View Full Version : The Rope and the knots
elfie
09-11-2011, 02:28 PM
Please feel free to discuss anything about the rope in this thread. Also please bring over your previous comments from the general threads!
cali_mommy
09-11-2011, 06:12 PM
Has it ever been stated if the rope had been seen by anyone else before this tragedy?? Who purchased it? Since the home was so close to the water I am assuming it would be very common in that area.
IWannaKnow
09-12-2011, 12:42 PM
If this was a new rope, which I assume it must have been to have no other DNA on it, where the heck was the package it came in? If it sat on the garage shelf without a package, it should have been covered in dust and perhaps had some remnant of DNA from the person who took it out of the package and put it on the shelf.
scorekeeper
09-12-2011, 12:54 PM
I know we previously discussed how she used all the rope and had perfectly cut the correct lenght for tieing to the bed and her neck. I don't remember if anyone said there should have been any "fraying" pieces in the room. I also wonder did they analyze the 2 knives found in the room to see if they were really used to cut the rope?
Also, the knife on the outside ground...was it tested for DNA?
TorisMom003
09-12-2011, 02:06 PM
Score, I did bring up the missing rope fragments on the carpet in the guest bedroom. There should be red rope fibers wherever the rope was cut. If it was cut in the garage, I would expect to see them there. If the rope was cut in the guest bedroom, I would expect to see them there. I looked closely at all of the photos that LE released and could not find a single red rope fiber anywhere, not even on either of the knives. Odd, no?
sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 02:48 PM
If this was a new rope, which I assume it must have been to have no other DNA on it, where the heck was the package it came in? If it sat on the garage shelf without a package, it should have been covered in dust and perhaps had some remnant of DNA from the person who took it out of the package and put it on the shelf.
Good point about the dust, IWK! If the rope wasn't new, and had been stored on the garage shelf, dust would have collected on it.
Also - since the mansion is beachfront, if the rope had been on the garage shelf for an extended period of time, it would have salt & mineral residue on it from the ocean air. If the rope was used, it would have salt & mineral residue on it from the ocean water.
About the packaging materials - if the rope was brand new, where is the plastic or paper (with the label) that wrapped it? Where is the plastic spool it would have been coiled around, or the plastic ties that would have been wrapped around it to keep it tidy during shipping?
jjenny
09-12-2011, 02:53 PM
Good point about the dust, IWK! If the rope wasn't new, and had been stored on the garage shelf, dust would have collected on it.
Also - since the mansion is beachfront, if the rope had been on the garage shelf for an extended period of time, it would have salt & mineral residue on it from the ocean air. If the rope was used, it would have salt & mineral residue on it from the ocean water.
About the packaging materials - if the rope was brand new, where is the plastic or paper (with the label) that wrapped it? Where is the plastic spool it would have been coiled around, or the plastic ties that would have been wrapped around it to keep it tidy during shipping?
I also think the rope had to be new because they tested it and found no DNA on it rather than RN's. If it had been used then I presume the DNA from other people would have been on it. JS didn't know if they had that kind of rope in the house, and it appears LE wasn't at all curious where it came from (simply assuming it came from the garage because there is space where it could have been).
SunnieRN
09-12-2011, 03:06 PM
The rope. Is it the same thickness/pliability as the rope used in the video made by LE?
sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 03:41 PM
I also think the rope had to be new because they tested it and found no DNA on it rather than RN's. If it had been used then I presume the DNA from other people would have been on it. JS didn't know if they had that kind of rope in the house, and it appears LE wasn't at all curious where it came from (simply assuming it came from the garage because there is space where it could have been).
If the rope was not new, viable DNA may or may have not been on it (depending on when it might have been last handled, prior to RZ's death). DNA is very vulnerable to environmental conditions. Did LE test every millimeter of the rope - or just random segments of it - for DNA? Unless they tested every millimeter of it, they can't state with 100% accuracy that the rope contained no one else's DNA besides RZ's.
I agree with you about LE's lack of curiosity as to where the rope came from. I was astounded during the PC when it came out that there was an empty space on a garage shelf, therefore it was concluded the rope must have been on that shelf - especially since the homeowner (JS) couldn't say one way or another if the rope had been on that shelf.
SunnieRN
09-12-2011, 03:43 PM
If the rope was not new, viable DNA may or may have not been on it (depending on when it might have been last handled, prior to RZ's death). DNA is very vulnerable to environmental conditions. Did LE test every millimeter of the rope - or just random segments of it - for DNA? Unless they tested every millimeter of it, they can't state with 100% accuracy that the rope contained no one else's DNA besides RZ's.
I agree with you about LE's lack of curiosity as to where the rope came from. I was astounded during the PC when it came out that there was an empty space on a garage shelf, therefore it was concluded the rope must have been on that shelf - especially since the homeowner (JS) couldn't say one way or another if the rope had been on that shelf.
10 spots near the knots. They didn't even claim to have tested the end where Rebecca was cut down.
sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 03:46 PM
10 spots near the knots. They didn't even claim to have tested the end where Rebecca was cut down.
Thanks Sunnie!
10 spots. On a rope how long? 60 feet, IIRC?
I continue to be astounded.
ehough22
09-12-2011, 03:51 PM
I, too, am astounded at the casualness of LE admitting they don't know where the rope came from. I know, I know, there was "an empty spot in the garage". That's nothing when you're talking a possible murder weapon and the difference between murder and suicide. It's curious to me because, imo, the rope "evidence" (as far as it maybe coming from the garage) is no weaker than a lot of their evidence yet the rope is the only thing they said "possibly" about in the press conference. The murder weapon or at the very least the method of death, and they say "possibly".
Where is the bag it came in? Isn't it a problem if say, that's in the guest house? But they don't know. Perhaps it was removed from its original wrapping and stored in the plastic bag (later found in the guest room), which would explain the apparent lack of dust or dirt.
jjenny
09-12-2011, 04:00 PM
If the rope was not new, viable DNA may or may have not been on it (depending on when it might have been last handled, prior to RZ's death). DNA is very vulnerable to environmental conditions. Did LE test every millimeter of the rope - or just random segments of it - for DNA? Unless they tested every millimeter of it, they can't state with 100% accuracy that the rope contained no one else's DNA besides RZ's.
I agree with you about LE's lack of curiosity as to where the rope came from. I was astounded during the PC when it came out that there was an empty space on a garage shelf, therefore it was concluded the rope must have been on that shelf - especially since the homeowner (JS) couldn't say one way or another if the rope had been on that shelf.
It also looks to be new from the photos. Shiny and new. If it was actually used for the purpose of which it was designed for, I don't think it would be looking so new.
sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 05:14 PM
It also looks to be new from the photos. Shiny and new. If it was actually used for the purpose of which it was designed for, I don't think it would be looking so new.
I agree - when I look @ close-ups of the rope, it looks brand spanking new. There doesn't appear to be a speck of dirt on it.
So where is the packaging material? LE never said word one about that. I wonder if they even looked for the packaging material. If the rope is brand new - where was it purchased from & who purchased it & when?
Oh, but they claim their findings are "ironclad". Mmmm hmmm.
scorekeeper
09-12-2011, 07:32 PM
Score, I did bring up the missing rope fragments on the carpet in the guest bedroom. There should be red rope fibers wherever the rope was cut. If it was cut in the garage, I would expect to see them there. If the rope was cut in the guest bedroom, I would expect to see them there. I looked closely at all of the photos that LE released and could not find a single red rope fiber anywhere, not even on either of the knives. Odd, no?
Thanks, Toris. Yes, red fibers should really show up on the gray carpet but like you, I see no fibers. It doesn't even looked like the knives were used....seems so staged.
ehough22
09-12-2011, 09:54 PM
The thing about cutting rope with a knife (as opposed to scissors) is that I imagine some amount of sawing is necessary, which should produce fibers! I realize we aren't talking a very thick rope here, but presumably it's strong given its intended use and it wouldn't just break in half at the touch of a knife. There had to be some amount of sawing action, so where are those fibers? If it was cut with those knives at all.
sdcali
09-12-2011, 11:07 PM
I posted about the lack of fibers on the carpet or on the knives, too. IMO it is a glaring clue. LE did not even mention the lack of rope fibers.
If there were no fibers in the room, then it seems to me LE would search for fibers elsewhere in the house or garage (where the rope was supposedly stored). I agree with IWK about the rope having dust if it were stored in the garage and not used for some time. Did it have residue of salt water? It did appear new to me. Was there discarded packaging? My guess is it was brought to the house, brand new and out of the packaging.
Winnts
09-13-2011, 01:05 PM
Were the knives used to cur the rope serated? I would think you would need a serated knife. If so were fibers on the floor ? It could not have been a clean cut.
Was this put into evidence?
Same with when she was cut down.
Winnts
09-13-2011, 01:09 PM
Regarding the rope also, since they were trying to determine if it was a homicide or suicide, wouldn't they have tried to locate the make and model of the rope, along with what stores sold it and who had recently purchased that particular brand?
Did they pursue this avenue? If yes, what were their findings.
Winnts
09-13-2011, 01:12 PM
If the 3 knives were not similar, did they examine each knife with the cuts to see if they matched up?
For instance, when she was cut down, did it match up to that knife?
If testing showed they were all cut from the same knife then we surely don't have a suicide folks.
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 01:55 PM
Someone on another thread here, stated that someone must have tied the knots that were in the rope, prior to this event. That would have meant that 'someone' would have had to then, rolled up and placed the rope on the shelf.
How could that have been done with absolutely no dna evidence being present. Don't believe that could have happened.
As for tracing the rope, I think that would have been next to impossible, as I have bought them at boat supply stores, walmart and an rv store. All of the ones I purchased were firm and had too be secured when rolled for storage. I realize there are peobably several brands and types, but they were NOT like the one used in LE's video.
That is another thing. There were no pnotos shown of her hands secured behind her back, or the ropes on the ankles and how they were secured. Do we know if she actually had the ropes in the figure 8 type knots? Just asking.:waitasec:
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 02:10 PM
Just thought of something. The area of pallor between the two ligature marks. Can this be due to the fact that the smaller ligature mark occurred PRIOR to death, whereas the larger, higher ligature marking occurred AFTER death? Otherwise, wouldn't they both have been from the ame time without pallor being visible between?:waitasec:
SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 03:04 PM
Another thought. There was only the footprints that LE noted, on the balcony. How did Rebecca perfectly estimate and cut the rope the exact length she needed to execute a hanging that would leave her 2 1/2 feet off the ground? She certainly didn't walk onto the balcony, let the rope down and measure where to cut it. There would have been additional footprints.
I would have been fearful of the rope being too long and ending up on the ground.
jjenny
09-13-2011, 03:09 PM
Another thought. There was only the footprints that LE noted, on the balcony. How did Rebecca perfectly estimate and cut the rope the exact length she needed to execute a hanging that would leave her 2 1/2 feet off the ground? She certainly didn't walk onto the balcony, let the rope down and measure where to cut it. There would have been additional footprints.
I would have been fearful of the rope being too long and ending up on the ground.
Yes, her feet were only 2' off the ground. If she miscalculated she could have ended up on the ground and not dead. But yet she apparently made no attempt to estimate if the rope she was using would end up being too long. I find it very bizarre that the woman contemplating suicide wouldn't have gotten onto the balcony prior to actually hanging herself. I mean, what if the railing was not going to hold? And why didn't she attach the rope to the railing itself rather than the bed?
tvscum
09-15-2011, 03:03 AM
A freeze frame (http://kfmb.images.worldnow.com/images/15466715_BG2.jpg) of the afternoon helicopter video clearly showed the rope hanging from the balcony in the exact same position as the evidence photo taken earlier in the day.
"The rope was hanging over the balcony from the moment (officers) arrived on scene until they seized it later in the evening as evidence," said Lt. Nesbit.
Some online observers have questioned the evidence photos themselves.
Three photos posted on the Sheriff's web site show the French doors of the mansion's balcony in three different positions.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death
IWannaKnow
09-15-2011, 12:19 PM
The thing about cutting rope with a knife (as opposed to scissors) is that I imagine some amount of sawing is necessary, which should produce fibers! I realize we aren't talking a very thick rope here, but presumably it's strong given its intended use and it wouldn't just break in half at the touch of a knife. There had to be some amount of sawing action, so where are those fibers? If it was cut with those knives at all.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
From AR page 8, BBM~
Neck:
The free "slipping" portion of the rope which passes through the knot extends 5 inches from it and has an additional 1-1/4 inch extension of frayed fibers.
I realize that the rope would probably fray from cutting, period. But my experience has been that the more 'sawing' action is required, the more it will fray...
Additionally, from the same page, it states that the right wrist had 5 loops, the left wrist had 6. The right ankle had 6 loops and the left had 8. More on the left side on both. That would imply a right handed person did this, IMO. Wonder if Rebecca was right or left handed?
IWannaKnow
09-15-2011, 12:51 PM
Just thought of something. The area of pallor between the two ligature marks. Can this be due to the fact that the smaller ligature mark occurred PRIOR to death, whereas the larger, higher ligature marking occurred AFTER death? Otherwise, wouldn't they both have been from the ame time without pallor being visible between?:waitasec:
Indeed. How would those marks get there "separated by an area of pallor"? If it came from the rope, shouldn't those marks look the same as the ligature furrow? If the theory is that the rope "slipped" on the way down, once again, why an area of pallor? There shouldn't be any blood supply to the area....maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't think so.
Page 9:
discussing the ligature furrow:
HEAD AND NECK:
It is moderately deep, dried, and reddish-brown. Posteriorly, there is a parallel, thin, red line situated 1/8 inch below the dried ligature furrow for a distance of 2-1/2 inches and separated from it by an area of pallor.
CalElliot
09-15-2011, 04:55 PM
I tried a loose re-creation of the rope use using a 60' fluorescent red-tow rope of 3/8" diameter with yellow tube on one end with markings that can be used for only two persons or maximum 340 lbs.
I used same number of loops as indicated in autopsy; loose bindings. The tow-rope knots easily enough, though I could not come close to replicating the precision knots in the video.
The bindings seem to account for about 20 feet of rope, which would leave at least 40 feet of tow-rope to account for running from the bed, through the room, over the balcony, and the noose.
New in the bag, the tow-rope has knotted loops at both ends with no frayed ends. It is a type commonly sold for $12-$20 in boating stores in Southern California.
It is somewhat flat in the braid, not as rounded as the rope shown in the LE video; the diameter gets considerably larger and rounder toward the knots at the ends. To me looks identical to the tow-rope used at crime scene.
CalElliot
09-15-2011, 05:05 PM
By even the loosest estimates, this would leave a rather significant chunk of tow-rope unaccounted for.
Cynic, Bonepile, anyone else, based on depth of balcony and size of room, can you run the numbers from bed to noose... How many feet?
sorrell skye
09-15-2011, 05:48 PM
Valhall (Hinky Meter) calculated the depth of the balcony @ 24".
In the SDSO diagram,the bedroom measures 224" long x 109.6" wide.
The bed (which looks like a double-sized bed) moved ~7.5" from the wall.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg
Standard size for double beds is 75".
224" - 75" = 149".
So there would have been 149" from the foot of the bed (minus a couple more inches for the footboard) to the balcony threshold.
149" + 24" = 173" from the foot of the bed to the balcony railing, but you need to add a few more feet for the rope going @ an angle up over the 36" high railing.
I'm going to guestimate that roughly 17' to 19' of rope (give or take a few inches) was used going from the footboard of the bed to where it went over the top of the railing.
Curious Me
09-15-2011, 05:52 PM
Another thought. There was only the footprints that LE noted, on the balcony. How did Rebecca perfectly estimate and cut the rope the exact length she needed to execute a hanging that would leave her 2 1/2 feet off the ground? She certainly didn't walk onto the balcony, let the rope down and measure where to cut it. There would have been additional footprints.
I would have been fearful of the rope being too long and ending up on the ground.
My friend has asked me that very fact about this case. How did Rebecca estimate how much rope to cut if she did not go out to the balcony to get some calculations? How did she measure before cutting? Why aren't there more of her footprints on that balcony?
Didn't that seem extremely odd to LE?
I started thinking about if the rope was new, I would think it wouldn't be all loose and flexible like in the demo. Wouldn't a new rope be more kinked up and harder to do all that self knotting? Then, there's questions about the cutting of the rope and no evidence it was ever cut in that room. I guess LE thought we'd be satisfied with the rope demo.
CalElliot
09-15-2011, 07:49 PM
Valhall (Hinky Meter) calculated the depth of the balcony @ 24".
In the SDSO diagram,the bedroom measures 224" long x 109.6" wide.
The bed (which looks like a double-sized bed) moved ~7.5" from the wall.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg
Standard size for double beds is 75".
224" - 75" = 149".
So there would have been 149" from the foot of the bed (minus a couple more inches for the footboard) to the balcony threshold.
149" + 24" = 173" from the foot of the bed to the balcony railing, but you need to add a few more feet for the rope going @ an angle up over the 36" high railing.
I'm going to guestimate that roughly 17' to 19' of rope (give or take a few inches) was used going from the footboard of the bed to where it went over the top of the railing.
So add another 10' for drop and that leaves 10' of the tow-rope missing.
elementry
09-16-2011, 02:30 AM
My friend has asked me that very fact about this case. How did Rebecca estimate how much rope to cut if she did not go out to the balcony to get some calculations? How did she measure before cutting? Why aren't there more of her footprints on that balcony?
Didn't that seem extremely odd to LE?
I started thinking about if the rope was new, I would think it wouldn't be all loose and flexible like in the demo. Wouldn't a new rope be more kinked up and harder to do all that self knotting? Then, there's questions about the cutting of the rope and no evidence it was ever cut in that room. I guess LE thought we'd be satisfied with the rope demo.
The charitable view is that SD LE has proven themselves to be a lazy bunch, and possibly bungled the search for justice on behalf of Rebecca Zahau. The less charitable view is that they willfully forced a limited grouping of facts into a preordained conclusion, and that it wasn't mere bungling. ( Let it be added, that the most charitable view is that they happen to be right about all of this and only ne'er-do-wells and armchair Sherlocks and disgruntled family members of the deceased would disagree with LE's top of the line work on this case.)
Btw,as I may have quipped earlier: How many SD detectives does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
(16?)
ehough22
09-16-2011, 10:26 AM
While I absolutely believe this was murder and that Rebecca would have needed to have some shockingly accurate visual measuring skills, the fact remains that someone did do all this with the rope without setting foot on the balcony. I don't believe Rebecca had the skills to do it. For those who believe it was murder- what is the thinking about her killer, then? How did they accomplish this?
While I absolutely believe this was murder and that Rebecca would have needed to have some shockingly accurate visual measuring skills, the fact remains that someone did do all this with the rope without setting foot on the balcony. I don't believe Rebecca had the skills to do it. For those who believe it was murder- what is the thinking about her killer, then? How did they accomplish this?
As far as measurements this is an interesting:
Burmese units of measurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
~Burma is one of three countries that still predominantly uses a non-metric system of measure, according to the CIA Factbook.[178] The common units of measure are unique to Burma but the government web pages use both imperial units[179] and metric units.[180]~
Maybe she learned a method of measurement that makes it easier to determine lengths.
Not a landlocked country, heavily agrarian with a huge amount of rice grown both aspects assume a working relationship with ropes and knots.
It seems the traditional skills are utilized by everyone. It says the country lacks inadequate infrastructure and skills in modern technology.
To me it makes sense she would have agrarian skills acquired during her youth.
IMO
curiousjo
09-16-2011, 03:03 PM
http://www.examiner.com/us-headlines-in-national/report-questions-raised-about-rope-used-rebecca-zahau-hanging-death
"If there was no rope hanging from the balcony and the doors were closed but she was found bound, gagged and with a noose around her neck, she would not have closed the doors if she did what they said. If there is no rope hanging then she wasn't hanging there.”
I would like to see the photos the neighbor boys took.
curiousjo
09-16-2011, 04:12 PM
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death
Rope discussed in video
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 07:48 PM
While I absolutely believe this was murder and that Rebecca would have needed to have some shockingly accurate visual measuring skills, the fact remains that someone did do all this with the rope without setting foot on the balcony. I don't believe Rebecca had the skills to do it. For those who believe it was murder- what is the thinking about her killer, then? How did they accomplish this?
I have theories on how this was done, as I also believe it was murder. As for measuring the rope, I don't truly believe that Rebecca had anything at all to do with that. moo of course.
http://www.examiner.com/us-headlines-in-national/report-questions-raised-about-rope-used-rebecca-zahau-hanging-death
"If there was no rope hanging from the balcony and the doors were closed but she was found bound, gagged and with a noose around her neck, she would not have closed the doors if she did what they said. If there is no rope hanging then she wasn't hanging there.”
I would like to see the photos the neighbor boys took.
As would I. I would think/hope that LE confiscated the photos. I have heard from one person, however, that it did not happen and that people are still in have pictures of Rebecca and of the scene.
As for no rope hanging there, it truly makes one think, does it not? Who moved the rope if Rebecca truly was 'hanging' there?
jjenny
09-16-2011, 08:04 PM
I think it would be most interesting to see those photos other people took and if they got the balcony-were the doors opened or closed early in the day?
sorrell skye
09-16-2011, 08:21 PM
I think it would be most interesting to see those photos other people took and if they got the balcony-were the doors opened or closed early in the day?
Yes - it would be very interesting to see photos of the balcony doors prior to the News 8 footage @ 4:45 p.m. on Sept. 13. I hope that private citizen photos are still preserved & available.
SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 08:27 PM
I think it would be most interesting to see those photos other people took and if they got the balcony-were the doors opened or closed early in the day?
Working on trying to find those pictures, through private sources!!
sdcali
09-16-2011, 10:16 PM
So add another 10' for drop and that leaves 10' of the tow-rope missing.
plus the noose and "tail" of rope off of the noose. But there is still a considerable length missing. Wonder if LE did any measuring of the rope lengths that were at the scene?
You guys are awesome!
sdcali
09-16-2011, 11:03 PM
At the top of Page 8 of the AR, it specifies the amount of rope found around the neck.
I was not able to copy and paste that portion in here, but it should be calculated into the configurations for the length of the rope. Also, I am not sure if the 7.5 inches (the distance the bed was from the wall) was also accounted for.
I come up with 48-50 feet of rope.
Anyone else?
CalElliot
09-17-2011, 01:51 PM
Valhall (Hinky Meter) calculated the depth of the balcony @ 24".
In the SDSO diagram,the bedroom measures 224" long x 109.6" wide.
The bed (which looks like a double-sized bed) moved ~7.5" from the wall.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg
Standard size for double beds is 75".
224" - 75" = 149".
So there would have been 149" from the foot of the bed (minus a couple more inches for the footboard) to the balcony threshold.
149" + 24" = 173" from the foot of the bed to the balcony railing, but you need to add a few more feet for the rope going @ an angle up over the 36" high railing.
I'm going to guestimate that roughly 17' to 19' of rope (give or take a few inches) was used going from the footboard of the bed to where it went over the top of the railing.
So going with the above and AR...
AR has rope on wrists at 84" + loop, appx. 90” = appx. 7.5'
AR DOES NOT INCLUDE LENGTH OF ROPE ON ANKLES.
From my loose-rope re-creation, I came up with appx. 20' for rope for BOTH bindings (which means an extremely generous 12.5' for ankle binding; may have been closer to 9'; loops on tow line are 6”).
PLUS 17' to 19' based on Sorrell Skye estimate above.
PLUS rope on neck as per AR of 22" plus loop = appx 2.5'
PLUS 9'2" drop = appx. 9'
At a minimum: 7.5 + 9 + 17 + 2.5 + 9 = 45'
At a maximum: 7.5 + 12.5 + 19 + 2.5 + 9 = 50.5'
Conclusions:
1) The rope was not masterfully cut into the perfect lengths for binding and hanging.
2) LE left out total amount of rope present at crime scene.
3) The total amount does not add up to the standard 60' minimum length of a two-person/340 tow rope (some two-person two ropes are LONGER).
4) There is a missing piece of rope that is approximately 9.5’ to 15' long.
Please doublecheck these figures. Thank you.
SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 04:13 PM
Hmmm, momento? Or still somewhere to be found?
CalElliot
09-17-2011, 05:47 PM
Wouldn't a new rope be more kinked up and harder to do all that self knotting?
For re-creation, I used brand-new, straight out of bag two-rider tow rope used for water-skiing, Jet-skis, etc, boating. It did not kink up and knotted fairly easily, but I found it extremely difficult to do tidy knots as appeared in LE demo. Also, difficult to deal with that length of rope when knotting, and wrist bindings were equal, suggesting they were done first.
CalElliot
09-17-2011, 06:02 PM
This is photo of tow rope from West Marine. There are four West Marine stores within 10 miles of Coronado and many more in Southern California.
SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 08:22 PM
For re-creation, I used brand-new, straight out of bag two-rider tow rope used for water-skiing, Jet-skis, etc, boating. It did not kink up and knotted fairly easily, but I found it extremely difficult to do tidy knots as appeared in LE demo. Also, difficult to deal with that length of rope when knotting, and wrist bindings were equal, suggesting they were done first.
That is what I have always found with tow rope. It is 'stiffer' for lack of a nautical term, than the rope in the video appeared to be.
Thank you for trying this and letting us know the results!!
Morag
09-18-2011, 03:09 PM
I still can't believe that this is a case of suicide, but the rope could have been measured by casting it off the second floor landing to the foyer floor. Wouldn't that have been very close to the same distance from the top of the balcony railing to the courtyard level? (top of the landing balcony railing should be about the same height as the balcony railing)
curiousjo
09-18-2011, 03:36 PM
How to measure rope:
You tie the rope to the bed, then approach balcony(but don't step out) and toss it over. Run downstairs to lawn (vs tossed to 2nd partner in crime on lawn), stand on table or chair to cut rope. Use pieces of cut rope to tie feet/hands. Pull rope back up and hang yourself.
The only thing - how do you know not to stand on balcony and make footprints that would give you away? Unless, the boot print is the criminals vs LE boot print masked underlying shoe print.
Also, when rope pulled out, it would fall over rail onto balcony floor and make mark. Finally, someone may be very good with estimating and rope.
SunnieRN
09-18-2011, 05:13 PM
How to measure rope:
You tie the rope to the bed, then approach balcony(but don't step out) and toss it over. Run downstairs to lawn (vs tossed to 2nd partner in crime on lawn), stand on table or chair to cut rope. Use pieces of cut rope to tie feet/hands. Pull rope back up and hang yourself.
The only thing - how do you know not to stand on balcony and make footprints that would give you away? Unless, the boot print is the criminals vs LE boot print masked underlying shoe print.
Also, when rope pulled out, it would fall over rail onto balcony floor and make mark. Finally, someone may be very good with estimating and rope.
:floorlaugh: Thank you!! I needed to giggle about now!! Seriously sounds far fetched that someone would worry about foot prints on a balcony if they were foing to jump off said balcony to end their life.
greenpalm
09-23-2011, 01:52 PM
Is there a floor plan of the entire house/courtyard property anywhere? I've been wondering if the guest room boasted the ONLY Juliet balcony on the entire mansion complex. Is it possible someone used a different balcony to do their calculations of rope length?
defense101
09-23-2011, 03:17 PM
Is there a floor plan of the entire house/courtyard property anywhere? I've been wondering if the guest room boasted the ONLY Juliet balcony on the entire mansion complex. Is it possible someone used a different balcony to do their calculations of rope length? Here are the plans, they were found by Arielilane early on, you will scroll down to page 337
http://www.coronado.ca.us/egov/docs/1291417976_640991.pdf
greenpalm
09-23-2011, 06:04 PM
Is there a floor plan of the entire house/courtyard property anywhere? I've been wondering if the guest room boasted the ONLY Juliet balcony on the entire mansion complex. Is it possible someone used a different balcony to do their calculations of rope length?
Here are the plans, they were found by Arielilane early on, you will scroll down to page 337
http://www.coronado.ca.us/egov/docs/1291417976_640991.pdf
Thank you. I have thoroughly examined the elevations and the floor plan. Looks like there were no other balconies on the property at all. So, that rules out that theory. I definitely feel like I know my way around now,
greenpalm
09-25-2011, 10:10 AM
At one point, we websleuthers were discussing the possible connection to shibari, a Japanese style of sexual bondage. any more thoughts on that.
jjenny
09-25-2011, 10:58 AM
We were forbidden to discuss this particular topic since no msm articles suggested anything of the sort.
Has it ever been stated if the rope had been seen by anyone else before this tragedy?? Who purchased it? Since the home was so close to the water I am assuming it would be very common in that area.
Jonah said he didn't know if that rope was in the garage. LE said there was some smal spot on a shelf or something, in the garage, where something may have been (like the rope).
We were forbidden to discuss this particular topic since no msm articles suggested anything of the sort.
I think the only interest in this is that someone had knowledge of knots and probably bondage, whether they practiced it or not. I don't think this had anything to do with Rebecca or her intimate life. I hope this is not out of bounds in saying.
Here, again, is a video of the most likely type of boating knot used:
http://www.animatedknots.com/rattailstopper/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
Look at the pics below the video, esp 15-21.
.If this knot was ruled out already, sorry,
I think the only interest in this is that someone had knowledge of knots and probably bondage, whether they practiced it or not. I don't think this had anything to do with Rebecca or her intimate life. I hope this is not out of bounds in saying.
Adding to my own post because I did not elaborate. I think the knots could be nautical and not naughty (bondage)! But with the hands and feet both tied, gag, etc. makes it look like it a bondage scenario. Perhaps the nautical knots are used elsewhere though. However, a person with boat experience could know them for that reason.
From "The Case for Murder" thread:
..there was a handle on the rope, wrapped around her ankles.
..from the autopsy report:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
--page 11--AR--
Ankles:
Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. There is a warning on the yellow handle stating among other things----intended only for towing up to 2 people or 340 lbs. on an inflatable tube.
defense101
09-26-2011, 04:30 PM
Adding to my own post because I did not elaborate. I think the knots could be nautical and not naughty (bondage)! But with the hands and feet both tied, gag, etc. makes it look like it a bondage scenario. Perhaps the nautical knots are used elsewhere though. However, a person with boat experience could know them for that reason. I agree fully, I myself am not a boater, a cruiser yes , but not a boater and once again, not being a boater to tie my hands and feet in that fashion would never ever have occurred to me. imo
I agree fully, I myself am not a boater, a cruiser yes , but not a boater and once again, not being a boater to tie my hands and feet in that fashion would never ever have occurred to me. imo
Me either and it's much more complicated doing it yourself than doing it to someone or to an object. On top of it, I see no reason anyone trying to commit suicide would figure out a way to initially tie up their hands in front, slip out a hand, and then redo in the back. In fact, if the purpose is to keep from stopping yourself, I see no reason to tie your wrists behind your back. There is no reason to tie your fee, especially if you know you have to navigate to the balcony and foist yourself over it - more chance of failure in completing a suicide because how would you guarantee you can actually accomplish that? Arguments do not hold for any of this. Besides, statistically binding ones feet and committing suicide is even more rare.
elementry
09-26-2011, 04:42 PM
I think the only interest in this is that someone had knowledge of knots and probably bondage, whether they practiced it or not. I don't think this had anything to do with Rebecca or her intimate life. I hope this is not out of bounds in saying.
Well, it has been bandied about that JS was/is a control freak..........
greenpalm
09-26-2011, 04:50 PM
I don't have a link, but maybe someone else does, didn't we hear from LE that there was NO evidence of a search for knot tying information on the computers that were seized in the search warrants? Am I crazy? I'll go look for this…
elementry
09-26-2011, 05:01 PM
I don't have a link, but maybe someone else does, didn't we hear from LE that there was NO evidence of a search for knot tying information on the computers that were seized in the search warrants? Am I crazy? I'll go look for this…
No word that I can recall on anything that might have been gleaned from the computers. Taking them into custody though has prevented anyone else from seeing what's within them. Do they just stay locked away forever on some dusty shelf somewhere? Maybe LE mistakenly erased them like it's alleged they painted over the message and possibly compromised RZ's cell phone message memory.
seems there could be some stinky hinky here with SD LE......a shame they didn't do a better job from the get-go and thus prevent this mire of doubt to fester and leave this vague stink......
SunnieRN
09-26-2011, 05:14 PM
Regardless of what the rope ties would normally be used for, I think we can safely assume, grrrr, I hate this word, so I will say instead, that I think most here would agree, that the person who tied the ropes had knowledge of ropes, knots and was comfortable using nautical type rope.
When links were posted, the art of bondage used a very specific type or types of rope. Not nautical rope. The nautical rope used, would be something that someone familiar with that type of rope would be able to manipullate, into the types of useage we saw displayed.
I will also repeat here, that to the best of my knowledge, the bindings themselves have never been shown as they appeared on Rebecca.
If someone were to bind themselves, in the way that Rebecca was found, in what order would you do the bindings? Feet, neck, hands? Neck, feet, hands? Also don't forget the gag that had to be wrapped around the noose three times and stuffed into Rebecca's mouth as a gag. How far down Rebecca's throat was the shirt stuffed, when Adam removed it?
jjenny
09-26-2011, 09:38 PM
Me either and it's much more complicated doing it yourself than doing it to someone or to an object. On top of it, I see no reason anyone trying to commit suicide would figure out a way to initially tie up their hands in front, slip out a hand, and then redo in the back. In fact, if the purpose is to keep from stopping yourself, I see no reason to tie your wrists behind your back. There is no reason to tie your fee, especially if you know you have to navigate to the balcony and foist yourself over it - more chance of failure in completing a suicide because how would you guarantee you can actually accomplish that? Arguments do not hold for any of this. Besides, statistically binding ones feet and committing suicide is even more rare.
Also, in a 9ft drop, the death is supposed to be very quick so really there is no need to bind hands at all-at 9ft one might expect the neck to break and even if it didn't there are only seconds before the person passes out.
So the purpose of all this binding is puzzling to me, especially considering she had to get over the railing.
Also, in a 9ft drop, the death is supposed to be very quick so really there is no need to bind hands at all-at 9ft one might expect the neck to break and even if it didn't there are only seconds before the person passes out.
So the purpose of all this binding is puzzling to me, especially considering she had to get over the railing.
Yeah, I hadn't thought of it but tying the hands is more appropriate to standing on something.
Regardless of what the rope ties would normally be used for, I think we can safely assume, grrrr, I hate this word, so I will say instead, that I think most here would agree, that the person who tied the ropes had knowledge of ropes, knots and was comfortable using nautical type rope.
When links were posted, Not nautical rope. The nautical rope used, would be something that someone familiar with that type of rope would be able to manipullate, into the types of useage we saw displayed.
I will also repeat here, that to the best of my knowledge, the bindings themselves have never been shown as they appeared on Rebecca.
If someone were to bind themselves, in the way that Rebecca was found, in what order would you do the bindings? Feet, neck, hands? Neck, feet, hands? Also don't forget the gag that had to be wrapped around the noose three times and stuffed into Rebecca's mouth as a gag. How far down Rebecca's throat was the shirt stuffed, when Adam removed it?
You said it better than I did... the knots and ropes seem nautical. I'm not sure it is a bondage scenario but it sort of looks like one, that would be a mismatch in the two. I'm entertaining that idea more because the scene looks sort of crazy to me, too inconsistent - staging after the fact maybe? Further, it could be to hide an angry scene that got out of control. Or setup to look a bit wacky and lead police in many directions, but no forensic evidence to pin it on anyone? I usually go with the simplest explanation, but I'm not sure what it is in this case because it seems overdone, over the top. I can't see someone just getting angry and spontaneously coming up with this method of killing someone. Maybe that leads us back to whether that autopsy says all it should have said as I'm starting to think she was dead before she was hanged - or else hanged/strangled and then everything was staged after including the bindings. Why would a killer go to the trouble of tying those knots like that?
SunnieRN
09-26-2011, 10:39 PM
You said it better than I did... the knots and ropes seem nautical. I'm not sure it is a bondage scenario but it sort of looks like one, that would be a mismatch in the two. I'm entertaining that idea more because the scene looks sort of crazy to me, too inconsistent - staging after the fact maybe? Further, it could be to hide an angry scene that got out of control. Or setup to look a bit wacky and lead police in many directions, but no forensic evidence to pin it on anyone? I usually go with the simplest explanation, but I'm not sure what it is in this case because it seems overdone, over the top. I can't see someone just getting angry and spontaneously coming up with this method of killing someone. Maybe that leads us back to whether that autopsy says all it should have said as I'm starting to think she was dead before she was hanged - or else hanged/strangled and then everything was staged after including the bindings. Why would a killer go to the trouble of tying those knots like that?
Why would a killer go to the trouble of tying knots like this? Because those are the knots the killer uses regularly, would be the simplest answer to me.
I have no idea what occurred, but we know for certain that Adam had knowledge of rope and knots, in his job.
Nina or Dina both had been on boats on a regular basis with their Dad.
Jonah, as listed in another thread owns a boat, that is reported to have been moved to different locations three times since Rebecca died. Doubt the boat having been moved is significant to Rebecca's death, but shows that someone (the owner?) knows how to tie down and secure his boat.
What makes this significant, is that if we compare these people's knowledge of ropes used in boating, we also have to compare Rebecca's knowledge, or lack thereof. Rebecca was learning to swim, to enter a marathon with a friend. This does not bespeak of someone being comfortable about being in the water, or most likely on boats either.
Just a thought I have had when discussing this prior, that has not left my head, or been resolved in my mind.
jjenny
09-26-2011, 10:45 PM
Yeah, I hadn't thought of it but tying the hands is more appropriate to standing on something.
I believe most people who tie their hands do it because they made previous unsuccessful attempts, so they know to do it. RN has not make any previous suicide attempts. Other possibility is that people who bind their hands behind their back are trying to make their suicide to look like a murder. We had been given a motive for RN's suicide as grief and guilt over Max's upcoming death. Why would she be trying to stage her suicide to look like murder?
SunnieRN
09-26-2011, 10:49 PM
I believe most people who tie their hands do it because they made previous unsuccessful attempts, so they know to do it. RN has not make any previous suicide attempts. Other possibility is that people who bind their hands behind their back are trying to make their suicide to look like a murder. We had been given a motive for RN's suicide as grief and guilt over Max's upcoming death. Why would she be trying to stage her suicide to look like murder?
I seriously do not see any reason for her to do so. Most especially if she was 'feeling guilty'.
Wendy101
09-26-2011, 10:57 PM
The rope and knots are the reason the investigation took soo long.. they had to have that woman practice over and over, hour after hour to make it look so easy in that video....:floorlaugh:
jjenny
09-26-2011, 10:58 PM
:floorlaugh:The rope and knots are the reason the investigation took soo long.. they had to have that woman practive over and over, hour after hour to make it look so easy in that video.... :D
greenpalm
09-26-2011, 11:35 PM
I don't have a link, but maybe someone else does, didn't we hear from LE that there was NO evidence of a search for knot tying information on the computers that were seized in the search warrants? Am I crazy? I'll go look for this…
No word that I can recall on anything that might have been gleaned from the computers. Taking them into custody though has prevented anyone else from seeing what's within them. Do they just stay locked away forever on some dusty shelf somewhere? Maybe LE mistakenly erased them like it's alleged they painted over the message and possibly compromised RZ's cell phone message memory.
seems there could be some stinky hinky here with SD LE......a shame they didn't do a better job from the get-go and thus prevent this mire of doubt to fester and leave this vague stink......
I got it from SunnieRN: The knots are yet another piece of the puzzle that begs for further investigation. There were no computer searches on suicide or knot tying. There were no books found in the room that taught how to tie knots. Where did she learn them?
But she doesn't link it. Sunnie, I'm going to guess that you made that statement out of deduction. If LE had found evidence for searches on knot tying on her computer, surely they'd have told us, as that would have been extremely compelling evidence of suicide. The absence of them telling us implies that they didn't find any such searches, but… maybe they didn't look at the computers. It took them a month to turn her cell phone on, and even then they couldn't figure out how to examine it forensically. (my husband served as a juror on a murder trial… they had a cell phone expert examine the phones)
Illustration of hanging with dimensions of rope, Rebecca, and Adam. Claims Adam could have cut Rebecca down easily without the table.
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/f4x6h
greenpalm
09-27-2011, 07:08 AM
Illustration of hanging with dimensions of rope, Rebecca, and Adam. Claims Adam could have cut Rebecca down easily without the table.
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/f4x6h
Thanks for the diagram. I mentioned in another thread, that I assumed Adam pulled the table under Rebecca's feet.
How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.
Thanks for the diagram. I mentioned in another thread, that I assumed Adam pulled the table under Rebecca's feet.
How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.
Agree, totally! And, since SDSO didn't say they did or could match up the cut ends of that rope, it could have been any length.
[In some source that I have lost now and can't validate, it was also claimed that the end of each piece of rope was taped off (did anyone else read this?). If so, I can't fathom someone committing suicide would do this.]
SDSO said that Adam broke the leg of the table while pulling it over to be able to cut her down. Possible he did and then decided he could actually reach her, but I'm more likely to believe it could have eyeballed it.
The problem I'm having with the diagram is it says the rope was cut at neck level, leaving 10 inches of rope dangling. [Is that the correct length of rope still on her neck, evidence in photos?]
jjenny
09-27-2011, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the diagram. I mentioned in another thread, that I assumed Adam pulled the table under Rebecca's feet.
How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.
Since they didn't see her hanging (and nobody else did except for AS) I presume they estimated it by adding her height to the length of the rope hanging from the balcony. But you are right, I am not sure how accurate their estimations are.
Well, adding 1 decimal places makes it look accurate. It would have been better if they made it 26.21 inches for more impressive accuracy . After all, they were very scientific and based their findings on the forensics.
This is nice !
http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2006/10/27/borat/borat.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenpalm
How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.
SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 01:24 PM
Maybe that was why she had tape residue on her legs. Maybe she used her legs to hold the tape that was put on the ends of the pieces of rope. :banghead::innocent::maddening::floorlaugh::waitas ec:
Sorry, but if we ever cut tow ropes or other boating ropes, we had to burn the ends of the rope to keep it from coming apart. Tape would not have stayed on in water.
IWannaKnow
10-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Someone into BDSM would have the knowledge and skills to pull this off.
coastal
10-07-2011, 06:56 PM
Valhall posted a new article on October 4, 2011. Here's a link for anyone (else) who may have missed it:
Rebecca Zahau case: A Dynamic Loading Analysis of the Fall
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/10/04/rebecca-zahau-case-a-dynamic-loading-analysis-of-the-fall/
Thank you, Valhall!
Not sure this was ever put int his thread
Lyndsey Philpott, a forensic knotting expert, talks about the Rebecca Zahau case Video
http://drdrew.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/08/knotting-expert-talks-rebecca-zahau-case/?hpt=dr_bn1
Transcripts
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/08/ddhln.01.html
Now, we saw that video there where it looks -- that, to me, looks difficult. But I`ve got a forensic specialist here, Lyndsey Philpott, a knotting expert who worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case.
I`m actually really grateful you`re here, because if it`s possible, show me how. Somebody who had no experience with rope, looking at that video, it seems extraordinary to think that somebody in an altered state perhaps could sit down, never having worked with a rope before, and bind themselves, and do it the way we saw in that video.
LYNDSEY PHILPOTT, FORENSIC KNOTTING EXPERT: It`s a very curious thing to be able to tie yourself in knots. And seeing the way in which the video displayed it, you first of all have to find the halfway point on the line, and then put it over yourself like this.
PINSKY: How would you know to do that? I would not know to do that unless I were a sailor from the 17th century or something. And I`m a young woman in distress. I`m going to think to do that?
PHILPOTT: I really don`t think that anybody could think to do that.
PINSKY: OK.
PHILPOTT: And it`s very difficult for me even as an expert to be able to manipulate these lines in some way so that I can -- you can see it.
PINSKY: And she actually did it behind her back. Then she got it -- but then --
PHILPOTT: And then to take them off there and put them behind her back would be tantamount to contortionist, because you then have to try to figure out where things are going and how they`re going to get there.
And what would be the purpose? What would be the purpose in showing that your hands are tied behind your back? After all is said and done, if you`re going to be committing suicide, aren`t you mainly concerned with asphyxiating or breaking your own neck as a result of that?
PINSKY: And then the feet too were bound, I guess, although I haven`t seen any video on what kind of binding she allegedly did there. That, too, seems very, very bizarre.
PHILPOTT: I haven`t seen anything which indicates the kind of binding around her wrists, nor have I seen anything indicating the kind of knot around her ankles.
PINSKY: And by the way, how about having the knowledge to be able to have the right kind of -- I wouldn`t know what kind of knot to put around a bed to make sure I wouldn`t just fall to the ground. I mean, isn`t even that in itself a little challenging?
PHILPOTT: That is challenging.
PINSKY: And how about the noose? I don`t know how to tie -- how would she (ph) know how to tie a noose?
PHILPOTT: There`s a number of different ways of tying a noose. You can tie one by doing this. But as you can see, if you put the end in the wrong place, that will simply come apart and you`ll be left with nothing.
You have to put it into the right place, and you have to know to put it into the right place so that it would actually stay in position. And then once it does, it`s going to tighten up around the bed post.
Most people will tie lots of knots. If they`re going to tie anything at all, they`ll tie lots of knots.
PINSKY: That makes sense to me. That makes sense to me.
PHILPOTT: They`ll tie lots of the long kind. And she wasn`t doing that.
PINSKY: And that`s not what she was doing, yes.
Well, listen, I really appreciate you being here, because to me this is one of the most mysterious parts of this, is watching an explanation on a video that`s supposed to show us how it was likely that she did it when, to me, it makes it even more mysterious.
IWannaKnow
10-14-2011, 07:59 AM
On the subject of Rebecca's wrist bands being on and the logistics of taking the rope on/off with wrist bands on....doesn't seem to be too much of an issue with the BDSM crowd:
WARNING: Graphic advertisements at link~ BBM
http://www.shibaricon.com/rules.html
BADGES
You must wear your wristband AND badge at all times during Shibaricon. The wristband is designed to be worn for the duration of the event. You will not be permitted to enter any portion of the event without BOTH your badge AND wristband. If you lose your badge or wristband, please contact registration immediately.
In any event as large as Shibaricon, there may be times when individuals who don’t belong attempt to get into the play spaces or classrooms. Prominently displaying your wristband - ON YOUR WRIST - and wearing your name badge helps us quickly detect people who shouldn't be at the event. If you see someone who appears to be too young or has no identification please notify security immediately.
NOT implying that was what Rebecca's wrist bands were, only that wristbands per se do not seem to be an issue with this.....
Interesting photo:
Amazon.com: "The Beauty of Kinbaku: Or everything you ever wanted to know about Japanese erotic bondage when you suddenly realized you didn't speak Japanese" (9780615248769): Master "K": Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ysfizmGqL.@@AMEPARAM@@41ysfizmGqL
I see a resemblence between this:
WARNING - nude model:
http://www.japaneseropeart.com/RopeArt/Ryo_Tekubi/index.html
and the rope tying video located here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html
Interesting:
http://japaneseropeart.com/RopeArt/materials.html
http://japaneseropeart.com/RopeArt/Ritual.html
I see many parallels.....
Mrs. Holmes
10-15-2011, 05:34 PM
I wonder if LE even searched for books in the mansion on rope tying? I wonder if there are books on rope tying at the Arizona home?
I wonder if LE even searched for books in the mansion on rope tying? I wonder if there are books on rope tying at the Arizona home?
Someone should check into the movie selections in their home or netflix or other video service rental or purchases.
I actually recall a horror movie where a woman sees into the past an Asian woman in the process of hanging herself. The suicidal woman is nude, and binds her hands behind her back and then hangs herself from a stepladder or chair. I don't recall the title of the movie though...
Anyone remember a movie like that?
Maybe if evidence is found where the suspects AS, DR, NR, JS or even RZ is shown to have watched such a movie about hanging nude and self-binding hands, then we can make further conclusions about whether it was suicide or murder.
Betty P
10-19-2011, 06:16 PM
Have to admit my very first impression on reading the news stories of RZ's death was "couple involved in kinky sex bondage games". From the beginning, my assumption was a boyfriend angry w/ his girlfriend over the accidental death of his son lures her into a compromising situation by initiating a sex bondage game, then kills her. MOO
Schmerty_Jones
10-19-2011, 06:40 PM
Have to admit my very first impression on reading the news stories of RZ's death was "couple involved in kinky sex bondage games". From the beginning, my assumption was a boyfriend angry w/ his girlfriend over the accidental death of his son lures her into a compromising situation by initiating a sex bondage game, then kills her. MOO
Interesting thought! I don't think RZ committed suicide! Max's family was hostile ,hateful & out for revenge.MOO.:twocents:
IWannaKnow
10-20-2011, 09:45 AM
Have to admit my very first impression on reading the news stories of RZ's death was "couple involved in kinky sex bondage games". From the beginning, my assumption was a boyfriend angry w/ his girlfriend over the accidental death of his son lures her into a compromising situation by initiating a sex bondage game, then kills her. MOO :goodpost:
I totally agree with your assessment!
Mrs. Holmes
10-20-2011, 04:58 PM
There were some comments that some of the rope ends were taped. So maybe some of this rope had been cut before and used by someone in the house for bondage?
dovebar
10-22-2011, 12:44 AM
There are so many improbable coincidences and conclusions drawn by LE if we are to believe their scenario that it just boggles the mind. Correct me if I mis-remember details BUT:
We are asked to believe that she killed herself not only by performing amazing contortions and all the other things people have pointed out, but by tieing unusual tugboat knots - with a tugboat captain resident on the premises? What a coincidence!
She was hit on the head, according to autopsy, and there was a table leg nearby that had been kicked in, but somehow, at this millionaire's mansion, that was a coincidence! Also, although no other human can stand on a 4-legged table that is missing a leg, AS was able to - what a coincidence!
The dog was kenneled - what a coincidence!
The sister-in-law who loathed her, from the family who blamed her for the child's death, asked to come over for a "chat" the night she died, and a mysterious woman was seen on the property - what a coincidence!
Loud music that might cover an argument was heard, as were screams, but the victim was gagged - just a coincidence! Screaming is heard all the time in this posh neighborhood, right? It must just have been a coincidence!
The couple who lived on the property's guesthouse moved out soon after - quelle coincidence!
There are no cameras where JS claimed to be all night, in the Ronald McDonald house rather than a camera-laden hotel - but that's just a coincidence!
The SD-Coronado police are the unluckiest police force ever, to have so many odd coincidences develop on a multimillion dollar estate - but that's all just a big old coincidence!
dovebar
10-22-2011, 12:53 AM
I forgot the amazing coincidence that JS and some of the women left here have a history of violent arguments, with accusations about choking.
But that's surely just a coincidence.
Kind of like how OJ had a history of battering Nicole. That was just a coincidence too.
arielilane
11-27-2011, 08:27 PM
Water sport tow rope. Who would have the strength to utilize such a rope as this?
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