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deanna82437
09-16-2011, 01:14 PM
Regarding the scooter... I do find it interesting that the reenactment provided by LE in how Maxie supposedly fell does not include the scooter. If they think he was riding it, do you all think they would have included that in their reenactment? Because either the scooter went with him over the railing or the scooter happened to be downstairs, maybe propped against the railing and happened to land on Maxie after he fell.

I am NOT saying that I believe this-- but based on the autopsy (sorry I cannot read it, too horrible for me to read), do you think he could have been pushed over the railing? Or do you think he would need momentum to fall in the way LE says he did?

I feel the same way about the autopsy chasing.halos. To my mind the theory about his fall posted at the Hinky Meter, makes much more sense than what they described in their Powerpoint depiction. But then, will we ever know?

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

ehough22
09-16-2011, 01:15 PM
I am unsure of the whole physics part of his fall, given the dimensions of the stairway. If he had merely climbed on a banister and fell off (as opposed to running or riding the scooter- anything that would have given him momentum), would it have been possible for him to have grabbed the chandelier and hit the other side of the stairs? Seems to me he would fall straight down- maybe grab for the chandelier, but certainly not to the extent that he did...which takes us back to him needing momentum of some sort. So does anyone know or have an opinion? If he had been planking or the like (hate to bring that controversial topic up but I am using it as an example of how he could have been stationary and then fell), could he have accomplished what he did with the chandelier?

Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 01:24 PM
Regarding the scooter... I do find it interesting that the reenactment provided by LE in how Maxie supposedly fell does not include the scooter. If they think he was riding it, do you all think they would have included that in their reenactment? Because either the scooter went with him over the railing or the scooter happened to be downstairs, maybe propped against the railing and happened to land on Maxie after he fell.

I am NOT saying that I believe this-- but based on the autopsy (sorry I cannot read it, too horrible for me to read), do you think he could have been pushed over the railing? Or do you think he would need momentum to fall in the way LE says he did?

In order to fall the way LE says he did, I think he would need lots of momentum. However...I'm not convinced anything happened the way LE says it did.

Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 01:30 PM
I am unsure of the whole physics part of his fall, given the dimensions of the stairway. If he had merely climbed on a banister and fell off (as opposed to running or riding the scooter- anything that would have given him momentum), would it have been possible for him to have grabbed the chandelier and hit the other side of the stairs? Seems to me he would fall straight down- maybe grab for the chandelier, but certainly not to the extent that he did...which takes us back to him needing momentum of some sort. So does anyone know or have an opinion? If he had been planking or the like (hate to bring that controversial topic up but I am using it as an example of how he could have been stationary and then fell), could he have accomplished what he did with the chandelier?

I'm not understanding the flip that LE depicts. Before the AR came out I thought OK, he was probably standing on the upper railing, fell off and broke his neck. But now that we have the AR and LE's version of how it happened I'm more confused than ever.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 01:34 PM
I would think a great deal of momentum or force would be needed to sustain such injuries. But I have absolutely no idea how he got up that much speed or force on his own.

If the area was carpeted, there's no way I could see him getting that much force or momentum from a scooter (not to mention that his height pretty much shows he couldn't get over the railing in such a manner, so the carpeting issue is a moot point). Planking would make him fall downwards, not propel him over a bannister, so that's pretty much ruled out.

IMO

CDS22
09-16-2011, 01:39 PM
In order to fall the way LE says he did, I think he would need lots of momentum. However...I'm not convinced anything happened the way LE says it did.

Do you have any theories on how he could have sustained his injuries?

Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 01:49 PM
If the area was carpeted, there's no way I could see him getting that much force or momentum from a scooter (not to mention that his height pretty much shows he couldn't get over the railing in such a manner, so the carpeting issue is a moot point). Planking would make him fall downwards, not propel him over a bannister, so that's pretty much ruled out.

IMO

I'm pretty confident he wasn't riding a scooter and went over the railing. I think you're absolutely right about not gaining momentum with a scooter on carpet.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 01:51 PM
I'm pretty confident he wasn't riding a scooter and went over the railing. I think you're absolutely right about not gaining momentum with a scooter on carpet.

I can't think of what would give a small body MS's size enough momentum to fly over the stairs or railing or whatever, and into the chandelier. Plus where they say his body landed doesn't make sense.

IMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 01:52 PM
Do you have any theories on how he could have sustained his injuries?

Other than running very fast down the hallway, tripping over something and flying over the railing being a possibility, no, I don't have any theories.

Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 01:53 PM
I can't think of what would give a small body MS's size enough momentum to fly over the stairs or railing or whatever, and into the chandelier. Plus where they say his body landed doesn't make sense.

IMO

I agree. None of it makes any sense.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 01:56 PM
Other than running very fast down the hallway, tripping over something and flying over the railing being a possibility, no, I don't have any theories.

When I saw his height in the AR, and the size of the railing in the photographs, and read the Hinky Meter post about his death, I don't see how he could have been tall enough to fly over the railing, even if he tripped over something.

ehough22
09-16-2011, 02:00 PM
Re: the ball that was found- what if he was playing catch with someone or bouncing the ball off the walls/carpet or even playing ball with Ocean? What if he was near the stairs and the ball came flying towards the stairs and he jumped/did some other exaggerated "save" move to get the ball before it fell? Please note I am talking a major, leaning back or to the side over the railing, not just simply catching the ball. Is that possible given all the measurements, that he could lean over to save the ball and lean too far? He'd be moving quickly, I don't know if that would be enough momentum for the rest of the fall or not. Just thinking out loud.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 02:07 PM
Re: the ball that was found- what if he was playing catch with someone or bouncing the ball off the walls/carpet or even playing ball with Ocean? What if he was near the stairs and the ball came flying towards the stairs and he jumped/did some other exaggerated "save" move to get the ball before it fell? Please note I am talking a major, leaning back or to the side over the railing, not just simply catching the ball. Is that possible given all the measurements, that he could lean over to save the ball and lean too far? He'd be moving quickly, I don't know if that would be enough momentum for the rest of the fall or not. Just thinking out loud.

Would the ball then be found at the bottom of the stairs near Max as opposed to wildly flying off somewhere? That's what bothers me about the balls. If he was playing with them enough to go flying over a railing, the balls wouldn't neatly be laying near him.

But your explanation about chasing after something like a ball makes as much sense as anything else for how he got over the railing. It just doesn't explain the chandelier or the momentum or the scooter.

rosemary
09-16-2011, 03:19 PM
So you think hired staff could do a better job of watching children than someone who professes to love the child so much that she refers to him as her son?

Rebecca may have felt that Max was like a son to her, but that doesn't mean she is experienced or has enough knowledge in looking after kids. I don't know why you keep expecting her to be perfect or know the ways of motherhood. I am a mother myself, a first time mom to a 3 year old boy. I love my son more than anything in the world, but I also admit that I am not perfect, I sometimes make mistakes and I sometimes still seek guidance from my own mother who is definitely more experienced than I am. Hired staff like nannies or professional babysitters would have had far more knowledge and experience in looking after young kids than someone like Rebecca, who doesn't have any of her own. She had only been with Jonah for two years, and wasn't even married to him. Why should she have been expected to be an expert when it comes to being a parent?

CDS22
09-16-2011, 03:25 PM
Rebecca may have felt that Max was like a son to her, but that doesn't mean she is experienced or has enough knowledge in looking after kids. I don't know why you keep expecting her to be perfect or know the ways of motherhood. I am a mother myself, a first time mom to a 3 year old boy. I love my son more than anything in the world, but I also admit that I am not perfect, I sometimes make mistakes and I sometimes still seek guidance from my own mother who is definitely more experienced than I am. Hired staff like nannies or professional babysitters would have had far more knowledge and experience in looking after young kids than someone like Rebecca, who doesn't have any of her own. She had only been with Jonah for two years, and wasn't even married to him. Why should she have been expected to be an expert when it comes to being a parent?

No one expected her to be an expert. If you notice, most of the posts here are about how MS could have fallen down or over or from the stairs and brought down a chandelier with him, more than they are about anything else. We're trying to figure out the logistics of such a fall, and discussing discrepancies in statements by various people about how Max got fatally injured. I find it strange that people are constantly bringing up RZ's death here, as well as blaming JS for MS's death. JS is a victim here and should be treated as such. It's ridiculous that people are blaming him for having stairs in his house.

rosemary
09-16-2011, 04:29 PM
Fatal accidents do happen, but falling down the stairs and receiving whiplash at the age of 6? How common is that?

Also, what do you think JS should have done to minimize the risks of a fatal fall? Remove the stairs?

A lot more common than a woman who commits naked suicide by hanging herself on a balcony outside, with bound hands and feet and a gag on her mouth. Here's some more info on just how common falls are:



Falls remain a significant cause of morbidity and mortality. At most trauma centers, falls are the primary mechanism of injury resulting in admission for children. Factors determining the probability of serious injury in a fall are the distance of the fall, the landing surface, orientation on falling, and whether the fall was broken.

The brain, spinal cord, and extremities are the most commonly injured systems. Falls from more than 20 feet have historically been triaged to trauma centers, but even low-level falls can cause serious head injuries.2,3

Demographics of Falls in Children

Falls among children and adolescents account for more than three million emergency department visits each year, and more than 40% occur among infants, toddlers, and preschoolers.
In contrast to ground-level falls in the elderly, males and children are more susceptible to falls from heights.4 Black males under age 5 are at particularly high risk.5
Accounting for 5.9% of childhood deaths due to trauma, falls represent the third leading cause of death in children.6 Death due to falls is generally from a head injury.7
Falls in children tend to be from balconies, windows, and trees, and most frequently tend to occur in homes, followed by schoolyards and playgrounds.8
Nearly three-quarters of falls from a height in children are unintentional.

http://www.facs.org/trauma/falls.html


According to the National Safety Council reports nearly twelve thousand deaths per year with almost half of the deaths occurring in the home. Incidents related to stairs are only second to automobile crashes as the major cause of unintended injuries in the United States.[1]
“Stairs in the home can be one of the most dangerous places for anyone, in particular, for the elderly, handicapped and young children. They can create the opportunity not only for accidents, but also for potential liability. For this reason, stair safety should be a priority with any homeowner, whether you have at risk members of your home, or not.”[2]

http://www.rouleau-law.com/Stairs.html


Any situation that involves an abrupt change in speed and the neck is not protected one way or the other can result to a whiplash injury. In fact, falling off a horse, a bike or anything else, can cause a whiplash injury.


Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/law-articles/whiplash-injury-and-accident-claims-728648.html#ixzz1Y9HLfdWZ
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution No Derivatives

Btw, most rich people tend to hire nannies or hired staff to ensure that their children don't get up to any mischief. And even then, accidents can still sometimes happen, just like what happened to Eric Clapton's son:



Lory's face darkens when she talks about what happened on the day of the tragedy in her friend's apartment on New York's 57th Street, where she was due to stay for a month. The pain is visible on her face and her voice drops to barely a whisper. 'The night before I put Conor to bed. He was pretending to be asleep but when I went to bed, he jumped in with me - he was so excited about the day he'd had with his Daddy. We began the next day with the same excitement. Conor was full of talk about the elephants he had seen with his Daddy at the circus the day before. Eric was coming to collect us and take us to Central Zoo. Conor was in his room still wearing his pyjamas - he wouldn't go to sleep in any others. He was playing with his nanny and I heard him talking and shouting happily. I was having a bath and getting changed ready to go to the zoo. It was 11am and I shouted to him from the bathroom to hurry up and he shouted back happily back, "In a minute,"'
'That day the apartment block janitor was in the apartment cleaning. I told the nanny and the maid not to leave Conor alone for one second. I came out of the bathroom and heard the fax ring. I stopped to check it and after discovering that it was an estimate for some repair work, I started to compare it with others. I was there for 15 minutes, during which time I heard Conor suddenly start running as he decided to play hide and seek.'
'I heard the nanny and she was running right behind him. But as Conor run into the room where the janitor was cleaning, the janitor stopped her to tell here that he had slid open the window - a huge wall of glass. In the second she stopped to listen to what he was saying, Conor ran straight through the window. I heard a dreadful scream but it wasn't Conor. It was the nanny, I ran into the room, shouting more and more hysterically, "Where's Conor, where's Conor?" Then I saw the open window and I understood at once. I felt all my strength leave me and I collapsed on the floor.'
'Eric arrived five minutes later, not realising Conor had fallen to the street below. He came into the bedroom and I screamed, "He's dead." His eyes went dark and he said, "Dead, he's dead. It's impossible." He found it hard to believe at first. Then his face turned to stone; it was like a film. We said absolutely nothing to each other. I just stopped functioning.'
'The glass was about 4ft by 6ft tall and as we were staying there temporarily, I never knew it was even possible to open it. It wasn't a window, but like a glass wall which was never, even meant to be opened. It was kept permanently locked, but the lock was broken and for some incomprehensible reason, janitor swung it open to let in some fresh air. It had a wooden ledge a foot off the ground. Our son much have thought the glass was still there when he jumped on to the low ledge a foot of the gound. At first first I wanted to kill the janitor. He had no common sense. He never even asked for forgiveness later.'
'I kept thinking of ifs... if I hadn't stopped to read the fax, I would have seen the window open and closed it. From that moment on I ceased to live. The concierge called the ambulance but obviously there was no hope. Eric went to see him at the mortuary, but I just couldn't.'

http://www.eric-clapton.co.uk/interviewsandarticles/loryinterview.htm

thinkingstraight
09-16-2011, 04:43 PM
That story is so sad! I still tear up when hearing " tears in heaven".

rosemary
09-16-2011, 04:46 PM
No one expected her to be an expert. If you notice, most of the posts here are about how MS could have fallen down or over or from the stairs and brought down a chandelier with him, more than they are about anything else. We're trying to figure out the logistics of such a fall, and discussing discrepancies in statements by various people about how Max got fatally injured. I find it strange that people are constantly bringing up RZ's death here, as well as blaming JS for MS's death. JS is a victim here and should be treated as such. It's ridiculous that people are blaming him for having stairs in his house.

I never blamed Jonah for Max's death, but I have seen people blame Rebecca for it. Some have said that the outcome of the LE's findings into Max's death might have been different had Rebecca not killed herself, or even suggested that she might have killed herself because she was scared she might go to jail or something. Rebecca wasn't Max's parent, nor was she hired to look after him. She was Jonah's gf, so I don't know why some people seem to think the whole responsibility of looking after Max should fall entirely on her. As a parent, I would blame myself for choosing to entrust my child's care to someone who doesn't have any experience in looking after kids. And I was replying to this comment of yours:


So you think hired staff could do a better job of watching children than someone who professes to love the child so much that she refers to him as her son?

I would be more willing to hire a professional who has experience when it comes to looking after kids than let my own sister babysit my son, I'm close to her but that I still don't trust her enough to look after him properly due to her inexperience. She doesn't have any kids of her own.

Yoda
09-16-2011, 04:54 PM
I've been thinking over the different theories presented on this thread for how Max was injured. The ball theory is an interesting one (Max got a ball caught in the chandelier and threw another one to try to dislodge it, lost his balance, and fell over the railing). Except - the railing was too high for him to fall over. Did he climb on it? Perhaps, but he strikes me as having been too bright to try something so dangerous. But let's suppose he did. Then if he were to fall to his death, how would he be found on his back with the scooter across his leg, and why would the balls be found by him? If the balls were in the chandelier, the force of them being knocked out with Max and the chandelier would have caused them to scatter. They wouldn't be found at the bottom of the accident scene together near a scooter and downed chandelier.

IMO. The ball caught in the chandelier theory: when I look at the stairwell photos it looks as if the chandelier is closer to the landing between floors than the top of the stairs. Much closer. I would think if there was a ball caught he would try from there or on one of the stairs that put him directly in line with it. Scooter question: I tend to think, from where they were found, the scooter was downstairs,probably next to the balls, placed against the wall, to be kept out of the way while not being used. When max fell he or the chandelier hit them and caused them to move. The scooter could have easily fell onto his shin from being jarred from the fall or the turn over to check on him. None of these things explains what happened to him, bit IMO they would explain why they were found where they were.

SophieRose
09-16-2011, 05:02 PM
I would be more willing to hire a professional who has experience when it comes to looking after kids than let my own sister babysit my son, I'm close to her but that I still don't trust her enough to look after him properly due to her inexperience. She doesn't have any kids of her own.
Lots of nannies don't have children of their own, may not have degrees, just experience. My cousin's friend (no children) got a job as a nanny for a minor celebrity, it was only her second job as a nanny. Rebecca was the second oldest, may have helped raise her younger siblings, may have nieces and nephews.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 05:30 PM
A lot more common than a woman who commits naked suicide by hanging herself on a balcony outside, with bound hands and feet and a gag on her mouth. Here's some more info on just how common falls are:




http://www.facs.org/trauma/falls.html



http://www.rouleau-law.com/Stairs.html



Btw, most rich people tend to hire nannies or hired staff to ensure that their children don't get up to any mischief. And even then, accidents can still sometimes happen, just like what happened to Eric Clapton's son:



http://www.eric-clapton.co.uk/interviewsandarticles/loryinterview.htm

Those statistics refer to children falling from windows, not from falling from stairs or bannisters. I have already posted a link that says childhood deaths from stair falls should always be investigated as suspicious. The link had a rather extreme viewpoint, stating that deaths from stair falls were not a possiblity in children, but if the LE are talking about death from falling over a railing, I suppose that would put it in a different category.

Also, this thread is the only one about Max's death and we should keep it on topic. There are multiple threads about RZ if you wish to discuss her death.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 05:34 PM
IMO. The ball caught in the chandelier theory: when I look at the stairwell photos it looks as if the chandelier is closer to the landing between floors than the top of the stairs. Much closer. I would think if there was a ball caught he would try from there or on one of the stairs that put him directly in line with it. Scooter question: I tend to think, from where they were found, the scooter was downstairs,probably next to the balls, placed against the wall, to be kept out of the way while not being used. When max fell he or the chandelier hit them and caused them to move. The scooter could have easily fell onto his shin from being jarred from the fall or the turn over to check on him. None of these things explains what happened to him, bit IMO they would explain why they were found where they were.

I can't see how the ball theory would give him enough momentum to go flying at the rate to suffer fatal whiplash. Also, the balls wouldn't be resting together near him if they went flying from a falling chandelier. They would be scattered.

The scooter on his shin doesn't make sense if he had a head injury from falling onto his face.

I just can't figure this one out.

rosemary
09-16-2011, 05:34 PM
Lots of nannies don't have children of their own, may not have degrees, just experience. My cousin's friend (no children) got a job as a nanny for a minor celebrity, it was only her second job as a nanny. Rebecca was the second oldest, may have helped raise her younger siblings, may have nieces and nephews.

But that still doesn't make Rebecca more capable than someone whose main job is looking after children. There are plenty of nannies who have had years of experience and practice with kids, which is completely different to babysitting relatives from time to time. Some nannies stay with the kids 24-7, their main responsibility is just to look after the child while the parents are away or doing something else. And even then, that still doesn't prevent accidents from happening. Like I said before, they can occur even with the most attentive parents or nannies looking after the children.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 05:36 PM
I never blamed Jonah for Max's death, but I have seen people blame Rebecca for it. Some have said that the outcome of the LE's findings into Max's death might have been different had Rebecca not killed herself, or even suggested that she might have killed herself because she was scared she might go to jail or something. Rebecca wasn't Max's parent, nor was she hired to look after him. She was Jonah's gf, so I don't know why some people seem to think the whole responsibility of looking after Max should fall entirely on her. As a parent, I would blame myself for choosing to entrust my child's care to someone who doesn't have any experience in looking after kids. And I was replying to this comment of yours:



I would be more willing to hire a professional who has experience when it comes to looking after kids than let my own sister babysit my son, I'm close to her but that I still don't trust her enough to look after him properly due to her inexperience. She doesn't have any kids of her own.

The outcome might be different if RZ was still alive because the police could question her further. There might be information she didn't give them for whatever reasons. One reason might be because she was too distraught at the time to be a thorough witness. It happens.

rosemary
09-16-2011, 05:48 PM
Those statistics refer to children falling from windows, not from falling from stairs or bannisters. I have already posted a link that says childhood deaths from stair falls should always be investigated as suspicious. The link had a rather extreme viewpoint, stating that deaths from stair falls were not a possiblity in children, but if the LE are talking about death from falling over a railing, I suppose that would put it in a different category.

Also, this thread is the only one about Max's death and we should keep it on topic. There are multiple threads about RZ if you wish to discuss her death.

And the LE already investigated Max's death twice, and both results still came up with accident. Even if children tend to fall more from windows, it's still not impossible for them to fall from trees, balconies, stairs, etc. That's why general falls are one of the main causes of accidents in the US. They just don't happen to children, even older people are not immune from falling too.

rosemary
09-16-2011, 05:56 PM
edit. sorry, double post.

rosemary
09-16-2011, 06:18 PM
I can't see how the ball theory would give him enough momentum to go flying at the rate to suffer fatal whiplash. Also, the balls wouldn't be resting together near him if they went flying from a falling chandelier. They would be scattered.

The scooter on his shin doesn't make sense if he had a head injury from falling onto his face.

I just can't figure this one out.

If Max had been running or was on his scooter, it might have been possible for him to have tripped and fallen from the rails. He might have even tripped on the dog.The chandelier is quite close enough for him to have hit it when he fell from the stairs:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wxZcCvefUuI/TiYCX6M3jsI/AAAAAAAAAkA/nBLXPSrJqdw/s1600/str4.jpg

katydid23
09-16-2011, 06:50 PM
Rebecca may have felt that Max was like a son to her, but that doesn't mean she is experienced or has enough knowledge in looking after kids. I don't know why you keep expecting her to be perfect or know the ways of motherhood. I am a mother myself, a first time mom to a 3 year old boy. I love my son more than anything in the world, but I also admit that I am not perfect, I sometimes make mistakes and I sometimes still seek guidance from my own mother who is definitely more experienced than I am. Hired staff like nannies or professional babysitters would have had far more knowledge and experience in looking after young kids than someone like Rebecca, who doesn't have any of her own. She had only been with Jonah for two years, and wasn't even married to him. Why should she have been expected to be an expert when it comes to being a parent?

I do not expect that she was an 'expert.' But I would expect that she kept an eye on a young boy and listened for danger. Being in the bathroom for 20 minutes,while also hearing him 'playing' in the upstairs hallway just requires common sense, not expertise, that one would stick your head out of the door and ask him to stop running or scooting or playing soccer upstairs. It is just common sense,imo. Her family's attorney claims it was a planking accident. It does not require an expert to prevent a 6 yr old from planking on a second floor stairway.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 06:51 PM
And the LE already investigated Max's death twice, and both results still came up with accident. Even if children tend to fall more from windows, it's still not impossible for them to fall from trees, balconies, stairs, etc. That's why general falls are one of the main causes of accidents in the US. They just don't happen to children, even older people are not immune from falling too.

Older children are less likely to die from falls. I posted the link to that a few pages ago. In fact, the article stated it was an impossibility, but again, that's just one article.

The point is that not everyone agrees with the LE's findings, or at least the diagram of how Max fell. For one thing, they have his height proportion wrong to the size of the railings. The article with information about that is linked here, too. Also, Max's death wasn't investigated til RZ's death. The scene of the accident was cleaned up days before anyone even decided to look into the child's demise so they only had so much to go by.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 02:02 AM
Older children are less likely to die from falls. I posted the link to that a few pages ago. In fact, the article stated it was an impossibility, but again, that's just one article.

The point is that not everyone agrees with the LE's findings, or at least the diagram of how Max fell. For one thing, they have his height proportion wrong to the size of the railings. The article with information about that is linked here, too. Also, Max's death wasn't investigated til RZ's death. The scene of the accident was cleaned up days before anyone even decided to look into the child's demise so they only had so much to go by.

How do you know for sure that the LE hadn't investigated or at least inquired about what happened to Max? Plus, if the LE had already declared Max's fall to be an accident without even bothering to investigate it, why would Rebecca have killed herself then? And if she truly was responsible for what had happened and killed herself because of her guilty conscience, why didn't she write an apology or confession admitting that she was the one who had caused Max to fall from the stairs? I know that this is thread is about Max, but it's hard not to talk about Rebecca as well since the two deaths are linked together.

Even if the scene of the accident had been cleaned days before anyone had decided to look into Max's demise, that still doesn't mean that the LE wouldn't have been able to glean information as to what exactly had happened when he fell.They could have interviewed Rebecca's sister, and if her statement had contradicted Rebecca's, they would have or should have taken note of that and investigated it further. And I believe the LE have also examined the area from where Max had fallen from, there were a few photos back in one of the older threads which showed the police using a blue light to examine the walls and the staircase of the house. Plus, they would still have known what the original scene of the accident had looked like based on the initial police report on Max's fall. The ME was the one who had determined that Max's injuries and subsequent death were consistent with those of an accidental fall, this is the same ME who had also declared that Rebecca's injuries and death were consistent with a suicidal hanging rather than a homicidal one.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 02:03 AM
Btw, is it possible that a woman the size and weight of Rebecca could have had the strength to have lifted Max up and thrown him with such force from the railings that he collided with the chandelier and brought it down with him? If she had been able to do that, I think there would have or should have been signs of scratches, DNA, or fingerprints from both Rebecca and Max on the hand railings because I don't believe that a 6 year old boy would have allowed himself to be lifted off the stairs without putting up a struggle and a fight.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 02:55 AM
I do not expect that she was an 'expert.' But I would expect that she kept an eye on a young boy and listened for danger. Being in the bathroom for 20 minutes,while also hearing him 'playing' in the upstairs hallway just requires common sense, not expertise, that one would stick your head out of the door and ask him to stop running or scooting or playing soccer upstairs. It is just common sense,imo. Her family's attorney claims it was a planking accident. It does not require an expert to prevent a 6 yr old from planking on a second floor stairway.
If the water had been running in the bathroom, Rebecca would have not have been able to properly hear Max playing upstairs. I seriously doubt a mansion that big (it had three floors) would have been able to carry sound the way a smaller house would have. Plus if the floor was carpeted, that would have also served to mute the sound of running footsteps or a scooter. One of my family friends also has a three storey house, it's pretty big but nowhere near the size of the the Shacknai Colorado mansion. Even then, it's still hard to hear any sounds coming from the third level if you were downstairs on the first floor, unless it was extremely loud. And this was with wooden flooring rather than carpeting.

20 minutes might seem like a long time to leave a child by himself, but Max was 6 years old! I know of plenty of parents, including my own, who feel that a 6 year old child is old enough not to require constant supervision all the time. And I think that if Max had actually needed that much supervision, Jonah should have hired a professional nanny or babysitter to look after him, instead of relying on his gf to do so.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 07:58 AM
How do you know for sure that the LE hadn't investigated or at least inquired about what happened to Max? Plus, if the LE had already declared Max's fall to be an accident without even bothering to investigate it, why would Rebecca have killed herself then? And if she truly was responsible for what had happened and killed herself because of her guilty conscience, why didn't she write an apology or confession admitting that she was the one who had caused Max to fall from the stairs? I know that this is thread is about Max, but it's hard not to talk about Rebecca as well since the two deaths are linked together.

Even if the scene of the accident had been cleaned days before anyone had decided to look into Max's demise, that still doesn't mean that the LE wouldn't have been able to glean information as to what exactly had happened when he fell.They could have interviewed Rebecca's sister, and if her statement had contradicted Rebecca's, they would have or should have taken note of that and investigated it further. And I believe the LE have also examined the area from where Max had fallen from, there were a few photos back in one of the older threads which showed the police using a blue light to examine the walls and the staircase of the house. Plus, they would still have known what the original scene of the accident had looked like based on the initial police report on Max's fall. The ME was the one who had determined that Max's injuries and subsequent death were consistent with those of an accidental fall, this is the same ME who had also declared that Rebecca's injuries and death were consistent with a suicidal hanging rather than a homicidal one.

The LE have more information to go by with RZ's death than they do MS's death, because they investigated her death more. They took RZ's word for what happened to MS and let her clean up the scene almost immediately.

I've been reading about deaths that were at first assumed to be falls. Later on, they've been found to be homicides. Am I saying MS's death was a homicide? No. But I am saying that things aren't always what they appear, and that the explanation we've been given for MS's fall does not make sense. Perhaps the police have more information they're not releasing, but with what they've told us, it just doesn't add up.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:00 AM
Btw, is it possible that a woman the size and weight of Rebecca could have had the strength to have lifted Max up and thrown him with such force from the railings that he collided with the chandelier and brought it down with him? If she had been able to do that, I think there would have or should have been signs of scratches, DNA, or fingerprints from both Rebecca and Max on the hand railings because I don't believe that a 6 year old boy would have allowed himself to be lifted off the stairs without putting up a struggle and a fight.

I am RS's size and weigh less than she did. I can easily pick up a 6 year old child, so yes, I think it's possible for a petite woman to do something like that. However, just because something is in the realm of possibility doesn't mean it happened.

I'd rather concentrate on the logistics of how MS was found on the floor, surrounded by 2 balls, a scooter, and a chandelier at his shoulder, than I would on possible scenarios than might or might not have happened. In other words, I'd like to stick with what we know. That's just my two cents.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:02 AM
Btw, is it possible that a woman the size and weight of Rebecca could have had the strength to have lifted Max up and thrown him with such force from the railings that he collided with the chandelier and brought it down with him? If she had been able to do that, I think there would have or should have been signs of scratches, DNA, or fingerprints from both Rebecca and Max on the hand railings because I don't believe that a 6 year old boy would have allowed himself to be lifted off the stairs without putting up a struggle and a fight.

Speaking of size and what is and isn't possible, I don't believe it's possible for a 45 lb. boy to bring down a chandelier. I have four chandeliers in my house, and when I was worried about the large one possibly falling and injuring someone, the man who put it in for us proved to me that it was secure by getting up on a ladder and swinging from it. That's what makes this entire thing so strange to me - the chandelier and the scooter.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:05 AM
If the water had been running in the bathroom, Rebecca would have not have been able to properly hear Max playing upstairs. I seriously doubt a mansion that big (it had three floors) would have been able to carry sound the way a smaller house would have. Plus if the floor was carpeted, that would have also served to mute the sound of running footsteps or a scooter. One of my family friends also has a three storey house, it's pretty big but nowhere near the size of the the Shacknai Colorado mansion. Even then, it's still hard to hear any sounds coming from the third level if you were downstairs on the first floor, unless it was extremely loud. And this was with wooden flooring rather than carpeting.

20 minutes might seem like a long time to leave a child by himself, but Max was 6 years old! I know of plenty of parents, including my own, who feel that a 6 year old child is old enough not to require constant supervision all the time. And I think that if Max had actually needed that much supervision, Jonah should have hired a professional nanny or babysitter to look after him, instead of relying on his gf to do so.


If she was in the bathroom that she says she was, and if MS was where the LE think he was when he fell, she should have been able to hear something before the big crash. For example, if he fell from the railing onto the bannister, that sound alone would reverberate throughout the house.

Another thing that is odd is RZ said she called for XZ to come to help her and call 911 while RZ gave MS CPR. However, she also says XZ was in the shower. So if XZ couldn't hear a 4 year old swinging from a chandelier and crashing from railing to bannister to wall to floor, how could she hear RZ call her name? Just doesn't add up.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:10 AM
Btw, is it possible that a woman the size and weight of Rebecca could have had the strength to have lifted Max up and thrown him with such force from the railings that he collided with the chandelier and brought it down with him? If she had been able to do that, I think there would have or should have been signs of scratches, DNA, or fingerprints from both Rebecca and Max on the hand railings because I don't believe that a 6 year old boy would have allowed himself to be lifted off the stairs without putting up a struggle and a fight.

We do know that XZ was injured enough for RZ to call her sister the nurse and ask what to do about the injuries. We also know that RZ told the dog guy that XZ was injured as MS was in the fall. I'm not disputing that the injuries could have been caused by cleaning up broken glass, but it sure would have been nice to know for sure, particularly since XZ was whisked off to another state before she could be questioned further.

I also wonder if RZ's head bumps could have been caused prior to her hanging, meaning on the Monday that MS fell.

Since the Zahau family's lawyer has thrown out planking as the cause of MS's injuries, without RZ or XZ mentioning planking to the police, it makes me wonder if XZ admitted to planking. I could see a teenager or adult perhaps bringing down a chandelier and falling on a small boy who was on the floor playing. Falls are odd things. Sometimes if someone has a landing (like another person) they can get out of it nearly unscathed. There was a case not too long ago of someone jumping out the window in an apparent suicide. They landed on the person below. The person who was landed on died from injuries. The suicidal person remained unscathed. Just a thought.

IMO

stilettos
09-17-2011, 08:13 AM
What is strange is that XZ went to the Urgent Care facility for her injuries and was scheduled to go back for suture check/removal...yet was sent home on a plane before that. I do not think cleaning up glass would injure her leg in that manner. JMO

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:25 AM
Just to give you an idea of a case involving a fall that was ruled murder:

http://www.peterson-staircase.com/coincidence.html

Now I'm not saying MS's fall was murder. I'm of the opinion that no one set out to kill MS that day. However, I am also of the opinion that the fall wasn't MS's fault and that we were not told the full story of what happened by RZ and/or XZ.

IMO

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:27 AM
And another case:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/3-Year-Olds-Fall-Death-Ruled-Homicide-125553898.html

rosemary
09-17-2011, 08:28 AM
The LE have more information to go by with RZ's death than they do MS's death, because they investigated her death more. They took RZ's word for what happened to MS and let her clean up the scene almost immediately.

I've been reading about deaths that were at first assumed to be falls. Later on, they've been found to be homicides. Am I saying MS's death was a homicide? No. But I am saying that things aren't always what they appear, and that the explanation we've been given for MS's fall does not make sense. Perhaps the police have more information they're not releasing, but with what they've told us, it just doesn't add up.

How do you know that they just took her word for it without asking her questions about the incident? That would have been very incompetent of them. If the LE did a poor job investigating Max's accident, then one should also suspect that they also weren't up to task in handling Rebecca's death. But at least in Max's case, we got a re-enactment of his fall, even though some have considered it to be inaccurate. We didn't even get any of that in Rebecca's case.

I think if there was actually any evidence of a struggle or a fight between Rebecca and Max, it would be found in the spot where Max had fallen from. If the railings in the staircase were made of wood, it wouldn't have been easy to destroy or erase any signs of fingerprints or DNA on it.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:31 AM
What is strange is that XZ went to the Urgent Care facility for her injuries and was scheduled to go back for suture check/removal...yet was sent home on a plane before that. I do not think cleaning up glass would injure her leg in that manner. JMO

This is the first I've heard of that. Can you tell me more?

I posted a link from one of the Zahau sisters stating that RZ didn't know what to do about XZ's injuries, and also that RZ told the dog guy her "daughter" was also injured in the same accident. The sister also said that RZ was concerned about XZ's injuries and wanted the sister who was a nurse to treat the wounds. The wounds were described as being on her hands. So if we have an injured leg and injured hands from someone who was allegedly in the shower during MS's fall that no one seemed to witness, well, that's just weird.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:36 AM
How do you know that they just took her word for it without asking her questions about the incident? That would have been very incompetent of them. If the LE did a poor job investigating Max's accident, then one should also suspect that they also weren't up to task in handling Rebecca's death. But at least in Max's case, we got a re-enactment of his fall, even though some have considered it to be inaccurate. We didn't even get any of that in Rebecca's case.

I think if there was actually any evidence of a struggle or a fight between Rebecca and Max, it would be found in the spot where Max had fallen from. If the railings in the staircase were made of wood, it wouldn't have been easy to destroy or erase any signs of fingerprints or DNA on it.

Four independent teams investigated RZ's death. MS didn't have the same benefit.

As far as the re-enactment of RZ's suicide, they police did offer a live re-enactment of the binding. Obviously they didn't have an officer hang herself, but they did show how it could be done.

MS had injuries on his back as well as his head. Typically head injuries that also have trunk injuries are treated as abuse, not as an injury. I posted the link to that earlier in this thread.

We don't know if there were signs of a struggle that were cleaned up or staged because we don't know precisely when MS was injured, only when XZ called 911 and when help arrived. What we do know is the most puzzling of all - the fact that a scooter was on MS's shin when he was on his back. Doesn't make sense at all.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:38 AM
This man's death was ruled a homicide:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2006-01-01/news/18337263_1_ruben-valentin-stairs-death

He was able to talk, so that's how police knew what happened to him. We know now from MS's AR that he was not able to talk by the time he was treated by the authorities. That makes RZ's claim of MS's last word being "Ocean" all the more unbelievable.

IMO

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:46 AM
What is strange is that XZ went to the Urgent Care facility for her injuries and was scheduled to go back for suture check/removal...yet was sent home on a plane before that. I do not think cleaning up glass would injure her leg in that manner. JMO

Found it:


Also listed on Zahau's cell phone logs was an incoming call at 7:09 p.m. on July 12 from Coronado Bay Urgent Care in Imperial Beach.

Rebecca's 13-year-old sister had received stitches in her leg at the urgent care center on Monday, July 11 after cutting herself on glass. The center was calling to confirm a follow-up appointment for Wednesday.

That appointment was canceled because Zahau had already dropped off the teenager at the airport in the afternoon of July 12 for her return flight to Missouri.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15485069/records-reveal-final-cell-phone-calls-to-rebecca-zahau

rosemary
09-17-2011, 08:47 AM
I am RS's size and weigh less than she did. I can easily pick up a 6 year old child, so yes, I think it's possible for a petite woman to do something like that. However, just because something is in the realm of possibility doesn't mean it happened.

I'd rather concentrate on the logistics of how MS was found on the floor, surrounded by 2 balls, a scooter, and a chandelier at his shoulder, than I would on possible scenarios than might or might not have happened. In other words, I'd like to stick with what we know. That's just my two cents.

Fair enough, but like I said, if Rebecca had anything to do with Max's fall, the main scene of the crime would have been the spot where he had fallen from. It wouldn't have been the spot where he was found lying on.

And if a woman the size of Rebecca (who also walked with a limp according to some reports) could have lifted up a boy the size of Max, would she have been able to restrain him enough so he wouldn't put up a fight? And would she have had the strength to throw a boy his size down from the stairs, with the hand rails as an added obstacle, with enough velocity to make him crash into the chandelier and bring it down with him?

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:48 AM
And interesting that RZ didn't want to talk about the accident with Dina's twin sister:


Family members said Rebecca had picked up Romano at a San Diego airport on Monday afternoon, several hours after Max Shacknai's fall down the stairs.

"I just wanted to talk to her about the accident," Romano said. "And so I sent her a text message that said, ‘Hey are you around? I'd like to come by,' and I never heard from her. She never responded to me."

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15485069/records-reveal-final-cell-phone-calls-to-rebecca-zahau

If it's just an accident and RZ didn't feel guilt, as alleged by her sister, then why not talk about it?

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:52 AM
Fair enough, but like I said, if Rebecca had anything to do with Max's fall, the main scene of the crime would have been the spot where he had fallen from. It wouldn't have been the spot where he was found lying on.

And if a woman the size of Rebecca (who also walked with a limp according to some reports) could have lifted up a boy the size of Max, would she have been able to restrain him enough so he wouldn't put up a fight? And would she have had the strength to throw a boy his size down from the stairs, with the hand rails as an added obstacle, with enough velocity to make him crash into the chandelier and bring it down with him?

It's not enough to investigate only where the body was found, but the point from where the person allegedly fell. That's why so many are questioning the report, because we can't understand how MS got the momentum to do everything he was alleged to have done.

RZ was supposed to have been training for a marathon or something, according to her sister, and her gym instructor or trainer called her athletic. She used the stair master and worked out a lot. She was hardly a weakling, so could she have picked up a small child? Sure. However, we've had no proof offered that she did so, nor has anyone else suggested it.

Like I've said, I don't think a 45 lb. boy could bring a chandelier down even if he was swinging from it. I also don't think a child could do the gymnastics necessary to get all the injuries he had.

IMO

rosemary
09-17-2011, 09:00 AM
Speaking of size and what is and isn't possible, I don't believe it's possible for a 45 lb. boy to bring down a chandelier. I have four chandeliers in my house, and when I was worried about the large one possibly falling and injuring someone, the man who put it in for us proved to me that it was secure by getting up on a ladder and swinging from it. That's what makes this entire thing so strange to me - the chandelier and the scooter.

If one of the most expensive chandeliers in the world could be brought down by a single throw of a shoe, do you honestly think a 45 lb. boy wouldn't be able to after colliding hard on it?


The Middle East’s Most Expensive Chandelier Destroyed by Croc-Throwing Teenager
A Kuwaiti teenager is in some hot water after flying into a shoe-throwing rage and destroying a chandelier worth over $1.8 million.

The teen was shopping at the 360 Mall when, for reasons unclear to investigators (futility of modern life?), he removed his shoe and launched it at the giant orange and red light fixture suspended from the shopping center's cathedral ceiling. Once the shoe hit the chandelier, it detached and fell to the ground, shattering. Upon questioning, the thrower admitted to launching the glass-destroying slipper but said he didn't think the force of the throw would be enough to bring down such a large item. Authorities are considering dropping all charges against him.

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 09:07 AM
This is the first I've heard of that. Can you tell me more?

I posted a link from one of the Zahau sisters stating that RZ didn't know what to do about XZ's injuries, and also that RZ told the dog guy her "daughter" was also injured in the same accident. The sister also said that RZ was concerned about XZ's injuries and wanted the sister who was a nurse to treat the wounds. The wounds were described as being on her hands. So if we have an injured leg and injured hands from someone who was allegedly in the shower during MS's fall that no one seemed to witness, well, that's just weird.

What I find strange is that early reports said GS was treated for cuts on her hands. Then they said that XZ was treated for cuts on her legs.


Four independent teams investigated RZ's death. MS didn't have the same benefit.

As far as the re-enactment of RZ's suicide, they police did offer a live re-enactment of the binding. Obviously they didn't have an officer hang herself, but they did show how it could be done.

MS had injuries on his back as well as his head. Typically head injuries that also have trunk injuries are treated as abuse, not as an injury. I posted the link to that earlier in this thread.

We don't know if there were signs of a struggle that were cleaned up or staged because we don't know precisely when MS was injured, only when XZ called 911 and when help arrived. What we do know is the most puzzling of all - the fact that a scooter was on MS's shin when he was on his back. Doesn't make sense at all.

I still can not understand how Max fell onto the chandelier, rolled to his back to hit the bannister, than rolled again to do a face plant and get his injuries in the nrck region and face.

As for signs of a struggle. Max's accident was looked at twice with the same conclusion. Accident.


And interesting that RZ didn't want to talk about the accident with Dina's twin sister:



http://www.cbs8.com/story/15485069/records-reveal-final-cell-phone-calls-to-rebecca-zahau

If it's just an accident and RZ didn't feel guilt, as alleged by her sister, then why not talk about it?

It doesn't say that she didn't want to talk to DS sister NR. It said a text came to the phone at that time, not that it was read. That was quite awhile after Rebecca and her sister were finished talking and texting. I would think that between Max's accident, shuttling people around, bringing JS clothes and food, emotional stress worrying about Max, JS and her sister, that she was most likely exhausted and that is why she didn't respond to the text or answer JS call, for that matter.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 09:08 AM
If one of the most expensive chandeliers in the world could be brought down by a single throw of a shoe, do you honestly think a 45 lb. boy wouldn't be able to after colliding hard on it?

First of all, other reports about the Kuwait chandelier say that it was damaged, not knocked down. Here's a link with the picture:

http://www.bananaq8.com/news/most-expensive-chandelier-in-kuwait-broken-with-a-shoes/

Second of all, large chandeliers that are up that high (much, much higher than chandeliers in homes) have trigger switches to bring the chandeliers down for cleaning. IF the Kuwaiti chandelier was brought down (which most reports say it wasn't brought down or even destroyed, but only damaged), the trigger switch possibly could have been hit.

All that said, a home chandelier most likely could not be brought down by a 45 lb. kid. There are certain regulations about how home chandeliers are hung in order for them to be safe.

IMO

CDS22
09-17-2011, 09:12 AM
What also interests me is Max and the tranquilizer. Here's how the false positive was explained:


"In a forensic laboratory it is standard practice to do two independent tests. One is a presumptive test and the second is a confirmatory test," said Dr. Jain, the director of National Toxicology Laboratories in Buena Park, CA.

Jain said there are a couple reasons why the second HPLD/DAD test would come back with a different result of "Not Detected."

"Number one is that the presumptive test was totally negative; there was no benzodiazepine drug present. It could be totally, 100% false positive," Dr. Jain said. "And secondly, there may be a minuscule amount of benzodiazepine" in the blood that was not detected in the second test.

Either way, Jain said drugs likely played no role the in the death of Max Shacknai. "At least the drugs that were tested," Dr. Jain clarified.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15398193/toxicologist-test-showing-tranquilizer-in-shacknai-boys-blood-likely-a-false-positive?clienttype=printable

So we know MS may have had a miniscule amount of a tranquilizer in his system, such a small amount that it wouldn't even have shown up on a second test, nor would it be responsible for his fall. But it does make me wonder if someone had previously sedated the boy. It's just one of those things that make you go hmmmm.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 09:18 AM
It's not enough to investigate only where the body was found, but the point from where the person allegedly fell. That's why so many are questioning the report, because we can't understand how MS got the momentum to do everything he was alleged to have done.

RZ was supposed to have been training for a marathon or something, according to her sister, and her gym instructor or trainer called her athletic. She used the stair master and worked out a lot. She was hardly a weakling, so could she have picked up a small child? Sure. However, we've had no proof offered that she did so, nor has anyone else suggested it.

Like I've said, I don't think a 45 lb. boy could bring a chandelier down even if he was swinging from it. I also don't think a child could do the gymnastics necessary to get all the injuries he had.

IMO

Wow, this thread is moving fast!!

I remember that after Rebecca died, there were LE officers in the mansion all night. They were on the stair case and balcony, with those flashlights with the little blue lights. They didn't find anything. That sounds like a pretty thorough search for an area of struggle, in my mind anyway?

Even if she could have picked up a 45 pound child (almost 1/2 her weight by the way), I think it would have been a bit hard to pick him up as high as she would have had to, in order for him to be propelled over the railing. I don't say it as much for the weight factor, as I do because of the 6 year old boy, fighting, kicking, screaming, hitting, ball of fury he would have been.

So, even though I am not saying you accused her of it, I think it would have been too difficult to accomplish. Now I could easily see a man being able to propel a 45 pound child that way.

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 09:22 AM
What also interests me is Max and the tranquilizer. Here's how the false positive was explained:


http://www.cbs8.com/story/15398193/toxicologist-test-showing-tranquilizer-in-shacknai-boys-blood-likely-a-false-positive?clienttype=printable

So we know MS may have had a miniscule amount of a tranquilizer in his system, such a small amount that it wouldn't even have shown up on a second test, nor would it be responsible for his fall. But it does make me wonder if someone had previously sedated the boy. It's just one of those things that make you go hmmmm.

IMO

That makes me want to know if he had a medical problem that hasn't been disclosed, it makes me want to know when he arrived at the mansion, and the amount, as you could potentially have an idea when it was injusted by the 1/2 life. But it would only be an estimate as you don't know IF he took anything, or how much.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 09:23 AM
If Max had been running or was on his scooter, it might have been possible for him to have tripped and fallen from the rails. He might have even tripped on the dog.The chandelier is quite close enough for him to have hit it when he fell from the stairs:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wxZcCvefUuI/TiYCX6M3jsI/AAAAAAAAAkA/nBLXPSrJqdw/s1600/str4.jpg

I'm glad you posted that picture. In studying it, I can't imagine how MS could have fallen with enough momentum to fall towards the chandelier (not to mention his arms wouldn't be long enough to grab it). There isn't enough room for him to fall across and have the kind of momentum he did, not to mention that he was too short to topple over it.

If he had momentum from a scooter (which I don't believe he did because of the carpeting and the fact that the scooter was found downstairs across his leg), he would have fallen towards the wall, not upwards and onto the chandelier.

Curiouser and curiouser.

IMO

rosemary
09-17-2011, 09:24 AM
If she was in the bathroom that she says she was, and if MS was where the LE think he was when he fell, she should have been able to hear something before the big crash. For example, if he fell from the railing onto the bannister, that sound alone would reverberate throughout the house.

Another thing that is odd is RZ said she called for XZ to come to help her and call 911 while RZ gave MS CPR. However, she also says XZ was in the shower. So if XZ couldn't hear a 4 year old swinging from a chandelier and crashing from railing to bannister to wall to floor, how could she hear RZ call her name? Just doesn't add up.

But did Max actually fall into the bannister? Judging by the LE's reenactment and the position of the chandelier in the photos, Max would not have crashed unto it if he had hit the bannister when he fell from the railings. What kind of sound should she have heard before the big crash? Like I said, the sound of running footsteps or scooting would have been hard to hear in a three storey mansion. The carpeting alone would have served to mute or minimize any sounds of activity on the top floor.

That information you provided isn't that specific either. It could also have meant that Rebecca had already seen her sister looking down or running down the stairs to check up on what happened after hearing the loud crash, and called for her to dial 911. It doesn't say anything about Rebecca's sister still being in the shower after Max had fallen and only went outside after hearing Rebecca call her name.

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 09:27 AM
Just to give you an idea of a case involving a fall that was ruled murder:

http://www.peterson-staircase.com/coincidence.html

Now I'm not saying MS's fall was murder. I'm of the opinion that no one set out to kill MS that day. However, I am also of the opinion that the fall wasn't MS's fault and that we were not told the full story of what happened by RZ and/or XZ.

IMO

There is a thread here that discusses this case and has a link to a long and well written article. That was proven not to be a fall, but a bludgeoning murder.

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 09:29 AM
I'm glad you posted that picture. In studying it, I can't imagine how MS could have fallen with enough momentum to fall towards the chandelier (not to mention his arms wouldn't be long enough to grab it). There isn't enough room for him to fall across and have the kind of momentum he did, not to mention that he was too short to topple over it.

If he had momentum from a scooter (which I don't believe he did because of the carpeting and the fact that the scooter was found downstairs across his leg), he would have fallen towards the wall, not upwards and onto the chandelier.

Curiouser and curiouser.

IMO

Do you see the railing going up further, on the left of the picture? He was on the third (2 1/2) story when he fell. Not on the first landing.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 09:32 AM
But did Max actually fall into the bannister? Judging by the LE's reenactment and the position of the chandelier in the photos, Max would not have crashed unto it if he had hit the bannister when he fell from the railings. What kind of sound should she have heard before the big crash? Like I said, the sound of running footsteps or scooting would have been hard to hear in a three storey mansion. The carpeting alone would have served to mute or minimize any sounds of activity on the top floor.

That information you provided isn't that specific either. It could also have meant that Rebecca had already seen her sister looking down or running down the stairs to check up on what happened after hearing the loud crash, and called for her to dial 911. It doesn't say anything about Rebecca's sister still being in the shower after Max had fallen and only went outside after hearing Rebecca call her name.

They have him depicted as going from the bannister to the chandelier, then off to the side the landing, possibly crashing into the wall with the chandelier going down straight.

If RZ was in the downstairs bathroom as she alleges, she should have been able to hear scooter wheels going, or footsteps running, or some sort of evidence of what MS was doing if he had enough momentum to be fatally wounded with whiplash. My husband and I were discussing this. Little feet make a great deal of noise when they're upstairs. We can even hear our kids running when we're in the shower or in another part of the house. How in the world couldn't she hear anything but a single crash? Just a body coming into contact with a chandelier would have made one giant noise, let alone the noise from MS allegedly going over the railing (2 noises), to him hitting the wall (3 noises), to him landing on the floor (4 noises) to the crash of the chandelier (5 noises). Yet we're expected to believe she heard one final noise only. Not plausible.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 09:46 AM
They have him depicted as going from the bannister to the chandelier, then off to the side the landing, possibly crashing into the wall with the chandelier going down straight.

If RZ was in the downstairs bathroom as she alleges, she should have been able to hear scooter wheels going, or footsteps running, or some sort of evidence of what MS was doing if he had enough momentum to be fatally wounded with whiplash. My husband and I were discussing this. Little feet make a great deal of noise when they're upstairs. We can even hear our kids running when we're in the shower or in another part of the house. How in the world couldn't she hear anything but a single crash? Just a body coming into contact with a chandelier would have made one giant noise, let alone the noise from MS allegedly going over the railing (2 noises), to him hitting the wall (3 noises), to him landing on the floor (4 noises) to the crash of the chandelier (5 noises). Yet we're expected to believe she heard one final noise only. Not plausible.

IMO

Shock does strange things to people. I can guarantee if I heard a chandelier fall, I would go immediately into panic mode. We are talking seconds only, for this sequence of events to occur.

If she was in the bathroo,. I am sure the door was shut. The carpet is thick and when I had a two story house, we had thick carpet, a remnant of an older lady who had lived there before us. It was a high grade, great condition carpet. I hated the color, but lived with it, as my daughter and niece were young and I liked the idea of the thick carpet, in case they fell.

I could not hear them on the stairs unless they were goofing off, giggling, screaming, throwing things, etc. They could easily go up and down stairs in stealth mode. I also did not hear them in the hallway, which was carpeted. When they were in their bedrooms, with wood floors, I HEARD EVERY SOUND! My bedroom was under theirs! Not fun, since I worked nights.:banghead:

So, point to all this, if Max was trying to be quiet, I am sure he could have been.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 09:46 AM
First of all, other reports about the Kuwait chandelier say that it was damaged, not knocked down. Here's a link with the picture:

http://www.bananaq8.com/news/most-expensive-chandelier-in-kuwait-broken-with-a-shoes/

There is no picture of the chandelier being merely damaged, most official reports have stated that the chandelier had come falling down and crashed to the ground after being hit by the shoe. The shoe thrower was reported to have also said that he didn't it was possible to knock down a chandelier by a shoe. here's a Kuwait news link that states that the chandelier was destroyed and had crashed down to the floor:

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=ODk4Mzc2NTU2




Second of all, large chandeliers that are up that high (much, much higher than chandeliers in homes) have trigger switches to bring the chandeliers down for cleaning. IF the Kuwaiti chandelier was brought down (which most reports say it wasn't brought down or even destroyed, but only damaged), the trigger switch possibly could have been hit.

If it was entirely due to a trigger switch reacting to a hit by a shoe, it would not have detached and come crashing down to the floor.


All that said, a home chandelier most likely could not be brought down by a 45 lb. kid. There are certain regulations about how home chandeliers are hung in order for them to be safe.

Most anything can be brought down if enough force was applied on it. The chandelier in the Colorado mansion was even more delicate and flimsy looking compared to the chandelier that fell in the Kuwait mall. It is not hard to imagine that a person, even a boy that weighed 45 lb. can bring down a chandelier by crashing into it. Glass can easily break, and no matter how safe the regulations are, chandeliers aren't designed to withstand sudden crashes.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 09:54 AM
There is no picture of the chandelier being merely damaged

Yes there is. It's in the link that I posted. The photo was taken by a Kuwaiti who witnessed the incident in the mall.



If it was entirely due to a trigger switch reacting to a hit by a shoe, it would not have detached and come crashing down to the floor.


Do you know what a trigger switch is? It's a switch that literally brings the chandelier down for cleaning. If a switch is hit violently enough or jarred, it can bring the chandelier crashing down.



Most anything can be brought down if enough force was applied on it. The chandelier in the Colorado mansion was even more delicate and flimsy looking compared to the chandelier that fell in the Kuwait mall. It is not hard to imagine that a person, even a boy that weighed 45 lb. can bring down a chandelier by crashing into it. Glass can easily break, and no matter how safe the regulations are, chandeliers aren't designed to withstand sudden crashes.

It's not the question of glass breaking on a chandelier. It's a question of a chandelier being dispensed from the top, meaning the entire thing, including the harness, coming down to the ground. The AR states that the chandelier came down, not that mere pieces of it were broken. A 45 lb. boy can't remove a chandelier from the ceiling and bring it onto the ground no matter what he was doing. And for him to have the amount of momentum he needed to sustain the kidn of fatal whiplash the AR says he died from, he'd have to do a lot more than swing from a chandelier and come dropping down. Remember, besides the fatal whiplash, he has wounds on his back. Trunk wounds are not consistent with falls, according to the article I linked earlier in this thread.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 09:56 AM
We also don't know if that was there from when the house was originally built, or if it had been re-hung at a later date. Was there unseen wear and tear, or damage from previous earthquakes? That's why I wanted to see the angle looking up to the ceiling, to see how big a hole it left.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 09:57 AM
And here's a link to the depiction the police offered. They show the entire chandelier coming down:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/RZ/maxfallmark.jpg

CDS22
09-17-2011, 10:00 AM
Max had wounds on his back. Are those wounds from being pushed? The depiction shows him hitting his back on a bannister, but if his fall was broken by a hit on the bannister, it would lose the necessary momentum to create the fatal whiplash he died from.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 10:07 AM
We do know that XZ was injured enough for RZ to call her sister the nurse and ask what to do about the injuries. We also know that RZ told the dog guy that XZ was injured as MS was in the fall. I'm not disputing that the injuries could have been caused by cleaning up broken glass, but it sure would have been nice to know for sure, particularly since XZ was whisked off to another state before she could be questioned further.

I also wonder if RZ's head bumps could have been caused prior to her hanging, meaning on the Monday that MS fell.

Since the Zahau family's lawyer has thrown out planking as the cause of MS's injuries, without RZ or XZ mentioning planking to the police, it makes me wonder if XZ admitted to planking. I could see a teenager or adult perhaps bringing down a chandelier and falling on a small boy who was on the floor playing. Falls are odd things. Sometimes if someone has a landing (like another person) they can get out of it nearly unscathed. There was a case not too long ago of someone jumping out the window in an apparent suicide. They landed on the person below. The person who was landed on died from injuries. The suicidal person remained unscathed. Just a thought.

IMO

The Zahau family lawyer may have gotten her information wrong, it's possible she could have mixed up some of her facts or deliberately lied to cause controversy. It's not like this lawyer has had an upstanding reputation prior to being hired by the Zahau family. And the Zahau family may have only hired her because they had no money to be able to pay for a good lawyer. Unless it came from Rebecca herself or the Zahau family, I don't see why this planking incident should continue to be brought up as as proof that Rebecca iwas guilty of covering up a crime.

If the LE had done a thorough job, then they would have interviewed Rebecca's sister as well. The Zahaus want the case to be reopened again, so I'm sure if they had something to hide, they would be aware of the risks involved in wanting the matter to be investigated again.

Btw, if Rebecca's bumps on the head had happened on the day of Max's accident, how do you think she would have gotten them? If she had jumped down on Max and fallen on her head, the outcome would have been a lot worse for her.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 10:16 AM
The Zahau family lawyer may have gotten her information wrong, it's possible she could have mixed up some of her facts or deliberately lied to cause controversy. It's not like this lawyer has had an upstanding reputation prior to being hired by the Zahau family. And the Zahau family may have only hired her because they had no money to be able to pay for a good lawyer. Unless it came from Rebecca herself or the Zahau family, I don't see why this planking incident should continue to be brought up as as proof that Rebecca iwas guilty of covering up a crime.

If the LE had done a thorough job, then they would have interviewed Rebecca's sister as well. The Zahaus want the case to be reopened again, so I'm sure if they had something to hide, they would be aware of the risks involved in wanting the matter to be investigated again.

Btw, if Rebecca's bumps on the head had happened on the day of Max's accident, how do you think she would have gotten them? If she had jumped down on Max and fallen on her head, the outcome would have been a lot worse for her.

First of all, for a lawyer to get her facts wrong is a pretty damning thing. Second of all, the family has hired Cyril Wecht. I don't think he comes cheap. Thirdly, it's been the Zahau family and their lawyer, the ones who call themselves "Rebecca's voice", who bring up the planking, so it needs to be addressed. Fourthly, since XZ is the only one who was in the mansion the day of MS's fatal whiplash injury who is still alive, she really needs to be questioned more. Lastly, Anne Bremner refers to herself as "famous":

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/09/lawyer-of-the-day-anne-bremneri-represent-seattle-police-you-cant-arrest-me/

So is she really some fly-by-night?

Regarding RZ's head bumps being possibly linked to MS's injuries, I don't have an answer. It's just something I've been thinking about, since we know that on the same day MS was fatally injured, XZ got some injuries that needed treatment.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 10:30 AM
First of all, for a lawyer to get her facts wrong is a pretty damning thing. Second of all, the family has hired Cyril Wecht. I don't think he comes cheap. Thirdly, it's been the Zahau family and their lawyer, the ones who call themselves "Rebecca's voice", who bring up the planking, so it needs to be addressed. Fourthly, since XZ is the only one who was in the mansion the day of MS's fatal whiplash injury who is still alive, she really needs to be questioned more. Lastly, Anne Bremner refers to herself as "famous":

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/09/lawyer-of-the-day-anne-bremneri-represent-seattle-police-you-cant-arrest-me/

So is she really some fly-by-night?

Regarding RZ's head bumps being possibly linked to MS's injuries, I don't have an answer. It's just something I've been thinking about, since we know that on the same day MS was fatally injured, XZ got some injuries that needed treatment.

IMO

I'm thinking that as unfortunate as it is, a lot of lawyers get their facts wrong and I believe it is often on purpose, think Baez and Darden, just to name a couple.

We don't know yet what XZ told Bremner. We also do not have a recording or a transcript as to the questions asked of XZ concerning the event, just as we don't know if/what anyone was asked concerning Rebecca's death.

I highly doubt that Rebecca received her injuries on the same day as Max, as they were severe enough that it was possible for them to cause a loss of consciousness, which we knw did not occur.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 10:39 AM
Yes there is. It's in the link that I posted. The photo was taken by a Kuwaiti who witnessed the incident in the mall.

All I see is a picture of a Croc shoe and some red things hanging down. Where exactly is the broken chandelier still hanging at the top?

Btw, are you saying that the news reports got it wrong even though most official sites have stated that the chandelier had come crashing down rather than merely being damaged?



Do you know what a trigger switch is? It's a switch that literally brings the chandelier down for cleaning. If a switch is hit violently enough or jarred, it can bring the chandelier crashing down.

A shoe was able to violently hit a chandelier at a high enough distance to make it come crashing down. Even if it had been caused by a trigger switch, it only gets to show how sensitive chandeliers can be.



It's not the question of glass breaking on a chandelier. It's a question of a chandelier being dispensed from the top, meaning the entire thing, including the harness, coming down to the ground. The AR states that the chandelier came down, not that mere pieces of it were broken. A 45 lb. boy can't remove a chandelier from the ceiling and bring it onto the ground no matter what he was doing. And for him to have the amount of momentum he needed to sustain the kidn of fatal whiplash the AR says he died from, he'd have to do a lot more than swing from a chandelier and come dropping down. Remember, besides the fatal whiplash, he has wounds on his back. Trunk wounds are not consistent with falls, according to the article I linked earlier in this thread.

IMO


Is it entirely impossible for an entire chandelier to come crashing down if something hard collided with it? Is there any other way that the chandelier could have come crashing down besides Max falling on it?


No one could save Max, once he fell. The fatal damage was done before anyone even found him. You see, Max suffered a tragic, somewhat rare injury that was not fixable. Somewhere, during his fall, he sustained a neck hyperextension injury that essentially “unplugged” his spinal cord from his brainstem. The injury didn’t sever the cord– or cardiac arrest would have been irreversible. But the hyperextension injury stretched Max’s spinal cord in such an extreme manner, that he essentially almost unplugged his spinal cord from his brainstem. This produced the cardiac arrest at the scene. There is no amount or quality of CPR or advanced care that can overcome a shredded spinal cord at the junction of the brainstem. The fall set in motion the series of events that lead to his death 4 days later. The autopsy report confirms this. And for those who are conspiracy theorists…no assassin is that lucky; no way. It was an accident.

Why?

Because Max had absolutely NO cervical spine damage to his vertebrae. None. His neck bones were undamaged. His pivot joint, the C 1-2 atlanto-occipital joint, is intact. His skull fracture from the fall did not produce severe brain damage. No Hangman’s Fracture, no pedicle fractures, no chips, no dings, or scuffs– nothing. What Max suffered is the shredding of the top 1-2 cm of his spinal cord…a mere 3/4″. He overstretched his spinal cord and essentially unplugged it from his brainstem, to use a colloquial description. And there is no neurosurgeon on the planet that can fix that kind of damage.

But he didn’t actually “die” from that injury. He died as a result of being resuscitated.

I’m not going to go into a big discussion of the skull fracture Max sustained in his fall, or the superficial scrapes and cuts from the chandelier and the fall. It doesn’t matter. It didn’t kill him. The brain evidence in the autopsy demonstrates that other, much more serious damage, produced the chain of events that lead to Max’s death. What killed Max was a severe hyperextension of his neck that yanked his spinal cord nearly out of his brainstem. Neurosurgeons can’t fix that.


http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

The autopsy report and the hinkymeter review of the autopsy both state that Max's injuries and subsequent death was due to a fall. Now if you can tell me how it would have been possible for a petite woman with a slight limp to have had enough strength to entirely lift up and throw a 6 year old boy from the railings with enough force that he suffered from a terrible irreversible injury, then I would be more willing to accept the possibility that Rebecca may have been directly responsible for Max's fall. Max from all accounts was also an active healthy boy so he would not have gone down with a fight if he knew Rebecca was intent in killing him. Is there any evidence of a struggle between them?

rosemary
09-17-2011, 10:49 AM
Max had wounds on his back. Are those wounds from being pushed? The depiction shows him hitting his back on a bannister, but if his fall was broken by a hit on the bannister, it would lose the necessary momentum to create the fatal whiplash he died from.

Based on the pics of the chandelier and stairs, how exactly would Max have been able to hit the bannister if he had also collided with the chandelier? And if Max hadn't collided with the chandelier hard enough for it to fall, how exactly could it have fallen then?

What kind of wounds were they exactly that would be consistent with being pushed? The fall into the chandelier could also have caused the fatal injury that he died from as well. Either way, I'm really curious as to what the evidence is to support the theory that Rebecca may have killed Max by pushing or throwing him down from railings.

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 10:53 AM
All I see is a picture of a Croc shoe and some red things hanging down. Where exactly is the broken chandelier still hanging at the top?

Btw, are you saying that the news reports got it wrong even though most official sites have stated that the chandelier had come crashing down rather than merely being damaged?



A shoe was able to violently hit a chandelier at a high enough distance to make it come crashing down. Even if it had been caused by a trigger switch, it only gets to show how sensitive chandeliers can be.



Is it entirely impossible for an entire chandelier to come crashing down if something hard collided with it? Is there any other way that the chandelier could have come crashing down besides Max falling on it?



http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

The autopsy report and the hinkymeter review of the autopsy both state that Max's injuries and subsequent death was due to a fall. Now if you can tell me how it would have been possible for a petite woman with a slight limp to have had enough strength to entirely lift up and throw a 6 year old boy from the railings with enough force that he suffered from a terrible irreversible injury, then I would be more willing to accept the possibility that Rebecca may have been directly responsible for Max's fall. Max from all accounts was also an active healthy boy so he would not have gone down with a fight if he knew Rebecca was intent in killing him. Is there any evidence of a struggle between them?

I don't think LE uncovered any. I do have questions about the rotations of his fall however. It doesn't seem like a normal progression to me. face forward, land on the chandelier, change positions to your back, as you swing into the bannister on the opposite wall, turning again to land face first on the ground? Defies logic.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 11:39 AM
First of all, for a lawyer to get her facts wrong is a pretty damning thing. Second of all, the family has hired Cyril Wecht. I don't think he comes cheap. Thirdly, it's been the Zahau family and their lawyer, the ones who call themselves "Rebecca's voice", who bring up the planking, so it needs to be addressed. Fourthly, since XZ is the only one who was in the mansion the day of MS's fatal whiplash injury who is still alive, she really needs to be questioned more. Lastly, Anne Bremner refers to herself as "famous":

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/09/lawyer-of-the-day-anne-bremneri-represent-seattle-police-you-cant-arrest-me/

Cyril Wecht has been known to reduce his fee if he finds a particular case interesting enough. Maybe he made the same deal with the Zahaus. I seriously doubt the Zahaus, who came to America as refugees, are rich enough to afford hiring top lawyers and top pathologists without some sort of reduced fee deal or pro bono case going on. Btw, when did Rebecca's family ever say that it was to planking that caused Max to fall from the stairs? I've only ever heard the lawyer say it that one time. I read an interview of one of Rebecca's sisters, and she made no mention of the word planking. All I see here is a family that is hurting and bewildered over what happened to their sister and daughter.The police attitude towards them was completely appalling imo, from the beginning of the case to the end of it. It is entirely reasonable to want some answers as to why and how a person, especially a loved one, could have died in such a violent and unusual way. IF the LE have not bothered questioning Rebecca's sister about what happened on that day, then yes I agree that they should reopen this case as well.. Imo, the whole police investigation looks more and more shoddy.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 11:45 AM
What also interests me is Max and the tranquilizer. Here's how the false positive was explained:


http://www.cbs8.com/story/15398193/toxicologist-test-showing-tranquilizer-in-shacknai-boys-blood-likely-a-false-positive?clienttype=printable

So we know MS may have had a miniscule amount of a tranquilizer in his system, such a small amount that it wouldn't even have shown up on a second test, nor would it be responsible for his fall. But it does make me wonder if someone had previously sedated the boy. It's just one of those things that make you go hmmmm.

IMO

if someone had previously sedated the boy, the tranquilizer would have shown up in larger amounts in his system. Max was taken straight to the hospital on the day that he had fallen from the stairs. It wouldn't have been able to disappear from his system that fast. The tests show that the first reading could have been a false positive, meaning that there were actually no traces of tranquilizer at all, or that the amount was so miniscule that it is considered insignificant to be of concern.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 12:06 PM
Btw, can someone else come up with an entirely different theory on how Max could have ended up with his injuries? I really am curious if there might be another possibility, another angle that the LE and the ME might have missed or ignored in Max's accident. Is there evidence of any injuries listed on the autopsy report that is not consistent with a fall? Are the police completely certain that Rebecca and her sister were only ones in the house when the accident happened? Would it have been possible for a person to have sneaked in without getting detected? Were any of the windows or doors unlocked or open at that time of the incident?

thinkingstraight
09-17-2011, 01:12 PM
We are breaking down Max's accident. It's my theory that, yes, she did have something to do with it or KNEW exactly what happened, that it was still an accident but she lied as to not catch grief from family.

rosemary
09-17-2011, 01:25 PM
We are breaking down Max's accident. It's my theory that, yes, she did have something to do with it or KNEW exactly what happened, that it was still an accident but she lied as to not catch grief from family.

I think that's a good possibility, but I do wonder, if what CD22 said was true, why the police wouldn't have questioned Rebecca's sister as well.

JBean
09-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Hi Guys. You all have got to be careful when quoting posts. The quotes in the posts above this one are all broken and that leads to real confusion regarding who said what to whom.

If you see a broken quote-please alert on it and please do not carry it by quoting it again!
Give me a minute to fix these but I have to go back thru the thread and find out who actually said what and it is a very tedious task. Typically we just remove them, but I am going to try to set this right.

Please take care when quoting. thanks.

thinkingstraight
09-17-2011, 01:44 PM
I'm sorry! Seems all I do on this board is apologize. Why am I the one to always get in trouble? I'm NEW!

JBean
09-17-2011, 01:50 PM
I'm sorry! Seems all I do on this board is apologize. Why am I the one to always get in trouble? I'm NEW!
Trust me when I tell you it is not aways new people :) LOL.
You're fine.
For everyone:
If you snip a quoted post and do not quote in its entirety-you must make sure you note that it is snipped. Then if the quote is not clearly posted as
a quote it means you snipped one of the opening or closing tags. Please repair!
go to: edit post
go advanced
add whatever tag is missing or broken. You should see a [ quote](with no spaces) at the beginning of the quote and an [/ quote](with no spaces at the end of the passage. if they are not there just add them manually.

thanks.

October
09-17-2011, 01:59 PM
I have a hard time believing that Rebecca was strong enough to lift Max over the railing and throw him hard enough that he hit the banister on the other side. I'm taller and heavier than her, physically fit, but I don't think I could do that with my daughter, who weighs almost 10 lbs less than Max. The boy was almost half of her weight! Unless she had been doing some major strength training, I just don't buy it.

I also have a hard time imagining her hurting him intentionally. I lean more towards thinking that it was an accident that constant supervision could have prevented. Since I don't think constant supervision of a 6 year old is realistic or needed, I'm not sure what she could have done.

thinkingstraight
09-17-2011, 02:02 PM
I think you are right October.
It sounds like she was hanging by a thread (no pun intended) w this family. And then the horrific accident happens. She tries to stay in the game as best she can but the family demands a CAUSE. They need answers to why this beloved boy is going to die. She feels persecuted on top of feeling left out. Abandoned by Jonah was the last straw. This is probably the wrong thread but like weve said before. These two incidents are related

jjenny
09-17-2011, 02:26 PM
I think you are right October.
It sounds like she was hanging by a thread (no pun intended) w this family. And then the horrific accident happens. She tries to stay in the game as best she can but the family demands a CAUSE. They need answers to why this beloved boy is going to die. She feels persecuted on top of feeling left out. Abandoned by Jonah was the last straw. This is probably the wrong thread but like weve said before. These two incidents are related

So why didn't she pack up her bags and get the h*ll out of dodge? We also have her communicating with her sister that whole evening, but after she listened to the voice mail which apparently made her to decide to kill herself, she doesn't even send a text to her sister?

CDS22
09-17-2011, 02:31 PM
All I see is a picture of a Croc shoe and some red things hanging down. Where exactly is the broken chandelier still hanging at the top?

Btw, are you saying that the news reports got it wrong even though most official sites have stated that the chandelier had come crashing down rather than merely being damaged?



A shoe was able to violently hit a chandelier at a high enough distance to make it come crashing down. Even if it had been caused by a trigger switch, it only gets to show how sensitive chandeliers can be.



Is it entirely impossible for an entire chandelier to come crashing down if something hard collided with it? Is there any other way that the chandelier could have come crashing down besides Max falling on it?



http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

The autopsy report and the hinkymeter review of the autopsy both state that Max's injuries and subsequent death was due to a fall. Now if you can tell me how it would have been possible for a petite woman with a slight limp to have had enough strength to entirely lift up and throw a 6 year old boy from the railings with enough force that he suffered from a terrible irreversible injury, then I would be more willing to accept the possibility that Rebecca may have been directly responsible for Max's fall. Max from all accounts was also an active healthy boy so he would not have gone down with a fight if he knew Rebecca was intent in killing him. Is there any evidence of a struggle between them?

I don't think anyone could throw Max and get the amount of velocity needed for such an injury. To be frank, I never entertained the thought of RZ or anyone throwing him.

thinkingstraight
09-17-2011, 02:37 PM
So why didn't she pack up her bags and get the h*ll out of dodge? We also have her communicating with her sister that whole evening, but after she listened to the voice mail which apparently made her to decide to kill herself, she doesn't even send a text to her sister?

Because leaving him would probably give him what he wanted. I think she was angry. I also think she might have downplayed the severity of her OWN situation to save face in front of her sister or maybe even denial. Again, this is the wrong thread and I dont want to get in trouble anymore!

jjenny
09-17-2011, 02:41 PM
Because leaving him would probably give him what he wanted. I think she was angry. I also think she might have downplayed the severity of her OWN situation to save face in front of her sister or maybe even denial. Again, this is the wrong thread and I dont want to get in trouble anymore!

Leaving him would give him what he wanted, as opposed to what? Killing herself?

thinkingstraight
09-17-2011, 02:47 PM
IMO he told her Max was going to die soon, that it was her fault and to get out of his house and life. He didn't want her dead, he wanted her gone and hell hath no fury etc. .

CDS22
09-17-2011, 03:19 PM
if someone had previously sedated the boy, the tranquilizer would have shown up in larger amounts in his system. Max was taken straight to the hospital on the day that he had fallen from the stairs. It wouldn't have been able to disappear from his system that fast. The tests show that the first reading could have been a false positive, meaning that there were actually no traces of tranquilizer at all, or that the amount was so miniscule that it is considered insignificant to be of concern.

It depends how long ago the sedation was in his system, if it ever was. Since the child was never prescribed any drugs, he shouldn't have had even a trace amount of it in his system.

jjenny
09-17-2011, 03:29 PM
It depends how long ago the sedation was in his system, if it ever was. Since the child was never prescribed any drugs, he shouldn't have had even a trace amount of it in his system.

How do you know the child was never prescribed any drugs? Benzos can be prescribed to children for a wide variety of reasons.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 03:29 PM
Because leaving him would probably give him what he wanted. I think she was angry. I also think she might have downplayed the severity of her OWN situation to save face in front of her sister or maybe even denial. Again, this is the wrong thread and I dont want to get in trouble anymore!

I agree with you about the possiblity that RZ downplayed the severity of the situation to her sister. I also think she might have downplayed or altered what happened to the police, because the whole thing doesn't make sense. I wish that the police had gotten her and XZ to take a lie detector test, although they probably don't do those on minors.

jjenny
09-17-2011, 03:32 PM
I agree with you about the possiblity that RZ downplayed the severity of the situation to her sister. I also think she might have downplayed or altered what happened to the police, because the whole thing doesn't make sense. I wish that the police had gotten her and XZ to take a lie detector test, although they probably don't do those on minors.

Well since RN is dead, there is no chance of giving her a lie detector test. But there are a few people I wish police gave those tests to regarding RN's untimely demise.

deanna82437
09-17-2011, 03:33 PM
It depends how long ago the sedation was in his system, if it ever was. Since the child was never prescribed any drugs, he shouldn't have had even a trace amount of it in his system.

BBM
Do we know for a fact that he was never prescribed any drugs, though? Is there a link somewhere that states that? If so, I must have missed it.
TIA

jjenny
09-17-2011, 03:34 PM
BBM
Do we know for a fact that he was never prescribed any drugs, though? Is there a link somewhere that states that? If so, I must have missed it.
TIA

Nope. No link whatsoever.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 03:37 PM
How do you know the child was never prescribed any drugs? Benzos can be prescribed to children for a wide variety of reasons.

The AR. If he had been on any prescribed medication for any condition it would have been listed.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 03:39 PM
BBM
Do we know for a fact that he was never prescribed any drugs, though? Is there a link somewhere that states that? If so, I must have missed it.
TIA

The AR mentions twice his unremarkable medical history. That means that if he had any medical issues or had been prescribed any recent medications, it would be listed. You can find the link to the AR in the first post of this thread.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 03:40 PM
IMO he told her Max was going to die soon, that it was her fault and to get out of his house and life. He didn't want her dead, he wanted her gone and hell hath no fury etc. .

This would be a good post for the "Why you think it might be suicide" thread. I happen to agree with you.

jjenny
09-17-2011, 03:41 PM
The AR. If he had been on any prescribed medication for any condition it would have been listed.

He was clearly given meds while in the hospital but I don't see all of those listed. So what makes you think his prescriptions had to be listed?

CDS22
09-17-2011, 03:44 PM
I have a hard time believing that Rebecca was strong enough to lift Max over the railing and throw him hard enough that he hit the banister on the other side. I'm taller and heavier than her, physically fit, but I don't think I could do that with my daughter, who weighs almost 10 lbs less than Max. The boy was almost half of her weight! Unless she had been doing some major strength training, I just don't buy it.

I also have a hard time imagining her hurting him intentionally. I lean more towards thinking that it was an accident that constant supervision could have prevented. Since I don't think constant supervision of a 6 year old is realistic or needed, I'm not sure what she could have done.

I personally don't think MS was thrown over by a person, but I do think that RZ and even XZ could have done it. You should see some of the crazy things that some kids can do to others, including lifting and throwing them. If a 60 lb child could throw a 45 lb child, I have no problem believing RZ or XZ could have done it. However, I don't think they did. Just my opinion.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 03:45 PM
He was clearly given meds while in the hospital but I don't see all of those listed. So what makes you think his prescriptions had to be listed?

Medications given prior to MS's hospitalization would have been listed in his medical history in the AR as opposed to simply stating, twice, that he had an unremarkable medical history.

deanna82437
09-17-2011, 03:45 PM
The AR mentions twice his unremarkable medical history. That means that if he had any medical issues or had been prescribed any recent medications, it would be listed. You can find the link to the AR in the first post of this thread.

I have his AR in another window, but do not see any second reference to no medications. What I do see on page 3 is that they had at one point suspected a heart murmur. Would appreciate a page# if you have it.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 03:50 PM
I have his AR in another window, but do not see any second reference to no medications. What I do see on page 3 is that they had at one point suspected a heart murmur. Would appreciate a page# if you have it.

I believe it's page 5, and that time it says "insignificant medical history" instead of unremarkable.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 03:54 PM
What bothers me in reading the AR is the amount of bruising on the rest of his body. I believe it's pages 9-10 in the PDF reader, and pages 5-7 on the actual pages of the report.

deanna82437
09-17-2011, 04:00 PM
I believe it's page 5, and that time it says "insignificant medical history" instead of unremarkable.

It's actually page 2 of the AR which still suggests the heart murmur which had not been followed up on. I must disagree with you though, on your assumption as to absolutely no medications prescribed to him. IMO, I don't see the AR as being that conclusive of same.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 04:14 PM
It's actually page 2 of the AR which still suggests the heart murmur which had not been followed up on. I must disagree with you though, on your assumption as to absolutely no medications prescribed to him. IMO, I don't see the AR as being that conclusive of same.

We specifically know the tranquilizer was not prescribed to him because if it was, it would have said such-and-such amount of drug was found in his system and prescribed for such-and-such and was taken last at such-and-such time. They also wouldn't have been surprised it was in his body.

jjenny
09-17-2011, 04:15 PM
We specifically know the tranquilizer was not prescribed to him because if it was, it would have said such-and-such amount of drug was found in his system and prescribed for such-and-such and was taken last at such-and-such time. They also wouldn't have been surprised it was in his body.

What was in his body? We know that he actually didn't have the "tranquilizer" in his system because the second test showed there was no tranquilizer in his system. The first test was false positive, so all of this discussion is moot.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 04:18 PM
What was in his body? We know that he actually didn't have the "tranquilizer" in his system because the second test showed there was no tranquilizer in his system. The first test was false positive, so all of this discussion is moot.

I posted a link earlier in this thread that states that the second test might have come clean because either there was a false positive OR because there was too small a trace of drug in his body to be detected. Remember, time elapsed between the first and second blood test which would give the drug enough time to leave his system, IF the amount was small enough.

IMO

JBean
09-17-2011, 04:25 PM
I posted a link earlier in this thread that states that the second test might have come clean because either there was a false positive OR because there was too small a trace of drug in his body to be detected. Remember, time elapsed between the first and second blood test which would give the drug enough time to leave his system, IF the amount was small enough.

IMO
Do forensic blood (or other) tests change significantly after time? ( not including error or false positives)

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 04:28 PM
Because leaving him would probably give him what he wanted. I think she was angry. I also think she might have downplayed the severity of her OWN situation to save face in front of her sister or maybe even denial. Again, this is the wrong thread and I dont want to get in trouble anymore!

I am sorry, but by the time someone is 32, I hope they have learned that if you have to play games, you are not with the right person.

This is imo only and I am not trying to bash you, but looking at Rebecca, an adult, able to make her own decisions, free to come and go at will, I can not see her not leaving, because it might 'give him what he wanted'. Since it was JS home, he could have easily gotten that, if it was what he wanted.


What was in his body? We know that he actually didn't have the "tranquilizer" in his system because the second test showed there was no tranquilizer in his system. The first test was false positive, so all of this discussion is moot.

If you look at the dates, the second test was MUCH later. The medication would have left Max's body anyway by then, whether it was present the day of the accident or not, imho.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 04:29 PM
Do forensic blood (or other) tests change significantly after time? ( not including error or false positives)

I don't know what you're asking.

JBean
09-17-2011, 04:32 PM
I don't know what you're asking.
well if tests are done after death and the system is not processing anything, I am wondering if toxicology levels change significantly with time as they do in the living.

jjenny
09-17-2011, 04:35 PM
...



If you look at the dates, the second test was MUCH later. The medication would have left Max's body anyway by then, whether it was present the day of the accident or not, imho.

I presume they tested the same sample they have taken upon his arrival to the hospital.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 04:40 PM
well if tests are done after death and the system is not processing anything, I am wondering if toxicology levels change significantly with time as they do in the living.

I'm sorry, I have no idea.

CocoChanel
09-17-2011, 04:42 PM
Max had wounds on his back. Are those wounds from being pushed? The depiction shows him hitting his back on a bannister, but if his fall was broken by a hit on the bannister, it would lose the necessary momentum to create the fatal whiplash he died from.

BBM
With all due respect, this reads as a statement of fact, and I don't see how it COULD be a verified fact in this case. I would guess that you mean this as your OPINION but don't specifically say that. The way it is written it reads as though it is a given fact, yet I don't think that is true since there is nothing I've seen to support it as fact. Perhaps I have missed a link or a verification that you are WS-approved as a professional poster knowledgeable in this area? Please know I am only trying to understand Max's tragic death, and the basis of what is posted here. I apologize if I have missed the elements I mentioned that would lend credence to such a statement.

Rhyme & Reason
09-17-2011, 04:56 PM
I'm glad you posted that picture. In studying it, I can't imagine how MS could have fallen with enough momentum to fall towards the chandelier (not to mention his arms wouldn't be long enough to grab it). There isn't enough room for him to fall across and have the kind of momentum he did, not to mention that he was too short to topple over it.

If he had momentum from a scooter (which I don't believe he did because of the carpeting and the fact that the scooter was found downstairs across his leg), he would have fallen towards the wall, not upwards and onto the chandelier.

Curiouser and curiouser.

IMO

But he didn't fall from the railing shown in this picture, he fell from the railing higher up on the 2nd floor.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 05:05 PM
But he didn't fall from the railing shown in this picture, he fell from the railing higher up on the 2nd floor.

Yes, but if he made the hits and bumps on the way down as depicted in the illustrations the police provided, he wouldn't have the velocity to have the injuries he did, IMO. If you look at the link on the Hinky Meter posted earlier in this thread, it will have some info and equations about velocity.

CDS22
09-17-2011, 05:08 PM
BBM
With all due respect, this reads as a statement of fact, and I don't see how it COULD be a verified fact in this case. I would guess that you mean this as your OPINION but don't specifically say that. The way it is written it reads as though it is a given fact, yet I don't think that is true since there is nothing I've seen to support it as fact. Perhaps I have missed a link or a verification that you are WS-approved as a professional poster knowledgeable in this area? Please know I am only trying to understand Max's tragic death, and the basis of what is posted here. I apologize if I have missed the elements I mentioned that would lend credence to such a statement.

Sorry, I'm referring to a link posted earlier in the thread with the necessary equations:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 05:11 PM
I presume they tested the same sample they have taken upon his arrival to the hospital.

Jenny, they would normally draw a new sample. Where I work, if the child was not on prescription, or over the counter medications that would make the test 'positive', it would be re run on the same sample as well as redrawing of the patient.

JBean, even if a person dies, some of the medication will still leave the body. There are exceptions of course, but that is why timely lab work is so crucial. Some drugs have a very quick 1/2 life, like benzodiazepines, so they leave the system fast. Others, like pot, get stored in the fat in the body and releases as you burn fat. So, whether or not it would be detected long term, is dependent upon the amount and type of drug.

curiousjo
09-17-2011, 05:24 PM
-Many people have a benign heart murmur - so not significant.
-Benzodiazepine drug test was FALSE positive - so not significant.
(The paramedics most likely gave him Versed when he was intubated, and this caused the false result)
-How could a petite woman have the strength/momentum to propel 50 pound boy all the way across the staircase? Wouldn't he have just gone straight down with gravity?

Lets not make up evidence! IF we have a positive tox screen and want to verify if true- then test reordered that day. At this point, we know the first tox screen was positive, then confirmed negative - so false positive. (OR, you look to see what the paramedics/doctors ordered and voila - benzo ordered and obvious reason for false positive. )Then, the autopsy performed several days later also returned negative for Benzo's detection. A final confirmation of negative drug in system. IF present, the drug would have still been detectable. End of story.

RNs sister said she did not feel guilty, as this was an accidnent. IF she did commit suicide - why would she write, "She(RN) saved him(MS)"... why not I am sorry for what happened? Doesn't fit.

stilettos
09-17-2011, 05:30 PM
-Many people have a benign heart murmur - so not significant.
-Benzodiazepine drug test was FALSE positive - so not significant.
(They may have given him Versed when he was intubated, and this caused the false result)
-How could a petite woman have the strength/momentum to propel 50 pound boy all the way across the staircase? Wouldn't he have just gone straight down with gravity?

Lets not make up evidence!

RNs sister said she did not feel guilty, as this was an accidnent. IF she did commit suicide - why would she write, "She(RN) saved him(MS)"... why not I am sorry for what happened? Doesn't fit.

In my mind the pronoun usage leads me to think it is someone other than RN writing the message. Not sure what in the he77 LE is thinking.:waitasec:

CDS22
09-17-2011, 05:34 PM
It's not too late for the authorities to do some more investigation into this case. I wish they would re-open it, starting with questioning XZ further.

JBean
09-17-2011, 05:38 PM
Jenny, they would normally draw a new sample. Where I work, if the child was not on prescription, or over the counter medications that would make the test 'positive', it would be re run on the same sample as well as redrawing of the patient.

JBean, even if a person dies, some of the medication will still leave the body. There are exceptions of course, but that is why timely lab work is so crucial. Some drugs have a very quick 1/2 life, like benzodiazepines, so they leave the system fast. Others, like pot, get stored in the fat in the body and releases as you burn fat. So, whether or not it would be detected long term, is dependent upon the amount and type of drug.
How does the medication leave the body after death? I thought meds typically leave the body through breath,liver,kidney and urine.Don't want to get too far OT but just wondering how drugs can leave the system if someone is dead and body is no longer functioning. Thanks Sunnie.

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 08:48 PM
We specifically know the tranquilizer was not prescribed to him because if it was, it would have said such-and-such amount of drug was found in his system and prescribed for such-and-such and was taken last at such-and-such time. They also wouldn't have been surprised it was in his body.

I am not confident in the ME report in many areas for either Max or Rebecca, so I am not certain that it would say prescribed for such and such etc.


How does the medication leave the body after death? I thought meds typically leave the body through breath,liver,kidney and urine.Don't want to get too far OT but just wondering how drugs can leave the system if someone is dead and body is no longer functioning. Thanks Sunnie.

Sorry, poor wording. You are correct, that drugs leave the human system in those ways. In my mind I was thinking about the 1/2 life and efficacy of a drug. For example, pain medication, dilaudid. It can be given IV, by mouth as a tablet, or sub-cutaneousy as a shot with a small needle. The 1/2 life of dilaudid, iv or sq, is the same. It is the same drug, same form, same vial. It looses its effectiveness in the same amount of time, whether a patient is alive or dead. It will still be present in the body, in blood or tissue, but will be ineffective. As a tablet, the onset is longer, but the effects are usually longer acting also. Sorry, as my mind knew what I meant, but I certainly did not explain that well.:crazy:

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 08:54 PM
-Many people have a benign heart murmur - so not significant.
-Benzodiazepine drug test was FALSE positive - so not significant.
(The paramedics most likely gave him Versed when he was intubated, and this caused the false result)
-How could a petite woman have the strength/momentum to propel 50 pound boy all the way across the staircase? Wouldn't he have just gone straight down with gravity?

Lets not make up evidence! IF we have a positive tox screen and want to verify if true- then test reordered that day. At this point, we know the first tox screen was positive, then confirmed negative - so false positive. (OR, you look to see what the paramedics/doctors ordered and voila - benzo ordered and obvious reason for false positive. )Then, the autopsy performed several days later also returned negative for Benzo's detection. A final confirmation of negative drug in system. IF present, the drug would have still been detectable. End of story.

RNs sister said she did not feel guilty, as this was an accidnent. IF she did commit suicide - why would she write, "She(RN) saved him(MS)"... why not I am sorry for what happened? Doesn't fit.


Excellent post and point well taken. I just have one thing I would like to add. Our ems guys are top notch. Most of them have been in the army as medics and are impressive, and that is an understatement.

When they are out in the field, when they start an iv, they often draw lab work as they are starting the iv, bring it to er with the patient and boom, as the patient rolls in, the lab work is already in the tube system heading to the lab for interpretation.

Before ems personnel intubated Max, I think they would have established a line, potentially drawing labs in the process. So, if these labs were drawn prior to intubation, there should not have been versed present.

Since I wasn't there and have no idea if Coronado fire and rescue draws labs, versed could well be the culprit, if labs were drawn after he was intubated.

Just my :twocents: and my 'fun' times on patient runs following patient transports.

KarenM
09-17-2011, 11:41 PM
Jenny, they would normally draw a new sample. Where I work, if the child was not on prescription, or over the counter medications that would make the test 'positive', it would be re run on the same sample as well as redrawing of the patient.



The confirmatory test was done on the same sample drawn upon MS's admission to the hospital. "That second test used an analysis method called HPLD/DAD (high-performance liquid chromatography) to check for traces of benzodiazepines in Max's blood samples, which were collected upon the boy's arrival at the hospital following his fall."
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15398193/toxicologist-test-showing-tranquilizer-in-shacknai-boys-blood-likely-a-false-positive

KarenM
09-17-2011, 11:54 PM
No one will throw a kid from the second floor to commit murder. 99% of the chance the kid will not die but survive to tell the story. Little Max was extremely unlucky that his spinal cord was unplugged from his brain stem. But as KZ analyzed, no assasin will be that lucky or can expect to be that lucky.

SunnieRN
09-18-2011, 12:11 AM
Hi Karen, and :welcome: to websleuths!!!!!

CDS22
09-18-2011, 01:57 PM
I don't think anyone set out to murder MS that day. I think his accident was an accident, but I also think there's a lot more to this case than anyone is revealing. The police might even know more and have decided not to release the information to protect a minor, or because RZ is dead.

IMO

Peaceful
09-18-2011, 03:00 PM
I have a very hard time imagining anyone purposely hurting MS. He was only 6 years old. I can't see how anyone could have hurt him, however, the explanation that has been provided just flat out doesn't make any sense and has been proven incorrect. (Thanks Val Hall, hinkymeter)

Then we have the RZ case. I see Rebecca's family FIGHTING for answer's and Max's family basically silent. IMO, that is very strange. If I had the financial resources that JS has, I would certainly want a better understanding of what has happened to both my girlfriend and son. In fact, I would be screaming from the tree tops demanding to know what happened. He loved them both. It was quoted that JS said at her funeral he didn't think she would commit suicide. (radaronline), Why, when all of this doesn't add up, is he "accepting" the scenarios provided?

I want the person who has the capacity and wealth to get answers to stand up and help get them. That may be wrong but it is how I feel. IMO

CDS22
09-18-2011, 03:32 PM
I have a very hard time imagining anyone purposely hurting MS. He was only 6 years old. I can't see how anyone could have hurt him, however, the explanation that has been provided just flat out doesn't make any sense and has been proven incorrect. (Thanks Val Hall, hinkymeter)

Then we have the RZ case. I see Rebecca's family FIGHTING for answer's and Max's family basically silent. IMO, that is very strange. If I had the financial resources that JS has, I would certainly want a better understanding of what has happened to both my girlfriend and son. In fact, I would be screaming from the tree tops demanding to know what happened. He loved them both. It was quoted that JS said at her funeral he didn't think she would commit suicide. (radaronline), Why, when all of this doesn't add up, is he "accepting" the scenarios provided?

I want the person who has the capacity and wealth to get answers to stand up and help get them. That may be wrong but it is how I feel. IMO

Perhaps there is more information that the police have shared with him but declined to make public out of respect for the family. Or perhaps he has hired someone to look into this further but has not advertised that either.

JMO

thinkingstraight
09-18-2011, 03:55 PM
I think that it's more the public is screaming from the rooftops because the information we were allowed to have didn't add up. For that, i do blame LE. They shouldnt have thought the public so stupid.

Morag
09-18-2011, 04:14 PM
I don't think anyone set out to murder MS that day. I think his accident was an accident, but I also think there's a lot more to this case than anyone is revealing. The police might even know more and have decided not to release the information to protect a minor, or because RZ is dead.

IMO

What minor would that be? Minor XZ's family is anxious for information. If she needs protecting, why would they want to get the information out in public view?

CDS22
09-18-2011, 04:18 PM
What minor would that be? Minor XZ's family is anxious for information. If she needs protecting, why would they want to get the information out in public view?

I'm not sure they realize what sort of information would come out.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-18-2011, 04:23 PM
I'm not sure they realize what sort of information would come out.

IMO

If you don't mind, I would like to hear you elaborate on this thought. Are you speaking about XZ and information concerning her?

MyBelle
09-18-2011, 04:33 PM
I have a very hard time imagining anyone purposely hurting MS. He was only 6 years old. I can't see how anyone could have hurt him, however, the explanation that has been provided just flat out doesn't make any sense and has been proven incorrect. (Thanks Val Hall, hinkymeter)

Then we have the RZ case. I see Rebecca's family FIGHTING for answer's and Max's family basically silent. IMO, that is very strange. If I had the financial resources that JS has, I would certainly want a better understanding of what has happened to both my girlfriend and son. In fact, I would be screaming from the tree tops demanding to know what happened. He loved them both. It was quoted that JS said at her funeral he didn't think she would commit suicide. (radaronline), Why, when all of this doesn't add up, is he "accepting" the scenarios provided?

I want the person who has the capacity and wealth to get answers to stand up and help get them. That may be wrong but it is how I feel. IMO

I think JS does accept the suicide ruling. I know of several suicides that family and friends didn't see coming.

All the wealth in the world won't buy answers if they no longer exist, especially when it comes to Max's fall and what really happened.

JMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-18-2011, 04:36 PM
Yes, but if he made the hits and bumps on the way down as depicted in the illustrations the police provided, he wouldn't have the velocity to have the injuries he did, IMO. If you look at the link on the Hinky Meter posted earlier in this thread, it will have some info and equations about velocity.

I've read all the Hinky Meter reports, thanks. Been a fan a them for quite some time. However, you keep stating as fact that max flew UP in the air from below the chandelier.

Rhyme & Reason
09-18-2011, 04:51 PM
I have a very hard time imagining anyone purposely hurting MS. He was only 6 years old. I can't see how anyone could have hurt him, however, the explanation that has been provided just flat out doesn't make any sense and has been proven incorrect. (Thanks Val Hall, hinkymeter)

Then we have the RZ case. I see Rebecca's family FIGHTING for answer's and Max's family basically silent. IMO, that is very strange. If I had the financial resources that JS has, I would certainly want a better understanding of what has happened to both my girlfriend and son. In fact, I would be screaming from the tree tops demanding to know what happened. He loved them both. It was quoted that JS said at her funeral he didn't think she would commit suicide. (radaronline), Why, when all of this doesn't add up, is he "accepting" the scenarios provided?

I want the person who has the capacity and wealth to get answers to stand up and help get them. That may be wrong but it is how I feel. IMO

:clap: :goodpost: :clap:

CDS22
09-18-2011, 04:56 PM
I've read all the Hinky Meter reports, thanks. Been a fan a them for quite some time. However, you keep stating as fact that max flew UP in the air from below the chandelier.

I've never stated MS flew UP from below the chandelier. Let's not be ridiculous here.

Morag
09-18-2011, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Morag
What minor would that be? Minor XZ's family is anxious for information. If she needs protecting, why would they want to get the information out in public view?


I'm not sure they realize what sort of information would come out.

IMO

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Do you think that she has withheld information from her family and their attorney?

CDS22
09-18-2011, 06:29 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Do you think that she has withheld information from her family and their attorney?

Everyone's family has skeletons in the closet. When you open an investigation wide open, there's no telling what will come out.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-18-2011, 07:37 PM
I truly do not think Rebecca's family cares about skeletons. They want to be assured that what has been decided, is in fact the truth.

CocoChanel
09-18-2011, 09:34 PM
Everyone's family has skeletons in the closet. When you open an investigation wide open, there's no telling what will come out.

IMO

Would you agree that EVERYONE in your quote includes JS too?

rosemary
09-19-2011, 03:17 AM
Everyone's family has skeletons in the closet. When you open an investigation wide open, there's no telling what will come out.

IMO

If Rebecca's family didn't want any hidden family skeletons to be revealed or exposed, why would they want to hire a forensic psychologist to analyze the case then? A psychological profile can reveal a lot of things, both good and bad, about the victim and his/her family.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 08:22 AM
If Rebecca's family didn't want any hidden family skeletons to be revealed or exposed, why would they want to hire a forensic psychologist to analyze the case then? A psychological profile can reveal a lot of things, both good and bad, about the victim and his/her family.

I sincerely think they don't realize what they're in for, and I also think they are gearing up for a civil suit which a lawyer might have convinced them would be easy to win. I don't think they are thinking of the implications for XZ.

IMO

stilettos
09-19-2011, 08:39 AM
Everyone's family has skeletons in the closet. When you open an investigation wide open, there's no telling what will come out.

IMO

Yes, this is true..and exactly why Mr. Schacknai immediately hired a PR firm, PI and I believe a very well connected attorney for his brother. IMO, Mr. Schacknai is the one that may have the most skeletons in his closet...including but not limited to when his older daughter was last in his Coronado home and how, on what and exactly what time she flew home from there on the day his son died. Including why his brother was rushed out of the area and sent who knows where with a muzzle on him. IF there is info in the family of the victim Rebecca...let that come forward as well. The preceding is as always, MOO.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 08:45 AM
Yes, this is true..and exactly why Mr. Schacknai immediately hired a PR firm, PI and I believe a very well connected attorney for his brother. IMO, Mr. Schacknai is the one that may have the most skeletons in his closet...including but not limited to when his older daughter was last in his Coronado home and how, on what and exactly what time she flew home from there on the day his son died. Including why his brother was rushed out of the area and sent who knows where with a muzzle on him. IF there is info in the family of the victim Rebecca...let that come forward as well. The preceding is as always, MOO.

Okay, just deleted what I wrote. I realize to which PR firm you're referring.

JS has a business to run, and a family to support, althought there's one less family member now due to tragic events. I can see why he'd hire a PR firm because there's been so many false things said about him.

JMO

CDS22
09-19-2011, 08:50 AM
Yes, this is true..and exactly why Mr. Schacknai immediately hired a PR firm, PI and I believe a very well connected attorney for his brother. IMO, Mr. Schacknai is the one that may have the most skeletons in his closet...including but not limited to when his older daughter was last in his Coronado home and how, on what and exactly what time she flew home from there on the day his son died. Including why his brother was rushed out of the area and sent who knows where with a muzzle on him. IF there is info in the family of the victim Rebecca...let that come forward as well. The preceding is as always, MOO.

According to police reports, GS wasn't in the house at the time of the accident. The stories about GS being in the house were from people gossiping, never from officials themselves. I believe the mix up happened because RZ referred to XZ as her daughter (who knows, maybe she is her daughter), and MS as her son. People assumed that meant GS. They also assumed DS was around because RZ referred to herself as MS's mother and JS's wife. Kind of weird, if you ask me, and also not very truthful.

JMO

jjenny
09-19-2011, 09:45 AM
According to police reports, GS wasn't in the house at the time of the accident. The stories about GS being in the house were from people gossiping, never from officials themselves. I believe the mix up happened because RZ referred to XZ as her daughter (who knows, maybe she is her daughter), and MS as her son. People assumed that meant GS. They also assumed DS was around because RZ referred to herself as MS's mother and JS's wife. Kind of weird, if you ask me, and also not very truthful.

JMO

The story about GS being in town comes from her friend who said she was in Coronado but left before paramedics arrived. And it amazes me that in this instance you claim to believe the police reports but still argue the accident didn't happen as police reports say it did.

rosemary
09-19-2011, 09:49 AM
I sincerely think they don't realize what they're in for, and I also think they are gearing up for a civil suit which a lawyer might have convinced them would be easy to win. I don't think they are thinking of the implications for XZ.

IMO

The implications for XZ? what exactly are the implications for XZ? Do you know something about Rebecca's younger sister that the rest of us are not aware of? If there is, I'm sure the Zahau family are smart enough to know what the risks/implications are if they get this case reopened. And what makes you think that they are gearing up for a civil suit? Just because they are seeking answers regarding the circumstances of Rebecca's death doesn't mean that they are after any sort of financial compensation. There is nothing at all to suggest that they are even thinking of doing that imo.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 10:12 AM
The story about GS being in town comes from her friend who said she was in Coronado but left before paramedics arrived. And it amazes me that in this instance you claim to believe the police reports but still argue the accident didn't happen as police reports say it did.

A friend's statement isn't very meaningful compared to an official report, now is it?

I believe some aspects of the police reports (who was in the room when they entered, for example), but that doesn't mean I agree with their conclusions, or believe that they've included every iota of information in publicly released reports.

rosemary
09-19-2011, 10:14 AM
According to police reports, GS wasn't in the house at the time of the accident. The stories about GS being in the house were from people gossiping, never from officials themselves. I believe the mix up happened because RZ referred to XZ as her daughter (who knows, maybe she is her daughter), and MS as her son. People assumed that meant GS. They also assumed DS was around because RZ referred to herself as MS's mother and JS's wife. Kind of weird, if you ask me, and also not very truthful.

JMO

When did Rebecca ever refer to herself as being Jonah's wife? I'd like to see some evidence please.

And no, the reason people thought that GS was in Coronado was because one of GS' own friends said she had been staying there till Monday morning:


Prchal said he is friends with Shacknai’s eldest daughter, 14-year-old Gabriele. He said he has talked with her several times since the death at her father’s home, mostly to make sure she is OK.

Prchal said Gabriele has not talked a lot about Zahau’s death or the injury to her 6-year-old brother. “It’s kind of intimate,” he said. “She doesn’t want to talk about them.”

Gabriele was in Coronado until Monday morning, when she returned to her South Carolina home, Prchal said. She was gone by the time emergency crews responded to calls that her brother had fallen near the mansion’s grand interior staircase.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 10:22 AM
When did Rebecca ever refer to herself as being Jonah's wife? I'd like to see some evidence please.

And no, the reason people thought that GS was in Coronado was because one of GS' own friends said she had been staying there till Monday morning:

Then you could also believe the dog guy's claims that XZ is RZ's daughter.

Rhyme & Reason
09-19-2011, 10:36 AM
Then you could also believe the dog guy's claims that XZ is RZ's daughter.

But when did Rebecca refer to herself as Jonah's wife?

CDS22
09-19-2011, 10:58 AM
New article with new details. Don't know how many of them are true:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/09/18/what-really-happened-in-the-coronado-mansion.html

SunnieRN
09-19-2011, 11:16 AM
I sincerely think they don't realize what they're in for, and I also think they are gearing up for a civil suit which a lawyer might have convinced them would be easy to win. I don't think they are thinking of the implications for XZ.

IMO

Can you please explain what you mean by this? They haven't said anything about a civil suit, up to this time. And what 'implications' to XZ are you talking about? Is there someone you know, that is saying things concerning XZ? Do you have inside knowledge? If so, I would like to know that you are posing as an insider.


Okay, just deleted what I wrote. I realize to which PR firm you're referring.

JS has a business to run, and a family to support, althought there's one less family member now due to tragic events. I can see why he'd hire a PR firm because there's been so many false things said about him.

JMO

What false things have been said about Jonah? I would appreciate links to backup this statement please. You're right, he has a business to run, but he also has an obligation to the people he states he loves. That goes beyond his children, imo.


New article with new details. Don't know how many of them are true:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/09/18/what-really-happened-in-the-coronado-mansion.html

I posted this in another thread last night, with the caveat that we don't know the aithor, that at least some of the facts are known to be incorrect. I am interested to see if some of the other information pans out.

deanna82437
09-19-2011, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
New article with new details. Don't know how many of them are true:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...o-mansion.html




I posted this in another thread last night, with the caveat that we don't know the aithor, that at least some of the facts are known to be incorrect. I am interested to see if some of the other information pans out.

Many things about the article and author of the above seem strange. The author mainly writes articles for beauty products, not crime stories. But then many things in this case also strange. Anyone interested can look her up and the articles she has written. JMO

CDS22
09-19-2011, 04:13 PM
The story about GS being in town comes from her friend who said she was in Coronado but left before paramedics arrived. And it amazes me that in this instance you claim to believe the police reports but still argue the accident didn't happen as police reports say it did.

The police were actually in the house and saw who was and wasn't there. That's why I believe them.

Also, there's an article that states GS and ES left the Shacknai home hours before MS's accident occurred. MS went with his father to take them to the airport. MS and JS were supposed to go to the zoo, according to the article, but JS first went to the gym for a quick workout. That's when MS's accident allegedly happened.

SunnieRN
09-19-2011, 04:19 PM
The police were actually in the house and saw who was and wasn't there. That's why I believe them.

Also, there's an article that states GS and ES left the Shacknai home hours before MS's accident occurred. MS went with his father to take them to the airport. MS and JS were supposed to go to the zoo, according to the article, but JS first went to the gym for a quick workout. That's when MS's accident allegedly happened.

1) The article showed no proof of the children having flown out at 6 am that morning.

2) There have been many other articles stating Jonah was playing golf and was not at the gym at the time of the accident.

3) LE did not say anything about searching the property to see if anyone else was present at the time.

imo

MyBelle
09-19-2011, 04:30 PM
The police were actually in the house and saw who was and wasn't there. That's why I believe them.

Also, there's an article that states GS and ES left the Shacknai home hours before MS's accident occurred. MS went with his father to take them to the airport. MS and JS were supposed to go to the zoo, according to the article, but JS first went to the gym for a quick workout. That's when MS's accident allegedly happened.

That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. What a shame the day ended in such tragedy for the family.

SophieRose
09-19-2011, 04:43 PM
1) The article showed no proof of the children having flown out at 6 am that morning.

2) There have been many other articles stating Jonah was playing golf and was not at the gym at the time of the accident.

3) LE did not say anything about searching the property to see if anyone else was present at the time.

imo

You're dealing with heresay aobut Jonah's whereabouts and if the children were there or not, LE doesn't deal with heresay. Just because they didn't report at the press conference where the children were or what Jonah was doing at the time of MS's accident, doesn't mean they have not checked those things. I don't think LE owes those things to you either.

ehough22
09-19-2011, 04:44 PM
Can we take a step back? I wonder if some of us are getting confused due to LE's animation/explanation. Since (presumably) no one witnessed the accident they must have drawn their conclusions based on the scene after the fall and the injuries to Max's body. Maybe if we, for a second, ignore what we've been told happened we could draw different conclusions that may make more or just as much sense.

So what do we know to be true?

-the chandelier fell to the ground
-Max landed on his face with enough force to break his neck

I am not familiar enough with the AR to comment further on his injuries- anyone? Can we say for sure that he hit his back on the banister or just that he sustained injures to his back?

I guess I'm trying to get as many known pieces of the puzzle as we can and then step back and see what scenarios would fit those pieces instead of trying to make these pieces fit LE's scenario.

stilettos
09-19-2011, 04:47 PM
You're dealing with heresay aobut Jonah's whereabouts and if the children were there or not, LE doesn't deal with heresay. Just because they didn't report at the press conference where the children were or what Jonah was doing at the time of MS's accident, doesn't mean they have not checked those things. I don't think LE owes those things to you either.

They do owe that explanation to RZ's family.

SunnieRN
09-19-2011, 04:52 PM
You're dealing with heresay aobut Jonah's whereabouts and if the children were there or not, LE doesn't deal with heresay. Just because they didn't report at the press conference where the children were or what Jonah was doing at the time of MS's accident, doesn't mean they have not checked those things. I don't think LE owes those things to you either.

Yes, I am dealing with hearsay, submitted by MSM as was the article in the DailyBeast. I have stated many times, that it is not me, you or the general public, who deserves an explanation. The Zahaus, however do.

coastal
09-19-2011, 05:44 PM
What does that have to do with MS's death?
Probably nothing.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 06:03 PM
Can we take a step back? I wonder if some of us are getting confused due to LE's animation/explanation. Since (presumably) no one witnessed the accident they must have drawn their conclusions based on the scene after the fall and the injuries to Max's body. Maybe if we, for a second, ignore what we've been told happened we could draw different conclusions that may make more or just as much sense.

So what do we know to be true?

-the chandelier fell to the ground
-Max landed on his face with enough force to break his neck

I am not familiar enough with the AR to comment further on his injuries- anyone? Can we say for sure that he hit his back on the banister or just that he sustained injures to his back?

I guess I'm trying to get as many known pieces of the puzzle as we can and then step back and see what scenarios would fit those pieces instead of trying to make these pieces fit LE's scenario.

Massive head injuries on the front of his face, scrapes on the face, back injuries, and mutliple contusions on his body. His hands don't appear to be injured, if I'm remembering the AR correctly, which indicates to me (opinion alert) that he didn't use his hands to stop his fall, if he even fell. I'm starting to think that perhaps MS didn't really fall. By the way, his neck wasn't broken, but his spinal cord was stretched. Think whiplash in the extreme. I was talking to someone in the medical profession (again, opinion alert) who thinks that this is the kind of injury you see in a child who's been in a car crash and who wasn't wearing a seat belt. That's how severe it was.

IMO

SophieRose
09-19-2011, 06:36 PM
1) The article showed no proof of the children having flown out at 6 am that morning.

2) There have been many other articles stating Jonah was playing golf and was not at the gym at the time of the accident.

3) LE did not say anything about searching the property to see if anyone else was present at the time.

imo

Where did you hear Jonah was playing golf? I googled it and found nothing. Link please.

SunnieRN
09-19-2011, 06:41 PM
Massive head injuries on the front of his face, scrapes on the face, back injuries, and mutliple contusions on his body. His hands don't appear to be injured, if I'm remembering the AR correctly, which indicates to me (opinion alert) that he didn't use his hands to stop his fall, if he even fell. I'm starting to think that perhaps MS didn't really fall. By the way, his neck wasn't broken, but his spinal cord was stretched. Think whiplash in the extreme. I was talking to someone in the medical profession (again, opinion alert) who thinks that this is the kind of injury you see in a child who's been in a car crash and who wasn't wearing a seat belt. That's how severe it was.

IMO

Interesting thought. So, what kind of an accident does the person you know in the medical field, feel that Max had?

KarenM
09-19-2011, 06:46 PM
Life is random. If only little Max went to the zoo that day...

CDS22
09-19-2011, 06:59 PM
Life is random. If only little Max went to the zoo that day...

He would have gone if the accident didn't happen. I imagine (opinion alert) that he was waiting on the lower floor, perhaps by the stairwell, for his father to return home to pick him up. I don't think he was horsing around upstairs.

IMO

katydid23
09-19-2011, 07:21 PM
The police were actually in the house and saw who was and wasn't there. That's why I believe them.

Also, there's an article that states GS and ES left the Shacknai home hours before MS's accident occurred. MS went with his father to take them to the airport. MS and JS were supposed to go to the zoo, according to the article, but JS first went to the gym for a quick workout. That's when MS's accident allegedly happened.

This fact makes me really question Bremner, the Z family attorney. She publicly made the statement that both of the older siblings were present in the home when Max fell off the balcony. Why did she say that?

Was she mistaken? I would think she would check out those facts before making such a statement.

Was she lying on purpose? What was the purpose?

IMO, it just makes Bremner look bad. If she was wrong about that important information, and wrong about the 'planking' theory, then why believe her other accusations at all?

justice be served
09-19-2011, 08:32 PM
He would have gone if the accident didn't happen. I imagine (opinion alert) that he was waiting on the lower floor, perhaps by the stairwell, for his father to return home to pick him up. I don't think he was horsing around upstairs.

IMO

Okay, I'll bite. So if Max was not upstairs, you don't think he fell at all? The chandelier fell on him from above? The dog jumped on him and he was injured? I'm all ears on this one but maybe I'm not reading your post correctly.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 08:33 PM
This fact makes me really question Bremner, the Z family attorney. She publicly made the statement that both of the older siblings were present in the home when Max fell off the balcony. Why did she say that?

Was she mistaken? I would think she would check out those facts before making such a statement.

Was she lying on purpose? What was the purpose?

IMO, it just makes Bremner look bad. If she was wrong about that important information, and wrong about the 'planking' theory, then why believe her other accusations at all?

I agree that it makes Bremner look very bad. She's been advertised as a high profile lawyer, and Cyril Wecht doesn't come cheap, so I wonder what's up with the obvious misinformation.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 08:34 PM
Okay, I'll bite. So if Max was not upstairs, you don't think he fell at all? The chandelier fell on him from above? The dog jumped on him and he was injured? I'm all ears on this one but maybe I'm not reading your post correctly.

I have no clue, but it goes along with what RZ's sister is claiming RZ told her on the phone, that MS was playing in the hallway.

Rhyme & Reason
09-19-2011, 08:37 PM
Massive head injuries on the front of his face, scrapes on the face, back injuries, and mutliple contusions on his body. His hands don't appear to be injured, if I'm remembering the AR correctly, which indicates to me (opinion alert) that he didn't use his hands to stop his fall, if he even fell. I'm starting to think that perhaps MS didn't really fall. By the way, his neck wasn't broken, but his spinal cord was stretched. Think whiplash in the extreme. I was talking to someone in the medical profession (again, opinion alert) who thinks that this is the kind of injury you see in a child who's been in a car crash and who wasn't wearing a seat belt. That's how severe it was.

IMO

In the AR I see some facial contusions & abrasions, but nowhere does it say massive facial injuries!

justice be served
09-19-2011, 08:40 PM
This fact makes me really question Bremner, the Z family attorney. She publicly made the statement that both of the older siblings were present in the home when Max fell off the balcony. Why did she say that?

Was she mistaken? I would think she would check out those facts before making such a statement.

Was she lying on purpose? What was the purpose?

IMO, it just makes Bremner look bad. If she was wrong about that important information, and wrong about the 'planking' theory, then why believe her other accusations at all?

She wasn't very far into the case when she got the 'cease and desist' so we've not heard much out of her lately. But I would definitely keep an :eye: on her. I don't much care for her but I don't think she is a dummie at all.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 08:48 PM
In the AR I see some facial contusions & abrasions, but nowhere does it say massive facial injuries!

I should have specified - contusions, abrasions, and skull fracture.

CalElliot
09-19-2011, 11:07 PM
Ok thanks for looking for a link. If true that it was back up, maybe it was the only lighting in the foyer?

Couldn't find link for this, so don't know whether or not chandelier was rehung.

Rhyme & Reason
09-20-2011, 12:07 AM
Couldn't find link for this, so don't know whether or not chandelier was rehung.

It's OK, no worries, thanks for trying! If I come across it I will post.

tvscum
09-20-2011, 02:50 AM
Not sure if this was posted earlier, but the distance from the top banister that he tripped over to where the animation shows him falling on the bottom banister is "a little over 9 feet" from banister to banister.

1:07:30 in the news conference here:

http://www.10news.com/video/29065367/index.html

CDS22
09-20-2011, 09:04 AM
In the AR I see some facial contusions & abrasions, but nowhere does it say massive facial injuries!

Pages 5 and 6 of the AR will detail the amount of facial injuries he had. The child is pretty banged up on the face, head, and body which is unusual for a fall.

Rhyme & Reason
09-20-2011, 10:29 AM
Pages 5 and 6 of the AR will detail the amount of facial injuries he had. The child is pretty banged up on the face, head, and body which is unusual for a fall.

Banged up yes, "massive" facial injuries, no.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 11:42 AM
Banged up yes, "massive" facial injuries, no.

Did you count the number of facial injuries on the pages I gave you?

Rhyme & Reason
09-20-2011, 11:53 AM
Did you count the number of facial injuries on the pages I gave you?

I have the AR and investigation report saved to my computer and have read over them several times. I disagree with your term "massive".

CDS22
09-20-2011, 12:05 PM
I have the AR and investigation report saved to my computer and have read over them several times. I disagree with your term "massive".

So ten facial injuries (twelve if you count the ones on either side of his neck just under the jawline) are minor to you? (In your opinion, of course).

CDS22
09-20-2011, 12:07 PM
Does anyone else wonder how MS got injuries on both sides of his neck ?(page 6 of the autopsy report). Kind of strange for a kid tripping over something and falling over the stairs (this the latest in the Zahau family version of how he got fatally injured).

Rhyme & Reason
09-20-2011, 12:14 PM
So ten facial injuries (twelve if you count the ones on either side of his neck just under the jawline) are minor to you? (In your opinion, of course).

Not minor, but not massive either. If his facial bones would have been broken/smashed, then I would consider that more towards massive. Yes, my opinion.

ETA: I refuse to argue with you about this all day, so this is my last post on the subject.

Rhyme & Reason
09-20-2011, 12:20 PM
Does anyone else wonder how MS got injuries on both sides of his neck ?(page 6 of the autopsy report). Kind of strange for a kid tripping over something and falling over the stairs (this the latest in the Zahau family version of how he got fatally injured).

bbm - Link please

steff13
09-20-2011, 12:31 PM
I'm new to this site, and this investigation, but is it possible that he was standing on the top railing for some reason? Maybe he thought he might swing on the chandelier, climbed up onto the railing, and jumped off towards it, thinking he could grab it? If he was trying to grab for the chandelier, that might explain why he didn't instinctively cover his face with his hands? If he did succeed in grabbing it, or even if he just hit it, that might explained how it fell. If he "face-planted" into the floor, then the chandelier fell after him and hit his back, that might explain the marks on his back. It might have initially hit him in the back and then come to rest off to the side rather than directly on top of him.

Even if he didn't jump off the rail on purpose, if he was standing on it for some reason and lost his footing, he might have grabbed for the chandelier to try to catch himself.

I know chandeliers are supposed to be attached rather securely, but this one clearly was not. Unless someone climbed up and unscrewed it from the ceiling, it fell. I don't think that's disputed. Unless there is an indication that someone did unscrew it?

steff13
09-20-2011, 12:33 PM
Does anyone else wonder how MS got injuries on both sides of his neck ?(page 6 of the autopsy report). Kind of strange for a kid tripping over something and falling over the stairs (this the latest in the Zahau family version of how he got fatally injured).

I am perplexed by this whole circumstance. Why would Rbecca's family be coming up with any notions as to how the accident happened? If Rebecca and her sister truly didn't see anything, then Max is the only one who knows how it happened.

chasing.halos
09-20-2011, 12:38 PM
Does anyone else wonder how MS got injuries on both sides of his neck ?(page 6 of the autopsy report). Kind of strange for a kid tripping over something and falling over the stairs (this the latest in the Zahau family version of how he got fatally injured).

I can say that Maxie's family is confused about this as well.

In this depiction, I can see 1 neck injury happening from hitting the other side of the stairs (6th or 7th model pose here: http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms01.jpg) But 1 on the other side of the neck? I don't know.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 12:45 PM
I am perplexed by this whole circumstance. Why would Rbecca's family be coming up with any notions as to how the accident happened? If Rebecca and her sister truly didn't see anything, then Max is the only one who knows how it happened.

The sister claims that RZ told her over the phone how she last saw MS playing in the hallway (which is a different version from what RZ told the police). Then the family gave an interview, and the interviewer stated that Max "tripped" over something and fell down the stairs. His injuries aren't consistent with that.

IMO

Silkprint
09-20-2011, 12:46 PM
Haven't read any of the reports yet but am going to .
- Max was adorable ..look at that smile . RIP Max

CDS22
09-20-2011, 12:50 PM
I'm new to this site, and this investigation, but is it possible that he was standing on the top railing for some reason? Maybe he thought he might swing on the chandelier, climbed up onto the railing, and jumped off towards it, thinking he could grab it? If he was trying to grab for the chandelier, that might explain why he didn't instinctively cover his face with his hands? If he did succeed in grabbing it, or even if he just hit it, that might explained how it fell. If he "face-planted" into the floor, then the chandelier fell after him and hit his back, that might explain the marks on his back. It might have initially hit him in the back and then come to rest off to the side rather than directly on top of him.

Even if he didn't jump off the rail on purpose, if he was standing on it for some reason and lost his footing, he might have grabbed for the chandelier to try to catch himself.

I know chandeliers are supposed to be attached rather securely, but this one clearly was not. Unless someone climbed up and unscrewed it from the ceiling, it fell. I don't think that's disputed. Unless there is an indication that someone did unscrew it?

I haven't heard anything about the chandelier except that it fell down somehow, and that XZ, RZ's sister, cleaned it up. Apparently, she was injured and required stitches as well, but was flown out to another state before getting her stitches out.

His injuries don't make sense to many of us because we can't see how he could reach the chandelier, even if he stood on the railing and reached across. We also can't figure out where all the marks on his body came from. I've posted an article pages back that states that children who fall down the stairs typically don't have injuries on their trunk. Max had marks all over himself, including his neck.

Welcome to the forum.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 12:55 PM
I can say that Maxie's family is confused about this as well.

In this depiction, I can see 1 neck injury happening from hitting the other side of the stairs (6th or 7th model pose here: http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms01.jpg) But 1 on the other side of the neck? I don't know.

That's very disturbing.

steff13
09-20-2011, 12:59 PM
Thanks for the welcome!

The autopsy indicates that some of the injuries were healing. Do we know for certain they were sustained in the fall? When my middle son was that age, he was pretty much a walking injury - he was covered with scrapes and bruises, a lot of times we didn't even know how he got them.

I was looking at pictures of the stairwell, and I really do think that if he jumped from the rail above, he might have been able to reach the chandelier. Being that he was only six, I have no doubt that he might have thought that he could reach it, and that he might have made a try to grab for it.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but I do see that it might be possible.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:02 PM
Thanks for the welcome!

The autopsy indicates that some of the injuries were healing. Do we know for certain they were sustained in the fall? When my middle son was that age, he was pretty much a walking injury - he was covered with scrapes and bruises, a lot of times we didn't even know how he got them.

I was looking at pictures of the stairwell, and I really do think that if he jumped from the rail above, he might have been able to reach the chandelier. Being that he was only six, I have no doubt that he might have thought that he could reach it, and that he might have made a try to grab for it.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but I do see that it might be possible.

There's a link on this thread from a site called the Hinky Meter. They don't think that MS's injuries happened the way described, and they give mathematical equations to explain why.

As far as MS's injuries, they were the ones sustained in the fall on Monday, but by the time the autopsy was conducted, they had begun to heal.

chasing.halos
09-20-2011, 01:04 PM
Steff, :welcome5: !!

stilettos
09-20-2011, 01:08 PM
Does anyone else wonder how MS got injuries on both sides of his neck ?(page 6 of the autopsy report). Kind of strange for a kid tripping over something and falling over the stairs (this the latest in the Zahau family version of how he got fatally injured).

IDK but I have not heard the Shacknai family asking any questions about MS's death. It would be great to hear from them what their questions are...and the two families could join together and get all their questions answered.

stilettos
09-20-2011, 01:11 PM
Many things about the article and author of the above seem strange. The author mainly writes articles for beauty products, not crime stories. But then many things in this case also strange. Anyone interested can look her up and the articles she has written. JMO

It is interesting to me that this author mormally writes beauty articles which would fall into the category of JS's business and now writes another piece on two suspicious deaths. One could infer things.

Brit
09-20-2011, 01:11 PM
I'm new to this site, and this investigation, but is it possible that he was standing on the top railing for some reason? Maybe he thought he might swing on the chandelier, climbed up onto the railing, and jumped off towards it, thinking he could grab it? If he was trying to grab for the chandelier, that might explain why he didn't instinctively cover his face with his hands? If he did succeed in grabbing it, or even if he just hit it, that might explained how it fell. If he "face-planted" into the floor, then the chandelier fell after him and hit his back, that might explain the marks on his back. It might have initially hit him in the back and then come to rest off to the side rather than directly on top of him.

Even if he didn't jump off the rail on purpose, if he was standing on it for some reason and lost his footing, he might have grabbed for the chandelier to try to catch himself.

I know chandeliers are supposed to be attached rather securely, but this one clearly was not. Unless someone climbed up and unscrewed it from the ceiling, it fell. I don't think that's disputed. Unless there is an indication that someone did unscrew it?


I think that your hypothesis of what happened can make sense. The chandelier looks like a low hanging one that hung lower than the balcony. I think that it has been stated that a couple of balls were also at the scene. Could it be possible that a ball could have gotten stuck in the chandelier and ms could have been standing on the banister to possibly try and get the ball down? Since the chandelier is hanging below the railing he might have lost his balance and hit part if the chandelier on the way down, or tried to grab it on the way down?

As far as the facial injuries. If he went down face first, I can see how there would be severe facial and neck injuries. My child has jumped off my couch and face planted right on the floor and just from that short distance she had received a big bump on her forehead, bloody nose and a fat lip. Jmo.

chasing.halos
09-20-2011, 01:13 PM
IDK but I have not heard the Shacknai family asking any questions about MS's death. It would be great to hear from them what their questions are...and the two families could join together and get all their questions answered.

They have hired their own team of investigators. There is no need for them to go to the media because they have investigators working on it for them. All Dina's side of the family cares about is what happened to Maxie.

chasing.halos
09-20-2011, 01:18 PM
I think that your hypothesis of what happened can make sense. The chandelier looks like a low hanging one that hung lower than the balcony. I think that it has been stated that a couple of balls were also at the scene. Could it be possible that a ball could have gotten stuck in the chandelier and ms could have been standing on the banister to possibly try and get the ball down? Since the chandelier is hanging below the railing he might have lost his balance and hit part if the chandelier on the way down, or tried to grab it on the way down?

As far as the facial injuries. If he went down face first, I can see how there would be severe facial and neck injuries. My child has jumped off my couch and face planted right on the floor and just from that short distance she had received a big bump on her forehead, bloody nose and a fat lip. Jmo.

IMHO, I just do not see him standing on top of the banister because he needed momentum to fall the way he did. To hit the other side of the stairway banister and land on the other side of the landing- he propelled somehow.

As far as the injuries, I have 2 boys myself and man oh man have they had their share of accidents. I can see the bumps and bruises and facial trauma but the neck injuries intrigue me because they are on both sides.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:20 PM
I think that your hypothesis of what happened can make sense. The chandelier looks like a low hanging one that hung lower than the balcony. I think that it has been stated that a couple of balls were also at the scene. Could it be possible that a ball could have gotten stuck in the chandelier and ms could have been standing on the banister to possibly try and get the ball down? Since the chandelier is hanging below the railing he might have lost his balance and hit part if the chandelier on the way down, or tried to grab it on the way down?

As far as the facial injuries. If he went down face first, I can see how there would be severe facial and neck injuries. My child has jumped off my couch and face planted right on the floor and just from that short distance she had received a big bump on her forehead, bloody nose and a fat lip. Jmo.

A forehead bump, bloody nose, and fat lip are consistent with a fall. MS's injuries (marks on the sides of his neck, on his arms, legs, back, and face) are not. As a matter of fact, child abuse specialists (the link is posted on this thread) say that marks on the trunk of a child (MS had back injuries) are indicative of abuse and injuries from something other than a fall.

stilettos
09-20-2011, 01:21 PM
They have hired their own team of investigators. There is no need for them to go to the media because they have investigators working on it for them. All Dina's side of the family cares about is what happened to Maxie.

I can see that Dina would have questions about the death of her son...she should be allowed to question at will, as should RZ's family.

Brit
09-20-2011, 01:25 PM
A forehead bump, bloody nose, and fat lip are consistent with a fall. MS's injuries (marks on the sides of his neck, on his arms, legs, back, and face) are not. As a matter of fact, child abuse specialists (the link is posted on this thread) say that marks on the trunk of a child (MS had back injuries) are indicative of abuse and injuries from something other than a fall.

I would think that when someone falls from a second floor railing into a chandelier with the chandelier falling with the person and possibly on the person would create quite a lot of damage to a body, especially to a small child. Jmo.

Brit
09-20-2011, 01:28 PM
I can see that Dina would have questions about the death of her son...she should be allowed to question at will, as should RZ's family.

I agree with you, any mother should be able to get the details of what exactly happened and it must be frustrating not to know.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:30 PM
I would think that when someone falls from a second floor railing into a chandelier with the chandelier falling with the person and possibly on the person would create quite a lot of damage to a body, especially to a small child. Jmo.

Ahhh, but did he fall into the chandelier? How would he gain the momentum? How would injuries occur on both sides of his neck if he "fell"?

steff13
09-20-2011, 01:31 PM
When we're talking abou the neck, we are talking about these injuries, right:

"On the lateral left ala there is a 1/4 inch, vertically oriented, slightly healing, linear abrasion,"

and

"On the anterior right neck, just above the clavicle, there is an obliquely oriented, 1 x 1/4 inch, faint, red contusion/ecchymosis."

I'm having a difficult time picturing these injuries. Based on the language used, I am imagining them as a small scrape on the left and a small, faint bruise on the right. Are there other injuries to the neck that I am not seeing?

Oh, what is benzodiazepine?

steff13
09-20-2011, 01:36 PM
Ahhh, but did he fall into the chandelier? How would he gain the momentum? How would injuries occur on both sides of his neck if he "fell"?

If he didn't fall into it, how did it fall? Do you think someone purposely removed it?

I think he very well could have jumped, being a little boy, and thinking it might be fun to swing on the chandelier.

I may be reading incorrectly, but I read the injury on the right to be more in the front of his neck than on the side (anterior right neck, above the clavicle), which I think is very possible from the fall he sustained.

I am having trouble picturing where the other one is. Is there a drawing of the injuries somewhere?

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:37 PM
When we're talking abou the neck, we are talking about these injuries, right:

"On the lateral left ala there is a 1/4 inch, vertically oriented, slightly healing, linear abrasion,"

and

"On the anterior right neck, just above the clavicle, there is an obliquely oriented, 1 x 1/4 inch, faint, red contusion/ecchymosis."

I'm having a difficult time picturing these injuries. Based on the language used, I am imagining them as a small scrape on the left and a small, faint bruise on the right. Are there other injuries to the neck that I am not seeing?

Oh, what is benzodiazepine?


Those aren't marks consistent with falling down or from the stairs. They are consistent with pressure being put on the neck, IMO.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:41 PM
If he didn't fall into it, how did it fall? Do you think someone purposely removed it?

I think he very well could have jumped, being a little boy, and thinking it might be fun to swing on the chandelier.

I may be reading incorrectly, but I read the injury on the right to be more in the front of his neck than on the side (anterior right neck, above the clavicle), which I think is very possible from the fall he sustained.

I am having trouble picturing where the other one is. Is there a drawing of the injuries somewhere?

Like I said, there's an article from the Hinky Meter site that states it's mathematically impossible for MS to reach the chandelier from the stair railing to create the velocity needed for him to sustain whiplash so severe that he died from it. It just isn't scientifically possible.

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

Brit
09-20-2011, 01:42 PM
Ahhh, but did he fall into the chandelier? How would he gain the momentum? How would injuries occur on both sides of his neck if he "fell"?

Here is the link for the chandelier.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms02.jpg

In my opinion, they say he fell from the very top landing, the chandelier is well below that and he could have easily crashed into that chandelier on the way down. Especially if he was standing, planking, or leaning over the railing. My opinion.

KarenM
09-20-2011, 01:44 PM
I consulted a medical professional in my family who treated lots of people with fall injuries. He said that an unplugged spinal cord from the brain stem was usually due to a sudden and extremely violent twist and turn of the head/neck relatively to one's body. Although it was rare to happen in falls, it was even less likely to happen when one was hit by an object such as a chandelier from the top. A fallen chandelier would cause contusions, hemorrhages, etc, but almost impossible an unplugged spinal cord.

Max probably suffered from multiple injuries: at least a fall and a crush from the chandelier based on the scene he was found.

My relative said if he was to choose between a fall and a chandelier as the cause of the unplugged spinal cord, he would choose the fall. Although rare, a head first fall was still possible to produce enough force to twist one's neck/head to such a degree. A fallen chandelier, extremely unlikely.

Brit
09-20-2011, 01:44 PM
Like I said, there's an article from the Hinky Meter site that states it's mathematically impossible for MS to reach the chandelier from the stair railing to create the velocity needed for him to sustain whiplash so severe that he died from it. It just isn't scientifically possible.

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

They state it based on what the le said about him running down the hall...not if he was playing on the banister.

steff13
09-20-2011, 01:45 PM
Wait, is lateral left ala, is that your nose? When I look it up, all I get are pictures of nostrils.

If you are going to choke someone, I don't think pressing just above the clavicle is going to do it. I don't think it would even incapacitate them. It also doesn't appear there was a corresponding internal injury to that external one, which causes me to question the severity/significance of that wound. If someone put enough pressure on that area to choke/incapacitate/shove someone over a balcony, wouldn't there be internal wounds?

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:46 PM
Here is the link for the chandelier.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms02.jpg

In my opinion, they say he fell from the very top landing, the chandelier is well below that and he could have easily crashed into that chandelier on the way down. Especially if he was standing, planking, or leaning over the railing. My opinion.

Standing, leaning, or planking wouldn't give the momentum to cause whiplash severe enough to die from. They could cause other injuries, possibly, like brain bleeding, but that's not what MS died from. He died from whiplash, essentially. Also, even if he leaned and fell over, he couldn't have reached the chandelier. His little arms weren't long enough. Remember, he's not a giant nor a contortionist. This is a little 6 year old boy we're talking about.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:47 PM
Wait, is lateral left ala, is that your nose? When I look it up, all I get are pictures of nostrils.

If you are going to choke someone, I don't think pressing just above the clavicle is going to do it. I don't think it would even incapacitate them. It also doesn't appear there was a corresponding internal injury to that external one, which causes me to question the severity/significance of that wound. If someone put enough pressure on that area to choke/incapacitate/shove someone over a balcony, wouldn't there be internal wounds?

Lateral means on the side. He had marks on the right and left side of his neck.

steff13
09-20-2011, 01:47 PM
They state it based on what the le said about him running down the hall...not if he was playing on the banister.

Yeah, I definitely don't think that he tripped and fell over the rail.

Brit
09-20-2011, 01:47 PM
I consulted a medical professional in my family who treated lots of people with fall injuries. He said that an unplugged spinal cord from the brain stem was usually due to a sudden and extremely violent twist and turn of the head/neck relatively to one's body. Although it was rare to happen in falls, it was even less likely to happen when one was hit by an object such as a chandelier from the top. A fallen chandelier would cause contusions, hemorrhages, etc, but almost impossible an unplugged spinal cord.

Max probably suffered from multiple injuries: at least a fall and a crush from the chandelier based on the scene he was found.


I believe that they feel the spinal cord injury happened from the force of him falling on his face, kind of like when your neck snaps back and you get whiplash. Jmo.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:50 PM
I consulted a medical professional in my family who treated lots of people with fall injuries. He said that an unplugged spinal cord from the brain stem was usually due to a sudden and extremely violent twist and turn of the head/neck relatively to one's body. Although it was rare to happen in falls, it was even less likely to happen when one was hit by an object such as a chandelier from the top. A fallen chandelier would cause contusions, hemorrhages, etc, but almost impossible an unplugged spinal cord.

Max probably suffered from multiple injuries: at least a fall and a crush from the chandelier based on the scene he was found.

Exactly. MS's injuries are not consistent with a fall through a chandelier. Fatal falls usually cause non-recoverable brain injuries, which is not what MS died from.

What twisted MS's neck so severely that his little spinal cord became "unplugged"?

Brit
09-20-2011, 01:51 PM
Standing, leaning, or planking wouldn't give the momentum to cause whiplash severe enough to die from. They could cause other injuries, possibly, like brain bleeding, but that's not what MS died from. He died from whiplash, essentially. Also, even if he leaned and fell over, he couldn't have reached the chandelier. His little arms weren't long enough. Remember, he's not a giant nor a contortionist. This is a little 6 year old boy we're talking about.

So him falling face first from that high up wouldn't cause whiplash? I would think that when his face hit the floor it would have possibly snapped his head back when his face made impact on the floor. Jmo

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:51 PM
I believe that they feel the spinal cord injury happened from the force of him falling on his face, kind of like when your neck snaps back and you get whiplash. Jmo.

Most people don't die from whiplash.

So says Dr. Wang, not I:

http://www.empowher.com/whiplash/content/whiplash-it-fatal-dr-wang-video

steff13
09-20-2011, 01:52 PM
Lateral means on the side. He had marks on the right and left side of his neck.

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing any wounds on the left side of his neck. Can you point that part of the autopsy out to me?

The wound on the right doesn't say lateral, it says anterior. Anterior means front, correct? I wouldn't consider the clavicle on the side of the neck.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:53 PM
So him falling face first from that high up wouldn't cause whiplash? I would think that when his face hit the floor it would have possibly snapped his head back when his face made impact on the floor. Jmo

Then where was the brain bleed usually associated with a smack to the skull, like what Natasha Richardson suffered?

CDS22
09-20-2011, 01:53 PM
I'm sorry, I'm not seeing any wounds on the left side of his neck. Can you point that part of the autopsy out to me?

The wound on the right doesn't say lateral, it says anterior. Anterior means front, correct? I wouldn't consider the clavicle on the side of the neck.

The AR lists it as a neck injury.

SunnieRN
09-20-2011, 01:55 PM
A forehead bump, bloody nose, and fat lip are consistent with a fall. MS's injuries (marks on the sides of his neck, on his arms, legs, back, and face) are not. As a matter of fact, child abuse specialists (the link is posted on this thread) say that marks on the trunk of a child (MS had back injuries) are indicative of abuse and injuries from something other than a fall.

When someone face plants into a hard surface, yes those injuries could be sustained. These marks have nothing to do with trunk and back marks however.


Those aren't marks consistent with falling down or from the stairs. They are consistent with pressure being put on the neck, IMO.

I am certain, that with his injury unknown, the ems personnel placed a collar on Max's neck to prevent further movement or rotation. This is standard procedure and even with the correct size handy can cause bruising. It was linear, not finger prints or furrow.


Standing, leaning, or planking wouldn't give the momentum to cause whiplash severe enough to die from. They could cause other injuries, possibly, like brain bleeding, but that's not what MS died from. He died from whiplash, essentially. Also, even if he leaned and fell over, he couldn't have reached the chandelier. His little arms weren't long enough. Remember, he's not a giant nor a contortionist. This is a little 6 year old boy we're talking about.

According to LE he face planted. Relate this to diving in water that is too shallow, you hit the bottom, even if it is soft dirt, and you see these types of injuries.

Not saying this does not leave questions pertaining to Max's injuries, I have them also.

Brit
09-20-2011, 02:04 PM
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

This is an excerpt of the hinky link you just posted earlier

No one could save Max, once he fell. The fatal damage was done before anyone even found him. You see, Max suffered a tragic, somewhat rare injury that was not fixable. Somewhere, during his fall, he sustained a *neck hyperextension injury that* essentially “unplugged” his spinal cord from his brainstem. The injury didn’t sever the cord– or cardiac arrest would have been irreversible. But the hyperextension injury stretched Max’s spinal cord in such an extreme manner, that he essentially almost unplugged his spinal cord from his brainstem. This produced the cardiac arrest at the scene. There is no amount or quality of CPR or advanced care that can overcome a shredded spinal cord at the junction of the brainstem. The fall set in motion the series of events that lead to his death 4 days later. The autopsy report confirms this. And for those who are conspiracy theorists…no assassin is that lucky; no way. It was an accident.

steff13
09-20-2011, 02:06 PM
The AR lists it as a neck injury.

Where I am looking in the AR is listed under the category "HEAD AND NECK." I'm looking at the top of page 6 of the AR. Above it on page 5 is where it says "HEAD AND NECK."

I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing that as a neck injury. All of my research shows that the lateral left ala is part of the nose. Since your nose is part of your head, "HEAD AND NECK" would be the appropriate section for that type of injury.

I could be wrong, but that's how I'm reading it.

stilettos
09-20-2011, 02:07 PM
Then where was the brain bleed usually associated with a smack to the skull, like what Natasha Richardson suffered?

Natasha Richardson was not "smacked" in the skull..she suffered a ski accident. There is no proof at this time that anyone "smacked" MS.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 02:08 PM
Where I am looking in the AR is listed under the category "HEAD AND NECK." I'm looking at the top of page 6 of the AR. Above it on page 5 is where it says "HEAD AND NECK."

I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing that as a neck injury. All of my research shows that the lateral left ala is part of the nose. Since your nose is part of your head, "HEAD AND NECK" would be the appropriate section for that type of injury.

I could be wrong, but that's how I'm reading it.

Lateral left merely means it's on the left side. Since they're discussing his neck, it means the left side of his neck had an injury.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 02:09 PM
Natasha Richardson was not "smacked" in the skull..she suffered a ski accident. There is no proof at this time that anyone "smacked" MS.

Natasha Richardson FELL. The term "smacked" just means hit in the head. A hardy, icy surface would produce a "smack". Curious that MS allegedly fell but didn't get the brain bleed associated with fatal falls. And that's just my opinion.

stilettos
09-20-2011, 02:11 PM
I consulted a medical professional in my family who treated lots of people with fall injuries. He said that an unplugged spinal cord from the brain stem was usually due to a sudden and extremely violent twist and turn of the head/neck relatively to one's body. Although it was rare to happen in falls, it was even less likely to happen when one was hit by an object such as a chandelier from the top. A fallen chandelier would cause contusions, hemorrhages, etc, but almost impossible an unplugged spinal cord.

Max probably suffered from multiple injuries: at least a fall and a crush from the chandelier based on the scene he was found.

I am so glad that we have all you new posters here at WS. Welcome. It would be really wonderful to have the answers about what happened the night before and day of MS and RZ's deaths. Every single member of the household and family should be questioned including the children and whereabouts verified. Hopefully there will be a re-opening of the investigation and answers will come for both families. I know the Zahou family is looking for answers. They have said so in the MSM.

CDS22
09-20-2011, 02:13 PM
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

This is an excerpt of the hinky link you just posted earlier

No one could save Max, once he fell. The fatal damage was done before anyone even found him. You see, Max suffered a tragic, somewhat rare injury that was not fixable. Somewhere, during his fall, he sustained a *neck hyperextension injury that* essentially “unplugged” his spinal cord from his brainstem. The injury didn’t sever the cord– or cardiac arrest would have been irreversible. But the hyperextension injury stretched Max’s spinal cord in such an extreme manner, that he essentially almost unplugged his spinal cord from his brainstem. This produced the cardiac arrest at the scene. There is no amount or quality of CPR or advanced care that can overcome a shredded spinal cord at the junction of the brainstem. The fall set in motion the series of events that lead to his death 4 days later. The autopsy report confirms this. And for those who are conspiracy theorists…no assassin is that lucky; no way. It was an accident.


There are two separate articles about MS's death on the Hinky Meter. One analyzes his fall, the other his autopsy. One author doesn't believe MS was injured the way it's been claimed. The other author discusses the injuries sustained. I agree with some parts of both articles. I don't believe that the whiplash death is necessarily linked to MS's fall, not the way it's been described to us. I also believe that there might be more evidence that they're withholding from the public that might make the accident ruling make more sense. JMO.

SunnieRN
09-20-2011, 02:17 PM
There are two separate articles about MS's death on the Hinky Meter. One analyzes his fall, the other his autopsy. One author doesn't believe MS was injured the way it's been claimed. The other author discusses the injuries sustained. I agree with some parts of both articles. I don't believe that the whiplash death is necessarily linked to MS's fall, not the way it's been described to us. I also believe that there might be more evidence that they're withholding from the public that might make the accident ruling make more sense. JMO.

What information, in your opinion, has been withheld? Di you have any theories about how Max's fall occurred? How he sustained the injuries?

imho, the fall could have caused the facial injuries, a c pine collar could account for the linear neck marks.

KarenM
09-20-2011, 02:19 PM
I believe that they feel the spinal cord injury happened from the force of him falling on his face, kind of like when your neck snaps back and you get whiplash. Jmo.

My relative said if he was to choose between a fall and a chandelier as the cause of the unplugged spinal cord, he would choose the fall. Although rare, a head first fall was still possible to produce enough force to twist one's neck/head to such a degree. A fallen chandelier, extremely unlikely.

Rhyme & Reason
09-20-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm new to this site, and this investigation, but is it possible that he was standing on the top railing for some reason? Maybe he thought he might swing on the chandelier, climbed up onto the railing, and jumped off towards it, thinking he could grab it? If he was trying to grab for the chandelier, that might explain why he didn't instinctively cover his face with his hands? If he did succeed in grabbing it, or even if he just hit it, that might explained how it fell. If he "face-planted" into the floor, then the chandelier fell after him and hit his back, that might explain the marks on his back. It might have initially hit him in the back and then come to rest off to the side rather than directly on top of him.

Even if he didn't jump off the rail on purpose, if he was standing on it for some reason and lost his footing, he might have grabbed for the chandelier to try to catch himself.

I know chandeliers are supposed to be attached rather securely, but this one clearly was not. Unless someone climbed up and unscrewed it from the ceiling, it fell. I don't think that's disputed. Unless there is an indication that someone did unscrew it?

My thought all along has been that he was standing on the railing and either jumped, to try to swing from chandelier, or fell. IDK.

IMO

katydid23
09-20-2011, 03:43 PM
My thought all along has been that he was standing on the railing and either jumped, to try to swing from chandelier, or fell. IDK.

IMO

I agree that the injuries he had seem to imply that scenario, that he was standing on the railing and jumped out toward the chandelier.
But I just cannot understand what would prompt him to do something like that. I know he was only 6, but in my experience, even 6 yr olds know about heights and gravity and pain. Max was a very smart kid. He knew that jumping on a chandelier was a stupid decision, imo.
And it was 10 am, he was playing alone, had just eaten breakfast. I do not see any reason, like friends daring him, or an audience to impress, for him to do such a ridiculous thing like try to swing on a glass chandelier from an upstairs balcony. I really cannot buy that scenario with out having more information. imoo

MyBelle
09-20-2011, 04:16 PM
There are two separate articles about MS's death on the Hinky Meter. One analyzes his fall, the other his autopsy. One author doesn't believe MS was injured the way it's been claimed. The other author discusses the injuries sustained. I agree with some parts of both articles. I don't believe that the whiplash death is necessarily linked to MS's fall, not the way it's been described to us. I also believe that there might be more evidence that they're withholding from the public that might make the accident ruling make more sense. JMO.

Those are opinions and not expert analysis. It is irresponsible to suggest there was no saving Max when others do survive such injuries with immediate, proper life saving.

I do not believe LE are withholding any evidence, I think the point of JS' request to investigate protocols is because the ME reached a conclusion without adequate evidence in regard to Max.

According to RN's statement to LE, there were no witnesses to Max's fall. According to first responders, his body had a scooter across his legs, a shattered chandelier nearby and nobody was doing CPR. Yet, the ME concluded it was an accident even though there is no plausible explanation for the scooter or the chandelier. He died for lack of circulated oxygen to his brain and heart even though EMT's were there within minutes.

It is impossible to reach a conclusion of accident with any degree of certainty with so much left unexplained, yet the ME did just that.

If I was Max's parent, I'd question his protocol of reaching such a determination. I've thought all along he did so just out of respect for RN's family and not wanting to accuse her of being responsible. In doing so, that is a serious disservice to Max and his family, who have been trashed by unfounded speculation.

JMO

stilettos
09-20-2011, 04:23 PM
Those are opinions and not expert analysis. It is irresponsible to suggest there was no saving Max when others do survive such injuries with immediate, proper life saving.

I do not believe LE are withholding any evidence, I think the point of JS' request to investigate protocols is because the ME reached a conclusion without adequate evidence in regard to Max.

According to RN's statement to LE, there were no witnesses to Max's fall. According to first responders, his body had a scooter across his legs, a shattered chandelier nearby and nobody was doing CPR. Yet, the ME concluded it was an accident even though there is no plausible explanation for the scooter or the chandelier. He died for lack of circulated oxygen to his brain and heart even though EMT's were there within minutes.

It is impossible to reach a conclusion of accident with any degree of certainty with so much left unexplained, yet the ME did just that.

If I was Max's parent, I'd question his protocol of reaching such a determination. I've thought all along he did so just out of respect for RN's family and not wanting to accuse her of being responsible. In doing so, that is a serious disservice to Max and his family, who have been trashed by unfounded speculation.

JMO

BBM As to the above bolded by me...I believe the same is true of Rebecca's death and both cases should be reviewed by an independent panel of investigators not from that area. MOO

SunnieRN
09-20-2011, 04:25 PM
Natasha Richardson FELL. The term "smacked" just means hit in the head. A hardy, icy surface would produce a "smack". Curious that MS allegedly fell but didn't get the brain bleed associated with fatal falls. And that's just my opinion.

This is probably because the whiplash that sustained Max's neck injuries, also protected his brain from bleeding. He did fall onto carpet, not on hard, slick ice.

My Belle, from your statement above 'there was no saving Max when others do survive such injuries with immediate, proper life saving.' There have been many experts that have 'weighed in' on Max's accident.

Max was alive, on machines to sustain his life. How do you know that Max was not given 'proper life saving' measures?

MyBelle
09-20-2011, 04:29 PM
I agree that the injuries he had seem to imply that scenario, that he was standing on the railing and jumped out toward the chandelier.
But I just cannot understand what would prompt him to do something like that. I know he was only 6, but in my experience, even 6 yr olds know about heights and gravity and pain. Max was a very smart kid. He knew that jumping on a chandelier was a stupid decision, imo.
And it was 10 am, he was playing alone, had just eaten breakfast. I do not see any reason, like friends daring him, or an audience to impress, for him to do such a ridiculous thing like try to swing on a glass chandelier from an upstairs balcony. I really cannot buy that scenario with out having more information. imoo

That isn't a reasonable scenario. He was only 6 yrs and no evidence he was a gymnast capable of climbing onto and then standing on a narrow railing, let alone then jumping from that position.

JMO

steff13
09-20-2011, 05:16 PM
Lateral left merely means it's on the left side. Since they're discussing his neck, it means the left side of his neck had an injury.

I understand what lateral and left mean. I am saying that this may refer to his nose rather than his neck, since it doesn't say neck, it says "ala." Can you please explain which part of your neck is the ala?

steff13
09-20-2011, 05:27 PM
That isn't a reasonable scenario. He was only 6 yrs and no evidence he was a gymnast capable of climbing onto and then standing on a narrow railing, let alone then jumping from that position.

JMO

How wide is the banister?

CDS22
09-20-2011, 05:43 PM
That isn't a reasonable scenario. He was only 6 yrs and no evidence he was a gymnast capable of climbing onto and then standing on a narrow railing, let alone then jumping from that position.

JMO

And twirling around so he'd hit his back, legs, and neck and manage to fall just so on his head, not bruising it enough to have a brain bleed, mind you, but twisting it just so to fatally stretch his spinal cord. Ridiculous stuff.

MyBelle
09-20-2011, 06:28 PM
And twirling around so he'd hit his back, legs, and neck and manage to fall just so on his head, not bruising it enough to have a brain bleed, mind you, but twisting it just so to fatally stretch his spinal cord. Ridiculous stuff.

ITA. Just as the suggestion he was planking was ridiculous. No evidence to support it either scenario.

JMO

stilettos
09-20-2011, 06:33 PM
And twirling around so he'd hit his back, legs, and neck and manage to fall just so on his head, not bruising it enough to have a brain bleed, mind you, but twisting it just so to fatally stretch his spinal cord. Ridiculous stuff.

Was the same coroner the finder of fact for both autopsies? So, some believe one finding and not the other? Just for clarification.

revampz
09-21-2011, 01:43 AM
CDS22 I am with you. When I first read about RNs death when it happened, both my husband and I concluded that she had been killed in retaliation for something that she did to Max. I still believe that. As you have pointed out the police only had her and her sisters word for what happened, ie where they actually were in the house. I dont beleive it. I find it hard to beleive that people without knowing this lady jump to her defence to say that she didnt do anything to him. She was only with the boyfriend for 2 years, not a long time, and I am gathering he was sharing custody so there is half of that 2 years lopped of and then how long did it take to actually develop a bonding relationship between the two. I get annoyed when people say that they were very close and she was like a mother to max. For goodness sakes it was 2 years! I am sure they were very fond of each other and I do really think that whatever happened to Max was an accident. But I think it was an accident that evolved because of an incident that was not told to the police. That incident I dont know, maybe he was being chased or pushed while someone was trying to catch him, or maybe he was hurt in another way and thrown over the balcony to cover up the initial incident.. I am also highly suspicious of the last word "ocean" scenario. I personally think that she told the police that to make them think he was on his scooter in the hallway and tripped over the dog. I also think the scooter was put on his shin after the accident for the same reason. Basically nothing in this scenario the way it was told the police SUPPOSED to have happened adds up.

I am not saying Rebecca murdered/killed max, I still think it was unintentional but she was involved.

CDS22
09-21-2011, 01:29 PM
CDS22 I am with you. When I first read about RNs death when it happened, both my husband and I concluded that she had been killed in retaliation for something that she did to Max. I still believe that. As you have pointed out the police only had her and her sisters word for what happened, ie where they actually were in the house. I dont beleive it. I find it hard to beleive that people without knowing this lady jump to her defence to say that she didnt do anything to him. She was only with the boyfriend for 2 years, not a long time, and I am gathering he was sharing custody so there is half of that 2 years lopped of and then how long did it take to actually develop a bonding relationship between the two. I get annoyed when people say that they were very close and she was like a mother to max. For goodness sakes it was 2 years! I am sure they were very fond of each other and I do really think that whatever happened to Max was an accident. But I think it was an accident that evolved because of an incident that was not told to the police. That incident I dont know, maybe he was being chased or pushed while someone was trying to catch him, or maybe he was hurt in another way and thrown over the balcony to cover up the initial incident.. I am also highly suspicious of the last word "ocean" scenario. I personally think that she told the police that to make them think he was on his scooter in the hallway and tripped over the dog. I also think the scooter was put on his shin after the accident for the same reason. Basically nothing in this scenario the way it was told the police SUPPOSED to have happened adds up.

I am not saying Rebecca murdered/killed max, I still think it was unintentional but she was involved.

I agree with your evaluation. I believe (opinion alert) that MS was harmed unintentionally in a separate incident, and that the "fall" was staged to cover up the first injury. I think that, had RZ been honest from the start and called for help immediately, the child might have survived. That is my opinion only, but I have read a lot about the case.

I find it interesting that so many people in the earliest threads about this case, agreed with our viewpoint, until RZ was found dead. I'm leaning towards suicide for her, because I believe she thought they'd find out what she did that caused MS to die. However, I am open to new information coming forward about the case.

stilettos
09-21-2011, 01:39 PM
I agree with your evaluation. I believe (opinion alert) that MS was harmed unintentionally in a separate incident, and that the "fall" was staged to cover up the first injury. I think that, had RZ been honest from the start and called for help immediately, the child might have survived. That is my opinion only, but I have read a lot about the case.

I find it interesting that so many people in the earliest threads about this case, agreed with our viewpoint, until RZ was found dead. I'm leaning towards suicide for her, because I believe she thought they'd find out what she did that caused MS to die. However, I am open to new information coming forward about the case.

So...to be clear...you don't believe the official finding of fact for MS...but you do for RZ?

CDS22
09-21-2011, 01:47 PM
Another thing that throws off the "Max-grabbed-the-chandelier-as-he-dove-off-the-railiway" theory is that MS did not have wounds on his hands. A child who grabbed onto a falling chandelier and crashed through it would have cuts and abrasions on his hands. A child who fell and then had a chandelier crash onto him (odd how that could happen) would have marks on his hands from trying to break his fall.

That means that MS was already unconscious when he hit the floor, and that he did not fall through the chandelier.

Who did have wounds on her hands and leg(s?) from the chandelier? XZ

JMO

steff13
09-21-2011, 01:58 PM
If he jumped from the railing with the intention of swinging on the chandelier, the chandelier wouldn't have cut his hands - it wouldn't have had broken glass until it hit the floor.

Let's say he jumped, grabbed the chandelier, and his weight was too much for it. It starts to swing, he loses his grip and falls, then the chandelier falls after him. It's not a perfect scenario, but it's possible.

CDS22
09-21-2011, 02:07 PM
If he jumped from the railing with the intention of swinging on the chandelier, the chandelier wouldn't have cut his hands - it wouldn't have had broken glass until it hit the floor.

Let's say he jumped, grabbed the chandelier, and his weight was too much for it. It starts to swing, he loses his grip and falls, then the chandelier falls after him. It's not a perfect scenario, but it's possible.

If he grabbed the chandelier and came crashing down with it, glass would have shattered in his hands. If he lunged into the chandelier and it came crashing down after him, he would have abrasions and cuts on his hands from the force of grabbing onto it, because even unbroken pieces of chandelier are sharp. You have to be careful cleaning one of those things, let alone grabbing onto it.