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deanna82437
09-21-2011, 03:06 PM
I agree with your evaluation. I believe (opinion alert) that MS was harmed unintentionally in a separate incident, and that the "fall" was staged to cover up the first injury. I think that, had RZ been honest from the start and called for help immediately, the child might have survived. That is my opinion only, but I have read a lot about the case.

I find it interesting that so many people in the earliest threads about this case, agreed with our viewpoint, until RZ was found dead. I'm leaning towards suicide for her, because I believe she thought they'd find out what she did that caused MS to die. However, I am open to new information coming forward about the case.

BBM
I've not read to the bottom of this thread, so apologize if this has been commented already. You state that so many people agreed with our viewpoint. Just wondering who you refer to.

Also the earliest threads in this case were in July. Rebecca was found dead on 7/13. As I see it you joined this month. Just curious as to your statement that so many agreed BEFORE she was found dead. Hope this makes sense, mind is a bit frazzled today.

CDS22
09-21-2011, 03:19 PM
BBM
I've not read to the bottom of this thread, so apologize if this has been commented already. You state that so many people agreed with our viewpoint. Just wondering who you refer to.

Also the earliest threads in this case were in July. Rebecca was found dead on 7/13. As I see it you joined this month. Just curious as to your statement that so many agreed BEFORE she was found dead. Hope this makes sense, mind is a bit frazzled today.

"Our" refers to revampz's opinion and mine, because I was agreeing with that poster's viewpoint.

Prior to joining the forum (but after RZ's death), I read through some old threads. The earliest ones were about MS's death. People were categorizing her as a party girl and saying MS's death was suspicious. Then mere days later she died, and many appeared to forget about MS and make RZ into a martyr of sorts. That's when I joined.

Rhyme & Reason
09-21-2011, 03:20 PM
BBM
I've not read to the bottom of this thread, so apologize if this has been commented already. You state that so many people agreed with our viewpoint. Just wondering who you refer to.

Also the earliest threads in this case were in July. Rebecca was found dead on 7/13. As I see it you joined this month. Just curious as to your statement that so many agreed BEFORE she was found dead. Hope this makes sense, mind is a bit frazzled today.

Right. This case didn't come up on Websleuths until Rebecca's death. Here is the very first post of the very first thread on this case. 7-14-2011, 8:05 PM.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Rebecca Nalepa

CDS22
09-21-2011, 03:21 PM
Right. This case didn't come up on Websleuths until Rebecca's death.

There were posts that were strictly about MS's death. They might not have been solo threads dedicated to MS ( can't remember) but there were definite posts just about him. They're in the archives and I read them.

Rhyme & Reason
09-21-2011, 03:29 PM
There were posts that were strictly about MS's death. They might not have been solo threads dedicated to MS ( can't remember) but there were definite posts just about him. They're in the archives and I read them.

It started out as a thread for Rebecca but since Maxie's accident ties in with it we discussed that too. There was no thread started for Maxie before Rebecca died.

deanna82437
09-21-2011, 03:32 PM
"Our" refers to revampz's opinion and mine, because I was agreeing with that poster's viewpoint.

Prior to joining the forum (but after RZ's death), I read through some old threads. The earliest ones were about MS's death. People were categorizing her as a party girl and saying MS's death was suspicious. Then mere days later she died, and many appeared to forget about MS and make RZ into a martyr of sorts. That's when I joined.

BBM
Rebecca's death was prior to MS's death.

CDS22
09-21-2011, 04:16 PM
BBM
Rebecca's death was prior to MS's death.

Sorry, I mean injuries.

SunnieRN
09-21-2011, 04:46 PM
"Our" refers to revampz's opinion and mine, because I was agreeing with that poster's viewpoint.

Prior to joining the forum (but after RZ's death), I read through some old threads. The earliest ones were about MS's death. People were categorizing her as a party girl and saying MS's death was suspicious. Then mere days later she died, and many appeared to forget about MS and make RZ into a martyr of sorts. That's when I joined.

Hmmm, I would appreciate ReVampz weighing in here. From her recent post, if I am not mistaken, she stated she now thinks it was murder. Did you perhaps have someone else in mind?

As for Rebecca being a 'party girl', the MAJORITY of us fought that notion, from the beginning of thread #1.

As stated in an earlier post, there were no individual threads early on. We just got a forum recently. Many of us questioned Max's accident from the beginning. Rebecca's death was the catalyst to the threads, as prior to that, and I believe this is very unfortunate, a childs accident was not front page news, until the second incident at the mansion. Then things could not be ignored and have not gone away.

Also, why so vehement? Just who ARE you so angry with?


Sorry, I mean injuries.

Glad that was redacted.

revampz
09-22-2011, 03:08 AM
HI....I think the death of Max is very suspicious and I do beleive RN had something to do with it. But as I said before I dont think she murdered him, I still think it was unintentional but my theory is she was involved and the situation wasnt a good one. ie maybe chasing him or pushed him and THEN he was thrown over the balcony. What the police have is heresay, what I mean is where her and her sister where at the time and the last word max spoke. I also think the scooter was staged.

When it comes to rebeccas death, I really dont know. I too think that accusations were flung at her from JS & DS, and just not about not watching him properly. We have heard on here that DS thinks RN strangled him. I am thinking there would have been evidence of that. I then think RN was angry, desperate and very scared and staged her suicide to get back at JS.

However I also think it possible that JS, DS & AS got together and decided to "get her" so to speak and JS was not at ronald mcdonalds as he says, hence her being naked, and between him and his brother they tied her up and got her over that railing.

One thing, she was with him for 2 years. Does anyone know if they split how much he would have had to pay her out? I am sure if he was blaming her for his sons death and developed a hatred for her, he would have wanted her out of his life, and you can bet he sure as .... did not want to give her a cent. I am thinking RN would not have been the type to go without a cent either.

SophieRose
09-22-2011, 03:23 AM
One thing, she (Rebecca) was with him for 2 years. Does anyone know if they split how much he would have had to pay her out? I am sure if he was blaming her for his sons death and developed a hatred for her, he would have wanted her out of his life, and you can bet he sure as .... did not want to give her a cent. I am thinking RN would not have been the type to go without a cent either.

They were not married, he would not owe her anything. And Arizona (nor California) does not recognize common law marriages, there are few states that do.

revampz
09-22-2011, 03:25 AM
OH MY GOODNESS....EEEKS....in the above post I said DS thought RN strangled Max, that is incorrect and I do not want to cause trouble etc.....should have been suffocated .........

I have no medical knowledge at all, but am thinking that surely forensics would have picked up if he had of been suffocated.

revampz
09-22-2011, 03:26 AM
thanks Sophie Rose....ok that's that theory crossed off. Here in Australia it is almost criminal. I know guys who have lived with girls for 2 years and lost their houses to them.

thinkingstraight
09-22-2011, 09:00 AM
thanks Sophie Rose....ok that's that theory crossed off. Here in Australia it is almost criminal. I know guys who have lived with girls for 2 years and lost their houses to them.

Whoa. Really? That's crazy! Moving in together is supposed to be the safer option!

stilettos
09-22-2011, 09:02 AM
Whoa. Really? That's crazy! Moving in together is supposed to be the safer option!

In CA living together also has legal financial consequences.

SnoopyDoobyDoo
09-22-2011, 10:01 AM
OH MY GOODNESS....EEEKS....in the above post I said DS thought RN strangled Max, that is incorrect and I do not want to cause trouble etc.....should have been suffocated .........

I have no medical knowledge at all, but am thinking that surely forensics would have picked up if he had of been suffocated.

In most cases there would be signs of petechial hemorrhage (http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/petechial-hemorrhage), but that might be consistent with his known injuries and would therefore be inconclusive.


I just started reading about this case and it feels truly ghoulish to be speculating about it like a puzzle, but two thoughts:

1. If the child was running, could he have gone over the rail lower down from the landing? Like he was running/scooting, swerved to avoid the dog/tripped over the dog/tripped on the carpet/tripped over his own feet and fell at an angle towards the stair rail. He would fall towards the stairs as if to tumble down, but hit the rail a step or two down (which would be much shorter if he was coming from above, negating the centre of gravity issue) and flip over. Is that clear? If not, I can try to do a very basic diagram to shot what I mean.

2. Could the "Ocean" thing be wishful thinking? I haven't read the statement attached to it so I don't know how it was presented, but a rattling breath before going into cardiac arrest, a sound coming from a completely different source, a lot of options are available where she could have wanted to find an answer and interpreted as something else entirely. I've read many cases where "words" were heard in impossible situations- one was a case where a woman ascertained her very young baby spoke words, despite a birth defect making this impossible. Others were family members being declared dead and then "speaking", which was likely air escaping.

Rhyme & Reason
09-22-2011, 10:15 AM
HI....I think the death of Max is very suspicious and I do beleive RN had something to do with it. But as I said before I dont think she murdered him, I still think it was unintentional but my theory is she was involved and the situation wasnt a good one. ie maybe chasing him or pushed him and THEN he was thrown over the balcony. What the police have is heresay, what I mean is where her and her sister where at the time and the last word max spoke. I also think the scooter was staged.

When it comes to rebeccas death, I really dont know. I too think that accusations were flung at her from JS & DS, and just not about not watching him properly. We have heard on here that DS thinks RN strangled him. I am thinking there would have been evidence of that. I then think RN was angry, desperate and very scared and staged her suicide to get back at JS.

However I also think it possible that JS, DS & AS got together and decided to "get her" so to speak and JS was not at ronald mcdonalds as he says, hence her being naked, and between him and his brother they tied her up and got her over that railing.

One thing, she was with him for 2 years. Does anyone know if they split how much he would have had to pay her out? I am sure if he was blaming her for his sons death and developed a hatred for her, he would have wanted her out of his life, and you can bet he sure as .... did not want to give her a cent. I am thinking RN would not have been the type to go without a cent either.

Hi revampz. Since RZ and JS were not married, he would not have had to pay her anything.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 11:37 AM
I'd like to know how his neck got twisted so badly that it unplugged his spinal cord from his brain. Very suspicious, IMO.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 11:39 AM
Hi revampz. Since RZ and JS were not married, he would not have had to pay her anything.

ITA. They were not legally married so I don't think he would have to pay her anything if they separated. Since JS and RN had no children together, there would also be no child support.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 11:44 AM
In most cases there would be signs of petechial hemorrhage (http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/petechial-hemorrhage), but that might be consistent with his known injuries and would therefore be inconclusive.


I just started reading about this case and it feels truly ghoulish to be speculating about it like a puzzle, but two thoughts:

1. If the child was running, could he have gone over the rail lower down from the landing? Like he was running/scooting, swerved to avoid the dog/tripped over the dog/tripped on the carpet/tripped over his own feet and fell at an angle towards the stair rail. He would fall towards the stairs as if to tumble down, but hit the rail a step or two down (which would be much shorter if he was coming from above, negating the centre of gravity issue) and flip over. Is that clear? If not, I can try to do a very basic diagram to shot what I mean.

2. Could the "Ocean" thing be wishful thinking? I haven't read the statement attached to it so I don't know how it was presented, but a rattling breath before going into cardiac arrest, a sound coming from a completely different source, a lot of options are available where she could have wanted to find an answer and interpreted as something else entirely. I've read many cases where "words" were heard in impossible situations- one was a case where a woman ascertained her very young baby spoke words, despite a birth defect making this impossible. Others were family members being declared dead and then "speaking", which was likely air escaping.

He had marks on his neck. Sounds kind of odd for a "fall", doesn't it?

SnoopyDoobyDoo
09-22-2011, 11:52 AM
He had marks on his neck. Sounds kind of odd for a "fall", doesn't it?

From what I recall quoted in this thread, very light marks that were observed after he was moved with a suspected back injury. The matching abrasions were likely caused by a neck brace placed by the EMS. They weren't consistent with pressure intense enough to cause suffucation. In my opinion, of course.

As for the injury- an unfortunate fall is really all it takes. It's a rare injury, yes, but it happens. That said, I'm wondering if he smacked his head off one of the rails as he fell- leaves more room for his head to snap back and cause the whiplash.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 11:55 AM
From what I recall quoted in this thread, very light marks that were observed after he was moved with a suspected back injury. The matching abrasions were likely caused by a neck brace placed by the EMS.

I have never heard of neck braces causing marks like that, nor do they state that the marks were found only after he was moved with a suspected back injury.

steff13
09-22-2011, 11:59 AM
He had marks on his neck. Sounds kind of odd for a "fall", doesn't it?

I still never saw in the AR where he had marks on his neck, other than one just above his right clavicle, which had no corresponding internal injury.

I still maintain that the abrasion on the "lateral left ala," was referring to his nose not his neck.

Which means there were no "marks on his neck," there was one light mark just above his clavicle on the right.

SnoopyDoobyDoo
09-22-2011, 12:04 PM
I have never heard of neck braces causing marks like that, nor do they state that the marks were found only after he was moved with a suspected back injury.

I know of at least one case (in high school, one of the groups I volunteered with toured a nearby medical centre to educate about impaired driving. In one of the wards we stopped and talked with a teenaged girl who pointed out the marks on her neck from the brace while discussing her injury) and since the only record of that particular injury I've heard is in the AR, it cannot be determined when it occured. While moving him, as a result of whatever occured, or a compeltely separate incident before his fall.

Steff's observations above also seem relevent. I don't have the heart to read the autopsy report, so I am going on what has been quoted here.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 12:10 PM
I know of at least one case (in high school, one of the groups I volunteered with toured a nearby medical centre to educate about impaired driving. In one of the wards we stopped and talked with a teenaged girl who pointed out the marks on her neck from the brace while discussing her injury) and since the only record of that particular injury I've heard is in the AR, it cannot be determined when it occured. While moving him, as a result of whatever occured, or a compeltely separate incident before his fall.

Steff's observations above also seem relevent. I don't have the heart to read the autopsy report, so I am going on what has been quoted here.

He had multiple contusions on his legs, scrapes on his face, marks on the sides of his neck, and a back injury. Oddly enough, there were no marks on his hands from allegedly grabbing a chandelier as he flew through the air.

steff13
09-22-2011, 12:25 PM
He had multiple contusions on his legs, scrapes on his face, marks on the sides of his neck, and a back injury. Oddly enough, there were no marks on his hands from allegedly grabbing a chandelier as he flew through the air.


Where in the AR does it state he had marks on the sides of his neck? I'm not being difficult, I really don't see it. Please cite the specific language.


Sent from my BlackBerry 8530 using Tapatalk

CDS22
09-22-2011, 12:30 PM
Where in the AR does it state he had marks on the sides of his neck? I'm not being difficult, I really don't see it. Please cite the specific language.


Sent from my BlackBerry 8530 using Tapatalk

I gave you the page number many posts ago (pages 5-6). <modsnip>

steff13
09-22-2011, 12:44 PM
I gave you the page number many posts ago (pages 5-6). I can't make you see something you can't see. I don't know why the language is hard for you to understand. I can't cut-and-paste the segment because it's in PDF format.

I am talking about the language on pages 5-6. There isn't anything there about the side of his neck. I can't see something that isn't there.

IWannaKnow
09-22-2011, 01:24 PM
From Max AR, page 6:

On the anterior right neck, just above the clavicle, there is an obliquely oriented, 1 x 1/4 inch, faint, red contusion/ecchymosis.

Ecchymosis:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ecchymosis
Escape of the blood into the tissues from ruptured blood vessels.

This is a bruise on the front right side of his neck, just above his clavicle, or collar bone. Why should that be so surprising a finding, given that he died from head trauma? SDSO stated that he fell face first onto the floor after contact with both the chandelier and the opposite railing. Damage to the neck structures should be no surprise.

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 01:31 PM
From Max AR, page 6:


Ecchymosis:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ecchymosis
Escape of the blood into the tissues from ruptured blood vessels.

This is a bruise on the front right side of his neck, just above his clavicle, or collar bone. Why should that be so surprising a finding, given that he died from head trauma? SDSO stated that he fell face first onto the floor after contact with both the chandelier and the opposite railing. Damage to the neck structures should be no surprise.

Which is a possibility with a c spine collar.

steff13
09-22-2011, 01:34 PM
I'm not talking about his nose. I'm talking about his neck.

The child died from a twist of the neck so sharp that it uplugged his spinal cord. He also has abrasions on his neck. Put those two together and they don't support the evidence of a fall.

And I am asking you to cite the specific language in the AR that describes the abrasions to his neck.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 01:41 PM
Now page 4 on this link:

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max_report.pdf

depicts the abrasions on little Max's spine. Those are conducive with someone being DRAGGED across a rough surface like a carpet, IMO.

stilettos
09-22-2011, 01:46 PM
Now page 4 on this link:

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max_report.pdf

depicts the abrasions on little Max's spine. Those are conducive with someone being DRAGGED across a rough surface like a carpet, IMO.

That does not answer the question posed. Where in the autopsy report does it specify the abrasions to the neck that you refer to? Not the ones to the nose....the neck.

IWannaKnow
09-22-2011, 01:50 PM
I'm not talking about his nose. I'm talking about his neck.

The child died from a twist of the neck so sharp that it uplugged his spinal cord. He also has abrasions on his neck. Put those two together and they don't support the evidence of a fall.

I cannot understand this logic. How do you think those bruises got there? "uplugged" his spinal cord.....but you don't think he would have trauma to his neck? Please explain your reasoning, because I truly want to understand how you think he could suffer that injury without neck injuries and what you think same neck injuries DO indicate.

IWannaKnow
09-22-2011, 01:53 PM
That does not answer the question posed. Where in the autopsy report does it specify the abrasions to the neck that you refer to? Not the ones to the nose....the neck.

I posted it upthread stilettos. It is a bruise above his clavicle.

stilettos
09-22-2011, 01:54 PM
I posted it upthread stilettos. It is a bruise above his clavicle.

O...I thought th epost was referring to other abrasions not the one above the clavicle...which could or could not be referred to as the neck.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 01:56 PM
I cannot understand this logic. How do you think those bruises got there? "uplugged" his spinal cord.....but you don't think he would have trauma to his neck? Please explain your reasoning, because I truly want to understand how you think he could suffer that injury without neck injuries and what you think same neck injuries DO indicate.

Abrasions on the back have nothing to do with a fall on the head. Experts state specifically that children who allegedly die or are injured in falls typically do not have any injuries on their trunks. In other words, there should be no dragging marks on a spinal cord if the fatal injuries were caused by whiplash.

steff13
09-22-2011, 01:57 PM
O...I thought th epost was referring to other abrasions not the one above the clavicle...which could or could not be referred to as the neck.

I would refer to above the clavicle as the neck, but it was being asserted that there were abrasions on the sides of the neck. I don't see any indication of that. The specific word that was being used by the other poster was "lateral." The injury above the clavicle is referred to as "anterior," not "lateral."

CDS22
09-22-2011, 02:07 PM
Another amazing point from the AR: "There is no scalp laceration". Pretty remarkable for someone who allegedly fell through a chandelier to not have one single cut on the scalp.

IMO

CDS22
09-22-2011, 02:29 PM
Now this is interesting:


A third warrant, signed July 22, shows that Coronado police seized several items from the mansion, including an ornate chandelier found in the trash, a black T-shirt, electrical wire, a silver Razor scooter and a soccer ball. All of the items had been found and photographed in the stairwell of the home, shortly after Max was injured.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/22/state-ag-wont-review-deaths-spreckels-mansion/

I wish those had been taken as soon as Max's accident was reported.

KarenM
09-22-2011, 02:42 PM
According to Max's AR, he died of severe spinal cord hyperextension. So severe that his spinal cord was unplugged from his brain stem. Some people may say he died of oxygen deprivation in the brain. But the oxygen deprivation was caused by the cardio arrest which was the consequence of the unplugged spinal cord.

Max was not strangled to death. Strangulation is very easily detected in autopsy. And there is no evidence supporting that based on his AR.

I consulted a medical professional who treated a lot of patients with fall injuries and asked him about possible causes of an unplugged spinal cord. He said the forces had to be tremendous to cause such a rare injury. Several scenarios he mentioned: head first fall with great momentum; hanging on the neck after dropping a significant distance; hit by a train (and maybe a very bad car accident). Even in the above three scenarios, most people still didn't end up with unplugged spinal cord. RZ was an example. She was hanged on the neck and dropped an estimated 9 feet. The pressure on her neck must have been tremendous but her autopsy did not show an unplugged spinal cord. The specialist said that it was much easier to break someone's neck than unplugging someone's spinal cord from the brain stem.

I then asked him how likely it would be for a human to twist someone's neck and unplug that person's spinal cord. He said he doubted it was even humanly possible. But if it was possible (since nothing was 100% in this world), the perpetrator had to be extremely strong, maybe someone who resembles Conan, definitely not someone who is 5'3" and 100LB like RZ.

Since Dina has a team of specialists working for her to investigate Max's death, more than likely she has heard similar opinions.

Did RZ abuse Max? I don't know. But if she did, July 11 could not be the first time she did it. Why weren't there any signs of abuse before? Max was six and spent time with his biological mother frequently without RZ being present. Wouldn't he tell if he was abused? Why didn't doctors at ER notice any child abuse symptom and inform the child protective service? They are trained in recognizing signs of child abuse.

Did RZ have a motivation to kill Max? In my opinion, no. She would not inherit a single cent if Max died. She would probably be kicked out of JS's life entirely if not having to spend all her life behind bars.

Could it be that Rebecca had done something bad to Max and in a panic decided to throw him off the railing and kill him to cover up? Extremely unlikely. Throwing a kid down from second floor stairs will not be able to kill a child 99% of the time. Max more than likely would survive and tell his parents what happened. RZ cannot expect herself to hit the murder lottery and have Max’s spinal cord unplugged. If she happened to injure Max any other way (let's say the injury left mark on Max's back, just for the sake of it), that injury was not cause of death based on the AR.

Did RZ manipulate the scene where Max was found to avoid being seen as a negligent care giver? Possible but no one can be certain. The scooter did not fit in the scene easily. But we cannot say for sure as there was no video.

Max was the only person who knew what happened. But he died. RZ might or might not know depending whether she indeed was in the bathroom when the incident happened. But she is dead anyway. Xena may or may not know, also depending on whether she indeed was taking a shower when the incident happened. The police should administer an interview on Xena in my opinion. And if the Zahau family is willing, I think a lie detecting test on Xena doesn't sound very inappropriate to give the Shacknais some closure in this matter.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 02:48 PM
Newly obtained search warrants reveal that a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated.

A county sheriff’s investigation later confirmed that Max died after falling down the stairs in the infamous Spreckles mansion where Rebecca Zahau was found dead days later.

However, Dr. Brad Peterson, a doctor at Rady’s Children’s hospital was quoted in a search warrant saying that Max might have suffocated before the fall. The visible injuries were not consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by the boy, Peterson said.


Source: Shacknai Boy May Have Suffocated: Doctor | NBC San Diego

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Shacknai-Boy-May-Have-Suffocated-Doctor-130367943.html

SophieRose
09-22-2011, 02:51 PM
In CA living together also has legal financial consequences.

Out of curiosity, what are they?

CDS22
09-22-2011, 02:57 PM
Okay, so now we've got a doctor from Rady's stating he thinks Max was suffocated, and that Max's visible injuries were not consistent with his internal injuries. And we have a little boy with scrape marks (abrasions) down his spine, as though he were dragged down the steps. So could someone have suffocated Max, then dragged him downstairs to stage an accidental "fall" scene? Could someone have known Max suffered oxygen deprivation and would in no way recover to say what happened, long before he even got examined by doctors? Just some speculation on my part.

stilettos
09-22-2011, 02:59 PM
Out of curiosity, what are they?

It is complicated...http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm71/7182/7182.asp

Betty P
09-22-2011, 03:03 PM
Source: Shacknai Boy May Have Suffocated: Doctor | NBC San Diego

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Shacknai-Boy-May-Have-Suffocated-Doctor-130367943.html

Interesting. Sounds more and more like there needs to be an independent investigation, peer reviewed and open to the public.

This news coming today also sounds as though more warrants are going to be released. Pre-emptive PR. IMO

Salem
09-22-2011, 03:04 PM
Do NOT BICKER! Help each other out - don't go getting all defensive and ugly.

When you are asked to support your statement (not an opinion) or clarify - please do so, WITHOUT GETTING SNARKY.

Treat each other respectfully.

This is the last warning about bickering.

This post lands at random.

Salem

CDS22
09-22-2011, 03:06 PM
Interesting. Sounds more and more like there needs to be an independent investigation, peer reviewed and open to the public.

This news coming today also sounds as though more warrants are going to be released. Pre-emptive PR. IMO

Kind of makes you wonder what else will come out.

katydid23
09-22-2011, 03:15 PM
Okay, so now we've got a doctor from Rady's stating he thinks Max was suffocated, and that Max's visible injuries were not consistent with his internal injuries. And we have a little boy with scrape marks (abrasions) down his spine, as though he were dragged down the steps. So could someone have suffocated Max, then dragged him downstairs to stage an accidental "fall" scene? Could someone have known Max suffered oxygen deprivation and would in no way recover to say what happened, long before he even got examined by doctors? Just some speculation on my part.

But then how would his spinal cord become unplugged? I don't see how that could happen in a staging scene.

My potential theory is that something happened to make him fall over the balcony, like roughhousing, play fighting, or even an angry 13 yr old chasing him because he was being an annoying 6 yr old. My son used to take things from his 12 yr old cousin and run off, laughing, and she would get angry and chase him down to get her stuff back. So I have wondered if maybe there was a chase and or a tussle upstairs, that led to his fall.

That would explain why the Z family attorney came out with the accusations that the older sibs were there during the accident. I think someone who was there told the attorney that. But it was not true, so the attorney has backed off from that. But it seemed to me that someone was trying to blame this on the older siblings and planking. Maybe someone who wanted the focus away from them?

CDS22
09-22-2011, 03:17 PM
But then how would his spinal cord become unplugged? I don't see how that could happen in a staging scene.

My potential theory is that something happened to make him fall over the balcony, like roughhousing, play fighting, or even an angry 13 yr old chasing him because he was being an annoying 6 yr old. My son used to take things from his 12 yr old cousin and run off, laughing, and she would get angry and chase him down to get her stuff back. So I have wondered if maybe there was a chase and or a tussle upstairs, that led to his fall.

That would explain why the Z family attorney came out with the accusations that the older sibs were there during the accident. I think someone who was there told the attorney that. But it was not true, so the attorney has backed off from that. But it seemed to me that someone was trying to blame this on the older siblings and planking. Maybe someone who wanted the focus away from them?

The doctor thinks he was suffocated, then went over the railing.

justbetweenus
09-22-2011, 03:44 PM
Kind of makes you wonder what else will come out.

Has there been anything said that the sister had wet hair when police arrived? I would imagine it would be if she was in the shower.

stilettos
09-22-2011, 03:47 PM
The doctor thinks he was suffocated, then went over the railing.

All the more reason to ascertain exactly which minor children were in the home when. To interview each of them again...and find out how or if it relates to RZ's death. It sounds as though there are serious grounds to reopen both investigations. It would be paramount to prove who was with MS during the time in question..and all avenues are needing investigation...including family members.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 03:53 PM
All the more reason to ascertain exactly which minor children were in the home when. To interview each of them again...and find out how or if it relates to RZ's death. It sounds as though there are serious grounds to reopen both investigations. It would be paramount to prove who was with MS during the time in question..and all avenues are needing investigation...including family members.

The AR states that only RZ and XZ were in the home with MS at the time of the child's injury.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 03:55 PM
Has there been anything said that the sister had wet hair when police arrived? I would imagine it would be if she was in the shower.

That's a good point. She did have injuries (cuts on her hands and one on her leg deep enough to need stitches). She was supposed to be staying with RZ and JS for 2 weeks, but instead was flown back home the next day after a shopping trip with RZ.

stilettos
09-22-2011, 04:05 PM
The AR states that only RZ and XZ were in the home with MS at the time of the child's injury.

Yes I know...it also does not say that MS died from suffocation.:waitasec:

KarenM
09-22-2011, 04:10 PM
Here is my speculation on the suffocation theory.

The article says "a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated". The phrase "at first" implies the suspicion was later dropped.

So why did the doctor initially think MS was suffocated? (My speculation follows) When MS was first admitted to the hospital, no one would have known or even guessed he had an unplugged spinal cord. An unplugged spinal cord is very unusual and can't be identified until thorough examination is completed. If the doctor did not know about the unplugged spinal cord, he could not have thought of the chain reaction as follows:
unplugged spinal cord -> cardiac arrest -> deprivation of oxygen in the brain (swelling brain). This chain reaction is a sure thing confirmed by many medical professionals who examined the AR later.

ER doctors see tons of fall injuries. They are not normally accompanied by cardiac arrest and swelling brain. That’s why there is a note that inconsistency existed between the visible fall injury symptoms - fracture on the forehead etc. - and the sign of oxygen deprivation in the brain.

So what would be a much more common cause of cardiac arrest and swelling brain (which indicated oxygen deprivation)? The most common cause is suffocation. It was more likely and reasonable for the doctor to think the child was suffocated than to think that his spinal cord was unplugged, which is extremely rare.

Doctors in ER or any other divisions of the hospital are not forensic pathologists. They don’t have the expertise in determining cause of death. That's why the cause of death has to be determined by the forensic doctor. Strangulation (where the victim's neck has been compressed) and suffocation (where the victim's nose and mouth have been covered by objects such as pillows or duct tapes) are detectable upon autopsy (http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/asphyxiation-signs, http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/suffocating-and-smothering.html). And the bottom line is that the forensic pathologist did not find anything in the autopsy to support such a theory.

Since the Shacknais are resourceful, I think they probably have hired professionals to double or even triple check the pathological findings of their beloved son.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 04:13 PM
Yes I know...it also does not say that MS died from suffocation.:waitasec:

Suffocation doesn't always show up in autopsies. Sometimes they have to know what the scenario was to get a suffocation ruling.

The AR does show a mark on MS's neck as well as multiple contusions and a neck twisted enough to unplug his spinal cord. Even RZ's hanging death didn't cause her to have an unplugged spinal cord.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 04:18 PM
Here is my speculation on the suffocation theory.

The article says "a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated". The phrase "at first" implies the suspicion was later dropped.

So why did the doctor initially think MS was suffocated? (My speculation follows) When MS was first admitted to the hospital, no one would have known or even guessed he had an unplugged spinal cord. An unplugged spinal cord is very unusual and can't be identified until thorough examination is completed. If the doctor did not know about the unplugged spinal cord, he could not have thought of the chain reaction as follows:
unplugged spinal cord -> cardiac arrest -> deprivation of oxygen in the brain (swelling brain). This chain reaction is a sure thing confirmed by many medical professionals who examined the AR later.

ER doctors see tons of fall injuries. They are not normally accompanied by cardiac arrest and swelling brain. That’s why there is a note that inconsistency existed between the visible fall injury symptoms - fracture on the forehead etc. - and the sign of oxygen deprivation in the brain.

So what would be a much more common cause of cardiac arrest and swelling brain (which indicated oxygen deprivation)? The most common cause is suffocation. It was more likely and reasonable for the doctor to think the child was suffocated than to think that his spinal cord was unplugged, which is extremely rare.

Doctors in ER or any other divisions of the hospital are not forensic pathologists. They don’t have the expertise in determining cause of death. That's why the cause of death has to be determined by the forensic doctor. Strangulation (where the victim's neck has been compressed) and suffocation (where the victim's nose and mouth have been covered by objects such as pillows or duct tapes) are detectable upon autopsy (http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/asphyxiation-signs). And the bottom line is that the forensic pathologist did not find anything in the autopsy to support such a theory.

Since the Shacknais are resourceful, I think they probably have hired professionals to double or even triple check the pathological findings of their beloved son.

Or, could MS's spinal cord have become unplugged from the force in which his neck was twisted? (abrasions on his neck noted in the AR) Then the fall was staged (hence the abrasions on his back from the dragging), and the bizarre placing of the scooter, soccer balls, and chandelier.

Remember, he didn't have cuts on his hands from grabbing the chandelier, and the marks on his back were not consistent with a fall. He also didn't have marks on his hands from trying to stop the fall, so that suggests he was already unconscious prior to falling down the stairs.

He did have marks around his nose (abrasions) which are consistent with suffocation.

All of this is only my opinion and pure speculation on my part, but I do think that new information will be forthcoming.

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 04:28 PM
Abrasions on the back have nothing to do with a fall on the head. Experts state specifically that children who allegedly die or are injured in falls typically do not have any injuries on their trunks. In other words, there should be no dragging marks on a spinal cord if the fatal injuries were caused by whiplash.

"dragging marks'?


Okay, so now we've got a doctor from Rady's stating he thinks Max was suffocated, and that Max's visible injuries were not consistent with his internal injuries. And we have a little boy with scrape marks (abrasions) down his spine, as though he were dragged down the steps. So could someone have suffocated Max, then dragged him downstairs to stage an accidental "fall" scene? Could someone have known Max suffered oxygen deprivation and would in no way recover to say what happened, long before he even got examined by doctors? Just some speculation on my part.

That is some speculation, considering that the ME, whom you say 'got it right' with Rebecca, stated NO such thing concerning Max and his injuries.


All the more reason to ascertain exactly which minor children were in the home when. To interview each of them again...and find out how or if it relates to RZ's death. It sounds as though there are serious grounds to reopen both investigations. It would be paramount to prove who was with MS during the time in question..and all avenues are needing investigation...including family members.

This needs to be looked at again and thoroughly. This is especially true to to LE's statements which have been proven unreliable to this point in the case:

Jonah never left Max that night

Adam passed a lie detector case

The 12:30 phone call/voice message made Rebecca so despondent, she committed suicide.

etc. etc, etc.


The AR states that only RZ and XZ were in the home with MS at the time of the child's injury.

Please see above. Thank you.

stilettos
09-22-2011, 04:32 PM
Here is my speculation on the suffocation theory.

The article says "a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated". The phrase "at first" implies the suspicion was later dropped.

So why did the doctor initially think MS was suffocated? (My speculation follows) When MS was first admitted to the hospital, no one would have known or even guessed he had an unplugged spinal cord. An unplugged spinal cord is very unusual and can't be identified until thorough examination is completed. If the doctor did not know about the unplugged spinal cord, he could not have thought of the chain reaction as follows:
unplugged spinal cord -> cardiac arrest -> deprivation of oxygen in the brain (swelling brain). This chain reaction is a sure thing confirmed by many medical professionals who examined the AR later.

ER doctors see tons of fall injuries. They are not normally accompanied by cardiac arrest and swelling brain. That’s why there is a note that inconsistency existed between the visible fall injury symptoms - fracture on the forehead etc. - and the sign of oxygen deprivation in the brain.

So what would be a much more common cause of cardiac arrest and swelling brain (which indicated oxygen deprivation)? The most common cause is suffocation. It was more likely and reasonable for the doctor to think the child was suffocated than to think that his spinal cord was unplugged, which is extremely rare.

Doctors in ER or any other divisions of the hospital are not forensic pathologists. They don’t have the expertise in determining cause of death. That's why the cause of death has to be determined by the forensic doctor. Strangulation (where the victim's neck has been compressed) and suffocation (where the victim's nose and mouth have been covered by objects such as pillows or duct tapes) are detectable upon autopsy (http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/asphyxiation-signs, http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/suffocating-and-smothering.html). And the bottom line is that the forensic pathologist did not find anything in the autopsy to support such a theory.

Since the Shacknais are resourceful, I think they probably have hired professionals to double or even triple check the pathological findings of their beloved son.

Thank you. I did not know the doctor was being mis-quoted....."At first" is part of the quote that was left out. Interesting.

KarenM
09-22-2011, 04:38 PM
Or, could MS's spinal cord have become unplugged from the force in which his neck was twisted? (abrasions on his neck noted in the AR) Then the fall was staged (hence the abrasions on his back from the dragging), and the bizarre placing of the scooter, soccer balls, and chandelier.

Remember, he didn't have cuts on his hands from grabbing the chandelier, and the marks on his back were not consistent with a fall. He also didn't have marks on his hands from trying to stop the fall, so that suggests he was already unconscious prior to falling down the stairs.

He did have marks around his nose (abrasions) which are consistent with suffocation.

All of this is only my opinion and pure speculation on my part, but I do think that new information will be forthcoming.

His unplugged spinal cord was definitely due to a twist, but highly unlikely a twist induced by human hands. According to the medical professional I consulted, the twist to unplug a spinal cord demands tremendous amount of force that he doubted it could possibly be done by a human. And if it was, it got to be by a super strong man, not a woman.

The abrasions on his nose could be caused by the fallen chandelier. Fallen objects often cause abrasions and contusions.

The unused hands and the back injury are the only two things I don't see plausible explanations and can be suspicious IMO. I hope more information will come out as you said.

steff13
09-22-2011, 04:57 PM
What exactly would be the scenario for suffocation? As has been said, he didn't have any wounds on his hands. If someone was suffocating him, wouldn't he have defensive wounds? DNA under his fingernails?

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 04:59 PM
Search warrants released!


http://www.cbs8.com/story/15520745/sheriff-launches-forensic-exam-of-zahaus-cell-phone-new-witnesses-accounts-reported

CDS22
09-22-2011, 05:50 PM
What exactly would be the scenario for suffocation? As has been said, he didn't have any wounds on his hands. If someone was suffocating him, wouldn't he have defensive wounds? DNA under his fingernails?

Not if he were hit on the head first or somehow taken by surprise. However, he did have lots of contusions on his legs and face. The smaller the child the harder it is to prove suffocation via an autopsy (and the easier it is to suffocate them). RZ was more than twice MS's weight.

JMO

Yoda
09-22-2011, 06:09 PM
Wow. In the search warrant it mentioned two soccer balls, but on the inventory there was only one, did I read too fast and miss it or was the ball not found. Sorry, I'm just in shock at the suffocation part and the first inconsistency I could find was the soccer ball. It may and prob is nothing.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 06:13 PM
The AR states that only RZ and XZ were in the home with MS at the time of the child's injury.

LE made it clear at the press conference that the info about who was in the home came from RZ. I thought it was curious that they pointed that out and wondered if they ever talked to XZ. It seems she was quickly whisked out of town. If the doctor treating Max believed he had been suffocated, he was required to alert police and CPS.

I do wonder if the ME was aware that the doctor had that suspicion and will continue to hold the opinion that LE will re-open their investigation into Max's death.

JMO

CDS22
09-22-2011, 06:14 PM
Wow. In the search warrant it mentioned two soccer balls, but on the inventory there was only one, did I read too fast and miss it or was the ball not found. Sorry, I'm just in shock at the suffocation part and the first inconsistency I could find was the soccer ball. It may and prob is nothing.

I'm wondering if some of the stuff they seized that we assumed to be for RZ's case, turned out to be for MS's (black gloves, etc.)

CDS22
09-22-2011, 06:17 PM
LE made it clear at the press conference that the info about who was in the home came from RZ. I thought it was curious that they pointed that out and wondered if they ever talked to XZ. It seems she was quickly whisked out of town. If the doctor treating Max believed he had been suffocated, he was required to alert police and CPS.

I do wonder if the ME was aware that the doctor had that suspicion and will continue to hold the opinion that LE will re-open their investigation into Max's death.

JMO

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the doctor's statement contribute to the search warrant for MS?

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 06:25 PM
Suffocation doesn't always show up in autopsies. Sometimes they have to know what the scenario was to get a suffocation ruling.

The AR does show a mark on MS's neck as well as multiple contusions and a neck twisted enough to unplug his spinal cord. Even RZ's hanging death didn't cause her to have an unplugged spinal cord.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the doctor's statement contribute to the search warrant for MS?

CD, before this goes any further, a doctor is required by law to report any form or type of child abuse. This is true if this injury results in a minor injury or if it results in a childs death

This doctor is MANDATED to report this. Immediately, to CPS. The wording was 'at first' he believed it to be....

Unless you are calling this doctor out, on refusing to comply with the law and therefore subjecting himself to jail time and loss of his license, I would say for certain, he does NOT believe that to be true at this point and time.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 06:34 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the doctor's statement contribute to the search warrant for MS?

Absolutely. I've thought from the beginning that Max's injuries would have triggered a doctor's concern enough to alert LE.

Yoda
09-22-2011, 06:37 PM
I found it hard to believe the LE description of how MS was injured- like most posters here, and i felt it was an unfortunate accident inadvertently caused by someone in the home. Because of the several day delay in investigating his death, the scene IMO was severely compromised. Now to find that a doctor initially thought MS might have been suffocated, and I have NO medical knowledge, so I am assuming this means closing off his airways or him being somewhere that there was insufficient air, ie refrigerator, I feel the best way to find out what happened will be from remaining witnesses. I use plural because anyone staying, visiting the house within a few days before the accident should be interviewed to determine the mood, what games were being played, ie hide and seek, planking,. Maybe LE has done this and that is why they determined it an accident, but without that knowledge, as a follower of these tragic events, IMO MS's death needs further review.
I am new to this so if any veteran posters can tell me, does LE usually release most of the info after the findings? And if they don't, is this just an instance of LE BADLY summarizing the events? Because every time they release something I have even more questions/concerns. Tia

CDS22
09-22-2011, 06:38 PM
Absolutely. I've thought from the beginning that Max's injuries would have triggered a doctor's concern enough to alert LE.

Thank you for your response.

So the doctor alerted the authorities and they got the search warrants. This is going to be very interesting to see what unfolds.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 06:39 PM
His unplugged spinal cord was definitely due to a twist, but highly unlikely a twist induced by human hands. According to the medical professional I consulted, the twist to unplug a spinal cord demands tremendous amount of force that he doubted it could possibly be done by a human. And if it was, it got to be by a super strong man, not a woman.

The abrasions on his nose could be caused by the fallen chandelier. Fallen objects often cause abrasions and contusions.

The unused hands and the back injury are the only two things I don't see plausible explanations and can be suspicious IMO. I hope more information will come out as you said.

Shattered glass usually cause cuts, not abrasions. And I don't believe it is impossible that the same human hands that suffocated the child also propelled him over the second floor railing to fall to his death.

JMO

CDS22
09-22-2011, 06:41 PM
I found it hard to believe the LE description of how MS was injured- like most posters here, and i felt it was an unfortunate accident inadvertently caused by someone in the home. Because of the several day delay in investigating his death, the scene IMO was severely compromised. Now to find that a doctor initially thought MS might have been suffocated, and I have NO medical knowledge, so I am assuming this means closing off his airways or him being somewhere that there was insufficient air, ie refrigerator, I feel the best way to find out what happened will be from remaining witnesses. I use plural because anyone staying, visiting the house within a few days before the accident should be interviewed to determine the mood, what games were being played, ie hide and seek, planking,. Maybe LE has done this and that is why they determined it an accident, but without that knowledge, as a follower of these tragic events, IMO MS's death needs further review.

The only other potential witness is RZ's little sister, XZ. She had injuries bad enough to require stitches (allegedly from cleaning up the broken chandelier). She was taken on a shopping trip by RZ then sent home 2 weeks before she was due home. I sure hope the police question her again. I would hate to think (opinion alert) that the child was bribed with a shopping trip to keep silent about what really happened.

JMO

stilettos
09-22-2011, 06:41 PM
Thank you for your response.

So the doctor alerted the authorities and they got the search warrants. This is going to be very interesting to see what unfolds.

Do you have a link supporting the statement that the Doctor alerted authorities?

CDS22
09-22-2011, 06:45 PM
Do you have a link supporting the statement that the Doctor alerted authorities?

The police used the doctor's statement to obtain the search warrants:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/130367943.html

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 06:48 PM
Thank you for your response.

So the doctor alerted the authorities and they got the search warrants. This is going to be very interesting to see what unfolds.

The way it is unfolding is certainly confirming for me that RZ's death was a suicide. It's no coincidence that a second floor balcony factors into both deaths, imo.

stilettos
09-22-2011, 06:48 PM
The police used the doctor's statement to obtain the search warrants:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/130367943.html

Thank you for the link. The key words in that report are "At first". I get that he thought that at first....if he still feels that way, he should step forward and call for further investigation.

Yoda
09-22-2011, 06:50 PM
CDS22. I realize the only other person was XZ, but if it was intentional then anyone there the week before could speak to the mood- tense, angry, etc. If it wasn't intentional and more like MS hiding in the refrigerator, or someone jokingly locking him in a dock box and not realizing the outcome, then the earlier visitors could say time was spent playing hide and seek, good natured tormenting each other as brothers and sisters do. Imo

SophieRose
09-22-2011, 06:51 PM
Remember, he didn't have cuts on his hands from grabbing the chandelier, and the marks on his back were not consistent with a fall. He also didn't have marks on his hands from trying to stop the fall, so that suggests he was already unconscious prior to falling down the stairs.
All of this is only my opinion and pure speculation on my part, but I do think that new information will be forthcoming.

And yet he was able to say "Ocean."

CDS22
09-22-2011, 06:52 PM
The way it is unfolding is certainly confirming for me that RZ's death was a suicide. It's no coincidence that a second floor balcony factors into both deaths, imo.

I agree with you. I also think that the pressure might have been building what with Max's family (father, uncle, aunt) asking questions of her, and presumably the medical authorities, too. I also think she might have planned her suicide from the moment MS was taken to the hospital and not necessarily the night she got the phone call. JMO

Yoda
09-22-2011, 06:56 PM
The way it is unfolding is certainly confirming for me that RZ's death was a suicide. It's no coincidence that a second floor balcony factors into both deaths, imo.
Actually, my thoughts were the exact opposite. When I read about the possible suffocation my second thought was "someone killed RZ because of this". IMO

elementry
09-22-2011, 06:58 PM
I agree with you. I also think that the pressure might have been building what with Max's family (father, uncle, aunt) asking questions of her, and presumably the medical authorities, too. I also think she might have planned her suicide from the moment MS was taken to the hospital and not necessarily the night she got the phone call. JMO

A shame there wasn't a more exhaustive investigation before LE pronounced it's summary verdict. It might could have lessened a lot of the angst that was left in the abbreviated investigation's wake. Now LE is in shut-down mode and all that's left is pure speculation as info leaks out in drips and drabs.

SophieRose
09-22-2011, 06:59 PM
Actually, my thoughts were the exact opposite. When I read about the possible suffocation my second thought was "someone killed RZ because of this". IMO

You don't think they would go through a court of law to get answers. Answers would be important to most people. You think they drilled her themselves and then discarded her?

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 07:01 PM
The police used the doctor's statement to obtain the search warrants:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/130367943.html

From the article you listed:

snip:

Newly obtained search warrants reveal that a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated.
A county sheriff’s investigation later confirmed that Max died after falling down the stairs in the infamous Spreckles mansion where Rebecca Zahau was found dead days later.


Source: Shacknai Boy May Have Suffocated: Doctor | NBC San Diego

I agree with you. I also think that the pressure might have been building what with Max's family (father, uncle, aunt) asking questions of her, and presumably the medical authorities, too. I also think she might have planned her suicide from the moment MS was taken to the hospital and not necessarily the night she got the phone call. JMO

Funny, the way I see things, you just made a VERY strong statement as to how Rebecca's death could be a murder. Father, Uncle, Mom, Aunt....yeppers, murder is the BEST case scenario with that much anfst and anger by the family being present.

Rhyme & Reason
09-22-2011, 07:01 PM
Abrasions on the back have nothing to do with a fall on the head. Experts state specifically that children who allegedly die or are injured in falls typically do not have any injuries on their trunks. In other words, there should be no dragging marks on a spinal cord if the fatal injuries were caused by whiplash.

Oh boy. The ME DID NOT say Max had "dragging marks" on his spinal cord!

steff13
09-22-2011, 07:03 PM
You don't think they would go through a court of law to get answers. Answers would be important to most people. You think they drilled her themselves and then discarded her?

I think if I thought someone fatally injured my child, I could be so consumed with grief and hatred that I wouldn't think about anything else other than making them pay.

steff13
09-22-2011, 07:04 PM
Oh boy. The ME DID NOT say Max had "dragging marks" on his spinal cord!

Or abrasions on his neck.

Rhyme & Reason
09-22-2011, 07:07 PM
Okay, so now we've got a doctor from Rady's stating he thinks Max was suffocated, and that Max's visible injuries were not consistent with his internal injuries. And we have a little boy with scrape marks (abrasions) down his spine, as though he were dragged down the steps. So could someone have suffocated Max, then dragged him downstairs to stage an accidental "fall" scene? Could someone have known Max suffered oxygen deprivation and would in no way recover to say what happened, long before he even got examined by doctors? Just some speculation on my part.

He said he thought that AT FIRST!!!!!!

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 07:08 PM
Oh boy. The ME DID NOT say Max had "dragging marks" on his spinal cord!

Seems to be quite a lot of 'misquotes' and incomplete quotes on multiple threads today. It really muddies the waters and makes it difficult as re posts of quotes and articles have to be re posted to redact errors. Very frustrating when facts have been proven over and over, time and time again!:banghead:

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 07:10 PM
Thank you for the link. The key words in that report are "At first". I get that he thought that at first....if he still feels that way, he should step forward and call for further investigation.

I take the words, "at first" to mean he formed his opinion at the beginning of Max's care. I doubt his opinion ever changed because there would be no medical reason to change it but I also doubt LE conveyed it to the ME. Max's parents should ask the ME to change his ruling.

JMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-22-2011, 07:13 PM
The doctor thinks he was suffocated, then went over the railing.

What????? He said no such thing!!!!! You know, when non members google this case, links come up to WS. People are going to see all of these posts of yours where you misquote and take it as fact!!!

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 07:13 PM
I take the words, "at first" to mean he formed his opinion at the beginning of Max's care. I doubt his opinion ever changed because there would be no medical reason to change it but I also doubt LE conveyed it to the ME. Max's parents should ask the ME to change his ruling.

JMO

Being in the medical field, being a mandated reporter of child abuse, I respectfully am telling you, that if this doctor was at all interested in keeping an active medical license, this would NOT be true.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 07:14 PM
He said he thought that AT FIRST!!!!!!

yes, it must have been really obvious. What is does not say is that the doctor changed his opinion.

JMO

steff13
09-22-2011, 07:17 PM
Something I did notice about the marks on his back - the AR says they are evenly spaced apart - about 1/2", IIRC. I wonder what would cause something like that?

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 07:18 PM
Being in the medical field, being a mandated reporter of child abuse, I respectfully am telling you, that if this doctor was at all interested in keeping an active medical license, this would NOT be true.

Excuse me? The doctor's opinion was used to obtain a search warrant. I don't believe the doctor's medical license is in danger.

JMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-22-2011, 07:19 PM
Has there been anything said that the sister had wet hair when police arrived? I would imagine it would be if she was in the shower.

Hi justbetweenus. On Tuesday I read somewhere that the sister was blowing out her hair. Their words. So much has been released the last few days that I have no idea where I read that, so no link. I'll check around to see if I can find a link.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:23 PM
yes, it must have been really obvious. What is does not say is that the doctor changed his opinion.

JMO

It doesn't have to say anything. The doctor made his observations based on external injuries. The doctor didn't know about the extensive spinal cord damage.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:24 PM
The way it is unfolding is certainly confirming for me that RZ's death was a suicide. It's no coincidence that a second floor balcony factors into both deaths, imo.

It makes me more suspicious.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 07:24 PM
Oh boy. The ME DID NOT say Max had "dragging marks" on his spinal cord!

At no time did I say the ME claimed he had dragging marks on his spinal cord. Please don't ascribe things to me that I haven't said.

justbetweenus
09-22-2011, 07:25 PM
Hi justbetweenus. On Tuesday I read somewhere that the sister was blowing out her hair. Their words. So much has been released the last few days that I have no idea where I read that, so no link. I'll check around to see if I can find a link.

Thanks Rhyme. Don't worry about a link.:)

CDS22
09-22-2011, 07:26 PM
It doesn't have to say anything. The doctor made his observations based on external injuries. The doctor didn't know about the extensive spinal cord damage.

Acutally, I'm pretty sure that they could have known that. What they're saying is that his external injuries didn't match the internal.

IMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-22-2011, 07:27 PM
Not if he were hit on the head first or somehow taken by surprise. However, he did have lots of contusions on his legs and face. The smaller the child the harder it is to prove suffocation via an autopsy (and the easier it is to suffocate them). RZ was more than twice MS's weight.

JMO

Links please!

CDS22
09-22-2011, 07:28 PM
Or abrasions on his neck.

Actually it does say abrasions on his clavicle, and on his nose <modsnip>. One of the signs of suffocation is marks around the nose.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 07:30 PM
CDS22. I realize the only other person was XZ, but if it was intentional then anyone there the week before could speak to the mood- tense, angry, etc. If it wasn't intentional and more like MS hiding in the refrigerator, or someone jokingly locking him in a dock box and not realizing the outcome, then the earlier visitors could say time was spent playing hide and seek, good natured tormenting each other as brothers and sisters do. Imo

I would like to hear from GS and ES. According to RZ's sister, they did not like her.

arielilane
09-22-2011, 07:32 PM
From Max's AR.https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:32 PM
Acutally, I'm pretty sure that they could have known that. What they're saying is that his external injuries didn't match the internal.

IMO

Spinal cord damage is not a visible injury. The doctor based his opinion on visible injuries.

arielilane
09-22-2011, 07:33 PM
From Max's AR.https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

CDS22
09-22-2011, 07:33 PM
Actually, my thoughts were the exact opposite. When I read about the possible suffocation my second thought was "someone killed RZ because of this". IMO

Don't you think perhaps they would first want to get the whole story out of her, and have their day in court?

Yoda
09-22-2011, 07:35 PM
You don't think they would go through a court of law to get answers. Answers would be important to most people. You think they drilled her themselves and then discarded her?

I agree, letting the LE handle the situation is what most people would do. My observation, in THIS case, with the bizarre circumstances of RZ's death, the history of being able to control physical responses when upset, and the numerous discrepencies in the evidence that we have been given, is to lean heavily to the conclusion she was murdered. IMO. I would like to be clear, I don't have all the facts. If/when more information is released I will reevaluate my position. But I am on a forum that discusses cases. I am not here to smear anyone's name. I am here to analyze the evidence and question, re-question, and debate intelligently the circumstances surrounding the case.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 07:35 PM
Spinal cord damage is not a visible injury. The doctor based his opinion on visible injuries.

The doctor said the external injuries did not match the internal injuries. They knew what MS's injuries were. The question was, how did he get them?

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:37 PM
Don't you think perhaps they would first want to get the whole story out of her, and have their day in court?

Well, yes, I would assume they could have wanted to get the whole story out of her.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:38 PM
The doctor said the external injuries did not match the internal injuries. They knew what MS's injuries were. The question was, how did he get them?
Hah? The doctor did not say external injuries did not match internal injuries. I don't believe the doctor had any idea about extensive spinal cord damage Max suffered. In fact Hinky meter explained that damage to spinal cord was not compatible with life.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 07:42 PM
CDS22. I realize the only other person was XZ, but if it was intentional then anyone there the week before could speak to the mood- tense, angry, etc. If it wasn't intentional and more like MS hiding in the refrigerator, or someone jokingly locking him in a dock box and not realizing the outcome, then the earlier visitors could say time was spent playing hide and seek, good natured tormenting each other as brothers and sisters do. Imo

Yoda, Max's body also sustained spinal, neck and blunt force head trauma. That's far beyond good natured anything imo. The child didn't get locked in a refrigerator to the point of suffocation and once out, went running down the upstairs hallway which is how LE theorized he went over the upstairs railing.

The suffocation findings of the hospital doctor does not fit with an accidental death finding of the ME.

JMO

Morag
09-22-2011, 07:43 PM
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/22/state-ag-wont-review-deaths-spreckels-mansion/


A third warrant, signed July 22, shows that Coronado police seized several items from the mansion, including an ornate chandelier found in the trash, a black T-shirt, electrical wire, a silver Razor scooter and a soccer ball. All of the items had been found and photographed in the stairwell of the home, shortly after Max was injured.

Interesting- Coronado PD was on the ball.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 07:45 PM
Hah? The doctor did not say external injuries did not match internal injuries. I don't believe the doctor had any idea about extensive spinal cord damage Max suffered. In fact Hinky meter explained that damage to spinal cord was not compatible with life.

They pretty much knew from day one that MS wouldn't survive his injuries. He was only kept on life support until they could co-ordinate organ donation. Hinky meter's okay, but they're not the medical examiner, nor are they the doctor who made the statement to police about the suffocation suspicion.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 07:47 PM
Hah? The doctor did not say external injuries did not match internal injuries. I don't believe the doctor had any idea about extensive spinal cord damage Max suffered. In fact Hinky meter explained that damage to spinal cord was not compatible with life.


Det. Thomas Atkins of the Coronado Police Department wrote, "... Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the -- the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai’s fall."

http://www.10news.com/news/29268087/detail.html

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 07:47 PM
Hah? The doctor did not say external injuries did not match internal injuries. I don't believe the doctor had any idea about extensive spinal cord damage Max suffered. In fact Hinky meter explained that damage to spinal cord was not compatible with life.

I think the attending physcian had a very good idea about Max's spinal cord damage. The child had been transferred to Rady from another hospital. I'm inclined to believe the attending physician rather than some amateur analysis on a blog.

JMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:47 PM
They pretty much knew from day one that MS wouldn't survive his injuries. He was only kept on life support until they could co-ordinate organ donation. Hinky meter's okay, but they're not the medical examiner, nor are they the doctor who made the statement to police about the suffocation suspicion.

They knew because he suffered brain damage during the CPR efforts, because it took so long to get his heart beating again. I don't believe that doctor knew about extensive spinal cord damage-it was not visible and the neck was not broken.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:49 PM
I think the attending physcian had a very good idea about Max's spinal cord damage. The child had been transferred to Rady from another hospital. I'm inclined to believe the attending physician rather than some amateur analysis on a blog.

JMO

Spinal cord damage is not a visible injury. The doctor clearly based his opinion because of visible injuries.

Rhyme & Reason
09-22-2011, 07:53 PM
At no time did I say the ME claimed he had dragging marks on his spinal cord. Please don't ascribe things to me that I haven't said.

I didn't ascribe things to you that you haven't said.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 07:54 PM
They knew because he suffered brain damage during the CPR efforts, because it took so long to get his heart beating again. I don't believe that doctor knew about extensive spinal cord damage-it was not visible and the neck was not broken.

Respectfully, I disagree with you. I think the doctors were right on the ball with Max's diagnosis and treatment. There are lots of tests available to diagnose spinal cord injuries.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 07:54 PM
And yet he was able to say "Ocean."

An impossibility, imo

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 07:56 PM
Spinal cord damage is not a visible injury. The doctor clearly based his opinion because of visible injuries.

I don't believe you are correct in your assumption.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:56 PM
Respectfully, I disagree with you. I think the doctors were right on the ball with Max's diagnosis and treatment. There are lots of tests available to diagnose spinal cord injuries.

There might be tests available but the doctor based his opinion on visible injuries. Not on any tests for spinal cord injury. Max's neck was not broken. His facial injures would not explain why he stopped breathing. So, yes, based on visible injuries one would not understand why he stopped breathing. But the visible injuries did not tell the story.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 08:00 PM
Respectfully, I disagree with you. I think the doctors were right on the ball with Max's diagnosis and treatment. There are lots of tests available to diagnose spinal cord injuries.

I also have no doubt the doctor knew the extent of Max's injuries. An insider posted on this forum days ago about his mother's belief he was suffocated. The search warrants confirm it.

JMO

CDS22
09-22-2011, 08:03 PM
I also have no doubt the doctor knew the extent of Max's injuries. An insider posted on this forum days ago about his mother's belief he was suffocated. The search warrants confirm it.

JMO

Yes, proof the insider really is an insider.

IMO

steff13
09-22-2011, 08:08 PM
Max's search warrant says that the doctor said no determination could be made as to the cause of his cardiac arrest.

IIRC, the ME says in the AR that the type of neck injury Max had causes cardiac arrest.

If the doctor at the hospital couldn't determine the cause of the cardiac arrest, doesn't that indicate that he either wasn't aware of the extent of Max's injuries, or he isn't as knowledgeable about those types of injuries as the ME is?

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 08:14 PM
I take the words, "at first" to mean he formed his opinion at the beginning of Max's care. I doubt his opinion ever changed because there would be no medical reason to change it but I also doubt LE conveyed it to the ME. Max's parents should ask the ME to change his ruling.

JMO

So are you saying that you believe LE with held information from the ME? If that is the case, and this doctor still felt this way, he could obviously present a case, in court proving it. Why did LE not make an arrest based on this doctors 'at first' findings?

I will respectfully ask you to tell me in what capacity you hold a medical degree to know that there was no reason to change his mind. Also, do you routinely have to assess situations as as a mandated reporter. There are strict laws governing this practice. Why would LE not report these findings to the ME and why would they state publicly that this was a tragic accident?


Excuse me? The doctor's opinion was used to obtain a search warrant. I don't believe the doctor's medical license is in danger.

JMO

Again, why no arrests if he was so sure of his findings? Has he gone public and stated that Max was murdered? I certainly have not seen him do so.


Abrasions on the back have nothing to do with a fall on the head. Experts state specifically that children who allegedly die or are injured in falls typically do not have any injuries on their trunks. In other words, there should be no dragging marks on a spinal cord if the fatal injuries were caused by whiplash.



<modsnip>

jjenny
09-22-2011, 08:16 PM
Max's search warrant says that the doctor said no determination could be made as to the cause of his cardiac arrest.

IIRC, the ME says in the AR that the type of neck injury Max had causes cardiac arrest.

If the doctor at the hospital couldn't determine the cause of the cardiac arrest, doesn't that indicate that he either wasn't aware of the extent of Max's injuries, or he isn't as knowledgeable about those types of injuries as the ME is?

That doctor based his opinion on visible injuries. Not on any test of the spinal cord damage. I agree he most likely was not aware of the extensive spinal cord damage, and the visible injuries would not explain why Max stopped breathing. But the spinal cord injury would, and clearly the spinal cord injury is not associated with suffocation.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 08:22 PM
That doctor based his opinion on visible injuries. Not on any internal tests. I agree he most likely was not aware of the extensive spinal cord damage, and the visible injuries would not explain why Max stopped breathing. But the spinal cord injury would, and clearly the spinal cord injury is not associated with suffocation.

BBM. Link, please.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 08:25 PM
BBM. Link, please.

What link? It's right there in the search warrant. The doctor did not think VISIBLE injuries were consistent with cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Max. It doesn't say the doctor based his opinion on any tests, just the visible injuries.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 08:27 PM
What link? It's right there in the search warrant. The doctor did not think VISIBLE injuries were consistent with cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Max. It doesn't say the doctor based his opinion on any tests, just the visible injuries.

That's not what that means. His words mean that what was on the outside did not match the internal injuries.

Dr. Brad Peterson is the director of the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit. He knows how to do tests to determine spinal cord injuries.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 08:29 PM
That's not what that means. His words mean that what was on the outside did not match the internal injuries.

Dr. Brad Peterson is the director of the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit. He knows how to do tests to determine spinal cord injuries.

It doesn't say anything about internal injuries. Says visible injuries were not consistent with cardiac arrest and brain swelling. Doesn't say anything about spinal cord injuries. Spinal cord injures is what caused Max to stop breathing. Which led to cardiac arrest and brain swelling because his brain was without oxygen.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 08:31 PM
It doesn't say anything about internal injuries. Says visible injuries were not consistent with cardiac arrest and brain swelling. Doesn't say anything about spinal cord injuries. Spinal cord injures is what caused Max to stop breathing. Which led to cardiac arrest and brain swelling because his brain was without oxygen.

Brain swelling and spinal cord injuries are internal injuries. You do know there are diagnostic tools for looking at things like spinal cord injuries, right? Here are just a few:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/spinal-cord-injury/DS00460/DSECTION=tests-and-diagnosis

jjenny
09-22-2011, 08:33 PM
Brain swelling and spinal cord injuries are internal injuries. You do know there are diagnostic tools for looking at things like spinal cord injuries, right? Here are just a few:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/spinal-cord-injury/DS00460/DSECTION=tests-and-diagnosis

The doctor hasn't mentioned a word about spinal cord injuries when he based his opinion on VISIBLE injuries. Seriously, people who claim otherwise should contact this doctor if spinal cord injuries would be consistent with cardiac arrest and the fact that Max stopped breathing, which is what caused the brain damage because his brain was not getting enough oxygen.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 08:33 PM
What link? It's right there in the search warrant. The doctor did not think VISIBLE injuries were consistent with cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Max. It doesn't say the doctor based his opinion on any tests, just the visible injuries.

How on earth do you think he determined brain swelling? It doesn't say he just based his opinion on visible injuries and did no tests. The brain swelling could not be diagnosed without tests.

JMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 08:36 PM
How on earth do you think he determined brain swelling? It doesn't say he just based his opinion on visible injuries and did no tests. The brain swelling could not be diagnosed without tests.

JMO

There is not a word about spinal cord damage to explain how the doctor formed this opinion. By the way spinal cord damage is not associated with suffocation.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 08:41 PM
There is not a word about spinal cord damage to explain how the doctor formed this opinion. By the way spinal cord damage is not associated with suffocation.

There is a word about brain swelling and brain swelling can't be diagnosed with out testing. It is kinda silly to keep insisting the doctor made such a diagnosis without doing tests.

JMO

katydid23
09-22-2011, 08:41 PM
There is not a word about spinal cord damage to explain how the doctor formed this opinion. By the way spinal cord damage is not associated with suffocation.

When the spinal cord actually pops out of the neck and breaks the connection then it is associated with the inability to breathe.

SophieRose
09-22-2011, 08:47 PM
I think if I thought someone fatally injured my child, I could be so consumed with grief and hatred that I wouldn't think about anything else other than making them pay.

So you base your opinion on what you would do? A revenge killing. And that wouldn't bring a child (MS in this case) back and would lead to more questions than answers.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 08:54 PM
There is a word about brain swelling and brain swelling can't be diagnosed with out testing. It is kinda silly to keep insisting the doctor made such a diagnosis without doing tests.

JMO

If he knew about extensive spinal cord damage and still felt that would not be consistent with Max's condition, I presume he would have mentioned the spinal cord damage to explain how he formed his opinion. Instead he based his opinion on visible injuries.

steff13
09-22-2011, 08:57 PM
So you base your opinion on what you would do? A revenge killing. And that wouldn't bring a child (MS in this case) back and would lead to more questions than answers.

I don't think someone experiencing that amount of grief would necessarily be thinking that logically. People kill for revenge all the time. People take the law into their own hands all the time. Particularly, IMO, if said person has a history of violent behavior.

I am basing my opinion on the case on numerous things, but none of them are how I think I might behave in this situation.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 09:12 PM
If he knew about extensive spinal cord damage and still felt that would not be consistent with Max's condition, I presume he would have mentioned the spinal cord damage to explain how he formed his opinion. Instead he based his opinion on visible injuries.

The simplest way I can break it down for you is that abrasions on the face and legs and back don't jive with the amount of brain swelling and the amount of cardiac arrest MS had. So the doctor put two and two together and figured out that what was claimed (MS fell down the stairs) did not match with his inability to breathe. The spinal cord injury he had is the kind someone would get from being in a speeding car and crashing without a seat belt on. Even that is an understatement. Someone else on this thread said her medical friend told her it was like whiplash from a speeding train injury. That didn't match with the bumps on his head.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 09:15 PM
The simplest way I can break it down for you is that abrasions on the face and legs and back don't jive with the amount of brain swelling and the amount of cardiac arrest MS had. So the doctor put two and two together and figured out that what was claimed (MS fell down the stairs) did not match with his inability to breathe. The spinal cord injury he had is the kind someone would get from being in a speeding car and crashing without a seat belt on. Even that is an understatement. Someone else on this thread said her medical friend told her it was like whiplash from a speeding train injury. That didn't match with the bumps on his head.

I am completely puzzled as to what you are suggesting here? Are you suggesting that Max sustained his injuries in a car crush? And by the way MS didn't fell "down the stairs." He fell into the stairwell. And since the doctor hasn't mentioned the spinal cord injuries when he suggested suffocation, I'd say it's pretty obvious he was not aware of those injuries.

revampz
09-22-2011, 09:18 PM
Have just caught up......an aha moment, so now we know why Dina thought he was suffocated. I am ALMOST willing to bet my left leg that JS also beleived this too and this is why RN died. Either murdered because of it or accused of it by above and in anger and despair (I am thinking scared of jail or hitting media etc) she committed suicide.

People are talking about child abuse and having no signs of abuse on him etc. I dont think she was abusing him, if anything maybe it was a once of lost her temper, or was chasing him while angry etc. I dont abuse my children but yesterday I lost it, really lost it with my 6 and 7 year old boys. I had to pull over in my car as I was scared I was going to have an accident. Any one with a temper, and I have red hair and a temper, knows how scary it can be when you lose it. It may not have been her either, it may have been her sister, I am not sure. I just dont think his accident happened as it has been presented, there are way too many ifs.

Her death is highly suspicious and so I am sure there is more to Max's death, other than she was not watching him, for her to be either murdered or commit suicide. Because really if we do find out this mob killed her because she just wasnt watching him properly, they deserve to by lynched. What an over reaction. Also I just cant see a woman who came from Burma, was very ambitious and strong according to her work mates and her family, kill herself because of the grief and shame of not watching a 6 year old whom not only was not her child, but she had only known for 2 years. As I said before, he had partial custody of Max and taking in the time to get to know and build a "proper" relationship with him, is not alot of time.

I also find suss 2 soccer balls now, so not only did he trip over the dog, on a scooter, but there may have also been 2 soccer balls as well for him to dodge. A bit too much. And why was the chandelier put in the bin. I know they were trying to clean it up, but is this not evidence???? and why bother cleaning up the chandelier before the ambulance arrived.?

jjenny
09-22-2011, 09:20 PM
The chandelier was not put into trash before the ambulance arrived. It was put into the trash later, because what were they going to do with a broken chandelier? LE got a search warrant and came to get it, but how would RN know it was "evidence?" They clearly didn't try to hide it, since LE was able to retrieve it from there without problems.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 09:20 PM
I am completely puzzled as to what you are suggesting here? Are you suggesting that Max sustained his injuries in a car crush? And by the way MS didn't fell "down the stairs." He fell into the stairwell. And since the doctor hasn't mentioned the spinal cord injuries when he suggested suffocation, I'd say it's pretty obvious he was not aware of those injuries.

I'm saying Max couldn't have gotten that type of fatal whip lash injury from a fall from into the stairwell, or from the stairs, or down the stairs.

JMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 09:23 PM
I'm saying Max couldn't have gotten that type of fatal whip lash injury from a fall from into the stairwell, or from the stairs, or down the stairs.

JMO

Well that's going to be news to ME who ruled his death a tragic accident. Have you tried to contact ME to inform him of his error?

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 09:25 PM
They pretty much knew from day one that MS wouldn't survive his injuries. He was only kept on life support until they could co-ordinate organ donation. Hinky meter's okay, but they're not the medical examiner, nor are they the doctor who made the statement to police about the suffocation suspicion.

If this is correct, why did Rebecca requirw a phone call in the middle of the night, to tell her about Max's change in status?


When the spinal cord actually pops out of the neck and breaks the connection then it is associated with the inability to breathe.

I have NEVER heard of a spinal cord popping 'out of the neck'. Do you mean if the spinal cord is severed, with a compound fracture? Yes you would be dead. You would have no spinal fluid left. Even a respirator could not keep you alive. Max did not have a severed spineal cord. It was twisted/whiplashed, not fractured and most certainly not sticking out.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 09:25 PM
Have just caught up......an aha moment, so now we know why Dina thought he was suffocated.

I'm assuming that the doctor mentioned in the search warrant is the same doctor who told DS that he suspected MS was suffocated.

JMO

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 09:29 PM
If he knew about extensive spinal cord damage and still felt that would not be consistent with Max's condition, I presume he would have mentioned the spinal cord damage to explain how he formed his opinion. Instead he based his opinion on visible injuries.

Not all of Max's injuries needed to be listed on a search warrant. You have repeatedly claimed the doctor made a diagnosis without doing tests and I think you are making an assumption that is an insult to the doctor's integrity.

LE didn't mention the spinal cord damage on a search warrant but that doesn't mean the doctor didn't know about it. The doctor knew about the brain swelling, relayed that information to LE and it was used to obtain a search warrant. Brain swelling can't be diagnosed without tests.

JMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 09:30 PM
Not all of Max's injuries needed to be listed on a search warrant. You have repeatedly claimed the doctor made a diagnosis without doing tests and I think you are making an assumption that is an insult to the doctor's integrity.

LE didn't mention the spinal cord damage on a search warrant but that doesn't mean the doctor didn't know about it. The doctor knew about the brain swelling, relayed that information to LE and it was used to obtain a search warrant. Brain swelling can't be diagnosed without tests.

JMO

Now you are twisting my words. I have not claimed the doctor made the diagnosis without doing tests. The doctor himself had stated he made his opinion based on VISIBLE injuries. The child had extensive spinal cord damage, which could easily explain brain swelling and cardiac arrest. Had the doctor known about extensive spinal cord damage, would he be talking about brain swelling and cardiac arrest being inconsistent with visible injuries? I think not.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 09:36 PM
I don't think someone experiencing that amount of grief would necessarily be thinking that logically. People kill for revenge all the time. People take the law into their own hands all the time. Particularly, IMO, if said person has a history of violent behavior.

I am basing my opinion on the case on numerous things, but none of them are how I think I might behave in this situation.

I don't know of too many cases where parents have murdered the person they assumed was their child's killer prior to police making an arrest. I think the usual reaction of parents is for justice and the perp spending the rest of their life in jail or awaiting on death row. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that would lead me to believe either JS or DS would choose murder rather than allow justice to take its course.

JMO

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 09:39 PM
Now you are twisting my words. I have not claimed the doctor made the diagnosis without doing tests. The doctor himself had stated he made his opinion based on VISIBLE injuries. The child had extensive spinal cord damage, which could easily explain brain swelling and cardiac arrest. Had the doctor known about extensive spinal cord damage, would he be talking about brain swelling and cardiac arrest being inconsistent with visible injuries? I think not.

I didn't twist your words.

Brain swelling is not a visible injury and requires tests to diagnose.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 09:40 PM
Not all of Max's injuries needed to be listed on a search warrant. You have repeatedly claimed the doctor made a diagnosis without doing tests and I think you are making an assumption that is an insult to the doctor's integrity.

LE didn't mention the spinal cord damage on a search warrant but that doesn't mean the doctor didn't know about it. The doctor knew about the brain swelling, relayed that information to LE and it was used to obtain a search warrant. Brain swelling can't be diagnosed without tests.

JMO

You claim that the poster is making an assumption that is an insult to the doctors integrity, however, by saying that the doctor continued to believe that Max was suffocated, yet he did nothing about it, did not go through cps or other channels or fight for Max. That is a much larger insult to a doctors integrity.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 09:41 PM
I didn't twist your words.

Brain swelling is not a visible injury and requires tests to diagnose.

JMO

Brain swelling was completely consistent with spinal cord damage, as was explained in the autopsy. I don't believe the doctor would be making claims that brain swelling was not consistent with visible injuries had he known about extensive spinal cord damage.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 09:44 PM
The simplest way I can break it down for you is that abrasions on the face and legs and back don't jive with the amount of brain swelling and the amount of cardiac arrest MS had. So the doctor put two and two together and figured out that what was claimed (MS fell down the stairs) did not match with his inability to breathe. The spinal cord injury he had is the kind someone would get from being in a speeding car and crashing without a seat belt on. Even that is an understatement. Someone else on this thread said her medical friend told her it was like whiplash from a speeding train injury. That didn't match with the bumps on his head.

I think Max's injuries are consistent with being propelled from the second floor onto the floor below. Concrete was under the carpet so it would have been a massive impact.

JMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 09:45 PM
I think Max's injuries are consistent with being propelled from the second floor onto the floor below. Concrete was under the carpet so it would have been a massive impact.

JMO

So you admit you don't believe he was suffocated?

CDS22
09-22-2011, 09:47 PM
I think Max's injuries are consistent with being propelled from the second floor onto the floor below. Concrete was under the carpet so it would have been a massive impact.

JMO

Meaning it would explain why he didn't die of a brain bleed like most head injury victims?

If he were suffocated prior to being propelled from the second floor to the floor below, it would explain why he couldn't use his hands to stop his fall and face planted.

That poor little boy. I hate to think of what his final moments inside that house were like.

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 09:52 PM
I don't know of too many cases where parents have murdered the person they assumed was their child's killer prior to police making an arrest. I think the usual reaction of parents is for justice and the perp spending the rest of their life in jail or awaiting on death row. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that would lead me to believe either JS or DS would choose murder rather than allow justice to take its course.

JMO

I would like to believe that too and imo I still feel Rebecca's death was most likely a suicide. BUT now more than ever I hope that BOTH cases are reopened. BOTH. There has always been something that has made me extremely uncomfortable about Max's death fall and there just happened to be no eye witnesses. That has bothered me for sometime and I really don't know why exactly, but with Rebecca in one bathroom and her sister supposedly in another bathroom at the very same time gives me pause.

BUT if Rebecca did not commit suicide but was killed then if something untoward was done to Max and it wasnt an accident at all that could change everything. Also if one of the doctors at the hospital told the family they thought Max had been smothered before being thrown off of the banister then I would certainly find the homicide of Rebecca more plausable than I do at the present time.

IMO

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 09:52 PM
Brain swelling was completely consistent with spinal cord damage, as was explained in the autopsy. I don't believe the doctor would be making claims that brain swelling was not consistent with visible injuries had he known about extensive spinal cord damage.

bbm. Brain swelling was mentioned on the search warrant and can not be diagnosed without testing. The child suffered blunt force trauma to the head. You are making an assumption that the brain swelling was caused by a spinal cord injury.

I doubt an insider would claim that DS believed the child was suffocated unless DS had a little more to go on than a doctor's "visual" inspection.

JMO

CDS22
09-22-2011, 09:55 PM
I would like to believe that too and imo I still feel Rebecca's death was most likely a suicide. BUT now more than ever I hope that BOTH cases are reopened. BOTH. There has always been something that has made me extremely uncomfortable about Max's death fall and there just happened to be no eye witnesses. That has bothered me for sometime and I really don't know why exactly, but with Rebecca in one bathroom and her sister supposedly in another bathroom at the very same time gives me pause.

BUT if Rebecca did not commit suicide but was killed then if something untoward was done to Max and it wasnt an accident at all that could change everything. Also if one of the doctors at the hospital told the family they thought Max had been smothered before being thrown off of the banister then I would certainly find the homicide more plausable than I do at the present time.

IMO

Just curious: If it turns out that RZ did smother MS, why would you find it more likely that she died from homicide rather than suicide? Wouldn't the guilt of killing a child be a driving factor for suicide? Or the fear of being found out and going to prison?

jjenny
09-22-2011, 09:55 PM
bbm. Brain swelling was mentioned on the search warrant and can not be diagnosed without testing. The child suffered blunt force trauma to the head. You are making an assumption that the brain swelling was caused by a spinal cord injury.

I doubt an insider would claim that DS believed the child was suffocated unless DS had a little more to go on than a doctor's "visual" inspection.

JMO

I am not making any assumption. His autopsy report says what was his cause of death.

4Jacy
09-22-2011, 09:57 PM
I don't know of too many cases where parents have murdered the person they assumed was their child's killer prior to police making an arrest. I think the usual reaction of parents is for justice and the perp spending the rest of their life in jail or awaiting on death row. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that would lead me to believe either JS or DS would choose murder rather than allow justice to take its course.
JMO

BBM

Gee, I can. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 09:58 PM
You claim that the poster is making an assumption that is an insult to the doctors integrity, however, by saying that the doctor continued to believe that Max was suffocated, yet he did nothing about it, did not go through cps or other channels or fight for Max. That is a much larger insult to a doctors integrity.

Please don't misrepresent my posts. I didn't say the doctor did nothing about his suspicion of suffocation. The search warrant makes it clear LE spoke to the doctor.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 10:00 PM
Meaning it would explain why he didn't die of a brain bleed like most head injury victims?

If he were suffocated prior to being propelled from the second floor to the floor below, it would explain why he couldn't use his hands to stop his fall and face planted.

That poor little boy. I hate to think of what his final moments inside that house were like.

So, just so there is no misunderstanding, you are saying that Max WAS suffocated. Who did this to Max? How did he get over the balcony, which caused his face plant? How did the chandelier end up on the floor next to him?

My take. Max was NOT suffocated, as the injuries from the fall could cause his heart to stop. I am amazed that ems got his heart restarted. I do, however, believe that the anger that Dina and Jonah felt about the accident was pivotal in Rebecca's death.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:02 PM
I would like to believe that too and imo I still feel Rebecca's death was most likely a suicide. BUT now more than ever I hope that BOTH cases are reopened. BOTH. There has always been something that has made me extremely uncomfortable about Max's death fall and there just happened to be no eye witnesses. That has bothered me for sometime and I really don't know why exactly, but with Rebecca in one bathroom and her sister supposedly in another bathroom at the very same time gives me pause.

BUT if Rebecca did not commit suicide but was killed then if something untoward was done to Max and it wasnt an accident at all that could change everything. Also if one of the doctors at the hospital told the family they thought Max had been smothered before being thrown off of the banister then I would certainly find the homicide of Rebecca more plausable than I do at the present time.

IMO

I think the suffocation theory makes suicide more plausible because far more people commit suicide to avoid going to jail vs. parents killing the presumed killer of their child before the killer is even arrested.

JMO

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:04 PM
Just curious: If it turns out that RZ did smother MS, why would you find it more likely that she died from homicide rather than suicide? Wouldn't the guilt of killing a child be a driving factor for suicide? Or the fear of being found out and going to prison?

ITA. Just posted something similar in fact.

coastal
09-22-2011, 10:04 PM
So, just so there is no misunderstanding, you are saying that Max WAS suffocated. Who did this to Max? How did he get over the balcony, which caused his face plant? How did the chandelier end up on the floor next to him?

My take. Max was NOT suffocated, as the injuries from the fall could cause his heart to stop. I am amazed that ems got his heart restarted. I do, however, believe that the anger that Dina and Jonah felt about the accident was pivotal in Rebecca's death.
What she said.

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 10:04 PM
Please don't misrepresent my posts. I didn't say the doctor did nothing about his suspicion of suffocation. The search warrant makes it clear LE spoke to the doctor.

JMO

I did not misrepresent your post. I gave my opinion on the situation, as compared to what physician I work and have worked with, do, to protect the children in their care. If you will be kind enough tolook at my signature line, it does say that all posts are imo.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:05 PM
I think the suffocation theory makes suicide more plausible because far more people commit suicide to avoid going to jail vs. parents killing the presumed killer of their child before the killer is even arrested.

JMO

Only she wasn't going to go to jail, considering the autopsy declared the death to be a tragic accident caused initially by damage to the spinal cord. Not suffocation!

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:06 PM
http://www.10news.com/news/29268087/detail.html

Wow so he was the head honcho of the ICU at Rady's.

Among the information presented is a potential factor in the death of Max Shacknai suggested by Dr. Brad Peterson, the head of the Intensive Care Unit at Rady Children's Hospital, that hadn't been made public previously.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:09 PM
Wow so he was the head honcho of the ICU at Rady's.

Among the information presented is a potential factor in the death of Max Shacknai suggested by Dr. Brad Peterson, the head of the Intensive Care Unit at Rady Children's Hospital, that hadn't been made public previously.

Whatever he was head honcho or not, I do not believe he was aware of the spinal cord damage. Cardiac arrest and brain swelling are completely consistent with spinal cord damage, which is what autopsy concluded. There was not a single bone broken in Max's neck which is what one might expect if this was a case of strangulation.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:12 PM
Wow so he was the head honcho of the ICU at Rady's.

Among the information presented is a potential factor in the death of Max Shacknai suggested by Dr. Brad Peterson, the head of the Intensive Care Unit at Rady Children's Hospital, that hadn't been made public previously.

Yes. Pretty significant guy with pretty significant information. I wonder if the police approached RZ for another interview after the doctor told them his suspicions. I wish there was more information about the timeline to all of this.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:13 PM
Whatever he was head honcho or not, I do not believe he was aware of the spinal cord damage. Cardiac arrest and brain swelling are completely consistent with spinal cord damage, which is what autopsy concluded. There was not a single bone broken in Max's neck which is what one might expect if this was a case of strangulation.

The doctor suspected suffocation, not strangulation.

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:15 PM
I think the suffocation theory makes suicide more plausible because far more people commit suicide to avoid going to jail vs. parents killing the presumed killer of their child before the killer is even arrested.

JMO

Who knows........I am getting very creeped out now by the head Doctor's belief concerning Max.

If it was just a spur of the moment thing then she could have regretted it afterward I suppose and that resulted in the suicide.

I just read the AG is not going to investigate the cases but I sure wish they had.:banghead:

IMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:16 PM
The doctor suspected suffocation, not strangulation.

Not a cause of death according to the autopsy.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:18 PM
Wow so he was the head honcho of the ICU at Rady's.

Among the information presented is a potential factor in the death of Max Shacknai suggested by Dr. Brad Peterson, the head of the Intensive Care Unit at Rady Children's Hospital, that hadn't been made public previously.

Exactly. And he suspected suffocation and cops got a search warrant. That's huge.

JMO

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:20 PM
Not a cause of death according to the autopsy.

My point is that you used the word strangulation when the doctor used the word suffocation. They are two different things.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:20 PM
Exactly. And he suspected suffocation and cops got a search warrant. That's huge.

JMO

They got a search warrant, removed items-and then after the autopsy declared this to be a tragic accident. His death was not caused by suffocation, it was due to spinal cord contusion sustained in the tragic accident.
Whatever the doctor believed initially was not proven in the autopsy.

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:21 PM
Whatever he was head honcho or not, I do not believe he was aware of the spinal cord damage. Cardiac arrest and brain swelling are completely consistent with spinal cord damage, which is what autopsy concluded. There was not a single bone broken in Max's neck which is what one might expect if this was a case of strangulation.

He did not say he thought Max was strangled did he? I thought he said he thought Max had been smothered before he went over the railing. Maybe I need to read what he stated to LE again.

So I guess that is where Dina is getting that he was smothered.

Why would smothering leave broken bones in Max's neck?:waitasec: It could have been done with a pillow.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:22 PM
Only she wasn't going to go to jail, considering the autopsy declared the death to be a tragic accident caused initially by damage to the spinal cord. Not suffocation!

The AR might have shown something different if they'd had the chance to question her again and put her through a lie detector test.

JMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:23 PM
He did not say he thought Max was strangled did he? I thought he said he thought Max had been smothered before he went over the railing. Maybe I need to read what he stated to LE again.

So I guess that is where Dina is getting that he was smothered.

Why would smothering leave broken bones in Max's neck?:waitasec: It could have been done with a pillow.

He didn't say Max had been smothered before he went over the railing. He didn't mention going over the railing at all.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:24 PM
The AR might have shown something different if they'd had the chance to question her again and put her through a lie detector test.

JMO

How would that alter the cause of death due to spinal contusion and not suffocation? Those are physical findings based on the injuries to the body. A spinal cord contusion would cause brain swelling and cardiac arrest. Which is why I am pretty sure that the doctor didn't know about spinal cord contusion.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:24 PM
Who knows........I am getting very creeped out now by the head Doctor's belief concerning Max.

If it was just a spur of the moment thing then she could have regretted it afterward I suppose and that resulted in the suicide.

I just read the AG is not going to investigate the cases but I sure wish they had.:banghead:

IMO

Because her family has stated she said she didn't feel any responsibility for Max's death, I think her suicide was to avoid prison rather than out of grief or guilt.

The parents can still request the ME change his ruling from accident to homicide. There doesn't need to be a reopening of the investigation to accomplish that. I did wonder if JS request for a review of the protocol was because he was upset that the ME ruled accident rather than undetermined or homicide.

JMO

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:25 PM
Because her family has stated she said she didn't feel any responsibility for Max's death, I think her suicide was to avoid prison rather than out of grief or guilt.

The parents can still request the ME change his ruling from accident to homicide. There doesn't need to be a reopening of the investigation to accomplish that. I did wonder if JS request for a review of the protocol was because he was upset that the ME ruled accident rather than undetermined or homicide.

JMO

I'm starting to think of the word "sociopath" right now.

JMO

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:26 PM
Exactly. And he suspected suffocation and cops got a search warrant. That's huge.

JMO

OMG! That is unbelievable. I think the doctor's statement is the most shocking of all things that have been revealed. But then posters on the net have also had a lot of unanswered questions about Max' death too.

I just scanned the article. I will have to go back and read it in depth.

IMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:28 PM
Because her family has stated she said she didn't feel any responsibility for Max's death, I think her suicide was to avoid prison rather than out of grief or guilt.

The parents can still request the ME change his ruling from accident to homicide. There doesn't need to be a reopening of the investigation to accomplish that. I did wonder if JS request for a review of the protocol was because he was upset that the ME ruled accident rather than undetermined or homicide.

JMO

Oh please. Based on what would ME change his ruling? ME did the autopsy and had no problem identifying a cause of death. Suffocation was nowhere to be found.

Brit
09-22-2011, 10:30 PM
Just curious: If it turns out that RZ did smother MS, why would you find it more likely that she died from homicide rather than suicide? Wouldn't the guilt of killing a child be a driving factor for suicide? Or the fear of being found out and going to prison?

Why would they declare his death as an accident and not a murder, if in the end after all of his tests they still thought he was suffocated? Are you saying that the doctors are risking their careers for this? In cases like this, doctor can be like detectives, they first make their initial hypothesis based on the evidence they first observe, and then they develop the "case" as new tests come into play. I think that this dr would be highly insulted by anyone insinuating that he felt that max was suffocated just to let his death be declared an accident.

What I will find interesting to know is when they figured out it was an accident? Was it before
or after rebecca's death? I think that is the question of the hour. And I would like to thank you CDS for bringing that to my attention!

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:31 PM
He did not say he thought Max was strangled did he? I thought he said he thought Max had been smothered before he went over the railing. Maybe I need to read what he stated to LE again.

So I guess that is where Dina is getting that he was smothered.

Why would smothering leave broken bones in Max's neck?:waitasec: It could have been done with a pillow.

If Max was smothered and then went over the railing, then the scene really was staged with scooter placed over him. I do hope LE reopens the investigation. I really doubt they interviewed the sister who was in the house at the time. RZ rushed her out of town the next day, iirc.

JMO

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:31 PM
How would that alter the cause of death due to spinal contusion and not suffocation? Those are physical findings based on the injuries to the body. A spinal cord contusion would cause brain swelling and cardiac arrest. Which is why I am pretty sure that the doctor didn't know about spinal cord contusion.

I just find that hard to believe. He seemed to have been on Max' case. Money talks as so many people say on here and I have no doubt the head doctor came in and knew all about Max's injuries including the spinal cord contusion and condition.

IMO

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:33 PM
Oh please. Based on what would ME change his ruling? ME did the autopsy and had no problem identifying a cause of death. Suffocation was nowhere to be found.

An ME can change manner of death from accident to something else.

JMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:34 PM
I just find that hard to believe. He seemed to have been on Max' case. Money talks as so many people say on here and I have no doubt the head doctor came in and knew all about Max's injuries including the spinal cord contusion and condition.

IMO

The spinal cord contusion is what led to Max's death according to the autopsy.
It is completely consistent with causing brain swelling (due to lack of oxygen) and cardiac arrest. The doctor certainly mentioned nothing about spinal cord damage when he based his opinion on visible injuries not being consistent with brain swelling and cardiac arrest.

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:34 PM
If Max was smothered and then went over the railing, then the scene really was staged with scooter placed over him. I do hope LE reopens the investigation. I really doubt they interviewed the sister who was in the house at the time. RZ rushed her out of town the next day, iirc.

JMO

BBM

That gives me pause too.

Why the rush. Why not let her sister stay so she would have someone with her that was family knowing Jonah would be away all the time at the hospital or the RM house.

IMO

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:35 PM
I just find that hard to believe. He seemed to have been on Max' case. Money talks as so many people say on here and I have no doubt the head doctor came in and knew all about Max's injuries including the spinal cord contusion and condition.

IMO

Absolutely. LE wouldn't have persuaded a Judge to sign a search warrant if the doctor was offering an opinion with no degree of certainty.

JMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:36 PM
BBM

That gives me pause too.

Why the rush. Why not let her sister stay so she would have someone with her that was family knowing Jonah would be away all the time at the hospital or the RM house.

IMO

Do you know who wanted the sister gone? After all, it's not RN's house, is it?

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:37 PM
Why would they declare his death as an accident and not a murder, if in the end after all of his tests they still thought he was suffocated? Are you saying that the doctors are risking their careers for this? In cases like this, doctor can be like detectives, they first make their initial hypothesis based on the evidence they first observe, and then they develop the "case" as new tests come into play. I think that this dr would be highly insulted by anyone insinuating that he felt that max was suffocated just to let his death be declared an accident.

What I will find interesting to know is when they figured out it was an accident? Was it before
or after rebecca's death? I think that is the question of the hour. And I would like to thank you CDS for bringing that to my attention!

It can be really hard to prove smothering in an autopsy. The smaller the child, the harder it is to prove smothering. For example, it's near impossible to prove it in an infant because such a small amount of pressure is needed. MS weighed less than half of RZ's weight. He did have marks on his nose as well as abrasions on his clavicle. That could indicate someone pushing on him enough to smother him.

JMO

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:38 PM
The spinal cord contusion is what led to Max's death according to the autopsy.
It is completely consistent with causing brain swelling (due to lack of oxygen) and cardiac arrest. If the doctor was asked now, I am pretty sure he would not say Max's condition was due to suffocation. He certainly mentioned nothing about spinal cord damage when he based his opinion on visible injuries not being consistent with brain swelling and cardiac arrest.

Why do you say that? I imagine if asked he would tell exactly what he told LE. He doesnt have to agree with the ME.

Maybe he didn't think the contusion would have been enough to completely shut off his breathing.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:38 PM
BBM

That gives me pause too.

Why the rush. Why not let her sister stay so she would have someone with her that was family knowing Jonah would be away all the time at the hospital or the RM house.

IMO

I'd like to know where attorney Bremner got her "planking" theory. It had to be from the sister or someone in her family. All together, it does give pause.

JMO

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:38 PM
If Max was smothered and then went over the railing, then the scene really was staged with scooter placed over him. I do hope LE reopens the investigation. I really doubt they interviewed the sister who was in the house at the time. RZ rushed her out of town the next day, iirc.

JMO

Was the shopping trip a bribe in exchange for silence? Just wondering out loud....

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:39 PM
Why do you say that? I imagine if asked he would tell exactly what he told LE. He doesnt have to agree with the ME.

Maybe he didn't think the contusion would have been enough to completely shut off his breathing.

Well according to the autopsy it was. I don't know what else to say about this topic, except the doctor had his opinion in the initial stages and never mentioned spinal cord damage at all as a basis for his opinion.

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:40 PM
Do you know who wanted the sister gone? After all, it's not RN's house, is it?

No but it was her sister and she was certainly welcome to come there or she wouldn't have been there in the first place.

What does it matter who's house it was? She is the one that took her to the airport the very next day.

Why would Jonah care.........he wasnt even staying there.

IMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:41 PM
No but it was her sister and she was certainly welcome to come there or she wouldn't have been there in the first place.

What does it matter who's house it was? She is the one that took her to the airport the very next day.

Why would Jonah care.........he wasnt even staying there.

IMO

She also picked up DS's sister from the airport. Do you think that was her idea as well?

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:43 PM
No but it was her sister and she was certainly welcome to come there or she wouldn't have been there in the first place.

What does it matter who's house it was? She is the one that took her to the airport the very next day.

Why would Jonah care.........he wasnt even staying there.

IMO

The Daily Beast article said XZ was supposed to be staying there for 2 weeks but went home early .

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:44 PM
It can be really hard to prove smothering in an autopsy. The smaller the child, the harder it is to prove smothering. For example, it's near impossible to prove it in an infant because such a small amount of pressure is needed. MS weighed less than half of RZ's weight. He did have marks on his nose as well as abrasions on his clavicle. That could indicate someone pushing on him enough to smother him.

JMO

The AR is consistent with smothering. I don't recall the exact wording but lack of oxygenated blood circulating in the body was the primary cause of his death. A huge red flag is that RZ was not performing CPR on the child when LE arrived. Who knows how long he had been lying there? It is a miracle that they got his heart beating again.

JMO

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:44 PM
Absolutely. LE wouldn't have persuaded a Judge to sign a search warrant if the doctor was offering an opinion with no degree of certainty.

JMO

Ah.......now that is a very valid point.

Now I am thinking about the traces of benzo they first found.

IMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:45 PM
Ah.......now that is a very valid point.

IMO

They also got judge to sign search warrants in RN's case. You don't think that valid?

Brit
09-22-2011, 10:46 PM
It can be really hard to prove smothering in an autopsy. The smaller the child, the harder it is to prove smothering. For example, it's near impossible to prove it in an infant because such a small amount of pressure is needed. MS weighed less than half of RZ's weight. He did have marks on his nose as well as abrasions on his clavicle. That could indicate someone pushing on him enough to smother him.

JMO
Again, I wonder if they figured out it was an accident before or after rebecca's death.
CDS, I have to say, you just opened up a whole new thought process for me and probably lots of others and I truly appreciate that! I never even questioned if at first it was thought That ms death was a suffocation and then to figure out a day or two later that it was an accident after all, of course after all the tests. It really would be interesting to know if they figured out that it was an accident before or after rebecca's death. Thx again CDS!

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:47 PM
The AR is consistent with smothering. I don't recall the exact wording but lack of oxygenated blood circulating in the body was the primary cause of his death. A huge red flag is that RZ was not performing CPR on the child when LE arrived. Who knows how long he had been lying there? It is a miracle that they got his heart beating again.

JMO

I mentioned that about RZ not giving CPR to MS when LE walked in. I also mentioned that she told them she gave "a few" rescue breaths.

I can't imagine how long that poor child lay there while they got the balls, the scooter, the chandelier, etc., and place them just so.

JMO

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:48 PM
She also picked up DS's sister from the airport. Do you think that was her idea as well?

I am not sure what you mean.

I am sure her sister flew into visit with her for two weeks in the summer.

Why wouldnt she be the one to pick her up at the airport? Yes, I think that was her idea as well.

imo

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:48 PM
Ah.......now that is a very valid point.

Now I am thinking about the traces of benzo they first found.

IMO

Wow! I forgot about that! So much we haven't been told such as whether the child was even up and out of bed when his father left the house that morning.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:49 PM
I am not sure what you mean.

I am sure her sister flew into visit with her for two weeks in the summer.

Why wouldnt she be the one to pick her up at the airport? Yes, I think that was her idea as well.

imo

Not her sister. The sister of her husband's ex-wife.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:49 PM
Again, I wonder if they figured out it was an accident before or after rebecca's death.
CDS, I have to say, you just opened up a whole new thought process for me and probably lots of others and I truly appreciate that! I never even questioned if at first it was thought That ms death was a suffocation and then to figure out a day or two later that it was an accident after all, of course after all the tests. It really would be interesting to know if they figured out that it was an accident before or after rebecca's death. Thx again CDS!

You're welcome. I think a lot of us just want to know the truth, particularly when the victim is a child.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:50 PM
Wow! I forgot about that! So much we haven't been told such as whether the child was even up and out of bed when his father left the house that morning.

Didn't that recent article claim the child went to the airport with his father to put the two teenagers onto the plane to go home that very morning?

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:51 PM
They also got judge to sign search warrants in RN's case. You don't think that valid?

Of course I do.

But all along they seem to be saying that Max' death was an accident but now that more info has been released that couldn't have been the case if they got a SW after the doctor at Rady's talked to LE.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 10:51 PM
I mentioned that about RZ not giving CPR to MS when LE walked in. I also mentioned that she told them she gave "a few" rescue breaths.

I can't imagine how long that poor child lay there while they got the balls, the scooter, the chandelier, etc., and place them just so.

JMO

Link to the words 'a few rescue breaths' please.

Wendy101
09-22-2011, 10:52 PM
Did I read that properly?

XZ was upstairs (in the bathroom shower) when she heard RZ yell for her to call 911 as she (RZ) was performing CPR...

Doc thinks Max was smothered prior to the fall from upstairs?

XZ leaves on a plane to go home? Who took her? Where does she live?

She saved him, can you save her .. takes on a whole new meaning in my mind.....

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:52 PM
Wow! I forgot about that! So much we haven't been told such as whether the child was even up and out of bed when his father left the house that morning.

According to the Daily Beast, JS took GS, ES, and MS to the airport earlier that day. Then he went to the gym for a workout and planned on coming back to take MS to the zoo. I imagine MS playing quietly by the door waiting for his father to come back to take him to the zoo, and then this happens. I wonder if the benzo could have happened a day or two before the accident and that's why only trace amounts showed up in the blood.

thinkingstraight
09-22-2011, 10:52 PM
I'd like to know where attorney Bremner got her "planking" theory. It had to be from the sister or someone in her family. All together, it does give pause.

JMO

It would have to be someone in their family. And if they claim planking was the cause of the accident, then they can't claim they didn't see it. But that wouldn't explain why it looked like the scooter was involved or the soccer balls or dog or chandelier . And let's just throw in a banana peel for good measure. I am so confused. SOMEONE is lying. But why??? That is the question.
IMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:53 PM
According to the Daily Beast, JS took GS, ES, and MS to the airport earlier that day. Then he went to the gym for a workout and planned on coming back to take MS to the zoo. I imagine MS playing quietly by the door waiting for his father to come back to take him to the zoo, and then this happens. I wonder if the benzo could have happened a day or two before the accident and that's why only trace amounts showed up in the blood.

Benzo was a false positive. A second test did not show any benzo present.

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:54 PM
Wow! I forgot about that! So much we haven't been told such as whether the child was even up and out of bed when his father left the house that morning.

The local reporters should be camping on the front steps of the LE office asking many more questions about Max' death.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:56 PM
Benzo was a false positive. A second test did not show any benzo present.

How long in between was the tests done? These were tests taken at the hopital, right?

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 10:56 PM
Wow! I forgot about that! So much we haven't been told such as whether the child was even up and out of bed when his father left the house that morning.

That's funny, Jonah said he brought all three kids to the airport that morning to drop the two older ones off for a 6 am flight. So are you saying that it is incorrect? That he didn't go to the airport that morning?

jjenny
09-22-2011, 10:57 PM
The local reporters should be camping on the front steps of the LE office asking many more questions about Max' death.

IMO

They should start with the doctor who initially offered the suffocation idea. Ask him if spinal cord contusion such as Max had could cause brain swelling and cardiac arrest.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 10:57 PM
It would have to be someone in their family. And if they claim planking was the cause of the accident, then they can't claim they didn't see it. But that wouldn't explain why it looked like the scooter was involved or the soccer balls or dog or chandelier . And let's just throw in a banana peel for good measure. I am so confused. SOMEONE is lying. But why??? That is the question.
IMO

To me, it's obvious why someone is lying - to cover up a murder. <modsnip>
JMO

Brit
09-22-2011, 10:59 PM
No but it was her sister and she was certainly welcome to come there or she wouldn't have been there in the first place.

What does it matter who's house it was? She is the one that took her to the airport the very next day.

Why would Jonah care.........he wasnt even staying there.

IMO

If my 13 year old daughter was hurt and needed however many stitches, and was around this serious situation with a child having a horrible fall, you better believe that I will want my child home as soon as possible. This little girl has a mother and father, for all we know the parents could've requested her immediate return home. I know for an absolute fact that I would make this request myself. This little girl had to call 911 for a little boy who had this terrible fall, and I can just imagine how max must've looked and how scary it must have been for this little girl to have to deal with this situation. An aside note, I bet that most of the adults on this form have never witnessed anything as traumatic as what this girl must have gone thru, how shaken up would you be as an adult? Not imagine yourself at 13, and how you would feel. so the fact that this girl should go home immediately should surprise no parent.

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 10:59 PM
Again, I wonder if they figured out it was an accident before or after rebecca's death.
CDS, I have to say, you just opened up a whole new thought process for me and probably lots of others and I truly appreciate that! I never even questioned if at first it was thought That ms death was a suffocation and then to figure out a day or two later that it was an accident after all, of course after all the tests. It really would be interesting to know if they figured out that it was an accident before or after rebecca's death. Thx again CDS!

Keep in mind, Max died days after Rebecca. LE do not obtain search warrants if they suspect an accident.

If the head of the ICU told police he suspected suffocation, I don't see any reason for him to change his opinion. That poor little boy and his parents. What a horrific thing to go through.

JMO

oceanblueeyes
09-22-2011, 10:59 PM
According to the Daily Beast, JS took GS, ES, and MS to the airport earlier that day. Then he went to the gym for a workout and planned on coming back to take MS to the zoo. I imagine MS playing quietly by the door waiting for his father to come back to take him to the zoo, and then this happens. I wonder if the benzo could have happened a day or two before the accident and that's why only trace amounts showed up in the blood.

I wonder how long it took them to do these tests after he arrived. They had to start pushing fluids through him I would think and that would speed the process up and dilute the level some......maybe.

IMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 11:00 PM
How long in between was the tests done? These were tests taken at the hopital, right?

It was done on the same blood sample.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 11:00 PM
Did I read that properly?

XZ was upstairs (in the bathroom shower) when she heard RZ yell for her to call 911 as she (RZ) was performing CPR...

Doc thinks Max was smothered prior to the fall from upstairs?

XZ leaves on a plane to go home? Who took her? Where does she live?

She saved him, can you save her .. takes on a whole new meaning in my mind.....

XZ lives in Missouri. RZ took her to the airport. Prior to the airport, she took her on a shopping spree. Prior even to that, XZ went to the clinic for stitches since she was injured. She left before she was due back for another appointment to remove the sutures. So very, very strange.

And get this - "She saved him", according to the Zahau family lawyer's blog, was really written as "She save him". Broken English from a non-native English speaker, perhaps?

CDS22
09-22-2011, 11:02 PM
I wonder how long it took them to do these tests after he arrived. They had to start pushing fluids through him I would think and that would speed the process up and dilute the level some......maybe.

IMO

I don't know but there is an article posted on this thread (I posted it) where they say the benzo perhaps did not show up in the second test because either there was no benzo there to begin with, or because the amount was too small to be detected. In other words, there still could have been benzo in the boy's blood but not enough to be detected.

SophieRose
09-22-2011, 11:05 PM
I mentioned that about RZ not giving CPR to MS when LE walked in. I also mentioned that she told them she gave "a few" rescue breaths.

I can't imagine how long that poor child lay there while they got the balls, the scooter, the chandelier, etc., and place them just so.

JMO

And MS autopsy report says:

He was at the bottom of a 15 foot staircase and chandelier was next to him. It was unclear why he fell or if he had fallen on top of the chandelier or the chandelier fell on top of him.

Was there any proof that he had come in contact with the chandelier?

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 11:06 PM
To me, it's obvious why someone is lying - to cover up a murder. <modsnip>
JMO

I think a more appropriate question is why they would blame Rebecca for the accidental death of Max, and carry out a murder, staged to try and look like a suicide.

You know CD there is a lot of true evil in this world. I do not however, believe that Rebecca or XZ were capable of that kind of evil toward a 6 year old child, or any other person.

I have absolutely no problem believing however, that a man who makes it a habit to have people investigated and uses his dog to attack his wife, is capable of any type of evil that exists in this world.

bessie
09-22-2011, 11:07 PM
I'm reading a lot of conjecture here, even medical opinions, throughout the thread. It's a policy here at Websleuths to back up statements with a link either to an MSM item or a verified reference source. Please keep that in mind as you continue posting. Thanks.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 11:10 PM
And MS autopsy report says:

He was at the bottom of a 15 foot staircase and chandelier was next to him. It was unclear why he fell or if he had fallen on top of the chandelier or the chandelier fell on top of him.

Was there any proof that he had come in contact with the chandelier?

I've always wondered why he didn't have cuts or abrasions on his hands from clutching (allegedly) a falling chandelier. I also have been suspicious of how the chandelier was placed (my word) at his shoulder. It didn't seem consistent with a chandelier crashing with a child swinging from it.

This is all just my opinion, of course.

Wendy101
09-22-2011, 11:10 PM
XZ lives in Missouri. RZ took her to the airport. Prior to the airport, she took her on a shopping spree. Prior even to that, XZ went to the clinic for stitches since she was injured. She left before she was due back for another appointment to remove the sutures. So very, very strange.

And get this - "She saved him", according to the Zahau family lawyer's blog, was really written as "She save him". Broken English from a non-native English speaker, perhaps?

Injured? how? The warrants say she was upstairs in the shower and heard RZ yell for her to call 911.... or did I read that wrong?

Shopping spree?? After lil Maz was rushed to the hospital? He had no pulse when he was rushed to hospital (according to the warrant) ... a shopping spree?? WTH?

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 11:10 PM
According to the Daily Beast, JS took GS, ES, and MS to the airport earlier that day. Then he went to the gym for a workout and planned on coming back to take MS to the zoo. I imagine MS playing quietly by the door waiting for his father to come back to take him to the zoo, and then this happens. I wonder if the benzo could have happened a day or two before the accident and that's why only trace amounts showed up in the blood.

thanx! What really stands out is that RZ didn't go along to the airport. Why not? Was she invited to the zoo? It's been said that DS didn't want her alone with Max and it appears DS may have had sound reasons.

JMO

jjenny
09-22-2011, 11:11 PM
thanx! What really stands out is that RZ didn't go along to the airport. Why not? Was she invited to the zoo? It's been said that DS didn't want her alone with Max and it appears DS may have had sound reasons.

JMO

If DS didn't want RN alone with Max, why didn't JS get a nanny?

Morag
09-22-2011, 11:12 PM
thanx! What really stands out is that RZ didn't go along to the airport. Why not? Was she invited to the zoo? It's been said that DS didn't want her alone with Max and it appears DS may have had sound reasons.

JMO

With the exception of my darling son, there is no kid I would go to the airport for at 6am. That is the job of a blood relative.

SophieRose
09-22-2011, 11:13 PM
Link to the words 'a few rescue breaths' please.

MS autopsy report.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

She gave a few rescue breaths and yelled for Xena who then called 9-1-1 at 1010 hours.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 11:16 PM
Injured? how? The warrants say she was upstairs in the shower and heard RZ yell for her to call 911.... or did I read that wrong?

Shopping spree?? After lil Maz was rushed to the hospital? He had no pulse when he was rushed to hospital (according to the warrant) ... a shopping spree?? WTH?

Yes, you are correct about RZ, XZ, and the shower. My opinion is that it's strange XZ could hear RZ calling for her to call 911, but could not hear the alleged crash that took place when MS fell.

Yes, they went shopping, according to RZ's other sister, and she used it as an example that RZ wasn't upset about MS's injuries. We don't know where they shopped or what they bought.

Edited because I forgot to add how XZ was injured. According to the AR, she had to get stitches in her leg for cuts received while allegedly cleaning up chandelier pieces. There is an article posted on this forum where one of RZ's sisters claims RZ sent her an email asking her to be sure to clean the cuts on XZ's hands (the sister is a nurse).

Curious Me
09-22-2011, 11:17 PM
Didn't that recent article claim the child went to the airport with his father to put the two teenagers onto the plane to go home that very morning?

I read that article, but wondered why it came out then. Was it part of the PR? Did JS take his two teenagers to the airport and take MS along? I imagine that wasn't something LE would look into, but could be very important.

jjenny
09-22-2011, 11:18 PM
I read that article, but wondered why it came out then. Was it part of the PR? Did JS take his two teenagers to the airport and take MS along?

That's what the article claimed. I have no way of knowing if any of it is true.

thinkingstraight
09-22-2011, 11:21 PM
Some of these posts tonight are making me really sad and mad! Im going to kiss my kid and go to bed.
Poor Max!!! My heart is so heavy

MyBelle
09-22-2011, 11:21 PM
I wonder how long it took them to do these tests after he arrived. They had to start pushing fluids through him I would think and that would speed the process up and dilute the level some......maybe.

IMO

I'm not sure which hospital did the test for the benzo. It may not have been repeated if it was done by the first hospital. levels of benzo would be far down the list of priorities at that time I would think. He was so critically injured.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 11:23 PM
XZ lives in Missouri. RZ took her to the airport. Prior to the airport, she took her on a shopping spree. Prior even to that, XZ went to the clinic for stitches since she was injured. She left before she was due back for another appointment to remove the sutures. So very, very strange.

And get this - "She saved him", according to the Zahau family lawyer's blog, was really written as "She save him". Broken English from a non-native English speaker, perhaps?

I would like to see links that state shopping spree please, as no one knows ehat/ehrtr they shopped for, or how much shopping they did.

As for the ME report, I think the police report that states Rebecca was doing cpr is more accurate than a second hand report.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 11:24 PM
thanx! What really stands out is that RZ didn't go along to the airport. Why not? Was she invited to the zoo? It's been said that DS didn't want her alone with Max and it appears DS may have had sound reasons.

JMO

I don't know, but the Daily Beast article (already posted here) specifically states that JS was going to take MS to the zoo. No mention of what RZ and XZ were going to do.

DS is a psychologist. She must be astute at picking up things about people.

IMO

Quester
09-22-2011, 11:26 PM
SW (warrant_41290.pdf) states that LE removed a “BLACK T-Shirt (cut)” from the mansion on 7/15.

Same SW also states that on 7/11:
“The photographs taken at the time depict a gold-color – gold in color ornate chandelier with glass beads. The photographs also depict a silver Razor scooter with orange design, two soccer balls, one Adidas, and one Wilson, and a black shirt in the area where [MS] was discovered.”


My question: I wonder if, when MS fell from the balcony banister onto the chandelier, his black t-shirt got caught up on the chandelier causing the “cut” in the t-shirt? TIA

jjenny
09-22-2011, 11:27 PM
SW (warrant_41290.pdf) states that LE removed a “BLACK T-Shirt (cut)” from the mansion on 7/15.

Same SW also states that on 7/11:
“The photographs taken at the time depict a gold-color – gold in color ornate chandelier with glass beads. The photographs also depict a silver Razor scooter with orange design, two soccer balls, one Adidas, and one Wilson, and a black shirt in the area where [MS] was discovered.”


My question: I wonder if, when MS fell from the balcony banister onto the chandelier, his black t-shirt got caught up on the chandelier causing the “cut” in the t-shirt? TIA

Maybe he was wearing the shirt and paramedics removed it because they tried to get his heart going again. So the cut would be because it was cut off him?

Wendy101
09-22-2011, 11:28 PM
I think a more appropriate question is why they would blame Rebecca for the accidental death of Max, and carry out a murder, staged to try and look like a suicide.You know CD there is a lot of true evil in this world. I do not however, believe that Rebecca or XZ were capable of that kind of evil toward a 6 year old child, or any other person.

I have absolutely no problem believing however, that a man who makes it a habit to have people investigated and uses his dog to attack his wife, is capable of any type of evil that exists in this world.

Perhaps whoever killed RZ (or ordered to have her killed) had the "Max was sufficated" stuck in her/his head and wouldn't accept that whatever happened to Max was an accident?

I have to wonder when were Diana and Jonah notified that Max was not sufficated like originally thought? Was it after Rebeccas death?

Was there any contact by cell between JS and RZ during the time period Max was in the hospital until his death?
If everything was so lovley between JS and RZ why didn't Rebecca join JS in his hotel room? I can see her not being arounf Diana....but why not be there for JS... did he tell her not to be??