PDA

View Full Version : Reasons why you think it could be suicide


Pages : [1] 2 3

CDS22
09-12-2011, 11:36 AM
I'm still on the fence, but leaning towards suicide the more I read here. I'd like to hear other people's views on why you think it's suicide.

I have multiple reasons for leaning towards the suicide theory. I'll begin by copying my post about why Rebecca possibly left the message she was alleged to have left, from the thread about the painted message . I believe that "She save him, can you save her?" could be a valid suicide message, and this is why:

I think it could mean that Rebecca was angry and hurt at the time of her death. I imagine the scenario this way, and again, these are just my thoughts and nothing more:

I think that JS MIGHT have told RZ that Max wasn't going to make it, and asked her to move out of the mansion before he got back to it. I think RZ MIGHT have been angry because she credited herself with "saving" MS, even though he was going to die eventually. So she possibly could have planned her message (angry black block letters) as a dig at JS - She (RZ) saved him (MS), can you (JS ) save her?

I also believe she hanged herself in the nude because I read an article that Ocean linked here on thread 1, 2, or 3 that stated that nude suicides are usally committed by people who are angry and want to get back at someone.

I also think that was why she possibly could have killed herself outside, where AS or someone coming to the guest house (perhaps JS to see his brother?) could find her.

My humble two cents.

CDS22
09-12-2011, 11:38 AM
I also believe that self-bondage isn't an impossibility. In fact, it happens all the time. Of course, simply because it isn't as uncommon as some may think, does not mean that it happened in Rebecca's case.

This link has pictures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-bondage

CDS22
09-12-2011, 11:39 AM
This link contains a list of "Famous Cases" of people who have died while bound in a manner similar to the way Rebecca was found. Does this mean that Rebecca died in the same manner? Of course not, but it does show it's in the realm of possibility.

Erotic asphyxiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Sada_Abe.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Sada_Abe.jpg/220px-Sada_Abe.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/b5/Sada_Abe.jpg/220px-Sada_Abe.jpg

CDS22
09-12-2011, 11:40 AM
The blood on Rebecca's legs can be explained by blood engorgement of the genitals, not uncommon with hanging deaths.

Death by hanging, whether an execution or a suicide, has been observed to affect the genitals of both men and women. In women, the labia and clitoris will become engorged and there may be a discharge of blood from the vagina.

Death erection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CDS22
09-12-2011, 11:44 AM
Reasons for a naked suicide:

Naked suicide suggests a variety of psychological themes. The shedding of clothes may symbolize a new beginning, a rebirth and cleansing, or a sloughing off of the world. In the biblical description of Christ's resurrection, his clothes, a symbol of an unregenerate world, were left behind as he ascended into heaven.11

Anger and vengeance can be expressed by completing suicide while naked, especially when it is intended to traumatize a survivor. The shock of discovering a naked suicide inflicts an indelible, traumatic memory that can haunt a survivor for a lifetime.12 The person who completes suicide while naked may intend to add insult to a suicide survivor's already devastating injury.

In severely depressed individuals, a naked suicide may be an expression of vulnerability, utter despair, desolation, and worthlessness. Psychotic patients may be responding to delusions or auditory hallucinations commanding them to commit suicide while naked as a self-abasement.

In an illustrative case example, a suicidal psychiatric inpatient with a psychotic depression (case disguised) believed that he was the cause of the world's calamities. During suicide risk assessment, it was discovered that the patient planned a naked suicide to atone for his "sins" by becoming a "sacrificial lamb, shorn of my clothes."

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/2/240

CDS22
09-12-2011, 11:49 AM
And then there is the guilt factor. Rebecca's sisters have stated that they don't think Rebecca felt particularly guilty about little Max's injuries and impending death. They mention her continuing with activities such as shopping, dinner, and normal conversations with loved ones. However, they have also said that Rebecca loved Max as much as a mother, and that, in fact, people assumed Rebecca was Max's mother.

So if Rebecca really did love Max as much as they claim, would she not have felt any sort of guit or pain over his impending death? Most mothers, if not all, will tell you how much guilt is a component of true motherhood. We all feel guilty if our kids fall or get scrapes. It's commonplace for parents to blame themselves for things that happened when they were clearly not to blame, so why wouldn't Rebecca feel such guilt if Max was under her care while he received his injuries? She'd have to be a robot to not feel some iota of guilt or pain.

So while she may NOT have committed suicide, it's hardly out of the realm of possibility that she did due to overwhelming guilt and sorrow over an innocent child's tragic death.

oceanblueeyes
09-12-2011, 12:36 PM
I fully believe Rebecca killed herself.

Her life changed for the worse the day Max fell..........it bottomed out when she received the call that all hope was gone of saving Max.

I truly believe her love for Max and Jonah was deep and genuine.

I know that the loss of a loved one can trigger suicidal thoughts.

I also know that close relationships can trigger suicides when something tragic happens and turns their lives upside down forever changing what could have been.

But most of all I trust the evidence found during the 7 long week investigation.

It is a simple deduction of the facts, imo.

The main one is there is absolutely no evidence found that anyone else was there at the time but Rebecca. I don't buy into the idea that some phantom killer was in the house who left no footprints anywhere or DNA.

Imo, this wasnt an undoable act. It really doesn't take much planning. Go get the rope..the knives...go to the guest bedroom with the balcony...cut the ropes in three pieces...print the message on the door. Apply the ropes and walk out on the balcony and jump off. The rope tying is not complicated. It is more like weaving a figure eight back and forth on each wrist and putting the rope through in order to tighten.

Both Dina and Jonah's whereabouts during the time that Rebecca killed herself are ironclad.

Adam, per the Zahau family, took a polygraph and passed. They don't even suspect Adam of any wrongdoing.

So who does that leave? A hit man? Well hit men have to be contacted and I have no doubt cell phone records by all parties involved are in the possession of LE and were thoroughly gone through just like they viewed the surveillance tapes of the hospital and Ronald McDonald house who prides itself on its safety even having to use key cards to leave and enter.

A hit man would not go to all this trouble, imo. They are in and out quickly and if hired they would not do it in the home Rebecca was in but would lure her to another place less suspicious, imo. If any note was written the hit man would make Rebecca write it on paper and it would be clear and concise. Not some cryptic message on a door that no one can understand.

But we do know that when a person commits suicide they are not in a rational state of mind and what they decide to do and how... is known only to them. They can be very creative but each person is unique.

Just google 'odd or weird suicides". Suicides are just as individualistic as anything else a human being does.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
09-12-2011, 12:57 PM
Above 2 items BBM

1. My problem is with the investigation. I don't feel they even checked the house for any other footprints or DNA. IMO they felt it was a suicide from the get-go and didn't bother to investigate it as anything other than a suicide. I know they claimed they did, but I just don't believe them.

2. I disagree with the word "ironclad" here.

IMO MOO JMO!!!

They had to if they came to the determination that no other fingerprints were found but hers.

I do think their alibis are ironclad.

LE have the tapes from the hospital.

And at McDonald house they use key card entries which logs when the room is opened and closed. I have no doubt LE has those logs during the time Rebecca killed herself.

LE said 'beyond a shadow of a doubt we know where Dina and Jonah Shacknai were" Paraphrasing from memory.

IMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-12-2011, 01:14 PM
I'm probably posting my beliefs in the wrong thread LOL sorry. I will move to the other thread!

Dr. Know?
09-12-2011, 02:35 PM
I'm not 100% convinced it was suicide but after reading the AR, on page 9, the examiner describes the black paint on RN's right hand. It sounds consistant to me she held the tube of paint in that hand between her thumb & index finger. Now was she right handed or left handed? Also the descriptions throughout the AR where paint is located on her body and rope leads me to believe even more she was the writer of the note on the door if she was left handed.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en

CDS22
09-16-2011, 10:43 AM
Interesting article and footage of others who have hanged themselves in similar fashion to Rebecca Zahau:

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15294873/coronado-mansion-death-the-suicide-scenario

CDS22
09-17-2011, 08:40 PM
Another interesting article, this time from Psychology Today, in support of the suicide theory:

http://my.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-act-violence/201109/hanging-the-beach-house-female-suicide-or-murder-0

JBean
09-17-2011, 10:45 PM
I don't have enough knowledge about the case yet to make my own determination.


But,the most compelling reason for suicide to me is that no one would stage a murder to look like a suicide that didn't look like a suicide.

coastal
09-17-2011, 11:07 PM
Another interesting article, this time from Psychology Today, in support of the suicide theory:

http://my.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-act-violence/201109/hanging-the-beach-house-female-suicide-or-murder-0
Thanks for the article, CDS22. Did you note the author?

Steve Albrecht, DBA has authored or co-authored 15 books, including Ticking Bombs: Defusing Violence in the Workplace, Fear and Violence on the Job, and Tactical Perfection for Street Cops. He holds degrees in English and Psychology, and a doctorate in Business Administration. Albrecht is a former police officer and domestic violence investigator with the San Diego Police Department.


I'm sure Dr.Albrecht is completely impartial in this matter, but I believe I'll take his conclusions with a grain of salt anyway. KWIM?

jjenny
09-17-2011, 11:17 PM
I don't have enough knowledge about the case yet to make my own determination.


But,the most compelling reason for suicide to me is that no one would stage a murder to look like a suicide that didn't look like a suicide.

Whatever it was, clearly it looked enough like a suicide for a police declare their case "iron clad."

KarenM
09-17-2011, 11:26 PM
Another interesting article, this time from Psychology Today, in support of the suicide theory:

http://my.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-act-violence/201109/hanging-the-beach-house-female-suicide-or-murder-0

Dr Albrecht quoted Georgetown University's 2008 study of nake suicide. Here are a few extracts from the study, which contradicts Dr Albrecht's opinion:

"With the exception of jumping, most naked suicides occur indoors. " - RN's nude body was hanging outside for the world to see. (jumping refers to jump and fall to death from a tall building or bridge per the article)

"Autoerotic asphyxia is the use of strangulation to enhance the pleasure of masturbation...Conventional wisdom has it that a woman found hanging naked is most likely a homicide or a staged suicide... Nonetheless, women do hang themselves or induce asphyxia by other means while naked." - No one thinks RN is doing asphyxia to enhance her sexual pleasure, don't we?

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/2/240

KarenM
09-17-2011, 11:44 PM
Thanks for the article, CDS22. Did you note the author?

Steve Albrecht, DBA has authored or co-authored 15 books, including Ticking Bombs: Defusing Violence in the Workplace, Fear and Violence on the Job, and Tactical Perfection for Street Cops. He holds degrees in English and Psychology, and a doctorate in Business Administration. Albrecht is a former police officer and domestic violence investigator with the San Diego Police Department.

I'm sure Dr.Albrecht is completely impartial in this matter, but I believe I'll take his conclusions with a grain of salt anyway. KWIM?
Now I am wondering how impartial Dr. Albrecht is.

thinkingstraight
09-18-2011, 01:08 AM
I believe the following: Js called RN, tells her that Max is going to die, for her to get out of his house. That it's all over and done with. I don't know if he blamed her, or even thought she was to blame, but he wasn't going to bat for her. I think she had been in some kind of drama w his family for a while and this was just the last Straw. She went about this complicated suicide to either a) delay her suicide in hopes that he would find her and save her from herself (or change his mind)or b) to mimic a homicide so as to cast blame on the family. Like I said before, I think she was scorned and hell hath no fury. .
This is my opinion.

jjenny
09-18-2011, 01:13 AM
And why exactly would she think JS was going to find her? She didn't call him after listening to voice mail. In fact she didn't call anyone, not even her sister with whom she was in contact all evening. She wouldn't expect him to show up at home.

thinkingstraight
09-18-2011, 01:20 AM
And why exactly would she think JS was going to find her? She didn't call him after listening to voice mail. In fact she didn't call anyone, not even her sister with whom she was in contact all evening. She wouldn't expect him to show up at home.

I listed that a possibility in my opinion. People regret things they say and try to make amends all the time.

jjenny
09-18-2011, 01:27 AM
I listed that a possibility in my opinion. People regret things they say and try to make amends all the time.

Well if she expected he was going to regret and make amends, why go kill herself within hours of getting message? What's the rush? He didn't even talk to her person to person. But she never tried to contact him after supposedly getting the message.

thinkingstraight
09-18-2011, 01:40 AM
Well if she expected he was going to regret and make amends, why go kill herself within hours of getting message? What's the rush? He didn't even talk to her person to person. But she never tried to contact him after supposedly getting the message.

I never said i thought she expected it. It may have been her last hope - a long shot hope to buy her some time. I lean more to the mimic of a homicide possibility, but I try to think about all the possibilities. I think she was a very angry and desperate person at this point. iMO

sorrell skye
09-18-2011, 02:18 AM
Another interesting article, this time from Psychology Today, in support of the suicide theory:

http://my.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-act-violence/201109/hanging-the-beach-house-female-suicide-or-murder-0

This article is fraught with inaccuracies and/or assumptions.

Her naked body was found on the ground below, by her brother, who was living on the property in a guest house.

She wasn't found by her brother, but by JS's brother, AS. Nor was AS living on the property. He had flown in after Max's accident, and was a guest @ the mansion. In addition - RZ's body wasn't found on the "ground below" - she was reportedly found hanging by JS's brother.

... just after one a.m., ... Rebecca Zahau took a shower, removed her clothes, and used a paint brush and a tube of black paint to write a message on the door of a guest room where she kept her art supplies.

Where does he get this stuff? No one has reported that the guestroom was a room where RZ "kept her art supplies".

She then tied a length of red nylon rope, which she may have retrieved from the garage where boating equipment was stored, to the foot of her bed frame.

The foot of her bed frame? Again - where does he get this stuff?

She wrapped the rope over a long-sleeved shirt she had placed around her neck,

Uh, no - it was the exact opposite - the blue tee shirt was wrapped around the rope. If he had taken the time to read the AR, he would know that.

The rope either broke or became untied and she fell to the ground below.

Huh??? Has he not read the numerous media reports & the autopsy report, which clearly state that the rope from which RZ hung was cut down by AS? Good Lord!

... there was a small knife and a large knife in the bedroom - her fingerprints were found on the small one and her DNA was found on the large one; her DNA was found on the bed, the rope, the balcony door, and the bedroom door;

According to the Sept. 2 PC, RZ's fingerprints were found on the large knife & the bed leg next to the rope - NOT her DNA. In addition, her fingerprints were found on the guest room entry door jamb & the balcony door - NOT her DNA.

The small knife contained RZ's DNA (no fingerprints).

Geez - if this guy is going to comment, the least he can do is be accurate, for crying out loud!

I noticed that the author of the article quoted Dr. Baden in support of the official suicide finding, but failed to mention Dr. Cyril Wecht's comments to the media that challenged the suicide finding, based in part on injuries to the victim (most notably the 4 subgaleal hemorrhages).

There is nothing to connect Rebecca's brother or her boyfriend to her death, or any other known or unknown person.

Rebecca's brother? Good grief! If someone is going to write an editorial on this case, the least that person can do is to educate themselves as to who the various family members are (or aren't). And he's actually attempting to defend the "suicide" theory! His lack of knowledge as to the factual details of the case renders his defense laughable, IMO.

Steve Albrecht, Ph.D. - do your homework!

http://my.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-act-violence/201109/hanging-the-beach-house-female-suicide-or-murder-0

This so-called "article" reminds me of why I don't read Psychology Today.

elementry
09-18-2011, 02:18 AM
I believe the following: Js called RN, tells her that Max is going to die, for her to get out of his house. That it's all over and done with. I don't know if he blamed her, or even thought she was to blame, but he wasn't going to bat for her. I think she had been in some kind of drama w his family for a while and this was just the last Straw. She went about this complicated suicide to either a) delay her suicide in hopes that he would find her and save her from herself (or change his mind)or b) to mimic a homicide so as to cast blame on the family. Like I said before, I think she was scorned and hell hath no fury. .
This is my opinion.

Why would he wait for immanent death of MS to be verified to decide to kick her out, if things were so screwed? The accident on her watch had already happened. Actual death though would be the last straw? Why would JS go on with the farce just until that point? And what about the "special place in his heart" for Rebecca that Jonah mentioned in his press release? He just made that part up? According to your thesis he was pretty disgusted with her and all but ready to end the relationship.

jjenny
09-18-2011, 03:14 AM
Amazing how many mistakes can be made in one little article. Claiming her brother was living in a guest house on the property-that's just wrong.
:banghead:

thinkingstraight
09-18-2011, 01:39 PM
Why would he wait for immanent death of MS to be verified to decide to kick her out, if things were so screwed? The accident on her watch had already happened. Actual death though would be the last straw? Why would JS go on with the farce just until that point? And what about the "special place in his heart" for Rebecca that Jonah mentioned in his press release? He just made that part up? According to your thesis he was pretty disgusted with her and all but ready to end the relationship.

Honestly, when I look at the reasons people have conflicting views on this subject, a lot if it has to do with how we personally relate to others - we are drawing conclusions about what we think are going on in people's heads and we only have our personal experiences to compare it with. It's hard to argue with someone about what we think someone else is thinking. Obviously I have a more cynical take on their relationship. It's interesting that you think he was expressing his love for her in the press release when that same statement has been used as an example of him being callous about her death. We can't have it both ways.
Regardless, this thread asked why we THOUGHT it was suicide and I never expected to be grilled on my opinion. It's rather exhausting IMO.

CDS22
09-18-2011, 01:41 PM
I believe the following: Js called RN, tells her that Max is going to die, for her to get out of his house. That it's all over and done with. I don't know if he blamed her, or even thought she was to blame, but he wasn't going to bat for her. I think she had been in some kind of drama w his family for a while and this was just the last Straw. She went about this complicated suicide to either a) delay her suicide in hopes that he would find her and save her from herself (or change his mind)or b) to mimic a homicide so as to cast blame on the family. Like I said before, I think she was scorned and hell hath no fury. .
This is my opinion.


I agree with your scenario. I think that the fact that the accident happened under RZ's care didn't sit well with some family members, and I agree that many of them didn't like her to begin with. I think JS and her were having problems prior to the accident and that this was the last straw, as you say.

I also think the Shacknai family knew from the start that MS wasn't going to make it, but they waited to inform RZ. They might have just found out that everything was finally together for the donor program at a late hour, and that meant they finally had a time frame within which MS would be taken off life support. That's what I think the late nigh call to RZ from JS was about, and that's when he told her that he wanted her gone before he got home the next night.

I believe she was furious because she thought she should get some kind of credit for "saving" MS until his family could say good-bye to him, and decided to commit suicide publicly and nakedly in a way to either humiliate JS and his family, or to somehow atone for MS's death. I think the shirt around her neck was for vanity's sake. Suicide experts say that hanging is the second way most women commit suicide (the first being pills) because they don't want their appearance marred.

I think her note was meant to be a jab at JS, as in "I saved MS until you could say good-bye to him, can anyone save me?", almost like she wanted credit to the end for "saving" MS even though she didn't save anyone, certainly not MS.

I also think she went out in the most jarring, blazing way she could think of in order to get back at the family (trying to ruin their family vacation home for them) and also trying to detract from MS's imminent death.

I have a relative who is a psychiatric nurse who works with the criminally insane, and she has her own theories about this, but I'm not sure if I can post them here.

Everything I've written here is only my opinion, but I believe it was suicide. However, I am open to the fact that there may be more information pending in this case that would change my mind.

CDS22
09-18-2011, 01:43 PM
Why would he wait for immanent death of MS to be verified to decide to kick her out, if things were so screwed? The accident on her watch had already happened. Actual death though would be the last straw? Why would JS go on with the farce just until that point? And what about the "special place in his heart" for Rebecca that Jonah mentioned in his press release? He just made that part up? According to your thesis he was pretty disgusted with her and all but ready to end the relationship.

You can break up with someone and yet that person can still have a special place in your heart.

stilettos
09-18-2011, 01:46 PM
Honestly, when I look at the reasons people have conflicting views on this subject, a lot if it has to do with how we personally relate to others - we are drawing conclusions about what we think are going on in people's heads and we only have our personal experiences to compare it with. It's hard to argue with someone about what we think someone else is thinking. Obviously I have a more cynical take on their relationship. It's interesting that you think he was expressing his love for her in the press release when that same statement has been used as an example of him being callous about her death. We can't have it both ways.
Regardless, this thread asked why we THOUGHT it was suicide and I never expected to be grilled on my opinion. It's rather exhausting IMO.

I am not sure IMO, that Mr. Shacknai is able to love another fully...other than himself. I think he was a wealthy man with a beautiful mistress who did his bidding..watched his children, picked up and taxied whomever he wished when he wished. If he decided he did not want her anymore...it would not have taken his sons demise for him to kick her out. JMO.

CDS22
09-18-2011, 01:48 PM
And why exactly would she think JS was going to find her? She didn't call him after listening to voice mail. In fact she didn't call anyone, not even her sister with whom she was in contact all evening. She wouldn't expect him to show up at home.

Perhaps he told her he would return home the next day. Or perhaps she wanted to commit suicide publicly so he'd be forced to leave his dying son's bedside and run to her.

CDS22
09-18-2011, 01:49 PM
I am not sure IMO, that Mr. Shacknai is able to love another fully...other than himself. I think he was a wealthy man with a beautiful mistress who did his bidding..watched his children, picked up and taxied whomever he wished when he wished. If he decided he did not want her anymore...it would not have taken his sons demise for him to kick her out. JMO.

I actually think he was thinking of breaking up with her prior to the accident, and this incident was the last straw. I also think he might have been upset with the shopping trip she took with her sister right after MS got hurt.

IMO

thinkingstraight
09-18-2011, 01:51 PM
Oh you're going to get it in a minute about accusing RN of being criminally insane and how could you possibly say that - even though you didn't lol.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure we are of the same mindset with the scenario.

jjenny
09-18-2011, 01:52 PM
I actually think he was thinking of breaking up with her prior to the accident, and this incident was the last straw. I also think he might have been upset with the shopping trip she took with her sister right after MS got hurt.

IMO

What? Weren't he going to propose, or so the rumors say?

thinkingstraight
09-18-2011, 01:53 PM
But it's ok to say JS can't love anyone but himself. Let's put that on record.

CDS22
09-18-2011, 01:54 PM
Oh you're going to get it in a minute about accusing RN of being criminally insane and how could you possibly say that - even though you didn't lol.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure we are of the same mindset with the scenario.

My point in mentioning my relative's specialty is that she often deals with suicides. It never ceases to amaze me the ways in which people take their own lives.

CDS22
09-18-2011, 01:55 PM
What? Weren't he going to propose, or so the rumors say?

Those are rumors that could have been planted by anyone, including RZ's family.

jjenny
09-18-2011, 01:55 PM
My point in mentioning my relative's specialty is that she often deals with suicides. It never ceases to amaze me the ways in which people take their own lives.

I am sure there also pretty amazing ways in which people are killed.

jjenny
09-18-2011, 01:56 PM
Those are rumors that could have been planted by anyone, including RZ's family.

As opposed to what? How do you know he wanted to break up with RN even before Max's accident?

deanna82437
09-18-2011, 01:58 PM
But it's ok to say JS can't love anyone but himself. Let's put that on record.

No, there was a JMO in that post. JMO

CDS22
09-18-2011, 01:58 PM
As opposed to what? How do you know he wanted to break up with RN even before Max's accident?

I never said that I knew that. I said that I think that. It's merely my opinion.

jjenny
09-18-2011, 02:00 PM
I never said that I knew that. I said that I think that. It's merely my opinion.

What exactly do you base it on? We've not heard from anyone that JS was planning to break up with RN prior to Max's accident. In fact both of them had their divorces finalized. She quit her job to she could spend full time with JS.

thinkingstraight
09-18-2011, 02:02 PM
No, there was a JMO in that post. JMO

I didnt really mean to put it on record. And what record anyway? What I'm saying is that there seems to be a double standard on opinions. iMO

thinkingstraight
09-18-2011, 02:08 PM
What exactly do you base it on? We've not heard from anyone that JS was planning to break up with RN prior to Max's accident. In fact both of them had their divorces finalized. She quit her job to she could spend full time with JS.

We know even from RN's sister that there were real problems between her and the children. If that doesn't strain a relationship and can lead to a possible breakup, I don't know what can. Again, these are opinions and they can be based on whatever one feels like. That's why they're called opinions. They should not feel so threatening to others.

CDS22
09-18-2011, 02:15 PM
What exactly do you base it on? We've not heard from anyone that JS was planning to break up with RN prior to Max's accident. In fact both of them had their divorces finalized. She quit her job to she could spend full time with JS.

I think she was less than sincere about why she quit her job. She obviously couldn't be taking care of JS's children full time because the children had mothers. I think she was more serious about the relationship than he was, and I think that she was frustrated that after 2 years, they weren't engaged. JMO

jjenny
09-18-2011, 02:19 PM
Yeah, but when nobody likes the person in the relationship but the one dating her, that brings problems. Problems with SO's children are amongst the leading causes of relationship breakups.

Well poor JS might just have remain single for the end of his life then. I don't think it's easy for a man with a couple of ex-wives to get a girlfriend that his ex-wives are going to like. Especially considering their own marriages to him didn't appear to be all that peachy.

CDS22
09-18-2011, 02:21 PM
Well poor JS might just have remain single for the end of his life then. I don't think it's easy for a man with a couple of ex-wives to get a girlfriend that his ex-wives are going to like. Especially considering their own marriages didn't appear to be all that peachy.

His first ex-wife and DS, as well as DS and his children from his first marriage seem to get on well. Step families can work. With RZ, however, no one seemed to like her.

jjenny
09-18-2011, 02:24 PM
His first ex-wife and DS, as well as DS and his children from his first marriage seem to get on well. Step families can work. With RZ, however, no one seemed to like her.

Again, how do you know that? While we have heard from several sources that DS wasn't too crazy about RN, we haven't heard anything about first Mrs. S and how she felt about RN. We also haven't heard anything on how first Mrs. S and second Mrs. S got along or were getting along while JS was married to DS.

SunnieRN
09-18-2011, 02:29 PM
Those are rumors that could have been planted by anyone, including RZ's family.

Rebecca's family has stated that Rebecca and JS were not planning on getting married at the time of her death.

CDS22
09-18-2011, 02:33 PM
Again, how do you know that? While we have heard from several sources that DS wasn't too crazy about RN, we haven't heard anything about first Mrs. S and how she felt about RN. We also haven't heard anything on how first Mrs. S and second Mrs. S got along or were getting along while JS was married to DS.

I'll decline from saying why I think this, but will specify that it's only my opinion. If you have evidence to suggest otherwise, please post it.

rosemary
09-19-2011, 12:32 AM
I think she was less than sincere about why she quit her job. She obviously couldn't be taking care of JS's children full time because the children had mothers. I think she was more serious about the relationship than he was, and I think that she was frustrated that after 2 years, they weren't engaged. JMO

her main frustration, according to Rebecca's sister, was the way Jonah's teenage kids were treating her. And of course, Dina's attitude towards her didn't help. But I think that if Jonah wasn't serious at all about their relationship, he wouldn't have asked her to move in with him, nor would he entrusted her to look after his children whenever they came over, and he certainly wouldn't have taken her to any of his family's important events like his son's bar mitzvah. Plus, Rebecca had even considered taking a break from the relationship earlier in the year according to her sister, so how does that show that she was more serious about the relationship than he was?

rosemary
09-19-2011, 01:22 AM
His first ex-wife and DS, as well as DS and his children from his first marriage seem to get on well. Step families can work. With RZ, however, no one seemed to like her.

How do you know that no one liked her? Her problems with Jonah's teenage kids are understandable, kids at that age can be difficult to get along with even to their own parents. But from all other accounts, Rebecca apparently didn't have any problems getting along with most everyone she met. And I don't think Jonah really cared either whether Dina liked Rebecca or not, after all, he seemed to have had an acrimonious past relationship with her. This is further evidenced when he ignored Dina's requests to not allow Rebecca to have any involvement with Max or to attend family functions. Even if no one else in the family liked Rebecca, Jonah obviously did or he would have ended or distanced himself from the relationship long before Max had his accident.

rosemary
09-19-2011, 01:51 AM
I agree with your scenario. I think that the fact that the accident happened under RZ's care didn't sit well with some family members, and I agree that many of them didn't like her to begin with. I think JS and her were having problems prior to the accident and that this was the last straw, as you say.

I also think the Shacknai family knew from the start that MS wasn't going to make it, but they waited to inform RZ. They might have just found out that everything was finally together for the donor program at a late hour, and that meant they finally had a time frame within which MS would be taken off life support. That's what I think the late nigh call to RZ from JS was about, and that's when he told her that he wanted her gone before he got home the next night.

I believe she was furious because she thought she should get some kind of credit for "saving" MS until his family could say good-bye to him, and decided to commit suicide publicly and nakedly in a way to either humiliate JS and his family, or to somehow atone for MS's death. I think the shirt around her neck was for vanity's sake. Suicide experts say that hanging is the second way most women commit suicide (the first being pills) because they don't want their appearance marred.

I think her note was meant to be a jab at JS, as in "I saved MS until you could say good-bye to him, can anyone save me?", almost like she wanted credit to the end for "saving" MS even though she didn't save anyone, certainly not MS.

I also think she went out in the most jarring, blazing way she could think of in order to get back at the family (trying to ruin their family vacation home for them) and also trying to detract from MS's imminent death.

I have a relative who is a psychiatric nurse who works with the criminally insane, and she has her own theories about this, but I'm not sure if I can post them here.

Everything I've written here is only my opinion, but I believe it was suicide. However, I am open to the fact that there may be more information pending in this case that would change my mind.

but why in the world would Rebecca refer to herself in third person? And if the family had decided not to inform her about anything till arrangements had finally been made, why did Nina text Rebecca about wanting to talk to her prior to Jonah's call? Plus, why didn't Rebecca at least call back or text Jonah if she was furious that they didn't give her any credit for saving Max?

SunnieRN
09-19-2011, 02:11 AM
Oh you're going to get it in a minute about accusing RN of being criminally insane and how could you possibly say that - even though you didn't lol.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure we are of the same mindset with the scenario.

Wow, that was harsh.

but why in the world would Rebecca refer to herself in third person? And if the family had decided not to inform her about anything till arrangements had finally been made, why did Nina text Rebecca about wanting to talk to her prior to Jonah's call? Plus, why didn't Rebecca at least call back or text Jonah if she was furious that they didn't give her any credit for saving Max?

Great points Rosemary. Especially the one concerning Nina's text message.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 08:35 AM
but why in the world would Rebecca refer to herself in third person? And if the family had decided not to inform her about anything till arrangements had finally been made, why did Nina text Rebecca about wanting to talk to her prior to Jonah's call? Plus, why didn't Rebecca at least call back or text Jonah if she was furious that they didn't give her any credit for saving Max?

In regards to the suicide letter: When I was a kid, I read a book that contained suicide notes. It shook me up so badly I never finished the book. The one I remember the most was something to the effect of "Oh Mary, I'm just so tired". Anyway, some of the notes included in the book just didn't make sense, and the author noted that suicidal people often don't make sense in their last moments because they're not thinking clearly. Also, don't forget that English wasn't RZ's first language. Sometimes statements credited to her by others (referring to XZ as her daughter, although maybe that one is true, or referring to MS as her son) didn't always make sense.

In regards to MS's aunt's text to RZ: DS's sister's text was about wanting to find out more about MS's accident, something very natural for a relative to do. We are strangers on this board, yet we still want to know more about the accident. Of course MS's aunt would want some answers.

In regards to RZ's conversations with JS: Maybe she was too mad to answer him. Maybe they'd had this conversation before, and she told him she was angry he didn't credit her enough with "saving" MS. Maybe that's what the conversation between JS, AS, and RZ was all about during their last dinner together. Maybe RZ's answer was in a big, dramatic, angry suicide, let out in the open for the world to see.

JMO

CDS22
09-19-2011, 08:41 AM
How do you know that no one liked her? Her problems with Jonah's teenage kids are understandable, kids at that age can be difficult to get along with even to their own parents. But from all other accounts, Rebecca apparently didn't have any problems getting along with most everyone she met. And I don't think Jonah really cared either whether Dina liked Rebecca or not, after all, he seemed to have had an acrimonious past relationship with her. This is further evidenced when he ignored Dina's requests to not allow Rebecca to have any involvement with Max or to attend family functions. Even if no one else in the family liked Rebecca, Jonah obviously did or he would have ended or distanced himself from the relationship long before Max had his accident.

I agree that JS at one point must have liked RZ or he wouldn't have been sleeping with her. However, it appears that RZ wasn't happy in the relationship (if we believe the latest from her sister, which seems to contradict earlier statements the family has made). I personally believe - jmo - that JS was getting ready to break up with RZ.

It would be interesting if detectives were to check out RZ's background a little bit more. What was she doing prior to the 2-year job she quit? Where did she receive her education? Who were her friends? What was her job history like?

This is a woman who was recently divorced, had no job, and complained frequently to her sister about her relationship. Doesn't seem like she was too happy, fulfilled, or had lots of friendships going on. She certainly didn't have any friends texting or calling her in recent days, according to her phone records.

JMO

Truthwillsetufree
09-19-2011, 09:20 AM
Another interesting article, this time from Psychology Today, in support of the suicide theory:

http://my.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-act-violence/201109/hanging-the-beach-house-female-suicide-or-murder-0

Some of the "facts" that are presented in this article are not the facts presented in MSM...FWIW.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 09:28 AM
Some of the "facts" that are presented in this article are not the facts presented in MSM...FWIW.

Just like articles that are quoted here about MS's death aren't accurate either. For example, there are still claims he fell down the stairs or that he "tripped and fell", and no one questions these articles.

The main point of the Psychology Today article is that RZ certainly could have been suicidal.

Truthwillsetufree
09-19-2011, 10:01 AM
Just like articles that are quoted here about MS's death aren't accurate either. For example, there are still claims he fell down the stairs or that he "tripped and fell", and no one questions these articles.

The main point of the Psychology Today article is that RZ certainly could have been suicidal.

Yes, could have. In order to give the article any credence whatsoever the author, at the very least, should have checked his facts. Posts here on WS is not a bimonthly published magazine written for a mass audience with a subscription circulation of 291,989 touting "experts" as it's authors. I do believe Psychology Today should be held to a higher standard than that of a crime sleuthing website posting opinions and theories, although, it is glaringly obvious that WSers are more capable at finding facts than the author of this article.JMOFWIW.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 10:20 AM
Yes, could have. In order to give the article any credence whatsoever the author, at the very least, should have checked his facts. Posts here on WS is not a bimonthly published magazine written for a mass audience with a subscription circulation of 291,989 touting "experts" as it's authors. I do believe Psychology Today should be held to a higher standard than that of a crime sleuthing website posting opinions and theories, although, it is glaringly obvious that WSers are more capable at finding facts than the author of this article.JMOFWIW.

I was referring to news sources that WS readers post in support of the Zahau family. Those articles don't even get the cause of MS's accident right. They've made claims from the unsubstantiated planking to the latest, Max "tripping".

jjenny
09-19-2011, 10:29 AM
I was referring to news sources that WS readers post in support of the Zahau family. Those articles don't even get the cause of MS's accident right. They've made claims from the unsubstantiated planking to the latest, Max "tripping".

Since nobody knows the exact cause of MS's accident, what exactly would be getting it right?

CDS22
09-19-2011, 10:53 AM
Since nobody knows the exact cause of MS's accident, what exactly would be getting it right?

Stating the fact that no one knows the exact cause of MS's accident, instead of making up ridiculous stories.

jjenny
09-19-2011, 10:56 AM
Stating the fact that no one knows the exact cause of MS's accident, instead of making up ridiculous stories.

At least is not as ridiculous as claiming RN's brother was living in the guest house and found her body which fell to the ground after the rope broke.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 11:10 AM
At least is not as ridiculous as claiming RN's brother was living in the guest house and found her body which fell to the ground after the rope broke.

Who in the world is RN?

SunnieRN
09-19-2011, 11:42 AM
I didnt really mean to put it on record. And what record anyway? What I'm saying is that there seems to be a double standard on opinions. iMO

Never in the history of Websleuths has a truer statement been made. I just don't happen to agree with you on who's opinions are making this double standard evident.

I think she was less than sincere about why she quit her job. She obviously couldn't be taking care of JS's children full time because the children had mothers. I think she was more serious about the relationship than he was, and I think that she was frustrated that after 2 years, they weren't engaged. JMO

The article in the Daily beast, that you linked to this morning has a glowing statement from Rebecca's former boss. It speaks of her great work ethic and ability to learn. When did she say that she was caring for Jonah's children full time? I don't recall hearing or reading of her making that statement.

I agree that JS at one point must have liked RZ or he wouldn't have been sleeping with her. However, it appears that RZ wasn't happy in the relationship (if we believe the latest from her sister, which seems to contradict earlier statements the family has made). I personally believe - jmo - that JS was getting ready to break up with RZ.

It would be interesting if detectives were to check out RZ's background a little bit more. What was she doing prior to the 2-year job she quit? Where did she receive her education? Who were her friends? What was her job history like?

This is a woman who was recently divorced, had no job, and complained frequently to her sister about her relationship. Doesn't seem like she was too happy, fulfilled, or had lots of friendships going on. She certainly didn't have any friends texting or calling her in recent days, according to her phone records.

JMO

Again, you can address many of the questions you raise, by referring yourself to the Daily Beast article that you posted a link to.

And please tell me how you KNOW that Rebecca 'complained frequently' to her sister about her relationship? I hardly see a text in January as being frequent. Some links to support your opinions would be greatly appreciated.

KarenM
09-19-2011, 12:27 PM
No one knows what Rebecca was thinking the night she died. Even JS and Rebecca's sister cannot claim they know exactly what Rebecca's state of mind was that night. But regardless what she felt about her situation, the Shacknais, and her relationship with JS, if she committed suicide (be it out of guilt, desperation, hatred, revenge, attention seeking), she still had to 1. know how to tie the boating knots. 2. be able to defy the law of physics to jump from tiptoed position six inches forward, eight inches to the left, and high enough to make her center of gravity over the 37" balcony railing to fall out, all in one single attempt. See "The geometry in Rebecca’s fall"
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/14/rebecca-zahau-case-the-geometry-in-rebeccas-fall/. Val's analysis was completely based on data. No emotions. No guess work on Rebecca's state of mind. Just plain math. And his analysis showed that Rebecca's suicide was pretty much impossible.

In terms of the riddle message. Here is my theory. The killer had a co-conspirator. They had already walked through the whole process including the "suicide note", which should show Rebecca's emotional distress over Max's injury. When they talked about it, they used the third party word "she" in their discussion. When the killer was executing the plot, he scanned his brain and wrote down the notes from his memory. But out of the time contraint, the nervousness, and the panic, he forgot that he should be writing on behalf of Rebecca and replace the word "she" with "I". The message was intended to read "I saved him. Can you save me?" The killer simply made a mistake in my opinion.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 12:34 PM
No one knows what Rebecca was thinking the night she died. Even JS and Rebecca's sister cannot claim they know exactly what Rebecca's state of mind was that night. But regardless what she felt about her situation, the Shacknais, and her relationship with JS, if she committed suicide (be it out of guilt, desperation, hatred, revenge, attention seeking), she still had to 1. know how to tie the boating knots. 2. be able to defy the law of physics to jump from tiptoed position six inches forward, eight inches to the left, and high enough to make her center of gravity over the 37" balcony railing to fall out, all in one single attempt. See "The geometry in Rebecca’s fall"
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/14/rebecca-zahau-case-the-geometry-in-rebeccas-fall/. Val's analysis was completely based on data. No emotions. No guess work on Rebecca's state of mind. Just plain math.

In terms of the riddle message. Here is my theory. The killer had a co-conspirator. They had already walked through the whole process including the "suicide note", which should show Rebecca's emotional distress over Max's injury. When they talked about it, they used the third party word "she" in their discussion. When the killer was executing the plot, he scanned his brain and wrote down the notes from his memory. But out of the time contraint, the nervousness, and the panic, he forgot that he should be writing on behalf of Rebecca and replace the word "she" with "I". The message was intended to read "I saved him. Can you save me?" The killer simply made a mistake in my opinion.


So we're expected to read someone was able to pull of a murder so devious they fooled police but couldn't remember to change a pronoun?

Also, the knots RZ used were slip knots. Hardly rocket science.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 12:41 PM
She was athletic, too. “She could run like a gazelle. She ran up Camelback Mountain in 32 minutes, and competed in last year’s Rock ’n’ Roll Marathon—26.2 miles—without even training for it,” says another friend.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/09/18/what-really-happened-in-the-coronado-mansion.html

If she could run like a gazelle, and was as athletic as claimed, I see no reason why she couldn't manage to commit suicide the way it was claimed.

IMO

KarenM
09-19-2011, 12:54 PM
So we're expected to read someone was able to pull of a murder so devious they fooled police but couldn't remember to change a pronoun?

Also, the knots RZ used were slip knots. Hardly rocket science.

1. Murderers (even those who almost comitted perfect murders) made stupid mistakes. Plenty murderers left their personal clothes at the scene. There was a professional killer who left his mail package at the door of the victim' house. Plus Rebecca's death was not even close to a perfect crime. If it was, you won't see 80% of people surveyed call it murder. Weren't for SDPD's suspiciously shoddy work, the case might have been resolved yesterday.

2. I am sure tying slip knots is not rocket science, if you get a chance to learn it. However, the point is, most people don't have a chance to learn it. So they don't have a clue how to tie it. The easiness to acquire a skill has nothing to do with the popularity of a skill. Changing car's transmission fluid is also not rocket science. How many people can actually do it? This "piece-of-cake" knot tying skill by someone who has boating knowledge happens not to be known by any of my friends, including engineers, doctors, and i-bankers.

SunnieRN
09-19-2011, 01:22 PM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/09/18/what-really-happened-in-the-coronado-mansion.html

If she could run like a gazelle, and was as athletic as claimed, I see no reason why she couldn't manage to commit suicide the way it was claimed.

IMO

The article also talks about her good work ethics and habits. There are actually MANY nice things about Rebecca in the article. Which is the one thing I liked about it.

No matter how well you can run, you can not defy gravity. There is not a logical way, with on one set of toe prints, from one foot, that Rebecca could have gone over the balcony that way. Remember her hands were tied behind her back and her feet were also bound. Why only toe prints from 1 foot, since they were attached? Where is the marks from the rope dragging behind Rebecca?

sdcali
09-19-2011, 01:30 PM
Stating the fact that no one knows the exact cause of MS's accident, instead of making up ridiculous stories.

BBM

I believe it's called hypothesizing...

CDS22
09-19-2011, 01:34 PM
1. Murderers (even those who almost comitted perfect murders) made stupid mistakes. Plenty murderers left their personal clothes at the scene. There was a professional killer who left his mail package at the door of the victim' house. Plus Rebecca's death was not even close to a perfect crime. If it was, you won't see 80% of people surveyed call it murder. Weren't for SDPD's suspiciously shoddy work, the case might have been resolved yesterday.

2. I am sure tying slip knots is not rocket science, if you get a chance to learn it. However, the point is, most people don't have a chance to learn it. So they don't have a clue how to tie it. The easiness to acquire a kill has nothing to do with the popularity of a skill. Changing car's transmission fluid is also not rocket science. How many people can actually do it? This "piece-of-cake" knot tying skill by someone who has boating knowledge happens not to be known by any of my friends, including engineers, doctors, and i-bankers.


Since RZ went boating with JS, I'm sure she knew how to tie a slip knot. I've been able to tie one since kindergarten.

Brit
09-19-2011, 01:50 PM
Since RZ went boating with JS, I'm sure she knew how to tie a slip knot. I've been able to tie one since kindergarten.

Did rz go boating with js? Links would be appreciated. Tia

Brit
09-19-2011, 01:58 PM
The end of the orange-red braided marine towing rope which formed a noose around Ms. Zahau's neck, was anchored using a slip knot to a leg of the bed in her room. As someone has pointed out to us, there is a measurement showing the initial imprint of the bed leg, and the distance that it was moved, allegedly as a result of the weight of Ms. Zahau's body, when she allegedly hung herself.

If the bed's leg did in fact move, it would have been dragged across the carpet, leaving a skid mark or trail in the nap of the rug. In the photo, there is no sign of such a disturbance.

This is an excerpt from the below link
http://www.examiner.com/news-analysi...her-last-hours

I posted this on another thread but thought it was worth it to post here as well. Why no drag marks on the rug?

sorrell skye
09-19-2011, 02:06 PM
Yes, could have. In order to give the article any credence whatsoever the author, at the very least, should have checked his facts. Posts here on WS is not a bimonthly published magazine written for a mass audience with a subscription circulation of 291,989 touting "experts" as it's authors. I do believe Psychology Today should be held to a higher standard than that of a crime sleuthing website posting opinions and theories, although, it is glaringly obvious that WSers are more capable at finding facts than the author of this article.JMOFWIW.

ITA, Truth!

As a poster on a true crime message board, I try my best to post accurate information, based on available facts, in order to contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. There have been times when I've misinterpreted a fact, or have overlooked a fact, and posted erroneous information. When that happens, I'm embarrassed, acknowledge my mistake, and vow to be more meticulous. I think we've all been there @ one point or another, haven't we?

On the other hand, if I were to write an article that was chock-full of misinformation & inaccuracies from start to finish, and publish that article in a nationally circulated periodical that is purportedly devoted to publishing factual information, I think I'd be well-advised to switch to publishing fantasy stories for the tabloids.

Another thing: where was the editor when this piece went to press? Did the Ph.D title give the author carte blanche to write whatever he wished, with no regard for fact-checking? It would appear so, IMO.

deanna82437
09-19-2011, 02:23 PM
Who in the world is RN?

Rebecca Zahau Napela

defense101
09-19-2011, 02:39 PM
Who in the world is RN? It was RZ's married name that she was first referred to when this happened Nalepa until it was found out that she had claimed her maiden name in court in the end of June and from then on was referred to as RZ.

Sorry deanna I should have read further lol

KarenM
09-19-2011, 03:56 PM
Since RZ went boating with JS, I'm sure she knew how to tie a slip knot. I've been able to tie one since kindergarten.

You might be able to fly an airplane too. But it only says you are not like most people.

Most people who go boating occasionally with a friend still don't know how to tie the boating knots. Several TV anchors (Dr. Drew for one example) openly commented they had no idea how to tie the knots shown in SDPD's video demonstration. I suppose at least some of these TV anchors went boating before.

RZ's sister said that they did not grow up around water. They learned how to swim when they became adults. Her assertion that Rebecca would not know how to tie boating knots does not sound unreasonable.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 04:05 PM
You might be able to fly an airplane too. But it only says you are not like most people.

Most people who go boating occasionally with a friend still don't know how to tie the boating knots. Several TV anchors (Dr. Drew for one example) openly commented they had no idea how to tie the knots shown in SDPD's video demonstration. I suppose at least some of these TV anchors went boating before.

RZ's sister said that they did not grow up around water. They learned how to swim when they became adults. Her assertion that Rebecca would not know how to tie boating knots does not sound unreasonable.

I'll bet she also maintains her sister never would have shoplifted either.

KarenM
09-19-2011, 04:29 PM
I'll bet she also maintains her sister never would have shoplifted either.

I don't think Rebecca's shoplifting has anything to do with her death, suicide or homicide. But I am curious for one thing. Didn't JS and DS check Rebecca's background? I heard DS was especially cautious as to who would be around her son. Most people check background on nannies and house managers. Rebecca of course was not a household staff. But maybe they didn't think shoplifting was too big a deal.

CDS22
09-19-2011, 04:38 PM
I don't think Rebecca's shoplifting has anything to do with her death, suicide or homicide. But I am curious for one thing. Didn't JS and DS check Rebecca's background? I heard DS was especially cautious as to who would be around her son. Most people check background on nannies and house managers. Rebecca of course was not a household staff. But maybe they didn't think shoplifting was too big a deal.

People do things that their family never thinks that they would. Like shoplifting. Like suicide.

jjenny
09-19-2011, 08:16 PM
I don't think Rebecca's shoplifting has anything to do with her death, suicide or homicide. But I am curious for one thing. Didn't JS and DS check Rebecca's background? I heard DS was especially cautious as to who would be around her son. Most people check background on nannies and house managers. Rebecca of course was not a household staff. But maybe they didn't think shoplifting was too big a deal.

According to the poster who was verified as having inside info, they did check RN's background.

obody
09-21-2011, 08:19 PM
FWIW most people who knit or crochet know how to tie a slip knot, even if they don't know what it's called.

My DH and his family use slip knots to tie produce bags at the grocery store.

MyBelle
09-21-2011, 08:28 PM
People do things that their family never thinks that they would. Like shoplifting. Like suicide.

And I think anyone in law enforcement understands and accepts that families often react that way.

JMO

CDS22
09-21-2011, 08:53 PM
Homicidal hanging is very rare and the generally the victim needs to be unconscious or intoxicated for such an act to occur.

http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/hanging-signs

From the AR we know that RZ was not intoxicated and that they didn't think the bumps on her head were enough to render her unconcious or that serious.

CDS22
09-21-2011, 09:03 PM
From the same link:

The victim may use a fixed knot or a slip knot, the latter being particularly efficient at compressing the airways and blood vessels because it tightens so quickly under gravity.

RZ used slip knots.

CDS22
09-21-2011, 09:04 PM
High hangings are more likely to cause death by vagal inhibition, owing to the sudden pressure on the neck. The victim tends to be pale in such cases. A low hanging is more likely to lead to asphyxia and there may be some facial congestion and a purple protruding tongue.

Reason why RZ's tongue wasn't protruding when she was found.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 03:01 AM
One study found that Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders are significantly less likely than Caucasians to mention their mental health concerns to:
o
a friend or relative (12% vs. 25%),
o
a mental health professional (4% vs. 26%),
o
or a physician (2% vs. 13%).8

Asian Americans do not access mental health treatment as much as other racial/ethnic groups do, perhaps due to strong stigma related to mental illness. Emotional problems are viewed as shameful and distressing and this may limit help-seeking behaviors. Asian Americans also tend to rely on family to handle problems.9

Asian American and Pacific Islanders are concerned about negatively affecting their social network which keeps them from seeking help.10
Ethnic and Cultural Considerations

For nearly half of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, access to the mental health care system is limited due to their lack of English proficiency and to a shortage of providers with appropriate language skills.11
This report was funded by the Suicide Prevention Resource Center, which is supported by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
(SAMHSA), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (Grant No. 1 U79SM55029-01).

Many Asian American and Pacific Islander cultures view the psychological and physical as highly interconnected, unlike the common view in Western cultures. Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders may be more likely to express emotional distress through physical problems and to believe that physical problems cause emotional disturbances.12

http://www.sprc.org/library/asian.pi.facts.pdf

rosemary
09-22-2011, 08:24 AM
High hangings are more likely to cause death by vagal inhibition, owing to the sudden pressure on the neck. The victim tends to be pale in such cases. A low hanging is more likely to lead to asphyxia and there may be some facial congestion and a purple protruding tongue.

Reason why RZ's tongue wasn't protruding when she was found.

but according to the autopsy report, her face was not pale, it was congested.

rosemary
09-22-2011, 09:06 AM
One study found that Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders are significantly less likely than Caucasians to mention their mental health concerns to:
o
a friend or relative (12% vs. 25%),
o
a mental health professional (4% vs. 26%),
o
or a physician (2% vs. 13%).8

Asian Americans do not access mental health treatment as much as other racial/ethnic groups do, perhaps due to strong stigma related to mental illness. Emotional problems are viewed as shameful and distressing and this may limit help-seeking behaviors. Asian Americans also tend to rely on family to handle problems.9

Asian American and Pacific Islanders are concerned about negatively affecting their social network which keeps them from seeking help.10
Ethnic and Cultural Considerations

For nearly half of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, access to the mental health care system is limited due to their lack of English proficiency and to a shortage of providers with appropriate language skills.11
This report was funded by the Suicide Prevention Resource Center, which is supported by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
(SAMHSA), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (Grant No. 1 U79SM55029-01).

Many Asian American and Pacific Islander cultures view the psychological and physical as highly interconnected, unlike the common view in Western cultures. Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders may be more likely to express emotional distress through physical problems and to believe that physical problems cause emotional disturbances.12

http://www.sprc.org/library/asian.pi.facts.pdf

But according to another study:

Overall rates for completed suicide among Asian Americans have reflected lower or similar rates compared with other ethnic groups. According to the Centers for Disease Control, in 2005 the age-adjusted rate for completed suicide among Asian Americans of all age groups was 5.24 deaths per 100,000. While this rate is lower than that of White Non-Hispanics (12.93 per 100,00), it is similar to the rates for Black Non-Hispanics (5.37 per 100,00) and Hispanics (5.60 per 100,000) (Centers for Disease Control, 2005).

Shiang et al. (1997) also found that the national rate for completed suicide among all Asian American women was 3.4 per 100,000, but the rates were highest (29.8 per 100,000) for Asian women 85 years and older. Shiang's study also found that completed suicide rates were highest among Asian American men between the ages of 75-84 years old (42.1 per 100,000), over four times the rate for Asian American men overall (8.8 per 100,000).

While the overall lifetime percentages for ideation (8.6%) and attempt (2.5%) among Asian Americans are lower than national lifetime estimates (13.5% and 4.6%, respectively) (Kessler, 1999), a very different finding is evident when Asian Americans are disaggregated by sex and nativity. US-born Asian American women (15.9%) have much higher percentage for ideation than the national estimates.
Accordingly, U.S. born women are the group that appears to be most at-risk for suicidal behaviors. While immigrant men and women appear to be less at-risk for suicidal behaviors than their US-born counterparts,


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2756301/?tool=pubmed

rosemary
09-22-2011, 09:11 AM
http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/hanging-signs

From the AR we know that RZ was not intoxicated and that they didn't think the bumps on her head were enough to render her unconcious or that serious.

According to Dr. Cyril Wecht:

"A blow or blows sufficient to produce subgaleal, subscalpular hemorrhage could be sufficient for someone to be knocked out, just temporarily, not to produce any damage to the brain, not to cause any prolonged unconsciousness; but one cannot say,"

CDS22
09-22-2011, 12:25 PM
According to Dr. Cyril Wecht:

Cyril Wecht is paid by the family to contest the suicide report.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 12:28 PM
But according to another study:

Overall rates for completed suicide among Asian Americans have reflected lower or similar rates compared with other ethnic groups. According to the Centers for Disease Control, in 2005 the age-adjusted rate for completed suicide among Asian Americans of all age groups was 5.24 deaths per 100,000. While this rate is lower than that of White Non-Hispanics (12.93 per 100,00), it is similar to the rates for Black Non-Hispanics (5.37 per 100,00) and Hispanics (5.60 per 100,000) (Centers for Disease Control, 2005).

Shiang et al. (1997) also found that the national rate for completed suicide among all Asian American women was 3.4 per 100,000, but the rates were highest (29.8 per 100,000) for Asian women 85 years and older. Shiang's study also found that completed suicide rates were highest among Asian American men between the ages of 75-84 years old (42.1 per 100,000), over four times the rate for Asian American men overall (8.8 per 100,000).

While the overall lifetime percentages for ideation (8.6%) and attempt (2.5%) among Asian Americans are lower than national lifetime estimates (13.5% and 4.6%, respectively) (Kessler, 1999), a very different finding is evident when Asian Americans are disaggregated by sex and nativity. US-born Asian American women (15.9%) have much higher percentage for ideation than the national estimates.
Accordingly, U.S. born women are the group that appears to be most at-risk for suicidal behaviors. While immigrant men and women appear to be less at-risk for suicidal behaviors than their US-born counterparts,


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2756301/?tool=pubmed

Thank you for those statistics, but the ones I posted were not about how many American-born Asians commit suicide, but about how many Asian-born Americans (which is what RZ was) feel they can't discuss depression and mental health issues with others, and that they often hide depression and suicidal feelings from their families. That is what I believe RZ did. (Opinion alert for the last sentence).

stilettos
09-22-2011, 12:42 PM
Cyril Wecht is paid by the family to contest the suicide report.

I may be wrong...but I believe that Cyril Wecht gave his opinion in the media about the autopsy report findings before the family retained him.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 12:49 PM
I may be wrong...but I believe that Cyril Wecht gave his opinion in the media about the autopsy report findings before the family retained him.

<modsnip>this says otherwise:

But Zahau's relatives don't believe she killed herself and want the case reopened. They have hired an attorney who retained famed forensics expert Dr. Cyril Wecht to look over the reports.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/health/questions-raised-rebecca-zahaus-suicide

He has also said that he hasn't ruled out suicide. From the same article:

"I'm not saying this is a homicide," Wecht told the New York Daily News. "I don't want to be premature or make wild criticisms."

<modsnip>.

thinkingstraight
09-22-2011, 12:51 PM
Lawyers can hire an expert to fit their position. Experts are a dime a dozen in that regard.

CDS22
09-22-2011, 01:24 PM
Lawyers can hire an expert to fit their position. Experts are a dime a dozen in that regard.

Plus other experts who are not being paid have come out in support of the police findings.

elementry
09-22-2011, 01:38 PM
People do things that their family never thinks that they would. Like shoplifting. Like suicide.

Would you also posit that people sometimes Murder too, and the act might surprise even those who know them? Just taking the flip-side of your supposition.......

CDS22
09-22-2011, 01:45 PM
Would you also posit that people sometimes Murder too, and the act might surprise even those who know them? Just taking the flip-side of your supposition.......

This thread is for why RZ's death could be suicide, not for debates about why it is murder. There is another thread for that purpose.

elementry
09-22-2011, 01:52 PM
This thread is for why RZ's death could be suicide, not for debates about why it is murder. There is another thread for that purpose.

<modsnip>. The question had to do with your supposition regarding suicides, and whether there is a larger supposition pertaining to other surprising actions. It's not claiming murder, but rather testing the suicide assumption. I may misunderstand this thread: it's only for pro-suicide arguments, and not to test those arguments? Which thread should I respond to your point on in that case?

CDS22
09-22-2011, 02:03 PM
< mod snip >

The single largest psychological factor found in approximately 1/3 of shoplifters studied is “depression”. This helps to explain why so many individuals steal from stores on their birthday and/or around holiday times.

http://www.shopliftingprevention.org/whatnaspoffers/nrc/psychologicalstudies.htm

And a great link on depression and suicide:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/805459-overview

Salem
09-22-2011, 02:37 PM
<modsnip>. The question had to do with your supposition regarding suicides, and whether there is a larger supposition pertaining to other surprising actions. It's not claiming murder, but rather testing the suicide assumption. I may misunderstand this thread: it's only for pro-suicide arguments, and not to test those arguments? Which thread should I respond to your point on in that case?

Hi elementry - I'm going to answer this question. This thread is for those who believe that RN committed suicide. We have a thread for those who believe it was a murder and there are a couple of threads where the discussion bounces back and forth. But this thread is specially for stating why you think it was a suicide and something as simple as "it is my gut feeling" will stand.

Hope that helps and send me a pm if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Salem

Salem
09-22-2011, 02:39 PM
It was RZ's married name that she was first referred to when this happened Nalepa until it was found out that she had claimed her maiden name in court in the end of June and from then on was referred to as RZ.

Sorry deanna I should have read further lol

Well thank you for this explanation - I think I missed this somewhere because I continue to refer to Rebecca as RN. I will now change my ways and refer to her as RZ.

Thanks!

Salem

elementry
09-22-2011, 04:56 PM
Hi elementry - I'm going to answer this question. This thread is for those who believe that RN committed suicide. We have a thread for those who believe it was a murder and there are a couple of threads where the discussion bounces back and forth. But this thread is specially for stating why you think it was a suicide and something as simple as "it is my gut feeling" will stand.

Hope that helps and send me a pm if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Salem

Thanks Salem for the clarification. I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes as far as forum rules and stuff. I'm interested in the suicide theory of the case so found myself on this thread. Didn't realize this thread was not for debate but confirmation I guess. Cool with me.

rosemary
09-23-2011, 02:57 AM
Thank you for those statistics, but the ones I posted were not about how many American-born Asians commit suicide, but about how many Asian-born Americans (which is what RZ was) feel they can't discuss depression and mental health issues with others, and that they often hide depression and suicidal feelings from their families. That is what I believe RZ did. (Opinion alert for the last sentence).

but statistically speaking, she would have been less at risk for suicide compared to other americans, since she was a foreign born asian american christian woman in her early 30's, who was able to achieve success in her professional career. even if rebecca had not been able to express her feelings and thoughts about depression and suicide to her family, she would have found other ways to look for help. in another study done, it was discovered that asian americans who were depressed often went to their doctors instead and complained of physical aches and pains rather than to seek help for their depression or mental problems. was it reported that rebecca had been going often to the doctor prior to her death complaining of any aches and pains she might have felt she was suffering from? what evidence is there that rebecca had not opened up about any feelings of depression to her family? i have also read an article where it says that her family were aware of the problems she had been having relating to some of Jonah's family members, and she had even discussed wanting to get a break away from the relationship. if rebecca could talk about intimate problems like that, why wouldn't she have been able to talk about feeling depressed or given any hints of feeling suicidal to her sister prior to her death?

CDS22
09-23-2011, 11:13 AM
but statistically speaking, she would have been less at risk for suicide compared to other americans, since she was a foreign born asian american christian woman in her early 30's, who was able to achieve success in her professional career. even if rebecca had not been able to express her feelings and thoughts about depression and suicide to her family, she would have found other ways to look for help. in another study done, it was discovered that asian americans who were depressed often went to their doctors instead and complained of physical aches and pains rather than to seek help for their depression or mental problems. was it reported that rebecca had been going often to the doctor prior to her death complaining of any aches and pains she might have felt she was suffering from? what evidence is there that rebecca had not opened up about any feelings of depression to her family? i have also read an article where it says that her family were aware of the problems she had been having relating to some of Jonah's family members, and she had even discussed wanting to get a break away from the relationship. if rebecca could talk about intimate problems like that, why wouldn't she have been able to talk about feeling depressed or given any hints of feeling suicidal to her sister prior to her death?

Not necessarily, because suicide is more prevalent in Asian countries than it is in North America. 60% of the world's suicides happen in Asian countries:

http://www.spiorg.org/suicide_asia.html

CDS22
09-23-2011, 11:40 AM
The sign on the door is written in broken English:

http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-questions-than-answers-justice.html

"She save him, can he save her", according to the Zahau family's attorney.

English was not RZ's first language.

thinkingstraight
09-23-2011, 11:43 AM
Is that why LE didnt want to release the actual writing? Because it would embarrass her? Why do you think they didn't want to show us?

CDS22
09-23-2011, 11:48 AM
Is that why LE didnt want to release the actual writing? Because it would embarrass her? Why do you think they didn't want to show us?

I don't know, but I think they have more information they're not sharing with us.

JMO

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 11:52 AM
Is that why LE didnt want to release the actual writing? Because it would embarrass her? Why do you think they didn't want to show us?

My best guess is probably because it was considered a private communication. Stuff that the public has a right to know is shared. The public doesn't have the need to know actual content of a private message found in the residence of a suicide victim.

JMO

rosemary
09-23-2011, 01:01 PM
Not necessarily, because suicide is more prevalent in Asian countries than it is in North America. 60% of the world's suicides happen in Asian countries:

http://www.spiorg.org/suicide_asia.html

that doesn't apply to Rebecca's case since she resided in America. The study I posted has shown that Asian Americans commit suicide less frequently than other Americans, although within this grouping, US born Asian American females in college and Asian American women aged 65 and above are the ones most at risk for suicide.

CDS22
09-23-2011, 02:25 PM
that doesn't apply to Rebecca's case since she resided in America. The study I posted has shown that Asian Americans commit suicide less frequently than other Americans, although within this grouping, US born Asian American females in college and Asian American women aged 65 and above are the ones most at risk for suicide.

RZ spent more than 2/3 of her life in a country other than the US.

rosemary
09-23-2011, 02:50 PM
RZ spent more than 2/3 of her life in a country other than the US.

so what's your point? what does it matter if she had spent more than 2/3 of her life in a country other than the US? she was already settled in America along with her family prior to her death. The study I posted clearly stated that foreign born Asian Americans are less likely to commit suicide than other groups. And Rebecca didn't fall into the two age groups of Asian American females that are most at risk for suicide. She was also a Christian who had strong family support, which, statistically speaking, would have made her less likely to commit suicide.

CDS22
09-23-2011, 03:38 PM
so what's your point? what does it matter if she had spent more than 2/3 of her life in a country other than the US? she was already settled in America along with her family prior to her death. The study I posted clearly stated that foreign born Asian Americans are less likely to commit suicide than other groups. And Rebecca didn't fall into the two age groups of Asian American females that are most at risk for suicide. She was also a Christian who had strong family support, which, statistically speaking, would have made her less likely to commit suicide.

Relocating somewhere doesn't wipe out more than 2/3 of your life.

Also, people of all faiths commit suicide all the time.

gemvt
09-27-2011, 06:21 PM
Here's why I think it might be suicide: Jonah called Rebecca and left the voice mail at 12:30 AM. He was letting her know that the police would be visiting the next day and were going to open a homicide investigation against her, XZ, or both. He was probably cruel and accusatory and threatening, and Rebecca hysterically deleted the message either in error or to make it go away as best she could. She then decided that she would never be able to win against Jonah's money and power and went about preparing to kill herself. However, she may have in her highly emotional state determined that she could make it look like a murder. That's why there are so many questionable aspects, because Rebecca intentionally but haphazardly planted them there for all to see. She may have figured that Adam would be suspect number 1 since he was there.

I just think that with the evidence as it stands it was not murder. No signs of a struggle, no defensive wounds, no concrete DNA placing someone else there...unless and until information comes out about these being present I am convinced it was a suicide done in a highly emotional, destructive state. I am not accusing Rebecca or XZ or anyone of murdering Max - I have my questions about that incident as well, but as with Rebecca's death, the evidence as it stands leads me to agree with the findings of LE.

MOO

greenpalm
09-27-2011, 06:44 PM
Here's why I think it might be suicide: Jonah called Rebecca and left the voice mail at 12:30 AM. He was letting her know that the police would be visiting the next day and were going to open a homicide investigation against her, XZ, or both. He was probably cruel and accusatory and threatening, and Rebecca hysterically deleted the message either in error or to make it go away as best she could. She then decided that she would never be able to win against Jonah's money and power and went about preparing to kill herself. However, she may have in her highly emotional state determined that she could make it look like a murder. That's why there are so many questionable aspects, because Rebecca intentionally but haphazardly planted them there for all to see. She may have figured that Adam would be suspect number 1 since he was there.

I just think that with the evidence as it stands it was not murder. No signs of a struggle, no defensive wounds, no concrete DNA placing someone else there...unless and until information comes out about these being present I am convinced it was a suicide done in a highly emotional, destructive state. I am not accusing Rebecca or XZ or anyone of murdering Max - I have my questions about that incident as well, but as with Rebecca's death, the evidence as it stands leads me to agree with the findings of LE.

MOO

It's easy to imagine how a battle against JS would be a losing one. He is a wealthy man, and money is power. However… Rebecca was less than 16 miles from the Mexican border. If she was afraid she could never win against him, why not just run away?

driving directions from Coronado to Tijuana. (http://g.co/maps/88kas)

jjenny
09-27-2011, 07:34 PM
It's easy to imagine how a battle against JS would be a losing one. He is a wealthy man, and money is power. However… Rebecca was less than 16 miles from the Mexican border. If she was afraid she could never win against him, why not just run away?

driving directions from Coronado to Tijuana. (http://g.co/maps/88kas)

There is also a new article in Patch. Has an interview with RN's sister. At some point RN and sister discussed RN working in Germany with sister, but RN got busy with JS and his family and never moved to Germany. So RN certainly had options even if JS decided to toss her out. Which JS himself hasn't claimed, by the way.
"Horwath opened a home decorating shop near her Hamburg home five months ago. She said Zahau was delighted by the venture and wanted to partner up, selling the wares stateside while her sister worked in Germany. Yet she became busy with her boyfriend's family, Horwath said, and couldn't follow through."
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/zahau-family-presses-for-new-probe-death-suicide-hanging-shacknai-mansion

rosemary
09-28-2011, 12:43 AM
Relocating somewhere doesn't wipe out more than 2/3 of your life.

Also, people of all faiths commit suicide all the time.

but the study I posted says that Asians who immigrate to America are less at risk for suicide than Asians who are born in America. I don't know why you keep insisting on the 2/3 of her life, when the study says or suggests that Asian immigrants seem to be able to cope more with life pressures than their children born in America. The group most at risk for suicide are US born Asian American females in college, and the study also mentioned that the longer a female Asian immigrant stayed in the US, the more at risk she is for suicide, which accounts for the high risk suicide rate for older Asian American women (aged 65 years and above). And yes, people of all faiths do commit suicide, but statistically speaking, the stronger a person's belief in their faith, the less likely they are to commit suicide unless they are mentally ill. Read any suicide literature out there, it mentions that religion can play a protective factor when it comes to committing suicide.

rosemary
09-28-2011, 12:57 AM
There is also a new article in Patch. Has an interview with RN's sister. At some point RN and sister discussed RN working in Germany with sister, but RN got busy with JS and his family and never moved to Germany. So RN certainly had options even if JS decided to toss her out. Which JS himself hasn't claimed, by the way.
"Horwath opened a home decorating shop near her Hamburg home five months ago. She said Zahau was delighted by the venture and wanted to partner up, selling the wares stateside while her sister worked in Germany. Yet she became busy with her boyfriend's family, Horwath said, and couldn't follow through."
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/zahau-family-presses-for-new-probe-death-suicide-hanging-shacknai-mansion

Based on what I've read about Jonah Shacknai, as well as the info provided by an insider here, it seems to me that he is a controlling man. Maybe he used his power and wealth to make Rebecca dependent on him, and to make her follow his orders and service his needs, so that she wasn't able to break free from him like she may have wanted when they were beginning to have problems. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that issues of power and control have occurred in relationships where the man is more richer and more powerful than the woman.

CuriousGeorgia
10-04-2012, 07:56 PM
Thought I would post on this thread, where those of us that believe the SDSO was correct with their determination of suicide in the Rebecca Zahau case. Now that Dina Shacknai is questioning what happened to Max, and if Rebecca or her sister were involved, seems like this is the place we should be discussing that, since there are so many threads devoted to the "murder" theory.

Just wondering people's thoughts on whether or not Max's accident played a role in Rebecca's suicide, and if so, what was her motive for killing herself?

katydid23
10-04-2012, 09:03 PM
Thought I would post on this thread, where those of us that believe the SDSO was correct with their determination of suicide in the Rebecca Zahau case. Now that Dina Shacknai is questioning what happened to Max, and if Rebecca or her sister were involved, seems like this is the place we should be discussing that, since there are so many threads devoted to the "murder" theory.

Just wondering people's thoughts on whether or not Max's accident played a role in Rebecca's suicide, and if so, what was her motive for killing herself?

My theory is that a few things happened that made RZ feel too depressed and angry at Jonah to continue on with her life. And I think she wanted revenge upon him as well.
My theory is that the 13 yr old girl, whom she sometimes referred to as her daughter, was somehow involved in the incident. There are weird things like about them being on the way to the beach, but the girl is in the shower when it happened. Pretty convenient. And she told odd things to the dispatcher and about the incident--like Maxie said ' Ocean' before he died. I don't believe he was able to say anything after that horrific fall. And she had injuries from the glass that needed treatment, because supposedly she was cleaning up the mess. Why would she be charged with cleaning up a bloody, glass shard filled accident scene? Don't they have help? And she was ushered out of there on the next plane out.

I think that RZ was in an impossible position, trying to cover for her younger relative and still trying to stay with her fiance. But she soon reallsed that she was getting the cold shoulder, not being allowed into the hospital, and Jonah staying away from her.

I think he called her and broke off their relationship and spoke in some ugly ways to her that night.So she decided to stage a murder scene to make his life as miserable as hers was. jmo

freespeech
10-05-2012, 02:01 PM
Based on what I've read about Jonah Shacknai, as well as the info provided by an insider here, it seems to me that he is a controlling man. Maybe he used his power and wealth to make Rebecca dependent on him, and to make her follow his orders and service his needs, so that she wasn't able to break free from him like she may have wanted when they were beginning to have problems. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that issues of power and control have occurred in relationships where the man is more richer and more powerful than the woman.

What you say is true but i also see an independent side of Rebecca.

Mary stated in MSM that..."By this summer, it was coming to a crunch for Rebecca. “We talked about it; that if the teenaged kids’ behavior doesn’t improve she was considering telling Jonah at the end of this summer that she…needed to have some time to herself.

“I don’t know if she ended up telling him or not.”

"For somebody that he was going to marry, it really surprised me that he didn’t even have one good thing to say about my sister. Though she said marriage was not being discussed at this point.”

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2...rebecca-zahau/

Also, though she went into the relationship with very little materially and would leave that way she wasn't even sure how he felt about her. Imo, i don't see that she knew for sure the relationship was going anywhere. He hadn't proposed and on the plus side she had a supportive and loving family. Also she appeared to helpful and nice according to the MSM articles so I'm assuming she wasn't a person who was being eaten alive by greed and envy so why would she kill herself. It makes no sense to me given the information available.

MyBelle
10-05-2012, 02:20 PM
What you say is true but i also see an independent side of Rebecca.

Mary stated in MSM that..."By this summer, it was coming to a crunch for Rebecca. “We talked about it; that if the teenaged kids’ behavior doesn’t improve she was considering telling Jonah at the end of this summer that she…needed to have some time to herself.

“I don’t know if she ended up telling him or not.”

"For somebody that he was going to marry, it really surprised me that he didn’t even have one good thing to say about my sister. Though she said marriage was not being discussed at this point.”

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2...rebecca-zahau/

Also, though she went into the relationship with very little materially and would leave that way she wasn't even sure how he felt about her. Imo, i don't see that she knew for sure the relationship was going anywhere. He hadn't proposed and on the plus side she had a supportive and loving family. Also she appeared to helpful and nice according to the MSM articles so I'm assuming she wasn't a person who was being eaten alive by greed and envy so why would she kill herself. It makes no sense to me given the information available.

The sister doesn't know JS's thought-process at the time but it would not be surprising if his feelings for RZ changed dramatically after Max's injury even if her feelings for JS did not change. It certainly would not be the first suicide resulting from a broken relationship.

JMO

CuriousGeorgia
10-05-2012, 02:44 PM
My theory is that a few things happened that made RZ feel too depressed and angry at Jonah to continue on with her life. And I think she wanted revenge upon him as well.
My theory is that the 13 yr old girl, whom she sometimes referred to as her daughter, was somehow involved in the incident. There are weird things like about them being on the way to the beach, but the girl is in the shower when it happened. Pretty convenient. And she told odd things to the dispatcher and about the incident--like Maxie said ' Ocean' before he died. I don't believe he was able to say anything after that horrific fall. And she had injuries from the glass that needed treatment, because supposedly she was cleaning up the mess. Why would she be charged with cleaning up a bloody, glass shard filled accident scene? Don't they have help? And she was ushered out of there on the next plane out.

I think that RZ was in an impossible position, trying to cover for her younger relative and still trying to stay with her fiance. But she soon reallsed that she was getting the cold shoulder, not being allowed into the hospital, and Jonah staying away from her.

I think he called her and broke off their relationship and spoke in some ugly ways to her that night.So she decided to stage a murder scene to make his life as miserable as hers was. jmo


BBM

Katydid23, I totally agree that Rebecca was sending Jonah a huge message, and that she wanted to punish both Jonah and Dina. I think the last message was him telling her that she would have to speak to CPS, and that the accident didn't seem like it happened the way she said. I think she was extremely angry that Jonah was standing by Max, not her.

I also find many things suspicious about the 13 year old:

- First she was "washing her hair", and that changed to "taking a shower", all before they were going to spend a day at the beach. Why would she take a shower or wash her hair if she were going to the beach?

- Why did X call 911? Why would RZ put a teen on the phone for such an important call?

- Why would RZ call her sister before she called Jonah after Max's accident? Was MZ helping her come up with a story?

- It seems like she would get glass in her hand, not in her leg, if she got the injury while cleaning the glass. The injury was deep enough to require stitches. How did that happen if she was just picking up glass?

- Why was she rushed home immediately instead of keeping her follow-up appointment at the Clinic? Wouldn't she and Mary have wanted her to stay to be with Rebecca during this difficult time?

- Why did she and Rebecca go shopping? What did they purchase? It seems very odd to me that she would take her sister shopping like that while Max was in the ICU. Did anyone see them? What did they purchase? What was their mood? Jovial? Sad?

- Why did Mary take out the stitches instead of taking the 13 year old to a Doctor for a follow-up and to have the stitches removed?

- Why has the Zahau family allowed the rumors about GS and ES to spread and flourish? IMO, X would have know the night before (Sunday night) that GS and ES were leaving around 7 in the morning. She had just gotten there on Sunday. She and GS and ES would have spent some time together. Both she and RZ would have known the day before what time the other teens were leaving on Sunday. By not clearing this up, have they been trying to provide a smoke screen to cover up real teen involved?

- Why have the Zahaus been so reluctant to even state that X was there? Seems like they've tried to keep it a secret, IMO.


To me, there are so many things that prove Rebecca killed herself. I really have no doubt about that at all. But I do wonder WHY. There could be many reasons, but so far, as Mary stated, I don't see Rebecca being overly upset about Max. I find how she hung herself to be full of anger and revenge. Did she hate Dina that much, as some have claimed? And when Jonah was questioning what really happened, did Rebecca take that as some sort of betrayal on his part?

That is what is fascinating about this case. There are so many reasons why she would have done what she did. But unless the messages that she sent and received that day are released, I don' think we will ever know what she was truly thinking. IMO, the texts and calls between her and Jonah tell the tale.

MyBelle
10-05-2012, 02:59 PM
BBM

Katydid23, I totally agree that Rebecca was sending Jonah a huge message, and that she wanted to punish both Jonah and Dina. I think the last message was him telling her that she would have to speak to CPS, and that the accident didn't seem like it happened the way she said. I think she was extremely angry that Jonah was standing by Max, not her.

I also find many things suspicious about the 13 year old:

- First she was "washing her hair", and that changed to "taking a shower", all before they were going to spend a day at the beach. Why would she take a shower or wash her hair if she were going to the beach?

- Why did X call 911? Why would RZ put a teen on the phone for such an important call?

- Why would RZ call her sister before she called Jonah after Max's accident? Was MZ helping her come up with a story?

- It seems like she would get glass in her hand, not in her leg, if she got the injury while cleaning the glass. The injury was deep enough to require stitches. How did that happen if she was just picking up glass?

- Why was she rushed home immediately instead of keeping her follow-up appointment at the Clinic? Wouldn't she and Mary have wanted her to stay to be with Rebecca during this difficult time?

- Why did she and Rebecca go shopping? What did they purchase? It seems very odd to me that she would take her sister shopping like that while Max was in the ICU. Did anyone see them? What did they purchase? What was their mood? Jovial? Sad?

- Why did Mary take out the stitches instead of taking the 13 year old to a Doctor for a follow-up and to have the stitches removed?

- Why has the Zahau family allowed the rumors about GS and ES to spread and flourish? IMO, X would have know the night before (Sunday night) that GS and ES were leaving around 7 in the morning. She had just gotten there on Sunday. She and GS and ES would have spent some time together. Both she and RZ would have known the day before what time the other teens were leaving on Sunday. By not clearing this up, have they been trying to provide a smoke screen to cover up real teen involved?

- Why have the Zahaus been so reluctant to even state that X was there? Seems like they've tried to keep it a secret, IMO.


To me, there are so many things that prove Rebecca killed herself. I really have no doubt about that at all. But I do wonder WHY. There could be many reasons, but so far, as Mary stated, I don't see Rebecca being overly upset about Max. I find how she hung herself to be full of anger and revenge. Did she hate Dina that much, as some have claimed? And when Jonah was questioning what really happened, did Rebecca take that as some sort of betrayal on his part?

That is what is fascinating about this case. There are so many reasons why she would have done what she did. But unless the messages that she sent and received that day are released, I don' think we will ever know what she was truly thinking. IMO, the texts and calls between her and Jonah tell the tale.

Good points. I've always held the opinion that the younger sister made the 9-1-1 call because RZ was supposedly giving CPR. When did she get cut by the glass? Was it before 911 was called or after MS was taken to the hospital?

freespeech
10-05-2012, 03:08 PM
Hi Freespeach, this thread is for those that believe Rebecca committed suicide. I think this belongs on another thread? Could you move it to a more appropriate thread? Thanks!

Ok, i see that now. How do i move it? i didn't notice at first because used the option at the bottom of the page to go to the previous thread..then read Gyspychild's comment and responded. I am glad to move it as soon as I figure out how.

CuriousGeorgia
10-05-2012, 03:23 PM
Good points. I've always held the opinion that the younger sister made the 9-1-1 call because RZ was supposedly giving CPR. When did she get cut by the glass? Was it before 911 was called or after MS was taken to the hospital?

I believe the story has been that she cut it afterwards, but how do we know that for sure? Do we know what time Rebecca took her to get the stitches? I'm not sure if we are allowed to discuss whether or not CPR was given, but RZ did say different things to different people about that.

Betty P
10-05-2012, 03:52 PM
I believe the story has been that she cut it afterwards, but how do we know that for sure? Do we know what time Rebecca took her to get the stitches? I'm not sure if we are allowed to discuss whether or not CPR was given, but RZ did say different things to different people about that.

According to the police report, the Coronado PD gave both Rebecca and her sister a ride to the urgent care center so she could get stitches for her cut.

CuriousGeorgia
10-05-2012, 03:58 PM
So if the police took them, it must have been around the time of Max's accident? Why would the police be there later in the day?

Mrs. Holmes
10-06-2012, 10:26 AM
I think many of these suicide theories have alot of merrit. I can defineately see a woman killing herself under these circumstances. However, when I go over the physical evidence it doesn't follow through.

It is the iron railing dust marks that do not add up. With hands tied behind her back, feet tied tightly together, t-shirt tied three times and knotted around her neck and the noose... how does she get over the railing.

With her feet tied so tightly together it is impossible for her to get any momentum going to launch herself over that railing. The momentum to go over that railing she would have to have leaped several feet away. There is one toe print near the railing. Did she leave this when she tested the length of the rope? Again with feed tied to tightly... impossible to get momentum.

Then....if she hops to the edge of the railing... to tip her centre of gravity she has to lay completely over that railing face forward. The dust marks on the railing are simply not wide enough and the marks on RZ's body do not match up. Putting all your weight on your front hips would leave bruises. That kind of movement on that railing would leave at least 12 to 15 inches of dust completely rubbed off. There are only three spots of dust rubbed off that railing all made by the rope.

If she killed herself how did she get over that railing?

And let's not forget she did this in the dark. The lights were out in the room. All of them when the police arrived.

What about the contusions on her head? Dr. Wecht states these could have resulted in her becoming unconscious. There was a very large heavy red dog bone in that room. I have held these they weight several lbs.

Then you add that to the neck damage. That is a very long drop and the neck does not show evidence of a long drop break. In fact there are TWO areas of damage on her neck. One from the t-shirt... and one from the rope?

If you believe suicide then how does she get over the railing and how does she injure her neck twice?

justice be served
10-06-2012, 11:21 AM
So if the police took them, it must have been around the time of Max's accident? Why would the police be there later in the day?

The timeline on ths forum (or used to be on this forum) doesn't indicate the police were back at the house later that day on July 11th. Where is that linked? Did i miss that somewhere?

CuriousGeorgia
10-07-2012, 03:09 PM
Hello Mrs. Holmes, since this forum is for those that believe the suicide ruling, I'm not going to answer any posts questioning that conclusion.

I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but there are plenty of other threads for those that want to discuss why they think it was not suicide and we shouldn't have to defend our position on suicide with every post. Hopefully, posters here will cover some of the questions you had at some point, so check back if you want to know our theories.

justice be served
10-07-2012, 05:21 PM
So if the police took them, it must have been around the time of Max's accident? Why would the police be there later in the day?

CG, I asked you above to simply reference a link to what you had stated about the police being back at the house later in the day of Max's accident. I hardly think that is out of line for this thread. The rules of the forum are to back up information stated as fact. You did state that as fact.

I cannot find anything that references that 'fact' anywhere. Can you please provide that info as it is outstanding otherwise.

I also believe, but will check with a mod, that challenging/discussing posts, if appropriately done, is the purpose of Websleuths. Your desire to not answer posts is certainly your prerogative as well so I don't dispute that.

CuriousGeorgia
10-07-2012, 05:48 PM
CG, I asked you above to simply reference a link to what you had stated about the police being back at the house later in the day of Max's accident. I hardly think that is out of line for this thread. The rules of the forum are to back up information stated as fact. You did state that as fact.

I cannot find anything that references that 'fact' anywhere. Can you please provide that info as it is outstanding otherwise.

I also believe, but will check with a mod, that challenging/discussing posts, if appropriately done, is the purpose of Websleuths. Your desire to not answer posts is certainly your prerogative as well so I don't dispute that.


Hi Justice be served, I was asking the question, not stating it as a fact. It was another poster that stated that. Maybe they will post a link for you.

As far as challenging posts, Salem states in post #101:

Hi elementry - I'm going to answer this question. This thread is for those who believe that RN committed suicide. We have a thread for those who believe it was a murder and there are a couple of threads where the discussion bounces back and forth. But this thread is specially for stating why you think it was a suicide and something as simple as "it is my gut feeling" will stand.

Hope that helps and send me a pm if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Salem

CuriousGeorgia
10-07-2012, 06:27 PM
While accidental hanging is rare, and homicidal hanging is even rarer, hanging is the third most common form of suicide and accounts for 16% of all male, and 13% of all female suicides. Rarely is the neck broken. In order to break a neck, a drop of six feet or more is required, which rarely happens except in execution hanging.

Hanging, whether done with rope, an electrical cord or a belt, always leaves an inverted V bruise, and is easy to tell from ligature strangulation (murder), which leaves a straight-line bruise. Hanging compresses the veins, but arterial blood flow continues, causing small bleeding sites on the lips, inside the mouth and on the eyelids.


http://www.writing-world.com/mystery/suicide.shtml

Rebecca's autopsy showed she had the V shaped bruise on her neck that shows she jumped off the balconey, imo.

CuriousGeorgia
10-07-2012, 06:28 PM
Fact: Only 15 to 25 percent of those who complete suicide leave a note. Moreover, these documents often tell us little about why the person decided to take his or her own life.

https://www.oaklawn.org/files/file/Suicide.pdf

Betty P
10-07-2012, 06:30 PM
So if the police took them, it must have been around the time of Max's accident? Why would the police be there later in the day?

Conducting their investigation. While some might imply the Coronado PD closed the case immediately after Max's death, they did continue to investigate, gather evidence, etc.

If you ask why the Coronado PD drove them, all we can say is that we don't know. As you know, most details of this case have not been made public.

Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2012, 07:14 PM
While accidental hanging is rare, and homicidal hanging is even rarer, hanging is the third most common form of suicide and accounts for 16% of all male, and 13% of all female suicides. Rarely is the neck broken. In order to break a neck, a drop of six feet or more is required, which rarely happens except in execution hanging.

Hanging, whether done with rope, an electrical cord or a belt, always leaves an inverted V bruise, and is easy to tell from ligature strangulation (murder), which leaves a straight-line bruise. Hanging compresses the veins, but arterial blood flow continues, causing small bleeding sites on the lips, inside the mouth and on the eyelids.


http://www.writing-world.com/mystery/suicide.shtml

Rebecca's autopsy showed she had the V shaped bruise on her neck that shows she jumped off the balconey, imo.

There were two places of damage on her neck... one straight... done by the t-shirt... someone strangled her with it? And the V shaped bruise...that would have occured with the rope hagning.... someone threw her over the balcony to hide the strangulation..make it look like suicide?

The length of the drop was aproximately seven feet ... here is a re-enactment... this also questions the movement of the bed.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15940480/mansion-mystery-news-8-reenactment-reveals-new-questions?clienttype=printable

Dr. Wecht says the neck should have been broken in a long drop hanging..RZ's neck was not broken.

Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2012, 07:16 PM
Fact: Only 15 to 25 percent of those who complete suicide leave a note. Moreover, these documents often tell us little about why the person decided to take his or her own life.

https://www.oaklawn.org/files/file/Suicide.pdf

The painting on the door could be considered a suicide note.... and another oddity against statistics.... makes the this death more extrodinary that any kind of note was left...

Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2012, 07:18 PM
Hello Mrs. Holmes, since this forum is for those that believe the suicide ruling, I'm not going to answer any posts questioning that conclusion.

I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but there are plenty of other threads for those that want to discuss why they think it was not suicide and we shouldn't have to defend our position on suicide with every post. Hopefully, posters here will cover some of the questions you had at some point, so check back if you want to know our theories.

Just giving everyone the facts to work with.

Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2012, 07:23 PM
It is possible that RZ with hands behind her back... put her hands on the railing, then her rear end and pushed off the top of the railing.... still the marks on the railing... she was a small woman but her rear end would have left a mark on the railing... larger than the three two inch marks... that were in the railing photos..

Still can not figure out how she got over that railing on her own ... all tied up...

what do you guys think... how did she do it?

justice be served
10-07-2012, 07:26 PM
It is possible that RZ with hands behind her back... put her hands on the railing, then her rear end and pushed off the top of the railing.... still the marks on the railing... she was a small woman but her rear end would have left a mark on the railing... larger than the three two inch marks... that were in the railing photos..

Still can not figure out how she got over that railing on her own ... all tied up...

what do you guys think... how did she do it?

Maybe she launched herself off the chair which then shot across the room and became overturned. The same chair that she had been tied in earlier which left the abrasions on her back. The abrasions which could not have been caused by the plant below because her back was covered by her arms tied behind her.

Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2012, 07:29 PM
I believe the story has been that she cut it afterwards, but how do we know that for sure? Do we know what time Rebecca took her to get the stitches? I'm not sure if we are allowed to discuss whether or not CPR was given, but RZ did say different things to different people about that.

I believe the official fact is that RZ did rescue breaths. It has been a long time since I learned CPR... and how you do it has changed... I would be very concerned about doing chest compression on a small child... you can break an adults ribs doing it... let alone a small child...

http://video.about.com/childcare/How-to-Give-CPR-to-Children-Over-4.htm

Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2012, 07:35 PM
Maybe she launched herself off the chair which then shot across the room and became overturned. The same chair that she had been tied in earlier which left the abrasions on her back. The abrasions which could not have been caused by the plant below because her back was covered by her arms tied behind her.

hmmmmm that is possible.... she could have sat in the chair at one point to tie her feet and then fell backwards and scraped her back....

put the chair on the balcony and fall over.... this could explain why she did not have marks on her from the railing..... this makes it an even longer drop and more likely to break the neck... which the drop did not...

how in the world would one keep their balance... feet tied, hands tied, t-shirt around your neck choking off the air, stuffed in your mouth... and in the dark... on top of that wicker chair? If this ever went to trial that could be one scenario.... but it just really becomes more of an oddity...

plus the longer the drop the more the bed should have move...

justice be served
10-07-2012, 07:37 PM
hmmmmm that is possible.... she could have sat in the chair at one point to tie her feet and then fell backwards and scraped her back....

put the chair on the balcony and fall over.... this could explain why she did not have marks on her from the railing..... this makes it an even longer drop and more likely to break the neck... which the drop did not...

how in the world would one keep their balance... feet tied, hands tied, t-shirt around your neck choking off the air, stuffed in your mouth... and in the dark... on top of that wicker chair? If this ever went to trial that could be one scenario.... but it just really becomes more of an oddity...

plus the longer the drop the more the bed should have move...

A full reinactment in a courtroom will probably show that there was help in her "suicide". It's simply impossible to do that alone.

Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2012, 07:38 PM
I don't know if the chair would have left marks on the dirt on the balcony though... it should have with her weight and then having kicked out and then shot back into the room...

should have left some kind of marks on the balcony floor dirt...

Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2012, 07:40 PM
I wonder if RZ tried to use the duct tape on her legs at first as a means to tie herself up... but it did not work... she pulled it apart... but the tape etc. was not in the room... did she put it all away and go and get the rope.... it would explain the remants of duct tape on her leg

Betty P
10-07-2012, 07:42 PM
It is possible that RZ with hands behind her back... put her hands on the railing, then her rear end and pushed off the top of the railing.... still the marks on the railing... she was a small woman but her rear end would have left a mark on the railing... larger than the three two inch marks... that were in the railing photos..

Still can not figure out how she got over that railing on her own ... all tied up...

what do you guys think... how did she do it?

The markings in the dust on the railing were one of the bits of evidence that made me question the suicide story. There's just no way a woman could have gotten herself over that dusty railing leaving only a couple of very small marks. IMO, those spots look like areas where the rope disturbed the dust, but not the hips/waist/abdomen of an adult woman.

justice be served
10-07-2012, 07:43 PM
I wonder if RZ tried to use the duct tape on her legs at first as a means to tie herself up... but it did not work... she pulled it apart... but the tape etc. was not in the room... did she put it all away and go and get the rope.... it would explain the remants of duct tape on her leg

She may have been a very neat person. After all, she showered presumably before killing herself. Wonder how many people do that right before they kill themselves?

Betty P
10-07-2012, 07:45 PM
hmmmmm that is possible.... she could have sat in the chair at one point to tie her feet and then fell backwards and scraped her back....

put the chair on the balcony and fall over.... this could explain why she did not have marks on her from the railing..... this makes it an even longer drop and more likely to break the neck... which the drop did not...

how in the world would one keep their balance... feet tied, hands tied, t-shirt around your neck choking off the air, stuffed in your mouth... and in the dark... on top of that wicker chair? If this ever went to trial that could be one scenario.... but it just really becomes more of an oddity...

plus the longer the drop the more the bed should have move...

Not to mention, the chair would have been discovered overturned on the balcony, not in the bedroom. Remember, the doors to the balcony were closed, only opened later by LE.

justice be served
10-07-2012, 07:48 PM
Not to mention, the chair would have been discovered overturned on the balcony, not in the bedroom. Remember, the doors to the balcony were closed, only opened later by LE.

Good point, Betty P. I wonder why she would have closed the doors first before somehow making it over the rail? But that is only trumped by why she would have done it all in the dark. Especially the note she wrote on the door. In the dark would have been tough. Too bad it hasn't been shown. Maybe it was sloppily written.

Mrs. Holmes
10-07-2012, 08:11 PM
Good point, Betty P. I wonder why she would have closed the doors first before somehow making it over the rail? But that is only trumped by why she would have done it all in the dark. Especially the note she wrote on the door. In the dark would have been tough. Too bad it hasn't been shown. Maybe it was sloppily written.

We don't know for sure..... about the doors... by the time the helicopters flew by... the police were there... I think that is when the doors were closed..
there is a photo of them open from the ground up that Le took... that is where I noticed the lights were out.....

LE could have turned out the lights and closed the doors... we don't know for sure...

Salem
10-07-2012, 08:44 PM
Hey Guys - there is a thread for why you think it was murder - please use it. This thread is for why you think it was a suicide and is a NON-Argument thread (we have enough arguing threads, thank you very much).

If you do not believe it was suicide, that's fine, you can post that and post respectfully why, BUT you can not argue or follow every post around and try to refute it. State your case and move on. The same goes for the "think it was murder" thread.

NO ARGUING allowed in these 2 threads.

Salem

As always, if you have questions, pm a moderator.

CuriousGeorgia
10-08-2012, 10:07 PM
The document addressed to Jonah that was found at the scene was never discussed by LE. If this had been a sort of last message to Jonah from Rebecca, would LE have to disclose that? I've always wondered if there was more to that than we were told.

Inparadise
10-08-2012, 10:38 PM
The document addressed to Jonah that was found at the scene was never discussed by LE. If this had been a sort of last message to Jonah from Rebecca, would LE have to disclose that? I've always wondered if there was more to that than we were told.

And it could have very well been mail, like a magazine or something else that arrived via USPS............there was never a statement that it was something from Rebecca addressed to Jonah.

CuriousGeorgia
10-08-2012, 11:05 PM
And it could have very well been mail, like a magazine or something else that arrived via USPS............there was never a statement that it was something from Rebecca addressed to Jonah.

I doubt that, since it was taken as evidence. IMO, it was something personal.

Inparadise
10-08-2012, 11:10 PM
I doubt that, since it was taken as evidence. IMO, it was something personal.

Perhaps it was something from Dina?

CuriousGeorgia
10-08-2012, 11:11 PM
Perhaps it was something from Dina?

Or maybe something from XZ?

freespeech
10-09-2012, 01:58 AM
The document addressed to Jonah that was found at the scene was never discussed by LE. If this had been a sort of last message to Jonah from Rebecca, would LE have to disclose that? I've always wondered if there was more to that than we were told.

SDSO's "evidence" for suicide was so flimsy they would have already used the document to support their suicide determination if it were anything important or significant to the investigation. Whatever it is, the Zahaus and Bremner know about it and apparently weren't impressed with it because they are still challenging the suicide ruling. <modsnip>. Jmoo.

CuriousGeorgia
10-09-2012, 02:26 AM
Doubtful, since she didn't know the address for 911.

I doubt she would have the address on it! Just "Jonah" would do. And she could have left him a note thanking him for the trip and expressing her sadness about Max's injury, IMO.

CuriousGeorgia
10-09-2012, 02:29 AM
SDSO's "evidence" for suicide was so flimsy they would have already used the document to support their suicide determination if it were anything important or significant to the investigation. Whatever it is, the Zahaus and Bremner know about it and apparently weren't impressed with it because they are still challenging the suicide ruling. <modsnip> Jmoo.

I find the evidence they had very compelling and proof that it was suicide. I think the Zahaus would have been challenging the suicide ruling even IF Rebecca had left a clear note saying why she did what she did. They are in major denial, IMO, and would have been no matter what.

I think that if it were a personal note to Jonah from Rebecca, that LE would have kept it quiet, and that the Zahaus or Bremner would never mention it.

JMO

freespeech
10-09-2012, 06:32 AM
I find the evidence they had very compelling and proof that it was suicide. I think the Zahaus would have been challenging the suicide ruling even IF Rebecca had left a clear note saying why she did what she did. They are in major denial, IMO, and would have been no matter what.

I think that if it were a personal note to Jonah from Rebecca, that LE would have kept it quiet, and that the Zahaus or Bremner would never mention it.

JMO

of course you do know that according to Gore there was no suicide note. Do you think he lied about that? <modsnip>.

CuriousGeorgia
10-09-2012, 01:34 PM
of course you do know that according to Gore there was no suicide note. Do you think he lied about that? <modsnip>.

It may not have been a note that said, "Jonah, I'm hanging myself because of what happened to Max", but could have been a note saying other things to Jonah. And since LE does not release suicide notes, they have no obligation to tell the public what was in the note.

<modsnip>

Tink56
10-09-2012, 11:09 PM
It may not have been a note that said, "Jonah, I'm hanging myself because of what happened to Max", but could have been a note saying other things to Jonah. And since LE does not release suicide notes, they have no obligation to tell the public what was in the note.

Dina in denial? That must be your theory, as I don't know where you got that. Dina knows that the story Rebecca gave was not correct. She knows there was more to Max's accident than Rebecca would say. Dina knows Rebecca hung herself to avoid questions. What is she in denial about?

How/from whom does Dina KNOW that Rebecca hanged herself to avoid questions? I have never read that from any reliable msm or le source.

justice be served
10-09-2012, 11:44 PM
Regular people find the death of Rebecca to be bizarre particularly in light of Max's accident so close before. So much so that it is still being debated heavily over a year later. One needn't be involved to question the validity of the suicide ruling. Just ordinary people who are intelligent.

CuriousGeorgia
10-10-2012, 02:40 AM
Most people believe that Rebecca committed suicide because she was upset about Max. But I think that there is much more evidence that she was avoiding questions about his accident. I think the reason that makes the most sense is that she was somehow involved, or staged, or cover-up, (or a combination of all three) in Max's "accident". She did not seem to be that upset after Max went to the hospital. I think she was worried about CPS being called. I think she knew they were on to her.

Tink56
10-10-2012, 11:17 AM
Most people believe that Rebecca committed suicide because she was upset about Max. But I think that there is much more evidence that she was avoiding questions about his accident. I think the reason that makes the most sense is that she was somehow involved, or staged, or cover-up, (or a combination of all three) in Max's "accident". She did not seem to be that upset after Max went to the hospital. I think she was worried about CPS being called. I think she knew they were on to her.

IF Rebecca hanged herself, I think it is much more likely that she was distraught about the reality of NO FUTURE with Jonah. Obviously Dina would blame her for Max's death, regardless of any proof to the contrary, IMO. Rebecca was banned from visiting Max in the hospital. Obviously he wouldn't recover quickly, if at all.

If I were going to "guess" what might have been on the message from Jonah, it is much more likely that Jonah told Rebecca that Dina was on the warpath, Rebecca should leave Coronado because Jonah would be occupied with Max for the near future, and her presence in Coronado would be problematic for all concerned. She was already ambivalent about her place in Jonah's life and the harsh reality of being the scapegoat for all the anger over the accident being directed toward her may have left her feeling that the relationship was over.

IMO, it much more likely that the end of a love affair would lead to feelings of despair than a few routine questions from CPS. CPS investigates all serious injury accidents, especially if the child can't respond and answer questions themselves.

P.S. I haven't read anywhere that MOST people think the death of Rebecca is associated with her having feelings of guilt. Is this just your opinion?

CuriousGeorgia
10-10-2012, 12:52 PM
IF Rebecca hanged herself, I think it is much more likely that she was distraught about the reality of NO FUTURE with Jonah. Obviously Dina would blame her for Max's death, regardless of any proof to the contrary, IMO. Rebecca was banned from visiting Max in the hospital. Obviously he wouldn't recover quickly, if at all.

If I were going to "guess" what might have been on the message from Jonah, it is much more likely that Jonah told Rebecca that Dina was on the warpath, Rebecca should leave Coronado because Jonah would be occupied with Max for the near future, and her presence in Coronado would be problematic for all concerned. She was already ambivalent about her place in Jonah's life and the harsh reality of being the scapegoat for all the anger over the accident being directed toward her may have left her feeling that the relationship was over.

IMO, it much more likely that the end of a love affair would lead to feelings of despair than a few routine questions from CPS. CPS investigates all serious injury accidents, especially if the child can't respond and answer questions themselves.

P.S. I haven't read anywhere that MOST people think the death of Rebecca is associated with her having feelings of guilt. Is this just your opinion?


It is not true that Rebecca was banned from the hospital. She was taken to the ER to see Max on Monday by police, and she went to see him Tuesday will Dina was home trying to get some rest.

It is the SDSO that said they thought Rebecca was upset about Max. I think there was much more to it that that, and Max's injury did not push her over the edge. I think she was much more concerned with CPS and losing out on her new lifestyle. JMO

Tink56
10-10-2012, 07:51 PM
It is not true that Rebecca was banned from the hospital. She was taken to the ER to see Max on Monday by police, and she went to see him Tuesday will Dina was home trying to get some rest.

It is the SDSO that said they thought Rebecca was upset about Max. I think there was much more to it that that, and Max's injury did not push her over the edge. I think she was much more concerned with CPS and losing out on her new lifestyle. JMO

I am sure that Rebecca would not have been allowed at Children's if Dina was present...right?

And, I agree that RZ was upset by Max's injury, but I don't believe she would have committed suicide to avoid speaking to CPS, as that interview would have been an routine inquiry. I haven't read any quotes that lead me to believe that RZ was enchanted with her "new lifestyle." In fact, it appears that there were at least two or three individuals who tried to make her "new lifestyle," quite uncomfortable; IMO, of course.

CuriousGeorgia
10-10-2012, 08:19 PM
I am sure that Rebecca would not have been allowed at Children's if Dina was present...right?

And, I agree that RZ was upset by Max's injury, but I don't believe she would have committed suicide to avoid speaking to CPS, as that interview would have been an routine inquiry. I haven't read any quotes that lead me to believe that RZ was enchanted with her "new lifestyle." In fact, it appears that there were at least two or three individuals who tried to make her "new lifestyle," quite uncomfortable; IMO, of course.


I don't know if "allowed" is the right word. She may not have wanted to go when Dina was there. It could have been her choice, not Dina's. Or maybe Jonah didn't want them together. Rady's has a policy that only 2 people are allowed in an ICU room at a time. I highly doubt that Rebecca would want to be in the room with Dina. She probably went while Jonah was at the ER and while Jonah was there Tuesday after Dina left to go home. It is all speculation since we don't know that.

So if you don't think that she committed suicide over grief, having to speak with the ICU, or because she didn't want to lose the lifestyle she was accustomed to living, why do you think she killed herself? Because she was in love with Jonah and knew that she would lose him?

I know that is what many people think, but I believe it was a combination of things and that having to speak with detectives or CPS played a big role. JMO

Tink56
10-10-2012, 08:55 PM
I don't know if "allowed" is the right word. She may not have wanted to go when Dina was there. It could have been her choice, not Dina's. Or maybe Jonah didn't want them together. Rady's has a policy that only 2 people are allowed in an ICU room at a time. I highly doubt that Rebecca would want to be in the room with Dina. She probably went while Jonah was at the ER and while Jonah was there Tuesday after Dina left to go home. It is all speculation since we don't know that.

So if you don't think that she committed suicide over grief, having to speak with the ICU, or because she didn't want to lose the lifestyle she was accustomed to living, why do you think she killed herself? Because she was in love with Jonah and knew that she would lose him?

I know that is what many people think, but I believe it was a combination of things and that having to speak with detectives or CPS played a big role. JMO

I don't know many things including what really happened during either accident and/or death. The evidence hasn't been fully revealed to the public or, so it seems, to all parties intimately effected by the deaths of Max and Rebecca.

IF RZ took her own life, IMO, we do not know what influenced her decision or her thought process. Those closest to her (sister, Jonah) did not see any signs of this drastic depression.

I personally do not think all the things in RZ's death add up to suicide. In fact, there are many gaping holes in the known information.

I think both cases should looked at with a fresh set of eyes. However, I personally do not think that RZ would have "assaulted" Max and chased him over the balcony. THAT scenario just does not add up to me.

Rebecca may have felt terribly guilty if somehow she felt the dog (who was still very young) might have been involved in Max's accident. I am curious about the letter addressed to Jonah. I wonder if NR verbally accosted Rebecca in any manner and made harsh accusations. I wonder if JS warned RZ that because of Max's condition, DS was blaming RZ for the accident. Where were the caretakers? What about the witnesses who heard screams for help? So many things don't seem to make sense, IMO.

I sincerely think that there will be no resolution for the families without further investigation.

CuriousGeorgia
10-10-2012, 10:34 PM
Personally, I think they have plenty of evidence that proves it was suicide. IF there were calls for help, perhaps they even came from Rebecca...in order to be "saved". Maybe she wanted Adam to hear her and come rushing out. Only Rebecca knows.

I just wonder what evidence it would take for the Zahaus to accept it was suicide. If the DNA, fingerprints, and Rebeca's phone journal hasn't convinced them, I really don't know if anything will. JMO

justice be served
10-11-2012, 12:36 AM
The operative issue is not what it will take for the Zahau family to accept it was suicide, but instead what will it take for the many, many others to believe it was suicide. Otherwise known as the general public.

In fact, this ongoing debate of how many really are on either side can be compared to the presidential polling going on right now. The number of people on this and other sites that are for the suicide belief seems to be greatly outnumbered by those that believe Rebecca was murdered (simply reference this site's polls). This fact seems to be continually left out of that equation. This may not be easily accepted but it is likely a fact.

Now with that being said and i think it would be frankly difficult to dispute this fact, it is still healthy to have the debate about what happened. But let's at least be real about polling results.

Inparadise
10-11-2012, 01:36 AM
Personally, I think they have plenty of evidence that proves it was suicide. IF there were calls for help, perhaps they even came from Rebecca...in order to be "saved". Maybe she wanted Adam to hear her and come rushing out. Only Rebecca knows.

I just wonder what evidence it would take for the Zahaus to accept it was suicide. If the DNA, fingerprints, and Rebeca's phone journal hasn't convinced them, I really don't know if anything will. JMO

Excuse me, but how could Rebecca have called for help with a t-shirt gagged in her mouth? Whom ever put that there wanted to make sure that her screams for help were not heard.

freespeech
10-11-2012, 02:00 AM
It is not true that Rebecca was banned from the hospital. She was taken to the ER to see Max on Monday by police, and she went to see him Tuesday will Dina was home trying to get some rest.

It is the SDSO that said they thought Rebecca was upset about Max. I think there was much more to it that that, and Max's injury did not push her over the edge. I think she was much more concerned with CPS and losing out on her new lifestyle. JMO

I thought the Coronado Police ruled that Max's death was an accident. Why would they do that if they though Rebecca murdered him. Bill Gore also adamantly and repeatedly stated stated that Max was not murdered but the victim of a tragic accident.

Two separate police agencies and the medical examiner ruled Max's death as a result of and accident. Also, the hospital never reported that Max was a homicide victim.

If any of the above agencies thought Max was killed then why didn't Dina use the original police and hospital records to prove her point. The answer is simple. It didn't happen. Rebecca had no reason to be afraid of the Coronado Police so that wouldn't be a reason to commit suicide.

freespeech
10-11-2012, 02:08 AM
Most people believe that Rebecca committed suicide because she was upset about Max. But I think that there is much more evidence that she was avoiding questions about his accident. I think the reason that makes the most sense is that she was somehow involved, or staged, or cover-up, (or a combination of all three) in Max's "accident". She did not seem to be that upset after Max went to the hospital. I think she was worried about CPS being called. I think she knew they were on to her.

Or maybe Rebecca could not answer the questions that were asked because she did not know the answers and she did not see the accident.

You say that Rebecca did not seem that upset after the accident. Can you be more specific about why you think that by giving some reasons that show what you mean?

Inparadise
10-11-2012, 02:11 AM
I thought the Coronado Police ruled that Max's death was an accident. Why would they do that if they though Rebecca murdered him. Bill Gore also adamantly and repeatedly stated stated that Max was not murdered but the victim of a tragic accident.

Two separate police agencies and the medical examiner ruled Max's death as a result of and accident. Also, the hospital never reported that Max was a homicide victim.

If any of the above agencies thought Max was killed then why didn't Dina use the original police and hospital records to prove her point. The answer is simple. It didn't happen. Rebecca had no reason to be afraid of the Coronado Police so that wouldn't be a reason to commit suicide.

You are so right in your thoughts........IMO, <modsnip>

inthedark14
10-11-2012, 11:01 AM
Personally, I think they have plenty of evidence that proves it was suicide. IF there were calls for help, perhaps they even came from Rebecca...in order to be "saved". Maybe she wanted Adam to hear her and come rushing out. Only Rebecca knows.

I just wonder what evidence it would take for the Zahaus to accept it was suicide. If the DNA, fingerprints, and Rebeca's phone journal hasn't convinced them, I really don't know if anything will. JMO

Hi Curious Georgia,

Now you've got me curious...the phone journal has never been made public. Could you provide a link to how you are privy to this information?

TIA

CuriousGeorgia
10-11-2012, 01:38 PM
Excuse me, but how could Rebecca have called for help with a t-shirt gagged in her mouth? Whom ever put that there wanted to make sure that her screams for help were not heard.

Since Rebecca was the one that put the gag in her mouth (otherwise, she could have just spit it out), she could have called for help, put the gag in, and then gone over the railing. Very simple, IMO.

MyBelle
10-11-2012, 02:13 PM
IF Rebecca hanged herself, I think it is much more likely that she was distraught about the reality of NO FUTURE with Jonah. Obviously Dina would blame her for Max's death, regardless of any proof to the contrary, IMO. Rebecca was banned from visiting Max in the hospital. Obviously he wouldn't recover quickly, if at all.

If I were going to "guess" what might have been on the message from Jonah, it is much more likely that Jonah told Rebecca that Dina was on the warpath, Rebecca should leave Coronado because Jonah would be occupied with Max for the near future, and her presence in Coronado would be problematic for all concerned. She was already ambivalent about her place in Jonah's life and the harsh reality of being the scapegoat for all the anger over the accident being directed toward her may have left her feeling that the relationship was over.

IMO, it much more likely that the end of a love affair would lead to feelings of despair than a few routine questions from CPS. CPS investigates all serious injury accidents, especially if the child can't respond and answer questions themselves.P.S. I haven't read anywhere that MOST people think the death of Rebecca is associated with her having feelings of guilt. Is this just your opinion?

BBM. CPS does not investigate ALL accidents involving children. They only investigate those that LE or treating medical personnel deem to be suspicious as happened in Max's case. I don't find it at all surprising that a father of an injured child would end a love affair if he believed his lover was responsible for the injuries.

JMO

elfie
10-11-2012, 03:11 PM
Moving my thoughts to the appropriate thread:

I don't think it was possible, judging from the footprint and dust disturbance on the railing evidence gathered, that Rebecca went over the balcony railing on her own.

Looking at the photos of the railing, I am comfortable with a 3 1/2" - 3 3/4" disturbance as being the largest of the cleared areas. (I have estimated the disturbance areas for the hypothetical movements downward from the original post and added to it.)

The possible choices for Rebecca going over by her own will, for a person tied in the manner in which she was bound:

1. Sitting on the railing and maneuvering by pulling her knees to her chest and turning to place her bound feet on the other side of the railing, with her hands tied behind her back = contact with her rear and turning --> a much larger area would have been swiped clean, probably 15" - 16"

2. Going over sideways on her left side, head first = contact with her waist sliding down her hip to her thigh in order to achieve the shift of her center of gravity enough to go over ---> 9"-11" of completely cleared railing.
With her arms tied behind her back, this method would also require some rotation towards the front in order to accomplish.

3. Going over on her torso, head first = contact with her stomach down along to her hips to shift the center of gravity ---> 12" to 14" of completely cleared railing.

There would be no way to briefly touch the railing on her own because all of the head first scenarios involve shifting her weight and sliding in order to accomplish the shift of her center of gravity in order to go over.

The (at the very most) 5" total of complete clearing does not fit with any of these scenarios. (3 1/2" - 3 3/4" of complete clearing if you compare the daylight photo from the Sheriff's PP presentation with the tape measure at the railing, from erosion bump to erosion bump.)

The scenarios I outlined are the possibilities for a person of her height, tied in the manner that she was bound.
There are no toe or foot prints facing back towards the room, so that eliminates scenario #1.

She could not have gone over the railing backwards on her own. Her right foot toe prints were facing towards the rail on a slight diagonal to the right. There is a 1" disturbance on the rail closest to her toe print.

Also, she could not have gone over backwards with her right foot toe prints facing the rail, and her arms bound behind her back.

All other scenarios require leverage to overcome her center of gravity which would have been below the top of the railing.

There is no clearing on the railing larger than 3 1/2" - 3 3/4", eliminating the sideways and torso scenarios.

From the right foot toe print closest to the rail facing slightly to the right on a diagonal, the left hip would have been the only candidate for the sideways scenario.

Rebecca could not have gone over the railing of her own free will.

One question: Why would Rebecca have left the handle from the cord tied into the bindings?

27275

27276

elfie
10-11-2012, 03:20 PM
Since Rebecca was the one that put the gag in her mouth (otherwise, she could have just spit it out), she could have called for help, put the gag in, and then gone over the railing. Very simple, IMO.

I don't believe that the gag was tied loosely, she could not have spit it out.
Her arms were bound behind her back so she could not have put it back in, anyway.

She could not have balanced on her right foot toes, spit out the gag, undo her arms and then put the gag back in and redo the binding on her arms.

CuriousGeorgia
10-11-2012, 04:17 PM
ThE SDSO stated that it was in her mouth, not tied there. She is the one that tied her arms, she loosely looped them while they were in front of her, took that off and held it still looped, put the end of the t-shirt in her mouth to keep her tongue from being bitten off or found with it protruding, put the loops around her wrists in the back, and pulled the end tight. That is why she was found with the end still clutched in her cold hand.

She slept in the nude, so she was obviously comfortable that way. I also think she did that to shock Jonah more.

JMO, of course.

elfie
10-11-2012, 04:22 PM
ThE SDSO stated that it was in her mouth, not tied there. She is the one that tied her arms, she loosely looped them while they were in front of her, took that off and held it still looped, put the end of the t-shirt in her mouth to keep her tongue from being bitten off or found with it protruding, put the loops around her wrists in the back, and pulled the end tight. That is why she was found with the end still clutched in her cold hand.

She slept in the nude, so she was obviously comfortable that way. I also think she did that to shock Jonah more.

JMO, of course.

Oh, yes, you are correct on the manner in which the gag was accomplished.

bourne
10-11-2012, 04:32 PM
Hi Curious Georgia,

Now you've got me curious...the phone journal has never been made public. Could you provide a link to how you are privy to this information?

TIA

When did the phone journal contents become available to the public? Link plz.

CuriousGeorgia
10-11-2012, 04:47 PM
According to Rebecca's autopsy report, a t-shirt was wrapped around her neck three times and I think double-knotted, and a sleeve was stuck in her mouth.

Her murderers wanted to make sure Rebecca would get strangled and suffocated by both the t-shirt and the noose, as well as make it impossible for Rebecca to breathe. Without oxygen or respiration, Rebecca was suffocated -- to simulate what her murderers thought Max had gone through, as alleged in Max's medical reports by Dr. Peterson.

No way no how Rebecca could have made it across the bedroom with her wrists and ankles bound and the t-shirt wound 3x tight around her neck and throat, a sleeve stuffed in her mouth, and a hanging noose around her neck, to leap off a three feet high balcony without making significant dust patterns with her feet and body on the balcony. A physical impossibility.


The problem with your theory is that the ME said that RZ was NOT strangled, and that she was not dragged, drugged, and did not have any defensive wounds.

The "killers" would have had to wear hazemat suits to not leave a trace of ANYTHING. That just didn't happen.

Sorry, but I think it would be SO easy to do what RZ did. I recently went back and read some of the posts from the first few weeks and many people felt that she killed herself. And many felt she killed herself over something to do with Max's accident.

As it is, the case it ruled a suicide because it was looked at by real detectives, at the real scene, looking at real evidence. I highly doubt that ruling will ever be change because, IMO, it is correct and there is no physical evidence to show it was anything but suicide.

JMO.

CuriousGeorgia
10-11-2012, 05:10 PM
According to Rebecca's autopsy report, a t-shirt was wrapped around her neck three times and I think double-knotted, and a sleeve was stuck in her mouth.

No way no how Rebecca could have made it across the bedroom with her wrists and ankles bound and the t-shirt wound 3x tight around her neck and throat, a sleeve stuffed in her mouth, and a hanging noose around her neck, to leap off a three feet high balcony without making significant dust patterns with her feet and body on the balcony. A physical impossibility.


From the investigative narrative, pg. 3, signed by Dana Gary, Medical Examiner Investigator

BBM

"A similar rope was also around her neck with a piece of cloth on top, also wrapped around her neck."

From of the Autopsy Report, pg. 4, signed by Jonathan R Lucas, M.D. Deputy Medical Examiner

"She had a reddish-orange rope ligature around her neck and a blue piece of fabric, possibly a shirt, around the neck outside of the ligature."

NOTE that neither statement includes the words "knot" or "knots".


From page 3,

"The decedent's right hand could be removed fairly easily from the binding simply by slipping the hand from the rope."


From page 2,

"The floor of the balcony was very dirty, and two bare footprints consistent with the decedent's dirty bare feet were visible in the dirt just outside the doorframe, with the heels together and the toes out in the shape of a "V". Toe prints, apparently from the right foot, were close to the balcony railing and in line with an area of dirt clearing on the top of the balcony railing and with the point at which the rope was hung over the balcony. Other than a clearly visible matched police officer's fresh boot print, no other foot or shoe prints were seen on the balcony, and there were no other footprints (other than the officer's) or evidence of a struggle."



All of those things, among many others, make it very clear to me that Rebecca Zahau hung herself. There is just no possibility is was NOT suicide.

And that's why I am convinced it WAS suicide.

JMO

CuriousGeorgia
10-14-2012, 10:26 PM
Who do you think Rebecca was talking about in the message on the door?

She (Rebecca, XZ?) saved him (Max, Jonah?), can he (Adam, Max, Jesus?) save her (Rebecca, XZ?, Dina?).

elfie
10-14-2012, 11:40 PM
Who do you think Rebecca was talking about in the message on the door?

She (Rebecca, XZ?) saved him (Max, Jonah?), can he (Adam, Max, Jesus?) save her (Rebecca, XZ?, Dina?).

I don't think Rebecca painted it.

K_Z
10-14-2012, 11:54 PM
I don't think Rebecca painted it.

I agree. I don't think she painted it, either.

justice be served
10-14-2012, 11:57 PM
I agree. I don't think she painted it, either.

In fact, perhaps the killer painted it in a manner similar to the killer's reputed manner of writing and that is why dear Gore had it obliterated so quickly. To help out his buddy in so very many ways.

Inparadise
10-14-2012, 11:59 PM
I don't think Rebecca painted it.

I think the message was painted by someone other than Rebecca, and the meaning is:
She (Rebecca) saved him (Jonah, from a terrible relationship with Dina), Can you (Jonah) save her (Rebecca, from Dina). It was very taunting in it's nature and intention.........

K_Z
10-15-2012, 12:24 AM
I think the message was painted by someone other than Rebecca, and the meaning is:
She (Rebecca) saved him (Jonah, from a terrible relationship with Dina), Can you (Jonah) save her (Rebecca, from Dina). It was very taunting in it's nature and intention.........

BBM.

I agree. I have always interpreted that message as an angry, sarcastic, taunting message. I believe it was directed to Jonah.

And not from Rebecca.

justice be served
10-15-2012, 12:30 AM
BBM.

I agree. I have always interpreted that message as an angry, sarcastic, taunting message. I believe it was directed to Jonah.

And not from Rebecca.

In a scenario where there were multiple murderers, it could have been painted in a rage at one of the other murderers as well.

K_Z
10-15-2012, 12:41 AM
In a scenario where there were multiple murderers, it could have been painted in a rage at one of the other murderers as well.

Now, that is a really interesting thought. I haven't pondered that angle.

freespeech
10-15-2012, 02:27 AM
From the investigative narrative, pg. 3, signed by Dana Gary, Medical Examiner Investigator

BBM

"A similar rope was also around her neck with a piece of cloth on top, also wrapped around her neck."

From of the Autopsy Report, pg. 4, signed by Jonathan R Lucas, M.D. Deputy Medical Examiner

"She had a reddish-orange rope ligature around her neck and a blue piece of fabric, possibly a shirt, around the neck outside of the ligature."

NOTE that neither statement includes the words "knot" or "knots".


From page 3,

"The decedent's right hand could be removed fairly easily from the binding simply by slipping the hand from the rope."


From page 2,

"The floor of the balcony was very dirty, and two bare footprints consistent with the decedent's dirty bare feet were visible in the dirt just outside the doorframe, with the heels together and the toes out in the shape of a "V". Toe prints, apparently from the right foot, were close to the balcony railing and in line with an area of dirt clearing on the top of the balcony railing and with the point at which the rope was hung over the balcony. Other than a clearly visible matched police officer's fresh boot print, no other foot or shoe prints were seen on the balcony, and there were no other footprints (other than the officer's) or evidence of a struggle."



All of those things, among many others, make it very clear to me that Rebecca Zahau hung herself. There is just no possibility is was NOT suicide.

And that's why I am convinced it WAS suicide.

JMO

This is to rebut your statement that ..."NOTE that neither statement includes the words "knot" or "knots".

Jonathan Lucas wrote on Rebecca's autopsy report that " Rebecca's neck circumference was about ten and three quarter inches. The tee shirt sleeves were wrapped around the neck, the rope and the hair three times and knotted twice in front. The rope ligature and the tee shirt were cut off and removed for the autopsy."

CuriousGeorgia
10-15-2012, 03:22 AM
This thread is for those that believe Rebecca committed suicide. Please try to post on the appropriate thread. TIA.

CuriousGeorgia
10-15-2012, 03:23 AM
This is to rebut your statement that ..."NOTE that neither statement includes the words "knot" or "knots".

Jonathan Lucas wrote on Rebecca's autopsy report that " Rebecca's neck circumference was about ten and three quarter inches. The tee shirt sleeves were wrapped around the neck, the rope and the hair three times and knotted twice in front. The rope ligature and the tee shirt were cut off and removed for the autopsy."

I read the autopsy...what page are you claiming this is on?

K_Z
10-15-2012, 11:09 AM
I read the autopsy...what page are you claiming this is on?

It's on page 8, under the heading "Neck". Here is a link.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/zahau,%20rebecca_report.pdf

bourne
10-15-2012, 12:08 PM
The problem with your theory is that the ME said that RZ was NOT strangled, and that she was not dragged, drugged, and did not have any defensive wounds.

The "killers" would have had to wear hazemat suits to not leave a trace of ANYTHING. That just didn't happen.

Sorry, but I think it would be SO easy to do what RZ did. I recently went back and read some of the posts from the first few weeks and many people felt that she killed herself. And many felt she killed herself over something to do with Max's accident.

As it is, the case it ruled a suicide because it was looked at by real detectives, at the real scene, looking at real evidence. I highly doubt that ruling will ever be change because, IMO, it is correct and there is no physical evidence to show it was anything but suicide.

JMO.

All your statements are invalid as you have no proof, no science backing anything you say.

Inparadise
10-15-2012, 12:15 PM
All your statements are invalid as you have no proof, no science backing anything you say.

A good "once over" with a vacuum cleaner and a "wipe down" would have taken care of any evidence at the crime scene.

freespeech
10-15-2012, 01:21 PM
A good "once over" with a vacuum cleaner and a "wipe down" would have taken care of any evidence at the crime scene.

Inparadise, I agree as well. A "hazemat" suit as suggested by a previous poster would not have been necessary here. The carpet could have easily been vacuumed and surfaces wiped down. I have read that dry sheets are especially effective in removing fingerprints. I recall seeing a dryer sheet in one of the evidence photos. I wonder if the knives, door frames etc. were tested for dryer sheet residue. That should have been an easy test.

I tell you what I think is so odd about this case is that sdso failed to perform an elementary and basic investigation. Something as simple as checking for dryer sheet residue on the knife blades doesn't seem to have been done. The standard and unscientific sdso response to answer why something was not done is to state that they didn't do it because all the evidence pointed to suicide. The problem with that is when you try to extract their suicide evidence there isn't any because none was tested so you end up going into an illogical, reasonless and circular argument. This is why I feel they should have a brand new investigation here to wash away the previously unfounded sdso assertions. As long as sdso has any say-so in the matter they are going to try to avoid embarrassment by defending their erroneous findings.

However, sdso cannot go back and try to edit their blunders because Bremner and the Zahaus have the original version of what was done. I wonder if the Zauhas will ever release those records to the public. I would think that they would have that right if they wanted to do that, no?

Inparadise
10-15-2012, 01:26 PM
Inparadise, I agree as well. A 'hazmat" suit as suggested by a previous poster would not have been necessary here. the carpet could have easily been vacuumed and surfaces wiped down. I read that dry sheets were especially effective in removing fingerprints. I recall seeing a dryer sheet in one of the evidence photos. I wonder if the knives, door frames etc. were tested for dryer sheet residue. That should have been an easy test.

I tell you what I think is so odd about this case is that an elementary and basic investigation failed to be performed. Like something as simple as checking for dryer sheet residue on the knofe blades.

Fortunately, sdso cannot go back and try to fix their blunders by editing the records since Bremner and the Zahaus have the original version of what was done. I wonder if the Zauhas will ever release those records to the public. I would think that they would have that right if they wanted to do that, no?

One of the other things that LE should have done right away was to inspect the vacuum cleaner bag..........but they didn't. It doesn't appear that they did much of anything except stand around and do as little as possible while waiting for orders from their <mod snip> leader Gore.

MyBelle
10-15-2012, 01:57 PM
Bourne, your analysis is correct in it's conclusion. Thank you for clearly explaining the actual physiological dynamic that occurred due to the tee shirt ligature by using scientific reasoning.

I agree that if the autopsy report correctly stated that the tee shirt sleeves were wrapped around Rebecca's neck three times and knotted twice then that ligature would have choked and suffocated her before she would have been able to get to the balcony to jump. Based on the tee shirt ligature alone and without considering all the other anomalous factors such as the lack of balcony dust disturbance, unidentified footprints on the balcony, unusual rope bindings and et al, that would be enough to rule a rush to judgement in LE's unscientifically reasoned suicide determination.

A new and independent investigation and with fresh eyes could answer the Zahau family's and general public's questions here. Hopefully, the next group of investigators will back up their statements and conclusions with scientific data that can be rationally explained, proven and duplicated with an actual demonstration/re-enactment of either suicide or murder, which ever is shown by rational and provable methods. That would be compelling and convincing evidence, imo.

However, as it stands sdso has not given rational or provable explanations thus far so all the evidence seems to point to murder. This is not only my opinion but is also questioned by trained and renown pathologists and doctors such as Maurice Godwin, Cyril Wecht and others as well.

The topic of THIS thread is why some of us think it is suicide.

I don't believe LE needed much science and instead relied on just common sense to conclude a loosely-wrapped shirt whether knotted or not is not going to strangle or choke someone to death in a suicide.

JMO

freespeech
10-15-2012, 02:04 PM
The topic of THIS thread is why some of us think it is suicide.

I don't believe LE needed much science and instead relied on just common sense to conclude a loosely-wrapped shirt whether knotted or not is not going to strangle or choke someone to death in a suicide.

JMO

If sdso did not need science to prove their case then why did Gore use the "science doesn't lie" mantra to support his findings. Why didn't he instead say" common sense doesn't lie?"

I apologize if you do not agree with me but i don't understand jumping to a conclusion based on Gore's common sense make common sense. How would I assume or know Gore had any common sense. I believe scientific evidence would be the stronger, more valid and generally accepted answer here.

freespeech
10-15-2012, 02:21 PM
<mod snip>.

Justice be served, I never knew about abductive reasoning until i read your other comment about it. It is a very interesting concept.

I don't know what kind of time you have but it would be wonderful if you started an informational thread on that concept and others. We could all add various information and knowledge as to how an investigation is actually done professionally. We could title it Information on Profession Investigatory Technique and Concepts or something to that effect. It would be a good go to reference to use for guiding the flow of our discussions here, no?

Thanks again for very useful information on this fascinating subject.

CuriousGeorgia
10-15-2012, 05:30 PM
Inparadise, I agree as well. A "hazemat" suit as suggested by a previous poster would not have been necessary here. The carpet could have easily been vacuumed and surfaces wiped down. I have read that dry sheets are especially effective in removing fingerprints. I recall seeing a dryer sheet in one of the evidence photos. I wonder if the knives, door frames etc. were tested for dryer sheet residue. That should have been an easy test.

I tell you what I think is so odd about this case is that sdso failed to perform an elementary and basic investigation. Something as simple as checking for dryer sheet residue on the knife blades doesn't seem to have been done. The standard and unscientific sdso response to answer why something was not done is to state that they didn't do it because all the evidence pointed to suicide. The problem with that is when you try to extract their suicide evidence there isn't any because none was tested so you end up going into an illogical, reasonless and circular argument. This is why I feel they should have a brand new investigation here to wash away the previously unfounded sdso assertions. As long as sdso has any say-so in the matter they are going to try to avoid embarrassment by defending their erroneous findings.

However, sdso cannot go back and try to edit their blunders because Bremner and the Zahaus have the original version of what was done. I wonder if the Zauhas will ever release those records to the public. I would think that they would have that right if they wanted to do that, no?



You and I and everyone else except those that have seen the files, don't have any CLUE what was checked and what was NOT checked.

The Zahaus will NEVER release the files to the public because of the information about Rebecca that they do not want you to see. THAT is why Anne Bremner shut up after Gore said he would release ALL the files if she kept releasing things out of context, things did not give a FAIR or TRUE depiction of the entire investigation. Have no doubt, there is PLENTY more in those files that show Rebecca was suicidal. IMO.

There will NEVER be another investigation. The physical and circumstantial evidence was overwhelming. Hopefully, someday the Zahaus will come out of their denial, and realize that.

CuriousGeorgia
10-15-2012, 05:34 PM
One of the other things that LE should have done right away was to inspect the vacuum cleaner bag..........but they didn't. It doesn't appear that they did much of anything except stand around and do as little as possible while waiting for orders from their <mod snip> leader Gore.


How do you know they didn't check the vacuum cleaner bags? Have you seen the files?

MissJ
10-15-2012, 05:51 PM
If sdso did not need science to prove their case then why did Gore use the "science doesn't lie" mantra to support his findings. Why didn't he instead say" common sense doesn't lie?"

I apologize if you do not agree with me but i don't understand jumping to a conclusion based on Gore's common sense make common sense. How would I assume or know Gore had any common sense. I believe scientific evidence would be the stronger, more valid and generally accepted answer here.

Good point! It is very unusual for an individual to hang themselves while nude. Even more so if the individual is female.

CuriousGeorgia
10-15-2012, 05:59 PM
Good point! It is very unusual for an individual to hang themselves while nude. Even more so if the individual is female.

Rebecca slept in the nude. When a person hangs themselves nude it usually means they feel guilty about something and/or they want to shock who finds them and those that survive them.

CuriousGeorgia
10-16-2012, 01:33 PM
Bourne posted this on the murder thread, "The presentation at the crime scene of two knives, gloves, paintbrushes, painting cryptic message on the bedroom door, multiple bindings to Rebecca's wrists and ankles, multiple wrapping around her neck with a single t-shirt, double-knotting, noose hanging, nudity, etc. are clearly staged for maximum dramatic benefit. An overkill IMO. Someone prone towards making the murder an unforgettable, crime-of-the-century melodrama evidently thought these ridiculous theatrics out."


Bourne, by Georgia, I think you've got it totally right with just one little exception:

"Someone prone towards making the suicide an unforgettable, crime-of-the-century melodrama evidently thought these ridiculous theatrics out."

Betty P
10-16-2012, 06:18 PM
And I think Betty P's got it right too, over on the murder thread, she just has the perpetrator wrong:





Yes the killer did feel comfortable in her surroundings. They knew the only person home was asleep so did not have anxiety about being caught, and may have even wanted that person to wake up and find her right away. They took their time to do it the way they wanted. And that "they" was Rebecca Zahau.

The only problems with your theory are the same ones that have been brought up numerous times:

No prior signs of suicidal ideation

Inability of someone, especially someone with a limp, to tie themselves up hand and foot, gag themselves and place a noose around their neck and still be able to maintain their balance while hopping around. The SDSO demonstration was bogus because the "model" was allowed to use her arms and hands for balance while her feet were bound. See Dr. Phil.

Inability of someone bound,gagged and noosed to turn off the bedroom light and navigate their way in the dark across the room to the balcony

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to maneuver themselves over the balcony and fall without disturbing the dust on the railing in more than a couple of small spots less than 1" wide.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to go head first over the balcony without receiving scrapes or injuries to the face and w/o leaving any DNA on the balcony railing.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to receive multiple stabbing wounds to their back from a bush behind them when their arms were drawn back in bindings, covering most of the area with their arms.

Inexplicable patterns of livor mortis that show settling of the blood in areas not related to a hanging death

that's just a small start, I'll provide you with some more.

CuriousGeorgia
10-16-2012, 06:24 PM
Betty P, I'm trying to respect those that believe Rebecca was murdered by not posting why I think it was suicide with every post trying to prove murder. That is why I posted that here. Perhaps you should post your reply on the murder thread? I know Salem is getting very frustrated with us and I am trying to avoid conflict with those that do not believe the SDSO's ruling of suicide. TIA.

Betty P
10-16-2012, 06:29 PM
Betty P, I'm trying to respect those that believe Rebecca was murdered by not posting why I think it was suicide with every post trying to prove murder. That is why I posted that here. Perhaps you should post your reply on the murder thread? I know Salem is getting very frustrated with us and I am trying to avoid conflict with those that do not believe the SDSO's ruling of suicide. TIA.

<modsnip>.

CuriousGeorgia
10-16-2012, 06:47 PM
In that case, I'll answer you here. My answers are in bold.


No prior signs of suicidal ideation -
Happens all the time in 10-15% of suicides. Not evidence of murder.

Inability of someone, especially someone with a limp, to tie themselves up hand and foot, gag themselves and place a noose around their neck and still be able to maintain their balance while hopping around. The SDSO demonstration was bogus because the "model" was allowed to use her arms and hands for balance while her feet were bound. See Dr. Phil.
Rebecca may have had a slight limp, but she was in great physical shape and would have had no problem doing what she did, according to her trainer, Reed Holman. He would have certainly known the physical shape she was in and whether of not she was capable. Also, CBS8 in San Diego did a reenactment and the girl did it in less that 30 minutes. Not hard at all, she said, and plenty of time to change your mind.

Inability of someone bound,gagged and noosed to turn off the bedroom light and navigate their way in the dark across the room to the balcony

Rebecca knew the room in the light and in the dark, and would have put the noose on, put the gag in, and put her hands behind her back to secure them at the balcony railing.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to maneuver themselves over the balcony and fall without disturbing the dust on the railing in more than a couple of small spots less than 1" wide.

The SDSO believe one spot was from her torso, and one was from the rope and have released photos of that. See their website. She easily went over the balcony. It was not a struggle for her.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to go head first over the balcony without receiving scrapes or injuries to the face and w/o leaving any DNA on the balcony railing.

Her torso touched the balcony, not her face. Just because someone touches something does not mean they will leave DNA.

Inability of someone bound and gagged and noosed to receive multiple stabbing wounds to their back from a bush behind them when their arms were drawn back in bindings, covering most of the area with their arms.

The ME that examined Rebecca said, "There were also scattered abrasions or scrapes on her back and her legs and these were consistent with her impacting or interacting with large plants under the balcony against the exterior of the house. You can see that in exhibit marked courtyard in the top photo. There is no evidence of a struggle or sexual assault. And there were no other significant injuries. The bottoms of her feet were dirty, consistent with having been standing on the balcony. There was no toxicological or physical evidence that she was rendered unconscious or incapacitated prior to the hanging. Finally her hand was easily removed from the wrist bindings. I personally removed it and it was just a simple matter of slipping her hand out, the bindings were not tight. And as was already pointed out, the end of the rope that would've been used to tighten the bindings was actually in one of her hands."

Inexplicable patterns of livor mortis that show settling of the blood in areas not related to a hanging death

Of course she had livor mortis in her legs. She was lying on the grass for over 12 hours. <modsnip>.

CocoChanel
10-19-2012, 08:59 AM
I was glued to this topic a year ago, and was among those who could not imagine RZ taking her own life. Though I have not been reading here as regularly since that time, I have now had the benefit of time to consider all possibilities. I have changed my opinion now, and believe that Max's accident, and the circumstances surrounding it that RZ knew and that we are not privy to but can only surmise, set into motion a terrible spiral downward of RZ's emotional state, to where suicide felt like her only option. It breaks my heart to think of the pain she must have been feeling to choose this act. I do not absolve others' influence on her actions. Much in the same way we see bullies wreck havoc on the self-worth of children, I think that dynamic might have been in play here. No, I am not calling Max's relatives 'bullies', and I do not blame them for lashing out to hold SOMEone responsible for the tragic accident that caused Max's fatal injuries. Whatever responsibilty RZ was feeling, and I believe it would be human nature to feel some if one were the only adult in attendance when it happened, compounded by any pressure from the family to explain/take back/fix/'pay for' the accident, could very well have tipped her over to seeing suicide as a way to answer most of that. Bless her. Though we often say suicide is a permanent solution to a temorary problem, I think RZ saw this as a problem that would be with her forever. The dramatic nature of the suicide is a bit harder for me to come to terms with, but fits with the larger-than-life nature of this family's 'norm'.

Can't believe I have come around to this, but had to state it here. AND IT IS ALL JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Gilgamesh
10-19-2012, 10:55 AM
Pasted that on the wrong thread. Not sure how to move it to the correct thread. My apologies.

CuriousGeorgia
10-19-2012, 01:10 PM
JS and AS immediately began calling it suicide. Others then followed suit.


Others followed suit after all the physical evidence told them that as well. SDSO never said, "Well, Adam thinks it was suicide, so let's just call it that and go home early".

It is obvious in the search warrant for the cell phones that the Shacknais were being throughly investigated as possible POI's in the case. They were being looked at due to a possible HOMICIDE.

Again, I don't find it odd that someone seeing someone hanging (without even having a cup of coffee) would think it was suicide. And both Adam and Jonah were aware of Rebecca's mood the day before. So for them to automatically think suicide is pretty telling about her emotions the day before, IMO.

inthedark14
10-19-2012, 01:13 PM
Others followed suit after all the physical evidence told them that as well. SDSO never said, "Well, Adam thinks it was suicide, so let's just call it that and go home early".

It is obvious in the search warrant for the cell phones that the Shacknais were being throughly investigated as possible POI's in the case. They were being looked at due to a possible HOMICIDE.

Again, I don't find it odd that someone seeing someone hanging (without even having a cup of coffee) would think it was suicide. And both Adam and Jonah were aware of Rebecca's mood the day before. So for them to automatically think suicide is pretty telling about her emotions the day before, IMO.

<modsnip>.

I would also think that her sister, who she spent quite a bit of time with on the phone would be well aware of her mood the day before. Her text messages show that as well.

Always, MOO

CuriousGeorgia
10-19-2012, 01:20 PM
Her sister left in the early afternoon, and I would imagine Rebecca was trying to remain positive for her sister.

I'm sure that the text messages between Jonah and Rebecca that day tell the story of the REAL mood she was in. IMO.

<modsnip>. As you can see, many people believe in the SDSO ruling...even if it took them a while to get there. JMO

MyBelle
10-19-2012, 02:16 PM
Her sister left in the early afternoon, and I would imagine Rebecca was trying to remain positive for her sister.

I'm sure that the text messages between Jonah and Rebecca that day tell the story of the REAL mood she was in. IMO.

<modsnip>. As you can see, many people believe in the SDSO ruling...even if it took them a while to get there. JMO

I agree. I just don't see any parent killing someone rather than allowing the police to at least investigate.

CuriousGeorgia
10-19-2012, 02:52 PM
I agree. I just don't see any parent killing someone rather than allowing the police to at least investigate.

Exactly. And to think that they were planning an elaborate murder in the ICU at Max's bedside is simply ludicrous, IMO.

CuriousGeorgia
10-22-2012, 04:56 PM
I was watching something yesterday about the OJ trail and the defense strategy of Johnny Cochran and it occurred to me that Bremner and the Zahaus seem to be using his questioning of the evidence as a model for how they are approaching the evidence in this case.

Cochran was attempting to get OJ off by accusing the evidence of being tampered with, and other such tactics. One example is the blood sock of OJ's that had Ron Goldman's blood on it. OJ should have been convicted on that DNA alone, IMO.

Bremner and Mary Zahau are trying to cast doubt on the evidence that is making the Shacknais and Romanos innocent of any involvement in Rebecca's case <modsnip>.

Those tactics simply aren't going to work in this case. The case was close and ruled a suicide. "If the ropes on her wrists aren't really tied, there's not much proving the murder side."

MyBelle
10-23-2012, 12:13 AM
I was watching something yesterday about the OJ trail and the defense strategy of Johnny Cochran and it occurred to me that Bremner and the Zahaus seem to be using his questioning of the evidence as a model for how they are approaching the evidence in this case.

Cochran was attempting to get OJ off by accusing the evidence of being tampered with, and other such tactics. One example is the blood sock of OJ's that had Ron Goldman's blood on it. OJ should have been convicted on that DNA alone, IMO.

Bremner and Mary Zahau are trying to cast doubt on the evidence that is making the Shacknais and Romanos innocent of any involvement in Rebecca's case <modsnip>.

Those tactics simply aren't going to work in this case. The case was close and ruled a suicide. "If the ropes on her wrists aren't really tied, there's not much proving the murder side."

I agree. The tactics haven't worked in this case because of their transparency. I think the variety of LE agencies they accused of incompetence and collusion concluded the family's goal was a financial settlement from JS but also knows accomplishing that goal would require the ME to change the death to "inconclusive" or the case reopened. LE isn't about to play that game.

JMO

CuriousGeorgia
10-24-2012, 04:33 PM
Since many on posting on these threads have speculated that Dr. Jon Juca was "paid off" for leaving out details in RZ's autopsy by receiving a promotion, here's a little blurb about that promotion:


"Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Glenn Wagner said there was "uniform excitement" among county officials about Lucas' promotion, probably because Lucas reflects officials' perceptions of what the office should do and be ---- from how he presents himself to how he conveys his analytical thought process to authorities and the public.

"Of all of my folks, possibly excluding myself, Jon has had the most experience in all of that, and he is a known quantity," Wagner said. "I'm quite comfortable and happy to have him as my No. 2."

Wagner said Lucas has proved his professional mettle during 10 years as a deputy medical examiner for the office. Most recently, Lucas created and presented the office's 2010 report on county deaths, and he handled the office's investigation of the death of Rebecca Zahau in Coronado, a case that made national news, Wagner said.

Wagner said a panel of county officials, which included representatives from the district attorney's office, Human Resources Department, Sheriff's Department and a public safety group, voted unanimously to promote Lucas."

http://m.nctimes.com/mobile/article_...8e560211e.html

justice be served
10-24-2012, 09:57 PM
Since many on posting on these threads have speculated that Dr. Jon Juca was "paid off" for leaving out details in RZ's autopsy by receiving a promotion, here's a little blurb about that promotion:


"Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Glenn Wagner said there was "uniform excitement" among county officials about Lucas' promotion, probably because Lucas reflects officials' perceptions of what the office should do and be ---- from how he presents himself to how he conveys his analytical thought process to authorities and the public.

"Of all of my folks, possibly excluding myself, Jon has had the most experience in all of that, and he is a known quantity," Wagner said. "I'm quite comfortable and happy to have him as my No. 2."

Wagner said Lucas has proved his professional mettle during 10 years as a deputy medical examiner for the office. Most recently, Lucas created and presented the office's 2010 report on county deaths, and he handled the office's investigation of the death of Rebecca Zahau in Coronado, a case that made national news, Wagner said.

Wagner said a panel of county officials, which included representatives from the district attorney's office, Human Resources Department, Sheriff's Department and a public safety group, voted unanimously to promote Lucas."

http://m.nctimes.com/mobile/article_...8e560211e.html

The Peter Principle is alive and well. It probably doesn't hurt to be a yes-man as well.

K_Z
10-24-2012, 10:48 PM
Since many on posting on these threads have speculated that Dr. Jon Juca was "paid off" for leaving out details in RZ's autopsy by receiving a promotion....

http://m.nctimes.com/mobile/article_...8e560211e.html

Well, that is news to me! I never thought Dr. Lucas (the ME) was "paid off" to do anything.

My only criticism over the past year or so is that I feel his documentation onthese 2 cases is ....rather...shall we say, "minimalist."

I wouldn't exactly describe some of the documentation in his autopsy reports on MS and RZ as "thorough".

And I offer that criticism as a professional who has multiple experiences as a paid consultant and expert witness. But no, I am not an ME, of course. Advanced practice nurses have much higher standards for documentation.

CuriousGeorgia
11-15-2012, 09:03 PM
Cyril Wecht, whom you seem to put great store in, said that he thought the ME did a very excellent job in Rebecca's case. He just disagreed with the findings - for the publicity.

MyBelle
11-16-2012, 09:42 AM
Well, that is news to me! I never thought Dr. Lucas (the ME) was "paid off" to do anything.

My only criticism over the past year or so is that I feel his documentation onthese 2 cases is ....rather...shall we say, "minimalist."

I wouldn't exactly describe some of the documentation in his autopsy reports on MS and RZ as "thorough".

And I offer that criticism as a professional who has multiple experiences as a paid consultant and expert witness. But no, I am not an ME, of course. Advanced practice nurses have much higher standards for documentation.

With all due respect, even the most advanced nurses are not experts in pathology, which is a sub-specialty of surgery. There apparently was enough documentation in both of the cases that other board-certified pathologists disagreed with the ME's findings. JMO

time
11-16-2012, 10:13 AM
Cyril Wecht, whom you seem to put great store in, said that he thought the ME did a very excellent job in Rebecca's case. He just disagreed with the findings - for the publicity.

So, you are saying Wecht gave different Manner of Death than the ME just for the publicity? :floorlaugh:

Inparadise
11-16-2012, 10:40 AM
So, you are saying Wecht gave different Manner of Death than the ME just for the publicity? :floorlaugh:

Perhaps Curious Georgia is a close confidant of Dr. Wecht, and he told her himself that he did it just for the publicity?

time
11-16-2012, 02:41 PM
Perhaps Curious Georgia is a close confidant of Dr. Wecht, and he told her himself that he did it just for the publicity?

Yeah, huh? :waitasec:

Well, I think Curious Georgia need to provide a link!! But, it's a weak claim to try and discredit Wecht on this one. The other pathologist is the one who discredited herself by going beyond the data and beyond her role as a pathologist. Wecht never tried to claim who killed Rebecca did he?

bourne
11-16-2012, 08:27 PM
Yeah, huh? :waitasec:

Well, I think Curious Georgia need to provide a link!! But, it's a weak claim to try and discredit Wecht on this one. The other pathologist is the one who discredited herself by going beyond the data and beyond her role as a pathologist. Wecht never tried to claim who killed Rebecca did he?

Wecht also only stated that he believed Rebecca's case should be ruled "undetermined", not outright homicide as Melinek did without foundation or cause or evidence. In addition, he rightly only stated he "leaned towards foul play" without mentioning any specific suspects as those would be up to the investigators to pursue, not a pathologist.

justice be served
11-16-2012, 11:23 PM
Wecht also only stated that he believed Rebecca's case should be ruled "undetermined", not outright homicide as Melinek did without foundation or cause or evidence. In addition, he rightly only stated he "leaned towards foul play" without mentioning any specific suspects as those would be up to the investigators to pursue, not a pathologist.

I am going to take a wild guess that this has not been Dr. Melinek's shining moment in her career. And one that she probably wishes she had not been roped into regardless of what she was paid.

Inparadise
11-16-2012, 11:53 PM
I am going to take a wild guess that this has not been Dr. Melinek's shining moment in her career. And one that she probably wishes she had not been roped into regardless of what she was paid.

IMO, the entire "assault scenario" proposed by Dr. Melinek was just as unrealistic as SDSO's "rope tying" dog and pony show.

K_Z
11-17-2012, 02:02 PM
I am going to take a wild guess that this has not been Dr. Melinek's shining moment in her career. And one that she probably wishes she had not been roped into regardless of what she was paid.

I agree-- this is not her career strength, or bright shining moment. I will put the rest of my comment in the "Dina's Experts" thread, so as not to derail this one.

time
11-17-2012, 02:43 PM
Wecht also only stated that he believed Rebecca's case should be ruled "undetermined", not outright homicide as Melinek did without foundation or cause or evidence. In addition, he rightly only stated he "leaned towards foul play" without mentioning any specific suspects as those would be up to the investigators to pursue, not a pathologist.

Yes! And, I agree with others, this whole affair was not Melinek's shining moment. I have to wonder if she was ever intended to testify at any trial, criminal or civil. Bet not.

MyBelle
11-17-2012, 06:41 PM
Yes! And, I agree with others, this whole affair was not Melinek's shining moment. I have to wonder if she was ever intended to testify at any trial, criminal or civil. Bet not.

Prosecutors in Cali, including the State's top law enforcement officer, apparently don't share your concerns about Dr. Melinek's qualifications:

Past clients include the Santa Clara County District Attorney, Office of the County Counsel County of Contra Costa, Marin County Public Defender, the Court Appointed Attorney Program of the Alameda County Bar Association, the Attorney General of the State of California, and private civil plaintiff's and defense attorneys.

http://www.pathologyexpert.com/drmelinek.htm

JMO

inthedark14
11-17-2012, 09:30 PM
Prosecutors in Cali, including the State's top law enforcement officer, apparently don't share your concerns about Dr. Melinek's qualifications:

Past clients include the Santa Clara County District Attorney, Office of the County Counsel County of Contra Costa, Marin County Public Defender, the Court Appointed Attorney Program of the Alameda County Bar Association, the Attorney General of the State of California, and private civil plaintiff's and defense attorneys.

http://www.pathologyexpert.com/drmelinek.htm

JMO

I would guess this to be true, in most states, operating on a government budget that they would use the closest "expert" as to save on travel expenses and whatnot. As we have heard before in regard to this case the tax payers shouldn't have to pay more for expert advice, or any advice, if you go back to prior posts...

One can assume that since the counties listed above are all around San Francisco perhaps it's a monetary reason why this particular doctor was chosen. All for the cost savings to the tax payer of course.

Do all assistant ME doctors work as consultants? Is this normal? How often do ME docs consult in their own area as opposed to forensic pathologists being brought in for an expert opinion?

*Lash*
11-19-2012, 09:33 AM
I believe people commit suicide in unusual ways all the time. In my opinion, a suicidal person is already not quite thinking straight and their mind is tormented. I believe because of this, unusual suicides happen. Who really knows what a suicidal person is actually thinking at the time they take their life. How much sanity is included in their thoughts cannot be known. Most likely, their thought process is not sane. As unusual as Rebecca's death was, I don't find it hard to believe a person may commit suicide in a similar manner. I don't question a suicide could happen like this. I question the story we have been told, the lack of evidence, missing pieces, pieces that don't add up and the poor investigation to support the conclusion Rebecca's death was a suicide.

MyBelle
11-19-2012, 11:13 AM
I would guess this to be true, in most states, operating on a government budget that they would use the closest "expert" as to save on travel expenses and whatnot. As we have heard before in regard to this case the tax payers shouldn't have to pay more for expert advice, or any advice, if you go back to prior posts...

One can assume that since the counties listed above are all around San Francisco perhaps it's a monetary reason why this particular doctor was chosen. All for the cost savings to the tax payer of course.

Do all assistant ME doctors work as consultants? Is this normal? How often do ME docs consult in their own area as opposed to forensic pathologists being brought in for an expert opinion?

I've yet to see any prosecutor choose an expert witness based on price alone. afaik, none work for free.

JMO

MyBelle
11-19-2012, 11:17 AM
I believe people commit suicide in unusual ways all the time. In my opinion, a suicidal person is already not quite thinking straight and their mind is tormented. I believe because of this, unusual suicides happen. Who really knows what a suicidal person is actually thinking at the time they take their life. How much sanity is included in their thoughts cannot be known. Most likely, their thought process is not sane. As unusual as Rebecca's death was, I don't find it hard to believe a person may commit suicide in a similar manner. I don't question a suicide could happen like this. I question the story we have been told, the lack of evidence, missing pieces, pieces that don't add up and the poor investigation to support the conclusion Rebecca's death was a suicide.

In a suicide, I wouldn't expert there to be a lot of evidence of a homicide. I don't agree that RZ's death investigation was a "poor" one. It involved many agencies working together.

JMO

greenpalm
11-22-2012, 10:28 PM
I believe people commit suicide in unusual ways all the time. In my opinion, a suicidal person is already not quite thinking straight and their mind is tormented. I believe because of this, unusual suicides happen. Who really knows what a suicidal person is actually thinking at the time they take their life. How much sanity is included in their thoughts cannot be known. Most likely, their thought process is not sane. As unusual as Rebecca's death was, I don't find it hard to believe a person may commit suicide in a similar manner. I don't question a suicide could happen like this. I question the story we have been told, the lack of evidence, missing pieces, pieces that don't add up and the poor investigation to support the conclusion Rebecca's death was a suicide.

I agree. It's not a question of a suicide like this one being plausible. It's simply that the SDSO investigation was full of holes, and left many questions unanswered. one example would be that given the weight of the bed, and Rebecca's weight, the bed didn't slide far enough.

Also, if she pre measured the rope before she cut it, then why was there only one set of foot prints in the dust on the balcony? If she draped the rope over to measure it before she cut it, she would have needed to go out there twice. Once to measure, then, a second time after her feet were bound, to actually make the jump.

And, why would she paint the note in third person?

bourne
11-23-2012, 01:33 PM
I agree. It's not a question of a suicide like this one being plausible. It's simply that the SDSO investigation was full of holes, and left many questions unanswered. one example would be that given the weight of the bed, and Rebecca's weight, the bed didn't slide far enough.

Also, if she pre measured the rope before she cut it, then why was there only one set of foot prints in the dust on the balcony? If she draped the rope over to measure it before she cut it, she would have needed to go out there twice. Once to measure, then, a second time after her feet were bound, to actually make the jump.

And, why would she paint the note in third person?

I concur. It's not whether people who are suicidal are incapable of going to extremes to kill themselves, but that the physical evidence and Rebecca's psychological profile in this specific case directly contradict the suicide ruling.

MyBelle
11-24-2012, 12:54 AM
I agree. It's not a question of a suicide like this one being plausible. It's simply that the SDSO investigation was full of holes, and left many questions unanswered. one example would be that given the weight of the bed, and Rebecca's weight, the bed didn't slide far enough.

Also, if she pre measured the rope before she cut it, then why was there only one set of foot prints in the dust on the balcony? If she draped the rope over to measure it before she cut it, she would have needed to go out there twice. Once to measure, then, a second time after her feet were bound, to actually make the jump.

And, why would she paint the note in third person?

Where do you get that she pre-measured the rope? She may have just estimated it visually or stepped-off the distance from the bed to the door leading to the balcony and then double it. She didn't need to go onto the balcony at all to determine length of rope needed.

Why she painted the door message in third person is known only to RZ. Perhaps she felt herself a third wheel when it came to JS's relationship with Max. Perhaps she wanted to blame JS rather than herself. Her sister has said RZ did not view herself as responsible for Max's accident. That's not a reaction one would expect from an adult who supposedly loved the child.

JMO

minazoe
12-10-2012, 12:59 PM
if indeed RN was told that night that she had to move out or leave, I can feel her suicide,

here's what I think if this indeed happened.

she went from hero to zero

there is something hinky in the death of Max...and this girl went from being the family prize, with a billionaire for a potential husband, to a shamed and discarded person with no power, no legal rights and only the clothes on her back, which sound like basically just bikini's.

I think it's very possible that she was involved in the death of Max. Some women are not how we perceive them behind closed doors... a very active child like Max can be extremely annoying, especially when it's not your kid.

I think she may have stood on the edge of the chair and kicked it backwards behind her,
possibly just having a shoulder or part of her knee actually touch the rail.

at any rate, has anyone found any bondage like this in any movies like the housemaid?

I think there is chance that she liked this film genre...and I think she killed herself out of
anger and humiliation in front of her family, losing her worth by losing her man. I don't think she was focused on Max, only focused on trying to retain her tenure in the household.

I still think the police know something, and that it may not be the first time RN has tied herself up or been tied up.

minazoe
12-10-2012, 02:27 PM
has anyone seen this?

http://www.cbs8.com/story/16083634/zahau-attorney-bondage-porn-found-on-coronado-mansion-computer

sorta bingo.

time
12-10-2012, 03:44 PM
has anyone seen this?

http://www.cbs8.com/story/16083634/zahau-attorney-bondage-porn-found-on-coronado-mansion-computer

sorta bingo.


We've talked about his a lot here already. No idea what 'sorta bingo" means. I do not believe Rebecca was watching this on Tuesday. She was also gone a lot that day and the porn was accessed via SW Airline account (somehow).

bourne
12-10-2012, 04:15 PM
I responded to a poster above but I decided my reply is best suited for the topic, "The case for murder" so I have cut & pasted it there along with the poster's original comments.

Inparadise
12-10-2012, 04:22 PM
Not sure what you mean by she went from "hero to zero"?

Becky was a humble modest woman who also spoke her mind and expressed her feelings -- negative and positive ones -- in healthy, constructive ways. She was a healthy young vibrant woman who loved life and her family, especially her sisters. Mary was her best friend.

I don't believe for one second that Becky was a melodrama queen who inflated her own ego and thought she was flawless and perfect, as you have insinuated here. The only person who seems to characterize herself that way is Dina, who described herself as a "statuesque", brilliant, renaissance goddess/perfect mother to Max to the author of the "Boy Interrupted" article. The only person who flies off the handle in a violent rage is Dina. The only one who drinks to oblivion and cannot wake up when the cops are pounding at her door to alert her of her beloved child's critical accident is Dina.

Let's not get carried away with Dina's projections onto an innocent, beautiful young woman of 32 like Becky.

If anyone is a melodrama queen, it's Dina who from all the evidence we have, is the prime suspect in Becky's murder. Dina must have felt like -- as you say -- a big ZERO -- because she lost not only Jonah to Becky, but also Max and the wealth, status and power that accompanied the life she had once lived with Jonah. That in and of itself is motive for Dina to want Becky dead.

Vengeance, hatred, jealousy, bitterness, plus drunken stupors were all Dina's motives. Couple those vices with losing the loves of her life Jonah AND Max and the "good life of money, status, and power", and we have the making of the perfect storm for a murderer.

Bourne, I couldn't have said it better myself!!!!!!!

MyBelle
12-11-2012, 11:14 AM
if indeed RN was told that night that she had to move out or leave, I can feel her suicide,

here's what I think if this indeed happened.

she went from hero to zero

there is something hinky in the death of Max...and this girl went from being the family prize, with a billionaire for a potential husband, to a shamed and discarded person with no power, no legal rights and only the clothes on her back, which sound like basically just bikini's.

I think it's very possible that she was involved in the death of Max. Some women are not how we perceive them behind closed doors... a very active child like Max can be extremely annoying, especially when it's not your kid.

I think she may have stood on the edge of the chair and kicked it backwards behind her,
possibly just having a shoulder or part of her knee actually touch the rail.

at any rate, has anyone found any bondage like this in any movies like the housemaid?

I think there is chance that she liked this film genre...and I think she killed herself out of
anger and humiliation in front of her family, losing her worth by losing her man. I don't think she was focused on Max, only focused on trying to retain her tenure in the household.

I still think the police know something, and that it may not be the first time RN has tied herself up or been tied up.

I agree with your theory. Her tenure in the household was broken permanently. Whether she was directly responsible for Max's injuries or not, it happened while she was responsible for his safety and any parent would have a difficult--if not impossible--time trying not to blame her from the very beginning.

I think RZ played her own version of the blame game and accessed the porn with a Southwest credit card to make it appear that it was Jonah doing the browzing. She then staged her suicide. A very troubled young woman she was.

JMO