View Full Version : Livor mortis and time of death
IWannaKnow
09-21-2011, 12:37 PM
Livor mortis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:%D0%9F%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%82%D1%80%D 1%83%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/%D0%9F%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83% D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5.jpg/220px-%D0%9F%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83% D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/3/3e/%D0%9F%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83% D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5.jpg/220px-%D0%9F%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83% D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5.jpg
Livor mortis (Latin: livor—"bluish color," mortis—"of death"), postmortem lividity (Latin: postmortem—"after death", lividity—"black and blue"), or hypostasis (Greek: "sediment") is one of the signs of death. Livor mortis is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin: when the heart is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. This discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, as the capillaries are compressed.
Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6-12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body.
Stages of death:
Death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Skullclose.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Skullclose.jpg/250px-Skullclose.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/9/92/Skullclose.jpg/250px-Skullclose.jpg
Pallor mortis - paleness occuring 15–120 minutes after the death
Algor mortis - reduction in body temperature following death.
Livor mortis - 20 min to three hours after death, max within 6-12 hours. Heat will speed the process. The settling of blood to the lowest portion of the body.
Rigor mortis - commences after about 3 hours, reaches maximum stiffness after 12 hours, and gradually dissipates until approximately 72 hours (3 days) after death.
Putrefaction - 2 to 3 days to 4 weeks
Decomposition - speed varies greatly
Skeletonization - speed varies greatly
The EMT's noted rigor in her jaw at 6:48 am and therefore did not perform CPR.
http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/time-death
BBM
Rigor mortis, or postmortem stiffening and contraction of all muscles, usually occurs three or more hours after death and can last for approximately 36–48 hours in temperate climates and about 9–12 hours in tropical temperatures. If a murderer moves a body before rigor mortis (RM), the new position will be "frozen" during RM, not the original one that would have characterized the pattern of the body falling at the crime scene. Therefore, the position a body shows during rigor mortis cannot be assumed as the position in which the victim was at the moment of death. The rigor mortis phase is not the best time for the pathologist to determine the cause of death, because several changes take place in the internal muscles, such as the heart and the ocular muscles, which can be misleading. For example, rigor mortis dilates the myocardial (heart) muscles, giving it the appearance of cardiac hypertrophy (enlarged heart). Contraction of the iris muscles also dilates the pupils during rigor mortis.
The factors that interfere with the onset and duration of rigor mortis are temperature, existing antemortem pathologies, age, body muscular mass, and the degree of muscular activity immediately before death. Higher temperatures shorten the time till the onset of rigor mortis and its time of duration. A strong fight or lengthy physical effort before death causes an earlier onset and shorter duration of rigor mortis. Children and older adults have also earlier rigor mortis than younger adults. Generalized infections, or long, debilitating diseases also produce earlier onsets and shorter periods of rigor mortis, whereas extensive antemortem bleeding or death due to asphyxia delays rigor mortis onset.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbYjA3YzY2MTItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDg tMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en
page 4 -
At 2000 hours rigor mortis was marked in the upper and lower extremities, neck and jaw. Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed. Both rigor and livor mortis were appropriate for the decedent's position. There was cutis anserina of the legs. There was skin slip with pressure on the lower left eyelid.
Cutis anserina: goose bumps caused by cold or excitement after death
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=23&gs_id=21&xhr=t&q=cutis+anserina+forensic&pq=cutis+anserina&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=cutis+anserina+forensic&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e3c9ab126908b784&biw=1079&bih=563
Thank you so much for the information ... here is some on liver temperature.
http://www.trutv.com/shows/forensic_files/techniques/tod.html
The organs most commonly used to determine the body core temperature are the liver and the brain, because of their mass and density. After death, the body temperature falls toward the temperature of the surroundings at a rate of about one-and-a-half degrees per hour. This rate will vary depending on the amount of body fat, the amount of blood loss, the amount of type of clothing worn by the victim, the location of the body (whether it was lying near a heating or air conditioning vent or inside a cooler), and, if the body was found outdoors, on the weather conditions, including air temperature, wind, and precipitation (rain or snow).
Had they checked this immediately it seems they could have been fairly accurate on TOD.
IWannaKnow
09-21-2011, 05:41 PM
Since the above link states that an extreme, physical altercation before death will speed rigor, and livor is variable for a period of time, I wonder if the posterior livor mortis really means anything except that she laid in the courtyard for 12 hours?
steff13
09-21-2011, 05:47 PM
Unfortunately, I don't know if there is any way to know, since she laid in the courtyard for 12 hours.
Since the above link states that an extreme, physical altercation before death will speed rigor, and livor is variable for a period of time, I wonder if the posterior livor mortis really means anything except that she laid in the courtyard for 12 hours?
It's funny you said that because I was just looking at another case about similar questions.
I don't know how the variables actually effect TOD and therefore rigor, etc. I wonder if there is a table or somewhere with info. ME's must use something to adjust the TOD and deter if, like in this case, something can even be determined or is meaningful.
I think for all they know she could have died between 10 pm and 6 am! Maybe I am wrong
jjenny
09-21-2011, 08:07 PM
Thank you so much for the information ... here is some on liver temperature.
http://www.trutv.com/shows/forensic_files/techniques/tod.html
Had they checked this immediately it seems they could have been fairly accurate on TOD.
But we all know they didn't. When she lay there for so long, i was concerned even back then they weren't going to be able to accurately determine the time of death.
greenpalm
09-22-2011, 05:25 AM
Well, gosh, on CSI, (you know how accurate TV shows are) the ME usually takes a liver temp immediately upon arriving at the scene of a death. The actually autopsy is later, but the ME does an initial on scene investigation. Surely they at least checked her liver temp.
TOD is nearly always a window, not a pinpoint, but the more recent the death, the more accurate.
steff13
09-22-2011, 07:32 AM
Well, gosh, on CSI, (you know how accurate TV shows are) the ME usually takes a liver temp immediately upon arriving at the scene of a death. The actually autopsy is later, but the ME does an initial on scene investigation. Surely they at least checked her liver temp.
TOD is nearly always a window, not a pinpoint, but the more recent the death, the more accurate.
1. I have that duck tape and LOVE it. I have a 1-year-old daughter, and it is all over her stuff. :crazy:
2. I don't watch CSI, but I have seen them take liver temperature right away on other shows like Forensic Files, etc. Of course, if the ME hadn't let her lay there for twelve hours, he might have been able to make a better determination. Is there a reason why it took him so long to get there? The EMTs who arrived on the scene determined she was dead, why didn't he come shortly after that? Even if he couldn't move her right away, he could have done a preliminary investigation.
IWannaKnow
09-22-2011, 09:58 AM
http://www.10news.com/news/29253139/detail.html
Attorney Obtains New Info In Zahau Death Case
Anne Bremner Represents Rebecca Zahau's Family, Claims New Information Could Help Re-Open Probe
POSTED: 5:28 am PDT September 21, 2011
UPDATED: 11:37 pm PDT September 21, 2011
On Wednesday, Bremmer said a witness provided her with new information -- which has not been confirmed -- that indicates Zahau died before midnight, contradicting facts released by the sheriff's department.
steff13
09-22-2011, 10:14 AM
This new information is potentially huge, obviously. I wonder who this witness is?
If I recall correctly, the last text Rebecca sent was before 10pm, and the last voice contact anyone had with her (her sister) was prior to that. She could very well have been dead by 10, if this new information is to be believed.
IWannaKnow
09-28-2011, 11:03 AM
http://medicinembbs.blogspot.com/2011/08/post-mortem-changes.html
POST-MORTEM CHANGES
A body left suspended after hanging will develop deep hypostasis of the lower legs and arms, with none visible on the torso, whereas a body that has partially fallen head first out of bed will have the most prominent hypostatic changes of the head and upper chest.the drowning body has different pm lividity.
http://medicinembbs.blogspot.com/2011/08/asphyxial-deaths.html
justice be served
09-28-2011, 03:00 PM
Hopefully this comment is appropo to this particular thread. IMO it defies logic that the ME waited until late in the day to come to the scene. This was a major, major high profile case which I would think would be prioritized on the list of scenes to investigate that day. I would also think the delay substantially contributed to their ability to have accurate findings. Which brings me to three questions:
1-How many cases did the ME office need to visit on that particular day?
2-What caused their delay on such a high profile case? Why wasn't it a priority?
3-Was the ME office influenced by someone/some entity to delay their response?
Does anyone have a way of determining the answer to number 1?
Does anyone have a theory on number 2 and number 3?
Pacific2011
09-29-2011, 11:00 AM
Hopefully this comment is appropo to this particular thread. IMO it defies logic that the ME waited until late in the day to come to the scene. This was a major, major high profile case which I would think would be prioritized on the list of scenes to investigate that day. I would also think the delay substantially contributed to their ability to have accurate findings. Which brings me to three questions:
1-How many cases did the ME office need to visit on that particular day?
2-What caused their delay on such a high profile case? Why wasn't it a priority?
3-Was the ME office influenced by someone/some entity to delay their response?
Does anyone have a way of determining the answer to number 1?
Does anyone have a theory on number 2 and number 3?
My theories are that:
The investigation into Rebecca's death became a non-priority, meaning that it was deliberately moved to the "bottom of the list" by top LE authorities involved, and thereby influenced the judges who were so "busy" that day they couldn't be reached to issue a SW until late afternoon (even though Max's accident at the same house had been in the national news a few days before) and
The influence came from people representing JS - i.e., perhaps his PR firm.
MOO.
I think your good questions could also be posted on another, more general thread, e.g., "What Happened to Rebecca Zahau," which seems to be accessed more frequently than this one.
IWannaKnow
09-29-2011, 11:29 AM
Interesting article written by Dr. Lucas:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1765532-overview#a1
KariKae
09-29-2011, 12:45 PM
I can see how her case was pushed to the bottom of the priority list initially. This case was originally reported as a suicide. I think the ME's office would respond to obvious homocides (i.e. shootings, etc.) before a suicide.
Once an officer reported a suspicion of homocide, RZ was probably moved up on the priority list. We don't know if the homocide team had to finish processing a previous crime scene before arriving at the Shacknai house. Or if they had to call in and assemble a new team.
IWannaKnow
09-29-2011, 01:22 PM
I can see how her case was pushed to the bottom of the priority list initially. This case was originally reported as a suicide. I think the ME's office would respond to obvious homocides (i.e. shootings, etc.) before a suicide.
Once an officer reported a suspicion of homocide, RZ was probably moved up on the priority list. We don't know if the homocide team had to finish processing a previous crime scene before arriving at the Shacknai house. Or if they had to call in and assemble a new team.
Hi KariKae. Welcome to Rebecca's forum. :seeya:
I can see why you would think that, but that isn't the way it happened. They knew it was a possible homicide by 8:39 am.
From SW 41227, page 3, BBM:
On July 13th, 2011, at about 0839 hours I attended a briefing at the SDSO headquarters. During this briefing Homicide Sergeant Nemeth briefed the SDSO Homicide unit regarding a possible homicide in the city of Coronado. The incident occured at 1043 Ocean Boulevard, Coronado, in the county of San Diego, State of California and the Coronado Police Department was requesting our assistance with the investigation.
MyBelle
09-29-2011, 01:42 PM
My theories are that:
The investigation into Rebecca's death became a non-priority, meaning that it was deliberately moved to the "bottom of the list" by top LE authorities involved, and thereby influenced the judges who were so "busy" that day they couldn't be reached to issue a SW until late afternoon (even though Max's accident at the same house had been in the national news a few days before) and
The influence came from people representing JS - i.e., perhaps his PR firm.
MOO.
I think your good questions could also be posted on another, more general thread, e.g., "What Happened to Rebecca Zahau," which seems to be accessed more frequently than this one.
I think in reality if a PR agency influenced Judges and multiple law enforcement agencies in a homicide investigation, that would be grounds for the AG to order an investigation. Yet, even though the family attorney has repeatedly said for nearly a month that she's going to make a formal request, no request for such an investigation has been made.
JMO
SunnieRN
09-29-2011, 03:17 PM
http://www.10news.com/news/29253139/detail.html
Attorney Obtains New Info In Zahau Death Case
Anne Bremner Represents Rebecca Zahau's Family, Claims New Information Could Help Re-Open Probe
POSTED: 5:28 am PDT September 21, 2011
UPDATED: 11:37 pm PDT September 21, 2011
Thank you for posting this here, IWannaKnow, as I truly believe that this is a crucial part of the case!
As for the AG, Jonah asked for a review of the investigation. The AG said 'no', that she wouldn't review the investigation, correct?
elfie
09-30-2011, 02:48 PM
Hopefully this comment is appropo to this particular thread. IMO it defies logic that the ME waited until late in the day to come to the scene. This was a major, major high profile case which I would think would be prioritized on the list of scenes to investigate that day. I would also think the delay substantially contributed to their ability to have accurate findings. Which brings me to three questions:
1-How many cases did the ME office need to visit on that particular day?
2-What caused their delay on such a high profile case? Why wasn't it a priority?
3-Was the ME office influenced by someone/some entity to delay their response?
Does anyone have a way of determining the answer to number 1?
Does anyone have a theory on number 2 and number 3?
Besides letting her lie there in the elements with no tent and no privacy this is just one more irritating and mind boggling aspects of the investigation! HOW could this be the case? I can't imagine the ME not being there within the hour!
jjenny
09-30-2011, 03:52 PM
Thank you for posting this here, IWannaKnow, as I truly believe that this is a crucial part of the case!
As for the AG, Jonah asked for a review of the investigation. The AG said 'no', that she wouldn't review the investigation, correct?
According to RZ's family lawyer, it's because JS said he was fully satisfied with the investigation. There was no reason for AG to agree to review the investigation, since JS didn't allege any misconduct by the police during their investigation.
SunnieRN
09-30-2011, 07:00 PM
According to RZ's family lawyer, it's because JS said he was fully satisfied with the investigation. There was no reason for AG to agree to review the investigation, since JS didn't allege any misconduct by the police during their investigation.
Well, maybe I am too suspicious by nature, but if I lost my son and live in significant other, within a 2 day span, I would not be satisfied, as long as there were members of my family, her family or lawyers, still feeling unsatisfied.
Maybe he is in a better place mentally than most people, or maybe things were discussed with him step by step and evidence presented that Rebecca's family knows nothing about. Maybe there are questions that he does not want answers to.
Either way, I can not understand his 'satisfaction'.
IWannaKnow
10-06-2011, 10:29 AM
This is a good article found by a poster on the Patch:
http://www.farmfreshforensics.com/csi_blog/view/198/forensic_lesson_of_the_day__post_mortem_lividity
SunnieRN
10-06-2011, 01:50 PM
This is a good article found by a poster on the Patch:
http://www.farmfreshforensics.com/csi_blog/view/198/forensic_lesson_of_the_day__post_mortem_lividity
From the article you posted:
snip -
When you die, your heart stops pumping blood, so blood stops moving around your body. Slowly, it begins to settle to the lowest parts. So if you die laying face-up in your bed, your blood will settle in your back, the back of your arms, the back of your legs, etc. If you hang yourself, the blood will settle in your feet (except for the blood that's trapped in your head by the rope you're hanging from). Then you can end up with an eggplant-colored face. (I know . . . say it together, class, "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww!")
A fixed lividity pattern is a wonderful way for a quick check on whether or not your body has been moved. For instance, let's say you died face-down in bed. The blood will settle where? Yes! In your tummy and the fronts of your legs and arms and your face! Again, we're talking about the possibility of an eggplant-face here. I know . . . get it out of your system. "Ewwwwwwwwwww!"
And let's say, you're lying there, (minding your own business) when someone finds you. They freak out. (People do that when they find dead people.) Then they call 911. Now you've been lying there, dead, for a while. You've got an eggplant-face, but the 911 dispatcher will often still tell the person to put you on a hard surface, (i.e., the floor) and turn you face-up to do CPR. (Important note: CPR doesn't work on people who have been dead so long they have an eggplant-face.)
From the article you posted:
snip -
When you die, your heart stops pumping blood, so blood stops moving around your body. Slowly, it begins to settle to the lowest parts. So if you die laying face-up in your bed, your blood will settle in your back, the back of your arms, the back of your legs, etc. If you hang yourself, the blood will settle in your feet (except for the blood that's trapped in your head by the rope you're hanging from). Then you can end up with an eggplant-colored face. (I know . . . say it together, class, "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww!")
A fixed lividity pattern is a wonderful way for a quick check on whether or not your body has been moved. For instance, let's say you died face-down in bed. The blood will settle where? Yes! In your tummy and the fronts of your legs and arms and your face! Again, we're talking about the possibility of an eggplant-face here. I know . . . get it out of your system. "Ewwwwwwwwwww!"
And let's say, you're lying there, (minding your own business) when someone finds you. They freak out. (People do that when they find dead people.) Then they call 911. Now you've been lying there, dead, for a while. You've got an eggplant-face, but the 911 dispatcher will often still tell the person to put you on a hard surface, (i.e., the floor) and turn you face-up to do CPR. (Important note: CPR doesn't work on people who have been dead so long they have an eggplant-face.)
Possibly the only good thing about Rebecca being naked is that the first responders may have noted how she looked? I can't believe no one made note of coloration until the 12 hours went by.
Callie
10-06-2011, 09:21 PM
I posted this in the thread: Cover Her Face:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150062&page=2
There must be some sort of guidelines, rules or regulations concerning
coroners/medical examiners.
I've been looking on the web trying to find out about how soon a coroner/medical examiner should arrive on the scene of a suspicious death and if it would make a difference in being able to accurately calculate time of death.
I did find this and a couple others I didn't link to as they basically said about the same thing, but maybe some of you can find even better sites.
http://jessaminecountycoroner.com/The_Coroner_s_Call.html
Since in most cases the body of the deceased cannot be moved or repositioned until the coroner arrives,
Thanks a bunch, Adam, You #%@*&^%#
it is imperative to arrive at the scene as quickly as possible.
So let's see, AS calls 911 at 6:48 AM. I would think the detectives would have called the ME within an hour there a bouts. Oh, lets give the detectives and hour after being called to the scene by Fire Department / EMT . I might be being a little to generous here. That brings it to 8:45 AM but the ME doesn't arrive until what 8: PM?
That's over 11 hours!
So now we don't know for sure about the blood pooling because it was pretty well set by then.
I'm interested in your question also, but can't find the answer. I research one California case where the TOD was not even medically set even though the body was found within hours of a murder. In that case, a deputy coroner arrived about 5 hours after police. His report was so minimal it was pathetic. So I am thinking there are not many rules about all of this.
I've been looking on the web trying to find out about how soon a
coroner/medical examiner should arrive on the scene of a suspicious
death and if it would make a difference in being able to accurately calculate time of death.
This doesn't answer your question but here is some of the California Code regarding Coroners
http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/me/families/theprocess.html
Under California law the Medical Examiner is both required and empowered
to determine the cause and circumstance of certain deaths. For
additional details, see Government Code Section 27491 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=gov&group=27001-28000&file=27490-27512) and the Health and Safety Code 102850 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=102001-103000&file=102850-102870).
In general, deaths of a sudden and unexpected nature are investigated.
All deaths related to any type of injury or intoxication must be
investigated by our office. Government Code 27491 (http://law.onecle.com/california/government/27491.5.html)
The coroner shall not finally exclude crime, suicide, or accident as a cause of death because of lack of evidence.http://law.onecle.com/california/government/27491.html
Callie
10-09-2011, 03:18 PM
Thanks, time. I also saw on one of the sites, sorry can't remember, but that there is or suppose to be a 'qualified' ME there 24/7
Got to read your links yet, but I've just got to get off this dang 'puter for at least a few and do some housework.:frown:
I'll check them out soon and get back to you
Callie
10-10-2011, 05:08 AM
Hi time, Thanks again for those links. The one on CA law is very informative on everything. I've been wanting to find info on legislative and judicial powers and how it all works. Lots to read that's for sure. Anyway, the ME should arrive as soon as possible and not several hours
later. Out of common decency if for no other reason.
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