View Full Version : The message on the door
elfie
09-11-2011, 01:39 PM
An cryptic message was painted on the door of the maid's quarters cum guest room for which we have two versions:
Per ME:
She saved him can you save her?
Per Rebecca's sister:
She saved him can he save her?
Since the official photo of the door has not been released, we are left to ponder.
It is reported that Rebecca was an artist (family), yet the manner in which she used the materials (two brushes and a tube of Amsterdam acrylic black paint) to accomplish the message seems strange from an artist's point of view.
It appears from the materials left at the scene that paint was squeezed directly from the tube to the brush, or dabbed with the brush from the tube.
I discussed this with my mother who has been doing calligraphy for 30 years. She used to make banners for all sorts of occasions using acrylic tube paint and has never used the paint in that manner. She doesn't remember anyone in her group that has used this method, either. Over the years this entails at least 20 people as the group has grown and changed.
From two art instruction sites that I could find online for free,
both include a palette or other (saucer) for an initial deposit of the paint.
http://www.art-is-fun.com/artists-supplies.html
http://www.wikihow.com/Paint
More than likely the description of block letters has to do with with a printing style (as opposed to cursive) that is, by default, wider because of the width of the brush. The style of printing will still carry the characteristics of the writer. Only stencils would deliver such a uniform look as to be devoid of the writer's innate style.
I can always identify my mom's style whether block, cursive or special font.
This is why it would have been important to publish the photo of the message on the door in order to see if anyone could recognize the style. Also it should have been examined thoroughly by a handwriting expert.
JBean
09-11-2011, 01:42 PM
thank you elfie-good thread idea.
elfie
09-11-2011, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
Yes. Here you go:
From here:
http://www.dickblick.com/products/am...ckw=00643-2020
Click on the link and you'll see that the image matches the type of paint Rebecca allegedly used.
~~~~
Thanks. When I was studying art in college there was a Dick Blick warehouse nearby going out of business and made several trips. Years ago, of course.
Still having difficulty finding the manufacturer site, though.
__________________
But you, my daughter, you will linger on in darkness and in doubt as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Here you will dwell bound to your grief under the fading trees until all the world is changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent. --Elrond, LOTR
CDS22
09-11-2011, 03:02 PM
An cryptic message was painted on the door of the maid's quarters cum guest room for which we have two versions:
Per ME:
She saved him can you save her?
Per Rebecca's sister:
She saved him can he save her?
Since the official photo of the door has not been released, we are left to ponder.
It is reported that Rebecca was an artist (family), yet the manner in which she used the materials (two brushes and a tube of Amsterdam acrylic black paint) to accomplish the message seems strange from an artist's point of view.
It appears from the materials left at the scene that paint was squeezed directly from the tube to the brush, or dabbed with the brush from the tube.
I discussed this with my mother who has been doing calligraphy for 30 years. She used to make banners for all sorts of occasions using acrylic tube paint and has never used the paint in that manner. She doesn't remember anyone in her group that has used this method, either. Over the years this entails at least 20 people as the group has grown and changed.
From two art instruction sites that I could find online for free,
both include a palette or other (saucer) for an initial deposit of the paint.
http://www.art-is-fun.com/artists-supplies.html
http://www.wikihow.com/Paint
More than likely the description of block letters has to do with with a printing style (as opposed to cursive) that is, by default, wider because of the width of the brush. The style of printing will still carry the characteristics of the writer. Only stencils would deliver such a uniform look as to be devoid of the writer's innate style.
I can always identify my mom's style whether block, cursive or special font.
This is why it would have been important to publish the photo of the message on the door in order to see if anyone could recognize the style. Also it should have been examined thoroughly by a handwriting expert.
Acrylic paint isn't used to do calligraphy. It's used for postering (letters that are poster-ready) and painting. Only when using acrylic as a means to imitate oil and watercolor, would it be watered down (for shading purposes).
So for painting block letters, it could easily be squeezed from the tube onto the brush. In fact, that's the only way I've ever done lettering with acrylic paint, and that is the way I've taught the use of acrylic paint in university classes.
All that said, just because it is very possible that Rebecca could have painted those letters with that paint and those tools, doesn't mean that she did it, or that she did it without coercion.
As far as how recognizable one's block letters are, if you're a very good artist, your lettering will not be recognizable, in the sense that it will look as though it were printed out or done through stenciling. Again, this is only if someone were a bona fide, professional artist of high quality. I don't think Rebecca fell into that category, but perhaps she was.
I wouldn't be able to tell by looking at her handwriting and then at her block letters, to tell if she wrote the words on the back of a door, but I would think they'd have a handwriting expert analyze it. If they didn't, it still isn't too late for the family to hire someone to do so.
jjenny
09-11-2011, 03:17 PM
They didn't have a handwriting expert to analyze it. The family (through the lawyer) complained about that.
elfie
09-11-2011, 03:21 PM
Acrylic paint isn't used to do calligraphy. It's used for postering (letters that are poster-ready) and painting. Only when using acrylic as a means to imitate oil and watercolor, would it be watered down (for shading purposes).
So for painting block letters, it could easily be squeezed from the tube onto the brush. In fact, that's the only way I've ever done lettering with acrylic paint, and that is the way I've taught the use of acrylic paint in university classes.
All that said, just because it is very possible that Rebecca could have painted those letters with that paint and those tools, doesn't mean that she did it, or that she did it without coercion.
As far as how recognizable one's block letters are, if you're a very good artist, your lettering will not be recognizable, in the sense that it will look as though it were printed out or done through stenciling. Again, this is only if someone were a bona fide, professional artist of high quality. I don't think Rebecca fell into that category, but perhaps she was.
I wouldn't be able to tell by looking at her handwriting and then at her block letters, to tell if she wrote the words on the back of a door, but I would think they'd have a handwriting expert analyze it. If they didn't, it still isn't too late for the family to hire someone to do so.
Good points. I googled tube to brush method and came up with numerous results. Several techniques are cited, but the main one from About.com suggests the artist be ambidextrous!
I also think if an analyst could still have access to the door with the original message intact, an accurate analysis would be possible.
elfie
09-11-2011, 03:25 PM
They didn't have a handwriting expert to analyze it. The family (through the lawyer) complained about that.
Exactly, jjenny! I think it would be difficult to come to an accurate conclusion without seeing message on the door itself.
CDS22
09-11-2011, 04:02 PM
I read somewhere that Rebecca's fingerprint (encased in the same black acrylic paint she allegedly used) was found by the letters on the door. Did anyone else hear that?
branwynbreeze
09-11-2011, 05:28 PM
Looking at LE pic it appears there is no easy paint from tube tip on paint tube.
I paint and frankly think it's a huge pain in the rear to paint from a tube. For a dab here and there maybe. I would probably make a mess esp if painting higher than my arm comfort level without a ladder or stool. I wish we could see how neat or messy message was written.
HowLoveCanBe
09-11-2011, 05:28 PM
Yes her right hand print was found on the door by the message. This prompted some suggestion that she would have had to use her left hand to paint. I can also see a situation where she would place her right hand before or after painting the message with her right hand.
cali_mommy
09-11-2011, 06:42 PM
Just curious about what others think the message actually means???
Winnts
09-11-2011, 10:13 PM
Well I'm sure if they had it analyzed they would have been able to determine by the strokes if the person was left or right handed.
jjenny
09-11-2011, 10:14 PM
Well I'm sure if they had it analyzed they would have been able to determine by the strokes if the person was left or right handed.
As far as I can tell they have done nothing to analyze the message.
CDS22
09-11-2011, 10:22 PM
Just curious about what others think the message actually means???
I think it could mean that Rebecca was angry and hurt at the time of her death. I imagine the scenario this way, and again, these are just my thoughts and nothing more:
I think that JS MIGHT have told RZ that Max wasn't going to make it, and asked her to move out of the mansion before he got back to it. I think RZ MIGHT have been angry because she credited herself with "saving" MS, even though he was going to die eventually. So she possibly could have planned her message (angry black block letters) as a dig at JS - She (RZ) saved him (MS), can you (JS ) save her?
I also believe she hanged herself in the nude because I read an article that Ocean linked here on thread 1, 2, or 3 that stated that nude suicides are usally committed by people who are angry and want to get back at someone.
I also think that was why she possibly could have killed herself outside, where AS or someone coming to the guest house (perhaps JS to see his brother?) could find her.
My humble two cents.
CDS22
09-11-2011, 10:23 PM
Well I'm sure if they had it analyzed they would have been able to determine by the strokes if the person was left or right handed.
Yes, that is a very good point.
RZ’s sister said she was a Christian.
Maybe it is the religious term “saved”
Having computer problems but grabbed a couple of links:
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE SAVED?
When we talk about following Jesus, we often talk about “being saved.” Just
what does that mean, and if it is important, how do we become saved? All
humans sin, for it is our nature to sin. We have to be responsible for our
sin, and take the consequences for our sin. The ultimate consequence for sin
is to receive the punishment that we deserve, which is to be punished
eternally with Satan in Hell. Therefore, to be saved means that we are saved
from the punishment that we deserve. If we are “saved,” that means the same
thing as if we say we have “received salvation.”
http://www.bebaptized.org/whatdoesitmean.htm
And:
Punishment – Being saved means I no longer face eternal punishment but am saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9).
Protection – Being saved means that in Christ we have protection from the attacks of the enemy Satan. God has provided spiritual armor for the battle (Ephesians 6:10-18).
http://www.rapturenotes.com/whatisbeingsaved.html
Sorry the link and wrap buttons aren’t working for me and also had to post quick because I keep getting logged completely out and off the net!
imo
sdcali
09-12-2011, 03:34 PM
I have a hard time believing that an alleged suicidal Rebecca authored it since the message was written in the third person. It is too similar to messages left at crime scenes rather than suicides.
She could have said the same thing: I saved Maxie can God save me? or I saved Maxie, can Jonah save me?
IMO, if it were written by woman driven to kill herself, she would have been penned a message on paper in her own handwriting.
My personal, hinky meter goes crazy when instead, the message is written in the third person, with paint and a brush (squeezed from the tube to the brush, no less) onto a door.
SunnieRN
09-12-2011, 03:40 PM
With a convenient print right there no less. Also, why so much paint on her hands, breasts, back, but none on the rope, not much on the carpet and no drips running down the door?
CDS22
09-12-2011, 03:40 PM
RZ’s sister said she was a Christian.
Maybe it is the religious term “saved”
Having computer problems but grabbed a couple of links:
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE SAVED?
When we talk about following Jesus, we often talk about “being saved.” Just
what does that mean, and if it is important, how do we become saved? All
humans sin, for it is our nature to sin. We have to be responsible for our
sin, and take the consequences for our sin. The ultimate consequence for sin
is to receive the punishment that we deserve, which is to be punished
eternally with Satan in Hell. Therefore, to be saved means that we are saved
from the punishment that we deserve. If we are “saved,” that means the same
thing as if we say we have “received salvation.”
http://www.bebaptized.org/whatdoesitmean.htm
And:
Punishment – Being saved means I no longer face eternal punishment but am saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9).
Protection – Being saved means that in Christ we have protection from the attacks of the enemy Satan. God has provided spiritual armor for the battle (Ephesians 6:10-18).
http://www.rapturenotes.com/whatisbeingsaved.html
Sorry the link and wrap buttons aren’t working for me and also had to post quick because I keep getting logged completely out and off the net!
imo
I don't buy the hyper-religious stuff they're claiming. Why would she think suicide would send her to hell but adultery, fornication, and shoplifting wouldn't ? Plus maybe she thought God would give her a pass on suicide because He'd understand the pain she's in, or see her death as an atonement for Max's death (if she felt guilt about it). Just speculating.
I posted a link to an article about naked suicides earlier today. it said that sometimes people who kill themselves in the nude see themselves as sacrificial lambs, or are trying to imitate Christ who hung naked on the cross. I thought that was a very interesting assessment.
prufrock
09-12-2011, 03:50 PM
Hi, folks. Long time lurker. This case has moved me to comment.
I believe that the message on the door means that Rebecca saved Jonah, now can Jonah save Rebecca?
I can imagine some sort love talk going on between Jonah and Rebecca when things were better. Perhaps Jonah could have shared with Rebecca that he was in some sort of extreme state of loneliness or despair due the state of his relationships with women (two divorces? at least one acrimonious). Something like, "Rebecca, before I met you my life was bleak, but you brought the beauty back into my life. You saved me from despair." This would also have been helpful to Jonah if at some point he needed to convince Rebecca that his intentions were sincere.
Before her death, Rebecca could have been in a similar state of despair, with Jonah nowhere to be found, unable to save her from the fate she has in mind.
I know this points toward the suicide theory, which, to be honest, I don't buy. However, to be fair, this is what came to me. Just my opinion.
SophieRose
09-12-2011, 03:54 PM
I have a hard time believing that an alleged suicidal Rebecca authored it since the message was written in the third person. It is too similar to messages left at crime scenes rather than suicides.
She could have said the same thing: I saved Maxie can God save me? or I saved Maxie, can Jonah save me?
IMO, if it were written by woman driven to kill herself, she would have been penned a message on paper in her own handwriting.
My personal, hinky meter goes crazy when instead, the message is written in the third person, with paint and a brush (squeezed from the tube to the brush, no less) onto a door.
If you think it's a murder, what do you think the perp meant by the message?
sdcali
09-12-2011, 03:57 PM
With a convenient print right there no less. Also, why so much paint on her hands, breasts, back, but none on the rope, not much on the carpet and no drips running down the door?
Yes! If I were writing on the door, I would either open it up all the way, so it was against the wall and rest my arms against the door to steady my hand as I made block lettering. If the door were ajar, I would hold the door with my left hand (if I were right handed) as I wrote a message.
I am going to go re-read the report to see exactly where on her hands the paint was found.
CuriousHousewife
09-12-2011, 03:59 PM
I don't buy the hyper-religious stuff they're claiming. Why would she think suicide would send her to hell but adultery, fornication, and shoplifting wouldn't ?
That's a point I made in an earlier thread. She's "shacking up" with this guy, but that's not a sin to this "very religious" woman? I don't buy it. Maybe her family is or part of her family is and they would have liked to see her that way, but I doubt she was as devout as they are painting her to be...no pun intended.
SophieRose
09-12-2011, 04:00 PM
RZ’s sister said she was a Christian.
Maybe it is the religious term “saved”
Having computer problems but grabbed a couple of links:
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE SAVED?
When we talk about following Jesus, we often talk about “being saved.” Just
what does that mean, and if it is important, how do we become saved? All
humans sin, for it is our nature to sin. We have to be responsible for our
sin, and take the consequences for our sin. The ultimate consequence for sin
is to receive the punishment that we deserve, which is to be punished
eternally with Satan in Hell. Therefore, to be saved means that we are saved
from the punishment that we deserve. If we are “saved,” that means the same
thing as if we say we have “received salvation.”
http://www.bebaptized.org/whatdoesitmean.htm
And:
Punishment – Being saved means I no longer face eternal punishment but am saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9).
Protection – Being saved means that in Christ we have protection from the attacks of the enemy Satan. God has provided spiritual armor for the battle (Ephesians 6:10-18).
http://www.rapturenotes.com/whatisbeingsaved.html
Sorry the link and wrap buttons aren’t working for me and also had to post quick because I keep getting logged completely out and off the net!
imo
I had thought she may have used "saved" in the religious sense as she may have baptized MS at some point. But he was only 6, and in some Christian denomonations baptism doesn't even occur until later. But she may have talked to MS about her religious beliefs and felt somehow she had saved him. If the second part was "He" then it may mean God/Jesus.
jjenny
09-12-2011, 04:05 PM
I had thought she may have used "saved" in the religious sense as she may have baptized MS at some point. But he was only 6, and in some Christian denomonations baptism doesn't even occur until later. But she may have talked to MS about her religious beliefs and felt somehow she had saved him. If the second part was "He" then it may mean God/Jesus.
Baptized? Really? Isn't MS Jewish?
CDS22
09-12-2011, 04:06 PM
I had thought she may have used "saved" in the religious sense as she may have baptized MS at some point. But he was only 6, and in some Christian denomonations baptism doesn't even occur until later. But she may have talked to MS about her religious beliefs and felt somehow she had saved him. If the second part was "He" then it may mean God/Jesus.
MS and JS were Jewish. I read in a Jewish paper that RZ was converting to Judaism for them (which would really blow the zealot Christian theory out of the water) but I can't find the article now. Perhaps they pulled it because it wasn't accurate? Or perhaps my search engine functions stink. :)
This article identifies her as Jewish:
http://yourjewishnews.com/8769.aspx
ehough22
09-12-2011, 04:09 PM
To be honest, I don't buy any of the interpretations that involve this being a suicide note. They don't make sense. I've seen 2 intepretations of the "she saved him" part:
1. "Him" meaning Max. Sorry, I don't buy it. She may or may not have successfully performed CPR on him but the child was still lying in an ICU with machines controlling his body functions. That in itself is certainly not saving him. Secondly, she allegedly decided to commit suicide after JS informed her Max wouldn't survive. In that case, she definitely did not save him. So which is it? She was so upset that he was going to die that she wrote a suicide note saying she saved the child who is dying? That doesn't make sense.
2. "Him" meaning Jonah. I don't mean to speak down of Rebecca as I don't know her at all but Jonah is a high powered, wealthy, influential millionaire in a mansion. I don't see how his girlfriend could save him figuratively. I don't see how anyone would save him. I also don't believe that his actions and statements over the past few weeks point to a man who believed this woman saved him.
As for the second part of the sentence, for me it does differ on the wording. Either way I think if we are to believe LE's version of events, Rebecca knew no one would be able to save her. Seems strange to use your last words to state something that she had to know wasn't possible. And in the third person, no less.
IMO this is a stereotypical taunting message from a killer.
SophieRose
09-12-2011, 04:10 PM
Baptized? Really? Isn't MS Jewish?
Yes, but Rebecca's family have said that she was very religious in her Christian faith. How did she reconcile that with JS and children being Jewish? I worked with a woman whose daughter's in-laws had taken their grandson and had him baptized behind her back.
jjenny
09-12-2011, 04:14 PM
Yes, but Rebecca's family have said that she was very religious in her Christian faith. How did she reconcile that with JS and children being Jewish? I worked with a woman whose daughter's in-laws had taken their grandson and had him baptized behind her back.
RN was only a girlfriend, not a wife. I really don't envision her trying to do anything like that, because of consequences.
jjenny
09-12-2011, 04:16 PM
To be honest, I don't buy any of the interpretations that involve this being a suicide note. They don't make sense. I've seen 2 intepretations of the "she saved him" part:
1. "Him" meaning Max. Sorry, I don't buy it. She may or may not have successfully performed CPR on him but the child was still lying in an ICU with machines controlling his body functions. That in itself is certainly not saving him. Secondly, she allegedly decided to commit suicide after JS informed her Max wouldn't survive. In that case, she definitely did not save him. So which is it? She was so upset that he was going to die that she wrote a suicide note saying she saved the child who is dying? That doesn't make sense.
2. "Him" meaning Jonah. I don't mean to speak down of Rebecca as I don't know her at all but Jonah is a high powered, wealthy, influential millionaire in a mansion. I don't see how his girlfriend could save him figuratively. I don't see how anyone would save him. I also don't believe that his actions and statements over the past few weeks point to a man who believed this woman saved him.
...
Agree with you on both points. If she got a message saying MS was not going to make it, writing She saved him meaning She (RN) saved him (MS) makes no sense because he was not going to make it and she supposedly knew it. And unless she gave JS a kidney (which she didn't) I don't understand why she would write "she saved him" meaning she (RN) saved him (JS).
sdcali
09-12-2011, 04:20 PM
If you think it's a murder, what do you think the perp meant by the message?
I think it is either complete nonsense to confuse everyone, or the person the message was meant for is the only one who will understand it.
IMO, in order to determine what the message means, we have to know who the "she", "him", "you" and "her" are.
There are many possibilities given the logical possible choices:
The "she"--RZ,DS,GS,XZ.
The "him"--MS,JS,AS,ES,Ocean.
The "you" RZ,DS,GS,XZ,MS,JS,AS,ES.
The "her"--RZ,DS,GS,XZ.
As an example, we do not know what kind of relationship or contact Rebecca had with AS and perhaps, in the two years that she and JS were together, Rebecca came to AS' defense or some other scenario--maybe even at dinner that night--and that could be interpreted as her "saving him" from something. So by hanging her in plain sight of the guest house--the message taunts AS to ask "can you save her?"
Someone knows what the message means. LE did not comment on whether or not anyone in the Shacknai family understood it. Rebecca's family indicated they did not.
I can fathom a lot of different possibilites and I am not sold on any of them at this point, except, my gut tells me that Rebecca did not author the message.
sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 04:39 PM
I have a hard time believing that an alleged suicidal Rebecca authored it since the message was written in the third person. It is too similar to messages left at crime scenes rather than suicides.
She could have said the same thing: I saved Maxie can God save me? or I saved Maxie, can Jonah save me?
IMO, if it were written by woman driven to kill herself, she would have been penned a message on paper in her own handwriting.
My personal, hinky meter goes crazy when instead, the message is written in the third person, with paint and a brush (squeezed from the tube to the brush, no less) onto a door.
bbm
Exactly! The wording indicates it was written by someone other than RZ.
Unless there is evidence brought forward that demonstrates RZ had referred to herself in the past in the 3rd person, I will remain unconvinced she is the author of the message on the door.
IMO, the message on the door sounds more like a taunting riddle a murderer would leave @ the scene of a crime, and not at all like the final words of a suicidal woman who would want the circumstances of her last act on Earth to be understood by her loved ones.
chasing.halos
09-20-2011, 11:06 AM
Do you all think maybe, if Rebecca did indeed write the message, that the "She saved him" part could be taken this way:
Rebecca let Maxie die to be "saved" by God.
Another way of interpreting it. I am not saying I believe this, just looking at it in a different light after speaking with some involved in this case.
jjenny
09-20-2011, 11:10 AM
Do you all think maybe, if Rebecca did indeed write the message, that the "She saved him" part could be taken this way:
Rebecca let Maxie die to be "saved" by God.
Another way of interpreting it. I am not saying I believe this, just looking at it in a different light after speaking with some involved in this case.
Max was a child, thus he has not sinned. So why would he need to be saved by God?
chasing.halos
09-20-2011, 11:24 AM
Max was a child, thus he has not sinned. So why would he need to be saved by God?
I am not religious and am ignorant of a lot of religions. Do most Christian religions believe this?
I just think the word "saved" is interesting here because it could be interpreted different ways.
steff13
09-20-2011, 11:30 AM
Max was a child, thus he has not sinned. So why would he need to be saved by God?
Don't some denominations believe you are born with original sin? You have to be baptized in order to get rid of it, I think. Being that he was Jewish, it seems unlikely he was baptized.
I don't think that's what it means, but I can see that POV.
jjenny
09-20-2011, 11:33 AM
Don't some denominations believe you are born with original sin? You have to be baptized in order to get rid of it, I think. Being that he was Jewish, it seems unlikely he was baptized.
I don't think that's what it means, but I can see that POV.
I don't know much about that, but I fail to understand then why Max' dying would mean he was somehow saved.
chasing.halos
09-20-2011, 11:44 AM
I don't know much about that, but I fail to understand then why Max' dying would mean he was somehow saved.
"Saved" from this evil world... "saved" so he could be safe in the arms of God....
CDS22
09-20-2011, 11:48 AM
Do you all think maybe, if Rebecca did indeed write the message, that the "She saved him" part could be taken this way:
Rebecca let Maxie die to be "saved" by God.
Another way of interpreting it. I am not saying I believe this, just looking at it in a different light after speaking with some involved in this case.
Oh my, that's interesting.
daisy.faithfull
09-20-2011, 12:22 PM
I keep wondering how/if state of mind had anything to do with what and how the message was written.
If Rebecca committed suicide it seems unlikely that she was in her right mind. Would she have bothered to get a palette for the paint? There's just so many unanswered questions and different ways of interpreting what we do know...
I do think that the capital letters and leaving the message on the door is consistent with how she may have killed herself in that it is much more 'in your face' than leaving a note.
I also wonder about where Rebecca kept her painting supplies. Were they out where a murderer would see, or were they tucked away somewhere? I can see a murderer grabbing something that is readily available, but not hunting around for something.
Also, do we know how Rebecca signed her paintings? I wouldn't think signing in all caps is common, but I still would be interested in knowing the answer to that question.
They didn't have a handwriting expert to analyze it. The family (through the lawyer) complained about that.
I think this definitely should have been looked into. However, I still agree with this (I'm assuming block leters means writing in all capitals)
http://handwritinganalysis-1.blogspot.com/2009/03/when-people-write-in-all-capitals.html
The least possible is revealed from writing in all capitals. Printing shows less than script, but when all the writing is in capitals, it hides even more.
Most handwritten ransom notes, for example, are written in all capitals!
I think finding a note or using any written evidence related to a death/murder that is in all printed caps is immediately suspect since it is much more difficult to know who wrote it.
daisy.faithfull
09-20-2011, 12:32 PM
chasing.halos,
I think your interpretations of the message are really interesting. I wish that the message was not written in all caps so we could see if it was written 'He' or 'he'.
I have a hard time believing that an alleged suicidal Rebecca authored it since the message was written in the third person. It is too similar to messages left at crime scenes rather than suicides.
She could have said the same thing: I saved Maxie can God save me? or I saved Maxie, can Jonah save me?
IMO, if it were written by woman driven to kill herself, she would have been penned a message on paper in her own handwriting.
My personal, hinky meter goes crazy when instead, the message is written in the third person, with paint and a brush (squeezed from the tube to the brush, no less) onto a door.
My thoguhts exactly. To add to what you have said.... this is one more laborious thing, along with the complicated rope tying scenario, that we are expected to believe she did (along with typing herself that way and then hoping out to the railing and heaving herself over!).
I don't believe being an artist makes one think they want to paint words either although I don't know what kind of art Rebecca did. This all sounds like some kind of silly staging to me to make it look like Rebecca did it (so maybe I will have to go back on my previous thoughts that this was just a murder and instead say it was a murder staged to look like a suicide - still thinking on that one). The staging or whatever looks to us to provide some kind of proof it was suicide, but it would be easy to set-up really and I think 'silly' because we are to believe that since she was an artist she would leave a note in paint on the door.
I've thought from the beginning someone used threats or a gun to get her to do some things and still think that's very probable. I'm still not convinced she even went over that balcony.
Was there paint found on the shirt tied around her neck and in her mouth?
Yes, but Rebecca's family have said that she was very religious in her Christian faith. How did she reconcile that with JS and children being Jewish? I worked with a woman whose daughter's in-laws had taken their grandson and had him baptized behind her back.
I really take it that both Rebecca and Jonah were liberal in their religious perspectives. I feel too many here are trying to impose a fairly strict or more conservative Christian perspective on what Rebecca may have believed. I don't see any reason a person can't be very religious (or spiritual) Christian and also accept their partner being Jewish and his children following those traditions? In fact, I've known a lot of folks like that.
steff13
09-20-2011, 01:17 PM
I think finding a note or using any written evidence related to a death/murder that is in all printed caps is immediately suspect since it is much more difficult to know who wrote it.
Agreed.
Obviously, someone who intends to commit suicide is not in their "right" mind, but if this was meant as some sort of suicide note or final thought or whatever, why write it in such an unusual way? It's as though the intent was to obscure the writer of the message, and I have to wonder why Rebecca would do that? Certainly, if she commited suicide, she recognized that her death would be determined to be a suicide, and there is no reason to use anything other than her own handwriting to write it.
Is it possible she did all this with the intention of making it difficult for LE to determine her cause of death, maybe even to make it appear as though she was murdered? It's a stretch, IMO, but I suppose it's possible.
Wendy101
09-20-2011, 01:28 PM
Just curious about what others think the message actually means???
She saved him, can he save her
She (killer) saved Jonah (from sin) - can he save her (the killer) (from murder charges) ?
Pollywog
09-20-2011, 01:30 PM
I just cannot believe she would go to the trouble to tie her feet together, gag herself, get the rope around her neck and then tie her hands together before hanging herself. I don't think it was suicide IMO.
Agreed.
Obviously, someone who intends to commit suicide is not in their "right" mind, but if this was meant as some sort of suicide note or final thought or whatever, why write it in such an unusual way? It's as though the intent was to obscure the writer of the message, and I have to wonder why Rebecca would do that? Certainly, if she commited suicide, she recognized that her death would be determined to be a suicide, and there is no reason to use anything other than her own handwriting to write it.
Is it possible she did all this with the intention of making it difficult for LE to determine her cause of death, maybe even to make it appear as though she was murdered? It's a stretch, IMO, but I suppose it's possible.
I just can't see Rebecca obscuring her own cause of death and motive. I think there would be a motive to make it look bizarre or obscured/mysterious if she were murdered. Put that together with someone knowingly covering their own DNA and other evidence and I think there is a strong case for murder.
The message on the door just doesn't seem to mean anything from any perspective related to Rebecca writing it or doing it in that way. I think it is either meaningless and left by the killer to add a bizarre/mysterious facet and make it look like a suicide or a serial killer or perhaps it is a message for someone, staging the crime scene (poorly?), etc.?
The message still seems reminiscent of this genre of fantasy/fiction to me:
Someone To Protect - A Sesshomaru Fanfic Video - YouTube
http://www.google.com/images/icons/sectionized_ui/play_c.gif
(http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DHvnIWHhK7tQ&rct=j&sa=X&ei=HMN4TqChA8ifsQKBkqnUDQ&ved=0CCgQuAIwAQ&q=she+saved+him+can+he+save+her++site:+youtube&usg=AFQjCNEJJrKboYFYakw2yLKC5D10xbSJrA) www.youtube (http://www.%3Cb%3Eyoutube%3C/b%3E).com/watch?v=HvnIWHhK7tQ7 min - Sep 30, 2009 - Uploaded by shedvil1985
She then asks if she is in debt to him because he saved her. ... to no-one, but if she could choose who she belonged to, it would be him ...
Devil May Cry Walkthrough (PS2) Part 25 - YouTube
http://www.google.com/images/icons/sectionized_ui/play_c.gif
(http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DbzVSThW6mvU&rct=j&sa=X&ei=HMN4TqChA8ifsQKBkqnUDQ&ved=0CC4QuAIwAg&q=she+saved+him+can+he+save+her++site:+youtube&usg=AFQjCNGn-6oQtdgLDBUb1LEJKv1oO3Sgaw) www.youtube (http://www.%3Cb%3Eyoutube%3C/b%3E).com/watch?v=bzVSThW6mvU11 min - Nov 11, 2009 - Uploaded by AplG7Rocks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=judSO1swOUU ... She saved him. He shed tears for her and blame himself for not being their to save ...
He Saved Me (Jemi Vampire/Love Story) Chapter.1 - YouTube
http://www.google.com/images/icons/sectionized_ui/play_c.gif
(http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Db8NaQfbsV0o&rct=j&sa=X&ei=HMN4TqChA8ifsQKBkqnUDQ&ved=0CDQQuAIwAw&q=she+saved+him+can+he+save+her++site:+youtube&usg=AFQjCNEbZnAL3PHWVT4i4ii1egTEHwaDRw) www.youtube (http://www.%3Cb%3Eyoutube%3C/b%3E).com/watch?v=b8NaQfbsV0o4 sec - Aug 15, 2011 - Uploaded by mongouseGirl8786
Joe looked at her through the darkness as he could see her perfectly. J: 'i can save you dems' D:(looked at him confused) 'what are ...
sdcali
09-20-2011, 01:55 PM
I think this definitely should have been looked into. However, I still agree with this (I'm assuming block leters means writing in all capitals)
http://handwritinganalysis-1.blogspot.com/2009/03/when-people-write-in-all-capitals.html
I think finding a note or using any written evidence related to a death/murder that is in all printed caps is immediately suspect since it is much more difficult to know who wrote it.
In the AR, the message was typed with just the first letter of each word capitalized...which is even odder to me.
sdcali
09-20-2011, 01:56 PM
She saved him, can he save her
She (killer) saved Jonah (from sin) - can he save her (the killer) (from murder charges) ?
The AR says the message was "...Can You Save Her". It is Rebecca's family that said that the You is He.
In the AR, the message was typed with just the first letter of each word capitalized...which is even odder to me.
I wonder if this is how it was written?
SHE SAVED HIM ....
Using lower case letters when quickly painting a suicide note, seems even less likely
Just out of cryptographic curiosity I put the beginnings of the letters into google and get this! :crazy:
How to avoid access computer through ssh (http://www.expertcore.org/viewtopic.php?t=2274)
You can use the following command to avoid access via SSH for a given user account. Code: Select all: # chsh -s /sbin/nologin {username} ...
Wendy101
09-20-2011, 02:10 PM
The AR says the message was "...Can You Save Her". It is Rebecca's family that said that the You is He.
so then the can you save her - is someone leaving a message for Jonah?
coastal
09-20-2011, 03:11 PM
It almost sounds like someone, who ultimately murdered Rebecca, wanted Jonah to suffer the loss of someone he loved. His target: the beloved Max. Max is attacked and left for dead, but Max didn't die, because "she saved him". So, she will die in his place, unless "you", Jonah, can save her (which he obviously could not).
I know it sounds like something out of a bad novel, but nothing else makes any sense of the words for me.
Who would want to cause Jonah such pain, and why?
thinkingstraight
09-20-2011, 03:22 PM
Agreed.
Obviously, someone who intends to commit suicide is not in their "right" mind, but if this was meant as some sort of suicide note or final thought or whatever, why write it in such an unusual way? It's as though the intent was to obscure the writer of the message, and I have to wonder why Rebecca would do that? Certainly, if she commited suicide, she recognized that her death would be determined to be a suicide, and there is no reason to use anything other than her own handwriting to write it.
Is it possible she did all this with the intention of making it difficult for LE to determine her cause of death, maybe even to make it appear as though she was murdered? It's a stretch, IMO, but I suppose it's possible.
That is a theory, but not a very popular one here.
sdcali
09-20-2011, 03:50 PM
so then the can you save her - is someone leaving a message for Jonah?
I posted upthread the various options for the She, Him, You and Her. It could be a message to JS. Or, as I posted as an example, a message to AS since she was found hanging in clear view of the guest house... I do believe the message is meant for someone specific.
KarenM
09-20-2011, 03:56 PM
Agreed.
Obviously, someone who intends to commit suicide is not in their "right" mind, but if this was meant as some sort of suicide note or final thought or whatever, why write it in such an unusual way? It's as though the intent was to obscure the writer of the message, and I have to wonder why Rebecca would do that? Certainly, if she commited suicide, she recognized that her death would be determined to be a suicide, and there is no reason to use anything other than her own handwriting to write it.
Is it possible she did all this with the intention of making it difficult for LE to determine her cause of death, maybe even to make it appear as though she was murdered? It's a stretch, IMO, but I suppose it's possible.
If she tried to make her death look like a murder and tried to obscure the writer of the message, why wouldn't she clean her hands and remove the black paint? The black paint was on her right hand, her collar bone, her breast, and the rope on her neck. To me, it looks like someone else wrote the note and went over his/her way to show Rebecca was the author. Who would be so messy to have paint over so many different body parts after writing a message?
sdcali
09-20-2011, 04:30 PM
If she tried to make her death look like a murder and tried to obscure the writer of the message, why wouldn't she clean her hands and remove the black paint? The black paint was on her right hand, her collar bone, her breast, and the rope on her neck. To me, it looks like someone else wrote the note and went over his/her way to show Rebecca was the author. Who would be so messy to have paint over so many different body parts after writing a message?
exactly...and even more curious...she had no paint on the rope bindings on her wrists and ankles...so is that to say that she was already bound --both hands and feet and hopped over to the guest room door, precisely squirted paint from the tube to the paintbrush and crafted her final words on to the door before hopping with the precision of a gymnast to the balcony and over the side?
thinkingstraight
09-20-2011, 05:06 PM
If she tried to make her death look like a murder and tried to obscure the writer of the message, why wouldn't she clean her hands and remove the black paint? The black paint was on her right hand, her collar bone, her breast, and the rope on her neck. To me, it looks like someone else wrote the note and went over his/her way to show Rebecca was the author. Who would be so messy to have paint over so many different body parts after writing a message?
And yet the paint on the body has been used as an argument for murder. It is a very suspicious and confusing situation and I for one do not have all the answers. And I'm ok with that.
stilettos
09-20-2011, 05:19 PM
If it was my family member who died...I would not stop until I found all the answers.
thinkingstraight
09-20-2011, 05:25 PM
If it was my family member who died...I would not stop until I found all the answers.
I was waiting for someone to say that. With the information publicly available to me, I can only theorize to the best of my ability. . . With the facts on hand. I'm ok with waiting on more information that will clear things up. I like to think I'm open to changing my theory should new info come out.
SunnieRN
09-20-2011, 06:10 PM
My thoguhts exactly. To add to what you have said.... this is one more laborious thing, along with the complicated rope tying scenario, that we are expected to believe she did (along with typing herself that way and then hoping out to the railing and heaving herself over!).
I don't believe being an artist makes one think they want to paint words either although I don't know what kind of art Rebecca did. This all sounds like some kind of silly staging to me to make it look like Rebecca did it (so maybe I will have to go back on my previous thoughts that this was just a murder and instead say it was a murder staged to look like a suicide - still thinking on that one). The staging or whatever looks to us to provide some kind of proof it was suicide, but it would be easy to set-up really and I think 'silly' because we are to believe that since she was an artist she would leave a note in paint on the door.
I've thought from the beginning someone used threats or a gun to get her to do some things and still think that's very probable. I'm still not convinced she even went over that balcony.
Was there paint found on the shirt tied around her neck and in her mouth?
If she tried to make her death look like a murder and tried to obscure the writer of the message, why wouldn't she clean her hands and remove the black paint? The black paint was on her right hand, her collar bone, her breast, and the rope on her neck. To me, it looks like someone else wrote the note and went over his/her way to show Rebecca was the author. Who would be so messy to have paint over so many different body parts after writing a message?
Time, you can see above where paint WAS found, but not on the shirt. Seems impossible, does it not? I wonder if there was any paint on the black latex glove, taken into evidence.
steff13
09-20-2011, 06:16 PM
That is a theory, but not a very popular one here.
Well, IMO, it's not very logical. It's more reasonable to think that someone other than Rebecca wrote it, in block letters to try to hide the fact that it wasn't Rebecca who wrote it.
Time, you can see above where paint WAS found, but not on the shirt. Seems impossible, does it not? I wonder if there was any paint on the black latex glove, taken into evidence.
Thanks ... I'm thinking someone seriously has to do a complete crime scene recreation here! Did we ever find out where her clothes were and what shower they are claiming she used? Good question about the glove.
]If she tried to make her death look like a murder and tried to obscure the writer of the message, why wouldn't she clean her hands and remove the black paint?[/B] The black paint was on her right hand, her collar bone, her breast, and the rope on her neck. To me, it looks like someone else wrote the note and went over his/her way to show Rebecca was the author. Who would be so messy to have paint over so many different body parts after writing a message?
Great question. I don't think any of this makes sense as far as a suicide note or final message. And, I can't see her painting that message naked either unless someone made her do it.
exactly...and even more curious...she had no paint on the rope bindings on her wrists and ankles...so is that to say that she was already bound --both hands and feet and hopped over to the guest room door, precisely squirted paint from the tube to the paintbrush and crafted her final words on to the door before hopping with the precision of a gymnast to the balcony and over the side?
Kind of makes one dizzy to twist things around far enough to believe any of this! :crazy:
LadyL
09-20-2011, 08:55 PM
It almost sounds like someone, who ultimately murdered Rebecca, wanted Jonah to suffer the loss of someone he loved. His target: the beloved Max. Max is attacked and left for dead, but Max didn't die, because "she saved him". So, she will die in his place, unless "you", Jonah, can save her (which he obviously could not).
I know it sounds like something out of a bad novel, but nothing else makes any sense of the words for me.
Who would want to cause Jonah such pain, and why?
yes, indeed ... or to twist it another way, who was he involved with that would want his other `distractions`out of the way and could that someone be a trusted member of the inner circle
deanna82437
09-20-2011, 09:18 PM
Thanks ... I'm thinking someone seriously has to do a complete crime scene recreation here! Did we ever find out where her clothes were and what shower they are claiming she used? Good question about the glove.
And another question I've had for months. I posted this sometime in July and has it EVER been determined what the actual message was? Some say "Can You save her" and some say "Can He save her". I think the sister stated on TV that it was "Can HE save her". It really does have two different meanings in my mind.
jjenny
09-20-2011, 09:20 PM
And another question I've had for months. I posted this sometime in July and has it EVER been determined what the actual message was? Some say "Can You save her" and some say "Can He save her". I think the sister stated on TV that it was "Can HE save her". It really does have two different meanings in my mind.
For whatever reason police decided not to show us the message itself. I mean, we saw the naked body on the ground, do police think seeing the message is going to harm us somehow? The case is closed, so they can't really explain it by trying to preserve evidence. Why have they not shown us the actual message?
And another question I've had for months. I posted this sometime in July and has it EVER been determined what the actual message was? Some say "Can You save her" and some say "Can He save her". I think the sister stated on TV that it was "Can HE save her". It really does have two different meanings in my mind.
I was wondering that also... the family/their attorney said the coroner made a mistake and it was 'he'. Seems pretty direct and succinct!
thinkingstraight
09-20-2011, 10:57 PM
Well, IMO, it's not very logical. It's more reasonable to think that someone other than Rebecca wrote it, in block letters to try to hide the fact that it wasn't Rebecca who wrote it.
oh, well thank you for your opinion.
steff13
09-20-2011, 11:31 PM
oh, well thank you for your opinion.
You're quite welcome.
1.) I did some measurements, and assumed that most doors are of standard height. judging from the height of the message above the floor, it more or less eye-level with a 5'8" to 6 foot person (the average height of the american male is 5'9". )So theres a fair chance it was painted at eye-level by a tall female or a man of around 5'8" or taller.
2.) the fingerprint of rebecca on the door does not mean anything except to indicate she was in the house(thats obvious). she could have done it or the perp could have held rebecca's finger to leave fingerprint on the door.
3.) one reason i can think of for using block style is to camouflage the perp's handwriting.
jjenny
09-21-2011, 01:52 AM
I don't think the height at which the message is written means anything.
The reason for this I believe is as follows: the door has panels. It's not flat. Whoever wrote the message would need space to write a message, so it's written on a large panel as opposed to the small panel below it. So it could have been written by a tall person or a short person-it really doesn't tell anything about the height of a person writing it.
the uniformity of the thickness of the strokes might give an indication if the message was written by a short or tall person. for example, if there is an undue thickness towards the bottom, the message might have been written by a shorter person.
I don't think the height at which the message is written means anything.
The reason for this I believe is as follows: the door has panels. It's not flat. Whoever wrote the message would need space to write a message, so it's written on a large panel as opposed to the small panel below it. So it could have been written by a tall person or a short person-it really doesn't tell anything about the height of a person writing it.
daisy.faithfull
09-21-2011, 09:52 AM
I was waiting for someone to say that. With the information publicly available to me, I can only theorize to the best of my ability. . . With the facts on hand. I'm ok with waiting on more information that will clear things up. I like to think I'm open to changing my theory should new info come out.
I its interesting that two versions of the note have been given since it could be because people are so emotionally overwhelmed by this tragedy they aren't able to think as clearly.
I also wonder if her handwriting on the door would be that similar to her writing on paper. I've been in an overwhelming situation and I remember trembling so horribly that I could hardly write let alone think clearly. I can understand it being easier to writing in caps since they're mostly straight lines with very fewer rounded strokes.
I wonder if she held the brush perpendicular to the door, or slanted like we hold a pen when writing on paper.
jjenny
09-21-2011, 10:38 AM
I its interesting that two versions of the note have been given since it could be because people are so emotionally overwhelmed by this tragedy they aren't able to think as clearly.
I also wonder if her handwriting on the door would be that similar to her writing on paper. I've been in an overwhelming situation and I remember trembling so horribly that I could hardly write let alone think clearly. I can understand it being easier to writing in caps since they're mostly straight lines with very fewer rounded strokes.
I wonder if she held the brush perpendicular to the door, or slanted like we hold a pen when writing on paper.
If RN was so horribly trembling how did she manage to bind her hands, feet, make a noose, put it on her neck, gag herself with a shirt, figure out exactly how much rope she was going to need for a long drop without ending up on the ground, and manage to get over the balcony railing with hands and feet bound?
The message on the door reminds me of Chris Coleman (murderer of wife and two sons) who spray-painted "I told you this would happen" on the wall, and of Jeffrey McDonald (murderer of wife, two daughters, unborn child) who wrote "pig" on the headboard of the bed. It is an over-used, amateurish attempt to make a murder look like it was committed by a crazed psycho-killer.
jjenny
09-22-2011, 11:25 AM
The message on the door reminds me of Chris Coleman (murderer of wife and two sons) who spray-painted "I told you this would happen" on the wall, and of Jeffrey McDonald (murderer of wife, two daughters, unborn child) who wrote "pig" on the headboard of the bed. It is an over-used, amateurish attempt to make a murder look like it was committed by a crazed psycho-killer.
You make a really good point.
steff13
09-22-2011, 11:28 AM
The message on the door reminds me of Chris Coleman (murderer of wife and two sons) who spray-painted "I told you this would happen" on the wall, and of Jeffrey McDonald (murderer of wife, two daughters, unborn child) who wrote "pig" on the headboard of the bed. It is an over-used, amateurish attempt to make a murder look like it was committed by a crazed psycho-killer.
That is a fascinating POV, thanks for adding that. I didn't think about it, but when you put it in that light, it is sort of "Mason-family-esque."
I can see someone possibly putting it there not as a suicide note, but to make RZ look like she might have been distraught to the point of insanity at the time of her death.
NocturnalLady
09-22-2011, 09:03 PM
I read an article written by Anne Bremner today that I can't find to link to for the life of me! Anyhow in the article I noticed that AB quotes the "suicide note" as reading: She save him, can you save her? It may just have been a typo to leave off the "ed" at the end of the first "saved" BUT the possibility occurred to me that perhaps Rebecca spoke English as a second language and if so maybe she made the common mistake of misusing verbs and sometimes saying the present tense when she meant the past or future. If that is the case and Anne Bremner's article is correct then I read the "suicide note" as having a very mocking tone. As in making fun of Rebecca for not speaking English correctly.
Even when I first read the wording of the "suicide note" I wondered if this was a reference to something Jonah possibly had said to Dina. If I heard from my ex-husband with whom I had had an ugly divorce that he felt that his new girlfriend had "saved him" - well that comment might rankle! If I then lost my only child in a horrific way while under the new girlfriend's watch and I then murdered her to get revenge on my ex-husband...well "She save him, can you save her?" might be just what I would say out of spite.
Found it: http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-questions-than-answers-justice.html
CDS22
09-22-2011, 09:17 PM
I read an article written by Anne Bremner today that I can't find to link to for the life of me! Anyhow in the article I noticed that AB quotes the "suicide note" as reading: She save him, can you save her? It may just have been a typo to leave off the "ed" at the end of the first "saved" BUT the possibility occurred to me that perhaps Rebecca spoke English as a second language and if so maybe she made the common mistake of misusing verbs and sometimes saying the present tense when she meant the past or future. If that is the case and Anne Bremner's article is correct then I read the "suicide note" as having a very mocking tone. As in making fun of Rebecca for not speaking English correctly.
Even when I first read the wording of the "suicide note" I wondered if this was a reference to something Jonah possibly had said to Dina. If I heard from my ex-husband with whom I had had an ugly divorce that he felt that his new girlfriend had "saved him" - well that comment might rankle! If I then lost my only child in a horrific way while under the new girlfriend's watch and I then murdered her to get revenge on my ex-husband...well "She save him, can you save her?" might be just what I would say out of spite.
Found it: http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-questions-than-answers-justice.html
That actually makes me think that RZ wrote the note herself, since English was not her first language. Thank you for this post.
jjenny
09-22-2011, 09:26 PM
That actually makes me think that RZ wrote the note herself, since English was not her first language. Thank you for this post.
We have now heard three versions of the message.
So frankly I wouldn't begin to guess which version was correct, <Mod Snip>
coastal
09-22-2011, 09:42 PM
If Rebecca was confronted with the ER Dr.'s opinion that Max's injuries weren't consistent with the accident she had described, she would have protested any wrongdoing, and, believing that it was her performance of CPR on him that kept him alive long enough for the EMTs to be able to restart Max's heart, and thus, she had saved him, she would have said so. And I can see an angry confront-er thinking, really? You saved him? Let's just see who can save you!
The message makes sense to me now.
How awful. For everybody.
greenpalm
09-22-2011, 09:47 PM
I read an article written by Anne Bremner today that I can't find to link to for the life of me! Anyhow in the article I noticed that AB quotes the "suicide note" as reading: She save him, can you save her? It may just have been a typo to leave off the "ed" at the end of the first "saved" …
Found it: http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-questions-than-answers-justice.html (respectfully snipped: BBM )
I just read Anne Bremner's article linked above. I think we can rule out her version as a typo, because she specifically says it is inconsistent with the version in the autopsy report.
Written on a door in paint was the phrase “She save him, can you save her.” But the autopsy cites the language as “She saved him, can you save her. “
NocturnalLady
09-22-2011, 10:54 PM
(respectfully snipped: BBM )
I just read Anne Bremner's article linked above. I think we can rule out her version as a typo, because she specifically says it is inconsistent with the version in the autopsy report.
Right that's what I was thinking too.
For what it's worth in my experience with people who speak English as a second language they usually write "better" than they speak in the sense that they may make a mistake during the rapidity of speech and say "save" when they mean "saved" but when they write they usually have more time and are more careful and accurate.
From what I have read, Rebecca sounds like she was a reasonably intelligent person, reasonably educated. I can see someone like that making the occasional verbal slip but not slipping up in a short, written message that was intended to be their last ever statement on earth. I can however, see someone who perhaps thought of Rebecca as a bitter rival latching onto an occasional mistake in Rebecca's speech and mocking her for it.
CDS22
09-22-2011, 11:38 PM
Right that's what I was thinking too.
For what it's worth in my experience with people who speak English as a second language they usually write "better" than they speak in the sense that they may make a mistake during the rapidity of speech and say "save" when they mean "saved" but when they write they usually have more time and are more careful and accurate.
From what I have read, Rebecca sounds like she was a reasonably intelligent person, reasonably educated. I can see someone like that making the occasional verbal slip but not slipping up in a short, written message that was intended to be their last ever statement on earth. I can however, see someone who perhaps thought of Rebecca as a bitter rival latching onto an occasional mistake in Rebecca's speech and mocking her for it.
I respectfully disagree with you. Many of my non-native English language friends will often make mistakes with writing if they are nervous or angry or upset (for example, when taking a test). I think it's very possible that this proves RZ did write the message. That is only my opinion, of course.
Thank you for posting this information here. It certainly makes the case more intriguing.
dovebar
09-23-2011, 12:19 AM
Given that they claim she had paint on her hands, I think it is possible she wrote it - with a gun to her head. It fits with stripping her naked - forcing her to write something with the slight promise that if she complies, she will not be killed. Of course, it was just part of the whole humiliation. If she was alive when she went over the rail, as they claim, just think how all this was torturous - making her write, stripping her, possibly making her bleed in some way, binding her, all to extract some revenge before the final push.
Then slamming the door behind her in anger. But that was a big error that the person then had to correct.
Lexiintoronto
09-23-2011, 01:21 AM
does JS have an older son? That I'm speculating may have been at MS's accident? And RZ's younger sister was present as well, not in the shower as reported?
she saved him, can you save her = my younger sister lied to police and said your older son was not involved or present at MS's accident. Can you please see that nothing happens to her if the truth comes out?
she (RZ's younger sister) saved him (JS's older son who I am speculating was present at MS's accident. Saved him by not telling police what his involvement might be eg: doing a trick on the staircase.)
Can you (JS) save her (RZ's younger sister. Save, as in protect her if the truth comes out that RZ's younger sister and JS's older son - if he does in fact have one - had some part in the accident)
Both Rebecca and her older sister were immigrants . Older siblings would usually have a thicker accent since they have spent more time in the old country, but when one listen's to Rebecca's older sister, her accent is almost gone and her sentences are clear and easy to understand. listen to her older sister talk:
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/on-air/as-seen-on/Zahau_s_Sister__Investigators_Got_It_Wrong_San_Die go-129069438.html
does JS have an older son? That I'm speculating may have been at MS's accident? And RZ's younger sister was present as well, not in the shower as reported?
she saved him, can you save her = my younger sister lied to police and said your older son was not involved or present at MS's accident. Can you please see that nothing happens to her if the truth comes out?
she (RZ's younger sister) saved him (JS's older son who I am speculating was present at MS's accident. Saved him by not telling police what his involvement might be eg: doing a trick on the staircase.)
Can you (JS) save her (RZ's younger sister. Save, as in protect her if the truth comes out that RZ's younger sister and JS's older son - if he does in fact have one - had some part in the accident)
Wow! That was a scenario that never occurred to me. And it makes sense out of the message if written by RZ. IMO. Thank you for giving me more to consider!
this is interesting and worth considering. however, this message interpretation is disconnected or hard to link to the suicide. its like , my sister protected your son, please protect her , ok ? while i commit suicide.
...... unless , Im not getting your drift yet. anyway, its definitely another message interpretation to consider.
does JS have an older son? That I'm speculating may have been at MS's accident? And RZ's younger sister was present as well, not in the shower as reported?
she saved him, can you save her = my younger sister lied to police and said your older son was not involved or present at MS's accident. Can you please see that nothing happens to her if the truth comes out?
she (RZ's younger sister) saved him (JS's older son who I am speculating was present at MS's accident. Saved him by not telling police what his involvement might be eg: doing a trick on the staircase.)
Can you (JS) save her (RZ's younger sister. Save, as in protect her if the truth comes out that RZ's younger sister and JS's older son - if he does in fact have one - had some part in the accident)
jjenny
09-23-2011, 02:37 AM
And what exactly would be a motive for suicide in such a scenario? She would not be blaming herself. Why would the sister need protecting? From what?
I don't think it adds up.
MyBelle
09-23-2011, 02:38 AM
If Rebecca was confronted with the ER Dr.'s opinion that Max's injuries weren't consistent with the accident she had described, she would have protested any wrongdoing, and, believing that it was her performance of CPR on him that kept him alive long enough for the EMTs to be able to restart Max's heart, and thus, she had saved him, she would have said so. And I can see an angry confront-er thinking, really? You saved him? Let's just see who can save you!
The message makes sense to me now.
How awful. For everybody.
The AR states that Rebecca was not performing CPR when the police officer arrived. She told the cop that she had given a few breaths but no reason was stated on the AR as to why she stopped. In that context, the message makes no sense to me.
JMO
Lexiintoronto
09-23-2011, 02:41 AM
this is interesting and worth considering. however, this message interpretation is disconnected or hard to link to the suicide. its like , my sister protected your son, please protect her , ok ? while i commit suicide.
...... unless , Im not getting your drift yet. anyway, its definitely another message interpretation to consider.
I finally found that JS does have a 13 yo boy and 14 yo girl. I remembered the rumour about them all (MS, step-brother and sister and RZ's sister) 'planking' on the staircase, and the two step-siblings left before EMS arrived
(note: the following is ALL MY SPECULATION)
RZ and RZ's sister lied to police, saying that MS was alone at the time of his accident. (She 'saved him'. him = JS's older son)
RZ's last request to JS was that he protect her younger sister (can you save her) as police know the younger sister was definately at the scene. (she had cut her leg on the broken glass, i believe).
To me, that is also why RZ wrote it in paint on the door, not in a note that could be hidden or ripped up or otherwise overlooked. She had to write it in code in order to not let the secret out. But she wanted it heard loud and clear.
My feeling is that the phone message she received pushed her to the edge.
-Did he say 'get out'? And she was thinking she had nothing to turn to?
- Did he say 'MS is about to die.' and RZ was grieved, but also thought now it could be a full-police investigation? One doctor had *initially* mentioned that MS may have been suffocated - did RZ, with a criminal record, think that she might be distrusted and the cover-up might be found out? What a mess they were all now in, and she was the only adult on the scene.
She felt she had to go, but was thinking of her sister.
The above will cost you :twocents: :)
jjenny
09-23-2011, 02:43 AM
From what we know now, it appears the brother was not there at the time.
So it really isn't relevant whether JS has an older son or not if he was not at the house during the accident.
Lexiintoronto
09-23-2011, 02:52 AM
And what exactly would be a motive for suicide in such a scenario? She would not be blaming herself. Why would the sister need protecting? From what?
I don't think it adds up.
still my own speculation because I can't sleep:
Suicide, because with MS now dying at that point, her world might have seen to have unravelled. It was the breaking point. The police have said that her 'phone journal' indicated she was struggling with something prior to the accident. No job, maybe she felt she failed somehow at her task to look after MS, maybe she thought she would lose JS as a result.
In my theory, RZ's sister can be put at the scene of the accident, the other two children cannot. However, the older boy was somehow involved, and RZ's sister covered for him. (So did RZ, but that didn't matter because she was about to die).
Lexiintoronto
09-23-2011, 02:54 AM
From what we know now, it appears the brother was not there at the time.
So it really isn't relevant whether JS has an older son or not if he was not at the house during the accident.
He definately wasn't there? (my poor head)
jjenny
09-23-2011, 03:42 AM
He definately wasn't there? (my poor head)
Supposedly the older children left that morning to go back to their mother, before the accident. But, regardless, in a such scenario, it would not be RN with the most to lose. Why would she kill herself over it?
Lexiintoronto
09-23-2011, 04:00 AM
Supposedly the older children left that morning to go back to their mother, before the accident. But, regardless, in a such scenario, it would not be RN with the most to lose. Why would she kill herself over it?
I think her knowing that MS was about to die was the breaking point which led her to take her life. There are likely a myriad of underlying reasons.
IMO, her last words were to JS, asking him to protect her sister.
jjenny
09-23-2011, 04:03 AM
I think her knowing that MS was about to die was the breaking point which led her to take her life. There are likely a myriad of underlying reasons.
IMO, her last words were to JS, asking him to protect her sister.
Protect her sister from what? What did the sister need to be protected from?
And by the time of the supposed suicide, the sister has already left, so it doesn't look like she was in any danger anyway.
rosemary
09-23-2011, 04:19 AM
I think her knowing that MS was about to die was the breaking point which led her to take her life. There are likely a myriad of underlying reasons.
IMO, her last words were to JS, asking him to protect her sister.
so who exactly did she 'save' then, and like jenny asked, why would her sister need to be protected? why wouldn't she have written a note or letter or email to her family before she died to ask them to protect her younger sister?
Lexiintoronto
09-23-2011, 04:28 AM
Protect her sister from what? What did the sister need to be protected from?
And by the time of the supposed suicide, the sister has already left, so it doesn't look like she was in any danger anyway.
We might be going around in circles and getting off the topic of the door.
My theory is that all the kids were there, MS and older son were doing something that resulted in the accident. RZ and her younger sister lied to police to protect the older son in saying he wasn't there.
she saved him, can you save her = JS: my sister lied to protect your older son about being involved in the accident, please protect her from prosecution/media glare/blame etc (if the truth comes out that she lied about MS being alone, that she may have been present/involved in the accident...)
I'm only guessing. And I might not be clear because it's 4:30 am and I'm awake, I have to get up in 3 hours :)
Lexiintoronto
09-23-2011, 04:39 AM
so who exactly did she 'save' then, and like jenny asked, why would her sister need to be protected? why wouldn't she have written a note or letter or email to her family before she died to ask them to protect her younger sister?
RZ's sister saved JS older son in my theory (which I regret bringing up lol!! )
She knew a note, or email with a clear explanation would blow the cover off the secret that all the kids were present at the accident. MS and older son were possibly doing a trick off the bannister, so she had to write the message cryptically, but very clearly, as to not implicate the other children. RZ may have thought with MS about to die, police would investigate further.
Disclaimer: I am guessing :runaway:
Lexiintoronto
09-23-2011, 04:45 AM
sorry, I'm probably not being concise because I'm tired!! :offtobed:
greenpalm
09-23-2011, 06:59 AM
We might be going around in circles and getting off the topic of the door.
My theory is that all the kids were there, MS and older son were doing something that resulted in the accident. RZ and her younger sister lied to police to protect the older son in saying he wasn't there.
she saved him, can you save her = JS: my sister lied to protect your older son about being involved in the accident, please protect her from prosecution/media glare/blame etc (if the truth comes out that she lied about MS being alone, that she may have been present/involved in the accident...)
I'm only guessing. And I might not be clear because it's 4:30 am and I'm awake, I have to get up in 3 hours :)
Lexiintoronto, I totally understand your theory. It's a new and interesting way of looking at things. Definitely something I hadn't considered before. The suicide theory is definitely not as popular here as the murder theory, but that makes it even more important to consider the possibility with an open mind, we at Websleuths don't want to make the error of only trying to get the facts to fit a murder scenario, thereby overlooking the way they might fit a suicide scenario. I like that you are exploring possibilities.
I'd love to figure out what time JS's teens left that morning. It would answer that part of the mystery of who was there.
I definitely think the message was deliberately cryptic to protect information, OR to look more menacing. It had to be some kind of code, or an intentional red herring to throw off the scent down the right trial.
If the person writing it had wanted it to be clear to everyone, they'd have made it so. It was deliberately oblique.… but why?
Your theory is one possibility. And it's new and refreshing. Thanks!
jjenny
09-23-2011, 08:53 AM
The improbability of that theory is that it would have to involve a big giant lie-and not just on the part of RN. And yet under that theory we are still suppose believe that her death is a suicide.
IWannaKnow
09-23-2011, 09:47 AM
I've heard it rumored that the message has been painted over already and the door rehung. Is that just web innuendo or a fact? Anyone know?
AZlawyer
09-23-2011, 11:51 AM
Looking at it from the "murder camp" point of view, I thought the message could have been sarcastic.
Maybe someone on the DS side of the family was not too convinced of the RZ version of Max's accident, given the staged appearance of the scene--especially if they knew that the doctor thought Max had been suffocated, or if the doctors said there's no way he was speaking ("Ocean") after that fall. Maybe they thought it was either murder (suffocation) or negligence on the part of RZ, covered up to look like an unavoidable accident with a convenient deathbed statement from Max that the only responsible party was "Ocean".
Maybe upon being confronted with this suspicion, JS said, "She didn't KILL him--she SAVED him" or some variation thereof. Maybe...whoever...had an angry reaction to this, particularly in light of the fact that Max was clearly going to be a vegetable at the very least.
Maybe RZ was killed by...whoever, and the message meant, "Oh, you think she 'saved' him? Well, maybe you can 'save' her...but she's not gonna be breathing for a while, so she'll be a vegetable too."
Crazy, I know. :crazy: Just brainstorming here.
IWannaKnow
09-23-2011, 01:11 PM
Looking at it from the "murder camp" point of view, I thought the message could have been sarcastic.
Maybe someone on the DS side of the family was not too convinced of the RZ version of Max's accident, given the staged appearance of the scene--especially if they knew that the doctor thought Max had been suffocated, or if the doctors said there's no way he was speaking ("Ocean") after that fall. Maybe they thought it was either murder (suffocation) or negligence on the part of RZ, covered up to look like an unavoidable accident with a convenient deathbed statement from Max that the only responsible party was "Ocean".
Maybe upon being confronted with this suspicion, JS said, "She didn't KILL him--she SAVED him" or some variation thereof. Maybe...whoever...had an angry reaction to this, particularly in light of the fact that Max was clearly going to be a vegetable at the very least.
Maybe RZ was killed by...whoever, and the message meant, "Oh, you think she 'saved' him? Well, maybe you can 'save' her...but she's not gonna be breathing for a while, so she'll be a vegetable too."
Crazy, I know. :crazy: Just brainstorming here.
:clap::clap::clap::goodpost:
SunnieRN
09-23-2011, 01:32 PM
I read an article written by Anne Bremner today that I can't find to link to for the life of me! Anyhow in the article I noticed that AB quotes the "suicide note" as reading: She save him, can you save her? It may just have been a typo to leave off the "ed" at the end of the first "saved" BUT the possibility occurred to me that perhaps Rebecca spoke English as a second language and if so maybe she made the common mistake of misusing verbs and sometimes saying the present tense when she meant the past or future. If that is the case and Anne Bremner's article is correct then I read the "suicide note" as having a very mocking tone. As in making fun of Rebecca for not speaking English correctly.
Even when I first read the wording of the "suicide note" I wondered if this was a reference to something Jonah possibly had said to Dina. If I heard from my ex-husband with whom I had had an ugly divorce that he felt that his new girlfriend had "saved him" - well that comment might rankle! If I then lost my only child in a horrific way while under the new girlfriend's watch and I then murdered her to get revenge on my ex-husband...well "She save him, can you save her?" might be just what I would say out of spite.
Found it: http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-questions-than-answers-justice.html
Exact quote:
Written on a door in paint was the phrase “She save him, can you save her.” But the autopsy cites the language as “She saved him, can you save her. “
POSTED BY CATHY SCOTT AT 8:38 AM
LABELS: ANNE BREMNER, ANNE BREMNER'S POSTS, CALIFORNIA, CORONADO ISLAND, JONAH SCHACKNAI, REBECCA ZAHUA, SUICIDE
I would like to see it confirmed that this was written by Anne Bremner.
rosemary
09-23-2011, 01:43 PM
I can see it more as suicide if the message on the door was written in imperfect English. Plus, I can probably now see why Rebecca would have chosen to kill herself in such a horrible manner. She probably felt angry and hurt that Jonah and his family as well as the LE suspected that she had intentionally hurt Max by suffocating him, even though it was later proven to be an accident after Max's autopsy.
NocturnalLady
09-23-2011, 01:55 PM
Exact quote:
Written on a door in paint was the phrase “She save him, can you save her.” But the autopsy cites the language as “She saved him, can you save her. “
POSTED BY CATHY SCOTT AT 8:38 AM
LABELS: ANNE BREMNER, ANNE BREMNER'S POSTS, CALIFORNIA, CORONADO ISLAND, JONAH SCHACKNAI, REBECCA ZAHUA, SUICIDE
I would like to see it confirmed that this was written by Anne Bremner.
I believe that the article shows Anne Bremner as the author.
Sharyne
09-24-2011, 01:21 AM
does JS have an older son? That I'm speculating may have been at MS's accident? And RZ's younger sister was present as well, not in the shower as reported?
she saved him, can you save her = my younger sister lied to police and said your older son was not involved or present at MS's accident. Can you please see that nothing happens to her if the truth comes out?
she (RZ's younger sister) saved him (JS's older son who I am speculating was present at MS's accident. Saved him by not telling police what his involvement might be eg: doing a trick on the staircase.)
Can you (JS) save her (RZ's younger sister. Save, as in protect her if the truth comes out that RZ's younger sister and JS's older son - if he does in fact have one - had some part in the accident)
I've had the same thoughts, but instead of son, I was thinking of GS(his first daughter) may have been teasing him or shoving him from the hallway prior to the stairs and he was trying to run away from her and ran into the railing and over it. Early comments were from a neighbor who knew GS said she was there and left before the paramedics came. I could see JS wanting her OUT (and probably RZ as well) of the sceen as quickly as possible, due to DS's type of temperament and their contentious divorce.
Mrs. Holmes
09-30-2011, 01:41 PM
NBC Today Show with Anne the sister Mary and the Brother In Law..reported the message on September 30th as
"She saved him, can he save her."
Mrs. Holmes
09-30-2011, 01:42 PM
If it was suicide...
With all Jonah's legal troubles.... being sued in a class action suit.. that was just settled today... did he try suicide at one point and RZ saved him.... but now he can't save her?
justice be served
09-30-2011, 01:47 PM
If it was suicide...
With all Jonah's legal troubles.... being sued in a class action suit.. that was just settled today... did he try suicide at one point and RZ saved him.... but now he can't save her?
BBM I'm certainly not an expert on these things, but I don't think narcissists committing suicide is a common thing. Maybe someone who (unfortunately) has information on this can weigh in on that presumption of mine.
BBM I'm certainly not an expert on these things, but I don't think narcissists committing suicide is a common thing. Maybe someone who (unfortunately) has information on this can weigh in on that presumption of mine.
Not at all common as I posted in the Case for Murder thread.
As far as theories about the writing on the door, I think AZLawyer's theory is best and well stated.
Mrs. Holmes
09-30-2011, 02:40 PM
The class action lawsuit would have added another level of stress to JS, making him in my mind even more likely to snap and kill RZ when your business is threatened and now you are about to lose your son?
It was interesting to note that in the JS address to shareholders he spoke often in the third person.... when speaking about the accident.. " it does make one introspective" ... and then when talking about the future... " I will be in my office..."
Mrs. Holmes
09-30-2011, 02:44 PM
Not at all common as I posted in the Case for Murder thread.
As far as theories about the writing on the door, I think AZLawyer's theory is best and well stated.
Covering a murder to look like suicide or embelishing a murder to make it look like someone other than JONAH did it. This is still my top theory and the reason being is the tying up. PROVE to me this woman KNEW how to tie herself up like that... even if you can show me a website that she went to and learned it that night...or that her and JS had this kind of sex... but they need to back this up.... or suicide does NOT WASH.
Mrs. Holmes
09-30-2011, 02:46 PM
Would JS or his lawyer allow JS to even admit that he had that kind of personal relationship with RZ? It could actually make him a suspect!!
jjenny
09-30-2011, 03:54 PM
BBM I'm certainly not an expert on these things, but I don't think narcissists committing suicide is a common thing. Maybe someone who (unfortunately) has information on this can weigh in on that presumption of mine.
We have zero evidence that JS has ever tried to commit suicide and frankly I agree with you that is an extremely far fetched idea to begin with.
Covering a murder to look like suicide or embelishing a murder to make it look like someone other than JONAH did it. This is still my top theory and the reason being is the tying up. PROVE to me this woman KNEW how to tie herself up like that... even if you can show me a website that she went to and learned it that night...or that her and JS had this kind of sex... but they need to back this up.... or suicide does NOT WASH.
I agree with a lot of what you said. However, the message (to me) makes it look like someone other than Jonah, since I think the "he' is Jonah (unless the message is just truly meaningless) and Jonah wouldn't refer to himself in the third person anymore than Rebecca would. However, I think the bindings could indicate someone WAS trying to make it look like Jonah, Adam (since he is the only other male around), or a random maniac (although we don't have enough information to indicate that one way or the other). Maybe any staging was done so that it definitely looked like a male did this?
curiousjo
09-30-2011, 07:49 PM
I remember reading that JS older son was not there, as he was at chess camp. However, GS was still in town Monday morning. Unclear what time she left town on Monday morning.......I would be surprised if a teen was scheduled for a 6 am flight, as most teens want to sleep in. And why would MS be up at 430-5 am to ride along with JS /GS to the airport, as you have to be there 90 min pre flight - unless private plane then could show up at a bit later.
I've always thought the message had sarcastic overtones. So, that would point towards DS team vs. AS if acted alone to hurt JS vs. Hired hit by Big Pharm vs. JS - if he wanted to throw everyone off and play the pity card. Even works, if RZ upset that the family blaming her for MS death and its suicide - although its really looking like murder these days..... JS packing clothes Monday night then lack of communication to RZ on Tuesday suggesting anger, Woman seen at manson at 10 pm, Twin sister text at 10:45 pm - she just wanted to see if RZ around..., Woman screaming for help at 11:30 PM, JS "missing" midnight call -deleted!, RZ found naked/ bound with sailor knots, AS TEXT(rather than call) to JS re "suicide", JS lack of reaction to text -does not call AS stat or return home, JS/DS air-tight alibies were based on their word, not LE checking out their actions/cell pings, ED MD false belief regarding MS accident during that week. You tie it all togather - looks like murder.
Shame on the LE. RZ family /attorney should demand to be present when any cell phone examination performed. In the mean time, cell should be in 3rd party to prevent further loss of evidence. The LE closed the case, so no need to keep the cell. In addition, RZ computer, clothing, etc should be returned to the family immediately.
deanna82437
10-02-2011, 11:02 AM
18983
http://www.medicis.com/company/AR09.pdf
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/10/01/rebecca-zahau-case-worth-a-thousand-words
Why did they have it painted over? :waitasec:
curiousjo
10-02-2011, 11:10 AM
Snipped Quote: "http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18983"
Great find Deana82437 regarding JS signature (right under out nose):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
JS writes in block letters! He has a unique signature - its not common to sign in block letters. The A is different. S is not defined.
So, door message in block letters. Wonder what the A in SAVE(D) looked like? Not to mention the S, H.
Coincidence or not.........
arielilane
10-02-2011, 11:46 AM
NBC Today Show with Anne the sister Mary and the Brother In Law..reported the message on September 30th as
"She saved him, can he save her."
According to RZ's autopsy report the follow is as:
arielilane
10-02-2011, 11:55 AM
18983
http://www.medicis.com/company/AR09.pdf
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/10/01/rebecca-zahau-case-worth-a-thousand-words
Why did they have it painted over? :waitasec: That isn't really a "signature", it's printed.
arielilane
10-02-2011, 11:58 AM
Great find Deana82437 regarding JS signature (right under out nose):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
JS writes in block letters! He has a unique signature - its not common to sign in block letters. The A is different. S is not defined.
So, door message in block letters. Wonder what the A in SAVE(D) looked like? Not to mention the S, H.
Coincidence or not.........I'm no expert. lol The first thought that came to my mind was he doesn't like to commit.
alexanderdavis
10-02-2011, 12:05 PM
18983
http://www.medicis.com/company/AR09.pdf
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/10/01/rebecca-zahau-case-worth-a-thousand-words
Why did they have it painted over? :waitasec:
I have always thought that the reason the door was painted over was because someone would recognize the letters, the style, etc and maybe there were additional finger prints on the door that needed to be covered up.
Anyways the signature shown on the medicis.com is a very important signature.
Here are the rare "caps" we have been looking for.
Mrs. Holmes
10-02-2011, 12:07 PM
Yes.... but I offer that... if someone with half a brain wanted to "cover" the murder up..
It would be someone with knowledge of how RZ spoke... and that she was a painter... I really like the point that someone made...
Why be cryptic....????
I have to agreee that in RZ's mind... she did try to save Max.. and no one is trying to save her in her pain.....? that does fit suicide.... but to suddenly react in this manner...not just because of Max's death but also because JS is rejecting her and ending the relationship.... her world is essentially over...
LE is so incompetent NOT to have found out exactly what "the message said" if there was one.
The scene strikes me as "very male".... it is setup like a male would kill themselves.. not a woman.... and the note... someone close to her that knows why she might have wanted to kill herself... but did she? In my mind the scene is staged by someone very close to her... and the likeliest person to have had the most intense feelings and could have killed her is JS ... AND the person that knew her best that could "stage" this murder to look like suicide... althought in a "male" way... is JS.....
coastal
10-02-2011, 01:05 PM
Yes.... but I offer that... if someone with half a brain wanted to "cover" the murder up..
It would be someone with knowledge of how RZ spoke... and that she was a painter... I really like the point that someone made...
Why be cryptic....????
I have to agreee that in RZ's mind... she did try to save Max.. and no one is trying to save her in her pain.....? that does fit suicide.... but to suddenly react in this manner...not just because of Max's death but also because JS is rejecting her and ending the relationship.... her world is essentially over...
LE is so incompetent NOT to have found out exactly what "the message said" if there was one.
The scene strikes me as "very male".... it is setup like a male would kill themselves.. not a woman.... and the note... someone close to her that knows why she might have wanted to kill herself... but did she? In my mind the scene is staged by someone very close to her... and the likeliest person to have had the most intense feelings and could have killed her is JS ... AND the person that knew her best that could "stage" this murder to look like suicide... althought in a "male" way... is JS.....
I read on another site that Rebecca didn't do much painting; her friend has said that she preferred to draw and sketch, and she also used pastels. FWIW.
Mrs. Holmes
10-02-2011, 07:03 PM
I thought the message had not been painted over.... just the photo had been photoshopped to hide the message...
Please.... please tell me that they did not actually paint over the door! Why? That is destroying evidence....
Mrs. Holmes
10-02-2011, 07:04 PM
I read on another site that Rebecca didn't do much painting; her friend has said that she preferred to draw and sketch, and she also used pastels. FWIW.
So why not use your sketchpad to write a note and tack it to the door? Out of character for her?
SunnieRN
10-02-2011, 07:52 PM
I thought the message had not been painted over.... just the photo had been photoshopped to hide the message...
Please.... please tell me that they did not actually paint over the door! Why? That is destroying evidence....
Hmmmm, but they would refuse to give the family her phone. 1+1 = ???:waitasec:
Wendy101
10-02-2011, 07:58 PM
That isn't really a "signature", it's printed.
I haven't caught up reading yet, but, I am sure that the message on the door was written in UpperCase letters - same way JS signature....:waitasec:
houndstooth
10-02-2011, 08:29 PM
Yep he's really an insecure dude. The "J" looks so much like an umbrella that it looks like the one in the Travellers Ins ads!
He is not a grounded person at all. Or he is flighty at the very least.
He is determined minded individual though. He uses a lot of pressure, I bet it would have left a mark on the pages underneath, also. This can be a forceful individual, as well.
Yet, he is not particularly good on the follow through. Leaves things unfinished or is prone to mistakes because he is in a hurry. But, at the same time, he used an inordinate amount of spacing between letters which means he was really thinking about what he was signing before he signed it.
That's about it unless there is anything specific to K's and H's I need to brush up on.
Wendy101
10-02-2011, 09:12 PM
I have always thought that the reason the door was painted over was because someone would recognize the letters, the style, etc and maybe there were additional finger prints on the door that needed to be covered up.
Anyways the signature shown on the medicis.com is a very important signature.
Here are the rare "caps" we have been looking for.
Wow! THis has me thinking now...
If JS killed Rebecca surely he is smart enough NOT to use his own style of signature...
Who knows JS well enough to KNOW his style printing? Who would want JS to be blamed, had Rebeccas case turned out to be declared a murder? Who might be madder than a hadder at JS?
Yep he's really an insecure dude. The "J" looks so much like an umbrella that it looks like the one in the Travellers Ins ads!
He is not a grounded person at all. Or he is flighty at the very least.
He is determined minded individual though. He uses a lot of pressure, I bet it would have left a mark on the pages underneath, also. This can be a forceful individual, as well.
Yet, he is not particularly good on the follow through. Leaves things unfinished or is prone to mistakes because he is in a hurry. But, at the same time, he used an inordinate amount of spacing between letters which means he was really thinking about what he was signing before he signed it.
That's about it unless there is anything specific to K's and H's I need to brush up on.
Thank you
Maybe it is just me, but that "S" leaves me feeling a little uneasy or feeling queasy since it barely has any curves to it.
Wow! THis has me thinking now...
If JS killed Rebecca surely he is smart enough NOT to use his own style of signature...
Who knows JS well enough to KNOW his style printing? Who would want JS to be blamed, had Rebeccas case turned out to be declared a murder? Who might be madder than a hadder at JS?
What I was thinking.
Pacific2011
10-02-2011, 10:00 PM
What I was thinking.
Interesting thought! IMOO -- DS could be mad as a hatter at JS.
houndstooth
10-02-2011, 10:29 PM
Thank you
Maybe it is just me, but that "S" leaves me feeling a little uneasy or feeling queasy since it barely has any curves to it.
Yes, it has a definite serpent-like look to it, doesn't it.
Yes, it has a definite serpent-like look to it, doesn't it.
Sssssnake. Oh, Ssssnake!!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI
houndstooth
10-02-2011, 10:38 PM
I am reading over the thoughts about the door. Door to what room?
And if there was something written on it when LE arrived, would they not have taken it down off it's hinges and taken it in for analysis? Or am I off in TV style forensics here?
Not just so that it can be tested, but so that something like it being painted over would not be an option.
justice be served
10-02-2011, 11:07 PM
I am reading over the thoughts about the door. Door to what room?
And if there was something written on it when LE arrived, would they not have taken it down off it's hinges and taken it in for analysis? Or am I off in TV style forensics here?
Not just so that it can be tested, but so that something like it being painted over would not be an option.
According to video on the day of the crime, it appeared that either a large mirror or painting was carried out by LE. I'm not sure anyone on WS thought that item was as large as a door but perhaps it was. The fact is that supposedly the door was painted over and has been lost forever. The photo shown at the PC indicated the door whited out with Photoshop. We have only had reports of what the door may have said and the type of writing it was with black paint. It was the door to the room where Rebecca was found hung over the balcony.
jjenny
10-02-2011, 11:14 PM
What I was thinking.
Since we have no idea what the message on the door looks like, we don't know if it resembles JS's signature in block letters or not.
houndstooth
10-02-2011, 11:21 PM
According to video on the day of the crime, it appeared that either a large mirror or painting was carried out by LE. I'm not sure anyone on WS thought that item was as large as a door but perhaps it was. The fact is that supposedly the door was painted over and has been lost forever. The photo shown at the PC indicated the door whited out with Photoshop. We have only had reports of what the door may have said and the type of writing it was with black paint. It was the door to the room where Rebecca was found hung over the balcony.
Yes, I seem to recall from reading articles at the time, that she was found hanged over the balcony.
Which begs the question then, why does FOX or whichever news outlet posted them, have these photoshopped pictures of a nude body on the grass?
She was not merely cut loose to drop to the ground below. And once she was discovered by authorities, the body would have been in attendance at all times, surrounded by techs, crime scene photographers, detectives, etc.
I looked at them very carefully as posted on the thread, and they do not appear legitimate. I am going back over there now to read what that forum has to say about them.
justice be served
10-02-2011, 11:26 PM
Yes, I seem to recall from reading articles at the time, that she was found hanged over the balcony.
Which begs the question then, why does FOX or whichever news outlet posted them, have these photoshopped pictures of a nude body on the grass?
She was not merely cut loose to drop to the ground below. And once she was discovered by authorities, the body would have been in attendance at all times, surrounded by techs, crime scene photographers, detectives, etc.
I looked at them very carefully as posted on the thread, and they do not appear legitimate. I am going back over there now to read what that forum has to say about them.
Houndstooth, I, too, always thought that very curious. In the helicopter overhead shot, you see Rebecca (poor thing!) laying alone with no one around her. All you can see close by is a first responders medical bag. Thank you for mentioning that as I always thought that very strange indeed. I will say that it was a local news channel helicopter so I don't believe it was a fabricated video. Rebecca also lay there uncovered for over 12 hours and it took the medical examiner many, many hours to get there. LE also had to obtain legal entry (search warrant) to the premises which also took time.
houndstooth
10-02-2011, 11:47 PM
I wish that I could share your confidence on what local or national media will or will not do as regards fabricating of certain aspects of stories, and PHOTOS most assuredly. I have been away from this forum for the last year looking into the media's utilization of the latest advances in REAL TIME VIDEO manipulation software. Now don't that give you pause? And on the not so nefarious end but just down right unethical, the use of tweaking photos for maximum 'shock' value as that is what they think sells news.
A story must be gored up, if it bleeds, it leads and on a slow news day, an entirely fabricated car accident or small plane crash can be ginned up at the press of a few computer keys. That is what we are up against in these times of dwindling ad revenue and the dim view that ad agencies have of the intellect and appeal of the American public. The lines are blurred to a degree where the National Enquirer or Weekly World News is about on par with the MSM.
I am afraid that this has also come to bear on stories of missing people and celebrity stories as well. We are told that many thousands of people go "missing" every year in this country. Are they really? Are they not being reported? Is this just an estimate?
How come we don't have thousands of cases added here then? It is something I am trying to sort out in my own mind.
sorrell skye
10-02-2011, 11:55 PM
Hound - here's the thing: in the News 8 helicopter footage, the balcony doors are closed (News 8 says the footage was captured @ approximately 4:45 p.m. July 13).
Yet, the San Diego Sheriff's Department insists that the balcony doors were open the entire time.
sdcali
10-02-2011, 11:57 PM
I have always thought that the reason the door was painted over was because someone would recognize the letters, the style, etc and maybe there were additional finger prints on the door that needed to be covered up.
Anyways the signature shown on the medicis.com is a very important signature.
Here are the rare "caps" we have been looking for.
YES! I sure hope that LE is looking at these. Since none of us have seen the writing on the door and only what was printed in the AR, simply based on the description, it sure seems like a fit doesn't it?
Only a narcissist would write a message on the door in their own handwriting. If LE thought it was Rebecca's handwriting in their neat and tidy suicide story, they would not even think to check anyone else's handwriting...just like they never followed up on the voicemail message left for Rebecca.
jjenny
10-03-2011, 12:08 AM
Yes, I seem to recall from reading articles at the time, that she was found hanged over the balcony.
Which begs the question then, why does FOX or whichever news outlet posted them, have these photoshopped pictures of a nude body on the grass?
She was not merely cut loose to drop to the ground below. And once she was discovered by authorities, the body would have been in attendance at all times, surrounded by techs, crime scene photographers, detectives, etc.
I looked at them very carefully as posted on the thread, and they do not appear legitimate. I am going back over there now to read what that forum has to say about them.
Those photos are not fake. She was cut down and put on the ground by AS, brother of JS. After that her body was left laying there for hours. Her body was not in attendance the whole time and it was not surrounded by techs, crime scene photographers or detectives. ME didn't even arrive on the scene until hours and hours later.
houndstooth
10-03-2011, 12:12 AM
Hound - here's the thing: in the News 8 helicopter footage, the balcony doors are closed (News 8 says the footage was captured @ approximately 4:45 p.m. July 13).
Yet, the San Diego Sheriff's Department insists that the balcony doors were open the entire time.
Well who to believe here then? I guess I am going to go with LE.
And I am going to say that this video was taken at a DIFFERENT time subsequent to the body having been moved. At a time when the balcony doors were closed an a body photoshopped into the scene. If you zoom out to 200% and 400% the photos can be more readily identified as having a bit more doctoring done than just "blurring" for the sensibilities of the viewers.
As if they care since they are ostensibly showing a 'nude dead body' for heaven's sake. How many lines does that cross? I can't recall another case where that has happened, can you?
It is possible then that LE knows they did so with their blessing. Especially if they are wanting to project the image this was NOT a crime scene.
Do you see any evidence it was being treated as a crime scene as PHOTOGRAPHED? Yeah, me neither.
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 12:14 AM
I am reading over the thoughts about the door. Door to what room?
And if there was something written on it when LE arrived, would they not have taken it down off it's hinges and taken it in for analysis? Or am I off in TV style forensics here?
Not just so that it can be tested, but so that something like it being painted over would not be an option.
You know, I really am not certain that the door ever was taken in to evidence. There is the picture frame/mirror/??? that was taken out that day, the three legged table, the carpet roll. Was the door ever removed? Maybe it wasn't?
houndstooth
10-03-2011, 12:16 AM
Those photos are not fake. She was cut down and put on the ground by AS, brother of JS. After that her body was left laying there for hours. Her body was not in attendance the whole time and it was not surrounded by techs, crime scene photographers or detectives. ME didn't even arrive on the scene until hours and hours later.
That makes no sense at all to me.
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 12:16 AM
Well who to believe here then? I guess I am going to go with LE.
And I am going to say that this video was taken at a DIFFERENT time subsequent to the body having been moved. At a time when the balcony doors were closed an a body photoshopped into the scene. If you zoom out to 200% and 400% the photos can be more readily identified as having a bit more doctoring done than just "blurring" for the sensibilities of the viewers.
As if they care since they are ostensibly showing a 'nude dead body' for heaven's sake. How many lines does that cross? I can't recall another case where that has happened, can you?
It is possible then that LE knows they did so with their blessing. Especially if they are wanting to project the image this was NOT a crime scene.
Do you see any evidence it was being treated as a crime scene as PHOTOGRAPHED? Yeah, me neither.
Houndstooth if you read the autopsy report, Rebecca's body was still on the ground, in the open at 8 pm. This is the reason we are questioning events on the balcony and with the doors on the balcony.
sorrell skye
10-03-2011, 12:17 AM
Well who to believe here then? I guess I am going to go with LE.
And I am going to say that this video was taken at a DIFFERENT time subsequent to the body having been moved. At a time when the balcony doors were closed an a body photoshopped into the scene. If you zoom out to 200% and 400% the photos can be more readily identified as having a bit more doctoring done than just "blurring" for the sensibilities of the viewers.
As if they care since they are ostensibly showing a 'nude dead body' for heaven's sake. How many lines does that cross? I can't recall another case where that has happened, can you?
It is possible then that LE knows they did so with their blessing. Especially if they are wanting to project the image this was NOT a crime scene.
Do you see any evidence it was being treated as a crime scene as PHOTOGRAPHED? Yeah, me neither.
I think LE has been trying to do a CYA by claiming the balcony doors were open the entire time (when they clearly were not), because the crime scene was admittedly contaminated by an LE officer - who stepped onto the balcony & destroyed footprint/shoe print evidence before the crime scene was processed.
jjenny
10-03-2011, 12:17 AM
Well who to believe here then? I guess I am going to go with LE.
And I am going to say that this video was taken at a DIFFERENT time subsequent to the body having been moved. At a time when the balcony doors were closed an a body photoshopped into the scene. If you zoom out to 200% and 400% the photos can be more readily identified as having a bit more doctoring done than just "blurring" for the sensibilities of the viewers.
As if they care since they are ostensibly showing a 'nude dead body' for heaven's sake. How many lines does that cross? I can't recall another case where that has happened, can you?
It is possible then that LE knows they did so with their blessing. Especially if they are wanting to project the image this was NOT a crime scene.
Do you see any evidence it was being treated as a crime scene as PHOTOGRAPHED? Yeah, me neither.
There are LE photos that show one door open or both doors open, so I am not sure going with LE is going to get you anywhere regarding the position of the doors. During the press conference LE claimed the doors were open. Then later on LE claimed one door was open while the other was bolted into the floor. The photos take by LE show it both ways. THey have a photo with one door open and a photo with both doors open. The helicopter footage shows both doors closed.
sdcali
10-03-2011, 12:23 AM
Houndstooth if you read the autopsy report, Rebecca's body was still on the ground, in the open at 8 pm. This is the reason we are questioning events on the balcony and with the doors on the balcony.
AND according to the AR, the ME arrived at 7:15 pm and the guest bedroom had NOT been processed yet by LE.
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 12:24 AM
I think LE has been trying to do a CYA by claiming the balcony doors were open the entire time (when they clearly were not), because the crime scene was admittedly contaminated by an LE officer - who stepped onto the balcony & destroyed footprint/shoe print evidence before the crime scene was processed.
Allegedly contaminated by a LEO. I am not at all sure I believe that any longer. Not unless these officers are put out there untrained, no police academy.
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 12:26 AM
AND according to the AR, the ME arrived at 7:15 pm and the guest bedroom had NOT been processed yet by LE.
Yes, hence the statement by the ME, that they didn't actually examine the rope binding on the bed, but 'looked in to the room' and were satisfied.:waitasec:
jjenny
10-03-2011, 12:26 AM
Allegedly contaminated by a LEO. I am not at all sure I believe that any longer. Not unless these officers are put out there untrained, no police academy.
Coronado police department doesn't even have a homicide unit. I don't think they have much experience with crimes like potential murder.
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 12:28 AM
Coronado police department doesn't even have a homicide unit. I don't think they have much experience with crimes like potential murder.
True, but even at police academy they tell street cop trainees not to contaminate a crime scene. I have a friend who is going to police academy right now.
sorrell skye
10-03-2011, 12:31 AM
Allegedly contaminated by a LEO. I am not at all sure I believe that any longer. Not unless these officers are put out there untrained, no police academy.
LOL - I know what you mean.
But since the SDCSD claims that the boot print on the balcony tiles matched the boot of an LE officer, I take it that LE is admitting that one of their own contaminated the crime scene. I suspect it was the boot print of a Coronado PD officer, since they don't have a homicide unit, and therefore lack training as to how to approach a crime scene.
jjenny
10-03-2011, 12:33 AM
LOL - I know what you mean.
But since the SDCSD claims that the boot print on the balcony tiles matched the boot of an LE officer, I take it that LE is admitting that one of their own contaminated the crime scene. I suspect it was the boot print of a Coronado PD officer, since they don't have a homicide unit, and therefore lack training as to how to approach a crime scene.
Yet amazingly LE managed to leave no DNA on the scene. Or fingerprints.:floorlaugh:
sorrell skye
10-03-2011, 12:37 AM
Yet amazingly LE managed to leave no DNA on the scene. Or fingerprints.:floorlaugh:
Yep - the crime scene bedroom was clean as a whistle. According to LE, the only person that had ever been in there was RZ.
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 12:37 AM
LOL - I know what you mean.
But since the SDCSD claims that the boot print on the balcony tiles matched the boot of an LE officer, I take it that LE is admitting that one of their own contaminated the crime scene. I suspect it was the boot print of a Coronado PD officer, since they don't have a homicide unit, and therefore lack training as to how to approach a crime scene.
If they can use a 6 month old text, to state that Rebecca was depressed, then they can take a frippen picture of the shoe and PROVE it matches. Not hard at all. Until then, I will be a hard head and say that the footprint was alleged to belong to a LEO, who just happened to step on top of a suspects foot print. Convenient, isn't it?:maddening:
houndstooth
10-03-2011, 12:54 AM
I think LE has been trying to do a CYA by claiming the balcony doors were open the entire time (when they clearly were not), because the crime scene was admittedly contaminated by an LE officer - who stepped onto the balcony & destroyed footprint/shoe print evidence before the crime scene was processed.
I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Here's the bottom line for me:
They ruled it a suicide! (Unbelievable) They never treated it as a homicide in the very beginning. If they would have, the brother would be charged with some sort of abuse of a corpse and tampering with evidence. When anybody in their right mind knows you can't hang your own self while hands and feet are bound behind your back! And this would be an open investigation in the normal world.
So I am not at all surprised the media comes out with a video, supposedly AFTER police are called but yet, nobody is near the body, no crime scene tape when at the time they supposedly wouldn't have known that yet.
It is almost like they are saying, see, it wasn't a crime scene to the public.
At least that was my take on the rationale of publishing those pics.
They just didn't pay attention to keeping the details consistent. The report said the balcony was open. It may have been. But, whenever the flyover happened in order to bolster "the nothing to see here folks, just move along", (unless you count the spectacle of a nude body on the ground taken by only ONE news station), "proof of a suicide and not a crime scene", well there you go.
Cuoco7
10-03-2011, 06:37 AM
In the "scene" description of the investigative report, page 2, (I can't link for some reason) it describes the main house and guest house in a confusing manner, and then leads right into discussing the door. They say they found woman's clothing in the guest house and unmade made in one room and then a suitcase in the other and then it sort of leads to door topic. Does anyone know what they are referring to regarding the clothes and guest house. Kind of OT, but the link for the reports was on here.
coastal
10-03-2011, 06:43 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Here's the bottom line for me:
They ruled it a suicide! (Unbelievable) They never treated it as a homicide in the very beginning. If they would have, the brother would be charged with some sort of abuse of a corpse and tampering with evidence. When anybody in their right mind knows you can't hang your own self while hands and feet are bound behind your back! And this would be an open investigation in the normal world.
So I am not at all surprised the media comes out with a video, supposedly AFTER police are called but yet, nobody is near the body, no crime scene tape when at the time they supposedly wouldn't have known that yet.
It is almost like they are saying, see, it wasn't a crime scene to the public.
At least that was my take on the rationale of publishing those pics.
They just didn't pay attention to keeping the details consistent. The report said the balcony was open. It may have been. But, whenever the flyover happened in order to bolster "the nothing to see here folks, just move along", (unless you count the spectacle of a nude body on the ground taken by only ONE news station), "proof of a suicide and not a crime scene", well there you go.
Houndstooth, thank you for your posts analyzing JS's signatures, and thanks especially for your thoughts about the photos/vid of Rebecca taken after she died. Many of us on this forum, and elsewhere, are appalled at the media's lack of sensitivity in publishing these - in real time, for many of us - and at LE's apparently slipshod investigation of such a violent and shocking event. I've never seen anything like it either, and while I pray I'll never see the like again, I cannot forget seeing her. I had complete confidence that (my) local LE would investigate the details competently and quickly, but if they have done so, they have not communicated this to an anxious public. Why?
It doesn't make sense to me, really, that Jonah Shacknai would be able to influence an investigation into such curious and public death, just because he has lots of money and owns an historic home. It doesn't make sense to me that every officer involved with the case - reportedly 15 - is crooked, or lazy, or just too damned stupid to ask basic questions, reach logical conclusions, and communicate effectively.
However, your idea that the media might manipulate an event like Rebecca's death in order to generate revenue...now that makes a horrible kind of sense.
Heaven help us. I'd almost rather have crooked cops.
arielilane
10-03-2011, 09:15 AM
Okay, I suppose it's clear that the message on the door was written in block form. I was not sure about that, I have been unable to stay current, straight and caught up on Rebecca's case. With that said, a certain someone "signs" their name in block print. Speaks volumes! http://www.wuerziworld.de/Smilies/boewu/boewu19.gif grrr...
houndstooth
10-03-2011, 10:38 AM
@ Coastal. Nobody wants to think of the ramifications of this. I have posted a similar type finding on another case here and about another case elsewhere.
Maybe I should flesh this thinking out also. The same helicopter took all the photos, but the quality in those including her body are different. Do you agree?
There is the blurring out supposedly for the sake of propriety.
This is usually done by a round circle of out of focus content. I don't see that round circle or blur. What I see is just the body and not the grass affected. That means the body was singled out. Then I see that her body takes on a skewed appearance that is not easily explained away by camera angles or pov.
So what could be the logical cause? That this image of her body has been lifted from another photo and transferred to a different photograph slide with a background displaying the desired imagery. That being an image projecting the idea that LE just KNEW right away, that there was nothing suspicious about this case. That way they can use that to seem like there was no coverup going on. Unless of course you question not just these photo images, but just about everything else about this case.
What would be less easily dismissed is posting an image where at first LE WAS treating this as a crime scene and then next thing you know, they aren't. Do you follow my reasoning?
jjenny
10-03-2011, 10:40 AM
There is nothing wrong with these photos. They have been taken from the very start of the case. We have been looking at them for months. The reason these photos were taken is that police left her body out in the open for hours and hours. The photos were not taken by LE, they were taken by the news crew flying in the helicopter.
houndstooth
10-03-2011, 10:58 AM
Do you think there was ANY tampering of the image at all? Such as a blurring effect, yes or no?
Strictly speaking if an image or photograph has been tampered with in some way, then it has been effectively changed.
Once an image has been blurred it is more difficult to detect what other changes have been made to the photograph under the guise of blurring to avoid identification.
Are you saying that the images are exactly the way the media in the helicopter took it?
jjenny
10-03-2011, 11:02 AM
Do you think there was ANY tampering of the image at all? Such as a blurring effect, yes or no?
Strictly speaking if an image or photograph has been tampered with in some way, then it has been effectively changed.
Once an image has been blurred it is more difficult to detect what other changes have been made to the photograph under the guise of blurring to avoid identification.
Are you saying that the images are exactly the way the media in the helicopter took it?
They are obviously blurred but the reason that was done-the body was naked. The body was also seen by the neighbors standing on their rooftops. The body was placed in that position by AS and left there for hours. There is no need whatsoever for the news crew to manipulate the position of the body. These photos have been here from the very start of the case, and I've yet to see anyone saying that they are manipulated in any way in addition to blurring which is done to prevent showing of a naked body.
lauriej
10-03-2011, 02:23 PM
You know, I really am not certain that the door ever was taken in to evidence. There is the picture frame/mirror/??? that was taken out that day, the three legged table, the carpet roll. Was the door ever removed? Maybe it wasn't?
..the door was taken, there is no mention of a picture frame or mirror on the S/W inventory.
http://www.10news.com/pdf/29245478/detail.html
----S/W--items removed from mansion---
knife
pair black goves
paper towel w/red stains
box w/paint supplies
Dr. Pepper bottle
Clothing
Flip camera
Basket w/cameras
Stain kit
Clump of hair
Document addressed to Jonah
Tissue w/red stain
Clothing
Hair
Receipt for paint supplies
Candle
Water bottle
Bedding
2 red plastic cups
Underwear
Black latex glove
Table
Greeting card
Paper w/writing
Bedding
Butcher knife
Steak knife
White plastic bag
Rope
Samsung cell phone
Paint brush
Stain kit
Small paint brush
Green & white striped towel
Bedroom door
Tube of black paint
Laptop computer
Mac computer
Olympus camera
Lumix camera
Swab kit
Swab kit
Swab kit
DNA swab
Print cards
sorrell skye
10-03-2011, 03:07 PM
Thank you for looking that up, Lauriej!
Here's what I'm wondering, then: We all saw the photo of the crime scene techs removing what looked like a framed object (perhaps a large picture or mirror). The pic is somewhere around here in one of these threads. The techs were wearing gloves as they carried it, so it must have been seized as potential evidence. The object was too short to have been the door, IMO.
So what was it, and where is it now?
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 03:12 PM
First off, LaurieJ, thank you so much for setting my question straight! But, what is the item on the video, that is much smaller than a bedroom door, covered, that was carried out by two LE agents? I know there is not a mirror listed, but it had to be something. It was covered and the LEO had on evidence gloves.
Do you think there was ANY tampering of the image at all? Such as a blurring effect, yes or no?
Strictly speaking if an image or photograph has been tampered with in some way, then it has been effectively changed.
Once an image has been blurred it is more difficult to detect what other changes have been made to the photograph under the guise of blurring to avoid identification.
Are you saying that the images are exactly the way the media in the helicopter took it?
Houndstooth, there is an insider who posts here, who is trying to obtain pictures from one of the families who's child was taking pictures that day. I am hoping she will be able to do so, now, for two reasons. To see if the doors were in fact open or closed on the balcony, and to see what they were seeing and photographing, if it was not Rebecca's nude body, as they claimed it was.
LEO did not contain the scene, period, whether Rebecca took her own life, or someone else ended it.
I agree with MSM manipulation of incidents and pictures however. I think it is a growing problem, as you say, for revenue purposes. Big problem, as photos are often entered into evidence when a crime is committed.
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 03:15 PM
Thank you for looking that up, Lauriej!
Here's what I'm wondering, then: We all saw the photo of the crime scene techs removing what looked like a framed object (perhaps a large picture or mirror). The pic is somewhere around here in one of these threads. The techs were wearing gloves as they carried it, so it must have been seized as potential evidence. The object was too short to have been the door, IMO.
So what was it, and where is it now?
There is a video around, that was posted recently, when I was looking for the picture of the person loading suitcases from the caretakers cottage. This showed the LEO carrying out the item, smaller than a door.
And by the way, jinx!!:floorlaugh:
sorrell skye
10-03-2011, 03:16 PM
I found the image. It's definitely not the bedroom door, but it's also not listed on the SW inventory.
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/saVbabi
justice be served
10-03-2011, 03:23 PM
I found the image. It's definitely not the bedroom door, but it's also not listed on the SW inventory.
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/saVbabi
Okay, I'm not a seasoned sleuther like you all are - but doesn't everything that was taken from the scene need to be listed on the search warrant. That's a requirement? Did they saw off part of the door? The width seems correct but the length is too short. I say that half-heartedly as compromising the evidence would be a no-no.
Curious Me
10-03-2011, 03:27 PM
Maybe that was an iron-clad door.
lauriej
10-03-2011, 03:31 PM
I found the image. It's definitely not the bedroom door, but it's also not listed on the SW inventory.
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/saVbabi
..good find.
..that's definitely another entry for your list of 20+ questions.
deanna82437
10-03-2011, 03:35 PM
I found the image. It's definitely not the bedroom door, but it's also not listed on the SW inventory.
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/saVbabi
I know we discussed this item previously and whether it might be a mirror. I still see what looks like some sort of frame type that is not covered on the right end. So it's strange if this item is not listed on the SW?
sorrell skye
10-03-2011, 04:01 PM
I know we discussed this item previously and whether it might be a mirror. I still see what looks like some sort of frame type that is not covered on the right end. So it's strange if this item is not listed on the SW?
I agree, Deanna.
I remember the media (forget which outlet) also reported seeing a large painting or mirror being removed from the house.
sorrell skye
10-03-2011, 04:04 PM
I found an article from July 13 that mentions the "painting".
10News reporter Rachel Bianco said that investigators removed an outdoor table with a missing leg, what appeared to be a large painting and a full evidence bag from the home Thursday morning.
http://www.10news.com/news/28534601/detail.html
lauriej
10-03-2011, 04:13 PM
I found an article from July 13 that mentions the "painting".
10News reporter Rachel Bianco said that investigators removed an outdoor table with a missing leg, what appeared to be a large painting and a full evidence bag from the home Thursday morning.
http://www.10news.com/news/28534601/detail.html
..here it's referred to it as a picture frame or mirror.
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/investigators-remove-evidence-from-the-spreckels-mansion#photo-7000853
Officials from the San Diego County Sheriff's Department's (http://www.sdsheriff.net/) homicide unit were seen carrying two brown paper bags from the oceanfront residence in the morning, along with a three-legged table and a mirror or a picture frame.
..it's definitely something, and it's definitely not listed on the S/W as it should be.
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 04:13 PM
I found an article from July 13 that mentions the "painting".
10News reporter Rachel Bianco said that investigators removed an outdoor table with a missing leg, what appeared to be a large painting and a full evidence bag from the home Thursday morning.
http://www.10news.com/news/28534601/detail.html
Amazing find Sorrell and LaurieJ, thank you so much!!
sorrell skye
10-03-2011, 04:18 PM
So now we have two media sources that reported seeing a large framed object (painting or mirror) being removed from the residence.
Hmmmm... where is this object now, and why wasn't it listed on the SW inventory?
ETA: Perhaps it was listed in another search warrant - the one related to MS? Guess where I'm off to? Ha!
sorrell skye
10-03-2011, 04:39 PM
Okay - I just checked SW #41290 (the SW related to MS, which was executed by Officer Adkins, on 7/15/11 @ 11:10 p.m.) and there is no mention on the inventory list of a large framed painting or mirror.
coastal
10-03-2011, 05:26 PM
Okay. This is total speculation on my part, so take it for what its worth.
Callie posted a terrific link yesterday in the "photos only" thread (thank you Callie!) to 88 pictures of the house. I didn't see a date for them, but they look like a marketing campaign by a realtor. The photos are all beautiful (but WHAT is with that salmon-colored kitchen???) and very interesting. Love that chair on the stair landing...
While I can't say for sure which room is what, the photos seem to progress through the house in a logical way. Number 51 looks like "the" bedroom; the door matches the one LE showed us; there is a white wicker chair, and the French doors are clearly shown. The next two pictures show the view from the Juliette balcony (:eek:).
Photo 83, apparently a room in the guest house, shows an artist's easel supporting what looks to me to be an unfinished canvas.
Now go back to photo #44, the "blue" bedroom. Here is "the" bed, and another white wicker chair. See that painting, of a nude, sitting woman with long black hair? It looks like the right size to match the covered item LE removed as evidence.
Again, I don't know if I'm right about any of this, but go see what you think.
http://www.previewfirst.com/mls/photos/1349
stilettos
10-03-2011, 05:40 PM
All i can say about the pics is that butt loads of money doesn't buy taste.:floorlaugh:
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 05:40 PM
Okay. This is total speculation on my part, so take it for what its worth.
Callie posted a terrific link yesterday in the "photos only" thread (thank you Callie!) to 88 pictures of the house. I didn't see a date for them, but they look like a marketing campaign by a realtor. The photos are all beautiful (but WHAT is with that salmon-colored kitchen???) and very interesting. Love that chair on the stair landing...
While I can't say for sure which room is what, the photos seem to progress through the house in a logical way. Number 51 looks like "the" bedroom; the door matches the one LE showed us; there is a white wicker chair, and the French doors are clearly shown. The next two pictures show the view from the Juliette balcony (:eek:).
Photo 83, apparently a room in the guest house, shows an artist's easel supporting what looks to me to be an unfinished canvas.
Now go back to photo #44, the "blue" bedroom. Here is "the" bed, and another white wicker chair. See that painting, of a nude, sitting woman with long black hair? It looks like the right size to match the covered item LE removed as evidence.
Again, I don't know if I'm right about any of this, but go see what you think.
http://www.previewfirst.com/mls/photos/1349
Wowzers!! It most certainly is the right size. Hmmm.
deanna82437
10-03-2011, 05:48 PM
Okay. This is total speculation on my part, so take it for what its worth.
Callie posted a terrific link yesterday in the "photos only" thread (thank you Callie!) to 88 pictures of the house. I didn't see a date for them, but they look like a marketing campaign by a realtor. The photos are all beautiful (but WHAT is with that salmon-colored kitchen???) and very interesting. Love that chair on the stair landing...
While I can't say for sure which room is what, the photos seem to progress through the house in a logical way. Number 51 looks like "the" bedroom; the door matches the one LE showed us; there is a white wicker chair, and the French doors are clearly shown. The next two pictures show the view from the Juliette balcony (:eek:).
Photo 83, apparently a room in the guest house, shows an artist's easel supporting what looks to me to be an unfinished canvas.
Now go back to photo #44, the "blue" bedroom. Here is "the" bed, and another white wicker chair. See that painting, of a nude, sitting woman with long black hair? It looks like the right size to match the covered item LE removed as evidence.
Again, I don't know if I'm right about any of this, but go see what you think.
http://www.previewfirst.com/mls/photos/1349
I agree the size of the picture looks right and that sure looks like the same bed and wicker chair.. It would certainly be interesting to know a date when these pics were taken.
All i can say about the pics is that butt loads of money doesn't buy taste.:floorlaugh:
That's an understatement! Per the decorating....wth?
coastal
10-03-2011, 07:38 PM
That's an understatement! Per the decorating....wth?
LOL that was my first thought, too; it looks like somebody 100 years old lives there, and still has the same stuff they started with! If you look a little closer, you will see some quality stuff (is that a Monet over the fireplace? http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/konfus/c035.gif) but I do think a lot of the furnishings like a rental, which I suppose makes some sense. And they probably are trying to stay "period" with the color scheme...at least, I hope so.
Morag
10-03-2011, 08:01 PM
All i can say about the pics is that butt loads of money doesn't buy taste.:floorlaugh:
These pictures are from before JS bought it. And the previous sale IIRC was in 1983(?). And in the 1980's, this was fabulous taste!
PS And if that is a picture of a nekkid lady, she is probably getting her senior discounts at the local theater by now. Can't be RZ.
SunnieRN
10-03-2011, 08:01 PM
LOL that was my first thought, too; it looks like somebody 100 years old lives there, and still has the same stuff they started with! If you look a little closer, you will see some quality stuff (is that a Monet over the fireplace? http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/konfus/c035.gif) but I do think a lot of the furnishings like a rental, which I suppose makes some sense. And they probably are trying to stay "period" with the color scheme...at least, I hope so.
Coastal,I am impressed as you are very VERY diplomatic!!!:floorlaugh:
TorisMom003
10-03-2011, 08:23 PM
I would have to say that the house was bought furnished for 2 reasons. 1. it is a summer home. 2. there is still furniture in the home that are in those photos such as the bed in the guest bedroom during Rebecca's death, it was in another room when bought (the house) and moved to that guest room.
I honestly hope that the gaudy, ugly purple dining room table was promptly taken out of the home before Jonah and family stayed for any period of time. I can not believe that that table was ever "in style".
Curious Me
10-03-2011, 11:17 PM
Okay. This is total speculation on my part, so take it for what its worth.
Callie posted a terrific link yesterday in the "photos only" thread (thank you Callie!) to 88 pictures of the house. I didn't see a date for them, but they look like a marketing campaign by a realtor. The photos are all beautiful (but WHAT is with that salmon-colored kitchen???) and very interesting. Love that chair on the stair landing...
While I can't say for sure which room is what, the photos seem to progress through the house in a logical way. Number 51 looks like "the" bedroom; the door matches the one LE showed us; there is a white wicker chair, and the French doors are clearly shown. The next two pictures show the view from the Juliette balcony (:eek:).
Photo 83, apparently a room in the guest house, shows an artist's easel supporting what looks to me to be an unfinished canvas.
Now go back to photo #44, the "blue" bedroom. Here is "the" bed, and another white wicker chair. See that painting, of a nude, sitting woman with long black hair? It looks like the right size to match the covered item LE removed as evidence.
Again, I don't know if I'm right about any of this, but go see what you think.
http://www.previewfirst.com/mls/photos/1349
Thanks for pointing out things. I got chills seeing these pics. The bed, and yes, the nude that has a posture that reminds me of ankles bound and arms behind. Why would LE take that painting? They say no painting, no mirror, just a door. :waitasec:
lauriej
10-03-2011, 11:26 PM
So now we have two media sources that reported seeing a large framed object (painting or mirror) being removed from the residence.
Hmmmm... where is this object now, and why wasn't it listed on the SW inventory?
..i realize they can't pack up the entire house and take everything---but, given that detective patterson asks for 'items that could cause blunt force trauma'-------why on earth did they not take that dog chew toy that was right there ( those things are seriously solid.)--and could have caused the 4 subgaleal hemorrhages to her scalp that M.E. lucas omitted bringing up at all at the PC..
--and----the largest piece of evidence in the "crime room"----the over-turned chair and blanket??
..and then they DO take something..(the picture frame/mirror) and fail to itemize it on the S/W.
..and do they wonder why we doubt their "iron-clad" closed case?
Truthwillsetufree
10-03-2011, 11:41 PM
Okay. This is total speculation on my part, so take it for what its worth.
Callie posted a terrific link yesterday in the "photos only" thread (thank you Callie!) to 88 pictures of the house. I didn't see a date for them, but they look like a marketing campaign by a realtor. The photos are all beautiful (but WHAT is with that salmon-colored kitchen???) and very interesting. Love that chair on the stair landing...
While I can't say for sure which room is what, the photos seem to progress through the house in a logical way. Number 51 looks like "the" bedroom; the door matches the one LE showed us; there is a white wicker chair, and the French doors are clearly shown. The next two pictures show the view from the Juliette balcony (:eek:).
Photo 83, apparently a room in the guest house, shows an artist's easel supporting what looks to me to be an unfinished canvas.
Now go back to photo #44, the "blue" bedroom. Here is "the" bed, and another white wicker chair. See that painting, of a nude, sitting woman with long black hair? It looks like the right size to match the covered item LE removed as evidence.
Again, I don't know if I'm right about any of this, but go see what you think.
http://www.previewfirst.com/mls/photos/1349
BBM - That Salmon color in the kitchen (actually, it is a butler's pantry, not a kitchen) was one of the top colors in the 80's, matter of fact, it appears that the whole house was decorated in the 80's and has not had any updates whatsoever in 20 years.
The chair (FWIW) on the stair landing is a McKenzie Childs chair.
JMO but the nude picture was probably placed on that wall in the 80's as it appears nothing from the last 2 decades has entered or for that matter been removed from this house.JMO.
coastal
10-03-2011, 11:58 PM
BBM - That Salmon color in the kitchen (actually, it is a butler's pantry, not a kitchen) was one of the top colors in the 80's, matter of fact, it appears that the whole house was decorated in the 80's and has not had any updates whatsoever in 20 years.
The chair (FWIW) on the stair landing is a McKenzie Childs chair.
JMO but the nude picture was probably placed on that wall in the 80's as it appears nothing from the last 2 decades has entered or for that matter been removed from this house.JMO.
Thank you for the info about the chair! I do love it! I'm afraid my style in the 80s was "early American college dorm", so I probably shouldn't be critical...
Edited to add: OMG! Just went to McKenzie-Childs website! What a wonderful place! If I disappear from here, I fell in over there - thanks again!
http://www.mackenzie-childs.com/Furniture/
Truthwillsetufree
10-04-2011, 12:49 AM
Thank you for the info about the chair! I do love it! I'm afraid my style in the 80s was "early American college dorm", so I probably shouldn't be critical...
Edited to add: OMG! Just went to McKenzie-Childs website! What a wonderful place! If I disappear from here, I fell in over there - thanks again!
http://www.mackenzie-childs.com/Furniture/
I loved the 80's!!!!!!!
stilettos
10-04-2011, 09:09 AM
These pictures are from before JS bought it. And the previous sale IIRC was in 1983(?). And in the 1980's, this was fabulous taste!
PS And if that is a picture of a nekkid lady, she is probably getting her senior discounts at the local theater by now. Can't be RZ.
No idea to whom that purple dining table would be fabulous taste in the 80's. I remember the 80's well and have been in some fine homes...but really...uhm..reminds me of the Palm Beach mansions that were decorated shabbily and then the owners lost their shirts and just lived with what they had for 30-40 years. It is unique...would love to know who the actual decorator was.
steff13
10-04-2011, 09:51 AM
No idea to whom that purple dining table would be fabulous taste in the 80's. I remember the 80's well and have been in some fine homes...but really...uhm..reminds me of the Palm Beach mansions that were decorated shabbily and then the owners lost their shirts and just lived with what they had for 30-40 years. It is unique...would love to know who the actual decorater was.
I'm pretty sure it was Blanche from The Golden Girls. :crazy:
jjenny
10-04-2011, 10:50 AM
There has to be a reason police refused to show us (the public) this message.
It can not be what it said, since that information is now public (albeit in several different variations) so I suspect it is the way the letters look.
Can't the press sue for its release? They got search warrants released. But still no 911 calls?
justice be served
10-04-2011, 12:28 PM
FYI. I just posted the HinkyMeter article on the message on the door article published October 1, 2011 in the reference forum. I didn't see it there.
sorrell skye
10-04-2011, 12:55 PM
Remember when we were discussing how the message on the door *ran outside* the border of the panel? Not that we can see the message itself, but the area of whiteout that was photoshopped over the message gives us a good idea of where the message begins & where it ends on the door.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/doora.jpg
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html
Compare the whited-out message on the door above with the signature below. IMO, the two are strikingly similar, in that they both "run off the page", so to speak. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19016&thumb=1&d=1317709927
RZ was somewhat of an artist. An artist (even an amateur one) learns how to make good use of the drawing surface, and learns how to gauge where to apply the first mark (to avoid having to erase or start over). I took drawing classes back in my college years, and this was one of the skills we practiced.
I think if RZ had painted the message on the door, IMO, she would have painted the message inside the borders of the panel, because she would have started further to the left, and she would have instinctively known (as an artist) how large or small to make her strokes so that the message would have "fit" the surface. MOO
houndstooth
10-04-2011, 01:13 PM
First off, LaurieJ, thank you so much for setting my question straight! But, what is the item on the video, that is much smaller than a bedroom door, covered, that was carried out by two LE agents? I know there is not a mirror listed, but it had to be something. It was covered and the LEO had on evidence gloves.
Houndstooth, there is an insider who posts here, who is trying to obtain pictures from one of the families who's child was taking pictures that day. I am hoping she will be able to do so, now, for two reasons. To see if the doors were in fact open or closed on the balcony, and to see what they were seeing and photographing, if it was not Rebecca's nude body, as they claimed it was.
LEO did not contain the scene, period, whether Rebecca took her own life, or someone else ended it.
I agree with MSM manipulation of incidents and pictures however. I think it is a growing problem, as you say, for revenue purposes. Big problem, as photos are often entered into evidence when a crime is committed.
Yes, it is a problem, and one I have only in the last several months become aware of.
Without some sort of background knowledge of how the media is using this info to manipulate outcomes and events and the public's perception, it can seem totally out of left field.
We can only hope that there are enough experts in the field to counter the photo manipulation possible prior to their being entered as evidence.
Here is the real time video manipulation software I mentioned in a prior post.
The incredible world of Diminished Reality - YouTube
alexanderdavis
10-04-2011, 01:15 PM
Remember when we were discussing how the message on the door *ran outside* the border of the panel? Not that we can see the message itself, but the area of whiteout that was photoshopped over the message gives us a good idea of where the message begins & where it ends on the door.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/doora.jpg
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html
Compare the whited-out message on the door above with the signature below. IMO, the two are strikingly similar, in that they both "run off the page", so to speak. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19016&thumb=1&d=1317709927
RZ was somewhat of an artist. An artist (even an amateur one) learns how to make good use of the drawing surface, and learns how to gauge where to apply the first mark (to avoid having to erase or start over). I took drawing classes back in my college years, and this was one of the skills we practiced.
I think if RZ had painted the message on the door, IMO, she would have painted the message inside the borders of the panel, because she would have started further to the left, and she would have instinctively known (as an artist) how large or small to make her strokes so that the message would have "fit" the surface. MOO
I agree,
It is a very strange place to start writing your message. Why start several inches in and then run over the border...unless you have never done anything creative in your life!!!
houndstooth
10-04-2011, 01:31 PM
I've seen those type of panel doors and they are not overly large.
That seems like a lot of words to fit in such a small area, even with going outside the margins, doesn't it? So when they ran over the with the first line, they didn't start farther over with the next. Surely all that wasn't supposed to have been written in one line?
I agree with the symmetry issues of a trained artist writing something like that.
Morag
10-04-2011, 02:02 PM
No idea to whom that purple dining table would be fabulous taste in the 80's. I remember the 80's well and have been in some fine homes...but really...uhm..reminds me of the Palm Beach mansions that were decorated shabbily and then the owners lost their shirts and just lived with what they had for 30-40 years. It is unique...would love to know who the actual decorator was.
I wonder if the purple table is chinoiserie- and the original finish, black or red, perhaps, was changed to purple to 'fit in' with the 80s color palate. The interior decorators prayer is, ' please let people with money have good taste, and please let people with good taste have money.' Unanswered prayers in this case! I seem to remember seeing some other interior pix of the mansion with some different decor...
TorisMom003
10-04-2011, 03:18 PM
At one point in time the media had released the videos without the "blurring" of Rebecca. Or am I just imagining that I saw that? If that is the case, then it would make sense that the videos are in fact true and that the "blurring" was done after the fact.
coastal
10-04-2011, 06:39 PM
At one point in time the media had released the videos without the "blurring" of Rebecca. Or am I just imagining that I saw that? If that is the case, then it would make sense that the videos are in fact true and that the "blurring" was done after the fact.
You are not imagining that. They did initially show her body without the blur.
lauriej
10-05-2011, 01:27 AM
I found the image. It's definitely not the bedroom door, but it's also not listed on the SW inventory.
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/saVbabi
..i came across another large item being removed from the mansion..
( i don't think it's the same as the one you have linked in your post?? this one appears to be smaller..)--is the other one wrapped in white paper behind the guy in the tan pants waiting to be carried off?
..whatever it is----it is not the bedroom door that's listed on the S/W --and it's not on the S/W inventory...
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/lauriejcampbell/pictureremoved.jpg
IWannaKnow
10-05-2011, 03:01 AM
Seems like we need a "not on the search warrant" parade!
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery
Photo #8? Too short for the door IMO.
How about that roll of carpet?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/07/woman-found-hanging-at-spreckels-mansion-wasnt-depressed-family-says.html
Didn't see that listed anywhere on the SW.
That is quite a few items removed which were not on SW IIRC. And the potted tree on the landing WAS on the SW but wasn't taken. Hmmm.
That picture in the blue flowered bedroom I bet got moved to the guest room with the bed. The red blanket she is sitting upon would match the rest of the theme in the room. The colors for the room may have been chosen from that picture. It does appear to be the size of at least one of the mystery SW items. FWIW there was already a wicker chair and table in the room. AND where did the photo that showed the overturned chair on SDSO go? Am I losing my mind again?
I liked the dining table....almost the only thing in the house I did like, but I liked it.Needs the right setting and a different color. "Miami Vice" please come get your mansion!
lauriej
10-05-2011, 03:24 AM
AND where did the photo that showed the overturned chair on SDSO go? Am I losing my mind again?
..you're right-----the over-turned chair pic is not there...
..fortunately i saved a pic of it....http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/lauriejcampbell/ropeandbalconydoorsclosed.jpg
( and my one daughter would fight you for that purple table...)
IWannaKnow
10-05-2011, 03:44 AM
Thank you lauriej. I knew it was there. Guess they didn't like that controversy so just took the picture down? Doors open, doors closed....who cares? What does that really matter? Overturned chair? Poo-poo. There is no boogie man here....go back to sleep. :slap: Don't worry, Officer Onefoot is taking good care of the crime scene. :doh:
:back:
deanna82437
10-05-2011, 11:25 AM
..you're right-----the over-turned chair pic is not there...
..fortunately i saved a pic of it....http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/lauriejcampbell/ropeandbalconydoorsclosed.jpg
( and my one daughter would fight you for that purple table...)
lauriej, the pic is still there on the Powerpoint presentation of RZ's "suicide" .. it's on page 15.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf
I've seen those type of panel doors and they are not overly large.
That seems like a lot of words to fit in such a small area, even with going outside the margins, doesn't it? So when they ran over the with the first line, they didn't start farther over with the next. Surely all that wasn't supposed to have been written in one line?
I agree with the symmetry issues of a trained artist writing something like that.
I think it seems like a lot of words too, especially using a flat brush like that. The paint still blobbing on the brush (see pic) makes it look like the flat wide side was used also. I suspect those doors are less than 30" wide, maybe more like 24" ... 30" is the standard modern day door. The brush looks like about a 1/2" brush.
The first line of the message has about 11 letters and 2 spaces, plus any space between letters. Second line 12 letters and 3 spaces... someone would have to try it, but looks to me like that is about 20-22" for line #1, more for line #2. this doesn't quite fit with the whited out on the door (maybe 18") so someone really pinched that lettering together?
Was there another, smaller brush used?
(http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_rebecca_zahau_jp_110902_main.jpg)
I have a 1/2" brush here.... using it dry, it seems the 18" space is doable with a stiff brush.
lauriej
10-05-2011, 04:41 PM
Was there another, smaller brush used?
(http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_rebecca_zahau_jp_110902_main.jpg)
..the smaller brush is shown in this evidence pic----it doesn't appear to have any black paint on it.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8749.jpg
stilettos
10-05-2011, 04:45 PM
Thank you lauriej. I knew it was there. Guess they didn't like that controversy so just took the picture down? Doors open, doors closed....who cares? What does that really matter? Overturned chair? Poo-poo. There is no boogie man here....go back to sleep. :slap: Don't worry, Officer Onefoot is taking good care of the crime scene. :doh:
:back:
All I have to say is: If I am ever killed in suspicious circumstances....DO NOT send these people to investigate my death. I would just love to have a few of these LEO for coffee and ask a few pointed questions....like this is the best you've got? Really? WTH? Thank you. that is all.
SunnieRN
10-05-2011, 05:09 PM
Thank you lauriej. I knew it was there. Guess they didn't like that controversy so just took the picture down? Doors open, doors closed....who cares? What does that really matter? Overturned chair? Poo-poo. There is no boogie man here....go back to sleep. :slap: Don't worry, Officer Onefoot is taking good care of the crime scene. :doh:
:back:
:floorlaugh: Great post I WnnaKnow!! And Stilettos, agreed! Please do not let them investigate any death within the circle of people I know and love.
justice be served
10-06-2011, 11:46 AM
Shouldn't the actual photo of the message on the door be a part of the case files that Anne Bremner will soon be receiving? If there isn't one, then that would make no sense at all.
..the smaller brush is shown in this evidence pic----it doesn't appear to have any black paint on it.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8749.jpg
Hmmm...
I'd be curious for a trial with a brush just like Rebecca used, the 1/2" one with the same Amsterdam paint. That paint is touted as having a thick consistency and is quick drying.
http://www.dickblick.com/products/amsterdam-standard-series-acrylic/
Is the paint on the larger brush dry? Stuck to the carpet?
Would that paint drip onto the carpet like in the pic you linked? I'm not sure I can see this as transfer from a foot or something, maybe from dropping the brush?
There's no type of palette used, so is there paint under that tube shown?
What was there explanation for the white plastic garbage bag being there and did they fingerprint it? Did they fingerprint the paint tube and brushes?
Like someone already said, plus, I believe ValHall talked about the paint on her body ... seems odd where the paint is at especially in comparison to the paint on the door and the one paint brush we can see has paint on it. I really don't see how that brush doesn't have any paint on the handle either as Val points out.
She’s right handed she’s slipping a noose over her neck, wrapping a t-shirt around that and accidentally brushes her right hand against her left breast leaving the black paint mark near her left nipple. The autopsy report states she had black paint on her right hand (ring fingernail, BASE of index finger, and a large area, 2 x 1 inch, at the base of her right thumb – which, if you look at the paintbrush, I’d like you to explain why an artist would get all this paint all over her. The crime scene photograph (http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8714.jpg) of the big paintbrush used to write the message does not show a big blobby mess of paint all over the handle of the brush.)
Val goes on to point out more (minor paraphrasing):
Paint near the right nipple area
No paint on the left hand, paint on right hand
No black paint on the ankle bindings or the ligature
Paint on the middle binding of the wrist bindings, on the left wrist
Paint on the 22 inch segment of the rope that extends from the knot of the ligature around her neck.
No paint on the tshirt
Yeah, how do you get 2 x 1 inch area of paint on you with a 1/2 brush?
Val goes on to ask "And how did she put the ligature around her neck and not get any paint on it, but end up getting it on the “knot tail”? Could it be that the paint on the knot tail was transferred to the tail when it brushed against Rebecca’s right hand after she was bound?"
I'd like to see pictures of all the paint on Rebecca and the rope, especially to rule out that something wasn't missing from the crime scene and to see how the paint was deposited on her (swipe, drop, brush, etc.).
Maybe some of you have already talked about this, but is the red rope in this picture connected to something?
deanna82437
10-06-2011, 02:51 PM
Maybe some of you have already talked about this, but is the red rope in this picture connected to something?
I think the rope is going out to the balcony. It almost appears to be attached to the door knob, but a zoom in reveals this.
19044
lauriej
10-06-2011, 02:53 PM
..you can also see the rope attached to the bed going out toward the balcony in this pic....with the door showing in the right side of the pic.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8671.jpg
..you can also see the rope attached to the bed going out toward the balcony in this pic....with the door showing in the right side of the pic.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8671.jpg
Thanks ... I'm having a difficult time placing the furniture in that room in regard to the balcony door. There are shutters on the window and the rope looked like it went toward the window to me. I do see the shutter in the first pic goes all the way to the floor - I guess the balcony doors have a shade behind the shutter.
lauriej
10-06-2011, 04:21 PM
Thanks ... I'm having a difficult time placing the furniture in that room in regard to the balcony door. There are shutters on the window and the rope looked like it went toward the window to me. I do see the shutter in the first pic goes all the way to the floor - I guess the balcony doors have a shade behind the shutter.
..there's a diagram of the room in this one:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg
Morag
10-06-2011, 04:56 PM
And another thing- why are all the pictures released such extreme closeups? A broader view of that bedroom, etc, would be much more meaningful.
..there's a diagram of the room in this one:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg
Oh, doh! I should not be posting today. I've looked right at the page that over and over and never checked it.
And another thing- why are all the pictures released such extreme closeups? A broader view of that bedroom, etc, would be much more meaningful.
Yes! And, the room itself is odd dimensions ~ 9 x18.5'. I don't think anyone could pick a longer distance to run a rope out of a room and over the edge of a balcony than that unless it was from the neighbors house! I know this has been discussed probably ad nauseam, but hanging yourself from an object that takes 14+ feet of rope just to get to the edge of the balcony is ridiculous.
Plus, it's difficult to put the balcony rope, footprints and angle of the rope from the bed into one picture.
The rope going over the edge of the balcony in the pictures has been moved significantly to the right (when looking from inside) by the SDSO. I can't see this any other way because there is no dust displaced under the rope as it is showing. We never see the original placement going from inside the house to the balcony edge.
If you jumped over that balcony at the angle/diagonal SDSO shows, I'd think the pull on the rope would naturally be towards the right (again looking from the inside) and would scrape off the dust. They didn't claim this though as far as I know.
I'm hoping the attorney gets all the evidence including photos s
Cuoco7
10-07-2011, 01:35 AM
Does anyone think that this room was chosen so that AS would be the one to find her?
jjenny
10-07-2011, 01:38 AM
Does anyone think that this room was chosen so that AS would be the one to find her?
He would have been the one to find her regardless, since nobody else was there.
Cuoco7
10-07-2011, 06:24 AM
He would have been the one to find her regardless, since nobody else was there.
If she did this in the main house, possibly not. He would have left that morning for his coffee with no reason to enter house. I believe that room, whoever is responsible, was chosen on purpose.
jjenny
10-07-2011, 08:49 AM
If she did this in the main house, possibly not. He would have left that morning for his coffee with no reason to enter house. I believe that room, whoever is responsible, was chosen on purpose.
I believe he was going to get his coffee from the main house. Furthermore RN was driving him around. How was he going to leave without her?
Maybe Rebecca's family is entitled to Jonah's door since they proclaimed her death a suicide...
http://law.onecle.com/california/government/27464.html
Whenever the death of any person shall have been referred to
the coroner for investigation, there shall be delivered to the
coroner any note, letter or other document apparently written by the
deceased which may tend to indicate an intention by the writer to
take the writer's life, including directions for disposition of
property or disposal of remains. A facsimile copy thereof shall be
placed in the coroner's records, and, if an inquest be held, a true
copy shall be read into the record and transcribed into the notes of
the official stenographer. Upon completion of legal proceedings
arising from such death, the original instrument shall be delivered
by the coroner to the addressee or to the legal representative of the
estate of the decedent; provided, however, that if the instrument
purports to be testamentary in nature, it shall be filed with the
clerk of the court as provided by law.
California Evidence Code Section 250 (http://law.onecle.com/california/evidence/250.html)
"Writing" means handwriting, typewriting, printing,
photostating, photographing, photocopying, transmitting by electronic
mail or facsimile, and every other means of recording upon any
tangible thing, any form of communication or representation,
including letters, words, pictures, sounds, or symbols, or
combinations thereof, and any record thereby created, regardless of
the manner in which the record has been stored.
Maybe Rebecca's family is entitled to Jonah's door since they proclaimed her death a suicide...
http://law.onecle.com/california/government/27464.html
why? door was painted over by JS.
why? door was painted over by JS.
Interesting quandary of who it belonged to if they claim Rebecca wrote it ... perhaps the door shouldn't have been returned to him, eh? What if he owned a piece of paper that she wrote a note on related to her death. Would he be able to claim he then owned the note?
Morag
10-07-2011, 06:52 PM
why? door was painted over by JS.
We're not really sure that the door was painted over. The pictures of the door have been photoshopped to give that appearance. By now, the door may very well have been refinished and painted. On the other hand, we have no idea why the actual appearance of the door was kept secret from the public.
We're not really sure that the door was painted over. The pictures of the door have been photoshopped to give that appearance. By now, the door may very well have been refinished and painted. On the other hand, we have no idea why the actual appearance of the door was kept secret from the public.
I read it in a news article that JS asked SDSO for permission to paint over the message and they granted him permission to do so. I wish I had saved the link.
Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2011, 07:59 PM
I read it in a news article that JS asked SDSO for permission to paint over the message and they granted him permission to do so. I wish I had saved the link.
Wow.... what? really why bother? Who would want that door in their home painted over? Unless you wanted to hid the fact you painted it yourself in your block letter style!!! If that is true LE are beiing PAID
:furious:
IMO
lauriej
10-07-2011, 08:44 PM
I read it in a news article that JS asked SDSO for permission to paint over the message and they granted him permission to do so. I wish I had saved the link.
..the bedroom door itself was taken into evidence on july 13th.
..i have to doubt that jonah got back evidence, to paint over.
SunnieRN
10-07-2011, 09:34 PM
Sp this may be neither here or there, but, even if Jonah had the door back, even if the door had been repainted, I am sure that SDSO took photographs of the door.
Since Bremner is getting the case files for the family, hopefully there is a picture, or more, of the door.
I think it will be VERY interesting to see the style of lettering on the door. Especially when it is compared to a certain signature!!
dovebar
10-07-2011, 09:39 PM
Wow.... what? really why bother? Who would want that door in their home painted over? Unless you wanted to hid the fact you painted it yourself in your block letter style!!! If that is true LE are beiing PAID
:furious:
IMO
Yes, this seems very telling. If you're a multi-millionaire, wouldn't you go out and get another door delivered that same day? Wouldn't you want that door out of the house? Painting over says to me, the message did its job to make her seem crazy (ala Jeffrey McDonald and his staged scene), and now let's paint over it.
The choice of the balcony seems to me to have something to do with "displaying" her body for public humiliation. She could easily have hung herself in the garage or a private place. Someone wanted not only to strip her and scare her but to humiliate her in death.
arielilane
10-07-2011, 10:16 PM
There were easier ways to commit sucide. The way RZ was found reflect staging. I don't buy the suicide theory. It was too much work for a person with suicidal tendencies. Speaks volumes of staging.
There were other options as follows:
Hang oneself in any of the 10 bathroom shower stalls (*may not be full baths) or any of the many closet racks located in the home.
Drown oneself in the ocean or in any of the 10 bathtubs *
Firearm
Pills
Mix pills with alcohol
Carbon monoxide poisoning
Conclusion
Jumping out of a window with the following preparations resulting in elaborate staging.
tying rope to a bedpost
message on door/paint
nude
bound hands and feet with rope
duct tape
gag oneself
Did I miss anything?
dovebar
10-07-2011, 11:38 PM
Just that women disproportionately commit suicide by pills. Not in these elaborate ways.
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