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Salem
09-06-2011, 11:42 PM
Please continue here.

Here is a link to the rules and tips on dealing with your fellow posters. Please take a moment to look the rules over. We have a lot of newbies here.

The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

ALSO - please remember, we do NOT sleuth minors, we do NOT post identifying information about minors, we do NOT name minors.

If a minor is a victim or has been publically named by LE as a perp, then their name may be used. In this particular case, the ONLY minor that may be identified by name is Max, because he was a victim. ALL other minors are OFF THE TABLE.

This is a strict rule and your cooperation is appreciated.

Thanks,

Salem

ETA: Further explanation on minor names. Even when quoting from MSM or other sources, if the minor is not the victim or the perp, we change the name to initials. We do NOT quote the name of the minor. This is to protect the minor. Please keep that in mind. Try to put yourself in the shoes of the parent of that minor. What would you think if your child's name was splattered all over the web.

Thanks Guys!


Thread 6

Thread 7

Thread 8

Thread 9



I am reminded of the Samantha Runnion case where she was snatched by Avila from the front yard while under her grandmother's care. It was mentioned many times that "if only" she had watched more carefully.....
It crosses everyone's mind-but in this case and in that case it seems as if reasonable care was taken and there is no issue with negligence. Bad things happen even under the tightest supervision.

So, let's not derail this topic with blame placing on Rebecca as it relates to the care of Max. Those that feel it is her fault-that's fine most of you have made your point and it is posted.
But we are not going to make it a talking point in this thread. Whatever really happened is a tragedy no matter how you slice it-so let's move on from blaming Rebecca it is just not constructive at this point. If that changes for some reason-the discussion may roll with that in the future.

HowLoveCanBe
09-06-2011, 11:47 PM
I agree the hair between the noose and the skin is something worth really looking into. At the same time if you have given up all hope and actually put a noose on yourself with the idea that the very next thing you are going to do is jump 9 ft - maybe you aren't thinking about your hair. What percentage of females with long hair that hang themselves do or do not adjust their hair?

SunnieRN
09-06-2011, 11:58 PM
Clipped from the dr. drew episode:
LISA BOESKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I live here in San Diego, and I`ve been following this case all along. And I will tell you, they truly do believe it is a suicide.

Now, I specialize in suicide. I`ve worked on hundreds of cases of serious suicide attempts and completed suicides. And I have more questions now than I did at the beginning of this case.

And I can tell you, suicide is usually a personal, private event. This was a very public act that happened. It appears aggressive, angry, vengeful, potentially humiliating.

We rarely see women nude. And the cryptic message, if you think about it, on the door, "She saved him. Can he save her?" If she had written that, wouldn`t it say, "Can he save me?"

You would think if she was guilty she would be writing things like, "Forgive me," or "I`m sorry," or "I deserve to be punished." So there are a lot of things about this.

And I think the key also is, when people have not made a suicide attempt, and they go to hang themselves, they almost always think of something to hang themselves from up above. So, a shower head, a pipe in a basement, something in a closet, a hook on the door. They wouldn`t think of the bed, jumping off the balcony, and as you said, these elaborate knots that are so complex and so complicated.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 12:05 AM
Also this:

Now, listen to this. Jonah Shacknai`s brother, Adam -- remember those knots? His brother Adam is a tugboat operator based in Tennessee.

Now, I don`t know this guy, but someone tied a clean hitch knot commonly used for dock tying and a slip knot with a red marine rope. One end of the cord was tied to the leg of a cast iron bed, anchoring it.

I mean, and you saw those videos of the elaborate nature of that rope work. It really looked like a block and tackle from a 16th century Schooner or something.

Don`t police need to be able to explain that?

HEGER: Yes. And what I want to know is, Adam Shacknai cut Rebecca down when he saw her the next morning. So his fingerprints and DNA would have to be on those ropes. Yet, law enforcement said on Friday the only DNA that was on those ropes was Rebecca. That`s impossible.

PINSKY: So the tugboat operator who says he cut her down, his DNA didn`t even show up on this. And law enforcement had no explanation for that?

HEGER: No. No explanation.

PINSKY: All right.

Kentjbkent
09-07-2011, 12:09 AM
Clipped from the dr. drew episode:
LISA BOESKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I live here in San Diego, and I`ve been following this case all along. And I will tell you, they truly do believe it is a suicide.

Now, I specialize in suicide. I`ve worked on hundreds of cases of serious suicide attempts and completed suicides. And I have more questions now than I did at the beginning of this case.

And I can tell you, suicide is usually a personal, private event. This was a very public act that happened. It appears aggressive, angry, vengeful, potentially humiliating.

We rarely see women nude. And the cryptic message, if you think about it, on the door, "She saved him. Can he save her?" If she had written that, wouldn`t it say, "Can he save me?"

You would think if she was guilty she would be writing things like, "Forgive me," or "I`m sorry," or "I deserve to be punished." So there are a lot of things about this.

And I think the key also is, when people have not made a suicide attempt, and they go to hang themselves, they almost always think of something to hang themselves from up above. So, a shower head, a pipe in a basement, something in a closet, a hook on the door. They wouldn`t think of the bed, jumping off the balcony, and as you said, these elaborate knots that are so complex and so complicated.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

Just wanted to add link.....

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/06/ddhln.01.html

Kentjbkent
09-07-2011, 12:13 AM
So in following this thread all evening, we have discussed guest bedrooms, ropes, nooses, tshirt, woman's clothing on floor, black paint, paint brushes, cryptic message, etc...

But I don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that autopsy report states there was tape residue on Rebecca's legs...but LE did not report this fact during press conference?

THoughts? How does this tape residue play into the various theories????

JEN HEGER, LEGAL EDITOR, RADAR ONLINE: I think the most stunning revelation is the fact that there was tape residue found on the back of Rebecca`s legs. And this was not discussed at all by the law enforcement at the press conference on Friday. There was also, as you said, strips of her T-shirt that were around her neck, might have been in her mouth at some point. This is very odd.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/06/ddhln.01.html

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 12:13 AM
This is from the autopsy report that was graciously downloaded in the other thread.

http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh396/Rfeynman/Ants/Cropped-1.jpg

What is it about a few items of women's clothing and makeup wipes being in the guesthouse. Am I reading that right? Sorry if this has already been posted but this thread moves too fast and if you walk away for a few hours you're way behind.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 12:16 AM
We have been discussing that, as well as the fact that LE did not state if they knew who the clothes belonged to.:waitasec:

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 12:18 AM
Clipped from the dr. drew episode:
LISA BOESKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I live here in San Diego, and I`ve been following this case all along. And I will tell you, they truly do believe it is a suicide.

Now, I specialize in suicide. I`ve worked on hundreds of cases of serious suicide attempts and completed suicides. And I have more questions now than I did at the beginning of this case.

And I can tell you, suicide is usually a personal, private event. This was a very public act that happened. It appears aggressive, angry, vengeful, potentially humiliating.

We rarely see women nude. And the cryptic message, if you think about it, on the door, "She saved him. Can he save her?" If she had written that, wouldn`t it say, "Can he save me?"

You would think if she was guilty she would be writing things like, "Forgive me," or "I`m sorry," or "I deserve to be punished." So there are a lot of things about this.

And I think the key also is, when people have not made a suicide attempt, and they go to hang themselves, they almost always think of something to hang themselves from up above. So, a shower head, a pipe in a basement, something in a closet, a hook on the door. They wouldn`t think of the bed, jumping off the balcony, and as you said, these elaborate knots that are so complex and so complicated.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

To me it's no coincidence that:
1. She was barred from the ICU
2. Her dog was boarded up
3. Her clothes may have been in the 'guest house'
4. She did save Max from dying immediately after the fall
5. She believed she might go to hell for taking her life - and would want to be saved by Max / or was hoping Jonah would come home and save her
6. She was tied to the bed - in knots - and maybe not for the first time
7. She jumped from the 'guest room'
8. She was found hanging outside the house as if she had no where to go

Possible?

jjenny
09-07-2011, 12:20 AM
This is from the autopsy report that was graciously downloaded in the other thread.

http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh396/Rfeynman/Ants/Cropped-1.jpg

What is it about a few items of women's clothing and makeup wipes being in the guesthouse. Am I reading that right? Sorry if this has already been posted but this thread moves too fast and if you walk away for a few hours you're way behind.

This how I read it too, and it had been discussed on the previous thread for quite some time. This question should be asked of LE.

elementry
09-07-2011, 12:24 AM
Here's the response of the ME concerning some facts left out of their presentation last Friday:


http://i54.tinypic.com/30c6k9g.jpg


Now I guess they're back to the bunker and wait for incoming......

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 12:25 AM
This how I read it too, and it had been discussed on the previous thread for quite some time. This question should be asked of LE.


We have been discussing that, as well as the fact that LE did not state if they knew who the clothes belonged to.:waitasec:

Thanks, I'll go back and look for the discussion.

Kentjbkent
09-07-2011, 12:25 AM
To me it's no coincidence that:
1. She was barred from the ICU
2. Her dog was boarded up
3. Her clothes may have been in the 'guest house'
4. She did save Max from dying immediately after the fall
5. She believed she might go to hell for taking her life - and would want to be saved by Max / or was hoping Jonah would come home and save her
6. She was tied to the bed - in knots - and maybe not for the first time
7. She jumped from the 'guest room'
8. She was found hanging outside the house as if she had no where to go

Possible?

JUst for my clarification...(not questioning you! :seeya:)

1. Do we know for a fact that she was barred from ICU?

2. I thought she called INQUIRING about boarding, but never showed up with dog? (per interview with boarding ctr owner)

6. She was tied to the bed in knots? and not for the first time?? :waitasec:

8. "...as if she had no where to go..."? :waitasec:

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 12:26 AM
So, knots. Remember when Rebecca first passed away, her sister stated what a wonderful and loyal friend she was? She talked about how she was learning to swim, to do a triathalon with a friend. She didn't know how to swim.

Don't think she would have knowledge of nautical ties.

Kentjbkent
09-07-2011, 12:26 AM
Thanks, I'll go back and look for the discussion.

Time to use all your well-earned speed reading skills obtained during the Casey trial.....:floorlaugh:

jjenny
09-07-2011, 12:28 AM
JUst for my clarification...(not questioning you! :seeya:)

1. Do we know for a fact that she was barred from ICU?

2. I thought she called INQUIRING about boarding, but never showed up with dog? (per interview with boarding ctr owner)

6. She was tied to the bed in knots? and not for the first time?? :waitasec:

8. "...as if she had no where to go..."? :waitasec:

1. We are pretty sure she was not allowed into the hospital to see Max.
2. She boarded the dog
6. This is a complete speculation on the poster's part with no evidence to back it up
8. Again speculation on the poster's part

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 12:29 AM
JUst for my clarification...(not questioning you! :seeya:)

1. Do we know for a fact that she was barred from ICU?

2. I thought she called INQUIRING about boarding, but never showed up with dog? (per interview with boarding ctr owner)

6. She was tied to the bed in knots? and not for the first time?? :waitasec:

8. "...as if she had no where to go..."? :waitasec:


I can address two. Her dog was picked up Tuesday morning and boarded at camp diggity dog, or some such.

The rest is hearsay, although a person who knows DS, (Chasing Halos), states that she refused to let Rebecca visit Max.

Curious Me
09-07-2011, 12:29 AM
Just saying - if you're going to write down in the report that you found these clothes belonging to a woman in the guest house bedroom then why not say whose clothes they turned out to be? Afterall, RZ was found naked.

Towelettes would have skin cells and dna, I'm pretty sure.

StJohn
09-07-2011, 12:30 AM
IMO, RN & her sister stayed in the guest house on Monday night, could be any number of reasons why, given the chaotic events of the day. Then, on Tuesday, Adam came into town, and her sister left town, so she felt she had to stay in the mansion. Going back to that big house alone, encountering the site of Max's accident, must have been nearly overwhelming. Then, JS tried to call while she was on the phone with her sister, call went to voice mail so JS left the msg about Max's condition.

Kentjbkent
09-07-2011, 12:30 AM
Here's the response of the ME concerning some facts left out of their presentation last Friday:


I'll replace with a smaller shot. Apologies.....


Now I guess they're back to the bunker and wait for incoming......


Wow.

WOW. WOW. WOW.

chasing.halos
09-07-2011, 12:30 AM
Here's the response of the ME concerning some facts left out of their presentation last Friday:




Now I guess they're back to the bunker and wait for incoming......

Completely and totally bizarre in how they are handling this case. Why is the autopsy so vague? The autopsy should be detailed enough so that subsequent "memos" shouldn't be necessary.

Surprised Jonah doesn't have an official response tacked on to this.

All just IMHO. Weird stuff. IMHO. :innocent:

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 12:31 AM
I wonder if the make up removers or clothing was even taken into evidence? Even if it was, I am afraid they are gone now, as the case is 'closed'.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 12:34 AM
Maybe LE never even bothered to ask? I certainly think LE should answer this question.

Ya think?? ;-)

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 12:34 AM
It would be useful to have a body diagram of RZ abrasions, cuts, contusions akin of the one LE did of Max. Why one of Max but not RZ?

It would be useful to have an illustration of Max falling over balcony onto chandelier that was height proportional.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 12:36 AM
It would be useful to have a body diagram of RZ abrasions, cuts, contusions akin of the one LE did of Max. Why one of Max but not RZ?

It would be useful to have an illustration of Max falling over balcony onto chandelier that was height proportional.

And if ME thinks RN might have hit her head on something after jumping of the balcony (to explain the evidence of blunt force trauma on her head), where is the modeling of that? After all this was a 9 feet drop, I doubt she was bouncing up and down, so what would the modeling indicate? Apparently it was not done.

Curious Me
09-07-2011, 12:37 AM
JMO, she had no idea she was being more than blamed for MS's accident. RZ had dinner with the two brothers after taking AS up to the hospital. It was a perfect time for them to question her about what happened or how she'd describe what happened regarding MS's accident. JMO, she might not have seen this coming.

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 12:38 AM
More puzzles...

Apparently medical examiner made a major typo in the "suicide" message ("YOU" instead of "HE")? Any other mistakes?

Could AS suitcase have been in one guest house bedroom but AS slept in the room with the unmade bed?

Could the clothes have been those of GS left behind from prior visit?

jjenny
09-07-2011, 12:40 AM
More puzzles...

Apparently medical examiner made a major typo in the "suicide" message ("YOU" instead of "HE")? Any other mistakes?

Could AS suitcase have been in one guest house bedroom but AS slept in the room with the unmade bed?

Could the clothes have been those of GS left behind from prior visit?

Anything is possible that's why LE presumably should have asked whose clothing those were, considering there was a naked woman hanging from the balcony. Did they ask? Did they test the clothing and make up removal toilets?

scorekeeper
09-07-2011, 12:40 AM
Just saying - if you're going to write down in the report that you found these clothes belonging to a woman in the guest house bedroom then why not say whose clothes they turned out to be? Afterall, RZ was found naked.

Towelettes would have skin cells and dna, I'm pretty sure.

Wow, you guys have been busy; took me forever to read all the post from 5:45 pm til now.......thanks so much for autopsy report!!

2 bedrooms in guest house. 1 with a suit case and made up bed (but no clarification as to whose suitcase or if anyone slept in this room)
1 with an unmade bed, woman's clothes on floor, makeup wipes and a glass with liquid....WTH

whose clothes?
whose dna on makeup wipes??
whose dna on glass???
whose dna on bed sheets????

c'mon LE, these questions should have been asked/answered - forensics 101...did they not want the answers????

did AS and RN sleep in this room together??? (sorry but this was my first thought 20 pages back.........)

did AS have a 'friend' over? If so, the statement that only AS and RN were the only ones at the mansion that night......was incorrect

Now, can someone get the interview transcripts???? They will probably make us all :crazy::crazy::crazy:

UNBELIEVABLE:banghead::banghead::banghead:

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 12:41 AM
JUst for my clarification...(not questioning you! :seeya:)

1. Do we know for a fact that she was barred from ICU?

2. I thought she called INQUIRING about boarding, but never showed up with dog? (per interview with boarding ctr owner)

6. She was tied to the bed in knots? and not for the first time?? :waitasec:

8. "...as if she had no where to go..."? :waitasec:

I don't know if it was a fact but it has been stated multiple times that Dina did not want her near the hospital.

I think I read that boarding couldn't happen immediately to due to vaccinations - so boarding ctr owner picked up Ocean next day took care of vaccinations and boarded dog

Many people seem to think that having experience with knots like these is ONLY possible if you are into boating. There is something called Shibari which also has to do with knots and beds and not with boating. I have read that Jonah had a real interest in Asian culture.

It seems like Rebecca had given up a lot to come and live with Jonah and was planning on making a life with him. Sure she could have gone back to her family - but I think she was overcome with sadness that Jonah was casting her aside and had more or less told her she would have to leave.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 12:43 AM
JMO, she had no idea she was being more than blamed for MS's accident. RZ had dinner with the two brothers after taking AS up to the hospital. It was a perfect time for them to question her about what happened or how she'd describe what happened regarding MS's accident. JMO, she might not have seen this coming.

This is what is so tragic about this case. I will preface this by saying that I do not believe this was a suicide. Having said that, I can not imagine the terror that Rebecca must have gone through. If this was someone she knew, there would have been pleading, anger, fear, despair. If this was a stranger, did she know why this was happening?

I can't imagine what must have been said, yelled, hurled at her. I wonder if she had thoughts that no one would even know she was murdered.

I would like to think this was fast, but unfortunately, with the music between 1 and 1:30 and the estimated tod at 3, she may have been terrorized for quite some time.

Rebecca, I hope you are at rest in peace.

elementry
09-07-2011, 12:44 AM
Completely and totally bizarre in how they are handling this case. Why is the autopsy so vague? The autopsy should be detailed enough so that subsequent "memos" shouldn't be necessary.

Surprised Jonah doesn't have an official response tacked on to this.

All just IMHO. Weird stuff. IMHO. :innocent:

There could definitely be political repercussions over this fiasco. I believe I read that Sand Diego has the 3'rd largest LE agency in the State. But this just seems like bush league comportment by the various offices. They must be at least a little embarrassed by how this is unfolding. I suppose LE bigs figured, based on the real dearth of reporting during the last 6 or 7 weeks, that the matter would just die off after their declaring it dead. The weak presentation has set up LE for some headaches it looks like. Sheriff Gore touted during the election that he was the most competent and able to run a major department. Questionable at this point.

elementry
09-07-2011, 12:47 AM
More puzzles...

Apparently medical examiner made a major typo in the "suicide" message ("YOU" instead of "HE")? Any other mistakes?

Could AS suitcase have been in one guest house bedroom but AS slept in the room with the unmade bed?

Could the clothes have been those of GS left behind from prior visit?

The ME looked pretty young to me. Maybe GREEN is the better word.

Theforeigner
09-07-2011, 12:48 AM
IS IT REALLY POSSIBLE THAT THIS IS A COINCIDENT???


I ran the odd and mysterious sentence "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER?" which Rebecca Zahau alleged wrote on a door prior to her alleged suicide, through an anagram program, and the anagram that popped up was:


EVASIVE HUSH MONEY CHARADES





EVASIVE

1. tending or seeking to evade; avoiding the issue; not straightforward
2. avoiding or seeking to avoid trouble or difficulties: to take evasive action
3. hard to catch or obtain; elusive
4.Tending to avoid speaking openly or making revelations about oneself.
5.Directed towards avoidance or escape; evasive action.



Hush money - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Magnifying_glass_01.svg" class="image"><img alt="Stub icon" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Magnifying_glass_01.svg/30px-Magnifying_glass_01.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/3/3a/Magnifying_glass_01.svg/30px-Magnifying_glass_01.svg.png

HUSH MONEY

Hush money is a slang term for a form of bribery, in which one person or party offers another an attractive sum of money or other enticement, in exchange for remaining silent about some illegal, stigmatic, or shameful behavior, action, or other fact about the person or party who has made the offer.[1]

The person or party who presents the hush money may be attempting to avoid criminal prosecution, a lawsuit (as sometimes in the case of an out-of-court settlement), a leak of information to the news media, or silence about a stigmatic issue within one's own community. The information being covered up may include illegal activity, such as drug dealing, or some personal secret, such as an extramarital affair. In some cases, a government agency may be involved in the offer of hush money in order to protect the agency's employees, politicians and their appointees, or a national government in its standing among other nations in the world.



Charades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CHARADES


Charades or charade is a word guessing game. In the form most played today, it is an acting game in which one player acts out a word or phrase, often by pantomiming similar-sounding words, and the other players guess the word or phrase. The idea is to use physical rather than verbal language to convey the meaning to another party. It is also sometimes called Activity, after the board game.

Though less commonly it was originally also used to indicate a riddle either in verse or prose, of which the listener must guess the meaning, often given syllable by syllable—see riddle. In France the word 'charade' still refers to this kind of linguistic riddle.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 12:49 AM
So, if they were this lacking in the investigation of Rebecca's death, what was missed in the investigation into Max's death?:banghead:

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 12:52 AM
I have read that Jonah had a real interest in Asian culture.

Do you have a link on the above? Only article I've seen on Jonah Shacknai and Asian culture pertained to feng shui.

http://www.wmagazine.com/beauty/2008/10/restylane_filler

scorekeeper
09-07-2011, 12:58 AM
As in any comprehensive investigation, some findings cannot be entirely explained," Lucas said in a statement. "None of the observations listed ... are inconsistent with the conclusions reached regarding the cause and manner of death of Rebecca Zahau."

The blood was not the result of rape but probably due to an intrauterine device or menstruation, Lucas said.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/09/authorities-release-more-information-on-coronado-death-but-still-label-it-suicide.html

BBM

BUT you (ME/LE) could tell us about the clothes, makeup wipes, sheets and glass found in one of the rooms..........DNA, DNA, DNA

A naked lady was found outside with a rope around her neck.....and you (ME/LE) didn't wonder about the items in that bedroom.....

Plumeria5
09-07-2011, 12:58 AM
Wow, you guys have been busy; took me forever to read all the post from 5:45 pm til now.......thanks so much for autopsy report!!

2 bedrooms in guest house. 1 with a suit case and made up bed (but no clarification as to whose suitcase or if anyone slept in this room)
1 with an unmade bed, woman's clothes on floor, makeup wipes and a glass with liquid....WTH

whose clothes?
whose dna on makeup wipes??
whose dna on glass???
whose dna on bed sheets????

c'mon LE, these questions should have been asked/answered - forensics 101...did they not want the answers????

did AS and RN sleep in this room together??? (sorry but this was my first thought 20 pages back.........)

did AS have a 'friend' over? If so, the statement that only AS and RN were the only ones at the mansion that night......was incorrect

Now, can someone get the interview transcripts???? They will probably make us all :crazy::crazy::crazy:

UNBELIEVABLE:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Great questions scorekeeper!

Score is:

Scorekeeper 100

LE/ ME 0

elementry
09-07-2011, 01:00 AM
Wow.

WOW. WOW. WOW.

This part of the medical examiner's office response is really wow:


Bruises on the right side of her scalp were also seen. These were relatively minor. Because there was evidence that she went over the balcony in a non-vertical position, she may have struck her head on the balcony on the way down.

-------

MAY have? Well, let's just assume and move on I guess! If the "may have" can also be "might not have", then what's their explanation?

And why didn't they go into this to begin with last Friday, instead of totally neglect it? 15 detectives and so many seemingly unlooked into pieces laying around after thy were done. It is bizarre.

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 01:04 AM
Or maybe the door message writer a teenager into Dark Harvest or Hazards of the Forest or paganism or Wiccan. The red dog bone, the red blanket, the candle, the black paint.

"In this book the relationship and love between Kismet and Deveraux deepens. But the threat of another vampire (who is insane) looms over Kismet. He comes to possess her mind and body more and more, which troubles Deveraux. Can he save her on time as she saved him once? Its touch and go for awhile, but it brings Kismet and Deveraux closer together (Also throw in a woman who tries to befriend Kismet,who is nasty...and a good wiccan and true friend who tries to help Deveraux and Kismet.) http://www.amazon.com/review/R1P9E7AENV2XYY

http://www.witchvox.com/books/dt_bk.html?id=1467
She saved him, now can he save her from herself?
Hazards of the Forest
Author: Kelly Dreyer
Publisher: Planning to self publish with print on demand.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:05 AM
What amazes me is the fact that LE felt this wouldn't be an issue. Do they think John Q Public is dumb? Unable to decipher an autopsy report, or realize that 1 and 1 should equal 2?

Amazing.

scorekeeper
09-07-2011, 01:06 AM
Sheriff’s officials said some of the information was not released during Friday’s news conference because there wasn’t enough time, and the medical examiner had to pick the most pertinent findings to discuss.

“We have full faith in our investigation and we stand by our findings,” sheriff’s homicide Lt. Larry Nesbit said Tuesday.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/06/autopsy-report-reveals-new-details-coronado-mansio/

Curious Me
09-07-2011, 01:07 AM
I need a break. There's all this new information that was never even mentioned in the PC.

Poor Rebecca, either way you look at it, she didn't have to die and in such a horrible way.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:08 AM
Sheriff’s officials said some of the information was not released during Friday’s news conference because there wasn’t enough time, and the medical examiner had to pick the most pertinent findings to discuss.

“We have full faith in our investigation and we stand by our findings,” sheriff’s homicide Lt. Larry Nesbit said Tuesday.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/06/autopsy-report-reveals-new-details-coronado-mansio/

:truce: Sounds like they are waving the white flag....lol.

katydid23
09-07-2011, 01:09 AM
Do you have a link on the above? Only article I've seen on Jonah Shacknai and Asian culture pertained to feng shui.

http://www.wmagazine.com/beauty/2008/10/restylane_filler

Well,if he used a Feng Shui expert in his mansion he didn't get his money worth.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 01:11 AM
What amazes me is the fact that LE felt this wouldn't be an issue. Do they think John Q Public is dumb? Unable to decipher an autopsy report, or realize that 1 and 1 should equal 2?

Amazing.

And even if we are that dumb, we have medical experts to explain it for us!

katydid23
09-07-2011, 01:13 AM
:truce: Sounds like they are waving the white flag....lol.

I didn't think so. I thought they were just trying to explain some of the things they left out. I have never seen a press conference where they went over every single detail of a Medical Report. So no surprise there, imo.

The tape has been easily explained. it is less than an inch on each leg, hardly enough to tie one to a chair.

Blood explained as well. Stuff like that opens at death, fluids are emitted. Nothing unusual, just nothing they felt necessary to say on public television. I don't blame them.

To me, a white flag means you are surrendering. I did not get that impression. I thought they were just trying to give more information to explain any unanswered questions out there.

Plumeria5
09-07-2011, 01:14 AM
Coronado is a beautiful, peaceful island. Quite a draw for tourists. A death and murder all in one week at the same house are not what the Chamber of Commerce was hoping for.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:17 AM
I didn't think so. I thought they were just trying to explain some of the things they left out. I have never seen a press conference where they went over every single detail of a Medical Report. So no surprise there, imo.

The tape has been easily explained. it is less than an inch on each leg, hardly enough to tie one to a chair.

Blood explained as well. Stuff like that opens at death, fluids are emitted. Nothing unusual, just nothing they felt necessary to say on public television. I don't blame them.

To me, a white flag means you are surrendering. I did not get that impression. I thought they were just trying to give more information to explain any unanswered questions out there.

What about the 4 injuries to the top of the head? How about the t-shirt gag, or the things that were uncovered tonight, like the items in the guest house?

I think they are surrendering figuratively by twice now making statements to tell the public what a great job they have done. That my friend is not routine.

sorrell skye
09-07-2011, 01:17 AM
Sheriff’s officials said some of the information was not released during Friday’s news conference because there wasn’t enough time, and the medical examiner had to pick the most pertinent findings to discuss.

“We have full faith in our investigation and we stand by our findings,” sheriff’s homicide Lt. Larry Nesbit said Tuesday.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/06/autopsy-report-reveals-new-details-coronado-mansio/

bbm

They claim there wasn't enough time????

That's gotta be the weakest excuse I've ever heard, along the lines of "the dog ate my homework".

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:19 AM
bbm

They claim there wasn't enough time????

That's gotta be the weakest excuse I've ever heard, along the lines of "the dog ate my homework".

CYA and damage control.

elementry
09-07-2011, 01:21 AM
Sheriff’s officials said some of the information was not released during Friday’s news conference because there wasn’t enough time, and the medical examiner had to pick the most pertinent findings to discuss.

“We have full faith in our investigation and we stand by our findings,” sheriff’s homicide Lt. Larry Nesbit said Tuesday.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/06/autopsy-report-reveals-new-details-coronado-mansio/

Now, back to the donut shop. Speaking of which, did I see donut crumbs in one of those crime scene photos?

Pach
09-07-2011, 01:22 AM
based on the discussions and the latest info released by LE, the cause of death has to be ---> "undetermined" at the very least, for the sake of intellectual honesty.

the only "good" reason I can think of for declaring this a suicide is expediency's sake because the evidence "can be tailored" or cherry-picked to fit the suicide scenario, and because if this is declared "undetermined" then the public will focus on the "usual" suspects, unfairly if I may add, unless the evidence is substantial enough to point to the suspect.

scorekeeper
09-07-2011, 01:24 AM
where, oh where is Detective Yuri Melich????:detective::detective:

Q: Okay, AS, you say you last saw RN at 8 PM. You say RN was at the mansion and you went to the guest house. Can you please explain to me the woman's clothes, makeup removal sheets, unmade bed and glass found in the 2nd bedroom of the guest house? We're gonna' give you a chance to change your story and tell us what really happened.......

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 01:24 AM
Do you have a link on the above? Only article I've seen on Jonah Shacknai and Asian culture pertained to feng shui.

http://www.wmagazine.com/beauty/2008/10/restylane_filler

Yes this is the article I read. But also factor in the fact that his GF is Asian (obviously this fact alone doesn't imply anything).

And factor this:
What was Dr Klein implying by his comment posted on July 15th in the Wall Street Journal article entitiled Girlfriend of Medicis CEO is found dead"
....."But Jonah never paid me and ceased to talk to me but as his wealth increased so did his satyriasis --- his excessive, often uncontrollable sexual desire. Maybe this was his desire to remain forever young. But this illness may very well account for what happened at the Spreckles mansion as it did for the action at Dupont Estate in Deleware."

This is totally speculation on my part and I could be totally way off.

justice be served
09-07-2011, 01:24 AM
I never saw the floor plans of the house but I have been outside of it. The garages are directly at the back of the driveway and i think the main house is opposite the garages.Upon leaving the garage, does one have to go through the courtyard to the main house? If so, why would Rebecca leave her message on the interior hallway if a person would first see her body hanging in the courtyard? Not knowing this answer but if someone could clarify I would appreciate it.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:25 AM
Or Columbo, or Kojak, or Perry Mason!!

sdcali
09-07-2011, 01:29 AM
I remember during the PC hearing LE say that RZ's clothes were neatly folded in the guest room. If her clothes were accounted for in the guest room, then they had no reason to question whose clothing was in the second bedroom of the guest house. Maybe AS had an overnight guest? I would imagine some kind of questioning would have been conducted over the clothing.

Perhaps the answers panned out and LE did not feel that information needed to be divulged. Just like so many other facts that were not divulged...

Plumeria5
09-07-2011, 01:30 AM
Or Columbo, or Kojak, or Perry Mason!!

Don't forget MONK!!!

sorrell skye
09-07-2011, 01:30 AM
Or Columbo, or Kojak, or Perry Mason!!

Or Charlie Crews!

jjenny
09-07-2011, 01:31 AM
Any overnight guest would be an witness. And thus pretty important to the case, no? But LE said that no one else was in the house but AS and RN, so that can't be it.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 01:31 AM
Don't forget MONK!!!

This is how it happened!!!!!!!

Norwegian
09-07-2011, 01:34 AM
From the time I go to bed to the time I get up there's been 10+ pages added to the thread.. and it is like this almost every day.

And every day I see this and think "something huge must have happened.. new information now.."

Nothing, but I'm very happy the case still draws much interest, even after the police conclusion.

All of you have very interesting viewpoints.

TorisMom003
09-07-2011, 01:34 AM
Rebecca apparently (according to the findings of the ME in the autopsy report) went over the railing on her left side causing the dirt/dust to be on her "anterior proximal left thigh". The damage to her neck was focused on her left side with the noose going upward on the right side. So let's say that Rebecca went over with her left side first instead of straight on head first. Wouldn't that mean that any injuries to her head from "hitting the balcony on her way down" be on the left side of her head instead of the right side as stated in the new and improved response from the ME/LE?

Also, based on the ME autopsy report that Rebecca went over the railing with her "anterior proximal left thigh" doesn't that not add up with the approximately 11 inches of dirt/dust that was disturbed on the railing? LE had stated that the approximately 11 inches matched up perfectly with Rebecca's waist measurements but it is not in the ME report that there was dirt/dust on her waist. The two do not match up and doesn't make sense to me.

I also have not seen this brought up but Rebecca was nude except for the long sleeve shirt wrapped around her neck and two bracelets on one arm and one bracelet on her other arm. I found that odd when I read that in the autopsy report. If you are going to bind your wrists wouldn't you remove something like a bracelet that would be in the way?

I also don't understand how AS could break off the table leg by moving the table to under the balcony. The legs on the table are secured from the outside of the table frame with bolts. It looks as if the table was pushed along with the force being applied to the one table leg that broke off or it was pulled along with the table leg that broke off being dragged on the ground. The table leg broke off from the top away from the table so that it would have to go underneath the table while it was being moved.

MOO

elfie
09-07-2011, 01:34 AM
Frankly they could start with a demonstration of the hand binding using the type of nylon rope that appears to be in the evidence photos. It is stiff and difficult to maneuver easily, unlike the type used in the video demonstration. Then, on to the computer graphic using scale representations of exactly how Rebecca was able to fling herself over the balcony, including the hops to get there. Better yet--using a modeling program that calculates for mass and gravity.

The whole exercise raised many more questions than it answered. Adding to that the most recent info that has surfaced...

sdcali
09-07-2011, 01:34 AM
I read the autopsy report and the only tattoed makeup found on RZ were her eyebrows and black eyeliner. Not eye makeup.

Also, I read someone (in the prior thread) said there was a red bath towel in the hall. The LE illustration identifies it as a towel, no size or color. The blanket, in the bedroom, next to the overturned chair, however, was red.

Did I miss a better description of the towel? :) TIA

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:35 AM
I remember during the PC hearing LE say that RZ's clothes were neatly folded in the guest room. If her clothes were accounted for in the guest room, then they had no reason to question whose clothing was in the second bedroom of the guest house. Maybe AS had an overnight guest? I would imagine some kind of questioning would have been conducted over the clothing.

Perhaps the answers panned out and LE did not feel that information needed to be divulged. Just like so many other facts that were not divulged...

Good point, but who would have left the guest house without clothes? And what kind of clothes were they?

scorekeeper
09-07-2011, 01:37 AM
I remember during the PC hearing LE say that RZ's clothes were neatly folded in the guest room. If her clothes were accounted for in the guest room, then they had no reason to question whose clothing was in the second bedroom of the guest house. Maybe AS had an overnight guest? I would imagine some kind of questioning would have been conducted over the clothing.

Perhaps the answers panned out and LE did not feel that information needed to be divulged. Just like so many other facts that were not divulged...

The guy was there because his nephew was serious injured, in a coma, in ICU; and he has a 'friend' over......if so, I don't understand this family AT ALL.
Why wasn't he at the hospital lending his support to his brother (the reason he flew across the country).......or why was he "really" there???????

I'm sorry, I'm not being short with you, sdcali; I'm totally confused by this investigation and findings......

thanks to everyone for my Mom's birthday wishes....

it's time for me

:offtobed::offtobed::offtobed:

score

jjenny
09-07-2011, 01:38 AM
Good point, but who would have left the guest house without clothes?

Not only that, AS only arrived that day. So if there was a guest it would have to be that night, making guest a witness. And LE stated there were only 2 people in the house, AS and RN, never mentioning any witnesses. So the idea of an overnight guest doesn't fit with what we know as far as I can tell.

Pach
09-07-2011, 01:40 AM
1.) Since LE seems adamant that it is suicide, I'm assuming they based their conclusion on the evidence they found. If so, such a suicide could also be one of the following:
a.) the usual voluntary suicide.
b.) a forced assisted suicide(i.e. murder).
c.) she was murdered first then the scene staged to appear like a suicide.

Has LE already eliminated scenarios b and c above already, and if so, what is their basis that "b" and "c" are impossible scenarios ???

2.) the weirdness factor of this case, the additional evidence finally revealed to the public, the many questions raised by posters , 3rd party experts and Rebecca's family is what made me think that "b" and "c" scenarios can be possible

3.) On the other hand, the evidence that points to a suicide is not necessarily evidence pointing to a voluntary suicide . take the black paint on Rebecca's body. that can be easily smudged on her body by someone else or...... it could be the obvious evidence that Rebecca indeed painted the message or..... was "forced" to paint the message.

sorrell skye
09-07-2011, 01:40 AM
I keep hoping for answers, but the more I learn the less I know.

Gee - that almost sounds Zen.

Unfortunately, there are two deceased people - one a beautiful little boy, the other a beautiful young woman. I'm not feeling very Zen right now.

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 01:40 AM
Does anyone know if the birth-control device she was using was meant to be there for long periods of time?

jjenny
09-07-2011, 01:42 AM
Does anyone know if the birth-control device she was using was meant to be there for long periods of time?

Yes, in fact for years, I believe. It's definitely a long-term solution.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:43 AM
In other words, if they were not Rebecca's clothes, someone has some explaining to do. But, since no one seemed to be concerned with the clothes, and I am sure they are not there any longer, we may never know. I think these detectives need to go back to school!

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 01:43 AM
I remember during the PC hearing LE say that RZ's clothes were neatly folded in the guest room. If her clothes were accounted for in the guest room, then they had no reason to question whose clothing was in the second bedroom of the guest house. Maybe AS had an overnight guest? I would imagine some kind of questioning would have been conducted over the clothing.

Perhaps the answers panned out and LE did not feel that information needed to be divulged. Just like so many other facts that were not divulged...

You are certain about this? Why aren't her clothes part of the drawings? Or in the photographs? If they were in the guest room and neatly folded with no signs of tearing - wouldn't this add to LE's case?

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:48 AM
That's why I asked what kind of clothing was in the guest house. Was it pajama pants and a robe? Was it a nightgown and slippers? Or was it pants and a top?

If Rebecca had gone into the mansion, showered and changed, then gone to the guest house as some theorized, she might have been made to undress there, prior to going back into the mansion.

Just throwing out one possible scenario.

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 01:50 AM
Sheriff’s officials said some of the information was not released during Friday’s news conference because there wasn’t enough time, and the medical examiner had to pick the most pertinent findings to discuss.

I wonder what would be the rush to judgment?

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:50 AM
Oh man, I know who we need!! Quincey ME!!

jjenny
09-07-2011, 01:51 AM
Oh man, I know who we need!! Quincey ME!!

Or Miss Marple! This whole story sounds to me like it came out of Agatha Chrisite's novel, does it not?

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:51 AM
Agatha Christie!!

Stella5
09-07-2011, 01:52 AM
I remember during the PC hearing LE say that RZ's clothes were neatly folded in the guest room.

Snipped by me... I don't recall LE addressing her clothes being found. A few days ago I posted details on my brothers suicide and he had his clothes neatly folded on the bed. Maybe you're remembering that?!?

jjenny
09-07-2011, 01:55 AM
Snipped by me... I don't recall LE addressing her clothes being found. A few days ago I posted details on my brothers suicide and he had his clothes neatly folded on the bed. Maybe you're remembering that?!?

I don't recall LE addressing it either. I've been wondering if they found them.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:56 AM
Too bad we don't have a printed transcript of the PC. I think it would be very interesting and quite helpful, as we would be able to track the additional information that has come out since Friday, and any new revelations that are still to occur.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 01:59 AM
I would also like to compare the answers given to reporters, with what we now know to be correct.

Is there a link to the complete PC? TIA

Stella5
09-07-2011, 02:00 AM
I don't recall LE addressing it either. I've been wondering if they found them.

I would imagine since they lived there from Memorial Day through Labor Day she probably had clothes all over the place and LE either couldn't determine what she discarded that night or previously. JMO from reading the reports and seeing the pictures, it didn't look like cleanliness and orderliness were top priorities. The dirt on the stairway carpet alone is a major ick factor to me.

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 02:02 AM
I would imagine since they lived there from Memorial Day through Labor Day she probably had clothes all over the place and LE either couldn't determine what she discarded that night or previously. JMO from reading the reports and seeing the pictures, it didn't look like cleanliness and orderliness were top priorities. The dirt on the stairway carpet alone is a major ick factor to me.

The AR does say the main house was very neat - maybe not exact words - but certainly not a mess.

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 02:05 AM
This is totally speculation on my part and I could be totally way off.

I appreciate your speculation on knots as related to bondage, Japanese or otherwise. Seems as logical a direction to look at as knots related to boating.

The former would suggest Jonah Shacknai, the latter to Adam Shacknai.

I'm also starting wonder about a group of Twilight-crazed "teens" acting out under a full moon, though teenagers would probably be sloppier....

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 02:05 AM
IMO, RN & her sister stayed in the guest house on Monday night, could be any number of reasons why, given the chaotic events of the day. Then, on Tuesday, Adam came into town, and her sister left town, so she felt she had to stay in the mansion. Going back to that big house alone, encountering the site of Max's accident, must have been nearly overwhelming. Then, JS tried to call while she was on the phone with her sister, call went to voice mail so JS left the msg about Max's condition.

Do you have a link supporting they stayed in the guesthouse? If they did why wasn't it cleaned up when the sister left? Why were clothes left on the floor. I could see clothes in a dresser or closet that were forgotten but it seems odd they'd be on the floor. JMO


It would be useful to have a body diagram of RZ abrasions, cuts, contusions akin of the one LE did of Max. Why one of Max but not RZ?

It would be useful to have an illustration of Max falling over balcony onto chandelier that was height proportional.

That's an excellent question.


There could definitely be political repercussions over this fiasco. I believe I read that Sand Diego has the 3'rd largest LE agency in the State. But this just seems like bush league comportment by the various offices. They must be at least a little embarrassed by how this is unfolding. I suppose LE bigs figured, based on the real dearth of reporting during the last 6 or 7 weeks, that the matter would just die off after their declaring it dead. The weak presentation has set up LE for some headaches it looks like. Sheriff Gore touted during the election that he was the most competent and able to run a major department. Questionable at this point.

I think this guy might have a hard time getting reelected. Did JS contribute to his campaign?


IS IT REALLY POSSIBLE THAT THIS IS A COINCIDENT???


I ran the odd and mysterious sentence "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER?" which Rebecca Zahau alleged wrote on a door prior to her alleged suicide, through an anagram program, and the anagram that popped up was:


EVASIVE HUSH MONEY CHARADES





EVASIVE

1. tending or seeking to evade; avoiding the issue; not straightforward
2. avoiding or seeking to avoid trouble or difficulties: to take evasive action
3. hard to catch or obtain; elusive
4.Tending to avoid speaking openly or making revelations about oneself.
5.Directed towards avoidance or escape; evasive action.



Hush money - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hush_money)

HUSH MONEY

Hush money is a slang term for a form of bribery, in which one person or party offers another an attractive sum of money or other enticement, in exchange for remaining silent about some illegal, stigmatic, or shameful behavior, action, or other fact about the person or party who has made the offer.[1]

The person or party who presents the hush money may be attempting to avoid criminal prosecution, a lawsuit (as sometimes in the case of an out-of-court settlement), a leak of information to the news media, or silence about a stigmatic issue within one's own community. The information being covered up may include illegal activity, such as drug dealing, or some personal secret, such as an extramarital affair. In some cases, a government agency may be involved in the offer of hush money in order to protect the agency's employees, politicians and their appointees, or a national government in its standing among other nations in the world.



Charades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charades)

CHARADES


Charades or charade is a word guessing game. In the form most played today, it is an acting game in which one player acts out a word or phrase, often by pantomiming similar-sounding words, and the other players guess the word or phrase. The idea is to use physical rather than verbal language to convey the meaning to another party. It is also sometimes called Activity, after the board game.

Though less commonly it was originally also used to indicate a riddle either in verse or prose, of which the listener must guess the meaning, often given syllable by syllable—see riddle. In France the word 'charade' still refers to this kind of linguistic riddle.

It's interesting but I'd think there would have been sheets of paper somewhere with practice on it. Unless she was able to come up with that in her own mind.


Sheriff’s officials said some of the information was not released during Friday’s news conference because there wasn’t enough time, and the medical examiner had to pick the most pertinent findings to discuss.

“We have full faith in our investigation and we stand by our findings,” sheriff’s homicide Lt. Larry Nesbit said Tuesday.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/06/autopsy-report-reveals-new-details-coronado-mansio/



bbm

They claim there wasn't enough time????

That's gotta be the weakest excuse I've ever heard, along the lines of "the dog ate my homework".

Who schedules these things and why? Aren't they supposed to be scheduled for enough time? Was it the labor day weekend that made time short? Then schedule it for Tuesday.

After skimming the previous thread about the guesthouse I have some questions.

Who's clothes were on the floor?
Why did they leave them there?
What were they? Dress? Panties? Shirt? All of those?
Why the makeup wipes?
What was in the glass of clear liquid?

Let's say AS had an escort over that night and didn't want to admit that to the police. It appears she would have left naked and taken her makeup off before leaving.

If they were RN's then why were they there and why didn't she take her makeup and clothes off in the house? If she was weirded out by the house due to the previous death why did she go back in and not commit suicide somewhere else?

Here are some other thoughts on different subjects;

The phrase there were no drugs in her body is misleading. I think there were no routinely detectable drugs in her body. Since JS had inroads in the pharmaceutical industry he may know of stuff that doesn't show up in routine autopsy blood tests. I seem to recall a Forensic Files on the use of a drug that paralyzes somebody to the point of even stopping their breathing and it's difficult to detect. It's used in anesthesia and I used to hand it out to the residents when I worked at the hospital. It has to be used very carefully so it only causes paralysis without shutting down the vital organs during surgery. If she was given this drug and died because her lungs were paralyzed it might look like she choked to death after the staging. I believe it has to be injected but it wouldn't surprise me if a needle mark was missed on the autopsy.

I've heard here that AS passed a polygraph but I haven't seen a link for it. Also, if he believes she's responsible for her own death he could pass a lie detector test whether it was true or not.

AS being a tugboat operator and the way the hands were tied is a very weird coincidence.

The idea of mooring the rope to the bed is odd too. If it were me I would have tied the rope to the balcony itself. JMO

Why was the "suicide note" written in the third person?

What was AS's relationship with RN like?

Why wasn't anyone else's DNA on the rope?

I originally thought that the sunshine laws in Florida were a bit intrusive into police and SA investigations but now I think every state should have them. I'd love to see the tape of the interview with AS.

All of that is JMO

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 02:09 AM
I never saw the floor plans of the house but I have been outside of it. The garages are directly at the back of the driveway and i think the main house is opposite the garages.Upon leaving the garage, does one have to go through the courtyard to the main house? If so, why would Rebecca leave her message on the interior hallway if a person would first see her body hanging in the courtyard? Not knowing this answer but if someone could clarify I would appreciate it.

This is speculation on my part - but I think she was being shuffled out of the house and Jonah's life - and was told to stay in the guest house. It's no coincidence that she jumped from the guest room and that she left her mark on the door there. She may also have been simply waiting in the guest room for a while before jumping and hoping that Jonah would find her in that time period. That's the only way she was going to be walking out of that room.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 02:13 AM
I would imagine since they lived there from Memorial Day through Labor Day she probably had clothes all over the place and LE either couldn't determine what she discarded that night or previously. JMO from reading the reports and seeing the pictures, it didn't look like cleanliness and orderliness were top priorities. The dirt on the stairway carpet alone is a major ick factor to me.

Well I think it's a no brainer: if a naked woman is hanging from the balcony and female clothing is found in the room, I would expect LE to at least question where the clothing came from.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 02:14 AM
There could definitely be political repercussions over this fiasco. I believe I read that Sand Diego has the 3'rd largest LE agency in the State. But this just seems like bush league comportment by the various offices. They must be at least a little embarrassed by how this is unfolding. I suppose LE bigs figured, based on the real dearth of reporting during the last 6 or 7 weeks, that the matter would just die off after their declaring it dead. The weak presentation has set up LE for some headaches it looks like. Sheriff Gore touted during the election that he was the most competent and able to run a major department. Questionable at this point.

I think that LE are a bit surprised at the reaction. I'm surprised at how well-orchestrated it is and how identical the message points seem to be. I expect LE will launch an investigation into the agendas of those claiming only to want justice.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 02:17 AM
I think that LE are a bit surprised at the reaction. I'm surprised at how well-orchestrated it is and how identical the message points seem to be. I expect LE will launch an investigation into the agendas of those claiming only to want justice.

JMO

I hope this occurs for all involved.

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 02:19 AM
I remember during the PC hearing LE say that RZ's clothes were neatly folded in the guest room. If her clothes were accounted for in the guest room, then they had no reason to question whose clothing was in the second bedroom of the guest house. Maybe AS had an overnight guest? I would imagine some kind of questioning would have been conducted over the clothing.

Perhaps the answers panned out and LE did not feel that information needed to be divulged. Just like so many other facts that were not divulged...

BBM

That might be the value of a PR firm. Asking the Sherrif why this or that needs to be divulged if they are ruling it a suicide?


Or Charlie Crews!

Ellery Queen!


The guy was there because his nephew was serious injured, in a coma, in ICU; and he has a 'friend' over......if so, I don't understand this family AT ALL.
Why wasn't he at the hospital lending his support to his brother (the reason he flew across the country).......or why was he "really" there???????

I'm sorry, I'm not being short with you, sdcali; I'm totally confused by this investigation and findings......

thanks to everyone for my Mom's birthday wishes....

it's time for me

:offtobed::offtobed::offtobed:

score

Very good question, why was he there?

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 02:21 AM
So, if they were this lacking in the investigation of Rebecca's death, what was missed in the investigation into Max's death?:banghead:

One thing that wasn't missed in Maxie's death is how he fell based on the evidence. LE got that right. He was propelled off the second floor.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 02:23 AM
Well I think it's a no brainer: if a naked woman is hanging from the balcony and female clothing is found in the room, I would expect LE to at least question where the clothing came from.

Question whom?

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 02:23 AM
Interesting point about the PR firm Steely. Kind of like pre damage control on steroids. Makes perfect sense in this scenario!!

With San Diego and JS having the same PR company, it's a no brainer.

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 02:25 AM
Question whom?

I think she means AS or just in general.

Stella5
09-07-2011, 02:25 AM
Well I think it's a no brainer: if a naked woman is hanging from the balcony and female clothing is found in the room, I would expect LE to at least question where the clothing came from.

I would imagine they did, we just don't know. IMO those 19 pages are not the full and complete report. Most of the report was the autopsy, with a few narratives from LE. I'm sure we haven't seen all of them, nor have we seen any witness statements and there should be at least 3 of those.

time
09-07-2011, 02:26 AM
The phrase there were no drugs in her body is misleading. I think there were no routinely detectable drugs in her body. Since JS had inroads in the pharmaceutical industry he may know of stuff that doesn't show up in routine autopsy blood tests. I seem to recall a Forensic Files on the use of a drug that paralyzes somebody to the point of even stopping their breathing and it's difficult to detect. It's used in anesthesia and I used to hand it out to the residents when I worked at the hospital. It has to be used very carefully so it only causes paralysis without shutting down the vital organs during surgery. If she was given this drug and died because her lungs were paralyzed it might look like she choked to death after the staging. I believe it has to be injected but it wouldn't surprise me if a needle mark was missed on the autopsy.
..<snipped>
All of that is JMO


I wondered about other drugs also. Now I am curious about the bleeding. Are th ere drugs that could have caused vaginal bleeding - of course, I doubt they would have been tested for in the standard fare

And, they can't tell the difference between a woman on her period and problems from and IUD?

jjenny
09-07-2011, 02:27 AM
I would imagine they did, we just don't know. IMO those 19 pages are not the full and complete report. Most of the report was the autopsy, with a few narratives from LE. I'm sure we haven't seen all of them, nor have we seen any witness statements and there should be at least 3 of those.

Well if they did, I sure would like to know the answer.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 02:28 AM
Question whom?

I would think that JS would have recognized if the clothes did or didn't belong to Rebecca and AS could have stated whether they were the clothes shewore to dinner that evening.

I think knowing whether they were even Rebecca's would have been important.

If no one could confirm or deny this, they were dirty and would have contained DNA. I think Rebecca being naked, would have constituted a reason for at least being interested.

SmoothOperator
09-07-2011, 02:29 AM
Could someone post where I might find the autopsy report that this screen shot came from?

http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh396/Rfeynman/Ants/Cropped-1.jpg

TIA.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 02:30 AM
Could someone post where I might find the autopsy report that this screen shot came from?
http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh396/Rfeynman/Ants/Cropped-1.jpg

TIA.

It's posted somewhere on the previous thread.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 02:31 AM
That's why I asked what kind of clothing was in the guest house. Was it pajama pants and a robe? Was it a nightgown and slippers? Or was it pants and a top?

If Rebecca had gone into the mansion, showered and changed, then gone to the guest house as some theorized, she might have been made to undress there, prior to going back into the mansion.

Just throwing out one possible scenario.

Do the clothes really matter? JS' daughter evidently left the house that morning, maybe it was her stuff and she expected somebody would clean up after her? Or it could have belonged to RN's sister. Or it could be RN's things. That broken chandelier would have left the carpet embedded with shards of glass, making the area pretty unsafe until carpet was replaced, thus the need for everyone to sleep at the guesthouse.

I still believe it was a suicide and the ME has provided pretty reasonable explanations.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 02:33 AM
I wondered about other drugs also. Now I am curious about the bleeding.

And, they can't tell the difference between a woman on her period and problems from and IUD?

This made absolutely no sense to me at all. This tells me they didn't even try to figure out which it was. Of course that brings us to another point. How many women have committed suicide naked, while on their period? I bet I know the answer to this one. A big fat ZERO!!

snapdragon2
09-07-2011, 02:33 AM
So, knots. Remember when Rebecca first passed away, her sister stated what a wonderful and loyal friend she was? She talked about how she was learning to swim, to do a triathalon with a friend. She didn't know how to swim.

Don't think she would have knowledge of nautical ties.

Do you have to be a swimmer to know how to do nautical ties?! I know how to swim, and I don't know how to do nautical ties, so I don't think there's a correlation between the two!

How do we know that she hadn't been thinking of suicide for a long time, or had thought of it in the past? She may have looked into knot-tying a long time before. I think people who commit suicide often think about it on and off for a long time - I don't think we can make an assumption that a suicide just comes out of the blue.

Here's an interesting article about suicide and Asian-Americans:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1833971,00.html

Another thing: did it occur to anyone that she might have loved that little boy? Maybe it was devastating to her that he was going to die, beyond any feelings of guilt she might have had.

On another topic: I also stopped and thought about it when I read in the autopsy report that the noose was put over her hair. My first instinct is always to pull my long hair out from under anything, but I'm kind of neurotic about certain things...That did grab my attention, but then again, as someone else wrote, at that point it might not have been something she'd bother doing.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 02:36 AM
Do the clothes really matter? JS' daughter evidently left the house that morning, maybe it was her stuff and she expected somebody would clean up after her? Or it could have belonged to RN's sister. Or it could be RN's things. That broken chandelier would have left the carpet embedded with shards of glass, making the area pretty unsafe until carpet was replaced, thus the need for everyone to sleep at the guesthouse.

I still believe it was a suicide and the ME has provided pretty reasonable explanations.

JMO

Yes it matters. For multiple reasons. It would place Rebecca in the guest house that night. It may speak to her state of mind or events that happened earlier in the night. Now you say that ES was there for sure that morning? I didn't know it had been confirmed.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 02:39 AM
Do you have to be a swimmer to know how to do nautical ties?! I know how to swim, and I don't know how to do nautical ties, so I don't think there's a correlation between the two!

How do we know that she hadn't been thinking of suicide for a long time, or had thought of it in the past? She may have looked into knot-tying a long time before. I think people who commit suicide often think about it on and off for a long time - I don't think we can make an assumption that a suicide just comes out of the blue.

Here's an interesting article about suicide and Asian-Americans:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1833971,00.html

Another thing: did it occur to anyone that she might have loved that little boy? Maybe it was devastating to her that he was going to die, beyond any feelings of guilt she might have had.

On another topic: I also stopped and thought about it when I read in the autopsy report that the noose was put over her hair. My first instinct is always to pull my long hair out from under anything, but I'm kind of neurotic about certain things...That did grab my attention, but then again, as someone else wrote, at that point it might not have been something she'd bother doing.

The lady who is an expert on suicides was on Dr. Drew today. You should read what she said about it.The MO of this supposed suicide does not appear to fit with someone feeling guilty/grief stricken. What's in the so-called suicide note also doesn't fit the idea that this is someone doing it out of guilt/grief.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 02:40 AM
Do you have to be a swimmer to know how to do nautical ties?! I know how to swim, and I don't know how to do nautical ties, so I don't think there's a correlation between the two!

How do we know that she hadn't been thinking of suicide for a long time, or had thought of it in the past? She may have looked into knot-tying a long time before. I think people who commit suicide often think about it on and off for a long time - I don't think we can make an assumption that a suicide just comes out of the blue.

Here's an interesting article about suicide and Asian-Americans:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1833971,00.html

Another thing: did it occur to anyone that she might have loved that little boy? Maybe it was devastating to her that he was going to die, beyond any feelings of guilt she might have had.

On another topic: I also stopped and thought about it when I read in the autopsy report that the noose was put over her hair. My first instinct is always to pull my long hair out from under anything, but I'm kind of neurotic about certain things...That did grab my attention, but then again, as someone else wrote, at that point it might not have been something she'd bother doing.

No, I do not think you have to be a swimmer to know how to tie nautical ties, but I think someone who was a swimmer/boater could most likely be more proficient at nautical ties.

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 02:41 AM
While I'm thinking about it, the Paradise Valley Relay for Life GS page with "wicked stepmonster" reference has been deleted from the Net, though it still exists in cached search.

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 02:41 AM
Interesting point about the PR firm Steely. Kind of like pre damage control on steroids. Makes perfect sense in this scenario!!

With San Diego and JS having the same PR company, it's a no brainer.

I also agree on this point. I think that the actions taken by Jonah leading up to Rebecca's suicide - will paint a very negative picture of him. I think he's embarrassed by the way she bound herself and doesn't want it to be more public than it is. He's obviously a man that strives for image and control - and these events were way beyond his super powers or his PR agency. He was afraid that Dina was going to make this a public affair by going after Rebecca. He thought that he could untie his chords to Rebecca and control her. It was too much for her. LE is protecting his privacy and this is creating confusion for everyone. He thanked LE for this by including his statement on LE's website. It seems to me that he should come clean in private with Rebecca's family and tell them exactly what happened from the very beginning. They want answers and they deserve answers. If it was a suicide as I believe it was be honest about how you treated her with her family.

revampz
09-07-2011, 02:44 AM
I think the clothes matter alot.

This case has gone worldwide, here in Australia I have found it in two of our largest selling magazines in the last week.

I have been reading this since day one and there seems to be so much confusion, things not answered and mistakes, evidence omitted.

With max's death they have said there were only 2 others in the house RN & her 13 year old sister......we still dont know for sure if GS was actually there that morning and left just beforehand. I think the police should look into this for a start, flight records etc to confirm that she had been there, but left prior to the accident and if they were her clothes. (I can understand her staying in the guest house if the "issues" with the children was true)

But they have also come out and said that there was only RN and AS on the property at her time of death. Yet at the beginning this was ruled a suspicious death. If this is so then it was vital that they answer whose clothes they were. In fact I think this is very bad police work.

Also can someone please confirm for once and for all what the "suicide painting" said...

For days it was She saved him, can he save her and now on the report it is she saved him, can you save her.

Either once again this is really, really bad policework or the media had the wrong info.

Which one is it?????? They make think it is not important, but I think the you instead of the he changes the whole tone of the note and who it may be directed at.

Plumeria5
09-07-2011, 02:45 AM
Just a thought...Would you take the time to neatly remove your makeup with makeup wipes if you are about to commit suicide? If not then if it were a suicide it seems it wasn't planned far in advance.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 02:49 AM
I would think that JS would have recognized if the clothes did or didn't belong to Rebecca and AS could have stated whether they were the clothes shewore to dinner that evening.

I think knowing whether they were even Rebecca's would have been important.

If no one could confirm or deny this, they were dirty and would have contained DNA. I think Rebecca being naked, would have constituted a reason for at least being interested.

I think LE does know the answer as to whom the clothes belonged to and that it is not important to the investigation. Clothes usually contain sizing info.

<modsnip>

Or they may be clothes from JS daughter or RN's sister that were never picked up due to the chaos after Max's injury.

I can also understand LE withholding information that isn't relevant to their findings.

JMO

jjenny
09-07-2011, 02:50 AM
While that "scenario" might fit with a suicide, it does not fit with the story AS told LE.

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 02:50 AM
I think the clothes matter alot.

This case has gone worldwide, here in Australia I have found it in two of our largest selling magazines in the last week.

I have been reading this since day one and there seems to be so much confusion, things not answered and mistakes, evidence omitted.

With max's death they have said there were only 2 others in the house RN & her 13 year old sister......we still dont know for sure if GS was actually there that morning and left just beforehand. I think the police should look into this for a start, flight records etc to confirm that she had been there, but left prior to the accident and if they were her clothes. (I can understand her staying in the guest house if the "issues" with the children was true)

But they have also come out and said that there was only RN and AS on the property at her time of death. Yet at the beginning this was ruled a suspicious death. If this is so then it was vital that they answer whose clothes they were. In fact I think this is very bad police work.

Also can someone please confirm for once and for all what the "suicide painting" said...

For days it was She saved him, can he save her and now on the report it is she saved him, can you save her.

Either once again this is really, really bad policework or the media had the wrong info.

Which one is it?????? They make think it is not important, but I think the you instead of the he changes the whole tone of the note and who it may be directed at.

Rebecca's sister said on TV tonight that the AR is wrong. The message was according to her 'She saved him Can he save her'

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 02:52 AM
Could someone post where I might find the autopsy report that this screen shot came from?

http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh396/Rfeynman/Ants/Cropped-1.jpg

TIA.

Check post #969 in thread #9 on this topic.


Do the clothes really matter? JS' daughter evidently left the house that morning, maybe it was her stuff and she expected somebody would clean up after her? Or it could have belonged to RN's sister. Or it could be RN's things. That broken chandelier would have left the carpet embedded with shards of glass, making the area pretty unsafe until carpet was replaced, thus the need for everyone to sleep at the guesthouse.

I still believe it was a suicide and the ME has provided pretty reasonable explanations.

JMO

Yes, I think they matter A LOT. If she had been found clothed then maybe not as much, but since she was naked they are a huge red flag, IMO.


Do you have to be a swimmer to know how to do nautical ties?! I know how to swim, and I don't know how to do nautical ties, so I don't think there's a correlation between the two!

How do we know that she hadn't been thinking of suicide for a long time, or had thought of it in the past? She may have looked into knot-tying a long time before. I think people who commit suicide often think about it on and off for a long time - I don't think we can make an assumption that a suicide just comes out of the blue.

Here's an interesting article about suicide and Asian-Americans:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1833971,00.html

Another thing: did it occur to anyone that she might have loved that little boy? Maybe it was devastating to her that he was going to die, beyond any feelings of guilt she might have had.

On another topic: I also stopped and thought about it when I read in the autopsy report that the noose was put over her hair. My first instinct is always to pull my long hair out from under anything, but I'm kind of neurotic about certain things...That did grab my attention, but then again, as someone else wrote, at that point it might not have been something she'd bother doing.

BBM

Things like that seem like second nature to me and aren't even really thought about.

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 02:52 AM
I think LE does know the answer as to whom the clothes belonged to and that it is not important to the investigation. Clothes usually contain sizing info.

They may very well be RN's clothes and the unmade bed was one she and AS both slept in. I can see a suicidal woman sleeping with her boyfriend's brother as one final insult. That scenario does fit with a suicide.

Or they may be clothes from JS daughter or RN's sister that were never picked up due to the chaos after Max's injury.

I can also understand LE withholding information that isn't relevant to their findings.

JMO

Then why list the contents of the two guest rooms of the guest house. They certainly didn't do that in the mansions bedrooms. I would say LE found the contents of those rooms to be of interest.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 02:53 AM
The lady who is an expert on suicides was on Dr. Drew today. You should read what she said about it.The MO of this supposed suicide does not appear to fit with someone feeling guilty/grief stricken. What's in the so-called suicide note also doesn't fit the idea that this is someone doing it out of guilt/grief.

I believe LE was being respectful when they suggested her suicide was triggered by grief. I think the message she left is clearly angry and is asking for eternal forgiveness.

Now that some of the facts are out, I think it is more likely a suicide triggered by rage at her boyfriend because he tossed her out of his life.
JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 02:55 AM
While that "scenario" might fit with a suicide, it does not fit with the story AS told LE.

I think it fits and AS did just as he said.

JMO

Plumeria5
09-07-2011, 02:56 AM
If Rebecca wrote the note why didn't she write it in the first person? IMO Either she staged it to look like a murder or it was one.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 02:57 AM
I think it fits and AS did just as he said.

JMO

He last saw her at 8 pm. She was in the main house. He retired to the guest house. You think that fits with the scenario?

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 02:57 AM
Then why list the contents of the two guest rooms of the guest house. They certainly didn't do that in the mansions bedrooms. I would say LE found the contents of those rooms to be of interest.

Of course they did because they were trying to rule out AS as a suspect. And I believe they did rule him out. A person who finds the body is always a suspect in an investigation.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 02:58 AM
He last saw her at 8 pm. She was in the main house. He retired to the guest house. You think that fits with the scenario?

We know RN was in the main house. That's where the hanging took place.

JMO

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 03:00 AM
The latest from Daily Beast:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/09/07/rebecca-zahau-suicide-at-shacknai-mansion-ruling-questioned.html

SunnieRN
09-07-2011, 03:00 AM
Of course they did because they were trying to rule out AS as a suspect. And I believe they did rule him out. A person who finds the body is always a suspect in an investigation.

JMO

So a guest house, with one out of two beds slept in, and a clothing from a female found on the floor where the one slept in bed was, rules out AS?

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 03:01 AM
We know RN was in the main house. That's where the hanging took place.

JMO

We know RN was found hanging from a balcony at the main house. We don't know where she was or what she was doing before that, just what AS says.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:03 AM
If Rebecca wrote the note why didn't she write it in the first person? IMO Either she staged it to look like a murder or it was one.

I've never written a suicide note so I can't answer your question. LE commented it wasn't an actual suicide not but was a message of some kind. I believe it was a message to God.

If her death was really a murder, wouldn't it be staged as a suicide rather than vaguely resembling a murder? Not a lot of effort required to take the shirt from her mouth and unbind her limbs. Leaving a message note that is more riddle than anything else seems to be a waste of time in a homicide. Makes sense if suicide. I go with suicide.

JMO

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 03:04 AM
If Rebecca wrote the note why didn't she write it in the first person? IMO Either she staged it to look like a murder or it was one.

My theory is that she was addressing Dina and Jonah with the first part in reference to Maxie. She performed CPR immediately after the fall and Maxie did not die at the scene. She therefore saved him. We don't know if he finally died due to complications or a decision to take him off life-support. She was proclaiming her innocence - and she was asking Maxie to save her soul. She was there when the accident happened - that's where the truth lies - the truth will save her. If she feared anything at that point it was going to hell.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:09 AM
My theory is that she was addressing Dina and Jonah with the first part in reference to Maxie. She performed CPR immediately after the fall and Maxie did not die at the scene. She therefore saved him. We don't know if he finally died due to complications or a decision to take him off life-support. She was proclaiming her innocence - and she was asking Maxie to save her soul. She was there when the accident happened - that's where the truth lies - the truth will save her. If she feared anything at that point it was going to hell.

How do you know she performed CPR "immediately" on Maxie? I don't believe the autopsy report supports that at all. I think he wasn't breathing for some time before 911 was called.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:11 AM
We know RN was found hanging from a balcony at the main house. We don't know where she was or what she was doing before that, just what AS says.

Either he's telling the truth or not and I believe LE believes he has told the truth.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:16 AM
So a guest house, with one out of two beds slept in, and a clothing from a female found on the floor where the one slept in bed was, rules out AS?

I think cops ruled out AS. They wouldn't do that if they were not satisfied with his explanations. Is there any evidence he lied to them? If so, I'd like to see it.

JMO

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 03:17 AM
To add to a point I made earlier. I think you'll only detect drugs you specifically test for. I don't think there is an all inclusive drug test. So it's possible that cocaine, marijuana, heroin, crack and other illegal substances were tested for that would lead to her state of mind and maybe not all of the murderous type drugs.

Also, AS telling the police he removed part of the shirt from her mouth doesn't point to his innocence as some have said, IMO. Why would he tell the police he removed part of the shirt from her mouth if he was innocent? Because they may find shirt fibers in mouth during the autopsy and wonder why he hadn't mentioned it. JMO

ButterflyGirl
09-07-2011, 03:17 AM
I've been reading this thread all night and there are so many questions and such crazy anwers from the LE/ME.I believe this woman was murdered.I also believe before the final act of throwing or making her jump off that balconey she had suffered for many hours that night.I hope there is someway this case can be re-opened. Sorry for butting in to the middle of a discussion.JMO

elementry
09-07-2011, 03:18 AM
Just a thought...Would you take the time to neatly remove your makeup with makeup wipes if you are about to commit suicide? If not then if it were a suicide it seems it wasn't planned far in advance.

I'd think the taking off of the make-up would have preceded the shower she apparently took back inside the mansion. Why shower, put on make-up then go out to the guest house. Then remove the make-up, then back to the house for her appointment with eternity. And the shower area was still wet at the point of first examination. Rigor Mortis sets in in 4 hours, body had rigor by, what, 6:30 or 7:00 AM? Does shower water on a bathroom floor not dry within 4 hours? In any case, more likely the shower was on closer to that 2 to 3 o'clock hour, if not later.

Another point: would make-up be more liable to retain fingerprints?

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 03:21 AM
Either he's telling the truth or not and I believe LE believes he has told the truth.

JMO

I think the whole point of the doubters of the suicide theory is that LE did a sloppy job. So saying LE believes he's innocent means nothing to me. It could just be another piece of sloppy police work.

It's also possible that a high ranking PD person was pressured to accept it as a suicide and not to delve to deeply into it. I don't know if that's the case but I'd like to know if JS had any role in getting the Sheriff elected. JMO

justice be served
09-07-2011, 03:22 AM
How do you know she performed CPR "immediately" on Maxie? I don't believe the autopsy report supports that at all. I think he wasn't breathing for some time before 911 was called.

JMO

I must have missed that earlier. How do you know that the 911 call was delayed and left him not breathing for some time?

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:25 AM
I also agree on this point. I think that the actions taken by Jonah leading up to Rebecca's suicide - will paint a very negative picture of him. I think he's embarrassed by the way she bound herself and doesn't want it to be more public than it is. He's obviously a man that strives for image and control - and these events were way beyond his super powers or his PR agency. He was afraid that Dina was going to make this a public affair by going after Rebecca. He thought that he could untie his chords to Rebecca and control her. It was too much for her. LE is protecting his privacy and this is creating confusion for everyone. He thanked LE for this by including his statement on LE's website. It seems to me that he should come clean in private with Rebecca's family and tell them exactly what happened from the very beginning. They want answers and they deserve answers. If it was a suicide as I believe it was be honest about how you treated her with her family.

RN's family are using the media to hurl unfounded accusations at him and police. He would be foolish to even speak to those hurling the accusations.
Whatever he said, they'd still accuse him of dishonesty. I think he should continue to ignore them and sue them if they cross the line into defamation.

JMO

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 03:25 AM
I'd think the taking off of the make-up would have preceded the shower she apparently took back inside the mansion. Why shower, put on make-up then go out to the guest house. Then remove the make-up, then back to the house for her appointment with eternity. And the shower area was still wet at the point of first examination. Rigor Mortis sets in in 4 hours, body had rigor by, what, 6:30 or 7:00 AM? Does shower water on a bathroom floor not dry within 4 hours? In any case, more likely the shower was on closer to that 2 to 3 o'clock hour, if not later.

Another point: would make-up be more liable to retain fingerprints?

One question I have is, did she shower or was she showered by someone?

The makeup pads might have fingerprints but I think DNA would be the best thing to test for.

Stella5
09-07-2011, 03:27 AM
This is quite the interesting read... http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/36/2/240.pdf

"Naked suicide can be associated with any method of suicide; however, anecdotal evidence indicates that it occurs more frequently with hanging, overdose, or drowning, but to a lesser extent in jumping deaths. With the exception of jumping, most naked suicides occur indoors."

"Anger and vengeance can be expressed by completing suicide while naked, especially when it is intended to traumatize a survivor. The shock of discovering a naked suicide inflicts an indelible, traumatic memory that can haunt a survivor for a lifetime."

"The person who completes suicide while naked may intend to add insult to a suicide survivor’s already devastating injury."

"Clothes may be partially or completely removed to facilitate the method of suicide. For example, the individual may remove or reposition clothing to expose the wound site. A shirt may be removed to make hanging easier or to be used as a noose."

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:27 AM
I must have missed that earlier. How do you know that the 911 call was delayed and left him not breathing for some time?

His death was partly due to lack of oxygen to his organs for a period of time. CPR has to be started immediately to be effective.

JMO

jjenny
09-07-2011, 03:30 AM
His death was partly due to lack of oxygen to his organs for a period of time. CPR has to be started immediately to be effective.

JMO

He had an injury to his spinal cord that prevented breathing. CPR isn't necessarily going to be successful in fixing that. So that doesn't prove the CPR wasn't started right away. I mean, how long did paramedics worked on him before he started breathing again?

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:30 AM
This is quite the interesting read... http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/36/2/240.pdf

"Naked suicide can be associated with any method of suicide; however, anecdotal evidence indicates that it occurs more frequently with hanging, overdose, or drowning, but to a lesser extent in jumping deaths. With the exception of jumping, most naked suicides occur indoors."

"Anger and vengeance can be expressed by completing suicide while naked, especially when it is intended to traumatize a survivor. The shock of discovering a naked suicide inflicts an indelible, traumatic memory that can haunt a survivor for a lifetime."

"The person who completes suicide while naked may intend to add insult to a suicide survivor’s already devastating injury."

"Clothes may be partially or completely removed to facilitate the method of suicide. For example, the individual may remove or reposition clothing to expose the wound site. A shirt may be removed to make hanging easier or to be used as a noose."

Thanks, Stella5. I think RN was very angry and her suicide reflects it.

tvscum
09-07-2011, 03:30 AM
You guys better "cease and desist":

Millionaire pharmaceutical tycoon (JS) is coming out swinging in the media battle over the death of his son and girlfriend at his Coronado mansion.

Chicago-based attorney (DW) emailed the following ‘cease and desist' letter Tuesday to Seattle-based attorney (AB) following her appearance on CNN Headline News and interviews with several media outlets.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney (http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney)

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:34 AM
He had an injury to his spinal cord that prevented breathing. So that doesn't prove the CPR wasn't started right away.

Yes it does. He couldn't breathe on his own so CPR was essential immediately. It was started later and that's why he didn't survive. Damage was done because of lack of oxygen in his blood. Both the lungs and heart need oxygenated blood. I imagine the doctors started asking questions about how it happened fairly quickly after he was brought in.

JMO

jjenny
09-07-2011, 03:36 AM
Yes it does. He couldn't breathe on his own so CPR was essential immediately. It was started later and that's why he didn't survive. Damage was done because of lack of oxygen in his blood. Both the lungs and heart need oxygenated blood. I imagine the doctors started asking questions about how it happened fairly quickly after he was brought in.

JMO

I don't think so. CPR itself isn't necessarily going to be successful in preventing lack of oxygen to the brain. I know that for a fact. Just because somebody is doing CPR does not mean they are going to succeed and prevent brain damage.

elementry
09-07-2011, 03:38 AM
You guys better "cease and desist":

Millionaire pharmaceutical tycoon (JS) is coming out swinging in the media battle over the death of his son and girlfriend at his Coronado mansion.

Chicago-based attorney (DW) emailed the following ‘cease and desist' letter Tuesday to Seattle-based attorney (AB) following her appearance on CNN Headline News and interviews with several media outlets.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney (http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney)

Good call, My Belle. I suppose he'll have to follow through and bring the suit if Bremner continues in her manner.

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 03:40 AM
You guys better "cease and desist":

Millionaire pharmaceutical tycoon (JS) is coming out swinging in the media battle over the death of his son and girlfriend at his Coronado mansion.

Chicago-based attorney (DW) emailed the following ‘cease and desist' letter Tuesday to Seattle-based attorney (AB) following her appearance on CNN Headline News and interviews with several media outlets.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney (http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney)

I haven't heard what she's said but just what's been reported here. If she was saying that Max was planking then that's a stupid thing to do. Why does how Max died enter into RN's death. Unless she can prove it she should ignore that part of the whole thing and concentrate on RN's death and the hinky things surrounding it.

She is entitled to express her opinion on anything and I don't know exactly how she's phrasing things. If I were her I would keep talking in the IMO mode and wait for him to sue her. I really, really doubt he'll sue her because then all of the evidence will have to be publicly aired. JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:43 AM
You guys better "cease and desist":

Millionaire pharmaceutical tycoon (JS) is coming out swinging in the media battle over the death of his son and girlfriend at his Coronado mansion.

Chicago-based attorney (DW) emailed the following ‘cease and desist' letter Tuesday to Seattle-based attorney (AB) following her appearance on CNN Headline News and interviews with several media outlets.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney (http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney)

Bravo, bravo. I knew it was only a matter of time before the cease and desist notices started to fly.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:47 AM
I haven't heard what she's said but just what's been reported here. If she was saying that Max was planking then that's a stupid thing to do. Why does how Max died enter into RN's death. Unless she can prove it she should ignore that part of the whole thing and concentrate on RN's death and the hinky things surrounding it.

She is entitled to express her opinion on anything and I don't know exactly how she's phrasing things. If I were her I would keep talking in the IMO mode and wait for him to sue her. I really, really doubt he'll sue her because then all of the evidence will have to be publicly aired. JMO

She insisted planking was involved but also that his siblings were present. Neither of which is supported by facts.

Nobody is entitled to state their opinion as fact. She stated her comments as fact, not opinion. It is up to her if she chooses to ignore the demand. And, no, not all the evidence will be publicly aired if he sues her. Truth is a complete defense to libel. It isn't true that planking was involved and I'm betting his other children were nowhere near the house at the time of Max's fall.

JMO

Stella5
09-07-2011, 03:48 AM
Thanks, Stella5. I think RN was very angry and her suicide reflects it.

You're welcome and I agree. When this first happened we had a statement from her ex-NN that Rebecca had changed and she wasn't the same person he knew when they were married. She didn't want their modest life in Arizona, where apparently they were barely skimming by.... quite a few civil suits on unpaid rent out there if you dig. She also felt the need to walk into a Macy's and attempt to walk out with $1,000 worth of jewelry without paying, and this was before Jonah walked into her life. NN said she now wanted the life of luxury. She had that life for a short while, but then Max fell from the staircase.

All that she had become accustomed to and all that she ever wanted was now slipping out of her hands. I have no doubt that some pretty nasty things were said that morning after Max's accident and the days to follow. She reportedly was driven to the hospital in an LE cruiser but then returned to the house an hour later. Jonah was busy tending to Max, and Dina was furious with her because it happened on her watch.

I truly believe there were a lot of accusations flung her way by everyone and she reached a point where she felt she had lost everything and no longer had anything to live for. All the above is MOO.

As for the autopsy and narratives we do have, I fail to see anything but a suicide. The paint on her breast, nipple, fingers, different parts of the rope... Rebecca painted that message. No one forced her to and then smeared paint on her to set up a suicide.

The head injuries could have occurred by her hitting her head on the balcony railing, flooring or supports... or smashing into the wall of the house. She went over that railing and didn't go straight down. She flung for awhile. Hanging victims also convulse, which would create more movement to hit the house, the trees or anything else around her body.

I just don't see homicide. The scene is too messy for the perp to not leave anything behind. MOO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 03:51 AM
Good call, My Belle. I suppose he'll have to follow through and bring the suit if Bremner continues in her manner.

as well he should follow through. Enough is enough. Ms. Bremner's agenda from the get-go seemed to be more about $$$$ than justice. She has no right whatsoever to insert herself into the investigation about Max. In fact, the LE press conference with the video illustration seemed to be specifically targeted to refute her planking scenario.

JMO

shana
09-07-2011, 03:51 AM
Whoa...I haven't been on this thread since this morning, and I now see it has tanked.

RIP little Max and Becky...I hope you find your peace.

Stella5
09-07-2011, 03:53 AM
From the cease & desist article...

" It is ironic that Mr. Shacknai went through the entire law enforcement investigation, at all times cooperating completely with several police authorities, and never once considered retaining an attorney."

Call me crazy, but I doubt a man of his wealth who was involved in murdering his girlfriend in any way, shape or form would sit through all those interviews without legal counsel. MOO.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 03:56 AM
The life of luxury doesn't appear to me to be all that luxurious. She was babysitting, making breakfast, that we heard of. The guy also had two ex-wives, 2 teenager children, and it appears she didn't have the best relationship with at least one of the ex-wives and one of the teenagers.
Was that really that devastating to lose all that? She was young, attractive, it's not like if she lost JS as a boyfriend she wouldn't have been able to get another one.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:01 AM
You're welcome and I agree. When this first happened we had a statement from her ex-NN that Rebecca had changed and she wasn't the same person he knew when they were married. She didn't want their modest life in Arizona, where apparently they were barely skimming by.... quite a few civil suits on unpaid rent out there if you dig. She also felt the need to walk into a Macy's and attempt to walk out with $1,000 worth of jewelry without paying, and this was before Jonah walked into her life. NN said she now wanted the life of luxury. She had that life for a short while, but then Max fell from the staircase.

All that she had become accustomed to and all that she ever wanted was now slipping out of her hands. I have no doubt that some pretty nasty things were said that morning after Max's accident and the days to follow. She reportedly was driven to the hospital in an LE cruiser but then returned to the house an hour later. Jonah was busy tending to Max, and Dina was furious with her because it happened on her watch.

I truly believe there were a lot of accusations flung her way by everyone and she reached a point where she felt she had lost everything and no longer had anything to live for. All the above is MOO.

As for the autopsy and narratives we do have, I fail to see anything but a suicide. The paint on her breast, nipple, fingers, different parts of the rope... Rebecca painted that message. No one forced her to and then smeared paint on her to set up a suicide.

The head injuries could have occurred by her hitting her head on the balcony railing, flooring or supports... or smashing into the wall of the house. She went over that railing and didn't go straight down. She flung for awhile. Hanging victims also convulse, which would create more movement to hit the house, the trees or anything else around her body.

I just don't see homicide. The scene is too messy for the perp to not leave anything behind. MOO

ITA. I've always thought she tried to make it look like a homicide because she was very angry at JS. I think it would be impossible for any human, JS or anybody else, to continue to live with a person who they felt was responsible for their child's accident. I do believe AS was there to ensure she moved out of JS's life. Nothing more.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:07 AM
The life of luxury doesn't appear to me to be all that luxurious. She was babysitting, making breakfast, that we heard of. The guy also had two ex-wives, 2 teenager children, and it appears she didn't have the best relationship with at least one of the ex-wives and one of the teenagers.
Was that really that devastating to lose all that? She was young, attractive, it's not like if she lost JS as a boyfriend she wouldn't have been able to get another one.

I think it isn't all that easy to snag a billionaire. Just a guess since I never tried. Granted, she was young and attractive but so are a lot of other women that age.

Was the babysitting all that difficult? Cooking breakfast? The three children all primarily resided with their mothers.

If RN had problems with anyone, maybe she was the source of the problem? Blaming everyone else gets stale after awhile.

JMO

Stella5
09-07-2011, 04:08 AM
The life of luxury doesn't appear to me to be all that luxurious. She was babysitting, making breakfast, that we heard of. The guy also had two ex-wives, 2 teenager children, and it appears she didn't have the best relationship with at least one of the ex-wives and one of the teenagers.
Was that really that devastating to lose all that? She was young, attractive, it's not like if she lost JS as a boyfriend she wouldn't have been able to get another one.


Who's to say she didn't enjoy making breakfast and tending to his children? If she didn't, why would she have quit her job to spend more time with Jonah and his kids? Find another boyfriend who made $6.5 million dollars last year, owned a mansion in AZ and yet another mansion in San Diego? What are the odds? Slim to none. I think it was the money that was the motivating factor in the relationship, at least in the beginning and it is a pretty attractive bonus. Kids are there part time, and when they weren't it was probably non-stop luxury.... fancy dinners, nicer clothes than she ever dreamed of, nice cars, probably fantasy vacations... She was playing house with a billionaire and now it was over. MOO.

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 04:10 AM
So attorneys are taking swings at each other.

The point remains that the Zahau family deserve answers they're not getting.

And how is it that Jonah Shacknai claimed from day one that RZ had killed herself? On what basis did he make such a conclusion?

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:10 AM
From the cease & desist article...

" It is ironic that Mr. Shacknai went through the entire law enforcement investigation, at all times cooperating completely with several police authorities, and never once considered retaining an attorney."

Call me crazy, but I doubt a man of his wealth who was involved in murdering his girlfriend in any way, shape or form would sit through all those interviews without legal counsel. MOO.

ITA. Sounds like his corporate legal counsel advised him to cooperate and so he did. I'm impressed.

JMO

jjenny
09-07-2011, 04:13 AM
Who's to say she didn't enjoy making breakfast and tending to his children? If she didn't, why would she have quit her job to spend more time with Jonah and his kids? Find another boyfriend who made $6.5 million dollars last year, owned a mansion in AZ and yet another mansion in San Diego? What are the odds? Slim to none. I think it was the money that was the motivating factor in the relationship, at least in the beginning and it is a pretty attractive bonus. Kids are there part time, and when they weren't it was probably non-stop luxury.... fancy dinners, nicer clothes than she ever dreamed of, nice cars, probably fantasy vacations... She was playing house with a billionaire and now it was over. MOO.

If she were running in those circles while she was dating JS the odds might have been pretty good, IMO. She was a very attractive woman. And since she did it once (found a millionaire boyfriend), who is to say she couldn't have done it again? Even LE implies her life wasn't all roses. Why would she be so devastated to lose that?

CalElliot
09-07-2011, 04:14 AM
Who says JS has, up until now had no legal counsel? Jonah Shacknai.

Who says JS sent Rebecca Zahau the pivotal "phone message? Jonah Shacknai.

Spin, spin, spin.

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 04:14 AM
RN's family are using the media to hurl unfounded accusations at him and police. He would be foolish to even speak to those hurling the accusations.
Whatever he said, they'd still accuse him of dishonesty. I think he should continue to ignore them and sue them if they cross the line into defamation.

JMO

I don't know that the family isn't being used by all the media divas. What other recourse do they have to get answers from Jonah and LE? Their daughter is dead and they're not satisfied with the answers. Do you think they should just ask Jonah nicely? Do they have access to all the police reports, search warrants, and witness statements?

Stella5
09-07-2011, 04:21 AM
So attorneys are taking swings at each other.

The point remains that the Zahau family deserve answers they're not getting.

And how is it that Jonah Shacknai claimed from day one that RZ had killed herself? On what basis did he make such a conclusion?

Is it that they are not getting answers? Or they are not getting the answers they want?

Take it from me, it is devastating to hear your sibling took their own life. It's a struggle to come to terms with it and to eventually accept it. It's not an instantaneous process. I hope they do get the answers they are looking for and I hope they can all grieve and eventually get to the point that they remember Rebecca for how she lived, not how she died.

As for Jonah claiming suicide from day one, Rebecca was found hanged. Hanging is almost always suicide (from all the research I've done, can't quote a figure right now). If I found out a loved one was found hanged I would immediately think it was suicide.

I accept that this particular hanging is very bizarre. But I also know hanging is more & more common, particularly in women... as is binding the hands so you don't save yourself. I can't explain the feet, but with the autopsy and crime scene reports back with no other scene contamination or DNA evidence, I think LE got this one right sadly.

justice be served
09-07-2011, 04:22 AM
Why wouldn't she sleep with someone? Her choice. She slept with JS while still married to NN, didn't she? I don't share her values but I'm also not going to judge her other than to say I think she was a very angry, troubled young woman and had been for quite some time. Affair while married, shoplifting, moving in with much older boyfriend/billionaire, not getting along with his teenagers or ex-wife, quitting her job, horrific accident to Max all point to emotional chaos that she would have trouble sorting out if she felt all alone. Anybody would.

JMO

Well she's still dead and we shouldn't continue to victimize her. These are two terrible and unnecessary deaths that I hope can soon allow all families to feel settled with the outcomes and allow some peace.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:22 AM
I don't know that the family isn't being used by all the media divas. What other recourse do they have to get answers from Jonah and LE? Their daughter is dead and they're not satisfied with the answers. Do you think they should just ask Jonah nicely? Do they have access to all the police reports, search warrants, and witness statements?

RN was their sister and they are not entitled to any answers from JS. Police have said he was not present at the time of RN's death. I truly do understand they are not satisfied with the answers but the only answers they are entitled to aren't from JS. He doesn't have any access to police notes or other investigative documents. If they are successful in reopening an investigation, they will deal directly with LE, not JS.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:24 AM
Well she's still dead and we shouldn't continue to victimize her. These are two terrible and unnecessary deaths that I hope can soon allow all families to feel settled with the outcomes and allow some peace.

I didn't victimize her. I said she was entitled to her choices.

JMO

Stella5
09-07-2011, 04:26 AM
If she were running in those circles while she was dating JS the odds might have been pretty good, IMO. She was a very attractive woman. And since she did it once (found a millionaire boyfriend), who is to say she couldn't have done it again? Even LE implies her life wasn't all roses. Why would she be so devastated to lose that?

I'd love to know how they met! Was he a client at the Eye Clinic where she worked? Who knows... but just from experience I've seen the trophy girlfriends get ostracized from social circles for some pretty ridiculous reasons. And let me tell you, the old boys stick together and hold grudges for a long, long time. I can't imagine if Jonah and/or Dina blamed her for Max's injuries and subsequent death that she'd be welcome at the Country Club anytime soon.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:27 AM
I don't think so. CPR itself isn't necessarily going to be successful in preventing lack of oxygen to the brain. I know that for a fact. Just because somebody is doing CPR does not mean they are going to succeed and prevent brain damage.

CPR by EMT's was successful on Max. CPR improperly performed or performed too late will be useless in preventing brain damage, which Max apparently did sustain. The ME report is very clear.

JMO

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 04:27 AM
If she were running in those circles while she was dating JS the odds might have been pretty good, IMO. She was a very attractive woman. And since she did it once (found a millionaire boyfriend), who is to say she couldn't have done it again? Even LE implies her life wasn't all roses. Why would she be so devastated to lose that?

Of course she enjoyed the money and sought it out. I'm sure she also deeply cared for Jonah. I think some people that seek money do it to mask their own insecurities. Let's say Rebecca had her own insecurities and over night she was loosing financial security, emotional security from her lover, and being blamed for a tragic death. She wasn't hanging on the balcony to see who might be living next door.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:29 AM
Good call, My Belle. I suppose he'll have to follow through and bring the suit if Bremner continues in her manner.

If she continues, I think the FBI will be all over her. The guy she wants to defame is the CEO of a publicly traded company.

JMO

jjenny
09-07-2011, 04:30 AM
CPR by EMT's was successful on Max. CPR improperly performed or performed too late will be useless in preventing brain damage, which Max apparently did sustain. The ME report is very clear.

JMO

How long did it take EMTs to restore breathing? CPR only increases someone's chances of survival, it doesn't guarantee it by any means. Brain starts dying within five minutes or so without oxygen.

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 04:31 AM
She insisted planking was involved but also that his siblings were present. Neither of which is supported by facts.

Nobody is entitled to state their opinion as fact. She stated her comments as fact, not opinion. It is up to her if she chooses to ignore the demand. And, no, not all the evidence will be publicly aired if he sues her. Truth is a complete defense to libel. It isn't true that planking was involved and I'm betting his other children were nowhere near the house at the time of Max's fall.

JMO

Let me rephrase that. A lot more public scrutiny will be brought to the case in a dog and pony trial that more than just NG and JVM will be broadcasting. JMO

Tristan
09-07-2011, 04:33 AM
WHY haven't they released who made the 911 call??

What's the big secret about that?

I would like to hear the real 911 call. I think it will be very telling.

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 04:33 AM
Just to add, I don't think JS wants the media looking closely at his life and that would definitely happen during a trial. I'd be willing to bet this is an empty threat.

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 04:34 AM
CPR by EMT's was successful on Max. CPR improperly performed or performed too late will be useless in preventing brain damage, which Max apparently did sustain. The ME report is very clear.

JMO

So it's possible that she performed CPR incorrectly which contributed to brain damage but prevented him from dying? Isn't the purpose of CPR two fold - provide oxygen to the brain via the blood and keep the heart pumping? I know nothing about CPR by the way...

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:36 AM
If she were running in those circles while she was dating JS the odds might have been pretty good, IMO. She was a very attractive woman. And since she did it once (found a millionaire boyfriend), who is to say she couldn't have done it again? Even LE implies her life wasn't all roses. Why would she be so devastated to lose that?

I doubt finding a wealthy man is as easy as you think. She had already invested quite some time into JS. If he rejected her, I really doubt the road ahead was nothing but difficult for her to face. For one, she needed a job and she didn't even have that. I can understand how she may have felt hopeless.

JMO

Steely Dan
09-07-2011, 04:37 AM
So it's possible that she performed CPR incorrectly which contributed to brain damage but prevented him from dying? Isn't the purpose of CPR two fold - provide oxygen to the brain via the blood and keep the heart pumping? I know nothing about CPR by the way...

If she did it incorrectly I highly doubt she did it on purpose. How long had Max been lying there before somebody found him and JN got to him? The fact that she tried to save him makes me think his death was most likely accidental. JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:40 AM
So it's possible that she performed CPR incorrectly which contributed to brain damage but prevented him from dying? Isn't the purpose of CPR two fold - provide oxygen to the brain via the blood and keep the heart pumping? I know nothing about CPR by the way...

I do know something about CPR. The heart's pumping action sends oxygenated blood to the other organs and it is circulated back to the heart to repeat the action, which is accomplished by heart pumping, lungs breathing. When that action is impaired, CPR must duplicate it.

So, yes, it can be assumed she performed CPR incorrectly OR there was a delay in starting CPR. I think there was a delay.

JMO

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 04:40 AM
If she did it incorrectly I highly doubt she did it on purpose. How long had Max been lying there before somebody found him and JN got to him? The fact that she tried to save him makes me think his death was most likely accidental. JMO

Just to be clear I wasn't suggesting she didn't it incorrectly on purpose. I can imagine that you might even know how to perform CPR but panic in a situation like this. I hope I never find myself having to try and save the life of a child on my own.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:42 AM
Just to add, I don't think JS wants the media looking closely at his life and that would definitely happen during a trial. I'd be willing to bet this is an empty threat.

I don't believe that law firm on Wacker Dr. has made its money on empty threats.

JMO

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 04:46 AM
I do know something about CPR. The heart's pumping action sends oxygenated blood to the other organs and it is circulated back to the heart to repeat the action, which is accomplished by heart pumping, lungs breathing. When that action is impaired, CPR must duplicate it.

So, yes, it can be assumed she performed CPR incorrectly OR there was a delay in starting CPR. I think there was a delay.

JMO

So what you are saying here is she may have been successful in keeping the heart pumping but not providing the necessary oxygen to the brain. I don't think we will ever know if there was a delay in providing CPR. Especially if brain damage could have been the result of improper CPR. I would think that the sound of Max crashing down with the chandelier would have prompted a quick response. Unless you are in the shower, listening to loud music, or on the other side/outside of the house. All of which are unfortunate circumstances given what has just happened.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:46 AM
How long did it take EMTs to restore breathing? CPR only increases someone's chances of survival, it doesn't guarantee it by any means. Brain starts dying within five minutes or so without oxygen.

EMT's restored his heartbeat. And the brain was dying because of no CPR, which was my point. CPR isn't about just lungs, it is about circulation via the heart.

JMO

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 04:52 AM
EMT's restored his heartbeat. And the brain was dying because of no CPR, which was my point. CPR isn't about just lungs, it is about circulation via the heart.

JMO

How did they restore his heart beat? Would it be with a portable defibrillator?

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:52 AM
So what you are saying here is she may have been successful in keeping the heart pumping but not providing the necessary oxygen to the brain. I don't think we will ever know if there was a delay in providing CPR. Especially if brain damage could have been the result of improper CPR. I would think that the sound of Max crashing down with the chandelier would have prompted a quick response. Unless you are in the shower, listening to loud music, or on the other side/outside of the house. All of which are unfortunate circumstances given what has just happened.

What I'm saying is that she wasn't successful in keeping the heart pumping oxygenated blood <modsnip>.

RN was a certified technician to eye surgeons. I think she knew proper CPR and the reason Max's brain was without oxygen is <modsnip>. I have no idea where she really was when Max's accident happened but there is also no evidence of where she was other than what she told LE.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:53 AM
How did they restore his heart beat? Would it be with a portable defibrillator?

yes, that and drugs, respirator.

JMO

jjenny
09-07-2011, 04:55 AM
yes, that and drugs, respirator.

JMO

And how long did that take? Without knowing how long that took, I fail to see how it's possible to make any conclusions. Only a small percentage of people who receive CPR survive (5-10 %). Yet you expect RN to be able to perform a miracle, apparently.

"The truth is that only between 5%-10% of people who undergo CPR will survive, while on television shows, a majority of the patients seem to do well."
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/heart-failure/news/20010514/real-cpr-isnt-everything-seems-to-be

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 04:59 AM
Just to add, I don't think JS wants the media looking closely at his life and that would definitely happen during a trial. I'd be willing to bet this is an empty threat.

I disagree. The media don't have a habit of examining lives that have a cease and desist order attached. I doubt there will be any trial.

JMO

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 04:59 AM
What I'm saying is that she wasn't successful in keeping the heart pumping oxygenated blood <modsnip>.

RN was a certified technician to eye surgeons. I think she knew proper CPR and <modsnip>. I have no idea where she really was when Max's accident happened but there is also no evidence of where she was other than what she told LE.

So you don't think that she may have given improper CPR and this had the same result as a delay in CPR? I think you are right she knew CPR - but was she capable of handling this situation? She may have panicked? In the diagram of the fall from LE wasn't Max face down? She would have had to turn him over - would she at all hesitate if she thought he had a spinal chord injury? Wasn't there some mention that Max has said 'Ocean' before passing out? If that's true who heard it? How long after a fall like that might you remain semi-conscious?

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 05:02 AM
And how long did that take? Without knowing how long that took, I fail to see how it's possible to make any conclusions. Only a small percentage of people who receive CPR survive (5-10 %). Yet you expect RN to be able to perform a miracle, apparently.

"The truth is that only between 5%-10% of people who undergo CPR will survive, while on television shows, a majority of the patients seem to do well."
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/heart-failure/news/20010514/real-cpr-isnt-everything-seems-to-be

The ME did make conclusions. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I expected of RN, I'm only pointing out that the ME's examination does not point out any successful CPR by RN. <modsnip>, the EMT's were only successful in reviving him. Damage was done by then.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 05:06 AM
So you don't think that she may have given improper CPR and this had the same result as a delay in CPR? I think you are right she knew CPR - but was she capable of handling this situation? She may have panicked? In the diagram of the fall from LE wasn't Max face down? She would have had to turn him over - would she at all hesitate if she thought he had a spinal chord injury? Wasn't there some mention that Max has said 'Ocean' before passing out? If that's true who heard it? How long after a fall like that might you remain semi-conscious?

Once you are trained in CPR, it isn't something you forget, imo. I think the outcome proves there was a delay in administering effective CPR.

How on earth would she hear any words from Max if his heart was not beating? That doesn't even make sense.

JMO

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 05:13 AM
Once you are trained in CPR, it isn't something you forget, imo. I think the outcome proves there was a delay in administering effective CPR.

How on earth would she hear any words from Max if his heart was not beating? That doesn't even make sense.

JMO

Well it sounds like you know more than me on this topic. I can't believe that she didn't do anything to save him though.

I did read in an earlier thread that Max's last word was 'Ocean'. Not sure if it's true or who heard it - but I imagine his heart didn't stop the split second he hit the ground.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 05:17 AM
Well it sounds like you know more than me on this topic. I can't believe that she didn't do anything to save him though.

I did read in an earlier thread that Max's last word was 'Ocean'. Not sure if it's true or who heard it - but I imagine his heart didn't stop the split second he hit the ground.

LE has said there were no witnesses to Max's fall so who heard his last words?

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 05:22 AM
LE has said there were no witnesses to Max's fall so who heard his last words?

I was assuming that his last words were after his fall before he lost consciousness - but I may be imagining that.

Also for what it's worth blog post on the effects of improper CPR

http://www.livestrong.com/article/198918-complications-from-improper-cpr/

snipped from thread #9 post #158
"It was mentioned many times that Ocean, the dog, was hers. Allegedly "Ocean" was the last word Max said. "

snipped from thread #9 post #606
"Rebecca said his last word was "ocean""

Bonepile
09-07-2011, 05:23 AM
Sheriff’s officials said some of the information was not released during Friday’s news conference because there wasn’t enough time, and the medical examiner had to pick the most pertinent findings to discuss.

THERE WASN'T ENOUGH TIME????

Then re-open the case and take all the GD time you need. We are more than happy to wait until you have picked up those loose pieces, re-examined them again and let some daylight into this matter, and oh yes, truth too.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 05:40 AM
THERE WASN'T ENOUGH TIME????

Then re-open the case and take all the GD time you need. We are more than happy to wait until you have picked up those loose pieces, re-examined them again and let some daylight into this matter, and oh yes, truth too.

Do you really believe that taxpayers are willing to pay for all the "time you need"???

I don't.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 05:42 AM
I was assuming that his last words were after his fall before he lost consciousness - but I may be imagining that.

Also for what it's worth blog post on the effects of improper CPR

http://www.livestrong.com/article/198918-complications-from-improper-cpr/

snipped from thread #9 post #158
"It was mentioned many times that Ocean, the dog, was hers. Allegedly "Ocean" was the last word Max said. "

snipped from thread #9 post #606
"Rebecca said his last word was "ocean""

All I view that to be is an attempt to blame the dog. Just more excuses, excuses.

JMO

BrownRice
09-07-2011, 05:45 AM
You're welcome and I agree. When this first happened we had a statement from her ex-NN that Rebecca had changed and she wasn't the same person he knew when they were married. She didn't want their modest life in Arizona, where apparently they were barely skimming by.... quite a few civil suits on unpaid rent out there if you dig. She also felt the need to walk into a Macy's and attempt to walk out with $1,000 worth of jewelry without paying, and this was before Jonah walked into her life. NN said she now wanted the life of luxury. She had that life for a short while, but then Max fell from the staircase.

All that she had become accustomed to and all that she ever wanted was now slipping out of her hands. I have no doubt that some pretty nasty things were said that morning after Max's accident and the days to follow. She reportedly was driven to the hospital in an LE cruiser but then returned to the house an hour later. Jonah was busy tending to Max, and Dina was furious with her because it happened on her watch.

I truly believe there were a lot of accusations flung her way by everyone and she reached a point where she felt she had lost everything and no longer had anything to live for. All the above is MOO.

As for the autopsy and narratives we do have, I fail to see anything but a suicide. The paint on her breast, nipple, fingers, different parts of the rope... Rebecca painted that message. No one forced her to and then smeared paint on her to set up a suicide.

The head injuries could have occurred by her hitting her head on the balcony railing, flooring or supports... or smashing into the wall of the house. She went over that railing and didn't go straight down. She flung for awhile. Hanging victims also convulse, which would create more movement to hit the house, the trees or anything else around her body.

I just don't see homicide. The scene is too messy for the perp to not leave anything behind. MOO

This post is 100% how I feel.

BrownRice
09-07-2011, 05:49 AM
The life of luxury doesn't appear to me to be all that luxurious. She was babysitting, making breakfast, that we heard of. The guy also had two ex-wives, 2 teenager children, and it appears she didn't have the best relationship with at least one of the ex-wives and one of the teenagers.
Was that really that devastating to lose all that? She was young, attractive, it's not like if she lost JS as a boyfriend she wouldn't have been able to get another one.

Well, fixing breakfast and watching kids in your (rich boyfriend's) Coronado beach side mansion is a bit more luxurious than waking up every morning at 6:00 a.m. (just guessing) to drive to your job as an eye technician and working 8 hours. And like it's been said, she had financial issues with her ex-husband (civil judgments for not paying rent) and shoplifting. If I had the choice, I'd certainly take Door 2 and cook a couple pancakes every morning.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 05:49 AM
This post is 100% how I feel.

Me, too.

BrownRice
09-07-2011, 05:51 AM
So attorneys are taking swings at each other.

The point remains that the Zahau family deserve answers they're not getting.

And how is it that Jonah Shacknai claimed from day one that RZ had killed herself? On what basis did he make such a conclusion?

I can easily see JS concluding she killed herself because she was found hanging. It "looked" like a suicide.

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 05:54 AM
Well, fixing breakfast and watching kids in your (rich boyfriend's) Coronado beach side mansion is a bit more luxurious than waking up every morning at 6:00 a.m. (just guessing) to drive to your job as an eye technician and working 8 hours. And like it's been said, she had financial issues with her ex-husband (civil judgments for not paying rent) and shoplifting. If I had the choice, I'd certainly take Door 2 and cook a couple pancakes every morning.

Especially considering the pancakes were only once in awhile when the kids visited. RN was hardly an indentured servant.

JMO

MyBelle
09-07-2011, 05:57 AM
I can easily see JS concluding she killed herself because she was found hanging. It "looked" like a suicide.

It also contains tremendous touches making it appear to be a homicide. Double trouble, imo

stilettos
09-07-2011, 06:31 AM
Well, fixing breakfast and watching kids in your (rich boyfriend's) Coronado beach side mansion is a bit more luxurious than waking up every morning at 6:00 a.m. (just guessing) to drive to your job as an eye technician and working 8 hours. And like it's been said, she had financial issues with her ex-husband (civil judgments for not paying rent) and shoplifting. If I had the choice, I'd certainly take Door 2 and cook a couple pancakes every morning.

I think that many women do take door number two as a choice and feel grateful for the benefit...at first it appears that money can make all things in life easier...but sometimes, you wake up to the reality that you have exchanged one form of bondage for another. Money does not buy happiness...all the fancy dinners and beautiful clothing in the world cannot make up for the lack of love or for controlling behavior. I know whereof I speak...the grass always looks greener. I would take modest success and a paid for home over balancing a million dollar property with all the trappings..it is work...unless you have the funds to hire others to care for the property and children...and then you have to deal with the loss of privacy these employees bring with them...double edged sword and all that. Still, crying in a benz v/s crying in a shelter are two different things.

IWannaKnow
09-07-2011, 07:36 AM
OK, the amount and condition of the numerous contusions and lacerations on RZ concern me. Many are said to be blue. If Rebecca incurred all those when she (allegedly) swan dived off the balcony with a ligature around her neck impeding blood flow, how did she get all those blue contusions? And how about all the ones remarked as linear and closely grouped? I could accept some of these as a result of the bush/cactus below the balcony and/or perhaps the cement wall, but certainly not all of them, and certainly not all the linear ones. If Rebecca hit her head going over (as has been suggested by other posters), then her main contact with the building would have been her head with the balcony railing or supports as she went over. After that she would have been swinging freely and not bashing into the building/bushes and if she did, it wouldn't be over, and over, and over. So where the heck did all the abrasions and contusions come from? In all their varying shapes, sizes and colors? Fresh and red I could see. Blue? I need that explained to me. Also discusses hemorrhages without underlying skin changes. Hmmmm. Sunnie, can you help me here? I know she was alive when she went over, but for how long? Long enough to cause blue bruises???

Bruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Bruising.JPG" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Bruising.JPG/230px-Bruising.JPG"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/e/e2/Bruising.JPG/230px-Bruising.JPG
Mechanism of bruise


Increased distress to tissue causes capillaries to break under the skin, allowing blood to escape and build up. As time progresses, blood seeps into the surrounding tissues, causing the bruise to darken and spread. Nerve endings within the affected tissue detect the increased pressure, which, depending on severity and location, may be perceived as pain or pressure or be asymptomatic. The damaged capillary endothelium releases endothelin, a hormone that causes narrowing of the blood vessel to minimize bleeding. As the endothelium is destroyed, the underlying von Willebrand factor is exposed and initiates coagulation, which creates a temporary clot to plug the wound and eventually leads to restoration of normal tissue.

During this time, larger bruises may change color due to the breakdown of hemoglobin from within escaped red blood cells in the extracellular space. The striking colors of a bruise are caused by the phagocytosis and sequential degradation of hemoglobin to biliverdin to bilirubin to hemosiderin, with hemoglobin itself producing a red-blue color, biliverdin producing a green color, bilirubin producing a yellow color, and hemosiderin producing a golden-brown color.[3] As these products are cleared from the area, the bruise disappears. Often the underlying tissue damage has been repaired long before this process is complete.

My understanding of this is the blue ones have to be older than the red ones. How does that work in this case?

From page 11, Back section - BBM:

On the lateral right thoracolumbar back there is a vertically oriented 3 1/2 x 3/4 inch patterned contusion. There is a vertically oriented linear component. There appear to be three thin linear components situated 1/4 inch apart.

How many closely grouped linear items do you see in this picture?
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rzbalcony.jpg

I do not see anything in the picture of the balcony that could account for three thin linear components situated 1/4 inch apart. Did any of this stuff match up to the balcony railing or anything underneath the balcony? Shouldn't that be an important determination?

If Rebecca was only about 2 feet off the ground, why did AS need a table to cut her down? He was a tall man. He used a knife from the main house. So the main house wasn't locked.

The write up about the guest house is a joke. How is anyone supposed to figure out what that actually means? Were the clothes, make up remover and drink in the guest house or the main house? Was Rebecca changing and was surprised then and that was why she was nude? Clear beverage. What was it?!?! She didn't have alcohol in her system.

Their response to the questions in the autopsy is :Bennymonkey:

Norwegian
09-07-2011, 07:57 AM
Don't know if it has been discussed, but about the message on the door, has there been any pictures of it?

I know RN's family said she never wrote in block letters, but if paint was used and you had to use a paintbrush block letters would be lots easier to paint than cursive writing.

If it was spray can paint on the other hand, then block letters makes no sense.

However, and I'm sure many of us have experienced this first hand, when we are angry or wanna make ourselves clear, we use capital letters = block writing.

Still think this was murder though.

thinkingstraight
09-07-2011, 09:12 AM
Well she's still dead and we shouldn't continue to victimize her. These are two terrible and unnecessary deaths that I hope can soon allow all families to feel settled with the outcomes and allow some peace.

All this tip toeing about Rebecca? What for? Nobody's sparing any horrific judgment on AS, DS, JS, their minor children, LE. Honestly, all the cards should be on the table. We can't pick and choose the facts about something. I know nobody wants to believe anything bad about a beautiful woman - I get that. But, perhaps she had things in her past, sketchy stuff, volatile relationships, unsettled emotions, knowledge about bondage - unseemly things that DO contribute to this scene. Those should be discussed if they can help make sense of this suicide/murder. If not, then perhaps we should lay off on the awful suggestions people are making about AS, JS, DS, etc.

IWannaKnow
09-07-2011, 09:12 AM
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/almost-factual-news/2011/sep/05/the-zahau-suicide-ruling-a-dangerous-precedent/
The Zahau Suicide Ruling: A Dangerous Precedent?

By Walter Mencken | Posted September 5, 2011, 12:18 p.m.


When pressed as to how the District Attorney's office managed to construe a man pouring gasoline on a woman and threatening to set her on fire as a suicide attempt, Watanable replied simply, "Why don't you ask the San Diego Sheriff's Department how they managed to conclude that Rebecca Zahau took her clothes off, bound her own hands and feet, then tied a rope to a bed, put a noose around her neck, stuffed a t-shirt in her mouth, left the bedroom, knocked herself in the head a couple of times, and then hurled herself over a balcony to her death? I think you'll find that the answers are remarkably similar."

CocoChanel
09-07-2011, 09:16 AM
Respectfully sniipped by me....

Maxie's fall from such a height could have been prevented if the child had been supervised. LE has said there were no witnesses to Maxie's fall, therefore I concluded he wasn't being supervised. LE had no need to mention neglect for me to draw my own conclusion.

Also respectfully snipped by me:

What I'm saying is that she wasn't successful in keeping the heart pumping oxygenated blood because she didn't start CPR soon enough.

RN was a certified technician to eye surgeons. I think she knew proper CPR and the reason Max's brain was without oxygen is because she didn't start CPR soon enough. I have no idea where she really was when Max's accident happened but there is also no evidence of where she was other than what she told LE.

I am not comfortable making or reading conclusions that are so very inflammatory to a victim here. Whether RZ was a victim of suicide or not, she is still a 'victim'. Drawing conclusions that MS was gravely injured due to a total lack of supervision by RZ, and that his death was a result of her failure to do CPR correctly feels wrong in this public forum IMHO.

Carioca
09-07-2011, 09:18 AM
Here's the response of the ME concerning some facts left out of their presentation last Friday:


http://i54.tinypic.com/30c6k9g.jpg


Now I guess they're back to the bunker and wait for incoming......

Thanks for posting elementary! I had the SD Sheriff's Dept site on speed dial for so long, was so disgusted seeing JS's letter, finally closed the site down. Therefore, would have missed this...
May the games begin

IWannaKnow
09-07-2011, 09:18 AM
BBM

All this tip toeing about Rebecca? What for? Nobody's sparing any horrific judgment on AS, DS, JS, their minor children, LE. Honestly, all the cards should be on the table. We can't pick and choose the facts about something. I know nobody wants to believe anything bad about a beautiful woman - I get that. But, perhaps she had things in her past, sketchy stuff, volatile relationships, unsettled emotions, knowledge about bondage - unseemly things that DO contribute to this scene. Those should be discussed if they can help make sense of this mistake. If not, then perhaps we should lay off on the awful suggestions people are making about AS, JS, DS, etc.

Do you have these things to contribute so we may discuss them? Because I haven't seen anything like that written about Rebecca aside from a shoplifting conviction and her ex getting evicted, unlike what has been uncovered about some of the other players in this drama. And, FWIW, I don't consider a woman hanging from a balcony a mistake. Someone CHOSE to do that. The question is WHO. I don't believe this has anything to do with her beauty. I believe most posters here are concerned with a miscarriage of justice. :twocents:

thinkingstraight
09-07-2011, 09:28 AM
I wrote mistake and corrected it to murder/suicide. I believe it was a suicide but I AM keeping an open mind as new information comes in. <modsnp>

And every time someone tries to discuss what her background might be, someone comes out with the old "lets not victimize the victim" here. Or worse yet, gets put on "ignore". It kind of makes one hesitant to share their theory.

oceanblueeyes
09-07-2011, 09:33 AM
:truce: Sounds like they are waving the white flag....lol.

It sounds like they are standing their ground to me.

They are sticking with their findings.

IMO

Kateyes
09-07-2011, 09:42 AM
According to an article on CNN, the message on the wall stated "She saved him, can he save her". http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Officials-Update-Mansion-Mystery-Deaths-129112698.html.

I am intrigued by this message because it really doesn't make sense. The first part - " she saved him" really makes no sense because if she is RN then that is false because she did not save Max, as he died. If she is not RN, then who isbthe she referring to? And the part makes no sense at all. I wish I could figure out just what this message meant, because as it is written, it is not logical to the situation at all, IMO.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 09:47 AM
According to an article on CNN, the message on the wall stated "She saved him, can he save her". http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Officials-Update-Mansion-Mystery-Deaths-129112698.html.

I am intrigued by this message because it really doesn't make sense. The first part - " she saved him" really makes no sense because if she is RN then that is false because she did not save Max, as he died. If she is not RN, then who isbthe she referring to? And the part makes no sense at all. I wish I could figure out just what this message meant, because as it is written, it is not logical to the situation at all, IMO.

It makes no sense to her family either. It's a very confusing message. I agree, she didn't save Max, and I can't believe "him" means JS.

IWannaKnow
09-07-2011, 09:57 AM
I wrote mistake and corrected it to murder/suicide. I believe it was a suicide but I AM keeping an open mind as new information comes in. Which is more than I can say for some posters. (not specifically meaning you - to clarify)

And every time someone tries to discuss what her background might be, someone comes out with the old "lets not victimize the victim" here. Or worse yet, gets put on "ignore". It kind of makes one hesitant to share their theory.

I understand your concerns thinkingstraight. I haven't really noticed posters discussing her background though, only whether or not she was negligent or responsible for Max's death. Even if she were, that does not justify murdering her. I've followed this thread pretty closely and haven't seen any real discussion of her background. I think if you bring factual items (with links) to the table to discuss, those are considered. I did not mean to imply that anyone with a counter theory be put on the ignore list and apologize if you took it that way.

JBean
09-07-2011, 10:10 AM
I wrote mistake and corrected it to murder/suicide. I believe it was a suicide but I AM keeping an open mind as new information comes in. <modsnip>

And every time someone tries to discuss what her background might be, someone comes out with the old "lets not victimize the victim" here. Or worse yet, gets put on "ignore". It kind of makes one hesitant to share their theory.
Those are currently the rules in place.We are a victim friendly forum.
But-if you have some factual information to support the background information that you are suggesting-then certainly post it and we can move forward with discussion.

additionally it is a violation to discuss other members.

the topic is not WS members but rather this accident/suicide situation.
Thanks and hth.

Salem
09-07-2011, 10:20 AM
I removed some posts earlier regarding bondage but forgot to put a warning in the thread. So here is the warning -

Discussing the intimate life of JS and RN is OFF THE TABLE. We are NOT going there. There is nothing from anyone, MSM OR LE or anyone else that gives us room to speculate about such things at this time.

If something comes out in the MSM, this rule could change but for now, the discussion is off the table.

Salem

deanna82437
09-07-2011, 10:27 AM
I'm just catching up .. you all were busy last night. If not done yet, you might want to google the investigating person, Lt. LN .. he was one busy person during those months. Overworked, perhaps?

Also some pay statistics for 2007, 2008 and 2009
http://sdsals.watchdoginstitute.org/sdsalaries/individual/nesbitlarry-d/

coastal
09-07-2011, 11:02 AM
>>>snip
Another thing: did it occur to anyone that she might have loved that little boy? Maybe it was devastating to her that he was going to die, beyond any feelings of guilt she might have had.

Respectfully snipped, snapdragon2, and thank you for saying this thing that I think every time i try to imagine myself in Rebecca's circumstances. The "suicide from guilt over Max's accident/death" meme has never felt right to me; while I'm sure Rebecca must have felt a terrible sense of failed responsibility about Max and the particulars of his accident, as would any reasonable human in similar circumstances, IMO guilt is another thing entirely.

When I think about Rebecca's feelings, try to imagine them, I have the sense of an overwhelming sadness and grief over the loss of Max. I believe she loved him very much - perhaps enough so that she couldn't imagine a life without him to live in it with her. I believe she was completely heartbroken.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 11:11 AM
Her supposedly feeling guilty, grief stricken doesn't (IMO) fit with the MO of the so-called suicide. The suicide expert who was on Dr. Drew yesterday pretty much suggested the same thing-if she was feeling guilty, why didn't the message read along the lines of "I am sorry" or "I deserve to be punished."

"And I can tell you, suicide is usually a personal, private event. This was a very public act that happened. It appears aggressive, angry, vengeful, potentially humiliating."
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/06/ddhln.01.html

Quester
09-07-2011, 11:16 AM
Was RZ unable to pull her own hair outside of the makeshift noose and outside of the t-shirt gag because her wrists were already bound?

sdcali
09-07-2011, 11:17 AM
The guy was there because his nephew was serious injured, in a coma, in ICU; and he has a 'friend' over......if so, I don't understand this family AT ALL.
Why wasn't he at the hospital lending his support to his brother (the reason he flew across the country).......or why was he "really" there???????

I'm sorry, I'm not being short with you, sdcali; I'm totally confused by this investigation and findings......

thanks to everyone for my Mom's birthday wishes....

it's time for me

:offtobed::offtobed::offtobed:

score

no offense taken, score. I am with you 100%. I was only trying to clarify that LE accounted for RZ's clothing. I don't believe she was the woman in the guesthouse bedroom, but again that leads to only more questions from us.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 11:17 AM
Was RZ unable to pull her own hair outside of the makeshift noose and outside of the t-shirt gag because her wrists were already bound?

How would she get the noose on at all if her wrists were already bound? I presume the theory is she put the noose on first then bound her wrists.

oceanblueeyes
09-07-2011, 11:20 AM
I try very hard to push aside the emotional aspect of this case. It is undeniable that two tragedies have occurred though. It reminds me of a Greek tragedy.

We will never know exactly what happened when Max fell over the bannister railing because there were no eye witnesses. We are human beings with human curiosities and we search for answers. However; the truth is we will never know exactly what happened. Not with Max's death or with Rebecca's.

Imo, whether the cryptic message makes sense to us or not isn't even relevant. It did make sense to Rebecca at the time. Suicidal thoughts aren't rational thoughts so rational thoughts cant be applied to irrational ones, imo. It never works because no one can get into the mind of someone who is already dead who has decided to kill themselves.

I do believe Rebecca killed herself. I don't buy into some vast conspiracy going on by the SDPD, ME and the forensic labs. That would take everyone involved in the case to cover it up. JS is not some big cheese to the typical police officer that works hard for a living. If one other person knows a secret it isnt a secret anymore. I don't believe 15 dedicated officers would rollover and cover up the truth. I think they did their jobs painstakingly well.

7 weeks of investigation with as many officers assigned to this case is certainly enough time to determine what happen.

I can see Rebecca propelling herself off of the top of the balcony railing and not pushing out far enough and striking her head on the rout iron fencing as she went down. The hemorrhages are small and on one side. Rebecca could have arched her back and put her head back as she jumped off. So the hemorrhages found underneath the scalp are understandable to me based on the location where she did it.

The other abrasions and cuts imo were from striking plants as she first went down. The dirt found on one hip convinces me she went over at an angle propelling heself over with force. The force of the jump combined with her body weight would not make her go straight down to a dead stop with the flexible rope never swinging. The rope would finally come to rest eventually but to me it was as if she was a pendulum on the end of a rope when she first jumped off.

As far as expecting them to mention every minute detail in their PC .........I never expected that from them and even after the AR has been released there was nothing in it that made me change my opinion from believing she committed suicide. Why? That will be only known to Rebecca.

imo

sdcali
09-07-2011, 11:29 AM
You are certain about this? Why aren't her clothes part of the drawings? Or in the photographs? If they were in the guest room and neatly folded with no signs of tearing - wouldn't this add to LE's case?

Anyone know if there is a transcript of the press conference? Does anyone else who listened to the PC remember hearing that? I am almost 100% certain that was stated.

There are many things missing from the photographs...no photograph of her cellphone on the floor, or the bed, the towel in the hall or the red stain described in the illustration.

I have no answers for why certain things were omitted and others divulged. If RZ were forced to take off her clothes, or had undressed to shower or go to bed (in the T-shirt found around her neck), then she was not undressed by a third party. Perhaps she was pulling the t-shirt over her head when she was acosted...so it was used as part of the suicide scene.

deanna82437
09-07-2011, 11:33 AM
I believe LE was being respectful when they suggested her suicide was triggered by grief. I think the message she left is clearly angry and is asking for eternal forgiveness.

Now that some of the facts are out, I think it is more likely a suicide triggered by rage at her boyfriend because he tossed her out of his life.
JMO

BBM
This has been mentioned numerous times and bothers me. Has this been documented anywhere that he told her it was over and I missed it? Anyone?

Not singling out MyBelle, just using her example of it being posted as such.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 11:36 AM
BBM
This has been mentioned numerous times and bothers me. Has this been documented anywhere that he told her it was over and I missed it? Anyone?

Not singling out MyBelle, just using her example of it being posted as such.

No. JS certainly didn't claim he decided to toss RN out of his life. So it's speculation. The message left on her voice mail supposedly was that Max was not going to make it. Not that RN had to go.

passionflower
09-07-2011, 11:49 AM
Just throwing in my 2 cents......wonder if the 2 deaths are not even related. (son and GF)
Just a great opportunity to make a murder look like a suicide.

scorekeeper
09-07-2011, 11:57 AM
I am not familiar with California Law. Will we ever be privy to all the investigation reports and pictures? I guess I want the "whole written book". I would really like to see the written notes for the interviews, cell phone records, hospital security tapes.

Perhaps if the AR didn't cause me to wonder about the clothes, makeup wipes, slept in/unmade bed and glass of clear liquid.......were DNA/forensic test done on these items and what were the findings? Why put this info in the report if not somehow important?

Even if it was a misprint and was meant to talk about a room in the mansion, why not expand on findings?

Did it appear that RN had slept in the Master bedroom. Her sister said she was getting ready for bed when she spoke to her.

Was only RN's fingerprints/DNA found on her phone?

This case is so exhausting; it's like reading a really bad novel that you can't put down or you have to finish to find out what really happened......

Oceanblueeyes, I may not get your quotes right; but yes, both the loss of MS and RN are tragedies and we may never know exactly what happened......for those of us that still lean toward homicide.....

jjenny
09-07-2011, 12:05 PM
LE have stated that only DNA from RN was found on rope. AS has stated he found RN hanging and cut her down. His DNA is not found on rope? Well doesn't that suggest that a person can touch the rope and leave no DNA? So how does the fact that only RN's DNA is found on rope proves suicide? The table with a broken leg-when did the leg break? The clothes in the room (on the floor)-whose were they? Was there loud music, and if so, who played it? Is there any evidence RN actually knew how to tie cleat hitch knots? I still have a lot of questions with no answers.

scorekeeper
09-07-2011, 12:10 PM
chasing.halo,

I have a question for DS....did AS visit the hospital when he first arrived....and any other time.....did AS and JS spend time alone?

Thanks so much..

score

deanna82437
09-07-2011, 12:13 PM
Especially considering the pancakes were only once in awhile when the kids visited. RN was hardly an indentured servant.

JMO

Where is the proof? Do you have a link for that statement?:sick:

sdcali
09-07-2011, 12:14 PM
I'd think the taking off of the make-up would have preceded the shower she apparently took back inside the mansion. Why shower, put on make-up then go out to the guest house. Then remove the make-up, then back to the house for her appointment with eternity. And the shower area was still wet at the point of first examination. Rigor Mortis sets in in 4 hours, body had rigor by, what, 6:30 or 7:00 AM? Does shower water on a bathroom floor not dry within 4 hours? In any case, more likely the shower was on closer to that 2 to 3 o'clock hour, if not later.

Another point: would make-up be more liable to retain fingerprints?

Do we have confirmation that she took a shower? In the mansion?

katydid23
09-07-2011, 12:19 PM
I remember during the PC hearing LE say that RZ's clothes were neatly folded in the guest room. If her clothes were accounted for in the guest room, then they had no reason to question whose clothing was in the second bedroom of the guest house. Maybe AS had an overnight guest? I would imagine some kind of questioning would have been conducted over the clothing.

Perhaps the answers panned out and LE did not feel that information needed to be divulged. Just like so many other facts that were not divulged...

RN had taken her sister to the airport that very day. Maybe those clothes and things belonged to the sister, and that is why they were not mentioned in the news conference.

jjenny
09-07-2011, 12:20 PM
RN had taken her sister to the airport that very day. Maybe those clothes and things belonged to the sister, and that is why they were not mentioned in the news conference.

Make up removal toilets are her sister's too? The sister was 13.

elementry
09-07-2011, 12:31 PM
THERE WASN'T ENOUGH TIME????

Then re-open the case and take all the GD time you need. We are more than happy to wait until you have picked up those loose pieces, re-examined them again and let some daylight into this matter, and oh yes, truth too.

My primary fear (and the reason for my sometime sarcasm) is that evidence may have been compromised, destroyed, or neglected to begin with. It could make answers to the various questions out there unsolveable, which would be a disservice to the victims and also those accused in their various ways. The only ones to gain from the seemingly subpar police work are potential offenders. Politically it could be a mess if the press and public determines that LE bungled this, i.e. evidence collection and maintenance from the get go, and a rush to judgement perceived to be entirely in favor of the monied party.

HowLoveCanBe
09-07-2011, 12:32 PM
BBM
This has been mentioned numerous times and bothers me. Has this been documented anywhere that he told her it was over and I missed it? Anyone?

Not singling out MyBelle, just using her example of it being posted as such.


There might be a pattern here. The kids are all whisked away. Her dog is boarded up. She tells kennel owner that she's doing this so she can be at the hospital. Maybe at the time she thought she could be at the hospital but it has been mentioned numerous times that Dina didn't want her there. So was she lying to kennel owner or uncertain? Who's idea was it exactly to board Ocean Rebecca's or Jonah's - perhaps at the insistence of Dina? If Adam was there to be with his brother and nephew why was he not at the hospital? Was he watching over Rebecca? There has been speculation that Jonah has used PI's to watch over people. He prob wouldn't want to involve a PI in this situation. Finally you have the possibility that she might have been staying in the guest house not the main house - and she jumped from the guest room. Sounds like she was being isolated at every turn. Just speculation on my part.

katydid23
09-07-2011, 12:34 PM
Make up removal toilets are her sister's too? The sister was 13.

Many 13 yr olds wear make up. Especially in California on vacation with their big sisters.

IWannaKnow
09-07-2011, 12:45 PM
This is the exact quote, and it was by Dana Gary, Medical Examiner Investigator. The report wasn't written until 8/21/11.

From page 2 of 3 of the Investigative Narrative:

Dr. Lucas and I were escorted to the back of the residence to a courtyard area between the main house and a guest house. I noted a naked female body lying on a grassy area, beneath a balcony. A rope was hanging from the second story balcony. The main house was a multi room, multi bathroom dwelling which appeared clean and organized. The guest house consisted of two bedrooms. One of the rooms had a suitcase and the other room had an unmade bed, a few pieces of women's clothing on the floor, make up wipes on the dresser and a glass with a clear liquid on the night stand. We were escorted upstairs and I noted black painted writings on the bedroom door that led into the room with the balcony. A paintbrush.......

After reading and rereading this statement, I believe that they are saying that one bedroom of the guest house had the women's clothing and make up remover wipes - not the main house. Which only puts a crazier spin on all this. If that was not what they meant, they should have phrased this better. Didn't they question why there would be women's clothing in the guest house?? Was the woman TG allegedly saw on the 12th ever verified or identified? Also, AS found RZ at 6:30am, but the Medical Examiner and the Medical Examiner Investigator did not arrive at the scene until 7:14PM.

katydid23
09-07-2011, 12:50 PM
This is the exact quote, and it was by Dana Gary, Medical Examiner Investigator. The report wasn't written until 8/21/11.

From page 2 of 3 of the Investigative Narrative:


After reading and rereading this statement, I believe that they are saying that one bedroom of the guest house had the women's clothing and make up remover wipes - not the main house. Which only puts a crazier spin on all this. If that was not what they meant, they should have phrased this better. Didn't they question why there would be women's clothing in the guest house?? Was the woman TG allegedly saw on the 12th ever verified or identified?

Except they talk about the woman's clothing on the floor and then they say they walked upstairs and saw the painted door. So that to me sounded like they were in the main house. It is confusing though the way it was crammed together.

elementry
09-07-2011, 12:50 PM
LE have stated that only DNA from RN was found on rope. AS has stated he found RN hanging and cut her down. His DNA is not found on rope? Well doesn't that suggest that a person can touch the rope and leave no DNA? So how does the fact that only RN's DNA is found on rope proves suicide? The table with a broken leg-when did the leg break? The clothes in the room (on the floor)-whose were they? Was there loud music, and if so, who played it? Is there any evidence RN actually knew how to tie cleat hitch knots? I still have a lot of questions with no answers.

I thought it was said that AS either loosened or untied the bonds around her hands. Did he also attempt to administer CPR? Then his DNA might be on her face and mouth.

tlneedham
09-07-2011, 12:52 PM
I have to admit, I'm confused by the finding of women's clothes in the guest house. I'm sorry, but if my 13 yo sister was coming to stay with me, no way would I let her be stuck out in a guest house. Who knows what could happen to her?!

Not saying that it's a high crime area or anything, but I think you know what I mean. I would feel super responsible for a sister that young and wouldn't want her that far from me.

Could it have been JS' daughter? Would still be weird for her to be in guest house, but if she didn't get along with RZ then maybe. Or maybe RZ stayed out there when JS' daughter was there? Regardless, the clothes appeared to still be there when ME came through, so whoever it was couldn't have left yet.

Something else I realized...

We've been told AS came out to see Max and support JS. RZ picked him up from airport and took him to hospital to pick up JS and the 3 of them went to dinner.

RZ was not allowed in hospital to see Max and yet she brought AS back to house with her--so did AS even go in to see his nephew after coming all that way?

I guess they could have left her sitting in the car while he went in. Because unless visiting hours were over (and since they had eaten dinner and were supposedly home by 8pm, I have to think he got to the hospital before they did), I can't imagine going all that way and NOT going in to see my nephew that same day.

Granted, he's a man and may think differently.

And boy, if JS was wanting RZ to leave (and we have no actual info confirming that), that sure as heck would have been one awkward dinner. Wouldn't you think he'd just tell his brother he'd pay for a cab to meet him to avoid seeing her instead?

Personally, I'm not convinced he wanted her to leave. But I sure would like to know more about how that dinner went.

Maybe she's a better actress than me. But if it had gone badly, that would have been awfully hard to cover up in a convo to my sister a few hours later.

Just so many questions...

elementry
09-07-2011, 12:52 PM
Do we have confirmation that she took a shower? In the mansion?

Well, there was a dropped towel (in the hall?) and I thought there was wet residue in the bathroom area.

elementry
09-07-2011, 12:58 PM
Except they talk about the woman's clothing on the floor and then they say they walked upstairs and saw the painted door. So that to me sounded like they were in the main house. It is confusing though the way it was crammed together.

They were in a 7 week rush to finish and put this to bed before the Labor day weekend.......:waitasec:

All these loose ends are indeed ironic in light of LE's desire to insist this is an "ironclad" closed case.

Quester
09-07-2011, 12:59 PM
http://mlblogsjaneheller.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/kool-aid1.jpg?w=600&h=500

tlneedham
09-07-2011, 12:59 PM
Make up removal toilets are her sister's too? The sister was 13.

It's possible they could be confusing those face wipes things with makeup removal. But as I said in another post, no way would I let my sister that young stay in a guest house instead of the main house.

But maybe JS' daughter stayed there b/c she didn't like RZ or RZ stayed there while his daughter was there b/c of the issues that may have existed between them.

Or who knows, maybe someone who worked for them and was whisked away before the cops came stayed there. But if it were a housekeeper, I'd think she would have made her own bed.

IWannaKnow
09-07-2011, 01:00 PM
I thought it was said that AS either loosened or untied the bonds around her hands. Did he also attempt to administer CPR? Then his DNA might be on her face and mouth.

From Page 2 of Investigative Narrative

On 7/13/11, at approximately 0630 hours, Adam exited the guest house into the courtyard area between the guest house and the main house. He immediately saw the decedent hanged by the neck with a rope attached to a second story balcony. Adam ran into the main house to get a knife, pulled a nearby wooden table to the decedent's body, stood on top, cut the rope and laid the decedent's naked body on the grass. He removed a blue cloth which had been in her mouth in an effort to perform CPR and at 0648 hours, placed a 9-1-1 call to request assistance. Coronado Fire Department arrived at 0653 hours and confirmed the death without intervention.

No untying of hands, only cutting down with knife from main house and removal of t-shirt from mouth to attempt CPR.

katydid23
09-07-2011, 01:02 PM
I have to admit, I'm confused by the finding of women's clothes in the guest house. I'm sorry, but if my 13 yo sister was coming to stay with me, no way would I let her be stuck out in a guest house. Who knows what could happen to her?!

Not saying that it's a high crime area or anything, but I think you know what I mean. I would feel super responsible for a sister that young and wouldn't want her that far from me.

Could it have been JS' daughter? Would still be weird for her to be in guest house, but if she didn't get along with RZ then maybe. Or maybe RZ stayed out there when JS' daughter was there? Regardless, the clothes appeared to still be there when ME came through, so whoever it was couldn't have left yet.

Something else I realized...

We've been told AS came out to see Max and support JS. RZ picked him up from airport and took him to hospital to pick up JS and the 3 of them went to dinner.

RZ was not allowed in hospital to see Max and yet she brought AS back to house with her--so did AS even go in to see his nephew after coming all that way?

I guess they could have left her sitting in the car while he went in. Because unless visiting hours were over (and since they had eaten dinner and were supposedly home by 8pm, I have to think he got to the hospital before they did), I can't imagine going all that way and NOT going in to see my nephew that same day.

Granted, he's a man and may think differently.

And boy, if JS was wanting RZ to leave (and we have no actual info confirming that), that sure as heck would have been one awkward dinner. Wouldn't you think he'd just tell his brother he'd pay for a cab to meet him to avoid seeing her instead?

Personally, I'm not convinced he wanted her to leave. But I sure would like to know more about how that dinner went.

Maybe she's a better actress than me. But if it had gone badly, that would have been awfully hard to cover up in a convo to my sister a few hours later.

Just so many questions...

BBM
That is another possibility. She was 14 and i bet she wore make up at that age. And she did not get along with RN supposedly. And the guest house is right alongside the main house. It is not any more or less dangerous than living in the main house. And apparently, less so.

IWannaKnow
09-07-2011, 01:03 PM
http://mlblogsjaneheller.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/kool-aid1.jpg?w=600&h=500

Is that kool-aid Quester? I'm really thirsty after reading that autopsy report for the 6th time.