View Full Version : 16 Different Versions of Darlie's story
not the 13 I mentioned.
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The following was put together by a poster who was known as Dasgal and/or Jon Galt. She's an ex-cop and someone I consider to be a friend. I'd invite her here to talk with us, but she's so sick of hearing the name Darlie that I'm afraid she'd shoot me. There are actually 16 different versions of Darlie's story, not the 13 I mentioned.
THE MANY STORIES OF DARLIE ROUTIER - TOLD BY THOSE WHO SHE TALKED TO OR HERSELF.
Story 1
Q. Okay. What did she say, or where was she when this all started?
A. She said that she was downstairs in her house, sleeping on the couch. And her two boys were downstairs and they had been watching TV, a big screen TV. And that what started waking her up was her little boy started crying.
Q. Okay. Did she say...where her husband was when all of this was going on?
A. She said that he was upstairs with her little baby.
Q. Okay. So she had been downstairs with her two boys watching TV?
A. Yes.
Q. And that what woke her up was her 5 year old crying?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Then what did she say happened?
A. She said that her -- she felt a struggle like at her neck.
Q. Okay.
A. And the man started wrestling with her.
Q. Pokay. Did she say where she was w this struggle at her neck and the wrestling occurred?
A. She was on the couch.
Q. Okay. What's the next thing that she told you?
A. She said that she started yelling and that he ran off and he had dropped the knife and she picked it up.
Q. Okay. Did she say which way that he ran?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Did she describe to you where she went to pick up the knife?
A. No.
Q. Did she tell you anything that happened when he was running away after she yelled out?
A. She said that he ran into a wine rack holder.
Q. Okay.
A. And that it made a big crack noise.
Q. He ran into a wine rack holder?
A. Um-hum.(Witness nodding head affirmatively).
Q. Okay. And, what happened when he ran into the wine rack holder?
A. Well, that's when she really think that's when she really started waking up. That's what she said.
Q. She heard a loud crack noise?
A. Um-hum.(Witness nodding head affirmatively).
Q. And then he dropped the knife; that right?
A. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head affirmatively).
Story 1
Q. Did she -- well, what's the next thing she told you?
Story 1
A. She said that she remembered that it was -- the knife came from her butcher block from her kitchen because it had a white handle on it.
Q. Okay. Now, were you asking her questions during this?
A. The only one that I asked her was how she knew it was hers. She said because it had a white handle.
Q. Oh, okay, regarding the knife?
A. Um-hum.(Witness nodding head affirmatively).
Q. What did she say she did then?
A. She turned the light on and she saw her two boys laying on the floor and she screamed. And she just, when she was telling me this, she just kept saying there was just blood everywhere. And then, she said her husband came downstairs, and that's when she had realized she had been stabbed. And he started doing CPR on the little boy and she called 911.
Q. Her husband came down after she screamed?
A. Um-hum.(Witness-nodding head affirmatively).
Q. And did CPR on the little boy?
A. Um-hum.(Witness nodding head affirmatively.)?
Q. And she called 911?
A. Um-hum.(Witness nodding head affirmatively.)
Q. Did she tell you anything else about what happened?
A. Well, she just said when her husband was doing CPR that he kept saying,"Hang in there, babies. Hang in there.,, And she said there was just blood everywhere.
Q. Okay. When she told you this story, what was her demeanor?
A. She was pretty calm when she was talking. I just remember looking at the cardiac monitor and her heart rate had gone up just a little bit.
Q. Okay. Was she crying at all when she she told you the story?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Did you see her cry some during the night when you were with her?
A. I saw -- her eyes would get a little wet, but I never really saw tears-go-.down her face.
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Story 2
Q. What is the first version of the attack that the defendant gave to you? What did she first tell you happened out there on that evening?
A. Just that she had felt that Damon waking her up saying,"Mommie, Mommie, Mommie. And then she looks up over her and she sees a glimpse of this man going towards -- I don't know how, probably, maybe at the island, I don't know -- going from the kitchen, probably two to three seconds of a glimpse of this man going into the utility room and then gone.
Q. I want to make sure that -- I want to be clear about what you said. You said that she said that she felt Damon touch her?
A. Touch her on shoulder and he woke her up.
Q. Okay. And he was saying something to her?
A."Mommie, Mommie, Mommie.
Q. Okay. And, she then woke up and saw a man walking away through the kitchen?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he then walked into the utility room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And, what did she say that she did as this man got up and walked away from her into the utility room?
A. She said that he had already gone out of the utility room, and then she went around towards him, and Damon was standing right beside her, and she asked him to stay back, and she walked across the room, across the kitchen, and when she looked down, there was a knife, and then, right there in the doorway, and she said that she reached down to pick it up and when she did, her neck just spewed blood all over the floor. That is when she realized she was cut.
Q. Okay.
A. And she walks back and turns on the light, and then she sees Devon face up, and then she just goes into hysterics.
Q. Okay.
A. Screaming,"Devon, Devon, Devon".
Q. Does that pretty much pick it up, where you start your statement, where you hear her saying, Devon Devon, Devon," you come downstairs; right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. When did she first tell you that story?
A. Probably at the hospital, or later that afternoon. I couldn't be in the room with her for longer than 10 or 15 minutes at a time.
Q. All right. So sometime in the afternoon of June the 6th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, I assume that you have talked with her since then about what happened out there that night, haven't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And in your discussions with her, has she ever told you a different version of what happened?
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Story 3
Q. Okay. Do you remember saying to her that you told Jamie Johnson that Darlie told you that she woke up because there was weight on her legs and the intruder supposedly was sitting on her legs? Do you remember telling Jamie Johnson that that is the version that your wife gave to you about this attack?
A. We didn't know if that was really true or not. We didn't know if that was a dream.
Q. Well, Jamie Johnson, when you discussed this incident with her, this was the version that you gave to Jamie Johnson, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So, when you talked with Jamie Johnson, you didn't give her the correct version of what your wife had told you, did you?
A. We didn't know -- I mean I wasn't there when it happened, so I don't know what exactly happened. I just know what she told me and what she told me was that she woke up with Damon tugging on her.
Q. You never told that to Jamie Johnson though, did you?
A. I don't recall. About that Damon woke her up?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I would think I would, that has never changed.
Q. Well, but as you sit there on the stand right now, you don't know whether you told her that or not, do you?
A. I don't know what I said to Jamie Johnson.
Q. Do you remember describing to Jaime Johnson how the attacker would have to cut Darlie's neck, and how he would have to get past her breasts in order to get at her neck? Do you remember telling Jamie Johnson that?
A. No, sir.
Q. And do you remember telling Jaime Johnson that your wife would have been face-to-face with this attacker?
A. No, sir.
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Old 08-30-2004, 04:01 PM
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Story 4
Q. Mr. Routier, again going back to Coreen Wells, again, do you recall Coreen Wells is the individual, the lady that lives there at the house that you used to live at on Bond Street? Do you remember that?
A. Yes, sir, I didn't know her name.
Q. Right. Okay. Do you remember when you went over to talk with her on December the 3rd, in fact, you went into your wife's version of attack with Coreen Wells also, didn't you?
A. Well, I had a good talk with her.
Q. And it included what your wife had told you about the attack, correct?
A. I don't think she remembers any of the attack.
Q. Well, my question to you is: Did you tell Coreen Wells what your wife had related to you about the attack?
A. No.
Q. So, you did not tell Coreen Wells that the man was on top of her, and was intending to rape her when she woke up? You didn't tell Coreen Wells that?
A. That would be my assumption.
Q. From what your wife had told you?
A. No. My assumption of everything I know. I know everything about this case.
Q. Well, let me just ask you then: Did you tell Coreen Wells that the man was on top of your wife and was intending to rape her? Did you say that to Coreen Wells?
A. I said that could very well be.
Q. So that is a yes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did also tell Coreen Wells that what they had read in the paper about the boys saving Darlie's life by waking her up was not true, and in fact, the boys didn't save her life?
A. I did not say that.
Q. Do you remember telling Coreen Wells that the boys couldn't save her life because their lungs had been collapsed by the stabbing?
A. No, sir, I did not say that.
Q. And do you remember telling Coreen Wells, in fact, that a pound man did this to Darlie?
A. No, sir.
Q. So those statements about the boys not saving her life, and about a pound man attacking Darlie, those statements aren't true, are they?
A. We know that Damon saved Darlie's life.
Q. Okay. Well, that is not what you told Coreen wells though, is it? I don't remember what I said to her.
Q. Well, that was a pretty long conversation that you had with her too, wasn't it?
A. Yes, we had a good talk.
Story 5
Q. What did she tell you?
A. She told us, at that time, that an intruder, and --- well -- she had awoken to find an intruder over her. She struggled with the intruder. She saw him with the knife. I asked her to describe this person, at which time she started to describe the person, and I asked her to stop for a minute and let's start from the very top of what he was wearing.
Q. Okay. What did she tell you?
A. She said that he was wearing a black cap.
Q. And I said,"Was the bill to the front of the face or was it turned around backwards?"
A. And, she said the bill was to the front.
Q. Okay.,
A. I asked her if she remembered seeing any writing on it. She didn't see any writing or no pictures. I asked her whether she knew if it was a fitted cap, or if it was one that you had to adjust. She did not know. I asked her on the cap, if she could describe his hair, and she said it was a dark color brown, that was shoulder length. it appeared to be straight.
Q. I asked her to describe his face. And she could not describe any part of his face. I asked her to describe what he was wearing, and she said he was wearing a black T-shirt. And I asked her if it was a black pull over T-shirt or a button down T-shirt, and she said it was a pull over, that it didn't have any buttons on it. Didn't have a collar on it, and it was short sleeved.
Q. All right.
A. I asked her if it had any writing or designs on it, and she said she didn't see any.
Q. I asked her about a belt. She couldn't remember if there was a belt or not. I asked her about his jeans. The bluejeans, I asked her if he could remember if they were blue bluejeans or a different color. She said blue. She couldn't remember any labels on the jeans.
Q. Okay.
A. I asked her about his shoes and socks and she didn't remember any shoes or socks. I asked her because it had a been a short sleeved T-shirt, if she saw any tattoos or scars on his arms, and she said, no that she didn't remember any scars or tattoos
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Old 08-30-2004, 04:02 PM
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Story 6
Q. You come back into this area again. Now what do you do?
A. I asked her again for a description of the suspect. And, she told me she didn't know if it was a white or a black guy, but that he was wearing a black shirt, dark pants and a ball cap.
Q. Again, a black ball cap and a dark shirt?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Didn't know whether he was white or black?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Did she give you any other information at that time about this person, or what may have happened?
A. She told me what had happened.
Q. Okay. Just tell the members of the jury what the defendant told you had happened right there.
A. She told me that she had got into a fight with somebody that broke into her house. See fought with the suspect. She told me she fought with him at the end of the bar here, and that he ran across the kitchen.
Q. All right. Did she describe what kind of fight had occurred here in this area?
A. She had just said that she fought with him.
Q. All right. Are you sure it was this area that she was indicating too?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How was she indicating that area between the family room and the kitchen as being the place of the struggle?
A. She was telling me that she was
LATER
And, what did she do?
A. Nothing. She kept telling me that when she chased the suspect across the kitchen, that he had dropped the knife by the utility -- somewhere over here in this area, and that she had picked up the knife and brought it back and set it on the counter. And she told me that she thought she had messed up the fingerprints.
Story 7
Tell the jury what she told you had happened to her.
A. She told me that she heard Damon going "Mommie, Mommie". He leaned on her saying,"Mommie, Mommie". And she felt pressure on her legs, and she openedher eyes and the man was coming down straight with a knife at throat, and then if she didn't put her arm up, he would have killed her.
Q. Then what did she say happened?
A. Damon -- she didn't see nothing more, but she says that she picks up, maybe-I'm not remembering correctly, but Damon was following her. She was going after a man through the kitchen. It was the kitchen, she was going after the man. And Damon was behind her and she told -- she pushed him and told him to go back, to wait for her,"just wait for Mommie". And she went out to the garage, and that's all she said.
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Old 08-30-2004, 04:06 PM
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Story 8 is pretty long, may take up more than one post:
Story 8
Q. what was the next thing that happened?
A. It was around, I want to say about 8:30, and I told the boys that they needed to tell their friends, you know, that they needed to go home, that it was time to come in. I think Devon had said something about wanting to spend the night with a friend, but he had just had a little boy named Michael over the night before, and plus, they had kind of gotten in a little bit of trouble, for emptying out, all of the water in the hot tub from their father. So, any way, he was told that he couldn't have Jonathan to spend the night. That he could have him spend the night another night.
Q. Okay. Darin left to take Dana home?
A. Yeah. After the boys came in, I guess everybody has seen the pictures, but when you walk into the house through the sliding glass doors, I had these, like plastic runners down on the floor, and, there was a reason for that, because the boys liked to run in and out of the house soaking wet. And, they track in, you know, they track in a lot of dirt and stuff on their feet. And, when they came in, I told them that they needed to go upstairs and get dry clothes on. And, they went upstairs, and I vacuumed over there, 4836 I because they had drug in quite a bit of dirt of of their feet. A few minutes later, the boys came downstairs with their pillows and blankets and asked if they could watch TV downstairs. A little bit after that, 1 asked Darin if he could drive Dana home. And he said he would.
Q. Okay. About how long was Darin gone?
A. Maybe 30 minutes.
Q. Okay. And you said that you had used the vacuum cleaner to sweep up there in the den; is that right?
A. Yeah, over by the sliding glass doors.
Q. Okay. And, do you recall where the-where you would have left the vacuum cleaner after 16 you had cleaned up? Do you remember?
A. I think it was right over by where the outlet was, over by the down from the sliding glass doors.
Q. Out by the bar?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, Darin got home, about what time is it now, Darlie?
A. It was probably a little bit after 10:00 o'clock. L 4837
Q. Okay. And where were the boys?
A. Devon had fallen asleep in front of the TV and Damon was laying down in front of'the TV, and he had not fallen asleep yet.
Q. Okay?
A. Drake was on me, laying on me. I was laying on the couch.
Q. Okay. And, did you and Darin call when he came in -- I mean, did you and Darin talk when he came in?
A. Yeah, when Darin came in, the baby was getting pretty fussy, and so I made him a bottle and Darin said that he was going to take him upstairs and rock him. I usually rocked him every night and sang to him, and Darin said that he was going to do that, and he wanted to watch the news. I don't really like to watch the news. I think there is too much negative stuff on the news. But any way, I was watching something else. I don't know what I was watching, but I was watching something else on TV.
Q. Did you all have a big screen TV set downstairs as well?
A. Yeah, it was an older one, but yes. 4838
Q. In the family room?
A. Um-hum.(Witness nodding head affirmatively). Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And, I'll ask you if Darin eventually came down from upstairs?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did y'all continue to talk?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Okay. Do you recall when you decided that you would spend the night downstairs?
A. It was sometime after that.
Q. Okay. And how were you dressed at that time?
A. I just had on a T-shirt and panties. Or not really a T-shirt, it was like a night shirt, a little bit longer than a regular T-shirt.
Q. Okay. Kind of an over sized T-shirt?
A. Yeah.
Q. That ladies wear?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, I'll ask you if we have had occasion to listen to the 911 tape, Darlie?
A. Yes, sir. Several times
Q. And have we -- a number of times, haven't we? 4839
A. Yes.
Q. And, have we looked at the State's transcription of the 911 tape and listen to the tape itself, to check it's accuracy?
A. Many times.
Q. Okay. And, in listening to the 911 tape, have we made some corrections in the State's version?
A. Some.
Q. Okay. Let me hand you what has been marked for identification for record purposes, as defendant's exhibit number 96-A, and I'll ask you if this shows the State's version of the transcript of the 911 tape, and in -- we where there is discrepancy, or we think we hear something different, we have put in, bold print, italics, what we believe is actually said?
A. Right underneath it?
Q. Yes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And then on, defendant's exhibits number 96-B, it is simply our version of what the 911 tape says, without calling attention to it, and we have excised what the State has in places that we 4840 disagree; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. All right.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We would offer in evidence what has been marked for identification, for record purposes as, Defendant's exhibit Number 96.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: And, Sandy, what I'm going to do, is just mark this our version as 96, and with the 96-A is,the enhanced version.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, we would offer in evidence --. 4841
MR. TOBY SHOOK:: Which is it? The first one or both?
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We're going to offer both into evidence.
MR. TOBY SHOOK: I may take the witness on voir dire, Judge?
THE COURT: You may indeed. VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION BY
MR. TOBY SHOOK:
Q. So I take it, Mrs. Routier, that I guess, is it 96-A, has in heavy print, another interpretation that you listened to, that you think the 911 tape says?
A. Yes, sir, it's not that much different.
Q. Okay. So any time we see a bold printing, that is what you think is different?
A. Yes.
Q. You think that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you interpret this tape, or did have you any help interpreting this tape? 4842 As far as what I heard, I interpreted it. there were other people listening as well.
Q. Who else was listening?
A. Lloyd Harrellson.
Q. Is that Mr. Harrell?
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Harrell.
THE WITNESS: Harrell, I'm sorry. And I think Preston also. BY
MR. TOBY SHOOK:
Q. Mr. Douglass here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Are all of changes here, were those your ideas or did they hear things that you didn't hear and have those put in also?
A. It was a group effort, but I went through most of it too, and whatever I made, I wrote down on paper, next to what they said, and they went over it, and then they listened to see if they could hear the same things that I heard.
Q. And then you had this printed up to show your interpretation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. 4843
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more of Story 8
MR. TOBY SHOOK: All right, no objection then, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Both defendant's exhibits number 96 and 96-A are admitted.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Okay. I would like to pass these out to the jurors.
THE COURT: You may.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right. Let me show you this, so it doesn't get any more confusing than it has to. This is,-- pass those around. Okay. Pass those around. All right. All right.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right. Now the one I am handing you now is, it shows the State version as well.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
Q. Darlie, let me ask you this: When you see something written on the TV screen, do you have a tendency to hear what you read?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TOBY SHOOK: Judge, we will object 4844 to leading.
THE COURT: Sustain the objections Phrase the questions properly, please.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: What I would like to do, Judge, is play this once with the jury following the 911 tape. And where they can see the --
THE COURT: That's fine.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I want them to listen to it, and where they see the italicized part, they will know there is discrepancy there, and then I want to play it again for them, once they understand where the problems are, and then I want to play it again for them, looking at our version.
THE COURT: Okay. You are going to play it three times?
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Yes, sir, well that is fine. That is fine. All right.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Our electrician a little --
THE COURT: All right. While we're assembling all of the mechanical devices, we are going to take a 10 minute break.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURT: All right. Be seated please. Bring the jury in please. THE COURT: All right. Let the record 46
A. As chaotic as it was, I definitely think that is a possibility.
Q. But if your talking to Waddell, and you are speaking into the phone and the communications operator doesn't know but what you are talking to her?
A. Yeah whatever she would be hearing.
Q. Okay. Likewise, if you answer your husband, and you are still talking into the phone, she would have reason to believe that ---
A. Oh, that I was talking to her. Yeah.
Q. Of course.
A. Yeah, yeah.
Q. And, at one point, toward the end, initially there is a, the communications officer says "don't touch anything." And you said something about a knife, and she said,"Don't touch anything." And you said,"I have already picked it up," or,"I have already touched it.,, Words to that effect?
A. Yes, so I have heard several times.
Q. Okay. Now, in another situation in there, Officer Waddell says something about a knife?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And you made a remark to him?
A. Yes, sir. 4848
Q. There is also, a - in the conversation there, there is a direction, and of course you were here when Waddell testified and said he didn't recognize his voice saying to get the rags?
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Old 08-30-2004, 04:09 PM
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and more of Story 8
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that Waddell? Or was that Darin?
A. No, sir, that was not Waddell. I know my husband's voice.
Q. All right.
A. I have listened to that tape many times.
Q. Okay.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, what I would like to suggest to the jury, is that they listen to the tape with our bold print italicized part first, so you know where our discrepancies are, and then.
THE COURT: All right roll the tape then.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: And then once you have spotted that, I would like to have you play it again so you can hear it again like that, and then I would like to play it again for you a third time, where you can just here our version.
THE COURT: All right. If you will proceed please, Mr. Douglass.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir. All right. This is the right one without the cover sheet on it. Everybody got it? Okay.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, now that they have kind of identified the areas, we would like to play it through one more time like this. And then finally play it through with them not looking at this, but just looking at our version, and so they can check it.
THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: By now, if you will look at this thing, now that you have identified it, and then we will go through it with ours.
THE COURT: All right, let's go.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, now what I would like for them to do, is to take our version and listen to it, and that is the one with the cover sheet on it.
THE COURT: Okay. Is everybody ready? BY
MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
Q. There is a word in there, Darlie, that they say is fighting and you said:
A. Frightened.
Q. Frightened? It sounds like
A. I didn't say fighting.
Q. All right. Darlie, what is the very. next thing that you remember, that you either felt or heard or saw? 4865 The next thing that I remember is Damon hitting my right shoulder, and he said "Mommiell, or he said "Mommie, Mommie," I'm not sure, but he said,"Mommie". I looked up, and you've got to remember that I'm in a -- I am not completely awake, you know, when you first wake up, you are not completely wide awake. And there was a man, that was down, going away from the couches, walking away from me. I started to get up and when I stood up I heard noise like glass breaking. I started to walk towards the kitchen, Damon was behind me, and when I got to the kitchen, I put my hand back here for Damon to stay. And when I got to the kitchen, I could see the guy going into the utility room.
Q. Were the lights on?
A. No, sir, the lights were off.
Q. Okay. So the area was illuminated by the big screen TV set only?
A. There was a little bit of -- yeah, I mean, there was a little bit of light, I don't know what you would call that, just kind of a-
Q. Okay.
A. A glare, maybe.
Q. All right. Okay. What happened? 4866 I started to take a couple of steps into the kitchen, and I realized that lights were off, so I turned back around, and I flipped the lights on real quick. I started to walk into the kitchen.
Q. Where was the man by this time?
A. He was gone, he was out of my sight.
Q. All right.
A. I got into the kitchen, and I got to where the island is, there is an island in the middle of the kitchen. I got to where the island was, and it was at that moment that realized that I had blood on me. And I kept going, walking a little bit, and I saw a knife laying in the utility room. The knife wasn't completely the whole way in the utility room, it was just like, a little bit into the doorway of the utility room. It was an instinct -- I picked up the knife it was an instinct to pick up the knife. I didn't think about it. It was just and instinct. I picked up the knife, I brought the knife back to the kitchen counter, and set it up on the kitchen counter. At that time, I started to walk into the living room and it was at that time that I saw Devon, and he was laying on the floor, and he wasn't moving and his eyes were open and he had, cuts on him that were so 4867 I big.
Q. Did you say say anything at that time?
A. I screamed "Devon." I screamed out and that I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was at that time that I turned back around and I went to Damon, and Damon was standing up still.
Q. Could you see that he had been hurt or cut or anything at that point?.
A. Not at that time, I couldn't see that he had been hurt. I just started checking all over him and when I turned him around I could see big huge wounds, through his shirt. I started screaming, and I ran into the entrance way, and I flipped on the lights real quick, and I was screaming Darin, Devon, Darin and Devon, and, we ran back into hallway, Darin went over to Devon, I went into the kitchen and flipped the lights on, and I grabbed the phone, and I went to the drawer where there's towels in the drawer, and I went to the drawer, and I went over to the sink and I got the towels wet.
Q. Did you have all the lights on now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay.
A. Yes.
Q. So the area of both the den and the kitchen was fully illuminated? 4868 Yes, sir.
Q. You went over to the kitchen, you got to the phone and then what did do you?
A. I went to the kitchen, and I got the phone, and then I went to the drawer and I got the towels and then I went to the sink.
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still more of Story 8
Q. Okay. Why did you get the towels?
A. I just wanted to help to stop the bleeding. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do. I was just reacting.
Q. Okay. So you got the towels?
A. I got the towels and I went to the sink and I got the towels wet.
Q. All right. Were you on phone with 911?
A. At that time, at that time, I think 911 came on.
Q. Okay. I don't know what I said, I mean,--
Q. Do you know if you started, if you got the towels before you called 911, or you called 911 before you got the towels, or did it all happen about the same time?
A. Yeah, I mean, I got the towels, and I was calling 911 as I got the towels. 4869 All right. And after you got the towels wet, did you take those to Darin?
A. I got a couple of towels wet, I went to Damon first.
Q. Okay.
A. I put a towel on Damon's back. There's been a lot of controversy that I didn't do that, but I did do that. I put a towel on my baby's back.
Q. You were the only one -- the police didn't get any towels out, did they?
A. No, sir, the police did not get any towels out.
Q. Darin didn't get any towels out?
A. Darin didn't get any towels out. Darin was trying to save Devon.
Q. All right. So you got the towels and you took them to Damon?
A. I put a towel on Damon, then I told 19 him to hold on. I said,"Hold on, baby.,, And he said,"Okay, Mommie.11 That is the last thing that he said to me.
Q. All right. Darlie, just tell us, as best you recall, what happened after that?
A. I went over to Darin, and Darin was down and he was breathing into Devon's mouth, and I 4870 didn't know - how to do C P R, I didn't even know, no what I was doing. When Daring was blowing into Devon's mouth, you could see some blood coming out of his wounds on the side of his chest.
Q. All right. What did you do?
A. I didn't know what to do. All I did was just put a towel on it. I didn't know what to do.
Q. How did you put the towel down?
A. I just put the towel on top of his chest wound.
Q. Okay.
A. After that, I ran back and I think that is when I ran, and I screamed for Karen across the street, because I didn't know what to do, and I knew I had to get help.
Q. Karen is the nurse?
A. Karen is the nurse, and she is one of my best friends, and I knew she would know what to do.
Q. Okay.
A. So I called for Karen,
Q. Did you get more towels? Did you go back on forth to the sink?
A. Yes, sir, I got more towels, I got another towel, I didn't know what I was doing. I got another towel, and I went back to the sink, and I got 4871 another towel, I put another towel beside Damon and I told him to hang on again, he was still alive, he was still trying to breath.
Q. What was Darin doing at this time?
A. Darin was still with Devon.
Q. All right. Were y'all frantic?
A. Yes, sir, very much. Can you imagine, your babies are dying in front of you. What do you do? What do you do?
Q. Both of you were frantic?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you keep talking to 911, or do you know?
A. I don't even remember. There was so much going on at one time it was crazy.
Q. Did the police come?
A. Yes, sir, an officer came.
Q. All right. Did Officer Waddell come?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. okay.
A. Officer Waddell came in. I was standing over at the kitchen bar, and I was leaning over the vacuum cleaner that was there earlier, because I was a little dizzy and I couldn't breath very good. That vacuum cleaner right there. 4872
Q. Did you know how badly you had been hurt at that time?
A. No, C A P T I O NI didn't know, I had seen my neck in the mirror.
Q. Where is mirror located?
A. The mirror is located, behind the wine rack in the kitchen.
Q. Okay. So it's obscured somewhat by the wine glasses and the wine bottles?
A. It's behind the wine rack.
Q. Okay. In this area?
A. Can you see that?
A. Yeah, that is where it's at.
Q. Okay. That is the wine rack?
A. Yes.
A. There is a mirror back here on the wall?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Was Waddell as consumed and taken aback by the horror of the scene as y'all were?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he of much help?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Did you -- you heard this 911 tape, 20 times I bet, haven't you? Yes, I have heard it a lot.
Q. okay. When we tried to figure out what was going on, and what was being said, and who was saying what?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And you talk at times to Waddell, do you not?
A. I believe so, yes, sir.
Q. All right. You are carrying on a number of conversations with a number of people?
A. I'm talking to a lot of different people. I didn't even know really what was going on.
Q. All right. At any rate, did the paramedics get there?
A. Waddell was in the living room, and he told me to sit down or lay down, I don't remember which, and I did that.
Q. You had been holding on to the vacuum cleaner?
A. I had just been leaning over it for support, just to keep myself up. When I sat down, I kind of took the vacuum cl(!aner with me.
LATER
Q. Okay. I'll try to keep my questions real simple. Okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Now, apparently this man who crept into your house in the early morning hours of the 6th was able to murder your children, wound you, and leave the one witness that could put him on death row?
A. I think that he thought I was dead.
Q. Okay. He left the one witness who could cause his conviction and put him on death row alive?
A. Again, I think he thought I was dead.
Q. Well, were you not moving or something?
A. I don't remember that much, sir.
Q. Then, how would you know he would think that you were dead?
A. Because he was walking away from me.
Q. And you were just laying there?
A. Yes.
Q. I mean, he had to get close enough for you to be able to identify him, wouldn't he, Mrs. Routier?
A. I would think so.
Q. Okay. Well, I mean you have got your throat cut, he has to do that, he has to get right up on you, doesn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Face to face?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay and, has to be in that room while your children are killed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Lets me ask you this, do you think that you slept while that man stabbed your boys? 4925 I have no idea.
Q. Well do you think you could have slept through that?
A. I don t know How to answer that, because I don't know.
Q. You are a light sleeper, aren't you?
A. I wouldn't necessarily call it a light sleeper.
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More of Story 8
Q. Well, don't you wake up whenever the baby moves in his crib?
A. Yes, sir, but that is not exactly a real light noise.
Q. So, when you baby rolls over, you wake up?
A. His crib is on a hardwood floor and it has rollers on it, and when he wiggles and moves, it shakes the whole crib, and it makes, I mean, it's a pretty loud noise.
Q. That is why you were sleeping downstairs, right?
A. It's one of the reasons, yes.
Q. I mean, that is what you put in your voluntary statement, did you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I mean, no one forced you to write 4926 that down, did they?
A. No, sir.
Q. I mean, this is in your handwriting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And don't you say,"I had been sleeping on the couch the past week or so off and on because the baby slept in our room, in the crib, and when he moved he woke me up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So you are a light sleeper, aren't you?
A. To some degree.
Q. And, how close would you say Damon was to you when you went to sleep?
A. How close was Damon?
Q. Yes, how close was he?
A. He was very close.
Q. I mean within one foot, wasn't he?
A. Pretty much so, yes.
Q. Easily within one foot, lying there right beside you?
A. Yes, on the floor.
Q. Do you think that you could have slept through a man stabbing him four times in the back?
A. Again, I have no idea. 4927 Well, you know yourself pretty good, do you think you could have slept through that?
A. Sir, I cannot answer that'. I cannot remember.
Q. Do you think you could have slept when this man stabbed your 7 year old Devon?
A. I can't answer that question.
Q. He was only about four or five feet away from you, wasn't he?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Well, you are a mother aren't you?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. And don't mothers, aren't mothers able to tell when their children are in trouble?
A. I would like to think so.
Q. Aren't they known for being able to hear those noises?
A. Have an instinct.
Q. Have that instinct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So, don't you think that you would have woken up if a man started stabbing you?
A. I have no idea of what happened that night.
Q. Well certainly you would you have 4928 woken up when he started beating you, wouldn't you?
A. I have assumed that that is what happened, yes, sir.
Q. I mean, you would have to be awake to take a beating like that?
A. I would assume so, yes, sir.
Q. And, it's your arms that were beaten, weren't they?
A. As far as I know, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. I mean, you weren't hit in the face, that's for sure, were you?
A. Directly in the face?
Q. Yes, we can't see any bruises on your face, can we?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. And you weren't stabbed in your face, were you?
A. Not stabbed. There were marks on my face.
Q. You weren't beaten in the chest, stomach, back?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Well did you ever see any bruises in your chest, in your back?
A. Not bruises, but there was a mark on my breast.
Q. But no bruises?
A. No bruises.
Q. Okay. You didn't complain to the doctors about a big headache, about being whacked in the head, or being bumped on the head?
A. Actually I did complain about feeling pain. I didn't complain specifically what areas, I was hurting all over from head to toe.
Q. Certainly you are going to wake up -- or your are going to wake up when he cut your throat aren't you?
A. I have no idea, I would assume so.
Q. You wouldn't sleep through that, would you?
A. I don't know what happened. I would assume so, but I cannot remember.
Q. Do you really think that you could have slept when the man cut your throat?
A. I don't think so.
Q. You couldn't have slept when you got stabbed in the arm either, could you?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Okay. And, if you had awakened, if you had wokenup, when your children were attacked, you 4930 would have screamed, wouldn't you?
A. Unless my mouth was covered.
Q. Well, I mean that would -- I guess are there more than one man attacking you?
A. I have no idea, sir.
Q. I mean, if there was just one guy, he can only do one thing at a time, can't he?
A. Um --.
Q. You only saw one man, didn't you?
A. I only saw one man, yes, sir.
Q. Walking away from you. And if there just one man attacking your kids, and you saw him, you would jump up and defend your children, wouldn't you?
A. I would think so, but again, I cannot remember.
Q. You would think you would get up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And defend your children?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Don't you know you would do that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I mean you would defend them with your life, wouldn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If you saw a man attacking your 4931 children, you would scream your head off, wouldn't you?
A. Yes, sir, unless my mouth was covered.
Q. You would scream for you husband, wouldn't you?
A. Unless my mouth was covered, yes, sir.
Q. You didn't have problems screaming for him when he finally got up and came down there, did you?
A. My mouth was not covered.
Q. Did you find any tape, or any gauze or anything stuffed in your mouth that showed it to be covered?
A. No just except for that it was torn up inside.
Q. Okay. It was all torn up inside.
A. Well, it felt raw.
Q. Did you talk to the doctors about that?
A. I talked to the nurse about that, yes I did.
Q. There is no way you could be prevented from defending your children, and sounding the alarm, if you had seen them being attacked?
A. What do you mean -- I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Q. Well if you had woken up, and some man stabbing your children, you would have tried to stop him, wouldn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. But you have no memory of any of that?
A. No, sir.
Q. You must have been beaten first, wouldn't you say?
A. Sir, I have no idea. I have sat for seven months, and tried to think of every possible thing I could think of what this man did to me.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't know if you were stabbed first, or beaten on the arms first?
A. I have no idea. I don't remember.
Q. And what is the description that you remember, the best description that you have of this man?
A. It's not much, he was a taller man, with dark hair.
Q. Okay. Let's start with that. How tall was he?
A. I cannot give you an exact-I mean, I can just tell you that he was above, I would think above 6 foot. I
Q. okay. Above 6 foot?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe you said that he was along Chris Frosch's build; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you talking about height-wise?
A. Build wise.
Q. Okay. And,--
A. I mean, I haven't seen Chris Frosch in, you know, I have just seen him in dress clothes, but he seems to be about the same build.
Q. Okay. So he is the same height and build as this man walking away?
A. Well, approximately yes.
Q. Okay. So the man is over 6 foot you would say?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was a white male?
A. I don't know that for sure.
Q. Okay. What kind of hair did he have?
A. He had longer hair.
Q. How long was it?
A. Like here.
Q. Okay.
A. Whatever you call that. To his collar?
A. Yeah.
Q. What color was it?
A. Well, as far as I could tell, it was dark, because it was dark in there.
Q. Okay. And the build he had, he was built like Chris Frosch?
A. To some degree, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Well, to what degree was he not?
A. Sir, you are asking me to be specific about something that I cannot be specific about.
Q. Okay. And, you saw his back and that was all?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. As he walked away?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You didn't yell out for Darin when you saw this man walking?
A. Actually, it happened all so quick I did yell out for Darin, but it was after a couple of seconds that the guy had already walked out.
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Yup, still on Story 8:
Q. While were you still on the couch?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. While you were in the kitchen? Cou A Yes, sir.
Q. That is when you yelled out for Darin?
A. That is the first time, yes, sir.
Q. Who -- in talking to Doctor Clayton yesterday, who is Glen?
A. I really don't know Glen that well. Glen was somebody that came into the shop. I think that he knew one of the men beside -- that works beside our shop.
Q. Okay.
A. And he had come in, and he had said some things to Basia, Barbara, and they weren't very nice things, and I guess his wife was having some problems with that. And, his wife called, and I told her that -- what he did.
Q. You told his wife?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was this?
A. This was about a year and a half ago.
Q. Okay. And then, what happened? Did he threaten you in some way?
A. Yes, he threatened me later over the phone.
Q. Okay. How long ago was this?
A. It was about, oh, not quite a year and icial Court R a half.
Q. Okay. And you say that you gave the police his name?
A. I told them Glen. I don't think I gave them the last name, because I didn't know his last name at that time.
Q. What is his last name?
A. Mize.
Q. Okay. Now, you did you tell them this guy that just threatened you or did this the guy look like the--
A. Yeah, I just told them -- they just asked me if there was anybody that we thought I mean, they asked me and Darin together, at one time, if there was anybody that we thought, you know, had ever threatened us or anything like that.
Q. You are not saying this Glen guy did the killing, are you?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, does he look like the guy?
A. Well, I have not realy seen Glen.
Q. Well, when you had seen him, did he look like him?,
A. Well I haven't seen Glen.
Q. Well, what does he look like? A Glen?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know what he looks like?
A. Not to give you a detailed description, no.
Q. You have never seen him before?
A. No. I saw him when we walked in to go and to talk to Basia, but that was a year and a half ago, and I really wasn't paying that much attention.
Q. Okay. So you really don't know what this Glen guy looks like?
A. Not really. No, sir. I mean, we have people walk in and out of our shop.
Q. Okay. You can't tell us if he is a tall guy, or short guy, or fat guy or skinny guy?
A. No, sir.
Q. So you don't know if, he would look :L9 anything like this man you saw walking away?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. So you just told that - you told the police this Glenn guy had threatened you at some point in the past?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think you would recognize Glen ici saw him again?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, we will give it a try.
A. Okay.
MR. TOBY SHOOK: Y'all just come on up here, please.
MR. TOBY SHOOK: All right. Y'all just come on up here please. All right. Stand right here for me please. Okay? BY
MR. TOBY SHOOK:
Q. All right. Do you recognize him as being Glen Mize?
A. Yeah, but the hair looks longer.
Q. Okay. But this is Glen Mize?
A. I guess so. Okay.
MR. TOBY SHOOK: If ylall'could just, I don't want to make it like a beauty pageant, but if you could turn around with your backs to the jury. And also to Miss Routier.
THE WITNESS: Okay. BY
MR. TOBY SHOOK:
Q. All right. They don't really have the same build, do they?
A. No, sir.
Q. So can we eliminate Glen Mize as being the one?
A. I think so.
Q. Okay. All right. Y'all can go on back. Thank you.
TOBY SHOOK: All right. So we got Darin out, and we got Glen out?
A. Yes, Sir.
LATER
Q. Okay.
A. To some degree. Well, you remembered it E able to write it down in your voluntary statement on the 8th?
A. It's in there, yes, sir.
Q. Okay."I then stood up and turned around and saw glass all over the kitchen floor.,, You remember that, don't you?
A. if it's in there, yes, sir.
Q. Your memory back on the Bth was thatyou saw all this glass on the kitchen floor?
A. I did see some glass on the kitchen floor.
Q. While your son Damon is lying there bleeding, and your husband was working on Devon?
A. Well, it was just a glance, it's not, I mean,--
Q. Then,"I tried to glance over to see if anything was out of place, or if anything as missing"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You looked around to see if anything was missing?
A. Well, when I was standing where the knife was placed, there was, my jewelry was sitting right beside it, and that is what I saw.
Q. Okay. Why would you want to glance to see if anything was missing?
A. Because the officer when he came in told me that nothing was gone.
Q. Okay. So you wanted to look around s for that?
A. I didn't necessarily look around, I mean, it was like right there in front of my face.
Q. And you knew nothing was gone?
A. As far as that, it didn't look like anything was gone.
Q. You said that several times on the 911 tape?
A. Yes, sir, I was just responding to what the Officer told me.
Q. Nothing is touched, nothing is touched?
A. I think he said, nothing is -- there nothing is gone, I think those were his words.
Q. And, your interpretation of the 911 tape is that, you never used the word that "I was fighting"; is that right?
A. No, sir. You can hear it.
Q. Your interpretation is you were frightening?
A. I was frightened. Frightened.
Q. If you say it like that, but when you are running back and forth, and you are out of breath.
Q. Okay. Let me take a moment, maybe I can use one of these. All right.
A. What page?
Q. Five. Okay about the middle of that page, before we get to that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are saying, I believe "some man came in, stabbed my babies stabbed me. I woke up"-- and your version is,"I was frightening"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Frightening?
A. Yes, sir.
Q."And he ran out and threw the knife down"7
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of course our version was,"I was fighting"?
A. Well, you can listen to it.
Q. Of course, if you said "I was fighting," that would indicate that you remember what was going on, right?
A. I'm not sure. Well, if you were able to say on the 911 tape, I was fighting him, that would mean you would have a memory of that attack, wouldn't it?
A. Well, it does not necessarily mean that.
Q. It doesn't?
A. I was talking to three different people at one time.
Q. But, if you said on the 911 tape, if you said,"I woke up, I was fighting, and he ran through the garage." That would indicate that you do remember what was going on, wouldn't it?
A. Well, sir, I don't think it says fighting.
Q. oh, no.
A. I have listened to this tape a lot of times.
Q. But if it did say fighting?
A. I don't think it did say fighting.
Q. If it did say fighting, wouldn't that indicate that you do remember -?
A. I don't think it does say fighting. 1 don't think it does say fighting.
Q. If it did say fighting wouldn't that be an indication that you remember what was going on? fi I don't think it does say fighting.
Q. Can I take that as a yes then?
A. I think it says frightening.
Q. You were frightening?
A. Yes, sir. You can listen to it.
Q. Oh, I have?
A. I know you have.
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Story 8 continues:
Q. I have lots of times.
A. So have I.
THE COURT: All right. Let's just ask questions and answers please.
BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
Q. Do you remember talking to Detective Waddell there when he came into your house?
A. Very briefly.
Q. Okay. Did you tell Detective Waddell that you had been fighting with the man there at the island area?
A. No, sir, it would have been on the call as well, and it's not on there.
Q. Okay. You never told him that any time he was in your house?
A. No, sir, I didn't. Sandra M. Hals Okay. You remember the paramedic, the one with the nickname Toad?
A. I only remember them really by their faces.
Q. He was the one that actually put the bandage on you and walked you out?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Okay.
A. I thought that there were two of them.
Q. Did you ever make the statement, there in your living room, in front of the paramedic then, that the man was wearing a ball cap, and he broke out the window in the garage?
A. I don't ever remember saying that.
Q. Okay. So you don't remember if you said that or not?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Do you remember talking to Detective Patterson and Detective Frosch down there, after your operation?
A. I do remember some of that, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And do you remember telling them that morning, that the man was standing over you, and you fought with him on the couch?
A. No, I heard Patterson say that, but I
Q. emember saying anything about that.
Q. So it was Detective Patterson that suggested that?
A. I think that is what, when he came up here, isn't that what he said7
Q. He said that, he said, are you fighting with him on the couch?
A. I'm not sure. He just said something along those lines, I thought, when he was sitting up here, when he was up here the other day.
Q. Well, you remember the nurse Chris Winegosh?
A. Again, I only remember the people as they came in here by their face.
Q. Okay. He was the nurse with glasses that tended to you, after you got out of the operating room. He was the nurse present when Detective Patterson and Frosch talked to you?
A. Um, I really don't remember that.
Q. That nurse that gave you the truth serum?
A. I realy don't remember him.
Q. Okay. Well, you remember him testifying, don't you?
A. Well there's been a lot of people to testify.
Q. Do you remember his description of how the detectives questioned you?
A. I really, I don't remember who you are talking about specifically.
Q. Okay. It would be the nurse that was there?
A. Well, I know, but there were a couple of nurses.
Q. well, do you remember someone testifying, that said they were present while the detectives were questioning?
A. I think so. I sort of remember that, yes.
Q. Okay. Well, that is who we're talking about?
A. Okay.
Q. And do you remember his description was that the detectives went slowly and methodically?
A. I really don't remember what his exact words were.
Q. That,they never suggested answers to you?
A. Sir, I don't remember what happened. I mean, there's been so many people testifying, Okay. Are you saying then today, that Detective Patterson was suggesting answers to you?
A. Suggesting as in, what do you mean?
Q. Fighting on the couch?
A. What do you mean? He was telling me.
Q. Well, I think that is what you are trying to get across, that you didn't come up with the word fighting, that was Detective Patterson?
A. Sir, I don't even remember that.
Q. Okay. You don't have any memory of that?
A. As far as fighting?
Q. Fighting on -- telling Detective Patterson that you fought with the man on the couch?
A. No, I don't -- I mean, I don't think that I said that. I could have said that, but I don't remember saying that.
Q. Okay. So you could have said that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay.
A. I mean, I think that you can have, you know, no memory, especially in that situation.
Q. Okay. Then you got transferred up to the I C U floor?
A. I guess so. You don't remember that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember telling the nurse, Diane Hollon, hat you felt pressure on you, and you woke up and a man was standing over you?
A. I don't remember -- I remember their faces when they came in here when you guys were talking to them, but I don't -- I mean, I don't -- when you say you are familiar with them, I am not.
Q. She was the nurse that attended you from an about 8:00 In the morning until 7:00 at night, the tall girl with brown hair?
A. Tall girl with brown hair?
Q. Was with you for about 11 hours?
A. What was her name?
Q. Diane Hollon?
A. I don't remember, but I'll try to answer your questions.
Q. Do you remember telling her that you felt pressure on you, the man was standing over you?
A. I do remember feeling pressure on my legs.
Q. Do you remember telling her that he man was standing over you, and that you fought him off?
A. No, sir, I don't remember that.
Q. Okay.
A. I do remember the pressure on my legs.
Q. All right. Where was it on your legs?
A. It was on my right leg.
Q. On your right leg?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the nurse Paige Campbell, she is the small nurse with blonde hair?
A. I think I remember Paige Campbell, because she gave me a shower I think.
Q. Okay. Do you remember that you showed her your hand, and you said,"this is where he cut me when I tried to grab the knife"?
A. No, sir.
Q. You don't remember telling her that?
A. No, sir. I remember her giving me a shower.
Q. Okay. Do you remember telling her that you woke up and the man was standing over you and tried to stab you with a knife?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Are you saying you just don't remember that?
A. I'm just saying I don't remember that. Okay. So you could have said that?
A. I suppose it's possible.
Q. Okay. If you had said that, would that not mean that you do remember this attack?
A. I don't remember this attack as of right now, I do not remember.
Q. Okay, do you remember talking to the nurse, Denise Faulk, which is the last nurse that testified, the one that had you --?
A. I remember her up here, but I don't remember her in there.
Q. Okay. And do you remember, that she the one that took the pink notes of what you said?
A. Yes, I remember her sitting up here.
Q. Okay. And, do you remember telling her, about 3:00 o'clock in the morning, that when you were laying on your right side, you told her,” I was laying just like this,".
A. First of all, I can't imagine -- can I see a picture of my arm? Do you have a picture of the arm?
Q. Well, why don't you -- I'll show you a picture the arm in a minute.
A. Okay. I don't imagine that I would be laying on the right side with my arm like that. porter So, that didn't happen?
A. I am just saying that I don't believe that I would lay, I mean, if you look at that picture, I don't think anybody would be laying on that arm, form what you are saying, I think you could lay on it like this, with this arm out.
Q. okay.
A. But not like this.
Q. Okay. Do you think she might have been making that up?
A. No, sir, I think maybe either she has either misunderstood, or she has gotten her information wrong.
Q. Okay. So maybe she misunderstood what you said?
A. Okay. Of course if you are laying on your right side, your back never would be exposed to any blood you might get on it, would it?
A. Well, I'm not sure I understand.
Q. Do you remember telling Denise Faulk that you woke up when Damon started touching you and crying?
A. I really don't remember that.
Q. Do you remember telling her that you felt a wrestling at your neck area? No, sir, I don't remember that.
Q. You just don't remember that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Again, I guess if you did tell her that, that would indicate that you did have some memory of this attack, wouldn't it?
A. Well, I don't remember that.
Q. You don't know of any reason that Denise Faulk would have to come down here and lie about that, do you?
A. I don't know of any reason, no, I mean
Q. I mean, Y'all didn't know each other before this did you?
A. No, sir, but
Q. Can you think of a good reason?
A. Well, I have heard a lot of things that --
Q. Do you think all of the nurses might have gotten together?
A. No, sir, I don't think that. That is not what I'm saying. I just think a lot of people, a lot of time went by, and I think that you can definitely.
Q. Well, you heard her, she wrote it down.
Sandra M.
THE COURT: Well let her finish her answer. Do you want to add any more? THE WITNESS: Well, I just think that you definitely take things out of context, after a certain period of time.
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Conclusion of Story 8:
BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
Q. Well, as far as time goes by, you heard her testimony. She wrote these notes down?
A. Yes, sir, she did.
Q. When she got home?
A. Pretty fresh on her mind?
A. She has got the notes.
Q. Okay.
A. But how do we know that those were written then?
Q. Do you think she lied about it?
A. No, I'm not saying that.
Q. Okay. Well, do you think we can trust her?
A. She seems like a nice person.
Q. Okay. Have you told any one else that a man was standing over you, and you woke up, and he tried to stab you?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, official Court Re Just as far as the dream that I had.
Q. Just the dream?
A. Yes.
Q. When did your memory start getting better? I mean, I guess you don't remember much that happened in the hospital do you?
A. No, I don't even remember, as far as my relatives being there. I have had a lot of different people say that they talked to me, and came and saw me that I don't remember.
Q. Okay. You remember everything up until this attack, don't you? What went on in the evening?
A. To a certain extent, I mean yeah.
Q. Your memory is not fuzzy on when Darin got home?
A. No, sir.
Q. On what you did all day?
A. No, sir, I was conscious then, yes, sir.
Q. Your memory is not fuzzy on having your little sister Dana there, and what the boys were doing, is it?
A. No, sir.
Q. It's not fuzzy as to what you and Darin talked about, is it?
A. To a certain extent, no, sir.
Q. Okay. But then, as far as any of the facts of this offense goes, you don't remember a thing about that, do you?
A. No, I can speculate that, but I don't know, to sit her and tell you I can't tell you that.
Q. Then you memory gets kind of good again, because you give a lot of details in your voluntary statement about what happened after you saw --
A. I think if I lived to be a hundred, I wouldn't be able to tell you everything that happened that night.
Q. Okay.
A. for detail.
Q. Well, you gave us a lot of details?
A. I gave some things, yes, sir.
Q. And you were able to give a lot of details on the 8th, when you wrote this statement out?
A. Yes, sir, but I still think there's a lot of things to this day, that.
Q. But as far as where the paramedics were, what Darin was doing, what you were doing, you were able to write that all down on June the 8th, weren't you?
A. Not every bit of it, but some, yes, sir.
Q. We will be able to see all of that for ourselves what you wrote down?
A. Yes, sir, I think we have already gone over that.
Q. okay. But then again at the hospital, when all of these statements are made to these nurses?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your memory is gone again, isn't it?
A. I just don't remember now.
Q. You just don't remember those?
A. No, sir.
Q. It kind of goes in and out?
A. Yes, sir. I have been told that that common.
Q. Okay. But I guess it got better on the Sth when you were writing this statement out?
A. A little bit, but not much.
Q. Okay. And as far as --
A. Like I said, to this day, there is still a lot of steps that I don't remember.
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Story 9
Q. Okay. And then the description of the attacker was a white male?
A. Yes, sir. She said a white male, shoulder length, dark hair, wearing a ball cap.
Q. Okay. And did she go into any other details about him, other than that?
A. She said that -- Detective Frosch was in the room, and she said that the assailant was about the same build as Detective Frosch.
Q. Okay. Did she have him face one way or the other when she was doing that?
A. Well, she said that she could not describe his face, that all she could describe was from the back. So, Detective Frosch had turned around. And she said that he was about the same build.
Q. About the same build, same size?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Did she say anything about any windows being open, anything like that?
A. Yes, sir. She said the window in the official 984 garage had been opened due to the cat being out in the arage because the cat was in heat.
Q. Okay. The Rowlett detectives, how did they ask questions?
A. They did an interview, how you interview any victim of any crime, just trying to figure out what had happened at the home.
Q. They weren't interrogating her?
A. No, sir, not at all.
Story 10
Q. What did she tell you?
A. She told me that she and her sons had been stabbed. That she had chased a gentlemen through the house into the garage and that she had picked up the knife in the garage.
Story 11
Q. okay. During the day, did you talk to her about what had had happened to her?
A. Darlie always was bringing it up, about the story-of the intruder coming into the house, she had waken up with the intruder over the top of her. 109 she felt pressure from him, and she tried to fight him off and ran out the garage. That's the same type of story that she told me and the different people that came in throughout the day. I heard that: story at least three times to me and two other people throughout the day.
STORY 12
Q. Okay. Tell the jury what she told had you happened when you had this conversation at her mother's house.
A. Well, I didn't ask her anything. She was just sitting there. She was really nervous. She was, of course, chewing on her fingernails and I went, don’t do that. And she said, she says,"Basia, Basiall, she says, When I opened -- when I felt pressure on my --
Q. Go ahead. Just take your time.
A. You should -- she says, Basia, when I I felt pressure on my legs, and I opened my eyes, the man was sitting on top of her, and he was doing this with the knife on her face.
Story 13
Q. Do you recall what statements, if any, that she made to you, when you confronted her with the fact that you thought she had killed her children?
A. Yes, sir, I do. She always had the same verbal response,"If I did it, I don't remember.. One occasion, she just didn't respond at all, she just shrugged her shoulders.
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Story 14
In Her Own Words
June 6th, 1996
The boys were asleep on the floor with their pillows and blankets. Darin brought me a pillow and blanket from upstairs. Around 1:00 a.m. Darin and I decided to go to sleep. Darin turned off all the lights but the T.V. was on. Darin told me that he loved me and would see me in the morning and I told him I loved him too. I asked him to make sure the door was locked on his way upstairs -- he said he already checked it and it was -- five minutes later I fell asleep. Next thing I remember -- Damon runs into my right shoulder and says "mommy." I sat straight up and saw a "blur" of a man between my couch and kitchen bar.
In Her Own Words
I stood up and Damon walked behind me. I heard glass breaking. When I got to the entrance of the kitchen, I saw man going into my utility room
I took a couple of steps and remembered lights were off went back and turned lights on, I started to walk through kitchen and noticed blood on my nightgown, about to my chest, halfway across the kitchen I saw knife laying on utility room floor, instinctively I went over and picked up knife, doesn't seem like there was much blood on the knife, I went back through the kitchen and put knife on kitchen bar. Damon was still standing by living room wall. I walked into living room and saw Devon's eyes open and wounds on his chest, Devon wasn't moving and I started screaming, I went to Damon and began checking him and saw stab wounds through his shirt, I was hysterical but I was trying to think. I told Damon to lay on his belly and I told him to hang on and be strong -- Damon said "O-K mommy." I ran into hallway to our entrance, turned on the lights and kept screaming. Darin, my husband, came out of our bedroom -- he only had his pants and glasses on. Darin ran down the stairs and we ran together into the hallway. Darin went to the left, into family room and over to Devon, the table by Devon was completely knocked over. I went to the right to kitchen and grabbed phone to call 911.
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More of Story 14:
Darlie called 911 at 2:31 was off at 2:37
[911 transcript]
"Some man... Came in... Stabbed my babies...Stabbed me... I woke up... I was fighting... He ran out through the garage... threw the knife down... My babies are dying... They’re dead... Oh my God..."
I went to second drawer and got towels. I could see Darin starting to perform CPR on Devon. I went to sink and about that time 911 lady came on. I was screaming and got towels wet (when I turned around I could see my neck slit in mirror behind wine rack and said this to the 911 lady) I was screaming. I ran over to Damon pulled up his shirt and layed (sic) a towel on his back, I ran over to Darin and could see blood coming out of Devon's wound when Darin blew into Devon's mouth, I didn't know what to do so I held a towel on Devon's wound. I was still on the phone while I did all this. I was soaked with blood by this time and very dizzy -- I ran to front door to scream for my neighbor, Karen (she is a nurse), and I remember the bolt on the door not being turned and locked. I ran back and got another towel to put on my neck. I was screaming and running back and fourth (sic) and still on the phone. I stopped by the kitchen bar in living room where there was my vacuum, I felt so dizzy and I held myself up on the vacuum. An officer came in and stood by my son Damon, I hung up the phone and dropped to the floor. I screamed for my husband to check on Drake (our baby) Darin did & came back and said he was O-K, Darin then went out front door to get neighbors. a second officer arrives and I tell both officers a man went out the utility room, the officers proceeded to go into kitchen into utility room.
Darin came back in and said both our babies were dead, I fell down again and kept screaming who would do this, I was so dizzy and hysterical. Two paramedics came -- one went to Devon, the other to Damon. I grabbed Damon's shirt and the paramedic wouldn't tell me he was dead, then he took Damon out of the house. Two paramedics came to me and I stood up and then I passed out.
Next thing I remember I'm on the front porch and Karen is by my side, I thought I was dying and I made her promise to find the man that killed my babies and she did. Karen then went into house. So many people were running in and out of the house and I felt so dizzy. I remember one paramedic telling me my necklace was stuck in my throat and he couldn't remove it. then my husband asked me where my panties were and I realized they were gone. Next thing I'm in the ambulance and I couldn't breathe and they put oxygen on me. Then I remember being in the ER and someone taking off my necklace and that's when I began to feel the pain, it hurt so bad, I begged them to make the pain stop and finally they said they had to operate and they put me under.
Next thing I remember waking up a crying and screaming my babies were dead, there were two officers asking me questions about my husband and the man I saw. I told them all I could remember. I don't remember any of the days I was in the hospital except the last day (Saturday) The nurse came in and gave me a shower and kept telling me how bad my arms looked and did I remember anything, and I told her I couldn't remember but thought I struggled or fought the man. then I got to hold my baby and they quit giving me shots of pain medicine and gave me pills instead. Two officers were there and said they were going to take Darin and I into the P.D. before the boy"s viewing so they could get statements from us. My husband and I didn't think anything of it. The officers got us to the P.D. around 5:00 p.m., separated us and made us talk about what happened. We were supposed to be at the viewing at 6:00 p.m. and it was about 6:30 when Detective Patterson asked me to give a written statement. I was very upset and crying and told him we were late to be with our little boys and couldn't we do this another day. Patterson told me it was very important to do it then. Finally about 8:00 p.m. they drove my husband and I to the funeral home.
I wasvery heavily medicated and really don't remember much, I walked into the room with my husband and saw my babies holding hands in the casket and fell a little and laid on the casket, I kept screaming and crying, I couldn't stop. My boys looked so beautiful and innocent but they were cold when I kissed them. I fixed their hair and I just wanted to die. People started coming into the room and after about thirty minutes I almost passed out so someone sat me on the couch and helped me. I didn't want to leave but my husband said we had to. I don't remember where we slept that night. The next day we had the funeral. I don't remember much except everyone kept telling me my babies were in heaven and I got angry because they were too little to be in heaven. There were so many people but I just wanted to be left alone. We sent balloons in the air with Devon and Damon's name and had a plane fly over the funeral for them. I don't remember much else except we wanted to put flowers at our home around the fountain from the funeral and (Detective) Patterson said 'no.' but everyone took flowers and we all drove over there and did it anyway. We handed them to the officers and the officers put them around the fountain. Someone took us home. I remember laying there, I was too scared to sit by a window or use the restroom or take a shower by myself -- someone had to be with me and everyone kept giving me pills, I just didn't want to be without my boys.
I held my son Drake, in my arms and kept a picture of Devon and Damon every step I took. Sometime that week the detectives wanted Darin and I to come in a give hair samples and fingerprints. We got there at 2:00 p.m. and they ended up keeping us until 9:30 p.m. I was crying and didn't have my pills, I kept throwing up and Patterson would help me go to the restroom because I kept getting sick but I was scared to be left alone. Patterson asked me about my tatoo and wanted to see it. I showed him. Patterson told me they found this man's fingerprints and it was only a matter of time. Friday, June 14th, was my son Devon's birthday. We went to the grave around 12:30 or 1:00 p.m. and had a prayer service. Around 5 or 5:30 p.m. we met the detectives in a grocery store parking lot in Rowlett to sign a release for blood from the night of the incident. Patterson told us they had over 100 leads and they put cameras on our house and they found flesh under my fingernails from the samples they took at the hospital. Later we found this was all a lie. We proceeded from the store to the boy's grave where we had a birthday party for Devon with all his friends. My little sister bought silly string because my little boys loved it and always played with it. Inside I felt like I was dying but it was my son's birthday and I was only thinking of him. I wasn't celebrating his death, I was honoring his life, yet I have been persecuted for this. It's absurd.
On the 18-19 they (the detectives) called us and told us they had a retired policeman who was going to help us. So around 7:00 p.m. we went to the Rowlett P.D. They put me in a room with a man named Bill Parker and for two hours they tried to brainwash me that I blacked out in my sleep and did this crime and only imagined the man. I told him he was crazy and he told me I was under arrest -- after he told me this I became hysterical and he tried to calm me down and after another hour of him trying to get me to confess to something I know I didn't do, I told him I wanted to do hypnosis, but they wouldn't allow me to have anyone I knew there while I did it so I said forget it and then I want my lawyer. They arrested me while they smoked their cigars and gave their news reports -- they were so proud of themselves -- they make me sick.
- End Of Letter Text -
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Story 15
Darlie's written statement to Police
- as read to the court -
"Darin and my sister Danna came home from working at the shop. The boys were playing with the neighborhood kids outside. I was finishing up dinner. Damon came home and Devon called, and I told him to be home soon, because we were going to eat.
Darin played with the baby Drake with Danna a while, and I had pulled everything together to eat. Devon came home, and we all ate dinner together. After we ate, we cleaned all the plates. I was changing Drake, while Darin put everything in some containers, for left overs. We all talked a little about how happy we' were that the shop had been so busy for the past three weeks, and that we hoped it would continue, since work had been slow for a couple of months. Devon and Damon asked if the they could play with one of their friends
for a little while longer, and so we said okay.
Darin and Danna and I just sat around and watched a little TV. Later, and I'm not sure of the exact time, I asked Darin to drive Danna, my sister home because I wasn't feeling too well. While Darin was gone, the boys brought down there blankets and pillows and asked if they could watch TV. I said, "yes". They came downstairs and played on the the floor in front of the TV with Drake while I made some popcorn.
"Around 20 or 25 minutes later, Darin came in, and sat down with us while we watched TV. Drake started to get fussy, so I made him a bottle, and I believe Darin fed him the bottle. Soon after the boys both fell asleep, Darin took the baby upstairs, and put him in his crib and came back downstairs.
We talked a while about a few problems we were having with the car, and the boat, and had a few words between us. Since I had the baby, I had been having some depression. I told Darin that I was depressed because I had not been able to take the boys anywhere because we only had one car.
He told me that he loved me, and asked me if I wanted him to sleep downstairs with me because I wanted to stay up a while and watch TV. I told him no, because I didn't think that he would be able to sleep on the couch and get any sleep. I had been sleeping on the couch the past week or so, off and on, because the baby slept in our room in the crib, and when he moved, he woke me up.
"Darin and I laid together for a little while, and then decided to go to sleep because he he had work the next day. This was around 12:30 or 1:00 o'clock, I'm not sure. He kissed me and said he loved me, and I told him I loved him and would see him in the morning
After a while, I started to get sleepy. The next thing, I woke up, and felt a pressure on me. I felt Damon press on my right shoulder, and heard him cry. This made me really come awake, and realize there was a man standing down at my feet, walking away from me. I walked after him, and heard glass breaking. I got half way through the kitchen, and turned back around to run and turn on the light. I ran back towards the utility room, and realized there was a big, white-handled knife laying on the floor. It was then that I realized that I had blood all over me, and I grabbed the knife, thinking he was in the garage.
"I looked over and saw the door shut to the garage, and so I thought he might still be in there, and I needed to get Darin. I ran back through the kitchen, and realized that the entire living room area had blood all over everything. I put the knife on the counter and ran into the entrance, turned on the light and started screaming for Darin. I think I screamed twice, and he ran out of the bedroom with his jeans on, and no glasses and was yelling, 'what is it? What is it?,
"I remember saying that he cut them. 'He tried to kill me. My neck'. He ran down the stairs and into the room where the boys were. I grabbed the phone and called 911. Darin started giving Devon C P R while I put a towel on my neck, and a towel on Damon's back. I remember telling Damon to hang on, Mommie was there. And I looked over at Darin, and saw the glass table had been knocked half way off, and the flower arrangement had been knocked over. I then stood up and turned around and saw glass all over the kitchen floor.
"I tried to glance over to see if anything was out of place, or if anything was missing. I took a few steps, and opened the door and sqreamed for Karen. I was still on the phone with 911. I don't recall what all was said, because everything was happening so fast. "I went back to Damon, and by him, he had stopped' moving, and the police walked through the door. The paramedics came and tried to work on the children. Darin was screaming 'Who did this? Who did this?' And I started asking if my babies were dead. "Darin was crying and he said yes. After that, I just remember screaming, and showing Darin my neck. Darin took me out the front of the house, and by then Darin ran upstairs to make sure the baby was okay. He showed me Drake was okay, and then handed him to Karen, our neighbor. I remember them holding a towel on my neck. And, wiping my arm, and then he put me in the ambulance. Darin got in, but they told him that he needed to leave, so they could take me -- so they could take care of me.
"I remember get (sic) to the hospital and then them telling me they were taking me to surgery. they took me -- they took off my necklace and put me to sleep. I woke up, and minutes later, the Detectives were there asking me all kinds of questions.
Q. And she signed it, "Darlie Routier".
A. Yes.
Q. And that is her statement as you recall it?
A. written statement.
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Story 16
5801 EAGLE DRIVE
June 6, 1996
MURDER OF DAMON AND DEVON ROUTIER
This transcript was created from the official tape logs maintained by the Communications Section of the Rowlett Police Department Transcribed by Barry Dickey and Dennis Lowe for Graffiti Productions, Inc.
ABBREVIATIONS AND COLOR CODES
CO1: Communications Officer 1
CO2: Communications Officer 2
FC: Female Caller
MC: Male Caller
BV: Background voice
RADIO: Police & Fire radio
PO: Police Officer at the scene
SND: Sounds individually defined
Total length of transcription: 05:44:28
TRANSCRIPT - ROWLETT 911
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OO:OO:OO COl: ...Rowlett 911...what is your emergency...
00:01:19 FC: ...somebody came here...they broke in...
00:03:27 COl: ...ma'am...
00:05:ll FC: ...they just stabbed me and my children...
00:07:16 COl: ...what...
00:08:05 FC: ...they just stabbed me and my kids...my little boys...
00:09:24 COl: ...who...who did...
00:11:12 FC: ...my little boy is dying...
00:11:25 RADIO: ...(unintelligible) clear...
00:13:07 COl: ...hang on...hang on...hang on...
00:15:03 FC: ...hurry...(unintelligible)..
00:16:01 COl: ...stand by for medical emergency..
00:18:11 FC: ...ma'am...
00:18:19 COl: ...hang on ma'am...
00:21:26 FC: ...ma'am...
00:23:00 COl: ...unknown medical emergency...5801 Eagle Drive...
00:24:00 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
00:26:24 FC: ...ma'am...
00:27:12 COl: ...ma'am...I'm trying to get an ambulance to you...hang on a minute...
00:28:20 RADIO: ...(siren)...
00:29:13 FC: ...oh my God...my babies are dying...
00:30:12 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
00:31:09 COl: ...what's going on ma'am...
00:32:13 FC: ...(unintelligible)...oh my God...
00:33:49 RADIO: ...(tone - signal broadcast)...
00:34:0l BV: ...(unintelligible)...
00:35:20 FC: ...(unintelligible) thought he was dead...oh my God...
00:39:08 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
00:39:29 FC: ...I don't even know (unintelligible)...
00:40:22 COl: ...attention 90l unknown medical emergency 5801...
00:42:23 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
00:43:15 FC: ...I don't even know (unintelligible)...
00:44:04 COl: ...Eagle Drive...Box 238...cross street Linda Vista and Willowbrook...attention 90l medical emergency...
00:49:28 FC: ...who was breathing...
00:50:l0 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
00:51:15 FC: ...(unintelligible) are they still laying there (unintelligible)...
00:51:19 COl: ...may be possible stabbing...5801 Eagle Drive...Box 238...
cross street Linda Vista and Willowbrook...
00:55:06 FC: ...oh my God...what do we do...
00:57:17 COl: ...time out 2:32...
00:58:26 FC: ...oh my God...
00:58:28 COl: ...stamp me a card Clint...0l:0l:02 COl: ...80...
01:01:16 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
01:02:13 FC: ...oh my God...
01:03:05 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
01:04:07 COl: ...need units going towards 5801 Eagle Drive...5801 Eagle Drive...
01:04:07 FC: ...oh my God...my baby's dead...
01:07:08 FC: ...Damon...hold on honey...
01:08:ll MC: ...(unitelligible)...
01:08:22 COl: ...hysterical female on the phone..
01:10:03 FC: ...hold on...
01:10:10 MC: ...(unitelligible)...
01:10:26 COl: ...says her child has been stabbed...
01:ll:28 FC: ...I saw them Darie[sic]...
01:12:21 MC: ...oh my God...(unintelligible) ..came in here...
01:14:10 COl: ...ma'am...I need you to calm down and talk to me...
01:14:24 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
01:16:25 FC: ...ok...
01:16:26 SND: ...(unintelligible)...
01:17:12 COl: ...twice Clint...
__________________
CONCLUSION:
01:18:26 FC: ...didn't you get my address...
01:20:19 COl: ...5801 Eagle...
01:22:00 FC: ...yes...we need help...
01:22:03 RADIO: ...(unintelligible) will be enroute code...
01:24:20 FC: ...Darin...I don't know who it was...
01:24:2 COl: ...2:33 code...
01:26:15 FC: ...we got to find out who it was...
01:27:12 COl: ...ma'am...
01:28:04 COl: ...ma'am listen...listen to me...
01:29:27 FC: ...yes...yes...(unintelligible)...
01:30:23 RADIO: ...(unintelligible) I'm clear... do you need anything...
01:32:08 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
01:32:20 FC: ...oh my God...
01:34:00 COl: ...(unintelligible)...
01:34:22 COl: ...do you take the radio Clint...
01:35:23 CO2: ...yes...
01:36:12 FC: ...oh my God...
01:36:25 COl: ...I...ma'am...
01:38:03 FC: ...yes...
01:38:17 COl: ...I need you to...
01:38:23 RADIO: ...(unintelligible) start that way (unintelligible)...will revise...
01:39:28 COl: ...I need you to talk to me..
01:41:21 FC: ...what...what...what...
01:44:25 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
01:44:28 FC: ...my babies are dead (unintelligible)...
01:46:20 RADIO: ...go ahead and start that way...siren code 4...advise...
01:47:10 FC: ....(unintelligible)...
01:48:03 FC: ...(unintelligible) do you want honey... hold on (unintelligible)...
01:49:17 COl: ...ma'am...I can't understand you...
01:50:21 FC: . ..yes...
01:51:18 COl: ...you're going to have to slow down...calm down...and talk to me...
01:52:19 FC: ...I'm talking to my babies... they're dying...
01:55:03 CO[sic - left out l after O] ...what is going on..
01:56:29 FC: ...somebody came in while I was sleeping...me and my little boys were sleeping downstairs...
02:02:00 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)I'll be clear...
02:02:20 FC: ...some man...came in...stabbed my babies...stabbed me...I woke up...I was fighting...he ran out through the garage...threw the knife down...my babies are dying...they're dead...oh my God...
02:14:23 COl: ...ok...stay on the phone with me...
02:16:11 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
02:17:06 FC: ...oh my God...
02:17:29 COl: ...what happened... (unintelligible) dispatch 901...
02:20:15 FC: ...hold on honey...hold on...
02:22:01 COl: ...(unintelligible) who was on (unintelligible)...
02:22:26 CO2: ...it was (unintelligible) the white phone...
02:23:08 FC: ...hold on...
02:25:26 CO2: ...they were wondering when we need to dispatch...so I sent a double team...
02:25:28 FC: ...oh my God...oh my God...
02:28:08 COl: ...ok...thanks...
02:28:21 FC: ...oh my God...
02:29:20 SND: ...(unintelligible)...
02:30:01 FC: ...oh my God...
02:30:20 COl: ...ma'am...
02:31:06 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
02:31:14 COl: ...who's there with you...
02:32:15 FC: ...Karen...(unintelligible)...
02:33:15 COl: ...ma'am...
02:34:06 FC: ...what...
02:35:16 COl: ...is there anybody in the house...besides you and your children...
02:38:11 FC: ...no...my husband he just ran downstairs...he's helping me... but they're dying...oh my God... they're dead...
02:43:24 COl: ...ok...ok...how many little boys...is it two boys...
02:46:06 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
02:46:25 FC: ...there's two of 'em...there's two...
02:48:18 RADIO: ...what's the cross street on that address on Eagle...
02:50:15 FC: . ..oh my God...who would do this...
02:53:13 COl: ...(unintelligible) listen to me...calm down... (unintelligible)...
02:53:21 FC: ...I feel really bad...I think I'm dying...
02:55:06 RADIO: ...228...
02:56:17 COl: ...go ahead...
02:58:12 RADIO: ...(unintelligible) address again (unintelligible)...
02:59:12 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
02:59:22 FC: ...when are they going to be here...
03:00:22 COl: ...5801 Eagle Drive...5801 Eagle Drive...
03:03:28 FC: ...when are they going to be here...
03:03:29 COl: ...going to be a stabbing...
03:05:20 FC: ...when are they going to be here...
03:06:20 COl: ...ma'am...they're on their way...
03:08:00 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
03:08:08 FC: ...I gotta just sit here forever...oh my God...
03:ll:l4 COl: ...2:35...
03:12:05 FC: ...who would do this...who would do this...
03:13:09 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
03:14:26 COl: ...(sounds of typing on computer keyboard)...
03:16:08 COl: ...ma'am...how old are your boys...
03:18:20 FC: ...what...
03:19:03 COl: ...how old are your boys..
03:20:04 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)..
03:20:21 COl: ...no...
03:21:01 FC: ...seven and five...
03:22:17 COl: ...ok...
03:23:08 FC: ...oh my God...oh my God...oh...he's dead...
03:29:02 COl: ...calm down...can you...
03:29:03 FC: ...oh God...Devon no...oh my God...
03:30:27 SND: ...(dog barking)...
03:35:02 COl: ...is your name Darlie...
03:36:11 FC: ...yes...
03:36:26 COl: ...this is her...
03:37:09 COl: ...is your husbands[sic] name Darin...
03:38:22 FC: ...yes...please hurry...God they're taking forever...
03:41:20 COl: ...there's nobody in your house...there was...was...
03:44:05 COl: ...you don't know who did this...
03:45:19 PO: ...look for a rag...
03:46:ll FC: ...they killed our babies...
03:48:03 PO: ...lay down...ok...just sit down... (unintelligible)...
03:51:ll COl: ...(sounds of typing on computer keyboard)...
03:52:13 FC: ...no...he ran out...uh...they ran out in the garage...I was sleeping...
03:54:09 COl: ...(unintelligible)...
03:56:19 FC: ...my babies over here already cut...can I (unintelligible)...
03:59:29 MC: ...(unintelligible) phone is right there...
04:01:28 FC: ...(unintelligible)...
04:03:01 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
04:05:03 FC: ...ya'll look out in the garage...look out in the garage...they left a knife laying on...
04:08:21 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
04:09:19 COl: ...there's a knife...don't touch anything...
04:ll:18 FC: ...I already touched it and picked it up...
04:12:05 RADIO: ...10-4...
04:15:20 COl: ...who's out there...is anybody out there..
DP AGAIN:
SO, IN THE SPAN OF SECONDS, SHE GOES FROM MORE THAN ONE INTRUDER TO TWO INTRUDERS??????
__________________
THESE COLORS DON'T RUN.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-01-2006, 09:53 PM
It seems like more than 1 conversation is going on at both ends in the 911 transcripts. The dispatcher of course giving orders, dispatching police cars and ambulance. But Darlie is heard telling Darin she doesn't know who it is, I am assuming he is asking her who did it? The many "versions" of her story are really pretty consistant with someone post trauma, and also suffering "survivers guilt" I don't entirely trust the hearsay recollections of nurses or anyone else who talked her and didn't 1. Record the converastion, or take detailed notes. A court doesn't allow hearsay evidence either so trying to use it as proof that she lied is really a travesty to the American Justice System.
I still think 2 intruders were present. The wounds on the boys are also indicitive of two people. The oldest boy had deeper wounds that show no hesitation and are precisely placed. The youngest had several wounds that glanced off bone and the penitration was shallower. Two different strengths and two different knowledges of anatomy.
This case has perplexed me, aggravated me and helped me to catch a killer who murdered my husbands best friend. Totally different case, but websleuths minds gave us ideas. I know 100% that man is guilty. I don't feel 100% about Darlie though, not enough to put a needle in her arm and take her life. Since I've known her since she was 6 I would be the first to say it if I thought she did it and I'd save the State of Texas the expense and do it myself. I still believe she didn't do it and like her Mom I'll stand by her till the end. An end we hope will eventually bring to light what happened that night
Mary456
02-05-2006, 08:38 PM
A court doesn't allow hearsay evidence either so trying to use it as proof that she lied is really a travesty to the American Justice System.
Many people believe that what you heard someone else say isn't admissable in court, but that's not true. There are dozens of exceptions to the rule.
It's commonly assumed that hearsay isn't admissable because the witness might be lying about what someone else said. That possibility exists, of course, but it's not a good reason to keep the testimony out of court. For example, what's the difference between a nurse testifying that she heard Darlie say, "I struggled with an intruder" and the nurse testifying that she saw Darlie holding a photo of the boys or saw Darlie eating spinach? There is no difference, at least not in terms of the nurse's truthfulness. A person can just as easily lie about what someone did as what someone said.
Hearsay is a problem mainly when a witness might have misinterpreted what a speaker really meant. Let's say a cop accuses Joe Blow of shooting his wife. Joe, in shock, says, "I shot my wife?" In court, the cop is asked to repeat what Joe said & testifies, "He said, 'I shot my wife.' " Huge difference, right? The cop got the words right but the meaning wrong. In that case, you'd want to talk to Joe to nail down what he really meant.
So...the problem with hearsay isn't that the witness might be lying about what someone else said. The problem is that without the "someone else" there to examine, it can be tough to determine how accurately the witness interpreted the other person's words.
Students of Hearsay 101...class dismissed! Ahahahaaa!
beesy
02-07-2006, 11:46 PM
Many people believe that what you heard someone else say isn't admissable in court, but that's not true. There are dozens of exceptions to the rule.
It's commonly assumed that hearsay isn't admissable because the witness might be lying about what someone else said. That possibility exists, of course, but it's not a good reason to keep the testimony out of court. For example, what's the difference between a nurse testifying that she heard Darlie say, "I struggled with an intruder" and the nurse testifying that she saw Darlie holding a photo of the boys or saw Darlie eating spinach? There is no difference, at least not in terms of the nurse's truthfulness. A person can just as easily lie about what someone did as what someone said.
Hearsay is a problem mainly when a witness might have misinterpreted what a speaker really meant. Let's say a cop accuses Joe Blow of shooting his wife. Joe, in shock, says, "I shot my wife?" In court, the cop is asked to repeat what Joe said & testifies, "He said, 'I shot my wife.' " Huge difference, right? The cop got the words right but the meaning wrong. In that case, you'd want to talk to Joe to nail down what he really meant.
So...the problem with hearsay isn't that the witness might be lying about what someone else said. The problem is that without the "someone else" there to examine, it can be tough to determine how accurately the witness interpreted the other person's words.
Students of Hearsay 101...class dismissed! Ahahahaaa! Thanks for explaining this. Very helpful http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_3_101.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS)
Mary456
02-08-2006, 11:53 PM
Thanks for explaining this. Very helpful http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_3_101.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS)
First, I have to apologize to Jeana. I didn't realize this thread was a "sticky" and not open to discussion. I saw G.I.'s post and got carried away...sorry.
But I do think "hearsay" is a subject we all need to understand if we're going to discuss trials and judicial law. In the early days of the Darlie debate (and even today), people have become incensed about hearsay, because they think it's all gossip...which it is not.
"Hearsay" is admitted based on a judge's ruling. Some hearsay is valid, some is not, and it's up to the judge - taking into consideration both sides' opinions - to decide that.
I'm so glad I'm not a judge :)
Jeana (DP)
02-09-2006, 08:53 AM
First, I have to apologize to Jeana. I didn't realize this thread was a "sticky" and not open to discussion. I saw G.I.'s post and got carried away...sorry.
But I do think "hearsay" is a subject we all need to understand if we're going to discuss trials and judicial law. In the early days of the Darlie debate (and even today), people have become incensed about hearsay, because they think it's all gossip...which it is not.
"Hearsay" is admitted based on a judge's ruling. Some hearsay is valid, some is not, and it's up to the judge - taking into consideration both sides' opinions - to decide that.
I'm so glad I'm not a judge :)
Its okay to comment on this thread Mary!! :blowkiss:
Mary456
02-09-2006, 03:40 PM
Its okay to comment on this thread Mary!! :blowkiss:
Same to you, Jeana. We disagree on a lot of things, but I still count you as one of my best friends.
Hey, we're only the ones left who believe that Darlie acted alone in the killing of her sons. We gotta stick together on that, because what makes the most sense is usually true :)
Jeana (DP)
02-09-2006, 04:02 PM
Same to you, Jeana. We disagree on a lot of things, but I still count you as one of my best friends.
Hey, we're only the ones left who believe that Darlie acted alone in the killing of her sons. We gotta stick together on that, because what makes the most sense is usually true :)
We can't help being smart! It just comes natural to us.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-12-2006, 09:55 AM
Occam's Razor
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCA
Maybe I'll learn somemore about how to post her I keep quoting the wrong poster too. Lets see if this works There should be a link above.
dasgal
02-22-2006, 11:35 AM
I still think 2 intruders were present. The wounds on the boys are also indicitive of two people. The oldest boy had deeper wounds that show no hesitation and are precisely placed. The youngest had several wounds that glanced off bone and the penitration was shallower. Two different strengths and two different knowledges of anatomy.
I really don't understand this statement at all. Firstly I see that you are an obtrician, so I am assuming that you have a decent working knowledge of anatomy. What I am not sure of however, is how familiar you are with the case and the theories.
Now, having said that, I can't fathom why you would think that one "intruder" had a better knowledge of anatomy than another. One boy was asleep and never moved from the place of his attack, and I believe the other woke up and was obviously found away from his attack origination. Wouldn't you as an obviously bright person assume that other factors would play into this such as tension, fatigure, stress, frenzy on the part of the attacker, especially because the second child has tried to escape during his attack?
Any why would you assume that anyone conducting such a savage attack would be taking the time to look at placement of the wounds based on medical knowledge. It simply doesn't happen that way.
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. I'm really wondering where you came up with this.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-23-2006, 08:20 PM
I really don't understand this statement at all. Firstly I see that you are an obtrician, so I am assuming that you have a decent working knowledge of anatomy. What I am not sure of however, is how familiar you are with the case and the theories.
Now, having said that, I can't fathom why you would think that one "intruder" had a better knowledge of anatomy than another. One boy was asleep and never moved from the place of his attack, and I believe the other woke up and was obviously found away from his attack origination. Wouldn't you as an obviously bright person assume that other factors would play into this such as tension, fatigure, stress, frenzy on the part of the attacker, especially because the second child has tried to escape during his attack?
Any why would you assume that anyone conducting such a savage attack would be taking the time to look at placement of the wounds based on medical knowledge. It simply doesn't happen that way.
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. I'm really wondering where you came up with this.I get this from a couple of places reading other true crime books and also the testimony of Frosch.
Tate-LaBianca murders in California. Knives used were mutiple, obvious "style" differences as evidenced by the depths of the wounds. When the pieces all came together with the arrests and confessions of the "Manson Family" is when the police realized they had more than 1 killer in those houses. Much was learned forensically speaking from those two murder cases.
Hunting and fishing, not optometry, is what confirms my anatomy knowledge as we only treat your eyes in optometry.
When it comes to dressing out an animal, having knowledge of anatomy helps. Someone could have had a basic idea that is all that is needed to know the chest is easier to penetrate than the back. An animal is never cut down the back to harvest the meat. A hunter knows this, you don't need a degree to learn it either.
Frosch-He testifies that a serrated edge is found on the edged of the knife wounds on Devon. This could be a burr, or nick in the blade not a totally serrated knife.
The wounds on Darlie and Damon can be traced to the same knife. No their wounds did not penetrate as far but the vertical slicing of the neck of Darlie's wound should show where the nick or burr in the blade is if it is fact the same knife used.
Frosch testified that he could not identify the weapon found as the one used on both boys and Darlie. His testimony could only say that the knives were of similar classification. If it was the same knife he would have stated it as "proof positive".
No blood was found on the knife, that belonged to Devon. I know the expert says he only tested 4 areas.
I'm sure one of the areas would be the blade shaft where it joins the handle. This is a good place for blood to "hide" as it would resist cleaning efforts better. In fact if the knife was taken apart you might still find blood at the blade and handle joining point. How did Darlie eliminate his blood from the knife. How did she get rid of the burrs and/or nicks in the knife edge.
The depth of wounds is also what makes me conclude we have two perps not one. The sleeping child, Devon, didn't stay asleep as he has a defensive wound on his buttocks, surmised that he kicked at the killer in defense. He struggled too and was a larger child. Damon was stabbed in the back and you have shoulder blades, spine, larger amounts of rib cartilage etc in the back and it is much more difficult to stab someone in the back than chest.
The number of wounds inflicted upon the 2nd child Damon are more numerous and show a different " style" shallower, hitting bone, all in the back. He also seems to move around the crime scene going towards the couch then away towards the direction of the front door. Less control of him, less force used to subdue him. His wounds were less severe than his brothers, less strength used on him than Devon. If the killer(s) were the parents couldn't it be surmised that Devon was killed by Darin and Damon by Darlie. Two people two different hand strengths 2 knives.
beesy
02-23-2006, 10:40 PM
I just wanted to let you know that novels aren't true. They are fiction
So true crime books cannot be novels.
beesy
02-24-2006, 09:48 AM
I get this from a couple of places reading other true crime books and also the testimony of Frosch.
Tate-LaBianca murders in California. Knives used were mutiple, obvious "style" differences as evidenced by the depths of the wounds. When the pieces all came together with the arrests and confessions of the "Manson Family" is when the police realized they had more than 1 killer in those houses. Much was learned forensically speaking from those two murder cases.
Hunting and fishing, not optometry, is what confirms my anatomy knowledge as we only treat your eyes in optometry.
When it comes to dressing out an animal, having knowledge of anatomy helps. Someone could have had a basic idea that is all that is needed to know the chest is easier to penetrate than the back. An animal is never cut down the back to harvest the meat. A hunter knows this, you don't need a degree to learn it either.
Frosch-He testifies that a serrated edge is found on the edged of the knife wounds on Devon. This could be a burr, or nick in the blade not a totally serrated knife.
The wounds on Darlie and Damon can be traced to the same knife. No their wounds did not penetrate as far but the vertical slicing of the neck of Darlie's wound should show where the nick or burr in the blade is if it is fact the same knife used.
Frosch testified that he could not identify the weapon found as the one used on both boys and Darlie. His testimony could only say that the knives were of similar classification. If it was the same knife he would have stated it as "proof positive".
No blood was found on the knife, that belonged to Devon. I know the expert says he only tested 4 areas.
I'm sure one of the areas would be the blade shaft where it joins the handle. This is a good place for blood to "hide" as it would resist cleaning efforts better. In fact if the knife was taken apart you might still find blood at the blade and handle joining point. How did Darlie eliminate his blood from the knife. How did she get rid of the burrs and/or nicks in the knife edge.
The depth of wounds is also what makes me conclude we have two perps not one. The sleeping child, Devon, didn't stay asleep as he has a defensive wound on his buttocks, surmised that he kicked at the killer in defense. He struggled too and was a larger child. Damon was stabbed in the back and you have shoulder blades, spine, larger amounts of rib cartilage etc in the back and it is much more difficult to stab someone in the back than chest.
The number of wounds inflicted upon the 2nd child Damon are more numerous and show a different " style" shallower, hitting bone, all in the back. He also seems to move around the crime scene going towards the couch then away towards the direction of the front door. Less control of him, less force used to subdue him. His wounds were less severe than his brothers, less strength used on him than Devon. If the killer(s) were the parents couldn't it be surmised that Devon was killed by Darin and Damon by Darlie. Two people two different hand strengths 2 knives. The Routier murders are in no way comparable to the Tate/La Bianca murders. The Mason killers took their own weapons. They killed everybody on the scene, including a young man visiting the caretaker, who lived in a small house in back of the large house. The caretaker was the only one spared because they did not know he was there. Pat Krenwinkle was on her way down the sidewalk towards his house when someone told her to come back because they didn't have any more time. They did all kinds of crazy things, tied a rope around Sharon and Jay and hung it from the rafters, then shot Jay. stabbed Sharon, then chased Abby and Fortowski out the door, Abby the back and Fortowski the front. Oh yeah, and wrote stupid stuff on the door. They took the weapons with them when they left. It's obvious one person could not control all of those people. The killers split up, they did not stay together in one room. LE knew right away at the Tate muder that they had mulitple killers. You've got victims strewn from end of the estate to the other. There were many weapons used including a gun and rope. They weren't sure about the LaBiancas, but they were sure about the Tate murders. The only way these cases are connected is that people were murdered.
Damon and Devon were in different positions. Damon was crawling away. You have no way of knowing how his wounds would have been if he not crawled.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-24-2006, 09:51 AM
I reread my post and I never used the word novel. I said books.
Ann Rule is one of my favorites, John Douglas, and other authors have written books about crimes and the trials of the accused. Most of the crimes I have read about happened in California. Alot in Texas too.
My favorite NOVELS when I was younger- pre-teen, Nancy Drew mysteries. Everything was neatly tied up by Nancy and her best friend and no one ever got seriously hurt. LOL LOL LOL That is fiction. Police need bullet proof vests and BFG weapons.
The number of wounds inflicted upon the 2nd child Damon are more numerous and show a different " style" shallower, hitting bone, all in the back. He also seems to move around the crime scene going towards the couch then away towards the direction of the front door. Less control of him, less force used to subdue him. His wounds were less severe than his brothers, less strength used on him than Devon. If the killer(s) were the parents couldn't it be surmised that Devon was killed by Darin and Damon by Darlie. Two people two different hand strengths 2 knives.
That's why Damon was attacked twice, imo. The killer (Darlie) didn't know he was still alive until he started to crawl away, hence the second attack with more force. That's why the depth of his injuries varies.
I agree with you about the blade handle and shaft. If they remove it, I'll bet you some of Devon's blood is there.
If you believe the two intruder, two knife theory, which intruder was bleeding from the forearm? And why did he lay that bloody knife down on the carpet in the murder room? Why didn't Darlie pick it up then and use it on them? Why would one intruder take his knife and the other leave one knife there, yet they take a sock! Doesn't quite make sense to me.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-24-2006, 02:28 PM
I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room. A basket of clothes including socks were right by the doorway. The blood on it is a transfer stain.
The knife was from the house why take it, taking the knife brought with them would mean less chance of tracing that weapon back to them.
No blood from a 3rd party was ever found so why you think the person was bleeding from the arm.
Damon killed first, Damon stabbed second, Darlie third and when Damon started moving around the killer had to go back after him this could also explain why Darlie was slashed and not stabbed more. The killer was interrupted by Damon not being dead. In a hurry the killer slices at her throat, goes after Damon but has to put the knife down in order to catch him. Stabs Damon some more and is standing there at the end of the couch when Darlie sees him. He might have decided that he is better off fleeing, than finishing the job.
No matter who did the killing no one wanted to be caught.
This would also explain wht he left Darlie's jewelry on the counter, time to leave, to prevent being caught. There might have been enough noise downstairs to make the killer believe that anyone else in the house could have heard it too. The glass top table was overturned.
He doesn't know that Darin can't hear him. It is more important to flee the scene and get away than to spend anymore time in the house.
beesy
02-24-2006, 02:40 PM
I reread my post and I never used the word novel. I said books.
Ann Rule is one of my favorites, John Douglas, and other authors have written books about crimes and the trials of the accused. Most of the crimes I have read about happened in California. Alot in Texas too.
My favorite NOVELS when I was younger- pre-teen, Nancy Drew mysteries. Everything was neatly tied up by Nancy and her best friend and no one ever got seriously hurt. LOL LOL LOL That is fiction. Police need bullet proof vests and BFG weapons.G.I.RattlesnakeJane (http://websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=9521) http://websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_981630", true);
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: LUBBOCK,TEXAS
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Reading True Crime novels
You used "novel" in your title
dasgal
02-25-2006, 10:20 AM
I appreciate your detailed response, but I still say that fatigue would effect strength. There is no evidence at all of two knives being used, with the exclusion of ForDarlie lore, so I can't take that into account either.
I do however thank you for responding with your thoughts. I can see it's not a knee jerk statement, and that means a bunch.
If you have time, I'd like you to go into more detail as to why you are convinced that two knives were used.
dasgal
02-25-2006, 10:24 AM
This would also explain wht he left Darlie's jewelry on the counter, time to leave,-G.I.
See this is a big problem for me, as well as most people. Burglars don't normally kill people, and when they do, it's because they have been cornered by someone who is threatening to them.
I honestly can't think of one real burglar (remember not robber but burglar) who has done sleeping homeowners in.
beesy
02-25-2006, 07:00 PM
[QUOTE]That's why Damon was attacked twice, imo. The killer (Darlie) didn't know he was still alive until he started to crawl away, hence the second attack with more force. That's why the depth of his injuries varies. Yep, yep:clap:
I agree with you about the blade handle and shaft. If they remove it, I'll bet you some of Devon's blood is there
I passed that theory along to her. I think it was JonGalt's. Anyway, it was somebody else's and I shared it with Jane. An interesting thing to know, but doesn't affect the outcome. Nothing quiets the Darlie supporters.
If you believe the two intruder, two knife theory, which intruder was bleeding from the forearm? And why did he lay that bloody knife down on the carpet in the murder room? Why didn't Darlie pick it up then and use it on them? Why would one intruder take his knife and the other leave one knife there, yet they take a sock! Doesn't quite make sense to me I think we'd better stick to Darlie's lame story. Even it is better than the the 2-knife, 2-intruder theory.
beesy
02-25-2006, 07:10 PM
This would also explain wht he left Darlie's jewelry on the counter, time to leave,-G.I.
See this is a big problem for me, as well as most people. Burglars don't normally kill people, and when they do, it's because they have been cornered by someone who is threatening to them.
I honestly can't think of one real burglar (remember not robber but burglar) who has done sleeping homeowners in. In MTJD, Chris says the kitchen area is too dark for an intruder to see the jewelry on the counter(the area closest to the TV). Then later, he says the intruder had plenty of light to find the butcher block. This is the type of logic we're dealing with here. :waitasec:
beesy
02-25-2006, 07:12 PM
You're right, 2 knives were used that night. One, the bread knife that cut the screen, and the other, the butcher knife to attack the victims.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-25-2006, 07:16 PM
I appreciate your detailed response, but I still say that fatigue would effect strength. There is no evidence at all of two knives being used, with the exclusion of ForDarlie lore, so I can't take that into account either.
I do however thank you for responding with your thoughts. I can see it's not a knee jerk statement, and that means a bunch.
If you have time, I'd like you to go into more detail as to why you are convinced that two knives were used.I think his name is Poole I have incorrectly identified him as Frosch in previous posts sorry.:bang:
He testified right before Bevel volume 39.
I Do trust him since he got the best training in the army. I am G.I. respectfully prejudiced.
He states he found tool marks on one of Damon's ribs and that is why he can't CONCLUSIVELY say the same knife was used. Tool marks on the knife blade that matched those of Devon's wounds couldn't be found on the same knife as the one found in the home. Of the two wounds Devon received, one was able to show these marks. The other wound was not able to detect it and was not in good quality for testing. I don't want to go into how they harvested these wounds as it is rather gory. From best I can derive from the testimony the other wound either didn't hit the ribs in the right place or was ruined in the harvesting and preparation process. I can understand why the marks wouldn't match up with his brothers as Damon's wounds didn't penetrate as much as his did. Hence the depth prevented the tool marks from being made, one problem they do have the knife and no such burrs or imperfections are on this blade. I believe Poole. To me this screams of two knives. How could the tool marks be there on his rib and not on the blade?
beesy
02-25-2006, 07:22 PM
[QUOTE]The wounds on Darlie and Damon can be traced to the same knife. No their wounds did not penetrate as far but the vertical slicing of the neck of Darlie's wound should show where the nick or burr in the blade is if it is fact the same knife used.
Frosch testified that he could not identify the weapon found as the one used on both boys and Darlie. His testimony could only say that the knives were of similar classification. If it was the same knife he would have stated it as "proof positive".
No blood was found on the knife, that belonged to Devon. I know the expert says he only tested 4 areas.
I'm sure one of the areas would be the blade shaft where it joins the handle. This is a good place for blood to "hide" as it would resist cleaning efforts better. In fact if the knife was taken apart you might still find blood at the blade and handle joining point. How did Darlie eliminate his blood from the knife. How did she get rid of the burrs and/or nicks in the knife edge.
That's not true. The M.E. said she could not say that the butcher knife cut Darlie, Damon or Devon. Yes, Darlie and Damon's blood is on it. It's very rare to hear "proof positive" from a witness. Some of Devon's blood was found on the backsplash in the kitchen as well as in the P-trap. An intruder is not going to rinse off a knife. Darlie rinsed off the knife then cut herself, then had to stab Damon again, bingo.
Devon's blood not being on the knife is just a smokescreen. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the burrs or nicks on the knife blade.
Goody
02-25-2006, 07:46 PM
I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room. A basket of clothes including socks were right by the doorway. The blood on it is a transfer stain.
.....:laugh: hahahahahahahahahahhaahhah! This is the best explanation for the sock I have heard yet!!! Static cling, eh??? What did it cling to? Sorry but I just had to ask! :laugh: :laugh:
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-25-2006, 08:47 PM
In fact it is all those little freaky things in nature things that people don't think about that gets them caught. Clinging to the fabric of the clothing of the individual. Darlie, Darin, an intruder whoever, Washed and dried clothes in a basket that haven't been folded often still have static cling until they are separated and folded.
I see this every week as I delay folding that last load of towels on laundry day..... Yuck thats tomorrow why did you have to remind me..... :laugh:
The blood on the sock is only that of the boys. So little of it is Darlie's dna that it came from saliva or skin cells. The limb hair found on the sock was not tested.
A facial hair not belonging to Darin, Darlie, was also found. Don't they keep a data base of all ambulance drivers and police officers dna. Sure would help in investigations like this one. Police and life saving teams are the 1 st responders and the ones most likely to leave false clues at crime scenes.
beesy
02-26-2006, 01:45 PM
[QUOTE]I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room. A basket of clothes including socks were right by the doorway. The blood on it is a transfer stain The blood was in drops, not a transfer. I can't even comment on the static cling idea.
The knife was from the house why take it, taking the knife brought with them would mean less chance of tracing that weapon back to them.
Because that is not normally done. If the guy was there to rob the place, fine, maybe no weapon, but if he was there to kill or kidnap, weapon. So why was he there? Douglas was referring to burglars or rapists, not killers or baby snatchers.
No blood from a 3rd party was ever found so why you think the person was bleeding from the armBecause someone bleeding from the arm held the knife in a downwards position long enough to cause the blood to accumulate at the tip. The knife was then placed down on the carpet near where Damon died which caused an outline. The blood was mostly Darlie's in the outline. So cami is asking in your theory, who did that?
Damon killed first, Damon stabbed second, Darlie third and when Damon started moving around the killer had to go back after him this could also explain why Darlie was slashed and not stabbed more. It's Devon, it's Devon, the first boy killed was the oldest son, Devon. The killer was interrupted by Damon not being dead. In a hurry the killer slices at her throat, goes after Damon but has to put the knife down in order to catch him. Stabs Damon some more and is standing there at the end of the couch when Darlie sees him. He might have decided that he is better off fleeing, than finishing the job Your intruder doesn't have enough time to do all of that. Damon would be dead before the medics got there.
This would also explain wht he left Darlie's jewelry on the counter, time to leave, to prevent being caught. There might have been enough noise downstairs to make the killer believe that anyone else in the house could have heard it too. The glass top table was overturned. So was he there to kill, snatch, rape or rob? He only did one of those and that's the one which makes the least sense for a stranger to do.
[QUOTE=G.I.RattlesnakeJane]I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room. A basket of clothes including socks were right by the doorway. The blood on it is a transfer stain.
How convenient. I wonder where Darlie's blood is on the sock? Unless the knife with the boys blood was wiped on that sock or it was dipped in their blood, how did it get there? The boys had seepage sounds, not spurting wounds. That wouldn't lend itself to cling on if the alleged intruder used it somehow to wipe or dip it in their blood and it's not logical to believe he passed through there and only transferred their blood to a sock and nothing else, a sock that just happens to follow him out, imo.
No blood from a 3rd party was ever found so why you think the person was bleeding from the arm.
No that's true it wasn't, that's one more evidentiary item that goes against Darlie. The blood evidence indicates someone bleeding from the forearm stood there, near Damon, holding the knife in his/her hand while the blood flowed down and over it concentrating in the tip. Darlie is the only one bleeding from the forearm and it's her blood on the knife.
Damon killed first, Damon stabbed second, Darlie third and when Damon started moving around the killer had to go back after him this could also explain why Darlie was slashed and not stabbed more. The killer was interrupted by Damon not being dead. In a hurry the killer slices at her throat, goes after Damon but has to put the knife down in order to catch him. Stabs Damon some more and is standing there at the end of the couch when Darlie sees him. He might have decided that he is better off fleeing, than finishing the job.
No matter who did the killing no one wanted to be caught.
I believe Devon was murdered first, then Damon was stabbed the first time. Darlie then self-inflicted her own wounds, most likely at the kitchen sink considering the amount of blood that flowed there and the clean up. Then Damon was heard moving so he was stabbed again, more forcefully, fatally. The blood indicates this is what happened. We would all like it if it did but unfortunately you have to go where the evidence leads and it all leads to her. Dalie's blood dripping off the knife onto the carpet near Damon indicates she was holding the murder weapon in the murder room and not in the kitchen as she said she had.
Quite true, no one wanted to get caught, especially not Darlie. That's an instinctive human reaction isn't it, we want to avoid repercussions when we screw up. :slap:
Mary456
02-26-2006, 08:08 PM
I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room.
What...dufus didn't bring his can of Static Guard? Silly boy :slap:
And what a tenacious tube sock it was. Hung in there for 75 yards!
Mary456
02-26-2006, 08:16 PM
:laugh: hahahahahahahahahahhaahhah! This is the best explanation for the sock I have heard yet!!! Static cling, eh??? What did it cling to? :laugh: :laugh:
Not really static cling, Goody. It was snagged on his hunting knife, and he figured if caught by the cops, he could wave it as a sign of surrender ;)
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-26-2006, 11:59 PM
The testimony about the tool marks on the knife are right before Bevels testimony in volume 39.
The static cling or even the person picking it up to wipe their hands on. 5 drops of blood were found on it 3 from 1 boy 2 from the other, according to the trial transcript.
If the reason for bringing the knife was to cut the stereo wires for a burglary to expedite the snatch and grab.
beesy
02-27-2006, 02:42 PM
[QUOTE]The testimony about the tool marks on the knife are right before Bevels testimony in volume 39. Do you know how to cut and paste? I'm very curious about this, but I don't have time to read his entire testimony. Or perhaps you could give me the Q and A numbers? What does Bevel say it means? Not what does Jane say, but Bevel?
If the reason for bringing the knife was to cut the stereo wires for a burglary to expedite the snatch and grab. What knife? What stereo? Nobody did that though. You can't just invent things. Ask Jim, you're writing a novel.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-27-2006, 07:15 PM
That's not true. The M.E. said she could not say that the butcher knife cut Darlie, Damon or Devon. Yes, Darlie and Damon's blood is on it. It's very rare to hear "proof positive" from a witness. Some of Devon's blood was found on the backsplash in the kitchen as well as in the P-trap. An intruder is not going to rinse off a knife. Darlie rinsed off the knife then cut herself, then had to stab Damon again, bingo.
Devon's blood not being on the knife is just a smokescreen. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the burrs or nicks on the knife blade.
go to volume 38 his name is Poole he found tools marks on one of Devons ribs. He testifies before Bevel. Right at the beginning I think. I am not computer savvy enough to do a cut and paste.
:laugh: hahahahahahahahahahhaahhah! This is the best explanation for the sock I have heard yet!!! Static cling, eh??? What did it cling to? Sorry but I just had to ask! :laugh: :laugh:
aaaaaaaahhahah Goody that's Jeffrey's old theory way back when from GAC. Nothing new, Jane must know Jeff, maybe they work together at the factory, er NASA
That's not true. The M.E. said she could not say that the butcher knife cut Darlie, Damon or Devon. Yes, Darlie and Damon's blood is on it. It's very rare to hear "proof positive" from a witness. Some of Devon's blood was found on the backsplash in the kitchen as well as in the P-trap. An intruder is not going to rinse off a knife. Darlie rinsed off the knife then cut herself, then had to stab Damon again, bingo.
Devon's blood not being on the knife is just a smokescreen. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the burrs or nicks on the knife blade.
Clothing fibres matching Damon's clothes were found on the knife as well as fibres from Darlie's night shirt, proving that the butcher knife was in Damon's clothes and hence his back as well as in Darlie's nightshirt. Devon was bare skinned so no clothing fibres from him on the knife. Yes, the lack of Devon's blood on the knife is just another red herring, it's on her nightshirt, the back splash and the sink trap and the tap I think as well. I don't recall testimony that Devon's ribs received any knife slashes but I would have to read the testimony and autopsy again. aaaaah found it and posted it at the end here. edited to add this.
go to volume 38 his name is Poole he found tools marks on one of Devons ribs. He testifies before Bevel. Right at the beginning I think. I am not computer savvy enough to do a cut and paste.
Yeah and here's what he says.....
9 Q. Now State's Exhibit 67. Were you also
10 asked to examine the weapon found in the Routier kitchen?
11 A. I was.
12 Q. And, did you have an opportunity to
13 compare that as well to the breast plate, the hole in
14 Devon Routier?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. What was your conclusion with that?
17 A. My conclusion was that the
18 characteristics of the damage that was present on the
19 cartilage, was similar to the test marks that I received
20 in making stabs with this knife.
21 However, I was not able to
22 conclusively determine that this was the knife that was
23 used. But my opinion would be, that a knife with similar
24 characteristics, specifically, a knife that would have
25 perhaps smooth areas in between some serrations. That is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3098
1 the kind of instrument that was -- that would have been
2 used, in my opinion.
3 Q. So, what you are saying is that these
4 knives found in the Guzman home didn't do it, and that
5 weapon No. 67 is the same class characteristics?
6
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
8 leading.
9
10 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
11 Q. Is that right?
12
13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
14 leading.
15 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.
16 Let's phrase our questions right.
17
18 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
19 Q. Is that what you are saying?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. All right.
22
23 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Pass the witness.
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3099
1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
4 Q. Just a thing or two, Mr. Poole. You
5 examined, I take it, both of those wounds, did you?
6 A. I did, sir, yes.
7 Q. Would we be safe in assuming that in
8 the course of the thoroughness of your examination, you
9 discussed those wounds with the autopsying physician?
10 A. I did not, sir.
11 Q. You did not?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Okay. I was going to ask you then if
14 you had an opinion, within your field of expertise, as to
15 whether or not the child was standing, sitting or lying
16 down, at the time that those injuries were inflicted?
17
18 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Your Honor, I'll
19 object to that, he said that he didn't have the
20 discussion.
21 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll let him
22 answer if he knows.
23 THE WITNESS: I have no opinion as to
24 the position of the victim at the time of the stabbing.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3100
1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
2 Q. Okay. Just out of curiosity, when
3 were you asked to do this analysis?
4 A. My involvement was perhaps a week or
5 maybe a week and a half before Christmas.
6 Q. In December?
7 A. Yes, sir, in December.
8 Q. Okay. And, if I understood you
9 correctly, you were saying basically, that the lower
10 wound, you can't tell whether it was made by that
11 serrated-bladed knife or not?
12 A. My answer is with regard to this knife
13 specifically, and the question being, Is this the knife
14 that did it? My answer would be I don't know.
15 Q. So you can't tell us anything really?
16 A. I can't tell -- well, I know that it
17 is a knife with characteristics like this knife, but I
18 cannot determine whether or not it is this knife or not.
19 Q. Could you tell whether or not both
20 punctures, both injuries, both stab wounds were made by
21 the same instrument?
22 A. No, sir, because the upper wound
23 didn't have any of those characteristics that I could use
24 to discriminate the characteristics of the instrument
25 that was used.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3101
1 Q. Okay. I take it then, your answer is
2 that the stab wounds as you examined them are consistent
3 with being inflicted by separate, different weapons?
4 A. No, sir. I'm not saying separate or
5 different. The one has no characteristics that I could
6 use to make any kind of judgment, other than it's there.
7 And the second one did have an abundance of markings that
8 allowed me to identify the class or the style of the
9 instrument that was used. But I cannot determine whether
10 or not this was the specific instrument used.
11 Q. And you can't tell us whether these
12 knives or knives like these could have been used to make
13 the upper injury?
14 A. That's correct, sir. I don't have any
15 idea about the instrument that was used to make that
16 upper one.
17 Q. So, you are saying that these knives
18 then could have been used to make the higher of the two
19 injuries?
20 A. Those knives and any other instrument
21 capable of penetrating.
22 Q. You know, I notice with interest
23 that -- see if you notice this: You notice that these
24 wounds are made at different angles?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
4 Q. Mr. Poole, that knife, is it still
5 there in front of you?
6 A. It's here on the side.
7 Q. State's Exhibit No. 67. Could that
8 knife have caused both wounds to Devon Routier?
9 A. It could have.
Link to Poole's testimony (http://www.justicefordarlie.net/transcripts/volumes/vol-38.php#1)
I think you took a giant step with this testimony. He does not conclusively rule out the knife used on Damon as the weapon that was used on Devon. In fact, he says the tool marks have similar characteristics to the test cuts he made.
beesy
02-27-2006, 10:26 PM
aaaaaaaahhahah Goody that's Jeffrey's old theory way back when from GAC. Nothing new, Jane must know Jeff, maybe they work together at the factory, er NASA I do believe although he was banned, he is still spreading his poisoned mouth.
beesy
02-27-2006, 11:03 PM
19 Q. Let me show you what has been admitted
20 into evidence as the Guzman -- the knives found around
21 the Guzman home, Nos. 21 and 22. And ask you if you
22 received those?
23 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
24 Q. Did you examine those knives to
25 determine if they made the wound in Devon Routier?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3097
1 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
2 Q. And what was your conclusion?
3 A. That these knives can be excluded,
4 that is, that these knives did not make at least one of
5 the cuts in the chest plate of the young -- of Devon.
6 Q. So those knives did not cause that
7 hole. Is that what you are telling us?
8 A. That's correct.
Notice the much-talked about Guzman knives are totally ruled out for the wound on which he found the tool marks. The other wound's tool marks were too degraded to test.
beesy
02-27-2006, 11:25 PM
[QUOTE]Frosch-He testifies that a serrated edge is found on the edged of the knife wounds on Devon. This could be a burr, or nick in the blade not a totally serrated knifeWhere are you getting this nick or burr thing? I saw nothing like that mentioned in Poole's testimony. One wound on Devon had a good quality tool mark and on the other wound the tool mark was damaged.
The wounds on Darlie and Damon can be traced to the same knife. No their wounds did not penetrate as far but the vertical slicing of the neck of Darlie's wound should show where the nick or burr in the blade is if it is fact the same knife usedI thought you just said the nick or burr was on the knife used to stab Devon. I'm not going to lie, you've got me so nuts I want to bash my face into the computer. Are you theorizing there's a nick or burr because Poole said something about a serration and did Poole mention a nick or burr? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_8_3.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS)
Frosch testified that he could not identify the weapon found as the one used on both boys and Darlie. His testimony could only say that the knives were of similar classification. If it was the same knife he would have stated it as "proof positive" See posts #51 and #52
I'm sure one of the areas would be the blade shaft where it joins the handle. This is a good place for blood to "hide" as it would resist cleaning efforts better. In fact if the knife was taken apart you might still find blood at the blade and handle joining point. How did Darlie eliminate his blood from the knife. How did she get rid of the burrs and/or nicks in the knife edge.
She rinsed it off. She did not have to get rid of any nicks or burrs because there weren't any
The number of wounds inflicted upon the 2nd child Damon are more numerous and show a different " style" shallower, hitting bone, all in the back. He also seems to move around the crime scene going towards the couch then away towards the direction of the front door. Less control of him, less force used to subdue him. His wounds were less severe than his brothers, less strength used on him than Devon. If the killer(s) were the parents couldn't it be surmised that Devon was killed by Darin and Damon by Darlie. Two people two different hand strengths 2 knives No, Darlie killed Devon, no doubt on that one. She thought she killed Damon, but Darin might or might not have given him the fatal wound, one knife.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
02-28-2006, 09:51 AM
I think if I do this blood reconstruction then it will help.
The position of the spots is real important too. I will attempt all scenarios put forth but I think only a few posters are cabable of directing which ones to try and duplicate.
Bevel gets very specific as to the location width between spots. I can circle this area. I think it would be wise to put Darlie in the both positions that could result in cast off in front of and behind the knife.
Bevel also gets very specific in his off canter position and I had already surmised that from the directionality of the spots and the location.
The plumb bob could help to postion my model before she starts.
I need some timing events like some knowns.
Anybody willing to make a list for me to follow.
I need to know which came first the chicken or the egg.
How much total blood volume did Darlie lose? I think I have her bleeding ability solved!
[QUOTE=beesy]Where are you getting this nick or burr thing? I saw nothing like that mentioned in Poole's testimony. One wound on Devon had a good quality tool mark and on the other wound the tool mark was damaged.
Beesy if you re read what Jane wrote, she is surmising, speculating there is a nick or a burr. There is no testimony from Poole whatsoever that the murder weapon contained nicks/burrs.
I thought you just said the nick or burr was on the knife used to stab Devon. I'm not going to lie, you've got me so nuts I want to bash my face into the computer. Are you theorizing there's a nick or burr because Poole said something about a serration and did Poole mention a nick or burr? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_8_3.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS)
See posts #51 and #52
The knife was not serrated and that's not what Poole testified to. Here is all that is mentioned about serrations:
21 However, I was not able to
22 conclusively determine that this was the knife that was
23 used. But my opinion would be, that a knife with similar
24 characteristics, specifically, a knife that would have
25 perhaps smooth areas in between some serrations. That is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3098
1 the kind of instrument that was -- that would have been
2 used, in my opinion.
3 Q. So, what you are saying is that these
4 knives found in the Guzman home didn't do it, and that
5 weapon No. 67 is the same class characteristics?
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
8 leading.
9
10 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
11 Q. Is that right?
12
13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
14 leading.
15 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.
16 Let's phrase our questions right.
17
18 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
19 Q. Is that what you are saying?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. All right.
22
23 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Pass the witness.
24
On Cross Examination, Mulder asks him if "that serrated knife" was used to make the upper stab wound...well judge for yourself but I think he is referring to the Guzman knife.
1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
2 Q. Okay. Just out of curiosity, when
3 were you asked to do this analysis?
4 A. My involvement was perhaps a week or
5 maybe a week and a half before Christmas.
6 Q. In December?
7 A. Yes, sir, in December.
8 Q. Okay. And, if I understood you
9 correctly, you were saying basically, that the lower
10 wound, you can't tell whether it was made by that
11 serrated-bladed knife or not?
12 A. My answer is with regard to this knife
13 specifically, and the question being, Is this the knife
14 that did it? My answer would be I don't know.
15 Q. So you can't tell us anything really?
16 A. I can't tell -- well, I know that it
17 is a knife with characteristics like this knife, but I
18 cannot determine whether or not it is this knife or not.
Link to the testimony (http://www.justicefordarlie.net/transcripts/volumes/vol-38.php#1)
beesy
02-28-2006, 03:28 PM
[QUOTE]The knife was not serrated and that's not what Poole testified to. Here is all that is mentioned about serrations
I understand now. Smoke and mirrors again! I was almost snared! Thank you! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_7_3.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS)
txsvicki
03-01-2006, 01:36 AM
Did I read all this correctly? The breast plate, the cartilage, was where there was more damage to either bone or cartilage in other wounds, actually penetrate, and that it showed the markings? I know from seeing a bypass operation that the area is pretty hard to cut through . Another thing that amazes me is how both boys have 1 7/8 - 2 inch wide cuts that go in between the ribs. These are the the wounds that go so deep and I do not see how a person could stab two people in the same way like that without feeling around for the space between the ribs or visualizing it. I think those wounds were planned pretty carefully. How is Jane going to recreate the rib cages and chest plate in a dummy?
beesy
03-01-2006, 08:30 AM
[QUOTE=txsvickiDid I read all this correctly? The breast plate, the cartilage, was where there was more damage to either bone or cartilage in other wounds, actually penetrate, and that it showed the markings? I know from seeing a bypass operation that the area is pretty hard to cut throughthing that amazes me is how both boys have 1 7/8 - 2 inch wide cuts that go in between the ribs. These are the the wounds that go so deep and I do not see how a person could stab two people in the same way like that without feeling around for the space between the ribs or visualizing it. I think those wounds were planned pretty carefully Yes, the wound listed as Stab Wound #1 penetrated 5" and touched his back by 1/16", so almost went all the way through him. Poole found 2 tool marks, one which was too damaged to study and the other which he said could have been caused by the white-handled knife. Go to http://www.justicefordarlie.net/galleries/galleries.php and gallery 5.
The Guzman knives found down the alley were totally ruled out, not maybe, but out, on the wound with the good tool mark. How is Jane going to recreate the rib cages and chest plate in a dummy? I hate to think
beesy
03-01-2006, 03:30 PM
He doesn't know that Darin can't hear him. It is more important to flee the scene and get away than to spend anymore time in the house. How did he know Darin was there?
beesy
03-01-2006, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE]The other wound was not able to detect it and was not in good quality for testing. I don't want to go into how they harvested these wounds as it is rather gory. From best I can derive from the testimony the other wound either didn't hit the ribs in the right place or was ruined in the harvesting and preparation process I am very curious about how they harvest wounds. I know it's gruesome, but could you explain it or post a link? I was nearly gagging reading Poole's testimony about the chest plate. I don't know, something about knowing a piece of Devon had been removed for study is worse than seeing the murder as a whole. But, gag-worthy though it will be I'd like to understand how they do it.
beesy
03-01-2006, 11:29 PM
Why did Poole say the knife which could have made the tool marks was the butcher knife, which was smooth, when in the next breath he said the knife used would be smooth with some serrations? So he says yes, could be the smooth murder weapon because it shares characteristics with the tool mark. But he adds that serration, why? If a smooth knife COULD have been used to stab Devon what characteristics does it have to a smooth and serrated knife? I know he's not saying the butcher knife is serrated. But what is he saying?:banghead:
But my opinion would be, that a knife with similar
24 characteristics, specifically, a knife that would have
25 perhaps smooth areas in between some serrations.
Why did Poole say the knife which could have made the tool marks was the butcher knife, which was smooth, when in the next breath he said the knife used would be smooth with some serrations? So he says yes, could be the smooth murder weapon because it shares characteristics with the tool mark. But he adds that serration, why? If a smooth knife COULD have been used to stab Devon what characteristics does it have to a smooth and serrated knife? I know he's not saying the butcher knife is serrated. But what is he saying?:banghead:
But my opinion would be, that a knife with similar
24 characteristics, specifically, a knife that would have
25 perhaps smooth areas in between some serrations.
I don't know, sorry.
Goody
03-02-2006, 12:59 PM
The testimony about the tool marks on the knife are right before Bevels testimony in volume 39.
The static cling or even the person picking it up to wipe their hands on. 5 drops of blood were found on it 3 from 1 boy 2 from the other, according to the trial transcript.
If the reason for bringing the knife was to cut the stereo wires for a burglary to expedite the snatch and grab.
Guess they didn't want to get blood on those stereo wires. hahahahahah.
No offense, Jane but some of this does get a bit comical.
And are you sure it was 5 drops? Was it five drops seen or 5 drops tested?
Guess they didn't want to get blood on those stereo wires. hahahahahah.
No offense, Jane but some of this does get a bit comical.
And are you sure it was 5 drops? Was it five drops seen or 5 drops tested?
Ha hahahaha as bad as Jeff and Rachel having Darin working on his mother boards with the bread knife that was used to cut the screen, hence the pvc fibreglass rod and dust on the knife and Darlie cutting up chicken that night for dinner, hence the blood washed down the sink. aaahahahahaha comical, that forum sure was good for a laugh.
Mary456
03-02-2006, 08:49 PM
Why did Poole say the knife which could have made the tool marks was the butcher knife, which was smooth, when in the next breath he said the knife used would be smooth with some serrations? So he says yes, could be the smooth murder weapon because it shares characteristics with the tool mark. But he adds that serration, why? If a smooth knife COULD have been used to stab Devon what characteristics does it have to a smooth and serrated knife? I know he's not saying the butcher knife is serrated. But what is he saying?:banghead:
But my opinion would be, that a knife with similar
24 characteristics, specifically, a knife that would have
25 perhaps smooth areas in between some serrations.
This confused the hell out of me when the transcripts were first posted. Davis kept referring to the butcher knife as a "serrated" knife...it sounded like he was talking about the bread knife. But he wasn't. He was talking about the butcher knife, which had small serrations on the edge.
Many, many knives have tiny serrations on the edge. I have a bunch of them in my kitchen. They're serrated, but don't have the the deep grooves that a bread knife has. What Poole identified in Devon's breast plate were "smooth areas in between some serrations". The butcher knife.
A woman would never describe a butcher knife as serrated; that description would be reserved for a bread knife. But Greg Davis was a man, and he made the usual man mistakes. Like referring to the bloody partial print as being on the coffee table when, in fact, it was on the sofa table. Harmless mistakes, really, but confusing to someone reading the transcript.
beesy
03-02-2006, 09:46 PM
This confused the hell out of me when the transcripts were first posted. Davis kept referring to the butcher knife as a "serrated" knife...it sounded like he was talking about the bread knife. But he wasn't. He was talking about the butcher knife, which had small serrations on the edge.
Many, many knives have tiny serrations on the edge. I have a bunch of them in my kitchen. They're serrated, but don't have the the deep grooves that a bread knife has. What Poole identified in Devon's breast plate were "smooth areas in between some serrations". The butcher knife.
A woman would never describe a butcher knife as serrated; that description would be reserved for a bread knife. But Greg Davis was a man, and he made the usual man mistakes. Like referring to the bloody partial print as being on the coffee table when, in fact, it was on the sofa table. Harmless mistakes, really, but confusing to someone reading the transcript. Thank you! Thank you! I guess looking at my own knives might have helped :doh: and I could have saved some brain power. As soon as I started reading your post, I thought oh yeah there are little thingies on my knives.Smooth on one side of the sharp part of the blade, little thingies on the other side of the sharp part. Then smooth on the the dull part. There are 4 sides to a knife. This is really well written. Not! But I get what you're saying Thank you! beesy call the little men in white and tell them not to come after all.
Mary456
03-02-2006, 09:59 PM
Thank you! Thank you! I guess looking at my own knives might have helped :doh: and I could have saved some brain power. As soon as I started reading your post, I thought oh yeah there are little thingies on my knives.Smooth on one side of the sharp part of the blade, little thingies on the other side of the sharp part. Then smooth on the the dull part. There are 4 sides to a knife. This is really well written. Not! But I get what you're saying Thank you! beesy call the little men in white and tell them not to come after all.
I already called them, and they said they get at least one call a week from a woman named Beesy, who keeps mumbling, "Darlie did it, Darlie did it."
They think you're drunk, but I know better :)
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
03-03-2006, 02:53 PM
Did I read all this correctly? The breast plate, the cartilage, was where there was more damage to either bone or cartilage in other wounds, actually penetrate, and that it showed the markings? I know from seeing a bypass operation that the area is pretty hard to cut through . Another thing that amazes me is how both boys have 1 7/8 - 2 inch wide cuts that go in between the ribs. These are the the wounds that go so deep and I do not see how a person could stab two people in the same way like that without feeling around for the space between the ribs or visualizing it. I think those wounds were planned pretty carefully. How is Jane going to recreate the rib cages and chest plate in a dummy?
I'm not. Only the bloody knife leaving the body and flinging cast off.
Wearing a white t shirt new shirt new angle of stabbing. See which direction cast off gets on the same place as the shirt Darlie was wearing.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
03-03-2006, 02:58 PM
This confused the hell out of me when the transcripts were first posted. Davis kept referring to the butcher knife as a "serrated" knife...it sounded like he was talking about the bread knife. But he wasn't. He was talking about the butcher knife, which had small serrations on the edge.
Many, many knives have tiny serrations on the edge. I have a bunch of them in my kitchen. They're serrated, but don't have the the deep grooves that a bread knife has. What Poole identified in Devon's breast plate were "smooth areas in between some serrations". The butcher knife.
A woman would never describe a butcher knife as serrated; that description would be reserved for a bread knife. But Greg Davis was a man, and he made the usual man mistakes. Like referring to the bloody partial print as being on the coffee table when, in fact, it was on the sofa table. Harmless mistakes, really, but confusing to someone reading the transcript.
Huh about the coffee or sofa table?
I thought women would call it a coffee table as we would be civilized and set a cup there. I thought men thought of it as a sofa table cause that's where they put their feet when sitting on the sofa- hence the table becomes a necessary accessory to the sofa.
What about the right hand or left hand edge on the wounds what does that mean?
Jeana (DP)
03-03-2006, 03:03 PM
A "sofa" table is a taller more narrow table that one would put behind a sofa. One that would come up to the level of the back of the sofa. A "coffee" table is one that would be put in front of a sofa or couch that is more knee level.
beesy
03-05-2006, 11:56 PM
I already called them, and they said they get at least one call a week from a woman named Beesy, who keeps mumbling, "Darlie did it, Darlie did it."
They think you're drunk, but I know better :) Did you at least leave them on stand-by?
beesy
03-05-2006, 11:59 PM
A woman would never describe a butcher knife as serrated; that description would be reserved for a bread knife. But Greg Davis was a man, and he made the usual man mistakes. Like referring to the bloody partial print as being on the coffee table when, in fact, it was on the sofa table. Harmless mistakes, really, but confusing to someone reading the transcript That's why I could never figure out where that stupid print was! Men! Sheese
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
03-06-2006, 11:57 AM
[QUOTE] I hate to think
Just the cast off, not the actual wounds into a body.
First I must establish the angles necessary to cast off the blood.
Tape laser light to end of knife. Position 2 models one in front of the trajectory of the blade and one of course is behind the blade holding it. Set up angles needed to hit target areas in shirts. See what distances models need to be. Take chalk and draw outlines on floor for models to repostions themselves in.
This allows us to accomplish 2 experiements at once. Cast off on the shirt is supposed to be from the upward swing correct?-------- slightly headed off to the left meaning an angle like this/.
Darlies left, correct?????, left if the shirt is being worn. I'm used to thinking backwards when I face a patient their right is my left. I'm assuming Bevel meant to the left if the shirt is being worn not to the left if you are looking at it face to face????????
/ or \ I need to know this angulation is VERY IMPORTANT.
A LARGE cutting board is going to be taped to the floor as a target area marked on it for the model to follow. We dont have to worry about recreating the wounds just the cast off. We can dip our knife into our blood or blood substitute no more than 5" into the solution 1 time. The exact depths, for each wound, can be marked on the blade for reference.
Lightly holding the knife in between the fingers in a baggie, the knife can slowly-don't cut the baggie, hold lightly- be withdrawn. This would closely simulate the way the body wipes the blood from the knife as it is withdrawn from the wound.The appropriate angle of the wounds then can be held over the cutting board and the model can swing the knife upward. If we do our math correctly before hand and set this up with the laser light first we can eliminate a lot of----- bad pun here hit and miss . Anybody else think of anything else safer?? I don't think a downward stabbing move will be needed to recreate a upward swing cast off.
Goody
03-06-2006, 05:42 PM
Thank you! Thank you! I guess looking at my own knives might have helped :doh: and I could have saved some brain power. As soon as I started reading your post, I thought oh yeah there are little thingies on my knives.Smooth on one side of the sharp part of the blade, little thingies on the other side of the sharp part. Then smooth on the the dull part. There are 4 sides to a knife. This is really well written. Not! But I get what you're saying Thank you! beesy call the little men in white and tell them not to come after all.
Why was my "serrations are not always visible" not good enough? I agree that Mary's explanation is the best said so far though.
Goody
03-06-2006, 05:47 PM
A "sofa" table is a taller more narrow table that one would put behind a sofa. One that would come up to the level of the back of the sofa. A "coffee" table is one that would be put in front of a sofa or couch that is more knee level.
I thought the sofa table was what we used to call end tables, with a stair step shape. So it is a table, round or square, that is high up to the sofa's what?....tallest point? That is a better visual that some new version of the old end table.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
03-06-2006, 06:44 PM
I thought the sofa table was what we used to call end tables, with a stair step shape. So it is a table, round or square, that is high up to the sofa's what?....tallest point? That is a better visual that some new version of the old end table.
The long straight sofa table or etage'- my mother in law calls hers that. I always thought than an etage' was a cabinet with glass in it but she swears the table she has right behind the sofa as it is the height of the sofa back is an etage'
I think it is the long table with the Roman bust on it that is sitting behind the couch.
Goody
03-06-2006, 07:42 PM
The long straight sofa table or etage'- my mother in law calls hers that. I always thought than an etage' was a cabinet with glass in it but she swears the table she has right behind the sofa as it is the height of the sofa back is an etage'
I think it is the long table with the Roman bust on it that is sitting behind the couch.
O, that is so funny. I have read that they called the family room the "roman room" or the "roaming room." The latter came with an explanation that when the boys were little they would "roam" all over into uncharted territory and that is where the name came from. Now you say there is a Roman bust in the room. Gees, ask Mama Darlie sometime what the real story behind that nickname is. I always call it the family room because I don't know which it is.
beesy
03-06-2006, 09:11 PM
Why was my "serrations are not always visible" not good enough? I agree that Mary's explanation is the best said so far though. Ha! I guess not. MUST spell things out for beesy sllllllllowwwllly
beesy
03-06-2006, 09:20 PM
I thought the sofa table was what we used to call end tables, with a stair step shape. So it is a table, round or square, that is high up to the sofa's what?....tallest point? That is a better visual that some new version of the old end table. End tables are the height of the sofa's arms. I didn't know what to call the table Darlie had sitting behind the sofa(on kitchen side). My mother has one, but she just calls it a table. LOL Fancy we are. Jeana calls it a sofa table and that makes sense to me. So the smudged print was on the sofa table, not the dang coffee table, which is the thing that was tipped over.
Ok, I looked it up and found this. I obviously do not shop for furniture! End tables, occasional tables, agenda tables, cocktail tables, coffee tables, sofa tables, Wow! One of the things they call a sofa table I would call a chest. In fact, I have one! Learn something new everyday!
http://www.everythingfurniture.com/cocktailtables.html
beesy
03-06-2006, 09:26 PM
O, that is so funny. I have read that they called the family room the "roman room" or the "roaming room." The latter came with an explanation that when the boys were little they would "roam" all over into uncharted territory and that is where the name came from. Now you say there is a Roman bust in the room. Gees, ask Mama Darlie sometime what the real story behind that nickname is. I always call it the family room because I don't know which it is. Don Davis says they called it the "roaming room" after the rowdy boys. I've always seen it as "Roman Room" in the other books, and in interviews. There are Roman busts and sconces all around.
http://www.justicefordarlie.net/galleries/galleries.php Gallery 1, picture 7
Gallery 4, picture 3. She sure had alot of furniture in crammed in that room. Wonder why those intruders didn't make more of a mess?
Mary456
03-06-2006, 11:35 PM
O, that is so funny. I have read that they called the family room the "roman room" or the "roaming room." The latter came with an explanation that when the boys were little they would "roam" all over into uncharted territory and that is where the name came from. Now you say there is a Roman bust in the room. Gees, ask Mama Darlie sometime what the real story behind that nickname is. I always call it the family room because I don't know which it is.
They called it the Roman Room, Goody, because the family room had a Roman theme...the pictures, vases, wallpaper border, etc. The Gladiator would have felt right at home there.
I have no idea why Don Davis called it the "roamin' room". Probably for the same reason he said Darlie was sleeping downstairs...too hot on the second floor. He didn't nail down all the facts before he wrote his book.
But, in a way, he did get it right. Heat rises, and I'll bet there were flames shooting from Darlie's head right up the stairs into the master bedroom.
Mary456
03-06-2006, 11:47 PM
Did you at least leave them on stand-by?
Yes, bees! They have promised to ignore all child abuse, murder, burglary, and assult charges until they have attended to your needs.
Go quietly and cooperate. They love you, they really do :behindbar
I don't know, sorry.
Actually, I checked out my son's knives...he's a cook people... and he does have one butcher knife that has a smooth blade in between serrations, but the serrations are tiny, not like a bread knife or steak knife...it's hard to explain unless you see it.
Lol,note to self....read the whole thread before replying.
Jeana (DP)
03-07-2006, 01:25 PM
I thought the sofa table was what we used to call end tables, with a stair step shape. So it is a table, round or square, that is high up to the sofa's what?....tallest point? That is a better visual that some new version of the old end table.
Mine sits behind one of the sofas and the edge of it comes up right about to the top of the back of my sofa. Its long (almost the length of the sofa) and narrow. Some people keep photos on them. We've got a chess set and candles. End tables are at the "ends" of the sofas and a coffee table would be in front of the sofa. At least that's my lingo!! :rolleyes: Who knows!!
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
03-09-2006, 08:35 PM
I don't know, sorry.
This is why I sumised he meant a nick or burr in the blade as it would leave a mark like serrations do.
Since the blade isn't serrated and the wound has areas where tool marks of serations are found I asssumed that in order for it to be the same knife the serrations were actually blade imperfections.
beesy
03-09-2006, 10:17 PM
This is why I sumised he meant a nick or burr in the blade as it would leave a mark like serrations do.
Since the blade isn't serrated and the wound has areas where tool marks of serations are found I asssumed that in order for it to be the same knife the serrations were actually blade imperfections. No, he's talking about those little itty bitty marks(serrations) on the sharp part of the blade. All of my knives have them. I don't know why even felt the need to say it.
beesy
03-09-2006, 10:19 PM
Mine sits behind one of the sofas and the edge of it comes up right about to the top of the back of my sofa. Its long (almost the length of the sofa) and narrow. Some people keep photos on them. We've got a chess set and candles. End tables are at the "ends" of the sofas and a coffee table would be in front of the sofa. At least that's my lingo!! :rolleyes: Who knows!! Ok, so was the bloody partial print on the coffee table or the sofa table?
Jeana (DP)
03-10-2006, 09:24 AM
Ok, so was the bloody partial print on the coffee table or the sofa table?
I read "coffee" table, I believe, but again, we don't know which one they think a "coffee" table would be to them. ;)
justice2
03-10-2006, 03:55 PM
The crime scene layout at fordarlieroutier shows the print on the table behind the sofa.
http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/MediaArticles/Other/press.pdf
beesy
03-10-2006, 05:34 PM
The crime scene layout at fordarlieroutier shows the print on the table behind the sofa.
http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/MediaArticles/Other/press.pdf Thanks! I've never seen that before. Maybe we should call it the table behind the sofa and the table in front of the sofa.
Isn't Darlie lying on her side in that diagram?
justice2
03-10-2006, 06:21 PM
Thanks! I've never seen that before. Maybe we should call it the table behind the sofa and the table in front of the sofa.
Isn't Darlie lying on her side in that diagram? Yes, it has her lying on her right side.
A sofa table is usually taller, longer and narrower than a coffee and/or end table. My end table is about the height of where you sit on a sofa and my sofa table is about 6" taller than the end table.
You can touch the top of a sofa table standing up, but you need to bend over a little bit to touch the end table. In otherwords, it looks like someone touched the table while they were walking by it. IMO. Course I thinking of an adult, not a kid.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
03-11-2006, 09:21 AM
The crime scene layout at fordarlieroutier shows the print on the table behind the sofa.
http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/MediaArticles/Other/press.pdf
I noticed something in the link you posted. This shows where Darlie says she was, and where the boys where found. If they were sleeping and Damon was closer to the other two they might not be visible from the kitchen. The height of the sofas, the sofa table with the bust on it,etc. Not until you got into the RR would you see the family.
The TV being on seems to throw some light into the room, but where Devon was, a hole of light would be on the floor. If staying up to watch TV he might have positioned himself where the light from the TV doesn't hit the floor. You can see just fine but the alternating light flickers wouldn't wake you if you fell asleep.
I was at a friends house the other night our hubbies play softball together and they had a late game. We where in another room and the kids wanted to wait up to see how daddy did. They had gotton their pillows and blankets and had camped out in front of the TV. When we checked in on them they were out cold but I noticed that they had positioned themselves around the TV but just out of its light. I thought about it and asked my friend if they had their own spots in the den they usually took or what.
She told me they each had a preferred place to sit and 1 of them liked the floor with a pillow when it came to family time TV watching. When it came to sleep overs or letting them stay up late they had their own places for that too, just out of the flickering light of the TV.
Don't know if it even relates to this case but it was an observance that I thought I might point out and ask if it is similar to other peoples children or even themselves.
ssiegmund
05-31-2006, 10:54 AM
Hi, first time poster on this case. Could Damon's wounds have been less forceful because by this time the killer was starting to feel remorseful about his or her actions? In the Lizzie Borden case, the stepmother's wounds were quite vicious, but Lizzie's father's wounds were much more hesitant, as if the killer was thinking, Well, I'm in this far, now I have to finish what I started. I don't think you necessarily need two killers to get two kinds of wounds, just two different mind sets.
Jeana (DP)
05-31-2006, 11:08 AM
Hi, first time poster on this case. Could Damon's wounds have been less forceful because by this time the killer was starting to feel remorseful about his or her actions? In the Lizzie Borden case, the stepmother's wounds were quite vicious, but Lizzie's father's wounds were much more hesitant, as if the killer was thinking, Well, I'm in this far, now I have to finish what I started. I don't think you necessarily need two killers to get two kinds of wounds, just two different mind sets.
Hi and welcome!! You could have a point. Also could be fatigue setting in. Its actually quite strenuous to stab someone.
lilywhite
04-13-2007, 04:57 PM
The crime scene layout at fordarlieroutier shows the print on the table behind the sofa.
http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/MediaArticles/Other/press.pdf
I find it creepy and strange that Darlie is an actual body in that diagram and the boys are grey Xs.
No that that means a darn thing; Darline didn't draw it. But it just creeps me out.
IrishMist
04-13-2007, 07:12 PM
Mine sits behind one of the sofas and the edge of it comes up right about to the top of the back of my sofa. Its long (almost the length of the sofa) and narrow. Some people keep photos on them. We've got a chess set and candles. End tables are at the "ends" of the sofas and a coffee table would be in front of the sofa. At least that's my lingo!! :rolleyes: Who knows!!
Same lingo here, Jeana. And I'm one of those that keeps photos on my sofa table. :)
dasgal
07-31-2007, 01:44 PM
They called it the Roman Room, Goody, because the family room had a Roman theme...the pictures, vases, wallpaper border, etc. The Gladiator would have felt right at home there.
I have no idea why Don Davis called it the "roamin' room". Probably for the same reason he said Darlie was sleeping downstairs...too hot on the second floor. He didn't nail down all the facts before he wrote his book.
But, in a way, he did get it right. Heat rises, and I'll bet there were flames shooting from Darlie's head right up the stairs into the master bedroom.
Actually, it was a pun, a play on words....like calling your dog King Arfer. It was a roaming room with an Italian touch. But both words of description are correct.
dasgal
08-01-2007, 03:42 PM
Man, I missed a bunch of misinfo on this thread. As I have time, I'll try to set it straight, at least IMO using evidence.
dasgal
08-01-2007, 03:57 PM
I think his name is Poole I have incorrectly identified him as Frosch in previous posts sorry.:bang:
He testified right before Bevel volume 39.
I Do trust him since he got the best training in the army. I am G.I. respectfully prejudiced.
He states he found tool marks on one of Damon's ribs and that is why he can't CONCLUSIVELY say the same knife was used. Tool marks on the knife blade that matched those of Devon's wounds couldn't be found on the same knife as the one found in the home. Of the two wounds Devon received, one was able to show these marks. The other wound was not able to detect it and was not in good quality for testing. I don't want to go into how they harvested these wounds as it is rather gory. From best I can derive from the testimony the other wound either didn't hit the ribs in the right place or was ruined in the harvesting and preparation process. I can understand why the marks wouldn't match up with his brothers as Damon's wounds didn't penetrate as much as his did. Hence the depth prevented the tool marks from being made, one problem they do have the knife and no such burrs or imperfections are on this blade. I believe Poole. To me this screams of two knives. How could the tool marks be there on his rib and not on the blade?
This in no way is a positive result for two knives. In fact, how can two knives be so simular, with different strokes.
Answer is fatigue. You are going from one hand and one angle, to another.
The whole "two knives" thing is total folklore.
dasgal
08-01-2007, 04:07 PM
I'm not. Only the bloody knife leaving the body and flinging cast off.
Wearing a white t shirt new shirt new angle of stabbing. See which direction cast off gets on the same place as the shirt Darlie was wearing.
I would like to know your hours of study on blood drops drips, flings, cast off and arterial.
The fact is, you are guessing. Unfortunately, you are very far off.
lucchesicourt
03-15-2008, 08:49 PM
Everyone is worried about her 16 different versions of what happened, right? Myself, I would be worried that each time she answered the question she said exactlythe same reply!! Why? If you were planning a murder wouldn't you make sure you knew it so well you would say exactly the same reply each time? And even if your answer didn't make sense to the investigator, you could say that is how I recall it. Someone whose story is changing shows a lack of rehearsing. Think about that!
Crow_Ascending
03-19-2008, 08:24 PM
I don't know if you've actually researched the stories Darlie has told about the supposed intruder, but she either fought with him in the middle of the living room (accounting for the damage there) or she fought with him on the sofa, or she woke up with him on top of her, or she woke up with him on top of her while he was running a knife across her face, or she fought with him at the kitchen counter. On the stand Darlie finally had to take refuge in the 'traumtic amnesia' cop-out and claim she couldn't remember any attack.
whitywendy
03-20-2008, 08:41 AM
Everyone is worried about her 16 different versions of what happened, right? Myself, I would be worried that each time she answered the question she said exactlythe same reply!! Why? If you were planning a murder wouldn't you make sure you knew it so well you would say exactly the same reply each time? And even if your answer didn't make sense to the investigator, you could say that is how I recall it. Someone whose story is changing shows a lack of rehearsing. Think about that!
You can't rehearse your answers when they have to account for the evidence that contradicts your "original statement". This is IMO why she had so many different stories.
GIRattlesnakeJane
04-18-2008, 12:22 AM
I don't know if you've actually researched the stories Darlie has told about the supposed intruder, but she either fought with him in the middle of the living room (accounting for the damage there) or she fought with him on the sofa, or she woke up with him on top of her, or she woke up with him on top of her while he was running a knife across her face, or she fought with him at the kitchen counter. On the stand Darlie finally had to take refuge in the 'traumtic amnesia' cop-out and claim she couldn't remember any attack.
I never remember or can find in her statements saying a fight occurred anywhere except while she was being attacked which according to her was the sofa.
Where are her statements that a fight occurred in the middle of the room or in the kitchen I haven't seen or heard that before, only that she tried to fight off her attacker. The living room besides having blood all over it had only an overturned coffee table top and a lamp shade ascew. The lack of evidence any fight took place in the middle of the room was why police said she only took the coffee table top(glass) and turned it over. She had to grab the underside of the table to turn it over turn if she even if she was staging it. That glass is pretty thick so it would be heavy and require someone to grab the table top from the underside to move it. Just try and move anything heavy and flat. Notice how you have to grab it to get a hold on it.
Where is the knife across the face statement.
Question?? Was the underside of the table dusted for prints and if yes were they Darlies? If yes I predict at least 4 fingers would have been used as the thumb would remain on top.You couldn't flip it over with just a finger or two. I loaned out and never got back my copy of MTJD. I know it had a photo of the table overturned.
Crow_Ascending
04-20-2008, 09:00 PM
The books written about the case and the transcripts.
GIRattlesnakeJane
04-20-2008, 09:31 PM
The books written about the case and the transcripts.
The "facts" written in books both pro and con do not match the evidence.
In one book the writer states that stab wounds penetrated all the way thru the body but the autopsy reports indicate that was false. I think that was Hush Little Babies. The writer has now withdrawn her statements.
There is also some false facts produced by both sides and perpetrated as facts in forums like this one.
I used to believe everything pro-Darlie but now I am relying on only facts that can be proven (forensic evidence) by the trial testimony or sworn statements.
Crow_Ascending
04-22-2008, 07:30 AM
I guess that's a good 'out' - ignore what you don't like.
GIRattlesnakeJane
04-22-2008, 10:18 AM
Not ignore, just take with a grain of salt.
I DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING EITHER SIDE PUTS FORTH.
Both sides have an agenda and in order to be objective I must recognize that.
Anais
04-22-2008, 09:32 PM
You can't rehearse your answers when they have to account for the evidence that contradicts your "original statement". This is IMO why she had so many different stories.
Good point! I'm staying out of it cause it's like beating a dead horse already. Enough is enough! :rolleyes:
MomofBoys
01-03-2009, 01:20 PM
I'm a first-time poster in this section. My name is Devon, and as weird as it is to say, this case has always resonated with me because of that. Now that I'm a mother, doubly so.
Anyway, I have a few questions I can't seem to find the answer for, and this seems to be the most active thread.
First, I see reference to a thread regarding members' theories on Darlie's motives. Can anyone point me to a link? As much as it's unfathomable to me that a mother could do this, I also don't see this as the poster-case for a stranger killing. No theft. No rape. Incapacitating the weakest people in the house first, silent dog, suddenly heavy sleeper Darlie, etc, etc.
I know I need to read the transcripts, but my journey is just beginning here. Reading Darlie's various accounts, it seems like little Damon was up and following his mother around (?) prior to his death--that she didn't even notice his gaping wounds at first. Then she said that she told him to rest on his stomach. Do the forensics bear this out? I'm also not sure, in that situation, that I'd have the presence of mind to tell my boys to lie on their bellies. I mean, that's neither here or there, but I think without medical knowledge, my instincts as a mom would be to put the child on his back and tell them to apply pressure while I called 911. Again, it probably means nothing, but I was struck by it because...
...in the position where Damon was found, where was his head pointing? I swear I read once it was toward the front door. It's a bit tough to tell in the crime scene layout. Is that true, or a surmisation? The thing that has always stood out to me is that Damon was crawling as if it escape. Escape out, where the "killer(s)" might be, instead of getting to his mother and seeking her protection.
I don't know. Thinking of their last moments makes me physically ill. I've heard so many stories about Damon's actions right before his death and there seems to be a lot of inconsistencies. To me, the one where she tells him to rest on his belly seems the most troubling, because it could be construed as an attempt to his explain his movement and explain away a second attempt to kill him. I know we weren't there, but to have him up and about and then dead on the spot facing away from the murder room...it just seems odd to me.
Sorry that was long. I'm mainly trying to work out the scenario in my head. I'm new at this.
awareness
02-12-2009, 06:42 PM
Im new at WS in general myself, I came over here to discuss this specific case and got tied up for several days reading the transcripts (then didnt come back here for a long time!).
IIRC the forensic evidence didn't 100% tie into Darlies version(s) of the story of what happened that night. Im sure other more knowledgeable posters can answer specifics. I do recommend reading the trial transcripts though, IMO they are very telling albeit a long read.
JMO/IMO
coloradoteacher
02-18-2009, 12:13 AM
As far as Damon's movements, I completely agree and it is this movement that makes the darlie did it theory more likely for me. I think she stabbed and killed Devon and in doing so got many of her bruises (if you watch the leeza show exerpt the juror on there said that is what the jury believed- she got the bruises from devon kicking her - he had bruised heels and two defensive cuts). she then went and stabbed Damon twice. Then she went and depositied the sock, cut the screen, etc. She then cut herself, washing the knife before she does so, removing all but a trace of Devon's blood from the knife. when she went back in to do more staging and plant blood evidence in the family room, she saw damon had crawled some distance and then stabbed him again. The timeline of his 9 minutes starts then, not with his original stabbing, which gives her more than enough time to finish staging the evidence, brake the glass, scream for Darin and call 911.
Somewhere in there, she leaves the knife on the carpet, leaving the imprint, but I need more info on where the knife imprint was- I cannot remember specifially enough to place it in the timeline. My thought would be it was while she was getting the sock to dip in the boys blood and it would have been found by where Damon was orginally laying.
Feel free to add or tell me where I have gone wrong- it is just my opinion from all that I have read.
On another note- I am curious as to the many stories I have read about what happened before darin went to sleep- I have heard a divorce fight (numerous references- cannot pin down source), they had sex on the couch after going into the hot tub (Barbara Davis's book) and just words with some kissing(Darlie's official story). This bothers me almost as much as the many different stories of the murder- something is being covered up there- if they did have sex/hot tub- that could explain the missing panties. The big fight theory would add a lot to the motive because of Darlie's histrionic tendencies. I'd like to hear some theories/facts yall have heard about this!
LCoastMom
02-22-2009, 05:58 PM
I think the problem with this case is Darlie is not a sympathetic victim. We don't automatically 'like her' when we see her. I can't explain those statements, but I don't think it's a good enough reason to convict someone of murder.
I read everything thing I could get my hands on on this case without ever watching any of the vids. I saw a couple of still photos of her taken in jail, that was it. I could not understand how this woman was ever convicted. She was so obviously not guilty, what happened? Was it a police mess up and they made the evidence fit what they wanted it to be? I really couldn't understand. I still don't completely understand. By reading the reports, by reading what others have written, I could not have convicted her based on what I read and what I believed to be true.
The discrepancies in her accounts of the attack and the time immediately following the attack could easily be explained by the horrific injuries she suffered. She almost died. Then there is PPSD and survivors guilt. All those things explain away any little changes in her story (to me).
Then I viewed a few of the vids used by LE to help convict her and it worked, with in minutes I was ranting (at my PC) about this beotch who was trying to get away with murdering her kids! WHAT? I can't explain it. She didn't come off as sincere, there was something about her.
I took a couple of giant steps backwards, I still don't feel in my heart, from reading the evidence, that she is guilty of anything. I know those of you who feel she is guilty can't "undo" the damage done by watching Darlie in motion. All I can suggest is you reread the initial reports. Read the out cry and other witness statements. Keep an open mind.
Guilty or innocent it is wiser to give her a new trial, then to let her conviction stand and carry out her sentence and sometime down the road discover an innocent woman was put to death.
CyberLaw
02-22-2009, 08:53 PM
I really don't think an innocent women is going to be put to death. There is no indication of anyone else committing this crime, there has been no DNA linked to anyone but Darlie and all of the evidence that has been presented in court lead to the finding of guilt.
There is only one true story of any account. The true story. If you have to change your story 16 times to "fit the every increasing" evidence discovered against you, then you are guilty and trying to "fit your "new" stories with the evidence.
The story of when she first woke up is very telling, the 911 call also.
There are just too many stories to believe Darlie. Of course a person may may "make" slight mistakes or variations in their story, but not the material details.
it is funny that Darlie remember details right after the incident, days and weeks and months, but on the witness stand, she just forgot all of those "incriminating" details.
Again, I have zero doubt that Darlie is guilty.
I'm a first-time poster in this section. My name is Devon, and as weird as it is to say, this case has always resonated with me because of that. Now that I'm a mother, doubly so.
Anyway, I have a few questions I can't seem to find the answer for, and this seems to be the most active thread.
First, I see reference to a thread regarding members' theories on Darlie's motives. Can anyone point me to a link? As much as it's unfathomable to me that a mother could do this, I also don't see this as the poster-case for a stranger killing. No theft. No rape. Incapacitating the weakest people in the house first, silent dog, suddenly heavy sleeper Darlie, etc, etc.
I know I need to read the transcripts, but my journey is just beginning here. Reading Darlie's various accounts, it seems like little Damon was up and following his mother around (?) prior to his death--that she didn't even notice his gaping wounds at first. Then she said that she told him to rest on his stomach. Do the forensics bear this out? I'm also not sure, in that situation, that I'd have the presence of mind to tell my boys to lie on their bellies. I mean, that's neither here or there, but I think without medical knowledge, my instincts as a mom would be to put the child on his back and tell them to apply pressure while I called 911. Again, it probably means nothing, but I was struck by it because...
...in the position where Damon was found, where was his head pointing? I swear I read once it was toward the front door. It's a bit tough to tell in the crime scene layout. Is that true, or a surmisation? The thing that has always stood out to me is that Damon was crawling as if it escape. Escape out, where the "killer(s)" might be, instead of getting to his mother and seeking her protection.
I don't know. Thinking of their last moments makes me physically ill. I've heard so many stories about Damon's actions right before his death and there seems to be a lot of inconsistencies. To me, the one where she tells him to rest on his belly seems the most troubling, because it could be construed as an attempt to his explain his movement and explain away a second attempt to kill him. I know we weren't there, but to have him up and about and then dead on the spot facing away from the murder room...it just seems odd to me.
Sorry that was long. I'm mainly trying to work out the scenario in my head. I'm new at this.
This is what proves to me Darlie is a psycopath. Damon was not walking behind her at all..with six stab wounds into his back and his internal organs. Who does she think she's trying to kid? Yet, in the face of evidence to the contrary, Darlie will look you straight in the eyes and lie that he was following her and she told him to stay back.
The blood trail proves that Damon was stabbed in his original position in front of the couch Darlie was allegedly sleeping on, then at the wall to the entryway where he was stabbed again and stopped...his blood and Darlie's blood were found on the wall there. He was probably trying to get away but he was dragging himself, not walking and talking.
You'd need to go back at least a year prior to the murders to discover the motive...it's tied up in the family dynamic. This is domestic violence...no one knows what Darlie's motive was but we can speculate.
I too have zero doubt that Darlie is guilty
As far as Damon's movements, I completely agree and it is this movement that makes the darlie did it theory more likely for me. I think she stabbed and killed Devon and in doing so got many of her bruises (if you watch the leeza show exerpt the juror on there said that is what the jury believed- she got the bruises from devon kicking her - he had bruised heels and two defensive cuts). she then went and stabbed Damon twice. Then she went and depositied the sock, cut the screen, etc. She then cut herself, washing the knife before she does so, removing all but a trace of Devon's blood from the knife. when she went back in to do more staging and plant blood evidence in the family room, she saw damon had crawled some distance and then stabbed him again. The timeline of his 9 minutes starts then, not with his original stabbing, which gives her more than enough time to finish staging the evidence, brake the glass, scream for Darin and call 911.
Somewhere in there, she leaves the knife on the carpet, leaving the imprint, but I need more info on where the knife imprint was- I cannot remember specifially enough to place it in the timeline. My thought would be it was while she was getting the sock to dip in the boys blood and it would have been found by where Damon was orginally laying.
Feel free to add or tell me where I have gone wrong- it is just my opinion from all that I have read.
On another note- I am curious as to the many stories I have read about what happened before darin went to sleep- I have heard a divorce fight (numerous references- cannot pin down source), they had sex on the couch after going into the hot tub (Barbara Davis's book) and just words with some kissing(Darlie's official story). This bothers me almost as much as the many different stories of the murder- something is being covered up there- if they did have sex/hot tub- that could explain the missing panties. The big fight theory would add a lot to the motive because of Darlie's histrionic tendencies. I'd like to hear some theories/facts yall have heard about this!
The knife imprint was found closer to Devon's body, not Damon's. I think Darlie or Darin snowed Babs on the sex in the hot tub story. Darlie was very angry that day..angry at Darin, angry at the boys. When Darin finally returned home from dropping Dana, I believe she lit into him big time. We know they had a huge fight that night and Darlie asked for a separation. You can hear the anger in her voice on the 911 call.
Some of us specualate that since Damon moved, she put that knife down near Devon to check he was dead and not moving after she had stabbed Damon the second time.
I believe the missing panties are a red herring, she could have removed them and put them in the dirty wash. Unless this intruder only wanted a sock and a pair of panties when there was gold jewellry and a wallet with cash in it lying there..but I don't see that as feasable.
Everyone is worried about her 16 different versions of what happened, right? Myself, I would be worried that each time she answered the question she said exactlythe same reply!! Why? If you were planning a murder wouldn't you make sure you knew it so well you would say exactly the same reply each time? And even if your answer didn't make sense to the investigator, you could say that is how I recall it. Someone whose story is changing shows a lack of rehearsing. Think about that!
It also shows conscienciousness of guilt. Think about that.
Debbie Miller
03-14-2009, 01:31 AM
I have never posted on this thread, but reading all the info has me glued.
When this first made the air waves , I felt that Darlie did it. Many feel she did and many feel she didn't. There could be an answer to this as well as the two (intruder) theory. Darlie and unnamed, who are in the same body. In short she could very well have a personality disorder, this could explain why Darlie couldn't explain certain things, because it was her (alter) doing the crime at the time. It is very hard to explain unless you read on the subject or have some insight to it.
Look at Susan Smith, it is said that she had borderline personality disorder.
Just something else to consider.
sindydee
04-04-2009, 08:09 AM
I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room. A basket of clothes including socks were right by the doorway. The blood on it is a transfer stain.
The knife was from the house why take it, taking the knife brought with them would mean less chance of tracing that weapon back to them.
No blood from a 3rd party was ever found so why you think the person was bleeding from the arm.
Damon killed first, Damon stabbed second, Darlie third and when Damon started moving around the killer had to go back after him this could also explain why Darlie was slashed and not stabbed more. The killer was interrupted by Damon not being dead. In a hurry the killer slices at her throat, goes after Damon but has to put the knife down in order to catch him. Stabs Damon some more and is standing there at the end of the couch when Darlie sees him. He might have decided that he is better off fleeing, than finishing the job.
No matter who did the killing no one wanted to be caught.
This would also explain why he left Darlie's jewelry on the counter, time to leave, to prevent being caught. There might have been enough noise downstairs to make the killer believe that anyone else in the house could have heard it too. The glass top table was overturned.
He doesn't know that Darin can't hear him. It is more important to flee the scene and get away than to spend anymore time in the house.
The thing that puzzles me is, (the whole case lol) if there was an intruder then he must have been going there for 2 reasons. Firstly to break in and steel or secondly to harm someone. If you were going to burgle someones house surely you would want to make sure that no one is home. Why would you try and burgle a house that you can see has a tv on if you look through the window? Secondly, if you are going to cause harm to someone, wouldn't you take your weapon of choice with you? I would imagine that it has been methodically planned down to the last detail. (Unless you are completly insane and just decide you are going to break into someones house and kill whoever is there using what ever you can find). I know you often see in movies the killer picking up a knife in a kitchen wearing black gloves and then goes on to murder whoever is in the house, but I would imagine this is very rare in the real world.
Also how did the intruder cut the screen to get in? I couldn't imagine they would be messing around using a kinife in their pocket then put the knife back in their pocket and pick up one in the kitchen to go on and kill.
Or maybe they did. I guess we all try and think of this from a rational point of view, but seeing as you have to be warped to kill someone, who knows what these individuals think like.
From the other point of view, maybe Darcie was in extreme shock. Who knows how we would act if we were in that situation. I think I would have passed out due to fright and shock to be honest. Also she was heavily medicated for a while after it happened, so the different stories she told people could have been what she was thinking at the time.
Then there's the evidence.... I'll stop talking now lol..
Curious Me
08-16-2009, 11:14 PM
There's the main website for EYES FOR LIES that has a new blog about Darlie Routier:
Sorry, for some reason it won't let me post the link. You'll have to do a browser search for
EYES FOR LIES . COM
http://www.***********.com/ this won't work
then go to the blog portion about Darlie.
Eyes for Lies is one of the real "naturals" as depicted on the tv show LIE TO ME (Fox Network's Drama about Human Lie Detectors)
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