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arielilane
09-11-2011, 01:43 PM
MS's autopsy report:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

CDS22
09-11-2011, 02:35 PM
Rebecca Zahau case: How Max’s accident didn’t happen


http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

CDS22
09-11-2011, 02:36 PM
Max Shacknai Autopsy Review


http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

If this scenario is correct, that means that Max could not have said "Ocean" as Rebecca claims.

jjenny
09-11-2011, 02:55 PM
Max Shacknai Autopsy Review


http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

If this scenario is correct, that means that Max could not have said "Ocean" as Rebecca claims.

I don't see anything in there to indicate he couldn't have said something. Just because somebody sustains fatal injuries doesn't mean they can not initially talk. It's called a "lucid period."

CocoChanel
09-11-2011, 03:06 PM
Max Shacknai Autopsy Review


http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

If this scenario is correct, that means that Max could not have said "Ocean" as Rebecca claims.

I have been wondering if perhaps MS cried out the dog's name as he tripped and fell, but before he landed? In that way it could have possibly been the last thing he said.

His death makes me so very sad.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 03:07 PM
I don't see anything in there to indicate he couldn't have said something. Just because somebody sustains fatal injuries doesn't mean they can not initially talk. It's called a "lucid period."

If the severing was as severe as the report states, he couldn't breathe without assistance immediately at the scene of the accident. That's what the analysis says. If he couldn't breathe, then he couldn't talk. That means he couldn't have a lucid period.

jjenny
09-11-2011, 03:31 PM
If the severing was as severe as the report states, he couldn't breathe without assistance immediately at the scene of the accident. That's what the analysis says. If he couldn't breathe, then he couldn't talk. That means he couldn't have a lucid period.

I don't know if he said anything or not-I was not there. But he is only alleged to have said one word. I am not convinced he couldn't have said something before passing out.

katydid23
09-11-2011, 03:36 PM
I don't know if he said anything or not-I was not there. But he is only alleged to have said one word. I am not convinced he couldn't have said something before passing out.

From the description in the autopsy of the severe injuries which occurred on impact, I do not believe he could speak at that time. I think if he could, he would be crying or whimpering, or calling for his mom or dad, not simply saying 'Ocean.' imoo

katydid23
09-11-2011, 03:38 PM
I have been wondering if perhaps MS cried out the dog's name as he tripped and fell, but before he landed? In that way it could have possibly been the last thing he said.

His death makes me so very sad.

I don't think so, unless RN was not telling the truth about her version. She said she was in the downstairs bathroom, and the first thing she heard was the crash of the glass upon the floor.

But if you're theory is correct, then she witnessed more than she originally admitted to.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 03:43 PM
I have been wondering if perhaps MS cried out the dog's name as he tripped and fell, but before he landed? In that way it could have possibly been the last thing he said.

His death makes me so very sad.

According to the report, doesn't she state she heard the crash, ran to him, then heard him say "Ocean"?

CDS22
09-11-2011, 03:46 PM
From the description in the autopsy of the severe injuries which occurred on impact, I do not believe he could speak at that time. I think if he could, he would be crying or whimpering, or calling for his mom or dad, not simply saying 'Ocean.' imoo

I recently read somewhere how "Mommy" is the most common thing for anyone, whether child or adult, to say in moments of extreme duress. Sailors who were dying at sea (from starvation or illness) were claimed to have whimpered for their mothers in their last moments. I can't imagine the name of his father's girlfriend's dog being the last word he uttered, even if he could talk (which I don't believe he could have, based on the autopsy report).

CDS22
09-11-2011, 03:50 PM
I don't think so, unless RN was not telling the truth about her version. She said she was in the downstairs bathroom, and the first thing she heard was the crash of the glass upon the floor.

But if you're theory is correct, then she witnessed more than she originally admitted to.

My husband and I were discussing this. We have two rambunctious boys, and we are always aware of where they are in the house by the sounds that they make. If Max were upstaired, as RZ claims, and she in the downstairs bathroom, she should have been able to hear the sounds that precipitated the crash. If he were climbing the railing to "plank", as has been alleged (and I don't believe that for a second for numerous reasons), she should have heard him pulling something over to the railing. Plus, there was nothing there that he could have climbed over to reach the railing. If he was riding his scooter or tripped over the dog, she would have heard him running. Little boys on the second floor make a lot of noise for those below on the first floor.

katydid23
09-11-2011, 03:51 PM
I recently read somewhere how "Mommy" is the most common thing for anyone, whether child or adult, to say in moments of extreme duress. Sailors who were dying at sea (from starvation or illness) were claimed to have whimpered for their mothers in their last moments. I can't imagine the name of his father's girlfriend's dog being the last word he uttered, even if he could talk (which I don't believe he could have, based on the autopsy report).

Exactly. I worked for 10 years in the public school system. Much of it was on the playground during lunch and recess. I witnessed the aftermath of many accidents, some requiring ambulances unfortunately. Falls from playground equipment, sports injuries, even fights. When comforting and caring for the accident victims, the ones who could 'speak' were almost always whimpering or crying for their mom's.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 04:18 PM
I also find it strange that the other person who was in the house with Max and RZ when the accident happened didn't get treated at the hospital.

Snowem Horwath other sister Mary Zahau also said the same about Rebecca’s death on July, she spoke to her the day before she asked her (Mary who is a nurse) who to clean their 13 year-old sister cuts on her hands as a result from cleaning the glass from the chandelier in /Max’s accident

http://celebritydaily.net/tv/snowem-horwath-and-mary-zahau-loehner-are-rebecca-nalepas-sisters/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=snowem-horwath-and-mary-zahau-loehner-are-rebecca-nalepas-sisters

Was there any mention in the police report about the person who called 911 being in the house at the time of the accident? It only mentions them seeing RZ by Max's body, not doing CPR, but calling out his name.

And why did she refer to Max as her son, and her little sister as her daughter? Very strange stuff.

Ted Greenberg was one of the last people to see Rebecca Nalepa alive.

She had called his kennel, Camp Diggity Dogs, to pick up Ocean, the family’s 14-month-old Weimaraner the afternoon following the Monday accident that left her boyfriend's son with serious injuries.

“She asked us to come get the dog, because she wanted to get to the hospital to see her child,” Greenberg said. “I understand it’s (her boyfriend's) son, but I guess she thought of him as hers.”

“She called about 4:40 pm,” he said. “She told me about the accident and said that her daughter was also injured.”

Nalepa wanted him to take the dog right away, but that proved impossible. “We were really busy,” Greenberg said. “I asked her if she could bring the dog in, but she said she didn’t have time, that she had to get to the hospital.”

The move to the kennel was also delayed because Ocean’s vaccinations weren’t up-to-date. Greenberg couldn't take the dog to the veterinarian for Nalepa until Tuesday

http://coronado.patch.com/articles/local-kennel-owner-saw-spreckels-victim-less-than-24-hours-before-her-death

jjenny
09-11-2011, 04:19 PM
The sister most likely would have been injured afterwards. I presume at the time Max was injured the sister didn't start cleaning up the glass right away. So she wouldn't have been taken to the hospital to treat her injuries because she didn't have any yet.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 04:25 PM
The sister most likely would have been injured afterwards. I presume at the time Max was injured the sister didn't start cleaning up the glass right away. So she wouldn't have been taken to the hospital to treat her injuries because she didn't have any yet.

Okay, but why wasn't she taken to the hospital after she cleaned up glass? If her wounds were such that RZ told the dog guy that her daughter (meaning sister, I assume) was also injured, why didn't a doctor see her? Why go shopping then fly the girl home to get treated?

jjenny
09-11-2011, 04:32 PM
Okay, but why wasn't she taken to the hospital after she cleaned up glass? If her wounds were such that RZ told the dog guy that her daughter (meaning sister, I assume) was also injured, why didn't a doctor see her? Why go shopping then fly the girl home to get treated?

I frankly don't know why the 13 year old would be cleaning up glass to begin with? One would think a millionaire would have called a cleaning service or have a cleaning persons already but I guess in this case one would be wrong.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 04:39 PM
I frankly don't know why the 13 year old would be cleaning up glass to begin with? One would think a millionaire would have called a cleaning service or have a cleaning persons already but I guess in this case one would be wrong.

Or maybe someone wanted it cleaned up before the usual staff got there, if they did have a usual staff. I would assume they had to have had staff for a mansion that size.

jjenny
09-11-2011, 04:43 PM
Or maybe someone wanted it cleaned up before the usual staff got there, if they did have a usual staff. I would assume they had to have had staff for a mansion that size.

Why in the world would they wanted it cleaned up before usual staff got there if they actually had staff? If someone was paid for cleaning why have a child do it? By the way in all the reporting I've yet to see anyone mentioning any usual staff.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 04:59 PM
Why in the world would they wanted it cleaned up before usual staff got there if they actually had staff? If someone was paid for cleaning why have a child do it? By the way in all the reporting I've yet to see anyone mentioning any usual staff.

Perhaps making sure everything is put away and disposed of. Who knows? Maybe someone or more than one person didn't want something seen.

SophieRose
09-11-2011, 04:59 PM
I recently read somewhere how "Mommy" is the most common thing for anyone, whether child or adult, to say in moments of extreme duress. Sailors who were dying at sea (from starvation or illness) were claimed to have whimpered for their mothers in their last moments. I can't imagine the name of his father's girlfriend's dog being the last word he uttered, even if he could talk (which I don't believe he could have, based on the autopsy report).
Sharon Tate called out for her mother as she was being stabbed.

oceanblueeyes
09-11-2011, 05:01 PM
Or maybe someone wanted it cleaned up before the usual staff got there, if they did have a usual staff. I would assume they had to have had staff for a mansion that size.

Even if I had maid service I wouldn't wait to clean up shards of glass. As the chandelier hit the carpeted/concrete floor the crystals probably shattered in various directions. It is amazing how far glass pieces can go when shattered.

Rebecca sure wouldn't want the glass shards to be embedded in the carpet or tiny pieces on top where if someone stepped in that area it could go through their shoe soles into the bottom of their foot.

So I can understand why the glass was picked up by her sister then. She was 13...not a baby and she probably just got tiny cuts here and there from handling it. Her sister probably told her to just clean them good and put some neosporyn on them and band-aides.

IMO

jjenny
09-11-2011, 05:06 PM
Perhaps making sure everything is put away and disposed of. Who knows? Maybe someone or more than one person didn't want something seen.

Both police and paramedics have already been on the scene.

SophieRose
09-11-2011, 05:07 PM
Okay, but why wasn't she taken to the hospital after she cleaned up glass? If her wounds were such that RZ told the dog guy that her daughter (meaning sister, I assume) was also injured, why didn't a doctor see her? Why go shopping then fly the girl home to get treated?
Her sister was hurt on Monday morning and flew home sometime on Tuesday. The dog guy first came around 4ish on Monday. The sister could have seen a doctor prior to that time. Although when I first heard that her sister was injured, the context made it sound like her sister might also be in the hospital and she needed to also see her. But on Monday her sister would have still been at the house. In fact didn't the guy say there were two women there, so the sister must look older or the guy didn't get a good look.

oceanblueeyes
09-11-2011, 05:07 PM
I want to know where the energy and force came from that would be necessary to launch him over and out so far that he came in contact with the chandelier enough that it broke the heavy chain from the ceiling.

SophieRose
09-11-2011, 05:16 PM
I want to know where the energy and force came from that would be necessary to launch him over and out so far that he came in contact with the chandelier enough that it broke the heavy chain from the ceiling.
I try to figure that out too. The LE diagram has him running from the left side. If you look at the layout of the house he wouldn't have had enought time and room to run that fast. From the master room on the right, there is a longer straight distance and he may have had more time to get a good running start, but I just don't see it.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 05:17 PM
Even if I had maid service I wouldn't wait to clean up shards of glass. As the chandelier hit the carpeted/concrete floor the crystals probably shattered in various directions. It is amazing how far glass pieces can go when shattered.

Rebecca sure wouldn't want the glass shards to be embedded in the carpet or tiny pieces on top where if someone stepped in that area it could go through their shoe soles into the bottom of their foot.

So I can understand why the glass was picked up by her sister then. She was 13...not a baby and she probably just got tiny cuts here and there from handling it. Her sister probably told her to just clean them good and put some neosporyn on them and band-aides.

IMO

I wonder why Rebecca didn't do the clean up herself? Also, if the cuts were that minor, why did she tell the kennel guy that her "daughter" was also injured and put her on par with a critically injured child?

CocoChanel
09-11-2011, 05:18 PM
MS's autopsy report:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

From the autopsy report linked above, on page 3:

Body Description:
On 7/16/11 at approximately 1605 hours, Max was viewed supine on a hospital gurney with life support measures in place. He was clad in an Adidas shirt and gray shorts. Medical paraphenalia noted on the body consisted of an endotracheal tube, bilateral intravenous (IV) lines in the upper extremities, a Foley catheter, nasogastric tube, and IV access line in his left foot. Abrasions were noted to the back and face.

BBM
Most likely this has no bearing, but I am curious about MS being clad in an Adidas shirt and shorts. I have blessedly never lost a child, but have experienced my son in ICU on life support with no clear diagosis of what illness was making him so sick he could not breath. There were several hours where we did not know if we were going to lose him or not. He miraculously recovered from what was later determined to be toxic shock syndrome. My point is that he was in the typical hospital gown attire during his time in ICU. I wonder about MS being in play clothes. I suppose it could be that once his parents had realized there was no hope, they wanted him to be comfortable in what he loved best to wear as he left this life. I certainly do not pass judgement on what any family would do in such tragic circumstances. I just found it different than what I would expect, and wondered if anyone else had any insight.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 05:19 PM
I try to figure that out too. The LE diagram has him running from the left side. If you look at the layout of the house he wouldn't have had enought time and room to run that fast. From the master room on the right, there is a longer straight distance and he may have had more time to get a good running start, but I just don't see it.

I agree as well. I also don't buy the planking claim made by the Zahau family attorney because he would have fallen downwards and not up into the chandelier.

jjenny
09-11-2011, 05:21 PM
I wonder why Rebecca didn't do the clean up herself? Also, if the cuts were that minor, why did she tell the kennel guy that her "daughter" was also injured and put her on par with a critically injured child?
Both of them could have been cleaning but only the sister got injured. And by the way the word "injured" isn't reserved for the critically injured only.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 05:27 PM
Both of them could have been cleaning but only the sister got injured. And by the way the word "injured" isn't reserved for the critically injured only.

No, but she lumped them in the same sentence. "Her daughter was injured as well". Just seems contradictory to discuss Max's injuries, then say "my daughter was injured as well" while Max is on life support and the sister is flying home after a shopping trip to get first aid from a relative. If they were that inconsequential, why mention them?

CocoChanel
09-11-2011, 05:32 PM
I agree as well. I also don't buy the planking claim made by the Zahau family attorney because he would have fallen downwards and not up into the chandelier.

Not if he was planking on the uppermost railing. Then he would have started the fall from above the chandelier, no?

CDS22
09-11-2011, 05:38 PM
Not if he was planking on the uppermost railing. Then he would have started the fall from above the chandelier, no?

I was looking at a picture on the very first thread about this case. It shows that the child would have to have fallen across at a pretty wide angle in order to hit the chandelier. He wouldn't have the momentum to do that if he were planking.

And if he were planking (which I don't buy), who was taking the photo? Another child? An adult?

CocoChanel
09-11-2011, 05:50 PM
I was looking at a picture on the very first thread about this case. It shows that the child would have to have fallen across at a pretty wide angle in order to hit the chandelier. He wouldn't have the momentum to do that if he were planking.

And if he were planking (which I don't buy), who was taking the photo? Another child? An adult?

It would take someone much more skilled than I in physics and calculations to prove what is or isn't possible regarding tragectory and momentum from that uppermost railing or any other.

If planking was a factor, I don't think it was done to document the feat. I think it would have been careless risky play done impulsively without thought of consequence or recognition.

LaLaw2000
09-11-2011, 06:19 PM
I have no idea how little Max injured himself, but I just do not buy LE's projection of the accident.

It was a tragic accident regardless of how it happened. No one is actually to blame, IMO.

I hope Max is resting in peace. GB him!

arielilane
09-11-2011, 06:32 PM
I want to know where the energy and force came from that would be necessary to launch him over and out so far that he came in contact with the chandelier enough that it broke the heavy chain from the ceiling. Hi Oceanblueeyes,Your question is exactly what I am having the most trouble with. As I think LE did as well, hence, the illustration they presented.

arielilane
09-11-2011, 06:34 PM
I was looking at a picture on the very first thread about this case. It shows that the child would have to have fallen across at a pretty wide angle in order to hit the chandelier. He wouldn't have the momentum to do that if he were planking.

And if he were planking (which I don't buy), who was taking the photo? Another child? An adult? Hi CDS, I don't buy the planking, either.

However, "IF" (a big if) MS was planking by himself, he may not have been concerned that a picture wasn't being taken. After all, he was only six years old. jmo

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 06:38 PM
If the severing was as severe as the report states, he couldn't breathe without assistance immediately at the scene of the accident. That's what the analysis says. If he couldn't breathe, then he couldn't talk. That means he couldn't have a lucid period.

I don't see that the AR says anything was severed. The AR does say that RN was not giving CPR when the officer arrived.

According to the AR, lack of oxygen to the brain is what killed him.

JMO

CDS22
09-11-2011, 06:47 PM
I don't see that the AR says anything was severed. The AR does say that RN was not giving CPR when the officer arrived.

According to the AR, lack of oxygen to the brain is what killed him.

JMO

There was an analysis that I posted the link to earlier. The person analyzing the autopsy report says that the spinal cord was stretched, making it impossible for Max to breathe. If he couldn't breathe, he couldn't talk (as in saying "Ocean"). I also am disturbed that RZ said she was giving the child CPR (so says the report) but when the officer walked in, she was not.

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 06:55 PM
I agree as well. I also don't buy the planking claim made by the Zahau family attorney because he would have fallen downwards and not up into the chandelier.

The attorney apparently pulled her planking scenario out of thin air before the AR was released that reports a scooter was found on top of the boy's leg. Now that she knows about the scooter, I doubt she will continue with the planking theory.

I'd like someone to ask the attorney to explain the scooter on Max's leg and why didn't Rebecca start CPR prior to the arrival of the officer.

JMO

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 07:00 PM
There was an analysis that I posted the link to earlier. The person analyzing the autopsy report says that the spinal cord was stretched, making it impossible for Max to breathe. If he couldn't breathe, he couldn't talk (as in saying "Ocean"). I also am disturbed that RZ said she was giving the child CPR (so says the report) but when the officer walked in, she was not.

Exactly. It really doesn't matter the reason Max couldn't breathe, what matters is that he needed immediate CPR to keep his blood circulating to the brain and didn't receive it.

JMO

CDS22
09-11-2011, 07:00 PM
The attorney apparently pulled her planking scenario out of thin air before the AR was released that reports a scooter was found on top of the boy's leg. Now that she knows about the scooter, I doubt she will continue with the planking theory.

I'd like someone to ask the attorney to explain the scooter on Max's leg and why didn't Rebecca start CPR prior to the arrival of the officer.

JMO

The scooter is what made me think there was a staging.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 07:05 PM
Exactly. It really doesn't matter the reason Max couldn't breathe, what matters is that he needed immediate CPR to keep his blood circulating to the brain and didn't receive it.

JMO

Yes, plus she couldn't know about the spinal cord injury so she should have been doing CPR from the get-go and not stopped until help arrived. AS gave RS CPR for a long time (and was witnessed doing it by officers and firefighters on the scene) and only stopped when they told him to. Pity a small child wasn't given the same privilege.

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 07:07 PM
The scooter is what made me think there was a staging.

I'm starting to agree with you. Do we know where RN's sister lives? I'm wondering if she was whisked out of town the next morning so that LE couldn't ask her questions.

JMO

jjenny
09-11-2011, 07:08 PM
Yes, plus she couldn't know about the spinal cord injury so she should have been doing CPR from the get-go and not stopped until help arrived. AS gave RS CPR for a long time (and was witnessed doing it by officers and firefighters on the scene) and only stopped when they told him to. Pity a small child wasn't given the same privilege.

AS gave RN CPR for a long time and was witnessed doing it? Where did you get this information? How did he give her CPR? Her hands were bound behind her back, she couldn't even be laid flat on her back. She was also already in rigor.
And never mind that giving her CPR was useless, since she was already dead for hours.

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 07:09 PM
Yes, plus she couldn't know about the spinal cord injury so she should have been doing CPR from the get-go and not stopped until help arrived. AS gave RS CPR for a long time (and was witnessed doing it by officers and firefighters on the scene) and only stopped when they told him to. Pity a small child wasn't given the same privilege.

The AR sure does open up a lot of questions but then, maybe that is what the ME intended.

JMO

jjenny
09-11-2011, 07:12 PM
The AR sure does open up a lot of questions but then, maybe that is what the ME intended.

JMO

ME don't write their reports so people can come up with a lot of questions.

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 07:13 PM
AS gave RN CPR for a long time and was witnessed doing it? Where do you get this info, do tell? How did he give her CPR? Her hands were bound behind her back, she couldn't even be laid flat on her back. She was also already in rigor.
And never mind that giving her CPR was useless, since she was already dead for hours.

The point is that no CPR was being given to Max when the Officer arrived on scene. Deprivation of oxygen to his brain cost the child his life, according to the AR.

JMO

CDS22
09-11-2011, 07:14 PM
I'm starting to agree with you. Do we know where RN's sister lives? I'm wondering if she was whisked out of town the next morning so that LE couldn't ask her questions.

JMO

I've been reading past threads to try to find that out. Seems to me they'd want to question a witness.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 07:16 PM
AS gave RN CPR for a long time and was witnessed doing it? Where did you get this information? How did he give her CPR? Her hands were bound behind her back, she couldn't even be laid flat on her back. She was also already in rigor.
And never mind that giving her CPR was useless, since she was already dead for hours.

It's in the AR. And he didn't know it was useless, just like RZ didn't know it was useless to give little Max the same privilege.

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 07:16 PM
Yes, plus she couldn't know about the spinal cord injury so she should have been doing CPR from the get-go and not stopped until help arrived. AS gave RS CPR for a long time (and was witnessed doing it by officers and firefighters on the scene) and only stopped when they told him to. Pity a small child wasn't given the same privilege.

For all we know, he may have recovered from that spinal cord injury. The ME noted it was bruised so I don't agree with the blogger who opines it wasn't fixable. The ME didn't say that, did he?

JMO

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 07:20 PM
It's in the AR. And he didn't know it was useless, just like RZ didn't know it was useless to give little Max the same privilege.

CPR wasn't useless on Max. EMT's did manage to restore a heartbeat. While they were doing that, they would also be pumping oxygen into his lungs.

JMO

CDS22
09-11-2011, 07:20 PM
For all we know, he may have recovered from that spinal cord injury. The ME noted it was bruised so I don't agree with the blogger who opines it wasn't fixable. The ME didn't say that, did he?

JMO

I don't know because it was all in technical language.

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 07:26 PM
I don't know because it was all in technical language.

OK. I'll go back and look I don't believe there is any mention that the spinal injury wasn't fixable.

MyBelle
09-11-2011, 07:28 PM
It says he did it from when he found her til they arrived and continued to administer CPR til they told him to stop. More than what little Max got.

Interesting that you picked up on that point about CPR being noted in both Autopsy Reports. I didn't, so thanks! Does open up lotsa questions about Max not getting CPR right away.

JMO

Salem
09-11-2011, 07:33 PM
Posts regarding Rebecca and her autopsy go here: Rebecca's Autopsy - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Please let's try to keep the thread on topic.

Thanks,

Salem

arielilane
09-11-2011, 08:46 PM
I don't see that the AR says anything was severed. The AR does say that RN was not giving CPR when the officer arrived.

According to the AR, lack of oxygen to the brain is what killed him.

JMO Unfortunately, RZ nor or sister may not have been trained on CPR.

Exactly. It really doesn't matter the reason Max couldn't breathe, what matters is that he needed immediate CPR to keep his blood circulating to the brain and didn't receive it.

JMO

Yes, plus she couldn't know about the spinal cord injury so she should have been doing CPR from the get-go and not stopped until help arrived. AS gave RS CPR for a long time (and was witnessed doing it by officers and firefighters on the scene) and only stopped when they told him to. Pity a small child wasn't given the same privilege.

The point is that no CPR was being given to Max when the Officer arrived on scene. Deprivation of oxygen to his brain cost the child his life, according to the AR.

JMO
Typically the 911 operator will instruct a person with CPR procedures. Why hasn't the 911 call been released or has it?

CDS22
09-11-2011, 08:59 PM
Unfortunately, RZ nor or sister may not have been trained on CPR.

RZ allegedly worked in a laser surgery office and assisted during surgery. Wouldn't she have been trained in CPR if she assisted in surgeries?

arielilane
09-11-2011, 09:17 PM
RZ allegedly worked in a laser surgery office and assisted during surgery. Wouldn't she have been trained in CPR if she assisted in surgeries?
No, you would be amazed.

curiousjo
09-11-2011, 09:46 PM
Interesting, detailed article about MS:


http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

"So, what the hell happened to Max? Why did he die? Why couldn’t the specialized doctors in the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit save him?

No one could save Max, once he fell. The fatal damage was done before anyone even found him. You see, Max suffered a tragic, somewhat rare injury that was not fixable. Somewhere, during his fall, he sustained a neck hyperextension injury that essentially “unplugged” his spinal cord from his brainstem. The injury didn’t sever the cord– or cardiac arrest would have been irreversible. But the hyperextension injury stretched Max’s spinal cord in such an extreme manner, that he essentially almost unplugged his spinal cord from his brainstem. This produced the cardiac arrest at the scene. There is no amount or quality of CPR or advanced care that can overcome a shredded spinal cord at the junction of the brainstem. The fall set in motion the series of events that lead to his death 4 days later. The autopsy report confirms this. And for those who are conspiracy theorists…no assassin is that lucky; no way. It was an accident."

Salem
09-11-2011, 09:51 PM
Yes, plus she couldn't know about the spinal cord injury so she should have been doing CPR from the get-go and not stopped until help arrived. AS gave RS CPR for a long time (and was witnessed doing it by officers and firefighters on the scene) and only stopped when they told him to. Pity a small child wasn't given the same privilege.

Hi CDS22 -- you need to link up this information that discusses how long RN performed CPR on MS, please or state it as your opinion and not as fact.

Thanks,

Salem

SophieRose
09-11-2011, 10:08 PM
I'm starting to agree with you. Do we know where RN's sister lives? I'm wondering if she was whisked out of town the next morning so that LE couldn't ask her questions.

JMO
Someone posted the younger sister's school, she lives in Missouri, perhaps with older sister Mary.

CDS22
09-11-2011, 10:08 PM
Hi CDS22 -- you need to link up this information that discusses how long RN performed CPR on MS, please or state it as your opinion and not as fact.

Thanks,

Salem

Thank you for the correction. I am new here and just getting familiar with the rules.

Here is my correction:

RZ did not do CPR on MS from the time they phoned from help until help arrived because the AR says they found her calling MS and not performing CPR. CPR was, however, performed by paramedics for 25-30 minutes:

When Officer Erhard arrived, he saw Rebecca kneeled beside Max. She was crying and yelling the child’s name. Max was ashen, unresponsive, and did not appear to be breathing.” Officer Erhard summoned fire department rescue personnel. CPR was reportedly started by Max’s father’s girlfriend. Upon paramedic’s arrival, CPR was continued, and cardiotonic medications were administered. During a second round of epinephrine, he had spontaneous return of circulation. The estimated duration of CPR was 25-30 minutes.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

MoonlightPath
09-11-2011, 10:55 PM
Not sure if anyone else has already suggested this but I wonder if the reason Max said "Ocean" (if he did) could be because the dog actually bumped him causing him to fall? I know my dogs have bumped into me and caused me to lose my balance many times!

CocoChanel
09-11-2011, 11:03 PM
Thank you for the correction. I am new here and just getting familiar with the rules.

Here is my correction:

RZ did not do CPR on MS from the time they phoned from help until help arrived because the AR says they found her calling MS and not performing CPR. CPR was, however, performed by paramedics for 25-30 minutes:

When Officer Erhard arrived, he saw Rebecca kneeled beside Max. She was crying and yelling the child’s name. Max was ashen, unresponsive, and did not appear to be breathing.” Officer Erhard summoned fire department rescue personnel. CPR was reportedly started by Max’s father’s girlfriend. Upon paramedic’s arrival, CPR was continued, and cardiotonic medications were administered. During a second round of epinephrine, he had spontaneous return of circulation. The estimated duration of CPR was 25-30 minutes

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

I disagree with your conclusion that this AR entry proves HOW LONG RZ was doing CPR on MS. The statement says she was calling his name at the time the officer arrived. It also states that CPR was started by RZ. It does not dispute that. But it is certainly within your right to dispute whatever parts of the AR you choose to.

Plumeria5
09-11-2011, 11:47 PM
How does the Razor Scooter tie into the accident?

i.b.nora
09-12-2011, 12:25 AM
There is a copy of Max's Autopsy Report here (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en)

Maybe that's what people should reference when discussing what it actually says rather than HinkyMeter's opinion report and analysis of what it says.
This is not a criticism of the HinkyMeter report, but it is just one person's opinion of an official document that everyone can access.

JBean
09-12-2011, 12:28 AM
There is a copy of Max's Autopsy Report here (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en)

Maybe that's what people should reference when discussing what it actually says rather than HinkyMeter's opinion report and analysis of what it says.
This is not a criticism of the HinkyMeter report, but it is just one person's opinion of an official document that everyone can access.
Good point-thank you. It is also in the OP.

thinkingstraight
09-12-2011, 01:09 AM
The whole "Ocean" statement sounds like something you might hear in a soap opera. Or a bad western. Just contrived sounding. IMO.

Plumeria5
09-12-2011, 01:16 AM
How does the Razor Scooter tie into the accident?

The autopsy says part of the scooter was lying across his shin. What I am asking is do you think he was riding it, had it in his hands, just landed on it, or threw it over the bannister or something else?

CocoChanel
09-12-2011, 09:24 AM
The autopsy says part of the scooter was lying across his shin. What I am asking is do you think he was riding it, had it in his hands, just landed on it, or threw it over the bannister or something else?

My gut tells me it was involved in the accident somehow, otherwise how would it come to be there on MS. But it was not part of the accident scenario presented at the presser, so it goes into the category of unanswered questions I guess. I hope JS and DS have more information than this. It would be horrible to have to face the loss of a child especially if you didn't have a reasonable explanation of how it occurred.

CDS22
09-12-2011, 09:59 AM
Just wondering what everyone here thinks Max's injuries were caused by?

CDS22
09-12-2011, 10:00 AM
The whole "Ocean" statement sounds like something you might hear in a soap opera. Or a bad western. Just contrived sounding. IMO.

Indeed, it does sound very contrived and unbelievable, along with the scooter placed just so against his leg.

CocoChanel
09-12-2011, 10:07 AM
Just wondering what everyone here thinks Max's injuries were caused by?

My opinion is that he might have tried to jump from one of the railings to grab hold of the chandelier and swing. Perhaps the scooter was already on the first floor and was knocked onto him by his fall. For me, it's just hard to visualize how the chandelier came into play otherwise.

CDS22
09-12-2011, 10:12 AM
My opinion is that he might have tried to jump from one of the railings to grab hold of the chandelier and swing. Perhaps the scooter was already on the first floor and was knocked onto him by his fall. For me, it's just hard to visualize how the chandelier came into play otherwise.

That's what bothers me, too. I have looked at pictures of the inside of the area of the house where Max's injuries were alleged to have occured, and don't see how he could have gotten the chandelier to crash on top of him or beneath him, not without major equipment, like a super tall ladder, that wasn't at the scene.

CocoChanel
09-12-2011, 10:19 AM
The autospsy report answered one of my questions: how would the hyperextension of the spinal cord occur?
From page 5 of the AR:

The pattern of injuries is consistent with a face first impact on the floor from a fall, causing the skull fracture, hyperextension of the neck (bending the head backward), and subsequent injury to the spinal cord.

Personal note: It is very hard to read the AR knowing this was the death of this precious child. I can't even imagine how it would feel if I was a parent or family member reading it, AND knowing it was public information subject to srutinization by someone like me. :(

CDS22
09-12-2011, 10:22 AM
The autospsy report answered one of my questions: how would the hyperextension of the spinal cord occur?
From page 2 of the AR:



Personal note: It is very hard to read the AR knowing this was the death of this precious child. I can't even imagine how it would feel if I was a parent or family member reading it, AND knowing it was public information subject to srutinization by someone like me. :(

What I don't understaqnd is how he got the hyperextension of the spinal cord? Is it saying that his face was hit with such impact that his head was thrown back enough to hyperextend the spinal cord? If so, that was quite a force, not enough to happen from a mere fall down those number of steps, in my very humble opinion.

jjenny
09-12-2011, 10:24 AM
What I don't understaqnd is how he got the hyperextension of the spinal cord? Is it saying that his face was hit with such impact that his head was thrown back enough to hyperextend the spinal cord? If so, that was quite a force, not enough to happen from a mere fall down those number of steps, in my very humble opinion.

Well obviously it was enough. Because really there is no doubt he died in a fall.

CocoChanel
09-12-2011, 10:29 AM
Note:
I editted my post to reflect the CORRECT page on the AR that discussed the hyperextension injury. It was on page 5 not page 2 as I had mistakenly cited in my inital post #76 above.

Sorry for the confusion.

CDS22
09-12-2011, 10:31 AM
Well obviously it was enough. Because really there is no doubt he died in a fall.

Perhaps there is no doubt in your mind about what happened, but there is plenty of doubt in other people's minds. For example, we don't know (those of us who doubt the original story) if the child was thrown.

CocoChanel
09-12-2011, 10:33 AM
What I don't understaqnd is how he got the hyperextension of the spinal cord? Is it saying that his face was hit with such impact that his head was thrown back enough to hyperextend the spinal cord? If so, that was quite a force, not enough to happen from a mere fall down those number of steps, in my very humble opinion.

I'm just not seeing him falling down the steps at all, but rather a freefall through the air from the uppermost railing, IMHO.

CDS22
09-12-2011, 10:35 AM
I'm just not seeing him falling down the steps at all, but rather a freefall through the air from the uppermost railing, IMHO.

What could make him have such a fall? I've read older threads where people have suggested it could have been the dog, because he was a hyper breed that isn't a good mix for small children. But how could a dog propel a child over a railing? And doesn't the angle seem odd to you? (The angle from the railing to the chandelier).

sdcali
09-12-2011, 12:59 PM
What I don't understaqnd is how he got the hyperextension of the spinal cord? Is it saying that his face was hit with such impact that his head was thrown back enough to hyperextend the spinal cord? If so, that was quite a force, not enough to happen from a mere fall down those number of steps, in my very humble opinion.


BBM

It was not a fall down the steps...According to LE, it was a fall from the second story bannister to the ground on the flrst floor.

scorekeeper
09-12-2011, 01:01 PM
What I don't understaqnd is how he got the hyperextension of the spinal cord? Is it saying that his face was hit with such impact that his head was thrown back enough to hyperextend the spinal cord? If so, that was quite a force, not enough to happen from a mere fall down those number of steps, in my very humble opinion.

Do you have a link for MS falling down the stairs. I thought he went over the railing at the top step. TIA

What could make him have such a fall? I've read older threads where people have suggested it could have been the dog, because he was a hyper breed that isn't a good mix for small children. But how could a dog propel a child over a railing? And doesn't the angle seem odd to you? (The angle from the railing to the chandelier).

If, and that is a big IF, the dog was involved.....could it be possible that MS and the dog were running down the hall, the dog turned to go down the steps, and MS 'jumped' over the dog....propelling himself over the railing and into the chandelier and causing him to land fully on his face and causing his fatal injuries.

Just a thought.......

CDS22
09-12-2011, 01:08 PM
Do you have a link for MS falling down the stairs. I thought he went over the railing at the top step. TIA





Here you go:

The child "had fallen from stairs and was not breathing and did not have a pulse," Coronado Police Chief Louis Scanlon said last Thursday

http://abcnews.go.com/US/spreckels-mansion-death-boy-max-schacknai-dies/story?id=14097880

CDS22
09-12-2011, 01:09 PM
BBM

It was not a fall down the steps...According to LE, it was a fall from the second story bannister to the ground on the flrst floor.

Can you link me to the part that says from the second story bannister to the ground on the first floor? I've just posted a quote from the sheriff stating it was a fall from stairs, not from a bannister.

jjenny
09-12-2011, 01:16 PM
Can you link me to the part that says from the second story bannister to the ground on the first floor? I've just posted a quote from the sheriff stating it was a fall from stairs, not from a bannister.

Have you looked at the model presented of how they think it happened? The child didn't fell onto the stairs. He went over the railing onto the floor.

Carpe Pacem
09-12-2011, 01:22 PM
In other words, he's believed to have fallen down the stairwell, not the stairs.

CDS22
09-12-2011, 01:23 PM
Have you looked at the model presented of how they think it happened? The child didn't fell onto the stairs. He went over the railing onto the floor.

There is a direct quote in an above post that states he fell from the stairs.

jjenny
09-12-2011, 01:23 PM
In other words, he's believed to have falled down the stairwell, not the stairs.

Yes, of course.

jjenny
09-12-2011, 01:24 PM
There is a direct quote in an above post that states he fell from the stairs.

I really don't care much for a quote when in the final presentation LE clearly illustrated what they believe had happened.

Carpe Pacem
09-12-2011, 01:27 PM
Meant to type FALLEN down the stairwell. (Need two cups of coffee to have literate typing fingers).

CDS22
09-12-2011, 01:33 PM
What about the small bit of tranquilizer that might have been in Max's blood? The first test was positive, and the second could not confirm it. This is what they had to say about it:

"In a forensic laboratory it is standard practice to do two independent tests. One is a presumptive test and the second is a confirmatory test," said Dr. Jain, the director of National Toxicology Laboratories in Buena Park, CA.

Jain said there are a couple reasons why the second HPLD/DAD test would come back with a different result of "Not Detected."

"Number one is that the presumptive test was totally negative; there was no benzodiazepine drug present. It could be totally, 100% false positive," Dr. Jain said. "And secondly, there may be a minuscule amount of benzodiazepine" in the blood that was not detected in the second test.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15398193/toxicologist-test-showing-tranquilizer-in-shacknai-boys-blood-likely-a-false-positive

CDS22
09-12-2011, 01:34 PM
I really don't care much for a quote when in the final presentation LE clearly illustrated what they believe had happened.

So you believe the LE when it comes to Max's death but not to Rebecca's? Because the also have illustrated what they believe happened.

jjenny
09-12-2011, 01:38 PM
So you believe the LE when it comes to Max's death but not to Rebecca's? Because the also have illustrated what they believe happened.

Makes about as much sense as believing LE when it comes to RN's death but arguing that Max's death wasn't an accident, does it not?

CDS22
09-12-2011, 01:42 PM
Makes about as much sense as believing LE when it comes to RN's death but arguing that Max's death wasn't an accident, does it not?

Actually, there are those who believe Max's death was an accident, but that it didn't happen the way that RZ stated it did to the police (saying she heard no sound til the crash). Big difference.

CDS22
09-12-2011, 01:43 PM
Another thing that troubles me is the chandelier. How could someone of Max's weight and size bring down a chandelier? Those things are usually bolted in so tight it's almost impossible to bring them down without special tools.

oceanblueeyes
09-12-2011, 01:47 PM
The autospsy report answered one of my questions: how would the hyperextension of the spinal cord occur?
From page 5 of the AR:



Personal note: It is very hard to read the AR knowing this was the death of this precious child. I can't even imagine how it would feel if I was a parent or family member reading it, AND knowing it was public information subject to srutinization by someone like me. :(

It just broke my heart reading Max' autopsy report.

IMO

MyBelle
09-12-2011, 04:13 PM
Actually, there are those who believe Max's death was an accident, but that it didn't happen the way that RZ stated it did to the police (saying she heard no sound til the crash). Big difference.

I'm of the opinion the ME should have listed Max's death as undetermined. There was no explanation for the scooter on his leg plus the broken chandelier. The only way for the scooter to go from the second floor to the bottom of the stairwell is if someone tossed the scooter over the railing, it caught the chandelier and Max tried to intervene.

JMO

CDS22
09-12-2011, 04:17 PM
I'm of the opinion the ME should have listed Max's death as undetermined. There was no explanation for the scooter on his leg plus the broken chandelier. The only way for the scooter to go from the second floor to the bottom of the stairwell is if someone tossed the scooter over the railing, it caught the chandelier and Max tried to intervene.

JMO

I agree. While I don't think that someone set out to kill or injure Max that day, I also don't believe we're getting the full story of what happened. Is that because RZ and her sister didn't witness the incident as they claim, or did something someone doesn't want revealed, happen? I'm convinced RZ and/or her sister knew more than they revealed, but that is only my opinion and could be completely wrong.

MyBelle
09-12-2011, 04:29 PM
I agree. While I don't think that someone set out to kill or injure Max that day, I also don't believe we're getting the full story of what happened. Is that because RZ and her sister didn't witness the incident as they claim, or did something someone doesn't want revealed, happen? I'm convinced RZ and/or her sister knew more than they revealed, but that is only my opinion and could be completely wrong.

I think Rebecca witnessed it but her sister did not and that is why we will never know what really happened. But we do know from the AR that she told LE that the scooter had been upstairs and that Max had been told not to ride it.

JMO

arielilane
09-12-2011, 08:43 PM
I can't fathom how the chandelier plays in with Max's accident.
Stupid question: CA folks was there any earthquake tremors the day of Max's accident?
The scooter is questionable as well. But, can be explained easier. I need to reread the autopsy report again. It's not something one dives right into. Sweet Max.


I do want to express my appreciation towards DS and JS with regard to their unselfish decision to donate Max's organs. I can't imagine their pain.

justbetweenus
09-12-2011, 09:50 PM
I think Rebecca witnessed it but her sister did not and that is why we will never know what really happened. But we do know from the AR that she told LE that the scooter had been upstairs and that Max had been told not to ride it.

JMO

I agree with you. One of those girls know/knew what happened. I found her scooter statement kinda odd. She stated that Max was told not to ride the scooter upstairs, but she did see it up there a couple days ago.

I have a few theories, but lets say he was riding the scooter up there, and someone angry, grabbed and pulled the scooter from his hands (while riding) threw it downstairs. While at the same time the dog jumps up pushes Max and he falls over?

jjenny
09-12-2011, 10:21 PM
I really fail to see how the scooter could have ended up on his shin in such a scenario.

Rhyme & Reason
09-12-2011, 10:35 PM
Here you go:



http://abcnews.go.com/US/spreckels-mansion-death-boy-max-schacknai-dies/story?id=14097880

This article is dated July 18. LEs theories and scenario have changed considerably since those early days.

sdcali
09-12-2011, 10:35 PM
Can you link me to the part that says from the second story bannister to the ground on the first floor? I've just posted a quote from the sheriff stating it was a fall from stairs, not from a bannister.

When I said the 2nd story bannister, I am referring to the top of the second story set of stairs as depicted in the LE Powerpoint. So, yes it was from the stairs and over the bannister at or near the top of the stairs.

Here is a link to that depiction (see page 9 and 10)

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/ms.pdf

SophieRose
09-12-2011, 10:36 PM
I agree with you. One of those girls know/knew what happened. I found her scooter statement kinda odd. She stated that Max was told not to ride the scooter upstairs, but she did see it up there a couple days ago.

I have a few theories, but lets say he was riding the scooter up there, and someone angry, grabbed and pulled the scooter from his hands (while riding) threw it downstairs. While at the same time the dog jumps up pushes Max and he falls over?
Wouldn't the scooter have sustained some sort of damage? And if you are hiding things from LE, why bother to tell them the last time you saw the scooter it was on the second floor.

scorekeeper
09-12-2011, 10:40 PM
This article is dated July 18. LEs theories and scenario have changed considerably since those early days.

R & R,

You are so right in your statement!!!! They sure have changed their theories since July 18th!!!

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

CDS22
09-12-2011, 11:37 PM
Wouldn't the scooter have sustained some sort of damage? And if you are hiding things from LE, why bother to tell them the last time you saw the scooter it was on the second floor.

Because perhaps (pure speculation on my part, of course) someone wanted to make it look like a scooter accident when it was something else. The scene that the authorities walked in on sounded awfully staged.

delaney
09-13-2011, 12:09 AM
why there was a dark liquid similar to charcoal
in his stomach? does this have anything to do with harvesting
organs or was his stomach pumped at some point? did it have
anything to do with the false/positive blood test?

thanks is advance!

justbetweenus
09-13-2011, 12:35 AM
Wouldn't the scooter have sustained some sort of damage? And if you are hiding things from LE, why bother to tell them the last time you saw the scooter it was on the second floor.

My thoughts are to further remove herself on knowing anything that happened, not seeing it for a couple days,which was upstairs, making it possible it was the cause? If he wasn't allowed to have it upstairs why didn't she bring it back down then. Both girls coincidentally in the washroom one up, one down....ok true it happens.

I don't really see a lot of damage happening to the scooter by being thrown downstairs, I'm sure it's not a cheapy. And when he falls part of his body hits it knocking it onto to his shin.

jjenny
09-13-2011, 12:46 AM
If scooter fell down first, then he would be on top of the scooter. Not the other way round. It's a carpeted surface. I fail to see how it would bounce onto his leg.

justbetweenus
09-13-2011, 12:57 AM
If scooter fell down first, then he would be on top of the scooter. Not the other way round. It's a carpeted surface. I fail to see how it would bounce onto his leg.

If part of his body hit say a handlebar not knock it over?

Plumeria5
09-13-2011, 01:05 AM
I know we are not allowed to say names of other minors involved but is it ok to suggest scenarios with a minor or to ask the age of another minor?

Plumeria5
09-13-2011, 01:22 AM
I know we are not allowed to say names of other minors involved but is it ok to suggest scenarios with a minor or to ask the age of another minor?


I have a feeling the answer is no so I won't go there. :innocent:

MyBelle
09-13-2011, 01:45 AM
If scooter fell down first, then he would be on top of the scooter. Not the other way round. It's a carpeted surface. I fail to see how it would bounce onto his leg.

When hit with force, the hit object should react. Carpeting had nothing to do with it, imo. Max's body may have struck the scooter when he hit the floor, creating movement of the scooter.

JMO

MyBelle
09-13-2011, 01:48 AM
My thoughts are to further remove herself on knowing anything that happened, not seeing it for a couple days,which was upstairs, making it possible it was the cause? If he wasn't allowed to have it upstairs why didn't she bring it back down then. Both girls coincidentally in the washroom one up, one down....ok true it happens.

I don't really see a lot of damage happening to the scooter by being thrown downstairs, I'm sure it's not a cheapy. And when he falls part of his body hits it knocking it onto to his shin.

I do wonder if the scooter had some type of motor. It would be difficult to use a scooter on carpet otherwise. As for why he had it in the house, that might be a decision of his dad that RN didn't support and was upset by it. It wouldn't be good for carpet.

JMO

revampz
09-13-2011, 01:57 AM
oh ok I didnt realise the hall was carpeted as well!! so ok we are to beleive that a six year old was hurtling so fast on a scooter on carpeted floor that he tripped and went over a bannister hitting a chandelier and bouncing onto the railing AND said scooter also happened to fly over the bannister and landed on his shin...

sorry I do not buy it and havent since I first read the story about rebecca being found hung after his death.

elfie
09-13-2011, 09:10 AM
oh ok I didnt realise the hall was carpeted as well!! so ok we are to beleive that a six year old was hurtling so fast on a scooter on carpeted floor that he tripped and went over a bannister hitting a chandelier and bouncing onto the railing AND said scooter also happened to fly over the bannister and landed on his shin...

sorry I do not buy it and havent since I first read the story about rebecca being found hung after his death.

IWannaKnow provided an excellent description of a possible scooter accident scenario from the 2nd floor hallway in the general threads #231, Thread 11:

I agree elfie. This is also how I see this happening. Perhaps the scooter is what took the chandelier down and not Max.

Thank you Quester for posting the hinky meter report re: handrail height and MS's ability (or not) to go over that railing.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

She effectively established that the handrail height is 32" or thereabouts. She also established that the step height is about 6 1/2". Perfect. Now, study this picture, which she linked to her report:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms03.jpg

Notice that the handrail on the second floor is the same height as the newel post. That establishes that the railing BEGINS at a height of 32". As the stairs go down, the handrail has to follow, which is why the handrail dips downward at the transition point behind the newel post by 6 1/2" - the height of the step. So immediately after the newel post on the second floor landing the handrail height is only 25.5" (approximately) from the second floor landing. The handrail is 32" on the second floor, 32" at the first stair, but only 25.5" from the second floor floor at the transitional dip you see in the handrail just behind the newel post. This is only a factor if you stand on the second floor and lean over the handrail at that exact point (and yes, it can be done). The Razor scooter would raise him up a few more inches even. I could see the post on the Razor working as a lever and the handrail as the pivot point, with MS's weight causing it to somersault over the railing with him. The scooter only weighs about 7 lbs.

http://www.target.com/p/Razor-Black-Label-Ultra-Pro-Lo-Kick-Scooter/-/A-13539774

So hinky meter established that Max's center of gravity would be at 28". Even without the scooter if he came off the second floor landing at exactly the wrong place, just after the newel post where the railing is only 25.5" in relation to the second floor, and he had any velocity behind him it shouldn't be that hard for him to do what the sheriff's office said. IMO. FWIW, they did talk about this in the briefing and stated that the railing was only 20 some odd inches at that point. I grew up in a house even older than this one and our stairs were similar. I was always conscious of that spot in the railing that wasn't really all that safe. Plus, we have redone the stairwell in our house and the discussion about handrails was eyeopening to me because of all the work we would have to do to work around the stair height. All of this is an attempt to say that the handrail is not 32" all the way down the stairwell. If he was against the railing on the second floor this couldn't have happened, if he were standing flat on the first stair facing the railing it couldn't have happened. He had to come off the second floor landing at an oblique angle to the stairs and gone over at that exact point with some velocity. IMO. Much like the descriptions.

Also if Ocean was what caused him to trip and fall he may have yelled the dog's name as he struck him and just before he went over the railing, and that could have been what Rebecca heard.

:( The scooter scenario includes, provides an answer for Rebecca's statement that he was not allowed to ride the scooter in the upstairs hallway as well as for the scooter to be found on top of his shin.

It's heartbreaking however Max's accident happened. :( My heart goes out to his family.

CDS22
09-13-2011, 09:18 AM
oh ok I didnt realise the hall was carpeted as well!! so ok we are to beleive that a six year old was hurtling so fast on a scooter on carpeted floor that he tripped and went over a bannister hitting a chandelier and bouncing onto the railing AND said scooter also happened to fly over the bannister and landed on his shin...

sorry I do not buy it and havent since I first read the story about rebecca being found hung after his death.

Yeah, it's not plausible at all, and now that we know the severity of Max's injuries (the fact that he couldn' breathe without resuscitation), we know that he couldn't talk, meaning that he couldn't have said "Ocean". Seems to me somebody intentionally was vague with the truth, outright lied, or was a very poor witness. Or perhaps that should read "someones".

CDS22
09-13-2011, 09:20 AM
IWannaKnow provided an excellent description of a possible scooter accident scenario from the 2nd floor hallway in the general threads #231, Thread 11:



:( The scooter scenario includes provides an answer for Rebecca's statement that he was not allowed to ride the scooter in the upstairs hallway as well as why for the scooter to be found on top of his shin.

It's heartbreaking however Max's accident happened. :( My heart goes out to his family.

I doubt JS would allow his son to do something unsafe. He was a good father by all accounts. And if we suppose that little Max was so misbehaved that he snuck a scooter into the home and hauled it all the way up the stairs, how in the world could he do that without RZ hearing him?

I'm sure the scene was staged and that the time it took to stage it was critical in getting the child oxygen, which he obviously didn't have.

elfie
09-13-2011, 09:31 AM
I doubt JS would allow his son to do something unsafe. He was a good father by all accounts. And if we suppose that little Max was so misbehaved that he snuck a scooter into the home and hauled it all the way up the stairs, how in the world could he do that without RZ hearing him?

I'm sure the scene was staged and that the time it took to stage it was critical in getting the child oxygen, which he obviously didn't have.

JS was not there at the time. The scooter was reported to have been last seen in the hallway.

Still, heartbreaking, so completely heartbreaking. :(

CDS22
09-13-2011, 09:44 AM
JS was not there at the time. The scooter was reported to have been last seen in the hallway.

Still, heartbreaking, so completely heartbreaking. :(

So if JS wasn't there and wouldn't allow the scooter, who did? And how could a scooter get in the house without someone hearing the clamor it would make?

elfie
09-13-2011, 09:53 AM
So if JS wasn't there and wouldn't allow the scooter, who did? And how could a scooter get in the house without someone hearing the clamor it would make?

What type of scooter are you imagining? Not at all a moped type deal--more like a two wheeled skateboard with a handlebar, from the information that has been given.

October
09-13-2011, 10:12 AM
Just throwing out some thoughts here-

I don't think we know what kind of scooter this was, do we? I would be willing to bet that it was a Razor scooter. My daughter is 5 1/2 and those are the scooters that are popular among her friends. They are very lightweight, only 6 lbs according to Amazon. That would not be enough to take down a chandelier, but it would be light enough to possibly get stuck in one.

What if someone was angry that the scooter was upstairs again and threw it downstairs, but got it caught in the chandelier instead? Maybe they couldn't get it down so they thought they would wait until they had help to do it. If Max was an adventurous child, he may have thought he could jump and knock it down. If he jumped and grabbed at the chandelier, that may have been enough to bring the chandelier, and the scooter, crashing down on him,

Anyone know if the physics would support this theory? A little boy who thought he could hang from a chandelier and then jump to another part of the stairs? This could explain why Rebecca would feel guilty, if she was responsible for getting the scooter up there and then leaving it, never imagining that Max would try to get it down himself when her back was turned.

jjenny
09-13-2011, 10:17 AM
There was a rumor earlier that Max got a ball stuck in the chandelier and was trying to reach it when he fell. As you recall the ball was also found next to Max.

elfie
09-13-2011, 10:20 AM
My sons have scooters and they can be awkward to carry as well as make noise from the wheels. I can't imagine RZ wouldn't hear the door open and close as the child carried in a scooter, if that is what happened, especially since the house had an alarm system and the door would beep with each opening. Even if the alarm was shut off, the door would still beep (not sound an alarm but merely beep). So I don't buy the scooter story. If someone ran out to the garage to bring in a scooter to stage something while a child was badly in need of oxygen and medical attention, that is deplorable.


I don't think anything could really help ease the pain and anguish of a family that has lost their youngest son under circumstances that have not been fully explained to their satisfaction, but demonstrating that it very well could have been an explainable horrendous accident, would be better than to be left with the overriding concern that it was an intentional act.

I don't know how distraught Rebecca was at the time, or if it prevented her from performing CPR continuously from the time that she found him, until the moment that she realized that EMS had arrived.

My objective here is to help find an explanation that fits the information that has been provided. The extent of his injuries certainly could have interfered with successful CPR since it took specific medical equipment and quite a bit of time for EMS to bring Max out of cardiac arrest.

I can only imagine the pain the family must be enduring, compounded by the sentiment that much more could have been done in those critical initial moments. I'm so sorry for the loss of Max. :( I send my prayers for their pain to be assuaged and my deepest condolences.

SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 10:47 AM
RZ allegedly worked in a laser surgery office and assisted during surgery. Wouldn't she have been trained in CPR if she assisted in surgeries?

We have no idea what Rebecca's job entailed, or if she assisted in surgery. Maybe she did more of the pre surgery eye drops, fitting contacts etc. I asked the people I know, who work in eye clinics, and made a trip to where I purchase my glasses. None of them are cpr certified. Zero.

Just as an afterthought. Wonder if that is where/how she met JS?

Thank you for the correction. I am new here and just getting familiar with the rules.

Here is my correction:

RZ did not do CPR on MS from the time they phoned from help until help arrived because the AR says they found her calling MS and not performing CPR. CPR was, however, performed by paramedics for 25-30 minutes:

.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

First off, re read the LE report, vs hinky meter. Secondly, I have stated this prior, that it took ems 25 minutes, with drugs and equipment to get Max's heart restarted. Even if Rebecca knew and performed PERFECT cpr, it would have been inadequate in this incident.

The LE report states Rebecca did perform cpr. My question, why didn't the LE officer help her? I can fully understand if she was doing cpr for her to stop and yell out Max's name. How scary/upsetting do you think this would have been for Rebecca?

Sorry, but until someone you know is in that situation, you can not say what you would do. Not unless you have been there and done that prior.


<MODSNIP>



Here you go:



http://abcnews.go.com/US/spreckels-mansion-death-boy-max-schacknai-dies/story?id=14097880

That says fall from the stairs, not fall down the stairs.

CDS22
09-13-2011, 10:54 AM
Here's another thing that's odd. Max appears to have face planted because it appears he didn't use his hands to protect his face, doesn't it? And wouldn't that mean he had to have been unconscious before he hit the floor? This is my opinion, of course, but something isn't right. Even if he fell from a railing onto the floor, the angle would not have been correct for hitting or grabbing the chandelier unless something or someone hurled him across. The railing was too high and the boy too short for any other explanation. This, of course, is my opinion.

CDS22
09-13-2011, 11:05 AM
There was a rumor earlier that Max got a ball stuck in the chandelier and was trying to reach it when he fell. As you recall the ball was also found next to Max.

A.) It would be impossible for a child that short with a railing that high to reach the chandelier, even if he stood on the railing.

B.) Let's supposed a ball did hit the chandelier. Wouldn't RZ surely have heard the clatter it would make.

C.) Why do the theories keep changing in this case? The Zahau family lawer said Max fell from "planking", even though there is no proof of that. We've also heard his last breath said "Ocean" even though he couldn't breathe with the kind of injuries he sustained.

CDS22
09-13-2011, 11:10 AM
Just throwing out some thoughts here-

I don't think we know what kind of scooter this was, do we? I would be willing to bet that it was a Razor scooter. My daughter is 5 1/2 and those are the scooters that are popular among her friends. They are very lightweight, only 6 lbs according to Amazon. That would not be enough to take down a chandelier, but it would be light enough to possibly get stuck in one.

What if someone was angry that the scooter was upstairs again and threw it downstairs, but got it caught in the chandelier instead? Maybe they couldn't get it down so they thought they would wait until they had help to do it. If Max was an adventurous child, he may have thought he could jump and knock it down. If he jumped and grabbed at the chandelier, that may have been enough to bring the chandelier, and the scooter, crashing down on him,

Anyone know if the physics would support this theory? A little boy who thought he could hang from a chandelier and then jump to another part of the stairs? This could explain why Rebecca would feel guilty, if she was responsible for getting the scooter up there and then leaving it, never imagining that Max would try to get it down himself when her back was turned.

I wonder how the chandelier was attached? Our chandliers (in every home I've lived in) have had to be bolted, and in fact, have been bolted in the attic in some instances. We can't remove them ourselves. We've had to hire someone to get it down (for cleaning or to change it). I can't imagine even a child of Max's weight bringing it down, or more importantly, how he'd get to it from the angle it was hanging.

oceanblueeyes
09-13-2011, 11:32 AM
There was a rumor earlier that Max got a ball stuck in the chandelier and was trying to reach it when he fell. As you recall the ball was also found next to Max.

Do we know how far out the chandelier hung from the banister railing? It doesn't seem right it would be right up close. Wouldn't it be centered more in the foyer area on the first floor?

IMO

oceanblueeyes
09-13-2011, 11:34 AM
I wonder how the chandelier was attached? Our chandeliers (in every home I've lived in) have had to be bolted, and in fact, have been bolted in the attic in some instances. We can't remove them ourselves. We've had to hire someone to get it down (for cleaning or to change it). I can't imagine even a child of Max's weight bringing it down, or more importantly, how he'd get to it from the angle it was hanging.

Ones that big are awfully heavy and I am sure it was braced and bolted into the ceiling connections and may have been braced to a overhead stud. The chain also would be a heavy guage since it has to support the weight of the chandelier.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 11:49 AM
Oh yes, we never saw the ceiling after the fall, correct? Was there a hole in the ceiling where the chandelier had broken through?

CDS22
09-13-2011, 12:13 PM
True, but the deaths together are what led to these discussions. Any links to whether or not LE did studies to determine how a chandelier could have falled from Max's weight? I haven't seen anything about that?

Not only can I not find proof of such a study (which is no way means it did not happen. They might be holding some information closely, or they might not), but it seems RZ's sister cleaned up the broken chandelier and was "injured" (according to what RZ told the dog person), then got a plane to go home.

I want to specify that I'd clean up broken glass in my home immediately, too. I just wonder if authorities took pictures of the area, or if they even thought to do it. I would think that they would and should, if they saw a child that severely injured and not breathing, but I've not heard that they did.

SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 12:37 PM
Not only can I not find proof of such a study (which is no way means it did not happen. They might be holding some information closely, or they might not), but it seems RZ's sister cleaned up the broken chandelier and was "injured" (according to what RZ told the dog person), then got a plane to go home.

I want to specify that I'd clean up broken glass in my home immediately, too. I just wonder if authorities took pictures of the area, or if they even thought to do it. I would think that they would and should, if they saw a child that severely injured and not breathing, but I've not heard that they did.

I would also clean up glass immediately and the pictures/lack or pictures, is why I question the thoroughness of the investigations.

Plumeria5
09-13-2011, 07:07 PM
I've been looking at the photo of the staircase trying to imagine scenarios of what happened to Max. It is very plausible that Max somehow got the ball caught on the chandelier and he was trying to get it down. I believe there were 2 balls beside Max after his fall. If that is correct he might have used another ball to try to hit it and make the other one come loose. Perhaps that didn't work so he used something else to try to get a hold of the chandelier and pull it closer to him. The scooter? May be far fetched but lets say he tried to use the handle of the scooter, got it caught on the chandelier, and so tried to climb up on the rail. When he fell his weight, plus the scooter hooked onto the fixture, caused it to fall with the scooter. I agree that although there are codes for installing fixtures often they are not up to code and shortcuts are taken.

Morag
09-14-2011, 11:56 AM
911 was called at 1010am and apparently LE arrived at 1012- not unusual, considering the size of Coronado. And Max was taken to the local hospital by 1035- it's only a couple of minutes from their home. JS has been said to have met them there, and at some point it was said that he had been at the gym (I'm pretty sure I would never find that, so can't provide a link at this time).

Apparently they used the gym at the Del- practically next door-as well as Hollywood Fitness, which is also quite close. If that's where JS was, why didn't he meet up with the others at home while Max was being 'worked on'?

Of course, he may not have been at the gym, or he may have been at another one farther away. But if that's where he was, why did it take him so long to get to his child? I'm not criticizing him, just wondering where he was.

tiredblondy
09-14-2011, 07:06 PM
Here's another thing that's odd. Max appears to have face planted because it appears he didn't use his hands to protect his face, doesn't it? And wouldn't that mean he had to have been unconscious before he hit the floor? This is my opinion, of course, but something isn't right. Even if he fell from a railing onto the floor, the angle would not have been correct for hitting or grabbing the chandelier unless something or someone hurled him across. The railing was too high and the boy too short for any other explanation. This, of course, is my opinion.

Not if he was using the scooter while stretching and leaning precariously over the railing to knock the ball out of the chandelier and the dog jumped on him causing him to lose his balance.

SophieRose
09-14-2011, 07:30 PM
Not if he was using the scooter while stretching and leaning precariously over the railing to knock the ball out of the chandelier and the dog jumped on him causing him to lose his balance.
So the dog also knocked the scooter over the banister?

katydid23
09-14-2011, 07:59 PM
I've been looking at the photo of the staircase trying to imagine scenarios of what happened to Max. It is very plausible that Max somehow got the ball caught on the chandelier and he was trying to get it down. I believe there were 2 balls beside Max after his fall. If that is correct he might have used another ball to try to hit it and make the other one come loose. Perhaps that didn't work so he used something else to try to get a hold of the chandelier and pull it closer to him. The scooter? May be far fetched but lets say he tried to use the handle of the scooter, got it caught on the chandelier, and so tried to climb up on the rail. When he fell his weight, plus the scooter hooked onto the fixture, caused it to fall with the scooter. I agree that although there are codes for installing fixtures often they are not up to code and shortcuts are taken.

That sounds plausible. But if it did happen in some similar manner, then i can easily see why RN tried to distance herself from the accident.

If it did happen like that, then RN was extremely negligent. She should have known if the boy got his ball stuck on the chandelier. She should not have been in the bathroom for 20 minutes, thinking he was still sitting in the kitchen, if he was upstairs trying to get a soccer ball down from the chandelier. IMO, that is highly irresponsible on her part.

CDS22
09-14-2011, 08:08 PM
Not if he was using the scooter while stretching and leaning precariously over the railing to knock the ball out of the chandelier and the dog jumped on him causing him to lose his balance.

He still couldn't have reached the chandelier, even if he stood on the scooter, climbed on the railing, and leaned over.

IMO

CDS22
09-14-2011, 08:11 PM
That sounds plausible. But if it did happen in some similar manner, then i can easily see why RN tried to distance herself from the accident.

If it did happen like that, then RN was extremely negligent. She should have known if the boy got his ball stuck on the chandelier. She should not have been in the bathroom for 20 minutes, thinking he was still sitting in the kitchen, if he was upstairs trying to get a soccer ball down from the chandelier. IMO, that is highly irresponsible on her part.

Did you see the version of Max's injury according to one of RZ's sisters? It now has MS playing in the hallway instead of on the stairs.

“She did not feel responsible. She said it was a horrible accident. She said she doesn’t know for sure what happened. She just remembered that he was playing in the hallway, and she told me that she was in the bathroom, and she heard this loud crash. And so she came out running, and she said she found Max on the floor, unconscious.”

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2011/sep/14/citylights2-rebecca-zahau/

deanna82437
09-14-2011, 08:20 PM
Did you see the version of Max's injury according to one of RZ's sisters? It now has MS playing in the hallway instead of on the stairs.



http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2011/sep/14/citylights2-rebecca-zahau/

That was a very nice article about the family. Thanks for posting the link again.

CDS22
09-14-2011, 08:24 PM
That was a very nice article about the family. Thanks for posting the link again.

You're very welcome. The contradictons in it were interesting. I think the more they talk, the more interesting the case becomes.

Plumeria5
09-14-2011, 09:00 PM
That sounds plausible. But if it did happen in some similar manner, then i can easily see why RN tried to distance herself from the accident.

If it did happen like that, then RN was extremely negligent. She should have known if the boy got his ball stuck on the chandelier. She should not have been in the bathroom for 20 minutes, thinking he was still sitting in the kitchen, if he was upstairs trying to get a soccer ball down from the chandelier. IMO, that is highly irresponsible on her part.

That's true. Max may have asked for help but RN could have been upset with him for playing ball in the house, refused to help him and then the tragedy happened.

katydid23
09-14-2011, 09:05 PM
It concerns me that there have been three different versions of what RN said about where Max was when she was in the bathroom. The Z family attorney said publicly that it was a planking accident, which would imply he was upstairs and fell from the balcony.

Then the ME report had said she told LE that Max was in the kitchen last she had seen him.

And now Mary said that RN said Max was playing in the hallway. HHMMMMMMM....bothersome, imo.

CDS22
09-14-2011, 09:23 PM
It concerns me that there have been three different versions of what RN said about where Max was when she was in the bathroom. The Z family attorney said publicly that it was a planking accident, which would imply he was upstairs and fell from the balcony.

Then the ME report had said she told LE that Max was in the kitchen last she had seen him.

And now Mary said that RN said Max was playing in the hallway. HHMMMMMMM....bothersome, imo.

Exactly. Wonder where the lawyer pulled the planking story from if we're to believe no one witnessed Max's fall or whatever it was. I hope the authorities questioned the 13 year old thoroughly.

The story has also changed as far as how often RZ was at the hospital. There are other discrepancies but they are not related directly to Max's death so I won't list them here.

IMO

SophieRose
09-14-2011, 09:50 PM
That's true. Max may have asked for help but RN could have been upset with him for playing ball in the house, refused to help him and then the tragedy happened.
Or said to him that she needed to use the bathroom first and then would help him, and then spent a longer time in the restroom than she thought she would.

CDS22
09-14-2011, 09:54 PM
Or said to him that she needed to use the bathroom first and then would help him, and then spent a longer time in the restroom than she thought she would.

Except that if that happened, wouldn't she admit it to the police when questioned about Max's injuries?

SophieRose
09-14-2011, 10:00 PM
A.) It would be impossible for a child that short with a railing that high to reach the chandelier, even if he stood on the railing.
For the chandelier to swing like it did, from the center to the inside right of the stairwell, there had to be a lot of momentum. I think that's why LE thought MS was running from the upstairs hallway. There was glass found on the right side landing so it swung quite a ways before coming down.

arielilane
09-14-2011, 10:08 PM
We have no idea what Rebecca's job entailed, or if she assisted in surgery. Maybe she did more of the pre surgery eye drops, fitting contacts etc. I asked the people I know, who work in eye clinics, and made a trip to where I purchase my glasses. None of them are cpr certified. Zero.

Thank you, SunnieRN, for staying on top of this case and always doing your homework. Your posts are a must read, innovative and informative. Thank you for all that you do. http://www.wuerziworld.de/Smilies/nt/nt24.gif

curiousjo
09-14-2011, 10:32 PM
I think RN told LE, she last SAW MS in the kitchen eating breakfast. After she went to the bathroom, he went upstairs,...and she may have last HEARD him running in the upstairs hallway before he fell. Seeing and hearing are 2 different things and could explain the discrepansy. It does not imply malice intent. MS was not a toddler, he was about to start 1st grade. I used to walk several blocks to school alone at that age, walked down the hall at school to the bathroom alone. The tox study was FALSE positve for benzos. I have not heard any info to suggest anything beyond a freak accident. Is there anything factual to base your suspicion?

In regards to planking-- never heard of it till this Summer when a friend posted a "plank the tank" shot. I really didn't get it at first. After this case, I asked my teen neice if she knew what planking was... and she said that some of the teens in her class were taking planking photos. Consequently, MS may have seen his teen siblings planking on the staircase, and tried to do it himself. The ball stuck on chandelier is a thought, but why would it get stuck and not roll off - and if he had a second ball then why try to get the stuck ball down... LE demo of MS running towards stairs is possible, if he tripped over dog on top of landing as he rounded the corner to go down the stairs. In the end, if it was ball stuck on chandelier or he was goofing around on the stairs for a bit, then RN may have felt grief over taking too long in bathroom and committed suicide. However, it does not make her negligent or a viscious criminal, and the two deaths are a grave trajedy.

Peaceful
09-14-2011, 10:33 PM
I doubt JS would allow his son to do something unsafe. He was a good father by all accounts. And if we suppose that little Max was so misbehaved that he snuck a scooter into the home and hauled it all the way up the stairs, how in the world could he do that without RZ hearing him?

I'm sure the scene was staged and that the time it took to stage it was critical in getting the child oxygen, which he obviously didn't have.

I am just wondering what has you "sure" about all of this? I would love to understand better where your line of thought stems from, if you please.

justice be served
09-14-2011, 10:48 PM
IMO the S family is not going to publicly dispute Max's death as an accident. They likely will keep their doubts or beliefs about it private. If they were to contend that his death was one of the Z family's fault, then the public would squarely believe that Rebecca's death was a revenge murder. I see them being quiet at all costs on opinions about Max's death. Probably a good call and one of the only good pieces of advice from their many advisors.

Peaceful
09-14-2011, 10:57 PM
This is a MUST read for this topic.

Accident? Hopefully. San Diego Sheriff's stupid? Definitely. IMO

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

Morag
09-14-2011, 11:04 PM
Could there have been some swinging on the chandelier play at one time or another? I think such a thing has been shown in a childrens movie, and probably in cartoons. The chandelier could have loosened. Maybe it fell on Max, rather than the other way around.

jjenny
09-14-2011, 11:23 PM
Could there have been some swinging on the chandelier play at one time or another? I think such a thing has been shown in a childrens movie, and probably in cartoons. The chandelier could have loosened. Maybe it fell on Max, rather than the other way around.

I just saw it in a children's series the other day. They had 3 people swinging on chandelier.

Morag
09-14-2011, 11:35 PM
I just saw it in a children's series the other day. They had 3 people swinging on chandelier.

Google 'chandelier falls.' It happens. Cleveland courthouse, Jefferson City Mo, capitol, SC state building, Harvard Library. Disneyland (or world) Toontown....

CocoChanel
09-15-2011, 12:02 AM
...... In the end, if it was ball stuck on chandelier or he was goofing around on the stairs for a bit, then RN may have felt grief over taking too long in bathroom and committed suicide. However, it does not make her negligent or a viscious criminal, and the two deaths are a grave trajedy.

VERY respectfully snipped by me.

THANK YOU for voicing my thoughts Jo. Both deaths are unimaginable tragedies. A 6-year-old child died in an unnatural way. NO ONE IS FORGETTING THAT. We do not understand how it could have happened. That is frightening and cuts to the core of what we believe to be the safety that should be in any child's home. And still, tragic accidents happen every day. There is not always someone to blame. It seems to be an expectation of our times that nothing bad should EVER happen, and when it does, someone must be at fault. I am troubled by the need to condemn a dead person for this horrible accident. I have actually started to believe that RZ could very well have killed herself in agony that this horrible accident happened on her watch. But I cannot see the point in villifying her, especially if she has already paid the ultimate price.

Brit
09-15-2011, 12:08 AM
If you didn't want a child to play with a scooter indoors, wouldn't you put it in the garage? A door from the inside opening to the garage should be set to the alarm to beep, even if the alarm is off. At least, better alarm systems do that. I assume a multi-millionaire's home would be equipped with such.

If someone let Max play with a scooter indoors, he/she's negligent. If someone didn't keep Max from getting a scooter indoors, he/she is negligent.

IMO

How do any of us know for sure that he was playing with a scooter?

jjenny
09-15-2011, 02:47 AM
How do any of us know for sure that he was playing with a scooter?

No we don't know anything for sure. I, for one, can't figure out how the scooter got across his shin.

thinkingstraight
09-15-2011, 10:45 AM
Isn't this the thread to discuss max's death?
I'm not going over to the "case for murder " thread and disputing your hurling accusations at the Shacknai family as murderers. We need to get to the bottom of max accident. That includes making sense of R's account of how it happened. Ignore if you must but there ARE discrepancies. His death seems more mysterious than RNs. And as a mother, I feel compelled to investigate this. In fact, it might even make your case for murder more logical so why dispute our investigation into max's death?

CDS22
09-15-2011, 11:01 AM
VERY respectfully snipped by me.

THANK YOU for voicing my thoughts Jo. Both deaths are unimaginable tragedies. A 6-year-old child died in an unnatural way. NO ONE IS FORGETTING THAT. We do not understand how it could have happened. That is frightening and cuts to the core of what we believe to be the safety that should be in any child's home. And still, tragic accidents happen every day. There is not always someone to blame. It seems to be an expectation of our times that nothing bad should EVER happen, and when it does, someone must be at fault. I am troubled by the need to condemn a dead person for this horrible accident. I have actually started to believe that RZ could very well have killed herself in agony that this horrible accident happened on her watch. But I cannot see the point in villifying her, especially if she has already paid the ultimate price.

I don't see how it villifies RZ to say that the accident report doesn't make sense. We're talking science and logic here, not vilification.

Max doesn't have a voice now. Someone needs to get to the bottom of what happened. Did an intruder break in and harm the child? Is it possible more people were in the house than the 3 reported? Why was there a scooter across the child's shin? Why were there traces of a sedative in his blood?

These are all important questions that need to be answered.

IMO

CDS22
09-15-2011, 11:03 AM
How do any of us know for sure that he was playing with a scooter?

We don't. We just know that one was placed strategically across his leg. So strange, isn't it?

IMO

CDS22
09-15-2011, 11:16 AM
911 was called at 1010am and apparently LE arrived at 1012- not unusual, considering the size of Coronado. And Max was taken to the local hospital by 1035- it's only a couple of minutes from their home. JS has been said to have met them there, and at some point it was said that he had been at the gym (I'm pretty sure I would never find that, so can't provide a link at this time).

Apparently they used the gym at the Del- practically next door-as well as Hollywood Fitness, which is also quite close. If that's where JS was, why didn't he meet up with the others at home while Max was being 'worked on'?

Of course, he may not have been at the gym, or he may have been at another one farther away. But if that's where he was, why did it take him so long to get to his child? I'm not criticizing him, just wondering where he was.

Someone might have failed to call him until the were on the way to the hospital, in which case it would make no sense to go home first. I almost wish that he did, though, so someone who cares about Max could have seen how he was laying, where the chandelier pieces were, etc.

justice be served
09-15-2011, 11:47 AM
We don't. We just know that one was placed strategically across his leg. So strange, isn't it?

IMO

BBM
Did I miss something? Could you please provide the link that 'the scooter was placed strategically across his leg'? I have not been on the forum much. Thank you.

IWannaKnow
09-15-2011, 11:53 AM
This picture, originally posted by SDSD here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms02.jpg
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/lookinforclues/chandelier.jpg
Clearly shows that the chandelier hangs much lower than the second floor landing. If Max went off the stairway anywhere above the third or fourth stair down from the second floor, it shouldn't be that hard for an athletic child who loved to play soccer to land on that chandelier. It is LARGE and takes up a good deal of the space in the U of the stairwell where Max fell. We are not talking about the puny light fixtures in my house, this thing is BIG and hangs much lower than perhaps is being taken into account. If he went off anywhere near where LE says he did (and if we are not going to believe that, why accept a single thing they said about either death???) I have no trouble seeing how he could have impacted with the chandelier and if the scooter was involved, it is even easier to see, in my very humble opinion.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 11:58 AM
BBM
Did I miss something? Could you please provide the link that 'the scooter was placed strategically across his leg'? I have not been on the forum much. Thank you.

The AR states that the scooter was found across his leg. The "strategically placed" is my opinion, hence the IMO at the end of my post.

MyBelle
09-15-2011, 12:30 PM
How do any of us know for sure that he was playing with a scooter?

All we know for certain is that a scooter was on top of his shin when LE arrived and that RN told LE that he had been told previously to not play with it.

JMO

thinkingstraight
09-15-2011, 01:53 PM
I don't see how it villifies RZ to say that the accident report doesn't make sense. We're talking science and logic here, not vilification.

Max doesn't have a voice now. Someone needs to get to the bottom of what happened. Did an intruder break in and harm the child? Is it possible more people were in the house than the 3 reported? Why was there a scooter across the child's shin? Why were there traces of a sedative in his blood?

These are all important questions that need to be answered.

IMO

And don't forget his ability to speak while unconscious. And he was able to squeak out the name of the "culprit" no less.
Look I'm not saying she deliberately did anything to the little boy, that would take a monster. It was probably an accident, but in my opinion, she was guilty of a little too much covering her own @ss. Which makes me suspicious of the whole event.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 01:59 PM
And don't forget his ability to speak while unconscious. And he was able to squeak out the name of the "culprit" no less.
Look I'm not saying she deliberately did anything to the little boy, that would take a monster. It was probably an accident, but in my opinion, she was guilty of a little too much covering her own @ss. Which makes me suspicious of the whole event.

Agreed. Did the police even thoroughly question the 13 year old, and why was she whisked off so quickly out of state? I just hope they questioned and everyone thoroughly because they might have been able to glean something important.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 02:06 PM
And don't forget his ability to speak while unconscious. And he was able to squeak out the name of the "culprit" no less.
Look I'm not saying she deliberately did anything to the little boy, that would take a monster. It was probably an accident, but in my opinion, she was guilty of a little too much covering her own @ss. Which makes me suspicious of the whole event.

Another thought: He had no pulse and wasn't breathing when the police got there. Wonder if someone was surprised when they were able to get his heart started again?

IMO

MyBelle
09-15-2011, 02:24 PM
Another thought: He had no pulse and wasn't breathing when the police got there. Wonder if someone was surprised when they were able to get his heart started again?

IMO

The big question I still have is why RN wasn't giving him CPR when LE arrived yet she told the cop she had performed rescue breathing prior to his arrival. There is no reasonable explanation for why she stopped doing the breathing.

JMO

CDS22
09-15-2011, 02:30 PM
The big question I still have is why RN wasn't giving him CPR when LE arrived yet she told the cop she had performed rescue breathing prior to his arrival. There is no reasonable explanation for why she stopped doing the breathing.

JMO

The report says she told the police she gave Max a "few rescue breaths". "A few" doesn't sound too enthusiastic, does it?

vulture
09-15-2011, 02:51 PM
"The only way for the scooter to go from the second floor to the bottom of the stairwell is if someone tossed the scooter over the railing, it caught the chandelier and Max tried to intervene."

I don't know if that's the only way it could have happened but it would explain a lot of things if it did happen this way.

vulture
09-15-2011, 03:12 PM
The big question I still have is why RN wasn't giving him CPR when LE arrived yet she told the cop she had performed rescue breathing prior to his arrival. There is no reasonable explanation for why she stopped doing the breathing.

JMO

Maybe she started but gave up thinking it wasn't working. But it sure would help to know more about this part of it!

CDS22
09-15-2011, 03:20 PM
He had to have face planted because his main injuries were on his face and head. Since he didn't use his hands to protect himself, one can only wonder if he were already unconscious before hitting the ground. The smack on the front of the head was so hard, it stretched his spinal cord, which is an extreme case of whiplash. Yet the child was found on his back, not receiving CPR, and with a scooter on top of the lower left of his right shin. Lots of bizarre things going on here.

IMO

CalElliot
09-15-2011, 03:29 PM
I'm curious as to who called a chandelier place to get the chandelier all tidy...whose idea it was to get it instantly repaired and rehung...while Max was on life support at the hospital?

What repair place was it? Did LE talk with the staff there? Why all the dialog with the dog kennel owners and not the chandelier repair?

Also, how many feet would Max have had to have flown to land on the chandelier?

SophieRose
09-15-2011, 04:24 PM
I'm curious as to who called a chandelier place to get the chandelier all tidy...whose idea it was to get it instantly repaired and rehung...while Max was on life support at the hospital?

What repair place was it? Did LE talk with the staff there? Why all the dialog with the dog kennel owners and not the chandelier repair?

Also, how many feet would Max have had to have flown to land on the chandelier?
The picture of the chandelier is not recent, it was taken years ago.

SophieRose
09-15-2011, 04:25 PM
This is such a good point I wanted to bump it, and think about it some more. It is true that if Rebecca was believed to be culpable somehow Max's death, from either her inadequate supervision of him or by some more direct method, a motive for her murder suddenly comes crystal clear, whereas if Max's death was simply a tragic accident, with nobody to blame, then who would want Rebecca dead?

Interesting, indeed.
It also should become more clear why she would commit suicide.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 04:31 PM
It also should become more clear why she would commit suicide.

Indeed, if she feared jail or the loss of the multi-million dollar lifestyle she'd become accustomed to. Because according to her sister, she didn't feel badly at all about MS's death. She was able to shop and have dinner and thought it was just an "accident".

CalElliot
09-15-2011, 04:53 PM
The picture of the chandelier is not recent, it was taken years ago.

It was already back up when LE were there with search warrant.

jjenny
09-15-2011, 05:02 PM
Jail? Nonsense. Police believed it to be nothing more than an accident. After investigating it, they still declared it a tragic accident. Nobody was going to go to jail for it.

SophieRose
09-15-2011, 05:18 PM
It was already back up when LE were there with search warrant.
MS autopsy report states it was on the floor.

deanna82437
09-15-2011, 05:28 PM
MS autopsy report states it was on the floor.

The autopsy states it (the chandelier) was on the floor next to MS on 7/11 the day of his accident. IIRC the search warrants were not issued until following RZ's event. Anyone know?

SunnieRN
09-15-2011, 06:00 PM
Police never said the clothes belong to the sister, only that they determined the clothes didn't belong to RN, but to a female guest who stayed in the guest house earlier. The article is speculating that they could have belonged to the sister because she stayed with RN earlier, but it's a complete speculation and frankly why would RN put her teenage sister in the guest house when the mansion had guest rooms? Also why did they put the brother into messy guest house with clothing on the floor from some earlier guest?

"We determined that that clothing was not from Rebecca," Lt. Nesbit said. "The clothing was left by a female guest who stayed in the guest house earlier, prior to the (hanging) incident."
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death

Thank you for clarifying that it did not say it was XZ. I had a feeling that if it HAD, that would have been headline news!!:seeya:

Brit
09-15-2011, 06:08 PM
Thank you for clarifying that it did not say it was XZ. I had a feeling that if it HAD, that would have been headline news!!:seeya:


This is interesting. I remember when this first happened reading somewhere that ds was staying at the house for some reason??? Am I remembering correctly? Does anyone else remember reading this? I dont have time to look up the links so I apologize if I am incorrect.

SophieRose
09-15-2011, 06:08 PM
Police never said the clothes belong to the sister, only that they determined the clothes didn't belong to RN, but to a female guest who stayed in the guest house earlier. The article is speculating that they could have belonged to the sister because she stayed with RN earlier, but it's a complete speculation and frankly why would RN put her teenage sister in the guest house when the mansion had guest rooms? Also why did they put the brother into messy guest house with clothing on the floor from some earlier guest?

"We determined that that clothing was not from Rebecca," Lt. Nesbit said. "The clothing was left by a female guest who stayed in the guest house earlier, prior to the (hanging) incident."
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death
The dog guy said there were two women at the house when he came to talk about boarding the dog. Most of us could not figure out who the second woman was and thought it might have mistook XZ as a woman. Perhaps RN had another friend stay over the first night and she left her things planning to return another day.
IMO

deanna82437
09-15-2011, 06:14 PM
The dog guy said there were two women at the house when he came to talk about boarding the dog. Most of us could not figure out who the second woman was and thought it might have mistook XZ as a woman. Perhaps RN had another friend stay over the first night and she left her things planning to return another day.
IMO

That has been a question that has been brought up some time ago. No one has come up with an answer that I'm aware of. Seems old theories/news just keep getting repeated.

This is OT however. Thread is about MS's death.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 06:31 PM
Police never said the clothes belong to the sister, only that they determined the clothes didn't belong to RN, but to a female guest who stayed in the guest house earlier. The article is speculating that they could have belonged to the sister because she stayed with RN earlier, but it's a complete speculation and frankly why would RN put her teenage sister in the guest house when the mansion had guest rooms? Also why did they put the brother into messy guest house with clothing on the floor from some earlier guest?

"We determined that that clothing was not from Rebecca," Lt. Nesbit said. "The clothing was left by a female guest who stayed in the guest house earlier, prior to the (hanging) incident."
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death

She stayed in the second bedroom, not the same bedroom AS stayed in.

jjenny
09-15-2011, 06:33 PM
She stayed in the second bedroom, not the same bedroom AS stayed in.

Who stayed in the second bedroom?

CDS22
09-15-2011, 06:33 PM
The dog guy said there were two women at the house when he came to talk about boarding the dog. Most of us could not figure out who the second woman was and thought it might have mistook XZ as a woman. Perhaps RN had another friend stay over the first night and she left her things planning to return another day.
IMO

If XZ was wearing a lot of make up, she might have looked older than 13.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 06:34 PM
Who stayed in the second bedroom?

Whoever the female guest was.

jjenny
09-15-2011, 06:34 PM
Whoever the female guest was.

And how do you know female guest stayed in the second bedroom? As I recall the report only described one unmade bed.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 06:38 PM
And how do you know female guest stayed in the second bedroom? As I recall the report only described one unmade bed.

According to Zahau's autopsy report, "The guest house consisted of two bedrooms. One of the rooms had a suitcase and the other room had an unmade bed, a few pieces of women's clothing on the floor, make up wipes on the dresser and a glass with clear liquid on the night stand."

From the article you posted.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 06:39 PM
Jail? Nonsense. Police believed it to be nothing more than an accident. After investigating it, they still declared it a tragic accident. Nobody was going to go to jail for it.

If someone was alive to question, that might have changed. Also, RZ did not know what the outcome would be.

IMO

deanna82437
09-15-2011, 06:41 PM
Whoever the female guest was.

Do you have a link as to who that guest was?

jjenny
09-15-2011, 06:43 PM
Ac

From the article you posted.

And? Only the room with the clothing had an unmade bed.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 06:43 PM
This picture, originally posted by SDSD here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms02.jpg
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/lookinforclues/chandelier.jpg
Clearly shows that the chandelier hangs much lower than the second floor landing. If Max went off the stairway anywhere above the third or fourth stair down from the second floor, it shouldn't be that hard for an athletic child who loved to play soccer to land on that chandelier. It is LARGE and takes up a good deal of the space in the U of the stairwell where Max fell. We are not talking about the puny light fixtures in my house, this thing is BIG and hangs much lower than perhaps is being taken into account. If he went off anywhere near where LE says he did (and if we are not going to believe that, why accept a single thing they said about either death???) I have no trouble seeing how he could have impacted with the chandelier and if the scooter was involved, it is even easier to see, in my very humble opinion.

That picture makes it harder for me to understand how he could have landed on his face, but have injuries on his back, and bring the chandelier down. He was a little 6 year old boy, not a gymnast.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 06:46 PM
And? Only the room with the clothing had an unmade bed.

An unmade bed is insignificant. It could be that AS made his bed prior to leaving the guest house, or it could be that the female guest left her room a mess.

IMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-15-2011, 07:24 PM
It was already back up when LE were there with search warrant.

Huh? The old pictures show it up and the LE pictures show no chandelier at all. Is there a link to where it says it was back up by Wednesday?

Rhyme & Reason
09-15-2011, 07:31 PM
She stayed in the second bedroom, not the same bedroom AS stayed in.

And you know this as a fact how?

SophieRose
09-15-2011, 07:36 PM
And you know this as a fact how?
Suitcase was on bed in one room and female clothes were in the other. Assume suitcase belonged to AS. He had just arrived the night before and may not have had time to unpack.
IMO

jjenny
09-15-2011, 07:38 PM
Suitcase was on bed in one room and female clothes were in the other. Assume suitcase belonged to AS. He had just arrived the night before and may not have had time to unpack.
IMO

Suitcase wasn't on the bed.

SophieRose
09-15-2011, 07:42 PM
Suitcase wasn't on the bed.
Sorry about that. But I made assumption it may have been AS since he may not have had time to unpack the night before. Why is guesthouse important?

CalElliot
09-15-2011, 07:46 PM
Chandelier was back up when second search warrant was served and LE in house revisiting chandelier, staircase, et al. I will find link.

Rhyme & Reason
09-15-2011, 07:50 PM
Chandelier was back up when second search warrant was served and LE in house revisiting chandelier, staircase, et al. I will find link.

Ok thanks for looking for a link. If true that it was back up, maybe it was the only lighting in the foyer?

imamaze
09-15-2011, 09:16 PM
Ok... It's fine to discuss and disagree, please do this without attacking. If you see a problem with a post either attacking or being off topic then please alert, do not get the thread off topic by complaining on the board. Thank you.

Ima

SophieRose
09-15-2011, 09:26 PM
Ok thanks for looking for a link. If true that it was back up, maybe it was the only lighting in the foyer?

Picture of the foyer when it was up for sale in 2006. Don't know if it was still the same 07/11.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.luxist.com/media/2006/02/coronado3.jpg

JBean
09-15-2011, 10:18 PM
well that was an interesting read.
personal attacks,spamming the same comments over and over,being snide,and talking about other members as if no one knows who you are talking about doesn't fly here.

If you have had a post(or 3) removed from this thread, you either posted something along those lines, quoted a post that was along those lines,or messed up the quotes so bad that it was impossible to tell who said what to whom.

There was already at least one warning in this thread. Please don't expect a pm from a moderator as to why your post was removed.

Thanks all.

ETA: bashing RZN is not tolerated at this time. Unless another moderator adjusted that rule it is still in place.

Rhyme & Reason
09-15-2011, 10:25 PM
Picture of the foyer when it was up for sale in 2006. Don't know if it was still the same 07/11.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.luxist.com/media/2006/02/coronado3.jpg

Thank you. I see some track lighting up there, but we have no idea if that's still there or not. Wish we could find a current picture from that same angle.

CDS22
09-15-2011, 10:31 PM
Could there have been some swinging on the chandelier play at one time or another? I think such a thing has been shown in a childrens movie, and probably in cartoons. The chandelier could have loosened. Maybe it fell on Max, rather than the other way around.

Are you surmising that he could have fallen down the stairs, and then something caused an already weakened chandelier to fall on him?

SophieRose
09-15-2011, 10:32 PM
Chandelier was back up when second search warrant was served and LE in house revisiting chandelier, staircase, et al. I will find link.
I think what was in those search warrants was speculation. The news media is now going to court to get access to them.

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death

Attorneys for News 8 and several other media outlets will go to court in the coming weeks to ask a judge to unseal search warrants and affidavits in the case that should contain unreleased information from the investigation.

Rhyme & Reason
09-15-2011, 10:37 PM
I think what was in those search warrants was speculation. The news media is now going to court to get access to them.

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death

Attorneys for News 8 and several other media outlets will go to court in the coming weeks to ask a judge to unseal search warrants and affidavits in the case that should contain unreleased information from the investigation.

That would be great if they get the SW & affidavits released. They may answer many of our questions.

katydid23
09-15-2011, 10:54 PM
I think RN told LE, she last SAW MS in the kitchen eating breakfast. After she went to the bathroom, he went upstairs,...and she may have last HEARD him running in the upstairs hallway before he fell. Seeing and hearing are 2 different things and could explain the discrepansy. It does not imply malice intent. MS was not a toddler, he was about to start 1st grade. I used to walk several blocks to school alone at that age, walked down the hall at school to the bathroom alone. The tox study was FALSE positve for benzos. I have not heard any info to suggest anything beyond a freak accident. Is there anything factual to base your suspicion?

In regards to planking-- never heard of it till this Summer when a friend posted a "plank the tank" shot. I really didn't get it at first. After this case, I asked my teen neice if she knew what planking was... and she said that some of the teens in her class were taking planking photos. Consequently, MS may have seen his teen siblings planking on the staircase, and tried to do it himself. The ball stuck on chandelier is a thought, but why would it get stuck and not roll off - and if he had a second ball then why try to get the stuck ball down... LE demo of MS running towards stairs is possible, if he tripped over dog on top of landing as he rounded the corner to go down the stairs. In the end, if it was ball stuck on chandelier or he was goofing around on the stairs for a bit, then RN may have felt grief over taking too long in bathroom and committed suicide. However, it does not make her negligent or a viscious criminal, and the two deaths are a grave trajedy.

My main concern is why would RN tell the ME one thing, that Max was last seen in the kitchen, and then tell her sisters other details, like he was last known to be playing in the hallway? If you're explanation is correct, then she should have shared that with the authorities, and not just said " he was in the kitchen last I knew.'

And if she did hear him playing in the upstairs hallway then imo, she should have left the bathroom, and gone and checked on him, and asked him not to run in the upstairs stairway area. imoo

In many ways a 6 yr old needs more supervision than a toddler. And I never said she was a vicious criminal, just that she was not a very good babysitter,imo. She should not have been in the bathroom for up to 20 minutes while she could hear Max running around in the upstairs hallway, unsupervised. That is not 'trashing' her, just stating my opinion. And the reason it is important is because I see it as a valid motivation for either her murder or her suicide.

tiredblondy
09-15-2011, 11:04 PM
Are you surmising that he could have fallen down the stairs, and then something caused an already weakened chandelier to fall on him?

I didn't know the chandelier fell on him. I knew it was beside him on the floor. Where is the link for that?

Also I've been wondering if it was part of the chandelier that fell?

SophieRose
09-15-2011, 11:19 PM
I didn't know the chandelier fell on him. I knew it was beside him on the floor. Where is the link for that?

Also I've been wondering if it was part of the chandelier that fell?

The SD Sheriff's diagram shows the entire chandelier coming down. It hit the right side of the first landing because there were pieces of glass from it found there.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms01.jpg

Morag
09-16-2011, 12:00 AM
I didn't know the chandelier fell on him. I knew it was beside him on the floor. Where is the link for that?

Also I've been wondering if it was part of the chandelier that fell?

I was the OP who suggested that the chandelier fell to the ground, injuring Max. I am unable to see how he fell/jumped on the chandelier, so it occurred to me that perhaps the chandelier fell to the floor, knocking him down.

As to why it would fall, well chandeliers do, occasionally. Google 'chandelier falls' and you will find a number of cases, particularly in public buildings where they would definitely be publicized.

Of course, not a single one of us on this board knows for sure how the chandelier came down. It's just my opinion that it could have become loose and fallen. And no, it wouldn't have had to have fallen completely on him-but if a 100 lb +(estimated) light fixture fell, it could have knocked him down and to one side.

jjenny
09-16-2011, 12:05 AM
I was the OP who suggested that the chandelier fell to the ground, injuring Max. I am unable to see how he fell/jumped on the chandelier, so it occurred to me that perhaps the chandelier fell to the floor, knocking him down.

As to why it would fall, well chandeliers do, occasionally. Google 'chandelier falls' and you will find a number of cases, particularly in public buildings where they would definitely be publicized.

Of course, not a single one of us on this board knows for sure how the chandelier came down. It's just my opinion that it could have become loose and fallen. And no, it wouldn't have had to have fallen completely on him-but if a 100 lb +(estimated) light fixture fell, it could have knocked him down and to one side.

If chandelier had simply fallen, it wouldn't have hit him while he was on the stairs. If he was downstairs and it fell on him I really don't think he would have gotten a severe spinal cord injury that he did.

rosemary
09-16-2011, 12:13 AM
If someone was alive to question, that might have changed. Also, RZ did not know what the outcome would be.

IMO
If Rebecca had been under suspicion for negligence or something worse, the police would have investigated the matter further by questioning Rebecca's sister. She is still alive you know. Btw, how would you know that the whole outcome would have changed if Rebecca is still alive? Remember, the LE only decided to take another look at Max's fall after Rebecca was found dead, and they still found the whole incident to be an accident.

sdcali
09-16-2011, 12:31 AM
I began rewatching the PC today. LE pointed out that there was chandelier glass on the first floor landing near the stairs descending to the foyer. I am puzzled as to how it got there. The only answer I have is if Maxie fell onto the chandelier and swung with it toward that side of the lower staircase as the chandelier chain broke and both fell agains that part of the bannister. It was also mentioned that broken glass was found in that corner of the alcove below.

I think that is where they came up with the conclusion that he fell off the stairway from direction that they do and with enough velocity that he swung the chandelier to that point before it broke loose and fell.

I am still having trouble with that and wish that LE had taken photos of the hall looking toward the chandelier over that part of the bannister that they believe he went over. I can understand that if were able to fall onto the chandelier that it could swing and carry him over to the other side, but I still struggle with that scenario.

What do I think happened? I have no scenario of my own, yet.

Sharyne
09-16-2011, 12:32 AM
I was the OP who suggested that the chandelier fell to the ground, injuring Max. I am unable to see how he fell/jumped on the chandelier, so it occurred to me that perhaps the chandelier fell to the floor, knocking him down.

As to why it would fall, well chandeliers do, occasionally. Google 'chandelier falls' and you will find a number of cases, particularly in public buildings where they would definitely be publicized.

Of course, not a single one of us on this board knows for sure how the chandelier came down. It's just my opinion that it could have become loose and fallen. And no, it wouldn't have had to have fallen completely on him-but if a 100 lb +(estimated) light fixture fell, it could have knocked him down and to one side.

When I first read about Max having fallen from the stairs, the comments below the article that first night mentioned a chandelier was part of the scene - by supposed neighbors talking about it.

rosemary
09-16-2011, 12:44 AM
My main concern is why would RN tell the ME one thing, that Max was last seen in the kitchen, and then tell her sisters other details, like he was last known to be playing in the hallway? If you're explanation is correct, then she should have shared that with the authorities, and not just said " he was in the kitchen last I knew.'

And if she did hear him playing in the upstairs hallway then imo, she should have left the bathroom, and gone and checked on him, and asked him not to run in the upstairs stairway area. imoo

In many ways a 6 yr old needs more supervision than a toddler. And I never said she was a vicious criminal, just that she was not a very good babysitter,imo. She should not have been in the bathroom for up to 20 minutes while she could hear Max running around in the upstairs hallway, unsupervised. That is not 'trashing' her, just stating my opinion. And the reason it is important is because I see it as a valid motivation for either her murder or her suicide.

Rebecca was Jonah's gf, she may not have been a good babysitter but it is not her job to look after her bf's kids. Even if she had agreed to take care of Jonah's children, she is not entirely responsible for their safety and well being. Being the dad, Jonah should have hired a nanny or babysitter or someone who knows how to look after kids rather than relying on his lover to do so. And if he had been as good a father as some people here have claimed, why didn't he child proof his house to prevent or minimize the risks of accidents? In a house that big, it would have been hard to closely supervise a boy as active and boisterous as Max. Fatal accidents do happen, even to children with attentive parents. In fact, it's the number one cause of mortality for children aged 5 to 14 years of age.

5-14 years of age
Number of deaths: 6,147
Deaths per 100,000 population: 15.3
Leading causes of death
Accidents (unintentional injuries)
Cancer
Sources: Deaths: Final Data for 2007, tables 10, 11 [PDF - 555 KB] and Deaths: Leading Causes for 2007, table 1 [PDF - 3.7 MB]

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/children.htm

SophieRose
09-16-2011, 03:47 AM
That would be great if they get the SW & affidavits released. They may answer many of our questions.

Yes they may. There was one search warrant by Coronado LE, one by the San Diego Sheriff, and many many for phone records.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 09:38 AM
Rebecca was Jonah's gf, she may not have been a good babysitter but it is not her job to look after her bf's kids. Even if she had agreed to take care of Jonah's children, she is not entirely responsible for their safety and well being. Being the dad, Jonah should have hired a nanny or babysitter or someone who knows how to look after kids rather than relying on his lover to do so. And if he had been as good a father as some people here have claimed, why didn't he child proof his house to prevent or minimize the risks of accidents? In a house that big, it would have been hard to closely supervise a boy as active and boisterous as Max. Fatal accidents do happen, even to children with attentive parents. In fact, it's the number one cause of mortality for children aged 5 to 14 years of age.



http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/children.htm

Fatal accidents do happen, but falling down the stairs and receiving whiplash at the age of 6? How common is that?

Also, what do you think JS should have done to minimize the risks of a fatal fall? Remove the stairs?

CDS22
09-16-2011, 09:41 AM
Rebecca was Jonah's gf, she may not have been a good babysitter but it is not her job to look after her bf's kids. Even if she had agreed to take care of Jonah's children, she is not entirely responsible for their safety and well being. Being the dad, Jonah should have hired a nanny or babysitter or someone who knows how to look after kids rather than relying on his lover to do so.




So you think hired staff could do a better job of watching children than someone who professes to love the child so much that she refers to him as her son?

SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 10:14 AM
Someone might have failed to call him until the were on the way to the hospital, in which case it would make no sense to go home first. I almost wish that he did, though, so someone who cares about Max could have seen how he was laying, where the chandelier pieces were, etc.

Are you saying that Rebecca did not call JS, prior to her being taken to the hospital and police station, or something else? I'm sorry if I missed something that explains this up thread.

The report says she told the police she gave Max a "few rescue breaths". "A few" doesn't sound too enthusiastic, does it?

If you could supply a link that states 'a few', I would appreciate it, as I am wondering if she was doing all compressions either before or after the rescue breaths. TIA

curiousjo
09-16-2011, 10:24 AM
CPR guidelines have changed - the layperson is tought to do chest comprssions ONLY, and to not perform rescue breaths.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/203720.php

"A statewide program was set up in Arizona aimed at improving the survival rates for people with cardiac arrest outside a hospital setting.

....As compression only CPR, known medically as COCPR is easier to teach and then perform by lay people compared to conventional CPR with mouth-to-mouth breathing, a multifaceted effort was launched to encourage COCPR.

...The investigators discovered, after further examination, that those receiving COCPR had a 60% higher chance of surviving compared to individuals receiving conventional CPR".

CDS22
09-16-2011, 11:07 AM
Statistics of child deaths from fall down stairs:

http://adc.bmj.com/content/86/suppl_1/A53.full.pdf

The last paragraph is particularly interesting.

jjenny
09-16-2011, 11:09 AM
Statistics of child deaths from fall down stairs:

http://adc.bmj.com/content/86/suppl_1/A53.full.pdf

The last paragraph is particularly interesting.

Only he didn't fell "down the stairs." He fell into the stair well.

ehough22
09-16-2011, 11:10 AM
To be honest I don't understand the accusations that Rebecca wasn't performing CPR or somehow failed in her duty to Max based on how she did or didn't perform it. She did perform it (according to the AR) but when the EMTs arrived she was not. If I had performed CPR unsuccessfully for however many minutes and then the EMTs arrived, I would stop too. It was their job and I would get the heck out of the way in the hopes that they could do it. I would only continue until they physically moved me out of the way if I was successful, which she wasn't. We simply don't know what happened, granted, but it is not odd, suspicious, or malicious of someone to stop CPR when the professionals arrive, IMO.

I also think, once again, we need to take Rebecca's sisters' claims with a grain of salt. Even though I agree with them I don't put a lot of weight on their statements. They weren't there. Any claims that Rebecca heard Max upstairs are simply hearsay. Statistically, statements made right after the fact and by parties directly involved are going to be more accurate than those made by a third party a month or two after an incident. I'm not saying there wasn't something hinky going on that day or that things went exactly as Rebecca says they did. I just don't think we can really take these statements as fact or as evidence of anything.

Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 11:21 AM
Statistics of child deaths from fall down stairs:

http://adc.bmj.com/content/86/suppl_1/A53.full.pdf

The last paragraph is particularly interesting.

But he didn't fall down the stairs, he went over the railing..

CDS22
09-16-2011, 11:24 AM
To be honest I don't understand the accusations that Rebecca wasn't performing CPR or somehow failed in her duty to Max based on how she did or didn't perform it. She did perform it (according to the AR) but when the EMTs arrived she was not. If I had performed CPR unsuccessfully for however many minutes and then the EMTs arrived, I would stop too. It was their job and I would get the heck out of the way in the hopes that they could do it. I would only continue until they physically moved me out of the way if I was successful, which she wasn't. We simply don't know what happened, granted, but it is not odd, suspicious, or malicious of someone to stop CPR when the professionals arrive, IMO.

I also think, once again, we need to take Rebecca's sisters' claims with a grain of salt. Even though I agree with them I don't put a lot of weight on their statements. They weren't there. Any claims that Rebecca heard Max upstairs are simply hearsay. Statistically, statements made right after the fact and by parties directly involved are going to be more accurate than those made by third party a month or two after an incident. I'm not saying there wasn't something hinky going on that day or that things went exactly as Rebecca says they did. I just don't think we can really take these statements as fact or as evidence of anything.

I don't think anyone is accusing RZ of anything, but rather examining the AR, which states that she told them she gave a few rescue breaths, but wasn't actually witnessed doing it. Since it wasn't witnessed, and since there are other discrepancies (calling Max her son, calling her sister her daughter, saying she was in and out of the hospital all day when she really wasn't), makes people wonder what really happened. There are only three people who were in the house when Max fell, and two of them are dead. I guess that's why so many people are digging for answers.

IMO

CDS22
09-16-2011, 11:25 AM
But he didn't fall down the stairs, he went over the railing..

There are no official statistics about 6 year old children who somehow fly through the air, wind up with a chandelier near them and a scooter over a shin, while sustaining fatal whiplash and injuries across the shoulder and back. At least not that I could find.

ehough22
09-16-2011, 11:39 AM
I don't think anyone is accusing RZ of anything, but rather examining the AR, which states that she told them she gave a few rescue breaths, but wasn't actually witnessed doing it. Since it wasn't witnessed, and since there are other discrepancies (calling Max her son, calling her sister her daughter, saying she was in and out of the hospital all day when she really wasn't), makes people wonder what really happened. There are only three people who were in the house when Max fell, and two of them are dead. I guess that's why so many people are digging for answers.

IMO


I don't think that's necessarily true regarding the few rescue breaths. It says she gave a few and then told XZ to call 911. We don't know whether she resumed the breathing but it could have been worded that way to explain the timing and situation of the initial call. Elsewhere it says she did start CPR which I assume they are differentiating from rescue breaths.

Regardless my point was that while I understand the necessity and urge to go over every detail with a fine toothed comb, I simply don't think Rebecca stopping CPR once EMT arrived is anything noteworthy. I think it's understandable.

justice be served
09-16-2011, 11:52 AM
My first post on WS was regarding hearsay that Rebecca wasn't thought to be very good with Max. Being new, I learned quickly about the great rules of WS including those on hearsay. That reported hearsay may or may not be true and not being good with a little guy certainly shouldn't be construed that she killed him.

What I do know about this Max thread is much of its tone is vitriolic and vengeful toward Rebecca which certainly in my mind is persecuting Rebecca after her death. IMO Max's death doesn't add up however..........

Perhaps a new thread should be initiated by those who want to persecute Rebecca and call it "Is An 'Eye-for-an-Eye' Warranted?".

IMO two wrongs don't make a right and this should be an unsaid value. If Rebecca was somehow responsible in any way for Max's death, she has already paid the ultimate price whether by suicide or murder. And no I don't want to see my suggested thread get started.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 12:12 PM
I don't think that's necessarily true regarding the few rescue breaths. It says she gave a few and then told XZ to call 911. We don't know whether she resumed the breathing but it could have been worded that way to explain the timing and situation of the initial call. Elsewhere it says she did start CPR which I assume they are differentiating from rescue breaths.

Regardless my point was that while I understand the necessity and urge to go over every detail with a fine toothed comb, I simply don't think Rebecca stopping CPR once EMT arrived is anything noteworthy. I think it's understandable.

The "few rescue breaths" are on page 2 of the AR, which is linked in the first post of this thread.

Also, it does not say RZ STOPPED giving CPR when they arrived. It says she was NOT giving CPR when they arrived.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 12:13 PM
My first post on WS was regarding hearsay that Rebecca wasn't thought to be very good with Max. Being new, I learned quickly about the great rules of WS including those on hearsay. That reported hearsay may or may not be true and not being good with a little guy certainly shouldn't be construed that she killed him.

What I do know about this Max thread is much of its tone is vitriolic and vengeful toward Rebecca which certainly in my mind is persecuting Rebecca after her death. IMO Max's death doesn't add up however..........

Perhaps a new thread should be initiated by those who want to persecute Rebecca and call it "Is An 'Eye-for-an-Eye' Warranted?".

IMO two wrongs don't make a right and this should be an unsaid value. If Rebecca was somehow responsible in any way for Max's death, she has already paid the ultimate price whether by suicide or murder. And no I don't want to see my suggested thread get started.

I haven't seen anyone suggest RZ killed anyone, including MS. I believe many of us are simply trying to figure out the logistics of a child's death.

IMO

ehough22
09-16-2011, 12:20 PM
The "few rescue breaths" are on page 2 of the AR, which is linked in the first post of this thread.

Also, it does not say RZ STOPPED giving CPR when they arrived. It says she was NOT giving CPR when they arrived.

....precisely. I see the few rescue breaths. I'm saying that doesn't mean she only did those few breaths.

And semantics, really. I am very uncomfortable with the insinuation that because a person was not performing CPR when the professionals arrived it means she was lying about performing it to begin with. As I've said, I think there's a logical reason for her to not be performing it once they arrived. I simply wanted to point out that there are less than malicious reasons for that.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 12:33 PM
....precisely. I see the few rescue breaths. I'm saying that doesn't mean she only did those few breaths.

And semantics, really. I am very uncomfortable with the insinuation that because a person was not performing CPR when the professionals arrived it means she was lying about performing it to begin with. As I've said, I think there's a logical reason for her to not be performing it once they arrived. I simply wanted to point out that there are less than malicious reasons for that.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions about discrepancies.

IMO

IWannaKnow
09-16-2011, 12:36 PM
Maybe not suggesting she killed him, but was horribly negligent, self-involved, uncaring, proprietorial, untruthful, slipshod...... THE WOMAN IS DEAD. Has she not given enough? Must she also give a pound of post-mortem flesh to atone for her perceived sins? Where is all the concern for the feelings of the Zahau family? Max is not the only person who died at the Spreckles Mansion.

justice be served
09-16-2011, 12:45 PM
Maybe not suggesting she killed him, but was horribly negligent, self-involved, uncaring, proprietorial, untruthful, slipshod...... THE WOMAN IS DEAD. Has she not given enough? Must she also give a pound of post-mortem flesh to atone for her perceived sins? Where is all the concern for the feelings of the Zahau family? Max is not the only person who died at the Spreckles Mansion.

IWannaKnow, your 'must she give a pound of post-mortem flesh to atone for her perceived sins' sums it up perfectly about this persecution shown to a dead woman.

While I understand the anger some may feel over Max as I would as well, I am getting the feeling that some feel that Rebecca needs to be shown to be responsible for Max's death, period.

Rebecca was Jonah's two-year girlfriend and Jonah has every bit as much responsibility for Max's accident due to their living arrangement with his child involved. He seems to have been left out of the persecution argument.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 12:50 PM
Maybe not suggesting she killed him, but was horribly negligent, self-involved, uncaring, proprietorial, untruthful, slipshod...... THE WOMAN IS DEAD. Has she not given enough? Must she also give a pound of post-mortem flesh to atone for her perceived sins? Where is all the concern for the feelings of the Zahau family? Max is not the only person who died at the Spreckles Mansion.

This thread is about MS's death. If you want to discuss RZ's death, there are multiple threads for that. MS has only one.

CDS22
09-16-2011, 12:53 PM
IWannaKnow, your 'must she give a pound of post-mortem flesh to atone for her perceived sins' sums it up perfectly about this persecution shown to a dead woman.

While I understand the anger some may feel over Max as I would as well, I am getting the feeling that some feel that Rebecca needs to be shown to be responsible for Max's death, period.

Rebecca was Jonah's two-year girlfriend and Jonah has every bit as much responsibility for Max's accident due to their living arrangement with his child involved. He seems to have been left out of the persecution argument.

Why would you perceive it as "persecution" to ask how a small child died? To question the logistics of a chandelier being found at the shoulder of a child while a scooter lies across his shin is not "persecution".

CDS22
09-16-2011, 12:57 PM
I've been thinking over the different theories presented on this thread for how Max was injured. The ball theory is an interesting one (Max got a ball caught in the chandelier and threw another one to try to dislodge it, lost his balance, and fell over the railing). Except - the railing was too high for him to fall over. Did he climb on it? Perhaps, but he strikes me as having been too bright to try something so dangerous. But let's suppose he did. Then if he were to fall to his death, how would he be found on his back with the scooter across his leg, and why would the balls be found by him? If the balls were in the chandelier, the force of them being knocked out with Max and the chandelier would have caused them to scatter. They wouldn't be found at the bottom of the accident scene together near a scooter and downed chandelier.

CalElliot
09-16-2011, 12:59 PM
Does anyone have link for photo or video of chandelier in foyer during second search warrant? I thought I recalled seeing it in a news clip, but can't find it, may be mistaken.

TIA

justice be served
09-16-2011, 12:59 PM
Well I guess we should just get back to the business of speculating on the bereaved Shacknai family. It's much more appropriate conversation to insinuate they are all murderers, bad fathers, cold hearted etc. Carry on, why investigate a little boy's suspicious death. IMO moo Mumu whatever. . .

I think the poll speaks for itself in terms of the public perception based on the information so far released.

chasing.halos
09-16-2011, 01:02 PM
Regarding the scooter... I do find it interesting that the reenactment provided by LE in how Maxie supposedly fell does not include the scooter. If they think he was riding it, do you all think they would have included that in their reenactment? Because either the scooter went with him over the railing or the scooter happened to be downstairs, maybe propped against the railing and happened to land on Maxie after he fell.

I am NOT saying that I believe this-- but based on the autopsy (sorry I cannot read it, too horrible for me to read), do you think he could have been pushed over the railing? Or do you think he would need momentum to fall in the way LE says he did?

thinkingstraight
09-16-2011, 01:08 PM
I would think a great deal of momentum or force would be needed to sustain such injuries. But I have absolutely no idea how he got up that much speed or force on his own.