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Salem
09-09-2011, 12:55 PM
Please continue here.

Here is a link to the rules and tips on dealing with your fellow posters. Please take a moment to look the rules over. We have a lot of newbies here.

The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

ALSO - please remember, we do NOT sleuth minors, we do NOT post identifying information about minors, we do NOT name minors.

If a minor is a victim or has been publically named by LE as a perp, then their name may be used. In this particular case, the ONLY minor that may be identified by name is Max, because he was a victim. ALL other minors are OFF THE TABLE. Even when quoting from MSM or other sources, if the minor is not the victim or the perp, we change the name to initials. We do NOT quote the name of the minor. This is to protect the minor. Please keep that in mind.

ALSO - and in this case this is VERY IMPORTANT

Do Not State things as fact unless you have a link to back them up.
Do Not Accuse anyone - there is no POI, Suspect, Etc. - You MAY speculate, but don't accuse.
REMEMBER - a difference of opinion is NOT a TOS violation, but tag-teaming is and you will be called on it.
BE RESPECTFUL.
Sleuthing of family members, outside of what is released by MSM or LE is not allowed. Again - there is no suspect/POI here. Public info is allowed, speculation is allowed, but sleuthing up the "back story" is NOT allowed unless it directly relates to MSM or LE.

Thanks Guys!


Thread 6

Thread 7

Thread 8

Thread 9

Thread 10



I am reminded of the Samantha Runnion case where she was snatched by Avila from the front yard while under her grandmother's care. It was mentioned many times that "if only" she had watched more carefully.....
It crosses everyone's mind-but in this case and in that case it seems as if reasonable care was taken and there is no issue with negligence. Bad things happen even under the tightest supervision.

So, let's not derail this topic with blame placing on Rebecca as it relates to the care of Max. Those that feel it is her fault-that's fine most of you have made your point and it is posted.
But we are not going to make it a talking point in this thread. Whatever really happened is a tragedy no matter how you slice it-so let's move on from blaming Rebecca it is just not constructive at this point. If that changes for some reason-the discussion may roll with that in the future.

If you have any questions - pm a mod. They will help. If you are unsure if you can post something - pm a mod. They will help.

Thanks!

Salem

rosetattoo
09-09-2011, 02:06 PM
I've been following this case and have been on and off on the threads. I was just wondering if the message on the door has already been discussed. I haven't seen any discussion, but I haven't read every post up until now, so I don't know if I missed it. TIA.

Quester
09-09-2011, 02:06 PM
I haven't read the autopsy reports in full yet.

Thanks to all of you who have posted about it! The added professional opinions and personal experiences are so helpful to understanding it all!

Regarding RZ' case: Was there any mention in RZ' autopsy report about the state of the master bedroom? Bed made/not made? Clothes on floor? Signs of disturbance?

[Note: I did read the comments posted here about the state of the guesthouse bedrooms. Thanks again!]

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 02:10 PM
I haven't read the autopsy reports in full yet.

Thanks to all of you who have posted about it! The added professional opinions and personal experiences are so helpful to understanding it all!

Regarding RZ' case: Was there any mention in RZ' autopsy report about the state of the master bedroom? Bed made/not made? Clothes on floor? Signs of disturbance?

[Note: I did read the comments posted here about the state of the guesthouse bedrooms. Thanks again!]

Nothing about the master bedroom or anywhere else in the mansion, other than the door and room where Rebecca was.

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 02:13 PM
I wish we had a thread for links only, no discussion, for this case. That way articles, autopsy reports, pictures, etc would be in a centralized location.

Last night there was discussion about the balcony windows and the rope. If there was a thread with links, it would have been easier to move pictures, or information forward.

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 02:15 PM
I've been following this case and have been on and off on the threads. I was just wondering if the message on the door has already been discussed. I haven't seen any discussion, but I haven't read every post up until now, so I don't know if I missed it. TIA.

There have been conversations within more than one thread, if I am not mistaken, however, I have no idea where to direct you. Sorry.

ehough22
09-09-2011, 02:19 PM
Quester, that's a good question and something I've been thinking about as well. Especially with women's clothing in the guest house, you would think it would be necessary to investigate the master bedroom to get a better idea of Rebecca's state of mind. If the clothes in the guest house weren't hers, where were the clothes she wore earlier that night? Had she slept at all that night or prepared to sleep? Maybe there was even a suitcase and she was preparing to move out. I'm not saying LE didn't check the room but it would be interesting to see what they found, or didn't find. Just in typing this I'm thinking it's interesting that she supposedly brought her phone into the room that she killed herself from- I would expect to find it in the master, especially at that time of night. My cell phone would not be high on my list of things to have with me when I jumped from a balcony. I would want it to call for help if I was murdered, though.

Curious Me
09-09-2011, 02:27 PM
I've been following this case and have been on and off on the threads. I was just wondering if the message on the door has already been discussed. I haven't seen any discussion, but I haven't read every post up until now, so I don't know if I missed it. TIA.

The message on the door has been discussed in some threads. Someone said it reminded them of the movie Pretty Woman, and some story told in it about someone saving someone, but I don't know if anyone else thought so.

coastal
09-09-2011, 02:27 PM
Please continue here.

Here is a link to the rules and tips on dealing with your fellow posters. Please take a moment to look the rules over. We have a lot of newbies here.

The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159)

ALSO - please remember, we do NOT sleuth minors, we do NOT post identifying information about minors, we do NOT name minors.

If a minor is a victim or has been publically named by LE as a perp, then their name may be used. In this particular case, the ONLY minor that may be identified by name is Max, because he was a victim. ALL other minors are OFF THE TABLE. Even when quoting from MSM or other sources, if the minor is not the victim or the perp, we change the name to initials. We do NOT quote the name of the minor. This is to protect the minor. Please keep that in mind.

ALSO - and in this case this is VERY IMPORTANT

Do Not State things as fact unless you have a link to back them up.
Do Not Accuse anyone - there is no POI, Suspect, Etc. - You MAY speculate, but don't accuse.
REMEMBER - a difference of opinion is NOT a TOS violation, but tag-teaming is and you will be called on it.
BE RESPECTFUL.
Sleuthing of family members, outside of what is released by MSM or LE is not allowed. Again - there is no suspect/POI here. Public info is allowed, speculation is allowed, but sleuthing up the "back story" is NOT allowed unless it directly relates to MSM or LE.

Thanks Guys!


Thread 6 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7017419#post7017419)

Thread 7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147697)

Thread 8 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148331)

Thread 9 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148448)

Thread 10 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148613)





If you have any questions - pm a mod. They will help. If you are unsure if you can post something - pm a mod. They will help.

Thanks!

Salem
Thank you, Salem! You take good care of us!

ehough22
09-09-2011, 02:30 PM
I find it difficult to discuss the message with too much effort because of the discrepancy regarding what the message actually said. Rebecca's AR said one thing and her sister says another. Perhaps the one word difference is meaningless but I can think of different interpretations for each one and it bothers me not knowing which version is correct.

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 02:36 PM
I wish we had a thread for links only, no discussion, for this case. That way articles, autopsy reports, pictures, etc would be in a centralized location.

Last night there was discussion about the balcony windows and the rope. If there was a thread with links, it would have been easier to move pictures, or information forward.

That would be great! I have a bunch of links saved in Notepad, but not organized very well. A thread with notes as to what they are would be fantastic.:great:

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 02:40 PM
I did a screen shot from the PC of the guest room with the tipped over chair and it looks like a cell phone by the chair. I think the pic on it could be of RZ and a sister possibly. I've not seen this mentioned nor does it have an evidence tag by it. Anyone seen this discussed by LE or news articles? Should I post the pic? Is that okay?

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 02:40 PM
That would be great! I have a bunch of links saved in Notepad, but not organized very well. A thread with notes as to what they are would be fantastic.:great:


I have no idea how to go about this, but if someone does, I am all ears!! Is this something we would start ourselves? Or ask a moderator for help with?

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 02:42 PM
I did a screen shot from the PC of the guest room with the tipped over chair and it looks like a cell phone by the chair. I think the pic on it could be of RZ and a sister possibly. I've not seen this mentioned nor does it have an evidence tag by it. Anyone seen this discussed by LE or news articles? Should I post the pic? Is that okay?

Please do!!:woohoo:

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 02:42 PM
I have no idea how to go about this, but if someone does, I am all ears!! Is this something we would start ourselves? Or ask a moderator for help with?

Not sure, but think a mod is needed, maybe?

Quester
09-09-2011, 02:45 PM
Re: RZ & LE PowerPoint presentation
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

On page 15 and looking at the lower left picture, there appears to be something, like a piece of tape, around the noose rope and right above the wood threshold.

Is that something that the manufacturer put on?

Did LE put that on? If so, could it have been just to note the positioning of the rope when investigated?

TIA

ehough22
09-09-2011, 02:47 PM
I know I read the phone was in the guest room near the overturned chair but have no idea where I read that now. I think it's an interesting item to bring with you when you intend to commit suicide- again, might be meaningless, but it makes me think. Please do post a pic!

coastal
09-09-2011, 02:52 PM
I haven't read the autopsy reports in full yet.

Thanks to all of you who have posted about it! The added professional opinions and personal experiences are so helpful to understanding it all!

Regarding RZ' case: Was there any mention in RZ' autopsy report about the state of the master bedroom? Bed made/not made? Clothes on floor? Signs of disturbance?

[Note: I did read the comments posted here about the state of the guesthouse bedrooms. Thanks again!]
Hi Quester! IIRC, Rebecca's autopsy report said that the main house appeared to be clean and organized; I don't remember anything specific about a master bedroom.

(Looking for the link for you I Googled "zahau rebecca autopsy report"; it returned 11 replies, alll of which (so far) link to stories written about said report. Interesting!)

BRB with that link.
Link to Rebecca's autopsy report: http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 02:54 PM
Re: RZ & LE PowerPoint presentation
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

On page 15 and looking at the lower left picture, there appears to be something, like a piece of tape, around the noose rope and right above the wood threshold.

Is that something that the manufacturer put on?

Did LE put that on? If so, could it have been just to note the positioning of the rope when investigated?

TIA

I see the tape, but why would it be at that spot? When stretched with weight at the end, woul it be at the edge of the balcony railing?

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 02:56 PM
Not sure if this will work, but here goes.
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/dhanco/cellphone.jpg

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 02:58 PM
There is a marker next to it. Interesting!!

belimom
09-09-2011, 02:59 PM
^ ^

I think that's one of the markers used by LE when numbering what they found...

belimom
09-09-2011, 02:59 PM
There is a marker next to it. Interesting!!

I think the markers are shaped that way - kind of an L with a cutout?

belimom
09-09-2011, 03:00 PM
I have no idea how to go about this, but if someone does, I am all ears!! Is this something we would start ourselves? Or ask a moderator for help with?

I think the easiest thing to do is to ask the mods to put the links to these things in the first message of each thread when they start a new one. Does someone have a compilation of these things they could post and then a mod could grab it and put it in the first post?

Quester
09-09-2011, 03:06 PM
I see the tape, but why would it be at that spot? When stretched with weight at the end, woul it be at the edge of the balcony railing?

I agree, with weight on the hanging end of the rope, the tape mark would be moved closer to the railing.

I'm wondering if it was just to mark the exact positioning of the rope when the investigators entered the room? There has been some talk here of photos without the hanging rope present. Perhaps the added tape was a way of marking the rope's position before moving it?

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 03:06 PM
Do we have anything (in the autopsy report?), I know we don't have police reports, that would tell us for sure what the number marker is there to signify?

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 03:07 PM
My computer froze after uploading that image. Anyone else? Anyway the link is:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

Page 15, right hand photo

rosetattoo
09-09-2011, 03:08 PM
I saw the version in the AR
She saved him Can you save her

How did the sister's version differ?

The above version seems hard to square with both a suicide and revenge killing. If suicide, why would she refer to herself as "she"? If she isn't referring to herself, who could she be referring to? Her sister?

If it was written by someone seeking revenge, why would they give "her" credit for saving "him."

As bizarre as this sounds, the message seems most consistent with someone trying to get at JS by killing his son and girlfriend. i.e., maybe Rebecca almost foiled the plan by administering CPR to MS, but you're not going to save her.

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 03:10 PM
I saw the version in the AR
She saved him Can you save her

How did the sister's version differ?

The above version seems hard to square with both a suicide and revenge killing. If suicide, why would she refer to herself as "she"? If she isn't referring to herself, who could she be referring to? Her sister?

If it was written by someone seeking revenge, why would they give "her" credit for saving "him."

As bizarre as this sounds, the message seems most consistent with someone trying to get at JS by killing his son and girlfriend. i.e., maybe Rebecca almost foiled the plan by administering CPR to MS, but you're not going to save her.

The sister's version is the same in the beginning, but ends 'can he save her'.

sorrell skye
09-09-2011, 03:17 PM
Item #29 is the noose rope.
Item #30 (in the room w/ the balcony) is a cell phone.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 03:23 PM
See the picture that highlights the foot prints? Is the black 'thing' at the bottom, Mr. Hopalong, 1 foot LE officers other foot?

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 03:26 PM
Item #29 is the noose rope.
Item #30 (in the room w/ the balcony) is a cell phone.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg

Hmm .. the photo of the cell phone and the diagram are different. In the photo, the rope is OVER the phone. :waitasec: Maybe it doesn't matter to them?

belimom
09-09-2011, 03:27 PM
My computer froze after uploading that image. Anyone else? Anyway the link is:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

Page 15, right hand photo

I took another look at the patio again (from the link above), and changed the color setting to contrast the footprints a bit more. I can see more possible footprints than what they have outlined - one perhaps under their ruler? Anyone else see more - such as just in front of the two prints at the threshold, especially in front of the right foot?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18614&stc=1&d=1315596575

sorrell skye
09-09-2011, 03:34 PM
Hmm .. the photo of the cell phone and the diagram are different. In the photo, the rope is OVER the phone. :waitasec: Maybe it doesn't matter to them?

I'm not seeing a photo of the cell phone.

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm not seeing a photo of the cell phone.

Page 1 - you don't see it?

ehough22
09-09-2011, 03:39 PM
Regarding whether the balcony doors were open or closed...the AR says "Extending from the double doors was a reddish orange rope..." Hmm. Sounds closed to me though I realize this is not definitive- just if I had to say based on that language I would say closed.

Carpe Pacem
09-09-2011, 03:39 PM
It would be interesting to see a poll in here, if one of you knows how to do so. Forgive me if it's already been done.

katydid23
09-09-2011, 03:40 PM
CalElliot
Quote:

She "shopped"?

Link please.
==================================================

Brought over from the closed thread.

In the radaronline interview with Mary Zahou, she said , as evidence to show that Rebeccah was not that upset or distraught, that rebeccah had gone shopping with her little sister on Tueday. I am assuming that was right before she took her to the airport and she left.

As others said, who knows why she went shopping. Maybe it is not fair to bring it up. HOWEVER, the family is the one bringing it up, as a way to show she was not that distraught. I think it shows she WAS having mental issues, imo.

sorrell skye
09-09-2011, 03:43 PM
Not sure if this will work, but here goes.
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/dhanco/cellphone.jpg

In this photo, I see the red rope with evidence marker #29.

The blurry-looking smudgy thing beyond that looks like the carpet, to me.

Based on where the cell phone was drawn in the diagram, I think the phone was behind the door out of sight of this particular photo.

ehough22
09-09-2011, 03:47 PM
I think context is important when discussing the sister's claims about shopping or guilt. This is a grieving sister who is trying to make the point that this wasn't suicide and she is doing so by attempting to make it seem as if Rebecca was not in a suicidal state of mind. I don't deny that such claims can, in turn, make her appear callous, but let's consider the source and what her point is. Her point is not that Rebecca was some sort of uncaring individual, her point was she was not suicidal. Again, I get that these claims can be extrapolated into, Rebecca didn't care about Max. But that's not her intention and I'm sure in her grief she never thought of it that way. Not to mention, as others have said, we don't know why or where or for what she went shopping.

Sharyne
09-09-2011, 03:50 PM
Bellimom, in that picture you posted above, where the words 'toe impressions' to the right and above does that look like a blood drop to you? I know the spot above the 'boot impression' has been discussed before as possibly blood, it even looks like there may be a couple more that look like blood, imho.

sorrell skye
09-09-2011, 03:51 PM
Beli - thanks for that photo. It looks like there could be more footprints, but it's hard to tell. I can sort of see another less well-defined print in the area you indicated.

Quester
09-09-2011, 03:53 PM
I would like to know the following statistic:

Of the documented suicides where a suicide note/message was left, what percentage left a cryptic note/message?

Wouldn't that suicidal person want to make sure that their last words were understood?

[Note: In the case of RZ, I do acknowledge that the meaning of the painted words was probably crystal clear to the intended recipient of the message. But, as far as we know, that recipient has not disclosed the meaning publicly.]

coastal
09-09-2011, 03:55 PM
There have been conversations within more than one thread, if I am not mistaken, however, I have no idea where to direct you. Sorry.
In Casey A's threads, the mods reminded us several times to "tag" our posts, so that when the trial came we'd be able to better find what we might want to look for. I didn't post or look back that often, so I can't say how well tags work, but it sounded like a good thing. Can someone with real experience with tags chime in? Thanks in advance!

katydid23
09-09-2011, 03:56 PM
I think context is important when discussing the sister's claims about shopping or guilt. This is a grieving sister who is trying to make the point that this wasn't suicide and she is doing so by attempting to make it seem as if Rebecca was not in a suicidal state of mind. I don't deny that such claims can, in turn, make her appear callous, but let's consider the source and what her point is. Her point is not that Rebecca was some sort of uncaring individual, her point was she was not suicidal. Again, I get that these claims can be extrapolated into, Rebecca didn't care about Max. But that's not her intention and I'm sure in her grief she never thought of it that way. Not to mention, as others have said, we don't know why or where or for what she went shopping.

I know she is not 'meaning' to say she was uncaring or callous. But that is what is sounds like to me. Tuesday morning, hours after she is leaning over the dying child in the entry way, and she is able to take her little sister on a shopping trip on the way to the airport? Sorry, but that does not sound that great to me. That little boy died violently on her watch, and he was supposedly super close to her, 'even closer than to his own mom' according to the sisters. And yet she can muster up the strength to shop?

I feel the same way about the attorney's statement that she had no guilt about the incident, even though in her next breath Bremner is saying it was a planking accident. If that little boy died while he was trying to plank from the upstairs balcony then RN should have had a lot of guilty feelings. imoo

I do not think the sisters are doing their deceased sister any favors by doing some of these interviews. Pointing out how 'jealous' DS was of Max's love for Rebeccah was a low blow given these tragic circumstances.

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 03:56 PM
In this photo, I see the red rope with evidence marker #29.

The blurry-looking smudgy thing beyond that looks like the carpet, to me.

Based on where the cell phone was drawn in the diagram, I think the phone was behind the door out of sight of this particular photo.

I see now (said the blind person). What looked like #29 to be the phone was actually the rope and the phone 8s #30 and behind the door. Thanks for the correction. :seeya:

katydid23
09-09-2011, 03:58 PM
Bellimom, in that picture you posted above, where the words 'toe impressions' to the right and above does that look like a blood drop to you? I know the spot above the 'boot impression' has been discussed before as possibly blood, it even looks like there may be a couple more that look like blood, imho.

I think there was a discussion earlier about that red stuff actually being bird/gull poop. Apparently the red berries in the yard and neighboring yards create red stained bird droppings.

cali_mommy
09-09-2011, 04:02 PM
The cell phone is #30, the rope is #29, so there is def NO cell phone in that pic lol. Is it just me or does the carpet look filthy,and the balcony dilapidated??? Doesn't look so posh to me

turanna25
09-09-2011, 04:03 PM
you know what I'm wondering about.. why did she need two knives in the guest room with her??

Another knife was also found next to her body on the lawn, but I'm assuming that one was used to cut the rope by the brother when he found her..

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 04:06 PM
Please humor me and go to the bottom of page 18. Could this be the shoe/boot that goes along with the single 'boot print' on the balcony?
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 04:11 PM
There is a marker next to it. Interesting!!

It looks like an evidence marker to me.

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 04:16 PM
It looks like an evidence marker to me.

Thank you, figured it out once I saw the diagram.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 04:21 PM
I would like to know the following statistic:

Of the documented suicides where a suicide note/message was left, what percentage left a cryptic note/message?

Wouldn't that suicidal person want to make sure that their last words were understood?

[Note: In the case of RZ, I do acknowledge that the meaning of the painted words was probably crystal clear to the intended recipient of the message. But, as far as we know, that recipient has not disclosed the meaning publicly.]

I noticed when Rebecca's sister has spoken she does not speak English as well as those who were born here.

I had wondered if the message left by Rebecca was also due to a language barrier of sorts.

IMO

turanna25
09-09-2011, 04:24 PM
Sunnie,

LOL I wondered that too! I think that's probably the boot of the person who is taking the crime scene photos. In that document it says that the boot imprint is that of a police officer not the crime scene investigator/photographer. It could be I guess though, right?

OT- BTW Sunnie, we have something in common.. we're both RN's! :-) You answered a lot of the medical questions I was going to answer the last few days before I had a chance to reply. I love how everyone on this thread has a lot of personal/professional knowledge to offer to the case. It really helps move it along and fill in the pieces.

You guys rock! :rocker:

Please humor me and go to the bottom of page 18. Could this be the shoe/boot that goes along with the single 'boot print' on the balcony?
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

Quester
09-09-2011, 04:27 PM
I noticed when Rebecca's sister has spoken she does not speak English as well as those who were born here.

I had wondered if the message left by Rebecca was also due to a language barrier of sorts.

IMO

Thanks Ocean.

However, I'm not convinced that that painted message was left by RZ.

MOO

turanna25
09-09-2011, 04:30 PM
I'm not either.. I wonder if there was any black paint found on her hands. Do we have the actual autopsy report on Rebecca anywhere?

Thanks Ocean.

However, I'm not convinced that that painted message was left by RZ.

MOO

Quester
09-09-2011, 04:35 PM
I'm not either.. I wonder if there was any black paint found on her hands. Do we have the actual autopsy report on Rebecca anywhere?

Black paint on RZ' hand and chest that I remember.

I think the autopsy reports can be found at the following:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

Salem
09-09-2011, 04:36 PM
I wish we had a thread for links only, no discussion, for this case. That way articles, autopsy reports, pictures, etc would be in a centralized location.

Last night there was discussion about the balcony windows and the rope. If there was a thread with links, it would have been easier to move pictures, or information forward.

Your wish, is my command :loser:

Please find a news media/timeline thread right here: CA Rebecca Zahau Naplepa Suicide or Murder? Media links&Timelines ONLY-NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

There is nothing posted there yet, so you guys have a lot to do to catch up :) Go Sleuths! :great:

ehough22
09-09-2011, 04:38 PM
I've wondered about the cryptic message too- I don't know the stats but I'm fairly certain I would not leave a cryptic message as my last words (disclaimer: I realize we can't rationalize a suicidal person's thinking, this is just me thinking out loud). She had a good relationship with her family. You'd think she would want to leave something for them. If the thinking is that she killed herself over Max, why is that not reflected (at least obviously) in the message? It's just a strange message for one's last words, imo. I can't imagine leaving a message that no one would understand and not being around to explain it. Maybe, indeed, there is someone who understands it. Playing along for a minute, if it was to JS from RZ, I wonder if he'd admit he understood?

Also, do we know for sure whether she was right or left handed? Someone sure wants us to think she's right handed, from reading the AR.

cali_mommy
09-09-2011, 04:39 PM
There was paint found on her fingers,hand,breast. A little too much for me,my six year old makes less of a mess. I think she may have even had paint on her back. Gonna go find link for ya :)

Peaceful
09-09-2011, 04:41 PM
Your wish, is my command :loser:

Please find a news media/timeline thread right here: CA Rebecca Zahau Naplepa Suicide or Murder? Media links&Timelines ONLY-NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7109726#post7109726)
:great:
There is nothing posted there yet, so you guys have a lot to do to catch up :) Go Sleuths! :great:

Dearest Salem, Thank you so much! you are #1!

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 05:06 PM
Salem, I can't thank you enough, as we will now have somewhere to keep the links that will be important down the road, or for those who join us!!! You are the BOMB!!!!! Thank you!!

Pach
09-09-2011, 05:08 PM
this is easy to solve. interview the people at the gym where she worked out and her friends , and ask them if they thought rebecca was hard to understand when she spoke and whether she spoke in a cryptical, mysterious manner.

if you ask me, the message reminds me of those taunting or cryptic messages that killers leave in horror movies which brings up the question of whether there have there been any famous killings/murders where the perpetrators left weird/taunting or cryptic messages ?? I remember "helter skelter" from the manson murders if my memory is right. any others ?? such as those taunting messages left by serial killers, etc


I noticed when Rebecca's sister has spoken she does not speak English as well as those who were born here.

I had wondered if the message left by Rebecca was also due to a language barrier of sorts.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 05:09 PM
Sunnie,

LOL I wondered that too! I think that's probably the boot of the person who is taking the crime scene photos. In that document it says that the boot imprint is that of a police officer not the crime scene investigator/photographer. It could be I guess though, right?

OT- BTW Sunnie, we have something in common.. we're both RN's! :-) You answered a lot of the medical questions I was going to answer the last few days before I had a chance to reply. I love how everyone on this thread has a lot of personal/professional knowledge to offer to the case. It really helps move it along and fill in the pieces.

You guys rock! :rocker:

Thank you for your response and I always find great information in your posts!!

I'm not either.. I wonder if there was any black paint found on her hands. Do we have the actual autopsy report on Rebecca anywhere?

Hopefully I will be able to utilize Salems thread for us and others will too!! We do have access to both Rebecca and Max's autopsy reports. I will attempt to link them for you!!

Again, thank you Salem!:great::woohoo::seeya:

Pach
09-09-2011, 05:10 PM
the paint smudge could have been made by another person who smeared it on Rebecca intentionally or while dragging her or by Rebecca herself. Either way. Still another reason why this case is of "undetermined" cause.


Black paint on RZ' hand and chest that I remember.

I think the autopsy reports can be found at the following:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

Pach
09-09-2011, 05:24 PM
heres a cool news article that summarizes our concerns over the cause of her death:
http://newsblaze.com/story/20110904171708kays.nb/topstory.html

ehough22
09-09-2011, 05:30 PM
I have been looking at these photos from my less than stellar phone, so I say this with the disclaimer that I could be wrong due to the quality at which I'm viewing them, but is the door to the guestroom and the carpet around it relatively clean? I don't see any paint elsewhere on the door and I see only a couple (conveniently placed?) drops elsewhere in the room. If the task was so messy that Rebecca ended up with paint on her body, I'd expect to see it dripping down the door and on the carpet. The brushes don't appear to be overly dirty, either. So she ended up with paint on her body yet didn't get any elsewhere on the door, on the carpet under the door, nor did she end up with any left on the brush? Sure. She also decided to take a shower before killing herself but didn't bother to clean the paint from herself.

SophieRose
09-09-2011, 05:44 PM
I noticed when Rebecca's sister has spoken she does not speak English as well as those who were born here.

I had wondered if the message left by Rebecca was also due to a language barrier of sorts.

IMO
I had wondered the same thing. I worked with a Filipina, who had been in the US at least 20 years, and she would get mix up he/she because the same word is used for both pronouns. Same with his/her. Perhaps the Burmese language may not have those pronouns.

Pach
09-09-2011, 05:45 PM
Not saying that a serial killer is on the loose. This case could be just a solitary homicide as well. Anything is possible... See below:

History of Serial Killers Taunting Police

A tarot card bearing a taunting message was found near the scene of one of the sniper attacks that have terrorized the Washington, D.C., area. As police try to determine whether the card is a message from the killer, or merely a prank, they may be thinking of past serial killers who have jeered at police — often in clues that led to their eventual capture.

Here is a look at some of the cases:

The Unabomber: Over the course of 18 years, Theodore Kaczynski carried out bombings that left three people dead and 29 injured. Investigators dubbed the killer the Unabomber because the original targets were associated with universities and airlines. He was caught when he released the ultimate taunt — a 35,000-word "manifesto," which he demanded newspapers print. When they did, his brother recognized his writing style and turned him in. Kaczynski was sentenced in 1998 to four life terms.

Son of Sam: David Berkowitz was caught in 1977 after a yearlong crime spree in New York during which he killed six people and wounded seven. A note he left at a crime scene read, in part: "I am a monster. I am the 'Son of Sam.'" Berkowitz sent several more notes, one to a reporter. Putting together the clues, the police eventually caught him. He is now serving a 364-year prison sentence.

The Zodiac Killer 1: There have been two Zodiac Killers. The first was confirmed to have killed five young people in the San Francisco area in the 1960s and 1970s, but he claimed a total of 37 victims. He was never caught, even though he sent a total of 21 letters to local newspapers, revealing details about the murders only the killer could know, enclosing in some envelopes swatches of cloth snipped from one of his victims, and signing off "Zodiac."

The Zodiac Killer 2: The second Zodiac killer attacked New York in 1990, shooting four people with different astrological signs, killing one. He wrote several notes to local newspapers and vowed to kill one person born under each of the 12 signs. Heriberto "Eddie" Seda was caught in 1996 and sentenced to at least 83 years in prison.

Hillside Strangler: This name, coined by the media, was actually two cousins who abducted, raped and killed 10 young women in the Los Angeles area in the late 1970s. The attackers taunted police by leaving their victims on hillsides, in areas where they were sure to be found — often near police stations. Angelo Buono and Kenneth Bianchi were eventually caught.

Jack the Ripper: The killer in one of the world's oldest and most notorious unsolved mysteries also taunted police through letters. Shortly after the second of the five murders he would commit between August and November 1888 in London, he identified himself as "Jack the Ripper." A subsequent letter included part of a kidney that he said came from one of his victims. In that letter he wrote, "Catch me when you can."

ABCNEWS' Andrew Chang contributed to this report.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91148&page=1

Carioca
09-09-2011, 05:59 PM
i have been looking at these photos from my less than stellar phone, so i say this with the disclaimer that i could be wrong due to the quality at which i'm viewing them, but is the door to the guestroom and the carpet around it relatively clean? I don't see any paint elsewhere on the door and i see only a couple (conveniently placed?) drops elsewhere in the room. If the task was so messy that rebecca ended up with paint on her body, i'd expect to see it dripping down the door and on the carpet. The brushes don't appear to be overly dirty, either. So she ended up with paint on her body yet didn't get any elsewhere on the door, on the carpet under the door, nor did she end up with any left on the brush? Sure. She also decided to take a shower before killing herself but didn't bother to clean the paint from herself.

brilliant ehough! So brilliant deserves to be repeated!!

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 06:10 PM
Does anyone have links that continue to work, with helicopter footage/news casts, from the day Rebecca died?

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 06:14 PM
Does anyone have links that continue to work, with helicopter footage/news casts, from the day Rebecca died?

I will look, but from what I've read, most have been removed ... ??

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 06:43 PM
I will look, but from what I've read, most have been removed ... ??

That's what I have found also. Thank you!

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 06:53 PM
So, now that all is 'said and done' and LE closed their investigations, do we know where they removed the carper, or why? I don't remember anything pertaining to the carpet in the PC. Anyone else?

Curious Me
09-09-2011, 06:58 PM
This says RZ was planning to take MS breakfast on the Wednesday morning she was found hanging. I think the reporter got it wrong though. It must mean she was going to take breakfast to JS.

Still JMO, RZ had no idea she was being totally blamed or singled out by someone angry or nervous about the MS accident.



http://newsblaze.com/story/20110904171708kays.nb/topstory.html
snipped..."the phone conversation that Mary had with Rebecca the day before she died (July 12th).

Zahau indicated her plans to take breakfast the next morning to the stricken Max Shacknai (the 6-year-old son of Jonah Shacknai)."

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 06:58 PM
So, now that all is 'said and done' and LE closed their investigations, do we know where they removed the carper, or why? I don't remember anything pertaining to the carpet in the PC. Anyone else?

I think it's all disappearing .. just like AS.

katydid23
09-09-2011, 07:07 PM
This says RZ was planning to take MS breakfast on the Wednesday morning she was found hanging. I think the reporter got it wrong though. It must mean she was going to take breakfast to JS.

Still JMO, RZ had no idea she was being totally blamed or singled out by someone angry or nervous about the MS accident.



http://newsblaze.com/story/20110904171708kays.nb/topstory.html
snipped..."the phone conversation that Mary had with Rebecca the day before she died (July 12th).

Zahau indicated her plans to take breakfast the next morning to the stricken Max Shacknai (the 6-year-old son of Jonah Shacknai)."

I do not think we can take everything she told her family as gospel. If she was being blamed would she tell her sister for sure? If she knew she was being banned from the hospital , do we know for certain that she would tell her sister that? Maybe not.

Morag
09-09-2011, 07:16 PM
Does anyone have links that continue to work, with helicopter footage/news casts, from the day Rebecca died?


This links works- as of this minute. There are several videos on the link, but the overhead shots are on #1, I think.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=6051226&redirected=true

Curious Me
09-09-2011, 07:21 PM
Does anyone have links that continue to work, with helicopter footage/news casts, from the day Rebecca died?

Here's some.

POSTED: 10:02 am PDT July 13, 2011
UPDATED: 7:29 pm PDT July 15, 2011
http://www.10news.com/news/28534601/detail.html



PHOTOS: Beach Mansion Death (WARNING: Disturbing Images)
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 07:27 PM
There was paint found on her fingers,hand,breast. A little too much for me,my six year old makes less of a mess. I think she may have even had paint on her back. Gonna go find link for ya :)

Making block (print) letters with a tube of paint would be messy imo.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 07:35 PM
I had wondered the same thing. I worked with a Filipina, who had been in the US at least 20 years, and she would get mix up he/she because the same word is used for both pronouns. Same with his/her. Perhaps the Burmese language may not have those pronouns.

That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing, Sophie!

IMO

jjenny
09-09-2011, 07:35 PM
This says RZ was planning to take MS breakfast on the Wednesday morning she was found hanging. I think the reporter got it wrong though. It must mean she was going to take breakfast to JS.

Still JMO, RZ had no idea she was being totally blamed or singled out by someone angry or nervous about the MS accident.



http://newsblaze.com/story/20110904171708kays.nb/topstory.html
snipped..."the phone conversation that Mary had with Rebecca the day before she died (July 12th).

Zahau indicated her plans to take breakfast the next morning to the stricken Max Shacknai (the 6-year-old son of Jonah Shacknai)."

Of course the reporter got it wrong. She was going to make breakfast for JS, not MS.

cali_mommy
09-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Making block (print) letters with a tube of paint would be messy imo.

IMO

Who said she used the paint tube???? More then likely the brushes found at the scene were used,by someone. I don't even think you can write a legible message on a door using just the tube:floorlaugh:

elfie
09-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Making block (print) letters with a tube of paint would be messy imo.

IMO

Difficult to believe that an artist would attempt to use paint straight from the tube rather than using at minimum a plate or saucer (we use Styrofoam or plastic plates), or artistically, a palette.

Another mystery. She ties knots like a longshoreman, but in her own particular area of expertise she falls short.

Cortne
09-09-2011, 07:46 PM
Who said she used the paint tube???? More then likely the brushes found at the scene were used,by someone. I don't even think you can write a legible message on a door using just the tube:floorlaugh:She did use tube paint. Take a look at the evidence pics.

I dont think it was insinuated there were no brushes used. The paint came from a TUBE!!

tiredblondy
09-09-2011, 07:49 PM
:seeya:
Oh wow, I'm just checking in and see we have a media thread...

Thanks Salem and to all you wonderful contributors. :tyou:

I can't stay but will be back much later..You guys rock!
:yourock:

elfie
09-09-2011, 07:51 PM
She did use tube paint. Take a look at the evidence pics.

I dont think it was insinuated there were no brushes used. The paint came from a TUBE!!

But no evidence of a container that was used to take the paint from. No artist squirts the paint from a tube on to the brush.

ETA: or dabs the paint from the tube, either.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 07:59 PM
Who said she used the paint tube???? More then likely the brushes found at the scene were used,by someone. I don't even think you can write a legible message on a door using just the tube:floorlaugh:

Thats true. If she used the black tube of paint found and the (artist?) paintbrush she would have to dab the paintbrush on top of the tube or squeeze some of the paint out on the paintbrush.

That would still be messy since there is no evidence that she used something to take the excess paint off of the brush.

Of course she could paint with just pressing the tube up against the door and releasing a small amount of paint as she wrote if the opening in the tip of the paint tube was rather small, imo.

There would be small drips either way though since she was writing with her hand above her chest, imo. I think that is why it was found on her hand and chest.

She must have done this when she was naked.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 07:59 PM
I read a comment, that on the Dr. Drew show, the rope expert stated that with Rebecca's weight on the rope, that it would exert 600 lbs of pressure on the bannister railing of the balcony. He said it should have made an indetation on the bannister.

Since so many posters here have spoken about the bad shape that the banister was in, I am surprised that nothing did happen to the railing.

Cortne
09-09-2011, 08:01 PM
But no evidence of a container that was used to take the paint from. No artist squirts the paint from a tube on to the brush.

ETA: or dabs the paint from the tube, either.


I doubt being a proper artist was on her mind at that time.


jmo

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 08:01 PM
Thats true. If she used the black tube of paint found and the paintbrush she would have to dab the paintbrush on top of the tube or squeeze some of the paint out on the paintbrush.

That would still be messy.

Of course she could paint with just pressing the tube up against the door and releasing a small amount of paint as she wrote if the opening in the tip of the paint tube was rather small, imo.

There would be drips though either way though, imo.

She must have done this when she was naked.

IMO

What about the door its self, or the carpet? I think with the amount of paint on her body, there is a huge LACK og paint on the door or carpet. (drips)

Cortne
09-09-2011, 08:06 PM
In one of the pics w the white trash bag, paint brushes and knives there appears to me to be slight discoloration, perhaps black paint smears. Ijdk.

sorrell skye
09-09-2011, 08:08 PM
I read a comment, that on the Dr. Drew show, the rope expert stated that with Rebecca's weight on the rope, that it would exert 600 lbs of pressure on the bannister railing of the balcony. He said it should have made an indetation on the bannister.

Since so many posters here have spoken about the bad shape that the banister was in, I am surprised that nothing did happen to the railing.

Wow - 600 lbs! Thx for that info!

elfie
09-09-2011, 08:10 PM
I doubt being a proper artist was on her mind at that time.


jmo

I doubt that she painted the message at all.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 08:10 PM
I read a comment, that on the Dr. Drew show, the rope expert stated that with Rebecca's weight on the rope, that it would exert 600 lbs of pressure on the bannister railing of the balcony. He said it should have made an indetation on the bannister.

Since so many posters here have spoken about the bad shape that the banister was in, I am surprised that nothing did happen to the railing.

I think the wrought iron railing with three iron supports bolted into the concrete wall was strong. Much stronger than 600 pounds.

But I do think with the force and energy plus the ME saying she went over in an angular position made the minor hemorrhages found as her head grazed the balcony as she was going over.

IMO

cali_mommy
09-09-2011, 08:11 PM
She did use tube paint. Take a look at the evidence pics.

I dont think it was insinuated there were no brushes used. The paint came from a TUBE!!

I have looked at the photos. And the poster I was responding to clearly stated MAKING block letters with a tube of paint can be messy. So not sure what your getting at. Her statement is quite clear,so not sure what your point is. Iam not looking to argue or have any conflict with anyone. But I know the same can't be said for everyone. I am taking a break from posting here,emotions are getting to involved for me.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 08:21 PM
What about the door its self, or the carpet? I think with the amount of paint on her body, there is a huge LACK og paint on the door or carpet. (drips)

Oh I don't think the paint was dripping like melted butter but I do think as she put her hand up against the door to write she got some paint on her hands and may have even touched her chest not even realizing or caring that she had paint on her. Or she may have gotten it when she took the top off of the paint tube and it got transfered in different areas on her.

She may not have dripped any at all. I was just speculating if she used the tube directly on the door she may have.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 08:26 PM
I doubt being a proper artist was on her mind at that time.


jmo

I agree.

I dont even think that crossed her mind.

ehough22
09-09-2011, 08:27 PM
I just feel like it stands to reason that if the paint was messy enough to drip onto Rebecca (and not just her hand) then it would be messy enough to be somewhere on the door or the carpet underneath the door (I realize it's elsewhere on the carpet, but I would think it would be under the area she painted). The paintbrush does look rather pristine which does beg the question as to whether or not it was even used- I hadn't thought of the possibility that she used it straight from the tube, but it would be possible, though one would think even messier.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 08:31 PM
I just feel like it stands to reason that if the paint was messy enough to drip onto Rebecca (and not just her hand) then it would be messy enough to be somewhere on the door or the carpet underneath the door (I realize it's elsewhere on the carpet, but I would think it would be under the area she painted). The paintbrush does look rather pristine which does beg the question as to whether or not it was even used- I hadn't thought of the possibility that she used it straight from the tube, but it would be possible, though one would think even messier.

Did the ME say it was a drip pattern? It easily could have been a smear patterns from hand transfer, imo. She may have gotten the black paint on her hand when she took of the tube top and then transfered it elsewhere.

Just a little bit of paint can be smeared here and there easily if it is not gotten off.

IMO

ehough22
09-09-2011, 08:37 PM
No, I don't believe it was specified, drip vs. smear. I guess I was thinking drip because it was found in places lower than where she'd be writing (like her nipple, sorry to be graphic). And also because the few spots we do see on the carpet appear to be drips. Food for thought.

Quester
09-09-2011, 08:40 PM
Along with all of the other factors involved in binding and prepping for the swan dive, it just seem awfully convenient that next to the cryptic message in paint and block letters that RZ's fingerprint in paint is emblazoned like a signature. MOO

Pach
09-09-2011, 08:41 PM
Rebecca's family is setting up a website seeking donations to pay for an independent investigation. I wonder if Mr. Shacknai will make a donation ????? By the way, did he rush to the mansion upon learning of Rebecca's death ?? If I was the boyfriend, heck yeah !, I would rush over, and I would hold a press conference and be indignant about her death.

Family dispute cause of drug company CEO girlfriend's death
By Marty Graham

SAN DIEGO | Fri Sep 9, 2011 9:40am EDT

SAN DIEGO (Reuters) - The ex-husband and relatives of the woman found hanged, bound and nude at the mansion of a wealthy pharmaceutical executive are seeking donations for a private investigation to challenge the official ruling of her death as a suicide.

A lawyer representing family members of Rebecca Zahau said on Thursday that a confidential coroner's report she obtained reveals several pieces of previously undisclosed evidence that cast doubt on conclusions reached by sheriff's investigators.

Relatives of Zahau have said since the official probe of her death concluded late last week that they did not believe the official finding that she had taken her own life at the estate of her boyfriend, Jonah Shacknai, founder and CEO of Medicis Pharmaceutical Corp.

The Arizona-based company is the maker of the popular wrinkle filler Restylane and the acne treatment Solodyn.

The bizarre death on July 13 came two days after Shacknai's 6-year-old son Max was critically injured in a fall from a staircase while being looked after by Zahau at the mansion near San Diego. The boy died six days later.

Last Friday, San Diego County Sheriff Bill Gore held a news conference to announce that foul play had been ruled out in both deaths. Investigators concluded that Zahau had committed suicide hours after learning in a late-night phone call that Max, then still hospitalized, had taken a turn for the worse.

They even released an unusual video demonstration of how investigators believed Zahau, 32, had managed to tie her own hands behind her back before binding her own legs, slipping a noose around her neck, and hurling herself off a second-story balcony.

Her lifeless, nude body was found suspended by the neck from a rope later that morning by Shacknai's brother, a guest at the estate at the time.

This week, relatives of Zahau and her former husband, Neil Nalepa, set up a website seeking donations "to help us fight to get justice for ... Rebecca."

"It was obvious that the sheriff's department had worked too hard to paint this picture of suicide, and they were not about to let the Zahaus ruin it," the website said. "Now the family is left to fight for justice themselves, and this fight is an expensive one."

Seattle-based lawyer Anne Bremner, who is representing Zahau's family, told Reuters on Thursday that she has retained "forensic and psychiatric experts to take another look at the findings and the underlying evidence."

She cited several bits of undisclosed evidence contained in the medical examiner's report, including that Zahau's body was found with a T-shirt stuffed into her mouth, residue of tape on her legs, signs of trauma to the top of her head and blood on her legs.

"Just on the facts, this doesn't pass the smell test," Bremner said of the suicide ruling.

Sheriff's investigators have said there were no signs of a struggle, sexual assault or drugs in her system and no indication that Zahau was incapacitated before she was hanged.

"Becky did not commit suicide. My sister was murdered," Zahau's sister, Snowem Horwath, said in an email from her home in Germany after the suicide ruling was announced. "We had a very normal conversation that evening ... I know my sister very well, and there is no way anyone can convince me that she did this to herself!"

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 08:48 PM
Oh I don't think the paint was dripping like melted butter but I do think as she put her hand up against the door to write she got some paint on her hands and may have even touched her chest not even realizing or caring that she had paint on her. Or she may have gotten it when she took the top off of the paint tube and it got transfered in different areas on her.

She may not have dripped any at all. I was just speculating if she used the tube directly on the door she may have.

IMO

If you look at the door, the placement of the door knob and the whited out area of the door, you will notice that the message was most likely written/block lettered, at least as high or higher than Rebecca's eye level.

I find it impossible to think this can be done without drops on the door its self/ Not only that, there are drips at the end of the bed, just from opening the tube of paint. There should have been a bigger mess, imho/

jjenny
09-09-2011, 08:48 PM
I think the wrought iron railing with three iron supports bolted into the concrete wall was strong. Much stronger than 600 pounds.

But I do think with the force and energy plus the ME saying she went over in an angular position made the minor hemorrhages found as her head grazed the balcony as she was going over.

IMO

If it was so strong why didn't she just tie a rope to the railing? Why would she need to anchor it to the bed?

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 08:52 PM
If it was so strong why didn't she just tie a rope to the railing? Why would she need to anchor it to the bed?

I dont know. I wasn't the one planning this, jjenny.

IMO

cluciano63
09-09-2011, 08:57 PM
So do both families believe LE is lying? R's family about her death, and M's mom, about his??

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 08:59 PM
I think the wrought iron railing with three iron supports bolted into the concrete wall was strong. Much stronger than 600 pounds.

But I do think with the force and energy plus the ME saying she went over in an angular position made the minor hemorrhages found as her head grazed the balcony as she was going over.

IMO

This has been bothering me. LE stated that in order for Rebecca to go over the railing at her height, she would have had to go over head first. They showed an 11" area, that according to them, is where Rebecca went over head first.

I am not sure where the sideways over the rail story started, except to try and explain injuries, but there would have had to be a wider area of disturbance on the banister for that to have been true.

If Rebecca did go over the bannister sideways, there would be even less of a chance of her injuring the TOP of her head. Front, back, the side closest to the bannister maybe, but the top of the head would have been much more protected than if she had done a swan dive.

Remember, tow ropes are not made to bounce. They are coated, causing them to float, not sink, while pulling objects in the water. She would not have 'bounced' back up and hit her head either.

The injuries to the left side of her neck, are consistent with strangulation wounds, along with the facial congestion and the petechiae.

In my mind, 1+1 is NOT coming together to indicate any chance of getting 4 head wounds on top of her head in this manner, nor does it explain obvious signs of strangulation.

justice be served
09-09-2011, 09:02 PM
So do both families believe LE is lying? R's family about her death, and M's mom, about his??

I think lying, on a scale of 1 to 10, is a 10. I am in the range of a 6 on the scale. I believe the influences on LE were great and from both external and internal sources. The outcomes/rulings seemed to work toward a predetermined conclusion on both deaths IMO.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 09:04 PM
If you look at the door, the placement of the door knob and the whited out area of the door, you will notice that the message was most likely written/block lettered, at least as high or higher than Rebecca's eye level.

I find it impossible to think this can be done without drops on the door its self/ Not only that, there are drips at the end of the bed, just from opening the tube of paint. There should have been a bigger mess, imho/

I am 5'4' (1 inch taller than RN) and I just checked to see if I had to write in the same area of the door could I easily write in that area. It wouldnt be hard to do at all. She could do it flat footed.

I think she wrote the message higher so it could be seen by maybe someone she knew was around that height and it would be eye level.

I really think she thought Jonah would be the one to find her. That is why she wrote the message on the outside of the guest room door in the mansion. She probably thought if he tried to call her again and couldnt get her he would come home to see where she was and why she wasnt answering the phone.

IMO

jjenny
09-09-2011, 09:08 PM
I am 5'4' (1 inch taller than RN) and I just checked to see if I had to write in the same area of the door could I easily write in that area. It wouldnt be hard to do at all. She could do it flat footed.

I think she wrote the message higher so it could be seen by maybe someone she knew was around that height and it would be eye level.

I really think she thought Jonah would be the one to find her. That is why she wrote the message on the outside of the guest room door in the mansion. She probably thought if he tried to call her again and couldnt get her he would come home to see where she was and why she wasnt answering the phone.

IMO

If she actually killed herself, she would have to know AS was going to find her. AS was the one staying in the guest house, not JS. JS was in the hospital or the house across the street from the hospital. And frankly if she thought JS would care so much as to show up at his home to see why she was not answering the phone, why would she kill herself to begin with?

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 09:09 PM
I am 5'4' (1 inch taller than RN) and I just checked to see if I had to write in the same area of the door could I easily write in that area. It wouldnt be hard to do at all. She could do it flat footed.

I think she wrote the message higher so it could be seen by maybe someone she knew was around that height and it would be eye level.

I really think she thought Jonah would be the one to find her. That is why she wrote the message on the outside of the guest room door in the mansion. She probably thought if he tried to call her again and couldnt get her he would come home to see where she was and why she wasnt answering the phone.

IMO

I'm sorry, I don't think I explained my thoughts well.:crazy:

I was trying to say, that painting it higher, should have been messier, as it would have been equal to or above her eye level. Meaning she would have to raise her arm to do so. imo only

justice be served
09-09-2011, 09:10 PM
I am 5'4' (1 inch taller than RN) and I just checked to see if I had to write in the same area of the door could I easily write in that area. It wouldnt be hard to do at all. She could do it flat footed.

I think she wrote the message higher so it could be seen by maybe someone she knew was around that height and it would be eye level.

I really think she thought Jonah would be the one to find her. That is why she wrote the message on the outside of the guest room door in the mansion. She probably thought if he tried to call her again and couldnt get her he would come home to see where she was and why she wasnt answering the phone.

IMO

I highly doubt she had the critical thinking skills at that moment to think of writing at Jonah's height. But I also don't think she wrote it so it's a moot point for me.

Aking
09-09-2011, 09:13 PM
All I can say is I'm truly confused as ever. I initially thought murder, but then after seeing all the findings (no specific sorce) I now tend to lean towards suicide. I know the bizarre knots and weird cryptic message don't help.......but I honestly think suicide is very plausible in this case. A lot of people keep referring to her mental health and well being months, days, and hours up to her death as reasons to why or why not she would have done this to herself. But I can honestly speak from experience....my father committed suicide and anyone that knew him would strongly disagree with the outcome of his demise had it not been clear cut that he did it to himself. I think us (rational human beings) can't fathom how someone would go to great lenths to do this, but trust me, they go beyond what most would suggest physically impossible. I'm not here to debate, but rather give my 2 cents. I don't open up much about my fathers suicide, but I feel my friends at websleuths can understand my point of view (atleast some). FWIW, my father shot himself with a 12 gauge shotgun, the way the corner explained the way he held the gun did not anotomically make sense to where the wounds were found, however we know he did take his own life. Point being.....even though some things seem impossible or hard to physically do, they are very possible. I'm saddened by Rebecca's death, still open minded, but everyone has a breaking point (no matter how much their immediate family knows or what the victim relays to their family). If I or more family had known what was going on in my fathers head completely, he might still be alive, and I believe the same for Rebecca's family......everyone puts on a show.....you don't come out waiving a flag that says "I'm about to kill myself", you act like everything's fine and then do the deed. Of couse, this is my personal opinion and experience. Again, I'm still open to Rebecca's death not being suicide, but I think I can picture it more eaily than others.

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 09:14 PM
So do both families believe LE is lying? R's family about her death, and M's mom, about his??

From various comments I have read on several sites, I think DS does not so much think LE lied, but that they made a grievous error, in not realizing that 'someone' smothered Max. I have not heard her say anything concerning the fall however and I think that would be very interesting.

Rebecca's family believes that LE came to the incorrect conclusion. I am not sure they said LR lied, but did say in no uncertain terms, that they got it wrong.

justice be served
09-09-2011, 09:17 PM
Your post gave me pause - and a part of me really wants to believe it was suicide. Thank you SO much. It is greatly appreciated.

All I can say is I'm truly confused as ever. I initially thought murder, but then after seeing all the findings (no specific sorce) I now tend to lean towards suicide. I know the bizarre knots and weird cryptic message don't help.......but I honestly think suicide is very plausible in this case. A lot of people keep referring to her mental health and well being months, days, and hours up to her death as reasons to why or why not she would have done this to herself. But I can honestly speak from experience....my father committed suicide and anyone that knew him would strongly disagree with the outcome of his demise had it not been clear cut that he did it to himself. I think us (rational human beings) can't fathom how someone would go to great lenths to do this, but trust me, they go beyond what most would suggest physically impossible. I'm not here to debate, but rather give my 2 cents. I don't open up much about my fathers suicide, but I feel my friends at websleuths can understand my point of view (atleast some). FWIW, my father shot himself with a 12 gauge shotgun, the way the corner explained the way he held the gun did not anotomically make sense to where the wounds were found, however we know he did take his own life. Point being.....even though some things seem impossible or hard to physically do, they are very possible. I'm saddened by Rebecca's death, still open minded, but everyone has a breaking point (no matter how much their immediate family knows or what the victim relays to their family). If I or more family had known what was going on in my fathers head completely, he might still be alive, and I believe the same for Rebecca's family......everyone puts on a show.....you don't come out waiving a flag that says "I'm about to kill myskef", you act like everything's fine and then do the deed. Of couse, this is my personal opinion and experience. Again, I'm still open to Rebecca's death not being suicide, but I think I can picture it more eaily than others.

Brit
09-09-2011, 09:18 PM
I have been following this case from the beginning because of the bazaar circumstances surrounding it. I have been reading many of the posts since the beginning, and this is my first post.

In my opinion, I don't think that it is odd that RZ went shopping on the way to the airport to drop of the younger sister/ pick up AS. She was having an out of town guest who, considering the circumstances for his arrival, probably wouldn't have the time to go on his own to get essentials like O.J. or milk. On top of that, she was dropping off her younger sister, who is only 13 years old and just experianced a very traumatic event. Maybe she wanted to find something to calm this little girl down. In my experiance, when you have the responsibility for the care of a child, even if she is 13...that child's well being comes ahead of your own needs, even in times of hardship. You put that child's needs ahead of your own emotional needs because that is just the right thing to do. In my open, this does not show that RZ had mental problems....it might show that she had ALOT on her plate at that time, and in my opinion even show her strength in a time of tragedy. Seems to me that between the statements thru the media about her taking food and change of clothes up to the hospital, drop off's and pick ups at the airport, and taking care of boarding the dog, that she was the one that was trying to take care of the little details so that no one else had to worry or focus on anything other than MS. This, to me, shows a strength of character not "mental issues".

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 09:20 PM
This has been bothering me. LE stated that in order for Rebecca to go over the railing at her height, she would have had to go over head first. They showed an 11" area, that according to them, is where Rebecca went over head first.

I am not sure where the sideways over the rail story started, except to try and explain injuries, but there would have had to be a wider area of disturbance on the banister for that to have been true.

If Rebecca did go over the bannister sideways, there would be even less of a chance of her injuring the TOP of her head. Front, back, the side closest to the bannister maybe, but the top of the head would have been much more protected than if she had done a swan dive.

Remember, tow ropes are not made to bounce. They are coated, causing them to float, not sink, while pulling objects in the water. She would not have 'bounced' back up and hit her head either.

The injuries to the left side of her neck, are consistent with strangulation wounds, along with the facial congestion and the petechiae.

In my mind, 1+1 is NOT coming together to indicate any chance of getting 4 head wounds on top of her head in this manner, nor does it explain obvious signs of strangulation.

Gosh I will have to read the autopsy report again......I am missing things I guess.

I thought the ME said he thought she went over at an angular position..not a head dive. That means to me she rested one hip up on the railing and that is why only 11 inches? of dust was disturbed and then swung her legs and feet over and propelled off. If she did not push off far enough then one side on the top of her head could have grazed the scroll work which is not solid but open in areas. We do not know if she twisted from the force when she jumped off or she may have had her head arched way back when she jumped.

Tow ropes are flexible though. They aren't ridgid like a steel rod that has no play in it. The energy amassed and the force of her fall would make the rope swing like a pendulum. A thin rope cannot steady and control a hundred pound body where it will drop straight down and never swing imo. We also don't know if the rope may have been twisted when she repelled off. If so the body would spin until the rope was no longer twisted.


IMO

cluciano63
09-09-2011, 09:32 PM
From various comments I have read on several sites, I think DS does not so much think LE lied, but that they made a grievous error, in not realizing that 'someone' smothered Max. I have not heard her say anything concerning the fall however and I think that would be very interesting.

Rebecca's family believes that LE came to the incorrect conclusion. I am not sure they said LR lied, but did say in no uncertain terms, that they got it wrong.

I thought R's family believed that the S's family inflence affected the outcome...also, isn't is strictly up to the ME to determine manner of death? Rather than LE? Or are we supposed to believe that the ME's office too is in on whatever cover-up is happening? I am confused...

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 09:32 PM
I have a question. Why was the dog boarded? Who requested it? Anyone seen anything about it? Is he/she still alive?

Quester
09-09-2011, 09:36 PM
Interesting detailed analysis of LE's theory on MS' fall:

9/9 THM: [RZ] case: How [MS]’s accident didn’t happen

There is no way in hell[o] [MS] fell over the railing of the [S] mansion stairwell the way the Coronado police department has depicted it in this model. NO WAY.
...
One thing is certain, [MS] didn’t fall over the rail the way they told the public he did.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 09:37 PM
Gosh I will have to read the autopsy report again......I am missing things I guess.

I thought the ME said he thought she went over at an angular position..not a head dive. That means to me she rested one hip up on the railing and that is why only 11 inches? of dust was disturbed and then swung her legs and feet over and propelled off. If she did not push off far enough then one side on the top of her head could have grazed the scroll work which is not solid but open in areas. We do not know if she twisted from the force when she jumped off or she may have had her head arched way back when she jumped.

Tow ropes are flexible though. They aren't ridgid like a steel rod that has no play in it. The energy amassed and the force of her fall would make the rope swing like a pendulum. A thin rope cannot steady and control a hundred pound body where it will drop straight down and never swing imo. We also don't know if the rope may have been twisted when she repelled off. If so the body would spin until the rope was no longer twisted.


IMO

I think that force could have also affected the bannister.

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 09:47 PM
I thought R's family believed that the S's family inflence affected the outcome...also, isn't is strictly up to the ME to determine manner of death? Rather than LE? Or are we supposed to believe that the ME's office too is in on whatever cover-up is happening? I am confused...

I am not trying to insinuate there is a cover up. I thought that the Zahou lawyer talked about influence and the family stated she did not commit suicide. Not positive, but fairly sure anyway.:waitasec:

Carioca
09-09-2011, 09:50 PM
Does anyone have links that continue to work, with helicopter footage/news casts, from the day Rebecca died?

These are links to the first videos on July 13. They still work for me but have made copies just in case they 'mysteriously' disappear from the web:

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=6051226&redirected=true

http://www.10news.com/video/28541247/index.html

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 09:50 PM
I think that force could have also affected the bannister.

I think the iron scroll enclosure around the balcony was much stronger than Rebecca's head.

I think her head just grazed it and that is why the hemorrhages are minor and didn't even cause bleeding in the brain or skull cavity.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 09:53 PM
I have a question. Why was the dog boarded? Who requested it? Anyone seen anything about it? Is he/she still alive?

We may never know that answer.

It was Rebecca who called the kennel to have her dog boarded.

I would think she is still alive. It was said that both Max and Rebecca loved Ocean.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 09:53 PM
All I can say is I'm truly confused as ever. I initially thought murder, but then after seeing all the findings (no specific sorce) I now tend to lean towards suicide. I know the bizarre knots and weird cryptic message don't help.......but I honestly think suicide is very plausible in this case. A lot of people keep referring to her mental health and well being months, days, and hours up to her death as reasons to why or why not she would have done this to herself. But I can honestly speak from experience....my father committed suicide and anyone that knew him would strongly disagree with the outcome of his demise had it not been clear cut that he did it to himself. I think us (rational human beings) can't fathom how someone would go to great lenths to do this, but trust me, they go beyond what most would suggest physically impossible. I'm not here to debate, but rather give my 2 cents. I don't open up much about my fathers suicide, but I feel my friends at websleuths can understand my point of view (atleast some). FWIW, my father shot himself with a 12 gauge shotgun, the way the corner explained the way he held the gun did not anotomically make sense to where the wounds were found, however we know he did take his own life. Point being.....even though some things seem impossible or hard to physically do, they are very possible. I'm saddened by Rebecca's death, still open minded, but everyone has a breaking point (no matter how much their immediate family knows or what the victim relays to their family). If I or more family had known what was going on in my fathers head completely, he might still be alive, and I believe the same for Rebecca's family......everyone puts on a show.....you don't come out waiving a flag that says "I'm about to kill myself", you act like everything's fine and then do the deed. Of couse, this is my personal opinion and experience. Again, I'm still open to Rebecca's death not being suicide, but I think I can picture it more eaily than others.

Aking welcome to websleuths and thank you so much for caring enough to share your thoughts with us!!

:welcome:

starbright
09-09-2011, 09:53 PM
Hello WS community. I am a new to this site, but I've been following this case for awhile. I've enjoyed reading your posts and have learned so much, thank you! I don't know if anyone has asked this yet and had it answered, but I've been wondering about the paint found on her fingers and hands. I don't think it was noted in the AR if there was any paint found on the t-shirt that was wrapped around her neck and in her mouth, any on the ropes, bed post? I remember reading there was a fingerprint on the door with the painted message, but what about all of the other items that she had to have touched in order to carry out this suicide. Since she still had paint on her fingers and hands in death, she didn't wipe her hands fully clean before binding herself and wrapping the t-shirt, there must be traces of it on all the items that she touched?

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 09:58 PM
Hello WS community. I am a new to this site, but I've been following this case for awhile. I've enjoyed reading your posts and have learned so much, thank you! I don't know if anyone has asked this yet and had it answered, but I've been wondering about the paint found on her fingers and hands. I don't think it was noted in the AR if there was any paint found on the t-shirt that was wrapped around her neck and in her mouth, any on the ropes, bed post? I remember reading there was a fingerprint on the door with the painted message, but what about all of the other items that she had to have touched in order to carry out this suicide. Since she still had paint on her fingers and hands in death, she didn't wipe her hands fully clean before binding herself and wrapping the t-shirt, there must be traces of it on all the items that she touched?

What a fantastic first post!!!!!!!

:welcome:

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 09:59 PM
If she actually killed herself, she would have to know AS was going to find her. AS was the one staying in the guest house, not JS. JS was in the hospital or the house across the street from the hospital. And frankly if she thought JS would care so much as to show up at his home to see why she was not answering the phone, why would she kill herself to begin with?

Not if she thought Jonah would call back in the middle of the night since he didnt get her the first time. She may have thought he would have come home then and AS would have still been sleeping. There is no guarantee Jonah would have called AS anyway to go to the mansion. He may have thought he should handle it personally. We just dont know.

Maybe she wanted him to find her. I dont really know. It is impossible to get into the mind of a dead sucide victim.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 10:05 PM
These are links to the first videos on July 13. They still work for me but have made copies just in case they 'mysteriously' disappear from the web:

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-remain-after-deaths-of-coronado-mansion-owners-son-girlfriend?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=6051226&redirected=true

http://www.10news.com/video/28541247/index.html

Since we have a wonderful place to save things now, can I ask you to please post the links there also?! Thank you!! It is nice to know we will have them after they 'disappear', as some things have seemed to!!



Your wish, is my command :loser:

Please find a news media/timeline thread right here: CA Rebecca Zahau Naplepa Suicide or Murder? Media links&Timelines ONLY-NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7109726#post7109726)

There is nothing posted there yet, so you guys have a lot to do to catch up :) Go Sleuths! :great:

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 10:06 PM
Suspicious me .. has anyone noticed any missing posts in these threads? Just curious ..

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 10:09 PM
I think the iron scroll enclosure around the balcony was much stronger than Rebecca's head.

I think her head just grazed it and that is why the hemorrhages are minor and didn't even cause bleeding in the brain or skull cavity.

IMO

My goodness, now I KNOW I am having a hard time with my communication skills tonight.

Damage to the bannister, from the force of her body weight and the rope itself on the bannister. I am fairly certain, she did not get 4 blunt force trauma wounds from the bannister. The rope was too long and they are on the TOP of her head.

moo, imho etc.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 10:16 PM
I thought R's family believed that the S's family influence affected the outcome...also, isn't is strictly up to the ME to determine manner of death? Rather than LE? Or are we supposed to believe that the ME's office too is in on whatever cover-up is happening? I am confused...

BBM

Yes, they do. They think Jonah's wealth has bought off four completely different police agencies.

Everyone involved would have to be in on the cover up. Didn't happen imo.

Because of those accusations among other things said by Bremner and the Z family is why JSs attorney found it necessary to write the letter to Anne.

IMO

arielilane
09-09-2011, 10:16 PM
I am 5'4' (1 inch taller than RN) and I just checked to see if I had to write in the same area of the door could I easily write in that area. It wouldnt be hard to do at all. She could do it flat footed.

I think she wrote the message higher so it could be seen by maybe someone she knew was around that height and it would be eye level.

I really think she thought Jonah would be the one to find her. That is why she wrote the message on the outside of the guest room door in the mansion. She probably thought if he tried to call her again and couldnt get her he would come home to see where she was and why she wasnt answering the phone.

IMO
Again, there is too much thought into this "suicide". A 5'3" person is not going to paint something at someone else's eye level. I'm 5'2" and that (my test) was uncomfortable at that level to paint!

Yoda
09-09-2011, 10:16 PM
In the photos of the balcony- there is 11" marked off but then another arrow. Is this where the rope was? If it is why didn't it come from behind her? If it slid over then would the dust on the railing have been completely disturbed between her body marks and where the rope ended? And if there was slack in the rope before going over the balcony wouldn't it have disturbed dust in the floor of the balcony?

arielilane
09-09-2011, 10:17 PM
http://www.wuerziworld.de/Smilies/pc/pc30.gif I forgot to say hello everyone!

Yoda
09-09-2011, 10:19 PM
Sorry, lots of questions. If she leaned over head first. Was any hair caught in the scrolls?

arielilane
09-09-2011, 10:21 PM
http://www.wuerziworld.de/Smilies/pc/pc26.gif Welcome to WS, starbright and Yoda!!!

Brit
09-09-2011, 10:21 PM
BBM

Yes, they do. They think Jonah's wealth has bought off four completely different police agencies.

Everyone involved would have to be in on the cover up. Didn't happen imo.

Because of those accusations among other things said by Bremner and the Z family is why JSs attorney found it necessary to write the letter to Anne.

IMO



I don't remember reading or seeing one thing that the family of RZ ever stated whatsoever that jonah's wealth bought off anyone. I would love to see the links if you have found anything different. I haven't even seen Bremner say anything directly about the JS family.

ehough22
09-09-2011, 10:21 PM
Do we know the length of the balcony (or is it the width? The measurement from the doors to the railing). I have a possible theory on the head wounds but am not sure if it's possible, not knowing the measurements.

And welcome, starbright- I had a similar thought. The rope tied around the bed is very very close to the ground; you'd think her hand would have smudged paint on the carpet there (assuming she painted before she tied, which I realize we don't know). It's just awfully convenient to me that there's paint on her body but not in the other usual places.

Also, regarding Jonah buying off LE- IMO, there's a difference between purposely and knowingly buying off LE, and being influential due to your wealth. I'm not saying that happened here but I can understand that point of view.

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 10:25 PM
Sorry, lots of questions. If she leaned over head first. Was any hair caught in the scrolls?

Questions are great!! They help us all think!! I would think the rope should have been behind her, and her hair was under the noose and then wrapped three times with the blue t=shirt also!!!

May your force be strong, so we can solve this mystery!! :welcome:

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 10:28 PM
Do we know the length of the balcony (or is it the width? The measurement from the doors to the railing). I have a possible theory on the head wounds but am not sure if it's possible, not knowing the measurements.

And welcome, starbright- I had a similar thought. The rope tied around the bed is very very close to the ground; you'd think her hand would have smudged paint on the carpet there (assuming she painted before she tied, which I realize we don't know). It's just awfully convenient to me that there's paint on her body but not in the other usual places.

Also, regarding Jonah buying off LE- IMO, there's a difference between purposely and knowingly buying off LE, and being influential due to your wealth. I'm not saying that happened here but I can understand that point of view.

I read that it is 27" from the door to the bannister, but LE said 3'. The other measurement came from sleuthers who used her foot prints as a guide for size.

elfie
09-09-2011, 10:32 PM
Interesting detailed analysis of LE's theory on MS' fall:

9/9 THM: [RZ] case: How [MS]’s accident didn’t happen

There is no way in hell[o] [MS] fell over the railing of the [S] mansion stairwell the way the Coronado police department has depicted it in this model. NO WAY.
...
One thing is certain, [MS] didn’t fall over the rail the way they told the public he did.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

I tend to agree. Rebecca's statement was that Max was told not to ride the Razor scooter in the 2nd floor hallway. If he were riding the scooter and went down the top step and then hit the railing, with the added height of the scooter he may have been propelled up and over with enough force to reach the chandelier and the opposite railing.

In the context of the scooter resting on his shin when he was found, he would have needed to cling to the scooter long enough for it to go over as well in order for it to land on top of him. In that scenario he may have made it to the chandelier, but likely not to the opposite railing.

Did LE think that the scooter was a the bottom of the stairs in the alcove and it tipped on top of him and the end of the fall?

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 10:34 PM
My goodness, now I KNOW I am having a hard time with my communication skills tonight.

Damage to the bannister, from the force of her body weight and the rope itself on the bannister. I am fairly certain, she did not get 4 blunt force trauma wounds from the bannister. The rope was too long and they are on the TOP of her head.

moo, imho etc.

Oh......I am sorry. I am sure its me......not you. lol Where I am from when the word "bannister" is used it is the railing part for an inside staircase. We call the top part of an outside balcony the 'railing."

Are you talking about the top part of the balcony and not the scrolled encase area enclosing the balcony? It is the scrolled area where I think she hit the top of her head on as she was passing it. I feel she arched her head back when she jumped off.

The rope didn't have anything to do with it. As she went over the top railing she was still in a free fall .........falling past the iron work. If her head was at an angle and tilted back she could have grazed the encased part with one side of her head. The hemorrhages she got were very minor.

arielilane
09-09-2011, 10:46 PM
I have been following this case from the beginning because of the bazaar circumstances surrounding it. I have been reading many of the posts since the beginning, and this is my first post.

In my opinion, I don't think that it is odd that RZ went shopping on the way to the airport to drop of the younger sister/ pick up AS. She was having an out of town guest who, considering the circumstances for his arrival, probably wouldn't have the time to go on his own to get essentials like O.J. or milk. On top of that, she was dropping off her younger sister, who is only 13 years old and just experianced a very traumatic event. Maybe she wanted to find something to calm this little girl down. In my experiance, when you have the responsibility for the care of a child, even if she is 13...that child's well being comes ahead of your own needs, even in times of hardship. You put that child's needs ahead of your own emotional needs because that is just the right thing to do. In my open, this does not show that RZ had mental problems....it might show that she had ALOT on her plate at that time, and in my opinion even show her strength in a time of tragedy. Seems to me that between the statements thru the media about her taking food and change of clothes up to the hospital, drop off's and pick ups at the airport, and taking care of boarding the dog, that she was the one that was trying to take care of the little details so that no one else had to worry or focus on anything other than MS. This, to me, shows a strength of character not "mental issues". Welcome to WS, Brit! My sentiments, too. I believe that a lot of this was RZ's life on a typical day and not just with regard to Max's accident. Shop, take kids here and there, fix dinner, pick up this, clean this, and drop this off, etc...

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 10:46 PM
Oh......I am sorry. I am sure its me......not you. lol Where I am from when the word "bannister" is used it is the railing part for an inside staircase. We call the top part of an outside balcony the 'railing."

Are you talking about the top part of the balcony and not the scrolled encase area enclosing the balcony? It is the scrolled area where I think she hit the top of her head on as she was passing it. I feel she arched her head back when she jumped off.

The rope didn't have anything to do with it. As she went over the top railing she was still in a free fall .........falling past the iron work. If her head was at an angle and tilted back she could have grazed the encased part with one side of her head. The hemorrhages she got were very minor.

Yeppers, the top part of the railing/bannister. That is the part that I think should have been indented by the force of the rope and her body weight. 600#'s of force is a lot!

If she went off either head first, her head if arched would have been away from the scroll work, and if she went off hip first, her head would have gone over further out, whether she arched her head or not, I think.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 10:46 PM
I don't remember reading or seeing one thing that the family of RZ ever stated whatsoever that jonah's wealth bought off anyone. I would love to see the links if you have found anything different. I haven't even seen Bremner say anything directly about the JS family.

I have seen Anne say it and she represents the Z family.

Shacknai attorney warns Zahau family attorney to 'cease and desist'

From Jonah Shacknai's attorney:

Dear Ms. Bremner,

I am an attorney for Jonah Shacknai, retained by him to address false public statements you have made, which have the effect of severely damaging Mr. Shacknai's personal and business reputations. Over the past several days, you have made a series of inaccurate and utterly unsupported statements about the facts surrounding the tragic deaths of Max Shacknai and Rebecca Zahau. However, what is most concerning are recent false public statements you have made that Mr. Shacknai, because of his business success, has somehow improperly influenced the investigations and conclusions of four different, and, independent California law enforcement agencies. You have further made public comments that these agencies have applied a different standard in conducting their investigations because of Mr. Shacknai's wealth. You have absolutely no facts to support these false and irresponsible statements, and you are fully aware that such facts do not exist. Please know that your false public statements constitute defamation, per se, and under law, entitle Mr. Shacknai to recover from you, and your law firm, substantial damages.

Much more at link.............

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney

Dr. Know?
09-09-2011, 10:49 PM
The "She saved him, can you save her" or whatever that was written on the door of the bedroom could it mean, Rebecca saved JS, now can he save her. I'm sure that's already been posted, just catching up.

If RN flipped herself over the railing, she would be going in a forward motion like a foward roll in gym class. Her back wouldn't be arched I don't think in that few seconds of time.

If she stood on the railing of the balcony, did she drop staight down and arch her back?

I still can't buy this suicide. I'm open minded though but not convinced by any means yet.

SophieRose
09-09-2011, 10:49 PM
I tend to agree. Rebecca's statement was that Max was told not to ride the Razor scooter in the 2nd floor hallway. If he were riding the scooter and went down the top step and then hit the railing, with the added height of the scooter he may have been propelled up and over with enough force to reach the chandelier and the opposite railing.

In the context of the scooter resting on his shin when he was found, he would have needed to cling to the scooter long enough for it to go over as well in order for it to land on top of him. In that scenario he may have made it to the chandelier, but likely not to the opposite railing.

Did LE think that the scooter was a the bottom of the stairs in the alcove and it tipped on top of him and the end of the fall?
Yes, I think that LE thought it was already in the alcove and then tipped on him after the fall. Also if it had gone with him over the railing, I think there would have been evidence of it on the railing. Years and years ago I was riding my bicycle down a trail, didn't see that there was something at the end of it until too late. I was thrown when I hit it but my bicycle did not go over it even with all that speed. I just can't see the scooter having gone over with Max.

But Rebecca said she last saw it on the second floor the day before, so Max must have been very busy in those 10-20 minutes and gone upstairs and brought it downstairs.

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 10:49 PM
I feel she arched her head back when she jumped off.

The rope didn't have anything to do with it. As she went over the top railing she was still in a free fall .........falling past the iron work. If her head was at an angle and tilted back she could have grazed the encased part with one side of her head. The hemorrhages she got were very minor.

-Respectfully snipped- BBM
But, the the hemorrhages were on the TOP of her head, not the side. I don't see how she could possibly have hit the top of her head how they described her "fall".

belimom
09-09-2011, 10:50 PM
BBM

Yes, they do. They think Jonah's wealth has bought off four completely different police agencies.

Everyone involved would have to be in on the cover up. Didn't happen imo.

Because of those accusations among other things said by Bremner and the Z family is why JSs attorney found it necessary to write the letter to Anne.

IMO

As someone else said, I don't think there was an actual buy off but more of the intimidation of the wealth and knowing that he could afford the very best lawyers. I really don't believe that there is/was a cover up so much as turning the other way and just taking the easy way out, versus looking at it from all angles.

That is JMHO. I do agree that bonafide cover ups are very rare in LE due to the number of folks who would have to keep quiet. But I think if a case could really go either way - suicide or murder - depending on the evidence and if investigating the case further is left up to someone in charge and they say, "I'm going with suicide. Case closed.", then - that's it. Case closed.

I have no experience personally with LE but that's just my very humble layman's view.

ehough22
09-09-2011, 10:52 PM
I haven't seen the statements from Bremner, but the statement above goes along with what I said before- there's a difference between buying off LE and a person's wealth influencing the investigation. It appears even his attorney refers to the latter while WSers were referring to the former. Again, not saying that I personally feel that's the case (that his wealth influenced anyone) but I can see where people would look into that. It's a logical question when dealing with a bizarre case involving a millionaire CEO who owns a mansion.

Brit
09-09-2011, 10:54 PM
I have seen Anne say it and she represents the Z family.

Shacknai attorney warns Zahau family attorney to 'cease and desist'

From Jonah Shacknai's attorney:

Dear Ms. Bremner,

I am an attorney for Jonah Shacknai, retained by him to address false public statements you have made, which have the effect of severely damaging Mr. Shacknai's personal and business reputations. Over the past several days, you have made a series of inaccurate and utterly unsupported statements about the facts surrounding the tragic deaths of Max Shacknai and Rebecca Zahau. However, what is most concerning are recent false public statements you have made that Mr. Shacknai, because of his business success, has somehow improperly influenced the investigations and conclusions of four different, and, independent California law enforcement agencies. You have further made public comments that these agencies have applied a different standard in conducting their investigations because of Mr. Shacknai's wealth. You have absolutely no facts to support these false and irresponsible statements, and you are fully aware that such facts do not exist. Please know that your false public statements constitute defamation, per se, and under law, entitle Mr. Shacknai to recover from you, and your law firm, substantial damages.

Much more at link.............

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney


I have read the statement from his attorney, but i still have not read or seen anything in print or in interviews that anyone in RZ's family suggested that the JS family had anything to do with it. What I have seen is the family and attorney state over and over that they just want the case reopened. I would love to see any links that you might have seen where they have suggested otherwise. Just because his attorney sent that email out, doesn't make it fact. This is what attorney's do, especially attorney's who have clients who own multi-billion dollar companies, who want to protect those interests.

Dr. Know?
09-09-2011, 10:54 PM
I think it's possible if she was forced to stand on the bannister/railing top of the wrought iron balcony, facing the courtyard and pushed, her back would arch that quickly and her head may hit the bottom of the balcony on the way down before the rope choked her.

arielilane
09-09-2011, 10:58 PM
Do we know the length of the balcony (or is it the width? The measurement from the doors to the railing). I have a possible theory on the head wounds but am not sure if it's possible, not knowing the measurements.

And welcome, starbright- I had a similar thought. The rope tied around the bed is very very close to the ground; you'd think her hand would have smudged paint on the carpet there (assuming she painted before she tied, which I realize we don't know). It's just awfully convenient to me that there's paint on her body but not in the other usual places.

Also, regarding Jonah buying off LE- IMO, there's a difference between purposely and knowingly buying off LE, and being influential due to your wealth. I'm not saying that happened here but I can understand that point of view. Excellent post! Now that you know the measurement(s), could you detail your theory? I would love to hear your thoughts. TIA

I read that it is 27" from the door to the bannister, but LE said 3'. The other measurement came from sleuthers who used her foot prints as a guide for size. Thank you, Sunnie.

Brit
09-09-2011, 10:59 PM
http://drdrew.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/08/knotting-expert-talks-rebecca-zahau-case/?hpt=dr_bn2

A rope expert was on dr. drew last night, pretty interesting.

belimom
09-09-2011, 11:00 PM
I thought of some more to say about LE's role.

My brother is a prosecutor and recently talked about a case he had to back away from b/c he realized that it would be next to impossible to prosecute based on the evidence.

So let's look at this case. Hypothetical scenario: LE speaks with the DA and says here's the evidence - what do you think? DA says 'well it could go either way as it's hard to really tell. If we go for murder, who do you think did it? Any motive? Any weapon? Any evidence at the scene pointing to someone?' LE says, 'No real motive. No weapon. No suspect. No real evidence left behind'. So they discuss it some more and even though it's a bizarre scene for a suicide, they decide that under the circumstances, it would be easier to prove how RN could have committed suicide (thus the videos) and why (Max) rather than prove whodunnit and how in a murder scenario.

This is all just from the top of my head so I hope it makes sense...

I do not believe it was suicide but I do believe it would be a very hard case to investigate and to prosecute.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 11:01 PM
Yeppers, the top part of the railing/bannister. That is the part that I think should have been indented by the force of the rope and her body weight. 600#'s of force is a lot!

If she went off either head first, her head if arched would have been away from the scroll work, and if she went off hip first, her head would have gone over further out, whether she arched her head or not, I think.

I just love debating with you.............you make me think.:crazy:

Yes but those railings are made to support a lot of weight. It looks like at least three or four adults could walk out there and prop their full weight against the railings with no problem.

All I know is I feel the hemorrhages were done in the fall. Since no one saw her fall it is impossible to know what she may have hit on the way down. They weren't blunt force trauma by a perp imo. They were way too minor for that.

IMO

elfie
09-09-2011, 11:04 PM
Questions are great!! They help us all think!! I would think the rope should have been behind her, and her hair was under the noose and then wrapped three times with the blue t=shirt also!!!

May your force be strong, so we can solve this mystery!! :welcome:

Yes, I think that LE thought it was already in the alcove and then tipped on him after the fall. Also if it had gone with him over the railing, I think there would have been evidence of it on the railing. Years and years ago I was riding my bicycle down a trail, didn't see that there was something at the end of it until too late. I was thrown when I hit it but my bicycle did not go over it even with all that speed. I just can't see the scooter having gone over with Max.

But Rebecca said she last saw it on the second floor the day before, so Max must have been very busy in those 10-20 minutes and gone upstairs and brought it downstairs.

Thanks. I have a problem with the scooter going over too.

arielilane
09-09-2011, 11:05 PM
I have seen Anne say it and she represents the Z family.

Shacknai attorney warns Zahau family attorney to 'cease and desist'

From Jonah Shacknai's attorney:

Dear Ms. Bremner,

I am an attorney for Jonah Shacknai, retained by him to address false public statements you have made, which have the effect of severely damaging Mr. Shacknai's personal and business reputations. Over the past several days, you have made a series of inaccurate and utterly unsupported statements about the facts surrounding the tragic deaths of Max Shacknai and Rebecca Zahau. However, what is most concerning are recent false public statements you have made that Mr. Shacknai, because of his business success, has somehow improperly influenced the investigations and conclusions of four different, and, independent California law enforcement agencies. You have further made public comments that these agencies have applied a different standard in conducting their investigations because of Mr. Shacknai's wealth. You have absolutely no facts to support these false and irresponsible statements, and you are fully aware that such facts do not exist. Please know that your false public statements constitute defamation, per se, and under law, entitle Mr. Shacknai to recover from you, and your law firm, substantial damages.

Much more at link.............

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney Cease and desist... good grief, someone lost their life in your home, sir. jmo

katydid23
09-09-2011, 11:06 PM
I tend to agree. Rebecca's statement was that Max was told not to ride the Razor scooter in the 2nd floor hallway. If he were riding the scooter and went down the top step and then hit the railing, with the added height of the scooter he may have been propelled up and over with enough force to reach the chandelier and the opposite railing.

In the context of the scooter resting on his shin when he was found, he would have needed to cling to the scooter long enough for it to go over as well in order for it to land on top of him. In that scenario he may have made it to the chandelier, but likely not to the opposite railing.

Did LE think that the scooter was a the bottom of the stairs in the alcove and it tipped on top of him and the end of the fall?

I think that if the scooter went over the railing it would be kind of smashed up a little . I wonder if there were any crunches or dents in it.

It is hard to believe that the scooter would clear the riling though. Scooters are bottom heavy and Max would have had to hold on really tight and literally carry it over the top to clear it.

Why was the scooter even allowed on the 2nd floor if that is where it was?
That was a lapse in the adult's judgement to allow him to even have it upstairs at all. imoo

scorekeeper
09-09-2011, 11:06 PM
To all new members,

:loveyou: :fireworks: :greetings: :welcome: :wagon:

Happy posting!:loser:

score

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 11:06 PM
I have read the statement from his attorney, but i still have not read or seen anything in print or in interviews that anyone in RZ's family suggested that the JS family had anything to do with it. What I have seen is the family and attorney state over and over that they just want the case reopened. I would love to see any links that you might have seen where they have suggested otherwise. Just because his attorney sent that email out, doesn't make it fact. This is what attorney's do, especially attorney's who have clients who own multi-billion dollar companies, who want to protect those interests.

You would have to check the sites that have transcripts of the shows Bremner has been on. Yes, she has mentioned the things that the attorney said she did.

If the Z family doesnt agree with their lawyer's statements then they should advise her.

IMO

katydid23
09-09-2011, 11:07 PM
Cease and desist... good grief, someone lost their life in your home, sir. jmo

That is kind of unfair to attack JS for the legal language chosen by his attorney. imoo

Quester
09-09-2011, 11:07 PM
9/8 ‘Batmanning’ Replacing ‘Planking’ As New Internet Trend

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/batmanning.jpg?w=300

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/09/08/batmanning-replacing-planking-as-new-internet-trend/

belimom
09-09-2011, 11:09 PM
I just love debating with you.............you make me think.:crazy:

Yes but those railings are made to support a lot of weight. It looks like at least three or four adults could walk out there and prop their full weight against the railings with no problem.

All I know is I feel the hemorrhages were done in the fall. Since no one saw her fall it is impossible to know what she may have hit on the way down. They weren't blunt force trauma by a perp imo. They were way too minor for that.

IMO

bbm

So who's gonna do experiment and bungee off a balcony and see what they hit? :crazy:

j/k...

ehough22
09-09-2011, 11:09 PM
Excellent post! Now that you know the measurement(s), could you detail your theory? I would love to hear your thoughts. TIA


Sure- I don't think it's anything mind blowing, but I just wanted to make sure it was possible before I threw it out there. Assuming it's the maximum of 3 feet, that's really not that wide even considering, if there was a second person, they likely would have been unable to step foot on the balcony (by "unable" I mean there are no footprints of them). I did a very quick, not at all technical test of this and it would seemingly be possible to plant Rebecca where her footprints are shown and then tip her over the balcony. But she's unconscious or already dead. It's a lot of weight. Perhaps whomever was pushing her over first hit her head smack on either the top railing or the ironwork below it in their struggle to get 100 lbs over the railing without stepping on the balcony. It seems very possible to me that whomever tipped her over there hit her head smack on that railing (maybe trying to get that toe print, or maybe it was just a difficult task). I'm not saying it had to be hard hit because I realize they weren't major injuries, but considering I believe someone pushed her over that balcony, and there were injuries specifically to the top of her head, I can see how said someone could have hit her head on the railing due to the awkwardness of their task.

Brit
09-09-2011, 11:20 PM
I still can't figure out why the two knives? One is much bigger than the other, but both look sharp enough to get the job done. Is it possible that one could have been used to threaten???

arielilane
09-09-2011, 11:21 PM
That is kind of unfair to attack JS for the legal language chosen by his attorney. imoo No attack -jmo

scorekeeper
09-09-2011, 11:21 PM
I thought of some more to say about LE's role.

My brother is a prosecutor and recently talked about a case he had to back away from b/c he realized that it would be next to impossible to prosecute based on the evidence.

So let's look at this case. Hypothetical scenario: LE speaks with the DA and says here's the evidence - what do you think? DA says 'well it could go either way as it's hard to really tell. If we go for murder, who do you think did it? Any motive? Any weapon? Any evidence at the scene pointing to someone?' LE says, 'No real motive. No weapon. No suspect. No real evidence left behind'. So they discuss it some more and even though it's a bizarre scene for a suicide, they decide that under the circumstances, it would be easier to prove how RN could have committed suicide (thus the videos) and why (Max) rather than prove whodunnit and how in a murder scenario.

This is all just from the top of my head so I hope it makes sense...

I do not believe it was suicide but I do believe it would be a very hard case to investigate and to prosecute.

If so, why not make her manner of death as undetermined? I think that is where they screwed up. Now they have to really back pedal if they want to re-open the case. But no, they took the easy way out. They made it seem like an open and shut case. I really think that they thought everyone would accept their explanations (or lack thereof) as JS did. I think his wealth and status may have influenced the investigation. There are way to many unanswered questions. Yes, I agree with your "prosecutor/LE" conversation but I would think they would start looking (from the get-go) at RN's death as a homicide and then work back from there....it looks like they went with suicide and built their case from there........

Yoda
09-09-2011, 11:23 PM
Can someone tell me how to find a moderator to pm to see if posting something is okay? Thank you in advance!

Brit
09-09-2011, 11:24 PM
http://celebritydaily.net/tv/photo-neil-nalepa-rebecca-zahaus-ex-husband/

Another interesting article with an interview with RZ's ex.

arielilane
09-09-2011, 11:25 PM
I just love debating with you.............you make me think.:crazy:

Yes but those railings are made to support a lot of weight. It looks like at least three or four adults could walk out there and prop their full weight against the railings with no problem.

All I know is I feel the hemorrhages were done in the fall. Since no one saw her fall it is impossible to know what she may have hit on the way down. They weren't blunt force trauma by a perp imo. They were way too minor for that.

IMO The railing my not have been up to code.

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 11:25 PM
That is kind of unfair to attack JS for the legal language chosen by his attorney. imoo

While I fully understand the pain of the Z family it is reckless to have an attorney say things they have not supported with facts. Anne should have known this man would not rollover and take this.

Bremner has interjected JS two other children into this case .....yet has not produced one bit of evidence they were there when Max fell. LE plainly stated that when the EMTs arrived minutes after Max fell no one was there but Rebecca and her sister.

She has also said he was planking.......yet that too has not been backed up with evidence.

So I am not surprised that JS finally has enough of this nightly speculation. Either Ms Bremner has got to back up her claims or she can find herself in a court of law as the defendant.

A lawyer of this caliber doesn't just put out letters like this just to see himself write something. Imo, his office has acquired all copies of interviews that has been done by Bremner. Imo, he means exactly what he said.

He plainly said in his letter that the Z family has every right to question the determination that LE came to..

Now the sister is putting out that Max really wanted to be around Rebecca more than his mother. Is that an appropriate thing to say when a mother has lost her only son?

The police Lt. on the case said that if any new evidence came to light they would be glad to reopen the case.

IMO

belimom
09-09-2011, 11:26 PM
If so, why not make her manner of death as undetermined? I think that is where they screwed up. Now they have to really back pedal if they want to re-open the case. But no, they took the easy way out. They made it seem like an open and shut case. I really think that they thought everyone would accept their explanations (or lack thereof) as JS did. I think his wealth and status may have influenced the investigation. There are way to many unanswered questions. Yes, I agree with your "prosecutor/LE" conversation but I would think they would start looking (from the get-go) at RN's death as a homicide and then work back from there....it looks like they went with suicide and built their case from there........

Those are some interesting questions. I guess, if it were me, I would rather say 'I thought it was a suicide but based on new evidence (cell phone pings? new witness? DNA?), I'm reopening the case as a homicide', rather than say 'Yeah, well, I thought it was a homicide but since I didn't find anything significant, I think I'll say suicide now'. See - I think it's easier to go from suicide to homicide than vice versa. :waitasec:

belimom
09-09-2011, 11:27 PM
Can someone tell me how to find a moderator to pm to see if posting something is okay? Thank you in advance!

The quickest way is to hit the triangular alert button at the top of a post...

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 11:29 PM
The railing my not have been up to code.

I would think it would have to be and was inspected in 2007 when the home was bought. I dont think anyone would pay millions for a mansion that wasnt up to code in all ways.

IMO

scorekeeper
09-09-2011, 11:31 PM
Those are some interesting questions. I guess, if it were me, I would rather say 'I thought it was a suicide but based on new evidence (cell phone pings? new witness? DNA?), I'm reopening the case as a homicide', rather than say 'Yeah, well, I thought it was a homicide but since I didn't find anything significant, I think I'll say suicide now'. See - I think it's easier to go from suicide to homicide than vice versa. :waitasec:

thanks, beli, makes sense.....my mind is not working right tonight
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::seeya:

oceanblueeyes
09-09-2011, 11:32 PM
-Respectfully snipped- BBM
But, the the hemorrhages were on the TOP of her head, not the side. I don't see how she could possibly have hit the top of her head how they described her "fall".

I believe the ME said she went over in an angular position. So her body and head was tilted.

IMO

belimom
09-09-2011, 11:33 PM
I would think it would have to be and was inspected in 2007 when the home was bought. I dont think anyone would pay millions for a mansion that wasnt up to code in all ways.

IMO

I don't think it has to be up to code, unless you do some work in an area that is not to code - such as if they were replacing the rails or replacing the balcony floor, etc. In order for the city/county inspector to sign off on the completed work, everything would have to be to code.

I could be wrong but that's been our experience, when we owned a 100-year-old home with all kinds of things not to code.

elfie
09-09-2011, 11:35 PM
-Respectfully snipped- BBM
But, the the hemorrhages were on the TOP of her head, not the side. I don't see how she could possibly have hit the top of her head how they described her "fall".

I think that if the scooter went over the railing it would be kind of smashed up a little . I wonder if there were any crunches or dents in it.

It is hard to believe that the scooter would clear the riling though. Scooters are bottom heavy and Max would have had to hold on really tight and literally carry it over the top to clear it.

Why was the scooter even allowed on the 2nd floor if that is where it was?
That was a lapse in the adult's judgement to allow him to even have it upstairs at all. imoo

And the force that it would have taken to get the scooter over with it at a dead stop at the banister would be great.
If the bar attaching the handle bar acted as a pivot or lever on the banister and he was literally clinging to it...
I'm not convinced either.

elfie
09-09-2011, 11:37 PM
Why am I getting a double quote when replying to a post? I've seen this asked before on other threads, but don't remember the answer. TIA.

arielilane
09-09-2011, 11:41 PM
I definitely agree that JS is not a man that would rollover and take this. However, this was his gf of two years. You would think that a joint agreement would be reached. Why not suffice RZ's family and answer their questions?

doubt
09-09-2011, 11:41 PM
I know she is not 'meaning' to say she was uncaring or callous. But that is what is sounds like to me. Tuesday morning, hours after she is leaning over the dying child in the entry way, and she is able to take her little sister on a shopping trip on the way to the airport? Sorry, but that does not sound that great to me. That little boy died violently on her watch, and he was supposedly super close to her, 'even closer than to his own mom' according to the sisters. And yet she can muster up the strength to shop?

I feel the same way about the attorney's statement that she had no guilt about the incident, even though in her next breath Bremner is saying it was a planking accident. If that little boy died while he was trying to plank from the upstairs balcony then RN should have had a lot of guilty feelings. imoo

I do not think the sisters are doing their deceased sister any favors by doing some of these interviews. Pointing out how 'jealous' DS was of Max's love for Rebeccah was a low blow given these tragic circumstances.

wow. i saw the interview with the sister. she never said RN went on a shopping spree at an upscale mall and tried on a bunch of high-end clothing for god's sake. she said that RN took her younger sister (a minor) shopping before going to the airport. maybe they went to the pharmacy to pick up magazines for the younger one to read. maybe she needed some tylenol. point being.......RN HAD to carry on with the necessities of life, and part of it required taking care of another minor in her care at the time.

why continue to cast negative light on a dead woman at every possible turn, without ever considering what are obvious alternate explanations. it makes zero sense and it's unfair to her, and her family, should they read this.

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 11:41 PM
I just love debating with you.............you make me think.:crazy:

Yes but those railings are made to support a lot of weight. It looks like at least three or four adults could walk out there and prop their full weight against the railings with no problem.

All I know is I feel the hemorrhages were done in the fall. Since no one saw her fall it is impossible to know what she may have hit on the way down. They weren't blunt force trauma by a perp imo. They were way too minor for that.

IMO

1) We don't know if anyone saw the fall. It depends what you believe happened.
2) The only way I can see that happening is if she were pushed and made to hit something. Remember bungee jumpers? They don't hit the bridge.
3) An expert on ropes and hangings that was on Dr. Drew stated there should have been damage.

Most importantly, I like debating with someone who is intelligent and articulate also!!

Sure- I don't think it's anything mind blowing, but I just wanted to make sure it was possible before I threw it out there. Assuming it's the maximum of 3 feet, that's really not that wide even considering, if there was a second person, they likely would have been unable to step foot on the balcony (by "unable" I mean there are no footprints of them). I did a very quick, not at all technical test of this and it would seemingly be possible to plant Rebecca where her footprints are shown and then tip her over the balcony. But she's unconscious or already dead. It's a lot of weight. Perhaps whomever was pushing her over first hit her head smack on either the top railing or the ironwork below it in their struggle to get 100 lbs over the railing without stepping on the balcony. It seems very possible to me that whomever tipped her over there hit her head smack on that railing (maybe trying to get that toe print, or maybe it was just a difficult task). I'm not saying it had to be hard hit because I realize they weren't major injuries, but considering I believe someone pushed her over that balcony, and there were injuries specifically to the top of her head, I can see how said someone could have hit her head on the railing due to the awkwardness of their task.

Bingo!!:woohoo: That's my point exactly. I don't see any way you could get those injuries throwing yourself off the railing/balcony/bannister, phew, but could easily see it happening if someone else was involved.


I would think it would have to be and was inspected in 2007 when the home was bought. I dont think anyone would pay millions for a mansion that wasnt up to code in all ways.

IMO

From what I understand, homes built at the time this one was, often had balconies that were shorter. Just as the discussion went on the stairwell bannister, where it met the landing. Someone said this may have been shorter than average. I have no clue either way personally, but sounds logical as it would correlate to the stairwell height.

And, I always wondered what that red triangle was up in the corner!!:crazy:

SunnieRN
09-09-2011, 11:50 PM
Why am I getting a double quote when replying to a post? I've seen this asked before on other threads, but don't remember the answer. TIA.

I wish I could help, but I've never seen that before. Sorry.:waitasec:

arielilane
09-09-2011, 11:51 PM
bbm

So who's gonna do experiment and bungee off a balcony and see what they hit? :crazy:

j/k... pass...

arielilane
09-09-2011, 11:53 PM
Sure- I don't think it's anything mind blowing, but I just wanted to make sure it was possible before I threw it out there. Assuming it's the maximum of 3 feet, that's really not that wide even considering, if there was a second person, they likely would have been unable to step foot on the balcony (by "unable" I mean there are no footprints of them). I did a very quick, not at all technical test of this and it would seemingly be possible to plant Rebecca where her footprints are shown and then tip her over the balcony. But she's unconscious or already dead. It's a lot of weight. Perhaps whomever was pushing her over first hit her head smack on either the top railing or the ironwork below it in their struggle to get 100 lbs over the railing without stepping on the balcony. It seems very possible to me that whomever tipped her over there hit her head smack on that railing (maybe trying to get that toe print, or maybe it was just a difficult task). I'm not saying it had to be hard hit because I realize they weren't major injuries, but considering I believe someone pushed her over that balcony, and there were injuries specifically to the top of her head, I can see how said someone could have hit her head on the railing due to the awkwardness of their task. I agree as well.

arielilane
09-09-2011, 11:55 PM
Still playing catch on my reading. Multi-tasking between reading past posts and posting went well. Good-night all.http://www.wuerziworld.de/Smilies/girl/gi87.gif

deanna82437
09-09-2011, 11:55 PM
bbm

So who's gonna do experiment and bungee off a balcony and see what they hit? :crazy:

j/k...

count me out ...

chasing.halos
09-10-2011, 12:00 AM
Why am I getting a double quote when replying to a post? I've seen this asked before on other threads, but don't remember the answer. TIA.

Elfie , I thinking clearing out your computer cache will take care of this problem.

belimom
09-10-2011, 12:01 AM
Why am I getting a double quote when replying to a post? I've seen this asked before on other threads, but don't remember the answer. TIA.

You are probably pressing the "+" button at the bottom of two or more posts, which marks it for quoting whenever you reply. That's how you quote multiple posts - hit the "+" button and on the ones you want to quote as you read along, then when you finally "reply", they will all appear. Hope this helps!

justice be served
09-10-2011, 12:02 AM
Being new at this I don't know the answer to this question. Does the Z family have access to the investigation details?

While I fully understand the pain of the Z family it is reckless to have an attorney say things they have not supported with facts. Anne should have known this man would not rollover and take this.

Bremner has interjected JS two other children into this case .....yet has not produced one bit of evidence they were there when Max fell. LE plainly stated that when the EMTs arrived minutes after Max fell no one was there but Rebecca and her sister.

She has also said he was planking.......yet that too has not been backed up with evidence.

So I am not surprised that JS finally has enough of this nightly speculation. Either Ms Bremner has got to back up her claims or she can find herself in a court of law as the defendant.

A lawyer of this caliber doesn't just put out letters like this just to see himself write something. Imo, his office has acquired all copies of interviews that has been done by Bremner. Imo, he means exactly what he said.

He plainly said in his letter that the Z family has every right to question the determination that LE came to..

Now the sister is putting out that Max really wanted to be around Rebecca more than his mother. Is that an appropriate thing to say when a mother has lost her only son?

The police Lt. on the case said that if any new evidence came to light they would be glad to reopen the case.

IMO

i.b.nora
09-10-2011, 12:03 AM
I would estimate the depth of the exterior balcony with the iron railing to be 25.26" deep.
I don't know how wide it is. I don't know how tall the railing is. We do know that the balcony is 11' from the ground.
I don't know if that helps anyone figure anything out.

Drj
09-10-2011, 12:05 AM
After reading Max's AR and/or ME report, I am perplexed by something. The AR describes Max as landing face first onto the ground. The AR/ME mentions that Rebecca began Rescue Breathing on Max, however, he would need to be on his back to do so...
If he landed face first (poor thing, so sad), she would have had to turn him over onto his back to perform Rescue Breathing/CPR. Yet if this transpired, how did the scooter end up on his shin (according to the report) when the EMT's arrived? Perhaps I did not comprehend the report...has this bothered anyone else?

deanna82437
09-10-2011, 12:06 AM
Being new at this I don't know the answer to this question. Does the Z family have access to the investigation details?

I don't know for sure, but I would think they should. But really who knows. It disturbs me a lot they were not even in the loop until a few days before the PC. Not a good thing IMO.

katydid23
09-10-2011, 12:06 AM
wow. i saw the interview with the sister. she never said RN went on a shopping spree at an upscale mall and tried on a bunch of high-end clothing for god's sake. she said that RN took her younger sister (a minor) shopping before going to the airport. maybe they went to the pharmacy to pick up magazines for the younger one to read. maybe she needed some tylenol. point being.......RN HAD to carry on with the necessities of life, and part of it required taking care of another minor in her care at the time.

why continue to cast negative light on a dead woman at every possible turn, without ever considering what are obvious alternate explanations. it makes zero sense and it's unfair to her, and her family, should they read this.

The way that her family has been speaking lately, I am not that worried if they read anything I have posted. I have no problem saying that I do not believe that Max's accident happened the way that RN said it did. That is just a feeling and a hunch that I have, given the evidence compared to her account. And the Z family attorney actually came out and verified my hunch recently themselves.

When I cast a 'negative' light, I am actually responding to the things they are saying when trying to cast a positive light. When they say how 'jealous' Max's mother was because he loved RN so much, and that she did not have any sense of guilt over the accident, and even told her family that. I am sorry, but I feel compelled to respond to those comments by the Z family.

I feel they DO cast RN in a negative light and they should stop talking in that manner. imoo And as long as they decide to do so, I am going to respond in kind. I am not being unfair, imo, I am being honest.

They are the ones using the shopping incident as an example to show she could not have felt suicidal. I do not think it means that at all. I think it means she was in denial about the situation and did not understand the enormity, yet.

Sure, maybe she just stopped to pick up magazines for the plane, but if so, why would they drag it out as some kind of evidence that she was 'fine.' They even said that she was able to speak to her parents just fine about other subjects, and she told them also the list of things she was doing for JS the next day. Again, she sounds to me like she was in denial about the intensity of looming situation.

Peaceful
09-10-2011, 12:06 AM
Check this out guys:

Death of Rebecca Zahau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 12:08 AM
Being new at this I don't know the answer to this question. Does the Z family have access to the investigation details?

From what I understand, they have not gotten any information. That may change now that they have a lawyer however.

jjenny
09-10-2011, 12:09 AM
I would estimate the depth of the exterior balcony with the iron railing to be 25.26" deep.
I don't know how wide it is. I don't know how tall the railing is. We do know that the balcony is 11' from the ground.
I don't know if that helps anyone figure anything out.

How do we know the balcony is 11' from the ground? Because the calculations we are provided with don't make sense in that case. Autopsy reports states the RN hanging was 9' 2" drop. That was measured from the railing to the ligature on her neck. Her height is 5'3". Her feet were estimated to be 2 feet from the ground. Adding 9'2" + 5'3" + 2'=16' 5". We can subtract the railing which is ~ 3' and the height of head and neck (not going to be more than 1'). So the balcony has to be ~12' 5" from the ground.

MyBelle
09-10-2011, 12:13 AM
If it was so strong why didn't she just tie a rope to the railing? Why would she need to anchor it to the bed?

If only any of us had those answers.

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 12:14 AM
After reading Max's AR and/or ME report, I am perplexed by something. The AR describes Max as landing face first onto the ground. The AR/ME mentions that Rebecca began Rescue Breathing on Max, however, he would need to be on his back to do so...
If he landed face first (poor thing, so sad), she would have had to turn him over onto his back to perform Rescue Breathing/CPR. Yet if this transpired, how did the scooter end up on his shin (according to the report) when the EMT's arrived? Perhaps I did not comprehend the report...has this bothered anyone else?

Yes it has been a topic of discussion, without resolution unfortunately.

:welcome: to websleuths and thank you for a wonderful 1st post!!

justice be served
09-10-2011, 12:14 AM
I don't know for sure, but I would think they should. But really who knows. It disturbs me a lot they were not even in the loop until a few days before the PC. Not a good thing IMO.

If the Z family does not have access to the investigation details, then how would the family be able to back up the claims made by their attorney? Seems to me they would be at a major disadvantage then and they are really in a bad place and I feel for them. Even if the attorney is working pro Bono, one person cannot accomplish what 15 assigned detectives can do nor what JS's cadre of professionals can do. P

katydid23
09-10-2011, 12:20 AM
If the Z family does not have access to the investigation details, then how would the family be able to back up the claims made by their attorney? Seems to me they would be at a major disadvantage then and they are really in a bad place and I feel for them. Even if the attorney is working pro Bono, one person cannot accomplish what 15 assigned detectives can do nor what JS's cadre of professionals can do. P

The attorney said that LE never compared RN's feet to the prints on the balcony. How could she know if they did or did not do that?

She said LE never took JS's prints for comparison on the scene. Again, how would she know if they had access to his prints or not?

deanna82437
09-10-2011, 12:21 AM
If the Z family does not have access to the investigation details, then how would the family be able to back up the claims made by their attorney? Seems to me they would be at a major disadvantage then and they are really in a bad place and I feel for them. Even if the attorney is working pro Bono, one person cannot accomplish what 15 assigned detectives can do nor what JS's cadre of professionals can do. P

I do not see how they can legally keep any and all available investigative reports from them or their attorney. I hope they don't try to.

MyBelle
09-10-2011, 12:22 AM
If so, why not make her manner of death as undetermined? I think that is where they screwed up. Now they have to really back pedal if they want to re-open the case. But no, they took the easy way out. They made it seem like an open and shut case. I really think that they thought everyone would accept their explanations (or lack thereof) as JS did. I think his wealth and status may have influenced the investigation. There are way to many unanswered questions. Yes, I agree with your "prosecutor/LE" conversation but I would think they would start looking (from the get-go) at RN's death as a homicide and then work back from there....it looks like they went with suicide and built their case from there........

I doubt at this point they'll go back and change it to undetermined because that really doesn't accomplish anything but I'm betting they will reopen the case if there's new evidence that points to homicide.

I don't believe JS wealth has influenced the investigation in any way. That implies he's a criminal and so are all the LE. It's an implication his attorney says is not true.

JMO

elfie
09-10-2011, 12:23 AM
How do we know the balcony is 11' from the ground? Because the calculations we are provided with don't make sense in that case. Autopsy reports states the RN hanging was 9' 2" drop. That was measured from the railing to the ligature on her neck. Her height is 5'3". Her feet were estimated to be 2 feet from the ground. Adding 9'2" + 5'3" + 2'=16' 5". We can subtract the railing which is ~ 3'. So the balcony has to be ~13' 5" from the ground.

Then measure from the ligature to her feet for height. :(

It looks to be between 11' & 13' from photos.

jjenny
09-10-2011, 12:26 AM
Then measure from the ligature to her feet for height. :(

It looks to be between 11' & 13' from photos.

I realize the length of her her head and neck has to be subtracted as well, but that's not going to be more than 1 foot. The balcony being 11 ft from the ground doesn't fit the numbers we were given, so where is that number coming from? If the 11 feet number was accurate her feet would be much closer to the ground.

deanna82437
09-10-2011, 12:28 AM
The attorney said that LE never compared RN's feet to the prints on the balcony. How could she know if they did or did not do that?

She said LE never took JS's prints for comparison on the scene. Again, how would she know if they had access to his prints or not?

What does that have to do with the statement you replied to?

justice be served
09-10-2011, 12:36 AM
From what I understand, they have not gotten any information. That may change now that they have a lawyer however.

If the Z family has been completely in the dark which I am getting that feeling, then it explains partially the superlatives the family is using to attempt to garner some attention in their quest for Rebecca. I doubt their frame of mind is normal, they're not experienced with the press and they have probably cringed themselves how they came across. I know I wouldn't be the smoothest in conveying my feelings under the circumstances.

MyBelle
09-10-2011, 12:36 AM
I definitely agree that JS is not a man that would rollover and take this. However, this was his gf of two years. You would think that a joint agreement would be reached. Why not suffice RZ's family and answer their questions?

Because their attorney would be asking the questions and his attorney has sent her a cease and desist letter about comments she's made that he considers defamatory. No way would JS attorney give her the time of day at this point.

JMO

i.b.nora
09-10-2011, 12:43 AM
Well, I got the 11'0" from the ground to the 'floor' of the balcony from the elevation drawings that were submitted by Shacknai's architect to the Preservation group and to the city. It says, 11'0" ground to second floor (balcony appears to be level with second floor). Someone, I don't remember who, provided a link to the PDF.

Isn't the autopsy the one where the guy goes magically from the guesthouse with its two bedrooms that have noting to do with anything to the bedroom (in the main house) with the ropes and stuff? I rest my case.

justice be served
09-10-2011, 12:46 AM
Because their attorney would be asking the questions and his attorney has sent her a cease and desist letter about comments she's made that he considers defamatory. No way would JS attorney give her the time of day at this point.

JMO

Well whomever is giving JS advice on public perception is doing a piss poor job. Perhaps I'll give him advice because he couldn't look worse. His high powered advisors should all be fired.

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 12:47 AM
Well, I got the 11'0" from the ground to the 'floor' of the balcony from the elevation drawings that were submitted by Shacknai's architect to the Preservation group and to the city. It says, 11'0" ground to second floor (balcony appears to be level with second floor). Someone, I don't remember who, provided a link to the PDF.

Isn't the autopsy the one where the guy goes magically from the guesthouse with its two bedrooms that have noting to do with anything to the bedroom (in the main house) with the ropes and stuff? I rest my case.

You've got a good point there!! :floorlaugh:

MyBelle
09-10-2011, 12:47 AM
After reading Max's AR and/or ME report, I am perplexed by something. The AR describes Max as landing face first onto the ground. The AR/ME mentions that Rebecca began Rescue Breathing on Max, however, he would need to be on his back to do so...
If he landed face first (poor thing, so sad), she would have had to turn him over onto his back to perform Rescue Breathing/CPR. Yet if this transpired, how did the scooter end up on his shin (according to the report) when the EMT's arrived? Perhaps I did not comprehend the report...has this bothered anyone else?

Good question. It's bothered several of us. I'm beginning to wonder if the ME put all that info out there so that it would raise questions about whether Max's fall really was an accident.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 12:48 AM
Well whomever is giving JS advice on public perception is doing a piss poor job. Perhaps I'll give him advice because he couldn't look worse. His high powered advisors should all be fired.

I guess it's true. Money can't buy everything. ;-)

Peaceful
09-10-2011, 12:49 AM
As someone else said, I don't think there was an actual buy off but more of the intimidation of the wealth and knowing that he could afford the very best lawyers. I really don't believe that there is/was a cover up so much as turning the other way and just taking the easy way out, versus looking at it from all angles.

That is JMHO. I do agree that bonafide cover ups are very rare in LE due to the number of folks who would have to keep quiet. But I think if a case could really go either way - suicide or murder - depending on the evidence and if investigating the case further is left up to someone in charge and they say, "I'm going with suicide. Case closed.", then - that's it. Case closed.

I have no experience personally with LE but that's just my very humble layman's view.

What a great explanation and this scenario makes the most sense to me! Wonderfully written. :rocker:

justice be served
09-10-2011, 12:49 AM
Good question. It's bothered several of us. I'm beginning to wonder if the ME put all that info out there so that it would raise questions about whether Max's fall really was an accident.

JMO

So are you suggesting that their report is not on the up and up?

Peaceful
09-10-2011, 12:53 AM
I have read the statement from his attorney, but i still have not read or seen anything in print or in interviews that anyone in RZ's family suggested that the JS family had anything to do with it. What I have seen is the family and attorney state over and over that they just want the case reopened. I would love to see any links that you might have seen where they have suggested otherwise. Just because his attorney sent that email out, doesn't make it fact. This is what attorney's do, especially attorney's who have clients who own multi-billion dollar companies, who want to protect those interests.

Excellent point! I have been thinking about this as well and revisiting the articles featuring her and all I can find from attorney Bremner are lists of questions the family has that we would all like answered. Take a chill pill JS!

Peaceful
09-10-2011, 12:55 AM
I think it's possible if she was forced to stand on the bannister/railing top of the wrought iron balcony, facing the courtyard and pushed, her back would arch that quickly and her head may hit the bottom of the balcony on the way down before the rope choked her.

I agree it is a possible explanation for a head injury but the four separate head injuries don't seem so easily explainable to me.

katydid23
09-10-2011, 12:57 AM
What does that have to do with the statement you replied to?

"If the Z family does not have access to the investigation details, then how would the family be able to back up the claims made by their attorney?"

Umm...here is the first statement in the quote I responded to. And I stated two claims made by the attorney that she would need to back up. Sorry if that was not clear.

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 12:58 AM
So are you suggesting that their report is not on the up and up?

Maybe they should just re-open both investigations. It seems as if there are a lot of questions concerning both deaths.

jjenny
09-10-2011, 12:59 AM
Maybe they should just re-open both investigations. It seems as if there are a lot of questions concerning both deaths.

Both cases are iron clad, don't you know?

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 01:01 AM
Both cases are iron clad, don't you know?

:floorlaugh:Thanks, I needed that!

elfie
09-10-2011, 01:02 AM
I realize the length of her her head and neck has to be subtracted as well, but that's not going to be more than 1 foot. The balcony being 11 ft from the ground doesn't fit the numbers we were given, so where is that number coming from? If the 11 feet number was accurate her feet would be much closer to the ground.

Using this photo:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rzbalcony.jpg

and calculating the height of the table to be approximately 29" (with a couple inches or less missing from the photo) it looks to be at least 12' from the ground (less if the table is shorter and more if the table is taller).

(I think you make a great point that the distance may not actually have been measured).

jjenny
09-10-2011, 01:02 AM
Good question. It's bothered several of us. I'm beginning to wonder if the ME put all that info out there so that it would raise questions about whether Max's fall really was an accident.

JMO

I think that's pretty much the opposite of what any ME would want to happen.

MyBelle
09-10-2011, 01:03 AM
Well whomever is giving JS advice on public perception is doing a piss poor job. Perhaps I'll give him advice because he couldn't look worse. His high powered advisors should all be fired.

I disagree. I think they are doing an their job of protecting his reputation. His attorney is very well-respected. Defamation, lies and innuendo used to influence public perception of a CEO are usually investigated vigorously by both the SEC and FBI.

JMO

Peaceful
09-10-2011, 01:11 AM
While I fully understand the pain of the Z family it is reckless to have an attorney say things they have not supported with facts. Anne should have known this man would not rollover and take this.

Bremner has interjected JS two other children into this case .....yet has not produced one bit of evidence they were there when Max fell. LE plainly stated that when the EMTs arrived minutes after Max fell no one was there but Rebecca and her sister.

She has also said he was planking.......yet that too has not been backed up with evidence.

So I am not surprised that JS finally has enough of this nightly speculation. Either Ms Bremner has got to back up her claims or she can find herself in a court of law as the defendant.

A lawyer of this caliber doesn't just put out letters like this just to see himself write something. Imo, his office has acquired all copies of interviews that has been done by Bremner. Imo, he means exactly what he said.

He plainly said in his letter that the Z family has every right to question the determination that LE came to..

Now the sister is putting out that Max really wanted to be around Rebecca more than his mother. Is that an appropriate thing to say when a mother has lost her only son?

The police Lt. on the case said that if any new evidence came to light they would be glad to reopen the case.

IMO

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I must have missed this interview you are referring to because I never heard her say any of this. Do you recall where you found this? I would like to read more. Thank you!

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 01:12 AM
I disagree. I think they are doing an their job of protecting his reputation. His attorney is very well-respected. Defamation, lies and innuendo used to influence public perception of a CEO are usually investigated vigorously by both the SEC and FBI.

JMO

Has he tried talking to the Zahou family? Has he explained what he knows or doesn't know? Why he feels the way he feels? Has he told them that he understands their loss?

imho, THAT would take away the need for an attorney and he WOULD be respected and could feel self respect.

I honestly don't see what in the heck is so bad about what is being said. It can easily be proven to be untrue, if it is, without threatening a lawsuit. This case is reminding me more and more every day of the JonBenet Ramsey case.

Momma was right. You can catch more bees with honey then you can with vinegar.

IWannaKnow
09-10-2011, 01:22 AM
I tend to agree. Rebecca's statement was that Max was told not to ride the Razor scooter in the 2nd floor hallway. If he were riding the scooter and went down the top step and then hit the railing, with the added height of the scooter he may have been propelled up and over with enough force to reach the chandelier and the opposite railing.

In the context of the scooter resting on his shin when he was found, he would have needed to cling to the scooter long enough for it to go over as well in order for it to land on top of him. In that scenario he may have made it to the chandelier, but likely not to the opposite railing.

Did LE think that the scooter was a the bottom of the stairs in the alcove and it tipped on top of him and the end of the fall?

I agree elfie. This is also how I see this happening. Perhaps the scooter is what took the chandelier down and not Max.

Thank you Quester for posting the hinky meter report re: handrail height and MS's ability (or not) to go over that railing.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

She effectively established that the handrail height is 32" or thereabouts. She also established that the step height is about 6 1/2". Perfect. Now, study this picture, which she linked to her report:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms03.jpg

Notice that the handrail on the second floor is the same height as the newel post. That establishes that the railing BEGINS at a height of 32". As the stairs go down, the handrail has to follow, which is why the handrail dips downward at the transition point behind the newel post by 6 1/2" - the height of the step. So immediately after the newel post on the second floor landing the handrail height is only 25.5" (approximately) from the second floor landing. The handrail is 32" on the second floor, 32" at the first stair, but only 25.5" from the second floor floor at the transitional dip you see in the handrail just behind the newel post. This is only a factor if you stand on the second floor and lean over the handrail at that exact point (and yes, it can be done). The Razor scooter would raise him up a few more inches even. I could see the post on the Razor working as a lever and the handrail as the pivot point, with MS's weight causing it to somersault over the railing with him. The scooter only weighs about 7 lbs.

http://www.target.com/p/Razor-Black-Label-Ultra-Pro-Lo-Kick-Scooter/-/A-13539774

So hinky meter established that Max's center of gravity would be at 28". Even without the scooter if he came off the second floor landing at exactly the wrong place, just after the newel post where the railing is only 25.5" in relation to the second floor, and he had any velocity behind him it shouldn't be that hard for him to do what the sheriff's office said. IMO. FWIW, they did talk about this in the briefing and stated that the railing was only 20 some odd inches at that point. I grew up in a house even older than this one and our stairs were similar. I was always conscious of that spot in the railing that wasn't really all that safe. Plus, we have redone the stairwell in our house and the discussion about handrails was eyeopening to me because of all the work we would have to do to work around the stair height. All of this is an attempt to say that the handrail is not 32" all the way down the stairwell. If he was against the railing on the second floor this couldn't have happened, if he were standing flat on the first stair facing the railing it couldn't have happened. He had to come off the second floor landing at an oblique angle to the stairs and gone over at that exact point with some velocity. IMO. Much like the descriptions.

Also if Ocean was what caused him to trip and fall he may have yelled the dog's name as he struck him and just before he went over the railing, and that could have been what Rebecca heard.

Rhyme & Reason
09-10-2011, 01:40 AM
I have been following this case from the beginning because of the bazaar circumstances surrounding it. I have been reading many of the posts since the beginning, and this is my first post.

In my opinion, I don't think that it is odd that RZ went shopping on the way to the airport to drop of the younger sister/ pick up AS. She was having an out of town guest who, considering the circumstances for his arrival, probably wouldn't have the time to go on his own to get essentials like O.J. or milk. On top of that, she was dropping off her younger sister, who is only 13 years old and just experianced a very traumatic event. Maybe she wanted to find something to calm this little girl down. In my experiance, when you have the responsibility for the care of a child, even if she is 13...that child's well being comes ahead of your own needs, even in times of hardship. You put that child's needs ahead of your own emotional needs because that is just the right thing to do. In my open, this does not show that RZ had mental problems....it might show that she had ALOT on her plate at that time, and in my opinion even show her strength in a time of tragedy. Seems to me that between the statements thru the media about her taking food and change of clothes up to the hospital, drop off's and pick ups at the airport, and taking care of boarding the dog, that she was the one that was trying to take care of the little details so that no one else had to worry or focus on anything other than MS. This, to me, shows a strength of character not "mental issues".

:goodpost:

sdcali
09-10-2011, 01:43 AM
Difficult to believe that an artist would attempt to use paint straight from the tube rather than using at minimum a plate or saucer (we use Styrofoam or plastic plates), or artistically, a palette.

Another mystery. She ties knots like a longshoreman, but in her own particular area of expertise she falls short.

bbm

I brought this up in an earlier thread. If you look at the photo (sheriff's website page) you can see the larger paintbrush has black paint globbed on it.

The odd placement of the paint splotches make no sense, the same with the paint on her body. How did it get on her back? Unless she was laid down on the floor and the paint transferred from the floor to her body?

Peaceful
09-10-2011, 01:45 AM
I disagree. I think they are doing an their job of protecting his reputation. His attorney is very well-respected. Defamation, lies and innuendo used to influence public perception of a CEO are usually investigated vigorously by both the SEC and FBI.

JMO

I respectfully disagree with you, MyBelle. I am sorry but no one has done a good job of making JS look good or innocent or concerned. I would love to see that side of him but it has not been displayed for whatever reason. IMO

Your note does sound scary though! Better watch your words WS! They (Sitrick) really are watching I am sure.

Drj
09-10-2011, 01:45 AM
Good point, and if the dog was excited and wedged/scooted between Max (the razor) and the railing... Seemingly, Max could have been sent airborne over the railing...IMO

elfie
09-10-2011, 01:47 AM
I agree elfie. This is also how I see this happening. Perhaps the scooter is what took the chandelier down and not Max.

Thank you Quester for posting the hinky meter report re: handrail height and MS's ability (or not) to go over that railing.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

She effectively established that the handrail height is 32" or thereabouts. She also established that the step height is about 6 1/2". Perfect. Now, study this picture, which she linked to her report:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms03.jpg

Notice that the handrail on the second floor is the same height as the newel post. That establishes that the railing BEGINS at a height of 32". As the stairs go down, the handrail has to follow, which is why the handrail dips downward at the transition point behind the newel post by 6 1/2" - the height of the step. So immediately after the newel post on the second floor landing the handrail height is only 25.5" (approximately) from the second floor landing. The handrail is 32" on the second floor, 32" at the first stair, but only 25.5" from the second floor floor at the transitional dip you see in the handrail just behind the newel post. This is only a factor if you stand on the second floor and lean over the handrail at that exact point (and yes, it can be done). The Razor scooter would raise him up a few more inches even. I could see the post on the Razor working as a lever and the handrail as the pivot point, with MS's weight causing it to somersault over the railing with him. The scooter only weighs about 7 lbs.

http://www.target.com/p/Razor-Black-Label-Ultra-Pro-Lo-Kick-Scooter/-/A-13539774

So hinky meter established that Max's center of gravity would be at 28". Even without the scooter if he came off the second floor landing at exactly the wrong place, just after the newel post where the railing is only 25.5" in relation to the second floor, and he had any velocity behind him it shouldn't be that hard for him to do what the sheriff's office said. IMO. FWIW, they did talk about this in the briefing and stated that the railing was only 20 some odd inches at that point. I grew up in a house even older than this one and our stairs were similar. I was always conscious of that spot in the railing that wasn't really all that safe. Plus, we have redone the stairwell in our house and the discussion about handrails was eyeopening to me because of all the work we would have to do to work around the stair height. All of this is an attempt to say that the handrail is not 32" all the way down the stairwell. If he was against the railing on the second floor this couldn't have happened, if he were standing flat on the first stair facing the railing it couldn't have happened. He had to come off the second floor landing at an oblique angle to the stairs and gone over at that exact point with some velocity. IMO. Much like the descriptions.

Also if Ocean was what caused him to trip and fall he may have yelled the dog's name as he struck him and just before he went over the railing, and that could have been what Rebecca heard.


Excellent description! I think your evaluation brings this scenario back into play. Instead of clinging to the handlebar, the force against the handlebar could possibly have been enough. Was it Archimedes who said, "Give me a long enough lever (and a fulcrum) & I will lift the world."?

I also have to thank Quester for bringing the Hinky Meter link over and Val for her insightful evaluation (as I should have previously).

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 01:53 AM
I agree elfie. This is also how I see this happening. Perhaps the scooter is what took the chandelier down and not Max.

Thank you Quester for posting the hinky meter report re: handrail height and MS's ability (or not) to go over that railing.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

She effectively established that the handrail height is 32" or thereabouts. She also established that the step height is about 6 1/2". Perfect. Now, study this picture, which she linked to her report:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms03.jpg

Notice that the handrail on the second floor is the same height as the newel post. That establishes that the railing BEGINS at a height of 32". As the stairs go down, the handrail has to follow, which is why the handrail dips downward at the transition point behind the newel post by 6 1/2" - the height of the step. So immediately after the newel post on the second floor landing the handrail height is only 25.5" (approximately) from the second floor landing. The handrail is 32" on the second floor, 32" at the first stair, but only 25.5" from the second floor floor at the transitional dip you see in the handrail just behind the newel post. This is only a factor if you stand on the second floor and lean over the handrail at that exact point (and yes, it can be done). The Razor scooter would raise him up a few more inches even. I could see the post on the Razor working as a lever and the handrail as the pivot point, with MS's weight causing it to somersault over the railing with him. The scooter only weighs about 7 lbs.

http://www.target.com/p/Razor-Black-Label-Ultra-Pro-Lo-Kick-Scooter/-/A-13539774

So hinky meter established that Max's center of gravity would be at 28". Even without the scooter if he came off the second floor landing at exactly the wrong place, just after the newel post where the railing is only 25.5" in relation to the second floor, and he had any velocity behind him it shouldn't be that hard for him to do what the sheriff's office said. IMO. FWIW, they did talk about this in the briefing and stated that the railing was only 20 some odd inches at that point. I grew up in a house even older than this one and our stairs were similar. I was always conscious of that spot in the railing that wasn't really all that safe. Plus, we have redone the stairwell in our house and the discussion about handrails was eyeopening to me because of all the work we would have to do to work around the stair height. All of this is an attempt to say that the handrail is not 32" all the way down the stairwell. If he was against the railing on the second floor this couldn't have happened, if he were standing flat on the first stair facing the railing it couldn't have happened. He had to come off the second floor landing at an oblique angle to the stairs and gone over at that exact point with some velocity. IMO. Much like the descriptions.

Also if Ocean was what caused him to trip and fall he may have yelled the dog's name as he struck him and just before he went over the railing, and that could have been what Rebecca heard.

Thank you IwannaKnow, I finally got it!!:seeya: Poor baby, I can't imagine the terror he must have felt! If the dog was involved, I would imagine he was trying to make sure that Ocean was ok.

I can't even read his autopsy all at once. It devastates me.

sdcali
09-10-2011, 01:55 AM
Gosh I will have to read the autopsy report again......I am missing things I guess.

I thought the ME said he thought she went over at an angular position..not a head dive. That means to me she rested one hip up on the railing and that is why only 11 inches? of dust was disturbed and then swung her legs and feet over and propelled off. If she did not push off far enough then one side on the top of her head could have grazed the scroll work which is not solid but open in areas. We do not know if she twisted from the force when she jumped off or she may have had her head arched way back when she jumped.

Tow ropes are flexible though. They aren't ridgid like a steel rod that has no play in it. The energy amassed and the force of her fall would make the rope swing like a pendulum. A thin rope cannot steady and control a hundred pound body where it will drop straight down and never swing imo. We also don't know if the rope may have been twisted when she repelled off. If so the body would spin until the rope was no longer twisted.


IMO

BBM

I remember LE saying at the PC that they surmised she bent over the railing and dove over (and that was the explanation for the toe prints sliding backwards on the balcony)

I will need to re-read the AR too.

Carpe Pacem
09-10-2011, 01:56 AM
"The hemorrhages she got were very minor."

Ocean, I thought I read that one of the forensic pathologists stated that they were enough to render her at least temporarily unconscious.

By the way, you are by far the very nicest, most gentle devil's advocate I've ever encountered.

Thanks for that!

sdcali
09-10-2011, 02:04 AM
I read that it is 27" from the door to the bannister, but LE said 3'. The other measurement came from sleuthers who used her foot prints as a guide for size.

Thanks for that info. I must have missed both of those, Sunnie. I tried to estimate the size of the brick tiles on the balcony (approx. 4" x 8") and add the tiles to come up with a total.

IWannaKnow
09-10-2011, 02:08 AM
Do we have any serious painters on the thread? I've been wondering exactly what kind of paint that is.....it is in a flip top tube. Is it acrylic? Is it even paint that a painter would use? I really don't know, and have been wondering. I thought oils came with screw caps. Stencil paint has flip tops, but not that shape bottle. I've tried to search photos to find a similar tube but no luck. Why isn't there a label on the bottle?

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 02:11 AM
One thing that surprised me is how small the guest room is. I thought it would be much wider than it was. It almost looked like an afterthought.

IWannaKnow
09-10-2011, 02:14 AM
Excellent description! I think your evaluation brings this scenario back into play. Instead of clinging to the handlebar, the force against the handlebar could possibly have been enough. Was it Archimedes who said, "Give me a long enough lever (and a fulcrum) & I will lift the world."?

I also have to thank Quester for bringing the Hinky Meter link over and Val for her insightful evaluation (as I should have previously).

Thanks elfie. I couldn't have done it without the work Val did. She did an excellent job.

The scooter as a lever would propel Max much further than simply falling over the railing in my humble opinion. And I would think that the combination of a 7 pound scooter and a 45 pound boy would be enough to take the chandelier down with them.

Even if it could be proven that Rebecca killed Max intentionally or through negligence, two wrongs don't make a right. That ain't how we roll on WS.

IWannaKnow
09-10-2011, 02:21 AM
One thing that surprised me is how small the guest room is. I thought it would be much wider than it was. It almost looked like an afterthought.

Yes, and IIRC that was a round table behind the door. Don't you think the overturned chair went with that table? How did it get across the room and on it's side? That didn't look suspicious to them? Was all the furniture in the house on it's side so that chair looked normal? :banghead:

FWIW, I don't have a single piece of furniture in my home on it's side. :innocent:

SunnieRN
09-10-2011, 02:24 AM
Yes, and IIRC that was a round table behind the door. Don't you think the overturned chair went with that table? How did it get across the room and on it's side? That didn't look suspicious to them? Was all the furniture in the house on it's side so that chair looked normal? :banghead:

FWIW, I don't have a single piece of furniture in my home on it's side. :innocent:

:floorlaugh: I know I haven't told you today how much I appreciate you, but I do!!!

IWannaKnow
09-10-2011, 02:26 AM
:floorlaugh: I know I haven't told you today how much I appreciate you, but I do!!!

:hug:

sdcali
09-10-2011, 02:27 AM
I agree it is a possible explanation for a head injury but the four separate head injuries don't seem so easily explainable to me.

If she were leaned over the railing and flipped over, could her head have hit the iron scrolling on the balcony with enough force to cause the bruising? I wonder if the bruises match up with any of the design of the scrolls?

sdcali
09-10-2011, 02:30 AM
After reading Max's AR and/or ME report, I am perplexed by something. The AR describes Max as landing face first onto the ground. The AR/ME mentions that Rebecca began Rescue Breathing on Max, however, he would need to be on his back to do so...
If he landed face first (poor thing, so sad), she would have had to turn him over onto his back to perform Rescue Breathing/CPR. Yet if this transpired, how did the scooter end up on his shin (according to the report) when the EMT's arrived? Perhaps I did not comprehend the report...has this bothered anyone else?

I have had problems with parts of both of the AR. One thing I thought about the scooter resting on his shin, was if when he landed, he hit the scooter in that area and it flipped part of it on top of him?

IWannaKnow
09-10-2011, 02:31 AM
If she were leaned over the railing and flipped over, could her head have hit the iron scrolling on the balcony with enough force to cause the bruising? I wonder if the bruises match up with any of the design of the scrolls?

That is an interesting question, 'cause I think that if she had such contact with that very distinctive pattern, that should have transfered over. The only things I saw over and over in the AR were "linear". I don't know about you, but I don't see much linear in that railing, nor the plants below.

sdcali
09-10-2011, 02:38 AM
whew...I have finally caught up (after the blackout delay here in San Diego, a long busy day at work and an evening out to relax) and now I am going to have to say goodnight.

I bet I will be playing catch up again tomorrow morning!

Welcome to the new posters! So much great new perspectives!

TTFN! :seeya: