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Salem
09-04-2011, 02:44 AM
Please continue here.

Here is a link to the rules and tips on dealing with your fellow posters. Please take a moment to look the rules over. We have a lot of newbies here.

The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

ALSO - please remember, we do NOT sleuth minors, we do NOT post identifying information about minors, we do NOT name minors.

If a minor is a victim or has been publically named by LE as a perp, then their name may be used. In this particular case, the ONLY minor that may be identified by name is Max, because he was a victim. ALL other minors are OFF THE TABLE.

This is a strict rule and your cooperation is appreciated.

Thanks,

Salem

ETA: Further explanation on minor names. Even when quoting from MSM or other sources, if the minor is not the victim or the perp, we change the name to initials. We do NOT quote the name of the minor. This is to protect the minor. Please keep that in mind. Try to put yourself in the shoes of the parent of that minor. What would you think if your child's name was splattered all over the web.

Thanks Guys!


Thread 6

Thread 7

Thread 8


I am reminded of the Samantha Runnion case where she was snatched by Avila from the front yard while under her grandmother's care. It was mentioned many times that "if only" she had watched more carefully.....
It crosses everyone's mind-but in this case and in that case it seems as if reasonable care was taken and there is no issue with negligence. Bad things happen even under the tightest supervision.

So, let's not derail this topic with blame placing on Rebecca as it relates to the care of Max. Those that feel it is her fault-that's fine most of you have made your point and it is posted.
But we are not going to make it a talking point in this thread. Whatever really happened is a tragedy no matter how you slice it-so let's move on from blaming Rebecca it is just not constructive at this point. If that changes for some reason-the discussion may roll with that in the future.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 03:08 AM
I heard on my Sirius radio station HLN #116 an interview with Ann Bremner, the lawyer. There was a male on the program with Ann and between the two of them, there were three statements that were totally different from what was said at the official press conference. One was that Max was planking and fell to his death;

So it is actively being spread on the airwaves that the Z family believe this was a planking accident. I wonder why they are going head on against LE like this?

snapdragon2
09-04-2011, 03:12 AM
Thanks a lot, moderator - when I started writing my message on the last thread, it was still open. I went to post it, was told the thread was closed, and the message I had spent 20 minutes writing was lost! Now I'm too tired to try to rewrite it! Bah humbug!

Stella5
09-04-2011, 03:27 AM
I heard on my Sirius radio station HLN #116 an interview with Ann Bremner, the lawyer. There was a male on the program with Ann and between the two of them, there were three statements that were totally different from what was said at the official press conference. One was that Max was planking and fell to his death;

So it is actively being spread on the airwaves that the Z family believe this was a planking accident. I wonder why they are going head on against LE like this?

I'm not sure I'm willing to believe a word this Anne Bremner says. I wasn't sure who exactly she was, so googled for a bit and am a bit stunned...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012832729_bremner08m.html

Not the most upstanding, trust worthy person out there. IMO I would venture to guess she sought out the family of Rebecca for more television face time.

Pach
09-04-2011, 03:29 AM
1.) The additional evidence we saw after the LE press conference just raises more questions, doubts and suspicions.

2.)However, these evidence can be "tailored" to support a suicide theory, although as implied in # 1, the evidence for suicide as a cause is not convincing.

3.)my speculation is that LE went the "safe" route and declared the cause a suicide, reason being, there are "powerful" special interests who can make their presence felt in various ways. Furthermore, LE was banking on Rebecca's family making a request for re-investigation(which they did). My reason for # 3 is that I cannot believe that for a city a big as san diego , that the 15 investigators assigned to the case can, deep in their hearts, firmly believe 100% in their suicide findings or am I being too generous ? :floorlaugh:

4.) In other words, if they declared the cause as homicide, the defendants lawyers can use a lot of tactics to drop the case, etc. Declaring the cause of death as suicide before re-investigating is more step-wise, more deliberate and eliminates or lessens the impact of variables that can affect the prosecution's case if this is initially declared a homicide.

5.) With LE going the route of declaring the death first a suicide before opening a re-investigation, they are lessening road ahead of obstacles such as legal wrangling, lawsuits, political or internal pressure, etc

this are just my speculations.

CalElliot
09-04-2011, 03:37 AM
That Jonah Shacknai or LE or both are betting the farm on abruptly closing the cases, shutting out the Zahaus, sealing warrants, etc., seems like pure hubris.

Who does a rush to judgment benefit? LE $$$ in the short term. The “witnesses” to some degree. The down side for all: Makes LE’s “ironclad” findings appear flimsy and forced, thus intensifying public/media interest.

I would think the cases will be a hot potato in SD elections that ultimately burn some LE members. And even if the Max Shacknai and Rebecca Zahau cases are never reopened, all the Shacknai “witnesses,” guilty or innocent, for better or for worse, will all be regarded by some people as murderers or potential murderers or relatives of the murderer(s). No doubt in the works: a news feature or three, the TV movie, books, a cold case….

Money Girl
09-04-2011, 04:53 AM
Rebecca Zahau Autopsy Shocker: Woman Had Mystery 'Tape Residue' On Her Legs

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/rebecca-zahau-suicide-autopsy-tape-residue-her-legs-new-details

Kimmer
09-04-2011, 05:10 AM
If I was even going to beleive this was a suicide, I highly doubt that she would have had a shirt wrapped 3 times around her neck and stuffed in her mouth....I definatly think this needs to be re-investigated...there are just to many loose end with this case (no pun intended).

Melanie
09-04-2011, 05:35 AM
If I was even going to beleive this was a suicide, I highly doubt that she would have had a shirt wrapped 3 times around her neck and stuffed in her mouth....I definatly think this needs to be re-investigated...there are just to many loose end with this case (no pun intended).

I haven't participated in awhile as I was waiting for the autopsy results (and I would just be speculating anyway). But the recent news of the gag in the mouth, the tape residue, and the black spraypaint on the door REALLY bothers me. In short, I can equate my feelings to saying the Coleman children comitted suicide vs. their own father killing them. That's how ridiculous I think the outcome of this investigation is.

What does the statement mean:

'She saved him. Can he save her?'

I agree with alot of what AB discusses in this article, and am gobsmacked that this incident has been labeled as a suicide and filed away.

http://www.examiner.com/news-analysis-in-national/interview-with-anne-bremner-zahau-family-attorney-debunks-suicide-findings

Rich people, rich town, politics -- anything can happen.

MOO thanks!

Melanie

~n/t~
09-04-2011, 07:30 AM
I'm not sure I'm willing to believe a word this Anne Bremner says. I wasn't sure who exactly she was, so googled for a bit and am a bit stunned...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012832729_bremner08m.html

Not the most upstanding, trust worthy person out there. IMO I would venture to guess she sought out the family of Rebecca for more television face time.

I wish they had gotten a better attorney. Anyone but AB :banghead:

BrownRice
09-04-2011, 07:55 AM
Ok, here's some random comments/thoughts since I'm too lazy to copy/paste from the closed thread.

1. Someone asked why DS wouldn't allow RZ to visit Max on his death bed - basically saying it would be the right thing to do. Are you kidding me? I am the friendliest person in the world and I'm nice. However, if my child (my ONLY child) was gravely injured under the supervision of my ex's "young girlfriend" there's no way she would be allowed in the hospital room. I would probably attack her if she tried.

2. I guess we'll never know why RZ didn't answer the phone when JS called. I thought it was commented the other day the time of the call (and it wasn't when she was talking to her family). I would have thought she would keep her phone with her closely waiting for an update. I find it odd.

3. Planking or no planking? It doesn't matter to me what Max was doing when he fell. If it was planking, a 6 year old doesn't realize he needs a photographer to have count as planking. He just does it. Regardless, it was a horrible accident and it wasn't RZ's fault. A caregiver/parent/psuedo-parent/girlfriend is allowed to pee (or take a shower). He wasn't a toddler. He was 6. Presumably in school. He probably walked in and out of school without someone holding his hand. He was learning to be somewhat independent. He can have play time without someone watching every move. Of course, this is assuming he didn't have a history of lighting fires, jumping out of windows, etc.

4. There were questions of the timing of GS posting on Facebook and when she could have known Max wouldn't survive, etc. I would assume the teen siblings (from another mother) would not be in the loop every second for his medical update. They were probably told A. he was gravely injured and then Z. he wasn't going to make it. They may have been spared all the details between A-Z.

BrownRice
09-04-2011, 07:56 AM
Another thing about the spray painted message. I think it's probably easier to spray paint block letters than cursive. How you paint on a standing door/wall would not typically represent how you write on a piece of paper with a pen.

Steely Dan
09-04-2011, 08:35 AM
I just found out about this case on CNN.com; http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/09/02/california.mansion.deaths/index.html?hpt=hp_bn5 Evidently people here have been talking about it a lot.

All I know is that the little boy fell down the steps and died in an "accident". Also, that she was found hanging naked with her hands tied behind her back and they're ruling her death a suicide. :waitasec:

I'd have to see the hand tying, but I think the only person I know of who could tie their own hands behind their back would be Harry Houdini. The police said they found no poisons in her blood, but her live in boyfriend founded a pharmaceutical company.

Several things set off my hinky meter here;

How many people actually die falling down the steps? I saw a Forensics Files or something similar where a cop stated that almost nobody dies from falling down the steps. It's a Hollywood myth.

Why would she strip naked to hang herself? It doesn't make sense.

It seems there is a lot more to this than I know and I'm too lazy to go back and read eight threads so if someone could summarize the case for me I'd be much obliged. TIA

gemvt
09-04-2011, 08:48 AM
Another thing about the spray painted message. I think it's probably easier to spray paint block letters than cursive. How you paint on a standing door/wall would not typically represent how you write on a piece of paper with a pen.

It wasn't spray painted. A small paintbrush was used.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8749.jpg

Steely Dan
09-04-2011, 08:53 AM
This is what she spray painted;

She saved him. Can he save her? :waitasec:

IWannaKnow
09-04-2011, 09:09 AM
by Stella5: IMO from viewing the pictures that particular rope does not. It's covered in a really light plastic type material (supposedly to cut down on mold growth). It could have rebounded a bit in the room, making it higher than when he cut it though. I hate those ropes, they are a pain. Someone up thread asked if you could cut them with scissors... I can't. I use a straight blade, you bend the rope where you want to cut it and then just pull the blade (or knife) right through the rope, it's easy. Scissors aren't sharp enough IMO.

Did Rebecca boat? How would she automatically know that she couldn't cut that with scissors? That would be my first instinct....not kitchen knives. And yet AS went straight for a kitchen knife to cut her down. The tug boat worker. I know that my block of knives have a set of scissors right in the middle....no searching for them. If there were a pair of scissors up there along with the knives, I could buy this better. Two knives? One to threaten with and one to cut rope with???

IWannaKnow
09-04-2011, 09:22 AM
It seems there is a lot more to this than I know and I'm too lazy to go back and read eight threads so if someone could summarize the case for me I'd be much obliged. TIA

Steely:
Max fell on the staircase on Monday 7/11. Rebecca and her younger sister were the only ones home (allegedly). Sister was upstairs showering and Rebecca was in the restroom downstairs. Max was without a pulse or respiration for 25-30 min. Rebecca was forbidden from going to the hospital to visit Max and was found hanging from a balcony, nude, hands and feet bound, tape residue on her legs, a blue t-shirt wrapped around her neck and in her mouth on 7/13 at 6:48 am. The boyfriend's brother found her and cut her down with a kitchen knife. She supposedly did all this herself, in the bedroom with the balcony. She wrote the note on the door to the bedroom (allegedly) with paint and a brush, cut the rope with two kitchen knives. Max was pronounced dead on 7/16 and his organs were donated. Rebecca's family has hired an attorney because they do not agree with the suicide ruling.

You can view parts of the media briefing and photos here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

Don't have a good link for the full media briefing....sorry.

Here is a floor plan of the house:
http://www.trulia.com/property/photos/1039341000-1043-Ocean-Blvd-Coronado-CA-92118#item-1

arielilane
09-04-2011, 09:33 AM
I'm beginning to think that counsel, Paul P represented GS. Hence, the reason nothing further is being discussed as to her presence at the mansion that day. jmo

arielilane
09-04-2011, 09:38 AM
I heard on my Sirius radio station HLN #116 an interview with Ann Bremner, the lawyer. There was a male on the program with Ann and between the two of them, there were three statements that were totally different from what was said at the official press conference. One was that Max was planking and fell to his death;

So it is actively being spread on the airwaves that the Z family believe this was a planking accident. I wonder why they are going head on against LE like this?
To be honest the planking makes more sense to me than falling over the railing.

BrownRice
09-04-2011, 09:39 AM
It wasn't spray painted. A small paintbrush was used.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8749.jpg

Ok, thanks for the clarification. That even points to my theory even more. Painting with a paint brush would not have the same style as writing with a pen or pencil. I think her family is just grasping for anything to help their denial.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 09:46 AM
Whether the lawyer is the most upstanding citizen, she presumably has access to info we don't. RN is dead but 13 year old little sister was in the house. The sister should know who else was in the house and if there is any reason the child could have been planking.

annalia
09-04-2011, 10:27 AM
This is what she spray painted;

She saved him. Can he save her? :waitasec:

Thank you for that.

Does that sound like a suicide note?

I just can't wrap my head around this being a suicide.

I think this will be one of those cases where we will probably never know for sure, anything is possible but for me I can't buy that this was a suicide.
A sad reality is that money talks, and I wonder if it was talking in this case.

deanna82437
09-04-2011, 10:50 AM
Does anyone find this interesting? Just curious why they automatically refer to her as "divorced". Also the "death due to: due to" ..

Date/Time of Death: 7/13/2011 6:48:00 AM Date/Time injury: 07/--/2011 Unk
Summary: The decedent was a 32 year old divorced Asian female who resided in a home in Coronado with her boyfriend. On 07/13/11, her body was discovered hanging in a courtyard of her home. Due to suspicious circumstances a homicide investigation was initiated.
Cause of Death/Updated Cause of Death: Hanging due to: due to:

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/me/press/press.html

jjenny
09-04-2011, 11:02 AM
It also states Max's death was due to cervical spinal cord contusion.

curiousjo
09-04-2011, 11:14 AM
MS:
Date/Time injury: 07/11/2011 1010
Date/Time of Death: 7/16/2011 11:30:00 AM
Summary: The decedent was a six year old child. On 07/11/11, he reportedly fell from a staircase banister and was transported via ambulance to Rady Children's Hospital with head trauma. His condition did not improve and on 07/16/11, brain death was pronounced.

So, RN commits suicide early Wed am, and MS not pronounced brain dead till Saturday?

jjenny
09-04-2011, 11:28 AM
Another thing I find peculiar-supposedly she gets a message that went to voice mail that supposedly informed her of Max's condition not going to improve. The message is deleted. Why was she not picking up the phone (since message went to voice mail)? With the child in the hospital she would have wanted to pick up the phone if somebody with knowledge of the child's condition was calling. And why can't police retrieve the message? I don't doubt her family would be interested in hearing what was in it.

JBean
09-04-2011, 11:43 AM
How many people actually die falling down the steps? I saw a Forensics Files or something similar where a cop stated that almost nobody dies from falling down the steps. It's a Hollywood myth.



STeely-Max didn't fall down the stairs in a the "Hollywood" fashion. He went over the bannister rail where it starts to descend from the upper level,hit the lower bannister on his way down and landed on the flooring below the stairwell. I'd have to look-but I don't think he actually hit a single step-he really launched off the 2nd floor landing-according to LE.

time
09-04-2011, 11:58 AM
Transparency should be key in this case. A suicide ruling seems to mean they do not have to discuss all findings or lack of them. I am under the impression they are not willing to do that even with the family. In fact, it was mentioned that even the search warrants, I believe will not be obtainable without a court order.

Troublesome:

There was basically nothing much that came out for weeks on end. We hear a very well planned presentation, then the doors slam shut. If we start from some begining since the two cases are connected per LE. We cannot even be told of any background on who was there that morning. Why not? What the heck does it matter if this is all on the up and up. The wording even about that was carefully chosen based on 'when the ambulance arrived' and so on as. In the presser, they kept saying things like 'we are not going to talk about that' or release that or whatever out of respect for the families. This was just plain cagey and had nothing to do with respecting the Zahau family. They bothered to mention some mysterious journal entry on her phone that they claim is undated as evidence she commited suicide and an anonymous friend who only relayed something that happened months ago, not all the counter evidence. They rely solely on someone's account of what happened as the truth when in fact that person could have had ulterior motivations. They keep referring to Rebecca as Shacknai girlfriend instead of his partner. Jonah has just one sentence about Rebecca after the press conference (written) and he makes it sound like she was just someone he knew for a short while. At least he said something positive about her.

We were supplied little context and details for what went on other than so and so was in the bathroom when the accident happened, here's how we think it happened, Rebecca calling the dog guy, two phone calls (one of which they claim led to her suicide and they wouldn't even reveal at the presser who made it), a vaugue message on the dor (again, they wouldn't reveal it - why not, it's hardly a suicide note and they even said as much), and saying Rebecca shuttled others back and forth.

Did anyone threaten Rebecca? What other calls did she get?

What calls were made by the other players?

Where were her clothes?

Who else visited the hospital?

Why on earth wouldn't they just come out and mention she was gagged and if that's how she was found when LE arrived?


Of course, I have many more questions ... too many. It's all just too hinky

1Chump
09-04-2011, 12:21 PM
The same thing bothers me with both the little boy, Max, and the gf, Rebecca. Didn't both of them have to go up before they could go down.

Max was 45 inches tall. Rebecca as 5'3" tall. None of the info I've seen has the height measurements on the "railings." Most railings are at least 42 inches. I just do not see how Max could "fall" over the railing. He had to climb up to fall over.

With Rebecca, it makes less sense. They claim she rolled over the railing. However, the "photos" show her footprints at least 9 inches away from the railing. If she leaned over, the railing would hit even higher on her body. She could not use her hands to pull her over. She did not run up to the railing. The only "weight" to pull her over would be her head. Because with her hands bound behind her back, her upper body weight would shift backwards. Her hands needed to be over the railing for the weight to shift forward. She could not bend over at the waist to get her head lower than the railing.

How did she get the height and distance needed at her height, from a standing position, to get herself over the railing?

jjenny
09-04-2011, 12:44 PM
How tall is the person depicted in LE stimulation of how Max supposedly fell?
Is that stimulation even to scale of a six year old vs. the railing?

x_files
09-04-2011, 12:48 PM
How tall is the person depicted in LE stimulation of how Max supposedly fell?
Is that stimulation even to scale of a six year old vs. the railing?

Being around Rebbecca's height. I can tell you that would not be easy especially when tied up. The figure they used was of an adult male not a six year old. i think LE took a lot of time to try to explain away very suspicious "accidents" and a suicide. Just not buying it.
Two very bizarre freak accidents in the matter of days.

JBean
09-04-2011, 12:53 PM
Regarding Max's fall over the rail. I thought he didn't fall over the full height rail-but rather at the point where the stair descends and the bannister meets the upstairs landing was the location. That would be a much lower rail because he had the height of the second floor landing-but the rail was in position for the stairs.

IOW the rail he went over was not a guard for the landing-but a guard for the stairs which would make the standard height of it inconsequential as that height is measured from the steps but he launched from the landing-which is much higher.

That probably makes no sense so I will find a picture.

This is the best picture on page 8.
You can see that the area he went over the rail as it relates to the second floor landing is extremely low because it is not in place for the landing. It is in place for the steps.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/ms.pdf

jjenny
09-04-2011, 01:03 PM
I am not sure I understand how he would have gotten over the "low" area of the railing. Wouldn't one actually have to get onto the stairs and then go sidewise rather than running straight forward as the stimulation shows? To me the stimulation looks like a figure that does not appear to be to scale running and going over where the railing is not low.

Susanna
09-04-2011, 01:08 PM
I don't see how a woman (even a guilt-ridden one) would commit suicide following such a tragedy. If she truly cared for Mr. Shacknai, wouldn't she want to be there for him in his greatest time of need? Help him through it and then deal with her feelings. Instead she supposedly compounded his grief and stress by ending her life in such a bizarre way. (Not that suicide is usually logical) Why would she add such misery to someone she loved, who needed her, if she never had a history of mental illness?

The entire thing from beginning to end makes NO sense, every detail is hinky and unexplained and I'm not buying that she did this to herself.

JBean
09-04-2011, 01:13 PM
I am not sure I understand how he would have gotten over the "low" area of the railing. Wouldn't one actually have to get onto the stairs and then go sidewise rather than running straight forward as the stimulation shows? To me the stimulation looks like a figure that does not appear to be to scale running and going over where the railing is not low.
In the pictures I am looking at he is going over the low area-low as it relates to where he started on the landing and the rail height on the steps..
If he was going pretty fast-I can totally see this as a freak accident.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 01:18 PM
In the pictures I am looking at he is going over the low area-low as it relates to where he started on the landing and the rail height on the steps..
If he was going pretty fast-I can totally see this as a freak accident.

If by low area you mean where the railing deeps, how does one get to it by running? The area that deeps is where the stairs go down (parallel to the stairs). How can one get to it by running as the stimulation depicts? He would have gone over the corner first where the railing is of normal height. Do they think he was somehow running sidewise on the stairs?

JBean
09-04-2011, 01:22 PM
If by low area you mean where the railing deeps, how does one get to it by running? The area that deeps is where the stairs go down (parallel to the stairs). How can one get to it by running as the stimulation depicts? He would have gone over the corner first where the railing is of normal height.
I disagree. he would access the low area right at the corner on the step immedately before the landing.
If he lost his footing or whatever at the top step and feel into the rail on the 2nd step it is far too low to protect him.

ETA: probably the best way for me to say this is it appears to me that he fell over the rail at the last step before the landing-from the height of the landing.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 01:30 PM
I disagree. he would access the low area right at the corner on the step immedately before the landing.
If he lost his footing or whatever at the top step and feel into the rail on the 2nd step it is far too low to protect him.

ETA: probably the best way for me to say this is it appears to me that he fell over the rail at the last step before the landing-from the height of the landing.

I don't doubt that his death was a tragic accident. What I doubt is how exactly it took place. The stimulation and the figure do not appear to be in scale of the actual height of the 6 year old vs. the railing. The shape of the railing in the stimulation also does not appear to be a good match for the curve in the railing of the actual staircase. To go over the railing at the low place he would have gone sidewise or across and I am not sure how much room that leaves for running prior to the fall.

curiousjo
09-04-2011, 01:40 PM
After reading this article, I bet case will be re-opened and investigated. (written by British press -Where is the US press on this case?)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033617/Jonah-Shacknais-lover-Rebecca-Zahau-tape-residue-legs-t-shirt-stuffed-mouth.html

The revelations convinced renowned forensic pathologist Doctor Cyril Wecht, who in the 1970s was the lone dissenting voice on a panel investigating the assassination of JFK, to question the suicide verdict and call for a second autopsy.While Dr Wecht stopped short of saying it was murder, he is not content to rule it a suicide. He thinks the report needs a lot more scrutiny
'When you put all of this together, it just is bothersome' Dr Wecht told KFMB-AM. 'The manner of death I would have left as undetermined.' On the t-shirt, which was removed from her mouth by Mr Shacknai's brother Adam when he cut her down, Dr Wecht told KFMB-AM: 'What does she care for that? "Gee, I don't want to wake anybody up who may come to rescue me." 'I don't know. I'm just trying to think. She didn't want to be rescued and didn't want to scream so she put it in her mouth? It's absurd.' Max was revealed to have broken his spinal chord in his fall, and was not breathing and had no pulse when he was found.

Regarding the tape residue, Dr Wecht speculated Ms Zahau could have planned to to bind her feet with duct tape and then switched to rope. But he added to KFMB-AM: 'Well then, where's the duct tape?'

He also questioned why her feet were bound. 'Did she want to make it seem like it was a murder and incriminate him? That's something to think about.'

And Dr Wecht was concerned by haemorrhages found under her scalp surface, saying it was evidence of blunt force trauma. 'For someone to say there isn't any kind of struggle is not correct,' he told KFMB-AM."

Mouse
09-04-2011, 01:40 PM
MS:
Date/Time injury: 07/11/2011 1010
Date/Time of Death: 7/16/2011 11:30:00 AM
Summary: The decedent was a six year old child. On 07/11/11, he reportedly fell from a staircase banister and was transported via ambulance to Rady Children's Hospital with head trauma. His condition did not improve and on 07/16/11, brain death was pronounced.

So, RN commits suicide early Wed am, and MS not pronounced brain dead till Saturday?

From what I remember when my sister-in-law died (massive head wounds from an auto accident; she was in the ICU for nearly a month), being pronounced brain-dead is a process--legally, there has to be something like "no sign of electrical activity in the brain for a continuous 24 hours" or something like that. I don't remember the specifics, or if it varies legally from state to state, but to pronounce someone legally brain dead is a process over a period of time (more than just a few hours). Additionally, since my SIL's organs were donated, her body was kept alive past the point of brain death so that her organs could be harvested.

So I could see there being a time lag between the point at which someone is accepted as "dead" by the family, and the point at which death of the body is officially pronounced, particularly in an organ donor situation.

JBean
09-04-2011, 01:42 PM
I don't doubt that his death was a tragic accident. What I doubt is how exactly it took place. The stimulation and the figure do not appear to be in scale of the actual height of the 6 year old vs. the railing. The shape of the railing in the stimulation also does not appear to be a good match for the curve in the railing of the actual staircase. To go over the railing at the low place he would have gone sidewise or across and I am not sure how much room that leaves for running prior to the fall.
Losing one's footing at the top of the step would pretty much do it.
Shoot maybe he was going to slide down the rail and jumped to grab it and just over shot the bannister because he was running. Does he have a history of sliding down the bannister does anyone know?
What's the deal with the razor? was that a theory or ?? Because if he was riding the razor it would be a no brainer how it happened.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 01:47 PM
UK article reporting Dr. Wecht thinks her autopsy showed evidence of blunt force trauma to her head? If that is accurate that would be most peculiar, to say the least, considering she supposedly killed herself by hanging. Would they say she whacked herself on the head first?

katydid23
09-04-2011, 01:56 PM
I don't see how a woman (even a guilt-ridden one) would commit suicide following such a tragedy. If she truly cared for Mr. Shacknai, wouldn't she want to be there for him in his greatest time of need? Help him through it and then deal with her feelings. Instead she supposedly compounded his grief and stress by ending her life in such a bizarre way. (Not that suicide is usually logical) Why would she add such misery to someone she loved, who needed her, if she never had a history of mental illness?

The entire thing from beginning to end makes NO sense, every detail is hinky and unexplained and I'm not buying that she did this to herself.

I think she was rejected by JS and he may have verbally blamed her for his son's death. So at that point she was not able to be there for him. In fact, he was possibly attacking her in her time of need. By blaming her and telling her to leave the mansion, their relationship was over, he pushed her over the edge. [ possible scenario--speculation only]

katydid23
09-04-2011, 02:03 PM
From what I remember when my sister-in-law died (massive head wounds from an auto accident; she was in the ICU for nearly a month), being pronounced brain-dead is a process--legally, there has to be something like "no sign of electrical activity in the brain for a continuous 24 hours" or something like that. I don't remember the specifics, or if it varies legally from state to state, but to pronounce someone legally brain dead is a process over a period of time (more than just a few hours). Additionally, since my SIL's organs were donated, her body was kept alive past the point of brain death so that her organs could be harvested.

So I could see there being a time lag between the point at which someone is accepted as "dead" by the family, and the point at which death of the body is officially pronounced, particularly in an organ donor situation.

Yes, it is a process. But from the beginning there is usually a prognosis that foretells the bleak outlook in the case of massive trauma.

"Max was revealed to have broken his spinal chord in his fall, and was not breathing and had no pulse when he was found."

It sounds as though they knew pretty quickly that Maxie was not going to live. It just takes awhile to break it to the family, make preparations and harvest the organs.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 02:15 PM
By the way looking at the balcony footprints, they can't really claim with a certainty footprints belong to RN (they are not like fingerprints), only that they are consistent with hers in size. There is also boot print supposedly from a police officer (but only one). Well police officer was not hopping on one foot, was he? Was only one police officer walking on that balcony before they took footprint photos, or where there others?

justice be served
09-04-2011, 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justice be served
BBM
Perhaps they were instructed to do so by Jonah as he wanted to protect his other kids. That's not an unreasonable request in an accidental situation.

Posted by
MaBelle:
Obstruction of justice is a crime and is a pretty unreasonable request in accidental situations. It's also a baseless accusation against Jonah at this point, imo.

BBM
Just carrying this from the Thread 8 and including my own post for clarity.

MaBelle, I have no legal background as other posters have on this forum. I was simply speaking as a parent who would want to protect my minor child.

On the bolded portion above about being a baseless accusation of Jonah, the discussion of Jonah perhaps trying to protect his children began in Thread 1 and a considerable number of postings and discussion on this forum about who really was there at the time of Max's accident and questioning by others whether there was a coverup protecting a child. I am citing this to ensure that I've complied with the rules of this forum and to me that does not make it baseless. I also wouldn't blame for one minute a parent that is trying to protect a child in an accident taking place.

CalElliot
09-04-2011, 02:30 PM
UK article reporting Dr. Wecht thinks her autopsy showed evidence of blunt force trauma to her head? If that is accurate that would be most peculiar, to say the least, considering she supposedly killed herself by hanging. Would they say she whacked herself on the head first?

Depends on the location. If on side, could be from slamming against the wall.

CalElliot
09-04-2011, 02:31 PM
By the way looking at the balcony footprints, they can't really claim with a certainty footprints belong to RN (they are not like fingerprints), only that they are consistent with hers in size. There is also boot print supposedly from a police officer (but only one). Well police officer was not hopping on one foot, was he? Was only one police officer walking on that balcony before they took footprint photos, or where there others?

I wondered about that, too. Where is the other boot? Who was the police officer? When and why was he there, contaminating the crime scene?

jjenny
09-04-2011, 02:34 PM
I wondered about that, too. Where is the other boot? Who was the police officer? When and why was he there, contaminating the crime scene?

Unless this is a one legged officer, or he was actually hopping on one foot over the crime scene, a single boot impression indicates to me one can stay on that balcony and not leave a visible footprint (even if you are a normal size male as the one who appears to have left single boot print impression). Because- where is his right boot print?

katydid23
09-04-2011, 02:36 PM
Depends on the location. If on side, could be from slamming against the wall.

And when she was cut down she might have dropped hard on the ground. I do not think he could have reached that high, stretching to cut her down, and still prevent her from falling.

curiousjo
09-04-2011, 02:37 PM
Depends on the location. If on side, could be from slamming against the wall.

Yah, thats what I was just thinking....

And in regards to tape residue on legs- did RN wax or shave her legs. Would waxing leave such residue? My next thought last night was where is the tape roll?

katydid23
09-04-2011, 02:37 PM
Unless this is a one legged officer, or he was actually hopping on one foot all over the crime scene, a single boot impression indicates to me one can stay on that balcony and not leave a visible footprint (even if you are a normal size male as the one who appears to have left single boot print impression). Because- where is his right boot print?

Maybe he only put one foot out onto the balcony. He might have stepped out on one foot to peer onto the balcony and then retreated.

time
09-04-2011, 02:45 PM
The same thing bothers me with both the little boy, Max, and the gf, Rebecca. Didn't both of them have to go up before they could go down.

Max was 45 inches tall. Rebecca as 5'3" tall. None of the info I've seen has the height measurements on the "railings." Most railings are at least 42 inches. I just do not see how Max could "fall" over the railing. He had to climb up to fall over.

With Rebecca, it makes less sense. They claim she rolled over the railing. However, the "photos" show her footprints at least 9 inches away from the railing. If she leaned over, the railing would hit even higher on her body. She could not use her hands to pull her over. She did not run up to the railing. The only "weight" to pull her over would be her head. Because with her hands bound behind her back, her upper body weight would shift backwards. Her hands needed to be over the railing for the weight to shift forward. She could not bend over at the waist to get her head lower than the railing.

How did she get the height and distance needed at her height, from a standing position, to get herself over the railing?


I'm almost the exact same size as Rebecca. The railing would need to be about 36" or less with her standing right next to it I believe, else she couldn't roll over the balcony like that. Good observation on where the print is on the balcony. I also cannot figure out how she could roll off it and only leave an 11" long mark in the dust. Any deviation from right to left at all and it would be more.

They said the railing where Max went off was only 20" high as I remember. It doesn't seem up to code to me, don't know. I'd think they would have heightened that railing though with a small child around.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 02:45 PM
And when she was cut down she might have dropped hard on the ground. I do not think he could have reached that high, stretching to cut her down, and still prevent her from falling.

She was dead for hours at that time. Would a fall of a dead body leave evidence of blunt force trauma to the head?

justice be served
09-04-2011, 02:47 PM
I heard on my Sirius radio station HLN #116 an interview with Ann Bremner, the lawyer. There was a male on the program with Ann and between the two of them, there were three statements that were totally different from what was said at the official press conference. One was that Max was planking and fell to his death;

So it is actively being spread on the airwaves that the Z family believe this was a planking accident. I wonder why they are going head on against LE like this?

BBM
A local reported back in Thread 1, post 47, stated that planking was rumored. Just as the gagging was rumored way back in the postings and now miraculously we find out it is true via the autopsy report but not mentioned by LE.

Also by locals, the chandelier was rumored to be involved and seen carried out from the scene but not videotaped so thought not to be a fact. We now know the chandelier was indeed involved by LE.

Based on how filtered LE has been in releasing or not releasing information, why should the planking be discarded as fact simply because LE has not reported it to be fact? Even though rumor is not fact - locals usually have the inside info and that seems to be playing out on this case at least so far.

LE is playing this as they choose - which is certainly their right - but it doesn't engender confidence in the public's perception of ANYTHING! I'm just hoping that LE is smarter than we think and their approach to this case is trying to ferret out the actual truth in the end. I certainly hope so. JMO on all.

time
09-04-2011, 02:49 PM
How tall is the person depicted in LE stimulation of how Max supposedly fell?
Is that stimulation even to scale of a six year old vs. the railing?

I wondered the same thing. Looks too tall/big in the simulation to me.

justice be served
09-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Depends on the location. If on side, could be from slamming against the wall.

In the PC, they did mention abrasions I think they said on Rebecca's back? from slamming against the plants/wall. Nothing mentioned about her head that I can recall.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 03:02 PM
In the PC, they did mention abrasions I think they said on Rebecca's back? from slamming against the plants/wall. Nothing mentioned about her head that I can recall.

Wecht says he thinks there is evidence of blunt force trauma (his quote "clearly indicative of some kind of blunt force trauma). There is a video linked in this article where he talks about it.
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

time
09-04-2011, 03:07 PM
Yah, thats what I was just thinking....

And in regards to tape residue on legs- did RN wax or shave her legs. Would waxing leave such residue? My next thought last night was where is the tape roll?


To me, the biggest point is that if they accounted for these things in their suicide theory fully, they would have told us why there was tape residue on her legs. I would assuming waxing your legs would be very easy to conclude if that is what is was - although I do not know if you use tape. Why didn't they tell us about the possible blunt force trauma on her head when they told us about her back. Why didn't they tell us about the shirt having been in her mouth? What about the other things that are not accounted for like her clothes. They may not really be important, but I'd have an even more difficult time with all this (not that that's possible!) if her clothes are in the master bedroom. But not being there wouldn't mean it's more likely it was a suicide. I believe we are left with the only logical conclusion we can make... they left out anything that raised question about their theory and/or that they couldn't explain (perhaps did not even try, we don't know).

jjenny
09-04-2011, 03:13 PM
I do agree that the press-conference was going for making the case to appear iron-clad. How did they not mention the gagging by t-shirt? That's in the photos. Or tape residue on legs? Or possible evidence of blunt force trauma to the head? Wecht said he would have left the manner of death "undetermined."

time
09-04-2011, 03:21 PM
She was dead for hours at that time. Would a fall of a dead body leave evidence of blunt force trauma to the head?


Seems this is LE's claim



"Adam ran into the main house to get a knife, pulled a nearby wooden table to the decedent's body, stood on top, cut the rope and laid the decedent's naked body on the grass," the report continued. "He removed a blue cloth which had been in her mouth in an effort to perform CPR and at 0648 hours, placed a 9-1-1 call to request assistance."

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth


Rigor mortis had to have already set in not only because the TOD was set around 3 am but because of the way the body looked lying on the ground. I don't think I would give CPR to someone who was already in rigor mortis, gray, etc.?

Also, if she didn't drop and hit the ground when he cut her down then why were her legs bent like that and her arms behind her?

Amalie
09-04-2011, 03:26 PM
I'm not sure I'm willing to believe a word this Anne Bremner says. I wasn't sure who exactly she was, so googled for a bit and am a bit stunned...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012832729_bremner08m.html

Not the most upstanding, trust worthy person out there. IMO I would venture to guess she sought out the family of Rebecca for more television face time.

Stella, You put the words on my fingers. Of course, she offered her services probono to the family. She wants the air time and self promotion.

Why in the world would they hire someone who isn't even licensed in California to represent them?

time
09-04-2011, 03:28 PM
From the above link a commenter asks this question:


If Adam Shacknai cut Ms. Zahau down, why were his fingerprints NOT found on the rope? And, possibly his DNA on her body?

I keep thinking that was a very long rope. It seems anyone might worry that wanted to commit suicide that the rope could be too long. Or, at least, why make the rope that long.

How do they know her footprints or someone's were not made earlier and someone climbed over the top of the balcony.

How do they know she actually went over the balcony and wasn't hung from below. The length of the rope might suggest this instead of someone jumping off. Didn't they say her neck was not broken?

gitana1
09-04-2011, 03:33 PM
Thanks a lot, moderator - when I started writing my message on the last thread, it was still open. I went to post it, was told the thread was closed, and the message I had spent 20 minutes writing was lost! Now I'm too tired to try to rewrite it! Bah humbug!

When that happens, just hit the back button. The post as it was before you hit "post" should still be there. Then you just copy or cut inside the reply box and then transfer it to the new thread, where you paste it into a new reply. It always works for me.


Steely:
Max fell on the staircase on Monday 7/11. Rebecca and her younger sister were the only ones home (allegedly). Sister was upstairs showering and Rebecca was in the restroom downstairs. Max was without a pulse or respiration for 25-30 min. Rebecca was forbidden from going to the hospital to visit Max and was found hanging from a balcony, nude, hands and feet bound, tape residue on her legs, a blue t-shirt wrapped around her neck and in her mouth on 7/13 at 6:48 am. The boyfriend's brother found her and cut her down with a kitchen knife. She supposedly did all this herself, in the bedroom with the balcony. She wrote the note on the door to the bedroom (allegedly) with paint and a brush, cut the rope with two kitchen knives. Max was pronounced dead on 7/16 and his organs were donated. Rebecca's family has hired an attorney because they do not agree with the suicide ruling.

You can view parts of the media briefing and photos here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

Don't have a good link for the full media briefing....sorry.

Here is a floor plan of the house:
http://www.trulia.com/property/photos/1039341000-1043-Ocean-Blvd-Coronado-CA-92118#item-1

Steely, other info from LE is that Rebecca had black paint on her body and hands, which matched the paint on the door, and that there were no other footprints in front of the railing where she went over, besides one boot matched to LE who went and looked over the railing.

It seems tape residue was found on the front of her shins, but we don't know from what. Bandaid? Shin splint taping? Being bound?

No drugs or alcohol was found in her system. LE claims she received a voicemail message right before her death, from someone telling her Max's prognosis was hopeless. However, the message was deleted. Her phone apparently showed a missed call and then that someone checked her voicemail. However, we don't have independent corroboration as to what any message contained. Could it have been an angry message from Jonah? An angry message from Dinah? A somber message from Jonah? Why was it deleted?

We also do not know what other messages, calls and/or voicemails were received or sent by her in the days after Max's accident, before Rebecca died.

There are reports from her family that blood was running down her leg when she was found, dead, but that LE stated she was not on her period.

The ropes seem to have been connected, from her ankles to her hands, but not exactly hog-tied. There is a live, recreation on the LE website of how a person similar in size to Rebecca could have tied her own hands behind her back. I watched it and did not see demonstration of how her feet were also bound.

Now I hear reports that there is evidence of contusions under her scalp?

A friend reportedly stated that Rebecca seemed depressed in January, losing weight and not exercising like she used to. There are no other, corroborating reports about this and her family contradicts such a report.

Apparently, although I have not seen the news report, some teens hanging out on a neighbor's roof, reported that they saw JS's teen daughter? leaving the house right after Max's accident. LE says only Rebecca and her sister were there when Max fell.

There were knives found upstairs near the bed where the rope used to hang her was attached to a bed. There was a knife found near her body, reportedly used by JS's brother to try to cut her down. I am not clear as to whether he succeeded or not. There are photos? of her body hanging and on the ground, with her body fuzzed out, that someone posted. I don't know if it is a recreation or actual crime scene photos.

Her DNA was found on a knife and the rope used to bind her. I have seen posts stating other DNA from an undetermined source was found on her shirt? but I can't find that in a news report.

The family says the black, block printed message was done with a left hand, as Rebecca's right hand print was found on the door next to it and the message was on one side of the door, I think. They claim it is not her writing while LE claims she signed paintings that way, IIRC.

Curiosjo, in post #895 from the last thread (page 36), linked three articles by a writer named Joel Siegfried. Siegfried posts in comments to this article: http://www.examiner.com/news-analysis-in-national/interview-with-anne-bremner-zahau-family-attorney-debunks-suicide-findings, that he wants the truth to come out and that he has more info that he cannot disclose but that makes the case even more troubling.

BTW, I am on the fence about Rebecca's death. I suppose it is plausible that she killed herself in a very bizarre manner out of rage if she was being blamed for Max's accident, or guilt or both, but I too, see too many unanswered questions. I wish Bremmner was not the attorney for the family. I do not respect her. She seems flighty and made ridiculously illogical statements in connection with casey anthony's case, although her statements in connection with this one seem good so far.

I would like to see a list of all the "facts" and rumors, clearly listed with sources for each, by someone who can present both sides in an unbiased manner. I added what I think I know to IWannaKnow's post, but I'd love to see all in bullet points with sources and links. I'm too lazy/busy to do that right now!


I don't see how a woman (even a guilt-ridden one) would commit suicide following such a tragedy. If she truly cared for Mr. Shacknai, wouldn't she want to be there for him in his greatest time of need? Help him through it and then deal with her feelings. Instead she supposedly compounded his grief and stress by ending her life in such a bizarre way. (Not that suicide is usually logical) Why would she add such misery to someone she loved, who needed her, if she never had a history of mental illness?

The entire thing from beginning to end makes NO sense, every detail is hinky and unexplained and I'm not buying that she did this to herself.

If she was seriously angry, if blame was being placed in her direction, and if she had become unbalanced due to the accident, her own grief and possibly other issues we are not aware of, it is very possible that she wanted to take her life, both to resolve her own feelings and to lash out at JS for blaming her, if he did. Suicides are sometimes vengeful.

If that was the case, her purported message on the door, "She saved him, can he save her?" could mean that she saved JS somehow, but taunts that even though she saved his life in some manner, maybe via her relationship with him (maybe he said that to her before, "You saved my life"), let him try to save her, after she jumped off a railing.

It could also mean, in that scenario, that she saved Max via CPR, helping get his pulse back, but since no one credits her and since they blame her for his condition, let him save her now, which obviously, he could not do.

In a murder scenario, to me it would mean, also sarcastically and angrily, that since she "saved" Max with her heroic CPR efforts, (yet he is essentially brain dead), let him save her from her own "fall" off a balcony.

I don't know what the heck happened. But I do know that money and power can breed some very strange, evil people. I'm prejudiced when it comes to extreme money and it's effects.

October
09-04-2011, 03:37 PM
Holy crap. The exact wording from the autopsy report, from the article linked above:

"On the anterolateral mid left shin there is a 1 x 5/8 inch gray piece of material and two smaller similar pieces just distal to it, measuring 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch (Comment: appears similar to tape residue). On the lateral distal right lower leg there is a 1-1/4 x 5/8 inch area consisting of three horizontally oriented, parallel somewhat evenly spaced, areas of sticky, tan-gray apparent tape residue. They are situated between 3/16 and 5/16 inch apart."

That is not waxing residue or anything else, that is tape. Probably duct tape or something similar. I can't think of one good reason for that to be there. I don't see tape in the pictures, and it was never mentioned. Where did it go?!?

time
09-04-2011, 03:40 PM
Another thing that bothers me from the press conference.

They said Adam broke the leg on the table when moving it from where it was to under Rebecca.

gitana1
09-04-2011, 03:48 PM
From the above link a commenter asks this question:

And, possibly his DNA on her body?

I keep thinking that was a very long rope. It seems anyone might worry that wanted to commit suicide that the rope could be too long. Or, at least, why make the rope that long.

How do they know her footprints or someone's were not made earlier and someone climbed over the top of the balcony.

How do they know she actually went over the balcony and wasn't hung from below. The length of the rope might suggest this instead of someone jumping off. Didn't they say her neck was not broken?

I didn't see that her neck was broken, but that she asphyxiated, I guess from being strangled with the rope.

I don't think his DNA would necessarily be found on her body just because he cut her down. DNA comes from blood, saliva, sperm, skin, usually. I don't think it is as easy to find in dead, skin cells or hair strands, except for follicles. It is very possible that he shed none of that when cutting her down.

So, I guess he did cut her down, then. Question, what are the fuzzed out photos of her body hanging, then, that I saw on the last thread? Was that a recreation?

time
09-04-2011, 03:54 PM
I didn't see that her neck was broken, but that she asphyxiated, I guess from being strangled with the rope.

I don't think his DNA would necessarily be found on her body just because he cut her down. DNA comes from blood, saliva, sperm, skin, usually. I don't think it is as easy to find in dead, skin cells or hair strands, except for follicles. It is very possible that he shed none of that when cutting her down.

So, I guess he did cut her down, then. Question, what are the fuzzed out photos of her body hanging, then, that I saw on the last thread? Was that a recreation?


I find it difficult to believe she dropped 9 ft and her neck was not broken? But I don't think it would be necessarily if she were standing on a table and the table were kicked out.

You're right, he might not leave any DNA but it was a naked body he had to touch (hold and then lay down) as well as hold the rope while he cut? What about fingerprints.

I think that pic you saw was someone cutting out the original pic and trying to place it on a noose as LE described it by length, etc..

thinkingstraight
09-04-2011, 03:55 PM
Transparency should be key in this case. A suicide ruling seems to mean they do not have to discuss all findings or lack of them. I am under the impression they are not willing to do that even with the family. In fact, it was mentioned that even the search warrants, I believe will not be obtainable without a court order.

Troublesome:

There was basically nothing much that came out for weeks on end. We hear a very well planned presentation, then the doors slam shut. If we start from some begining since the two cases are connected per LE. We cannot even be told of any background on who was there that morning. Why not? What the heck does it matter if this is all on the up and up. The wording even about that was carefully chosen based on 'when the ambulance arrived' and so on as. In the presser, they kept saying things like 'we are not going to talk about that' or release that or whatever out of respect for the families. This was just plain cagey and had nothing to do with respecting the Zahau family. They bothered to mention some mysterious journal entry on her phone that they claim is undated as evidence she commited suicide and an anonymous friend who only relayed something that happened months ago, not all the counter evidence. They rely solely on someone's account of what happened as the truth when in fact that person could have had ulterior motivations. They keep referring to Rebecca as Shacknai girlfriend instead of his partner. Jonah has just one sentence about Rebecca after the press conference (written) and he makes it sound like she was just someone he knew for a short while. At least he said something positive about her.

We were supplied little context and details for what went on other than so and so was in the bathroom when the accident happened, here's how we think it happened, Rebecca calling the dog guy, two phone calls (one of which they claim led to her suicide and they wouldn't even reveal at the presser who made it), a vaugue message on the dor (again, they wouldn't reveal it - why not, it's hardly a suicide note and they even said as much), and saying Rebecca shuttled others back and forth.

Did anyone threaten Rebecca? What other calls did she get?

What calls were made by the other players?

Where were her clothes?

Who else visited the hospital?

Why on earth wouldn't they just come out and mention she was gagged and if that's how she was found when LE arrived?


Of course, I have many more questions ... too many. It's all just too hinky

Just because the public was not informed of every single minute detail, it doesn't make it "hinky". My goodness, don't you think LE knows a little more than we do? Maybe they are trying to spare feelings of Rebecca's family?

scorekeeper
09-04-2011, 04:00 PM
Another thing I find peculiar-supposedly she gets a message that went to voice mail that supposedly informed her of Max's condition not going to improve. The message is deleted. Why was she not picking up the phone (since message went to voice mail)? With the child in the hospital she would have wanted to pick up the phone if somebody with knowledge of the child's condition was calling. And why can't police retrieve the message? I don't doubt her family would be interested in hearing what was in it.

[B]BBM[/B

]She must have been tied up at the time:banghead::banghead::banghead:

justice be served
09-04-2011, 04:02 PM
I'm beginning to think that counsel, Paul P represented GS. Hence, the reason nothing further is being discussed as to her presence at the mansion that day. jmo

Bingo Arielilane!:woohoo: You're a smart one! The whole Pfingst subject just disappeared into a void too.

time
09-04-2011, 04:05 PM
From gitana's link a commentor:


So, we have a marine rope used to tie Rebecca up in cleat hitch knots, which are commonly used in boating to dock. http://www.animatedknots.com/cleatdeck/index.php


I haven't even tried to compare this with the knots on Rebecca's wrists, just passing it along.

askfornina
09-04-2011, 04:06 PM
i think the biggest question for me right now is: if TOD is 3am, is it possible that she was not in rigor when she was found at roughly 6-7am? as i understand it rigor sets in at about the 2 hour mark. can it be longer? what factors in to the time it takes? if she was hanging, why are her knees bent?

justice be served
09-04-2011, 04:08 PM
I find it difficult to believe she dropped 9 ft and her neck was not broken? But I don't think it would be necessarily if she were standing on a table and the table were kicked out.

You're right, he might not leave any DNA but it was a naked body he had to touch (hold and then lay down) as well as hold the rope while he cut? What about fingerprints.

I think that pic you saw was someone cutting out the original pic and trying to place it on a noose as LE described it by length, etc..

BBM
Can any of the posters with medical background weigh in on this question of hurling oneself off the balcony with such force that it pulled the bed away from the wall and yet that force didn't break her neck? I wonder how the autopsy findings support this fact as well considering they know how she went over the balcony.

gitana1
09-04-2011, 04:08 PM
Just because the public was not informed of every single minute detail, it doesn't make it "hinky". My goodness, don't you think LE knows a little more than we do? Maybe they are trying to spare feelings of Rebecca's family?

In a case like this, when two very, unusual deaths occur in the same house, within a short period of time, and one looks like an obvious murder but is deemed a suicide, any info the public is not given makes it hinky, IMO.

Like I said, I am on the fence, but the public AND her family are upset and deserve more info that led to LE's conclusion.

thinkingstraight
09-04-2011, 04:11 PM
In a case like this, when two very, unusual deaths occur in the same house, within a short period of time, and one looks like an obvious murder but is deemed a suicide, any info the public is not given makes it hinky, IMO.

Like I said, I am on the fence, but the public AND her family are upset and deserve more info that led to LE's conclusion.

You think her death looked like an "obvious murder"? See, I think that's the problem with this. There's nothing obvious about it. And I think that was the intention.

time
09-04-2011, 04:16 PM
I find the Rat Tail Stopper more interesting:

http://www.animatedknots.com/rattailstopper/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Wait for the pictures to come up and hover over numbers 17-21

gitana1
09-04-2011, 04:16 PM
You think her death looked like an "obvious murder"? See, I think that's the problem with this. There's nothing obvious about it. And I think that was the intention.

I do. When a woman is found bound and gagged and naked, with her hands tied behind her back and the rope binding them also connected to her bound feet, yes, it looks like an obvious murder.

In fact, LE apparently thought it looked like an obvious murder at first as well. Which is why they opened a "homicide" investigation at the onset.

scorekeeper
09-04-2011, 04:17 PM
UK article reporting Dr. Wecht thinks her autopsy showed evidence of blunt force trauma to her head? If that is accurate that would be most peculiar, to say the least, considering she supposedly killed herself by hanging. Would they say she whacked herself on the head first?

Could she have hit her head on the house/wall? She should have "swung" back and forth after going over the railing or being pushed over the railing.....but it doesn't appear that any of the tree limbs were broken.....

branwynbreeze
09-04-2011, 04:19 PM
Wow, you all have been busy! Trying to catch up.

Seems as if RZ family are gearing up for a wrongful death suit, much like civil suit against OJ. If this is the case, JS has 2 choices, have everyone and his brother remotely associate with this case give a deposition or pay off family.

ETA-I'd like to know more about DS boyfriend.

time
09-04-2011, 04:28 PM
Just because the public was not informed of every single minute detail, it doesn't make it "hinky". My goodness, don't you think LE knows a little more than we do? Maybe they are trying to spare feelings of Rebecca's family?


I think they know a lot we weren't told. I think they should have to explain all the evidence and I do not think they are sparing the feelings of Rebecca's family at all. At least, I do not think that is any motivation for them.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 04:59 PM
From gitana's link a commentor:



I haven't even tried to compare this with the knots on Rebecca's wrists, just passing it along.

Her family would know if she were a boater. Frankly the woman appears to have thought of everything-secure rope to the bed, bind her feet, bind her hands, gag herself, as if she were a pro at this. Yet she has no history of depression or suicide attempts. The bets police could come up with to prove she was depressed is that she supposedly stopped exercising in January-even though prior to her death she was exercising regularly. So how did she know to do all these things?

jjenny
09-04-2011, 05:07 PM
I find the Rat Tail Stopper more interesting:

http://www.animatedknots.com/rattailstopper/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Wait for the pictures to come up and hover over numbers 17-21

Again, easy for a boater. Would never occur to me to do something like this, since I am not a boater. So was RN a boater? She liked to exercise-that we know. I don't think we've heard from anyone she liked to boat.

elementry
09-04-2011, 05:19 PM
I'm not sure I'm willing to believe a word this Anne Bremner says. I wasn't sure who exactly she was, so googled for a bit and am a bit stunned...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012832729_bremner08m.html

Not the most upstanding, trust worthy person out there. IMO I would venture to guess she sought out the family of Rebecca for more television face time.


I for one am shocked....shocked! that a lawyer was caught drinking. And then that she attempted to finagle her way out of it? hard to believe!

(just jesting you). But do you think these high powered attorneys are Marques of Queensbury types? Wilting wallflowers and milquetoasts? Believe me, when the poo hits the fan, JS's high powered team will not be playing paddycake. Yes, Bremner was flat wrong in her case - and eventually when she saw her foolishness in this matter backfire, apologized, and moved on.

But I'm still gobsmacked that an attorney might resort to their full kit bag of tricks and maneuvers to get out of trouble. haven't heard of any disbarment proceedings or anything. Sure, it's embarrassing, but she's probably done many good things in the legal field as well, and at least she is trying to represent the Zahau's - who sorely need it - against the monolithic power structure in San Diego that they have seemingly been railroaded by. At least that's their perspective. This may be getting done pro- bono; sure, there's ample publicity in taking on something like this - so Bremner (and her ilk) are not monks nor angels, but that doesn't take away from the fact she's going to bat for the Zahaus. Someone needs to - unless you think they have no right to a defense of their family membe'rs perhaps wrongful death. Let Bremner put some pressure on and see where it goes.

gemvt
09-04-2011, 05:22 PM
She may have started to use duct tape to bind herself and then realized it wasn't working. I'm not sure if duct tape was found anywhere, however.

I completely agree that there are a lot of very strange aspects of these deaths. And while I fully agree that there are corrupt LE officers I have a difficult time believing that all 15 detectives would be involved in a cover-up. My sense is that there are details that are being omitted because of privacy and dignity concerns. And that perhaps if we were privy to these details, things might make more sense.

As I said in an earlier thread I think that Jonah called Rebecca and left a horrible, ugly, hateful message along the lines of he never wanted to see her again, he wanted her gone, etc. I think that coupled with grief, guilt, and what one could assume would be a lack of sleep caused her to decide to kill herself.

MOO.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 05:25 PM
LE might be concerned about privacy, but my guess their concern is mostly about JS's privacy.

Paladine
09-04-2011, 05:30 PM
I have not read; I cannot. I have a dinner party BBQ in progress and I snuck into my bedroom to check on the net for news and found this...


Explosive new details from autopsy report on billionaire's lover reveal she was found with tape residue on her legs and a t-shirt stuffed in her mouth

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033617/Jonah-Shacknais-lover-Rebecca-Zahau-tape-residue-legs-t-shirt-stuffed-mouth.html?ITO=1490

I'll be back...later...after my mother-in-law leaves...OMG...I am angry.

cluciano63
09-04-2011, 05:37 PM
I have not read; I cannot. I have a dinner party BBQ in progress and I snuck into my bedroom to check on the net for news and found this...



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033617/Jonah-Shacknais-lover-Rebecca-Zahau-tape-residue-legs-t-shirt-stuffed-mouth.html?ITO=1490

I'll be back...later...after my mother-in-law leaves...OMG...I am angry.

Any source except the Daily Mail? They are a true gossip rag, IMO...

Steely Dan
09-04-2011, 05:39 PM
Who is GS?


Steely:
Max fell on the staircase on Monday 7/11. Rebecca and her younger sister were the only ones home (allegedly). Sister was upstairs showering and Rebecca was in the restroom downstairs. Max was without a pulse or respiration for 25-30 min. Rebecca was forbidden from going to the hospital to visit Max and was found hanging from a balcony, nude, hands and feet bound, tape residue on her legs, a blue t-shirt wrapped around her neck and in her mouth on 7/13 at 6:48 am. The boyfriend's brother found her and cut her down with a kitchen knife. She supposedly did all this herself, in the bedroom with the balcony. She wrote the note on the door to the bedroom (allegedly) with paint and a brush, cut the rope with two kitchen knives. Max was pronounced dead on 7/16 and his organs were donated. Rebecca's family has hired an attorney because they do not agree with the suicide ruling.

You can view parts of the media briefing and photos here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

Don't have a good link for the full media briefing....sorry.

Here is a floor plan of the house:
http://www.trulia.com/property/photos/1039341000-1043-Ocean-Blvd-Coronado-CA-92118#item-1

Thank you very much.


Regarding Max's fall over the rail. I thought he didn't fall over the full height rail-but rather at the point where the stair descends and the bannister meets the upstairs landing was the location. That would be a much lower rail because he had the height of the second floor landing-but the rail was in position for the stairs.

IOW the rail he went over was not a guard for the landing-but a guard for the stairs which would make the standard height of it inconsequential as that height is measured from the steps but he launched from the landing-which is much higher.

That probably makes no sense so I will find a picture.

This is the best picture on page 8.
You can see that the area he went over the rail as it relates to the second floor landing is extremely low because it is not in place for the landing. It is in place for the steps.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/ms.pdf

I don't see how a small kid could do that. If the chandelier was involved maybe he was trying to swing from it?

I think her death was murder.

Why, and how, would she bind her own hands and feet before killing herself. When did she put the rope around her neck? Was it before she bound her hands and feet and if so what was the length of the rope? What's with the cryptic message? :waitasec:

It appears the message was written with the left hand. was she left handed? If the paintbrush, I saw in one photo, was used it would require multiple redippings in order to write a message. It was small. How does one hold a paint bottle and redip a brush while having a hand placed against a door? :waitasec:

I believe her hands were tied behind her back and yet the demonstration shows the woman tying her hands in front of her. :waitasec:

Why tie her hands and feet before killing herself, even if she could. If she was staging a murder then why? :waitasec:

Why is the Sheriffs department leaving out critical details that are accessible to the public? :waitasec:

My hinky meter is in overdrive.

Betty P
09-04-2011, 05:41 PM
Any source except the Daily Mail? They are a true gossip rag, IMO...

Here's a link to a San Diego radio station that obtained a copy of the autopsy report. It includes an interview with Dr. Cyril Wecht, questioning the finding of suicide. Dr. Wecht also questions the report's mention of bleeding under the scalp of the victim.

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 06:01 PM
To be honest the planking makes more sense to me than falling over the railing.

Planking doesn't fit with the light fixture being struck as well as his injuries, imo

sdcali
09-04-2011, 06:16 PM
She may have started to use duct tape to bind herself and then realized it wasn't working. I'm not sure if duct tape was found anywhere, however. MOO.


snipped by me.

I wanted to discuss the tape residue issue. I would like to see a drawing of RZ with the tape drawn on the legs where it was found.

At first I was also thinking KT-tape for an injury. My husband was using it on his knee for a while due to an injury. It is the dimensions of the tape that puzzles me.

I measured it and it comes in 10" precut lengths that are 2 inches wide, but are seamed in half lengthwise, so that each width could reduced to a 1 inch width.

The tape residue was reported to be 1-1/4 inch by 5/8 inch (I am working from memory--I'll go back to the report to verify). So now I am thinking it was not KT tape residue.

sorrell skye
09-04-2011, 06:21 PM
Even if several inches are added to account for the rope being taut when Rebecca was cut down, the end of the rope still seems too high to reach, IMO.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rzbalcony.jpg

I didn't post the pic because it would blow the margins.

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Wow, you all have been busy! Trying to catch up.

Seems as if RZ family are gearing up for a wrongful death suit, much like civil suit against OJ. If this is the case, JS has 2 choices, have everyone and his brother remotely associate with this case give a deposition or pay off family.

ETA-I'd like to know more about DS boyfriend.

While I agree that might be Bremner's goal, it ain't gonna happen, imo. Nothing is similar to the OJ case. JS has not been charged with murder and LE says they have accounted for his location at TOD that has been ruled a suicide.

I don't see any Judge allowing a wrongful death case to proceed when it is a suicide and JS was nowhere near it plus there is no evidence he even spoke to her.

sdcali
09-04-2011, 06:38 PM
Even if several inches are added to account for the rope being taut when Rebecca was cut down, the end of the rope still seems too high to reach, IMO.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rzbalcony.jpg

I didn't post the pic because it would blow the margins.

It is hard to determine from the photo and I can see what you are saying. I noticed that there is a great deal of slack in the rope. I wonder how much longer the rope would hang if it were taut with a 100 pound person hanging from it.

I have a bigger problem with two other things: the angle that the table leg was broken and direction the rope on the ground trails -- as Inobu pointed out in earlier threads.

I'm going to revist those now that we know what AS told LE.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 06:43 PM
BBM
A local reported back in Thread 1, post 47, stated that planking was rumored. Just as the gagging was rumored way back in the postings and now miraculously we find out it is true via the autopsy report but not mentioned by LE.

Also by locals, the chandelier was rumored to be involved and seen carried out from the scene but not videotaped so thought not to be a fact. We now know the chandelier was indeed involved by LE.

Based on how filtered LE has been in releasing or not releasing information, why should the planking be discarded as fact simply because LE has not reported it to be fact? Even though rumor is not fact - locals usually have the inside info and that seems to be playing out on this case at least so far.

LE is playing this as they choose - which is certainly their right - but it doesn't engender confidence in the public's perception of ANYTHING! I'm just hoping that LE is smarter than we think and their approach to this case is trying to ferret out the actual truth in the end. I certainly hope so. JMO on all.

I believe the planking may be true. But if so, then RN did have some reason to feel guilty. As the adult in charge, she should have been aware of the fact that a 6 yr old was horsing around on the upper stairwell, trying to act like a stiff board.

But why would LE draw up that animation of Max's accident, which showed something very different than a planking accident?

If Max was trying to plank, imo, he must have seen it somewhere. Like maybe the older teens in the house?

katydid23
09-04-2011, 06:46 PM
snipped by me.

I wanted to discuss the tape residue issue. I would like to see a drawing of RZ with the tape drawn on the legs where it was found.

At first I was also thinking KT-tape for an injury. My husband was using it on his knee for a while due to an injury. It is the dimensions of the tape that puzzles me.

I measured it and it comes in 10" precut lengths that are 2 inches wide, but are seamed in half lengthwise, so that each width could reduced to a 1 inch width.

The tape residue was reported to be 1-1/4 inch by 5/8 inch (I am working from memory--I'll go back to the report to verify). So now I am thinking it was not KT tape residue.

I used to use that kind of tape to attach those elastic shin guards to my shins when I ran. When I did that there would only be residue where it touched my skin, the other part was on the elastic. So I think it could happen that way.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 06:51 PM
Planking doesn't fit with the light fixture being struck as well as his injuries, imo

If he was trying to lay out flat on the top of the balcony staircase, and he started to fall, he may have stretch out to try and hang on to the chandelier. Instead of breaking his fall, it crashed to the floor.

I am not sold on the planking, but I am not sold on the other explanation either. The animation they used was the size of a grown man, not a 6 yr old boy. And I do not see how he went over the top of the stair well with such force.

Quester
09-04-2011, 06:53 PM
Remember the early reports of detectives inside the mansion near the grand staircase with blue lights and, if I remember correctly, jumping or bouncing on the upper bannister or something like that.

I wonder how that ties into a small child possibly planking then falling far enough out to collide with the chandelier?

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 06:56 PM
I believe the planking may be true. But if so, then RN did have some reason to feel guilty. As the adult in charge, she should have been aware of the fact that a 6 yr old was horsing around on the upper stairwell, trying to act like a stiff board.

But why would LE draw up that animation of Max's accident, which showed something very different than a planking accident?

If Max was trying to plank, imo, he must have seen it somewhere. Like maybe the older teens in the house?

Max propelled over that railing at a great speed. The injuries to Max's body plus the involvement of the chandelier do not fit with a planking scenario. If he was even attempting to plank on the railing, his body would have fallen straight down and not been propelled horizontally into the chandelier and the other railing. JMO

jjenny
09-04-2011, 06:58 PM
What if he was attempting to slide down the railing when he lost his balance and fell off? As I recall that was one of the rumors. There was another one, that he was trying to reach the ball caught in the chandelier.

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 06:59 PM
If he was trying to lay out flat on the top of the balcony staircase, and he started to fall, he may have stretch out to try and hang on to the chandelier. Instead of breaking his fall, it crashed to the floor.

I am not sold on the planking, but I am not sold on the other explanation either. The animation they used was the size of a grown man, not a 6 yr old boy. And I do not see how he went over the top of the stair well with such force.

The evidence indicates he propelled over the railing at quite a speed. Gravity would have pulled Max straight down if he was trying to lay flat and no way he would have been able to reach for a chandelier.

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 07:00 PM
What if he was attempting to slide down the railing when he lost his balance and fell off?


He would have fallen straight down from the force of gravity and not bounced off the opposite stair rail imo.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 07:00 PM
The evidence indicates he propelled over the railing at quite a speed. Gravity would have pulled Max straight down if he was trying to lay flat and no way he would have been able to reach for a chandelier.

Frankly unless you model that on a computer I wouldn't be so fast to rule it out.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 07:09 PM
New article on her hemorrhages. Even if AS dropped her on her head while cutting her down (which he doesn't say happened), she wouldn't have gotten those because but that time she would have been dead for hours, and Dr. Wecht says she would have gotten the injuries while she was still alive or minutes after her death.

"Even if (her) scalp hit bushes, that kind of impact would not produce subgaleal hemorrhage," Wecht said. "We're talking about contusions on the top of the head. So, even as the body is falling down – let's say there are branches – how do you get bruises on the top of the head as the body is falling vertically downward?"
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

katydid23
09-04-2011, 07:14 PM
She was dead for hours at that time. Would a fall of a dead body leave evidence of blunt force trauma to the head?

I am not sure. But if she fell hard on her head there might have been some evidence of that fall, even if it did not bleed the same way it would if she were alive.

But couldn't she have been swinging around when she went over the railing? She could have slammed into the wall or the railing at that point.

Quester
09-04-2011, 07:14 PM
What if MS, for some strange reason, was standing up on the upper banister and fell, kind of like timber?

In this way, no running speed would be necessary to reach the chandelier. His head or outstretched arms might collide with it.


PS The idea of planking has got to be one of the most ridiculous and silly, childish things to do. How is it that people are entertained by this?

askfornina
09-04-2011, 07:16 PM
i think the biggest question for me right now is: if TOD is 3am, is it possible that she was not in rigor when she was found at roughly 6-7am? as i understand it rigor sets in at about the 2 hour mark. can it be longer? what factors in to the time it takes? if she was hanging, why are her knees bent?

anyone have an answer for this? lol

jjenny
09-04-2011, 07:17 PM
I am not sure. But if she fell hard on her head there might have been some evidence of that fall, even if it did not bleed the same way it would if she were alive.

But couldn't she have been swinging around when she went over the railing? She could have slammed into the wall or the railing at that point.

I just posted a link to a new article on this. Dr. Wecht indicates that she was still alive or minutes after death when those injuries would have occurred. He also doesn't think the injuries are explained by the hanging scenario.
"A renowned forensic pathologist said Sunday that injuries on the top of the head of Rebecca Zahau described in her autopsy are unexplained by the circumstances of her hanging death, which was officially ruled a suicide by the San Diego County Medical Examiner."
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 07:20 PM
Frankly unless you model that on a computer I wouldn't be so fast to rule it out.

LE did model the trajectory of Max's momentum and resulting fall and it doesn't remotely fit a planking scenario imo.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 07:21 PM
I just posted a link to a new article on this. Dr. Wecht indicates that she was still alive or minutes after death when those injuries would have occurred. He also doesn't think the injuries are explained by the hanging scenario.
"A renowned forensic pathologist said Sunday that injuries on the top of the head of Rebecca Zahau described in her autopsy are unexplained by the circumstances of her hanging death, which was officially ruled a suicide by the San Diego County Medical Examiner."
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

In my mind I can see her going over the railing and swinging around pretty hard and fast. So only minutes after her death she might have been swung head first into the wall or the underside of the railing.

I noticed that Dr. W falls short of saying it was NOT a suicide, and he even speculates that she may have tried to make it look like a murder herself. That is where I am leaning right now.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 07:23 PM
LE did model the trajectory of Max's momentum and resulting fall and it doesn't remotely fit a planking scenario imo.

But they used a stick figure that was the size of an adult male, not the size of a 6 yr old. That makes me less than confident about their findings.

Quester
09-04-2011, 07:25 PM
LE did model the trajectory of Max's momentum and resulting fall and it doesn't remotely fit a planking scenario imo.

Maybe MS was participating somehow while someone else was planking ?

When planking came up early on in this case we all viewed/discussed photos where two people were planking together, some on top of each other.

time
09-04-2011, 07:26 PM
Her family would know if she were a boater. Frankly the woman appears to have thought of everything-secure rope to the bed, bind her feet, bind her hands, gag herself, as if she were a pro at this. Yet she has no history of depression or suicide attempts. The bets police could come up with to prove she was depressed is that she supposedly stopped exercising in January-even though prior to her death she was exercising regularly. So how did she know to do all these things?

I think they would know also or someone, nothing like that was claimed. I haven't fully considered the knots, but I think they are just too darn fussy for someone commiting suicide on the spur of the moment (more or less). I'm not saying incredibly difficult knotwise, but too complex/tedious, e.g., why so many turns around the wrists, she somehow knew she could do that in front, slip a hand out and reinsert it in the back, with a pull rope or whatever. When I watched the video I just thought good grief they would have been better off not showing the simulation.

I thought I read and posted before (have to verify) that even the naked suicide article claimed some high percentage, like 98%, of people who committed/completed suicide had previous mental health problems.

My mind keeps going back to my statistics days and thinking what would the odds she committed suicide if you put all these variable into a regression equation. I think next to nil.... .00000000000000001

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 07:28 PM
I am not sure. But if she fell hard on her head there might have been some evidence of that fall, even if it did not bleed the same way it would if she were alive.

But couldn't she have been swinging around when she went over the railing? She could have slammed into the wall or the railing at that point.

imo, head injury is easily explained. She may -have hit her head on the railing, balcony or the house.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 07:30 PM
What if he was attempting to slide down the railing when he lost his balance and fell off? As I recall that was one of the rumors. There was another one, that he was trying to reach the ball caught in the chandelier.

I just now watched the repeat of Jane Velez mitchell show. She said, as if it were factual, that Max was sliding headfirst down the bannister when he fell.

I cannot see how that happened. He would have to be at the very top for that to happen for him to land on the chandelier. And would he begin sliding on the very top when it is short and makes a quick curve? Maybe so, since he was only 6. IDK.

ellabella
09-04-2011, 07:36 PM
I have a theory about Max's death that would make Rebecca feel guilty, even if she weren;t... if that makes sense? but then I don't necessarily think Rebecca committed suicide so I'm not sure how that all fits together. I will say my feelings on Maxs death were that it might not have been...intentional.. it wans't accidental either and that the person pushing him might not have had the forethought to see what could happen.

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 07:36 PM
But they used a stick figure that was the size of an adult male, not the size of a 6 yr old. That makes me less than confident about their findings.

It was a "stick figure" and you're criticizing the height? Goodness me, how much taxpayer money did you expect LE to spend on something that was simply intended to illustrate what happened in an accident?

LE's findings was based on the evidence and the injuries. Ms. Bremner's planking scenario doesn't fit the evidence.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 07:38 PM
It was a "stick figure" and you're criticizing the height? Goodness me, how much taxpayer money did you expect LE to spend on something that was simply intended to illustrate what happened in an accident?

LE's findings was based on the evidence and the injuries. Ms. Bremner's planking scenario doesn't fit LE's findings.

How much money does it take to make a figure intended to demonstrate how six year child sustained his injuries, to be the size of a six year old child? Is that much more expensive for reasons that escape me at the moment?

katydid23
09-04-2011, 07:38 PM
I think they would know also or someone, nothing like that was claimed. I haven't fully considered the knots, but I think they are just too darn fussy for someone commiting suicide on the spur of the moment (more or less). I'm not saying incredibly difficult knotwise, but too complex/tedious, e.g., why so many turns around the wrists, she somehow knew she could do that in front, slip a hand out and reinsert it in the back, with a pull rope or whatever. When I watched the video I just thought good grief they would have been better off not showing the simulation.

I thought I read and posted before (have to verify) that even the naked suicide article claimed some high percentage, like 98%, of people who committed/completed suicide had previous mental health problems.

My mind keeps going back to my statistics days and thinking what would the odds she committed suicide if you put all these variable into a regression equation. I think next to nil.... .00000000000000001

But we do not know if she did or did not have any mental health issues. Her family would not necessarily know. People are good at hiding things.

She did have a recent shoplifting arrest. That may indicate some issues she was having. She was going through a divorce, changing her name, left her long time job, moved in with her boyfriend to care for his kids and his mansion. That is a tremendous amount of stress, especially when the boyfriend is a perfectionist with a bad temper.

I think it is possible that she had some ongoing stress problems and this tragic incident could have led to a total meltdown. If she was told, and rudely and coldly, that she was not allowed to come and see Maxie at the hospital, she was banned from doing so---what a devastating blow, imo.

She probably felt tremendous guilt and pain already, with Maxie going over that balcony while she was in the shower. Who wouldn't feel terrible? But instead of being comforted, now she was being blamed and banished.

I think that her suicide was planned just so, and perfectly arranged to keep people guessing. Maybe she wanted us to wonder if DS or JS or AS was the killer.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 07:41 PM
It was a "stick figure" and you're criticizing the height? Goodness me, how much taxpayer money did you expect LE to spend on something that was simply intended to illustrate what happened in an accident?

LE's findings was based on the evidence and the injuries. Ms. Bremner's planking scenario doesn't fit LE's findings.

It cost NOTHING to lessen the height of the figure which is supposed to represent the small victim. The way they drew the animation the adult male figure was tall enough to fall easily over the top of the railing. But I would like to see how a small child would do the same thing?

Quester
09-04-2011, 07:41 PM
New article on her hemorrhages. Even if AS dropped her on her head while cutting her down (which he doesn't say happened), she wouldn't have gotten those because but that time she would have been dead for hours, and Dr. Wecht says she would have gotten the injuries while she was still alive or minutes after her death.

"Even if (her) scalp hit bushes, that kind of impact would not produce subgaleal hemorrhage," Wecht said. "We're talking about contusions on the top of the head. So, even as the body is falling down – let's say there are branches – how do you get bruises on the top of the head as the body is falling vertically downward?"
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

Wow! Another omission from the press conference?

"Contusions on the top of the head."


And, this was an interesting quote:

'When you put all of this together, it just is bothersome' Dr Wecht told KFMB-AM.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033617/Jonah-Shacknais-lover-Rebecca-Zahau-tape-residue-legs-t-shirt-stuffed-mouth.html#ixzz1X1vrvGr2 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033617/Jonah-Shacknais-lover-Rebecca-Zahau-tape-residue-legs-t-shirt-stuffed-mouth.html)

katydid23
09-04-2011, 07:46 PM
I have a theory about Max's death that would make Rebecca feel guilty, even if she weren;t... if that makes sense? but then I don't necessarily think Rebecca committed suicide so I'm not sure how that all fits together. I will say my feelings on Maxs death were that it might not have been...intentional.. it wans't accidental either and that the person pushing him might not have had the forethought to see what could happen.

I have thought of a similar scenario. 13 yr olds and 6 yr olds can get on each others nerves. What if they were goofing around or bickering or running and rough housing and an accidental push created a tragic accident?

When my son was 6 and my niece was 13 they used to play fight a lot. My son liked to take her things and run. He would take her little purse and run away giggling and she would get mad and chase him and wrestle it back.

That made me wonder if little Max was doing mischievous things like that and that is why he was running down that hall so fast. :rose:

sdcali
09-04-2011, 07:46 PM
I just posted a link to a new article on this. Dr. Wecht indicates that she was still alive or minutes after death when those injuries would have occurred. He also doesn't think the injuries are explained by the hanging scenario.
"A renowned forensic pathologist said Sunday that injuries on the top of the head of Rebecca Zahau described in her autopsy are unexplained by the circumstances of her hanging death, which was officially ruled a suicide by the San Diego County Medical Examiner."
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

I would like to see a computer generated description of RZ's fall over the balcony and drop to her death. I wonder if they did any kind of reenactment with a "dummy" of similar height and weight...etc.

I would also like to know how tall the balcony railing is. I am certain there is a minimum height set forth in the Building Code as there are for bannisters and stair railings.

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 07:49 PM
Maybe MS was participating somehow while someone else was planking ?

When planking came up early on in this case we all viewed/discussed photos where two people were planking together, some on top of each other.

LE said there were no witnesses and only RN and her sister were in the house at the time. Is it possible they lied? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the evidence, which shows Max was propelled off that staircase and into the chandelier and opposite stair rail. If he didn't propel himself, then he was pushed or thrown. So the investigation Ms. Bremner might manage to reopen isn't Rebecca's death, it will be Max's. JMO

time
09-04-2011, 07:50 PM
Even if several inches are added to account for the rope being taut when Rebecca was cut down, the end of the rope still seems too high to reach, IMO.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rzbalcony.jpg

I didn't post the pic because it would blow the margins.


How many inches were cut off/still around her neck though? I may have my facts or perspective wrong, but I was sure LE said it hung down 9 ft?

katydid23
09-04-2011, 07:52 PM
LE said there were no witnesses and only RN and her sister were in the house at the time. Is it possible they lied? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the evidence, which shows Max was propelled off that staircase and into the chandelier and opposite stair rail. If he didn't propel himself, then he was pushed or thrown. So the investigation Ms. Bremner might manage to reopen isn't Rebecca's death, it will be Max's. JMO

I totally agree.

If Bremner is trying to change the scenario for Max's accident, and add the teen siblings and planking to the mix, then it seems that she is trying to change the focus from whatever made Max fly over the top of that railing.

If he was alone upstairs with RN's 13 yr old sister, then people are going to wonder what happened that created that deadly accident.

IWannaKnow
09-04-2011, 08:01 PM
BBM
Can any of the posters with medical background weigh in on this question of hurling oneself off the balcony with such force that it pulled the bed away from the wall and yet that force didn't break her neck? I wonder how the autopsy findings support this fact as well considering they know how she went over the balcony.

SunniRN can chime in on this, but if the knot is not tied and placed correctly, the person strangles to death. Supposedly if it is less than a certain number of coils, it will not break the neck. The knot also has to be in a certain place. So the height is less important than the knot and the placement, from what I understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangman's_knot

time
09-04-2011, 08:09 PM
I don't want to get clubbed on her for what I'm going to say, but it has nothing to do with Rebecca. It's something I feel should be looked into when looking at this as a homicide.

I think the way Rebecca was tied and with being naked and now with something stuffed in her mouth has a lot of aspects in common with sexual bondage/BDSM and/or Shibari. I'm not sure anyone one wants to check this out cause sometimes the images are disturbing. But is is very typical in bondage/domination scenarios for the person to be bound hands and feet naked and be gagged. I still can't tell if she was hogtied or partially, someone mentioned she was again today or yesterday. But, if she was, this convinces me even more that t his should be looked into.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. I am not saying this was a sexual crime in that she was raped. I'm just saying the scenario sure looks like it is bondage to me. I hadn't though about this much until I say the more elaborate ropes on her wrists, wrapped around so many times and hearing them say her ankles were the same. And, with a rope end that can be pulled to tighten (I think that is what was said).

katydid23
09-04-2011, 08:11 PM
There are lots of things which do not fit the suicide scenario. But there are also things which do not fit the homicide scenario.

The thing is, I can see how someone committing suicide might want to try and make this look like a murder. And some of the things that make it look unlike a suicide could have been done that way, just to make it look homicidal. Maybe she wanted to make it look like a murder as a way to get back on those who pushed her to suicide.

If it was a homicide, then why not make it look MORE like a suicide than it did. Why leave the ropes around the ankles and the arms tied together after the hanging? I would have used a ladder to remove those ropes before I left the crime scene. And why not leave a believable suicide note?

Pach
09-04-2011, 08:20 PM
thats the reason LE should have declared the cause of death as "undetermined" if only to be fair and intellectually honest about the evidence available. There must have been pressure to declare it as suicide since its the easier route, and remove the hanging sword over the usual possible suspects. Anyway, Rebecca's family has filed for re-investigation so we now wait for the next step from authorities.


There are lots of things which do not fit the suicide scenario. But there are also things which do not fit the homicide scenario.

The thing is, I can see how someone committing suicide might want to try and make this look like a murder. And some of the things that make it look unlike a suicide could have been done that way, just to make it look homicidal. Maybe she wanted to make it look like a murder as a way to get back on those who pushed her to suicide.

If it was a homicide, then why not make it look MORE like a suicide than it did. Why leave the ropes around the ankles and the arms tied together after the hanging? I would have used a ladder to remove those ropes before I left the crime scene. And why not leave a believable suicide note?

Quester
09-04-2011, 08:22 PM
LE said there were no witnesses and only RN and her sister were in the house at the time. Is it possible they lied? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the evidence, which shows Max was propelled off that staircase and into the chandelier and opposite stair rail. If he didn't propel himself, then he was pushed or thrown. So the investigation Ms. Bremner might manage to reopen isn't Rebecca's death, it will be Max's. JMO

I may have missed it but I didn't hear LE state "no witnesses" to MS' fall. I did hear LE state locations for RN and her sister/niece when MS' fall happened. I think it's strongly possible that LE has omitted revealing others who were present probably due to her/him being a minor(s).

I agree, MS may have needed some forward motion in order to reach the chandelier. He may also have been able to reach it by the standing/timber suggestion I made just up-thread. I think there are a very small number of people who know exactly how this very tragic accident happened. [Just my gut feeling.]

And, I still do think it's a possibility that MS was participating somehow while someone else was planking.

These cases may be a long way from being sealed and officially closed.

MOO

gemvt
09-04-2011, 08:23 PM
LE said there were no witnesses and only RN and her sister were in the house at the time. Is it possible they lied? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the evidence, which shows Max was propelled off that staircase and into the chandelier and opposite stair rail. If he didn't propel himself, then he was pushed or thrown. So the investigation Ms. Bremner might manage to reopen isn't Rebecca's death, it will be Max's. JMO

Precisely. There were no witnesses to Max's accident, so there is no way that anyone can be certain that he was planking, scootering, sliding down the bannister - no one saw what exactly happened. All LE could do was re-enact possibilities based on the injuries that were sustained.

I think that the rope looks to be "too short" in the shot taken after Rebecca had been cut down because her weight was no longer holding it down - cutting her down caused it to spring back.

The balcony is probably not of regulation height because this is a historical home. There likely were no regulations in place when it was built.

sdcali
09-04-2011, 08:26 PM
In searching for building codes for outdoor balcony heights, I came across this article.

The height is set at 42 inches, but it is reported that many are not that high. I know in my experience, in purchasing a home in CA, when an inspection is done and defects that do not meet Code, they must be corrected --that may be only true if the property will be purchased with a mortgage.

Whether the Spreckels Mansion's bannister heights and balcony railing heights are to Code IMO is part of the equation in determining whether RZ could have propelled herself over the railing with her arms tied behind her back. We have her height and we have the width dimension of the "disturbance in the dust on top of the railing" so where on her body did the railing come to? The top of her thigh? Her hips? Her waist?

I would like the answers to these questions....



http://articles.latimes.com/2003/apr/29/local/me-balcony29

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 08:27 PM
It cost NOTHING to lessen the height of the figure which is supposed to represent the small victim. The way they drew the animation the adult male figure was tall enough to fall easily over the top of the railing. But I would like to see how a small child would do the same thing?

No need to yell at me. I didn't prepare the video and LE wasn't obligated to prepare one at all. Their narrative included the mention that the railing on the stairs was only 20 inches high at the point they believe Max's momentum carried him over from the top floor. I don't believe LE is lying about the evidence or the boy's injuries. JMO

katydid23
09-04-2011, 08:29 PM
In searching for building codes for outdoor balcony heights, I came across this article.

The height is set at 42 inches, but it is reported that many are not that high. I know in my experience, in purchasing a home in CA, when an inspection is done and defects that do not meet Code, they must be corrected --that may be only true if the property will be purchased with a mortgage.

Whether the Spreckels Mansion's bannister heights and balcony railing heights are to Code IMO is part of the equation in determining whether RZ could have propelled herself over the railing with her arms tied behind her back. We have her height and we have the width dimension of the "disturbance in the dust on top of the railing" so where on her body did the railing come to? The top of her thigh? Her hips? Her waist?

I would like the answers to these questions....



http://articles.latimes.com/2003/apr/29/local/me-balcony29

However, I think that if a home is on the 'historical whatchmacallit' list, then it does not need to be modified to meet current codes. The electricity and those types of safety concerns must be updated, but some codes like balconies and stairwells can be kept the same as when built.

Paladine
09-04-2011, 08:30 PM
Any source except the Daily Mail? They are a true gossip rag, IMO...

They are also out of the grip of the media lockdown found in the US and Canada...IMO.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 08:31 PM
No need to yell at me. I didn't prepare the video and LE wasn't obligated to prepare one at all. Their narrative included the mention that the railing on the stairs was only 20 inches high at the point they believe Max's momentum carried him over from the top floor. I don't believe LE is lying about the evidence or the boy's injuries. JMO

I did not mean to yell. I think I was just replying in kind. And I do not believe LE is lying either. I think somebody else might have lied to LE in the first place, and they are repeating what they were told.

Paladine
09-04-2011, 08:34 PM
gotta read through, yet, just making sure this was posted:


Pathologist: Zahau’s head injuries unexplained by hanging scenario


Posted: Sep 03, 2011 12:33 AM EDT Updated: Sep 04, 2011 6:50 PM EDT

By David Gotfredson, Field Producer - email

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth?redirected=true

revampz
09-04-2011, 08:36 PM
I have a theory about Max's death that would make Rebecca feel guilty, even if she weren;t... if that makes sense? but then I don't necessarily think Rebecca committed suicide so I'm not sure how that all fits together. I will say my feelings on Maxs death were that it might not have been...intentional.. it wans't accidental either and that the person pushing him might not have had the forethought to see what could happen.

ellabella this is my theory as well, there are only 3 people who know exactly what happened in that house that day and 2 are deceased. I really dont think it was intentional, but I think something happened other than planking, running and tripping, sliding down the bannister....something that the family has blamed her for......and more than being in the toilet/bathroom......you dont commit suicide for feeling guilty for that, nor do you kill someone for that......no there is more to the death of max and I feel if the truth came out about that then maybe we can understand the suicide more and also maybe understand why someone may want to kill her.

I think either she or her sister were chasing him and he was pushed, or he was being chased on his scooter.

Paladine
09-04-2011, 08:42 PM
Maybe MS was participating somehow while someone else was planking ?

When planking came up early on in this case we all viewed/discussed photos where two people were planking together, some on top of each other.

I recall that, one appeared to me as an 'owl', of sorts...I found this picture...of 'planking' on a balcony.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 08:42 PM
ellabella this is my theory as well, there are only 3 people who know exactly what happened in that house that day and 2 are deceased. I really dont think it was intentional, but I think something happened other than planking, running and tripping, sliding down the bannister....something that the family has blamed her for......and more than being in the toilet/bathroom......you dont commit suicide for feeling guilty for that, nor do you kill someone for that......no there is more to the death of max and I feel if the truth came out about that then maybe we can understand the suicide more and also maybe understand why someone may want to kill her.

I think either she or her sister were chasing him and he was pushed, or he was being chased on his scooter.

I can see that scenario. But I do not think RN was the one chasing him. I think it is much more likely that the 13 yr old would be upstairs with him and chasing him. They even place themselves on different floors in the different bathrooms.

Also,the 13 yr old suffered some deep cuts from the broken glass and needed stitches. They said it happened when she was cleaning up the glass. I find that hard to believe. When would she clean up? Not while the poor child was lying unconscious. I think she was there immediately and was so shocked that she probably kneeled down next to him in the broken glass.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 08:45 PM
I recall that, one appeared to me as an 'owl', of sorts...I found this picture...of 'planking' on a balcony.

Some here have made a good point about the planking theory though. How would he end up out as far as the chandelier and pull it down if he fell from a prone position on the balcony?

I agree that he would have just fallen straight down if he were planking. I think he needed to be running to be able to recreate the tragic outcome.

curiousjo
09-04-2011, 08:47 PM
I don't want to get clubbed on her for what I'm going to say, but it has nothing to do with Rebecca. It's something I feel should be looked into when looking at this as a homicide.

I think the way Rebecca was tied and with being naked and now with something stuffed in her mouth has a lot of aspects in common with sexual bondage/BDSM and/or Shibari. I'm not sure anyone one wants to check this out cause sometimes the images are disturbing. But is is very typical in bondage/domination scenarios for the person to be bound hands and feet naked and be gagged. I still can't tell if she was hogtied or partially, someone mentioned she was again today or yesterday. But, if she was, this convinces me even more that t his should be looked into.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. I am not saying this was a sexual crime in that she was raped. I'm just saying the scenario sure looks like it is bondage to me. I hadn't though about this much until I say the more elaborate ropes on her wrists, wrapped around so many times and hearing them say her ankles were the same. And, with a rope end that can be pulled to tighten (I think that is what was said).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What was Dr Klein implying by his comment posted on July 15th in the Wall Street Journal article entitiled Girlfriend of Medicis CEO is found dead"
....."But Jonah never paid me and ceased to talk to me but as his wealth increased so did his satyriasis --- his excessive, often uncontrollable sexual desire. Maybe this was his desire to remain forever young. But this illness may very well account for what happened at the Spreckles mansion as it did for the action at Dupont Estate in Deleware."

- According to Wikipedia "Dr Arnold Klein is considered the father of modern cosmetic dermatology and has been in the forefront of the latest treatments in this field. He developed the gold standard for minimally invasive injection techniques for physical enhancements such as Botox, Collagen and Restylane. " And of course, he is known for his friendship and work for super stars, ex Michael Jackson (and you have to wonder if MJs oldest son is AK son since they do look a lot alike and MJs daughters mom is AKs assistant Debbie ...)

One would think that Dr Klein and JS run in the same circles- professionally and socially. You have to wonder what he really knows about JS. Obviously, he has some anger directed at JS, but I think he knows more....Were JS/RN swingers, JS/AS into bondage.... Did someone show up to play on Tuesday midnight ?

Someone mentioned a chair tipped over in ? bedroom? (not sure) pictures. Was that chair checked for tape remnants, blood.

revampz
09-04-2011, 08:54 PM
I didnt know that about the cuts on the 13 yr old...very interesting. Would they blame RN for something her 13 yr old sister may have done?? Remember the being in the bathroom was what was told to the police, no one knows except the 13 year old, the truth. Has it been officially confirmed that it was RN's sister in the house??? At the beginning there was no one else, then it was his sister, then it was 2 teens, and what happened to her? At first we were told it was his sister that called 911 and then she was removed very quickly from the home.

scorekeeper
09-04-2011, 08:54 PM
ellabella this is my theory as well, there are only 3 people who know exactly what happened in that house that day and 2 are deceased. I really dont think it was intentional, but I think something happened other than planking, running and tripping, sliding down the bannister....something that the family has blamed her for......and more than being in the toilet/bathroom......you dont commit suicide for feeling guilty for that, nor do you kill someone for that......no there is more to the death of max and I feel if the truth came out about that then maybe we can understand the suicide more and also maybe understand why someone may want to kill her.

I think either she or her sister were chasing him and he was pushed, or he was being chased on his scooter.

Is RN's sister safe???????

Paladine
09-04-2011, 08:55 PM
Some here have made a good point about the planking theory though. How would he end up out as far as the chandelier and pull it down if he fell from a prone position on the balcony?

I agree that he would have just fallen straight down if he were planking. I think he needed to be running to be able to recreate the tragic outcome.

Honestly, I don't think he was planking. I think something happened that caused him to go over the balcony and the 13 yr old was present. I think Rebecca wasn't. I think Rebecca was silenced to keep WHATEVER happened quiet. THAT'S what I think.

ETA: or...a fit of rage....after an accident...lower on my list.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 08:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What was Dr Klein implying by his comment posted on July 15th in the Wall Street Journal article entitiled Girlfriend of Medicis CEO is found dead"
....."But Jonah never paid me and ceased to talk to me but as his wealth increased so did his satyriasis --- his excessive, often uncontrollable sexual desire. Maybe this was his desire to remain forever young. But this illness may very well account for what happened at the Spreckles mansion as it did for the action at Dupont Estate in Deleware."

- According to Wikipedia "Dr Arnold Klein is considered the father of modern cosmetic dermatology and has been in the forefront of the latest treatments in this field. He developed the gold standard for minimally invasive injection techniques for physical enhancements such as Botox, Collagen and Restylane. " And of course, he is known for his friendship and work for super stars, ex Michael Jackson (and you have to wonder if MJs oldest son is AK son since they do look a lot alike and MJs daughters mom is AKs assistant Debbie ...)

One would think that Dr Klein and JS run in the same circles- professionally and socially. You have to wonder what he really knows about JS. Obviously, he has some anger directed at JS, but I think he knows more....Were JS/RN swingers, JS/AS into bondage.... Did someone show up to play on Tuesday midnight and RN got hurt?

I agree with your post. However after knowing Dr Klein from the Michael Jackson case, anything he says is suspect. Some people consider him culpable in Micheals death as he also precribed him propofil and dozens of other drugs illegally. In other words, he is a bit of a psycho. imoo

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 08:59 PM
I may have missed it but I didn't hear LE state "no witnesses" to MS' fall. I did hear LE state locations for RN and her sister/niece when MS' fall happened. I think it's strongly possible that LE has omitted revealing others who were present probably due to her/him being a minor(s).

I agree, MS may have needed some forward motion in order to reach the chandelier. He may also have been able to reach it by the standing/timber suggestion I made just up-thread. I think there are a very small number of people who know exactly how this very tragic accident happened. [Just my gut feeling.]

And, I still do think it's a possibility that MS was participating somehow while someone else was planking.

These cases may be a long way from being sealed and officially closed.

MOO

LE made it quite clear that RN and her relative were the only other people in the house at the time of Max's fall and they were in other parts of the house. Her relative is a minor. LE cited RN as their source for this information. There would be no reason for RN to lie about who was there and where they were at that point in time unless she or her relative was responsible. The investigation into Max's fall did not begin until after her death so the only source after that for cops would be the relative and if she told them planking, then she witnessed his fall and is trying to cover it up with a story that the evidence does not support.

Ms. Bremner's "source" can only be RN's relative. Whatever she says, the evidence and Max's injuries do not support planking. The child's body was propelled across that stairwell by either himself or someone else.

JMO

scorekeeper
09-04-2011, 08:59 PM
I recall that, one appeared to me as an 'owl', of sorts...I found this picture...of 'planking' on a balcony.

This may make more sense of him falling with his back hitting the light and the other/lower bannister and then falling face first onto the carpet/cement floor.....

instead of running, hitting the top stair bannister, flipping, hitting light and the lower bannister......that's a long way to propel a child; unless he was shot out of a cannon or slingshot.......

Paladine
09-04-2011, 09:00 PM
I didnt know that about the cuts on the 13 yr old...very interesting. Would they blame RN for something her 13 yr old sister may have done?? Remember the being in the bathroom was what was told to the police, no one knows except the 13 year old, the truth. Has it been officially confirmed that it was RN's sister in the house??? At the beginning there was no one else, then it was his sister, then it was 2 teens, and what happened to her? At first we were told it was his sister that called 911 and then she was removed very quickly from the home.

NOT as far a I'm aware. I remember it was reported to be GS early on, before the PR team was hired...I think it was Jonahs child from Kimberly...now, the son, ES, is 13 the daughter, GS, is 14, I posted links on thread 2 or 3, I think...

I do not think Rebeccas sister was there. I HOPE the Family straightens this out....

katydid23
09-04-2011, 09:01 PM
Honestly, I don't think he was planking. I think something happened that caused him to go over the balcony and the 13 yr old was present. I think Rebecca wasn't. I think Rebecca was silenced to keep WHATEVER happened quiet. THAT'S what I think.

ETA: or...a fit of rage....after an accident...lower on my list.

At this point I am torn between two scenarios. Either RN's niece was the one possibly involved in the accident, purely accidental, no malice, but a stupid action perhaps-- Chasing, roughousing, pushing etc.

OR

it is possible that the older siblings were the ones that were rough housing, planking, goofing around, teasing him, or something, anything that precipitated the accident. But they may have left the mansion just before Max fell. And JS worked to keep them out of the press and the LE reports.

dasqm
09-04-2011, 09:02 PM
I'm not sure I'm willing to believe a word this Anne Bremner says. I wasn't sure who exactly she was, so googled for a bit and am a bit stunned...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012832729_bremner08m.html


Oh, please! It's a DUI for .... sake. If everyone who drank and drove were picked up we'd have an epidemic. That was then; however, she is beyond that point in time & is considered a respected legal analyst. No one is without fault.....even you! Listen to what she has to say & you might just learn something.

Rhyme & Reason
09-04-2011, 09:03 PM
I just found out about this case on CNN.com; http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/09/02/california.mansion.deaths/index.html?hpt=hp_bn5 Evidently people here have been talking about it a lot.

All I know is that the little boy fell down the steps and died in an "accident". Also, that she was found hanging naked with her hands tied behind her back and they're ruling her death a suicide. :waitasec:

I'd have to see the hand tying, but I think the only person I know of who could tie their own hands behind their back would be Harry Houdini. The police said they found no poisons in her blood, but her live in boyfriend founded a pharmaceutical company.

Several things set off my hinky meter here;

How many people actually die falling down the steps? I saw a Forensics Files or something similar where a cop stated that almost nobody dies from falling down the steps. It's a Hollywood myth.

Why would she strip naked to hang herself? It doesn't make sense.

It seems there is a lot more to this than I know and I'm too lazy to go back and read eight threads so if someone could summarize the case for me I'd be much obliged. TIA

Also check out this article Steely

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

The tape residue & shirt in the mouth was never mentioned in Friday's PC. This News Channel 8 supposedly obtained the complete autopsy report after the PC. I also see now they are questioning some subgaleal hemorrhages.

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 09:05 PM
While I agree that might be Bremner's goal, it ain't gonna happen, imo. Nothing is similar to the OJ case. JS has not been charged with murder and LE says they have accounted for his location at TOD that has been ruled a suicide.

I don't see any Judge allowing a wrongful death case to proceed when it is a suicide and JS was nowhere near it plus there is no evidence he even spoke to her.

Been at a family reunion all day. Uggh...too much food and now I am trying to catch up.

I do believe you are correct and I don't know if that is Bremner's intentions or not but she isn't dealing with someone who is just going to rollover.

I don't know how Bremner can convince the court Jonah is responsible for Rebecca's death when he wasnt even on the property at the time. And suicide is a choice by the individual who made it.

I believe LE knows a lot more than they divulged so imo while I understand Rebecca's family being upset and wanting more answers .....pointing fingers is a very risky chance to take because if they keep it up then they will box themselves into having to back up those allegations and imo, they cant.

Neither Jonah or Dina are going to just sit here and take this for very long. Rebecca's family has to realize if they are incorrect in their speculations what they are doing is defaming and hurting someone who has already suffered an unimaginable tragedy of their own.

While the suicide was unusual I do believe the only proof anyone has points to suicide only. If Bremner files a civil suit then she has to have proof that either Jonah or Dina were responsible. That takes solid evidence .....not speculation. So I highly doubt one will ever be filed.

IMO

jjenny
09-04-2011, 09:05 PM
In addition to planking, there is "owling" where someone would sit in a owl position on whatever surface. Someone owling could lose their balance and fall I suppose. I wonder how sure LE actually is that the child had some momentum going at the time he fell.

Paladine
09-04-2011, 09:06 PM
LE made it quite clear that RN and her relative were the only other people in the house at the time of Max's fall and they were in other parts of the house. Her relative is a minor. LE cited RN as their source for this information. There would be no reason for RN to lie about who was there and where they were at that point in time unless she or her relative was responsible. The investigation into Max's fall did not begin until after her death so the only source after that for cops would be the relative and if she told them planking, then she witnessed his fall and is trying to cover it up with a story that the evidence does not support.

Ms. Bremner's "source" can only be RN's relative. Whatever she says, the evidence and Max's injuries do not support planking. The child's body was propelled across that stairwell by either himself or someone else.

JMO

They said 'her relative"? Where was that said and it sure seems to be evasive, imo....the boys next door saw GS playing outside w/max and a ball earlier that morning, according to a link I read posted here, earlier...would her boyfriends daughter be considered 'her relative'? I really need to hear from the Zahau's to believe this.

ETA: RN was the source???? And she's dead, ain't that convienant? Wow...I need to hear from the Zahau's, I hope we do.

IWannaKnow
09-04-2011, 09:10 PM
ellabella this is my theory as well, there are only 3 people who know exactly what happened in that house that day and 2 are deceased. I really dont think it was intentional, but I think something happened other than planking, running and tripping, sliding down the bannister....something that the family has blamed her for......and more than being in the toilet/bathroom......you dont commit suicide for feeling guilty for that, nor do you kill someone for that......no there is more to the death of max and I feel if the truth came out about that then maybe we can understand the suicide more and also maybe understand why someone may want to kill her.

I think either she or her sister were chasing him and he was pushed, or he was being chased on his scooter.

It was mentioned many times that Ocean, the dog, was hers. Allegedly "Ocean" was the last word Max said. Rebecca boarded the dog but didn't go to the hospital, JS called for him on 7/16. LE mentioned several times that Ocean was there the day Max fell and was sitting on the landing when they arrived. They made a point of that. There was a red dog toy bone right under the edge of the bed with the red rope she was hung and tied with and would have lined up with the edge of the bed perfectly if the bed hadn't moved. Paint and a paint brush make me think of painting a picture....Plus, Max wasn't breathing when found (Rebecca was gagged and strangled) and he had a cervical spine fracture (Rebecca falls 9' off a balcony...).

"She saved him..." could him be Ocean?

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8749.jpg

time
09-04-2011, 09:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What was Dr Klein implying by his comment posted on July 15th in the Wall Street Journal article entitiled Girlfriend of Medicis CEO is found dead"
....."But Jonah never paid me and ceased to talk to me but as his wealth increased so did his satyriasis --- his excessive, often uncontrollable sexual desire. Maybe this was his desire to remain forever young. But this illness may very well account for what happened at the Spreckles mansion as it did for the action at Dupont Estate in Deleware."

- According to Wikipedia "Dr Arnold Klein is considered the father of modern cosmetic dermatology and has been in the forefront of the latest treatments in this field. He developed the gold standard for minimally invasive injection techniques for physical enhancements such as Botox, Collagen and Restylane. " And of course, he is known for his friendship and work for super stars, ex Michael Jackson (and you have to wonder if MJs oldest son is AK son since they do look a lot alike and MJs daughters mom is AKs assistant Debbie ...)

One would think that Dr Klein and JS run in the same circles- professionally and socially. You have to wonder what he really knows about JS. Obviously, he has some anger directed at JS, but I think he knows more....Were JS/RN swingers, JS/AS into bondage.... Did someone show up to play on Tuesday midnight ?

Someone mentioned a chair tipped over in ? bedroom? (not sure) pictures. Was that chair checked for tape remnants, blood.


I don't know much about Dr. Klein at all except he is well known, but who knows, maybe he does know a lot about those who run in his same circles ... or many of them. It is kind of a creepy message about JS and even to say an 'illness'.

I'm thinking at the least, if someone murdered Rebecca that they knew about these things. Not sure she would have though. Interesting about the chair. I am going to have to reread some things. It may also indicate domination/control, humiliation and probably pain (?)- those are common themes in BDSM except both partners are also typically willing. I'm still looking at this as being done to Rebecca against her will. I don't know if someone just did this for a reason or was actually into it? But, if this is the case, the knew about these things.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 09:11 PM
It was mentioned many times that Ocean, the dog, was hers. Allegedly "Ocean" was the last word Max said. Rebecca boarded the dog but didn't go to the hospital, JS called for him on 7/16. LE mentioned several times that Ocean was there the day Max fell and was sitting on the landing when they arrived. They made a point of that. There was a red dog toy bone right under the edge of the bed with the red rope she was hung and tied with and would have lined up with the edge of the bed perfectly if the bed hadn't moved. Paint and a paint brush make me think of painting a picture....

If it were her dog, why did JS pick it up?

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 09:14 PM
Oh, please! It's a DUI for .... sake. If everyone who drank and drove were picked up we'd have an epidemic. That was then; however, she is beyond that point in time & is considered a respected legal analyst. No one is without fault.....even you! Listen to what she has to say & you might just learn something.

Learn what exactly? That getting drunk, driving on flat-tires and hurling insults at cops will land you in jail? I already know that even though I've never been arrested or driven drunk. Ms. Bremner didn't learn this life lesson until last year. JMO

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 09:15 PM
It was mentioned many times that Ocean, the dog, was hers. Allegedly "Ocean" was the last word Max said. Rebecca boarded the dog but didn't go to the hospital, JS called for him on 7/16. LE mentioned several times that Ocean was there the day Max fell and was sitting on the landing when they arrived. They made a point of that. There was a red dog toy bone right under the edge of the bed with the red rope she was hung and tied with and would have lined up with the edge of the bed perfectly if the bed hadn't moved. Paint and a paint brush make me think of painting a picture....

Yes, I believe you are right. The paint came for a tube of paint and those are used when painting pictures.

I ether dreamed it (lol) or read somewhere last night that Rebecca did artwork.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 09:18 PM
They said 'her relative"? Where was that said and it sure seems to be evasive, imo....the boys next door saw GS playing outside w/max and a ball earlier that morning, according to a link I read posted here, earlier...would her boyfriends daughter be considered 'her relative'? I really need to hear from the Zahau's to believe this.

ETA: RN was the source???? And she's dead, ain't that convienant? Wow...I need to hear from the Zahau's, I hope we do.

Yes, RN was the source. LE took a statement from Rebecca and her sister the day Max' accident happened, iirc.

IMO

thinkingstraight
09-04-2011, 09:22 PM
There are lots of things which do not fit the suicide scenario. But there are also things which do not fit the homicide scenario.

The thing is, I can see how someone committing suicide might want to try and make this look like a murder. And some of the things that make it look unlike a suicide could have been done that way, just to make it look homicidal. Maybe she wanted to make it look like a murder as a way to get back on those who pushed her to suicide.

If it was a homicide, then why not make it look MORE like a suicide than it did. Why leave the ropes around the ankles and the arms tied together after the hanging? I would have used a ladder to remove those ropes before I left the crime scene. And why not leave a believable suicide note?

It is this logic exactly that I have used to decipher the mystery. I honestly think she staged her suicide as a murder to make trouble for JS and/or his family. And it worked.

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 09:23 PM
NOT as far a I'm aware. I remember it was reported to be GS early on, before the PR team was hired...I think it was Jonahs child from Kimberly...now, the son, ES, is 13 the daughter, GS, is 14, I posted links on thread 2 or 3, I think...

I do not think Rebeccas sister was there. I HOPE the Family straightens this out....

Has Rebecca's family denied her sister was there?

IWannaKnow
09-04-2011, 09:23 PM
If it were her dog, why did JS pick it up?

Excellent question. Why would he even THINK of the dog on the day his son is pronounced dead? Especially since he didn't board the dog to begin with and in theory was at the hospital with Max when that happened. It would not cross my mind to call for the dog that day, of all days.
:cow:

time
09-04-2011, 09:25 PM
They said 'her relative"? Where was that said and it sure seems to be evasive, imo....the boys next door saw GS playing outside w/max and a ball earlier that morning, according to a link I read posted here, earlier...would her boyfriends daughter be considered 'her relative'? I really need to hear from the Zahau's to believe this.

ETA: RN was the source???? And she's dead, ain't that convienant? Wow...I need to hear from the Zahau's, I hope we do.


Here's the quote since the subject came up again:


She was gone by the time emergency crews responded to calls that her brother had fallen near the mansion's grand interior staircase.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2011/07/16/20110716arizona-ceo-dead-woman-coronado-mystery.html#ixzz1SKxOJZLV

I also remember LE phrasing it as only Rebecca's sister, Max and Rebecca were home when X arrived. I don't remember them saying that they were the only ones there when the accident occurred, but I might be wrong. Even if they did, perhaps others were wisked away and Rebecca was asked to say they were not there.

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 09:25 PM
It is this logic exactly that I have used to decipher the mystery. I honestly think she staged her suicide as a murder to make trouble for JS and/or his family. And it worked.

I am beginning to think you certainly may be right.

imo

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 09:28 PM
Here's the quote since the subject came up again:



http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2011/07/16/20110716arizona-ceo-dead-woman-coronado-mystery.html#ixzz1SKxOJZLV

I also remember LE phrasing it as only Rebecca's sister, Max and Rebecca were home when X arrived. I don't remember them saying that they were the only ones there when the accident occurred, but I might be wrong. Even if they did, perhaps others were wisked away and Rebecca was asked to say they were not there.

Yes, LE did say in the PC that the only two people there when the accident occurred was Rebecca and her sister. Rebecca was in a bathroom close to the staircase and they said her sister was taking a shower in another part of the mansion when Max fell.

IMO

Quester
09-04-2011, 09:29 PM
LE made it quite clear that RN and her relative were the only other people in the house at the time of Max's fall and they were in other parts of the house. Her relative is a minor. LE cited RN as their source for this information. There would be no reason for RN to lie about who was there and where they were at that point in time unless she or her relative was responsible. The investigation into Max's fall did not begin until after her death so the only source after that for cops would be the relative and if she told them planking, then she witnessed his fall and is trying to cover it up with a story that the evidence does not support.

Ms. Bremner's "source" can only be RN's relative. Whatever she says, the evidence and Max's injuries do not support planking. The child's body was propelled across that stairwell by either himself or someone else.

JMO

Sorry - I don't agree - on most everything you've stated.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 09:29 PM
It is this logic exactly that I have used to decipher the mystery. I honestly think she staged her suicide as a murder to make trouble for JS and/or his family. And it worked.

Considering were are told by LE her motive for suicide was this overwhelming grief over Max's injury, why in the world would she try to make trouble for JS?

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 09:30 PM
Excellent question. Why would he even THINK of the dog on the day his son is pronounced dead? Especially since he didn't board the dog to begin with and in theory was at the hospital with Max when that happened. It would not cross my mind to call for the dog that day, of all days.
:cow:

He had to pick the dog up, right? Didn't he return to Arizona the next day? If so, he had to pick up the dog before he went back. Who would be there to take care of Ocean?

katydid23
09-04-2011, 09:35 PM
LE made it quite clear that RN and her relative were the only other people in the house at the time of Max's fall and they were in other parts of the house. Her relative is a minor. LE cited RN as their source for this information. There would be no reason for RN to lie about who was there and where they were at that point in time unless she or her relative was responsible. The investigation into Max's fall did not begin until after her death so the only source after that for cops would be the relative and if she told them planking, then she witnessed his fall and is trying to cover it up with a story that the evidence does not support.

Ms. Bremner's "source" can only be RN's relative. Whatever she says, the evidence and Max's injuries do not support planking. The child's body was propelled across that stairwell by either himself or someone else.

JMO

BBM
Exactly. That is what is so interesting about the Z family attorney spouting this planking accident theory. The only source of that information left is the 13 yr old witness. But she was supposedly in the shower. So where did that story come from?

And why the sudden addition of the S siblings being in the home now too? What is the purpose of that ? The only reason I can think of is to cast some kind of suspicion upon them. imoo

scorekeeper
09-04-2011, 09:39 PM
Now we have to wait for the book

:waiting::waiting:

I want to read the interviews and witness statements.......if only this had happened in FL

Perhaps if LE had been more forthcoming with all the evidence and findings - they said they had an ironclad case - well they sure didn't present that version at the press conference.

Oh, remember the white item by the table in the earlier pictures of RN on the ground......that must have been a candle....according to LE

katydid23
09-04-2011, 09:40 PM
Considering were are told by LE her motive for suicide was this overwhelming grief over Max's injury, why in the world would she try to make trouble for JS?

Because her motive was twofold. She felt terrible about the accident, and probably felt some guilt. She was in the shower while he was falling from the upstairs balcony. that has to be devastating.

But then in her grief and sorrow, she is told that the child's mother has banned her from visiting the hospital. So apparently her bf did not stick up for her, but is taking his ex wifes side. And he may have even called and broken up with her on the phone that night. We do not know,but LE said there was an erased call. IMO, if it had been a loving call of concern, it would not have been erased.

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 09:41 PM
It is this logic exactly that I have used to decipher the mystery. I honestly think she staged her suicide as a murder to make trouble for JS and/or his family. And it worked.

It didn't work all that well, imo.

thinkingstraight
09-04-2011, 09:41 PM
Considering were are told by LE her motive for suicide was this overwhelming grief over Max's injury, why in the world would she try to make trouble for JS?

Did they say "grief"? I need to double check. Anger/pain/humiliation/sadness probably all factored into her state.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 09:41 PM
BBM
Exactly. That is what is so interesting about the Z family attorney spouting this planking accident theory. The only source of that information left is the 13 yr old witness. But she was supposedly in the shower. So where did that story come from?

And why the sudden addition of the S siblings being in the home now too? What is the purpose of that ? The only reason I can think of is to cast some kind of suspicion upon them. imoo

Actually most of us have been trying to figure out who the teenager in the house was from the start. There was that interview with GS's friend that claimed GS was in Coronado but left before paramedics arrived. So it's not a sudden addition. What I haven't realized until now that there possibly was more than one teenager staying at the house.

branwynbreeze
09-04-2011, 09:45 PM
No 100% sure if this applies, but wrongful death can be negligence, not providing a safe place for someone who is distraught or if he contributed to her deteriorating mental state.

California Court Permits Wrongful Death Action for Suicide Resulting From Tortious Infliction of Mental State

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1120147


Been at a family reunion all day. Uggh...too much food and now I am trying to catch up.

I do believe you are correct and I don't know if that is Bremner's intentions or not but she isn't dealing with someone who is just going to rollover.

I don't know how Bremner can convince the court Jonah is responsible for Rebecca's death when he wasnt even on the property at the time. And suicide is a choice by the individual who made it.

I believe LE knows a lot more than they divulged so imo while I understand Rebecca's family being upset and wanting more answers .....pointing fingers is a very risky chance to take because if they keep it up then they will box themselves into having to back up those allegations and imo, they cant.

Neither Jonah or Dina are going to just sit here and take this for very long. Rebecca's family has to realize if they are incorrect in their speculations what they are doing is defaming and hurting someone who has already suffered an unimaginable tragedy of their own.

While the suicide was unusual I do believe the only proof anyone has points to suicide only. If Bremner files a civil suit then she has to have proof that either Jonah or Dina were responsible. That takes solid evidence .....not speculation. So I highly doubt one will ever be filed.

IMO

IWannaKnow
09-04-2011, 09:47 PM
I believe that Max and Ocean were running down the second floor hallway from the back bedrooms Max on the inside, Ocean on the outside. Max intended to turn down the stairs, but Ocean didn't figure that out and kept running straight. Max might have then went flying over the bannister at the point that dips down on the other side of the newel post and the rest was as the sherrif dept said.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms03.jpg

In fact, that very scenario is mentioned here:
http://www.examiner.com/news-analysis-in-national/detailed-report-on-suicide-findings-death-of-rebecca-zahau

Detailed report on suicide findings in death of Rebecca Zahau
Joel Siegfried
September 3, 2011


It was assumed that the boy was chasing a soccer ball, and possibly tripped on it or the family's Weimaraner dog, colliding with the banister, and carried by his momentum, falling over the railing at approximately 10:10 a.m. PDT, as seen in the attached slide show of evidence photos and video clip which accompany this report.

This says "the family's" but I remember early reports pointing out that it was Rebecca's dog.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend?redirected=true

Questions remain after deaths of Coronado mansion owner's son, girlfriend

Posted: Jul 13, 2011 1:33 PM EDT Updated: Jul 18, 2011 8:24 PM EDT


Ted Greenberg, owner of Camp Diggity Dog, said Nalepa called the Coronado kennel last Monday, shortly after the boy's fall, to ask that someone pick up her 14-month-old Weimaraner, Ocean. She said her child was hospitalized after an injury.
There was even a picture of him in her tribute video. Misdirected anger could certainly be aimed at the owner...

http://www.meierhoffer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/zahau_rebecca.swf

Picture of Rebecca with Ocean in her tribute, but no members of the S. family that I recognize. A blond child at the beginning, but didn't really look like MS to me.

As a single woman who clearly had maternal instincts, I could see her thinking of Ocean as her child. Not that she did, but just sayin'....

IWannaKnow
09-04-2011, 09:48 PM
He had to pick the dog up, right? Didn't he return to Arizona the next day? If so, he had to pick up the dog before he went back. Who would be there to take care of Ocean?

Could have left him at Camp Diggity Dog.

scorekeeper
09-04-2011, 09:50 PM
If AS was at the mansion, did he also receive a phone call about MS's change in condition? Did he go to hospital then?

If not, LE said during the PC that JS did not know if they had that type of rope at the mansion....LE said there was a 'blank' space on a shelve in the garage that they believed the rope came from.....did AS hear RN in the garage????

RN retrieved the voicemail at 12:50....the initial report of loud music was around 1 or 1:30????

AS had to hear something.......but for some reason RN gagged herself to not make any noise....

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 09:51 PM
BBM
Exactly. That is what is so interesting about the Z family attorney spouting this planking accident theory. The only source of that information left is the 13 yr old witness. But she was supposedly in the shower. So where did that story come from?

And why the sudden addition of the S siblings being in the home now too? What is the purpose of that ? The only reason I can think of is to cast some kind of suspicion upon them. imoo

The only reason I can think of is to cast suspicion so that JS will pay her to shut-up. That might backfire badly because the re-enactment illustration by LE does not support planking. JMO

arielilane
09-04-2011, 09:55 PM
I was so glad to hear Dr. Wecht's thoughts on this case. I had hoped he would as I highly respect his professional opinion. This is extraordinary news.


Pathologist Cyril Wecht reviewed Zahua's entire autopsy report, obtained Friday by News 8.
"She has subgaleal hemorrhages; those are hemorrhages on the undersurface of the scalp. I see no reason why she should have those." Dr. Wecht said. "You get those when your head strikes something or is struck by something."
Wecht said the scenario described by investigators where Zahau used a rope to tie her own hands, feet and neck before rolling off the balcony of her boyfriend's Coronado mansion leaves many unanswered questions.
"Even if (her) scalp hit bushes, that kind of impact would not produce subgaleal hemorrhage," Wecht said. "We're talking about contusions on the top of the head. So, even as the body is falling down let's say there are branches how do you get bruises on the top of the head as the body is falling vertically downward?"
The autopsy report describes four hemorrhaging injuries under Zahau's scalp:

"I don't have enough to come right out and say this is a homicide. As a medical examiner, as a coroner, in my opinion the manner of death should have been left as undetermined. Sometimes we can't be sure and sometimes you leave it as undetermined because more investigation is to be conducted," Wecht said.
Wecht said Zahau's head injuries which caused bleeding underneath her scalp would have occurred while she was still alive or in the minutes shortly after her death. He said it is impossible to determine whether Zahau's head trauma would have rendered her unconscious.
"A blow or blows sufficient to produce subgaleal, subscalpular hemorrhage could be sufficient for someone to be knocked out, just temporarily, not to produce any damage to the brain, not to cause any prolonged unconsciousness; but one cannot say," Dr. Wecht said. "There are clearly (indications) of some kind of blunt force trauma. So, for someone to say there is no evidence whatsoever of any kind of a struggle is not correct."
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

Steely Dan
09-04-2011, 09:56 PM
Even if several inches are added to account for the rope being taut when Rebecca was cut down, the end of the rope still seems too high to reach, IMO.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rzbalcony.jpg

I didn't post the pic because it would blow the margins.

I resized it;

http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh396/Rfeynman/Ants/rzbalcony.jpg


While I agree that might be Bremner's goal, it ain't gonna happen, imo. Nothing is similar to the OJ case. JS has not been charged with murder and LE says they have accounted for his location at TOD that has been ruled a suicide.

I don't see any Judge allowing a wrongful death case to proceed when it is a suicide and JS was nowhere near it plus there is no evidence he even spoke to her.

I'm wondering if this wasn't a professional job, but if it was, it was done in a way that left a lot of questions.


I have thought of a similar scenario. 13 yr olds and 6 yr olds can get on each others nerves. What if they were goofing around or bickering or running and rough housing and an accidental push created a tragic accident?

When my son was 6 and my niece was 13 they used to play fight a lot. My son liked to take her things and run. He would take her little purse and run away giggling and she would get mad and chase him and wrestle it back.

That made me wonder if little Max was doing mischievous things like that and that is why he was running down that hall so fast. :rose:

It could have been a dare too. "I bet you can't jump from the bannister and swing from the chandelier to the other steps."

Quester
09-04-2011, 09:58 PM
The only reason I can think of is to cast suspicion so that JS will pay her to shut-up. That might backfire badly because the re-enactment illustration by LE does not support planking. JMO

Why are you expressing such venom toward Ms. B?

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 09:58 PM
No 100% sure if this applies, but wrongful death can be negligence, not providing a safe place for someone who is distraught or if he contributed to her deteriorating mental state.

California Court Permits Wrongful Death Action for Suicide Resulting From Tortious Infliction of Mental State

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1120147

It doesn't apply to this case. Her sister has denied RN was in a deteriorating mental state. It would be absurd for her sister to claim homicide and then turn around and sue JS for a suicide. I think it would literally be laughed out of court. JMO

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 10:01 PM
Why are you expressing such venom toward Ms. B?

Her actions disgust me. I don't like lawyers who try to profit from and exploit tragedies in the media. Especially when deaths of children are part of the equation. JMO.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 10:06 PM
I didnt know that about the cuts on the 13 yr old...very interesting. Would they blame RN for something her 13 yr old sister may have done?? Remember the being in the bathroom was what was told to the police, no one knows except the 13 year old, the truth. Has it been officially confirmed that it was RN's sister in the house??? At the beginning there was no one else, then it was his sister, then it was 2 teens, and what happened to her? At first we were told it was his sister that called 911 and then she was removed very quickly from the home.

That whole thing has been very murky. I remember we first thought it was GS, and the neighbor boys said that GS that was there but left before the EMT's arrived. I remember very clearly reading that because my son is an EMT and I found it very odd. But I googled and have not been able to find it anywhere now so ?

Then we were told it was RN's niece and or sister. I have seen both written in articles so I am still uncertain which it is. But when RN spoke to the animal boarder she told him her 'daughter' had been hurt in the accident as well. So either he misheard or she misspoke... or maybe GS WAS there at the time?

I just find it odd that an attorney would make such bold assertions about minors in 2 death investigations if it were not true. I mean that if their flight home left at 10 am that day then Bremner would not make such a statement, imo. The only way she would say this stuff publicly is if it were a possibility they were there at the time of the accident.

branwynbreeze
09-04-2011, 10:07 PM
It doesn't apply to this case. Her sister has denied RN was in a deteriorating mental state. It would be absurd for her sister to claim homicide and then turn around and sue JS for a suicide. I think it would literally be laughed out of court. JMO

You're more than welcome for your opinion, however I respectfully disagree about being laughed out of court. What was that message she received that was erased?

scorekeeper
09-04-2011, 10:07 PM
http://www.examiner.com/news-analysis-in-national/detailed-report-on-suicide-findings-death-of-rebecca-zahau-picture#slide=37073066

look at the picture of the door......

why is there orange rope in that picture??????? It looks like it is tied to the knob on the inside of the door........

Quester
09-04-2011, 10:08 PM
Her actions disgust me. I don't like lawyers who try to profit from and exploit tragedies in the media. Especially when deaths of children are part of the equation. JMO.

I'm not so sure that's what she's doing ... yet.

These two cases don't seem to be vault closed yet so it's too early to jump to your conclusions - of course, in my opinion.

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 10:08 PM
Could have left him at Camp Diggity Dog. He could afford it.

No mention anywhere that he couldn't afford it. Reports were that he picked up the dog and returned to his AZ home which was also the dog's home. No surprise there, imo.

SunnieRN
09-04-2011, 10:08 PM
I do not really feel that subdural he aromas could be caused by plants/trees, or by hitting the wall, as they were on top of her head, not on the side. This had to be from her being hurt.

So far this is ruled a suicide, but, she has wounds to the top of her head, a t-shirt wrapped around her neck, stuffed in to her mouth and tape residue on her legs.

These along with all the other unusual findings, should have at least entitled Rebecca to a more thorough investigation of how she died.

Who is now leaking information and reports, that were not even available as late as Thursday?

The wiki article on hangings that I Wonna Know, posted is excellent! In the hanging victims I have seen, all suicide attempts by the way, did not have broken necks, but had been without oxygen long enough that they were brain dead. I am sure it depends upon the knot and where it is placed.

Who will lose or gain if this is investigated more thoroughly?

As for who was there, I do not believe that the whole truth is known. I remember the statement during the PC, that 'someone close to Rebecca' was there, but IMHO, that could include any of JS children.

There are too many questions that deserve answers, before stating that someone took their own life.

I will look forward to hearing more revelations, as I think it is very telling, how many bombshells have come out since the PC!

katydid23
09-04-2011, 10:09 PM
Why are you expressing such venom toward Ms. B?

Personally, I detest her because of the bogus krap she spewed in defense of Casey Anthony. She was a talking head for the defense team and repeated those vile accusations against George, just for her paycheck. imoo

Steely Dan
09-04-2011, 10:09 PM
Her actions disgust me. I don't like lawyers who try to profit from and exploit tragedies in the media. Especially when deaths of children are part of the equation. JMO.

I sort of agree with that, but there are a lot of questions here. She may not be handling it completely right but she's doing something someone has to do. JMO

IMO, the child's death is 90% probable accident. Her death seems to me to be 90% homicide. There is so much the PD left out of the press conference that I have to believe it was on purpose because the other stuff definitely points to murder.

I will say that the more we discuss this I'm very slowly starting to think there is a remote possibility of suicide.

arielilane
09-04-2011, 10:13 PM
Isn't it safe to assume that RZ was hogtied because she was found with her legs bent. Rigor mortis sets after 2 hours or so after death. just sayin'.

arielilane
09-04-2011, 10:17 PM
It may not have been planking (probably wasn't). Just simply running, playing in that area and attempting to slide on the railing as another poster mentioned (like children do) is possible. A tragic accident that was no one's fault.

Steely Dan
09-04-2011, 10:19 PM
http://www.examiner.com/news-analysis-in-national/detailed-report-on-suicide-findings-death-of-rebecca-zahau-picture#slide=37073066

look at the picture of the door......

why is there orange rope in that picture??????? It looks like it is tied to the knob on the inside of the door........

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width_scaled/hash/c7/59/c759d542bad839454dbb86a04cbb6011.jpg
http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width_scaled/hash/c7/59/c759d542bad839454dbb86a04cbb6011.jpg

If it's been ruled a suicide why would they blank out the message. Supposedly it doesn't contain any vulgarity.


I do not really feel that subdural he aromas could be caused by plants/trees, or by hitting the wall, as they were on top of her head, not on the side. This had to be from her being hurt.

So far this is ruled a suicide, but, she has wounds to the top of her head, a t-shirt wrapped around her neck, stuffed in to her mouth and tape residue on her legs.

These along with all the other unusual findings, should have at least entitled Rebecca to a more thorough investigation of how she died.

Who is now leaking information and reports, that were not even available as late as Thursday?

The wiki article on hangings that I Wonna Know, posted is excellent! In the hanging victims I have seen, all suicide attempts by the way, did not have broken necks, but had been without oxygen long enough that they were brain dead. I am sure it depends upon the knot and where it is placed.

Who will lose or gain if this is investigated more thoroughly?

As for who was there, I do not believe that the whole truth is known. I remember the statement during the PC, that 'someone close to Rebecca' was there, but IMHO, that could include any of JS children.

There are too many questions that deserve answers, before stating that someone took their own life.

I will look forward to hearing more revelations, as I think it is very telling, how many bombshells have come out since the PC!

Agreed.

I'm trying to come up with a theory that would explain either scenario without and ridiculous questions being left over and I can't right now.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 10:19 PM
I do not really feel that subdural he aromas could be caused by plants/trees, or by hitting the wall, as they were on top of her head, not on the side. This had to be from her being hurt.

So far this is ruled a suicide, but, she has wounds to the top of her head, a t-shirt wrapped around her neck, stuffed in to her mouth and tape residue on her legs.

These along with all the other unusual findings, should have at least entitled Rebecca to a more thorough investigation of how she died.

Who is now leaking information and reports, that were not even available as late as Thursday?

The wiki article on hangings that I Wonna Know, posted is excellent! In the hanging victims I have seen, all suicide attempts by the way, did not have broken necks, but had been without oxygen long enough that they were brain dead. I am sure it depends upon the knot and where it is placed.

Who will lose or gain if this is investigated more thoroughly?

As for who was there, I do not believe that the whole truth is known. I remember the statement during the PC, that 'someone close to Rebecca' was there, but IMHO, that could include any of JS children.

There are too many questions that deserve answers, before stating that someone took their own life.

I will look forward to hearing more revelations, as I think it is very telling, how many bombshells have come out since the PC!

BBM
If you look at the picture of the balcony posted above, I think there are a few ways she could have hit the top of her head when she went over the balcony. She could have swung backwards and hit the metal braces. They would have been right on top of her head. Or she might have hit the top of her head on the bottom of the balcony if she was swinging and struggling at first. Even Dr Wecht admitted that it was still possible it was a suicide.

I do not think the tape residue is that damning. It is just an inch or so on each leg. that hardly seems like she was bound by a raging killer. It looks more like she taped her shins when she ran or worked out. imoo The t-shirt makes sense to me if she wanted it to look like a murder. Dr Wecht even puts that theory forward himself.

deanna82437
09-04-2011, 10:23 PM
I can see that scenario. But I do not think RN was the one chasing him. I think it is much more likely that the 13 yr old would be upstairs with him and chasing him. They even place themselves on different floors in the different bathrooms.

Also,the 13 yr old suffered some deep cuts from the broken glass and needed stitches. They said it happened when she was cleaning up the glass. I find that hard to believe. When would she clean up? Not while the poor child was lying unconscious. I think she was there immediately and was so shocked that she probably kneeled down next to him in the broken glass.

The sister stated on the Dr. Drew show the following:

PINSKY: Did you have any kinds of conversation with her in the days before this horrible thing happened? Was she in any sort of distress? Can you shine a light on that for us?

ZAHAU: Actually, I spoke with her the day of Max`s injury and the day after. The day of the injury, she called me to ask for my opinion, what to do with the injury that my younger sister had sustained while they were cleaning up the chandelier pieces.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/02/ddhln.01.html

I would assume this was after MS was taken to the hospital.

time
09-04-2011, 10:25 PM
Actually most of us have been trying to figure out who the teenager in the house was from the start. There was that interview with GS's friend that claimed GS was in Coronado but left before paramedics arrived. So it's not a sudden addition. What I haven't realized until now that there possibly was more than one teenager staying at the house.

Ditto on all that and as I remember some official source/LE said early on that GS went back to SC on Monday. Anyone have that source, we talked about it a lot.

scorekeeper
09-04-2011, 10:26 PM
Both the Shacknai and Zahau families cooperated fully, Sheriff Gore said. "I'm confident in the results of our investigation."

Gore said Jonah Shacknai is suffering a "tremendous tragedy" and trying to come to terms with it.

"He has accepted the results (of the investigation)," Gore said, adding that it was unfortunate that the Zahau family is unable to accept the same results.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/09/02/20110902shacknai-death-medicis-ceo-san-diego-police-findings.html#ixzz1X2ZsiXWa

BBM

If the Zahuas cooperated fully, does that mean they spoke with RN's sister?

Everything is JS, JS, JS.......what does DS think???????? MS was her son also.......

SunnieRN
09-04-2011, 10:28 PM
Please excuse any typos as I am on my daughters iPad, but looking at the length of rope under the balcony and allowing for drag, with 100#'s at the end of the rope, I don't see how she could have hit the top of her head on a support. Doesn't make sense to me.

Steely Dan
09-04-2011, 10:29 PM
Both the Shacknai and Zahau families cooperated fully, Sheriff Gore said. "I'm confident in the results of our investigation."

Gore said Jonah Shacknai is suffering a "tremendous tragedy" and trying to come to terms with it.

"He has accepted the results (of the investigation)," Gore said, adding that it was unfortunate that the Zahau family is unable to accept the same results.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/09/02/20110902shacknai-death-medicis-ceo-san-diego-police-findings.html#ixzz1X2ZsiXWa

BBM

If the Zahuas cooperated fully, does that mean they spoke with RN's sister?

Everything is JS, JS, JS.......what does DS think???????? MS was her son also.......

I want to know more about DS too. I'm not accusing her of anything but IMO a woman who's replaced by a trophy wife who's inattention causes the death of her only child must have some sort of anger for that woman.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 10:33 PM
The sister stated on the Dr. Drew show the following:

PINSKY: Did you have any kinds of conversation with her in the days before this horrible thing happened? Was she in any sort of distress? Can you shine a light on that for us?

ZAHAU: Actually, I spoke with her the day of Max`s injury and the day after. The day of the injury, she called me to ask for my opinion, what to do with the injury that my younger sister had sustained while they were cleaning up the chandelier pieces.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/02/ddhln.01.html

I would assume this was after MS was taken to the hospital.

When the EMTs arrived there are reports that 2 'women'--RN and her sis/niece- were taken away in a squad car. I imagine they were questioned and perhaps taken to the hospital? I don't know.

I do find it surprising that they cleaned up that horrible mess themselves. I would have hired someone. It must have been a bloody mess, sorry for saying that, but seriously. I doubt I could have done that myself. Don't they have a housekeeper or a staff in that 27 room mansion?

MyBelle
09-04-2011, 10:35 PM
That whole thing has been very murky. I remember we first thought it was GS, and the neighbor boys said that GS that was there but left before the EMT's arrived. I remember very clearly reading that because my son is an EMT and I found it very odd. But I googled and have not been able to find it anywhere now so ?

Then we were told it was RN's niece and or sister. I have seen both written in articles so I am still uncertain which it is. But when RN spoke to the animal boarder she told him her 'daughter' had been hurt in the accident as well. So either he misheard or she misspoke... or maybe GS WAS there at the time?

I just find it odd that an attorney would make such bold assertions about minors in 2 death investigations if it were not true. I mean that if their flight home left at noon that day then Bremner would not make such a statement, imo. The only way she would say this stuff publicly is if it were a possibility they were there at the time of the accident.

Didn't you just comment on Jose Baez's bold assertion that the father of his client sexually abused her? Wasn't Ms. Bremner quite supportive of such bold assertions?

Ms. Bremner isn't privy to any information about Maxie's fall or to where his siblings may have been nor does it matter. The accident wasn't due to planking. The illustration disproves that claim.

All Ms. Bremner has to go on is whatever the 13-year-old has told her. So, if that doesn't jive with what LE was told by Rebecca--and they made it very clear they were going by what Rebecca told them about being in the restrooms and who was there--then that makes RN a liar. I wonder how long it is going to take Ms. Bremner to figure this out.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-04-2011, 10:38 PM
Steely, we have had this conversation many times. DS has been asked about concerning many things that occurred and we discussed whether or not she was comfortable leaving MS with Rebecca. Also DS could not be found or reached for a few hours after MS's accident.

deanna82437
09-04-2011, 10:38 PM
"We saw the body from the roof," Prchal said Friday, adding that the image was

disturbing but hard to look away from. "Definitely."

Prchal said he is friends with Shacknai's eldest daughter, 14-year-old Gabriele. He

said he has talked with her several times since the death at her father's home, mostly

to make sure she is OK.

Prchal said Gabriele has not talked a lot about Zahau's death or the injury to her 6-

year-old brother. "It's kind of intimate," he said. "She doesn't want to talk about

them."

Gabriele was in Coronado until Monday morning, when she returned to her South Carolina

home, Prchal said. She was gone by the time emergency crews responded to calls that her

brother had fallen near the mansion's grand interior staircase.

Prchal said that the Shacknais were friendly and that Jonah Shacknai often walked with

his daughters and Zahau around town.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2011/07/16/20110716arizona-ceo-dead-woman-

coronado-mystery.html

katydid23
09-04-2011, 10:39 PM
I want to know more about DS too. I'm not accusing her of anything but IMO a woman who's replaced by a trophy wife who's inattention causes the death of her only child must have some sort of anger for that woman.

I tell you what--I would have been so livid. There are reports that JS was seeing RN before his marriage to DS ended. Some of the fights that we heard about between them concerned him leaving the house late at night after the kids were in bed. One time she held onto the car as he tried to drive away.

So imo, DS may have harbored a lot of anger towards RN before this even happened. DS once lived in the Spreckels Mansion, raised her son there.
So for little adorable Max, her only child, to die a horrible death while RN was in the shower? I would have killed her myself if it were my kid.


The only scenario that I can see with DS as the killer is if she called dam the brother, and asked him to do it while she and Jonah were at the hospital, with the cameras.

Bonepile
09-04-2011, 10:39 PM
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm173/walcatt/PhotoshopScreenSnapz001-43.jpg

Using the balcony as a height guide (Oh no he is doing it again) I am showing a person standing on the table reaching up to the cord and I can see there is plenty of height for that person (in scale) to cut the cord. Not knowing the height of AS I am only guessing but you can see even standing on tip toe you would be able to cut that cord.

Sorry for one more doctored photo. Thanks for viewing.

SunnieRN
09-04-2011, 10:42 PM
Definitely didn't hit her head on the balcony supports.

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 10:44 PM
No 100% sure if this applies, but wrongful death can be negligence, not providing a safe place for someone who is distraught or if he contributed to her deteriorating mental state.

California Court Permits Wrongful Death Action for Suicide Resulting From Tortious Infliction of Mental State

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1120147

Thank you but I think that is a big stretch.

How could he be responsible for her mental state? He wasnt there when Max had his fatal accident and he wasnt there when she committed suicide. He was at the hospital the entire time being with his baby son who he knew he was going to lose.

IMO

IWannaKnow
09-04-2011, 10:45 PM
I think ES/GS could have been there for the weekend and JS took them to the airport before MS ever fell. JS continued on to golf game and MS fell around 10:00 am. That would explain the conversations with the neighbor, and the neighbors report that they left before the ambulance ever got there. It could also explain why AB is talking about them being there. IIRC, they supposedly had a party that weekend.

http://www.10news.com/news/28579183/detail.html

ETA: IF they were there at all....

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 10:47 PM
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm173/walcatt/PhotoshopScreenSnapz001-43.jpg

Using the balcony as a height guide (Oh no he is doing it again) I am showing a person standing on the table reaching up to the cord and I can see there is plenty of height for that person (in scale) to cut the cord. Not knowing the height of AS I am only guessing but you can see even standing on tip toe you would be able to cut that cord.

Sorry for one more doctored photo. Thanks for viewing.

WOW! Bonepile that is a great demonstration. I have a feeling that Adam is rather tall. At least 6'.

IMO

katydid23
09-04-2011, 10:50 PM
Please excuse any typos as I am on my daughters iPad, but looking at the length of rope under the balcony and allowing for drag, with 100#'s at the end of the rope, I don't see how she could have hit the top of her head on a support. Doesn't make sense to me.

I think it depends upon how much she was swinging when she went over the balcony. I know when we used to rope swing from a big tree over the river so we could jump in, it was really dangerous because if you started swinging when you first latched on you would not be fully over the water. A body can cause a tremendous amount of force when swinging. imoo

Bonepile
09-04-2011, 10:52 PM
WOW! Bonepile that is a great demonstration. I have a feeling that Adam is rather tall. At least 6'.

IMO

Thanks OBE .. I read that somewhere but had forgotten. At least there is no slightly out of focus "body" in this photo rendering this time.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 10:52 PM
WOW! Bonepile that is a great demonstration. I have a feeling that Adam is rather tall. At least 6'.

IMO

Looking at this picture, if the rope ends where he cut it, I am assumng that is where her neck was roughly. IMO, there is a strong possibility her body could have swung back and forth with enough force to hit those supports under the balcony.

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 10:53 PM
Definitely didn't hit her head on the balcony supports.

Since the rope is so flexible she could have swung into the wall though and slammed her head.

I think Bonepile's demo photo is great. It shows how she also could have come in contact with the prickly tree/high bush too causing some bleeding since it would be contacting naked flesh.

IMO

katydid23
09-04-2011, 10:55 PM
I think ES/GS were there for the weekend and JS took them to the airport before MS ever fell. JS continued on to golf game and MS fell around 10:00 am. That would explain the conversations with the neighbor, and the neighbors report that they left before the ambulance ever got there. It could also explain why AB is talking about them being there. IIRC, they supposedly had a party that weekend. That was talked about in an Examiner link I posted earlier. Good reason for the kids to be up. IMO.

But if they left with Jonah earlier that morning, then WHY the heck would an attorney publicly say they were in the house when Max fell? Isn't that a flat out lie then?

sdcali
09-04-2011, 10:55 PM
Someone mentioned a chair tipped over in ? bedroom? (not sure) pictures. Was that chair checked for tape remnants, blood.

I was the one who mentioned it. It is in the bedroom pic that LE released. A wicker chair is seen tipped over on its side in the photo. Yet they said the scene showed no sign of disturbance (or some language like that). My reaction is: REALLY? A chair turned over is normal? hmmm?

katydid23
09-04-2011, 10:56 PM
Definitely didn't hit her head on the balcony supports.

I guess we have to agree to disagree because this picture makes me believe she could have easily swung into those supports.

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 10:56 PM
Looking at this picture, if the rope ends where he cut it, I am assumng that is where her neck was roughly. IMO, there is a strong possibility her body could have swung back and forth with enough force to hit those supports under the balcony.

I agree. As she went over the force and weight even at 100 pounds would make her swing and she certainly could have struck one of the supports and then her backside also struck the prickly plant underneath the balcony, imo.

IMO

curiousjo
09-04-2011, 10:57 PM
If rope swinging then I can see her hitting sides of head, but not top of head.

In the photo with orange rope to left of ajar bedroom door. I imagine that the bed is to the left of the door. So, orange rope attached to bottom of bed extends straight to balcony.

curiousjo
09-04-2011, 10:57 PM
I was the one who mentioned it. It is in the bedroom pic that LE released. A wicker chair is seen tipped over on its side in the photo. Yet they said the scene showed no sign of disturbance (or some language like that). My reaction is: REALLY? A chair turned over is normal? hmmm?

Can you find that photo?

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 10:58 PM
I guess we have to agree to disagree because this picture makes me believe she could have easily swung into those supports.

She certainly didnt jump off from this height and go straight down. She would swing in various directions until the rope finally came to rest.

IMO

Bonepile
09-04-2011, 10:58 PM
I think Bonepile's demo photo is great. It shows how she also could have come in contact with the prickly tree/high bush too causing some bleeding since it would be contacting naked flesh.

If the body was at that level you can see from the prickly tree/high bush those lower limbs would be at the level of her legs as they are at the level of the demo figure's legs. I wonder if the police looked at that tree/bush for blood drops or broken needles?

i.b.nora
09-04-2011, 10:59 PM
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm173/walcatt/PhotoshopScreenSnapz001-43.jpg

Using the balcony as a height guide (Oh no he is doing it again) I am showing a person standing on the table reaching up to the cord and I can see there is plenty of height for that person (in scale) to cut the cord. Not knowing the height of AS I am only guessing but you can see even standing on tip toe you would be able to cut that cord.

Sorry for one more doctored photo. Thanks for viewing.
Good work! We know from the plan drawings that had to do with the architectural proposed changes, that the height from the ground to the floor of the balcony is 11'0". We can estimate that the height of the garden table is about 29". I don't know if those are things you have already figured out.

katydid23
09-04-2011, 11:00 PM
If rope swinging then I can see her hitting sides of head, but not top of head.

In the photo with orange rope to left of ajar bedroom door. I imagine that the bed is to the left of the door. So, orange rope attached to bottom of bed extends straight to balcony.

But those metal supporting rods under the balcony could hit her on the top of the head if she swung backwards with any force.

arielilane
09-04-2011, 11:00 PM
BBM
If you look at the picture of the balcony posted above, I think there are a few ways she could have hit the top of her head when she went over the balcony. She could have swung backwards and hit the metal braces. They would have been right on top of her head. Or she might have hit the top of her head on the bottom of the balcony if she was swinging and struggling at first. Even Dr Wecht admitted that it was still possible it was a suicide.

I do not think the tape residue is that damning. It is just an inch or so on each leg. that hardly seems like she was bound by a raging killer. It looks more like she taped her shins when she ran or worked out. imoo The t-shirt makes sense to me if she wanted it to look like a murder. Dr Wecht even puts that theory forward himself. Dr. Wecht's final decision would have been "As a medical examiner, as a coroner, in my opinion the manner of death should have been left as undetermined. Sometimes we can't be sure and sometimes you leave it as undetermined because more investigation is to be conducted," Wecht said.

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 11:01 PM
If rope swinging then I can see her hitting sides of head, but not top of head.

In the photo with orange rope to left of ajar bedroom door. I imagine that the bed is to the left of the door. So, orange rope attached to bottom of bed extends straight to balcony.

But I think the force of hitting the wall or support could make the scalp bleed. It may have broken some blood vessels in the top of the head.

IMO

Carioca
09-04-2011, 11:01 PM
WOW! Bonepile that is a great demonstration. I have a feeling that Adam is rather tall. At least 6'.

IMO

Great imagery! But... Unless that is a kiddy table.. if a normal table it would reach to the person's knees
Average table height: 29 inches
Average male height: 5ft 10 inches
I measured the original in PhotoShop yesterday and came up with distance from table top to end of rope to be 11.5 feet
Even if AS is 6 feet, he would need really looooong arms to be able to reach with both arms AND cut imo.

curiousjo
09-04-2011, 11:01 PM
Is this the bedroom illustration with overturned chair? Good eye you have.....

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg

Could the rope have hit the chair when she jumped over the balcony railing and knocked it over, or was there a struggle? It it a whicker chair?

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 11:03 PM
Dr. Wecht's final decision would have been "As a medical examiner, as a coroner, in my opinion the manner of death should have been left as undetermined. Sometimes we can't be sure and sometimes you leave it as undetermined because more investigation is to be conducted," Wecht said.

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

I really see no reason to leave it undetermined when a respected ME has determined the death a suicide.

IMO

Bonepile
09-04-2011, 11:05 PM
Dr. Wecht's final decision would have been "As a medical examiner, as a coroner, in my opinion the manner of death should have been left as undetermined. Sometimes we can't be sure and sometimes you leave it as undetermined because more investigation is to be conducted," Wecht said.

But in their "rush to judgement" (even though it took them how many weeks?) I can see them taking the easy route out. I wish they had spent as much professional time with Rebecca's death that they spent with Max, and we might just have some more information to go on. I for one am simply not impressed with their investigation of the RZ end of this period.

jjenny
09-04-2011, 11:07 PM
Both the Shacknai and Zahau families cooperated fully, Sheriff Gore said. "I'm confident in the results of our investigation."

Gore said Jonah Shacknai is suffering a "tremendous tragedy" and trying to come to terms with it.

"He has accepted the results (of the investigation)," Gore said, adding that it was unfortunate that the Zahau family is unable to accept the same results.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/09/02/20110902shacknai-death-medicis-ceo-san-diego-police-findings.html#ixzz1X2ZsiXWa

BBM

If the Zahuas cooperated fully, does that mean they spoke with RN's sister?

Everything is JS, JS, JS.......what does DS think???????? MS was her son also.......

JS suffered a "tremendous tragedy?" But so is Zahau family. Seems all the concern by LE is toward JS. Is it because he is happy with the investigation and not pushing them to investigate further?

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 11:08 PM
Great imagery! But... Unless that is a kiddy table.. if a normal table it would reach to the person's knees
Average table height: 29 inches
Average male height: 5ft 10 inches
I measured the original in PhotoShop yesterday and came up with distance from table top to end of rope to be 11.5 feet
Even if AS is 6 feet, he would need really looooong arms to be able to reach with both arms AND cut imo.

I think Adam did exactly as he told police he did. So it was doable, imo.

Even Rebecca's family does not think Adam is involved. They say he took a poly and passed.

He was very honest imo. He is the one who told LE when he found Rebecca a part of the t-shirt was in her mouth. Adam imo is a very honest man who will probably never get over the image he saw that day.

IMO

scorekeeper
09-04-2011, 11:08 PM
Bonepile,

:tyou::tyou:

You are my idol!!!

score

and the three legged table didn't even tip over!!
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

arielilane
09-04-2011, 11:10 PM
I don't recall this view of the stairway. Sorry so small. I guess its my settings.

Bonepile
09-04-2011, 11:10 PM
Great imagery! But... Unless that is a kiddy table.. if a normal table it would reach to the person's knees
Average table height: 29 inches
Average male height: 5ft 10 inches
I measured the original in PhotoShop yesterday and came up with distance from table top to end of rope to be 11.5 feet
Even if AS is 6 feet, he would need really looooong arms to be able to reach with both arms AND cut imo.

I took into account at the bottom of that photo you do NOT see the bottom of the table legs. In scale there could be six inches or a foot more of table legs NOT seen .. and if my measurements are slightly off I apologize for that omission.

What bothers me is that no detailed drawings or artist renderings have been shown by the Sheriff to supplement any of their conclusions regarding RZ. Too much time spent on the boy .. too little time spent on RZ.

tiredblondy
09-04-2011, 11:13 PM
I wrote this last night and I'm going to say it again...the only way that note written on the door makes sense is if the author did not know that Max was not expected to make it!

As for the bleeding on the brain, it could have come from an attack of an intruder then someone who did not want to leave footprints on the balcony could have thrown her over. Someone with long legs would never have to step out there.

I really think there is so much more to this than we know and I suspect that if it was a murder then JS's family could be in danger. The paintbrush and the rope should have had fingerprints on them. Unless it was one act of revenge fueled by rage, revenge, jealousy,envy or some type of espionage I don't think we will ever know. However, they are making a mistake by not giving Rebecca's family more information!

Below is what I wrote last night and I will state again...the only way the words...She saved him, can you save her? make any sense to me is if the person writing that did not know the child was not going to make it.
They did not have the information that Rebecca did.

[my quote from last night]
Regarding the message painted on the door.."She saved him can you save her". This is my personal view on that...There is only one way it makes sense to me!

To me it sounds like a message to Jonah-
"She saved him" (Rebecca saved Maxie by doing CPR until the EMS could get his heart restarted. The person who left the note did not know Max would not make it.)

Can you save her?( almost like a taunt) Obiviously he couldn't and it was too late.

It sounds to me like a message to JS from someone who did not know Max was not going to make it. Someone who knew JS was at the hospital and would not be home.

That could be the reason the LE want to call it a suicide, because there is more here than meets the eye. It sounds to me like someone who wanted to shame, embarass and hurt JS, with no regard to Rebecca. Revenge, attack him while he's weak or down.

Rebecca's death in this way was just a method to accomplish this. It would have been easy to set her on the balcony then tip her over or throw her over.

I don't know but that is the only explanation I can see for the message.

It wasn't a message from Rebecca but from someone with a vendetta against JS. If there were a sexual assault and a murder maybe a profiler has recommended this way of drawing him out? I suspect it would make a person who had done something like this furious to think that they were saying Rebecca was responsible. They would have wanted JS to suffer and that he has but they would also want to humilate and shame him and hope he cannot function anymore.

I hope I've explained this so you can understand. I know what I mean, hope you do too.

That's my opinion only. [end of my quote]

Now let me clarify, If my theory is what happened I only have adults in mind! If the person I think is a possible perpetrator then we will never know because of JS's position...but I do think they are messing with the wrong family by not revealing more to Rebecca's family. Think about it why If my theory is true would they not be told and if they were told they would demand justice, which they deserve!

There's a lot going on here.

Has anyone heard if Jonah is going to step down from his current position?
I can't remember I've read so much about this case.

deanna82437
09-04-2011, 11:14 PM
Can you find that photo?

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

Page 15

jjenny
09-04-2011, 11:14 PM
When the EMTs arrived there are reports that 2 'women'--RN and her sis/niece- were taken away in a squad car. I imagine they were questioned and perhaps taken to the hospital? I don't know.

I do find it surprising that they cleaned up that horrible mess themselves. I would have hired someone. It must have been a bloody mess, sorry for saying that, but seriously. I doubt I could have done that myself. Don't they have a housekeeper or a staff in that 27 room mansion?

We've talked about this before. For being a millionaire, JS doesn't appear to have a lot of staff (or any staff, really-we haven't heard a thing about anyone working in the mansion).

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 11:15 PM
If the body was at that level you can see from the prickly tree/high bush those lower limbs would be at the level of her legs as they are at the level of the demo figure's legs. I wonder if the police looked at that tree/bush for blood drops or broken needles?

I don't really know Bonepile. Rebecca's body would be higher up since she was only 5'3?

But they did say that Rebecca had cuts and abrasions from hitting the plants and that really makes a lot of sense to me. Either plant looks like it has prickly rough edges so as she is swinging around her backside could strike them. Then as she hang there for 3-4 hours the small amount of blood would drain down due to gravity into her groin area and her legs.

IMO

curiousjo
09-04-2011, 11:16 PM
Adam ...will probably never get over the image he saw that day.

Totally agree. Finding a deceased person after anoxic event with blue colored face stays in your memory forever. Its shocking ..... I know, after finding a patient who suffered a pulmonary embolism at the hospital.

oceanblueeyes
09-04-2011, 11:18 PM
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

Page 15

I'm not sure that is a chair. It looks more like a vented laundry basket turned up on its side.

IMO

arielilane
09-04-2011, 11:19 PM
Was AS in and out within 24 to 48 hours. Just asking?

arielilane
09-04-2011, 11:21 PM
Bonepile,

:tyou::tyou:

You are my idol!!!

score

and the three legged table didn't even tip over!!
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
a rock star. :rocker:

tiredblondy
09-04-2011, 11:24 PM
Totally agree. Finding a deceased person after anoxic event with blue colored face stays in your memory forever. Its shocking .....

Trust me finding a deceased person anytime never leaves your memory.

arielilane
09-04-2011, 11:24 PM
I really see no reason to leave it undetermined when a respected ME has determined the death a suicide.

IMO I was impressed with the ME at the "sales presentation". I thought he was highly intelligent and spoke so the layman person could understand.