Rebecca Nalepa - suicide or murder? #6 [Archive] - Page 4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Kimster

08-21-2011, 11:19 PM

Thank you for keeping us within TOS code. That said, I think it's in the interest of WS and all posting that, if as one participant recently posted, we can be subpoened by LE for our postings. Is this the case?

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Inobu

08-21-2011, 11:19 PM

My opinion is just based on the timing and the fact that Maxie was injured while in her care. It has been said that she blamed herself but I also think his parents blamed her and that is what triggered her suicide.

What is your theory in which RN carried out the suicide? Please state the evidence that you base the theory on.

The only thing we have are the "blurry images unless you have something else? You seem to be well versed in the law so no emotional conclusions.

If someone give me a compelling theory I have no choice but to accept. I have not see it yet to date it has been hypothetical scenarios of how she might have felt or done.

Inobu

Kimster

08-21-2011, 11:23 PM

are you referring to my post because that's not exactly what I said.

No, I answered that question. Continue on and if you are stating facts, be sure to back them up with a link. If it's your opinion only, please let the members know that. And remember that all opinions have to tie in with the case somehow or they are considered rumor and will be removed.

If you have inside information you would like to share, it must be approved beforehand. Please email wsverify@xmission.com for more information, or you can see the information at the bottom of this post: Professional Posters & Verified Locals / Insiders *MAIN PAGE* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

MyBelle

08-21-2011, 11:25 PM

[/B]

BBM

please provide link; I don't recall it being reported that she blamed herself. TIA

Thank you for your opinion. I disagree. Too many things on the suicide checklist:

get rope
tie to furniture or something in bedroom
go get orange, manly electrical cords
bound hands
bound feet
get noose around neck*
get table
stand on table
oh, put on lovely blue scarf
step off table

*balance self on railing
and spin around
jump off balcony

all in the dark!!

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Coronado-Mansion-Mystery-a-Suicide-Source-128124368.html

jjenny

08-21-2011, 11:29 PM

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Coronado-Mansion-Mystery-a-Suicide-Source-128124368.html

I am really curious as to who would tell LE RN felt tremendous guilt. I doubt it was her family since the sister just talked to her and believed RN was "fine."

MyBelle

08-21-2011, 11:33 PM

What is your theory in which RN carried out the suicide? Please state the evidence that you base the theory on.

The only thing we have are the "blurry images unless you have something else? You seem to be well versed in the law so no emotional conclusions.

If someone give me a compelling theory I have no choice but to accept. I have not see it yet to date it has been hypothetical scenarios of how she might have felt or done.

Inobu

Sorry, but I don't have access to any evidence, I can only form my opinion based on media reports written by those who have access to the investigators.

defense101

08-21-2011, 11:35 PM

I am really curious as to who would tell LE RN felt tremendous guilt. I doubt it was her family since the sister just talked to her and believed RN was "fine." Really, the only ones who would know how she felt are "witnesses" in this case and it would behoove them to push that fact to LE :rolleyes:imo

believe09

08-21-2011, 11:35 PM

What are the chances law enforcement is deliberately being misleading?

MyBelle

08-21-2011, 11:37 PM

I am really curious as to who would tell LE RN felt tremendous guilt. I doubt it was her family since the sister just talked to her and believed RN was "fine."

My guess is that RN told LE she felt tremendous guilt. We've never been given details of Maxie's injuries or how they happened but I think LE would ask questions and determine if it was an accident or not.

scorekeeper

08-21-2011, 11:38 PM

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Coronado-Mansion-Mystery-a-Suicide-Source-128124368.html

August 18, 2011
There have been a lot of media inquiries about a briefing regarding the death
investigations in Coronado.
As we mentioned before, when we have information that we are able to share we
will do so. At this time, Sheriff’s Detectives from the Homicide Division as well as
investigators from the Coronado Police Department are still waiting on the results
of all forensic tests.
When the investigations are completed, we will schedule a media briefing. I do
not have a time frame as to when that will happen.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/

BBM

Doesn't say that LE will be a "source".....says will schedule a media briefing

So unless the reporter has "inside information from the SDCS".....

It could be the PR firm as a "source" spinning their story......

Until I hear it from LE, I still hold my opinion that is was a HOMICIDE

scorekeeper

08-21-2011, 11:43 PM

My guess is that RN told LE she felt tremendous guilt. We've never been given details of Maxie's injuries or how they happened but I think LE would ask questions and determine if it was an accident or not.

Oh, gosh.....we are on thread 6

I don't want to go back and look for all the post concerning this....

But if I remember correctly, AFTER RN's demise, the investigation into Maxie's accident was opened.

I think it may have been in the press conference.........

MyBelle

08-21-2011, 11:44 PM

What are the chances law enforcement is deliberately being misleading?

I think it is possible but only slightly because they would also be misleading the media. The media can't help the government mislead the public. They would then have to disclose their sources to the defense.

All jmo because I do not have links.

Inobu

08-21-2011, 11:45 PM

BBM

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh: hint, Jose Baez:floorlaugh:

I have 2 more pages to read to catch up for the day but could not resist responding to this post...

(no offense, Inobu)

No offense taken .............

the point fall under Common, judicial and personal knowledge. No one can say how RN felt at that moment remorse, indifferent or anything else. Anything is only speculation.

MyBelle

08-21-2011, 11:48 PM

August 18, 2011
There have been a lot of media inquiries about a briefing regarding the death
investigations in Coronado.
As we mentioned before, when we have information that we are able to share we
will do so. At this time, Sheriff’s Detectives from the Homicide Division as well as
investigators from the Coronado Police Department are still waiting on the results
of all forensic tests.
When the investigations are completed, we will schedule a media briefing. I do
not have a time frame as to when that will happen.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/

BBM

Doesn't say that LE will be a "source".....says will schedule a media briefing

So unless the reporter has "inside information from the SDCS".....

It could be the PR firm as a "source" spinning their story......

Until I hear it from LE, I still hold my opinion that is was a HOMICIDE

The news article I linked quotes sources "close to the investigation." I don't believe a PR firm is close to an investigation or the detectives. JMO

believe09

08-21-2011, 11:48 PM

I think it is possible but only slightly because they would also be misleading the media. The media can't help the government mislead the public. They would have then have to disclose their sources to the defense.

All jmo because I do not have links.

I have seen LE plant information in the media before, and we know the government has done the same, lol. LE has to be careful because they dont want to burn their bridges-but as an outsider, I would have to believe there was something distinctive about the way she tied her hands and feet et al for them to make a statement of suicide. Unless they are trying to make a potential suspect comfortable.

Then again, my uncle (a well respected atty) used to say that police pursue only the most obvious. I have rarely seen that personally, but I can see how in some cases it would be true.

Inobu

08-21-2011, 11:57 PM

Sorry, but I don't have access to any evidence, I can only form my opinion based on media reports written by those who have access to the investigators.

ok, I was wanting you to elaborate on your earlier post.

It's not all that complicated, imo. She was nude and barefoot in her own house and also emotionally distraught. She couldn't sleep, gets a cord from wherever, ties it to the railing, gets on the table, ties her scarf to the cord, wraps her feet and then her hands and kicks away the table.

defense101

08-21-2011, 11:57 PM

The news article I linked quotes sources "close to the investigation." I don't believe a PR firm is close to an investigation or the detectives. JMO The article in fact says "Sources, who have knowledge of the investigation" not close to the investigation, imo that is a big difference.

sdcali

08-21-2011, 11:59 PM

And who other than someone who personally knew how she slept could leak that information?

An ex husband for example?

MyBelle

08-21-2011, 11:59 PM

I have seen LE plant information in the media before, and we know the government has done the same, lol. LE has to be careful because they dont want to burn their bridges-but as an outsider, I would have to believe there was something distinctive about the way she tied her hands and feet et al for them to make a statement of suicide. Unless they are trying to make a potential suspect comfortable.

Then again, my uncle (a well respected atty) used to say that police pursue only the most obvious. I have rarely seen that personally, but I can see how in some cases it would be true.

I don't know what misleading the media would accomplish for the cops in this case. What would making a suspect comfortable gain them? I think that if this was a homicide, the suspect would have at least untied her feet to make it look more like a suicide.

I do agree with your suggestion that there must be something distinctive about the way she was tied up.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:01 AM

The article in fact says "Sources, who have knowledge of the investigation" not close to the investigation, imo that is a big difference.

imo, one has to be close to an investigation in order to have knowledge of it as well as what detectives are thinking.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:02 AM

ok, I was wanting you to elaborate on your earlier post.

I said it was my opinion. Not sure how much more I can elaborate.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:04 AM

Oh, gosh.....we are on thread 6

I don't want to go back and look for all the post concerning this....

But if I remember correctly, AFTER RN's demise, the investigation into Maxie's accident was opened.

I think it may have been in the press conference.........

I think you are correct.

defense101

08-22-2011, 12:05 AM

imo, one has to be close to an investigation in order to have knowledge of it as well as what detectives are thinking. Not necessarily. imo This could be from anyone who is connected to the investigation ie "witnesses".

Inobu

08-22-2011, 12:07 AM

I have seen LE plant information in the media before, and we know the government has done the same, lol. LE has to be careful because they dont want to burn their bridges-but as an outsider, I would have to believe there was something distinctive about the way she tied her hands and feet et al for them to make a statement of suicide. Unless they are trying to make a potential suspect comfortable.

Then again, my uncle (a well respected atty) used to say that police pursue only the most obvious. I have rarely seen that personally, but I can see how in some cases it would be true.

Your point has merit in either direction. Comfortable in order for the assailant to slip up or make them nervous.

Let say there is a culprit, they must be waiting for the knock on the door or every car that drives by thinking that LE is on their way.

Inobu

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:11 AM

When could she have told LE? Unless you are suggesting LE talks with the dead?
I've seen no evidence LE was investigating Max's injuries prior to RN being found dead. It was believed Max's fall was a tragic accident. LE only decided to look into it after RN was found dead.

Maxie's injuries would have been investigated by police. The hospital has a duty to report any injuries involving a child and the cops determine whether it was an accident.

All, jmo.

scorekeeper

08-22-2011, 12:12 AM

Not necessarily. imo This could be from anyone who is connected to the investigation ie "witnesses".

or defense attorney...

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:13 AM

Not necessarily. imo This could be from anyone who is connected to the investigation ie "witnesses".

imo, a witness is not "close to an investigation" nor do they know what detectives are concluding.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 12:14 AM

Maxie's injuries would have been investigated by police. The hospital has a duty to report any injuries involving a child and the cops determine whether it was an accident.

All, jmo.

As far as I can tell, the hospital has a duty to report injuries if they suspect abuse, not report to police every child that comes in with injuries. If hospital was reporting every injury to the police they would be contacting police all day long.

believe09

08-22-2011, 12:16 AM

What if she left a communication of some kind which has not been released?

defense101

08-22-2011, 12:17 AM

Maxie's injuries would have been investigated by police. The hospital has a duty to report any injuries involving a child and the cops determine whether it was an accident.

All, jmo. No action was taken on MS accident until after RN's death, the second search warrant was conducted on Friday to investigate MS death.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 12:18 AM

What if she left a communication of some kind which has not been released?

I don't think so.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:18 AM

As far as I can tell, the hospital has a duty to report injuries if they suspect abuse. Otherwise they would be reporting to the police all day long.

According to some news articles the child wasn't breathing on his own when first responders arrived. Do you really believe they would draw a conclusion on their own about abuse and not notify cops? I don't.

defense101

08-22-2011, 12:19 AM

What if she left a communication of some kind which has not been released? I think if RN had left a note, the suicide determination would have been made after the autopsy.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 12:20 AM

According to some news articles the child wasn't breathing on his own when first responders arrived. Do you really believe they would draw a conclusion on their own about abuse and not notify cops? I don't.

Yes I really believe that. As far as I can tell, LE was not at all investigating the injury to Max until RN was found dead.

believe09

08-22-2011, 12:21 AM

I think if RN had left a note, the suicide determination would have been made after the autopsy.

I wasnt specific enough-a statement of regret, a note, a line. Clearly if she had written a formal note, there would have been no question. Maybe she wrote a line or two about Maxie.

defense101

08-22-2011, 12:22 AM

According to some news articles the child wasn't breathing on his own when first responders arrived. Do you really believe they would draw a conclusion on their own about abuse and not notify cops? I don't. There were two people there that would have been able to relate to LE what happened, and maybe the injuries MS suffered showed that what they said did in fact happen.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:22 AM

What if she left a communication of some kind which has not been released?

Very possible. They sealed search warrants didn't they?

I think she may have disarmed the house's security system before she went outside. That mansion had to have had some kind of security system imo.

sdcali

08-22-2011, 12:23 AM

That's news to me, considering that in quite a few recent cases police announced a suicide even before tox screen came back.

In general, LE does not announce suicides. There are more suicides on a daily basis in San Diego than you would even imagine--which I have learned from friends who are in LE. Many of the recent ones I have heard of in San Diego involve murder/suicide, so it makes the news via the murder aspect. One friend works the area of the Coronado Bridge and there are numerous attempts (and sadly, many successful) jumps that are never publicized.

It is generally not publicized, because when it is, more suicides occur. So sad to learn just how common it is.

CalElliot

08-22-2011, 12:23 AM

Remember that all opinions have to tie in with the case somehow or they are considered rumor and will be removed.
Professional Posters & Verified Locals / Insiders *MAIN PAGE* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126206)

Kimster, this is such complex territory. If a community member posts regarding a opinion-based blog or citizen journalism site posting what are in essence rumors/unattributed statements about the case, or rumors embedded in fact, how is that not a rumor?

I ask this in all sincerity.

scorekeeper

08-22-2011, 12:24 AM

:offtobed:

I'll bet you a dollar we get a determination tomorrow......

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:25 AM

There were two people there that would have been able to relate to LE what happened, and maybe the injuries MS suffered showed that what they said did in fact happen.

Sorry, but I seriously doubt the hospital didn't call cops. Their duty is to the child, not to the people trying to explain how a child ended up with massive, fatal injuries.

CalElliot

08-22-2011, 12:29 AM

:offtobed:

I'll bet you a dollar we get a determination tomorrow......

20 bucks

defense101

08-22-2011, 12:29 AM

Sorry, but I seriously doubt the hospital didn't call cops. Their duty is to the child, not to the people trying to explain how a child ended up with massive, fatal injuries. The cops were already at the house, they responded to the 911 call and they transported RN and the other female to the hospital and returned them to the house an hour later.

4Jacy

08-22-2011, 12:30 AM

I wasnt specific enough-a statement of regret, a note, a line. Clearly if she had written a formal note, there would have been no question. Maybe she wrote a line or two about Maxie.

Perhaps she did, under duress. She wouldn't have shamed Maxie's honor by committing suicide nude!

jjenny

08-22-2011, 12:35 AM

Sorry, but I seriously doubt the hospital didn't call cops. Their duty is to the child, not to the people trying to explain how a child ended up with massive, fatal injuries.

Again, the hospital has to call cops if they suspect abuse. If the hospital called cops for every injured child brought in, parents would be afraid to bring their kids to the hospital.

sdcali

08-22-2011, 12:39 AM

The most recent media stories I read referred to unnamed sources. That's customary when LE goes off the record--which, btw, is allowed.

They are also allowed to say things that aren't true for their own purposes. I am in the "I believe it was a murder camp" and believe that if it were a suicide, LE would have made an announcement by now, not set up a specific web page to direct inquiries for this incident.

IMO, LE knows it was not a suicide and are carefully laying the groundwork for an arrest. My opinion is that LE is throwing out breadcrumbs and based on what information is "leaked off the record" someone may lower their defenses and slip up.

If you were the murderer and you thought that LE thought it was a suicide...you would act differently than if you thought LE was actively investigating and pursuing a suspect. But this is just all my own opinion, of course.

mentalsolstice

08-22-2011, 12:40 AM

jjenny

08-22-2011, 12:41 AM

In general, LE does not announce suicides. There are more suicides on a daily basis in San Diego than you would even imagine--which I have learned from friends who are in LE. Many of the recent ones I have heard of in San Diego involve murder/suicide, so it makes the news via the murder aspect. One friend works the area of the Coronado Bridge and there are numerous attempts (and sadly, many successful) jumps that are never publicized.

It is generally not publicized, because when it is, more suicides occur. So sad to learn just how common it is.

Well LE set up a special website for this particular case. So I have no doubt if LE rules this a suicide they will announce it.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:47 AM

The cops were already at the house, they responded to the 911 call and they transported RN and the other female to the hospital and returned them to the house an hour later.

Great, the cops could have interviewed her then. The hospital still had a duty under Cali's Mandatory Reporting statute.

JMO.

sdcali

08-22-2011, 12:48 AM

It was run through a filter of his legal department imo.

If that is true, that's sad. Unless there was a legal reason to run it through his legal dept....

Kimster

08-22-2011, 12:48 AM

I'm still on the fence with this case. However, I'm going to ask Trish and the Mods to start a general thread about suicide. This thread alone (and I'm on the fence suicide/homicide) is indicative of the "generalizations" about suicide.

eta: each suicide is as unique as a fingerprint or DNA.

The Resource Center is a great place for that. Or if the thread is of a more personal nature, try the Jury Room in the private forums.

defense101

08-22-2011, 12:50 AM

Great, the cops could have interviewed her then. The hospital still had a duty under Cali's Mandatory Reporting statute.

JMO.
Yes, but that is neither here nor there in this case, the police responded to the house.

Kimster

08-22-2011, 12:50 AM

Kimster, this is such complex territory. If a community member posts regarding a opinion-based blog or citizen journalism site posting what are in essence rumors/unattributed statements about the case, or rumors embedded in fact, how is that not a rumor?

I ask this in all sincerity.

Blogs are reviewed by moderators on a case by case basis. Sometimes they run across these links on their own and other times members ask us to approve them. It depends on what Tricia calls "using common sense".

CalElliot

08-22-2011, 12:51 AM

I'm still on the fence with this case. However, I'm going to ask Trish and the Mods to start a general thread about suicide. This thread alone (and I'm on the fence suicide/homicide) is indicative of the "generalizations" about suicide.

eta: each suicide is as unique as a fingerprint or DNA.

I suppose we could also go with a new thread limited to homicide, but why make this discussion partisan?

CalElliot

08-22-2011, 12:52 AM

Well LE set up a special website for this particular case. So I have no doubt if LE rules this a suicide they will announce it.

Just out of curiosity, what makes the website "special"?

jjenny

08-22-2011, 12:53 AM

Just out of curiosity, what makes the website "special"?

Not every case has a website set by police to watch for announcements. That makes it pretty special, don't you think?

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:54 AM

Again, the hospital has to call cops if they suspect abuse. If the hospital called cops for every injured child brought in, parents would be afraid to bring their kids to the hospital.

It's a Mandatory law designed to protect children, not their parents or caregivers.

Why wouldn't the hospital suspect child abuse in Maxie's case? He was unconscious, had massive injuries that happened in his home while in the care of a non-parent.

If parents or anyone caring for a child are more afraid of their own hides than to obtain aid for a critically injured child, they will be prosecuted. That's a crime.

JMO

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 12:59 AM

If that is true, that's sad. Unless there was a legal reason to run it through his legal dept....

I think it has everything to do with the fact he runs a company. Don't want shareholders too nervous.

JMO

jstwondering

08-22-2011, 01:00 AM

They are also allowed to say things that aren't true for their own purposes. I am in the "I believe it was a murder camp" and believe that if it were a suicide, LE would have made an announcement by now, not set up a specific web page to direct inquiries for this incident.

IMO, LE knows it was not a suicide and are carefully laying the groundwork for an arrest. My opinion is that LE is throwing out breadcrumbs and based on what information is "leaked off the record" someone may lower their defenses and slip up.

If you were the murderer and you thought that LE thought it was a suicide...you would act differently than if you thought LE was actively investigating and pursuing a suspect. But this is just all my own opinion, of course.
IMO. Agreed. So hypothetically, if someone responsible for a murder checked herself/himself into a psychiatric hospital and was ready to get back to her/his life, they might just do that if they though LE considered the murder a suicide.

sdcali

08-22-2011, 01:02 AM

Well LE set up a special website for this particular case. So I have no doubt if LE rules this a suicide they will announce it.

I agree 100%. I'm speaking about other suicides and am only saying that when the average Joe kills himself without harm to anyone or garnering any publicity in that act, will not be published. And it happens every day.

defense101

08-22-2011, 01:04 AM

It's a Mandatory law designed to protect children, not their parents or caregivers.

Why wouldn't the hospital suspect child abuse in Maxie's case? He was unconscious, had massive injuries that happened in his home while in the care of a non-parent.

If parents or anyone caring for a child are more afraid of their own hides than to obtain aid for a critically injured child, they will be prosecuted. That's a crime.

JMO To be honest we don't know what MS's injuries were, he wasn't breathing when LE arrived, that could be as simple as a broken neck, not that that isn't a massive injury. When I was young a friend of mine fell off a motorcycle, it wasn't moving but because of a rock on the ground it broke his neck and he died instantly. If we hadn't been so far out in the country they could have probably done the same thing they did with MS and kept him alive but the end result would have been the same. imo the police who responded to the call could detect from what they were told at the house whether the injuries were consistent with what they were told by the two females and believed it to be an accident. The fact remains they did not investigate MS's accident until after the death of RN.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 01:05 AM

They are also allowed to say things that aren't true for their own purposes. I am in the "I believe it was a murder camp" and believe that if it were a suicide, LE would have made an announcement by now, not set up a specific web page to direct inquiries for this incident.

IMO, LE knows it was not a suicide and are carefully laying the groundwork for an arrest. My opinion is that LE is throwing out breadcrumbs and based on what information is "leaked off the record" someone may lower their defenses and slip up.

If you were the murderer and you thought that LE thought it was a suicide...you would act differently than if you thought LE was actively investigating and pursuing a suspect. But this is just all my own opinion, of course.

Cops are not allowed to use the media to say things that are not true. That's why it is called Freedom of the Press. No link so jmo.

IMO, the delays in this case aren't about Rebecca's death, they are about Maxie's. His death was entirely preventable imo.

sdcali

08-22-2011, 01:10 AM

IMO. Agreed. So hypothetically, if someone responsible for a murder checked herself/himself into a psychiatric hospital and was ready to get back to her/his life, they might just do that if they though LE considered the murder a suicide.

Hypothetically...BINGO.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 01:11 AM

Cops are not allowed to use the media to say things that are not true. That's why it is called Freedom of the Press. No link so jmo.

IMO, the delays in this case aren't about Rebecca's death, they are about Maxie's. His death was entirely preventable imo.

His death was preventable? And how so? It's called an accident for a reason. And frankly there is absolutely nothing to suggest the delays in the case of RN have anything at all to do with Max's death. Police seem to believe it was an accident, nothing more.

defense101

08-22-2011, 01:13 AM

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 01:14 AM

To be honest we don't know what MS's injuries were, he wasn't breathing when LE arrived, that could be as simple as a broken neck, not that that isn't a massive injury. When I was young a friend of mine fell off a motorcycle, it wasn't moving but because of a rock on the ground it broke his neck and he died instantly. If we hadn't been so far out in the country they could have probably done the same thing they did with MS and kept him alive but the end result would have been the same. imo the police who responded to the call could detect from what they were told at the house whether the injuries were consistent with what they were told by the two females and believed it to be an accident. The fact remains they did not investigate MS's accident until after the death of RN.

Mandatory reporting is law in California. To determine if it was an accident required police to at least ask questions. Has it occurred to you that the reason they decided to investigate Maxie's accident is because they didn't believe RN's version of events? If I was his parent, I sure wouldn't just accept that it was an accident. RN wasn't his parent and kids don't routinesly suffer massive, fatal injuries in their own homes.

JMO

sdcali

08-22-2011, 01:16 AM

Cops are not allowed to use the media to say things that are not true. That's why it is called Freedom of the Press. No link so jmo.

IMO, the delays in this case aren't about Rebecca's death, they are about Maxie's. His death was entirely preventable imo.

"off the record" I think they can.

Maxie's death may have been preventable, but IMO, there was not criminal basis for an investigation. I believe that they are looking at Maxie's death in connection with RN's death and possible motive.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 01:17 AM

His death was preventable? And how so? It's called an accident for a reason. And frankly there is absolutely nothing to suggest the delays in the case of RN have anything at all to do with Max's death. Police seem to believe it was an accident, nothing more.

Where have police said Maxie's death was an accident and nothing more? Link please. Thanks.

sdcali

08-22-2011, 01:17 AM

Okay folks...gotta hit the hay...5 a.m. comes too soon as it is. G'night!

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 01:18 AM

"off the record" I think they can.

Maxie's death may have been preventable, but IMO, there was not criminal basis for an investigation. I believe that they are looking at Maxie's death in connection with RN's death and possible motive.

I think they can't and we'll have to agree to disagree.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 01:23 AM

Where have police said Maxie's death was an accident and nothing more? Link please. Thanks.
"Police have said Zahau's death could be either homicide or suicide, while Max Shacknai's death appears to be a tragic accident."
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15152188/police-reports-no-recent-domestic-violence-calls-to-coronado-mansion?clienttype=printable

jjenny

08-22-2011, 01:25 AM

Mandatory reporting is law in California. To determine if it was an accident required police to at least ask questions. Has it occurred to you that the reason they decided to investigate Maxie's accident is because they didn't believe RN's version of events? If I was his parent, I sure wouldn't just accept that it was an accident. RN wasn't his parent and kids don't routinesly suffer massive, fatal injuries in their own homes.

JMO

No, it hasn't occurred to me the reason they decided to investigate Max's accident is because they didn't believe RN's version of events, considering LE has decided to investigate Max's accident because of RN's suspicious death.

defense101

08-22-2011, 01:28 AM

Mandatory reporting is law in California. To determine if it was an accident required police to at least ask questions. Has it occurred to you that the reason they decided to investigate Maxie's accident is because they didn't believe RN's version of events? If I was his parent, I sure wouldn't just accept that it was an accident. RN wasn't his parent and kids don't routinesly suffer massive, fatal injuries in their own homes.

JMO
No, I don't believe for a minute that they investigated his death because they didn't believe RN's version. They investigated it because of RN's death the second search warrant was issued because of her death. period. imo of course

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 01:30 AM

"Police have said Zahau's death could be either homicide or suicide, while Max Shacknai's death appears to be a tragic accident."
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15152188/police-reports-no-recent-domestic-violence-calls-to-coronado-mansion?clienttype=printable

That's not a direct quote from LE. The same article states:

The cause of death in both incidents has not been released, pending toxicology and forensic testing.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 01:34 AM

That's not a direct quote from LE. The same article states:

The cause of death in both incidents has not been released, pending toxicology and forensic testing.

At least the information is attributed to LE and not to "sources with the knowledge of the investigation." But you seem to find "sources with the knowledge of the investigation" quite believable for whatever reason.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 01:39 AM

No, it hasn't occurred to me the reason they decided to investigate Max's accident is because they didn't believe RN's version of events, considering LE has decided to investigate Max's accident because of RN's suspicious death.

Maxie died AFTER RN. Why would they decide something they concluded was an accident would be any different just because the person who was responsible for his care died? To me, that doesn't make any sense at all unless they believed she was in some way responsible for Maxie's death.

Inobu

08-22-2011, 01:42 AM

Cops are not allowed to use the media to say things that are not true. That's why it is called Freedom of the Press. No link so jmo.

IMO, the delays in this case aren't about Rebecca's death, they are about Maxie's. His death was entirely preventable imo.

The delays has nothing to do with MS and all to do with the sealed evidence, autopsy and pending toxicology results for RN death.

It was stated early on that the deaths are not related. The only way it can be related if there is a confession by an assailant or one/two of the three "witnesses"

Inobu

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 01:48 AM

The delays has nothing to do with MS and all to do with the sealed evidence, autopsy and pending toxicology results for RN death.

It was stated early on that the deaths are not related. The only way it can be related if there is a confession by an assailant or one/two of the three "witnesses"

Inobu

Sealed evidence isn't secret to investigators. There is a way the deaths can be related....as the news story quoted sources staing that RN felt responsible for Maxie's injuries. I think it is entirely possible that she was responsible. If she was, Maxie's parents are certainly entitled to the truth imo.

defense101

08-22-2011, 01:49 AM

jjenny

08-22-2011, 01:49 AM

Maxie died AFTER RN. Why would they decide something they concluded was an accident would be any different just because the person who was responsible for his care died? To me, that doesn't make any sense at all unless they believed she was in some way responsible for Maxie's death.

It was publicly stated by police they only gave Max's death a second look because of RN's suspicious death. So how is it that it doesn't make sense to you?

"Corbin said that the police continue to approach the boy's July 11 fall as an accident, but are taking another look because of Zahau's death.

“It's something that needs to be investigated a bit further,” she said."
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/autopsy-to-be-conducted-on-jonah-shacknais-son

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 01:53 AM

I haven't seen the search warrant, I just know that they did search the house with a second search warrant on Friday. We don;t know what happened in the house regarding MS, so assigning blame to a victim here imo is inappropriate.

I am only forming an opinion based on the media stories and also the police information that places RN as the only adult present when Maxie's injuries were incurred. If that is assigning blame, then that is what they've done.

I also think it is inappropriate to dismiss Maxie's death as "just" an accident. He was a small child who deserves justice every bit as much as RN.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 01:54 AM

Sealed evidence isn't secret to investigators. There is a way the deaths can be related....as the news story quoted sources staing that RN felt responsible for Maxie's injuries. I think it is entirely possible that she was responsible. If she was, Maxie's parents are certainly entitled to the truth imo.

Well that is just false since the "sources close to the investigation" (whoever they are) claimed RN felt "tremendous guilt" and not that she felt "responsible."

jjenny

08-22-2011, 01:56 AM

I am only forming an opinion based on the media stories and also the police information that places RN as the only adult present when Maxie's injuries were incurred. If that is assigning blame, then that is what they've done.

I also think it is inappropriate to dismiss Maxie's death as "just" an accident. He was a small child who deserves justice every bit as much as RN.

A tragic accident is called a tragic accident for a reason. There is no "justice" for a tragic accident. Police has never once stated they believe Max's death was anything but a tragic accident, while RN's death could be either a murder or a suicide.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:00 AM

It was publicly stated by police they only gave Max's death a second look because of RN's suspicious death. So how is it that it doesn't make sense to you?

"Corbin said that the police continue to approach the boy's July 11 fall as an accident, but are taking another look because of Zahau's death.

“It's something that needs to be investigated a bit further,” she said."
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/autopsy-to-be-conducted-on-jonah-shacknais-son

Again, I haven't seen police state that they only gave Max's death a second look because of RN's "suspicious" death. imo, they took a second look because people do kill themselves out of guilt or to avoid prosecution.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 02:01 AM

Again, I haven't seen police state that they only gave Max's death a second look because of RN's "suspicious" death. imo, they took a second look because people do kill themselves out of guilt or to avoid prosecution.

That's why I provided a link with police spokes person stating that they are giving his death a second look because of RN's death. There is zero evidence anyone was going to prosecute her for anything since police was not considering the child's death as anything but an accident.

defense101

08-22-2011, 02:02 AM

I am only forming an opinion based on the media stories and also the police information that places RN as the only adult present when Maxie's injuries were incurred. If that is assigning blame, then that is what they've done.

I also think it is inappropriate to dismiss Maxie's death as "just" an accident. He was a small child who deserves justice every bit as much as RN. Firstly RN wasn't the only person there, there was another female there as well. I never stated MS's accident the way you wrote, but in the end it was an accident and in accidents justice isn't looked for, and if it was then you could look to those who wanted justice ie "witnesses" imo

Inobu

08-22-2011, 02:05 AM

I am only forming an opinion based on the media stories and also the police information that places RN as the only adult present when Maxie's injuries were incurred. If that is assigning blame, then that is what they've done.

I also think it is inappropriate to dismiss Maxie's death as "just" an accident. He was a small child who deserves justice every bit as much as RN.

I think that is where peoples perceptions of the event is skewed. MS death was an accident and he's not necessarily a victim. RN death's may be a retaliatory action making her a victim where as MS death was an accident.

If RN was shopping and a sitter was home instead, would be having this discussion. The question is would the sitter be dead instead?

This is why LE stated the deaths are not related until someone makes it so.

Inobu

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:05 AM

A tragic accident is called a tragic accident for a reason. There is no "justice" for a tragic accident. Police has never once stated they believe Max's death was anything but a tragic accident, while RN's death could be either a murder or a suicide.

That's just your opinion.

I haven't seen LE or ME rule Maxie's death a tragic accident. I have seen the reports they decided to look into his death and are investigating. You are stating facts that haven't even been released.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:12 AM

I think that is where peoples perceptions of the event is skewed. MS death was an accident and he's not necessarily a victim. RN death's may be a retaliatory action making her a victim where as MS death was an accident.

If RN was shopping and a sitter was home instead, would be having this discussion. The question is would the sitter be dead instead?

This is why LE stated the deaths are not related until someone makes it so.

Inobu

I have not seen any LE or ME recently state that MS's death was an accident so how about a link? Thanks.

I can only go by what LE has released: RN was the only adult home at the time his injuries took place and LE decided to investigate Maxie's incident. I also know from my own experience that LE does not re-investigate an accident unless they have reason to believe it wasn't an accident.

JMO

Salem

08-22-2011, 02:12 AM

Kimster, this is such complex territory. If a community member posts regarding a opinion-based blog or citizen journalism site posting what are in essence rumors/unattributed statements about the case, or rumors embedded in fact, how is that not a rumor?

I ask this in all sincerity.

Links to media are allowed, unless for some reason a particular site has been blocked by WS. Some links go to MSM, some to other lesser known media. All media should be read with a grain of salt. Articles that are backed up by an allowed link may be discussed.

If you have additional questions, please let one of the mods know.

Salem

Inobu

08-22-2011, 02:14 AM

That's just your opinion.

I haven't seen LE or ME rule Maxie's death a tragic accident. I have seen the reports they decided to look into his death and are investigating. You are stating facts that haven't even been released.

I don't think it is an opinion. Tragic accidents happen a lot. There was a story where a mom left the house got into the SUV and backed over her child. No one knew the child went behind the car. Tragic. I personally know someone that did the same thing. There is nothing you can do or say it was an accident.

Inobu

jjenny

08-22-2011, 02:15 AM

That's just your opinion.

I haven't seen LE or ME rule Maxie's death a tragic accident. I have seen the reports they decided to look into his death and are investigating. You are stating facts that haven't even been released.

I've provided a link already with a quote from a police spokes person stating they are approaching his death as an accident. I don't know why that is not satisfactory to you.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:16 AM

Firstly RN wasn't the only person there, there was another female there as well. I never stated MS's accident the way you wrote, but in the end it was an accident and in accidents justice isn't looked for, and if it was then you could look to those who wanted justice ie "witnesses" imo

Was the other female present an adult? I'm sorry but I don't automatically believe any event that results in lethal injuries to a child is an accident and I seriously, seriously doubt cops would have decided to take a relook without good reason to do so.

JMO

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:19 AM

I've provided a link already with a quote from a police spokes person stating they are approaching his death as an accident. I don't know why that is not satisfactory to you. Do you know any information the rest of us don't?

I was hoping for a more recent link. Just because a cop says they are approaching it as an accident doesn't mean they have concluded it was.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 02:21 AM

I was hoping for a more recent link. Just because a cop says they are approaching it as an accident doesn't mean they have concluded it was.

Well we can probably thank a PR firm for not having many articles recently, can't we?

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:26 AM

I don't think it is an opinion. Tragic accidents happen a lot. There was a story where a mom left the house got into the SUV and backed over her child. No one knew the child went behind the car. Tragic. I personally know someone that did the same thing. There is nothing you can do or say it was an accident.

Inobu

Accidents are still investigated and cops haven't released their findings about Maxie. Max died inside the house so I'm not seeing the comparison. I know of many cases where child care providers have been prosecuted for the deaths of children in their care. I know of many cases where parents were not prosecuted even though the accident was their fault. Losing the child is considered punishment enough in many cases and I'm okay with that. But Max was not RN's child and he and his parents also deserve justice imo.

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:27 AM

Well we can probably thank a PR firm for not having many articles recently, can't we?

PR firms don't control the release of info from cops and they sure don't control the media, imo.

Inobu

08-22-2011, 02:28 AM

Was the other female present an adult? I'm sorry but I don't automatically believe any event that results in lethal injuries to a child is an accident and I seriously, seriously doubt cops would have decided to take a relook without good reason to do so.

JMO

You touch on a point that I can attest to. I recalled getting yelled at for playing around the stairs as a child. My mom told me that "you can kill or paralyze yourself and then what are you going to do". She even said that she might take here time tending to me because she warned me.

With stairs children see a slicky slide while adults see it as a potential death trap.

Inobu

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:32 AM

You touch on a point that I can attest to. I recalled getting yelled at for playing around the stairs as a child. My mom told me that "you can kill or paralyze yourself and then what are you going to do". She even said that she might take here time tending to me because she warned me.

With stairs children see a slicky slide while adults see it as a potential death trap.

Inobu

It IS a potential death trap. A fall involving stairs is what killed Max. That's why children require supervision. Lack of supervision is considered negligence.

JMO

jjenny

08-22-2011, 02:33 AM

Accidents are still investigated and cops haven't released their findings about Maxie. Max died inside the house so I'm not seeing the comparison. I know of many cases where child care providers have been prosecuted for the deaths of children in their care. I know of many cases where parents were not prosecuted even though the accident was their fault. Losing the child is considered punishment enough in many cases and I'm okay with that. But Max was not RN's child and he and his parents also deserve justice imo.

I am really curious as to how do you think his parents could have possibly gotten justice if police has viewed his death nothing but a tragic accident?

defense101

08-22-2011, 02:34 AM

I have not seen any LE or ME recently state that MS's death was an accident so how about a link? Thanks.

I can only go by what LE has released: RN was the only adult home at the time his injuries took place and LE decided to investigate Maxie's incident. I also know from my own experience that LE does not re-investigate an accident unless they have reason to believe it wasn't an accident.

JMOcoronado police say at this link

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend

on page 5 first video, there is and interview with the coronado police chief in which he said that then they didn't believe it was anything but an accident and that they now don't believe it was anything but an accident

jjenny

08-22-2011, 02:35 AM

It IS a potential death trap. A fall involving stairs is what killed Max. That's why children require supervision. Lack of supervision is considered negligence.

JMO

There are many many people who die or severley injured in all kind of accidents. I assure you in plenty of these cases there is no justice to be gotten, <modsnip>? Again, how would someone get justice for an accident?

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:36 AM

I am really curious as to how do you think his parents could have possibly gotten justice if police has viewed his death nothing but a tragic accident?

I don't believe police have concluded Max's death was a tragic accident.

Inobu

08-22-2011, 02:42 AM

It IS a potential death trap. A fall involving stairs is what killed Max. That's why children require supervision. Lack of supervision is considered negligence.

JMO

As we have this conversation I reflect back. My mom and dad made my little sister walk down the stairs one step at a time and she had to hold the rail. I was older and remember they made a big deal out of it.

I forgot all about that.

Stair safety starts with the parents as I said I can attest to it.

Getting late for me................

Inobu

Salem

08-22-2011, 02:46 AM

STOP the bickering NOW or I'll lock the thread.

Salem

MyBelle

08-22-2011, 02:47 AM

As we have this conversation I reflect back. My mom and dad made my little sister walk down the stairs one step at a time and she had to hold the rail. I was older and remember they made a big deal out of it.

I forgot all about that.

Stair safety starts with the parents as I said I can attest to it.

Getting late for me................

Inobu

Stairs as a hazard without question, imo.

Good night...

CalElliot

08-22-2011, 03:22 AM

Perhaps there will be new LE information tomorrow. Meanwhile, below an interesting comment coming from Coronado Patch reader (see comments). Putting myself in the Zahau family's shoes, and going with RZ's sister's POV that RZ did not commit suicide, how would I begin to deal with this situation? How would I possibly be able to represent RZ in lawsuit against, say, any of the POI should they turn out to be charged?

If LE says it's suicide, can the family challenge that? Will a high-profile lawyer step up to take on RZ cause on contingency basis?

"Maybe it is time for us to reach out to Rebecca's family to help them navigate through all this BS and get to the bottom of things?"

http://coronado.patch.com/articles/spreckels-mystery-tv-report-says-detectives-reasonably-confident-zahau-killed-herself

dasqm

08-22-2011, 06:12 AM

http://www.examiner.com/us-headlines-in-national/jonah-shacknai-s-friends-defend-millionaire-who-s-silent-about-mansion-deaths

Perhaps I read this wrong, but isn't KJ the ex-wife of JS? This article does not read that way to me. Just being curious .. SO many questions and interpretations .. JMO

I concur with you, KJ was the 1st wife of JS. Prior to marriage, JS & KJ were employed at competitive pharmaceutical companies. On their Honeymoon JS suggested to DS/DR that perhaps their marriage had been a mistake. JS & KJ have 2 teenagers...a boy and a girl. I do believe KJ stated that despite a long and acrimonious divorce JS was a good Father. As I recall, it was JS's 2nd wife DS/DR who has the PSY D. Sounds like some of the familial info got scrambled up here.

dasqm

08-22-2011, 07:25 AM

Insightful, comprehensive, informative, succinct, synopsis. Great reference sheet. Two facts I wasn't cognizant of are the following:

-Fri July 15 GS posts on FB "Maxie RIP"
-Wed Aug 17 FB page: " Gabby Shacknai Photograph" posted picture of MS
-? date/whom FB page: "The Shacknai Shack ;)"(? JS Scottsdale home?)
Did she really call RN "evil" - if so, did she want RN gone? Why did she fly home so soon rather than staying at bedside?

IMO, often teenagers assume the position of a parent rather than forming their own opinions. Based on that sentiment, did you know whether GS's mother KJ harbored ill will/disgust toward RN?
This is also the first that I've learned that GS posted a picture of MS on MS

I'd be interested in further elaboration of the above 2 comments for a myriad of reasons. In part: If GS considered RN "evil" I can't help but conjecture from whence her opinion originated. Regardless, it must have been sheer misery for RN & GS to be in each other's company. IMO, negative tension/stressors are perceptible to all family members regardless how young a sibling/child may be. If GS made that comment about RN, I can't imagine the family unit was healthy & well adjusted but instead I would expect dysfunction involving all the estranged and current members. I don't perceive how GS feeling RN was evil could be isolated. IMO, other family members would be privy to GS's feelings about RN. In which case, why would JS leave them alone together without other adult supervision? Not a good idea, IMO.
There is speculation that GS may have been present during the MS's accidental fall. If that's the case, it would make sense that she would be overwhelmed by the experience & perfectly understandable that she would try to memoralize MS in her own teenage way (i.e.) fb.

dasqm

08-22-2011, 08:10 AM

Wasn't the child scheduled for an MRI for that morning? If she supposedly killed herself because she felt so guilty, the child was not even dead yet.

IMO, I believe it was undeniably evident to all family members from the moment emergency personnel made their medical assessment of MS as a result of his fall, if not sooner, that MS was brain dead. IMO, the medical diagnosis was equivalent to death; perhaps, even more painful to process than death because JS & DS knew full well it was their call to pull MS's life support. I believe ultimately JS & DS/DR understood immediately they would be responsible for determining how much longer MS lived based on the medical decisions they made on behalf of MS from that point forward. Because JS & DS/DR decided to have MS donate his organs, I believe they had no other option but to keep MS alive until his organs were removed and all respective compatible recipients were contacted. What a terrible burden for parents. I imagine JS & DS/DR were devastated emotionally, physically & psychologically yet despite their desperate state of being it was necessary for them to proceed with the task of MS's final arrangements immediately. IMO, the reason MS was kept alive beyond the date of his balcony fall was because of the decision that JS & DS made to donate MS's organs. Therefore, when I read comments that MS died after RN...well, I think for all intents and purposes the fall really killed MS right then and there. After that point, JS & DS were consumed with making MS's final arrangements. So, I think JS & DS clearly knew MS's fate was death before the passing of RN. IMO, MS died immediately from the fall from the balcony...his actual date of death was almost symbolic in my mind.

jjenny

08-22-2011, 09:43 AM

There is no basis whatsoever to the statement that GS considered RN "evil." There was an on-line donation form and whoever donated has called herself an "evil stepmonster". So first of all it was clearly stated as a joke. And second of all it was coming from the person who donated the money and not from GS.

justice be served

08-22-2011, 09:43 AM

IMO, I believe it was undeniably evident to all family members from the moment emergency personnel made their medical assessment of MS as a result of his fall, if not sooner, that MS was brain dead. IMO, the medical diagnosis was equivalent to death; perhaps, even more painful to process than death because JS & DS knew full well it was their call to pull MS's life support. I believe ultimately JS & DS/DR understood immediately they would be responsible for determining how much longer MS lived based on the medical decisions they made on behalf of MS from that point forward. Because JS & DS/DR decided to have MS donate his organs, I believe they had no other option but to keep MS alive until his organs were removed and all respective compatible recipients were contacted. What a terrible burden for parents. I imagine JS & DS/DR were devastated emotionally, physically & psychologically yet despite their desperate state of being it was necessary for them to proceed with the task of MS's final arrangements immediately. IMO, the reason MS was kept alive beyond the date of his balcony fall was because of the decision that JS & DS made to donate MS's organs. Therefore, when I read comments that MS died after RN...well, I think for all intents and purposes the fall really killed MS right then and there. After that point, JS & DS were consumed with making MS's final arrangements. So, I think JS & DS clearly knew MS's fate was death before the passing of RN. IMO, MS died immediately from the fall from the balcony...his actual date of death was almost symbolic in my mind.

I so agree with your contention on the fact Max was for all intents and purposes gone from the beginning of the accident. The timeline then concurs with the two most cited primary scenarios for RN’s death: 1) she felt great remorse that Max died under her care and she committed suicide or 2) others felt RN was responsible for Max’s death and she was murdered. I can see it both ways from a timeline perspective but still cannot fathom her suicide in such a complex way.
Other posters appear to be postulating that Max’s death was not an accident and that he deserves justice. I also cannot fathom that Max’s death could have been intentional in any way shape or form nor have I seen evidence from LE that contention is being pursued. Maybe I missed it along the way, if so. If murder is the contention, I don’t buy it. IMO if his death was due to the parties’ lack of oversight, that would be possible but it doesn’t make it murder.

Quester

08-22-2011, 10:27 AM

Oh look - here's an ABC "suicide" theory article posted late last evening:

8/21? PD: 'Mansion mystery' in Coronado may have been suicide

The bizarre death investigation at a Coronado, Calif. mansion may be getting a little clearer.

A police detective says suicide is looking more likely ...

... guilt may have led her to do it.

Police say it's unusual for a woman to commit suicide, especially nude and out in the open.

But they say [RN] often slept nude and her feet were not tied. [Yep - that's exactly how it is written!]

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/national/pd%3A-%27mansion-mystery%27-in-coronado-may-have-been-suicide