PDA

View Full Version : The Rope and the knots



elfie
09-11-2011, 02:28 PM
Please feel free to discuss anything about the rope in this thread. Also please bring over your previous comments from the general threads!

cali_mommy
09-11-2011, 06:12 PM
Has it ever been stated if the rope had been seen by anyone else before this tragedy?? Who purchased it? Since the home was so close to the water I am assuming it would be very common in that area.

IWannaKnow
09-12-2011, 12:42 PM
If this was a new rope, which I assume it must have been to have no other DNA on it, where the heck was the package it came in? If it sat on the garage shelf without a package, it should have been covered in dust and perhaps had some remnant of DNA from the person who took it out of the package and put it on the shelf.

scorekeeper
09-12-2011, 12:54 PM
I know we previously discussed how she used all the rope and had perfectly cut the correct lenght for tieing to the bed and her neck. I don't remember if anyone said there should have been any "fraying" pieces in the room. I also wonder did they analyze the 2 knives found in the room to see if they were really used to cut the rope?
Also, the knife on the outside ground...was it tested for DNA?

TorisMom003
09-12-2011, 02:06 PM
Score, I did bring up the missing rope fragments on the carpet in the guest bedroom. There should be red rope fibers wherever the rope was cut. If it was cut in the garage, I would expect to see them there. If the rope was cut in the guest bedroom, I would expect to see them there. I looked closely at all of the photos that LE released and could not find a single red rope fiber anywhere, not even on either of the knives. Odd, no?

sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 02:48 PM
If this was a new rope, which I assume it must have been to have no other DNA on it, where the heck was the package it came in? If it sat on the garage shelf without a package, it should have been covered in dust and perhaps had some remnant of DNA from the person who took it out of the package and put it on the shelf.

Good point about the dust, IWK! If the rope wasn't new, and had been stored on the garage shelf, dust would have collected on it.

Also - since the mansion is beachfront, if the rope had been on the garage shelf for an extended period of time, it would have salt & mineral residue on it from the ocean air. If the rope was used, it would have salt & mineral residue on it from the ocean water.

About the packaging materials - if the rope was brand new, where is the plastic or paper (with the label) that wrapped it? Where is the plastic spool it would have been coiled around, or the plastic ties that would have been wrapped around it to keep it tidy during shipping?

jjenny
09-12-2011, 02:53 PM
Good point about the dust, IWK! If the rope wasn't new, and had been stored on the garage shelf, dust would have collected on it.

Also - since the mansion is beachfront, if the rope had been on the garage shelf for an extended period of time, it would have salt & mineral residue on it from the ocean air. If the rope was used, it would have salt & mineral residue on it from the ocean water.

About the packaging materials - if the rope was brand new, where is the plastic or paper (with the label) that wrapped it? Where is the plastic spool it would have been coiled around, or the plastic ties that would have been wrapped around it to keep it tidy during shipping?

I also think the rope had to be new because they tested it and found no DNA on it rather than RN's. If it had been used then I presume the DNA from other people would have been on it. JS didn't know if they had that kind of rope in the house, and it appears LE wasn't at all curious where it came from (simply assuming it came from the garage because there is space where it could have been).

SunnieRN
09-12-2011, 03:06 PM
The rope. Is it the same thickness/pliability as the rope used in the video made by LE?

sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 03:41 PM
I also think the rope had to be new because they tested it and found no DNA on it rather than RN's. If it had been used then I presume the DNA from other people would have been on it. JS didn't know if they had that kind of rope in the house, and it appears LE wasn't at all curious where it came from (simply assuming it came from the garage because there is space where it could have been).

If the rope was not new, viable DNA may or may have not been on it (depending on when it might have been last handled, prior to RZ's death). DNA is very vulnerable to environmental conditions. Did LE test every millimeter of the rope - or just random segments of it - for DNA? Unless they tested every millimeter of it, they can't state with 100% accuracy that the rope contained no one else's DNA besides RZ's.

I agree with you about LE's lack of curiosity as to where the rope came from. I was astounded during the PC when it came out that there was an empty space on a garage shelf, therefore it was concluded the rope must have been on that shelf - especially since the homeowner (JS) couldn't say one way or another if the rope had been on that shelf.

SunnieRN
09-12-2011, 03:43 PM
If the rope was not new, viable DNA may or may have not been on it (depending on when it might have been last handled, prior to RZ's death). DNA is very vulnerable to environmental conditions. Did LE test every millimeter of the rope - or just random segments of it - for DNA? Unless they tested every millimeter of it, they can't state with 100% accuracy that the rope contained no one else's DNA besides RZ's.

I agree with you about LE's lack of curiosity as to where the rope came from. I was astounded during the PC when it came out that there was an empty space on a garage shelf, therefore it was concluded the rope must have been on that shelf - especially since the homeowner (JS) couldn't say one way or another if the rope had been on that shelf.

10 spots near the knots. They didn't even claim to have tested the end where Rebecca was cut down.

sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 03:46 PM
10 spots near the knots. They didn't even claim to have tested the end where Rebecca was cut down.

Thanks Sunnie!

10 spots. On a rope how long? 60 feet, IIRC?

I continue to be astounded.

ehough22
09-12-2011, 03:51 PM
I, too, am astounded at the casualness of LE admitting they don't know where the rope came from. I know, I know, there was "an empty spot in the garage". That's nothing when you're talking a possible murder weapon and the difference between murder and suicide. It's curious to me because, imo, the rope "evidence" (as far as it maybe coming from the garage) is no weaker than a lot of their evidence yet the rope is the only thing they said "possibly" about in the press conference. The murder weapon or at the very least the method of death, and they say "possibly".

Where is the bag it came in? Isn't it a problem if say, that's in the guest house? But they don't know. Perhaps it was removed from its original wrapping and stored in the plastic bag (later found in the guest room), which would explain the apparent lack of dust or dirt.

jjenny
09-12-2011, 04:00 PM
If the rope was not new, viable DNA may or may have not been on it (depending on when it might have been last handled, prior to RZ's death). DNA is very vulnerable to environmental conditions. Did LE test every millimeter of the rope - or just random segments of it - for DNA? Unless they tested every millimeter of it, they can't state with 100% accuracy that the rope contained no one else's DNA besides RZ's.

I agree with you about LE's lack of curiosity as to where the rope came from. I was astounded during the PC when it came out that there was an empty space on a garage shelf, therefore it was concluded the rope must have been on that shelf - especially since the homeowner (JS) couldn't say one way or another if the rope had been on that shelf.

It also looks to be new from the photos. Shiny and new. If it was actually used for the purpose of which it was designed for, I don't think it would be looking so new.

sorrell skye
09-12-2011, 05:14 PM
It also looks to be new from the photos. Shiny and new. If it was actually used for the purpose of which it was designed for, I don't think it would be looking so new.

I agree - when I look @ close-ups of the rope, it looks brand spanking new. There doesn't appear to be a speck of dirt on it.

So where is the packaging material? LE never said word one about that. I wonder if they even looked for the packaging material. If the rope is brand new - where was it purchased from & who purchased it & when?

Oh, but they claim their findings are "ironclad". Mmmm hmmm.

scorekeeper
09-12-2011, 07:32 PM
Score, I did bring up the missing rope fragments on the carpet in the guest bedroom. There should be red rope fibers wherever the rope was cut. If it was cut in the garage, I would expect to see them there. If the rope was cut in the guest bedroom, I would expect to see them there. I looked closely at all of the photos that LE released and could not find a single red rope fiber anywhere, not even on either of the knives. Odd, no?

Thanks, Toris. Yes, red fibers should really show up on the gray carpet but like you, I see no fibers. It doesn't even looked like the knives were used....seems so staged.

ehough22
09-12-2011, 09:54 PM
The thing about cutting rope with a knife (as opposed to scissors) is that I imagine some amount of sawing is necessary, which should produce fibers! I realize we aren't talking a very thick rope here, but presumably it's strong given its intended use and it wouldn't just break in half at the touch of a knife. There had to be some amount of sawing action, so where are those fibers? If it was cut with those knives at all.

sdcali
09-12-2011, 11:07 PM
I posted about the lack of fibers on the carpet or on the knives, too. IMO it is a glaring clue. LE did not even mention the lack of rope fibers.

If there were no fibers in the room, then it seems to me LE would search for fibers elsewhere in the house or garage (where the rope was supposedly stored). I agree with IWK about the rope having dust if it were stored in the garage and not used for some time. Did it have residue of salt water? It did appear new to me. Was there discarded packaging? My guess is it was brought to the house, brand new and out of the packaging.

Winnts
09-13-2011, 01:05 PM
Were the knives used to cur the rope serated? I would think you would need a serated knife. If so were fibers on the floor ? It could not have been a clean cut.

Was this put into evidence?

Same with when she was cut down.

Winnts
09-13-2011, 01:09 PM
Regarding the rope also, since they were trying to determine if it was a homicide or suicide, wouldn't they have tried to locate the make and model of the rope, along with what stores sold it and who had recently purchased that particular brand?

Did they pursue this avenue? If yes, what were their findings.

Winnts
09-13-2011, 01:12 PM
If the 3 knives were not similar, did they examine each knife with the cuts to see if they matched up?

For instance, when she was cut down, did it match up to that knife?

If testing showed they were all cut from the same knife then we surely don't have a suicide folks.

SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 01:55 PM
Someone on another thread here, stated that someone must have tied the knots that were in the rope, prior to this event. That would have meant that 'someone' would have had to then, rolled up and placed the rope on the shelf.

How could that have been done with absolutely no dna evidence being present. Don't believe that could have happened.

As for tracing the rope, I think that would have been next to impossible, as I have bought them at boat supply stores, walmart and an rv store. All of the ones I purchased were firm and had too be secured when rolled for storage. I realize there are peobably several brands and types, but they were NOT like the one used in LE's video.

That is another thing. There were no pnotos shown of her hands secured behind her back, or the ropes on the ankles and how they were secured. Do we know if she actually had the ropes in the figure 8 type knots? Just asking.:waitasec:

SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 02:10 PM
Just thought of something. The area of pallor between the two ligature marks. Can this be due to the fact that the smaller ligature mark occurred PRIOR to death, whereas the larger, higher ligature marking occurred AFTER death? Otherwise, wouldn't they both have been from the ame time without pallor being visible between?:waitasec:

SunnieRN
09-13-2011, 03:04 PM
Another thought. There was only the footprints that LE noted, on the balcony. How did Rebecca perfectly estimate and cut the rope the exact length she needed to execute a hanging that would leave her 2 1/2 feet off the ground? She certainly didn't walk onto the balcony, let the rope down and measure where to cut it. There would have been additional footprints.

I would have been fearful of the rope being too long and ending up on the ground.

jjenny
09-13-2011, 03:09 PM
Another thought. There was only the footprints that LE noted, on the balcony. How did Rebecca perfectly estimate and cut the rope the exact length she needed to execute a hanging that would leave her 2 1/2 feet off the ground? She certainly didn't walk onto the balcony, let the rope down and measure where to cut it. There would have been additional footprints.

I would have been fearful of the rope being too long and ending up on the ground.

Yes, her feet were only 2' off the ground. If she miscalculated she could have ended up on the ground and not dead. But yet she apparently made no attempt to estimate if the rope she was using would end up being too long. I find it very bizarre that the woman contemplating suicide wouldn't have gotten onto the balcony prior to actually hanging herself. I mean, what if the railing was not going to hold? And why didn't she attach the rope to the railing itself rather than the bed?

tvscum
09-15-2011, 03:03 AM
A freeze frame (http://kfmb.images.worldnow.com/images/15466715_BG2.jpg) of the afternoon helicopter video clearly showed the rope hanging from the balcony in the exact same position as the evidence photo taken earlier in the day.

"The rope was hanging over the balcony from the moment (officers) arrived on scene until they seized it later in the evening as evidence," said Lt. Nesbit.

Some online observers have questioned the evidence photos themselves.

Three photos posted on the Sheriff's web site show the French doors of the mansion's balcony in three different positions.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death

IWannaKnow
09-15-2011, 12:19 PM
The thing about cutting rope with a knife (as opposed to scissors) is that I imagine some amount of sawing is necessary, which should produce fibers! I realize we aren't talking a very thick rope here, but presumably it's strong given its intended use and it wouldn't just break in half at the touch of a knife. There had to be some amount of sawing action, so where are those fibers? If it was cut with those knives at all.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en

From AR page 8, BBM~

Neck:
The free "slipping" portion of the rope which passes through the knot extends 5 inches from it and has an additional 1-1/4 inch extension of frayed fibers.

I realize that the rope would probably fray from cutting, period. But my experience has been that the more 'sawing' action is required, the more it will fray...

Additionally, from the same page, it states that the right wrist had 5 loops, the left wrist had 6. The right ankle had 6 loops and the left had 8. More on the left side on both. That would imply a right handed person did this, IMO. Wonder if Rebecca was right or left handed?

IWannaKnow
09-15-2011, 12:51 PM
Just thought of something. The area of pallor between the two ligature marks. Can this be due to the fact that the smaller ligature mark occurred PRIOR to death, whereas the larger, higher ligature marking occurred AFTER death? Otherwise, wouldn't they both have been from the ame time without pallor being visible between?:waitasec:

Indeed. How would those marks get there "separated by an area of pallor"? If it came from the rope, shouldn't those marks look the same as the ligature furrow? If the theory is that the rope "slipped" on the way down, once again, why an area of pallor? There shouldn't be any blood supply to the area....maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't think so.

Page 9:
discussing the ligature furrow:

HEAD AND NECK:
It is moderately deep, dried, and reddish-brown. Posteriorly, there is a parallel, thin, red line situated 1/8 inch below the dried ligature furrow for a distance of 2-1/2 inches and separated from it by an area of pallor.

CalElliot
09-15-2011, 04:55 PM
I tried a loose re-creation of the rope use using a 60' fluorescent red-tow rope of 3/8" diameter with yellow tube on one end with markings that can be used for only two persons or maximum 340 lbs.

I used same number of loops as indicated in autopsy; loose bindings. The tow-rope knots easily enough, though I could not come close to replicating the precision knots in the video.

The bindings seem to account for about 20 feet of rope, which would leave at least 40 feet of tow-rope to account for running from the bed, through the room, over the balcony, and the noose.

New in the bag, the tow-rope has knotted loops at both ends with no frayed ends. It is a type commonly sold for $12-$20 in boating stores in Southern California.

It is somewhat flat in the braid, not as rounded as the rope shown in the LE video; the diameter gets considerably larger and rounder toward the knots at the ends. To me looks identical to the tow-rope used at crime scene.

CalElliot
09-15-2011, 05:05 PM
By even the loosest estimates, this would leave a rather significant chunk of tow-rope unaccounted for.

Cynic, Bonepile, anyone else, based on depth of balcony and size of room, can you run the numbers from bed to noose... How many feet?

sorrell skye
09-15-2011, 05:48 PM
Valhall (Hinky Meter) calculated the depth of the balcony @ 24".

In the SDSO diagram,the bedroom measures 224" long x 109.6" wide.

The bed (which looks like a double-sized bed) moved ~7.5" from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg

Standard size for double beds is 75".

224" - 75" = 149".

So there would have been 149" from the foot of the bed (minus a couple more inches for the footboard) to the balcony threshold.

149" + 24" = 173" from the foot of the bed to the balcony railing, but you need to add a few more feet for the rope going @ an angle up over the 36" high railing.

I'm going to guestimate that roughly 17' to 19' of rope (give or take a few inches) was used going from the footboard of the bed to where it went over the top of the railing.

Curious Me
09-15-2011, 05:52 PM
Another thought. There was only the footprints that LE noted, on the balcony. How did Rebecca perfectly estimate and cut the rope the exact length she needed to execute a hanging that would leave her 2 1/2 feet off the ground? She certainly didn't walk onto the balcony, let the rope down and measure where to cut it. There would have been additional footprints.

I would have been fearful of the rope being too long and ending up on the ground.

My friend has asked me that very fact about this case. How did Rebecca estimate how much rope to cut if she did not go out to the balcony to get some calculations? How did she measure before cutting? Why aren't there more of her footprints on that balcony?

Didn't that seem extremely odd to LE?

I started thinking about if the rope was new, I would think it wouldn't be all loose and flexible like in the demo. Wouldn't a new rope be more kinked up and harder to do all that self knotting? Then, there's questions about the cutting of the rope and no evidence it was ever cut in that room. I guess LE thought we'd be satisfied with the rope demo.

CalElliot
09-15-2011, 07:49 PM
Valhall (Hinky Meter) calculated the depth of the balcony @ 24".

In the SDSO diagram,the bedroom measures 224" long x 109.6" wide.

The bed (which looks like a double-sized bed) moved ~7.5" from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg

Standard size for double beds is 75".

224" - 75" = 149".

So there would have been 149" from the foot of the bed (minus a couple more inches for the footboard) to the balcony threshold.

149" + 24" = 173" from the foot of the bed to the balcony railing, but you need to add a few more feet for the rope going @ an angle up over the 36" high railing.

I'm going to guestimate that roughly 17' to 19' of rope (give or take a few inches) was used going from the footboard of the bed to where it went over the top of the railing.

So add another 10' for drop and that leaves 10' of the tow-rope missing.

elementry
09-16-2011, 02:30 AM
My friend has asked me that very fact about this case. How did Rebecca estimate how much rope to cut if she did not go out to the balcony to get some calculations? How did she measure before cutting? Why aren't there more of her footprints on that balcony?

Didn't that seem extremely odd to LE?

I started thinking about if the rope was new, I would think it wouldn't be all loose and flexible like in the demo. Wouldn't a new rope be more kinked up and harder to do all that self knotting? Then, there's questions about the cutting of the rope and no evidence it was ever cut in that room. I guess LE thought we'd be satisfied with the rope demo.

The charitable view is that SD LE has proven themselves to be a lazy bunch, and possibly bungled the search for justice on behalf of Rebecca Zahau. The less charitable view is that they willfully forced a limited grouping of facts into a preordained conclusion, and that it wasn't mere bungling. ( Let it be added, that the most charitable view is that they happen to be right about all of this and only ne'er-do-wells and armchair Sherlocks and disgruntled family members of the deceased would disagree with LE's top of the line work on this case.)

Btw,as I may have quipped earlier: How many SD detectives does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

(16?)

ehough22
09-16-2011, 10:26 AM
While I absolutely believe this was murder and that Rebecca would have needed to have some shockingly accurate visual measuring skills, the fact remains that someone did do all this with the rope without setting foot on the balcony. I don't believe Rebecca had the skills to do it. For those who believe it was murder- what is the thinking about her killer, then? How did they accomplish this?

Jade
09-16-2011, 11:23 AM
While I absolutely believe this was murder and that Rebecca would have needed to have some shockingly accurate visual measuring skills, the fact remains that someone did do all this with the rope without setting foot on the balcony. I don't believe Rebecca had the skills to do it. For those who believe it was murder- what is the thinking about her killer, then? How did they accomplish this?



As far as measurements this is an interesting:

Burmese units of measurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

~Burma is one of three countries that still predominantly uses a non-metric system of measure, according to the CIA Factbook.[178] The common units of measure are unique to Burma but the government web pages use both imperial units[179] and metric units.[180]~

Maybe she learned a method of measurement that makes it easier to determine lengths.

Not a landlocked country, heavily agrarian with a huge amount of rice grown both aspects assume a working relationship with ropes and knots.

It seems the traditional skills are utilized by everyone. It says the country lacks inadequate infrastructure and skills in modern technology.

To me it makes sense she would have agrarian skills acquired during her youth.

IMO

curiousjo
09-16-2011, 03:03 PM
http://www.examiner.com/us-headlines-in-national/report-questions-raised-about-rope-used-rebecca-zahau-hanging-death

"If there was no rope hanging from the balcony and the doors were closed but she was found bound, gagged and with a noose around her neck, she would not have closed the doors if she did what they said. If there is no rope hanging then she wasn't hanging there.”

I would like to see the photos the neighbor boys took.

curiousjo
09-16-2011, 04:12 PM
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death

Rope discussed in video

SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 07:48 PM
While I absolutely believe this was murder and that Rebecca would have needed to have some shockingly accurate visual measuring skills, the fact remains that someone did do all this with the rope without setting foot on the balcony. I don't believe Rebecca had the skills to do it. For those who believe it was murder- what is the thinking about her killer, then? How did they accomplish this?

I have theories on how this was done, as I also believe it was murder. As for measuring the rope, I don't truly believe that Rebecca had anything at all to do with that. moo of course.


http://www.examiner.com/us-headlines-in-national/report-questions-raised-about-rope-used-rebecca-zahau-hanging-death

"If there was no rope hanging from the balcony and the doors were closed but she was found bound, gagged and with a noose around her neck, she would not have closed the doors if she did what they said. If there is no rope hanging then she wasn't hanging there.”

I would like to see the photos the neighbor boys took.

As would I. I would think/hope that LE confiscated the photos. I have heard from one person, however, that it did not happen and that people are still in have pictures of Rebecca and of the scene.

As for no rope hanging there, it truly makes one think, does it not? Who moved the rope if Rebecca truly was 'hanging' there?

jjenny
09-16-2011, 08:04 PM
I think it would be most interesting to see those photos other people took and if they got the balcony-were the doors opened or closed early in the day?

sorrell skye
09-16-2011, 08:21 PM
I think it would be most interesting to see those photos other people took and if they got the balcony-were the doors opened or closed early in the day?

Yes - it would be very interesting to see photos of the balcony doors prior to the News 8 footage @ 4:45 p.m. on Sept. 13. I hope that private citizen photos are still preserved & available.

SunnieRN
09-16-2011, 08:27 PM
I think it would be most interesting to see those photos other people took and if they got the balcony-were the doors opened or closed early in the day?

Working on trying to find those pictures, through private sources!!

sdcali
09-16-2011, 10:16 PM
So add another 10' for drop and that leaves 10' of the tow-rope missing.

plus the noose and "tail" of rope off of the noose. But there is still a considerable length missing. Wonder if LE did any measuring of the rope lengths that were at the scene?


You guys are awesome!

sdcali
09-16-2011, 11:03 PM
At the top of Page 8 of the AR, it specifies the amount of rope found around the neck.

I was not able to copy and paste that portion in here, but it should be calculated into the configurations for the length of the rope. Also, I am not sure if the 7.5 inches (the distance the bed was from the wall) was also accounted for.

I come up with 48-50 feet of rope.

Anyone else?

CalElliot
09-17-2011, 01:51 PM
Valhall (Hinky Meter) calculated the depth of the balcony @ 24".

In the SDSO diagram,the bedroom measures 224" long x 109.6" wide.

The bed (which looks like a double-sized bed) moved ~7.5" from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg

Standard size for double beds is 75".

224" - 75" = 149".

So there would have been 149" from the foot of the bed (minus a couple more inches for the footboard) to the balcony threshold.

149" + 24" = 173" from the foot of the bed to the balcony railing, but you need to add a few more feet for the rope going @ an angle up over the 36" high railing.

I'm going to guestimate that roughly 17' to 19' of rope (give or take a few inches) was used going from the footboard of the bed to where it went over the top of the railing.

So going with the above and AR...


AR has rope on wrists at 84" + loop, appx. 90” = appx. 7.5'
AR DOES NOT INCLUDE LENGTH OF ROPE ON ANKLES.
From my loose-rope re-creation, I came up with appx. 20' for rope for BOTH bindings (which means an extremely generous 12.5' for ankle binding; may have been closer to 9'; loops on tow line are 6”).
PLUS 17' to 19' based on Sorrell Skye estimate above.
PLUS rope on neck as per AR of 22" plus loop = appx 2.5'
PLUS 9'2" drop = appx. 9'


At a minimum: 7.5 + 9 + 17 + 2.5 + 9 = 45'

At a maximum: 7.5 + 12.5 + 19 + 2.5 + 9 = 50.5'

Conclusions:

1) The rope was not masterfully cut into the perfect lengths for binding and hanging.

2) LE left out total amount of rope present at crime scene.

3) The total amount does not add up to the standard 60' minimum length of a two-person/340 tow rope (some two-person two ropes are LONGER).

4) There is a missing piece of rope that is approximately 9.5’ to 15' long.

Please doublecheck these figures. Thank you.

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 04:13 PM
Hmmm, momento? Or still somewhere to be found?

CalElliot
09-17-2011, 05:47 PM
Wouldn't a new rope be more kinked up and harder to do all that self knotting?

For re-creation, I used brand-new, straight out of bag two-rider tow rope used for water-skiing, Jet-skis, etc, boating. It did not kink up and knotted fairly easily, but I found it extremely difficult to do tidy knots as appeared in LE demo. Also, difficult to deal with that length of rope when knotting, and wrist bindings were equal, suggesting they were done first.

CalElliot
09-17-2011, 06:02 PM
This is photo of tow rope from West Marine. There are four West Marine stores within 10 miles of Coronado and many more in Southern California.

SunnieRN
09-17-2011, 08:22 PM
For re-creation, I used brand-new, straight out of bag two-rider tow rope used for water-skiing, Jet-skis, etc, boating. It did not kink up and knotted fairly easily, but I found it extremely difficult to do tidy knots as appeared in LE demo. Also, difficult to deal with that length of rope when knotting, and wrist bindings were equal, suggesting they were done first.

That is what I have always found with tow rope. It is 'stiffer' for lack of a nautical term, than the rope in the video appeared to be.

Thank you for trying this and letting us know the results!!

Morag
09-18-2011, 03:09 PM
I still can't believe that this is a case of suicide, but the rope could have been measured by casting it off the second floor landing to the foyer floor. Wouldn't that have been very close to the same distance from the top of the balcony railing to the courtyard level? (top of the landing balcony railing should be about the same height as the balcony railing)

curiousjo
09-18-2011, 03:36 PM
How to measure rope:
You tie the rope to the bed, then approach balcony(but don't step out) and toss it over. Run downstairs to lawn (vs tossed to 2nd partner in crime on lawn), stand on table or chair to cut rope. Use pieces of cut rope to tie feet/hands. Pull rope back up and hang yourself.
The only thing - how do you know not to stand on balcony and make footprints that would give you away? Unless, the boot print is the criminals vs LE boot print masked underlying shoe print.
Also, when rope pulled out, it would fall over rail onto balcony floor and make mark. Finally, someone may be very good with estimating and rope.

SunnieRN
09-18-2011, 05:13 PM
How to measure rope:
You tie the rope to the bed, then approach balcony(but don't step out) and toss it over. Run downstairs to lawn (vs tossed to 2nd partner in crime on lawn), stand on table or chair to cut rope. Use pieces of cut rope to tie feet/hands. Pull rope back up and hang yourself.
The only thing - how do you know not to stand on balcony and make footprints that would give you away? Unless, the boot print is the criminals vs LE boot print masked underlying shoe print.
Also, when rope pulled out, it would fall over rail onto balcony floor and make mark. Finally, someone may be very good with estimating and rope.

:floorlaugh: Thank you!! I needed to giggle about now!! Seriously sounds far fetched that someone would worry about foot prints on a balcony if they were foing to jump off said balcony to end their life.

greenpalm
09-23-2011, 01:52 PM
Is there a floor plan of the entire house/courtyard property anywhere? I've been wondering if the guest room boasted the ONLY Juliet balcony on the entire mansion complex. Is it possible someone used a different balcony to do their calculations of rope length?

defense101
09-23-2011, 03:17 PM
Is there a floor plan of the entire house/courtyard property anywhere? I've been wondering if the guest room boasted the ONLY Juliet balcony on the entire mansion complex. Is it possible someone used a different balcony to do their calculations of rope length? Here are the plans, they were found by Arielilane early on, you will scroll down to page 337

http://www.coronado.ca.us/egov/docs/1291417976_640991.pdf

greenpalm
09-23-2011, 06:04 PM
Is there a floor plan of the entire house/courtyard property anywhere? I've been wondering if the guest room boasted the ONLY Juliet balcony on the entire mansion complex. Is it possible someone used a different balcony to do their calculations of rope length?


Here are the plans, they were found by Arielilane early on, you will scroll down to page 337

http://www.coronado.ca.us/egov/docs/1291417976_640991.pdf

Thank you. I have thoroughly examined the elevations and the floor plan. Looks like there were no other balconies on the property at all. So, that rules out that theory. I definitely feel like I know my way around now,

greenpalm
09-25-2011, 10:10 AM
At one point, we websleuthers were discussing the possible connection to shibari, a Japanese style of sexual bondage. any more thoughts on that.

jjenny
09-25-2011, 10:58 AM
We were forbidden to discuss this particular topic since no msm articles suggested anything of the sort.

time
09-25-2011, 11:05 AM
Has it ever been stated if the rope had been seen by anyone else before this tragedy?? Who purchased it? Since the home was so close to the water I am assuming it would be very common in that area.

Jonah said he didn't know if that rope was in the garage. LE said there was some smal spot on a shelf or something, in the garage, where something may have been (like the rope).

time
09-25-2011, 11:32 AM
We were forbidden to discuss this particular topic since no msm articles suggested anything of the sort.

I think the only interest in this is that someone had knowledge of knots and probably bondage, whether they practiced it or not. I don't think this had anything to do with Rebecca or her intimate life. I hope this is not out of bounds in saying.

time
09-26-2011, 04:20 PM
Here, again, is a video of the most likely type of boating knot used:

http://www.animatedknots.com/rattailstopper/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Look at the pics below the video, esp 15-21.

.If this knot was ruled out already, sorry,

time
09-26-2011, 04:24 PM
I think the only interest in this is that someone had knowledge of knots and probably bondage, whether they practiced it or not. I don't think this had anything to do with Rebecca or her intimate life. I hope this is not out of bounds in saying.

Adding to my own post because I did not elaborate. I think the knots could be nautical and not naughty (bondage)! But with the hands and feet both tied, gag, etc. makes it look like it a bondage scenario. Perhaps the nautical knots are used elsewhere though. However, a person with boat experience could know them for that reason.

time
09-26-2011, 04:29 PM
From "The Case for Murder" thread:


..there was a handle on the rope, wrapped around her ankles.

..from the autopsy report:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
--page 11--AR--

Ankles:

Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. There is a warning on the yellow handle stating among other things----intended only for towing up to 2 people or 340 lbs. on an inflatable tube.

defense101
09-26-2011, 04:30 PM
Adding to my own post because I did not elaborate. I think the knots could be nautical and not naughty (bondage)! But with the hands and feet both tied, gag, etc. makes it look like it a bondage scenario. Perhaps the nautical knots are used elsewhere though. However, a person with boat experience could know them for that reason. I agree fully, I myself am not a boater, a cruiser yes , but not a boater and once again, not being a boater to tie my hands and feet in that fashion would never ever have occurred to me. imo

time
09-26-2011, 04:38 PM
I agree fully, I myself am not a boater, a cruiser yes , but not a boater and once again, not being a boater to tie my hands and feet in that fashion would never ever have occurred to me. imo


Me either and it's much more complicated doing it yourself than doing it to someone or to an object. On top of it, I see no reason anyone trying to commit suicide would figure out a way to initially tie up their hands in front, slip out a hand, and then redo in the back. In fact, if the purpose is to keep from stopping yourself, I see no reason to tie your wrists behind your back. There is no reason to tie your fee, especially if you know you have to navigate to the balcony and foist yourself over it - more chance of failure in completing a suicide because how would you guarantee you can actually accomplish that? Arguments do not hold for any of this. Besides, statistically binding ones feet and committing suicide is even more rare.

elementry
09-26-2011, 04:42 PM
I think the only interest in this is that someone had knowledge of knots and probably bondage, whether they practiced it or not. I don't think this had anything to do with Rebecca or her intimate life. I hope this is not out of bounds in saying.

Well, it has been bandied about that JS was/is a control freak..........

greenpalm
09-26-2011, 04:50 PM
I don't have a link, but maybe someone else does, didn't we hear from LE that there was NO evidence of a search for knot tying information on the computers that were seized in the search warrants? Am I crazy? I'll go look for this…

elementry
09-26-2011, 05:01 PM
I don't have a link, but maybe someone else does, didn't we hear from LE that there was NO evidence of a search for knot tying information on the computers that were seized in the search warrants? Am I crazy? I'll go look for this…

No word that I can recall on anything that might have been gleaned from the computers. Taking them into custody though has prevented anyone else from seeing what's within them. Do they just stay locked away forever on some dusty shelf somewhere? Maybe LE mistakenly erased them like it's alleged they painted over the message and possibly compromised RZ's cell phone message memory.

seems there could be some stinky hinky here with SD LE......a shame they didn't do a better job from the get-go and thus prevent this mire of doubt to fester and leave this vague stink......

SunnieRN
09-26-2011, 05:14 PM
Regardless of what the rope ties would normally be used for, I think we can safely assume, grrrr, I hate this word, so I will say instead, that I think most here would agree, that the person who tied the ropes had knowledge of ropes, knots and was comfortable using nautical type rope.

When links were posted, the art of bondage used a very specific type or types of rope. Not nautical rope. The nautical rope used, would be something that someone familiar with that type of rope would be able to manipullate, into the types of useage we saw displayed.

I will also repeat here, that to the best of my knowledge, the bindings themselves have never been shown as they appeared on Rebecca.

If someone were to bind themselves, in the way that Rebecca was found, in what order would you do the bindings? Feet, neck, hands? Neck, feet, hands? Also don't forget the gag that had to be wrapped around the noose three times and stuffed into Rebecca's mouth as a gag. How far down Rebecca's throat was the shirt stuffed, when Adam removed it?

jjenny
09-26-2011, 09:38 PM
Me either and it's much more complicated doing it yourself than doing it to someone or to an object. On top of it, I see no reason anyone trying to commit suicide would figure out a way to initially tie up their hands in front, slip out a hand, and then redo in the back. In fact, if the purpose is to keep from stopping yourself, I see no reason to tie your wrists behind your back. There is no reason to tie your fee, especially if you know you have to navigate to the balcony and foist yourself over it - more chance of failure in completing a suicide because how would you guarantee you can actually accomplish that? Arguments do not hold for any of this. Besides, statistically binding ones feet and committing suicide is even more rare.

Also, in a 9ft drop, the death is supposed to be very quick so really there is no need to bind hands at all-at 9ft one might expect the neck to break and even if it didn't there are only seconds before the person passes out.
So the purpose of all this binding is puzzling to me, especially considering she had to get over the railing.

time
09-26-2011, 09:44 PM
Also, in a 9ft drop, the death is supposed to be very quick so really there is no need to bind hands at all-at 9ft one might expect the neck to break and even if it didn't there are only seconds before the person passes out.
So the purpose of all this binding is puzzling to me, especially considering she had to get over the railing.


Yeah, I hadn't thought of it but tying the hands is more appropriate to standing on something.

time
09-26-2011, 10:03 PM
Regardless of what the rope ties would normally be used for, I think we can safely assume, grrrr, I hate this word, so I will say instead, that I think most here would agree, that the person who tied the ropes had knowledge of ropes, knots and was comfortable using nautical type rope.

When links were posted, Not nautical rope. The nautical rope used, would be something that someone familiar with that type of rope would be able to manipullate, into the types of useage we saw displayed.

I will also repeat here, that to the best of my knowledge, the bindings themselves have never been shown as they appeared on Rebecca.

If someone were to bind themselves, in the way that Rebecca was found, in what order would you do the bindings? Feet, neck, hands? Neck, feet, hands? Also don't forget the gag that had to be wrapped around the noose three times and stuffed into Rebecca's mouth as a gag. How far down Rebecca's throat was the shirt stuffed, when Adam removed it?


You said it better than I did... the knots and ropes seem nautical. I'm not sure it is a bondage scenario but it sort of looks like one, that would be a mismatch in the two. I'm entertaining that idea more because the scene looks sort of crazy to me, too inconsistent - staging after the fact maybe? Further, it could be to hide an angry scene that got out of control. Or setup to look a bit wacky and lead police in many directions, but no forensic evidence to pin it on anyone? I usually go with the simplest explanation, but I'm not sure what it is in this case because it seems overdone, over the top. I can't see someone just getting angry and spontaneously coming up with this method of killing someone. Maybe that leads us back to whether that autopsy says all it should have said as I'm starting to think she was dead before she was hanged - or else hanged/strangled and then everything was staged after including the bindings. Why would a killer go to the trouble of tying those knots like that?

SunnieRN
09-26-2011, 10:39 PM
You said it better than I did... the knots and ropes seem nautical. I'm not sure it is a bondage scenario but it sort of looks like one, that would be a mismatch in the two. I'm entertaining that idea more because the scene looks sort of crazy to me, too inconsistent - staging after the fact maybe? Further, it could be to hide an angry scene that got out of control. Or setup to look a bit wacky and lead police in many directions, but no forensic evidence to pin it on anyone? I usually go with the simplest explanation, but I'm not sure what it is in this case because it seems overdone, over the top. I can't see someone just getting angry and spontaneously coming up with this method of killing someone. Maybe that leads us back to whether that autopsy says all it should have said as I'm starting to think she was dead before she was hanged - or else hanged/strangled and then everything was staged after including the bindings. Why would a killer go to the trouble of tying those knots like that?

Why would a killer go to the trouble of tying knots like this? Because those are the knots the killer uses regularly, would be the simplest answer to me.

I have no idea what occurred, but we know for certain that Adam had knowledge of rope and knots, in his job.

Nina or Dina both had been on boats on a regular basis with their Dad.

Jonah, as listed in another thread owns a boat, that is reported to have been moved to different locations three times since Rebecca died. Doubt the boat having been moved is significant to Rebecca's death, but shows that someone (the owner?) knows how to tie down and secure his boat.

What makes this significant, is that if we compare these people's knowledge of ropes used in boating, we also have to compare Rebecca's knowledge, or lack thereof. Rebecca was learning to swim, to enter a marathon with a friend. This does not bespeak of someone being comfortable about being in the water, or most likely on boats either.

Just a thought I have had when discussing this prior, that has not left my head, or been resolved in my mind.

jjenny
09-26-2011, 10:45 PM
Yeah, I hadn't thought of it but tying the hands is more appropriate to standing on something.

I believe most people who tie their hands do it because they made previous unsuccessful attempts, so they know to do it. RN has not make any previous suicide attempts. Other possibility is that people who bind their hands behind their back are trying to make their suicide to look like a murder. We had been given a motive for RN's suicide as grief and guilt over Max's upcoming death. Why would she be trying to stage her suicide to look like murder?

SunnieRN
09-26-2011, 10:49 PM
I believe most people who tie their hands do it because they made previous unsuccessful attempts, so they know to do it. RN has not make any previous suicide attempts. Other possibility is that people who bind their hands behind their back are trying to make their suicide to look like a murder. We had been given a motive for RN's suicide as grief and guilt over Max's upcoming death. Why would she be trying to stage her suicide to look like murder?

I seriously do not see any reason for her to do so. Most especially if she was 'feeling guilty'.

Wendy101
09-26-2011, 10:57 PM
The rope and knots are the reason the investigation took soo long.. they had to have that woman practice over and over, hour after hour to make it look so easy in that video....:floorlaugh:

jjenny
09-26-2011, 10:58 PM
:floorlaugh:
The rope and knots are the reason the investigation took soo long.. they had to have that woman practive over and over, hour after hour to make it look so easy in that video.... :D

greenpalm
09-26-2011, 11:35 PM
I don't have a link, but maybe someone else does, didn't we hear from LE that there was NO evidence of a search for knot tying information on the computers that were seized in the search warrants? Am I crazy? I'll go look for this…


No word that I can recall on anything that might have been gleaned from the computers. Taking them into custody though has prevented anyone else from seeing what's within them. Do they just stay locked away forever on some dusty shelf somewhere? Maybe LE mistakenly erased them like it's alleged they painted over the message and possibly compromised RZ's cell phone message memory.

seems there could be some stinky hinky here with SD LE......a shame they didn't do a better job from the get-go and thus prevent this mire of doubt to fester and leave this vague stink......

I got it from SunnieRN:
The knots are yet another piece of the puzzle that begs for further investigation. There were no computer searches on suicide or knot tying. There were no books found in the room that taught how to tie knots. Where did she learn them?

But she doesn't link it. Sunnie, I'm going to guess that you made that statement out of deduction. If LE had found evidence for searches on knot tying on her computer, surely they'd have told us, as that would have been extremely compelling evidence of suicide. The absence of them telling us implies that they didn't find any such searches, but… maybe they didn't look at the computers. It took them a month to turn her cell phone on, and even then they couldn't figure out how to examine it forensically. (my husband served as a juror on a murder trial… they had a cell phone expert examine the phones)

time
09-27-2011, 12:23 AM
Illustration of hanging with dimensions of rope, Rebecca, and Adam. Claims Adam could have cut Rebecca down easily without the table.

https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/f4x6h

greenpalm
09-27-2011, 07:08 AM
Illustration of hanging with dimensions of rope, Rebecca, and Adam. Claims Adam could have cut Rebecca down easily without the table.

https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/f4x6h

Thanks for the diagram. I mentioned in another thread, that I assumed Adam pulled the table under Rebecca's feet.

How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.

time
09-27-2011, 11:40 AM
Thanks for the diagram. I mentioned in another thread, that I assumed Adam pulled the table under Rebecca's feet.

How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.


Agree, totally! And, since SDSO didn't say they did or could match up the cut ends of that rope, it could have been any length.

[In some source that I have lost now and can't validate, it was also claimed that the end of each piece of rope was taped off (did anyone else read this?). If so, I can't fathom someone committing suicide would do this.]

SDSO said that Adam broke the leg of the table while pulling it over to be able to cut her down. Possible he did and then decided he could actually reach her, but I'm more likely to believe it could have eyeballed it.

The problem I'm having with the diagram is it says the rope was cut at neck level, leaving 10 inches of rope dangling. [Is that the correct length of rope still on her neck, evidence in photos?]

jjenny
09-27-2011, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the diagram. I mentioned in another thread, that I assumed Adam pulled the table under Rebecca's feet.

How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.

Since they didn't see her hanging (and nobody else did except for AS) I presume they estimated it by adding her height to the length of the rope hanging from the balcony. But you are right, I am not sure how accurate their estimations are.

Pach
09-27-2011, 01:18 PM
Well, adding 1 decimal places makes it look accurate. It would have been better if they made it 26.21 inches for more impressive accuracy . After all, they were very scientific and based their findings on the forensics.
This is nice !
http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2006/10/27/borat/borat.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenpalm
How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 01:24 PM
Maybe that was why she had tape residue on her legs. Maybe she used her legs to hold the tape that was put on the ends of the pieces of rope. :banghead::innocent::maddening::floorlaugh::waitas ec:

Sorry, but if we ever cut tow ropes or other boating ropes, we had to burn the ends of the rope to keep it from coming apart. Tape would not have stayed on in water.

IWannaKnow
10-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Someone into BDSM would have the knowledge and skills to pull this off.

coastal
10-07-2011, 06:56 PM
Valhall posted a new article on October 4, 2011. Here's a link for anyone (else) who may have missed it:

Rebecca Zahau case: A Dynamic Loading Analysis of the Fall

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/10/04/rebecca-zahau-case-a-dynamic-loading-analysis-of-the-fall/

Thank you, Valhall!

time
10-13-2011, 12:02 PM
Not sure this was ever put int his thread

Lyndsey Philpott, a forensic knotting expert, talks about the Rebecca Zahau case Video

http://drdrew.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/08/knotting-expert-talks-rebecca-zahau-case/?hpt=dr_bn1

Transcripts

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/08/ddhln.01.html


Now, we saw that video there where it looks -- that, to me, looks difficult. But I`ve got a forensic specialist here, Lyndsey Philpott, a knotting expert who worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case.

I`m actually really grateful you`re here, because if it`s possible, show me how. Somebody who had no experience with rope, looking at that video, it seems extraordinary to think that somebody in an altered state perhaps could sit down, never having worked with a rope before, and bind themselves, and do it the way we saw in that video.

LYNDSEY PHILPOTT, FORENSIC KNOTTING EXPERT: It`s a very curious thing to be able to tie yourself in knots. And seeing the way in which the video displayed it, you first of all have to find the halfway point on the line, and then put it over yourself like this.

PINSKY: How would you know to do that? I would not know to do that unless I were a sailor from the 17th century or something. And I`m a young woman in distress. I`m going to think to do that?

PHILPOTT: I really don`t think that anybody could think to do that.

PINSKY: OK.

PHILPOTT: And it`s very difficult for me even as an expert to be able to manipulate these lines in some way so that I can -- you can see it.

PINSKY: And she actually did it behind her back. Then she got it -- but then --

PHILPOTT: And then to take them off there and put them behind her back would be tantamount to contortionist, because you then have to try to figure out where things are going and how they`re going to get there.

And what would be the purpose? What would be the purpose in showing that your hands are tied behind your back? After all is said and done, if you`re going to be committing suicide, aren`t you mainly concerned with asphyxiating or breaking your own neck as a result of that?

PINSKY: And then the feet too were bound, I guess, although I haven`t seen any video on what kind of binding she allegedly did there. That, too, seems very, very bizarre.

PHILPOTT: I haven`t seen anything which indicates the kind of binding around her wrists, nor have I seen anything indicating the kind of knot around her ankles.

PINSKY: And by the way, how about having the knowledge to be able to have the right kind of -- I wouldn`t know what kind of knot to put around a bed to make sure I wouldn`t just fall to the ground. I mean, isn`t even that in itself a little challenging?

PHILPOTT: That is challenging.

PINSKY: And how about the noose? I don`t know how to tie -- how would she (ph) know how to tie a noose?

PHILPOTT: There`s a number of different ways of tying a noose. You can tie one by doing this. But as you can see, if you put the end in the wrong place, that will simply come apart and you`ll be left with nothing.

You have to put it into the right place, and you have to know to put it into the right place so that it would actually stay in position. And then once it does, it`s going to tighten up around the bed post.

Most people will tie lots of knots. If they`re going to tie anything at all, they`ll tie lots of knots.

PINSKY: That makes sense to me. That makes sense to me.

PHILPOTT: They`ll tie lots of the long kind. And she wasn`t doing that.

PINSKY: And that`s not what she was doing, yes.

Well, listen, I really appreciate you being here, because to me this is one of the most mysterious parts of this, is watching an explanation on a video that`s supposed to show us how it was likely that she did it when, to me, it makes it even more mysterious.

IWannaKnow
10-14-2011, 07:59 AM
On the subject of Rebecca's wrist bands being on and the logistics of taking the rope on/off with wrist bands on....doesn't seem to be too much of an issue with the BDSM crowd:
WARNING: Graphic advertisements at link~ BBM
http://www.shibaricon.com/rules.html

BADGES
You must wear your wristband AND badge at all times during Shibaricon. The wristband is designed to be worn for the duration of the event. You will not be permitted to enter any portion of the event without BOTH your badge AND wristband. If you lose your badge or wristband, please contact registration immediately.
In any event as large as Shibaricon, there may be times when individuals who don’t belong attempt to get into the play spaces or classrooms. Prominently displaying your wristband - ON YOUR WRIST - and wearing your name badge helps us quickly detect people who shouldn't be at the event. If you see someone who appears to be too young or has no identification please notify security immediately.

NOT implying that was what Rebecca's wrist bands were, only that wristbands per se do not seem to be an issue with this.....

Interesting photo:
Amazon.com: "The Beauty of Kinbaku: Or everything you ever wanted to know about Japanese erotic bondage when you suddenly realized you didn't speak Japanese" (9780615248769): Master "K": Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ysfizmGqL.@@AMEPARAM@@41ysfizmGqL

I see a resemblence between this:
WARNING - nude model:
http://www.japaneseropeart.com/RopeArt/Ryo_Tekubi/index.html

and the rope tying video located here:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

Interesting:
http://japaneseropeart.com/RopeArt/materials.html
http://japaneseropeart.com/RopeArt/Ritual.html

I see many parallels.....

Mrs. Holmes
10-15-2011, 05:34 PM
I wonder if LE even searched for books in the mansion on rope tying? I wonder if there are books on rope tying at the Arizona home?

Zale
10-17-2011, 02:26 PM
I wonder if LE even searched for books in the mansion on rope tying? I wonder if there are books on rope tying at the Arizona home?

Someone should check into the movie selections in their home or netflix or other video service rental or purchases.

I actually recall a horror movie where a woman sees into the past an Asian woman in the process of hanging herself. The suicidal woman is nude, and binds her hands behind her back and then hangs herself from a stepladder or chair. I don't recall the title of the movie though...

Anyone remember a movie like that?

Maybe if evidence is found where the suspects AS, DR, NR, JS or even RZ is shown to have watched such a movie about hanging nude and self-binding hands, then we can make further conclusions about whether it was suicide or murder.

Betty P
10-19-2011, 06:16 PM
Have to admit my very first impression on reading the news stories of RZ's death was "couple involved in kinky sex bondage games". From the beginning, my assumption was a boyfriend angry w/ his girlfriend over the accidental death of his son lures her into a compromising situation by initiating a sex bondage game, then kills her. MOO

Schmerty_Jones
10-19-2011, 06:40 PM
Have to admit my very first impression on reading the news stories of RZ's death was "couple involved in kinky sex bondage games". From the beginning, my assumption was a boyfriend angry w/ his girlfriend over the accidental death of his son lures her into a compromising situation by initiating a sex bondage game, then kills her. MOO

Interesting thought! I don't think RZ committed suicide! Max's family was hostile ,hateful & out for revenge.MOO.:twocents:

IWannaKnow
10-20-2011, 09:45 AM
Have to admit my very first impression on reading the news stories of RZ's death was "couple involved in kinky sex bondage games". From the beginning, my assumption was a boyfriend angry w/ his girlfriend over the accidental death of his son lures her into a compromising situation by initiating a sex bondage game, then kills her. MOO :goodpost:

I totally agree with your assessment!

Mrs. Holmes
10-20-2011, 04:58 PM
There were some comments that some of the rope ends were taped. So maybe some of this rope had been cut before and used by someone in the house for bondage?

dovebar
10-22-2011, 12:44 AM
There are so many improbable coincidences and conclusions drawn by LE if we are to believe their scenario that it just boggles the mind. Correct me if I mis-remember details BUT:

We are asked to believe that she killed herself not only by performing amazing contortions and all the other things people have pointed out, but by tieing unusual tugboat knots - with a tugboat captain resident on the premises? What a coincidence!

She was hit on the head, according to autopsy, and there was a table leg nearby that had been kicked in, but somehow, at this millionaire's mansion, that was a coincidence! Also, although no other human can stand on a 4-legged table that is missing a leg, AS was able to - what a coincidence!

The dog was kenneled - what a coincidence!

The sister-in-law who loathed her, from the family who blamed her for the child's death, asked to come over for a "chat" the night she died, and a mysterious woman was seen on the property - what a coincidence!

Loud music that might cover an argument was heard, as were screams, but the victim was gagged - just a coincidence! Screaming is heard all the time in this posh neighborhood, right? It must just have been a coincidence!

The couple who lived on the property's guesthouse moved out soon after - quelle coincidence!

There are no cameras where JS claimed to be all night, in the Ronald McDonald house rather than a camera-laden hotel - but that's just a coincidence!

The SD-Coronado police are the unluckiest police force ever, to have so many odd coincidences develop on a multimillion dollar estate - but that's all just a big old coincidence!

dovebar
10-22-2011, 12:53 AM
I forgot the amazing coincidence that JS and some of the women left here have a history of violent arguments, with accusations about choking.

But that's surely just a coincidence.

Kind of like how OJ had a history of battering Nicole. That was just a coincidence too.

arielilane
11-27-2011, 09:27 PM
Water sport tow rope. Who would have the strength to utilize such a rope as this?

Betty P
07-19-2013, 02:37 PM
I still have many questions about the rope used. SDSO brushed off questions or never followed up on many key items of evidence, simply saying "it's a suicide" we don't have to investigate anymore". But a real death investigation hasn't been done and questions about the rope are critical.

How does LE know it was retrieved from the garage? Should credit card records/receipts be searched to see if any interested parties may have purchased it prior?

The house has been completely remodeled, so there's not likely any evidence left, but is there anything about the evidence collected that could show others handled the rope? Certainly some more accurate reconstructions could be staged to help understand more.

Was the rope a type that, unlike the slippery silky rope used in the SDSO demonstration, would stick in place once it was knotted? If RZ, per the SDSO re-enactment, was able to bind her wrists in front, then slip one hand out while moving both hands behind her back, then reinsert her hand to tighten - wouldn't that be difficult to do with this type of rope, with its rough surface?

bourne
07-19-2013, 02:51 PM
I still have many questions about the rope used. SDSO brushed off questions or never followed up on many key items of evidence, simply saying "it's a suicide" we don't have to investigate anymore". But a real death investigation hasn't been done and questions about the rope are critical.

How does LE know it was retrieved from the garage? Should credit card records/receipts be searched to see if any interested parties may have purchased it prior?

The house has been completely remodeled, so there's not likely any evidence left, but is there anything about the evidence collected that could show others handled the rope? Certainly some more accurate reconstructions could be staged to help understand more.

Was the rope a type that, unlike the slippery silky rope used in the SDSO demonstration, would stick in place once it was knotted? If RZ, per the SDSO re-enactment, was able to bind her wrists in front, then slip one hand out while moving both hands behind her back, then reinsert her hand to tighten - wouldn't that be difficult to do with this type of rope, with its rough surface?

Forensically, the knots that were tied could be examined to identify the person who tied those knots about Rebecca's wrists, ankles, bedpost, etc. Knots made may be as singularly specific as a person's fingerprint. I think if investigators compare the knots that were used on Rebecca and the bedpost to knots tied by defendants on their boats or household, a clear pattern would emerge and point directly to one or more of the defendants.

inthedark14
07-19-2013, 02:54 PM
I'm also very curious about "shavings" from the cutting of the rope. This is never mentioned and none can be seen in the photos from the hanging room.

Where was the rope cut if not in that room?

Betty P
07-19-2013, 02:57 PM
Forensically, the knots that were tied could be examined to identify the person who tied those knots about Rebecca's wrists, ankles, bedpost, etc. Knots made may be as singularly specific as a person's fingerprint. I think if investigators compare the knots that were used on Rebecca and the bedpost to knots tied by defendants on their boats or household, a clear pattern would emerge and point directly to one or more of the defendants.

Another question I have about the knots and rope - if, as SDSO alleges, RZ had the skills and practice to bind her arms, legs and neck in this intricate manner, why did she supposedly have to go retrieve a boat tow rope from the garage to do so? If, as some allege, she practiced this type of rope tying as a hobby, why were there no other ropes at the crime scene, in the house, etc? There were no other ropes in the house, or one would assume SDSO would have taken them as evidence.

So how does one become an expert at tying these intricate knots, cutting specific lengths of rope, etc. without ever having practiced it before?

*Lash*
07-19-2013, 03:08 PM
I believe Adam was a tugboat operator.

Here is a site about tugboats with an interesting picture of the type of knot commonly used. The rope pattern on the H-bit sure looks familiar.

35893


http://tugboatsonline.com/boat_yard/rope_boats/hawsertowing.htm

*Lash*
07-19-2013, 03:23 PM
SDSO's explanation -

How did she learn these complex knots?
We don’t believe she did. These knots were not as complex as they have been made out to be, which is what we discovered when we attempted to recreate the knots on Rebecca’s wrists. Simply stated, this is one of those questions which will most likely never be answered with any certainty.

Were there prints and DNA on the rope?
Rebecca’s DNA was found on the rope, particularly in areas that would have to be manipulated to tie the knots. Only Rebecca’s DNA was found on these items other than one “artifact,” which is a fragment of material that could be DNA, but does not contain enough information to determine who, or what, it came from (animals and plants also have DNA that can be left behind). The rope could not be fingerprinted.

Red = convenient pattern in this case.

Dark red = another convenient pattern, DNA that was to small to be analyzed.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

Betty P
07-19-2013, 03:24 PM
I'm bringing down the link to Dr. Drew's interview with Lindsey Philpott, the rope expert who worked on the Jon Benet Ramsey case.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2011/09/08/knotting-expert-talks-rebecca-zahau-case?hpt=dr_bn1

Philpott agrees it would be extremely difficult for someone with no experience to tie these knots, particularly a distressed woman preparing to commit suicide.

Note also the difference between the type of rope used by Philpott and that used to tie RZ. It's not the same type of rope. The tow rope is much stiffer, more coarse an would seem difficult to work with.

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/mackpro/Becky%202013/becky_wrists_1_lores_zps76ec0218.jpg

Betty P
07-19-2013, 03:33 PM
SDSO's explanation -

How did she learn these complex knots?
We don’t believe she did. These knots were not as complex as they have been made out to be, which is what we discovered when we attempted to recreate the knots on Rebecca’s wrists. Simply stated, this is one of those questions which will most likely never be answered with any certainty.

Were there prints and DNA on the rope?
Rebecca’s DNA was found on the rope, particularly in areas that would have to be manipulated to tie the knots. Only Rebecca’s DNA was found on these items other than one “artifact,” which is a fragment of material that could be DNA, but does not contain enough information to determine who, or what, it came from (animals and plants also have DNA that can be left behind). The rope could not be fingerprinted.

Red = convenient pattern in this case.

Dark red = another convenient pattern, DNA that was to small to be analyzed.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

It explains why there was tape residue on RZ's legs, but none in the room or house. Rope is easier to handle than tape when you're wearing gloves. Someone realized that using tape to bind RZ was cumbersome with gloves and made the switch to rope. Hence, no chance of leaving DNA.

IIRC, on expert said rope is a difficult material for finding DNA traces.

http://trialwatchnetwork.com/death-investigation-rebecca-zahau-analysis/

bourne
07-19-2013, 04:15 PM
Another question I have about the knots and rope - if, as SDSO alleges, RZ had the skills and practice to bind her arms, legs and neck in this intricate manner, why did she supposedly have to go retrieve a boat tow rope from the garage to do so? If, as some allege, she practiced this type of rope tying as a hobby, why were there no other ropes at the crime scene, in the house, etc? There were no other ropes in the house, or one would assume SDSO would have taken them as evidence.

So how does one become an expert at tying these intricate knots, cutting specific lengths of rope, etc. without ever having practiced it before?

I think it's ludicrous for LE to make allegations that Rebecca had the skills and practice to bind herself without actually finding any physical evidence to support their allegations.

As you say, if Rebecca regularly used ropes to bind herself, you'd find more ropes laying around the house. So where are all those ropes she used?

Additionally, one would think if people who enjoyed rope tying would use ropes WITHOUT a handle -- for both aesthetic reasons and because the handle at the end of the rope just makes rope tying most impractical and inconvenient. The handle gets in the way of tying the rope! So why out of all those ropes Rebecca supposed could have used since rope-tying is her hobby did she go and used a long tugboat rope that one would need to cut into pieces? Why not use the ropes she supposedly already had laying around, ones which would have been easy to tie, given what I would presume to be much shorter lengths?

IF in fact Rebecca wanted to commit suicide, why would she go through all that trouble to find a LENGTHY tugboat rope, then get several knives in order to cut the rope with when she presumably had used shorter ropes before to bind or play with in prior occasions? That is illogical. A distressed person doesn't make things HARDER for themselves. They find EASY WAYS OUT. That's a simple fact of human psychology. SDLE needs a psychology expert in their department. BADLY.

*Lash*
07-19-2013, 04:19 PM
Forensic Expert Examines Zahau Case

bourne
07-19-2013, 04:28 PM
I'm bringing down the link to Dr. Drew's interview with Lindsey Philpott, the rope expert who worked on the Jon Benet Ramsey case.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2011/09/08/knotting-expert-talks-rebecca-zahau-case?hpt=dr_bn1

Philpott agrees it would be extremely difficult for someone with no experience to tie these knots, particularly a distressed woman preparing to commit suicide.

Note also the difference between the type of rope used by Philpott and that used to tie RZ. It's not the same type of rope. The tow rope is much stiffer, more coarse an would seem difficult to work with.

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/mackpro/Becky%202013/becky_wrists_1_lores_zps76ec0218.jpg

Thanks for these links!

I just saw the pic of the bindings around Rebecca's wrists. Her fingernails and hands seem to be steeped in grime. I'll bet anything the grime in her hands and in the crevices of her fingernails, just like the heavy dirt under her feet and between her toes, are soil from the courtyard. This suggests she was barefoot and soaking wet, running away from her attackers, and someone jumped or knocked her down and dragged her while she dug at the soil with her nails in resistance. Nobody gets their hands & feet that dirty when their hands & feet are dry. So here's evidence suggesting strongly Rebecca was ambushed and attacked in the shower because had she been suicidal, even a suicidal person would DRY THEMSELVES WITH A TOWEL before hanging because WATER dripping from their body would make it hard for them to put noose around their slippery neck with their wet hands and the slippery hands and body would make it difficult for her to bind her own wrists and ankles.

A scenario I can easily picture is that after Rebecca stopped texting her sister at around 9:30pm Tuesday, she decided to shower to head to bed. The attackers surprised a nude Rebecca in the shower. Dragged her out of shower, maybe pulling her hair (police reports indicated there were big clumps of hair found in shower and that Rebecca didn't even put a tampon in when she was having her menses). But Rebecca managed to escape her attackers and ran into the courtyard, screaming for HELP and that's when ear-witnesses in her neighborhood heard a woman screaming for HELP. Maybe Rebecca even expected Adam to help, but instead he joined the other murderer(s) and helped complete the torture, assault, murder, and cover-up.

Don't forget Nina claimed she texted Rebecca at 9:40pm (even though Rebecca's phone records indicate Nina had texted at 10:40pm), and after this Nina's suspicious text asking to "come over and talk with" Rebecca about Max in the middle of the night, Rebecca NEVER used her phone again except for someone (likely Rebecca's murderers) retrieving her voicemails at 12:45am Wed and deleting Jonah's voicemail. So for all intents and purposes, we can reasonably say that Rebecca was either assaulted or in the process of being assaulted right after Nina's 9:40pm or 10:40pm text message. Coincidence? I believe NOT.

STS-135
07-19-2013, 05:18 PM
For re-creation, I used brand-new, straight out of bag two-rider tow rope used for water-skiing, Jet-skis, etc, boating. It did not kink up and knotted fairly easily, but I found it extremely difficult to do tidy knots as appeared in LE demo. Also, difficult to deal with that length of rope when knotting, and wrist bindings were equal, suggesting they were done first.
I recall reading that there was some sort of covering material with some sort of label still attached to one end of what to me too appears to be a marine tow rope - specially in a seafront community. The covering and label alone should help us identify where such a rope could've come from, if not necessarily how it got there; but just knowing what the rope was intended to be used for might help identify who could've had access to it and where. The hard part, of course, would be how to prove it without LE support... :(

Does anyone else remember seeing the rope's description and photos with the covering and what appeared to be a warning or instruction label of sorts?

Waiting to catch up on possible replies on Monday is going to be rough, because I'm not going to be anywhere near a computer this weekend; and I strongly believe that the rope alone is not only central to this travesty of a case, but potentially also one of only two or three clues which could still lead to a new set of discoveries and new evidence.

cynic
07-19-2013, 06:41 PM
I recall reading that there was some sort of covering material with some sort of label still attached to one end of what to me too appears to be a marine tow rope - specially in a seafront community. The covering and label alone should help us identify where such a rope could've come from, if not necessarily how it got there; but just knowing what the rope was intended to be used for might help identify who could've had access to it and where. The hard part, of course, would be how to prove it without LE support... :(

Does anyone else remember seeing the rope's description and photos with the covering and what appeared to be a warning or instruction label of sorts?

Waiting to catch up on possible replies on Monday is going to be rough, because I'm not going to be anywhere near a computer this weekend; and I strongly believe that the rope alone is not only central to this travesty of a case, but potentially also one of only two or three clues which could still lead to a new set of discoveries and new evidence.

I don’t recall seeing any pictures but we have this description from the AR:
“The decedent hand and feet were bound with an orange colored rope.”
[SNIP]
“All the rope referred to in the description of the neck ligature and the bindings of the hands and feet are similar in appearance. Unless otherwise specified it is reddish-orange, braided, synthetic, and 7/16 in diameter.”
[SNIP]
“The right ankle has six loops and the left has eight. There is a knot on the proximal right lower leg exiting anteriority. There is a second similar knot on the left ankle. Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope, which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. There is a warning on the yellow handle stating among other things that it is “...intended only for towing up to a maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube.”

Betty P
07-19-2013, 08:56 PM
In any scenario, the binding with tape and 4 blows to the head also have to be considered. IMO, the attack played out over a period of time, giving the perps time to plan and organize the crime scene before leaving. I think this was discussed before, but it seems possible RZ was trapped and bound with tape to a chair (possibly the one in the bedroom that was tipped over). Someone may have hit her on the head while demanding answers about MZ's death.

RZ's estimated time of death was between 1 and 3 am. That left a lot of time for assault, killing, clean up and staging of the scene.

time
07-20-2013, 11:06 AM
I don't see a good place to put this, but someone brought up the gloves yesterday. Neither the black nitrile/latex glove nor the black gloves seem to appear on these diagrams. Does anyone remember if their position/exact location was posted?

*Lash*
07-20-2013, 11:46 AM
I don't see a good place to put this, but someone brought up the gloves yesterday. Neither the black nitrile/latex glove nor the black gloves seem to appear on these diagrams. Does anyone remember if their position/exact location was posted?

From the SDSO Nov 17th, 2011 briefing. Lab Director Grubb stated the black gardening gloves were found from a table at the scene. Item #2 is not shown anywhere in the diagrams.

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:
Real quick. Was there mixed DNA found anywhere else in terms of the -- I think Ms. Bremner said on the show there was mixed DNA found on gloves, on the bed frame, and on the knife. Is there mixed DNA on those items?

GRUBB:
I'll run this down for you fairly quickly. Overwhelmingly, in 10 of the 11 rope segments -- err -- samples from the rope was Rebecca Zahau’s DNA that was found. In one of those samples there was a fragment of DNA from some other source, absolutely un- interpretable. There was a low level of DNA un-interpretable on the large knife from the bedroom floor. There was a low-level mixture of DNA not interpretable on a doorknob to the balcony. Those are the mixtures that I think she was -- and the black gardening gloves that were recovered from a table at the scene? Again, a low level mixture, un- interpretable.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

time
07-20-2013, 01:12 PM
Hmm... what about the one black latex (I say nitrile) glove, inside and out. And, do they ever say DNA was looked for inside the pair of gloves found on the table?

I see we discussed this before:

Rebecca's Death - Page 13 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Zahau Death Investigation - Page 4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I think pinning down that one black latex glove is important as far as DNA. Sometimes what is omitted is the most interesting. And, frankly, I'm not nearly as concerned with those black garden gloves.

Who has just one black latex glove lying around anyway?

inthedark14
07-20-2013, 02:46 PM
Hmm... what about the one black latex (I say nitrile) glove, inside and out. And, do they ever say DNA was looked for inside the pair of gloves found on the table?

I see we discussed this before:

Rebecca's Death - Page 13 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8323181)
Zahau Death Investigation - Page 4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9145520)


I think pinning down that one black latex glove is important as far as DNA. Sometimes what is omitted is the most interesting. And, frankly, I'm not nearly as concerned with those black garden gloves.

Who has just one black latex glove lying around anyway?

It's also interesting to note that nowhere on the search warrant were any boxes of gloves, black or otherwise, taken from the home. It is logical to assume that if there was one black latex glove in the hanging room, it had to come from somewhere in the house, and therefore a box of gloves should have been found.

ALWAYS MOO

time
07-20-2013, 02:57 PM
It's also interesting to note that nowhere on the search warrant were any boxes of gloves, black or otherwise, taken from the home. It is logical to assume that if there was one black latex glove in the hanging room, it had to come from somewhere in the house, and therefore a box of gloves should have been found.

ALWAYS MOO

Yeah, I agree! And, they conveniently forgot to mention it's too odd that only one latex glove was found, let alone, look for a box of gloves or where that one came from.

Betty P
07-20-2013, 03:04 PM
It's also interesting to note that nowhere on the search warrant were any boxes of gloves, black or otherwise, taken from the home. It is logical to assume that if there was one black latex glove in the hanging room, it had to come from somewhere in the house, and therefore a box of gloves should have been found.

ALWAYS MOO

or it could have been brought from elsewhere.

STS-135
07-20-2013, 03:33 PM
:floorlaugh: Thank you!! I needed to giggle about now!! Seriously sounds far fetched that someone would worry about foot prints on a balcony if they were foing to jump off said balcony to end their life.
If AS tossed RZ over the railing, he probably wasn't even thinking about footprints. He was, however, likely afraid to be seen on the balcony tying a knot or tossing her body. And, if the he turned the light(s) in the room off prior to pushing her over, he wouldn't have even seen the dust so late in the night. IMHO, AS just got lucky in this respect.

Betty P
07-20-2013, 03:49 PM
Questions about the gloves:

1. There's never been an answer, that I can find, that explains the presence of the gloves at the crime scene. What possible use would they be to RZ? Her fingerprints and/or DNA were left on the paintbrush and many other items in the room. Why would she have gloves and why wouldn't she use them.

2. Why were there 2 different types of gloves, one latex, the other a pair of gardening gloves? Why would she need to different types of gloves, especially if she had no use for them?

3. Where did the gardening gloves come from? Where were they stored and would someone have to go outside the house to retrieve them?

I'll add my own answer for the first question. The perpetrators of RZ's murder needed some way to explain the fact that some of the items at the crime scene had no fingerprints at all, not even RZ's - they had been wiped clean. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but hasn't it been speculated in the past that at least one or some of the possible perps has a history of substance abuse and may have been under the influence that night?

bourne
07-20-2013, 06:02 PM
Questions about the gloves:

1. There's never been an answer, that I can find, that explains the presence of the gloves at the crime scene. What possible use would they be to RZ? Her fingerprints and/or DNA were left on the paintbrush and many other items in the room. Why would she have gloves and why wouldn't she use them.

2. Why were there 2 different types of gloves, one latex, the other a pair of gardening gloves? Why would she need to different types of gloves, especially if she had no use for them?

3. Where did the gardening gloves come from? Where were they stored and would someone have to go outside the house to retrieve them?

I'll add my own answer for the first question. The perpetrators of RZ's murder needed some way to explain the fact that some of the items at the crime scene had no fingerprints at all, not even RZ's - they had been wiped clean. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but hasn't it been speculated in the past that at least one or some of the possible perps has a history of substance abuse and may have been under the influence that night?

Excellent Q's! Why the need for gloves if Rebecca used her bare hands and left prints/DNA on various items such as bedpost, one knife, rope, paintbrush, etc.? The only thing that makes sense is that some drunken, raging, vengeful murderer went overboard in "staging items" in this "overkill" of a crime scene.

bourne
07-20-2013, 06:05 PM
I don’t recall seeing any pictures but we have this description from the AR:
“The decedent hand and feet were bound with an orange colored rope.”
[SNIP]
“All the rope referred to in the description of the neck ligature and the bindings of the hands and feet are similar in appearance. Unless otherwise specified it is reddish-orange, braided, synthetic, and 7/16 in diameter.”
[SNIP]
“The right ankle has six loops and the left has eight. There is a knot on the proximal right lower leg exiting anteriority. There is a second similar knot on the left ankle. Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope, which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. There is a warning on the yellow handle stating among other things that it is “...intended only for towing up to a maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube.”


YES! And is the looping technique (six on right and eight on left, and then a knot on the right and then second knot on left) typical of the type of nautical rope-tying that Adam or Dina or Nina does while tugboating and/or yachting?

bourne
07-20-2013, 06:15 PM
If AS tossed RZ over the railing, he probably wasn't even thinking about footprints. He was, however, likely afraid to be seen on the balcony tying a knot or tossing her body. And, if the he turned the light(s) in the room off prior to pushing her over, he wouldn't have even seen the dust so late in the night. IMHO, AS just got lucky in this respect.

You're correct, except that remember Dina used to reside yearly at the Spreckels mansion for vacation prior to Rebecca becoming Jonah's gf. So Dina of all the defendants would know EXACTLY how dust accumulates on the balcony during the times she and Jonah did not spend time at the Spreckels.

Also, remember by Dina and Nina and Jonah's own verbal statements given to the police, Dina had DISAPPEARED from the hospital Tuesday from 6am to at least 6pm (according to Jonah) and 8pm (according to Dina herself). So Dina had plenty of time to SCOPE OUT the Spreckels balcony and murder room to determine where to lay the instruments of murder out (rope, knives, paintbrushes, gloves, etc.) It would be reasonable to assume that Dina would have seen the dusty balcony. We know that the murderers could not be caught "dusting" the balcony as it is visible by the public and neighbors so they did not clean up the balcony.

Moreover, since Rebecca was OUT OF THE Spreckels Mansion the entire day of Tuesday until 8pm when she returned with Adam, AND according to Sheriff Gore, someone used Rebecca's laptop and home computer to search for porn in the mid-afternoon on Tuesday, that could have been when this sicko murderer(s) snuck into the Spreckels mansion and planted the porn searches to incriminate Rebecca.

IQuestion
07-20-2013, 10:29 PM
Excellent Q's! Why the need for gloves if Rebecca used her bare hands and left prints/DNA on various items such as bedpost, one knife, rope, paintbrush, etc.? The only thing that makes sense is that some drunken, raging, vengeful murderer went overboard in "staging items" in this "overkill" of a crime scene.

MidKnight Black Nitrile Gloves from MicroFlex are also well-suited for law enforcement professionals. Black police gloves are the preferred choice because they allow you to rapidly identify light-colored substances when searching vehicles, crime scenes, etc. These disposable black exam gloves provide a strong barrier and offer superior protection. We recommend them for police officers, drug enforcement agents,....http://www.penncare.net/blog/index.php/2011/01/black-nitrile-gloves/
I did see a photo of police officers in the courtyard wearing black-nitrile gloves. Are the officers supposed to remove their gloves and give them to the evidence collection team when they are through? If so, it appears someone may have simply misplaced a glove? Just my thought.

bourne
07-21-2013, 09:27 AM
MidKnight Black Nitrile Gloves from MicroFlex are also well-suited for law enforcement professionals. Black police gloves are the preferred choice because they allow you to rapidly identify light-colored substances when searching vehicles, crime scenes, etc. These disposable black exam gloves provide a strong barrier and offer superior protection. We recommend them for police officers, drug enforcement agents,....http://www.penncare.net/blog/index.php/2011/01/black-nitrile-gloves/
I did see a photo of police officers in the courtyard wearing black-nitrile gloves. Are the officers supposed to remove their gloves and give them to the evidence collection team when they are through? If so, it appears someone may have simply misplaced a glove? Just my thought.

From what I recall, there were two pairs of gloves found at the crime scene, and one glove that was found lying elsewhere in the Spreckels mansion. I could see, with some careless LE allegedly leaving his own bootprint at the murder balcony, that this same cop or another one within this negligent department, might have also left a glove at the mansion. However, there were two other pairs of gloves which I very much doubt were left at the crime scene BY ACCIDENT by LE. I believe these two pairs of gloves were further "staging items" by the lunatic murderers in their "overkill" of Rebecca.

time
07-21-2013, 11:33 AM
From what I recall, there were two pairs of gloves found at the crime scene, and one glove that was found lying elsewhere in the Spreckels mansion. I could see, with some careless LE allegedly leaving his own bootprint at the murder balcony, that this same cop or another one within this negligent department, might have also left a glove at the mansion. However, there were two other pairs of gloves which I very much doubt were left at the crime scene BY ACCIDENT by LE. I believe these two pairs of gloves were further "staging items" by the lunatic murderers in their "overkill" of Rebecca.

I'm a little confused. I believe there was one pair of gloves and one single glove. If there was another 'pair', where? Don't mind my Sunday morning rhyming :)

The pair was black garden gloves and I think found outside.

The one glove was black nitrile/latex and I think found int he balcony room.

I see your point about staging, very interesting. However, why does it appear LE didn't mention it much (if at all) after the search warrant if it in fact, would possibly help explain suicide. Unless I'm missing something, I tend to believe that black nitrile glove was mistakenly left behind by the killer and LE doesn't want to deal with the question of DNA.

bourne
07-21-2013, 03:32 PM
I'm a little confused. I believe there was one pair of gloves and one single glove. If there was another 'pair', where? Don't mind my Sunday morning rhyming :)

The pair was black garden gloves and I think found outside.

The one glove was black nitrile/latex and I think found int he balcony room.

I see your point about staging, very interesting. However, why does it appear LE didn't mention it much (if at all) after the search warrant if it in fact, would possibly help explain suicide. Unless I'm missing something, I tend to believe that black nitrile glove was mistakenly left behind by the killer and LE doesn't want to deal with the question of DNA.

I haven't revisited the evidence files of this case in a long time. But I'm sure someone here can check and see how many gloves (pairs or single glove) were entered into evidence by LE.

Regardless, if what you're saying is true, that the murderer(s) had inadvertently left the gloves they wore at the crime scene, then it should be easy to forensically analyze the glove or gloves for their DNA, and if the DNA/prints match anyone other than Rebecca, then, by god, you have solved the case!

I suppose the point is: Did the Zahau investigators get those gloves you believe Rebecca's murderer(s) left behind from LE? And had the Zahau investigators forensically examined all the evidence (including the gloves) for DNA/prints, etc.?

To me, the fact that the Zahaus didn't have a press conference stating that they found DNA/prints of one of the defendants in the gloves or any of the other evidence (knives, paintbrushes, rope, etc.) means that they found no other person's DNA/prints on those items except for Rebecca's. So I would discount the gloves as being worn by the murderer(s).

time
07-21-2013, 05:02 PM
bourne ... if they had ALL the evidence then why did Rudoy and Fleck file a complaint to get access to it (May 2013). I have the feeling in cases deemed 'not criminal' that LE is very loosey goosey about all this anyway. I do not think they allowed the Zahau's or their attorneys to examine all the evidence, let alone restest anything. Plus, I just don't see where anything has been reported on the one black latex glove about DNA.

Zahau Family Sues County for Additional Evidence - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

bourne
07-21-2013, 06:18 PM
bourne ... if they had ALL the evidence then why did Rudoy and Fleck file a complaint to get access to it (May 2013). I have the feeling in cases deemed 'not criminal' that LE is very loosey goosey about all this anyway. I do not think they allowed the Zahau's or their attorneys to examine all the evidence, let alone restest anything. Plus, I just don't see where anything has been reported on the one black latex glove about DNA.

Zahau Family Sues County for Additional Evidence - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209218)

I never said the Zahaus had ALL the evidence. I questioned whether they had the gloves as evidence, and if they did, I would hope they would have examined them forensically. Nowhere did I read in the MSM articles whereby the civil suit the Zahaus brought against the SD county LE and ME offices that they sought the GLOVES as the evidence that were missing in the Zahau files. What they did specifically ask for were the actual 911 tape of Adam for which there was missing audio, and Rebecca's cellphone and computer. If you can direct me to where the Zahaus sought GLOVES, that'd be helpful. Until then, I am going with my educated opinion that the Zahaus received all other evidence (including GLOVES) except those they specified in the lawsuit.

time
07-21-2013, 06:39 PM
I never said the Zahaus had ALL the evidence. I questioned whether they had the gloves as evidence, and if they did, I would hope they would have examined them forensically. Nowhere did I read in the MSM articles whereby the civil suit the Zahaus brought against the SD county LE and ME offices that they sought the GLOVES as the evidence that were missing in the Zahau files. What they did specifically ask for were the actual 911 tape of Adam for which there was missing audio, and Rebecca's cellphone and computer. If you can direct me to where the Zahaus sought GLOVES, that'd be helpful. Until then, I am going with my educated opinion that the Zahaus received all other evidence (including GLOVES) except those they specified in the lawsuit.


They asked for access to all technical evidence including ALL DNA evidence, plus, they asked for all forensic evidence - I think that would cover the gloves.

BBM - It's just my opinion, but I don't think there is anyway they would have actually given them physical evidence like the gloves. They didn't get Rebecca's personal belongings back. It doesn't even sound like they got all transcripts, etc.

bourne
07-21-2013, 07:29 PM
They asked for access to all technical evidence including ALL DNA evidence, plus, they asked for all forensic evidence - I think that would cover the gloves.

BBM - It's just my opinion, but I don't think there is anyway they would have actually given them physical evidence like the gloves. They didn't get Rebecca's personal belongings back. It doesn't even sound like they got all transcripts, etc.

Well, if the Zahau investigators didn't get the gloves, etc. then obviously, they wouldn't have been able to forensically examine them.

I've taken the liberty of asking an insider whether they did or not. When I receive an answer, I'll let you know.

Until then, I believe it's highly unlikely that the murderer(s) would have been so absentminded and careless as to leave gloves that they had actually worn to commit Rebecca's murder at the crime scene. But then, hey, there have been "dumb criminals" and that's why some of them get caught. Hopefully that's the case here. Honestly though, if the murder was premeditated, and I believe it was -- brewing and stewing in the murderer(s)' mind for a long time, then I'm almost 100% certain this murderer would not be so negligent as to leave self-incriminating evidence behind. That's my honest assessment.

bourne
07-21-2013, 07:53 PM
I just spoke with a friend who works in law enforcement. He says the Zahaus would not have received any evidence apart from Rebecca's own personal belongings due to "chain of custody" and other legalities. So Zahaus would not have received the gloves or rope or any of the other physical evidence that is not personally owned by Rebecca.

But then, if you think about it, if the LE truly believed Rebecca committed suicide, then the ropes, knives, paintbrushes, gloves, etc. that she was presumed to have used in her own suicide should by its very definition be hers, right?

Anyhow, that's what my friend the LE says. So perhaps when the Zahaus finally get their hands on the physical evidence incl. the gloves, they'll be able to check for DNA/prints. Maybe you're right. Maybe the murderer(s) were dumb enough to leave the gloves they wore to commit the crime behind. *shrugs*

time
07-21-2013, 08:00 PM
In my mind the murderer was stupid (and, I still can't believe SDSO wants us to believe any of it, they just know they can get away with it).

The whole scene LOOKS like a cold blooded, rage fueled murder with a lot of anger and intentional humiliation.

The murderer was stupid enough to write that note on the door too.

If there were two people there, who knows if one was cleaning up while the other was doing something else and later...oops, we forgot something. I guess it could also be that a glove was thrown in there to throw things off and complete the staging. Either way, the glove is forensically significant. I still say if it had Rebecca's DNA in it SDSO would have been shouting it from the rooftop. If no DNA, then that seems like a clue also. It's silly to think Rebecca went and got one black latex glove to paint the message on the door.

One other note: We don't know just how careless or not the murderer really was because no one other than SDSO has examined all the evidence. As far as we know they shoved that one black gove under the rug, so to speak, and decided not to test for any DNA. That way it couldn't have contradicted their theory. If they hid testing like that it would be much bigger trouble for them. Plus, IIRC they never asked for a sample of Dina's DNA, did they?

IQuestion
07-22-2013, 01:04 AM
I haven't revisited the evidence files of this case in a long time. But I'm sure someone here can check and see how many gloves (pairs or single glove) were entered into evidence by LE.

Regardless, if what you're saying is true, that the murderer(s) had inadvertently left the gloves they wore at the crime scene, then it should be easy to forensically analyze the glove or gloves for their DNA, and if the DNA/prints match anyone other than Rebecca, then, by god, you have solved the case!

I suppose the point is: Did the Zahau investigators get those gloves you believe Rebecca's murderer(s) left behind from LE? And had the Zahau investigators forensically examined all the evidence (including the gloves) for DNA/prints, etc.?

To me, the fact that the Zahaus didn't have a press conference stating that they found DNA/prints of one of the defendants in the gloves or any of the other evidence (knives, paintbrushes, rope, etc.) means that they found no other person's DNA/prints on those items except for Rebecca's. So I would discount the gloves as being worn by the murderer(s).
BOURNE & TIME I'm just going to cut in for a second, ok? On the first Dr. Phil show Anne Bremner DID SAY there is mixed DNA on several items including the BED POST AND GLOVES AND KNIVES etc. The excerpt begins at 1:36 of this video link,
DrPZ 1D - YouTube
Since a lot of info has transpired over the last 2 years, it took me a while to find it. She (AB) also said SDSO failed to test DNA from several people...go figure?

bourne
07-22-2013, 09:18 AM
BOURNE & TIME I'm just going to cut in for a second, ok? On the first Dr. Phil show Anne Bremner DID SAY there is mixed DNA on several items including the BED POST AND GLOVES AND KNIVES etc. The excerpt begins at 1:36 of this video link,
DrPZ 1D - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RLwbp6ITQs)
Since a lot of info has transpired over the last 2 years, it took me a while to find it. She (AB) also said SDSO failed to test DNA from several people...go figure?

LOL @ IQuestion. Of course you can interject. Our minor squabble over gloves, to me, is very silly. Your point is well-taken but I don't think that resolves the basic dispute we were having which is, do you believe that the murderer(s) left the gloves they worn to murder Rebecca at the crime scene?

It's reasonable to wonder how absolutely inane the murderers could be to forget the gloves they were wearing to commit a heinous crime when it appears that those are the ONLY items they should have remembered to take with him as they exit the Spreckels mansion. Besides their "pink wristlet" and "big black bag" and their own bodies, there was NOTHING ELSE they need to take OUT of the mansion except the gloves they wore!

To me, even if the murderer(s) had FORGOTTEN and CARELESSLY left the glove(s) at the crime scene, they would have double-checked once they left the mansion and looked at their bag/hands and realized by golly, they had left our glove(s) at the crime scene, and could always have GONE BACK to the mansion which was within walking distance to Dina's home and get those incriminating gloves. It was still dark out and there were many hours in the late morning until 6am when Adam allegedly found Rebecca hanging...

Anyhow, we all have our own ways of interpreting and speculating. :rockon:

*Lash*
07-22-2013, 10:40 AM
Someone asked about the rope description. I found this in Rule's book.

“The towrope was seven-sixteenths of an inch thick, and the handle had a warning that read, “Intended only for towing up to a maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.”

time
07-22-2013, 07:40 PM
BOURNE & TIME I'm just going to cut in for a second, ok? On the first Dr. Phil show Anne Bremner DID SAY there is mixed DNA on several items including the BED POST AND GLOVES AND KNIVES etc. The excerpt begins at 1:36 of this video link,
DrPZ 1D - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RLwbp6ITQs)
Since a lot of info has transpired over the last 2 years, it took me a while to find it. She (AB) also said SDSO failed to test DNA from several people...go figure?


Thanks you... I just can't tell if this is all three gloves or the pair of gloves. Yeh, and who would they compare DNA to even if they did claim they had it? I'm not automatically buying SDSO's explanation that DNA testing can't yield any informative results either. Mixed DNA is typable, but I think they also claimed it was degraded?

defense101
07-22-2013, 10:15 PM
It's also interesting to note that nowhere on the search warrant were any boxes of gloves, black or otherwise, taken from the home. It is logical to assume that if there was one black latex glove in the hanging room, it had to come from somewhere in the house, and therefore a box of gloves should have been found.

ALWAYS MOOI use john frieda hair coloring, its latex gloves are black and as I only use one when coloring my hair I always have an extra one on hand, that may explain why there may not have been a box of gloves...maybe

defense101
07-22-2013, 10:23 PM
I don’t recall seeing any pictures but we have this description from the AR:
“The decedent hand and feet were bound with an orange colored rope.”
[SNIP]
“All the rope referred to in the description of the neck ligature and the bindings of the hands and feet are similar in appearance. Unless otherwise specified it is reddish-orange, braided, synthetic, and 7/16 in diameter.”
[SNIP]
“The right ankle has six loops and the left has eight. There is a knot on the proximal right lower leg exiting anteriority. There is a second similar knot on the left ankle. Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope, which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. There is a warning on the yellow handle stating among other things that it is “...intended only for towing up to a maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube.”
BBM This is what I have trouble with, would someone who was chasing her take the time to loop the rope through the handle with a struggling woman, or was she strangled prior to hanging thus making it easier to accomplish this?

Betty P
07-22-2013, 11:52 PM
BBM This is what I have trouble with, would someone who was chasing her take the time to loop the rope through the handle with a struggling woman, or was she strangled prior to hanging thus making it easier to accomplish this?

In Rebecca's autopsy report, the ME concluded she was alive at the time of hanging. Dr.Cyril Wecht suggested that, because of the four blows to her head, she may have been alive but unconscious just prior to the hanging.

It seems the most likely she was bound then.

time
07-23-2013, 11:40 AM
I use john frieda hair coloring, its latex gloves are black and as I only use one when coloring my hair I always have an extra one on hand, that may explain why there may not have been a box of gloves...maybe

That's interesting, but who would be coloring their hair in the mansion? I can't see it would be Rebecca or XZ for obvious reasons.

defense101
07-23-2013, 11:56 AM
In Rebecca's autopsy report, the ME concluded she was alive at the time of hanging. Dr.Cyril Wecht suggested that, because of the four blows to her head, she may have been alive but unconscious just prior to the hanging.

It seems the most likely she was bound then.But do you think they would take the time to pull the cord all the way through the handle? I can't see it myself, believe me, I am in the this is a murder opinion but this is something that doesn't seem likely to me. Wouldn't they just wrap the cord around her ankles and tie it together if she was unconscious?

Carioca
07-23-2013, 12:29 PM
But do you think they would take the time to pull the cord all the way through the handle? I can't see it myself, believe me, I am in the this is a murder opinion but this is something that doesn't seem likely to me. Wouldn't they just wrap the cord around her ankles and tie it together if she was unconscious?
I think there's a good chance she was suffocated (does that sound like a familiar M.O. ala MS, along with her cg under height of railing making it impossible for her to propel herself over unattended?).

First her hands were bound, then her ankles were bound (maybe hogtied at that point), then noose put around neck, then t-shirt over noose. They wrap that darn t-shirt around her neck 3 times, tighter and tighter, so tight she can't breath, essentially strangling her. Then they stick the ends of those sleeves into her mouth to make sure she doesn't scream out "just in case". Her airway is blocked, she suffocates yet is still alive (unconscious), then she is tossed over the railing. The 9 ft 2 in drop causes great damage to her neck, but doesn't break it. Maybe the cushioning of the shirt that was supporting her neck like a brace, plus her being unconscious, thus no resistance, prevented the typical long drop damage.

Note 1: all this didn't necessarily happen above the balcony. Could have been below.

Note 2: I began responding to your comment Defense101, then my mind went off in a totally different tangent. Therefore, I am not actually addressing you or your comment. sorry :blushing: Am too lazy to move it somewhere else...

bourne
07-23-2013, 02:44 PM
But do you think they would take the time to pull the cord all the way through the handle? I can't see it myself, believe me, I am in the this is a murder opinion but this is something that doesn't seem likely to me. Wouldn't they just wrap the cord around her ankles and tie it together if she was unconscious?

I don't do manual stuff on boats and I've not handled these types of ropes before. What do you mean by pulling cord through handle?

*Lash*
07-23-2013, 02:58 PM
But do you think they would take the time to pull the cord all the way through the handle? I can't see it myself, believe me, I am in the this is a murder opinion but this is something that doesn't seem likely to me. Wouldn't they just wrap the cord around her ankles and tie it together if she was unconscious?

I have the opinion the perps tried to minimize the amount of rope cutting. I think they fashioned the handle in the knot to avoid another cut and whomever did the knotting was doing so out of a routine behavior. No fibers from cutting the rope were found. Kind of odd don't you think? Where did they go? In my opinion, if RZ cared enough to sweep the floor, turn out the lights, close the door, she would have cleaned up the black paint on the carpet, straightened the chair and tidied up everything else. She wouldn't have left blood all over the place or the towel laying in the hallway. I guess in summary, I believe the person(s) that murdered Rebecca tried not to leave any loose ends. I've often wondered if the rope handle was used in some capacity to throw Rebecca over the balcony.

defense101
07-23-2013, 03:01 PM
I don't do manual stuff on boats and I've not handled these types of ropes before. What do you mean by pulling cord through handle?Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope, which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. I see what you mean now, it was wrapped within the bindings not necessarily looped through the tow rope handle:doh:

STS-135
07-23-2013, 04:38 PM
I searched thoroughly, first online and then in person; and I found only one commercially available tow rope that matches all of the disclosed (!) characteristics of the rope used to hang (or strangle) Rebecca:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=715373&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=51101&subdeptNum=51115&classNum=51116

A hands-on examination of the above rope, followed by a detailed comparison with high resolution color prints of the available photographs, has me firmly convinced that this rope matches all of the following:

Diameter (7/16). Material. Thread Pattern. Thread Footprint (as evidenced by the impressions the rope left on RZ’s left forearm). Intended Use (inflatables and wakeboards). Strength (two rider / 340 pounds). Yellow sleeve with the instructions described by LE on the end with the handle. Nautical knots on both ends (one such knot is clearly visible on the end of the rope tied to the bed post). And of course also Color (both shade and brightness). I personally don’t know how much rope LE found so I don’t have an opinion on length.

On the plus side (if you too also still strongly believe that it was a murder), the fact that only a single, major, marine supplies store chain sells this particular rope should made it easier to find out when one was purchased by anyone associated with the case. And the bindings on Rebecca’s arms and legs still point towards someone with at least some boating experience.

On the down side, JS had a boat and three kids, so the rope could’ve easily already been in the garage as LE asserted because at a minimum the older kids would’ve no doubt enjoyed inflatables or wakeboards. Also on the down side, the rope is sold with the nautical knots used in the hanging already on both ends.

All the killer (or Rebecca if you happen to believe that it was a suicide) had to do was pass the opposite end of each of the two end-sections of rope through the loop formed by the knots sold with the rope. No knowledge of how to tie those nautical knots was required.

Does anyone here know if the handle was recovered? I don’t recall seeing it in any photographs, search warrants, LE descriptions, or even any media articles, etc., so I’d sincerely appreciate if anyone with any knowledge of whether the handle also played a role could please share such information. Is it possible that it was not disclosed by LE because they were at the time seriously treating it as a homicide investigation? Could the related search warrant and/or other related case documents still be sealed precisely because of it?

Could the handle have been used to knock RZ unconscious? It is unlikely IMHO, because then the rope would’ve had to already be in that particular room or somewhere else in the house between the kitchen door and the room where RZ died. And, on that last note, why does everyone keep calling it the guest room when it was clearly all of the following based on verifiable case information: art room, computer room, sitting room, and guest bedroom. Isn’t thinking of it as only a guest bedroom inadvertently misleading?

screecher
07-23-2013, 05:18 PM
...


Could the handle have been used to knock RZ unconscious? It is unlikely IMHO, because then the rope would’ve had to already be in that particular room or somewhere else in the house between the kitchen door and the room where RZ died. And, on that last note, why does everyone keep calling it the guest room when it was clearly all of the following based on verifiable case information: art room, computer room, sitting room, and guest bedroom. Isn’t thinking of it as only a guest bedroom inadvertently misleading?

BBM


STS-135:

We could call it the MURDER ROOM. Well, nevermind. We don't know for fact Becky was MURDERED there. Oh, wait. We could call it the HANGING ROOM!

STS-135
07-23-2013, 10:26 PM
Someone on another thread here, stated that someone must have tied the knots that were in the rope, prior to this event. That would have meant that 'someone' would have had to then, rolled up and placed the rope on the shelf.

How could that have been done with absolutely no dna evidence being present. Don't believe that could have happened.

As for tracing the rope, I think that would have been next to impossible, as I have bought them at boat supply stores, walmart and an rv store. All of the ones I purchased were firm and had too be secured when rolled for storage. I realize there are peobably several brands and types, but they were NOT like the one used in LE's video.

That is another thing. There were no pnotos shown of her hands secured behind her back, or the ropes on the ankles and how they were secured. Do we know if she actually had the ropes in the figure 8 type knots? Just asking.:waitasec:
The nautical knots found on the rope came with the rope when it was purchased.

One of them is clearly visible on the end of the rope tied to the bed post. All the person who tied the rope to the bed had to do was pass the other end of through the loop formed by the knot already on the rope.

Find a West Marine store nearby and go check the rope out yourself too. The knots and loops were already there on both ends. Please consider focusing on the bindings used on her arms and legs instead. Those may still prove to be the killer(s) undoing.

STS-135
07-23-2013, 10:43 PM
Another question I have about the knots and rope - if, as SDSO alleges, RZ had the skills and practice to bind her arms, legs and neck in this intricate manner, why did she supposedly have to go retrieve a boat tow rope from the garage to do so? If, as some allege, she practiced this type of rope tying as a hobby, why were there no other ropes at the crime scene, in the house, etc? There were no other ropes in the house, or one would assume SDSO would have taken them as evidence.

So how does one become an expert at tying these intricate knots, cutting specific lengths of rope, etc. without ever having practiced it before?

If RZ in fact practiced selfbondage, she might've just not done it at the Coronado house. Keep in mind that she was only there for the summer. Not saying she did; only trying to objectively look at all the possibilities and not rule anything out just because it doesn't fit with my scenario.

STS-135
07-23-2013, 10:52 PM
Forensically, the knots that were tied could be examined to identify the person who tied those knots about Rebecca's wrists, ankles, bedpost, etc. Knots made may be as singularly specific as a person's fingerprint. I think if investigators compare the knots that were used on Rebecca and the bedpost to knots tied by defendants on their boats or household, a clear pattern would emerge and point directly to one or more of the defendants.
Yes, someone needs to do a true forensic analysis on the sloppily tied rat-tail stopper knots used on Rebecca's arms and legs. But not the well-done knots on either end of the rope, one of which is clearly visible on the photograph of the end tied to the bed post. I've seen, handled and examined this rope. Those knots come with the rope when purchased with the wakeboard handle.

STS-135
07-23-2013, 11:33 PM
I don't see a good place to put this, but someone brought up the gloves yesterday. Neither the black nitrile/latex glove nor the black gloves seem to appear on these diagrams. Does anyone remember if their position/exact location was posted?
Interesting collage. Interesting indeed. Unfortunately, it seems you posted a thumbnail rather than an actual photo, which kills the resolution; but it's still good enough to point out that in one photograph the white trash bag is on top of the paint tube.

If suicide, Rebecca would've had to paint the sign on the door first, leaving black paint all over the bag as she struggles to get such a long rope out of it because LE found paint on her hands. I don't see any paint on the part of the bag visible in the photo. Was any paint found on the bag by LE? Was any paint found anywhere in the garage?

And, if murder, it would appear to reinforce my theory that DS and AS were both involved. One snapped. The other assisted in a rushed, messy cover-up after he came up running to assist when he heard screaming, only to find DS standing over an unconscious RZ. If AS then agreed to help dispose of the body. DS might’ve known about the rope in the garage and sent for it. She could have easily known it was there because she stayed at the house before, came and went apparently as she pleased, and might’ve even bought it for her son. While AS goes to retrieve the rope DZ is thinking about how to make it look like a suicide, sees the art supplies, and impulsively paints what in her raging mind was a suicide note.

Who else but Dina would've been feeling and thinking that way that evening? Something to the extent of “Yes, Jonah, you told me not to be mad at Rebecca because she saved Max by giving him CPR. Go ahead, see if you can save her now!”

STS-135
07-23-2013, 11:52 PM
I haven't revisited the evidence files of this case in a long time. But I'm sure someone here can check and see how many gloves (pairs or single glove) were entered into evidence by LE.

Regardless, if what you're saying is true, that the murderer(s) had inadvertently left the gloves they wore at the crime scene, then it should be easy to forensically analyze the glove or gloves for their DNA, and if the DNA/prints match anyone other than Rebecca, then, by god, you have solved the case!

I suppose the point is: Did the Zahau investigators get those gloves you believe Rebecca's murderer(s) left behind from LE? And had the Zahau investigators forensically examined all the evidence (including the gloves) for DNA/prints, etc.?

To me, the fact that the Zahaus didn't have a press conference stating that they found DNA/prints of one of the defendants in the gloves or any of the other evidence (knives, paintbrushes, rope, etc.) means that they found no other person's DNA/prints on those items except for Rebecca's. So I would discount the gloves as being worn by the murderer(s).
I recall seeing the gloves listed on one or more of the search warrant documents; and agree that either or both people present would've likely been wearing gloves.

On an unrelated note, late last night I noticed for the first time what appears to be a white or light-colored, somewhat rectangular object lying on the ground between RZ and the table. I don't know where to find it again at the moment, but I think I was watching a news helicopter video of it, pausing frequently, and then zooming-in as much as possible. Anyone else noticed it too? What is it? Was it listed anywhere?

*Lash*
07-24-2013, 11:31 AM
The nautical knots found on the rope came with the rope when it was purchased.

One of them is clearly visible on the end of the rope tied to the bed post. All the person who tied the rope to the bed had to do was pass the other end of through the loop formed by the knot already on the rope.

Find a West Marine store nearby and go check the rope out yourself too. The knots and loops were already there on both ends. Please consider focusing on the bindings used on her arms and legs instead. Those may still prove to be the killer(s) undoing.

I am and have focused on the bindings used on Rebecca's arms and legs. In my opinion, the bindings were also in the form of a nautical knot. Not something Rebecca was familiar with. I have viewed a rope similar to the one you're showing almost 2 years ago and had the knowledge the knots came with the rope. I did not save the picture or remember where it was found. IIRC, the handle was a bit different.

*Lash*
07-24-2013, 11:42 AM
I recall seeing the gloves listed on one or more of the search warrant documents; and agree that either or both people present would've likely been wearing gloves.

On an unrelated note, late last night I noticed for the first time what appears to be a white or light-colored, somewhat rectangular object lying on the ground between RZ and the table. I don't know where to find it again at the moment, but I think I was watching a news helicopter video of it, pausing frequently, and then zooming-in as much as possible. Anyone else noticed it too? What is it? Was it listed anywhere?

I believe it is the candle listed in search warrant 41227, item #16.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

*Lash*
07-24-2013, 11:59 AM
Interesting collage. Interesting indeed. Unfortunately, it seems you posted a thumbnail rather than an actual photo, which kills the resolution; but it's still good enough to point out that in one photograph the white trash bag is on top of the paint tube.

If suicide, Rebecca would've had to paint the sign on the door first, leaving black paint all over the bag as she struggles to get such a long rope out of it because LE found paint on her hands. I don't see any paint on the part of the bag visible in the photo. Was any paint found on the bag by LE? Was any paint found anywhere in the garage?

And, if murder, it would appear to reinforce my theory that DS and AS were both involved. One snapped. The other assisted in a rushed, messy cover-up after he came up running to assist when he heard screaming, only to find DS standing over an unconscious RZ. If AS then agreed to help dispose of the body. DS might’ve known about the rope in the garage and sent for it. She could have easily known it was there because she stayed at the house before, came and went apparently as she pleased, and might’ve even bought it for her son. While AS goes to retrieve the rope DZ is thinking about how to make it look like a suicide, sees the art supplies, and impulsively paints what in her raging mind was a suicide note.

Who else but Dina would've been feeling and thinking that way that evening? Something to the extent of “Yes, Jonah, you told me not to be mad at Rebecca because she saved Max by giving him CPR. Go ahead, see if you can save her now!”

BBM - Was the rope inside the trash bag? IIRC, there was an empty dust pattern left on a garage shelf from where the rope was allegedly retrieved. Why would Rebecca need a trash bag or was the rope stored in the trash bag?

You can find the images Time provided on the SDSO website.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

Carioca
07-24-2013, 12:05 PM
For reference, Kevlar rope used for towing tubes. Image from 22 months ago..
The ends were never a question. The public never saw how the noose was tied as was always under the shirt in all images. The question has always been in the ankle and wrist bindings.

time
07-24-2013, 12:11 PM
Pic of rope tied around the bedframe through a loop:

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8714.jpg

*Lash*
07-24-2013, 12:13 PM
For reference, Kevlar rope used for towing tubes. Image from 22 months ago..
The ends were never a question. The public never saw how the noose was tied as was always under the shirt in all images. The question has always been in the ankle and wrist bindings.

Thank you Carioca. This is exactly the pic I was referring to.

STS-135
07-24-2013, 12:49 PM
I am and have focused on the bindings used on Rebecca's arms and legs. In my opinion, the bindings were also in the form of a nautical knot. Not something Rebecca was familiar with. I have viewed a rope similar to the one you're showing almost 2 years ago and had the knowledge the knots came with the rope. I did not save the picture or remember where it was found. IIRC, the handle was a bit different.

Good to know. Although I usually quote the post that triggered my need to reply with a finding, scenario or opinion, my comments/questions have for the most part been addressed - or meant for - readers at large. I can see, however, why you might've thought that it was intended for you; and will try to be more careful on how my messages are worded in the future to avoid stepping on any more toes. I said in the future...

*Lash*
07-24-2013, 12:59 PM
Good to know. Although I usually quote the post that triggered my need to reply with a finding, scenario or opinion, my comments/questions have for the most part been addressed - or meant for - readers at large. I can see, however, why you might've thought that it was intended for you; and will try to be more careful on how my messages are worded in the future to avoid stepping on any more toes. I said in the future...

I'm sorry, I didn't interpret your post as being directed towards me at all. I was just responding with my opinion to your thoughts. No toes were stepped on. I apologize if it appeared that way!

:peace:

STS-135
07-24-2013, 01:30 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't interpret your post as being directed towards me at all. I was just responding with my opinion to your thoughts. No toes were stepped on. I apologize if it appeared that way!

:peace:


Cute! Yes, peace indeed...

Likewise, I apologize to you and all - once and forever - for seemingly sometimes wasting your time with comments, findings, observations and/or questions which you have all already discussed/resolved. But, please keep in mind at all times that those of us new or just returning to this case after two years are going to need a great deal of help catching up. You don't seriously expect us to first review or remember thousands of posts spread across dozens of threads over two years, do you?!...

*Lash*
07-24-2013, 01:44 PM
Cute! Yes, peace indeed...

Likewise, I apologize to you and all - once and forever - for seemingly sometimes wasting your time with comments, findings, observations and/or questions which you have all already discussed/resolved. But, please keep in mind at all times that those of us new or just returning to this case after two years are going to need a great deal of help catching up. You don't seriously expect us to first review or remember thousands of posts spread across dozens of threads over two years, do you?!...

Of course you should remember it all...it is only 2 years of info...:floorlaugh: just teasing.

You made a good point keeping in mind returning posters and new posters might need some help catching up.

Betty P
07-25-2013, 12:21 AM
Cute! Yes, peace indeed...

Likewise, I apologize to you and all - once and forever - for seemingly sometimes wasting your time with comments, findings, observations and/or questions which you have all already discussed/resolved. But, please keep in mind at all times that those of us new or just returning to this case after two years are going to need a great deal of help catching up. You don't seriously expect us to first review or remember thousands of posts spread across dozens of threads over two years, do you?!...

It's a complex case, an unusual, complicated death, with very little information that has been made public by LE. There were quite a few details we didn't have until reading Ann Rule's book when it recently came out. Other info has come from media interviews, not LE reports.

It's complicated by the first death, that of MS, which was also complicated and unusual. He also gets added to the discussion. Two people, two death investigations and a fairly large cast of characters, so to speak. It's difficult to keep track of all the details and timeline. Over the last 2 years, I've often had to go back and re-read the history.

Cherry
08-04-2013, 11:58 AM
I know a few sailing experts. I know a few Navy experts and military experts as well. I'm going to float the photos a bit and see if anyone can ID these knots for us. It's bothering me tenfold, it always has bothered me, I'd also like someone asian to weigh in on these knots.

TorisMom003
08-08-2013, 03:05 AM
You say she was inexperienced at tying knots. Please provide that link b/c I haven't seen it. She lived on the beach in the summertime. Was there ever any boating? Perhaps I should search for a photo where they are boating.

I can safely assume RZ was familiar with tying rope. A look at her suicide bondage proves that.

imo & moo

Bringing this part of a post from another thread since it belongs on this thread. Snipped by me.

Just because a person spends the summer (part or all) at the beach and may or may not ride on a boat does not mean that a person would have knowledge of tying knots. One can ride on a boat and never have tied knots before in their life.

Making an assumption based on where a person may spend their summers and having been on a boat is ,IMO, a very large leap to saying that person knows about tying knots. I, personally, have spent summers at the beach and been on a boat numerous times however I could not tie a knot that would hold firmly that would be equal to someone that has tied knots before.

However, there is someone involved in this case that does have knowledge of tying knots so that they are secure and will hold firmly. We have no firm, accurate proof that Rebecca knew how to tie knots that would hold firmly.

MOO

bourne
08-08-2013, 10:55 AM
Bringing this part of a post from another thread since it belongs on this thread. Snipped by me.

Just because a person spends the summer (part or all) at the beach and may or may not ride on a boat does not mean that a person would have knowledge of tying knots. One can ride on a boat and never have tied knots before in their life.

Making an assumption based on where a person may spend their summers and having been on a boat is ,IMO, a very large leap to saying that person knows about tying knots. I, personally, have spent summers at the beach and been on a boat numerous times however I could not tie a knot that would hold firmly that would be equal to someone that has tied knots before.

However, there is someone involved in this case that does have knowledge of tying knots so that they are secure and will hold firmly. We have no firm, accurate proof that Rebecca knew how to tie knots that would hold firmly.

MOO

Great points! All 3 defendants named in the WDS know how to tie sailor knots. Dina and Nina's dad was a US Coast guard and according to an obituary*, he used to take both his daughters out boating from the time they were young children and onward. Given the fact that he was a US Coast guard, he'd have to learn to how secure a boat/ship and given that he took Dina & Nina yachting OFTEN, it would be reasonable to assume he likely did teach them how to tie sailor knots. Moreover, an insider had stated that Dina and Jonah both loved to take Jonah's private yacht out to sea so this is additional sailing and rope-tying/knotting experience for Dina.

Of course, we all aware that Adam is a tugboat captain so it is most apparent that he would know how to rope-tie sailor knots.

Since Rebecca only went sailing less than a handful of times in her entire lifetime, it would be safe to assume she was not taught sailor knotting.

*I will provide obituary link as soon as I can find it again. :)

Here's link: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/ROMANO-Eugenio-Gene-2609170.php

The article says "He enjoyed...yachting in Coronado, and reminiscing with his family" and "More than anything else, spending time with his daughters and their families always made him the most proud and joyful." Also says Dina and Nina's dad "started and managed a successful business, "Romano's Moving & Transfer", and that "Following retirement, he lived out his boyhood dream of becoming a cowboy cattle rancher and purchased a ranch in Gerber, CA." Hmm, that gives me an image of more rope-tying, including lassoing cattle and securing of furniture/things with ropes. Lots of rope-tying knowledge and practical experience in the Dina/Nina Romano family.

Carioca
08-08-2013, 12:16 PM
Do we know for FACT that Rebecca EVER went sailing?? I don't recall reading that. Just because there is a sailboat available doesn't necessarily imply she sailed. My family grew up sailing yet a family member was deathly afraid of the water, thus refused to go out in the boat. TIA

*Lash*
08-09-2013, 08:47 AM
Do we know for FACT that Rebecca EVER went sailing?? I don't recall reading that. Just because there is a sailboat available doesn't necessarily imply she sailed. My family grew up sailing yet a family member was deathly afraid of the water, thus refused to go out in the boat. TIA

I don't recall reading anything in regards to Rebecca having sailing experience. Whether with Jonah or her life before Jonah. RZ didn't need sailing experience to learn these complex knots. Some believe she could have looked them up on the computer using the search words, "raped, sexy Asian girls, and bondage anime". If Rebecca had made these searches for the purpose of suicide, I would expect to see the words "suicide" or "hanging" included in the words searched.

Some have suggested Rebecca and Jonah engaged in BDSM. If true, I'm curious who brought this into their relationship, Jonah or Rebecca? If Jonah, I have to consider if this was practiced with his ex wives. Would Dina have experience in BDSM when she was with Jonah? BDSM is not my cup of tea, therefore I have no experience. However, I personally don't find this to be a character flaw in those who choose to practice BDSM. As long as it is healthy and between consenting adults, to each their own. It may be a piece of salacious info on a mogul like Jonah, but it doesn't make one a bad person. Again, since I have zero experience, is there anyone else here that knows if these knots are customarily used in BDSM? In my opinion, the bondage part of Rebecca's murder may have been used to send a message. It is also my opinion, this message was not left by Rebecca. I believe the message was left by the person who murdered her.

time
08-09-2013, 11:28 AM
I don't recall reading anything in regards to Rebecca having sailing experience. Whether with Jonah or her life before Jonah. RZ didn't need sailing experience to learn these complex knots. Some believe she could have looked them up on the computer using the search words, "raped, sexy Asian girls, and bondage anime". If Rebecca had made these searches for the purpose of suicide, I would expect to see the words "suicide" or "hanging" included in the words searched.

Some have suggested Rebecca and Jonah engaged in BDSM. If true, I'm curious who brought this into their relationship, Jonah or Rebecca? If Jonah, I have to consider if this was practiced with his ex wives. Would Dina have experience in BDSM when she was with Jonah? BDSM is not my cup of tea, therefore I have no experience. However, I personally don't find this to be a character flaw in those who choose to practice BDSM. As long as it is healthy and between consenting adults, to each their own. It may be a piece of salacious info on a mogul like Jonah, but it doesn't make one a bad person. Again, since I have zero experience, is there anyone else here that knows if these knots are customarily used in BDSM? In my opinion, the bondage part of Rebecca's murder may have been used to send a message. It is also my opinion, this message was not left by Rebecca. I believe the message was left by the person who murdered her.

BBM - So true! I think if anything like that was going on, then it was Jonah who brought it into the relationship from past experience. Oddly, I hear possible overtones of 'someone' or ones thinking that this was known to Jonah and it's part of a jealousy loop. IDK

I certainly can't answer the 2nd BBM well, but I would say from looking around the web that those knots could be used in Shibari or Kinbaku, it doesn't appear they are necessarily that common though in that practice.

Be WARNED this page on pinterest at the link below does have some nudity, but it's safe to view, not violent or pornography, and you can see the variety of knots.

http://pinterest.com/renatazb/shibari-kinbaku/

As far as I can tell, someone who knew Shibari might know how to do the knots on Rebecca, but I'm not sure the overall look and method of tying coincides... usually Shibari, etc. is artful for the most part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_bondage#Aesthetics_of_Japanese_Bondage

Here is a pic showing similar knots - but these are not THAT easy to find and would probably not come up with the search terms used.

http://pinterest.com/pin/41165784064895907/
http://pinterest.com/pin/41165784063637588/

It would be far more likely, in my opinion, that someone staged that search to make it look like Rebecca had done it that to provide any info on how to tie knots.

One last thing to add....I believe those knots on Rebecca would be used in a number of circumstances. In other words, they are known knots and not just used in boating or bondage.

Also, not all rope bondage/tying is what you might think of as BDSM as far as I can tell.

Zoot
08-09-2013, 09:06 PM
The searches on Rebecca computer just don't make sense at all. If one is preparing to commit suicide, they don't need to look up "raped" or "sexy Asian girls". There is nothing sexy about commiting suicide via hanging. And sure no one can rape themselves, so in my opinion, the search is absolutely irrelevant to Rebecca.
However, Adam habitually watches porn (6am, no less, watching porn on his iPhone, just like other people read newspapers or brush their teeth upon awakening), may be very attracted to pretty Rebecca and may fantasize about her. I wish we knew at what time searches were conducted.

inthedark14
08-09-2013, 09:45 PM
Even if JS and RZ were into some kinky stuff. Who really cares? It is not any big deal between two consenting adults FGS. I realize this happened before the world read 50 shades, but come on now, lots of people were aware of BDSM prior to that.

I am sure that any type of BDSM type of "items" that were in the mansion would have been taken into evidence. I mean, they would do that right? A bound woman found dead outside the place and all.... (cough).

Third, as it has been posted before, if either or both of them were into that, their previous partners would be well aware and NN has made no mention of this since RZ's death, and well, DS we know what she's been saying.

The searches are troubling because someone into that wouldn't need to be searching about what was searched for. They would be well aware of the intricacies of it and wouldn't be searching for something as detailed and odd as that.

ALWAYS MOO

IQuestion
08-09-2013, 11:39 PM
Even if JS and RZ were into some kinky stuff. Who really cares? It is not any big deal between two consenting adults FGS. I realize this happened before the world read 50 shades, but come on now, lots of people were aware of BDSM prior to that.

I am sure that any type of BDSM type of "items" that were in the mansion would have been taken into evidence. I mean, they would do that right? A bound woman found dead outside the place and all.... (cough).

Third, as it has been posted before, if either or both of them were into that, their previous partners would be well aware and NN has made no mention of this since RZ's death, and well, DS we know what she's been saying.

The searches are troubling because someone into that wouldn't need to be searching about what was searched for. They would be well aware of the intricacies of it and wouldn't be searching for something as detailed and odd as that.

ALWAYS MOO
Inthedark14...love you, but hate the subject, Ugh. Just gotta say, that is some freakazoid stuff!! Call me a prude..(and I happily acknowledge being one.) Nothing makes me sicker than some old trout fart trying to hit on me with weird innuendos and fetish talk!! Yuck, gag, upchuck......
Ladies, if you don't run your azz's right back home, the second a creep suggests tying you up with ropes, you need to:
A) consider firing your life coach...
B) ask Match.com for a full refund
C) tell him it is OK, if you get to tie him up first
D) seriously consider celibacy a virtue!

inthedark14
08-09-2013, 11:51 PM
Inthedark14...love you, but hate the subject, Ugh. Just gotta say, that is some freakazoid stuff!! Call me a prude..(and I happily acknowledge being one.) Nothing makes me sicker than some old trout fart trying to hit on me with weird innuendos and fetish talk!! Yuck, gag, upchuck......
Ladies, if you don't run your azz's right back home, the second a creep suggests tying you up with ropes, you need to:
A) consider firing your life coach...
B) ask Match.com for a full refund
C) tell him it is OK, if you get to tie him up first
D) seriously consider celibacy a virtue!

Sorry to have freaked you out a bit IQ, I know it's not a subject that makes everyone comfortable. But the fact of the matter is that people do these things everyday, it is not a real "oddity" in the world. If we can be comfortable talking about what the internet search was about, we may as well delve into it and explore what it could or could not mean.

Again, sorry if I offended you in any way, I would never want to do so...I'm just trying to think beyond the "norm". (I'll reference the "novel" 50 shades again, many people are familiar with it ((it can be found anywhere)), so I really don't see the harm here, especially with what is being inferred in this case).

:therethere: :grouphug:(not a gross hug, a we can solve this hug)! :)
ALWAYS MOO

IQuestion
08-10-2013, 12:26 AM
Sorry to have freaked you out a bit IQ, I know it's not a subject that makes everyone comfortable. But the fact of the matter is that people do these things everyday, it is not a real "oddity" in the world. If we can be comfortable talking about what the internet search was about, we may as well delve into it and explore what it could or could not mean.

Again, sorry if I offended you in any way, I would never want to do so...I'm just trying to think beyond the "norm". (I'll reference the "novel" 50 shades again, many people are familiar with it ((it can be found anywhere)), so I really don't see the harm here, especially with what is being inferred in this case).

:therethere: :grouphug:(not a gross hug, a we can solve this hug)! :)
ALWAYS MOO

Inthedark:blushing: You have not offended me and neither have I read 50 shades. As I said, I guess I'm kind of a prude and have to realize this subject is going to come up BECAUSE SOME FRIGGIN' IDIOT CLAIMS TORTURING AND KILLING A BEAUTIFUL YOUNG WOMAN has something to do with Japanese Macrame!!! If I were going to commit suicide, I wouldn't be doing it for anyone else's prying eyes, public humiliation, or cause so much grief for my family.
I accept the group hug, sometimes it is hard being a prude. Hey, hey, Serpico, move your hand!!:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
(...just teasin')

*Lash*
08-10-2013, 09:15 AM
The searches on Rebecca computer just don't make sense at all. If one is preparing to commit suicide, they don't need to look up "raped" or "sexy Asian girls". There is nothing sexy about commiting suicide via hanging. And sure no one can rape themselves, so in my opinion, the search is absolutely irrelevant to Rebecca.
However, Adam habitually watches porn (6am, no less, watching porn on his iPhone, just like other people read newspapers or brush their teeth upon awakening), may be very attracted to pretty Rebecca and may fantasize about her. I wish we knew at what time searches were conducted.

You understood my point, the Internet search makes absolutely no sense and does not fit a suicide theory. If Rebecca wanted to look up how to bind herself, she would not look up the word "rape". If she had experience in BDSM, she likely would not need to search the Internet. In my opinion, the Internet searches profoundly point to someone else having accessed her computer. How extremely odd to find these words had been searched on her computer and then to find her dead and bound. The Internet searches have a meaning. In my opinion, either someone wanted to humiliate Rebecca, was acting on a fantasy or was sending a message to Jonah. All point to homicide, not suicide. The murderer took the act further with the bindings. They were not a necessary part of the murder. The bindings took extra time and with any extra time there was more of a chance the perp would be caught. IMO, The murderer felt safe and not rushed. The message on the door, the Internet searches and the bindings were all part of a bigger message someone wanted to send, in my opinion.

*Lash*
08-10-2013, 09:24 AM
Sorry to have freaked you out a bit IQ, I know it's not a subject that makes everyone comfortable. But the fact of the matter is that people do these things everyday, it is not a real "oddity" in the world. If we can be comfortable talking about what the internet search was about, we may as well delve into it and explore what it could or could not mean.

Again, sorry if I offended you in any way, I would never want to do so...I'm just trying to think beyond the "norm". (I'll reference the "novel" 50 shades again, many people are familiar with it ((it can be found anywhere)), so I really don't see the harm here, especially with what is being inferred in this case).

:therethere: :grouphug:(not a gross hug, a we can solve this hug)! :)
ALWAYS MOO

BBM - I agree and SDSO completely ignored the Internet searches. In my opinion, purposely ignored, for two reasons. It did not fit their suicide conclusion and they were protecting the image of Jonah Shacknai. I can imagine JS was already not pleased with AS's admission of viewing porn on his iPhone. If you add the Internet searches to Adam's porn admission, well it doesn't look real good for AS who happens to be the brother of mogul Jonah Shacknai.

Zoot
08-10-2013, 10:05 AM
BBM - I agree and SDSO completely ignored the Internet searches. In my opinion, purposely ignored, for two reasons. It did not fit their suicide conclusion and they were protecting the image of Jonah Shacknai. I can imagine JS was already not pleased with AS's admission of viewing porn on his iPhone. If you add the Internet searches to Adam's porn admission, well it doesn't look real good for AS who happens to be the brother of mogul Jonah Shacknai.

Not only it doesn't look good for the brother of mogul John Shacknai, but this porn watching brother, possibly fantasizing about tying up and raping sexy Asian female, happened to be in the very close vicinity from Rebecca, who was Asian and found dead, nude and bound under very mysterious circumstances.

I wonder if Adam asked Rebecca to use a "computer room" that fateful Tuesday, and Rebecca let him. We know he brought his iPhone but there is no mention of him bringing laptop or iPad. He could've asked her to use a computer to book a flight or to check an email. She had no reason to deny him, after all he was JS brother, he was there to support him and she wanted to be hospitable. While he was there, she went to master bedroom to shower and change. Maybe that's was the time when Nina showed up and saw light is on in the "computer room". Maybe that was the time when Dina showed up at the door and Adam let her in the house. After all, Dina was not a stranger to Adam, she was his nephew's mother, he had no reason to avoid her. And maybe they confronted Rebecca together after she got out of the shower.

Nom de plume
08-10-2013, 12:33 PM
Not only it doesn't look good for the brother of mogul John Shacknai, but this porn watching brother, possibly fantasizing about tying up and raping sexy Asian female, happened to be in the very close vicinity from Rebecca, who was Asian and found dead, nude and bound under very mysterious circumstances.

I wonder if Adam asked Rebecca to use a "computer room" that fateful Tuesday, and Rebecca let him. We know he brought his iPhone but there is no mention of him bringing laptop or iPad. He could've asked her to use a computer to book a flight or to check an email. She had no reason to deny him, after all he was JS brother, he was there to support him and she wanted to be hospitable. While he was there, she went to master bedroom to shower and change. Maybe that's was the time when Nina showed up and saw light is on in the "computer room". Maybe that was the time when Dina showed up at the door and Adam let her in the house. After all, Dina was not a stranger to Adam, she was his nephew's mother, he had no reason to avoid her. And maybe they confronted Rebecca together after she got out of the shower.

Zoot I think you may have hit the nail on the head with this theory! There's just too many "off" things about AS for me to give him a pass. DRS has obvious motives, and many at that. How could she NOT be involved? I don't see any reason for NR to be directly involved, but have no doubt that she would cover for her sister in a heart beat. IMO this was some combination of AS & DRS, and your theory makes as much sense as any I've heard.

LoveAlways7
08-10-2013, 01:12 PM
Its kind of interesting that this subject is being hit upon, as sex has been a generally shied away from topic in this case, notwithstanding the small pebbles of innuendo.

The only person I know of who actually knew Rebecca's ex-boyfriend personally said he thought it might be traced back to that subject:

http://warpony2310.blogspot.com/2012/03/doctor-comments-on-jonah-shacknai.html

"Needless to say though I had a signed agreement with Medicis for my initial study on lips and the paper for $280,000 this did not include the expanded studies and the work that would lead to FDA approval in which they promised participation. But Xxxxx never paid me and ceased to talk to me but as his wealth increased so did his satyriasis --- his excessive, often uncontrollable sexual desire. Maybe this was his desire to remain forever young."

time
08-10-2013, 03:07 PM
The only person I know of who actually knew Rebecca's ex-boyfriend personally said he thought it might be traced back to that subject:

http://warpony2310.blogspot.com/2012/03/doctor-comments-on-jonah-shacknai.html


What are you saying?

Are you saying you knew a person who knew Rebecca's ex boyfriend (whoever that is?)?

Who is Rebecca's ex boyfriend?

And, that person you knew thought it could be traced back to the subject matter of sex?

I'm really not getting what your point(s) is here?

From the link

"But Jonah never paid me and ceased to talk to me but as his wealth increased so did his satyriasis --- his excessive, often uncontrollable sexual desire."

I don't see any connection between Jonah having this sexual desire and Rebecca being murdered. Jonah is the one with the alibi, Dina is the one without an alibi. Unless you mean Dina was jealous of Rebecca getting all the sexual attention from Jonah?

Betty P
08-10-2013, 03:35 PM
Not only it doesn't look good for the brother of mogul John Shacknai, but this porn watching brother, possibly fantasizing about tying up and raping sexy Asian female, happened to be in the very close vicinity from Rebecca, who was Asian and found dead, nude and bound under very mysterious circumstances.

I wonder if Adam asked Rebecca to use a "computer room" that fateful Tuesday, and Rebecca let him. We know he brought his iPhone but there is no mention of him bringing laptop or iPad. He could've asked her to use a computer to book a flight or to check an email. She had no reason to deny him, after all he was JS brother, he was there to support him and she wanted to be hospitable. While he was there, she went to master bedroom to shower and change. Maybe that's was the time when Nina showed up and saw light is on in the "computer room". Maybe that was the time when Dina showed up at the door and Adam let her in the house. After all, Dina was not a stranger to Adam, she was his nephew's mother, he had no reason to avoid her. And maybe they confronted Rebecca together after she got out of the shower.

Very good analysis! The public has always been told AS came home from the hospital and went straight to bed. Its very likely he used the computer room for while, let visitors in when RZ was showering.

Zoot
08-10-2013, 06:07 PM
Its kind of interesting that this subject is being hit upon, as sex has been a generally shied away from topic in this case, notwithstanding the small pebbles of innuendo.

The only person I know of who actually knew Rebecca's ex-boyfriend personally said he thought it might be traced back to that subject:

http://warpony2310.blogspot.com/2012/03/doctor-comments-on-jonah-shacknai.html

"Needless to say though I had a signed agreement with Medicis for my initial study on lips and the paper for $280,000 this did not include the expanded studies and the work that would lead to FDA approval in which they promised participation. But Xxxxx never paid me and ceased to talk to me but as his wealth increased so did his satyriasis --- his excessive, often uncontrollable sexual desire. Maybe this was his desire to remain forever young."

This is a very odd comment of Dr Klein. He is celebrated dermatologist and got plenty of credit for his work. Why he felt the need to comment on JS sexual desires and what it has to do with anything? Scratching my head here.

Arnold Klein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LoveAlways7
08-10-2013, 06:38 PM
What are you saying?

Are you saying you knew a person who knew Rebecca's ex boyfriend (whoever that is?)?

Who is Rebecca's ex boyfriend?

And, that person you knew thought it could be traced back to the subject matter of sex?

I'm really not getting what your point(s) is here?

From the link

"But Jonah never paid me and ceased to talk to me but as his wealth increased so did his satyriasis --- his excessive, often uncontrollable sexual desire."

I don't see any connection between Jonah having this sexual desire and Rebecca being murdered. Jonah is the one with the alibi, Dina is the one without an alibi. Unless you mean Dina was jealous of Rebecca getting all the sexual attention from Jonah?

I should have said: "heard of" ... sorry... I'm a little country :) I meant, the only person I've read anything on the record from that knew him was...

I don't know any of these people

As to the point.. the point is... of the people that actually knew him personally, and spoke about him, Klein is the only person, and that link is his take on what "might have" happened.

His guess, having known him, IMO .. is better than anyone who has not. That is my point.

LoveAlways7
08-10-2013, 06:43 PM
This is a very odd comment of Dr Klein. He is celebrated dermatologist and got plenty of credit for his work. Why he felt the need to comment on JS sexual desires and what it has to do with anything? Scratching my head here.

Arnold Klein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Klein)

And here I thought he was just some kook lol

Well, he knew the guy. Do you think that the way he is portrayed by Klein is accurate? Or do you think he is ... prevaricating?

I've seen crazier assumptions about various people in the case than this on here, and nobody even knows them!!

Zoot
08-10-2013, 07:05 PM
And here I thought he was just some kook lol

Well, he knew the guy. Do you think that the way he is portrayed by Klein is accurate? Or do you think he is ... prevaricating?

I've seen crazier assumptions about various people in the case than this on here, and nobody even knows them!!

I tend to agree with time that whether JS's portrayal is correct or not, it is not relevant. After all, JS has an alibi.

LoveAlways7
08-10-2013, 08:22 PM
I tend to agree with time that whether JS's portrayal is correct or not, it is not relevant. After all, JS has an alibi.

I'm sorry... I have not seen proof of any alibi. Oh... I should take SDSO word for it... mmm kay

screecher
08-10-2013, 09:06 PM
... JS has an alibi.



Actually, Jonah and Rebecca are the ONLY ones who have alibis.

LoveAlways7
08-10-2013, 09:20 PM
Actually, Jonah and Rebecca are the ONLY ones who have alibis.

What evidence is there that his alibi is valid?


Anyway, it doesn't matter, because Brother came to the rescue... no presence needed.

inthedark14
08-10-2013, 09:56 PM
What evidence is there that his alibi is valid?


Anyway, it doesn't matter, because Brother came to the rescue... no presence needed.

I would assume that Ann Rule would have to have some kind of real proof that JS was shown on camera at the hospital. I imagine that that huge scary PR firm he hired would have not let that one go by. That, of course, is MOO, however, we know from SDSO that DS was only verified by her cell phone triangulation. That's really not as solid as video evidence, now is it? I'd guess that a state of the art hospital like Rady's would have plenty of cameras. And I'd suppose that even a parent at the bedside of their horrifyingly ill child would have to use the facilities or eat, at some point. So a cell phone triangulation wouldn't be necessary, there would be video evidence.

As for AS, I'm on the fence about him, I just don't know what to think about how convenient it was that he was so odd in what he said to the 911 operator and during his poly. Except that if someone had intimate knowledge about certain disorders they could have easily used that, and spinned it, to their advantage. That is where the waters get even more murky.

ALWAYS, MOO