View Full Version : MD ARUBA - Robyn Gardner, 35, Maryland woman missing in Aruba, 2 August 2011 - #5
SheWhoMustNotBeNamed
09-11-2011, 03:18 PM
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http://www.cbsnews.com/i/tim/2011/08/09/Robyn-Gardner-01_540x405.jpg
35-year-old Robyn Gardner disappeared while on vacation in Aruba on August 2, 2011. Her traveling companion and suspect in the case, Gary Giordano, says she was swept away while they were snorkeling.
Previous Threads:
Thread #1
Thread #2
Thread #3
Thread #4
Niner
09-11-2011, 06:22 PM
TimeLine approximate; updated 9-11 @ 3:18pm PST
July 2011 - Robyn sends GG a text "Get me out of here." Per a report. there is a fight just prior to leaving for Aruba between GG and RF.
Sunday, July 31st - Flight time from Maryland to Orlando is about 1 1/2 hours. Given the time they would have needed to be at the airport for security, my guess-timate is that they were at the airport no later than 6am.
9am – Orlando Airport: ABC News has seen receipts that revealed that the couple ordered four Bloody Marys at 9 a.m. at the Orlando Airport on their way to the island,
?? Arrive at hotel - and that the two bought a liter of Ciroq vodka after they checked into their room at the Marriott Hotel in Aruba.
Sunday, July 31, late afternoon - I met Robyn and Gary on the beach in front of the Marriott Stellaris Hotel. They had arrived on that day. My husband and I sat and spoke with them for awhile. They asked my husband and I about activities on the island.... Was shocked to see that this had happened, since we just spoke with them last Sunday, late afternoon. I am sure it was Robyn because I commented on her tattoo, indicating that I liked it. Didn't think they went together as a couple, as he was much older. She was also sitting kind of far away from him on the beach chair. She was nice. We were actually discussing the Natalee Holloway case. I will pray for her return.
Monday, August 1st - GG and RG bought bottle of vodka this day, per reports. Nothing else reported as of 9-2-11 of their time spent for day.
Monday, August 1st – 5:02pm – Facebook comment: “the 16. I can communicate here.”
Tuesday. August 2nd – 2:05am - Facebook comment left on RF's wall by Robyn: "This sucks."
Tuesday, August 2nd – 6:51am - Prime murder suspect Gary Giordano, who friends said she met on a swingers sex site, is thought to have threatened to kill her while grabbing her by the neck and shoving her into an elevator on August 2 - the last day Miss Gardner, 35, was seen alive. The videotape from the Marriott Resort in Aruba allegedly shows the two having a furious and violent fight on the day she went missing. A source close to the investigation told the National Enquirer: 'They were having a major fight. Robyn was waving her arms and shouting at Giordano. He was grabbing her arms and jerking her around and shouting back at her. 'Then Giordano apparently realized their argument was heating up in public where someone might overhear them. He violently grabbed the back of Robyn's neck with one hand and shoved her back into the elevator with the other hand.' After reviewing the video multiple times, experts believe Robyn shouted: 'I'm out of here. I'm leaving F you!. I'm not spending another minute with you!' while he shouted back: 'Get back here! I'll kill you, b*****!'
Tuesday, August 2nd – 7:57am - Facebook: RF to Robyn: “?? InBox me”
3:06pm - Arrived at restaurant – Seen on camera entering restaurant.
3:10pm - Robyn sends RF a Facebook message 'Don't worry. I care about you I love you we'll talk and sort things out when I got back,' Reportedly went to bathroom after entering restaurant.
4:13pm - Robyn is last seen (leaving restaurant). A man who works near Baby Beach reported seeing their vehicle park up by the rocks close to the water, wondered why they chose there to go snorkeling. A fisherman comes forward and says that GG and RG never went into the water. Gardner was last seen alive Aug. 2 at the Rum Reef Bar & Grill in the Baby Beach area of Aruba with Gary Giordano - approximately 4pm. Giordano, 50, and Gardner, 35, had traveled to Aruba together. He is being held in an Arubian jail but could be released today. Giordano claims that Gardner got swept out to sea when the two went snorkeling
approx. 4:22pm - Approximately 10 minutes after leaving restaurant a fisherman reportedly saw Giordano and Gardner leaving a beach together, and said they did not get into the water.
6:15pm (time seen on video) (first report said 6:02 pm) - Giordano reportedly is seen in surveillance video, tapping on closed shutters of the bar – per “sources” even though it has been mentioned that there are NO cameras in the back of restaurant.
6:20pm - GG reportedly headed to the back kitchen of the bar and told someone to call police. Three witnesses, two women and a man, told police that Giordano approached them on Aug. 2, saying, "Can you help me? We were snorkeling and my girlfriend is missing," she told police. One woman told police that while Giordano's sneakers were wet, his shorts were not. When Giordano reported Gardner missing, he seemed extremely drunk, a local fisherman, Sergio Silva, told ABC News, although Giordano told police that the two never purchased alcohol at the restaurant.
6.23pm - 911 received notification of a possible drowning of a woman. The traveling companion of this woman, a man G.V.G. stated that they were going snorkeling behind Nanki Country Club.
At 6:23 p.m. on the day of her disappearance, police were called, and 20 minutes later began to search the area. Then, Giordano left the search to return to his hotel and take a nap, according to police. Disclaimer: This claim, at 6.40 GG went for a nap, not true, there are various pics of GG helping the police in the dark, pics where it is completely dark, it takes till 7:30 for it to get dark, so GG was not taking a nap at 6:40, he still was working with the police at least at 7:30.
Wednesday, August 4th - Robin’s mother arrives.
Wednesday, August 4th – original date to fly back
Friday, August 5th - Three days after the search for Gardner began, Giordano got within feet of leaving the country before he was stopped at Aruba's airport where he told U.S. Customs he had to change flights because of weather, and told officials that his travel companion was "taking another flight." He was trying to board a flight one hour earlier than his scheduled departure. When arrested, authorities say Giordano was drenched in sweat. Mug shot after being arrested trying to get on a plane off the island.
Wednesday, August 31st – GG detained in jail for another 60 days (Oct 30th).
Sapphire
09-11-2011, 09:52 PM
Un team special a sigui duik den e area unda e dama americano Robyn Lynn Gardner lo a desaparece
4 HORA PASA , 11 DI SEPTEMBER 2011 17:17
http://ba2.sim-img.net/awe24_archive/8432/1_1315775885.jpg
http://www.awe24.com/20110911/8432/Un_team_special_a_sigui_duik_den_e_area_unda_e_dam a_americano_Robyn_Lynn
Tugela
09-11-2011, 10:05 PM
From the last thread:
EH! What is an "annual plan"?--Like if an accident happened to Robin Gardner anywhere, anytime within the year he would be the beneficiary?? Can that be right?
If you get a trip specific plan it ends when you return from your trip. If you are going on multiple trips it is more cost effective to buy an annual plan than getting insurance every time you travel.
neesaki
09-11-2011, 11:53 PM
Un team special a sigui duik den e area unda e dama americano Robyn Lynn Gardner lo a desaparece
4 HORA PASA , 11 DI SEPTEMBER 2011 17:17
http://ba2.sim-img.net/awe24_archive...1315775885.jpg (http://ba2.sim-img.net/awe24_archive/8432/1_1315775885.jpg)
http://www.awe24.com/20110911/8432/U...ano_Robyn_Lynn (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Fp%3D7114533&v=1&libid=1315799435447&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.awe24.com%2F20110911%2F8432%2 FUn_team_special_a_sigui_duik_den_e_area_unda_e_da ma_americano_Robyn_Lynn&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Fp%3D7114218&title=MD%20ARUBA%20-%20Robyn%20Gardner%2C%2035%2C%20Maryland%20woman%2 0missing%20in%20Aruba%2C%202%20August%202011%20-%20%235%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.awe24.com%2F20110911%2F8432%2 FU...ano_Robyn_Lynn&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13157996627037)
I'm sorry, I don't speak or read this language, dutch? Are they searching for Robyn in the ocean? If you can, please clarify. Thx :)
Sapphire
09-12-2011, 08:20 AM
I'm sorry, I don't speak or read this language, dutch? Are they searching for Robyn in the ocean? If you can, please clarify. Thx :)
A special dive team is searching the area where the American lady Robyn Lynn Gardner disappeared.
Peliman
09-12-2011, 08:54 AM
New video footage raises questions...
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/aruba-mystery-footage-raises-questions-14499567
neesaki
09-12-2011, 10:02 AM
New video footage raises questions...
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/aruba-mystery-footage-raises-questions-14499567 (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/aruba-mystery-footage-raises-questions-14499567)
As was posted in the previous thread, the Marriott Renaissance hotel where they were staying has it's own private island w/ it's own private beach. The website photos show calm waters, and does mention kayaking but not snorkeling, though hard to believe they wouldn't offer that as well. Here's the link to hotel photos:
http://www.marriott.com/hotels/hotel-photos/auabr-renaissance-aruba-resort-and-casino/
Now, finding out GG & Robyn were seen at this public area at this little run down restaurant when they had the amenities, beautiful beaches and safe, calm waters of the hotel's own private island to me speaks volumes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this first day they were seen there would have been their first day on the island, and allegedly before their witnessed argument (if that indeed happened), and if I have the timeline correct, even before the texts Robyn sent to Richard. GG was obviously up to something IMHO.
Dushi
09-12-2011, 10:08 AM
Most of the snorkelling is done away from the hotels
Most tourists take boats out to snorkelling areas in groups or go on their own away from the hotel beaches
There is not much to see near the shores of the hotel
I don't think the beach bar looks rundown, But thats just me
I agree, the area they/he chose is certainly an unusual area to go into the water, its looks very rocky, rugged
Peliman
09-12-2011, 10:31 AM
Sorry, not much time to closely view these videos and stories, just bringing information from MSM just coming out. I've seen more footage and will try and bring it forward as found.
This footage shows GG at the same resturant the day before, along with a 2 page written story. Timestamps are in the video. here's a snippet...
"If I were interviewing him, I would really push him on .. .here you are sort of walking around like you don't really care and you're not really trying to find the people on the other side of those doors," said Brad Garrett, an ABC News consultant and retired FBI profiler.
Investigators said that it appeared that Giordano wanted to be visible on every camera at the restaurant as if to establish an alibi."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/aruba-suspect-gary-giordano-missing-maryland-woman-robyn/story?id=14499332
Dushi
09-12-2011, 10:34 AM
Who took photos of Robyn and Gary leaving the restaurant and why?
I read that someone was interested in her tattooes but that is clearly not the case, wrong side.
Who takes pics of strangers?
Dushi
09-12-2011, 10:40 AM
So they go to the same restaurant the day before but its closed
She is wearing the same dress
and then the next day, they come back when it is open, have lunch and she disappears
He made a point of drawing attention to them
It doesn't sound much like an argument that got out of hand,IMO
Sounds like things were planned the day before
Mendara
09-12-2011, 10:46 AM
Watching the video it seems he is acting out the search - he knocks on a bathroom door but doesn't wait to see if someone comes out, he does not go in - he is just tapping on doors and walking around. Very fakw. mo
annalia
09-12-2011, 10:50 AM
Who took photos of Robyn and Gary leaving the restaurant and why?
I read that someone was interested in her tattooes but that is clearly not the case, wrong side.
Who takes pics of strangers?
If police now have the pictures then they must know who took them and who it was that gave them to police.
Wasn't was said to be an employee?
Dushi
09-12-2011, 10:53 AM
If police now have the pictures then they must know who took them and who it was that gave them to police.
Wasn't was said to be an employee?
Could be, i don't recall
Dushi
09-12-2011, 11:01 AM
Watching the video it seems he is acting out the search - he knocks on a bathroom door but doesn't wait to see if someone comes out, he does not go in - he is just tapping on doors and walking around. Very fakw. mo
I realize that everybody reacts to situations differently, but GG seems far too cool to have just lost a friend in the ocean
IMO, he is going through the motions, no panic, no fear
neesaki
09-12-2011, 11:13 AM
Most of the snorkelling is done away from the hotels
Most tourists take boats out to snorkelling areas in groups or go on their own away from the hotel beaches
There is not much to see near the shores of the hotel
That is good to know.
I don't think the beach bar looks rundown, But thats just me
I agree, the area they/he chose is certainly an unusual area to go into the water, its looks very rocky, rugged
To clarify, in comparison to the resort where they were staying:)
neesaki
09-12-2011, 11:23 AM
So they go to the same restaurant the day before but its closed
She is wearing the same dress
Did they go there the day before so GG could scope it out and to see what time the restaurant closed? Or is it possible it was also so GG could prove he had the goods and to set up her hand-off for the following day? Was this the reason she was wearing the same dress, or did she just pack really light? Whether he murdered her or sold her is yet to be proven, either way his behavior is very suspicious.
neesaki
09-12-2011, 11:29 AM
Also it was reported that GG had previously purchased an insurance policy on Robyn for a trip in June, then she cancelled the trip. Could this be why he purchased an annual policy the second time around, in the event that she cancelled again? :groucho:
Dushi
09-12-2011, 11:35 AM
Did they go there the day before so GG could scope it out and to see what time the restaurant closed? Or is it possible it was also so GG could prove he had the goods and to set up her hand-off for the following day? Was this the reason she was wearing the same dress, or did she just pack really light? Whether he murdered her or sold her is yet to be proven, either way his behavior is very suspicious.
What?
Wearing the same dress to prove he had the goods?
Maybe she packed light, I don't know
Personally, It stood out to me because I am the type to wear something different instead of the same thing two days in a row
It seems he was scoping out the restaurant, maybe hours of operation
Keep in mind, he brought attention to them, introducing them to the waiter
He wanted to be noticed
Hard to do if nobody is around
My point is, whatever happened, IMO, was not spur of the moment argument
The location appears to have been checked out the day before
Dushi
09-12-2011, 11:44 AM
Also it was reported that GG had previously purchased an insurance policy on Robyn for a trip in June, then she cancelled the trip. Could this be why he purchased an annual policy the second time around, in the event that she cancelled again? :groucho:
maybe he thought purchasing a years worth of insurance would make it appear there were more trips planned together
maybe he thought it looked less suspicious
neesaki
09-12-2011, 11:50 AM
What?
Personally, It stood out to me because I am the type to wear something different instead of the same thing two days in a row
Me also. Just trying to include all possibilities.
It seems he was scoping out the restaurant, maybe hours of operation...
...My point is, whatever happened, IMO, was not spur of the moment argument
The location appears to have been checked out the day before
I guess I'm not communicating my thoughts very well. I agree.:)
Dushi
09-12-2011, 11:52 AM
It seems he was scoping out the restaurant, maybe hours of operation...
...My point is, whatever happened, IMO, was not spur of the moment argument
The location appears to have been checked out the day before
I guess I'm not communicating my thoughts very well. I agree.:)[/quote]
LOL, its fine!!
annalia
09-12-2011, 11:57 AM
Did they go there the day before so GG could scope it out and to see what time the restaurant closed? Or is it possible it was also so GG could prove he had the goods and to set up her hand-off for the following day? Was this the reason she was wearing the same dress, or did she just pack really light? Whether he murdered her or sold her is yet to be proven, either way his behavior is very suspicious.
They were only supposed to be there for four nights, it could be that she packed light. That dress was said to be her favorite, I've worn an outfit more than once on vacation especially during the daytime, or if she wore it as a bathing suit cover I can also see wearing the same thing. Easy to walk around in.
I agree his behavior is very suspicious but I don't think that going to the restaurant and finding it closed, then going back the next day is necessarily proof of anything. Could be they simply found it closed and went back.
Or like you say he could have wanted to scope out the place, to set her up, I just don't see proof either way just based on the fact that it was closed when they first went.
JMHO
Dushi
09-12-2011, 12:04 PM
If posted... sorry
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/44483842#44483842
annalia
09-12-2011, 12:13 PM
So it would seem that the still photos of RG and GG came from restaurant surveillance video, not from someone taking photos because they admired her tattoos.
That's very clear surveillance video.
It also captured him at his car?
Dushi
09-12-2011, 12:15 PM
So it would seem that the still photos of RG and GG came from restaurant surveillance video, not from someone taking photos because they admired her tattoos.
That's very clear surveillance video.
It also captured him at his car?
Yes, it does
That makes far more sense to me than a stranger taking pictures
annalia
09-12-2011, 12:35 PM
I tried to find where it was reported that the photos were taken by someone because they liked her tattoos but couldn't find it. There were references to it posted, that it was a tourist admiring her tattoos, but no links.
The ABC video report didn't state who took the photos.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/mystery-aruba-pictures-robyn-gardner-surface-gary-giordano-14361830
Maybe it came from the NE or DailyMail. Or the info became like the game telephone the more it was discussed.
Yellow Rose
09-12-2011, 01:04 PM
I'm sorry, I don't speak or read this language, dutch? Are they searching for Robyn in the ocean? If you can, please clarify. Thx :)
What the quote says is that "divers are searching the waters in the area where Robyn alledgedly dissappeared."
Sapphire
09-12-2011, 01:39 PM
I tried to find where it was reported that the photos were taken by someone because they liked her tattoos but couldn't find it. There were references to it posted, that it was a tourist admiring her tattoos, but no links.
The ABC video report didn't state who took the photos.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/mystery-aruba-pictures-robyn-gardner-surface-gary-giordano-14361830
Maybe it came from the NE or DailyMail. Or the info became like the game telephone the more it was discussed.
<snipped>
Martin Savidge:
SAVIDGE: These are pretty interesting photos. These are, of course, photos that are taken at the Rum Reef Bar and Grill. This is where they were having their meal. And you are watching as Gary and Robyn walk away. And this, by the way, is the last time we will see Robyn Gardner.
And I asked the authorities -- first of all they're releasing them because they hope that people on the island will see these, see them in the clothes they were wearing and that this will have more eyewitnesses come forward and tell them how they may have seen this couple later.
But I said, well, who took these pictures. I mean, who takes pictures of people walking away? The authorities said, actually, it was a worker at the bar whose daughter has tattoos. Noticed the tattoos that Robyn Gardner has, which are quite prolific, and decided to take photos as she walked away. It sounds a bit bizarre, but those are the photographs, and they're out there now. And that is, as I say, we watch Robyn walk away to a fate as yet unknown.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1108/24/acd.02.html
annalia
09-12-2011, 01:59 PM
<snipped>
Martin Savidge:
SAVIDGE: These are pretty interesting photos. These are, of course, photos that are taken at the Rum Reef Bar and Grill. This is where they were having their meal. And you are watching as Gary and Robyn walk away. And this, by the way, is the last time we will see Robyn Gardner.
And I asked the authorities -- first of all they're releasing them because they hope that people on the island will see these, see them in the clothes they were wearing and that this will have more eyewitnesses come forward and tell them how they may have seen this couple later.
But I said, well, who took these pictures. I mean, who takes pictures of people walking away? The authorities said, actually, it was a worker at the bar whose daughter has tattoos. Noticed the tattoos that Robyn Gardner has, which are quite prolific, and decided to take photos as she walked away. It sounds a bit bizarre, but those are the photographs, and they're out there now. And that is, as I say, we watch Robyn walk away to a fate as yet unknown.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1108/24/acd.02.html
Thanks
That is very strange. Did they release photographs taken by a worker when they also had security video of the same shots? The tattoos were on the other side.
Sapphire
09-12-2011, 02:11 PM
Annalia, I don't understand it either. :waitasec:
mamacita
09-12-2011, 02:12 PM
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20527405,00.html
mamacita
09-12-2011, 02:18 PM
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20527405,00.html
when he returns to the restaurant by himself (shirtless w/swim trunks)... he's "banging" on doors, but he doesn't look worried. he doesn't stay at any one door too long, waiting for someone to answer... it looks more like he's slapping each door a couple times. he's not running, he doesn't look panicked. o.O
Magdalyn
09-12-2011, 03:09 PM
They were only supposed to be there for four nights, it could be that she packed light. That dress was said to be her favorite, I've worn an outfit more than once on vacation especially during the daytime, or if she wore it as a bathing suit cover I can also see wearing the same thing. Easy to walk around in.
I agree his behavior is very suspicious but I don't think that going to the restaurant and finding it closed, then going back the next day is necessarily proof of anything. Could be they simply found it closed and went back.
Or like you say he could have wanted to scope out the place, to set her up, I just don't see proof either way just based on the fact that it was closed when they first went.
JMHO
It could be a different maxi dress. If you look closely at the undated picture the FBI used for her 'missing' poster, that dress has spaghetti straps--and on a pic provided by RF, they criss-cross or X in the back.
If you look at the shoots from hours before she went missing, that dress has wider staps that do NOT crisscross in the back, they just go straight down. She may have packed two very similar looking maxi dresses and wore one Sunday and the other Monday.
Dress one:
http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Robyn+Gardner/photos
http://www.radaronline.com/photos/image/140662
Dress two:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-08-25/news/29943057_1_aruban-authorities-dutch-caribbean-island-giordano
Magdalyn
09-12-2011, 03:25 PM
Thanks
That is very strange. Did they release photographs taken by a worker when they also had security video of the same shots? The tattoos were on the other side.
Was the worker who took the photos male? I'm just wondering if perhaps he's married or just doesn't want to look like a stalker-perv and he really just took the pictures cause he thought Robyn was hot. Or, not to be cruel, wanted to send a camera phone pic to a friend with a message like, "Can you believe this old fart is here with this hot thing?"
And then the worker realized he had to explain WHY he took these pics so.... it was her TATTOOS! (Which you can't see in these photos!) :waitasec:
ETA: OR they were, as stated upthread, stills from the surveillance cameras outside.
Dushi
09-12-2011, 03:28 PM
Was the worker who took the photos male? I'm just wondering if perhaps he's married or just doesn't want to look like a stalker-perv and he really just took the pictures cause he thought Robyn was hot. Or, not to be cruel, wanted to send a camera phone pic to a friend with a message like, "Can you believe this old fart is here with this hot thing?"
And then the worker realized he had to explain WHY he took these pics so.... it was her TATTOOS! (Which you can't see in these photos!) :waitasec:
Or
ABC has it wrong and it is from the surveillance tapes
R.U.Kidding!
09-12-2011, 05:29 PM
Or
ABC has it wrong and it is from the surveillance tapes
....and
at least it shows GG in swimming trunks, not still in his shorts and black shirt. So he changed....again I ask have they found HER dress, shoes , handbag, etc? They must have or surely that would be reason enough to have held GG, don't you think?
Sorry to keep harping on her clothes, but It seems I have become obsessed with them. They are taking on a life of their own:crazy:
Niner
09-12-2011, 05:35 PM
okay - I've made a note of the new stuff for Aug. 1st and the 'new' times from survelliance videos on Aug 2nd. I will post the 'new' updated version of the TimeLine later on...
annalia
09-12-2011, 05:45 PM
Or
ABC has it wrong and it is from the surveillance tapes
But ABC never said where the photos came from.
Martin Savage from CNN reported that he spoke directly to authorities and that's who told him that it was a worker.
annalia
09-12-2011, 05:48 PM
It could be a different maxi dress. If you look closely at the undated picture the FBI used for her 'missing' poster, that dress has spaghetti straps--and on a pic provided by RF, they criss-cross or X in the back.
If you look at the shoots from hours before she went missing, that dress has wider staps that do NOT crisscross in the back, they just go straight down. She may have packed two very similar looking maxi dresses and wore one Sunday and the other Monday.
Dress one:
http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Robyn+Gardner/photos
http://www.radaronline.com/photos/image/140662
Dress two:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-08-25/news/29943057_1_aruban-authorities-dutch-caribbean-island-giordano
That could be.
Micheline
09-12-2011, 07:52 PM
Sorry, not much time to closely view these videos and stories, just bringing information from MSM just coming out. I've seen more footage and will try and bring it forward as found.
This footage shows GG at the same resturant the day before, along with a 2 page written story. Timestamps are in the video. here's a snippet...
"If I were interviewing him, I would really push him on .. .here you are sort of walking around like you don't really care and you're not really trying to find the people on the other side of those doors," said Brad Garrett, an ABC News consultant and retired FBI profiler.
Investigators said that it appeared that Giordano wanted to be visible on every camera at the restaurant as if to establish an alibi."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/aruba-suspect-gary-giordano-missing-maryland-woman-robyn/story?id=14499332
-bolded by me.
I am getting so fed up with the way ABC covers this.
First they claimed GG was knocking on shutters at 6:02 PM, then vanished for 20 minutes (suspicious acc to ABC) then comes back and tries to find someone again.
Now the footage shows this was not true, GG was there the entire time, walking all sides of the building in hopes to find someone.
He may not have been screaming or pulling his hair, he does look like he is trying to find somone.
On the video the times GG can be seen August 2 looking for help:
18:15 knocking on several back doors.
18: 16 walking up the stairs.
18:16 walking along the bar.
18:17 walking the bar area
then walking around to the back (no footage).
18:20 per earlier reports, GG finds someone at the kitchen and asked them to call the police.
So he never disappeared for 20 minutes as claimed by ABC, he was there the whole time looking for someone. IMO
But now that it is a fact he did not disappear for 20 minutes he is even more suspicious acc to ABC, "Giordano wanted to be visible on every camera at the restaurant as if to establish an alibi."
What alibi would that be, Robyn had already disappeared so what was there to gain for him to be caught on camera after the fact?
Micheline
09-12-2011, 08:28 PM
But ABC never said where the photos came from.
Martin Savage from CNN reported that he spoke directly to authorities and that's who told him that it was a worker.
In their video of today they said these two photo's were taken with a Blackberry (see the video linked several times on the page before this one).
I asume the ones taken with the Balckberry are the same ones Savidge is referring to.
Or maybe both are confused and the ones taken with the Balckberry were the ones of Robyn sitting with the menu card in front of her, on which her tattoo's are very prominent, same dress too.
So far I have seen no one confirming if those pics could be taken at Rum Reef, while it must not be that difficult to figure out, IMO.
Micheline
09-12-2011, 08:48 PM
In the video's released today it is shown (allegedly) that Robyn and GG were at the same area the day before.
Their car passes the restaurant at 3:09, then at 3:41 they are walking the beach behind the restaurant.
I assume the licence plate of the car being checked, and this being RG and GG.
That means they drove by, parked the car, walked around (not being captured on video on Baby Beach) and still were walking around at 3:41, so they walked there for around 30 minutes, which is a long time to walk there, the hottest time of day, they were both fully dressed and it seems GG it wearing long trousers.
Why would anyone walk that area fully dressed for 30 minutes, they only had 5 days to spend on the island, it is not a gorgeous place, not an interesting place either.
If GG had plans as some think he had, then what would he tell Robyn about what exactly they were doing there? Would she just walk around, no questions asked, around 33 C, in a long dress, why would she?
And then the next day again they go there, again "explore" the beach behind the Rum Reef, and Robyn (who was staying in a really beautiful hotel with a nice pool and beach/private island) would then still not wonder why again she was taken to that place?
If their intention was to go into the sea or to suntan there, they could have done so the day before.
If Gary had sinister plans, then would it not have been more convenient for him the day the restaurant was closed?
If he wanted to explore the area, if Robyn took sleeping pills that day, and probably slept some time during the day, then Gary could have explored the area without Robyn, without the risk she may be wondering why GG took her to this unappealing place twice.
Micheline
09-12-2011, 09:01 PM
when he returns to the restaurant by himself (shirtless w/swim trunks)... he's "banging" on doors, but he doesn't look worried. he doesn't stay at any one door too long, waiting for someone to answer... it looks more like he's slapping each door a couple times. he's not running, he doesn't look panicked. o.O
-bolded by me.
This is claimed on ABC too, that he was so calm, not panicking at all just trying to establish an alibi, being aware of all the camera's etc.
I think that reasoning does not make sense.
If GG planned all this, with the sole purpose to cash 1,5 million, then how hard would it be for him to run around frantically, scream, slam on doors for minutes etc.
IMO the fact that he does not do that makes it less likely this all is planned by him, less likely that he murdered Robyn. IMO
Just-a-Guy
09-12-2011, 10:02 PM
-bolded by me.
This is claimed on ABC too, that he was so calm, not panicking at all just trying to establish an alibi, being aware of all the camera's etc.
I think that reasoning does not make sense.
If GG planned all this, with the sole purpose to cash 1,5 million, then how hard would it be for him to run around frantically, scream, slam on doors for minutes etc.
IMO the fact that he does not do that makes it less likely this all is planned by him, less likely that he murdered Robyn. IMO
I see your point. But to me he looks devastatingly nervous. A man who is not an experienced killer, who just killed someone, someone he knew intimately and had been spending close time with...might just be a little bit out of sorts. Hard to carry forth activities with precision and care. Acting partly "on autopilot". Especially if alcohol is also involved.
I realize it's all speculation at this point (as it has been for the last month), but that footage of him at around 6 pm that day at the Rum Reef, to me, sealed the deal. He has the demeanor of a guilty, but not very bright, killer.
Micheline
09-12-2011, 11:14 PM
I see your point. But to me he looks devastatingly nervous. A man who is not an experienced killer, who just killed someone, someone he knew intimately and had been spending close time with...might just be a little bit out of sorts. Hard to carry forth activities with precision and care. Acting partly "on autopilot". Especially if alcohol is also involved.
-respectfully snipped by me.
If he looks devastatingly nervous then why do you interpretate that as an unexperienced killer? If he just lost someone in the sea he would be devastatingly nervous aswell.
Kiln Wood
09-12-2011, 11:24 PM
-respectfully snipped by me.
If he looks devastatingly nervous then why do you interpretate that as an unexperienced killer? If he just lost someone in the sea he would be devastatingly nervous aswell.
BBM
And in a state of full scale panic? And frantic to boot?
Just-a-Guy
09-12-2011, 11:31 PM
-respectfully snipped by me.
If he looks devastatingly nervous then why do you interpretate that as an unexperienced killer? If he just lost someone in the sea he would be devastatingly nervous aswell.
No, I think that's a different state of mind. He's moving too slowly, too methodically, too systematically. A person who just lost someone at sea would be madly trying to get help, yelling, running, banging, screaming and begging for help. I think his movements show an amateurish calculation. As in, "OK, I neexd to move around, make noise, act like I'm looking for help," but compromised by a state of mind that is distracted, self-absorbed, lost, afraid for himself.
Mind you, I recognize this is pure guesswork. These are just my observations. They are based on 20 years of practicing law and trying to measure the veracity of witnesses and so forth, but that doesn't make them any less guesswork.
I think they'll nail this ******* before it's over, despite the fact that they (ALE) are totally incompetent, understaffed, underfunded, undertrained and lacking in resources. He's just that stupid.
Edit: Ha. It appears that calling a GG by his true colors is prohibited here. I meant to say he is an azz-hole. :)
Peliman
09-12-2011, 11:37 PM
Not to mention after Robyn supposedly was in trouble and drowning, GG in his rush to get her help has the presence of mind to put on his tennis shoes while she's supposedly drowning.
Tugela
09-12-2011, 11:45 PM
Well, he wouldnt have known that she was drowning for sure, only that he couldn't find her. What would you do? If you ran around frantically, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt. If you wandered around confused, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt. If you were deliberate in your actions, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt.
The problem he has is that everyone has decided he is guilty, so matter what he did or didn't do, they are going to view it in a malevolent light.
At the end of the day however, evidence is what is required.
Peliman
09-13-2011, 12:08 AM
Well, he wouldnt have known that she was drowning for sure, only that he couldn't find her. What would you do? If you ran around frantically, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt. If you wandered around confused, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt. If you were deliberate in your actions, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt.
He wouldn't have known? I'd say when she didn't surface he had an emergency. Yes getting her help was an emergency, I don't buy he didn't know.
The problem he has is that everyone has decided he is guilty, so matter what he did or didn't do, they are going to view it in a malevolent light.
At the end of the day however, evidence is what is required.
I think everyone at this point thinks he's suspicious. I'm not sure there's enough evidence to convict but we really haven't seen ALL the evidence. If he's charged it's up to a Aruban court to determine his charges or guilt.
Just-a-Guy
09-13-2011, 12:23 AM
Well, he wouldnt have known that she was drowning for sure, only that he couldn't find her. What would you do? If you ran around frantically, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt. If you wandered around confused, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt. If you were deliberate in your actions, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt.
The problem he has is that everyone has decided he is guilty, so matter what he did or didn't do, they are going to view it in a malevolent light.
At the end of the day however, evidence is what is required.
Yes. Evidence.
The vids are evidence.
Evidence is anything a judge decides the jury can hear.
neesaki
09-13-2011, 02:42 AM
Well, he wouldnt have known that she was drowning for sure, only that he couldn't find her. What would you do? If you ran around frantically, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt. If you wandered around confused, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt. If you were deliberate in your actions, pundits would take that as a sign of guilt.
The problem he has is that everyone has decided he is guilty, so matter what he did or didn't do, they are going to view it in a malevolent light.
At the end of the day however, evidence is what is required.
Well, he did seem to show premature and considerable interest in collecting on the life insurance policy and then attempted to flee the country while lying that Robyn was taking a different flight. Why? I just think it's the whole picture, not just one component that causes GG to look guilty, JMO.
neesaki
09-13-2011, 02:52 AM
But ABC never said where the photos came from.
Martin Savage from CNN reported that he spoke directly to authorities and that's who told him that it was a worker.
Maybe the worker thought she was a pretty lady and was concerned about her. One report stated the employees at the restaurant thought GG's behavior was odd.
mamacita
09-13-2011, 02:54 AM
Not to mention after Robyn supposedly was in trouble and drowning, GG in his rush to get her help has the presence of mind to put on his tennis shoes while she's supposedly drowning.
i didn't notice/think about that! good catch!
neesaki
09-13-2011, 02:59 AM
No, I think that's a different state of mind. He's moving too slowly, too methodically, too systematically. A person who just lost someone at sea would be madly trying to get help, yelling, running, banging, screaming and begging for help. I think his movements show an amateurish calculation. As in, "OK, I neexd to move around, make noise, act like I'm looking for help," but compromised by a state of mind that is distracted, self-absorbed, lost, afraid for himself.
Mind you, I recognize this is pure guesswork. These are just my observations. They are based on 20 years of practicing law and trying to measure the veracity of witnesses and so forth, but that doesn't make them any less guesswork.
I think they'll nail this ******* before it's over, despite the fact that they (ALE) are totally incompetent, understaffed, underfunded, undertrained and lacking in resources. He's just that stupid.
Edit: Ha. It appears that calling a GG by his true colors is prohibited here. I meant to say he is an azz-hole. :)
Totally agree, do you have any idea at all why they haven't brought in search dogs? Thx:)
neesaki
09-13-2011, 03:10 AM
So he never disappeared for 20 minutes as claimed by ABC, he was there the whole time looking for someone. IMO
But now that it is a fact he did not disappear for 20 minutes he is even more suspicious acc to ABC, "Giordano wanted to be visible on every camera at the restaurant as if to establish an alibi."
What alibi would that be, Robyn had already disappeared so what was there to gain for him to be caught on camera after the fact?
Well, understanding that ABC is not perfect, it does appear that GG is attempting to appear to try to get help. He's not excited, frantic, desperate as someone would be if their friend were in trouble and they wanted to save them. Really, if Robyn had been, as he claimed, swept out to sea, why wasn't he out there in the ocean trying to find her, he's the Big Tuff Mr. Scuba Man, after all. If they did go out in those rough waters, which would have been totally stupid and irresponsible, but nevertheless, if they did, then he would have been the one who put her in that treacherous situation, so that should have made him feel even more responsible than ever for her, IMO.
UKgirl
09-13-2011, 03:14 AM
Sorry must be here somewhere but I have missed it.
Whats the time difference in her going missing (last seen at restaurant) and GG coming back to the restaurant later.
Was the car moved, did they drive anywhere or was the beach quite close to the restaurant.
Whats with the plastic blue cups?
I wonder why she went to the bathroom so many times, they were only there for an hour.
UKgirl
09-13-2011, 03:17 AM
Well, understanding that ABC is not perfect, it does appear that GG is attempting to appear to try to get help. He's not excited, frantic, desperate as someone would be if their friend were in trouble and they wanted to save them. Really, if Robyn had been, as he claimed, swept out to sea, why wasn't he out there in the ocean trying to find her, he's the Big Tuff Mr. Scuba Man, after all. If they did go out in those rough waters, which would have been totally stupid and irresponsible, but nevertheless, if they did, then he would have been the one who put her in that treacherous situation, so that should have made him feel even more responsible than ever for her, IMO.
What about mobile phones, it proves robyn had hers, as she text her boyfriend. Why didnt GG stay on the beach waiting for her to resurface (if she had drowned). And call the police from there. Why walk away????
neesaki
09-13-2011, 03:50 AM
Sorry must be here somewhere but I have missed it.
Whats the time difference in her going missing (last seen at restaurant) and GG coming back to the restaurant later.
Was the car moved, did they drive anywhere or was the beach quite close to the restaurant.
Whats with the plastic blue cups?
I wonder why she went to the bathroom so many times, they were only there for an hour.
If I remember correctly they left the restaurant around 4:12 Pm and he was seen on surveillance video back at the restaurant a little around 6 - 6:15 PM. I'm not sure how close the beach was to the restaurant. The blue plastic cups, according to reports, had vodka and orange juice which they brought with them and he went back to the car to refill, also according to videos and witnesses. Maybe she went to the restroom to check her phone messages, or if she was drinking alcohol w/ o.j. , well, you know, it can make you need to urinate more? Or, maybe she had other reasons we may never know.:(
Tugela
09-13-2011, 05:44 AM
He wouldn't have known? I'd say when she didn't surface he had an emergency. Yes getting her help was an emergency, I don't buy he didn't know.
Well, according to reports (if they are believable) he swam to shore without checking to see if she was following. When he got there she wasnt around, so he wouldn't have know if she was still in the water or had passed him, reached the shore and had gone somewhere else. Or perhaps she had come out of the water further up or down the coast. He just wouldn't have known where she was. He would have gone looking for her first, and then eventually when all reasonable possibilities were exhausted, gone looking for help. Unless he actually saw her in distress there is no reason for him to have been panicking at that point (unless he had a hysterical personality, and there is no indication of that).
The first response of most normal people in a situation like that is that the other person was allready on shore somewhere, not that they had drowned. Who on earth thinks "oh, I can't see them, so they must have drowned"???
In any case, even if he did know that she had drowned, running around like a crazy person would not have changed that fact. It is not how most men would react. Women maybe, but not men.
Tugela
09-13-2011, 05:51 AM
Yes. Evidence.
The vids are evidence.
Evidence is anything a judge decides the jury can hear.
The Aruban legal system doesn't use juries.
Tugela
09-13-2011, 05:54 AM
i didn't notice/think about that! good catch!
If you are walking on coral you always wear shoes (coral is sharp). Having wet shoes on is not unexpected in that situation.
Just-a-Guy
09-13-2011, 06:51 AM
The Aruban legal system doesn't use juries.
Thanks, I did not know that.
So in that case, evidence is whatever the court allows to be presented. As I have said before, people often misconstrue the meaning of the term. I'm just pointing out that all of the facts and circumstances, right down to the looks on peoples' faces, can be evidence in a trial. And it's the totality that counts, and whether the fact-finder (be it a judge or a jury) is convinced.
Just-a-Guy
09-13-2011, 06:52 AM
If you are walking on coral you always wear shoes (coral is sharp). Having wet shoes on is not unexpected in that situation.
Most people don't wear shoes while snorkeling, though.
Just-a-Guy
09-13-2011, 07:00 AM
Totally agree, do you have any idea at all why they haven't brought in search dogs? Thx:)
No idea. I have the same info as everyone else, which isn't much. My guess is money. Either that or they have credible evidence she is not on land. I tend to think the former, though....
Magdalyn
09-13-2011, 08:07 AM
Well, according to reports (if they are believable) he swam to shore without checking to see if she was following. When he got there she wasnt around, so he wouldn't have know if she was still in the water or had passed him, reached the shore and had gone somewhere else. Or perhaps she had come out of the water further up or down the coast. He just wouldn't have known where she was. He would have gone looking for her first, and then eventually when all reasonable possibilities were exhausted, gone looking for help. Unless he actually saw her in distress there is no reason for him to have been panicking at that point (unless he had a hysterical personality, and there is no indication of that).
The first response of most normal people in a situation like that is that the other person was allready on shore somewhere, not that they had drowned. Who on earth thinks "oh, I can't see them, so they must have drowned"???
In any case, even if he did know that she had drowned, running around like a crazy person would not have changed that fact. It is not how most men would react. Women maybe, but not men.
I respectfully disagree. I think most men snorkling with a female companion (whom they're sharing a vacation, a hotel room, and a bed with), after saying something along the lines of "the water's rough, we should head in," would monitor their companion's progress and not take an 'every man for himself' approach to reaching shore. Heck, on the restaurant video tape, just walking to and from the car, he'd occasionally look back at her or slow down to wait for her. I guess in rough waters, old GG's gallantry is much diminished.
Then he got to shore or the car where he presumably put on shoes. And saw that Robyn's clothes, shoes, etc were still there. Unless she went snorkling in a maxi dress and sandals. They were in supposedly rough waters, needed to urgently swim to shore, and then he ... didn't see Robyn and assumed she must be fine, dressless, shoeless, purseless, phoneless ... and that she went ahead on foot somewhere else?
Drowning would be anyone, man or woman's, first presumption if the story went as HE HIMSELF described. Rough waters, swim back to shore, turn around, she's not there, and according to him, he then ran to get help... because he presumed she was still in the water.
I'd venture to say a stranger would have tried harder to rouse help than her own date did.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1108/11/ijvm.01.html
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, if you look at Martin Savidge, who is standing right there -- maybe we can go back to him for a second. Thank you for -- just to see the water behind you. This is Baby Beach. It`s so calm.
And I want to bring in Mike Brooks, because you could see Martin Savidge standing there at Baby Beach. This is like a lake. That`s why they call it Baby Beach. And here is the attorney claiming, "Oh, it was rough." I mean, we know, Mike, that an area that`s called Baby Beach is not going to have waves that`s going to carry somebody away.
MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, but one of the things Marty has been reporting, when the daylight was out, that just over his shoulder and around the corner, when you get past the breakers, it does look rough. You could see it.
You know, is there a possibility she could have gotten caught in some kind of rip current and that kind of thing carried her out? Yes. But if you`re swimming with somebody, if I was swimming with somebody, I`d want to know -- I would have them right with me. I wouldn`t leave them in the water. His story just is not making any sense, Jane. None whatsoever.
Dushi
09-13-2011, 08:47 AM
But ABC never said where the photos came from.
Martin Savage from CNN reported that he spoke directly to authorities and that's who told him that it was a worker.
My mistake
I thought i read ABC
Really, they have the photos
I simply don't get a stranger shooting pictures of another stranger
R.U.Kidding!
09-13-2011, 08:57 AM
In the video's released today it is shown (allegedly) that Robyn and GG were at the same area the day before.
Their car passes the restaurant at 3:09, then at 3:41 they are walking the beach behind the restaurant.
I assume the licence plate of the car being checked, and this being RG and GG.
That means they drove by, parked the car, walked around (not being captured on video on Baby Beach) and still were walking around at 3:41, so they walked there for around 30 minutes, which is a long time to walk there, the hottest time of day, they were both fully dressed and it seems GG it wearing long trousers.
Why would anyone walk that area fully dressed for 30 minutes, they only had 5 days to spend on the island, it is not a gorgeous place, not an interesting place either.
If GG had plans as some think he had, then what would he tell Robyn about what exactly they were doing there? Would she just walk around, no questions asked, around 33 C, in a long dress, why would she?
And then the next day again they go there, again "explore" the beach behind the Rum Reef, and Robyn (who was staying in a really beautiful hotel with a nice pool and beach/private island) would then still not wonder why again she was taken to that place?
If their intention was to go into the sea or to suntan there, they could have done so the day before.
If Gary had sinister plans, then would it not have been more convenient for him the day the restaurant was closed?
If he wanted to explore the area, if Robyn took sleeping pills that day, and probably slept some time during the day, then Gary could have explored the area without Robyn, without the risk she may be wondering why GG took her to this unappealing place twice.
Micheline,
I happen to agree with EVERYTHING you have said.
Maybe the authorities should take a closer look at "the Rum Reef Inn"--seems to at the center of 2 days worth of visits.
Magdalyn
09-13-2011, 09:32 AM
I forgot to add in my last post...
This is all presuming they actually went snorkling and that any of the story GG told the ALE is true.
AFAIK, the only witness that has come forward is the beneficiary to a 1.5 million dollar insurance policy... who has a history with commiting fraud.
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 10:33 AM
The beach is a significant distance from the restaurant. He would have driven to it. He apparently felt it was important to report her missing to someone in person, as he had a cell phone in his possessions. Assuming he knew it would take this much knocking on doors, etc. and was part of the plan however is a stretch.
The last photos of them are from a surveillance camera, not a blackberry. If you look at JADS FB you can see the cameras. I don't have the exact link.
http://facebook.com/jadsaruba
He was scouting the area the day before IMO. He also wanted to have more sex with her before killing her, so that is why the death occurred on Aug 2. MOO.
The case will get a murder conviction because of the fraud on her beneficiary form, the 1.5 million dollar premium policy taken out on her, his story inconsistencies, his past showing his character towards women, and the fact future Aruba tourism depends on getting tough on this type of crime. MOO.
concentric
09-13-2011, 10:41 AM
In their video of today they said these two photo's were taken with a Blackberry (see the video linked several times on the page before this one).
I asume the ones taken with the Balckberry are the same ones Savidge is referring to.
Or maybe both are confused and the ones taken with the Balckberry were the ones of Robyn sitting with the menu card in front of her, on which her tattoo's are very prominent, same dress too.
So far I have seen no one confirming if those pics could be taken at Rum Reef, while it must not be that difficult to figure out, IMO.
--------------
Thank you for that. I was also wondering the same thing, although you stated it more clearly.
Clarity of the facts being reported is what we need. However, that seems to be lacking in so many cases.
concentric
09-13-2011, 10:44 AM
[QUOTE=HatesSociopaths;7119585]The beach is a significant distance from the restaurant. He would have driven to it. He apparently felt it was important to report her missing to someone in person, as he had a cell phone in his possessions.QUOTE]
Yes. If you had a cell phone and someone was in danger you would call for help, not bang on shutters, IMO.
concentric
09-13-2011, 10:55 AM
Why would GVG and RG go to that place twice and walk around?
IMO, what I posted from thread 1 is: I think GVG told RG that they were scouting locations for photo/video shoots.
annalia
09-13-2011, 11:30 AM
The beach is a significant distance from the restaurant. He would have driven to it. He apparently felt it was important to report her missing to someone in person, as he had a cell phone in his possessions. Assuming he knew it would take this much knocking on doors, etc. and was part of the plan however is a stretch.
The last photos of them are from a surveillance camera, not a blackberry. If you look at JADS FB you can see the cameras. I don't have the exact link.
http://facebook.com/jadsaruba
He was scouting the area the day before IMO. He also wanted to have more sex with her before killing her, so that is why the death occurred on Aug 2. MOO.
The case will get a murder conviction because of the fraud on her beneficiary form, the 1.5 million dollar premium policy taken out on her, his story inconsistencies, his past showing his character towards women, and the fact future Aruba tourism depends on getting tough on this type of crime. MOO.
my bolding
We don't know yet that it was fraud, but hopefully they've examined the signatures on the policies, comparing it to different samples of RG's signature. I don't know how the other policy that he took out when he traveled with the other woman will affect this case, but I wonder if that could actually work in his favor.
I think he is responsible for what happened to her, but I will be shocked if they do charge him with murder without finding RG's body.
ETA Just wanted to add that if experts do conclude that he forged the documents, they probably have a stronger case.
JMHO
Dushi
09-13-2011, 11:59 AM
The beach is a significant distance from the restaurant. He would have driven to it. He apparently felt it was important to report her missing to someone in person, as he had a cell phone in his possessions. Assuming he knew it would take this much knocking on doors, etc. and was part of the plan however is a stretch.
The last photos of them are from a surveillance camera, not a blackberry. If you look at JADS FB you can see the cameras. I don't have the exact link.
http://facebook.com/jadsaruba
He was scouting the area the day before IMO. He also wanted to have more sex with her before killing her, so that is why the death occurred on Aug 2. MOO.
The case will get a murder conviction because of the fraud on her beneficiary form, the 1.5 million dollar premium policy taken out on her, his story inconsistencies, his past showing his character towards women, and the fact future Aruba tourism depends on getting tough on this type of crime. MOO.
Not all cell phones work on Aruba
Surely you remember that from the NH case
I thought I read he borrowed a cell phone from someone on the beach?
So far, there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence
I have yet to read whether the signature is a forgery
Have you read that somewhere?
Do you have a link?
annalia
09-13-2011, 12:05 PM
Totally agree, do you have any idea at all why they haven't brought in search dogs? Thx:)
According to this article from August, they have to request it from the Netherlands. Why they haven't done that yet is anyones guess, or maybe they have sent the request and we just haven't heard. JMHO
http://www.amigoe.com/english/81172-explicit-pictures-of-gardner-on-giordanos-camera
He does confirm one person from the FBI, who is normally stationed in Barbados, is on the island. According to the OM, he coordinates the legal aid requests from Aruba to the United States. Stein does not expect more FIB-officers will come to the island. He states there are sufficient ‘extremely capable people’ in the Kingdom who can assist with the investigation. For example, he names a team with tracking dogs from the KLPD (Corps National Police Services) in The Netherlands that is ‘worldwide renown’ and on request could be deployed in tracing the body.
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 12:26 PM
Not all cell phones work on Aruba
Surely you remember that from the NH case
I thought I read he borrowed a cell phone from someone on the beach?
So far, there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence
I have yet to read whether the signature is a forgery
Have you read that somewhere?
Do you have a link?
Solicitor General Taco Stein said they are considering a range of possible charges, including murder, manslaughter, accidental death and insurance fraud.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9824660
Dushi
09-13-2011, 12:34 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9824660
The key words for me are "considering" and "possible"
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 12:40 PM
Not all cell phones work on Aruba
Surely you remember that from the NH case
In 2011 I would expect that situation to have improved. Have we heard that his phone was not working? RG appears to have had a working phone - she messaged RF at 3 pm - why not use hers? I also see the shape of a cell phone in his right pocket before heading into the restaurant with RG. Why bring a phone if it doesn't work?
neesaki
09-13-2011, 12:40 PM
No idea. I have the same info as everyone else, which isn't much. My guess is money. Either that or they have credible evidence she is not on land. I tend to think the former, though....
Since this post, I did read (on another forum, I think it was) that Aruba doesn't have search dogs, only drug dogs, though I have nothing else to back this up.
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 12:41 PM
The key words for me are "considering" and "possible"
And the key words from my post should be "my opinion only."
Dushi
09-13-2011, 12:45 PM
In 2011 I would expect that situation to have improved. Have we heard that his phone was not working? RG appears to have had a working phone - she messaged RF at 3 pm - why not use hers? I also see the shape of a cell phone in his right pocket before heading into the restaurant with RG. Why bring a phone if it doesn't work?
Why borrow one if it works?
Of course, that could be another rumor reported as fact
Dushi
09-13-2011, 12:47 PM
And the key words from my post should be "my opinion only."
Yes.
Its clear to me that LE has listed any possible charges that could be considered
, imo
annalia
09-13-2011, 12:50 PM
In 2011 I would expect that situation to have improved. Have we heard that his phone was not working? RG appears to have had a working phone - she messaged RF at 3 pm - why not use hers? I also see the shape of a cell phone in his right pocket before heading into the restaurant with RG. Why bring a phone if it doesn't work?
my bolding
True, and didn't the woman who gave the interview in support of GG say that they were texting when he was in Aruba? If so it looks like both of their phones were working. If he traveled out of the country a lot he would probably know to set up his phone for international calling.
JMHO
Dushi
09-13-2011, 12:53 PM
my bolding
True, and didn't the woman who gave the interview in support of GG say that they were texting when he was in Aruba? If so it looks like both of their phones were working. If he traveled out of the country a lot he would probably know to set up his phone for international calling.
JMHO
And yet it has been written that he borrowed one
More attention to himself?
neesaki
09-13-2011, 12:55 PM
Not all cell phones work on Aruba
Surely you remember that from the NH case
I thought I read he borrowed a cell phone from someone on the beach?
So far, there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence
I have yet to read whether the signature is a forgery
Have you read that somewhere?
Do you have a link?
I do remember Richard Forester saying in an interview that he talked to Robyn on her cell phone and he thought it sounded like an international call. So her phone worked on the island. Maybe GG didn't want to use his cell because he knew he didn't want to be tracked and needed anonymity to commit his crime.
kljohnson0458
09-13-2011, 01:02 PM
Is there anyone else here who thinks this truly could have been an accident and not murder. I just don't see this guy plotting to kill RG. Better yet, maybe I'd better just read and not post. LOL!
Dushi
09-13-2011, 01:07 PM
Is there anyone else here who thinks this truly could have been an accident and not murder. I just don't see this guy plotting to kill RG. Better yet, maybe I'd better just read and not post. LOL!
Anything is possible
I know so little and what i do know may be rumor
Its very difficult to form an opinion
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 01:14 PM
Yes.
Its clear to me that LE has listed any possible charges that could be considered
, imo
Considering the major differences in the 2 RG signatures, insurance fraud is evident. This is the major element which points to premeditated murder. TS IMO is considering it because they have evidence of fraud - he would have dropped the idea by now if there was not proof of fraud. The judge sees it too. They know what a monster this guy is. MOO.
Dushi
09-13-2011, 01:21 PM
Considering the major differences in the 2 RG signatures, insurance fraud is evident. This is the major element which points to premeditated murder. TS IMO is considering it because they have evidence of fraud - he would have dropped the idea by now if there was not proof of fraud. The judge sees it too. They know what a monster this guy is. MOO.
You may be correct
But, if you look at the list of charges , accidental is in there too
They seem to be covering all bases, nothing is provable at this point
Charges would be pressed if they had proof, imo
You see two different signatures,they look different to me too
But I don't think anything is evident until charges are laid
If GG purchased that policy in the US, wouldn't it be the FBI who charged him?
And I agree, if and when it can be proven that he forged her signature, it does point to premeditated if and when they can prove murder.
We have no idea what has been put before the judge, closed session
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 01:34 PM
You may be correct
But, if you look at the list of charges , accidental is in there too
They seem to be covering all bases, nothing is provable at this point
Charges would be pressed if they had proof, imo
You see two different signatures,they look different to me too
But I don't think anything is evident until charges are laid
If GG purchased that policy in the US, wouldn't it be the FBI who charged him?
And I agree, if and when it can be proven that he forged her signature, it does point to premeditated if and when they can prove murder.
We have no idea what has been put before the judge, closed session
Charges have not been pressed because evidence is still being collected. I see what you see with the signatures, I don't need Aruba to tell me that fraud is visible. If GG come back to the US I am sure that he would be charged, yes.
Dushi
09-13-2011, 01:41 PM
Charges have not been pressed because evidence is still being collected. I see what you see with the signatures, I don't need Aruba to tell me that fraud is visible. If GG come back to the US I am sure that he would be charged, yes.
So are you saying that they need evidence to charge him?
That they don't have evidence yet?
I think they have circumstantial evidence, but it may not be strong enough for a conviction
As far as the signature, I believe an expert woud make that determination
Several posters here have commented on how different their signature is each time they write it so I think I will wait to see what happens with that before I make my mind up completely
neesaki
09-13-2011, 01:45 PM
I find it really disturbing that so many people seem to be getting away with murder because they are able to dispose of the body and it's never found (such as in Natalee Holloway case, if she was murdered and not sold) or when the body is discovered, it has deteriorated to the point of no forensic evidence, DNA, etc., such as in the Caylee Anthony case. Unfortunately, it's starting to look like this case is going to end up like this as well, either the former or the latter. The question I have is, and I'm sure there's a really good answer which is why I'm asking it: In cases where there's considerable circumstantial evidence that there is foul play by the alleged perpetrator (such as in the NH case and perhaps in this case) and the body is just "missing", if murder charges can not be brought then why is it that kidnapping charges are never a consideration? If someone could help me w/ this? Thx :)
AngelFish
09-13-2011, 01:51 PM
A FB poster just posted a Geraldo exclusive stating that Giordano's family has hired Jose Baez and state that Baez in in Aruba now interviewing witnesses.
neesaki
09-13-2011, 02:25 PM
A FB poster just posted a Geraldo exclusive stating that Giordano's family has hired Jose Baez and state that Baez in in Aruba now interviewing witnesses.
:sick: Can Baez practice in Aruba?
concernedmother
09-13-2011, 02:30 PM
Let the circus begin. I feel sorry for Robyn's family and friends.He will probably use R like he used GA. :(
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 02:30 PM
So are you saying that they need evidence to charge him?
That they don't have evidence yet?
I think they have circumstantial evidence, but it may not be strong enough for a conviction
As far as the signature, I believe an expert woud make that determination
Several posters here have commented on how different their signature is each time they write it so I think I will wait to see what happens with that before I make my mind up completely
I am saying they are still in the evidence collection stage. A body would help get a conviction and a longer sentence. They are also hoping to get a confession. I don't mind the wait, it makes GG agonize over his fate - the wait is torture for his heavy heart. Let him suffer.
This will have a good outcome. It takes time.
Regarding the signatures, I got that sometimes we sign things with slight variance at times. The character of the signatures are markedly different and an expert will weigh in on that publicly soon. MOO. I don't have to wait to make up my mind, you can of course. If TS had not said insurance fraud was a charge they were considering, if GG did not have this in his recent history, I would be less sure. As it stands, I am confident that insurance fraud is the heart of this case.
MOO.
annalia
09-13-2011, 02:33 PM
Considering the major differences in the 2 RG signatures, insurance fraud is evident. This is the major element which points to premeditated murder. TS IMO is considering it because they have evidence of fraud - he would have dropped the idea by now if there was not proof of fraud. The judge sees it too. They know what a monster this guy is. MOO.
my bolding
Not necessarily. In Aruba a person can be held on just suspicion, detaining him without charging him while they continue to investigate.
At the end of this 60 days he may still get released. Look at van der Sloot.
JMHO
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 02:34 PM
A FB poster just posted a Geraldo exclusive stating that Giordano's family has hired Jose Baez and state that Baez in in Aruba now interviewing witnesses.
Baez can't practice law in Aruba.
annalia
09-13-2011, 02:35 PM
:sick: Can Baez practice in Aruba?
I was wondering the same thing.
Dushi
09-13-2011, 02:35 PM
:sick: Can Baez practice in Aruba?
Yes he can
Joe tacopina did
neesaki
09-13-2011, 02:37 PM
Yes he can
Joe tacopina did
What a screwed up system. In the states, you have to be licensed in any state you want to practice in? What's the deal w/ Aruba? :sick:
annalia
09-13-2011, 02:38 PM
Yes he can
Joe tacopina did
iirc Joe Tacopina represented Joran in the US case, not in Aruba. Then he was his mouthpiece in the US media.
Dushi
09-13-2011, 02:40 PM
What a screwed up system. In the states, you have to be licensed in any state you want to practice in? What's the deal w/ Aruba? :sick:
He will work with an Aruban attorney
Dushi
09-13-2011, 02:41 PM
iirc Joe Tacopina represented Joran in the US case, not in Aruba. Then he was his mouthpiece in the US media.
If fraud charges are brought, it will be a US case
And he will be the mouth piece, same as Joe
annalia
09-13-2011, 02:45 PM
If fraud charges are brought, it will be a US case
And he will be the mouth piece, same as Joe
my bolding
Where do you get that?
In the Australia case, the husband was first tried and convicted in Australia, it wasn't until after that case was over, that he was then charged in the US.
If GG isn't charged in Aruba, possibly the US can charge him with fraud, if there is proof of that. If he's charged with murder based on the fraud, it's still an Aruban case, not?
JMHO
Dushi
09-13-2011, 02:47 PM
my bolding
Where do you get that?
In the Australia case, the husband was first tried and convicted in Australia, it wasn't until after that case was over, that he was then charged in the US.
If GG isn't charged in Aruba, possibly the US can charge him with fraud, if there is proof of that. If he's charged with murder based on the fraud, it's still an Aruban case, not?
JMHO
The fraud , if there is fraud, happened in the US
The policy was purchased there, the papers were signed there
I don't know how it would affect a murder charge
annalia
09-13-2011, 02:51 PM
The fraud , if there is fraud, happened in the US
The policy was purchased there, the papers were signed there
I don't know how it would affect a murder charge
Two different things. It originated in the US, yes. If that winds up being the only charge, then perhaps it might become a US case if he's released from Aruba.
That doesn't mean that if insurance fraud was the basis for him murdering RG that it is a US case. He'd still be first tried in Aruba.
JMHO
Dushi
09-13-2011, 02:55 PM
Two different things. It originated in the US, yes. If that winds up being the only charge, then perhaps it might become a US case if he's released from Aruba.
That doesn't mean that if insurance fraud was the basis for him murdering RG that it is a US case. He'd still be first tried in Aruba.
JMHO
The murder charge would come first yes.
I don't know how Aruba could try him for a crime that happened in a different country
Its a motive, yes and could decide their case
annalia
09-13-2011, 03:00 PM
The murder charge would come first yes.
I don't know how Aruba could try him for a crime that happened in a different country
Its a motive, yes and could decide their case
The alleged murder, disappearance, happened in Aruba.
van der Sloot's extortion plot against Beth Holloway originated from Aruba, yet he was charged in the US. If the basis for a criminal charge is based solely on where it originated, why didn't Aruba arrest and charge him also?
chasing.halos
09-13-2011, 03:17 PM
Oh. Em. Gee. Jose Baez again? Sigh. I can imagine him wearing a tropical fabric pocket square. Wonder what he will sell to media outlets to pay for his assistance.
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 03:29 PM
my bolding
Not necessarily. In Aruba a person can be held on just suspicion, detaining him without charging him while they continue to investigate.
At the end of this 60 days he may still get released. Look at van der Sloot.
JMHO
They will charge him eventually. I would bet money on it. Insurance fraud is the smoking gun. The motive was 1.5 million. The JVS case is different.
MOO.
AngelFish
09-13-2011, 03:50 PM
:sick: Can Baez practice in Aruba?
I don't think so. I suspect there are charges Giordano's way in the USA.
annalia
09-13-2011, 03:55 PM
They will charge him eventually. I would bet money on it. Insurance fraud is the smoking gun. The motive was 1.5 million. The JVS case is different.
MOO.
All I meant was with the way their system works, just because his detention was extended doesn't necessarily mean it's because they have evidence to charge him, it could all be based on just more suspicion.
You could be right, to me the signatures look very different and it looks forged, but I'm no handwriting expert. I wish we could see some different examples of Robyn's signature to compare.
If it turns out that he didn't forge the signatures, what do you make of the policy he took out with the other woman, the one that said she would sign another one? Do you think there might be a possibility that could actually help him? His defense that he did it before and nothing happened therefore this doesn't prove murder?
Dushi
09-13-2011, 03:56 PM
The alleged murder, disappearance, happened in Aruba.
van der Sloot's extortion plot against Beth Holloway originated from Aruba, yet he was charged in the US. If the basis for a criminal charge is based solely on where it originated, why didn't Aruba arrest and charge him also?
Probably because this was some type of set-up sting that was hatched in America and the Arubans don't play those games. Jose Baez got a Not Guilty Verdict against all the odds, if anyone can get GG off, it will be Jose Baez, he is like a British Bulldog, once he has you in his teeth, he never lets go.
I have a Non American Friend who predicted the Casey Anthony Verdict 100% as well as The Dominique Strauss-Kahn case, perhaps this is because as an Non American, he sees these cases Objectively and is not swayed by the American Media Circus and relies on the cold facts of the case.
annalia
09-13-2011, 04:06 PM
Probably because this was some type of set-up sting that was hatched in America and the Arubans don't play those games. Jose Baez got a Not Guilty Verdict against all the odds, if anyone can get GG off, it will be Jose Baez, he is like a British Bulldog, once he has you in his teeth, he never lets go.
I have a Non American Friend who predicted the Casey Anthony Verdict 100% as well as The Dominique Strauss-Kahn case, perhaps this is because as an Non American, he sees these cases Objectively and is not swayed by the American Media Circus and relies on the cold facts of the case.
my bolding
Not true The FBI had all of the emails. It originated with van der Sloot in Aruba. Aruban officials at the time came out and said that they were working closely together with the FBI on it.
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 04:10 PM
The murder charge would come first yes.
I don't know how Aruba could try him for a crime that happened in a different country
Its a motive, yes and could decide their case
TS specifically said they are considering charging him with insurance fraud, among other charges. I already gave you a link for that. Why are you suggesting Aruba can't do that - do you have a link?
Dushi
09-13-2011, 04:15 PM
my bolding
Not true The FBI had all of the emails. It originated with van der Sloot in Aruba. Aruban officials at the time came out and said that they were working closely together with the FBI on it.
IMO it was a set up
Dushi
09-13-2011, 04:17 PM
TS specifically said they are considering charging him with insurance fraud, among other charges. I already gave you a link for that. Why are you suggesting Aruba can't do that - do you have a link?
I said I don't know how Aruba could charge him
And... I have no link to my opinion
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 04:20 PM
All I meant was with the way their system works, just because his detention was extended doesn't necessarily mean it's because they have evidence to charge him, it could all be based on just more suspicion.
You could be right, to me the signatures look very different and it looks forged, but I'm no handwriting expert. I wish we could see some different examples of Robyn's signature to compare.
If it turns out that he didn't forge the signatures, what do you make of the policy he took out with the other woman, the one that said she would sign another one? Do you think there might be a possibility that could actually help him? His defense that he did it before and nothing happened therefore this doesn't prove murder?
That woman is not reliable as she is close to GG. She is not willing to state her name or show her face. Where is the proof? IF it is true, then why is RG not the actual signer on at least one of those forms? I realize some people want an expert to weigh in - understandable. After reading up on the subject, after hearing of his other fraud, and after closely examining the signatures, I am confident that an expert will say the same thing. MOO.
Dushi
09-13-2011, 04:23 PM
Let me see if I can be very clear
IF Aruba does not file murder charges and GG leaves... who will file fraud charges if there is proof of that?
Will he go back to the US to faces charges for a crime that happened in the US?
Dushi
09-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Gary Giordano is currently in a Aruba jail on suspicion that he had something to do with the disappearance of fellow-American Robyn Gardner. Giordano’s family has now hired Jose Baez, who represented Casey Anthony in her murder trial.
Baez is apparently in Aruba interviewing witnesses.
http://foxnewsinsider.com
ledwards
09-13-2011, 05:38 PM
oh my gosh!
neesaki
09-13-2011, 05:55 PM
I don't know that GG hiring an attorney who is believed by most to have helped a child murderer go free will necessarily help him. JMO
RR0004
09-13-2011, 06:01 PM
Baez can't practice law in Aruba.
Seems to me, he hates being out of the spotlight. Is he offering his services pro bono?
ETA: so he was hired? How can that be?
belimom
09-13-2011, 06:04 PM
I am just... :thud:
RR0004
09-13-2011, 06:05 PM
In 2011 I would expect that situation to have improved. Have we heard that his phone was not working? RG appears to have had a working phone - she messaged RF at 3 pm - why not use hers? I also see the shape of a cell phone in his right pocket before heading into the restaurant with RG. Why bring a phone if it doesn't work?
If it was a Blackberry you can message others who have a Blackberry.
Aruba is as close to the equator as you can get, pretty much. I needed to rent a cell phone there.
Salem
09-13-2011, 06:37 PM
WARNING: Do not turn this thread into a JB thread. This is about finding Robyn - not about the suspect's lawyer. Do NOT post a bunch of JB trashing posts - they will be removed and TOs will be issued. Just don't go there. You may comment, but keep it clean and don't confuse our purpose here.
Salem
Micheline
09-13-2011, 06:44 PM
The beach is a significant distance from the restaurant. He would have driven to it. He apparently felt it was important to report her missing to someone in person, as he had a cell phone in his possessions. Assuming he knew it would take this much knocking on doors, etc. and was part of the plan however is a stretch.
The last photos of them are from a surveillance camera, not a blackberry. If you look at JADS FB you can see the cameras. I don't have the exact link.
http://facebook.com/jadsaruba
He was scouting the area the day before IMO. He also wanted to have more sex with her before killing her, so that is why the death occurred on Aug 2. MOO.
The case will get a murder conviction because of the fraud on her beneficiary form, the 1.5 million dollar premium policy taken out on her, his story inconsistencies, his past showing his character towards women, and the fact future Aruba tourism depends on getting tough on this type of crime. MOO.
-bolded by me.
HS I did not know this, are you sure he would have to take his car to go from the beach to the RumReef to look for someone? TIA
HatesSociopaths
09-13-2011, 07:29 PM
-bolded by me.
HS I did not know this, are you sure he would have to take his car to go from the beach to the RumReef to look for someone? TIA
There is a video showing Martin Savidge driving from the restaurant to the point on the beach where he says they went snorkeling. It took some time to get there. I will see if I can find it. He would not have to take his car, it is just the logical choice as the car would have been right there to do so, and would get him there a little faster. But logic would also say he could have used one of their phones to call 911 (unless they were not working.)
Micheline
09-13-2011, 07:36 PM
There is a video showing Martin Savidge driving from the restaurant to the point on the beach where he says they went snorkeling. It took some time to get there. I will see if I can find it. He would not have to take his car, it is just the logical choice as the car would have been right there to do so, and would get him there much faster.
OK Thanks in advance HS. I will try to look for the video too.
neesaki
09-13-2011, 07:55 PM
There is a video showing Martin Savidge driving from the restaurant to the point on the beach where he says they went snorkeling. It took some time to get there. I will see if I can find it. He would not have to take his car, it is just the logical choice as the car would have been right there to do so, and would get him there a little faster. But logic would also say he could have used one of their phones to call 911 (unless they were not working.)
Also, it was reported earlier on, that they drove the car from the Rum Reef down to the beach, which if it were close enough, one would assume they would just walk.
plaidmom
09-13-2011, 08:18 PM
I would just like to point out that IF (huge if) GG is telling the truth (collective gasp here LOL) and he swam to shore to seek help after RG was caught in a rip current, then he did indeed do the right thing.
The idea that an untrained companion can help a swimmer caught in a riptide is ludicrous.
It has nothing to do with chivalry.
If you are swimming (or snorkling or diving ....) with someone else who is caught in a rip current your very best bet is to swim to shore and get help!
Otherwise you will most likely end up as victim #2. And you know that SAR loves that!
;P
sunsetbeach
09-13-2011, 09:15 PM
OMG!! I just heard the news about Baez. I am floored. Will this man ever go away??
Money Girl
09-13-2011, 10:00 PM
Seems to me, he hates being out of the spotlight. Is he offering his services pro bono?
ETA: so he was hired? How can that be?
Hope JB gets paid for his services on this case.
Tugela
09-13-2011, 10:28 PM
Considering the major differences in the 2 RG signatures, insurance fraud is evident. This is the major element which points to premeditated murder. TS IMO is considering it because they have evidence of fraud - he would have dropped the idea by now if there was not proof of fraud. The judge sees it too. They know what a monster this guy is. MOO.
If fraud was the only charge, that would be done in the US, not Aruba, since that is where the crime would have occurred. Someone would have to make a complaint (the insurance company) first, and I'm pretty sure they would do that in a US jursidiction.
An allegation of fraud by TS would be more along the lines of providing motive in more serious charges.
Reality Orlando
09-13-2011, 10:30 PM
Baez has been hired to represent Gary Giordano, who is being held in Aruba in the disappearance of Robyn Gardner.
ABC News says that Baez confirmed that he will be joining Giordano’s defense team and was in Aruba on the case. TMZ reports that Baez will consult on forensic evidence in the case.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2011/09/jose-baez-he-has-been-hired-to-represent-suspect-in-aruba.html
Magdalyn
09-13-2011, 10:32 PM
I would just like to point out that IF (huge if) GG is telling the truth (collective gasp here LOL) and he swam to shore to seek help after RG was caught in a rip current, then he did indeed do the right thing.
The idea that an untrained companion can help a swimmer caught in a riptide is ludicrous.
It has nothing to do with chivalry.
If you are swimming (or snorkling or diving ....) with someone else who is caught in a rip current your very best bet is to swim to shore and get help!
Otherwise you will most likely end up as victim #2. And you know that SAR loves that!
;P
If you were referring to my comment (re: his lack of concern about his date), I totally agree that what you've described is what you'd do if you were caught in a riptide.
I didn't suggest he should/could help her had they been caught in a riptide. My meaning was this: What I find unbelievable, is that he never looked back/over his shoulder one single time to visualize her progress/location. I would think that would be a natural human impulse to look at least once. Wouldn't it be more helpful if you could say, "I last saw her about XX yards from shore. As opposed to ... I don't know where she could have gone down or when. I never looked back one single time.
neesaki
09-13-2011, 10:41 PM
If you were referring to my comment (re: his lack of concern about his date), I totally agree that what you've described is what you'd do if you were caught in a riptide.
I didn't suggest he should/could help her had they been caught in a riptide. My meaning was this: What I find unbelievable, is that he never looked back/over his shoulder one single time to visualize her progress/location. I would think that would be a natural human impulse to look at least once. Wouldn't it be more helpful if you could say, "I last saw her about XX yards from shore. As opposed to ... I don't know where she could have gone down or when. I never looked back one single time.
Well, we may not have absolute proof of what he did or didn't do, but at the very least I think it's safe to say that this GG guy is not exactly the heroic type. :doh:
Wise Old Owl
09-13-2011, 10:44 PM
:thud:
chicoliving
09-13-2011, 10:50 PM
:lol:
Innocent Bystander
09-13-2011, 11:20 PM
If it was a Blackberry you can message others who have a Blackberry.
Aruba is as close to the equator as you can get, pretty much. I needed to rent a cell phone there.
I was in Aruba in August of 2010... Now my cellphone worked there and I have just an ordinary Verizon wireless account... No smartphone, no international type of dialing plan... :waitasec:
momtective
09-13-2011, 11:37 PM
:giggle: It'll be fun watching him flail around like a fish out of water without the "et.al." I'm thinking this case will certainly prove just how truly inept he really is.
Tugela
09-13-2011, 11:52 PM
I was in Aruba in August of 2010... Now my cellphone worked there and I have just an ordinary Verizon wireless account... No smartphone, no international type of dialing plan... :waitasec:
If you are in a location without reception it won't. Like an out of the way beach for example. Then there is the question of who do you call when you don't know the local emergency procedures. And if you do find someone to call, how do you tell them where you are....do you say something like "hey! I'm on a beach somewhere, please send help". That doesnt help much.
The best plan in that sort of situation is find locals. That is what I would do.
Tugela
09-14-2011, 12:00 AM
If you were referring to my comment (re: his lack of concern about his date), I totally agree that what you've described is what you'd do if you were caught in a riptide.
I didn't suggest he should/could help her had they been caught in a riptide. My meaning was this: What I find unbelievable, is that he never looked back/over his shoulder one single time to visualize her progress/location. I would think that would be a natural human impulse to look at least once. Wouldn't it be more helpful if you could say, "I last saw her about XX yards from shore. As opposed to ... I don't know where she could have gone down or when. I never looked back one single time.
Not if you were panicking you wouldn't. You would swim like crazy for shore, as would 99% of everyone else.
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 12:10 AM
OK Thanks in advance HS. I will try to look for the video too.
I had no luck with finding the video. This may be helpful, though it doesn't have a distance scale:
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8756/91408438.jpg
RR0004
09-14-2011, 12:13 AM
I was in Aruba in August of 2010... Now my cellphone worked there and I have just an ordinary Verizon wireless account... No smartphone, no international type of dialing plan... :waitasec:
Not Sprint...unless you call and set it up. I hear some islands will get certain cell carriers...heard mine would work in Turks and Caicos...nope didn't happen...had to rent a phone...lol. But, it worked fine in the Bahamas...and I have still yet to be charged for any of the calls and that was years ago.
RR0004
09-14-2011, 12:19 AM
I've worked in travel for years...had some pretty big clients...and no one ever bought, yet alone inquired, about travel insurance in that amount. That's the biggest red flag in all this IMO. I know many might think why would he do something so obvious, but without a body, what did he do?
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 12:20 AM
But Forester finally did hear back from Gardner around 3 p.m., just hours before Giordano reported her missing. “She sent me an inbox message on Facebook saying, ‘I love you, I care about you and we’ll talk about this and sort it out when we get back.’ ”
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44102681/ns/today-today_people/t/boyfriend-fears-safety-woman-missing-aruba/
From the video we know that RG was at the restaurant at around 3 p.m. If her phone can send FB messages, would it not be able to make a 911 call?
neesaki
09-14-2011, 12:23 AM
There's just something really wrong with this whole picture. Would any one here take a trip somewhere, whether it's the Bahamas, Mexico, Puerto Rico, or Aruba, with a friend, someone who is not your spouse, and take out a 1.5 million dollar life insurance policy out on them w/ you as the beneficiary?
neesaki
09-14-2011, 12:27 AM
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44102681/ns/today-today_people/t/boyfriend-fears-safety-woman-missing-aruba/
From the video we know that RG was at the restaurant at around 3 p.m. If her phone can send FB messages, would it not be able to make a 911 call?
Robyn's BF, Richard Forester, talked to her on the phone her first day in Aruba, according to his interview on HLN. I would think a 911 call could be made as well? :)
Salem
09-14-2011, 12:31 AM
Bumping.
WARNING: Do not turn this thread into a JB thread. This is about finding Robyn - not about the suspect's lawyer. Do NOT post a bunch of JB trashing posts - they will be removed and TOs will be issued. Just don't go there. You may comment, but keep it clean and don't confuse our purpose here.
Salem
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 12:35 AM
I've worked in travel for years...had some pretty big clients...and no one ever bought, yet alone inquired, about travel insurance in that amount. That's the biggest red flag in all this IMO. I know many might think why would he do something so obvious, but without a body, what did he do?
I was working on my profile of GG this evening and one element of his character that I have concluded is that he felt he could commit crimes without getting caught.
This is from former FBI profiler Robert Ressler on the subject of how to profile, one element being "Offender Risk":
Offender Risk.Data on victim risk (note by me: Victim risk is determined using such factors as age, occupation, life-style, and physical stature of the victim, and is classified as high, moderate, or low) is integrated with information on offender risk, or the risk the offender was taking to commit the crime. For example, abducting a victim at noon from a busy street is high risk. Thus, that a low-risk victim is snatched under high-risk circumstances generates ideas about the offender, such as personal stresses he is operating under, his belief that he will not be apprehended, the excitement he needs in the commission of the crime, or his emotional maturity.
(p.141 Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives by Robert K. Ressler)
Examining what we know about GG's past, I find him showing a high-risk mentality. He has allegedly raped a woman (though she dropped the charges, reportedly under harassment from GG at the time prompting her to do so), sought 5 million under a contract he himself fabricated out of whole cloth, stolen jewelry from Costco and then sued them for putting him in jail for it, hid in trees outside a woman's house in a jackalope mask, etc. High Risk, and appearing to be quite confident he is able to escape reprimand.
My point is that GG appears quite capable of doing something so obvious as setting up a 1.5 million dollar payout for an "accidental death" of a claimed (on the beneficiary form itself) "domestic partner" who wasn't, and forging the document to boot.
MOO.
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 12:59 AM
The element of this case that has my attention at the moment is the fact AMEX says the following in it's policy:
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2421/1year.jpg
One year wait with no body.
For someone who appears to have planned this, I find this to be the clue that something went wrong on the island. He brought snorkeling gear so I do think that he had in mind the "accidental death" to have been during that, but I don't think he would have missed this point. His former attorney stressed how careful GG was in planning things. It is a big oversight for someone with that in his character. It is a big oversight for anyone.
There is the possibility he was willing to wait a year, but from the AMEX information coming out about his phone calls to them, I don't get that.
So my theory is that his plan ran afoul, as I've covered earlier. She wasn't into the snorkeling idea. Had she been, he could have held her head under water and brought her back to shore, saying she drowned.
Combined with his attitude that he can commit crimes without getting caught, I think he improvised "on the fly" with his plan and did something else instead. Confident he could fool authorities that she was lost at sea, he disposed of the body at another location.
Would he have taken the risk to be seen at another part of the coast putting the body into the water? Or would he have just dumped her body somewhere discreet on land?
And then there is the fact no body has washed up to shore. It is difficult to establish what is fact and what is opinion about how likely it is that a body washes back to shore on that island. I welcome more feedback on that point.
Ultimately, the main thing I feel should be stressed is that without a thorough search for her on land, one cannot be certain that no body is there to be found. I feel it very well may turn up if looked for with earnest.
Well, Jose can't get lucky twice, is what I am thinking....LOL:floorlaugh:
neesaki
09-14-2011, 01:17 AM
Would he have taken the risk to be seen at another part of the coast putting the body into the water? Or would he have just dumped her body somewhere discreet on land?
It still spooks me the way GG was witnessed to be staring at his watch and made the statement "she might be dead now", as though he knew wherever he left her, there was an element of time involved before she would die.
neesaki
09-14-2011, 03:10 AM
Don't think it's really anything new, but here's the latest from the dailymail.co.uk.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2036659/Robyn-Gardner-missing-Aruba-Video-shows-Gary-Giordano-taking-Robyn-beach-disappear-day-later.html
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 04:56 AM
OK Thanks in advance HS. I will try to look for the video too.
This is the video of the fisherman, which is a different one than the video I was talking about, but you can see the restaurant in the background. It also is evidence he drove to the spot.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/26/robyn-gardner-fisherman_n_938285.html#s326251&title=Robyn_Gardner
PS
Though there is another fisherman who says they left the area together, I find it interesting this guy does not. He also helps in looking for her in the water. And he also says sharks were seen....
Is it possible the other fisherman had the earlier day confused with the day she disappeared? Something else about his account is that it came about two weeks afterward, which would make it even more possible he mixed the days up.
But a fisherman said he saw the couple from his boat Aug. 2, when Gardner last was seen. They didn’t even get in the water, much less go snorkeling, the fisherman said, according to law enforcement sources. The couple left the beach together, according to the fisherman. That doesn’t match Giordano’s timeline, according to sources.
“That story has not been proven yet,” Solicitor General Taco Stein said. “It has not been anchored in reality, but if that statement, there is reality, it’s something that might change the path of the investigation.”
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K3PkdTHVeggJ:www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/New-Search-New-Witness-in-Aruba-128207283.html
Is it possible this account was not "anchored in reality"?
It would appear from the recent statement about the Hyundai that investigators suspect his car was still there.
A white Hyundai Getz can be seen on the still shot and the video, driving in northern direction at about 17.59 PM on the road between the Rum Reef Restaurant and the sea. Following the statements of the suspect G.V.G., the driver of this car and the passengers could have seen the white Toyota RAV 4, the rental car the suspect and the woman R.G. drove during their stay on Aruba, parked near the sea behind the Rum Reef Restaurant.It is possible that they have also seen the man G.V.G. and the woman R.G.
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 05:29 AM
In Aruba, Baez can serve in an advisory role and provide other assistance but he cannot argue in court, Lopez said. “If my client wants me to share all information with Baez, I will do so, even though his role will be that of a consultant,” he said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/americas/casey-anthony-lawyer-jose-baez-to-represent-us-man-detained-in-aruba-missing-tourist-case/2011/09/13/gIQApyPZQK_story.html
GG first chooses Aruba (JVS got away with murder) then JB (who helped FCA to get away with murder). Could it be that GG wants to get away with murder too? :snake:
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 06:14 AM
JB can only do so much. GG thought he was clever in choosing Aruba. Now he faces interrogations with no attorney present, and confinement with no bail or charges filed yet. Plus the trial has these ground rules:
TRIAL
Suspects have right to trial within a reasonable period of time.
Public hearing
No trial by jury, but by a professional judge
No plea-bargaining
No death penalty
No permission required by the prosecutor from the court to go to trial
Indictment presented, at the prerogative of the prosecutor, after investigations have taken place
Defense will have chance to cross-examine witnesses before an examining judge.
Maximum sentences: (i) Life imprisonment; or (ii) limited time. Section 11 Criminal Code
Maximum sentence of limited time sentence is 20 years i.e. 15 plus 5.
Life sentencing has been issued in the past by the Courts.
Death sentence abolished since late 1800's and since then no serious attempts to re-instate same.
Role of the examining judge: (i) during pre-trial to independently examine the legality of procedural aspects and well-being of suspects; (ii) upon instruction of the trialing judge to examine or cross-examine witnesses at request of defense; cannot take the role of a trial judge.
Examining judge as a rule not the same individual as trialing judge, to ensure objectivity and impartiality.
http://www.aruba.com/explorearuba/islandfacts/law.aspx
Magdalyn
09-14-2011, 07:41 AM
Not if you were panicking you wouldn't. You would swim like crazy for shore, as would 99% of everyone else.
Please don't speak for me, I can assure you, even when panicking, I'd take 1/10th of a second to glance over my shoulder to see if you were dead, alive, or ahead of me so that maybe you could go for help for me.
Do you have link that shows how 99% of how people react in a riptide when in the ocean with a partner?
Second, can anyone show me a link where GG stated to LE that they were caught in a riptide, swimming in a panic, swimming for their lives? :waitasec: Articles I've seen indicate GG stated that the water started to get rough, he tapped on her leg, signaled they should head in, swam to shore... oops! She's gone.
Never once have I read that he stated he/they were swimming for their lives trying to break out of a riptide.
Last, I'm never going to buy "99% react this way in blah blah blah situation...." I've just watched a video making the media rounds of at least a dozen people run TOWARD a completely engulfed in flames motorcycle and partially engulfed car. Is it smart to run TOWARD flames approaching a car's gas tank? Is it logical for them to believe they could lift the car? Run away from the flames, call for help, everyone says so. No, they ran towards, to lift the car off a STRANGER. Every single one of those people were not in the '99% people'. People all react differently in panic, and emergencies, and some actually become numb, then calm and focused, some do panic and become self focused, some ignore all the rules they know and will break rules to look out for a stranger.
Dushi
09-14-2011, 09:31 AM
Jose Baez confirmed in a text message to the AP that he has been hired to defend Gary Giordano., who was detained in Aruba Aug. 5 after his traveling companion, 35-year-old Robyn Gardner, went missing. Giordano told police Gardner disappeared while snorkeling. Giordano is the only suspect in her presumed death.
According to Giordano’s Aruban lawyer, Michael Lopez, Baez was retained by Giordano’s father. Lopez said Baez will serve as a “consultant.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/crime-scene/post/aruba-suspects-family-hires-casey-anthonys-attorney/2011/09/14/gIQAHwEmRK_blog.html
So, JB will work with GGs Aruban attorney
neesaki
09-14-2011, 09:37 AM
Articles I've seen indicate GG stated that the water started to get rough, he tapped on her leg, signaled they should head in, swam to shore... oops! She's gone.
If they actually were in the water, which I've had my doubts from the beginning, could it be that GG is alluding to a grain of truth in his "tapped on her leg" statement? Only, instead of tapping on her leg he grabbed her leg and pulled her under? :(
Isabelle
09-14-2011, 09:43 AM
The AMEX statement shown in post #152, appears to say that the accident has to involve a passenger who disappeared while on an airplane. I don't read it to say that the policy would cover any other accident outside of an airplane, such as drowning while snorkeling or any other accident that may take a life that occurs outside of an airplane. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.
Kamille
09-14-2011, 10:17 AM
The AMEX statement shown in post #152, appears to say that the accident has to involve a passenger who disappeared while on an airplane. I don't read it to say that the policy would cover any other accident outside of an airplane, such as drowning while snorkeling or any other accident that may take a life that occurs outside of an airplane. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.
I see it that way too. Has it ever been determined if GG travelled with any of his ex's or anyone for that matter where he took out a life insurance policy with him as the beneficiary and they returned unharmed?
CarolinaWoman
09-14-2011, 10:23 AM
Greta Van Susteren was able to keep the Natalie Holloway case in the media for months ... Geraldo will probably do the same for Jose and Giordano. Geraldo will announce soon how poor Gary Giordano is being railroaded in Aruba. :twocents:
Dushi
09-14-2011, 10:35 AM
I see it that way too. Has it ever been determined if GG travelled with any of his ex's or anyone for that matter where he took out a life insurance policy with him as the beneficiary and they returned unharmed?
There is mention of GG travelling with an ex with a policy in post #840
I can't find the link but maybe the poster can find it for you
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 11:10 AM
I see it that way too. Has it ever been determined if GG travelled with any of his ex's or anyone for that matter where he took out a life insurance policy with him as the beneficiary and they returned unharmed?
The second part of the text regarding "no remains found" is including other types of accidental deaths. Accidental drowning would be covered.
Read the full document here:
https://www295.americanexpress.com/travel-insurance/home.do?aetiSource=G&extlink=pa-aeti-G#99
Hmmm...
Let's see...Jose concocts the ridiculous notion that Caylee had drown. Casey goes free.
Gary takes Robyn on vacation.
Says she allegedly drowns.
Now hires Baez to consult.
How convenient.
Boy, Baez must be experiencing deja vu.
Mendara
09-14-2011, 01:53 PM
It still spooks me the way GG was witnessed to be staring at his watch and made the statement "she might be dead now", as though he knew wherever he left her, there was an element of time involved before she would die.
I can't stop thinking that maybe she was a part of this and got away before the searches and police got involved.
I mean she had every reason to want a payout and change her life.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe they were willing to wait for the money.
mo
Mendara
09-14-2011, 01:56 PM
Hmmm...
Let's see...Jose concocts the ridiculous notion that Caylee had drown. Casey goes free.
Gary takes Robyn on vacation.
Says she allegedly drowns.
Now hires Baez to consult.
How convenient.
Boy, Baez must be experiencing deja vu.
He is an expert in the drowning theory. But also, seems to have pulled off a miracle in getting KC aquitted.
Dushi
09-14-2011, 02:06 PM
I can't stop thinking that maybe she was a part of this and got away before the searches and police got involved.
I mean she had every reason to want a payout and change her life.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe they were willing to wait for the money.
mo
That thought has crossed my mind as well
With her tattoos and face all over the news, where would she go?
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 02:17 PM
I can't stop thinking that maybe she was a part of this and got away before the searches and police got involved.
I mean she had every reason to want a payout and change her life.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe they were willing to wait for the money.
mo
"Change her life" is one thing - disappearing off the face of the Earth, hoping for a share of the pay-out from a guy she reportedly had misgivings about prior to this, putting your friends and family through hell, breaking the law, risking a prison sentence and going into hiding into a lonely seclusion are another.
MOO.
Dushi
09-14-2011, 02:26 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/09/casey-anthonys-attorney-jose-baez-to-rep-gary-giordano-in-aruba/
Source says Federal Grand Jury in Maryland is investigating
A re-enactment is being planned in Aruba
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 03:11 PM
With that last video I now can compare initials on the two Beneficiary Forms:
July 27, 2011 RG initials:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/922/rg727.jpg
May 10, 2011 RG initials:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4066/rg512initials.jpg
Also of note: the printed handwriting on the May 10 form is Giordano's - you can tell by comparing it with his own form. The July 27 form is a completely different style, and appears to be someone else's. Possibly Robyn or Gary of course, but possibly an accomplice? Perhaps the same person who has gone on Nancy Grace, ABC, etc. to say she signed these for GG as well and would do so again?
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 03:48 PM
I wish I had something in Robyn's handwriting, both printed and her signature.
It is the second beneficiary form, July 27, that could lead to a huge breakthrough. The interesting thing to note, is basically the following:
1. If that is not Robyn's signature or printed handwriting on the July 27 form, it is very likely also not Giordano's. His printed handwriting looks much different. It is quite sloppy, and can be viewed on his own form. He could have taken careful measures to write with a completely different style, but maybe not, considering he didn't do that on the May 10 form. The million dollar question is, who is it then that filled out that form? The simplest answer is Robyn herself filled the thing out. I would need to see her handwriting and signature samples to know. But that is easily done by authorities.
2. If it wasn't Robyn, the person running to his side and appearing on the talk shows is the number one suspect, IMO. She is setting up to be the Cindy Anthony of this trial, the opposite of an Amber Frey. What does her handwriting look like? This is easy for the authorities to look into.
3. If it is her, this could lead to a huge breakthrough in the case. The biggest reason is because she is not likely a hardened criminal like Giordano, and could be broken in an interrogation, full confession, bam, full murder conviction for Giordano and a heavy sentence.
MOO.
ETA: Having a girlfriend as an accomplice in a multi-million dollar fraud scam is not new with Giordano. This is from about a year and a half ago:
Court records also indicate Mr. Giordano, who runs the temporary staffing business Leverage LLC out of his home, filed a multimillion-dollar lawsuit on behalf of his company in January 2010 against another staffing company, claiming he was owed money for placing an employee at federal home mortgage lender Freddie Mac in 2007.
But the defendant company in the case contended that Mr. Giordano forged a signature to fraudulently produce the contract that he later sued the company over.
An executive with the defendant company said in court papers that Mr. Giordano’s girlfriend at the time — who was also a friend of the executive’s wife — had told him that “Gary asked her if she could get a copy of my signature.”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/23/suspect-in-aruba-claimed-money-woes/
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 03:57 PM
March 30 form by mystery person:
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1680/330st.jpg
July 3 form by mystery person:
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3637/73date.jpg
July 27 RG Beneficiary form:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1215/727date.jpg
I would say they look different - the 7-27 form has a greater slant on the 7, the 11 tilts to the right, and all numbers are raised from the line to place the date on, unlike the other 2. So someone other than the mystery woman (who filled out the forms on March 30 and July 3) filled out the July 27 form. MOO.
Need to see Robyn's handwriting samples to know if it was her.
Lera213
09-14-2011, 04:03 PM
So will JB get hints for his client via WS again?
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 04:36 PM
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/922/rg727.jpg
July 27 form. Note the way the R is started in the initials.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1205/signaturerg.jpg
May 10 form. Note the way the R is started in the signature.
That looks very similar.
If that is the same person who signed the May 10 form that initialed the July 27 form, then why did the July 27 signature come out with this kind of R - the signer starts their R at the bottom instead of to the left:
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5585/rgsig727.jpg
LambChop
09-14-2011, 05:03 PM
Totally agree, do you have any idea at all why they haven't brought in search dogs? Thx:)
I believe the dogs have to be brought in from the States or Holland. States are closer. The area they were in is very, very rocky, rough, jagged rocks. Going into the water past the baby beach (a protected cove) portion is dangerous and you better be a good swimmer. That area and the back side of the island has extremely strong currents and swimming is often prohibited because of the undertoe. That is why he had on the sneakers if he was in the water. Tough to walk in that area. Plus that time of day....fish are feeding. There are sharks in that area and the backside. There are cliffs close to Baby Beach and in the time he was suppose to be snorkeling he could have had her near the cliffs. Plus who goes in the water with just a couple of drinks much less snorkeling.
Baby Beach, itself, is a nice beach. Great for the family because the protective beach area is very shallow, warm and lots of sand. Kids love it.
I'm sorry for RG's family but I must say Aruban police are very thorough. The court system is just different than ours. They protect their own but when I had a break in and thief in my condo they sent out five LE and I was satisfied with the results. The native Arubans are very honest people but they have to bring workers from other countries and some of our American criminals like to vacation there, too. So there is crime there but much of it is from outsiders. I still feel it is one of the safest countries to travel to. jmo
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 05:11 PM
The following is all opinion, just looking at how these pieces might fit together, other than the simple explanation that RG signed these forms herself.
Working hypothesis: There is an accomplice to the filling out of these forms. A copy of Robyn's signature was not obtained until the trip to Aruba, thus the variance in signatures. The accomplice was gotten so as to be used as proof that he took out accidental death insurance on other women, and as a witness to his good character. The accomplice was involved in the crime immediately so as to ensure full participation, thus was gotten to sign/fill-out the forms.
Motive for the accompice: In love with GG and wanting to be rid of competition, and share in the pay-out. I would also opine that she was manipulated and pressured into doing so.
This hypothesis falls apart if that is Robyn's handwriting and signature on the forms. But again, those two signatures are markedly different in my non-expert opinion. I hope we get further information on this point soon from an expert on handwriting.
LambChop
09-14-2011, 05:13 PM
Robyn's BF, Richard Forester, talked to her on the phone her first day in Aruba, according to his interview on HLN. I would think a 911 call could be made as well? :)
Yes, he could have made the call.
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 05:16 PM
I believe the dogs have to be brought in from the States or Holland. States are closer. The area they were in is very, very rocky, rough, jagged rocks. Going into the water past the baby beach (a protected cove) portion is dangerous and you better be a good swimmer. That area and the back side of the island has extremely strong currents and swimming is often prohibited because of the undertoe. That is why he had on the sneakers if he was in the water. Tough to walk in that area. Plus that time of day....fish are feeding. There are sharks in that area and the backside. There are cliffs close to Baby Beach and in the time he was suppose to be snorkeling he could have had her near the cliffs. Plus who goes in the water with just a couple of drinks much less snorkeling.
Baby Beach, itself, is a nice beach. Great for the family because the protective beach area is very shallow, warm and lots of sand. Kids love it.
I'm sorry for RG's family but I must say Aruban police are very thorough. The court system is just different than ours. They protect their own but when I had a break in and thief in my condo they sent out five LE and I was satisfied with the results. The native Arubans are very honest people but they have to bring workers from other countries and some of our American criminals like to vacation there, too. So there is crime there but much of it is from outsiders. I still feel it is one of the safest countries to travel to. jmo
Thanks for the info. Great to have a local weigh in. Would you say it is reasonable that Gary would have risked being seen to carry Robyn to a cliff and throw her in the water? Are there areas where he could have felt the coast is clear (no pun intended) to do so? TIA.
Micheline
09-14-2011, 06:47 PM
I had no luck with finding the video. This may be helpful, though it doesn't have a distance scale:
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8756/91408438.jpg
Thank you HS.
The location where they allegedly went swiiming is that all the way to the left? TIA
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 06:49 PM
Thank you HS.
The location where they allegedly went swiiming is that all the way to the left? TIA
Yes it is.
Micheline
09-14-2011, 06:56 PM
It still spooks me the way GG was witnessed to be staring at his watch and made the statement "she might be dead now", as though he knew wherever he left her, there was an element of time involved before she would die.
-bolded by me.
I do not think this occured since GG does not wear a watch in any of the pic/video released of him on Aruba; not on the security camera footage (knocking on shutters), not on the footage with Robyn, not on the pics/video during the evening search, not on the pics from the next day.
http://www.24ora.com/cache/multithumb_images/1....images.stories.news.2011.augustus.aug02.perdi .P8020145.JPG
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 07:23 PM
Thank you HS.
The location where they allegedly went swiiming is that all the way to the left? TIA
The other notable thing is that in the surveillance videos, the earliest noted time is 4:15, and GG is in the front of the restaurant, as if he had just parked his vehicle in the front parking lot. If he had gone by foot, the shortest distance is to the back of the restaurant. Later, he goes to the back of the restaurant which can be seen in the video.
MOO.
LambChop
09-14-2011, 07:47 PM
Thanks for the info. Great to have a local weigh in. Would you say it is reasonable that Gary would have risked being seen to carry Robyn to a cliff and throw her in the water? Are there areas where he could have felt the coast is clear (no pun intended) to do so? TIA.
The cliffs are beautiful in a rustic sort of way. The ocean spray comes up over them and some cliffs are quite high. There are never a lot of people on the back part of the island, no homes in most areas, just fishing shacks, very, very secluded. At that time in the evening I would say you would not expect to see anyone back there. And you can see both ways for a long way if someone is driving. You won't see people walking back there, they come by car. Lots of rocks, too. Almost like lava but I believe it is coral so anyone could put someone in a bag, weigh it down and push it off a cliff. Not sure how long it would stay out there though. At times it looks like alot comes back in and lands on little beach areas between the breaks in the cliffs.
What alerted me was the time of the day they decided to go snorkeling. That is way too late, plus the area. It's close to the tip of the island and I would imagine the currents running into each other would cause some wicked riptides. I know years ago we were told don't go in the water there the currents are too strong.
My question would be is this the first time GG has been to Aruba or has he visited the island before? Unless RG's family pushes for information I don't think we will get much information. LE keeps things close to the vest. But, if you ask a local you'd probably get the whole story. They seem to know the details about what is going on. Goes over the island like wildfire. My guess is Aruba will do their investigation and if they decide it's too much trouble to charge him they will let him go but not before the US Federal Court has all their information. They could decide to give him up to US authorities and just get rid of him. jmo
Aruba does not need any bad press. They are still recovering from Natalie. Many, many Arubans were upset over what happened to Natalie and even to this day.
Dushi
09-14-2011, 07:56 PM
The cliffs are beautiful in a rustic sort of way. The ocean spray comes up over them and some cliffs are quite high. There are never a lot of people on the back part of the island, no homes in most areas, just fishing shacks, very, very secluded. At that time in the evening I would say you would not expect to see anyone back there. And you can see both ways for a long way if someone is driving. You won't see people walking back there, they come by car. Lots of rocks, too. Almost like lava but I believe it is coral so anyone could put someone in a bag, weigh it down and push it off a cliff. Not sure how long it would stay out there though. At times it looks like alot comes back in and lands on little beach areas between the breaks in the cliffs.
What alerted me was the time of the day they decided to go snorkeling. That is way too late, plus the area. It's close to the tip of the island and I would imagine the currents running into each other would cause some wicked riptides. I know years ago we were told don't go in the water there the currents are too strong.
My question would be is this the first time GG has been to Aruba or has he visited the island before? Unless RG's family pushes for information I don't think we will get much information. LE keeps things close to the vest. But, if you ask a local you'd probably get the whole story. They seem to know the details about what is going on. Goes over the island like wildfire. My guess is Aruba will do their investigation and if they decide it's too much trouble to charge him they will let him go but not before the US Federal Court has all their information. They could decide to give him up to US authorities and just get rid of him. jmo
Aruba does not need any bad press. They are still recovering from Natalie. Many, many Arubans were upset over what happened to Natalie and even to this day.
I so agree with you
It has been sad to watch how upset the Arubans have been and I am sure they are upset about the disappearance of Robyn Gardner also.
However, i am not a local, just a frequent visitor. I have always been the one to bring NH up with my Aruban friends. After I have opened the discussion, they have been forthcoming with their views.
It is also my opinion that many local people do not have access to the media that we have in Canada and the US.
I am not sure they know the story
If LE plays it close to the vest, I am not sure what source they have
Heaven knows, our information is often not accurate
Micheline
09-14-2011, 08:02 PM
I believe the dogs have to be brought in from the States or Holland. States are closer. The area they were in is very, very rocky, rough, jagged rocks. Going into the water past the baby beach (a protected cove) portion is dangerous and you better be a good swimmer. That area and the back side of the island has extremely strong currents and swimming is often prohibited because of the undertoe. That is why he had on the sneakers if he was in the water. Tough to walk in that area. Plus that time of day....fish are feeding. There are sharks in that area and the backside. There are cliffs close to Baby Beach and in the time he was suppose to be snorkeling he could have had her near the cliffs. Plus who goes in the water with just a couple of drinks much less snorkeling.
-Respectfully snipped and bolded by me.
Thank you for this explanation, it also fits was GG himself said, namely that he did went snorkeling with his shoes on:
He said something went wrong while swimming in the rough water, telling police he tried to take of his sneakers when attempting to get to shore because they were heavy.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/aruba-murder-suspect-gary-giordano-calmly-told-authorities/story?id=14403446
There has been numerous remarks about GG putting on his shoes prior to seek help as if he did not care, but per his declaration to the police he has stated that he was wearing his sneakers while snorkeling, which would be appropriate thing to do looking at the location with jagged rocks and coral.
LambChop
09-14-2011, 08:16 PM
The cliffs are beautiful in a rustic sort of way. The ocean spray comes up over them and some cliffs are quite high. There are never a lot of people on the back part of the island, no homes in most areas, just fishing shacks, very, very secluded. At that time in the evening I would say you would not expect to see anyone back there. And you can see both ways for a long way if someone is driving. You won't see people walking back there, they come by car. Lots of rocks, too. Almost like lava but I believe it is coral so anyone could put someone in a bag, weigh it down and push it off a cliff. Not sure how long it would stay out there though. At times it looks like alot comes back in and lands on little beach areas between the breaks in the cliffs.
What alerted me was the time of the day they decided to go snorkeling. That is way too late, plus the area. It's close to the tip of the island and I would imagine the currents running into each other would cause some wicked riptides. I know years ago we were told don't go in the water there the currents are too strong.
My question would be is this the first time GG has been to Aruba or has he visited the island before? Unless RG's family pushes for information I don't think we will get much information. LE keeps things close to the vest. But, if you ask a local you'd probably get the whole story. They seem to know the details about what is going on. Goes over the island like wildfire. My guess is Aruba will do their investigation and if they decide it's too much trouble to charge him they will let him go but not before the US Federal Court has all their information. They could decide to give him up to US authorities and just get rid of him. jmo
Aruba does not need any bad press. They are still recovering from Natalie. Many, many Arubans were upset over what happened to Natalie and even to this day.
I so agree with you
It has been sad to watch how upset the Arubans have been and I am sure they are upset about the disappearance of Robyn Gardner also.
However, i am not a local, just a frequent visitor. I have always been the one to bring NH up with my Aruban friends. After I have opened the discussion, they have been forthcoming with their views.
I see you use Dushi. I love the Mi Dushi and have been out on it many times. I've been going every year to Aruba since 1985. It is like my home away from home.
If GG did get rid of her body I don't see him putting her there at Baby Beach. I see him driving up the Eastern part of the island (short trip) where the cliffs are and either pushing her off or dumping her body there. You know how rough that sea is and by the time they would find her he figured they would think her body traveled there with the currents. I don't think the current go that way but he may not know that. Plus it is pretty well know down there that this was at one time the shark feeding grounds. Years ago the islanders would throw the scraps and unusable meat out there. I don't think they do that anymore.
If she was drinking I think he could have pushed her. It certainly would be easy and she would be no match for him. jmo
Micheline
09-14-2011, 08:21 PM
No, I think that's a different state of mind. He's moving too slowly, too methodically, too systematically. A person who just lost someone at sea would be madly trying to get help, yelling, running, banging, screaming and begging for help. I think his movements show an amateurish calculation. As in, "OK, I neexd to move around, make noise, act like I'm looking for help," but compromised by a state of mind that is distracted, self-absorbed, lost, afraid for himself.
Mind you, I recognize this is pure guesswork. These are just my observations. They are based on 20 years of practicing law and trying to measure the veracity of witnesses and so forth, but that doesn't make them any less guesswork.
I think they'll nail this ******* before it's over, despite the fact that they (ALE) are totally incompetent, understaffed, underfunded, undertrained and lacking in resources. He's just that stupid.
Edit: Ha. It appears that calling a GG by his true colors is prohibited here. I meant to say he is an azz-hole. :)
Just a Guy, I respect your opinion, personally I cannot come to this conclusion by the footage released yesterday.
We do not know if prior to GG arriving at (and walking around) the RumReef if maybe he had went back into the sea to look for Robyn, ran from left to right upto the yetti then all the way back on the right etc, and then finally completely exhausted walked/ran to the Rum Reef to have someone call 911.
His demeanor seems flat, you can interpretate that as someone who does his dance on automatic pilot or establishing an alibi or who does not care, but you can also interpretate that also as someone who looks completely exhausted and beaten.
The card provided by HS shows the distance from the beach to RR is significant, who knows maybe he went by foot and ran all the way, we do not know.
This is what GG declared to the police when they said he did not seem in a hurry on the RR footage: "I was completely exhausted".
Dushi
09-14-2011, 08:24 PM
[quote=Dushi;7124995]
I see you use Dushi. I love the Mi Dushi and have been out on it many times. I've been going every year to Aruba since 1985. It is like my home away from home.
If GG did get rid of her body I don't see him putting her there at Baby Beach. I see him driving up the Eastern part of the island (short trip) where the cliffs are and either pushing her off or dumping her body there. You know how rough that sea is and by the time they would find her he figured they would think her body traveled there with the currents. I don't think the current go that way but he may not know that. Plus it is pretty well know down there that this was at one time the shark feeding grounds. Years ago the islanders would throw the scraps and unusable meat out there. I don't think they do that anymore.
If she was drinking I think he could have pushed her. It certainly would be easy and she would be no match for him. jmo
LOL, my home away from home also
I have actually spent far more time there over the last eighteen years than "home"
The "rough" side of the Island is indeed that
I really have no idea what would happen to a body if it was thrown off at that end
Many drug runners do wash ashore up there after an unsuccessful attempt at bringing drugs onto the island from boats
Yes, years ago food was thrown out there but not for many years
Of course, there are sharks...
Just-a-Guy
09-14-2011, 08:27 PM
Just a Guy, I respect your opinion, personally I cannot come to this conclusion by the footage released yesterday.
We do not know if prior to GG arriving at (and walking around) the RumReef if maybe he had went back into the sea to look for Robyn, ran from left to right upto the yetti then all the way back on the right etc, and then finally completely exhausted walked/ran to the Rum Reef to have someone call 911.
His demeanor seems flat, you can interpretate that as someone who does his dance on automatic pilot or establishing an alibi or who does not care, but you can also interpretate that also as someone who looks completely exhausted and beaten.
The card provided by HS shows the distance from the beach to RR is significant, who knows maybe he went by foot and ran all the way, we do not know.
This is what GG declared to the police when they said he did not seem in a hurry on the RR footage: "I was completely exhausted".
I suppose. You could be right. We really just don't know, do we? It's the kind of thing that would be up to a court to decide. Kind of hard to convict a man based on this alone...but with all the other evidence, it may be a contributing bit of information and could be interpreted either way, I guess.
I'm holding out for a body. Breaks do happen. It looks like they've found Susan Powell. I think they may yet find Robin.
Until they do, or something else major develops...we're all just guessing.
LambChop
09-14-2011, 08:35 PM
-Respectfully snipped and bolded by me.
Thank you for this explanation, it also fits was GG himself said, namely that he did went snorkeling with his shoes on:
He said something went wrong while swimming in the rough water, telling police he tried to take of his sneakers when attempting to get to shore because they were heavy.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/aruba-murder-suspect-gary-giordano-calmly-told-authorities/story?id=14403446
There has been numerous remarks about GG putting on his shoes prior to seek help as if he did not care, but per his declaration to the police he has stated that he was wearing his sneakers while snorkeling, which would be appropriate thing to do looking at the location with jagged rocks and coral.
Not sure you would want to ruin a good pair of sneakers when you can buy beach shoes for about $10. Heavy sneakers can weigh you down when you are trying to swim.
Plus there is a lovely area for people to snorkel right near the Marriett. I mean it is right there. All the locals go there. Where they went at Baby Beach is dangerous on the other side of the breakers which is where it appears they went in. I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would go in with a pair of sneakers on.
Question if anyone knows, if RG cut her toe and they went back into the water and she disappeared how did the blood get next to the car???? jmo
Micheline
09-14-2011, 08:55 PM
March 30 form by mystery person:
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1680/330st.jpg
July 3 form by mystery person:
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3637/73date.jpg
July 27 RG Beneficiary form:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1215/727date.jpg
I would say they look different - the 7-27 form has a greater slant on the 7, the 11 tilts to the right, and all numbers are raised from the line to place the date on, unlike the other 2. So someone other than the mystery woman (who filled out the forms on March 30 and July 3) filled out the July 27 form. MOO.
Need to see Robyn's handwriting samples to know if it was her.
HS, do any of the forms shown on ABC also show the part where Giordano's name as alleged is filled in as the benificiary? TIA
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 08:56 PM
The cliffs are beautiful in a rustic sort of way. The ocean spray comes up over them and some cliffs are quite high. There are never a lot of people on the back part of the island, no homes in most areas, just fishing shacks, very, very secluded. At that time in the evening I would say you would not expect to see anyone back there. And you can see both ways for a long way if someone is driving. You won't see people walking back there, they come by car. Lots of rocks, too. Almost like lava but I believe it is coral so anyone could put someone in a bag, weigh it down and push it off a cliff. Not sure how long it would stay out there though. At times it looks like alot comes back in and lands on little beach areas between the breaks in the cliffs.
What alerted me was the time of the day they decided to go snorkeling. That is way too late, plus the area. It's close to the tip of the island and I would imagine the currents running into each other would cause some wicked riptides. I know years ago we were told don't go in the water there the currents are too strong.
My question would be is this the first time GG has been to Aruba or has he visited the island before? Unless RG's family pushes for information I don't think we will get much information. LE keeps things close to the vest. But, if you ask a local you'd probably get the whole story. They seem to know the details about what is going on. Goes over the island like wildfire. My guess is Aruba will do their investigation and if they decide it's too much trouble to charge him they will let him go but not before the US Federal Court has all their information. They could decide to give him up to US authorities and just get rid of him. jmo
Aruba does not need any bad press. They are still recovering from Natalie. Many, many Arubans were upset over what happened to Natalie and even to this day.
Thanks. Your info about the currents and the dangers of that place he was at is also what the fisherman Sergio Silva said in his interview. It appears this is local common knowledge, perhaps something GG could have come to understand by having a couple of conversations on the island, or even before arriving. Per an earlier unconfirmed report, this is his first trip to Aruba. If GG was plotting the "accidental death" he chose a spot which he thought would fit the story, and visited it the day before to confirm how he could portray events. With your additional info about the relative ease one could throw a body off a cliff in some areas without being seen, it certainly is possible he had that knowledge as well and disposed of the body that way. Then there is the fact no body has washed up, and per you and others they usually do.
Perhaps, if ABC's source is correct (a big if), we will get to know a lot of info about this case when the Federal Grand Jury is held in a couple of weeks. I am curious if he can be indicted on a 1st Degree Murder charge, if the premeditation occurred in Maryland and was then sent to AMEX in another state, then the death occurring in Aruba. I am also wondering how it ties in with the Aruba proceedings, and what sequence events would occur in, etc.
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 09:03 PM
HS, do any of the forms shown on ABC also show the part where Giordano's name as alleged is filled in as the benificiary? TIA
Yes. Here is July 27:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7430/727printedhandgg.jpg
Here is May 10:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6066/bform511.jpg
This is GG's own form where he lists his mother as beneficiary:
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8960/ggbeneficiaryformgg.jpg
krimekat
09-14-2011, 09:47 PM
Gary Giordano Hiring Casey Anthony's Lawyer 'Is A Joke,' Says Missing Woman's Boyfriend
Rather than being angry though about the hiring of the high profile attorney, Forester, who had been dating 35-year-old Gardner for two years before her disappearance on August 2, considers it to be ridiculous.
"As far as my opinion of him [Baez], I don’t care. It’s a joke," he told RadarOnline.com. "The only reason he won the Anthony case is because the baby was too far deteriorated by the time they found the body - my dog could have won that case!
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/gary-giordano-casey-anthony-lawyer-jose-baez-joke-says-robyn-gardner-boyfriend
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 10:04 PM
Incidentally, the original story coming out about the Beneficiary Form was that it was witnessed. Perhaps that is what GG indeed said, and the "witness" is the person who filled out the form.
Cuoco7
09-14-2011, 10:20 PM
Yes. Here is July 27:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7430/727printedhandgg.jpg
Here is May 10:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6066/bform511.jpg
This is GG's own form where he lists his mother as beneficiary:
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8960/ggbeneficiaryformgg.jpg
So the "G's" are the same for written name Gary and initials of Robyn?
I'm sorry if that's the topic, I've missed a lot and probably need to catch up.
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 10:30 PM
So the "G's" are the same for written name Gary and initials of Robyn?
I'm sorry if that's the topic, I've missed a lot and probably need to catch up.
Points being discussed are the initials of RG on the July 27 form and how the "R" in the initial is similar to how the R looks on the RG signature on the May 10 form. Also, the way the printed handwriting looks on the forms, how they appear to be two different people. The handwriting on the May 10 form appears to be GG, based on the printed handwriting on his own form where he designates his beneficiary as his mother. Since the two Robyn Gardner signatures appear to be different to me, I have been speculating that both signatures are forged. The question I have raised is who's printed handwriting could that be then on the second form. I am hypothesizing that there may be an accomplice to this fraud. It was reported earlier that the Beneficiary Form had been witnessed, yet there is no witness signature on the form. Therefore, it is possible, if that report is correct, that GG said it verbally to investigators, knowing he had an accomplice ready to back him up on this.
My working hypothesis at the moment is that the lover appearing on the news media shows saying she has taken trips with GG and signed him as beneficiary as well, would do it again, he's a great guy, etc. is possibly the accomplice, if indeed there is one.
MOO.
Micheline
09-14-2011, 10:39 PM
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/922/rg727.jpg
July 27 form. Note the way the R is started in the initials.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1205/signaturerg.jpg
May 10 form. Note the way the R is started in the signature.
That looks very similar.
If that is the same person who signed the May 10 form that initialed the July 27 form, then why did the July 27 signature come out with this kind of R - the signer starts their R at the bottom instead of to the left:
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5585/rgsig727.jpg
That is odd, the "R"'s all start like a "7" then up again and continue the "R" up to the right and then down to the right, but in the last one it goes up to the right and down to the left, the opposite way if the pen is not lifted.
If Robyn would at times lift the pen when making the "R" then I suppose it could happen to become like this, because if you lift the pen after the "7" you would make the same movement (finishing the "R" to the right, but starting it a quarter inch left from the botttom of the "7" while when not lifting the pen the same movement would be made from the bottom of the "7".
I mean to say if there was a connecting line between the "7" and the finshing of the "R" in the last signature, the movement would be correct.
I would think if someone wanted to forge a signature that "R" made by Robyn is so very easy to reproduce there would be no need to make such a different one in case of a alleged 1,5 million scam and murder. IMO
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 11:10 PM
Here is a blow-up of that last signature. Your feedback M is appreciated - that was an interesting commentary on it.
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4808/rg727bigsig.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/rg727bigsig.jpg/)
neesaki
09-14-2011, 11:37 PM
That thought has crossed my mind as well
With her tattoos and face all over the news, where would she go?
Plus, if this is the case, it's been a while now, what is she living off of, Giordano's money? lol If this were the case, imo, he's much too self-centered and greedy, he would make sure that he were the one who was "missing" not Robyn.
HatesSociopaths
09-14-2011, 11:51 PM
That is odd, the "R"'s all start like a "7" then up again and continue the "R" up to the right and then down to the right, but in the last one it goes up to the right and down to the left, the opposite way if the pen is not lifted.
If Robyn would at times lift the pen when making the "R" then I suppose it could happen to become like this, because if you lift the pen after the "7" you would make the same movement (finishing the "R" to the right, but starting it a quarter inch left from the botttom of the "7" while when not lifting the pen the same movement would be made from the bottom of the "7".
I mean to say if there was a connecting line between the "7" and the finshing of the "R" in the last signature, the movement would be correct.
I would think if someone wanted to forge a signature that "R" made by Robyn is so very easy to reproduce there would be no need to make such a different one in case of a alleged 1,5 million scam and murder. IMO
The red lines and numbers represent the sequence in time I see these strokes occurring in.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6649/redrgsigr.jpg
That type of R doesn't match with the type of R being written in the first signature - "7" is a good description for how the pen stroke starts:
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/1205/signaturerg.jpg
What's interesting though is that "7" is visible in the initials of the July 27 form:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/922/rg727.jpg
MOO.
Maybe her hand bumped a little to the left (or she was drunk?) and so what is normally a sharp 7 on strokes 1 and 2 noted in red, turned into that instead. She then had to correct it with stroke 3. That's quite a curve ball for non-expert eyes like mine if that is the case! :D
A sample of her own handwriting would help a lot.
neesaki
09-14-2011, 11:54 PM
The following is all opinion, just looking at how these pieces might fit together, other than the simple explanation that RG signed these forms herself.
Working hypothesis: There is an accomplice to the filling out of these forms. A copy of Robyn's signature was not obtained until the trip to Aruba, thus the variance in signatures. The accomplice was gotten so as to be used as proof that he took out accidental death insurance on other women, and as a witness to his good character. The accomplice was involved in the crime immediately so as to ensure full participation, thus was gotten to sign/fill-out the forms.
Motive for the accompice: In love with GG and wanting to be rid of competition, and share in the pay-out. I would also opine that she was manipulated and pressured into doing so.
This hypothesis falls apart if that is Robyn's handwriting and signature on the forms. But again, those two signatures are markedly different in my non-expert opinion. I hope we get further information on this point soon from an expert on handwriting.
I am no expert, but the signatures look significantly different to me as well, jmo.
neesaki
09-14-2011, 11:58 PM
Gary Giordano Hiring Casey Anthony's Lawyer 'Is A Joke,' Says Missing Woman's Boyfriend
Rather than being angry though about the hiring of the high profile attorney, Forester, who had been dating 35-year-old Gardner for two years before her disappearance on August 2, considers it to be ridiculous.
"As far as my opinion of him [Baez], I don’t care. It’s a joke," he told RadarOnline.com. "The only reason he won the Anthony case is because the baby was too far deteriorated by the time they found the body - my dog could have won that case!
I Love It ! :D
neesaki
09-15-2011, 12:05 AM
That is odd, the "R"'s all start like a "7" then up again and continue the "R" up to the right and then down to the right, but in the last one it goes up to the right and down to the left, the opposite way if the pen is not lifted.
If Robyn would at times lift the pen when making the "R" then I suppose it could happen to become like this, because if you lift the pen after the "7" you would make the same movement (finishing the "R" to the right, but starting it a quarter inch left from the botttom of the "7" while when not lifting the pen the same movement would be made from the bottom of the "7".
I mean to say if there was a connecting line between the "7" and the finshing of the "R" in the last signature, the movement would be correct.
I would think if someone wanted to forge a signature that "R" made by Robyn is so very easy to reproduce there would be no need to make such a different one in case of a alleged 1,5 million scam and murder. IMO
I don't see how these signatures could be authentic (maybe one is, but which one). They look nothing alike. I'm not qualified, but they don't even look like good forgeries, imo.
HatesSociopaths
09-15-2011, 12:39 AM
Hadn't seen this before:
BLOOM: Yes. Christina Jones, you have known Robyn for four years. You have been her roommate. This must be such an extraordinarily difficult time for you. I so appreciate your being here and giving her a voice. Aruban police found photos of Robyn naked in Gary`s camera and, in fact, these photos are being described as "beyond pornographic." So, what I want to know is, is this the kind of thing Robyn was into as far as you know?
CHRISTINA JONES, FRIEND OF ROBYN GARDNER: As far as I know, you know, she wasn`t into that. I -- you know, only, like, only Gary and Robyn know but she never shared anything like that and it seems to feel off to me but you`re learning that women have been drugged by him, he`s roofied girls, so, who`s to say that she wasn`t high or on some, you know, pills and alcohol when those photos were taken. Like, we don`t know.
BLOOM: Yes, we don`t have any confirmation of that at this point but I understand your concerns as her friend and as her roommate. You`re still living in the apartment that you have shared with her. What`s that like for you, walking by her room many times a day?
Not sure where that report came from? If true, perhaps that is indeed what GG was doing at 4 p.m. when seen returning alone to the rental vehicle with a cup in his hand, then going back into the restaurant. He then could have waited for the drug to knock her out by the beach, then put her in the water as far out as he could to get it into the outward currents, etc.
MOO.
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1108/19/ddhln.01.html
neesaki
09-15-2011, 01:03 AM
Hadn't seen this before:
Not sure where that report came from? If true, perhaps that is indeed what GG was doing at 4 p.m. when seen returning alone to the rental vehicle with a cup in his hand, then going back into the restaurant. He then could have waited for the drug to knock her out by the beach, then put her in the water as far out as he could to get it into the outward currents, etc.
MOO.
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1108/19/ddhln.01.html
I remember watching this interview w/ CJ on CNN HLN a while back. I was thinking about all of this today after my post about him grabbing her leg and pulling her under, about how easy it would have been for him to drug her, on top of the alcohol she had been drinking, and just pull her out to sea. He was a scuba diver wasn't he? Could have weighted her down too. :(
Tugela
09-15-2011, 05:17 AM
Please don't speak for me, I can assure you, even when panicking, I'd take 1/10th of a second to glance over my shoulder to see if you were dead, alive, or ahead of me so that maybe you could go for help for me.
Do you have link that shows how 99% of how people react in a riptide when in the ocean with a partner?
Second, can anyone show me a link where GG stated to LE that they were caught in a riptide, swimming in a panic, swimming for their lives? :waitasec: Articles I've seen indicate GG stated that the water started to get rough, he tapped on her leg, signaled they should head in, swam to shore... oops! She's gone.
Never once have I read that he stated he/they were swimming for their lives trying to break out of a riptide.
Last, I'm never going to buy "99% react this way in blah blah blah situation...." I've just watched a video making the media rounds of at least a dozen people run TOWARD a completely engulfed in flames motorcycle and partially engulfed car. Is it smart to run TOWARD flames approaching a car's gas tank? Is it logical for them to believe they could lift the car? Run away from the flames, call for help, everyone says so. No, they ran towards, to lift the car off a STRANGER. Every single one of those people were not in the '99% people'. People all react differently in panic, and emergencies, and some actually become numb, then calm and focused, some do panic and become self focused, some ignore all the rules they know and will break rules to look out for a stranger.
If your life is in immediate danger and you panick, you run and don't look back or stop to help anyone. If you do any of that, you are fearfull, but not panicking, there is a difference.
There have been plenty of instances where masses of people have stampeded in a panick and trampled others to death. If you have ever seen any footage of those sorts of events, or situations when gunmen start firing on crowds for example, the vast majority of people run for their lives and dont look back. Allmost all people who go to mass events like that go with family or friends, so there are people to look around for. It generally doesn't happen though, not until the panick subsides anyway.
IIRC the reports were that he tapped her leg because conditions were worsening, and then swam for his life until hitting a rock. It was only then that he looked back and didn't see her. Sounds like panick to me, and that is exactly what you would expect someone to do in that sort of situation. The only exceptions generally would be when the persons involved have deep emotional ties and might be willing to risk death to do something.
Oh, and the people who lifted the car to help that guy were not in immediate mortal danger themselves, nor were they panicked, so it is not a comparable situation.
LambChop
09-15-2011, 08:44 AM
Thanks. Your info about the currents and the dangers of that place he was at is also what the fisherman Sergio Silva said in his interview. It appears this is local common knowledge, perhaps something GG could have come to understand by having a couple of conversations on the island, or even before arriving. Per an earlier unconfirmed report, this is his first trip to Aruba. If GG was plotting the "accidental death" he chose a spot which he thought would fit the story, and visited it the day before to confirm how he could portray events. With your additional info about the relative ease one could throw a body off a cliff in some areas without being seen, it certainly is possible he had that knowledge as well and disposed of the body that way. Then there is the fact no body has washed up, and per you and others they usually do.
Perhaps, if ABC's source is correct (a big if), we will get to know a lot of info about this case when the Federal Grand Jury is held in a couple of weeks. I am curious if he can be indicted on a 1st Degree Murder charge, if the premeditation occurred in Maryland and was then sent to AMEX in another state, then the death occurring in Aruba. I am also wondering how it ties in with the Aruba proceedings, and what sequence events would occur in, etc.
She is an American who allegedly was killed by an American and motive being, IMO, the insurance policy. If Aruba decides to send him back it becomes a Federal issue. Not sure how JB figures he is qualified to even assist in this matter. GG past record will not help him. Also seeing him on the video bringing her more to drink from the car will not help his case either.
Anyone else think it is odd that a man who probably spent a lot of money on a toupe would risk losing it in the water while snorkeling? jmo
HatesSociopaths
09-15-2011, 09:43 AM
She is an American who allegedly was killed by an American and motive being, IMO, the insurance policy. If Aruba decides to send him back it becomes a Federal issue. Not sure how JB figures he is qualified to even assist in this matter. GG past record will not help him. Also seeing him on the video bringing her more to drink from the car will not help his case either.
Anyone else think it is odd that a man who probably spent a lot of money on a toupe would risk losing it in the water while snorkeling? jmo
Yes it is odd, particularly if he does not have water resistant glue, which could be checked for by investigators. An earlier girlfriend said he would not have gone into the water with it. Also, salt water lessens the life of the piece.
concentric
09-15-2011, 10:24 AM
Gary Giordano Hiring Casey Anthony's Lawyer 'Is A Joke,' Says Missing Woman's Boyfriend
Rather than being angry though about the hiring of the high profile attorney, Forester, who had been dating 35-year-old Gardner for two years before her disappearance on August 2, considers it to be ridiculous.
"As far as my opinion of him [Baez], I don’t care. It’s a joke," he told RadarOnline.com. "The only reason he won the Anthony case is because the baby was too far deteriorated by the time they found the body - my dog could have won that case!
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/gary-giordano-casey-anthony-lawyer-jose-baez-joke-says-robyn-gardner-boyfriend
----------
RF may also realize this could be considered beneficial because it has brought even more attention to the fact that Robyn is missing.
OK, now that I've read the entire article, RF does say this:
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/gary-giordano-casey-anthony-lawyer-jose-baez-joke-says-robyn-gardner-boyfriend
He went on to say that he's happy that the 50-year-old businessman suspected of Robyn's murder chose such a scandal-causing legal sidekick. "He‘s going to bring more attention to the hunt for Robyn, which is good! Thank you for hiring him," he told RadarOnline.com. "They can hire Johnnie L. Cochran's dead body for all I care."
Peliman
09-15-2011, 10:32 AM
If your life is in immediate danger and you panick, you run and don't look back or stop to help anyone. If you do any of that, you are fearfull, but not panicking, there is a difference.
There have been plenty of instances where masses of people have stampeded in a panick and trampled others to death. If you have ever seen any footage of those sorts of events, or situations when gunmen start firing on crowds for example, the vast majority of people run for their lives and dont look back. Allmost all people who go to mass events like that go with family or friends, so there are people to look around for. It generally doesn't happen though, not until the panick subsides anyway.
IIRC the reports were that he tapped her leg because conditions were worsening, and then swam for his life until hitting a rock. It was only then that he looked back and didn't see her. Sounds like panick to me, and that is exactly what you would expect someone to do in that sort of situation. The only exceptions generally would be when the persons involved have deep emotional ties and might be willing to risk death to do something.
Oh, and the people who lifted the car to help that guy were not in immediate mortal danger themselves, nor were they panicked, so it is not a comparable situation.
Speaking of those worsening conditions, here's what they appeared like to police when they arrived. Really rough out there wasn't it.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18672&d=1316096933
18672
concentric
09-15-2011, 10:44 AM
Yup, that sure looks real bad out there, Peliman, real bad for someone.
Kamille
09-15-2011, 10:58 AM
So if GG was wearing sneakers on his feet because of the jagged rocks and coral, what was RG wearing on her feet? Does she own a pair of sneakers or beach shoes that are missing? Did she buy any while down there? Or did GG just let her slice up her feet on the way into his "special" snorkling hole?
MOO
concentric
09-15-2011, 11:17 AM
uh, where are those darn flippers anyway?
neesaki
09-15-2011, 11:30 AM
ETA: Having a girlfriend as an accomplice in a multi-million dollar fraud scam is not new with Giordano. This is from about a year and a half ago:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/23/suspect-in-aruba-claimed-money-woes/
So he committed forgery and fraud, wonder why he wasn't indicted for this crime:waitasec:
Magdalyn
09-15-2011, 11:46 AM
If your life is in immediate danger and you panick, you run and don't look back or stop to help anyone. If you do any of that, you are fearfull, but not panicking, there is a difference.
There have been plenty of instances where masses of people have stampeded in a panick and trampled others to death. If you have ever seen any footage of those sorts of events, or situations when gunmen start firing on crowds for example, the vast majority of people run for their lives and dont look back. Allmost all people who go to mass events like that go with family or friends, so there are people to look around for. It generally doesn't happen though, not until the panick subsides anyway.
IIRC the reports were that he tapped her leg because conditions were worsening, and then swam for his life until hitting a rock. It was only then that he looked back and didn't see her. Sounds like panick to me, and that is exactly what you would expect someone to do in that sort of situation. The only exceptions generally would be when the persons involved have deep emotional ties and might be willing to risk death to do something.
Oh, and the people who lifted the car to help that guy were not in immediate mortal danger themselves, nor were they panicked, so it is not a comparable situation.
This is the last I'll comment on this, cause I'm sure we could go round and round and never agree...
Please, please, please, provide all of us a link that shows that GG's statement to police says they were fighting a riptide and fighting their individual ways to shore. A police statement that he 'swam for his life'. I can't find a single one. And I'm not talking about one where you infer panic while they were swimming. I can find one where GG is trying to explain how he was trying to find help at the restaurant and stated he was panicked. Panicked about getting help. Not panicked while swimming. This CNN article states, "The prosecutor's office released a statement later Tuesday that provided some detail. The suspect told authorities that he had been snorkeling with Gardner behind Nanki Country Club when he signaled to her to swim back, the statement read. When the man reached the beach, the woman was nowhere to be found, he allegedly told them.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-10/world/aruba.missing.woman_1_aruba-rental-car-facebook-message?_s=PM:WORLD
Discussing what the 'vast majority' do or don't do in a panic is a moot point: we don't know if they were really snorkling, we don't know if there was a riptide and we don't have evidence of GG's 'panic' while swimming. Also, discussing how '99% of people react' won't solve Robyn's case. And, again, I'd really like to see a link for how swim/snorkle/surf partners react statistically when one or both is caught in a riptide in the presence of the other. I'm not sure, but I would imagine some partners actually drown themselves, doing the wrong thing and trying to save their partner, panic or no. But as I can find no statistics on this, my estimation on how 'the vast majority' of people would react in this situation is as good as yours. :loser:
And did you see/hear any of those people who lifted the car interviewed? I did. I heard one on his cellphone saying he was afraid the car might blow up. Afterwards, a few others said they were afraid the car was going to blow up, but it was 'another human being' and they just went in and did it. Another was a father explained why he felt compelled to help despite the danger by saying, "I have a son, that was someone's son under there."
Just because you didn't perceive any immediate mortal danger to that car blowing up doesn't mean THEY didn't. And I could point you to hundreds of people on Setember 11th, who took the time to stop and help others while they themselves were trying to evactuate the building, running for their own lives.
Wouldn't one qualify GG at a minimum as a 'friend who would look out for her' as you mentioned above? She's his travel companion, they shared a bed, they're doing all their vacation activities together. At least a friend, right?Certainly his snorkling partner? Not a stranger. And, from what I understand of riptides, if he was actually in one and got to shore successfully, he knew enough to swim parallel to the shore to break out of it. (If he knew what to do, he likely wouldn't be as panicked as a riptide clueless person, if panicked at all.) You'd think once he'd broken free of this alleged riptide, he'd still have a ways to go to reach shore. Immediate emergency averted, he wouldn't think, "Cr@P! That was scary! Now where's Robyn?" not one single time after he broke from the rip? No? He'd just keep swimming, still out of his mind panicked and not once thinking, "I wonder if Robyn made it out"... until he got to shore?
Have a good day, all. Debating hypothetical situations and predicting panic behavior has done me in! :fence:
LambChop
09-15-2011, 11:58 AM
Speaking of those worsening conditions, here's what they appeared like to police when they arrived. Really rough out there wasn't it.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18672&d=1316096933
18672
If you goggle a map of Aruba you can see Baby Beach at the very tip of the Southwestern portion of the island. While you can see what appears to be calm on the surface the currents run very strong underneath and within a short distance the shelf drops off considerably into deeper ocean. So you have currents running one way on one side of the island and currents running another on the Western side of the island and those currents from the deeper portion of the sea all coming together under the water. It won't always be choppy on the surface only if there is a storm out at sea.
This is one of the main reasons people drown while on vacation there. It does not always look dangerous. If they put helicopters up and they have plenty right there a couple of miles up the road if she went under there and he reported it right away they would have found her. I really don't think she died there.
Did they leave the car there at the restaurant and walk to snorkel or was the car moved???? Anyone know??
FYI: You can't snorkel in sneakers. If you are swimming where there are currents you need flippers. It's why fish don't drown. I think the sneakers were wet because he had to get into the water to show they were snorkeling and could not do so without hurting his feet. jmo
neesaki
09-15-2011, 12:01 PM
Not sure you would want to ruin a good pair of sneakers when you can buy beach shoes for about $10. Heavy sneakers can weigh you down when you are trying to swim.
Plus there is a lovely area for people to snorkel right near the Marriett. I mean it is right there. All the locals go there. Where they went at Baby Beach is dangerous on the other side of the breakers which is where it appears they went in. I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would go in with a pair of sneakers on.
Question if anyone knows, if RG cut her toe and they went back into the water and she disappeared how did the blood get next to the car???? jmo
This makes good sense to me, I just can't see any good reason why someone would go in the ocean w/ big leather sneakers, it just doesn't add up. They are much too heavy, especially when wet. I mean, they were supposedly on vacation and GG supposedly went prepared to snorkel so why wouldn't beach shoes be part of his snorkeling gear that he reportedly carried w/ him. Plus, if you're snorkeling you would use flippers anyway.
Also have wondered why they would want to leave that beautiful resort w/ private beach to go to that public area, not once but twice. I think it was HatesSociopaths that mentioned maybe GG had Robyn believing he was lookin for a place to do a photo shoot, which sounds like a possibility, otherwise what was his explaination to her that they revisited that area two days in a row? Could also explain why Robyn was all made up w/ her hair done as has been reported by witnesses. A woman doesn't just go get in the ocean and go snorkeling, after going through all the makeup and hair routine, believe me, it's way too much time and work.
I wonder about the blood by the car. If it's confirmed and proven to be Robyn's, did GG drug her, then cut her so she would bleed in order to draw the sharks when he threw her off into the sea?
Also, was the car parked at Baby Beach where the blood was found, or was it behind the restaurant in the rocky area?
Dushi
09-15-2011, 12:01 PM
well I have read nothing about a riptide
A fear for his life is what I read...
According to Giordano, he and Robyn were snorkeling on Aug. 2 when Robyn didn't return to the Baby Beach shore. Giordano detailed a "fear for his life" that prompted him to keep swimming for shore and not look back for Gardner after signaling for her to follow him, per KTVU News.
http://www.examiner.com/criminal-profiles-in-national/aruba-robyn-gardner-search-gary-giordano-investigation-growing-legs
We only have his word on this
Witnesses say they never went into the water
Magdalyn
09-15-2011, 12:02 PM
Yup, that sure looks real bad out there, Peliman, real bad for someone.
It's giving me a panic attack just looking at it. :panic:
kljohnson0458
09-15-2011, 12:05 PM
This is the last I'll comment on this, cause I'm sure we could go round and round and never agree...
Please, please, please, provide all of us a link that shows that GG's statement to police says they were fighting a riptide and fighting their individual ways to shore. A police statement that he 'swam for his life'. I can't find a single one. And I'm not talking about one where you infer panic while they were swimming. I can find one where GG is trying to explain how he was trying to find help at the restaurant and stated he was panicked. Panicked about getting help. Not panicked while swimming. This CNN article states, "The prosecutor's office released a statement later Tuesday that provided some detail. The suspect told authorities that he had been snorkeling with Gardner behind Nanki Country Club when he signaled to her to swim back, the statement read. When the man reached the beach, the woman was nowhere to be found, he allegedly told them.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-10/world/aruba.missing.woman_1_aruba-rental-car-facebook-message?_s=PM:WORLD
Discussing what the 'vast majority' do or don't do in a panic is a moot point: we don't know if they were really snorkling, we don't know if there was a riptide and we don't have evidence of GG's 'panic' while swimming. Also, discussing how '99% of people react' won't solve Robyn's case. And, again, I'd really like to see a link for how swim/snorkle/surf partners react statistically when one or both is caught in a riptide in the presence of the other. I'm not sure, but I would imagine some partners actually drown themselves, doing the wrong thing and trying to save their partner, panic or no. But as I can find no statistics on this, my estimation on how 'the vast majority' of people would react in this situation is as good as yours. :loser:
And did you see/hear any of those people who lifted the car interviewed? I did. I heard one on his cellphone saying he was afraid the car might blow up. Afterwards, a few others said they were afraid the car was going to blow up, but it was 'another human being' and they just went in and did it. Another was a father explained why he felt compelled to help despite the danger by saying, "I have a son, that was someone's son under there."
Just because you didn't perceive any immediate mortal danger to that car blowing up doesn't mean THEY didn't. And I could point you to hundreds of people on Setember 11th, who took the time to stop and help others while they themselves were trying to evactuate the building, running for their own lives.
Wouldn't one qualify GG at a minimum as a 'friend who would look out for her' as you mentioned above? She's his travel companion, they shared a bed, they're doing all their vacation activities together. At least a friend, right?Certainly his snorkling partner? Not a stranger. And, from what I understand of riptides, if he was actually in one and got to shore successfully, he knew enough to swim parallel to the shore to break out of it. (If he knew what to do, he likely wouldn't be as panicked as a riptide clueless person, if panicked at all.) You'd think once he'd broken free of this alleged riptide, he'd still have a ways to go to reach shore. Immediate emergency averted, he wouldn't think, "Cr@P! That was scary! Now where's Robyn?" not one single time after he broke from the rip? No? He'd just keep swimming, still out of his mind panicked and not once thinking, "I wonder if Robyn made it out"... until he got to shore?
Have a good day, all. Debating hypothetical situations and predicting panic behavior has done me in! :fence:
:clap: Couldn't have said it better myself. I sure need a whole lot more than we've seen, heard and read (most of which was proven to be untrue) before I make a decision. Conjecture, surmising over and over makes it hard to read and find out if there is REAL news. Guess I'll keep an eye out on the news channels.
Magdalyn
09-15-2011, 12:05 PM
well I have read nothing about a riptide
A fear for his life is what I read...
According to Giordano, he and Robyn were snorkeling on Aug. 2 when Robyn didn't return to the Baby Beach shore. Giordano detailed a "fear for his life" that prompted him to keep swimming for shore and not look back for Gardner after signaling for her to follow him, per KTVU News.
http://www.examiner.com/criminal-profiles-in-national/aruba-robyn-gardner-search-gary-giordano-investigation-growing-legs
We only have his word on this
Witnesses say they never went into the water
Interesting! I'm not finding that quote from any of the major media sources.... Thanks for finding it! And I agree, we only have his word that ANY of this happened the way he says, that they even went snorkling! :crazy:
concentric
09-15-2011, 12:09 PM
Also have wondered why they would want to leave that beautiful resort w/ private beach to go to that public area, not once but twice. I think it was HatesSociopaths that mentioned maybe GG had Robyn believing he was lookin for a place to do a photo shoot, which sounds like a possibility, otherwise what was his explaination to her that they revisited that area two days in a row?
--------------
No, that was me who has been saying repeatedly from the beginning that he probably told her he was scouting areas for a photo shoot.
Dushi
09-15-2011, 12:09 PM
This makes good sense to me, I just can't see any good reason why someone would go in the ocean w/ big leather sneakers, it just doesn't add up. They are much too heavy, especially when wet. I mean, they were supposedly on vacation and GG supposedly went prepared to snorkel so why wouldn't beach shoes be part of his snorkeling gear that he reportedly carried w/ him. Plus, if you're snorkeling you would use flippers anyway.
Also have wondered why they would want to leave that beautiful resort w/ private beach to go to that public area, not once but twice. I think it was HatesSociopaths that mentioned maybe GG had Robyn believing he was lookin for a place to do a photo shoot, which sounds like a possibility, otherwise what was his explaination to her that they revisited that area two days in a row? Could also explain why Robyn was all made up w/ her hair done as has been reported by witnesses. A woman doesn't just go get in the ocean and go snorkeling, after going through all the makeup and hair routine, believe me, it's way too much time and work.
I wonder about the blood by the car. If it's confirmed and proven to be Robyn's, did GG drug her, then cut her so she would bleed in order to draw the sharks when he threw her off into the sea?
Also, was the car parked at Baby Beach where the blood was found, or was it behind the restaurant in the rocky area?
I really wouldn't read too much into the fact that they left the resort, people do it all of the time
Rather boring to visit a new place and not explore it.
As far as the second visit to the restaurant/beach, it seems a bit suspicious to me but as someone said, maybe they wanted to eat there and it was closed the first day
About the blood
It was reported early on that bloodly hand print had been found on a rock near the car.
Then it was reported there was no bloody hand print
I don't know if that meant no bloody hand print or no blood
Its not clear to me
After the blood was reported, GG then said she cut her toe :banghead:
neesaki
09-15-2011, 12:13 PM
--------------
No, that was me who has been saying repeatedly from the beginning that he probably told her he was scouting areas for a photo shoot.
Oops, sorry concentric, thanks for the correction:doh:
Peliman
09-15-2011, 12:18 PM
If you goggle a map of Aruba you can see Baby Beach at the very tip of the Southwestern portion of the island. While you can see what appears to be calm on the surface the currents run very strong underneath and within a short distance the shelf drops off considerably into deeper ocean. So you have currents running one way on one side of the island and currents running another on the Western side of the island and those currents from the deeper portion of the sea all coming together under the water. It won't always be choppy on the surface only if there is a storm out at sea.
This is one of the main reasons people drown while on vacation there. It does not always look dangerous. If they put helicopters up and they have plenty right there a couple of miles up the road if she went under there and he reported it right away they would have found her. I really don't think she died there.
Did they leave the car there at the restaurant and walk to snorkel or was the car moved???? Anyone know?? jmo
I tend to agree she didn't disappear in those waters, I think she would have been found also. Even if she sank to the bottom after drowning, she should have surfaced in about two days from decomp gases especially being in salt water.
Just curious because you seem to have some experience with those waters. Those that have drown, have their bodies been recovered? Are you PADI?
Also IMO the waters didn't look rough enough to cause riptide but of course I wasn't there.
Regarding driving vs. walking, it maybe both. I've read the following.
"The last person to see Robyn Gardner and Gary Giordano together was the owner of a dive shop on Aruba who noticed their car far out on a rocky point of the island which he thought was an unlikely place to be snorkeling."
He later saw Giordano's rental car at the tip of a rocky path leading out to the ocean, and said he thought at the time how unusual it was to see people snorkeling at that spot.
Stein has said that there were apparent gaps in time between when witnesses saw the pair on the beach and the timeline Giordano gave when he reported Gardner missing."
http://abcnews.go.com/International/aruba-dive-shop-owner-person-robyn-gardner/story?id=14315628
neesaki
09-15-2011, 12:18 PM
As far as the second visit to the restaurant/beach, it seems a bit suspicious to me but as someone said, maybe they wanted to eat there and it was closed the first day
Was a Monday the first day I think, so maybe closed on Mondays? Otherwise, I was thinking they were seen there about the same time both days, like in the 3:15 to 3:45 range and the restaurant was open then on Tuesday. Will see if I can find this somewhere.:)
Dushi
09-15-2011, 12:23 PM
Was a Monday the first day I think, so maybe closed on Mondays? Otherwise, I was thinking they were seen there about the same time both days, like in the 3:15 to 3:45 range and the restaurant was open then on Tuesday. Will see if I can find this somewhere.:)
Yes, it was reported in the latest video showing them on the beach the day before that the restaurant was closed
Around the same time
Peliman
09-15-2011, 12:27 PM
Just to clear something up I've heard. I heard the resturant GG went to for help was closed. I haven't been able to verify the resturants hours of operation though. Anyone know?
concentric
09-15-2011, 12:28 PM
[QUOTE=Peliman;7126552]I tend to agree she didn't disappear in those waters, I think she would have been found also. Even if she sank to the bottom after drowning, she should have surfaced in about two days from decomp gases especially being in salt water.QUOTE]
--------------
And, who the heck goes snorkeling without flippers??? At least one of those flippers she had worn would have floated up or around that area. And, there was no sign that he had flippers for her to begin with.
Sorry, not buying that they went snorkeling there. Been scuba diving too much to believe it.
Dushi
09-15-2011, 12:30 PM
Just to clear something up I've heard. I heard the resturant GG went to for help was closed. I haven't been able to verify the resturants hours of operation though. Anyone know?
Yes, Thats what i read.
When he went for help the restaurant was closed but they had a late lunch there that day
neesaki
09-15-2011, 12:32 PM
Just to clear something up I've heard. I heard the resturant GG went to for help was closed. I haven't been able to verify the resturants hours of operation though. Anyone know?
It was closed later which was sometime after 6 pm I think, when RG disappeared and GG went there for "help", but it was open earlier because they ate there and then left a little after 4:00 pm.:loser:
Dushi
09-15-2011, 12:36 PM
I don;t know if anyone has seen this...
http://bentpage.wordpress.com/tag/rum-reef/
concentric
09-15-2011, 12:39 PM
Nancy Grace has said that she is a scuba diver and has gone diving numerous times. I want to know more detail about what she thinks regarding the lack of evidence at that snorkeling site.
katydid23
09-15-2011, 12:47 PM
If RG had brand new expensive extensions, which has been reported by her friends, then she was NOT going to go snorkeling, imo.
neesaki
09-15-2011, 12:48 PM
Here's a little info on Baby Beach and Rodgers Beach area :
http://beaches.uptake.com/blog/my-favorite-aruba-beaches-4-baby-beach.html
concentric
09-15-2011, 12:54 PM
I don;t know if anyone has seen this...
http://bentpage.wordpress.com/tag/rum-reef/
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There is no reason to go snorkeling at that place, not because it's particularly dangerous, but because there's hardly anything to look at either above or below the water. Also, RG would never have walked in her wedgies over sharp outcroppings of rocks to get to the waterline in order to put flippers on. And, I don't think she liked flippers, masks or anything to go with snorkeling anyway. I doubt that he could have talked her into donning snorkeling gear, especially to go there.
GVG probably knew that someone went missing there, so he chose it as his alibi.
LambChop
09-15-2011, 03:00 PM
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There is no reason to go snorkeling at that place, not because it's particularly dangerous, but because there's hardly anything to look at either above or below the water. Also, RG would never have walked in her wedgies over sharp outcroppings of rocks to get to the waterline in order to put flippers on. And, I don't think she liked flippers, masks or anything to go with snorkeling anyway. I doubt that he could have talked her into donning snorkeling gear, especially to go there.
GVG probably knew that someone went missing there, so he chose it as his alibi.
The pictures show Baby Beach where you can swim...very shallow and there are little fish there for the children to look at as you get close to the breakers. In the second photo who can see the breakers in the distance and that is where they were. Not a place you want to go unless you are a strong swimmer and the underwater currents are strong there. There is a gap in one of the breakers and you can feel the surge as you get close to it so on the other side the current has to be strong and this location is at the tip of the island. The cove part is a great place to enjoy the water, really to shallow to swim but great for the kids.
Near the Marriett there are rocky areas but they are flat and there are plenty of fish to be seen. Some of the tour boats will anchor off the shore and let their passengers snorkel. If they asked at the Marriett where is a good place to see fish they would have been directed there. I was there, myself, this June and while I did not see many fish my friend was able to see many, turtles, etc. by swimming about 20 - 30 foot from shore. Very safe and a lot of people around if there was a problem...plus homes right there.
Another thing that puts up a red flag is the time of day. Aruba sits East of the eastern coast of the US. It is further east than the NE coastline. They are in a different timezone but do not use DST. So in the summer they have the same time as DST. Regardless it gets darker faster there earlier than say Connecticut. At 5 pm the sun is already low in the sky and way too low to see what is in the water clearly. The sun set at 7:06pm on August 2nd and that means it was down below the horizon.
Too hinky to be an accident. jmo
Dushi
09-15-2011, 03:32 PM
Aruba police to re-enact drowning of US tourist
Associated Press
The Aruban prosecutor's office says it will re-enact the alleged drowning of a U.S. woman to test her companion's account of the incident.
Solicitor General Taco Stein tells The Associated Press the re-enactment will take place soon but he won't say when. Police will play the roles of Maryland businessman Gary Giordano and alleged drowning victim Robyn Gardner. Investigators want to know if it's possible for Gardner to have drowned while snorkeling as Giordano described
http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=1708241
Niner
09-15-2011, 03:37 PM
Thanks. Your info about the currents and the dangers of that place he was at is also what the fisherman Sergio Silva said in his interview. It appears this is local common knowledge, perhaps something GG could have come to understand by having a couple of conversations on the island, or even before arriving. Per an earlier unconfirmed report, this is his first trip to Aruba. If GG was plotting the "accidental death" he chose a spot which he thought would fit the story, and visited it the day before to confirm how he could portray events. With your additional info about the relative ease one could throw a body off a cliff in some areas without being seen, it certainly is possible he had that knowledge as well and disposed of the body that way. Then there is the fact no body has washed up, and per you and others they usually do.
Perhaps, if ABC's source is correct (a big if), we will get to know a lot of info about this case when the Federal Grand Jury is held in a couple of weeks. I am curious if he can be indicted on a 1st Degree Murder charge, if the premeditation occurred in Maryland and was then sent to AMEX in another state, then the death occurring in Aruba. I am also wondering how it ties in with the Aruba proceedings, and what sequence events would occur in, etc.
It was said in the beginning of this 'case' that he was very interested in the Natalee Holloway story - so maybe he read about the cliffs where the sharks are from there; maybe RG & GG were out there earlier on Monday - excuse - scouting photo shots... just a thought! :fence:
HatesSociopaths
09-15-2011, 03:38 PM
Aruba police to re-enact drowning of US tourist
Associated Press
The Aruban prosecutor's office says it will re-enact the alleged drowning of a U.S. woman to test her companion's account of the incident.
Solicitor General Taco Stein tells The Associated Press the re-enactment will take place soon but he won't say when. Police will play the roles of Maryland businessman Gary Giordano and alleged drowning victim Robyn Gardner. Investigators want to know if it's possible for Gardner to have drowned while snorkeling as Giordano described
http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=1708241
From the article:
Police will play the roles of Maryland businessman Gary Giordano and alleged drowning victim Robyn Gardner. Investigators want to know if it's possible for Gardner to have drowned while snorkeling as Giordano described.
When I heard about the planned reenactment I was hoping they would be doing what I have been thinking I would do if I was them, which is try to simulate a dead body the weight of RG, let it drift out there and see where it goes. It seems like that could be used as evidence by the prosecution if it floated back to shore, as well as possibly point the way to the actual body of RG if indeed she did float out to sea there.
HatesSociopaths
09-15-2011, 03:46 PM
It was said in the beginning of this 'case' that he was very interested in the Natalee Holloway story - so maybe he read about the cliffs where the sharks are from there; maybe RG & GG were out there earlier on Monday - excuse - scouting photo shots... just a thought! :fence:
Yes I agree in fact I was able to learn of those cliffs myself from googling the subject a few weeks ago, and the NH case was where it showed up (in message threads just like this one.) I think the FBI got a treasure trove of evidence of premeditation from his computer. MOO.
Niner
09-15-2011, 03:47 PM
I'm going to re-post the approx. TimeLine, as it's way back on page 1 and I made a couple of changes; if anyone 'sees' anything else new in the news about times - please post and I'll update this as necessary! TIA! :seeya:
TimeLine (approx)
July 2011 - Robyn sends GG a text "Get me out of here." Per a report. there is a fight just prior to leaving for Aruba between GG and RF.
Sunday, July 31st - Flight time from Maryland to Orlando is about 1 1/2 hours. Given the time they would have needed to be at the airport for security, my guess-timate is that they were at the airport no later than 6am.
9am – Orlando Airport: ABC News has seen receipts that revealed that the couple ordered four Bloody Marys at 9 a.m. at the Orlando Airport on their way to the island,
?? Arrive at hotel - and that the two bought a liter of Ciroq vodka after they checked into their room at the Marriott Hotel in Aruba.
Sunday, July 31, late afternoon - I met Robyn and Gary on the beach in front of the Marriott Stellaris Hotel. They had arrived on that day. My husband and I sat and spoke with them for awhile. They asked my husband and I about activities on the island.... Was shocked to see that this had happened, since we just spoke with them last Sunday, late afternoon. I am sure it was Robyn because I commented on her tattoo, indicating that I liked it. Didn't think they went together as a couple, as he was much older. She was also sitting kind of far away from him on the beach chair. She was nice. We were actually discussing the Natalee Holloway case. I will pray for her return.
Monday, August 1st - GG and RG bought bottle of vodka this day, per reports.
3:09pm – Toyota RAV-4 drives by The Rum Reef Bar & Grill – seen on video.
3:41pm – GG & RG seen walking by the ‘closed’ restaurant gates –“ walking on beach” seen on video.
5:02pm – Facebook comment: “the 16. I can communicate here.”
Tuesday. August 2nd – 2:05am - Facebook comment left on RF's wall by Robyn: "This sucks."
Tuesday, August 2nd – 6:51am - Prime murder suspect Gary Giordano, who friends said she met on a swingers sex site, is thought to have threatened to kill her while grabbing her by the neck and shoving her into an elevator on August 2 - the last day Miss Gardner, 35, was seen alive. The videotape from the Marriott Resort in Aruba allegedly shows the two having a furious and violent fight on the day she went missing. A source close to the investigation told the National Enquirer: 'They were having a major fight.
Robyn was waving her arms and shouting at Giordano. He was grabbing her arms and jerking her around and shouting back at her. 'Then Giordano apparently realized their argument was heating up in public where someone might overhear them. He violently grabbed the back of Robyn's neck with one hand and shoved her back into the elevator with the other hand.' After reviewing the video multiple times, experts believe Robyn shouted: 'I'm out of here. I'm leaving ****** you!. I'm not spending another minute with you!' while he shouted back: 'Get back here! I'll kill you, b*****!'
Tuesday, August 2nd – 7:57am - Facebook: RF to Robyn: “?? InBox me”
3:07pm - Arrived at restaurant – Seen on camera entering restaurant.
3:10pm - Robyn sends RF a Facebook message 'Don't worry. I care about you I love you we'll talk and sort things out when I got back,' Reportedly went to bathroom after entering restaurant.
At 3:57pm, Giordano returns to their rental car outside and refills his blue cup, going back inside at 4pm Seven minutes later, Gardner heads to the bathroom again. One witness has said that at this point she seems sober but groggy.
4:13pm - Robyn is last seen (leaving restaurant). A man who works near Baby Beach reported seeing their vehicle park up by the rocks close to the water, wondered why they chose there to go snorkeling. A fisherman comes forward and says that GG and RG never went into the water. Gardner was last seen alive Aug. 2 at the Rum Reef Bar & Grill in the Baby Beach area of Aruba with Gary Giordano - approximately 4pm. Giordano, 50, and Gardner, 35, had traveled to Aruba together. He is being held in an Arubian jail but could be released today. Giordano claims that Gardner got swept out to sea when the two went snorkeling
approx. 4:22pm - Approximately 10 minutes after leaving restaurant a fisherman reportedly saw Giordano and Gardner leaving a beach together, and said they did not get into the water.
6:15pm (time seen on video) - GG knocking on several back doors.
6:16pm – (video) GG walking up the stairs.
6:16pm – (video) GG walking along the bar.
6:17pm - (video) GG walking the bar area; then walking around to the back (no footage).
6:20pm - GG reportedly headed to the back kitchen of the bar and told someone to call police. Three witnesses, two women and a man, told police that Giordano approached them on Aug. 2, saying, "Can you help me? We were snorkeling and my girlfriend is missing," she told police. One woman told police that while Giordano's sneakers were wet, his shorts were not. When Giordano reported Gardner missing, he seemed extremely drunk, a local fisherman, Sergio Silva, told ABC News, although Giordano told police that the two never purchased alcohol at the restaurant.
6.23pm - 911 received notification of a possible drowning of a woman. The traveling companion of this woman, a man G.V.G. stated that they were going snorkeling behind Nanki Country Club. At 6:23 p.m. on the day of her disappearance, police were called, and 20 minutes later began to search the area. Then, Giordano left the search to return to his hotel and take a nap, according to police. Disclaimer: This claim, at 6.40 GG went for a nap, not true, there are various pics of GG helping the police in the dark, pics where it is completely dark, it takes till 7:30 for it to get dark, so GG was not taking a nap at 6:40, he still was working with the police at least at 7:30.
Wednesday, August 4th - Robin’s mother arrives.
Wednesday, August 4th – original date to fly back
Friday, August 5th - Three days after the search for Gardner began, Giordano got within feet of leaving the country before he was stopped at Aruba's airport where he told U.S. Customs he had to change flights because of weather, and told officials that his travel companion was "taking another flight." He was trying to board a flight one hour earlier than his scheduled departure. When arrested, authorities say Giordano was drenched in sweat. Mug shot after being arrested trying to get on a plane off the island.
Wednesday, August 31st – GG detained in jail for another 60 days (til Oct. 30th).
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