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Salem
09-01-2011, 11:37 PM
Let's start a new thread before the big press conference tomorrow.

Please continue here.

Here is a link to the rules and tips on dealing with your fellow posters. Please take a moment to look the rules over. We have a lot of newbies here.

The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

ALSO - please remember, we do NOT sleuth minors, we do NOT post identifying information about minors, we do NOT name minors.

If a minor is a victim or has been publically named by LE as a perp, then their name may be used. In this particular case, the ONLY minor that may be identified by name is Max, because he was a victim. ALL other minors are OFF THE TABLE.

This is a strict rule and your cooperation is appreciated.

Thanks,

Salem

ETA: Further explanation on minor names. Even when quoting from MSM or other sources, if the minor is not the victim or the perp, we change the name to initials. We do NOT quote the name of the minor. This is to protect the minor. Please keep that in mind. Try to put yourself in the shoes of the parent of that minor. What would you think if your child's name was splattered all over the web.

Thanks Guys!


Thread 6

Thread 7

Money Girl
09-01-2011, 11:41 PM
Maybe one of the tabloids will run a voice analysis of the presenters to determine if they are lying!

elementry
09-02-2011, 12:32 AM
<<Yesterday, 05:30 PM

Carioca
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalElliot

<My understanding was he's in the back row, third from the right.

I thought front right due to the glasses but that was totally a guess on my part. Sorry about that. Back row, third from right? hmmm... interesting... What is the saying? Ah yes. A picture is worth a thousand words.
__________________>>


http://i55.tinypic.com/69hzs0.png

Kind of morbidly eery family portrait, this, all things considered.

Wonder who they'll be pointing at tomorrow......

I fear, Rebecca very well may be taking the fall for all of this. They likely will officially absolve her of culpability for MS's death, but the notion may linger that to go and kill herself maybe there was some blame there, real or perceived. Anybody ever discover where Jonah was while his son was having his fatal fall? He had the friendly executive pact to spend more time with the kids but I can't help but wonder how involved in the day to day he actually was......

Paladine
09-02-2011, 12:56 AM
Maybe one of the tabloids will run a voice analysis of the presenters to determine if they are lying!

Oh! Or that show "Psychic Detectives", if you've seen it. I find it incredible. Some episodes are mindblowing...maybe the family could request they help?

http://www.tv.com/psychic-detectives/show/31191/summary.html

Don't know if the show still is in production but it's the psychic-detectives the family needs, imo...something, anything.

Like this one, she's incredible, from what I've seen.....I know, some will disagree, but I believe in some...not all...but some. And this is one, she works with police depts but I think she'll only come onboard if requested by police...? Not sure, though. Gotta read the link myself; on an old show I watched, she was featured, many times. I think the family usually asks the detectives to use the help...and in the shows that I've seen, the police accepted or intiated the request for help.

http://noreenrenier.com/

In 1981, when Psychic Investigator Noreen Renier first lectured at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia, her work with police detectives was considered controversial. Now, she is a highly respected psychic detective who has worked on over 600 unsolved cases with city, county, and state Law Enforcement Agencies in 38 states and 6 foreign countries. She has a professional understanding of both the police and the paranormal.

Noreen never could have known this stuff beforehand and she was so accurate it was chilling."
— R. Krolak (Retired Lt. Commander)

...She helped to locate a plane containing the body of a relative of an FBI agent."
— Robert Ressler (Ex-FBI)


Noreen Renier has often stated a Psychic Detective should be called into an investigation as a last resort, when traditional methods have been exhausted. It's possible that Psychic Investigator Noreen Renier has a key for re-opening your dead-end cases.

ETA: A facebook page...not 100% sure it's really hers, though, looks real to me...so caution here>>>> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Noreen-Renier-Psychic-Detective/146270912073827?sk=wall

Night all, I'm outta here, be well.

Rhyme & Reason
09-02-2011, 01:49 AM
Looks like it's leaked. Hmmm...

http://mommysdirtylittlesecret.com/2011/09/02/millionaire-jonah-shacknais-girlfriend-rebecca-zahaus-death-ruled-suicide/#.TmBtYqE0BpY.twitter

ETA: Not MSM but they say the info comes from RZ's sister & that she's not convinced of their findings.

jjenny
09-02-2011, 01:54 AM
New article that has a lot of new info. According to family's lawyer RN was in the shower when the child had his accident. The two of child's siblings were in the home. The child was "planking." (which was one of our theories). It's so upsetting people are dying over this stupid human trick. Some sort of note was found, ambiguous in meaning, and the family does not believe it's in RN's handwriting. RN never displayed suicidal tendencies.

"Bremner, the attorney, said she and the family met with investigators for more than three hours this week and that the family was distraught over the conclusion. Bremner said there is no precedent for a woman committing suicde in the manner in which San Diego authorities contend."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-09-02/Coronado-mansion-death-ruled-suicide-family-objects/50233234/1

Rhyme & Reason
09-02-2011, 02:00 AM
New article that has a lot of new info. According to family's lawyer RN was in the shower when the child had his accident. The two of child's siblings were in the home. The child was "planking." Some sort of note was found, ambiguous in meaning, and the family does not believe it's in RN's handwriting. RN never displayed suicidal tendencies.

"Bremner, the attorney, said she and the family met with investigators for more than three hours this week and that the family was distraught over the conclusion. Bremner said there is no precedent for a woman committing suicde in the manner in which San Diego authorities contend."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-09-02/Coronado-mansion-death-ruled-suicide-family-objects/50233234/1

Interesting. The article I posted above says no note was found. Well, I think the best thing is to hear it from the investigators tomorrow.

Pach
09-02-2011, 02:06 AM
its really tough when the next of kin are out of state. if they were california residents they could really camp out on the lawn and protest the sheriff's findings daily and it will be very bad PR for the Sheriff and the millionaire's company.

unless the evidence the sheriff presents is very very convincing and unless they have interviewed Rebecca's friends and relatives as well, the least the sheriff can do is to declare her death inconclusive. why declare it suicide or homicide if they are not sure ? unless they want it to be done with and be expedient, in which case, that would be a miscarriage of justice...

the evidence presented tommorow better be really convincing or else ..........

mrsu
09-02-2011, 02:12 AM
Wow! I thought for sure the notion of planking was ridiculous...I know some here suggested it. Guess I didn't realize it was that much of a craze. Wow, how tragic.

I'm not sure what I believe happened to Rebecca. On the one hand, I realize her sister doesn't think she was suicidal, but most suicidal people don't admit they are going to commit suicide. On the other hand, the note and nudity seem suspicious. Surely they could determine positively whether it was her handwriting or not? Still confused over who the suspects would be? My only logical thought would be Adam. Of course I'm assuming that Jonah & Dina's alibis worked out and they were at the hospital the entire time. It still seems odd to me that Adam came into town after Max's fall, but then didn't stick around for his funeral. Seems really weird to me. I'm still stumped.

Rhyme & Reason
09-02-2011, 02:14 AM
Carioca,

Link to WS lingo thread. Very helpful!

NEW Websleuths Lingo - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Rhyme & Reason
09-02-2011, 02:22 AM
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Detectives-to-Update-Coronado-Mansion-Mystery--128888933.html

Carpe Pacem
09-02-2011, 02:23 AM
The suicide verdict was all over San Diego news this evening.

Whether murder or suicide, this was an act of hatred. I cannot see the victim, no matter how distraught and suicidal, taking her life in this manner without a thought of how it would affect others.

Dr. Know?
09-02-2011, 03:06 AM
I'm puzzled by Rebecca's death being ruled a suicide. I truley hope they can prove it if that's their decision. Extremely skeptical about this.

I need some facts on how they determined her death. Hopefully, they'll address it tomorrow.

Dang..

mikeysmommom
09-02-2011, 04:16 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/01/investigation-results-into-death-at-ceos-calif-mansion-to-be-released-friday/?test=latestnews

LaLaw2000
09-02-2011, 06:02 AM
Well.

I have thought this was a murder from the very beginning and still think so. LE knows that so many do not accept this suicide determination, so they have decided to have a powerpoint presentation and a 'panel'. I am with Rebecca's sister and simply do not believe it. I do not expect to ever know the truth now.

I respect everyone elses point of view, but I doubt LE will be able to convince me of suicide. I am saying this with my late husband having been retired LE and having spent 10 years in it myself.

MOO

GB Rebecc'a sister, her parents, and other family & friends!

Bonepile
09-02-2011, 06:03 AM
I wonder if the San Diego Sheriff's Department is holding this briefing to convince the media and the public that it was suicide or to convince themselves??

BrownRice
09-02-2011, 06:24 AM
I'm not surprised with the suicide finding - although I find the manner in which she committed suicide peculiar. I wonder if a call was made between JS and RZ after she spoke to her family. Maybe he was angry or distraught - perhaps their was a glimmer of hope (albeit small) early on with Max, but as the day/night progressed, he was told Max would not survive. As the result of that call, RZ became despondent.

curiousjo
09-02-2011, 07:51 AM
IF RN was in the shower when this happened, then I don't see anything she could have done to prevent this accident. That means that MS was with 1-2 teenagers @GS and maybe her brother or RN sister. IF GS was hurt during the accident, it makes one wonder if she was using her cell or flip cam to videotape/take photos of MS planking. He fell, and she tried to break the fall or he it happened so fast that he fell and hit her, then hit head on ground. If true, that may explain why GS was shipped off so quickly. I just don't see why RN would committ suicide if she was taking a shower when it happened. According to her sister, RN was making plans for the next day. I am sure she would have wanted to go to the hospital and see JS /MS. Even if JS called and said MS took turn for worse and its over between us,...I would expect that she would have tried to talk to JS in person. If that discussion failed, then may suicide, but not that night. Well, see... maybe there is some strong evidence. Or - they got it wrong and its AS, JS or hired hit by possibly DS family member (someone on W.S. suggested mafia connections.. true?) It just seems like a man was involved in committing the crime. Still wonder about AS story. His father and brother are living the life, yet he works on a tugboat.....IMO. Just want the truth for Rebecca!!!!!!! Maybe now, her family and friends will speak.

colette
09-02-2011, 07:55 AM
Zahau-Loehner said investigators told her they found no suicide note. They did share text messages on her phone from months earlier about "issues" between her and Shacknai's children.

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/09/01/3115305/sister-investigators-rule-mansion.html#ixzz1WnNE3BrR

askfornina
09-02-2011, 08:02 AM
grrr. i am trying to reserve judgment until i hear all the evidence...but...:banghead:

LaLaw2000
09-02-2011, 08:23 AM
I just saw Judge Jeanine (sp.?) on Fox and she doesn't buy the suicide either. At least I am in what I consider to be good company.

MOO

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 08:35 AM
I just saw Judge Jeanine (sp.?) on Fox and she doesn't buy the suicide either. At least I am in what I consider to be good company.

MOO

Good morning.

I think those who are convinced this was a murder aren't going to have their minds changed by the PC.

I do understand perfectly why Rebecca's family doesn't want to believe she took her own life. That is very understandable to me.

While I do believe she did take her own life... I certainly respect everyone else's opinions that believes otherwise.

I think what causes suspicion is not so much that she committed suicide but the way she chose to do it.

I sure would like to know more about the 'issues' she was to have said she was having with JSs children.

IMO

Matty29
09-02-2011, 08:36 AM
I wonder if the San Diego Sheriff's Department is holding this briefing to convince the media and the public that it was suicide or to convince themselves??

More PR, because no one believes she committed suicide, so the briefing is a way to get the media and the public to drink the Kool-aid.

I will never be convinced she killed herself, if Maxie and his sister/brother (?) were planking it was an ACCIDENT, it was NOT RN's fault and she knew that, who didn't accept that was someone else.

I shower and leave my 1 yr old with my 15 yr old all the time. God forbid, but accidents happen. I found out my 15 was planking by stalking his FB the other day. I didn't even know he had ever heard of it. 50 pictures of him and his friends planking at the beach, I went nuts on him and told him how dangerous it was. He was planking laying on things that were flat, but still, I told him he cannot do it anymore, even laying down.

RIP Rebecca, so much for coming to America for a better life.

BrownRice
09-02-2011, 08:42 AM
Problem with this case, in my opinion, is that the only 2 options (suicide or murder) are both so outlandish and unlikely. To me, the murder scenario is harder to buy. If it was a week or so later than Max's accident/death, I'd be able to consider it. But, I just don't find it plausible that either parent left their dying child's bedside to do it. And I think they would be consumed by grief and despair at that time too to be angry about lack of supervision (if that was the case). Blaming another person would come later. Just my thoughts.

And if it's true RZ was in the shower at the time, how could it possibly be her fault. A 6 year old doesn't need 24 hr supervision (hovering over him). If they did, no parent in the world would be able to take a shower! Or sleep. I really can't imagine JS would think she was responsible.

BrownRice
09-02-2011, 08:45 AM
IF RN was in the shower when this happened, then I don't see anything she could have done to prevent this accident. That means that MS was with 1-2 teenagers @GS and maybe her brother or RN sister. ...............I just don't see why RN would committ suicide if she was taking a shower when it happened.

I agree it wouldn't have been her fault, BUT can totally see her placing blame on herself (if only I would have been there, etc.). Especially so quickly after the accident and not being able to have a lot of time to process what happened.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 08:47 AM
I agree it wouldn't have been her fault, BUT can totally see her placing blame on herself (if only I would have been there, etc.). Especially so quickly after the accident and not being able to have a lot of time to process what happened.

I am also beginning to believe Rebecca may have already been under a lot of stress dealing with the children.

IMO

BrownRice
09-02-2011, 08:50 AM
I am also beginning to believe Rebecca may have already been under a lot of stress dealing with the children.

IMO

Yes, especially teenagers. She wasn't their mother (or their step mother for that matter), but was obviously in charge of them quite a bit while JS worked. I could totally see conflict and issues in this scenario.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 08:53 AM
Problem with this case, in my opinion, is that the only 2 options (suicide or murder) are both so outlandish and unlikely. To me, the murder scenario is harder to buy. If it was a week or so later than Max's accident/death, I'd be able to consider it. But, I just don't find it plausible that either parent left their dying child's bedside to do it. And I think they would be consumed by grief and despair at that time too to be angry about lack of supervision (if that was the case). Blaming another person would come later. Just my thoughts.

And if it's true RZ was in the shower at the time, how could it possibly be her fault. A 6 year old doesn't need 24 hr supervision (hovering over him). If they did, no parent in the world would be able to take a shower! Or sleep. I really can't imagine JS would think she was responsible.

If Rebecca was taking Jonah's changing of clothes to him then he never left the hospital during this time.

I really have to agree with you. I think Maxie's parents were so caught up in their own pain that they werent even thinking about Rebecca at the time and I have never seen a motive for Adam to be involved in Rebecca's death.

She may have felt left out and that also could lead to more depression.

LaLaw2000
09-02-2011, 09:05 AM
While I have no source for this because I simply cannot remember where I read it; it had been stated that JS had left the hospital for an hour or so that evening before Rebecca was found the next morning. IIRC, and MOO

Just saying.

jjenny
09-02-2011, 10:02 AM
Yes, especially teenagers. She wasn't their mother (or their step mother for that matter), but was obviously in charge of them quite a bit while JS worked. I could totally see conflict and issues in this scenario.

She might have had conflict and issues with the teenagers but how does that prove she killed herself?

Inobu
09-02-2011, 10:52 AM
Now that SDSD position is made public here is what I mean about the choice of words. The word usage defines the mindset and the mindset defines the position.

If the quote is accurate concerning "Ironclad" this case and the investigation is questionable.

Definition:

ironclad
adj [ˌaɪənˈklæd]
1. covered or protected with iron an ironclad warship
2. inflexible; rigid an ironclad rule
3. not able to be assailed or contradicted an ironclad argument
n [ˈaɪənˌklæd]
(Historical Terms) a large wooden 19th-century warship with armoured plating

Their usage of ironclad is indicative of someone trying to protect their position more so then presenting the facts. Whom ever leaked and quoted show LE position and their disposition.

The true nature of the response would have been "the findings" not "it is ironclad". One can see the LE is trying to defend their position.

The only logical explanation is they screwed up the investigation and did not have any evidence tying 1 or 2 of 3 to the case.

As I said before.

To serve justice or serve yourself, it appears that someone chose the latter.

Inobu

Citizens of San Diego you have a problem.

The only victim is Rebecca Zahau! Max death was a tragic accident and the others are ................"witnesses".

elementry
09-02-2011, 10:53 AM
If Rebecca was taking Jonah's changing of clothes to him then he never left the hospital during this time.

I really have to agree with you. I think Maxie's parents were so caught up in their own pain that they werent even thinking about Rebecca at the time and I have never seen a motive for Adam to be involved in Rebecca's death.

She may have felt left out and that also could lead to more depression.

But was she in fact so self-absorbed that she became willing to leave this world in such abrupt fashion , with the obvious incidental side effect/(intention?) of leaving a spectacular death scene and throwing a family already in pain into even more high profile disarray and under a cloud of menacing innuendo? (Not to mention the infliction of pain and even shame on her own family to whom it sounds as if she was quite close). This would be an act of rage and spite, alongside the depression and feelings of guilt, spiralling to a fatal level a mere hours after a reassuring phone call with her sister. Is there any supportable notion that this was the kind of person Rebecca was? It seems her family AND her ex certainly don't think so. It appears this will have to be explained away somehow by LE; even if just rehashing the well-worn psychological rationale that a suicide is by its nature a pain-induced implosion of an irrational urge to cease existing without any care to others who might be affected, with only the goal of non-existing being relevant at the moment.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 10:57 AM
She might have had conflict and issues with the teenagers but how does that prove she killed herself?

Imo, it could show she was already under a lot of stress concerning the children. Then the worst possible thing that could happen........ happened..........now Maxie is dead and she was the only adult there. Imo that would exacerbate her anxiety and feelings of hopelessness.

jjenny
09-02-2011, 11:01 AM
Imo, it could show she was already under a lot of stress concerning the children. Then the worst possible thing that could happen........ happened..........now Maxie is dead and she was the only adult there. Imo that would exacerbate her anxiety and feelings of hopelessness.

I was babysitting my sibling when I was a teenager without adults being there. I don't understand why she would be the one to blame for Max's accident especially if she was in the shower and two of his siblings were in the home (according to family's lawyer).

elementry
09-02-2011, 11:05 AM
Now that SDSD position is made public here is what I mean about the choice of words. The word usage defines the mindset and the mindset defines the position.

If the quote is accurate concerning "Ironclad" this case and the investigation is questionable.

Definition:

ironclad
adj [ˌaɪənˈklæd]
1. covered or protected with iron an ironclad warship
2. inflexible; rigid an ironclad rule
3. not able to be assailed or contradicted an ironclad argument
n [ˈaɪənˌklæd]
(Historical Terms) a large wooden 19th-century warship with armoured plating

Their usage of ironclad is indicative of someone trying to protect their position more so then presenting the facts. Whom ever leaked and quoted show LE position and their disposition.

The true nature of the response would have been "the findings" not "it is ironclad". One can see the LE is trying to defend their position.

The only logical explanation is they screwed up the investigation and did not have any evidence tying 1 or 2 of 3 to the case.

As I said before.

To serve justice or serve yourself, it appears that someone chose the latter.

Inobu

Citizens of San Diego you have a problem.

Too bad it appears there isn't a single reporter who was curious to get beyond the media blackout and investigate what may have been going on behind the scenes with the well-lawyered-up and P.R.'ed up Team Shacknai, and the LE authorities. What pressure was being brought to bear with lawsuits and/or other threats and/or enticements (civil lawsuits, promises of embarrassments if the PR firm was to go on the offensive, in the event of LE continuing on with a wrongful death investigation.) Almost certainly, LE has been under pressure from the highly repped Shacknai side, compared with the distant and much less able Zahau family.

There's a great "untold story" here to be ferreted out by a good journalist, if there exists one any more in Southern California.

elementry
09-02-2011, 11:08 AM
I was babysitting my sibling when I was a teenager without adults being there. I don't understand why she would be the one to blame for Max's accident especially if she was in the shower and two of his siblings were in the home (according to family's lawyer).

This is totally new info, isn't it, that another sibling was present for all of this? Wonder if they were ever interviewed, being presumably ensconced in far away South Carolina when the so-called (poo) hit the fan.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 11:08 AM
But was she in fact so self-absorbed that she became willing to leave this world in such abrupt fashion , with the obvious incidental side effect/(intention?) of leaving a spectacular death scene and throwing a family already in pain into even more high profile disarray and under a cloud of menacing innuendo? (Not to mention the infliction of pain and even shame on her own family to whom it sounds as if she was quite close). This would be an act of rage and spite, alongside the depression and feelings of guilt, spiraling to a fatal level a mere hours after a reassuring phone call with her sister. Is there any supportable notion that this was the kind of person Rebecca was? It seems her family AND her ex certainly don't think so. It appears this will have to be explained away somehow by LE; even if just rehashing the well-worn psychological rationale that a suicide is by its nature a pain-induced implosion of an irrational urge to cease existing without any care to others who might be affected, with only the goal of non-existing being relevant at the moment.

I don't think Rebecca thought of others. If suicide victims did then they would realize the pain of their loved ones would be devastating for the rest of their lives. So imo, they are honed in on their own pain only which they feel they just cant endure.

I think it is quite 'normal' for family members and loved ones to deny their loved one would never do something like this but sadly over 30,000 people a year do commit suicide and I have no doubt a lot of those other families never thought it would happen either.

The problem is no one really knows what goes on in the mind of someone who is contemplating suicide. Often the families do not know. The suicidal person does not want to alert anyone who may stop what they are determined to carry out.

I think Rebecca already felt the stress when she had text about issues she was having with the children. If the children made her feel like an outsider then the death of Max would just drive her into further depression and despair, imo.

IMO

time
09-02-2011, 11:10 AM
More PR, because no one believes she committed suicide, so the briefing is a way to get the media and the public to drink the Kool-aid.

I will never be convinced she killed herself, if Maxie and his sister/brother (?) were planking it was an ACCIDENT, it was NOT RN's fault and she knew that, who didn't accept that was someone else.

I shower and leave my 1 yr old with my 15 yr old all the time. God forbid, but accidents happen. I found out my 15 was planking by stalking his FB the other day. I didn't even know he had ever heard of it. 50 pictures of him and his friends planking at the beach, I went nuts on him and told him how dangerous it was. He was planking laying on things that were flat, but still, I told him he cannot do it anymore, even laying down.

RIP Rebecca, so much for coming to America for a better life.


This was not a suicide and I don't believe Rebecca's friends and family are just 'not able to accept it' either.

Why do I get the feeling someone wanted Rebecca's official story about how Max's accident occurred to be changed? Kids do silly things, but some parents can't accept that. I really wonder though if planking was really Max's idea.

jjenny
09-02-2011, 11:14 AM
This is totally new info, isn't it, that another sibling was present for all of this? Wonder if they were ever interviewed, being presumably ensconced in far away South Carolina when the so-called (poo) hit the fan.

Yes, it's new if the family's lawyer is correct. Also some reports claimed it was RN's sister in the home. While the family lawyer said it was Max's siblings.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 11:15 AM
I was babysitting my sibling when I was a teenager without adults being there. I don't understand why she would be the one to blame for Max's accident especially if she was in the shower and two of his siblings were in the home (according to family's lawyer).

I understand jjenny and I agree with you. I was 16 and 17 when my brothers were born. I actually cared for them more than our mom since she worked the evening shift.

I dont know that anyone blamed Rebecca but I do think it is understandable that she may have blamed herself.

Now I do know that if anything had happened to my brothers while I was caring for them.... even if it was an accident I couldnt prevent... I would somehow place blame on myself........"beating" myself up with the "what ifs."

IMO

Inobu
09-02-2011, 11:17 AM
Too bad it appears there isn't a single reporter who was curious to get beyond the media blackout and investigate what may have been going on behind the scenes with the well-lawyered-up and P.R.'ed up Team Shacknai, and the LE authorities. What pressure was being brought to bear with lawsuits and/or other threats and/or enticements (civil lawsuits, promises of embarrassments if the PR firm was to go on the offensive, in the event of LE continuing on with a wrongful death investigation.) Almost certainly, LE has been under pressure from the highly repped Shacknai side, compared with the distant and much less able Zahau family.

There's a great "untold story" here to be ferreted out by a good journalist, if there exists one any more in Southern California.

Lets see what happens today and the questions posed to LE. If this does not provoke action then we have surely entered into a new age of journalism and judicial system.

Inobu

Slmineburg
09-02-2011, 11:27 AM
Women don't kill themselves this way - naked, bound hands AND feet (oh and wernt' hands behind her back?). They don't shoot themselves either normall. Pills, carbon monoxide are the way - nothing messy. Plus, if she did kill herself over grief of whatever kind, she would have left a note. That's how most of us women think/operate. I think someone "did her in". Came to the house, crime of opportunity. Found her at home alone, naked, getting ready to dress or shower. When you kill someone you don't take time to make them get dressed first!

time
09-02-2011, 11:30 AM
Yes, it's new if the family's lawyer is correct. Also some reports claimed it was RN's sister in the home. While the family lawyer said it was Max's siblings.


There is that one Coronado Patch article with a lot of comments about why the news suddenly changed from Max's sister to Rebecca's sister being there on Monday morning. The reporter was asked and she said LE verified it was Rebecca's sister. So, it would be really interesting if they gave out misleading/false information?

Per the suicide note: My take on it is that there was no suicide note (and that was said from the start). Someone came up with some vague writing claiming it was Rebecca's and was possibly a suicide note. Rebecca's family is saying that is not even her handwriting.

Quester
09-02-2011, 11:31 AM
9/2 Patch: Sheriff Tries to Lay Mansion Case to Rest

[The Z family] learned of Friday's news conference, said [RN]'s ex-husband [NN], through a reporter, not investigators, and felt blindsided.

http://coronado.patch.com/articles/sheriff-tries-to-lay-mansion-case-to-rest

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 11:44 AM
Women don't kill themselves this way - naked, bound hands AND feet (oh and wernt' hands behind her back?). They don't shoot themselves either normall. Pills, carbon monoxide are the way - nothing messy. Plus, if she did kill herself over grief of whatever kind, she would have left a note. That's how most of us women think/operate. I think someone "did her in". Came to the house, crime of opportunity. Found her at home alone, naked, getting ready to dress or shower. When you kill someone you don't take time to make them get dressed first!

2/3 of suicide victims do not leave notes.

I do know females hang themselves naked and bind their hands and feet. It happened to my daughter's friend three weeks before Rebecca's death.

IMO

Inobu
09-02-2011, 11:46 AM
There is that one Coronado Patch article with a lot of comments about why the news suddenly changed from Max's sister to Rebecca's sister being there on Monday morning. The reporter was asked and she said LE verified it was Rebecca's sister. So, it would be really interesting if they gave out misleading/false information?

Per the suicide note: My take on it is that there was no suicide note (and that was said from the start). Someone came up with some vague writing claiming it was Rebecca's and was possibly a suicide note. Rebecca's family is saying that is not even her handwriting.

One can see a pattern where the suicide evidence continues to further conclude a homicide. The irony is that people continue to find justification in for every staged act.

We will soon hear that the handwriting of the note is off because she wrote it with here hands tied behind her back.

It would be interesting to know if there is a split within the investigation team. I find it hard to believe that all are in concurrence.

Inobu

Quester
09-02-2011, 11:47 AM
According to M***7*** on THM, there was a helicopter hovering over PV this morning at 5am, something s/he's never seen before.

And, interesting comments from same poster in same and in another post.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1304&start=750

jjenny
09-02-2011, 11:52 AM
There is that one Coronado Patch article with a lot of comments about why the news suddenly changed from Max's sister to Rebecca's sister being there on Monday morning. The reporter was asked and she said LE verified it was Rebecca's sister. So, it would be really interesting if they gave out misleading/false information?

Per the suicide note: My take on it is that there was no suicide note (and that was said from the start). Someone came up with some vague writing claiming it was Rebecca's and was possibly a suicide note. Rebecca's family is saying that is not even her handwriting.

Reports that the teenager was RN's sister were coming out even quite recently and this info appears to be attributed to LE. If this in fact is false and the teenager was Max's sibling, my question is for what purpose was the teenager claimed to be RN's sister?

time
09-02-2011, 11:52 AM
Zahau-Loehner said that she and her family have been searching for answers since she received a personal call from Shacknai after her sister was found dead. Shacknai told her that her sister had committed suicide.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2011/09/01/20110901detectives-announce-findings-friday-womans-death-shacknai-mansion.html#ixzz1WoKvG2bW



Interesting, huh?

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 11:52 AM
Rebecca was in the shower when Max fell. Rebecca was found naked.

Max fell while planking, which had to be done from the second floor railing. I'm guessing one of the teens was on the first floor taking the photo and MS either fell on them {"My daughter was also injured"....RN would not refer to her sister as her daughter} or they tried to catch him when he fell. Neighbor reports that a sibling left before the ambulance even arrived, but GS was reported to have gone to the hospital then left. Well that all makes much more sense now that it is being reported that RN was watching all three S. children at the time of the accident.

Max fell from the second floor balcony. Rebecca is found hanging, hog tied depending upon how you read it, from the outside balcony.

I don't think this dog and pony show is going to convince me.

This reeks of "an eye for an eye" to me.......

jjenny
09-02-2011, 11:57 AM
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2011/09/01/20110901detectives-announce-findings-friday-womans-death-shacknai-mansion.html#ixzz1WoKvG2bW



Interesting, huh?


Yes, it's pretty interesting that he would allegedly declare it a suicide immediately. I mean, police could not say if it was suicide or murder. How would he know?

time
09-02-2011, 12:05 PM
Yes, it's pretty interesting that he would allegedly declare it a suicide immediately. I mean, police could not say if it was suicide or murder. How would he know?

I think it is quite telling, don't you?


Put it together with this:

"Their main reason is saying that they did not see any signs of struggle or physical injury that would show there's foul play," Zahau-Loehner said.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/rebecca-zahau-mansion-death-ruled-suicide-sister/story?id=14435011

And, I go back to my two favorite theories - she was forced at gunpoint (or whatever) to bind herself or she was disabled somehow first that didn't leave much of a trail. It's seems like a no brainer that there doesn't have to be signs of a huge struggle in order to still be a homicide.

And, now we know there's something significant to add to motive.

And, we now know that Jonah was pushing the suicide theme very early on.

x_files
09-02-2011, 12:06 PM
Yes, it's pretty interesting that he would allegedly declare it a suicide immediately. I mean, police could not say if it was suicide or murder. How would he know?

If I just lost a child then my gf I would be in denial and not be assuming anything at this point. I wouldn't want to believe it was suicide unless the LE told me over and over again. Unless LE told him right then and there.
I wish they'd investigate more.

jjenny
09-02-2011, 12:09 PM
If I just lost a child then my gf I would be in denial and not be assuming anything at this point. I wouldn't want to believe it was suicide unless the LE told me over and over again. Unless LE told him right then and there.
I wish they'd investigate more.

Her ex-husband doesn't believe it to this day. And the sister claims JS immediately said it was suicide, at the time police was saying it could be suicide or murder (at least publicly). Interesting information to say the least.

time
09-02-2011, 12:16 PM
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/family-rejects-mansion-suicide-finding

The family would like other experts called in, Bremner said, including a forensic psychiatrist, and they want to know if surveillance tapes have been reviewed to determine everyone's whereabouts in the hours preceding Zahau's death.


The family doesn't even know this by now!

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 12:18 PM
1) Good for Zahau family for taking control of the press conference direction with a preemptive strike.

2) Attorney Anne Bremner would do well to start her investigation by tracking down the unnamed source of the earlier quote, "No one is investigating this as a homicide."

3) Whatever hope "witnesses" or other stakeholders have in a tidy off-the-hook "suicide" finding, the overly controlled and apparently lopsided nature of the investigation to date has already backfired in favor of Team Zahau. It seems highly unlikely the public will buy LE POV, and see it rather as a bungled investigation and a lot of grandstanding.

4) Finally, this opens the door to a real investigation.

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 12:29 PM
Too bad it appears there isn't a single reporter who was curious to get beyond the media blackout and investigate what may have been going on behind the scenes with the well-lawyered-up and P.R.'ed up Team Shacknai, and the LE authorities. What pressure was being brought to bear with lawsuits and/or other threats and/or enticements (civil lawsuits, promises of embarrassments if the PR firm was to go on the offensive, in the event of LE continuing on with a wrongful death investigation.) Almost certainly, LE has been under pressure from the highly repped Shacknai side, compared with the distant and much less able Zahau family.

There's a great "untold story" here to be ferreted out by a good journalist, if there exists one any more in Southern California.

Newspaper industry dying, newspapers have no budgets, most reporters make a whopping $30-$40K yr. Add to that a story shackled by corporate attorneys and it gets pretty dicey. Great investigative stories tend to come out during or after trials when actions and testimony are on public record so the news organization doesn't get sued. That is, if they're not settled out of court and sealed. If the latter doesn't come to pass, this will eventually make a great "untold story," but it could take years.

A better bet right now might be Anne Bremner, her legal team, and the investigators she can pull together going into two months after the incident.

Inobu
09-02-2011, 12:29 PM
More and more as the story unfolds it proves gaps in what was reported to LE.

If planking was the catalyst in MS death that eliminates RN and her direct role but implicates the individuals teaching or encouraging this fatal act. The question is was the teenagers ushered off?

And if so who ushered them off and why?

I have new suspicions as to why.

Train wreck of people.

Chablis
09-02-2011, 12:34 PM
Crazy! I wonder why she bound herself? Maybe she wanted to frame the father, was he going to leave her? Was she fearful of that? Probably.jmo

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 12:39 PM
I would like Anne Bremner to find who the woman TG reported seeing at the mansion the morning he picked up Ocean. I think that would be a great start. And hospital video records and sign in sheets.
:cow:

Quester
09-02-2011, 12:40 PM
Are we seeing the SDCSD upstaging and turning the tables on the hired PR firm's efforts?

time
09-02-2011, 12:54 PM
More and more as the story unfolds it proves gaps in what was reported to LE.

If planking was the catalyst in MS death that eliminates RN and her direct role but implicates the individuals teaching or encouraging this fatal act. The question is was the teenagers ushered off?

And if so who ushered them off and why?

I have new suspicions as to why.

Train wreck of people.

I think now we can see why all those stories conflicted:



We have facts from the radio internet source someone posted early on about Rebecca and a sib going to the hospital.
It was claimed, presumably by LE and falsely, that the girl in the house was Rebecca's sister.
We now have indications that all three siblings were together that morning.
LE is the one who said sib flew off to SC immediately, right? Where did they get their info?
The friend's story (boys who were sitting on the roof viewing Rebecca dead) told in the media does not match sib exactly - he says she left before the ambulance arrive I believe . I think this is interesting.
Seems there is evidence of planking.
A mysterious note now appears, vague and probably not even in Rebecca's handwriting.
Suicide meme immediately promoted by sibs dad.


I'm also wondering if Rebecca really sent that text message to her sister. I find it odd she would tell them not to call. You can always turn your phone off and call back later.

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 12:56 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/coronado-mansion-death-rebecca-zahau-ruled-suicide-sister/story?id=14435011

Coronado Mansion Death of Rebecca Zahau Ruled a Suicide, Sister Says

Zahau, a former ophthalmic technician, performed CPR on Max and asked her younger sister, who was also there at the time, to call 911, Zahau-Loehner told ABCNews.com today.

I'm not sure what to believe any more. The conflicting information is coming in fast and furious.

coastal
09-02-2011, 12:56 PM
2/3 of suicide victims do not leave notes.

I do know females hang themselves naked and bind their hands and feet. It happened to my daughter's friend three weeks before Rebecca's death.

IMO
Ocean, I appreciate your patient and respectful tone of voice. I really do. As my grandfather might say, "You, sir, are a gentleman."

:rocker:

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 01:06 PM
How strange is it that JS and DS would issue this joint statement:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/coronado-mansion-mystery-15-detectives-zahaus-personal-trainer/story?id=14124073

Mansion Deaths Put Spotlight on Past Accusations of Violence By Jonah Shacknai
By CHRISTINA CARON (@cdcaron) and SCOTT SHULMAN

CORONADO, Calif. July 21, 2011

Jonah and Dina Shacknai sent out a statement earlier this week saying the records release "pains us greatly" especially now after losing their son.

"While our marriage did not work out as either of us had hoped, it did produce a wonderful son, Max, whom both of us loved very much," the statement read. "His loss is unimaginable. These police reports are not reflective of the totality or the precise details of the events during a difficult time in our marriage that we worked through together."

But neither one has said one word about Rebecca's tragic death. Was she not part of the family? She was in family photographs. Is she not worthy of a single statement, or are they worried about how that statement could be interpreted? Were they instructed not to speak about it? By whom? To comment on a long gone marriage but complete silence about the gruesome death of your significant other and the woman who cared for your child for a significant amount of time is very interesting to me......

elfie
09-02-2011, 01:07 PM
Amazing what money can buy...

time
09-02-2011, 01:09 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/coronado-mansion-death-rebecca-zahau-ruled-suicide-sister/story?id=14435011

Coronado Mansion Death of Rebecca Zahau Ruled a Suicide, Sister Says



I'm not sure what to believe any more. The conflicting information is coming in fast and furious.


Yeah ... didn't a news story just say both of Max's sibs were there also?

Maybe someone who posted that radio reference will pipe back in with the transcription. I guess it's possible they were all there, Rebecca's sister went to ER with her, and someone wisked the other sib(s) off before the ambulance arrived? But how could that have happened so quickly given Jonah was at the golf course and Dina was MIA? Unless Jonah was called by someone and he put that in motion having someone pick the sib up and take somewhere?

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 01:11 PM
What is the link for NBC San Diego live stream of press conference?

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 01:17 PM
Ocean, I appreciate your patient and respectful tone of voice. I really do. As my grandfather might say, "You, sir, are a gentleman."

:rocker:

Thank you so much for the kind words, coastal.

I certainly understand anyone that has a differing opinion than mine on this case. Homicides can mimic suicides and suicides can mimic homicides so it is very understandable why others do not agree on the COD/MOD in this case.

I would hope your grandfather would say to me "You, ma'am, are a fine lady.":great:

imo

Carioca
09-02-2011, 01:17 PM
What is the link for NBC San Diego live stream of press conference?

Here is the link to 10 news - in grey box near top of article - link not active yet:
http://www.10news.com/news/29048538/detail.html

And here is link to NBC San Diego - although I have tried unsuccessfully to find an actual link on their site:
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/128888933.html

Inobu
09-02-2011, 01:19 PM
"Zahau, a former ophthalmic technician, performed CPR on Max and asked her younger sister, who was also there at the time, to call 911, Zahau-Loehner told ABCNews.com today."

There is so much to this story that can reveal the root cause or motive. A irrational person can create a mindset that defy logic.

It was pointed out earlier that RN played a part or was to blame. The question is from what or who's perspective.

Performing CPR is critical, performing CPR on someone with as head or neck injury is a catch 22. The question was RN put in a catch 22 with an irrational individual hence the blame.

Inobu

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 01:22 PM
Here is the link to 10 news - in grey box near top of article - link not active yet:
http://www.10news.com/news/29048538/detail.html

And here is link to NBC San Diego - although I have tried unsuccessfully to find an actual link on their site:
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/128888933.html

Do you know if any of the national tv news channels will be carrying it?

tia

Inobu
09-02-2011, 01:25 PM
Yeah ... didn't a news story just say both of Max's sibs were there also?

Maybe someone who posted that radio reference will pipe back in with the transcription. I guess it's possible they were all there, Rebecca's sister went to ER with her, and someone wisked the other sib(s) off before the ambulance arrived? But how could that have happened so quickly given Jonah was at the golf course and Dina was MIA? Unless Jonah was called by someone and he put that in motion having someone pick the sib up and take somewhere?

The million dollar question............Why?

Carioca
09-02-2011, 01:43 PM
Do you know if any of the national tv news channels will be carrying it?

tia

Fox News TV just now said they will be having a live report on the Coronado deaths.. with 15 minutes to go before PC, am hoping Fox will air it live.

time
09-02-2011, 01:46 PM
The million dollar question............Why?

Well, yes ... why is that sooo important to do if true. She would need to be interviewed? And, I'm not so sure that would be the best thing for her emotional health if this was just an accident. The bad part about pegging this stuff down is how is the press supposed to ask intelligent questions?We've spent weeks on this stuff and ... I think SDSD should have prereleased info so intelligent questions should be asked. I'm afraid not nearly as much will come of this and they retain their spoon fed power points for the press. Reminds me of being on a consulting team once. We were there to evaluate a program. They kept trying to power point us to oblviion until the team leader actually told them to cease and desist. We want to see xyz and we want it now, we are not looking to be presented to, we are her to ask questions and get answers with documentation. Loved it!

scorekeeper
09-02-2011, 01:49 PM
The million dollar question............Why?

WOW, just WOW.

I have been gone the last couple of days getting the kids moved into new apartments at college....and I come back to this....

What a crock; if LE can't explain it to RN's family in a believable fashion (hence they hire an attorney), how the heck are they going to explain it to us???

With knowing that JS called the family and said RN commited suicide, that makes me believe even more that this was a HOMICIDE...

BUT, to answer the $$million$$ question......

Was there "help" in the house that whisked GS and her brother out of there?? Loyalty to JS to be paid later........

Did JS call DS and she assisted in getting the kids out of there? Remember she could not be reached.....did JS tell her...You have to do this......to be paid later....

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 01:52 PM
Fox News TV just now said they will be having a live report on the Coronado deaths.. with 15 minutes to go before PC, am hoping Fox will air it live.

Thank you so much for the info, Carioca.

I will turn it over to Fox News now.

IMO

10-6Mom
09-02-2011, 01:54 PM
Too bad it appears there isn't a single reporter who was curious to get beyond the media blackout and investigate what may have been going on behind the scenes with the well-lawyered-up and P.R.'ed up Team Shacknai, and the LE authorities. What pressure was being brought to bear with lawsuits and/or other threats and/or enticements (civil lawsuits, promises of embarrassments if the PR firm was to go on the offensive, in the event of LE continuing on with a wrongful death investigation.) Almost certainly, LE has been under pressure from the highly repped Shacknai side, compared with the distant and much less able Zahau family.

There's a great "untold story" here to be ferreted out by a good journalist, if there exists one any more in Southern California.

Elementary I agree with you 100%! this has bothered me from the start of this investigation. Now, all we can do is accept their findings or wait until records are unsealed and we can have the facts before us and come to our own conclusion! I agree that Rebecca is the victim in this case and will pray for her family during this time!

IMO if it was a suicide there would be no reason to keep the records sealed, right????

Quester
09-02-2011, 01:54 PM
10news was live a moment ago, now black:

http://www.10news.com/video/15013365/index.html

ETA: now live

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 01:58 PM
On here
http://www.cbs8.com/story/12522732/cbs-8-live-stream-player?redirected=true

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 02:01 PM
CNN live stream

http://live.cnn.com/

time
09-02-2011, 02:13 PM
"unwitnessed accident on Monday"?

Quester
09-02-2011, 02:18 PM
MS - upper cervical spinal cord contusion

Theory - "something caused him to slip" causing him to fall.

Pach
09-02-2011, 02:30 PM
if the evidence is not convincing , then the more reason not to declare the death a suicide or homicide. declaring it one or the other in the absence of convincing evidence is pure and simple expediency and a miscarriage of justice.

it does not have to be one or the other, but rather of "unknown or unresolved" cause, then again, this will all depend on the evidence they found.

Quester
09-02-2011, 02:32 PM
:thud:

Winnts
09-02-2011, 02:43 PM
Why withhold the message painted on the door??

Where did the paint and paintbrush come from?

Wouldn't it have been more logical for a distraught person to seek out a pen and paper rather than a tube of black paint and paint brush?

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 02:47 PM
The message was erased?!?!?!

Winnts
09-02-2011, 02:48 PM
So the message she retrieved before her death on her voicemail, the police can only ASSUME what was said based on the the witness who left it, since it was erased.

The police spoke as if it was fact she heard a report of Max's grave condition. Was it JS that left that message? If so, how do we know that is in fact what was said. Switch this around to a murder and the contents of that erased message are very important.

branwynbreeze
09-02-2011, 02:50 PM
I understand RZ being upset by accident, but if it happened as LE claims, unless she was right next to MS I doubt there is little that could have been done to save him once he started over balcony.

There has to be more for me to believe RZ committed suicide. Something LE/JS do not want released.

And yes, what was on the door? Come on LE, give up something to make sense to this entire thing.

10-6Mom
09-02-2011, 02:51 PM
Hmmmmm!:banghead: WOW!

Pach
09-02-2011, 02:55 PM
I dont have access to TV at work so let me know based on what you see on TV if its time to put in our job applications for the "Detective" position at that police department :floorlaugh:

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 02:57 PM
Excellent Q by reporter - "Out of the 372 suicides that occurred in San Diego County is the past year, how many of those were similar?" (paraphrasing)

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 02:58 PM
She fell 9' but didn't break her neck?

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 02:59 PM
Does anyone else notice how nervous all these LE (including the ME) appear (as if they're worried they may not be believed)?

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 03:00 PM
Please! Someone ask why the long sleeved t-shirt with the sleeves tied around her neck. What would the point of that be?

10-6Mom
09-02-2011, 03:01 PM
Why withhold the message painted on the door??

Where did the paint and paintbrush come from?

Wouldn't it have been more logical for a distraught person to seek out a pen and paper rather than a tube of black paint and paint brush?

Paint and a brush could be difficult to prove who wrote it, unlike pen and paper. The message was erased, I missed this!

What was the time of death??

The best quote "Science does not lie."

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 03:02 PM
Hello? Heard of gloves?

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 03:02 PM
These reporters are asking some very good questions.

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 03:05 PM
How tall is Max? How could he "have tripped" over the balcony railing???

branwynbreeze
09-02-2011, 03:08 PM
Another thing I don't understand is what does her state of mind 6 months prior to incident have to do with her state of mind in July? I find that a bit of a stretch unless they can say it continued or intensified through July. I cannot remember, but weren't both divorces still unresolved early 2011? Heck, that has got to be stressful, but were resolved.

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 03:08 PM
2 knives were found in the bedroom - one small & one large. Why 2 knives? It only takes one knife to cut rope.

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 03:08 PM
Convenient that a police officer stood on the balcony exactly behind where RZ allegedly threw herself over the railing. Any prints were obscured by the boot print. Why would he need to walk out there and look over?????

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:09 PM
How tall is Max? How could he "have tripped" over the balcony railing???

They said at one spot the railing dips down to 20 inches high.

imo

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:11 PM
2 knives were found in the bedroom - one small & one large. Why 2 knives? It only takes one knife to cut rope.

No other fingerprints found on either knife but Rebecca's.

IMO

10-6Mom
09-02-2011, 03:11 PM
Well that's good JS has accepted the findings of the investigation and they are sorry RN's family does not accept it! Hmmmm

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:12 PM
The message was erased?!?!?!

I am sure it has been painted over but LE has photos of it..........Im positive.

IMO

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 03:13 PM
Why the need to keep "the note" secret? If they can't definitely say it is a suicide note, they keep refering to it as "a message" why should that be proof of anything????

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:13 PM
So the message she retrieved before her death on her voicemail, the police can only ASSUME what was said based on the the witness who left it, since it was erased.

The police spoke as if it was fact she heard a report of Max's grave condition. Was it JS that left that message? If show how do we know that is in fact what was said. Switch this around to a murder and the contents of that erased message are very important.

I guess they mean well, but this LE crew seems a pretty credulous bunch. They were inclined to think this a suicide and went about building a scenario around that hypothesized conclusion. Yup, Jonah told them what was said in the call, and they rely upon it. A painted message is a perfect manner in which to ensure no effective handwriting ID. Someone said she was losing weight in january.......: So? ; well, it kind of fits in with an eventual suicide, so let's present that fact and feature it. That hand-tieing re-creation was shabby at best. There are her footprints on the ledge and a sign of dust displacement on the rail? Well that's just consistent with her going over; hardly dispositive proof of how. etc etc....

The only actual indication of a suicide is lack of other footprints, fingerprints and the like; i.e. some other figure present. But any cursory sweep of the room by forensics should turn up traces of others from some point in at least the previous weeks. Yet all they found was one officer's shoe print on the balcony? I wonder how well they vetted that place in the limited time they spent there. They refused to call it a crime scene from the get-go, yet it was always a fairly decent possibility at the least. They should have kept that scene under wraps for as long as needed, as long as there was a question there. But LE was going with the suspected suicide meme from Moment One - that 1'st press conference onward. Again, how could they rule out the Shacknai's as even persons of interest that early on?

LaLaw2000
09-02-2011, 03:14 PM
Thank you so much for the kind words, coastal.

I certainly understand anyone that has a differing opinion than mine on this case. Homicides can mimic suicides and suicides can mimic homicides so it is very understandable why others do not agree on the COD/MOD in this case.

I would hope your grandfather would say to me "You, ma'am, are a fine lady.":great:

imo


He would, Ocean! Your Grandfather would indeed be proud of you!

You always state your posts clearly and never argumentative, never rude. I appreciate how you can understand others opinion even though it may not be your opinion.

MOO, and now to catch up! I have forgotten what time the PC would be in California. I am Central Time!

OOPS!!!! I missed it!

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 03:14 PM
RE the note painted on the door: "Best characterized as a message", but not clear as a suicide note.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:15 PM
Why the need to keep "the note" secret? If they can't definitely say it is a suicide note, they keep refering to it as "a message" why should that be proof of anything????

Because that would be a private matter imo.

IMO

Pach
09-02-2011, 03:16 PM
its very easy to to hold Rebecca's lifeless hand and put her fingerprints all over the knife. By the way, is the orange cord ---> the electrical cord? or is it rope ? thanks

No other fingerprints found on either knife but Rebecca's.

IMO

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:16 PM
No other fingerprints found on either knife but Rebecca's.

IMO

Why is it not a possibility that someone was forcing her to cut that rope - and whatever else was needed to progress her through the "suicide" act?

Inobu
09-02-2011, 03:17 PM
Wow,

It is unbelievable how they skate around the answers. The question are not specific enough.

How did you (LE) know that RN actually heard the voice mail?

I can't believe this investigation.............

LaLaw2000
09-02-2011, 03:18 PM
I was more interested in this PC than the Anthony hearing, but I watched the hearing and missed out! I usually do!

GGGGGGRRRRRRRR

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 03:18 PM
I am sure it has been painted over but LE has photos of it..........Im positive.

IMO

They took the door as evidence. The text message she allegedly received 10 till 2 (?) was erased.....why erase the message if she immediately decided to commit suicide and went around gathering her rope, two knives, paint, paint brush, t-shirt etc.? Why choose to write the "message" in such a fashion? Wouldn't pen a paper have been easier and faster? Why that door? Why that room? Why tie it to the bed? The railing should have been plenty sturdy enough.

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:19 PM
Wow,

It is unbelievable how they skate around the answers. The question are not specific enough.

How did you (LE) know that RN actually heard the voice mail?

I can't believe this investigation.............

Almost grotesque the way they are withholding the facts allegedly for the sake of the victim's family. That must gall the Zahau's to no end.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:20 PM
I guess they mean well, but this LE crew seems a pretty credulous bunch. They were inclined to think this a suicide and went about building a scenario around that hypothesized conclusion. Yup, Jonah told them what was said in the call, and they rely upon it. A painted message is a perfect manner in which to ensure no effective handwriting ID. Someone said she was losing weight in january.......: So? ; well, it kind of fits in with an eventual suicide, so let's present that fact and feature it. That hand-tieing re-creation was shabby at best. There are her footprints on the ledge and a sign of dust displacement on the rail? Well that's just consistent with her going over; hardly dispositive proof of how. etc etc....

The only actual indication of a suicide is lack of other footprints, fingerprints and the like; i.e. some other figure present. But any cursory sweep of the room by forensics should turn up traces of others from some point in at least the previous weeks. Yet all they found was one officer's shoe print on the balcony? I wonder how well they vetted that place in the limited time they spent there. They refused to call it a crime scene from the get-go, yet it was always a fairly decent possibility at the least. They should have kept that scene under wraps for as long as needed, as long as there was a question there. But LE was going with the suspected suicide meme from Moment One - that 1'st press conference onward. Again, how could they rule out the Shacknai's as even persons of interest that early on?

They also said that there was no other DNA on the rope used but Rebecca's

And after all this time it wasnt an extension cord like we thought but some type of cloth type rope. I think he said the type that may have been used for pulling boats and there was an empty space in the garage that would have accommodated the rope.

They know where Jonah and Dina were that night/morning and I think they gave Adam a poly and he passed with flying colors.

IMO

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:22 PM
They took the door as evidence. The text message she allegedly received 10 till 2 (?) was erased.....why erase the message if she immediately decided to commit suicide and went around gathering her rope, two knives, paint, paint brush, t-shirt etc.? Why choose to write the "message" in such a fashion? Wouldn't pen a paper have been easier and faster? Why that door? Why that room? Why tie it to the bed? The railing should have been plenty sturdy enough.

In a murder scenario, the hired hit person - or whoever - might have been instructed to get the phone and delete an angry message. Anger or rage could provide a possible motive for murder, so the message would have to be deleted in the course of the crime, for cover-up sake. She could even have been forced to delete it herself.

10-6Mom
09-02-2011, 03:22 PM
I am sure it has been painted over but LE has photos of it..........Im positive.

IMO

I think they are talking about the voicemail from JS to RN.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:23 PM
They took the door as evidence. The text message she allegedly received 10 till 2 (?) was erased.....why erase the message if she immediately decided to commit suicide and went around gathering her rope, two knives, paint, paint brush, t-shirt etc.? Why choose to write the "message" in such a fashion? Wouldn't pen a paper have been easier and faster? Why that door? Why that room? Why tie it to the bed? The railing should have been plenty sturdy enough.

I think she picked that bedroom because it led out to the balcony. From the sound of it the balcony was rarely used since it has dust enough that her footprints could be seen.

IMO

BrownRice
09-02-2011, 03:23 PM
They took the door as evidence. The text message she allegedly received 10 till 2 (?) was erased.....why erase the message if she immediately decided to commit suicide and went around gathering her rope, two knives, paint, paint brush, t-shirt etc.? Why choose to write the "message" in such a fashion? Wouldn't pen a paper have been easier and faster? Why that door? Why that room? Why tie it to the bed? The railing should have been plenty sturdy enough.

Was it a text or voicemail that was deleted? If text couldn't they check the senders sent mailbox?

Winnts
09-02-2011, 03:23 PM
If she was a woman who entered a 3 page diary into her cell phone, I highly doubt this is the same woman who would write a suicide note/message on a door with black paint and a paintbrush. That's quite a crude way to leave a message in your final moments. I don't buy it.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:24 PM
I think they are talking about the voicemail from JS to RN.

Thank you.

Sorry everyone...........I am trying to read too fast.

IMO

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:24 PM
They also said that there was no other DNA on the rope used but Rebecca's

And after all this time it wasnt an extension cord like we thought but some type of cloth type rope. I think he said the type that may have been used for pulling boats and there was an empty space in the garage that would have accommodated the rope.

They know where Jonah and Dina were that night/morning and I think they gave Adam a poly and he passed with flying colors.

IMO

Did they interview the hypothetical hired hit man? Oh wait, it was a more probable suicide from the get-go, as far as LE let on.

BrownRice
09-02-2011, 03:25 PM
Did they say anything about toxicology?

Winnts
09-02-2011, 03:25 PM
In a murder scenario, the hired hit person - or whoever - might have been instructed to get the phone and delete an angry message. Anger or rage could provide a possible motive for murder, so the message would have to be deleted in the course of the crime, for cover-up sake. She could even have been forced to delete it herself.


Exactly my point. And the person who may have had motive is the one stating the contents of the erased message!!! It could have been a threat!

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 03:27 PM
Did they say anything about toxicology?

The ME stated that no alcohol or drugs (RX or otherwise) were found in her system.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:28 PM
Wow,

It is unbelievable how they skate around the answers. The question are not specific enough.

How did you (LE) know that RN actually heard the voice mail?

I can't believe this investigation.............

Wouldn't she be the one to erase it though? It makes logical sense she heard it first. If it was from Jonah then wouldnt that show up on his cell phone records?

The main thing is they know for sure where Jonah and Dina were during those hours and they have completely ruled out Adam as having anything to do with this. Maybe he was one of the ones who took a poly.

IMO

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:28 PM
Did they say anything about toxicology?

Nothing at all in her system. And no signs of sexual abuse.

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 03:30 PM
My impression of the presser: LE wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible, and wanted the reporters to accept the determination, and the more hard questions the reporters asked, it appeared that the urgency to end the PC grew. MOO

Inobu
09-02-2011, 03:30 PM
There's more to it............something is not right. Too Surreal..........

Inobu

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:30 PM
Sign On SanDiego's webcast is pathetic ; kind of like their general reporting on this story. Amateur hour over there? I'm sure they just need to get back to pie-baking stories and accounts of charity cocktail parties. Thank God this nuisance has been finally cleared up! (sarc off)

BrownRice
09-02-2011, 03:31 PM
Is there a link to the report?

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:31 PM
its very easy to to hold Rebecca's lifeless hand and put her fingerprints all over the knife. By the way, is the orange cord ---> the electrical cord? or is it rope ? thanks

It wasnt an electrical cord.

It was a red rope maybe made of cotton fibers.

IMO

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:33 PM
It wasnt an electrical cord.

It was a red rope maybe made of cotton fibers.

IMO

Sounds maybe like one of those vinyl boat cords. Who works on boats and might on occasion handle Jonah's? Jonah said he wasn't even sure if there were ropes in his garage.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:35 PM
He would, Ocean! Your Grandfather would indeed be proud of you!

You always state your posts clearly and never argumentative, never rude. I appreciate how you can understand others opinion even though it may not be your opinion.

MOO, and now to catch up! I have forgotten what time the PC would be in California. I am Central Time!

OOPS!!!! I missed it!

Thank you so much.

I am so sorry you missed it too, LaLaw.

I am sure you can find the video of it on line today.

IMO

cluciano63
09-02-2011, 03:38 PM
I do believe this was most likely a suicide, personally, but unless they have more detail than they are giving, why not leave it open as "undetermined?" Not to say "suicide" cannot be changed at some point, but it is difficult to have it done.

LaLaw2000
09-02-2011, 03:38 PM
I do hope someone has recorded this. I got in on the end of it.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:38 PM
Sounds maybe like one of those vinyl boat cords. Who works on boats and might on occasion handle Jonah's? Jonah said he wasn't even sure if there were ropes in his garage.

Yes, I thought it may be the typical nylon red rope used to strap things down or tie up a small boat, etc.

A lot more flexible than an electrical cord.

I imagine the one doing the demonstration used the same type of rope dont you?

It could have been left there when the mansion was bought.

IMO

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 03:40 PM
Why the large and small knives? Not sure what size she might need so I'll take 'em both? She could have easily been pushed over the railing. And what was with the t-shirt? Please, someone explain the t-shirt to me.

Rebecca was in the bathroom "near the stairs". Oceanblueeyes posted a footprint of the house in the previous thread that shows the 1/2 bath under the landing in the stairs. Rebecca would have been coming out the door that shows at the bottom of the staircase. She would have been the first person to reach Max.

What was the big deal about pointing out that Ocean was on the landing when the officers arrived? They mentioned that several times.

Betty P
09-02-2011, 03:40 PM
They were re-playing the press conference on the web site of the San Diego NBC affiliate, but just stopped. Maybe they will replay it again or make it available on the site.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Officials-Update-Mansion-Mystery-Deaths-129112698.html

ETA: Ok, the repeat of the PC is back on their web site now.

This conference is odd. Its peculiar the way they tiptoe around the evidence, don't fully answer questions and talk about things that don't seem to be really relevant.

Carpe Pacem
09-02-2011, 03:41 PM
The awful sadness of watching that has completely unmade my day.

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:42 PM
I do believe this was most likely a suicide, personally, but unless they have more detail than they are giving, why not leave it open as "undetermined?" Not to say "suicide" cannot be changed at some point, but it is difficult to have it done.

It's a long Labor Day weekend. They wanted to wrap this thing up and be finished with it, with the least collateral damage as possible. Pretend it's not a sloppy investigation and let's get on to election season and whatnot? When's the sheriff up for re-elect? In the meantime, break out the beers at the SDPD picnic. That lead investigator looks like he likes his beer, judging from that gut.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:42 PM
Paint and a brush could be difficult to prove who wrote it, unlike pen and paper. The message was erased, I missed this!

What was the time of death??

The best quote "Science does not lie."

The ME said he would estimate the death to be somewhere around 3 am, iirc.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 03:46 PM
Why the large and small knives? Not sure what size she might need so I'll take 'em both? She could have easily been pushed over the railing. And what was with the t-shirt? Please, someone explain the t-shirt to me.

Rebecca was in the bathroom "near the stairs". Oceanblueeyes posted a footprint of the house in the previous thread that shows the 1/2 bath under the landing in the stairs. Rebecca would have been coming out the door that shows at the bottom of the staircase. She would have been the first person to reach Max.

What was the big deal about pointing out that Ocean was on the landing when the officers arrived? They mentioned that several times.

I did notice that too. I think they really think Ocean (not me lol) may have tripped Maxie and he fell and tried to catch the chandelier to stop his fall.

Poor little boy. What a double tragedy.

IMO

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:46 PM
Why the large and small knives? Not sure what size she might need so I'll take 'em both? She could have easily been pushed over the railing. And what was with the t-shirt? Please, someone explain the t-shirt to me.

Rebecca was in the bathroom "near the stairs". Oceanblueeyes posted a footprint of the house in the previous thread that shows the 1/2 bath under the landing in the stairs. Rebecca would have been coming out the door that shows at the bottom of the staircase. She would have been the first person to reach Max.

What was the big deal about pointing out that Ocean was on the landing when the officers arrived? They mentioned that several times.

Accounts seem to put GS way far away at the time of the fall. And she's wooshed away to South carolina immediately. I wonder if LE ever got to thoroughly interview her about these matters, or if RN was instructed immediately to say that GS wasn't around so as to keep her out of it as much as possible. And what about the other sibling supposedly there?

fran
09-02-2011, 03:46 PM
The voicemail on her cell could have been erased either accidentally or on purpose. She may have been so upset when she received it, she hit '7,' which with my cell phone is all it takes. I've accidentally erased a message once, BEFORE they started making them available to be retrieved, and I didn't mean to. It was the last message someone dear to my heart had left, the day before they unexpectedly passed away. :(

OTOH, she may have purposely erased it out of anguish. Then either decided on her plan and......or, was already in the middle of making preparations for her last deed, and implemented it soon after that.

No drugs, no alcohol, nothing but a dispondent person, alone. She may have felt removing herself from this life was her only option. Very sad indeed.

The message or note or whatever on the door, could be as simple as 'sorry.' Which, IF that were it, would be an indication of possible suicide. IF interpreted that way, would have or COULD have been why JS said from the get to, 'suicide.'

No matter what is said today, there's going to be people that believe this wasn't suicide. I doubt LE is going to investigate until, or IF there's new evidence. It's within the family's right to have an outside investigation. But in that case, it's on their dime. LE has done their duty.

We don't know all the evidence and some won't believe what LE says today. That's everyone's perogative. But the fact is, LE is declaring this young woman's death a suicide.

NO matter what, her family may never believe it. I might be the same myself, if I was in that position. But it won't change LE's statements.

JMHO
fran

Blessings to all involved.

Stella5
09-02-2011, 03:48 PM
There was no text message... the last use of the phone was at 12:50 a.m. by Rebecca calling her voice mail and presumably it was a voice mail left by Jonah in regards to Max taking a turn for the worse. I don't find it odd that she deleted the voicemail, I delete mine immediately because I get so many I want the mailbox always available.

As for the ropes used boat ropes, whether they be docking lines, anchor lines, tow lines, etc... are incredibly flexible and very easy to use and to tie. The newer braided nylon ones, which it appears she used, would be very easy to recover finger prints and DNA from. There was no extension cords used, which seemed to me to be the basis for some to speculate a man had to have been involved in Rebecca's hanging.

I am confident that LE looked at Rebecca's death in every manner possible... I cannot imagine that 3 or 4 different LE agencies are all involved in a conspiracy to let the rich man get away with murder. All the evidence LE presented today... her lone footprints (minus the boot that was identified as LE) on the balcony, her lone fingerprints & DNA on the paint brush, rope, knife, door, doorjamb and bed, black paint on her hands and her torso... all point to only one conclusion, Rebecca took her own life. LE investigated the whereabouts of Jonah & Dina, and it was proven they were at Children's Hospital with Max. Adam was presumably the one to take the polygraph and he passed.

I understand how hard it is to believe and accept that your loved one committed suicide. I've lived it for the past 4 1/2 years, but sadly every 16 minutes someone in this country takes their own life in many different ways. I also totally agree with LE for not releasing the message that was painted on the door. It could be something as simple as I love you and loved Max and am so very sorry... but whatever the message was should remain private unless the family decides to release it. It is also possible to determine who painted a message on a door (or wall)... see the Chris Coleman case. He spray painted messages all over walls in the family home and a handwriting expert determined it was he who wrote the messages.

This case is sad and tragic all the way around, there are no winners in any of this. We have a six year old dead from a horrible accident, and a 32 year old who was distraught and took her own life. It is my hope that both families can grieve privately now that LE has spoken, and have fingers stop pointing in directions that are not deserved. Every person involved was and is a victim of two horrible tragedies and they need prayers and peace now. MOO!

Inobu
09-02-2011, 03:48 PM
The information/finding in an investigations is the same information used in a court of law and must follow the same guidelines.

The information provided here is non conclusive................

No one can confirm that RN knew of MS's condition or retrieved the VM. The voice mail is hearsay.

The suicidal mindset can only be assumed in a 15 - 30 minute time frame.

The note and its painting is inconclusive of the author.

There is nothing ironclad about the points presented today.

...............There is more to this story...........................

Winnts
09-02-2011, 03:48 PM
It is a known fact in the media and pr world that any news you want hidden should come out on a Friday BEFORE a holiday.

Just sayin

SunnieRN
09-02-2011, 03:49 PM
IMHO, I find that the LE involved, used a conversation from January to justify actions in July. The notes on her cell can not be traced to a time entered (doesn't that seem strange to anyone else), so therefore can not prove if it was Rebecca who entered the notes, to my way of thinking.

She talked to her sister, listened to a voice mail and then, without any other phone calls being made or talking to anyone about how she feels, she commits suicide in a fashion that the medical examiner has NEVER seen, with no drugs or alcohol in her system what so ever.

I didn't hear where DS whereabouts were accounted for at the hospital the whole time, but they certainly made sure to say that JS was there, the whole time.

We know the 13 year old cut herself badly enough cleaning up glass, that her leg required stitches, did I hear correctly that this 13 year old was someone close to Rebecca?

Could LE have been any more vague? Could they have been any more unfeeling of Rebeccas families feelings? So sad, so bad if you don't believe OUR investigation, as we know you are going to do your own anyway.

Grrr, there is a lot more I would like to say, but need to walk away, before I get a time out.

Carrington
09-02-2011, 03:49 PM
RZ's family on Dr Drew tonight, per HLN

Pach
09-02-2011, 03:50 PM
To summarize your comments, the evidence that they showed can point to a suicide, but the problem is that the evidence as presented is not convincing enough. In fact, the way it was presented aroused even more questions and suspicions. Definitely, a re-investigation is needed. I wish Borat was around to cross-examine them.
http://cultureby.com/images/various/borat_2.jpg

elementry
09-02-2011, 03:51 PM
The message or note or whatever on the door, could be as simple as 'sorry.' Which, IF that were it, would be an indication of possible suicide. IF interpreted that way, would have or COULD have been why JS said from the get to, 'suicide.'


.


Or maybe: "SORRY; and btw I'm going to leave you with a (very knotty) farewell gesture. Sorry again!"

OK, I'm just being sarcastic out of frustration at that odd presser. Case Closed I guess!

Amalie
09-02-2011, 03:51 PM
Why the need to keep "the note" secret? If they can't definitely say it is a suicide note, they keep refering to it as "a message" why should that be proof of anything????

They do not make suicide notes public, I am not sure if it's a California law or not, but San Diego county does not release them except to the family.

SunnieRN
09-02-2011, 03:53 PM
I just checked with my friend who has the latest droid, techno, can do everything phone, as her husband is an electronics geek. He says all entries have time stamps. He also said they could have had the phone unlocked by the company, if they needed, wanted more information.

I agree, that she wouldn't have erased the message, that there is things behind the scenes, not vital to a suicide theory, that were NOT revealed.

Amalie
09-02-2011, 03:53 PM
Sign On SanDiego's webcast is pathetic ; kind of like their general reporting on this story. Amateur hour over there? I'm sure they just need to get back to pie-baking stories and accounts of charity cocktail parties. Thank God this nuisance has been finally cleared up! (sarc off)

< mod snip >I am in San Diego and I know for a fact that huge amounts of resources, both in l.e. and from the forensic labs were redirected to this case because of the high profile nature.

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 03:54 PM
What was the big deal about pointing out that Ocean was on the landing when the officers arrived? They mentioned that several times.

Spin, spin, spin.

SunnieRN
09-02-2011, 03:56 PM
'Goin 'round in circles, goin' like a bird up in the sky'.

SunnieRN
09-02-2011, 03:58 PM
They do not make suicide notes public, I am not sure if it's a California law or not, but San Diego county does not release them except to the family.

According to law enforcement, this wasn't a suicide note, but a 'message'. Huh????:innocent:

Inobu
09-02-2011, 03:58 PM
They were re-playing the press conference on the web site of the San Diego NBC affiliate, but just stopped. Maybe they will replay it again or make it available on the site.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Officials-Update-Mansion-Mystery-Deaths-129112698.html

ETA: Ok, the repeat of the PC is back on their web site now.

This conference is odd. Its peculiar the way they tiptoe around the evidence, don't fully answer questions and talk about things that don't seem to be really relevant.

I thought the same thing. They often gave examples to situations instead or answering the question.

Inobu

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 03:59 PM
Accounts seem to put GS way far away at the time of the fall. And she's wooshed away to South carolina immediately. I wonder if LE ever got to thoroughly interview her about these matters, or if RN was instructed immediately to say that GS wasn't around so as to keep her out of it as much as possible. And what about the other sibling supposedly there?

elementry - There are many conflicting accounts about that. The one source for GS being there is a college aged neighbor 2 doors down who claimed he spoke with her and she was "wisked away". He has been the only one saying that. I believe the rumor about the other sibling started today from a newspaper article. LE is saying Rebecca's sister was the only other person in the house and she was in the shower. So Rebecca was in the 1/2 bath under the stairs and her sister was upstairs in the shower. Max had to either have been running, kicking a soccer ball or Ocean tripped him. No planking. No pictures. No GS and certainly no ES. They mentioned Ocean on the stairs several times and JS called the kennel on the 16th to make arrangements to have the dog picked up, the same day they said Max succumbed to his injuries.

elementry
09-02-2011, 04:01 PM
< mod snip > I am in San Diego and I know for a fact that huge amounts of resources, both in l.e. and from the forensic labs were redirected to this case because of the high profile nature.

I don't follow. My particular comment you referred to was about signonsandiego's lax press coverage and journalistic investigation of the whole affair. They seem to me to be a lightweight entity, and that broken-up webcast was irksome. Also I at least lost the video once the questioning started, so I couldn't judge the facial and gestural responses from LE (not that these would prove anything one way or the other.) Maybe it was just my browser not processing the video at that point.

Inobu
09-02-2011, 04:02 PM
You guys enjoy your Labor Day weekend, be safe and may you find God's Blessings.

Inobu


Don't fret as there is one famous quote that you can have comfort in.
"Vengeance is mine".saith the Lord.

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 04:03 PM
Questions:

How is it that RZ sustained bruising from the "plants"? If a 100-pound body fell on that cactus, it should break in some places, with scattered piece(s) on the lawn.

What kind of DNA was on the knife?

Why are the search warrants and 911 calls sealed? (Presumably someone things that with enough $$$, they can keep them buried in legal wrangling?

Was she or was she not hogtied?

What if any computer records were seized and searched?

Why was her body left on view to the public for six or so hours?

Why was AS staying the guest house?

When was the chandelier rehung?

What is a "phone journal"?

What kind of phone did RZ have?

Those are just a few. Good questions asked at press conference given the limited amount of time media had with LE.

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 04:04 PM
They do not make suicide notes public, I am not sure if it's a California law or not, but San Diego county does not release them except to the family.

I understand and fully agree and respect that Amalie. I don't think they should release suicide notes either. However, they repeatedly refered to this as a "message" and refused to call it a suicide note. So why should they be unwilling to release the contents of it, especially when her family is disputing the note to begin with? It just seems strange to me, given the depth and amount of information they gave out, to refuse to release that.

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 04:05 PM
Nothing at all in her system. And no signs of sexual abuse.

I listened to entire conference and don't recall anything being said about sexual activity of any kind. Did I miss it?

Amalie
09-02-2011, 04:06 PM
According to law enforcement, this wasn't a suicide note, but a 'message'. Huh????:innocent:

Whatever it is, it cannot be disclosed to the public because of the suicide ruling. Perhaps the family will reveal what was in it when they give interviews to the media, but L.E. can't.

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 04:06 PM
Convenient that a police officer stood on the balcony exactly behind where RZ allegedly threw herself over the railing. Any prints were obscured by the boot print. Why would he need to walk out there and look over?????

Did he not know that he was contaminating a crime scene???

Amalie
09-02-2011, 04:07 PM
I listened to entire conference and don't recall anything being said about sexual activity of any kind. Did I miss it?

They said there was no evidence of sexual assalt.

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 04:07 PM
I thought the same thing. They often gave examples to situations instead or answering the question.

Inobu

And who calls a bathroom a "restroom"...as if it was at a public park or something.

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 04:08 PM
It's a long Labor Day weekend. They wanted to wrap this thing up and be finished with it, with the least collateral damage as possible. Pretend it's not a sloppy investigation and let's get on to election season and whatnot? When's the sheriff up for re-elect? In the meantime, break out the beers at the SDPD picnic. That lead investigator looks like he likes his beer, judging from that gut.

You may not agree with the conclusion but that does not mean it was a "sloppy" investigation. Multiple agencies were involved along with a large expenditure of resources imo. No evidence whatsoever that Rebecca's death was a homicide.

elementry
09-02-2011, 04:09 PM
I listened to entire conference and don't recall anything being said about sexual activity of any kind. Did I miss it?

Pretty sure I heard that at one point, unless I'm mistaken.

Winnts
09-02-2011, 04:09 PM
It seems to me that at this press conference more concern was given to the boyfriends family (johah's) rather than the dead victim's family (rebecca's).

The overall concern in the community was about a dead woman with her hands and feet bound, hanging from a balcony, not about shielding the boyfriend and his family from a horrible loss of a child.

time
09-02-2011, 04:11 PM
No, not buying it. I don't even know where to start!

The biggest thing that sticks out is those complicated, strange knots on Rebecca's arms. I just can't see her making those. Maybe I missed something but did they even show putting knots on her feet in the simulation? Let alone then walking to the balcony?

Why would they discount a theory she could have been forced to do this or that part of it was done with a perp having gloves on?

Too many questions they will not answer.

Whose word were they taking for the alarm system being 'regularly not used'?

Won't even say who called at 12:50 am? I can't see her erasing the message. And, the detective casually claims he didn't know what time her sister called... huh?

Not her bedroom ... it looked like a girls bedroom to me. Would you really paint a 'message' on the outside of the door? Since it wasn't her bedroom, why would she have been naked already. I don't believe she committed suicide, but I doubly don't believe she took her clothes off to commit suicide, esp in a room that wasn't where she slept.

Rebecca supposedly heaved herself over the balcony falling 9 feet. Wouldn't that make a lot of noise and her vertebrae were not broken?

Like someone said... what is up with a shirt around her neck that served no purpose?

Naked suicide study: Lame attempt to justify this as suicide. There is as much in that study that contradicts it as support is and as I said before the author says it is exploratory and based on anecdotal information.

Didn't explain the strange configuration of her legs and arms as far as I heard, but then again I don't think reporters asked.

Adam broke the leg on the table while pulling it? Then how did he stand on it?

Rebecca never went into the hospital, won't comment or don't even know if there was friction. WHY? Surely they know.

Didn't really answer question about Jonah telling Rebecca's sister so soon it was a suicide. If it was a murder investigation this would not have been a 'duh' or 'I don't know' moment.

Doesn't know how many words were on the door but it was short?

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 04:12 PM
Why use old photo of staircase that has been on the net for years as part of LS presentation?

Why seems so off about the investigation is that it TRIED THE VICTIM.

10-6Mom
09-02-2011, 04:12 PM
Wouldn't she be the one to erase it though? It makes logical sense she heard it first. If it was from Jonah then wouldnt that show up on his cell phone records?

The main thing is they know for sure where Jonah and Dina were during those hours and they have completely ruled out Adam as having anything to do with this. Maybe he was one of the ones who took a poly.

IMO

Someone help me with this....the volume of some parts of the PC was poor. I thought toward the end the SDSO supervisor said "The type of phone she had we were not able to retrieve it, it is a very new phone" Did anyone else hear this and can you confirm they were talking about RN's phone.

elementry
09-02-2011, 04:13 PM
You may not agree with the conclusion but that does not mean it was a "sloppy" investigation. Multiple agencies were involved along with a large expenditure of resources imo. No evidence whatsoever that Rebecca's death was a homicide.

Sloppy, and "not thorough" are 2 different things. I'd like to hear from LE exactly what kind of forays into a possible murder theory were investigated. From the beginning, LE was floating the suicide theory, refusing to even call her significant other a person of interest. The significant other is ALWAYS a person of interest until things become clearer, but not in this case. Hinky, as they say.......

I could be wrong though, that I freely admit. It's more like devil's advocacy at this point.

fran
09-02-2011, 04:14 PM
And who calls a bathroom a "restroom"...as if it was at a public park or something.

:innocent:

SunnieRN
09-02-2011, 04:15 PM
Wouldn't she be the one to erase it though? It makes logical sense she heard it first. If it was from Jonah then wouldnt that show up on his cell phone records?

The main thing is they know for sure where Jonah and Dina were during those hours and they have completely ruled out Adam as having anything to do with this. Maybe he was one of the ones who took a poly.

IMO

I didn't hear that DS was accounted for. How did I miss that one?

katydid23
09-02-2011, 04:16 PM
The information/finding in an investigations is the same information used in a court of law and must follow the same guidelines.

The information provided here is non conclusive................

No one can confirm that RN knew of MS's condition or retrieved the VM. The voice mail is hearsay.

The suicidal mindset can only be assumed in a 15 - 30 minute time frame.

The note and its painting is inconclusive of the author.

There is nothing ironclad about the points presented today.

...............There is more to this story...........................

Why wouldn't she get the voice mail? I am assuming she was home and waiting anxiously for any news about Max. So why do you think she never listened to it?

All it takes is 30 minutes of the suicidal mindset to make the decision if one is distraught enough. I think RN was devastated and she felt like she was partially responsible for Max's death, and she felt like she just lost everything that was important to her.

There must have been an investigation of the note and the painting to see if it looked like her work. Of course it is not ironclad, nothing usually is, but it seems like the logical conclusion to me.

CalElliot
09-02-2011, 04:16 PM
Someone help me with this....the volume of some parts of the PC was poor. I thought toward the end the SDSO supervisor said "The type of phone she had we were not able to retrieve it, it is a very new phone" Did anyone else hear this and can you confirm they were talking about RN's phone.

That is my recollection.

SunnieRN
09-02-2011, 04:19 PM
No, not buying it. I don't even know where to start!

The biggest thing that sticks out is those complicated, strange knots on Rebecca's arms. I just can't see her making those. Maybe I missed something but did they even show putting knots on her feet in the simulation? Let alone then walking to the balcony?

Why would they discount a theory she could have been forced to do this or that part of it was done with a perp having gloves on?

Too many questions they will not answer.

Whose word were they taking for the alarm system being 'regularly not used'?

Won't even say who called at 12:50 am? I can't see her erasing the message. And, the detective casually claims he didn't know what time her sister called... huh?

Not her bedroom ... it looked like a girls bedroom to me. Would you really paint a 'message' on the outside of the door? Since it wasn't her bedroom, why would she have been naked already. I don't believe she committed suicide, but I doubly don't believe she took her clothes off to commit suicide, esp in a room that wasn't where she slept.

Rebecca supposedly heaved herself over the balcony falling 9 feet. Wouldn't that make a lot of noise and her vertebrae were not broken?

Like someone said... what is up with a shirt around her neck that served no purpose?

Naked suicide study: Lame attempt to justify this as suicide. There is as much in that study that contradicts it as support is and as I said before the author says it is exploratory and based on anecdotal information.

Didn't explain the strange configuration of her legs and arms as far as I heard, but then again I don't think reporters asked.

Adam broke the leg on the table while pulling it? Then how did he stand on it?

Rebecca never went into the hospital, won't comment or don't even know if there was friction. WHY? Surely they know.

Didn't really answer question about Jonah telling Rebecca's sister so soon it was a suicide. If it was a murder investigation this would not have been a 'duh' or 'I don't know' moment.

Doesn't know how many words were on the door but it was short?

And that is only the tip of the iceberg. To me, this was more about what they wouldn't or couldn't say. I would think that the evidence presented, would not make it through a court of law, without reasonable doubt.

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 04:20 PM
It seems to me that at this press conference more concern was given to the boyfriends family (johah's) rather than the dead victim's family (rebecca's).

The overall concern in the community was about a dead woman with her hands and feet bound, hanging from a balcony, not about shielding the boyfriend and his family from a horrible loss of a child.

There were two death investigations and the death of a small child is a horrible loss no matter the cause. I think LE was being sensitive to both families.

Winnts
09-02-2011, 04:21 PM
All it takes is 30 minutes of the suicidal mindset to make the decision if one is distraught enough. I think RN was devastated and she felt like she was partially responsible for Max's death, and she felt like she just lost everything that was important to her.


Delete message of unknown origin.
Run around the house and garage (naked?) to try and find something long enough to self bind your hands, feet and then hang yourself from a balcony.

Track down some black paint and a paintbrush to paint a message on a wall.

Then try and come up with some way to bind your hands and feet yourself, all while having a noose around your neck.

I'm just not buying it. It seems illogical to me, not logical.


Logical in a suicidal distraught mindset is overdosing on pills, gun to head, slitting wrists.
This is just bizarre for a sudden suicidal thought due to a message you received on a cell phone which we aren't even sure what it even said.

fran
09-02-2011, 04:22 PM
Someone help me with this....the volume of some parts of the PC was poor. I thought toward the end the SDSO supervisor said "The type of phone she had we were not able to retrieve it, it is a very new phone" Did anyone else hear this and can you confirm they were talking about RN's phone.

It's possible that they didn't know HOW to retrieve it, BECAUSE it was 'new' and they hadn't been instructed on that particular phone type.

We have a case recently here on Websleuths, during the trial it was released that LE accidentally erased a victim's phone. It wasn't on PURPOSE, as the def tried to imply, but, well, incompetence the LE continued to TRY to retrieve it, thus activating some type of fail-safe thing on the mechanism, that erased the data.

In this case, it's possible, because they saw the senders outgoing message, they didn't feel it necessary to go to the engineers of the manufacturer. I'm sure IF that's the case, the victim's family will do so during their investigation.

FWIW, the case I spoke of, I THINK the perp erased the phone, but LE THINKS they did when there probably WAS NOT anything to be erased because it already had been. jmho

JMHO
fran

katydid23
09-02-2011, 04:22 PM
Sloppy, and "not thorough" are 2 different things. I'd like to hear from LE exactly what kind of forays into a possible murder theory were investigated. From the beginning, LE was floating the suicide theory, refusing to even call her significant other a person of interest. The significant other is ALWAYS a person of interest until things become clearer, but not in this case. Hinky, as they say.......

I could be wrong though, that I freely admit. It's more like devil's advocacy at this point.

But, in my experience, they rarely call the spouse a person of interest, publicly,even if they are one. They avoid doing so for strategic and legal reasons.

I am sure they looked closely at the homicide question. They poly'ed the brother, looked at all of the hospital tapes to verify that JS was there throughout the key times, interviewed friends and family members.

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 04:22 PM
I find it interesting that only Rebecca's fingerprints were found on the two knives (presumably kitchen knives, based on their appearance). Did no other adult in the household ever use/touch these knives? Was Rebecca the only person to ever use the kitchen utensils?

Stella5
09-02-2011, 04:23 PM
I didn't hear that DS was accounted for. How did I miss that one?

It was a question asked by a reporter as to whether LE knew of DS's whereabouts... they did... she was always at Children's with Max.

Amalie
09-02-2011, 04:26 PM
I don't follow. My particular comment you referred to was about signonsandiego's lax press coverage and journalistic investigation of the whole affair. They seem to me to be a lightweight entity, and that broken-up webcast was irksome. Also I at least lost the video once the questioning started, so I couldn't judge the facial and gestural responses from LE (not that these would prove anything one way or the other.) Maybe it was just my browser not processing the video at that point.

Sorry, I meant to quote someone else who was criticizing the investigation.

However, how hard I tried, I could not find coverage on the frivalties that you mentioned as being on Sign On San Diego's home page. I am not sure if you are aware that this is the newspaper and is not always updated as quickly as a TV station. As far the webcast, I watched it from the CBS site and had no problems. I remember having many problems such as you described when watching the Anthony case from various media outlets in Orlando, so interruptions must be common with webcasts

SunnieRN
09-02-2011, 04:28 PM
Delete message of unknown origin.
Run around the house and garage (naked?) to try and find something long enough to self bind your hands, feet and then hang yourself from a balcony.

Track down some black paint and a paintbrush to paint a message on a wall.

Then try and come up with some way to bind your hands and feet yourself, all while having a noose around your neck.

I'm just not buying it. It seems illogical to me, not logical.


Logical in a suicidal distraught mindset is overdosing on pills, gun to head, slitting wrists.
This is just bizarre for a sudden suicidal thought due to a message you received on a cell phone which we aren't even sure what it even said.


The biggest question I have about the bindings, is WHY tie the feet? I mean, I can understand the hands, to prevent you from undoing the action, after you throw yourself over a balcony. But why tie your feet and have to hop to the balcony first? Doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Also, why paint/deface a door in the house. If you are 'sorry', you just gave more of a 'problem' to someone you care about. Nothing adds up.

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 04:28 PM
Sloppy, and "not thorough" are 2 different things. I'd like to hear from LE exactly what kind of forays into a possible murder theory were investigated. From the beginning, LE was floating the suicide theory, refusing to even call her significant other a person of interest. The significant other is ALWAYS a person of interest until things become clearer, but not in this case. Hinky, as they say.......

I could be wrong though, that I freely admit. It's more like devil's advocacy at this point.

I responded to the term you used which was "sloppy." No indication the investigation wasn't thorough. I don't find anything hinky about it. LE spent a lot of time and money investigating these deaths imo. From the beginning, LE did float the possibility of suicide. Maybe because there was no evidence another human being was on that balcony with Rebecca or handled the rope?

elementry
09-02-2011, 04:30 PM
Sorry, I meant to quote someone else who was criticizing the investigation.

However, how hard I tried, I could not find coverage on the frivalties that you mentioned as being on Sign On San Diego's home page. I am not sure if you are aware that this is the newspaper and is not always updated as quickly as a TV station. As far the webcast, I watched it from the CBS site and had no problems. I remember having many problems such as you described when watching the Anthony case from various media outlets in Orlando, so interruptions must be common with webcasts

Thanks for the clarification. Although, you still might have been referring to one of my other complaints in the heat of the moment regarding LE. It's true, I was being a bit ruthless regarding LE; or skeptical at least.

time
09-02-2011, 04:31 PM
They made a big mistake by calling this a suicide instead of saying it is undetermined. It was clear at the end of the presser that they 'knew' this was not rock solid. The forensics or the presentation of them was weak at best. They gave us zero indication they considered any homicide theories.

katydid23
09-02-2011, 04:31 PM
Delete message of unknown origin.
Run around the house and garage (naked?) to try and find something long enough to self bind your hands, feet and then hang yourself from a balcony.

Track down some black paint and a paintbrush to paint a message on a wall.

Then try and come up with some way to bind your hands and feet yourself, all while having a noose around your neck.

I'm just not buying it. It seems illogical to me, not logical.


Logical in a suicidal distraught mindset is overdosing on pills, gun to head, slitting wrists.
This is just bizarre for a sudden suicidal thought due to a message you received on a cell phone which we aren't even sure what it even said.

The way you are describing it makes it sound illogical. But it might not have been that chaotic. Maybe she never ran naked around the house at all. Maybe she knew exactly where the rope was. I know where our rope is. I just used it this past weekend.

Maybe she knew exactly where the paint and brush was too. There were kids in the house that summer. I bet they used paint and brushes and she knew exactly where it was. So maybe she did not need to chaotically run naked through the house at all. Maybe she set out in a calm and sorrowful manner and retrieved her necessary materials, while wearing a robe.

People posted here in earlier threads some examples of people hanging themselves in the nude, and of people tying their own hands before they jumped. And I talked to a retired Los Angeles ME a couple of weeks ago about this case. He said it very well could be a suicide and he had seen bizarre hangings like this before in his long career. When people are distraught enough to actually kill themselves then they are not thinking rationally. You cannot judge their actions in the same manner as a rational adult.

ETA: also, the deleting of the message makes it seem even more like a suicide to me. She would have been devastated to hear about Max's imminent death. And maybe JS even said something angry about her not watching him carefully enough.

She was sitting him, hoping for the best. then she hears the worst and maybe even was blamed by her boyfriend. She knew then that her life was changed forever.

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 04:33 PM
They do not make suicide notes public, I am not sure if it's a California law or not, but San Diego county does not release them except to the family.

The writing on the door was characterized as a "message", and when pressed by reporters as to whether or not it was a suicide note, the answer seemed to be "no".

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 04:34 PM
She had to bind her feet before she threw herself over the balcony. That would necessitate hopping over to the balcony. How, how, how did she jump from the bed to the balcony railing in one large hop? And land right AT the railing in perfect position? Shouldn't there have been at least one more set of prints on the balcony, getting her over there??

Winnts
09-02-2011, 04:34 PM
There were two death investigations and the death of a small child is a horrible loss no matter the cause. I think LE was being sensitive to both families.

I'm not understating the loss of a child at all. It was a horrible, horrible tragedy.

That being said a dead woman possibly murdered is what this investigation and this press conference was about. Blurring the 2 seperate incidents or not releasing information out of concern for the childs family rather than the victim's family and community who want answers amazes me. I saw no sensitivity at all in regard to Rebecca or her family at all.

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 04:37 PM
Delete message of unknown origin.
Run around the house and garage (naked?) to try and find something long enough to self bind your hands, feet and then hang yourself from a balcony.

Track down some black paint and a paintbrush to paint a message on a wall.

Then try and come up with some way to bind your hands and feet yourself, all while having a noose around your neck.

I'm just not buying it. It seems illogical to me, not logical.


Logical in a suicidal distraught mindset is overdosing on pills, gun to head, slitting wrists.
This is just bizarre for a sudden suicidal thought due to a message you received on a cell phone which we aren't even sure what it even said.

Why are you assuming the deleted message was of unknown origin or that she ran around the house naked? Wouldn't she recognize the phone number?
What does it matter whether she was naked or not when she gathered the items?

imo, there is nothing logical about suicide. If she had put a gun to her head, there would still be those who insist it was homicide.

Stella5
09-02-2011, 04:37 PM
I find it interesting that only Rebecca's fingerprints were found on the two knives (presumably kitchen knives, based on their appearance). Did no other adult in the household ever use/touch these knives? Was Rebecca the only person to ever use the kitchen utensils?

Why is that odd? High heat destroys DNA, so if it was used by say Jonah previously and run through the dishwasher all DNA would be gone. So she took the kitchen knife out of the dishwasher, or she was the one to unload the dishwasher previously and took the knife out of a knife block or drawer before using it on the rope only her DNA would be on it.

colette
09-02-2011, 04:38 PM
Sgt. Nemeth said there were indications that Zahau was unhappy in the months prior to her death.

One witness told investigators that in January, Zahau had lost weight, was stressed, not sleeping well and had stopped exercising, which was unusual for the petite woman described as a “health nut.”

A journal of writings on Zahau’s cellphone showed she was struggling, Nemeth said. Authorities did not elaborate on the problems.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/02/coronado-mansion-death-ruled-suicide/

Also the hand binding video at link

elementry
09-02-2011, 04:39 PM
I responded to the term you used which was "sloppy." No indication the investigation wasn't thorough. I don't find anything hinky about it. LE spent a lot of time and money investigating these deaths imo. From the beginning, LE did float the possibility of suicide. Maybe because there was no evidence another human being was on that balcony with Rebecca or handled the rope?

So why not clarify what efforts were made regarding the possible murder option, at least to assuage suspicions and doubts the public or the Zahau family might have? I would guess that JS's high powered legal team had a sword over LE's head that they had better not sully up his reputation in any way, or else get ready for the lawsuits; and that LE and certain political forces might have been sufficiently cowed so that they never in the entire course of events over the last 2 months raised the slightest spectre about other scenarios than the suicide scenario. And to throw the suicide scenario out there in the public discourse so immediately.......wasn't that hurtful to the Zahau's, considering the investigation was merely a few hours old when Curran raised it? Then the well-timed leak reiterating this scenario, and let it percolate down through the media for a week or so before finally delivering their "conclusion" today. And do you think Sitrick and Co. have just been sitting on their hands this whole time. I'd love to know their fee and also their particular services rendered for JS.

x_files
09-02-2011, 04:39 PM
2/3 of suicide victims do not leave notes.

I do know females hang themselves naked and bind their hands and feet. It happened to my daughter's friend three weeks before Rebecca's death.

IMO

Is it to prevent saving themselves?
I wish a profiler would weigh on this case.
I never knew about suicide victim's binding their hands and legs before hanging themselves until this case. It just shows my ignorance on the topic.

10-6Mom
09-02-2011, 04:40 PM
According to law enforcement, this wasn't a suicide note, but a 'message'. Huh????:innocent:

Good point if not a suicide note then why not release it??? Also, depending what was written on the door and who wrote it, the message could be left up to interpretation!

Stella5
09-02-2011, 04:42 PM
She had to bind her feet before she threw herself over the balcony. That would necessitate hopping over to the balcony. How, how, how did she jump from the bed to the balcony railing in one large hop? And land right AT the railing in perfect position? Shouldn't there have been at least one more set of prints on the balcony, getting her over there??

I thought there were at least two sets of footprints on the balcony?! One footprint seemed to point sideways to the railing and one near the railing where her toes slid backwards indicating she went over the balcony head first.

Winnts
09-02-2011, 04:43 PM
Why are you assuming the deleted message was of unknown origin or that she ran around the house naked? Wouldn't she recognize the phone number?
What does it matter whether she was naked or not when she gathered the items?

imo, there is nothing logical about suicide. If she had put a gun to her head, there would still be those who insist it was homicide.

CONTENT was unknown because it was 'erased'. The police are assuming its contents based on someone with a possible motive.

Naked because she had to take off her clothes sometime before this short time she to kill herself.

That method takes an awful lot of planning in a distraught state of mind of a 15-30 minute suicidal mindset.

I'd like to see how she hopped over a railing with a feet and hands bound i forgot to add that.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is a suicidal mindset is fast. With all of these bizarre events there were just much more quicker ways to end your life if your that distraught.

time
09-02-2011, 04:44 PM
Wonder, why did Rebecca not answer the phone per the voicemail left. When was the voicemail left for her? Why would anyone leave just a voicemail about something so dire. Typically people call and say I need to talk, give me a call back.

We have no evidence of what was in any voicemail or if it was even Rebecca who listened to it. Again, weren't LE just told what was in that voicemail?


Did they say it was left at 12:50? Or that she retrieved it at 12:50?

How could they not have been keenly aware of what time her sister called?

SunnieRN
09-02-2011, 04:44 PM
The way you are describing it makes it sound illogical. But it might not have been that chaotic. Maybe she never ran naked around the house at all. Maybe she knew exactly where the rope was. I know where our rope is. I just used it this past weekend.

Maybe she knew exactly where the paint and brush was too. There were kids in the house that summer. I bet they used paint and brushes and she knew exactly where it was. So maybe she did not need to chaotically run naked through the house at all. Maybe she set out in a calm and sorrowful manner and retrieved her necessary materials, while wearing a robe.

People posted here in earlier threads some examples of people hanging themselves in the nude, and of people tying their own hands before they jumped. And I talked to a retired Los Angeles ME a couple of weeks ago about this case. He said it very well could be a suicide and he had seen bizarre hangings like this before in his long career. When people are distraught enough to actually kill themselves then they are not thinking rationally. You cannot judge their actions in the same manner as a rational adult.

ETA: also, the deleting of the message makes it seem even more like a suicide to me. She would have been devastated to hear about Max's imminent death. And maybe JS even said something angry about her not watching him carefully enough.

She was sitting him, hoping for the best. then she hears the worst and maybe even was blamed by her boyfriend. She knew then that her life was changed forever.


Maybe because her feet were also bound and that she committed suicide OUTSIDE in the RAW! Remember, the ME stated he had NEVER seen ANOTHER case LIKE this one. Pretty strong message imho.

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 04:45 PM
I'm not understating the loss of a child at all. It was a horrible, horrible tragedy.

That being said a dead woman possibly murdered is what this investigation and this press conference was about. Blurring the 2 seperate incidents or not releasing information out of concern for the childs family rather than the victim's family and community who want answers amazes me. I saw no sensitivity at all in regard to Rebecca or her family at all.


What sensitivity were you expecting? The press conference would have never been held if it were not for the death of the child and the media linking the two deaths imo.

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 04:45 PM
Why did Rebecca never visit the hospital? She cared for Max, why would she not go to the hospital, especially given that she told TG that was why she wanted to board the dog? LE specifically said she never visited the hospital.

If my bf's brother were in the guest house and my future stepson in the hospital in grave condition, I would not be running around the house naked. Just me. Rebecca supposedly met her ex at a Bible college. Doesn't seem like the exhibitionist type.

elementry
09-02-2011, 04:46 PM
The writing on the door was characterized as a "message", and when pressed by reporters as to whether or not it was a suicide note, the answer seemed to be "no".

But yet they are treating it as if it was a suicide note. An odd paradox there as far as LE policy. It's like an errant tautology in their thinking: we decided its a suicide therefore we are treating the "message" as if its a suicide note but we can't really say its a suicide note but you can't see it because we don't release suicide notes, for the sake of the victim's family.

it's reasoning back from conclusions and assigning a meaning to the "message" which they can't really verify, then acting as if it is supporting evidence.

x_files
09-02-2011, 04:48 PM
Why withhold the message painted on the door??

Where did the paint and paintbrush come from?

Wouldn't it have been more logical for a distraught person to seek out a pen and paper rather than a tube of black paint and paint brush?

Unless she was a very dramatic or artistic type. I have known artists to do some wacky stuff when drunk, high or depressed. Does this match her personality though?

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 04:48 PM
Questions:

How is it that RZ sustained bruising from the "plants"? If a 100-pound body fell on that cactus, it should break in some places, with scattered piece(s) on the lawn.

What kind of DNA was on the knife?

Why are the search warrants and 911 calls sealed? (Presumably someone things that with enough $$$, they can keep them buried in legal wrangling?

Was she or was she not hogtied?

What if any computer records were seized and searched?

Why was her body left on view to the public for six or so hours?

Why was AS staying the guest house?

When was the chandelier rehung?

What is a "phone journal"?

What kind of phone did RZ have?

Those are just a few. Good questions asked at press conference given the limited amount of time media had with LE.

bbm

All excellent points, Cal!

I have questions about the ones I bolded.

1. The shrubbery: how is it that when Rebecca reportedly threw herself over the railing, her body sustained noticeable bruising by coming into contact with the shrubs below the balcony? I'm an avid hiker and oftentimes hike on very steep slopes. There have been times that I've lost my footing and have slipped & fallen against the bushes growing along the trail - and have not been bruised (I bruise very easily).

2. Did LE search any household computer(s)?

3. Regarding the chandelier: I seem to remember media images that were taken after Max's fall that showed LE on the stairwell taking photos of the chandelier - and the chandelier was still hanging. Does anyone else remember that?

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 04:49 PM
CONTENT was unknown because it was 'erased'. The police are assuming its contents based on someone with a possible motive.

Naked because she had to take off her clothes sometime before this short time she to kill herself.

That method takes an awful lot of planning in a distraught state of mind of a 15-30 minute suicidal mindset.

I'd like to see how she hopped over a railing with a feet and hands bound i forgot to add that.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is a suicidal mindset is fast. With all of these bizarre events there were just much more quicker ways to end your life if your that distraught.

I don't know how "fast" a suicidal mindset really is or how it even works so I'll not judge Rebecca's choices.

SunnieRN
09-02-2011, 04:49 PM
Why is that odd? High heat destroys DNA, so if it was used by say Jonah previously and run through the dishwasher all DNA would be gone. So she took the kitchen knife out of the dishwasher, or she was the one to unload the dishwasher previously and took the knife out of a knife block or drawer before using it on the rope only her DNA would be on it.

Someone had to take them out of the dishwasher and put it in the block or drawer. I am not sure that Rebecca was chief cook and bottle washer. Both knives had ONLY her ptints. Huh?

Bonepile
09-02-2011, 04:49 PM
Let us not forget ...

Rebecca M. Zahau
1979 - 2011

"We love you, Rebecca so much! Your smile, your joy, your liveliness, your eagerness, your creativity, your love, and your strength will be in our hearts forever. Every sunrise, every sunset, the beauty of every season will remind us of you and your beauty. Now you are in heaven with your Lord among the beautiful, the glorious, and among the angels where you belong. You look down upon us with your smile as beautiful as always and say “I am with my Lord where there is no pain, no tears, no more sadness nor crying, and where there is no more death.”" ... Mary Zahau-Loehner

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 04:50 PM
I thought there were at least two sets of footprints on the balcony?! One footprint seemed to point sideways to the railing and one near the railing where her toes slid backwards indicating she went over the balcony head first.

There were! The print you are thinking of was a POLICE OFFICER's boot. Did he not know he needed to preserve that scene? Could that have been obscuring another set of different prints behind RN's bare prints at the rail? How did RN get to the railing with her feet tied together in one hop?

elementry
09-02-2011, 04:51 PM
Wonder, why did Rebecca not answer the phone per the voicemail left. When was the voicemail left for her? Why would anyone leave just a voicemail about something so dire. Typically people call and say I need to talk, give me a call back.

We have no evidence of what was in any voicemail or if it was even Rebecca who listened to it. Again, weren't LE just told what was in that voicemail?


Did they say it was left at 12:50? Or that she retrieved it at 12:50?

How could they not have been keenly aware of what time her sister called?

Maybe the music was on loud and she didn't hear the call. Did LE explain or explain away the loud music reports btw?

They are going on Jonah's hearsay explanation of the phone call (actually, "someone close to her", is how LE referred to the message leaver; they resfused to identify the person explicitly. I assume it was Jonah and not Dina, but who knows.

Stella5
09-02-2011, 04:52 PM
When people are distraught enough to actually kill themselves then they are not thinking rationally. You cannot judge their actions in the same manner as a rational adult.

Snipped by me... I totally agree!

For those that were here early in this case you all know my brother killed himself. What you don't know is how he did it. He was alone in a cruddy motel in Chicago's northside by Wrigley (he loved the Cubs). He was found totally nude with his clothes neatly folded and placed on the bed with a post it with our phone numbers and just a ripped out advertisement for "Dick's Last Resort" on top of his clothes. LE, the Coroner, the Medical Examiner... EVERYBODY... could not figure out how he managed to do what he did. He cut his Brachial Artery in not one, but BOTH arms near the bend in his arm. He should have passed out almost immediately cutting one, however he managed to do both which the ME had never seen, ever. He bled out in less than a minute, he was that determined to end his pain. At first they didn't know if it was suicide or homicide, but in the end all the evidence pointed to suicide.

Suicidal people are NOT rational. They are not thinking of those that love them and how what they are about to do will look to everyone else they are leaving behind. All they want is a way out of their pain.

So there you have it... strange suicides happen, and they happen a LOT more than anyone thinks as they are generally not reported by the media.

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 04:52 PM
Why did Rebecca never visit the hospital? She cared for Max, why would she not go to the hospital, especially given that she told TG that was why she wanted to board the dog? LE specifically said she never visited the hospital.

If my bf's brother were in the guest house and my future stepson in the hospital in grave condition, I would not be running around the house naked. Just me. Rebecca supposedly met her ex at a Bible college. Doesn't seem like the exhibitionist type.

Why would Rebecca visit the hospital? I wouldn't want her there if it were my child dying. I do not understand why it matters whether she was naked in the house. She was there alone.

elementry
09-02-2011, 04:56 PM
Why would Rebecca visit the hospital? I wouldn't want her there if it were my child dying. I do not understand why it matters whether she was naked in the house. She was there alone.

As someone mentioned, the brother Adam was on the grounds at the very least.

time
09-02-2011, 04:57 PM
She had to bind her feet before she threw herself over the balcony. That would necessitate hopping over to the balcony. How, how, how did she jump from the bed to the balcony railing in one large hop? And land right AT the railing in perfect position? Shouldn't there have been at least one more set of prints on the balcony, getting her over there??


If your feet were bound and you walked that distance, there should be some trail that indicated just shuffling/waddling prints. All I heard was about a couple of distinct prints near the edge of the balcony. Did I miss something? If not, how did she go clear across the porch without leaving a continuous trail?

Stella5
09-02-2011, 04:59 PM
Jonah released a statement this afternoon...

http://media.nbcsandiego.com/documents/shacknai+statement+9+2+11.pdf

"While the investigation is over, the emptiness and sadness in our hearts will remain forever.**
Max was an extraordinarily loving, happy, talented, and special little boy.. He brought joy to
everyone who knew him, and we will miss him desperately.**Rebecca too was a wonderful and
unique person who will always have a special place in my heart."

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 04:59 PM
As someone mentioned, the brother Adam was on the grounds at the very least.

He wasn't IN the house nor has it been said that he was "on the grounds." I'm betting he was inside another building.

elementry
09-02-2011, 05:01 PM
If your feet were bound and you walked that distance, there should be some trail that indicated just shuffling/waddling prints. All I heard was about a couple of distinct prints near the edge of the balcony. Did I miss something? If not, how did she go clear across the porch without leaving a continuous trail?

Maybe the intrepid police officer trudged all over the carpet path on the way to stepping onto the balcony and compromising the crime scene from the get-go. Was he the one who closed the window too? I believe LE stated that the window was open when first viewed. It was closed by the time the helicopter cameras caught the scene - which was before the investigation had gotten under way.

IWannaKnow
09-02-2011, 05:02 PM
Why would Rebecca visit the hospital? I wouldn't want her there if it were my child dying. I do not understand why it matters whether she was naked in the house. She was there alone.

Exactly. Good enough to babysit though.

Betty P
09-02-2011, 05:03 PM
Statements from Press Conference as well as Power Point presentations, etc. are up at the web site of the Sheriff's Dept.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

sdcali
09-02-2011, 05:04 PM
I understand and fully agree and respect that Amalie. I don't think they should release suicide notes either. However, they repeatedly refered to this as a "message" and refused to call it a suicide note. So why should they be unwilling to release the contents of it, especially when her family is disputing the note to begin with? It just seems strange to me, given the depth and amount of information they gave out, to refuse to release that.

Maybe her family will reveal what the message said.

elementry
09-02-2011, 05:05 PM
He wasn't IN the house nor has it been said that he was "on the grounds." I'm betting he was inside another building.

Why would you assume he was never in the house - or did not have access to it. After all, it is his brother's house, and he was an invited, requested guest of his brother to lend support in time of need. And he would have to be on the grounds to get in and out of the guest house; or was he not allowed out of the guest house?

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 05:06 PM
Exactly. Good enough to babysit though.

I don't know of any ICU that considers a babysitter the same status as parent.

justice be served
09-02-2011, 05:06 PM
I just can't get past one big picture item in today's LE conclusion that is way off base IMO:

If Rebecca felt responsibility and remorse for Max's death as LE has theorized so she killed herself, then why would she do so in such a horrendous fashion thereby adding to Jonah's pain - a pain she felt she had caused? Thus, her method of suicide contradicts the theory of why she committed suicide. I'm sorry but that simply doesn't jive!!!

Stella5
09-02-2011, 05:06 PM
There were! The print you are thinking of was a POLICE OFFICER's boot. Did he not know he needed to preserve that scene? Could that have been obscuring another set of different prints behind RN's bare prints at the rail? How did RN get to the railing with her feet tied together in one hop?

No, I know an LE boot print was there but that's not what I meant. I'm talking about bare foot prints. I recall LE addressing two different sets of bare footprints and one of them near the railing was indicative of her toes sliding indicating she went over the railing head first. The other set of prints were clear with no smudging/slipping. Wish the media would post them... or maybe they'll be addressed later on JVM or NG or something.

sdcali
09-02-2011, 05:07 PM
And who calls a bathroom a "restroom"...as if it was at a public park or something.

They said she was in the restroom. They clearly said she was NOT in the shower. I think that was their way of saying she was using the toilet.

Betty P
09-02-2011, 05:08 PM
Exactly. Good enough to babysit though.

I definitely got the impression during the PC that the child may have survived his injuries if someone had immediately begun CPR to restart his heart or keep blood flowing. They were quite clear that he died from lack of oxygen to his brain during the period between the accident and EMT's restarting his heart during CPR. Since Rebecca was the only adult present, there seemed to be an implication that, if she had begun or continued CPR, he would have survived.

That failure could have led to either feelings of guilt and responsibility for the death on her part or on the part of someone else.

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 05:12 PM
She had to bind her feet before she threw herself over the balcony. That would necessitate hopping over to the balcony. How, how, how did she jump from the bed to the balcony railing in one large hop? And land right AT the railing in perfect position? Shouldn't there have been at least one more set of prints on the balcony, getting her over there??

bbm

Yep - this!!!

This was one of the questions that popped into my head when I was looking @ the slideshow of the footprints on the balcony tile.

IMO, the footprints are too tidy & neatly placed for someone who *hopped" to the railing with her feet bound.

time
09-02-2011, 05:12 PM
Maybe the music was on loud and she didn't hear the call. Did LE explain or explain away the loud music reports btw?

They are going on Jonah's hearsay explanation of the phone call (actually, "someone close to her", is how LE referred to the message leaver; they resfused to identify the person explicitly. I assume it was Jonah and not Dina, but who knows.


I didn't hear where the question about music was even raised. I could have missed it though.

Yeah, I'm thinking there were several things that were heresay and were not validated by a second party let alone triangulated.

katydid23
09-02-2011, 05:13 PM
I just can't get past one big picture item in today's LE conclusion that is way off base IMO:

If Rebecca felt responsibility and remorse for Max's death as LE has theorized so she killed herself, then why would she do so in such a horrendous fashion thereby adding to Jonah's pain - a pain she felt she had caused? Thus, her method of suicide contradicts the theory of why she committed suicide. I'm sorry but that simply doesn't jive!!!

Maybe because she was ANGRY at him for blaming her. Maybe she was upset that he doubted her, and her suicide was also meant to lash out at him somehow.

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 05:14 PM
Why would you assume he was never in the house - or did not have access to it. After all, it is his brother's house, and he was an invited, requested guest of his brother to lend support in time of need. And he would have to be on the grounds to get in and out of the guest house; or was he not allowed out of the guest house?

I simply responded to your assumptions that Rebecca was running around the house naked. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest she was doing this in the presence of the brother but even if she did, it doesn't matter to me. She hanged herself naked outside so apparently she didn't care who saw her nude body.

cluciano63
09-02-2011, 05:14 PM
I definitely got the impression during the PC that the child may have survived his injuries if someone had immediately begun CPR to restart his heart or keep blood flowing. They were quite clear that he died from lack of oxygen to his brain during the period between the accident and EMT's restarting his heart during CPR. Since Rebecca was the only adult present, there seemed to be an implication that, if she had begun or continued CPR, he would have survived.

That failure could have led to either feelings of guilt and responsibility for the death on her part or on the part of someone else.

Or maybe she was told that he could have survived, if only such and such...

katydid23
09-02-2011, 05:18 PM
Or maybe she was told that he could have survived, if only such and such...

Let alone the obvious, why did she let him horseplay and rough house around the stairway and balcony? I would be really pissed at a babysitter who allowed my 6 yr old to fall over the edge of the stairway. No excuse for that, imo.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 05:19 PM
Did he not know that he was contaminating a crime scene???

I have seen that happen in other cases where LE inadvertently leaves a shoe print.

He probably didn't realize the floor of the balcony was dusty.

IMO

cluciano63
09-02-2011, 05:19 PM
Let alone the obvious, why did she let him horseplay and rough house around the stairway and balcony? I would be really pissed at a babysitter who allowed my 6 yr old to fall over the edge of the stairway. No excuse for that, imo.

I agree...I don't know what the feelings of guilt from that might have caused me to do...

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 05:20 PM
Maybe because she was ANGRY at him for blaming her. Maybe she was upset that he doubted her, and her suicide was also meant to lash out at him somehow.

How could he not blame her? I think she knew their relationship was over.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 05:22 PM
How could he not blame her? I think she knew their relationship was over.

I think so too.

IMO

elementry
09-02-2011, 05:22 PM
I simply responded to your assumptions that Rebecca was running around the house naked. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest she was doing this in the presence of the brother but even if she did, it doesn't matter to me. She hanged herself naked outside so apparently she didn't care who saw her nude body.

Hanged herself, or was hung...... by someone. Why are you so certain, just based on this somewhat vague press conference. even LE themselves say that this seems to be the only scenario that fits, and not that they are 100% in certitude of the specific circumstances; only that they have no clues saying otherwise; also that they would reopen the case if other evidence develops (or was that the ME who said that?). LE seems sufficiently sure of themselves, but there seemed a little vagueness on their part. I was expecting that more "ironclad" result that was fished about in media reports yesterday. Much more detail and dispositive evidence is what I expected but did not get.

MyBelle
09-02-2011, 05:23 PM
Let alone the obvious, why did she let him horseplay and rough house around the stairway and balcony? I would be really pissed at a babysitter who allowed my 6 yr old to fall over the edge of the stairway. No excuse for that, imo.

I totally agree with you.

sorrell skye
09-02-2011, 05:24 PM
Why is that odd? High heat destroys DNA, so if it was used by say Jonah previously and run through the dishwasher all DNA would be gone. So she took the kitchen knife out of the dishwasher, or she was the one to unload the dishwasher previously and took the knife out of a knife block or drawer before using it on the rope only her DNA would be on it.

TY for your comment. It's a credible scenario.

What I find odd is that LE didn't seem to think that it was at least possibly questionable that only Rebecca's fingerprints were found on BOTH knives, in a household where there was more than one adult who may have used or touched them. What I find odd is that it doesn't appear that LE attempted to explain the absence of anyone's else's fingerprints on the knives.

elementry
09-02-2011, 05:25 PM
How could he not blame her? I think she knew their relationship was over.

Blame her for going to the bathroom for a few minutes? What, was she supposed to cease all bodily functions when she was on child-watching duty?

Even blaming her for not delivering timely CPR is an awful far stretch. This is not to say that he didn't blame her; I bet he did, though that was not justified imho.

oceanblueeyes
09-02-2011, 05:25 PM
I really thought they presented their case very well and how they came to their determination.

If they know where Jonah and Dina were the entire time and have completely ruled out Adam as being involved then that leaves no suspects so it is logical to think her death was a suicide, imo.

IMO