but I just spent quite a while reading the past 9 pages. (Of course, I have lots more threads to go in here too) But... can anyone recommend a book about the case? One that wasn't written by a Darlie supporter - a book that is fairly straightforward. I saw several books mentioned in the last 9 pages, but it sounded like they weren't true to the facts.

Also, I had a question for Jeana... you mentioned about the boys being exhumed and having their hands removed - did I read that correctly?? When did that happen? I've never really gotten in depth with this case, that is why I haven't heard that before. Also, what was your relationship to Darlie's mother? Friend? Neighbor? Sorry for so many questions, I'm just very curious.

Thank you! :)


The exhumation and "rehydration" of the hands really wasn't very well publicized. Once Darlie went to death row, very few people (save supporters) were blabbing to the press and let's face it, this isn't the sort of thing they want to go around advertising.

I have no relationship to Darlie's mother. I had some e-mail correspondence with her. I know one of the prosecutors though and lived about two minutes from where the murders were in 1996.

[Dani_T]

I know I'm very late in getting to this topic, but I just spent quite a while reading the past 9 pages. (Of course, I have lots more threads to go in here too) But... can anyone recommend a book about the case? One that wasn't written by a Darlie supporter - a book that is fairly straightforward. I saw several books mentioned in the last 9 pages, but it sounded like they weren't true to the facts.

Well, any of the books have mistakes in them (which drove me crazy) and they all have some sort of take on Darlie's innocence of guilt. So the best place to look is the transcripts. But that is a big job so for an overview-

Precious Angels - Barabara Davis is fairly decent. She thought Darlie was guilty and does a pretty good job of presenting the evidence. But she has now turned tail and proclaim's Darlie innocence. Doesn't change her book though. Also fairly hard to get!

Hush little babies- Don Davis. Probably a bit more of a balanced view but all the little mistakes in his drove me batty.

Media Tried Justice Denied- Chris W. Brown is only decent for the photos. He has a lot of the crime scene photos in the book. The 'text' part of the book is just full of media articles about the crime and his inspid little comments about what the journalists have written. Full of all sorts of mistakes- the least of which is that he can't spell or use grammar for the life of him.

There is one other one by another woman called 'Flesh & Blood' but I haven't read it so can't recommend it.

Hope that helps. We;d all be happy to answer any question you might have as you read!

[deanws]

OMGosh Jeana..........that song is so inappropriate.:(

[vanillasky]

Jeana - thank you so much!


Dani - thank you also for the book recommendations, I really appreciate it!

[beesy]

[QUOTE=SimonSays Dani - thank you also for the book recommendations, I really appreciate it
Hi there, you've got a lot of reading and catching up to do, don't ya? When I first came on I tried to read all of the posts too, but just gave up and started my own threads.
Flesh and Blood by Patricia Springer is good. Seems to match pretty well with other things I've read or heard. In a saga such as this, it's hard to get every detail right, but hers seems the closest to testimony and other documents. It's also well-written, for a true crime book, of course. Springer has written other true crime books too. Her book is the one I most often use for research.
As Dani said Chris Brown's Media Tried, Justice Denied is full of BEEEP! He is FOR Darlie all the way. He complains mostly about the press getting things wrong which in no way reflects upon the police work. He fusses about photos too: there are several where you can see things and then the next pix show the item removed. This to him is a sign of a set-up. Everybody knows that a photo is 1st taken as the scene was found. Then they move things to check for hidden blood, fingerprints, things like that. That's all that was going on when the pix were different, but he creates some grand conspiracy theory. In fact, many Darlie supporters don't really like him because some of his theories are just weird and he is too.
Barbara Davis' Precious Angels is decent. It reads more like a bodice-ripper beach book than non-fiction. She has the 911 Op. name wrong so it makes you wonder what else is wrong
Don Davis' Hush Little Babies is ok. He's on the fence so tends to throw some Darlie lies in there. He said there was a deer hair on the bloody sock. I don't know where he got that because I've never seen it anywhere else.

[Mary456]

Beesy: "Barbara Davis' Precious Angels is decent. It reads more like a bodice-ripper beach book than non-fiction."

Of the two authors who attended the trial, Don Davis and Barbara Davis, I think Barbara's book is the better of the two. She made some mistakes - they both did - but they were pretty insignificant in the scheme of things. Don Davis was very cut and dried, while Barbara picked up on the body language of the witnesses. Observations that the jurors obviously picked up on, too.

Beesy: "Hush Little Babies is ok. He's on the fence so tends to throw some Darlie lies in there. He said there was a deer hair on the bloody sock. I don't know where he got that because I've never seen it anywhere else."

I hate to tell ya this, Beesy, but there was a hair from the deer family on the sock. It's in Linch's testimony.

[beesy]

Beesy: "Barbara Davis' Precious Angels is decent. It reads more like a bodice-ripper beach book than non-fiction."


Of the two authors who attended the trial, Don Davis and Barbara Davis, I think Barbara's book is the better of the two. She made some mistakes - they both did - but they were pretty insignificant in the scheme of things. Don Davis was very cut and dried, while Barbara picked up on the body language of the witnesses. Observations that the jurors obviously picked up on, too.

ok things like describing a romantic interlude on the sofa while the boys were on the floor sleeping, seemed a little needless to me. And I'm sure I'm wrong, but Darlie didn't have any semen anywhere, so obviously that was just a little made up tale.
Beesy: "Hush Little Babies is ok. He's on the fence so tends to throw some Darlie lies in there. He said there was a deer hair on the bloody sock. I don't know where he got that because I've never seen it anywhere else."


I hate to tell ya this, Beesy, but there was a hair from the deer family on the sock. It's in Linch's testimony.Yeah sure you hate to tell me, you love it and you know it
Fine, great, wonderful, I'll be leaving now. Had tons of fun:woohoo:

[Mary456]

Yeah sure you hate to tell me, you love it and you know it
[/color]Fine, great, wonderful, I'll be leaving now. Had tons of fun:woohoo:

Good grief, Beesy, calm down and take a deep breath! I'm not trying to be a pain in the neck but, honestly, it's the truth. There really was a hair from the deer family found on the sock.

I'm sure you can imagine what the Darlies did with that little tidbit. First, there was a month-long debate about whether a deer had been in the alley during the last hundred years. The deer didn't testify, so we just let it drop.

Not to be outdone, the Darlies concluded that the real killer was a frustrated hunter who missed his shot and took it out on the boys. We all agreed that as soon as he's caught, old bucko's gonna find himself in an anger-management class. :crazy:

[Dani_T]

I'm sure you can imagine what the Darlies did with that little tidbit. First, there was a month-long debate about whether a deer had been in the alley during the last hundred years. The deer didn't testify, so we just let it drop.

Not to be outdone, the Darlies concluded that the real killer was a frustrated hunter who missed his shot and took it out on the boys. We all agreed that as soon as he's caught, old bucko's gonna find himself in an anger-management class. :crazy:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[beesy]

Good grief, Beesy, calm down and take a deep breath! I'm not trying to be a pain in the neck but, honestly, it's the truth. There really was a hair from the deer family found on the sock.

I'm sure you can imagine what the Darlies did with that little tidbit. First, there was a month-long debate about whether a deer had been in the alley during the last hundred years. The deer didn't testify, so we just let it drop.

Not to be outdone, the Darlies concluded that the real killer was a frustrated hunter who missed his shot and took it out on the boys. We all agreed that as soon as he's caught, old bucko's gonna find himself in an anger-management class. :crazy:Well, we still have deer in the city here. It wouldn't be crazy to find a deer hair on a sock around here. Was there a human limb hair on the sock as well? Don says both. I know in the mid-80's that area was still considered "the country". They talk about that in Evidence of Love, remember? Don't know about the mid-90s though. What does LE say? Lynch's testimony you said? Do you know around abouts in the transcripts that is? Maybe somebody threw an old deer head into the trash....:D

[beesy]

Not to be outdone, the Darlies concluded that the real killer was a frustrated hunter who missed his shot and took it out on the boys. We all agreed that as soon as he's caught, old bucko's gonna find himself in an anger-management class. :crazy: Ok I found the part about the deer family hair and the human limb hair. That doesn't really prove anything does it? Don't the Darlies acknowledge
that the sock is Darin's? Granted it's strange, but the sock was found near a sewer and a trash can. I bet they're saying the intruder had the deer hair on him, aren't they? And what does LE say? And what was that about blood being found on the top bunk? Did I read that right? This case just gets deeper and deeper......and more annoying. I know you've been thru all this mess, but I'd like some input as I have none!

[Jeana (DP)]

Well, we still have deer in the city here. It wouldn't be crazy to find a deer hair on a sock around here. Was there a human limb hair on the sock as well? Don says both. I know in the mid-80's that area was still considered "the country". They talk about that in Evidence of Love, remember? Don't know about the mid-90s though. What does LE say? Lynch's testimony you said? Do you know around abouts in the transcripts that is? Maybe somebody threw an old deer head into the trash....:D


I don't remember seeing any deer in the area in the 1990s, but I don't think they vacuum the city. Its entirely possible the wind blew a hair into the alley. Stranger things have happened. It honestly could have come from anywhere.

[Mullins]

Ditto that----A hair can blow in / be carried in from literally anywhere. It was not a closed environment.



I don't remember seeing any deer in the area in the 1990s, but I don't think they vacuum the city. Its entirely possible the wind blew a hair into the alley. Stranger things have happened. It honestly could have come from anywhere.

[beesy]

Ditto that----A hair can blow in / be carried in from literally anywhere. It was not a closed environment. Yes, especially when it was found on a sock right beside a sewer and a trash can. Trash trucks go everywhere and could have anything on them :sick:

[beesy]

And what was that about blood being found on the top bunk? Did I read that right? This case just gets deeper and deeper......and more annoying. I know you've been thru all this mess, but I'd like some input as I have none!:crazy:

[Mary456]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I don't remember seeing any deer in the area in the 1990s, but I don't think they vacuum the city.

The Darlies better get on that right quick. Could add a real punch to the Habeas Corpus appeal :dance:

[Mary456]

And what was that about blood being found on the top bunk? Did I read that right? This case just gets deeper and deeper......and more annoying. I know you've been thru all this mess, but I'd like some input as I have none!:crazy:

Some old, dried blood was found on the blanket of the bottom bunk bed. Darin testified that one night, about two years before, Damon was sleeping on the top bunk & accidentally kicked the railing off, which hit Devon in the head. He bled, and they put a band-aid on it.

Linch lifted up the sheets to see if there was any blood underneath, and there wasn't. It was old blood which had nothing to do with the murders.

[beesy]

Some old, dried blood was found on the blanket of the bottom bunk bed. Darin testified that one night, about two years before, Damon was sleeping on the top bunk & accidentally kicked the railing off, which hit Devon in the head. He bled, and they put a band-aid on it.

Linch lifted up the sheets to see if there was any blood underneath, and there wasn't. It was old blood which had nothing to do with the murders. Ok, thanks! Figured it was unrelated, but this is case is so strange, you never know

[Goody]

Of the two authors who attended the trial, Don Davis and Barbara Davis, I think Barbara's book is the better of the two. She made some mistakes - they both did - but they were pretty insignificant in the scheme of things. Don Davis was very cut and dried, while Barbara picked up on the body language of the witnesses. Observations that the jurors obviously picked up on, too.


Patricia Springer attended the trial, too, didn's she? The last part of her book covered a lot of on the scene (court room) observations. I've also heard that she had a close personal relationship with one of the detectives.

[beesy]

Patricia Springer attended the trial, too, didn's she? The last part of her book covered a lot of on the scene (court room) observations. I've also heard that she had a close personal relationship with one of the detectives. I'm not sure. Springer thanks the court reporter in her acknowledgments. She says in the beginning of the book that she personally interviewed many many people directly involved in the case. She does describe things like Darin and Dana nearly "snuggling" in court and the expressions on Darlie's face throughout much of the testimony

[Goody]

I'm not sure. Springer thanks the court reporter in her acknowledgments. She says in the beginning of the book that she personally interviewed many many people directly involved in the case. She does describe things like Darin and Dana nearly "snuggling" in court and the expressions on Darlie's face throughout much of the testimony
All of the authors did that. I don't think that means she didn't attend the trial. Darin said there were about 5 authors in the court room who planned on writing books on the case. Wonder what happened to the other two.

[beesy]

All of the authors did that. I don't think that means she didn't attend the trial. Darin said there were about 5 authors in the court room who planned on writing books on the case. Wonder what happened to the other two. No, it doesn't mean that. I think Mary mentioned that Springer did not attend, but I'm not sure. Of course Darin would know about the writers wouldn't he, jeez:loser: Weren't they trying to make book/movie deals soon after the murders?

[Mary456]

No, it doesn't mean that. I think Mary mentioned that Springer did not attend, but I'm not sure.

I'm very sorry for my mistake. Patricia Springer did attend the trial.

I was going on memory, which is a dangerous undertaking at my age, lol!

[Goody]

I'm very sorry for my mistake. Patricia Springer did attend the trial.

I was going on memory, which is a dangerous undertaking at my age, lol!
Tell me about it! hahahahahahahah!

[Goody]

No, it doesn't mean that. I think Mary mentioned that Springer did not attend, but I'm not sure. Of course Darin would know about the writers wouldn't he, jeez:loser: Weren't they trying to make book/movie deals soon after the murders?
Some of the writers talked about that in their books. Silver Creek Productions (going from memory here) is who Darin signed with after Darlie's arrest. I just saw something the other day that was done by the same company, another true crime story. But then he supposedly turned around and sold his rights to CWB, who moved in with the Routier family (Sarilda and clan). So who knows exactly what happened. Maybe it was just a way to raise money to hire Mulder once the public defenders made it known they were going to use Darin as an alternative suspect in their defense of Darlie. I imagine the story rights are well protected under CWB's name but it doesn't look like they will ever be worth much.

[SpongeBathHotPants]

I don't know much about this case except what I have read here but I have been reading for 2 days and can't stop wondering what happened that night. Is it possible that her throat was slashed by one of the boys? She takes out her anger at her husband on the kids because she is so self centered and worried about looking perfect that if he leaves everyone will know that she doesn't have the perfect life. The boys are being boys, maybe rough housing and she starts to hit them, maybe one of the boys grabs a knife to "protect" himself and his brother. This is just a thought that came to me. I just don't see her cutting her own throat, I think if she was going to stab herself she would have gone with the stomach or chest. JMO of course.

[Goody]

I don't know much about this case except what I have read here but I have been reading for 2 days and can't stop wondering what happened that night. Is it possible that her throat was slashed by one of the boys? She takes out her anger at her husband on the kids because she is so self centered and worried about looking perfect that if he leaves everyone will know that she doesn't have the perfect life. The boys are being boys, maybe rough housing and she starts to hit them, maybe one of the boys grabs a knife to "protect" himself and his brother. This is just a thought that came to me. I just don't see her cutting her own throat, I think if she was going to stab herself she would have gone with the stomach or chest. JMO of course.
You can't imagine her doing such a thing because it freaks you out just thinking of a butcher knife to your throat. It would freak out most people. But if your life was on the line and you really had to prove you were a victim, too, you might just conquer that fear and do it anyway. It wouldn't have taken more than a second or two to do it, and the angle it is in avoids all he important stuff like windpipe, vocal chords, arteries, etc. Plus it angles downward which is found in many self inflicted neck wounds. That downward angle really gives it away for me. If the knife had been in someone else's hands and he wanted to seriously hurt her, I think the cut would have been more level, from one side of the neck to the other.

Then take her story....she is either laying down on the couch sleeping or struggling with the intruder (which she later changed to two intruders). If she is wiggling around, how would he even get to her neck unless he came in from behind her without stabbing her upper torso, arms, and hands repeatedly? If she were laying down and sleeping, how could he botch it so badly? He would have had a clear shot, so to speak. If he did come up from behind her, nothing would have stopped him from slitting her throat from ear to ear.

And where is the blood that would have been flying around on that sofa? The whole story about the intruder attack is bogus.

And the boys could not have done it. Damon was attacked in the back in his sleep, and Devon never moved from his position on the floor where he slept. Whether he was awake or asleep when attacked, Devon was subdued in seconds. The blood evidence tells us that. Any fight he might have made was probably only defensively and probably only lasted a minute or two at most.

But I am with you about wondering what happened that night. I am convinced Darlie did it, but I don't know why...or what triggered her actions. I would love to know that.

[SpongeBathHotPants]

Plus it angles downward which is found in many self inflicted neck wounds. That downward angle really gives it away for me. If the knife had been in someone else's hands and he wanted to seriously hurt her, I think the cut would have been more level, from one side of the neck to the other.



Ohhhh good point!!!! Nevermind. I have a creative mind but am not that smart LOL...



I guess I hoped that the kids got something out of it (I don't mean that to sound like it does).



I have been reading the transcripts and I think the husband is either a moron or guilty of some thing... or both....

[beesy]

Ohhhh good point!!!! Nevermind. I have a creative mind but am not that smart LOL...



I guess I hoped that the kids got something out of it (I don't mean that to sound like it does).



I have been reading the transcripts and I think the husband is either a moron or guilty of some thing... or both.... Well, we're pretty sure Devon had time to raise his legs and kick at his mother. There is a nick on his buttocks which could have come from a kick causing the knife to slip for a second. There is a theory that Darlie was scared Devon had caused enough bruising for her to decide to become a victim too. None of the murders were well-planned or perfectly executed, but things seem to have gone downhill once she cut her throat. Another theory is that she called 911 before she wanted to because her neck would have bled alot at first and frightened her. She was most likely still trying to wipe up blood and doing whatever else she felt she needed to do while she was on the phone with 911. Luminol picked up invisible blood in a swirl pattern on the kitchen counter and in the sink. So it's believed that she cut her throat there.
This was pointed out to me before because at first I too couldn't stand the thought of cutting your own throat. If you needed to make yourself a victim of a knife attack, could you have thrust a knife into your tummy or chest? And looking at it from her intruder story, the killer would have have better access to that area than to her throat. Also, killers do not typically change MO's, i.e. the boys were stabbed, Darlie was cut. From what I've read and seen there weren't any photos taken of Darlie's torso, which could have been bruised by a kicking Devon. I've always felt that was odd, because most victims/suspects are photographed nude. Maybe they were scared of her boobs.
I call Darin a doofus, bless his heart, but I think he's really wiley, which means he good at deception and can easily put on masks.I believe that he came downstairs and helped her. Read Goody's "The Motive" thread.
Another thing is in one of Darlie's stories she calls the intruder a "blur of a man". I love calling her intruder a blur so if you see that, now you'll understand.

[beesy]

Then take her story....she is either laying down on the couch sleeping or struggling with the intruder (which she later changed to two intruders)
don't forget a blur or blurs,tee hee