View Full Version : Rebecca's Autopsy
JBean
09-11-2011, 01:49 PM
Please discuss the autopsy here.
Autopsy (https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/ubzLg)
jjenny
09-11-2011, 07:20 PM
It's in the AR. And he didn't know it was useless, just like RZ didn't know it was useless to give little Max the same privilege.
I don't see anything in the AR to suggest that AS was witnessed giving CPR or that he did it for a "really long time."
CDS22
09-11-2011, 07:25 PM
I don't see anything in the AR to suggest that AS was witnessed giving CPR or that he did it for a "really long time."
It says he did it from when he found her til they arrived and continued to administer CPR til they told him to stop. More than what little Max got.
jjenny
09-11-2011, 07:27 PM
It says he did it from when he found her til they arrived and continued to administer CPR til they told him to stop. More than what little Max got.
Where does it say that? What it says is that Police Department arrived and began CPR and when Fire Department arrived they told Police Department to stop because she was already in rigor. Frankly that only suggests to me Coronado Police Department doesn't have much experience with dead bodies since they hasn't recognized there was no point of giving RN CPR.
Dr. Know?
09-11-2011, 07:57 PM
I just finished reading the autopsy report and AS cut her down and removed the portion of the shirt that was in her mouth in order to do mouth to mouth. The PD then showed up at 6:48 am (iirc) and started to administer CPR but found rigor setting in and stopped.
Boy, I had to sit with a medical dictionary to understand much of the report. The black paint as describe has me thinking a lot right now as well as all of the areas there were marks on her body & head.
curiousjo
09-11-2011, 09:54 PM
Interesting review of RN autopsy findings:
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/08/rebecca-zahau-case-a-review-of-the-autopsy-report/
..."So to summarize, what we have is a beautiful young woman with no history of depression or psychiatric illness, grieving for a dying child, but no reports of excessive guilt, with no drugs or alcohol in her system, and no signs of a severe assault, who was found naked, bound, and gagged, hanging from a balcony from a water sport towing rope. Her injuries are very consistent with a drop of that length, as opposed to being staged into a noose from the ground below. She did not break her neck or injure her brain or spinal cord in the fall, or before the fall, but her laryngeal structures were essentially crushed and her neck muscles severely torn. The circumstances and the findings at the scene are perplexing, as is the psychological “post mortem” of her last few days.
And we still don’t know whether it was suicide or homicide. The authorities have ruled it a suicide. I’m still not sure I agree."
Lera213
09-12-2011, 06:06 AM
So if I'm reading correctly the ME declared it a suicide because of the dirty feet and her foot prints but no other foot prints other than an officer while processing the scene.
I suppose if it was murder, the killer could have held a gun to her and forced her out and then jump.
The hands tied behind the back stated that one of her hands could have been pulled out easily. Well suppose she was working the rope and got it loose just before the jump or leap.
The writing is strange, and the suicide is strange. Were they able to tell if it was her writing on the wall or not?
"She saved him, but can you save her" Ok if she did write this, how did she save him? She was told that day that he wasn't expected to live right? So how is that saving him? Can you save her? Ok if she wrote that she is speaking to herself in past tense. This is very strange.
IWannaKnow
09-12-2011, 10:54 AM
Rebecca had 84" of rope extending away from her wrist bindings, and the tow rope handle was within the bindings on her feet. Given that I don't think there is any way in hell she could have propelled herself over that railing at her height with her hands bound behind her back IN ONE ATTEMPT based upon the foot prints found on the balcony.....makes me think that the handle on her feet and the 7 FEET of rope off her hands could have easily been used to manipulate her unconscious body over the railing.
sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 08:14 PM
Reviewing Rebecca's AR, and I noticed this (on page 10, under POSTMORTEM CHANGES):
There is also red livor mortis on the upper chest.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
SophieRose
09-12-2011, 09:40 PM
So if I'm reading correctly the ME declared it a suicide because of the dirty feet and her foot prints but no other foot prints other than an officer while processing the scene.
I suppose if it was murder, the killer could have held a gun to her and forced her out and then jump.
If it were me, they would have to shoot me before I would jump. Plus if I lived through the shooting, the sound might bring someone.
Dr. Know?
09-12-2011, 10:14 PM
(′lī′vör ′mörd·əs)
livor mortis (sounds normal at the amount of time after her death that ME started documenting the autopsy but wish there were some experts to weigh in here!)
(pathology) The reddish-blue discoloration of the cadaver that occurs in the dependent portions of the body due to gradual gravitational flow of unclotted blood.
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/livor-mortis#ixzz1XnK7KrW3
Here's another answer.
Answer: Improve
Livor mortis starts 20 minutes to 3 hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in 4 to 5 hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6-12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_before_livor_mortis_sets_in#ixzz1XnLuOC3a
sorrell skye
09-13-2011, 02:03 PM
I'm still wondering about the red livor mortis on the upper chest.
The AR states:
POSTMORTEM CHANGES: Rigor mortis is mild and easily broken in the upper and lower extremities, neck, and jaw. Livor mortis is posterior, red and fixed. There is also red livor mortis on the upper chest.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
No mention of livor mortis in the extremities. From what I've read about hanging deaths, livor mortis develops in the feet and hands.
RZ was allegedly hanging for about 4 hours postmortem. There should have been lividity in her feet & hands.
After she was cut down, she was reportedly immediately turned over onto her back (but tilted toward her left side),and lay on the ground for about 12 hours before she was transported to the ME's office.
After hanging for 4 hours, how is it that no livor mortis developed in her extremities?
If turned over immediately, how is that livor mortis developed on her upper chest?
As has been discussed before: since she was lying on her back tilted toward her left side for 12 hours, how is it that livor mortis was only on her posterior, and not also on her left side?
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 02:07 PM
It says he did it from when he found her til they arrived and continued to administer CPR til they told him to stop. More than what little Max got.
Reviewing Rebecca's AR, and I noticed this (on page 10, under POSTMORTEM CHANGES):
There is also red livor mortis on the upper chest.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
This to me is something that makes NO sense and should be explained. It almost sounds, due to the word red being involved, as if Rebecca received an upper chest injury?
When we talk about livor and rigor mortis, it leads me to wonder how she could have livor mortis on her back. When was she on her back for long enough for that to occur?
sorrell skye
09-13-2011, 03:16 PM
This to me is something that makes NO sense and should be explained. It almost sounds, due to the word red being involved, as if Rebecca received an upper chest injury?
When we talk about livor and rigor mortis, it leads me to wonder how she could have livor mortis on her back. When was she on her back for long enough for that to occur?
With the red livor mortis on her upper chest noted by the ME, it sounds to me as if she had been lying face-down postmortem @ some point for a long enough period of time for the blood to settle in that area, but not long enough for it to become "fixed", as it was on her back.
Yet, no lividity in the extremities (either fixed or transient) was noted in the AR (which would be expected in a hanging death where the victim had hung for 4 hours). Very odd, IMO.
I look forward to Dr. Wecht weighing in on this.
jjenny
09-13-2011, 03:38 PM
With the red livor mortis on her upper chest noted by the ME, it sounds to me as if she had been lying face-down postmortem @ some point for a long enough period of time for the blood to settle in that area, but not long enough for it to become "fixed", as it was on her back.
Yet, no lividity in the extremities (either fixed or transient) was noted in the AR (which would be expected in a hanging death where the victim had hung for 4 hours). Very odd, IMO.
I look forward to Dr. Wecht weighing in on this.
She was hanging first (for at least 3 and a half hours), then put onto her side (because her bound hands prevented her being flat on her back). I would expect livor mortis in her feet and hands, and on her side, but what do I know.
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 03:43 PM
With the red livor mortis on her upper chest noted by the ME, it sounds to me as if she had been lying face-down postmortem @ some point for a long enough period of time for the blood to settle in that area, but not long enough for it to become "fixed", as it was on her back.
Yet, no lividity in the extremities (either fixed or transient) was noted in the AR (which would be expected in a hanging death where the victim had hung for 4 hours). Very odd, IMO.
I look forward to Dr. Wecht weighing in on this.
The fact that there is no livor in her extremities, along with livor on her back, not side, and the 'red' livor on her chest, tells me that there is NOT an adequate explanation for what occurred to Rebecca. Too much livor in all the wrong places.
Tells me she was on her back for at least 4 hours, prior to being hung. Still doesn not explain the livor on the chest however.
CDS22
09-13-2011, 03:49 PM
This to me is something that makes NO sense and should be explained. It almost sounds, due to the word red being involved, as if Rebecca received an upper chest injury?
When we talk about livor and rigor mortis, it leads me to wonder how she could have livor mortis on her back. When was she on her back for long enough for that to occur?
Didn't they leave her lying on her back all day while they collected evidence?
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 03:54 PM
Didn't they leave her lying on her back all day while they collected evidence?
Left side, as you can note yourself in photos.
sorrell skye
09-13-2011, 04:17 PM
I remember reading recently (can't remember where I read it), that livor mortis can be redistributed to other areas of the body before it becomes fixed, if the body is moved into a different position. That still doesn't account for the lack of lividity in RZ's feet & hands, since with the lack of blood pressure, if lividity had developed in her feet & hands while hanging, even after being moved to a semi-supine position, at the very least the lividity should have developed somewhere in her hands, feet, arms, or legs, IMO.
I found this interesting information just now:
Livor Mortis
Evident 30-120 minutes postmortem
8-12 hours (24-36 hours in cooler temps) postmortem-maximum color or "fixed"
May occur antemortem (before death) in slow deaths
http://www.hpregional.org/departments/science/staffhomepages/tcostello/TimeofDeath.pdf
jjenny
09-13-2011, 04:21 PM
I remember reading recently (can't remember where I read it), that livor mortis can be redistributed to other areas of the body before it becomes fixed, if the body is moved into a different position.
I found this interesting information just now:
Livor Mortis
Evident 30-120 minutes postmortem
8-12 hours (24-36 hours in cooler temps) postmortem-maximum color or "fixed"
May occur antemortem (before death) in slow deaths
http://www.hpregional.org/departments/science/staffhomepages/tcostello/TimeofDeath.pdf
Yes, it can be re-distributed, but she was hanging first (for at least 3 and a half hours), and then laid on her side (for hours and hours-we all saw the helicopter photos). So it should have been fixed during that time.
deanna82437
09-13-2011, 04:27 PM
Yes, it can be re-distributed, but she was hanging first (for at least 3 and a half hours), and then laid on her side (for hours and hours-we all saw the helicopter photos). So it should have been fixed during that time.
Would air temperature have anything to do with this as we know she laid in direct sun the entire day. Anyone know what the temps were? I've seen reports that it was a sunny day.
jjenny
09-13-2011, 04:35 PM
Would air temperature have anything to do with this as we know she laid in direct sun the entire day. Anyone know what the temps were? I've seen reports that it was a sunny day.
The hotter it were, the sooner it would become fixed.
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 04:49 PM
Yes, it can be re-distributed, but she was hanging first (for at least 3 and a half hours), and then laid on her side (for hours and hours-we all saw the helicopter photos). So it should have been fixed during that time.
Apparantly this is not correct, looking at livor patterns.:innocent: Wish we knew what really happened. :banghead:
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 08:20 PM
Noticed this in the autopsy report:
On page 4 the ME states that at 2000 (8 pm), the bedroom had not yet been processed by LE, so he only examined the bedroom door! He didn't even enter the bedroom to look at the rope and how it was fastened onto the bed!!
He says by viewing the room, he could see that the rope was attached to the bed by a simple slip knot. That was by looking, from outside the room.
Now if this is correct and the room had not yet been processed, how did he see the rope hanging out the window at 1914?? Page 3 of the Dana Gray report, prior to the autopsy, in the same report.
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 08:38 PM
Another question in the autopsy report, page 8:
"The free "slipping" portion of the rope which passes through the knot extents 5 inches from it and has an additional 1-1/4 inch extension of FRAYED fibers."
So, if this piece has frayed fibers, why are they not mentioned regarding the other two pieces of rope? They were all cut by a knife, so they should all have similar frayed ends. There should also be frays on the carpet.
Of course there is the possibility that the rope was cut prior to being brought to the room, but no fibers were noted in the garage either, even though the rope 'may' have come from there. And if that was the case, Rebecca would not have needed knives in the bedroom.
Bonepile
09-13-2011, 08:40 PM
Would air temperature have anything to do with this as we know she laid in direct sun the entire day. Anyone know what the temps were? I've seen reports that it was a sunny day.
July 13, 2011
3 AM - 60 degrees ... Sunrise - 5:50 AM
8 AM - 65
10 AM - 67
12 noon - 69
2 PM-3 PM - 70
5 PM - 68
8 PM - 60 ... Sunset - 7:57 PM
(courtesy: wunderground.com)
Rhyme & Reason
09-13-2011, 08:43 PM
It says he did it from when he found her til they arrived and continued to administer CPR til they told him to stop. More than what little Max got.
No, it does not say that at all. Do you have a link to where you read this? TIA!
Bonepile
09-13-2011, 08:45 PM
I am still very upset with them for leaving her baking in the sun fully exposed all day. And yes I know the argument of needing a search warrant before doing anything, but as mystery author P.D. James would say at least "cover her face".
jjenny
09-13-2011, 08:54 PM
No, it does not say that at all. Do you have a link to where you read this? TIA!
AS wasn't told to stop CPR and from the autopsy report it doesn't appear he ever started it. According to the autopsy report, AS cut RN down and removed a blue cloth from her mouse. Police Department then arrived and started CPR (and I can't figure out how they could have started CPR since she couldn't be laid flat on her back because her hands were still bound behind her back). Then Fire Department arrived and told Police Department to stop because she was already in rigor.
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDS22
It says he did it from when he found her til they arrived and continued to administer CPR til they told him to stop. More than what little Max got.
I meant to address this earlier. Rebecca gave Max cpr as stated in the report by the Police officer who wrote the report. He also got cpr from ems personnel. How that could at all mean that he didn't receive cpr, or that Rebecca received 'more' than Max. That doesn't seem to be at all true.
If you have ever performed cpr, you know that it is hard work. At hospitals we have numerous personnel and change positions every few minutes as it is hard to keep pumping or holding and compressing the ambu bag. Rebecca was doing cpr, did not even have the help of the LE officer. I am sure that she did the best she could do under the circumstances. The fact that it took ems 25 minutes + before they got Max's heart going, tells me that the only reason he had a chance was due to early cpr intervention by Rebecca.
deanna82437
09-13-2011, 09:31 PM
July 13, 2011
3 AM - 60 degrees ... Sunrise - 5:50 AM
8 AM - 65
10 AM - 67
12 noon - 69
2 PM-3 PM - 70
5 PM - 68
8 PM - 60 ... Sunset - 7:57 PM
(courtesy: wunderground.com)
It just astounds me that they let Rebecca lay in the sun for 12 hours. Thank you Bonepile for the above.
I see Sunset was at 7:57pm, the ME did not even show up until 7:14pm. How in he11 did he have time to do a decent examination on Rebecca's body before dark and how many changes had taken place as her body lay in the sun all day long. Simply disgusting and shoddy work!! I am at a loss for words at the TOTAL lack of respect ..
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 11:35 PM
It just astounds me that they let Rebecca lay in the sun for 12 hours. Thank you Bonepile for the above.
I see Sunset was at 7:57pm, the ME did not even show up until 7:14pm. How in he11 did he have time to do a decent examination on Rebecca's body before dark and how many changes had taken place as her body lay in the sun all day long. Simply disgusting and shoddy work!! I am at a loss for words at the TOTAL lack of respect ..
But, we do know why the balcony pictures are in the dark. I just wonder when 'one foot' left the boot print, as it had to be prior to the crime scene being documented.
jjenny
09-13-2011, 11:37 PM
And how could they accurately pinpoint a time of death considering she lay there for hours and hours after being cut down. Is this how it's normally done?
scorekeeper
09-13-2011, 11:41 PM
It just astounds me that they let Rebecca lay in the sun for 12 hours. Thank you Bonepile for the above.
I see Sunset was at 7:57pm, the ME did not even show up until 7:14pm. How in he11 did he have time to do a decent examination on Rebecca's body before dark and how many changes had taken place as her body lay in the sun all day long. Simply disgusting and shoddy work!! I am at a loss for words at the TOTAL lack of respect ..
This is down right unbelievable.....12 :maddening::maddening: hours?
Is this normal procedure......waiting so long for the ME to get there????
So sorry you were treated so disrespectful, RN......RIP
Rhyme & Reason
09-14-2011, 01:04 AM
It just astounds me that they let Rebecca lay in the sun for 12 hours. Thank you Bonepile for the above.
I see Sunset was at 7:57pm, the ME did not even show up until 7:14pm. How in he11 did he have time to do a decent examination on Rebecca's body before dark and how many changes had taken place as her body lay in the sun all day long. Simply disgusting and shoddy work!! I am at a loss for words at the TOTAL lack of respect ..
Page 4 of her AR is a comment by the ME, it states:
(Comment: The scene examination was performed under suboptimal lighting and examination conditions.)
deanna82437
09-14-2011, 10:28 AM
The link to the autopsy on page 1 does not work. It's been moved or deleted !!
Anyone have another link? I briefly looked on google but did not come up with one.
WSPeaches
09-14-2011, 11:15 AM
The autopsy report can be found here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/
SunnieRN
09-14-2011, 11:20 AM
The autopsy report can be found here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/
Thank you. I have a pdf version, but I don't know how to link it.
Rhyme & Reason
09-14-2011, 11:27 AM
The autopsy report can be found here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/
I see the ppt there but not the actual report. I'll attach the report to this post.
WSPeaches
09-14-2011, 11:46 AM
Thanks for that, R&R!
Rhyme & Reason
09-14-2011, 01:03 PM
Thanks for that, R&R!
You're welcome :)
sorrell skye
09-14-2011, 06:08 PM
Imagine scraping your torso (and maybe your legs, too) across this surface:
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/RZ/rail.jpg
And then imagine the numerous bloody scrapes, scratches,& cuts you'd get as a result.
ETA: the pic @the above link can be enlarged, so that the rough edges of the railing can be easily seen.
SunnieRN
09-14-2011, 06:31 PM
Imagine scraping your torso (and maybe your legs, too) across this surface:
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/RZ/rail.jpg
And then imagine the numerous bloody scrapes, scratches,& cuts you'd get as a result.
ETA: the pic @the above link can be enlarged, so that the rough edges of the railing can be easily seen.
Yet the injuries on her torso..... none!
sorrell skye
09-14-2011, 06:48 PM
Yet the injuries on her torso..... none!
Here's what the AR says about injuries to the chest & torso:
Page 13
Chest: None.
Abdomen: On the lateral right lower quadrant of the abdomen there is a 1/4 inch pale red abrasion. Just inferior to that is a discontinous, faint, 1 x 1/8 inch, thin, linear abrasion. On the left lower quadrant of the abdomen along the curvature of the left iliac spine there is a 3/8 x 1/4 inch red abrasion.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
The AR doesn't note whether it's the posterior iliac spine, or the anterior iliac spine, but I'm assuming the anterior, since it's in the part of the report that discusses the abdomen. The anterior iliac spine is the part of the front hip bone that juts out (for those who may not know what the iliac spine is).
According to the AR, RZ sustained 3 very minor, small skin abrasions to her abdomen/hip region.
After looking @ a close-up of the rough edges & jagged spots on the balcony railing, I find it impossible to believe that a woman of RZ's stature (5'3 1/2") could have hoisted herself over that railing with feet & hands bound without being cut to shreds on the front of her body.
tiredblondy
09-14-2011, 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDS22
It says he did it from when he found her til they arrived and continued to administer CPR til they told him to stop. More than what little Max got.
I meant to address this earlier. Rebecca gave Max cpr as stated in the report by the Police officer who wrote the report. He also got cpr from ems personnel. How that could at all mean that he didn't receive cpr, or that Rebecca received 'more' than Max. That doesn't seem to be at all true.
If you have ever performed cpr, you know that it is hard work. At hospitals we have numerous personnel and change positions every few minutes as it is hard to keep pumping or holding and compressing the ambu bag. Rebecca was doing cpr, did not even have the help of the LE officer. I am sure that she did the best she could do under the circumstances. The fact that it took ems 25 minutes + before they got Max's heart going, tells me that the only reason he had a chance was due to early cpr intervention by Rebecca.
Excellent point...it adresses the fact that Rebecca did rescue breaths, then CPR. There was no way correct CPR could have been done to her with her hands tied behind her back!
curiousjo
09-14-2011, 07:35 PM
"After looking @ a close-up of the rough edges & jagged spots on the balcony railing, I find it impossible to believe that a woman of RZ's stature (5'3 1/2") could have hoisted herself over that railing with feet & hands bound without being cut to shreds on the front of her body".
Since the LE video of woman tying ropes shows how RN could have tied hands loosly in front of her, then slipped hand out,... do you think she waited until on balcony to place hands in the behind back position.....? That way, she had a free hand up till the end.
jjenny
09-14-2011, 07:43 PM
Since the LE video of woman tying ropes shows how RN could have tied hands loosly in front of her, then slipped hand out,... do you think she waited until on balcony to place hands in the behind back position.....? That way, she had a free hand up till the end.
As rope expert on Dr. Drew stated, it's not that easy to put a hand behind back into the binding. You have to know which way the rope goes. If RN was standing there trying to place her hand into the binding, why are there a perfect set of non-smudged footprints? Those footprints suggest a person hopped onto the balcony, made one hope and went over. Not that a person was standing there adjusting ropes and trying to get her hand into the binding behind her back.
curiousjo
09-14-2011, 08:34 PM
Okay, so what if she put her hands behind her back just before stood on balcony? In the end, I do agree that this would be quite a feat. Very suspect....
jjenny
09-14-2011, 11:38 PM
Okay, so what if she put her hands behind her back just before stood on balcony? In the end, I do agree that this would be quite a feat. Very suspect....
One can argue that the rope might be there but the image is too fuzzy. But the doors are clearly closed in the helicopter shot. I don't see how she could have closed the door behind her with both hands bound behind her back and feet bound. The doors actually swing inside, so it's not like she could have used her body to close it.
defense101
09-16-2011, 12:25 AM
I noticed on the toxicology results that they were dated July 26th, we assumed all that time we were waiting and writing on this forum that they were waiting for those results, what took 5 weeks after the results were in to come to the suicide conclusion?
Sharyne
09-16-2011, 12:41 AM
But, we do know why the balcony pictures are in the dark. I just wonder when 'one foot' left the boot print, as it had to be prior to the crime scene being documented.
*sigh* To be honest, I cannot really make out any prints. I wonder if it's possible for someone to outline them, like has been done on other pictures of the balcony.
sdcali
09-16-2011, 01:37 AM
I just rewatched the PC. Several things jumped out at me. LE said that they "painstakingly" studied the bindings while they were still on Rebecca's wrists in order to reinact it for the video. The ME said that he is the one that took the rope off of her wrists and verified that was the way it was applied.
They said that paint was found on her hands , torso and the rope piece around her neck. That means that she had to have tied her hands and feet prior to painting the message. Even if she had slipped her hand out to paint the message, wouldn't it make sense that at least a small amount may have transferred to the wrist bindings?
Then she hops or shuffles back over to the foot of the bed to drop her paint brush (why there? why not drop it by the door?) and puts the noose portion over her head --getting paint only on the part of the rope she puts it around her neck. What about the shirt that went over the rope?? No paint at all on it? Then hops to the balcony? And of course, the one hop to the edge on her tippy toes.
LE said that when they first arrived on the scene, both balcony doors were open. I believe they were referring to CPD and not SDSO.
Dr. Know?
09-16-2011, 01:44 AM
One can argue that the rope might be there but the image is too fuzzy. But the doors are clearly closed in the helicopter shot. I don't see how she could have closed the door behind her with both hands bound behind her back and feet bound. The doors actually swing inside, so it's not like she could have used her body to close it.
I don't know but maybe I think backwards or something but the rope being on the inside could at least shut one of the balcony doors. The movement and force passing the doorway if the rope being pulled taught would be going outward and catching the door or doors with it closing shut. I feel at least one could have been closed, don't know if they were gravity type doors or not . Or they closed due to sagging of a house or just nice expensive doors. It's all hinky and hope there is further explanation for her family, the autopsy report is bothering me. imo
I'm left handed, tell me the truth, lol!
cynic
09-16-2011, 03:09 AM
Here are a few visual aids. I hope to have some more soon.
I think it should be abundantly clear that I am not an artist, LOL, but this should give a reasonable approximation of what is being described in the autopsy report.
:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nhm3br.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2q3w474.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/wgz19i.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/148dbtu.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/j96hyc.jpg
Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 03:27 AM
LOL cynic, you're not an artist you just play one on the internet, right?
Seriously though, awesome job, thanks so much for doing this!
cynic
09-16-2011, 04:08 AM
LOL cynic, you're not an artist you just play one on the internet, right?
Seriously though, awesome job, thanks so much for doing this!
I think I’d be a starving artist both in the “real world” and on the internet. :D
jjenny
09-16-2011, 07:00 AM
I just rewatched the PC. Several things jumped out at me. LE said that they "painstakingly" studied the bindings while they were still on Rebecca's wrists in order to reinact it for the video. The ME said that he is the one that took the rope off of her wrists and verified that was the way it was applied.
They said that paint was found on her hands , torso and the rope piece around her neck. That means that she had to have tied her hands and feet prior to painting the message. Even if she had slipped her hand out to paint the message, wouldn't it make sense that at least a small amount may have transferred to the wrist bindings?
Then she hops or shuffles back over to the foot of the bed to drop her paint brush (why there? why not drop it by the door?) and puts the noose portion over her head --getting paint only on the part of the rope she puts it around her neck. What about the shirt that went over the rope?? No paint at all on it? Then hops to the balcony? And of course, the one hop to the edge on her tippy toes.
LE said that when they first arrived on the scene, both balcony doors were open. I believe they were referring to CPD and not SDSO.
You are sure that LE said both balcony doors were open? Because in the photo by Coronado police officer, only one door is open. Furthermore Lt. N. claims the other door was secured with bolt-type lock into the floor.
""Photo two – showing both doors closed – we believe the door on the left was blown closed by a breeze; the door on the right was secured with a bolt-type lock into the floor," Nesbit continued."
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 09:51 AM
Here are a few visual aids. I hope to have some more soon.
I think it should be abundantly clear that I am not an artist, LOL, but this should give a reasonable approximation of what is being described in the autopsy report.
:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nhm3br.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2q3w474.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/wgz19i.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/148dbtu.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/j96hyc.jpg
Cynic, this is truly brilliant and brings me back to comments concerning the fact that Rebecca actually has a LOT of injuries, many of which have not been explained.
I would like to ask if I can have your permission to pass this on to some other people? It is a fantastic visual and makes some VERY good points!!
IWannaKnow
09-16-2011, 10:40 AM
Here are a few visual aids. I hope to have some more soon.
I think it should be abundantly clear that I am not an artist, LOL, but this should give a reasonable approximation of what is being described in the autopsy report.
:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nhm3br.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2q3w474.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/wgz19i.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/148dbtu.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/j96hyc.jpg
cynic - This is fantastic!! Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. To tell you the truth, I expected this to be attached to the AR. I thought they always did a drawing of marks, scars, etc.
So what do you make of your work? How could she have that posterior horizontal component without previous manual strangulation? She would have had to hang herself twice to accomplish that, the first time unsuccessfully and with the knot entirely anterior and no upward torque....no? And the other, finer marks noted, separated by areas of pallor. What is your take on all this? Do you think the marks on her forehead could be from contact with the railing, especially given the lack of bruising associated with them? Unlike the subgaleal hemorrhages.....
Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 11:29 AM
Cynic, this is truly brilliant and brings me back to comments concerning the fact that Rebecca actually has a LOT of injuries, many of which have not been explained.
I would like to ask if I can have your permission to pass this on to some other people? It is a fantastic visual and makes some VERY good points!!
It is brilliant, isn't it? It sure helps get all these injuries straight in my mind.
Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 11:30 AM
cynic - This is fantastic!! Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. To tell you the truth, I expected this to be attached to the AR. I thought they always did a drawing of marks, scars, etc.
So what do you make of your work? How could she have that posterior horizontal component without previous manual strangulation? She would have had to hang herself twice to accomplish that, the first time unsuccessfully and with the knot entirely anterior and no upward torque....no? And the other, finer marks noted, separated by areas of pallor. What is your take on all this? Do you think the marks on her forehead could be from contact with the railing, especially given the lack of bruising associated with them? Unlike the subgaleal hemorrhages.....
I also thought they always did a drawing & was surprised to see there wasn't one attached to the AR.
Rhyme & Reason
09-16-2011, 01:35 PM
I think I’d be a starving artist both in the “real world” and on the internet. :D
Starving? Nah, you're good!
IWannaKnow
09-16-2011, 02:02 PM
Snipped for space~
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nhm3br.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/148dbtu.jpg
Cynic-Could the injuries seen in your visual aids be attributed to being strangled against a railing? The railing giving the extra furrow on the back of the neck? Those hemorrhages at the sternocleidomastoid muscles are waaaaayyyyy too low to be attributed to the ligature, and there is no corresponding furrow over or near those hemorrhages AND the fracture of the cricoid!!! If it were attributed to the rope slipping, there should be corresponding abrasion of the skin, which is not noted.
Page 6:
There are numerous fine and coarse petechiae above the ligature furrow, extending from the chin to the angles of the mandible.
The neck, other than the injuries described below, is symmetrical and unremarkable.
Thoughts? :websleuther:
sdcali
09-16-2011, 02:38 PM
You are sure that LE said both balcony doors were open? Because in the photo by Coronado police officer, only one door is open. Furthermore Lt. N. claims the other door was secured with bolt-type lock into the floor.
""Photo two – showing both doors closed – we believe the door on the left was blown closed by a breeze; the door on the right was secured with a bolt-type lock into the floor," Nesbit continued."http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death
BBM
Yeah, that is exactly what they said in the press conference. I have a problem with the discrepancies. At 29:26 into the PC (the video is on the Sheriff's wesite page), LE said that the balcony doors were open at the time of the incident.
sorrell skye
09-16-2011, 05:27 PM
BBM
Yeah, that is exactly what they said in the press conference. I have a problem with the discrepancies. At 29:26 into the PC (the video is on the Sheriff's wesite page), LE said that the balcony doors were open at the time of the incident.
Yessirree - Sgt. Nemeth (SDSO homicide unit) stated in the Sept. 2 PC that "these doors were open at the time of the incident".
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html
Yet, recently, we've been told this by Lt. Nesbit:
"Photo two – showing both doors closed – we believe the door on the left was blown closed by a breeze; the door on the right was secured with a bolt-type lock into the floor," Nesbit continued.
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death
If the door on the right was secured with a "bolt-type lock into the floor" - how does this explain Sgt. Nemeth's PC statement that "these doors were open at the time of the incident"????
I'm still waiting for an official explanation as to why both balcony doors were closed when they were filmed @ ~ 4:45 p.m. on July 13, 2011 by a News 8 media helicopter, especially since Sgt. Nemeth stated in the Sept. 2 PC that "these doors were open at the time of the incident".
If "these doors were open at the time of the incident", who closed them prior to the News 8 helicopter footage that was taken @ ~ 4:45 p.m.on July 13, before the crime scene was processed?
If the SDSO wants the victim's family & the public to have faith in their investigative findings, then the SDSO needs to explain these discrepancies (and also answer other questions) to the victim's family's satisfaction, and to the public's satisfaction.
cynic
09-16-2011, 06:27 PM
I noticed a mistake with the lines starting on the wrong side of the body, my apologies.
ETA: The original post has now been corrected with the image below.
http://i56.tinypic.com/21lk906.jpg
cynic
09-16-2011, 06:32 PM
...brings me back to comments concerning the fact that Rebecca actually has a LOT of injuries, many of which have not been explained.
That's why they haven't attempted any sort of reconstruction, I'm sure.
I would like to ask if I can have your permission to pass this on to some other people? It is a fantastic visual and makes some VERY good points!!
Of course you can.
cynic
09-16-2011, 06:53 PM
To tell you the truth, I expected this to be attached to the AR. I thought they always did a drawing of marks, scars, etc.
Yes there is, it was withheld for some reason.
So what do you make of your work?
I’m still going through it.
How could she have that posterior horizontal component without previous manual strangulation?
She would have had to hang herself twice to accomplish that, the first time unsuccessfully and with the knot entirely anterior and no upward torque....no?
Keep in mind that the distance is only 1/8 of an inch, even a slight roll of the ligature might accomplish that.
And the other, finer marks noted, separated by areas of pallor. What is your take on all this?
That’s still a work in progress.
Do you think the marks on her forehead could be from contact with the railing, especially given the lack of bruising associated with them? Unlike the subgaleal hemorrhages
Not likely, IMO. I think there would be very significant abrasions and I can’t envision there not being serious injuries to RN’s nose.
I see those marks as coming from the tree.
jjenny
09-16-2011, 07:49 PM
BBM
Yeah, that is exactly what they said in the press conference. I have a problem with the discrepancies. At 29:26 into the PC (the video is on the Sheriff's wesite page), LE said that the balcony doors were open at the time of the incident.
I have a big problem with the discrepancies too. So far LE has claimed that both doors were opened at the time of the incident, the official photo by the police officer shows only one door opened, we have a statement from Lt. N. that one door was opened or closed depending on the breeze but the other one was bolted. We also know a police officer got on the balcony before the foot print photos were taken. So what are we to believe, then?
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 08:52 PM
Yessirree - Sgt. Nemeth (SDSO homicide unit) stated in the Sept. 2 PC that "these doors were open at the time of the incident".
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html
Yet, recently, we've been told this by Lt. Nesbit:
"Photo two – showing both doors closed – we believe the door on the left was blown closed by a breeze; the door on the right was secured with a bolt-type lock into the floor," Nesbit continued.
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death
If the door on the right was secured with a "bolt-type lock into the floor" - how does this explain Sgt. Nemeth's PC statement that "these doors were open at the time of the incident"????
I'm still waiting for an official explanation as to why both balcony doors were closed when they were filmed @ ~ 4:45 p.m. on July 13, 2011 by a News 8 media helicopter, especially since Sgt. Nemeth stated in the Sept. 2 PC that "these doors were open at the time of the incident".
If "these doors were open at the time of the incident", who closed them prior to the News 8 helicopter footage that was taken @ ~ 4:45 p.m.on July 13, before the crime scene was processed?
If the SDSO wants the victim's family & the public to have faith in their investigative findings, then the SDSO needs to explain these discrepancies (and also answer other questions) to the victim's family's satisfaction, and to the public's satisfaction.
So, now LE has given us proof that what they found the first day, was incorrect, or was somehow changed prior to the area being processed. Doesn't sound like a good scenario either way imho.
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 08:53 PM
That's why they haven't attempted any sort of reconstruction, I'm sure.
Of course you can.
I thank you my friend!!! Home run, out of the park Cynic!!!!!!:woohoo::great:
Curious Me
09-16-2011, 09:12 PM
cynic, you are awesome!:applause:
What's your take on these findings then?
Why didn't RZ's tongue protrude as often happens in a hanging death?
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 09:27 PM
I am looking very forward to the radio show and more of Cynic's great knowledge on Sunday night!! Thanks Cynic and Tricia!!
sdcali
09-16-2011, 09:48 PM
I have a big problem with the discrepancies too. So far LE has claimed that both doors were opened at the time of the incident, the official photo by the police officer shows only one door opened, we have a statement from Lt. N. that one door was opened or closed depending on the breeze but the other one was bolted. We also know a police officer got on the balcony before the foot print photos were taken. So what are we to believe, then?
Since LE said that the doors were open at the time of the incident.
He has not said that they were that way when LE arrived--in other words, they know the doors were both open when Rebecca went off of the balcony. What evidence have they not shared?
How do they know that? Who closed and bolted the one door? How did the second door close?
sorrell skye
09-16-2011, 09:59 PM
cynic, you are awesome!:applause:
What's your take on these findings then?
Why didn't RZ's tongue protrude as often happens in a hanging death?
I agree that Cynic is totally awesome! I think I may have a crush on him. :blushing: C'mon - you all know I'm not the only one!
And while I'm not Cynic, I'll attempt to answer your question about the tongue, based on my knowledge of bony landmarks & human anatomy.
The hyoid bone provides the anchor point for the tongue.
In hanging/strangulation deaths where there is no gag, when the hyoid bone is broken, the tongue is released from its anchor point and protrudes from the mouth.
I think the reason that RZ's tongue didn't protrude from her mouth is because of the tee shirt being stuffed into her mouth.
ETA: and also because only the left arm of the hyoid bone was fractured.
jjenny
09-16-2011, 10:02 PM
Since LE said that the doors were open at the time of the incident.
He has not said that they were that way when LE arrived--in other words, they know the doors were both open when Rebecca went off of the balcony. What evidence have they not shared?
How do they know that? Who closed and bolted the one door? How did the second door close?
According to Lt. N the second door got closed because of the breeze.
I have no clue what the deal is with the door that was bolted, because no way Lt. N could blame the breeze for closing of that one.
sorrell skye
09-16-2011, 10:32 PM
I wonder if RZ's fingernails were scraped, or clipped & preserved?
I've read the AR over & over & over, and I can find no reference to her fingernails being scraped, or clipped & preserved, so I'm inclined to believe that they weren't.
I've read other ARs where the victim's fingernails were scraped, and clipped & preserved.
But there is absolutely no mention of that procedure being done during RZ's autopsy.
If her fingernails weren't scraped, or clipped & preserved & tested for DNA, how can it be said with any "ironclad" certainty that she didn't fight against an attacker, or that she wasn't murdered?
Fingernail scrapings can yield valuable DNA evidence, but it doesn't seem that it was collected in this case, according to the AR.
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 10:40 PM
I just rewatched the PC. Several things jumped out at me. LE said that they "painstakingly" studied the bindings while they were still on Rebecca's wrists in order to reinact it for the video. The ME said that he is the one that took the rope off of her wrists and verified that was the way it was applied.
They said that paint was found on her hands , torso and the rope piece around her neck. That means that she had to have tied her hands and feet prior to painting the message. Even if she had slipped her hand out to paint the message, wouldn't it make sense that at least a small amount may have transferred to the wrist bindings?
Then she hops or shuffles back over to the foot of the bed to drop her paint brush (why there? why not drop it by the door?) and puts the noose portion over her head --getting paint only on the part of the rope she puts it around her neck. What about the shirt that went over the rope?? No paint at all on it? Then hops to the balcony? And of course, the one hop to the edge on her tippy toes.
LE said that when they first arrived on the scene, both balcony doors were open. I believe they were referring to CPD and not SDSO.
Bye the way, even though I responded to this post already, I forgot to thank you for it!!! Kudos to you my dear!!
And Sorrell Skye, you are awesome!! Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us!!!
sdcali
09-16-2011, 11:07 PM
I wonder if RZ's fingernails were scraped, or clipped & preserved?
I've read the AR over & over & over, and I can find no reference to her fingernails being scraped, or clipped & preserved, so I'm inclined to believe that they weren't.
I've read other ARs where the victim's fingernails were scraped, and clipped & preserved.
But there is absolutely no mention of that procedure being done during RZ's autopsy.
If her fingernails weren't scraped, or clipped & preserved & tested for DNA, how can it be said with any "ironclad" certainty that she didn't fight against an attacker, or that she wasn't murdered?
Fingernail scrapings can yield valuable DNA evidence, but it doesn't seem that it was collected in this case, according to the AR.
And there was blood noted on her fingers in the AR. How did they account for that??
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 11:27 PM
And there was blood noted on her fingers in the AR. How did they account for that??
Easy one. They didn't!!!:innocent:
sorrell skye
09-16-2011, 11:37 PM
And there was blood noted on her fingers in the AR. How did they account for that??
The AR never accounted for the blood on her fingers - yet another unanswered question.
Was the blood on her fingers collected & tested to determine to whom it might belong?
I doubt it, since it wasn't noted in the AR.
IMO, the blood on her fingers seems to have been nothing more than a cursory notation in the AR (as if it was assumed, without testing, that the source of the blood was RZ), and not as something that might have had potential significant evidentiary value.
Unless the blood was collected & tested, there is no way to determine whether or not it was RZ's blood, or someone else's.
jjenny
09-16-2011, 11:41 PM
The AR never accounted for the blood on her fingers - yet another unanswered question.
Was the blood on her fingers collected & tested to determine to whom it might belong?
I doubt it, since it wasn't noted in the AR.
IMO, the blood on her fingers seems to have been nothing more than a cursory notation in the AR (as if it was assumed, without testing, that the source of the blood was RZ), and not as something that might have had potential significant evidentiary value.
Unless the blood was collected & tested, there is no way to determine whether or not it was RZ's blood, or someone else's.
Blood or no blood-who cares? It's all ironclad, don't you know.
I am still amazed they haven't found anyone's DNA or fingerprints except RN's. As if no one else had ever been to that room. Apparently no one else had ever touched that rope either.
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 11:49 PM
Blood or no blood-who cares? It's all ironclad, don't you know.
I am still amazed they haven't found anyone's DNA or fingerprints except RN's. As if no one else had ever been to that room. Apparently no one else had ever touched that rope either.
And what is so flippen strange, is that there had to be thousands of prints within that roo,. Anyone that ever stayed in the room, cleanted the room, moved the bed, turned on/off the light, went on to the balcony, opened, closed, locked or unlocked the doors and bolt to the balcony, opened and closed the door. That is just to name a few.
sorrell skye
09-16-2011, 11:50 PM
Blood or no blood-who cares? It's all ironclad, don't you know.
I am still amazed they haven't found anyone's DNA or fingerprints except RN's. As if no one else had ever been to that room. Apparently no one else had ever touched that rope either.
Or touched those kitchen knives, or paint brushes, or tube of paint, or plastic trash bag, or the blue tee shirt, or the leg of the foot board, or the balcony railing or balcony doors.
Was the white wicker chair tested for fingerprints or DNA? Oh - never mind. It wasn't marked as evidence, even though it was overturned in a crime scene room.
sorrell skye
09-16-2011, 11:56 PM
Come to think of it - what about the bed linens on the bed in the crime scene bedroom? Were they collected & tested for DNA?
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 11:59 PM
And yet this is an ironclad, open and shut case. :maddening: I really just can't understand how 4 LE agencies could think that people wouldn't question this. This was big news the entire 7 weeks they were 'investigating'.
Problem now is, that even if they try to gather more evidence from the scene, it will probably not be able to be introduced in a court, as it has been so long and a defendant could claim contamination, manufacturing of evidence, etc. etc. etc.
deanna82437
09-17-2011, 12:03 AM
This is beginning to have many similarities to another recent case regarding time and evidence being lost and/or contaminated. :banghead: :sick:
justice be served
09-17-2011, 12:25 AM
And yet this is an ironclad, open and shut case. :maddening: I really just can't understand how 4 LE agencies could think that people wouldn't question this. This was big news the entire 7 weeks they were 'investigating'.
Problem now is, that even if they try to gather more evidence from the scene, it will probably not be able to be introduced in a court, as it has been so long and a defendant could claim contamination, manufacturing of evidence, etc. etc. etc.
BBM
Sunnie, that is such an unfair truth which is so very hard to swallow. However, the energy I have seen from the good people posting on this forum will finally make this case prevail unlike others in the past - at least I hope for that.
SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 12:32 AM
BBM
Sunnie, that is such an unfair truth which is so very hard to swallow. However, the energy I have seen from the good people posting on this forum will finally make this case prevail unlike others in the past - at least I hope for that.
I hope so Justice!! If we all work together, we have a chance!!
Peaceful
09-17-2011, 03:11 AM
I also thought they always did a drawing & was surprised to see there wasn't one attached to the AR.
I'm even more surprised being I am certain they did provide one for MS but not for RZ. I'll look for the link.
cynic
09-17-2011, 04:34 PM
Those hemorrhages at the sternocleidomastoid muscles are waaaaayyyyy too low to be attributed to the ligature, and there is no corresponding furrow over or near those hemorrhages AND the fracture of the cricoid!!! If it were attributed to the rope slipping, there should be corresponding abrasion of the skin, which is not noted.
As the ligature tightened it would essentially “grip” the upper portion of the SCM (among other things,) then as the body jerked down and away from the ligature there would be a considerable stretch on that muscle group and likely be the cause of that trauma.
The cricoid fracture is very suspicious, ITA.
cynic
09-17-2011, 04:57 PM
What's your take on these findings then?
“The left sternocleidomastoid muscle has a 4-3/4 x 1-3/4 inch area of hemorrhage extending from the clavicle with softening and abundant hemorrhage within the muscle. On the right there is similar hemorrhage measuring 2 x 1-1/4 inch at the clavicle. Along the medial edge of the right sternocleidomastoid muscle, there are a 1 x ¼ inch hemorrhage (inferior, near the clavicle) and a ¼ inch diameter hemorrhage (more superior.)”
This is serious trauma to the left and right SCM muscles, and it indicates that there was a pulling force from above. This combined with the furrow marks, including the classic inverted V means that there is no way that RN fell head first for the entire distance. Had she done that, the trauma would have been on the other end of the SCM muscles.
It could still mean that she rotated in mid-air into an upright position before the running out of rope, although when all the evidence is considered, I do not believe that she could have gone over head first and sustain the injuries that are noted in the AR.
“There is a 3/8 inch blush of hemorrhage on the inferior portion of the left thyrohyoid muscle.”
“There is also a fracture of the base of the left superior horn of the thyroid cartilage, 5/8 inches from its tip.”
These two injuries I find to be the most consistent with the placement of the ligature.
The most suspicious injuries in RN’s neck, IMO are:
“There is a ¼ inch diameter hemorrhage of the left cricothyroid muscle and corresponding purple discoloration of the tracheal mucosa. There is a corresponding left cricoid fracture anteriorly. It is curved, non-displaced, and is situated approximately 1/8 inch from the anterior midline.”
This is by far the most suspicious injury
“There is a hemorrhagic fracture of the left arm of the hyoid bone with downward displacement of the distal end. The fracture is 3/8 inches from the tip. There is a small amount of hemorrhage associated with it.”
I also find the very extensive nature of the petechiae to be suspicious if it was all as a result of long drop hanging. There should have been more than enough constricting force to close off venous and arterial blood flow to RN’s head instantly. Petechiae are common and plentiful when only venous blood flow is constricted and arterial blood flow to the head continues.
cynic
09-17-2011, 05:25 PM
Further, with respect to the extensive petechiae noted in the AR.
The long drop hanging should have cut venous and arterial flow to RN’s head instantly, preventing congestion and the formation of petechiae.
It has been reported that a tension of 33 lb on the ligature will occlude the trachea, a tension of 4.4 lb will compress the jugular veins, a tension of 8- 10 lb will occlude the carotid arteries and tension of 60 lb will compress the vertebral arteries.
Textbook Of Forensic Medicine And Toxicology: Principles And Practice, Krishan Vij MD, page 161
Another thing, by the way, the rope expert mentioned to me before he went out during the break was that the rope, when it went over the railing, there would have been 600 pounds of pressure when she hung there…
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/08/ddhln.01.html (http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/08/ddhln.01.html)
IWannaKnow
09-20-2011, 09:58 AM
Cynic. Thank you so much for your interview of Dr. Wecht and your careful attention to reaching answers for our questions. You did a superb job.
I especially want to thank you for sticking with the question about the cricoid fracture and the lack of abrasions. I noticed that was not conclusively answered, the conversation went to the ligature furrow again. However, according to the AR, the widest point in the furrow was 1" on the left side on a 7/16" rope. He did not really provide an answer for how that fracture could have occurred without corresponding signs on the skin.
sorrell skye
09-24-2011, 12:32 AM
Hello friends! I've been trying to make sense of some things over the past few days. I want to share some thoughts that have occurred to me that are related to the injuries to RZ's scalp & how they may (or may not) coincide with the information recently released in the SWs. I apologize in advance if the following scenarios may be disturbing. I feel it's necessary to explore all possible scenarios of RZ's death if we are to arrive @ the truth.
From the AR (page 13):
"On the right superior parietal scalp there is a 2 x 1 inch subgaleal hemorrhage. On the right lateral frontal scalp there are two subgaleal hemorrhages measuring 3/4 x 1/2 inch and 1/2 x 1/4 inch. On the right lateral frontotemporal scalp, there is a 3/8 inch diameter subgaleal hemorrhage."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
We've read Dr. Wecht's statements to CBS 8 (and have also recently heard his expert commentary on Websleuth's Radio). IMO, his comments bear repeating. According to Dr. Cyril Wecht:
"A blow or blows sufficient to produce subgaleal, subscalpular hemorrhage could be sufficient for someone to be knocked out, just temporarily, not to produce any damage to the brain, not to cause any prolonged unconsciousness; but one cannot say," Dr. Wecht said. "They are clearly indicia of some kind of blunt force trauma. So, for someone to say there is no evidence whatsoever of any kind of a struggle is not correct."
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth?clienttype=printable
If the 4 subgaleal hemorrhages were the result of RZ possibly being struck by someone with a blunt instrument, these are the scenarios that make sense to me as to how the injuries may have occurred:
Since the scalp injuries were located on RZ's right scalp & the top of her head (again, speculating that RZ may have been struck by someone with a blunt instrument):
1. A left-handed person delivered the blows while directly facing her (indicating that the attacker was not concerned with being identified & intended on killing her after striking her).
2. RZ was lying down on her left side (right side of her head facing up) when she was attacked (indicating that she may have been caught by surprise while sleeping).
3. A right-handed person struck her from behind & to the right (indicating that the attacker sought the element of surprise while RZ was still awake & upright).
4. A right-handed person grabbed RZ by the hair on her left side & slammed the right side of RZ's head against a wall or some other surface 4 times (indicating rage and also the lack of fear of being ID'd because of the intention to kill her, but with the additional element of hoping to force a confession out of her for a perceived crime prior to killing her).
Point #4 above could explain item #10) clump of hair and/or item #14) hair in the search warrants (if the hair that was collected was RZ's hair).
http://www.10news.com/pdf/29245478/detail.html
As always, the above post is only an opinion, and is based upon currently available information, and is not intended to point blame @ anyone in particular.
SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 12:54 AM
Wow!! Between Sorrell and Cynic, with some Iwannaknow thrown in for good measure, we have a variable gold mine of information at our fingertips!!
Sorrell, I hate to say it, but I see a good argument for your #4 above, as this murder has rage and anger written all over it.
Per lividity... I know others have more expertise on this, but just some info since we were discussing it in other threads.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:sgG9SpCsF1IJ:www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf+lividity+position+of+body&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjnwKTboSUw8jiNmpsEGZ_Tq5w5RSAwYCsO0uP1 qiKUkDIvv9PwdIZPudWDuqHmbKCpQNZR4dgmtM06RyJj0rZCfL vDn9BapwBCW-I4m36vIYccAt71VwzRFf4n3mfwwrgk0JAn&sig=AHIEtbTMsYhvcK4iEO-7cmuQok9bIWTozg
University of Dundee: Department of Forensic Medicine [pdf]
(http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf)
Within intense areas of lividity, the accumulated blood may rupture small vessels to produce a scattering of punctate purple-black haemorrhages between one and several millimetres in diameter. These haemorrhages are seen most commonly over the lower legs of victims of suicidal hanging with complete suspension. These haemorrhagic loci should be distinguished from ante-mortem petechial haemorrhages.
Lividity developing in the viscera of a body lying prone and resulting in a purplish congestion of organs usually found pale at autopsy can be disconcerting to those unaccustomed to these changes.
Most texts agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity at around 12 hours post mortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed. Adelson (Ref. 12 at p. 168) states that lividity "ordinarily becomes perceptible within 1/2 to 4 hours after death, is well developed within the next 3 or 4 hours, and attains its maximum degree between 8 and 12 hours post mortem". Polson (Ref. 10 at p. 13) states that "it varies in its time of onset, is ordinarily apparent within 1/2 to 2 hours after death, and its complete development is attained in from 6 to 12 hours". Camps (Ref. 6 at p. 81) states that it "first appears about 20-30 minutes after death as dull red patches which deepen, increase in intensity, and coalesce to form, within 6 to 10 hours, an extensive area of reddish-purple colour". Spitz and Fisher (Ref.
14 at p. 17) state that its "formation begins immediately after death, but it may not be perceptible for as much as two hours. It is usually well developed within 4 hours and reaches a maximum beween 8 and 12 hours. ... After 8 to 12 hours lividity becomes "fixed" and will remain where it originally formed". Simpson (Ref. 11 at p. 9) states that "it commences to develop within an hour or so of death, becoming marked in 5 or 6 hours".... <much more>This probably doesn't answer any more complex questions of Rebecca being moved after death, but before lividity was completely fixed.
Old reference but a few paragraphs down on page 409 it talks about "if the position of a body is altered within a few hours after death" ... patches of lividity which have appeared may begin to disappear and develop on the most dependent surface of the body. If lividty is well developed, changing the position will not significantly alter it. (paraphrasing)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Mja6AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA409&lpg=PA409&dq=lividity+position+of+body&source=bl&ots=GUrdGWlt-y&sig=4sXqakZtGjbqgviKIBEHt_CNdbM&hl=en&ei=2ayATufjNePWiALt8bG8Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=lividity%20position%20of%20body&f=false
greenpalm
09-26-2011, 02:08 PM
Per lividity... I know others have more expertise on this, but just some info since we were discussing it in other threads.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:sgG9SpCsF1IJ:www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf+lividity+position+of+body&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjnwKTboSUw8jiNmpsEGZ_Tq5w5RSAwYCsO0uP1 qiKUkDIvv9PwdIZPudWDuqHmbKCpQNZR4dgmtM06RyJj0rZCfL vDn9BapwBCW-I4m36vIYccAt71VwzRFf4n3mfwwrgk0JAn&sig=AHIEtbTMsYhvcK4iEO-7cmuQok9bIWTozg
University of Dundee: Department of Forensic Medicine [pdf]
(http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf)
This probably doesn't answer any more complex questions of Rebecca being moved after death, but before lividity was completely fixed.
Thanks for bringing this to this thread. It's not always clear to me where particular info is most useful. :)
Morag
09-26-2011, 02:17 PM
From the daily beast/newsweek article:
She’s a beautiful girl, and she had this disturbing raised prominence on her upper right forehead.
I'm presuming that she had what might be called a bump. Does a lump like that continue to expand post-mortem?
sdcali
10-06-2011, 07:30 PM
Hey sleuthers,
Here are a couple of interesting reads I found today. The entire site is very informative, but these two pages are especially interesting as it pertains to Rebecca.
The definitions of contusions and abraisions are helpful to in deciphering the AR.
http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=103&Itemid=120
http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=50&Itemid=76 (http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=50&Itemid=76)
sdcali
10-06-2011, 11:05 PM
While re-reading the AR, there was a Detective Tsuida (I think I spelled it right) that requested to attend Rebecca's autopsy, but didn't. Started me thinking about why he/she made that request but wasn't there. My curiosity if piqued.
deanna82437
10-07-2011, 11:32 AM
While re-reading the AR, there was a Detective Tsuida (I think I spelled it right) that requested to attend Rebecca's autopsy, but didn't. Started me thinking about why he/she made that request but wasn't there. My curiosity if piqued.
She requested the following:
Warrant #11-164 = Angela Tsuida, SDSO, dated 8/24/2011 for AT&T Wireless phone records
Warrant #11-165 - 8/24/2011 - Angela Tsuida, SDSO Cellco Partnership, dba Verizon Wireless phone records
SunnieRN
10-08-2011, 06:00 AM
http://www.lodinews.com/news/article_3b31b341-d617-593a-bf62-0d7174048e6d.html
Article on Dr. Lucas.
coastal
10-08-2011, 01:23 PM
http://www.lodinews.com/news/article_3b31b341-d617-593a-bf62-0d7174048e6d.html
Article on Dr. Lucas.
Thanks, SunnieRN. Some interesting excerpts:
“He could talk about anything,” she said. “He could explain physics to a 7-year-old and they would get it.”
Really?
(Lucas said) "DNA tests don’t take a matter of hours, and we don’t catch the bad guys.”
Clearly.
And finally, some good news:
Lucas could not elaborate on the Zahau case, saying aspects of it are still under investigation.
CalElliot
10-08-2011, 03:42 PM
While re-reading the AR, there was a Detective Tsuida (I think I spelled it right) that requested to attend Rebecca's autopsy, but didn't. Started me thinking about why he/she made that request but wasn't there. My curiosity if piqued.
More about Tsuida here:
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_59313490-25d8-5828-9578-dc321738ad9d.html
http://www.ramonasentinel.com/2008/11/12/murder-trial-begins/
sdcali
10-08-2011, 07:09 PM
More about Tsuida here:
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_59313490-25d8-5828-9578-dc321738ad9d.html
http://www.ramonasentinel.com/2008/11/12/murder-trial-begins/
Thanks, Cal. I hope that Detective Tsuida's interest in this case continues. She may sense and believe the same things we do about Rebecca's death.
SunnieRN
10-09-2011, 06:03 PM
More about Tsuida here:
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_59313490-25d8-5828-9578-dc321738ad9d.html
http://www.ramonasentinel.com/2008/11/12/murder-trial-begins/
Anipped from the NC times article:
Dr. Jonathan Lucas, a forensic pathologist with the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office, said during an autopsy on the baby, investigators discovered internal wounds both fresh and old.
I am glad Dr. Lucas got this one right!! Poor baby, TWA!!
Anipped from the NC times article:
Dr. Jonathan Lucas, a forensic pathologist with the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office, said during an autopsy on the baby, investigators discovered internal wounds both fresh and old.
I am glad Dr. Lucas got this one right!! Poor baby, TWA!!
horrible, sick, demented. I noticed it took a year until they finally pressed charges on that thing- I refuse to classify that animal as a man.
cynic
11-15-2011, 08:03 PM
Here are a few visual aids. I hope to have some more soon.
I think it should be abundantly clear that I am not an artist, LOL, but this should give a reasonable approximation of what is being described in the autopsy report.
:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nhm3br.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2q3w474.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/wgz19i.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/148dbtu.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/j96hyc.jpg
I didn't quite keep my promise of "soon," but I have more below.
cynic
11-15-2011, 08:10 PM
http://i44.tinypic.com/f3i1jd.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/bi1105.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/126dwnp.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/r7ncic.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/f2shza.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/28m03sg.jpg
(Special thanks to Sorrell Skye for help with this)
cynic
11-15-2011, 08:23 PM
Note that while the autopsy report speaks of numerous abrasions to the back of RZ, other than one very small abrasion on the back of each arm, there are no injuries to the back of her arms.
How is this possible? If her arms were tied behind her back at the time that numerous abrasions were created on her back, how did the arms escape injury – they would be the first point of contact?
Furthermore, her arms would also have, presumably, shielded her back from some of the injuries, most notably the abrasions near her right armpit and the long abrasions on the right thoracolumbar region of her back.
gypsychild
11-15-2011, 08:42 PM
Note that while the autopsy reports speaks of numerous abrasions to the back of RZ, other than one very small abrasion on the back of each arm, there are no injuries to the back of her arms.
How is this possible? If her arms were tied behind her back at the time that numerous abrasions were inflicted on her back, how did the arms escape injury – they would be the first point of contact?
Furthermore, her arms would also have, presumably, shielded her back from some of the injuries, most notably the abrasions near her right armpit and the long abrasions on the right thoracolumbar region of her back.
I did not even think of this but an excellent point! Her arms SHOULD have shielded her back partially from the abrasions if they are in fact from hanging by the cactus'. So the back injuries could not be from when she was bound and hanging....
thebes
11-16-2011, 10:21 AM
Note that while the autopsy report speaks of numerous abrasions to the back of RZ, other than one very small abrasion on the back of each arm, there are no injuries to the back of her arms.
How is this possible? If her arms were tied behind her back at the time that numerous abrasions were created on her back, how did the arms escape injury – they would be the first point of contact?
Furthermore, her arms would also have, presumably, shielded her back from some of the injuries, most notably the abrasions near her right armpit and the long abrasions on the right thoracolumbar region of her back.
This is a brilliant point! I wonder if she didn't get those vertical, parallel abrasions while sitting/struggling in the overturned white wicker chair.
And thank you so much for these pictures - they are very helpful!
defense101
11-16-2011, 10:54 AM
Amazing Cynic, thanks so much for the visual, it really shows the impossiblity of a straight jump off the balcony hanging and the injuries she sustained. So much work and I appreciate it greatly!
coastal
11-16-2011, 02:05 PM
Amazing Cynic, thanks so much for the visual, it really shows the impossiblity of a straight jump off the balcony hanging and the injuries she sustained. So much work and I appreciate it greatly!
Me, too.
Thebes, excellent idea, that the abrasions on Rebecca's back may be the result of her struggling, bound, in the wicker chair. I tried to imagine what else could cause such wounds, and all I came up with is contact with a stucco wall, or perhaps concrete. Wicker works better for me, though.
freespeech
09-09-2012, 01:20 AM
Reviewing Rebecca's AR, and I noticed this (on page 10, under POSTMORTEM CHANGES):
There is also red livor mortis on the upper chest.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
Another Theory
Rebecca must have been placed prone for some time after she was murdered in order for blood to settle in her upper chest.
I suspect that they put her in the white wicker chair with her legs taped to chair and then strangled her from behind with a garrote type ligature. While they choked her the chair tipped and fell backwards so they left her dead like that for sometime. That's why she had livor mortis in her back but not in her legs. That would also explain why her legs were in rigor mortis with her knees bent and apart.
Sometime later they decided to hang her to hide the garrote ligature mark. They untapped her legs and tipped the chair on it's side. She spilled out onto the red blanket and they rolled her onto her stomach and hogtied tied her hands and feet together.
She already had lividity in her back but none in her legs. Since the lividity had not fixed it started to move to her upper chest while in the hog tie position. She probably stayed that way for some time while they figured their next move.
They tied the rope to the bed and placed the noose around her neck after placing her fingers on the bed frame, rope, knife, door frame, etc. and threw her over the balcony railing. They probably left her hanging for a short period of time to ensure the the heavier rope ligature obliterated the thinner garrote ligature mark. They then cut her down and staged the yard for Adam's CPR performance. Imoo.
freespeech
09-09-2012, 01:49 AM
Here are a few visual aids. I hope to have some more soon.
I think it should be abundantly clear that I am not an artist, LOL, but this should give a reasonable approximation of what is being described in the autopsy report.
:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nhm3br.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2q3w474.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/wgz19i.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/148dbtu.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/j96hyc.jpg
The ligature mark is too low for a hanging. The weight of her body and the long drop of 9 feet and 2 inches would have pulled the rope up and under her chin. The tightly tied blue tee shirt kept the rope from moving up and under her chin. The tee shirt held the rope in place to cover the thinner ligature mark that showed she died from garrote strangulation, IMO.
freespeech
09-09-2012, 01:52 AM
Me, too.
Thebes, excellent idea, that the abrasions on Rebecca's back may be the result of her struggling, bound, in the wicker chair. I tried to imagine what else could cause such wounds, and all I came up with is contact with a stucco wall, or perhaps concrete. Wicker works better for me, though.
I totally agree with this post. The back abrasions were sustained when she struggled in the chair while they strangled her.
freespeech
09-09-2012, 01:40 PM
Below is a link to an autopsy report of a woman who was murdered by strangulation but staged afterwards to look like she committed suicide by hanging.
http://www.crimescene.com/suicide/evidence.autopsy.php
There are two ligatures mentioned in the report.
Ligature A, the hanging ligature, was thicker and was under her chin as would be expected from the downward thrust of her body.
Ligature B, the strangulation ligature, was thinner and lower. It encircled her throat and was over the internally damaged and crushed throat structures.
freespeech
09-09-2012, 01:57 PM
Below is a link to an autopsy report of a woman who was murdered by strangulation but staged afterwards to look like she committed suicide by hanging.
http://www.crimescene.com/suicide/evidence.autopsy.php
There are two ligatures mentioned in the report.
Ligature A, the hanging ligature, was thicker and was under her chin as would be expected from the downward thrust of her body.
Ligature B, the strangulation ligature, was thinner and lower. It encircled her throat and was over the internally damaged and crushed throat structures.
Here is an additional link that discusses some differences between strangulation and hanging.
http://www.ahcmedia.com/public/samples/emr.pdf
Here is a really good article by U.S. Department of Justice that shows crime scene analysis guidelines.
http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/deathinvestigationNIJ.pdf
freespeech
09-10-2012, 11:29 AM
Another Theory
Rebecca must have been placed prone for some time after she was murdered in order for blood to settle in her upper chest.
I suspect that they put her in the white wicker chair with her legs taped to chair and then strangled her from behind with a garrote type ligature. While they choked her the chair tipped and fell backwards so they left her dead like that for sometime. That's why she had livor mortis in her back but not in her legs. That would also explain why her legs were in rigor mortis with her knees bent and apart.
Sometime later they decided to hang her to hide the garrote ligature mark. They untapped her legs and tipped the chair on it's side. She spilled out onto the red blanket and they rolled her onto her stomach and hogtied tied her hands and feet together.
She already had lividity in her back but none in her legs. Since the lividity had not fixed it started to move to her upper chest while in the hog tie position. She probably stayed that way for some time while they figured their next move.
They tied the rope to the bed and placed the noose around her neck after placing her fingers on the bed frame, rope, knife, door frame, etc. and threw her over the balcony railing. They probably left her hanging for a short period of time to ensure the the heavier rope ligature obliterated the thinner garrote ligature mark. They then cut her down and staged the yard for Adam's CPR performance. Imoo.
Alternate Theory
Regarding the livor mortis in Rebecca's chest: This could have also occurred after she was cut down. We don't really know what time that was because all we have is Adam's word on that.
If she was hogtied which I suspect she was and Adam cut the hogtie then she would have been prone for that. There was an early article that stated she was found face down. Thought I saved the link but cannot find that statement now. Does anyone remember that? The original article seems to have been scrubbed.
If she was found face down and turned over then the blood would have redistributed to he back except the potion that remained in her chest. However, L.E. never addressed the livor mortis in the chest. They also never mentioned any livor mortis in her legs upon arrival at the scene.
Since the chest livor mortis appeared to have been fixed there I feel it would push the time of her death closer to 1:00AM. If her time of death were earlier than that would totally overturn the suicide story, no?
freespeech
09-10-2012, 01:50 PM
Alternate Theory
Regarding the livor mortis in Rebecca's chest: This could have also occurred after she was cut down. We don't really know what time that was because all we have is Adam's word on that.
If she was hogtied which I suspect she was and Adam cut the hogtie then she would have been prone for that. There was an early article that stated she was found face down. Thought I saved the link but cannot find that statement now. Does anyone remember that? The original article seems to have been scrubbed.
If she was found face down and turned over then the blood would have redistributed to he back except the potion that remained in her chest. However, L.E. never addressed the livor mortis in the chest. They also never mentioned any livor mortis in her legs upon arrival at the scene.
Since the chest livor mortis appeared to have been fixed there I feel it would push the time of her death closer to 1:00AM. If her time of death were earlier than that would totally overturn the suicide story, no?
I found the article that stated Rebecca was found face down. I wonder if it was a mistake. It is possible that it happened though.
Subsequent reports do not mention whether she was supine or prone when found. It is left to the reader's imagination to imagine that she was found face up. It is also possible that Adam accessed the main house kitchen to retrieve a knife to cut the hogtie.
"...An autopsy report finished Thursday is under seal. So is the 911 transcript and 911 call. That call was made by Jonah Shacknai’s brother Adam Shacknai. Adam reported Nalepa then hanging; when police responded she was no longer hanging but found face down...And how did she get into the condition in which she was found? Her hands were tied behind her back, her feet were tied together. She was found unclothed, face down in the mansion’s outside courtyard, not hanging from a balcony as reported in the 911 call."
http://news.lalate.com/2011/07/16/rebecca-nalepa-death-in-jonah-shacknai-mansion-prompts-new-search-warrants/
Also, I assumed that the hemorrhages to the strap muscles were caused by hanging. However, this article showed that is found in strangulation.
http://www.ahcmedia.com/public/samples/emr.pdf
mittymick
09-13-2012, 05:46 PM
Another Theory
Rebecca must have been placed prone for some time after she was murdered in order for blood to settle in her upper chest.
I suspect that they put her in the white wicker chair with her legs taped to chair and then strangled her from behind with a garrote type ligature. While they choked her the chair tipped and fell backwards so they left her dead like that for sometime. That's why she had livor mortis in her back but not in her legs. That would also explain why her legs were in rigor mortis with her knees bent and apart.
Sometime later they decided to hang her to hide the garrote ligature mark. They untapped her legs and tipped the chair on it's side. She spilled out onto the red blanket and they rolled her onto her stomach and hogtied tied her hands and feet together.
She already had lividity in her back but none in her legs. Since the lividity had not fixed it started to move to her upper chest while in the hog tie position. She probably stayed that way for some time while they figured their next move.
They tied the rope to the bed and placed the noose around her neck after placing her fingers on the bed frame, rope, knife, door frame, etc. and threw her over the balcony railing. They probably left her hanging for a short period of time to ensure the the heavier rope ligature obliterated the thinner garrote ligature mark. They then cut her down and staged the yard for Adam's CPR performance. Imoo.
Excellent synopsis freespeech! I can totally see that happening the way you described. It's way more probable than the cockamamy scenario SDSO want us all to believe.
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